From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 00:49:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:49:07 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 4:27 PM, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Okay, so out of curiosity I found the listing for the Decmate on eBay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5180062401&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Now, this is a pretty cool looking critter. Very 1980s... > Please bear in mind that I'm essentially an 8-bit micro guy... > However, the Decmate has a number of appealing qualities: > > Small size -- will fit in my HideOut (computer room) > "Somewhat" PDP-8 compatible -- a whole new world for me > Affordable -- even with shipping it's within my budget > Attractive appearance -- looks like a computer my wife can relate to > instead of some gargantuan refugee from a '50s sci-fi movie It is smaller and cheaper than, say, a PDP-8/e... > On the other hand, I have some questions (I did a little Googling and > have more to do, but I know there are folks here who can answer my > questions quickly and accurately): > > Is it a fair value at $200 plus (probably) another $200 for shipping? Others have chimed in, but let me put it this way... _I_ didn't consider a bid for it. OTOH, if one has a number of DEC machines, one can one or both of the RX02s in the pedestatl with, say, a PDP-11. They are indepenent, BTW, so one could hook one RX02 to the DECmate, and the other to a MINC-11 (same DB-25 external cable pinout). > Is technical documentation available? Yes, on bitsavers. I was just reviewing the docs for it the other day, and the schematics look complete. > What OSes will run on it? (OS/8 ?) Are they available for download? OS/278 has the necessary patches to deal with the differences in the console IOT behavior that was well described in another post. Dunno about download, but you'd have a problem with the downloaded file, since the RX02 format can _not_ be written by a PC FDC (it's a hybrid format that only the RX02 drive (and DEC-compatible 3rd-party drives/controllers) can write. > What software, languages, assemblers, etc. are available? Once one has OS/278 up, the list is the same as for OS/8. Primarily, folks wrote in FORTRAN or 12-bit MACRO, but there are a few other languages available. > How compatible is it with the PDP-8 -- ie, will it run PDP-8 software? Yes, except for the aforementioned console incompatibilities. It's not hard to tweak stuff to work with the DECmate, but stuff that does its own console IOTs _does_ need to be slightly tweaked. Much easier with the MACRO source than without. > Does it have a free serial port so I can download software onto a PC and > then serial-transfer it to the Decmate? I don't remember. If one has the communications board (DP278?), one has the spare port for sure. The only problem then is a chicken-and-the-egg problem... how to get a program into memory without already having a program that understands that protocol. The quickest answer (but not necessarily the easiest answer) is to get a bootable RX02 disk with Kermit on it. > How expandable is it? What sort of bus does it have? It is in-cabinet expandable only... the available options are more serial ports (DP-278), and an external hard disk (RL278?) I have never personally held either option. The bus is a proprietary one, that happens to fit on two slots mechanically identical to, say, an Qbus. The pinout is described in the pdfs on bitsavers. > What are the Decmate's disadvantages? Not console IOT compatible EAE not possible to attach. > Is there a better machine I should hold out for which is small and in > the same price range? DECmate IIs and DECmate IIIs are cheaper... I don't consider them if they are loaded with standard equipment and priced above about $40. It's easy to add a hard disk (ST-225, for example) to a DECmate II, making it attractive. The DM II and DM III also use 5.25" 'RX50' diskettes which *can* be read/written from a Linux/Windows/etc machne. There's also the possibility for going with an SBC6120 (http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/), but the SBC6120 is *not* cheaper (but it is smaller and more compatible) than this DECmate I. With front panel and I/O board, I have several hundred dollars in my SBC-6120, but at the moment, they are a lot rarer than even the PDP-8/S. -ethan From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 1 00:54:41 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:54:41 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! Message-ID: <200504010154.43727.> My local computer recycler is offering these on E-Bay. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5181480695&rd=1 From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 1 01:05:55 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:05:55 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! References: <0IE900AWE9ZSBF@ms-mss-05.columbus.rr.com> Message-ID: <000a01c53689$48fae9b0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike" To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:54 AM Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! > My local computer recycler is offering these on E-Bay. > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5181480695&rd=1 > > > > > Exactly what makes that system worth $999 for a starting bid? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 1 01:07:11 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:07:11 -0800 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Message-ID: <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 31 March 2005 22:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: --snip-- > OS/278 has the necessary patches to deal with the differences in the > console IOT behavior that was well described in another post. Dunno > about download, but you'd have a problem with the downloaded file, > since the RX02 format can _not_ be written by a PC FDC (it's a hybrid > format that only the RX02 drive (and DEC-compatible 3rd-party > drives/controllers) can write. I have a couple of DECMATE IIs and I use PUTR (running under DOS) to format RX50 diskettes and transfer files to the diskettes. I've also used TELEDISK to copy entire diskettes that I have downloaded and have created virtually all of the system programs on RX50 diskettes (OS/278, Word Processing, DIBOL, etc.) that run on a DECMATE II. I haven't worked with a DECMATE I since the original one I used at work many years ago - but as I recollect it is not anywhere near as flexible as a DECMATE II (which has HDD capability - which I've implimented in both my DECMATE IIs). The DECMATE I could still be a fun system to own - and if you can find DECMATE I system images, both PUTR and TELEDISK will make it easy for you to create entire copies of diskettes (TELEDISK), format (PUTR) and transfer files (PUTR). Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From javickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Apr 1 01:21:55 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:21:55 +0100 Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! In-Reply-To: <000a01c53689$48fae9b0$0500fea9@game> References: <0IE900AWE9ZSBF@ms-mss-05.columbus.rr.com> <000a01c53689$48fae9b0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401081914.020c8b50@slave> At 08:05 01/04/2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5181480695&rd=1 > >Exactly what makes that system worth $999 for a starting bid? I think that's what must be the "wow!" factor. Nearly $1K for an Apple2 is ridiculous... Now, had it been signed personally by Steve Jobs & covered in gold leaf, then maybe... Cheers, Ade. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 1 01:42:21 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:42:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ? In-Reply-To: Tom Peters "Re: 10base5 (Thick) Terminator ?" (Mar 31, 18:30) References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E81@sbs.jdfogg.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331142622.0ac477d8@localhost> <20050401001153.23d32cac.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <5.1.0.14.2.20050331182851.0c1e9e88@localhost> Message-ID: <10504010842.ZM20578@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Mar 31 2005, 18:30, Tom Peters wrote: > This is classic frozen yellow garden hose- typical yellow jacket. So not > teflon, probably. I suppose if I inspect it closely I might find the old > classifications: CMP for plenum, CMR for riser, CM for neither, right? Could be, but since we don't rate things the same way over here, Idon't actually know. Sorry! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 1 01:44:25 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:44:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: PET and the IEEE-488 interface Re: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"? In-Reply-To: Philip Pemberton "Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface Re: [OT]: CDC machines featured in "Die Hard"?" (Apr 1, 1:04) References: <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <0ba681544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <10504010844.ZM20581@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1 2005, 1:04, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I need a minimum of 10x 10-32 UNF threaded bolts (aka "machine screws"), > 3/8in length (or 1/2in) and locking washers. I have absolutely no idea what > type of washer, but I'd guess it would be the variety with internal teeth. > > Basically I just need enough 10-32 bolts to hook five of these capacitors up. > The problem being that 10-32 is a standard size in the USA, but apparently > not in the UK. Any decent fasteners supplier should have them. But if that doesn't work, ISO M5 is almost exactly the same and might be close enough to fit. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 01:49:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:49:28 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 2:07 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > The DECMATE I could still be a fun system to own - and if you can find DECMATE > I system images, both PUTR and TELEDISK will make it easy for you to create > entire copies of diskettes (TELEDISK), format (PUTR) and transfer files > (PUTR). TELEDISK and PUTR will not solve the problem that a PC can *not* write RX02-format 8" disks. They are a strange mixed-density beast that can only be written by RX02-compatible drives. RX01 disks _can_ be written by a PC with the right FDC chip, but since the DECmate I shipped with RX02s, not RX01s, its disks are RX02-format. Possibly one could build RX01 diskette images with the right contents (with twice as many diskettes) and migrate things over that way, or emulate the RX02 itself with a PC, but one can *not* just slurp and burn RX02s directly from a PC. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 01:53:14 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:53:14 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> Message-ID: On Mar 31, 2005 5:26 PM, vrs wrote: > The DECmate II is about the size of a large old fashioned PC-AT. The > DECmate III is smaller (makes a fine stand for the monitor), but has no > second drive bay, so you get just the dual floppy drive it comes with. Both > of these use 5.25" floppies in RX50 format instead of 8" floppies in RX01 > format like the DECmate I. Both come with a communications port. There is a somewhat rare option board for the DECmate II that provides an RX02 interface, but I know little about it; I've never seen one. So that board aside, the DECmate I (and VT78) use 8" floppies, and the DECmate II and DECmate III use 5.25" RX50 floppies. -ethan From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 1 02:04:28 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:04:28 +0200 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1B9E@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi all, I wanted to create more space on the floor, but I just can't seem to find a set of RL02 slides to mount the RL02 (standing on the floor) into a rack. Does anybody have a spare set for sale or trade? With regard to shipping costs I would prefer a location in Europe, but else "world" is ok! - Henk, PA8PDP. From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 01:51:24 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 02:51:24 -0500 Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! In-Reply-To: <200504010154.43727.> Message-ID: <200504010747.j317ltrE053564@dewey.classiccmp.org> If it's really as pristine as he claims, I would estimate the value of a couple hundred dollars at most. Other estimates? Mike Nadeau? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:55 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! My local computer recycler is offering these on E-Bay. http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5181480695& rd=1 From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 1 02:32:21 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 00:32:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again Message-ID: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> Well I identified the failure, fixed it, and the disk pack is formatting right now. Whew! Another crapacitor -- looks like a tantalum, but it's only .01uF, a dipped-looking bright blue axial part, about the size of a 1/8W resistor. I think these were discussed recently; not necessarily tants, but some short-lived process. Anyways, the problem cap was on the read/write amp board. The bad cap was on the -15V line. The shorted cap took out the 1-ohm, 1/4W series resistor on the logic board (very obvious once I looked at it; all the smoke what went out of it, and all the color-code bands went brown). There's only one chip (LM311) using -15, took that out, nope. Started following copper, removing caps, finally saw one blue cap that was... brown in the middle! Yup, shorted. I replaced the bad one, and all the lifted caps, with ceramic disks since I had 'em partly out anyways. Had to take the head assembly dust cover off, to get the head connectors plugged on, which mean clean-room again. Unnerving. Still running diags, but no errors so far. Man, there's hundreds of those little blue bastards in this machine. I hope future shorts are so benign. Gulp. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Fri Apr 1 04:07:14 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:07:14 +0200 (CEST) Subject: WANTED : Manuals Philips Electrologica P 350 Series Message-ID: <41569.127.0.0.1.1112350034.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Hiya, I am looking for manuals for the Philips Electrologica P 350 series systems. Its not for myself but it does has some urgency so if anyone has anything please let me know asap! Yours, Stefan. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 04:21:59 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:21:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted Message-ID: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, (eep, is a Sparc5 on topic?!) While clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has been stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5 that I'd completely forgotten about. It's been completely robbed of bits that I can see - memory, floppy drive, CD, HDD - so what's the minimum I can get away with before at least powering it up to see if it works? The only spare memory I've got is PC100 (may even be PC66) 168-pin DIMMS. Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor cable? The HDD looks like it's a standard SCA-80 connection....keyboard and mouse are there but I hope I don't need one of those foil mousemats! Assuming it does work does anyone have a floppy and CD spare for this thing? Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 1 04:57:41 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:57:41 +0200 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BA1@gd-mail03.oce.nl> I guess I have found a set! I should have asked Edward first, before turning to the List. I *knew* that Edward was also looking for a few sets, but I did not know that his search was more succesfull than mine. Since I have a few parts for Edward, I guess it will not be long before the RL02 hangs in a rack :~) - Henk, PA8PDP. > I wanted to create more space on the floor, but I > just can't seem to find a set of RL02 slides to > mount the RL02 (standing on the floor) into a rack. > Does anybody have a spare set for sale or trade? > With regard to shipping costs I would prefer a > location in Europe, but else "world" is ok! > > - Henk, PA8PDP. From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 1 05:18:39 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:18:39 +0200 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BA4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Damn, I've been fooled by Edward! Today is April 1st, and that is the day that everybody tries to fool everybody in Holland. I fell for it completely! Edward is also still looking for some RL slide sets, but he wrote that he had 10 sets ... I should have known that he was trying to fool me. I feel like a complete idiot. So, the question is valid again: who has a spare RL slide set? - Henk, PA8PDP. > I guess I have found a set! > I should have asked Edward first, before turning to the List. > I *knew* that Edward was also looking for a few sets, but I > did not know that his search was more succesfull than mine. > Since I have a few parts for Edward, I guess it will not be > long before the RL02 hangs in a rack :~) > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > > Hi all, > > > > I wanted to create more space on the floor, but I > > just can't seem to find a set of RL02 slides to > > mount the RL02 (standing on the floor) into a rack. > > Does anybody have a spare set for sale or trade? > > With regard to shipping costs I would prefer a > > location in Europe, but else "world" is ok! > > > > - Henk, PA8PDP. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 1 05:23:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:23:11 +0000 Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again In-Reply-To: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> References: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> Message-ID: <1112354591.13896.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 00:32 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: > Well I identified the failure, fixed it, and the disk pack is > formatting right now. Whew! > > Another crapacitor -- looks like a tantalum, but it's only .01uF, > a dipped-looking bright blue axial part, about the size of a 1/8W > resistor. I think these were discussed recently; not necessarily > tants, but some short-lived process. That's one thing that bugs me about old kit for which there aren't schematics around - tantalum caps often completely explode. If the value was critical for some reason, then that creates a problem! I've started taking lots of photos of any rare boards I have these days, just in case. Once a cap explodes or a resistor burns out it might be impossible to tell what the right part should be (well, without serious circuit analysis and/or guesswork) From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Apr 1 05:44:51 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:44:51 +0200 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BA4@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <000801c536b0$3709cba0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Gooijen H" Subject: RE: searching for a set of RL02 slides > Damn, I've been fooled by Edward! > Today is April 1st, and that is the day that everybody tries > to fool everybody in Holland. I fell for it completely! Not just in Holland. The most hilarious in DK in recent times, was when DDSF in Roskilde, the major bottler of spirits, announced that they had had a production error, resulting in a mix of 50% whiskey and 50% cognac, so people could come and collect it free of charge, as it couldnt be sold. They should come early, as it was a "while stock lasts" offer. The local traffic stopped alltogether, while a huge queue was formed by people with bottles and even buckets. The DDSF people must have wet their pants, I guess Nico From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 1 06:11:01 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:11:01 +0200 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BA5@gd-mail03.oce.nl> LOL. Brilliant. Saw a nice article today that calls cellphone owners to help astronomers to receive signals from the Huygens space probe (now on the moon Titan of Saturn). Here is the (free) translation: AMSTERDAM - Astronomers are asking the help of Dutch and Belgium cellphone owners to receive the extremely weak radio signals of the European space probe Huygens. Huygens is since 14th of January on the Saturn moon Titan. Allthough it was thought that Huygens after its descend on parachutes would only survive a few minutes there are clues that the probe is still active. Astronomers all over the world want to pick up Huygens' radiosignal as soon as possible, because any day could be the last that the probe still has sufficient energy. In order to receive the weak radiosignal astronomers call in the help of the people. Using cellphones, measurements can be done because cellphones are sensitive to radio signals. Cellphones communicate via repeaters with telecom satellites. Since these satellites reflect the signal back to the earth surface, groundstations for satellite communication, but also radio astronomers observatories, who have often bigger dish antennas, can receive the weak signals. By cooperating all cellphones, Holland and Belgium can form a gigantic radiotelescope. If people go on to the streets and aim their cellphone between 12.30 and 13.00 hours in east direction, those tens of thousends cellphones work together as one big radio mirror. The weak Huygens signal reflects via space back to the east of our (Holland) country where it can be picked up by out VLA synthesis radio telescope. The amplified signal will enable this radio telescope to receive the Huygens signal loud and clear. It is hoped that astronomers can find out what happened to the probe in the last few months by this amplification. Here is the URL to the article (in Dutch of course) http://www.nu.nl/news/504049/81/Zwak_signaal_Huygens_opvangen_met_mobieltjes .html keep your eyes open! - Henk. > From: "Gooijen H" > Subject: RE: searching for a set of RL02 slides > > > > Damn, I've been fooled by Edward! > > Today is April 1st, and that is the day that everybody tries > > to fool everybody in Holland. I fell for it completely! > > Not just in Holland. > The most hilarious in DK in recent times, was when DDSF in > Roskilde, the > major bottler of spirits, announced that they had had a > production error, > resulting in a mix of 50% whiskey and 50% cognac, so people > could come and > collect it free of charge, as it couldnt be sold. They should > come early, as > it was a "while stock lasts" offer. The local traffic stopped > alltogether, > while a huge queue was formed by people with bottles and even buckets. > The DDSF people must have wet their pants, I guess > > Nico From GOOI at oce.nl Fri Apr 1 06:23:27 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:23:27 +0200 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BA6@gd-mail03.oce.nl> the ".html" is part of the URL. New try without the leading "http" www.nu.nl/news/504049/81/Zwak_signaal_Huygens_opvangen_met_mobieltjes.html - Henk. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 1 06:29:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:29:56 +0000 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1112358596.13914.27.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 11:21 +0100, Witchy wrote: > While clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has been > stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5 that I'd completely > forgotten about. It's been completely robbed of bits that I can see - > memory, floppy drive, CD, HDD - so what's the minimum I can get away with > before at least powering it up to see if it works? The only spare memory > I've got is PC100 (may even be PC66) 168-pin DIMMS. Hmm, I've got a feeling the memory's different - PC memory works at a different voltage to Sparc memory. > Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor cable? It'll work fine with a serial console. Can't remember what connectors the Sparc 5 has though - some Suns have high density connectors and you need a little adapter to convert to 'normal' ports. Easiest thing to do is chop a Sun monitor cable and a PC VGA cable in half and make up a cable so you can connect to a PC display. > HDD looks like it's a standard SCA-80 connection Yep, nothing special there. You might need slimline drives to fit the drive bays (around 1" high) rather than the taller (1.5" or so) drives. I'm sure I've got a spare CDROM drive you can use. Deffo got spare 2GB slimline SCA drives. Can't remember if the floppy drive is SCSI on these or not - it's pretty rare to see any Sun with a floppy fitted anyway. > ....keyboard and mouse are there but I hope I don't need one of those > foil mousemats! Should be obvious from the underside of the mouse whether it's an optical one or not :) Memory's likely a problem. I can lend you some from one of the pile of BP Suns if you want though, or take your machine in and try it out... cheers Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Apr 1 03:37:30 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:37:30 +0100 Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again In-Reply-To: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> References: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> Message-ID: <2925b6544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <20050401002020.H740 at localhost> Tom Jennings wrote: > Man, there's hundreds of those little blue bastards in this > machine. I hope future shorts are so benign. Gulp. Probably worth keeping Murphy's Laws in mind - "if something can go wrong, it will" and "if a component fails, it will take the most expensive or hardest to replace part with it". There's also Philpem's Law (): If you slip with a test probe, that probe will either short out the most expensive chip on the board, or put a gouge into a multilayer PCB. Anyway, I'd replace them if they had a high failure rate, if only to reduce the likelihood of them taking something with them when they do pack up. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Life. Hate it, or ignore it. You can't like it. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Fri Apr 1 06:46:25 2005 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:46:25 +0100 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> > (eep, is a Sparc5 on topic?!) Service manual* is dated August 1994. Downloading it from the web would be a good start. * not really what Tony would call a service manual :-) BTW, there are two types of SS5 - the three slower speeds are one type, the S5-170 has some differences that can cause problems with some versions of BSD or Linux (not that I've had any such problem) > > While clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has been > stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5 that I'd completely > forgotten about. It's been completely robbed of bits that I can see - > memory, floppy drive, CD, HDD - so what's the minimum I can get away with > before at least powering it up to see if it works? The only spare memory > I've got is PC100 (may even be PC66) 168-pin DIMMS. Minimum is one stick in socket nearest the back of the unit 168 pin 60ns ... but I think it needs EDO or even FP RAM rather than SDRAM. Doesn't need floppy, CD or HD to get into console monitor. > > Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor cable? "all" SUN sparcs can work either with serial console on port A or kb+screen (if you have a display board - if all 3 SBUS slots are empty then you cannot use the keyboard and screen). > The > HDD looks like it's a standard SCA-80 connection it is - but if you haven't got one of the right type of mounting brackets you won't be able to secure them properly (same type as on a SS20 - and the cheapest way to get one is to get a complete SS5 or SS20 for a fiver - or less - on eBay :-( ). > ....keyboard and mouse are > there but I hope I don't need one of those foil mousemats! If the mouse has a ball it don't need no steenkin' mats. > > Assuming it does work does anyone have a floppy and CD spare for > this thing? I probably have a floppy ex a SS10 spare - but floppies were not commonly used on the SS5 anyhow. The thin SCSI CD drives are harder to come by - usually easier to use an external one - likely to need one that will work with 512 byte sectors ... for some OSes this will be vital. If you haven't a copy of Solaris/SUNos (and don't want to use Linux or BSD) I can probably find a copy of most versions. It will run Solaris 9 - but if you use the default installation procedure that will take all day; the alternative one is _much_ quicker. Andy -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.8.6 - Release Date: 30/03/05 From jrice54 at blackcube.org Fri Apr 1 07:06:25 2005 From: jrice54 at blackcube.org (James Rice) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 07:06:25 -0600 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <424D4751.8020208@blackcube.org> Andy Holt wrote: >>(eep, is a Sparc5 on topic?!) >> >> >Service manual* is dated August 1994. Downloading it from the web would be a >good start. > >* not really what Tony would call a service manual :-) > >BTW, there are two types of SS5 - the three slower speeds are one type, the >S5-170 >has some differences that can cause problems with some versions of BSD or >Linux >(not that I've had any such problem) > Nextstep 3.3 will run nicely on all SS5's except the 170mhz version It barfs on the Fujitsu chip in the 170. >>hile clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has been >>stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5 that I'd completely >>forgotten about. It's been completely robbed of bits that I can see - >>memory, floppy drive, CD, HDD - so what's the minimum I can get away with >>before at least powering it up to see if it works? The only spare memory >>I've got is PC100 (may even be PC66) 168-pin DIMMS. >> >> The SS5 uses a JDEC 5v SIMM similar to Tsunami based Mac's. I seem to recall that 5v FPM Mac SIMMs will work in a SS5 > >Minimum is one stick in socket nearest the back of the unit 168 pin 60ns ... >but I think it needs EDO or even FP RAM rather than SDRAM. >Doesn't need floppy, CD or HD to get into console monitor. > > > >>Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor cable? >> >> > >"all" SUN sparcs can work either with serial console on port A or kb+screen >(if you >have a display board - if all 3 SBUS slots are empty then you cannot use the >keyboard and screen). > > > >>The >>HDD looks like it's a standard SCA-80 connection >> >> > >it is - but if you haven't got one of the right type of mounting brackets >you won't be able to secure them properly (same type as on a SS20 - and the >cheapest way to get one is to get a complete SS5 or SS20 >for a fiver - or less - on eBay :-( ). > > > I'm in the US but I bought a whole box of 50 brackets for $20. I could send you one. >>....keyboard and mouse are >>there but I hope I don't need one of those foil mousemats! >> >> > >If the mouse has a ball it don't need no steenkin' mats. > > True. > > >>Assuming it does work does anyone have a floppy and CD spare for >>this thing? >> >> > >I probably have a floppy ex a SS10 spare - but floppies were not commonly >used on the SS5 anyhow. >The thin SCSI CD drives are harder to come by - usually easier to use an >external one - likely to need one that will work with 512 byte sectors ... > > If it's a 170mhz version it's likely to be in an Aurora2 chassis that uses a standard form factor SCSI CD-ROM. Still with the 512 byte requirement >for some OSes this will be vital. >If you haven't a copy of Solaris/SUNos (and don't want to use Linux or BSD) >I can probably find a copy of most versions. It will run Solaris 9 - but if >you use the default installation procedure that will take all day; the >alternative one is _much_ quicker. > > > > If you want NS for the SS5, I can probably locate a copy. James (2-SS5 110mhz, 2-SS5 170mhz) -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 07:22:56 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:22:56 -0500 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E8D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > While clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has > been stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5 that I'd > completely forgotten about. It's been completely robbed of > bits that I can see - memory, floppy drive, CD, HDD - so what's the > minimum I can get away with before at least powering it up to see if it > works? The only spare memory I've got is PC100 (may even be PC66) > 168-pin DIMMS. The memory is almost unique. I have some of it in small-stick size (32M sticks I think - the smaller of the two that work). The disks are SCA interface normal SCSI with a special disk carrier - I have both. You can stick a serial terminal on port A and if there is no keyboard attached it will default to serialA as the system console. >>> I'm in the US but I bought a whole box of 50 brackets for $20. I could send you one. Take this guy up on his offer- I don't have that many as spare. >Assuming it does work does anyone have a floppy and CD spare for this thing? Normal SCSI CDROM with 512 byte block option (plextors are beautiful for this). The SS5, esp. with the 170mhz processor, is a lovely example of early Sun SPARC processor technology. The last of the 32 bitters and an example of good clean design. All my Suns are 64 bit, with an Ultra 60 as my high-end workstation, but I keep a few SS5's around just because they are so neat. From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 07:25:16 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:25:16 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E8E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I wanted to create more space on the floor, but I just can't > seem to find a set of RL02 slides to mount the RL02 (standing > on the floor) into a rack. > Does anybody have a spare set for sale or trade? > With regard to shipping costs I would prefer a location in > Europe, but else "world" is ok! I have a few sets (and their RL02's). I just removed 2 from a 4-disk PDP-11/23 configuration. Open to trade ideas. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 1 07:24:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:24:37 -0500 Subject: FA: Motorola Microsystems 8 Bit computer, 6800, Like S100 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050401082437.00b0e890@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> FYI Looks like an Exorbus system. For sale by our own Paxton Hoag. Joe From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Apr 1 07:41:47 2005 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:41:47 -0800 Subject: Original Apple 1 FS Message-ID: From a friend of mine to the LEM Swap list: From: Kyle Hansen Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 1:36:58 AM US/Pacific To: "LEM Swap List" Subject: [swap] FS. Original Apple One LEM-Swap is for buying & selling Mac stuff. It is not a discussion list. See the FAQ for guidelines on postings, feedback, and dispute resolution. -------------------- Here are the specs. The case is made out of wood and I can't find a mouse for it. I originally paid $666 for it so I am hoping to get my money back. CPU: MOS Technology 6502 CPU Speed: 1 MHz FPU: none Bus Speed: 1 MHz Data Path: 8 bit Onboard RAM: 8 kB Maximum RAM: 32 kB VRAM: 1 kB Maximum Resolution: 60.05 Hz, 40x24 char Power: 58 Watts It doesn't offer much in the way of upgrade capabilities. I think that you can install OS 10.3 on it using a utility from Ryan Rempel but you have to find a CD drive first. Best offer takes it. Shipping from 94501. Kyle Hansen The first lemming to lead his peers off the cliff is a bold and decisive leader. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 07:52:55 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 05:52:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BA5@gd-mail03.oce.nl> from Gooijen H at "Apr 1, 5 02:11:01 pm" Message-ID: <200504011352.FAA15240@floodgap.com> > LOL. Brilliant. > Saw a nice article today that calls cellphone owners to help > astronomers to receive signals from the Huygens space probe > (now on the moon Titan of Saturn). You realize today *is* April 1st, right? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASCII stupid question, get a stupid ANSI! ---------------------------------- From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 1 08:25:39 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:25:39 -0600 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <424D59E3.9000801@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Possibly one could build RX01 diskette images with the right contents > (with twice as many diskettes) and migrate things over that way, or > emulate the RX02 itself with a PC, but one can *not* just slurp and > burn RX02s directly from a PC. Has anybody built the RX emulator described at http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ The page says that RX02 support isn't finished, but that the RX01 handler is working. (Ethan, your gmail address is set as reply-to) Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 1 08:32:00 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:32:00 -0600 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E8E@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E8E@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <424D5B60.3070405@mdrconsult.com> James Fogg wrote: >>I wanted to create more space on the floor, but I just can't >>seem to find a set of RL02 slides to mount the RL02 (standing >>on the floor) into a rack. >>Does anybody have a spare set for sale or trade? >>With regard to shipping costs I would prefer a location in >>Europe, but else "world" is ok! > > > I have a few sets (and their RL02's). I just removed 2 from a 4-disk > PDP-11/23 configuration. Open to trade ideas. I'll take the RL02s off your hands if you ship the 11/23 with them. Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 1 08:33:26 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:33:26 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system In-Reply-To: <001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> <002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> At 08:50 PM 3/31/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >I've posted a copy of the UCSD CP/M adaptable system on my site. It has a problem with part of it: >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com Would you consider not using self-expanding PC executables to store archives? You're not even using the licensed WinZip to do it. Straight Zip files can be opened anywhere. The Terak disk images are a fine example of why I'd personally hesitate to upload disk images. Bill Riordan's personal letters are among the text files perserved on the archives. - John From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 08:58:54 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:58:54 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E92@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I have a few sets (and their RL02's). I just removed 2 from a 4-disk > > PDP-11/23 configuration. Open to trade ideas. > > I'll take the RL02s off your hands if you ship the 11/23 with them. I didn't see no smiley. I guess you'll just have to drive your ass up here (nh.us) from tx.us. There's still snow on the ground - hurry and I'll teach you how to ski while you're here. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 1 09:01:57 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:01:57 -0600 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E92@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E92@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <424D6265.5090000@mdrconsult.com> James Fogg wrote: >>>I have a few sets (and their RL02's). I just removed 2 from a 4-disk >>>PDP-11/23 configuration. Open to trade ideas. >> >> I'll take the RL02s off your hands if you ship the 11/23 with them. > > > > I didn't see no smiley. Oh, sorry. Here: 8-) > I guess you'll just have to drive your ass up here (nh.us) from tx.us. > There's still snow on the ground - hurry and I'll teach you how to ski > while you're here. I know how to ski, although I haven't done it in 25 years or so.... If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An entire "city" of jerks. There's a loaded 11/23 in Saskatchewan listed on eBay right now. Me want. Doc From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 1 09:02:27 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 07:02:27 -0800 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: References: <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200504010702.27325.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 31 March 2005 23:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 1, 2005 2:07 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > The DECMATE I could still be a fun system to own - and if you can find > > DECMATE I system images, both PUTR and TELEDISK will make it easy for you > > to create entire copies of diskettes (TELEDISK), format (PUTR) and > > transfer files (PUTR). > > TELEDISK and PUTR will not solve the problem that a PC can *not* write > RX02-format 8" disks. They are a strange mixed-density beast that can > only be written by RX02-compatible drives. RX01 disks _can_ be > written by a PC with the right FDC chip, but since the DECmate I > shipped with RX02s, not RX01s, its disks are RX02-format. > > Possibly one could build RX01 diskette images with the right contents > (with twice as many diskettes) and migrate things over that way, or > emulate the RX02 itself with a PC, but one can *not* just slurp and > burn RX02s directly from a PC. Ooops, my goof - My Decmate IIs use RX50 Diskettes, not RX01's. I knew there was another reason why I sought out DECmate IIs over DECmate Is. I chose the DECmate II also because it will run CP/M (with the Z80 option) as well as supporting a HDD. Of the DECmate I, II and III, the II is most "versatile". Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 09:04:10 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:04:10 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <6c9eee46c9de01.6c9de016c9eee4@optonline.net> > I guess you'll just have to drive your ass up here (nh.us) from tx.us. > There's still snow on the ground - hurry and I'll teach you how to ski > while you're here. > > Ummm... 11/23...peripherials...skiing....leaving Long Island now! David (at least wishing I could...(local) skiing is OVER) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 09:18:44 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:18:44 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <424D59E3.9000801@mdrconsult.com> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <424D59E3.9000801@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 9:25 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > Has anybody built the RX emulator described at > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ > > The page says that RX02 support isn't finished, but that the RX01 > handler is working. I have not built it, but I did have that project in mind when I suggested that one could emulate an RX02 attached to a DECmate I. One advantage of the DECmate I CPU is that the controller for the second drive pair is not an option; it's always present. All one needs is a straight-through DC37-to-DB25 cable for a single drive, or a DC37-to-dual-DB25 Wye cable for both RX02s. I do not have the cable myself (my DECmate I has only one set of drives in the pedestal), but from reviewing the VT278 schematics, it would be as easy to fabricate as a modem cable. If one owned a DECmate with a single set of drives, one could make the dual cable, attach the 0/1 cable to the emulator, the 2/3 cable to the real drives, and very easily take OS/278 images on a PC, boot to a prompt on an emulated drive zero, then copy images from an emulated drive 1 to a real drive 2 or 3. Once one is up and running on real RX02 media, one can swap the DB25 cables and have drives 2/3 emulated. Since I do not have OS/278, I might just do that some time. I just wish there were an easy way to attach a real RX02 drive to a modern machine (I know it can be done, but ISTR we established that a parallel port wasn't quick enough... perhaps with some small amount of external circuitry like a shift register...) -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 1 09:20:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:20:01 -0500 Subject: IBM Nixie tube voltmeter? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050401102001.00ad9ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Last week I found a box marked "IBM" "01480" "DC Volts" that has three Nixie tubes in it. I tested it and sure enough it's DC voltmeter. It's black and measures roughly 4"w x 2 1/2" x 8". It has a single neon light on the LH side that acts as a "1" so that it can read up to 1.999. On the side of the box is a sticker that says API Instruments Model 430 and has the pinout of the rear connector and some other data. Anybody know what this is out of or anything else about it? Joe From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 1 09:32:00 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:32:00 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: References: <424D59E3.9000801@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200504011032.01058.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 01 April 2005 10:18, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 1, 2005 9:25 AM, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Has anybody built the RX emulator described at > > http://www.chd.dyndns.org/rx02/ > > > > The page says that RX02 support isn't finished, but that the > > RX01 handler is working. > I just wish there were an easy way to attach a real RX02 drive to a > modern machine (I know it can be done, but ISTR we established that a > parallel port wasn't quick enough... perhaps with some small amount > of external circuitry like a shift register...) In theory, you can read (and probably write) RX02's, using Tim Mann's utilities for the Catweasel. I've got an MK3, and intend to try it out once I get an 8" floppy drive cable made up to test it with. The board is PCI, so it'll work in most "modern" machines that have PCI slots, given that you can find or write your own drivers. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 09:46:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:46:18 -0500 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 5:21 AM, Witchy wrote: > Folks, > > (eep, is a Sparc5 on topic?!) I think barely. > While clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has been > stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5... > completely robbed of bits... so what's the minimum I can get away with > before at least powering it up to see if it works? > ...Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor cable? The > HDD looks like it's a standard SCA-80 connection....keyboard and mouse are > there but I hope I don't need one of those foil mousemats! You will need one stick of SPARC5 memory... it's +5V, not +3.3V (the notches are in a different place, so it's not possible to install the wrong kind without forcing it). I don't know for certain if it's compatible, but some models of Mac used 5V DIMMS, and some models of PS/2s. In any case, real SS5 8MB DIMMs should be at a discard price, because everyone wants a full boat of 256MB worth of 32MB DIMMs. You can use the console port on any SPARCstation. Start off by not plugging in the keyboard. If you don't get any response, it's _possible_ that the NVRAM settings are forcing the machine to go to the frame buffer, but unlikely. I _think_ powering it up as a test with the NVRAM removed would force it to defaults, but with the exception of older Suns with dead NVRAMs, I haven't tried that. The drive connectors _are_ 80-pin SCA connectors. You will need a way to mechanically secure the drive in the bay. For thermal reasons, if you can get away with one internal drive, you probably should. There is a clear perspex bracket with a handle that locks the drive in place, but in reality, anything you can devise to keep the drive from moving about should be good. For a test, of course, when the machine doesn't have to tolerate being moved about, resting the drive in the bay, perhaps on a non-conductive shim would be adequate. Depending on which case you have, either you would need a slim-line internal CD-ROM or a full-height CD-ROM. If you use an external CD-ROM (set to device 6) that can handle 512 bytes-per-block mode (Plextor, Hitachi, Sony all made them. ISTR Mac 1X and 2X CD-ROM drives will work), you won't have to worry about how large the CD-ROM drive bay is. Don't worry about floppies... you don't boot from them, and with an ethernet interface, they are rarely needed for interchange. I don't know what the status of older versions of Solaris is, but around Solaris 8, Sun made downloads available. I'm sure there are folks on the list that could help with that. Since the SS5 is a sun4m architecture, you are stuck at Solaris 9 and below. There are also BSDs and Linux, etc. for it. I personally prefer to run Solaris on Sun hardware, but if you are big into some other flavor of UNIX, that _is_ an option. You only need a gridded mousepad for a Sun optical mouse (there are two flavors and two styles of pad, BTW), but Sun also sold balled mice. If all you want to do is test it, a single 8MB stick of the right sort of memory, and a DB25 console cable should do the trick. The rest of the goodies I've mentioned are helpful once you get past that stage. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 1 10:00:15 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:00:15 -0800 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: At 11:21 AM +0100 4/1/05, Witchy wrote: >Folks, > >(eep, is a Sparc5 on topic?!) > >While clearing out the soon-to-be dining room where all my stuff has been >stored for the last couple of years I found a Sparc5 that I'd completely >forgotten about. It's been completely robbed of bits that I can see - >memory, floppy drive, CD, HDD - so what's the minimum I can get away with >before at least powering it up to see if it works? The only spare memory >I've got is PC100 (may even be PC66) 168-pin DIMMS. The bad news is that the memory it requires is specific to the Sparc 5 (*maybe* the Sparc 4 might use the same RAM, I can't rememeber). >Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor cable? The Either, I typically run Suns with a serial console. >HDD looks like it's a standard SCA-80 connection.... Yes, though you'll want one that runs as cool as possible. >keyboard and mouse are >there but I hope I don't need one of those foil mousemats! Depends, is the mouse mechanical, or optical. If it's optical I'd personally junk it and get a mechanical mouse. I assume some people like the optical mice. >Assuming it does work does anyone have a floppy and CD spare for this thing? To the best of my knowledge you can use ones from a 4 or 20. Realistically I don't see need for the floppy drive. I don't think I've ever used one on a Sparc. You might want to take a look at getting a dual CPU Sparc 20 rather than reviving a Sparc 5. If the memory for a Sparc 5 is still up there like it used to be 2-3 years ago, a loaded 20 might be cheaper! Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 1 10:10:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:10:20 -0800 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: References: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: At 10:46 AM -0500 4/1/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: >You will need one stick of SPARC5 memory... it's +5V, not +3.3V (the >notches are in a different place, so it's not possible to install the >wrong kind without forcing it). I don't know for certain if it's >compatible, but some models of Mac used 5V DIMMS, and some models of >PS/2s. In any case, real SS5 8MB DIMMs should be at a discard price, >because everyone wants a full boat of 256MB worth of 32MB DIMMs. I'm positive it's not the same type memory. Also, a full load of 8MB DIMM's isn't enough RAM to run any recent version of Solaris. This includes versions as far back as 2.6. I've easily run OpenBSD on the 70Mhz model with only 40MB RAM. >If all you want to do is test it, a single 8MB stick of the right sort >of memory, and a DB25 console cable should do the trick. The rest of >the goodies I've mentioned are helpful once you get past that stage. It will work to test it. I borrowed a 32MB stick to test my Sparc 5/70, then bought 5 8MB sticks off eBay. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gkicomputers at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 10:14:00 2005 From: gkicomputers at yahoo.com (steve) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 08:14:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Original Apple 1 FS In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050401161400.91763.qmail@web51605.mail.yahoo.com> Funny --- Jim Arnott wrote: > From a friend of mine to the LEM Swap list: > > From: Kyle Hansen > Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 1:36:58 AM US/Pacific > To: "LEM Swap List" > Subject: [swap] FS. Original Apple One > > LEM-Swap is for buying & selling Mac stuff. It is > not a discussion list. > > See the FAQ > for guidelines on > postings, feedback, and dispute resolution. > -------------------- > Here are the specs. The case is made out of wood > and I can't find a > mouse > for it. I originally paid $666 for it so I am > hoping to get my money > back. > > CPU: MOS Technology 6502 > CPU Speed: 1 MHz > FPU: none > Bus Speed: 1 MHz > Data Path: 8 bit > Onboard RAM: 8 kB > Maximum RAM: 32 kB > VRAM: 1 kB > Maximum Resolution: 60.05 Hz, 40x24 char > Power: 58 Watts > > It doesn't offer much in the way of upgrade > capabilities. I think that > you > can install OS 10.3 on it using a utility from Ryan > Rempel but you have > to > find a CD drive first. > > Best offer takes it. Shipping from 94501. > > Kyle Hansen > > The first lemming to lead his peers off the cliff is > a bold and > decisive leader. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Apr 1 10:15:28 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 10:15:28 -0600 Subject: IBM Nixie tube voltmeter? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050401102001.00ad9ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050401101415.0bbdd008@localhost> At 10:20 AM 4/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >Last week I found a box marked "IBM" "01480" "DC Volts" that has three >Nixie tubes in it. I tested it and sure enough it's DC voltmeter. It's >pinout of the rear connector and some other data. Anybody know what this is >out of or anything else about it? I know I'm drooling just hearing about it. Cool stuff. Where did you say you had copious pictures posted? [Philosophy] "Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add but when there is nothing more to take out." --Antoine St Exupery --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 1 10:16:58 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:16:58 -0500 Subject: breaking into an RSX-11M Plus 3.0 system References: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <00d801c536d6$3aefc320$3a92a8c0@maggie> I don't have the password for an RSX11 install I have on a used RD53. Anybody know the sequence? Is there something like on VMS where you give a bootpart to be able to interrupt startup and use an altauth ? regards, heinz From kth at srv.net Fri Apr 1 10:03:49 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:03:49 -0700 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <424D70E5.6000903@srv.net> Lyle Bickley wrote: >On Thursday 31 March 2005 22:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: >--snip-- > > >>OS/278 has the necessary patches to deal with the differences in the >>console IOT behavior that was well described in another post. Dunno >>about download, but you'd have a problem with the downloaded file, >>since the RX02 format can _not_ be written by a PC FDC (it's a hybrid >>format that only the RX02 drive (and DEC-compatible 3rd-party >>drives/controllers) can write. >> >> > >I have a couple of DECMATE IIs and I use PUTR (running under DOS) to format >RX50 diskettes and transfer files to the diskettes. I've also used TELEDISK >to copy entire diskettes that I have downloaded and have created virtually >all of the system programs on RX50 diskettes (OS/278, Word Processing, DIBOL, >etc.) that run on a DECMATE II. > >I haven't worked with a DECMATE I since the original one I used at work many >years ago - but as I recollect it is not anywhere near as flexible as a >DECMATE II (which has HDD capability - which I've implimented in both my >DECMATE IIs). > > I believe the DecMate-I could use RL02's. Never saw one set up that way, but it was in the advertisements. >The DECMATE I could still be a fun system to own - and if you can find DECMATE >I system images, both PUTR and TELEDISK will make it easy for you to create >entire copies of diskettes (TELEDISK), format (PUTR) and transfer files >(PUTR). > >Cheers, >Lyle > > From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 1 10:34:49 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:34:49 -0500 Subject: breaking into an RSX-11M Plus 3.0 system In-Reply-To: <00d801c536d6$3aefc320$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: > I don't have the password for an RSX11 install I have on a used RD53. > Anybody know the sequence? Is there something like on VMS where > you give a bootpart to be able to interrupt startup and use an altauth ? > regards, > heinz I, too, am interested in knowing the answer to this. I have several RSX packs (RL01, RL02, RK05), and would like to see if there's anything interesting on them. Same for MUMPS. I have several MUMPS packs that I have not tried to do anything with. I need to pull the images down to my PC with VTServer. I have some RSTS packs that I've been able to get to by reading the pack ids and then mounting them after I've booted the system from another RSTS system pack. Ashley From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 1 10:53:27 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (news at computercollector.com) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:53:27 -0500 Subject: More vintage in the mainstream news.... Message-ID: <200504011649.j31GndiM061249@dewey.classiccmp.org> Here are two articles from eWeek (formerly PC Week) today. No, they're not April Fools jokes. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1780863,00.asp Top Five Vintage Computers Turn Dust into Dollars http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1780855,00.asp Old Computers Find New Homes as Vintage Artifacts Disclaimer: I used to work for eWeek and still have some biases... ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 1 11:05:12 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:05:12 -0600 Subject: More vintage in the mainstream news.... In-Reply-To: <200504011649.j31GndiM061249@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504011649.j31GndiM061249@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401110404.04b1fa70@mail> At 10:53 AM 4/1/2005, news at computercollector.com wrote: >http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1780863,00.asp >Top Five Vintage Computers Turn Dust into Dollars Sellam - you think there's only a dozen PDP-8 in the world? - John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 11:14:29 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:14:29 -0500 Subject: More vintage in the mainstream news.... Message-ID: <6d142a36d1a7ce.6d1a7ce6d142a3@optonline.net> > > Sellam - you think there's only a dozen PDP-8 in the world? > No I am not Sellam (and we are all grateful for that)....but I figured I would chime in... If he is talking about operational, complete, "straight-8" machines, he is probably on the right order of magnitude. Remember almost all of the ones you see are /S/ E /L /I /A /M models.... From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 1 11:37:09 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:37:09 -0600 Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401081914.020c8b50@slave> References: <0IE900AWE9ZSBF@ms-mss-05.columbus.rr.com> <000a01c53689$48fae9b0$0500fea9@game> <6.1.2.0.2.20050401081914.020c8b50@slave> Message-ID: <424D86C5.9010207@oldskool.org> Adrian Vickers wrote: >> Exactly what makes that system worth $999 for a starting bid? > > I think that's what must be the "wow!" factor. Nearly $1K for an Apple2 > is ridiculous... Now, had it been signed personally by Steve Jobs & > covered in gold leaf, then maybe... Agreed, that's too high. He's also offering an Adlib (card only, no drivers or manuals or anything else that would make it more valuable) for $24.95 starting bid, which is about 4x too much for a bare card. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 1 11:38:17 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 05 17:38:17 GMT Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <0504011738.AA14235@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > You realize today *is* April 1st, right? Only for those who live on the Gregorian calendar. I live my life on the Republic of Terra calendar instead: http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/RT/calendar/spec.txt Today is SE 44 Nis 12 (Space Era year 44 month Nisannu day 12). MS (The RT calendar won't be supported in 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, though, only in 4.5BSD-Quasijarus along with extension of time_t to 64 bits.) From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 11:40:16 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:40:16 -0500 Subject: breaking into an RSX-11M Plus 3.0 system Message-ID: <6d2a4996d28de9.6d28de96d2a499@optonline.net> > I don't have the password for an RSX11 install I have on a used RD53. > Anybody know the sequence? Is there something like on VMS where > you give a bootpart to be able to interrupt startup and use an > altauth ? > regards, > heinz IIRC [I worked alot more on 11-M than on M-Plus... and it was over 15 years ago...]..... While the startup script is running you should be ablse to press Ctrl-C to abort it. If the sys manager did not put in good error handlers, it will leave you at an MCR prompt....A cleaner alternative is to enter Ctrl-Z when prompted for the date and time during startup....RMMV David From marvin at rain.org Fri Apr 1 11:45:36 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:45:36 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? Message-ID: <424D88C0.355B9C38@rain.org> In searching for radio gear, I ran across this URL and thought it might of some interest here. I don't recognize it, but it looks like it might be some older computer stuff. http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 11:54:35 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:54:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <0504011738.AA14235@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Apr 1, 5 05:38:17 pm" Message-ID: <200504011754.JAA17244@floodgap.com> > > You realize today *is* April 1st, right? > > Only for those who live on the Gregorian calendar. I live my life on the > Republic of Terra calendar instead: > > http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/RT/calendar/spec.txt > > Today is SE 44 Nis 12 (Space Era year 44 month Nisannu day 12). Like I said, today *is* April 1st. ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Computers are like air conditioners. They stop working if you open windows. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 1 11:54:05 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:54:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: breaking into an RSX-11M Plus 3.0 system In-Reply-To: <00d801c536d6$3aefc320$3a92a8c0@maggie> from "Heinz Wolter" at Apr 01, 2005 11:16:58 AM Message-ID: <200504011754.j31Hs5vq010478@onyx.spiritone.com> > I don't have the password for an RSX11 install I have on a used RD53. > Anybody know the sequence? Is there something like on VMS where > you give a bootpart to be able to interrupt startup and use an altauth ? > regards, > heinz Do a Google search. I know there is a proceedure out there for RSX-11, and might work with RSX-11M+. Zane From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 1 11:57:36 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again reprise In-Reply-To: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> References: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> Message-ID: <20050401095317.H740@localhost> On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > Well I identified the failure, fixed it, and the disk pack is > formatting right now. Whew! That was at midnight. At about 1am, initializing (OS image) the last sectors of the last surface -- really -- it crapped out again. Similar symptom; infinite read errors. Seeks, appears to format OK) can't read sector address headers. I *hope* it's the same problem, which means shotgunning all those @#_(*&#_(#*&@_#@# G.D.M.F. blue-death caps. (The Read/Write Amplifier Board in this 6070 drive is an ugly thing; lots of ECOs, a .25" hole drilled in it, to hold an added trimpot! with lots of wiggly wires. ALso the PCB layout doesn't match the drawings (schematic at least mostly does) so it's likely an early rev or something. I hope this means that it's the only thing with blue-death caps on it. I can hope can't I?) From dundas at caltech.edu Fri Apr 1 11:59:26 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 09:59:26 -0800 Subject: breaking into an RSX-11M Plus 3.0 system In-Reply-To: <6d2a4996d28de9.6d28de96d2a499@optonline.net> References: <6d2a4996d28de9.6d28de96d2a499@optonline.net> Message-ID: At 12:40 PM -0500 4/1/05, dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: > > I don't have the password for an RSX11 install I have on a used RD53. >> Anybody know the sequence? Is there something like on VMS where >> you give a bootpart to be able to interrupt startup and use an >> altauth ? >> regards, >> heinz > > >IIRC [I worked alot more on 11-M than on M-Plus... and it was over >15 years ago...]..... > >While the startup script is running you should be ablse to press >Ctrl-C to abort it. If the sys manager did not put in good error >handlers, it will leave you at an MCR prompt....A cleaner >alternative is to enter Ctrl-Z when prompted for the date and time >during startup....RMMV I am by no means an expert on RSX but it is my recollection also that this was the way to break in. A judicious ^C during startup at the console, particularly in V3.2 and prior, would let you in. Not sure about V4.0 and later; that issue may have been addressed. Might need to do an ATL to see the active tasks and an ABO of one or more tasks once at the MCR prompt. John From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 1 12:04:34 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 05 18:04:34 GMT Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <0504011804.AA14408@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Like I said, today *is* April 1st. ^^ For you it is, for me it isn't. Your calendar says April 1, 2005, mine says Nisannu 12 of SE 44. MS From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 1 12:07:31 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:07:31 -0600 Subject: More vintage in the mainstream news.... In-Reply-To: <6d142a36d1a7ce.6d1a7ce6d142a3@optonline.net> References: <6d142a36d1a7ce.6d1a7ce6d142a3@optonline.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120642.04c0f050@mail> At 11:14 AM 4/1/2005, dvcorbin at optonline.net wrote: >> >> Sellam - you think there's only a dozen PDP-8 in the world? >> >If he is talking about operational, complete, "straight-8" machines, he is probably on the right order of magnitude. Remember almost all of the ones you see are /S/ E /L /I /A /M models.... That's what I thought. How could a reporter miss the distinction? It's one word missing, like the difference between lightning and lightning bug. - John From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 12:18:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:18:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <0504011804.AA14408@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Apr 1, 5 06:04:34 pm" Message-ID: <200504011818.KAA13082@floodgap.com> > > Like I said, today *is* April 1st. ^^ > > For you it is, for me it isn't. Your calendar says April 1, 2005, mine > says Nisannu 12 of SE 44. This may be a subtle point, but it's the day, not the date, I'm referring to. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A battle avoided cannot be lost. -- Sun Tzu -------------------------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 1 12:20:52 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:20:52 -0600 Subject: Freecycle: another route to free computer junk Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> I recently saw a poster for http://www.freecycle.org/ . "It's a grassroots movement of people who are giving (& getting) stuff for free in their own towns. Each local group is run by a local volunteer moderator. Membership is free." I signed up a few weeks ago. Today I got a carload of old Commodore, Atari, Tandy and Mac IIci-era junk, free for the hauling ten minutes away, but I had to "take it all". It made me think there might be a business opportunity in a "freeBay.com" style site - like eBay but without the cost. And indeed, a little googling revealed other sites with the same aim. If anything, I think Freecycle suffers from a lack of centralized interface. Not everyone is smart enough to sign up for a mailing list, and a web interface would be easier to search. (Oops, didn't mean to start that "list vs. web" thread again. I give up. You're right, yes, absolutely, eBay should be a mailing list and not a web site.) I might want to subscribe to my county's list, but I'd also drive three hours for the right giveaway. It also made me think there could be opportunity in aggregating and searching these giveaway mailing lists. It would be great to filter the messages that contain the word "computer" or "fish tank" or whatever you're hunting for. At a simple level, you could do it with your mail-reader's filters. "freeBay.com" is in some sort of registrar-lock. Like the "hot deal" sites, an operator could make money on keywords and affiliate ads. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 1 12:24:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 11:24:33 -0700 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <0504011804.AA14408@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504011804.AA14408@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <424D91E1.4070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: >>Like I said, today *is* April 1st. ^^ >> >> > >For you it is, for me it isn't. Your calendar says April 1, 2005, mine >says Nisannu 12 of SE 44. > > Hmm My still is displaying March ... I think I'll change it tomorow and skip the 1st :) PS ... I favor 13 months and a yearly leap day. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Apr 1 12:33:47 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 19:33:47 +0100 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > I can get the screws and washers and send them to you for the cost of > postage if you can't find them there but I'm in the US so postage will cost > a few bucks depending on how fast you want them. Do you need any nuts or > anything to go with them? I've tracked down a source for the machine screws - Apex Fasteners in Slough (thanks to Jules Richardson for the lead). Now all I need to track down is some nickel sheet or ribbon, NI200 alloy, 0.002 to 0.005 inch thickness (0.05 to 0.125 mm). Before anyone asks, I'm trying to hack together something similar to the "hobby spot welder" on . I've got the computer-grade capacitors (five rather large Cornell Dubilier DCMX series 120,000uF 25V caps, for a total of 600,000uF with a tolerance of -10%/+75%) and just need the solder tags, screws and washers for them, and some electrodes. Shame it's so hard to find #4 copper wire (then again I'm probably not looking in the right place). The thickest I've found is 2.5mm solid core copper. "Sorry for destroying the electronics lab, Sir, it seemed like a good project at the time." Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... "I'll be back ;-)" From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 1 12:39:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:39:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Woah -- topic drift! from OT to OT! Re: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <200504011754.JAA17244@floodgap.com> References: <200504011754.JAA17244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050401103616.S740@localhost> On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Only for those who live on the Gregorian calendar. I live my life on the >> Republic of Terra calendar instead: >> >> http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/RT/calendar/spec.txt >> >> Today is SE 44 Nis 12 (Space Era year 44 month Nisannu day 12). > > Like I said, today *is* April 1st. ^^ > > Only IDIOTS don't disuse the Discordian calendar. tomj at zero:~ ddate Today is Sweetmorn, the 18th day of Discord in the YOLD 3171 Linux is sensible enough to ship with ddate, but freeBSD is not. Puny humans! Anyone know of Discordian to Babylonian conversion software? Michael? From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 12:42:20 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:42:20 -0500 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E97@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Can I use a serial console on it or do I need a 13w3 monitor Btw - there are 13w3 <-> vga adapters. They sell for around $15.00. You will need a sync-on-green vga monitor. From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 12:45:29 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:45:29 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> > If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An > entire "city" of jerks. NH south of Concord is just an extention of Massachusetts. Massholes that thrive there. AKA - Flatlanders. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 1 12:46:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:46:16 -0500 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <16973.38648.101163.78847@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Philip" == Philip Pemberton writes: Philip> .... Shame it's Philip> so hard to find #4 copper wire (then again I'm probably not Philip> looking in the right place). The thickest I've found is 2.5mm Philip> solid core copper. Hm. It's easy enough to find here, at an electrical supply shop. For that matter, welder cable comes much thicker than that and nicely flexible, too. Another possibility might be lightning protection cable (the stuff that goes from lightning rod to ground) -- in the USA at least that's often copper. You could just take a bunch of 2.5 mm wire, or somewhat thinner, and bundle it. You could even leave the insulation on (if you need insulation). Or take bare wire and bundle it -- cover with plastic flex tubing or shrink tube if insulation is needed. paul From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 1 12:47:45 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:47:45 -0500 Subject: IBM Nixie tube voltmeter? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050401101415.0bbdd008@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050401101415.0bbdd008@localhost> Message-ID: <424D9751.1070604@internet1.net> Yes, I'd like to see it too!! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Tom Peters wrote: > I know I'm drooling just hearing about it. Cool stuff. Where did you say > you had copious pictures posted? From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 1 12:48:20 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 05 18:48:20 GMT Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <0504011848.AA14547@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This may be a subtle point, but it's the day, not the date, I'm referring to. But there is absolutely nothing special about the day. The "April Fool's Day" semantics result only from the Gregorian calendar mapping this day to the April 1 date, and are applicable only to those using the Gregorian calendar. BTW I have always hated "April Fool's Day" with passion. But now I can breathe a sigh of relief since the new calendar I use has NO April 1. MS From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 1 12:54:06 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:54:06 +0000 Subject: Freecycle: another route to free computer junk In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> Message-ID: <1112381646.13896.74.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 12:20 -0600, John Foust wrote: > I recently saw a poster for http://www.freecycle.org/ . > > "It's a grassroots movement of people who are giving (& getting) > stuff for free in their own towns. Each local group is run by > a local volunteer moderator. Membership is free." That exists here too - by way of my regional usenet group. People often make requests for things that they're looking for as well as offering bits (both for sale and for free). Just wish there was a better way of promoting that it exists as ISPs over here seem to go out of their way to encourage people *not* to use usenet - and for all the bleating on that the local council and newspaper does about recycling, when it comes down to it they don't *actually* seem keen on promoting recycling at all. (Sorry, but that's a real pet hate of mine) Anyway, I'm OT *again* so I'll shut up :) (but I have scored some *very* nice classic hardware for the museum via local usenet groups...) J. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 12:53:31 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:53:31 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? Message-ID: <6d61d8f6d5f32c.6d5f32c6d61d8f@optonline.net> ----- Original Message ----- From: Marvin Johnston Date: Friday, April 1, 2005 12:45 pm Subject: Old Computer Rescue? > > In searching for radio gear, I ran across this URL and thought it > mightof some interest here. I don't recognize it, but it looks > like it might > be some older computer stuff. > > http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html > >From the Site: >>The typwriter was bolted to a desk, which didn't work, so that went to the >>dump already, also all the boxes of books and boxes of paper strip are in the >>driveway, OK to come get those or I will haul them away. AAARGH..........[Is this cause for justified homicide?] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 1 12:54:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 10:54:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again Message-ID: <200504011854.KAA05819@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" > >On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 00:32 -0800, Tom Jennings wrote: >> Well I identified the failure, fixed it, and the disk pack is >> formatting right now. Whew! >> >> Another crapacitor -- looks like a tantalum, but it's only .01uF, >> a dipped-looking bright blue axial part, about the size of a 1/8W >> resistor. I think these were discussed recently; not necessarily >> tants, but some short-lived process. > >That's one thing that bugs me about old kit for which there aren't >schematics around - tantalum caps often completely explode. If the value >was critical for some reason, then that creates a problem! > >I've started taking lots of photos of any rare boards I have these days, >just in case. Once a cap explodes or a resistor burns out it might be >impossible to tell what the right part should be (well, without serious >circuit analysis and/or guesswork) > Hi One thing to consider is that critical valued passive parts rarely are in a position that will cause them to burn when shorted. Still, most IC's are across the rails. I've seen IC's with a crater right where the part number was. Dwight From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 1 12:56:52 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 05 18:56:52 GMT Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <0504011856.AA14562@ivan.Harhan.ORG> woodelf wrote: > Hmm My still is displaying March ... I think I'll change it tomorow and > skip the 1st :) Seems like a good strategy. :-) At least for those like me who hate April Fool's Day with passion. > PS ... I favor 13 months and a yearly leap day. So how would you deal with the fact that a tropical year will *never* divide evenly into days no matter how you twist and turn it? In my calendar I've addressed this problem at its root: instead of starting with the day as the basic unit and trying to pack days into years like other calendars do (doomed to failure because of the above), I start with the year as the basic unit (actual astronomically determined tropical years starting at Ostara, the vernal equinox), divide the year into dates mathematically (without regard to actual solar days), and then *map* days to dates as a separate function. MS From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 1 11:51:13 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:51:13 -0800 Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) References: <20050331182333.E740@localhost> Message-ID: <424D8A11.4FE4E35@msm.umr.edu> In the Western Dynax variety of these drives, there was a signal called "funul" which was "function unload". When a power supply was sensed to be out of spec, or any other malfunction was detected, such as an out of range seek attempt, funul would be pulled to kill any write current. The heads would then have a connection made to a set of capacitors which had sufficent energy to retract them very quickly (faster velocity than a regular seek) back to the unload stops. This ensured an unload when the power cable was pulled. I had occasions where the heads were energized when the unload happened and you could see dead sectors in a spiral all across many tracks down to track 0, as the heads unloaded. If you can run a verify program, and see this sort of thing, just a sector or two / track, you may have had this happen. On our drives there was a few gates that could fail to cause this to happen. Jim Tom Jennings wrote: > Last week, in the middle of debugging Kermit (and making headway) > the 6070 disk dropped dead (I think the technical word for it is > 'sh*t the bed'). From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 1 13:06:27 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:06:27 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer><002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> Message-ID: <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "John Foust" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:33 AM > At 08:50 PM 3/31/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >>I've posted a copy of the UCSD CP/M adaptable system on my site. It has a >>problem with part of it: >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com > > Would you consider not using self-expanding PC executables to store > archives? You're not even using the licensed WinZip to do it. > Straight Zip files can be opened anywhere. > > The Terak disk images are a fine example of why I'd personally > hesitate to upload disk images. Bill Riordan's personal letters > are among the text files perserved on the archives. > > - John I started using self-expanding archives because of complaints that people couldn't unzip straight Zip files. Not everyone uses the same Zip format. I use Winzip v8.1, many people use a variety of programs. I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. Anyone unable to handle the archives are welcome to contact me and I will work with them. The exe files can still be opened by the full blown winzip program. I do an anti-virus scan of every file I post on my site and I hope everyone scans everything they download from me or anyone else (exe or otherwise). I am still looking into other options but I have yet to find a format that everyone likes. As for the Terak archive I will look into it, it is not mine I never even touched the disks. My guess is the Terak computer that the collection came from may have once been owned by Bill Riordan. My goal is to put up as much of the quickly disappearing material as possible in the hope others will copy it for posterity. This goes for a variety of systems, some I archive personally, some like the Terak disks were sent to me, others I find where I can. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 1 13:07:13 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:07:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Original Apple 1 FS Message-ID: <200504011907.LAA05823@clulw009.amd.com> Apr 1, 2005 > > From a friend of mine to the LEM Swap list: > >From: Kyle Hansen >Date: Fri Apr 1, 2005 1:36:58 AM US/Pacific >To: "LEM Swap List" >Subject: [swap] FS. Original Apple One > >LEM-Swap is for buying & selling Mac stuff. It is not a discussion list. > >See the FAQ for guidelines on >postings, feedback, and dispute resolution. >-------------------- >Here are the specs. The case is made out of wood and I can't find a >mouse >for it. I originally paid $666 for it so I am hoping to get my money >back. > >CPU: MOS Technology 6502 >CPU Speed: 1 MHz >FPU: none >Bus Speed: 1 MHz >Data Path: 8 bit >Onboard RAM: 8 kB >Maximum RAM: 32 kB >VRAM: 1 kB >Maximum Resolution: 60.05 Hz, 40x24 char >Power: 58 Watts > >It doesn't offer much in the way of upgrade capabilities. I think that >you >can install OS 10.3 on it using a utility from Ryan Rempel but you have >to >find a CD drive first. > >Best offer takes it. Shipping from 94501. > >Kyle Hansen > >The first lemming to lead his peers off the cliff is a bold and >decisive leader. > > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 1 13:12:01 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:12:01 -0600 Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: <371463af0429c8f17865eb3d179f9879@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <424D9D01.1030602@oldskool.org> David H. Barr rote: > remotely on-topic; what would you consider to be your most "artless > hack?" I mean, what klu(d)ge are you most proud of, and yet at the > same time a bit abashed (-fun- to say) to cop to? Computer-related: About everything I did to my poor AT&T PC 6300: Sawed a hole in the front to mount a 3.5" floppy drive; snipped out the old peizo squawker to connect a 1/8" line-out jack to connect to the stereo; a few other "modifications". Non-Computer-related: I fixed a $500+ microscope with chewing gum. Somehow the lens barrel wouldn't fit into the main housing, so I took a bit of chewing gum and stuffed it up the housing, then slowly pushed the lens barrel in. It stuck, and still works 20+ years later (I was 12 at the time). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 1 13:16:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 11:16:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Computer Rescue? Message-ID: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >In searching for radio gear, I ran across this URL and thought it might >of some interest here. I don't recognize it, but it looks like it might >be some older computer stuff. > >http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html > Hi It might be an analog computer but it looks more like a power monitor for a large computer. He didn't have an address? Dwight From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 1 13:18:40 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:18:40 -0500 Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again In-Reply-To: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> References: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401140709.028a1b98@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 03:32 01-04-05, Tom Jennings said something like: >Well I identified the failure, fixed it, and the disk pack is >formatting right now. Whew! > >Another crapacitor -- looks like a tantalum, but it's only .01uF, >a dipped-looking bright blue axial part, about the size of a 1/8W >resistor. I think these were discussed recently; not necessarily >tants, but some short-lived process. Oh yeah, these are likely monolithic ceramic caps. We used them in various products as logic supply bypass caps where I used to work. I personally have not seen any failures like this in my own experience. I have a bunch of 0.1 uF parts on reels around here somewhere. However, disc ceramic capacitor failures were a recent topic of discussion on one of the old radio email lists. Failure mode was migration of the capacitor plate material through the disc because of flaws or cracks. High leakage current or outright shorts were the problems observed. I can see that happening with axial monolithic caps if there were manufacturing quality problems with the ceramic materials used to make the parts. >Man, there's hundreds of those little blue bastards in this >machine. I hope future shorts are so benign. Gulp. May be just the only one you'll ever see but at least you've learned by experience a failure mode of these parts. Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Apr 1 13:33:07 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 20:33:07 +0100 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) In-Reply-To: <16973.38648.101163.78847@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16973.38648.101163.78847@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <18adec544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <16973.38648.101163.78847 at gargle.gargle.HOWL> Paul Koning wrote: > Hm. It's easy enough to find here, at an electrical supply shop. For > that matter, welder cable comes much thicker than that and nicely > flexible, too. It's not supposed to be flexible - it's for the electrodes. Two pieces of #6 (5mm dia) copper wire, with one end ground down to a 1/32 rounded point. I can see two possibilities - either the 2.5mm wire will work fine, or it will blast itself apart when the capacitor array dumps 50-odd (or was it 70? need to crunch the numbers again) watt-seconds through it. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Error 216: Tagline out of paper From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 1 13:36:37 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:36:37 -0600 Subject: Freecycle: another route to free computer junk In-Reply-To: <1112381646.13896.74.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> <1112381646.13896.74.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401133228.04d06900@mail> At 12:54 PM 4/1/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Just wish there was a better way of promoting that it exists as ISPs >over here seem to go out of their way to encourage people *not* to use >usenet - and for all the bleating on that the local council and >newspaper does about recycling, when it comes down to it they don't >*actually* seem keen on promoting recycling at all. (Sorry, but that's a >real pet hate of mine) I'll second that - waste haulers with municipal contracts over here often only actually recycle a very few types of glass and plastic, but seem to encourage people to put everything in the recycle bin. I'm concerned that new wave of for-profit computer recycling places will have the means to suck up a great deal of old computers. They often pair up with municipalities (who've often levied fees for dumping monitors) and then publicize computer-drop-off events. - John From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Apr 1 13:47:28 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:47:28 -0600 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) In-Reply-To: <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050401134451.0beaa1c0@localhost> Phil: Do you have a plan / schematic / organizing principle? I'd live to be able to build something like this myself, but the $425 price tag for the basic power supply is out of reach for me. If I could build that, I could buy the tips from these guys. At 07:33 PM 4/1/2005 +0100, you wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> >Before anyone asks, I'm trying to hack together something similar to the >"hobby spot welder" on . I've got the >computer-grade capacitors (five rather large Cornell Dubilier DCMX series >120,000uF 25V caps, for a total of 600,000uF with a tolerance of -10%/+75%) [Historians] To give an accurate description of what has never occurred is not merely the proper occupation of the historian, but the inalienable privilege of any man of parts and culture. --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 1 13:39:49 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:39:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) In-Reply-To: Philip Pemberton "OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface)" (Apr 1, 19:33) References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <10504012039.ZM21907@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1 2005, 19:33, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Shame it's so hard to find #4 copper wire (then again I'm > probably not looking in the right place). The thickest I've found is 2.5mm > solid core copper. It may depend on what you're asking for. What do you mean by "#4 copper wire"? 4SWG, which is just under 1/4" diameter? 4AWG, which is somewhat slimmer? That might be "wire" to the company that runs the mill that makes it[1], but it would be "copper rod" to most of the rest of us. Try a model engineering supplier. Or do you mean insulated cable? That would have a cross-sectional area of between 21mm^2 and 28mm^2, depending on whose wire gauge you used, and would have a current capacity of something like 150 amps, continuous, in an enclosed space (like a conduit). Almost double that in free air, more for intermittent use. Try a welding supplier, and ask for the cable used for earth clamps, or buy a cheap pair of jump leads. Or do what I did, and twist 3 or 4 thinner cables together. I have a cable that will run about 350A-400A, good for a fairly decent spot welder. [1] I once got some 3/8" square silver steel from the local wire works. They called *that* wire, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 1 13:48:33 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:48:33 -0700 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides References: <0504011856.AA14562@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <424DA591.4030208@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Sokolov wrote: > > So how would you deal with the fact that a tropical year will *never* > divide evenly into days no matter how you twist and turn it? Have the odd days as extra days off. The week is more the standard than days. > In my calendar I've addressed this problem at its root: instead of starting > with the day as the basic unit and trying to pack days into years like other > calendars do (doomed to failure because of the above), I start with the year > as the basic unit (actual astronomically determined tropical years starting > at Ostara, the vernal equinox), divide the year into dates mathematically > (without regard to actual solar days), and then *map* days to dates as a > separate function. Lets not forget the fact that the LUNAR calendar also is thrown in for good measure too for most of the special days. > MS Now back on topic, is Stonehendge a computer or not for calculating things? PS. I would start year 1 of any new calendar from when a self-sustaning space habitat is formed. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 1 13:52:33 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:52:33 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system In-Reply-To: <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> <002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401134918.04b69a28@mail> At 01:06 PM 4/1/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. Only if you count all the other people as 1%. :-) I'm sure that many of us appreciate your efforts. I've never had trouble with Zip. At the command line, I use Infozip's free version. Even if you're using the Windows version for creating archives, if you're not using their proprietary compression techniques, I can't think of a time when 'infozip' wasn't able to handle them. >I do an anti-virus scan of every file I post on my site and I hope everyone scans everything they download from me or anyone else (exe or otherwise). Viruses are one thing, spyware is another. These days with spyware everywhere, any executable gives me the willies. There are plenty of evil people stuffing spyware into downloadable executables you find on the web. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 1 13:52:45 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:52:45 -0700 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer><002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <424DA68D.4040104@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > I started using self-expanding archives because of complaints that > people couldn't unzip straight Zip files. Not everyone uses the same > Zip format. I use Winzip v8.1, many people use a variety of programs. > > I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, > self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. Umm I may want files for my LINUX box... I favor raw files for TEXT since anybody ( using ascii ) can read them. Ben alias woodelf From martinm at allwest.net Fri Apr 1 13:59:09 2005 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:59:09 -0700 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? References: <424D88C0.355B9C38@rain.org> Message-ID: <424DA80D.40407@allwest.net> Marvin Johnston wrote: > In searching for radio gear, I ran across this URL and thought it might > of some interest here. I don't recognize it, but it looks like it might > be some older computer stuff. > > http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html > > I sincerely hope that this is an April Fools joke! Martin From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Apr 1 14:04:21 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:04:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Rescue? In-Reply-To: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Marvin Johnston" >> http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html >> > > Hi > It might be an analog computer but it looks more > like a power monitor for a large computer. THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! I'm waiting for a response back.... NOOOOOOO! OMIGOD - SOMEBODY **DO** SOMETHING!!!!! John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 14:47:25 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:47:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <4914.192.168.0.3.1112350919.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <1735.192.168.0.3.1112388445.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Service manual* is dated August 1994. Downloading it from the web would be > a good start. I found it after posting the original message :) Normally I look for stuff first but I just happened to be sitting here reading CC mail and saw the machine sitting there on the floor... > has some differences that can cause problems with some versions of BSD or > Linux > (not that I've had any such problem) The odd thing with this one is the CPU speed selector jumpers, according to the legend on the board mine is jumpered at 125mhz whereas the part number points to it being a 70mhz plain old model. > but I think it needs EDO or even FP RAM rather than SDRAM. > Doesn't need floppy, CD or HD to get into console monitor. OK. > have a display board - if all 3 SBUS slots are empty then you cannot use > the > keyboard and screen). There's a framebuffer in there with a huge LSI chip on it. > cheapest way to get one is to get a complete SS5 or SS20 > for a fiver - or less - on eBay :-( ). I saw that this afternoon and it made me wonder if it was worth pursuing getting it running! Average price was about 15 quid (uk pounds) or less for a complete machine. > The thin SCSI CD drives are harder to come by - usually easier to use an > external one - likely to need one that will work with 512 byte sectors ... > for some OSes this will be vital. I saw a picture of the CD and it's the same Toshiba model that DEC used as the RRD43 (I think....RRD4x anyway). The only difference I can see is the DEC model has an extra filling plate at the front to make it fit 5 1/4" holes. > you use the default installation procedure that will take all day; the > alternative one is _much_ quicker. Cool. I was thinking of playing with solaris 'cos it's the one computing platform I always came up against at work in the past and never got a chance to really look at it. Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Apr 1 14:47:41 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:47:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Old Computer Rescue? Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Marvin Johnston" >> http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html >> > > Hi > It might be an analog computer but it looks more > like a power monitor for a large computer. THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! I'm waiting for a response back.... NOOOOOOO! OMIGOD - SOMEBODY **DO** SOMETHING!!!!! John From elf at ucsd.edu Fri Apr 1 14:51:58 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:51:58 -0800 Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401123937.0232d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> Marvin wrote: > In searching for radio gear, I ran across this URL > and thought it might of some interest here. I don't > recognize it, but it looks like it might be some older > computer stuff. > http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html Looking at the picture on the website, it looks as though this guy has a Bendix G-15. Wow. Compare it to the following picture: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-bendix-g15d.jpg Same thing. (Same picture, too? Hmmm...) From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 1 14:52:09 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:52:09 -0600 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <424DB479.1060703@mdrconsult.com> James Fogg wrote: >> If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An >>entire "city" of jerks. > > > NH south of Concord is just an extention of Massachusetts. > Massholes that thrive there. AKA - Flatlanders. You do realize we're still on CCtalk, right? :) Doc From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 14:52:20 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:52:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <424D4751.8020208@blackcube.org> References: <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> <424D4751.8020208@blackcube.org> Message-ID: <1799.192.168.0.3.1112388740.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Nextstep 3.3 will run nicely on all SS5's except the 170mhz version It > barfs on the Fujitsu chip in the 170. Really? I thought it was only NeXT and Intel support! Mind, I've got a NeXT Slab to run NS3.3 on (coming next week I hope!) so I need to stick to solaris for this I think. > The SS5 uses a JDEC 5v SIMM similar to Tsunami based Mac's. I seem to > recall that 5v FPM Mac SIMMs will work in a SS5 That's not a G3 then? I've got one full of memory I can, er, 'borrow' :) > I'm in the US but I bought a whole box of 50 brackets for $20. I could > send you one. If I don't decide to just get a complete machine off ebay I'll take you up on that! > If it's a 170mhz version it's likely to be in an Aurora2 chassis that > uses a standard form factor SCSI CD-ROM. Still with the 512 byte > requirement Nope, definitely a skinny one. Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 1 14:54:03 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:54:03 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <424DB4EB.5050008@sbcglobal.net> James Fogg wrote: >> If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An >>entire "city" of jerks. > > > NH south of Concord is just an extention of Massachusetts. > Massholes that thrive there. AKA - Flatlanders. > > Huh? I thought it was spelled "Massatwoshits"? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Apr 1 14:54:03 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:54:03 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E98@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <424DB4EB.5050008@sbcglobal.net> James Fogg wrote: >> If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An >>entire "city" of jerks. > > > NH south of Concord is just an extention of Massachusetts. > Massholes that thrive there. AKA - Flatlanders. > > Huh? I thought it was spelled "Massatwoshits"? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 14:58:18 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:58:18 -0600 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? In-Reply-To: References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 2:04 PM, John Lawson wrote: > On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> From: "Marvin Johnston" > >> http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html > > It might be an analog computer but it looks more > > like a power monitor for a large computer. > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! > OMIGOD - SOMEBODY **DO** SOMETHING!!!!! *snicker* From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 1 14:58:57 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 14:58:57 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer><002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail><00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401134918.04b69a28@mail> Message-ID: <000a01c536fd$bc7d20f0$0a90d6d1@randylaptop> From: "John Foust" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:52 PM > At 01:06 PM 4/1/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >>I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, >>self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. > > Only if you count all the other people as 1%. :-) I'm sure > that many of us appreciate your efforts. I've never had trouble > with Zip. At the command line, I use Infozip's free version. > Even if you're using the Windows version for creating archives, > if you're not using their proprietary compression techniques, > I can't think of a time when 'infozip' wasn't able to handle them. > >>I do an anti-virus scan of every file I post on my site and I hope >>everyone scans everything they download from me or anyone else (exe or >>otherwise). > > Viruses are one thing, spyware is another. These days with spyware > everywhere, any executable gives me the willies. There are plenty > of evil people stuffing spyware into downloadable executables > you find on the web. > > - John I use lavasoft's adware to try and keep my system clear of spyware, Norton Internet Security for everything else. As I said the exe file can be used as a zip file, it can even be renamed to a .zip and it will work normally. I guess I should post a reminder of this on my download pages. I'd rather use Linux tools to archive my files but that would keep them out of reach of so many :-(, my goal is to give access to everyone. I have no disillusions, sooner or later my website will disappear like so many in the past. Anyone interested in what I am archiving should make copies and hopefully post it themselves,. That is the only way I know of to truly archive the info. This is why most of my webspace is dedicated to mirroring the work of others. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 15:13:24 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:13:24 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E9D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! > > I'm waiting for a response back.... > Oh craps. It IS a G-15. From dancohoe at oxford.net Fri Apr 1 15:16:39 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:16:39 -0500 Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401123937.0232d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <006301c53700$18ca83a0$8f01a8c0@dcohoe> Note that the name of the picture file is foo.jpeg but who knows. > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Apr 1 15:16:22 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:16:22 +0100 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050401134451.0beaa1c0@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050401134451.0beaa1c0@localhost> Message-ID: In message <5.1.0.14.2.20050401134451.0beaa1c0 at localhost> Tom Peters wrote: [ battery tab welder ] > Do you have a plan / schematic / organizing principle? I'd live to be able > to build something like this myself, but the $425 price tag for the basic > power supply is out of reach for me. If I could build that, I could buy the > tips from these guys. Well, as far as I can tell, the core of the welder is a 680,000uF 25V capacitor (or a capacitor array), with some form of electronically actuated switch (transistor or relay basically) to connect and disconnect the power supply and a current-limited constant-voltage power supply. You also have an SCR (or a solid state relay, or even a normal mechanical relay if you can get one that's beefy enough) that switches the charger on and optionally a voltage monitor. I'd use an L200C regulator for the power supply - it can handle 1.5A and has current limiting and voltage regulation built in. The HS300A2 welder seems to take 24V on the input, and has a power output of around 110 watt-seconds. That seems to be easily reproducible - the only really expensive parts are going to be the capacitors (I got mine from Mainline Surplus Sales - ) and the SCR or SSR. I'm still trying to track down a nice, powerful SCR that can handle 1000 amps for about 10mS. As far as logic goes, all you really need to do is disconnect the power supply when the trigger button is pressed. A simple transistor inverter circuit should be sufficient: Trigger sw. | SCR Power --------------------------- 0 | 0 1 1 | 1 0 That just leaves connectors - I don't recognise the connectors HSW used, but I'd guess that they're standard medium-current power connectors. If you really felt like skimping on cost, you could probably get a smaller capacitor. I've only got one cap wired up at the moment and it's still capable of welding two pieces of thin tinned copper wire together. I wonder how well it would work for making Cu/CuNi thermocouples... The only thing I really need now is nickel foil (sheet, shim stock, whatever the proper name is), about 0.003" thick. McMaster-Carr sell it as order code 9707K33 - that's the standard NI200 alloy stuff used for battery tags. It's $62 for a 6" by 50" length, assuming the website is accurate. I'm still trying to track down a supplier in the UK. I found one that seemed to think that ?50 for a 10cm square piece of 200 alloy nickel was a reasonable price. $60 seems OK, but the shipping would probably be pretty expensive :-/ Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If it wasn't for C, we would be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 15:19:09 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:19:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <1799.192.168.0.3.1112388740.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from Witchy at "Apr 1, 5 09:52:20 pm" Message-ID: <200504012119.NAA14214@floodgap.com> > > The SS5 uses a JDEC 5v SIMM similar to Tsunami based Mac's. I seem to > > recall that 5v FPM Mac SIMMs will work in a SS5 > > That's not a G3 then? I've got one full of memory I can, er, 'borrow' :) No. This is RAM from the older PCI Power Macs, such as the 7300 (or in this case, the 9500, which is the aforementioned Tsunami). The G3s were the first Macs to use SDRAM. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Art is anything you can get away with. -- Marshall McLuhan ----------------- From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 1 15:20:18 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:20:18 -0500 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E9F@sbs.jdfogg.com> > >> If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An > entire "city" > >>of jerks. > > > > > > NH south of Concord is just an extention of Massachusetts. > > Massholes that thrive there. AKA - Flatlanders. > > You do realize we're still on CCtalk, right? :) > > Doc Yeah, after the ripping I got for my slander about the glorious and illustrious lives of career wordsmiths I figure my cherry is busted and I'll say what I'll say. And I'm sure there's a few Mass residents on the list too. It 'twas in jest. Though South of Concord does smell way too much like Massachusetts for me. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:21:21 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:21:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401123937.0232d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401123937.0232d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <2217.192.168.0.3.1112390481.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Looking at the picture on the website, it looks as though this guy has a > Bendix G-15. Wow. > > Compare it to the following picture: > > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-bendix-g15d.jpg > > Same thing. (Same picture, too? Hmmm...) It looks like Hefty Harry has cut'n'pasted the G15 pic onto a background shot of old radios, he's even not matched the size of the chop against the new background and cropped the image! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:22:53 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 22:22:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E97@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E97@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <2238.192.168.0.3.1112390573.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Btw - there are 13w3 <-> vga adapters. They sell for around $15.00. You > will need a sync-on-green vga monitor. Thanks, I'll keep a lookout for one of those since I'm bound to get a working sparc in the future. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cb at mythtech.net Fri Apr 1 15:29:28 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:29:28 -0500 Subject: Freecycle: another route to free computer junk Message-ID: >If anything, I think Freecycle suffers from a lack of centralized >interface. Not everyone is smart enough to sign up for a mailing list, >and a web interface would be easier to search. (Oops, didn't mean to >start that "list vs. web" thread again. I give up. You're right, >yes, absolutely, eBay should be a mailing list and not a web site.) > >I might want to subscribe to my county's list, but I'd also drive three >hours for the right giveaway. It also made me think there could be >opportunity in aggregating and searching these giveaway mailing lists. My wife monitors the list for my county... and I get the feeling that a centralized list would work against the point of Freecycle. I have the strong impression that anyone sucking up the goods to resell or otherwise do anything other than fill personal use (and this would border on collectors hording items as well), is not what the freecycle movement is all about. So a cental list, that a reseller could monitor and have the resources to snatch everything of value quickly, would be seriously frowned upon. By keeping the lists smaller and more local, it helps bolster the general idea of being a good neighbor. That said, I do watch for computers of interest myself (I haven't snagged any yet however). But I also give back, just Tuesday I gave away an unneeded queen size box spring via Freecycle. And last night I replied to someone looking for a free PC monitor (but haven't heard back, so I gather they got a better offer then the 14" I have available). -chris From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 1 15:29:24 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:29:24 -0500 Subject: Data I/O "303-011B CMOS/Bipolor PLD Programming/Testing Adapter" ? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050401162924.00aee830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Anybody know where I can find a manual on-line for the item above? I checked Al's site but it's not there. This is an adapter that fits the model 29 Programmer and allows the user to program QFP PLDs. It has a socket for 20 QFPs and two sockets for 28 pin QFPs. Joe From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 1 15:38:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 21:38:26 +0000 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system In-Reply-To: <424DA68D.4040104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> <002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> <424DA68D.4040104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1112391506.13896.89.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 12:52 -0700, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > > I started using self-expanding archives because of complaints that > > people couldn't unzip straight Zip files. Not everyone uses the same > > Zip format. I use Winzip v8.1, many people use a variety of programs. > > > > I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, > > self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. > > Umm I may want files for my LINUX box... I favor raw files for TEXT > since anybody ( using ascii ) can read them. And tar for multi-file archives... more portable than zip I'd say, plus errors won't trash the archive (or at least not so much!). Of course if compression *has* to be used... hmm... I suppose zip *is* the best bet there, as at least it's more widely supported than some of the other compression methods. Self-extracting archives sound like a *very* bad idea when you have no idea what the target machine will be! :) From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Apr 1 15:45:00 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:45:00 +0100 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system In-Reply-To: <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer><002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> <00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <424DC0DC.9030907@gjcp.net> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "John Foust" > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:33 AM > >> At 08:50 PM 3/31/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> >>> I've posted a copy of the UCSD CP/M adaptable system on my site. It >>> has a problem with part of it: >>> Randy >>> www.s100-manuals.com >> >> >> Would you consider not using self-expanding PC executables to store >> archives? You're not even using the licensed WinZip to do it. >> Straight Zip files can be opened anywhere. >> >> The Terak disk images are a fine example of why I'd personally >> hesitate to upload disk images. Bill Riordan's personal letters >> are among the text files perserved on the archives. >> >> - John > > > > I started using self-expanding archives because of complaints that > people couldn't unzip straight Zip files. Not everyone uses the same > Zip format. I use Winzip v8.1, many people use a variety of programs. > > I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, > self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. I tried running them but they don't seem to work in Linux or in Mac OSX. > Anyone unable to handle the archives are welcome to contact me and I > will work with them. The exe files can still be opened by the full > blown winzip program. But I don't have Winzip, and I can't find a Linux version. > I am still looking into other options but I have yet to find a format > that everyone likes. Why not just use ordinary zip files? Gordon. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Fri Apr 1 15:52:46 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 13:52:46 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <424DC2AE.FABDC8CF@msm.umr.edu> did anyone look at the graphic? It isn't sitting in someones driveway, or any garage I can see. I smell a 4-1 operation going on here, aka a rat. how long was this up? Jim John Lawson wrote: > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! > > I'm waiting for a response back.... From river at zip.com.au Fri Apr 1 15:57:33 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 07:57:33 +1000 Subject: Motorola Microsystems 8 Bit computer, 6800, Like S100 Message-ID: <008d01c53705$d73b9ea0$1b2d083d@river> Hi, It's a Motorola Micro Module system. river From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 1 16:06:51 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:06:51 -0600 Subject: searching for a set of RL02 slides In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E9F@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2E9F@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <424DC5FB.4050203@mdrconsult.com> James Fogg wrote: >>>> If the rest of NH is like Portsmouth, no thanks. An >> >>entire "city" >> >>>>of jerks. >>> >>> >>>NH south of Concord is just an extention of Massachusetts. >>>Massholes that thrive there. AKA - Flatlanders. >> >> You do realize we're still on CCtalk, right? :) >> >> Doc > > > Yeah, after the ripping I got for my slander about the glorious and > illustrious lives of career wordsmiths I figure my cherry is busted and :) You axed for it, babe. Do not poke the rattlesnakes. They have evil tempers. 8-) <-- Yet Another Smiley > I'll say what I'll say. And I'm sure there's a few Mass residents on the > list too. It 'twas in jest. Though South of Concord does smell way too > much like Massachusetts for me. Having spent no time North of Concord, I can't verify that it's any better, I can vouch for the Southern Smell. The lodging, the food, and the 'tude in Portsmouth were consistently worse even than Los Angeles.[0] The [not cheap] hotel the client put me in took the elevators down for the count the second day I was there, with me on the fourth floor, and refused to give me even a discount for having to tramp stairs for 4 days. And the best meal I had all week was from Subway. Doc [0] I have to admit I eat VERY well, and very cheaply, when I'm in LA. Our client there is on Wilshire in the heart of Little Korea, and I love most any home-style asian cooking. From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 16:09:26 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:09:26 -0600 Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: <2217.192.168.0.3.1112390481.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401123937.0232d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> <2217.192.168.0.3.1112390481.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 3:21 PM, Witchy wrote: > > > Looking at the picture on the website, it looks as though this guy has a > > Bendix G-15. Wow. > > > > Compare it to the following picture: > > > > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-bendix-g15d.jpg > > > > Same thing. (Same picture, too? Hmmm...) > > It looks like Hefty Harry has cut'n'pasted the G15 pic onto a background > shot of old radios, he's even not matched the size of the chop against the > new background and cropped the image! It's not as though there's a shortage of g-15 pictures on the 'net: http://images.google.com/images?q=bendix+g15 -dhbarr. From elf at ucsd.edu Fri Apr 1 16:10:34 2005 From: elf at ucsd.edu (Eric F.) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 14:10:34 -0800 Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401135803.0234c1f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Dan wrote: > Note that the name of the picture file is foo.jpeg > but who knows. Sure -- I realize that. What I was referring to though was that: http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/foo.jpg looks as if it is a photoshopped version of the 'real' picture at: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-bendix-g15d.jpg. Besides, heftyharry's G-15 doesn't look quite deep enough to actually hold all the guts of the computer. Cropping it off towards the back end, and placing some debris in back of it, is what gave it away. I think I'll just take my medicine here, and admit to the fact that I've been duped by an April 1st shenanigan. :-P From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 1 16:35:59 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:35:59 -0500 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net> <001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer> <002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> Message-ID: <20050401173559.6cffbf3d.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 08:33:26 -0600 John Foust wrote: > At 08:50 PM 3/31/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >I've posted a copy of the UCSD CP/M adaptable system on my site. It > >has a problem with part of it: Randy > >www.s100-manuals.com > > Would you consider not using self-expanding PC executables to store > archives? You're not even using the licensed WinZip to do it. > Straight Zip files can be opened anywhere. > > The Terak disk images are a fine example of why I'd personally > hesitate to upload disk images. Bill Riordan's personal letters > are among the text files perserved on the archives. > > - John > My experience has always been that self-expanding PC executables, if based on ZIP compression, are easily renamed with a .zip extension and opened with an unzip utility on any platform. This has even been true in a few instances where there was a 'click through license' that otherwise would have had to have [OK] clicked on it to proceed. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 1 16:36:34 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:36:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface) In-Reply-To: Philip Pemberton "Re: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488 interface)" (Apr 1, 20:33) References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <16973.38648.101163.78847@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <18adec544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <10504012336.ZM22288@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1 2005, 20:33, Philip Pemberton wrote: > It's not supposed to be flexible - it's for the electrodes. Two pieces of #6 > (5mm dia) copper wire, with one end ground down to a 1/32 rounded point. OK, that makes good sense. Try Folkestone Engineering Supplies, a company I've used for small amounts of "stuff". They have no minimum order and they just happen to have some 1/4" copper (your #4 is just a little smaller than 1/4"): http://www.metal2models.btinternet.co.uk/Copper.htm Have you got a lathe? If not, I'm not far away if you need the ends machined. > I can see two possibilities - either the 2.5mm wire will work fine, or it > will blast itself apart when the capacitor array dumps 50-odd (or was it 70? > need to crunch the numbers again) watt-seconds through it. I'd guess the electrodes won't be very long, and the pressures won't be very high for this spot welder, but 2.5mm might also bend. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 1 16:46:22 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:46:22 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer><002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop><6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail><00de01c536ed$f94d9f10$4f3cd7d1@randylaptop><424DA68D.4040104@jetnet.ab.ca> <1112391506.13896.89.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003901c5370c$a46b2e30$9e3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:38 PM > On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 12:52 -0700, Ben Franchuk wrote: >> Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> >> > >> > I started using self-expanding archives because of complaints that >> > people couldn't unzip straight Zip files. Not everyone uses the same >> > Zip format. I use Winzip v8.1, many people use a variety of programs. >> > >> > I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, >> > self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. >> >> Umm I may want files for my LINUX box... I favor raw files for TEXT >> since anybody ( using ascii ) can read them. > > And tar for multi-file archives... more portable than zip I'd say, plus > errors won't trash the archive (or at least not so much!). > > Of course if compression *has* to be used... hmm... I suppose zip *is* > the best bet there, as at least it's more widely supported than some of > the other compression methods. > > Self-extracting archives sound like a *very* bad idea when you have no > idea what the target machine will be! :) As stated in a different post the *.exe file can be renamed to *.zip and any zip program will handle it normally, that is if the algorithms are compatible. I had too many complaints from people that didn't have a compatible program so a self extracting archive is the best way I've found so far. If anyone can come up with a method that is truly better I'll jump on it. The problem is simple if it's not a self extracting file then everyone has to use a compatible extractor :-( For DOS/Windoze there are many different incompatible zip programs. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 16:53:46 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:53:46 -0500 Subject: CXY08 (without S-box cover/handle!) QBUS board for shipping Message-ID: FIFO. Send me email off line. vax, 9000 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:01:48 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:01:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <200504012119.NAA14214@floodgap.com> References: <1799.192.168.0.3.1112388740.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from Witchy at "Apr 1, 5 09:52:20 pm" <200504012119.NAA14214@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2499.192.168.0.3.1112396508.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> That's not a G3 then? I've got one full of memory I can, er, 'borrow' :) > > No. This is RAM from the older PCI Power Macs, such as the 7300 (or in > this case, the 9500, which is the aforementioned Tsunami). The G3s were > the first Macs to use SDRAM. In that case (along with everything else) I'd best leave this one on the shelf! Ta. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:17:00 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:17:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401123937.0232d578@popmail.ucsd.edu> <2217.192.168.0.3.1112390481.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <2719.192.168.0.3.1112397420.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > It's not as though there's a shortage of g-15 pictures on the 'net: > > http://images.google.com/images?q=bendix+g15 but they're all by and large from the same place or 404'd. Pity about that colour pic of the (I assume) console, a fuller picture of the whole kit would've been nice! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 17:29:15 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:29:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <2499.192.168.0.3.1112396508.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from Witchy at "Apr 2, 5 00:01:48 am" Message-ID: <200504012329.PAA20754@floodgap.com> > > > That's not a G3 then? I've got one full of memory I can, er, 'borrow' :) > > No. This is RAM from the older PCI Power Macs, such as the 7300 (or in > > this case, the 9500, which is the aforementioned Tsunami). The G3s were > > the first Macs to use SDRAM. > In that case (along with everything else) I'd best leave this one on the > shelf! Why? It's not very expensive RAM and it's easy to come by. Most vendors still carry it, at least on this side of the pond (I can think of a number of mail-order memory shops that stock it inexpensively). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Angels we have heard on High/Tell us to go out and Buy. -- Tom Lehrer ------ From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 1 17:34:34 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 18:34:34 -0500 Subject: possible dec equipment Message-ID: <200504012334.j31NYY59002827@mwave.heeltoe.com> Found this article while trolling usenet. Looks like there might be some interesting stuff. Plus, who can argue with Stanley Kubrick? Anyone know this guy? http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/msg/0c88a96cd23e2beb -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:21:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:21:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again In-Reply-To: <2925b6544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 1, 5 10:37:30 am Message-ID: > > There's also Philpem's Law (): If you slip with a test probe, > that probe will either short out the most expensive chip on the board, or put > a gouge into a multilayer PCB. Is this related to DrARD's law? : Any tool dropped will find the most serious points to short-circuit. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:25:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:25:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again In-Reply-To: <1112354591.13896.9.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 1, 5 11:23:11 am Message-ID: > I've started taking lots of photos of any rare boards I have these days, > just in case. Once a cap explodes or a resistor burns out it might be > impossible to tell what the right part should be (well, without serious > circuit analysis and/or guesswork) I prefer to draw out annotated schematics of anything remotely odd. That way I have a good chance of being able to fix it. Unless your photographs are seriously good, you will have trouble reading component values, and maybe even recognising colour bands 'is that violet or brown, is that one red or orange?' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 1 17:28:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:28:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <001201c536b8$d08e5b80$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at Apr 1, 5 01:46:25 pm Message-ID: > Service manual* is dated August 1994. Downloading it from the web would be a > good start. > > * not really what Tony would call a service manual :-) No, but probably what I'd expect (and would call a boardswapper guide). -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 17:52:08 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 15:52:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download Message-ID: <200504012352.PAA07984@floodgap.com> This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75103 -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- Mac rollout, 24 January 1984 ----- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 1 18:22:53 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:22:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system Message-ID: <200504020022.QAA06011@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >From: "Jules Richardson" >Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 3:38 PM >> On Fri, 2005-04-01 at 12:52 -0700, Ben Franchuk wrote: >>> Randy McLaughlin wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > I started using self-expanding archives because of complaints that >>> > people couldn't unzip straight Zip files. Not everyone uses the same >>> > Zip format. I use Winzip v8.1, many people use a variety of programs. >>> > >>> > I have yet to find one archival format that everyone can use, >>> > self-extracting archives at least supports 99%. >>> >>> Umm I may want files for my LINUX box... I favor raw files for TEXT >>> since anybody ( using ascii ) can read them. >> >> And tar for multi-file archives... more portable than zip I'd say, plus >> errors won't trash the archive (or at least not so much!). >> >> Of course if compression *has* to be used... hmm... I suppose zip *is* >> the best bet there, as at least it's more widely supported than some of >> the other compression methods. >> >> Self-extracting archives sound like a *very* bad idea when you have no >> idea what the target machine will be! :) > >As stated in a different post the *.exe file can be renamed to *.zip and any >zip program will handle it normally, that is if the algorithms are >compatible. I had too many complaints from people that didn't have a >compatible program so a self extracting archive is the best way I've found >so far. > >If anyone can come up with a method that is truly better I'll jump on it. >The problem is simple if it's not a self extracting file then everyone has >to use a compatible extractor :-( > >For DOS/Windoze there are many different incompatible zip programs. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com > > Hi The older ZIP program works fine and is compatable with most any newer versions that I know of. Dwight From cvisors at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 18:26:33 2005 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:26:33 +1000 Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <200504012352.PAA07984@floodgap.com> References: <200504012352.PAA07984@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2005 9:52 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered > OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. > > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75103 Unfortunately this looks like only an update not the full version, so it requires you to have mac os 9 allready installed. Benjamin -- kisses on the dancefloor in my past i need some comfort just like you beating like a bass drum time goes by i want the last dance just like you Covenant - Bullet From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Apr 1 18:45:11 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:45:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: from Benjamin Gardiner at "Apr 2, 5 10:26:33 am" Message-ID: <200504020045.QAA15508@floodgap.com> > > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered > > OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. > > > > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75103 > > Unfortunately this looks like only an update not the full version, so > it requires you to have mac os 9 allready installed. I noticed that soon after I sent it. I'm asking my Apple contact to clarify. So far, he swears he's not kidding, so we'll see. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Michael Jackson is [reverse] Pinocchio: more lies, less nose. -- Vanity Fair From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 1 18:50:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:50:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: <424D8A11.4FE4E35@msm.umr.edu> References: <20050331182333.E740@localhost> <424D8A11.4FE4E35@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050401164956.K740@localhost> The DG drives have the same system, a N.O. relay with a huge cap yanks the linear motor home, should power fail. ANd there's the write current interlocks too (probably all std for this type of drive). On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, jim stephens wrote: > Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 09:51:13 -0800 > From: jim stephens > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only ; > Subject: Re: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) > > In the Western Dynax variety of these drives, there was a signal > called "funul" which was "function unload". > > When a power supply was sensed to be out of spec, or any other > malfunction was detected, such as an out of range seek attempt, > funul would be pulled to kill any write current. > > The heads would then have a connection made to a set of capacitors > which had sufficent energy to retract them very quickly (faster velocity > > than a regular seek) back to the unload stops. > > This ensured an unload when the power cable was pulled. > > I had occasions where the heads were energized when the unload > happened and you could see dead sectors in a spiral all across many > tracks down to track 0, as the heads unloaded. > > If you can run a verify program, and see this sort of thing, just a > sector > or two / track, you may have had this happen. > > On our drives there was a few gates that could fail to cause this to > happen. > > Jim > > Tom Jennings wrote: > >> Last week, in the middle of debugging Kermit (and making headway) >> the 6070 disk dropped dead (I think the technical word for it is >> 'sh*t the bed'). > > > From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 1 18:57:38 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 16:57:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401140709.028a1b98@mail.netsync.net> References: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> <6.1.2.0.2.20050401140709.028a1b98@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <20050401165336.E740@localhost> On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > Oh yeah, these are likely monolithic ceramic caps. We used them in various > products as logic supply bypass caps where I used to work. I personally have > not seen any failures like this in my own experience. I have a bunch of 0.1 > uF parts on reels around here somewhere. Well this one sure failed -- turned brown from heat! It was just an ordinary monolithic, but I replaced them all just the same :-) > However, disc ceramic capacitor failures were a recent topic of discussion on > one of the old radio email lists. Failure mode was migration of the capacitor > plate material through the disc because of flaws or cracks. High leakage > current or outright shorts were the problems observed. I can see that > happening with axial monolithic caps if there were manufacturing quality > problems with the ceramic materials used to make the parts. As tolerances tighten in general parts are run closer to their ratings; my solution is to use 100V and up disk ceramics. I stock only so many parts, this makes life easier... My guess is that all the tants that fail, lower-voltage ratings fail more often than higher-voltage... just guessing... From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 1 19:01:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:01:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: D.G. Nova update, fixed again, again. In-Reply-To: <424D8A11.4FE4E35@msm.umr.edu> References: <20050331182333.E740@localhost> <424D8A11.4FE4E35@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050401165746.I740@localhost> Fixed! Again! (but for how long? :-) Well the recent bout of read errors was two-fold; one, I had forgotten to solder back in one end of a small electrolytic I'd lifted in testing; it was on the on-board-generated -6V supply for the head read amp. (doh.) Lots of noise/ripple I assume raised the error rate. I also replaced every single blue-death cap with disk ceramics. And all of them from .01uF to .1uF (they are all bypasses). Passes diags, formats, five pattern passes each surface, zero defects, RDOS installed, tapes reloaded. We'll see how it goes... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 1 18:59:42 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 16:59:42 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <424DEE7E.99E5A4E9@cs.ubc.ca> John Lawson wrote: > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! > > I'm waiting for a response back.... > > NOOOOOOO! > > OMIGOD - SOMEBODY **DO** SOMETHING!!!!! For those who may not know, the Bendix G-15 is a small, drum-memory, tube-logic computer dating from the mid-late 1950s, same class of machine as Tom Jenning's LGP-30. The typewriter-on-a-desk which the owner referred as being 'non-functional so it went in the trash' was the electromechanical system console (A Master-Writer made by IBM I believe, something like the Friden Flexowriter, going from the picture I have). I certainly share the above sentiments, this is very sad if it has just been dismantled. It was a manageable piece of 50's computing (occupies just a corner of a room rather than a whole room). Paul Pierce also has one. Even rescuing parts such as the drum and heads, logic units, would be nice. Let us know if anyone gets anything. A little while ago a friend who works at the telephone company told me they had recently trashed a PDP-8 that had been used as a controller for a pulse-dial testing/exerciser system. (Well, I thought he was a friend). He couldn't describe it to me so I have no idea what era/model it was. Then a few weeks ago the guys at the radio museum dumpstered several late-60s NIXIE electronic calculators and some 70s-era computing stuff two days before I had a chance to see it or pick it up. For the sake of pleasantness I will forgo list readers my sentiments at the time. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 1 19:15:48 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 17:15:48 -0800 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <424DF245.12707231@cs.ubc.ca> > same class of machine as Tom Jenning's LGP-30. whoops, that should be: same class of machine as the LGP-30 (the predecessor to Tom's LGP-21). From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 1 19:45:06 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 20:45:06 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <006c01c53725$a2a88d40$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15... Where TF is it? John A. From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 1 20:27:57 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:27:57 -0500 Subject: possible dec equipment References: <200504012334.j31NYY59002827@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <020101c5372b$95525710$3a92a8c0@maggie> that's a pdp1 front panel and tty, no? ;) april fools? h "Brad Parker" wrote To: > Found this article while trolling usenet. Looks like there might be > some interesting stuff. Plus, who can argue with Stanley Kubrick? > > Anyone know this guy? > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/msg/0c88a96cd23e2beb > > -brad From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Apr 1 20:49:51 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:49:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050402024951.58643.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> --- Heinz Wolter wrote: > that's a pdp1 front panel and tty, no? ;) april > fools? > h Yes it is a PDP-1. But it is well-documented that the major customer for the PDP-1 was ITT, who used it for a teleprinter switching application. This does look like an April Fool's joke, however. That console typewriter looks too clean. Even more suspicious is that the console typewriter is sitting next to what appears to be the graphics scope. There are several pictures on the net of PDP-1s in museum exhibits that look like this, but in all the old photos, it looks like the typewriter was likely to be on a table attached to the CPU cabinet. It is also dubious that the teletype switch application would use a graphics scope at all. Also, the picture of the internals shows a machine in a non-standard white cabinet that strongly resembles the prototype PDP-1 at the CHM. The whole thing smells fake, but I sent the guy a serious response anyway indicating the value of the find. --Bill From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 1 21:30:04 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:30:04 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? In-Reply-To: References: <200504011916.LAA05855@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401221204.02eae180@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 15:04 01-04-05, John Lawson said something like: >On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>>From: "Marvin Johnston" >>>http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/OLD_COMPUTER_SALE.html >> >>Hi >>It might be an analog computer but it looks more >>like a power monitor for a large computer. > > > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! > >I'm waiting for a response back.... > > > > NOOOOOOO! > > >OMIGOD - SOMEBODY **DO** SOMETHING!!!!! Aggh!! Where is it??!! Anybody!!??? I'LL HELP PAY their citation from the police for having "junk" in their driveway!! Let's just try to rescue anything that remains (if there's much left)! Just look at this URL to see what we're basically losing: http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/ Jeeez, that's all the more reason for someone to have disposal instructions, including basic descriptions, for the "stuff" their family may be stuck with after their death. Keep us posted on this please. --Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 1 21:36:10 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:36:10 -0600 Subject: DRI archives (CP/M world) References: <200504020022.QAA06011@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000c01c53735$206e96c0$263dd7d1@randylaptop> I just added two more archives to my website (in the unclassified section). These are in-house DRI disks, some are simply boot disks for some of DRI's computers, some include code in the process of being debugged, etc. I've sent an email to Gaby and when she puts them up on her site I'll remove them from mine. Yes they are in the evil self-extracting zip format. They can be renamed to have a .zip extension if desired. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 22:25:58 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 23:25:58 -0500 Subject: Computers...Aprils Fools??? Message-ID: <0IEA000Q3XKH6O@mta5.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> There are a few "rescues"/"scraps" that I **REALLY** hope are hoaxes.otherwise I will be in jail for murder. PDP-1's G-15's if *EITHER* of these went from intact system to the skip, it WOULD be a crime. Even semi-significant parts would be a shame.. Done know if I will sleep tonight wonderng... From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 1 22:51:54 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 20:51:54 -0800 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? Message-ID: <424E24EA.1080101@ix.netcom.com> Chrisian Fandt wrote: > Aggh!! Where is it??!! Anybody!!??? I'LL HELP PAY their citation from the > police for having "junk" in their driveway!! Let's just try to rescue > anything that remains (if there's much left)! > > Just look at this URL to see what we're basically losing: > http://members.iinet.net.au/~dgreen/ > > Jeeez, that's all the more reason for someone to have disposal > instructions, including basic descriptions, for the "stuff" their family > may be stuck with after their death. > > Keep us posted on this please. > > --Chris F. > > NNNN > > > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian > Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > > * I want to second this and third this message. I'm in another hobby, science fiction fanzines, where we just lost one of the most significant collections of the last 50 years. And all because the collector didn't write it's disposition exactly in his will. He left most of his estate to his church. The fanzines were left to a University collection. He mentioned this is letters and conversations - but not in the will. But probate ruled that the church gets everything since it wasn't in the will. The church wass fighting to keep the stuff because they smell big money. So the collection now is lost to the group that would appreciate it most. I know of two major collections of science fiction lost the same way. One of them was original art worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Is your collection going to the dump? Will your kin know what to do with it? Will the books and tapes be tossed? If you value the effort you put into it, protect your collection. Write it up - talk to your heirs. Billy From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 1 23:18:22 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 00:18:22 -0500 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? In-Reply-To: <424E24EA.1080101@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <0IEA0083SZZHVB@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> >> On Behalf Of Billy Pettit >>He left most of his estate to his church. The fanzines were left to a >>University collection. He mentioned this is letters and conversations - >>but not in the will. >>But probate ruled that the church gets everything since it wasn't in the >>will. The church wass fighting to keep the stuff because they smell big >>money. If they smell money, they are unlikely to scrap it off the top. They should be contacted... >>So the collection now is lost to the group that would appreciate it >>most. I know of two major collections of science fiction lost the same >>way. See above...were they really lost??? >>One of them was original art worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. Sounds like money to me.. This does not changer the fact that you NEED to document your desires to make sure the person (o organization) YOU WANT gets your posessions... But it its CRITICAL to differentiate something which is lost/DESTROYED from something that merely goes to a different destination.. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Apr 1 23:18:42 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 21:18:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computers...Aprils Fools??? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050402051842.49914.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> --- "David V. Corbin" wrote: > There are a few "rescues"/"scraps" that I **REALLY** > hope are > hoaxes.otherwise I will be in jail for murder. > PDP-1's G-15's if *EITHER* of > these went from intact system to the skip, it WOULD > be a crime. Even > semi-significant parts would be a shame.. Done know > if I will sleep tonight > wonderng... David, After close examination of the pictures, I am certain that the PDP-1 shown in the pictures is in fact the one at the Computer History Museum. You can even see the purple cubicle walls (left over from SGI's former tenancy of the building) that are used as a backdrop for the Visible Storage exhibit currently on display. Also, the picture of the inside does not look like a production machine -- it is almost certainly a photo of the prototype PDP-1 also owned by CHM. Others have noted that the photo of the G-15 appears to be a fake composite. I admit that before realizing this, I sent serious inquiries to both parties advising them that they were sitting on treasures worth big $$$$ and would be well advised to preserve them. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 23:55:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 00:55:09 -0500 Subject: Help me! Before I take the plunge In-Reply-To: <424D70E5.6000903@srv.net> References: <424C6B53.3050101@gbronline.com> <200503312307.11624.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <424D70E5.6000903@srv.net> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 11:03 AM, Kevin Handy wrote: > I believe the DecMate-I could use RL02's. Never saw one set up that way, > but it was in the advertisements. There was a RL278 option, but I have never seen one in person. I don't know why it was always referred to as an RL02 controller (as opposed to the RL8A which was routinely used with RL01 drives... I've done that myself), but perhaps there's a firmware reason for that. Certainly there's no engineering reason why the controller couldn't talk to both RL01 and RL02 drives. The cabling is identical, and the only difference from the device driver's standpoint is number of cylinders. -ethan From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 2 00:13:53 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2005 22:13:53 -0800 Subject: [Milsurplus] e-mail address harvesters of QTH.net In-Reply-To: <199.3c3091f4.2f7f778d@cs.com> References: <199.3c3091f4.2f7f778d@cs.com> Message-ID: <200504012213530529.29403C3A@192.168.42.129> Hold on a moment here! *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 01-Apr-05 at 23:20 WA5CAB at cs.com wrote: >eBay, PayPal or on-line banks. Those are all recognizable out of hand, >and can be treated as wolves are. Picking a nit... You could have picked a better analogy. Wolves are sociable critters. I would greatly prefer their company to that of any spammer. Contrary to popular belief, wolves are not the mindless "man eaters" that they are often made out to be. They are, in fact, pretty timid where humans are concerned. Unfortunately, "timid" does not make for sensational headlines or even more sensationalistic movies, so wolves are often made out to be 102% opposite what they are in reality. If I may... The phishing schemes (and spam in general) come from people (and I use the term loosely) who have all the redeeming social characteristics of toxic slime mold. I'll shut up now and stop causing topic-drift. Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 2 00:33:49 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 00:33:49 -0600 Subject: TCPSER4J Modem Emulator development Message-ID: <424E3CCD.7090501@jbrain.com> To address some limitations in my tcpser modem emulator (http://www.jbrain.com/pub/linux/serial), I've been working on a new version that is Java based. Firstly, comments about any hate of Java should be directed to /dev/null or similar :-) tcpser4j is a piece of software that runs on a PC/Mac/Workstation and turns a regular rs232 port into an emulated Hayes compatible modem. Instead of dialing out over phone lines, this modem uses TCP/IP for the connection. tcpser4j can handle both incoming and outgoing calls. It is most useful to place vintage BBS systems online as telnet BBSes. The original version of tcpser was a single 'C' codebase, but to get Win32 support I needed cygwin1.dll. That is a problem at times, and there are a number of older versions of the DLL out there that do not work with the app. As well, baud rates less than 300 seem to be non-functional in the DLL. I can't legally redistribute the DLL in my archive either. Moving to Java addressed those issues, and it also allowed the codebase to become more dynamically loadable, or reloadable. The new version contains the following features found in the original: o Multi-platform support o Support for all normal and extended Hayes AT commands, including multi-command strings o Proper S register support, including changing line terminator, linefeed char, guard time, etc. o Correct AT command response codes, including abbreviated numeric codes and Hayes Smartmodem limited response code emulation. o Tracing abilities (see what is being sent on the wire) o Phone book aliases (alias 555-1212 to servername:portnumber) o Multi-line support (multiple "modems" listen on one IP port, like modem pool) o Proper DCD support (with modified null modem cable) o Very good Hayes modem emulation o Inbound and outbound call support o Support for sending text files or raw text to local and remote sides for events like BUSY, ANSWER, TIMEOUT, NO_ANSWER, etc. o Support for inverting the DCD line o Proper support for +++ Hayes escape sequence o Support for handling NVT sequence negotiation when "dialing" telnet servers The new version hopes to better the original in a number of ways: o Java codebase, can be run on any platform with a 1.2+ JRE o Uses the RXTX Comm Library, available for most platforms. o Extensive logging flexibility. Users should be able to cater logging to their heart's desire o Better support for AT command set. Default S register setting and querying now supported, for example. o Multi-modem bank support (configure 2 modems on 1 port, 3 on another, etc.) o XML based configuration file easier to use than command line switches o Phone book aliases now loaded from file. o Multiple Phone books, with phone book delegation. Modem has a modem book, which checks pool book if no results. pool book checks master book if no match found in pool book. o Support for remote administration GUI o TCP232 option. Connect to the server via TCP/IP port and issue AT modem commands. This is best used with an emulator like VICE that emulates a rs232 interface by conecting to a TCP/IP port. It can also be used to test modem operation. DCD operation is not supported in this mode. o Remote232 option. This allows one to use RS232 ports on on the local machine. If your BBS or vintage PC is by another PC, but you want tcpser4j to run on a server, use this option. the RS232 port need only be on a machine reachable via TCP/IP, so it could be across the house, the state, the country, or the world. All control lines are preserved in this mode. o captive modem support. If configured, soft-modem will listen to IP port and real modem. This will allow existing dialup BBS systems to add telnet option while preserving dialup user support. In this mode, if telnet access is active, captive modem will be placed off-hook, and will be placed on-hook when telnet user logs off. Outbound calls will also be routed, so atdtjbrain.com will go out over IP, while atdt431-7754 will use modem. (this is still under development) o Better support for +++ sequence timing. o Support for extended error code reporting (i.e.: "NO CARRIER (Server Refused Connection)") o Support for adding new modem commands to better emulate specific modem variants I'm pretty much done with the base code, and am looking for some folks who would be interested in helping to test this codebase in some situations with different vintage platforms and send bug reports. As it's an all-new codebase, I need to do a shakedown. Initial testing has been good, but I only have so many test scenarios here. I'm also interested in ideas folks might have. Some have asked for hooks to add a chat room in the unit for folks who get busy signals when dialing in. I'm looking into that option, and some others. Most will be support via dynamic classes. Finally, I'm looking for someone to help with the Remote GUI Administration component. The codebase is available at: http://www.jbrain.com/pub/xplatform/serial/tcpser4j-2.0alpha.zip. Windows users need only unzip and execute run.bat. Other platforms need to install the appropriate RXTXComm JNI library (http://users.frii.com/jarvi/rxtx/) for that platform and tweak the run script to suit. Since I can redistribute the RXTX codebase, I may add the various libraries in a later release. Please send run scripts for other platforms. Notes: I preloaded all of the telnet BBS systems I know of into the master phone book. Please help me add to the list. As well, I created my own protocol for encapsulating serial line status into a TCP/IP datastream with the serial data. I had once saw another application that provided remote serial ports, but was unsuccessful in finding a current reference. If someone has a link and the existing protocol will work for this project, I will change my code to use the existing protocol. I have not prepared a proper README file for tcpser4j as yet. Please use information from the current tcpser project archive, or email me if you have trouble. I have tested the IP232 port option with the WinVICE emulator configured to send serial data to a remote IP port. VICE 1.16 has bugs with TCP/IP serial option, but 1.15 works. However, I have not yet been able to test the ACIA IP emulation in 1.15, and the user port emulation fails if custom RS232 routines (the George Hug routines, for example) are used. Normal KERNAL RS232 works fine. Jim Brain -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 2 01:09:59 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:09:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCPSER4J Modem Emulator development In-Reply-To: <424E3CCD.7090501@jbrain.com> References: <424E3CCD.7090501@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <33398.64.169.63.74.1112425799.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jim Brain wrote: > I can't legally redistribute the DLL in my archive either. Why? What is the license on the C version of tcpser? Xilinx has this problem with some of their tools. They build it as "xygwin1.dll" to avoid conflicts if the user already has an incompatible version of cygwin1.dll installed, and they distribute it with tools that use it. I don't mind too much that you've switched to Java, though for now I'll probably stick with your C version. At least you didn't switch to C++ or Perl. :-) Best regards, Eric From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 2 01:26:17 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 01:26:17 -0600 Subject: TCPSER4J Modem Emulator development In-Reply-To: <33398.64.169.63.74.1112425799.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <424E3CCD.7090501@jbrain.com> <33398.64.169.63.74.1112425799.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <424E4919.5080903@jbrain.com> Eric Smith wrote: >Jim Brain wrote: > > >>I can't legally redistribute the DLL in my archive either. >> >> > >Why? What is the license on the C version of tcpser? > >Xilinx has this problem with some of their tools. They build it >as "xygwin1.dll" to avoid conflicts if the user already has an >incompatible version of cygwin1.dll installed, and they distribute it >with tools that use it. > >I don't mind too much that you've switched to Java, though for now >I'll probably stick with your C version. At least you didn't switch >to C++ or Perl. :-) > >Best regards, >Eric > > I couldn;t find a way to just redistribute the DLL itself. I seem to recall there was some restriction about just packaging up the DLL. My code is under GPL, though, so it wasn;t that. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 2 01:48:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 23:48:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: TCPSER4J Modem Emulator development In-Reply-To: <424E4919.5080903@jbrain.com> References: <424E3CCD.7090501@jbrain.com> <33398.64.169.63.74.1112425799.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424E4919.5080903@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <33620.64.169.63.74.1112428110.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jim wrote: > I couldn;t find a way to just redistribute the DLL itself. I seem to > recall there was some restriction about just packaging up the DLL. > > My code is under GPL, though, so it wasn;t that. The DLL is under GPL plus one extra exception that it doen't require you to GPL your own app that links to it, as long as your app is licensed under an accepted open source license. Anyhow, I don't think you'd have any problem with including the DLL. But I've run into some of the same problems you have with poor serial support in cygwin1.dll. Eric From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 16:42:25 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:42:25 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? In-Reply-To: <424DC2AE.FABDC8CF@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <200504012238.j31McAxi069143@dewey.classiccmp.org> What's a "4-1" operation? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim stephens Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 4:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Old Computer Rescue? did anyone look at the graphic? It isn't sitting in someones driveway, or any garage I can see. I smell a 4-1 operation going on here, aka a rat. how long was this up? Jim John Lawson wrote: > THAT IS A BENDIX G-15 PEOPLE!!!! AAAAAAIIIIEEEEEE NOOOOOO!!!!!! > > I'm waiting for a response back.... From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 16:58:38 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 17:58:38 -0500 Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504012254.j31MsJxA069413@dewey.classiccmp.org> On the off chance that this isn't (duh) an April Fools joke, I just emailed the web site owner... My hunch however is that someone on this list is getting a good laugh!! (Wish I'd thought of it first.) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David H. Barr Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 5:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] On Apr 1, 2005 3:21 PM, Witchy wrote: > > > Looking at the picture on the website, it looks as though this guy > > has a Bendix G-15. Wow. > > > > Compare it to the following picture: > > > > http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-bendix-g15d.jpg > > > > Same thing. (Same picture, too? Hmmm...) > > It looks like Hefty Harry has cut'n'pasted the G15 pic onto a > background shot of old radios, he's even not matched the size of the > chop against the new background and cropped the image! It's not as though there's a shortage of g-15 pictures on the 'net: http://images.google.com/images?q=bendix+g15 -dhbarr. From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 1 17:02:29 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:02:29 -0500 Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050401135803.0234c1f8@popmail.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <200504012258.j31Mw9YE069512@dewey.classiccmp.org> >>>>>> duped by an April 1st shenanigan. Yes but who is responsible? Step forward whoever you are!! LOL, conveniently, Sellam mentioned the other day that he's "on vacation" this week. Hmmm.... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric F. Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 5:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] Dan wrote: > Note that the name of the picture file is foo.jpeg > but who knows. Sure -- I realize that. What I was referring to though was that: http://www.geocities.com/heftyharry/foo.jpg looks as if it is a photoshopped version of the 'real' picture at: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/BRL61-bendix-g15d.jpg. Besides, heftyharry's G-15 doesn't look quite deep enough to actually hold all the guts of the computer. Cropping it off towards the back end, and placing some debris in back of it, is what gave it away. I think I'll just take my medicine here, and admit to the fact that I've been duped by an April 1st shenanigan. :-P From spedraja at ono.com Sat Apr 2 02:25:38 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:25:38 +0200 Subject: [Milsurplus] e-mail address harvesters of QTH.net References: <199.3c3091f4.2f7f778d@cs.com> <200504012213530529.29403C3A@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <003f01c5375d$8fd256a0$1502a8c0@ACER> Hi. > Contrary to popular belief, wolves are not the mindless "man eaters" that they are often made out to be. They are, in fact, pretty timid where humans are concerned. Unfortunately, "timid" does not make for sensational headlines or even more sensationalistic movies, so wolves are often made out to be 102% opposite what they are in reality. Something that I can assert living like I do in a land with living wolves (yet) in the forests. The unique sin of these animals is the preference for the sheeps and occasionally cows. This is a cause of a deep hate from the cattle breeders, and occasional hunts. But I don't remember any kind of attack from wolves to men during my last 40 years of life. Not same in the case of savage dogs, abandoned for their owners. These killed over six years ago one poor old man in one way that comes along one forest here, inner inside the country. Bad beasts literally. CHeers Sergio From gordon at gjcp.net Sat Apr 2 03:49:28 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 10:49:28 +0100 Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <200504012334.j31NYY59002827@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504012334.j31NYY59002827@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <424E6AA8.4090805@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > Found this article while trolling usenet. Looks like there might be > some interesting stuff. Plus, who can argue with Stanley Kubrick? > > Anyone know this guy? > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/msg/0c88a96cd23e2beb > > -brad > April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. Gordon. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 2 04:04:01 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:04:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computers...Aprils Fools??? In-Reply-To: William Maddox "Re: Computers...Aprils Fools???" (Apr 1, 21:18) References: <20050402051842.49914.qmail@web81308.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10504021104.ZM23379@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 1 2005, 21:18, William Maddox wrote: > --- "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > There are a few "rescues"/"scraps" that I **REALLY** hope are > > hoaxes.otherwise I will be in jail for murder. > > PDP-1's G-15's if *EITHER* of these went from intact system to > > the skip, it WOULD be a crime. > After close examination of the pictures, I am > certain that the PDP-1 shown in the pictures is > in fact the one at the Computer History Museum. Didn't anyone read the whole thread? Or look at "Mike Rowe"'s email address (backwards)? Or the actual sender in the headers? :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Apr 2 05:51:36 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 12:51:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <200504012329.PAA20754@floodgap.com> References: <2499.192.168.0.3.1112396508.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> from Witchy at "Apr 2, 5 00:01:48 am" <200504012329.PAA20754@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3296.192.168.0.3.1112442696.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> In that case (along with everything else) I'd best leave this one on the >> shelf! > > Why? It's not very expensive RAM and it's easy to come by. Most vendors > still carry it, at least on this side of the pond (I can think of a number > of mail-order memory shops that stock it inexpensively). Because by the time I've spent hunting the various bits down and paid shipping I could've bought a complete machine :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 07:12:49 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 08:12:49 -0500 Subject: Old Computer Rescue? In-Reply-To: <200504012238.j31McAxi069143@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <424DC2AE.FABDC8CF@msm.umr.edu> <200504012238.j31McAxi069143@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 5:42 PM, Evan wrote: > What's a "4-1" operation? > April 1st. vax, 9000 From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Apr 2 09:40:29 2005 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:40:29 -0600 Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: <200504020151.j321pZuB071783@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504020151.j321pZuB071783@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 19:51 -0600 4/1/05, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 13:19:09 -0800 (PST) >From: Cameron Kaiser >Subject: Re: Sparc5 bits wanted >.... > > > The SS5 uses a JDEC 5v SIMM similar to Tsunami based Mac's. I seem to >> > recall that 5v FPM Mac SIMMs will work in a SS5 >> >> That's not a G3 then? I've got one full of memory I can, er, 'borrow' :) > >No. This is RAM from the older PCI Power Macs, such as the 7300 (or in >this case, the 9500, which is the aforementioned Tsunami). The G3s were >the first Macs to use SDRAM. > Is this the stuff you are talking about? If so no idea whether this is a good price or not. Not affilliated with Other World Computing, but a satisfied customer. http://eshop.macsales.com/Item_XLR8YourMac.cfm?ID=6454&Item=OWC5MD128MBE2 -- - Mark 210-522-6025, temporary cell 240-375-2995 From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Apr 2 10:52:33 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:52:33 +0200 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? Message-ID: <9BD5AA1E-A397-11D9-A6B3-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Anyone has a pointer to a userguide for the above HPIB drive ? Bitsavers came out empty. I got a non-functional unit and now need the know how to change the internal HD ( a 15 MB ST419 unit ) and format it. I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself Target usage : the much needed HD for my HP IPC ! Jos Dreesen From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Apr 2 11:02:53 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:02:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sparc5 bits wanted In-Reply-To: from Mark Tapley at "Apr 2, 5 09:40:29 am" Message-ID: <200504021702.JAA09526@floodgap.com> > > > > The SS5 uses a JDEC 5v SIMM similar to Tsunami based Mac's. I seem to > > > > recall that 5v FPM Mac SIMMs will work in a SS5 > > > That's not a G3 then? I've got one full of memory I can, er, 'borrow' :) > > No. This is RAM from the older PCI Power Macs, such as the 7300 (or in > > this case, the 9500, which is the aforementioned Tsunami). The G3s were > > the first Macs to use SDRAM. > Is this the stuff you are talking about? If so no idea whether this > is a good price or not. Not affilliated with Other World Computing, > but a satisfied customer. > > http://eshop.macsales.com/Item_XLR8YourMac.cfm?ID=6454&Item=OWC5MD128MBE2 Yes, that should work, although I don't know if the SS5 cares about whether it's 2K or 4K refresh. This is what MemoryX offers for the Network Server 500, which is pretty picky about RAM, but seems to work fine in my ANS: http://www.memoryx.net/worser500.html (btw, ignore the max RAM; it's wrong, and it's a Network Server, not a Workgroup Server). Oddly, MemoryX does carry SPARC memory, but they don't have anything there for the SS5. As with Mark, I'm only a satisfied customer, not an affiliate. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. -- Shakespeare --------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 2 11:22:58 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 09:22:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Milsurplus] e-mail address harvesters of QTH.net In-Reply-To: <200504012213530529.29403C3A@192.168.42.129> References: <199.3c3091f4.2f7f778d@cs.com> <200504012213530529.29403C3A@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <20050402092029.B99104@shell.lmi.net> > >eBay, PayPal or on-line banks. Those are all recognizable out of hand, > >and can be treated as wolves are. On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Bruce Lane wrote: > Hold on a moment here! > Picking a nit... You could have picked a better analogy. Wolves > are sociable critters. I would greatly prefer their company to that of > any spammer. > . . . > If I may... The phishing schemes (and spam in general) come from > people (and I use the term loosely) who have all the redeeming social > characteristics of toxic slime mold. I would greatly prefer the company of toxic slime mold to that of any spammer. From vp at cs.drexel.edu Sat Apr 2 13:16:02 2005 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 14:16:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? Message-ID: <20050402191602.17B413BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> I have a 9133H connected to my IPC. I have the 9133H manual and the only reason that I have not bothered to scan it is because it contains no useful info AT ALL! It was written by brain dead people (whenever a manual starts with "Don't let the terminology scare you", you know that the manual is not worth the paper its printed on). Anyway it says zip about the configuration switch other than "it changes disc formatting". Thanks! There are many different models in the 9133 family and they are VERY different between each other. Early ones are amigo, while later ones are CS-80. Anyway the setting that works for me is Configuration switch in position 1, address in position 0. With these settings, I get: /dev/A built-in floppy /dev/D000 9133H hard drive /dev/D001 9133H floppy Connect the external HP-IB hard drive and look in /dev to see the name(s) assigned to the hard drive. Then use the format_disc utility (int he Utilities diskette) to format it. A lot of software for the IPC is available at: http://www.coho.org/~pete/IPC/integral.html There is also an ongoing discussion at http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=70969 Best Regards **vp From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 13:35:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:35:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been wracking my brains and googling for most of an hour... ISTR > there _used_ to be a program that shipped with UNIX (at least > BSD-flavors, if nothing else) that could take a string as a command > line arg, and print either a punch card image or papertape renderings > to stdout. > > Does anyone remember the _name_ of this program? Not what you're looking for, but cute nonetheless: http://www.kloth.net/services/cardpunch.php Constructs a fairly nice graphic image (in JPG or PNG) of a punch card with whatever text string you give it. Allows several different character sets. Neat-o! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 13:37:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:37:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: <200503301354.FAA15276@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. > > > Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid > > > toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. > > > > You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my > > housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't > > understand much of the dialog :-) > > I like the bit where they subtitle it during the party. ^_^ Only because the music is so loud, so they have to. No vintage computer sightings in that one, but a great movie all the same! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brain at jbrain.com Sat Apr 2 13:45:38 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:45:38 -0600 Subject: TCPSER4J Modem Emulator development In-Reply-To: <33620.64.169.63.74.1112428110.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <424E3CCD.7090501@jbrain.com> <33398.64.169.63.74.1112425799.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <424E4919.5080903@jbrain.com> <33620.64.169.63.74.1112428110.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <424EF662.2060306@jbrain.com> Eric Smith wrote: >Jim wrote: > > >>I couldn;t find a way to just redistribute the DLL itself. I seem to >>recall there was some restriction about just packaging up the DLL. >> >>My code is under GPL, though, so it wasn;t that. >> >> > >The DLL is under GPL plus one extra exception that it doen't require you >to GPL your own app that links to it, as long as your app is licensed >under an accepted open source license. > >Anyhow, I don't think you'd have any problem with including the DLL. > >But I've run into some of the same problems you have with poor serial >support in cygwin1.dll. > >Eric > > I probably should have reworded the statement. I wasn't sure I could redistribute it legally, and I was having trouble pointing people to a place to just get the DLL. I checked again last night, and it appears the only way to obtain the DLL from cygwin.com is to run the steup and deselect everything. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 13:49:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:49:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: <200503301148.MAA04400@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > I've just received my copy of a new BBC/Granta book "Electronic Brains, > Stories from the dawn of the Computer Age", author Mike Hally. > ISBN 1 86207 663 4 > > I've not read it yet, but from a quick flip through it looks like an > interesting, non-technical, account of the early years of computers > in the USA, UK, Russia and Australia. > > Just thought you might be interested... > > Interest in classic/old computers seems to be entering the mainstream > these days. Sneak Preview: http://www.vintage.org/library.php This is a new "library" feature I'm adding to the VCF website. It includes books, videos, and books on cassette, all on computer history subjects. 99.9% link to the Amazon page where you can place an order for convenience. It still needs some better organization, and perhaps a search function will come later. In the meantime, it's a great resource for finding a huge selection of books on all manner of computer history. I think interested parties will find it very extensive. Suggestions always welcome. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 13:56:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 11:56:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Couldn't you use the DOS subst command to fake out the C: drive to some > higher-level folder, i.e. make your D:\scratch folder into the C: drive? > Directories don't have the filesystem limits that the root directory of > C: does. > > This of course, would 'map over' your C: drive (is that allowed by subst > ?) DOS 3.3 doesn't allow this, otherwise the solution would've been simple ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Sat Apr 2 14:40:17 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:40:17 +0200 Subject: Tools for arching standard floppies Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050402224003.033b3430@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, I was wondering if any of you know any good free tools for archiving floppy's on a standard IBM compatible PC ? Dont have a catweasel yet but do want to archive some standard floppy disks already. So if anyone has any good idea's, please let me know. Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.mansier.net From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 2 14:39:45 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 14:39:45 -0600 Subject: Tools for arching standard floppies In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050402224003.033b3430@pop.xs4all.nl> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050402224003.033b3430@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <424F0311.5020401@mdrconsult.com> Stefan wrote: > Hi, > > I was wondering if any of you know any good free tools for archiving > floppy's on a standard IBM compatible PC ? > Dont have a catweasel yet but do want to archive some standard floppy > disks already. So if anyone has any good idea's, please let me know. dd? 22disk, anadisk, etc. all work on "PC-standard" formats, too. Speaking of Catweasel, is there a web page or resource listing all the formats and disk types for which there are Catweasel drivers? I know of at least a couple of drivers besides those supported by Individual Computers, but I expect there are many more. Doc From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 2 14:48:24 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 15:48:24 -0500 Subject: New book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424F0518.2000102@atarimuseum.com> Sellam, That is great resource of info.... I can see I'll be expanding my library of books & video's... Thank you for putting that together. Curt Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > > > >>I've just received my copy of a new BBC/Granta book "Electronic Brains, >>Stories from the dawn of the Computer Age", author Mike Hally. >>ISBN 1 86207 663 4 >> >>I've not read it yet, but from a quick flip through it looks like an >>interesting, non-technical, account of the early years of computers >>in the USA, UK, Russia and Australia. >> >>Just thought you might be interested... >> >>Interest in classic/old computers seems to be entering the mainstream >>these days. >> >> > >Sneak Preview: > >http://www.vintage.org/library.php > >This is a new "library" feature I'm adding to the VCF website. It >includes books, videos, and books on cassette, all on computer history >subjects. 99.9% link to the Amazon page where you can place an order for >convenience. > >It still needs some better organization, and perhaps a search function >will come later. In the meantime, it's a great resource for finding a >huge selection of books on all manner of computer history. I think >interested parties will find it very extensive. > >Suggestions always welcome. > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 4/1/2005 From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 15:53:39 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:53:39 -0500 Subject: what is this Qbus board "EMULEX H70A" ? Message-ID: Ebay auction #5765010603 the picture is at http://i9.ebayimg.com/01/i/03/c4/1b/ab_1_b.JPG From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 2 16:47:41 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:47:41 -0500 Subject: what's missing in this vax780? References: Message-ID: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> ePay item# 5764980327 in case this stupid search link doesn't work http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5764980327&rd=1 there are two blocks of slots empty - had the memory been stripped? Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to be rx02's somewhere? nice spelling! h " DEC DITIGAL CI 3 NODE, SWITCH MODEL #11780-FE USED DITIGAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION CI 3 NODE, SWITCH USED MODEL #11780-FE SN : FX03049 Hz 60 VOLTS 120/ 208 3 PH AMP 24PH 4W+G LISTED EDP EQUI. 708A NFPA TYPE 2 WAS BUILT 1/10 /84 ,USED ,DO NOT KNOW IF UNIT WORKS. FOR PAYMENT WETAKE BUSINESS CHECKS ,CASHIERS CHECKS ,MONEY ORDERS AND PAYPAL.WE WILL SHIP THIS ITEM VIA. MOTOR FRIEHT OR THE BUYER CAN PICK UP THE ITEM AT OUR LOCATION .THE WIEGHT IS APPROX. 500-1000 LBS." From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 2 16:52:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:52:33 -0500 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <20050402191602.17B413BACF@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050402175233.00b0e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:16 PM 4/2/05 -0500, you wrote: > >I have a 9133H connected to my IPC. I have the 9133H manual and the >only reason that I have not bothered to scan it is because it contains >no useful info AT ALL! It was written by brain dead people (whenever a >manual starts with "Don't let the terminology scare you", you know that >the manual is not worth the paper its printed on). Anyway it says zip >about the configuration switch other than "it changes disc formatting". >Thanks! > >There are many different models in the 9133 family and they are VERY >different between each other. Early ones are amigo, while later ones >are CS-80. Correction, the later ones are SubSet-80 (literally a subset of the CS-80). 9133H = 19.92 Mb (depending on the system) 9133L = 40 Mb " 9133V and 9133VX = 5 Mb " 9133D = 15 Mb " 9133V and 9133VX option 010 = 9.6 Mb " I THINK there are also A and B models but I don't have their specs. Note: 9134 is exactly the same as a 9133 but without the floppy drive. ALL the other specs apply. My notes say "HP 9133XV/9134XV are Amigo drives and are configurable as four 5Mb drives for use on the HP-85, etc". This configuration looks like four 1.15Mb HP 9895 8" floppy disk drives to an HP-85. also "Jumpers Capacity # of volumes A,B 5Mb 1 A 5Mb 4 A,B,C 10Mb 1 A,C 15Mb 1" I don't remember where I found that but it looks like HP uses a common board for the various models and sets the capacity to match the drive via the jumpers. and "256 bytes/sector set by a jumper of the board" Some systems REQUIRE 256 bytes/sector while others use 1024. > >Anyway the setting that works for me is Configuration switch in >position 1, address in position 0. The configuration switch sets the number of volumes (partitions) to whatever the switch is set to. A "0" or "9" sets up a single volume that is uneraseable or some such. I can't think of a good reason to use a setting of anything other than "1". Joe > >With these settings, I get: > >/dev/A built-in floppy >/dev/D000 9133H hard drive >/dev/D001 9133H floppy > >Connect the external HP-IB hard drive and look in /dev to see the >name(s) assigned to the hard drive. Then use the format_disc utility >(int he Utilities diskette) to format it. > >A lot of software for the IPC is available at: > http://www.coho.org/~pete/IPC/integral.html > >There is also an ongoing discussion at > http://www.hpmuseum.org/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/hpmuseum/forum.cgi?read=70969 > >Best Regards > >**vp > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 2 16:24:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:24:21 -0500 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <9BD5AA1E-A397-11D9-A6B3-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:52 PM 4/2/05 +0200, you wrote: > >Anyone has a pointer to a userguide for the above HPIB drive ? >Bitsavers came out empty. > >I got a non-functional unit and now need the know how to change the >internal HD ( a 15 MB ST419 unit ) and format it. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! You've obviously never seen the "User's Guide" for any of the HP disk drives! They spend 20 pages telling you how to plug it in and little else. Change the internal hard drive! Who are kidding? HP won't even tell you how to change the fuse! >I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself Most HP drives aren't. I've only found ONE that would. I THINK it was a 9153 and it used a ST-225. But it's worth a try. However, most of the HP drives use oddball drives that I was never able to find replacements for. If you do find a replacement drive, install it and just use the normal format utility for your system. Most HP systems call it "Initialize". >From what I can tell it usually does the equivelent to a high level fromat (sets up directory, FAT, etc) but not the Low Level fromatting/disk testing so it frequently fails with replacement drives. Seriously, I pretty sure that I have the 9133 User's Guide but it really is useless. IIRC the only usefull thing that I found in it is a chart showing the formated capacity under different HP computers and OSs. Joe > >Target usage : the much needed HD for my HP IPC ! > > > Jos Dreesen > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 17:00:42 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:00:42 -0500 Subject: what's missing in this vax780? In-Reply-To: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2005 5:47 PM, Heinz Wolter wrote: > ePay item# 5764980327 in case this stupid search link doesn't work > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5764980327&rd=1 > there are two blocks of slots empty - had the memory been stripped? Couldn't tell you about memory, but are those two black blocks empty or do they have a cover over them? They don't look like unpopulated backplane slots to me. > Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to be rx02's > somewhere? My recollection is that there should be a single-drive RX01 (same boards, only one drive mech plugged in) somewhere near the bottom of the rack. I'm sure others can give more authoritative answers. -ethan From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 2 17:08:18 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:08:18 +0100 Subject: what's missing in this vax780? In-Reply-To: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <00c201c537d8$dcc44100$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Heinz Wolter wrote: > ePay item# 5764980327 in case this stupid search link doesn't > work > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5764980 327&rd=1 > there are two blocks of slots empty - had the memory been > stripped? > Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to > be rx02's somewhere? Where it says "DITIGAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION CI 3 NODE, SWITCH USED" that's basically meaningless. The "3" in the photo just means that at some time in the past it was (probably) #3 node on the CI. There are unlikely to be two other CI nodes involved in this auction! I'm not sure what is stuffed into the main box, but it was certainly possible to have the RX02 some distance from the main machine cabs. $1500 is a tad optimistic for a machine in unknown condition! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 2 17:20:27 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:20:27 -0500 Subject: what's missing in this vax780? In-Reply-To: References: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <200504021820.27593.pat@computer-refuge.org> Ethan Dicks declared on Saturday 02 April 2005 06:00 pm: > On Apr 2, 2005 5:47 PM, Heinz Wolter wrote: > > ePay item# 5764980327 in case this stupid search link doesn't work > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=576 > >4980327&rd=1 > > > > there are two blocks of slots empty - had the memory been stripped? > > Couldn't tell you about memory, but are those two black blocks empty > or do they have a cover over them? They don't look like unpopulated > backplane slots to me. Those are 'covers' that slide back and forth over the cards (sliding plexiglass doors;). The left-most backplane is the KA780 (CPU), the next one to the right is memory - it appears to have 8 memory boards. The next two card cages are DW780s or RH780s (unibus or massbus interface boxes). > > Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to be > > rx02's somewhere? > > My recollection is that there should be a single-drive RX01 (same > boards, only one drive mech plugged in) somewhere near the bottom of > the rack. I'm sure others can give more authoritative answers. There's an RX01 on the right, bottom (the silver colored box). The drive faces upwards (only a single-drive not a double-drive), and swings out of the front of the VAX. This guy can't spell and has no idea (imho) what these things are worth. The last 11/780 "untested" I saw on ebay went for $70ish to Dave McGuire, I picked one up from the same seller for $350ish which included a Data General Eclipse MV1400, Sun 3/180, DEC Rainbow, a pile of fujitsu 14" SMD 800-900MB HDDs, an 11/750, and some other stuff I can't remember anymore (including a bunch of BA11s with UNIBUS cards and one UNIBUS SCSI card in it ;). A bunch of it wasn't 100% working, but the stuff I've fixed so far hasn't been difficult to repair. I'd say a price of $100-$200 depending on how much you really want it is a better price, considering that it may not be functional. If you have more questions, I can tell you what mine looks like for reference. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 2 17:27:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 15:27:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: what's missing in this vax780? In-Reply-To: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <33246.64.169.63.74.1112484421.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Heinz wrote about a VAX 11/780 on eBay: > there are two blocks of slots empty - had the memory been stripped? Looks to me like everything is there except a few of the sliding plastic panels (the things with the horizontal red stripe). Can't tell about the modules behind the panels, though. > Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to be rx02's > somewhere? There's a single-drive RX01 mounted vertically on a swinging door. You can see the top of it just right of the middle at the bottom. $1500 is way too much, though. Eric From mcesari at comcast.net Sat Apr 2 17:33:41 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:33:41 -0700 Subject: what's missing in this vax780? In-Reply-To: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2005, at 3:47 PM, Heinz Wolter wrote: > ePay item# 5764980327 in case this stupid search link doesn't work > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&category=1479&item=5764980327&rd=1 > there are two blocks of slots empty - had the memory been stripped? > Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to be rx02's > somewhere? > nice spelling! > h > " > DEC DITIGAL CI 3 NODE, SWITCH MODEL #11780-FE USED > DITIGAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION CI 3 NODE, SWITCH USED > > MODEL #11780-FE SN : FX03049 Hz 60 VOLTS 120/ 208 3 PH AMP > 24PH > 4W+G LISTED EDP EQUI. 708A NFPA TYPE 2 > > WAS BUILT 1/10 /84 ,USED ,DO NOT KNOW IF UNIT WORKS. FOR PAYMENT > WETAKE > BUSINESS CHECKS ,CASHIERS CHECKS ,MONEY ORDERS AND PAYPAL.WE WILL SHIP > THIS > ITEM VIA. MOTOR FRIEHT OR THE BUYER CAN PICK UP THE ITEM AT OUR > LOCATION > .THE WIEGHT IS APPROX. 500-1000 LBS." > The memory frame looks to be an MS780E. There are 3 cards in the center: Left memory ctlr., SBI interface, and right memory ctlr. There are 8 memory cards (four on each side) either 1 MB or 4MB each. The single RX01 is mounted face up on the lower right of the photo. On the lower left (top to bottom) are battery backups for the memory and the TOD clock with the 11/03 console at the bottom. I can't see everything, but a CI780 and RH780 are visible. There should also be a DW780 (unibus adapter) between the cpu and memory frames (hiding behind one of the covers). It appears as if the left side panel is missing. You'd have to ask the seller if all the cables and unibus expansion cabinet is included. $1500 is a bit much without disk and tape drives. And the star coupler and hsc50, to boot. Mike From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Apr 2 17:34:07 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 15:34:07 -0800 Subject: what's missing in this vax780? In-Reply-To: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <007501c537d5$fa949390$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <424F2BEF.5090800@pacbell.net> Heinz Wolter wrote: > Looks like the console 11 is intact..aren't there supposed to be rx02's > somewhere? There is a single drive, mounted vertically so that the disk loads from the top. It is located at the lower right side of the cabinet. I was poking around inside of one of these a few weeks ago. --Bill From fmc at reanimators.org Sat Apr 2 17:41:34 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 15:41:34 -0800 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> (Joe R.'s message of "Sat, 02 Apr 2005 17:24:21 -0500") References: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504022341.j32NfYWD074978@lots.reanimators.org> Joe R. wrote (after Jos Dreesen): >>I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself > > Most HP drives aren't. I've only found ONE that would. I THINK it was a > 9153 and it used a ST-225. But it's worth a try. However, most of the HP > drives use oddball drives that I was never able to find replacements for. > If you do find a replacement drive, install it and just use the normal > format utility for your system. Most HP systems call it "Initialize". > From what I can tell it usually does the equivelent to a high level fromat > (sets up directory, FAT, etc) but not the Low Level fromatting/disk testing > so it frequently fails with replacement drives. At least some CS/80 discs support the CS/80 low-level initialization command. It's generally not clear how to do this, but if you go trawl Google Groups for "mediainit vGD" you may find a transcript of how I got HP-UX 7.05 to low-level format a 7946 disc so long ago that it's on topic. The message doesn't explain how I figured this out, but it was pretty much a matter of running strings on the mediainit binary, looking for a getopt()-style string to see what command-line arguments it was being used to parse, and trying stuff to see what happened. I think I had the 7942/7946 service manual handy too and it had some things that suggested appropriate responses to some of mediainit's prompts. No idea whether this works with Integral PCs, or with SS/80 or Amigo drives. -Frank McConnell From classiccmp at iank.org.uk Sat Apr 2 17:51:07 2005 From: classiccmp at iank.org.uk (Ian K) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 00:51:07 +0100 Subject: Hitachi CDR-1503S info Message-ID: <4d55882225classiccmp@iank.org.uk> Hello All I'm looking for information on the Hitachi CDR-1503S CDR drive. What it can be used for and the interface it uses. Regards Ian K From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 2 17:15:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:15:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: <20050401164956.K740@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Apr 1, 5 04:50:49 pm Message-ID: > > The DG drives have the same system, a N.O. relay with a huge cap > yanks the linear motor home, should power fail. ANd there's the DEC used a little NiCd battery pack, an NC relay contact (in other words, closed when the relay was de-energised, it was normally energised when the drive was in operation so that the contact was open then) and a microswitch that opened when the positioner was fully retracted. At least on the RK05... The RK07 had something similar, at least there's a NiCd pack clipped under the chassis. Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide the emergency retraction current? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 2 17:29:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:29:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <424E6AA8.4090805@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Apr 2, 5 10:49:28 am Message-ID: > April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. I once knew a chap called Mike Roe. He was a very clueful hacker (in the original sense of course), and I remember many pleasant evenings tinkering with ASR33s, etc... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 2 17:33:29 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:33:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <9BD5AA1E-A397-11D9-A6B3-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Apr 2, 5 06:52:33 pm Message-ID: > > > Anyone has a pointer to a userguide for the above HPIB drive ? What's the suffix letter? There are many units that claim to be '9133' and which are totally different internally.... I've worked on the 9133H, which IIRC has an ST225 inside. > Bitsavers came out empty. > > I got a non-functional unit and now need the know how to change the > internal HD ( a 15 MB ST419 unit ) and format it. > I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself That information is not in the user guide, nor in any other manual that I've ever seen (I don't think it's even in the service manual, you were expected to buy a pre-formatted drive from HP :-(). I have no idea if the standard firmware can do an LLF. I am pretty sure the hardware, at least in the 9133H, can, but you might need a special EPROM or soemthing to do it. One day I must seriously get among the firmware of the 9133H -- I have a fair understnading of the hardware now (it's actually pretty simple), but there are many jumpers that just set levels on input ports to the 6809 processor that I don't fully understand. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 2 17:43:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:43:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 2, 5 05:24:21 pm Message-ID: > >I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself > > Most HP drives aren't. I've only found ONE that would. I THINK it was a > 9153 and it used a ST-225. But it's worth a try. However, most of the HP I think you've mis-rememnbered. The 9153 (and the 9154, which is the same unit without a floppy) use a special HP drive. It has a 40 pin connector, carrying power and what seems to be 'raw' data (i.e. more like an ST506 interface than IDE or SCSI). I've not figured it out yet -- there are custom chips at both ends of the cable and looking with a logic analyser didn't intentify all the signals -- yet. I beleive (although I am not certain as all I have is the 9154) that the 9153 uses the same floppy drive as the 9114B. That is, the later half-height unit with the single 34 pin power/data connector. There's a switch or link on the controller board of most of these hard disk units to select whether the floppy is installed. If you pull the floppy drive for any reason, yuo should flip this switch/link so that the thing passes the self-test. The 9133H does use an ST225, or at least mine do. But I found that if you stick in any old ST225 (i.e. one without the HP low-level format) then it'll fail the power-on diagnostics and you can't do anything with it. Therefore low-level formatting must have been done in one of 4 ways : 1) An undocumented command, accepted even when the diagnostics failed. 2) A particular set of link/switch settings (which I don't know) 3) A special firmware EPROM 4) Another formatting device that was used to pre-format the drives before they were stuck in the 9133 unit. I have no idea which of these is the case. > drives use oddball drives that I was never able to find replacements for. > If you do find a replacement drive, install it and just use the normal > format utility for your system. Most HP systems call it "Initialize". > >From what I can tell it usually does the equivelent to a high level fromat Yes, the high-level format is possible on all the HP drive units I've come accross. But not the low-leve one. > (sets up directory, FAT, etc) but not the Low Level fromatting/disk testing > so it frequently fails with replacement drives. That, alas, is my experience too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 2 17:47:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 00:47:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050402175233.00b0e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 2, 5 05:52:33 pm Message-ID: > I don't remember where I found that but it looks like HP uses a > common board for the various models and sets the capacity to match the > drive via the jumpers. I beleive there are at least 2 main versions -- the older one in the all-metal case (which, IIRC had separate floppy and hard disk controller boards, linked ot the same HPIB connector) and the later one in the 'shoebox' with the plastic front/top cover. I have only the latter. There's a set of 4 links on the controller PCB that are labelled 'Ident Sra'. They link to an input port on the 6809 bus, and seem to define the drive geometry. I do know that this is checked on power-up, and if the link setting doesn't match the drive, you get an error. I presume there's a look-up table in the firmware somewhere, but I've not looked for it yet. -tony From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Apr 2 18:48:05 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 16:48:05 -0800 Subject: possible dec equipment References: Message-ID: <001301c537e6$cc304b50$6401a8c0@hal9000> He had a son named "Chip" .... Regards, Steven C. > > April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. > > I once knew a chap called Mike Roe. He was a very clueful hacker (in the > original sense of course), and I remember many pleasant evenings > tinkering with ASR33s, etc... > > -tony > From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Apr 2 19:00:23 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:00:23 -0800 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <000701c52ced$ca1f3000$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <001901c537e8$841e0f30$6401a8c0@hal9000> Sorry, another case of the elusive disappearing link. C and H can be had at: www.candhsales.com or 1-800-325-9465. I'll blame it on a prostate condition.... Regards, Steven C. > I've found C and H surplus here in California to be an excellent source for > all kinds of semi-exotic parts ( like capacitors ) for old Tek and HP test > equipment, old computers, Tesla Coils and Ham Radio gear. Their link is > below and they have a great catalog they'll send you for free. If you call > them they will do there best to help you and not just try to get you off the > phone. They are located in Pasadena and will ship to just about anywhere ( > except the International Space Station ). > > Best regards, and good luck, Steven C. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 2 18:37:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:37:02 -0500 Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: References: <20050401164956.K740@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050402193702.00930c60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:15 AM 4/3/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> The DG drives have the same system, a N.O. relay with a huge cap >> yanks the linear motor home, should power fail. ANd there's the > >DEC used a little NiCd battery pack, an NC relay contact (in other words, >closed when the relay was de-energised, it was normally energised when >the drive was in operation so that the contact was open then) and a >microswitch that opened when the positioner was fully retracted. At least >on the RK05... > >The RK07 had something similar, at least there's a NiCd pack clipped >under the chassis. Burroughs disk drives also used a NiCad pack to withdraw the heads. They used SAFT batteries and they were an absolute POS! We were constantly replacing disks and disk heads because of them. I'd strongly advise anyone that has a drive that uses NiCads to replace them before they even turn the thing on. AND use a GOOD brand of batteries. Saft batteries are S$%T IMO! I've had good results with the JAPANESE made Sanyos and Panasonic bateries. > >Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide >the emergency retraction current? The drives used in PC do that and have for many years but I never saw a mainframe disk drive that did. Joe > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 2 18:45:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:45:03 -0500 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050402194503.00930130@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:43 AM 4/3/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself >> >> Most HP drives aren't. I've only found ONE that would. I THINK it was a >> 9153 and it used a ST-225. But it's worth a try. However, most of the HP > >I think you've mis-rememnbered. The 9153 (and the 9154, which is the same >unit without a floppy) use a special HP drive. You're correct. I looked at my disk drive notes later and found a note that the 9153 did use an HP drive. But I'm pretty certain that the ONE time I was able to replace a drive and format it and have it work was on a drive that used a ST-225. I know at least one model of the 9133 uses the ST-225 but don't remember which one it was without looking at my notes however I THINK it was a 15Mb model. It has a 40 pin connector, >carrying power and what seems to be 'raw' data (i.e. more like an ST506 >interface than IDE or SCSI). I've not figured it out yet -- there are >custom chips at both ends of the cable and looking with a logic analyser >didn't intentify all the signals -- yet. > >I beleive (although I am not certain as all I have is the 9154) that the >9153 uses the same floppy drive as the 9114B. That is, the later >half-height unit with the single 34 pin power/data connector. > >There's a switch or link on the controller board of most of these hard >disk units to select whether the floppy is installed. If you pull the >floppy drive for any reason, yuo should flip this switch/link so that the >thing passes the self-test. > >The 9133H does use an ST225, or at least mine do. But I found that if you >stick in any old ST225 (i.e. one without the HP low-level format) then >it'll fail the power-on diagnostics and you can't do anything with it. >Therefore low-level formatting must have been done in one of 4 ways : > >1) An undocumented command, accepted even when the diagnostics failed. >2) A particular set of link/switch settings (which I don't know) >3) A special firmware EPROM >4) Another formatting device that was used to pre-format the drives >before they were stuck in the 9133 unit. > >I have no idea which of these is the case. > >> drives use oddball drives that I was never able to find replacements for. >> If you do find a replacement drive, install it and just use the normal >> format utility for your system. Most HP systems call it "Initialize". >> >From what I can tell it usually does the equivelent to a high level fromat > >Yes, the high-level format is possible on all the HP drive units I've >come accross. But not the low-leve one. > >> (sets up directory, FAT, etc) but not the Low Level fromatting/disk testing >> so it frequently fails with replacement drives. > >That, alas, is my experience too. I agree completely. Joe >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 2 18:49:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 19:49:47 -0500 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050402175233.00b0e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050402194947.00b06880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:47 AM 4/3/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I don't remember where I found that but it looks like HP uses a >> common board for the various models and sets the capacity to match the >> drive via the jumpers. > >I beleive there are at least 2 main versions -- the older one in the >all-metal case (which, IIRC had separate floppy and hard disk controller >boards, linked ot the same HPIB connector) and the later one in the >'shoebox' with the plastic front/top cover. There are at least two versions. One is the white square box about 13" square and there is the older model that was in a biege box that was about 17" wide and the ends were rounded. As I recall it had vents in the front and rear. You don't see the old version very often but I have a couple of them here. I think there were also a couple of different versions of the unit in the new style box. Joe > >I have only the latter. There's a set of 4 links on the controller PCB >that are labelled 'Ident Sra'. They link to an input port on the 6809 >bus, and seem to define the drive geometry. I do know that this is >checked on power-up, and if the link setting doesn't match the drive, you >get an error. I presume there's a look-up table in the firmware >somewhere, but I've not looked for it yet. > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 2 19:14:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 20:14:37 -0500 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <200504022341.j32NfYWD074978@lots.reanimators.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050402201437.0092fd10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:41 PM 4/2/05 -0800, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote (after Jos Dreesen): >>>I hope the 9133 is intelligent enough to format the disk itself >> >> Most HP drives aren't. I've only found ONE that would. I THINK it was a >> 9153 and it used a ST-225. But it's worth a try. However, most of the HP >> drives use oddball drives that I was never able to find replacements for. >> If you do find a replacement drive, install it and just use the normal >> format utility for your system. Most HP systems call it "Initialize". >> From what I can tell it usually does the equivelent to a high level fromat >> (sets up directory, FAT, etc) but not the Low Level fromatting/disk testing >> so it frequently fails with replacement drives. > >At least some CS/80 discs support the CS/80 low-level initialization >command. It's generally not clear how to do this, but if you go trawl >Google Groups for "mediainit vGD" you may find a transcript of how I >got HP-UX 7.05 to low-level format a 7946 disc so long ago that it's >on topic. Interesting! There's no mention of that in the 7942/7946 manual. The same method might be usable on other drives IF you have access to a HP-UX machine. BTW I do have a HP 9133H manual. Also manuals for the 9133V/VX, 9122D&S, 9122C, 7042/7946, 7957/7958 and 9127. The HP 7942 and 7946 are really cool IMO. They have built-in hard drive and tape drive. You can copy the tape to the hard drive or vice versa with no CPU connected and just using the front panel controls. Joe > >The message doesn't explain how I figured this out, but it was pretty >much a matter of running strings on the mediainit binary, looking for >a getopt()-style string to see what command-line arguments it was >being used to parse, and trying stuff to see what happened. I think I >had the 7942/7946 service manual handy too and it had some things that >suggested appropriate responses to some of mediainit's prompts. > >No idea whether this works with Integral PCs, or with SS/80 or Amigo >drives. > >-Frank McConnell > From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Apr 2 19:49:56 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:49:56 -0600 Subject: UCSD CP/M Adaptable system References: <200503311557.j2VFvKws006505@mail.bcpl.net><001d01c53647$15ccd310$0100a8c0@screamer><002901c53662$89685c20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001e01c53665$9370d7d0$b43dd7d1@randylaptop> <6.2.1.2.2.20050401082959.04ba9840@mail> Message-ID: <002201c537ef$74028200$483cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "John Foust" Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 8:33 AM > At 08:50 PM 3/31/2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >>I've posted a copy of the UCSD CP/M adaptable system on my site. It has a >>problem with part of it: >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com > > Would you consider not using self-expanding PC executables to store > archives? You're not even using the licensed WinZip to do it. > Straight Zip files can be opened anywhere. > > The Terak disk images are a fine example of why I'd personally > hesitate to upload disk images. Bill Riordan's personal letters > are among the text files perserved on the archives. > > - John I redacted the personal text files from the archive, as I said it was sent to me that way knowing I was posting it on the web. I agree before letting go of any disks you should look and see what is on them. In this case there are large pieces of the UCSD source code in this archive and I am extremely happy to have it on my site. The personal letters didn't have anything embarassing on them but had nothing to do with what I want to save. When I create an archive of files or disk images I try to know what I am archiving. I look at text files with an editor and disk images with a hex editor. I've found lot's of goodies with a hex editor. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Apr 2 19:56:21 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 17:56:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hitachi CDR-1503S info In-Reply-To: <4d55882225classiccmp@iank.org.uk> References: <4d55882225classiccmp@iank.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050402173730.J6974@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Ian K wrote: > Hello All > I'm looking for information on the Hitachi CDR-1503S CDR drive. What it > can be used for reading CD-ROMs. 1X a decent DOS CD-ROM drive. I've heard of people getting it working with Windoze 95, but not worth the effort - get a SCSI or IDE drive, instead. Even in the Linux community, I doubt that anybody has been crazy enough to create alternate drivers. > and the interface it uses. Hitachi. IIRC, "CDIF14" You'll need to get the HITACHI.SYS, and MSCDEX.EXE, add a DEVICE = HITACHI.SYS /D:CUPHOLDR line to CONFIG.SYS, and add a MSCDEX /D:CUPHOLDR line to AUTOEXEC.BAT Try Google. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rcini at optonline.net Sat Apr 2 20:27:21 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:27:21 -0500 Subject: IMSAI score! Message-ID: <002501c537f4$aa986870$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: I've been corresponding for months with this guy who is disposing of his various systems as a result of moving to a smaller place. This weekend, I finally started to see the fruits of my labor. Today I received four copy boxes with the following: 300 (plus or minus) 8" disks with tons of programs (uncataloged at this point) and 25 or so "spare" S100 boards including (more than one of some) the Cromemco Dazzler, SSM video, Matrox video, SIO and PIO cards, A/D and X10 cards, a 6800-based SBC, a 300-baud modem and some memory boards (small sizes). Additionally, I have about 20 spare copies of various BYTE magazines (list to follow). This week I expect several more boxes consisting of the dual 8" disk drives (plus spares), the drive enclosure (Synergistics), the IMSAI itself (TDL Z80 I believe), scads of original documentation, the entire run of Micro Cornucopia, some Interface Age and Kilobaud mags, and to top it off, a Poly 88 system. There's also a *slim* chance that he's going to throw in a Mark-8 system. And the best part...all for the cost of shipping. Yeah! It's Christmas in April! Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 20:42:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 18:42:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: IMSAI score! In-Reply-To: <002501c537f4$aa986870$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Today I received four copy boxes with the following: 300 (plus or > minus) 8" disks with tons of programs (uncataloged at this point) and 25 or > so "spare" S100 boards including (more than one of some) the Cromemco > Dazzler, SSM video, Matrox video, SIO and PIO cards, A/D and X10 cards, a > 6800-based SBC, a 300-baud modem and some memory boards (small sizes). > Additionally, I have about 20 spare copies of various BYTE magazines (list > to follow). > > This week I expect several more boxes consisting of the dual 8" disk > drives (plus spares), the drive enclosure (Synergistics), the IMSAI itself > (TDL Z80 I believe), scads of original documentation, the entire run of > Micro Cornucopia, some Interface Age and Kilobaud mags, and to top it off, a > Poly 88 system. There's also a *slim* chance that he's going to throw in a > Mark-8 system. Sa-weeet score! If you do get the Mark-8, please give details and perhaps some photos. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rcini at optonline.net Sat Apr 2 20:58:18 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 21:58:18 -0500 Subject: IMSAI score! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002e01c537f8$fd8e5db0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Pictures -- of course. I haven't started looking through the diskettes in detail yet, but there seems to be a wide range of business and hobby programs. I also found maps that go to a yet-undiscovered adventure program. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 9:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IMSAI score! On Sat, 2 Apr 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > Today I received four copy boxes with the following: 300 (plus or > minus) 8" disks with tons of programs (uncataloged at this point) and 25 or > so "spare" S100 boards including (more than one of some) the Cromemco > Dazzler, SSM video, Matrox video, SIO and PIO cards, A/D and X10 cards, a > 6800-based SBC, a 300-baud modem and some memory boards (small sizes). > Additionally, I have about 20 spare copies of various BYTE magazines (list > to follow). > > This week I expect several more boxes consisting of the dual 8" disk > drives (plus spares), the drive enclosure (Synergistics), the IMSAI itself > (TDL Z80 I believe), scads of original documentation, the entire run of > Micro Cornucopia, some Interface Age and Kilobaud mags, and to top it off, a > Poly 88 system. There's also a *slim* chance that he's going to throw in a > Mark-8 system. Sa-weeet score! If you do get the Mark-8, please give details and perhaps some photos. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 21:34:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:34:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: program to print out ASCII renderings of punch cards and/or papertape? In-Reply-To: <424CB789.mailEGO11I6KN@gtoal.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2005, Graham Toal wrote: > PS Unfortunately there's a small bug caused by him mishandling > protection against data injection attacks: you can't enter Algol60 > code or anything else with single quotes in it :-( ... > e.g. http://www.facade.com/legacy/punchcard/?val='BEGIN' That's inadvertent. The script parser (PHP perhaps?) is automatically escaping the single quote with a backslash, which is the default action. You normally have to run web inputs through filtering functions to get rid of any escape characters the parser added. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 21:39:39 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 22:39:39 -0500 Subject: IMSAI score! In-Reply-To: <002e01c537f8$fd8e5db0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> References: <002e01c537f8$fd8e5db0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Apr 2, 2005 9:58 PM, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I also found maps that go to a yet-undiscovered adventure program. I'd love to see scans of that. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 21:49:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:49:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! In-Reply-To: <200504010154.43727.> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Mike wrote: > My local computer recycler is offering these on E-Bay. > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5181480695&rd=1 Eh. It's a nice //e, but expecting $750 is wishful thinking on weed. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 2 21:54:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:54:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: New box of 8" disks for $9 Message-ID: On eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3666&item=5181237890&rd=1 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 22:55:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 23:55:37 -0500 Subject: Kaypro2 available in Washington State Message-ID: I got a message today from someone who is looking to find a new home for his Kaypro2 with the trimmings... Hissam509 at aol.com writes... > I have a 1983 Kaypro 2 PN. 81-014 Computer that is in 98% > Mint condition with the original printer in mint condition. I have > all the Kaypro manuals that came with the computer when it > was bought new. The manuals are in wonderfull condition. Would > you be interested in this? Even if your not could you please tell > me how much something like this would be worth? This machine is in Kennewick, WA... please contact the owner directly if you are interested (I already have more than one Kaypro). -ethan From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Apr 2 23:37:51 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 07:37:51 +0200 Subject: IMSAI score! References: <002501c537f4$aa986870$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: <002701c5380f$479c7cf0$2101a8c0@finans> > I've been corresponding for months with this guy who is disposing of > his various systems as a result of moving to a smaller place. This weekend, > I finally started to see the fruits of my labor. > YOU LUCKY BASTARD ! Nico From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Apr 2 18:30:06 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 01:30:06 +0100 Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9ab38b554d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide > the emergency retraction current? I doubt this is in the same category, but the newer Maxtor drives (D740X and later) seem to use a plastic paddle to lock the head. The head seems to "gravitate" towards the center of the platter when the drive is idling with no current applied to the voice coil. If the drive is moving (and there's air moving around inside it), the paddle is pushed towards the casing and unlocks the head actuator. When the drive slows down, the head is moved to the center of the platter (either under control of the drive or by some form of mechanical effect) and when the drive slows down enough, the paddle springs back and locks the actuator. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... It's not the money I want, it's the stuff. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Apr 3 04:46:13 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 10:46:13 +0100 Subject: OT: trainspotting was Re: origins of "kludge" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424FBB65.3080204@gjcp.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > >>>>Doubtless from the Scots word "cludgie", meaning outside toilet. >>>>Since we don't have those any more, it refers to any rather squalid >>>>toilet - think about the bookmaker scene in Trainspotting. >>> >>>You mean you actually understand the dialog in Trainspotting - my >>>housekeeper who originally comes from Glasgow admits she can't >>>understand much of the dialog :-) >> >>I like the bit where they subtitle it during the party. ^_^ > > > Only because the music is so loud, so they have to. No vintage computer > sightings in that one, but a great movie all the same! > The book is better. Spud does a lot more in the book, but it's all "fourth wall" dialogue - he's talking to you, rather than the characters in the book. More like he's telling you about it after it's all past, rather than as the story develops. Dangerously offtopic, I know. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Apr 3 04:50:15 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 10:50:15 +0100 Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424FBC57.3050304@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. > > > I once knew a chap called Mike Roe. He was a very clueful hacker (in the > original sense of course), and I remember many pleasant evenings > tinkering with ASR33s, etc... I knew an audio engineer called Mike Fader... Gordon. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 3 06:37:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 11:37:37 +0000 Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: <9ab38b554d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <9ab38b554d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <1112528257.16795.19.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 01:30 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide > > the emergency retraction current? > > I doubt this is in the same category, but the newer Maxtor drives (D740X and > later) seem to use a plastic paddle to lock the head. FWIW, I've had an early 90's Quantum drive which has the exact same mechanism, so it's not a new invention. I fitted a perspex lid to it - intention is to have the head position under user control along with some sort of LED display of current position, so that the public can tap in a number and watch the thing seek. cheers J. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 3 06:55:31 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 11:55:31 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 revisited... Message-ID: <1112529331.16795.38.camel@weka.localdomain> Right. It's *not* the 8530 SCC chip that's faulty, but it's *not* the data bus either - there's plenty of bus activity so bit 6 isn't permanently jammed high. After checking the bus, I replaced the SCC chip with a socket and tried my spare SCC chip from home (remarkably easy job as it turned out) - gave exactly the same results on the console. So, it looks like bit 6 of the bus is fine *except* when a serial port access is in progress (i.e. other things sharing that bus are being accessed fine) Three possibilities at the moment: 1) The big LSI Logic L1A3626 IC which appears to control the serial port bus is broken internally. 2) Something upstream of the LSI Logic chip is faulty. 3) Something else on the board is responsible for driving the bus during SCC ops, and there's a break in the bit 6 track to it somewhere, resulting in it always floating high during serial access. I can't do much about 1 and 2 without knowing the pinouts of the LSI chip or having full schematics of the board :-( Point 3 I can test by tracing one of the other data bus lines and seeing if it goes anywhere that line #6 doesn't. I had a look at our Sparc 1 and 2 machines, but they don't use the same chipset. They do however have a similar IC to the LSI chip in the 4/330 marked as "buffer" which of course increases suspicion that the LSI chip in the 4/330 - or something upstream of it - has broken. Chances are I'll be looking for a new board (yeah, right!) given the lack of schematics. Other alternative would be to find a framebuffer board for the machine and then use a graphical console - it might be easier to find a compatible framebuffer versus a whole new 4/330 board... Grumble! cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Apr 3 07:01:39 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 08:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun 4/330 revisited... In-Reply-To: <1112529331.16795.38.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1112529331.16795.38.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504031205.IAA21181@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Sun 4/330 with bit 6 broken on console serial] > Chances are I'll be looking for a new board (yeah, right!) given the > lack of schematics. Other alternative would be to find a framebuffer > board for the machine and then use a graphical console - it might be > easier to find a compatible framebuffer versus a whole new 4/330 > board... Another possibility, if the board has another serial-port chip (eg, many Suns have one chip for ttya/ttyb and another for keyboard/mouse) is to cut the chip enable connections and swap them. If the rest of the pins are bussed in parallel, this could then move console serial onto the other chip, which may work. (If it's mouse/keyboard, you likely will need a level shifter, but based on my experiences with later SPARCs, that's all you'll need; I've put keyboards on stock serial ports with a level shifter and an inverter, and I think I even did the converse once.) Of course, it also could break things totally if the other signals aren't simply bussed. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Apr 3 07:43:03 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:43:03 +0100 Subject: possible dec equipment References: <424FBC57.3050304@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <005001c5384a$ad9844e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 10:50 AM Subject: Re: possible dec equipment > Tony Duell wrote: > >>April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. > > > > > > I once knew a chap called Mike Roe. He was a very clueful hacker (in the > > original sense of course), and I remember many pleasant evenings > > tinkering with ASR33s, etc... > > I knew an audio engineer called Mike Fader... > > Gordon. > > I'm going to put myself in for the "nominative determinism" (coined by "New Scientist" prize... I'm a comms and navigation engineer in aviation Jim BEACON. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 08:00:38 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:00:38 +0100 Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <200504012352.PAA07984@floodgap.com> References: <200504012352.PAA07984@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af05040306005a84c50c@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 2, 2005 12:52 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered > OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. This is not news, and you haven't read the page thoroughly. MacOS 9.1 has *ALWAYS* been a free download. However, it's an update: you need MacOS 9.0x to upgrade. It's not a standalone OS. 9.0.4 is also free, as is 9.2.1 and 9.2.2. 8.6 is also free for owners of 8.5, which costs. 8.1 is free for owners of 8.0, which costs. 7.6.1 is free for owners of 7.6, which costs. 7.5.5 is free as are all previous versions. It is the last and latest version of the Mac System that Apple has made freely available. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From classiccmp at iank.org.uk Sun Apr 3 08:30:49 2005 From: classiccmp at iank.org.uk (Ian K) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:30:49 +0100 Subject: Hitachi CDR-1503S info In-Reply-To: <20050402173730.J6974@shell.lmi.net> References: <4d55882225classiccmp@iank.org.uk> <20050402173730.J6974@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4d55d32dd1classiccmp@iank.org.uk> In article <20050402173730.J6974 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Ian K wrote: > > Hello All > > I'm looking for information on the Hitachi CDR-1503S CDR drive. What it > > can be used for > reading CD-ROMs. 1X > a decent DOS CD-ROM drive. I've heard of people getting it working with > Windoze 95, but not worth the effort - get a SCSI or IDE drive, instead. > Even in the Linux community, I doubt that anybody has been crazy enough to > create alternate drivers. > > and the interface it uses. > Hitachi. IIRC, "CDIF14" Thanks. I thought it might be something odd. Not a lot of good to me then. If anyone has any use for this please get in touch. Regards Ian K From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 3 09:45:06 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 10:45:06 -0400 Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) References: <9ab38b554d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <001101c5385b$bb3be050$0100a8c0@screamer> I seem to recall that the Trident T-300's have no battery to retract the heads. I'm not sure how they get retracted. Also the CDC 300 meg drives I used to service had no batteries either. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:30 PM Subject: Re: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) > In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > >> Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide >> the emergency retraction current? > > I doubt this is in the same category, but the newer Maxtor drives (D740X > and > later) seem to use a plastic paddle to lock the head. The head seems to > "gravitate" towards the center of the platter when the drive is idling > with > no current applied to the voice coil. If the drive is moving (and there's > air > moving around inside it), the paddle is pushed towards the casing and > unlocks > the head actuator. When the drive slows down, the head is moved to the > center of the platter (either under control of the drive or by some form > of > mechanical effect) and when the drive slows down enough, the paddle > springs > back and locks the actuator. > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, > 6GB, > philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, > 2-slice, > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI > ... It's not the money I want, it's the stuff. > From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sun Apr 3 09:54:25 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 10:54:25 -0400 Subject: Articles on Simon Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050403104613.01cc3f78@pop.cogeco.ca> While looking for something else in old magazines I ran across a series of articles by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen on the design and construction of the Simon relay computer. (Oct 1950 to Sept 1951 Radio Electronics) I can't find number 13 in Oct 1951, which is apparently a description of a different computer. Would it be worthwhile trying to scan these and try to get someone to post them? Regards Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Apr 3 10:13:27 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 07:13:27 -0800 Subject: Articles on Simon In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050403104613.01cc3f78@pop.cogeco.ca> References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050403104613.01cc3f78@pop.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <200504030813.27106.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 03 April 2005 07:54, Charles E. Fox wrote: --snip-- > Would it be worthwhile trying to scan these and try to get someone > to post them? Yes, please send them to Al Kossow for scanning. I, for one, would really like to read those Simon articles!! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From menadeau at comcast.net Sun Apr 3 10:18:18 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:18:18 -0400 Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! References: <200504010747.j317ltrE053564@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <012d01c53860$5f574d60$0c01a8c0@Mike> > If it's really as pristine as he claims, I would estimate the value of a > couple hundred dollars at most. > > Other estimates? Mike Nadeau? I would go a little higher--$300 range. Serious collectors put a high premium on top condition. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 1:55 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Apple IIe that really does deserve a WOW! > > My local computer recycler is offering these on E-Bay. > > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=80286&item=5181480695& > rd=1 > > > > > > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Apr 3 10:22:21 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 16:22:21 +0100 Subject: Articles on Simon References: <6.2.1.2.0.20050403104613.01cc3f78@pop.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <006d01c53860$ef5702c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Charlie, I'd be interested to see them, and perhaps build a few experimental circuits! Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Charles E. Fox" To: Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 3:54 PM Subject: Articles on Simon > While looking for something else in old magazines I ran across a > series of articles by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen on the design > and construction of the Simon relay computer. (Oct 1950 to Sept 1951 Radio > Electronics) I can't find number 13 in Oct 1951, which is apparently a > description > of a different computer. > Would it be worthwhile trying to scan these and try to get someone > to post them? > > Regards > > Charlie Fox > > > Charles E. Fox Video Production > 793 Argyle Rd. > Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 > 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca > Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten > at www.chasfoxvideo.com > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 3 12:13:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 13:13:11 -0400 Subject: Articles on Simon In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050403104613.01cc3f78@pop.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050403131311.00af3780@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:54 AM 4/3/05 -0400, you wrote: > While looking for something else in old magazines I ran across a >series of articles by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen on the design >and construction of the Simon relay computer. (Oct 1950 to Sept 1951 Radio >Electronics) I can't find number 13 in Oct 1951, which is apparently a >description >of a different computer. > Would it be worthwhile trying to scan these and try to get someone >to post them? Didn't someone here already scan them? I thought I remember someone sent me a CD of the articles a year or two ago. Joe From marvin at rain.org Sun Apr 3 12:37:27 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 10:37:27 -0700 Subject: Articles on Simon References: <200504031701.j33H02vN089085@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <425029D7.73943C39@rain.org> There are at least two types of Simon documents available. I *think* the first articles were the Radio Electronics Magazine series, and that was followed by the reprint. The primary difference that I could see was the color diagrams in the Radio Electronics Magazine series as opposed to B&W on the reprints. When the discussion took place the last time on this listserver, ISTR that Doug Salot had the reprints but they were slightly different from what I have. While I have the scans of the reprint (and they are still around here ... someplace), it would be nice to have the color wiring diagrams (they are MUCH easier to see the specific wiring being described in the figure.) Also, ISTR that someone else on the list got a copy of the articles from the Charles Babbage Institute and there were still some copyright restrictions. > From: "Charles E. Fox" > While looking for something else in old magazines I ran across a > series of articles by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen on the design > and construction of the Simon relay computer. (Oct 1950 to Sept 1951 Radio > Electronics) I can't find number 13 in Oct 1951, which is apparently a > description > of a different computer. > Would it be worthwhile trying to scan these and try to get someone > to post them? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 12:47:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 11:47:59 -0600 Subject: Articles on Simon References: <3.0.6.32.20050403131311.00af3780@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42502C4F.7080804@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > Didn't someone here already scan them? I thought I remember someone sent > me a CD of the articles a year or two ago. > > Joe But paper is people readable anywhere ... So what is a good price for relays, I was looking at my last free surplus flyer from BG-Micro and typical relay was $1.25. Ben alias woodelf From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sun Apr 3 13:20:22 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 11:20:22 -0700 Subject: Articles on Simon References: <200504031700.j33H02vM089085@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000201c53879$de031770$0200a8c0@downstairs2> I don't have the Simon computer but I do have the a Samsonite card table that look just like the one in this cover photo. http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/cover1.jpg I got it from an elderly neighbor 30 years ago. If anyone builds the electronic brain I will provide the table. Michael Holley www.swtpc.com/mholley From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 3 13:41:26 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:41:26 -0400 Subject: Articles on Simon In-Reply-To: <42502C4F.7080804@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20050403131311.00af3780@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050403144126.0095d590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:47 AM 4/3/05 -0600, you wrote: >Joe R. wrote: > >> Didn't someone here already scan them? I thought I remember someone sent >> me a CD of the articles a year or two ago. >> >> Joe > >But paper is people readable anywhere ... I like paper too. BUT they were talking about posting them so you would have to print it either way. >So what is a good price for relays, I was looking at my >last free surplus flyer from BG-Micro and typical relay >was $1.25. I need to check with the surplus people like Electronics Goldmine and see if I can get a good deal on a BUNCH of relays instead of buying them individually. Joe >Ben alias woodelf > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 13:54:54 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 12:54:54 -0600 Subject: Articles on Simon References: <3.0.6.32.20050403131311.00af3780@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050403144126.0095d590@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42503BFE.5030602@jetnet.ab.ca> Joe R. wrote: > I like paper too. BUT they were talking about posting them so you would > have to print it either way. See below. > I need to check with the surplus people like Electronics Goldmine and > see if I can get a good deal on a BUNCH of relays instead of buying them > individually. > > Joe Well looking at the cover (last email) I estimated 6 rows of 20 relays. But now that I am thinking about even if you get the magazine scanned it may not be complete. Well I know the last few decades they show a few pictures and a quick chip listing and require you to send $??.95 for compleate plans. Of course the magzine or plans or totaly out of print by now. Ben alias woodelf From willisjo at zianet.com Sun Apr 3 14:04:56 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 13:04:56 -0600 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media Message-ID: I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be ideal, But any version would work, as would ISO images or an actual CD. Anybody have any leads? Thanks much John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 14:01:51 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 13:01:51 -0600 Subject: Articles on Simon References: <200504031700.j33H02vM089085@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000201c53879$de031770$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <42503D9F.8050708@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Holley wrote: > I don't have the Simon computer but I do have the a Samsonite card table > that look just like the one in this cover photo. > http://www.widomaker.com/~cswiger/simon/cover1.jpg > > I got it from an elderly neighbor 30 years ago. If anyone builds the > electronic brain I will provide the table. Nice Cover. > Michael Holley > www.swtpc.com/mholley PS. You don't have the BYTE's with the tiny 6800 assembler by chance. That I would like to get scanned online so I can read it. Note I can't order the book since that is long out of print. From musicman at satcom.whit.org Sun Apr 3 14:06:18 2005 From: musicman at satcom.whit.org (Musicman) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:06:18 -0600 Subject: MicroVAX 3800 info? Message-ID: <000501c53880$378883b0$808e4044@nunuab4l7txmfk> Can anyone point me to info on the MicroVax 3800? I may be able to aquire one, but would like to know a little about it first. Also, I am really looking for the dimensions/weight of the unit also? Thank you David Whittaker musicman(at)sitcom.whit.org -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 4/1/2005 From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Sun Apr 3 14:43:25 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:43:25 +0200 (MEST) Subject: TK60 ;-) DEC CompacTape I/II bastard Message-ID: <28258.1112557405@www44.gmx.net> Hello everybody; some time ago I found a strange construction in a bin at the campus, which I'd like to put back together in a way that makes it usable, nice-looking, and doesn't conflict with collector ethics. What I'm talking about is a DEC TK50Z-G3 external enclosure from which the original TK50 (CompacTape I) transport was removed and replaced with a TK70 (CompacTape II) - which made it impossible to re-fit the cover, because the TK70's bezel is about 3 mm (2/16") wider than the cutout in the housing front panel. The access door in the panel's cutout is also in the way but could be removed rather easily. What was obviously not replaced however is the interface board which resides above the transport. The device, when connected to my SPARCclassic and interrogated by "probe-scsi" from the OBP "ok" prompt, reports as follows: Target 5 Unit 0 Removable Tape Qualifier 50. and the board installed bears the number "5017683-01-B1-P2" on the solder side and the designation "TZK-50" on the component side. I suppose this has to match the transport in order to have a functional unit (unless the TK70 is smart enough to say: "You think I'm a TK50, so I'm gonna act as if I was one!"). I'm not in a hurry to get this working (I got some distribution CompacTapes some time ago, but no leads on a matching DEC computer yet), but I'd like to get an idea of what to do with it - which largely depends on whether this is a sensible combination at all. Yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Sparen beginnt mit GMX DSL: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 3 14:53:30 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:53:30 -0500 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504031453.30945.pat@computer-refuge.org> John Willis declared on Sunday 03 April 2005 02:04 pm: > I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be > ideal, But any version would work, as would ISO > images or an actual CD. Anybody have any leads? I'm not sure what version you need, but VAX COBOL is on the hobbyist OpenVMS CD distribution, or at least the one I've got (V7.2). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Apr 3 15:13:58 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:13:58 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504032013.j33KDtkS090820@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media > > I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be ideal, But > any version would work, as would ISO images or an actual CD. > Anybody have any leads? Hi John, Which version are you after? I've brought my entire stock of CDs down to my weekday home so they're easily accessible now. cheers a From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sun Apr 3 15:17:37 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 15:17:37 -0500 Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:43:03 +0100 . <005001c5384a$ad9844e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050403201806.UTNO2068.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <005001c5384a$ad9844e0$0200a8c0 at ntlworld.com>, "Jim Beacon" writes: >From: "Gordon JC Pearce" >> >> I knew an audio engineer called Mike Fader... >> >> Gordon. >> >I'm going to put myself in for the "nominative determinism" (coined by "New >Scientist" prize... > >I'm a comms and navigation engineer in aviation Back in college I had an EE professor named Dr. Voltmer. He didn't appreciate it when the campus paper nicknamed him Dr. Voltmeter. Brian L. Stuart From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Apr 3 15:54:09 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 05 20:54:09 GMT Subject: TK60 ;-) DEC CompacTape I/II bastard Message-ID: <0504032054.AA18514@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Arno Kletzander wrote: > and the board installed bears the number "5017683-01-B1-P2" on the solder > side and the designation "TZK-50" on the component side. I suppose this has > to match the transport in order to have a functional unit (unless the TK70 > is smart enough to say: "You think I'm a TK50, so I'm gonna act as if I was > one!"). I have previously heard of people connecting TK50 drives to TK70 controllers. Supposedly it results in better performance. I don't know if you lose the ability to write TK50 tapes this way or not. This is the first time I hear about the opposite combination, but I have to assume it works - whoever put it together obviously had it working, otherwise the combo you have in your hands would not exist. But I won't venture a guess as to whether that combo can read/write TK70 tapes or just read TK50s. MS From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 15:52:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More vintage in the mainstream news.... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401110404.04b1fa70@mail> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 10:53 AM 4/1/2005, news at computercollector.com wrote: > >http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1780863,00.asp > >Top Five Vintage Computers Turn Dust into Dollars > > Sellam - you think there's only a dozen PDP-8 in the world? Of the original "straight-8"? As far as my data currently show, yeah. I only know of about dozen, of which half are in private hands and the other half in museums. If there are any straight-8 owners on the list that I don't know about, please e-mail me privately as I'd like to get a register going. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 15:55:55 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:55:55 +0100 Subject: Vax Media Message-ID: <26c11a6405040313553f7d158@mail.gmail.com> Whilst we are on the subject of vax media does anyone have disk 4 of June 1997's vax spl. I seem to have misplaced it. Thanks Dan From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 16:15:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <200504012334.j31NYY59002827@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > Found this article while trolling usenet. Looks like there might be > some interesting stuff. Plus, who can argue with Stanley Kubrick? > > Anyone know this guy? > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.folklore.computers/msg/0c88a96cd23e2beb Was there a concerted effort by one or more people on the list to pepper the internet with bogus vintage computer ads like Easter eggs? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From acme at gbronline.com Sun Apr 3 16:20:08 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:20:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42505E08.3090606@gbronline.com> John Willis wrote: > I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be > ideal, But any version would work, as would ISO > images or an actual CD. Anybody have any leads? > > > Thanks much > John Is it a violation of copyright if I burn you a copy of the appropriate condist CD? You'll need a license, of course. Glen 0/0 From willisjo at zianet.com Sun Apr 3 16:19:49 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (John Willis) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 15:19:49 -0600 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: <200504032013.j33KDtkS090820@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Any version is good, but 5.1 would be great and 5.7 would be awesome. on 4/3/05 2:13 PM, Adrian Graham at witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk wrote: > >> Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media >> >> I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be ideal, But >> any version would work, as would ISO images or an actual CD. >> Anybody have any leads? > > Hi John, > > Which version are you after? I've brought my entire stock of CDs down to my > weekday home so they're easily accessible now. > > cheers > > a > > From acme at gbronline.com Sun Apr 3 16:22:50 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:22:50 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: <200504031453.30945.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504031453.30945.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <42505EAA.7060701@gbronline.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > John Willis declared on Sunday 03 April 2005 02:04 pm: > >>I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be >>ideal, But any version would work, as would ISO >>images or an actual CD. Anybody have any leads? > > > I'm not sure what version you need, but VAX COBOL is on the hobbyist > OpenVMS CD distribution, or at least the one I've got (V7.2). > > Pat Pat is correct -- it's on the OpenVMS CD, not the ConDist. Glen 0/0 From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 16:19:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:19:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old Computer Rescue? In-Reply-To: <424DEE7E.99E5A4E9@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Then a few weeks ago the guys at the radio museum dumpstered several > late-60s NIXIE electronic calculators and some 70s-era computing stuff > two days before I had a chance to see it or pick it up. For the sake of > pleasantness I will forgo list readers my sentiments at the time. I have to say that any organization that would dumpster equipment that is out of the scope of their collection without first trying to find another organization for which it is in scope is run by absolute idiots who do not understand the basics of historical preservation. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 16:21:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <20050402024951.58643.qmail@web81310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, William Maddox wrote: > scope. There are several pictures on the net of > PDP-1s in museum exhibits that look like this, but > in all the old photos, it looks like the typewriter > was likely to be on a table attached to the CPU > cabinet. It is also dubious that the teletype The last photo is certainly from the CHM. The give away is the purple background, which are the old SGI cubicle dividers being re-purposed in the Visible Storage area as exhibit partitions :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 16:28:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:28:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Bendix G-15 for rescue? [Was: Old Computer Rescue?] In-Reply-To: <200504012258.j31Mw9YE069512@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Apr 2005, Evan wrote: > >>>>>> duped by an April 1st shenanigan. > > Yes but who is responsible? > > Step forward whoever you are!! > > LOL, conveniently, Sellam mentioned the other day that he's "on vacation" > this week. Sorry. I wish I had the time to play stupid gags like this. They are only slightly clever, enough to get the collective panties of the list all up in a bunch. If they were my gags, they'd be much more involved. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 16:39:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <424FBC57.3050304@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >>April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. > > > > > > I once knew a chap called Mike Roe. He was a very clueful hacker (in the > > original sense of course), and I remember many pleasant evenings > > tinkering with ASR33s, etc... > > I knew an audio engineer called Mike Fader... I once knew a prostitute named Priscilla Hoare. April Fools! Oops, two days late. Sorry :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From acme at gbronline.com Sun Apr 3 16:44:03 2005 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:44:03 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: <42505EAA.7060701@gbronline.com> References: <200504031453.30945.pat@computer-refuge.org> <42505EAA.7060701@gbronline.com> Message-ID: <425063A3.1030902@gbronline.com> I know, answering my own post . . . For the record, on the OpenVMS Hobbyist CD version 7.3, COBOL is no longer present. BASIC, Pascal, C, and FORTRAN are still included. Glen 0/0 Glen Goodwin wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> John Willis declared on Sunday 03 April 2005 02:04 pm: >> >>> I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be >>> ideal, But any version would work, as would ISO >>> images or an actual CD. Anybody have any leads? >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what version you need, but VAX COBOL is on the hobbyist >> OpenVMS CD distribution, or at least the one I've got (V7.2). >> >> Pat > > > Pat is correct -- it's on the OpenVMS CD, not the ConDist. > > Glen > 0/0 > > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 16:42:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 14:42:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Articles on Simon In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050403131311.00af3780@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 10:54 AM 4/3/05 -0400, you wrote: > > While looking for something else in old magazines I ran across a > >series of articles by Edmund C. Berkeley and Robert A. Jensen on the design > >and construction of the Simon relay computer. (Oct 1950 to Sept 1951 Radio > >Electronics) I can't find number 13 in Oct 1951, which is apparently a > >description > >of a different computer. > > Would it be worthwhile trying to scan these and try to get someone > >to post them? > > Didn't someone here already scan them? I thought I remember someone sent > me a CD of the articles a year or two ago. That was me. I got the scans from someone else. It wouldn't hurt to have them re-scanned. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Apr 3 16:45:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:45:44 +0100 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504032145.j33LjRaF092133@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Willis > Sent: 03 April 2005 22:20 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for VAX COBOL media > > Any version is good, but 5.1 would be great and 5.7 would be awesome. K, do you have an approximate date for 5.7? I can cover much of the 90s CDDS.... cheers a From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 12:21:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:21:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050402193702.00930c60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 2, 5 07:37:02 pm Message-ID: > >Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide > >the emergency retraction current? > > The drives used in PC do that and have for many years but I never saw a > mainframe disk drive that did. Yes, I was thinking of things like full-height 5.25" units. Larger drives often had AC spindle motors which would clearly be unsuitable for this trick (well, at least not simply...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 12:23:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:23:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050402194503.00930130@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 2, 5 07:45:03 pm Message-ID: > You're correct. I looked at my disk drive notes later and found a note > that the 9153 did use an HP drive. But I'm pretty certain that the ONE time > I was able to replace a drive and format it and have it work was on a drive > that used a ST-225. I know at least one model of the 9133 uses the ST-225 > but don't remember which one it was without looking at my notes however I > THINK it was a 15Mb model. That's interesting. The 9113H uses an ST225 I think (it's certainly a normal ST506 interaced hard disk). If there's a way to replace the drive in that with any old ST225 ripped from a PC or something then I'll be rather happy. I'd also be interested if anyone has worked out what the Ident Sea settings correspond to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 12:32:14 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:32:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050402194947.00b06880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 2, 5 07:49:47 pm Message-ID: > >I beleive there are at least 2 main versions -- the older one in the > >all-metal case (which, IIRC had separate floppy and hard disk controller > >boards, linked ot the same HPIB connector) and the later one in the > >'shoebox' with the plastic front/top cover. > > There are at least two versions. One is the white square box about 13" I'll raise that to 3 versions at least :-) I have found a manaul called "HP's 3 1/2-Inch Flexible Disc Drive Service Documentation". It's pretty content-free, the main useful part is the appendix giving the Amigo command set, at least for floppies. Anyway, this manual has a section on the drive itself (the single-head Sony full-height one), no schematics and sections on the 9121, 9133A/B, 9133V/XV units. The latter have partial PSU scheamtics, you're refered to the Winchester Disc Service Manual for the rest of the PSU (which, alas, I don't have :-(). The 9133A is the all-metal case with rounded ends. It contains 2 separate controllers (floppy and winchester), linked to a common HPIB connector. Seprate address switches for the 2 controllers The 9133V is in the plastic-topped case. Again separate controllers. The floppy controller is 2 stacked boards (to get it in the case!). The HPIB connector is on the winchester controller board, but there's an internal HPIB link to the floppy controller. Again separate address switches. Then there's the 9133H that I have. It's got one controller board with one HPIB interface and one 98B09 processor. It controls both the floppy and the winchester. One address swithc of course. Intrerstingly, the manaul I have gives component lists for the floppy controller boards. All 3 (9121, 9133A, 9133X) seem to be very similar and use the same firmware ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 12:40:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:40:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <424FBC57.3050304@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Apr 3, 5 10:50:15 am Message-ID: > I knew an audio engineer called Mike Fader... Massively off-topic, but I once worked with a technician called 'Richard Head'. Of course he objected to the obvious shortening of his name... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 12:43:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:43:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sun 4/330 revisited... In-Reply-To: <1112529331.16795.38.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 3, 5 11:55:31 am Message-ID: > > > Right. It's *not* the 8530 SCC chip that's faulty, but it's *not* the > data bus either - there's plenty of bus activity so bit 6 isn't > permanently jammed high. > > After checking the bus, I replaced the SCC chip with a socket and tried > my spare SCC chip from home (remarkably easy job as it turned out) - > gave exactly the same results on the console. First thought : There's some other device -- maybe soemthing like an interrupt vector source buffer -- that's being enabled along with the Z8530. Of course this might be inside that LSI chip you mention. > I can't do much about 1 and 2 without knowing the pinouts of the LSI > chip or having full schematics of the board :-( Well, there's a winter-evening project for you -- draw out the schematics. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Apr 3 17:36:09 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:36:09 +0100 Subject: Vax Media In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405040313553f7d158@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504032235.j33MZt33093012@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams > Sent: 03 April 2005 21:56 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: Vax Media > > Whilst we are on the subject of vax media does anyone have > disk 4 of June 1997's vax spl. I seem to have misplaced it. Yep, should have, I don't think we stopped getting the updates till a bit later than that.....I'll check. cheers a From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 3 17:53:55 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:53:55 -0400 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050402194947.00b06880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050403185355.00af9eb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:32 PM 4/3/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >I beleive there are at least 2 main versions -- the older one in the >> >all-metal case (which, IIRC had separate floppy and hard disk controller >> >boards, linked ot the same HPIB connector) and the later one in the >> >'shoebox' with the plastic front/top cover. >> >> There are at least two versions. One is the white square box about 13" > >I'll raise that to 3 versions at least :-) I rather suspected there were at lest three versions :-) > >I have found a manaul called "HP's 3 1/2-Inch Flexible Disc Drive Service >Documentation". It's pretty content-free, the main useful part is the >appendix giving the Amigo command set, at least for floppies. I also have that manual. I sent it to (someone) a couple of years ago to be scanned/copied and they disseminated a lot of copies. Your copy may well have come from me originally. FWIW it's part of a larger manual. Each section (such as this one) was ordered and installed in the manual separtately. > >Anyway, this manual has a section on the drive itself (the single-head >Sony full-height one), no schematics and sections on the 9121, 9133A/B, >9133V/XV units. I have a section on the HP 9133A. That's one of the old style boxs. I also have a section on the 9123. The 9123 operates the same as a 9122 but gets it's power from the HP 150-II. It may be the same as drive and logic board as a 9122 but I don't know. However I have a couple of 9122s and 9123s and I could open them up and compare them if necessary. I also have a section on the 9114 but I think you have that as well. I also have a separate manual, 'HP-82901 M/S & HP-82902 M/S Flexible Disk Drive Service Manual", that covers the old style 5 1/4" floppy drives. The latter have partial PSU scheamtics, you're refered to >the Winchester Disc Service Manual for the rest of the PSU (which, alas, >I don't have :-(). Yeap, Same here. I found this one at a local HP dealer and talked them into letting me make a copy. I'm sure other dealers have some of this laying around. I wish some of the other collectors would go beat the bushes in their area and see what they could find. BTW I just found a note that I missed earlier. It says that the 9133D uses the ST-225. I think the 9133H uses a ST-4(something) drive. Joe > >The 9133A is the all-metal case with rounded ends. It contains 2 >separate controllers (floppy and winchester), linked to a common HPIB >connector. Seprate address switches for the 2 controllers > >The 9133V is in the plastic-topped case. Again separate controllers. The >floppy controller is 2 stacked boards (to get it in the case!). The HPIB >connector is on the winchester controller board, but there's an internal >HPIB link to the floppy controller. Again separate address switches. > >Then there's the 9133H that I have. It's got one controller board with >one HPIB interface and one 98B09 processor. It controls both the floppy >and the winchester. One address swithc of course. > >Intrerstingly, the manaul I have gives component lists for the floppy >controller boards. All 3 (9121, 9133A, 9133X) seem to be very similar and >use the same firmware ROM. > >-tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 3 17:35:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:35:11 -0400 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050402194503.00930130@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050403183511.00af5af0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:23 PM 4/3/05 +0100, you wrote: >> You're correct. I looked at my disk drive notes later and found a note >> that the 9153 did use an HP drive. But I'm pretty certain that the ONE time >> I was able to replace a drive and format it and have it work was on a drive >> that used a ST-225. I know at least one model of the 9133 uses the ST-225 >> but don't remember which one it was without looking at my notes however I >> THINK it was a 15Mb model. > >That's interesting. The 9113H uses an ST225 I think (it's certainly a >normal ST506 interaced hard disk). If there's a way to replace the drive >in that with any old ST225 ripped from a PC or something then I'll be >rather happy. I'd also be interested if anyone has worked out what the >Ident Sea settings correspond to. I'm not sure but those may be the A, B, C jumpers that I mentioned in an earlier posting in this thread. I don't even remember where I got that but found it written down in my notebook. One of the things that I'd like to do IF I ever had the time would be to open up a bunch of the HP-IB drives and see what kind of drives they use inside, record the jumper settings, look for any common boards, etc etc. I have plenty of drives around but I just haven't had the time to do it. Joe > >-tony > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 3 19:10:06 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:10:06 -0500 Subject: Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment References: Message-ID: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > Massively off-topic, but I once worked with a technician called 'Richard > Head'. Of course he objected to the obvious shortening of his name... No kidding... one of my frat brothers was named Richard Kuntz. On a wildly different off-topic note... This was the first day of really nice weather this season, so I skipped out to the local airport (I haven't flown in 10 years). Some guy there had just bought a marine skyraider the day before and was trying it out on the ramp. Most impressive to see the hydraulic wings unfolding. So of course I got bit by the flying bug again, I'll have to look up an instructor and get recertified. But to tie it in to on-topic (it's a reach), I came home and started pondering with the wife exactly what plane I could get that is economical to fly but has a payload weight of about 750 pounds with a 6 foot by 21 inch cargo spot....... ;) Jay West From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Apr 3 19:27:16 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 01:27:16 +0100 Subject: Neat site: "Homebrew CPU" Message-ID: <6f470f564d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Hi folks, I've just stumbled on this - looks like someone's built a full CPU board out of TTL. Wire-wrapped it too (I'm surprised it works - I never had much luck with wire-wrap). I haven't had chance to take a good look at it, but what I've seen is pretty interesting. Link: Later, -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... All you folks do not exist. My sysop types all this stuff in. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 19:27:53 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:27:53 -0600 Subject: Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42508A09.6090405@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > Tony wrote... > >> Massively off-topic, but I once worked with a technician called 'Richard >> Head'. Of course he objected to the obvious shortening of his name... > > > No kidding... one of my frat brothers was named Richard Kuntz. > > On a wildly different off-topic note... This was the first day of really > nice weather this season, so I skipped out to the local airport (I > haven't flown in 10 years). Some guy there had just bought a marine > skyraider the day before and was trying it out on the ramp. Most > impressive to see the hydraulic wings unfolding. So of course I got bit > by the flying bug again, I'll have to look up an instructor and get > recertified. But to tie it in to on-topic (it's a reach), I came home > and started pondering with the wife exactly what plane I could get that > is economical to fly but has a payload weight of about 750 pounds with a > 6 foot by 21 inch cargo spot....... ;) Nausicaa's Jet-powered glider from the SI-Fi movie "Nausicaa - of the valley of the wind" seems to fit the bill. A present-day reconstruction has a payload of only 120 lbs as seen here: http://slashdot.org/articles/04/02/20/1537220.shtml I am sure with all the MASSIVE amounts of computing power you can improve the payload limit or come up with a mass reduction program for yourself or even duplicate the far future materials used. > Jay West PS. I lot of anime has intersesting flying devices... too bad safety regs and red tape limits what you can do for a HOME-BREW aircraft since they have some nice designs. From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Apr 3 19:34:21 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:34:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes In-Reply-To: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > exactly what plane I could get that is economical to fly but has a payload > weight of about 750 pounds with a 6 foot by 21 inch cargo spot....... ;) A turbo Aztec, of course.... 3300 dry ramp weight, 5K gross max takeoff, 175mph, 1400fpm climb, 24K cieling, 800 - 900 mile range. BIG baggage area, plus if you rip out those useless back seats - more room for Flying Computer Rescue... ;} Of course if the Wife and Friends wanna go fer a hunner-doller hamburger, you'll have to put them back in the airplane, so keep them in the hangar just to be Safe. Cheers John PPMEL/IFR From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 19:38:40 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 18:38:40 -0600 Subject: Neat site: "Homebrew CPU" References: <6f470f564d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <42508C90.3020100@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi folks, > I've just stumbled on this - looks like someone's built a full CPU board > out of TTL. Wire-wrapped it too (I'm surprised it works - I never had much > luck with wire-wrap). I haven't had chance to take a good look at it, but > what I've seen is pretty interesting. > > Link: > > > Later, Hmm that link don't work. Several other TTL computers can be found starting here. http://www.homebrewcpu.com/ follow the web ring for more info. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 3 19:42:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 01:42:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050403185355.00af9eb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 3, 5 06:53:55 pm Message-ID: > >I have found a manaul called "HP's 3 1/2-Inch Flexible Disc Drive Service > >Documentation". It's pretty content-free, the main useful part is the > >appendix giving the Amigo command set, at least for floppies. > > I also have that manual. I sent it to (someone) a couple of years ago to > be scanned/copied and they disseminated a lot of copies. Your copy may well > have come from me originally. FWIW it's part of a larger manual. Each No, mine is an original in an HP binder with that title printed on the front. It also has an index that covers the sections I have and those sections only (in other words, I think I have a complete manaul, although there may have been other versions). > I also have a section on the 9123. The 9123 operates the same as a 9122 > but gets it's power from the HP 150-II. It may be the same as drive and Yes, I have one. Somewhere I have the pinout of the PSU cable (it's just +12V and +5V, of course). > logic board as a 9122 but I don't know. However I have a couple of 9122s > and 9123s and I could open them up and compare them if necessary. I don't have a 9122 to look at, but the 9123 that I have is very different to other HP drive units that I've looked inside. For one thing it uses an HP custom HPIB buffer chip -- the same one that's used in the 82169 (HPIL-HPIB translator, I have the service manual for that and it _does_ contain schematics). All the other HP drives I've been inside have used stnadard (Intel, Motorola, etc) buffers. > > I also have a section on the 9114 but I think you have that as well. I don't, but I have my own schematics for the 9114 (both versions, both types of battery pack, etc). I also have my notes on how to set the darn thing up (which is remarkably easy). I've seen a 9114 service manual, and it was a waste of good tress! > > I also have a separate manual, 'HP-82901 M/S & HP-82902 M/S Flexible > Disk Drive Service Manual", that covers the old style 5 1/4" floppy drives. Does this manual contain any useful info? IIRC those drives used a 6802 processor, not the 6809 used in all later units. > BTW I just found a note that I missed earlier. It says that the 9133D > uses the ST-225. I think the 9133H uses a ST-4(something) drive. I am _sure_ my 9133H uses as ST225. Or at least the ST225 scheamtics I have apply to the drive in that unit... -tony From jcwren at jcwren.com Sun Apr 3 19:44:27 2005 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 20:44:27 -0400 Subject: Neat site: "Homebrew CPU" In-Reply-To: <6f470f564d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <6f470f564d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <42508DEB.4080901@jcwren.com> I think this is supposed to be --jc Philip Pemberton wrote: >Hi folks, > I've just stumbled on this - looks like someone's built a full CPU board >out of TTL. Wire-wrapped it too (I'm surprised it works - I never had much >luck with wire-wrap). I haven't had chance to take a good look at it, but >what I've seen is pretty interesting. > >Link: > > >Later, > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Apr 3 19:43:53 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:43:53 -0500 Subject: Neat site: "Homebrew CPU" In-Reply-To: <6f470f564d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050403194325.0c129ea8@localhost> That seems to be a dead link, at least from here. At 01:27 AM 4/4/2005 +0100, you wrote: >Hi folks, > I've just stumbled on this - looks like someone's built a full CPU board >out of TTL. Wire-wrapped it too (I'm surprised it works - I never had much >luck with wire-wrap). I haven't had chance to take a good look at it, but >what I've seen is pretty interesting. > >Link: > > >Later, >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... All you folks do not exist. My sysop types all this stuff in. [Humor] There's a fine line between fishing and just standing on the shore like an idiot. --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 3 19:47:29 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 19:47:29 -0500 Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote.... > A turbo Aztec, of course.... I see no way to fit in a 750 pound, 6 foot tall, 21 inch wide rack ;) Jay From tponsford at theriver.com Sun Apr 3 19:46:11 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 17:46:11 -0700 Subject: possible dec equipment -> beating horse, dead In-Reply-To: <005001c5384a$ad9844e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <424FBC57.3050304@gjcp.net> <005001c5384a$ad9844e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <42508E53.2030003@theriver.com> OK, OK Lets beat this dead horse....some more There once was a poster named Rowe, who set of an excitable row, A rare pdp was no joke, but not even this hoax could disuade those, though the find, was faux. yeah..you could do better.. :-) Cheers Tom Jim Beacon wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Gordon JC Pearce" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 10:50 AM >Subject: Re: possible dec equipment > > > > >>Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >>>>April 1st, Mike Rowe, uuuh-huh. Right. >>>> >>>> >>>I once knew a chap called Mike Roe. He was a very clueful hacker (in the >>>original sense of course), and I remember many pleasant evenings >>>tinkering with ASR33s, etc... >>> >>> >>I knew an audio engineer called Mike Fader... >> >>Gordon. >> >> >> >> > >I'm going to put myself in for the "nominative determinism" (coined by "New >Scientist" prize... > >I'm a comms and navigation engineer in aviation > >Jim BEACON. > > > > > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 20:02:39 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:02:39 -0400 Subject: MicroVAX 3800 info? In-Reply-To: <000501c53880$378883b0$808e4044@nunuab4l7txmfk> References: <000501c53880$378883b0$808e4044@nunuab4l7txmfk> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:06:18 -0600, Musicman wrote: > Can anyone point me to info on the MicroVax 3800? I may be able to > aquire one, but would like to know a little about it first. Also, I am > really looking for the dimensions/weight of the unit also? > MicroVax 3800 is the same as MicroVax 3900 except for the fact that MicroVax 3900 is rack mounted with RA9X disk. I have a MicroVax 3900 bare box without the rack and disk at http://www.wintersweet.com/computermuseum/VAX3900.html A MicroVax 3800 is about the size of my 3900, weights around 100LBs, has KA655 cpu, MS650 memory, KDA50 disk controller and TQK70 tape controller. vax, 9000 From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Apr 3 20:08:29 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 20:08:29 -0500 Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: References: <200504012352.PAA07984@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050403200829.704b3b5e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 10:26:33 +1000 Benjamin Gardiner wrote: > On Apr 2, 2005 9:52 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now > > offered OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. > > > > http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75103 > > Unfortunately this looks like only an update not the full version, so > it requires you to have mac os 9 allready installed. > > Benjamin I downloaded the 9.1 upgrade install from Apple about a year ago. It 'worked' for me even though I only have 'official' OS8 install media, because one of the Macs I bought at auction had a diagnostic CD with a bootable OS9 system folder. I copy the system folder off the CD onto a system's bare hard drive, then copy in the update install binary. Reboot the machine and run the upgrade installer. The barebones OS9 from the CD is limited to the point of being useless, but the upgrade installs a full OS9.1. I don't consider MacOS 9 on-topic, though. The only on-topic PPC hardware I have is a POWER 1 RS/6000 system. My interesting Macs are a pair of SE/30's, and a Mac IIfx that came (from an auction) with Nu-Bus data acquisition and IEE-488 cards, and vintage Labview on the hard drive (thanks, Purdue!). Is anybody trying to collect a complete set of ALL the Mac hardware? There is a tremendous variety from the middle years. From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Apr 3 20:07:31 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:07:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes In-Reply-To: <001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > John wrote.... >> A turbo Aztec, of course.... > > I see no way to fit in a 750 pound, 6 foot tall, 21 inch wide rack ;) Well, you didn't say "6' rack"... so what you want is a good used Cessna Caravan with the belly door mod.... and that gives the added bonus of being able to rescue computers in the bush, or on the tundra... Just how are your short-field skills??? Cheers John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 20:18:09 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 19:18:09 -0600 Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <425095D1.3050209@jetnet.ab.ca> John Lawson wrote: > > Well, you didn't say "6' rack"... so what you want is a good used > Cessna Caravan with the belly door mod.... and that gives the added > bonus of being able to rescue computers in the bush, or on the tundra... But you still have to land the aircraft ... You want too swoop down and grab them in mid-air , often say at night behind a chain fence or en-route to the land-fill or other collectors homes. :) From shirsch at adelphia.net Sun Apr 3 20:24:59 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > You're correct. I looked at my disk drive notes later and found a note > > that the 9153 did use an HP drive. But I'm pretty certain that the ONE time > > I was able to replace a drive and format it and have it work was on a drive > > that used a ST-225. I know at least one model of the 9133 uses the ST-225 > > but don't remember which one it was without looking at my notes however I > > THINK it was a 15Mb model. > > That's interesting. The 9113H uses an ST225 I think (it's certainly a > normal ST506 interaced hard disk). If there's a way to replace the drive > in that with any old ST225 ripped from a PC or something then I'll be > rather happy. I'd also be interested if anyone has worked out what the > Ident Sea settings correspond to. I successfully replaced the ST225 in a 9133 with an ST238 (same drive, but certified for RLL). It was connected to an HP64000 development system, which supported formatting, IIRC (I no longer have the drive). From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 3 20:38:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes In-Reply-To: <425095D1.3050209@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425095D1.3050209@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050403183808.D22234@shell.lmi.net> > Well, you didn't say "6' rack"... so what you want is a good used > Cessna Caravan with the belly door mod.... and that gives the added > bonus of being able to rescue computers in the bush, or on the tundra... What planes have 220 three phase? From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 3 20:48:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 18:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <20050403200829.704b3b5e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Is anybody trying to collect a complete set of ALL the Mac hardware? > There is a tremendous variety from the middle years. Hans Franke is well on his way thanks to me. I've got a LOT of random Mac models. Lots of lame Performa and nicer PowerPC models. If anyone wants to attempt to collect their own complete line of Macs then let me know. I get them in all the time, from the earliest to the latest (more in the hump of the "bathtub curve" though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Apr 3 20:54:18 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:54:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes In-Reply-To: <20050403183808.D22234@shell.lmi.net> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425095D1.3050209@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050403183808.D22234@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Fred Cisin wrote: > > What planes have 220 three phase? > Most of the bigger ones - it's just 400htz... Cheers John From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 3 21:09:31 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:09:31 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download References: Message-ID: <00a201c538bb$644042e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:48 PM Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Is anybody trying to collect a complete set of ALL the Mac hardware? > > There is a tremendous variety from the middle years. > > Hans Franke is well on his way thanks to me. I've got a LOT of random Mac > models. Lots of lame Performa and nicer PowerPC models. If anyone wants > to attempt to collect their own complete line of Macs then let me know. I > get them in all the time, from the earliest to the latest (more in the > hump of the "bathtub curve" though. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival I like collecting 68k Mac nubus cards (sound, scsi, video, video capture, network, etc) so if you find any you don't want let me know. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 3 21:10:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 22:10:00 -0400 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050403221000.00b01180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:24 PM 4/3/05 -0400, Steven wrote: >On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > You're correct. I looked at my disk drive notes later and found a note >> > that the 9153 did use an HP drive. But I'm pretty certain that the ONE time >> > I was able to replace a drive and format it and have it work was on a drive >> > that used a ST-225. I know at least one model of the 9133 uses the ST-225 >> > but don't remember which one it was without looking at my notes however I >> > THINK it was a 15Mb model. >> >> That's interesting. The 9113H uses an ST225 I think (it's certainly a >> normal ST506 interaced hard disk). If there's a way to replace the drive >> in that with any old ST225 ripped from a PC or something then I'll be >> rather happy. I'd also be interested if anyone has worked out what the >> Ident Sea settings correspond to. > >I successfully replaced the ST225 in a 9133 with an ST238 (same drive, but >certified for RLL). It was connected to an HP64000 development system, >which supported formatting, IIRC (I no longer have the drive). Do you remember which model 9133 it was? What did you have to do to format the new drive? I have to admit that even though I've had a few 64000s, I've never used one and I'm not familar with it's OS. Joe From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 3 21:13:22 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:13:22 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download References: Message-ID: <083801c538bb$e0ee98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Is anybody trying to collect a complete set of ALL the Mac hardware? > There is a tremendous variety from the middle years. I gave Chris maybe 8 ~ 12 unique models IIRC. Sometime later he had a crash of storage space... I have almost no idea how many he kept. - Somebody just gave me my first G3. Very good looking machine. Even has that prominent DEC chip (21154 PCI) to look at. Can't wait to load something on it. John A. From KParker at workcover.com Sun Apr 3 21:27:58 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:57:58 +0930 Subject: Corrosion pains Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Appreciate a little bit of advice from the list please. I started getting my shed full of gear in order on the weekend. Following a renno of the kitchen the plan is to rebuild the kitchen cupboards in the shed to provide additional storage. I noted when moving stuff around on the weekend that some corrosion has set into DB plugs and PS2 connectors etc. Fortunately its on a couple of AT machines of which I have about a zillion so its not a big drama but I'm more concerned about the longer term effects on my more precious assets. Storing stuff in the house would be great but that also equates to divorce :-) How do people store their computer stuff medium to long term. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 3 21:49:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:49:41 -0500 Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <003f01c538c0$f39fa750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 8:07 PM Subject: Re: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes > > > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > >> John wrote.... >>> A turbo Aztec, of course.... >> >> I see no way to fit in a 750 pound, 6 foot tall, 21 inch wide rack ;) > > Well, you didn't say "6' rack"... so what you want is a good used > Cessna Caravan with the belly door mod.... and that gives the added > bonus of being able to rescue computers in the bush, or on the tundra... > > Just how are your short-field skills??? > > Cheers > > John > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Apr 3 21:51:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:51:43 -0500 Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <004201c538c1$3bfb0f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote.... > Well, you didn't say "6' rack"... so what you want is a good used > Cessna Caravan with the belly door mod.... Yeah, actually I did ;) I said "to bring it on-topic (sortof), it needs to have a 750 pound capacity and a 6' by 21" cargo area"... I figured everyone knew those dimensions were for rescuing a rack of gear. The 750 pound capacity is exclusive of pilot & baggage :) Jay From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 3 22:17:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 21:17:29 -0600 Subject: Massively Off-topic: Computer rescue planes In-Reply-To: <004201c538c1$3bfb0f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><001601c538af$e13b0160$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <004201c538c1$3bfb0f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4250B1C9.3060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: > John wrote.... > >> Well, you didn't say "6' rack"... so what you want is a good used >> Cessna Caravan with the belly door mod.... > > > Yeah, actually I did ;) I said "to bring it on-topic (sortof), it > needs to have a 750 pound capacity and a 6' by 21" cargo area"... I > figured everyone knew those dimensions were for rescuing a rack of > gear. The 750 pound capacity is exclusive of pilot & baggage :) Well not me ... I figured the 6' x ... was storage space for the plane, thus the slash dot link. Check the link since that is neat plane even if you can haul puter's ... 750 lb's still seems low for the BIG puter stuff. Ben alias woodelf From cctalk at randy482.com Sun Apr 3 22:25:01 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 22:25:01 -0500 Subject: Corrosion pains References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <000c01c538c5$e664b6c0$953cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Parker, Kevin" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:27 PM > Appreciate a little bit of advice from the list please. > > I started getting my shed full of gear in order on the weekend. > Following a renno of the kitchen the plan is to rebuild the kitchen > cupboards in the shed to provide additional storage. > > I noted when moving stuff around on the weekend that some corrosion has > set into DB plugs and PS2 connectors etc. Fortunately its on a couple of > AT machines of which I have about a zillion so its not a big drama but > I'm more concerned about the longer term effects on my more precious > assets. > > Storing stuff in the house would be great but that also equates to > divorce :-) > > How do people store their computer stuff medium to long term. > > ++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Consultant > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > m: 0418 806 166 > e: kparker at workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com It'll get you no matter what you do: If it's damp corrosion sets in. If it's try the caps will go bad. If vermin gets to it they will gnaw on everything. Dry is always best to reduce corrosion the true bane of electronics, it acts like cancer. Put everything on wooden platforms and make sure there is air circulation, if you want to cover it to keep dust etc off cotton material is better than plastic. If you find corrosion on anything of value get a brass brush (size of a toothbrush) and clean it well. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Sun Apr 3 22:35:13 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 20:35:13 -0700 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? Message-ID: <4250B5F1.7030901@ix.netcom.com> David Corbin wrote: >>> On Behalf Of Billy Pettit > > >>>He left most of his estate to his church. The fanzines were left to a >>>University collection. He mentioned this is letters and conversations - >>>but not in the will. > >>>But probate ruled that the church gets everything since it wasn't in the >>>will. The church wass fighting to keep the stuff because they smell big >>>money. > > If they smell money, they are unlikely to scrap it off the top. They should > be contacted... > >>>So the collection now is lost to the group that would appreciate it >>>most. I know of two major collections of science fiction lost the same >>>way. > > See above...were they really lost??? > > >>>One of them was original art worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. > > Sounds like money to me.. > > > This does not changer the fact that you NEED to document your desires to > make sure the person (o organization) YOU WANT gets your posessions... > > But it its CRITICAL to differentiate something which is lost/DESTROYED from > something that merely goes to a different destination.. > The difference is not as big as you think. These collections usually are taken to auction houses. They sort out the few items that can sell for big bucks. The rest are discarded. Once in a while they will be sold by the pound. But ususally it goes in the dumpster. Thus the best sf collection ever put together, that of Sam Moskowitz, now is about 5% of its original size. Worse, the desisions relative to what to keep, are made by appraisers with limited information. They research but the info is not always accurate, or subject to misunderstanding. For example, the recent article on Business Week online could mislead an appraiser about the value of PDP-8s. It mentions the different models, but doesn't include all the info on how to tell rare from common. That's what happened to the fanzine collection I mentioned. The lawyer found a collection that had been donated with a huge assigned value. So he concluded all fanzine collections were worth a few hundred thousand. You see it all the time on eBay, all those "solid gold rare" Apple IIs for hundreds of dollars. The saddest of all is that those items that are not easy to research, that don't have a lot info on the Internet or books. So their true rarety and value is not appreciated. As an example, the recent April fool joke, what is the value of a G-15? How would a person know? Billy From rimmer at xs4all.nl Sat Apr 2 14:37:13 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2005 22:37:13 +0200 Subject: Tools for arching standard floppies Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050402223521.033b31a0@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, I was wondering if any of you know any good free tools for archiving floppy's on a standard IBM compatible PC ? Dont have a catweasel yet but do want to archive some standard floppy disks already. So if anyone has any good idea's, please let me know. Thanks! Stefan. From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Sun Apr 3 16:10:01 2005 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vince Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2005 14:10:01 -0700 Subject: TU56 Capacitor Repair Message-ID: <01ea01c53891$803382c0$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> I have described my replacement of a burst TU56 motor-run capacitor at http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/tu56repair.html I am particularly interested in feedback about the mounting solution -- is it ingeniously simple, or a horrible kludge :-)? There is a new version of my web-site there for the browsing, too (though most of the log entries are still stubbed out). Vince From bentley02 at alltel.net Sat Apr 2 09:51:24 2005 From: bentley02 at alltel.net (Bentley) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2005 07:51:24 -0800 Subject: HP ThinkJet 2225P Message-ID: <003601c5379b$d3efe4e0$1ecd27a2@pavilion> I was wondering if anyone ever came up with the Pinout for this printer and if so if they could send it to me. Thanks From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Sat Apr 2 19:00:57 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 02:00:57 +0100 Subject: Freecycle: another route to free computer junk In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> Message-ID: On Apr 1, 2005 7:20 PM, John Foust wrote: > It would be great to filter the messages that contain the word "computer" > or "fish tank" or whatever you're hunting for. At a simple level, > you could do it with your mail-reader's filters. This used to exist as a web-based service - it was called http://www.freecyclewatch.org. They took it down (presumably due to a request from the Freecycle people themselves, at a guess?) - I don't know how long ago. Ed. From cb at mythtech.net Sun Apr 3 22:57:22 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:57:22 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download Message-ID: >I gave Chris maybe 8 ~ 12 unique models IIRC. Sometime later he had >a crash of storage space... I have almost no idea how many he kept. I actually found users for most of them. Many of them were repeats of the IIci, and LC 1, 2, 3 series. A number didn't work, and were combined into functioning machines. All the 68040 machines (mostly Performa 63x) that I didn't keep were given to new homes, as well as most of the LC models. The IIci's were surprisingly hard to place and in the end most were stripped for parts and traded off in pieces. I did keep a few that were the "rarer" models (like the IIvx and MacTV, as well as one each of the LC versions, IIci, and IIsi... I also kept some of the 68040's, in fact, I currently run my mail and web servers off them, the mail servers are running the Mac OS, and the web servers are Mac68k NetBSD). I'm no where near having one of every model however. At one point I wanted to make such a collection, but alas, it will be some time before I have that kind of storage space available to me again. >Somebody just gave me my first G3. Very good looking machine. >Even has that prominent DEC chip (21154 PCI) to look at. Can't wait >to load something on it. Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. -chris From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 3 23:43:09 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 00:43:09 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download References: Message-ID: <0e7701c538d0$cdfa1980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Hi Chris, > Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. Not sure, due to lack of paper info, but the "blue/clear tower". I hope "format disk" is included on most CD's. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: chris To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 11:57 PM Subject: Re: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download >I gave Chris maybe 8 ~ 12 unique models IIRC. Sometime later he had >a crash of storage space... I have almost no idea how many he kept. I actually found users for most of them. Many of them were repeats of the IIci, and LC 1, 2, 3 series. A number didn't work, and were combined into functioning machines. All the 68040 machines (mostly Performa 63x) that I didn't keep were given to new homes, as well as most of the LC models. The IIci's were surprisingly hard to place and in the end most were stripped for parts and traded off in pieces. I did keep a few that were the "rarer" models (like the IIvx and MacTV, as well as one each of the LC versions, IIci, and IIsi... I also kept some of the 68040's, in fact, I currently run my mail and web servers off them, the mail servers are running the Mac OS, and the web servers are Mac68k NetBSD). I'm no where near having one of every model however. At one point I wanted to make such a collection, but alas, it will be some time before I have that kind of storage space available to me again. >Somebody just gave me my first G3. Very good looking machine. >Even has that prominent DEC chip (21154 PCI) to look at. Can't wait >to load something on it. Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. -chris From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 3 23:45:31 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:45:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <575131af05040306005a84c50c@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Apr 3, 5 02:00:38 pm" Message-ID: <200504040445.UAA15072@floodgap.com> > > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered > > OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. > > This is not news, and you haven't read the page thoroughly. You didn't read the mail I sent afterwards thoroughly either, where my Apple contact is checking into it after I *did* read the page thoroughly, did you? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin -------------------- From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 23:51:15 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 21:51:15 -0700 Subject: Freecycle: another route to free computer junk In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050401120732.04c06aa8@mail> Message-ID: If you have a good neighborhood it might be a good idea to check freecycle. It is really dedicated to keeping stuff out of the landfill ands sets up a method of gifting. You are supposed to sign up for your local area. I think it is good for collectors as the idea really is to keep it out of the landfill. Unfortunitely wading through the misc to get to the computer stuff can be laborous. The gems are far and few between in the listings. It is not designed for resellers although that is allowed if you clearly tell the person who is giving you the stuff what you are intending to do with it. I am the Clatsop County Freecycle list owner and moderator for my area of the northwest coast of Oregon. Actually I was just given the list as the previous owner and moderator left the area. I am learning a lot. I can try to answer any questions off the list. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 4 01:10:27 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2005 23:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? In-Reply-To: <4250B5F1.7030901@ix.netcom.com> References: <4250B5F1.7030901@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <36553.64.169.63.74.1112595027.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Billy wrote: > The saddest of all is that those items that are not easy to research, > that don't have a lot info on the Internet or books. So their true > rarety and value is not appreciated. As an example, the recent April > fool joke, what is the value of a G-15? How would a person know? Even some more recent stuff is basically unobtanium. I've been trying to get an ETHZ Lilith, but the only person I've found who has one thinks it's wirth its weight in gold. Eric From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Apr 4 02:43:28 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 09:43:28 +0200 (MEST) Subject: TK60 ;-) DEC CompacTape I/II bastard Message-ID: <24364.1112600608@www37.gmx.net> Michael Sokolov wrote: > I have previously heard of people connecting TK50 drives to TK70 > controllers. Supposedly it results in better performance. I don't know > if you lose the ability to write TK50 tapes this way or not. > > This is the first time I hear about the opposite combination, but I have > to assume it works - whoever put it together obviously had it working, > otherwise the combo you have in your hands would not exist. MS Er - couldn't it? It was junked, and nobody had bothered to make the cover fit again. So it might just have been a try (say the original TK50 was dead) to install a TK70, which didn't work and was subsequently abandoned. On the other hand, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > The TZK50 controller (which converts TKbus to SCSI) works with > both units. The TK70 is smart enough to "fall back" to the > slower TK50 data mode, so it'll just act like a faster (and > somewhat more reliable) TK50 drive. So it should work (and opinions differ whether the TK50 or the TK70 is more reliable); the case front is the only issue. I see three possibilities: -Running the thing without case (possibly bad idea, the resistor board in the upper left seems to need constant directed air flow) or just without front panel (ugly, things can get in) -Widening the front panel cutout enough to accomodate the TK70 panel, or trimming the transport's front bezel enough to fit in the hole (requires irreversible modifications on original parts, so perhaps bad idea; however, it looks doable without major damage) -producing a new case front with a bigger opening (time for some wood-carving?) But, as I don't need it now, there is still the alternative of waiting for a TK50 transport to fall from heaven. The TK70 could be removed from the enclosure and used to (at least temporarily) substitute the TK50 which is missing in our MicroVAX II (BA123 housing) in the university museum. Its frontpanel has an opening which is big enough, curiously. (I had it home over the weekend to repair the door hinge, st*p*d plastic pin had broken off, hole was drilled in and a metal bolt inserted instead). -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Handyrechnung zu hoch? Tipp: SMS und MMS mit GMX Seien Sie so frei: Alle Infos unter http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freesms From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Apr 4 03:20:37 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:20:37 +0100 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <083801c538bb$e0ee98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <083801c538bb$e0ee98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <4250F8D5.4070703@gjcp.net> John Allain wrote: > > Is anybody trying to collect a complete set of ALL the Mac hardware? > >>There is a tremendous variety from the middle years. > > > I gave Chris maybe 8 ~ 12 unique models IIRC. Sometime later he had > a crash of storage space... I have almost no idea how many he kept. > - > Somebody just gave me my first G3. Very good looking machine. > Even has that prominent DEC chip (21154 PCI) to look at. Can't wait > to load something on it. It's well offtopic, but I recently got a beige G3 - either a 233MHz or 266MHz, can't really remember. Anyway, I installed Mac OSX 10.2 on it, and it goes really well. Turning off anti-aliasing improved things a bit, but it was quite usable even with it. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Apr 4 03:38:12 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:38:12 +0100 Subject: D.G. Nova update (boo f'ing hoo) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4250FCF4.2040905@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>>Didn't some winchesters use the spindle motor as a generator to provide >>>the emergency retraction current? >> >> The drives used in PC do that and have for many years but I never saw a >>mainframe disk drive that did. > > > Yes, I was thinking of things like full-height 5.25" units. Larger > drives often had AC spindle motors which would clearly be unsuitable for > this trick (well, at least not simply...) > > -tony > I remember seeing bits of what were apparently a Wang disk drive lying around a mate's workshop. It had a very funky head retract mechanism, with an interlock that held everything in place with the heads retracted, a solenoid that pulled in on power good (and dropped out on power fail), and a big spring with an air piston, like an air rifle, that was fired when the solenoid dropped out with the heads extended, blowing a ram on the positioner assembly all the way back. Once this had happened, you needed to open the cover and re-cock the spring. Gordon. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Apr 4 03:50:51 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 09:50:51 +0100 Subject: Neat site: "Homebrew CPU" In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050403194325.0c129ea8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050403194325.0c129ea8@localhost> Message-ID: In message <5.1.0.14.2.20050403194325.0c129ea8 at localhost> Tom Peters wrote: > That seems to be a dead link, at least from here. Grr. That's what I get for manually copying a URL from one machine to another at 1:35AM. Here's the (hopefully) working link: Later, -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Once you understand your computer it is obsolete From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Apr 4 05:53:47 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 06:53:47 -0400 Subject: BDV11/M8012 Manual? In-Reply-To: <415034E9.7040901@hp.com> References: <414D3143.CE614FB5@groenenberg.net> <415034E9.7040901@hp.com> Message-ID: <42511CBB.3040404@splab.cas.neu.edu> Did you ever find the soft copy? I have the hardcopy information in: Digital Micromputer Interfacts Handbook, 1980. 28 pages of it., Joe Heck Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Quick one: > Anybody has softcopy manual of BDV11? Or at least notes on jumper > configs... > > Looked at all the usual places, but didn't come up with anything... > > /wai-sun > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 4 05:58:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:58:18 +0000 Subject: Sun 4/330 revisited... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112612298.18074.23.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-03 at 18:43 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > Right. It's *not* the 8530 SCC chip that's faulty, but it's *not* the > > data bus either - there's plenty of bus activity so bit 6 isn't > > permanently jammed high. > > > > After checking the bus, I replaced the SCC chip with a socket and tried > > my spare SCC chip from home (remarkably easy job as it turned out) - > > gave exactly the same results on the console. > > > First thought : There's some other device -- maybe soemthing like an > interrupt vector source buffer -- that's being enabled along with the > Z8530. Of course this might be inside that LSI chip you mention. Mention of interrupts is interesting... Actually, the machine has two SCC chips (each having two ports) for a total of four serial ports. One daisy-chains the interrupt line from the other. What I thought was the bad SCC (which runs the console port #1 and serial port #2) is actually at the end of the chain - I suppose it's possible that the other SCC (running ports #3 and #4) is causing problems. I'll see where else that interrupt line goes to too... > > I can't do much about 1 and 2 without knowing the pinouts of the LSI > > chip or having full schematics of the board :-( > > Well, there's a winter-evening project for you -- draw out the > schematics. Problem is there are a lot of unknowns on the board - at least 30 PAL chips, plus a handful of Sun chips having around 200 pins each for which there are likely no specs in the public domain :-( Of course, tracing as much as I can to do with the serial circuitry might be an option, and may show up some useful things to test. cheers Jules From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 07:19:31 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 07:19:31 -0500 Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffic e.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> At 09:27 PM 4/3/2005, Parker, Kevin wrote: >I noted when moving stuff around on the weekend that some corrosion has >set into DB plugs and PS2 connectors etc. I was hunting for odd bits in my piles the other night and was shocked at the decay of several plastic parts. The ends of a set of GPIB cables for an old CBM disk drive were covered in a white powder coating - not mold, but slow decay of the plastic. Other plastic bits went from flexible to stiff to the point of breakage. This is in a heated basement. The humidity might be a bit higher than I want, but I do run a dehumidifier in the maximum of summer. It's never damp enough to rust metal. I wonder if ozone is a concern. I do have two Proliant servers running down there. My kids wanted to see a Commodore 64 in action. It took me a while to find a combo to get from RCA to cable (F?), and sadly it didn't work well on a TV with today's automatic tuning. The sound was barely audible. Clearly I needed a cheaper TV. I couldn't find (and didn't remember if I ever had) the Y/c / audio cable for the C-64. - John From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 07:45:22 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 13:45:22 +0100 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <0e7701c538d0$cdfa1980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <0e7701c538d0$cdfa1980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <575131af0504040545ffbaafe@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2005 5:43 AM, John Allain wrote: > Hi Chris, > > > Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. > > Not sure, due to lack of paper info, but the "blue/clear tower". > I hope "format disk" is included on most CD's. Nice machine. Around 350-400MHz G3, 100MHz FSB, ATI Rage128 graphics. Runs classic MacOS up to the final 9.2.2 and OS X up to and including Panther (10.3) and probably Tiger (10.4). If it has enough RAM - and I think it'll take standard PC100 SDRAM - it'll happily dual-boot between 9.2.2 and 10.3.8, but it will only really shine under the latter OS, which is arguably the world's finest GUI desktop OS ever. Any old MacOS 9 CD will install it, as will any old OS X CD. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 4 07:51:26 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:51:26 -0400 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? References: <4250B5F1.7030901@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <001301c53915$1f151920$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > As an example, ...what is the value of a G-15? > How would a person know? And as seems obvious, based on list observation, those that Do know have about $100. discretionary bucks to their name. What value indeed. I _do_ believe that this list, when used as a network, could somehow find funders for the more important collections. But is that just the 5% / 95% cut-off and throw-away situation again? John A. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 4 07:53:28 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:53:28 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download References: <0e7701c538d0$cdfa1980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <575131af0504040545ffbaafe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000e01c53915$553c2a70$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 8:45 AM Subject: Re: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download > On Apr 4, 2005 5:43 AM, John Allain wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > > Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. > > > > Not sure, due to lack of paper info, but the "blue/clear tower". > > I hope "format disk" is included on most CD's. > > Nice machine. Around 350-400MHz G3, 100MHz FSB, ATI Rage128 graphics. > Runs classic MacOS up to the final 9.2.2 and OS X up to and including > Panther (10.3) and > probably Tiger (10.4). If it has enough RAM - and I think it'll take > standard PC100 SDRAM - it'll happily dual-boot between 9.2.2 and > 10.3.8, but it will only really shine under the latter OS, which is > arguably the world's finest GUI desktop OS ever. Any old MacOS 9 CD > will install it, as will any old OS X CD. > > > -- > Liam Proven > Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com > AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com Too bad those didn't have AGP slots for newer video cards. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 08:08:33 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:08:33 +0800 Subject: BDV11/M8012 Manual? In-Reply-To: <42511CBB.3040404@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <414D3143.CE614FB5@groenenberg.net> <415034E9.7040901@hp.com> <42511CBB.3040404@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2005 6:53 PM, joe heck wrote: > Did you ever find the soft copy? I have the hardcopy information in: No softcopy, but I've since acquired the Interfaces Handbook too,. I have both the 1980 and 1983/84 version. Thanks for caring. :-) > > Digital Micromputer Interfacts Handbook, 1980. > > 28 pages of it., > > Joe Heck > /wai-sun From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 4 08:15:16 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 06:15:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? In-Reply-To: <36553.64.169.63.74.1112595027.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from Eric Smith at "Apr 3, 5 11:10:27 pm" Message-ID: <200504041315.FAA10366@floodgap.com> > Even some more recent stuff is basically unobtanium. I've been trying > to get an ETHZ Lilith, but the only person I've found who has one thinks > it's wirth its weight in gold. Nice pun. :) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It is the business of the future to be dangerous. -- Hawkwind -------------- From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 08:18:04 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 08:18:04 -0500 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? In-Reply-To: <200504041315.FAA10366@floodgap.com> References: <36553.64.169.63.74.1112595027.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <200504041315.FAA10366@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404081706.0502f880@mail> At 08:15 AM 4/4/2005, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Even some more recent stuff is basically unobtanium. I've been trying >> to get an ETHZ Lilith, but the only person I've found who has one thinks >> it's wirth its weight in gold. > >Nice pun. :) From http://www.threedee.com/jcm/psystem/index.html : "Europeans call him by name, but Americans call him by value." - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 4 09:30:11 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:30:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <4250F8D5.4070703@gjcp.net> References: <083801c538bb$e0ee98a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <4250F8D5.4070703@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <3614.135.196.108.27.1112625011.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > It's well offtopic, but I recently got a beige G3 - either a 233MHz or > 266MHz, can't really remember. Anyway, I installed Mac OSX 10.2 on it, > and it goes really well. Turning off anti-aliasing improved things a > bit, but it was quite usable even with it. I think yours must be a 266, purely because I've got a 233 that's sluggish even with (I think) 384mb RAM and OS9. One of my customers has some 266s on the shelf and they seem much quicker for some reason, even with less memory. I wouldn't mind sticking OSX on mine just to see how it runs! cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From James at jdfogg.com Mon Apr 4 09:38:16 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:38:16 -0400 Subject: Corrosion pains Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EB4@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I was hunting for odd bits in my piles the other night and > was shocked at the decay of several plastic parts. The ends > of a set of GPIB cables for an old CBM disk drive were > covered in a white powder coating - not mold, but slow decay > of the plastic. This might still be mold. There are thousands of types of mold, and they all need to "eat" what they grow on. I'm battling mold now that I'm sorting/cleaning my basement. Lots of surprises, as there seems to be a mold type for just about any material. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 09:46:25 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:46:25 +0100 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations Message-ID: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> A person in Fulham, London, UK, is trying to give away 3 Sun3 workstations & not having much interest. Anyone fancy one? Mail them directly. I've talked to them & they asked me to plug the machines if I could. I'd love one myself but I have no space for them. :?( From: Kake L Pugh Date: Apr 4, 2005 11:58 AM Subject: [FreeCycleLondon] OFFERED: Sun 3 computers, SW6 To: freecyclelondon at yahoogroups.com Note: these are old computers, and they are large. You will need a car. Collect before Sunday 17th April, please. Take one, two, or all three! We're in SW6, just off Fulham Palace Road. Two of the machines are diskless, but it's straightforward to boot them over the network, and I'd be happy to lend a hand to get them to do so. The enormous monitors mean they make excellent X terminals with nice big text. You can boot them straight into X, or you can run an OS on them in diskless mode. I've run SunOS 4 and NetBSD on them; I believe it's now possible to run linux as well. snack has a disk with SunOS installed, so doesn't need to boot over the network. It has a hybrid X server which supports the NeWS windowing system. stinky: Sun 3/50, 4MB RAM, 16MHz 68020 CPU with floating-point coprocessor pizzabox case 10base2 ethernet Huge 1152x900 monochrome monitor snipe: Sun 3/140, 16MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. 3-VME-slot case: can either sit flat with a monitor on top, or stand freely. Huge 1152x900 monochrome monitor AUI network (but I can throw in an AUI->10base2 transceiver free) This machine has no fan! It's very quiet as a result. snack: Sun 3/60, 20MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. pizzabox case colour framebuffer and colour monitor 10base2 ethernet ~100MB disk drive with SunOS and OpenWindows installed See http://www.sunstuff.org/hardware/systems/sun3/ for more details. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 4 10:06:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:06:14 +0000 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 15:46 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > A person in Fulham, London, UK, is trying to give away 3 Sun3 > workstations & not having much interest. Anyone fancy one? > ... > Sun 3/50, 4MB RAM, 16MHz 68020 CPU with floating-point coprocessor > Sun 3/140, 16MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. > Sun 3/60, 20MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. Possible I could take the 3/60 and 3/140 for the museum if nobody else wants (will email the person and let them know this). We've already got a 3/50 so not much point us having another one (unless it's got a 3rd party memory expansion board in it). I doubt I'd get all three in the car anyway (for weight reasons rather than space) cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 10:29:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:29:19 -0500 Subject: Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2005 7:10 PM, Jay West wrote: > But to tie it in to > on-topic (it's a reach), I came home and started pondering with the wife > exactly what plane I could get that is economical to fly but has a payload > weight of about 750 pounds with a 6 foot by 21 inch cargo spot....... ;) If you come up with a good candidate, let me know.... I wonder the same thing myself from time to time, and I just had my Biennial Flight Review the other day. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 4 10:34:39 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 08:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > My kids wanted to see a Commodore 64 in action. It took me a > while to find a combo to get from RCA to cable (F?), and sadly > it didn't work well on a TV with today's automatic tuning. > The sound was barely audible. Clearly I needed a cheaper TV. > I couldn't find (and didn't remember if I ever had) the Y/c / > audio cable for the C-64. You might have a C64 with a bad sound chip, which is not uncommon. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 10:52:42 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:52:42 -0500 Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404105159.0502f568@mail> At 10:34 AM 4/4/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >You might have a C64 with a bad sound chip, which is not uncommon. Yes, I knew about that... "But it was working fine when I put it into storage 20 years ago." I have a few other C128-ish machines I can try. At least my 1541 disk drive still appeared to work. That's more of a miracle. - John From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 4 10:58:32 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 11:58:32 -0400 Subject: Corrosion pains Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050404115832.00aff880@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If I was going to keep anything in an outside building I would first seal it in a plastic trash bag to keep the varmits and bugs out of it. I would probably help if you could put some kind of dissicant pack in the bag as well. Then box it in a sturdy box to protect it and the bag and it should keep fine. I have a friend that has books this way and stored them in an outside shed and they've kept fine for over ten years. Considering the heat, bugs and humidity here in Florida that's little short of a miracle! Joe At 11:57 AM 4/4/05 +0930, you wrote: > >Appreciate a little bit of advice from the list please. > >I started getting my shed full of gear in order on the weekend. >Following a renno of the kitchen the plan is to rebuild the kitchen >cupboards in the shed to provide additional storage. > >I noted when moving stuff around on the weekend that some corrosion has >set into DB plugs and PS2 connectors etc. Fortunately its on a couple of >AT machines of which I have about a zillion so its not a big drama but >I'm more concerned about the longer term effects on my more precious >assets. > >Storing stuff in the house would be great but that also equates to >divorce :-) > >How do people store their computer stuff medium to long term. > >++++++++++ >Kevin Parker >Web Services Consultant >WorkCover Corporation > >p: 08 8233 2548 >m: 0418 806 166 >e: kparker at workcover.com >w: www.workcover.com > >++++++++++ > >************************************************************************ >This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may >contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality >and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you >are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > >Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the >WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have >been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files >transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > >If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender >immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any >copies. >************************************************************************ > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 10:59:50 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:59:50 -0500 Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> Message-ID: On Apr 4, 2005 7:19 AM, John Foust wrote: > I was hunting for odd bits in my piles the other night and was > shocked at the decay of several plastic parts. The ends of a > set of GPIB cables for an old CBM disk drive were covered in a > white powder coating - not mold, but slow decay of the plastic. I have been seeing the same thing with my C= GPIB cables (as well as certain tool handles from the same era). AFAIK, it's inevitable with that sort of plastic. -ethan From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Apr 4 11:22:42 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 12:22:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment In-Reply-To: References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 3, 2005 7:10 PM, Jay West wrote: >> But to tie it in to >> on-topic (it's a reach), I came home and started pondering with the wife >> exactly what plane I could get that is economical to fly but has a payload >> weight of about 750 pounds with a 6 foot by 21 inch cargo spot....... ;) > > If you come up with a good candidate, let me know.... I wonder the > same thing myself from time to time, and I just had my Biennial Flight > Review the other day. > > -ethan > ObClassiccmp: While getting my licence, I and my instructor flew a (then brand-new) Cessna 182RG out to a regoinal airport in Southern California where I met a previous Listmember and we transferred the entire RT11 set of docs in several heavy boxes from the trunk of his car to the back of the airplane, then had lunch and flew back to Santa Monica, well over a hundred pounds heavier... Instructor just shook his head... flying Geeks.... Cheers John From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 4 11:36:17 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:36:17 +0200 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? Now Lilith... In-Reply-To: <36553.64.169.63.74.1112595027.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: Am maandag, 04.04.05, um 08:10 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Eric Smith: > Billy wrote: >> The saddest of all is that those items that are not easy to research, >> that don't have a lot info on the Internet or books. So their true >> rarety and value is not appreciated. As an example, the recent April >> fool joke, what is the value of a G-15? How would a person know? > > Even some more recent stuff is basically unobtanium. I've been trying > to get an ETHZ Lilith, but the only person I've found who has one > thinks > it's wirth its weight in gold. I got my Lilith for just 100 CHF, not all that long ago....Mind you, the thing still has disk problems. The original OS designer claims that the drive were temperamentfull right from the beginning. But at least I have a fully working set of boards and the keyboard is fully OK now. (Thanks Sellam !) I know of at least 4 Lilith's in private hands. Plenty more that G-15 's... Jos From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 4 11:43:05 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:43:05 +0200 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9E233F68-A528-11D9-A6B3-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> My 9133, which originated this thread, is a 9133D, with a single controllerboard, one DS floppy and a ST419 15MB MFM disk, a disk which is clearly older than the ST225 ( it is similar in construction to a ST506 or ST412) First problem with the drive turned out to be severe head stiction. It is spinning now, so I might yet be able to coerce some life out of it. Jos From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 12:20:44 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:20:44 +0100 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <575131af05040410206b6f348e@mail.gmail.com> Oh good. If I had the space, I'd love them myself, but my house is already full of computers as it is. Best mail him, not me; I'm merely passing on the message! On Apr 4, 2005 4:06 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 15:46 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > A person in Fulham, London, UK, is trying to give away 3 Sun3 > > workstations & not having much interest. Anyone fancy one? > > ... > > Sun 3/50, 4MB RAM, 16MHz 68020 CPU with floating-point coprocessor > > Sun 3/140, 16MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. > > Sun 3/60, 20MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. > > Possible I could take the 3/60 and 3/140 for the museum if nobody else > wants (will email the person and let them know this). > > We've already got a 3/50 so not much point us having another one (unless > it's got a 3rd party memory expansion board in it). I doubt I'd get all > three in the car anyway (for weight reasons rather than space) > > cheers > > Jules > > -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com Tel: +44(0)20-8685-0498 * Mobile: +44(0)7939-087884 AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From willisjo at zianet.com Mon Apr 4 11:16:36 2005 From: willisjo at zianet.com (willisjo at zianet.com) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:16:36 -0600 Subject: VAX COBOL media, and RRD40 difficulties In-Reply-To: <200504032145.j33LjRaF092133@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504032145.j33LjRaF092133@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050404161636.88646.qmail@halo.zianet.com> IIRC, 5.7 is the latest version, though I don't believe it has been updated in a long time. The biggest reason for wanting 5.7 is because it supports full-screen I/O (i.e. ACCEPT and DISPLAY have features to support printing to or taking input from a specified point on the screen). I do believe 5.7 came out after 1997, but not sure when. I had bought a TK50 of 5.1 off eBay, but FedEx delivered it with no signature, and I can't find the package anywhere on the grounds of my small 8-unit apartment complex. On a side note, I have an RRD40 with RRD50 controller for the uVAX II the COBOL is intended to be used on, but I received it with no caddies. Sure wish DEC had used the same caddies that everyone else in the industry used, and not some proprietary junk. Anyone have leads on caddies? If so, please reply off-list. Also, when I installed the RRD50, the system passes boot-up diagnostics, but VMS now crashes on bootup. Any pointers? Thanks much, John Adrian Graham writes: >> Any version is good, but 5.1 would be great and 5.7 would be awesome. > > K, do you have an approximate date for 5.7? I can cover much of the 90s > CDDS.... > > cheers > > a > > John P. Willis Coherent Logic Development From vrs at msn.com Mon Apr 4 12:42:57 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 10:42:57 -0700 Subject: Corrosion pains References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local><6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> Message-ID: > On Apr 4, 2005 7:19 AM, John Foust wrote: > > I was hunting for odd bits in my piles the other night and was > > shocked at the decay of several plastic parts. The ends of a > > set of GPIB cables for an old CBM disk drive were covered in a > > white powder coating - not mold, but slow decay of the plastic. > > I have been seeing the same thing with my C= GPIB cables (as well as > certain tool handles from the same era). AFAIK, it's inevitable with > that sort of plastic. My RK05F has a white powdery junk all over the inside, and all the plastic bits have hardened (some have shattered). Is this the same problem? I figured something had caused all the plasticizer to boil out or something. Vince From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Mon Apr 4 12:45:17 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:45:17 +0100 Subject: Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <001601c5393e$10cdb740$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Jay West" > I came home and started pondering with the wife > exactly what plane I could get that is economical to fly but has a payload > weight of about 750 pounds with a 6 foot by 21 inch cargo spot....... ;) > > Jay West > > DC3 springs to mind, and I happen to know that the FAA still has a couple of redundant ones (nicely kitted out with 19" racking in the back......) If your looking for a single, try something from De Havilland Canada they made several interesting little aircraft for bush flying. Jim. From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Mon Apr 4 11:12:47 2005 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:12:47 +0200 Subject: AVAILABLE: complete SunOS 4.1.4 documentation set (two boxes) Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413A9F6@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> .. in The Netherlands, pickup only. NO SHIPPING. Cheers, Fred From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Apr 4 13:29:37 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:29:37 +0200 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? Now Lilith... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050404163630.13B5439469@linux.local> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:36:17 +0200, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >Am maandag, 04.04.05, um 08:10 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Eric Smith: > : >I got my Lilith for just 100 CHF, not all that long ago....Mind you, >the thing still has disk problems. >The original OS designer claims that the drive were temperamentfull >right from the beginning. >But at least I have a fully working set of boards and the keyboard is >fully OK now. (Thanks Sellam !) > >I know of at least 4 Lilith's in private hands. Plenty more that G-15 >'s... > ... i assume, that none of those 4 want's to give it away :( Ciao Bernd From bernd at kopriva.de Mon Apr 4 13:30:18 2005 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:30:18 +0200 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <9E233F68-A528-11D9-A6B3-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <20050404163710.BAF9139469@linux.local> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:43:05 +0200, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > >My 9133, which originated this thread, is a 9133D, with a single >controllerboard, one DS floppy and a ST419 15MB MFM disk, a disk which >is clearly older than the ST225 ( it is similar in construction to a >ST506 or ST412) > Mine is a 9133D too, but it uses a ST-225 ... Ciao Bernd From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 13:42:48 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:42:48 +0100 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 4, 2005 4:06 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 15:46 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > > A person in Fulham, London, UK, is trying to give away 3 Sun3 > > workstations & not having much interest. Anyone fancy one? > > ... > > Sun 3/50, 4MB RAM, 16MHz 68020 CPU with floating-point coprocessor > > Sun 3/140, 16MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. > > Sun 3/60, 20MHz 68020 with floating-point coprocessor. > > Possible I could take the 3/60 and 3/140 for the museum if nobody else > wants (will email the person and let them know this). > > We've already got a 3/50 so not much point us having another one (unless > it's got a 3rd party memory expansion board in it). I doubt I'd get all > three in the car anyway (for weight reasons rather than space) > > cheers > > Jules > > As I'm coming up there with a van I could pick them up for you, but I'm not coming up until the 24th. Dan From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Apr 4 14:11:41 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 15:11:41 -0400 Subject: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment) In-Reply-To: References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> >John Lawson wrote: > >On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> If you come up with a good candidate, let me know.... I wonder the >> same thing myself from time to time, and I just had my Biennial Flight >> Review the other day. > > ObClassiccmp: While getting my licence, I and my instructor flew a > (then brand-new) Cessna 182RG out to a regoinal airport in Southern > California where I met a previous Listmember and we transferred the > entire RT11 set of docs in several heavy boxes from the trunk of his > car to the back of the airplane, then had lunch and flew back to Santa > Monica, well over a hundred pounds heavier... Jerome Fine replies: Your reply is the most on-topic post I gave seen this week. What could be more important than a (complete - if it weighs more than a hundred pounds) DOC set for RT-11. The last set of complete DOCs for V05.06 of RT-11 was released on August 31st, 1992 or much more than 10 years ago. There are 13 volumes (numbered from 1 to 12 but with a 5a and a 5b), but I doubt they weigh over a hundred pounds since I can easily pick them all up at the same time. In fact I just did and asked my wife to read the scale since I can't see the dial while I am holding the carton. After subtracting my weight, the V05.06 DOC set weighs 49 lb. including the 13 medium size binders. So what was the additional 50 lb. since the DOC set has become larger and heavier over the years? I have a V05.04G DOC set squeezed into just 5 LARGE binders (down from the original 8 since these are all the largest size) that is only 39 lb. since there are so few binders. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 4 14:26:03 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:26:03 -0500 Subject: Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <001601c5393e$10cdb740$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <003a01c5394c$24b50cf0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Jim wrote... > DC3 springs to mind, and I happen to know that the FAA still has a couple > of > redundant ones (nicely kitted out with 19" racking in the back......) Cool! But bear in mind, I'm not looking to rackmount gear inside the airplane. I was only considering the need to pick up racks of gear and transport them back to my humble abode :) Jay From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Apr 4 14:29:13 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:29:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment) In-Reply-To: <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > weighs 49 lb. including the 13 medium size binders. > > So what was the additional 50 lb. since the DOC You bored, Jerry? There was *much* other doc, peripherals sets, programming manuals, the usual Stuff that accumulates over time on the shelves of someone heavily involved with the day-to-day running of a PDP11 system. We weighed it on a scale, of course - it was in excess of 100 pounds all-up - I'd have to dig out the logbook for that year where I recorded the actual wieght - because that, like picking up a passenger, has a bearing on the flight charcteristics (weight and balance calcs) and thus one's safety. But hey, thanks for calling me out on this one.... Cheers John From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 4 14:31:40 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:31:40 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 3800 info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <012501c5394c$ee3cb1e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> 9000 VAX wrote: > On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 13:06:18 -0600, Musicman > wrote: >> Can anyone point me to info on the MicroVax 3800? I may be > > MicroVax 3800 is the same as MicroVax 3900 except for the > fact that MicroVax 3900 is rack mounted with RA9X disk. I have > a MicroVax 3900 > bare box without the rack and disk at > http://www.wintersweet.com/computermuseum/VAX3900.html > A MicroVax 3800 is about the size of my 3900, weights around > 100LBs, > has KA655 cpu, MS650 memory, KDA50 disk controller and TQK70 > tape controller. The MicroVAX 3900 is rackmount only if you carefully remove the skins. It includes an RA8x (maybe even RA9x) only if it comes in an H9xxx cab (forget the exact number). The usual MicroVAX 3900 came in a BA213 (skunk box). The MicroVAX 3800 came in the slightly smaller and slightly less heavy BA215. You can find all sorts of info by heading over to Manx: http://vt100.net/manx and looking for BA213, BA215, KA650, KA655, MicroVAX 3800 and MicroVAX 3900. If that isn't enough reading, you can look here: http://www.mcmanis.com/chuck/computers/vaxen/fastvax.html for a BA213 and here: http://www.users.bigpond.com/vk3jaj/uvax3k5/ You should be able to find plenty more with google. Basically the 3200/35003600 use a KA650 and the 3800/3900 use the slightly faster KA655 processor. Almost everything is interchangeable between the various versions. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 4 14:40:45 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:40:45 +0100 Subject: VAX COBOL media, and RRD40 difficulties In-Reply-To: <20050404161636.88646.qmail@halo.zianet.com> Message-ID: <012601c5394e$32f3adb0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > On a side note, I have an RRD40 with RRD50 controller > for the uVAX II the COBOL is intended to be used on, > but I received it with no caddies. Sure wish DEC had > used the same caddies that everyone else in the industry > used, and not some proprietary junk. Anyone have leads > on caddies? If so, please reply off-list. I don't think they are DEC-designed caddies: the RRD50 and the later RRD40 are both (IIRC) Philips designs. The caddies are Philips - they invented the technology (with others) so I'm not sure you can label them proprietary. They were also either the first or nearly the first to do something other than a flip top (like the RRD50[1]). It's hard to follow the herd when you are riding point ... I've sent my last spare to another list member today. > > Also, when I installed the RRD50, the system passes > boot-up diagnostics, but VMS now crashes on bootup. Any > pointers? I'm pretty sure the KRQ50+RRD40 combo is supported (always assuming you have not bodged a SCSI-RRD40 to work there :-)). Unlike WXP, OpenVMS has plenty of crash diagnostic tools so this could be debugged. But before going down that path, I would carefully inspect your bus and make sure that you are not missing some grant card in there or have committed some other heinous sin. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Apr 4 14:55:57 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 21:55:57 +0200 Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? Now Lilith... In-Reply-To: <20050404163630.13B5439469@linux.local> Message-ID: <8F66DCF1-A543-11D9-A6B3-000A9586BBB0@bluewin.ch> >> > ... i assume, that none of those 4 want's to give it away :( > > Ciao Bernd That's a rather save bet... But if you are in Zurich, feel free to drop by to have a closer look. Jos From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 4 14:59:53 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 14:59:53 -0500 Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <00ca01c5393d$bdf70d00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> <00ca01c5393d$bdf70d00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404145743.05024af8@mail> At 12:42 PM 4/4/2005, vrs wrote: >> I have been seeing the same thing with my C= GPIB cables (as well as >> certain tool handles from the same era). AFAIK, it's inevitable with >> that sort of plastic. > >My RK05F has a white powdery junk all over the inside, and all the plastic >bits have hardened (some have shattered). Is this the same problem? I >figured something had caused all the plasticizer to boil out or something. Could be. I thought it was either a mold from old finger-residue or the plastic decaying. Any experts on plastic decay out there? Is it an out-gassing of plasticizer or infiltration of ozone, or both? - John From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Apr 4 15:16:16 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:16:16 -0400 Subject: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment) In-Reply-To: References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4251A090.3060107@compsys.to> John Lawson wrote: > >On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> weighs 49 lb. including the 13 medium size binders. >> So what was the additional 50 lb. since the DOC > > You bored, Jerry? > There was *much* other doc, peripherals sets, programming manuals, the > usual Stuff that accumulates over time on the shelves of someone > heavily involved with the day-to-day running of a PDP11 system. > We weighed it on a scale, of course - it was in excess of 100 pounds > all-up - I'd have to dig out the logbook for that year where I > recorded the actual wieght - because that, like picking up a > passenger, has a bearing on the flight charcteristics (weight and > balance calcs) and thus one's safety. Jerome Fine replies: I think that 49 lb. of DOC set for RT-11 is more than enough - although having seen a grey wall for VMS I am more than astounded - does anyone have the weight for the VMS DOC set? As for being bored, absolutely not. I just wanted to make sure that anyone who read your post had the corrected information. And I do appreciate the extra detail. I would assume that is actually a small collection - I think my shelves hold over a thousand pounds of documentation - most are either RT-11 or hardware DOCs. But this is not a contest as to the maximum size or weight, so everyone please do NOT reply that your collection is larger unless you have a documentation collection (hardware not accepted as a portion) that is at least a hundred times as larger or a hundred thousand pounds. > But hey, thanks for calling me out on this one.... Just trying to be sure that hobby RT-11 users are not scared away. The last thing I might have thought about was calling you out! It never even crossed my mind as a possibility. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 4 15:17:11 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 16:17:11 -0400 Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404145743.05024af8@mail> References: <00ca01c5393d$bdf70d00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> <00ca01c5393d$bdf70d00$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050404161711.00b24e10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:59 PM 4/4/05 -0500, you wrote: >At 12:42 PM 4/4/2005, vrs wrote: >>> I have been seeing the same thing with my C= GPIB cables (as well as >>> certain tool handles from the same era). AFAIK, it's inevitable with >>> that sort of plastic. >> >>My RK05F has a white powdery junk all over the inside, and all the plastic >>bits have hardened (some have shattered). Is this the same problem? I >>figured something had caused all the plasticizer to boil out or something. > >Could be. I thought it was either a mold from old finger-residue >or the plastic decaying. Any experts on plastic decay out there? >Is it an out-gassing of plasticizer or infiltration of ozone, or both? None of the above. It's a fungus! It used to be common on just about anything made of plastic* but must most companies include a fungicide in their formulas to reduce/eliminate it. The plastizer also oozes out of the plastic over time and the item becomes brittle. I don't know of anything to prevent that except perhaps to refrigerate it to reduce the rate of the chemical decomposition. The fungus is feeding off the plasticizer or the plastic itself, I'm not sure which. STP and ArmorAll sell products in the automotive stores that is supposed to reduce the rate of breakdown of plastics and rubber in automobiles. You might try some of those. But I think once the damage is done then there's nothing you can do about it. *Fungus on plastic was a huge problem in WW II in the pacific. The US military finally started adding a powerfull fungicide to their equipment to reduce it. That fungicide is that strong smell that you sometimes smell when you first open military items that have been sealed up for a long time. You still find a lot of military items marked "MRT". That stands for "Mildew Resistance Treatment". Joe From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 4 16:03:17 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QIC-02 Message-ID: <20050404210317.69898.qmail@web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all Looking for a QIC 02 drive for a Sun 3. This needs to be either the Archive 5945S or Wangtek 5099EG11 Actually I just need the bare tape drive as I have the MT02 board, shoebox, etc. Anything considered ... Thanks Ian. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Mon Apr 4 16:21:50 2005 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:21:50 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery Message-ID: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> OK, I posted about this a few weeks ago and now I have some more information. The drives in question are a ST-225 20MB (615/4/17) that came out of an XT (so would have been using a 8-bit controller) and a ST-238R 30MB (615/4/26) of unknown origin. I don't have or even know what the original controllers were, the machines were gutted/given away years ago by the owners. I have a 386 testbed which I'm using, and plan to laplink the files over to another machine once they are accessible. The only card in the 386 is a VGA card. Turbo is off. I have the following controllers: - WD1002A-27X 8-bit RLL - Adaptec ACB-2370A S2 16-bit RLL/floppy - WD1002SV-SR2 16-bit RLL/floppy - Everex EV-346 16-bit MFM/floppy I also have two Miniscribe 8438 30MB RLL drives. However, they were used with the 27X, which means the geometry is ambiguous depending on how the jumpers were set when it was formatted. Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. All of the drives spin up (the Miniscribes needed a little coaxing) and sound "healthy" as they dance their little self-test jigs. Here's where the trouble starts. I tried the ST-238R with all three of the RLL controllers. With the 27X and with no hard drive entered in the NVRAM setup, since the BIOS can't be disabled, it runs the BIOS, which can't figure out what's going on and returns a 1701 POST code. With both of the 16-bit RLL controllers, 615/4/26 entered in the NVRAM and the controller BIOS disabled, the drive makes a repetitive seeking sound like an ECC retry about twice a second, until eventually the BIOS gives up and returns Drive C: failure. What this seems to indicate to me is that the drive was formatted with different geometry, or the tracks have drifted so bad it can't get its bearings. I also tried the Miniscribe drives with the 27X for kicks. Everything sounds normal, including the long growl that I remember that drive/controller combo doing during POST. But, a 1701 is returned, which isn't normal - this drive *used* to work with this exact controller. The only MFM controller I have is the Everex, so I tried the ST-225 with that one, entering 615/4/17 in the NVRAM and disabling its BIOS. Unfortunately, I get mostly the same behavior as with the ST-238R; except that with this drive, the retry clicks are about a second or two apart. Eventually the BIOS gives up anyway. I'm fresh out of ideas at this point. Maybe I have a bad cable? Do I need to find the exact controller the drives were paired with - what were the most common ones for each drive? Is the 386 the problem, too fast for these cards? -- Ryan Underwood, From shirsch at adelphia.net Mon Apr 4 16:35:44 2005 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <575131af0504040545ffbaafe@mail.gmail.com> References: <0e7701c538d0$cdfa1980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <575131af0504040545ffbaafe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Liam Proven wrote: > On Apr 4, 2005 5:43 AM, John Allain wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > > > > Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. > > > > Not sure, due to lack of paper info, but the "blue/clear tower". > > I hope "format disk" is included on most CD's. > > Nice machine. Around 350-400MHz G3, 100MHz FSB, ATI Rage128 graphics. > Runs classic MacOS up to the final 9.2.2 and OS X up to and including > Panther (10.3) and > probably Tiger (10.4). If it has enough RAM - and I think it'll take > standard PC100 SDRAM Be careful! All Macs up to and including the Grey G4 towers (and perhaps newer) require low-density SDRAM. These can be deceptively difficult to find unless you keep your eyes open. I can tell you from experience that newer PC100/PC133 memory will not work reliably, if the machine even boots at all. For 256M, at least, the correct modules will have chips on both sides. Steve From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 4 16:38:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:38:48 +0000 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 16:21 -0500, Ryan Underwood wrote: > Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. > > I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. I don't remember ever using a twisted cable with a hard disk, only with floppy drive (and then only in the PC world). I think both control / data cables should just be straight through. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 4 16:57:22 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 14:57:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050404145106.I42328@shell.lmi.net> > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 16:21 -0500, Ryan Underwood wrote: > > Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. > > I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't remember ever using a twisted cable with a hard disk, only with > floppy drive (and then only in the PC world). I think both control / > data cables should just be straight through. IBM used a twisted cable with their hard disks - in order to avoid having to explain "Drive Select" jumpers to their [Computerland level] dealers. The hard drive cable twist is NOT the same twist as for floppies! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 4 17:00:21 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:00:21 -0700 Subject: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment) In-Reply-To: <4251A090.3060107@compsys.to> References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> <4251A090.3060107@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 4:16 PM -0400 4/4/05, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >I think that 49 lb. of DOC set for RT-11 is more than >enough - although having seen a grey wall for VMS >I am more than astounded - does anyone have the >weight for the VMS DOC set? It weighs to much. That's really all you need to know :^) Well how is this, my RT-11 doc set (V5.4 I believe) takes almost one shelf, and that's with three ring binders. For OpenVMS V6.0 through V7.3 it takes almost two shelves for the *complete* doc set (a base doc set takes about half a shelf). OTOH, the whole OpenVMS Doc Set is available on a CD, and that's the format I like these days. My question is how much dead space does a Grey Wall (V5) really take up, and how much of the Grey Walls that most people have seen are the OpenVMS Doc set, and how much is layered products? BTW, for the Grey Wall, the base doc set is 6 paperbacks that take up very little space, and I still keep them around as they're a lot of good info in a small amount of space. I don't even think I want to know how much space I have being taken up by VAX/VMS V4 through OpenVMS V7.3 doc's! I am convinced that more than half of the space that my DEC collection takes up is documentation. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 4 17:04:42 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:04:42 -0700 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <200504041504.43891.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 04 April 2005 14:21, Ryan Underwood wrote: > I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. Do not use a floppy cable with a twist - you must use straight through cables on both MFM and RLL drives for both control and data. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Apr 4 17:06:52 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:06:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <200504040445.UAA15072@floodgap.com> References: <200504040445.UAA15072@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20050404150348.Y42328@shell.lmi.net> > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered > OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. This is what is great about CCTALK. This information is useful for a lot of us, but is NOT "ON-TOPIC". (XP can run on a 386, but nobody would claim that IT is "on-topic".) From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 17:13:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:13:18 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net><1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050404145106.I42328@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001201c53963$8511a9c0$403cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Fred Cisin" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 4:57 PM >> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 16:21 -0500, Ryan Underwood wrote: >> > Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. >> > I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. > On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I don't remember ever using a twisted cable with a hard disk, only with >> floppy drive (and then only in the PC world). I think both control / >> data cables should just be straight through. > > IBM used a twisted cable with their hard disks - in order to avoid having > to explain "Drive Select" jumpers to their [Computerland level] dealers. > > The hard drive cable twist is NOT the same twist as for floppies! > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com If all you have is a twisted floppy cable use the "B-drive" connector (before the twist). Make sure the drive has the first drive selected. As stated IBM used a different twisted cable for hard drives and as with floppies both possible hard drives used the second drive select line. Unlike the floppy you can use a straight cable and use the first drive select, the floppy cable changes more than just drive select. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 17:18:04 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 17:18:04 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <001501c53964$2faa2600$403cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Ryan Underwood" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 4:21 PM > > OK, I posted about this a few weeks ago and now I have some more > information. > > The drives in question are a ST-225 20MB (615/4/17) that came out of an > XT (so would have been using a 8-bit controller) and a ST-238R 30MB > (615/4/26) of unknown origin. > > I don't have or even know what the original controllers were, the > machines were gutted/given away years ago by the owners. > > I have a 386 testbed which I'm using, and plan to laplink the files over > to another machine once they are accessible. > > The only card in the 386 is a VGA card. Turbo is off. > > I have the following controllers: > - WD1002A-27X 8-bit RLL > - Adaptec ACB-2370A S2 16-bit RLL/floppy > - WD1002SV-SR2 16-bit RLL/floppy > - Everex EV-346 16-bit MFM/floppy > > I also have two Miniscribe 8438 30MB RLL drives. However, they were > used with the 27X, which means the geometry is ambiguous depending on > how the jumpers were set when it was formatted. If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, the XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data off of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Apr 4 17:55:59 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 15:55:59 -0700 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <200504041504.43891.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <200504041504.43891.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Floppy cable won't work. If you want to use the cable cut the second connector off and make it a single connector straight through cable. Another problem I had with early MFM hard drives was they needed to be read with the same model of controller that formatted them. For the ST225 look for a DTC 5150 or a western digital 1002-WX1 HD controller. These were two of the most common HD controllers for XTs. I doubt that you can read them with any of the 16 bit cards. When I put away any XT drives that I wanted the data off I kept the cables and controller card with the drive. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Apr 4 18:02:49 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <20050404150348.Y42328@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Apr 4, 5 03:06:52 pm" Message-ID: <200504042302.PAA15800@floodgap.com> > > This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered > > OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. > > This is what is great about CCTALK. > This information is useful for a lot of us, > but is NOT "ON-TOPIC". > > (XP can run on a 386, > but nobody would claim that IT is "on-topic".) I'd argue this (naturally). Not the part about XP being off-topic, but the fact that you don't see people running XP on 386s, but you DO see people running 9.1 on 6100s, which are on-topic, and 7100s, which are (just barely, but truly) on topic. In fact, *I* run 9.1 on *my* 7100, which I use as a file server, to get its better cooperation with AFP over TCP. However, even though I argue that it *is* on topic, it's all a moot point anyway since it looks like I got fed wrong info in any case. Therefore, this can die now. ^^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. -- Tacitus --------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 17:41:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:41:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX COBOL media, and RRD40 difficulties In-Reply-To: <20050404161636.88646.qmail@halo.zianet.com> from "willisjo@zianet.com" at Apr 4, 5 10:16:36 am Message-ID: > On a side note, I have an RRD40 with RRD50 controller > for the uVAX II the COBOL is intended to be used on, > but I received it with no caddies. Sure wish DEC had > used the same caddies that everyone else in the industry > used, and not some proprietary junk. Anyone have leads > on caddies? If so, please reply off-list. Actually, they're not 'proprietary junk'. They are the same caddies as used onm the original Philips CD-ROM drive. They were also used on at least one Amiga CD-ROM drive. In many ways those caddies are the original standard. [I have _one_. I am keeping it as I have the Philips drive I just mentioned..] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 17:18:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:18:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Have You Protected Your Collection? In-Reply-To: <36553.64.169.63.74.1112595027.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 3, 5 11:10:27 pm Message-ID: > Even some more recent stuff is basically unobtanium. I've been trying Just try finding a PERQ 2T4.... (Almost impossible). FWIW I'd like a Lilith too, but I am not likely to ever find one... > to get an ETHZ Lilith, but the only person I've found who has one thinks > it's wirth its weight in gold. ^^^^^ Was that pun intentional? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 17:21:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:21:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> from "John Foust" at Apr 4, 5 07:19:31 am Message-ID: > My kids wanted to see a Commodore 64 in action. It took me a > while to find a combo to get from RCA to cable (F?), and sadly > it didn't work well on a TV with today's automatic tuning. > The sound was barely audible. Clearly I needed a cheaper TV. > I couldn't find (and didn't remember if I ever had) the Y/c / > audio cable for the C-64. Several times round here it's actually been quicker to find the connectors and solder up a new cable than to find the cable that I've misplaced... Yes I am disorganised... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 4 16:55:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:55:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP ThinkJet 2225P In-Reply-To: <003601c5379b$d3efe4e0$1ecd27a2@pavilion> from "Bentley" at Apr 2, 5 07:51:24 am Message-ID: > > I was wondering if anyone ever came up with the Pinout for this printer = > and if so if they could send it to me. Thanks > Unfortuantely my official Thinkjet service manual only covers the -A, -B, -C and -D versions. But I did figure out the pinout of the -P and made a cable to link it to a PC parallel port. I'll stick details of that cable at the end of this message. Incidentally, the battery pack can be rebuilt. You can unclip the top of the hosuing (the cells are stuck to both parts of the case with double-sided foam tape, so it's a bit of work to get it to separate without damage -- removeing the latck helps). Inside is a little charger PCB and 6 sub-C NiCds. There's a fuse between 2 of the rows of cells that you should desolder from the old sells and solder in the same place on the new ones. Apart from that there's no difficulty. -tony ------------------- PC printer port -> HP portable thinkjet cable PC TJ 1 ---- Stb-----> 1 2 -----D0------> 2 3 -----D1------> 3 4 -----D2------> 4 5 -----D3------> 5 6 -----D4------> 6 7 -----D5------> 7 8 -----D6------> 8 9 -----D7------> 9 10 <---Ack------ 10 11 <---Busy----- 11 12 <--PE--+ 24 -------+ 13 <---Sel------ 12 15 <---Err------ 13 16 ----Init----> 14 19 ----Gnd ----- 15 Pins 12 and 13 may be swapped - I can't get either of them to change state to check. From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 4 18:07:19 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:07:19 -0400 Subject: QIC-02 In-Reply-To: <20050404210317.69898.qmail@web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050404210317.69898.qmail@web31407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4251C8A7.6090003@atarimuseum.com> I dropped a box of those off at VCF East 2.0 last July, I don't know who picked them up, but there were about 2-3 of each type in that box. Curt silvercreekvalley wrote: >Hi all > >Looking for a QIC 02 drive for a Sun 3. This needs >to be either the > >Archive 5945S > >or > >Wangtek 5099EG11 > >Actually I just need the bare tape drive as I >have the MT02 board, shoebox, etc. > >Anything considered ... > >Thanks > >Ian. > > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Make Yahoo! your home page >http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.1 - Release Date: 4/1/2005 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 4 18:14:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 16:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <001501c53964$2faa2600$403cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, the > XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data off > of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used > originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. This doesn't make much sense. Can you please explain further? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Apr 4 18:35:06 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 18:35:06 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183006.0bb546f8@localhost> At 04:21 PM 4/4/2005 -0500, you wrote: >The drives in question are a ST-225 20MB (615/4/17) that came out of an >XT (so would have been using a 8-bit controller) and a ST-238R 30MB >(615/4/26) of unknown origin. Need RLL controller for the ST-238 and MFM for the ST-225. Sorry if that was already abundantly obvious. >I don't have or even know what the original controllers were, the >machines were gutted/given away years ago by the owners. > >I have a 386 testbed which I'm using, and plan to laplink the files over >to another machine once they are accessible. > >The only card in the 386 is a VGA card. Turbo is off. > >I have the following controllers: >- WD1002A-27X 8-bit RLL >- Adaptec ACB-2370A S2 16-bit RLL/floppy >- WD1002SV-SR2 16-bit RLL/floppy >- Everex EV-346 16-bit MFM/floppy I have docs for the WD cards. The 27X sounds (without looking) like an RLL controller. >I also have two Miniscribe 8438 30MB RLL drives. However, they were >used with the 27X, which means the geometry is ambiguous depending on >how the jumpers were set when it was formatted. > >Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. > >I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. That certainly will NOT work. The floppy cable is for floppy drives. Get a MFM data cable. >All of the drives spin up (the Miniscribes needed a little coaxing) and >sound "healthy" as they dance their little self-test jigs. Here's where >the trouble starts. >I tried the ST-238R with all three of the RLL controllers. With the 27X >and with no hard drive entered in the NVRAM setup, since the BIOS can't >be disabled, it runs the BIOS, which can't figure out what's going on >and returns a 1701 POST code. > >With both of the 16-bit RLL controllers, 615/4/26 entered in the NVRAM >and the controller BIOS disabled, the drive makes a repetitive seeking >sound like an ECC retry about twice a second, until eventually the BIOS >gives up and returns Drive C: failure. What this seems to indicate to >me is that the drive was formatted with different geometry, or the >tracks have drifted so bad it can't get its bearings. > >I also tried the Miniscribe drives with the 27X for kicks. Everything >sounds normal, including the long growl that I remember that >drive/controller combo doing during POST. But, a 1701 is returned, >which isn't normal - this drive *used* to work with this exact >controller. Wrong 34-pin cable. Also check the markings on the controllers and the drives very carefully for the pin 1 identification. Perhaps all the solder pads are round, except for one which is deliberately square, (that's pin 1) or maybe it's silk screened on the board/drive. >The only MFM controller I have is the Everex, so I tried the ST-225 with >that one, entering 615/4/17 in the NVRAM and disabling its BIOS. >Unfortunately, I get mostly the same behavior as with the ST-238R; >except that with this drive, the retry clicks are about a second or two >apart. Eventually the BIOS gives up anyway. > >I'm fresh out of ideas at this point. Maybe I have a bad cable? Do I >need to find the exact controller the drives were paired with - what >were the most common ones for each drive? Is the 386 the problem, too >fast for these cards? No, it's not too fast. Try the right cable and the Western Digital controllers. [Peace] It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by preparing for war. --John F. Kennedy --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Apr 4 18:43:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 18:43:20 -0500 Subject: Corrosion pains In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <20050404184320.24e7215c.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 11:57:58 +0930 "Parker, Kevin" wrote: > > Appreciate a little bit of advice from the list please. > > I started getting my shed full of gear in order on the weekend. > Following a renno of the kitchen the plan is to rebuild the kitchen > cupboards in the shed to provide additional storage. > > I noted when moving stuff around on the weekend that some corrosion > has set into DB plugs and PS2 connectors etc. Fortunately its on a > couple of AT machines of which I have about a zillion so its not a big > drama but I'm more concerned about the longer term effects on my more > precious assets. > > Storing stuff in the house would be great but that also equates to > divorce :-) > > How do people store their computer stuff medium to long term. > Ummm, I have a stack of 'Beige G3' Macintoshes next to the sofa in the living room. There's a hefty 'portable' Sparc system in a VME case with handle (which is what technically classifies it as 'portable') wedged in front of the TV's cart, blocking access to the VHS tapes and what-not. There's a big pile of pizzabox Suns blocking easy access to the workbench across the room from here. It's not *that* hard to get around in this room (the 'official' room that I'm allowed to have anything I like it) as long as you walk sideways. The spare bedroom has stuff like the Kaypro portables, the big mass of ColorComputer machines and software and whatnot, and down underneath a bunch of that, the SparcServer 1000, with equally massive Storage Array, and the Atwater-Kent radio sit. Important stuff like the Sym-1 and the Intel Bubble Memory Development Kit (an ISA card evaluation board) are safely nestled on a shelf in the original boxes. From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Apr 4 18:38:32 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 18:38:32 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <001501c53964$2faa2600$403cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> At 05:18 PM 4/4/2005 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Ryan Underwood" >Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 4:21 PM > > >> >>OK, I posted about this a few weeks ago and now I have some more >>information. >> >>The drives in question are a ST-225 20MB (615/4/17) that came out of an >>XT (so would have been using a 8-bit controller) and a ST-238R 30MB >>(615/4/26) of unknown origin. >> >>I don't have or even know what the original controllers were, the >>machines were gutted/given away years ago by the owners. >> >>I have a 386 testbed which I'm using, and plan to laplink the files over >>to another machine once they are accessible. >> >>The only card in the 386 is a VGA card. Turbo is off. >> >>I have the following controllers: >>- WD1002A-27X 8-bit RLL >>- Adaptec ACB-2370A S2 16-bit RLL/floppy >>- WD1002SV-SR2 16-bit RLL/floppy >>- Everex EV-346 16-bit MFM/floppy >> >>I also have two Miniscribe 8438 30MB RLL drives. However, they were >>used with the 27X, which means the geometry is ambiguous depending on >>how the jumpers were set when it was formatted. > > >If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, the >XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data off >of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used >originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. I have been able to read many old MFM drives and the occasional RLL drive. When the original controller was jumpered to lie about head or cylinder count or other facts of drive geometry, I have be largely unable to read those. This was several years ago. >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com [Government]I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --Will Rogers --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Apr 4 18:36:03 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 18:36:03 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <20050404145106.I42328@shell.lmi.net> References: <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183527.0b4387c8@localhost> At 02:57 PM 4/4/2005 -0700, you wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 16:21 -0500, Ryan Underwood wrote: > > > Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. > > > I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. >On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I don't remember ever using a twisted cable with a hard disk, only with > > floppy drive (and then only in the PC world). I think both control / > > data cables should just be straight through. > >IBM used a twisted cable with their hard disks - in order to avoid having >to explain "Drive Select" jumpers to their [Computerland level] dealers. > >The hard drive cable twist is NOT the same twist as for floppies! Amen brother! Get a straight-thru cable and jumper the drive for DS0 [Computing] "Unix has been feverishly evolving for over 20 years, sort of like bacteria in a cesspool, only less attractive." --Unix for Dummies --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 19:00:04 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:00:04 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: Message-ID: <002e01c53972$6fc8c210$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 6:14 PM > On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, >> the >> XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data >> off >> of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used >> originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. > > This doesn't make much sense. Can you please explain further? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] With Vintage as a domain name you should be familiar with the fact that standards develop slowly. Hard drive interfaces for the PC "standardized" with the AT, before that people did what ever they wanted. Sometimes one controller would read a disk from a different type of controller but it was just luck. Most hard disk controllers formatted to 17 sectors of 512 bytes per track but that doesn't say much about how it is formatted at the hardware level (bit for bit). Another point is that before the AT the drive geometry was normally kept on the drive and different controllers stored the information differently. With the PC many people hooked up drives before the XT came out but once IBM came out with the AT they had chosen a "standard" hard drive controller everyone worked to emulate until RLL controllers came out. Even controllers like the Everex controllers that did track buffering to allow 1:1 interleave were still "compatible" with the AT formatting. If you have an MFM drive used on an AT or better you have a good chance of reading it on any AT or better system with most any controller. RLL or 8 bit based systems have no such "standard". Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 19:04:24 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:04:24 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> Message-ID: <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Tom Peters" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 6:38 PM >>If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, the >>XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data off >>of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used >>originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. > > I have been able to read many old MFM drives and the occasional RLL drive. > When the original controller was jumpered to lie about head or cylinder > count or other facts of drive geometry, I have be largely unable to read > those. This was several years ago. > > > >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com I would be willing to bet you are talking about 16 bit controllers, most 16 bit controllers are interchangeable. Very few 8 bit controllers are interchangeable. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Apr 4 19:01:10 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 19:01:10 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: References: <001501c53964$2faa2600$403cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050404185821.0b428d50@localhost> At 04:14 PM 4/4/2005 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, the > > XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data off > > of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used > > originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. > >This doesn't make much sense. Can you please explain further? I agree. I've had problems with controllers that can be jumpered to lie about drive geometry being mismatched with the geometry used to format the drive in the first place, but WD MFM controllers of the same era could usually be counted on to read any given MFM drive within their specs, and the RLL controllers likewise (with RLL drives). Else how did I replace drives, or controllers, sometimes separately, on many a service call? "Not at all tricky. We do this sort of stuff every day before breakfast. Then I fly to work on my winged pig, Swilma." --David Chase --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Mon Apr 4 19:12:10 2005 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:12:10 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <200504042339.j34NcQvs009263@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504042339.j34NcQvs009263@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050405001210.GB28565@dbz.icequake.net> Replying to a bundle of posts: > IBM used a twisted cable with their hard disks - in order to avoid having > to explain "Drive Select" jumpers to their [Computerland level] dealers. > > The hard drive cable twist is NOT the same twist as for floppies! Oops. See, I saw a mention of a twisted cable in the Miniscribe manual which came from Hard Drives International, so I thought I was okay there. Anyway, I switched to a straight through connection. I tried the Miniscribe drives with the 27X and the ST-238R with both the 27X and the WD1002SV-SR2. With the 27X I get no POST/BIOS complaints, but the system tries to go to ROM BASIC, so I guess it is ignoring the connected drive. With the WD1002SV with BIOS disabled and 615/4/26 entered, then I just get Drive C: error from the BIOS. > If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, the > XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data off > of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used > originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. Is that true for MFM drives too? I know RLL setups were picky about controller/drive compatibility but I didn't think MFM would be also. > Another problem I had with early MFM hard drives was they needed to be > read with the same model of controller that formatted them. ... I guess so. > For the ST225 look for a DTC 5150 or a western digital 1002-WX1 HD > controller. These were two of the most common HD controllers for XTs. Thanks. I'll ask the owners if these models ring any bells. > I doubt that you can read them with any of the 16 bit cards. Are drives formatted with 16 bit cards generally compatible with each other? > When I put away any XT drives that I wanted the data off I kept the > cables and controller card with the drive. Yup. I certainly wish that were the case here. > I have docs for the WD cards. The 27X sounds (without looking) like an RLL > controller. It is. > Wrong 34-pin cable. Also check the markings on the controllers and the > drives very carefully for the pin 1 identification. Perhaps all the solder > pads are round, except for one which is deliberately square, (that's pin 1) > or maybe it's silk screened on the board/drive. It is actually silk screened on all these boards. No problems there. -- Ryan Underwood, From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 4 19:23:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 00:23:44 +0000 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <002e01c53972$6fc8c210$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <002e01c53972$6fc8c210$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <1112660624.18074.78.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 19:00 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 6:14 PM > > On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > >> If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, > >> the > >> XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data > >> off > >> of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used > >> originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even chipset. > > > > This doesn't make much sense. Can you please explain further? > > > > With Vintage as a domain name you should be familiar with the fact that > standards develop slowly. > > Hard drive interfaces for the PC "standardized" with the AT, before that > people did what ever they wanted. Sometimes one controller would read a > disk from a different type of controller but it was just luck. I was confused by the statement too. Are you saying that the same *model* of controller won't necessarily work (due to different tolerances in components say) - or just that different controllers that happen to use a few common chips won't work? The former would be a little alarming - the latter makes much more sense and would seem like a given. (Maybe that's where Sellam was getting confused?) cheers Jules From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 4 19:23:35 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 17:23:35 -0700 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery Message-ID: <4251DA87.D48632B2@rain.org> Well, I read through the digest replies and don't agree with all of them ... so :): Re: the floppy cable. The twist on a HD cable is closer to the edge than the floppy cable. It is obvious if you hold the two of them together which is which. The floppy twist starts at pin 10 while the HD twist starts about pin 6 or so (don't have one in front of me.) A floppy cable will work okay but *don't* use the end with the twist! Make sure the data cable is connected to the correct connector if the card supports two drives (IIRC one 40 pin connector and two 20 pin connectors.) A terminator is also required at the last drive in the chain. Assuming you are using just one drive, not having the terminator installed would probably cause the drive not to work properly. If you are using a HD that originally had a twist, the jumper select will most likely be set to drive 1. Using a straight cable will cause the drive to appear as drive D instead of C ... I don't remember what problems that will cause. So if using a straight cable, make sure the drive select is at 0 (of 0-3) or 1 (of 1-4). If you are using an 8-bit card with the bios enabled, make sure in the 386 setup that there is NO HD installed (the bios will take care of it.) If you have the bios disabled, then go ahead and set the 386 HD setup to Type 2 or 4? (can't remember, 615 cyl, 4 heads, 17 sectors) but you *will* have to do a low level format to get the drive to work. If you are trying to save files on the HD AND it was installed with an 8-bit controller, you don't have any choices but to use the 8-bit card bios to access the data AND an identical controller to the one that was used to low level format the drive. Fred can probably comment on whether it has to be the same type of controller, or the same controller for this to work. If you have any idea of what the original machine it came out of was, that would help :). Finally, the clicking you hear on the drive is not a good sign. I would power up the drive with no cables connected (except of course the power cable) and if the clicking still continues, the drive is probably bad. If it is important enough, you could also send the drive to a data recovery service and leave it to them to deal with it. Marvin P.S. - I think this is an example where top posting makes everything a lot easier to follow :)! > OK, I posted about this a few weeks ago and now I have some more > information. > > The drives in question are a ST-225 20MB (615/4/17) that came out of an > XT (so would have been using a 8-bit controller) and a ST-238R 30MB > (615/4/26) of unknown origin. > > I don't have or even know what the original controllers were, the > machines were gutted/given away years ago by the owners. > > I have a 386 testbed which I'm using, and plan to laplink the files over > to another machine once they are accessible. > > The only card in the 386 is a VGA card. Turbo is off. > > I have the following controllers: > - WD1002A-27X 8-bit RLL > - Adaptec ACB-2370A S2 16-bit RLL/floppy > - WD1002SV-SR2 16-bit RLL/floppy > - Everex EV-346 16-bit MFM/floppy > > I also have two Miniscribe 8438 30MB RLL drives. However, they were > used with the 27X, which means the geometry is ambiguous depending on > how the jumpers were set when it was formatted. > > Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. > > I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. > All of the drives spin up (the Miniscribes needed a little coaxing) and > sound "healthy" as they dance their little self-test jigs. Here's where > the trouble starts. > > I tried the ST-238R with all three of the RLL controllers. With the 27X > and with no hard drive entered in the NVRAM setup, since the BIOS can't > be disabled, it runs the BIOS, which can't figure out what's going on > and returns a 1701 POST code. > > With both of the 16-bit RLL controllers, 615/4/26 entered in the NVRAM > and the controller BIOS disabled, the drive makes a repetitive seeking > sound like an ECC retry about twice a second, until eventually the BIOS > gives up and returns Drive C: failure. What this seems to indicate to > me is that the drive was formatted with different geometry, or the > tracks have drifted so bad it can't get its bearings. > > I also tried the Miniscribe drives with the 27X for kicks. Everything > sounds normal, including the long growl that I remember that > drive/controller combo doing during POST. But, a 1701 is returned, > which isn't normal - this drive *used* to work with this exact > controller. > > The only MFM controller I have is the Everex, so I tried the ST-225 with > that one, entering 615/4/17 in the NVRAM and disabling its BIOS. > Unfortunately, I get mostly the same behavior as with the ST-238R; > except that with this drive, the retry clicks are about a second or two > apart. Eventually the BIOS gives up anyway. > > I'm fresh out of ideas at this point. Maybe I have a bad cable? Do I > need to find the exact controller the drives were paired with - what > were the most common ones for each drive? Is the 386 the problem, too > fast for these cards? > > -- > Ryan Underwood, > From Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com Mon Apr 4 19:37:09 2005 From: Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com (Alwrcker82 at wmconnect.com) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:37:09 EDT Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery Message-ID: Ryan, the twist on the harddrive cable is on the other side of the cable. They are differance. Al From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 19:47:07 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:47:07 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <002e01c53972$6fc8c210$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <1112660624.18074.78.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001001c53979$01d29090$0192d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Jules Richardson" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 7:23 PM > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 19:00 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 6:14 PM >> > On Mon, 4 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> > >> >> If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your time, >> >> the >> >> XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never read the data >> >> off >> >> of the drives without using controllers indentical with ones used >> >> originally. It is not good enough to use the same brand or even >> >> chipset. >> > >> > This doesn't make much sense. Can you please explain further? >> > >> >> With Vintage as a domain name you should be familiar with the fact that >> standards develop slowly. >> >> Hard drive interfaces for the PC "standardized" with the AT, before that >> people did what ever they wanted. Sometimes one controller would read a >> disk from a different type of controller but it was just luck. > > I was confused by the statement too. Are you saying that the same > *model* of controller won't necessarily work (due to different > tolerances in components say) - or just that different controllers that > happen to use a few common chips won't work? > > The former would be a little alarming - the latter makes much more sense > and would seem like a given. (Maybe that's where Sellam was getting > confused?) > > > cheers > > Jules The incompatibilities are not a tolerance problem, when the same chipset is used the BIOS can be different and not be compatible. But I've always found that the same model controllers were interchangeable with no problems. A few times I've seen different PC controllers from the same manufacturer (i.e. WD or whatever) work from one model to another but not be able to boot without a low-level formatting (booting from a floppy allows access). Other times no compatibility at all and must be low-level formatted to do anything. As was pointed out if you know the drives were formatted on a 8 bit controller just set the BIOS to no hard drive and don't even try the 16 bit controllers, they would just be a waste of time. Your best bet would be to try different 8 bit cards and boot to a floppy then do a "dir c:", repeat until you've tried all cards. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Apr 4 19:58:41 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 20:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <1112660624.18074.78.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <002e01c53972$6fc8c210$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <1112660624.18074.78.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > I was confused by the statement too. Are you saying that the same > *model* of controller won't necessarily work (due to different > tolerances in components say) - or just that different controllers that > happen to use a few common chips won't work? From my recollections of working on XT systems in the last 80s, when swapping MFM controllers, you had to make sure they used the same chipset. For instance, a drive formatted by a WD controller would probably NOT be readable by a DTC controller. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Apr 4 19:59:28 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:59:28 -0400 Subject: Looking for VAX COBOL media In-Reply-To: <42505EAA.7060701@gbronline.com> References: <200504031453.30945.pat@computer-refuge.org> <42505EAA.7060701@gbronline.com> Message-ID: <4251E2F0.2030704@splab.cas.neu.edu> I found Compaq Cobol for VMS on one of my SPL CD sets, I think (the stuff is at work) it was from around 2000, it is COBOL 5.6. I probably have 5.4 or earlier, as my SPL stuff covers a few years, pretty much from mid 90s to 2000. Joe Heck Glen Goodwin wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> John Willis declared on Sunday 03 April 2005 02:04 pm: >> >>> I am looking for VAX COBOL media. TK50 would be >>> ideal, But any version would work, as would ISO >>> images or an actual CD. Anybody have any leads? >> >> >> >> I'm not sure what version you need, but VAX COBOL is on the hobbyist >> OpenVMS CD distribution, or at least the one I've got (V7.2). >> >> Pat > > > Pat is correct -- it's on the OpenVMS CD, not the ConDist. > > Glen > 0/0 > From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Apr 4 21:23:49 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:23:49 -0400 Subject: AppleTalk & CAP Message-ID: <1112667829.13949.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> I thought I'd throw a note out here before I give up for the evening.... (And hope there's an appropriate answer waiting for me in the morning. :-) ) Has anyone done anything w/ CAP and Apple IIgs's lately, and have any good guesses why files created on the Unix "share" (from the GS of course) appear to loose their filetypes? The .finderinfo, and .resource directories are there, and clean, but CAP appears to be storing the wrong data in .finderinfo. Does this happen to ring any bells w/ anyone? Yes, I know CAP is moldy, old, and from what I can tell unsupported. I had to port the raw network layer to a modern version of Linux. But it appears to be working but for the above problem. Why CAP? Cause I can't get my Fastpath4 bridge to talk anything but AppleTalk Phase 1, and Linux/NetAtalk only do Phase 2. (Apparently the FP4 doesn't calculate checksums correctly either, btw) (And no, I don't want to bring up a Solaris box. ) Thanks, David PS: At least the IIgs is on-topic. :-) From lgwalker at mts.net Mon Apr 4 23:57:57 2005 From: lgwalker at mts.net (lgwalker at mts.net) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 21:57:57 -0700 Subject: HP Jounals 1984 on epay Message-ID: <4251B865.28563.3C96880@localhost> Don't know whether this is now verbotten on the list, but I have put up some old HP Journal on epay. http://tinyurl.com/3u7gn I need bucks, so I might also be putting up my early Scientific American computer issues as well. LawrenceShould an e-mail be returned please resend to the secondary address. Primary - lgwalker at mts.net Secondary - bigwalk_ca at yahoo.ca My Blogs "Good News Clips" http://parklandclips.blogspot.com "The View From Out Here" http://parkland_man.blogspot.com From john at guntersville.net Mon Apr 4 22:11:14 2005 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:11:14 -0500 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488interface) References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <425201D2.AFC2015E@guntersville.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > In message <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > snip > > Before anyone asks, I'm trying to hack together something similar to the > "hobby spot welder" on . I've got the > computer-grade capacitors (five rather large Cornell Dubilier DCMX series snip Why not just go to http://www.harborfreight.com and get a real portable spot welder for $199 (110V 1.5KVA) or $219 (220V 2.5KVA). Just substitute your own home made adapters/electrodes for special setups. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 22:51:21 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 22:51:21 -0500 Subject: Repairing plastic pieces was Re: Corrosion pains References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local><6.2.1.2.2.20050404071337.04b89e80@mail> Message-ID: <000a01c53992$be92b020$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "vrs" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 12:42 PM >> On Apr 4, 2005 7:19 AM, John Foust wrote: >> > I was hunting for odd bits in my piles the other night and was >> > shocked at the decay of several plastic parts. The ends of a >> > set of GPIB cables for an old CBM disk drive were covered in a >> > white powder coating - not mold, but slow decay of the plastic. >> >> I have been seeing the same thing with my C= GPIB cables (as well as >> certain tool handles from the same era). AFAIK, it's inevitable with >> that sort of plastic. > > My RK05F has a white powdery junk all over the inside, and all the plastic > bits have hardened (some have shattered). Is this the same problem? I > figured something had caused all the plasticizer to boil out or something. > > Vince PC-7 is a good replacement for damaged plastics available in most hardware stores. It is an epoxy in putty form, it can be drilled, machined, sanded, formed, etc. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Apr 4 23:00:22 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:00:22 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 4 Apr 2005 19:04:24 -0500 "Randy McLaughlin" wrote: > From: "Tom Peters" > Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 6:38 PM > > >>If you are trying to recover files you are probably wasting your > >time, the >XT controllers used unique formatting and you will never > >read the data off >of the drives without using controllers indentical > >with ones used >originally. It is not good enough to use the same > >brand or even chipset. > > > > I have been able to read many old MFM drives and the occasional RLL > > drive. When the original controller was jumpered to lie about head > > or cylinder count or other facts of drive geometry, I have be > > largely unable to read those. This was several years ago. > > > > > > > >>Randy > >>www.s100-manuals.com > > I would be willing to bet you are talking about 16 bit controllers, > most 16 bit controllers are interchangeable. Very few 8 bit > controllers are interchangeable. > > I thought it would be worth adding, to clarify this for some people who aren't familiar with the tech involved, some of the background regarding AT versus XT HD controllers. The IBM PC-AT and AT clones have direct BIOS support for the hard disk and controller built into the motherboard. XT and XT-clone motherboards have no direct built-in support for hard drives. The Hard Drive BIOS support is included as a 'BIOS extension' on a ROM on the 8-bit controller card. Said BIOS extension code can and is widely varied from controller to controller. (For further background: the 'BIOS extension' is a feature in the PC BIOS whereas the built-in BIOS on the motherboard scans a certain address space looking for a specific signature that indicates a plug-in card on the I/O channel has inserted BIOS extension ROM at that address, then loads it as part of the BIOS before proceeding to boot.) I may not be completely accurate in the above. Anybody, please add to or correct me as appropriate. -Scott From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 4 23:39:19 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:39:19 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net><5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost><003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 11:00 PM > I thought it would be worth adding, to clarify this for some people who > aren't familiar with the tech involved, some of the background regarding > AT versus XT HD controllers. The IBM PC-AT and AT clones have direct > BIOS support for the hard disk and controller built into the > motherboard. XT and XT-clone motherboards have no direct built-in > support for hard drives. The Hard Drive BIOS support is included as a > 'BIOS extension' on a ROM on the 8-bit controller card. Said BIOS > extension code can and is widely varied from controller to controller. > > (For further background: the 'BIOS extension' is a feature in the PC > BIOS whereas the built-in BIOS on the motherboard scans a certain > address space looking for a specific signature that indicates a plug-in > card on the I/O channel has inserted BIOS extension ROM at that address, > then loads it as part of the BIOS before proceeding to boot.) > > I may not be completely accurate in the above. Anybody, please add to > or correct me as appropriate. > > -Scott Exactly, any variation in hardware or firmware causes compatibility problems, with an AT 99% of that disappears. The problem re-emerged on the AT once on board BIOS's and/or different hardware was used such as RLL. On 8 bit PC's trying to recover data when a controller dies is much more of an issue than with 16 bit systems. I am not trying to say it can't be done but it is a problem which is proven by the fact that I have seen lots of ideas flying around but have yet to hear that any of the data has been recovered. If it was me and I knew there was info I absolutely had to have I might try a 16 bit controller and see if I could physically read any sectors, if so an assembly language routine could be written to transfer all readable sectors to a file on a second hard drive. I would bet money that it wouldn't work since by definition the hardware is different. Trying it with the wrong 8 bit controller would be even harder. The best chance of recovery is as said in a previous post to keep trying different 8 bit controllers and booting with a floppy. The things working against you: If it was from a specialty computer like a Tandy they used a different incompatible set of controllers. Some 8 bit computers had their own hard disk BIOS's on the system board and required disabling the controllers BIOS in that case you must find the same type computer and the same type controller. Finding the right controller. Does the controller require a real 8 bit machine, yes not all 8 bit controllers even worked in 16 bit computers. Is the drive bad. Has the drive formatting been messed up. Is the drive terminated properly. Is the drive jumpered properly. To work everything has to work, to fail only one thing has to fail. Can anyone guess why they charge so much for data recovery? On IDE all of the truly low level stuff is 100% hidden so the only compatibility problems with IDE tended to be drive geometry (early problems when the same drive could be addressed by different geometries) . Good luck, Randy www.s100-manuals.com From javickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Apr 5 00:01:56 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 06:01:56 +0100 Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> A friend of mine has a problem with Electrolytic caps on his motherboard having gone "pop" & deposited their contents on some contacts... Although this is a PeeCee (spit) that's affected, I thought I'd ask the assembled knowledgeable types here, as it's also a problem which COULD affect our Olde Worlde computers quite easily... Quote "Does anyone know how best to remove dried capacitor electrolyte from a surface? I have tried a number of solvents, including Ultrsolve and Super Servisol, but the stuff seems is set hard. A couple of capacitors leaked on a motherboard and have dripped into one of the PCI slots. They are insulating some of the pins, so the slot cannot be used, but I need the slot. The capacitors were easily replaced (just pennies and half an hour in front of the TV) but I'm really not sure how to clean those PCI slot contacts. The electrolyte dries to a brown varnish-like film. There seem to be a bunch of these exploded capacitors coming in from PCs manufactured around 2002 (I reckon the worldwide supply of dodgy caps from the 1999/2000 production were put in storage for a few years, then bought up by Packard Bell and friends)." Endquote Thanks in advance, all. Cheers, Ade. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 01:16:21 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:16:21 +0800 Subject: VAX COBOL media, and RRD40 difficulties In-Reply-To: <012601c5394e$32f3adb0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <20050404161636.88646.qmail@halo.zianet.com> <012601c5394e$32f3adb0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005 3:40 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I'm pretty sure the KRQ50+RRD40 combo is supported (always > assuming you have not bodged a SCSI-RRD40 to work there :-)). Well, thanks for the encouragement... :-} In fact, I'm planning to "bodge" a SCS-RRD40 to work with the KRQ50... I figured, all I need is just a cable from the KRQ50 to the CDROM's native LMS interface. Any tips? /wai-sun From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 5 01:27:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 01:27:54 -0500 Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <20050404150348.Y42328@shell.lmi.net> References: <200504040445.UAA15072@floodgap.com> <20050404150348.Y42328@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42522FEA.4000307@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > (XP can run on a 386, > but nobody would claim that IT is "on-topic".) Actually, you can't -- XP contains Pentium-specific instructions that lock up 486s and earlier. (ducking) I *do* run FreeBSD on my 386 w/8MB of RAM, however. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 5 01:42:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2005 23:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Trade for ceramic 6502 Message-ID: I need a ceramic 6502 for an upcoming project. Does anyone have one for sale or trade? Contact directly, please ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Apr 5 02:32:50 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:32:50 -0700 Subject: TU56/TC11 restoration - VARIAC question References: <000701c52ced$ca1f3000$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000b01c539b1$ac13caa0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Sorry, another case of the elusive disappearing link. C and H can be had at: www.candhsales.com or 1-800-325-9465. I'll blame it on a prostate condition.... Regards, Steven C. > I've found C and H surplus here in California to be an excellent source for > all kinds of semi-exotic parts ( like capacitors ) for old Tek and HP test > equipment, old computers, Tesla Coils and Ham Radio gear. Their link is > below and they have a great catalog they'll send you for free. If you call > them they will do there best to help you and not just try to get you off the > phone. They are located in Pasadena and will ship to just about anywhere ( > except the International Space Station ). > > Best regards, and good luck, Steven C. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 5 02:58:45 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 00:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> Message-ID: <32891.64.169.63.74.1112687925.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Adrian wrote: > A friend of mine has a problem with Electrolytic caps on his motherboard > having gone "pop" & deposited their contents on some contacts... [...] > Does anyone know how best to remove dried capacitor electrolyte from a > surface? I don't know, but my solution to this has been to replace the affected motherboards. Those capacitors really are necessary for the board to be reliable, as they are part of the power supply for the internal CPU operating voltage. If some of them went bad, you can be pretty sure that the rest will too, so they all need to be replaced. The local surplus places have old motherboards for about $20; the cost of a set of new capacitors is more than that. When I factor in my time to replace them, it would even be cost-effective to buy a brand new motherboard. This normally happens to motherboards that were made using cheap Taiwanese electrolytic capacitors. Someone stole the electrolyte formula from one of the Japanese capacitor manufacturers, but they apparently missed some ingredients that were essential to stabilize it, or perhaps they left those out deliberately to make the stuff cheaper. The result is that multiple Taiwanese capacitor vendors were making defective capacitors for quite a long time. I'll note that I have never seen this problem with any of my Asus or Tyan motherboards, only with cheap crap like ECS which other people buy then expect me to support. Eric From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 03:03:53 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:03:53 +0800 Subject: New book In-Reply-To: References: <200503301148.MAA04400@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Apr 3, 2005 3:49 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > http://www.vintage.org/library.php Just want to voice out a thanks for putting this up. Fantastic resource for wanabees collectors (like me) to flesh out our fledgling classiccmp library.. /wai-sun From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 06:22:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:22:21 +0000 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488interface) In-Reply-To: <425201D2.AFC2015E@guntersville.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <425201D2.AFC2015E@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <1112700141.854.2.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 22:11 -0500, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > Why not just go to http://www.harborfreight.com and get a real portable > spot welder for $199 (110V 1.5KVA) or $219 (220V 2.5KVA). Just > substitute your own home made adapters/electrodes for special setups. I imagine that Phil's enjoying trying to do this himself - plus I can't see anywhere in that website where it says that they'll ship across the pond! :-) From mapleleafman at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 06:31:10 2005 From: mapleleafman at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 07:31:10 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: have that kind of storage space available to me again. > > >Somebody just gave me my first G3. Very good looking machine. > >Even has that prominent DEC chip (21154 PCI) to look at. Can't wait > >to load something on it. > > Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. > > -chris > > > You can download 9.1 now from the Apple site and boot from that to install the OS. G3s are still great, even with OS X (need lots of ram), especially since all the IDE stuff will work in them and OS X integrates well with a windows network. Give me a shout if you need any help with the G3 (original poster was Chris I think) BM From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 06:32:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:32:16 +0000 Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <32891.64.169.63.74.1112687925.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> <32891.64.169.63.74.1112687925.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <1112700736.873.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 00:58 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Adrian wrote: > > A friend of mine has a problem with Electrolytic caps on his motherboard > > having gone "pop" & deposited their contents on some contacts... > [...] > > Does anyone know how best to remove dried capacitor electrolyte from a > > surface? > > I don't know, but my solution to this has been to replace the affected > motherboards. If the motherboard is "valuable" in some way (containing the right slot layout for the user, or having a decent BIOS, or onboard SCSI or something) then one option might just be to replace the damaged PCI slot. I've never tried this, but it can't be much harder than snipping a dead IC from a board, cleaning everything up, and replacing. Either buy a new PCI socket from a component place, or try removing one from a dead motherboard. I've never tried the latter (only with ISA sockets) - but a blowtorch on the underside of the donor board might do the trick without damaging the PCI slot.... > I'll note that I have never seen this problem with any of my Asus or > Tyan motherboards FWIW I've seen it on a couple of dual-CPU Asus boards before now (but have seen other Asus boards from the same era that have been fine). cheers Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Apr 5 06:41:16 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 12:41:16 +0100 Subject: OT: Sheet metal and UNF screws (was Re: PET and the IEEE-488interface) In-Reply-To: <1112700141.854.2.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <8757ff534d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <1112231392.11253.43.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050331171526.007a2980@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050331202354.00ab3460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <503ee7544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <425201D2.AFC2015E@guntersville.net> <1112700141.854.2.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4ed2d0564d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1112700141.854.2.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 22:11 -0500, John C. Ellingboe wrote: > > Why not just go to http://www.harborfreight.com and get a real portable > > spot welder for $199 (110V 1.5KVA) or $219 (220V 2.5KVA). Just > > substitute your own home made adapters/electrodes for special setups. > > I imagine that Phil's enjoying trying to do this himself - plus I can't > see anywhere in that website where it says that they'll ship across the > pond! :-) Plus those things seem to be far too powerful. 2.5KVA? That sounds like it's designed for patching up damaged car bodywork and other similar tasks. Running that much power through a battery tab will likely blast it to smithereens. I still haven't found anywhere that'll sell me a sheet (or a few offcuts) of 0.003" thick Ni200 or Ni201 nickel sheet besides McMaster-Carr, and I don't think they ship across the pond anyway :-/ Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI (A)bort (R)etry (W)ire up to a Tesla Coil and watch it glow like a lightning bug. From river at zip.com.au Tue Apr 5 06:56:34 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:56:34 +1000 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! Message-ID: <031701c539d6$848943a0$392e083d@river> Hi, Found the problem with the SC/MP. I don't have the SC/MP programming manual but have figured out there was a difference of opinion between me and TASM on a few instructions. I now understand all the SC/MP instructions and TASM's expectations. Anyway, it's advanced from the prototype breadboard stage and it's now a permanent system - all soldered and complete. For those that are interested, it's a SC/MP II (ISPA/600D) running at 2.048Mhz. It's got 2 x 4K (2732) EPROM, 2 x 2K (6116) RAM, 1 x 8251 USART and 1 x 8255 PPI. I've got the comms and PPI working a treat and now I've got to embark on the fun task of creating a debug/monitor for it. Does anyone else here build old stuff like this? Or do you build your own debug and monitor software? Any experimenters/builders here? river From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 07:35:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:35:05 -0400 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! Message-ID: <0IEH00LBS4A58AX9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! > From: "river" > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:56:34 +1000 > To: >For those that are interested, it's a SC/MP II (ISPA/600D) running at 2.048Mhz. >It's got 2 x 4K (2732) EPROM, 2 x 2K (6116) RAM, 1 x 8251 USART and >1 x 8255 PPI. I've got the comms and PPI working a treat and now I've got to >embark on the fun task of creating a debug/monitor for it. Sounds like one I"ve built. Actually I have the original sc/mp isp8a/500 (the Pmos part) and the later Nibble basic (8072) configured with ram and IO. >Does anyone else here build old stuff like this? Or do you build your own debug >and monitor software? Any experimenters/builders here? I doubt your alone, theres at least two of us. ;) Allison From lproven at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 08:00:35 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:00:35 +0100 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af050405060014d35cb8@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 5, 2005 12:31 PM, Brian Mahoney wrote: > have that kind of storage space available to me again. > > > > >Somebody just gave me my first G3. Very good looking machine. > > >Even has that prominent DEC chip (21154 PCI) to look at. Can't wait > > >to load something on it. > > > > Which model? I can check to see if I have the Apple restore CD for it. > > > > -chris > > > > > > > You can download 9.1 now from the Apple site and boot from that to > install the OS. G3s are still great, even with OS X (need lots of > ram), especially since all the IDE stuff will work in them and OS X > integrates well with a windows network. Give me a shout if you need > any help with the G3 (original poster was Chris I think) Oh *no*! The original thread is still running, about 3 messages down from this one, but already this *FALSE INFORMATION* is being promulgated around? You can indeed download 9.1, as you have been able to since the day it was released, but it is an *PATCH ONLY*. It is NOT a complete bootable OS in its own right. You need a copy of MacOS 9.0 to upgrade. Please don't spread the info that 9.x is now free around any further - it is *not true.* -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 5 07:59:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:59:18 -0400 Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> References: <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050405085918.00b0c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I would try Lime-Away. I haven't tried it for caps but it works good on cleaning up the residue from NiCad batteries and I think the cap residue is a similar material. Joe At 06:01 AM 4/5/05 +0100, you wrote: >A friend of mine has a problem with Electrolytic caps on his motherboard >having gone "pop" & deposited their contents on some contacts... > >Although this is a PeeCee (spit) that's affected, I thought I'd ask the >assembled knowledgeable types here, as it's also a problem which COULD >affect our Olde Worlde computers quite easily... > > >Quote > >"Does anyone know how best to remove dried capacitor electrolyte from a >surface? I have tried a number of solvents, including Ultrsolve and Super >Servisol, but the stuff seems is set hard. > >A couple of capacitors leaked on a motherboard and have dripped into one of >the PCI slots. They are insulating some of the pins, so the slot cannot be >used, but I need the slot. The capacitors were easily replaced (just >pennies and half an hour in front of the TV) but I'm really not sure how to >clean those PCI slot contacts. > >The electrolyte dries to a brown varnish-like film. There seem to be a >bunch of these exploded capacitors coming in from PCs manufactured around >2002 (I reckon the worldwide supply of dodgy caps from the 1999/2000 >production were put in storage for a few years, then bought up by Packard >Bell and friends)." > >Endquote > >Thanks in advance, all. > > >Cheers, >Ade. > > > From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 08:32:38 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 14:32:38 +0100 Subject: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment) In-Reply-To: References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> Message-ID: <26c11a640504050632539432f7@mail.gmail.com> I was wondering about that myself, when I read this bit ;) >then had lunch and flew back to Santa Monica, well over a hundred pounds heavier... Dan From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 10:20:41 2005 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:20:41 -0400 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <575131af050405060014d35cb8@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af050405060014d35cb8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e050405082075bd76fd@mail.gmail.com> Ditto that information. The size of the 9.1 download is about 90MB. IIRC the install directory for MacOS 9 is at least 150MB, and that's without MacOS 9.1 update, which adds a bunch more stuff. There's no way that particular download is a full install of MacOS 9. > Oh *no*! > > The original thread is still running, about 3 messages down from this > one, but already this *FALSE INFORMATION* is being promulgated around? > > You can indeed download 9.1, as you have been able to since the day it > was released, but it is an *PATCH ONLY*. It is NOT a complete bootable > OS in its own right. You need a copy of MacOS 9.0 to upgrade. > > Please don't spread the info that 9.x is now free around any further - > it is *not true.* > > -- > Liam Proven > Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com > AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com > From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Apr 4 19:52:03 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 20:52:03 -0400 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? References: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200504022341.j32NfYWD074978@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <4251E133.4B7CAB44@mindspring.com> > At least some CS/80 discs support the CS/80 low-level initialization > command. It's generally not clear how to do this, but if you go trawl > Google Groups for "mediainit vGD" you may find a transcript of how I > got HP-UX 7.05 to low-level format a 7946 disc so long ago that it's > on topic. The documentation does specify a "Format" command for CS-80 devices. I have used a bus system analyzer to format a number of drives this way. I don't recall formatting a 9133 but, I would be very suprised if it didn't work the same way. I have a HP9134 sitting here that was formatted last month using the analyzer. The command sequences are very unforgiving so doing it with an analyzer takes a LOT of patience! See yas, SteveRob From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Tue Apr 5 07:02:31 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 08:02:31 -0400 Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <1112700736.873.10.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost> <003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop> <20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net> <000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> <32891.64.169.63.74.1112687925.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <1112700736.873.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050405074757.02b3a6e0@mail.n.ml.org> Ok, working on thousands of mobo's and PC's (ick, i know) over the past decade, I must agree and disagree. Most Asus and Tyan boards have been ok, but, about 3-4 years ago, they also had the bad cap issues. The Asus A7V (early Socket A AMD Athlon/Duron line) and some of the 266 series had a leaky cap/cap failure issue for a while. Ended up replacing about 20 or so boards because of this (shop was too cheap to just replace caps when another board was on hand and took less time to swap boards than to fix the damned problem). As with the Tyans, some of the P-III socket 370 boards from 2000-2002 had such an issue as well, though, less so than Asus and obviously, much less than other manufacturers, such as Abit (the whole KT7/KT7A series was known to be an 8/10 failure rate for that time frame. later revisions, I believe called the 1.3 to 1.6 revisions, did not have these issues as different caps were used.). As far as I could remember, if the caps leaked that badly, there was a good chance that there was damage to other circuitry on the board and any attempts to repair should just go to replacing the board at that point to limit headaches from voltage and circuit instability caused by voltage flux from the bad caps. Once had an Iwill board in the shop I had worked in do that from caps going bad and could not figure out why it was giving errors in diags/Winblows until we re-examined the board with a magnifying glass and swapped out all the other components (ram, cpu, vid card, etc) and found there was a small trace going from an area near one of the caps to the northbridge that was a bit messed up. Replaced the board and things were still a bit messed up, had to replace the ram too and then everything cleared up. Voltage flux is nasty as sometimes, it is an unseen killer of parts. Best bet, if unsure if stuff is still safe, replace it and let someone else worry about headaches. -John Boffemmyer IV At 07:32 AM 4/5/2005, you wrote: >On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 00:58 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > Adrian wrote: > > > A friend of mine has a problem with Electrolytic caps on his motherboard > > > having gone "pop" & deposited their contents on some contacts... > > [...] > > > Does anyone know how best to remove dried capacitor electrolyte from a > > > surface? > > > > I don't know, but my solution to this has been to replace the affected > > motherboards. > >If the motherboard is "valuable" in some way (containing the right slot >layout for the user, or having a decent BIOS, or onboard SCSI or >something) then one option might just be to replace the damaged PCI >slot. > >I've never tried this, but it can't be much harder than snipping a dead >IC from a board, cleaning everything up, and replacing. Either buy a new >PCI socket from a component place, or try removing one from a dead >motherboard. I've never tried the latter (only with ISA sockets) - but a >blowtorch on the underside of the donor board might do the trick without >damaging the PCI slot.... > > > I'll note that I have never seen this problem with any of my Asus or > > Tyan motherboards > >FWIW I've seen it on a couple of dual-CPU Asus boards before now (but >have seen other Asus boards from the same era that have been fine). > >cheers > >Jules From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Apr 5 07:27:50 2005 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil&Cathy) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:27:50 +1000 Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. Message-ID: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> I was lucky enough today to score an as-new Atari Portfolio. In the box was the following "OWNER'S MANUAL ADDENDUM": (All caps as per original) USER WARNING: 1. DO NOT END A DOCUMENT IN THE TEXT EDITOR WITH A Space FOLLOWED BY A Return. If you do end a text file with a Space Return, a serious system error will occur when you load the file. This error will require you to remove the batteries from your computer, causing loss of all data from drive C: 2. NON-WEEKEND REPEATING ALARMS DO NOT WORK. DO NOT USE THEM. USE OF NON-WEEKEND REPEATING ALARMS MAY REQUIRE A COLD BOOT AS ABOVE. Imagine a product being released today with such brazen, data-destroying bugs! Then, it was par for the course. Just remember to end your files with _two_ returns and all's OK! Forget about repeating alarms during the week. It's only software so work around it. Beta testers? Not in Atari with the Tramiels in 1989! Cheers Phil From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 12:01:11 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:01:11 +0800 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: <031701c539d6$848943a0$392e083d@river> References: <031701c539d6$848943a0$392e083d@river> Message-ID: Ever interested in classic systems and having no prior knowledge as to what SC/MP II was, I was intrigued by your mention nevertheless... After having looked it up, the literature says that one of the unique feature of the SC/MP was/is the ability to share the system bus with other peers, therefore was designed for multiprocessing embedded system. The site further acknowledged that this feature alone makes th SC/MP II one of the most advanced design of its time. So anybody is planning to build a cluster of these babies? :-) p.s. do you have pics of your SC/MP system? I would love to have a look at them... On Apr 5, 2005 7:56 PM, river wrote: > Hi, > > Found the problem with the SC/MP. I don't have the SC/MP programming > manual but have figured out there was a difference of opinion between me > and TASM on a few instructions. I now understand all the SC/MP instructions > and TASM's expectations. > > Anyway, it's advanced from the prototype breadboard stage and it's now > a permanent system - all soldered and complete. > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Tue Apr 5 12:04:07 2005 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:04:07 -0500 (CDT) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504051704.MAA29858@caesar.cs.umn.edu> You may want to add this book to your list: Sunburst: The Ascent of Sun Microsystems -Larry LeMay From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 12:33:50 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:33:50 +0100 Subject: VAX COBOL media, and RRD40 difficulties In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c53a05$a254ef90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Well, thanks for the encouragement... :-} Always happy to help :-) > In fact, I'm planning to "bodge" a SCS-RRD40 to work with the > KRQ50... I figured, all I need is just a cable from the KRQ50 > to the CDROM's native LMS interface. I have a number of "SCSI RRD40"s that came from the innards of a VAXstation 3100 at some stage. They look to be a base LMSI RRD40 with a SCSI converter board. I expect that my boxed SCSI RRD40 is the same. So accessing the LMSI interface is probably easy. The connector at the KRQ50 end is (IIRC) just the usual amphenol one that DEC seemed to use on a number of different interfaces. So that just leaves the wiring. Sadly I cannot help there. I've never seen the actual cable so I do not know the pinout. I would guess that it is pretty much straight through (or maybe with one logical twist) but that still leaves a couple of possibilities and I do not know how much harm it would do to just "try" one. Maybe you can flush out someone on the list with KRQ50 prints or an actual example of the cable. Don't forget to publish your findings here if you ever do try it and it works (or fails .... might as well know what *doesn't* work!). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 5 12:22:36 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:22:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment) In-Reply-To: Dan Williams "Re: Completely On-Topic RT-11 DOCs (Massively Off-topic Re: possible dec equipment)" (Apr 5, 14:32) References: <001801c538aa$a871c030$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4251916D.7050200@compsys.to> <26c11a640504050632539432f7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10504051822.ZM428@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 5 2005, 14:32, Dan Williams wrote: > I was wondering about that myself, when I read this bit ;) > > > then had lunch and flew back to Santa Monica, well over a hundred > > pounds heavier... How appropriate, then, that the very next message in my mailbox was: From: TheGadgetStore.com Date: Tue Apr 5, 14:52 +0100 Subject: (TGS) Walk To Weight Loss, Mr Turnbull For ?7.95 plus shipping and handling* you can get your hands on the Body Fat Meter and Pedometer - two essential tools in fighting the flab -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 12:41:19 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:41:19 +0100 Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <1112700736.873.10.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000701c53a06$ae650d00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jules Richardson wrote: > If the motherboard is "valuable" in some way (containing the > right slot layout for the user, or having a decent BIOS, or > onboard SCSI or something) then one option might just be to > replace the damaged PCI slot. > > I've never tried this, but it can't be much harder than > snipping a dead IC from a board, cleaning everything up, and > replacing. Either buy a new PCI socket from a component place, > or try removing one from a dead motherboard. I've never tried > the latter (only with ISA sockets) - but a blowtorch on the > underside of the donor board might do the trick without > damaging the PCI slot.... I've removed a few ISA and PCI slots using a hot-air gun. My success rate for ISA was quite good but PCI was less good: I did salvage a few but most of the time part of the socket also melted and one or more connectors moved. I was doing this "just because I could" (I was scrounging other bits at the time) so I don't know whether the salvaged ISA or PCI slots would have worked again. A blow-torch seems even more destructive than a hot air gun! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 5 12:41:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:41:43 -0500 Subject: input sought for list Message-ID: <002301c53a06$bb7eeec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm looking for input from the list as to things that should be in the classiccmp list FAQ. I've got lots of ideas, but want to hit ideas I may not have thought of (I'm old, I forget ;)) If you have any text you think should be included in the FAQ, or ideas you'd like me to come up with text for, please email me offlist for review. In addition, I think it's high time to spruce up the classiccmp website. I'm not a web developer, so if anyone is good with HTML and would like to help maintain the classiccmp website, email me, your services would be appreciated! Along the same lines, I'm also looking for suggestions to improve the classiccmp website as to content and features. Any thoughts are appreciated! Regards, Jay West From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Apr 4 07:47:25 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 13:47:25 +0100 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: References: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050404134226.04856680@pop.freeserve.net> At 20:56 02/04/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > Couldn't you use the DOS subst command to fake out the C: drive to some > > higher-level folder, i.e. make your D:\scratch folder into the C: drive? > > Directories don't have the filesystem limits that the root directory of > > C: does. > > > > This of course, would 'map over' your C: drive (is that allowed by subst > > ?) > >DOS 3.3 doesn't allow this, otherwise the solution would've been simple ;) Is this a restriction on being unable to map "c:", or being unable to map out the boot drive (in which case the solution is simple - boot off something else, e.g. "a:") I have seen boot procedures in later versions of DOS swap around drive letters after boot (usually diagnostic boot discs that set up a ram disc as C:, and have the original drive somewhere else). Is there a mechanism in 3.30 to do something similar? Rob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 12:47:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:47:33 -0400 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! Message-ID: <0IEH00J0QIR7BDJ9@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: The SC/MP is finally alive! > From: Wai-Sun Chia >After having looked it up, the literature says that one of the unique >feature of the SC/MP was/is the ability to share the system bus with >other peers, therefore was designed for multiprocessing embedded >system. Yes. I used one of the later 8073 (SC/MP-II in Nmos) running Nibble Basic and used a second SC/MP-I (oldest pmos part) in an arrangement so the basic one did IO via the second using a shared bit of ram. It was impressive then (1980). >The site further acknowledged that this feature alone makes th SC/MP >II one of the most advanced design of its time. it was a little used but unique feature. However, it was also over rated as it took trivial TTL logic to get the same functionality when using 8085 or Z80s in multiples. >So anybody is planning to build a cluster of these babies? :-) Not likely. As micros go it was slow and if that much cpu was needed to share/multiprocessor an application people move up to Z80 or 8088. >p.s. do you have pics of your SC/MP system? I would love to have a >look at them... Yes, slides really. I only just got a digital camera so I have to dig stuff out and take pics, someday. Allison [keeper of old compuers, SBCs, S100, DEC PDP-8, PDP-11 and VAX] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Apr 5 12:46:09 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:46:09 +0100 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:56:34 +1000." <031701c539d6$848943a0$392e083d@river> Message-ID: <200504051746.SAA02600@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "river" said: > > Anyway, it's advanced from the prototype breadboard stage and it's now > a permanent system - all soldered and complete. > > For those that are interested, it's a SC/MP II (ISPA/600D) running at 2.048Mhz. [snip] > > Does anyone else here build old stuff like this? Or do you build your own debug > and monitor software? Any experimenters/builders here?# I don't get the time these days, but I used to build things like that. I had home-brew 8080 and SC/MP systems at one time. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 5 12:55:31 2005 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 12:55:31 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <200504051242.j35CgCYL015670@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504051242.j35CgCYL015670@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050405175530.GB16175@dbz.icequake.net> Replying to a bundle of posts again: > If you have an MFM drive used on an AT or better you have a good chance of > reading it on any AT or better system with most any controller. > RLL or 8 bit based systems have no such "standard". I think this is the best summary of the situation I've seen yet. > A terminator is also required at the last drive in the chain. Assuming > you are using just one drive, not having the terminator installed would > probably cause the drive not to work properly. Yeah, both drives have terminators. One of the Miniscribe drives doesn't have a terminator but I remembered to move it when I tried that drive. > If you are using a HD that originally had a twist, the jumper select > will most likely be set to drive 1. Using a straight cable will cause > the drive to appear as drive D instead of C ... I don't remember what > problems that will cause. So if using a straight cable, make sure the > drive select is at 0 (of 0-3) or 1 (of 1-4). That's where it appears to be on both Seagate drives. > If you are using an 8-bit card with the bios enabled, make sure in the > 386 setup that there is NO HD installed (the bios will take care of it.) Yup, did that. > If you are trying to save files on the HD AND it was installed with an > 8-bit controller, you don't have any choices but to use the 8-bit card > bios to access the data AND an identical controller to the one that was > used to low level format the drive. Fred can probably comment on whether > it has to be the same type of controller, or the same controller for > this to work. If you have any idea of what the original machine it came > out of was, that would help :). Here is the machine that the MFM drive came out of: http://docs.van-diepen.com/th99/m/I-L/30739.htm Intelligent Data Systems PC-88 > Finally, the clicking you hear on the drive is not a good sign. I would > power up the drive with no cables connected (except of course the power > cable) and if the clicking still continues, the drive is probably bad. Clicking only happens when I've connected it to one of the 16-bit controllers and the BIOS is attempting to find the disk. Otherwise the drives sound fine. > If it is important enough, you could also send the drive to a data > recovery service and leave it to them to deal with it. Not really important, but the drives used to be in BBS systems in the early 90's and we are quite interested in the files and messages that are on there for archival purposes. > A few times I've seen different PC controllers from the same manufacturer > (i.e. WD or whatever) work from one model to another but not be able to boot > without a low-level formatting (booting from a floppy allows access). Now *this* is interesting. I was assuming that if the drive was going to work at all, it would be bootable too. Why is is that you wouldn't be able to boot from the drive, yet you'd be able to read it if you booted from some other media? > As was pointed out if you know the drives were formatted on a 8 bit > controller just set the BIOS to no hard drive and don't even try the 16 bit > controllers, they would just be a waste of time. Your best bet would be to > try different 8 bit cards and boot to a floppy then do a "dir c:", repeat > until you've tried all cards. Okay, will do. > Does the controller require a real 8 bit machine, yes not all 8 bit > controllers even worked in 16 bit computers. Any examples of problem controllers in this area? > Is the drive bad. > Has the drive formatting been messed up. Hoping not :( > Is the drive terminated properly. > Is the drive jumpered properly. As far as I can tell, yes. > On IDE all of the truly low level stuff is 100% hidden so the only > compatibility problems with IDE tended to be drive geometry (early problems > when the same drive could be addressed by different geometries) . Yeah, I had a Fujitsu IDE drive die on me recently. I was able to get the data by swapping the drive PCB with that of another drive which was the same model, but not identical (6 months newer, different stuff on the label). I was surprised that it actually worked. -- Ryan Underwood, From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 5 12:59:43 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:59:43 -0400 Subject: AppleTalk & CAP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Apr 2005 22:23:49 EDT." <1112667829.13949.8.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <200504051759.j35Hxhr6007786@mwave.heeltoe.com> David Holland wrote: > >Has anyone done anything w/ CAP and Apple IIgs's lately, and have any >good guesses why files created on the Unix "share" (from the GS of >course) appear to loose their filetypes? The .finderinfo, >and .resource directories are there, and clean, but CAP appears to be >storing the wrong data in .finderinfo. Just curious, but is this old data or new data, i.e. are you creating new file that "loose" their finderinfo between sessions? I'm suprised to here linux/netatalk only do phase 2. I guess that's progress. I know a little about macs but never used AFP with a IIgs. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 5 13:07:10 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:07:10 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <200504051807.j35I7ANL008986@mwave.heeltoe.com> hi, Silly me, I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. Naturally it's just the drive. It has a nice Digital sticker on the side and seems dirty but mechanically sound and the head looks ok. So, where can I get a controller card for this thing? any ideas? are these things like hen's teeth? Naturally I have an unibus rx01 controller card, so all I need is a controller card for this drive, right? (and a cable, and power supplies :-) I just have this unbending need to boot rt-11 from it. I know it's silly but I need to do it. And, it seemed like it might be fun to boot other things too. Plus, with the Shugart drives I have I thought I might actually be able to transfer small files. -brad From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 5 13:22:08 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:22:08 -0700 Subject: Simon Relay Computer Message-ID: <4252D750.C8FBB0FE@rain.org> I was just looking through the reprint of the Radio-Electronic magazines articles that describe the Simon computer. For those of you who haven't seen them and have thought about building one, they are NOT a construction or kit article per se, but rather they give a description of how the computer works. As such, I don't consider it "light reading" material to just read and build! It doesn't look like it would be too difficult to build once the wiring was laid out. The 120 or so relays used were war surplus, 24 VDC, 4PDT according to the article. The only perhaps hard to find items would be the stepper switch with make-before-break contacts, and a paper tape reader. One perverted thought I've had to make things a lot simpler to build is to use a PLC :). I started to gather the parts some time ago including 150 NOS DPDT 12 VDC relays and some NOS pilot light housings, but just don't have the time for YAP (Yet Another Project.) So, the parts I've gathered along with a CD containing scans of the Radio-Electronics Simon reprint have been listed on VCM. From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 13:27:27 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:27:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 82954A Message-ID: <20050405182727.30727.qmail@web25002.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Two rolls, 4.25" x 400', of HP thermal paper for HP85 printer or similar. Anyone want/need these? Collect or postage from UK. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 5 13:31:02 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:31:02 -0500 Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. In-Reply-To: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> References: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> Message-ID: <4252D966.2080706@oldskool.org> Phil&Cathy wrote: > If you do end a text file with a Space Return, a serious system error > will occur when you load the file. This error will require you to remove > the batteries from your computer, causing loss of all data from drive C: Oh my sweet lord. That is collosal -- who programmed the text editor, monkeys? What kind of stupid bug is that? Curt, have you heard of this and was a fix ever released? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 13:38:40 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:38:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue Message-ID: <20050405183840.97075.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > I've removed a few ISA and PCI slots using a hot-air gun. > My success rate for ISA was quite good but PCI was less good: I've found using the wide flat nozzle helps, it's easier to heat the length of the connector evenly. > I was doing this "just because I could" (I was scrounging > other bits at the time) so I don't know whether the > salvaged ISA or PCI slots would have worked again. Likewise, I do know the ISA slots will work again though as I use them for things like this .. http://www.themotionstore.com/leeedavison/6502/vic20/isa/index.html Cheers, Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Apr 5 13:45:12 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:45:12 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <200504051242.j35CgCYL015670@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050405175530.GB16175@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <002e01c53a0f$9d617ee0$0e3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Ryan Underwood" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:55 PM >> A few times I've seen different PC controllers from the same manufacturer >> (i.e. WD or whatever) work from one model to another but not be able to >> boot >> without a low-level formatting (booting from a floppy allows access). > > Now *this* is interesting. I was assuming that if the drive was going > to work at all, it would be bootable too. Why is is that you wouldn't > be able to boot from the drive, yet you'd be able to read it if you > booted from some other media? I have no idea why just something I had run into, as I remember it was between two WD cards, one 3/4 length vard vs. 1/2 length card. Sometimes the only answer I had was just because, I never had technical manuals on the cards and I just used them "blind" accepting that they do what they do. The problem turned up when I replaced a bad controller, I tested it back and forth to try and figure out how to make one boot when formatted from the other but never got it to. >> Does the controller require a real 8 bit machine, yes not all 8 bit >> controllers even worked in 16 bit computers. > > Any examples of problem controllers in this area? I have one around somewher, an Adaptec 8 bit only RLL controller I know DTC had some 8 bit only I'm sure there are others. You can test your controllers by using a drive you know is good but you are not interested in the data and try formatting it and using it with your controllers (very time consuming since you have to format for each controller). Doing this will verify that everything minus the hard drive is OK. >> On IDE all of the truly low level stuff is 100% hidden so the only >> compatibility problems with IDE tended to be drive geometry (early >> problems >> when the same drive could be addressed by different geometries) . > > Yeah, I had a Fujitsu IDE drive die on me recently. I was able to get > the data by swapping the drive PCB with that of another drive which was > the same model, but not identical (6 months newer, different stuff on > the label). I was surprised that it actually worked. > > -- > Ryan Underwood, Once people get used to an IDE just plugging in and working we tend to forget the problems of classic systems hard drives :) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 5 13:47:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:47:54 -0500 Subject: Hardware storage (was: Re: Corrosion pains) In-Reply-To: <20050404184320.24e7215c.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD1E@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <20050404184320.24e7215c.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4252DD5A.4080400@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: >> >>How do people store their computer stuff medium to long term. > > Ummm, I have a stack of 'Beige G3' Macintoshes next to the sofa in the See, my wife would not have stood for that one bit, so when we went looking for a new house, I had a grand total of three stipulations: - Must have partially or fully finished basement - Basement must be fairly soundproof (ie loud music in basement can't be a nuisance in the kid's bedrooms) as I play a lot of early 1980's-era games with very loud BEEP BOOP sounds that are annoying to some members of the family - Must have a crawlspace ...and that narrowed our search considerably :-) I have 25+ machines plus monitors, etc. stuffed in the crawlspace. Critters are occaisionally a problem, so anything I truly care about gets wrapped in a plastic trash bag, then put into a box. This keeps the insects out, and smells are trapped so the rodents aren't tempted to gnaw through anything (although, just in case, I keep a poison trap in there and replace it every year). The crawlspace is hidden by what looks like a closet door in the finished part of the basement, about 8 feet away from my work area. When I need a machine, I get it out of the crawlspace and set it up, then put it back when I'm done. Eventually I'll need to buy some kneepads, though, since it's hard on the knees and back. I do back stretches every other day specifically to keep in shape for getting things in/out of the space -- some things can be slid along the carpet swatches I laid down in there but some lifting needs to be performed while you are on hands and knees. As for moisture; I live in a very medium-tempered climate so it's not a problem (I don't even have a sump pump in the house, it wasn't necessary when the house was built). In my previous house, it *was* a problem so all of the machines were on makeshift wooden shelves that guaranteed each piece of hardware was 3 inches off of the ground. The sump pump failed one time, and if it weren't for those shelves, all of my collection would have been 2 inches deep in water. The best part of the crawlspace is that the wife doesn't really know how much I have. She's too freaked to go in there (dark, occaisional dead mouse). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 5 13:50:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 11:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <200504051807.j35I7ANL008986@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504051807.j35I7ANL008986@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <36802.207.145.53.202.1112727038.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Brad wrote: I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. Naturally it's > just the drive. [...] where can I get a controller card [...] Naturally > I have an unibus rx01 controller card, so all I need is a controller card > for this drive, right? I'm completely confused. You have a controller card? Or you don't? If you have one, surely you don't need one? Or are you saying that you need one for a different bus? Or is your drive missing the drive electronics, which is the real controller (vs. the Mxxxx "controllers", which are really just host adapters)? The "controllers" (host adapters) are: Unibus Qbus Omnibus ----------- ----------- ---------- RX01 RX11 M7846 RXV11 M7946 RX8E M8357 RX02 RX211 M8256 RXV21 M8029 RX28 M8357 (Note that the RX8E and RX28 are exactly the same module.) Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 5 13:50:54 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:50:54 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net> <1112650728.18074.73.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4252DE0E.4000708@oldskool.org> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 16:21 -0500, Ryan Underwood wrote: > >>Now, I'm either doing something wrong or all these drives are dead. >> >>I am using a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20-pin data cable. > > I don't remember ever using a twisted cable with a hard disk, only with > floppy drive (and then only in the PC world). I think both control / > data cables should just be straight through. My MFM controller/drive setup has two cables and neither are twisted... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:07:26 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:07:26 +0100 Subject: Removing Electrolytic cap residue References: <20050404212150.GA16175@dbz.icequake.net><5.1.0.14.2.20050404183645.0bf5abb0@localhost><003501c53973$0aa07f80$2b92d6d1@randylaptop><20050404230022.3e7f80bb.chenmel@earthlink.net><000c01c53999$720c10a0$1d92d6d1@randylaptop> <6.1.2.0.2.20050405055927.02192ec0@orac> Message-ID: <004001c53a12$b50122a0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Flux cleaner may work, or just wash in distilled water. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Vickers" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 6:01 AM Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue > A friend of mine has a problem with Electrolytic caps on his motherboard > having gone "pop" & deposited their contents on some contacts... > > Although this is a PeeCee (spit) that's affected, I thought I'd ask the > assembled knowledgeable types here, as it's also a problem which COULD > affect our Olde Worlde computers quite easily... > > > Quote > > "Does anyone know how best to remove dried capacitor electrolyte from a > surface? I have tried a number of solvents, including Ultrsolve and Super > Servisol, but the stuff seems is set hard. > > A couple of capacitors leaked on a motherboard and have dripped into one of > the PCI slots. They are insulating some of the pins, so the slot cannot be > used, but I need the slot. The capacitors were easily replaced (just > pennies and half an hour in front of the TV) but I'm really not sure how to > clean those PCI slot contacts. > > The electrolyte dries to a brown varnish-like film. There seem to be a > bunch of these exploded capacitors coming in from PCs manufactured around > 2002 (I reckon the worldwide supply of dodgy caps from the 1999/2000 > production were put in storage for a few years, then bought up by Packard > Bell and friends)." > > Endquote > > Thanks in advance, all. > > > Cheers, > Ade. > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 5 14:08:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:08:59 -0400 Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. References: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> Message-ID: <16978.57931.577654.120015@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Phil&Cathy" == Phil&Cathy writes: Phil&Cathy> I was lucky enough today to score an as-new Atari Phil&Cathy> Portfolio. In the box was the following "OWNER'S MANUAL Phil&Cathy> ADDENDUM": (All caps as per original) Phil&Cathy> USER WARNING: Phil&Cathy> 1. DO NOT END A DOCUMENT IN THE TEXT EDITOR WITH A Space Phil&Cathy> FOLLOWED BY A Return. ... Phil&Cathy> Imagine a product being released today with such brazen, Phil&Cathy> data-destroying bugs! Then, it was par for the Phil&Cathy> course. Maybe it was for Atari, but not for real companies. paul From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Apr 5 14:22:43 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:22:43 +0200 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BB8@gd-mail03.oce.nl> I have two RX01 drives ... the two boards *inside* an RX01 drive have an Mxxxx number too! They are listed in the Field Guide: M7726 and M7727. - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: 5-4-2005 20:50 Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board Brad wrote: I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. Naturally it's > just the drive. [...] where can I get a controller card [...] Naturally > I have an unibus rx01 controller card, so all I need is a controller card > for this drive, right? I'm completely confused. You have a controller card? Or you don't? If you have one, surely you don't need one? Or are you saying that you need one for a different bus? Or is your drive missing the drive electronics, which is the real controller (vs. the Mxxxx "controllers", which are really just host adapters)? The "controllers" (host adapters) are: Unibus Qbus Omnibus ----------- ----------- ---------- RX01 RX11 M7846 RXV11 M7946 RX8E M8357 RX02 RX211 M8256 RXV21 M8029 RX28 M8357 (Note that the RX8E and RX28 are exactly the same module.) Eric From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Apr 5 14:33:31 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 20:33:31 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. Message-ID: <00a301c53a16$59f13a40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, A quick question raised by my ongoing work.... Is it possible to write directly to the "display register" - the one accessed by one position of the data switch. I think it should be at memory location 777570, but I can't get data into it, either using deposit from the console, or moving data under program control. Have I got a fault, or am I doing something wrong? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 08:03:58 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:03:58 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) Message-ID: First off, if anyone ever needs some server space to just dump stuff, I've got about a gig of space I can dish out for files and stuff, and ~15 gigs of b/w a month for usage, over charges are negligable anyway, so feel happy to have fun with whatever you upload (email me for info) Also, I've got an O2 with all sorts of goodies (loaded with ram, analog a/v board, etc) but no drive sled! I check ebay often but (unless I'm doing something stupid) I don't see any. Finally, does anyone have OS (Tru64 or else) that will run on a 3000-300x? It's got 256 megs ram, and two internal 4.3's that I'm not sure will actually work, but I've no way to test, anyone who knows anything about this info I'd love to hear from you. Thanks! -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG - FM19t From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 14:37:24 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 15:37:24 -0400 Subject: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <20050404150348.Y42328@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Actually, XP will only run on a 486DX4 (of any speed), the DX4 introduced an instruction required by XP On 4/4/05 6:06 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >> This is on topic, since 9.1 will run on any Power Mac. Apple has now offered >> OS 9.1 for free download. And no, it's not a joke. > > This is what is great about CCTALK. > This information is useful for a lot of us, > but is NOT "ON-TOPIC". > > (XP can run on a 386, > but nobody would claim that IT is "on-topic".) -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG - FM19t From GOOI at oce.nl Tue Apr 5 14:45:57 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:45:57 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Well, let's try to give an answer. The SWitch Register is what is says: *switch* register. So you can read the switches from it, but writing to it is no use. Don't shoot me if I am mistaken! From memory, the address is 777570. - Henk, PA8PDP. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: Classic computer list Sent: 5-4-2005 21:33 Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. Hi, A quick question raised by my ongoing work.... Is it possible to write directly to the "display register" - the one accessed by one position of the data switch. I think it should be at memory location 777570, but I can't get data into it, either using deposit from the console, or moving data under program control. Have I got a fault, or am I doing something wrong? Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 5 14:49:36 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:49:36 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <20050405001210.GB28565@dbz.icequake.net> References: <200504042339.j34NcQvs009263@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050405001210.GB28565@dbz.icequake.net> Message-ID: <4252EBD0.3030609@oldskool.org> Ryan Underwood wrote: > Anyway, I switched to a straight through connection. I tried the > Miniscribe drives with the 27X and the ST-238R with both the 27X and the Wait -- the Miniscribes are MFM, yes? You should be testing them with the WD controller, not the RLL controller. Also, since you're testing on a 386, go into the 386's BIOS and make sure that the 386 isn't trying to map something into the ROM address space that the controllers are trying to use (ie see if it's possible to relocate the 386's onboard IDE controller BIOS location, if it has one -- my Dell 316sx works like this, for example... can also relocate video ROM location too). If you exhaust all options, send me the MFM drive -- I have a 100% working WD1002 system set up right now with an ST-225 and could take a look at it for you. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 5 14:50:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:50:55 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <4251DA87.D48632B2@rain.org> References: <4251DA87.D48632B2@rain.org> Message-ID: <4252EC1F.8040402@oldskool.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > A terminator is also required at the last drive in the chain. Assuming > you are using just one drive, not having the terminator installed would > probably cause the drive not to work properly. Isn't that only a requirement of SCSI drives? I certainly don't have any terminators on my MFM/RLL drives... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Apr 5 15:07:38 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:07:38 +0200 Subject: Digital VAX Rdb/VMS books Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050405220730.034591e8@pop.xs4all.nl> Anybody here interested in a bunch of Digital VAX Rdb/VMS books ? Quite a few are still sealed. I prefer to sell them because I need the space and could use any extra money but I am willing to swap them for something else or perhaps even give them to someone for just the postage. Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 5 15:08:17 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:08:17 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050405160630.0489a380@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Gary Sparkes may have mentioned these words: >[snip] >Finally, does anyone have OS (Tru64 or else) that will run on a 3000-300x? >It's got 256 megs ram, and two internal 4.3's that I'm not sure will >actually work, but I've no way to test, anyone who knows anything about this >info I'd love to hear from you. I have a 3000/300 that I had Tru64 ver. 5.0 install CDs for -- tho I'm not sure where they're packed currently... Would that work? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch at 30below.com | From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Apr 5 15:11:39 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:11:39 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: Almost. The SR and the DR are at the same memory location. Reading gives the switch settings (the low 16 bits worth), writing sets the display register, assuming the Data Display Switch is set correctly. You cannot read back what you have written, you will always get the switch settings. Can't say if you have a fault or are doing something incorrectly yet. Not certain you can set the display register from the console. Someone with a live /45 might check that. John At 9:45 PM +0200 4/5/05, Gooijen H wrote: > Well, let's try to give an answer. >The SWitch Register is what is says: *switch* register. >So you can read the switches from it, but writing to it is no use. >Don't shoot me if I am mistaken! From memory, the address is 777570. > >- Henk, PA8PDP. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >To: Classic computer list >Sent: 5-4-2005 21:33 >Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. > >Hi, > >A quick question raised by my ongoing work.... > >Is it possible to write directly to the "display register" - the one >accessed by one position of the data switch. I think it should be at >memory >location 777570, but I can't get data into it, either using deposit from >the >console, or moving data under program control. > >Have I got a fault, or am I doing something wrong? > >Thanks > >Jim. > >Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at >WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 5 15:16:07 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 13:16:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <4252EC1F.8040402@oldskool.org> References: <4251DA87.D48632B2@rain.org> <4252EC1F.8040402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <43141.207.145.53.202.1112732167.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jim wrote: > Isn't that only a requirement of SCSI drives? I certainly don't have any > terminators on my MFM/RLL drives... Yes, you're supposed to have termination on your last floppy drive, and on your last ST506/ST412 or ESDI drive, and not on any others on the chains. I'm not sure about the ST506/ST412 and ESDI drives, but for 3.5" floppy drives they cheat, and put a higher-value termination on each drive, so that you can have two drives without removing the terminator from the one in the middle of the bus. Completely wrong as far as transmission line theory goes, but the signal edges are slow enough that it works more-or-less OK. On ST506/ST412 and ESDI drives, the data signals are on the radial connector (20 position), and have non-removable termination, but the the low-speed signals on the 34-position connector are still supposed to be terminated properly since that connection can be bussed to multiple drives. Eric From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 15:25:07 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:25:07 +0100 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001c01c53a1d$90164b90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Steven N. Hirsch wrote: > Be careful! All Macs up to and including the Grey G4 towers > (and perhaps newer) require low-density SDRAM. These can be > deceptively difficult to find unless you keep your eyes open. > I can tell you from experience that newer PC100/PC133 memory > will not work reliably, if the machine even boots at all. > > For 256M, at least, the correct modules will have chips on > both sides. At the risk of drifting off-topic, I've sold SDRAM to people who have dropped them into iMacs, eMacs and various PowerMacs. Apart from an occasional problem with 512MB modules in PowerMacs they've all been fine (and 256MB and 128MB seem to work everywhere). These are PC100, double-sided, ECC SDRAM DIMMs. I don't think even a modern machine could consider 512MB to be low-density (although SDRAM has obviously been left in the information superhighway's gutter :0 ). I don't claim to know much about Macs (I have a 6100 in the garage and that's it) but people have paid real money and not complained, so I assume that they were happy! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Apr 5 15:30:31 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:30:31 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <4251DA87.D48632B2@rain.org> <4252EC1F.8040402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <000c01c53a1e$5b043740$5c3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jim Leonard" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 2:50 PM > Marvin Johnston wrote: >> A terminator is also required at the last drive in the chain. Assuming >> you are using just one drive, not having the terminator installed would >> probably cause the drive not to work properly. > > Isn't that only a requirement of SCSI drives? I certainly don't have any > terminators on my MFM/RLL drives... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Want to help an ambitious games project? > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ All MFM & RLL systems should have the last drive terminated. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 5 15:47:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 14:47:30 -0600 Subject: Obscure DOS question In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050404134226.04856680@pop.freeserve.net> References: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.0.14.0.20050404134226.04856680@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <4252F962.3060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > I have seen boot procedures in later versions of DOS swap around drive > letters after boot (usually diagnostic boot discs that set up a ram > disc as C:, and have the original drive somewhere else). Is there a > mechanism in 3.30 to do something similar? > Speaking of boot procedures, could the original post with the 512+ files in the root directory be because of a semi-custiom version of dos to handle big hard drives over the 32meg dos limit at the time. With the sector size increased dos would have directory room for more and bigger files. Ben. From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 5 16:10:53 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:10:53 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:50:38 PDT." <36802.207.145.53.202.1112727038.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <200504052110.j35LAsxb017184@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Eric Smith" wrote: >Brad wrote: >I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. Naturally it's >> just the drive. [...] where can I get a controller card [...] Naturally >> I have an unibus rx01 controller card, so all I need is a controller card >> for this drive, right? > >I'm completely confused. You have a controller card? Or you don't? If Sorry. To much coffee and emulators today :-) I bought an RX01 8" drive and it has no drive electronics card on it. I have an RX11 M7846 controller (host adapter). I assume to make this work I need an electronics card on the RX01 drive itself. The drive has what looks like mounting holes for a PCB and I the RX11 is way too simple so I assume there is something which bolts onto the RX01 drive. And a ribbon cable between them. And a power supply :-) -brad From pspan at amerytel.net Tue Apr 5 16:19:51 2005 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:19:51 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL Message-ID: <002101c53a25$349c8100$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hi, Thought I wouold drop a note regarding the drives. Not only does BIOS need to be configured (usually by type) but my drives seem to need 2 cables??? One floppy drive cable should not enable the controller to talk to the drives at all. Phil From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 5 16:17:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:17:48 -0500 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board References: <200504052110.j35LAsxb017184@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <008a01c53a24$eb734180$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Brad wrote.... > I assume to make this work I need an electronics card on the RX01 drive > itself. The drive has what looks like mounting holes for a PCB and I > the RX11 is way too simple so I assume there is something which bolts > onto the RX01 drive. And a ribbon cable between them. And a power > supply :-) I have a problematic RX02 "internal" controller card, I was in a hurry to get the drive operational and just bought a new card for it. You're welcome to the old one (which obviously needs some repair), if it will help in your quest. Jay From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 5 16:38:59 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:38:59 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBB@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <16979.1395.262870.979154@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Gooijen" == Gooijen H writes: Gooijen> Well, let's try to give an answer. The SWitch Register is Gooijen> what is says: *switch* register. So you can read the Gooijen> switches from it, but writing to it is no use. Don't shoot Gooijen> me if I am mistaken! From memory, the address is 777570. The switches are read-only at 777570; the display register is write-only at the same address. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 16:40:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:40:06 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEH00750TIQ8MZ5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: "Jay West" > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 16:17:48 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Brad wrote.... >> I assume to make this work I need an electronics card on the RX01 drive >> itself. The drive has what looks like mounting holes for a PCB and I >> the RX11 is way too simple so I assume there is something which bolts >> onto the RX01 drive. And a ribbon cable between them. And a power >> supply :-) > >I have a problematic RX02 "internal" controller card, I was in a hurry to >get the drive operational and just bought a new card for it. You're welcome >to the old one (which obviously needs some repair), if it will help in your >quest. RX02 does not work with RX11, also the bords for rx02 and rx01 are "sets" that I've found are not cross interchangeable. If you building up an RX01 you need both drive internal boards and RX11 to be of the RX01 part group. I know this as my RX02 started life as an RX01. Then I changed the drive boards and use a RXV21 with it. Which RX01 card do you need the Drive interface or the "processor" board? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 16:43:23 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:43:23 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEH007I2TO78VY5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: Brad Parker > >"Eric Smith" wrote: >>Brad wrote: >>I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. Naturally it's >>> just the drive. [...] where can I get a controller card [...] Naturally >>> I have an unibus rx01 controller card, so all I need is a controller card >>> for this drive, right? >> >>I'm completely confused. You have a controller card? Or you don't? If > >Sorry. To much coffee and emulators today :-) > >I bought an RX01 8" drive and it has no drive electronics card on it. > >I have an RX11 M7846 controller (host adapter). > >I assume to make this work I need an electronics card on the RX01 drive >itself. The drive has what looks like mounting holes for a PCB and I >the RX11 is way too simple so I assume there is something which bolts >onto the RX01 drive. And a ribbon cable between them. And a power >supply :-) > >-brad Brad did you buy a bare drive? If so you need the cab, power supply and both logic cards. Yes in the RX01 dual drive there is a pair of cards that are drive interface and processor. the RX11 is just an interface to the processor. Allison From river at zip.com.au Tue Apr 5 16:44:02 2005 From: river at zip.com.au (river) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:44:02 +1000 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! Message-ID: <006901c53a28$996a23a0$7620083d@river> Hi, Yes, for it's time (1976) the SC/MP had the logic that allowed it to share the bus with other processors etc. The 8080 chip could also do this, but this device required 3 separate power supplies and you needed three chips to get the CPU working properly. The 6800 also offered similar multiprocessing abilities and, like the SC/MP was a single chip system, but I'm not sure if it came out before or after the SC/MP. The SC/MP I (ISPA/500) was a PMOS device and required +5 and -7 volt power rails. The SC/MP II (ISPA/600) was NMOS and required only +5 rail (same as the 6800), it also had three of it's CPU control lines inverted (as compared to the SC/MP I) and though it could take 4 times the speed of the clock of the SC/MP I, due to internal clocking it ran only twice as fast. What made the SC/MP popular back in those days was the cost. It was about a quarter of the cost of the 8080 and 6800 processors. The SC/MP, like some other early processors, such as the 2650, had it's memory divided into pages, and the Program Counter couldn't access the entire memory unless some specific registers or jump/load instructions were used. The simplicity of the SC/MP instruction set (only 46 instructions) is it's strength, yet also a part of its weakness (ie, page memory, no dedicated stack, no compare instructions, no rotate/shift left, cumbersome interrupt, etc). Half the fun is getting the hardware all going, and the rest of the fun is to lock horns with it's instruction set and do some fancy programming. I'll take a few pics of the system (including my homebuilt 8085 system) and let you know when they are on the web. Finally, it's good to see some other old SC/MP dudes around and also others who like to build and program their systems from scratch. river From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 16:55:59 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:55:59 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEH001QOU970F73@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: "Eric Smith" > Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 11:50:38 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Brad wrote: >I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. Naturally it's >> just the drive. [...] where can I get a controller card [...] Naturally >> I have an unibus rx01 controller card, so all I need is a controller card >> for this drive, right? > >I'm completely confused. You have a controller card? Or you don't? If >you have one, surely you don't need one? Or are you saying that you need >one for a different bus? Or is your drive missing the drive electronics, >which is the real controller (vs. the Mxxxx "controllers", which are >really just host adapters)? > >The "controllers" (host adapters) are: > > Unibus Qbus Omnibus > ----------- ----------- ---------- >RX01 RX11 M7846 RXV11 M7946 RX8E M8357 >RX02 RX211 M8256 RXV21 M8029 RX28 M8357 Eric, Sound to me like he got a bare drive and no 54-xxxxx boards and PS to make a complete rx01. Iv'e found the base mechanics are common as people part out rx01/02s for the boards or PS. Brad, If you listening the real RX01 is heavy, two drives in a rack width cab nearly 11" high, contining a powersupply and two long cards that supply drive interface (for both drives) and processor (nearly a complete FDC in itself). Allison From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 5 16:56:46 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:56:46 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:40:06 EDT." <0IEH00750TIQ8MZ5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200504052156.j35LukgH019658@mwave.heeltoe.com> Allison wrote: > >If you building up an RX01 you need both drive internal boards and RX11 >to be of the RX01 part group. Ah. Well I have a unibus RX11. I guess I need 2 internal boards for the drive itself? My drive has no PC boards. I figured I'd fake the power supply somehow (I have lots of lambda's and such around). -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Apr 5 16:58:29 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:58:29 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 Apr 2005 17:43:23 EDT." <0IEH007I2TO78VY5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200504052158.j35LwT99019764@mwave.heeltoe.com> Allison wrote: > >Brad did you buy a bare drive? yes, apparently I did :-) >If so you need the cab, power supply and both logic cards. So, it seems I need the 2 logic cards. All that for a floppy :-) thanks! -brad From nemesis-lists at icequake.net Tue Apr 5 17:01:12 2005 From: nemesis-lists at icequake.net (Ryan Underwood) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:01:12 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <200504052057.j35KuqWV021886@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504052057.j35KuqWV021886@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050405220112.GC16175@dbz.icequake.net> On Tue, Apr 05, 2005 at 03:57:24PM -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Wait -- the Miniscribes are MFM, yes? You should be testing them with the WD > controller, not the RLL controller. No, they are RLL. 8438 are RLL variant of the 8425. They ran for years with the 27X controller in my family's XT :) > Also, since you're testing on a 386, go into the 386's BIOS and make sure that > the 386 isn't trying to map something into the ROM address space that the > controllers are trying to use (ie see if it's possible to relocate the 386's > onboard IDE controller BIOS location, if it has one -- my Dell 316sx works like > this, for example... can also relocate video ROM location too). This is a 386 clone board without any onboard peripherals. > If you exhaust all options, send me the MFM drive -- I have a 100% working > WD1002 system set up right now with an ST-225 and could take a look at it for you. I'll keep that in mind, thanks! > Isn't that only a requirement of SCSI drives? I certainly don't have any > terminators on my MFM/RLL drives... These are terminating resistor packs which are located on the drive PCB, not a terminator in the SCSI sense where it's plugged into the end of the chain. Also, I believe SCSI terminators are composed of transistors, not resistors. -- Ryan Underwood, From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 5 17:05:47 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:05:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: Brad Parker "Re: rx01 w/o controller board" (Apr 5, 17:10) References: <200504052110.j35LAsxb017184@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <10504052305.ZM984@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 5 2005, 17:10, Brad Parker wrote: > > I bought an RX01 8" drive and it has no drive electronics card on it. > > I have an RX11 M7846 controller (host adapter). > > I assume to make this work I need an electronics card on the RX01 drive > itself. The drive has what looks like mounting holes for a PCB and I > the RX11 is way too simple so I assume there is something which bolts > onto the RX01 drive. And a ribbon cable between them. And a power > supply :-) Yes, but perhaps not quite in the form you might expect. As Henk mentioned earlier, there are two boards in an RX01 or RX02, and they're both quite big -- they sit one above the other and each spans across two drives. Not at all like SA800-style drives, which normally have one PCB on the top of each drive. The power supply is mounted behind the drives on a substantial chassis, to part of which the two PCBs are also mounted (the upper one is hinged at the left hand side to provide access to the lower one). Your host adapter is little more than a parallel interface; it talks over a 40-way ribbon cable (but less than half the pins are used) to one of the boards on the RX02 unit which has a state machine to execute various commands, and that board in turn connects via another ribbon cable to the lower board, which has the amplifiers and so forth on it. The head cables plug into this lower board. AFAIK the drive mechanisms for an RX01 and RX02 are the same; only the boards differ. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Apr 5 17:14:00 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:14:00 +0100 Subject: Collect all Macs? was Re: Mac OS 9.1 now a free download In-Reply-To: <001c01c53a1d$90164b90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200504052213.j35MDfj1023118@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Apart from an occasional problem with 512MB modules in > PowerMacs they've all been fine (and 256MB and 128MB seem to > work everywhere). My G3 is full of PC100 and PC133 DIMMS so maybe that's why it's unhappy....hmm..... I think I'll try and borrow one of the 266mhz G3s at my watford post tomorrow just to see how it compares. cheers a From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Apr 5 17:18:51 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:18:51 +0100 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050405160630.0489a380@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200504052218.j35MIPAU023141@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Merchberger > Sent: 05 April 2005 21:08 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) > > I have a 3000/300 that I had Tru64 ver. 5.0 install CDs for > -- tho I'm not sure where they're packed currently... > > Would that work? It may be too much; back in the day the 3000-300LX was an OSF 1.3 machine and it was quite speedy, though having said that my own 3000-300 came with Tru64 4.0G CDs so 5.x could be OK. I've got easy access to 4.0x CDs if needs be but since I'm in the UK and currently on the end of a slow DSL connection then a CD copy and post would be necessary. cheers a From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 17:22:12 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:22:12 -0400 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! Message-ID: <0IEH009S7VGVVS14@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: The SC/MP is finally alive! > From: "river" > Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 07:44:02 +1000 > To: > >Hi, > >Yes, for it's time (1976) the SC/MP had the logic that allowed it to share >the bus with other processors etc. The 8080 chip could also do this, but >this device required 3 separate power supplies and you needed three chips >to get the CPU working properly. The 6800 also offered similar multiprocessing >abilities and, like the SC/MP was a single chip system, but I'm not sure if it >came out before or after the SC/MP. Commnet: The biggest differnce between the SC/MP bus intnerface was that the sc/mp didn't assume it was the bust master. So the bus interface pins did a priority resolution with other potential bus masters. All of the other cpus (8080, 8085, z80, 6502, 6800 etal) assumed they were the bus master and you took the bus only after being granted DMA access. While the difference is a small one it's notable in that all of it's peers of the time were different. >The SC/MP I (ISPA/500) was a PMOS device and required +5 and -7 volt power >rails. The SC/MP II (ISPA/600) was NMOS and required only +5 rail (same as the >6800), it also had three of it's CPU control lines inverted (as compared to the >SC/MP I) and though it could take 4 times the speed of the clock of the SC/MP I, >due to internal clocking it ran only twice as fast. > >What made the SC/MP popular back in those days was the cost. It was about a >quarter of the cost of the 8080 and 6800 processors. The cost factor was insignificant by 1978. The CPU was only part of a systems cost. >Finally, it's good to see some other old SC/MP dudes around and also others who like >to build and program their systems from scratch. I started a SC/MP cpu in TTL and Bit slice (2901) and then abandoned it for a design that expanded it in some obvious ways. the sc/mp was in the same class for cpu hackers as the 1802, 6100 (PDP8 in cmos), and a few others. A significant part of my collection and expeimentation is with SBC (Single or Small Board Computers). I have SBCs for 1802, SC/MP 8a/500, Nibble basic 8073 sc/mp, 6800, 6809, 6502 Kim-1, 6100 Intersil sampler, IMSAI IMP-48 an 8035 SBC, Ti9900 Technico Superstarter board, NEC TK80 (8080), several 8085, Z80, Z280 and Z8001 sbc of my design, and T-11 (a 40 pin dip pdp-11) homebrew. The only one I haven't played with is the 2650, 16032, 68000... yet. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 5 17:10:00 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:10:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: MFM/RLL In-Reply-To: "Phil Spanner" "Re: MFM/RLL" (Apr 5, 16:19) References: <002101c53a25$349c8100$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Message-ID: <10504052309.ZM999@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 5 2005, 16:19, Phil Spanner wrote: > Thought I wouold drop a note regarding the drives. Not only does BIOS need to be configured (usually by type) but my drives seem to need 2 cables??? > One floppy drive cable should not enable the controller to talk to the drives at all. Well, up to a point. The 34-way cable carries the control signals, such as the drive selects, head selects, step, write-enable, etc, and status signals such as ready, track zero, etc. The 20-way cable carries only the differential read and write data signals. Without that, of course, the controller will never see data from the drive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Apr 5 17:27:41 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 18:27:41 -0400 Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. In-Reply-To: <4252D966.2080706@oldskool.org> References: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> <4252D966.2080706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <425310DD.8060201@atarimuseum.com> I just checked it out, nothing happened on both Portfolio's I have... I would need to check the rev on the s/w & bios, perhaps you have an earlier release. Curt Jim Leonard wrote: > Phil&Cathy wrote: > >> If you do end a text file with a Space Return, a serious system error >> will occur when you load the file. This error will require you to >> remove the batteries from your computer, causing loss of all data >> from drive C: > > > Oh my sweet lord. That is collosal -- who programmed the text editor, > monkeys? What kind of stupid bug is that? Curt, have you heard of > this and was a fix ever released? -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.2 - Release Date: 4/5/2005 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 5 17:47:12 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 15:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <200504052218.j35MIPAU023141@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Adrian Graham" at Apr 05, 2005 11:18:51 PM Message-ID: <200504052247.j35MlCFF026228@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I have a 3000/300 that I had Tru64 ver. 5.0 install CDs for > > -- tho I'm not sure where they're packed currently... > > > > Would that work? > > It may be too much; back in the day the 3000-300LX was an OSF 1.3 machine > and it was quite speedy, though having said that my own 3000-300 came with > Tru64 4.0G CDs so 5.x could be OK. I've got easy access to 4.0x CDs if needs Somewhere around Tru64 V5.0 support was dropped for the Turbochannel graphics cards. I personally wouldn't describe a 3000-300LX as "quite speedy", I have one somewhere, and used it as a VMS server for quite a while. OTOH, it uses 72-pin True Parity SIMM's, rather than something proprietary, so it isn't a bad system. Zane From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 17:54:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:54:26 +0000 Subject: Paging Simon Webb (Museum of Computing) Message-ID: <1112741666.882.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone have a contact email address for him? I've gone and lost his address (d'oh!) cheers Jules From bkotaska at charter.net Tue Apr 5 18:13:27 2005 From: bkotaska at charter.net (Bill Kotaska) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:13:27 -0500 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! Message-ID: <001401c53a35$130e2920$0500a8c0@ath700> river wrote on Tue, 5 Apr 2005 >Does anyone else here build old stuff like this? Or do you build your own debug >and monitor software? Any experimenters/builders here? My answer is yes to all the above. I have many old processors and plan to put them all to use someday. I've done something similar to your SC/MP project with an Intel 4004. ( http://webpages.charter.net/bkotaska/mcs4_micro.htm ) Latest project is a redesign of the HP Programmable ROM Module for the HP-85 ( http://webpages.charter.net/bkotaska/prm85.htm ). Anything to make old computers (and chips) more useful! Bill From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 5 18:05:55 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:05:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. In-Reply-To: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Phil&Cathy wrote: > Imagine a product being released today with such brazen, data-destroying > bugs! Then, it was par for the course. Then? It's actually more par for the course today! I'd argue that software was actually more stable 15 years ago. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 18:08:55 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:08:55 +0100 Subject: Funny ebay auction Message-ID: <26c11a64050405160856b67527@mail.gmail.com> It made me laugh and it's on topic. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5181057334 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 18:10:10 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:10:10 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEH007UFXOY8V56@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: Brad Parker > > >Allison wrote: >> >>Brad did you buy a bare drive? > >yes, apparently I did :-) > >>If so you need the cab, power supply and both logic cards. > >So, it seems I need the 2 logic cards. All that for a floppy :-) > >thanks! Well err, yes! DEC did things a bit different as the RX01 dates to before the era of FDC chips. So what they did was encapsulate both the drive electronics and a full floppy data interface into the system. By doing that they also simplified stuff by way of consolidation that was both expensive at the time and power hungry. What that amounts to is the RX01 box is two dives and the interface and all that's needed in the system is a fancy {but cheap to design and build} parallel port to interface it to the bus. Very handy as the RX01 could be used with PDP-8, PDP11 both Unibus and Q-bus. As a result a nominal Sa800 drive is not even a close analoge to the complete RX01. So having the bare drive is like buying a car, well ok, the frame and transmission for one. Generally RX01 and RX02 drives sans the bus interface card are not hard to find. Don't ship it though, they weigh in around 50+ pounds! Whats a good replacement is DSD880s, those are RX01/02 work alike boxes that are a contoller, floppy and some models include a hard disk from 10 to 30mb in one case 6" high. Even then you need both the complete box and the bus interface card to match. Allison From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:11:08 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:11:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 82954A Message-ID: <20050405231108.29822.qmail@web25007.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Found another roll of 4.25" x 400' Black thermal paper and some DC100A tapes including an HP-85 Standard pac, 00085-13001. Will bundle with the other rolls. Collect or postage from the UK. Lee. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:11:26 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:11:26 +0100 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <200504052247.j35MlCFF026228@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200504052311.j35NB3pa024153@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 05 April 2005 23:47 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) > > Somewhere around Tru64 V5.0 support was dropped for the > Turbochannel graphics cards. Ah! > I personally wouldn't describe a 3000-300LX as "quite > speedy", I have one somewhere, and used it as a VMS server > for quite a while. OTOH, it uses 72-pin True Parity SIMM's, > rather than something proprietary, so it isn't a bad system. Compared to what I was using at the time it was very speedy indeed :) I have good memories of the 3000-300LX purely because that was the machine I taught myself OSF/1 on over the space of 5 weekends because the bloke who HAD been looking after these machines upped and left without much warning. Because of that I subjected myself to many DECstations and Ultrix 4.x stuff purely because I could, and that helped me with many things I still use today on the unix front. cheers a From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:14:54 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:14:54 +0100 Subject: Paging Simon Webb (Museum of Computing) In-Reply-To: <1112741666.882.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504052314.j35NET1w024225@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson > Sent: 05 April 2005 23:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Paging Simon Webb (Museum of Computing) > > > Anyone have a contact email address for him? I've gone and > lost his address (d'oh!) info at museum-of-computing.org.uk is all I've got; I thought I had Simon's personal address but it appears not :o\ cheers a From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 18:21:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:21:36 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEH00FL6Y809E46@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: Pete Turnbull >Your host adapter is little more than a parallel interface; it talks >over a 40-way ribbon cable (but less than half the pins are used) to >one of the boards on the RX02 unit which has a state machine to execute >various commands, and that board in turn connects via another ribbon >cable to the lower board, which has the amplifiers and so forth on it. > The head cables plug into this lower board. The state machine is a simple but programable non-von cpu that can do the needed tasks to execute complex command to seek, read or write a sector. The RX02 is a 2901based bitslice that does more as it has to do the needed tricks for DD format. An aside for CPU hackers, the core cpu of the RX01 processor is remarably simple and can execute 5 distinct microinstructions with a few variations. A varient of the same logical core was used to build the LA34 printer and LA120 and a similar design is in the LP26 DAFU. It was a fun project years ago building one and tweeking it to do a simple 8bit cpu. >AFAIK the drive mechanisms for an RX01 and RX02 are the same; only the >boards differ. Correct. The drive and power suppies are interchangable, The two boards are different for the 01/02 though mechanically interchangable. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 5 18:27:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:27:45 -0500 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050405182745.34d4e8f0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 09:03:58 -0400 Gary Sparkes wrote: > First off, if anyone ever needs some server space to just dump stuff, > I've got about a gig of space I can dish out for files and stuff, and > ~15 gigs of b/w a month for usage, over charges are negligable anyway, > so feel happy to have fun with whatever you upload (email me for info) > > Also, I've got an O2 with all sorts of goodies (loaded with ram, > analog a/v board, etc) but no drive sled! I check ebay often but > (unless I'm doing something stupid) I don't see any. > > Finally, does anyone have OS (Tru64 or else) that will run on a > 3000-300x? It's got 256 megs ram, and two internal 4.3's that I'm not > sure will actually work, but I've no way to test, anyone who knows > anything about this info I'd love to hear from you. > > Thanks! > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG - FM19t > > An O2 drive sled doesn't do anything electrical. The back end of the SCA hard drive plugs directly into the O2's circuitry. You might want to experiment with wooden shims and spacers. I have two O2's here, both of which arrived with no drive sled either. Then I got a drive and sled in the bottom of a box of junk (that also included a number of SGI keyboards and mice for the O2 (PS/2 type interface). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 17:56:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:56:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Apr 5, 5 04:03:53 pm Message-ID: > > On Apr 3, 2005 3:49 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > http://www.vintage.org/library.php > > Just want to voice out a thanks for putting this up. > Fantastic resource for wanabees collectors (like me) to flesh out our > fledgling classiccmp library.. What does it say about me if I have several hundred books on classic computing and not one off that list? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 17:58:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:58:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Removing Electrolytic cap residue In-Reply-To: <32891.64.169.63.74.1112687925.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 5, 5 00:58:45 am Message-ID: > I don't know, but my solution to this has been to replace the affected > motherboards. Those capacitors really are necessary for the board to > be reliable, as they are part of the power supply for the internal CPU > operating voltage. If some of them went bad, you can be pretty sure that > the rest will too, so they all need to be replaced. The local surplus > places have old motherboards for about $20; the cost of a set of new > capacitors is more than that. When I factor in my time to replace them, > it would even be cost-effective to buy a brand new motherboard. This assumes, though, that the capacitors on that replacement motherboard are of reasonable qulaity. Personally, I'd probably replace the capacitors anyway on any second-hand motherboard before they caused any problems. A handful of electrolytics are a lot cheaper than the time wasted and hassle casued if the machien fails at the wrong moment. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:04:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:04:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: <031701c539d6$848943a0$392e083d@river> from "river" at Apr 5, 5 09:56:34 pm Message-ID: > Does anyone else here build old stuff like this? Or do you build your = > own debug > and monitor software? Any experimenters/builders here? I used to do a lot of building.. Alas it's technically illegal now in the UK. The idiot government decided that the EU EMC directives should apply to 1-offs, prototypes, and experimental designs. Now I don't have a screened room to do the tests, I certainly can't predict the RF behaviour of one of my designs without doing the tests (and I don't think anyone else could either). Oh well... Fortunately this law doesn't seem to be enforced unless you deliberatley make a radio transmitter and use it to interfere with something. More serious is the fact that getting the necessary chips are getting very hard to get now. More modern 'replacements' seem to come either in difficult-to-handle BGA packages (SMD is not a worry for me) or need expensive programmings tools. Fortunately my junk box is still well stocked bujt that won't last for ever. YEs, I still build stuff. Mostly interfaces, add-ons, little microcontroller boards, etc. I guess I should build a complete computer system again, just for fun... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:15:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:15:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. In-Reply-To: <16978.57931.577654.120015@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Apr 5, 5 03:08:59 pm Message-ID: > > >>>>> "Phil&Cathy" == Phil&Cathy writes: > > Phil&Cathy> I was lucky enough today to score an as-new Atari > Phil&Cathy> Portfolio. In the box was the following "OWNER'S MANUAL > Phil&Cathy> ADDENDUM": (All caps as per original) > > Phil&Cathy> USER WARNING: > > Phil&Cathy> 1. DO NOT END A DOCUMENT IN THE TEXT EDITOR WITH A Space > Phil&Cathy> FOLLOWED BY A Return. ... > > Phil&Cathy> Imagine a product being released today with such brazen, > Phil&Cathy> data-destroying bugs! Then, it was par for the > Phil&Cathy> course. > > Maybe it was for Atari, but not for real companies. Well, the first relase of the HP49G firmware had many more bugs -- and serious bugs -- than that. Not bugs that would necessarily lose data, but certainly bugs that caused the calculator to give totally bogus answers... Things like multiplying a real vector by a real matrix would lock the machine up (!), claiming that 1 is a prime number, and so on. That was in 1999 from what should have been a 'real company'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:16:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:16:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/45 Display register. In-Reply-To: <00a301c53a16$59f13a40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 5, 5 08:33:31 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > A quick question raised by my ongoing work.... > > Is it possible to write directly to the "display register" - the one YEs, it certainly is. I've done it many times. > accessed by one position of the data switch. I think it should be at memory > location 777570, but I can't get data into it, either using deposit from the > console, or moving data under program control. I can't rememebr if you can deposit to it from the console, you can certainly write to it from a program. The address is the same as the one you read to read the state of the switches -- 777570 sounds right. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:19:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:19:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <4252EC1F.8040402@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 5, 5 02:50:55 pm Message-ID: > > Marvin Johnston wrote: > > A terminator is also required at the last drive in the chain. Assuming > > you are using just one drive, not having the terminator installed would > > probably cause the drive not to work properly. > > Isn't that only a requirement of SCSI drives? I certainly don't have any > terminators on my MFM/RLL drives... Noo, ST506/ST412 interfaced drives need a terminator too. It's normally a resistor pack (either DIL or SIL) that is pluged into a socket on the last drive on the cable. Most ex-PC drives have it fitted anyway. IIRC, drives from IBM came with it installed, if you fitted the drive as the second drive in a machine (which was the one closer to the controller on an IBM twisted hard-drive cable), you pulled the terminator and sellotaped it to the side of the drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 5 18:22:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:22:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <200504052110.j35LAsxb017184@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Apr 5, 5 05:10:53 pm Message-ID: > I assume to make this work I need an electronics card on the RX01 drive > itself. The drive has what looks like mounting holes for a PCB and I > the RX11 is way too simple so I assume there is something which bolts > onto the RX01 drive. And a ribbon cable between them. And a power > supply :-) > Do you just have the bare drive mechanism, then? The RX01 unit contains 2 of these drives bolted under the chassis using the holes you thought were to mount a PCB. On top of the chassis there's a read/write PCB which all the cables from both drives plug into. There's also a PCU mounted behind it. On top of the read/write board there's another PCB stuffed with digital electronics which is the controller itseld. And finally, there's a fan and air plenum mounted on the back of the 2 drives... Sounds like you have rather a lot to find. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 5 18:50:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 16:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Apr 3, 2005 3:49 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > http://www.vintage.org/library.php > > > > Just want to voice out a thanks for putting this up. > > Fantastic resource for wanabees collectors (like me) to flesh out our > > fledgling classiccmp library.. > > What does it say about me if I have several hundred books on classic > computing and not one off that list? It says most of your books are technical in nature whereas these books tell stories. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 5 18:51:06 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:51:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Funny ebay auction In-Reply-To: Dan Williams "Funny ebay auction" (Apr 6, 0:08) References: <26c11a64050405160856b67527@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <10504060051.ZM1334@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 6 2005, 0:08, Dan Williams wrote: > It made me laugh and it's on topic. > > item=5181057334 Looks like I'm sitting on a potential fortune, then :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 5 18:53:25 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:53:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: Allison "Re: rx01 w/o controller board" (Apr 5, 19:21) References: <0IEH00FL6Y809E46@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <10504060053.ZM1353@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 5 2005, 19:21, Allison wrote: > The state machine is a simple but programable non-von cpu that can do > the needed tasks to execute complex command to seek, read or write > a sector. The RX02 is a 2901based bitslice that does more as it > has to do the needed tricks for DD format. Ah yes, I'd forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me where I'd seen another 2901! Welcome back, by the way :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 5 19:02:57 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 17:02:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 05, 2005 11:56:26 PM Message-ID: <200504060002.j3602vV8028560@onyx.spiritone.com> > > On Apr 3, 2005 3:49 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > http://www.vintage.org/library.php > > > > Just want to voice out a thanks for putting this up. > > Fantastic resource for wanabees collectors (like me) to flesh out our > > fledgling classiccmp library.. > > What does it say about me if I have several hundred books on classic > computing and not one off that list? > > -tony That you have a far more useful library. I've also got several hundred books on classic computing, and only one of them is on that list. Personally I'd rather have books that explain how to use or work on the hardware and software. Zane From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Apr 5 19:07:17 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:07:17 +0100 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <004301c53a3c$99905930$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Tony Duell wrote: > I used to do a lot of building.. Alas it's technically illegal > now in the UK. The idiot government decided that the EU EMC > directives should apply to 1-offs, prototypes, and > experimental designs. I expect that is an overly strict interpretation of the law. Cretainly you cannot go around causing interference, but protos just get built at work (or at least parts of them do) and we have no on-site screened facilities either. I seriously doubt that we are unique. > Oh well... Fortunately this law > doesn't seem to be enforced unless you deliberatley make a > radio transmitter and use it to interfere with something. I think you have misinterpreted the law. The number of electronic-project-building magazines on the newsagents' shelves has dropped somewhat, but they are still there and if they were blatantly encouraging illegal activity I would expect them to have had a much harder time of it. Some of them are still doing mains-powered projects. (I was going to add "SHOCK, horror" here, but I thought better of it). > More serious is the fact that getting the necessary chips are > getting very hard to get now. More modern 'replacements' seem > to come either in difficult-to-handle BGA packages (SMD is not > a worry for me) or need expensive programmings tools. > Fortunately my junk box is still well stocked bujt that won't > last for ever. I have a reasonable stock of resistors, capacitors, diodes and common transistors. But on those occasions when I have gone looking, I don't recall experiencing much difficulty. I supposed I ought to try picking up a late 80s edition of PE or ETI and seeing how many semiconductors are still available via net these days. Now if you want replacement VAX chips or maybe HD6120s, then I would expect some initial difficulties ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 5 19:11:30 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:11:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: New book Message-ID: <20050406001131.38929.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > http://www.vintage.org/library.php > This is a new "library" feature I'm adding to the VCF website. It > includes books, videos, and books on cassette, all on computer history > subjects. 99.9% link to the Amazon page where you can place an order > for convenience. > Suggestions always welcome. How about listing the ISBN with the book titles, it would make requesting the book at the library a little easier. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 5 19:43:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 19:43:04 -0500 Subject: Kevin Stumpf? Message-ID: <005501c53a41$9853ef50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Does anyone know of a way I could contact Kevin Stumpf? If so, please email me off-list Thanks! Jay West From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 5 19:29:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:29:58 -0400 Subject: HP9133 user guide...? In-Reply-To: <4251E133.4B7CAB44@mindspring.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050402172421.00b0d310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200504022341.j32NfYWD074978@lots.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050405202958.00b3ba40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hey Steve, How about letting the rest of us in on the secret of how to do it! BTW just got a "new" ICS GP-IB analyzer that I need to try out. It appears to work the same as the HPs but it's packaged differently and it's alot easier to use. BTW II. Just picked up a STD bus system today made by Octagon Systems. This thing kicks ass! 9 MHz 64180 CPU, built-in EPROM burner, 3 serial interfaces, parallel interface, keyboard interface, Analog input and output interfaces, uses EPROM, NVRAM or EEPROM and more! Also got the manual for it, several IO cables, chassis, PSU and a Data Aquisition card. Joe At 08:52 PM 4/4/05 -0400, you wrote: >> At least some CS/80 discs support the CS/80 low-level initialization >> command. It's generally not clear how to do this, but if you go trawl >> Google Groups for "mediainit vGD" you may find a transcript of how I >> got HP-UX 7.05 to low-level format a 7946 disc so long ago that it's >> on topic. > >The documentation does specify a "Format" command for CS-80 devices. I >have used a bus system analyzer to format a number of drives this way. I >don't recall formatting a 9133 but, I would be very suprised if it >didn't work the same way. I have a HP9134 sitting here that was >formatted last month using the analyzer. The command sequences are very >unforgiving so doing it with an analyzer takes a LOT of patience! > >See yas, >SteveRob > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 5 20:14:27 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 19:14:27 -0600 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: <004301c53a3c$99905930$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <004301c53a3c$99905930$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <425337F3.4090809@jetnet.ab.ca> Antonio Carlini wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: > > >>I used to do a lot of building.. Alas it's technically illegal >>now in the UK. The idiot government decided that the EU EMC >>directives should apply to 1-offs, prototypes, and >>experimental designs. >> >> > >I expect that is an overly strict interpretation of the law. >Cretainly you cannot go around causing interference, but protos >just get built at work (or at least parts of them do) and we >have no on-site screened facilities either. I seriously doubt >that we are unique. > > So do I need to wear my foil hat or not? Also just what are people building as projects? Most stuff you find in a magizine is just crap to build? Ben alias woodelf From damosan at comcast.net Tue Apr 5 20:29:30 2005 From: damosan at comcast.net (Damond Walker) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:29:30 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <200504052247.j35MlCFF026228@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <52ACE2F8-A63B-11D9-8AA4-00039387D862@comcast.net> On Tuesday, April 5, 2005, at 06:47 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I personally wouldn't describe a 3000-300LX as "quite speedy" ... "quite speedy" is quite relative. ;) Damo From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 5 20:33:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:33:21 -0400 Subject: Need "Cambasic" manual for Octagon Systems SBC Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050405213321.009705f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have a manual for Cambasic or manuals for any of the Octagon Systems boards? Joe From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 5 20:49:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: <200504060002.j3602vV8028560@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Apr 3, 2005 3:49 AM, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > http://www.vintage.org/library.php > > > > > > Just want to voice out a thanks for putting this up. > > > Fantastic resource for wanabees collectors (like me) to flesh out our > > > fledgling classiccmp library.. > > > > What does it say about me if I have several hundred books on classic > > computing and not one off that list? > > > > -tony > > That you have a far more useful library. I've also got several hundred > books on classic computing, and only one of them is on that list. > Personally I'd rather have books that explain how to use or work on the > hardware and software. Such nerds. If someone wants to take the time to compile a list of every vintage technical computer book ever printed then please, by all means do so. In case it wasn't obvious, the library I put together is for people doing research into the history of computing, or who are entertained by computer history in general. If you want to find technical books there are already plenty of excellent search engines for that. Knock yourselves out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 5 20:50:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 18:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: <20050406001131.38929.qmail@web25005.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, lee davison wrote: > > http://www.vintage.org/library.php > > > This is a new "library" feature I'm adding to the VCF website. It > > includes books, videos, and books on cassette, all on computer > history > > subjects. 99.9% link to the Amazon page where you can place an order > > for convenience. > > > Suggestions always welcome. > > How about listing the ISBN with the book titles, it would > make requesting the book at the library a little easier. Good idea. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 5 20:54:53 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:54:53 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4253416D.1090307@mdrconsult.com> Gary Sparkes wrote: > First off, if anyone ever needs some server space to just dump stuff, I've > got about a gig of space I can dish out for files and stuff, and ~15 gigs of > b/w a month for usage, over charges are negligable anyway, so feel happy to > have fun with whatever you upload (email me for info) > > Also, I've got an O2 with all sorts of goodies (loaded with ram, analog a/v > board, etc) but no drive sled! I check ebay often but (unless I'm doing > something stupid) I don't see any. www.reputable.com generally has them. The sleds I've seen on ePay generally have disks on them and go for stupid money. Reputable will probably end up being cheaper. Doc From liste at artware.qc.ca Tue Apr 5 20:59:00 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: Looking around the local salvation army, I spotted a LaserWriter plus. I've searched the archives and discovered it's a PostScript enabled laser printer with RS-442 interface. It seems. No disucssion of the "plus" specifically. If it helps, there was a DB-25, a DE-9 and small (4? 6?) dip switch on the back (that I remember, I don't remember any mini-DIN). I'd be interested in having a "real" postscript printer. But I'd like to test it before buying. - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? - Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd assume so. - Is toner readily available? Also, there was an ImageWriter II if anyone wants one. Thank you, -Philip From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 21:17:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:17:37 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005 9:59 PM, liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: > Looking around the local salvation army, I spotted a LaserWriter plus. > I've searched the archives and discovered it's a PostScript enabled laser > printer with RS-442 interface. It seems. No disucssion of the "plus" > specifically. The 'plus' is a ROM upgrade from the plain-old Apple LaserWriter... more fonts, and slightly different firmware. > If it helps, there was a DB-25, a DE-9 and small (4? 6?) > dip switch on the back (that I remember, I don't remember any mini-DIN). Nope... no mini-DIN. The DE-9 is the AppleTalk interface (like 512K Macs). The DB-25 is for ordinary serial devices so that, IIRC, one can blow ASCII at it and the LW+ intereprets it as, I think, a Diablo daisywheel printer, courier only, etc. I _think_ there's a way to emit PostScript at the DB25, but it's not going to be a speedy interface. The printer was primarily developed for Mac use on AppleTalk/LocalTalk > I'd be interested in having a "real" postscript printer. But I'd like to > test it before buying. One could take a Palm and a travel cable and DE9-DB252 adapter and run a VT100 app and blow chars at the DB25 port... > - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? Does it not print a test page at power-on? I think what my mom used to do at work was power hers on with the paper tray removed to _not_ get a test print (and waste the paper). > - Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd > assume so. Yes, the DB25 is RS-232, but there may be a protocol issue there (raw ASCII vs PS). > - Is toner readily available? Can't recall what engine it uses, but it's one of the older Canon(?) ones. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 5 22:07:48 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 22:07:48 -0500 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <4253416D.1090307@mdrconsult.com> References: <4253416D.1090307@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050405220748.2de7ddae.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 21:54:53 -0400 Doc Shipley wrote: > Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > First off, if anyone ever needs some server space to just dump > > stuff, I've got about a gig of space I can dish out for files and > > stuff, and ~15 gigs of b/w a month for usage, over charges are > > negligable anyway, so feel happy to have fun with whatever you > > upload (email me for info) > > > > Also, I've got an O2 with all sorts of goodies (loaded with ram, > > analog a/v board, etc) but no drive sled! I check ebay often but > > (unless I'm doing something stupid) I don't see any. > > www.reputable.com generally has them. The sleds I've seen on ePay > generally have disks on them and go for stupid money. Reputable will > probably end up being cheaper. > > I looked. reputable.com wants $85 for a bare O2 sled. That's a little wedge of plastic with a tricky lever on it. Ouch. I paid $20 for each for my O2's (missing the sled.) Those are legitimate prices for SGI hardware, for business use. But we're hobbyists here. O2 sleds on eBay don't get bid up that high in my observation, btw. From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 5 22:12:49 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:12:49 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <20050405220748.2de7ddae.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <4253416D.1090307@mdrconsult.com> <20050405220748.2de7ddae.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <425353B1.3060805@mdrconsult.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > I looked. reputable.com wants $85 for a bare O2 sled. That's a little > wedge of plastic with a tricky lever on it. Ouch. I paid $20 for each > for my O2's (missing the sled.) Holy crap. I paid $25 for one about 2 months ago. Never mind.... ;) Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 5 22:27:36 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504060331.XAA18489@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Finally, does anyone have OS (Tru64 or else) that will run on a > 3000-300x? Doesn't NetBSD/alpha support the 3000-300X? The port-alpha supported models page (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/alpha/models.html) certainly seems to think so. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From James at jdfogg.com Tue Apr 5 22:52:55 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:52:55 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2ED1@sbs.jdfogg.com> > - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? On laserjets you can hold down the online button while powering up the printer. Hold until it starts to print and it provides a status page and a graphics test page. Give it a try. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 5 22:52:55 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:52:55 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEI007NEAS58AP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: Pete Turnbull Another place where there is a sea of 2901s is the FPU for the 11/23b. I have one of those too. >Welcome back, by the way :-) Glad to be back. Spent 5 years working for a firm that makes P-RTDs as their sole IS/Net/Server/DB/engineer person and was plain too busy for life until.. they sold it. Now I have way too much time till I get mixed up in something else hairbrained. Still have VAXen, PDP-11s, PDP-8s, and a raft of S100 hardware. I plan to put a T-11 in a smallbox with a 640x480 mono lcd and keyboard and run RT11 on batteries with it. I be tired of washin winders. Allison KB1GMX VHF/UHF and out there. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 22:54:37 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:54:37 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2ED1@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2ED1@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005 11:52 PM, James Fogg wrote: > > - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? > > On laserjets you can hold down the online button while powering up the > printer. Hold until it starts to print and it provides a status page and > a graphics test page. Give it a try. There are no buttons on an Apple LaserWriter (Plus). Buttons are an HP LaserJet thing. -ethan From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 23:14:17 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:14:17 +0800 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050405160630.0489a380@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050405160630.0489a380@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Nope. Turbochannel support was dropped from Tru64 v5.0 onwards, so the last version to support TC systems is DigitalUnix v4.0g. NetBSD also runs on the DEC3000 series, and to a (much) lesser extent, Linux. On Apr 6, 2005 4:08 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I have a 3000/300 that I had Tru64 ver. 5.0 install CDs for -- tho I'm not > sure where they're packed currently... From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Apr 5 23:18:04 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:18:04 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2s available in OK Message-ID: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> I got the following via email over the weekend: "I have three 3b2 machines grathering dust. This includes many loose-leaf binders of 3b stuff, and SCSI drives,also, many Tapes; some with Informix SE & SQL sofeware. I am not able to ship this equipment(you got'ta pick it up), but it's free. I am a retired electronics tech, who spends much time doing PC recording of VINYL's" Everything is in Oklahoma City, OK. Contact Raymond at raymondNOSPAM at NOSPAMnaturesong.com for more details, removing the obvious. Best of luck! -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From cb at mythtech.net Tue Apr 5 23:20:52 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:20:52 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: >- Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? Provided the dip switches have not been changed, then just power it up, it will print a status page that tells what language it is set to use, what port, and the page count. (IIRC, one of the dip switches can disable this test page at power on) >- Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd >assume so. Yes over the DB25, but it tops out at 9600 bps, so it is SLOW to print. >- Is toner readily available? Yes, same toner as used in the HP LJ 1, 2, 3 as well as Apple LaserWriter, Plus, SC, II, IInt (and all the other printers based on the Canon SX engine). Last time I bought one, they were going for around $45 for a 6000 page cart. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 5 23:43:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 21:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <0IEI007NEAS58AP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Apr 2005, Allison wrote: > Glad to be back. Spent 5 years working for a firm that makes > P-RTDs as their sole IS/Net/Server/DB/engineer person and was > plain too busy for life until.. they sold it. Now I have way > too much time till I get mixed up in something else hairbrained. It's good to have you back, Allison. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 5 23:48:16 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2005 23:48:16 -0500 Subject: New book References: <200504060002.j3602vV8028560@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <01e901c53a63$da861200$63406b43@66067007> See below. ---- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: New book >> > On Apr 3, 2005 3:49 AM, Vintage Computer Festival >> > wrote: >> > > http://www.vintage.org/library.php >> > >> > Just want to voice out a thanks for putting this up. >> > Fantastic resource for wanabees collectors (like me) to flesh out our >> > fledgling classiccmp library.. >> >> What does it say about me if I have several hundred books on classic >> computing and not one off that list? >> >> -tony > > That you have a far more useful library. I've also got several hundred > books on classic computing, and only one of them is on that list. > Personally I'd rather have books that explain how to use or work on the > hardware and software. > > Zane > Both types of libraries are useful not one better than the other. For someone like myself with a museum Sellam's list is a great startup list of historical books for research. I found that I had several of the books on the list and lots that I do not have yet. I also have many books that are not on the list and I may have to send a list to Sellam for him to add. My two cents- John From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 6 00:13:25 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 00:13:25 -0500 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42536FF5.2030602@oldskool.org> chris wrote: > Yes over the DB25, but it tops out at 9600 bps, so it is SLOW to print. Agreed. But that's what I love about PostScript printers: Ironically, with that slow a transport, non-bitmapped (ie. vector/line only) graphics would print at the same speed (or faster!) than text. I've had a PS printer for a decade (Laserjet 4ML, the thing is a tank) and just love it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 00:39:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:39:58 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <0IEI007NEAS58AP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IEI007NEAS58AP6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005 11:52 PM, Allison wrote: > I plan to put a T-11 in a smallbox with a 640x480 mono lcd > and keyboard and run RT11 on batteries with it. I be tired > of washin winders. Nice... I noticed your LCD questions elsewhere... I have similar dreams, but with an SBC6120 at the middle of everything. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 01:03:35 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:03:35 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <200504051807.j35I7ANL008986@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504051807.j35I7ANL008986@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005 2:07 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > Silly me, I bid on an RX01 on ebay, hoping it had a controller card. > Naturally it's just the drive. It has a nice Digital sticker on the side > and seems dirty but mechanically sound and the head looks ok. I don't know if I have the right auction, but I did go back over 'rx01' in completed auctions and saw a couple completed ones for what is depicted as the drive mech only... if one of them is you, what you have is a small part of an RX01/RX02 drive subsystem... the parts I've broken them down to (for cleaning, etc.) is a pair of drive mechs (like it seems you have), two large circuit boards, a PSU, a fan and duct assembly, and a frame that all these other elements mount on. This frame is not used when one is mounting drives in a DECmate I pedestal, but for rack-mount or tabletop mounting, there _is_ a steel frame. One does not _need_ the frame, strictly speaking, but it does have all the right standoffs for the board set, the hinge (the top board swings up and out of the way of the lower board), and screw holes for everything else. Someone like me might put what you have to use (I have an RX01 down to one drive because the bearings seized up on one of the drive motors), but you need a lot of pieces to turn what you have into a working drive. If you _do_ score the boards, etc., you might be interested to note that DEC _did_ sell single-drive versions of the RX01 (and possibly the RX02), but I gather they weren't particularly popular, since most floppy systems tended to have one boot floppy and one open floppy for random data disks. The RX01 inside a VAX-11/780 was one notable exception, as the particular application (console processor) didn't need more than one drive to do its job. Good luck with putting something together, but my personal opinion is that you have purchased spare parts for a complete drive you'll find later. Perhaps you'll get lucky and find a cheap single-drive RX01 or RX02 and be able to mount what you have now and plug it in and turn it into a dual-drive system. -ethan From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 6 01:12:49 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 01:12:49 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... Message-ID: <200504060112.49864.pat@computer-refuge.org> A set of manuals? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5181524752 No, guess again. There's a reserve on those. Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make people think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. Sigh. I usually wouldn't post something like this to the list, but I just can't believe that someone would try to sell *manuals* that look like they're not even in great shape for that sort of price.. And my favorite quote from his auction: "most of these system were destroyed due to the nature/technology of the system and fear of them getting into the wrong hands" DONT LET THE TERRISTS GET THER HANDS ON TEH BIG COMPOOTERS!!! I'd love to see these people do a little bit of research on stuff they're listing on ebay, instead of just pulling info out of their ass, or what they heard on some cable news network. At the very least, they could say "I don't know anything about this" instead of making stuff up.... Ok, I'm done ranting for tonight. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 01:23:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:23:59 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <42536FF5.2030602@oldskool.org> References: <42536FF5.2030602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2005 1:13 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Agreed. But that's what I love about PostScript printers: Ironically, with > that slow a transport, non-bitmapped (ie. vector/line only) graphics would > print at the same speed (or faster!) than text. Unfortunately, most programs these days force-feed *wads* of font info, etc, making PS emissions *huge*. > I've had a PS printer for a decade (Laserjet 4ML, the thing is a tank) and just love it. That was _my_ first PS printer as well... bought it as a pre-release with a $300 pre-order discount so it was just over a grand. It's still the primary printer at the house, on, I think, its 3rd cart since new. It's *stingy* with toner! I used to have its LocalTalk port hooked up to an Amiga 3000 with an A-Max board so I could drive it from an emulated Mac (worked *perfectly* for all Mac apps), and the parallel port hooked up to another Amiga. Lately, though, it's just another winders printer. :-( As far as I'm concerned, it's a great printer. I only replaced it on my server when I picked up a LaserJet IIIsi w/PostScript cart for $15 at the local Uni surplus (then spent an additional $30 on transfer pads and rollers to make it pick paper correctly). -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 01:38:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 02:38:09 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B2s available in OK In-Reply-To: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> References: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: On a similar note, I just ran across what used to be a 3B2 (stripped before I got it), and is now just the bottom tray and a PSU. If anyone is looking for a 3B2 PSU, contact me off-list and I can go see what model. I'm just looking for shipping and a couple bucks for the box and gas to UPS/FedEx. (I doubt anyone wants the bottom of the enclosure) -ethan From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Apr 6 02:18:43 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 05 07:18:43 GMT Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0504060718.AA23685@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Pete Turnbull wrote (to Allison): > Welcome back, by the way :-) I second that! Allison, you might remember me... :-) It's been 7 years... Welcome back, it's a lot of joy to see you online again! :-) Michael Sokolov http://ivan.Harhan.ORG/~msokolov/ From n8uhn at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 02:36:02 2005 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 00:36:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <200504051703.j35H2Bkc018019@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050406073603.63159.qmail@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hmm, He states "i am useing a floppy cable with a twist in it and a 20 pin data cable." hard drives did not use a twisted cable on them. the used a 34 pin (data) and a 20 pin(control) streight thru cable(s. Bill __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Apr 6 03:50:02 2005 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:50:02 +0200 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBC@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Hi Brad, the connection from the controller board (UNIBUS or QBUS) is a straight cable AFAIK. The RX01 and RX02 exist as a table top box and uses a DB25 connector to the controller. If you want to make a complete RX01 drive, the first thing to check is the *bottom*. Since many parts have been removed for perhaps completing other drives, check if the drive belt is still there on each drive! The RX01/RX02 drives have *two* boards mounted on top of the disk drives and they cover bothe drives, so they are not smallish. Tony gave (as usual) a good description. I was surprised to read that the two boards are somehow matched. That is a pity because I have two *sets*, and since one board has a rather high connector (relative to the other components on that board, and the other board is a bit smaller, I have put those two boards together. So there is a chance that they are kept as a set togethre but I am not 100% sure. I have also a complete power supply, but it is wired for Europe, that is, it is set for 230/240 VAC 50 Hz. I don't know if there are taps on the transformer to make it work at 110 V. Neither if it can cope with 60 Hz. And I have also the fan and air plenum that is mounted on the back of the drives ... > Sounds like you have rather a lot to find. > > -tony Well, it looks that I have all what you need. I stripped an RX01 just a few weeks ago, and the only parts that I threw away is the metal front (heavily scratched) and the metal frame on which all is mounted). Small problem though, the power supply is heavy ... and I live in The Netherlands ! BTW, I do not have spare belts :~) - Henk, PA8PDP. From Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk Wed Apr 6 07:43:34 2005 From: Bob.Adamson at sli-institute.ac.uk (Bob Adamson) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:43:34 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 QBOL or DIBOL Message-ID: <7D7A68F7F09DAE40AE47E55F7F601D8B3BD8E4@SLISERVER21.sli-institute.ac.uk> Does anyone have PDP-8 DIBOL software? Also QBOL or DIBOL documentation? Bob Adamson From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 6 08:40:02 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:40:02 -0500 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBC@gd-mail03.oce.nl> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBC@gd-mail03.oce.nl> Message-ID: <200504060840.02443.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 03:50, Gooijen H wrote: > Hi Brad, > > the connection from the controller board (UNIBUS or QBUS) is a > straight cable AFAIK. The RX01 and RX02 exist as a table top box and > uses a DB25 connector to the controller. Not all RX01's have a DB25 to connect to the controller, on the ones I recovered with an 11/23 system (rackmount drives), there's just a ribbon cable connecting the two berg connectors on the controller and drive together. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wacarder at usit.net Wed Apr 6 08:49:28 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:49:28 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBC@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <200504060840.02443.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <000601c53aaf$747aa650$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > the connection from the controller board (UNIBUS or QBUS) is a > > straight cable AFAIK. The RX01 and RX02 exist as a table top box and > > uses a DB25 connector to the controller. > > Not all RX01's have a DB25 to connect to the controller, on the ones I > recovered with an 11/23 system (rackmount drives), there's just a > ribbon cable connecting the two berg connectors on the controller and > drive together. > > Pat I believe that the DB25 is only used on the tabletop version, which has the usual rack-mount RX01/RX02 mounted inside a nice tabletop box. Inside the box the ribbon cable coming from the RX01/RX02 boards connects to an adapter that converts it to a DB25 connector. I have a tabletop RX01, but I removed it from the tabletop case and mounted it in an H960 rack. Ashley From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 6 09:01:36 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 07:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504060112.49864.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > A set of manuals? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5181524752 > > No, guess again. There's a reserve on those. > > Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make people > think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. I don't know that we can go blaming Christie's for every over-priced eBay manual we see from now on (though it may make us feel better to do so ;) > And my favorite quote from his auction: > "most of these system were destroyed due to the nature/technology of the > system and fear of them getting into the wrong hands" > > DONT LET THE TERRISTS GET THER HANDS ON TEH BIG COMPOOTERS!!! > > I'd love to see these people do a little bit of research on stuff > they're listing on ebay, instead of just pulling info out of their ass, > or what they heard on some cable news network. At the very least, they > could say "I don't know anything about this" instead of making stuff > up.... I think these are the same people that were trying to sell the actual computer a few weeks ago and were asking for an unlikely sum for that too. Even though I explained to them a couple times they should be happy if someone offers to take it away without charging them, they still insisted on finding a buyer. Duh. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 6 09:10:24 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 09:10:24 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504060910.24406.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 09:01, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > A set of manuals? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5181524752 > > > > No, guess again. There's a reserve on those. > > > > Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make > > people think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. > > I don't know that we can go blaming Christie's for every over-priced > eBay manual we see from now on (though it may make us feel better to > do so ;) Well, they mentioned Christie's in the auction, which is why I associated the two together... > > And my favorite quote from his auction: > > "most of these system were destroyed due to the nature/technology > > of the system and fear of them getting into the wrong hands" > > > > DONT LET THE TERRISTS GET THER HANDS ON TEH BIG COMPOOTERS!!! > > > > I'd love to see these people do a little bit of research on stuff > > they're listing on ebay, instead of just pulling info out of their > > ass, or what they heard on some cable news network. At the very > > least, they could say "I don't know anything about this" instead of > > making stuff up.... > > I think these are the same people that were trying to sell the actual > computer a few weeks ago and were asking for an unlikely sum for that > too. Even though I explained to them a couple times they should be > happy if someone offers to take it away without charging them, they > still insisted on finding a buyer. Duh. I wonder if that quote I pasted above (assuming the same seller, which seems likely) indicates that they finally ended up scrapping the system. It'd be sad, but with some people, it seems sanity is quite a ways off... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Apr 6 09:14:50 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:14:50 -0400 Subject: AppleTalk & CAP In-Reply-To: <200504051759.j35Hxhr6007786@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504051759.j35Hxhr6007786@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <4253EEDA.3010809@woh.rr.com> Brad Parker wrote: >David Holland wrote: > > >>Has anyone done anything w/ CAP and Apple IIgs's lately, and have any >>good guesses why files created on the Unix "share" (from the GS of >>course) appear to loose their filetypes? The .finderinfo, >>and .resource directories are there, and clean, but CAP appears to be >>storing the wrong data in .finderinfo. >> >> > >Just curious, but is this old data or new data, i.e. are you creating >new file that "loose" their finderinfo between sessions? > > It files "loose" their .finderinfo as soon as they hit the AppleShare. Doesn't matter if I'm copying from the floppy, or saving a new file directly to the share. I suspect its a bug in aufs somewhere, but haven't had time to go through it with the debugger. (Which is why I posted here, to see if anyone else ran across it.) I see a "hack" in the code to handle ProDOS filetypes, I've a feeling they might be being written correctly, but not read back correctly. (see previous debugger/lack of time comments) >I'm suprised to here linux/netatalk only do phase 2. I guess that's >progress. > > Limitation of the kernel drivers. >I know a little about macs but never used AFP with a IIgs. > >-brad > > Thanks, its all new territory for me as well. David From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 6 09:23:46 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:23:46 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: <200504060112.49864.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050406091333.04bada18@mail> At 09:01 AM 4/6/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >I think these are the same people that were trying to sell the actual >computer a few weeks ago and were asking for an unlikely sum for that too. >Even though I explained to them a couple times they should be happy if >someone offers to take it away without charging them, they still insisted >on finding a buyer. Duh. And that's their right, of course. It's one thing for dupes / dopes to list the near-worthless items at high starting prices. eBay wins again - come on, Dad, buy three more balls for $5, I'm sure you can hit it this time. It's another for what collectors might regard as near-worthless items to sell for high prices. The latter is more interesting to me. What, people are opposed to more recognition and more preservation when it comes along with higher prices? When will we get an episode of Antiques Roadshow with old computers? Invite them to the VCF. - John "The only way to comprehend what mathematicians mean by Infinity is to contemplate the extent of human stupidity." -- Voltaire "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe." -- Albert Einstein "The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison "There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life." -- Frank Zappa "There are more fools in the world than there are people." -- Heinrich Heine "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity." -- Robert Heinlein From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 6 09:32:46 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:32:46 -0400 (edt) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050406091333.04bada18@mail> from "John Foust" at Apr 6, 05 09:23:46 am Message-ID: <200504061432.KAA24863@wordstock.com> And thusly John Foust spake: > > It's another for what collectors might regard as near-worthless items to > sell for high prices. The latter is more interesting to me. What, > people are opposed to more recognition and more preservation > when it comes along with higher prices? When will we get an episode > of Antiques Roadshow with old computers? Invite them to the VCF. > It already been done - a few years ago the Atari 2600 and a bunch of rare games were featured on the Antiques Roadshow... Cheers, Bryan Pope From rimmer at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 5 15:07:22 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:07:22 +0200 Subject: Digital VAX Rdb/VMS books Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050405220521.034115b0@pop.xs4all.nl> Anybody here interested in a bunch of Digital VAX Rdb/VMS books ? Quite a few are still sealed. I prefer to sell them because I need the space and could use any extra money but I am willing to swap them for something else or perhaps even give them to someone for just the postage. Cheers, Stefan. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 6 09:57:05 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:57:05 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEJ00BDK5IXWJY6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: Ethan Dicks > >On Apr 5, 2005 11:52 PM, Allison wrote: >> I plan to put a T-11 in a smallbox with a 640x480 mono lcd >> and keyboard and run RT11 on batteries with it. I be tired >> of washin winders. > >Nice... I noticed your LCD questions elsewhere... I have similar >dreams, but with an SBC6120 at the middle of everything. > >-ethan Hi there! Actually the diplay system is the first priority as the likely cpu could be T-11, Z80, Z280, 1802 or even 6120. One possible display solution I tripped across is there are car TVs or at least the LCD video monitors that could accept componenet or RS170 video. From what I've seen these are getting down there in cost for the 6-8" sizes. Back to the days of VDM1, and TVT6 type display systems in a whole new way and possibly cheap too. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 6 10:04:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 11:04:42 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board Message-ID: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: rx01 w/o controller board > From: Patrick Finnegan >On Wednesday 06 April 2005 03:50, Gooijen H wrote: >> Hi Brad, >> >> the connection from the controller board (UNIBUS or QBUS) is a >> straight cable AFAIK. The RX01 and RX02 exist as a table top box and >> uses a DB25 connector to the controller. > >Not all RX01's have a DB25 to connect to the controller, on the ones I >recovered with an 11/23 system (rackmount drives), there's just a >ribbon cable connecting the two berg connectors on the controller and >drive together. The ones with DB25 were used with Decmate-1 all others only had a ribbon cable exiting the box at a bracket to support the cable. the DECmate-1 version FYI still has the same baords and cable hookup internally so it is usable with any system (after setting internal dipswitch). Allison From wacarder at usit.net Wed Apr 6 10:11:20 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:11:20 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <001a01c53aba$e3ffb000$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > >> the connection from the controller board (UNIBUS or QBUS) is a > >> straight cable AFAIK. The RX01 and RX02 exist as a table top box and > >> uses a DB25 connector to the controller. > > > >Not all RX01's have a DB25 to connect to the controller, on the ones I > >recovered with an 11/23 system (rackmount drives), there's just a > >ribbon cable connecting the two berg connectors on the controller and > >drive together. > > The ones with DB25 were used with Decmate-1 all others only had a > ribbon cable exiting the box at a bracket to support the cable. > the DECmate-1 version FYI still has the same baords and cable > hookup internally so it is usable with any system (after setting > internal dipswitch). > > Allison My RX01 with a DB25 was used with an 11/03 in an office back in the late 1970s and 1980s. A null modem cable was used to connect from a serial line in the back of the 11/03 to the DB25 on the back of the tabletop RX01. Ashley From Gary.Messick at ngc.com Wed Apr 6 10:20:09 2005 From: Gary.Messick at ngc.com (Messick, Gary L (Space Technology)) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:20:09 -0700 Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: <2F52145AAA91AD49BD47CC685800F70F5216A7@XCGC3006.northgrum.com> > > On laserjets you can hold down the online button while powering up the > > printer. Hold until it starts to print and it provides a status page > > and a graphics test page. Give it a try. > > There are no buttons on an Apple LaserWriter (Plus). Buttons > are an HP LaserJet thing. On the Canon CX Engine, wasn't there a button on the side panel that would print a set of parallel lines independent of the controller? From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 6 10:36:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:36:55 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504061432.KAA24863@wordstock.com> References: <200504061432.KAA24863@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <42540217.3020700@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: > It already been done - a few years ago the Atari 2600 and a bunch of rare > games were featured on the Antiques Roadshow... What games and how much did they fetch? Average price of a typical "rare" videogame item at auction (real auction, not ebay), like a game cartridge or prototype, is around $150-$200. I'm curious how close the AR person estimated the value was (and how old he was!) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 6 10:45:47 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 10:45:47 -0500 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <001a01c53aba$e3ffb000$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <001a01c53aba$e3ffb000$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <200504061045.47665.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 10:11, Ashley Carder wrote: > My RX01 with a DB25 was used with an 11/03 in an office back in the > late 1970s and 1980s. A null modem cable was used to connect from a > serial line in the back of the 11/03 to the DB25 on the back of the > tabletop RX01. Serial line? AFAIK, the RX01 never had an RS232-type interface to it.. TU58s do have a serial connection (though maybe not at RS-232 signal levels). I'd imagine you'd need a straight-thru DB25->DB25 cable to hook an RX01 up to an RXV11 or RXV21. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wacarder at usit.net Wed Apr 6 10:53:33 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:53:33 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net><001a01c53aba$e3ffb000$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <200504061045.47665.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <004d01c53ac0$ca21c5f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > My RX01 with a DB25 was used with an 11/03 in an office back in the > > late 1970s and 1980s. A null modem cable was used to connect from a > > serial line in the back of the 11/03 to the DB25 on the back of the > > tabletop RX01. > > Serial line? AFAIK, the RX01 never had an RS232-type interface to it.. > TU58s do have a serial connection (though maybe not at RS-232 signal > levels). I'd imagine you'd need a straight-thru DB25->DB25 cable to > hook an RX01 up to an RXV11 or RXV21. Sorry, I realize that it wasn't a serial line. It just had an RS232 style connector on the end. I suppose that DEC had wired up this thing so that it used a DB25-DB25 null modem cable to pass the signals from the ribbon cable coming out of the RXV11 controller to the DB25 connector (which connects to a ribbon cable inside the box) on the back of the RX01 drive. Ashley From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 6 11:07:34 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 16:07:34 +0000 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504060112.49864.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504060112.49864.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1112803654.2239.88.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 01:12 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make people > think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. A while ago I was discussing EBay-like prices with people (for old computer stuff). Their argument was that EBay prices reflect the true state of the market and the true worth of classic computer items. I can see their side of it I suppose; I was just amazed that - coming from a buying point of view - they just didn't believe that a world existed outside of EBay. Which is fine by me if they want to keep on paying EBay prices for things (whether they believe they're being ripped off or not) - I'll just carry on using my brain and getting hold of things via other routes. The notion of over-inflated EBay (& co) prices doesn't bother me *that* much, because in my view the things that turn up on EBay and the like *aren't* the things that have much interest from a preservation / coolness / hacker perspective. *usually* things like service manuals, documentation sets or custom bits of hardware never make it to EBay etc. because the current owner either is clued-up and knows that their 'value' isn't in monetary terms, or they've come by this stuff from elsewhere and deem it such junk that they can't be bothered to list it in the first place. In the former case, it tends to pass from collector to collector for free / trade / peanuts anyway. The latter case is a little more tricky and the only way items that someone (wrongly) might consider to be junk get saved is through museums or word of mouth / visibility of the 'target' collector. So, much of what ends up on EBay are things that the resourceful amongst us can find anyway - the really rare/useful stuff tends to have a habit of looking after itself and ending up in good hands. There are exceptions of course and that's a shame... but providing someone's stupid enough to keep on paying huge prices at least the things aren't ending up as landfill. cheers Jules From news at computercollector.com Wed Apr 6 11:20:42 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (news at computercollector.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:20:42 -0400 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <1112803654.2239.88.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504061615.j36GFdwp036694@dewey.classiccmp.org> On the other hand, sometimes people post real bargains on eBay, either not knowing what something's worth or just happy to get rid of it. I found some great deals this way. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 12:08 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 01:12 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make people > think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. A while ago I was discussing EBay-like prices with people (for old computer stuff). Their argument was that EBay prices reflect the true state of the market and the true worth of classic computer items. I can see their side of it I suppose; I was just amazed that - coming from a buying point of view - they just didn't believe that a world existed outside of EBay. Which is fine by me if they want to keep on paying EBay prices for things (whether they believe they're being ripped off or not) - I'll just carry on using my brain and getting hold of things via other routes. The notion of over-inflated EBay (& co) prices doesn't bother me *that* much, because in my view the things that turn up on EBay and the like *aren't* the things that have much interest from a preservation / coolness / hacker perspective. *usually* things like service manuals, documentation sets or custom bits of hardware never make it to EBay etc. because the current owner either is clued-up and knows that their 'value' isn't in monetary terms, or they've come by this stuff from elsewhere and deem it such junk that they can't be bothered to list it in the first place. In the former case, it tends to pass from collector to collector for free / trade / peanuts anyway. The latter case is a little more tricky and the only way items that someone (wrongly) might consider to be junk get saved is through museums or word of mouth / visibility of the 'target' collector. So, much of what ends up on EBay are things that the resourceful amongst us can find anyway - the really rare/useful stuff tends to have a habit of looking after itself and ending up in good hands. There are exceptions of course and that's a shame... but providing someone's stupid enough to keep on paying huge prices at least the things aren't ending up as landfill. cheers Jules From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 6 11:26:47 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:26:47 -0700 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: <200504060910.24406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <42540DC7.AD7EC980@msm.umr.edu> The "front end" which seems to be a PC with a syquest drive and an Archive QIC drive is only worth $59.00 starting price. clueless from the rest of the prices on their auctions. Jim Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 06 April 2005 09:01, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > ? On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > ? ? A set of manuals? > ? ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem?item=5181524752 > ? ? > ? ? No, guess again. There's a reserve on those. > ? ? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 11:44:16 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 12:44:16 -0400 Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <000601c53aaf$747aa650$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBC@gd-mail03.oce.nl> <200504060840.02443.pat@computer-refuge.org> <000601c53aaf$747aa650$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2005 9:49 AM, Ashley Carder wrote: > > > the connection from the controller board (UNIBUS or QBUS) is a > > > straight cable AFAIK. The RX01 and RX02 exist as a table top box and > > > uses a DB25 connector to the controller. > I believe that the DB25 is only used on the tabletop version, which has > the usual rack-mount RX01/RX02 mounted inside a nice tabletop box. > Inside the box the ribbon cable coming from the RX01/RX02 boards > connects to an adapter that converts it to a DB25 connector. Yes. The rack-mounted drives take a 40-pin cable back to the controller (RX11, RX21, RXV11, RXV21, RX8E) The other place one sees DB25 drive interfaces is with DECmates. AFAIK, the same board that's inside the tabletop enclosure is what's under the wood-grain laminate pedestal top, serving the same purpose... adapting the external DB25 to the internal 40-pin Berg connector. DECmate Is and MINC-11s both come ready to attach to DB25 drives (the MINC has a DB25-Berg cable that goes right in to the RXV21, and the DECmate I has a DC37 drive connector on the edge of the CPU board that connects to either one or two DB25s depending on which cable one has). In all cases, though, the drives themselves have a 40-pin Berg connector on the uppermost board of their two board set. With the exception of the DECmate I (and possibly DECmate II as I have never seen its 8" drive interface), all DEC controllers have a 40-pin Berg at the controller end. It's just that there may be a transition cable between the controller and the outside world. -ethan From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 6 12:45:22 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 10:45:22 -0700 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: <200504061701.j36H15sn037161@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42542032.17F73AC6@rain.org> I maintain that Ebay does reflect the state of the market subject to a couple of limitations. 1) Ebay is a *retail* venue although bargains can be had. 2) Looking at *only* the final bid price to determine value is stupid! My general rule of thumb is to go back to the third highest bidder as that eliminates the "game players" who bid with the "Oh yea, take this" mentality. For myself, unless something is offered at substantially less that what I think it is worth, I don't bid. Not regularly checking ebay now helps with this approach :). > A while ago I was discussing EBay-like prices with people (for old > computer stuff). Their argument was that EBay prices reflect the true > state of the market and the true worth of classic computer items. > > I can see their side of it I suppose; I was just amazed that - coming > from a buying point of view - they just didn't believe that a world > existed outside of EBay. Which is fine by me if they want to keep on > paying EBay prices for things (whether they believe they're being ripped > off or not) - I'll just carry on using my brain and getting hold of > things via other routes. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 6 03:02:36 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:02:36 +0100 Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Apr 2005 01:07:17 BST." <004301c53a3c$99905930$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200504060802.JAA08479@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Antonio Carlini said: > Tony Duell wrote: > > Oh well... Fortunately this law > > doesn't seem to be enforced unless you deliberatley make a > > radio transmitter and use it to interfere with something. > > I think you have misinterpreted the law. The number of > electronic-project-building magazines on the newsagents' > shelves has dropped somewhat, but they are still there and > if they were blatantly encouraging illegal activity I would > expect them to have had a much harder time of it. Yes, building things for you own personal use is still ok, selling them them as a business needs them to be CE certified.. To get an amateur radio licence now the Government *requires* you to demonstrate your ability to build things and make them work! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 6 03:39:48 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:39:48 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought Message-ID: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is not really suitable, and PDP-11s that are seem to be a bit thin on the ground over here in the UK. I've seen a few Vaxen and MicroVaxen on the market lately so my thoughts are turning in that direction. I know a few people here run such machines and I'm seeking advice on the best machine to look for and, at the risk of starting a religious war, the best unix to run on it... :-) TIA... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Apr 6 13:12:08 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 13:12:08 -0500 Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <20050406073603.63159.qmail@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006d01c53ad4$297e0690$523cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Bill Allen Jr" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:36 AM > Hmm, > > He states "i am useing a floppy cable with a twist in > it and a 20 pin data cable." > > hard drives did not use a twisted cable on them. > > the used a 34 pin (data) and a 20 pin(control) > streight thru cable(s. > > Bill No IBM included a twist in their 34 pin hard drive cables, it was different than the floppy twist. Most clone manufacturers didn't bother with the hard drive cable twist. On the hard drive cable the twist merely changed the drive select signals, on the floppy drive cable both the drive select and motor on gets twisted. The floppy drive cable must be twisted to have drive A work properly the hard drive can work with or without a twist. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Apr 6 13:21:39 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:21:39 -0400 (edt) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <42540217.3020700@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 6, 05 10:36:55 am Message-ID: <200504061821.OAA24438@wordstock.com> And thusly Jim Leonard spake: > > What games and how much did they fetch? Average price of a typical "rare" > videogame item at auction (real auction, not ebay), like a game cartridge or > prototype, is around $150-$200. I'm curious how close the AR person estimated > the value was (and how old he was!) Chase the Chuckwagon, Tooth Protectors ($100 - $200) and Quadrun ($500 - $1000)... For more info goto: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/roadshow/appraiseit/game52 Cheers, Bryan Pope From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 6 13:46:43 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:46:43 -0400 Subject: Cromemco 256KZ Bank Addressing ? Message-ID: <20050406184642.SDWD11674.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I've got a Cromemco System-3 which I've been wrestling with on and off for quite a few months now ... I've got it to the point where it will boot and run CDOS, however Cromix hangs during boot. I've "boiled it down" to just the ZPU, 16FDC, and the RAM cards which are a pair of 256KZs, with the 948 and 949 addressing ROMs in them (sw.1 is ON for the 948 card and OFF for the 949 card as described in the documentation). I want to run a comprehensive memory test... I written such a test and can "load" it by having a PC "type" the HEX code into RDOS's SM command - then run it with 'G' - that all works fine, and I have verified that the default 32k that comes up with RDOS appears to be OK. Now I want to test all of the possible banks in the 256KZs and so far I can not find any documentation as to how the bank select works. From the 16KZ docs I see that the normal bank select register is 40h, and this does do "something" to the 256KZs ... I've determined that by writing individual bits 1, 2, 3 or 4 I can swap in four distinct 32k blocks into the upper half, while nibbles with other than one bit set all seem to map to the same block which is different from the other 4 ... This makes 5x32k = only 160k. I've also determined that writing individual bits 4, 5, 6 or 7 causes the system to die, which I'm guessing is because it is swapping the lower 32k (where my program is running)... It it works the same as the lower-nibble/upper-block, then that would give a total of 10x32k = 320k that I can access from the 512k physical memory on the cards ... ? Can anyone provide me with details of exactly how the bank select works with dual 256KZ cards installed, and how to map in the entire 512k (obviously a section at a time)? Unfortunately I don't have the 947 address ROM which would have shipped with single cards, so I can't test the cards by thenselves... Anybody got a spare? Also, I note that RDOS will not come up if the ZPU is set for 2MHZ ... It appears to only run at 4MHZ - is this normal? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 13:47:26 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:47:26 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <26c11a6405040611473ebdb90c@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 6, 2005 9:39 AM, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of > older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is > not really suitable, and PDP-11s that are seem to be a bit thin > on the ground over here in the UK. I've seen a few Vaxen and > MicroVaxen on the market lately so my thoughts are turning in > that direction. I know a few people here run such machines and I'm > seeking advice on the best machine to look for and, at the risk of > starting a religious war, the best unix to run on it... :-) > > TIA... > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > No Flame wars..... But unless you get an old microvax running ultrix, vaxen run better with vms. If you want to run unix cheaply you are better off with an older Sun or HP machine, you can get these cheap (less then 100) from ebay. Also you get the choice of running *bsd as well. You can also get sgi machines cheaply but the os is harder to come by. Dan From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 6 13:47:56 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 11:47:56 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: <200504061449.j36EnRWu033522@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504061449.j36EnRWu033522@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > On Apr 5, 2005 9:59 PM, liste at artware.qc.ca > wrote: >> Looking around the local salvation army, I spotted a LaserWriter plus. >> I've searched the archives and discovered it's a PostScript enabled >> laser >> printer with RS-442 interface. It seems. No disucssion of the "plus" >> specifically. > Manual is at Specifications at >> If it helps, there was a DB-25, a DE-9 and small (4? 6?) >> dip switch on the back (that I remember, I don't remember any >> mini-DIN). > > Nope... no mini-DIN. The DE-9 is the AppleTalk interface (like 512K > Macs). The DB-25 is for ordinary serial devices so that, IIRC, one > can blow ASCII at it and the LW+ intereprets it as, I think, a Diablo > daisywheel printer, courier only, etc. I _think_ there's a way to > emit PostScript at the DB25, but it's not going to be a speedy > interface. The printer was primarily developed for Mac use on > AppleTalk/LocalTalk > See for interface. >> I'd be interested in having a "real" postscript printer. But I'd >> like to >> test it before buying. > > One could take a Palm and a travel cable and DE9-DB252 adapter and run > a VT100 app and blow chars at the DB25 port... > >> - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? > > Does it not print a test page at power-on? I think what my mom used > to do at work was power hers on with the paper tray removed to _not_ > get a test print (and waste the paper). > The test page is controlled by a PostScript variable which can be programmed through either port. Apple OSs prior to X had a LaserWriter Utility in which you could control the test page. However be warned, LaserWriters can be password protected... >> - Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd >> assume so. > > Yes, the DB25 is RS-232, but there may be a protocol issue there (raw > ASCII vs PS). You can run either PS or Diablo 630 emulation from a windoze box on the RS-232 port. '95 and later have PS drivers for the box. > >> - Is toner readily available? > > Yes, same toner as used in the HP LJ 1, 2, 3 as well as Apple > LaserWriter, Plus, SC, II, IInt (and all the other printers based on > the > Canon SX engine). Last time I bought one, they were going for around > $45 > for a 6000 page cart. The Plus uses a Canon CX engine. The toner is getting harder to find. My recommendation would be to skip this one. Although a true "Classic" the pickup rollers are probably goo by now and a true bitch to replace, let alone find. If you go this route, ensure you find another one for parts. In Apple land I would look for a LaserWriter II NT, NTX, or g. All are PS printers, use the SX engine for which need parts are still available and are supported on the Dark Side. The NT and NTX are supported over RS232 (slow) while the g is LAN capable. (Besides I have a superfulous redundancy of parts available to help out...) CRC From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 6 13:45:36 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <2F52145AAA91AD49BD47CC685800F70F5216A7@XCGC3006.northgrum.com> References: <2F52145AAA91AD49BD47CC685800F70F5216A7@XCGC3006.northgrum.com> Message-ID: <200504061848.OAA01794@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > On the Canon CX Engine, wasn't there a button on the side panel that > would print a set of parallel lines independent of the controller? I have a LaserJet IIISi that I once had occasion to take apart because some of the magic smoke got let out. It turned out to be a blown cap. Mirabilu dictu, once I repalced the cap, the thing worked despite the damage to the pc board (it had rather eaten away some of the pc board). The relevance at the moment is that this was on one of the boards relatively far from the print engine in terms of data flow. Exchanging mail with someone about it, my correspondent said that a certain switch on another board was just what you describe - but I never got it to work at all. (And it was on a completely different board; I cannot justify this failure as due to damage from the blown cap.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Apr 6 14:32:50 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:32:50 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <26c11a6405040611473ebdb90c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16980.14690.61037.202360@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Williams writes: Dan> But unless you get an old microvax running ultrix, vaxen run Dan> better with vms. If you want to run unix cheaply you are better Dan> off with an older Sun or HP machine, you can get these cheap Dan> (less then 100) from ebay. Also you get the choice of running Dan> *bsd as well. You can also get sgi machines cheaply but the os Dan> is harder to come by. You can run 2BSD on a PDP11, or 4BSD on a VAX. Sure, Sun will do too, but DEC machines were the original targets for the BSD systems, I believe -- and certainly either should work well. paul From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Wed Apr 6 14:49:30 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:49:30 +0200 Subject: Scanned : Philips P350 doc Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050406213608.035fc2c0@pop.xs4all.nl> I just scanned a small manual by Philips Data Systems from 1972 called "SUMMARY OF P 350 BASIC AND PERIPHERAL ASSEMBLER INSTRUCTIONS WITH THEIR ABSOLUTE EQUIVALENTS" I dont expect any one to have this machine since this even seems to be only document around and the philips museum doesn't even have anything, but well in case some one does (tell me, tell me!!), you can find it on my site http://www.mansier.net under Vintage Document Library. Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 14:45:09 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:45:09 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Apr 6, 2005 4:39 AM, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of > older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is > not really suitable, and PDP-11s that are seem to be a bit thin > on the ground over here in the UK. I've seen a few Vaxen and > MicroVaxen on the market lately so my thoughts are turning in > that direction. I know a few people here run such machines and I'm > seeking advice on the best machine to look for and, at the risk of > starting a religious war, the best unix to run on it... :-) My suggestion is UNIX V6 running on PDP11/40. The reason is that there is a book "lion's commentary about Unix V6 with source". If you do not have PDP11/40, You could make a PDP11/40 on FPGA (designed by a japanese professor), or you could run the unix on Simh. You are not looking for speedy computer anyway. vax, 9000 > > TIA... > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > From mokuba at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:17:33 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:17:33 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <200504052218.j35MIPAU023141@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050405160630.0489a380@mail.30below.com> <200504052218.j35MIPAU023141@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <80b37ffc0504061317e240162@mail.gmail.com> I'd love to have a copy of those CDs.... I live in the states (Maryland) and ... yea :) ----- I'm a VMS guy, so I've got 7.3-1 and 8.2 for AXP if you're interested. They both run great on my 3000/700. ---- I'd love to have that too, I can swap harddrives :) On Apr 5, 2005 6:18 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Merchberger > > Sent: 05 April 2005 21:08 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) > > > > I have a 3000/300 that I had Tru64 ver. 5.0 install CDs for > > -- tho I'm not sure where they're packed currently... > > > > Would that work? > > It may be too much; back in the day the 3000-300LX was an OSF 1.3 machine > and it was quite speedy, though having said that my own 3000-300 came with > Tru64 4.0G CDs so 5.x could be OK. I've got easy access to 4.0x CDs if needs > be but since I'm in the UK and currently on the end of a slow DSL connection > then a CD copy and post would be necessary. > > cheers > > a > > -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Apr 6 15:30:34 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:30:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Stan Barr "Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought" (Apr 6, 9:39) References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <10504062130.ZM3300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 6 2005, 9:39, Stan Barr wrote: > I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of > older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is > not really suitable, and PDP-11s that are seem to be a bit thin > on the ground over here in the UK. I've seen a few Vaxen and > MicroVaxen on the market lately so my thoughts are turning in > that direction. I know a few people here run such machines and I'm > seeking advice on the best machine to look for and, at the risk of > starting a religious war, the best unix to run on it... :-) A micro-11/73 would run 2.11 BSD quite well. I have one like that (actually it's an 11/83 but not very different). An 11/23 would run 7th Edition, but it would be slow, and have no TCP/IP networking. A microVAX would do BSD quite well. Or if you want something classic but not *too* old, my favourite would be something like an SGI Indigo. An R3000 with Irix 5.3 would be quite nice (I have three of them). If you'd asked 6 months ago you could have had one of my spares, and a monitor. Maybe you'd like an SGI Indy, with Irix 5.3? I certainly have a spare Indy. BTW, I also saved a hub and a terminal server for you... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 6 15:53:43 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:53:43 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <200504061537.j36Fbmqn036189@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504062053.j36KrfXW016699@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Normally, all Postscript printers have a built-in self test, but I don't know how to work it on any of the apple products. I believe that it can be interfaced to a PC, but may be slow. Toner should be available, it was a Canon-engine printer, I think the "CX" engine, same as the original HP Laserjet. It MIGHT be an "SX" engine, which would be much better. In either case, you should be able to get toner, although it won't be "on the shelves" at a local retail store. From tomj at wps.com Wed Apr 6 16:04:19 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D.G. Nova update... disk drive again Message-ID: <20050406140018.N686@localhost> Well all seemed fine, I was working on Kermit, making good progress, then I/O PARITY ERROR AT xxxx -- disk read error. Diags etc, another shows up. Then another, but a previous goes away... Clearly there is a soft(ish) read error. Probably all those cheap ceramic disks on the read/write/amp board. So I will order nice, new, correct monolithic caps, and replace all the replacements. It's almost certainly in the analog read/write section, and not hard logic, said hypothesis boosted by the fact of my fiddling in that arena. I ran memory diags and all that stuff, but I am assuming it's the electronics I fiddled. I'll go do the job Right. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 6 16:15:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:15:28 -0500 Subject: D.G. Nova update... disk drive again References: <20050406140018.N686@localhost> Message-ID: <6cb801c53aed$c36455c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ya know Tom.... after I get some classiccmp.org stuff done and get the 11/45 up and running my next project was restoring my DG S/130 or S/200. You are NOT making me look forward to that ;) Jay From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 6 16:16:45 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:16:45 +0100 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <1112803654.2239.88.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001701c53aed$f13d1720$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jules Richardson wrote: > So, much of what ends up on EBay are things that the > resourceful amongst us can find anyway - the really > rare/useful stuff tends to have a habit of looking after > itself and ending up in good hands. I do see the occasional interesting item crop up. There were some "internal" Atari 400/800 design docs (specs, schematics etc) on there a little while ago. They looked real and I've not seen their like before (although I'm not interested enough in such things to have a clue as to their provenance ... I would be interested enough to pick them up for nowt if someone hasn't already scanned them though :-)). So some stuff does crop up. The (often but not always) high(ish) prices do not cause me a problem though. I doubt that local scrapyards have noticed in general (the car ones I've visited lately certainly have not ...), I've not found ridiculous prices at car boot sales, and fellow collectors generally trade or sell for shipping (or give away). So the only effect of high prices that I can envision is that a) more stuff comes out of the closet and appears in the bright lights of ebay and b) if someone has paid ?50 for some books, there is a chance that they'll keep them in decent condition or at least remember that there is a chance of getting some of their money back when they tire of the item. As for rare/good stuff looking after itself, I've heard of too much good stuff heading for the tip before now just because noone thought it was of any use. I know of three accumulations of UK electronics mags from the 1970s (and maybe a bit before) heading for the tip without being mentioned to me. I still don't think not knowing me at the time is a reasonable excuse :-) No great loss and I'm not going to scour ebay looking for such gems, but it would have been nice to read through them. Reminds me that car-boot season starts again soon. Must see if I can pick up some of those R at RE Spectrums or such like !! -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 6 16:18:20 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:18:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <20050406073603.63159.qmail@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050406073603.63159.qmail@web30508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050406141531.C98891@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Bill Allen Jr wrote: > Hmm, > He states "i am useing a floppy cable with a twist in > it and a 20 pin data cable." > hard drives did not use a twisted cable on them. IBM DID use a twisted cable for hard drives! It was not the same twist as the floppy cable. If IBM hadn't used a twisted cable, (or a cable with missing pins ala RS) then they would have had to teach their people about drive select jumpers! > the used a 34 pin (data) and a 20 pin(control) > streight thru cable(s. The IBM 34 pin WAS twisted. It was not the same twist as the floppy cable. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Apr 6 16:30:10 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:30:10 -0500 Subject: LaserWriter Plus References: <200504062053.j36KrfXW016699@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <001f01c53aef$d33c0d10$e93dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Barry Watzman" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 3:53 PM > Normally, all Postscript printers have a built-in self test, but I don't > know how to work it on any of the apple products. > > I believe that it can be interfaced to a PC, but may be slow. > > Toner should be available, it was a Canon-engine printer, I think the "CX" > engine, same as the original HP Laserjet. It MIGHT be an "SX" engine, > which > would be much better. In either case, you should be able to get toner, > although it won't be "on the shelves" at a local retail store. I'm not an Apple person but I like their printers. If you want a cheap printer that works anywhere try picking up an NTR. The NTR has both PCL & PostScript capabilities (switchable but not automatic). It also has three ports: Parallel, serial, apple-talk. You can pick up the tone from $10 from ebay. It's slow but it works on most any system. There are several Apple printers with parallel and serial ports but beware many of the printers with a 25 pin connector are not serial. Some Apple printers allow you to attach a SCSI disk drive for font storage using the 25 pin connector. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Apr 6 16:33:13 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:33:13 +0200 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050406233313.7bc5e8a3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:39:48 +0100 Stan Barr wrote: > I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of > older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is > not really suitable I run 2.11BSD on my PDP-11/73. > I've seen a few Vaxen and MicroVaxen on the market lately so my > thoughts are turning in that direction. A MicroVAX II or III / 3[5689]00 can run 4.3BSD-Tahoe or -Quasijarus. This will give you true vintage BSD UNIX. You can also run NetBSD on them if you want a modern Unix-like OS on old hardware. NetBSD also supports VAXstations. A VAXstation 3100 should be available nearly for the cost of shipping and a VAXstation 4000-VLC is the smalest VAX build ever. NetBSD also runs on Sun 3 / Sun 4 / SPARC, HP9000 300 / 400, DEC MIPS machines ("DECstation"), ... so there is a lot of hardware in the 10 to 20 year old timeframe supported by NetBSD. IIRC you can download SunOS 4.x for Sun 3 somewhere legal, so you can run the "right" OS on your Sun 3 machine too. A sun4c machine (SPARCstatin 1, 1+, 2, IPC, IPX, SLC, ELC) can be as cheap as a VAXstation 3100. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 6 16:50:03 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:50:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050406144454.J99704@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, chris wrote: > >- Is toner readily available? > Yes, same toner as used in the HP LJ 1, 2, 3 as well as Apple > LaserWriter, Plus, SC, II, IInt (and all the other printers based on the > Canon SX engine). The HP LJ[-], LJ+ (aka LJ1s) are CX! The HP LJ2 and LJ3 are SX. The Laserwriter[-] was CX! I assume that the Laserwriter+ was also CX. The CX cartridge looks a lot like the Canon PC copier cartridge, but is NOT interchangeable. It is a relatively large cartridge, and the image quality actually seems to be BETTER on the first or second refill! The asian guy who used to work on my copiers and CX printers said to NEVER use refills, "because they reak". The SX cartridge seems to be worse on refills. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 6 16:57:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 14:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050406145220.J99704@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Apr 2005 liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: > I'd be interested in having a "real" postscript printer. The Laserwriter, or Laserwriter+ are a good way to go for Postscript. Get a copy of the PrinterWorks CX engine catalog - exploded views, parts lists, etc. If this one doesn't work out, you can also get Postscript by plugging in a Postscript cartridge into a Laserjet 2, 2p, 3, 3p, . . . There are several different Postscript cartridges, not all are compatible with all printers. > - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? turn it on. by default it prin ts a test sheet during power up. > - Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd > assume so. yes. > - Is toner readily available? yes, but getting harder to find. CX cartridge. same as Laserjet[-] (just called "Laserjet", and HP prefers to call it classic, rather than "-") and Laserjet+ From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Apr 6 17:17:32 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:17:32 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> This turned up while I was collecting some indicators for a control panel project. But this might be something that should not get chopped up, and I'm not quite sure what this is (was). Its a 19 inch wide, rack mount panel with a 36-bit indicator register using Dialco 507-3917 incandescent lamps (5 are missing). There are also 4 toggle switches (one dammaged). The panel itself is .250" thick plate, painted grey with hand-written labels written on masking tape. Behind the panel there are two (DEC) 4918 18-bit Indicator boards with transistor drivers and connectors for logic and power. Spade lugs supply the power while a single-finger 'unibus-like' female edge connector is used for the logic signals. The toggle switches are connected by multi-couductor flat cable (not modern ribbon cable) to a 3-66 PERFORATED BOARD W994A, which is a single finger 'unibus-like' male edge card connector. It gets more interesting when I read the handwritten labels above the indicators. >From left to right, they read: A sel B sel Restart IOT GO PA PIR 1 thru 7 PB PIR 1 thru 7 P0 P1 RD RQ WR RQ META STP META ERR (blank) PU 1 P1 (blank) FLAG PIA PDP-6 (3 lamps) 10 FLAG PIA PDP-10 (3 lamps) I'm guessing this was part of some PDP-10 to PDP-6 interface kludge made from DEC logic modules. Is this part of some well-known kludge, it probably came from MIT's surplus equipment exchange back in the mid 1980's, but its clearly much older than that. Is this something someone wants, or should it be canabilized? ( I gotta Google on a PDP-6, I dunno that one, but I know what a -10 is!) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 6 17:37:42 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd DEC panel available. In-Reply-To: <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <33677.207.145.53.202.1112827062.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Bob wrote: > ( I gotta Google on a PDP-6, I dunno that one, but I know what a -10 is!) The PDP-6 was DEC's first 36-bit computer system. The processor was the Type 166. The architecture is nearly identical to the KA10, which was the first PDP-10 CPU. The PDP-6 was not considered to be a commercial success. Only 23 were produced, and they were considered to be somewhat unreliable. The 36-bit product line was cancelled for the first of several times. Reportedly Harlan Anderson, one of the cofounders of DEC, was blamed for the failure and pushed out of DEC as a result. Presumably the PDP-10 was called that rather than a PDP-6/B or the like due due to the PDP-6 stigma. Apparently the people lobbying for a new 36-bit computer represented it to upper management as a process control system rather than a timesharing system, though it is likely that few were ever used that way. Eric From Tim at rikers.org Wed Apr 6 17:48:04 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:48:04 -0500 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. In-Reply-To: <33677.207.145.53.202.1112827062.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> <33677.207.145.53.202.1112827062.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <42546724.3050308@Rikers.org> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg yes? Bob, I pic of the panel would be nice. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 6 17:52:50 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 15:52:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Odd DEC panel available. In-Reply-To: <42546724.3050308@Rikers.org> References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> <33677.207.145.53.202.1112827062.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <42546724.3050308@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <35518.207.145.53.202.1112827970.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tim wrote: > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg > yes? I haven't seen it, but I think the panel Bob is describing is one of the top-of-H960-rack indicator panels, not the CPU console. These were panels mainly used for diagnostic purposes. If you look at any photos of KA10- or KI10-based PDP-10 systems (DECsystem-10), almost all of the cabinets have such a panel at the top. Eric From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Apr 6 17:55:21 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:55:21 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer><33677.207.145.53.202.1112827062.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <42546724.3050308@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <001e01c53afb$b6f24460$0100a8c0@screamer> Woof! Ya gotta love the old iron. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Odd DEC panel available. > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg > > yes? > > Bob, > > I pic of the panel would be nice. > -- > Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Apr 6 18:15:40 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:15:40 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer><33677.207.145.53.202.1112827062.squirrel@207.145.53.202><42546724.3050308@Rikers.org> <35518.207.145.53.202.1112827970.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <002801c53afe$8daac390$0100a8c0@screamer> Correct, this would sit at the top of one of the early blue racks used for the PDP-6, or it could go into a H-960 or just about any other 19-inch rack. It is not the PDP-6 CPU panel itself, that looks to be 2 bays wide. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 6:52 PM Subject: Re: Odd DEC panel available. > Tim wrote: >> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp6.jpg >> yes? > > I haven't seen it, but I think the panel Bob is describing is one > of the top-of-H960-rack indicator panels, not the CPU console. > These were panels mainly used for diagnostic purposes. If you look > at any photos of KA10- or KI10-based PDP-10 systems (DECsystem-10), > almost all of the cabinets have such a panel at the top. > > Eric > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 6 18:19:49 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D.G. Nova update... disk drive again Message-ID: <200504062319.QAA01862@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >Well all seemed fine, I was working on Kermit, making good >progress, then I/O PARITY ERROR AT xxxx -- disk read error. Diags >etc, another shows up. Then another, but a previous goes away... > >Clearly there is a soft(ish) read error. Probably all those cheap >ceramic disks on the read/write/amp board. So I will order nice, >new, correct monolithic caps, and replace all the replacements. >It's almost certainly in the analog read/write section, and not >hard logic, said hypothesis boosted by the fact of my fiddling in >that arena. > >I ran memory diags and all that stuff, but I am assuming it's the >electronics I fiddled. I'll go do the job Right. > Hi I know that you'd like to blame the capacitors but if these were all bypass capacitors, it is unlikely that they are the source of your problem. I have found that when bringing up older electronics of this complexity, that has not been operational for some time, that active parts tend to fail over the next 2 or 3 months of operation. I expect that the culprit is moisture. When the unit is always powered, the heat of each part keeps moisture from accumulating within the plastic IC packages. When turned off for some time, moisture builds up inside the parts. When power is applied, this causes some electrolysis inside that destroys the part. I've thought that it might be better to bake the boards in a dry N2 environment at about 120F for a few weeks before powering on units that have been sitting for a long time. Not having any way to confirm if this would work, I've not been able to verify it. This would be bad for electrolytic capacitors but these are often more easily located and replaced. Good luck, we are all hoping things will be easy to find for you. Dwight From KParker at workcover.com Wed Apr 6 18:36:45 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:06:45 +0930 Subject: input sought for list Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BD5F@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Hi Jay - be happy to help you give the site a spruce up Here are some samples of my work www.workcover.com www.maqohsc.sa.gov.au www.region2ops.on.net (this concept would make a good ClassicCMP web site :-) www.advancedimaging.com.au www.barossashops.com www.gawlershops.com www.salvationarmy.org.au/gawler ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, 6 April 2005 3:12 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: input sought for list I'm looking for input from the list as to things that should be in the classiccmp list FAQ. I've got lots of ideas, but want to hit ideas I may not have thought of (I'm old, I forget ;)) If you have any text you think should be included in the FAQ, or ideas you'd like me to come up with text for, please email me offlist for review. In addition, I think it's high time to spruce up the classiccmp website. I'm not a web developer, so if anyone is good with HTML and would like to help maintain the classiccmp website, email me, your services would be appreciated! Along the same lines, I'm also looking for suggestions to improve the classiccmp website as to content and features. Any thoughts are appreciated! Regards, Jay West ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From news at computercollector.com Wed Apr 6 18:49:43 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:49:43 -0400 Subject: Test -- please ignore Message-ID: <200504062345.j36NjCEK043093@dewey.classiccmp.org> This is a test, please ignore. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 6 18:59:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 16:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504060910.24406.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I don't know that we can go blaming Christie's for every over-priced > > eBay manual we see from now on (though it may make us feel better to > > do so ;) > > Well, they mentioned Christie's in the auction, which is why I > associated the two together... I only skimmed the auction listing. In this case, this is one data point so far to prove my thesis that the Christie's auction was going to be a bad thing :/ > I wonder if that quote I pasted above (assuming the same seller, which > seems likely) indicates that they finally ended up scrapping the > system. It'd be sad, but with some people, it seems sanity is quite a > ways off... They probably did, but only because they were too stupid or indifferent to at least let someone just take it. And then of course they use that to create an impetus to sell the manuals for a ridiculous sum (buy these manuals or we'll shred them!) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 6 19:02:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 17:02:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504061432.KAA24863@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly John Foust spake: > > > > It's another for what collectors might regard as near-worthless items to > > sell for high prices. The latter is more interesting to me. What, > > people are opposed to more recognition and more preservation > > when it comes along with higher prices? When will we get an episode > > of Antiques Roadshow with old computers? Invite them to the VCF. > > > > It already been done - a few years ago the Atari 2600 and a bunch of rare > games were featured on the Antiques Roadshow... And what was the value given? (I can't wait to hear this... :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 6 19:29:09 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:29:09 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: <009801c53b08$d21b2a60$1c406b43@66067007> I never show the original email what is the item number you are talking about? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 6:59 PM Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> > I don't know that we can go blaming Christie's for every over-priced >> > eBay manual we see from now on (though it may make us feel better to >> > do so ;) >> >> Well, they mentioned Christie's in the auction, which is why I >> associated the two together... > > I only skimmed the auction listing. In this case, this is one data point > so far to prove my thesis that the Christie's auction was going to be a > bad thing :/ > >> I wonder if that quote I pasted above (assuming the same seller, which >> seems likely) indicates that they finally ended up scrapping the >> system. It'd be sad, but with some people, it seems sanity is quite a >> ways off... > > They probably did, but only because they were too stupid or indifferent to > at least let someone just take it. And then of course they use that to > create an impetus to sell the manuals for a ridiculous sum (buy these > manuals or we'll shred them!) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 6 19:52:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <42542032.17F73AC6@rain.org> Message-ID: > 2) Looking at *only* the final bid price to determine value is stupid! > My general rule of thumb is to go back to the third highest bidder as > that eliminates the "game players" who bid with the "Oh yea, take > this" > mentality. Correct. Once you start to really look at the price distibution over several sales, you get a more accurate idea of the price. Ebay still fetches a good buck for many things, but not every sale goes thru the roof. Far from it - if they did, I would be a happy man. On a side, and related note, I have pretty much outgrown mocking clueless sellers about trying to get way too much for their wares. They are just that - clueless. We have a clue about what the stuff is worth, but on the flip side, we as a group have little to no clue about other antiques and collectables. For example, think about this - if some old Aunt of yours died and left you a collection of Llardo figurines, Roman pottery, or antique 19th century medicine bottles, I bet most of us would start getting dollar signs in our eyes. Clueless! Give it up, guys... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 6 19:58:41 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:58:41 -0700 Subject: Ebay: Atlas Computer Original Test Equipment Document s1963 Message-ID: <425485C1.E3DD9838@rain.org> Good grief, heck of a classification for these things to be posted in! >From The Register: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14019&item=6167846083&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Starts at 100 pounds and reserve not met! From mbg at TheWorld.com Wed Apr 6 20:00:22 2005 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:00:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to it, and outputs some other stuff". Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:14:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:14:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <10504060053.ZM1353@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 6, 5 00:53:25 am Message-ID: > > On Apr 5 2005, 19:21, Allison wrote: > > > The state machine is a simple but programable non-von cpu that can do > > the needed tasks to execute complex command to seek, read or write > > a sector. The RX02 is a 2901based bitslice that does more as it > > has to do the needed tricks for DD format. > > Ah yes, I'd forgotten that. Thanks for reminding me where I'd seen > another 2901! It was the first 2901 'system' I ever worked on. I can remember some train journeys between Bristol and London where I sat commenting the microcode (I'd dumped out the ROMs -- remarkably easy on the RX02 since grounding an IC pin that was otherwise pulled up to +5V disabled the sequencer outputs and let you take over the PROM address lines). I wrote a disassembler, produced a listing, and spent quite a time commenting and understanding it. I learnt a lot from that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:18:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:18:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: <200504060002.j3602vV8028560@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 5, 5 05:02:57 pm Message-ID: > > What does it say about me if I have several hundred books on classic > > computing and not one off that list? > That you have a far more useful library. I've also got several hundred Well, more useful for the sort of stuff I do, anyway. > books on classic computing, and only one of them is on that list. > Personally I'd rather have books that explain how to use or work on the > hardware and software. Agreed. A lot of the books of history seem to attempt to rewrite said history :-). Most of the books I have are _now_ on classic computers, but were on currnet machines when they were written. For 'history', I've got 'Automatic Digital Computers' by M. V. Wilkes, which I will not sell at _any_ price (well, it's autographed, OK...). I've also got some DEC-related book that's amusing for the number of errors in the photogrpahs. There's a machine -- a PDP-something-or-other (not an 8 or an 11) with TU55 DECtapes -- that's shown left-right reversed. A picture of a microVAX is actually a microPDP11 (or vice versa). One of the 'microVAX chips' is nothing of the sort (I forget what it is, it's not a CPU at all, though). And so on. -tony > > Zane > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:29:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:29:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: <004301c53a3c$99905930$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Apr 6, 5 01:07:17 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I used to do a lot of building.. Alas it's technically illegal > > now in the UK. The idiot government decided that the EU EMC > > directives should apply to 1-offs, prototypes, and > > experimental designs. > > I expect that is an overly strict interpretation of the law. That's why I said 'technically illegal' AFAIK nobody has been prosecuted for building a prototype that didin't deliberately cause interference. Still, the possibility is there. > I think you have misinterpreted the law. The number of I have this interpretation in writing, both in documents from the DTI and in books on the EMC directive. > electronic-project-building magazines on the newsagents' > shelves has dropped somewhat, but they are still there and > if they were blatantly encouraging illegal activity I would Well, it's not illegal to build stuff. It's just illegal to 'bring it into use' unless you are sure it meets the requirements of the EMC directives. Either by doing tests, or by being able to show it can't possibly produce interfernce. Kits do haev to be proved to comply (normally by doing the tests) -- a kit assembled in accordance with the instrtuctions must comply with the directives. This is one reason why the number of Maplin's own kits (as opposed to Velleman kits) has dropped significantly. It is AFAIK quite legal to publish any circuit you like. Heck, I can publish a design for a Band 2 (FM boradcast band) radio transmitter and it's not illegal. It would be illegal to build it and turn it on, of course. It is dubious (according to the DTI) whether you can sell PCBs and other specific components for designs that are not known to comply. [YEs, I ahve played telephone tag round the DTI offices...] > expect them to have had a much harder time of it. Some of > them are still doing mains-powered projects. (I was going There is nothing illegal about mains powered projects. The Part P building regulations do not apply to 'portable equipment' (which covers just about anything plugged into a 13A BS1363 socket) > to add "SHOCK, horror" here, but I thought better of it). > > > More serious is the fact that getting the necessary chips are > > getting very hard to get now. More modern 'replacements' seem > > to come either in difficult-to-handle BGA packages (SMD is not > > a worry for me) or need expensive programmings tools. > > Fortunately my junk box is still well stocked bujt that won't > > last for ever. > > I have a reasonable stock of resistors, capacitors, diodes > and common transistors. But on those occasions when I have > gone looking, I don't recall experiencing much difficulty. > I supposed I ought to try picking up a late 80s edition of > PE or ETI and seeing how many semiconductors are still > available via net these days. > > Now if you want replacement VAX chips or maybe HD6120s, then > I would expect some initial difficulties ... Well, you'd have difficulty getting 29xx bit-slice stuff, Intel 3000-series bit-slice, most of the more obscure TTL numbers (and S TTL, H TTL, etc), even things like the 6809. I had quite a problem finding a UK supplier for a 6522 VIA recently. Bipolar PROMs are another thing that's hard to find (and 'pulls' have nearly always been programmed and are thus useless). You can probably find most of these devices on the net if you look. Thing is, I think it's a bad idea to do a new design based on components that aren't still being made. I am sure to blow some of the chips during debugging, and there would be nothing worse than spending time wire-wrapping or etching a PCN only to find I'd blown the last example of a particular chip I had and that I couldn't get a replacement anywhere (at a sane price?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:35:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:35:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: from "liste@artware.qc.ca" at Apr 5, 5 09:59:00 pm Message-ID: > > Looking around the local salvation army, I spotted a LaserWriter plus. > I've searched the archives and discovered it's a PostScript enabled laser > printer with RS-442 interface. It seems. No disucssion of the "plus" > specifically. If it helps, there was a DB-25, a DE-9 and small (4? 6?) > dip switch on the back (that I remember, I don't remember any mini-DIN). > > I'd be interested in having a "real" postscript printer. But I'd like to > test it before buying. > > - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? IIRC it's based on the Canon CX engine. In which case there should be an engine test button above the connector panel. Pressing that will get it to print a page of vertical lines. That proves the mechanism is working, and the 'DC controller board', but doesn't tekk you anything about the state of the formatter board. > > - Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd > assume so. Yes. > > - Is toner readily available? If I'm right that it's a CX engine, the toner is next-to-impossible to get. Canon stopped making toner cartridges for this machine about 6 years ago. There were trade-in deals IIRC from Canon and HP, but they weren't a lot of use if what you had was a CX-VDO (the formetter-less version, direct interface to the DC controller, used on some workstations like the PERQ). I can tell you how to repair the CX engine should you decide to get it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:46:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:46:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Apr 6, 5 00:20:52 am Message-ID: > >- Is toner readily available? > > Yes, same toner as used in the HP LJ 1, 2, 3 as well as Apple > LaserWriter, Plus, SC, II, IInt (and all the other printers based on the > Canon SX engine). Last time I bought one, they were going for around $45 > for a 6000 page cart. I was under the distinct impression that the LJ1, LW1, etc were the CX engine, the LJ2, LJ3, etc were the SX engine. And that the toners are certainly not interchangeable. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:51:50 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:51:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: The SC/MP is finally alive! In-Reply-To: <200504060802.JAA08479@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Apr 6, 5 09:02:36 am Message-ID: > Yes, building things for you own personal use is still ok, > selling them them as a business needs them to be CE > certified.. The rules I've seen state (and this is from the DTI and in books) that if a device is 'taken into use' after a particular date (now long in the past) then in must comply with the EMC directives. This applies to devices used in-house only (specifically stated in at least one book on the subject). You don't need to put the CE mark on such devices, but they do need to comply. FWIW, I don't think homebrewers need worry too much about this, unless you are trying to make a pirate radio station or something. > > To get an amateur radio licence now the Government *requires* > you to demonstrate your ability to build things and make > them work! > I believe there is actually an exemption for amateur radio equipment that is to be used by the constructor (i.e. not offered for sale). Alas I got my aamteur license back in the old days of the multi-guess exam. Still, that means I now have a full license without ever passing a morse test :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 18:57:55 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:57:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A03BC1BBC@gd-mail03.oce.nl> from "Gooijen H" at Apr 6, 5 10:50:02 am Message-ID: > I was surprised to read that the two boards are somehow matched. That is > a pity because I have two *sets*, and since one board has a rather high > connector (relative to the other components on that board, and the other > board is a bit smaller, I have put those two boards together. So there > is a chance that they are kept as a set togethre but I am not 100% sure. They're not matched in the sense that a particular controller board is set to work with a particular read/write board. Any (say) RX01 controller with work with any RX01 read/write board. What you can't do is mix a controller from an RX01 with a read/write board from an RX02 or vice versa. You'd realise this if you tried to do it, the RX01 uses a cable with 16 pin DIP headers to link the boards, the RX02 uses a cable with 20 pin BERG connectors. [Controller == the top board, hinged ot the chassis, read/write == the lower board that the drives plug into] > > I have also a complete power supply, but it is wired for Europe, that is, > it is set for 230/240 VAC 50 Hz. I don't know if there are taps on the > transformer to make it work at 110 V. Neither if it can cope with 60 Hz. There is some kind of voltage selection done by the cable that links the 15 pin AMP socket on the back of the PSU to the drive motors and fan. I can't rememebr if you can strap a 230V PSU for 115V though. What I can rememebr is that this darn thing uses a ferroresonant transformer, and that the conversion between 50Hz and 60Hz is non-trivial. I seem to remember it involves a transformer swap. Of course once you've got the PSU sorted out, you then need to replace the drive motor pulleys if you're going between 50Hz and 60Hz... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 6 19:01:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 01:01:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: rx01 w/o controller board In-Reply-To: <200504061045.47665.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Apr 6, 5 10:45:47 am Message-ID: > Serial line? AFAIK, the RX01 never had an RS232-type interface to it.. No, but it most certainly is a serial interface, albeit a custom one. -tony From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 6 20:41:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 20:41:38 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: <200504061432.KAA24863@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050406204110.03cd07c0@mail> At 07:02 PM 4/6/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >And what was the value given? >(I can't wait to hear this... :) I would've thought your first question would've been "Who did the valuation?" - John From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 6 20:46:29 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Megan wrote: > Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a > computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to > it, and outputs some other stuff". Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a computer, since a cow would qualify. Eric From Saquinn624 at aol.com Wed Apr 6 20:55:39 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:55:39 EDT Subject: SGI parts and RS/6000 disk mounting (still) Message-ID: Does anyone know of somewhere to get old SGI parts? I'm still looking for something with a R3010 on it for my 4D/25 (IP10/12 board or similar . . .). Most places (Reputable) seem to not have anything older than I2/Indy (and seem a bit pricy- but I guess that comes from having to keep an inventory etc.) (2) I'm still trying to figure out mounting the HDD in my 3CT. I looked at the IBM manuals, and they all seemed to reference the SCSI extender card (as used on my 370), but that won't fit in the 3CT. It's one of the ones with the two externally accessible 5.25" bays and the floppy mounted on top. It looks like some sort of drive rails, but I don't see the screw hole for securing the drive. I've got the drive loose in the cage, and it might have to stay that way, but it would be nice to know how it was really mounted. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 6 21:03:37 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:03:37 -0400 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <425494F9.1030305@atarimuseum.com> A computer is a device capable of manipulating data.... though I do like the "inputs some stuff, does some stuff and outputs some stuff" as a better definition ;-) Curt Megan wrote: >Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a >computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to >it, and outputs some other stuff". > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | >| Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | >| SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | >| 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.3 - Release Date: 4/5/2005 From mbg at theworld.com Wed Apr 6 21:02:02 2005 From: mbg at theworld.com (Megan) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <200504070202.WAA1290222@shell.TheWorld.com> >Megan wrote: >> Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a >> computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to >> it, and outputs some other stuff". >Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a >computer, since a cow would qualify. :-) as would we all... Just an example of how someone viewed it... From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 21:15:35 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:15:35 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high Message-ID: I registed to a local freecycling group. I receive several tens of emails each day. 80 percent are wanting and 20 percent are offering. I would expect the reversed ratio. vax, 9000 From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Wed Apr 6 21:29:59 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:29:59 -0700 Subject: Addmaster Paper Tape Reader #601-1 Message-ID: <000701c53b19$bf8bab70$0200a8c0@downstairs2> There is a lot of 5 Addmaster paper tape readers (new in box) for sale on eBay. No bids yet, ends April 9th. Item number: 7505437498 I would buy one but I don't need five of them. These look like the ones Data I/O uses to use for the PROM programmers. Michael Holley From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 6 21:40:51 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:40:51 -0700 Subject: SGI parts and RS/6000 disk mounting (still) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504061940.51261.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 18:55, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Does anyone know of somewhere to get old SGI parts? I'm still looking for > something with a R3010 on it for my 4D/25 (IP10/12 board or similar . . .). > Most places (Reputable) seem to not have anything older than I2/Indy (and > seem a bit pricy- but I guess that comes from having to keep an inventory > etc.) --snip-- Dig though scrappers/brokers "inventory" - I see sgi 4D/xx stuff fairly regularly (once every three months or so...). None of the SGI brokers I deal with carry 4D/xx spares anymore... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 6 21:58:12 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 19:58:12 -0700 Subject: DEC Power Supply - QBA11-VA In-Reply-To: <200504070100.j370xwqw043848@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504070100.j370xwqw043848@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I just rescued a power supply and power entry module from what remained of a QBA11-VA. From what remained of the housing it looked like a disk/tape/CDROM enclosure. Available for the cost of shipping. CRC From cb at mythtech.net Wed Apr 6 22:15:12 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:15:12 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high Message-ID: >I registed to a local freecycling group. I receive several tens of >emails each day. 80 percent are wanting and 20 percent are offering. I >would expect the reversed ratio. Why would you expect the reverse? Do you have 80% more items to give away then what you would like to take? -chris From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 6 22:26:03 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:26:03 -0400 Subject: qbus emulex esdi controller qd2110402 rev h rom E65G problems References: <000701c53b19$bf8bab70$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <010101c53b21$875a9fb0$3a92a8c0@maggie> anybody have one of these? I was lucky enough to find the full manual on bitsavers, but it's still not working:( the card came from a mv2 running vms4.7 showing two ~600meg maxtors as dub0: and dub1: but it no longer works. (address jumpering was set to secondary loc, but changed to primary with no other disk controllers in the system) the led error lights all come on in operational mode, and in diag mode (sw2-1 up) and applying a reset via sw1-1 I get: LEDs321 after powerup or reset NNN (the manual says these are the faults) ERROR ONN BUFFER CONTROLLER FAILURE NON HAC TEST FAILED NNO EMULATION FROM FAILED OOO DIAG COMPLETE WITHOUT ERRORS the only odd setting is a jumper J-H which the manual says should be off. when this jumper is removed in test mode, only LED 2 is lit (formatter error) More strangely, with the controller help in reset, the KA650 roms find it's registers showin on the QBUS and report 2 RA81 (which was the working config) some some bu registers and protocol must be work to get that far? swapping the 8031, removing the serial EEPROM and reseating all socketed chips made no change. Anyone seen this failure before? -h From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Wed Apr 6 22:45:08 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:45:08 -0400 Subject: SGI Indy Keyboards In-Reply-To: <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: Does anyone on the list happen to have a spare SGI Indy Keyboard? I just recently got my hands on an Indy and it came complete but it seems the keyboard was damaged in transit. Several key caps were broken off and when it is plugged in it just doesn't do anything. I have hooked up a standard Windoze Keyboard to it and I can type and have checked the system out and everything appears to be in good condition but some of the functionality of the keyboard is obviously lost. I know I can probably pick one up on E-Pay but would prefer to not go that route if it can be avoided. Thanks for you time, Greg Manuel >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 6 23:05:14 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:05:14 -0700 Subject: PC Floppy Cable, was Re: MFM/RLL data recovery Message-ID: <4254B17A.2996C643@rain.org> Are you sure that Drive A on a PC won't work on a straight cable? Something in the back of my mind says that I used to change the drive select jumper *AND* make sure a terminator was installed for the floppy to work fine on a straight cable as Drive A. I do know that not having a terminator installed (on the last drive of the string) can make for some really strange and intermittent behavior on both HDs and Floppy Drives. > > On the hard drive cable the twist merely changed the drive select signals, > on the floppy drive cable both the drive select and motor on gets twisted. > The floppy drive cable must be twisted to have drive A work properly the > hard drive can work with or without a twist. > > > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 6 23:21:57 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 00:21:57 -0400 Subject: PC Floppy Cable, was Re: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <4254B17A.2996C643@rain.org> References: <4254B17A.2996C643@rain.org> Message-ID: <4254B565.5090009@atarimuseum.com> Nope, Drive A's require a portion of the cable to be flipped over, Drive B's use straight cable on most controller/drive setups... though I do recall what you're saying about the drive selects and such, I think on the old AT's with 1/2 height 5.25" drives you used to set the drive select and such... ah the dusty old memories in ones rattle-brain ;-) Curt Marvin Johnston wrote: >Are you sure that Drive A on a PC won't work on a straight cable? >Something in the back of my mind says that I used to change the drive >select jumper *AND* make sure a terminator was installed for the floppy >to work fine on a straight cable as Drive A. I do know that not having a >terminator installed (on the last drive of the string) can make for some >really strange and intermittent behavior on both HDs and Floppy Drives. > > > >>On the hard drive cable the twist merely changed the drive select signals, >>on the floppy drive cable both the drive select and motor on gets twisted. >>The floppy drive cable must be twisted to have drive A work properly the >>hard drive can work with or without a twist. >> >> >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com >> >> > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.3 - Release Date: 4/5/2005 From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Apr 6 23:34:18 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 23:34:18 -0500 Subject: PC Floppy Cable, was Re: MFM/RLL data recovery References: <4254B17A.2996C643@rain.org> Message-ID: <001001c53b2b$13ecb680$3192d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Marvin Johnston" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:05 PM > > Are you sure that Drive A on a PC won't work on a straight cable? > Something in the back of my mind says that I used to change the drive > select jumper *AND* make sure a terminator was installed for the floppy > to work fine on a straight cable as Drive A. I do know that not having a > terminator installed (on the last drive of the string) can make for some > really strange and intermittent behavior on both HDs and Floppy Drives. > >> >> On the hard drive cable the twist merely changed the drive select >> signals, >> on the floppy drive cable both the drive select and motor on gets >> twisted. >> The floppy drive cable must be twisted to have drive A work properly the >> hard drive can work with or without a twist. >> >> >> Randy >> www.s100-manuals.com I'm sure, pin 10 is normally the 1st drive select line on a PC this line is the motor on for drive A. Without the twist you could either select the drive or have the motor spin but not both. This also means that you can not use a PC twisted cable on a classic system. On the other hand I've made twisted cables for legacy systems that only twist pins 10 thru 12 to use 3.5" drives with no jumpers on classic systems. I have the pins documented on my website, please note I have the pins documented both as standard SA400 and the IBM BS standard. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tomj at wps.com Wed Apr 6 23:49:15 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050406214244.A987@localhost> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > Agreed. A lot of the books of history seem to attempt to rewrite said > history :-). Most of the books I have are _now_ on classic computers, but > were on currnet machines when they were written. metoo -- with a few exceptions if I'm interested in something computational and old I read original materials -- they're inaccurate and biased enough as it is. Stuff like the Cerruzzi book, or Goldstine, well, they're full of shit. Cerruzzi especially just parrots axe-grinders like Goldstine. > For 'history', I've got 'Automatic Digital Computers' by M. V. Wilkes, > which I will not sell at _any_ price (well, it's autographed, OK...). Wilkes name!?! Yow... I have a 2nd ed of that book (paid $9 for), it's ex-library, somewhat ratty, it's a great book in many ways, and shows the pretty high level of software sophistication in 1950. (runtime linking loaders). 1st ed's now got for $1500! My hands-down favorite book, MIT PRESS, out of print, is A HISTORY OF COMPUTING IN THE 20TH CENTURY, 1980. A collection of papers by the first-gen crowd, just wonderful. Brian Randall is one of the few computer historians who I trust to get it right. He personally got a lot of the Bletchley/Turing junk declassified, if I remember right. Maybe Jules knows more about this stuff. From us21090 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 6 23:53:31 2005 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:53:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value? Message-ID: <20050407045332.71141.qmail@web51109.mail.yahoo.com> /* coming out of the shadows.... */ I'm planning on exhibiting my MOS Kim-1 at the Trenton Computer Festival (http://www.tcf-nj.org) and it occurred to me that I don't know what this computer is worth (whatever that means). My Kim-1 works and is a Rev B MOS unit, with original blue-cover manuals (as well as home brew case and a home brew 2k memory expansion). The only data point I have is a recent ebay auction, where 2 working Kim-1s, nice enclosures, Kim Extender Interface, 4 memory cards, S100 breadboarding card, issues of "Micro", etc went for $642. The item description doesn't mention Rev #, or even whether its a MOS or Commodore (though the photo shows *white* manuals). So... roughly $300 for a Kim-1? Thanks! Scott __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From tomj at wps.com Wed Apr 6 23:57:27 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 21:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050406215240.J987@localhost> >> Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a >> computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to >> it, and outputs some other stuff". Chickens do that; they turn bugs into birdshit and eggs. For a stored program, automatic, digital, computer, the thing that distinguishes it from other human artifacts is this one simple-seeming thing: the machine that modifies itself. (I know that now a bunch of pointless threads about "well as I drive my car the engine wears, that's 'changing itself'" but include me out of that time-wasting nonsense.) From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 7 00:13:03 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 01:13:03 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> I joined several local lists. Much of what is offered seems to be kids clothing and toys. I did get rid of a leaking, but fixable, fish tank the day after I joined. I must have had about 15 people wanting it. I'm thinking of offering the broken chunks of cement that I have in my backyard..... I probably won't get to many takers for that one :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA 9000 VAX wrote: > I registed to a local freecycling group. I receive several tens of > emails each day. 80 percent are wanting and 20 percent are offering. I > would expect the reversed ratio. > > vax, 9000 > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 7 00:11:14 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:11:14 -0600 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <20050406215240.J987@localhost> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050406215240.J987@localhost> Message-ID: <4254C0F2.10609@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: For a stored program, automatic, digital, computer, the thing that > distinguishes it from other human artifacts is this one > simple-seeming thing: the machine that modifies itself. > The main point I remember about computer defs is 'They do stupid simple things really fast." Ben alias woodelf From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 7 00:20:23 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:20:23 -0700 Subject: HEC4 Electronic Computer Message-ID: <4254C317.213EA361@rain.org> While again searching for radio stuff :), I ran across this website in Australia with an interesting article written in 1954 about the Morgan Crucible Co. Ltd, and how they justified their purchase of the HEC4 Electronic Computer. From the first few paragraphs: "The computer selected was the HEC4 Electronic Computer designed by the British Tabulating Machine Co (later becoming ICT and then ICL - who re-named it the ICT 1201), which was used with modified Hollerith punched card equipment for I/O peripherals. Systems were designed to use conventional 80 column punched card equipment for much processing (sorters, collators, tabulators and reproducers). Details of this machine are described in a second article below. Both articles were published in the "Electronic Engineers Reference Book" for 1958. The cost of the machine was about ?30,000." Also included are the specifications of this machine: Specifications of ICT HEC4 HEC4 Brief Specifications P.R.F. 38.4 kc/s Number base Binary Mode Serial Word Time 1.25 milliseconds Word length 39 and sign Instruction type 1 operand; 1 next instruction Magnetic Drum 3,000 rpm; 64 tracks; 1024 words; track switching 5 milliseconds; 18.75 milliseconds max. access Quick Access stores 2 words Add or Subtract 2.5 milliseconds Multiply 800 milliseconds max.; 240 milliseconds ave (slow) 50 milliseconds max.; 22.5 milliseconds ave (fast) Divide 48.75 milliseconds Punched cards 100 cards per minute (in); 100 cards per minute (out) Printer 100 lines per minute; 100 characters per line Price ?30,000 http://www.vk2bv.org/sb/hec4.htm From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 7 00:23:20 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:23:20 -0600 Subject: Addmaster Paper Tape Reader #601-1 In-Reply-To: <000701c53b19$bf8bab70$0200a8c0@downstairs2> References: <000701c53b19$bf8bab70$0200a8c0@downstairs2> Message-ID: <4254C3C8.4010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Michael Holley wrote: > There is a lot of 5 Addmaster paper tape readers (new in box) for sale > on eBay. No bids yet, ends April 9th. > Item number: 7505437498 > > I would buy one but I don't need five of them. These look like the > ones Data I/O uses to use for the PROM programmers. > > Michael Holley > For me I would love a READER and a PUNCH with XON-XOFF punch/reader relay. ( High speed would be nice ). Note for now I plan to use my PC as terminal until I get a IDE interface and working software for my homebrew*. Had I a high speed punch/reader then I would consider building a PDP-8 clone. Ben alias woodelf. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 7 01:11:15 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 01:11:15 -0500 Subject: DEC H734A? Message-ID: <200504070111.15266.pat@computer-refuge.org> In a haul of DEC (and other) stuff last week, I got a DEC H734A power supply, not attached to anything. Can anyone tell me what this goes to? Google doesn't have very many hits, and it's on the the qbus/unibus field guide. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From james at attfield.co.uk Wed Apr 6 12:11:18 2005 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 18:11:18 +0100 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <200504061703.j36H367n037205@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: IIRC the LW+ would by default always print a test page. If you wanted to suppress this you could remove the tray at power on as has already been suggested, a more elegant solution was to send a small piece of postscript code which would change the internal settings so that it would not print at power on. I used to achieve this by putting the code together in an editor then copying it to the serial port. If it has been turned off no doubt it could be turned on. If I can find the code I will post it. From philip at awale.qc.ca Wed Apr 6 12:16:04 2005 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip at awale.qc.ca) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <42536FF5.2030602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 06-Apr-2005 Jim Leonard wrote: > I've had a PS printer for a > decade (Laserjet 4ML, the thing is a tank) and just love it. My main printer is a LJ 4L. Not PS, which is why the LaserWriter interests me. -Philip From philip at awale.qc.ca Wed Apr 6 12:16:04 2005 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip at awale.qc.ca) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:16:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <42536FF5.2030602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 06-Apr-2005 Jim Leonard wrote: > I've had a PS printer for a > decade (Laserjet 4ML, the thing is a tank) and just love it. My main printer is a LJ 4L. Not PS, which is why the LaserWriter interests me. -Philip From philip at awale.qc.ca Wed Apr 6 12:21:51 2005 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip at awale.qc.ca) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06-Apr-2005 chris wrote: >>- Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? > > Provided the dip switches have not been changed, then just power it up, > it will print a status page that tells what language it is set to use, > what port, and the page count. (IIRC, one of the dip switches can > disable this test page at power on) No one remember which dip controled this? Actually, anyone know if the manual is online somewhere? >>- Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd >>assume so. > > Yes over the DB25, but it tops out at 9600 bps, so it is SLOW to print. Or get my hands on a ethernet / appletalk print server. Or turn a Mac into one. >>- Is toner readily available? > > Last time I bought one, they were going for around $45 for a 6000 page > cart. Excellent. -Philip From philip at awale.qc.ca Wed Apr 6 12:21:51 2005 From: philip at awale.qc.ca (philip at awale.qc.ca) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:21:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 06-Apr-2005 chris wrote: >>- Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? > > Provided the dip switches have not been changed, then just power it up, > it will print a status page that tells what language it is set to use, > what port, and the page count. (IIRC, one of the dip switches can > disable this test page at power on) No one remember which dip controled this? Actually, anyone know if the manual is online somewhere? >>- Can this be interface to a straight PC? If the DB-25 is RS-232, I'd >>assume so. > > Yes over the DB25, but it tops out at 9600 bps, so it is SLOW to print. Or get my hands on a ethernet / appletalk print server. Or turn a Mac into one. >>- Is toner readily available? > > Last time I bought one, they were going for around $45 for a 6000 page > cart. Excellent. -Philip From rsnats at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 6 20:01:32 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:01:32 -0500 Subject: Intellec MDS questions Message-ID: <000201c53b0d$5afd71e0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> I recently purchased an MDS 800 without a disk drive. It does have a controller and cable to the backplane for a disk drive. Do you have a schematic for the PCB and a wiring diagram of the PCB to backplane cable. I have some old SA801 drives and a power supply that I could use. Bob rsnats at bellsouth.net From rsnats at bellsouth.net Wed Apr 6 20:04:59 2005 From: rsnats at bellsouth.net (xyz) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 20:04:59 -0500 Subject: Intellec MDS questions Message-ID: <000901c53b0d$d5767110$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Joe, I saw where you might have a MDS floppy disk system. Is it for sell? Bob rsnats at bellsouth.net From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Apr 6 22:21:37 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:21:37 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050406231312.02b70210@mail.n.ml.org> Definitely not from my neck of the woods. It is reversed here. Though, what is being offered is sometimes rediculous. For example, someone was offering a partially consumed package of paper napkins, available for pickup only. WTF? Yes, pickup only. Considering gasoline costs $2.28 for 87 unleaded in these parts, there were obviously- NO Takers. Things like that pop up often, but sometimes you get a bunch of nifty stuff offered for free, or some small fee (tag sale is the $300 or less branch off of freecycle). I got a free used (and working) Cisco Aironet 340 PCMCIA card (Wireless B) from someone lately who offered it. Also got a LinkSys BEFSR41v2 Broadband Router for $20, new with receipt copy to prove it, in opened box (used for 2 days, guy went wireless to his PC instead as he didn't feel like placing network wires about). It just depends on where you are and what is out there to be offered. Yes, some places will offer nothing or crap, while others offer a lot or really interesting items. You just have to look about. Items on topic offered as of late: an old 8088, a GE typewriter, an IBM typewriter and a teletype terminal. It just depends, like I said. -John Boffemmyer IV At 10:15 PM 4/6/2005, you wrote: >I registed to a local freecycling group. I receive several tens of >emails each day. 80 percent are wanting and 20 percent are offering. I >would expect the reversed ratio. > >vax, 9000 From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 7 02:47:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 00:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D.G. Nova update... disk drive again In-Reply-To: <200504062319.QAA01862@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504062319.QAA01862@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20050407003556.Y987@localhost> On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I know that you'd like to blame the capacitors but > if these were all bypass capacitors, it is unlikely that > they are the source of your problem. Well, pretty much all of them were... but there are also other caps of the same type that I did not replace, as I didn't have the values. I do believe at this time that the problem is on the analog board. There are three chips, functioning, a bunch of 1/4w Rs, some diodes, etc, that I "trust". I did replace one .01 with .1 that was the DC block to the AGC; I overlooked that until the board was installed. That's a flat-out mistake. So I ordered the right caps, including the missing values, and since it's an overall "low cost" job, I'll do it somewhat blindly. And worry anew if it doesn't work :-) I did watch the AGC work, but you know how that goes; it's a closed-loop, the reference V for it seems OK, I saw a long-TC sniggle (tens of millsecs) so I "assume" AGC works. > I expect that the culprit is moisture. When the unit is always > powered, the heat of each part keeps moisture from accumulating > within the plastic IC packages. When turned off for some > time, moisture builds up inside the parts. When power > is applied, this causes some electrolysis inside that destroys > the part. Well, it was a truly well-sealed trailer. In Bakersfield. Think hot desert (though there is winter rain, 8" a year or so, there was not one single evidence of moisture, zero, not even mouse turds). Absolutely no evidence of humidity, all the papers were dry and clean. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 7 03:09:29 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 04:09:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <4254C0F2.10609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050406215240.J987@localhost> <4254C0F2.10609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200504070817.EAA14924@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The main point I remember about computer defs is 'They do stupid > simple things really fast." And, to a first, second, and even third approximation, with no errors. "I really hate this damn machine I wish that they would sell it It never does quite what I want But only what I tell it." We'd be ecstatic if practically anything else had error rates well under one in 1e9[%]. But most computers, if they failed one instruction in 1e9 - never mind one clock cycle in 1e9 - wouldn't last even long enough to boot; it's not only common but *expected* that they do exactly what they're told to do, to within ten, eleven, twelve nines of "always". It's really pretty impressive. [%] Given our population demographics, I hesitate to say "billion" no matter what number I mean by it. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 7 02:59:31 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:59:31 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:30:34 BST." <10504062130.ZM3300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Pete Turnbull said: > On Apr 6 2005, 9:39, Stan Barr wrote: > > > I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of > > older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is > > not really suitable, and PDP-11s that are seem to be a bit thin > > on the ground over here in the UK. I've seen a few Vaxen and > > MicroVaxen on the market lately so my thoughts are turning in > > that direction. I know a few people here run such machines and I'm > > seeking advice on the best machine to look for and, at the risk of > > starting a religious war, the best unix to run on it... :-) > > A micro-11/73 would run 2.11 BSD quite well. I have one like that > (actually it's an 11/83 but not very different). My 11/73 has quite a small hard disk and small memory, and I'd like to keep it running RT-11 as it has some sort of colour frame-buffer card and the software for that is RT-11 (though I've not figured it out yet - must take the covers off and see exactly *what* the card is!) > An 11/23 would run > 7th Edition, but it would be slow, and have no TCP/IP networking. A > microVAX would do BSD quite well. Or if you want something classic but > not *too* old, my favourite would be something like an SGI Indigo. An > R3000 with Irix 5.3 would be quite nice (I have three of them). If > you'd asked 6 months ago you could have had one of my spares, and a > monitor. Maybe you'd like an SGI Indy, with Irix 5.3? I certainly > have a spare Indy. SGI is one one my list, a few people have suggested Sun and HP as well. I simply want a machine to demonstrate traditional unix to visitors as an addition to my machines running RT-11, RSTS/E and early-ish MacOS, oh - and this Linux box and the later Mac, must set up my AT as well. Most of my visitors haven't used anything but Windows and need educating :-) > BTW, I also saved a hub and a terminal server for > you... > Still having difficulties with transport, may be going to Bradford soon and York is not much further - we'll see... > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 6 15:08:05 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:08:05 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:47:26 BST." <26c11a6405040611473ebdb90c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504062008.VAA19369@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Dan Williams said: > No Flame wars..... > > But unless you get an old microvax running ultrix, vaxen run better > with vms. If you want to run unix cheaply you are better off with an > older Sun or HP machine, you can get these cheap (less then 100) from > ebay. Also you get the choice of running *bsd as well. You can also > get sgi machines cheaply but the os is harder to come by. That is an option I am considering, especially an hp, but that's more a "take it home, plug it in and go" thing and where's the fun in that :-) I'd like to try vms, but I know nothing about it never having run across it, but I've use unix on-and-off since the SVR3 days - besides the vms licencing looks a bit of a palaver... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 6 15:09:29 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:09:29 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Apr 2005 15:45:09 EDT." Message-ID: <200504062009.VAA19392@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, 9000 VAX said: > or you could run the unix on Simh. already do... :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 7 03:33:28 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 03:33:28 -0500 Subject: Cromemco 256KZ Bank Addressing ? References: Message-ID: <002401c53b4c$7c82fe40$453cd7d1@randylaptop> There is a maximum of 7 64K banks, adding 80H to the bank code makes 8000-FFFF is a common write area bank. Banks are selected by outputting to port 40H basically 2^n for the output data, bank 0=1, bank 1=2,...,bank 6=40H. Normally you start with bank 0 + common (output a 9 to port 40h). This gives you access to lower 32K as bank 0 and upper 32K as write all banks. You copy code from lower 32K to upper 32K that is common, reading the upper 32K when all are enabled would make no sense but when you write to upper 32K it writes to all banks. Now jump to upper 32K to the common code and select desired bank. Now you have 64K of watever bank you want. When you switch banks you just make sure to stay in the common code. To copy data from one bank to another copy the data to lower 32K jump to lower 32K enable current bank+common bank (add 80H to bank) to make top 32K write to all banks. Now copy desired data to data buffer in upper RAM and it will write out to all banks. Reselect current bank without adding common bank, jump back to upper bank, select desired bank and you are in the desired bank with data from previous bank. You only need a small reserved area in upper RAM for common, the lower area used for transferring data can either be a second reserved area or just a temporary area that gets saved and restored between switches. Please note this only allows for 448K of bank switched RAM but on a Z80 running at 4mhz this means 6 users (1 for system + 6 for users). It a fairly complicated scheme but it gives 64K to each bank (minus maybe 1K). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Apr 7 05:31:44 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:31:44 +0200 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <10504062130.ZM3300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050407103144.GA24420@hoss.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 08:59:31AM +0100, Stan Barr wrote: > SGI is one one my list, BTW: I still have a SGI 4D30 for sell. (Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany) > a few people have suggested Sun and HP as well. I simply want a machine > to demonstrate traditional unix to visitors as an addition My HP9000 433t is running 4.4BSD-Lite2, a quite classic BSD flavor. Most (all?) later HP9000 300 should be capable to run 4.4BSD-Lite2 too. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 7 06:09:44 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 11:09:44 +0000 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <1112872184.3755.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 18:46 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Megan wrote: > > Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a > > computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to > > it, and outputs some other stuff". > > Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a computer, > since a cow would qualify. That'd be a cowputer, though. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 7 06:15:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 11:15:35 +0000 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> References: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> Message-ID: <1112872535.3736.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 01:13 -0400, C Fernandez wrote: > I did get rid of a leaking, but fixable, fish tank > the day after I joined. I must have had about 15 people wanting it. Good for reptiles, even if it's no good for fish I suppose. Worth remembering that if you're near to a university, students will generally trade *anything* given that they often have no space and no money - so some really oddball stuff moves about (I've seen half-eaten boxes of breakfast cereal change hands before now) University departments are good for getting old hardware from though if you know the right people - lots of early / mid 90's Unix machines and associated network gear over the last couple of years, along with 1980's 8-bitters that get found in cupboards every once in a while. The 1970's stuff seems to have all long gone, though. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 7 06:20:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 11:20:16 +0000 Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. In-Reply-To: <4252D966.2080706@oldskool.org> References: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> <4252D966.2080706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1112872816.3755.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-05 at 13:31 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Phil&Cathy wrote: > > If you do end a text file with a Space Return, a serious system error > > will occur when you load the file. This error will require you to remove > > the batteries from your computer, causing loss of all data from drive C: > > Oh my sweet lord. That is collosal -- who programmed the text editor, monkeys? > What kind of stupid bug is that? I wonder if it's actually "whitespace return" - i.e. a tab and a return would do it too. I'm guessing someone was trying to optimise storage for the last line and screwed it up ;) I agree with Sellam to be honest - I think software's probably worse these days. Not if you compare it against features maybe, but certainly if you compare it against the core functionality that you actually use. Too many code muppets (I hate monkeys) diverted onto piling in extra junk (and introducing strange side-effects) at the expense of getting core functionality right IMHO. cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Apr 7 06:41:55 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:41:55 -0400 Subject: Definition of a Computer Message-ID: <7b2a3f87b2ae31.7b2ae317b2a3f8@optonline.net> > Megan wrote: > > Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a > > computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to > > it, and outputs some other stuff". > > Eric Replies... > Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a > computer,since a cow would qualify. > Of course, that makes it a cowputer.... From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 7 07:11:28 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 07:11:28 -0500 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> References: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050407070737.04b4c5b0@mail> At 12:13 AM 4/7/2005, C Fernandez wrote: >I joined several local lists. Much of what is offered seems to be kids clothing and toys. I did get rid of a leaking, but fixable, fish tank the day after I joined. I must have had about 15 people wanting it. I'm thinking of offering the broken chunks of cement that I have in my backyard..... I probably won't get to many takers for that one :-) I forwarded Chad a post from my local FC group this morning where someone had offered a pile of rocks (from a barn foundation) and were overwhelmed with takers. This is in a rural county where piles of rocks are not uncommon to spot every 1000 feet at the edges of fields along country roads. "Wanted" posts seem to be discouraged on my local list. Of course, even on a list of 80% "wanted" posts, I think it would be productive to offer to be willing to take entire piles of old computer junk. - John From alhartman at yahoo.com Thu Apr 7 07:50:23 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple LaserWriters and HP LaserJets In-Reply-To: <200504070101.j370xwr4043848@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050407125023.45650.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I remember becoming LaserJet certified in 1989, and after taking the class, 2 other students and I had to break down a LaserJet I and put it back together. The instructor said not to worry, this one was broken and if we just got it back together with all the parts in the right place it would be ok... I was working with one of the Help Desk Girls (non tech), and the guy who managed the parts room (also non-tech). They did all the work as I directed them. We broke it down, put it back together and just for kicks and giggles, started it up... Wouldn't you know it worked perfectly... Needless to say, the three of us were LaserJet authorized a few minutes later... I remember a set of articles in Computer Shopper from a guy (whose name I can't remember) that had a whole website (and in those days, having your own website was no small trick..) about modding LaserJet and LaserJet 500's to take an Apple LaserWriter logic board to convert it into a Laserwriter. I wanted to do one of those SO bad. I ended up with a LaserMaster Printer that was a LaserJet IIP engine with an external controller that went in a PC and did all the PostScript processing in your PC. They called it a 'WinPrinter'. Before that, I used my Atari ST with the MagicSac Mac Emulator (not Mac Plus, Mac 128/512k) using MacOS 6, a program called EpStart (to be able to use an Epson Printer in place of an Imagewriter), and my still working today IBM PC Graphics Printer (an MX-80, IBM branded) to print. My first ever printer was an old Okidata Microline-80, 7 pin DotMatrix that used typewriter ribbons and roll feed paper on my TRS-80 Model I. Those were the days... Regards, Al __________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger Show us what our next emoticon should look like. Join the fun. http://www.advision.webevents.yahoo.com/emoticontest From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 07:43:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:43:22 -0400 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <000901c53b0d$d5767110$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407084322.00964360@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:04 PM 4/6/05 -0500, you wrote: >Joe, > >I saw where you might have a MDS floppy disk system. Is it for sell? No. Joe > >Bob >rsnats at bellsouth.net > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 07:51:17 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 08:51:17 -0400 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <000201c53b0d$5afd71e0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407085117.00b14ea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have the schematic of the cable and adapter board somewhere but I won't have time to look for them anytime soon. The adapter board has some tricky wiring on it and IIRC the cable IS NOT straight through. I've had a hell of a time getting non-Intel disk drives to work in the MDSs. I have quite a few of the same model drives (with different revision boards) and I haven't gotten ANY of them to work in a MDS. Yes, I've set all the jumpers. I've spent at least three days trying various drives but never could get one to work. My suggestion is to search out an Intel drive in the surplus places. Intel sold a LOT of these systems and there used to be a lot of them in the surplus equipment places. Joe At 08:01 PM 4/6/05 -0500, you wrote: >I recently purchased an MDS 800 without a disk drive. It does have a controller and cable to the backplane for a disk drive. Do you have a schematic for the PCB and a wiring diagram of the PCB to backplane cable. I have some old SA801 drives and a power supply that I could use. > >Bob >rsnats at bellsouth.net > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Apr 7 08:20:47 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 06:20:47 -0700 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX Message-ID: <425533AF.3010401@pacbell.net> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 --Bill From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Apr 7 08:24:02 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 09:24:02 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX Message-ID: <7b659d37b68f24.7b68f247b659d3@optonline.net> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 > Well there goes my chance of picking it up at a reasonable price.... ;( From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 7 08:27:09 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:27:09 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX References: <425533AF.3010401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <003f01c53b75$80d5b9f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > Bill Maddox said: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 > > --Bill I want it!!! Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 7 08:30:24 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:30:24 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX Message-ID: <004801c53b75$f4c104f0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > Bill Maddox said: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 > > > > --Bill > > I want it!!! > > Ashley Maybe this is somebody's humorous answer to preventing their knuckles from getting torn up by trying to reach between the big boards to get to those little G727 cards. I'm bidding. - Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 7 08:37:26 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:37:26 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX Message-ID: <006701c53b76$f03f7f00$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > > Bill Maddox said: > > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 > > > > > > --Bill > > > > I want it!!! > > > > Ashley > > Maybe this is somebody's humorous answer to preventing their knuckles from > getting > torn up by trying to reach between the big boards to get to those little G727 > cards. > > I'm bidding. > > - Ashley I bid, but I probably should have waited till the last minute. If I had waited, those folks who are secretly stalking me on ebay would perhaps not have known about the existence of the rare and elusive Grantosaurus Rex. That is, if they had not read Bill's original post with his paleontological discovery. Ashley From cb at mythtech.net Thu Apr 7 08:45:55 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:45:55 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: >My main printer is a LJ 4L. Not PS, which is why the LaserWriter >interests me. Would it maybe be easier to get a postscript simm for the 4L? I don't know what they go for, but I bought two for LaserJet 4's (not L, one was a 4 the other a 4 Plus), on ebay for around $10 each (I bought them about a year apart from each other). If you do that, you get the newer, faster, printer... and only one printer to deal with rather than two. -chris From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 7 08:46:17 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:46:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: next! In-Reply-To: <425533AF.3010401@pacbell.net> References: <425533AF.3010401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20716.135.196.108.27.1112881577.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, In typical Witchy fashion I've managed to snarf a german version of the full NeXTSTEP 3.3 Academic Bundle on the same day that someone agreed to copy his own NeXTSTEP stuff for me :D Fortunately I still paid a lot less than some of the online sharks want for NeXT stuff. (before anyone says anything, the CDs and most of the manuals are multi-lingual :o)) This means I'm fully OS'd up to the hilt to get my next slab online and into the new millennium at last! *does a happy dance* Anyone want a disk image of NeXTSTEP 2.4 for nostalgia reasons? I'll be dumping the contents to an ISO before I upgrade...... Also, latest additions: ACT Sirius 1 that let the magic smoke out (mains smoothing cap, nothing drastic, the house will still stink tonight) and 2 Atari 800s, one boxed with an 810 floppy drive. cheers, -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From cb at mythtech.net Thu Apr 7 08:55:32 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:55:32 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: >No one remember which dip controled this? That tells you how to turn on and off the Test Page. It isn't done via dip switches as I thought I recalled it being. It is done programatically (as someone else reported). Chances are really good it wasn't turned off, and simply powering on the printer will cause you to get a test page. >Actually, anyone know if the manual is online somewhere? When you can find it, Apple's web site actually has a decent amount of info on most all their products dating back to the Apple IIe. The problem can be finding it, they don't tend to make it easy, and I swear every time someone figures out the logic, they rearrange the site to better hide the old info. -chris From James at jdfogg.com Thu Apr 7 09:01:07 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:01:07 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it em=5181545036&rd=1 Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making such a board at home would be a simple project. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Apr 7 08:59:05 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 09:59:05 -0400 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <4254C0F2.10609@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20050325185914.T1175@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050327002433.053da5a8@mail.30below.com> <200504070100.VAA1284953@shell.TheWorld.com> <54552.207.145.53.202.1112838389.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <20050406215240.J987@localhost> <4254C0F2.10609@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42553CA9.8040406@compsys.to> I sent the following definition a few days ago: SPEEDY MORON First Corollary - If you provide it the correct program, it provides the correct result very quickly Second Corollary - If you provide an incorrect program, it provides the wrong result just as fast Why is it that the general public always blames the computer itself when a mistake is made rather than the VP who is responsible for managing the individuals who wrote the program? Note that I rarely say the the individual who wrote the program is at fault. Rather, it is management's responsibility to ensure quality control. >woodelf wrote: > Tom Jennings wrote: > > For a stored program, automatic, digital, computer, the thing that > >> distinguishes it from other human artifacts is this one >> simple-seeming thing: the machine that modifies itself. >> > The main point I remember about computer defs is 'They do stupid > simple things really fast." > Ben alias woodelf If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 7 09:32:09 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:32:09 -0500 Subject: SGI parts and RS/6000 disk mounting (still) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504070932.09642.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 April 2005 20:55, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > (2) I'm still trying to figure out mounting the HDD in my 3CT. I > looked at the IBM manuals, and they all seemed to reference the SCSI > extender card (as used on my 370), but that won't fit in the 3CT. > It's one of the ones with the two externally accessible 5.25" bays > and the floppy mounted on top. It looks like some sort of drive > rails, but I don't see the screw hole for securing the drive. I've > got the drive loose in the cage, and it might have to stay that way, > but it would be nice to know how it was really mounted. It should use the same sort of card, but without the SCSI PCB that's in the 370's one. It should fit if you remove the SCSI "extender" PBC on it. (The 3CT should use wide SCSI, like the 39x does.) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Apr 7 09:48:12 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 10:48:12 -0400 Subject: Update on HHC Basics Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050407103538.04e5a698@mail.30below.com> Well, I have good news and I have good news... (and just a little bad news)... I have now erased a bajangle of eproms, I have quite a few Basics burned and lots of spare blank carts, so they'll hit the mail soon. I have tomorrow off, so I'll prolly pack/address/ship then. If not, definitely over the weekend. Tuesday nite was going to be my "Pack'em up nite" but the wifeypoo got a line on a good job, so it was transformed into "Rewrite the Resume nite."[1] Wednesdays are a PITA for me (to work at 7:30am, get out at 8:30 pm or later) so I rarely feel like doing anything after work. Of course, my LCD monitor "went blank" Tuesday nite, so I had to figure out the cause of that last nite... I was a grumpy dude by 11:00 pm. ;-) Turns out the LCD monitor died... :-( I grabbed my wife's monitor and am using that temporarily until I can get a new one in. I did test a basic cart in my HHC, and it seems to work fine, *except* I think my RAM's a bit wonky, as once I create a program, then exit BASIC, it thinks I have 2 bytes of free memory left. Weird. It might also be a limitation as to *which slot* the chip goes into - I didn't diddle with that. Or... I don't believe that the internal batteries are functioning, so it might be a power problem causing the wonkeyness... Anyway, the Basic itself comes up and it takes immediate commands just fine, and I've entered in 2-3 line programs that run fine until you exit basic, then it thinks there's no free memory left. Like I said, weird. Anyway, I'll send out individual emails tomorrow with the status of each order, but I wanted to let everyone know I didn't forget 'em! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] After a 10-year hiatus from the workforce, it was quite a job! -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Apr 7 08:32:45 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 09:32:45 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> References: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050407092952.02b723e0@mail.n.ml.org> Chad, local guy offered his broken concrete chunks last week, had 20+ people looking to take it for everything from rock beds for drainage ditches to stone walls to stone chunks in an outdoor garden someone was designing. You can definitely get rid of them. =) :Attempt to make on-topic: Were these chunks from a floor supporting old big-iron in a building or from a computer company's locale that was demolished? -John Boffemmyer IV At 01:13 AM 4/7/2005, you wrote: >I joined several local lists. Much of what is offered seems to be kids >clothing and toys. I did get rid of a leaking, but fixable, fish tank the >day after I joined. I must have had about 15 people wanting it. I'm >thinking of offering the broken chunks of cement that I have in my >backyard..... I probably won't get to many takers for that one :-) > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA > >9000 VAX wrote: > >>I registed to a local freecycling group. I receive several tens of >>emails each day. 80 percent are wanting and 20 percent are offering. I >>would expect the reversed ratio. >>vax, 9000 From bert at brothom.nl Thu Apr 7 11:02:49 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 17:02:49 +0100 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> James Fogg wrote: >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it > > em=5181545036&rd=1 > > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > such a board at home would be a simple project. It would be, but I don't believe this board is made at home. To me it looks like gold contacts on the edges and the font of the text to me looks exactly like the font on real DEC boards. Bert From anheier at owt.com Thu Apr 7 00:32:20 2005 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2005 22:32:20 -0700 Subject: Surplus places in Albuquerque? Message-ID: <6968690C-A726-11D9-937B-0050E4E0C16B@owt.com> A business trip has me going to Albuquerque next week and I have Monday afternoon free. Can anyone suggest some must see computer surplus shops? Thanks Norm From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 7 10:04:26 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:04:26 -0500 Subject: Cromemco 256KZ Bank Addressing ? References: <002401c53b4c$7c82fe40$453cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <003c01c53b83$1aeafed0$e53dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Randy McLaughlin" Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 3:33 AM > There is a maximum of 7 64K banks, adding 80H to the bank code makes > 8000-FFFF is a common write area bank. > > Banks are selected by outputting to port 40H basically 2^n for the output > data, bank 0=1, bank 1=2,...,bank 6=40H. > > Normally you start with bank 0 + common (output a 9 to port 40h). This > gives you access to lower 32K as bank 0 and upper 32K as write all banks. I should never post when I have insomnia, that should be 81H to port 40H. > You copy code from lower 32K to upper 32K that is common, reading the > upper 32K when all are enabled would make no sense but when you write to > upper 32K it writes to all banks. > > Now jump to upper 32K to the common code and select desired bank. > > Now you have 64K of watever bank you want. When you switch banks you just > make sure to stay in the common code. > > To copy data from one bank to another copy the data to lower 32K jump to > lower 32K enable current bank+common bank (add 80H to bank) to make top > 32K write to all banks. Now copy desired data to data buffer in upper RAM > and it will write out to all banks. Reselect current bank without adding > common bank, jump back to upper bank, select desired bank and you are in > the desired bank with data from previous bank. > > > You only need a small reserved area in upper RAM for common, the lower > area used for transferring data can either be a second reserved area or > just a temporary area that gets saved and restored between switches. > > > Please note this only allows for 448K of bank switched RAM but on a Z80 > running at 4mhz this means 6 users (1 for system + 6 for users). > > It a fairly complicated scheme but it gives 64K to each bank (minus maybe > 1K). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 10:19:11 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 08:19:11 -0700 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUSREX References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it > em=5181545036&rd=1 > > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > such a board at home would be a simple project. Except perhaps for the gold plating. Vince From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 7 10:33:49 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:33:49 -0500 Subject: Update on HHC Basics References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050407103538.04e5a698@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000d01c53b87$3872f990$e53dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Roger Merchberger" Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 9:48 AM > Well, I have good news and I have good news... (and just a little bad > news)... > > I have now erased a bajangle of eproms, I have quite a few Basics burned > and lots of spare blank carts, so they'll hit the mail soon. I have > tomorrow off, so I'll prolly pack/address/ship then. If not, definitely > over the weekend. Tuesday nite was going to be my "Pack'em up nite" but > the wifeypoo got a line on a good job, so it was transformed into "Rewrite > the Resume nite."[1] Wednesdays are a PITA for me (to work at 7:30am, get > out at 8:30 pm or later) so I rarely feel like doing anything after work. > Of course, my LCD monitor "went blank" Tuesday nite, so I had to figure > out the cause of that last nite... I was a grumpy dude by 11:00 pm. ;-) > Turns out the LCD monitor died... :-( I grabbed my wife's monitor and am > using that temporarily until I can get a new one in. > > I did test a basic cart in my HHC, and it seems to work fine, *except* I > think my RAM's a bit wonky, as once I create a program, then exit BASIC, > it thinks I have 2 bytes of free memory left. Weird. It might also be a > limitation as to *which slot* the chip goes into - I didn't diddle with > that. Or... I don't believe that the internal batteries are functioning, > so it might be a power problem causing the wonkeyness... Anyway, the Basic > itself comes up and it takes immediate commands just fine, and I've > entered in 2-3 line programs that run fine until you exit basic, then it > thinks there's no free memory left. Like I said, weird. > > Anyway, I'll send out individual emails tomorrow with the status of each > order, but I wanted to let everyone know I didn't forget 'em! > > ;-) > > Laterz, > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > > [1] After a 10-year hiatus from the workforce, it was quite a job! > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me > zmerch at 30below.com. | > SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers I used to repair HHC's and you should not leave dead batteries in them. The batteries will out-gas and destroy the computer via corrosion. The batteries are just AA ni-cads and you can build your own pack. It is easiest if you buy an off the shelf pack that is similar and cut off the plastic jacket, add however many cells you need and cover the ends with tape. If you have an HHC sitting around doing nothing open it up and remove the batteries. This applies to the printer also (the printer uses 2, 2 cell packs). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From James at jdfogg.com Thu Apr 7 10:48:39 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:48:39 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUSGRANTOSAURUSREX Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045891@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it > > em=5181545036&rd=1 > > > > > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It > looks like > > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. > > Making such a board at home would be a simple project. > > Except perhaps for the gold plating. > > Vince A friend on another list mentioned he had seen such boards before. Would someone have manufactured these to address the bleeding knuckle problem - perhaps before DEC made the full-height boards? From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 7 11:25:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:25:16 -0500 Subject: Atari Portfolio User Warning - the bugs we lived with then. In-Reply-To: <1112872816.3755.13.camel@weka.localdomain>; from julesrichardsonuk@yahoo.co.uk on Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 11:20:16AM +0000 References: <01e301c539da$e2425960$01d5828a@wolfie> <4252D966.2080706@oldskool.org> <1112872816.3755.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050407112516.B4851@homer.berkhirt.com> On Thu, Apr 07, 2005 at 11:20:16AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > I wonder if it's actually "whitespace return" - i.e. a tab and a return > would do it too. I'm guessing someone was trying to optimise storage for > the last line and screwed it up ;) More likely, "space-return" as listed in the original bug was used internally as an end-of-file marker or something. Stupid design decision. > I agree with Sellam to be honest - I think software's probably worse > these days. Not if you compare it against features maybe, but certainly > if you compare it against the core functionality that you actually use. > Too many code muppets (I hate monkeys) diverted onto piling in extra > junk (and introducing strange side-effects) at the expense of getting > core functionality right IMHO. The problem with much of today's software is that we are collapsing under our own weight. It's a fairly obvious cycle: The longer a product is around, the more a company has to add to it every few years to keep getting new licenses and generate cash flow. The upshot is that there is an expectation for all software, existing and new, to have an incredibly massive feature set to compete in the marketplace. Having such a massive feature set means more opportunity for error when creating it, especially when you've got multiple people creating different chunks of it. (To be fair, I think the industry has always had the featuritis bug -- it's only in recent times that personal computers have grown so much that they are finally at the level where they can physically house such massive applications -- kind-of like how our collection grows to fill the space provided for it :-) Another thing facilitating this is the mindset: Thanks to widespread adoption of the WWW, cheap broadband internet access, and Microsoft Windows 3.x and 95, it is now "accepted" in the minds of most consumers and developers that: - *Everyone* writes buggy software since it's so complex nowadays - I can always download a patch to fix something later - I reboot Windows once a day, why should applications be any different - It's so easy to contact tech support that it's not a big deal to do so ...etc. Back in the 1970s/1980s, there simply couldn't be bugs in the software because there was no way to get fixes to consumers. Luckily, most software back then was of the one-man-wonder variety and a competent progammer usually didn't make mind-blowing terrible mistakes. (I agree with Jules in that many bugs of the "collosal" variety I've encountered with large-team projects are the result of two people making a minor bug in their own components that, combined, cause a real problem.) It's important to remember that there were bugs and upgrades in the 1980s too (although mostly limited to the PC and Mac platforms). I can remember connecting to Wordperfect and Sierra BBSes to download patches that were uploaded by tech support to fix bugs in their products... Were there less of them? Yes. But I just wanted to point out they *did* exist because too many times I have talked to people who INSIST that early software was BUG FREE. -- Jim Leonard http://www.oldskool.org/ Email: trixter at oldskool.org Like PC games? Help support the MobyGames database: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or taste a slice of the demoscene at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 7 11:34:35 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:34:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <33634.64.169.63.74.1112891675.squirrel@64.169.63.74> James wrote: > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > such a board at home would be a simple project. I wonder whether the darker markings (scales, leg, etc.) are actually silkscreened onto it? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 7 11:40:55 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <33681.64.169.63.74.1112892055.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Bert wrote: > and the font of the text > to me looks exactly like the font on real DEC boards. Not really. The DEC font used for text on board etch was much more angular. For instance, the letter "O" was more square than round. AFAIK, that was done deliberately because it took longer (and required a larger data file) to plot curves. Eric From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 7 11:30:25 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:30:25 +0000 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <1112891425.4127.28.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-07 at 17:02 +0100, Bert Thomas wrote: > James Fogg wrote: > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it > > > > em=5181545036&rd=1 > > > > > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > > such a board at home would be a simple project. > > It would be, but I don't believe this board is made at home. > To me it looks like gold contacts on the edges and the font of the text > to me looks exactly like the font on real DEC boards. Could it have been a normal board to which someone took a jig saw, and they somehow worked out how to do the solder lettering themselves? That or it was someone at DEC who got a short batch done with the lettering and did the rest themselves... cheers J. From fernande at internet1.net Thu Apr 7 11:55:12 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:55:12 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050407092952.02b723e0@mail.n.ml.org> References: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050407092952.02b723e0@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <425565F0.4050504@internet1.net> John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Chad, local guy offered his broken concrete chunks last week, had 20+ > people looking to take it for everything from rock beds for drainage > ditches to stone walls to stone chunks in an outdoor garden someone was > designing. You can definitely get rid of them. =) Hmm, I didn't think about drainage ditches. My thoughts were retaining walls or a cheap, but creative patio/walkway. > > :Attempt to make on-topic: > > Were these chunks from a floor supporting old big-iron in a building or > from a computer company's locale that was demolished? Um, no..... small patio that was sloped in such a way as to funnel water into my lab's personnel uniform cleansing facility (laundry room). Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 7 11:56:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: <200504071656.JAA02317@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> >> Looking around the local salvation army, I spotted a LaserWriter plus. >> I've searched the archives and discovered it's a PostScript enabled laser >> printer with RS-442 interface. It seems. No disucssion of the "plus" >> specifically. If it helps, there was a DB-25, a DE-9 and small (4? 6?) >> dip switch on the back (that I remember, I don't remember any mini-DIN). >> >> I'd be interested in having a "real" postscript printer. But I'd like to >> test it before buying. >> >> - Is there a way to print a test page w/o pluging into a computer? > >IIRC it's based on the Canon CX engine. In which case there should be an >engine test button above the connector panel. Pressing that will get it >to print a page of vertical lines. That proves the mechanism is working, >and the 'DC controller board', but doesn't tekk you anything about the >state of the formatter board. ---snip--- Hi At least on the 3Si, one holds one of the main buttons on the front panel ( I think the line switch ) and it prints the test page. Most 3Si's come with postscript built in and many also have a duplexer. The only bad point is that most office machines only came with the ethernet thin connector. To get serial or parallel it takes another board. I've seen these occationally on ebay for about $20 or so. The 4Si has all three connections in one card and 600 dpi ( not that I've ever seen any difference). The 3Si is a heave unit that will out last the lighter machines. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 7 11:59:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 09:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer Message-ID: <200504071659.JAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >Megan wrote: >> Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a >> computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to >> it, and outputs some other stuff". > >Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a computer, >since a cow would qualify. > >Eric > > And who is to say a cow is not a computer. What do you think they are doing while quietly chewing their cud under some tree. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 7 12:07:38 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 10:07:38 -0700 Subject: WD1935-PL Message-ID: <425568DA.2F145043@rain.org> Anyone know what the Western Digital WD1935-PL is? I couldn't find a description with Google nor does it show up in my June 1984 WD Storage Management Products Handbook. It is in an unknown piece of gear that could be an older ham radio TNC made by Applied Ditital Technology. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 7 12:11:01 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:11:01 -0400 Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <200504071659.JAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504071659.JAA02321@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <425569A5.900@atarimuseum.com> "While Chewing Cud"... Definition - Processing Data for output ;-) Curt Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Eric Smith" >> >>Megan wrote: >> >> >>>Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a >>>computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to >>>it, and outputs some other stuff". >>> >>> >>Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a computer, >>since a cow would qualify. >> >>Eric >> >> >> >> > > And who is to say a cow is not a computer. What >do you think they are doing while quietly chewing >their cud under some tree. >Dwight > > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 4/6/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 12:17:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 13:17:03 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUSGRANTOSAURUSREX In-Reply-To: References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407131703.00b13530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:19 AM 4/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it >> em=5181545036&rd=1 >> >> >> Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like >> someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making >> such a board at home would be a simple project. > >Except perhaps for the gold plating. > > Vince > That's easy enough. Everybody has a gold tab plated in their garage don't they? :-) Joe From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Thu Apr 7 12:30:14 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:30:14 +0200 Subject: DEC identification wanted Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> Hi, I've got a "what is this" question for you guys again :-) I think this is easy for someone who knows it : http://www.mansier.net/decthingie.jpg Thanks! Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 7 12:28:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:28:32 -0400 Subject: DEC identification wanted References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <16981.28096.545000.542893@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan writes: Stefan> Hi, I've got a "what is this" question for you guys again :-) Stefan> I think this is easy for someone who knows it : Stefan> http://www.mansier.net/decthingie.jpg It's a unit number select plug. Can't tell what for -- not an RA disk because it's just one digit, and not an RP05/06 because those are 5x bigger. RL01/02, RK06/07 -- and were there tape drives that used these? There are three fingers on the back that are the binary form of the unit number. paul From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 7 12:31:47 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:31:47 -0400 Subject: DEC identification wanted References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > I've got a "what is this" question for you guys again :-) > I think this is easy for someone who knows it : > http://www.mansier.net/decthingie.jpg > > Thanks! > > Stefan. It's a unit number button for an RL01 or RL02 disk drive. The different numbered buttons have different kinds of "fingers" on them that are detected by the drive so it will know if it's drive 0, 1, 2, or 3. I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 to another, but I need a "3" button. Ashley From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 12:34:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:34:19 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <425559A9.50400@brothom.nl> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 12:02 PM, Bert Thomas wrote: > James Fogg wrote: > >>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 > > > > > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > > such a board at home would be a simple project. > > It would be, but I don't believe this board is made at home. > To me it looks like gold contacts on the edges and the font of the text > to me looks exactly like the font on real DEC boards. I can shed light on this thread... notice the seller mentions "SRC COMPUTER"... actually, it _is_ for a Unibus (as everyone has correctly surmised), but SRC in this case stands for Software Results Corporation, my former employer and manufacturer of COMBOARDs. SRC shipped instructions on how to remove the NPR (Non Processor Request) wire from the backplane with every board, and a dual-height grant card to restore it when the COMBOARD was not in its slot. I was told that we made our grant cards before DEC came out with a grant card that would bridge NPR. When I asked about the part number years ago, the owner said that since the little DEC cards were G727 cards, a big one should be at least a 747, right? The GC is simply 'grant card', giving the full part number GC747. I do not know how many Grantosaurus Rex cards were made, but I suspect it's in the large number of hundreds, possibly over 1,000. After I started at SRC (1984), we only made a newer, less interesting model of grant card that was rectangular, with no plastic handles, but with a rectangular cut-out near the top that one could stick one's fingers through for extraction. I have a brick of those, and a couple of the old Grantosaurus Rex cards; all that is left from fifteen years of making Unibus boards. 99% ended up in customer hands, one at a time. There is a small chance I still have the original pasteups for the board, but I would imagine that manufacturing costs these days would be prohibitive. One thing I wish we'd done when we switched to the boring grant cards is to have put the extra pin(s) at the back plane, and put down traces and jumpers so that the card could be converted to Qbus use _or_ Unibus use. We never did ship our Qbus boards with a pair of grant cards (Unibus models outsold Qbus models 10 to 1), so I didn't get to inherit a stack of Qbus grant cards when the company folded more than ten years ago. So that's the story of the Grantosaurus Rex. One footnote... I can't remember what issue of "The DEC Professional", but I have seen the G.R. depicted in the pages, somewhere near the back, as a piece of humorous art (which it is). -ethan P.S. - to one questor, yes, the red is silkscreened. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Apr 7 13:13:31 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:13:31 -0400 Subject: DEC identification wanted In-Reply-To: <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <4255784B.90307@atarimuseum.com> Ashley... I have a 3 if you want to trade for a 1 Curt Ashley Carder wrote: >>I've got a "what is this" question for you guys again :-) >>I think this is easy for someone who knows it : >>http://www.mansier.net/decthingie.jpg >> >>Thanks! >> >>Stefan. >> >> > >It's a unit number button for an RL01 or RL02 disk drive. >The different numbered buttons have different kinds of >"fingers" on them that are detected by the drive so it will >know if it's drive 0, 1, 2, or 3. > >I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have >two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a >second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 >to another, but I need a "3" button. > >Ashley > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.4 - Release Date: 4/6/2005 From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 13:16:29 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:16:29 -0700 Subject: DEC identification wanted References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: > It's a unit number button for an RL01 or RL02 disk drive. > The different numbered buttons have different kinds of > "fingers" on them that are detected by the drive so it will > know if it's drive 0, 1, 2, or 3. > > I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have > two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a > second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 > to another, but I need a "3" button. If you know someone who has a "3" and doesn't want to part with it, I might be able to duplicate it. (White is an easy color :-).) Now, if I could just get the colors right on these dang switch handles... Vince From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 7 13:24:37 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:24:37 -0400 Subject: DEC identification wanted References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl><000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <007601c53b9f$0eb5ee10$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > > It's a unit number button for an RL01 or RL02 disk drive. > > The different numbered buttons have different kinds of > > "fingers" on them that are detected by the drive so it will > > know if it's drive 0, 1, 2, or 3. > > > > I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have > > two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a > > second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 > > to another, but I need a "3" button. > > If you know someone who has a "3" and doesn't want to part with it, I might > be able to duplicate it. (White is an easy color :-).) > > Now, if I could just get the colors right on these dang switch handles... > > Vince Vince, What kind of equipment do you have to allow you to duplicate things like these buttons? Ashley From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 7 13:31:41 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 11:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WD1935-PL In-Reply-To: <425568DA.2F145043@rain.org> References: <425568DA.2F145043@rain.org> Message-ID: <49219.207.145.53.202.1112898701.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Marvin wrote: > Anyone know what the Western Digital WD1935-PL is? I couldn't find a > description with Google nor does it show up in my June 1984 WD Storage > Management Products Handbook. That's because it's not a storage management product. > It is in an unknown piece of gear that > could be an older ham radio TNC made by Applied Ditital Technology. It's probably a serial chip of some sort, possibly synchronous. WD made a bazillion different serial chips. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 7 14:13:58 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:13:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <1112803654.2239.88.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 01:12 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make people > > think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. > > A while ago I was discussing EBay-like prices with people (for old > computer stuff). Their argument was that EBay prices reflect the true > state of the market and the true worth of classic computer items. I've posted pretty lengthy essays on this subject before. Suffice it to say, eBay is certainly *NOT* the "market value", but only one data point. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 7 14:15:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <42542032.17F73AC6@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I maintain that Ebay does reflect the state of the market subject to a > couple of limitations. > > 1) Ebay is a *retail* venue although bargains can be had. > 2) Looking at *only* the final bid price to determine value is stupid! > My general rule of thumb is to go back to the third highest bidder as > that eliminates the "game players" who bid with the "Oh yea, take > this" > mentality. I think it's worth reiterating that eBay is only one data point. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrkeys at concentric.net Thu Apr 7 14:13:50 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:13:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for item number Was Re: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: <000201c53ba6$8685c210$0d406b43@66067007> Did anyone get the item number for this? Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > >> And thusly John Foust spake: >> > >> > It's another for what collectors might regard as near-worthless items >> > to >> > sell for high prices. The latter is more interesting to me. What, >> > people are opposed to more recognition and more preservation >> > when it comes along with higher prices? When will we get an episode >> > of Antiques Roadshow with old computers? Invite them to the VCF. >> > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 7 14:35:05 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:35:05 -0400 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: <002d01c53ba8$e7965220$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 3:15 PM Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I maintain that Ebay does reflect the state of the market subject to a > > couple of limitations. > > > > 1) Ebay is a *retail* venue although bargains can be had. > > 2) Looking at *only* the final bid price to determine value is stupid! > > My general rule of thumb is to go back to the third highest bidder as > > that eliminates the "game players" who bid with the "Oh yea, take > > this" > > mentality. > > I think it's worth reiterating that eBay is only one data point. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Its a very visible data point. Anybody with an ebay account can keep track of what systems they are interested in were sold (if they sold which is always good to know) for. Nobody knows what you can get a system for Sellam because it is not mentioned in public, so the deal might well not even exist to the rest of us collectors. There are peaks and valleys of what something sells for on ebay just like any other venue. The shear volume of same items sold over a long period of time to me is a good indication of what the retail value of that items is , more accurate then any printed price guide or somebody bragging about getting one for a buck at a flee market 2000 miles from me. From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 7 14:42:34 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:42:34 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: <002d01c53ba8$e7965220$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <000801c53ba9$f2cd74b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Ya know... far be it from me to ever scream about posts... but we really have beat the "ebay price points" topic to a pulp many, many, many, many times over. It's obvious what some people think and what others think. Nothing new ever comes along in that discussion. Just my own two millidollars worth ;) Jay From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Apr 7 14:50:46 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 12:50:46 -0700 Subject: Signetics 8266 Message-ID: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> Would someone happen to have a 1970s-era Signetics TTL handbook in which they could look up some details about the N8266? I know that it is a quad 2-input multiplexor/selector and I know what the pinout is. The questions are: - what is the specific logic functioning of the 2 control inputs? - is there any inversion in the data path(s)? >From the cross-references I have the 8266 doesn't seem to have made the transition to a 7400 series standard, probably because it's functioning is a little weird. They are used in a Wang 520 calculator with the control lines operated in two different manners. While the intent of the circuitry would seem apparent, the two uses of the control lines are somewhat idiosyncratic to each other. (FWIW: the 520 is circa 1972, TTL logic, micro-program architecture, core rope micro-program store.) From Tim at rikers.org Thu Apr 7 15:04:08 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 15:04:08 -0500 Subject: Cipher M990 service manual Message-ID: <42559238.7040702@Rikers.org> I used to have a copy of the Cipher M990 service manual, and I can't seem to find it now. Does anyone have a scanned copy? I'd love a pertec to scsi interface card like the Cipher CSC100 too if anyone has one they don't need. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 7 15:05:29 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Signetics 8266 In-Reply-To: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <62849.207.145.53.202.1112904329.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Brent wrote: > Would someone happen to have a 1970s-era Signetics TTL handbook in which > they could look up some details about the N8266? Got the databook at home. I'll look it up for you tonight if nobody else has provided the data by then. Eric From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Apr 7 15:09:47 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:09:47 +0200 Subject: Signetics 8266 In-Reply-To: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Am donderdag, 07.04.05, um 21:50 Uhr (Europe/Zurich) schrieb Brent Hilpert: > Would someone happen to have a 1970s-era Signetics TTL handbook in > which they could look up some details about the N8266? > I know that it is a quad 2-input multiplexor/selector and I know what > the pinout is. > The questions are: > - what is the specific logic functioning of the 2 control inputs? > - is there any inversion in the data path(s)? > my 1978 databook lists this device, and weird it is : A input is inverting, B input is not. if S0 is L and S1 is dont care : B to F. If S0 is H and S1 is L : Anot to F if S0 is H and S1 is H : F is H. Jos From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Thu Apr 7 15:29:30 2005 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:29:30 +0200 Subject: Signetics 8266 In-Reply-To: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4255982A.2040401@gmx.net> They were also used in the pdp8/e/f/m. The processor maintenance manual revealed on page A-10: Control Input Output C D Yn LOW LOW Bn LOW HIGH Bn HIGH LOW ~An HIGH HIGH HIGH 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 I--------------------------------I I Vcc A4 B4 Y4 Y3 B3 A3 C I > DEC 8266 Pinout I I A1 B1 Y1 Y2 B2 A2 D GND I I--------------------------------I 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Gerold Brent Hilpert wrote: >Would someone happen to have a 1970s-era Signetics TTL handbook in which they could look up some details about the N8266? >I know that it is a quad 2-input multiplexor/selector and I know what the pinout is. >The questions are: > - what is the specific logic functioning of the 2 control inputs? > - is there any inversion in the data path(s)? >>From the cross-references I have the 8266 doesn't seem to have made the transition to a 7400 series standard, probably because it's functioning is a little weird. > >They are used in a Wang 520 calculator with the control lines operated in two different manners. While the intent of the circuitry would seem apparent, the two uses of the control lines are somewhat idiosyncratic to each other. > >(FWIW: the 520 is circa 1972, TTL logic, micro-program architecture, core rope micro-program store.) > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 7 15:35:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:35:02 -0500 Subject: Cipher M990 service manual References: <42559238.7040702@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <001b01c53bb1$47cca010$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote... >I used to have a copy of the Cipher M990 service manual, and I can't > seem to find it now. Does anyone have a scanned copy? I believe I have a copy of this. I will check. But... in the meantime... I think in the past I had loaned that manual to Al to scan for bitsavers... check on bitsavers first and if he doesn't have it I'll dig up my copy. Jay From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 7 15:37:38 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:37:38 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <025101c53bb1$a3f8d110$3a92a8c0@maggie> "vrs" wrote: > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > > such a board at home would be a simple project. > > Except perhaps for the gold plating. > > Vince I've seen those gold plating pen type applicators? anyone tried them? I think such a Grantasaurus could be made by routing full size grant card, no? Do you really have access to plastic injection molding equipment to make pdp8/11 handles? Might be possible to pour acrylic or resin but they might be to fragile.. the moulding is the tough part unless one can make a breakaway plaster mould from positive masters.... where do place my order for switch paddles;) 5-7$ a pop sounds fair;) h From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 7 15:31:27 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:31:27 -0400 Subject: OT: G4 Titanium battery question... Message-ID: <4255989F.8080408@sbcglobal.net> *** Please reply to me off-list*** Apologies for the OT message, but I'm looking for recommended software from people I trust. I'm looking for battery management tools for my Titanium Powerbook. (400 MHz, 512MB RAM, 20GB HDD). I've found these via the magic of Google, but they are all monitor-only applications... iBatt 1.2.1 http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/22968 Gets mixed reviews... X-Charge http://www.pol-online.net/index.php?page=freeware XBattery http://www.kezer.net/xbattery.html Or are these not smart batteries that can be managed? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 15:49:56 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 13:49:56 -0700 Subject: DEC identification wanted References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl><000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <007601c53b9f$0eb5ee10$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: > > If you know someone who has a "3" and doesn't want to part with it, I might > > be able to duplicate it. (White is an easy color :-).) > > > > Now, if I could just get the colors right on these dang switch handles... > > > > Vince > > Vince, > > What kind of equipment do you have to allow you to duplicate things > like these buttons? I'm using silicone rubber for the molds and polyurethane resin for the parts. For a unit number button, I'd probably do a 2-part mold, with the resin injected from the end with the prongs (which would also be the "top" piece of the mold). (Then any trapped air bubbles would be in the hidden part of the result.) Most of my problems with the stuff is that it is clear initially, but is white when it sets up. Which makes it hard to get saturated colors, and hard to gauge what the final color will look like. But the unit number buttons are white -- I'd probably just leave out the dye and let the white take care of itself. The numeral would probably be painted on. (Though a black resin numeral could probably be embedded with a few more steps in the process.) Vince From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu Apr 7 15:58:34 2005 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:58:34 -0600 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <025101c53bb1$a3f8d110$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <053f01c53bb4$93de7930$367cfea9@newhare> Hello Heinz et al - Try Douglas Electronics [www.Douglas.com] for ordering the "DEC-style" handles (ones I received were white) $0.55 USD/handle. ...bottom of page: http://209.35.53.132/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/accessories.html#dechandles Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Heinz Wolter" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 2:37 PM Subject: Re: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES > "vrs" wrote: > > > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > > > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > > > such a board at home would be a simple project. > > > > Except perhaps for the gold plating. > > > > Vince > > I've seen those gold plating pen type applicators? anyone tried them? > I think such a Grantasaurus could be made by routing full size grant card, > no? > > Do you really have access to plastic injection molding equipment > to make pdp8/11 handles? Might be possible to pour acrylic or resin > but they might be to fragile.. the moulding is the tough part unless > one can make a breakaway plaster mould from positive masters.... > where do place my order for switch paddles;) 5-7$ a pop sounds fair;) > h > From Tim at rikers.org Thu Apr 7 16:06:22 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 16:06:22 -0500 Subject: Cipher M990 service manual In-Reply-To: <001b01c53bb1$47cca010$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <42559238.7040702@Rikers.org> <001b01c53bb1$47cca010$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4255A0CE.2030900@Rikers.org> Jay West wrote: > Tim wrote... >> I used to have a copy of the Cipher M990 service manual, and I can't >> seem to find it now. Does anyone have a scanned copy? > I believe I have a copy of this. I will check. But... in the meantime... > I think in the past I had loaned that manual to Al to scan for > bitsavers... check on bitsavers first and if he doesn't have it I'll dig > up my copy. Not up there yet. I looked. No M880 manual either, though I don't have one of those anymore. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 16:12:23 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:12:23 -0700 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <025101c53bb1$a3f8d110$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: From: "Heinz Wolter" > Do you really have access to plastic injection molding equipment > to make pdp8/11 handles? Might be possible to pour acrylic or resin > but they might be to fragile.. the moulding is the tough part unless > one can make a breakaway plaster mould from positive masters.... > where do place my order for switch paddles;) 5-7$ a pop sounds fair;) No, but the strength of the poured ones is adequate, once they have cured. (When they first come out of the molds, they are still too flexible.) The silicone rubber molds give a pretty good result. The hard problems are getting the color right and the air bubbles out. So far, I haven't been satisfied enough with the results to show them off. (The paddles are functional, but don't look enough like the original equipment.) Price is a good point; I have about $150 into materials for the experiments, now. I recently completed a mold for 14 paddles, so I have a fair shot at making matching sets of paddles, even if I never get the colors to match DEC's. (By making 14 of each color, you'd get enough to do an entire switch panel.) So far, all my work is based on 8/e/f/m/l paddles. (I don't have any PDP-11 paddles to use as masters.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 16:14:01 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:14:01 -0700 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com><025101c53bb1$a3f8d110$3a92a8c0@maggie> <053f01c53bb4$93de7930$367cfea9@newhare> Message-ID: > Try Douglas Electronics [www.Douglas.com] for ordering the "DEC-style" > handles (ones I received were white) $0.55 USD/handle. > > ...bottom of page: > > http://209.35.53.132/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/accessories.html#dechandles I think those are card handles, not switch handles. Though I suppose I could make card handles, too. (I doubt I could do it for $0.55 each, though.) Vince From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 7 16:18:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:18:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUSGRANTOSAURUSREX Message-ID: <200504072118.OAA02384@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > >At 08:19 AM 4/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >>> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it >>> em=5181545036&rd=1 >>> >>> >>> Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like >>> someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making >>> such a board at home would be a simple project. >> >>Except perhaps for the gold plating. >> >> Vince >> > > That's easy enough. Everybody has a gold tab plated in their garage >don't they? :-) > > Joe > > Hi One could get one of those gold finger plating repair kits. They are slow but it can be done. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 7 16:33:52 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:33:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: William Maddox "Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX" (Apr 7, 6:20) References: <425533AF.3010401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <10504072233.ZM5857@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 7 2005, 6:20, William Maddox wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 Liz just came in to see what I was laughing at, and said "No! You can't have it!". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 7 16:24:46 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:24:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Stan Barr "Re: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought" (Apr 7, 8:59) References: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 7 2005, 8:59, Stan Barr wrote: > My 11/73 has quite a small hard disk and small memory, and I'd like > to keep it running RT-11 as it has some sort of colour frame-buffer > card and the software for that is RT-11 (though I've not figured it > out yet - must take the covers off and see exactly *what* the card > is!) Sounds interesting! > SGI is one one my list, a few people have suggested Sun and HP as well. > I simply want a machine to demonstrate traditional unix It would give you a very nice unix. > > BTW, I also saved a hub and a terminal server for > > you... > Still having difficulties with transport, may be going to Bradford soon > and York is not much further - we'll see... OK. I really can give you an Indy, if that's an incentive, and we're just off the A64, not right in York. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwight.elvey at AMD.com Thu Apr 7 16:43:53 2005 From: dwight.elvey at AMD.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:43:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions Message-ID: <200504072143.OAA02389@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." > > I have the schematic of the cable and adapter board somewhere but I won't >have time to look for them anytime soon. The adapter board has some tricky >wiring on it and IIRC the cable IS NOT straight through. I've had a hell >of a time getting non-Intel disk drives to work in the MDSs. I have quite a >few of the same model drives (with different revision boards) and I haven't >gotten ANY of them to work in a MDS. Yes, I've set all the jumpers. I've >spent at least three days trying various drives but never could get one to >work. My suggestion is to search out an Intel drive in the surplus places. >Intel sold a LOT of these systems and there used to be a lot of them in the >surplus equipment places. > > Joe > Hi Joe When I worked at Intel, ( I recall ) I was told that the M2FM drives had a few capacitors changed in the input amp section to increase the high frequency response. You might compare the components from an Intel drive with the same model drive ( mostly SA800's I thought ). It might be resistors but it seems like I recall being told it was capacitors. You could then post this for people that were bringing up their MDS800's but didn't know where to find drives. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll look at the drives I have to see what changes there might be. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 7 16:44:13 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 14:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050407070737.04b4c5b0@mail> References: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050407070737.04b4c5b0@mail> Message-ID: <20050407144325.O27846@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > piles of rocks are not uncommon to spot every 1000 feet at the > edges of fields along country roads. > "Wanted" posts seem to be discouraged on my local list. Of course, > even on a list of 80% "wanted" posts, I think it would be productive > to offer to be willing to take entire piles of old computer junk. Couldn't they be used instead of rocks to pile up every 1000 feet? From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 7 16:41:58 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:41:58 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <025101c53bb1$a3f8d110$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <028a01c53bba$a02c97c0$3a92a8c0@maggie> From: "vrs" wrote To: "Heinz Wolter" Subject: Re: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES > No, but the strength of the poured ones is adequate, once they have cured. > (When they first come out of the molds, they are still too flexible.) > > The silicone rubber molds give a pretty good result. The hard problems are > getting the color right and the air bubbles out. I've done some 2-part rubber silicone resin moulding for military encapsulation- pretty well the only well we could get the bubbles out was to cycle vacuum in a bell jar and purge ..took half a dozen cycles to get a reasonable smooth finish.. you using an anginate mould? I was thinking perhaps wax or plaster might be more tolerance accurate... the mould is the issue - it's hard to get the 'axle' bits without make two half moulds and filling them, unless one goes with a one piece mold and metal pin axle. > From beclassic at att.net Thu Apr 7 16:40:44 2005 From: beclassic at att.net (bill bailey) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:40:44 -0400 Subject: DEC identification wanted References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <004701c53bba$76b42340$0200a8c0@sc.rr.com> Ashley-there should have been a "3" and a "4" button in the 11/03 stuff. bill ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: Re: DEC identification wanted > > I've got a "what is this" question for you guys again :-) > > I think this is easy for someone who knows it : > > http://www.mansier.net/decthingie.jpg > > > > Thanks! > > > > Stefan. > > It's a unit number button for an RL01 or RL02 disk drive. > The different numbered buttons have different kinds of > "fingers" on them that are detected by the drive so it will > know if it's drive 0, 1, 2, or 3. > > I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have > two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a > second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 > to another, but I need a "3" button. > > Ashley > From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 17:03:45 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:03:45 -0700 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 ... GOLD PLATING AND SWITCH HANDLES References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <025101c53bb1$a3f8d110$3a92a8c0@maggie> <028a01c53bba$a02c97c0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: > I've done some 2-part rubber silicone resin moulding for military > encapsulation- > pretty well the only well we could get the bubbles out was to cycle vacuum > in a bell jar and purge ..took half a dozen cycles to get a reasonable > smooth finish.. The molds are not having a problem with bubbles. The resin does tend to trap bubbles. Partly that is because it sets up so darn fast. > you using an anginate mould? I was thinking perhaps wax or plaster might > be more tolerance accurate... the mould is the issue - it's hard to get > the 'axle' bits without make two half moulds and filling them, unless one > goes with a one piece mold and metal pin axle. True; the axle bits can be done by over-sizing the mold indentations for the pins. Then they still trap air, but you just trim off the bubbles (before things get too hardened). I actually like the metal pin axles. They seem more robust. Making little plastic axles is fussy work and it feels like it is propagating a design problem from the originals. Vince From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 7 16:55:32 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:55:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC identification wanted In-Reply-To: "Ashley Carder" "Re: DEC identification wanted" (Apr 7, 13:31) References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <10504072255.ZM5901@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 7 2005, 13:31, Ashley Carder wrote: > I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have > two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a > second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 > to another, but I need a "3" button. I now have genuine DEC buttons, but before I got the "2" and "3" I worked out how the numbers are encoded on the fingers, and made my own out of Perspex. Each button was made in five parts: four sides, and a front piece. I cut the pieces from sheet, glued them together with perspex cement, filed the fingers to the correct length, and cemented a piece of acetate sheet to the front for the number. The digit was laserprinted in reverse onto the acetate, so once cemented, it was protected by the acetate itself. Took an evening to make four of them. Kludge alert: Before I made the perspex buttons, I used matchsticks inserted into the finger slots, but I had to re-adjust them periodically because the vibration made them shift. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 7 16:59:55 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:59:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC identification wanted In-Reply-To: "Ashley Carder" "Re: DEC identification wanted" (Apr 7, 13:31) References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> <000801c53b97$ad728070$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <10504072259.ZM5904@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 7 2005, 13:31, Ashley Carder wrote: > I actually could use a "3" button if someone has one. I have > two RL02s and an RL01 on my system. I plan to add a > second RL01 so I can copy images directly from one RL01 > to another, but I need a "3" button. I forgot to mention: my problem was exactly the same: two RL02s and two RL01s, but the pairs were in two adjacent systems. For a while, instead of a terminator on each pair, I had them connected with a spare cable (just make sure only one system tries to access the drives at a time!). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 17:17:05 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:17:05 -0400 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <200504072143.OAA02389@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407181705.00b204a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:43 PM 4/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >> >> I have the schematic of the cable and adapter board somewhere but I won't >>have time to look for them anytime soon. The adapter board has some tricky >>wiring on it and IIRC the cable IS NOT straight through. I've had a hell >>of a time getting non-Intel disk drives to work in the MDSs. I have quite a >>few of the same model drives (with different revision boards) and I haven't >>gotten ANY of them to work in a MDS. Yes, I've set all the jumpers. I've >>spent at least three days trying various drives but never could get one to >>work. My suggestion is to search out an Intel drive in the surplus places. >>Intel sold a LOT of these systems and there used to be a lot of them in the >>surplus equipment places. >> >> Joe >> > >Hi Joe > When I worked at Intel, ( I recall ) I was told that the >M2FM drives had a few capacitors changed in the input amp section >to increase the high frequency response. You might compare >the components from an Intel drive with the same model >drive ( mostly SA800's I thought ). It might be resistors >but it seems like I recall being told it was capacitors. >You could then post this for people that were bringing up >their MDS800's but didn't know where to find drives. > If I get a chance this weekend, I'll look at the drives >I have to see what changes there might be. >Dwight One of the problems is that the "extra" drives I have use completely different boards from those used in the MDSs, even tough they're both Shugart 801 drives. They even have a lot of differently marked jumpers so comparing the two drives is very confusing. Joe From dmabry at mich.com Thu Apr 7 17:43:20 2005 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:43:20 -0400 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050407181705.00b204a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050407181705.00b204a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4255B788.1090908@mich.com> Joe R. wrote: > > One of the problems is that the "extra" drives I have use completely >different boards from those used in the MDSs, even tough they're both >Shugart 801 drives. They even have a lot of differently marked jumpers so >comparing the two drives is very confusing. > > Joe > > > > Joe, Are you saying that you have trouble getting some 801's to work in the MDS? These are drives that you know are otherwise good? Any chance of some photos of the board of those drives? I _think_ I have gotten 800/801's with three different boards to work. Maybe we can compare notes on that. Seems to me that all the different boards have similarly marked jumpers, though. So maybe your drives are different than mine. Dave From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 7 17:50:28 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:50:28 -0500 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <425353B1.3060805@mdrconsult.com> References: <4253416D.1090307@mdrconsult.com> <20050405220748.2de7ddae.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425353B1.3060805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20050407175028.06d7e72f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:12:49 -0400 Doc Shipley wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > > I looked. reputable.com wants $85 for a bare O2 sled. That's a > > little wedge of plastic with a tricky lever on it. Ouch. I paid > > $20 for each for my O2's (missing the sled.) > > Holy crap. I paid $25 for one about 2 months ago. > > Never mind.... ;) > I only have one sled for my two O2's, but got it out of a fifteen dollar auction box that also had five SGI keyboards and mice for the O2. It's really unfortunate that the hard drive sleds become a serious barrier in using a lot of older machines. The original owner just pulls the drive, for security reasons, and never bothers to detach it from the sled and put the sled back. Used HD sleds have become the 'key' item and often cost significantly more than the whole rest of the machine in the used market. I have a military 'portable' (yeah, it has fold down keyboard, LCD,and handles. But it's pretty bulky...) Sparc system here in a VME chassis. It's complete except for the drive and sled. I'm eventually expecting to open the case and somehow mount a SCSI drive directly in the area where the sled originally went. I doubt if sleds for portable military VME chassis SCSI drives are available and/or affordable for mere mortals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 7 17:50:08 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 15:50:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC Floppy Cable, was Re: MFM/RLL data recovery In-Reply-To: <4254B17A.2996C643@rain.org> References: <4254B17A.2996C643@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050407154915.P27846@shell.lmi.net> Is your drive jumpered for "Motor ON on drive select"? On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Are you sure that Drive A on a PC won't work on a straight cable? > Something in the back of my mind says that I used to change the drive > select jumper *AND* make sure a terminator was installed for the floppy > to work fine on a straight cable as Drive A. I do know that not having a > terminator installed (on the last drive of the string) can make for some > really strange and intermittent behavior on both HDs and Floppy Drives. > > > > On the hard drive cable the twist merely changed the drive select signals, > > on the floppy drive cable both the drive select and motor on gets twisted. > > The floppy drive cable must be twisted to have drive A work properly the > > hard drive can work with or without a twist. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 7 18:05:14 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:05:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intellec MDS questions Message-ID: <200504072305.QAA02419@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Mabry" > >Joe R. wrote: > >> >> One of the problems is that the "extra" drives I have use completely >>different boards from those used in the MDSs, even tough they're both >>Shugart 801 drives. They even have a lot of differently marked jumpers so >>comparing the two drives is very confusing. >> >> Joe >> >> >> >> >Joe, > >Are you saying that you have trouble getting some 801's to work in the >MDS? These are drives that you know are otherwise good? Any chance of >some photos of the board of those drives? I _think_ I have gotten >800/801's with three different boards to work. Maybe we can compare >notes on that. Seems to me that all the different boards have similarly >marked jumpers, though. So maybe your drives are different than mine. > >Dave > Hi There were two or three significant rev changes to the SA800/801's. I think only one of these was used with the MDS800's. It seems like I recall there being a letter after the number on the drives that distinguished them from the normal drives. I recall a "R" but I think I may be confusing that letter with hard drives. It might have been something else. Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 7 18:12:14 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: military 'portable' (was: Re: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+)) In-Reply-To: <20050407175028.06d7e72f.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 07, 2005 05:50:28 PM Message-ID: <200504072312.j37NCEHL008445@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have a military 'portable' (yeah, it has fold down keyboard, LCD,and > handles. But it's pretty bulky...) Sparc system here in a VME chassis. > It's complete except for the drive and sled. I'm eventually expecting > to open the case and somehow mount a SCSI drive directly in the area > where the sled originally went. I doubt if sleds for portable military > VME chassis SCSI drives are available and/or affordable for mere > mortals. Interesting, any chance of pictures? I'm wondering if this is the type system I'm thinking of. Are you sure it's an LCD, and not Gas Plasma? Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 18:45:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:45:54 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 9:45 AM, chris wrote: > >My main printer is a LJ 4L. Not PS, which is why the LaserWriter > >interests me. > > Would it maybe be easier to get a postscript simm for the 4L? The 4L and 4ML are stripped-down single-user-oriented printers, not big modular monsters like the IIISi, 4MX, etc. The internal boards for the 4L and 4ML are entirely different (but the engine is the same). There is no PostScript SIMM in a 4ML; everything is soldered to the board, plus the 4L has parallel only, and the 4ML has parallel plus an 8-pin-DIN AppleTalk/LocalTalk connector. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 7 19:00:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The 4L and 4ML are stripped-down single-user-oriented printers, not > big modular monsters like the IIISi, 4MX, etc. The internal boards > for the 4L and 4ML are entirely different (but the engine is the > same). There is no PostScript SIMM in a 4ML; everything is soldered > to the board, plus the 4L has parallel only, and the 4ML has parallel > plus an 8-pin-DIN AppleTalk/LocalTalk connector. Which sub-model of 4 DOES take the Postscript SIMM? I recall one of the colleges that I teach at converted one of their printers to Postscript using a SIMM. On the 2 and 3, (and 2P), I've often used Postscript cartridges. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 18:05:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:05:35 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: <20050407175028.06d7e72f.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <425353B1.3060805@mdrconsult.com> <4253416D.1090307@mdrconsult.com> <20050405220748.2de7ddae.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425353B1.3060805@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407190535.00b17990@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:50 PM 4/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 23:12:49 -0400 >Doc Shipley wrote: > >> Scott Stevens wrote: >> >> > I looked. reputable.com wants $85 for a bare O2 sled. That's a >> > little wedge of plastic with a tricky lever on it. Ouch. I paid >> > $20 for each for my O2's (missing the sled.) >> >> Holy crap. I paid $25 for one about 2 months ago. >> >> Never mind.... ;) >> > >I only have one sled for my two O2's, but got it out of a fifteen dollar >auction box that also had five SGI keyboards and mice for the O2. > >It's really unfortunate that the hard drive sleds become a serious >barrier in using a lot of older machines. The original owner just pulls >the drive, for security reasons, and never bothers to detach it from the >sled and put the sled back. Used HD sleds have become the 'key' item >and often cost significantly more than the whole rest of the machine in >the used market. Are you kidding? I'm FINALLY starting to see some SGI sleds show up in the local surplus equipment. I've put a few on E-bay but they didn't bring much (~$20 for drive & sled). Joe From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 7 19:11:20 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:11:20 EDT Subject: RS/6000 fixed-disk mounts Message-ID: <19e.30f9471f.2f872628@aol.com> Glad to hear about the card. Thank you, Lyle, for answering what must have seemed an idiotic question. It looks like my machine will stay with a loose disk, as the previous owners stripped (what would be) the card guides as well as the mounting card from it (possibly so that the terrorists would be denied internal hard drives?) The 370 was intact, though. - Scott Quinn From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 7 19:53:20 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:53:20 -0500 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 09:39:48 +0100 Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > I'd like to get a straight (ie no X) Unix running on some sort of > older, but not necessarily ancient, hardware. My Micro-11/73 is > not really suitable, and PDP-11s that are seem to be a bit thin > on the ground over here in the UK. I've seen a few Vaxen and > MicroVaxen on the market lately so my thoughts are turning in > that direction. I know a few people here run such machines and I'm > seeking advice on the best machine to look for and, at the risk of > starting a religious war, the best unix to run on it... :-) > If what you're wanting is a Unix prompt on, say, a TTY terminal, you can get any of the very inexpensive 'Lunchbox' Sparc systems (I'd recommend an IPX or IPC, a Classic if you want to be fancy) for pennies. Plug a Macintosh modem cable in the port with a null-modem adapter and you're set. They boot up readily to a console on serial port 1 if there's no keyboard found. And you can run an older Solaris or NetBSD on them really easily. They make nice cheap portable Unix boxes you can slip in and onto any network, i.e. if there are Unixy things you want to do at work without going Linux or installing a PeeCee of any kind. And IPXs are almost free these days. IPCs are not only 'free', they use give-away memory (30 pin 1, 4, or 16 MB simms). From dj.taylor at starpower.net Thu Apr 7 19:55:17 2005 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:55:17 -0400 Subject: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050407205429.01be3650@pop.starpower.net> At 09:03 AM 4/5/2005, you wrote: >First off, if anyone ever needs some server space to just dump stuff, I've >got about a gig of space I can dish out for files and stuff, and ~15 gigs of >b/w a month for usage, over charges are negligable anyway, so feel happy to >have fun with whatever you upload (email me for info) > >Also, I've got an O2 with all sorts of goodies (loaded with ram, analog a/v >board, etc) but no drive sled! I check ebay often but (unless I'm doing >something stupid) I don't see any. You can run the system from an external drive, you don't have to boot the system from the internal drive... >Finally, does anyone have OS (Tru64 or else) that will run on a 3000-300x? >It's got 256 megs ram, and two internal 4.3's that I'm not sure will >actually work, but I've no way to test, anyone who knows anything about this >info I'd love to hear from you. > >Thanks! >-- >Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >KB3HAG - FM19t From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 7 19:49:16 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:49:16 -0500 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200504071949.16276.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 07 April 2005 19:00, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The 4L and 4ML are stripped-down single-user-oriented printers, not > > big modular monsters like the IIISi, 4MX, etc. The internal boards > > for the 4L and 4ML are entirely different (but the engine is the > > same). There is no PostScript SIMM in a 4ML; everything is > > soldered to the board, plus the 4L has parallel only, and the 4ML > > has parallel plus an 8-pin-DIN AppleTalk/LocalTalk connector. > > Which sub-model of 4 DOES take the Postscript SIMM? > > I recall one of the colleges that I teach at converted one of their > printers to Postscript using a SIMM. The 4si (and 4si/mx) took a postscript SIMM. I think that others did as well, but used different SIMMs. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From v.slyngstad at verizon.net Thu Apr 7 20:03:07 2005 From: v.slyngstad at verizon.net (Vince Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 18:03:07 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> I put up some pictures of the switch handles I have cast so far. (It will be clear why I think they're not ready for prime time.) http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/sw-handles.html Vince From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 7 20:05:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ebay: Atlas Computer Original Test Equipment Document s1963 In-Reply-To: <425485C1.E3DD9838@rain.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Good grief, heck of a classification for these things to be posted in! > >From The Register: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14019&item=6167846083&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Starts at 100 pounds and reserve not met! This is pretty consistent with typical eBay auctions for documentation of this age. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 7 20:08:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:08:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050406204110.03cd07c0@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 07:02 PM 4/6/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >And what was the value given? > >(I can't wait to hear this... :) > > I would've thought your first question would've been > "Who did the valuation?" That would've been my second. As it was, a Baseball card collector appraised it(!?) Even though, he still came up with reasonably accurate values. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Apr 7 20:15:38 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 05 01:15:38 GMT Subject: LaserWriter Plus Message-ID: <0504080115.AA27358@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Fred Cisin wrote: > Which sub-model of 4 DOES take the Postscript SIMM? 4Si. I have one, it's one of my favourite printers. 3Si and 4Si are both Canon NX engine, very few differences, but the formatter board is HP, not Canon, and the 4Si one is quite different from the 3Si one. The 3Si one takes discrete ROMs for PostScript and the 4Si one takes a ROM SIMM (I have one in mine of course, since I don't believe in PCL - PostScript forever!). I think this PS ROM SIMM is specific to 4Si and other models using PS ROM SIMMs have different ROMs. MS From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 7 20:25:24 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 20:25:24 -0500 Subject: military 'portable' (was: Re: Server space, SGI O2 drive sled, DEC 3000-300x (Pelican+)) In-Reply-To: <200504072312.j37NCEHL008445@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20050407175028.06d7e72f.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200504072312.j37NCEHL008445@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20050407202524.70460edc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 16:12:14 -0700 (PDT) "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > I have a military 'portable' (yeah, it has fold down keyboard, > > LCD,and handles. But it's pretty bulky...) Sparc system here in a > > VME chassis. It's complete except for the drive and sled. I'm > > eventually expecting to open the case and somehow mount a SCSI drive > > directly in the area where the sled originally went. I doubt if > > sleds for portable military VME chassis SCSI drives are available > > and/or affordable for mere mortals. > > Interesting, any chance of pictures? I'm wondering if this is the > type system I'm thinking of. Are you sure it's an LCD, and not Gas > Plasma? > > Zane > > I'll try to put together a web page of pictures this weekend. It's a machine that's languished in the corner of the living room long enough. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 7 20:25:29 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:25:29 EDT Subject: SGI Indy keyboard Message-ID: <127.59b8ed0d.2f873789@aol.com> I'm not sure what Greg means about missing features- I have both SGI and PC PS/2 keyboards, and I can't see much of a difference (the older SGI keyboards are quite nice keyboards, though). In fact, a number of Indy-era keyboards (newer granite) were made under contract by NMB, and, since they are "NetWare approved" I don't think they made many changes from their PC keyboards. -Scott Quinn Attribution Error: Lyle replied about the 4D parts, Patrick was the one who answered the RS/6000 question. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 7 19:45:09 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 01:45:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: New book In-Reply-To: <20050406214244.A987@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Apr 6, 5 09:49:15 pm Message-ID: > > For 'history', I've got 'Automatic Digital Computers' by M. V. Wilkes, > > which I will not sell at _any_ price (well, it's autographed, OK...). > > Wilkes name!?! Yow... I have a 2nd ed of that book (paid $9 for), Well, there'd be little point in having it autographed by Martin Richards (BCPL chap), now would there :-) Seriously, I bought it from a school library sale for (IIRC) 30p. I happend to attend a lecture by Professor Wilkes about 20 years ago, and I asked him if he'd autograph the book. He did. > it's ex-library, somewhat ratty, it's a great book in many ways, Yes, mine has got the libray stamps on the first couple of pages :-( > and shows the pretty high level of software sophistication in > 1950. (runtime linking loaders). 1st ed's now got for $1500! Mine just says '1st printing 1956'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 7 19:48:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 01:48:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <4254C0F2.10609@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 6, 5 11:11:14 pm Message-ID: > > Tom Jennings wrote: > >> For a stored program, automatic, digital, computer, the thing that > > distinguishes it from other human artifacts is this one > > simple-seeming thing: the machine that modifies itself. Problem is, AFIAK this list is not just about stored-program digital computers... Analogue machines are on-topic, so arguably are machines that can't change their own program. > > > The main point I remember about computer defs is 'They do stupid simple > things really fast." Quote from the preface of the TRS80 microcomputer technical reference handbook (for the model 1 of course). 'If you are a technical person, but have never played around with microprocessors, dive right in! A computer is nothing more than a fast idiot. Don't let the "idiot" intimidate you. All of the familiar logic is there; there just may be more of it than you're used to seeing in one place.' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 7 19:36:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 01:36:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <000201c53b0d$5afd71e0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> from "xyz" at Apr 6, 5 08:01:32 pm Message-ID: > > I recently purchased an MDS 800 without a disk drive. It does have a = > controller and cable to the backplane for a disk drive. Do you have a = > schematic for the PCB and a wiring diagram of the PCB to backplane = > cable. I have some old SA801 drives and a power supply that I could = > use. I've got the double-density diskette system schematics here... I think the drive cabinet may well be the same for the single density one too. OK, there are basically 4 parts to the cabling : 1) Controller board top edge connectors to DC37 sockets on the back of the MDS800 2) DC37 plug to 50 pin Blue Ribbon plug cable (MDS to drive box external cable) 3) 50 pin blue ribbon socket to 2 50 pin header sockets ribbon cable (drive box internal cable) 4) The little PCB on the back of the drive. Number 3 is a straight-through IDC cable. Here's some info on the others... 1 : Edge connector (double sided 50 pin) ---- DC 37 sockets (J8 == drives 0,1 ; J9 == drives 2,3) A21 ----- J8/1 INDEX 01/ B21 ------J8/20 A12 ----- J8/2 READY 1/ B12 ----- J8/21 A15 ----- J8/3 READY 0/ B15 ----- J8/22 A10 ----- J8/4 WPROT 01/ B10 ----- J8/23 A5 ----- J8/5 WRT DAT 01/ B5 ----- J8/24 A16 ----- J8/6 FILE INOP 01/ B16 ----- J8/25 A19 ----- J8/7 TRACK 00 -01/ B19 ----- J8/26 A3 ----- J8/8 DIR 01/ B3 ----- J8/27 A30 ----- J8/9 INOP RESET 01/ B30 ----- J8/28 A1 ----- J8/11 STEP 01/ B1 ----- J8/30 A7 ----- J8/12 WRT GT 01/ B7 ----- J8/31 A24 ----- J8/13 DRV SEL 1/ B24 ----- J8/32 A27 ----- J8/14 LED 0/ B27 ----- J8/33 A18 ----- J8/15 READ DATA 01/ B18 ----- J8/34 A33 ----- J8/16 LED 1/ B33 ----- J8/35 A23 ----- J8/17 DRV SEL 0/ B23 ----- J8/36 A28 ----- J8/18 TRACK >43 -01/ B28 ----- J8/37 A20 ----- J9/1 |NDEX 23/ B20 ------J9/20 A11 ----- J9/2 READY 3/ B11 ----- J9/21 A13 ----- J9/3 READY 2/ B13 ----- J9/22 A9 ----- J9/4 WPROT 23/ B9 ----- J9/23 A6 ----- J9/5 WRT DAT 23 B6 ----- J9/24 A17 ----- J9/6 FILE INOP 23/ B17 ----- J9/25 A22 ----- J9/7 TRACK 00-23/ B22 ----- J9/26 A4 ----- J9/8 DIR 23/ B4 ----- J9/27 A31 ----- J9/9 INOP RESET 23/ B31 ----- J9/28 A2 ----- J9/11 STEP 23/ B2 ----- J9/30 A8 ----- J9/12 WRT GT 23/ B8 ----- J9/31 A26 ----- J9/13 DRV SEL 3/ B26 ----- J9/32 A32 ----- J9/14 LED 2/ B32 ----- J9/33 A14 ----- J9/15 READ DATA 23 B14 ----- J9/34 A34 ----- J9/16 LED 3/ B34 ----- J9/35 A25 ----- J9/17 DRV SEL 2 / B25 ----- J9/36 A29 ----- J9/18 TRACK > 43 - 23/ B29 ----- J9/37 All B-side pins ground. 2 : DC37 50 pin Blue RIbbon 1 8 INDEX / 20 7 2 30 READY 1/ 21 29 3 28 READY 0/ 22 27 4 36 WPROT/ 23 35 5 18 WRT DATA/ 24 17 6 44 FILE INOP/ 25 43 7 6 TRACK 00/ 26 5 8 14 DIR/ 27 13 9 46 INOP RESET/ 28 45 11 12 STEP/ 30 11 12 16 WRT GT/ 31 15 13 22 DRV SEL 1/ 32 21 14 47 LED 0/ 33 48 15 2 READ DATA/ 34 1 16 49 LED 1/ 35 50 17 20 DRV SEL 0/ 36 19 18 10 TRACK > 43/ 37 9 4 : PCB On back of drive : All odd pins (both conenctors grounded Cable Drive 2 46 READ DATA/ 4 N/C 6 42 TTACK 00/ 8 20 INDEX/ 10 16 TRACK > 43/ 12 36 STEP/ 14 34 DIR/ 16 40 WRT GT/ 18 38 WRT DATA/ 20 or 22 26 and 28 DRV SEL (cable pin jumper-selected) 24 N/C 26 N/C 28 or 30 28 READY (cable pin jumper-selected) 32 N/C 34 N/C 36 44 WPROT/ 38 48 READ DATA SEP/ (Single density systems only?) 40 N/C 42 50 READ CLK SEP/ (Single Density systems only?) 44 N/C 46 N/C 48 N/C 50 N/C Hope that helps... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 7 20:05:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:05:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Apple LaserWriters and HP LaserJets In-Reply-To: <20050407125023.45650.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Apr 7, 5 05:50:23 am Message-ID: > > I remember becoming LaserJet certified in 1989, and > after taking the class, 2 other students and I had to > break down a LaserJet I and put it back together. I am not laserjet cerrtified (or anything-else certified for that matter), but let me tell you a little story... Over 10 years ago I was given a broken Canon LBP8-A1 printer. This is actually the same as an LJ1 with different ROMs (HP used the Canon formatter board in the LJ1). Well, it didn't take me long, even then, to find a dead HAL (mask-programmed version of a PAL) chip on the formatter board. Canon, of course were totally unhelpful. No replacement chips, not even a replacement board (I didn't know about The PrinterWorks back then). But I had a PERQ, and I remmebered reading somewhere on Usenet that the PERQ had an optional laserprinter controller board that talked to a thing called a CX-VDO (which I'd never heard of). >From the same haul that I got the PERQ T4 from, I also got several incomplete optional I/O boards from the PERQ. It turned out I had enough of the hard-to-get chips to make an ethernet_and_canon version, I'd have to add a few TTL parts, etc. So, armed with the PERQ schematics book I set to and did that (well, might as well stick all the options I can in the PERQ, even if I can't get a CX-VDO printer). I even wire-wrapped the QIC-02 tape interface in the corner of that board. I then took the Canon LBP8-A1 apart. Totally apart. I don't just mean into modules, I mean that everything that could come apart came apart. I stripped down the main drive motor. I striped the optical scanner assembly. I traced out schematics. I figured out how the darn thing should work. I then noticed something very interesting. Bob Davis had sent me the wirelist of the PERQ to printer cable. The printer end was a DC37 plug. And if you made a striaght-though cable between a DC37 socket and the 34 pin header on the DC controller in that LBP8A1, the connector that the formatter plugged into (and remember the formatter was the defective part, so getting rid of that would be a Good Thing, then the inputs, outputs, differential signals, etc matched up correctly. It had to be worth a try. I got the printer back together, and got it to print the engine test page. It was remarkably easy to line up the scanner using the IR detector I use for testing rmeote controls. Everything seemed to coue up correctly. So I made up the necessary ribbon cable, made a PERQ printer cable, and put it all togehter. I'd like to say it worked, but that would be a lie. It _almost_ worked. In particular, it did eject a page when I tried to print something from the PERQ. There was even a little column, 16 pixels wide, of printed data. It was my fault. I'd forgotten a kludgewire round the FIFOs on the PERQ interface board. Fitting that, it worked. The only thing missing was the status LED panel. I desoldered bits from the HP control panel (LEDs, switches, 7 segment displayes), leaving 5 LEDs and their series resistors). Soldered a bit of ribbon cable to that, with a socket on the end to fit the right connector on the DC controller. I'd identified the signals with a logic probe beforehand (they're things like 'ready', 'paper out', etc.). Made a new overlay for the panel, put it back in place. It's not original but it works. So I may not be certified, but I think I know a little bit about the insides of these printers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 7 20:25:38 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:25:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <000801c53ba9$f2cd74b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 7, 5 02:42:34 pm Message-ID: > Just my own two millidollars worth ;) Don't you mean twenty millidollars? -tony From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Thu Apr 7 19:53:31 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:53:31 +1100 Subject: Laserjet 4si Postscript SIMM was Re: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <200504071949.16276.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050408115331.008de320@pop-server> At 07:49 PM 4/7/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Thursday 07 April 2005 19:00, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > The 4L and 4ML are stripped-down single-user-oriented printers, not >> > big modular monsters like the IIISi, 4MX, etc. The internal boards >> > for the 4L and 4ML are entirely different (but the engine is the >> > same). There is no PostScript SIMM in a 4ML; everything is >> > soldered to the board, plus the 4L has parallel only, and the 4ML >> > has parallel plus an 8-pin-DIN AppleTalk/LocalTalk connector. >> >> Which sub-model of 4 DOES take the Postscript SIMM? >> >> I recall one of the colleges that I teach at converted one of their >> printers to Postscript using a SIMM. > >The 4si (and 4si/mx) took a postscript SIMM. I think that others did as >well, but used different SIMMs. If I remember correctly the 4si takes the C2013-60001 postscript SIMM as pictured here: http://tinypic.com/2me5ap If anyone needs it they can have it for AU$10 + shipping from Australia (between AU$6 and AU$43.50 depending on who fast you want it). From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 7 21:57:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 19:57:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, C Fernandez wrote: > I joined several local lists. Much of what is offered seems to be kids > clothing and toys. I did get rid of a leaking, but fixable, fish tank > the day after I joined. I must have had about 15 people wanting it. I got a nice AT&T Word Processor so far ;) > I'm thinking of offering the broken chunks of cement that I have in my > backyard..... I probably won't get to many takers for that one :-) Oh yes you would. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From djg at drs-c4i.com Thu Apr 7 22:06:30 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:06:30 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 QBOL or DIBOL Message-ID: <200504080306.j3836Uu31904@drs-c4i.com> Some DIBOL information is in the COS-310 manuals http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/query.pl?Search=cos&stype=Partial+Word&dtype=Document+Sets The COS images under ftp://ftp.pdp8.net/images/ may have some DIBOL/QBOL software. Also probably the ETOS image has some. I probably have more around. If you find you need more email me in two weeks and I may have time to look more. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 22:14:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:14:09 -0400 Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: References: <000201c53b0d$5afd71e0$6401a8c0@xyzd7601097f4e> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407231409.00b20c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Good info, Tony! I have a lot of it already but it's all crude paper drawings, this is nicely organized so I'll save it in my permanent archives. Joe At 01:36 AM 4/8/05 +0100, you wrote: >> >> I recently purchased an MDS 800 without a disk drive. It does have a = >> controller and cable to the backplane for a disk drive. Do you have a = >> schematic for the PCB and a wiring diagram of the PCB to backplane = >> cable. I have some old SA801 drives and a power supply that I could = >> use. > >I've got the double-density diskette system schematics here... I think >the drive cabinet may well be the same for the single density one too. > >OK, there are basically 4 parts to the cabling : From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 22:08:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:08:20 -0400 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407230820.00b27770@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Those look pretty dammed good to me! How about posting some details about how you made the molds and what you used to cast the handles, etc etc? Joe At 06:03 PM 4/7/05 -0700, you wrote: >I put up some pictures of the switch handles I have cast so far. (It will >be clear why I think they're not ready for prime time.) > >http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/sw-handles.html > > Vince > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 7 22:12:22 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:12:22 -0400 Subject: SGI Indy keyboard In-Reply-To: <127.59b8ed0d.2f873789@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050407231222.00b2ac30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:25 PM 4/7/05 -0400, Scott wrote: >I'm not sure what Greg means about missing features- I have both SGI and PC >PS/2 keyboards, and I can't see much of a difference (the older SGI keyboards >are quite nice keyboards, though). In fact, a number of Indy-era keyboards >(newer granite) were made under contract by NMB, and, since they are "NetWare >approved" I don't think they made many changes from their PC keyboards. They didn't make ANY that I can see. I'm typing this on a granite PC keyboard with Noteworthy's name on it. I've compared it closely with several SGI granite keyboards that I have here and they're IDENTICAL except for the sticker with the name. Joe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 7 22:32:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:32:57 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 8:53 PM, Scott Stevens wrote: > And IPXs are almost free these days. IPCs are not only 'free', they use > give-away memory (30 pin 1, 4, or 16 MB simms). Agreed, but if one has a source of 32MB (not 16MB) parity 72-pin SIMMs (36-bits), a pair of them goes nicely in a SPARCclassic or LX, along with 4 16MB 36-bit 72-pin SIMMs to load up the box to the max 96MB, a respectable amount if one is not running X. IPXs, IPCs, SPARC1s, etc., all suffer from one weakness... dead or dying NVRAM batteries. There are answers in the Sun NVRAM FAQ, but one does have to be aware of the issue before the machine comes up inert (FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF MAC address) one day. -ethan From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 7 23:59:51 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 21:59:51 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <3.0.6.32.20050407230820.00b27770@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Those look pretty dammed good to me! How about posting some details > about how you made the molds and what you used to cast the handles, etc etc? Thanks! Sure. I put up some pictures at http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/molds.html. Vince From jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com Fri Apr 8 00:15:53 2005 From: jdaviscl2 at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New owner of a Sun 3/80 Message-ID: <61052.207.71.246.177.1112937353.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Hi, I just picked up a Sun 3/80 chassis from the local university surplus. It looked lonely sitting there. It's dusty inside but appears to work (checked console via serial port). Has a floppy, 8MB memory, no hard drive, and a dead NVRAM. I'll consult the various faq's on the web about the NVRAM, and maybe drill some mounting holes for a hard drive (didn't come with a hd carrier, and I can't find any). I'll run it headless with netbsd, since I don't have room for another monitor. I don't know much about the Sun 3 series though - most of what I see from a google search is about the 3/50 and 3/60's. Is the 3/80 an ignored bastard child from sun? A 68030 in a pizzabox, not a classic Sun 3, but not a Sparc either? Are the hd carriers hard to come by? Thanks, Jeff From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 8 00:37:14 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:37:14 -0700 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: At 7:53 PM -0500 4/7/05, Scott Stevens wrote: >And IPXs are almost free these days. IPCs are not only 'free', they use >give-away memory (30 pin 1, 4, or 16 MB simms). Shoot, systems a lot better than those are free or almost free. I got my Sun Ultra 60/2300 basically for free from a friend. Take a look on eBay and see what low-end Sun Ultra systems, or a SGI system goes for these days! A sizable portion of these systems price is the shipping. Either a Sun or SGI dual CPU system with a decent amount of RAM and a good framebuffer makes a *very* nice system (though I only have a single CPU SGI O2). Even a bottom-end SGI O2 180Mhz R5000 (the model with no CPU cache to speak of) is amazingly responsive under a *heavy* load. While I *really* like SGI systems, I'd have to recommend a similarly configured Sun system. I'm guessing older IBM RS/6000's and HP PA-RISC systems are available dirt cheap as well, I've not looked into either, as I'm not interested in collecting Unix systems. Where you might end up paying some serious money is on specific options (especially SCSI adapters faster than UW-SCSI, or Gigabit Ethernet). Also in the case of SGI systems, OS Kit's cost a serious amount (I tend to suspect the same is true for IBM and HP systems). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 8 00:39:54 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:39:54 -0700 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: At 10:24 PM +0100 4/7/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: >On Apr 7 2005, 8:59, Stan Barr wrote: > >> My 11/73 has quite a small hard disk and small memory, and I'd like >> to keep it running RT-11 as it has some sort of colour frame-buffer >> card and the software for that is RT-11 (though I've not figured it >> out yet - must take the covers off and see exactly *what* the card >> is!) > >Sounds interesting! No kidding! I've got a 3rd party framebuffer for my PDP-11/73, but have never gotten it working, in part because I'm not sure what it would take to hook up a monitor or even what type monitor would be needed. In my case I've got drivers for RSX-11M, but they existed for RT-11, and maybe other OS's. One of these days I really need to figure out how to get a monitor attached. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 01:03:34 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:03:34 -0400 Subject: New owner of a Sun 3/80 In-Reply-To: <61052.207.71.246.177.1112937353.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> References: <61052.207.71.246.177.1112937353.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 1:15 AM, Jeff Davis wrote: > Hi, I just picked up a Sun 3/80 chassis from the local university surplus... Isn't that the Sun3 in a SPARC1 chassis? Neat find. > I'll consult the various faq's on the web about the NVRAM, and maybe > drill some mounting holes for a hard drive (didn't come with a hd carrier, and > I can't find any). See if you can find some SPARC1/SPARC2. I also used some washers and screws for my first SPARC1 before I found some drive sleds. > I don't know much about the Sun 3 series though - most of what I see from a > google search is about the 3/50 and 3/60's. Is the 3/80 an ignored bastard > child from sun? A 68030 in a pizzabox, not a classic Sun 3, but not a Sparc > either? There were a lot of 3/50s and 3/60s shipped. I think the 3/80 was a last stab for customers with a large investment in 68K hardware/software, but with an upgrade path to the new SPARC line. As a result, I don't think many 3/80s were shipped compared to what came before and what came after. I don't know if 3/80s use the same 48T02s that were used in sun4c machines, but it's likely. I'm not sure if they are still available new, but with some careful surgery, it's possible to disconnect the old battery and add taps for a new one. Do not remove the entire top, though... there's at least a crystal and perhaps a couple passive components attached at the other end. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 01:18:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:18:29 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 1:37 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Shoot, systems a lot better than those are free or almost free. I > got my Sun Ultra 60/2300 basically for free from a friend. Wow! I wish I had friends like that. I'd be happy for an Ultra5 for free or nearly free. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 01:24:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:24:23 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 1:39 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > No kidding! I've got a 3rd party framebuffer for my PDP-11/73, but > have never gotten it working, in part because I'm not sure what it > would take to hook up a monitor or even what type monitor would be > needed. In my case I've got drivers for RSX-11M, but they existed > for RT-11, and maybe other OS's. Interesting... I have a Qbus framebuffer, too. I got it from my old boss from a project where we built a QA training station for an ultrasonic inspector. My (MACRO-11) code would slice a portion of a large (multi-megabyte) data file and display just the desired component (out of a tray of dozens) on the screen at 1000-pixels-per-inch resolution on a 512x512 screen. It happened that we were manupulating grey scale data, but the framebuffer would do color. The card has three odd LIMO-like connectors for RGB-sync-on-green and that's it. I have one cable (for the green channel, naturally). I have *no* idea if there are drivers for anything aside from RT-11, since that's what I was given for the project. I still have a few listings, and I _may_ have an RL01 and/or RL02 pack with source code. I'd be interestded to see pictures of your framebuffer. Mine is accessible, but not here, so if desired, I could do the same. -ethan From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 01:26:03 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:26:03 +0800 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: Wow! Those look DAMNED good to me!! :-) Congrats on the effort... Once you get the process down, please document the materials and the techniques so that it may be replicated easily. Once we get the plastic stuff down, they'll be no reason for any classiccmp to remain unrestored... /wai-sun From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 8 00:20:21 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 01:20:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New owner of a Sun 3/80 In-Reply-To: <61052.207.71.246.177.1112937353.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> References: <61052.207.71.246.177.1112937353.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Message-ID: <200504080642.CAA29469@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I don't know much about the Sun 3 series though - most of what I see > from a google search is about the 3/50 and 3/60's. Is the 3/80 an > ignored bastard child from sun? Somewhat, but not nearly so much so as the 386i. :-) > A 68030 in a pizzabox, not a classic Sun 3, but not a Sparc either? Right. I've seen it said that the 3/80 was Sun hedging their bets. They were betting that the SPARC would take off. But they weren't quite ready to bet everything on it, so they did the 3/80 at about the same time - you may note how singularly similar the 3/80 is in sokme respects (such as case style) to the early SPARCstations. > Are the hd carriers hard to come by? Can't help you much there. I don't think I've ever owned a -3/80. I have a rather fuzzy memory from when I worked with them that the drive sleds were the same as for the SS1 and SS1+, but that could very well be wrong. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 8 02:12:58 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:12:58 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 Framebuffers (Re: Unix on old-ish machines) In-Reply-To: References: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: At 2:24 AM -0400 4/8/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Apr 8, 2005 1:39 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> No kidding! I've got a 3rd party framebuffer for my PDP-11/73, but >> have never gotten it working, in part because I'm not sure what it >> would take to hook up a monitor or even what type monitor would be >> needed. In my case I've got drivers for RSX-11M, but they existed >> for RT-11, and maybe other OS's. > >Interesting... I have a Qbus framebuffer, too. I got it from my old >boss from a project where we built a QA training station for an >ultrasonic inspector. My (MACRO-11) code would slice a portion of a >large (multi-megabyte) data file and display just the desired >component (out of a tray of dozens) on the screen at >1000-pixels-per-inch resolution on a 512x512 screen. It happened that >we were manupulating grey scale data, but the framebuffer would do >color. The card has three odd LIMO-like connectors for >RGB-sync-on-green and that's it. I have one cable (for the green >channel, naturally). Is what you have the DEC board? It looks like the board I have is either 768x574 or 512x384 depending on the number of colours. I don't have any sort of a cable for it, BUT I have the manuals. The board in question came from a computer that was hooked up to an Electron Microscope. >I have *no* idea if there are drivers for anything aside from RT-11, >since that's what I was given for the project. I still have a few >listings, and I _may_ have an RL01 and/or RL02 pack with source code. I'm guessing there is support for RSX-11M/M+ no matter what the board, mine supports RT-11, RSX-11M/M+, VMS, and Unix. >I'd be interestded to see pictures of your framebuffer. Mine is >accessible, but not here, so if desired, I could do the same. Now that you mention it, I realize I'm really not sure where it is. The odds are it's somewhere in one of the boxes of Q-Bus boards around here, rather than up in storage. I do know where the manuals are and it appears that it is called a "Supervisor Single Board Display (SBD)", and the board is based on the 68k. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 8 02:42:27 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 03:42:27 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> I added a piggyback battery to my IPX successfully. It isn't a hard procedure at all. I managed to make it hard, Though. I was trying to over do it, and ended up undoing things that didn't work. Also, don't solder up the battery while watching TV..... I wasn't paying attention and reversed the polarity and ruined the first battery. I was a bit upset with myself for messing up a simple job. Now that I've done it once, I can't see any reason to by a replacement nvram. I can run to Radio Shack, buy a battery, and have it fixed the same day. The nvram faq actually sounded discouraging when referencing the procedure. However, I think it's the best solution. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ethan Dicks wrote: > IPXs, IPCs, SPARC1s, etc., all suffer from one weakness... dead or > dying NVRAM batteries. There are answers in the Sun NVRAM FAQ, but > one does have to be aware of the issue before the machine comes up > inert (FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF MAC address) one day. > > -ethan > > From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Apr 8 02:44:23 2005 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 00:44:23 -0700 Subject: Obscure DOS question References: <20050330184644.764a3348.chenmel@earthlink.net> <6.2.0.14.0.20050404134226.04856680@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <002c01c53c0e$c83cbe80$6401a8c0@hal9000> Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 5:47 AM Subject: Re: Obscure DOS question > At 20:56 02/04/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >On Wed, 30 Mar 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > > Couldn't you use the DOS subst command to fake out the C: drive to some > > > higher-level folder, i.e. make your D:\scratch folder into the C: drive? > > > Directories don't have the filesystem limits that the root directory of > > > C: does. > > > > > > This of course, would 'map over' your C: drive (is that allowed by subst > > > ?) > > > >DOS 3.3 doesn't allow this, otherwise the solution would've been simple ;) > > Is this a restriction on being unable to map "c:", or being unable to map > out the boot drive (in which case the solution is simple - boot off > something else, e.g. "a:") > > I have seen boot procedures in later versions of DOS swap around drive > letters after boot (usually diagnostic boot discs that set up a ram disc as > C:, and have the original drive somewhere else). Is there a mechanism in > 3.30 to do something similar? > > Rob > Rob, Unfortunately DOS 3.3 has no such provisions. Regards, Steven C. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 8 02:55:20 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 08:55:20 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:24:46 BST." <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200504080755.IAA01805@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Pete Turnbull said: > On Apr 7 2005, 8:59, Stan Barr wrote: > > > My 11/73 has quite a small hard disk and small memory, and I'd like > > to keep it running RT-11 as it has some sort of colour frame-buffer > > card and the software for that is RT-11 (though I've not figured it > > out yet - must take the covers off and see exactly *what* the card > > is!) > > Sounds interesting! Yep, it has a few rows of colour-coded bnc sockets on the back and a couple of intriguing looking ribbon cables with idc connectors exiting out the back where it was originally connected to some petrochemical analysis equipment, I think. I'm just getting round to sorting it out properly (and getting the floppy to work!). > > Still having difficulties with transport, may be going to Bradford > soon > > and York is not much further - we'll see... > > OK. I really can give you an Indy, if that's an incentive, and we're > just off the A64, not right in York. That is an incentive! My friend is talking of going to Doncaster racecourse which is not far away, so I'll try to be a bit persuasive :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 04:11:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:11:03 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 Framebuffers (Re: Unix on old-ish machines) In-Reply-To: References: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 3:12 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is what you have the DEC board? I should have been more specific... this is _not_ a DEC board. >I do know where the manuals are and it appears that it is called > a "Supervisor Single Board > Display (SBD)", and the board is based on the 68k. I think mine has a 6845. I'm sure doesn't have its own CPU. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 04:30:54 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 05:30:54 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 3:42 AM, C Fernandez wrote: > I added a piggyback battery to my IPX successfully... > > Now that I've done it once, I can't see any reason to by a replacement > nvram. I can run to Radio Shack, buy a battery, and have it fixed the > same day. The nvram faq actually sounded discouraging when referencing > the procedure. However, I think it's the best solution. I gave my battery replacement a little twist... when I broke the connections between the battery and the underlying chip, I attached a 9V battery lead to the chip in place of the factory battery. I then soldered on a PC-mount 3V Li cell (3032?) onto a former 9V battery top. I did it that way so I could replace the battery again later without having to solder at the chip a second time. I did a similar trick when I was faced with a dead Dallas DS1287 clock/SRAM. Used the same Li cell, too, for the test. -ethan From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 05:40:56 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:40:56 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <26c11a6405040803401118f606@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2005 7:18 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 8, 2005 1:37 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Shoot, systems a lot better than those are free or almost free. I > > got my Sun Ultra 60/2300 basically for free from a friend. > > Wow! I wish I had friends like that. I'd be happy for an Ultra5 for > free or nearly free. > > -ethan > I got one (Ultra 5) from ebay about 3 months ago, 360mhz 256mb 9gb cdrom fro ?30. Dan From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Apr 8 06:44:07 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 06:44:07 -0500 Subject: SGI Indy keyboard In-Reply-To: <127.59b8ed0d.2f873789@aol.com> References: <127.59b8ed0d.2f873789@aol.com> Message-ID: <42566E87.1010802@vzavenue.net> Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: >I'm not sure what Greg means about missing features- I have both SGI and PC >PS/2 keyboards, and I can't see much of a difference (the older SGI keyboards >are quite nice keyboards, though). In fact, a number of Indy-era keyboards >(newer granite) were made under contract by NMB, and, since they are "NetWare >approved" I don't think they made many changes from their PC keyboards. >-Scott Quinn > > > > > I was wondering the same thing. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Fri Apr 8 06:47:29 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 06:47:29 -0500 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> Message-ID: <42566F51.8010407@vzavenue.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Apr 8, 2005 3:42 AM, C Fernandez wrote: > > >>I added a piggyback battery to my IPX successfully... >> >>Now that I've done it once, I can't see any reason to by a replacement >>nvram. I can run to Radio Shack, buy a battery, and have it fixed the >>same day. The nvram faq actually sounded discouraging when referencing >>the procedure. However, I think it's the best solution. >> >> > >I gave my battery replacement a little twist... when I broke the >connections between the battery and the underlying chip, I attached a >9V battery lead to the chip in place of the factory battery. I then >soldered on a PC-mount 3V Li cell (3032?) onto a former 9V battery >top. I did it that way so I could replace the battery again later >without having to solder at the chip a second time. > >I did a similar trick when I was faced with a dead Dallas DS1287 >clock/SRAM. Used the same Li cell, too, for the test. > >-ethan > > > I solder a 3v coin cell "borrowed" from a dead PeeCee motherboard to the top of the NVRAM chip and secure it with a little hot glue. Easy replacement in the future. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 07:40:13 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:40:13 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> Message-ID: <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2005 10:30 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 8, 2005 3:42 AM, C Fernandez wrote: > > I added a piggyback battery to my IPX successfully... > > > > Now that I've done it once, I can't see any reason to by a replacement > > nvram. I can run to Radio Shack, buy a battery, and have it fixed the > > same day. The nvram faq actually sounded discouraging when referencing > > the procedure. However, I think it's the best solution. > > I gave my battery replacement a little twist... when I broke the > connections between the battery and the underlying chip, I attached a > 9V battery lead to the chip in place of the factory battery. I then > soldered on a PC-mount 3V Li cell (3032?) onto a former 9V battery > top. I did it that way so I could replace the battery again later > without having to solder at the chip a second time. I don't suppose there's anywhere online with a very simple illustrated step-by-step guide on how to do this, is there? My IPX is dead, I can just about solder without burning myself - on a good day - and I'd love to fix it. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 8 07:45:26 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Liam Proven wrote: > I don't suppose there's anywhere online with a very simple illustrated > step-by-step guide on how to do this, is there? My IPX is dead, I can > just about solder without burning myself - on a good day - and I'd > love to fix it. http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 8 03:35:07 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:35:07 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Apr 2005 22:39:54 PDT." Message-ID: <200504080835.JAA02584@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Zane H. Healy said: > At 10:24 PM +0100 4/7/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On Apr 7 2005, 8:59, Stan Barr wrote: > > > >> My 11/73 has quite a small hard disk and small memory, and I'd like > >> to keep it running RT-11 as it has some sort of colour frame-buffer > >> card and the software for that is RT-11 (though I've not figured it > >> out yet - must take the covers off and see exactly *what* the card > >> is!) > > > >Sounds interesting! > > No kidding! I've got a 3rd party framebuffer for my PDP-11/73, but > have never gotten it working, in part because I'm not sure what it > would take to hook up a monitor or even what type monitor would be > needed. When I get a round tuit I'll hook up the scope to the bnc outputs on mine and see what comes out, I should be able to figure out what sort of monitor is needed, there aren't that many common options. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 8 03:40:09 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:40:09 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Apr 2005 02:24:23 EDT." Message-ID: <200504080840.JAA02637@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ethan Dicks said: > I'd be interestded to see pictures of your framebuffer. Mine is > accessible, but not here, so if desired, I could do the same. When I summon up the strength to get my Micro 11/73 out of the home-made vertical rack (not easy with my bad back!) I'll take pictures of mine too. From the sockets on the back it appears to have RGB and sync outputs. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 8 08:44:27 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:44:27 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> I'm rapidly approaching the point where I will need to learn how to use an oscilloscope as part of my quest to learn more about debugging the old DEC hardware. What kind of advice can folks offer to me about a decent scope and some info on how to use one? I think I used one 30 years ago in school, but it's been so long that I remember little-to-nothing about it. One of my first exercises might be to attempt a head alignment on an RK05 drive using an alignment pack. I have all the documentation for the drive maintenance, etc. What kind of scope would I need and how much does one cost? Are there any good web sites that would give some basic info on "scopes for dummies" or "scopes for beginners"? Thanks in advance for your advice. This is a never-ending learning experience. Ashley From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 8 08:56:42 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:56:42 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you need to get the Tektronix 645B. They are widely available 2nd hand, look at your favourite auction website for one. Proces vary between $100 and $200. No idea though where to find a website teaching scope usage, but maybe Tony Duell know a few???? Ed > I'm rapidly approaching the point where I will > need to learn how to use an oscilloscope as part > of my quest to learn more about debugging the > old DEC hardware. What kind of advice can folks > offer to me about a decent scope and some info on > how to use one? I think I used one 30 years ago > in school, but it's been so long that I remember > little-to-nothing about it. > > One of my first exercises might be to attempt > a head alignment on an RK05 drive using an > alignment pack. I have all the documentation > for the drive maintenance, etc. > > What kind of scope would I need and how much does > one cost? Are there any good web sites that > would give some basic info on "scopes for dummies" > or "scopes for beginners"? > > Thanks in advance for your advice. This is > a never-ending learning experience. > > Ashley > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Apr 8 09:00:06 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:00:06 -0500 Subject: PDP11 H960 rack side panel In-Reply-To: <00a301c53a16$59f13a40$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050408085751.0255b108@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi, I need a single DEC PDP11 H960 rack side panel to complete my setup. Would anyone in the NW Indiana area have an extra that you would be willing to part with? I am willing to trade, etc. Thanks! --tom From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 8 08:59:20 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:59:20 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought References: <200504070759.IAA21656@citadel.metropolis.local> <10504072224.ZM5822@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <16982.36408.860000.17257@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Apr 8, 2005 1:39 AM, Zane H. Healy Ethan> wrote: >> No kidding! I've got a 3rd party framebuffer for my PDP-11/73, >> but have never gotten it working, in part because I'm not sure >> what it would take to hook up a monitor or even what type monitor >> would be needed. In my case I've got drivers for RSX-11M, but >> they existed for RT-11, and maybe other OS's. Ethan> Interesting... I have a Qbus framebuffer, too. ... Some of the early VAXstation display controllers -- certainly the mono frame buffer, and probably the first color controller ("Kaylith") are likely to work just fine on PDP11s, though I don't know if that was ever done at DEC. For monitors -- you might just try a regular TV scan frequency monitor (VR201 class). Failing that, an older multisync PC monitor is bound to work, once you construct the right adapter to make the wires hook up. paul From cfandt at netsync.net Fri Apr 8 09:00:55 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:00:55 -0400 Subject: New find & HP-UX p/w? was: Re: RGB-to-VGA adapter In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> Some of you recall my plea for assistance a couple of weeks ago under the subject "RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ?" : Upon the date 19:55 24-03-05, Christian R. Fandt said something like: >I lack a correct monitor for the fixed frequency output of the RGB card. >The card is a 98547A which has three BNC connectors; --snip-- >Since the purchase, I've been trying to find a way to view the RGB output >on a typical VGA monitor that would sync to the output. --snip-- Well, I think I just got lucky. I stopped by the local Salvation Army thrift store just to check if any interesting odds 'n' ends showed up. There was something. There stood an NEC 5FGP (model JC1741UMA) 17" monitor. It had five BNC inputs (w/sync on green, it was marked), plus the mini 15 pin VGA connector, plus the standard size D-shell 15 pin connector for MACs. I grabbed it. I think I hit the jackpot. Has every input I might need to check out most vintage hardware except CGA/mono stuff. But there's one problem which explains the $3 price as monitors are usually $5-$15 in that store. The display is very dim. I can see an image okay with the room lights off. After dark. With no full moon (:-\ I found a 5FGP tech manual online in .pdf. I feel I can turn up the red/green/blue gun drives and bring the intensity up to a somewhat useable level. Done it before successfully with several color televisions and an old CGA monitor. Also, the specs indicate it should sync up well to the fixed freq video output from my HP 9000/375. Yippee! All is not lost. After all, this thing won't be used daily, only for testing and messing around with the HP 9000/375. I feel good now. Just gotta find some danged time and table space to play with all the stuff. Which brings me to the next important question . . . maybe Joe R., among a few others, could provide input: Upon initial bootup there may be HP-UX of some version found running on it. It may need a password. How would I get around it, if possible, and set my own? It has that Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, 98286A, which I presume either runs under HP-UX as a task or independently directly under DOS 3.x. That is if indeed the 7958B HDD was not wiped during demil before the military surplused the system. I have no idea what to expect as I'd never booted the thing before. Any HP-UX "features" I should know about before getting too far into running it? I do have a doc set for HP-UX 5.5. Thanks in advance for your help. Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 8 09:08:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:08:25 -0400 Subject: PDP11 H960 rack side panel References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050408085751.0255b108@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <004c01c53c44$6ed93ae0$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > I need a single DEC PDP11 H960 rack side panel to complete my > setup. Would anyone in the NW Indiana area have an extra that > you would be willing to part with? > > I am willing to trade, etc. > > Thanks! > > --tom I have 3 or 4 stacked against the wall in my shop. However, these things don't easily fit in a little box that you can carry down to the local FedEx depot! Too bad I'm not closer to you. - Ashley in the west/middle of South Carolina From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 8 09:12:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:12:25 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> Message-ID: <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > Ed said: > > Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you > need to get the Tektronix 645B. They are widely available 2nd hand, > look at your favourite auction website for one. Proces vary between > $100 and $200. You sure that's a 645B and not a 465B? I see a number of 465B scopes, but no 645B. - Ashley From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 8 09:23:27 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:23:27 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 07 Apr 2005 19:53:20 CDT." <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504081423.j38ENR2T012849@mwave.heeltoe.com> Scott Stevens wrote: > >If what you're wanting is a Unix prompt on, say, a TTY terminal, you can >get any of the very inexpensive 'Lunchbox' Sparc systems (I'd recommend >an IPX or IPC, a Classic if you want to be fancy) for pennies. heh. I've got 2 SS-1's which are free for the taking here in Boston. I think they both work but I'm sure the clock batteries are long gone. They even have some memory last time I checked (but not guarantees). -brad From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Fri Apr 8 09:31:32 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:31:32 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <425695C4.1020307@splab.cas.neu.edu> I was just going to tell you to look for a Tek 465. or A or B, or a 475. Those were what an awful lot of DEC field service guys used. I have two. 100 Mhz, dual channel. I have used Metrictest and Naptech (just a statement, not an endorsement) and don't remember having a bad experience with either. I have also used Holzman Electronics, as he is near me, and has been around for decades. I see him at several of the shows and flea markets. http://stores.ebay.com/Holzman-Electronics Joe Heck Ashley Carder wrote: >>Ed said: >> >>Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you >>need to get the Tektronix 645B. They are widely available 2nd hand, >>look at your favourite auction website for one. Proces vary between >>$100 and $200. >> >> > >You sure that's a 645B and not a 465B? I see a number of 465B >scopes, but no 645B. > >- Ashley > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 8 09:36:35 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:36:35 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> Message-ID: <007d01c53c48$5defddc0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > No idea though where to find a website teaching scope usage, but maybe > Tony Duell know a few???? See: http://www.doctronics.co.uk/scope.htm and http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/mastascu/eLabs/Scope/Scope1.html and the best yet.... a virtual oscilloscope you can use online ... http://www.virtual-oscilloscope.com/simulation.html Regards, Jay West From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 8 09:36:53 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 07:36:53 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: > Wow! Those look DAMNED good to me!! :-) > Congrats on the effort... Thanks! I still want to work a little on the air bubbles, and of course try to get closer to the DEC colors. > Once you get the process down, please document the materials and the > techniques so that it may be replicated easily. Will do, though there is a fair bit of mold tweaking, color mixing, etc. that I'm not sure how to make a recipe for. > Once we get the plastic stuff down, they'll be no reason for any > classiccmp to remain unrestored... I can think of a few more parts made of unobtainium (but I'm working on it) :-). Vince From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Apr 8 09:37:12 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:37:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <19194.192.18.240.12.1112971032.squirrel@192.18.240.12> Ooops, indeed a typo. It is the 465B. Ed >> Ed said: >> >> Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you >> need to get the Tektronix 645B. They are widely available 2nd hand, >> look at your favourite auction website for one. Proces vary between >> $100 and $200. > > You sure that's a 645B and not a 465B? I see a number of 465B > scopes, but no 645B. > > - Ashley > > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 09:46:34 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:46:34 +0800 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 10:36 PM, vrs wrote: > I can think of a few more parts made of unobtainium (but I'm working on it) I know I know. Once you get your own fab up, we can then make those $@%#$^$#^ oh-so-special bus drivers.... :-) /wai-sun From waisun.chia at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 09:49:34 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:49:34 +0800 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <425695C4.1020307@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <425695C4.1020307@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 10:31 PM, joe heck wrote: > I was just going to tell you to look for a Tek 465. or A or B, or a > 475. Those were what an awful lot of DEC field service guys used. I I have a 468 which you may want to consider, as it is a storage scope. It is great for those low frequency readings 1kHz and below and it keeps a non-flickering display. /wai-sun From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Apr 8 10:08:21 2005 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (dvcorbin at optonline.net) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:08:21 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <7eceb2f7ecf3e6.7ecf3e67eceb2f@optonline.net> > Are there any good web sites that > would give some basic info on "scopes for dummies" > or "scopes for beginners"? > 1) Turn on 'scope 2) Dwiddle random knobs till you see squiglly lines 3) Nod knowingly... ...has always worked for me. Seriously, at the low frequencies that the classics use it is ALMOST this simple. When you get above 50MHZ things start to get more interesting. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 8 10:27:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 09:27:04 -0600 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <4256A2C8.4050801@jetnet.ab.ca> vrs wrote: >Will do, though there is a fair bit of mold tweaking, color mixing, etc. >that I'm not sure how to make a recipe for. > > >>Once we get the plastic stuff down, they'll be no reason for any >>classiccmp to remain unrestored... >> >> > >I can think of a few more parts made of unobtainium (but I'm working on it) >:-). > > > Now I suppose you what to be paid in rare coins for the unobtainium parts. You might want to check out *Plastic Injection Molding Machine* at Linsday's books http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/inject/index.html I don't know if that will work for the PDP handles but I suspect you don't have a air bubble problem with it. *Secrets of Building a Plastic Vacuum Forming Machine* may also be a good book for the shelf. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/vacf/index.html > Vince > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 10:49:33 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:49:33 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af05040808494104a4ec@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2005 1:45 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Liam Proven wrote: > > > I don't suppose there's anywhere online with a very simple illustrated > > step-by-step guide on how to do this, is there? My IPX is dead, I can > > just about solder without burning myself - on a good day - and I'd > > love to fix it. > > http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html Wow! Excellent, thankyou. I was going on the info from obsolyte.com before, which says there's no way except to replace the chip. OTOH, the doc to which you refer does say he doesn't think it's worth it, and given the complexity of reprogramming the NVRAM alone, I am inclined to agree. Anyone want a free SPARCstation IPX? I think it's an IPX. Lunchbox type, as they call it. I need its keyboard & mouse but I can provide a 21" mono monitor as well... I also have a bag of 4MB 9-pin parity SIMMs for it, which I've never got round to installing, to take its RAM up to 48MB or so, which I think it the max it will take. Located in London, England. Mitcham, Surrey, to be precise. -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 8 10:51:16 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 08:51:16 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <4256A2C8.4050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: From: "woodelf" > vrs wrote: > >I can think of a few more parts made of unobtainium (but I'm working on it) > >:-). > > > Now I suppose you what to be paid in rare coins for the unobtainium parts. So cynical...I feel that way myself, sometimes. Variant Wisconsin quarters will be fine :-). Rare coins are not needed. Though I'll want to recoup some R&D and materials costs, at least to the extent possible. I've sold the results of a few of projects here, at or near cost. For tax purposes, my favorite thing is to ask cost, but gladly take additional donations to the cause. > You might want to check out *Plastic Injection Molding Machine* at > Linsday's books > http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/inject/index.html > I don't know if that will work for the PDP handles but I suspect you > don't have a > air bubble problem with it. > *Secrets of Building a Plastic Vacuum Forming Machine* may also be a > good book > for the shelf. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/vacf/index.html I'll have a look, thanks! One of my goals is to stick with technology we can (theoretically at least) do at home with a minimal investment. If I spend a ton of time buying or building equipment, I start to feel like I need a business plan :-/. Vince From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 10:54:35 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:54:35 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af05040808494104a4ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <575131af05040808494104a4ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af050408085448324d57@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2005 4:49 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Anyone want a free SPARCstation IPX? I think it's an IPX. Sorry. IPC. I checked. Q.v. http://obsolyte.com/sun_ipc/ (And check out this excellent little site while you're at it...) -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 8 10:56:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 11:56:36 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <0IEM004G7XLCHM91@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Oscilloscope question > The whole thing of O'scopes is manifold. Having a scope adaquate for tha task. Generally an operational Tektronix 465B, 475 or the newer equiventls are an excellent bet. However.. The other is having the right probes, knowing where and how to hook up. With all that accomplished you fire it all up and are faced with a display that doesnt match what you wish(hope) to see. So you twiddle the knobs and its still different. The problem is now interpreting the display and taking the required action IE: adjust scope or adjust equipment at hand or maybe even fix broken equipment. The latter part is far harder as most people have no point of referece to what it all means. That the part of learning to use a O'scope many of the books and site may not even touch. Sometimes if your tweeking a disk the manuals will provide a procedure down to the nth detail and if followed and the drive is otherwise working it's easier. The usual problems is "I made xxx adjustment and I'm to the end and it's still a bit off. What do I do?". There knowledge and experience really helps. If your tweeking a RK05, one suggestion. Find a mentor (EXfield service guy maybe) that has done it before. Even if it's dim memory it maybe very helpful. Allison From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 8 10:55:44 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:55:44 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Are there any good web sites that would give some basic > info on "scopes for dummies" or "scopes for beginners"? Exactly the same situation I'm in and the question needing answering most, Thanks Ashley. Subquestion Number one for me would be the reasoning why those probes are so important. How bad are readings taken with just direct wired connections? Should a scope rating 2X the computer clock speed keep the readings useful? I suspect the approact to an oscilloscope for the typical person on this list wouldn't be the same as for a "rank dummy". > http://www.doctronics.co.uk/scope.htm Very useful. Thanks, Jay John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 8 11:37:48 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:37:48 -0500 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <4256A2C8.4050801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <003801c53c59$4cffde00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >> *Secrets of Building a Plastic Vacuum Forming Machine* may also be a >> good book >> for the shelf. http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/djgbk/vacf/index.html > > I'll have a look, thanks! One of my goals is to stick with technology we > can (theoretically at least) do at home with a minimal investment. If I > spend a ton of time buying or building equipment, I start to feel like I > need a business plan :-/. Ok, total neophyte input here on my part. But most of the techniques I've seen involve doing the casting inside a small dixie cup. If the problem is air bubbles, what about using a common (at least back in the 70's) device that many people still have in their kitchens... a "seal-a-meal". Mine has a vacuum attachment, to suck the air out of the container. So what about putting the cast inside a mason jar, to which you've hooked up the seal-a-meal (or maybe the backend of an aquarium pump) to suck out all the air and let the cast set in a vacuum? Maybe a nutball idea, as I haven't a clue about this stuff. Just a thought. Jay From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Fri Apr 8 11:48:18 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:48:18 -0400 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> <4256A2C8.4050801@jetnet.ab.ca> <003801c53c59$4cffde00$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <037401c53c5a$c52cadd0$3a92a8c0@maggie> not at all! I used to do this when potting military aircraft power supplies... we used a two part resin, and a bell jar/pump to cycle vacuum half a dozen times - to get the bubble out from the aggressive mixing. not sure how much suck you'll get out of 'seal a meal' though. it would be more convenient to do at least a dozen or so at a time, before it became too time/labour intensive. I recall we had to be very careful on how fast to pump down.. otherwise the casting resin would fizz up like a shaken pop bottle. Not sure how the soft flexible moulds would handle the vacuum either - if they had bubbles... the best way to go would be to machine up a steel die, but that costs real $$ h Jay West wrote: > Ok, total neophyte input here on my part. But most of the techniques I've > seen involve doing the casting inside a small dixie cup. If the problem is > air bubbles, what about using a common (at least back in the 70's) device > that many people still have in their kitchens... a "seal-a-meal". Mine has a > vacuum attachment, to suck the air out of the container. So what about > putting the cast inside a mason jar, to which you've hooked up the > seal-a-meal (or maybe the backend of an aquarium pump) to suck out all the > air and let the cast set in a vacuum? > > Maybe a nutball idea, as I haven't a clue about this stuff. Just a thought. > > Jay > From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Apr 8 11:52:56 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:52:56 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <1112979176.8697.9.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 11:55 -0400, John Allain wrote: I don't claim to be a EE, but FWIW... (I'm sure someone will put me in my place if I say anything out of line. :-) ) > Subquestion Number one for me would be the reasoning why > those probes are so important. How bad are readings taken > with just direct wired connections? Impedance. What effect does the "load" of the scope have on the circuit being tested? The "load" of the scope is (probably) significantly more w/ out the probes. > > Should a scope rating 2X the computer clock speed keep the > readings useful? I believe that's correct. My (old) B&K was targeted for TV repairmain, so its rating is a mere 10Mhz. (Analog TV is spec'd at a 4Mhz bandwidth) David From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 8 11:56:13 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:56:13 -0400 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458A1@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Ok, total neophyte input here on my part. But most of the > techniques I've seen involve doing the casting inside a small > dixie cup. If the problem is air bubbles, what about using a > common (at least back in the 70's) device that many people > still have in their kitchens... a "seal-a-meal". Mine has a I think the usual approach is a vibrating table shake the bubbles to the surface. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 8 12:05:43 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:05:43 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <16982.47591.216000.141694@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: Ashley> I'm rapidly approaching the point where I will need to learn Ashley> how to use an oscilloscope as part of my quest to learn more Ashley> about debugging the old DEC hardware. What kind of advice Ashley> can folks offer to me about a decent scope and some info on Ashley> how to use one? I think I used one 30 years ago in school, Ashley> but it's been so long that I remember little-to-nothing about Ashley> it. Ashley> One of my first exercises might be to attempt a head Ashley> alignment on an RK05 drive using an alignment pack. I have Ashley> all the documentation for the drive maintenance, etc. Ashley> What kind of scope would I need and how much does one cost? Ashley> Are there any good web sites that would give some basic info Ashley> on "scopes for dummies" or "scopes for beginners"? In the PDP11 era, DEC FS people used to carry around Tektronix scopes of about 100 MHz bandwidth, perhaps a bit less. 465 is a model number that comes to mind, but I may be off a bit. I bought a 100 MHz scope surplus about 8-10 years ago for $500. That was a bench model (Tek 7603 -- very nice machine). 465s were available for about the same price at that time as well. I got the 7603 because it takes plugins, though I don't have any add-on plugins just yet. I would assume that comparable units are significantly less expensive now. (Mine came from Fair Radio, Lima OH. Their pricing is somewhat odd at times but I think this was a good deal. And besides, their warrantee is as good as they claim -- I had the first one go dead on me after a week and they replaced it, no fuss, in a matter of days.) I also got the manual for it. It describes how to use the device quite clearly, and also has a detailed maintenance section and full schematics with description. That apparently stopped being true more recently, but for 1970ish units the manuals should still be good. The big manufacturers should have tutorials of various kinds on their websites. I recently downloaded some from both Agilent and Tektronix (open access, no charge). Haven't read them yet, though, so I can't tell you how good they are. Do some looking, you may find that there is educational material out there that still makes perfect sense even when you're using a 25 year old scope. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 8 12:13:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:13:41 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <0IEN00KMZ15SB1BC@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Oscilloscope question > From: "John Allain" >Subquestion Number one for me would be the reasoning why >those probes are so important. How bad are readings taken >with just direct wired connections? The probe is the "interface" between teh scope and the circuit. The wrong type of connection will either pick up undesired signals, load the signal resistively or capacitively. The latter is signigicant as digital signals are time based and the capacitive load of raw coax cable and alter that timing or worse introduce ringing into the circuit. >Should a scope rating 2X the computer clock speed keep the >readings useful? Scopes are like telescopes, even the cheapest can see Mars, slightly better can see the bands on Mars. Relating the bandwidth to CPU clock is mostly meaningless. The parameters your are mesuring is timing of the waveform and possibly the waveshape. If the bandwidth (and corosponding rise time of the scope amplifiers) is not adaquate you will distort the waveshape and if the timebase(X or horizontal scan time) is either porrly calibrates or cannout go fast enough it may be impossible to determine if a event occurs 450nanoseconds (10^-9) later. Risetime is a measure of how fast the amplifer in a scope can go from 10% to 90%. Usually you want that to be faster than the waveshape you wish to view by more an two and as much as 10 times. Note most TTL have rise times well under 20ns and even some of the older logic families can be very fast rise and fall times. So this is why a 50mhz (465b) scope of better is used. The key here is risetime is the measure used to understand the faithfulness of the reproduction for a given wave shape. An example may be a very fast rise time square wave can end up looking more like a saws teeth when reproduced using a scope with inadaquate risetime in the most extreme case. For the math types 1/risetime+falltime give an approximate repetition rate or frequency 1/40ns=25,000,000 Reptitions/Second. So 2x that is only 50mhz! Also bandwidth and rise time are only related as a scope can have good rise time but limited bandwidth or the reverse. >I suspect the approact to an oscilloscope for the typical person >on this list wouldn't be the same as for a "rank dummy". Yes. In both cases there is a requirement to understand electronic basics and what waveforms result from basic circuits. Complex circuits are just many simple ones combined in many ways. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 8 12:20:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:20:38 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <0IEN007BS1HD8V9D@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Oscilloscope question > From: David Holland >I don't claim to be a EE, but FWIW... I am but, that means little. I actually troubleshoot stuff, in the practical world doing is the important part. Experience doing is extremely useful. >I believe that's correct. My (old) B&K was targeted for TV repairmain, >so its rating is a mere 10Mhz. (Analog TV is spec'd at a 4Mhz >bandwidth) My everyday bench scope is a B&K 20mhz dual trace as it's fairly small and warms up fast. I have no hesitation to use it for logic in the 20+ mhz range, however I understand how it behaves and what I'm seeing as a result. If I realy need to see more I have "big guns" for for the task but rarely use them. I do more with a VOM and cheap logic probe before I resort to scopes and logic analysers. Allison From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 8 12:20:25 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:20:25 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4256BD59.5030104@internet1.net> Ethan, Good idea! I wanted to do something like that, but I was thinking of a small plug. I didn't see any small plugs at Radio Shack, though. What I did do was use some of the wires that I taken from PC's.... wire that may have an LED at the end, or a reset switch. I cut it long enough so I could run the wire under the nvram and still have a length of wire left over. I soldered the battery to the wire, put a dab of dielectric grease on the battery and covered it with heat shrink tubing. The exposed wire was also covered in heat shrink tubing. The battery and wire is laid between the case and a plug on the motherboard. It looks pretty good, won't short anything, and since the wire runs under the nvram the wires shouldn't break off the the chip. I think I super glued the wires to the bottom of the nvram, too. I was going to anchor the battery to the side of the case, but found it wasn't necessary on the IPX. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Ethan Dicks wrote: > I gave my battery replacement a little twist... when I broke the > connections between the battery and the underlying chip, I attached a > 9V battery lead to the chip in place of the factory battery. I then > soldered on a PC-mount 3V Li cell (3032?) onto a former 9V battery > top. I did it that way so I could replace the battery again later > without having to solder at the chip a second time. > > I did a similar trick when I was faced with a dead Dallas DS1287 > clock/SRAM. Used the same Li cell, too, for the test. > > -ethan > > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 8 12:25:47 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:25:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458A1@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458A1@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, James Fogg wrote: >> dixie cup. If the problem is air bubbles, what about using a >> common (at least back in the 70's) device that many people >> still have in their kitchens... a "seal-a-meal". Mine has a > > I think the usual approach is a vibrating table shake the bubbles to the > surface. A suggestion from online users is to remove the blade from your scroll saw (if you have one), place the mold on the scroll saw table and turn it on. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 8 12:24:28 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:24:28 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4256BE4C.7040609@internet1.net> Here's another one: http://www.bhargavaz.net/nvram/nvram.html I think this guy calls the contacts on the nvram wire..... they aren't really wires. They're triangular looking flat ... contacts. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Mike Loewen wrote: > On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I don't suppose there's anywhere online with a very simple illustrated >> step-by-step guide on how to do this, is there? My IPX is dead, I can >> just about solder without burning myself - on a good day - and I'd >> love to fix it. > > > http://www.squirrel.com/squirrel/sun-nvram-hostid.faq.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 8 12:29:45 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:29:45 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <16982.49033.696000.628476@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Allain writes: >> Are there any good web sites that would give some basic info on >> "scopes for dummies" or "scopes for beginners"? John> Exactly the same situation I'm in and the question needing John> answering most, Thanks Ashley. John> Subquestion Number one for me would be the reasoning why those John> probes are so important. How bad are readings taken with just John> direct wired connections? Very Very Very bad. There are several reasons for this. Oscilloscopes have high input impedance, in order not to put a significant load on the circuit. But coax cable is 50 or 75 ohms. So you get reflections -- which you will see on the screen. "Is that glitch really there or is it a test system artifact???" Second, coax cable has significant capacitance, and a capacitive load will mess up the waveforms you're looking at. The job of a probe is to connect to your signal source while minimizing the additional load, i.e., minime the disturbing effect. Except for real antiques, passive scope probes are normally 10x probes, in other words the scope sees 1/10th of the actual signal. You just mentally adjust the readings on the screen for this. (Newer scopes that display text on the screen will often do that for you.) The problem will be rated with a max frequency rating, and an impedance expressed in ohms (resistive) and picofarads (reactive). You want high resistance and low capacitance. Probes also usually have an trim point on them. This tweaks some internal components. You set this by connceting the probe to the "calibrator" output of the scope, if it has one, or a fast rise time squarewave oscillator if not. You tweak the "compensation" adjustment for maximal squareness, no overshoot, no sloping sides. Probes from the manufacturer are good to have. There are also aftermarket probe makers that are decent and somewhat less expensive; TPI (Test Probes Inc) is a name that comes to mind. John> Should a scope rating 2X the computer clock speed keep the John> readings useful? Perhaps a bit more. A better way to judge this is to look at the fastest risetimes you want to be able to see accurately. A sine wave has a rise and a fall, so if you have a 5 ns risetime, a 100 MHz oscilloscope will round that off to something similar to a sinewave shape. If I were dealing with 5 ns rise times I would have 100 MHz bandwidth as the lower limit, and would probably prefer to go a bit higher. Another way to look at it is: for your logic circuits, what are the smallest glitches that they care about? As a guess, classic 74xx logic probably doesn't care much about glitches smaller than 5 or so ns, which is why 100 MHz scopes are fine for that vintage of circuitry. By the way, if you want to see sinewaves and accurate voltage levels aren't a major concern, the requirements are less strict. My scope is probably closer to 75 MHz official bandwidth, but I can use it just fine for debugging 144 MHz ham radio circuitry. But those are sine waves, and I'm not looking for distortion, nor for accurate levels. "Peaking" a filter works well even if the absolute amplitude I see is off by 5 dB. paul paul From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 8 12:32:24 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:32:24 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af05040808494104a4ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <575131af05040808494104a4ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4256C028.6010901@internet1.net> Liam Proven wrote: > OTOH, the doc to which you refer does say he doesn't think it's worth > it, and given the complexity of reprogramming the NVRAM alone, I am > inclined to agree. That's what I was talking about before. The nvram faq pretty much discourages against replacing the battery. I think it's the best route to go. Reprogramming the nvram did take a little time, but I figured that I was better off having done it, than not. Besides even if you bought a new chip, you'd still have to program that chip. But from what I've read, and the faq even mentions I think, the newer nvrams don't work right for a lot of people in IPX's. The currently produced nvrams are a bit different..... faster for one. Read this page too. It's the one I read while replacing my battery. http://www.bhargavaz.net/nvram/nvram.html Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 12:39:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <200504081739.KAA02886@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vince Slyngstad" > >I put up some pictures of the switch handles I have cast so far. (It will >be clear why I think they're not ready for prime time.) > >http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/sw-handles.html > > Vince > > Hi This is great. What are you using to make the molds? Dwight From lproven at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 12:47:06 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:47:06 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <4256BE4C.7040609@internet1.net> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <4256BE4C.7040609@internet1.net> Message-ID: <575131af050408104748b600c@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2005 6:24 PM, C Fernandez wrote: > Here's another one: > > http://www.bhargavaz.net/nvram/nvram.html > > I think this guy calls the contacts on the nvram wire..... they aren't > really wires. They're triangular looking flat ... contacts. Thanks for the additional information. It still looks a little hairy to me - I have next to no experience with component-level microelectronics. Board swaps are more my level. Also, I have a somewhat newer Nextra Ultra machine now, and the objective was for me to learn a little about Solaris, preferably on its native SPARC platform... -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 8 12:49:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 17:49:27 +0000 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-04 at 19:42 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > > Possible I could take the 3/60 and 3/140 for the museum if nobody else > > wants (will email the person and let them know this). > > > As I'm coming up there with a van I could pick them up for you, but > I'm not coming up until the 24th. Now in the back of my car :) Had to go to Fulham to help pick up a Pr1me 750 mini earlier and these machines were only just down the road, so I grabbed them at the same time. There was no sign of the 3/50 but we've already got one of those and they're pretty dull hardware-wise anyway - no great loss! Won't get a chance to look the Sun stuff over until tomorrow though... cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 13:01:58 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:01:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <200504081801.LAA02965@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "vrs" > >> Wow! Those look DAMNED good to me!! :-) >> Congrats on the effort... > >Thanks! I still want to work a little on the air bubbles, and of course try >to get closer to the DEC colors. > >> Once you get the process down, please document the materials and the >> techniques so that it may be replicated easily. > >Will do, though there is a fair bit of mold tweaking, color mixing, etc. >that I'm not sure how to make a recipe for. > >> Once we get the plastic stuff down, they'll be no reason for any >> classiccmp to remain unrestored... > >I can think of a few more parts made of unobtainium (but I'm working on it) >:-). > > Vince > > Hi Vince Can you get your hands on a vacuum pump. If you pour the stuff in a vacuum and then release it to air, you shouldn't have any bubbles. What material are you using for the plastic. Some of these things can handle a vacuum while others can't. Even using a hand pump made from a bicycle pump can do wonders at removing bubbles. How about a list of the materials you use for molds, colors and plastic? Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 13:07:17 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <200504081807.LAA02969@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "vrs" ---snip--- > >I'll have a look, thanks! One of my goals is to stick with technology we >can (theoretically at least) do at home with a minimal investment. If I >spend a ton of time buying or building equipment, I start to feel like I >need a business plan :-/. > > Vince > > Hi Vince Like I said, the pump can be made from an old bicycle hand pump. If you need a chamber, watch garage sales for an old preasure cooker. Most of these are strong enough to hold a vacuum. They should be big enough to hold a small mold. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 8 13:05:24 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:05:24 -0600 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: <200504081801.LAA02965@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504081801.LAA02965@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4256C7E4.2030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >> >> > >Hi Vince > Can you get your hands on a vacuum pump. If you pour the >stuff in a vacuum and then release it to air, you shouldn't >have any bubbles. What material are you using for the >plastic. Some of these things can handle a vacuum while >others can't. Even using a hand pump made from a bicycle >pump can do wonders at removing bubbles. > How about a list of the materials you use for molds, >colors and plastic? >Dwight > > I guess you have two kinds of bubbles 1) Trapped air 2) Voids in the filling. I vacumm pump may be $$, but a reversed air compressior pump or other hacked pump may work since I don't think you need a strong vacumm. Ben alias woodelf From fernande at internet1.net Fri Apr 8 13:11:40 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:11:40 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af050408104748b600c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <4256BE4C.7040609@internet1.net> <575131af050408104748b600c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4256C95C.1010202@internet1.net> Liam Proven wrote: > Thanks for the additional information. It still looks a little hairy > to me - I have next to no experience with component-level > microelectronics. I guess, I should have mentioned that..... me too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri Apr 8 13:14:16 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 14:14:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Funny ebay auction In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050405160856b67527@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05-Apr-2005 Dan Williams wrote: > It made me laugh and it's on topic. > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=51810 > 57334 One UKP for an 8in disk! I'LL BE RICH! -Philip From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 8 13:20:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:20:32 -0400 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <200504081801.LAA02965@clulw009.amd.com> <4256C7E4.2030009@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16982.52080.144000.618301@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> I guess you have two kinds of bubbles 1) Trapped air 2) woodelf> Voids in the filling. If you do the pouring in vacuum, and the viscosity is not excessive, you shouldn't have voids -- because those tend to come from trapped air and you get that in vacuum... (That assumes you got the bubbles out of the resin, of course. Same comment there: mix in vacuum? Then all you have left is reaction gases, which resins meant for casting shouldn't produce.) woodelf> I vacumm pump may be $$, but a woodelf> reversed air compressior pump or other hacked pump may work woodelf> since I don't think you need a strong vacumm. A water jet pump -- as found in old style chemistry labs -- produces a surprisingly good vacuum. It's very simple, no moving parts. You can find them in waterbed supply stores -- the widget used to empty waterbeds is one of these things. Rule of thumb for jet pumps: the minimum pressure achievable equals, roughly, the vapor pressure of the working fluid. paul From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 13:21:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <200504081821.LAA02974@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" ---snip--- > >Ok, total neophyte input here on my part. But most of the techniques I've >seen involve doing the casting inside a small dixie cup. If the problem is >air bubbles, what about using a common (at least back in the 70's) device >that many people still have in their kitchens... a "seal-a-meal". Mine has a >vacuum attachment, to suck the air out of the container. So what about >putting the cast inside a mason jar, to which you've hooked up the Hi Just be careful using glass containers with a vacuum. Usually these jars have some nice gooey stuff inside them when they fail from a vacuum. Without that stuff inside, the glass can go flying everywhere. Use safety glasses. Even metal containers can be dangerous when they collapse. Still, glass works well because you can watch for the stuff outgassing and making too much foam. It is much easier to regulate how fast the vacuum it done. Dwight >seal-a-meal (or maybe the backend of an aquarium pump) to suck out all the >air and let the cast set in a vacuum? > >Maybe a nutball idea, as I haven't a clue about this stuff. Just a thought. > >Jay > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 8 13:29:45 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:29:45 -0500 Subject: battery desoldering advice Message-ID: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the quartersized/style one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a clip arrangement that you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, it is in fact soldered or spot welded into the clip somehow. As a result, I'd rather not just cut the clip arms to replace the battery as I'd have trouble getting the new one in. The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. Suggestions? Jay West From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Apr 8 13:47:34 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:47:34 +0200 Subject: battery desoldering advice In-Reply-To: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050408184734.GY6447@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2005-04-08 13:29:45 -0500, Jay West wrote in message <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0 at HPLAPTOP>: > The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it > strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. > Suggestions? It got there that way, so it goes away this way... MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 13:50:20 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 11:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: battery desoldering advice Message-ID: <200504081850.LAA02982@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the quartersized/style >one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a clip arrangement that >you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, it is in fact soldered or >spot welded into the clip somehow. As a result, I'd rather not just cut the >clip arms to replace the battery as I'd have trouble getting the new one in. > >The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it >strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. >Suggestions? > >Jay West Hi Jay If the clip is attached to the cell, it is most likely spot welded. It is difficult to actually solder directly to a cell without damaging the seal on the cell. I usually causes excess pressure in the cell bursting the seal. If you can't find a cell with solder tabs, take it to one of those battery stores that are around. We have a chain out here called Batteries Plus. You may have to talk nice to the fellow their to get them to do the job for you but they have the spot welder to do the job. Dwight From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 8 14:00:10 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:00:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: battery desoldering advice In-Reply-To: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it > strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. > Suggestions? I had a synthesizer with a battery like that. I desoldered the battery clip itself from the board, and replaced it with a plastic battery holder that was designed for replaceable batteries. Should be dirt chip at any electronic parts shop. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 8 14:08:00 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:08:00 +0100 Subject: battery desoldering advice References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <02ba01c53c6e$499fb680$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Jay, these things are usually spot welded :( However, if you take the whole assembly out, you can usually prize the clip of the battery without damaging either (you could use a burr in one of those Dremel type tools and grind the welds out. As for replacing, you can solder them on, but it is difficult due to the plating on the clip and the battery, a good flux is required, and often, you need to remove the plating with emery paper before you can solder to the parts. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 08, 2005 7:29 PM Subject: battery desoldering advice > I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the quartersized/style > one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a clip arrangement that > you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, it is in fact soldered or > spot welded into the clip somehow. As a result, I'd rather not just cut the > clip arms to replace the battery as I'd have trouble getting the new one in. > > The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it > strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. > Suggestions? > > Jay West > > > From ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se Fri Apr 8 14:06:38 2005 From: ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se (Ulf Andersson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:06:38 +0200 Subject: WD1935-PL In-Reply-To: <49219.207.145.53.202.1112898701.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: According to my 1984 Data Communications Products Handbook it is a Synchronous Data Link Controller. /Ulf Andersson > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 07 April, 2005 20:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: WD1935-PL > > > Marvin wrote: > > Anyone know what the Western Digital WD1935-PL is? I couldn't find a > > description with Google nor does it show up in my June 1984 WD Storage > > Management Products Handbook. > > That's because it's not a storage management product. > > > It is in an unknown piece of gear that > > could be an older ham radio TNC made by Applied Ditital Technology. > > It's probably a serial chip of some sort, possibly synchronous. WD > made a bazillion different serial chips. > > Eric > > From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 8 11:03:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 09:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> You can also do postscript on cheap HP inkjets using hpijs (PS --> HP) and nenscript (ascii --> PS). Unix/linux, not sure if there's "DOS" versions. Totally transparent; printcap and a userland filter. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 8 14:06:10 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:06:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <42575.207.145.53.202.1112987170.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Ashley wrote: > What kind of scope would I need and how much does one cost? Assuming that you want something good but cheap, your best bet is probably to try to find an old Tek 465. It's a good, solid two-channel 100 MHz scope. ISTR that they show up on eBay frequently, but as with anything on eBay, there's no telling what condition it would really be in. Ideally you'd get one with probes, as new scope probes are somewhat pricey. Note that you need a scope that has a rated bandwidth substantially faster than fastest digital signals you expect to probe. For instance, with a 100 MHz scope you're not actually going to get very good results probing a 50 MHz square wave. But 100 MHz bandwidth should be sufficient for anything you'll find it most PDP-11 CPUs. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 8 14:11:59 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <42863.207.145.53.202.1112987519.squirrel@207.145.53.202> John wrote: > Should a scope rating 2X the computer clock speed keep the > readings useful? Marginal. Square waves consist of odd harmonics. A 100 MHz scope is going to have a *lot* of attenuation at 150 MHz, so a 50 MHz square wave that in reality has fast edges will look like a sine wave on the scope. Fast edges in general have very high frequency components, so a scope is going to round them at least somewhat no matter what you do. But I'd recommend at least 4x more bandwidth than the highest frequency digital signal you want to examine. Eric From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 8 14:17:20 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:17:20 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <200504081739.KAA02886@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > This is great. What are you using to make the molds? Well, I went into the local TAP Plastics, described what I wanted to do to the nice saleslady, and ended up with these products: **Mold Making** TAP Silicone RTV System, Side A and Side B. Side B comes in a couple of color coded versions. I chose "TAP Silicone RTV Catalyst GREEN", which has a 1 hour working time, and a 24 hour cure. This stuff is easy to work with, and hardens to a rubbery consistency, very much what you want for mold-making. It is white until you mix in the catalyst, which dyes it green. **Casting** Quick Cast TAP Casting Resin, Side A and Side B. This stuff hardens into a stiff plastic, perfect for switch handles :-). Side A and Side B are clear, but the result will be white after it cures. This color change makes it more difficult to predict the effect of the colorants. This stuff has a very short working time -- a few minutes. It is recommended to remove the parts from the mold in an hour (don't know why; some kind of chemical reaction with the mold is predicted, but I've never seen it). **Colorant** TAP Premium Pigment, in yellow, brown, red, and blue. These are added in small quantities to Side B of the resin, before side A is added. Only a very small amount of the pigment will actually stir into side B (most of the pigment just lays there, no matter how much you stir.) Hope that helps :-). More later... Vince From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Apr 8 14:24:49 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 12:24:49 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <42575.207.145.53.202.1112987170.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <42575.207.145.53.202.1112987170.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <1112988289.8579.15.camel@linux.site> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 12:06 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Ashley wrote: > > What kind of scope would I need and how much does one cost? > > Assuming that you want something good but cheap, your best bet is > probably to try to find an old Tek 465. It's a good, solid two-channel > 100 MHz scope. ISTR that they show up on eBay frequently, but as > with anything on eBay, there's no telling what condition it would > really be in. I agree. I got a Tek 465 on e-bay a couple of years ago for ~200 or so. They show up with some regularity and at the time I got mine there were several up at once. I chose one that was a bit more expensive because the seller indicated that it was working and had been recently calibrated. Some of the cheaper ones were "as-is". But YMMV. It's also a nice scope because it's dual trace (which many things you'll need to use it for will be easer with dual trace). It's reasonably portable and has a pouch on top for holding the various bits (like scope probes). > > Ideally you'd get one with probes, as new scope probes are somewhat > pricey. > > Note that you need a scope that has a rated bandwidth substantially > faster than fastest digital signals you expect to probe. For instance, > with a 100 MHz scope you're not actually going to get very good results > probing a 50 MHz square wave. But 100 MHz bandwidth should be sufficient > for anything you'll find it most PDP-11 CPUs. > > Eric > > -- TTFN - Guy From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri Apr 8 14:31:54 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> Message-ID: On 08-Apr-2005 Tom Jennings wrote: > You can also do postscript on cheap HP inkjets using hpijs (PS --> > HP) and nenscript (ascii --> PS). Unix/linux, not sure if there's > "DOS" versions. Totally transparent; printcap and a userland > filter. Doing PS rendering on the computer is not the same as having a PS printer. I program computers for a living. I've never programmed a printer. -Philip From liste at artware.qc.ca Fri Apr 8 14:31:54 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:31:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> Message-ID: On 08-Apr-2005 Tom Jennings wrote: > You can also do postscript on cheap HP inkjets using hpijs (PS --> > HP) and nenscript (ascii --> PS). Unix/linux, not sure if there's > "DOS" versions. Totally transparent; printcap and a userland > filter. Doing PS rendering on the computer is not the same as having a PS printer. I program computers for a living. I've never programmed a printer. -Philip From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 14:46:38 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:46:38 -0500 Subject: 3B Journal Message-ID: Hey list, I've recently obtained some AT&T 3B2's, and am diving right in. They supposedly have been recently working, so I thought it would be an interesting foray into getting them setup, running, learning about old UNIX, etc. Anyhoo, to my dismay most of the ftp sites that had working 3B2 programs are down, moved, or otherwise gone. One of these was a repository of Owens-Laing publications' "3b Journal" having to do with 3B1's and 2's. Does anyone have (a) copy(ies) of this or any similar material? Thanks, -dhbarr. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 8 12:45:33 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 18:45:33 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:56:42 +0200." <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> Message-ID: <200504081745.SAA10684@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ed said: > > Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you > need to get the Tektronix 645B. How does that relate, if at all, to the 465B - I've located a rack-mount version I was thinking of buying. (Not really computer related, it's to go in the rack with the radio gear for looking at digital transmissions...) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 8 15:13:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:13:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> Message-ID: <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Philip wrote: > Doing PS rendering on the computer is not the same as having a PS printer. True, there is a functional differences. In my case, I've got a PCL-only printer on one parallel port on a computer running Linux, and a Postcript printer on another. The print spooling system will automatically render Postscript files into PCL as needed if I print them to the PCL-only printer. The functional difference is that when I print complex Postscript documents to the PCL-only printer, it is much *FASTER*. The computer has a lot more computons available for rendering than the Postscript printer does. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 8 15:20:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Apple World by Paul Lutus ($$$) Message-ID: I'm looking for a program for a client that I thought I had but after looking I'm now not so sure. It's called Apple World by Paul Lutus circa 1980. It was a CAD-type program that had 3D line drawing. Does anyone have it? An original would be preferable, but even a copy at this point would be useful. This is a bounty so it's worth some bucks. Please contact me off-line. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 8 15:27:20 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:27:20 -0500 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > The functional difference is that when I print complex Postscript documents > to the PCL-only printer, it is much *FASTER*. The computer has a lot more > computons available for rendering than the Postscript printer does. I have a similar setup at home, but I still send PS to my 4ML because, in side-by-side comparisons, the computer-rendered output is slightly worse than the 4ML's output. The 4ML's curved lines seem anti-aliased or something; they're smoother. Halftoning looks a bit better too. But that's just my opinion. Both printers are 300 DPI (the 4ML has "resolution-enhancing technology", not sure if that is marketing-speak or actual features though; the PCL printer does not). Back in 1988, when sending a semi-complex page took tens of minutes to spool, PS was magic for me -- computer control was returned in less than half a minute and I could keep working while this complex page was formed on the printer. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 8 15:35:34 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:35:34 -0500 Subject: 3B Journal References: Message-ID: <011b01c53c7a$84182a20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> David wrote... > Anyhoo, to my dismay most of the ftp sites that had working 3B2 > programs are down, moved, or otherwise gone. One of these was a > repository of Owens-Laing publications' "3b Journal" having to do with > 3B1's and 2's. > > Does anyone have (a) copy(ies) of this or any similar material? If anyone does locate these files, I would be happy to host them gratis on classiccmp.org. As always free bandwidth, free disk space, both unlimited. If the recent TRS-80 docs now hosted there didn't kill me, nothing will :) Jay West From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Apr 8 15:37:03 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno1983) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:37:03 +0200 Subject: NVRAM contents, Save some Suns, and a question Message-ID: Ethan Dicks ethan.dicks at gmail.com wrote: > IPXs, IPCs, SPARC1s, etc., all suffer from one weakness... dead or > dying NVRAM batteries. There are answers in the Sun NVRAM FAQ, but > one does have to be aware of the issue before the machine comes up > inert (FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF MAC address) one day. Not quite. In some guide, I remember there was a "quick-and-dirty" way of assembling some bogus NVRAM info for Suns. Basically you only have to get the machine class designation right (there is a table for this) and you must set the manufacturer part of the MAC ID to 8:0:20, or you'll get complaints about a broken main board. The rest is totally free, so one usually winds up with host parts and serial no.s that read de:ad or c0:ff:ee or anything like that... On the other hand, Sun still maintains a complete database of the NVRAM infos programmed into any machine that was delivered. If you want to get it historically correct, you want to put those values back; in order to get them, you have to read the four (later: six) character NVRAM ID off the white or yellow bar-code sticker on the NVRAM. Then, the guys at sunopsis (The Sun Museum) can help you. My contact person there is ruediger (dot) frenk (at) sun (dot) com, he'll sure help you too. That is, if you don't flood him all at once now. While we're at it: Erlangen University in southern Germany is about to scrap part of its SUN inventory. There are (several of most types): SPARCstation 1, 1+, 2, 5, 10, 20, SPARCclassic, Ultra 1. The SPARCstation 1 come with mgone monochrome ECL frame buffers, matching monitors are available. 10's and 20's have varying processors. RAM, hard disks and drive sleds may be missing. Keyboards, Monitors, Mice are there, also additional RAM (mostly smaller modules than those currently installed, and a bunch of older Sbus framebuffers. Heck, even some FDDI Boards! I'd like to see as much as possible saved; they're free for the taking, but I'd rather not have to deal with shipping the stuff. Smaller items perhaps, but not whole machines or monitors. Counter-donations accepted - anybody have a SPARCstation 5/10/20 parallel port adapter spare? And a question to the gurus around: When going over the SPARCclassic systems, I noticed there are obviously two variants. It's the pictograms on the back side of the housing, next to the 26-pin Micro-D connector - one kind only has the networking symbol < . . . > there, the other has that *and* a speaker symbol (as on the SPARCstation 10, where you need the splitter cable and the audio box to bring out the signals). Both kinds have Line In and Out as two jack sockets, and the Sun documentation says that only the AUI part of the connector is used in the SPARCclassic: http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Systems/SUNERGY/TrCOMM_SS_LX_10_AUI_Aud io_Port.html Anybody know if the Audio symbol was only put there erroneously, or can you really connect and use a audio box on these systems? Thanks in advance: Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen --- www.iser.uni-erlangen.de From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Fri Apr 8 14:09:04 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:09:04 -0400 Subject: New find & HP-UX p/w? was: Re: RGB-to-VGA adapter References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> "Christian R. Fandt" wrote: > Upon initial bootup there may be HP-UX of some version found running on it. > It may need a password. How would I get around it, if possible, and set my > own? > > It has that Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, 98286A, which I presume either runs > under HP-UX as a task or independently directly under DOS 3.x. That is if > indeed the 7958B HDD was not wiped during demil before the military > surplused the system. I have no idea what to expect as I'd never booted the > thing before. Any HP-UX "features" I should know about before getting too > far into running it? I do have a doc set for HP-UX 5.5. Unfortunately, the series 300/400 PROMS did not allow much interaction with the boot process; in particular, they did not allow loading the seconday boot loader in a boot-management mode like the series 700 did (which allowed you to pass parameters to the kernel so that it boots in single user mode). Once you choose the drive that you want it to boot from, it will just go through the complete OS startup process. One method that has been reported to work once out of five times or so is to let hpux boot all the way to the login prompt, power-cycle the computer and drives, and when it reboots and starts fsck-ing the disks (there should be a /etc/bcheckrc: " message on the console) repeatedly type ctrl-C, ctrl-\ or shift-(DEL/ESC) (DEL/ESC is a key on the left side of HP-HIL keyboards). I don't remember the exact key combination that was used, but it did work once for me about ten years ago with hpux 9.0 and a model 380; it interrupts and gives you a single user prompt. Just finish fsck-ing stuff, mount -a and edit the /etc/passwd file. Not for the faint of heart, I know. Now, the 375 has built-in scsi if I remember correctly... that was the difference wrt the 370 I think. If you need to install hpux 9.x contact me off list. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at cuthispambait.ieee.org Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 8 15:45:44 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:45:44 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1><0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <16982.49033.696000.628476@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> For what it's worth... As Allison has said, with digital circuitry, rise time is a better way to look at 'scope performance than bandwidth, though, as was pointed out, the two are related. >From my recent experiences with the 11/45, you will probably need a 'scope with a minimum of 100MHz bandwidth - DEC specified the 453, which is a 50MHz unit, but you would have difficulty seeing the sharp "spikes" of noise on the power rails with that, I could only just see them on the 100MHz Philips scope I was using. Probes are very important, and need to be matched both to the circuit under test, and to the scope input. The scope input bit is easy, it will say something like "1M in paralell with 10pF", which gives the resistance and reactance combination (ie, the IMPEDANCE) at the scopes input terminal. Matching to the circuit under test is more a matter of experience, but generally, the impedance of the probe should be MUCH greater than the impedance of the circuit under test, for example, measuring across a load of 1M with a 1M probe will result in a 50% error on the measured voltage. For this reason, probes are supplied with various muliplication factors, for example, x1 and x10, these multiply the input impedance of the scope by the stated amount, but also mean that you have to multiply the reading on the scope by the same factor to get the correct voltage (some modern scopes byt the likes of Philips and Tektronix automatically sense when a x10 probe is connected and alter the Volts/cm display accordingly). Tektronix (Tek), and some other firms have probes with x1, x10, and x100 factors at small signal levels, and even x1000 for high voltage work. Tek scopes are excellent, and the older ones (upto about the 454), are fairly easy to repair, however, they tend to command higher than average prices for the spec. You may also want to look at HP, Philips (some of there newer scopes are reasonably cheap secondhand, and excellent for computer work - not so good in strong RF environments though), B&K, Telequipment (became a subsiduary of Tek in later years), EMI / SE Labs (rare outside of UK / Commonwealth countries), and even Marconi Instruments have made some good instruments. If you want a rack mount unit, look out for Memcor scopes - these seem to be a re-badged Tek 647, supplied under a military contract for navigational beacons, and can be got for very little, as no-one realises what they are (I got mine for ?30 including shipping in the UK, and it is a 100MHz unit dual trace unit). There are a number of good books on basic scope theory and use - mine are at work, so I'll check the titles on Monday. For some useful info on probe theory, check this out: http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/probes/ BAMA also has a lot of test equipment manuals and data sheets that are worth looking through. Fluke instruments have just released (at lest in the UK), a CD-ROM which includes a CBT package on basic scope usage, it is free on application. If I think of anything else, I'll write some more! Jim. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 8 15:49:28 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 13:49:28 -0700 Subject: Signetics 8266 References: <42558F16.7EE67DC@cs.ubc.ca> <62849.207.145.53.202.1112904329.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <4256EE56.8596E554@cs.ubc.ca> Thanks, that explains things. With such weird functionality, no wonder the chip didn't make it to the 7400 series. Perhaps it was a custom chip (maybe for those pdp8's) that Signetics released to their general product line. The circuitry in the Wang was misleading in that one of the uses of the chip has an intentional but logically irrelevant (unecessary) connection to the S1 control input. (I had to go to the cctalk archives to find these replies. I've got to get switched over from cctech to cctalk.) jos dreesen wrote: >my 1978 databook lists this device, and weird it is : >A input is inverting, B input is not. > >if S0 is L and S1 is dont care : B to F. > If S0 is H and S1 is L : Anot to F > if S0 is H and S1 is H : F is H. gerold pauler wrote: > They were also used in the pdp8/e/f/m. > The processor maintenance manual revealed on page A-10: > > Control Input Output > C D Yn > > LOW LOW Bn > LOW HIGH Bn > HIGH LOW ~An > HIGH HIGH HIGH > > 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 > I--------------------------------I > I Vcc A4 B4 Y4 Y3 B3 A3 C I > > DEC 8266 Pinout I > I A1 B1 Y1 Y2 B2 A2 D GND I > I--------------------------------I > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 15:55:42 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 13:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <200504082055.NAA03018@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Eric Smith" > >Ashley wrote: >> What kind of scope would I need and how much does one cost? > >Assuming that you want something good but cheap, your best bet is >probably to try to find an old Tek 465. It's a good, solid two-channel >100 MHz scope. ISTR that they show up on eBay frequently, but as >with anything on eBay, there's no telling what condition it would >really be in. > ---snip--- Hi The only issue I've seen with the 465's is that if the sweep frequency switch is broken ( a common failure on these ), this switch is unobtainium. It is good to have more than two chanels of input. It is also useful to have the delayed sweep. Other than that, I like others would recommend a 100MHz as a minimum. Stay away from the 20-30 MHz scopes that are often used for TV repair. You need to get scope probes. These should be 10X probes for doing digital work. Even though Leader doesn't have a good reputation, I've been using one of their high end scopes that has 4 channels, 150 MHz bandwidth and A/B delayed sweep. It has been a good scope. I still like the Tectronix better but when I bought mine ( for $75 ) the Tec's were out of my price range. One thing that I've always wanted to build but have just never had the time is a trigger qualifier. What this is is a large input and gate. It might also have some sequencing as well. Now days, this could be done with some of the FPGA that you reload on each powerup. The idea is that many things that you want to see in a computer need to be qualified by a number of signal and may even require some sequencing to make sure your looking at the right thing. Most logic analysers do this but they rarely have good sequencing control. This is their main weakness. With a reprogrammable FPGA, one can write the formulas and the state sequencing to most any level of complexity. Of course, one can actually buy a logic analyser but like I said, they usually have poor sequencial controls and the display is a little too far removed from the real signals for me. I like to see the real levels that only a scope can provide. Dwight From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 8 15:57:28 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:57:28 +0100 Subject: Maplin Z80A Development kit. Message-ID: <032901c53c7d$9377aec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, I built one of the Maplin (a UK kits and components firm) Z80A development kits back in the early 90's, along with the add-on HEX keypad and 7 segment displays, and used it for a while. I've just re-discovered it, and would like to get it going again, but I need a copy of the monitor ROM, if anyone has it. I would also like the serial interface and PC assembler software that was supplied as a third kit (with a different/replacement) monitor ROM, if anyone has one to spare. I do still have copies of the original circuits and articles for all three kits (Z80 board, Keypad/display board, and serial board), and will post them on my site if anyone is interested. Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 8 16:02:37 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:02:37 +0100 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <033001c53c7e$4d182120$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Sounds a little like the panels on the top of our old DX11 units, which went from PDP11/45 to IBM 9020. The included a whole bunch of Flip Chip logic panels, as well as various Unibus repeater and driver cards. Still have one of the indicator panels somewhere (probably still have a couple of DX11's at work.....) Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:17 PM Subject: Odd DEC panel available. > This turned up while I was collecting some indicators for a control panel > project. > > But this might be something that should not get chopped up, and I'm not > quite sure > what this is (was). > > Its a 19 inch wide, rack mount panel with a 36-bit indicator register using > Dialco 507-3917 incandescent lamps (5 are missing). There are also 4 toggle > switches (one dammaged). > > The panel itself is .250" thick plate, painted grey with hand-written labels > written > on masking tape. > > Behind the panel there are two (DEC) 4918 18-bit Indicator boards with > transistor > drivers and connectors for logic and power. Spade lugs supply the power > while > a single-finger 'unibus-like' female edge connector is used for the logic > signals. > > The toggle switches are connected by multi-couductor flat cable (not modern > ribbon cable) to a 3-66 PERFORATED BOARD W994A, which is a single > finger 'unibus-like' male edge card connector. > > It gets more interesting when I read the handwritten labels above the > indicators. > >From left to right, they read: > > A sel > B sel > Restart > IOT GO > PA PIR 1 thru 7 > PB PIR 1 thru 7 > P0 > P1 > RD RQ > WR RQ > META STP > META ERR > (blank) > PU 1 > P1 > (blank) > FLAG > PIA PDP-6 (3 lamps) > 10 FLAG > PIA PDP-10 (3 lamps) > > I'm guessing this was part of some PDP-10 to PDP-6 interface kludge made > from DEC logic modules. Is this part of some well-known kludge, it > probably > came from MIT's surplus equipment exchange back in the mid 1980's, but > its clearly much older than that. > > Is this something someone wants, or should it be canabilized? > > ( I gotta Google on a PDP-6, I dunno that one, but I know what a -10 is!) > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Apr 8 16:25:37 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 22:25:37 +0100 Subject: Maplin Z80A Development kit. In-Reply-To: <032901c53c7d$9377aec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <032901c53c7d$9377aec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In message <032901c53c7d$9377aec0$0200a8c0 at ntlworld.com> "Jim Beacon" wrote: > I built one of the Maplin (a UK kits and components firm) Z80A development > kits back in the early 90's, along with the add-on HEX keypad and 7 segment > displays, and used it for a while. I've just re-discovered it, and would > like to get it going again, but I need a copy of the monitor ROM, if anyone > has it. I've got the articles but - in true Maplin fashion - the ROMs were only available preprogrammed. > I do still have copies of the original circuits and articles for all three > kits (Z80 board, Keypad/display board, and serial board), and will post them > on my site if anyone is interested. I've got a nearly complete set of Maplin "Electronics: The Maplin Magazine" magazines - I'm after the following issues if anyone's got spares: Sep-Nov 1982 (iss #4) Mar-May 1983 (iss #6) Dec83-Feb84 (iss #9) Mar-May 1984 (iss #10) Jun-Aug 1984 (iss #11) Dec84-Feb85 (iss #13) through Dec85-Feb86 (iss #17) Sep-Nov 1986 (iss #20?) February 1996 July 1996 August 1996 September 1996 October 1996 March 1999 September 1999 October 1999 November 1999 Jan-Aug 2000 October 2000 December 2000 I'd love to get copies of these magazines, but I haven't seen any for a while. IIRC some of the early issues (1-30 IIRC) were re-issued as "Maplin Project Books" (not the "Best of Maplin Projects" books; the original Project Books). These were (I'm told) basically reprints of the magazines, only without the adverts and editorial content. I'd really like to finish my collection up to 1997 if possible - the 1999/2000 issues were right in the middle of the "low quality zone" just before Kanda bought the rights to the magazine from Maplin. Probably worth noting that the name changed from "Electronics: The Maplin Magazine" to "Electronics And Beyond" some time in the 1998-1999 timeframe. IIRC... I'm not that good with dates :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... The future isn't what it used to be. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 8 16:31:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:31:00 +0000 Subject: NVRAM contents, Save some Suns, and a question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1112995860.6009.32.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 22:37 +0200, Arno1983 wrote: > While we're at it: Erlangen University in southern Germany is about to scrap > part of its SUN inventory. There are (several of most types): No Sun 4/330 mainboards or Sun 2 keyboards I take it? :-) Actually, I'll be giving the 4/330 a final try tomorrow with much of the serial hardware isolated. If it still screws up, then it's the custom buffer chip at fault and we definitely need a replacement board (or buffer IC - it's possible that the same chip was used on other very early SPARC machines) cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 8 16:31:27 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:31:27 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <200504082055.NAA03018@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <16982.63535.985855.430998@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: >> From: "Eric Smith" >> >> Ashley wrote: >>> What kind of scope would I need and how much does one cost? >> Assuming that you want something good but cheap, your best bet is >> probably to try to find an old Tek 465. It's a good, solid >> two-channel 100 MHz scope. ISTR that they show up on eBay >> frequently, but as with anything on eBay, there's no telling what >> condition it would really be in. >> Dwight> ---snip--- Dwight> Hi The only issue I've seen with the 465's is that if the Dwight> sweep frequency switch is broken ( a common failure on these Dwight> ), this switch is unobtainium. It is good to have more than Dwight> two chanels of input. True. One reason I like the 7000 series bench scopes is that they give you that capability, with the right plugins. If you need portability, that won't do, but I think for a lot of us a bench scope is suitable too and gives you more choices. Multichannel plugins, differential plugins, even spectrum analyzers (hah, I can dream, right?). paul From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 8 16:39:25 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:39:25 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <200504081739.KAA02886@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > This is great. What are you using to make the molds? I thought of a couple things I'm using that I omitted in my last message: I am using Sculpey modeling clay to hold the handles in place when I pour mold stuff over them. I chose it because it doesn't have water in it (which is supposed to be evil), and it doesn't dry out in the air. The drawback is that it seems to interact slightly with the RTV, so if I had it to do over, I'd probably buy something else. Also, I am using Vaseline to keep the halves of the RTV mold from sticking together. That also interacts with the RTV, so it isn't ideal. Vince From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 8 16:50:34 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 17:50:34 -0400 Subject: OT but cool: ABOVO Personal Communicaion Device Message-ID: <4256FCAA.9090901@mdrconsult.com> I just snagged an ABOVO PCD-P with remote display unit, mostly because it was cheap and it has a keyboard. :) It didn't come with a charger or documentation, and Google is not very forthcoming with information. It seems to be a text-messaging unit, with an ADB computer interface and infrared output to the remote LCD device. http://www.dcdinc.com/abovo.html It's definitely not 10 years old, but IMNSHO it's odd enough for a dispensation. :) Any info, resources, docs, or software would be much appreciated. I have email in to DCD's support, but I'm not counting on much of a response. Doc From medavidson at mac.com Fri Apr 8 16:51:17 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:51:17 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> An update... As I write this, my girlfriend is at home waiting for the delivery truck to show up with the Eclipse... I'm sure she'll call me when it arrives and sees how big it is. *grin* In any case, it's going in the garage for now... when I get back from vacation, I'll be able to get started on making it work. Photos to follow... Mark On Mar 17, 2005, at 7:50 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > Mark, > > I think you're in luck - when I checked the critter a month and a half > ago it > had a physically "big" Hard Disk installed. Keep us informed as to > your > progress!1 > > Cheers, > Lyle > > > n Thursday 17 March 2005 16:50, Mark Davidson wrote: >> On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Tom Uban wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> Lyle sent me the pics and I've put them on my site here: >>> >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-001S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-002S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-004S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-006S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-009S.JPG >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-020S.JPG >>> >>> Hopefully someone will rescue this machine... >>> >>> Disclaimer: Not mine, no connection, etc. >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> At 11:30 PM 2/4/2005 -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>> Second try without attached picture. Apparently the 100K JPEG >>>> picture I >>>> attached in my original email to the list was "too much" for the >>>> list >>>> server >>>> to handle. >>>> >>>> A very clean dual rack DG Eclipse MV/4000 is available in the SF Bay >>>> Area. >>>> [Removed - I've attached a picture] - and have several others with >>>> more >>>> detail which I'll be glad to email off-list to anyone interested. >>>> >>>> I've inspected the the Eclipse and it looks complete - with all >>>> cables, keys, >>>> etc. My guess is that its weight is close to 1000lbs(?). >>>> >>>> If you're interested in the critter, let me know and I'll email you >>>> the >>>> contact information. >>>> >>>> I do not have any relationship to the vendor other than as a >>>> customer. I just >>>> don't like to see beasties like this dismantled for parts or sold >>>> for >>>> scrap... >>>> >>>> Lyle >>>> -- >>>> Lyle Bickley >>>> Bickley Consulting West Inc. >>>> http://bickleywest.com >>>> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" >> >> Just an FYI and an update... >> >> I'm in the final arrangements to purchase this machine... all that is >> left is to arrange the shipping. Fortunately, I'm local to the place >> that has it, so I'm paying them to deliver it to my house (it's >> reasonable enough that my renting a truck and moving it myself would >> cost more). >> >> For now, it's probably going in my garage, where I can inspect, clean >> and test the parts. As each piece is tested, I'll move it into my >> home >> office (after I make room) and continue from there. I guess everyone >> needs a restoration project to occupy their free time? :) >> >> I don't know the status of the disks, so I'm not even sure if it has >> an >> OS on it... if anyone has any pointers to an Eclipse RDOS or AOS/VS >> boot tape, I'd love to be put in touch with them! >> >> Thanks. >> >> Mark Davidson >> medavidson at mac.com > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 8 16:56:27 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 14:56:27 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <200504081801.LAA02965@clulw009.amd.com><4256C7E4.2030009@jetnet.ab.ca> <16982.52080.144000.618301@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Thought I would respond briefly to the various comments people have made: Various people have suggested various means of shaking the mold, to help the bubbles rise. I can put the molds on one of my power tools, and switch it on, to provide some vibration. So that's reasonably easy. There are three kinds of bubbles: 1) little tiny bubbles that are from the mixing of the resin, and from a reaction of the resin to moisture in the air. Mostly I am just ignoring those. They don't affect the result enough to worry about, as yet. 2) The mold can trap air, usually resulting in a medium sized bubble at a particular flat spot or corner in the mold. These are correctable by venting the spot in the mold that tends to trap air. 3)There is a tendency of plastic to ooze into the seam between the mold halves, and this allows air to re-enter the top of the mold. The solution to this is to leave some plastic pooled on top of the mold, and to mitigate the oozing. The way to do that is to press the two halves of the mold more firmly together. As for various suggestions involving vacuum pumps and whatnot; I am aware of the technique, and appreciate your suggestions about how to do it inexpensively. I am still of the opinion, however, that I can get an acceptable result without adding those extra steps. And if I can, I definitely want to, as I think it will make the technique much more approachable to those of us who might want to try it. Thanks for all the positive feedback! Vince From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 8 16:59:45 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 15:59:45 -0600 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> Message-ID: <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Mark Davidson wrote: > An update... > > As I write this, my girlfriend is at home waiting for the delivery > truck to show up with the Eclipse... I'm sure she'll call me when it > arrives and sees how big it is. *grin* > > In any case, it's going in the garage for now... when I get back from > vacation, I'll be able to get started on making it work. Photos to > follow... Better have your girl friend sit shotgun until you get back from you vacation the subject line is "DG Eclipse available ..." :) I'd check the packing anyhow before you leave just to confurm it got there safely. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 8 17:16:01 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:16:01 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> Message-ID: <200504081516.01662.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 08 April 2005 14:51, Mark Davidson wrote: > An update... > > As I write this, my girlfriend is at home waiting for the delivery > truck to show up with the Eclipse... I'm sure she'll call me when it > arrives and sees how big it is. *grin* After she sees how big it is, you'll be able to refer to her as your "ex-girlfriend" ;-) > In any case, it's going in the garage for now... when I get back from > vacation, I'll be able to get started on making it work. Photos to > follow... Cool. Lyle > On Mar 17, 2005, at 7:50 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > Mark, > > > > I think you're in luck - when I checked the critter a month and a half > > ago it > > had a physically "big" Hard Disk installed. Keep us informed as to > > your > > progress!1 > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > > > > n Thursday 17 March 2005 16:50, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> On Feb 5, 2005, at 12:20 PM, Tom Uban wrote: > >>> Hello, > >>> > >>> Lyle sent me the pics and I've put them on my site here: > >>> > >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-001S.JPG > >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-002S.JPG > >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-004S.JPG > >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-006S.JPG > >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-009S.JPG > >>> http://www.ubanproductions.com/MVC-020S.JPG > >>> > >>> Hopefully someone will rescue this machine... > >>> > >>> Disclaimer: Not mine, no connection, etc. > >>> > >>> --tom > >>> > >>> At 11:30 PM 2/4/2005 -0800, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >>>> Second try without attached picture. Apparently the 100K JPEG > >>>> picture I > >>>> attached in my original email to the list was "too much" for the > >>>> list > >>>> server > >>>> to handle. > >>>> > >>>> A very clean dual rack DG Eclipse MV/4000 is available in the SF Bay > >>>> Area. > >>>> [Removed - I've attached a picture] - and have several others with > >>>> more > >>>> detail which I'll be glad to email off-list to anyone interested. > >>>> > >>>> I've inspected the the Eclipse and it looks complete - with all > >>>> cables, keys, > >>>> etc. My guess is that its weight is close to 1000lbs(?). > >>>> > >>>> If you're interested in the critter, let me know and I'll email you > >>>> the > >>>> contact information. > >>>> > >>>> I do not have any relationship to the vendor other than as a > >>>> customer. I just > >>>> don't like to see beasties like this dismantled for parts or sold > >>>> for > >>>> scrap... > >>>> > >>>> Lyle > >>>> -- > >>>> Lyle Bickley > >>>> Bickley Consulting West Inc. > >>>> http://bickleywest.com > >>>> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > >> > >> Just an FYI and an update... > >> > >> I'm in the final arrangements to purchase this machine... all that is > >> left is to arrange the shipping. Fortunately, I'm local to the place > >> that has it, so I'm paying them to deliver it to my house (it's > >> reasonable enough that my renting a truck and moving it myself would > >> cost more). > >> > >> For now, it's probably going in my garage, where I can inspect, clean > >> and test the parts. As each piece is tested, I'll move it into my > >> home > >> office (after I make room) and continue from there. I guess everyone > >> needs a restoration project to occupy their free time? :) > >> > >> I don't know the status of the disks, so I'm not even sure if it has > >> an > >> OS on it... if anyone has any pointers to an Eclipse RDOS or AOS/VS > >> boot tape, I'd love to be put in touch with them! > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> Mark Davidson > >> medavidson at mac.com > > > > -- > > Lyle Bickley > > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From medavidson at mac.com Fri Apr 8 17:25:42 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:25:42 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005, at 2:59 PM, woodelf wrote: > Mark Davidson wrote: > >> An update... >> >> As I write this, my girlfriend is at home waiting for the delivery >> truck to show up with the Eclipse... I'm sure she'll call me when it >> arrives and sees how big it is. *grin* >> >> In any case, it's going in the garage for now... when I get back from >> vacation, I'll be able to get started on making it work. Photos to >> follow... > > Better have your girl friend sit shotgun until you get back from you > vacation > the subject line is "DG Eclipse available ..." :) I'd check the > packing anyhow > before you leave just to confurm it got there safely. *grin* I will... actually, I think I'm going to have to make a special trip to the jewelry store for her. They just delivered the machine and she called me, saying "Oh my God, another computer!" (I recently picked up a Symbolics as well). She doesn't understand WHY these machines make me happy, but in reality, she likes me to be happy. Of course, I'm not at home so I can't comment on the packing, but I know they re-palleted the machine before delivering it. Time will tell as to the condition. Now I just need the boot tapes to arrive... I just hope they locked the drive heads before it was originally picked up from the starting location (which I had no control over). Mark From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 8 18:00:08 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:00:08 -0500 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050408180008.3fd312bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 23:32:57 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 7, 2005 8:53 PM, Scott Stevens wrote: > > And IPXs are almost free these days. IPCs are not only 'free', they > > use give-away memory (30 pin 1, 4, or 16 MB simms). > > Agreed, but if one has a source of 32MB (not 16MB) parity 72-pin SIMMs > (36-bits), a pair of them goes nicely in a SPARCclassic or LX, along > with 4 16MB 36-bit 72-pin SIMMs to load up the box to the max 96MB, a > respectable amount if one is not running X. > > IPXs, IPCs, SPARC1s, etc., all suffer from one weakness... dead or > dying NVRAM batteries. There are answers in the Sun NVRAM FAQ, but > one does have to be aware of the issue before the machine comes up > inert (FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF MAC address) one day. > If you're too late (and these days you're almost certain to be too late with those old boxes,) you either 'make up' a MAC address after you solder the exterior battery onto the NVRAM module (there is a well documented procedure on this) or you 'own' a block of MAC addresses like I do (somebody had officially gotten a big block of MAC addresses for some embedded project and gave out extra blocks he didn't need. I have a block of 256 for my personal use). Or you can find some ancient 3Com NIC, say a 3c503 or the like, 'retire' it and and steal it's MAC address. Best practice, of course, is to know the original MAC address to replace. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 16:27:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:27:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intellec MDS questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050407231409.00b20c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 7, 5 11:14:09 pm Message-ID: > > Good info, Tony! I have a lot of it already but it's all crude paper > drawings, this is nicely organized so I'll save it in my permanent archives. I extracted it from the comb-bound A3 schematic diagram set that came with the double density controller. It wasn't totally trivial to do -- the signals are not named on the cable wirelists, only on the controller PCB schematis (which use a different pin numbering scheme to the cable connectors!) and the drive kludgeboard. I named all the signals so I could make sure it all made sense. Incidetnally, I'd be careful about the numbering of the pins on the Blue Ribbon connector. Although the diagram shows it numbers as 1-25 on one side and 26-50 on the other, I think it makes more sense if the odd numbered pins are on one side, the even numbered pins on the other, like a header socket. That way you'd get grounds between all the signal lines on the ribbon cable and the cable would just be a straight-through IDC one. Feel free to put this info on web sites, etc... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 17:20:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:20:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> from "Ashley Carder" at Apr 8, 5 09:44:27 am Message-ID: > > I'm rapidly approaching the point where I will > need to learn how to use an oscilloscope as part > of my quest to learn more about debugging the > old DEC hardware. What kind of advice can folks > offer to me about a decent scope and some info on > how to use one? I think I used one 30 years ago > in school, but it's been so long that I remember > little-to-nothing about it. OK, a little introduction... The basic idea of a 'scope is to have a CRT where the spot is deflected horizontally by the X-plates and vertically by the Y plates. Therefore the picture on the screen is a graph of the voltage applied to X against the volage applied to Y. Now, normally the X-voltage is a ramp signal produced by a circuit called the 'timebase'. The spot on the screen starts at the left side, moves across at a constant speed until it gets to the right hand side, then quickly 'flies back' to the left side and starts again. This means the screen image can be considered to be a graph of the signal on the Y plates against time. There is also normallly an amplifier that takes the signal under test and amplifies it to apply to the Y plates, for obvious reasons. Finally, there's a trigger circuit. It's obviously essential (at least for repetitive waveforms) that the trace starts on the same point of the waveform each time. Otherwise you'll not get a steady display. Same point really means same voltage and sloping in the same direction (either up or down). This then starts the timebase ramp. Notice I said 'normally' when I said the X-axis was the timebase signal. On most 'scopes yuo can apply external signals to both X and Y. This is how you get the lissajou's figure beloved of science fiction film producers, and which do actually have some real use for comparing the phase of 2 sinusoidal signals. I also said 'normally' when I mentioned the Y amplifier. There have been a few 'scopes where the input is applied directly to the CRT plates, normally because no normal amplifier would have a high enough bandwidth. The Tektronix 519 is the clasic example of this. You DO NOT want one of these for general-purpose work. Some 'scopes can display multiple traces -- that is serveral signals at the same time, normally on one common timebase. You can then compare the relative phase or timing of those 2 signals. There are 2 main ways to do this -- double beam scopes have 2 electron guns and display 2 spots simultaneously. The CRT has separate Y plates for the 2 beams and normally a common set of X plates but there have been 'scopes with separate X plates for each beam too. The other way is to electronically switch one set of plates between the 2 signals -- either 'chopping' which involbes swithcing between the 2 signals in much less than the timebase sweep time (so effectively you are displaying them simultaneously) or 'alternate' where you select one input, sweep the timebase (thus displaying it), then select the other input, sweep the timebase again, and so on. Note that some double-beam 'scopes can take multiple trace plug-ins on each input. So you might have one beam switched between 2 signals, the other switched between 4, and thus have 6 traces o nthe screen at once... Storage 'scopes are always useful. This means the image on the screen is stored, either electrostatically in the CRT, or by digitising the input signal, then 'playing it back' to the CRT. This means you just need one sweep of the timebase to capture the signal, you can then look at it for as long as you (sensibly) like. This is obviously useful for non-repetitive signals, which can't be usefully displayed on a repetitive timebase and a non-storage CRT. Delayed timebase is also very useful. What this does is to detect the trigger, then wait a certain (settable) time, then sweep the timebase. You might, for example, waits 10ms, then sween the timebase in 100us. This lets you 'enlarge' a small section of a complex waveform. Differential Inputs. Many 'socpes can display the difference in voltage between 2 input sockets, ignoring the voltage between them and ground (there will be a limit on this voltage, so don't try applying 1000V or anything stupid). You might want to look at the outputs of the differential amplifiers in a disk drive read chain or something Plug-ins. Many of the better older 'socpes had the Y input stages (at least) as plug-in modules that could be replaced with other modules. You might get simple amplifiers, multiple-trace amplifiers, differential amplifiers, curve tracers, etc. Personally, I like this idea, but collecting the plug-ins becomes as addictive as collecting computers... Now, as to user controls : 1) CRT images controls. Birghtness and Focus, basically. Keep the brightness as low as you can, both to protect the CRT phosphor and to give a sharper trace 2) Shift controls (X and Y) move the trace around the screen. Pretty obvious. Multiple-trace 'scopes have a Y shift control for each trace. Multiple timebase 'scopes have an X shift control for each timebase. 3) Y amplifier gain. There'll be a switch calibrated in 'V/cm' or 'V per division' or something like that. The meaning is pretty obvious. If you set it to 2V/cm and the trace is 1.5cm high on the screen, that's 3V. There will also be an adjustable control with a click-stop at one end. This lets you very the gain, at the click-stop position you get the gain marked on the switch. 4) Timebase speed. Similar in concept to the gain controls, but calibrated in s/cm (or ms/cm. us/cm). If a trace on the screen taks 5cm for a complete cycle, and you have the timebase set to 10ms/cm. then that's a period of 50ms, or a frequency of 20Hz. Again there will be a variable control with a click-stop to get you the calibrated times 5) Trigger. There will be a trigger level control that sets the voltage level that starts the ramp, and a slope switch that selects between rising and falling. THere will also normally be a trigger selector, which lets you take the trigger sigal either from the Y amplifier (normal for simple work), another input socket (you might, for example, want to trigger from the index signal of a disk drive, but display the output of the read amplifier -- in fact that's exactly what you do for head alignment), 'line' (trigers from a transformed-down mains signal, useful for seeing if a ripple comes from the mains or not), and maybe some 'TV' modes, useful for locking to a video signal and useless for almost everything else. As to good 'socpes. I would recomend a Tektronix, there are very few bad designs -- but there are some very specialised ones that are not suitable for what you want. Depending on the sort of instrument you want, you might consider : 545, 547, 555 -- Old, heavy, full of valves, and built beautifully. People collect these like we collect PDP11s, but some people also like having a more modern 'scope alongside them, rather as most people who have classic computers have a modern PC too (I don't!. I have my 555 and love it). Plug-in amplifiers, very versatile. The manuals are nothing short of excellent! 561, 564. Smaller, valved, not as high bandwidth IIRC. The 564 is a CRT storage 'scope 465, 466, 468, etc. Smaller, portable. I think the 468 is a storage 'scope, one of that series is, anyway. No plug-ins. Transistorised. 7000 series. Plug-ins for X ad Y. Full of custom ICs that are essentially unobtainium now. I used a 7904 (2 Y plug-ins, 2 X plug-ins, 500MHz bandwidth) at university, and loved it. But due to the custom chips I'd not want one as my only 'scope Avoid the 5000 series. They're low-bandwidth devices, not what you want at all. The manuals have really gone down for more recent 'scopes. You don't even get a schematic now... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 17:21:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:21:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> from "quapla@xs4all.nl" at Apr 8, 5 03:56:42 pm Message-ID: > No idea though where to find a website teaching scope usage, but maybe > Tony Duell know a few???? Alas I learnt to use a 'socpe long before there even was a world-wide web, so I've never looked for a site on how to use one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 17:27:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:27:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <7eceb2f7ecf3e6.7ecf3e67eceb2f@optonline.net> from "dvcorbin@optonline.net" at Apr 8, 5 11:08:21 am Message-ID: > > > Are there any good web sites that > > would give some basic info on "scopes for dummies" > > or "scopes for beginners"? > > > > 1) Turn on 'scope > 2) Dwiddle random knobs till you see squiglly lines > 3) Nod knowingly... Argh NO! You'll get a trace that way, but it may well not be meaningful. I once helped a studnet doing a practical on an LC series circuit. I think he was looking at the phase relationship between the applied sinusoidal voltage and the voltage across the capacitor. And he couldn't get any sort of sane results. IIRC he saw almost no phase change at all. He was using a standard (albeit cheap) modern double-trace 'scope, which would have been quite capable of doing what he wanted. But he had one control set wrongly. He got a trace, but it wasn't meaningful. OK, what was he doing wrong. Some of you will get this instantly, I think... Rememebr 'It is much rasier to make measurements than to know what you are measuring' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 17:42:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:42:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <0c1801c53c53$6cdcf7e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Apr 8, 5 11:55:44 am Message-ID: > > Subquestion Number one for me would be the reasoning why > those probes are so important. How bad are readings taken > with just direct wired connections? Very! Using a normal piece of cable will load the signal under test ,mostly due to the capacitance of the cable. This means the signal is no longer what it was before you connected the cable. So you're not seeing the real picture. Worse than that, the mangled signal may well make the rest of the device-under-test malfunction. A simple DC experiment to show what I mean. Connect 2 10M resistors in series across a 10V supply. I think we agree that there's 5V dropped across each resistor. Now measure the voltage across one of them with your normal DVM. Unless you have a really exotic DVM, I'll wager you will not read 5V. You'll read 3.3V. The reason is that the DVM has a 10M input impedance, when you connect that in parallel with one of the 10M resistors in your circuit, you effectively get a 10M in series with a 5M. Now for the 'scope it's even worse. You're dealing with AC signals so the capacitance of the cable matters. Worse, the impedance presented to the circuit depends onthe frequecy. The edges of square waves get rounded off. If you're not careful you'll get LC 'ringing'. The idea of the probe is to make a potential divider from the 'scope input and components in the probe, typically a /10 ratio. And to 'compensate' the capacitance of the cable/scope input so that the potential divider has the same division ratio at all frequencies. It turns out that if you shunt (parallel) the resistors of a potential divider with capacitors, then the potential divider is frequency-independant if the time constant of the 2 sections is the same. In the case of the 'scope you can't do anythign about the capacitance of the 'scope and cable, so you connect a compensating capacitor in parallel with the resistor in the probe. And since that resistor has 9 times the resistance of the 'scope input, the capacitor you use has 1/9 the capacitance (to keep the time constants the same> The circuit sees that capacitor in series with the capacitance of the 'scope input/cable, in other words a lot less than the latter on its own. For very high frequncy work, you put a buffer amplifier actually inside the probe. This is designed to drive the capacitance of the cable and scope, but to have a low input capacitance itself (and since it is in the probe, there's no capacitance of the cable on the input side to worry about). It's relatively easy to put a transistorised amplifier in the probe, but I even have a Tekky 'cathode follower probe' that has a sub-miniature triode valve inside (!). > > Should a scope rating 2X the computer clock speed keep the > readings useful? Make that 3* the clock speed IMHO. You really want to see at least the 3rd harmonic of any signal. Watch out for bandwidth specifications. The correct way to specify them (IMHO) is the point at which the gain of the amplifier is 3db down from its maximum. Reputable companies do this. But the same guys who make 300W PC speakers powered by a 12W wall-wart seem to have got their hands on 'scope specifications too. I've come to the conclusion that for some companies, a '50MHz scope' is one where if you crank the Y gain up to maximum, apply the maximum allowed voltage to the input at 50MHz, then you might see a trace that bears some sort of resemblance to the input signal... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 17:48:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:48:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <0IEN007BS1HD8V9D@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 8, 5 01:20:38 pm Message-ID: > My everyday bench scope is a B&K 20mhz dual trace as it's fairly > small and warms up fast. I have no hesitation to use it for logic > in the 20+ mhz range, however I understand how it behaves and I will agree with that. I believe in testing 'new' instruments by seeing how they (mis)behave when pushed sensibly beyond their specifications. Obviously if the spec says 'maximum voltage 10V', you don't apply mains to it. But I do like to see what a 'scope -- particularly a digitising 'scope -- does to signals beyond its speciifed bandwidth. It's going to happen one day, and I don't want ot get confused. > what I'm seeing as a result. If I realy need to see more I have > "big guns" for for the task but rarely use them. I do more with a > VOM and cheap logic probe before I resort to scopes and logic > analysers. I rarely use a 'scope either. About the only times I need it are for sorting out SMPSU and for aligning disk heads. For a long time I used an analogur VOM and a logic probe. I did a lot of work with those, and still could. Now I tend to use the Fluke DVM I picked up cheap (but I keep the analogue one to hand, it's better for some jobs) and the LogicDart. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 17:52:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:52:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: battery desoldering advice In-Reply-To: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 8, 5 01:29:45 pm Message-ID: > > I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the quartersized/style > one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a clip arrangement that > you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, it is in fact soldered or > spot welded into the clip somehow. As a result, I'd rather not just cut the > clip arms to replace the battery as I'd have trouble getting the new one in. This sounds like a PCB-mounted lithium cell. You buy the replacement with the 'clip' spot-welded onto it (last one I got, I got from Farnell, I guess there are Stateside syppliers too). You desolder the whole thing from the PCB, then solder in the replacement. > > The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it > strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. I would not want to solder to a lithium cell. There is a very real risk of it exploding. -tony From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 8 18:15:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:15:10 -0500 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050408181510.475e08a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 02:18:29 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 8, 2005 1:37 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Shoot, systems a lot better than those are free or almost free. I > > got my Sun Ultra 60/2300 basically for free from a friend. > > Wow! I wish I had friends like that. I'd be happy for an Ultra5 for > free or nearly free. > I walked out of the auction about a year ago to haul some old Zenith laptops to the car that I had purchased. When I got back into the building, the whole skid, with at least 20 or so Ultra 5/10/20 machines on it was just closing. The final bid was $100, before I could get in to raise it. To make it even worse, at the next auction at that location, someone who knew the buyer told me 'he couldn't figure any of those systems out and just scrapped it all.' I still can make myself angry by thinking about that incident. I was completely unaware the next items up for bid were going to be those skids. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 8 18:18:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 18:18:31 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> <006301c53c44$fdbde350$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <20050408181831.20c2d8e1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 10:12:25 -0400 "Ashley Carder" wrote: > > Ed said: > > > > Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you > > need to get the Tektronix 645B. They are widely available 2nd hand, > > look at your favourite auction website for one. Proces vary between > > $100 and $200. > > You sure that's a 645B and not a 465B? I see a number of 465B > scopes, but no 645B. > > - Ashley > When I worked at a Micrographics lab (a 'COM Shop') in the late 70's, there was always a Tek 465 scope stuck in the back corner. The CEs who serviced the PDP-8 computers built into the cameras used it. I now have a 465M as one of my 'scopes at home. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Apr 8 18:49:32 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 00:49:32 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > 465, 466, 468, etc. Smaller, portable. I think the 468 is a storage > 'scope, one of that series is, anyway. No plug-ins. Transistorised. The 466 and 468 are both storage scopes - the 466 is electrostatic (analogue) storage, the 468 is digital storage. I've got a 466 here - it's a lovely scope and parts are still available from various people (Deane Kidd for one). I should know - I've just had to buy a new knob for the horizontal position control on my 466 after slipping while adjusting the handle... the scope flew forward and the knob got cracked. I didn't notice the crack until the knob shattered completely :( If you're after the custom chips, Sphere Research () have got stocks of some of them. The only part that IIRC is difficult to get for 466 scopes is the motor for the cooling fan. I suppose you could replace the motor/impeller assembly with a 120mm axial blower though. > The manuals have really gone down for more recent 'scopes. You don't even > get a schematic now... Ah, but the 466 manual has pull-out schematics and parts lists for every single major module (basically every single PCB). I try and avoid recent hardware due to the lack of schematics and service data, although the same applies (to a lesser degree) to older equipment. I'm after a maintenance manual for a Solartron 7150 - I've got the operator's manual but I want the schematics for reference (in case I end up fixing it at some point). I also want to know which chip(s) to pull and read out in an EPROM burner. Firmware ROMs don't last forever :) Speaking of which, the Tek 466 manual also includes a hex dump of the 6301 (?) PROM that runs the storage subsystem. Tek even included a state transition diagram... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Govt investigations contribute more to amusement than knowledge. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 18:54:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:54:19 -0400 Subject: NVRAM contents, Save some Suns, and a question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 4:37 PM, Arno1983 wrote: > Not quite. In some guide, I remember there was a "quick-and-dirty" way of > assembling some bogus NVRAM info for Suns. Basically you only have to get > the machine class designation right (there is a table for this) and you must > set the manufacturer part of the MAC ID to 8:0:20, or you'll get complaints > about a broken main board. The rest is totally free, so one usually winds up > with host parts and serial no.s that read de:ad or c0:ff:ee or anything like > that... Yes... One can replace the battery and synthesize any 24-bit-portion of the MAC address one wants to get the machine back up and running, as long as there aren't two machines with the same (fake) MAC address on the same wire. I did not mean to suggest that the machine was a worthless doorstop if the battery died. I probably should have said that work would be required to bring it back to useful status. If one writes down the MAC address before the battery dies, one can, of course, put it back in later. > On the other hand, Sun still maintains a complete database of the NVRAM > infos programmed into any machine that was delivered. If you want to get it > historically correct, you want to put those values back; in order to get > them, you have to read the four (later: six) character NVRAM ID off the > white or yellow bar-code sticker on the NVRAM. Then, the guys at sunopsis > (The Sun Museum) can help you. My contact person there is ruediger (dot) > frenk (at) sun (dot) com, he'll sure help you too. That is, if you don't > flood him all at once now. I was unaware there was a free way to get that info from the yellow tag. I need to shoot these guys a small stack of ID numbers from a wad of dead ones I have. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 18:56:39 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:56:39 -0400 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. In-Reply-To: <033001c53c7e$4d182120$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> <033001c53c7e$4d182120$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 5:02 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: > Sounds a little like the panels on the top of our old DX11 units, which went > from PDP11/45 to IBM 9020. The included a whole bunch of Flip Chip logic > panels, as well as various Unibus repeater and driver cards. Still have one > of the indicator panels somewhere (probably still have a couple of DX11's at > work.....) I wish I could find one of those panels (they are generic and used by a wad of options). Mine would go on an RK11-C that would then go on a PDP-11/20. Until I locate or replicate an indicator panel, I do have plenty of other hardware to restore, so I can bide my time. I didn't know that any variants came with switches, though. -ethan From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 8 18:57:42 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:57:42 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <200504081657.42956.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Friday 08 April 2005 06:44, Ashley Carder wrote: ---snip--- > What kind of scope would I need and how much does > one cost? Are there any good web sites that > would give some basic info on "scopes for dummies" > or "scopes for beginners"? > > Thanks in advance for your advice. This is > a never-ending learning experience. Tektronix has a simple tutorial about oscilloscopes and how to make basic measurements: http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/ programs/xyz_scopes/&FrameSet=oscilloscopes You do have to give them your email address (registration), but IIRC it's a pretty good XYZs of 'scopes tutorial. Table of Contents ----------------- Signal Integrity The Oscilloscope Types of Oscilloscopes Systems and Controls Complete Measurement System Performance Terms and Considerations Operating the Oscilloscope Oscilloscope Measurement Techniques Written Exercises Glossary Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 8 19:03:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures Message-ID: <200504090003.RAA03061@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "vrs" > >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> This is great. What are you using to make the molds? > >Well, I went into the local TAP Plastics, described what I wanted to do to >the nice saleslady, and ended up with these products: > >**Mold Making** >TAP Silicone RTV System, Side A and Side B. Side B comes in a couple of >color coded versions. I chose "TAP Silicone RTV Catalyst GREEN", which has >a 1 hour working time, and a 24 hour cure. This stuff is easy to work with, >and hardens to a rubbery consistency, very much what you want for >mold-making. It is white until you mix in the catalyst, which dyes it >green. > >**Casting** >Quick Cast TAP Casting Resin, Side A and Side B. This stuff hardens into a >stiff plastic, perfect for switch handles :-). Side A and Side B are clear, >but the result will be white after it cures. This color change makes it >more difficult to predict the effect of the colorants. This stuff has a >very short working time -- a few minutes. It is recommended to remove the >parts from the mold in an hour (don't know why; some kind of chemical >reaction with the mold is predicted, but I've never seen it). > >**Colorant** >TAP Premium Pigment, in yellow, brown, red, and blue. These are added in >small quantities to Side B of the resin, before side A is added. Only a >very small amount of the pigment will actually stir into side B (most of the >pigment just lays there, no matter how much you stir.) > >Hope that helps :-). More later... > > Vince Hi Vince Someone told me that it was a good idea to use PAM ( cooking spray ) as a mold release. This may help with issues of leaving it in the mold too long. Dwight From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 8 19:06:42 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:06:42 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <200504081712.j38HBMpS071734@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504090006.j3906bHI004616@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> You can buy an HP 4M Plus for under $50. This is a high-end printer, even by today's standards. It's 12 pages per minute, PCL5, Postscript, serial, parallel and it has an MIO slot into which you can plug in a built-in Ethernet print server. It's an old printer (they will be more than a decade old, probably), but everything is still available, it's based on the "EX" engine, which is excellent (the same engine is used in the LaserJet 5, by the way). From dan at ekoan.com Fri Apr 8 19:31:18 2005 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:31:18 -0400 Subject: New book In-Reply-To: References: <200503301148.MAA04400@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050408201955.08c9db90@mail.marcal.com> At 03:49 PM 4/2/05, you wrote: >Sneak Preview: > >http://www.vintage.org/library.php [...] >Suggestions always welcome. Three additional non-technical "story" books specific to individual companies, produced by those companies: How It All Began: Hewlett-Packard's Loveland Facility Kenneth Jessen (c) 1999, Agilent Technologies ISBN 1-928656-02-1 Digital At Work: Snapshots From the First Thirty-Five Years Jamie Parker Pearson, Editor (c) 1992, Digital Equipment Corporation ISBN 1-55558-092-0 Inside Out: Microsoft - In Our Own Words (c) 2000, Microsoft Corporation ISBN 0-446-52739-4 Cheers, Dan From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 8 19:40:30 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:40:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > If you want a rack mount unit, look out for Memcor > scopes - these seem to be a re-badged Tek 647, supplied under a military > contract for navigational beacons, and can be got for very little, as no-one > realises what they are (I got mine for ?30 including shipping in the UK, and > it is a 100MHz unit dual trace unit). Watch out! The military scopes that look like Teks but are not are really bad clones (Lavoies are the worst). They were made under license and just are not up to Tek standards. When they were in service they were the curse of the ET and Tech Rep crowd. Also watch out for Tek scopes that were made for the military. Look closely on many, and you will discover a few features were left out of the military models (generally AN/USM-somethings), but look nearly identical. Some shady dealers do not point these differences out. Final thought with scopes - stick to HPs or Teks. Everything else tends to be either junk or exotica. The rule is "for fast stuff, get a Tek, for slow stuff, get an HP". William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 8 19:43:55 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:43:55 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <200504090003.RAA03061@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Someone told me that it was a good idea to use > PAM ( cooking spray ) as a mold release. This may help > with issues of leaving it in the mold too long. I tried PAM, and it seemed to me to be beading up, rather than wetting the silicone surface. I decided not to trust it, and washed it all off, before using the Vaseline. I'm sure there's some product made for this, and "only" $12/bottle... The RTV silicone (that the molds are made of) is relatively expensive, and the last thing I wanted to have happen is to find the two halves of the mold glued together. Vince From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Apr 8 19:45:10 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 20:45:10 EDT Subject: Reviving Suns when NVRAM dies (was UNIX on old-ish machines) Message-ID: <1d8.3a76c910.2f887f96@aol.com> Regarding resetting the NVRAM bits, especially the MAC number: If it has a disk, dmesg is your friend (on SunOS anyway, too lazy to fire up the Solaris box). The MAC address is saved in the syslog each boot. I seem to recall that the Sun NVRAM FAQ doesn't point this out, but it saved me from having to "invent" a MAC on my IPX -Scott Quinn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 19:55:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 01:55:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 9, 5 00:49:32 am Message-ID: > > The manuals have really gone down for more recent 'scopes. You don't even > > get a schematic now... > > Ah, but the 466 manual has pull-out schematics and parts lists for every > single major module (basically every single PCB). I try and avoid recent > hardware due to the lack of schematics and service data, although the same > applies (to a lesser degree) to older equipment. I'm after a maintenance > manual for a Solartron 7150 - I've got the operator's manual but I want the My first 'scope, I still have it, was a Solartron CD1400. It came not only with a computer operating/service manual (including schematics), but also a quick-reference guide that slotted into a metal pocket on the back of the 'scope. That contained abridged operating instructions _and_ the full schematics. Solartrond DVM manuals (and the manual for the DTU [1]) contain schematics, or at least the oens I have do. [1] Data Transfer Unit. A data logger without the ADC. It connected to the printer output port on just about any DVM, translated the data a digit at a time into any up-to-8-bit code (there was a 16*8 diode matrix ROM) and then conencted to a teletype or Facit 4070 tape punch. The thing could take relay boards to connect several inputs sequentially to the DVM, a clock board that could cause it to take readings ever so often (and output the time to the tty or punch), and so on. Quite an interesting piece of history. > schematics for reference (in case I end up fixing it at some point). I also > want to know which chip(s) to pull and read out in an EPROM burner. Firmware > ROMs don't last forever :) > > Speaking of which, the Tek 466 manual also includes a hex dump of the 6301 > (?) PROM that runs the storage subsystem. Tek even included a state > transition diagram... That was quite common at one time. DEC PDP11 and PDP8 manuals often included ROM dumps, flowcharts, state diagrams, and so on. These machines wre _documented_ Alas I only have the preliminary manual for my Philips P854, so I am laking the mciroocde source. I do have schematics. I also have the manual for the 4-channel serial card. This is microprocessor based (I think 8085), and the manual includes a sourve listing of the control ROM. The manual for the SMPSU contains a couple of pages of waveforms round the chopper circuit. It warns that this is live to mains, and that the PSU should be run from an isolating transformer for these measurements. Should this be impossible, it suggests removing the mains earth lead from the 'scope and 'floating it'. Somehow the idea of a 'scope with the chasiss at about 120V wet local ground (the mains input of the SMPSU is the standard bridge rectifier cirucit) doesn't thrill me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 8 20:01:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 02:01:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 8, 5 08:40:30 pm Message-ID: > Final thought with scopes - stick to HPs or Teks. Everything else tends t= I would add LeCroy to that list. Certainly the LeCroy DSO I used briefly seemed to be a very good instrument (and when new, they were considerably more expensive than Tek...) A friend of mine, lucky beggar, has a LeCroy DSO with a processor built from AMD2901s in it. Now that's an instrument I would like to own. > o > be either junk or exotica. The rule is "for fast stuff, get a Tek, for > slow stuff, get an HP". I was told 'Scopes come from Tek, Spectrum analysers from HP. Don't get it the wrong way round' :-) -tony From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Apr 8 20:04:03 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:04:03 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <20050408180008.3fd312bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050408180008.3fd312bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1113008643.11623.7.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 18:00 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > Or you can find some ancient 3Com NIC, say a 3c503 or the like, 'retire' > it and and steal it's MAC address. Best practice, of course, is to know > the original MAC address to replace. > If there's FlexLM (Elan?) licensed software on the machine, (and you can get it booted) you can usually look at the appropriate license.dat file, note the HostID in the file, and then use that to generate the ethernet address, as (IIRC) on older Sun's the ethernet address is: 8:0:20:aa:bb:cc where '80aabbcc' is the hostid. (YMMV, as my memory has faded somewhat, but it does pan out on the few SS-5/Ultra5 class machines I just verified it on) David From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 8 19:50:00 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:50:00 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <20419.192.18.240.12.1112968602.squirrel@192.18.240.12> References: <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> <002801c53c41$16089850$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050408205000.0164bbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:56 PM 4/8/05 +0200, you wrote: > >Well, if you want the original 'Dec Fieldservice Oscilloscope', you >need to get the Tektronix 645B. They are widely available 2nd hand, >look at your favourite auction website for one. Proces vary between >$100 and $200. I think you mean Tek 465 not 645. The Tek 465s are ^H^H^H WERE great scopes. An all time classic IMO. BUT now they all seem to be developing the "bad capacitor" syndrome and that can be a real pain to repair. The last one that I bought used a plastic push rod to operate one of the plastic switches located well inside the unit. It was ok when I bought it but as soon as I tried to use it the plastic crumbled so that's another problem due to aging. If you're considering a 465 I'd suggest that you check it out thoroughly before buying. I recently bought a Tek 2445* and I'm pleased with it. It's series has a bad reputation because they use hybrid parts in them that are failur eprone and impossible to obtain. As a result scopes in the series sell cheap. However the 2445 doesn't use the hybrids so it's cheap, reliable and repairable (I hope!) * 4 channels, automatic setup, on screen readouts, 150 MHz. Joe > >No idea though where to find a website teaching scope usage, but maybe >Tony Duell know a few???? I don't know about websites but In the 60's they published a number of small cheap "how to use a scope" type books that were quite good. You should be able to find some of them in used book stores, E-bay, libraries, etc. Howard Sams Co seemed to also have good books in those days. Joe > >Ed > > >> I'm rapidly approaching the point where I will >> need to learn how to use an oscilloscope as part >> of my quest to learn more about debugging the >> old DEC hardware. What kind of advice can folks >> offer to me about a decent scope and some info on >> how to use one? I think I used one 30 years ago >> in school, but it's been so long that I remember >> little-to-nothing about it. >> >> One of my first exercises might be to attempt >> a head alignment on an RK05 drive using an >> alignment pack. I have all the documentation >> for the drive maintenance, etc. >> >> What kind of scope would I need and how much does >> one cost? Are there any good web sites that >> would give some basic info on "scopes for dummies" >> or "scopes for beginners"? >> >> Thanks in advance for your advice. This is >> a never-ending learning experience. >> >> Ashley >> >> > > > From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Apr 8 21:57:59 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:57:59 EDT Subject: NVRAM battery replacement Message-ID: <1c0.2635ba18.2f889eb7@aol.com> I pulled the coin-cell holder off of an old PC clone PC board and then epoxied it to the top of the NVRAM- works well and will make future changes easy. Ethan- the DS1287 is the one used in SGIs (I2, Indy), isn't it? how did you go about fixing it? [e.g. where in it is the batt. &cet.](all of my SGIs are currently working, but the clock is ticking . . .) - Scott Quinn From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 22:17:51 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:17:51 -0400 Subject: NVRAM battery replacement In-Reply-To: <1c0.2635ba18.2f889eb7@aol.com> References: <1c0.2635ba18.2f889eb7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 10:57 PM, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > I pulled the coin-cell holder off of an old PC clone PC board and then > epoxied it to the top of the NVRAM- works well and will make future changes easy. I thought about that, but I was worried about long-term mechanical stability, and vertical clearance (with Sbus cards). > Ethan- the DS1287 is the one used in SGIs (I2, Indy), isn't it? how did you > go about fixing it? [e.g. where in it is the batt. &cet.](all of my SGIs are > currently working, but the clock is ticking . . .) I do not know what is used in the Indy, etc.; this one was out of a Compaq SLT/286. I didn't have a replacement, and when I got a sample of the modern part (DS12C887?), I noted several compatiblity warnings. I opted instead, to recycle a DS1287 from another board that wasn't quite dead yet. That's what's in the SLT at the moment. As for the surgery, when I had nothing to lose, I started dismantling the top of the DS chip... it seems that several of the pins that are not present at the bottom are in fact bent 180 degrees to the ordinary orientation, and are present at the top. I carved away the epoxy until I could tear out the cores of the old batteries (this was exploratory surgery after all). I eventually discovered where the battery leads are (around pins 5-8, IIRC), and could probably just detach the cells from the chip in the future, rather than have to do deep excavation and extraction. I now have a single DS1287 with much of the top half excised, and with a 9V battery lead soldered in place with the same polarity as my 48T02 experiment. I think it might take 20-30 min to carefully repeat the procedure with only enough hacking as to expose the leads enough to sever them and attach a pair of wires. At some point, I want to get some pictures, but there are plenty of things further up the list (like setting up a nice shadow box and continuous backdrop for said pictures...) -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 8 22:28:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 23:28:17 -0400 Subject: NVRAM battery replacement Message-ID: <0IEN007RKTLY89EF@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: NVRAM battery replacement > From: Saquinn624 at aol.com > >Ethan- the DS1287 is the one used in SGIs (I2, Indy), isn't it? how did you >go about fixing it? [e.g. where in it is the batt. &cet.](all of my SGIs are >currently working, but the clock is ticking . . .) I've repaird DS1287s used for PCs. The cast resin case of the chip is actually over a regular plastic dip package. The battery is easy to locate with a small magnet. Once located you scrape or sand the resin in that area to expose it then pry it out. The battery used is a small diameter 3V lithium cell and has a fairly hard steel case so it's easy to sand or scrape down to it but, not through it. The two leads are there and careful soldering will attach new leads to an external 3V coin cell holder. I've done this on maybe 10 of them. We had a rash of 486/133 PCs at work that were about CA 1998 and the batteries were failing (in 2002-3). Allison From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 8 22:45:28 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:45:28 -0400 Subject: Trenton Computer Festival -- April 16-17 Message-ID: <200504090344.j393i4xm081679@dewey.classiccmp.org> It's time for the annual TCF event. This year, for the first time in a long time, TCF is back at Trenton State College. It's been so long that they actually renamed the college -- now it's called "The College of New Jersey". Alas, it's the same school. Meanwhile, for those who missed the earlier posting here, there's a new user group -- MARCH -- that's Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists. We have members from upstate New York to central Pennsylvania to Maryland, and everywhere in between. We're new, and TCF will be our first club event. About 10 of us will each bring a few ** working ** vintage computers to the exhibit, which will be located in a special room off of the main show floor. TCF's web site is http://www.tcf-nj.org and MARCH is online at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ -- Evan K. ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 23:04:26 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:04:26 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2s available in OK In-Reply-To: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> References: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: On Apr 5, 2005 11:18 PM, Erik S. Klein wrote: > "I have three 3b2 machines grathering dust. This includes many loose-leaf > binders of 3b stuff, and SCSI drives,also, many Tapes; some with Informix SE > & SQL sofeware. I am not able to ship this equipment(you got'ta pick it up), > but it's free. This has got to be the understatement of the year. This gentleman worked for AT&T for approx. 30 years, and most of that is in his garage. I have arranged to help him clear out his garage in return for all they AT&T / SysV stuff I can lay my hands on. He has, literally, CRATES of 5.25 and tape media stacked to the rafters, and possibly in his attic. I hope to get ahold of as much of it as possible, and archive what can be salvaged. A lot of it seems to be software that no one would have ever thought to save, like one-off video games and the like. To be fair, if it wasn't going to me it'd be bound for the trash. Tonight I picked up a 4425 display/keyboard terminal combo, a teletype model 5310 printer, and a 3B2/300 with an attached DTK Data-1000 (appears to be some sort of external drive unit... two hard drives and a 120 mb tape drive). The real haul was the original documentation though... I now have approx 50 or so assorted AT&T red binders for SysV, operators, sysadmins, users, Pascal, Fortran77, COBOL, Crystal Reports, Excel... will have to do a full inventory as soon as I get time. So anyway, this is my dive into the world of classic computing. Wish me luck! -dhbarr. From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 9 00:05:13 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 01:05:13 -0400 Subject: battery desoldering advice In-Reply-To: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42576289.2060404@internet1.net> Jay, If your quick about it, soldering shouldn't hurt a battery. I've kept a wet cloth handy while doing it, so I can keep the battery cool. We've actually been talking about replacing nvram batteries in another thread.... those all get soldered. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jay West wrote: > I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the > quartersized/style one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a > clip arrangement that you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, > it is in fact soldered or spot welded into the clip somehow. As a > result, I'd rather not just cut the clip arms to replace the battery as > I'd have trouble getting the new one in. > > The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but > it strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. > Suggestions? > > Jay West > > > > > From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Apr 9 00:25:22 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 00:25:22 -0500 Subject: battery desoldering advice References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42576289.2060404@internet1.net> Message-ID: <001b01c53cc4$8b0e1660$ae3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "C Fernandez" Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 12:05 AM > Jay, > > If your quick about it, soldering shouldn't hurt a battery. I've kept a > wet cloth handy while doing it, so I can keep the battery cool. We've > actually been talking about replacing nvram batteries in another > thread.... those all get soldered. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Jay West wrote: > >> I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the >> quartersized/style one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a >> clip arrangement that you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, >> it is in fact soldered or spot welded into the clip somehow. As a result, >> I'd rather not just cut the clip arms to replace the battery as I'd have >> trouble getting the new one in. >> >> The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but >> it strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. >> Suggestions? >> >> Jay West I'm no expert but I've soldered directly onto batteries for years and never had any problems. I use a soldering station and run it up to 850 degrees (F). I start by tinning the battery then using my finger rub spit on it to cool it, people afraid to be crude can use a damp sponge. After I've tinned all of the battery ends I then can quickly tack wires onto them running the soldering station at arount 750 degrees (F). I run the temperature up high to reduce time spent applying heat to the battery. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From dhbarr at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 00:34:36 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 00:34:36 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B2s available in OK In-Reply-To: References: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 11:04 PM, David H. Barr wrote: > On Apr 5, 2005 11:18 PM, Erik S. Klein wrote: > > "I have three 3b2 machines grathering dust. This includes many loose-leaf > > binders of 3b stuff, and SCSI drives,also, many Tapes; some with Informix SE > > & SQL sofeware. I am not able to ship this equipment(you got'ta pick it up), > > but it's free. > The real haul was the original documentation though... I now have > approx 50 or so assorted AT&T red binders for SysV, operators, > sysadmins, users, Pascal, Fortran77, COBOL, Crystal Reports, Excel... > will have to do a full inventory as soon as I get time. Was wrong to mention Excel... Microsoft Word, actually; I also got my count estimate wrong as it was closer to 40 than 50, due to a few duplicates. Full listing of all manuals here: http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/booklist.html -dhbarr. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 9 03:36:58 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:36:58 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: Message-ID: <002601c53cdf$4b9a3ca0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "William Donzelli" > > If you want a rack mount unit, look out for Memcor > > scopes - these seem to be a re-badged Tek 647, supplied under a military > > contract for navigational beacons, and can be got for very little, as no-one > > realises what they are (I got mine for ?30 including shipping in the UK, and > > it is a 100MHz unit dual trace unit). > > Watch out! The military scopes that look like Teks but are not are really > bad clones (Lavoies are the worst). They were made under license and just > are not up to Tek standards. When they were in service they were the curse > of the ET and Tech Rep crowd. > > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > The Memcor I have differs only in the front panels (sealed against dust and moisture), internally it is Tek, and the plug-ins have Tek ID plates on the chassis (I think the mainframe does as well). Jim. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Apr 9 04:38:01 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 11:38:01 +0200 Subject: NVRAM contents, Save some Suns, and a question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050409113801.0387e43b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:37:03 +0200 "Arno1983" wrote: > While we're at it: Erlangen University in southern Germany is about to > scrap part of its SUN inventory. Put it to the flea market at the VCFE? That is what I plan to do with some of my excess DEC, Sun and Mac machines. I wouldn't say no to an other SS10 or SS20... ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sat Apr 9 05:52:08 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 11:52:08 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Solartrond DVM manuals (and the manual for the DTU [1]) contain > schematics, or at least the oens I have do. Not this one. From what I can tell, there's an Operation Manual (P/N 71500024) and a Maintenance Manual (P/N 71500026 or 7150026 depending on which part of the manual you read), which is listed as an "Optional Accessory" in my ops manual. On the plus side, the ops manual does include the calibration instructions. I don't have a copy of the calibration overlay for the keypad, but there's a 1:1 copy of it in the manual anyway. The calibration jackplug is a bog-standard 2.5mm mono minijack that's had the tip line wired to the barrel (i.e. dead short). > That was quite common at one time. DEC PDP11 and PDP8 manuals often > included ROM dumps, flowcharts, state diagrams, and so on. These machines > wre _documented_ Seems the late 70s/early 80s was the timeframe when this was common. I've got a 1992 HP 1651B service manual and it's just a boardswapping guide. Not even any parts lists for the individual PCBs - just a list of boards and how to remove them. There's not even any info on calibrating the acquisition timebase (I suspect it's calibration-free - a crystal oscillator or something). My Tek 466 manual (circa 1986) covers everything - schematics, waveforms, calibration, parts lists for every individual part on every PCB, microcode, performance checks... "Scopes from Tek, spectrum analysers and logic analysers from HP, multimeters from Fluke" Not sure about bench PSUs, I tend to build those myself, but I've got a Farnell Instruments L30/BT here (my 5A DIY PSU went bang - cheap components never last very long). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Profanity, the language computerists know. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 8 20:13:20 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:13:20 -0400 Subject: battery desoldering advice In-Reply-To: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050408211320.0097b580@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Jay, Unsolder it. There shouldn't be any problems. Take the battery to a battery rebuilder and they're make new tabs from strap stock or they will pull the ones off the old battery cell and spot weld them to a new one. Solder the new battery back onto the board and you're back in business. I've done or had done a couple of dozen of them and never had a problem. Three things will make all the differnece in the world (1) use a decent temperature controlled solder iron (I use an inexpensive Weller) and (2) use GOOD fresh solder. Throw away ANY from Radio Shack or any that is dull looking (oxidized) (3) clean all the surfaces to be soldered till they are clean and bright. I use 2% silver solder made by Kester and it works GREAT! It also melts at about 500 degrees so you can turn your iron temperature down and that helps prevent damaging circuit boards and components. If you have trouble finding any let me know and I'll send you some. Joe At 01:29 PM 4/8/05 -0500, you wrote: >I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the quartersized/style >one. The way it is attached to the board, is via a clip arrangement that >you'd swear makes the battery removable. However, it is in fact soldered or >spot welded into the clip somehow. As a result, I'd rather not just cut the >clip arms to replace the battery as I'd have trouble getting the new one in. > >The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the battery, but it >strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering iron to a battery. >Suggestions? > >Jay West > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 9 08:28:45 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 09:28:45 -0400 Subject: New find & HP-UX p/w? was: Re: RGB-to-VGA adapter In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> References: <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050409092845.0094b7b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:00 AM 4/8/05 -0400, you wrote: >Some of you recall my plea for assistance a couple of weeks ago under the >subject "RGB-to-VGA adapter & docs was: Re: HP "Field Guide" ?" : > >Upon the date 19:55 24-03-05, Christian R. Fandt said something like: > >>I lack a correct monitor for the fixed frequency output of the RGB card. >>The card is a 98547A which has three BNC connectors; > --snip-- >>Since the purchase, I've been trying to find a way to view the RGB output >>on a typical VGA monitor that would sync to the output. > --snip-- > >Well, I think I just got lucky. I stopped by the local Salvation Army >thrift store just to check if any interesting odds 'n' ends showed up. >There was something. > >There stood an NEC 5FGP (model JC1741UMA) 17" monitor. It had five BNC >inputs (w/sync on green, it was marked), plus the mini 15 pin VGA >connector, plus the standard size D-shell 15 pin connector for MACs. I >grabbed it. > >I think I hit the jackpot. Has every input I might need to check out most >vintage hardware except CGA/mono stuff. > >But there's one problem which explains the $3 price as monitors are usually >$5-$15 in that store. The display is very dim. I can see an image okay with >the room lights off. Sounds like the monitor that I do my testing with :-/ I have to turn off all the indoor lights and close the curtains to use it. The green is very weak in it so the colors are distorted but like you, I only use it for testing. the other possiblity is that now that you've found a monitor that will do what you want, you can either pay to have it repaired or try to find a good used one (E-bay?). > >After dark. > >With no full moon (:-\ > >I found a 5FGP tech manual online in .pdf. I feel I can turn up the >red/green/blue gun drives and bring the intensity up to a somewhat useable >level. Done it before successfully with several color televisions and an >old CGA monitor. Also, the specs indicate it should sync up well to the >fixed freq video output from my HP 9000/375. Yippee! > >All is not lost. After all, this thing won't be used daily, only for >testing and messing around with the HP 9000/375. I feel good now. Just >gotta find some danged time and table space to play with all the stuff. > >Which brings me to the next important question . . . maybe Joe R., among a >few others, could provide input: > >Upon initial bootup there may be HP-UX of some version found running on it. >It may need a password. How would I get around it, if possible, and set my >own? I don't know. I've been told that you can interrupt the boot process and then start it up in single user mode and edit the password file but I've NEVER been able to get one to go into single user mode. Frankly the purpose of a password is to prevent people getting into the sytem and simply hitting Control-C or whatever and getting into it via single user sounds too simple to me. I can't believe that any decent system would allow that. I have found some systems that I was able to get into using the normal default passwords like "Root" and the like. > >It has that Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, 98286A, which I presume either runs >under HP-UX as a task or independently directly under DOS 3.x. That is if >indeed the 7958B HDD was not wiped during demil before the military >surplused the system. I get a LOT (make that a HELL OF A LOT!) of military surplus computers. They usually wipe all the PC and MAC drives but almost never wipe the drives on HPs and the like. I've not sure why but I think it's because the people doing the surplussing don't understand how to set those systems up or how to operate them. A ten year old can put a PC or MAC together. I have no idea what to expect as I'd never booted the >thing before. Any HP-UX "features" I should know about before getting too >far into running it? Nothing that I'm aware of but I'm not an expert on HP-UX. Joe I do have a doc set for HP-UX 5.5. > >Thanks in advance for your help. > >Regards, > >Chris F. > >NNNN > > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > > From carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co Sat Apr 9 07:47:39 2005 From: carlos at jimulco.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:47:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > I once helped a studnet doing a practical on an LC series circuit. I > think he was looking at the phase relationship between the applied > sinusoidal voltage and the voltage across the capacitor. And he couldn't > get any sort of sane results. IIRC he saw almost no phase change at all. > > He was using a standard (albeit cheap) modern double-trace 'scope, which > would have been quite capable of doing what he wanted. But he had one > control set wrongly. He got a trace, but it wasn't meaningful. > > OK, what was he doing wrong. Some of you will get this instantly, I think... If he was using a dual trace method of phase comparison... he probably had the dual trace control set to "alternate" instead of "chopper", so the trigger was responding to different signals, foiling up any phase comparison. Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at skipthistoemailme.ieee.org Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. From aek at spies.com Sat Apr 9 10:17:17 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 08:17:17 -0700 Subject: Cipher M990 service manual Message-ID: <53f0db81a33a2928430e7b8276123d11@spies.com> The service manual is now online at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cipher From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Sat Apr 9 10:40:12 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 17:40:12 +0200 Subject: Cipher M990 service manual References: <53f0db81a33a2928430e7b8276123d11@spies.com> Message-ID: <000601c53d1a$6b5454a0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Al Kossow" To: Subject: Re: Cipher M990 service manual > The service manual is now online at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cipher > Remarkable ! I just looked at the maintenance manual. It mentions a 6400 bpi density on the operator panel, but the "printed" documentation sais 6250. Nico From lproven at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 10:41:47 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 16:41:47 +0100 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <575131af0504090841711b1ad7@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 8, 2005 6:49 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Now in the back of my car :) > > Had to go to Fulham to help pick up a Pr1me 750 mini earlier and these > machines were only just down the road, so I grabbed them at the same > time. There was no sign of the 3/50 but we've already got one of those > and they're pretty dull hardware-wise anyway - no great loss! > > Won't get a chance to look the Sun stuff over until tomorrow though... Oh splendid! Oddly enough, Kake (Kate/Kaet), the young lady getting rid of them, was at my house this morning. Her B/F has just rented my spare room... This house now has, by any reasonable definition, an *excessive* number of computers. I must get rid of some, somehow... -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Apr 9 11:20:01 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 09:20:01 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: References: <200504090003.RAA03061@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90504090920327ddbf6@mail.gmail.com> > I tried PAM, and it seemed to me to be beading up, rather than wetting the > silicone surface. I decided not to trust it, and washed it all off, before > using the Vaseline. I'm sure there's some product made for this, and "only" > $12/bottle... Close it's only $14.60 a can. http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=66& Is Silicon RTV better than Urethane RTV for this application? The advantages of one over the other weren't clear from the website descriptions. http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=61& http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=63& From medavidson at mac.com Sat Apr 9 15:40:48 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:40:48 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B2s available in OK In-Reply-To: References: <000001c53a5f$a168c7f0$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005, at 10:34 PM, David H. Barr wrote: > On Apr 8, 2005 11:04 PM, David H. Barr wrote: >> On Apr 5, 2005 11:18 PM, Erik S. Klein >> wrote: >>> "I have three 3b2 machines grathering dust. This includes many >>> loose-leaf >>> binders of 3b stuff, and SCSI drives,also, many Tapes; some with >>> Informix SE >>> & SQL sofeware. I am not able to ship this equipment(you got'ta pick >>> it up), >>> but it's free. > >> The real haul was the original documentation though... I now have >> approx 50 or so assorted AT&T red binders for SysV, operators, >> sysadmins, users, Pascal, Fortran77, COBOL, Crystal Reports, Excel... >> will have to do a full inventory as soon as I get time. > > Was wrong to mention Excel... Microsoft Word, actually; I also got my > count estimate wrong as it was closer to 40 than 50, due to a few > duplicates. Full listing of all manuals here: > http://dhbarr.freeshell.org/booklist.html > I'll definitely be interested in what you have found, so I may come begging for copies *grin*. I've got a 3B2/600 with very little software. Mark From vrs at msn.com Sat Apr 9 15:53:59 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 13:53:59 -0700 Subject: Switch Handle Pictures References: <200504090003.RAA03061@clulw009.amd.com> <1e1fc3e90504090920327ddbf6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I tried PAM, and it seemed to me to be beading up, rather than wetting the > > silicone surface. I decided not to trust it, and washed it all off, before > > using the Vaseline. I'm sure there's some product made for this, and "only" > > $12/bottle... > > Close it's only $14.60 a can. Figured. > http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=66& > > Is Silicon RTV better than Urethane RTV for this application? The > advantages of one over the other weren't clear from the website > descriptions. > > http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=61& > http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=63& Dunno. I've never seen the Urethane RTV. Looks like it may need a release agent for polyurethane resin casts, though. (The silicone stuff only seems to stick to the silicone stuff.) Vince From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 9 16:16:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUS REX In-Reply-To: <425533AF.3010401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, William Maddox wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5181545036&rd=1 That is the coolest thing I've seen all work. What a nice piece of vintage computing ephemera! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 9 16:22:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 21:22:18 +0000 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <575131af0504090841711b1ad7@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <575131af0504090841711b1ad7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1113081738.7434.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-09 at 16:41 +0100, Liam Proven wrote: > On Apr 8, 2005 6:49 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Now in the back of my car :) > > > > Had to go to Fulham to help pick up a Pr1me 750 mini earlier and these > > machines were only just down the road, so I grabbed them at the same > > time. There was no sign of the 3/50 but we've already got one of those > > and they're pretty dull hardware-wise anyway - no great loss! > > > > Won't get a chance to look the Sun stuff over until tomorrow though... > > Oh splendid! > > Oddly enough, Kake (Kate/Kaet), the young lady getting rid of them, > was at my house this morning. Her B/F has just rented my spare room... Heh, the world gets smaller every day! Only got a chance to look at the 3/60 in the end, the 3/140 sat in the corridor as I ran out of time - 3/60 looks to be nice and healthy though. (Far as I know the 3/140's supposed to be in working order too though) > This house now has, by any reasonable definition, an *excessive* > number of computers. I must get rid of some, somehow... Heh :) I saw an Ultra 5 in the pile of stuff that the guy was packing up; didn't get a chance to see what else the chap had though. He sounded keen to come up to Bletchley sometime and see everything though :) cheers Jules From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Apr 9 17:54:05 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 23:54:05 +0100 Subject: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again References: <20050401002020.H740@localhost> <2925b6544d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <015e01c53d57$1a4c8a40$0200a8c0@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 10:37 AM Subject: Re: D.G. Nova update -- crapacitors strike again > Probably worth keeping Murphy's Laws in mind - "if something can go wrong, it > will" and "if a component fails, it will take the most expensive or hardest > to replace part with it". > > Later. > -- > Phil. I seem to recall the following specific examples of Murphy's (sod's ) law :- 1. The more innocuous a design change appears , the further it's influence will extend. 2. In any given computation , the figure that is most obviously correct will be the source of error. 3. Any wire cut to length will be too short. 4. A device selected at random from a group having 99% reliability will belong to the 1% group. 5. The probability of a dimension being omitted from a plan or drawing is directly proportional to it's importance. 6. Interchangeable parts won't. 7. A circuit protected by a fast acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first. 8. A failure will not appear until a unit has passed final inspection. 9. After the last of 16 mounting screws has been removed from an access cover , it will be found the wrong access cover has been removed. 10. After an access cover has been secured by 16 screws , it will be found that the gasket has been left off. and my favourite : 11. Suggestions made by the value analysis group will increase costs and reduce functionality. Geoff. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Apr 9 18:33:12 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:33:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 9, 5 00:49:32 am Message-ID: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> Ah, but the 466 manual has pull-out schematics and parts lists for every >> single major module (basically every single PCB). I try and avoid recent >> hardware due to the lack of schematics and service data, although the >> same >> applies (to a lesser degree) to older equipment. I'm after a maintenance >> manual for a Solartron 7150 - I've got the operator's manual but I want >> the Before I say anything else, this isn't a personal attack on anyone, just a semantics thing. I'm not wishing to sound bitter or anything, but when I asked an identical question about scopes last year I didn't get the same level of replies that this question is getting so I floundered for ages. The same people are around now that were around then so was it the way I phrased the question or typed the subject line? Just thoughts... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Apr 9 18:50:41 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:50:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 9, 5 00:49:32 am <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Witchy wrote: > > I'm not wishing to sound bitter or anything, but when I asked an identical > question about scopes last year I didn't get the same level of replies > that this question is getting so I floundered for ages. The same people > are around now that were around then so was it the way I phrased the > question or typed the subject line? Nope. It's that damned incomprehensible *accent* of yours.... Cheers John ducks, runs.... From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 9 18:54:06 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504100002.UAA16277@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Subquestion Number one for me would be the reasoning why those >> probes are so important. How bad are readings taken with just >> direct wired connections? > Very! Using a normal piece of cable will load the signal under test > ,mostly due to the capacitance of the cable. Of course, this depends on "the cable". Back when I used a 'scope (basically, back when I had a mostly-working one handy), I normally connected it not with a "cable" but with two pieces of loose wire, one to (signal) ground and one to the signal being examined. The capacitance of that sort of "cable" is probably on the order of the capacitance you introduce just by standing near it - the scope itself usually swamps it. (I'm sure such a thing introduces other kinds of error potential, especially when measuring high-impedance and/or high-speed signals....) Now, this was mostly audio-range, or relatively slow digital stuff, and almost always relatively low-impedance stuff. For that kind of signal, you can get away with almost anything. :-) But I also used that setup to look at the signal from an oscillator built by connecting an odd number of inverters in a loop, and unless you use a lot of them, that's a fairly high-frequency signal, even if somkewhat low-impedance.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 9 19:09:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 00:09:37 +0000 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: from "Philip Pemberton" at Apr 9, 5 00:49:32 am <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1113091777.7434.59.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 00:33 +0100, Witchy wrote: > >> Ah, but the 466 manual has pull-out schematics and parts lists for every > >> single major module (basically every single PCB). I try and avoid recent > >> hardware due to the lack of schematics and service data, although the > >> same > >> applies (to a lesser degree) to older equipment. I'm after a maintenance > >> manual for a Solartron 7150 - I've got the operator's manual but I want > >> the > > Before I say anything else, this isn't a personal attack on anyone, just a > semantics thing. > > I'm not wishing to sound bitter or anything, but when I asked an identical > question about scopes last year I didn't get the same level of replies > that this question is getting so I floundered for ages. The same people > are around now that were around then so was it the way I phrased the > question or typed the subject line? Nature of the beast I think. Almost seems like some threads need a couple of people to reply and then they can just snowball. I've noticed it happen to other people, and it's happened for things I've posted about in the past too - sometimes I've had a flurry of useful replies, and other times not a bite. Doesn't seem to be related to how common the machine is or how easy a reply is likely to be for the more experienced or whatever. Almost as though it's a safety in numbers thing... maybe a lot of people think they don't have enough to contribute or that others can explain better or that they'll look (wrongly) like an idiot and so they hold back from posting. Then once a couple of people have replied it's enough to make them feel comfortable with doing so too. Right place at the right time, like so many things... cheers J. From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Sat Apr 9 19:20:20 2005 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:20:20 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <1113091777.7434.59.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1113091777.7434.59.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.0.20050409201730.01ca7af0@pop.cogeco.ca> At 08:09 PM 4/9/2005, you wrote: While you Tecktronics types are still about, does anyone know anything about a Teck 604 Monitor? I would like to find out what this thing is supposed to do so I can set about trying to get it to do it again. Thanks Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Video Production 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten at www.chasfoxvideo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 9 19:49:32 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:49:32 -0500 Subject: More Classic Press Message-ID: <00c801c53d67$2a856c00$1e406b43@66067007> The May 2005 issue of mobile Technology To Go had a small write-up with pic's on the Cristie's Cyber auction and a section called "retro tech" talking about the Kaypro 2000. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 9 20:33:11 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:33:11 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050409203311.7e3c8fe7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 11:52:08 +0100 Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Solartrond DVM manuals (and the manual for the DTU [1]) contain > > schematics, or at least the oens I have do. > > Not this one. From what I can tell, there's an Operation Manual (P/N > 71500024) and a Maintenance Manual (P/N 71500026 or 7150026 depending > on which part of the manual you read), which is listed as an "Optional > Accessory" in my ops manual. > On the plus side, the ops manual does include the calibration > instructions. I don't have a copy of the calibration overlay for the > keypad, but there's a 1:1 copy of it in the manual anyway. The > calibration jackplug is a bog-standard 2.5mm mono minijack that's had > the tip line wired to the barrel(i.e. dead short). > > > That was quite common at one time. DEC PDP11 and PDP8 manuals often > > included ROM dumps, flowcharts, state diagrams, and so on. These > > machines wre _documented_ > > Seems the late 70s/early 80s was the timeframe when this was common. > I've got a 1992 HP 1651B service manual and it's just a boardswapping > guide. Not even any parts lists for the individual PCBs - just a list > of boards and how to remove them. There's not even any info on > calibrating the acquisition timebase (I suspect it's calibration-free > - a crystal oscillator or something). > My Tek 466 manual (circa 1986) covers everything - schematics, > waveforms, calibration, parts lists for every individual part on every > PCB, microcode, performance checks... > > "Scopes from Tek, spectrum analysers and logic analysers from HP, > multimeters from Fluke" > > Not sure about bench PSUs, I tend to build those myself, but I've got > a Farnell Instruments L30/BT here (my 5A DIY PSU went bang - cheap > components never last very long). > Bench power supplies from Kepco or Harrison Laboratories (later purchased by HP, so if you've seen a Harrision supply, you know what the 'good' HP supplies look like) From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 9 20:36:02 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:36:02 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.0.20050409201730.01ca7af0@pop.cogeco.ca> References: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1113091777.7434.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.0.20050409201730.01ca7af0@pop.cogeco.ca> Message-ID: <20050409203602.5f2a27bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 09 Apr 2005 20:20:20 -0400 "Charles E. Fox" wrote: > At 08:09 PM 4/9/2005, you wrote: > > While you Tecktronics types are still about, does anyone know > > anything about a Teck 604 Monitor? I would like to find out what this > thing is supposed to do so I can set about trying to get it to do it > again. Thanks > > Charlie Fox > Charles E. Fox Video Production > 793 Argyle Rd. > Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8 > 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca > Check out The Camcorder Kindergarten > at www.chasfoxvideo.com > > That should be an XYZ monitor. It will have BNC jacks on the back for X, Y, and Z inputs. X and Y are the coordinates, Z is the brightness of the dot. These Tek monitors were commonly used as displays in a lot of medical equipment, and misc. It would make a very nice vector display unit if you hook an A/D converter to all three axes. > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 9 20:25:08 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:25:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old camera-accessory doc found Message-ID: <200504100135.VAA16835@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I happened across a little four-page user's guide for the "POLAROID PRINT COPIER Model 240". Based on the style of the thing, I feel quite sure it's on-topic. :) I have no particular reason to keep it; I know some people here are interested in old user's guides and the like, so I thought I'd see if anyone's interested in this one, even though it's not directly computer-related. It's quite short. I've scanned it (300dpi 24bpp); the scans are, for the moment, available on ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca in /mouse/misc/polaroid-copier-user-guide under the names page1.ppm through page8.ppm. For those who just want a quick look that doesn't need full information preserval, I've also scaled the scans down and converted them to jpegs, in page1.jpg through page8.jpg. For people who really want the rawest available scanner output, see the pages-?-?.ppm files. The colours look..weird; this appears to be an artifact of the scanner - something about exactly how the slight crinkles in the paper surface change the surface's slope, is my guess. The actual document is printed in black and red on white paper, with halftone grayscales printed in black. If anyone's interested in getting the original paper version, just let me know. As I say, I have no use for it myself. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 9 20:39:01 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 20:39:01 -0500 Subject: battery desoldering advice In-Reply-To: <001b01c53cc4$8b0e1660$ae3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42576289.2060404@internet1.net> <001b01c53cc4$8b0e1660$ae3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050409203901.5dc08bef.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 00:25:22 -0500 "Randy McLaughlin" wrote: > From: "C Fernandez" > Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 12:05 AM > > Jay, > > > > If your quick about it, soldering shouldn't hurt a battery. I've > > kept a wet cloth handy while doing it, so I can keep the battery > > cool. We've actually been talking about replacing nvram batteries > > in another thread.... those all get soldered. > > > > Chad Fernandez > > Michigan, USA > > > > Jay West wrote: > > > >> I need to replace the battery in an item I have. It's the > >> quartersized/style one. The way it is attached to the board, is via > >a > clip arrangement that you'd swear makes the battery removable. > >However, > it is in fact soldered or spot welded into the clip > >somehow. As a result, > I'd rather not just cut the clip arms to > >replace the battery as I'd have > trouble getting the new one in. > >> > >> The only possibility I see is unsoldering the clip from the > >battery, but > it strikes me as a rather bad idea to put a soldering > >iron to a battery. > Suggestions? > >> > >> Jay West > > I'm no expert but I've soldered directly onto batteries for years and > never had any problems. > > I use a soldering station and run it up to 850 degrees (F). > > I start by tinning the battery then using my finger rub spit on it to > cool it, people afraid to be crude can use a damp sponge. > > After I've tinned all of the battery ends I then can quickly tack > wires onto them running the soldering station at arount 750 degrees > (F). > > I run the temperature up high to reduce time spent applying heat to > the battery. > > I used to have some success using special silver solder. It wets much better to the batteries. It is intended for non-electric use, though, so the flux is very aggressive and must be cleaned completely off. But soldering to sealed batteries, especially lithium batteries, isn't that good an idea. It's better to locate a connector for them. There are connectors available for most coin-type batteries. > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 9 21:08:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 19:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <20050409203602.5f2a27bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1113091777.7434.59.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.0.20050409201730.01ca7af0@pop.cogeco.ca> <20050409203602.5f2a27bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <33829.64.169.63.74.1113098910.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Scott wrote: > It would make a very nice vector display unit if you hook an A/D > converter to all three axes. Sorry to be so pedantic, but no, that won't help at all. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 9 21:19:07 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 22:19:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The functional difference is that when I print complex Postscript >> documents to the PCL-only printer, it is much *FASTER*. The >> computer has a lot more computons available for rendering than the >> Postscript printer does. > I have a similar setup at home, but I still send PS to my 4ML > because, in side-by-side comparisons, the computer-rendered output is > slightly worse than the 4ML's output. The 4ML's curved lines seem > anti-aliased or something; they're smoother. Halftoning looks a bit > better too. But that's just my opinion. Both printers are 300 DPI > (the 4ML has "resolution-enhancing technology", not sure if that is > marketing-speak or actual features though; the PCL printer does not). Probably actual features, if you can see the difference. I suspect that the smoother curves and better halftones are exactly what the "resolution-enhancing technology" does. (I'm not sure in what sense it's still 300dpi; perhaps if I knew the guts of the thing I'd be able to say something more definitive.) > Back in 1988, when sending a semi-complex page took tens of minutes > to spool, PS was magic for me -- computer control was returned in > less than half a minute and I could keep working while this complex > page was formed on the printer. I still remember the time, soon after we (at the university lab I worked for at the time) got our first LaserWriter, when I wrote PS code to print a plot where a point (X,Y) was white or black according as X and Y were relatively prime or not. (Experimenting with an unusual data procedure to the image operator.) I printed a few sheets at low and medium resolutions (eg, 100 pixels each way on an 8" square), then cranked it up to full 2400x2400 dots (300dpi * 8"). Sending the file took moments (9600 baud serial line) - but the printer just sat there. I had to leave it overnight. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Apr 9 21:38:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 21:38:53 -0500 Subject: battery desoldering advice References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><42576289.2060404@internet1.net><001b01c53cc4$8b0e1660$ae3cd7d1@randylaptop> <20050409203901.5dc08bef.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001001c53d76$735f2e20$e83ed7d1@randylaptop> From: "Scott Stevens" Sent: Saturday, April 09, 2005 8:39 PM > On Sat, 9 Apr 2005 00:25:22 -0500 > "Randy McLaughlin" wrote: >> I'm no expert but I've soldered directly onto batteries for years and >> never had any problems. >> >> I use a soldering station and run it up to 850 degrees (F). >> >> I start by tinning the battery then using my finger rub spit on it to >> cool it, people afraid to be crude can use a damp sponge. >> >> After I've tinned all of the battery ends I then can quickly tack >> wires onto them running the soldering station at arount 750 degrees >> (F). >> >> I run the temperature up high to reduce time spent applying heat to >> the battery. > > I used to have some success using special silver solder. It wets much > better to the batteries. It is intended for non-electric use, though, > so the flux is very aggressive and must be cleaned completely off. > > But soldering to sealed batteries, especially lithium batteries, isn't > that good an idea. It's better to locate a connector for them. There > are connectors available for most coin-type batteries. > >> Randy >> www.s100-manuals.com I've never soldered to a lithium battery just NiCads, alkaline, etc. For coin cells I agree sockets are better. Randy From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 02:48:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 03:48:52 -0400 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: <1113081738.7434.26.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <575131af0504090841711b1ad7@mail.gmail.com> <1113081738.7434.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Apr 9, 2005 5:22 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > ...3/60 looks to be nice and healthy Cool. I have a 3/60 in the basement, with color frame buffer. ISTR I checked it out via serial console and that was fine. It's been sitting for a couple of years, waiting for me to get around to finishing a Sun3/Sun4 keyboard/mouse adapter. I _have_ an optical mouse with the modular connector and the gold studs, but no Sun3 keyboard. The protocols are the same, so I just have to finish a DIN8-DA15 adapter and use slightly more modern external parts. Once that's done, I have to track down a SunOS kit. I _think_ I have a 4.0.3 kit or something similar on QIC tape. If 4.1.3_U1 still works on a 3/60, I can probably borrow that locally on CD-ROM. This is entirely for the exercise... I have more modern and slightly off-topic machines (sun4m) for production server use. -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 10 04:52:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:52:02 +0000 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <575131af0504090841711b1ad7@mail.gmail.com> <1113081738.7434.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1113126723.7418.71.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-10 at 03:48 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 9, 2005 5:22 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > ...3/60 looks to be nice and healthy > > Cool. I have a 3/60 in the basement, with color frame buffer. ISTR I > checked it out via serial console and that was fine. This one has the colour framebuffer, too. Works just fine - I tried it on the Sun 4/330 though but get a blank screen there unfortunately (I was hoping that whilst the 4/330 has bust serial hardware it might still drive a framebuffer ok and allow us to use that as console). Not checked the 4/330 for jumpers to force it to use the framebuffer yet (if it has any), nor plugged a keyboard in (maybe it needs to detect a keyboard before it'll swap over to using any framebuffer for output). Possible that the system ROMs don't contain any framebuffer code of course (they're not labelled as Sun parts) or that this 3/60's framebuffer is simply incompatible with the 4/330 anyway... > It's been > sitting for a couple of years, waiting for me to get around to > finishing a Sun3/Sun4 keyboard/mouse adapter. It's the little things that always take the time! > that's done, I have to track down a SunOS kit. I _think_ I have a > 4.0.3 kit or something similar on QIC tape. If 4.1.3_U1 still works > on a 3/60, I can probably borrow that locally on CD-ROM. I think our 3/60 is running 4.1.1. It came with a bunch of tapes, a couple of which are marked as being 4.1.1 OS install - but they're copies and one is marked as being possibly bad. I'll try backing them up to my desktop sometime though; with a known-good and cleaned tape drive maybe they'll read OK. cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 10 06:17:07 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:17:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: NVRAM battery replacement In-Reply-To: Saquinn624@aol.com "NVRAM battery replacement" (Apr 8, 22:57) References: <1c0.2635ba18.2f889eb7@aol.com> Message-ID: <10504101217.ZM11413@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 8 2005, 22:57, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > I pulled the coin-cell holder off of an old PC clone PC board and then > epoxied it to the top of the NVRAM- works well and will make future changes easy. > > Ethan- the DS1287 is the one used in SGIs (I2, Indy), isn't it? No, Indys have a Dallas DS1386-8K-150, but I imagine it can be dealt with in a similar way, though I think you can still get them from Maxim. SGI serial numbers are their MAC addresses, so you don't even need to make them up, just read them off the machine's label; also you can program the MAC address into a *blank* Dallas chip from the boot ROM prompt (at least on an Indy), so you don't need any fancy process. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Apr 10 07:45:36 2005 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (quapla at xs4all.nl) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:45:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: TM11 BP available Message-ID: <15123.62.177.191.201.1113137136.squirrel@62.177.191.201> Anybody interested in a TM11 backplane? Comes with the cable board (M983). Free for the cost of shipping (from Holland) Ed From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 10 09:49:23 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:49:23 -0500 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> At 09:19 PM 4/9/2005, der Mouse wrote: >> Back in 1988, when sending a semi-complex page took tens of minutes >> to spool, PS was magic for me -- computer control was returned in >> less than half a minute and I could keep working while this complex >> page was formed on the printer. > >I still remember the time, soon after we (at the university lab I >worked for at the time) got our first LaserWriter, when I wrote PS code Well, back in that day, the Laserwriter had a CPU quite comparable to what was in the personal computer. Same for the Commodore 64 and its 1541 disk drive. :-) - John From fmc at reanimators.org Sun Apr 10 11:00:57 2005 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:00:57 -0700 Subject: Free Sun3 workstations In-Reply-To: (Ethan Dicks's message of "Sun, 10 Apr 2005 03:48:52 -0400") References: <575131af050404074659d69909@mail.gmail.com> <1112627174.18057.37.camel@weka.localdomain> <26c11a64050404114222c7c679@mail.gmail.com> <1112982567.5953.24.camel@weka.localdomain> <575131af0504090841711b1ad7@mail.gmail.com> <1113081738.7434.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504101600.j3AG0vbB083704@lots.reanimators.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > [...] If 4.1.3_U1 still works on a 3/60, I can probably borrow that > locally on CD-ROM. 4.1.1_U1 is the last SunOS for 680[23]0 Suns. I'm thinking it did make it onto an early Solaris CD-ROM (maybe 1.0), but have not actually seen that CD-ROM. -Frank McConnell From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Apr 10 12:02:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:02:27 -0500 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> Message-ID: <20050410120227.10d2ede8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 09:49:23 -0500 John Foust wrote: > At 09:19 PM 4/9/2005, der Mouse wrote: > >> Back in 1988, when sending a semi-complex page took tens of minutes > >> to spool, PS was magic for me -- computer control was returned in > >> less than half a minute and I could keep working while this complex > >> page was formed on the printer. > > > >I still remember the time, soon after we (at the university lab I > >worked for at the time) got our first LaserWriter, when I wrote PS > >code > > Well, back in that day, the Laserwriter had a CPU quite comparable to > what was in the personal computer. Same for the Commodore 64 and its > 1541 disk drive. :-) > The LaserWriter had one of those massive 64 pin DIP package 68000 chips on it. Often the LaserWriter had a more powerful CPU than the Macintosh connected to it. -Scott From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 10 12:16:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:16:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> from "John Foust" at Apr 10, 5 09:49:23 am Message-ID: > Well, back in that day, the Laserwriter had a CPU quite comparable to > what was in the personal computer. Same for the Commodore 64 and its > 1541 disk drive. :-) Wasn't there a time when the Laserwriter was the most powerful computer Apple sold? It used a 12MHz 68000, the Macs of the time used a 8MHz 68000 -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 10 12:44:27 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 11:44:27 -0600 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425965FB.5060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >Wasn't there a time when the Laserwriter was the most powerful computer >Apple sold? It used a 12MHz 68000, the Macs of the time used a 8MHz 68000 Hey what about memory ... Did not the original Mac come with 128KB of memory? Ben alias woodelf From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Thu Apr 7 15:12:55 2005 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:12:55 +0200 Subject: Digital Equipment stuff available Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AA3B@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> test > -----Original Message----- > From: Will Roberts [mailto:oldbear at arctos.com] > Sent: Sunday, April 04, 2004 1:51 AM > To: Classic Computer tech list > Subject: Digital Equipment stuff available > > > > It's finally come to that time when I have to reduce the amount > of stuff I have been hoarding. (My wife wants to move to a smaller > house.) > > I have a number of items of DEC hardware and software from around > 1980. I haven't done a complete inventory, but among the items > are: > > 2 Rainbow 100 personal computers both with hard disk > (5mB? 10mB?), extended memory and accessory "I-drive" > for reading IBM pc-format double sided diskettes. > > 1 Decmate II word-processor using PDP-8 architecture > in a form factor similar to the Rainbow. > > 1 Decmate word-processor. This is a the VT-100 type > terminal containing a PDP-8 processor, mounted on > a pedestal base which contains dual 8-inch floppy > drives and power supply. (The VT-100 type keyboard > has some missing key caps.) > > 3 VR-201 monitors (At least one is amber, the others > are green and possibly white phosphor CRTs.) > > 2 VR-241 RGB color monitors incl. BNC cables. > > 1 VT-240 serial terminal > > 3 LK-201 keyboards. Two of these have the "gold key" > word processing key caps. > > 1 Floor stand for Rainbow. Holds system unit in a > vertical position. Designed by DEC for proper > airflow. > > 1 LQP-02 wide letter-quality impact printer. > > 1 Diablo 620 daisy-wheel impact printer with selectable > serial or parallel interface. > > 2 LA-50 dot matrix printers. > > 2 DECpc 420sx personal computers. > > Interconnecting cables for the monitors and printers, etc. > > Many various "DEC certified" software packages. > > 3rd party software for things like graphic design, > calendaring, telecom, etc. > > DEC handbooks, support documents, catalogs of DEC and > 3rd party software, users group newsletters, early > FIDO bbs software and manuals, transcripts of online > discussions about DEC pc hardware, and more. > > Several boxes of 8-inch diskettes for use in the > RX01 drives of the Decmate I. Color plastic storage > boxes for these diskettes. Also, DEC-formatted > 5.25-inch diskettes for Rainbow and DECmate II. > > Printer ribbons, extra daisy-wheels in many fonts, > some internal components such as OEM disk mounting > hardware and cables for the Rainbows, etc. > > > I am located in an inner suburb of Boston and would like to send all > this stuff to be adopted by a good home. > > If interested, please email me at oldbear at arctos.com > > Regards, > Will > > > From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Apr 7 19:19:06 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:19:06 -0400 Subject: [OT]Tasted freecycling group. Wanted:offered ratio too high In-Reply-To: <425565F0.4050504@internet1.net> References: <4254C15F.5040207@internet1.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050407092952.02b723e0@mail.n.ml.org> <425565F0.4050504@internet1.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050407201149.02c85f00@mail.n.ml.org> Those evil bastards! Runoff water damaging my Silicon Graphics, Palm, Seagate, Cisco, AMD, Adaptec, etc. shirts and laundry would surely agitate the crap out of me too. Must have been designed with a M$ product (much like older M$ Basic where if a series of commands are given using a "vending machine" concept, the end result will always be wrong- unless you negate every command after the first in the written program, lol. ...As told to me by a friend who was a programmer I worked with at IBM), hehehe. -John Boffemmyer IV PS: use for drainage or solidifying bed in soft soil in low-laying areas are usually what broken concrete is used for. It is semi-permeable, odd-shaped and multi-sized, allowing a lot of pieces to fit nicely together when laid down as a foundation for smaller stone or blacktop above, firming up the area to allow heavier loads with less shifting and more saturation drainage. Sorry, used to do engineering too and we started using that idea in the mid-90's. At 12:55 PM 4/7/2005, you wrote: >John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > >>Chad, local guy offered his broken concrete chunks last week, had 20+ >>people looking to take it for everything from rock beds for drainage >>ditches to stone walls to stone chunks in an outdoor garden someone was >>designing. You can definitely get rid of them. =) > >Hmm, I didn't think about drainage ditches. My thoughts were retaining >walls or a cheap, but creative patio/walkway. > >>:Attempt to make on-topic: >>Were these chunks from a floor supporting old big-iron in a building or >>from a computer company's locale that was demolished? > >Um, no..... small patio that was sloped in such a way as to funnel water >into my lab's personnel uniform cleansing facility (laundry room). > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 11:58:46 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 17:58:46 +0100 Subject: Tapes (9track & DC600A) new - anyone interested? UK Message-ID: Hi list, A contact has the following up for grabs: Euromagnetics "Calculus Mk III" 9track tapes, 6250BPI, 7 off Unknown brand (but ex-UK MOD so will be *extremely* high quality) DC600A tapes, 60MB, 10 off All are brand new and still sealed in their packaging. If you would like to buy any, email an offer (he doesn't know what they're worth, neither do I ;) to chrissi(at)ntlworld(dot)com. The tapes are located in Cleethorpes, UK, but he will ship anywhere. Regards, Ed. From png at ideaphile.com Fri Apr 8 12:55:19 2005 From: png at ideaphile.com (Peter N. Glaskowsky) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 10:55:19 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <200504081708.j38H6ijs071670@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Just a quick comment on this one-- You want an scope with several times as much "bandwidth" as the frequency of the fastest digital signal you will examine-- 4X minimum. The analog frequency content of a digital signal is much faster than its clock rate. Without a substantial margin, the signal will be badly distorted. Analog scopes are cheap and widely available, but they have limited value for troubleshooting digital electronics. They can only show you repetitive signals, or the envelope of a randomly changing signal. They can't show you something that happens only once, or very rarely, but that's the nature of most digital problems. Expensive analog "storage" scopes can hold a signal on the screen, but only if you can figure out how to capture it in the first place. You might as well spend the money on a digital scope. If you're getting a digital scope, you need a "sampling rate" that is also much faster than the frequency of your fastest signal. The Nyquist theory says you need 2X the sampling rate to reconstruct a signal, but that theory applies ONLY to reconstructing a known waveform given a large number of samples. Again, in practice, you want a sampling rate at least 4X your digital clock rate, and preferably more like 10X. This ratio determines how accurately you can measure the position of your signal edges. You will find old digital scopes that quote two sampling rates. The higher figure will be a "repetitive sampling rate" specification that applies ONLY to reconstructing periodic signals such as radio carrier waves or computer clock signals. For non-periodic sources such as logic signals, only the lower "raw" or "real-time" or "one-shot" or "instantaneous" sampling rate matters. Today, even for under $1,000, you can get a digital scope with a true sampling rate much faster than you'll probably ever need. These are usually priced according to analog bandwidth. For troubleshooting old computers, even 100MHz is probably more than sufficient. A good probe reduces the load on the signal being observed, as David Holland said. An o-scope input has a 50-ohm impedance; that kind of load will stop many circuits from working. So-called "active" probes present an almost undetectable load, but you will rarely need anything that sophisticated. If you're going to use a scope for ANYTHING, get this book: Troubleshooting Analog Circuits, Bob Pease, ISBN 0750694998 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0750694998/ Or buy an autographed copy from the author by emailing rap at galaxy.nsc.com. Though written about analog circuits, all of these electrical principles and troubleshooting techniques apply to digital circuits. Let's face it, the circuits themselves are analog anyway. . png From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Apr 8 13:43:55 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 19:43:55 +0100 Subject: New owner of a Sun 3/80 In-Reply-To: References: <61052.207.71.246.177.1112937353.squirrel@webmail1.pair.com> Message-ID: <4256D0EB.80105@gifford.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > There were a lot of 3/50s and 3/60s shipped. I think the 3/80 was a > last stab for customers with a large investment in 68K > hardware/software, but with an upgrade path to the new SPARC line. As > a result, I don't think many 3/80s were shipped compared to what came > before and what came after. The entire technical documentation department at INMOS, in the early 1990s, ran on Sun 3/80s. I have one in the collection here, plus a junker (from another source) for spares. They are indeed Sun 3 motherboards (68030) in a SparcStation-1 case. SparcStation-1 drive sleds will fit, if you can get them. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 20:20:42 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 02:20:42 +0100 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005 1:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The 4L and 4ML are stripped-down single-user-oriented printers, not > > big modular monsters like the IIISi, 4MX, etc. The internal boards > > for the 4L and 4ML are entirely different (but the engine is the > > same). There is no PostScript SIMM in a 4ML; everything is soldered > > to the board, plus the 4L has parallel only, and the 4ML has parallel > > plus an 8-pin-DIN AppleTalk/LocalTalk connector. > Which sub-model of 4 DOES take the Postscript SIMM? The 4-with-nothing-appended, 4+, 4M and 4M+ do. I have one of the latter. They're physically the same, the Ms just have a network card installed. To anyone considering buying one of this range: you may wish to avoid the original non-Plus Laserjet 4 if you pay for your own electricity, as (TTOBMK) it lacks powersave mode, so will be using full idle power (~80W) whenever it's on. The Plus models go into powersave mode (11W) once they've been idle for a short while (display shows 00 POWERSAVE). Ed. From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Fri Apr 8 20:23:20 2005 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 02:23:20 +0100 Subject: Parting out Laserjet 3s (UK) - anyone need parts? Message-ID: Hi cctech'ers, As the subject says, I've got 2 Laserjet 3s with no toner cartridges and "unknown spec" fusers that I'm parting out. They are otherwise complete, so if you need any parts for one, mail me off-list within 14 days else what remains of them will have gone to the dump. No charge, but you pay shipping or collect. They're located in Yorkshire, UK. Ed. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 7 12:43:09 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:43:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <1112803654.2239.88.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200504060112.49864.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1112803654.2239.88.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <30968.195.212.29.91.1112895789.squirrel@195.212.29.91> > On Wed, 2005-04-06 at 01:12 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Another example of where the Christie's auction helped to make people >> think that things are worth *way* more than they really are. > > A while ago I was discussing EBay-like prices with people (for old > computer stuff). Their argument was that EBay prices reflect the true > state of the market and the true worth of classic computer items. > I was discussing this on another mailing list, this time for Citroen XMs (you don't get them in the US, so a bit of background - they are a big, weird French luxury car that cost a fortune when new). You'd be amazed how many people try to sell their "Immaculate R at RE Meteor grey 2.0Si Auto" with a starting bid of ?500 - for possibly the most common and least desirable model. Then they get all snotty when you point out that better, newer and more sellable ones are going for less than ?100. "Oh well if I can't sell it for ?500 then I'm just going to scrap it" - Well, that's a shame, you could have got a ton for it, but now you're going to have to pay to have it taken away. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 7 12:44:58 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 18:44:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC identification wanted In-Reply-To: <16981.28096.545000.542893@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <6.1.0.6.0.20050407192849.029282c0@pop.xs4all.nl> <16981.28096.545000.542893@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <35203.195.212.29.91.1112895898.squirrel@195.212.29.91> >>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan writes: > > Stefan> Hi, I've got a "what is this" question for you guys again :-) > Stefan> I think this is easy for someone who knows it : > Stefan> http://www.mansier.net/decthingie.jpg > > It's a unit number select plug. Can't tell what for -- not an RA disk > because it's just one digit, and not an RP05/06 because those are 5x > bigger. RL01/02, RK06/07 -- and were there tape drives that used > these? > > There are three fingers on the back that are the binary form of the > unit number. > > paul It's a unit select plug, looks like the ones I use in my RL02s. Gordon. From edward at groenenberg.net Thu Apr 7 13:49:43 2005 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Edward) Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 20:49:43 +0200 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUSREX References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <425580C7.7669C44@groenenberg.net> James Fogg wrote: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&it > em=5181545036&rd=1 > > Odd - even the board artwork reads Bus Grantosaurus Rex. It looks like > someone made some custom PC Bus Grant boards and needed a laugh. Making > such a board at home would be a simple project. Actually not. I had 3 of them (did give 2 away to friends). They are original DEC issued ones. It may have been a marketing joke of some sort. Ed -- edward at groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '05 GSX-R1000 From jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com Thu Apr 7 14:39:35 2005 From: jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2005 12:39:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New owner of a Sun 3/80 In-Reply-To: <200504071708.j37H8IIR055936@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504071708.j37H8IIR055936@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <42222.207.71.246.177.1112902775.squirrel@webmail5.pair.com> Hi, I just picked up a Sun 3/80 chassis from the local university surplus. It looked lonely sitting there. It's dusty inside but appears to work (checked console via serial port). Has a floppy, 8MB memory, no hard drive, and a dead NVRAM. I'll consult the various faq's on the web about the NVRAM, and maybe drill some mounting holes for a hard drive (didn't come with a hd carrier, and I can't find any). I'll run it headless with netbsd, since I don't have room for another monitor. I don't know much about the Sun 3 series though - most of what I see from a google search is about the 3/50 and 3/60's. Is the 3/80 an ignored bastard child from sun? A 68030 in a pizzabox, not a classic Sun 3, but not a Sparc either? Are the hd carriers hard to come by? Thanks, Jeff From paul-pentecost7 at juno.com Fri Apr 8 18:34:29 2005 From: paul-pentecost7 at juno.com (Paul E Pentecost) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:34:29 -0400 Subject: GW-Basic Message-ID: <20050408.193430.-273829.0.paul-pentecost7@juno.com> I am looking for the origional GW-Basic Compiler what would you like in trade I do have a great deal in my research Archives here. Dr. Pentecost paul-pentecost7 at juno.com From steerex at mindspring.com Sat Apr 9 08:14:42 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2005 09:14:42 -0400 Subject: New find & HP-UX p/w? was: Re: RGB-to-VGA adapter References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <4257D542.857715E6@mindspring.com> > > One method that has been reported to work once out of five times or so > is to let hpux boot all the way to the login prompt, power-cycle the > computer and drives, and when it reboots and starts fsck-ing the > disks (there should be a /etc/bcheckrc: " message on the console) > repeatedly type ctrl-C, ctrl-\ or shift-(DEL/ESC) (DEL/ESC is a key on the > left side of HP-HIL keyboards). I don't remember the exact key combination > that was used, but it did work once for me about ten years ago with hpux 9.0 > and a model 380; it interrupts and gives you a single user prompt. > Just finish fsck-ing stuff, mount -a and edit the /etc/passwd file. If you can't ctrl-c and get to a prompt, try disconnecting the drive cable during fsck. It should time-out leaving you in single user mode. When you get a prompt, reconnect the cable and mount the drive. It's also possible to mount the drive in another working system and edit the /etc/passwd file. See yas, SteveRob From brian.russell at iclway.co.uk Fri Apr 8 16:47:18 2005 From: brian.russell at iclway.co.uk (brian.russell) Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 22:47:18 +0100 Subject: Definition of a Computer References: <200504070755.j377rfFY049947@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000501c53d0e$11945f20$a6252850@oemcomputer> > Megan wrote: > > Years ago, someone (I don't remember who) gave the definition of a > > computer as a "device which inputs some stuff, does some stuff to > > it, and outputs some other stuff". > > Eric Smith wrote: > Which is presumably not actually very useful as a definition of a computer, > since a cow would qualify. I was always under the belief that a 'computer' was originally a man (yes, almost always a man) who performed computations using slide-rule, log tables, pencil and paper. When I look up my Chambers Dictionary this evening, I get the definitions: "Compute: to calculate, especially with a computer; to estimate. Computer: a calculator; a person who computes; a machine or apparatus, mechanical, electric or electronic, for carrying out (especially complex) calculations, dealing with numerical data or with stored items of other information, also used for ..." Which seems to me to be only one step removed from the apocryphal definition in the mythical dictionary of computer terms: "Recursion: see recursion." Whatever definition you prefer, "always remember that the computer is out to get you; the proof of this can be seen every time it does exactly what you told it to do!" Regards, Brian M. Russell. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 10 12:57:04 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 10:57:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <425965FB.5060506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <425965FB.5060506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <32997.64.169.63.74.1113155824.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > Tony Duell wrote: > Wasn't there a time when the Laserwriter was the most powerful computer > Apple sold? It used a 12MHz 68000, the Macs of the time used a 8MHz 68000 Ben wrote: > Hey what about memory ... Did not the original Mac come with 128KB of > memory? The original Mac had 128K of RAM and 64K of ROM. The Laserwriter had 1.5M of RAM and 512K of ROM. From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 10 13:05:06 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:05:06 -0400 Subject: rsts pip tape Message-ID: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi, I made an image of an old tape I have (I think it has a copy of the whitesmith's C compiler on it). I'm not sure how it was made, however. I think it is just done with PIP. It has a lot of tape marks separated by a variable number of records. The first record of each tape 'file' is 14 bytes. All records after that are 512 bytes. The 512 byte records are clearly the file contents. After the file contents there is a tape mark. I'm guessing the 14 bytes is radix-50 file name + info. What's the best way to make sense of this from unix? (short of running RSTS on an emulator). Is there a unix/dos program which which can interpret the data? Will PUTR be able to read and show a directory if I turn the simh format file into a byte stream? (wish putr could read simh style tape images) thanks! -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 13:48:15 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:48:15 -0400 Subject: Must-have PDP-11 accessory on eBay -- VINTAGE BUS GRANTOSAURUSREX In-Reply-To: <425580C7.7669C44@groenenberg.net> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A2EE9@sbs.jdfogg.com> <425580C7.7669C44@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On Apr 7, 2005 2:49 PM, Edward wrote: > Actually not. I had 3 of them (did give 2 away to friends). They are original > DEC issued ones. It may have been a marketing joke of some sort. Those were not made by DEC, as I narrated in length in a previous post, but by my former employer, Software Results Corp. Somewhere, I have the original artwork. The presense of "SRC" on the copper legend and the absence of any Digital logos or copyrights is consistent with its history. They were produced around 1980-1981, when SRC produced their first non-DEC-based product, the COMBOARD(R)-1, a 68000-based bisync engine for Unibus. It replaced a chassis of DEC cards like a KDJ11, DPV11, MSV11... with a single board. The grant card was needed because at the time, we could not get dual-height grant cards with NPR grant from DEC. These days, I happen to have a *lot* more COMBOARDs than grant cards. I keep thinking I should find a way to hack them into SCSI or IDE interfaces. They wouldn't be MSCP, so drivers would be required (they do not conform to DEC's register pattern, so it would be really difficult to make one appear to be another, known, controller). With all of the Classic distractions around me, I never seem to have any time for such a project. -ethan From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Apr 10 14:24:13 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:24:13 EDT Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 30 Message-ID: <1fa.63d6002.2f8ad75d@aol.com> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 14:27:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:27:57 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2005 10:49 AM, John Foust wrote: > Well, back in that day, the Laserwriter had a CPU quite comparable to > what was in the personal computer. Same for the Commodore 64 and its > 1541 disk drive. :-) The original Apple LaserWriter had a 12MHz 68000, 1MB of RAM and 1.5MB of ROM (the ROM amount _might_ be for the Plus... but it's on that order)... remarkedly more powerful than the Mac Plus one often found attached to them... the $5000 price tag also explained why Apple was big on networked printers early on. It was unrealistic to expect that a company would buy one printer per user. The C-64 and the 1541 were more expectedly matched (both 1MHz 6502-family processors, more RAM in the C-64...), but the point is well taken. In the case of the PET and the 2040/3040/4040 drives, there were _two_ 6502-family CPUs in the drive, and one in the main computer, one of the reasons the dual disk drive cost twice as much as the computer it was attached to. -ethan ObFolklore... Don Lancaster used to refer to his Apple LW as his "PostScript Computer". He described sitting at it with a terminal and interactively entering PS programs to produce a variety of complicated outputs. I used that as an inspiration when I devised the minimal PS to print aligned text on SDLT paperboard label inserts, a year ago. Following his lead, I turned my project from an OpenOffice document tweakfest into a genuine programming exercise. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Apr 10 14:29:31 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:29:31 EDT Subject: SunOS, LaserWriters, Resolution Enhancement Message-ID: <53.2540ebf5.2f8ad89b@aol.com> For a while, I saw www.sun3arc.org had downloads of SunOS for Sun3 machines. They don't seem to be up now, but still have a DNS so I'm not sure what's up there. At introduction, LaserWriters had the interesting distinction of being more powerful than the Mac that drove them. I dimly remember this explanation of Resolution Enhancement (don't know if it's marketer-speak or not): The printer only prints 300 (600, whatever) DPI, but along the edges of curves those dots can be made smaller even though there aren't any more of them. The result is smoother looking curves From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 10 14:37:04 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> Message-ID: <33258.64.169.63.74.1113161824.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Ethan wrote: > The original Apple LaserWriter had a 12MHz 68000, 1MB of RAM and 1.5MB > of ROM (the ROM amount _might_ be for the Plus... but it's on that > order)... original Laserwriter: 512K ROM, 1.5M RAM Laserwriter Plus: 1M ROM, 1.5M RAM The original could be upgraded to the Plus by swapping ROMs. The increased size was mostly occupied by additional fonts. Eric From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun Apr 10 14:51:21 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:51:21 -0400 Subject: rsts pip tape In-Reply-To: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <425983B9.8050702@splab.cas.neu.edu> Brad, If it is in DOS-11 format, I can read it on my vax, if it is 1600 or 6250 BPI. The vax will read ansi tapes in native mode, and with EXCHANGE, it iwill read DOS-11 tapes. Also, I've found out, I can at least read it in using BIGTPC and sometimes get a directory once it is on disk. Joe Heck Brad Parker wrote: >Hi, > >I made an image of an old tape I have (I think it has a copy of the >whitesmith's C compiler on it). > >I'm not sure how it was made, however. I think it is just done with >PIP. It has a lot of tape marks separated by a variable number of >records. > >The first record of each tape 'file' is 14 bytes. All records after >that are 512 bytes. The 512 byte records are clearly the file contents. >After the file contents there is a tape mark. > >I'm guessing the 14 bytes is radix-50 file name + info. > >What's the best way to make sense of this from unix? (short of running >RSTS on an emulator). Is there a unix/dos program which which can >interpret the data? > >Will PUTR be able to read and show a directory if I turn the simh format >file into a byte stream? (wish putr could read simh style tape images) > >thanks! > >-brad > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 10 14:59:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:59:30 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050410120227.10d2ede8.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> <20050410120227.10d2ede8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Apr 10, 2005 1:02 PM, Scott Stevens wrote: > The LaserWriter had one of those massive 64 pin DIP package 68000 chips > on it. Often the LaserWriter had a more powerful CPU than the Macintosh > connected to it. The size and internal arrangement of the 68000 CPU was identical between the Mac 128/512/Plus/etc and the LaserWriter (64-pin DIP, 8 32-bit D registers, 8 32-bit A registers, 23-bit address bus, 16-bit data bus...). The difference was that the computers ran at a nominal 8MHz (less effective speed due to video-induced bus blockages), and the printers ran at 12MHz. The 64-pin DIP was the standard 68000/68010 package, and only came in a Z package (square with pins underneath), and a PLCC package (square, SMT pins on the sides) later. I think Eric Smith has the RAM/ROM differences right. The original LW had 1.5MB of RAM and 512K of ROM, and I _think_ the Plus had an additional 512K of ROM (more PostScript fonts, IIRC). -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 10 15:11:56 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 13:11:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: References: <20050408090039.E696@localhost> <47324.207.145.53.202.1112991192.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <4256E928.70800@oldskool.org> <200504100228.WAA17012@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <6.2.1.2.2.20050410094833.04ca3200@mail> <20050410120227.10d2ede8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <33333.64.169.63.74.1113163916.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Ethan wrote: > The difference was that the computers ran at a nominal > 8MHz 7.8336 MHz (divided down from 15.6672 MHz crystal). > (less effective speed due to video-induced bus blockages), About 15-20% less, effective. > and the printers ran at 12MHz. 12.5 MHz, if memory serves. In 1987-88 I worked on a design for an accelerator for the LaserWriter, using a 68020 processor and faster 32-bit wide DRAM. The hardware was OK, but it took too long to reverse engineer enough of the firmware to patch the exception handlers to deal with the '020 exception stack frame format. The project was cancelled before completion. Instead we built an adapter to use ADB keyboards and mice on the pre-ADB Mac models, or the early keyboards and mice on the ADB Macs. It was called "ADBridge". Not many sold. Unfortunately I don't have one any longer. Eric From ss at allegro.com Sun Apr 10 16:13:36 2005 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:13:36 -0700 Subject: Toshiba PA8312U (2 MB memory card) question Message-ID: <42593490.20824.49436E@localhost> I just picked up a couple of Toshiba PA8312U 2 MB memory cards, and was wondering if they're useful in anything other than an early Toshiba laptop? At first I hoped they were some kind of Fujitsu-like pre-PCMCIA card ... but they've got only one row of about 44 sockets, unlike a PCMCIA card with 2 rows of fewer sockets (holes) per row. Also, if anyone wants one (or more), I may be able to get more of them. thanks, Stan From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Apr 10 16:16:02 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 16:16:02 -0500 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050408.193430.-273829.0.paul-pentecost7@juno.com> References: <20050408.193430.-273829.0.paul-pentecost7@juno.com> Message-ID: <20050410161602.2b711967.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 19:34:29 -0400 Paul E Pentecost wrote: > I am looking for the origional GW-Basic Compiler what would you like > in trade I do have a great deal in my research Archives here. > > Dr. Pentecost > > paul-pentecost7 at juno.com > GW-Basic is an interpreter (run-time compilation). My understanding is that it was originally part of MS-DOS. PC-DOS from IBM had BASIC and BASICA, which relied on the ROM BASIC in a True Blue system. I have the IBM Basic Compiler 1.0, also the IBM Pascal Compiler 1.0, in IBM slipcovers with manuals. They go nicely with my PC-DOS 1.0. I'm not looking to trade them, though. Doesn't the GW in GW-Basic stand for Graphics Workstation? Is MS-DOS really where the BASIC interpreter with this name originates? I know Microsoft produced a lot of other BASIC versions that predate MS-DOS. Please correct any of the above. I am not an authority on any of this. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 10 16:48:41 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:48:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050410161602.2b711967.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050408.193430.-273829.0.paul-pentecost7@juno.com> <20050410161602.2b711967.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <33515.64.169.63.74.1113169721.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Scott wrote: > Doesn't the GW in GW-Basic stand for Graphics Workstation? I'm not sure that an official expansion was ever given. Most references claim it stands for "Gee Whiz" (one step beyond "Advanced" in "ABASIC" on the PC). A few people have claimed that it stands for "Gates, William", but that seems dubious. > Is MS-DOS really where the BASIC interpreter with this name originates? That appears to be where the name originated, but the actual BASIC interpreter is an evolution from the first Microsoft BASIC interpreter for the 8086/8088, back in 1980. Which is itself pretty closely related to their 8080 BASIC interpreter, such as MBASIC 5.x on CP/M, which was an evolution of their 4K Altair BASIC. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 10 16:55:31 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 14:55:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050410161602.2b711967.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050408.193430.-273829.0.paul-pentecost7@juno.com> <20050410161602.2b711967.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050410144812.C96239@shell.lmi.net> > > I am looking for the origional GW-Basic Compiler what would you like On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > GW-Basic is an interpreter (run-time compilation). > My understanding is that it was originally part of MS-DOS. PC-DOS from > IBM had BASIC and BASICA, which relied on the ROM BASIC in a True Blue > system. > > I have the IBM Basic Compiler 1.0, aka "BASCOM" > also the IBM Pascal Compiler 1.0, in > IBM slipcovers with manuals. They go nicely with my PC-DOS 1.0. I'm > not looking to trade them, though. > > Doesn't the GW in GW-Basic stand for Graphics Workstation? It very well might, but the author of the MS/IBM Pascal Compiler told me that it stood for "Gee Wiz". He also told me to NOT use the Pascal compiler's runtime library. > Is MS-DOS > really where the BASIC interpreter with this name originates? I know > Microsoft produced a lot of other BASIC versions that predate MS-DOS. The CP/M BASIC was NOT named "GW". > Please correct any of the above. I am not an authority on any of this. None of us are. Particularly not the ones who claim to be. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Apr 10 21:22:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 22:22:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Thinkpad 730T pen wanted Message-ID: I obtained an IBM FS tool today at a hamfest - I do not know what it was for. It contains an IBM 730T Thinkpad and a little printer. The Thinkpad is a pen based machine, but GUESS WHAT IS MISSING. So, if anyone has an IBM pen, I would like to talk to you. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 10 21:44:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <002d01c53ba8$e7965220$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Its a very visible data point. Anybody with an ebay account can keep > track of what systems they are interested in were sold (if they sold > which is always good to know) for. Nobody knows what you can get a > system for Sellam because it is not mentioned in public, so the deal > might well not even exist to the rest of us collectors. If your experience consists solely of tracking eBay auctions then you're never going to fully understand the dynamics of this particular hobby. You are seeing only a subset of the actual deals taking place on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. If you're going to want to be in the business of valuation, you first need to keep track of data points from many sources, including thrift stores, flea markets, surplus shops, ham fests, private sales, surplus auctions, etc. You also need to understand the dynamics of each source. In the case of eBay, if you have a handle on the other sources then you know that prices are consistently inflated in that venue, so you know to apply a fudge factor to normalize an eBay sale. Thrift stores and surplus auctions are generally on the lower end of the scale, so you apply a fudge factor to normalize the value upwards. > There are peaks and valleys of what something sells for on ebay just like > any other venue. The shear volume of same items sold over a long period of > time to me is a good indication of what the retail value of that items is , > more accurate then any printed price guide or somebody bragging about > getting one for a buck at a flee market 2000 miles from me. You're discounting the tendency of the eBay auction mechanism to consistently inflate prices. This is well known and is the reason why it's so popular with sellers. It's also the basis of the persistent gripes you hear from buyers on eBay (i.e. eOverpay, etc.) If you don't understand this then you have no business philosophizing about values. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 10 21:46:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <000801c53ba9$f2cd74b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > Ya know... far be it from me to ever scream about posts... but we really > have beat the "ebay price points" topic to a pulp many, many, many, many > times over. It's obvious what some people think and what others think. > Nothing new ever comes along in that discussion. > > Just my own two millidollars worth ;) Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 10 21:57:54 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:57:54 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: <000801c53ba9$f2cd74b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050410215731.04b55178@mail> At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) - John From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 10 21:56:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Switch Handle Pictures In-Reply-To: <019301c53bd6$ba7cac20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Vince Slyngstad wrote: > I put up some pictures of the switch handles I have cast so far. (It will > be clear why I think they're not ready for prime time.) > > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/sw-handles.html A very respectable effort, Vince! Keep on going... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sun Apr 10 22:05:28 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 05:05:28 +0200 Subject: Odd DEC panel available. In-Reply-To: References: <0IEJ0015P5VM0PO7@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <000a01c53af6$6ea107a0$0100a8c0@screamer> <033001c53c7e$4d182120$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1113188728.30595.4.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-04-08 at 19:56 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 8, 2005 5:02 PM, Jim Beacon wrote: > > Sounds a little like the panels on the top of our old DX11 units, which went > > from PDP11/45 to IBM 9020. The included a whole bunch of Flip Chip logic > > panels, as well as various Unibus repeater and driver cards. Still have one > > of the indicator panels somewhere (probably still have a couple of DX11's at > > work.....) > > I wish I could find one of those panels (they are generic and used by > a wad of options). Mine would go on an RK11-C that would then go on a > PDP-11/20. Until I locate or replicate an indicator panel, I do have > plenty of other hardware to restore, so I can bide my time. > > I didn't know that any variants came with switches, though. > > -ethan After reading about the PDP-6 I was curious to see if the CHM had one, so I searched their Artifact Collection for it. No PDP-6, but since the last time I was there, they included an online photo search! WAY COOL! A large PDP-6 configuration is visible here: http://tinyurl.com/647vf (leads to the CHM) a much higher-res 6MB tif is here: http://tinyurl.com/728xe Is the panel in view here? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 10 22:24:05 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:24:05 -0400 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: <000801c53ba9$f2cd74b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <6.2.1.2.2.20050410215731.04b55178@mail> Message-ID: <002401c53e45$f626a340$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Foust" To: Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) > > Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) > > - John > He is dealer, anytime you make a living off of your hobby you will view it differently then somebody who does it purely for entertainment value. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 10 22:50:15 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 21:50:15 -0600 Subject: IBM Thinkpad 730T pen wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4259F3F7.3000506@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >I obtained an IBM FS tool today at a hamfest - I do not know what it was >for. It contains an IBM 730T Thinkpad and a little printer. The Thinkpad >is a pen based machine, but GUESS WHAT IS MISSING. > >So, if anyone has an IBM pen, I would like to talk to you. > > Sounds like a replacement part should still be made or stocked by IBM. Ben alias woodelf. From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Apr 11 00:51:02 2005 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (GManuel (GMC)) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 01:51:02 -0400 Subject: SGI Indy keyboard In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050407231222.00b2ac30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > They didn't make ANY that I can see. I'm typing this on a granite PC > keyboard with Noteworthy's name on it. I've compared it closely with > several SGI granite keyboards that I have here and they're > IDENTICAL except > for the sticker with the name. > > Joe > > Thank you for all that replied. The missing features I was talking about was things like the cursor keys, PgUp, PgDn etc were not working. Anyway, as it turns out the keyboard that I had grabbed was bad so I pitched it and tried a brand new one I had here and it works perfectly. Thanks again for setting me straight, Greg Manuel >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From kelly at catcorner.org Sun Apr 10 14:34:43 2005 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 15:34:43 -0400 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> Through the grapevine I heard about some computers that needed saving. Anyway, I made the 1.5 hour drive to Montvale, NJ and this is what I got for my effort: 3 TRS-80 model 12 computers, complete with keyboards. 2 Boxes of manuals 1 Box of miscellaneous 8" diskettes. I know there isn't a lot of interest in the model 12, but it is one of the very first computers I ever worked on. I'm glad that I was able to find 3 of them in great shape. If anyone knows of any of the "big iron" TRS-80/Tandy computers that need rescuing, let me know. I've hauled them back to New Jersey from as far away as Arkansas. Kelly From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Apr 10 17:02:12 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:02:12 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4259A264.7000903@gifford.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > I don't suppose there's anywhere online with a very simple illustrated > step-by-step guide on how to do this, is there? My IPX is dead, I can > just about solder without burning myself - on a good day - and I'd > love to fix it. I did a couple of Sun NVRAM battery fixes (a while ago now) and I took digital photos. If there's interest in seeing how to do it, I can put up a web page. I didn't bother to remove the internal battery, I just exposed the connections and wired a lithium cell in parallel. Another one I did (on 31 Dec 1999!) used an external two-cell AA battery holder. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Apr 10 17:12:20 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:12:20 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <575131af050408104748b600c@mail.gmail.com> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <4256BE4C.7040609@internet1.net> <575131af050408104748b600c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4259A4C4.40901@gifford.co.uk> On Apr 8, 2005 6:24 PM, C Fernandez wrote: >Here's another one: > >http://www.bhargavaz.net/nvram/nvram.html Hmm.. not sure I like the idea of soldering to a lithium cell (I think Tony mentioned it was a bad idea, too). I used a lithium cell holder (PCB mounting) and glued it to the top of the NVRAM. I also have much better photos (in focus, no less!). -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Apr 11 03:27:20 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 04:27:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Definition of a Computer In-Reply-To: <000501c53d0e$11945f20$a6252850@oemcomputer> References: <200504070755.j377rfFY049947@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000501c53d0e$11945f20$a6252850@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <200504110829.EAA21933@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] > Which seems to me to be only one step removed from the apocryphal > definition in the mythical dictionary of computer terms: > "Recursion: see recursion." Not so apocryphal and mythical as all that. See the Jargon File entry for recursion. (http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/R/recursion.html, for those who don't want to bother walking the links from http://www.jargon.org/ for themselves.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Mon Apr 11 05:21:19 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 06:21:19 -0400 Subject: ebay score Message-ID: Every now and then, you can still get a good buy on ebay. Described simply as: 5 1/4 Full height floppy disk drives this lot: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5183306657 is not one, not two, but three MPI B51 floppy drives. Ohio Scientific used this model in all of their "MF" (mini-floppy) offerings. If you don't want to bother following the link, I got the lot for $10 plus shipping. One of the drives has a gray faceplate, which I've never seen before. I've had a hard time figuring out what other manufacturers used B51s. Atari used the mechanism in some of their 810s but with their own custom electronics. Before any Atari enthusiasts scream, I have not and will not disassemble any working 810s for parts. From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Apr 11 06:08:37 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:08:37 +0200 (MEST) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) What made you an "expert" in valuation of goods, other than the fact that you have a warehouse loaded with stuff? --f From lproven at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 07:37:20 2005 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:37:20 +0100 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <4259A4C4.40901@gifford.co.uk> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <4256BE4C.7040609@internet1.net> <575131af050408104748b600c@mail.gmail.com> <4259A4C4.40901@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0504110537a261bf7@mail.gmail.com> On Apr 10, 2005 11:12 PM, John Honniball wrote: > > On Apr 8, 2005 6:24 PM, C Fernandez wrote: > >Here's another one: > > > >http://www.bhargavaz.net/nvram/nvram.html > > Hmm.. not sure I like the idea of soldering to a lithium cell (I > think Tony mentioned it was a bad idea, too). Good point. > I used a lithium > cell holder (PCB mounting) and glued it to the top of the NVRAM. > > I also have much better photos (in focus, no less!). I would very much like to see such a site if you put one up! -- Liam Proven Home: http://welcome.to/liamsweb * Blog: http://lproven.livejournal.com AOL, Yahoo UK: liamproven * ICQ: 73187508 * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 11 08:16:57 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:16:57 -0400 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050408180008.3fd312bf.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16986.30921.711000.45589@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> If you're too late (and these days you're almost certain to be Scott> too late with those old boxes,) you either 'make up' a MAC Scott> address after you solder the exterior battery onto the NVRAM Scott> module (there is a well documented procedure on this) or you Scott> 'own' a block of MAC addresses like I do (somebody had Scott> officially gotten a big block of MAC addresses for some Scott> embedded project and gave out extra blocks he didn't need. I Scott> have a block of 256 for my personal use). Scott> Or you can find some ancient 3Com NIC, say a 3c503 or the Scott> like, 'retire' it and and steal it's MAC address. Best Scott> practice, of course, is to know the original MAC address to Scott> replace. The officially approved procedure for making up MAC addresses is to take them from the "locally administered" range. Any MAC address with bit 1 set -- for example 02:00:00:00:00:00 -- is a locally administered address. By contrast, address blocks assigned by IEEE to companies ("OUI") have bit 2 clear. (There are a few old exceptions -- DEC got AA-00-01, 02, 03 before this definition was created, so those were grandfathered. Note, though, that the DECnet address prefix (AA-00-04-00) exactly fits the definition of "locally administered".) So if you have to make up an address, pick a locally administered one that you didn't already assign to another device on the same LAN, and it's guaranteed not to conflict with any company-assigned NIC address. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 11 08:27:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:27:11 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> If you want a rack mount unit, look out for Memcor scopes - these >> seem to be a re-badged Tek 647, supplied under a military contract >> for navigational beacons, and can be got for very little, as >> no-one realises what they are (I got mine for ?30 including >> shipping in the UK, and it is a 100MHz unit dual trace unit). William> Watch out! The military scopes that look like Teks but are William> not are really bad clones (Lavoies are the worst). They were William> made under license and just are not up to Tek William> standards. When they were in service they were the curse of William> the ET and Tech Rep crowd. William> Also watch out for Tek scopes that were made for the William> military. Look closely on many, and you will discover a few William> features were left out of the military models (generally William> AN/USM-somethings), but look nearly identical. Some shady William> dealers do not point these differences out. That's what I have. It's a barebones 7603. For example, Tek offered a "readout" option, i.e., display the sweep and vertical sensitivity settings on the screen. That was probably pretty common, but the unit I have didn't come with that. No harm done, I've never had it before, and since it was an option I wouldn't call it cheating if someone sells a unit without the option. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 11 08:29:56 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:29:56 -0400 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <425A7BD4.1010105@atarimuseum.com> Hi Kelly, Nice haul indeed... The Model 12's are just slightly different from the Model 16's right? Can you still run Xenix on them? Curt Kelly Leavitt wrote: >Through the grapevine I heard about some computers that needed saving. >Anyway, I made the 1.5 hour drive to Montvale, NJ and this is what I got for >my effort: > >3 TRS-80 model 12 computers, complete with keyboards. >2 Boxes of manuals >1 Box of miscellaneous 8" diskettes. > >I know there isn't a lot of interest in the model 12, but it is one of the >very first computers I ever worked on. I'm glad that I was able to find 3 of >them in great shape. > >If anyone knows of any of the "big iron" TRS-80/Tandy computers that need >rescuing, let me know. I've hauled them back to New Jersey from as far away >as Arkansas. > >Kelly > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 11 08:30:58 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:30:58 -0400 Subject: battery desoldering advice References: <00aa01c53c68$f06d7de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42576289.2060404@internet1.net> Message-ID: <16986.31762.697000.855015@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "C" == C Fernandez writes: C> Jay, If your quick about it, soldering shouldn't hurt a battery. C> I've kept a wet cloth handy while doing it, so I can keep the C> battery cool. We've actually been talking about replacing nvram C> batteries in another thread.... those all get soldered. I'm not sure I'd want to solder a battery. However... a tip for soldering things with a lot of metal in them (i.e., that suck up heat) when you don't want to overheat stuff. Somewhat counterintuitively, you should use the *heaviest* iron you can find. That will heat up the object quickly, giving the least time for the heat to spread. For example, my plain old Weller will solder PL-259 connectors, but something heavier will do it better *and* with less damage to the coax. paul From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 11 08:32:28 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:32:28 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425A7C6C.9040208@atarimuseum.com> Atari 810's disk drive models used both Tandon and MPI mech's and had appropriate face plates for each type. You can still scrounge up both mech types from B&C Computervisions and Best Electronics, but you'll pay a pretty-penny for them, easier to pick up a full 810 off of Ebay for $10-$15 Curt Bill Sudbrink wrote: >Every now and then, you can still get a good buy on ebay. >Described simply as: > > 5 1/4 Full height floppy disk drives > >this lot: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5183306657 > >is not one, not two, but three MPI B51 floppy drives. Ohio >Scientific used this model in all of their "MF" (mini-floppy) >offerings. If you don't want to bother following the link, >I got the lot for $10 plus shipping. One of the drives has a >gray faceplate, which I've never seen before. I've had a hard >time figuring out what other manufacturers used B51s. Atari >used the mechanism in some of their 810s but with their own >custom electronics. Before any Atari enthusiasts scream, I >have not and will not disassemble any working 810s for parts. > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 11 09:40:27 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:40:27 -0400 Subject: rsts pip tape References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> Hi, Brad> I made an image of an old tape I have (I think it has a copy of Brad> the whitesmith's C compiler on it). Brad> I'm not sure how it was made, however. I think it is just done Brad> with PIP. It has a lot of tape marks separated by a variable Brad> number of records. Brad> The first record of each tape 'file' is 14 bytes. All records Brad> after that are 512 bytes. The 512 byte records are clearly the Brad> file contents. After the file contents there is a tape mark. Brad> I'm guessing the 14 bytes is radix-50 file name + info. Brad> What's the best way to make sense of this from unix? (short of Brad> running RSTS on an emulator). Is there a unix/dos program Brad> which which can interpret the data? Don't know. What you have is a standard "DOS label" tape. It's called that because that format was first used in DOS-11, then adopted by RSTS. Some of the other OSs switched to ANSI labels more enthousiastically than RSTS did, but I'd think that they can all read that. VMS too, probably -- is there a "FLX" tool in VMS? Yes, the first three words are name.ext in rad50. Next is PPN, but that's always [1,1] except in DOS which took that field more seriously. There's also a protection code, again not meaningful except in DOS. The creation date is at offset 10, in DOS format (year since 1970 * 1000 + day-in-year). So the format is pretty trivial, you can just read it directly. Come to think of it, if you know which files you want, just read the tape straight, and strip off the first 14 bytes. Text files will be just plain CRLF-delimited text, no RMS stuff on DOS tapes... paul From pt at new.rr.com Mon Apr 11 09:20:47 2005 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:20:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: CI accessories available Message-ID: Two DEC star coupler panels (removed from SC008 cabinet) with jumper cables and some terminators, also a box of CI cable -the nice thin kind, not the evil thick variety. In NE Wisconsin, needs to be claimed by Friday. Paul From Tim at rikers.org Mon Apr 11 09:57:19 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:57:19 -0500 Subject: Cipher M990 service manual In-Reply-To: <53f0db81a33a2928430e7b8276123d11@spies.com> References: <53f0db81a33a2928430e7b8276123d11@spies.com> Message-ID: <425A904F.6080700@Rikers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > The service manual is now online at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cipher Excellent! This is the one I have someplace, but have been unable to find. Thank you for putting it up! I realise the tech manual is already large, but the schematic and board layouts pages would be nice to have in higher res as many text labels etc are not readable. It's very useful as is though. Thanx again. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 11 09:58:07 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:58:07 -0400 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> <16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com> I just posted a video from 1983 with a walkthrough of the inside of the Atari Home Computer Division development building, during the video, one of the coders is sitting in front of a terminal and I would like to ID it and possible try to track down one to obtain, can anybody ID this terminal: http://www.atarimuseum.com/downloads/atari-terminal.gif BTW, for those who would like to see the video, its a 14min 15mb wmv file: http://www.atarimuseum.com/ahs_archives/archives/Video-Library/video-files/misc/Greg_Riker_1983.wmv Curt -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 11 10:10:41 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:10:41 -0500 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com><16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Curt wrote... >one of the coders is sitting in front of a terminal and I would like to ID >it and possible try to track down one to obtain, can anybody ID this >terminal: The terminal is an old style Data General Dasher. Not sure of the exact model, something like D210 comes to mind. But in any case, it's a DG Dasher. If you find one, let me know. I've been looking for one for some time to go on an Eclipse S/130 I have :) Jay From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 11 10:15:52 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:15:52 -0500 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com> References: <16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> <16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050411101532.02406a20@mail.ubanproductions.com> It looks like a DG Dasher of some sort. --tom At 10:58 AM 4/11/2005 -0400, you wrote: >I just posted a video from 1983 with a walkthrough of the inside of the >Atari Home Computer Division development building, during the video, one >of the coders is sitting in front of a terminal and I would like to ID it >and possible try to track down one to obtain, can anybody ID this terminal: > > > >http://www.atarimuseum.com/downloads/atari-terminal.gif > > >BTW, for those who would like to see the video, its a 14min 15mb wmv file: > >http://www.atarimuseum.com/ahs_archives/archives/Video-Library/video-files/misc/Greg_Riker_1983.wmv > > > >Curt > > > > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. >Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 > > > From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Apr 11 11:25:18 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:25:18 EDT Subject: FPU emulation in IRIX? Message-ID: <14.431a3c01.2f8bfeee@aol.com> While looking around, I found a SGI brochure on FutureTech that indicated that the FPA was an option on the Personal Iris [4D/20 - ???] Does anyone have an idea of which versions of IRIX emulated FPU instructions? (5.3 doesn't seem to) - Scott Quinn From rickb at bensene.com Mon Apr 11 11:47:19 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:47:19 -0700 Subject: Old Chip Info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20050411164718.2029B2C00C@pail.bensene.com> I've recently acquired an old Wang 144T programmable electronic calculator. Early '70's technology. Uses a lot of 7400-series TTL, along with some older DTL. It is a microcoded machine, using a Texas Instruments TMS 2600 2K-bit Mask Programmed ROM for the microcode store. I want to try to capture the content of the ROM, but I've not been able to find a pinout and specifications for it anywhere. Anyone out there have any old TI databooks that they might find this old device in? The date codes on all of the parts in the machine range from 7132 to 7144, so it's all mid-to-late '71 timeframe for manufacture, if that helps. According to one reference I found, the chip was introduced in 1970. Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Mon Apr 11 09:16:48 2005 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:16:48 -0400 Subject: ASCI micro68 system References: <4256FCAA.9090901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <425A86D0.90D62D8D@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> I think that I've asked about this system before. It seems to be a 6800 training system with hex keypad and 4 digit display, rs-232 and perhaps a cassette interface. It is labeled "ASCI u68" (the "u" is a greek mu) and "SYSYEM X". Apparently, it might have been known also as "micro mule II", according to a vey old sale ad that I found. It is nicely built on a black metallic chassis with wooden sides and a flip-over acrylic top. The serial interface seems to adjust to the terminal's baud but insists on using 7bit, odd parity. I've been able to examine and change the memory's contents using the hex keypad. There's a flap for a card edge connector that remains free; I guess it is probably for the cassette (I haven't yet traced the thing). Unfortunately, my web searches have yielded lots of info about ASCI supercomputers, misspellings of ASCII and in one occasion a misspelling of micromole by some chemist, but nothing useful about this system. There seems to be one in the Topeka Computing Museum collection http://www.gateman.com/museum/t3.html So, does anybody have info about this system? Carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at skipthispartieee.org Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 11 12:28:29 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:28:29 -0400 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com><16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com> <007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> Jay West wrote: > The terminal is an old style Data General Dasher. Not sure of the exact > model, something like D210 comes to mind. But in any case, it's a DG > Dasher. > > If you find one, let me know. I've been looking for one for some time to > go on an Eclipse S/130 I have :) By strange coincidence, a student just offered me "an old DG/UX system with a whole pile of terminals". One of his company's client companies is looking to get rid of it. I told him to give them my email address and that I'd make sure it all got picked up, but who knows if it'll come to anything.... Doc From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Apr 11 13:02:51 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:02:51 +0200 Subject: CI accessories available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050411200251.5e495085.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:20:47 -0500 (CDT) Paul Thompson wrote: > also a box of CI cable -the nice thin kind, not the evil thick > variety. BTW: CI cables are simple 50 Ohm coax cables. I have a set of "thin" CI cables and the cable is ordinary RG58 == Cheapernet-Ethernet cable. The only difference is that CI cables have TNC connectors where Cheapernet uses BNC. There are TNC-to-BNC adapters, so if someone need thin CI cable he / she can reuse old Cheapernet cabling. (The length limit of this thin cables may be lower then for the thick cables as thin cable has higher attenuation.) > In NE Wisconsin, needs to be claimed by Friday. Beyond the Big Pond... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 13:31:54 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 11:31:54 -0700 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com> <16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com> <007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: It is a Data General Dasher 100 or 200. The 210 is later and looks quite different. A nice space age looking terminal. I think the first in the DG lines. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 11 13:44:58 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:44:58 -0500 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com><16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL><425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com><007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP><425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001f01c53ec6$9006d220$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Paxton wrote... > It is a Data General Dasher 100 or 200. The 210 is later and looks > quite different. Awesome, now I know what I'm really looking for. If anyone comes across a Dasher 100 or 200, I'd be quite interested! Regards, Jay West From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 11 13:47:09 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:47:09 -0400 Subject: CI accessories available References: <20050411200251.5e495085.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <16986.50733.316000.171095@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jochen" == Jochen Kunz writes: Jochen> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:20:47 -0500 (CDT) Paul Thompson Jochen> wrote: >> also a box of CI cable -the nice thin kind, not the evil thick >> variety. Jochen> BTW: CI cables are simple 50 Ohm coax cables. I have a set of Jochen> "thin" CI cables and the cable is ordinary RG58 == Jochen> Cheapernet-Ethernet cable. The only difference is that CI Jochen> cables have TNC connectors where Cheapernet uses BNC. There Jochen> are TNC-to-BNC adapters, so if someone need thin CI cable he Jochen> / she can reuse old Cheapernet cabling. (The length limit of Jochen> this thin cables may be lower then for the thick cables as Jochen> thin cable has higher attenuation.) I didn't know there is any such thing as "thin CI cable". The only CI cable I've ever seen is medium thick -- halfway between RG58 and RG8, usually blue, and *very* stiff. Considering the bandwidth of CI, it's probably rather unforgiving of cheap cable. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 11 14:30:27 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul In-Reply-To: <425A7BD4.1010105@atarimuseum.com> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> <425A7BD4.1010105@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <62211.207.145.53.202.1113247827.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Curt wrote: > Nice haul indeed... The Model 12's are just slightly different > from the Model 16's right? Can you still run Xenix on them? The Model 12 is a cost-reduced Model 2. No 68000 present, though IIRC it could be upgraded to a Model 6000, which was the replacement for the Model 16B. Eric From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 11 16:03:08 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:03:08 -0500 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 1.0 Message-ID: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> Announcing: ***************************************************** * * * VCF / Midwest 1.0 "Lite" * * * * Sat-Sun, May 28-29 * * Purdue University: West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 * * * ***************************************************** Purdue's IEEE Computer Society will be sponsoring the first Midwest-area Vintage Computer Festival on May 28-29. We are currently looking for people who want to exhibit, and potential speakers for the event. If you want to do either, or know someone who might, please have them get in contact with us at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Also, if you are planning on attending, please send mail, so we can get a rough attendance count. More information on the event and the West Lafayette area are posted up at: http://computer-refuge.org/vcfmw/ Back now to your regularly scheduled programming. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 11 16:08:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:08:03 -0600 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul In-Reply-To: <62211.207.145.53.202.1113247827.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> <425A7BD4.1010105@atarimuseum.com> <62211.207.145.53.202.1113247827.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <425AE733.5020900@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: >The Model 12 is a cost-reduced Model 2. No 68000 present, though IIRC >it could be upgraded to a Model 6000, which was the replacement for >the Model 16B. > >Eric > > Well I was just looking at TRS 80 web page, and this may give more information. http://www.kjsl.com/trs80/ Ben alias woodelf From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 11 17:43:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:43:12 -0400 Subject: ASCI micro68 system In-Reply-To: <425A86D0.90D62D8D@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> References: <4256FCAA.9090901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050411184312.00b48c20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Carlos, I can't tell you much about them but I've seen the ASCI systems. I went to an auction at Brevard Community College several years ago and they had a pile of them. However they also had a pile of HP 5036 trainers so I spent all my money buying them instead :-) I do remember that there were several different untis for the ASCI systems but I don't remember what the non-CPU units did. The guy that bought them turned around and sold all of them on E-bay shortly afterwards. I've also seen others on E-bay. I expect that if you set up a favorite search routine there and have it notify you when new ones are posted you'll find one sooner or later. Joe At 10:16 AM 4/11/05 -0400, you wrote: >I think that I've asked about this system before. It seems >to be a 6800 training system with hex keypad and 4 digit display, >rs-232 and perhaps a cassette interface. It is labeled >"ASCI u68" (the "u" is a greek mu) and "SYSYEM X". >Apparently, it might have been known also as "micro mule II", >according to a vey old sale ad that I found. It is nicely >built on a black metallic chassis with wooden sides and a >flip-over acrylic top. > >The serial interface seems to adjust to the terminal's baud >but insists on using 7bit, odd parity. I've been able to >examine and change the memory's contents using the hex keypad. > >There's a flap for a card edge connector that remains free; >I guess it is probably for the cassette (I haven't yet traced >the thing). > >Unfortunately, my web searches have yielded lots of info about >ASCI supercomputers, misspellings of ASCII and in one >occasion a misspelling of micromole by some chemist, >but nothing useful about this system. There seems to be one in >the Topeka Computing Museum collection > >http://www.gateman.com/museum/t3.html > >So, does anybody have info about this system? > >Carlos. > > >-- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at skipthispartieee.org >Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia >---- >"Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like >the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 11 17:53:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 18:53:10 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found this today. Does anyone have a manual or any information on it? It looks very similar to this 9440 on E-bay Joe From mapleleafman at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 18:40:23 2005 From: mapleleafman at gmail.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:40:23 -0400 Subject: IBM 2501 card punch offer/salvage Message-ID: HI folks, I got an email this morning offering this piece of IBM equipment, 2501 card punch. Generally I forward these emails to my own list of collectors but for this particular piece I decided it needed a more general audience because the unit is in Newfoundland. No roads to our newest province so container shipping is required. Here's the whole text of the original email : _ Do you know of anyone who may be interested in the above?. It is currently in storage (garage) in Newfoundland. 1970-1980's. 2501 Card Punch. Also have a humidity reader used in early days to measure humidity in computer rooms. Thanks Marie _ Marie's email is : mhussey at hfx.eastlink.ca The humidistat sounds smaller, at least! If this isn't worth salvaging for anyone in our world, Marie mentioned in her email that she would junk it and save a part for old times sake, as she used to work with it. Maybe someone could give her an idea of what part(s) would be either interesting for historical purposes or maybe to replace parts that they require and would be smaller to ship. Marie lives in Nova Scotia so she can't exactly duck out to the garage to have a looksee either. Contact her directly as I don't check this email as often as I probably should. Brian Mahoney _______________ The list I maintain is here: http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/ If you want to be on this list please email me at : antique101 at hotmail.com NOT to the list or this email. Say please and thank you and give me a good email and we'll get along famously! _______________ From dancohoe at oxford.net Mon Apr 11 18:47:31 2005 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 19:47:31 -0400 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <003501c53ef0$d47074a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> > > > Jay West wrote: > > > The terminal is an old style Data General Dasher. Not sure > of the exact > > model, something like D210 comes to mind. But in any case, > it's a DG > > Dasher. > > > > If you find one, let me know. I've been looking for one for > some time to > > go on an Eclipse S/130 I have :) > > By strange coincidence, a student just offered me "an old DG/UX > system with a whole pile of terminals". One of his company's client > companies is looking to get rid of it. > > I told him to give them my email address and that I'd make sure it > all got picked up, but who knows if it'll come to anything.... > > > Doc Like Jay, I too am searching for a Dasher Terminal or three. If you find out more please let us know. Dan Cohoe From KParker at workcover.com Mon Apr 11 18:53:45 2005 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:23:45 +0930 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BDA6@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I'm glad you saved them. I can't imagine there are too many around. I have a Model 12 that has been "officially" upgraded to a Model 16B. Its an interesting mix - Model 12 look, Model 16B workings. Last I checked it wouldn't boot so that's a job for a rainy day on the bench. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Consultant WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 m: 0418 806 166 e: kparker at workcover.com w: www.workcover.com ++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kelly Leavitt Sent: Monday, 11 April 2005 5:05 AM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul Through the grapevine I heard about some computers that needed saving. Anyway, I made the 1.5 hour drive to Montvale, NJ and this is what I got for my effort: 3 TRS-80 model 12 computers, complete with keyboards. 2 Boxes of manuals 1 Box of miscellaneous 8" diskettes. I know there isn't a lot of interest in the model 12, but it is one of the very first computers I ever worked on. I'm glad that I was able to find 3 of them in great shape. If anyone knows of any of the "big iron" TRS-80/Tandy computers that need rescuing, let me know. I've hauled them back to New Jersey from as far away as Arkansas. Kelly ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 11 19:53:42 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:53:42 -0400 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com><16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com> <007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <425B1C16.2080506@atarimuseum.com> Doc, Keep me and Jay posted, I would certainly love one, possibly two of them. I guess that makes sense to see a DG Dasher since Atari had 2 DG Eclipse 8000-9600's in the HCD group. Curt Doc Shipley wrote: > Jay West wrote: > >> The terminal is an old style Data General Dasher. Not sure of the >> exact model, something like D210 comes to mind. But in any case, it's >> a DG Dasher. >> >> If you find one, let me know. I've been looking for one for some time >> to go on an Eclipse S/130 I have :) > > > By strange coincidence, a student just offered me "an old DG/UX > system with a whole pile of terminals". One of his company's client > companies is looking to get rid of it. > > I told him to give them my email address and that I'd make sure it > all got picked up, but who knows if it'll come to anything.... > > > Doc > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 11 19:54:44 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:54:44 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <425B1C54.1080500@atarimuseum.com> Midwest lite? So is it... All the same great vintage computers, but only half the calories ;-) Curt Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Announcing: > >***************************************************** >* * >* VCF / Midwest 1.0 "Lite" * >* * >* Sat-Sun, May 28-29 * >* Purdue University: West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 * >* * >***************************************************** > >Purdue's IEEE Computer Society will be sponsoring the first Midwest-area >Vintage Computer Festival on May 28-29. We are currently looking for >people who want to exhibit, and potential speakers for the event. If >you want to do either, or know someone who might, please have them get >in contact with us at vcfmw at computer-refuge.org. Also, if you are >planning on attending, please send mail, so we can get a rough >attendance count. > >More information on the event and the West Lafayette area are posted up >at: http://computer-refuge.org/vcfmw/ > >Back now to your regularly scheduled programming. > >Pat > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.5 - Release Date: 4/7/2005 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Apr 11 20:07:10 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:07:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun IPC Boot ROM In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D23@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: Does anyone have a spare Boot ROM for a Sparc IPC, with OpenPROM v2+ on it? Any of these should do, I think: 525-1191-01 525-1191-02 525-1191-03 Mine has an ancient version 1.6 (525-1085-03), which apparently doesn't support the TGX. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 11 20:07:49 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:07:49 -0400 Subject: anritsu m8104a data storage unit info? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050411210749.007ac770@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have any info on this unit? It's about 4" high, about 12" wide and about 15" deep and has a HP-IB port on the rear and what looks like two PCMCIA slots and a 3 1/2" disk drive on the front. Joe From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Apr 11 20:18:26 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:18:26 -0400 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... In-Reply-To: <003501c53ef0$d47074a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> References: <003501c53ef0$d47074a0$6501a8c0@dcohoe> Message-ID: <425B21E2.5090804@mdrconsult.com> Dan Cohoe wrote: > >> >>Jay West wrote: >> >> >>>The terminal is an old style Data General Dasher. Not sure >> >>of the exact >> >>>model, something like D210 comes to mind. But in any case, >> >>it's a DG >> >>>Dasher. >>> >>>If you find one, let me know. I've been looking for one for >> >>some time to >> >>>go on an Eclipse S/130 I have :) >> >> By strange coincidence, a student just offered me "an old DG/UX >>system with a whole pile of terminals". One of his company's client >>companies is looking to get rid of it. >> >> I told him to give them my email address and that I'd make sure it >>all got picked up, but who knows if it'll come to anything.... >> >> >> Doc > > > > Like Jay, I too am searching for a Dasher Terminal or three. If you find out > more please let us know. Will do so. Like Jay, I'll be a little surprised if this system is that old, but "one never knows, do one?" ;) I'll also tell the student that there's definite interest, which should decrease the probability of the whole deal falling through the cracks. Doc From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Apr 11 20:22:15 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:22:15 -0500 Subject: Help ID'ing this terminal... References: <200504101805.j3AI56TY012429@mwave.heeltoe.com><16986.35931.846000.138298@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <425A907F.4000105@atarimuseum.com><007801c53ea8$a07be870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425AB3BD.3030001@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <009801c53efe$10d75550$4c406b43@66067007> Le me know if you need help unloading any of these items. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: ; "and Off-Topic Posts" <"Discussion at mdrconsult.com"@cnc.net:On-Topiccctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 12:28 PM Subject: Re: Help ID'ing this terminal... > Jay West wrote: > >> The terminal is an old style Data General Dasher. Not sure of the exact >> model, something like D210 comes to mind. But in any case, it's a DG >> Dasher. >> >> If you find one, let me know. I've been looking for one for some time to >> go on an Eclipse S/130 I have :) > > By strange coincidence, a student just offered me "an old DG/UX system > with a whole pile of terminals". One of his company's client companies is > looking to get rid of it. > > I told him to give them my email address and that I'd make sure it all > got picked up, but who knows if it'll come to anything.... > > > Doc > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 21:23:19 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:23:19 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2005 5:03 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Announcing: > > ***************************************************** > * * > * VCF / Midwest 1.0 "Lite" * > * * > * Sat-Sun, May 28-29 * > * Purdue University: West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 * Ahhh!!! What an _awful_ weekend to pick! I'm sure it was easy to line up convention space, but most people have *plans* Memorial Day Weekend. I would love to be able to support a VCF, especially one that's 4 hours from my house. There's so much *stuff* I could bring to exhibit (not interested in selling much). As it is, I have to choose between a *huge* science fiction convention (MarCON) that I give science lectures at, and one of the biggest medieval events of the year, near Cincinnati. It doesn't help that I might be working in Madison, WI, by then (30 minutes further away than from Columbus, OH, where I live). I should know in the next week or so when my start date is. If I _am_ in Madison, West Lafayette is at least a lot closer, but then I have to pay for a hotel that otherwise wouldn't be in my budget. On the off chance that I will be available to attend VCF Midwest, what do the exhibit spaces look like? I would be able to bring DEC equipment (like a PDP-8/e perhaps, or at least an SBC-6120 with front panel), and I certainly would be able to bring a *number* of 1802 systems (Quest Elf, Micro/Elf, Poptronics Elf, Spare Time Gizmos Elf2K, MSI 88/e, Studio II, RCA terminal, COSMAC VIP) because they are small and fit in a rather small box. I also have a large quantity of larger DEC systems, but if I'm in Madison, I won't have that stuff with me. I plan to bring the 1802 stuff with me to work on when I'm not _at_ work, as well as the SBC-6120. The PDP-8/e is a real maybe, since I'm presently working on getting it running with a modern RX01 interface that attaches to the Posibus. I _might_ take that with me to Madison (-8/e and table-top RX02 plus small VT320-compatible terminal) If someone else is going to be there with lots of DEC equipment, I can certainly give mine a pass. Please let me know how the exhibits are shaping up in case the events of the next few weeks shape my Memorial Day weekend to the middle of Indiana. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 21:24:17 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:24:17 -0400 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival Midwest 1.0 In-Reply-To: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504111603.08880.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2005 5:03 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Announcing: > > ***************************************************** > * * > * VCF / Midwest 1.0 "Lite" * Whoops... that was supposed to go to Patrick Finnegan, not the list. Sorry. -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 11 21:37:21 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:37:21 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > I found this today. Does anyone have a manual or any information on it? > It looks very similar to this 9440 on E-bay > 5&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, but I remember is was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a data entry pad on the front. It was the most incredibly useful thing... you could program it to watch for a particular sequence of ascii characters, then start capturing data. One button would flip the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had a dual display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box built into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & async. Anyways... one thing to watch out for. As I've been halfway mildly looking for one, I've noticed a lot of the units on ebay (being different brands than what I used) are often wired via an external module for only certain types of connections. Be careful that the one you're looking at may ONLY do V.35. It may not do something more useful like RS232. Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 21:47:40 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:47:40 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2005 6:21 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5183306657 > > is not one, not two, but three MPI B51 floppy drives. Ohio > Scientific used this model in all of their "MF" (mini-floppy) > offerings. Nice. I used to have just a CP-4MF CPU board, but I gave it to Hans Franke on a visit years ago. I've always wanted to get my hands on some Ohio Scientific (they were based a couple hours from my house), but as close as I am, I've never seen any bits for sale around here. One of my childhood friends upgraded from a Quest Elf to a Superboard, and a family friend had a Challenger III, but that's it for OSI computers I've seen in person. :-/ -ethan From dogas at bellsouth.net Mon Apr 11 22:09:45 2005 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:09:45 -0400 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BDA6@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <004301c53f0d$25882010$68db3fd0@r2p0s6> > I'm glad you saved them. I can't imagine there are too many around. I > have a Model 12 that has been "officially" upgraded to a Model 16B. Its > an interesting mix - Model 12 look, Model 16B workings. Last I checked > it wouldn't boot so that's a job for a rainy day on the bench. > I drove from Jacksonville, Fl to Chicago, IL a few years agi for a station-wagon full of 6000, 16, and 16b systems, 8 in all, with one odd one if I recall, and some xenix and other software too. There was one beautifully complete 6000 with xenix, internal and external HDs. I've peddled a few of them including that one, and I know some need work, or could provide some needed parts if anyone's really stuck or can pick up personally or by proxy.. No extra keyboards though, two were borrowed and haven't returned yet.... I have one model 12, and a II or two (my main love on the big TRS80 side)...Hmmm, also got a few big boxes of those big brown 8" software manuals awaitng adpotion or tradeout.somehow... ;) - Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net From CCTalk at catcorner.org Mon Apr 11 22:13:37 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:13:37 -0400 Subject: FW: IBM Series 1 Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D2E@mail.catcorner.org> > I have the chance to rescue and IBM Series/1 minicomputer. Any good > references out there for these? Anyone on the east coast interested in > rescuing one? It includes an 8" and a 14" winchester drive in racks. > > Kelly From us21090 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 11 22:17:19 2005 From: us21090 at yahoo.com (Scott Austin) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value? In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050412031719.23000.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> /* coming out of the shadows.... */ I'm planning on exhibiting my MOS Kim-1 at the Trenton Computer Festival (http://www.tcf-nj.org) and it occurred to me that I don't know what this computer is worth (whatever "worth" means). **** I'm not interested in selling it **** My Kim-1 works and is a Rev B MOS unit, with original blue-cover manuals (as well as home brew case and a home brew 2k memory expansion). The only data point I have is a recent ebay auction, where 2 working Kim-1s, nice enclosures, Kim Extender Interface, 4 memory cards, S100 breadboarding card, issues of "Micro", etc went for $642. The item description doesn't mention Rev #, or even whether its a MOS or Commodore (though the photo shows *white* manuals). So... roughly $300 for a Kim-1? Thanks! Scott __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 22:28:05 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:28:05 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2005 10:37 PM, Jay West wrote: > Joe wrote... > > I found this today. Does anyone have a manual or any information on it? > > It looks very similar to this 9440 on E-bay > > > 5&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> > > Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I > did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and > absolutely lived with a datascope. That reminds me of the HP line of protocol analyzers (HP 4951A/B 4952C...) I used to live with one of those, too, when I was doing SNA and Bisync for a living (prior to 1984). I don't know anything about this brand or what it would take to hook this one up to anything but a V.35 connecton (useful in itself), but if anyone is going to do any serious serial hacking, I cannot recommend these sorts of tools strongly enough. They would be perfect for, say, reverse-engineering a poorly documented serial protocol between two devices, or, as we used ours, for verifying that one end or the other is really adhering to the published protocol. The HP line also has a menu-driven programming language that is barely sophisticated to emulate an IBM Mainframe and communications controller (CPU + 37x5) initiating an SNA session through the bind and up to idle RR chatter (1Hz ACKs with sequence counts that fill a channel that isn't actively pumping data). _That_ was incredibly useful for debugging some SNA product issues we had, as we could tweak individual bits of our binds to see empirically what the effects were on our products (we purchased the core code rather than writing it all in-house, so we were often forced to poke it from strange angles to see how it wobbled). These could also be useful for debugging a low-speed connection (well under T1-speeds) between a router and an ISP. They also make good password sniffers ;-) presuming one can wedge in between the VT100 and the host (no, we never really did that at work, but we did show folks how easy it is to do). Lots of fun, but I suppose a modern PC could do just as well, presuming there's an app that's designed to capture and display whatever goes by the serial port. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 11 22:42:52 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:42:52 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <0IET006XWEBEOLJF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? > From: "Jay West" >Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I >did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and >absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, but I remember is >was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a data entry pad on the front. >It was the most incredibly useful thing... you could program it to watch for >a particular sequence of ascii characters, then start capturing data. One >button would flip the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had >a dual display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive >on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box built >into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & async. I happen to have a Atlantic Research Inc, serial datascope. It contains several boards [std bus z80, rom/ram card, CRT5027 based crt controller Card] however no manual. Someday I'll track down at least a schematic and fix the CRT. The boards say T-bar on them so the instument may even be from another company with the ACI label. It would be fun to get it operational. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 11 22:44:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:44:57 -0400 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul In-Reply-To: <004301c53f0d$25882010$68db3fd0@r2p0s6> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E26162301B4BDA6@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <004301c53f0d$25882010$68db3fd0@r2p0s6> Message-ID: On Apr 11, 2005 11:09 PM, Mike wrote: > I drove from Jacksonville, Fl to Chicago, IL a few years agi for a > station-wagon full of 6000, 16, and 16b systems, 8 in all, with one odd one > if I recall, and some xenix and other software too. There was one > beautifully complete 6000 with xenix, internal and external HDs. Nice. We used to have a Model III and IV in the "computer lab" at my high school, and either a 12 or 16 in the teachers' lounge (it _did_ have a 5MB HD, but I never got to play on it), but I was in college when they pitched all that stuff out. I don't know if it went in the dumpster, or if a student got it, but I _hope_ someone took it home. I do know they replaced the closet with the III and IV with a classroom-sized space *full* of Rainbows. :-P Those probably got pitched, too. No idea what they have now, but I'm sure it's a stack of beige boxes running something uninspired. -ethan From cctech at randy482.com Tue Apr 12 00:00:48 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 00:00:48 -0500 Subject: Don Maslin's Archive / UCSD Pascal adaptable system References: <20050408.193430.-273829.0.paul-pentecost7@juno.com> <20050410161602.2b711967.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001401c53f1c$9b604920$c63cd7d1@randylaptop> I have an incomplete UCSD pascal disk set. Don had it listed on the DynaSig archive. Does anyone know if Don's Archive was saved or does anyone else have a UCSD Adaptable disk set for the 8080/Z80 (either CP/M or full Adaptable). I am also looking for other p-system disks. I either have or have access to: PC/MS-DOS Hosted DEC RAINBOW TERAK APPLE-II APPLE MAC NorthStar 6502 Adaptable Osborne-II TI-99/4A Partial CP/M Adaptable Thanks, Randy From leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 12 00:08:39 2005 From: leeedavison at yahoo.co.uk (lee davison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 06:08:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: anritsu m8104a data storage unit info? Message-ID: <20050412050839.84069.qmail@web25008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> > Does anyone have any info on this unit? Going from memory this is one of the add ons for the Anritsu spectrum analyser range. The slots were for 'personality' modules that added functions to the basic analyser and the disk drive was for data logging. I used Anritsu analysers quite a bit. They were, at only twice the cost of the Landrover Discovery I used to carry them around in, a lot cheaper than the HP equivalents. Can't remember if the slots were PCMCIA or not. Lee. . Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Tue Apr 12 00:23:45 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 07:23:45 +0200 Subject: IBM 2501 card punch offer/salvage References: Message-ID: <001e01c53f1f$ccb83ed0$2101a8c0@finans> The 2501 is a card reader. Normally they were shipped as 300 cards per minute readers, but 600 was also available. When it was bolted to a 1442 printer (IIRC) and a control unit, it could be used as an RJE terminal : the 2780 (or was it the 3780) Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Mahoney" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 1:40 AM Subject: IBM 2501 card punch offer/salvage > HI folks, > > I got an email this morning offering this piece of IBM equipment, 2501 > card punch. Generally I forward these emails to my own list of > collectors but for this particular piece I decided it needed a more > general audience because the unit is in Newfoundland. No roads to our > newest province so container shipping is required. Here's the whole > text of the original email : > _ > Do you know of anyone who may be interested in the above?. It is > currently in storage (garage) in Newfoundland. 1970-1980's. 2501 Card > Punch. Also have a humidity reader used in early days to measure > humidity in computer rooms. > Thanks > Marie > _ > > > Marie's email is : mhussey at hfx.eastlink.ca > > The humidistat sounds smaller, at least! If this isn't worth > salvaging for anyone in our world, Marie mentioned in her email that > she would junk it and save a part for old times sake, as she used to > work with it. Maybe someone could give her an idea of what part(s) > would be either interesting for historical purposes or maybe to > replace parts that they require and would be smaller to ship. Marie > lives in Nova Scotia so she can't exactly duck out to the garage to > have a looksee either. > > Contact her directly as I don't check this email as often as I probably should. > > Brian Mahoney > > _______________ > > The list I maintain is here: http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/ > If you want to be on this list please email me at : antique101 at hotmail.com > NOT to the list or this email. Say please and thank you and give me a > good email and we'll get along famously! > > _______________ > > From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Tue Apr 12 01:12:54 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:12:54 -0700 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks Message-ID: <425B66E6.4020904@ix.netcom.com> Some interesting items on eBay today for the PDP-8 enthusiast. Billy http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279053&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279019&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279027&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW From news at computercollector.com Tue Apr 12 01:21:13 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:21:13 -0400 Subject: Exciting news about ClassicCmp and the Vintage Computer Festival Message-ID: <200504120619.j3C6JTbr018209@dewey.classiccmp.org> Hi cctalk'ers, I don't usually send list-wide updates, but this is a special case. Without further comment, here are two articles from this week's issue of Computer Collector Newsletter. - Evan ----------------------------------------- New: The ClassicCmp Knowledge Base An extensive knowledge base is being added to classiccmp.org, the web presence behind the popular cctalk and cctech mailing lists. Users will populate the database with their own submissions, such as system information, technical tips, and advice for finding, repairing, restoring, displaying, and storaging vintage computers. All entries will be moderated, but registration won't be required. The database will be searchable by category and keyword. The database is located at http://www.classiccmp.org/kb and an email interface is being developed. There are already some starter entries based on the mailing list FAQ and independent contributions. Comments to these entries are encouraged, although the knowledge base is meant to augment, not replace, the mailing lists. - Jay West, classiccmp.org moderator --------------------------------------- VCF changes and new shows being planned Changes at the Vintage Computer Festival are creating new regional editions, starting with VCF Midwest 1.0 next month. We reported on Jan. 24 that VCF Midwest 1.0 was tentatively planned for late May at Purdue University. The details we expected for the following issue didn't materialize, but now the weekend of May 28-29 is a near-certainty, show planner Patrick Finnegan said. Whether it's a one- or two-day event is not yet determined. It will be held at Purdue's Stewart Center. (We'll share more details here are soon as they are available.) VCF Midwest 2.0, in 2006, may be held in the St. Louis, Missouri area. VCF East 3.0, originally planned for this summer in the Boston area, probably will be delayed until spring 2006. It may be organized by MARCH - Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists - which is a new club based online at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ . VCF Europa 6.0 remains unchanged. It will be held April 30-May 1 in the Munich, Germany area. See http://www.vcfe.org/E/ for details. Our own Sellam Ismail, who founded the VCF in 1997, will continue to personally run the main VCF event each fall in Silicon Valley. - Evan Koblentz, editor ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From news at computercollector.com Tue Apr 12 01:24:00 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:24:00 -0400 Subject: LOL ... Scooped by Patrick himself! Message-ID: <200504120622.j3C6MJhT018240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Thanks to a glitch in my list management software. Doh! Anyway, the actual classiccmp news should shake things up around here. :) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 01:25:08 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 02:25:08 -0400 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks In-Reply-To: <425B66E6.4020904@ix.netcom.com> References: <425B66E6.4020904@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2005 2:12 AM, Billy Pettit wrote: > Some interesting items on eBay today for the PDP-8 enthusiast. > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279053&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Interesting assortment, but unless one needs lots of lamp drivers (W040), dunno how useful most of those are. Without looking up each listed handle number, I can only take a stab, but ISTR most of the numbers out of my Straight-8s don't match. To be sure, some do, but I see lots of unfamiliar handles in the auction picture. > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279019&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Hmm... one wonders where the rest of the -8/S went. Probably part of it to the previous auction... For anyone here that _has_ an -8/S, they probably aren't looking for the light board, but they might be looking for bulbs. Shame that one looks like it's been sat on. Unless someone _really_ needs to replace the console light board on an otherwise intact 08/S, I can't see how that auction is going anywhere. > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279027&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW AX08... the closeup looks like Negibus notation. Can't tell much more than that from the limited pictures. -ethan From bert at brothom.nl Tue Apr 12 04:30:27 2005 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:30:27 +0100 Subject: Old Chip Info? In-Reply-To: <20050411164718.2029B2C00C@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050411164718.2029B2C00C@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <425B9533.1090702@brothom.nl> Rick Bensene wrote: > Anyone out there have any old TI databooks that they might find this > old device in? The date codes on all of the parts in the machine > range from 7132 to 7144, so it's all mid-to-late '71 timeframe for > manufacture, > if that helps. According to one reference I found, the chip was introduced > in 1970. I'm not sure if I can help, but I have access to some TI databooks from late '70s, early '80s. I did have a look and they did not mention your chip. However, perhaps its helpfull to have the pinout of similar chips, as they might have identical pinouts. Bert From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Apr 12 03:44:27 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:44:27 +0200 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks In-Reply-To: <425B66E6.4020904@ix.netcom.com> References: <425B66E6.4020904@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20050412084427.GD4965@lug-owl.de> On Mon, 2005-04-11 23:12:54 -0700, Billy Pettit wrote in message <425B66E6.4020904 at ix.netcom.com>: > http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5185279027&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Is this already available in scanned form? MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 12 06:36:35 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:36:35 +0000 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) Message-ID: <1113305795.3560.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Chap at Manchester uni has three Apollo 340 machines (plus assorted spares by the sounds of it) which are heading to the skip today. I've been trying to save these for a couple of weeks but it's just too far away for anyone at the museum to make a dedicated trip to collect them, and none of our people get up to that part of the country very often. Maybe someone local can rescue them instead (or even can hold them on our behalf for a bit!) Shout if so anyway and I can give you contact details - maybe they can be held in a room somewhere for a few days if someone's definitely coming to pick them up. These are early Apollos so it'd be nice to save at least one (earliest ones we have are DN3500 and DN3000 machines) cheers Jules From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue Apr 12 07:04:51 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:04:51 +0100 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <1113305795.3560.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001801c53f57$d626d160$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Let me know. I can possibly take a trip on Saturday morning/afternoon. What sort of size are we looking @? I have a golf estate. Regards Charles -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 12 April 2005 12:37 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) Chap at Manchester uni has three Apollo 340 machines (plus assorted spares by the sounds of it) which are heading to the skip today. I've been trying to save these for a couple of weeks but it's just too far away for anyone at the museum to make a dedicated trip to collect them, and none of our people get up to that part of the country very often. Maybe someone local can rescue them instead (or even can hold them on our behalf for a bit!) Shout if so anyway and I can give you contact details - maybe they can be held in a room somewhere for a few days if someone's definitely coming to pick them up. These are early Apollos so it'd be nice to save at least one (earliest ones we have are DN3500 and DN3000 machines) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.6 - Release Date: 11/04/2005 From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 08:16:35 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:16:35 +0100 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <001801c53f57$d626d160$0500a8c0@gamemachine> References: <1113305795.3560.16.camel@weka.localdomain> <001801c53f57$d626d160$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Message-ID: <26c11a64050412061652ab690e@mail.gmail.com> On 4/12/05, Charles Blackburn wrote: > Let me know. I can possibly take a trip on Saturday morning/afternoon. > What sort of size are we looking @? I have a golf estate. > > Regards > Charles > Show off, I don't even have a garden ;) Dan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 12 07:38:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:38:29 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:37 PM 4/11/05 -0500, Jay wrote: >Joe wrote... >> I found this today. Does anyone have a manual or any information on it? >> It looks very similar to this 9440 on E-bay >> > 5&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> > >Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I can't believe that you don't already have one if you want one. They show up all the time around here. I've passed up a lot of the simple ones (Atlantic Research, etc). This one does everything you mention below and then some. It has a full keyboard and can emulater a VT-100 or simple ASCII terminal. I'll probably use it for that most of the time. It also has the menu driven programming language, that's the main thing that I want a manual for. Cost = $0.00. No cables with it but it looks like it uses standard DB-25 cables for RS-232. It has a ribbon cable connector to connect to the V.35 connector box (you can see one in the E-bay picture). I didn't get that either but I don't have anything that uses V.35. Joe I >did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and >absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, but I remember is >was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a data entry pad on the front. >It was the most incredibly useful thing... you could program it to watch for >a particular sequence of ascii characters, then start capturing data. One >button would flip the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had >a dual display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive >on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box built >into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & async. > >Anyways... one thing to watch out for. As I've been halfway mildly looking >for one, I've noticed a lot of the units on ebay (being different brands >than what I used) are often wired via an external module for only certain >types of connections. Be careful that the one you're looking at may ONLY do >V.35. It may not do something more useful like RS232. > >Jay > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 12 07:42:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:42:33 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <0IET006XWEBEOLJF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050412084233.00b45100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:42 PM 4/11/05 -0400, Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? >> From: "Jay West" > >>Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I >>did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and >>absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, but I remember is >>was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a data entry pad on the front. >>It was the most incredibly useful thing... you could program it to watch for >>a particular sequence of ascii characters, then start capturing data. One >>button would flip the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had >>a dual display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive >>on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box built >>into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & async. > >I happen to have a Atlantic Research Inc, serial datascope. It contains >several boards [std bus z80, rom/ram card, CRT5027 based crt controller Card] >however no manual. Someday I'll track down at least a schematic and fix >the CRT. The boards say T-bar on them so the instument may even be from >another company with the ACI label. It would be fun to get it operational. Steve Robertson has a working Atlantic Research datascope. He picked it up at the Orlando Hamfest a couple of years ago and I THINK he got the manual for it also. You might check with him. Joe > > > >Allison > From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 12 08:32:27 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:32:27 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <009101c53f64$12928980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I can't believe that you don't already have one if > you want one. They show up all the time around here. Don't wait. Ethernet and USB have been in _common_ use for some time now. in a couple of years all the golden age RS232 protocol analyzers will be thrown out. John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 08:41:22 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:41:22 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006a01c53f65$50c6a690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > I can't believe that you don't already have one if you want one. They > show up all the time around here. I've passed up a lot of the simple ones > (Atlantic Research, etc). Simple, because I haven't had a specific need for one. It's more of a "someday I'll pick one up just because they are neat", so I haven't gone out of my way to pick one up. For hooking up a terminal, they generally aren't required for troubleshooting that. Now when I get to hooking up a serial link between my HP2000 and the PDP-8E with custom transfer code on each end, then I'll probably get more agressive about finding one. I feel about datascopes much like people probably feel about logic analyzers. Often you can find the problem with other simpler tools, but when you have an odd problem you can't get your head around, hook it up and the problem will usually stare out at you very clearly from the screen :) Jay From vrs at msn.com Tue Apr 12 08:43:43 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 06:43:43 -0700 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks References: <425B66E6.4020904@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > Interesting assortment, but unless one needs lots of lamp drivers > (W040), dunno how useful most of those are. Without looking up each > listed handle number, I can only take a stab, but ISTR most of the > numbers out of my Straight-8s don't match. To be sure, some do, but I > see lots of unfamiliar handles in the auction picture. Those lamp drivers do seem to pile up :-). The auction reminds me of the pile of Rxxx, Sxxx, and Wxxx that I have here. > Unless someone _really_ needs to replace the console light board on an > otherwise intact 08/S, I can't see how that auction is going anywhere. I could see someone doing a project like Henk's, where an emulator is placed behind the switches and lights. Even if it were only the face plate, it's a running start at an 8/S emulator :-). > AX08... the closeup looks like Negibus notation. Can't tell much more > than that from the limited pictures. I've been curious about the AX08; maybe someone will buy it and scan it. The price is down in the impulse buy range, so there is hope for the auction :-). Vince From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 08:47:05 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:47:05 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009101c53f64$12928980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <007a01c53f66$1d95fc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> John wrote... > Don't wait. Ethernet and USB have been in _common_ > use for some time now. in a couple of years all the golden > age RS232 protocol analyzers will be thrown out. Yeah, I guess you're probably right there. In that case, perhaps someone can guide me. I've seen scads of HP models on ebay. However, often the description isn't clear enough to determine if the unit just supports sync, or just async, or just X.25, etc. etc. Having a penchant for HP gear (have you noticed?hehe), does anyone know what model of HP protocol analyzer is the right one for RS232, sync & async? Some of the ones I've seen there APPEAR to be very specific for things I wouldn't want and I'm just not up on the HP models of this. Thanks for any tips! Jay West From news at computercollector.com Tue Apr 12 09:36:58 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:36:58 -0400 Subject: Intel offers $10,000 for Moore's Law magazine Message-ID: <200504121435.j3CEZqHI022319@dewey.classiccmp.org> http://news.com.com/Intel+offers+10%2C000+for+Moores+Law+magazine/2100-1006_ 3-5663120.html?tag=cd.top ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 09:41:20 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 09:41:20 -0500 Subject: new classiccmp.org service Message-ID: <009601c53f6d$cf7602d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> As many of you have probably seen, the ClassicCmp KnowledgeBase has been announced in Evan's Computer Collector Newsletter. It is my sincere hope that this feature will be of use, not only for seasoned collectors but also for "newbies" just getting in to the hobby (or most wonderfully, maybe pushing a bystander to finally get into the hobby). The knowledgebase software that I chose has some great features, but it also has some bugs. Most notably the penchant for apostrophe's in articles to randomly be escaped as \'. The bugs will be worked out eventually. Note that I have been in contact with the author of the software, and an email interface IS on the schedule of todo's. It will likely be along the lines of sending an email to a special address with a body containing "show articles", and a list of articles with categories gets emailed back. Then you could email something like "show article xxxxx" and get that article is emailed back to you. You could also submit articles and comments via email in an automated fashion. There is no timetable for the email interface, but I wanted to let people know that it won't be forgotten. Of course, the web interface is already there :) This knowledgebase is NOT going to be a replacement for the ClassicCmp lists. Rather, it is meant to augment them as a repository of the somewhat frequent "golden nuggets of wisdom" that appear on the list in a form that is more usable than the archives. In addition, it is meant to keep certain subjects from being rehashed over and over again. When someone new brings up "how do I.....", we can point them to "see knowledge base article XXXX". I want to keep the knowledge base clean (and ensure it doesnt edge into competing with the list) by being quite rigorous about the editing/moderation of submitted articles. In the moderation process I want to make sure that the "comment" feature does not become "conversational". Think of it more as a reference guide, not a novel. It is my hope than when a wonderful tidbit of information appears on the list, that the person posting that will consider writing up a short article for the knowledge base as well. Bear in mind that articles do not need to be large multi-paragraph writeups (although it's great when they are). They can be as brief as a few sentences, or as long as many paragraphs. The topic can be extremely general, or very specific in focus. Feel free to comment (add-to) or submit new articles, even if a similar one is already there. Don't feel you have to be an electronics expert to submit an article. For example, we could use an article about storage of systems to keep mold/pests out. We could use an article on tips for building shelves for manuals, cable management, etc. And yes, we could use an article about basic switching mode power supply troubleshooting. There have been past posts to the list that I would be happy to write up for the knowledge base, however I'm slightly leary of doing that because I think the person who takes the time to write up the knowledge base article should get credit for it (their name as the poster). But of course I don't want to post an article of text that someone ELSE posted to the list and "take credit" for it. I'd just as soon see the person who posted the info to the list write up the knowledgebase article. But perhaps I will post things from the list with both names, the article writer and the information provider as an alternative. The knowledgebase feature grew out of my current task of rewriting the list FAQ. As I was going through it, it occured to me that the FAQ should really be about the list specifically, and not about classic computing in general- ie.. a list FAQ, not a computer FAQ. The old faq did have some good computer faq info, so instead of including that information in the list FAQ I created the knowledgebase and put that information there. Now that that is done, I can go back and revisit the written FAQ and make it specific to just the list which I feel is more appropriate. And yes, you can expect some other new features on the ClassicCmp.org website soon, there's quite a few more interesting things in the way of new services coming up there in the not to distant future. They are currently being worked on and will be announced when complete! They will also be simultaneously announced in the Computer Collector Newsletter. The ClassicCmp Knowledge base is currently available at http://www.classiccmp.org/kb but links will be added to it from the main page at some point soon. Kind regards... Jay West From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Tue Apr 12 09:45:34 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:45:34 -0600 Subject: Today's TRS-80 haul Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010B6C@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> >Message: 25 >Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 23:09:45 -0400 >From: "Mike" >Subject: Re: Today's TRS-80 haul >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: <004301c53f0d$25882010$68db3fd0 at r2p0s6> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> I'm glad you saved them. I can't imagine there are too many around. I >> have a Model 12 that has been "officially" upgraded to a Model 16B. Its >> an interesting mix - Model 12 look, Model 16B workings. Last I checked >> it wouldn't boot so that's a job for a rainy day on the bench. >> >I drove from Jacksonville, Fl to Chicago, IL a few years agi for a >station-wagon full of 6000, 16, and 16b systems, 8 in all, with one odd one >if I recall, and some xenix and other software too. There was one >beautifully complete 6000 with xenix, internal and external HDs. I've >peddled a few of them including that one, and I know some need work, or >could provide some needed parts if anyone's really stuck or can pick up >personally or by proxy.. No extra keyboards though, two were borrowed and >haven't returned yet.... > I have one model 12, and a II or two (my main love on the big TRS80 >side)...Hmmm, also got a few big boxes of those big brown 8" software >manuals awaitng adpotion or tradeout.somehow... >;) >- Mike: dogas at bellsouth.net It's nice to see that there are other fans of the big silver (and white) TRS-80 boxes out there. I ran a bulletin board with a Mod II for a couple of years in the mid '80s, and despite the fact that it was noisy and clunky, it never crashed or went down. I've got one that I fixed up with a good 8" disk drive, have another that needs some work, have the disk expansion box and a 15Mb hard disk that is waiting to go on line. Have some basic big brown manuals but am always looking to adopt or trade more ;-) Also looking for newer versions of TRSDOS 2 or II as all I have is 2a and I don't think it handles hard disks or conversion to 5.25 HD disks (want to do that so I don't have to listen to the 8 inchers spin all the time, boy were those Mod II's noisy!) GF Gary Fisher E:gfisher at tristonecapital.com This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 10:07:02 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:07:02 -0500 Subject: credits for knowledgebase faq entries Message-ID: <00a201c53f71$48949ac0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Oh, by the way - some may consider this not terribly important, but I like to be a stickler for such things. I put some initial entries into the ClassicCmp knowlegebase straight from the FAQ. I also contributed an article or two of my own. The entries that I took from the old ClassicCmp FAQ were posted with an author of "Jay West (FAQ)", and the ones I wrote myself have an author of just "Jay West". In the original FAQ, there was a list of credits to people who came up with some of that information. I would like to put a "Credits" link on the knowledge base website, that lists and thus gives credit to these people. I am not an HTML programmer, I know barely enough to change single lines of existing HTML. Would someone with basic HTML skills be willing to create a credits hyperlink on the knowledgebase site, that presents a separate page listing those people? If so, please contact me off-list. Regards, Jay West From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Apr 12 10:38:36 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:38:36 +0200 Subject: CI accessories available In-Reply-To: <16986.50733.316000.171095@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20050411200251.5e495085.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <16986.50733.316000.171095@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050412173836.2ecba220.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 14:47:09 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > I didn't know there is any such thing as "thin CI cable". The only CI > cable I've ever seen is medium thick -- halfway between RG58 and RG8, > usually blue, and *very* stiff. Would be interresting to get exact speacs for this big cable. > Considering the bandwidth of CI, it's probably rather unforgiving of > cheap cable. My SC08 Users Guide says a Star Coupler has a bandwith of 1 to 100 MHz. 100 MHz is no big problem with RG58, if the cables are not that long. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 12 10:51:01 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 08:51:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII art spam Message-ID: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> Spammers have "invented" ASCII art. There's three curious things about this. One, it of course gets through text-matching filters. Two, it retroactively ruinates real ASCII art (if this catches on, seems most unlikely). Three, is there a drawing program for this? Tiny fragment follows: ., ,; .r, @nt psx tma jn ym, Bwg pgB WrW ihutqnb: ilnqcWlh Woytvu @fcajiS bu tn ves jx qo. Wka. ckt rkb bw; @qS lqc osq WsW 8kdhxu: so sr WgZ Zmfqhs@ jt .je WaW ywW:: um, ap go WoW svh,i 0oW ScokmS WvW oq so huZ rim WkW pnB 0uZ pjvf caq yxdjqotew murWhcoo abl rydgadhfq0 , ,:;i : jf , ,;i .: Ztc jpr nwrls. From dhbarr at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 10:55:14 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:55:14 -0500 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> References: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> Message-ID: There are many, many, MANY programs that do such things. It felt like a matter of time, and I disagree with you that it won't catch on, sadly :/ I predict hypertext ascii art links, with stylesheets to turn off the underlining. -dhbarr the saddened. On Apr 12, 2005 10:51 AM, Tom Jennings wrote: > Spammers have "invented" ASCII art. > > There's three curious things about this. One, it of course gets > through text-matching filters. Two, it retroactively ruinates > real ASCII art (if this catches on, seems most unlikely). Three, > is there a drawing program for this? > > Tiny fragment follows: > > ., ,; .r, > @nt psx tma > jn ym, > Bwg pgB WrW ihutqnb: ilnqcWlh Woytvu @fcajiS > bu tn ves jx qo. Wka. ckt rkb bw; @qS > lqc osq WsW 8kdhxu: so sr WgZ Zmfqhs@ > jt .je WaW ywW:: um, ap go WoW svh,i 0oW > ScokmS WvW oq so huZ rim WkW pnB 0uZ > pjvf caq yxdjqotew murWhcoo abl rydgadhfq0 > , ,:;i : jf , ,;i .: > Ztc jpr > nwrls. > From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 12 10:55:58 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:55:58 -0400 Subject: LaserWriter Plus In-Reply-To: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> References: <20050407165704.Q32125@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <425BEF8E.6060200@sbcglobal.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >>The 4L and 4ML are stripped-down single-user-oriented printers, not >>big modular monsters like the IIISi, 4MX, etc. The internal boards >>for the 4L and 4ML are entirely different (but the engine is the >>same). There is no PostScript SIMM in a 4ML; everything is soldered >>to the board, plus the 4L has parallel only, and the 4ML has parallel >>plus an 8-pin-DIN AppleTalk/LocalTalk connector. > > > Which sub-model of 4 DOES take the Postscript SIMM? > I think you're thinking of the 4MP. 3 (or is it 4?) 72 pin SIMM slots, and the PS on another SIMM. You pull the PS SIMM to turn it into a 4P -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From cb at mythtech.net Tue Apr 12 10:56:42 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:56:42 -0400 Subject: ASCII art spam Message-ID: >There's three curious things about this. One, it of course gets >through text-matching filters. Two, it retroactively ruinates >real ASCII art (if this catches on, seems most unlikely). Three, >is there a drawing program for this? The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell checking. If more then a certain number of words don't match the dictionary file, then it is rejected. This does double duty, helps filter out spam using letter substitution, and also helps filter out people who can't be bothered with spell check (including all those teens that type like they are chatting via text messaging). :-) -chris From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue Apr 12 11:02:20 2005 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:02:20 +0200 Subject: FW: IBM Series 1 Message-ID: <000601c53f79$021a5500$8206a8c0@dordt.nl> Hi Kelly, > I have the chance to rescue and IBM Series/1 minicomputer. Any good > references out there for these? Anyone on the east coast interested in > rescuing one? It includes an 8" and a 14" winchester drive in racks. > > Kelly Is it possible for you to check if this source has _any_ IBM System/7 items ? (S/7 was the pre-succesor of the Series/1) See http://home.hccnet.nl/h.j.stegeman/ Regards Henk From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 12 11:04:33 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:04:33 -0500 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> References: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050412110011.04c87f70@mail> At 10:51 AM 4/12/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >Spammers have "invented" ASCII art. >There's three curious things about this. One, it of course gets >through text-matching filters. Two, it retroactively ruinates >real ASCII art (if this catches on, seems most unlikely). Three, >is there a drawing program for this? I'd seen old low-res pin-up art in spam more than a year ago, and these text versions lately. It's probably hand-made. As non-words, I think it would trigger some spam filters. They don't seem to care whether they're making fixed-width art or using variable width fonts. I've seen some that's quite messed up in Eudora. Any old ASCII art program would do it, no? I think there are tools that can turn bitmaps to ASCII, so why not? - John From micheladam at theedge.ca Tue Apr 12 11:35:04 2005 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (micheladam at theedge.ca) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:35:04 -0600 Subject: ASCII art spam Message-ID: <79419939908.425ba458@theedge.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: chris Date: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:56 am Subject: Re: ASCII art spam > The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell > checking. > If more then a certain number of words don't match the dictionary > file, > then it is rejected. > > This does double duty, helps filter out spam using letter > substitution, > and also helps filter out people who can't be bothered with spell > check > (including all those teens that type like they are chatting via > text > messaging). :-) > > -chris > > > Dit is waar het... uiteenvalt C'est o? il tombe en morceaux... Dieses ist, wohin es auseinander... f?llt ???? ????? ???? ?????????... Ci? ? dove cade a parte... ???... ????????????? Isto ? o lugar aonde cai distante... ??? ???? ??? ?????????? ?????... Aqu? es adonde baja aparte... This is where it falls apart... Michel Adam From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 12 11:39:12 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:39:12 -0400 Subject: ASCII art spam References: Message-ID: <05d101c53f7e$291fb460$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell > checking. If more then a certain number of words don't match > the dictionary file, then it is rejected. There have been some posts to this list with more than one typo per line average. I'd hate to see them go. yeah. Bottomline, posters: the less you care, the less I care. John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 11:47:44 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:47:44 -0500 Subject: knowledgebase request Message-ID: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I think Sellam (and others) should put together a quick article on appraisals (there is a section for that in the KnowledgeBase), so that the frequent "Ebay sucks/rocks" threads can be squelched once and for all ;) Jay West From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 12 11:54:52 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:54:52 -0400 Subject: Intel offers $10,000 for Moore's Law magazine References: <200504121435.j3CEZqHI022319@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <05ee01c53f80$59885d80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Intel offers $10,000 for Moore's Law magazine In one weeks time will be the 40th anniversary of this 'Electronics' magazine article FYI. http://wantitnow.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?WantItNowView&adid=6955863859 something new to me from ebay (Want It Now) John A. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 12 11:11:35 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:11:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504121715.NAA08150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell > checking. If more then a certain number of words don't match the > dictionary file, then it is rejected. Men det har problemer med annen spraaker. Si le dictionnaire ne contient pas la langue dans laquelle le courriel est ecrit.... [Translation: But it has problems with other languages. If the dictionary doesn't contain the language in which the email is written....] Or if the email contains, say, a befunge program, rather than any natural-language text. For example, here's a program that (allegedly - I haven't checked) computes square roots: v>00p10p>00g:10g\/v ^:&< |:-1p00/2+< >93*^ >00g.@ /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Apr 12 12:31:22 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:31:22 -0400 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks Message-ID: <200504121731.j3CHVMv07994@drs-c4i.com> >> AX08... the closeup looks like Negibus notation. Can't tell much more >> than that from the limited pictures. > > >I've been curious about the AX08; maybe someone will buy it and scan it. >The price is down in the impulse buy range, so there is hope for the auction >:-). > I have a bid in and I will be scanning it and putting it on my site if I win. Since I have an AX08 with a fault in it I would really like to win it. I had gotten a copy of the manual which is on my site but the schematics were copied folded so were unuseable. I was unable to get a good copy of them. I got the point plot working but not the A/D. Thanks, David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. Have any PDP-8 stuff you're willing to part with? From cb at mythtech.net Tue Apr 12 12:37:47 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:37:47 -0400 Subject: ASCII art spam Message-ID: >> The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell >> checking. If more then a certain number of words don't match the >> dictionary file, then it is rejected. > >Men det har problemer med annen spraaker. Si le dictionnaire ne >contient pas la langue dans laquelle le courriel est ecrit.... You people REALLY need to start paying attention to emoticons and learn to read the sarcasm between the lines. :-p The point was a joke. Collateral damage causing loss of email with spelling errors was supposed to be a good thing. Following the same JOKE logic, loss of any email that I can't understand (including other languages, mathematical formulas, or most everything Tony Duell talks about since it all goes way over my head), may also be good thing. ;-) Besides have you interacted with anyone under 18 via email recently? Maybe filtering on spelling errors IS a good thing! =:-O :-) (watch out for those emoticons, they are the only way in email to point out jokes and sarcasm). -ps: this email was spell checked by Claris Emailer 2.0v3 that doesn't know "email", "spam", "emoticons", "Duell", "ps", and "2.0v3" are all acceptable. -chris From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 12:41:27 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:41:27 -0400 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks In-Reply-To: <200504121731.j3CHVMv07994@drs-c4i.com> References: <200504121731.j3CHVMv07994@drs-c4i.com> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2005 1:31 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > I have a bid in and I will be scanning it and putting it on my site if I win. > Since I have an AX08 with a fault in it I would really like to win it. Good luck with winning. I was not planning on bidding because I do _not_ have an AX08. Do you have any photos on your site of the innards of your AX08? I'm curious what modules go into it. Someday, I'd like to have a suitable output device (and possibly an EAE) for an appropriate -8 so I could set up a Spacewar machine. I've often mused what it would take to implement suitable analog output hardware on my SBC6120/IOB6120 (there are 36 general-purpose I/O pins off the FPGA), but I'm pretty sure an EAE is out of the question, based on the fact that there's no hooks on the IM6120 processor. That leaves my -8/i or my -8/e (possibly an -8/a if I can get my second KK8E board set up and running). At least with the -8/i, the EAE is all M-series boards. I don't have any parts for the OMNIBUS EAE. So my best chance is a VC8I + EAE... -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 12:43:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 13:43:25 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <009101c53f64$12928980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009101c53f64$12928980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2005 9:32 AM, John Allain wrote: > > I can't believe that you don't already have one if > > you want one. They show up all the time around here. > > Don't wait. Ethernet and USB have been in _common_ > use for some time now. in a couple of years all the golden > age RS232 protocol analyzers will be thrown out. That's how I got my 4952C... nobody at work remembered the last time it got used, and it was n't useful for debugging our connectivity to the outside world, so out it went... -ethan From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 12 13:02:53 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:02:53 -0700 Subject: Texas Instruments TMS2600 Message-ID: <425C0D4D.9EA32E25@rain.org> I took a look in a 1977 IC Master and they show the TMS2600 as discontinued. However they show alternate sources as an AMI S8773 and National MM4230 and MM5230. BUT, the First Edition of "The Integrated Circuits Catalog for Design Engineers" from TI has the TI datasheet and specs starting at page 14-139. Pinout: 1 - A3 13 - A9 2 - A2 14 - CS 3 - A1 15 - MC 4 - B1 16 - Vgg 5 - B2 17 - A8 6 - B3 18 - A7 7 - B4 19 - A6 8 - B5 20 - A5 9 - B6 21 - A4 10 - B7 22 - NC 11 - B8 23 - NC 12 - Vss 24 - Vdd A - input B - output MC - Mode Control CS - Chip Select Vdd - drain power supply Vgg - Ground power supply Vss - Substrate Supply voltage Vdd - -12V nominal Supply voltage Vgg - -24V nominal Input chip select logic 1 - -12V nominal Input chip select logic 0 - 0V nominal input pulse width - 650 ns minimum "A logical 0 on the chip select input will cause the outputs to become open circuits on the "single-ended" (open drain) type output buffer and will cause the outputs to go to Vdd on the double-ended (push-pull) type output buffer. > I've recently acquired an old Wang 144T programmable electronic calculator. > Early '70's technology. Uses a lot of 7400-series TTL, along with some > older > DTL. It is a microcoded machine, using a Texas Instruments TMS 2600 2K-bit > Mask Programmed ROM for the microcode store. I want to try to capture the > content > of the ROM, but I've not been able to find a pinout and specifications for > it anywhere. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 13:03:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:03:30 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <007a01c53f66$1d95fc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009101c53f64$12928980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <007a01c53f66$1d95fc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2005 9:47 AM, Jay West wrote: > Yeah, I guess you're probably right there. In that case, perhaps someone can > guide me. I've seen scads of HP models on ebay. However, often the > description isn't clear enough to determine if the unit just supports sync, > or just async, or just X.25, etc. etc. Having a penchant for HP gear (have > you noticed?hehe), does anyone know what model of HP protocol analyzer is > the right one for RS232, sync & async? Some of the ones I've seen there > APPEAR to be very specific for things I wouldn't want and I'm just not up on > the HP models of this. The 4951A and 4951B use TU58-style data carts (down to the capstan turning to goo). Unlike a DEC TU58, the HPs format blank tapes. The 4951C uses a 3.5" floppy. Beyond that, there are different 'pods' for the physical layer. All of them attach to the analyzer in the back and provide some sort of traffic light functionality, plus a suitable physical connection (DB25, DC37...) for the physical standard in question. I have one RS-422 pod, and one RS-232 pod, and I forget what the 4951C pod is, but probably RS-232. Presuming one has a 495X with DB25 RS-232 pod, all of the models I have do sync and async just fine, ASCII and EBCDIC, have the internal programming language which can trigger captures on in-band data, etc. The 4951C has an optional terminal (VT100) app that is on a copy protected floppy, and I don't know if it's possible to buy it from HP anymore. Obviously, with capture media being the way it is, I'd recommend a floppy-based HP if you need to save sessions. If you don't care, and won't be doing extensive protocol programming, even the tape-based ones are great. All I can say is that my experiences with this line of protocol analyzer have been great, and if you are snooping non-exotic connections, probably any of them will work fine. If you have some bizarro need, you might want to google up particular models as you see them appear on eBay (item 7506826828 has a good picture of a 4952A, as an example.) Prices sure do seem to vary. Glad I already have a few working ones. The non-working ones go cheap, but I have never had to fix one, beyond the mandatory gooey capstan replacement. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 13:25:26 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:25:26 -0400 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2005 1:37 PM, chris wrote: > Besides have you interacted with anyone under 18 via email recently? > Maybe filtering on spelling errors IS a good thing! =:-O No d00d... wot R U tlaking bout? :-) :-) :-) (in case you miss the first one) -ethan From Ladyelec at aol.com Tue Apr 12 15:16:33 2005 From: Ladyelec at aol.com (Ladyelec at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:16:33 EDT Subject: Intel offers $10, 000 for Moore's Law article Firm seeks pristine copy of founde Message-ID: <15a.4e869749.2f8d86a1@aol.com> Intel offers $10,000 for Moore's Law article / Firm seeks pristine copy of founder's prescient words Intel offers $10,000 for Moore's Law article Firm seeks pristine copy of founder's prescient words Intel Corp. lives by Moore's Law, but it apparently doesn't have a copy of the magazine in which the law was first laid down. The Santa Clara chip giant has posted a $10,000 bounty on eBay for someone who can provide a pristine April 19, 1965, copy of Electronics magazine. That issue of the magazine contained an article by Intel co-founder Gordon Moore that described how the number of components on integrated circuits was doubling every year. The article became the foundation for his famed dictum. "We have photocopies of the article but not the actual issue of the magazine," an Intel spokesman said. "Gordon doesn't have it and the Intel Museum doesn't either." Electronics magazine went out of business several years ago. Intel turned to the online auction site on Monday, posting a message on eBay's Want It Now page offering $10,000 for a copy of the magazine in mint condition. (The company may buy more than one copy but at a lower price. Intel employees and their families are ineligible.) Moore's Law -- which has since been revised to estimate that the number of transistors doubles every 18 months -- has been the cornerstone for the information technology industry for decades as it has defined how products can simultaneously drop in price while improving in performance. This has created a situation in which users upgrade well before their equipment breaks, a boon for the industry. Despite its historical significance, the article at the time wasn't considered a monument. "I didn't think it would be especially accurate," Moore said in a recent interview. Moore, 76, was born in San Francisco and received a bachelor's degree in chemistry from UC Berkeley. He was research director at the Fairchild Semiconductor division of Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corp. when he wrote the Electronics magazine article in 1965, and in 1968 he co-founded Intel. Chronicle staff contributed to this report. Page D - 1 URL: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/04/12/BUG63C6H4V1.DTL From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Apr 12 15:36:08 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:36:08 +0200 Subject: Datapoint 1550 Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050412223603.03468ad0@pop.xs4all.nl> Does anyone have information about a Datapoint 1550 ? And perhaps a picture of one ? Thanks, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 12 15:49:26 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 16:49:26 -0400 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050412110011.04c87f70@mail> References: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050412164619.03b0e538@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: >They don't seem to care whether they're making fixed-width >art or using variable width fonts. I've seen some that's >quite messed up in Eudora. As have I. They weren't all that friendly in Mutt, either... ;-) >Any old ASCII art program would do it, no? I think there >are tools that can turn bitmaps to ASCII, so why not? I'm sure there are. ontopically, wasn't there a version of doom (original) that could be played via serial terminal? It turned all the grafix, walls, etc. to text? Offtopically, mplayer (freeware video player for *nix) can turn *movies* into text and play them on xterms... It's kinda... weird. ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 12 15:53:36 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:53:36 -0600 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> chris wrote: >The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell checking. >If more then a certain number of words don't match the dictionary file, >then it is rejected. > > The spam filters need to learn to read instead. Sadly most spam I get now is random words style spam. Ben alias worlds worst speller. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Tue Apr 12 16:18:25 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:18:25 +0200 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Hmm I can remember having a mod for my BBS package that would filter out any ad's from other BBS' and those contained also random stuff so hmm should be usuable for spam too no ? At 22:53 12-4-2005, you wrote: >chris wrote: > >>The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell checking. >>If more then a certain number of words don't match the dictionary file, >>then it is rejected. >> >The spam filters need to learn to read instead. Sadly most spam I get now >is random words >style spam. Ben alias worlds worst speller. > ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 12 16:09:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 15:09:28 -0600 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <200504121715.NAA08150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200504121715.NAA08150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <425C3908.3040500@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: >>The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell >>checking. If more then a certain number of words don't match the >>dictionary file, then it is rejected. >> >> > >Or if the email contains, say, a befunge program, rather than any >natural-language text. For example, here's a program that (allegedly - >I haven't checked) computes square roots: > >v>00p10p>00g:10g\/v > ^:&< |:-1p00/2+< > > >>93*^ >00g.@ >> >> I was looking for the "turing tar pit" on the web to find out if befunge was the hardest language to program in. I think "brainfuck" or something like that was the hardest to program in. Anyhow I found a site with some intersting thoughts about computers and programing -- "Epigrams in Programming" http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html A nice break from all the hardware hacking. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 12 16:19:35 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:19:35 -0700 Subject: ASCII art spam References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <425C3B67.82D1C396@msm.umr.edu> the random crapola spam is trying to spoof ISP baysian spam filters. They dont care if you read it or not. The words fill up the ISP level filters and they don't know what is spam and what is not. It's a tough nut to crack. If spelling and grammar were the measure we'd all be in trouble. Jim woodelf wrote: > chris wrote: > > >The next generation of spam filters needs to start doing spell checking. > >If more then a certain number of words don't match the dictionary file, > >then it is rejected. > > > > > The spam filters need to learn to read instead. Sadly most spam I get > now is random words > style spam. Ben alias worlds worst speller. From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Apr 12 13:16:10 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 14:16:10 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <3.0.6.32.20050412084233.00b45100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <425C106A.665F24A1@mindspring.com> > >I happen to have a Atlantic Research Inc, serial datascope. It contains > >several boards [std bus z80, rom/ram card, CRT5027 based crt controller Card] > >however no manual. Someday I'll track down at least a schematic and fix > >the CRT. The boards say T-bar on them so the instument may even be from > >another company with the ACI label. It would be fun to get it operational. > > Steve Robertson has a working Atlantic Research datascope. He picked it > up at the Orlando Hamfest a couple of years ago and I THINK he got the > manual for it also. You might check with him. > > Joe I have a working Atlantic Research "COMSTATE I" but, no user manual. Not sure if this is the datascope I got at the hamfest or not. There might be another AR scope one in the warehouse. This particular unit is a Z80 SBC not STD BUS. There are three additional 64K RAM cards in the unit but the backup batteries are fried. Sooner or later, I'll get around to replacing them. I looked through my STD BUS docs but could not find any docs for that particular CRT controller card. If I find them, I'll let you know. See ya, SteveRob From rimmer at xs4all.nl Tue Apr 12 15:25:57 2005 From: rimmer at xs4all.nl (Stefan) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:25:57 +0200 Subject: Datapoint 1550 Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050412222520.03465a38@pop.xs4all.nl> Does anyone have information about a Datapoint 1550 ? And perhaps a picture of one ? Thanks, Stefan. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:06:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:06:13 -0500 Subject: Unix on old-ish machines - advice sought In-Reply-To: <4259A264.7000903@gifford.co.uk> References: <200504060839.JAA08891@citadel.metropolis.local> <20050407195320.79ad29f7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <425635E3.5070704@internet1.net> <575131af05040805407ac2aac9@mail.gmail.com> <4259A264.7000903@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050412180613.5d681b42.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 23:02:12 +0100 John Honniball wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > I don't suppose there's anywhere online with a very simple > > illustrated step-by-step guide on how to do this, is there? My IPX > > is dead, I can just about solder without burning myself - on a good > > day - and I'd love to fix it. > > I did a couple of Sun NVRAM battery fixes (a while ago now) and > I took digital photos. If there's interest in seeing how to do it, > I can put up a web page. I didn't bother to remove the internal > battery, I just exposed the connections and wired a lithium cell > in parallel. Another one I did (on 31 Dec 1999!) used an external > two-cell AA battery holder. > I just use AAA battery holders. And really, there isn't much draw and the batteries should last a little bit less than their unused shelf life. I use double-back foam tape to mount the battery connector somewhere unobtrusive, and so that I don't have to drill or modify the Sparc case. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 16:55:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:55:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 11, 5 09:37:21 pm Message-ID: > Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I > did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and > absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, but I remember is > was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a data entry pad on the front. > It was the most incredibly useful thing... you could program it to watch for > a particular sequence of ascii characters, then start capturing data. One > button would flip the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had > a dual display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive > on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box built > into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & async. I haev a Tekky 835 which does most of what you describe. It only has a single-line display, but as you scroll through the captured text, a status LED shows whether the character came from the DTE or DCE. This device can also simulate a DCE or DTE, so you can use it for testing serial peripherals on their own. I also have a crazy decvice called a 'Ferret'. It's built into an ABS case, a bit like one of those attache' cases. It combines the functions of a breakout box, protocol analyser (but only for async data I think), RS232 - current loop converter (and you can have different baud rates on the 2 sides!), RS232 - centronics converter (I think it does dataproducts parallel too), perallel printer tester (in other words you can send messages to a Centronics printer), RS232 printer (there's a little built-in strip printer, like the one in an Epson HX20), EPROM programmer (!), you can even download and run programs on the built-in Z80 processor. There;'s even a cassstte interface to save the contents of user memory. I really must dig it out and get it going... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 17:03:44 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:03:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <0IET006XWEBEOLJF@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 11, 5 11:42:52 pm Message-ID: > I happen to have a Atlantic Research Inc, serial datascope. It contains > several boards [std bus z80, rom/ram card, CRT5027 based crt controller Card] > however no manual. Someday I'll track down at least a schematic and fix I am quite sure you're capable of tracing out the schematic of something like that. It sounds like all the chips, and the bus pinouts are known, which will let you tie down and name a lot of signals. I've found that for things like this it takes less time (and is less stressful) to trace out the schematic than either to try and find one or do battle with the companys 'customer service' who rarely will supply such things. > the CRT. The boards say T-bar on them so the instument may even be from > another company with the ACI label. It would be fun to get it operational. This reminded me of another device I have. It calles itself an 'InterView'. I forget who made it, maybe Trend. It's clearly some kind of protocol analyser. Alas it was dropped by an idiot long before I got it. The result is that the card cage is distorted (but the PCBs are all intact), the CRT has left its tension band (which scares the heck out of me!), and the cartridge tape drive (DC100-size tapes) is in many bits. Another project for a rainy day... And then there's the TDMS5. TDMS == Telegraph Distortion Measuring Set. This is sort-of the same kind of instrument for 5-bit teletupe lines. It'll send a given character repeatedly, send the Quick Brown Fox message, display the incoming bit transitions on a circular-timebase CRT, test polar relays for transition time and bounce, and so on. This thing is stuffed with valves. Fortunately I do have the service manual with schematics and layouts for that one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 12 17:37:52 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:37:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: <009601c53f6d$cf7602d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 12, 5 09:41:20 am Message-ID: > > As many of you have probably seen, the ClassicCmp KnowledgeBase has been > announced in Evan's Computer Collector Newsletter. I've taken a look at it, and I am not yet convinced this is a Good Thing... In a couple of cases, I disagree with the advice given. I'll give my comments below, and to be honest, they probably are personal comments _but_ it shows there's always room for an alternative viewpoint. That's what's great about this list, we have discussions here, nobody really tries to be 'God' when it comes to technical matters. Alternative ideas help a lot. The points I've noticed so far that I disagree with are : 1) Buy a cheap Dial Test Indicator. My view : I am not rich enough to buy cheap tools! The point of buying an expensive DTI is not that it will last longer (you will not wear out any DTI with normal use!), it's that it'll be more accurate. Don't your classic disk drives deserve to be set up properly. OK, I use a DTI for other things as well (if you have a lathe it's pretty much essential to have one), so perhaps I need a good one. But... 2) Get a digital storage scope. My view : I've never used a DSO 'in anger', and I've done plenty of debugging. In fact I don't own a DSO. Yo ucan do an awful lot with a good analogue 'scope and the DSO always worries me in that you don't know what it's done to your signal before displaying it. Good DSOs are going to be alright _if correctly used_, cheaper ones may do all sorts of horrors... It's probably like the analogue .vs. digital multimeter debate. I use my Fluke DMM a lot more than my analogue VOM but if I could only have one I'd certainly pick the analogue one. The reason is that for 99% of repairs accuracy is not that important (and on that score , just because a DMM shows 3.5 digits does not imply they're all meaningful!), but often showing the trend of a signal (is it rising or falling, can I adjust for a peak, etc), is the important thing. And that's much easier to see on an analouge instrument. I am a bit worried that the knowledgebase will be taken as the 'gospel truth'. I'd much rather have these sorts of things discussed here (or at least complete discussions preserved). Many of use have our own way of doing things. This doesn't make one of us right and the rest wrong. But I feel it's best to present as many views as possible and let the questioner decide what to do. -tony From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue Apr 12 18:12:04 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 00:12:04 +0100 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050412061652ab690e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006201c53fb5$0c549f30$0500a8c0@gamemachine> -----Original Message----- From: Dan Williams [mailto:williams.dan at gmail.com] Sent: 12 April 2005 14:17 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) On 4/12/05, Charles Blackburn wrote: > Let me know. I can possibly take a trip on Saturday morning/afternoon. > What sort of size are we looking @? I have a golf estate. Show off, I don't even have a garden ;) Neither do I :D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.6 - Release Date: 11/04/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 12 18:09:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:09:09 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: <007a01c53f66$1d95fc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20050411185310.00b53c30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050412083829.00b45760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <009101c53f64$12928980$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <007a01c53f66$1d95fc70$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050412190909.00b30ac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I have a HP 4951 with a tape drive. (The TD is the reason that I seldom use it). The one problem that you frequently find in these and a lot of other "modern" electronics is that they use internal NiCAd batteries and the batteries go bad. I was given the one that I have because of that. SOMETIMES it's an easy fix but in the case of my 4951 the leaking battery had fuined the card it was on. Fortunately that card was for an option so I was able to use the PA without it. I also got a NICE Logic Analyzer cheap becuase of the same fault. But to make a long story short, you need to check these out before you buy if at all posible. If it has memory problems you should be able to use that as grounds to get it CHEAP. But you may also find that it is ruined if the battery has leaked. Joe At 02:03 PM 4/12/05 -0400, Ethan wrote: > >All I can say is that my experiences with this line of protocol >analyzer have been great, and if you are snooping non-exotic >connections, probably any of them will work fine. If you have some >bizarro need, you might want to google up particular models as you see >them appear on eBay (item 7506826828 has a good picture of a 4952A, as >an example.) Prices sure do seem to vary. Glad I already have a few >working ones. The non-working ones go cheap, but I have never had to >fix one, beyond the mandatory gooey capstan replacement. > >-ethan > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 12 18:21:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:21:39 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <0IEU00KSYWVQDY04@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? > From: Steve Robertson > >> >I happen to have a Atlantic Research Inc, serial datascope. It contains >> >several boards [std bus z80, rom/ram card, CRT5027 based crt controller Card] >> >however no manual. Someday I'll track down at least a schematic and fix >> >the CRT. The boards say T-bar on them so the instument may even be from >> >another company with the ACI label. It would be fun to get it operational. > I looked through my STD BUS docs but could not find any docs for that >particular CRT controller card. If I find them, I'll let you know. > >See ya, >SteveRob oops a mind melt. I confused a rather decrepit ARI data monitor thats likely beyond hope (dropped from height) with the one I need schematics on. The one I'm looking for data about is a T-bar Explorer pn5915-10 with a 9/1982 date. The control logic inside is three STD bus cards. It's 5.25"hx8.5"wx15"D. It has no data storage tape or floppy. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:23:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:23:26 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: <002d01c53ba8$e7965220$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20050412182326.5b5e1d85.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 19:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 7 Apr 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Its a very visible data point. Anybody with an ebay account can keep > > track of what systems they are interested in were sold (if they sold > > which is always good to know) for. Nobody knows what you can get a > > system for Sellam because it is not mentioned in public, so the deal > > might well not even exist to the rest of us collectors. > > If your experience consists solely of tracking eBay auctions then > you're never going to fully understand the dynamics of this particular > hobby. You are seeing only a subset of the actual deals taking place > on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. If you're going to want to be in > the business of valuation, you first need to keep track of data points > from many sources, including thrift stores, flea markets, surplus > shops, ham fests, private sales, surplus auctions, etc. You also need > to understand the dynamics of each source. In the case of eBay, if > you have a handle on the other sources then you know that prices are > consistently inflated in that venue, so you know to apply a fudge > factor to normalize an eBay sale. Thrift stores and surplus auctions > are generally on the lower end of the scale, so you apply a fudge > factor to normalize the value upwards. > > > There are peaks and valleys of what something sells for on ebay just > > like any other venue. The shear volume of same items sold over a > > long period of time to me is a good indication of what the retail > > value of that items is , more accurate then any printed price guide > > or somebody bragging about getting one for a buck at a flee market > > 2000 miles from me. > > You're discounting the tendency of the eBay auction mechanism to > consistently inflate prices. This is well known and is the reason why > it's so popular with sellers. It's also the basis of the persistent > gripes you hear from buyers on eBay (i.e. eOverpay, etc.) If you > don't understand this then you have no business philosophizing about > values. > Anything is 'worth' whatever a chump anywhere is worth paying for it. I was at a household estate auction last weekend where they were selling the entire contents of a house. People were willing to pay pretty much the same amount that they would have paid at Kroeger for partially used bottles of laundry detergent, and boxes of canned goods. At the other end of the spectrum, I've seen 'Fourty boxes of misc household' on a skid sell for $5 at other auctions. It depends entirely on the venue, and who is present at the sale. The one last weekend was 'regular rubes' in a suburban neighborhood setting. The 'fourty boxes' auction was a Wednesday morning sale in a centrally located warehouse district. Where it concerns 'collectables' or hobby-related items, a huge 'reality distortion' phenomeon kicks in, i.e. local-scarcity issues and other factors matter a lot. Big venues like eBay that are worldwide in scope wash away some of these effects, and introduce other ones. One thing for certain is that 'published' values in today's markets are obsolete/irrelevant before the ink dries. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 18:27:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:27:33 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: Message-ID: <003801c53fb7$348d2ec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > I also have a crazy decvice called a 'Ferret'. It's built into an ABS Holy cow! I kept expecting you to add ".... it has a swiss army knife, and it slices and dices..." Sounds like a very cool device. Jay From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:33:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:33:46 -0500 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 09:27:11 -0400 Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: > > >> If you want a rack mount unit, look out for Memcor scopes - these > >> seem to be a re-badged Tek 647, supplied under a military contract > >> for navigational beacons, and can be got for very little, as > >> no-one realises what they are (I got mine for ?30 including > >> shipping in the UK, and it is a 100MHz unit dual trace unit). > > William> Watch out! The military scopes that look like Teks but are > William> not are really bad clones (Lavoies are the worst). They were > William> made under license and just are not up to Tek > William> standards. When they were in service they were the curse of > William> the ET and Tech Rep crowd. > > William> Also watch out for Tek scopes that were made for the > William> military. Look closely on many, and you will discover a few > William> features were left out of the military models (generally > William> AN/USM-somethings), but look nearly identical. Some shady > William> dealers do not point these differences out. > > That's what I have. It's a barebones 7603. For example, Tek offered > a "readout" option, i.e., display the sweep and vertical sensitivity > settings on the screen. That was probably pretty common, but the unit > I have didn't come with that. > > No harm done, I've never had it before, and since it was an option I > wouldn't call it cheating if someone sells a unit without the option. > > paul > > The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these days for what they represent. I got a fast 79xx mainframe at auction last year for $5 because it had weird plugins (the Logic Analyzer plugins, without the pods- useless) in it and didn't look much like a 'scope' to a lot of the other people at the auction. So I sold the 'weird plugins' for a slight profit on eBay and kept the mainframe. At the same sale, I got a whole stack of 7000 plugins, including some fast dual traces, and the Differential Comparator plugin (a truly GREAT piece of gear) for $5 apiece, and sold enough of the ones I didn't want that the parts I ended up keeping cost me about negative $40 or so. Students these days don't learn squat about using analog scopes, and there is a LOT you can do with one if you know how. Delayed sweep, external trigger, etc. are there for a reason, and worth getting acquainted with. With delayed sweep and the Differential Comparator plugin (introduces a DC offset so you can look at the 'important' part of the waveform at high gain) you can zoom in on tiny windows of repetetive waveforms as well as (better than, actually) any digital scope. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:49:38 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:49:38 -0500 Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: References: <009601c53f6d$cf7602d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050412184938.33e2f66f.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:37:52 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > > As many of you have probably seen, the ClassicCmp KnowledgeBase has > > been announced in Evan's Computer Collector Newsletter. > > I've taken a look at it, and I am not yet convinced this is a Good > Thing... > > In a couple of cases, I disagree with the advice given. I'll give my > comments below, and to be honest, they probably are personal comments > _but_ it shows there's always room for an alternative viewpoint. > That's what's great about this list, we have discussions here, nobody > really tries to be 'God' when it comes to technical matters. > Alternative ideas help a lot. > > The points I've noticed so far that I disagree with are : > > 1) Buy a cheap Dial Test Indicator. My view : I am not rich enough to > buy cheap tools! The point of buying an expensive DTI is not that it > will last longer (you will not wear out any DTI with normal use!), > it's that it'll be more accurate. Don't your classic disk drives > deserve to be set up properly. > > OK, I use a DTI for other things as well (if you have a lathe it's > pretty much essential to have one), so perhaps I need a good one. > But... > > 2) Get a digital storage scope. My view : I've never used a DSO 'in > anger', and I've done plenty of debugging. In fact I don't own a DSO. > Yo ucan do an awful lot with a good analogue 'scope and the DSO always > > worries me in that you don't know what it's done to your signal before > > displaying it. Good DSOs are going to be alright _if correctly used_, > cheaper ones may do all sorts of horrors... It's probably like the > analogue .vs. digital multimeter debate. I use my Fluke DMM a lot more > > than my analogue VOM but if I could only have one I'd certainly pick > the analogue one. The reason is that for 99% of repairs accuracy is > not that important (and on that score , just because a DMM shows 3.5 > digits does not imply they're all meaningful!), but often showing the > trend of a signal (is it rising or falling, can I adjust for a peak, > etc), is the important thing. And that's much easier to see on an > analouge instrument. > If you're fanatical, get a Fluke Differential Voltmeter. Then you can 'home in' on the DC level with the rotary switches, and watch the analog variations on the null-detector/indicator. And late-model Fluke Differential voltmeters sell for pennies these days on eBay. And are truely classic analog hardware (it's the instrument that gave the John Fluke Company it's good name) From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 18:49:19 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:49:19 -0400 Subject: If TMS9900 CPU on ebay, let me know. Thanks. Message-ID: Group, If there is TMS9900 CPU auction on ebay in the near future, please let me know. Thank you. cheers, vax, 9000 From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:52:00 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:52:00 -0500 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: References: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> Message-ID: <20050412185200.5ec5eb26.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 10:55:14 -0500 "David H. Barr" wrote: > There are many, many, MANY programs that do such things. It felt like > a matter of time, and I disagree with you that it won't catch on, > sadly :/ I predict hypertext ascii art links, with stylesheets to > turn off the underlining. > > -dhbarr the saddened. > The worst case of all is when people do things like 'ascii art animation' sequences, but package it in something like Macromedia Flash. I've seen it a few times, and it's just something to shake your head sadly at. From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 18:57:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:18:25 +0200 Stefan wrote: > Hmm I can remember having a mod for my BBS package that would filter > out any ad's from other BBS' and those contained also random stuff so > hmm should be usuable for spam too no ? > I had a 'filter' on my BBS because one single user had an annoying habit of typing in ALL CAPS. And he didn't have an all-caps terminal to use as an excuse. So one night I dug in and hacked the Pascal code (this was a WWIV BBS) to not allow any but the first letter in an entered word to be upper case (it would automatically force all following letters to lower case until some whitespace occured). Next time Mister All-Caps logged in he had a fit. What a riot online life was those days... From classiccmp at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 19:03:47 2005 From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (Classic Computers) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:03:47 -0700 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050410144812.C96239@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> GW stands for Gordon Whitten, a Microsoft employee. If you Google gw-basic, you'll find a couple of places that say Greg Whitten, but it's Gordon. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 2:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GW-Basic > > I am looking for the origional GW-Basic Compiler what would you like On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > GW-Basic is an interpreter (run-time compilation). > My understanding is that it was originally part of MS-DOS. PC-DOS > from IBM had BASIC and BASICA, which relied on the ROM BASIC in a True > Blue system. > > I have the IBM Basic Compiler 1.0, aka "BASCOM" > also the IBM Pascal Compiler 1.0, in > IBM slipcovers with manuals. They go nicely with my PC-DOS 1.0. I'm > not looking to trade them, though. > > Doesn't the GW in GW-Basic stand for Graphics Workstation? It very well might, but the author of the MS/IBM Pascal Compiler told me that it stood for "Gee Wiz". He also told me to NOT use the Pascal compiler's runtime library. > Is MS-DOS > really where the BASIC interpreter with this name originates? I know > Microsoft produced a lot of other BASIC versions that predate MS-DOS. The CP/M BASIC was NOT named "GW". > Please correct any of the above. I am not an authority on any of this. None of us are. Particularly not the ones who claim to be. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 12 19:20:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:20:21 -0400 Subject: If TMS9900 CPU on ebay, let me know. Thanks. Message-ID: <0IEU00MIUZLK03Q1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: If TMS9900 CPU on ebay, let me know. Thanks. > From: 9000 VAX > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:49:19 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Group, > If there is TMS9900 CPU auction on ebay in the near future, please >let me know. Thank you. > >cheers, >vax, 9000 Looking for just the chip or a board level product? Why are you looking for one and how much are they going for these days? Allison From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 19:25:46 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:25:46 -0500 Subject: new classiccmp.org service References: Message-ID: <005901c53fbf$564038c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > I've taken a look at it, and I am not yet convinced this is a Good > Thing... I welcome constructive criticism! > In a couple of cases, I disagree with the advice given. You're allowed, entitled, and encouraged to disagree. That's what the "add comment" feature is for! Or better yet, post your own article on the subject. I'd prefer the KB to be less "conversational", that's what the list is for. Instead, I'd prefer if an alternate post is more along the lines of "Here's what *I* think, and why". >.... That's > what's great about this list, we have discussions here, nobody really > tries to be 'God' when it comes to technical matters. Alternative ideas > help a lot. I agree wholeheartedly, and I don't think the KnowledgeBase in any way detracts from that spirit. That's why I specifically encouraged people to post articles on the same topic as others (or at their own discretion just post comments to an existing article), so that there wasn't a purported "single right answer". Possibly my intent was misunderstood. The knowledge base isn't meant to be "the word of god", it is meant to be advice (occasionally opposing advice) from people with experience such as yourself. Also, bear in mind, the KB doesn't replace the list. This list is the place for discussion. The KB is a place to put forth the distilled results of that discussion, which may well contain opposing viewpoints. > The points I've noticed so far that I disagree with are : > > 1) Buy a cheap Dial Test Indicator. My view : I am not rich enough to buy > cheap tools! I definitely see your point. The spirit of my post was directed at those who are on a budget, and there's a lot of dial test indicators out there that cost several hundreds of dollars median price. My own thought was that given a tight budget, a few hundred dollar dti wasn't going to make it into a new collectors toolkit. I would rather them have a cheap one, and be able to learn how to replace a platter, than try to do it without one at all, or worse, not restore a system because they can't afford an expensive DTI. Your point is just as valid though. Which is why I encourage you to post a comment to my article on that point, or post your own article on the same topic! > 2) Get a digital storage scope. My view : I've never used a DSO 'in > anger', and ... snip... I happen to agree with you on this point though. But... see above and below... > I am a bit worried that the knowledgebase will be taken as the 'gospel > truth'. I'd much rather have these sorts of things discussed here (or at > least complete discussions preserved). Many of use have our own way of > doing things. This doesn't make one of us right and the rest wrong. But I > feel it's best to present as many views as possible and let the > questioner decide what to do. Tony, I must respectfully admit that I am a little confused why you were left with the opinion that the KB was meant to be the "gospel truth". Differing viewpoints are most welcome and encouraged. Perhaps it was my statement that I don't want the KB to become a "conversation", in that light I can see why you might be left with that impression. In reality, I simply don't want it to be a tit-for-tat argument, or much back and forth. What I'm driving at is completely different viewpoints on a given subject are perfectly fine in the KB. Let the reader decide. Perhaps you thought my moderation of the posts indicated that. In the final analysis, the only way the knowledge base will become what you are concerned it may become, is if you don't post articles with your own views. If you do, then there's no way it can become that. Regards, Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 19:24:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <2271.192.168.0.3.1113089592.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Witchy wrote: > >> Ah, but the 466 manual has pull-out schematics and parts lists for every > >> single major module (basically every single PCB). I try and avoid recent > >> hardware due to the lack of schematics and service data, although the > >> same > >> applies (to a lesser degree) to older equipment. I'm after a maintenance > >> manual for a Solartron 7150 - I've got the operator's manual but I want > >> the > > Before I say anything else, this isn't a personal attack on anyone, just a > semantics thing. > > I'm not wishing to sound bitter or anything, but when I asked an identical > question about scopes last year I didn't get the same level of replies > that this question is getting so I floundered for ages. The same people > are around now that were around then so was it the way I phrased the > question or typed the subject line? > > Just thoughts... Sometimes people are in sync with your needs/wishes. Other times not. It's not that you were being ignored, it's just that your message didn't get picked up. Happens all the time. If you don't feel you got the response you wanted, try asking the same question again a few days later. If still no one responds, either you have come up with a real zinger or you truly are being ignored :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 12 19:57:10 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If TMS9900 CPU on ebay, let me know. Thanks. In-Reply-To: from 9000 VAX at "Apr 12, 5 07:49:19 pm" Message-ID: <200504130057.RAA14474@floodgap.com> > If there is TMS9900 CPU auction on ebay in the near future, please > let me know. Thank you. This is going to seem like a very dumb question, but why wouldn't a garden-variety TI 99/4A be suitable? Those are pretty straightforward to locate. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- Juan Ramon Jimenez --- From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 19:55:22 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050410215731.04b55178@mail> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) > > Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) But unlike eBay, I don't inflate values ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 19:57:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 17:57:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <002401c53e45$f626a340$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John Foust" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:57 PM > Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > > > > At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > > >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) > > > > Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) > > > > - John > > > > He is dealer, anytime you make a living off of your hobby you will view it > differently then somebody who does it purely for entertainment value. Excuse me, but I am NOT a "dealer". It's quite obvious you don't know the first thing about me. Please do not feign to speak for me and I won't go around telling people you flip burgers for a living. Okay? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:10:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:10:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > > long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) > > What made you an "expert" in valuation of goods, other than the > fact that you have a warehouse loaded with stuff? Not "goods" in general, but vintage computers. I've been in this hobby for a long time. I've bought a LOT of stuff, hence, how else would I have ended up with a "warehouse loaded with stuff"? I made it my business to track and understand valuations of vintage computers and have been doing it for longer than this hobby was even considered a "hobby". I do a lot of behind the scenes research that does not get discussed here. I talk to a lot of people: collectors, scrappers, surplus store owners, etc. I stay in tune with the "market". Major institutions refer their donors to me when an appraisal is required. Relative to how seriously other people take this, I can claim to be an "expert". What gives you the nerve to question my credentials? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brain at jbrain.com Tue Apr 12 20:23:25 2005 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:23:25 -0500 Subject: knowledgebase request In-Reply-To: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> Jay West wrote: > I think Sellam (and others) should put together a quick article on > appraisals (there is a section for that in the KnowledgeBase), so that > the frequent "Ebay sucks/rocks" threads can be squelched once and for > all ;) > > Jay West Not to start a thread, but if there isn't consensus here that they suck/rock, how can an article be authored? Or, did I miss the definitive eBay rocks/sucks position statement? If it sucks, does that mean I'm a horrid person for using it and liking it? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations brain at jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:24:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > Joe wrote... > > I found this today. Does anyone have a manual or any information on it? > > It looks very similar to this 9440 on E-bay > > > 5&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> > > Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) cheap. I > did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior life, and > absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, but I remember is > was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a data entry pad on the front. > It was the most incredibly useful thing... you could program it to watch for > a particular sequence of ascii characters, then start capturing data. One > button would flip the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had > a dual display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive > on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box built > into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & async. I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And yes, it was a definite must-have for any serious serial-based development work. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:25:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Apr 11, 2005 6:21 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5183306657 > > > > is not one, not two, but three MPI B51 floppy drives. Ohio > > Scientific used this model in all of their "MF" (mini-floppy) > > offerings. > > Nice. I used to have just a CP-4MF CPU board, but I gave it to Hans > Franke on a visit years ago. I've always wanted to get my hands on > some Ohio Scientific (they were based a couple hours from my house), > but as close as I am, I've never seen any bits for sale around here. > One of my childhood friends upgraded from a Quest Elf to a Superboard, > and a family friend had a Challenger III, but that's it for OSI > computers I've seen in person. :-/ OSI stuff seemed to be the hardest thing to get a hold of for me, but eventually I started to get them. I now have about 5-6 OSI systems of various models, including an unbuilt Superboard kit ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:27:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value? In-Reply-To: <20050412031719.23000.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Scott Austin wrote: > So... roughly $300 for a Kim-1? $100-$150 is more like it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 12 20:30:08 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:30:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: knowledgebase request In-Reply-To: <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> References: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <65054.207.145.53.202.1113355808.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jim asks (about eBay) > If it sucks, does that mean I'm a horrid person for using it and liking it? Yes, but that's not nearly as bad as turning on the Grail-shaped beacon, so you won't get into too much trouble for it. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:29:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:29:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Lots of fun, but I suppose a modern PC could do just as well, > presuming there's an app that's designed to capture and display > whatever goes by the serial port. I can't remember what the software I used was called, but I think I still have it somewhere and can check. It came with a special double-headed cable though, and unless that cable was just a simple Y-split, I don't know if making one from scratch would be feasible. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 12 20:32:45 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:32:45 -0400 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: <009601c53fc8$b3635dd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:57 PM Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "John Foust" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 10:57 PM > > Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... > > > > > > > At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > > > >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) > > > > > > Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) > > > > > > - John > > > > > > > He is dealer, anytime you make a living off of your hobby you will view it > > differently then somebody who does it purely for entertainment value. > > Excuse me, but I am NOT a "dealer". It's quite obvious you don't know the > first thing about me. Please do not feign to speak for me and I won't go > around telling people you flip burgers for a living. > > Okay? > > -- > Well you do sell equipment, and do appraisals don't you? I thought you were a collector/dealer, was I wrong? From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:32:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:32:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Don Maslin's Archive / UCSD Pascal adaptable system In-Reply-To: <001401c53f1c$9b604920$c63cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > I have an incomplete UCSD pascal disk set. > > Don had it listed on the DynaSig archive. > > Does anyone know if Don's Archive was saved or does anyone else have a UCSD > Adaptable disk set for the 8080/Z80 (either CP/M or full Adaptable). > > I am also looking for other p-system disks. I either have or have access > to: > > PC/MS-DOS Hosted > DEC RAINBOW > TERAK > APPLE-II > APPLE MAC > NorthStar > 6502 Adaptable > Osborne-II > TI-99/4A > Partial CP/M Adaptable I have the p-System for the PDP 11. I also have some other versions that I don't think are on your list. E-mail me and I'll make some copies for you. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 12 20:35:53 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:35:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: knowledgebase request In-Reply-To: <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> from Jim Brain at "Apr 12, 5 08:23:25 pm" Message-ID: <200504130135.SAA13058@floodgap.com> > Or, did I miss the definitive eBay rocks/sucks position statement? If > it sucks, does that mean I'm a horrid person for using it and liking it? Yes. ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- What you don't mean, can't hurt you. -- Firesign Theater ------------------- From CCTalk at catcorner.org Tue Apr 12 20:38:51 2005 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:38:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D34@mail.catcorner.org> Anyone know an approximate number of units manufactured in the different models? I'm mostly interested in numbers for the following models: 100 200 4 (Gate Array) 12 16b Any guesses? Any authoritive answers Thanks, Kelly From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 20:46:26 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:46:26 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 11 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > > > Joe wrote... > > > I found this today. Does anyone have a manual or any information > > > on it? > > > It looks very similar to this 9440 on E-bay > > > > > m=750632019 5&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> > > > > Someday I'll pick up a "datascope" (aka serial protocol analyzer) > > cheap. I did a lot of serial communications programming in a prior > > life, and absolutely lived with a datascope. Not sure of the brand, > > but I remember is was blue. No keyboard in the real sense, but a > > data entry pad on the front. It was the most incredibly useful > > thing... you could program it to watch for a particular sequence of > > ascii characters, then start capturing data. One button would flip > > the display between ascii/ebcdic, hex, binary.. and it had a dual > > display mode where it showed transmit on top of the line and receive > > on the bottom of the line. It was a godsend. It had a breakout box > > built into it, could buffer to floppy, etc. It could also do sync & > > async. > > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And yes, it > was a definite must-have for any serious serial-based development > work. > It's the perfect use for an older laptop that happens to have two serial ports. There is software that then turns both serial RX lines into inputs so you can monitor both directions of a full duplex connection. It gets you a dual-channel 'serial scope.' Unfortunately, there aren't that many laptops with two serial ports, certainly none being made today. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 12 20:46:00 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:46:00 -0400 Subject: knowledgebase request References: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <00a101c53fca$8beee4c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:23 PM Subject: Re: knowledgebase request > Jay West wrote: > > > I think Sellam (and others) should put together a quick article on > > appraisals (there is a section for that in the KnowledgeBase), so that > > the frequent "Ebay sucks/rocks" threads can be squelched once and for > > all ;) > > > > Jay West > > Not to start a thread, but if there isn't consensus here that they > suck/rock, how can an article be authored? > > Or, did I miss the definitive eBay rocks/sucks position statement? If > it sucks, does that mean I'm a horrid person for using it and liking it? > > Jim > > I would like to see an article that shows the best avenue for deals with respect to time and travel invested. One end would be buying widget A for $100 on average sitting on your ass and bidding on ebay compared to driving 200 miles and hitting 5 computer shows to get the same widget for $20 ( or maybe hitting up 5 usergroups you spend allot of time in and seeing what is available). This hobby is probably like a few others I was in where the amount of time you put into networking, learning about the collectable items, and hitting shows/swapmeets pays off with better deals and better equipment. The thing is some people have allot of time on their hands and have decent people skills while others don't have the time or are too introverted to mingle at shows. If time is money to you and you enjoy being alone in your computer lab working on your machines maybe ebay is the best way to go, others might like the hunt or the friends they made during the hunt more then sitting alone at the workbench. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:48:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:48:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: <009601c53f6d$cf7602d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > As many of you have probably seen, the ClassicCmp KnowledgeBase has been > announced in Evan's Computer Collector Newsletter. Jay, Great idea! I was going to launch a Wikipedia along the same lines but then had second thoughts. A knowledge base is a great concept and will be an excellent long-term source for the hobby. I whole-heartedly endorse it and hope people will contribute to it volumniously. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 20:52:25 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: knowledgebase request In-Reply-To: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > I think Sellam (and others) should put together a quick article on > appraisals (there is a section for that in the KnowledgeBase), so that the > frequent "Ebay sucks/rocks" threads can be squelched once and for all ;) When time permits, I will definitely do this. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 12 20:56:38 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 20:56:38 -0500 Subject: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value? In-Reply-To: <20050412031719.23000.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20050412031719.23000.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20050412205638.11c74cb1.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 20:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Scott Austin wrote: > /* coming out of the shadows.... */ > > I'm planning on exhibiting my MOS Kim-1 at the Trenton Computer > Festival (http://www.tcf-nj.org) and it occurred to me that I don't > know what this computer is worth (whatever "worth" means). > > **** I'm not interested in selling it **** > > My Kim-1 works and is a Rev B MOS unit, with original blue-cover > manuals (as well as home brew case and a home brew 2k memory > expansion). > > The only data point I have is a recent ebay auction, where 2 working > Kim-1s, nice enclosures, Kim Extender Interface, 4 memory cards, S100 > breadboarding card, issues of "Micro", etc went for $642. The item > description doesn't mention Rev #, or even whether its a MOS or > Commodore (though the photo shows *white* manuals). > > So... roughly $300 for a Kim-1? > > Thanks! > Scott > > All the extra stuff you listed needs to be included in that $642, and is worth more than the $42 you account to it. More data points are needed. I sold my second SYM-1 (not the same thing, but somewhat close) which was just the main board, and the main manual, to someone in Japan for about $130 a few years back (the one I kept is complete, serial-number-matches-that-on-box, etc. etc.) -----topic drift below----- Being the 'root for the underdog' sort of person, I'd say 'Synertec rulez, MOS sux' (early version of the AMD vs. Intel fanboy scene??) ((even earlier, the Zilog versus Intel 8080 conflict?)) So where's the fight between the Intersil versus Harris 6100 processor fanboys?? (My tubes of 6100s are all Harris) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 20:59:25 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:59:25 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I can't remember what the software I used was called, but I think I still > have it somewhere and can check. It came with a special double-headed > cable though, and unless that cable was just a simple Y-split, I don't > know if making one from scratch would be feasible. The physical cable used with HP line analysers is a simple Y-split - 25-position ribbon cable, two DB25F and one DB25M (or the other way round... can't quite remember). You can wedge the cable between two devices, then attach the free end to the HP pod (or just plug a DB25 cable right from one unit direct to the pod if you are using the HP to originate or consume bits) What I'm not sure of is if the HP pod has anything special in the way of drivers/receivers to keep from loading the line as it monitors things. I could open up a pod and see what's inside... -ethan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 21:01:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:01:13 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: Message-ID: <009b01c53fcc$abf781d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sellam wrote.... > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And yes, it was > a definite must-have for any serious serial-based development work. Yup, and I still have it too. It was called "BreakOut II", and did come with a Y cable. You can't just solder up a Y cable, as I recall some diodes were required. I'm sure I still have the cable here somewhere too. However, the PC software just isn't as cool as a real datascope :) Not to mention, even though BreakOut II was the big commercial product at the time I bought it, it surely doesn't come close to the nicety of the real datascope either. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 12 21:03:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:03:39 -0500 Subject: knowledgebase request References: <010d01c53f7f$5a05e760$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <00a201c53fcd$02f2a870$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Not to start a thread, but if there isn't consensus here that they > suck/rock, how can an article be authored? Because it is possible to have more than one article on the same topic from different authors. But more to the point - the articles aren't meant to prove a point, or win an argument, etc. That can be done on the list ;) I'd rather KB articles be written to inform - ie. explain WHY. Jay From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 21:02:47 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:02:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <20050412182326.5b5e1d85.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Anything is 'worth' whatever a chump anywhere is worth paying for it. I Right, but for the rest of the real world, especially where institutions and the government is concerned, a proper valuation is required. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 12 21:07:25 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050412185948.X52698@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Classic Computers wrote: > GW stands for Gordon Whitten, a Microsoft employee. > If you Google gw-basic, you'll find a couple of places > that say Greg Whitten, but it's Gordon. There have apparently been both a Gordon Whitten AND a Greg Whitten at Microsoft at various times. Neither is in the 1978 photo that shows the original 11 people of Micro-Soft. If you do, indeed, Google "gw-basic" or "gw-basic whitten", then you will find dozens of places that say "GREG Whitten" as the namesake of GW-BASIC, and Google does not index ANY sites that say that "Gordon Whitten" was the namesake. Is there a more reliable source for your assertion than Google? From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 21:05:57 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: If TMS9900 CPU on ebay, let me know. Thanks. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, 9000 VAX wrote: > If there is TMS9900 CPU auction on ebay in the near future, please > let me know. Thank you. Why are you asking the list to do your work for you, let alone perform a function that eBay can handle for you with its search features? Can I ask the list to wash my laundry this weekend? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 21:11:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > > > At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a > > >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) > > > > Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) > > But unlike eBay, I don't inflate values ;) My real answer should have been, I take *ALL* datapoints that I can find and turn them into a normalized valuation. It is NOT a datapoint, but a report on the current price as dictated by the market as a whole. To say that I'm "just one data point" entirely misses the point of what an "appraisal" is. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Apr 12 21:17:31 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 21:17:31 -0500 Subject: knowledgebase request References: <200504130135.SAA13058@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002101c53fce$f62ec400$5b3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Cameron Kaiser" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 8:35 PM >> Or, did I miss the definitive eBay rocks/sucks position statement? If >> it sucks, does that mean I'm a horrid person for using it and liking it? > > Yes. ;) Maybe we can have a poll to see who likes ebay , who hates ebay, and who aren't sure :) Personally I like it, while it can drive up prices for things it has also caused others to auction them instead of dumping them. Greed has saved many systems that would otherwise be scrapped. Of course there are others that decide to part something out trying maximize the all-mighty dollar. Very little out there is 100% good or evil (until you talk politics) ;-) Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 21:17:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:17:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <009601c53fc8$b3635dd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well you do sell equipment, and do appraisals don't you? I thought you were > a collector/dealer, was I wrong? I wish I sold stuff, but no, my acquire/dispense ratio is probably like 1000:1. I acquire way more than I get rid of. When I do sell, it's because I have a large surplus of something. I'm not a computer dealer. I'm a hobbyist like you. I'm a collector. I'm a historian. I'm an archivist. I'm also a consultant that uses all the skills I've acquired as a hobbyist to make a living. What might be confusing you is that I do occasionally BROKER sales. That's quite a bit different than what a dealer does, which is buys specifically to sell at a higher price. I don't do that now, never have, and probably never will. Collectors who truly love what they collect don't make good dealers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 21:26:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/12/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I can't remember what the software I used was called, but I think I still > > have it somewhere and can check. It came with a special double-headed > > cable though, and unless that cable was just a simple Y-split, I don't > > know if making one from scratch would be feasible. > > The physical cable used with HP line analysers is a simple Y-split - > 25-position ribbon cable, two DB25F and one DB25M (or the other way > round... can't quite remember). You can wedge the cable between two > devices, then attach the free end to the HP pod (or just plug a DB25 > cable right from one unit direct to the pod if you are using the HP to > originate or consume bits) > > What I'm not sure of is if the HP pod has anything special in the way > of drivers/receivers to keep from loading the line as it monitors > things. I could open up a pod and see what's inside... I have limited experience with this as I only tried it once, but when I did I noticed that either one or the other computer was greedy and took all the bits for itself, and the other computer didn't get any signal, so I always assumed you needed some sort of "special" cable in order to split an RS-232 signal. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 12 21:30:07 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <009b01c53fcc$abf781d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > Sellam wrote.... > > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And yes, it was > > a definite must-have for any serious serial-based development work. > > Yup, and I still have it too. It was called "BreakOut II", and did come with > a Y cable. You can't just solder up a Y cable, as I recall some diodes were > required. I'm sure I still have the cable here somewhere too. > > However, the PC software just isn't as cool as a real datascope :) Not to > mention, even though BreakOut II was the big commercial product at the time > I bought it, it surely doesn't come close to the nicety of the real > datascope either. Mine was different. It was actually made by the company that wrote the C serial library I used in my telecom system. It was called something generic like "Serial Data Analyzer". I'm not sure if I ended up with the cable. At any rate, I ended up with a very nice datacomm analyzer made by GenRad(?) I think. I'll check when I get home. I had it out for sale at a local ham fest last month but then realized how cool it was and jacked up the price to some ridiculous level so that I'd either get an unnatural buttload of cash for it or would get to take it home. I'm glad I got to take it home :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 21:42:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:42:06 -0400 Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) In-Reply-To: <20050412205638.11c74cb1.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050412031719.23000.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com> <20050412205638.11c74cb1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > Being the 'root for the underdog' sort of person, I'd say 'Synertec rulez, MOS sux' Well... since I _have_ a SYM-1, and had the books for it many, many years prior to locating the computer (like 20 years earlier), I'm pretty fond of the SYM-1. I also like the fact that the SYM-1 does _not_ use mask programmed parts (but the KIM-1 does). Other than that, they are really about the same machine. From a programming standpoint, I am unaware of any significant differences. I know they could share peripherals. Speaking of peripherals, I remember lots of ads back in the day, including one for an S-100 chassis for the SYM/KIM. I'd love to see schematics for that, especially since if I ever have one, I'll probably have to make my own rather than find one in the wild. I have a few S-100 cards now (something I didn't have back in my PET days), and it might be fun to do some driver coding for interesting things. I _do_ have (somewhere) the stuff relevant to hooking Commodore IEC peripherals (1541, 1520, 1526...) to a SYM. That's another thing that would be fun to implement... disks and files on a 6502 SBC. So many 6502 projects, so little time. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 12 22:01:47 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:01:47 -0400 Subject: knowledgebase request In-Reply-To: <002101c53fce$f62ec400$5b3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <200504130135.SAA13058@floodgap.com> <002101c53fce$f62ec400$5b3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <425C8B9B.7090209@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Maybe we can have a poll to see who likes ebay , who hates ebay, and who > aren't sure :) > > Personally I like it, while it can drive up prices for things it has > also caused others to auction them instead of dumping them. Same here. Almost everything I ever bought on eBay cost a lot more than the same item that "came to me" - given by somebody who knows I "collect computer stuff" or found at live auctions or garage sales. However, if I need a part or a gadget and I don't want to wait some indeterminate time till fate drops it in my lap, ebay is perfect. For example, I picked up several Maxtor 786MB ESDI drives for next to nothing at Goodwill last winter. I have a PDP-11/53 that's using an ailing RD52 for storage, so I last week eBayed up a Dilog ESDI controller. Not something I'm likely to happen into, and it makes two legitimate "found" items - the 11/53 which was free, and the cheap ESDI storage - come together in a very satisfying manner. Now the only problem is that I'm on the road for the next 3 weeks, and can't test any of it yet. :( Doc From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Apr 12 22:12:33 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:12:33 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <20050413031232.KOFA3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >> On 4/12/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > I can't remember what the software I used was called, but I think I still >> > have it somewhere and can check. It came with a special double-headed >> > cable though, and unless that cable was just a simple Y-split, I don't >> > know if making one from scratch would be feasible. >> >> The physical cable used with HP line analysers is a simple Y-split - >> 25-position ribbon cable, two DB25F and one DB25M (or the other way >> round... can't quite remember). You can wedge the cable between two >> devices, then attach the free end to the HP pod (or just plug a DB25 >> cable right from one unit direct to the pod if you are using the HP to >> originate or consume bits) >> >> What I'm not sure of is if the HP pod has anything special in the way >> of drivers/receivers to keep from loading the line as it monitors >> things. I could open up a pod and see what's inside... > >I have limited experience with this as I only tried it once, but when I >did I noticed that either one or the other computer was greedy and took >all the bits for itself, and the other computer didn't get any signal, so >I always assumed you needed some sort of "special" cable in order to split >an RS-232 signal. I have a couple of simple serial datascope packages in my Labtools ... I don't supply cables, I just give details on how to make them. Basically, there are two sets of signals to monitor, one going from DTE -> DCE, and one going from DCE -> DTE ... What the "Y" cable does is simply connect the DTE generated signals to the input signals on one COM port, and the DCE generated signals to the input signals on the another COM port. The software reads the two com ports and displays the two signals paths in a standard dual/split line format, with DTE signals on one line, and DCE signals on the other. (Since PCs are DTE's, the input signals to the COM ports are the DCE lines at the PCs serial connector). The DTE signals (outputs) from the PC COM ports are not connected, so the PC does not drive either side ... it just passivly monitors the traffic on the line. For short runs at the speeds commonly handled by a PC serial port, the extra loading of the passive receiver is usually not a problem. One limitation of this approach is that the PC cannot interact with the devices. Some stand-alone/higher-end scopes feature simulation, injection and other features which require that they be able to transmit on the line in specific circumstances these usually have their own set of line drivers and receivers, and act as a simple repeater during passive monitoring. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 12 23:17:39 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 22:17:39 -0600 Subject: If TMS9900 CPU on ebay, let me know. Thanks. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425C9D63.5080508@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Why are you asking the list to do your work for you, let alone perform a >function that eBay can handle for you with its search features? > >Can I ask the list to wash my laundry this weekend? > > My shirts need pressing too... I tend to agree that he has only one reason for wanting have other people search ebay for you ... it takes forever to display a page, and then you have to wade through the PC and game console crap. And then too I have to fight the e-pay's server to display stuff in Canada as default but it can still display 'buy stupid fad in canada for $.95" crap. I think it is fair however to ask the list members 1'st with a say wanted list and price to pay for the product and how much for shipping. Ben alias woodelf From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:23:09 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 00:23:09 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/12/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > The physical cable used with HP line analysers is a simple Y-split - > > 25-position ribbon cable... > > I have limited experience with this as I only tried it once, but when I > did I noticed that either one or the other computer was greedy and took > all the bits for itself, and the other computer didn't get any signal, so > I always assumed you needed some sort of "special" cable in order to split > an RS-232 signal. The HP cable itself is quite ordinary... pin 1 to pin 1... pin 25 to pin 25, with each pin going to the pod as well as between the two devices. The magic in this case is going to be in the pod, not the cable. One can certainly build an integral pod/cable, but that's not what HP did. They kept the cable itself as simple as possible. I don't know for sure what's in the pods, but now that we are disussing it, I do seem to recall that I heard relays clicking when entering and exiting monitoring modes. There is plenty of room for passive and not-so-passive components in there as well. -ethan From bear at typewritten.org Wed Apr 13 01:26:28 2005 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 23:26:28 -0700 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <001801c53f57$d626d160$0500a8c0@gamemachine> References: <001801c53f57$d626d160$0500a8c0@gamemachine> Message-ID: On Apr 12, 2005, at 5:04 AM, Charles Blackburn wrote: > Let me know. I can possibly take a trip on Saturday morning/afternoon. > What sort of size are we looking @? I have a golf estate. I need a keyboard, mouse, and keyboard cable for my DN330. Let me know if any turn up extra, and I'll be more than happy to pay freight plus some. Thanks ok bear From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 13 01:52:52 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 01:52:52 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504130152.52850.pat@computer-refuge.org> Vintage Computer Festival declared on Tuesday 12 April 2005 08:10 pm: > What gives you the nerve to question my credentials? Ok, this thread has gone on WAAAAYYY too far. Could you guys take this off list? PLEASE? If I'd had realized that I was going to open Pandora's Box, I would have left it alone. I apollogize to the rest of the list that's had to endure this... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Apr 13 02:47:46 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:47:46 +0100 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050413084052.056dffa0@pop.freeserve.net> At 00:57 13/04/2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >I had a 'filter' on my BBS because one single user had an annoying habit >of typing in ALL CAPS. And he didn't have an all-caps terminal to use >as an excuse. So one night I dug in and hacked the Pascal code (this >was a WWIV BBS) to not allow any but the first letter in an entered word >to be upper case (it would automatically force all following letters to >lower case until some whitespace occured). Next time Mister All-Caps >logged in he had a fit. What a riot online life was those days... You still run into those, on the web. I've given up complaining about web based order forms etc that decide they know better than me how to capitalise my surname, (though I wonder if they'd fix it if McDonalds complained) but there are rather a lot of systems that simply break when they encounter the apostrophe in my name. Sometimes they refuse to accept it at all, but at least that's better than those that accept it, then fall over later on in incredibly more subtle ways. (o2.com anybody?) The number of MS-SQL errors I see when I hit Submit ... Rob O'Donnell. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Apr 13 03:15:17 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:15:17 +0100 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <1113305795.3560.16.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1113305795.3560.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050413090807.056c1da0@pop.freeserve.net> At 12:36 12/04/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >Chap at Manchester uni has three Apollo 340 machines (plus assorted >spares by the sounds of it) which are heading to the skip today. I've >been trying to save these for a couple of weeks but it's just too far >away for anyone at the museum to make a dedicated trip to collect them, >and none of our people get up to that part of the country very often. > >Maybe someone local can rescue them instead (or even can hold them on >our behalf for a bit!) > >Shout if so anyway and I can give you contact details - maybe they can >be held in a room somewhere for a few days if someone's definitely >coming to pick them up. > >These are early Apollos so it'd be nice to save at least one (earliest >ones we have are DN3500 and DN3000 machines) I'm in Manchester (ok, Salford, but close enough!) and if you are really desperate could pick them up and hold them for you in the next day or so (not today unfortunately). I can also only do this for a short time though, as I've no storage space and they will have to sit in the dining room .. er. ... how big are they? Rob. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 13 03:51:09 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:51:09 +0100 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050412164619.03b0e538@mail.30below.com> References: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050412164619.03b0e538@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <425CDD7D.4060502@gjcp.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Offtopically, mplayer (freeware video player for *nix) can turn *movies* > into text and play them on xterms... It's kinda... weird. > ;-) So now you need to start selling off old MDA cards as "AAlib Hardware Accelerators", then. Gordon. From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 04:13:36 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:13:36 +0100 Subject: knowledgebase request In-Reply-To: <200504130135.SAA13058@floodgap.com> References: <425C748D.7030206@jbrain.com> <200504130135.SAA13058@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <26c11a6405041302137e4a3ce5@mail.gmail.com> On 4/13/05, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Or, did I miss the definitive eBay rocks/sucks position statement? If > > it sucks, does that mean I'm a horrid person for using it and liking it? > > Yes. ;) > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- What you don't mean, can't hurt you. -- Firesign Theater ------------------- > I agree, I use it quite often. There are still some bargins in there. I pretty much got all my vaxen from ebay and still paid reasnable prices for it. I got a 4000-500 for ?30. I also got that disk pack for it with 14 drives in it for 99p.But a while back there was a 4000-500 that went for ?170 with ?50 shipping. So it think it's more luck. I've also noticed with the conversion rate it can be cheaper to buy from Europe. I needed a power supply for a 4000/90, I ended up buying a 3 3100's, a 4000/90 and a 4000/60 for ?50 shipped from Germany all with mice and keyboards. Also ii've made some contacts with dealers that i've bought from. The seller I bought the disks packs from emailed a couple of weeks ago saying "You don't know anyone that would be interested in a Cray. It's a bit specialist I don't think it would get much on ebay" ;) Dan From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Apr 13 06:22:20 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:22:20 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435D34@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <006f01c5401b$110e4650$0b01a8c0@Mike> Tandy was notorious for not revealing sales/manufacturing figures. My rough guesses based on my experience as a journalist who covered Tandy for years: > 100--high six figures > 200--low six figures > 4 (Gate Array)--between 25,000 and 50,000 > 12--no more than 10,000 > 16b--between 10,000 and 20,000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Leavitt" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:38 PM Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats > Anyone know an approximate number of units manufactured in the different > models? > > I'm mostly interested in numbers for the following models: > > 100 > 200 > 4 (Gate Array) > 12 > 16b > > > Any guesses? Any authoritive answers > > Thanks, > Kelly > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 13 07:18:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:18:54 +0000 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <6.2.0.14.0.20050413090807.056c1da0@pop.freeserve.net> References: <1113305795.3560.16.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.0.14.0.20050413090807.056c1da0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <1113394734.5157.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 09:15 +0100, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 12:36 12/04/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >Chap at Manchester uni has three Apollo 340 machines (plus assorted > >spares by the sounds of it) which are heading to the skip today. *sigh* Email arrived to say they were going in a skip today - within an hour I'd replied to say that they could probably be saved if they could be held for a few days, but they'd already gone in the skip by then :( To be fair, the chap doesn't know what happened to them - they were just removed. Likely they hit the skip, but possibly they were put out for students to grab if wanted, in which case hopefully some enterprising soul saved them. Rats, rats and triple rats :-( cheers Jules From cbajpai at comcast.net Wed Apr 13 07:23:43 2005 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:23:43 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats In-Reply-To: <006f01c5401b$110e4650$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <200504131223.j3DCN8mn036862@dewey.classiccmp.org> How about the Model I & Model III? I would think they would be 50K+ of each. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 7:22 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats Tandy was notorious for not revealing sales/manufacturing figures. My rough guesses based on my experience as a journalist who covered Tandy for years: > 100--high six figures > 200--low six figures > 4 (Gate Array)--between 25,000 and 50,000 > 12--no more than 10,000 > 16b--between 10,000 and 20,000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Leavitt" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:38 PM Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats > Anyone know an approximate number of units manufactured in the different > models? > > I'm mostly interested in numbers for the following models: > > 100 > 200 > 4 (Gate Array) > 12 > 16b > > > Any guesses? Any authoritive answers > > Thanks, > Kelly > From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Apr 13 07:48:55 2005 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:48:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats References: <200504131223.j3DCN8mn036862@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <007901c54027$2935a190$0b01a8c0@Mike> Combined I/III sales were over a million. I might actually have those numbers somewhere. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chandra Bajpai" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: RE: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats > How about the Model I & Model III? > > I would think they would be 50K+ of each. > > -Chandra > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Michael Nadeau > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 7:22 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats > > Tandy was notorious for not revealing sales/manufacturing figures. My rough > guesses based on my experience as a journalist who covered Tandy for years: > > > 100--high six figures > > 200--low six figures > > 4 (Gate Array)--between 25,000 and 50,000 > > 12--no more than 10,000 > > 16b--between 10,000 and 20,000 > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kelly Leavitt" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:38 PM > Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats > > > > Anyone know an approximate number of units manufactured in the different > > models? > > > > I'm mostly interested in numbers for the following models: > > > > 100 > > 200 > > 4 (Gate Array) > > 12 > > 16b > > > > > > Any guesses? Any authoritive answers > > > > Thanks, > > Kelly > > > > > From GFisher at tristonecapital.com Wed Apr 13 08:05:30 2005 From: GFisher at tristonecapital.com (Gary Fisher) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:05:30 -0600 Subject: And $500 gets you... Message-ID: <8F18A9D87E3D3A479C61925B9CD77601010B6D@calgary2.tri-stone.tristonecapital.com> >Message: 5 >Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 18:10:40 -0700 (PDT) >From: Vintage Computer Festival >Subject: Re: And $500 gets you... >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Message-ID: >Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >lots of stuff deleteted >I do a lot of behind the scenes research that does not get discussed here. >I talk to a lot of people: collectors, scrappers, surplus store owners, >etc. I stay in tune with the "market". >lots more stuff deleted As an economist who is also involved in the auction business (you wouldn't believe what we auction!), it seems to me that the debate is revolving around what the "market" really is. On one side are the ePayers who buy retail and on the other side are those like Sellam who are on the wholesale side of the market (not to imply that he is a dealer, but he sees things before they get to retail, from sources like: scrap dealers, institutions etc.) It is just like when you go to the auto dealer to find out what your trade-in is worth, he looks in his red/black/blue book and gives you what seems like a stupidly low price. Those prices often come from wholesale car auctions and reflect what the dealer could source cars for. He is not going to pay retail price as he wouldn't make any profit from it. That leaves you to sell your car privately if you want to get the "retail" price. But both the car dealer and you see a "market" from different points on a continuum. As I don't live in Silicon Valley or anywhere with a history of "high tech ", I can only use eBay to access the "market". If I did live there, I would have access to many more sources (that's why I'm going the the next VCF!) Conclusion, the market isn't just end users or middlemen, it's both, but they pay/get different prices! Gary Fisher E:gfisher at tristonecapital.com This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this information by a person other than the intended recipient is unauthorized and may be illegal. Unless otherwise stated, opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and are not endorsed by the author's employer. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Apr 13 08:26:47 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:26:47 -0400 Subject: new classiccmp.org service References: <009601c53f6d$cf7602d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412184938.33e2f66f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16989.7703.379469.629954@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Scott" == Scott Stevens writes: Scott> If you're fanatical, get a Fluke Differential Voltmeter. Then Scott> you can 'home in' on the DC level with the rotary switches, Scott> and watch the analog variations on the Scott> null-detector/indicator. And late-model Fluke Differential Scott> voltmeters sell for pennies these days on eBay. And are Scott> truely classic analog hardware (it's the instrument that gave Scott> the John Fluke Company it's good name) I have one of those, bought for semi-real money back when I was in college (at the Dayton hamfest). Very nice machine, the only problem with it now is that its nicads are dead. Ideally you run that instrument on batteries, to eliminate offsets and noise from the mains power. paul From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 08:45:49 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:45:49 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > OSI stuff seemed to be the hardest thing to get a hold of for me, but > eventually I started to get them. I now have about 5-6 OSI systems of > various models, including an unbuilt Superboard kit ;) Damn! The one place I thought I had one up on you... OK Sellam, come clean. What have you managed to acquire? Bill From cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de Wed Apr 13 08:50:11 2005 From: cbmpet2001 at yahoo.de (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:50:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 2 IBM 3277-2 available [EU] Message-ID: <20050413135011.40853.qmail@web26003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Dear IBM-Users, I have 2 3277 Model 2 (those with the larger screen) from late 70's available for free. The units should work (I couldn't test them so far) and are in very used condition. They come from scrap, I could not see them out there. I will look out for keyboards and am sure that I have at least two spare. Please note: These Units aren't really pretty to look at, but the logics seem complete. If someone want to have them it'd be best to pick them up at my office. I would ship, but thats a bit expensive. It's also possible that I get them into my car and drive a bit. If interested, please contact me by mail, best regards, Wolfgang Eichberger PS.: I have a small Siemens-Terminal (Serial - comes from a DEC P9000 Unix environment, complete) too that I am willing to part with. ==================================================== Ing. Wolfgang Eichberger cell.: +43-664-240-65-92 http://www.eichberger.org email: wolfgang at eichberger.org ---------------------------------------------------- Gruentalerstr. 24 - 4020 Linz ? AUSTRIA ==================================================== From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 08:54:50 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:54:50 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413083910.04dda170@mail> At 09:11 PM 4/12/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> On Sun, 10 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: >> >> > At 09:46 PM 4/10/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > >Yeah, I thought I already put this issue to rest the last time I posted a >> > >long diatribe about it. You'd think people would listen to an expert ;) >> > >> > Like eBay, you're just one data point. :-) >> >> But unlike eBay, I don't inflate values ;) > >My real answer should have been, I take *ALL* datapoints that I can find >and turn them into a normalized valuation. It is NOT a datapoint, but a >report on the current price as dictated by the market as a whole. To say >that I'm "just one data point" entirely misses the point of what an >"appraisal" is. To decry the notion that you're "just one data point" entirely misses the point of what a "market" or a "mailing list" is. There's nothing wrong with being a well-known or respected expert, but you can't forget that there's no certification involved. I hope you aren't disappointed when someone doesn't respect what you're saying. It's not your fault. I made my remark because you expressed surprise that someone wasn't listening. Perhaps some readers missed your last long (and no doubt valuable because it was correct) diatribe when it flew past last time, and they missed it in the archives. Because this is a mailing list, we are forever doomed to repeat ourselves. Perhaps the KB or Wiki will help there. I suspect there are other classic computer experts out there who don't read this list. Some experts might not enjoy the flamefests or taking the bait of trolls. It might take a lifetime for an expert to become known as "The Expert" in some aspect of this type of collecting or to become well-known for providing reputable insurance-quality valuations. Knowing the trend of eBay prices is a perfectly valid sub-genre of valuations. It's a great place to unload items for cash. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 09:22:45 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:22:45 -0500 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050412185948.X52698@shell.lmi.net> References: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050412185948.X52698@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413090208.04dda170@mail> At 09:07 PM 4/12/2005, you wrote: >On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Classic Computers wrote: >> GW stands for Gordon Whitten, a Microsoft employee. >> If you Google gw-basic, you'll find a couple of places >> that say Greg Whitten, but it's Gordon. > >There have apparently been both a Gordon Whitten AND a Greg Whitten at >Microsoft at various times. Neither is in the 1978 photo that shows the >original 11 people of Micro-Soft. > >If you do, indeed, Google "gw-basic" or "gw-basic whitten", then you will >find dozens of places that say "GREG Whitten" as the namesake of GW-BASIC, >and Google does not index ANY sites that say that "Gordon Whitten" was the >namesake. Is there a more reliable source for your assertion than Google? At least one of the Wiki articles point to Joel Spolsky's page at http://www.joelonsoftware.com/printerFriendly/articles/TwoStories.html , where he describes a meeting during his employment at Microsoft: "This seemed to piss off a guy named Greg Whitten who headed up the App Architecture group. Now, Greg was something like Microsoft employee number 6. He had been around forever; nobody could quite point to anything he had done but apparently he had lunch with Bill Gates a lot and GW-BASIC was named after him." http://www.pcmag.co.uk/analysis/74182 tells another anecdote from the book "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" where Greg Whitten is the head of a graphics group in the autumn of '83. A new hire uncovers a bug in BASIC's flood-fill, shows his fix to Whitten and Gates and he's told the error was in Gates' code. However, other Chapter One excerpts of the same book such as http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/books/chap1/barbariansledbybillgates.htm say his name is Gordon Whitten. Or maybe "Gordo" was a nickname and someone assumed it meant Gordon although his real name was Greg. I'm not well-acquainted with this particular book, but I read somewhere it was co-written by Pam Edstrom's daughter and a Microsoft employee, so perhaps they didn't do top-quality fact-checking. The "GW" matches "Gates, William" too. Dr. Greg Whitten looks reachable at http://www.numerix.com/company/execMgmt.htm, too. I'll ask him to reconcile the stories. - John From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 13 09:31:36 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:31:36 -0600 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425D2D48.1000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >Damn! The one place I thought I had one up on you... > >OK Sellam, come clean. What have you managed to acquire? > >Bill > > The hard copy must be 3 or 4 lbs at least. Ducks and runs ... Ben alias woodelf PS. The impressive thing is that the people with the large computer collections have vast amounts of knowlage about the computers they have. Something that a average collector does not seem to have now days. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 09:39:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 07:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413083910.04dda170@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > >My real answer should have been, I take *ALL* datapoints that I can find > >and turn them into a normalized valuation. It is NOT a datapoint, but a > >report on the current price as dictated by the market as a whole. To say > >that I'm "just one data point" entirely misses the point of what an > >"appraisal" is. > > To decry the notion that you're "just one data point" entirely misses the > point of what a "market" or a "mailing list" is. There's nothing > wrong with being a well-known or respected expert, but you can't Criticism is welcome; insults are not taken so well ;) And I'm sorry if I got a bit touchy after being described as a "dealer", but in my opinion that word has a negative connotation in this hobby, and I don't want people to be left with the wrong impression of just what it is I do. And in case you don't pay attention to signatures, mine has included a link to the VintageTech website for at least the past four years, and a quick stroll through the pages of my website explains EXACTLY what I do. No where on that website has it ever (and you can check with www.archive.org) said that I buy & sell computers. And if you're really paying attention, you'll notice that the "Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers" included in my signature is followed by "at http://marketplace.vintage.org", and a quick stroll over there quickly reveals it's a trading place for collectors that I happen to host along with Patrick Rigney. > forget that there's no certification involved. I hope you aren't > disappointed when someone doesn't respect what you're saying. > It's not your fault. In fact, there is certification available: http://www.appraisers.org/ I just have not yet had a need to go that full route, though I have studied and do follow their principles, practices, and code of ethics. It's in my best interest to do so in case I ever have to defend a valuation for a client if, for example, they were to get audited or if they were trying to recover compensation for a loss. What I was trying to explain with my previous message was that there's a difference between watching eBay and using that as a guide versus having a wide breadth and depth of experience and knowledge coupled with a long historical outlook and therefore having a strongly developed instinct for what things are "worth". I'm not saying I'm the only one here who knows how to do this...far from it, as I know of at least half a dozen people here who's valuations I would trust and who could just as authoritatively provide appraisals if they chose to do that. But I have made it my business to understand this market, and I'm confident that I do, and to have people constantly hold up eBay as the "market" is bothersome to me. The real problem in all this is that this hobby, as a whole, is so un/mis-informed when it comes to the values of old computers that you consistently get these wild price fluctuations. And the fact that most of the actual sales occur through eBay only exacerbates the problem, because the prices can and do wildly fluctuate there as well. A stupid bidding war can erupt between two inexperienced bidders who let their emotions take them for a ride, driving up the price to a ridiculous level for something that is a clearly being over-valued by both. And yet others get lucky by using the search engine creatively to find deals hidden away where others don't find them, and walk away with virtual steals. My apologies in advance to the person who posted the message, but a perfect example is the person who just yesterday extrapolated a $300 valuation for a KIM-1 based on a lot that sold for $642. This is an entirely invalid approach to valuing something. Aside from the fact that this is but one data point, there might've been something in the lot more desirable than the KIM-1 (in this case two of them) itself. And in fact there was, arguably. The S-100 bus attachment in that auction is rare and somewhat desirable to those who collect KIM-1 stuff or SBCs in general, and I know some people would probably pay more for that then a KIM-1. How many times does it need to be repeated that eBay is NOT the Market? I know a lot of people got into this hobby by assembling their collection from eBay and so it is all they know, but understand that eBay is ONE PART of the Market, and to think that the world is eBay, and eBay is flat, and you fall off the world at the edges is foolish. If you want to use auction results as a valuation, you would be better served to use the sales numbers at the Vintage Computer Marketplace. It consists of a MUCH BETTER informed group of users (buyers and sellers alike) and therefore the sales are way more consistent with what I would consider "actual market value". It doesn't get nearly the volume that eBay does, but we're hoping to change that soon. In the meantime, if anyone wants a quick & dirty valuation of something, I'll be happy to provide a valuation via e-mail. You can then couple my response with whatever other information you have to make a much more informed decision to buy or sell. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 13 10:06:45 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:06:45 -0400 Subject: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats Message-ID: <0IEW006UY4MNM4W1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Looking for TRS-80 manufacturing stats > From: "Chandra Bajpai" > >How about the Model I & Model III? > >I would think they would be 50K+ of each. > >-Chandra I was with RS back then and the M1 was over 250,000. At the end of the first year it was said by (might have been Phil North) We've sold more computers than all the big guys combined. Also watch the numbers. Tandy had nearly 8000 stores and if each sold five in a year that 40,000. They were and still are a volume based company. Allison From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 13 10:11:37 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:11:37 -0700 Subject: Ebay Poll, was Re: knowledgebase request Message-ID: <425D36A9.46247D9D@rain.org> I love the concept, and don't respect the people running it with the policies, distortions, and outright lies they seem comfortable with. Ebay has its uses, but the main one is to allow people who are either ignorant of or are too lazy to work with other distribution channels. Hmmm, maybe most of us :). I've gotten some great deals there but for the most part, there is too much "noise". I've sold some stuff at good prices there, but my belief is that it is for the most part, really only of value for higher end products ... say $100 plus. > > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > Maybe we can have a poll to see who likes ebay , who hates ebay, and who > aren't sure :) > > Personally I like it, while it can drive up prices for things it has also > caused others to auction them instead of dumping them. > > Greed has saved many systems that would otherwise be scrapped. Of course > there are others that decide to part something out trying maximize the > all-mighty dollar. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 10:47:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 08:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > OSI stuff seemed to be the hardest thing to get a hold of for me, but > > eventually I started to get them. I now have about 5-6 OSI systems of > > various models, including an unbuilt Superboard kit ;) > > Damn! The one place I thought I had one up on you... Well, you do have that extremely rare OSI single-board (what model was that again?) I did consider clubbing you in the back of the head and running off with it at VCF East but there would've been too many witnesses. > OK Sellam, come clean. What have you managed to acquire? >From what I can see and not see but remember having: Challenger 2P Challenger 1 Challenger C4P Superboard kit (unbuilt) And I think one other I'm forgetting. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 13 11:00:59 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:00:59 -0700 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > Criticism is welcome; insults are not taken so well ;) And I'm sorry if I > got a bit touchy after being described as a "dealer", but in my opinion > that word has a negative connotation in this hobby, and I don't want > people to be left with the wrong impression of just what it is I do. And > in case you don't pay attention to signatures, mine has included a link to > the VintageTech website for at least the past four years, and a quick > stroll through the pages of my website explains EXACTLY what I do. No > where on that website has it ever (and you can check with www.archive.org) > said that I buy & sell computers. And if you're really paying attention, > you'll notice that the "Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers" included in my > signature is followed by "at http://marketplace.vintage.org", and a quick > stroll over there quickly reveals it's a trading place for collectors > that I happen to host along with Patrick Rigney. Admittedly, you have a name and a reputation, and many people know who you are. However, expecting everyone to have known or cared enough to follow your links and figured out who you are and what you do, is a bit of a stretch. I have followed the links, and still have, at best, a hazy notion of how your days are spent. Which is (or should be) OK. > > forget that there's no certification involved. I hope you aren't > > disappointed when someone doesn't respect what you're saying. > > It's not your fault. I think the point was that we all wish everyone else appreciated our opinions. I certainly feel the world undervalues my opinions; I put a lot of work into forming them, after all. But they don't value my opinions as I do, and they won't. (At least that's what I got out of it.) > What I was trying to explain with my previous message was that there's a > difference between watching eBay and using that as a guide versus having a > wide breadth and depth of experience and knowledge coupled with a long > historical outlook and therefore having a strongly developed instinct for > what things are "worth". I'm not saying I'm the only one here who knows > how to do this...far from it, as I know of at least half a dozen people > here who's valuations I would trust and who could just as authoritatively > provide appraisals if they chose to do that. But I have made it my > business to understand this market, and I'm confident that I do, and to > have people constantly hold up eBay as the "market" is bothersome to me. I understand your frustration, but I still disagree. Ebay is "the market" in a sense similar to the way we say wall street is "the market". That is the place where large (relatively) numbers of buyers and sellers are doing business. It simply does not matter that you, or Warren Buffet, can get better deals elsewhere. That may get a knee jerk, so let me make an example. I recently acquired a BC80M cable. When I acquired this cable, I looked at various dealers who stock obsolete DEC cables, and I saw prices from $150-$225. Those prices make sense to me. If I had a machine that was down, and I needed it up right now, those prices are reasonable, probably even cheap, to get it up again with a minimum of fuss. I also figure the price on eBay would be about half that. But with eBay, I have to wait for someone to list it, and take my chances with the others that want it. The extra $80 that the dealer wants, is the price of the speed, convenience, and security. It goes to cover the dealer's costs in providing that to me. There is a scrap dealer here in town I could have asked about the cable. I might have gotten it for substantially less than the eBay price. I certainly would have, if shipping were involved. But I'd have saved him the trouble of listing it, shipping it, etc. Ebay and the dealer also spare me the hassle of cruising dozens of surplus places, looking for that darn BC80M cable. (Actually, I was looking for BC80J, but BC80M will do.) On the other hand, what I actually paid for my cable was $0. Nada. A friend happens to have one, and will ship it to me as a favor. Does that mean the value of the item is $0? No. It means I have better connections than the average guy. So, in my opinion, does getting it from the scrap dealer. Each of these venues has a rational price for the item. (Even my friend, who is no doubt hoping I can help figure out his power supply problem.) Which one we call "the market" should depend on which is available to the average buyer. > The real problem in all this is that this hobby, as a whole, is so > un/mis-informed when it comes to the values of old computers that you > consistently get these wild price fluctuations. And the fact that most of > the actual sales occur through eBay only exacerbates the problem, because > the prices can and do wildly fluctuate there as well. A stupid bidding > war can erupt between two inexperienced bidders who let their emotions > take them for a ride, driving up the price to a ridiculous level for > something that is a clearly being over-valued by both. And yet others > get lucky by using the search engine creatively to find deals hidden away > where others don't find them, and walk away with virtual steals. I think the price fluctuations are easily explained by people trying to optimize their convenience, etc. I don't see that as irrational. People who want it *now* will ocasionally skew eBay prices toward dealer prices (and that's OK). It's also OK that some put in extra work and pay for the item that way, rather than with cash. > How many times does it need to be repeated that eBay is NOT the Market? I > know a lot of people got into this hobby by assembling their collection > from eBay and so it is all they know, but understand that eBay is ONE PART > of the Market, and to think that the world is eBay, and eBay is flat, and > you fall off the world at the edges is foolish. Sure, but we still have the semantic quibble about what people mean when they say "the market" :-). > If you want to use auction results as a valuation, you would be better > served to use the sales numbers at the Vintage Computer Marketplace. It > consists of a MUCH BETTER informed group of users (buyers and sellers > alike) and therefore the sales are way more consistent with what I would > consider "actual market value". It doesn't get nearly the volume that > eBay does, but we're hoping to change that soon. Just a speculation, but I suspect the prices there will get more like eBay's, if and when you get the volume. > In the meantime, if anyone wants a quick & dirty valuation of something, > I'll be happy to provide a valuation via e-mail. You can then couple my > response with whatever other information you have to make a much more > informed decision to buy or sell. That is a valuable service. Thanks! Vince From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Apr 13 11:23:09 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:23:09 -0500 Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) References: <20050412031719.23000.qmail@web51102.mail.yahoo.com><20050412205638.11c74cb1.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <007201c54045$1680d470$64406b43@66067007> I have a like new black metal case with wooden sides and a small wooden top door for one of my Sym-1's. I got it and the Sym-1 from the original owner (I got the receipt for the case $199.99) a few years back. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) > On 4/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: >> Being the 'root for the underdog' sort of person, I'd say 'Synertec >> rulez, MOS sux' > > Well... since I _have_ a SYM-1, and had the books for it many, many > years prior to locating the computer (like 20 years earlier), I'm > pretty fond of the SYM-1. I also like the fact that the SYM-1 does > _not_ use mask programmed parts (but the KIM-1 does). Other than > that, they are really about the same machine. From a programming > standpoint, I am unaware of any significant differences. I know they > could share peripherals. > > Speaking of peripherals, I remember lots of ads back in the day, > including one for an S-100 chassis for the SYM/KIM. I'd love to see > schematics for that, especially since if I ever have one, I'll > probably have to make my own rather than find one in the wild. I have > a few S-100 cards now (something I didn't have back in my PET days), > and it might be fun to do some driver coding for interesting things. > > I _do_ have (somewhere) the stuff relevant to hooking Commodore IEC > peripherals (1541, 1520, 1526...) to a SYM. That's another thing that > would be fun to implement... disks and files on a 6502 SBC. > > So many 6502 projects, so little time. > > -ethan > > From news at computercollector.com Wed Apr 13 11:52:01 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:52:01 -0400 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504131650.j3DGoMi6039113@dewey.classiccmp.org> I think a bigger problem, and one that needs to be solved first, is determining the size and scope of our hobby. How can even experts like Sellam say "this hobby, as a whole, is so un/mis-informed..." when we're not sure what that "whole" is in the first place? How many collectors exist in the world? For the "active" colletors, it's not hard to figure out. There are 800-1,000 people in the classiccmp lists. My newsletter has several hundred unique readers who aren't on classiccmp. Erik Klein's vcforum has hundreds (thousands?) more. Older sites like old-computers.com may have thousands of followers. Sellam's VCF mailing list is huge too. These various resources are just a starting point, but I think it is a safe estimate to say there are maybe 5,000-10,000 "active" collectors in the world. (You have to consider ALL of the hobby web sites, museums, niches, etc. to understand why I'm arriving at this five-figure number -- there are a lot more than we initially think of.) But here's the neat part: for every active collector, how many other people just happen to own one or a few vintage computers, for sentimental reasons? How many of them don't see themselves as "collectors" per se, but just as ordinary nerds, for whom it just makes sense that really old computers are appealing? People who don't use the term "vintage" to describe the old Commodore they never got rid of, and who certainly don't know the term VCF...? And what about the vintage videogame hobby, calculator collectors, etc. -- do we count them? What is the ratio? For each active member of our hobby, maybe there are two or three people who are in the hobby and just don't know it yet. :) So maybe there there 15,000, 20,000 collectors globally. Once we have a real idea of the magic number, then we have to consider: are those of us here on classiccmp the meat of the hobby, or just the extremists? Are we the main curve, or the spike to be removed from the sample? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:40 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... VCF wrote: The real problem in all this is that this hobby, as a whole, is so un/mis-informed when it comes to the values of old computers that you consistently get these wild price fluctuations. From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl Wed Apr 13 09:55:35 2005 From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:55:35 +0200 Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb, IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AAAF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. --fred From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 13:15:45 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:15:45 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > OSI stuff seemed to be the hardest thing to get a hold of for me, but > > > eventually I started to get them. I now have about 5-6 OSI systems of > > > various models, including an unbuilt Superboard kit ;) > > > > Damn! The one place I thought I had one up on you... > > Well, you do have that extremely rare OSI single-board (what model was > that again?) I did consider clubbing you in the back of the head and > running off with it at VCF East but there would've been too many > witnesses. I _WISH_ that were mine, but Bob Maxwell and I were babysitting it for... Dang! I seem to have lost a few brain cells and can't remember who the owner was. I was sorely tempted to try to casually pack it up with my stuff at the end of the show. > > OK Sellam, come clean. What have you managed to acquire? > > >From what I can see and not see but remember having: > > Challenger 2P Blue/black? Integrated keyboard (C2-4P)? Floppies? > Challenger 1 You mean a C1P or a first series Challenger? > Challenger C4P > Superboard kit (unbuilt) Do you have the original packaging with it (I would guess so)? If so, I would love to see some pictures of it. Bill From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed Apr 13 13:43:28 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb, IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AAAF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: On 13-Apr-2005 Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. And yet you don't tell us where they are located. -Philip From liste at artware.qc.ca Wed Apr 13 13:43:28 2005 From: liste at artware.qc.ca (liste at artware.qc.ca) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:43:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb, IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AAAF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: On 13-Apr-2005 Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. And yet you don't tell us where they are located. -Philip From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 13:42:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:42:35 -0400 Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb,IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AAAF@mwsrv04.microwalt.n l> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413144235.00b39de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Where are they located? At 04:55 PM 4/13/05 +0200, you wrote: >Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. > >--fred > > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 13:42:35 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:42:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > However, expecting everyone to have known or cared enough to follow your > links and figured out who you are and what you do, is a bit of a stretch. I > have followed the links, and still have, at best, a hazy notion of how your > days are spent. Which is (or should be) OK. I don't understand how anyone could confuse me with being a "dealer". > I understand your frustration, but I still disagree. Ebay is "the market" > in a sense similar to the way we say wall street is "the market". That is > the place where large (relatively) numbers of buyers and sellers are doing > business. It simply does not matter that you, or Warren Buffet, can get > better deals elsewhere. I'm afraid you've boiled economics down to a simply unreal and nonsensical interpretation. > Each of these venues has a rational price for the item. (Even my friend, > who is no doubt hoping I can help figure out his power supply problem.) > Which one we call "the market" should depend on which is available to the > average buyer. They are all part of The Market. There is no one place that you go to and that is "The Market(TM)" with the reference prices for the rest of the world to follow. What you mentioned (that I snipped) are all various data points of The Market. Somewhere in there is The Market Value. You are confusing points in The Market with The Market itself. > > How many times does it need to be repeated that eBay is NOT the Market? I > > know a lot of people got into this hobby by assembling their collection > > from eBay and so it is all they know, but understand that eBay is ONE PART > > of the Market, and to think that the world is eBay, and eBay is flat, and > > you fall off the world at the edges is foolish. > > Sure, but we still have the semantic quibble about what people mean when > they say "the market" :-). Sure, and some people can be correct when they use that term while others will be incorrect, or will be using it in an incomplete sense. If we are going to agree to use a common language we must also agree to use common definitions of the words in that language. Until now, I've never seen anyone try to define "The Market" as "eBay". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 13:58:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:58:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Challenger 2P > > Blue/black? Integrated keyboard (C2-4P)? Floppies? Oh, sorry. I didn't know all these details mattered :) It's blue; integrated keyboard. I can't remember if this one has floppies. I have another one which may be a II that did come with at least one floppy drive. > > Challenger 1 > > You mean a C1P or a first series Challenger? Um, dang. Will have to double check later today. > > Challenger C4P In the original box, with the dual 8" floppy drive subsystem (also in the original box). > > Superboard kit (unbuilt) > > Do you have the original packaging with it (I would guess so)? If so, > I would love to see some pictures of it. It's a pretty normal looking box. When I dig it out next (I think I might know where it is) I'll snap several photos. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 14:06:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:06:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) Message-ID: <200504131906.MAA01667@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 4/12/05, Scott Stevens wrote: >> Being the 'root for the underdog' sort of person, I'd say 'Synertec rulez, MOS sux' > >Well... since I _have_ a SYM-1, and had the books for it many, many >years prior to locating the computer (like 20 years earlier), I'm >pretty fond of the SYM-1. I also like the fact that the SYM-1 does >_not_ use mask programmed parts (but the KIM-1 does). Other than >that, they are really about the same machine. From a programming >standpoint, I am unaware of any significant differences. I know they >could share peripherals. > >Speaking of peripherals, I remember lots of ads back in the day, >including one for an S-100 chassis for the SYM/KIM. I'd love to see >schematics for that, especially since if I ever have one, I'll >probably have to make my own rather than find one in the wild. I have >a few S-100 cards now (something I didn't have back in my PET days), >and it might be fun to do some driver coding for interesting things. Hi There were actually two S-100 bus extensions on ebay recently. There was the one that was stated as such and there was one that was described as a controller for a floppy drive and drive ( I forget which machine it was stated as being for, SYM1, KIM1 or R65 ). > >I _do_ have (somewhere) the stuff relevant to hooking Commodore IEC >peripherals (1541, 1520, 1526...) to a SYM. That's another thing that >would be fun to implement... disks and files on a 6502 SBC. I do have a card that was intended to be used with the SYM-1 to drive floppies. When I got it, it was missing the code ROM and a data bus buffer. I've since located the code but the buffer chip has been a problem. It is one of those oddball national chips that can not be easily replaces by a '245 :( If I ever get one, I should be able to bring up the original SYM DOS that was really limited. Still, it would be fun. Dwight > >So many 6502 projects, so little time. > >-ethan > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 13 14:09:37 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:09:37 +0100 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c5405c$5855e400$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Tony Duell wrote: > This reminded me of another device I have. It calles itself an > 'InterView'. I forget who made it, maybe Trend. It's clearly > some kind of protocol analyser. Alas it was dropped by an > idiot long before I got it. The result is that the card cage > is distorted (but the PCBs are all intact), the CRT has left > its tension band (which scares the heck out of me!), and the > cartridge tape drive (DC100-size tapes) is in many bits. > Another project for a rainy day... The Interview 7000 manuals on the shelf say Atlantic Research Coporation on the back. The Interview 8000 manual says Telenex on the spine (the back says Telenex. AR Test Systems - I assume a new division was bornized somewhere along the line ...). I don't recall whether it is a 7000 or 8000 (or both!) I have in storage, but neither had been dropped when last I looked. I don't think I ever used them in anger - mostly I used the HP 4xxx protocol analysers (and now I have one or more of those in storage too - I don't recall if they are TU58 variants or 3.5" drive variants ...) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Wed Apr 13 14:20:36 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:20:36 +0100 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: Message-ID: <00d201c5405d$df7a5640$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Tony Duell" > > I also have a crazy decvice called a 'Ferret'. > >And then there's the TDMS5 I have a Ferret, and a TDMS (can't remeber if it's a 5 or 6). The TDMS has an irritating fault with the disrtribuitor (lots of cross connected triodes in a ring circuit), which I've never got to the bottom of , mainly 'cause I can't figure out how it works....... The Ferret is untested, as it has only recently arrived, and is far to complicated to just dive in. I also have a TSG40, which is a telegraph signal generator, which will do 5, 7 or 8 unit code, at variable speeds from 40 Baud up. Tony, I also have two scrap TDMS chassis (a 5 and a 6), which have had the polar relays, CRT's and valves removed, but they do still have the transformers, switches and sockets. Do you need any spares, before they get cannabalised? Jim. From James at jdfogg.com Wed Apr 13 14:37:12 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:37:12 -0400 Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb, IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458C6@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb,IBM PS/30 > (mdl 30) w/mon and kb > > Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. > > --fred I'd definitely be interested, but where are you? From tomj at wps.com Wed Apr 13 14:37:25 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:37:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050413123326.H1060@localhost> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these days > for what they represent. The problem with all of these older Tek devices, as pretty much everyone who uses them for some time discovers, is that they soon enough die of electromechanical issues -- the switches get touchy, intermittent, then die -- and are essentially unrepairable. It's too bad, as the 465's and the 7xxx's are fine scopes, and the lowest-cost good quality scope I know of (the DSO Tek table-radio-sized jobs, TDS-???), 60 MHz/100MHz, run close to $900. From tomj at wps.com Wed Apr 13 14:38:58 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050413123748.H1060@localhost> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > I had a 'filter' on my BBS because one single user had an annoying habit > of typing in ALL CAPS. And he didn't have an all-caps terminal to use > as an excuse. So one night I dug in and hacked the Pascal code (this > was a WWIV BBS) to not allow any but the first letter in an entered word > to be upper case (it would automatically force all following letters to > lower case until some whitespace occured). Next time Mister All-Caps > logged in he had a fit. What a riot online life was those days... I too ran a lot of BBSs for a lot of years, and the one thing I could never understand is, why did sysops ever care about such things? I agree that ALL CAPS IS LIKE YELLING but so what? From tomj at wps.com Wed Apr 13 14:45:42 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050413123906.X1060@localhost> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Classic Computers wrote: > GW stands for Gordon Whitten, a Microsoft employee. > If you Google gw-basic, you'll find a couple of places > that say Greg Whitten, but it's Gordon. I have no facts, other than I recall when GWBASIC was new, and I recall it as "gee whiz basic". For what that memory is worth. Is there a contemporary (1980-ish) document that states this alleged fact? That's the only thing that would convince me. It sounds like the retroactive renaming of the unix mail client pine. The man page now says "Program for Internet News and Email" but I am quite certain -- and can probably dig up docs -- that in the early 1990's it used to mean "Pine Is Not Elm", elm being a pine-like predecessor (nice tautology, huh?!). But in the corporate oughts (2x0x) that is too humane I guess. From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 13 14:45:39 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:45:39 -0700 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > > Sure, but we still have the semantic quibble about what people mean when > > they say "the market" :-). > > Sure, and some people can be correct when they use that term while others > will be incorrect, or will be using it in an incomplete sense. If we are > going to agree to use a common language we must also agree to use common > definitions of the words in that language. Until now, I've never seen > anyone try to define "The Market" as "eBay". I think it's like confusing Silicon Valley (or Portland, Oregon) with the world :-). Maybe if I lived and worked where you do, I would see hundreds of different venues doing a brisk business in this stuff. As it is, I see one local scrap guy (there are other local scrap guys, but they tend to specialize in stuff I'm not interested in). I also see eBay, the commercial dealers on the Internet, and private deals with people I know from the list. And that's pretty much it. So, then we'd have to ask if the market in places like Silicon Valley so dwarfs the rest of the planet that *they* should be declared "the market". I think the term "the market" should refer to wherever the bulk of the available stuff trades, (provided that the venues included are actually open to the general public). "Market value" should refer to something like the median value in the distribution of the publicly available trades. (Though that is a simplification that ignores the reasons there are different venues with different prices in the first place.) Vince From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Apr 13 14:45:41 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:45:41 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123326.H1060@localhost> Message-ID: <16989.30437.970860.986469@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: >> The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these >> days for what they represent. Tom> The problem with all of these older Tek devices, as pretty much Tom> everyone who uses them for some time discovers, is that they Tom> soon enough die of electromechanical issues -- the switches get Tom> touchy, intermittent, then die -- and are essentially Tom> unrepairable. That hasn't been my experience with any of them, and given the superb quality of those devices I would find it surprising if that were common. My 535 and my 7603 both worked very well. The only 535 problem was a tube problem (HT rectifier -- obtainable though expensive and not well known). paul From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Apr 13 14:56:12 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:56:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: In Spamo Veritas Message-ID: From a bit of spam that I deleted, but this caught my eye and I parsed it in terms of the List Topic - not what it actually refers to... Judgment Processor Does in have an 'impartiality pipeline'? Cheers John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 14:49:14 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:49:14 -0500 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413090208.04dda170@mail> References: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050412185948.X52698@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050413090208.04dda170@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> Here's a definitive response from Dr. Greg Whitten on this early history of Microsoft's BASIC, as well as other interesting material on the history of Microsoft's scripting languages, up to present-day .NET technologies. - John Subject: FW: GW-Basic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-class: urn:content-classes:message Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 10:59:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5.7226.0 Message-ID: <5D48D9BE244AF5438B62E7BC4FBBF21D0A044A at medina-mail.whitten.net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: GW-Basic Thread-Index: AcVAPieWGJjLtpsESryrJFxdQKZpmQAAH5pw From: "Gregory Whitten" To: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pc.threedee.com id j3DHL4O23678 Status: John, If GW-BASIC is named for anyone, it is probably me because I developed the Microsoft BASIC language standards in the BASIC Compiler line. The BASIC interpreter was much harder to extend and usually followed afterwards. The other story is that it stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC and it sounded good to the Japanese OEMs at the time because it had graphics features added to the language. Some of them were similar to BASIC extensions that I had made to Microsoft BASIC when I worked previously at Intelligent Systems Corporation which was a Microsoft OEM. ISC was probably the only Microsoft OEM that actually had the source code for the products at that time because I had to extensively modify them to run on our more restricted memory machines. I left ISC in 1979 to join Microsoft as Director of New Products (BASIC Compiler, APL, and graphics - APL never shipped). I don't know what my exact employee number was - probably around 16. The GW-BASIC name stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC. The GW- name was picked by Bill Gates. He is the one who knows whether it was Gee-Whiz or after me because it has been used both ways. I did set the directions for the BASIC language features after joining the company in 1979. I also introduced the first object-oriented device drive interfaces into BASIC (essentially the first use of C++-style vtables in 1979 well before C++) and created the operating system abstraction layer that was used to port of the Microsoft's language products to many operating systems. Before I got there, each OS port was done by conditional compilation scattered through out the source code. After I did this work, it usually took one-half a day to port all of our products to a new OS instead of weeks except for the BASIC Interpreter which I did the abstraction layer for later. On the Joel Spolsky subject he was a basically ignorant junior employee who left Microsoft after a short number of years. His short sighted decisions to take the VB macro language in Excel in its own directions caused 6 other major applications that were doing BASIC macro languages to diverge and not be able to share any macro programs between the applications. He made other similarly stupid decisions like creating a custom programming interface for BASIC in Excel instead of sharing a common interface as strongly recommended. The applications group spent 30 man-years integrating custom interfaces for each application with the Office 95 applications. In Office 98 they tossed it all and went back to my original suggestion which only took 1.5 man-years to develop and provided better commonality and learning between the applications. I was one of the three original Chief Software Architects at Microsoft. I initially managed the Language development groups and graphics products. I was the major designer for the BASIC language and compiler, the memory models (including near and far) used by Microsoft languages and operating systems - (DOS, Windows, OS/2, and XENIX - this is the reason plus my design to allow preemptive multitasking in real mode that Windows was almost trivial to move to protect mode - all of the segmented real-mode apps just ran by original design that the Windows team itself did not fully comprehend), the runtime libraries that allowed all of Microsoft's languages to interoperate (BASIC, Fortran, Pascal, COBOL, and C). I started the Microsoft's graphics efforts including the Windows project. Marline Eller and Rao Remula worked for me. I was responsible for the infamous assembly language WINDOWS.INC macros and memory segmentation. I did the design for the multi-layered GDI which was implemented by Marlin Eller who worked for me (co-author of the Barbarian at the Gates). I was the architect and designed the incremental compiler technology and multi-stage pseudo-code design for QuickBASIC 4.0 which carried through VB 6.0. That pcode is much faster than .NET's CIL or the pcode used in Excel which I showed the Excel team how to speed up so that it was faster than Lotus 1-2-3. I did a few other "minor" things (when I was not having lunch with Bill) like setting the object technology strategy for the entire company including working on the design of OS/2 and an object oriented version of OS/2 that never shipped because of the divorce with IBM. I shifted from being Chief Software Architect of Langauges to Applications in 1988. I was the chief architect for OLE and COM and did all of the original requirement analyses for the feature breadth of OLE to support compound documents across 19 applications for release with Windows 95. This is what let Office 95 distance itself from Lotus who was late supporting good application interoperability. The design for OLE and COM had location transparency I also personally managed the training of Microsoft's software architects and the advanced object oriented training for component software design in the company's products. It was my insights into multi-vendor component oriented systems using interfaces that changed the object oriented world. I was Microsoft's original representative for the OMG (Object Management Group). I made the decision not to educate the OMG on the true requirements for component software systems and left them to go in their own failed directions based on implementation inheritance software engineering techniques which don't work for systems. They eventually changed their model in CORBA 3.0 to include interfaces by which time they were irrelevant. I also personally wrote the strategy roadmap (95 pages) that was used by Paul Maritz to eventually pull together the .NET technology pieces. As you can see, I personally lead the efforts for every predecessor technology that was used in .NET. That is why I was the only Chief Software Architect that did true architecture in a company-wide strategic context. Unfortunately, for Microsoft and .NET, I left the company in 1998. The .NET team made a number of significant mistakes in implementing support for component oriented software because they were new and unfamiliar with COM. They are still not fixed today and to build truly innovative scalable distributed systems one has to create a layer over the .NET object model. Pam Edstrom's daughter made so many mistakes in her book that it is not a credible piece of work. My brother Gordon did work in my languages group initially and later worked for Marlin Eller on a post-Windows project. I was Microsoft's first Ph.D. employee. I received my Ph.D. from Harvard in Applied Mathematics in 1978. I was a world class expert in graph theory, analysis of algorithms, sparse matrix algorithms for linear systems, numerical analysis, and non-linear multi-variate time series analyis before arriving at Microsoft to write language compilers. I wrote survey papers for and with Robert Tarjan and others on graph theory while I was working on my degree. While an undergraduate at University of Virginia from 1970-1973, I rewrote about 30% of HP's 2000 series BASIC Timesharing System to improve the BASIC language and OS features to make it more suitable for computer aided instruction in the Engineering School. I have a long history with improving BASIC since 1970. I added many new statements, recursive subroutines and functions with parameters, inter-language calling, data structures, include files and separate compilation units, etc. I am sorry about the long winded response, but I felt it was time to straighten out some of the actual facts surrounding the early days of Microsoft that are commonly misreported. Gregory Whitten From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 13 15:03:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:03:43 +0000 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050413123906.X1060@localhost> References: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050413123906.X1060@localhost> Message-ID: <1113422623.5139.37.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 12:45 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Classic Computers wrote: > It sounds like the retroactive renaming of the unix mail client > pine. The man page now says "Program for Internet News and Email" > but I am quite certain -- and can probably dig up docs -- that in > the early 1990's it used to mean "Pine Is Not Elm" FWIW, I remember that too.... From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 15:01:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:01:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > I think it's like confusing Silicon Valley (or Portland, Oregon) with the > world :-). Maybe if I lived and worked where you do, I would see hundreds > of different venues doing a brisk business in this stuff. As it is, I see > one local scrap guy (there are other local scrap guys, but they tend to > specialize in stuff I'm not interested in). I also see eBay, the commercial > dealers on the Internet, and private deals with people I know from the list. > And that's pretty much it. > > So, then we'd have to ask if the market in places like Silicon Valley so > dwarfs the rest of the planet that *they* should be declared "the market". > > I think the term "the market" should refer to wherever the bulk of the > available stuff trades, (provided that the venues included are actually open > to the general public). "Market value" should refer to something like the > median value in the distribution of the publicly available trades. (Though > that is a simplification that ignores the reasons there are different venues > with different prices in the first place.) Hi Vince. I think the myopia you're accusing me of having is affecting you. When I say The Market I mean the pool of sales that occurs on a global basis. I'm not talking about one particular geographic region or any one spot on the Internet. The Market, by definition, is a conglomeration of all sales happening at all times in all places. I can't say that I have access to "all sales happening at all times in all places", but I also don't just rely on one particular venue and call that "The Market". That's just wrong and invalid. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 15:05:27 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:05:27 -0500 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <00b201c54061$5f609e20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <00b201c54061$5f609e20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413150221.050a4138@mail> At 02:45 PM 4/13/2005, vrs wrote: >I think it's like confusing Silicon Valley (or Portland, Oregon) with the >world :-). Maybe if I lived and worked where you do, I would see hundreds >of different venues doing a brisk business in this stuff. [...] >I think the term "the market" should refer to wherever the bulk of the >available stuff trades, (provided that the venues included are actually open >to the general public). There is no "there" there. There will always be tremendous variation in regional density of particular items, and this necessarily affects the price, which is why arbitrage flourishes on eBay. I've never seen most of these BBC micros in person, for example, but I'm sure they're quite common across the pond. There may have been a couple dozen Teraks at a half-dozen universities around the US, but they may not have ever existed in other areas of the country. You have to consider where the items were commonly sold as well as where they were commonly scrapped. - John From vrs at msn.com Wed Apr 13 15:35:46 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:35:46 -0700 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: > I think the myopia you're accusing me of having is affecting you. When I > say The Market I mean the pool of sales that occurs on a global basis. > I'm not talking about one particular geographic region or any one spot on > the Internet. The Market, by definition, is a conglomeration of all sales > happening at all times in all places. It is clear that the world looks different from our various perspectives. I mostly agree with your definition of "the market", but would exclude private sales, since by their nature they make price competition difficult (at best). > I can't say that I have access to "all sales happening at all times in all > places", but I also don't just rely on one particular venue and call that > "The Market". That's just wrong and invalid. Agreed, unless the venue truly dwarfs the others under consideration. (Which, from my limited perspective, eBay does, and by far.) Vince From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 15:37:58 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:37:58 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > Well, you do have that extremely rare OSI single-board (what model was > > that again?) I did consider clubbing you in the back of the head and > > running off with it at VCF East but there would've been too many > > witnesses. > > I _WISH_ that were mine, but Bob Maxwell and I were babysitting it for... > Dang! I seem to have lost a few brain cells and can't remember who the > owner was. I was sorely tempted to try to casually pack it up with my > stuff at the end of the show. OK, pages swapped back in from secondary storage seem to indicate that it was owned by Vince Briel but there is still a ~20% chance of error. Bill From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 15:42:52 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > Here's a definitive response from Dr. Greg Whitten on this Well, not quite "definitive" because... > If GW-BASIC is named for anyone, it is probably me because I developed > the Microsoft BASIC language standards in the BASIC Compiler line. ...and then... > The GW-BASIC name stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC. So, which is it? Otherwise, a great piece of information (to be taken with a grain of salt as it's only one side of the story told first-hand). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 13 15:45:49 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:45:49 -0500 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? Message-ID: <009101c54069$c949fc20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm not sure what these things are called... but I need some. I'm calling them plastic "push rivets", where a plastic plunger pushes through a collar with 3 or 4 plastic legs. These legs break off. All the ones I've seen so far are a pretty common size. However, the ones I need two of at the moment are slightly smaller than that. Specifically, these are the two plastic push rivets from an HP 264X terminal that hold the metal cover over the CRT. Anyone ever find a source for these? Both my local electronics places came up empty. Regards, Jay West From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 13 15:45:59 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 13:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the 'Market' was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <00b201c54061$5f609e20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <00b201c54061$5f609e20$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <45983.207.145.53.202.1113425159.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Vince wrote: > I think it's like confusing Silicon Valley (or Portland, Oregon) with the > world :-). Maybe if I lived and worked where you do, I would see hundreds > of different venues doing a brisk business in this stuff. If only!!! In my experience it's easier to find interesting old stuff just about anywhere *other* than in Silicon Valley. I find more in Colorado, which I visit a few times a year, than I do in SV. But don't everybody rush to Colorado to grab all the good stuff before I get there! Eric From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 15:46:39 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:46:39 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > > Challenger 2P > > > > Blue/black? Integrated keyboard (C2-4P)? Floppies? > > Oh, sorry. I didn't know all these details mattered :) Inquiring minds want to know! > It's blue; integrated keyboard. That makes it a C2-4P. > I can't remember if this one has floppies. I have > another one which may be a II that did come with at > least one floppy drive. A 'II' would be in a box with either an external OSI keyboard at the end of a ribbon cable or a serial port for a terminal. > > > Challenger 1 > > > > You mean a C1P or a first series Challenger? > > Um, dang. Will have to double check later today. Tan/brown keyboard integrated box with a Superboard inside, C1P. Blue/black box with "CHALLENGER" silver and black paper label on the front, Challenger 1. > > > Challenger C4P > > In the original box, with the dual 8" floppy drive subsystem (also in the > original box). Dual 8s on a C4P? I didn't know it came from the factory that way. > > > Superboard kit (unbuilt) > > > > Do you have the original packaging with it (I would guess so)? If so, > > I would love to see some pictures of it. > > It's a pretty normal looking box. When I dig it out next (I think I might > know where it is) I'll snap several photos. Wondered how the components were packaged, whether they included sockets for all of the ICs, what the assembly and testing instructions looked like. Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 15:45:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:45:15 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <16989.30437.970860.986469@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123326.H1060@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413164515.0079ea40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:45 PM 4/13/05 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > Tom> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > >> The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these > >> days for what they represent. > > Tom> The problem with all of these older Tek devices, as pretty much > Tom> everyone who uses them for some time discovers, is that they > Tom> soon enough die of electromechanical issues -- the switches get > Tom> touchy, intermittent, then die -- and are essentially > Tom> unrepairable. > >That hasn't been my experience with any of them, and given the superb >quality of those devices I would find it surprising if that were >common. It's VERY common. In fact, it's pretty much the rule for old Tektronix scopes IMO. Come over to Sanford, Florida and I'll show you several HUNDRED Tektronix scopes and AT LEAST 95%+ of them have aging problems (bad caps, brittle plastic, intermitant switches, etc. I recently pulled out a dozen of so 465/466/475s and I didn't find a one that worked properly. In my experience, sitting unused is death on a Tektronix scope. I know that when I worked for the Telco they left them on ALL the time becuase they had less trouble with them that way. And that was when they were new! I've had several that worked perfectly UNTIL I let them sit unused for a couple of months and then they developed all kinds of problems. Joe My 535 and my 7603 both worked very well. The only 535 >problem was a tube problem (HT rectifier -- obtainable though >expensive and not well known). > > paul > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 15:55:38 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:55:38 -0400 Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb, IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb In-Reply-To: References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AAAF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: > > On 13-Apr-2005 Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. > > And yet you don't tell us where they are located. the country of "nl". > > -Philip > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 16:08:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? Message-ID: <200504132108.OAA01719@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >I'm not sure what these things are called... but I need some. I'm calling >them plastic "push rivets", where a plastic plunger pushes through a collar >with 3 or 4 plastic legs. These legs break off. > >All the ones I've seen so far are a pretty common size. However, the ones I >need two of at the moment are slightly smaller than that. Specifically, >these are the two plastic push rivets from an HP 264X terminal that hold the >metal cover over the CRT. > >Anyone ever find a source for these? Both my local electronics places came >up empty. > >Regards, > >Jay West Hi Jay Look at the one in the online McMaster-Carr catalog on page 3054. I think these are the right ones. http://www.mcmaster.com I think they may have a minimum order but I'm sure that with a few minutes looking you'll find enough things to make an order. Later Dwight From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Apr 13 16:17:20 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:17:20 -0400 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <009101c54069$c949fc20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009101c54069$c949fc20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <425D8C60.2040109@atarimuseum.com> Jay, Check with Rick over at smallrobot.com as those rivets you described were used on the Androbot TOPO robots in the 80's, Rick has developed a mini version of the TOPO that he sells and he may have tracked down a source for those rivets. Curt Jay West wrote: > I'm not sure what these things are called... but I need some. I'm > calling them plastic "push rivets", where a plastic plunger pushes > through a collar with 3 or 4 plastic legs. These legs break off. > > All the ones I've seen so far are a pretty common size. However, the > ones I need two of at the moment are slightly smaller than that. > Specifically, these are the two plastic push rivets from an HP 264X > terminal that hold the metal cover over the CRT. > > Anyone ever find a source for these? Both my local electronics places > came up empty. > > Regards, > > Jay West > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 4/12/2005 From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 13 16:20:20 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:20:20 -0400 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:49:14 CDT." <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> Message-ID: <200504132120.j3DLKL0g003086@mwave.heeltoe.com> John Foust wrote: > >Here's a definitive response from Dr. Greg Whitten on this >early history of Microsoft's BASIC, as well as other interesting material >on the history of Microsoft's scripting languages, up to >present-day .NET technologies. ... you know, if I didn't know better, I'd think the date on that text should be 4/1. gee wiz. -brad From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 16:26:25 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:26:25 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: <425D2D48.1000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: woodelf wrote: > > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > >OK Sellam, come clean. What have you managed to acquire? > > > The hard copy must be 3 or 4 lbs at least. Ducks and runs ... I have a good bit more than that! Three copy paper boxes full of documentation (appropriate because a lot of the originally supplied OSI docs were just photocopies, stapled together) and two more full of the "glossy" docs. The "glossy" docs being the extra books that they sold, the SAMs manuals, the marketing lit that they also sold (did any other company sell their product description pamphlets?) and the few price sheets and pages that they gave away. I also have some product descriptions and price sheets for a couple of OSI third party add-on companies in those boxes. > Ben alias woodelf > PS. The impressive thing is that the people with the large computer > collections have vast amounts of knowlage about the computers > they have. Something that a average collector does not seem to have > now days. Well, I like to think that I know a few things about OSI but I'll take this opportunity to make a confession. I've said several times on this list that you can't make a C4P into a C4P-MF by just adding a 470 board to it. This was told to me in 1981 by a tech at a local OSI reseller, The Math Box. I never checked it out for myself. Well, I just did (last week) and (with OS-65D v3.3) it works just fine as far as I can tell. I don't know if I misunderstood what the guy was telling me back then or if he was just wrong. I'm thinking maybe that the 470s came adjusted from the factory for 8 inch floppy timing and he was trying to tell me that you couldn't use one with 5 1/4 inch drives without modifications. Glad to get that off my chest, Bill From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Apr 13 16:27:10 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:27:10 +1200 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <00d201c5405d$df7a5640$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <015401c5406f$8d7c5390$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Beacon" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? snip > > Tony, I also have two scrap TDMS chassis (a 5 and a 6), which have > had the > polar relays, CRT's and valves removed, but they do still have the > transformers, switches and sockets. Do you need any spares, before > they get > cannabalised? > > Jim. IIRC one of those 'polar relays' is not- it's actually the QBF message generating coder-a very clever little electromechanical device with a "disc" memory. And that spiral timebase was something else - very clever - more modern TDMS variants with linear displays were never the same..... DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005 From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 13 16:32:01 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:32:01 -0400 Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb, IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425D8FD1.6060603@internet1.net> I think Fred is in the low lands somewhere. Also, you don't need to send messages to both cctalk and cctech.... everybody will get it twice like I did. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: > And yet you don't tell us where they are located. > > -Philip > > > From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 13 16:34:01 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:34:01 -0400 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <009101c54069$c949fc20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <009101c54069$c949fc20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <425D9049.90001@internet1.net> Jay, It may be a long shot since you say these are smalller than normal, but you might try a shop that supplies autobody shops. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jay West wrote: > I'm not sure what these things are called... but I need some. I'm > calling them plastic "push rivets", where a plastic plunger pushes > through a collar with 3 or 4 plastic legs. These legs break off. > > All the ones I've seen so far are a pretty common size. However, the > ones I need two of at the moment are slightly smaller than that. > Specifically, these are the two plastic push rivets from an HP 264X > terminal that hold the metal cover over the CRT. > > Anyone ever find a source for these? Both my local electronics places > came up empty. > > Regards, > > Jay West > > > From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Apr 13 16:46:42 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:46:42 +1200 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com><16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123326.H1060@localhost> Message-ID: <015c01c54072$47a4cfc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: Re: Oscilloscope question > On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > >> The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these >> days >> for what they represent. > > The problem with all of these older Tek devices, as pretty much > everyone who uses them for some time discovers, is that they soon > enough die of electromechanical issues -- the switches get touchy, > intermittent, then die -- and are essentially unrepairable. > > It's too bad, as the 465's and the 7xxx's are fine scopes, and the > lowest-cost good quality scope I know of (the DSO Tek > table-radio-sized jobs, TDS-???), 60 MHz/100MHz, run close to > $900. The THS720 etc, perhaps? Very nice DSOs. Tee Tek 500 series scopes certainly don't suffer from electromechanical issues. (one exception- fan motor bearings-but easily fixed) Most owners will die before the scope does - possibly from a hernia or heart attack bought on from heaving those large weighty beasts around! I still have a 545B and a 585 -plus a fleet of plugins. Excellent scopes. The 7K series pushbutton switches are a different story- they do often fail in time, but are (with care) replaceable, and occasionally fixable-parts mule plugins are handy to have, and still cheap enough on Ebay etc. Tek 7K series would still have to be the best value around in scopes - both analog and digital have their place in the scope world-despite claims to the contrary from some. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005 From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 16:53:40 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 14:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay score Message-ID: <200504132153.OAA01729@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bill Sudbrink" > >woodelf wrote: >> >> Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> >> >OK Sellam, come clean. What have you managed to acquire? >> > >> The hard copy must be 3 or 4 lbs at least. Ducks and runs ... > >I have a good bit more than that! > >Three copy paper boxes full of documentation (appropriate because a lot >of the originally supplied OSI docs were just photocopies, stapled together) >and two more full of the "glossy" docs. The "glossy" docs being the extra >books that they sold, the SAMs manuals, the marketing lit that they also >sold >(did any other company sell their product description pamphlets?) and the >few >price sheets and pages that they gave away. I also have some product >descriptions and price sheets for a couple of OSI third party add-on >companies >in those boxes. > >> Ben alias woodelf >> PS. The impressive thing is that the people with the large computer >> collections have vast amounts of knowlage about the computers >> they have. Something that a average collector does not seem to have >> now days. > >Well, I like to think that I know a few things about OSI but I'll take >this opportunity to make a confession. I've said several times on this >list that you can't make a C4P into a C4P-MF by just adding a 470 board >to it. This was told to me in 1981 by a tech at a local OSI reseller, >The Math Box. I never checked it out for myself. Well, I just did (last >week) and (with OS-65D v3.3) it works just fine as far as I can tell. I >don't know if I misunderstood what the guy was telling me back then or if >he was just wrong. I'm thinking maybe that the 470s came adjusted from >the factory for 8 inch floppy timing and he was trying to tell me that >you couldn't use one with 5 1/4 inch drives without modifications. > >Glad to get that off my chest, >Bill > Hi Bill I'm glad also. Now I can sleep in peace. ;) I only have one of these machines but I forget which one. I just checked that it booted and haven't played with it since ( still on my to do list ). It is in a box with a keyboard attached as part of the box. Dwight From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Apr 13 17:02:51 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:02:51 -0400 Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wrote: > I wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > > Well, you do have that extremely rare OSI single-board (what model was > > > that again?) I did consider clubbing you in the back of the head and > > > running off with it at VCF East but there would've been too many > > > witnesses. > > > > I _WISH_ that were mine, but Bob Maxwell and I were babysitting > > it for... > > Dang! I seem to have lost a few brain cells and can't remember who the > > owner was. I was sorely tempted to try to casually pack it up with my > > stuff at the end of the show. > > OK, pages swapped back in from secondary storage seem to indicate that > it was owned by Vince Briel but there is still a ~20% chance of error. Sigh... A little bird has reminded me that it in fact belongs to Jim Kearny. So, now you know whose house to rob! ;-) Bill From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 17:06:50 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:06:50 -0500 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> At 03:42 PM 4/13/2005, you wrote: >Well, not quite "definitive" because... I was going to use the words "data point" but erased it. :-) >> The GW-BASIC name stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC. >So, which is it? As he said, we have to ask Bill Gates. This whole story so much resembles other incidents in my personal software history. I'll email the old gang from company X and try to recount where some name or program came from and who worked on it and why we used code name Z for it, and there's always going to be several versions of the story. I'm content with the ambiguous summary. It's history, folks. >Otherwise, a great piece of information (to be taken with a grain of salt >as it's only one side of the story told first-hand). Dr. Whitten also added in a follow-up: "I also know something about Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor II machines because I was Director of Software for ISC from 1978-1979. I bought an ISC 8001 in Jan 77 and worked for them as a consultant in 77 and 78." - John From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 13 17:17:57 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:17:57 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504132217.j3DMHSs4044795@dewey.classiccmp.org> > message didn't get picked up. Happens all the time. If you > don't feel you got the response you wanted, try asking the > same question again a few days later. I think I might've asked during one of the guns/bombs/bush periods too :) a From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 13 17:52:04 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 15:52:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> Message-ID: <20050413153904.H74419@shell.lmi.net> Thank you for following up on it! ... and thank him for his help in clarifying an interesting item of history. On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > >> The GW-BASIC name stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC. > >So, which is it? > As he said, we have to ask Bill Gates. His style is a little ambiguous, but it seems like we could interpret what he said to mean, The official name is 'Gee Whiz', but if it WERE named after somebody it would be him. I would rely more on his memories of it than on Bill Gates' statements. Remember that in the "Computer Bowl", NOBODY on Bill Gates' team could remember where the write-protect notch is on 8" diskettes! (So who DID fish out the tabs that fell off?) As to the assertion that it was "Gordon", not "Greg", he clarifies that Gordon is his brother, so if there is anything to that assertion, then there may be some family issues involved. > I'm content with the ambiguous summary. It's history, folks. ... and as good as history gets. > Dr. Whitten also added in a follow-up: > "I also know something about Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor II machines > because I was Director of Software for ISC from 1978-1979. I bought an > ISC 8001 in Jan 77 and worked for them as a consultant in 77 and 78." Even that paragraph would be less ambiguous if he were to have talked about "77" BEFORE "77 and 78", and BEFORE "1978-1979". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Apr 13 18:02:47 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:02:47 +0200 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 20:46 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And yes, it > > was a definite must-have for any serious serial-based development > > work. > > > > It's the perfect use for an older laptop that happens to have two serial > ports. There is software that then turns both serial RX lines into > inputs so you can monitor both directions of a full duplex connection. > It gets you a dual-channel 'serial scope.' Unfortunately, there aren't > that many laptops with two serial ports, certainly none being made > today. False :) USB to serial and PCMCIA to serial exist, and they're cheap, especially the USB job. Of course, the laptop would have to be relatively modern, say a Pentium I. From charlesb at otcgaming.net Wed Apr 13 18:09:58 2005 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (Charles Blackburn) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:09:58 +0100 Subject: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) In-Reply-To: <1113394734.5157.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00da01c5407d$ea70d540$0500a8c0@gamemachine> That's a bugger... Oh well... Better luck next time... Regards charles -----Original Message----- From: Jules Richardson [mailto:julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 13 April 2005 13:19 Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Apollo 340 machines (Manchester uni, UK) On Wed, 2005-04-13 at 09:15 +0100, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > At 12:36 12/04/2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >Chap at Manchester uni has three Apollo 340 machines (plus assorted > >spares by the sounds of it) which are heading to the skip today. *sigh* Email arrived to say they were going in a skip today - within an hour I'd replied to say that they could probably be saved if they could be held for a few days, but they'd already gone in the skip by then :( -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.7 - Release Date: 12/04/2005 From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 13 18:25:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:25:59 -0500 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? References: <200504132108.OAA01719@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002b01c54080$27467e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Dwight wrote.... > Look at the one in the online McMaster-Carr catalog > on page 3054. I think these are the right ones. > > http://www.mcmaster.com > Awesome, I checked their catalog and they got 'em, exactly what I need. Their part number for the HP one is 93040A108 (had to get out the caliper). I'd recommend others check out this places' online catalog. As I was skimming through it, they seem to have a TON of various connectors, fasteners, etc. that I always thought would be impossible to find. They seem to have it all. And for the record, these are called "Plunger-Head Captive Fastners" :) Thanks Dwight!! Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 18:25:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:25:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > >> The GW-BASIC name stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC. > >So, which is it? > > As he said, we have to ask Bill Gates. I'll just stick with "Gee Whiz" since no one's ever heard of "Greg Whitten" ;) > Dr. Whitten also added in a follow-up: > > "I also know something about Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor II machines > because I was Director of Software for ISC from 1978-1979. I bought an > ISC 8001 in Jan 77 and worked for them as a consultant in 77 and 78." Cool, I've got both. Maybe he can help me get them working when he's not busy having lunch with Bill G. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 13 18:33:26 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:33:26 -0500 Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <20050413153904.H74419@shell.lmi.net> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> <20050413153904.H74419@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <425DAC46.4000906@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > His style is a little ambiguous, but it seems like we could interpret what > he said to mean, The official name is 'Gee Whiz', but if it WERE named > after somebody it would be him. That is exactly how I read it as well. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 18:40:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:40:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic Message-ID: <200504132340.QAA01753@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > >> >> The GW-BASIC name stands for Gee-Whiz BASIC. >> >So, which is it? >> >> As he said, we have to ask Bill Gates. > >I'll just stick with "Gee Whiz" since no one's ever heard of "Greg >Whitten" ;) > >> Dr. Whitten also added in a follow-up: >> >> "I also know something about Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor II machines >> because I was Director of Software for ISC from 1978-1979. I bought an >> ISC 8001 in Jan 77 and worked for them as a consultant in 77 and 78." > >Cool, I've got both. Maybe he can help me get them working when he's not >busy having lunch with Bill G. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival The only think I thought, as I read his point of view, was that since he was so great at coding and projects at uSoft, why has the product been so shitty for the years he was there and finally looks like it has begin to stablize once he was gone? Dwight From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 13 18:39:52 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:39:52 -0400 Subject: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: <00f501c54082$17db47a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Simple, Sellam: You have stated that you are more interested in acquiring than selling. (500 to 1 did you say?) This means that you are biased in the direction of price deflation, the opposite of a seller. John A. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Wed Apr 13 18:42:26 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:42:26 -0400 Subject: ID-100 (Was: GW-Basic) In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050413161231.0510ad88@mail> Message-ID: <425DAE62.4080601@compsys.to> >John Foust wrote: >Dr. Whitten also added in a follow-up: >"I also know something about Intecolor 8001 and Compucolor II machines >because I was Director of Software for ISC from 1978-1979. I bought an >ISC 8001 in Jan 77 and worked for them as a consultant in 77 and 78." > > Jerome Fine replies: The mention of early colour displays reminded me. I realize that this is a VERY long shot, but I wonder if anyone knows anything about a (VT100 looking - on the outside) colour terminal made by ID Systems Corporation in Hilliard, Ohio called an ID-100V. The shell is obviously from a VT100, as is the keyboard, but inside it is about twice as heavy. I acquired it at least 10 years ago and turned it on to see if it worked at all. The SET UP key showed an "A/B" dialogue with some of the characters displayed in colour which confirmed it was a colour terminal. BUT I never had the time to check any further. Does anyone know if any documentation is available? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 13 18:49:36 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:49:36 +0100 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <002b01c54080$27467e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200504132349.j3DNnDqx046002@dewey.classiccmp.org> > I'd recommend others check out this places' online catalog. > As I was skimming through it, they seem to have a TON of > various connectors, fasteners, etc. that I always thought > would be impossible to find. They seem to have it all. > > And for the record, these are called "Plunger-Head Captive > Fastners" :) Are these the same fasteners used on the likes of the VT1xx, Sinclair ZX80 and Jupiter Ace? I've been occasionally looking for spares for a while now.... cheers a From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 19:01:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? Message-ID: <200504140001.RAA01761@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Adrian Graham" > >> I'd recommend others check out this places' online catalog. >> As I was skimming through it, they seem to have a TON of >> various connectors, fasteners, etc. that I always thought >> would be impossible to find. They seem to have it all. >> >> And for the record, these are called "Plunger-Head Captive >> Fastners" :) > >Are these the same fasteners used on the likes of the VT1xx, Sinclair ZX80 >and Jupiter Ace? I've been occasionally looking for spares for a while >now.... > >cheers > Hi I think you are talking about the ones on page 3110. Come on, as Sellam would say, "are you web impaired". Just bring up the web page and look for your self. Geesh! Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 13 19:00:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:00:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <00f501c54082$17db47a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Allain wrote: > Simple, Sellam: > You have stated that you are more interested in acquiring than selling. > (500 to 1 did you say?) > This means that you are biased in the direction of price deflation, > the opposite of a seller. If you saw my appraisal reports you would know that nothing could be further from the truth. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:11:24 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:11:24 -0400 Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) In-Reply-To: <200504131906.MAA01667@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504131906.MAA01667@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > There were actually two S-100 bus extensions on ebay recently. > There was the one that was stated as such and there was one > that was described as a controller for a floppy drive and drive > ( I forget which machine it was stated as being for, SYM1, KIM1 > or R65 ). Hmm... sorry I missed them. > I do have a card that was intended to be used with the SYM-1 to > drive floppies. When I got it, it was missing the code ROM and > a data bus buffer. I've since located the code but the buffer chip > has been a problem. It is one of those oddball national chips > that can not be easily replaces by a '245 :( What's the part number? I might be able to help (I have tubes of 8641s, for example). -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 17:48:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:48:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 12, 5 06:33:46 pm Message-ID: > The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these days > for what they represent. I got a fast 79xx mainframe at auction last > year for $5 because it had weird plugins (the Logic Analyzer plugins, > without the pods- useless) in it and didn't look much like a 'scope' to Actually, those pods are relatively 'benign' in that the signals to the analyser are differential 10K-seriea ECL signals. It's not hard to make up TTL-compatable input adapters, etc. Not as good as the real pod, but better than no analyser at all. > Students these days don't learn squat about using analog scopes, and Tell me about it. Actually, I am not sure what students _do_ learn these days... > there is a LOT you can do with one if you know how. Delayed sweep, As I mentioned the other day, I've never used a DSO for real work. I've always made do with an analogue scope, and I think I know how to do some useful things with it. My view is that you'll not get the best out of a DSO unless you fully understand the use of an analogue 'scope (in much the same way that the best users of CNC tools are darn good machinists on manual machine tools, in the same way that the best designers using CAD systems are also the best designers without CAD systems...). > external trigger, etc. are there for a reason, and worth getting > acquainted with. With delayed sweep and the Differential Comparator > plugin (introduces a DC offset so you can look at the 'important' part Now why do you think I have 1A5 plug-in for my 555 ? > of the waveform at high gain) you can zoom in on tiny windows of > repetetive waveforms as well as (better than, actually) any digital > scope. And it's amazing how many signals can be made repetitive. A friend of mine (a darn good hacker) debugged his homebrew 68K system with an old Tekky analogue 'scope. He repeatedly pulsed the reset line to his system, and connected that to the external trigger input of the 'scope. He then looked at particular signals, 'scrolled through' them with the delayed timebase and figured out what the processor was doing. You can't always do tricks like that (which is why DSOs are sometimes very useful), but many times you can. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 18:02:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:02:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: <005901c53fbf$564038c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 12, 5 07:25:46 pm Message-ID: > > In a couple of cases, I disagree with the advice given. > You're allowed, entitled, and encouraged to disagree. That's what the "add > comment" feature is for! Or better yet, post your own article on the > subject. I'd prefer the KB to be less "conversational", that's what the list > is for. Instead, I'd prefer if an alternate post is more along the lines of > "Here's what *I* think, and why". That, actually, is what I have a problem with. Many people here know what they're talking about (unlike me?) but I've learnt over the years that if you get two experts together, they will not agree on most things. They won't start a flamewar, but they will have different views, different ways of doing things, and so on. Now, the thing about this list is that often many of us put forward our views, our way of doing things. The original questioner can then see a range of possible answers known that each one 'works' for at least somebody. On the knowledgebase, you're likely to get one or two answers at most, there is no discussion. > > > > 1) Buy a cheap Dial Test Indicator. My view : I am not rich enough to buy > > cheap tools! > I definitely see your point. The spirit of my post was directed at those who > are on a budget, and there's a lot of dial test indicators out there that You think I'm not on a budget? Not having a job for getting on for 8 years doesn't exactly help... > cost several hundreds of dollars median price. My own thought was that given > a tight budget, a few hundred dollar dti wasn't going to make it into a new > collectors toolkit. I would rather them have a cheap one, and be able to > learn how to replace a platter, than try to do it without one at all, or I would agree to a point. However, at least over here, manufacturing industry is in a total mess, and there are fair number of second-hand tools (including DTIs, micrometers, etc) from works that have closed down, that are relatively inexpensive and are of good quality. If it's not been misused, a DTI will still be useable, it will not be worn out. I can't rememebr what I paid for mine, but they're a good make (Moore and Wright I think, maybe Starret), probably payed a few 10's of pounds (each) for them. Another general point : It's often better to have a tool/instrument that looks inferior on paper (i.e. a lower specification) but which actually meets that spec, rather than one that seems to be better but doesn't meet the spec (or what you'd expect the spec to be) in peculiar ways. A good 3.5 digit DMM is a lot more use than a poor 4.5 digit one, for example. > Tony, I must respectfully admit that I am a little confused why you were > left with the opinion that the KB was meant to be the "gospel truth". My experience is that FAQs often are taken in this way, even if that was not the original intention. > Differing viewpoints are most welcome and encouraged. Perhaps it was my > statement that I don't want the KB to become a "conversation", in that light Yes, that's certainly part of that. I am a great believer in rational discussion (which often takes place on this list). > are concerned it may become, is if you don't post articles with your own > views. If you do, then there's no way it can become that. Well, unless the moderator decides to reject articles with a particular viewpoint (no, I don't realistically think this will happen, OK). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 17:40:34 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:40:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <003801c53fb7$348d2ec0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 12, 5 06:27:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote... > > I also have a crazy decvice called a 'Ferret'. It's built into an ABS > Holy cow! I kept expecting you to add ".... it has a swiss army knife, and > it slices and dices..." Sounds like a very cool device. Well, the lid of the case has a pocket that holds the user manual, cables, etc. There should be space for my trusty Leatherman too :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 18:10:25 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:10:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Apr 12, 5 06:29:30 pm Message-ID: > > Lots of fun, but I suppose a modern PC could do just as well, > > presuming there's an app that's designed to capture and display > > whatever goes by the serial port. > > I can't remember what the software I used was called, but I think I still > have it somewhere and can check. It came with a special double-headed > cable though, and unless that cable was just a simple Y-split, I don't > know if making one from scratch would be feasible. These programs tend to need a PC with 2 serial ports. You want to monitor the data flowing over the 2 data lines in then link between the 2 devices you're investigating, so you need 2 serial inputs on the monitoring device (== PC). Typically you link the TxD line of the cable between the 2 devices to the RxD line of one of the serial ports, and the RxD line of the cable to the RxD line of the other serial port. Handshake lines are done similarly (if they're monitored at all). For example, the CTS line of one of the serial ports could monitor the RTS line of the cable, the CTS line of the other port could monitor the CTS line of the cable. You don't use the output lines on the PC serial ports at all. I seem to remember there was a project in Elektor magazine some years ago to make such a cable, which worked with one of the 'stnadard' monitoring programs. Don't ask me which progrma or to find the article, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 18:49:06 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:49:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <015401c5406f$8d7c5390$7900a8c0@athlon1200> from "Dave Brown" at Apr 14, 5 09:27:10 am Message-ID: > IIRC one of those 'polar relays' is not- it's actually the QBF > message generating coder-a very clever little electromechanical device > with a "disc" memory. And that spiral timebase was something else - Correct. The 'disk' is a circular PCB that has the QBF message stored in the trace pattern. It's read out by a set of brush contacts that touch the pads on the PCB as the latter rotates. The manual I have for my TDMS (and which I can't instantly put my hand on...) has a section in the back covering dismantling, assembling, and aligning this 'coder'. Although it's the same can and plug base as the polar relay alongside it, the locating pins are swapped round (one being larger in diameter than the other) so you can't get the the wrong device in the socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 18:32:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:32:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <000c01c5405c$5855e400$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Apr 13, 5 08:09:37 pm Message-ID: > The Interview 7000 manuals on the shelf say Atlantic Research > Coporation on the back. The Interview 8000 manual says Telenex > on the spine (the back says Telenex. AR Test Systems - I assume > a new division was bornized somewhere along the line ...). I can't remmeber what I have (the number '4000' seems to be floating through my memory, but...) and I certainly don't feel like finding it at the moment. Do your manauls contain any useful repair information, like schematics? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 13 18:40:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:40:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <00d201c5405d$df7a5640$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 13, 5 08:20:36 pm Message-ID: > I have a Ferret, and a TDMS (can't remeber if it's a 5 or 6). The TDMS has > an irritating fault with the disrtribuitor (lots of cross connected triodes > in a ring circuit), which I've never got to the bottom of , mainly 'cause I > can't figure out how it works....... I assume you have the manual with the schematics. The distributor struck me as being pretty close to a standard ring counter, albeit somewhat oddly drawn. I'll dig out the manual and take a look if need be. One fault mine had when I got it was that the wiring to the stop-bit slection panel on the back was trapped between 2 of the chassis parts, and one of the wires was thus shorted to ground. I can't remember what problem that caused, but there was no permanent damage done. > > The Ferret is untested, as it has only recently arrived, and is far to > complicated to just dive in. I have the user manual for the Ferret. It's got some useful information in it, but no schematics.. For some odd reason, the Ferret is assembled by System Zero tamperproof screws. I have no idea why they made it so difficult to get inside, but they did. Fortunately RS sell the tools to get them out (and back in again). I've not seriously investigated the circuitry, but it looked fairly conventional, and all standard ICs (apart from a programmed microcontroller to run the printer, and I think that's the one RS sell/sold). It looks fairly easy to repair if that should be necessary. > > I also have a TSG40, which is a telegraph signal generator, which will do 5, > 7 or 8 unit code, at variable speeds from 40 Baud up. I have some Trend telegraph sig-gen. Stuffed full of DTL chips. > > Tony, I also have two scrap TDMS chassis (a 5 and a 6), which have had the > polar relays, CRT's and valves removed, but they do still have the > transformers, switches and sockets. Do you need any spares, before they get > cannabalised? I cna't think of anything. My TDMS worked fine last time I powered it up. -tony From wacarder at usit.net Wed Apr 13 19:16:03 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:16:03 -0400 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Simple, Sellam: > > You have stated that you are more interested in acquiring than selling. > > (500 to 1 did you say?) > > This means that you are biased in the direction of price deflation, > > the opposite of a seller. > > If you saw my appraisal reports you would know that nothing could be > further from the truth. Sellam, Do you do appraisals that can be used by insurance companies? I probably need to get my 30-something year old systems appraised in case I have a catastrophe of some sort. I need to add a rider to my insurance policy to cover these systems. What started out as a small well-defined project is rapidly growing into a large collection and filling up my shop! Ashley From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 19:23:57 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:23:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) Message-ID: <200504140023.RAA01766@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 4/13/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> There were actually two S-100 bus extensions on ebay recently. >> There was the one that was stated as such and there was one >> that was described as a controller for a floppy drive and drive >> ( I forget which machine it was stated as being for, SYM1, KIM1 >> or R65 ). > >Hmm... sorry I missed them. > >> I do have a card that was intended to be used with the SYM-1 to >> drive floppies. When I got it, it was missing the code ROM and >> a data bus buffer. I've since located the code but the buffer chip >> has been a problem. It is one of those oddball national chips >> that can not be easily replaces by a '245 :( > >What's the part number? I might be able to help (I have tubes of >8641s, for example). > >-ethan > Hi I'm looking for a DP8303 but with some software changes I could most likely get a DP8304 to work. Dwight From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:32:13 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:32:13 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Tony Duell wrote: > These programs tend to need a PC with 2 serial ports. You want to monitor > the data flowing over the 2 data lines in then link between the 2 devices > you're investigating, so you need 2 serial inputs on the monitoring > device (== PC). That's what makes the dedicated devices like the HP 4xxx so handy... they can monitor or emit bytes with the same cable, depending on what you are asking it to do. The downside is, naturally, that lots of people have serial ports on PCs and not many people have dedicated line analyzers. For the majority of uses, I would expect people need to monitor, not generate traffic. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 19:39:41 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:39:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) Message-ID: <200504140039.RAA01772@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 4/13/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> There were actually two S-100 bus extensions on ebay recently. >> There was the one that was stated as such and there was one >> that was described as a controller for a floppy drive and drive >> ( I forget which machine it was stated as being for, SYM1, KIM1 >> or R65 ). > >Hmm... sorry I missed them. ---snip--- I found it, it was for the AIM65. The number was 5178816716. You'd have gotten the s-100 plus a disk setup. I was going to bid but it was already out of my budget when I saw it. Dwight From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 13 19:44:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 19:44:13 -0500 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? References: <200504132349.j3DNnDqx046002@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <005001c5408b$164687c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Adrian wrote.... > Are these the same fasteners used on the likes of the VT1xx, Sinclair ZX80 > and Jupiter Ace? I've been occasionally looking for spares for a while > now.... In the six or so VT100's I've had open, about half of them used a plunger-head captive faster that was a fairly standard design. The other half used a totally oddball thing I've never seen before (although I suspect you could use either one). So yes, this place has the ones used in the Vt100. Bear in mind the items I'm talking about have a large plugner you grab with two fingers under, thumb over. These are not tiny "rivets". Jay From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 19:51:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:51:58 -0400 Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) In-Reply-To: <200504140023.RAA01766@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504140023.RAA01766@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >What's the part number? I might be able to help (I have tubes of > >8641s, for example). > > I'm looking for a DP8303 but with some software > changes I could most likely get a DP8304 to work. Oooh... you are right... that is an unusual one. I don't even recognize the number. Do you have specs? Would it be possible to get the right functionality (current drive, etc.) with more than one chip on a daughter card and plug it into the socket for the DP8303? Wish I could help. Wonder why they picked something that was so far out of mainstream. -ethan From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 20:11:01 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) Message-ID: <200504140111.SAA01780@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ethan Dicks" > >On 4/13/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> >What's the part number? I might be able to help (I have tubes of >> >8641s, for example). >> >> I'm looking for a DP8303 but with some software >> changes I could most likely get a DP8304 to work. > >Oooh... you are right... that is an unusual one. I don't even >recognize the number. Do you have specs? Would it be possible to get >the right functionality (current drive, etc.) with more than one chip >on a daughter card and plug it into the socket for the DP8303? > >Wish I could help. > >Wonder why they picked something that was so far out of mainstream. > >-ethan > Hi I don't need the fancy differences in the currents. One side drives a higher current than the other. The actual circuit would work fine with a little simple glue logic and a pair of '240 TTL's. It just has to drive the bus on the SYM and a little bit of circuit on the on board bus. I'm just a little lazy at getting around to actually doing it. The right chip would peak my interest. Dwight From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 20:15:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:15:35 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> Message-ID: <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:02:47 +0200 Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 20:46 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And > > > yes, it was a definite must-have for any serious serial-based > > > development work. > > > > > > > It's the perfect use for an older laptop that happens to have two > > serial ports. There is software that then turns both serial RX > > lines into inputs so you can monitor both directions of a full > > duplex connection. It gets you a dual-channel 'serial scope.' > > Unfortunately, there aren't that many laptops with two serial ports, > > certainly none being made today. > > False :) > > USB to serial and PCMCIA to serial exist, and they're cheap, > especially the USB job. > > Of course, the laptop would have to be relatively modern, say a > Pentium I. > My Pentium I laptop, a very mainstream Toshiba model, doesn't have USB. A fact that bugs me fairly often. And anyway, for a 'serial analyzer' which is probably going to run some ancient DOS program if it's analyzing conventional serial traffic, some old 486 laptop (or a 386SX) is probably up to snuff, and will cost less than said USB to serial or PCMCIA to serial adapter. Plus it's then 'sanctioned' on-topic hardware for this list (kinda). And aren't (at least some of us) all about practical use as well as fooling around with old gear? I'd hate to think some of the old stuff isn't still useful in a practical sense. (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and make it a serial analyzer on principle, though) From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 20:18:04 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:18:04 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: <009b01c53fcc$abf781d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20050413201804.7914d346.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 12 Apr 2005 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > > > Sellam wrote.... > > > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And > > > yes, it was a definite must-have for any serious serial-based > > > development work. > > > > Yup, and I still have it too. It was called "BreakOut II", and did > > come with a Y cable. You can't just solder up a Y cable, as I recall > > some diodes were required. I'm sure I still have the cable here > > somewhere too. > > > > However, the PC software just isn't as cool as a real datascope :) > > Not to mention, even though BreakOut II was the big commercial > > product at the time I bought it, it surely doesn't come close to the > > nicety of the real datascope either. > > Mine was different. It was actually made by the company that wrote > the C serial library I used in my telecom system. It was called > something generic like "Serial Data Analyzer". I'm not sure if I > ended up with the cable. > > At any rate, I ended up with a very nice datacomm analyzer made by > GenRad(?) I think. I'll check when I get home. I had it out for sale > at a local ham fest last month but then realized how cool it was and > jacked up the price to some ridiculous level so that I'd either get an > unnatural buttload of cash for it or would get to take it home. I'm > glad I got to take it home :) > Just be glad that one of us who worships General Radio ('GenRad'- pish!!) gear and who is 'in the money' didn't happen along. Rumor has it that General Radio MIGHT have ONCE made a piece of gear somewhere that wasn't cool. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 13 20:25:37 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:25:37 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <0IEW007OJX9XTOY6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? > From: Scott Stevens >And anyway, for a 'serial analyzer' which is probably going to run some >ancient DOS program if it's analyzing conventional serial traffic, some >old 486 laptop (or a 386SX) is probably up to snuff, and will cost less >than said USB to serial or PCMCIA to serial adapter. Plus it's then >'sanctioned' on-topic hardware for this list (kinda). And aren't (at >least some of us) all about practical use as well as fooling around with >old gear? I'd hate to think some of the old stuff isn't still useful in >a practical sense. (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and make >it a serial analyzer on principle, though) Actually I use a SIIG3000 386 running DOS as it's small brick of a system and for the ability to listen. To inject into the line it's fairly trivial to make an RS232 level OR gate! For general listening MY VT320 in display controls mode does well enough. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 20:32:09 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:32:09 -0500 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050413123748.H1060@localhost> References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123748.H1060@localhost> Message-ID: <20050413203209.06994dac.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 12:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 12 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > > I had a 'filter' on my BBS because one single user had an annoying > > habit of typing in ALL CAPS. And he didn't have an all-caps > > terminal to use as an excuse. So one night I dug in and hacked the > > Pascal code (this was a WWIV BBS) to not allow any but the first > > letter in an entered word to be upper case (it would automatically > > force all following letters to lower case until some whitespace > > occured). Next time Mister All-Caps logged in he had a fit. What a > > riot online life was those days... > > I too ran a lot of BBSs for a lot of years, and the one thing I > could never understand is, why did sysops ever care about such > things? I agree that ALL CAPS IS LIKE YELLING but so what? > It was the whole sysop power trip, I think. In my case, though, it was about freaking out that one dude. There's a need for someone to write a good solid history of 1980's BBS culture. A lot of complicated socioligical (sp?) phenomena has never really been well explored and recorded that I know of. I.e. : if you let your message base be taken over by 'the dude who types in all caps' people quit responding. Then there are no new messages for people to see and respond to. After they call two times and there are no new messages, they never call again. Boards could die OVERNIGHT that way, and often did. (this is turning into topic drift, to bring it back on-topic slightly I'll mention that I first started BBSing on a printing DecWriter and an acoustic coupler before I could afford a 'real' computer with serial port and all that fancy stuff. Fancy verbose 'welcome screens' on BBSes were distressing, eating up a few feet of paper each time I logged on.) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 13 20:32:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 18:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <200504140132.SAA01787@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" > >On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:02:47 +0200 >Tore S Bekkedal wrote: > >> On Tue, 2005-04-12 at 20:46 -0500, Scott Stevens wrote: >> >> > > I used a PC-based software scope that worked fairly well. And >> > > yes, it was a definite must-have for any serious serial-based >> > > development work. >> > > >> > >> > It's the perfect use for an older laptop that happens to have two >> > serial ports. There is software that then turns both serial RX >> > lines into inputs so you can monitor both directions of a full >> > duplex connection. It gets you a dual-channel 'serial scope.' >> > Unfortunately, there aren't that many laptops with two serial ports, >> > certainly none being made today. >> >> False :) >> >> USB to serial and PCMCIA to serial exist, and they're cheap, >> especially the USB job. >> >> Of course, the laptop would have to be relatively modern, say a >> Pentium I. >> > >My Pentium I laptop, a very mainstream Toshiba model, doesn't have USB. >A fact that bugs me fairly often. > >And anyway, for a 'serial analyzer' which is probably going to run some >ancient DOS program if it's analyzing conventional serial traffic, some >old 486 laptop (or a 386SX) is probably up to snuff, and will cost less >than said USB to serial or PCMCIA to serial adapter. Plus it's then >'sanctioned' on-topic hardware for this list (kinda). And aren't (at >least some of us) all about practical use as well as fooling around with >old gear? I'd hate to think some of the old stuff isn't still useful in >a practical sense. (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and make >it a serial analyzer on principle, though) A true analyser also measure disortion and levels. Dwight From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 13 20:40:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413083910.04dda170@mail> Message-ID: > To decry the notion that you're "just one data point" entirely misses the > point of what a "market" or a "mailing list" is. There's nothing > wrong with being a well-known or respected expert, but you can't > forget that there's no certification involved. Actually, there is a certification process, at least in some areas. Around here, NYU has a program I have been thinking of taking (my Aunt and cousin have started already) to become a professional antiques appraiser. And there is a LOT more than "one data point". We in the classic computing field have SO much to learn about how the antiques and collectables market works. None of us are experts, actually. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 13 20:43:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:43:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Criticism is welcome; insults are not taken so well ;) And I'm sorry if I > got a bit touchy after being described as a "dealer", but in my opinion > that word has a negative connotation in this hobby, Just for the record, I am a dealer, and damn proud of it. But I know what you mean about the negative connotation... William Donzelli Federal Signal and Ironworks, Inc. aw288 at osfn.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 13 20:48:08 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:48:08 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413083910.04dda170@mail> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413204657.04893d68@mail> At 08:40 PM 4/13/2005, William Donzelli wrote: >> To decry the notion that you're "just one data point" entirely misses the >> point of what a "market" or a "mailing list" is. There's nothing >> wrong with being a well-known or respected expert, but you can't >> forget that there's no certification involved. > >Actually, there is a certification process, at least in some areas. Around >here, NYU has a program I have been thinking of taking (my Aunt and cousin >have started already) to become a professional antiques appraiser. Being certified as an appraiser is one thing; it doesn't make you an expert with opinions about eBay and markets, does it? - John From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 13 20:59:35 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:59:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413204657.04893d68@mail> Message-ID: > Being certified as an appraiser is one thing; it doesn't make > you an expert with opinions about eBay and markets, does it? Well, it sort of does, these days. The antiques and collectables market and Ebay are connected so much that they will probably never come apart. Even the big traditional auction houses have been changed by Ebay. If a person is a professional appraiser and chooses not to study or include Ebay, that person is either a fool or ethically challenged (or both). My take? Ebay is eighty or ninety percent of the market. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 21:20:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:20:29 -0400 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <009101c54069$c949fc20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413222029.00b75e40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Jay, The HP 5036s use those too. I was looking for some a couple of years ago to restore some the 5036s and I went to local supplier and tried to buy some. They wanted $17.something a piece for them! No that's not a typo, $17+ /EACH! Needless to say, I didn't buy any. However I later found that the old IBM PS-2s use them so I started robbing the PS-2s that I found in the scrap yards. I also found that the HUGE local surplus store (Skycraft) has them in stock. So start robbing those PS-2s OR let me know how many you need and what size* and I'll see if Skycraft still has some. *Oops, scratch the size. I have a 2648 open, I can get one from there and try to match it up. Joe PS I still have that 2648 for you. I need to figure out how to pack and ship it. That's going t be especially tricky since one or two of the CRT mounts are already broken! At 03:45 PM 4/13/05 -0500, you wrote: >I'm not sure what these things are called... but I need some. I'm calling >them plastic "push rivets", where a plastic plunger pushes through a collar >with 3 or 4 plastic legs. These legs break off. > >All the ones I've seen so far are a pretty common size. However, the ones I >need two of at the moment are slightly smaller than that. Specifically, >these are the two plastic push rivets from an HP 264X terminal that hold the >metal cover over the CRT. > >Anyone ever find a source for these? Both my local electronics places came >up empty. > >Regards, > >Jay West > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 21:33:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:33:35 -0400 Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: References: <005901c53fbf$564038c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413223335.00b7f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:02 AM 4/14/05 +0100, Tony wrote: > >> Tony, I must respectfully admit that I am a little confused why you were >> left with the opinion that the KB was meant to be the "gospel truth". > >My experience is that FAQs often are taken in this way, even if that was >not the original intention. Tony has a good point. I think that the FAQ should clearly state that the included statements are opinions and BELIEVED to be true but YMMV. Prices, rarity and desirability vary, especially over time and distance and depending on the latest fad or movie. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 21:46:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:46:51 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413224651.00b80280@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:48 PM 4/13/05 +0100, you wrote: >> The Tek 7000 series scopes are really, really, undervalued these days >> for what they represent. I got a fast 79xx mainframe at auction last >> year for $5 because it had weird plugins (the Logic Analyzer plugins, >> without the pods- useless) in it and didn't look much like a 'scope' to I just saw several DOZEN Tek 7000 series scopes thrown in the scrap. I checked and found that they're nearly worthless now. A friend of mine put one on E-bay starting at $20 and never got a bid on it! Looks like a bargain to me! > >Actually, those pods are relatively 'benign' in that the signals to the >analyser are differential 10K-seriea ECL signals. It's not hard to make >up TTL-compatable input adapters, etc. > >Not as good as the real pod, but better than no analyser at all. > >> Students these days don't learn squat about using analog scopes, and > >Tell me about it. Actually, I am not sure what students _do_ learn these >days... I know for a fact that none of the colleges or universitys around here even use scopes any more! If you want to find somebody that knows how to use one you don't want a college graduate, you want an X-military technician or a ham (amateur radio operator). VERY few of the electronics hobbiest types even know how to use a scope these days. > >> there is a LOT you can do with one if you know how. Delayed sweep, > >As I mentioned the other day, I've never used a DSO for real work. I've >always made do with an analogue scope, and I think I know how to do some >useful things with it. > >My view is that you'll not get the best out of a DSO unless you fully >understand the use of an analogue 'scope I agree. I think it much more important that user's learn how to a basic scope (or any other instrument) and understand it and the measurement techniques instead of trying to learn how to operate some overly complicated and overly expensive fancy piece of gear. (in much the same way that the >best users of CNC tools are darn good machinists on manual machine >tools, in the same way that the best designers using CAD systems are also >the best designers without CAD systems...). > >> external trigger, etc. are there for a reason, and worth getting >> acquainted with. With delayed sweep and the Differential Comparator >> plugin (introduces a DC offset so you can look at the 'important' part > >Now why do you think I have 1A5 plug-in for my 555 ? > >> of the waveform at high gain) you can zoom in on tiny windows of >> repetetive waveforms as well as (better than, actually) any digital >> scope. > >And it's amazing how many signals can be made repetitive. A friend of >mine (a darn good hacker) debugged his homebrew 68K system with an old >Tekky analogue 'scope. He repeatedly pulsed the reset line to his system, >and connected that to the external trigger input of the 'scope. He then >looked at particular signals, 'scrolled through' them with the delayed >timebase and figured out what the processor was doing. > >You can't always do tricks like that (which is why DSOs are sometimes >very useful), but many times you can. Why exactly do you need a DSO for something like that? I do things like that all the time with my analog HP storage scope. It cost $20 at the local university hamfest last summer. FWIW I like Tektronix scopes better but I do like the storage feature on the HP. Joe > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 21:22:34 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:22:34 -0400 Subject: AVAILABLE: IBM PC (mdl 5150) w/mon and kb,IBM PS/30 (mdl 30) w/mon and kb In-Reply-To: References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721413AAAF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413222234.00b754c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:55 PM 4/13/05 -0400, 9000VAX wrote: >On 4/13/05, liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: >> >> On 13-Apr-2005 Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >> > Probably don't wanna ship em, or at least not too far. >> >> And yet you don't tell us where they are located. > >the country of "nl". Just because Fred is there doesn't necessarily mean that that's where the PC is. Joe > >> >> -Philip >> >> > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 21:57:51 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:57:51 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and make > it a serial analyzer on principle, though) How about one Z8530? :-) [it's a DUART, for the Zilog-impaired] The "problem" with picking something like a SYM-1 is that it lacks a suitable output device. A few digits just isn't all that useful when picking through a stream of serial data. I would have to say with my HP experiences, that a Commodore SX-64 is about entry-level for that, just because it's portable, has an expansion port for the serial chip, and has a built-in 40-col screen. That having been said, a real HP isn't much more expensive than what the SX-64s go for, and it's 1/2 the size and weight, and is already set up to do the job. In principle, I don't see a problem with trying to roll your own line analyzer, but having written a lot of code that bangs on Z8530s and 8250/16550s, I'm really happy that I have a working, ready-to-use bench tool to watch the serial stream for me. For what an HP eBays for, I can be up and snooping a whole lot faster... a time/money tradeoff that _I_ would load the money side of the equation for. -ethan From djg at drs-c4i.com Wed Apr 13 21:57:48 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:57:48 -0400 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks Message-ID: <200504140257.j3E2vme14956@drs-c4i.com> > Do you have any photos on your site of the innards of your AX08? I'm > curious what modules go into it. > If you click on the unit in the picture on my home page or the link at the bottom it will bring you to http://www.pdp8.net/ax08/ax08.shtml which has the modules listed and pictures. David Gesswein http://www.pdp8.net/ -- Run an old computer with blinkenlights. Have any PDP-8 stuff you're willing to part with? From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 13 22:19:40 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:19:40 -0400 Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050413223335.00b7f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <005901c53fbf$564038c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <3.0.6.32.20050413223335.00b7f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <425DE14C.4080307@internet1.net> I think the Sun Nvram faq is a good example of this, when dealing with battery replacement. The Faq author, clearly did not favor replacing the battery..... I on the other hand think it's the best way. Being that I am a bit stubborn at times, didn't let the faq deter me :-) I think the knowledge base is a great idea. Hopefully, it'll at least give the reader something to start with. Using the same nvram with a new battery hadn't occurred to me at all, until I read about it. I found another page where the guy did like the idea, and I ended up doing it myself. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Joe R. wrote: >>My experience is that FAQs often are taken in this way, even if that was >>not the original intention. > > > Tony has a good point. I think that the FAQ should clearly state that > the included statements are opinions and BELIEVED to be true but YMMV. > Prices, rarity and desirability vary, especially over time and distance and > depending on the latest fad or movie. > > Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 13 22:22:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:22:44 -0400 Subject: XEROX 820 CP/M PRIMER INFO PROCESSOR MANUAL Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050413232244.00b77830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Somebody needs to buy this and scan it and post it. Joe From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Apr 13 15:15:40 2005 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 16:15:40 -0400 Subject: In Spamo Veritas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050413161318.02bf0cf8@mail.n.ml.org> How about a termination function? Does it have a 'contempt' command (to place itself in)? How about a (speed) pump? [sort of like the *uhem* pumps a few judges in the US got disbarred for using in courtrooms, but for computers? lol] -John Boffemmyer IV At 03:56 PM 4/13/2005, you wrote: > From a bit of spam that I deleted, but this caught my eye and I parsed > it in terms of the List Topic - not what it actually refers to... > > > Judgment Processor > > > Does in have an 'impartiality pipeline'? > > >Cheers > >John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 22:31:47 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:31:47 -0400 Subject: For The PDP-8 Folks In-Reply-To: <200504140257.j3E2vme14956@drs-c4i.com> References: <200504140257.j3E2vme14956@drs-c4i.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, David Gesswein wrote: > If you click on the unit in the picture on my home page or the link at the > bottom it will bring you to > http://www.pdp8.net/ax08/ax08.shtml > which has the modules listed and pictures. Nice pics. I had no idea it was so large inside. BTW, your description calls the A series "auburn"... I always thought of them as Amber, FWIW. -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 22:39:36 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:39:36 -0500 Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413204657.04893d68@mail> Message-ID: <20050413223936.4a9e2565.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 21:59:35 -0400 (EDT) William Donzelli wrote: > > Being certified as an appraiser is one thing; it doesn't make > > you an expert with opinions about eBay and markets, does it? > > Well, it sort of does, these days. The antiques and collectables > market and Ebay are connected so much that they will probably never > come apart. Even the big traditional auction houses have been changed > by Ebay. > > If a person is a professional appraiser and chooses not to study or > include Ebay, that person is either a fool or ethically challenged (or > both). > > My take? Ebay is eighty or ninety percent of the market. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > 'Collectibles' is one of those icky words, though. People with an antiquarian bent really are a totally seperate thing from 'collectables.' 'Collectable' carries with it the important issue of scarcity. Many people 'collect' things specifically because they are scarce, and because they are scarce, without much a real focus of any sort on the history behind said items. And there are the many thriving 'created to be collectible' markets, like collector's plates, trading cards, etc. Which very much are 'fat' that needs to be 'cut away' from the statistics when determining how 'big' eBay is in the market. Who involved with real antiques or historical classic computer hardware, for that matter, cares primarily about the scarcity of the item in question. That's a speculators/hoarders market and driven by fads. For an (offtopic) illustration, I happen to enjoy collecting old minor copper coins from the British empire. I enjoy the history behind it. You'd find that things like 17th century British farthings can be had for a few dollars, because there isn't big 'competition' in the collector's market for them. If I wanted to blow a whole lot of money chasing after highly desirable 'rarities,' I could instead collect US Silver Dollars, or US Large Cents. But it doesn't interest me, in fact the 'compete to get the rare thing nobody else has' aspect turns me off to it. Remember, eBay all started because of Pez dispenser collecting. Regular old kitch, a 'scarcity' driven market if there ever was one. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 22:43:45 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:43:45 -0500 Subject: XEROX 820 CP/M PRIMER INFO PROCESSOR MANUAL In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050413232244.00b77830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050413232244.00b77830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050413224345.1dfbf4a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:22:44 -0400 "Joe R." wrote: > Somebody needs to buy this and scan it and post it. > 4646760&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> > > Joe > It looks interesting and all, but does it contain anything really unique about the Xerox 820? The table of contents makes it look like a pretty general 'intro to CP/M' type book. I have 'complete' docs, including schematics, for the 820's cousin the 'Big Board.' Have these been scanned and uploaded? Maybe I should dig it out of storage if not. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 13 22:50:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:50:15 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:57:51 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/13/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > > (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and make > > it a serial analyzer on principle, though) > > How about one Z8530? :-) [it's a DUART, for the Zilog-impaired] > The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it severely bandwidth cramped? I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the Sparcstations, correct me if I'm wrong. A few years ago I was pondering making a 'dialup connecting system with NAT server' out of a SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox type Sparc). I discovered quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY speed constrained because of the 8530 chip. It would have been impossible to connect my USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say 57,600 baud, because the 8530 just plain won't go that fast. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 13 23:08:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 00:08:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <20050413223936.4a9e2565.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > 'Collectibles' is one of those icky words, though. People with an > antiquarian bent really are a totally seperate thing from > 'collectables.' 'Collectable' carries with it the important issue of > scarcity. Many people 'collect' things specifically because they are > scarce, and because they are scarce, without much a real focus of any > sort on the history behind said items. The real definition is the 100 year mark. Over 100 years, it is an antique. Less, a collectable. The lines get blurred, however. Yes, real antique dealers generally don't mix with collectables. One reason is the image (they don't want to tarnish their image with sub-$1000 "junk"). The other reason is money - there is a lot more in the antiques market. Selling collectables is a waste of their time. On the other hand, collectable traders often have no problems dealing in antiques. > And there are the many thriving 'created to be collectible' markets, > like collector's plates, trading cards, etc. Which very much are 'fat' > that needs to be 'cut away' from the statistics when determining how > 'big' eBay is in the market. Who involved with real antiques or > historical classic computer hardware, for that matter, cares primarily > about the scarcity of the item in question. That's a > speculators/hoarders market and driven by fads. Computers will not be antiques for quite a few more years (about 50, I suppose). EVERYTHING becomes a collectable, then everything becomes an antique. It has nothing to do with scarcity - there is a demand for just about every mundane thing I can think of (even old bottlecaps, just like Bert). And yes, speculators and hoarders exist in every market - from Pez to Picasso. Even things that are made to be collectable become collectables on their own, and then antiques. Look at "junk" from the past Worlds Fairs, or for that matter the "junk" ceramics and silverplate from 19th century Britain, or the "junk" they used to sell at the Colluseum. As far as Ebay "fat" is concerned - if the fat is changing the market, it better be counted. The fat has always been around - pre-Ebay - and has an effect. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 14 00:23:03 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504140530.BAA06625@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and [...]) >> How about one Z8530? :-) [it's a DUART, for the Zilog-impaired] > The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it > severely bandwidth cramped? I don't think so, not per se. > I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the Sparcstations, correct > me if I'm wrong. No, that's right as far as it goes - most SPARCstations, at least. > A few years ago I was pondering making a 'dialup connecting system > with NAT server' out of a SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox > type Sparc). Well, _one_ of the lunchbox SPARCs. (The others are the IPC, the IPX, and the LX.) > I discovered quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY > speed constrained because of the 8530 chip. It would have been > impossible to connect my USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say > 57,600 baud, because the 8530 just plain won't go that fast. While this is true of the 8530 *as used in the SPARCstations*, this is largely because of the clock Sun chose to drive it with. Use a faster clock and your baud rate cap goes up correspondingly. (Presumably there is a limit on the clock rate, but I don't know what it is; I'm fairly sure it's well above what Sun uses, at least.) Now, depending on the associated electronics, there may be other limits. For example, the 8530 has discouragingly little buffering on-chip; to run at high baud rates you will need to either (a) add buffering in front of it, (b) handle a relatively high rate of interrupts, or (c) do some rather delicate bare-metal tapdancing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From technobug at comcast.net Thu Apr 14 01:00:46 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:00:46 -0700 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <200504140117.j3E1HIpf048076@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504140117.j3E1HIpf048076@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <954920230d9e3cd1a0132d47ce7103e0@comcast.net> Jay asked: > I'm not sure what these things are called... but I need some. I'm > calling them plastic "push rivets", where a plastic plunger pushes > through a collar with 3 or 4 plastic legs. These legs break off. > > All the ones I've seen so far are a pretty common size. However, the > ones I need two of at the moment are slightly smaller than that. > Specifically, these are the two plastic push rivets from an HP 264X > terminal that hold the metal cover over the CRT. > > Anyone ever find a source for these? Both my local electronics places > came up empty. > > Regards, > > Jay West There are many plastics companies out there with variations of these thingies (e.g. - browse for rivets, screws, nuts... On the eastern side of the pond check out ). I've always had luck scrounging samples from the companies when I've need only a few of an item. CRC From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 01:07:57 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 02:07:57 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it severely > bandwidth cramped? I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the > Sparcstations, correct me if I'm wrong. A few years ago I was pondering > making a 'dialup connecting system with NAT server' out of a > SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox type Sparc). I discovered > quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY speed constrained > because of the 8530 chip. It would have been impossible to connect my > USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say 57,600 baud, because the > 8530 just plain won't go that fast. That's a SPARC design-dependent limitation... the same Z8530 is used in the Macs as an AppleTalk/LocalTalk controller. We used the Z8530 in our Qbus and VAXBI COMBOARDs up to 128kbps (and no faster because of external device compatibility, not any inherent speed limitations. Limitations aside, unless you want to scope out T1 or fractional-T1 serial links, the chip is plenty fast enough. In my experience, a lot of the links one wants to scope are between 110 bps and 56kbps, anyway. -ethan From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 14 02:25:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:25:08 +0100 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <005001c5408b$164687c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200504140724.j3E7OmIw052578@dewey.classiccmp.org> Jay wrote: > So yes, this place has the ones used in the Vt100. Bear in > mind the items I'm talking about have a large plugner you > grab with two fingers under, thumb over. These are not tiny "rivets". Ah, OK. Time to do what Dwight suggests then, and go and look myself :) a From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 14 02:27:59 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 08:27:59 +0100 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <200504140001.RAA01761@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200504140727.j3E7Rbrl052624@dewey.classiccmp.org> Dwight wrote: > Hi > I think you are talking about the ones on page 3110. > Come on, as Sellam would say, "are you web impaired". Just > bring up the web page and look for your self. > Geesh! What? And spoil someone else's time consuming research? :) Much better to ride on coat-tails....plus, I opened up one of the links and was confronted with a wall of words which was a bit much on a 1600x1200 desktop :) a From david at cantrell.org.uk Thu Apr 14 06:21:10 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:21:10 +0100 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050412164619.03b0e538@mail.30below.com> References: <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> <20050412084338.V1423@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20050412164619.03b0e538@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20050414112109.GA5887@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Tue, Apr 12, 2005 at 04:49:26PM -0400, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that John Foust may have mentioned these words: > >Any old ASCII art program would do it, no? I think there > >are tools that can turn bitmaps to ASCII, so why not? > I'm sure there are. ontopically, wasn't there a version of doom (original) > that could be played via serial terminal? It turned all the grafix, walls, > etc. to text? Hell, there's an X server that pulls that trick: http://www.meow.org.uk/stan/xserver/dumps.html -- David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information NANOG makes me want to unplug everything and hide under the bed -- Brian D. Foy From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 14 08:51:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:51:26 -0400 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <0IEX00L6QVSS6QK5@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? > From: Scott Stevens > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:50:15 -0500 > >> >> How about one Z8530? :-) [it's a DUART, for the Zilog-impaired] >> > >The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it severely >bandwidth cramped? I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the Nope, it's a 2mb/s part thats what the DMA is for. Even the Z80 dart a earlier part was good for more than 800kb/s. >Sparcstations, correct me if I'm wrong. A few years ago I was pondering >making a 'dialup connecting system with NAT server' out of a >SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox type Sparc). I discovered >quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY speed constrained >because of the 8530 chip. It would have been impossible to connect my >USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say 57,600 baud, because the >8530 just plain won't go that fast. That was implmentation not the part. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 14 10:13:07 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:13:07 -0400 Subject: XEROX 820 CP/M PRIMER INFO PROCESSOR MANUAL In-Reply-To: <20050413224345.1dfbf4a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050413232244.00b77830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050413232244.00b77830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050414111307.0094f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:43 PM 4/13/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 23:22:44 -0400 >"Joe R." wrote: > >> Somebody needs to buy this and scan it and post it. >> > 4646760&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW> >> >> Joe >> >It looks interesting and all, but does it contain anything really unique >about the Xerox 820? I have no idea, I've never seen it. The table of contents makes it look like a pretty >general 'intro to CP/M' type book. I have 'complete' docs, including >schematics, for the 820's cousin the 'Big Board.' Have these been >scanned and uploaded? Not as far as I know. I searched for them without success but it's been a couple of years ago. Maybe I should dig it out of storage if not. Yes you should. I need docs explaining how to connect the hard drive and configure it and the controller. Joe > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Apr 14 10:48:19 2005 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:48:19 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: One use of a protocol analyzer. In one of my previous lives I worked for AT&T Western Electric. I arrived just as Ma Bell and the Babies were splitting, around 1983-1984. We used a protocol analyzer all the time when troubleshooting our Gerber photo plotter. The Gerber plotter used a series of collimated apertures to generate lines in the photoresist of master circuit masks. We were making masks for circuits and the plotter would have issues with some of the plots we generated. The Plotter ran in a dark room over a granite table to make the master mask. One problem was that occasionally on very long lines the plotter had timing issues. We found that plotting several shorter lines worked better. Also we had problems when drawing "circles" which were actually many sided polygons. We used a HP protocol analyzer and found that we could create and try different sets of test cases very rapidly. We would also store up the entire set of plot commands and replay them trying different permutations. We generated the production plot commands using a "C" program on an AT&T 3B2 or on one of our PDP-11/70's. All of our production systems were dual PDP-11/70's. Each unit had its own pair of disks and a connection to a shared dual ported drive that we used as a swap drive for backups. We could tweak commands using the protocol analyzer, change plot line widths, plotter speed, and select a different aperture, and modify acceleration and deceleration rates. Kind of like playing with HPGL commands. I can't remember if I went to the week long class to learn how to operate the unit. I know that Western Electric was big on training classes. Mike From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Apr 14 10:51:55 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:51:55 -0400 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <002b01c54080$27467e50$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200504141551.j3EFpuIa007698@mail.bcpl.net> On 13 Apr 2005 at 18:25, Jay West wrote: > I'd recommend others check out this places' [McMaster-Carr's] online > catalog. [...] They seem to have it all. If I was stuck on an deserted island with one catalog, and UPS could do air drops, the McMaster catalog is the one I'd pick. Their paper catalog runs to 3500+ pages (7.5 pounds), their nearest warehouse to me is 120 miles away, and I can place an order for darn-near anything at 8 PM one night and have it in my hands by noon the next day with ground shipping. My last order of 13 items included case-hardened flat washers for milling machine clamps, a threaded ball valve, a corner-rounding end mill, a tube of acrylic cement, one foot of 2-inch by 5-inch rectangular aluminum tube, a needle file, and a lithium battery. Everything was in stock, and they arrived the next day all in the same box. I'll be ordering several types of foam rubber to restore my HP 7925 disc drive shortly (they list a dozen pages of foam rubbers). My experience with them over a number of years has been uniformly excellent. Their warehouse must be something else (unless there is more call for corner-rounding end mills and rectangular tubing than I imagine :-). -- Dave From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 14 11:25:41 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? Message-ID: <200504141625.JAA02208@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >>Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? >> From: Scott Stevens >> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:50:15 -0500 >> >>> >>> How about one Z8530? :-) [it's a DUART, for the Zilog-impaired] >>> >> >>The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it severely >>bandwidth cramped? I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the > >Nope, it's a 2mb/s part thats what the DMA is for. Even the Z80 dart >a earlier part was good for more than 800kb/s. > >>Sparcstations, correct me if I'm wrong. A few years ago I was pondering >>making a 'dialup connecting system with NAT server' out of a >>SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox type Sparc). I discovered >>quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY speed constrained >>because of the 8530 chip. It would have been impossible to connect my >>USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say 57,600 baud, because the >>8530 just plain won't go that fast. > >That was implmentation not the part. > >Allison Hi As I recall it was the selection of the crystal frequency. Dwight From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Apr 14 11:27:25 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:27:25 +0100 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? References: <00d201c5405d$df7a5640$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <015401c5406f$8d7c5390$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <001201c5410e$d849f400$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Brown" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2005 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Beacon" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 7:20 AM > Subject: Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? > > > snip > > > > Tony, I also have two scrap TDMS chassis (a 5 and a 6), which have > > had the > > polar relays, CRT's and valves removed, but they do still have the > > transformers, switches and sockets. Do you need any spares, before > > they get > > cannabalised? > > > > Jim. > > > IIRC one of those 'polar relays' is not- it's actually the QBF > message generating coder-a very clever little electromechanical device > with a "disc" memory. And that spiral timebase was something else - > very clever - more modern TDMS variants with linear displays were > never the same..... > DaveB, NZ > You're quite right Dave, but as it's missing, I was saving on the typing :) Jim. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 14 11:27:54 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:27:54 -0500 Subject: DEC H734A? Message-ID: <200504141127.54761.pat@computer-refuge.org> (Resending to see if I can catch "the right" people this time.) In a haul of DEC (and other) stuff last week, I got a DEC H734A power supply, not attached to anything. Can anyone tell me what this goes to? Google doesn't have very many hits, and it's not on the the qbus/unibus field guide. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 14 11:38:59 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 12:38:59 -0400 Subject: IBM SYSTEM 34 Message-ID: <200504141239.00491.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I have been contacted by someone who has " two working IBM System 34 1980 vintage mainframes. Complete with all documentation and operator console." There is no dock, but the units are on casters and will roll up the loading ramp of a uhaul truck or similar. He wants them to go to a good home otherwise I will have to send them to a metal recycler for crushing. They are located in Ottawa Canada. For anyone needing a reminder of what these look like you can look here http://www.chd.dyndns.org/IBM/ -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 14 12:05:09 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504131650.j3DGoMi6039113@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504131650.j3DGoMi6039113@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050413122213.V1060@localhost> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I think a bigger problem, and one that needs to be solved first, is > determining the size and scope of our hobby. How can even experts like > Sellam say "this hobby, as a whole, is so un/mis-informed..." when we're not > sure what that "whole" is in the first place? No offense meant Evan, or any other proponents of this thread, but I disagree that we need taxonomic analysis of what's essentially a hobby. To what end this finely dividing us into categories? While I recognize that the occasional artifact has intrinsic value, most artifacts do not, no matter how old, and people prop up insecurity with the alleged monetary value of their toys. I like and use old computers, but I don't fool myself that they all have any value to anyone but me and occasionally a tiny minority of fellow fans. I don't need to have monetary value attached to artifacts I like to convince others they are worthwhile. I fully engage and am comfortable with the need, and simple desire, to buy, sell and even profit from "fun" artifacts, but I intensely dislike the commodification of the culture itself and will do what I can to undermine that. Commodication of culture is a horrible capitalist tendency. I hope this stops here. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 14 12:08:34 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:08:34 +0100 Subject: DEC H734A? In-Reply-To: <200504141127.54761.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <003c01c54114$99006b20$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In a haul of DEC (and other) stuff last week, I got a DEC > H734A power supply, not attached to anything. Can anyone > tell me what this goes to? Google doesn't have very many > hits, and it's not on the the qbus/unibus field guide. I can tell you that the H734-B is supposedly the 240V variant, and it spits out +15V/-15V both @ 12A. There seem to be one or two places that list it online. They have toll-free numbers, so if you cannot get any joy anywhere else in a week or two, you could try calling. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 14 12:12:00 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> References: <200504130003.j3D036Eq029628@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050412185948.X52698@shell.lmi.net> <6.2.1.2.2.20050413090208.04dda170@mail> <6.2.1.2.2.20050413144451.0507c348@mail> Message-ID: <20050414100843.Y678@localhost> On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, John Foust wrote: > From: "Gregory Whitten" > On the Joel Spolsky subject he was a basically ignorant junior employee > who left Microsoft after a short number of years. OUCH! Axe-grinding in public! (More accurately, axe-swinging post-sharpening.) What happened to mellowing with the years and all that rot? Sounds like someone needs a (non-Microsoft) life! > [...] The applications group spent > 30 man-years integrating custom interfaces for each application with the > Office 95 applications. In Office 98 they tossed it all and went back > to my original suggestion which only took 1.5 man-years to develop and > provided better commonality and learning between the applications. -and- > I did a few other "minor" things (when I was not having lunch with Bill) > like setting the object technology strategy for the entire company > including working on the design of OS/2 and an object oriented version Modest too. From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 14 12:21:48 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <015c01c54072$47a4cfc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com><16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL><20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123326.H1060@localhost> <015c01c54072$47a4cfc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <20050414101424.K678@localhost> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Dave Brown wrote: > Tee Tek 500 series scopes certainly don't suffer from electromechanical > issues. (one exception- fan motor bearings-but easily fixed) Most owners > will die before the scope does - possibly from a hernia or heart attack > bought on from heaving those large weighty beasts around! I still have a > 545B and a 585 -plus a fleet of plugins. Excellent scopes. I agree on all counts :-) My 564 (storage scope, with a bloomy tube, but I use it only as a PostScript display (sic) http://wps.com/products/Story-Teller/technical/machine-words/index.html still lives on. THe switches are full-sized; the newer scopes are very compact. It's not a quality issue per se; everything eventually dies. 465's et al are very well built, but get heavily used, and have far more complex switching needs than the 5xx scopes; huge strings of tiny wafers. Cabinet is smaller and hotter. Lighter weight materials -- you get to carry a 465 around without a kidney belt or physical therapy. The price paid is that parts aren't 5X overkill oversized. I've got a TDS-2012 (or something like that) it's just great. Center trigger display, tunable everything. It's NOT a 465, it's a different beast. It iwll generate funny artifacts if you don't know what it's doing (dot vs. vector, 1X vs 16X ingtegrate, etc) but the analog scopes have their equivelant oddities -- you just get used to each. I love my Nova, old CP/M machine, and LGP-21, but I type this on a battery powered, wireless laptop. From marvin at rain.org Thu Apr 14 12:26:10 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:26:10 -0700 Subject: And $500 gets you... Message-ID: <425EA7B2.A4D9D48F@rain.org> Scott Stevens said: > > Remember, eBay all started because of Pez dispenser collecting. Regular ISTR that this is not true; that story was created for marketing purposes with no basis in fact. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Apr 14 12:50:45 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:50:45 -0400 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... References: <200504131650.j3DGoMi6039113@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050413122213.V1060@localhost> Message-ID: <004d01c5411a$7c840870$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" Cc: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:05 PM Subject: RE: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... > I don't need to have monetary value attached to artifacts I like > to convince others they are worthwhile. > When I add to my collection I assume that the money spent will never be recovered (the device has no value except to my curiosity). This attitude keeps me from buying anything I really don't want and it keeps me from buying on speculation that the thing will rise in value. From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 14 12:55:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:55:17 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:21:48 PDT." <20050414101424.K678@localhost> Message-ID: <200504141755.j3EHtHKY017821@mwave.heeltoe.com> Tom Jennings wrote: > >I've got a TDS-2012 (or something like that) it's just great. I've got a TDS 2024 and love it. Miss my old huge Tek scope but it stopped at 150mhz and was a little long in the tooth. Still works, however. Plus it only has 2 channels and the 2024 has 4. The new small digital o-scopes are so fast and easy use. I can capture something and measure it in short order. can't beat that. I would never use a 2024 for a 1ghz signal but for most of these little sub 200mhz SOC boards it's perfect. plus, love the color traces :-) (this from a man who makes his emacs font green because it reminds him of a hazeltine :-) -brad From charlesmorris at direcway.com Thu Apr 14 13:09:03 2005 From: charlesmorris at direcway.com (charlesmorris at direcway.com) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:09:03 -0400 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/A programmer's panel Message-ID: <2fdf6af2fdbf1c.2fdbf1c2fdf6af@direcway.com> Looking for the programmer's panel (the one with the octal keypad and display) for a PDP-8/A. thanks Charles From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Apr 14 13:49:06 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:49:06 +0100 Subject: Old Tek Scopes, was Oscilloscope question Message-ID: <00c001c54122$a34db700$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> A few words about the older (500 series) scopes, which have had a few mentions in the main thread: they do suffer from switch failure, usually due to poor maintenance, and the switches are specials, the only source is another scope, and it usually has to be one of teh same model. The Paxolin wafers are also susceptable to insulation breakdown ( the insulation has to be good, some of the trigger switches have 500V potential difference between adjacent contacts), though this is often caused by the use of inapropiate switch cleaner, or excessive lubricant - NEVER spoary WD40, Duck Oil or the like on a switch! Use the proper cleaner, and contact lubricant, sparingly. Clock oil is useful for lubricating the bush part of the switch (where the spindle goes through the frame), and a light grease for the detent mechanism. I have had some luck at recovering these switches when contaminated, but it involves removing them, from the scope, soaking in de-greaser, drying, and then lubricating properly - not for the faint hearted. The all valve (tube) scopes are usually fairly easy to get parts for (545, 545A, 535, 535A etc), and fairly easy to maintain and repair (I know 100 valves looks daunting, but they can be broken down into small sections for fault finding. The hybrid scopes like the 545B can have some strange transistors in them, which are very difficult to source, and expensive to buy. Some of the later models (including the 545B and 547) have an EHT transformer that is prone to failure - it can be re-wound, but it will cost you $50 (more if your outside the USA). A lot of the later, high speed units (547, 585, 453, 454 etc), as well as some of the faster plugins (1S1, 1S2, and some of the 3 series timebases) have tunnel diode trigger circuits. These are excellent, fast, stable trigger circuits, but the tunnel diodes are now very rare and expensive. Having said that, I have several of these beasts (535A, 545A & B, 547, 585, 561, 564 and 564A), in various states of repair. The 535A gets used regularly, and is currently at work, as I needed a scope with a stable low frequency trigger, and a differential input - our modern Philips scopes don't like triggering at 25Hz! The 564 is a useful analogue storage unit, though it only has a 10MHz bandwidth. The 547 is a good 50MHz scope (with the right plug-in), and the 585 should go to 100MHz (but only for the first 5 minutes after calibration, 85MHz is more like it - still not bad for an all valve scope!). They are all good scopes to use, but you do need to understand them and play with them before you try to do serious work, the have lots interesting little idiosynchrasies. Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Thu Apr 14 13:55:12 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:55:12 -0400 Subject: DEC H734A? In-Reply-To: <200504141127.54761.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504141127.54761.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <425EBC90.nailNFZ11CAXY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > I got a DEC H734A power supply >From the option/module list, it's a "19 x 10.5 inch, +15V 12A, -15V 12A, AC LO, DC LO, 120V, Remote/local DC PWR, RK02,03". Sometimes stuff like this was re-used in later equipment without the option/module guide being updated to reflect it. Tim. From jeff at selectcomputer.net Thu Apr 14 11:19:27 2005 From: jeff at selectcomputer.net (Jeff Silverman) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:19:27 -0700 Subject: Not quite tubes... but still.... Message-ID: I hope this is Davids address, i was reading some old information in a news group and i wanted to let you know that i run across all types of older computer equipment on a daily basis, and i deal with 20-30 different scrap dealers as well, so anything you need cplease contact me iit would help to even send a wish list and feel free to give out my contact info to anyone that may need my help. best regards, Jeff Silverman Select Computer Technology Inc. 774 Charcot Ave, San Jose, Ca 95131 Tel: 408-944-9475 Fax: 408-944-9476 From andyda at earthlink.net Thu Apr 14 12:44:26 2005 From: andyda at earthlink.net (Andy Dannelley) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:44:26 -0700 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: My AIM 65 has been sitting in the original box since about 1985. I think it was working when I packed it up, the only reason I packed it up was I got my first Mac and didn't have room on my desk for both, so the AIM got packed. Anyway, I got out my power supply, checked it out, sure enough +5v was still +5v and +24 v was still +24v. I then unpacked the AIM, trying to be as "static sensitive" as possible, then visually inspected it for obvious problems (anti-static material stuck on pins) and then did a little re-seat of all the socketed ICs. plugged in the keybaord, connected the +5v only and applied power... Nothing, no display, nothing I checked the +5 at a TP on the board and it appeared OK.. I then checked the ICs again and appllied power again... nothing. Well, it then thought I would see what happens if I apply the +24v and +5v. Connected it up turned it on, nothing... upon turining it off the printer cycled ( think it was just an electro-mechanical thing, not control). Well, remove power, inspect the board again, blow off any dust, gently, partly remove all the socketed ICs (not out of the sockets) in hopes that maybe if there was some oxidation it would wipe it off. Connected the +5v only and turned it on again... nothing, nada, zilch (bummer) I don't have a scope or anything, I only have a VOM, so my testing is rather limited, I don't even know anyone who still has an o'scope. Any ideas of what I could try? Any ideas of a way I can get it repaired in So. CA? Thanks for any and all help or ideas, Andy From mhscc at canada.com Thu Apr 14 14:10:27 2005 From: mhscc at canada.com (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 15:10:27 -0400 Subject: DP8303 (was SYM-1 vs KIM-1) Message-ID: <01C54104.3D754F60@H82.C223.tor.velocet.net> ------------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 17:23:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Hi I'm looking for a DP8303 but with some software changes I could most likely get a DP8304 to work. Dwight ------------------Reply: Hi I should have a couple of DP8304BNs (apparently equivalent to INS8208BNs). If you're still looking, email off-list & I'll look for them. mike From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Apr 14 15:56:44 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:56:44 +0100 Subject: plastic "push rivets"?? In-Reply-To: <200504141551.j3EFpuIa007698@mail.bcpl.net> References: <200504141551.j3EFpuIa007698@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: In message <200504141551.j3EFpuIa007698 at mail.bcpl.net> "J. David Bryan" wrote: [ McMaster-Carr ] > Their warehouse must be something else (unless there is more call for > corner-rounding end mills and rectangular tubing than I imagine :-). I've had a quick look at their online catalogue - very neat. Shame there's nothing like that in the UK (maybe there is, but I haven't seen anything like it yet)... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... "Bother", said Pooh, as he saw "Filecore in use." From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 14 16:33:14 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:33:14 -0700 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... References: <200504131650.j3DGoMi6039113@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050413122213.V1060@localhost> Message-ID: <425EE19A.4D911D45@msm.umr.edu> It is not captialist vs. some pure ideology that we should discuss. I think you are mistaking greed that is pervasive these days in this society with the need to make sure that there is some value attached to things. I do mind seeing the latest gizmo go on sale for $500 rather than $50 on ebay, but there will always be a bunch of people to try to do that. I don't see that anything will be a commodity just because it has a $ value. Jim Tom Jennings wrote: > > Commodication of culture is a horrible capitalist tendency. I hope > this stops here. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 16:38:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:38:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GW-Basic In-Reply-To: <200504132340.QAA01753@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504132340.QAA01753@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <53626.207.145.53.202.1113514692.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Dwight wrote: > The only think I thought, as I read his point of view, was > that since he was so great at coding and projects at uSoft, > why has the product been so shitty for the years he was there > and finally looks like it has begin to stablize once he was gone? I can't explain any putative stabilization after, but certainly a company with good technical managers can still produce bad software. There's no way a good manager can force a "mongolian horde" programming team (also sometimes known as an "army of golems") to produce a good product. It's hard enough to do that with a small team of carefully selected expert programmers, and there seems to be a very limited supply of those. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 16:39:40 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new classiccmp.org service In-Reply-To: References: <005901c53fbf$564038c0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 12, 5 07:25:46 pm Message-ID: <53793.207.145.53.202.1113514780.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > I've learnt over the years that if > you get two experts together, they will not agree on most things. They > won't start a flamewar, but they will have different views, different > ways of doing things, and so on. Will not! :-) Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 16:42:37 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) In-Reply-To: <200504140111.SAA01780@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504140111.SAA01780@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <54213.207.145.53.202.1113514957.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Dwight wrote: > I'm looking for a DP8303 but with some software > changes I could most likely get a DP8304 to work. Ethan wrote: > Oooh... you are right... that is an unusual one. I don't even > recognize the number. Wonder why they picked something that was so > far out of mainstream. Those were commonly available parts back when. They predated the 74xx series octal buffers/transceivers. Eric From news at computercollector.com Thu Apr 14 16:45:09 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 17:45:09 -0400 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <20050413122213.V1060@localhost> Message-ID: <200504142143.j3ELhxQX059369@dewey.classiccmp.org> >>>>> people prop up insecurity with the alleged monetary value of their toys. ... I don't need to have monetary value attached to artifacts I like to convince others they are worthwhile. Wow, even though you said "no offense", that's still a heck of an accusation. I wouldn't object if it was somehow grounded in evidence. I was simply doubting Sellam's definition of "the market" by reminding us all that we on classiccmp alone are hardly "the market" in question. I'm baffled how you translated that into "Evan and anyone else concerned about the value of their collections must be an insecure doofus." >>>> do what I can to undermine that... horrible capitalist tendency... You must be hanging around Michael Sokolov again. :) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Jennings Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:05 PM Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > I think a bigger problem, and one that needs to be solved first, is > determining the size and scope of our hobby. How can even experts > like Sellam say "this hobby, as a whole, is so un/mis-informed..." > when we're not sure what that "whole" is in the first place? No offense meant Evan, or any other proponents of this thread, but I disagree that we need taxonomic analysis of what's essentially a hobby. To what end this finely dividing us into categories? While I recognize that the occasional artifact has intrinsic value, most artifacts do not, no matter how old, and people prop up insecurity with the alleged monetary value of their toys. I like and use old computers, but I don't fool myself that they all have any value to anyone but me and occasionally a tiny minority of fellow fans. I don't need to have monetary value attached to artifacts I like to convince others they are worthwhile. I fully engage and am comfortable with the need, and simple desire, to buy, sell and even profit from "fun" artifacts, but I intensely dislike the commodification of the culture itself and will do what I can to undermine that. Commodication of culture is a horrible capitalist tendency. I hope this stops here. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 16:52:14 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <55413.207.145.53.202.1113515534.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Scott wrote: > The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it severely > bandwidth cramped? No, unless you're comparing to Ethernet. > I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the > Sparcstations, correct me if I'm wrong. I think you're right. > A few years ago I was pondering > making a 'dialup connecting system with NAT server' out of a > SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox type Sparc). I discovered > quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY speed constrained > because of the 8530 chip. It would have been impossible to connect my > USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say 57,600 baud, because the > 8530 just plain won't go that fast. Sounds like a problem with Solaris. The chip is easily capable of over 1 Mbps. There's a commonplace existence proof of the ability of the Z8530 to do over 230 Kbps -- that's what was used for LocalTalk (low-end physical layer of AppleTalk, originally simply called AppleTalk) on most Macintoshes from 1984 to the mid 1990s. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 14 16:59:45 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the 'Market' was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <425EE19A.4D911D45@msm.umr.edu> References: <200504131650.j3DGoMi6039113@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050413122213.V1060@localhost> <425EE19A.4D911D45@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <56085.207.145.53.202.1113515985.squirrel@207.145.53.202> > you are mistaking greed that is pervasive these days in this > society You say that like it's a bad thing. Greed is what makes free markets work efficiently. When you're buing a product, it's in your best interest for it to be the case that everyone else buying that product is trying to maximize the value they receive per money spent. Similarly, when you're a seller, it's in your best interest that all the other sellers are trying to maximize their money received per product sold. > I do mind seeing the latest gizmo go on sale for $500 rather than $50 > on ebay, but there will always be a bunch of people to try to do that. And either there will be people willing to buy that that price, or the price will drop, or the sellers will stop trying to sell them. Eric From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Apr 14 18:11:57 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:11:57 -0400 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504142143.j3ELhxQX059369@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <20050413122213.V1060@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050414181953.049ef528@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Computer Collector Newsletter may have mentioned these words: [[ Ungh. - I wasn't going to jump into the fray on this one... but... Well, I'll say "Just this once." Blame it on CRI. ]] > >>>>> people prop up insecurity with the alleged monetary value of their >toys. ... I don't need to have monetary value attached to artifacts I like >to convince others they are worthwhile. > >Wow, even though you said "no offense", that's still a heck of an >accusation. I wouldn't object if it was somehow grounded in evidence. This isn't directed as an attack, but you said that there's no evidence that the above happens.... That's patently wrong; as that's human nature. [[ And to me, it seemed to me that Tom was making generalizations; not pointing at you or any of us specifically. ]] A *lot* of people see my 2004 Chevy Avalanche as a toy -- and they respond in fashion. What I heard most is "Sweet Ride! What'd ya shell out for that?" and "Must be nice to be rich enough to afford an expensive toy like that!" I have yet to hear "How many HP does the engine crank?" or "Boy, I'll bet that rascal could pull people out of the ditch no problem!" (which I did twice this winter.) I needed a dependable pickup that hauls 5 comfortably (as my children are growing, and I doubt they're gonna stop even if I ask 'em nicely ;-). This truck does it, and does it well. I'm certainly not going to try to pull my trailer or haul lumber (or yank people out of the ditch) with an '84 Yugo! And used Avalanches in this town are rarer than Amiga 4000Ts! Until H^HDell, Goatway and HPieceOCrap came out with their sub-$1000 PCs, cost was the first thing I always heard discussed about computers as well (and not just mine, either).... ... *especially* when a large portion of the "unwashed masses" considered computers as unnecessary toys instead of tools. Now that durned near everyone's got [at least] one, the public opinion has changed a great deal. "The geek shall inherit the earth" isn't such a stretch anymore. ;-) >I was simply doubting Sellam's definition of "the market" by reminding us all >that we on classiccmp alone are hardly "the market" in question. Sellam was stating that ePay *alone* is hardly "the market." ePay's a part of it, so are we, so are the people who collect in silence. To say "I saw a frobsnark sell on ePay for 3 cachillion deutschmarks, so that's what mine's worth" is wrong, as it's not taking in many variables (location, rarity, condition, and most importantly "don't trust one stoopid ePayer with more money than brains" ;-) of "the market." On the flipside, if Sellam says "In my vast experience, I set the value of an Amiga 4000T with a 4Meg 3D Zorro III card at $70" that doesn't automagically make me an idiot if I pay $80 for one in Northern Michigan; as they're exceptionally rare here. (Granted, I probably have the only one in a 100 mile radius, so I'd have to buy it from *me*... which I suppose *would* make me an idiot... ;-) I've seen a WWII Enigma, yet I've never seen a PERQ. Which is rarer? (Heck, I've never seen a black Apple II!) > I'm >baffled how you translated that into "Evan and anyone else concerned about >the value of their collections must be an insecure doofus." I think he was trying to make the point more of "Why should we try to quantify a hobby in which a very small percentage of the population actually partake?" which is what you had said we should do. Is there a grading scale for condition of computers, like there is for coins? No. Should there be? I don't think so, as I don't think "the market" is going to grow to the point that it's necessary. How about mintages? Do we have much more than guesses as to how many of [insert favorite computer here] were made? How many survived? In most cases, no. However, until that grading scale exists, and actual "global rarity" data exists, valuation is going to be subjective, whether the primary datapoints you use are ePay or Sellam's brain. I'm with Tom - I don't *care* what my computer shiznit is worth. I do this because I enjoy the hobby. My coin collection mirrors my computer collection: 99% bog-standard crap, with a couple of rather interesting conversation pieces. I like my Canadian Large Cent collection just as much as my CoCo3 collection, and they're worth about the same amount - $20, tops. Maybe. > >>>> do what I can to undermine that... horrible capitalist tendency... > >You must be hanging around Michael Sokolov again. :) Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! He's sleeping! Best not to wake him up, else he might get cranky! ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 14 18:16:56 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:16:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: from "Andy Dannelley" at Apr 14, 5 10:44:26 am Message-ID: Warning : I've never actually seen an AIM65 'in the flesh'... > > My AIM 65 has been sitting in the original box since about 1985. I > think it was working when I packed it up, the only reason I packed it > up was I got my first Mac and didn't have room on my desk for both, so > the AIM got packed. > > Anyway, I got out my power supply, checked it out, sure enough +5v was > still +5v and +24 v was still +24v. I then unpacked the AIM, trying to > be as "static sensitive" as possible, then visually inspected it for > obvious problems (anti-static material stuck on pins) and then did a > little re-seat of all the socketed ICs. plugged in the keybaord, > connected the +5v only and applied power... Nothing, no display, Doesn't the AIM use a vacuum fluorescent display? Does it get it's power from a DC-DC converter on the board, or from the 24V input? If the latter, you'll get no display without the 24V supply. If the former, you could check the output of the DC-DC converter with your voltmeter. [...] > Well, remove power, inspect the board again, blow off any dust, > gently, partly remove all the socketed ICs (not out of the sockets) in > hopes that maybe if there was some oxidation it would wipe it off. > Connected the +5v only and turned it on again... nothing, nada, zilch > (bummer) > > I don't have a scope or anything, I only have a VOM, so my testing is > rather limited, I don't even know anyone who still has an o'scope. > > Any ideas of what I could try? Well, a logic probe would be _very_ useful. You would at least be able to see if the clock was running, ff bus lines were doing anything, etc. But I guess you don't have one.... Is your VOM analogue or digital? If it's analogue, you could measure the voltage on the address and data lines. If you get a voltage 'in the middle', it's likely that line is changing -- it's certainly not stuck high or low. All the data lines and at least the lower order address lines should be chnaging state. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 14 18:20:53 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:20:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC H734A? In-Reply-To: <425EBC90.nailNFZ11CAXY@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> from "shoppa_classiccmp@trailing-edge.com" at Apr 14, 5 02:55:12 pm Message-ID: > > > I got a DEC H734A power supply > > >From the option/module list, it's a "19 x 10.5 inch, +15V 12A, > -15V 12A, AC LO, DC LO, 120V, Remote/local DC PWR, RK02,03". Ah, that explains something. When I got my 11/45 (my first PDP11), it came with an RK11-C and a pile of printsets. Amongst them was the H734 printset. I never had the PSU, or knew why it was stuffed inside the RK11-C prints. I assume at one point it was used with RK03s... The RK02/03 is, are, of course, Diablo Model 30 drives. The Diablo PSU uses a ferroresonant transformer for regulation. DEC used transistors. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 14 17:55:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:55:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050413224651.00b80280@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 13, 5 10:46:51 pm Message-ID: > I know for a fact that none of the colleges or universitys around here > even use scopes any more! If you want to find somebody that knows how to > use one you don't want a college graduate, you want an X-military Should I take that as an insult? (becasue I think I do...). For the record, I am a 'college graduate'. I also believe I have some idea how to use a 'scope. Yes, there are things I don't know about said instruments. But darn it, I was using a 'scope before I even went to what you'd call high school.... Howeve, I don't know anyone who learnt to use a 'scope at college/university. All the hackers I know who can use one taught themselves... -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 14 18:24:08 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:24:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?) In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: SYM-1 vs KIM-1 (was Re: MOS Kim-1 Any idea of it's worth/value?)" (Apr 13, 20:51) References: <200504140023.RAA01766@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10504150024.ZM21941@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 13 2005, 20:51, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/13/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > >What's the part number? I might be able to help (I have tubes of > > >8641s, for example). > > > > I'm looking for a DP8303 but with some software > > changes I could most likely get a DP8304 to work. > > Oooh... you are right... that is an unusual one. I don't even > recognize the number. Do you have specs? Would it be possible to get > the right functionality (current drive, etc.) with more than one chip > on a daughter card and plug it into the socket for the DP8303? > > Wish I could help. > > Wonder why they picked something that was so far out of mainstream. They weren't unusual; I've seen quite a few on early 8-bit machines. The DP8304 is an octal tri-state non-inverting bidirectional transceiver, with PNP inputs and 48mA/300pF drive capability on the B outputs, 16mA on the A outputs (all of which are TTL and MOS compatible). ___ ___ A0 | 1 20 | Vcc A1 | 2 19 | B0 A2 | 3 18 | B1 A3 | 4 17 | B2 A4 | 5 16 | B3 A5 | 6 15 | B4 A6 | 7 14 | B5 A7 | 8 13 | B6 CD | 9 12 | B7 GND |10__11_| TRAN/notREC CD is Chip Disable; low enables the tri-state outputs TRAN/notREC low makes A output and B input TRAN/notREC high makes A input and B output DP8303 is the same but inverting; DP8307 and DP8308 are similar but with separate Transmit and Receive inputs. All were still current when my 1996 Nat Semi databook was printed, but the DP8304 was the most common, in my experience. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 14 18:49:29 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:49:29 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <200504140530.BAA06625@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200504140530.BAA06625@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20050414184929.7f730e55.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:23:03 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > >>> (not gonna wire two 6402 UARTS to my SYM-1 and [...]) > >> How about one Z8530? :-) [it's a DUART, for the Zilog-impaired] > > The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it > > severely bandwidth cramped? > > I don't think so, not per se. > > > I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the Sparcstations, > > correct me if I'm wrong. > > No, that's right as far as it goes - most SPARCstations, at least. > > > A few years ago I was pondering making a 'dialup connecting system > > with NAT server' out of a SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox > > type Sparc). > > Well, _one_ of the lunchbox SPARCs. (The others are the IPC, the IPX, > and the LX.) > Yes. My wording was crude and unclear. I also have multiple IPC's, IPX's and an LX. I think the LX is the one I consider the best of the form-factor. > > I discovered quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY > > speed constrained because of the 8530 chip. It would have been > > impossible to connect my USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, > > say 57,600 baud, because the 8530 just plain won't go that fast. > > While this is true of the 8530 *as used in the SPARCstations*, this is > largely because of the clock Sun chose to drive it with. Use a faster > clock and your baud rate cap goes up correspondingly. (Presumably > there is a limit on the clock rate, but I don't know what it is; I'm > fairly sure it's well above what Sun uses, at least.) I guess my comment was incorrect in that I was speaking of how the chip functions in Sun hardware, as above. I suspect the chip can 'scream' if fed the right clock. I'm also prejudiced because a few years back I worked in a team on a Intel 80296 based telemetry project that included an 8530 in the design. I never had to touch that code, but one of the guys who did absolutely despised the 8530. I took the liberty of handing him a copy of the NetBSD code for the chip, which I think helped him understand it a little better. If I'm not wrong (from my cursory glance over the datasheet) it's a very stateful part that the programmer has to be well versed in the care and feeding of. I probably WOULD be better acquainted with the chip, but the tube of 8530's that I once purchased on eBay, AND paid for, were never delivered by the seller. heh. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 14 18:52:30 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:52:30 -0500 Subject: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info? In-Reply-To: <55413.207.145.53.202.1113515534.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> <55413.207.145.53.202.1113515534.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050414185230.4be3d250.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 14:52:14 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Scott wrote: > > The 8530 is a useful part for dedicated purposes, but isn't it > > severely bandwidth cramped? > > No, unless you're comparing to Ethernet. > > > I am thinking that it's the serial chip in the > > Sparcstations, correct me if I'm wrong. > > I think you're right. > > > A few years ago I was pondering > > making a 'dialup connecting system with NAT server' out of a > > SparcStation Classic (the little lunchbox type Sparc). I discovered > > quickly that the serial ports on the Sparc are VERY speed > > constrained because of the 8530 chip. It would have been impossible > > to connect my USB Courier V-everything modem to it at, say 57,600 > > baud, because the 8530 just plain won't go that fast. > > Sounds like a problem with Solaris. It's probably a problem with Sun's hardware design. I was trying to get it up and running at high speed with NetBSD. I remember reading that there were some 'hacks' to get it running slightly faster than 57,600 baud but only at a few weird non-standard data rates. > The chip is easily capable of over > 1 Mbps. There's a commonplace existence proof of the ability of the > Z8530 to do over 230 Kbps -- that's what was used for LocalTalk > (low-end physical layer of AppleTalk, originally simply called > AppleTalk) on most Macintoshes from 1984 to the mid 1990s. > > Eric > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 14 18:52:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 19:52:12 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050413224651.00b80280@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050414195212.00b6d610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:55 PM 4/14/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I know for a fact that none of the colleges or universitys around here >> even use scopes any more! If you want to find somebody that knows how to >> use one you don't want a college graduate, you want an X-military > >Should I take that as an insult? (becasue I think I do...). For the >record, I am a 'college graduate'. So am I and I DEFINITELY know how to use a scope! I also believe I have some idea how to >use a 'scope. Yes, there are things I don't know about said instruments. >But darn it, I was using a 'scope before I even went to what you'd call >high school.... > >Howeve, I don't know anyone who learnt to use a 'scope at >college/university. All the hackers I know who can use one taught >themselves... That's exactly my point. I've never seen anyone that learned to use one in college. Everyone that I know that KNOWS how to use one either learned it in the military or is a self-taught hobbiest. Joe > >-tony > From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Apr 14 19:22:35 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:22:35 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050414195212.00b6d610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050413224651.00b80280@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050414201203.04e356d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words: >At 11:55 PM 4/14/05 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > >Howeve, I don't know anyone who learnt to use a 'scope at > >college/university. Yes you do... > > All the hackers I know who can use one taught themselves... I guess I'm not a hacker then. Should I be offended? ;-) >That's exactly my point. I've never seen anyone that learned to use >one in college. Everyone that I know that KNOWS how to use one either >learned it in the military or is a self-taught hobbiest. ::Raises hand sheepishly:: Basic 'scope usage was taught to all computer / electrical / robotics engineering students at my college ('85-87). As my father was against owning anything more complex than a 4-function calculator or color TV electronically, I never had the ability to learn to use one before college. Oh, and for the record: I *didn't* graduate. ;-/ Had a upper-level turnover at the school; the "new regime" decided to turn the college "liberal arts centric." They ditched most higher-level engineering courses, and I couldn't even finish my senior sequence of classes in CE or Robotics; so I dropped out and joined the workforce. This college was in the top 10 colleges in the *country* for robotics at the time, too! Dumbasses! ::Smacks Head:: Nowadays, I doubt you could find many students there that could *spell* oscilloscope, let alone tell you what one does... :-( Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 19:24:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:24:56 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/14/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > Warning : I've never actually seen an AIM65 'in the flesh'... That's OK... I have a couple and can fill in gaps. > Doesn't the AIM use a vacuum fluorescent display? Perhaps one of the later models, but every one I've seen has a set of 5 4-char ASCII LED modules driven by a 6520 (6821). +5VDC only. The +24V is for the thermal printer. I mentioned the usefulness of a logic probe in an offline message. If one doesn't have an o-scope to watch clocks, enables, etc., at least a logic probe will reveal some of the show stoppers (missing clock, missing RAM enables, etc.) I also mentioned to swap the RAM around in case one of the 2114s for the zero page has failed. 6502s do _not_ like errors in zero page or in the stack. Quite unforgiving. Other than the printer and the ASCII displays, there's nothing remarkable about the AIM-65 compared to any other 6502 SBC. It's SRAM, so there's no -ve supply voltages to worry about (like with 4116 DRAMs) and no refresh circuit to debug. The downside is that there's only room on the mainboard for 4K, so memory expansions are external, and used to cost a lot (and are rare now because there didn't use to be a wide variety of them). For those unfamiliar with the model, it was Rockwell's answer to the KIM and SYM, and was frequently found in a metal-bottomed, vacuformed-topped case, unlike the KIM and SYM which were frequently found as bare boards. The AIM-65 had BASIC as a rather common option (don't remember if it was always present), and routinely came with a full-sized ASCII keyboard to complement the hardcopy and/or ASCII LEDs. It's pretty useful out of the box for a machine that doesn't come with a disk interface. You certainly get more than the few digits and a calculator keypad of the KIM/SYM line. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 14 20:09:59 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 02:09:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050414201203.04e356d8@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Apr 14, 5 08:22:35 pm Message-ID: > > >Howeve, I don't know anyone who learnt to use a 'scope at > > >college/university. > > Yes you do... Ah, but as you said, you didn't graduate... > > > > All the hackers I know who can use one taught themselves... > > I guess I'm not a hacker then. Should I be offended? ;-) Well, I've been told I'm not a hacker either... I don't think you should be offended, therefore. [...] > Basic 'scope usage was taught to all computer / electrical / robotics=20 > engineering students at my college ('85-87). As my father was against=20 > owning anything more complex than a 4-function calculator or color TV=20 > electronically, I never had the ability to learn to use one before colleg= > e. FWIW, a basic 'scope is a simpler than a colour TV (I've gone through the schematics of a colour TV using discrete components...) and a _lot_ simpler than a 4 function calculator. I've actually seen a schematic for a 'scope which used _one_ valve + the CRT + metal rectifiers. OK, it was a very basic instrument, Y input to the CRT plates through RC networks, the valve was the timebase. I'd not want to have to do much debugging with that as my only instrument, but it does prove that a 'scope is not that complicated. > > Oh, and for the record: I *didn't* graduate. ;-/ -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 22:45:45 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:45:45 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) In-Reply-To: <20050414184929.7f730e55.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <003001c53f08$8deaa2e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20050412204626.02a9cac2.chenmel@earthlink.net> <1113433367.20597.3.camel@fortran> <20050413201535.5a52ea06.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413225015.4518ce67.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200504140530.BAA06625@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20050414184929.7f730e55.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/14/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > I'm also prejudiced because a few years back I worked in a team on a > Intel 80296 based telemetry project that included an 8530 in the design. > I never had to touch that code, but one of the guys who did absolutely > despised the 8530. I took the liberty of handing him a copy of the > NetBSD code for the chip, which I think helped him understand it a > little better. I should look at that code sometime, mostly out of curiosity. . If I'm not wrong (from my cursory glance over the > datasheet) it's a very stateful part that the programmer has to be well > versed in the care and feeding of. My recollection of it with COMBOARDs is that the most important thing is not to feed the chip too fast from the bus side. The second most important thing is to understand what register you are accessing and calling it up properly. We were using the 4MHz parts with an 8MHz 68000. Our design was basic - a single PAL to handle address selection and R/W sorts of things, and a simple interrupt design. No DMA. We were only dealing with speeds up to 64kbps sync serial, so the lack of DMA didn't kill us. The 4MHz parts just about did. The code that thwacked on the serial chip took a while to refine to a simple set of elements that worked reliably. One trick I remember was that we *always* made sure to have some minimum number of cycles between picking and internal register, and accessing that register. The most ordinary technque was a fixed number of NOPs after writing to the initial register. I don't know anything about how the SPARCs or the Mac interfaced to the Z8530, but our design was particularly inexpensive, but it was fast enough to talk to the required interfaces. Even so, there _were_ tips and tricks we'd learned the hard way. As I said, I should have a look at the NetBSD code and compare tricks. It's still a nice chip, especially if one wants to talk sync or async from the same port. I _think_ there's an updated version with a multi-character internal buffer (Z85230?), but it's much less common than the original. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 22:50:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:50:30 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050413164515.0079ea40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <031801c53c7b$f845dfe0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <16986.31535.424000.427097@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20050412183346.5d396d92.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123326.H1060@localhost> <16989.30437.970860.986469@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3.0.6.32.20050413164515.0079ea40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 4/13/05, Joe R. wrote: > >>>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: > > Tom> The problem with all of these older Tek devices, as pretty much > > Tom> everyone who uses them for some time discovers, is that they > > Tom> soon enough die of electromechanical issues -- the switches get > > Tom> touchy, intermittent, then die -- and are essentially > > Tom> unrepairable. > > It's VERY common. In fact, it's pretty much the rule for old Tektronix > scopes IMO. Come over to Sanford, Florida and I'll show you several HUNDRED > Tektronix scopes and AT LEAST 95%+ of them have aging problems (bad caps, > brittle plastic, intermitant switches, etc. I recently pulled out a dozen > of so 465/466/475s and I didn't find a one that worked properly. In my > experience, sitting unused is death on a Tektronix scope. I have an old 465 that seems to have died from loneliness... it has a dead short somewhere in the PSU such that one of the internal fuses blows violently. I keep meaning to get around to fixing it (it's my newest scope (of 4)), but just never mange to do much more than prod at it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 14 22:54:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:54:49 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050414201203.04e356d8@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050413224651.00b80280@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050414195212.00b6d610@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050414201203.04e356d8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On 4/14/05, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Nowadays, I doubt you could find many students there that could *spell* > oscilloscope, let alone tell you what one does... :-( You are almost certainly correct, but I'll say this... they couldn't take my job from me. Basic knowledge of how to use an oscilloscope (i.e., how to hook it up and get a meaningful trace on it) is a requirement for my job, and they _do_ ask candidates if they "know how to use basic laboratory instrumentation such as VOMs and oscilloscopes". For the record, I didn't learn in school either; I learned at a job I started the summer before I entered college (on the same Tek 465 that now sits inert in my playroom ;-) -ethan From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Thu Apr 14 23:40:14 2005 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:40:14 -0700 Subject: Popular Electronics magazine on eBay Message-ID: <000501c54175$3d954920$0200a8c0@downstairs2> I have been collecting Popular Electronics and Radio Electronics for research on Southwest Technical Products for my web site. I used my library database to determine which issues I need and buy them on eBay. With shipping it cost $10 to $20 for a year of issues. In the last week I was looking for Popular Electronics issues September and October 1964 and a better cover for May 1965. An auction including these issues just when for $27 plus shipping. Another one is now going for $51 (Item 6955461806). I thinking what is going on, these prices are way out of line. It takes me a while to scan the pages I want and I still have a backlog to work through. I can wait. Then I realized that both auctions include the April 1965 issue of Popular Electronics. Hey folks, Intel is looking for the April 1965 "Electronics" not "Popular Electronics" "Intel Corp. has posted a $10,000 reward for an original copy, in mint condition, of the April 19, 1965, issue of Electronics, the technical publication in which Intel's founder, Gordon Moore, made his famous forecast.' Michael Holley http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/magazines.htm From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 14 23:53:40 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 21:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > Do you do appraisals that can be used by insurance companies? I probably > need to get my 30-something year old systems appraised in case I have a > catastrophe of some sort. I need to add a rider to my insurance policy to > cover these systems. What started out as a small well-defined project is > rapidly growing into a large collection and filling up my shop! Yes, I do. But unless it has substantial value it may not be worth it for a hobbyist to pay for a proper appraisal. On the other hand, it would be difficult if not impossible to insure your collection without a proper appraisal, and even then you will probably pay hefty premiums to the insurance company that may not make it worth insuring. At any rate, contact me privately and we'll see what we can do. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 00:04:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:04:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the 'Market' was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <45983.207.145.53.202.1113425159.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Vince wrote: > > I think it's like confusing Silicon Valley (or Portland, Oregon) with the > > world :-). Maybe if I lived and worked where you do, I would see hundreds > > of different venues doing a brisk business in this stuff. > > If only!!! > > In my experience it's easier to find interesting old stuff just about > anywhere *other* than in Silicon Valley. I find more in Colorado, which > I visit a few times a year, than I do in SV. > > But don't everybody rush to Colorado to grab all the good stuff before I > get there! Just to prove my point that you can find anything anywhere, I ducked into a used book store in Key West, Florida, when I was there the week before last and found some great old computer books, including Volumes 2 and 3 of The Handbook on Artificial Intelligence by Ed Feigenbaum (Volume 1 seems to be particualr scarce since I always seem to find copies of 2&3 together but hardly ever 1) and A History of Engineering & Science in the Bell System: Transmission Technology (1925-1975). Good stuff. I didn't find any old computers in the only Salvation Army there, but then I didn't really have time to check out the half dozen or so pawn shops that seem to litter that little island. I'm sure there was at least a Commodore 64 somewhere ;) On my last night in Florida in Miami Beach, I walked into a used bookstore around the corner from my hotel and found _Xanadu: The Computerized Home of Tomorrow and How It Can Be Yours Today_ by Roy Mason (a limited number of copies available online). A very cool book from the early 1980s that attempts to describe the home of the future (and gets it mainly wrong, but the pictures are cool). The thing is you can find anything anywhere if you just put the time and effort into looking. And I don't mean just once. The 4th dimension (time) comes into play as well. If you make the rounds enough times, something very cool will eventually show up. You also have to do intelligent research, for instance, hunting down all the old hams in your area as at least one of them is bound to have an Altair or some other seminal S-100 computer. People with visions of moving to the Silicon Valley and harvesting a bounty of vintage computers will be sorely disappointed if they ever get to act out this fantasy. This is one of the most picked over places in the world as we have a lot of collectors here. You can still find plenty of gems, but you just have to work harder at it, and you have to be doing it constantly. I've long since cut way back on my collecting simply because I just don't have the time I used to and I am always running out of space anyway. I'm much more interested in focusing on what I already have. So there's an opening for the newbies ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From technobug at comcast.net Fri Apr 15 00:15:40 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:15:40 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <200504150402.j3F42X5o062736@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504150402.j3F42X5o062736@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Ethan bemoaned: > I have an old 465 that seems to have died from loneliness... it has a > dead short somewhere in the PSU such that one of the internal fuses > blows violently. I keep meaning to get around to fixing it (it's my > newest scope (of 4)), but just never mange to do much more than prod > at it. > > -ethan If you wander over to and click on "Electronic Technical Manuals (ETMs) Online" (acceptance of the loss of your first-born is required) you will find a wealth of manuals for older test gear. The 465 service and calibration manuals are there in PDF (with hyperlinks!). CRC From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 00:19:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050413203209.06994dac.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > There's a need for someone to write a good solid history of 1980's BBS > culture. A lot of complicated socioligical (sp?) phenomena has never > really been well explored and recorded that I know of. I.e. : if you ASCII and you shall receive: BBS: The Documentary http://www.bbsdocumentary.com Highly recommended. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 00:30:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <200504142143.j3ELhxQX059369@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Wow, even though you said "no offense", that's still a heck of an > accusation. I wouldn't object if it was somehow grounded in evidence. I > was simply doubting Sellam's definition of "the market" by reminding us all > that we on classiccmp alone are hardly "the market" in question. I'm Well, there we go again, putting words in my mouth. I never, no where, ever, said that "we" are "The Market". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 00:35:59 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the 'Market' was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: <56085.207.145.53.202.1113515985.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > > you are mistaking greed that is pervasive these days in this > > society > > You say that like it's a bad thing. Greed is what makes free markets > work efficiently. When you're buing a product, it's in your best interest > for it to be the case that everyone else buying that product is trying > to maximize the value they receive per money spent. Similarly, when > you're a seller, it's in your best interest that all the other sellers > are trying to maximize their money received per product sold. You know, greed doesn't always have to be a factor in a sale. When I do sell something from my collection, it's actually rare that I'm doing it to maximize income. When I have gone for maximized profit in the past, it was for doing things like funding a VCF. I prefer to give someone a good deal to help foster a friendship. Sometimes I just send something to someone (and even pay shipping) just because. And other people have done the same with me. I think this is more what the hobby is about. Greed might be "good" and "right" but it's also not a requirement. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 15 00:43:25 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 01:43:25 -0400 Subject: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504150541.j3F5fqqW063709@dewey.classiccmp.org> Sorry. I agree with you that there's a long way between "eBay is not the market" and "we are". It's really a different thread, but, does anyone have thoughts on size (in population) of said undefined market? The bigger this market gets, the better off we all are, despite any temporary silliness with individuals and prices. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 1:30 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Appraisals, value, the "Market" was Re: And $500 gets you... On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Wow, even though you said "no offense", that's still a heck of an > accusation. I wouldn't object if it was somehow grounded in evidence. > I was simply doubting Sellam's definition of "the market" by reminding > us all that we on classiccmp alone are hardly "the market" in > question. I'm Well, there we go again, putting words in my mouth. I never, no where, ever, said that "we" are "The Market". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 00:59:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT but useful if you use PINE to filter CC mail into folders; if not, ignore and move along Message-ID: So for a couple years I'd been suffering from a rather tiresome problem. I used to have a separate e-mail address for receiving CC mail but it got annoying having to log in to a separate account to read it, plus people would send me e-mail at that address and I'd have to forward them to my primary address because I like to have all communications in one place. So I ditched that account and figured out how to use PINE to filter messages into their own folders. But then something funny started to happen, and I didn't associate it with this new configuration. Groups of messages from the CC mailing list would show up in my mailbox over and over (and over and over and sometimes over and over and over again). It was rather obnoxious. Messages I'd already read and deleted hours or days ago would suddenly re-appear as new again. I'd have to go through and delete all these messages to get to the actual new ones. Sometimes there'd be repeats, then new messages, then the same repeats plus the new messages repeated and then newer messages, etc. I dealt with it for a while. I blamed Jay. A couple times. Even though he denied it was a problem with the CC server, I had my suspicions :) I decided to leave Jay alone finally and focus on my server. I figured it was screwy. It's old and running low on HD space anyway. But I still didn't know why it was doing this and didn't have the foggiest idea where to begin looking. So recently I subscribed to several of the local FreeCycle mailing lists and set PINE filters to route those messages into their own folder. And I began to receive a flood of messages. And repeats. It was then that I finally realized that PINE was the culprit. I deleted the PINE filters for FreeCycle and instead added some rules to my .procmailrc. Sure enough, the duplicates stopped. I then deleted my filters for the CC list and added rules to .procmailrc for the CC list and the duplicates FINALLY stopped there as well. It's been a few days like this and I feel confident saying the problem is solved. I still don't know why this was happening, but the moral of the story is that PINE's filtering sucks and should not be used. If you're having a problem such as I describe, turn off PINE filters and use procmail instead. It might be the version I'm using, which is somewhat old (4.33) though I'm not sure if this has been fixed in later versions. I hope this helps someone else return to sanity. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 15 06:44:54 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:44:54 +0000 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-14 at 20:24 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > For those unfamiliar with the model, it was Rockwell's answer to the > KIM and SYM, and was frequently found in a metal-bottomed, > vacuformed-topped case, unlike the KIM and SYM which were frequently > found as bare boards. Interesting - I always thought they were typically bare boards too. Our AIM 65 is rather industrialised, in a thick metal-bottomed case (with carry handle) and a thick fibreglass top (bright blue, looks bloody awful IMHO :-) The red translucent display cover is cracked on ours, just in case anyone finds a replacement on an otherwise-dead machine. (There's some damage to the fibreglass too, but nothing that couldn't be fixed there) Ours does have an expansion board (ISTR posting about it on the list a few months back) with extra RAM as well as various interfaces. (It was used as a diagnostic terminal for Xerox, although I don't know the specific function it carried out) > The AIM-65 had BASIC as a rather common option > (don't remember if it was always present), and routinely came with a > full-sized ASCII keyboard Oh, yep, ours has a proper keyboard too. Can't recall whether it has BASIC fitted or not. cheers Jules From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 15 09:01:30 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 07:01:30 -0700 Subject: Appraisals, value, the 'Market' was Re: And $500 gets you... References: Message-ID: From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > Just to prove my point that you can find anything anywhere, I ducked into > a used book store in Key West, Florida, when I was there the week before > last and found some great old computer books, including Volumes 2 and 3 of > The Handbook on Artificial Intelligence by Ed Feigenbaum (Volume 1 seems > to be particualr scarce since I always seem to find copies of 2&3 together > but hardly ever 1) and A History of Engineering & Science in the > Bell System: Transmission Technology (1925-1975). Good stuff. [ more examples] > The thing is you can find anything anywhere if you just put the time and > effort into looking. And I don't mean just once. The 4th dimension > (time) comes into play as well. If you make the rounds enough times, > something very cool will eventually show up. You also have to do > intelligent research, for instance, hunting down all the old hams in your > area as at least one of them is bound to have an Altair or some other > seminal S-100 computer. Technically, you have shown evidence you can find *something* anywhere. And I believe that. However, I'm not convinced you can find *anything* anywhere, except in the "anything's possible" sense. Finding (for example) a Posibus peripheral backplane, in any of those venues seems improbable, to the point that I wouldn't even try. (Omnibus stuff is easier to find, but I think it would still be a waste of time.) Which is related to my point about different venues and different prices. There are places you can buy Posibus peripherals and parts. But they aren't cheap, and there aren't many). There are places like eBay where you have a fair chance to find them, they are cheaper, and places where your chances to find them are slimmer, and the prices are cheaper yet. Which makes economic sense to me. I can spend my time and money searching, or spend it at the higher priced venue. I was, in part, arguing that the premium for having it "already found" should be part of our view of "market price". (Same as we do for "already working".) Vince From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 15 09:15:01 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:15:01 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:45:45 EDT." Message-ID: <200504151415.j3FEF1vO006158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: ... >> despised the 8530. I took the liberty of handing him a copy of the >> NetBSD code for the chip, which I think helped him understand it a >> little better. heh. hope my name isn't anywhere in that :-) don't know a thing about it. nope. never heard of that localtalk thing. :-) in the early days of macbsd there was problem emptying the 8530's fifo (only 3 bytes) which was solved by using a simple version of soft irq's (which have other names in other os's but the concept is the same). pretty veratile chip. not bad once you got used to it. difficult to use w/dma hardware, however. -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 15 09:26:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:26:26 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) Message-ID: <0IEZ00G2ZS3P3VI0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) > From: Brad Parker > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:15:01 -0400 >pretty veratile chip. not bad once you got used to it. difficult to >use w/dma hardware, however. I find that odd as the 8530 had on board DMA. I have a tube of them in the PLCC package and fine them not only fast but fairly similar to the Z80 SIO. Now thats not to say the Z80sio wasn't pita to program either. The only other beast out there like the SIO was the NEC MPSC or 7201 (SS as I8274), that was a sio for 808x busses and also a pain to program for. Allison From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 15 10:00:50 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:00:50 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? Message-ID: <200504151000.50315.pat@computer-refuge.org> The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it appears to be a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. Link to auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 Ideas, anyone? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 15 10:11:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:11:55 -0500 Subject: Osborne 1 Message-ID: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> Would anyone like a free Osborne? I don't want it, so I'll pass the offer onto you... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 15 10:21:14 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:21:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: References: <200504150402.j3F42X5o062736@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, CRC wrote: > If you wander over to and click on > "Electronic Technical Manuals (ETMs) Online" (acceptance of the loss of your > first-born is required) you will find a wealth of manuals for older test > gear. The 465 service and calibration manuals are there in PDF (with > hyperlinks!). The bit about authorized Defense Department use was enough to scare me off. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 10:20:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:20:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Appraisals, value, the 'Market' was Re: And $500 gets you... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > Technically, you have shown evidence you can find *something* anywhere. > And I believe that. However, I'm not convinced you can find *anything* > anywhere, except in the "anything's possible" sense. That might be a more accurate way of describing it, sure. But I've seen some pretty amazing things come out of the most unexpected places. > Which is related to my point about different venues and different prices. > There are places you can buy Posibus peripherals and parts. But they aren't > cheap, and there aren't many). There are places like eBay where you have a > fair chance to find them, they are cheaper, and places where your chances to > find them are slimmer, and the prices are cheaper yet. > > Which makes economic sense to me. I can spend my time and money searching, > or spend it at the higher priced venue. I was, in part, arguing that the > premium for having it "already found" should be part of our view of "market > price". (Same as we do for "already working".) Sure, and you can add the cost of shipping to the purchase price to come up with the total cost since the shipping price is the trade-off for the searching. Depending on how you value your time, the shipping costs will usually be cheaper, but as I've always said, the journey is the reward. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 10:21:45 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <200504151000.50315.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it appears to be > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > Link to auction: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > Ideas, anyone? Looks like a System/3x? Don't pass up this "RARE FIND", folks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 15 10:27:16 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:27:16 -0400 Subject: Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> References: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <425FDD54.2040301@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Would anyone like a free Osborne? I don't want it, so I'll pass the > offer onto you... Where are you? My lawyer started out on an Osborne, and tells me often that he wishes he still had it. Doc From gordon at gjcp.net Fri Apr 15 10:28:06 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:28:06 +0100 Subject: Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> References: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <425FDD86.8010508@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Would anyone like a free Osborne? I don't want it, so I'll pass the > offer onto you... Where is it? Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 15 10:54:01 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:54:01 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504151054.02132.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 15 April 2005 10:21, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it appears > > to be a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > > > Link to auction: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > > > Ideas, anyone? > > Looks like a System/3x? > > Don't pass up this "RARE FIND", folks! Indeed, it appears to be a System/34. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 15 10:59:18 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:59:18 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question References: <200504150402.j3F42X5o062736@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16991.58582.245506.7107@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike Loewen writes: Mike> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, CRC wrote: >> If you wander over to and >> click on "Electronic Technical Manuals (ETMs) Online" (acceptance >> of the loss of your first-born is required) you will find a wealth >> of manuals for older test gear. The 465 service and calibration >> manuals are there in PDF (with hyperlinks!). Mike> The bit about authorized Defense Department use was enough to Mike> scare me off. Just read the description of what they mean by that. Large quantities of DoD materials are available to the public, so you're authorized to use it. paul From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 15 11:09:53 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:09:53 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:26:26 EDT." <0IEZ00G2ZS3P3VI0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200504151609.j3FG9r3v012621@mwave.heeltoe.com> Allison wrote: > >I find that odd as the 8530 had on board DMA. last time I checked the Zilog 8530 didn't have any dma. it's not capable of being a bus master but itself. perhaps we're talking about different things? -brad From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Apr 15 11:20:59 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:20:59 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? References: <200504151000.50315.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00c001c541d7$1e45eb80$14406b43@66067007> Looks like a System/34. I would love to get the software from if he has any. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:00 AM Subject: Identify this IBM box? > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it appears to be > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > Link to auction: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > Ideas, anyone? > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Apr 15 11:33:25 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:33:25 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? References: <200504151000.50315.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00f301c541d8$da3eb050$14406b43@66067007> Follow-up he has both a system/34 and a system/36 for sale. Boy wish I was closer to him to bid on all the items. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:00 AM Subject: Identify this IBM box? > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it appears to be > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > Link to auction: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > Ideas, anyone? > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 15 11:41:39 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:41:39 -0500 Subject: Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> References: <425FD9BB.5000904@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <425FEEC3.5060806@oldskool.org> Crap, what happened to my attachment? Grumble... Okay, here is the original message, please direct all inquiries to him: From: "Richard" Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 18:34:09 -0500 To: Hello, i came acrossed your site, and wondered if you might know anyone who would be interested in an old Osborne one pc as shown on this site. http://oldcomputers.net/osborne.html I hate to part with it but really have no use for it, its very dusty and still comes on. I have no software for it and wouldnt know how to use this old thing anyway. Its a part of history and i would hate to see it go to a landfill i would rather sell it to someone who is still into this old stuff Jim Leonard wrote: > Would anyone like a free Osborne? I don't want it, so I'll pass the > offer onto you... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 15 11:44:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:44:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <200504151644.JAA02808@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >> The AIM-65 had BASIC as a rather common option >> (don't remember if it was always present), and routinely came with a >> full-sized ASCII keyboard > >Oh, yep, ours has a proper keyboard too. Can't recall whether it has >BASIC fitted or not. > >cheers > >Jules > > Hi They also had ROMs for Forth, that I find more useful than BASIC. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 15 11:44:58 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:44:58 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) Message-ID: <0IEZ00IA1YIKI4D0@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) > From: Brad Parker >last time I checked the Zilog 8530 didn't have any dma. it's not >capable of being a bus master but itself. > >perhaps we're talking about different things? Yep I munged it with another. The parts I have are the 85C30 and that part is also different from the base 8030. It has a few improvements. It was pretty easy to mix it all up as I was using it in a Z280 enviroment. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 15 11:50:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:50:49 -0600 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <00f301c541d8$da3eb050$14406b43@66067007> References: <200504151000.50315.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f301c541d8$da3eb050$14406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <425FF0E9.70809@jetnet.ab.ca> Keys wrote: > Follow-up he has both a system/34 and a system/36 for sale. Boy wish > I was closer to him to bid on all the items. Well bid a $1.00 and keep the railroads in business with the shipping $$$'s. The real problem of course is not the shipping $$$'s but the fact that nobody can pack and ship products and none of this cardboard box stuff ... I want real wood if I pay over $1,000 . Now 25% to 30% seems reasonable for shipping. Ben alias woodelf From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Apr 15 11:10:46 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:10:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it appears to be > > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > > > Link to auction: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > > > Ideas, anyone? > > Looks like a System/3x? > > Don't pass up this "RARE FIND", folks! I'm unaware if many IBMs around that era shared chassis, but that is an identical configuration to my System/34, from the 8" jukebox to the programmers panel. Two of these just came up free for pickup in Canada (Post here to ccmp only a couple days ago). (I'm not sure about its $30k tag, the woman I picked my /34 from said she paid $155k for hers in 1980) JP From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 15 12:05:20 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:05:20 -0500 Subject: ASCII art spam In-Reply-To: <20050413203209.06994dac.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <425C3550.1020302@jetnet.ab.ca> <6.1.0.6.0.20050412231705.03f1f038@mail.zeelandnet.nl> <20050412185706.34b1a0c7.chenmel@earthlink.net> <20050413123748.H1060@localhost> <20050413203209.06994dac.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <425FF450.9010405@oldskool.org> Scott Stevens wrote: > There's a need for someone to write a good solid history of 1980's BBS > culture. A lot of complicated socioligical (sp?) phenomena has never > really been well explored and recorded that I know of. I.e. : if you > let your message base be taken over by 'the dude who types in all caps' > people quit responding. Then there are no new messages for people to > see and respond to. After they call two times and there are no new > messages, they never call again. Boards could die OVERNIGHT that way, > and often did. Jason Scott's BBS Documentary touches on that a little. Not a lot, but it is definitely covered throughout the interviews. The segment you'll want to watch when he publishes it next month is "SYSOPS and USERS". -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 15 12:09:29 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <0IEZ00G2ZS3P3VI0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IEZ00G2ZS3P3VI0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <32921.64.169.63.74.1113584969.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Allison wrote: > The only other beast out there like the SIO was the > NEC MPSC or 7201 (SS as I8274), that was a sio for 808x busses and > also a pain to program for. That chip sucked when used as a plain old UART. In order to handle slight speed mismatches between two modems emplying synchronous modulation, without requiring the modems to have flow control to the hosts, there's an ITU-T (formerly CCITT) spec that allows stop bit shaving. Characters output by the modem to the host is allowed to have a slightly short stop bit (15/16 of a full bit time). This would happen if one modem had a slightly higher speed crystal than the other; that modem could send bytes every so slightly faster than the receiving end could put them out its serial line. This was common with 1200 bps through 9600 bps modems before MNP and V.42 error control were used; when error control is used there is flow control between modems, and flow control required between hosts and modems, so stop bit shaving is not needed. Some other non-modem devices generate fractional (shaved) stop bits as well, for similar reasons. Normal UARTs, SCCs, etc. handle fractional stop bits just fine, because they only sample the stop bit near its midpoint, and are reading for another start bit soon after. The uPD7201, on the other hand, will reject the shaved character and/or the following character with a framing error. There's another related modem feature used by modems with synchronous modulation and no error control. When the host serial port sends data to the modem slightly faster than the modem's synchronous modulation (again, due to crystal variations), the modem drops up to one in ten stop bits entirely when running them through the modulator. (On the synchronous modulation, it's not possible to send a fractional stop bit). The receiving modem knows to deal with this. This condition tends to require the use of stop bit shaving on the serial port, since host computers will not accept characters with entirely missing stop bits. The stop bit deletion on the modulation is part of the ITU-T V.14 standard, and is allowed on no more than one character in ten, so it allows the modem to deal with up to 1% overspeed. The recieving modem may or may not have to employ fractional stop bits on its host interface to compensate. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 15 12:13:26 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) In-Reply-To: <200504151609.j3FG9r3v012621@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:26:26 EDT." <0IEZ00G2ZS3P3VI0@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200504151609.j3FG9r3v012621@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <32970.64.169.63.74.1113585206.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Allison wrote: > I find that odd as the 8530 had on board DMA. Brad wrote: > last time I checked the Zilog 8530 didn't have any dma. it's not > capable of being a bus master but itself. I think Allison meant that the 8530 had the DRQ/DACK signals needed to make it easily work with a DMA controller. Most simpler UART chips didn't have those. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 15 12:13:00 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:13:00 -0600 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <200504151644.JAA02808@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504151644.JAA02808@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <425FF61C.7040908@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > They also had ROMs for Forth, that I find more useful than >BASIC. > > Well if Forth had floating point math is could see it competing with BASIC. Other than GAMES I found very little other calculator style programs could be written in BASIC. In hindsight word processing and acounting and games that really made the mass market for computers. Ben alias woodelf PS. while on the topic of 6502's , does anybody know where I can get a pdf online data sheet 68B50 ? Datasheets for the 8 bit stuff is getting harder to find all the time for the original products. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 12:24:18 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:24:18 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <16991.58582.245506.7107@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200504150402.j3F42X5o062736@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415132418.00b78c20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:59 AM 4/15/05 -0400, Paul wrote: >>>>>> "Mike" == Mike Loewen writes: > > Mike> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005, CRC wrote: > >> If you wander over to and > >> click on "Electronic Technical Manuals (ETMs) Online" (acceptance > >> of the loss of your first-born is required) you will find a wealth > >> of manuals for older test gear. The 465 service and calibration > >> manuals are there in PDF (with hyperlinks!). > > Mike> The bit about authorized Defense Department use was enough to > Mike> scare me off. > >Just read the description of what they mean by that. Large quantities >of DoD materials are available to the public, so you're authorized to >use it. My understanding is that if the government pays for them then they become public property. Accordingly you USED to be able to buy just about any non-secret military manual from the Government Printing office in Boulder, Colorado. I expect these fall into the same catagory. My father ordered tons of radio manuals from the GPO when I was a kid. The hard part was that you had to have the exact name and publication number. I don't know if you still order them from the GPO or not. Joe From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Fri Apr 15 12:31:21 2005 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:31:21 -0500 Subject: OT: Prank paper accepted for computer comference Message-ID: This is OT, but computer related. A computer-generated nonsense paper was accepted for presentation at the World Multiconference on Systemics, Cybernetics and Informatics (WMSCI). The story is at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4449651.stm and the paper can be read at: http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/scigen/rooter.pdf Bob From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 15 12:48:13 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:48:13 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <16991.58582.245506.7107@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <002101c541e3$4d9d4020$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Paul Koning wrote: > Just read the description of what they mean by that. Large > quantities of DoD materials are available to the public, so > you're authorized to use it. I think I tried this site the last time it cropped iup. It would not let me in then either. I'm in the UK. Does that make a difference? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 12:59:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:59:44 -0400 Subject: OS Challenger video? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it only designed to drive an RF modulator? Joe From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 15 13:11:24 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:11:24 -0400 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > > > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it > appears to be > > > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > > > > > Link to auction: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > > > > > Ideas, anyone? > > > > Looks like a System/3x? > > > > Don't pass up this "RARE FIND", folks! > > I'm unaware if many IBMs around that era shared chassis, but that is an > identical configuration to my System/34, from the 8" jukebox to the > programmers panel. > > Two of these just came up free for pickup in Canada (Post here to > ccmp only a couple days ago). > > (I'm not sure about its $30k tag, the woman I picked my /34 from said she > paid $155k for hers in 1980) > > JP This stuff is about an hour from my house. I could get it and possibly store it for someone. I have a shop that has some room left in it. Anyone out there on the list interested in this stuff if I get it? I'm in Leesville, South Carolina, about 50 miles north of Orangeburg, where the stuff is located. I can't remember... how heavy is that S/34? I remember that it was about 4+ feet tall and maybe 6 or 8 feet deep. I can remember one night when I was playing substitute system operator, and I was printing the "billing register" at about 3:00am. Every 30 or 60 minutes, I'd have to reload the big line printer with the special paper. I got sleepy after reloading the printer and I curled up behind the S/34 and went to sleep. BTW, my first real job after college was programming in RPG on an IBM System/34 from 1981 to 1983 or so. Then I moved on the the mainframe and COBOL and Command Level CICS. Let me know if anyone's interested in making a road trip to S. Carolina to get this stuff if I bid on it and pick it up. Ashley From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 15 13:14:25 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:14:25 -0400 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > > > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it > > appears to be > > > > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. > > > > > > > > Link to auction: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 > > > > > > > > Ideas, anyone? > > > > > > Looks like a System/3x? > > > > > > Don't pass up this "RARE FIND", folks! > > > > I'm unaware if many IBMs around that era shared chassis, but that is an > > identical configuration to my System/34, from the 8" jukebox to the > > programmers panel. > > > > Two of these just came up free for pickup in Canada (Post here to > > ccmp only a couple days ago). > > > > (I'm not sure about its $30k tag, the woman I picked my /34 > from said she > > paid $155k for hers in 1980) > > > > JP > > > This stuff is about an hour from my house. I could > get it and possibly store it for someone. I have a > shop that has some room left in it. Anyone out there > on the list interested in this stuff if I get it? > I'm in Leesville, South Carolina, about 50 miles > north of Orangeburg, where the stuff is located. I > can't remember... how heavy is that S/34? I remember > that it was about 4+ feet tall and maybe 6 or 8 feet > deep. I can remember one night when I was playing > substitute system operator, and I was printing the > "billing register" at about 3:00am. Every 30 or 60 > minutes, I'd have to reload the big line printer > with the special paper. I got sleepy after reloading > the printer and I curled up behind the S/34 and went > to sleep. > > BTW, my first real job after college was programming > in RPG on an IBM System/34 from 1981 to 1983 or so. > Then I moved on the the mainframe and COBOL and > Command Level CICS. > > Let me know if anyone's interested in making a road > trip to S. Carolina to get this stuff if I bid on > it and pick it up. > > Ashley Hmm, looks like they also have the printer that I loaded before I went to sleep.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5185235633 &rd=1 Ashley From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 15 13:17:56 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <200504151817.LAA02864@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "woodelf" > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> They also had ROMs for Forth, that I find more useful than >>BASIC. >> >> >Well if Forth had floating point math is could see it competing with BASIC. >Other than GAMES I found very little other calculator style programs could >be written in BASIC. In hindsight word processing and acounting and games >that really made the mass market for computers. Hi It should be noted that the first version of Word Star ( I think that is the one ) was written in Forth. I'm not saying the fellow that did it was using Forth correctly, just that he was able to get it working in a time frame that would have been unrealistic using BASIC or assembly( by his words ). Floating point has been a common extension to Forth for a number of years. It is just that most uP implementations were done from FIG source listing that didn't have floating point. The lack of floating point has surely caused many to avoid Forth. It is a shame that most all applications that the person believes that floating point is needed can often be better implemented in integer of fixed point. It is a shame that most uP's don't properly support fixed point multiplies and divides. Dwight >Ben alias woodelf >PS. while on the topic of 6502's , does anybody know where I can get >a pdf online data sheet 68B50 ? Datasheets for the 8 bit stuff is getting >harder to find all the time for the original products. All 6800 stuff is getting hard to find. Recently I was writing a disassembler for the 6800 to look at code on a pinball machine. I had to dig real deep into my pile of books before finding something with the code described in it. Dwight From wacarder at usit.net Fri Apr 15 13:16:15 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:16:15 -0400 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hmm, looks like they also have the printer that I > loaded before I went to sleep.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item= 5185235633&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5185235633 &rd=1 And the terminal! - Ashley From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Apr 15 13:19:47 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:19:47 -0400 Subject: OS Challenger video? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <426005C3.6000807@atarimuseum.com> If its pushing RF out, there's gotta be a composite source on the board feeding into the RF modulator. Curt Joe R. wrote: > Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it >only designed to drive an RF modulator? > > Joe > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.11 - Release Date: 4/14/2005 From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 15 13:30:26 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:30:26 -0500 Subject: OS Challenger video? References: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000a01c541e9$35abe3d0$233cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Joe R." Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:59 PM > Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it > only designed to drive an RF modulator? > > Joe Composite video out, it requires an external RF adapter to hook up to TV. Randy From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 15 13:44:21 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:44:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <200504151844.LAA02942@clulw009.amd.com> Anyway, back to the original subject. There is no magic bullet to bring these older machines back to life. Some of the things that can help are, not in any particular order: 1. Volt meter 2. Logic Probe 3. Set of schematics 4. Oscilloscope 5. Soldering iron w/ solder 6. Parts to swap 7. assembler/disassembler 8. EPROM programmer 9. Source listing 10. Needle nose pliers 11. solder sucker and/or solder wick Also, one needs clear logical thinking ( not all that common in the world today ). The debugging procedure is in specific order: 1. gather symptoms and observations. 2. Form hypothesis of possible cause. 3. Test to see if hypothesis is correct. 4. If problem not found, include results into observations of step one and repeat. Dwight From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 15 13:51:11 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:51:11 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <20050415185110.EZGK3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >PS. while on the topic of 6502's , does anybody know where I can get >a pdf online data sheet 68B50 ? Datasheets for the 8 bit stuff is getting >harder to find all the time for the original products. It's on my website: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Go to the "Dunfield 6809 Portable" section under "Homebuilts", and then on to "Documentation" and "Reference material" - I have a scanned 68[AB]50 datasheet there. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Apr 15 13:53:23 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:53:23 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? References: Message-ID: <015f01c541ec$681f0d80$14406b43@66067007> I would love to get all the items he has up for bid, each starts out at $1 and no takers so far. I sent him a email about shipping the KB he has but no answer back yet. I also asked if he would donate the stuff for a tax write-off if no one bid on it. He three large printers, terminals, and two CPUs. Let's talk offline. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: RE: Identify this IBM box? >> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> > >> > > The seller (obviously) doesn't know much about it, but it >> appears to be >> > > a fairly large deskside IBM machine from around 1980. >> > > >> > > Link to auction: >> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5185251356 >> > > >> > > Ideas, anyone? >> > >> > Looks like a System/3x? >> > >> > Don't pass up this "RARE FIND", folks! >> >> I'm unaware if many IBMs around that era shared chassis, but that is an >> identical configuration to my System/34, from the 8" jukebox to the >> programmers panel. >> >> Two of these just came up free for pickup in Canada (Post here to >> ccmp only a couple days ago). >> >> (I'm not sure about its $30k tag, the woman I picked my /34 from said she >> paid $155k for hers in 1980) >> >> JP > > > This stuff is about an hour from my house. I could > get it and possibly store it for someone. I have a > shop that has some room left in it. Anyone out there > on the list interested in this stuff if I get it? > I'm in Leesville, South Carolina, about 50 miles > north of Orangeburg, where the stuff is located. I > can't remember... how heavy is that S/34? I remember > that it was about 4+ feet tall and maybe 6 or 8 feet > deep. I can remember one night when I was playing > substitute system operator, and I was printing the > "billing register" at about 3:00am. Every 30 or 60 > minutes, I'd have to reload the big line printer > with the special paper. I got sleepy after reloading > the printer and I curled up behind the S/34 and went > to sleep. > > BTW, my first real job after college was programming > in RPG on an IBM System/34 from 1981 to 1983 or so. > Then I moved on the the mainframe and COBOL and > Command Level CICS. > > Let me know if anyone's interested in making a road > trip to S. Carolina to get this stuff if I bid on > it and pick it up. > > Ashley > > From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Apr 15 13:28:36 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:28:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > north of Orangeburg, where the stuff is located. I > can't remember... how heavy is that S/34? I remember > that it was about 4+ feet tall and maybe 6 or 8 feet > deep. I can remember one night when I was playing Having moved one from Arkansas to Iowa, I can tell you that it isn't a task to be taken on lightly. Particularly without a lift-deck. I'm guessing the unit weighs around 900lbs, is approximately 7' long, 3' deep and 4' high. The machine is on good quality casters, so it'll roll like a dream, but it's extreme weight makes it a royal pain in the butt to move. If you'd like a chuckle, you can view my attempts to move it using a Ford F150, a winch and a pair of lawnmower ramps: http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ JP From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 15 14:14:51 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 12:14:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identify this IBM box? Message-ID: <200504151914.MAA02976@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "JP Hindin" > > >On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: >> north of Orangeburg, where the stuff is located. I >> can't remember... how heavy is that S/34? I remember >> that it was about 4+ feet tall and maybe 6 or 8 feet >> deep. I can remember one night when I was playing > >Having moved one from Arkansas to Iowa, I can tell you that it isn't a >task to be taken on lightly. Particularly without a lift-deck. > >I'm guessing the unit weighs around 900lbs, is approximately 7' long, 3' >deep and 4' high. >The machine is on good quality casters, so it'll roll like a dream, but >it's extreme weight makes it a royal pain in the butt to move. > >If you'd like a chuckle, you can view my attempts to move it using a Ford >F150, a winch and a pair of lawnmower ramps: > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ > >JP Hi Of course, there is always the option of renting a forklift. Most any rental place has them. Dwight From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 15 14:18:11 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 20:18:11 +0100 Subject: K&N Electronics LSL20 Message-ID: <008701c541ef$df505460$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, has anyone got any details on the above device? It is a 20mA loop to V24 interface box, labelled s a "Digital converter line driver". I thought I'd ask before I trace the circuit. Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 15 14:52:09 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:52:09 -0500 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? References: <20050415185110.EZGK3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <000d01c541f4$9f9c8d70$f33dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Dave Dunfield" Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 1:51 PM > >PS. while on the topic of 6502's , does anybody know where I can get >>a pdf online data sheet 68B50 ? Datasheets for the 8 bit stuff is getting >>harder to find all the time for the original products. > > It's on my website: > > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > Go to the "Dunfield 6809 Portable" section under "Homebuilts", and > then on to "Documentation" and "Reference material" - I have a > scanned 68[AB]50 datasheet there. > > Regards, > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html I've started a webpage on bringing up S100 computers but haven't added much to help here yet. With a totally dead computer start at the beginning: 1) Check the +5v, if you have a scope check for ripple. 2) Look carefully at everything on the PC board, physical evidence of badcomponents: resistors & caps turn brown to black. Plastic IC's turn gray to white. Many components are cracked 3) Check for cold solder joints. 4) Buy a good logic probe, ebay sells them for under $25. 5) If you use a DMM to check logic level remember: If you measure from ground >3v is high, <3v is not low. To measure low measure from +5. If all you measure from is ground you won't know if it is open. Logic can be high, low, or open. An open line may mean the chip driving the line is bad. 6) Start by checking the MPU address lines to see if the addresses are changing, if not it probably is a bad clock or bad 6502. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 13:49:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:49:02 -0400 Subject: OS Challenger video? In-Reply-To: <000a01c541e9$35abe3d0$233cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415144902.00b4f9a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:30 PM 4/15/05 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Joe R." >Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:59 PM >> Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it >> only designed to drive an RF modulator? >> >> Joe > >Composite video out, it requires an external RF adapter to hook up to TV. I know that. But I hooked it to a composite monitor (NOT a TV and no modulator) and only got garbage (no sync) and I wanted to know if the Challenger generated composite video or something else. Joe > > >Randy > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 15:00:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:00:59 -0400 Subject: FA: SGI drives & sleds, VME bus analyzer, TRS-80 OS-9 & BASIC09 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415160059.00b4d460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Cleaning out more stuff that I don't need. . From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 15 15:22:08 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:22:08 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope question In-Reply-To: <200504151733.j3FHX0Ov068645@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504152022.j3FKM3HI028196@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> My current scope ... for the past 25 years ... is a Heathkit IO-4235, the last scope that Heathkit really designed themselves and offered in kit form (there were some later scopes, made by other firms and private labeled). The 4235 is dual trace, delayed sweep, 35MHz. It's in new condition, but it has sat in storage, in a box, for years at a time, at least 3 times. And on two occasions I've really had to tear into it to make some major repairs (shorted tantalum caps blow the power supply .... and they blow it violently, with smoke, fire and loud acoustics), but it's in new condition right now. About 4 months ago, the pilot light (an incandescent 24 volt bulb) blew out. While I was in there to replace the light bulb, I noticed a 3500 uF 35 volt capacitor in the power supply totally blown apart. Mind you, the scope was working, and I am quite sure that the capacitor had been that way for years. The trace does seem "smoother" since I replaced that. If anyone is looking for a good scope on E-Bay, the Heathkit IO-4510 was a very good basic, triggered sweep dual trace scope (although only 15MHz), and can be found cheaply on E-Bay (it will probably cost you more to ship than you will pay for it). It's actual construction is in some ways better than that of the 4235. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Apr 15 14:31:40 2005 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 14:31:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <200504151914.MAA02976@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >I'm guessing the unit weighs around 900lbs, is approximately 7' long, 3' > >deep and 4' high. > >The machine is on good quality casters, so it'll roll like a dream, but > >it's extreme weight makes it a royal pain in the butt to move. > > > >If you'd like a chuckle, you can view my attempts to move it using a Ford > >F150, a winch and a pair of lawnmower ramps: > > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ > > > Of course, there is always the option of > renting a forklift. Most any rental place > has them. Indeed, unfortunately at the time of pickup it was not possible to borrow a forklift from any location I could find - I even started calling businesses and warehouses for private forklifts. I had also considered a liftgate truck, just to use it's liftgate - but none of those could be found either. This was, at the time (given the window of opportunity to retrieve the machine) the only reasonable (or unreasonable) option that I could come up with. JP From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 15 15:30:50 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:30:50 -0500 Subject: OS Challenger video? References: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050415144902.00b4f9a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001401c541fa$07f0faf0$443dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Joe R." Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 1:49 PM > At 01:30 PM 4/15/05 -0500, you wrote: >>From: "Joe R." >>Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 12:59 PM >>> Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it >>> only designed to drive an RF modulator? >>> >>> Joe >> >>Composite video out, it requires an external RF adapter to hook up to TV. > > I know that. But I hooked it to a composite monitor (NOT a TV and no > modulator) and only got garbage (no sync) and I wanted to know if the > Challenger generated composite video or something else. > > Joe >> >> >>Randy It should be straight composite video. You might check with the webmaster of (and check the links): http://www.osiweb.org/osiweb/ OSI's used straight discreet logic for video, there are to programmable timing registers. With power applied you should get valid video signals even if the rest of the computer is dead. This makes debugging easier, you only need to look in the video section, with newer computers the CPU has to start the video meaning you have to get more working just to know whats wrong. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Apr 15 15:43:15 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:43:15 -0700 Subject: FA: SGI drives & sleds, VME bus analyzer, TRS-80 OS-9 & BASIC09 In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050415160059.00b4d460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050415160059.00b4d460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504151343.15332.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Hey Joe, On Friday 15 April 2005 13:00, Joe R. wrote: > Cleaning out more stuff that I don't need. > . You said in your eBay adv. that you found info on the Vmetro VBT-321/F VME Bus Analyzer card - I tried Googling and did not find anything. Do you have a URL for info on this card? Thanks, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 15:48:36 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 16:48:36 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <200504151844.LAA02942@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504151844.LAA02942@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/05, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Anyway, back to the original subject. > There is no magic bullet to bring these older machines > back to life. Some of the things that can help > are, not in any particular order: > > 5. Soldering iron w/ solder > 11. solder sucker and/or solder wick To go with these - machined-pin sockets, not cheap sockets. I've had problems with, specifically, the 40 and 24 pin sockets in PET motherboards failing. Remove socket, replace with machined-pin, replace original chip in socket, voila... working PET. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 16:51:31 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:51:31 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 4/15/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting - I always thought they were typically bare boards too. Our > AIM 65 is rather industrialised, in a thick metal-bottomed case (with > carry handle) and a thick fibreglass top (bright blue, looks bloody > awful IMHO :-) I'm sure Rockwell sold them as bare boards, but between the keyboard and the printer (standard equipment), I've only seen them on metal frames, with or without plastic lids. > The red translucent display cover is cracked on ours, just in case > anyone finds a replacement on an otherwise-dead machine. (There's some > damage to the fibreglass too, but nothing that couldn't be fixed there) Heh... I have three, one complete, one nearly complete (got a NoS printer off of eBay a while back) and one bare-board only, no keyboard, no printer and no display. I have either 3 or 4 of the right LED displays (out of 10 needed for the two incomplete boards), but no board to plug the LEDs into. I've frequently contemplated making my own board with point-by-point wiring, but just haven't ever gotten around to starting (the board is simple - two header strips for the LED modules, a 40 pin socket for a 6520/6821, and a row of holes for .1" non-stranded-wire ribbon-cable that plugs into the motherboard). Needless to say, with all the other missing bits, I am short the same red plexi that you are after, but quantity 2. > Ours does have an expansion board (ISTR posting about it on the list a > few months back) with extra RAM as well as various interfaces. (It was > used as a diagnostic terminal for Xerox, although I don't know the > specific function it carried out) I remember something about you mentioning it. I have external ROM boards with a claims adjuster app on them, and a couple of EPROMs mixed in with the normal masked-programmed ROMs on the mainboard, attached via a hand-made cable to the expansion connector. -ethan From Tim at rikers.org Fri Apr 15 17:06:50 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 17:06:50 -0500 Subject: new HP-2100 collector Message-ID: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> Seems I just took the plunge. I found a stash of hardware here and saved it from the great bit bucket in the sky. Inventory: * HP-2116A - broken chassis, missing glass panel * HP-2100A - missing cover * HP 21MX 2112A * HP 21MX 2108A * HP 12979A I/O extender * HP 2761A optical mark reader (melted rubber wheel) * HP 2748B tape reader * hp unknown mag tape drive * 7901A disc drive that's been dropped * 2 * HP-7900A disc drives * 2 * 13215A disc power supply * Commercial Controls Corporation tape punch * unknown data logger and other misc cruft. I've not tried turning any of it on yet. Many thanx to Jay West who identified much of this stuff over the net and walked me trough tieing the heads on the drives for the move. The HP-2116A was literally on the curb on it's way to the scrap heap. Parts had been scavenged, etc. I think I got all the pieces that there were to get. No power cord, etc. what kind of power does a 2116 need? If you've read this far and can stop drooling on your keyboard, I put pictures up. Some of the pictures are other stuff that was there, that the would not let me grab. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware Does anyone know what the "Sandia Laboratories" desk + racks is for? There is only one thing left in the rack and it's in real bad shape. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_092748 http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_092802 http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_104726 -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 17:20:27 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:20:27 -0400 Subject: IBM Nixie tube voltmeter? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050401101415.0bbdd008@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20050401102001.00ad9ca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415182027.0096fc00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:15 AM 4/1/05 -0600, you wrote: >At 10:20 AM 4/1/2005 -0500, you wrote: >>Last week I found a box marked "IBM" "01480" "DC Volts" that has three >>Nixie tubes in it. I tested it and sure enough it's DC voltmeter. It's >>pinout of the rear connector and some other data. Anybody know what this is >>out of or anything else about it? > >I know I'm drooling just hearing about it. Cool stuff. Where did you say >you had copious pictures posted? By popular demand: Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 17:29:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:29:50 -0400 Subject: new HP-2100 collector In-Reply-To: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415182950.00b61380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> You lucky SOB! Where did you say that you were storing this? :-) Do you have access to any other goodies there? I spotted some other nice toys in the pile. Joe At 05:06 PM 4/15/05 -0500, you wrote: >Seems I just took the plunge. I found a stash of hardware here and saved >it from the great bit bucket in the sky. > >Inventory: > >* HP-2116A - broken chassis, missing glass panel >* HP-2100A - missing cover >* HP 21MX 2112A >* HP 21MX 2108A >* HP 12979A I/O extender >* HP 2761A optical mark reader (melted rubber wheel) >* HP 2748B tape reader >* hp unknown mag tape drive >* 7901A disc drive that's been dropped >* 2 * HP-7900A disc drives >* 2 * 13215A disc power supply >* Commercial Controls Corporation tape punch >* unknown data logger > >and other misc cruft. I've not tried turning any of it on yet. > >Many thanx to Jay West who identified much of this stuff over the net >and walked me trough tieing the heads on the drives for the move. > >The HP-2116A was literally on the curb on it's way to the scrap heap. >Parts had been scavenged, etc. I think I got all the pieces that there >were to get. No power cord, etc. what kind of power does a 2116 need? > >If you've read this far and can stop drooling on your keyboard, I put >pictures up. Some of the pictures are other stuff that was there, that >the would not let me grab. > >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware > >Does anyone know what the "Sandia Laboratories" desk + racks is for? >There is only one thing left in the rack and it's in real bad shape. > >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_092748 >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_092802 >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_104726 > >-- >Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org >Embedded Linux Technologist >BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 17:33:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:33:28 -0400 Subject: FA: SGI drives & sleds, VME bus analyzer, TRS-80 OS-9 & BASIC09 In-Reply-To: <200504151343.15332.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050415160059.00b4d460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050415160059.00b4d460@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415183328.00b646b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:43 PM 4/15/05 -0700, you wrote: >Hey Joe, > >On Friday 15 April 2005 13:00, Joe R. wrote: >> Cleaning out more stuff that I don't need. >> . > >You said in your eBay adv. that you found info on the Vmetro VBT-321/F VME Bus >Analyzer card - I tried Googling and did not find anything. Do you have a >URL for info on this card? > >Thanks, >Lyle Google is your friend! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 15 17:36:25 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:36:25 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: References: <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050415183625.00b66a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:51 PM 4/15/05 -0400, Ethan wrote: > Needless to say, with all the other missing bits, I am >short the same red plexi that you are after, but quantity 2. How big a piece do you need? I see red plexi in the scrap equipment all the time. I've been thinking of picking it up but haven't since I seldom need the stuff. Joe From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 17:39:20 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 15:39:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new HP-2100 collector In-Reply-To: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Tim Riker wrote: > Seems I just took the plunge. I found a stash of hardware here and saved > it from the great bit bucket in the sky. > > Inventory: > > * HP-2116A - broken chassis, missing glass panel > * HP-2100A - missing cover > * HP 21MX 2112A > * HP 21MX 2108A > * HP 12979A I/O extender > * HP 2761A optical mark reader (melted rubber wheel) > * HP 2748B tape reader > * hp unknown mag tape drive > * 7901A disc drive that's been dropped > * 2 * HP-7900A disc drives > * 2 * 13215A disc power supply > * Commercial Controls Corporation tape punch > * unknown data logger > > and other misc cruft. I've not tried turning any of it on yet. Thatsi *QUITE* a nice score!! The melted rubber roller on the OMR is common. That happened to mine as well, as it did with the HP card readers I have. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 15 18:06:39 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:06:39 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) Message-ID: <0IF00096CG6LM562@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) > From: "Eric Smith" > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 10:13:26 -0700 (PDT) >I think Allison meant that the 8530 had the DRQ/DACK signals needed to >make it easily work with a DMA controller. Most simpler UART chips >didn't have those. No Eric, when I said it had DMA I ment the bus master and the data counters. Sheesh, I have disks near as old as me then drop more bits but munging info like that is a major brain fart. Oh well least I have the data books and the parts to correct myself. Oh, along the way the 85C30 was a far better part. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 15 18:11:27 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:11:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Prank paper accepted for computer comference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1300.192.168.0.10.1113606687.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > This is OT, but computer related. > > A computer-generated nonsense paper was accepted for presentation at the > World Multiconference on Systemics, Cybernetics and Informatics (WMSCI). > > The story is at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4449651.stm > and the paper can be read at: > http://www.pdos.lcs.mit.edu/scigen/rooter.pdf That is the printed paper equivalent of the latest series of Look Around You on BBC TV on this side of the pond - beautifully realised and produced but not funny! -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 15 18:13:29 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:13:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: OS Challenger video? In-Reply-To: <426005C3.6000807@atarimuseum.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <426005C3.6000807@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <1314.192.168.0.10.1113606809.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > If its pushing RF out, there's gotta be a composite source on the board > feeding into the RF modulator. > You were reading my mind there :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 15 18:18:03 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:18:03 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) Message-ID: <0IF0009X9GPLLW22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) > From: "Eric Smith" >That chip sucked when used as a plain old UART. In order to handle slight >speed mismatches between two modems emplying synchronous modulation, ;-) It was nearly a full clone of the Z80 SIO with one difference, the interrupt logic matched the 8085/8086 rather than Z80. As a simple SIO it was a major pita to use, too dang many registers. As a result I ahve a bunch of them and never use them. Ise the 2681, 8251 or 8250 before that beastie. The only thing worse to design with and use was the COM2501, dumb as a stump. Allison From cube1 at charter.net Fri Apr 15 18:18:21 2005 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:18:21 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <002301c531d3$1b3cd840$773cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> I am basically in the same boat. I have a Z2, no diskette (well, it had one, but it was seriously warped). A 5.25" disk image, along with a way to send it via a serial port would be just the ticket. Any developments since 3/25? Jay Jaeger At 01:11 AM 3/26/2005 -0600, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" >Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:15 PM >>Hi, >> >> Some recently mentioned that they had a significant amount of Cromemco >> software, if that person would be willing to allow me to make dup's of >> their disks I would appreciate it, I have a CP/M system with both 5.25" >> and 8" disks on it so I can handle reading both types, I have a Z2 that >> I'd like to get up and running again and I would really like to get >> copies of CDOS and any Cromemco specific utils, thanks. >> >> >> >>Curt > >I have one copy of CDOS posted on my site but it is messed up. I will be >posting different CDOS files etc very soon (hopefully this weekend). > >I have a few different CDOS's, application software (assembler, 2 >different basics, etc), 2 different CROMIX OS's, and more. > >The problem with Cromemco is the first track is formatted FM even on >double density disks. Many PC's can not write bootable Cromemco disks. > >Dave Dunfield is working on some software that sends Cromemco disk images >over a serial port to Cromemco's RDOS to create disks with any PC that has >a serial port. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 15 18:26:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:26:19 +0000 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050415183625.00b66a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050415183625.00b66a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1113607579.8134.56.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 18:36 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > At 05:51 PM 4/15/05 -0400, Ethan wrote: > > Needless to say, with all the other missing bits, I am > >short the same red plexi that you are after, but quantity 2. > > How big a piece do you need? I see red plexi in the scrap equipment all > the time. I've been thinking of picking it up but haven't since I seldom > need the stuff. it's raised in the middle - at least on our one, and with the Rockwell logo / name. One day it might come to the point of getting an engineering place to make one up, but I'm hoping we'll just find one before then! cheers Jules From Tim at rikers.org Fri Apr 15 18:46:35 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:46:35 -0500 Subject: new HP-2100 collector In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050415182950.00b61380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050415182950.00b61380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4260525B.2000204@Rikers.org> Joe R. wrote: > You lucky SOB! Where did you say that you were storing this? :-) I didn't say. ;-) ok, Dallas. Oh! I think I left the garage door open! ;-) > Do you > have access to any other goodies there? I spotted some other nice toys in > the pile. I have to negotiate. Some bits might be available. I'll likely move the pictures of stuff I didn't get into a sub album. Feel free to email me if you see something you are after. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 15 18:48:27 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:48:27 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Message-ID: <20050415234826.DRHG20276.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> >I am basically in the same boat. I have a Z2, no diskette (well, it had >one, but it was seriously warped). > >A 5.25" disk image, along with a way to send it via a serial port would be >just the ticket. > >Any developments since 3/25? I have software working which will both backup and restore Cromemco disks by reading/writing tracks to/from memory via the RDOS RD/WD commands, and transferring the data to/from the PC with D and SM commands ... it's slow, but it works, and I have successfully backed up and recreated both CDOS and Cromix boot disks in both 5.25" and 8" formats. The only problem is that in order to WD the disk, it has to be formatted. Currently I have to boot CDOS to format the disk - but once I have a blank disk (all it needs is the physical formatting since the file system will be overwritten), I can create either a CDOS or Cromix boot disk via a serial connection. The next step will be to see if we can transfer the CDOS and INIT images code directly to memory and activate it via the serial port - if I can get this working, then you should be able to create a boot disk without having to boot the system into CDOS first. I've just gotten busy with other things.... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 15 19:02:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 01:02:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <200504151844.LAA02942@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Apr 15, 5 11:44:21 am Message-ID: > > > Anyway, back to the original subject. > There is no magic bullet to bring these older machines > back to life. Some of the things that can help > are, not in any particular order: > > 1. Volt meter > 2. Logic Probe > 3. Set of schematics > 4. Oscilloscope > 5. Soldering iron w/ solder > 6. Parts to swap > 7. assembler/disassembler > 8. EPROM programmer > 9. Source listing > 10. Needle nose pliers > 11. solder sucker and/or solder wick I would disagree with (6). My metric for how well a classic computer repair has gone is how few components I replaced before I found the real cause. My aim, of course, is to make measurements, think about them, then replace just one part (or a small set of parts, all shown to be defective) and get the machine to come up first time. Alas I am not that good. > > Also, one needs clear logical thinking ( not all that > common in the world today ). I would totally agree with that. You can do a lot with minimal test equipment if you really understnad what you are doing, and can think about the symptoms. Occasionally. I find myself saying 'If only I had a 64 channel logic analuser I'd get this darn computer working'. What this generally means is that I don;'t really understnad what I am doing. And after a lot more thought, I realise I could have found the fault with nothing more than a VOM and logic probe. I've recently been chatting to a chap in Germany about repairing an HP9810. I've suggested measurements to try (he knows what he's doing, he's jsut never worked on a bit-serial processor built from TTL before). I explain what he's looking for, what his results mean, etc. On the second chip replacement, the machine came up (and I think the first one he replaced was defective too). That, IMHO, is real debugging... > The debugging procedure is in specific order: > 1. gather symptoms and observations. > 2. Form hypothesis of possible cause. > 3. Test to see if hypothesis is correct. > 4. If problem not found, include results into observations > of step one and repeat. Yes, the soldering iron is often the last thing you use when repairing a classic computer. Your first steps _must_ be to make measurements and think about them. And please don't get me started on the ridiculous idea of replacing random parts until the machine seems to work... -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 15 20:32:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 18:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: new HP-2100 collector Message-ID: <200504160132.SAA03210@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tim Riker" ---snip--- > >Does anyone know what the "Sandia Laboratories" desk + racks is for? >There is only one thing left in the rack and it's in real bad shape. > >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_092748 >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_092802 >http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_104726 > ---snip--- Hi Tim Sandia Labs do all kinds of things. They even build one of a kind super computers to all kinds of things. That rack could have been just about anything. Unless it was someone that worked there, that worked on that specific machine, I doubt anyone would know what it was for. Even then, it may be that because of their security clearance, they couldn't tell you what it was. Dwight From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 15 20:47:38 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:47:38 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> Message-ID: <42606EBA.40808@mdrconsult.com> Jay Jaeger wrote: > I am basically in the same boat. I have a Z2, no diskette (well, it had > one, but it was seriously warped). > > A 5.25" disk image, along with a way to send it via a serial port would > be just the ticket. > > Any developments since 3/25? I have a Z2D sitting in Arizona, and hope to pick it up in early- or mid-May. I haven't seen it yet. It came with several boxes of 5.25" floppy disks, but the donor had no idea what's on them, and most of them have at least a couple of conflicting labels. I've also been looking around for single-density drives for my PeeCee in preparation for transcribing whatever *is* on those disks, and have found a couple, but I haven't tested anything yet. Being this busy is good for the toy *budget*, but it sucks for play time. As soon as I get the system & disks home, and figure out how to image them, I'll make available whatever I've got. Doc From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 15 20:57:43 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:57:43 -0400 Subject: OS Challenger video? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050415135944.00b7f8d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it > only designed to drive an RF modulator? Factory should be composite, but you never know what has been hacked onto an OSI box. What model? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 21:00:43 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:00:43 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) In-Reply-To: <0IF00096CG6LM562@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF00096CG6LM562@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 4/15/05, Allison wrote: > Oh, along the way the 85C30 was a far better part. Do tell. I have a number of machines that use the Z8530 (Sun, Mac, Amiga A-Max board, COMBOARD...) and quite a few loose chips, but do not know any differences with the 85C30. -ethan From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 15 21:06:27 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:06:27 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com><4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> <42606EBA.40808@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:47 PM > Jay Jaeger wrote: >> I am basically in the same boat. I have a Z2, no diskette (well, it had >> one, but it was seriously warped). >> >> A 5.25" disk image, along with a way to send it via a serial port would >> be just the ticket. >> >> Any developments since 3/25? > > I have a Z2D sitting in Arizona, and hope to pick it up in early- or > mid-May. I haven't seen it yet. It came with several boxes of 5.25" > floppy disks, but the donor had no idea what's on them, and most of them > have at least a couple of conflicting labels. I've also been looking > around for single-density drives for my PeeCee in preparation for > transcribing whatever *is* on those disks, and have found a couple, but I > haven't tested anything yet. > > Being this busy is good for the toy *budget*, but it sucks for play > time. > > As soon as I get the system & disks home, and figure out how to image > them, I'll make available whatever I've got. > > > Doc Adding a "single-density" drive to a PC does not give you the ability to read single density. The PC itself is what needs to be able to handle FM. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 15 21:14:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:14:29 -0400 Subject: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) Message-ID: <0IF00010XOVMVV35@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?) > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:00:43 -0400 >> Oh, along the way the 85C30 was a far better part. > >Do tell. I have a number of machines that use the Z8530 (Sun, Mac, >Amiga A-Max board, COMBOARD...) and quite a few loose chips, but do >not know any differences with the 85C30. First off subbing in an 85C30 isn't going to improve those systems. The bigger differces is first the 85C30 is cmos and far lower in power. The DMA support is better with a 10x19 fifo for status and a 14 bit counter. The Softwaare interrupt ack feature is there (not in the NMOS part). It's about twice faster and easily support T1 trunk. There are subtle small changes that impact SDLC management. It's esscentally a pin compatable improved part. Thsi is why I have miles of shelf space, so if the brain fails I can look it up. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 21:14:28 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:14:28 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050415183625.00b66a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <1113565494.8152.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <3.0.6.32.20050415183625.00b66a70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/05, Joe R. wrote: > At 05:51 PM 4/15/05 -0400, Ethan wrote: > > Needless to say, with all the other missing bits, I am > >short the same red plexi that you are after, but quantity 2. > > How big a piece do you need? I see red plexi in the scrap equipment all > the time. I've been thinking of picking it up but haven't since I seldom > need the stuff. There's a place locally can get plain scrap plexi for that's pretty cheap. This particular part has a raised Rockwell logo and a 'frame' around the text display area, and the raised plastic is painted white. Like Jules, I'm hoping to find a real part for replacement. Thanks for offering, though. -ethan From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Apr 15 21:14:53 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:14:53 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com><4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> <42606EBA.40808@mdrconsult.com> <001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <4260751D.1090809@mdrconsult.com> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Adding a "single-density" drive to a PC does not give you the ability to > read single density. > > The PC itself is what needs to be able to handle FM. Yes, I know. Believe it or not, I've been paying close attention to the recent related threads. :) I've got an ISA Catweasel that ought to fly, but what I'm really counting on is the couple of 386-era I/O controllers I have stashed for just such an occasion. I also have at least one working 486 m/b that allows turning off the onboard FDC. Plus, I've got you guys for resource, right? Doc From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 15 21:17:22 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:17:22 -0500 Subject: OT but useful if you use PINE (now FreeCycle again) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050415211604.04b8f958@mail> At 12:59 AM 4/15/2005, you wrote: >So recently I subscribed to several of the local FreeCycle mailing lists >and set PINE filters to route those messages into their own folder. And I >began to receive a flood of messages. I peeked into the Madison (WI) area FreeCycle list - whew, I'm glad I'm not watching that list. 2,900 members; Madison is ~pop. 208,000. From the looks of it, someone with too much time and space could easily consume both very quickly, driving around picking up computer stuff that people want to give away. If you could receive the list in real-time in your truck, you could swoop on the computer stuff the minute the person's posting from their computer. And apparently some items go that quickly. I didn't spot any antique gems so far, but there were gobs and gobs of old PCs and Macs and parts, even Powerbooks and iMacs, up to 1 Ghz PCs, laser printers, you name it. I was surprised by the new stuff that people were giving away - DVD burners, wireless cards, etc. I also resisted visiting my county's "clean sweep" recycling site, where once or twice a year they collect hazardous waste. This time they expanded it to electronic equipment. The paper said they hauled away more than a semi-full of equipment. The photos showed mostly monitors on pallets. From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 15 21:19:03 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:19:03 -0700 Subject: ICL 1902 manuals Message-ID: <42607617.7070607@ix.netcom.com> Below is a thread (from Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers) on some ICL manuals. It would be great if one of our UK friends could get these (and/or a copy) to some of the archivists for everyone's benefits. Can anyone follow up on this? Billy Pettit ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan J. Wylie Apr 13, 1:49 pm show options Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: a... at wylie.me.uk (Alan J. Wylie) - Find messages by this author Date: 13 Apr 2005 21:49:09 +0100 Local: Wed,Apr 13 2005 1:49 pm Subject: Re: IBM's last tabulator (last unit-record punch card machine)? Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 09:46:25 +0100, Brian W Spoor said: > I already have cross-links with Rod between his 1300 site and my > 1900 site On the subject of 1900's: A long, long time ago (late 1975/early 1976), Computer Weekly[1] ran a "Win-A-Computer" competition for schools. My school (the then Keswick Grammar) entered a project analysing Cumbrian Stone Circles using a HP 9830A[2]. We came second. The first prize was a DEC Classic minicomputer. The day of the prize-giving clashed with one of my "A"-level exams, so I missed out on getting my photo in print and meeting Patrick Moore. Soon afterwards, a firm that was retiring its old 1900 donated it as a "second prize" to our school, just as I was leaving. My brother played with the bits and pieces (what on earth were a bunch of school children supposed to do with them?) and preserved some of them. A couple of weeks ago I helped him to clear out his loft, and rescued a box of manuals. I note your posting here of 2005-02-26[3], so if you are interested in any of the below, let me know. I'll look after them, and make sure they aren't lost to posterity. Inventory: ICT E.S.O. Machine Manual for Central Processors Type 1941/3 6us 16K sotre serial no 405 ICL 1902-3 Training Manual ICT Program Specification Standard Executive 1902/3 ICL System Manual - Volume I Central Processors - Volume II Basic Peripherals ICT Engineering Services Manual Type 1902, volumes 1,3,4 and 5, plus two binders of circuit diagrams, etc. ICL 1902-3 System Programmes Logic Diagrams - Type 1915 and 1916 paper tape readers 1925 paper tape punch Type 1902 Central Processor [1] http://www.computerweekly.com/ [2] http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp9830?.htm [3] http://groups.google.co.uk/gro?ups?selm=M7qdnSuy-ZUuf73fRVnyv?g%40eclip... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Billy Apr 14, 8:30 pm show options Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: "Billy" - Find messages by this author Date: 14 Apr 2005 20:30:25 -0700 Local: Thurs,Apr 14 2005 8:30 pm Subject: Re: IBM's last tabulator (last unit-record punch card machine)? Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Remove | Report Abuse They are several sites that will scan old manuals available and make them available on archivist sites. Most noteable is bitsavers: http://computer-refuge.org/bit?savers/ If you will allow me to forward your message to some of these archivists, we can find a way to preserve these manuals for the benefit of all. I've been getting all my old CDC manuals ready to put up on the net. Other oldtimers have done the same. Your treasure trove would make a wonderful addition to the online library. The manuals could be returned to you after scanning. Billy Pettit Reply ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Alan J. Wylie Apr 14, 11:55 pm show options Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: a... at wylie.me.uk (Alan J. Wylie) - Find messages by this author Date: 15 Apr 2005 07:55:42 +0100 Local: Thurs,Apr 14 2005 11:55 pm Subject: Re: IBM's last tabulator (last unit-record punch card machine)? Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse On 14 Apr 2005 20:30:25 -0700, "Billy" said: > If you will allow me to forward your message to some of these > archivists, we can find a way to preserve these manuals for the > benefit of all. Of course - that's my primary motivation for rescuing the box - to make sure that the information is preserved for posterity. I'm in Yorkshire, UK. -- - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Alan J. Wylie http://www.wylie.me.uk/ "Perfection [in design] is achieved not when there is nothing left to add, but rather when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery Reply ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brian W Spoor Apr 15, 1:51 am show options Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers From: Brian W Spoor - Find messages by this author Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 09:51:45 +0100 Local: Fri,Apr 15 2005 1:51 am Subject: Re: IBM's last tabulator (last unit-record punch card machine)? Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse - Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Alan J. Wylie wrote: > I note your posting here of 2005-02-26[3], so if you are interested in > any of the below, let me know. I'll look after them, and make sure > they aren't lost to posterity. > Inventory: > ICT E.S.O. Machine Manual for Central Processors > Type 1941/3 6us 16K sotre serial no 405 > ICL 1902-3 Training Manual > ICT Program Specification Standard Executive 1902/3 > ICL System Manual - Volume I Central Processors > - Volume II Basic Peripherals > ICT Engineering Services Manual Type 1902, volumes 1,3,4 and 5, > plus two binders of circuit diagrams, etc. > ICL 1902-3 System Programmes > Logic Diagrams - Type 1915 and 1916 paper tape readers > 1925 paper tape punch > Type 1902 Central Processor I'm interested in any IC1900 related manuals to either borrow or add to my collection, with the intention of making them available online as PDF files. See: http://www.fcs.eu.com/techlib/?index.html and http://www.fcs.eu.com/icl1900/?library.html Did you get my email? From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 15 21:19:25 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:19:25 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050415211925.06d57fef.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 13:28:36 -0500 (CDT) JP Hindin wrote: > > On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Ashley Carder wrote: > > north of Orangeburg, where the stuff is located. I > > can't remember... how heavy is that S/34? I remember > > that it was about 4+ feet tall and maybe 6 or 8 feet > > deep. I can remember one night when I was playing > > Having moved one from Arkansas to Iowa, I can tell you that it isn't a > task to be taken on lightly. Particularly without a lift-deck. > > I'm guessing the unit weighs around 900lbs, is approximately 7' long, > 3' deep and 4' high. > The machine is on good quality casters, so it'll roll like a dream, > but it's extreme weight makes it a royal pain in the butt to move. > > If you'd like a chuckle, you can view my attempts to move it using a > Ford F150, a winch and a pair of lawnmower ramps: > http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/IBM_s34/PickUp/ > About a year ago I didn't bid on a forklift that sold at a local municipal auction. It sold for $2 because nobody else bid on it either. It needed new batteries but otherwise was probably fine. I don't have any sort of flat cement surface to use it on, in addition to other reasons I didn't bid on it. It'd be useful for the scale of CC museum operation that operates out of a poured cement floor building (I have a gravel driveway, and a garage infested with mice) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 21:20:30 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:20:30 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <0IF0009X9GPLLW22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF0009X9GPLLW22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 4/15/05, Allison wrote: > The only thing worse to design with and use was the COM2501, dumb > as a stump. Heh... we used the COM5025 for our Unibus COMBOARDs (before we switched to the Z8530). _The_ reason was that it was the sync serial chip on the Qbus board (DPV11?) for our earlier protocol box that was, in effect, an entire PDP-11 that hung off of a larger host -11 and did HASP and 3780 front-end work. They went with the same serial chip to simplify the porting effort (the first cut of the code was converted from MACRO-11 to 68K assembly by a TECO macro). I have *hundreds* of COM5025 chips on the shelf here. Never found a use for them. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 15 21:22:42 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:22:42 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Message-ID: <0IF000GGXP9B3CR2@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks > From: "Randy McLaughlin" >Adding a "single-density" drive to a PC does not give you the ability to >read single density. There is for all intents no such animal as a "single density drive". >The PC itself is what needs to be able to handle FM. Some can, some can't. The 765 FDC core knows both and and *should* but with the bare 765 chip that requires a bit of external logic around clocks and data seperators. For the later integrated 765 cores like the 37C65 it's more a programming issue. One caveat on that is the slowest rate (125kb/s 5.25 SD) is often not available however if you have a standalone XT or AT class clard the typical 16mhz clock on the board can be replaced with a 8mhz (move all the data rates down by 50%). I have such a hacked board as it was an older one using a 765A and came with a rare thing, a schematic. However bios support for such a thing is NOT there and you have to do all the work and even for an unhacked board the bios may be less than helpful. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 15 21:20:24 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 19:20:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "Doc Shipley" > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 8:47 PM > > Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> I am basically in the same boat. I have a Z2, no diskette (well, it had > >> one, but it was seriously warped). > >> > >> A 5.25" disk image, along with a way to send it via a serial port would > >> be just the ticket. > >> > >> Any developments since 3/25? > > > > I have a Z2D sitting in Arizona, and hope to pick it up in early- or > > mid-May. I haven't seen it yet. It came with several boxes of 5.25" > > floppy disks, but the donor had no idea what's on them, and most of them > > have at least a couple of conflicting labels. I've also been looking > > around for single-density drives for my PeeCee in preparation for > > transcribing whatever *is* on those disks, and have found a couple, but I > > haven't tested anything yet. > > > > Being this busy is good for the toy *budget*, but it sucks for play > > time. > > > > As soon as I get the system & disks home, and figure out how to image > > them, I'll make available whatever I've got. > > > > > > Doc > > Adding a "single-density" drive to a PC does not give you the ability to > read single density. > > The PC itself is what needs to be able to handle FM. Right. And you also need good software tools. In my experience, 22disk is hardly useful. Anadisk is good. Xenocopy is way better. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 15 21:38:42 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:38:42 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com><4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> <42606EBA.40808@mdrconsult.com><001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop> <4260751D.1090809@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000c01c5422d$6ad7b450$da3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Doc Shipley" Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:14 PM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> Adding a "single-density" drive to a PC does not give you the ability to >> read single density. >> >> The PC itself is what needs to be able to handle FM. > > Yes, I know. Believe it or not, I've been paying close attention to the > recent related threads. :) > > I've got an ISA Catweasel that ought to fly, but what I'm really > counting on is the couple of 386-era I/O controllers I have stashed for > just such an occasion. I also have at least one working 486 m/b that > allows turning off the onboard FDC. > > Plus, I've got you guys for resource, right? > > > Doc Keeping in mind that we are talking about 5.25" Cromemco disks: I'm always willing to share my experience in hooking up drives to PC's. If all you are interested in is reading you can use a 1.2mb drive. For writing it is best to use 360K disks. Cromemco's with 4FDC's can only handle FM. All other disk controllers can handle either FM or MFM. For MFM any PC will work for reading writing the files, the first boot track is always FM. If you want the PC to read or write the boot track you must have a compatible controller. Randy From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 15 22:08:28 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:08:28 -0500 Subject: new HP-2100 collector References: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <009101c54231$907d5210$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote.... > Seems I just took the plunge. I found a stash of hardware here and saved > it from the great bit bucket in the sky. > > Inventory: ... inventory snipped so no one drools... Very, Very, Very good haul. And what I can't believe the most of all.... the I/O extender has a 12920 mux set in it, which is required for TSB and quite rare. Normally the presence of a 2108, 2112, and mux set would make me strongly suspect the machine was running Access. But the card placements are wrong, and it's missing a key component for sure - the processor interconnect kit. >From the looks of it, off the top of my head, all that's needed for Access is the IOP firmware, processor interconnect kit, and a 7970 mag tape drive. Unfreakingbelievable. Congrats!!! Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 15 22:10:15 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:10:15 -0500 Subject: new HP-2100 collector References: <3.0.6.32.20050415182950.00b61380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <4260525B.2000204@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <00a001c54231$cfc48240$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote... > Feel free to email me > if you see something you are after. Yeah, the 2116 :> Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Apr 15 22:13:39 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:13:39 -0500 Subject: HP 2100 stuff again Message-ID: <00b201c54232$494788b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Forgot to mention, the 2100A he has there also has a WCS card & connector. WCS is about the funnest toy to have on an HP box :) Congrats again on an awesome find :) Jay West From andyda at mac.com Fri Apr 15 10:21:25 2005 From: andyda at mac.com (Andy Dannelley) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 08:21:25 -0700 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <08253F82-ADC2-11D9-A928-000D936E90CA@mac.com> First, Thanks for all the helpful suggestions! I plan to swap the RAM around this weekend, and do as Tony suggested, which is to use my VOM just to see if the clocks and/or address data lines are stuck high or low. I also have the assembler and basic ROMs installed (they were both options when my AIM was new) and I guess maybe it might be a good idea to remove them as well, just to have only the absolute minimum on the board. Also, I have been corresponding with another person off-list, so maybe I can get this thing repaired after-all!! :) Couple of things about general AIM-lore: Most AIM 65's were sold as boards, the case came later, but I never got around to getting one. The original AIM 65 (not the AIM 65/40) had a 20 char alpha LED display. The Aim 65/40 had a 40 character vacuum fluorescent display and 40 character printer, much more friendly for development than the 20 char display and printer. The stock AIM 65 did not come with the Assembler or Basic (those were options) Later Rockwell also offered a set of FORTH ROMs ( I have them, never did program much FORTH though) The stock AIM 65 was offered with either 1K or 4K RAM, I bought a 1K and a guy I knew at Rockwell gave me the other 3K. Way back then, I used to be a consultant, did most of my work with Rockwell PPS 4 and PPS 8 and 6502 I even used to teach seminars for Rockwell to their customers on PPS 4 and 8 (mostly PPS 4). The AIM 65 was a fair development platform, we used to use a Rockwell System 65 for much of our code development and test, but we also used the AIM 65 for development and test, and I could also my AIM 65 at home when I didn't go to the office. Way more than anyone wanted to hear, I hope it is not too long a message. Later, AndyD From Nanoman at stny.rr.com Fri Apr 15 10:54:28 2005 From: Nanoman at stny.rr.com (Jim.E.Neutron) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 11:54:28 -0400 Subject: Looking for ROM code printout for SDK-86 Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050415115314.04a78160@pop-server.stny.rr.com> Hi, I am looking to get a ROM code "dump" for the SDK-86. I have a SDK-86 without the ROMs. Thanks, From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Apr 15 19:25:31 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 20:25:31 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <01C541F9.822D5BC0@H80.C223.tor.velocet.net> --------------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:44:26 -0700 From: Andy Dannelley Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Connected the +5v only and turned it on again... nothing, nada, zilch (bummer) I don't have a scope or anything, I only have a VOM, so my testing is rather limited, I don't even know anyone who still has an o'scope. Any ideas of what I could try? Any ideas of a way I can get it repaired in So. CA? Thanks for any and all help or ideas, Andy ------------------Reply: Make sure both the STEP & TTY switches are forward (toward the keyboard) and press RESET a few times; they were reluctant to start at times. If there's a remote RESET button, disconnect it. Next, I would try removing all unnecessary chips & swapping where possible, in case one of them is locking up the bus (the most common problem). There were several models/revisions of the AIM 65; assuming you have one of the original 4K 20 column versions with 2114 RAMS and not the 40K version with 32K & 8K RAMs (or the 40 column version): Remove Z7, Z12, Z18, Z6, Z11 and Z17, as well as Z1 (6522). (If it's a 40K model: remove Z1 and Z2) Also remove Z24, Z25 & Z26 if there are any (Option ROMs). Confirm that Z22 & Z23 contain R3222 & R3223 ROMs respectively. If it still doesn't start, replace the Z32 6522 (underneath the display) with the one you removed; also, if it's a 4K model, try replacing the two remaining 2114s (Z2 & Z3) as Ethan suggested. If it's still dead, by all means try measuring the address & data lines as Tony suggested (one of those times when an analog VOM is useful). Good luck! BTW, the 24V is indeed only required for the printer, so you can leave it disconnected; it will start with a "PRINTER DOWN" message if the printer is not powered or connected. And FYI: BASIC was an option (Z25 & Z26) as was the assembler, PL/1, and a host of other goodies. And the 40 column model did indeed have a fluorescent display; the 20 col. versions used DL1416 LED displays. Jules: I may still have some display covers; I'll have a look & let you know. BTW, AIM65s were indeed just bare boards & keyboards initially, with various 3rd parties making cases for them, but then Rockwell (and later Dynatem, who took over the AIM65) started to supply them with the metal-bottom/brown-plastic-cover case & power supply. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Apr 15 19:37:25 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 20:37:25 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <01C541FA.F3F3D580@H88.C223.tor.velocet.net> --------------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 10:44:26 -0700 From: Andy Dannelley Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Connected the +5v only and turned it on again... nothing, nada, zilch (bummer) I don't have a scope or anything, I only have a VOM, so my testing is rather limited, I don't even know anyone who still has an o'scope. Any ideas of what I could try? Any ideas of a way I can get it repaired in So. CA? Thanks for any and all help or ideas, Andy ------------------Reply: Make sure both the STEP & TTY switches are forward (toward the keyboard) and press RESET a few times; they were reluctant to start at times. If there's a remote RESET button, disconnect it. Next, I would try removing all unnecessary chips & swapping where possible, in case one of them is locking up the bus (the most common problem). There were several models/revisions of the AIM 65; assuming you have one of the original 4K 20 column versions with 2114 RAMS and not the 40K version with 32K & 8K RAMs (or the 40 column version): Remove Z7, Z12, Z18, Z6, Z11 and Z17, as well as Z1 (6522). (If it's a 40K model: remove Z1 and Z2) Also remove Z24, Z25 & Z26 if there are any (Option ROMs). Confirm that Z22 & Z23 contain R3222 & R3223 ROMs respectively. If it still doesn't start, replace the Z32 6522 (underneath the display) with the one you removed; also, if it's a 4K model, try replacing the two remaining 2114s (Z2 & Z3) as Ethan suggested. If it's still dead, by all means try measuring the address & data lines as Tony suggested (one of those times when an analog VOM is useful). Good luck! BTW, the 24V is indeed only required for the printer, so you can leave it disconnected; it will start with a "PRINTER DOWN" message if the printer is not powered or connected. And FYI: BASIC was an option (Z25 & Z26) as was the assembler, PL/1, and a host of other goodies. And the 40 column model did indeed have a fluorescent display; the 20 col. versions used DL1416 LED displays. Jules: I may still have some display covers; I'll have a look & let you know. BTW, AIM65s were indeed just bare boards & keyboards initially, with various 3rd parties making cases for them, but then Rockwell (and later Dynatem, who took over the AIM65) started to supply them with the metal-bottom/brown-plastic-cover case & power supply. mike From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Apr 15 20:23:16 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 21:23:16 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <01C54201.769F9EA0@H74.C223.tor.velocet.net> -------------------Original Message: Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 20:24:56 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Dead AIM 65?? >The downside is that there's only room on the mainboard for 4K, >so memory expansions are external, and used to cost a lot >(and are rare now because there didn't use to be a wide variety of them). Later versions had provision for up to 40K on board; I've got one sitting beside me. >It's pretty useful out of the box for a machine that doesn't >come with a disk interface. You certainly get more than the few >digits and a calculator keypad of the KIM/SYM line. Don't forget about the built-in current-loop & almost-RS232 interface; with the built-in monitor & text editor it was almost a "real" computer when connected to a terminal/TTY, even using the built-in (very reliable) cassette interface instead of the optional disk drive. Other factory options included EPROM programmer, Centronics printer interface, CRTC video interface etc.; languages included BASIC, FORTH, PL/1, Pascal and assembler; the AIM65 was also the core of a fairly extensive professional 65xx development system with the AIM65 SPS & DOS ROMs and various optional RM65 expansion modules. mike From cube1 at charter.net Fri Apr 15 22:58:33 2005 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:58:33 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <000c01c5422d$6ad7b450$da3dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi> <42606EBA.40808@mdrconsult.com> <001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop> <4260751D.1090809@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050415225355.03be3c28@cirithi> Hmm. I have here a Maynard "Sandstar" controller with a NEC D765AC and some special software called "JFORMAT-2" which has parameterized disk tables. It handles 8" single density 3740, so it ought to be able to handle this single density as well so I could format, yes? (I also have a couple of real IBM PC's I can throw it into). If so, then presumably I could format some disks (I have some disks I had for my old Atari 800 that I expect would work), and get the rest from Mr. Dunfield, yes? [I'd need to know where to download that stuff from...] Jay At 09:38 PM 4/15/2005 -0500, Randy McLaughlin wrote: >From: "Doc Shipley" >Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 9:14 PM >>Randy McLaughlin wrote: >> >>>Adding a "single-density" drive to a PC does not give you the ability to >>>read single density. >>> >>>The PC itself is what needs to be able to handle FM. >> >> Yes, I know. Believe it or not, I've been paying close attention to >> the recent related threads. :) >> >> I've got an ISA Catweasel that ought to fly, but what I'm really >> counting on is the couple of 386-era I/O controllers I have stashed for >> just such an occasion. I also have at least one working 486 m/b that >> allows turning off the onboard FDC. >> >> Plus, I've got you guys for resource, right? >> >> >>Doc >Keeping in mind that we are talking about 5.25" Cromemco disks: > >I'm always willing to share my experience in hooking up drives to PC's. > >If all you are interested in is reading you can use a 1.2mb drive. > >For writing it is best to use 360K disks. > >Cromemco's with 4FDC's can only handle FM. All other disk controllers can >handle either FM or MFM. > >For MFM any PC will work for reading writing the files, the first boot >track is always FM. > >If you want the PC to read or write the boot track you must have a >compatible controller. > > >Randy > --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 15 23:04:58 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:04:58 -0400 Subject: Final reminder: 30th Trenton Computer Festival is this weekend Message-ID: <200504160403.j3G43vJ2077708@dewey.classiccmp.org> http://www.tcf-nj.org (returns this year to Trenton State College, now called "The College of New Jersey") Special exhibit: MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists) and the New Jersey Antique Radio Club ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Apr 15 23:33:17 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:33:17 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Message-ID: <20050416043316.HJPJ20276.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> I played with the serial <> RDOS transfer a little bit more this evening. I was able to transfer an image of CDOS + INIT into the machine and start it up directly from memory - however in order to make sure that this is doable on a Cromemco bank switched memory card, I have to keep it within 32k ... I discovered that CDOS won't INIT a DS/DD disk when it's gen'd for 32k (I get a weird error about a non-existant drive 'h') ... It works fine if gen'd for 48k or 64k. It will however INIT a SS/SD disk when it's gen'd for 32k ... so it's going to be a bit of a multi-step process. First, you download CDOS+INIT to memory and INIT a SS/SD disk - then you transfer a SS/SD disk image with 48k gen'd CDOS and INIT - this will let you INIT any type of disk. Once you INIT a DS/DD disk, then you can transfer the full CDOS and Cromix images. I'm doing this with 5.25" drives - I assume most people will be able to dig up a 5.25" drive to bootstrap, even if their machine as 8" drives - I'm genning the CDOS to have Drives A=Small B=Large C=Small and D=Large - that way you should be able to INIT the right type of drive on a system with either two small or two large drives. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cctalk at randy482.com Fri Apr 15 23:42:13 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 23:42:13 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks References: <4244C3AD.9070005@internet1.net> <4244EFF7.4030504@atarimuseum.com><4.3.2.7.2.20050415181450.03bb7828@cirithi><42606EBA.40808@mdrconsult.com><001701c54228$e9d98940$7392d6d1@randylaptop><4260751D.1090809@mdrconsult.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20050415225355.03be3c28@cirithi> Message-ID: <001801c5423e$ac329990$023dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Jay Jaeger" Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:58 PM > Hmm. I have here a Maynard "Sandstar" controller with a NEC D765AC and > some special software called "JFORMAT-2" which has parameterized disk > tables. It handles 8" single density 3740, so it ought to be able to > handle this single density as well so I could format, yes? > > (I also have a couple of real IBM PC's I can throw it into). > > If so, then presumably I could format some disks (I have some disks I had > for my old Atari 800 that I expect would work), and get the rest from Mr. > Dunfield, yes? [I'd need to know where to download that stuff from...] > > Jay Technically FM on 8" (250k) and FM on 5.25" (125k) are different but only in transfer rate. If it handles 3740 as well as IBM 360K then it should handle most CP/M and all CDOS formats. The only real issues are either differences in different soft-sectored controllers (Western Digital based chips have some formats that the 765 based chips can't handle but are rarely used) or the basic ability to handle FM (as in 3740 format). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Apr 16 00:04:20 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:04:20 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks References: <20050416043316.HJPJ20276.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <003b01c54241$c76faf60$023dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Dave Dunfield" Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 11:33 PM >I played with the serial <> RDOS transfer a little bit more > this evening. > > I was able to transfer an image of CDOS + INIT into the machine > and start it up directly from memory - however in order to make > sure that this is doable on a Cromemco bank switched memory card, > I have to keep it within 32k ... I discovered that CDOS won't INIT > a DS/DD disk when it's gen'd for 32k (I get a weird error about a > non-existant drive 'h') ... It works fine if gen'd for 48k or 64k. > > It will however INIT a SS/SD disk when it's gen'd for 32k ... so > it's going to be a bit of a multi-step process. First, you download > CDOS+INIT to memory and INIT a SS/SD disk - then you transfer a > SS/SD disk image with 48k gen'd CDOS and INIT - this will let you > INIT any type of disk. Once you INIT a DS/DD disk, then you can > transfer the full CDOS and Cromix images. > > I'm doing this with 5.25" drives - I assume most people will be > able to dig up a 5.25" drive to bootstrap, even if their machine > as 8" drives - I'm genning the CDOS to have Drives A=Small B=Large > C=Small and D=Large - that way you should be able to INIT the > right type of drive on a system with either two small or two > large drives. > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html That's great! I can make a few suggestions: I can send you older CDOS's that should be more memory lean. Some older CDOS's had normal SA800 support via undocumented drive type 'X' even though CDOSGEN only references 'S'mall & 'L'arge. If you have 64K of RAM RDOS can be copied to RAM giving you access to the full 64K allowing Larger CDOS's: Using a random address such as 1000H: ld hl,0C000H ld de,2000H ld bc,1000H ldir ld a,1 out (40H),a ld hl,2000H ld de,0C000H ld bc,1000H ldir ret Just use the substitute memory command to enter the above code (hex) and do a g 1000 (a return returns to RDOS). You are now running RDOS out of RAM. You can have one 32K CDOS and maybe a 64K CDOS to transfer. BTW you never have to use 8080 only opcodes since RDOS & CDOS only run on Z80's. Also the above code can go in any free space and is not address dependent. Remind people of my favorite mantra: 3.5" drives with DD media will be happy to act as 5.25" DD drives. Randy From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Apr 16 00:20:56 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 01:20:56 -0400 Subject: OS Challenger Video? In-Reply-To: <200504160401.j3G412Wt077617@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504160520.j3G5KpXW010064@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "Can the Challenger drive a compostite video monitor directly or is it only designed to drive an RF modulator?" Since the input to a modulator is a composite video signal, the answer is that both of your "or" options are the same thing. However, some of the OSI video cards were 5-signal outputs (red, blue, green, H sync, V sync) which, in terms of your question, would be "neither". It's not difficult, however, to mix the two sync signals with one of the video signals and then drive a monochrome monitor or a modulator. From tomj at wps.com Sat Apr 16 00:24:29 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <0IF0009X9GPLLW22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF0009X9GPLLW22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050415222105.H678@localhost> On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Allison wrote: > As a result I ahve a bunch of them and never use them. Ise the 2681, > 8251 or 8250 before that beastie. 8251! Now there's a turkey! At least it was simple. One of the buggiest pieces of crap I ever had to initialize. > The only thing worse to design with and use was the COM2501, dumb > as a stump. Serial chips, I get post-traumatic-stress just thinking about them. From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Apr 16 00:29:15 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 01:29:15 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks In-Reply-To: <200504160403.j3G43Ah7077650@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504160529.j3G5TAWZ012732@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I put a bios and boot code up on Howard Harte's site some time ago. This was source code for CP/M 2.2 (and it's in 8080 MAC/ASM assembler). If you have a working system, it's not too difficult to get this running. Again, the source code can be downloaded from Howard's site. As it exists, it's configured for 8". Should not be difficult to modify for 5.25". It works, I'm actually running it on a 16FDC (I believe that it will work on a 4FDC also). From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 00:53:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 01:53:07 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <08253F82-ADC2-11D9-A928-000D936E90CA@mac.com> References: <08253F82-ADC2-11D9-A928-000D936E90CA@mac.com> Message-ID: On 4/15/05, Andy Dannelley wrote: > First, Thanks for all the helpful suggestions! You are welcome. > Couple of things about general AIM-lore: > > The original AIM 65 (not the AIM 65/40) had a 20 char alpha LED > display. The Aim 65/40 had a 40 character vacuum fluorescent display > and 40 character printer, much more friendly for development than the > 20 char display and printer. I think I have heard of the AIM 65/40... if someone here knows such things, was the motherboard re-engineered? Is it possible to retrofit the 40-col display to the original AIM? Also, was the 40-col VFD run by something like an HD44780 chipset, or was it some kind of raw interface? These days, 40x1 or 40x2 VFDs based on the HD44780 are not difficult to locate and are not all that expensive. They are also trivial to send chars to. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 16 02:13:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <20050415211925.06d57fef.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 15 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > About a year ago I didn't bid on a forklift that sold at a local > municipal auction. It sold for $2 because nobody else bid on it either. > It needed new batteries but otherwise was probably fine. I don't have > any sort of flat cement surface to use it on, in addition to other > reasons I didn't bid on it. It'd be useful for the scale of CC museum > operation that operates out of a poured cement floor building (I have a > gravel driveway, and a garage infested with mice) ANY forklift these days is worth big bucks. You could've bought it and turned it around for some number WELL over $2 without lifting a finger to move it. Anyway, mine was effectively free. Right time/right place kind of thing with a nice client ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Sat Apr 16 02:47:07 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:47:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP/M-80 Kermit source, in TDL/Xitan Z80 mnemonics, anyone? Message-ID: <20050416002732.N678@localhost> I know this is a long shot, but does anyone have a Kermit assembler source for the Phoenix Software Associates PASM assembler? I'm lazy, and trying to avoid lots of tedious editing to convert from some other version. Or a BDS C version? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Apr 16 03:01:22 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:01:22 -0400 Subject: OS Challenger Video? In-Reply-To: <200504160520.j3G5KpXW010064@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: Barry Watzman wrote > However, some of the OSI video cards were 5-signal outputs (red, blue, > green, H sync, V sync) I've never seen one or documentation/sales lit for one. Do you know the part number? Bill From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 16 03:46:39 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 03:46:39 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <20050415211925.06d57fef.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050415211925.06d57fef.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504160346.39358.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 15 April 2005 21:19, Scott Stevens wrote: > About a year ago I didn't bid on a forklift that sold at a local > municipal auction. It sold for $2 because nobody else bid on it > either. It needed new batteries but otherwise was probably fine. I Assuming this is the one I'm thinking of (in the Indianapolis auction), I'm rather annoyed I missed bidding on it if it went for that little. I figured it'd go for a lot more than I wanted to spend. *Sigh* Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Sat Apr 16 03:49:43 2005 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:49:43 +0200 Subject: Searching: Info about Racal-Redac Monarch Message-ID: <4260D1A7.4000301@gmx.net> Part of my last haul of pdp8/e equipment (more about this will follow when pictures are online) are 20 to 30 8" floppies labeled "Racal-Redac Monarch System Disks", etc. A quick google showed nothing relevant. Any info about this would be appreciated. Thanks Gerold From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 04:34:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 05:34:07 -0400 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <200504160346.39358.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050415211925.06d57fef.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200504160346.39358.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 4/16/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 15 April 2005 21:19, Scott Stevens wrote: > > About a year ago I didn't bid on a forklift that sold at a local > > municipal auction. It sold for $2 because nobody else bid on it > > either. It needed new batteries but otherwise was probably fine. I > > Assuming this is the one I'm thinking of (in the Indianapolis auction), > I'm rather annoyed I missed bidding on it if it went for that little. > I figured it'd go for a lot more than I wanted to spend. I'll bet... I would have been *ecstatic* to get a fork for a few bucks plus new batteries. I even have a 32'x50' building with a concrete floor to wheel it around in... -ethan From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Sat Apr 16 05:05:07 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:05:07 +0100 Subject: CPC ISA cards References: <1300.192.168.0.10.1113606687.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <001401c5426b$d0c480c0$0200a8c0@geoff> cpc has 2 cheap isa cards in it's computer clearout brochure - available whilst stocks last.. http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/home/homepage.jsp SUN-4011A : ISA 2xparallel port with bi-directional, Hi-IRQ(3-15) and Hi-LPT(1-6) 16-bit, ISA bus with buffer Bi-directional support for speed up to 180bps Printer ports: each can select 3 I/O addresses and independent IRQ Port 1: I/O address LPT1(3BC), LPT2(378), LPT3(287), LPT4(268), LPT5(27C), LPT6(26C). IRQ selection 3/4/5/7/9/10/11/12/15 Port 2: As 1 Order code CS0231214 ?1.99. ( original code CS02312 ) SUN-3070 : Super I/O Card CS02317ISA IDE/FDC/2xserial/1xECP/EPP/SPP Chipset: ACC Micro ACC3223 IDE: 2 hard disk controllers with buffer, disable/enable Floppy disk controllersx2, disable/enable Serial (UART): 2xhigh speed UART with FIFOUART1: I/O address COM1/2/3/4, IRQ 3/4/5/7/9/10/12/14/15, disable/enableUART2: As 1 Printer Port: 1xECP/EPP/SPP. I/O address: LPT 1/2/3. IRQ 3/4/5/7/9/10/11/12/14/15 Order code CS0231714 ?5.00 (original code CS02317 ) Annoyingly reduced prices with order codes not available online for some reason , but are on the cpc system. Staff are baffled as to why. Original codes give specs and original prices online. Geoff. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 16 07:08:53 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:08:53 +0100 Subject: Data General books available in the UK Message-ID: <006b01c5427d$0f813b80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, after a visit to the local tip this week, I have a few Data General books available (no computer though :-(). Data General Interface Designer's Manual for Nova and Eclipse line computers and the following EMI books detailing the system and programming of the DG machine coupled to a medical scanner: Scintron 3 camera diagnostic softwares Scintron 3 service manual Scinticamera detector head NE8900 & NE8960 IO tester for eclips processor Parts A & B Nova 3 Exerciser test (N3EXS) Eclipse microcode flowchart Eclipse basic instruction ROMS and Decoding Nova 3 Multi-Programming Rel (SH) (N3MORT03) a number of these seem to be re-bindings of the equivalent DG publication. They cost me a beer for the lot, yours for the cost of postage (and a beer if your feeling generous :-)) Jim. (weight is around 6lbs for the lot) Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Apr 16 08:46:02 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:46:02 -0500 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <20050415222105.H678@localhost> References: <0IF0009X9GPLLW22@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050415222105.H678@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050416084508.04c23108@mail> At 12:24 AM 4/16/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >>The only thing worse to design with and use was the COM2501, dumb >>as a stump. > >Serial chips, I get post-traumatic-stress just thinking about >them. And reading the manual of Chuck Forsberg's Pro-YAM, I always had the impression that's what happened to him, too. - John From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Apr 16 09:04:39 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 07:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Searching: Info about Racal-Redac Monarch In-Reply-To: <4260D1A7.4000301@gmx.net> References: <4260D1A7.4000301@gmx.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Gerold Pauler wrote: > Part of my last haul of pdp8/e equipment (more about this will follow when > pictures are online) > are 20 to 30 8" floppies labeled "Racal-Redac Monarch System Disks", etc. > > A quick google showed nothing relevant. Any info about this would be > appreciated. > > Thanks > Gerold > Dont know about Monarch, but Racal Redac had one of the early PCB CAD systems though I thought they ran on PDP11's Peter Wallace From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 09:33:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:33:33 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) Message-ID: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2005 22:24:29 -0700 (PDT) >8251! Now there's a turkey! At least it was simple. One of the >buggiest pieces of crap I ever had to initialize. I use the for basic serial as they depending on version are predictable and easy to init. using them for other protocals, can you say masochistic! >Serial chips, I get post-traumatic-stress just thinking about >them. I'll remember that one. Though compared to serial chips many disk controllers and their associated stuff that wraps around them programtically are pretty horrid too. Allison From molsen at runbox.com Sat Apr 16 09:52:55 2005 From: molsen at runbox.com (Marshall G. Olsen) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:52:55 -0600 Subject: free stuff Message-ID: <200504161452.j3GEqNPx082461@dewey.classiccmp.org> I am moving from a home in South West Michigan, between St. Joseph and South Haven. I have old classic computer equipment I will give away, but will not ship, as I do not have time to pack it. It can be picked up between Monday April 25 and 29. Email or call me if interested. I have the following: DG Computer with 64 K RAM, Z-80 CPU DG Keyboard 2 Monitors that work but are not original DG Phideck with 4 drives. External Floppy drives Digital Group dot matrix printer. A box of misc boards for use in the DG Model 33 Teletype Model 40 Teletype One S-100 Computer configured to use with TurboDOS, a multi-user operating system much like C/PM. This has a 5 MB hard drive and one 8 inch floppy drive. I have additional software on disk for this system. It needs a minor repair, a cable needs to be made for the controller. Televideo terminal, for use with the S-100 box. Marshall G. Olsen molsen at runbox.com 312-498-2955 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 09:56:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:56:20 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Message-ID: <0IF100FL0O5595B1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks > From: "Randy McLaughlin" >The only real issues are either differences in different soft-sectored >controllers (Western Digital based chips have some formats that the 765 >based chips can't handle but are rarely used) or the basic ability to handle >FM (as in 3740 format). The difference between 1771 and 765 are that 765 only does IBM style formats FM or MFM. As a result you only supply Cylinder, Head, Record, and N a lenth encoding. The 1771 you pump every byte required for the entier track until it times out. That difference is significant as one was designed as a IBM format controller and the other was more universal. However the 765 series chip does do FM and at all data rates. Many boards for PCs limit that by not implmenting needed peices or not supporting it in the bios. So if the 765 based controller doesnt do any of the common formats (especially FM) blame the designer of the board. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 10:00:26 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:00:26 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzerinfo?)) Message-ID: <0IF100IAAOC0I4S2@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzerinfo?)) > From: Ethan Dicks >I have *hundreds* of COM5025 chips on the shelf here. Never found a >use for them. Use them to make FDC for PCs to do other formats. ;) Allison From steerex at mindspring.com Sat Apr 16 07:53:16 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:53:16 -0400 Subject: new HP-2100 collector References: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42610ABC.1369D262@mindspring.com> Tim Riker wrote: > If you've read this far and can stop drooling on your keyboard, I put > pictures up. Some of the pictures are other stuff that was there, that > the would not let me grab. > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware Sweet! From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 16 10:45:24 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:45:24 -0400 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks Message-ID: <20050416154523.WHNH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Randy, >I can send you older CDOS's that should be more memory lean. Some older >CDOS's had normal SA800 support via undocumented drive type 'X' even though >CDOSGEN only references 'S'mall & 'L'arge. That would be ideal - It would be nice if I could skip the intermediate step of making a SSSD and go straight to making the final disks. It would also eliminate the requirement to have 48k in order to transfer the final disks. I'll email you the transfer program - perhaps you can read in a version of CDOS that INITs in 32k and send it back to me. Btw, it's pretty easy to test: - Gen a CDOS for 32k - Boot it, run INIT but don't respond to the first prompt - Reset system - Enter G100 - INIT will startup again, try formatting DSDD disk and see if it works. When I try to do a DSDD disk under 32k CDOS I get: Logical disk error 03h, drive 'h', block BC7241h Under a 48k or 64k CDOS it works fine. >If you have 64K of RAM RDOS can be copied to RAM giving you access to the >full 64K allowing Larger CDOS's: Using a random address such as 1000H: > >ld hl,0C000H >ld de,2000H >ld bc,1000H >ldir >ld a,1 >out (40H),a >ld hl,2000H >ld de,0C000H >ld bc,1000H >ldir >ret > >Just use the substitute memory command to enter the above code (hex) and do >a g 1000 (a return returns to RDOS). You are now running RDOS out of RAM. >You can have one 32K CDOS and maybe a 64K CDOS to transfer. BTW you never >have to use 8080 only opcodes since RDOS & CDOS only run on Z80's. Also the >above code can go in any free space and is not address dependent. I thought about doing this - in fact, you can use the 'T' command to cause RDOS to copyitself to RAM ... but I would like to keep it running in 32k as this is more easily achieved configuration in many cases. I've put together a bit of documentation, and I have the transfer program as well as CDOS and Cromix images ready to put up, however I'm having a bit of trouble with permissions on the server (which is remote to me)... I hope I can get it resolved this weekend and get the files up. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 16 11:06:31 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:06:31 -0600 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >I'll remember that one. Though compared to serial chips many disk >controllers and their associated stuff that wraps around them >programtically are pretty horrid too. > > > Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking some feature? The only way I like to program is I/O is 'hardware" setup ... Dip switches and hard reset lines. :) >Allison > > From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Apr 16 11:37:10 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:37:10 -0400 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <200504161452.j3GEqNPx082461@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050416122827.03924718@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Marshall G. Olsen may have mentioned these words: >I am moving from a home in South West Michigan, between St. Joseph and South >Haven. I have old classic computer equipment I will give away, but will not >ship, as I do not have time to pack it. It can be picked up between Monday >April 25 and 29. I'm not interested in any of the stuff, but if someone else is and can't get there in time, I could prolly go for a road trip... If someone else wants me to snag it, it would need to be picked up in Sault Ste. Marie, MI sometime this year. >Email or call me if interested. > >I have the following: > >DG Computer with 64 K RAM, Z-80 CPU >DG Keyboard >2 Monitors that work but are not original DG Phideck with 4 drives. >External Floppy drives >Digital Group dot matrix printer. >A box of misc boards for use in the DG > >Model 33 Teletype / Model 40 Teletype > >One S-100 Computer configured to use with TurboDOS, a multi-user operating >system much like C/PM. This has a 5 MB hard drive and one 8 inch floppy >drive. I have additional software on disk for this system. It needs a minor >repair, a cable needs to be made for the controller. > >Televideo terminal, for use with the S-100 box. > >Marshall G. Olsen >molsen at runbox.com >312-498-2955 -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From cctalk at randy482.com Sat Apr 16 11:44:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:44:53 -0500 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 ProtocolAnalyzer info?)) References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <006901c542a3$a1777470$443cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "woodelf" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:06 AM > Allison wrote: > >>I'll remember that one. Though compared to serial chips many disk >>controllers and their associated stuff that wraps around them >>programtically are pretty horrid too. >> >> > Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking some > feature? > The only way I like to program is I/O is 'hardware" setup ... Dip > switches and hard reset > lines. :) > >>Allison The only serial chips that I am aware of that do not require any programming are old style dumb UARTs like the 6402 sold by Jameco. They have no fifo buffering, they are simple to use devices. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Apr 16 11:46:45 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 09:46:45 -0700 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <200504161452.j3GEqNPx082461@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000701c542a3$e0151e30$6e7ba8c0@p933> Is anyone in the neighborhood able to pick this stuff up and ship it? I'm very interested in some (most) items but can't get to Michigan from California in time. . . I'll pay for time/trouble/shipping/gas etc! Failing that, if they can just be dropped off at a FedEx Kinkos or UPS store I'll pay for that. Hey, I can dream, can't I? Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Marshall G. Olsen Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 7:53 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: free stuff I am moving from a home in South West Michigan, between St. Joseph and South Haven. I have old classic computer equipment I will give away, but will not ship, as I do not have time to pack it. It can be picked up between Monday April 25 and 29. Email or call me if interested. I have the following: DG Computer with 64 K RAM, Z-80 CPU DG Keyboard 2 Monitors that work but are not original DG Phideck with 4 drives. External Floppy drives Digital Group dot matrix printer. A box of misc boards for use in the DG Model 33 Teletype Model 40 Teletype One S-100 Computer configured to use with TurboDOS, a multi-user operating system much like C/PM. This has a 5 MB hard drive and one 8 inch floppy drive. I have additional software on disk for this system. It needs a minor repair, a cable needs to be made for the controller. Televideo terminal, for use with the S-100 box. Marshall G. Olsen molsen at runbox.com 312-498-2955 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 11:48:38 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:48:38 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 ProtocolAnalyzerinfo?)) Message-ID: <0IF1009URTCAP979@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 ProtocolAnalyzerinfo?)) > From: woodelf >Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking some >feature? >The only way I like to program is I/O is 'hardware" setup ... Dip >switches and hard reset >lines. :) What you want then is a MITS SIO-B. Has a COM2502. That generation of chips trade extreme simplicity for dip switches and loads of support chips. When I build and use serial I look at a few things: Chip count < the fewer I have to wirewrap the better> Functions I want Availability (are they in my stock) Usually I end up with 8253 countertimer as BRG and 8251, or 8250. Though the 6850 is friendly enough. I also have others to pick from like 6850, 7201, Z80SIO, 2681 and others. Allison From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 16 12:00:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:00:32 -0500 Subject: Identify this IBM box? In-Reply-To: <200504160346.39358.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20050415211925.06d57fef.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200504160346.39358.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050416120032.064af584.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 03:46:39 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 15 April 2005 21:19, Scott Stevens wrote: > > About a year ago I didn't bid on a forklift that sold at a local > > municipal auction. It sold for $2 because nobody else bid on it > > either. It needed new batteries but otherwise was probably fine. I > > Assuming this is the one I'm thinking of (in the Indianapolis > auction), I'm rather annoyed I missed bidding on it if it went for > that little. I figured it'd go for a lot more than I wanted to spend. > No, this was at a Franklin municipal auction in Johnson County, IN, about a year ago. I got three nice open 19" racks at that auction for $7. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 16 12:08:50 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:08:50 -0500 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050416120850.4590fc47.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:06:31 -0600 woodelf wrote: > Allison wrote: > > >I'll remember that one. Though compared to serial chips many disk > >controllers and their associated stuff that wraps around them > >programtically are pretty horrid too. > > > > > > > Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking > some feature? > The only way I like to program is I/O is 'hardware" setup ... Dip > switches and hard reset > lines. :) > > >Allison > > You might want to check out the 6402. I have a bunch of them from some syncronous modems I scrapped a few decades back. It has the distinction of being from the same family as the 6100 'PDP-8 on a chip' micro, and is fairly bare-bones. It has several simple registers, but much of the config is done with hardware by enabling pins and what-not. > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 12:09:48 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:09:48 -0400 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <200504161452.j3GEqNPx082461@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504161452.j3GEqNPx082461@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <426146DC.9010508@atarimuseum.com> Why are free pickups never near me... grrrrrrrrr...... Curt Marshall G. Olsen wrote: >I am moving from a home in South West Michigan, between St. Joseph and South >Haven. I have old classic computer equipment I will give away, but will not >ship, as I do not have time to pack it. It can be picked up between Monday >April 25 and 29. > >Email or call me if interested. > >I have the following: > >DG Computer with 64 K RAM, Z-80 CPU >DG Keyboard >2 Monitors that work but are not original DG Phideck with 4 drives. >External Floppy drives >Digital Group dot matrix printer. >A box of misc boards for use in the DG > >Model 33 Teletype >Model 40 Teletype > >One S-100 Computer configured to use with TurboDOS, a multi-user operating >system much like C/PM. This has a 5 MB hard drive and one 8 inch floppy >drive. I have additional software on disk for this system. It needs a minor >repair, a cable needs to be made for the controller. > >Televideo terminal, for use with the S-100 box. > > > > >Marshall G. Olsen >molsen at runbox.com >312-498-2955 > > > > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.13 - Release Date: 4/16/2005 From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Apr 16 12:11:20 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:11:20 -0400 Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050416122827.03924718@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050416122827.03924718@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42614738.2010704@atarimuseum.com> Roger, I'd love to get that DG computer... If your up for a roadtrip, I'd pay for the shipping and your gas. Curt Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Marshall G. Olsen may have mentioned these words: > >> I am moving from a home in South West Michigan, between St. Joseph >> and South >> Haven. I have old classic computer equipment I will give away, but >> will not >> ship, as I do not have time to pack it. It can be picked up between >> Monday >> April 25 and 29. > > > I'm not interested in any of the stuff, but if someone else is and > can't get there in time, I could prolly go for a road trip... If > someone else wants me to snag it, it would need to be picked up in > Sault Ste. Marie, MI sometime this year. > >> Email or call me if interested. >> >> I have the following: >> >> DG Computer with 64 K RAM, Z-80 CPU >> DG Keyboard >> 2 Monitors that work but are not original DG Phideck with 4 drives. >> External Floppy drives >> Digital Group dot matrix printer. >> A box of misc boards for use in the DG >> >> Model 33 Teletype / Model 40 Teletype >> >> One S-100 Computer configured to use with TurboDOS, a multi-user >> operating >> system much like C/PM. This has a 5 MB hard drive and one 8 inch floppy >> drive. I have additional software on disk for this system. It needs >> a minor >> repair, a cable needs to be made for the controller. >> >> Televideo terminal, for use with the S-100 box. >> >> Marshall G. Olsen >> molsen at runbox.com >> 312-498-2955 > > > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers > zmerch at 30below.com > > Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.13 - Release Date: 4/16/2005 From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 16 12:51:25 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:51:25 -0400 Subject: TI Silent 700 pin-outs? References: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> <42610ABC.1369D262@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000701c542ac$ea09dc10$0100a8c0@screamer> Does anyone have the pin-out info for a TI 743 KSR terminal? This uses a $%&*% non-standard connector! From tomj at wps.com Sat Apr 16 13:03:10 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050416110129.V678@localhost> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking some > feature? The Zilog SIO types are fine by me. The yard sale full of assorted and scattered registers is annoying, but programmers opinions don't count. It does pretty much everything required for full-featured async. At least it does what you tell it to. From andyda at earthlink.net Sat Apr 16 10:59:07 2005 From: andyda at earthlink.net (Andy Dannelley) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 08:59:07 -0700 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <76B11568-AE90-11D9-98EB-000D936E90CA@earthlink.net> > Couple of things about general AIM-lore: > > The original AIM 65 (not the AIM 65/40) had a 20 char alpha LED > display. The Aim 65/40 had a 40 character vacuum fluorescent display > and 40 character printer, much more friendly for development than the > 20 char display and printer. : I think I have heard of the AIM 65/40... if someone here knows such : things, was the motherboard re-engineered? Is it possible to retrofit : the 40-col display to the original AIM? Also, was the 40-col VFD run : by something like an HD44780 chipset, or was it some kind of raw : interface? These days, 40x1 or 40x2 VFDs based on the HD44780 are not : difficult to locate and are not all that expensive. They are also :trivial to send chars to. : -ethan The AIM 65/40 was quite different from the original AIM 65, it was really useable as a fairly powerful, though inexpensive 6502 development system. I never used one as I left consulting in 1980, but I did see one, and it appeared to be a pretty good computer. More details can be found at: http://oldcomputers.net/AIM-65-40.html which has info on the AIM 65/40 (which came in several models) and a Rockwell Design Center (which I never used) and System 65, which I did use and thought it was a very capable development system. As you can see, the AIM65/40 is a completely new board, I don't know if one could use the 40 Char display on a normal AIM 65, but I suppose you could, you would just need to write new driver software for it, maybe replace the AIM 65 ROMS with EPROMS with most of the AIM 65 OS and new drivers for the display. Could be an interesting Project, but it could compromise an otherwise vintage computer (the AIM 65) in the process. IHTH, AndyD From andyda at mac.com Sat Apr 16 12:51:38 2005 From: andyda at mac.com (Andy Dannelley) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 10:51:38 -0700 Subject: Dead AIM ^%?? In-Reply-To: <200504161704.j3GH3t33084185@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504161704.j3GH3t33084185@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2EC2F279-AEA0-11D9-B8C5-000D936E90CA@mac.com> Well, I tried the next steps, with my limited equipment, and no joy. Here's what I've tried so far, 1. visually inspect - looks OK, nothing obvious like cracked or discolored components 2. check power supply - OK 3. check voltages on board - OK 4. remove extra ROMs 5. check clock with analog VOM - did not appear stuck high or low 6. check low addess lines with analog VOM - did not appear stuck high or low 7. remove all but low order RAM 8. swap RAM to try to find if bad zero page RAM - could all 8 RAM be bad? 9. feel parts for heat - nothing extraordinary, all appeared cool to touch I have an offer of someone (he's got 6 AIMs) I can mail it to, and he said he would look at it, but if there is something I can do here I would not have to impose on him. Any more ideas, or have I reached the end of what I can do here? BTW: I am not comfortable with de-soldering and soldering, it's just been too many years. I'm out of practice. So let me know anything you think I can try (W/O solder) and I'll try. Thanks again for such a wonderful response. Later, AndyD From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 13:25:21 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:25:21 -0700 Subject: Decwriter IIIs available In-Reply-To: <42614738.2010704@atarimuseum.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050416122827.03924718@mail.30below.com> <42614738.2010704@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Anyone interested in Decwriter IIIs, KSRs. We have an auto dealership that is being auctioned today, in Astoria, Oregon. They (2) are surplus but not being sold in the auction. I can make an offer tomorrow if anyone is interested. I don't have storage so they would have to be shipped/delivered in a short time frame. There are also 3X Televideo 925 terminals and an original Reynolds and Reynolds 8 bit desktop, and a couple of ADM 5a terminals. Paxton Astoria, OR From cctech at randy482.com Sat Apr 16 13:37:31 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:37:31 -0500 Subject: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks References: <20050416154523.WHNH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <002901c542b3$65765440$e63dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Dave Dunfield" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:45 AM > Hi Randy, >>If you have 64K of RAM RDOS can be copied to RAM giving you access to the >>full 64K allowing Larger CDOS's: Using a random address such as 1000H: >> >>ld hl,0C000H >>ld de,2000H >>ld bc,1000H >>ldir >>ld a,1 >>out (40H),a >>ld hl,2000H >>ld de,0C000H >>ld bc,1000H >>ldir >>ret >> >>Just use the substitute memory command to enter the above code (hex) and >>do >>a g 1000 (a return returns to RDOS). You are now running RDOS out of RAM. >>You can have one 32K CDOS and maybe a 64K CDOS to transfer. BTW you never >>have to use 8080 only opcodes since RDOS & CDOS only run on Z80's. Also >>the >>above code can go in any free space and is not address dependent. > > I thought about doing this - in fact, you can use the 'T' command to cause > RDOS to copyitself to RAM ... but I would like to keep it running in 32k > as this is more easily achieved configuration in many cases. > > > I've put together a bit of documentation, and I have the transfer program > as well as CDOS and Cromix images ready to put up, however I'm having a > bit > of trouble with permissions on the server (which is remote to me)... I > hope I can get it resolved this weekend and get the files up. > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html The 'T' command is not available in all versions of RDOS, RDOS v1 (used on 4FDC's) didn't support it and I'm not sure when it was added. The above routine should work on all Cromemco FDC's. Cromemco's memory handling evolved as time went on. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 16 13:39:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:39:44 -0400 Subject: N8234N datasheet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050416143944.017fb8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone have a datasheet for these? I THINK they're Quad 2 input multiplexers but I'm not sure. I found them in an i8008 computer system. Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 16 13:42:04 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 11:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <32890.64.169.63.74.1113676924.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tom Jennings wrote: > Serial chips, I get post-traumatic-stress just thinking about them. Allison wrote: > I'll remember that one. Though compared to serial chips many disk > controllers and their associated stuff that wraps around them > programtically are pretty horrid too. I've been saying for years that hardware design is far too important to be left up to hardware engineers. :-) Eric From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 16 13:42:45 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:42:45 -0400 Subject: N8234N datasheet Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050416144245.017fe7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Oops! I meant to add that these are 16 pin DIP packages and appear to have been made by Signetics in the early 1980s. Does anyone have a datasheet for these? I THINK they're Quad 2 input multiplexers but I'm not sure. I found them in an i8008 computer system. Joe From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 16 14:02:39 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 12:02:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: N8234N datasheet In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050416143944.017fb8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050416143944.017fb8a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <32987.64.169.63.74.1113678159.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Joe wrote: > Does anyone have a datasheet for these? I THINK they're Quad 2 input > multiplexers but I'm not sure. I found them in an i8008 computer system. Yes. They're a bit unusual as they have two select inputs. It's the inverting open-collector version of the 8233, so you can get the complements of the A or B inputs, or 1. -----U----- A0 | 1 16 | Vcc B0 | 2 15 | A3 f0 | 3 14 | B3 f1 | 4 13 | f3 B1 | 5 12 | f2 A1 | 6 11 | B2 S1 | 7 10 | A2 GND | 8 9 | S0 ----------- Truth table: 8233/ 82S33 8234/ (totem 82S34 8235 pole) (open collector) S0 S1 fn fn fn ---- ---- ----- ----- ------- 0 0 B /B /A * B 0 1 B /B B 1 0 A /A /A 1 1 0 1 1 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Apr 16 14:09:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:09:45 +0000 Subject: Dead AIM ^%?? In-Reply-To: <2EC2F279-AEA0-11D9-B8C5-000D936E90CA@mac.com> References: <200504161704.j3GH3t33084185@dewey.classiccmp.org> <2EC2F279-AEA0-11D9-B8C5-000D936E90CA@mac.com> Message-ID: <1113678585.9863.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 10:51 -0700, Andy Dannelley wrote: > Well, I tried the next steps, with my limited equipment, and no joy. > > Here's what I've tried so far, Possible reset fault? Check connections to display logic too (PIA / 6520 / U1) - pin 1 is ground, 22, 22 and 24 should be at +5V. Pin 11 is clock, and pin 8 is the same reset line as for the CPU. I've got the schematic - it's around the size of 6 sheets of A4 so could just about scan it if you want (and can't find it on the web already). cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 16 14:06:26 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (Ben Franchuk) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 13:06:26 -0600 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050416110129.V678@localhost> Message-ID: <42616232.3030300@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > >> Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking >> some feature? > > > The Zilog SIO types are fine by me. The yard sale full of assorted > and scattered registers is annoying, but programmers opinions > don't count. It does pretty much everything required for > full-featured async. At least it does what you tell it to. Well I favor dumb chips at the moment because I don't have several MEG or EPROM to bootstrap my HOMEBREW computer.Infact I have no PROM of any kind, just toogle switches*. Since I favor a 6809 style of memory access** I am using 68B50's. I just need to finish the CPU logic design and build it. :) *The design CPLD based so I can add a SMALL bootstrap of 32 words. ** Adress and data are latched with Q. Ben alias woodelf From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Apr 16 14:34:54 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:34:54 -0400 Subject: SMS FWD 0101 disk/floppy info? Message-ID: <200504161934.j3GJYsVs019080@mwave.heeltoe.com> Hi Anyone have any info on an 8" hard drive + 8" floppy combo which appears to be an "SMS FWD 0101"? I believe this was used with a qbus system. I don't have the controller card however, just the box and a 50 pin cable :-) The floppy looks like 8" double sided. The HD is 8" (been a while since I've seen one of those). I'd love to find the mating QBUS controller card. The large card on top of the hd & floppy appears to have an 2901 and an 8085 as well as other fun chips. (I just gotta stop clicking on those blue underlined words ;-) -brad From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 15:08:29 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:08:29 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) Message-ID: <0IF200ICR2LBI7A3@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) > From: "Eric Smith" >I've been saying for years that hardware design is far too important >to be left up to hardware engineers. :-) At an interview once They asked me what kind of engineer I am? I kept it fairly simple. I design things, I fix things and sometimes I fix things others designed. Hardware and software sould never be designed in isolation, they become poor partners from their estrangement. It's a good thing have all elements on friendly terms. Then again, lifes tough enough but, then we have commercally available parts. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 15:13:40 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:13:40 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) Message-ID: <0IF200GUC2TY39A5@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) > From: Scott Stevens >You might want to check out the 6402. I have a bunch of them from some >syncronous modems I scrapped a few decades back. It has the distinction >of being from the same family as the 6100 'PDP-8 on a chip' micro, and >is fairly bare-bones. It has several simple registers, but much of the >config is done with hardware by enabling pins and what-not. ;) I have a few. They go well with 6100, 6120 and 1802 being cmos. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 16 15:16:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:16:36 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzerinfo?)) Message-ID: <0IF20094A2YUPKB9@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzerinfo?)) > From: Ben Franchuk >> The Zilog SIO types are fine by me. The yard sale full of assorted >> and scattered registers is annoying, but programmers opinions >> don't count. It does pretty much everything required for >> full-featured async. At least it does what you tell it to. They seem to. Darn things were never cheap though but being two for one made them tolerable if you needed two. >Well I favor dumb chips at the moment because I don't have >several MEG or EPROM to bootstrap my HOMEBREW computer.Infact I have >no PROM of any kind, just toogle switches*. Since I favor a 6809 >style of memory access** I am using 68B50's. I just need to finish >the CPU logic design and build it. :) I kinda liked that one to. The MITS 2SIO card used them and it worked very well. That was for 8080, works well for 8085 too. Allison From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Apr 16 15:16:39 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:16:39 -0400 Subject: Cromemco boot disk maker & images are available Message-ID: <20050416201638.TRNF20276.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I've just posted my utility which allows you to make Cromemco BOOT disk via a serial cable and RDOS to my site: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Go to the very bottom of the main page, and select "disks and images", the utility is called RT050410.ZIP (I'll think of a better name later). I've also posted CROMDISK.ZIP which contains: CDOS disk configured for dual 5.25" drives (It's easy to make an 8" disk from this) Cromix in both 5.25" and 8" formats. Please refer to the RT.TXT file enclosed for information on how it all works. NOTE: So far this has been tested and found to work on only my one Cromemco system, which is a System-3 with ZPU, 256KZ and 16FDC (plus a bunch of Tuarts, PRI and WDI boards which don't matter for this). This machine has dual Tandon 8" drives, and I've got a pair of Teac 5.25" drive attached externally ... The RDOS on the 16FDC is version 2.52 ... it is possible/likely that I have done things which may not be compatible with other versions of RDOS, please report your findings to me. I'm supposed to be picking up two more Cromemco systems next week, one of which I know has a 4FDC (I think the other is another 16FDC), so I should be able to verify/fix operation with the 4FDC shortly. If anyone happens to have a spare 64FDC, I would love to have one available so that I can get it working with the full set. Regards, Dave PS: Mike S. reports that the CDOS/INIT problem with 32k occurs only when you are running it in 64k - on a true 32k only system, he says it works OK - if you have only 32k, you may be able to skip the intermediate disk - hopefully we can dig up a version of CDOS & INIT which will resolve this little oddity. -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 16 15:20:18 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:20:18 -0400 Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <20050416120850.4590fc47.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050416120850.4590fc47.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/16/05, Scott Stevens wrote: > You might want to check out the 6402. I have a bunch of them from some > syncronous modems I scrapped a few decades back. It has the distinction > of being from the same family as the 6100 'PDP-8 on a chip' micro, and > is fairly bare-bones. It has several simple registers, but much of the > config is done with hardware by enabling pins and what-not. I have used them in the context of the FDC6120. ISTR they share a mode with the RCA 1854 that was common on 1802s. I think _all_ the setup is by grounding/pullingup pins. Handy for designs that need to have serial up and running right away, before there's time to initialize in software. -ethan From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Sat Apr 16 15:33:56 2005 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:33:56 +0200 Subject: Searching: Info about Racal-Redac Monarch In-Reply-To: References: <4260D1A7.4000301@gmx.net> Message-ID: <426176B4.60005@gmx.net> Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Gerold Pauler wrote: > >> Part of my last haul of pdp8/e equipment (more about this will follow >> when pictures are online) >> are 20 to 30 8" floppies labeled "Racal-Redac Monarch System Disks", >> etc. >> >> A quick google showed nothing relevant. Any info about this would be >> appreciated. >> >> Thanks >> Gerold >> > > Dont know about Monarch, but Racal Redac had one of the early PCB CAD > systems > though I thought they ran on PDP11's > > > Peter Wallace It seems reasonable, cause along with them and the forty something pdp8 floppies I also got over 50 pdp11 floppies. Unfortunately I don't have any experience with pdp11s but this could be a starting point. Also got a few dozend handbooks (most of them for various pdp11s). So enough to read in days to come. Just started archiving the pdp8 floppies, will dig my way through and see if I also can read the pdp11 and/or the Racal-Redac floppies. Thanks for the hint Gerold From tomj at wps.com Sat Apr 16 16:19:06 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 14:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer info?)) In-Reply-To: <42616232.3030300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050416110129.V678@localhost> <42616232.3030300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050416141318.M678@localhost> >> The Zilog SIO types are fine by me. The yard sale full of assorted >> and scattered registers is annoying, but programmers opinions >> don't count. It does pretty much everything required for >> full-featured async. At least it does what you tell it to. On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Ben Franchuk wrote: > Well I favor dumb chips at the moment because I don't have > several MEG or EPROM to bootstrap my HOMEBREW computer.Infact I have > no PROM of any kind, just toogle switches*. Since I favor a 6809 > style of memory access** I am using 68B50's. I just need to finish > the CPU logic design and build it. :) Well if we're getting nostalgic, my hands-down favorite are minicomputer programmatic interfaces. Talk about hardware-heads. Brutally simple, non-modal, wide flat registers, does DMA, error handling and makes you coffee while you wait. But instead of a PIA plus glue or whatever you get the whole TI product line and six copper layers. I guess that's what heats the coffee water. From Tim at rikers.org Sat Apr 16 16:33:05 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:33:05 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) Message-ID: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> The HP-2116A in my haul yesterday has a broken chassis: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050416_120314 A few questions: 1) does anyone have a 2116 on the list? working or otherwise? 2) The chassis sides appear to be identical. Having a cracked top would be much better than a cracked bottom. Anyone know if they are in fact identical and if it's possible to take the whole thing apart and swap the sides? Recommendations for or against? I know it would be a big project. 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? My door is missing the glass: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_131216 If/when I get the system up and running, I'd like high res scans of a front panel to recreate one. Anyone know if they panel was glass or some other material? Bob? I know your listening. ;-) -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 16 17:01:56 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:01:56 -0700 Subject: SMS FWD 0101 disk/floppy info? In-Reply-To: <200504161934.j3GJYsVs019080@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504161934.j3GJYsVs019080@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: >Hi > >Anyone have any info on an 8" hard drive + 8" floppy combo which >appears to be an "SMS FWD 0101"? > >I believe this was used with a qbus system. I don't have the controller >card however, just the box and a 50 pin cable :-) > >The floppy looks like 8" double sided. The HD is 8" (been a while since >I've seen one of those). > >I'd love to find the mating QBUS controller card. > >The large card on top of the hd & floppy appears to have an 2901 and >an 8085 as well as other fun chips. > >(I just gotta stop clicking on those blue underlined words ;-) > >-brad The odds are there isn't a Q-Bus controller, even though the system it probably came out of would have had a Q-Bus. Confused yet? :^) Is the 8" floppy by any chance a "Tandon Model TM848-2E" or "Model YD-180"? I'm guessing what you have is out of an SMS-1000 PDP-11 based computer. They had their own board for the I/O, and the Q-Bus plugged into that. You can find a few pages from the manual (everything I have) at: ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/pdp11/Some_SMS-1000.pdf Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Apr 16 17:49:26 2005 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:49:26 -0700 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> Tim Riker wrote: > 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, > silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it > attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the > panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, > but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? I think your best bet is welding. I believe that welding aluminum requires special equipment. A guy at my office does something called TIG welding for his robotics projects. I think the weld can be sunk into the material and ground smooth afterwards, giving a nice appearance. It will probably be expensive to have this done, however. A bolted on plate would work as well, though you'd probably want something on both sides, and it would probably not look as nice. Forget about adhesives -- I expect they'd be pretty worthless in this situation. If it were my machine, I'd take it around to a few good metal shops and see what they could do or would recommend. --Bill From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 16 17:50:32 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 16:50:32 -0600 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <426196B8.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> William Maddox wrote: > > Forget about adhesives -- I expect they'd be pretty worthless in this > situation. If it were my machine, I'd take it around to a few good > metal shops and see what they could do or would recommend. If you got metal shop, why not get the panel replaced and a new top cover. My worry is why is it broken in the first place? To me any damage to the case would have a major impact on the PCB's inside. > --Bill Ben alias woodelf From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 18:38:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:38:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 2100 stuff again In-Reply-To: <00b201c54232$494788b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 15, 5 10:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > Forgot to mention, the 2100A he has there also has a WCS card & connector. > > WCS is about the funnest toy to have on an HP box :) If that's what I think it is (WCS == writeable control store -> user-written microcode) then I am half jealous. Only half, because at least it's gone to a good home where it will be restored and used... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 18:30:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:30:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <08253F82-ADC2-11D9-A928-000D936E90CA@mac.com> from "Andy Dannelley" at Apr 15, 5 08:21:25 am Message-ID: > The stock AIM 65 was offered with either 1K or 4K RAM, I bought a 1K > and a guy I knew at Rockwell gave me the other 3K. That RAM wouldn't happen to be in 2114s, would it? If so, I'd suspect those early on, I've had more trouble with 2114s than with any other chip. I've lost count of the number I've replaced (certainly the RAM in my Commodore 8050, the video RAM in my TRS-80 Model 3, the RAM in my HP82163 (HPIL video interface)...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 18:47:05 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:47:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer In-Reply-To: <0IF100FWQN378Z71@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 16, 5 10:33:33 am Message-ID: > >Serial chips, I get post-traumatic-stress just thinking about > >them. > > I'll remember that one. Though compared to serial chips many disk > controllers and their associated stuff that wraps around them > programtically are pretty horrid too. The 8255 parallel interface chip was bad enough. It has an amazing mis-feature : Any write to the mode control register sets all output lines to 0's. After a reset, all lines are inputs (which was sensible, it avoids possible contentions). If you drive TTL devices from them, it's conventional to pull them high (or the TTL inputs will float high). You then write to the mode control register, configuring some lines as outputs, at which point they all go low. You then write to the output registers setting the lines to the states you want. You have to design your hardware to deal with this. Of course you also can't reverse the direction of a port under software control without clearing all the outputs. Sensible parallel chips (6821, 6522) don't do this. The output bits are not affected by writes to any other register. And those chips let you define the direction of each port line. I want to insert an 8255 up the rear end of its designer... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 18:53:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:53:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol In-Reply-To: <42613807.2050201@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 16, 5 10:06:31 am Message-ID: > Has anybody made a easy to use serial chip, all seem to be lacking some > feature? > The only way I like to program is I/O is 'hardware" setup ... Dip > switches and hard reset > lines. :) Which reminds me... The HP98036 (serial [1] interface for the 9825, 9835, 9845 computers) uses an 8251 USART. It's initially configured by dip switches on the PCB, there's a little state machine to load the right values into the 8251's registers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 16 18:56:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:56:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: 7201 (was Re: Z8530 (was Re: Navtel 9460 Protocol Analyzer In-Reply-To: <32890.64.169.63.74.1113676924.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 16, 5 11:42:04 am Message-ID: > I've been saying for years that hardware design is far too important > to be left up to hardware engineers. :-) It would be simpler if hardware engineers learnt to program (and conversely if programmers, particularly low-level programmers, had some clue about hardware...) -tony From molsen at runbox.com Sat Apr 16 19:17:07 2005 From: molsen at runbox.com (Marshall G. Olsen) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:17:07 -0600 Subject: Stuff Message-ID: <200504170016.j3H0Go9V001855@dewey.classiccmp.org> Thanks to all that replied. I gave everything away to the first person that called to pick it up except I still have model 40 teletype printer. It is a great printer for Z-80 systems, printing 400 lines a minute. If interested, CALL my cell. 312-498-2955 Marshall G. Olsen molsen at runbox.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 16 19:20:55 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 01:20:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: Tim Riker "HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum)" (Apr 16, 16:33) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <10504170120.ZM26555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 16 2005, 16:33, Tim Riker wrote: > The HP-2116A in my haul yesterday has a broken chassis: > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050416_120314 > 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, > silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it > attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the > panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, > but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? Glues aren't going to be effective at all, and you can't silver solder aluminium. It's possible to TIG weld aluminium and that might not be expensive if you know someone who has a TIG welder (they're often found in small engineering shops and car body shops). It's also possible to MIG weld aluminium, but TIG is more common and tends to give better results in my experience. If you want to try it yourself, there are various forms of aluminium solder, but most need special fluxes to cope with the oxide, they can be tricky to use (depends on the grade of aluminium, which is rarely pure, it's normally really an alloy), and not very strong. They also need a lot of heat because aluminium conducts heat away extremely well (this is also one of the problems with MIG welding it). Aluminium is often soft-soldered with a stainless steel scratch brush to remove the aluminium oxide under the solder pool, or done with an ultrasonic soldering iron (expensive -- I once nearly bought a *cheap* one for UKP300). For hard-soldering, or fusion welding really, the best stuff is Techno-Weld. It really works, and you can get it in the States as well as in the UK: http://www.techno-weld.com http://www.techno-weld.co.uk One of the basic "kits" of rods would have all you need; they also include the scratch brush, abrading wire and instructions. Or just rivet or bolt an L-shaped bracket on each side. Whatever you do, be prepared to file a bit off the broken edges to make sure it fits back together; whatever broke it probably stretched and bent it too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 16 20:22:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 18:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free stuff In-Reply-To: <200504161452.j3GEqNPx082461@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Wow, someone is about to get seriously lucky. Now, what was it I was just saying about finding anything anywhere...? On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Marshall G. Olsen wrote: > I am moving from a home in South West Michigan, between St. Joseph and South > Haven. I have old classic computer equipment I will give away, but will not > ship, as I do not have time to pack it. It can be picked up between Monday > April 25 and 29. > > Email or call me if interested. > > I have the following: > > DG Computer with 64 K RAM, Z-80 CPU > DG Keyboard > 2 Monitors that work but are not original DG Phideck with 4 drives. > External Floppy drives > Digital Group dot matrix printer. > A box of misc boards for use in the DG > > Model 33 Teletype > Model 40 Teletype > > One S-100 Computer configured to use with TurboDOS, a multi-user operating > system much like C/PM. This has a 5 MB hard drive and one 8 inch floppy > drive. I have additional software on disk for this system. It needs a minor > repair, a cable needs to be made for the controller. > > Televideo terminal, for use with the S-100 box. > > > > > Marshall G. Olsen > molsen at runbox.com > 312-498-2955 > > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 16 20:29:25 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:29:25 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <000901c542ec$e51682e0$0100a8c0@screamer> I have two 2116's, a 2116A, and a 2116C. In your position, I'd contact Larry at Crisis Computer, and arrange to get one of the parted-out 2116 hulks from his shop at a parts donor. The parts your looking for should be reasonable, I don't think there is much demand for chassis parts. >From the photo's, it looks like your core stacks are missing. Is this correct? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 5:33 PM Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > The HP-2116A in my haul yesterday has a broken chassis: > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050416_120314 > > A few questions: > > 1) does anyone have a 2116 on the list? working or otherwise? > > 2) The chassis sides appear to be identical. Having a cracked top would > be much better than a cracked bottom. Anyone know if they are in fact > identical and if it's possible to take the whole thing apart and swap > the sides? Recommendations for or against? I know it would be a big > project. > > 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, > silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it > attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the > panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, > but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? > > My door is missing the glass: > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_131216 > > If/when I get the system up and running, I'd like high res scans of a > front panel to recreate one. Anyone know if they panel was glass or some > other material? > > Bob? I know your listening. ;-) > -- > Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Apr 16 20:32:15 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:32:15 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <10504170120.ZM26555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <001301c542ed$4a08a4d0$0100a8c0@screamer> I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 8:20 PM Subject: Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > On Apr 16 2005, 16:33, Tim Riker wrote: >> The HP-2116A in my haul yesterday has a broken chassis: >> >> http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050416_120314 > >> 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, > epoxy, >> silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it >> attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the >> panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, >> but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? > > Glues aren't going to be effective at all, and you can't silver solder > aluminium. > > It's possible to TIG weld aluminium and that might not be expensive if > you know someone who has a TIG welder (they're often found in small > engineering shops and car body shops). It's also possible to MIG weld > aluminium, but TIG is more common and tends to give better results in > my experience. > > If you want to try it yourself, there are various forms of aluminium > solder, but most need special fluxes to cope with the oxide, they can > be tricky to use (depends on the grade of aluminium, which is rarely > pure, it's normally really an alloy), and not very strong. They also > need a lot of heat because aluminium conducts heat away extremely well > (this is also one of the problems with MIG welding it). Aluminium is > often soft-soldered with a stainless steel scratch brush to remove the > aluminium oxide under the solder pool, or done with an ultrasonic > soldering iron (expensive -- I once nearly bought a *cheap* one for > UKP300). > > For hard-soldering, or fusion welding really, the best stuff is > Techno-Weld. It really works, and you can get it in the States as well > as in the UK: > > http://www.techno-weld.com > http://www.techno-weld.co.uk > > One of the basic "kits" of rods would have all you need; they also > include the scratch brush, abrading wire and instructions. > > Or just rivet or bolt an L-shaped bracket on each side. > > Whatever you do, be prepared to file a bit off the broken edges to make > sure it fits back together; whatever broke it probably stretched and > bent it too. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 16 21:17:31 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:17:31 -0700 Subject: PAGING: Fred van Kempen Message-ID: <200504161917310478.021838D3@192.168.42.129> Fred? Would you please contact me when you have a moment? I've still not heard back from you as to which address you want the tape drive you got from me to go to. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 16 21:46:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 19:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool test gear Message-ID: I just checked what that GenRad box was and it's a 2610 Universal Field Tester. What the? Whatever it is, it looks complete with pods and a plug-in module in the inside compartment. Also realized I had an HP 1640B Serial Data Analyzer. Sweet debugging tools! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 16 21:52:23 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:52:23 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <007701c542f8$7e12a180$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tim wrote.... > 1) does anyone have a 2116 on the list? working or otherwise? Actually, a representative from the 2114/2115/2116 line is the only real hole in my HP collection. Someday I'll find any one of those! Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 16 21:56:59 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:56:59 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> <426196B8.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <008a01c542f9$1fcc4da0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> >My worry is why is it broken in the first place? To me any > damage to the case would have a major impact on the PCB's inside. Those are built (like most HP's) to survive a direct nuclear blast ;) I wouldn't be suprised at all if all the cards are fine. Jay From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 16 21:59:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 21:59:08 -0500 Subject: HP 2100 stuff again References: Message-ID: <009301c542f9$6c96f6d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Tony wrote... > If that's what I think it is (WCS == writeable control store -> > user-written microcode) then I am half jealous. > > Only half, because at least it's gone to a good home where it will be > restored and used... Well Tony, you may be in luck. I need to check to be sure, but I believe I have a few extra 2100 WCS boards. And yes, WCS = Writeable Control Store Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 16 22:03:01 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ebay score In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 13 Apr 2005, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Challenger 1 > > You mean a C1P or a first series Challenger? I'm not sure, I made that up :) This is the one which I know I have but can't find. It may well be a II or a 2 of some variety. > > Challenger C4P > > Superboard kit (unbuilt) > > Do you have the original packaging with it (I would guess so)? If so, > I would love to see some pictures of it. Still looking...couldn't find it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 16 22:57:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 20:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cool test gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34458.64.169.63.74.1113710220.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Sellam wrote: > I just checked what that GenRad box was and it's a 2610 Universal Field > Tester. What the? It's a tester for universal fields. Since all fields are by definition universal, it's quite useful. Sometimes (usually after I've been carrying heavy things for a while), it seems like the local portion of the gravity field has a larger than usual magnitude. If I had a universal field tester, I could find out whether it's just my imagination. Eric From Tim at rikers.org Sat Apr 16 23:29:52 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 23:29:52 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <000901c542ec$e51682e0$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <000901c542ec$e51682e0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <4261E640.1050803@Rikers.org> Bob Shannon wrote: > I have two 2116's, a 2116A, and a 2116C. > > In your position, I'd contact Larry at Crisis Computer, and arrange to get > one of the parted-out 2116 hulks from his shop at a parts donor. Good advice. I'll drop him and email. > The parts your looking for should be reasonable, I don't think there is > much demand for chassis parts. > >> From the photo's, it looks like your core stacks are missing. Is this >> correct? I recovered what I could find. I have no idea what's missing yet. any feedback is appreciated. All the cards that came in the chassis are still in there in the pictures. There are a few loose cards I found that I'm not sure which HP they were used in. A fuzzy picture of them here: Those don't look to include the cards in question. Anyone want to look through the pics and estimate what I'd need to get the box running? The existing card labels are readable on the fullsize version of: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_131245 These were removed and I have them: 2 large heatsink modules front door (minus glass over register display, missing power button) 3 fans from bottom with metalwork broken bits of chassis plus these two cards were loose (top two): http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050416_125659 labeled 02116-6014 and 02116-6015 -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 16 23:32:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 22:32:28 -0600 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <008a01c542f9$1fcc4da0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> <426196B8.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <008a01c542f9$1fcc4da0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4261E6DC.7040106@jetnet.ab.ca> Jay West wrote: >> My worry is why is it broken in the first place? To me any >> damage to the case would have a major impact on the PCB's inside. > > > Those are built (like most HP's) to survive a direct nuclear blast ;) > I wouldn't be suprised at all if all the cards are fine. > Ok Ok Ok ... I guess the PCB's are fine ... Umm Have you checked for Radiation now. :) I'm just grumbling at all the "U-Pickup only in 48 hours" systems that have appeared on this list in the last few days. Ben alias woodelf From cb at mythtech.net Sat Apr 16 23:37:29 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:37:29 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies Message-ID: I went to the Trenton Computer Fest today. I didn't get over to the MARCH table, sorry. I did see John Allain however, but down the end of a row, and by the time I got down there to say hi, I lost track of him. Back to the point. I picked up a pair of NeXT slabs for $2 each. I think even Sellam would agree that is a good price ;-) One is a Turbo the other is a Color. No idea yet was is in them other than visually, there is a floppy drive and a hard drive. I've never played with a NeXT, and at that price, I wasn't going to ask many questions. The Turbo has a DA-15 connector that looks like a Mac RGB connector. Is it compatible with Mac monitors? The Color has a connector that I don't know what it is called, but looks like a Sun monitor connector. Is it compatible with those monitors? I'm crossing my fingers for a yes on both counts since I have both available to me already. And to verify, the keyboard/mouse uses ADB correct? These slabs were just the computer, nothing else. (although I did find a guy that had a NeXT mouse, but he was holding it to sell with his MacTV and wouldn't part with it. I considered getting the MacTV, but since I got one from John a while back, I decided against spending the $50 since it didn't have any docs, software, cables, keyboard, remote, or the correct mouse). The only other thing I picked up that might be of interest to this group is some kind of video conferencing terminal. I don't know anything about it at all yet, I wasn't actually interested in it, but the guy said if I took it away right then, I could have it for free, so I took it simply because it looked cool. Over all, I was a little disappointed this year in the items available. It is only the 2nd time I've gone, the first was two years ago, and I remembered there being far more vendors with a better selection. This year was a bunch of so-so priced used PCs, TONS of old laptops, and some over priced used Macs. I was surprised I couldn't find a decent deal on a rack mount PC server, or much in the way of RJ-45 patch panels (I needed two 72 port ones, I was able to find two 48 port ones at an ok price, and that was about it). Its possible that some of the vendors just weren't there yet or fully unpacked, I was there from about 10 am to 12:30. I also didn't go indoors anywhere, so I may have missed a bunch of other dealers (I had limited time today as I had to be back home by 2, and it takes about 1.5 hours on the drive). Anyone else get anything of interest? Oh, and Hi John, since I didn't get to say it to you today. :-) -chris From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sun Apr 17 01:46:14 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 23:46:14 -0700 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> <426196B8.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <008a01c542f9$1fcc4da0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <4261E6DC.7040106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42620636.6C4D2B3D@msm.umr.edu> at least invite one if the "disposers" to try to set this one on fire if it is a magnesium frame. Should solve the problem of him disposing of another system permanently. woodelf wrote: > Jay West wrote: > > I'm just grumbling at all the "U-Pickup only in 48 hours" systems that > have appeared on this list > in the last few days. > Ben alias woodelf From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 17 05:45:16 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:45:16 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org><000901c542ec$e51682e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <4261E640.1050803@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <001301c5433a$8bd0d390$0100a8c0@screamer> On HP 2116A's and 2116B's, the core stacks are not mounted on cards (the 2116C uses the same style of core memory as does the 2100A/S). There should be one or two large blocks about five inches on a side, and perhaps four inches thick. Each block should have a set of five or six cables with hooded edge-card connections that connect to the drivers and sense amplifier boards in the top row of the chassis. The center row is the actual CPU logic, and is normally only half-populated. The bottom row is the I/O backplane and only 2 or 3 boards in that row belong to the CPU itself, the rest (16?) are for I/O cards. Many of the same I/O cards used in the 21MX class machines will work in the 2116. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Riker" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 12:29 AM Subject: Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > Bob Shannon wrote: >> I have two 2116's, a 2116A, and a 2116C. >> >> In your position, I'd contact Larry at Crisis Computer, and arrange to >> get >> one of the parted-out 2116 hulks from his shop at a parts donor. > > Good advice. I'll drop him and email. > >> The parts your looking for should be reasonable, I don't think there is >> much demand for chassis parts. >> >>> From the photo's, it looks like your core stacks are missing. Is this >>> correct? > > I recovered what I could find. I have no idea what's missing yet. any > feedback is appreciated. All the cards that came in the chassis are > still in there in the pictures. There are a few loose cards I found that > I'm not sure which HP they were used in. A fuzzy picture of them here: > > Those don't look to include the cards in question. Anyone want to look > through the pics and estimate what I'd need to get the box running? The > existing card labels are readable on the fullsize version of: > > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050415_131245 > > These were removed and I have them: > > 2 large heatsink modules > front door (minus glass over register display, missing power button) > 3 fans from bottom with metalwork > broken bits of chassis > > plus these two cards were loose (top two): > http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050416_125659 > labeled 02116-6014 and 02116-6015 > > > -- > Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org > Embedded Linux Technologist > BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 17 06:19:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:19:59 +0000 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1113736799.10716.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 16:33 -0500, Tim Riker wrote: > 1) does anyone have a 2116 on the list? working or otherwise? We've got a 2116C, if I'm remembering my models right. I've got a feeling we've got one 2115 and two 2116 machines, but I can't remember the suffix letters on each (I just know that the 2115 isn't an A) > 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, > silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it > attached with countersunk screws. Can you plate it both sides? That'd make it reasonably strong. Aluminium's supposedly a pain - you can't glue it or solder it, and welding it is also pretty tricky. Top panel - hmm.... would need to have a look at how our machine is constructed, maybe it's possible to get a replica made though. cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 17 06:26:40 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:26:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: "Bob Shannon" "Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum)" (Apr 16, 21:32) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <10504170120.ZM26555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001301c542ed$4a08a4d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <10504171226.ZM27463@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 16 2005, 21:32, Bob Shannon wrote: > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. Why? Welding magnesium alloy is done in exactly the same ways as welding aluminium, except of course that different composition filler rods are preferred. The relevant properties (strength of the base metal, electrical conductivity, melting point of the metal, high melting point of the oxide, hydrogen inclusion in the molten metal, etc) are very similar. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 17 06:54:12 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:54:12 -0400 Subject: SMS FWD 0101 disk/floppy info? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:01:56 PDT." Message-ID: <200504171154.j3HBsCh6031390@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >The odds are there isn't a Q-Bus controller, even though the system >it probably came out of would have had a Q-Bus. Confused yet? :^) >Is the 8" floppy by any chance a "Tandon Model TM848-2E" or "Model >YD-180"? I'm guessing what you have is out of an SMS-1000 PDP-11 >based computer. They had their own board for the I/O, and the Q-Bus >plugged into that. > >You can find a few pages from the manual (everything I have) at: >ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/pdp11/Some_SMS-1000.pdf That's similar, but not what I have. the backplane and disk assembly are separate. There is a very large board connected to the HD & FD, with a 2901 and 8085. This appears to connect to something on the qbus with a 50 pin cable. -brad From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 17 07:23:19 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:23:19 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies References: Message-ID: <001101c54348$3dcbcd40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I just got back from the TCF and boy are my arms tired. Hi Chris, I wasn't trying to avoid you at all, sorry I didn't see you. The MARCH group was definitely worth the visit. I went there first off in the day and I wasn't disappointed. They got a lot into the small room (Full rack PDP-8 with three different mass storage devices!). Dave.G and Bill.S are definitely pro's on the show&go circuit. I went to the flea right after, and kinda got lost there as you saw, I guess. I'll post more later, I'm a little toasted right now. My regrets? Showing up a little late (not first thing in the morning), and trying to get back to see the MARCH group *after* they had secured the building (5:20pm). Otherwise a worthwhile 14 hour day. > Anyone else get anything of interest? I should mention that there'll be a guy there today practically giving away HP 2U servers. Later... John A. From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 07:46:22 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 05:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050417124622.33212.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It did seem to be mostly PC stuff and rackmount servers, neither of which interest me particularly. I was there from about 11.00am onwards. However there were some other bits and pieces buried in amongst the new stuff. Was it me or was there a really *bad* smell in the air ? Anyway in spite of the smell I came away with quite a bit of gear. I have questions on these items which I will post separately. DEC Professional 350 ? no monitor or keyboard. When I inspected the unit at home I noticed the screws from the PSU cover are missing so I hope that doesn?t mean someone has been interfering with it. The unit is otherwise complete and appears to contain an RD51 drive (10MB) and the monochrome graphics option. I haven't tried powering it up yet - the missing screws on the PSU cover bother me enough that I want to poke around at it first before applying power. HP-9134A 5MB disc unit. These things are ancient. I have been looking for something like this to replace my HP7908 which is still languishing in the corner with power supply problems. Charles River Data Systems Universe/68 computer, badged as a Datapoint system. This is about the size of a MicroPDP-11/73 (perhaps a little fatter). In addition to the CRDS Universe subrack, the chassis houses a lot of terminal I/O ports and an 8? floppy drive on the front. There?s a SASI interface connector on the back for mass storage. Zia Tech ZT 488 GPIB Analyzer. I have had a CS/80 disc emulator project for Linux on my to-do list for some time. Perhaps this will get me moving on it. A couple of ?? tapes for my 9-track drive. Always useful. Books ? a couple of National databooks from the mid 70?s; a 1970 System/360 JCL book; a book about repairing music synthesizers and a Springer-Verlag publication ?Computer Architecture?, 1975. I passed on two Televideo 925 keyboards. I also passed on what appeared to be an IC test system. It had dozens of test cards corresponding to DTL/TTL devices of yesteryear, and a test slot where you'd presumably drop in the test chip. Looked like fine but was rather large. I forget who the manufacturer was. Regards, Dave --- chris wrote: > I went to the Trenton Computer Fest today. I didn't > get over to the MARCH > table, sorry. I did see John Allain however, but > down the end of a row, > and by the time I got down there to say hi, I lost > track of him. > > Back to the point. I picked up a pair of NeXT slabs > for $2 each. I think > even Sellam would agree that is a good price ;-) > > One is a Turbo the other is a Color. No idea yet was > is in them other > than visually, there is a floppy drive and a hard > drive. I've never > played with a NeXT, and at that price, I wasn't > going to ask many > questions. > > The Turbo has a DA-15 connector that looks like a > Mac RGB connector. Is > it compatible with Mac monitors? The Color has a > connector that I don't > know what it is called, but looks like a Sun monitor > connector. Is it > compatible with those monitors? I'm crossing my > fingers for a yes on both > counts since I have both available to me already. > > And to verify, the keyboard/mouse uses ADB correct? > These slabs were just > the computer, nothing else. (although I did find a > guy that had a NeXT > mouse, but he was holding it to sell with his MacTV > and wouldn't part > with it. I considered getting the MacTV, but since I > got one from John a > while back, I decided against spending the $50 since > it didn't have any > docs, software, cables, keyboard, remote, or the > correct mouse). > > > The only other thing I picked up that might be of > interest to this group > is some kind of video conferencing terminal. I don't > know anything about > it at all yet, I wasn't actually interested in it, > but the guy said if I > took it away right then, I could have it for free, > so I took it simply > because it looked cool. > > > Over all, I was a little disappointed this year in > the items available. > It is only the 2nd time I've gone, the first was two > years ago, and I > remembered there being far more vendors with a > better selection. This > year was a bunch of so-so priced used PCs, TONS of > old laptops, and some > over priced used Macs. I was surprised I couldn't > find a decent deal on a > rack mount PC server, or much in the way of RJ-45 > patch panels (I needed > two 72 port ones, I was able to find two 48 port > ones at an ok price, and > that was about it). Its possible that some of the > vendors just weren't > there yet or fully unpacked, I was there from about > 10 am to 12:30. I > also didn't go indoors anywhere, so I may have > missed a bunch of other > dealers (I had limited time today as I had to be > back home by 2, and it > takes about 1.5 hours on the drive). > > Anyone else get anything of interest? Oh, and Hi > John, since I didn't get > to say it to you today. :-) > > -chris > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 17 07:51:58 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 08:51:58 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <10504170120.ZM26555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001301c542ed$4a08a4d0$0100a8c0@screamer> <10504171226.ZM27463@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <000701c5434c$3f234a20$0100a8c0@screamer> Could be I have no idea what I'm talking about here. But I do know many older HP devices use magnesium rather than aluminum. As to how to weld these materials, I'm no expert. But I'd rather not hear that the machine, and the shop that attempted the repair had been reduced to ashes. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 7:26 AM Subject: Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > On Apr 16 2005, 21:32, Bob Shannon wrote: >> I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. >> >> Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. > > Why? Welding magnesium alloy is done in exactly the same ways as > welding aluminium, except of course that different composition filler > rods are preferred. The relevant properties (strength of the base > metal, electrical conductivity, melting point of the metal, high > melting point of the oxide, hydrogen inclusion in the molten metal, > etc) are very similar. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 17 07:53:06 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:53:06 -0500 Subject: SMS FWD 0101 disk/floppy info? In-Reply-To: <200504171154.j3HBsCh6031390@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504171154.j3HBsCh6031390@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <42625C32.6040402@mdrconsult.com> Brad Parker wrote: >>You can find a few pages from the manual (everything I have) at: >>ftp://ftp.avanthar.com/pub/pdp11/Some_SMS-1000.pdf > > > That's similar, but not what I have. the backplane and disk assembly > are separate. > > There is a very large board connected to the HD & FD, with a 2901 and > 8085. This appears to connect to something on the qbus with a 50 pin > cable. I wonder if that matches the SMS Unibus controller I have. Quad-wide, P/N FD-1100I, not documented anywhere I can find. One 50-pin and two 34-pin headers. Warning - fairly large image: http://www.docsbox.net/11-04/DSC00079.jpg Doc From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 08:06:51 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 06:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video Message-ID: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have a couple of questions - and requests for assistance - for some of the items I picked up this weekend from TCF. My other post to the list details what there are. Here goes: - HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000 side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it. I am trying to determine whether the light on the front of the ST506 inside should be on or not once the drive comes up to speed or whether it only comes on when that HBIB address is being accessed. Any hints ? - Universe/68: Operating system for the Charles River Data Systems Universe/68 anyone ? I understand these machines used to run UNOS. It would be fun to try to boot this thing. Also - any background information on the machine itself would be of interest. - I'd like to use a surplus VT420 as the display for the DEC 350 Pro I picked up. This will entail identifing a point on the VT420 schematic where I can inject the composite video signal from the 350. So I need the VT420 schematic. Does anyone on the list have one ? - manual or operating notes for the Zia Tech ZT 488 ? I can probably figure this one out but documentation is always welcome. Thanks as always for the list's help. Regards, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 17 08:48:48 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 14:48:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: "Bob Shannon" "Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum)" (Apr 17, 8:51) References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <10504170120.ZM26555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <001301c542ed$4a08a4d0$0100a8c0@screamer> <10504171226.ZM27463@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <000701c5434c$3f234a20$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <10504171448.ZM27674@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17 2005, 8:51, Bob Shannon wrote: > Could be I have no idea what I'm talking about here. > > But I do know many older HP devices use magnesium rather than > aluminum. As to how to weld these materials, I'm no expert. > > But I'd rather not hear that the machine, and the shop that attempted > the repair had been reduced to ashes. Agreed :-) To be quite honest, although welding would be the neatest solution short of finding a replacement chassis, I'd just buy a couple of those L-shaped brackets used for reinforcing woodwork, and rivet them onto the frame. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 17 09:32:26 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 07:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <001301c542ed$4a08a4d0$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. Listen to the man (with an emphasis on "spectacular" in the true sense of the word). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 17 10:01:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:01:02 +0000 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 07:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. > > Listen to the man (with an emphasis on "spectacular" in the true sense of > the word). Don't know about welding the stuff, but ISTR a website recording someone's efforts to get a magnesium-cased NeXT to burn - quite the opposite of spectacular to be honest. (the page was put up well after the fact, and it was a few years ago that I saw it - no idea of a URL( From mokuba at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 10:04:09 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:04:09 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R Message-ID: I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has one, anyone at all, I'd love to hear from you! (External especailly, but I can swap drives in an external housing if needed, I guess) -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG - FM19t From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 17 10:15:00 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:15:00 +0000 Subject: HP CRT mould update Message-ID: <1113750900.10734.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Just for info, following up on a discussion a while back :) I've just removed the faceplate on the CRT for an HP 250 that was suffering from the dreaded mould. Used a bit of resistance wire as someone here had suggested, and it was a remarkably easy job. Took about ten mins to make it all the way across the CRT (although I was only running from a 10V DC supply - I expect there's a lot of scope for increasing the voltage without risk of damaging the CRT) The sealant stuff pretty much just peels straight off the front of the CRT / rear of the faceplate once the two are separated. A knife blade, not water, and washing detergent shifted the rest and cleaned everything up. I'm not sure about trying to re-seal it; that could go horribly wrong and leave air bubbles trapped in there. Not even sure what stuff to use. Padding the faceplace out as necessary right at the edges (where it won't be visible when everything's back together) is probably the best course of action and it'll look as good as new when back together. Next interesting task will be getting the paint off the 250's console desk though - seems like when they were scrapped someone just went around with a spray-can and put big X's on anything that was being disposed of... cheers Jules From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Sun Apr 17 09:49:27 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:49:27 +1100 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050418014927.00910790@pop-server> At 06:06 AM 4/17/05 -0700, you wrote: >- Universe/68: Operating system for the Charles River >Data Systems Universe/68 anyone ? I understand these >machines used to run UNOS. It would be fun to try to >boot this thing. Also - any background information on >the machine itself would be of interest. I seem to remember having some UNOS related 8 inch floppies around here somewhere. No idea if any are bootable, or if there were it's the same UNOS that runs on the Universe/68. If they're of any use to you I'll see if I can find them. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 17 10:54:30 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:54:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: Vintage Computer Festival "Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum)" (Apr 17, 7:32) References: Message-ID: <10504171654.ZM27899@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17 2005, 7:32, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. > > Listen to the man (with an emphasis on "spectacular" in the true sense of > the word). Probably not, actually. It's hard to get the stuff to burn, and it might well collapse under its own weight before you got it all that hot, at which point you'd probably remove the hot flame and emit a few hot words instead ;-) [1] Yes, the ignition temperature of some magnesium alloys is below the melting point, but you need an *awful* lot of heat to make it catch, not just a high local temperature. You also need an awful lot of heat to sustain it -- remember it dissipates heat readily -- and you need oxygen[2] to keep it going. Under normal welding conditions, the inert gas used for TIG/MIG excludes the oxygen (that's the whole point of the method) and the heat is highly localised, and other techniquesuse much lower temperatures. TIG welding of mag alloys is quite commonplace, and most items of magnesium alloy you'll come across are heat treated during manufacture, at high temperatures. This is not something you can do at home with a paraffin (kerosene) blowlamp, it's usually done in ovens in an inert atmosphere, but it's nevertheless standard procedure. If you want to know just how hard it is to burn a mag alloy chassis, take a look at Simson Garfinkel's infamous webpage at http://simson.net/photos/hacks/cubefire.html and note how much gas it took to cause even sporadic ignition. It was a pile of molten slag by the time it caught. Disclaimer: if you do have an enormous blowtorch, don't blame me if you set your workshop on fire. However, if you have such a blowtorch, you can do that more easily without the magnesium alloy :-) And if you do set a magnesium alloy chassis alight, there's not much will put it out. For small fires, copious water (not a spray) to deluge it is sometimes used, but common practice, I'm told, is to protect the surroundings and let the metal burn out. There's at least one firefighter on the list who might know more about that than I do. [1] Yes, I found out the hard way when trying to repair something. [2] Or more usually air. However, once the reaction gets going, magnesium is sufficiently reactive to burn in carbon dioxide or nitrogen, stripping the oxygen from CO2 leaving soot behind, or forming magnesium nitride. Standard school chemistry demonstration. That's why MIG/TIG for aluminium and magnesium (and their alloys) use pure argon instead of cheaper gasses. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Apr 16 14:55:57 2005 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:55:57 -0400 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? Message-ID: <01C5429C.ED3DAA20@H87.C223.tor.velocet.net> -----------------Original Message: Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 01:53:07 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Dead AIM 65?? >On 4/15/05, Andy Dannelley wrote: >> First, Thanks for all the helpful suggestions! >You are welcome. >> Couple of things about general AIM-lore: >> >> The original AIM 65 (not the AIM 65/40) had a 20 char alpha LED >> display. The Aim 65/40 had a 40 character vacuum fluorescent display >> and 40 character printer, much more friendly for development than the >> 20 char display and printer. >I think I have heard of the AIM 65/40... if someone here knows such >things, was the motherboard re-engineered? Is it possible to retrofit >the 40-col display to the original AIM? Also, was the 40-col VFD run >by something like an HD44780 chipset, or was it some kind of raw >interface? These days, 40x1 or 40x2 VFDs based on the HD44780 are not >difficult to locate and are not all that expensive. They are also >trivial to send chars to. >-ethan ---------------Reply: The /40 was considerably different; bank-switched memory, intelligent display & printer, different keyboard etc. (Also more than twice the price of a /20). Both the display & the printer had their own microprocessor (6504) and could be mounted off-board. See Interactive Issue # 5 for a preview (on Rich's site). Also see issue # 8 for a description of the "official" Rockwell case. There were also larger cases to house the /20 or /40 along with its expansion card cage. There was an application note (R6500 N12) describing how to build a video interface (including the software listing) and it even references Lancaster's TVT Cookbook! Those were the heady days of OEM support... If you have trouble finding a display maybe that's the answer; just stick it inside an old monitor or terminal. BASIC & the editor are 80 (79) column capable BTW. I did indeed find some extra display covers; I'll be in touch with you (Ethan) & Jules off-list. mike From james at attfield.co.uk Sat Apr 16 18:14:41 2005 From: james at attfield.co.uk (Jim Attfield) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 00:14:41 +0100 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 20, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <200504161705.j3GH3t3B084185@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: If you hit T from an RDOS prompt it will enable the upper 32K, copy itself to 0xC000 and re-issue the prompt. I'm not quite sure where the stack goes, perhaps K still works to kick the stack. Not sure if this also works on a 4FDC Jim Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 00:04:20 -0500 > From: "Randy McLaughlin" > Subject: Re: Some said they have CDOS and Cromemco disks > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <003b01c54241$c76faf60$023dd7d1 at randylaptop> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > That's great! I can make a few suggestions: > > I can send you older CDOS's that should be more memory lean. Some older > CDOS's had normal SA800 support via undocumented drive type 'X' > even though > CDOSGEN only references 'S'mall & 'L'arge. > > If you have 64K of RAM RDOS can be copied to RAM giving you access to the > full 64K allowing Larger CDOS's: Using a random address such as 1000H: > > ld hl,0C000H > ld de,2000H > ld bc,1000H > ldir > ld a,1 > out (40H),a > ld hl,2000H > ld de,0C000H > ld bc,1000H > ldir > ret > > Just use the substitute memory command to enter the above code > (hex) and do > a g 1000 (a return returns to RDOS). You are now running RDOS out of RAM. > You can have one 32K CDOS and maybe a 64K CDOS to transfer. BTW you never > have to use 8080 only opcodes since RDOS & CDOS only run on > Z80's. Also the > above code can go in any free space and is not address dependent. > > > Remind people of my favorite mantra: 3.5" drives with DD media will be > happy to act as 5.25" DD drives. > > > Randy From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Apr 17 09:15:15 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:15:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> <42619676.9020403@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <27936.195.212.29.83.1113747315.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > Tim Riker wrote: > >> 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, >> silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it >> attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the >> panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, >> but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? > > I think your best bet is welding. I believe that welding aluminum > requires special equipment. A guy at my office does something called > TIG welding for his robotics projects. It is indeed TIG welding. You strike an arc between two tungsten electrodes, shielded by an inert gas. Hence, Tungsten Inert Gas welding. > I think the weld can be sunk > into the material and ground smooth afterwards, giving a nice > appearance. It will probably be expensive to have this done, however. Not sure about cost. In all welding, the weld should penetrate right through the metal, otherwise it's just a snottery blob on top that won't hold anything. It should be possible to grind the weld flush without weakening it. Gordon. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Apr 17 11:09:45 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:09:45 -0500 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200504171109.46110.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 17 April 2005 08:06, David Comley wrote: > - I'd like to use a surplus VT420 as the display for > the DEC 350 Pro I picked up. This will entail > identifing a point on the VT420 schematic where I can > inject the composite video signal from the 350. So I > need the VT420 schematic. Does anyone on the list have > one ? First off, before you go around modifying VT420s, you may want to test the Pro first. The 'composite' output of the machine nicely matches NTSC (RS-170) composite signal specs, so you can hook the output directly to a TV with a composite input. Beware that the TV will overscan the signal a bit, but you should see *something* when you first power up the Pro to indicate that it's at least somewhat functional. As far as the VT420 schematics, I don't have any, but you might try finding a VT220 to use, or a professional NTSC video monitor. I've got a few of each and would probably try those first... the VT220 isn't too different from the VR201 that should go with the Pro, and is probably easier to modify (it even has the composite video output on its back, so you might be able to trace what to do without schematics event). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 17 11:19:32 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:19:32 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:01 AM Subject: Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 07:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > > > > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. > > > > Listen to the man (with an emphasis on "spectacular" in the true sense of > > the word). > > Don't know about welding the stuff, but ISTR a website recording > someone's efforts to get a magnesium-cased NeXT to burn - quite the > opposite of spectacular to be honest. (the page was put up well after > the fact, and it was a few years ago that I saw it - no idea of a URL( > > Pure magnesium ignites at 476 C and burns at 2200 C so if the case is pure enough (doubtful, additives change the burning properties) and you get it hot enough then good luck trying to put the fire out. From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 11:41:59 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 09:41:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050417164159.35451.qmail@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Patrick Finnegan wrote: > First off, before you go around modifying VT420s, > you may want to test > the Pro first. Yes, the Pro is a complete unknown quantity at the moment. My suspicions about someone messing with the power supply were confirmed when, after removing the already-unscrewed top cover I found a nice green jumper cable across what was left of the fuseholder. I think I will take my time on this one. Perhaps I should make sure I have a fire extinguisher handy as well. > The 'composite' output of the > machine nicely matches > NTSC (RS-170) composite signal specs, so you can > hook the output > directly to a TV with a composite input. Beware If I can ever get the thing to power up I have an old portable TV upstairs I could use - no composite input but I do have an RF modulator I bought years ago. Perhaps that will work. And the VT420 I had in mind needs to be repaired anyway since it screeches at me when I turn it on, so perhaps that's not the best approach. Thanks for the advice. Regards, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide From pspan at amerytel.net Sun Apr 17 12:02:12 2005 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:02:12 -0500 Subject: SMS FWD0101 Message-ID: <000901c5436f$3327bbc0$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hello, The Stomberg Carlson DCO switches used to use that combo and were based on a dec 11/23. I believe I have controllers and Documentation for the SMS Drives. If you would like to to try and dig up the info and parts That I have available, let me know. Phil From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 17 12:01:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:01:18 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) Message-ID: <0IF3001ACOM65762@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net >> I think your best bet is welding. I believe that welding aluminum >> requires special equipment. A guy at my office does something called >> TIG welding for his robotics projects. > Aluminum can be direct welded but it's harder to do and many shops will resort to TIG as it gives cleaer results. Once you alloy magnesium more than 25% with anything ti's tendancy to burn like a torch drops ways off. I've done most Aluminum alloys using TIG and the preferd torch is the single arc (Arc to work) and the prefered gas either argon or helium. When done with He the process gets called heliarc. I've done both. In both cases you need a TIG rig and inert gas. Many welding shops worth their salt can do this. But often charge by the hour for a one off. It helps of you've done all the prep so they can hook up and go. A good TIG weld should require minimal refinishing to look good. Don't forget a lot of trucks and trailers these days have a lot of Aluminum and they do get repairs so the skills are out there. Due to costs, I'd seriously first try to fine a stripped chassis first. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 17 12:13:56 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <1113750900.10734.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > I've just removed the faceplate on the CRT for an HP 250 that was > suffering from the dreaded mould. Used a bit of resistance wire as > someone here had suggested, and it was a remarkably easy job. Took > about ten mins to make it all the way across the CRT (although I was > only running from a 10V DC supply - I expect there's a lot of scope for > increasing the voltage without risk of damaging the CRT) > > The sealant stuff pretty much just peels straight off the front of the > CRT / rear of the faceplate once the two are separated. A knife blade, > not water, and washing detergent shifted the rest and cleaned everything > up. Jules, Thanks for the info. Did you save any of the affected scraps to have analyzed by a biologist or something? I don't know if you know anyone over there who would do it for cheap or free but I know someone over here who can. Are you certain it was a mold eating at the sealant or was it, as someone else put forth, a simple delaminating affect which caused the round spots to appear when the faceplate was pried away from the CRT? Until some of this gets actually analyzed and confirmed as a mold or fungus then I won't fully rely that it in fact is such. > I'm not sure about trying to re-seal it; that could go horribly wrong > and leave air bubbles trapped in there. Not even sure what stuff to use. > Padding the faceplace out as necessary right at the edges (where it > won't be visible when everything's back together) is probably the best > course of action and it'll look as good as new when back together. If you don't introduce some sort of filler you might have a shadow or annoying opitcal affect. Possibly. > Next interesting task will be getting the paint off the 250's console > desk though - seems like when they were scrapped someone just went > around with a spray-can and put big X's on anything that was being > disposed of... Gasoline (or petrol as you might want to call it :) is supposed to be able to dissolve spraypaint without affecting the underlying paint. Also, a naptha solvent should work but only if used carefully (don't apply directly, apply to a cloth, and work it very lightly and slowly). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From andyda at earthlink.net Sun Apr 17 12:12:26 2005 From: andyda at earthlink.net (Andy Dannelley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:12:26 -0700 Subject: Dead AIM 65 Message-ID: > The stock AIM 65 was offered with either 1K or 4K RAM, I bought a 1K > and a guy I knew at Rockwell gave me the other 3K. : That RAM wouldn't happen to be in 2114s, would it? If so, I'd suspect : those early on, I've had more trouble with 2114s than with any other : chip. I've lost count of the number I've replaced (certainly the RAM in : my Commodore 8050, the video RAM in my TRS-80 Model 3, the RAM in my : HP82163 (HPIL video interface)...) : -tony Yep, the RAM is 2114! I swapped the zero page RAM with others in several configurations. Out of 8 RAM how many would you suspect as bad? Could it be all 8, or a significant number such that getting just the right 2 for zero page wold be difficult, maybe I should buy at least a couple just to hope I get 2 good ones to try?! Thanks, AndyD From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 17 12:21:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:21:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <0IF3001ACOM65762@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Allison wrote: > Don't forget a lot of trucks and trailers these days have a lot of > Aluminum and they do get repairs so the skills are out there. And motorcycle shops. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Apr 17 12:37:19 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:37:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: "Teo Zenios" "Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum)" (Apr 17, 12:19) References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> Message-ID: <10504171837.ZM28122@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 17 2005, 12:19, Teo Zenios wrote: > Pure magnesium ignites at 476 C and burns at 2200 C so if the case is pure > enough (doubtful, additives change the burning properties) and you get it > hot enough then good luck trying to put the fire out. That temperature is for powder or dust. It's much higher for bulk solid magnesium, normally quoted as 625C or thereabouts, though lower than its melting point (648C). There are various factors that affect ignition temperature. See for example: http://www.netl.doe.gov/coolscience/res_archive/q&a_36.html http://www.eh.doe.gov/techstds/standard/hdbk1081/hbk1081c.html and for common alloys: http://www.parkwayproducts.com/thixomolding/engineering_data.html Oh, and for some more pictures of what happens when it does burn, and how hard it is to make that happen: http://www.theodoregray.com/PeriodicTable/Stories/012.2/ By the way, titanium dust and grit is worse than magnesium dust; when turning titanium you're supposed to use water-based collant to avoud ignition risk -- but it's only a few months ago I had my titanium spectacle frames welded back together. Aluminium too; damp aluminium dust will spontaneously ignite (another standard school chemistry demo, it used to be mixed with iodine to produce purple smoke) and its bulk ignition temperature is lower than that of magnesium's, but I've seen its auto-ignition temperature quoted as high as 780C. I suppose the reason I've replied to so many of the posts about this is that people remember seeing magnesium ribbon burning in school chemistry classes, but Real Life ain't like the science lab. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 17 12:48:02 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32950.64.169.63.74.1113760082.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Gary wrote: > I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has Plextor has been making SCSI burners, and SCSI readers that can handle CD-R and CD-RW, for many years. Shouldn't be hard to find. Most SCSI CD-ROM drives can read CD-R, but early ones can't read CD-RW due to the low contrast ratio of the media. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 17 12:47:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:47:46 -0600 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> Message-ID: <4262A142.7040904@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: >Pure magnesium ignites at 476 C and burns at 2200 C so if the case is pure >enough (doubtful, additives change the burning properties) and you get it >hot enough then good luck trying to put the fire out. > > How about just throwing a PIG on it instead ... :) The point here is if the shop will weld it is safe to do so. Ben alias woodelf. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Apr 17 13:08:40 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 17 Apr 2005 19:08:40 +0100 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1113761320.4277.15.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 22:33, Tim Riker wrote: > 3) Thoughts on repairing the chassis? I could bondo, superglue, epoxy, > silversolder, etc. the pieces together, and add a plate behind it > attached with countersunk screws. Would not be very visible once the > panels are put back. I have the two side panels and the bottom panel, > but no top panel. Thoughts on which would work best? Not sure if someone's already suggested it, but you could try a place that does mag/alloy wheel repairs (that is, proper engineering repairs not polishing!) Race wheels tend towards pure mag. (I won't go into how one of our director's speciality was to put an old magnesium wheel in the middle of the bonfire...) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 13:09:04 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:09:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 47 In-Reply-To: <200504171714.j3HHCiIv010904@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050417180904.87736.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I went to Trenton too, I missed those two NextStations... I heard about them from the guy who had the MacTV and watched it being sold. I think it finally went for less than $50.00. There wasn't much there. I barely spent anything. I think I spent more on food from the food stand than I did on stuff. The only thing I got there, that I couldn't have gotten from a regular show, was a LaserXT computer. Which is an Apple IIc Sized Computer (Actually built into a case used for the Laser IIc Clone) that is an IBM XT Compatible. For $5.00, I got the unit alone. One Floppy drive and the manual. No software, no power supply (I believe it uses a IIc power supply, which should be easy to scrounge up), and unknown condition or RAM. Once I get a powersupply for it, it should be fun to power it up. Hopefully the 5 1/4 disks I've still got, are working and I can boot from them. But not much else... As someone else said, lots of PC stuff, overpriced beige Macs, and some Russian Vendor selling Blue and White G3's for $100 that everyone said to stay far away from. One vendor in the back had tons of tubes, so anyone there looking for tubes would have had a ball... The kids from the college made out like bandits selling sodas and t-shirts to raise money for their clubs. I brought $150.00 with more available from local ATM's and I think I spent less than $50.00 ($15.00 of which being the admission.) I did however, get a nice sunburn... I was hoping to see a TRS-80 Model I or III (or my holy grail an LNW-80), some NextStations (which I missed), maybe an Amiga 500 or an Atari ST, or assorted peripherals. I didn't see ANY Tandy stuff there. Not a Model 100, Coco of any type, Tandy 1000 or anything... I saw one vendor with an MC-10 Ram Pack, and that was it. A Commodore Plus/4 was there, but no C-64/Vic-20/C-128's... Or any peripherals. No Ataris, of any type... Including the VCS. Mostly PC, and the most Mac I've EVER seen at a TCF. Though this flea was about 1/5 the size of the show in it's heyday... If last year was like this, I'm not so sorry now I missed it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 17 13:11:21 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:11:21 +0000 Subject: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113761481.10716.57.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 10:13 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > I've just removed the faceplate on the CRT for an HP 250 that was > > suffering from the dreaded mould. Used a bit of resistance wire as > > someone here had suggested, and it was a remarkably easy job. Took > > about ten mins to make it all the way across the CRT (although I was > > only running from a 10V DC supply - I expect there's a lot of scope for > > increasing the voltage without risk of damaging the CRT) > > > > The sealant stuff pretty much just peels straight off the front of the > > CRT / rear of the faceplate once the two are separated. > Thanks for the info. Did you save any of the affected scraps to have > analyzed by a biologist or something? Hmm, nope - but they're just in the bin outside (contained within the newspaper on which I was working) so if someone does know someone I could retrieve a piece... > Are you certain it was a mold eating at the sealant Actually, there was no obvious mould as such on this one - it seemed more like the sealant had turned to liquid in some places (visible as 'puddles' behind the glass), whilst in others it seemed to have crystalised into small hard lumps (giving the visible white spots) So, no sign of visible mould - I wonder if the dark spots sometimes seen are maybe some form of optical effect; trapped bubbles as you say rather than being something physically dark in colour. Our other HP 250 display shows far more signs of the dark 'mould' spots, so maybe I'll give that one a go now that I know the procedure works. > > I'm not sure about trying to re-seal it; that could go horribly wrong > > and leave air bubbles trapped in there. Not even sure what stuff to use. > > Padding the faceplace out as necessary right at the edges (where it > > won't be visible when everything's back together) is probably the best > > course of action and it'll look as good as new when back together. > > If you don't introduce some sort of filler you might have a shadow or > annoying opitcal affect. Possibly. Hmm, good point. Initially I think we're just going for a static display anyway, because there are more pressing projects to sort out than this machine - so it won't be an issue until someone has time way down the line to actually restore the machine to working condition. Maybe I should try this same procedure on one of our HP terminals that have the same problem though, then I can mess around with fillers on those (or see how well it works without). > > Next interesting task will be getting the paint off the 250's console > > desk though - seems like when they were scrapped someone just went > > around with a spray-can and put big X's on anything that was being > > disposed of... > > Gasoline (or petrol as you might want to call it :) is supposed to be able > to dissolve spraypaint without affecting the underlying paint. Interesting, I'll give that a try on a test area somewhere - luckily the spray painters missed the built-in keyboard area! Mainly worried about whatever I use to remove the paint damaging the underlying console table material... cheers Jules From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Apr 17 13:19:03 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:19:03 -0700 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504171119030492.05888DB2@192.168.42.129> You've had trouble? I've encountered several that have not the slightest problem with CD-R's. Most notably, those from Toshiba and Sony. Happy hunting. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 17-Apr-05 at 11:04 Gary Sparkes wrote: >I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has >one, >anyone at all, I'd love to hear from you! (External especailly, but I can >swap drives in an external housing if needed, I guess) >-- >Gary G. Sparkes Jr. >KB3HAG - FM19t -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 17 13:48:53 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:48:53 +0000 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 11:04 -0400, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! There's nothing special about the drive mechanism for SCSI CD reading devices by the way (compared to say IDE) - I've never known one that *won't* read CD-Rs, but just like IDE and laptop drives, it depends a lot on the quality of the CD-R media used in the first place. I've used Sony / Panasonic / Plextor drives before, as well as Apple- branded ones - never had any trouble reading media that was burned properly in the first place and is of decent quality. I've got Pioneer and Toshiba SCSI CDROM drives in this machine - as well as an HP Surestore burner - and don't recall ever having media troubles there either. cheers Jules From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Apr 17 14:19:16 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:19:16 -0400 Subject: HP CRT mould update References: <1113761481.10716.57.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <003201c54382$59d778b0$0100a8c0@screamer> Someone on the list asked me to send them samples from my Imlac restoration. I've got the email saved here somewhere.... I even bagged up some samples that have not been 'melted off' with a wire, but I've not gotten them packed to ship just yet (my 'shipping department has a huge backlog). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 2:11 PM Subject: Re: HP CRT mould update > On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 10:13 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> > I've just removed the faceplate on the CRT for an HP 250 that was >> > suffering from the dreaded mould. Used a bit of resistance wire as >> > someone here had suggested, and it was a remarkably easy job. Took >> > about ten mins to make it all the way across the CRT (although I was >> > only running from a 10V DC supply - I expect there's a lot of scope for >> > increasing the voltage without risk of damaging the CRT) >> > >> > The sealant stuff pretty much just peels straight off the front of the >> > CRT / rear of the faceplate once the two are separated. > >> Thanks for the info. Did you save any of the affected scraps to have >> analyzed by a biologist or something? > > Hmm, nope - but they're just in the bin outside (contained within the > newspaper on which I was working) so if someone does know someone I > could retrieve a piece... > >> Are you certain it was a mold eating at the sealant > > Actually, there was no obvious mould as such on this one - it seemed > more like the sealant had turned to liquid in some places (visible as > 'puddles' behind the glass), whilst in others it seemed to have > crystalised into small hard lumps (giving the visible white spots) > > So, no sign of visible mould - I wonder if the dark spots sometimes seen > are maybe some form of optical effect; trapped bubbles as you say rather > than being something physically dark in colour. > > Our other HP 250 display shows far more signs of the dark 'mould' spots, > so maybe I'll give that one a go now that I know the procedure works. > >> > I'm not sure about trying to re-seal it; that could go horribly wrong >> > and leave air bubbles trapped in there. Not even sure what stuff to >> > use. >> > Padding the faceplace out as necessary right at the edges (where it >> > won't be visible when everything's back together) is probably the best >> > course of action and it'll look as good as new when back together. >> >> If you don't introduce some sort of filler you might have a shadow or >> annoying opitcal affect. Possibly. > > Hmm, good point. Initially I think we're just going for a static display > anyway, because there are more pressing projects to sort out than this > machine - so it won't be an issue until someone has time way down the > line to actually restore the machine to working condition. > > Maybe I should try this same procedure on one of our HP terminals that > have the same problem though, then I can mess around with fillers on > those (or see how well it works without). > >> > Next interesting task will be getting the paint off the 250's console >> > desk though - seems like when they were scrapped someone just went >> > around with a spray-can and put big X's on anything that was being >> > disposed of... >> >> Gasoline (or petrol as you might want to call it :) is supposed to be >> able >> to dissolve spraypaint without affecting the underlying paint. > > Interesting, I'll give that a try on a test area somewhere - luckily the > spray painters missed the built-in keyboard area! Mainly worried about > whatever I use to remove the paint damaging the underlying console table > material... > > cheers > > Jules > > From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Apr 17 15:05:00 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:05:00 +0100 Subject: Data General books available in the UK References: <006b01c5427d$0f813b80$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <008f01c54388$bced2ac0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> These have now gone. Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Beacon" To: "Classic computer list" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 1:08 PM Subject: Data General books available in the UK > Hi, > > after a visit to the local tip this week, I have a few Data General books > available (no computer though :-(). > > Data General Interface Designer's Manual for Nova and Eclipse line computers > > and the following EMI books detailing the system and programming of the DG > machine coupled to a medical scanner: > > Scintron 3 camera diagnostic softwares > Scintron 3 service manual > Scinticamera detector head NE8900 & NE8960 > IO tester for eclips processor Parts A & B > Nova 3 Exerciser test (N3EXS) > Eclipse microcode flowchart > Eclipse basic instruction ROMS and Decoding > Nova 3 Multi-Programming Rel (SH) (N3MORT03) > > a number of these seem to be re-bindings of the equivalent DG publication. > > They cost me a beer for the lot, yours for the cost of postage (and a beer > if your feeling generous :-)) > > Jim. > > (weight is around 6lbs for the lot) > Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Apr 17 15:09:14 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:09:14 -0400 Subject: SMS FWD0101 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Apr 2005 12:02:12 CDT." <000901c5436f$3327bbc0$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Message-ID: <200504172009.j3HK9ExE017342@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Phil Spanner" wrote: >Hello, > >The Stomberg Carlson DCO switches used to use that combo and were based on a >dec 11/23. I believe I have controllers and Documentation for the SMS >Drives. If you would like to to try and dig up the info and parts That I >have available, let me know. Yes, please. I can't seem to find anything on the web. I'd be interested in anything docs you have. I'd also be interested in a qbus or unibus (or both :-) controller. thanks! -brad From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Apr 17 15:33:47 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:33:47 +0100 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: In message <1113763733.10734.66.camel at weka.localdomain> Jules Richardson wrote: > There's nothing special about the drive mechanism for SCSI CD reading > devices by the way (compared to say IDE) - I've never known one that > *won't* read CD-Rs, but just like IDE and laptop drives, it depends a > lot on the quality of the CD-R media used in the first place. I've had the same experience. IME Taiyo Yuden and Verbatim DatalifePlus CDRs are about the best. I've never had a Verbatim CDR misread in any CD-ROM. Watch out though - the "Datalife" CDRs are cheap crap - rebranded CMC Magnetics floor-scrapings. The DatalifePlus discs are made by Mitsubishi Chemical (or one of their subcontractors) and tend to be far more reliable. I've just ordered 100 of them from www.svp.co.uk. "I liked them so much, I bought a crate full" Of course, now I've said that, someone's probably going to say something along the lines of "I bought 2,000 and they were ALL faulty"... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Documentation is for people who can't read. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Apr 17 15:46:21 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:46:21 +1200 Subject: HP CRT mould update References: <1113750900.10734.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <067201c5438e$838389e0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 3:15 AM Subject: HP CRT mould update snip > > I'm not sure about trying to re-seal it; that could go horribly > wrong > and leave air bubbles trapped in there. Not even sure what stuff to > use. > Padding the faceplace out as necessary right at the edges (where it > won't be visible when everything's back together) is probably the > best > course of action and it'll look as good as new when back together. I just did the edge thing with sealant for the 9845 CRT I did a couple of years back-looks fine, although I did have the same reservations initially. It probably depends on the 'darkness' of the faceplate whether a filler is needed or otherwise. I left a gap about 20 cm long top and bottom just in case I had trapped any moisture etc in there, but should go back (bugger of a job just getting at the CRT in the 9845) and seal it up some day when it's fairly warm. DaveB, Christchurch, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 16/04/2005 From bear at typewritten.org Sun Apr 17 15:54:31 2005 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 13:54:31 -0700 Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29e579342c8c07592fc851ae185ecf25@typewritten.org> On Apr 16, 2005, at 9:37 PM, chris wrote: > The Turbo has a DA-15 connector that looks like a Mac RGB connector. Is > it compatible with Mac monitors? The DA15 is for DSP I/O. The monitor port is a DF19; you must use the monochrome NeXT MegaPixel monitor (N4000, N4000A, N4000B) on this machine. All the human interface logic is in the monitor; it's where the keyboard plugs in. > The Color has a connector that I don't know what it is called, but > looks like a Sun monitor connector. Is it > compatible with those monitors? I'm crossing my fingers for a yes on > both > counts since I have both available to me already. You're in a little better shape with the Color. You need the SoundBox, which houses the HCI logic that would normally be in the monochrome monitor, and Y-cable which splits out the video and HCI signals, and connects them to the appropriate device. Once you have that, you can use any number of multiscanning monitors with it. The original specification on the NeXT Megapixel 17" color monitor is 1120x832 @ 68Hz (the turbo does 72Hz) with composite sync on green. A Sun monitor isn't likely to work on any NeXTstation because of the sync-on-green thing; an SGI monitor is likely to work instead. The connector is a DB13W3. > And to verify, the keyboard/mouse uses ADB correct? These slabs were > just > the computer, nothing else. SOME NeXT machines can use ADB. You need a NeXT with ROM revision v.74 minimum, as well as either the N4000B monochrome monitor or the ADB SoundBox (s/n ADD.....), as well as the ADB monitor cable (part numbers 4534 or 4535) or an ADB soundbox cable (part number 4536). The ADB cables can be used with a non-ADB system as well; the reverse is not true. I do not know if the power key on a Macintosh ADB keyboard can be used to power on a NeXT, which may mean you would have no way to turn the machine on or off without a NeXT keyboard, ADB or no. None of my NeXTs support ADB, so I can't try it. The NeXT ADB parts are visually distinct from the non-ADB parts; the ADB keyboard has round 'chicklet' type keys for the power/volume/brightness buttons , whereas the non-ADB parts have regular keytops. Additionally, the power key on the ADB keyboard is solid in color and bright green whereas the power key on the non-ADB keyboard is black with green legending. The ADB mouse is known as "the batarang", as it is round with trapezoidal buttons flaring dramatically out the top. It is quite obviously different from the traditional rectangular slab that is the non-ADB mouse. Hope this helps. ok bear From Tim at rikers.org Sun Apr 17 16:11:57 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:11:57 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <001301c5433a$8bd0d390$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <42618491.9040108@Rikers.org><000901c542ec$e51682e0$0100a8c0@screamer> <4261E640.1050803@Rikers.org> <001301c5433a$8bd0d390$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <4262D11D.3080303@Rikers.org> Bob Shannon wrote: > On HP 2116A's and 2116B's, the core stacks are not mounted on cards > (the 2116C uses the same style of core memory as does the 2100A/S). I'm still learning about this old machine. ;-) > There should be one or two large blocks about five inches on a side, > and perhaps four inches thick. Each block should have a set of five > or six cables with hooded edge-card connections that connect to the > drivers and sense amplifier boards in the top row of the chassis. Ahh. yes, two cubish boxes on top/back of the main chassis?: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050417_001441 Remember the original pic was inverted. I found the machine upside down due to the cracked chassis. > The center row is the actual CPU logic, and is normally only > half-populated. sounds about right, here is is right side up: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050417_003545 anything missing that you can see? A1, A11, A14, A109-12, A114 being empty are ok? My A12 has a small cosmetic rip. thoughts on bonding the board back together? What do folks do to repair the board clips? My dma-word-count fell apart just by touching it lightly. I'm probably using all the wrong terminology. Docs would help. ;-) > The bottom row is the I/O backplane and only 2 or 3 boards in that > row belong to the CPU itself, the rest (16?) are for I/O cards. Many > of the same I/O cards used in the 21MX class machines will work in > the 2116. I put the 2 boards that were loose (power regulators?) back in the chassis, but have not put the 2 large heatsink modules in. They are missing the fans that used to be on the bottom of each module. http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware/20050417_085251 I really need manuals for this beast now. I didn't see any online. Anyone have electronic versions of the documentation? please? ;-) I'd be willing to scan and pdf paper manuals if anyone has them to loan. please? ;-) Also interested in anyone that might have a working HP-2020 mag tape drive. I think mine is missing quite a few componets. On opening the chassis, I noticed that the lower guide pin slider on my cabinet is missing. Also the connects have threaded sockets that look like they used to have some kind of a spring loaded pin mechanism. Both of mine are empty. Does the 2116A support 110v power? The power connect is a 220/240 style. I see in the sales brocure for the 2116B that is supports either, but I don't have docs for the 2116A yet. hint, hint... ;-) I keep posting new stuff in the gallery. Feel free to browse. Isn't this better than what's on TV anyway? ;-) http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 17 16:35:04 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:35:04 +0100 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <008801c54395$53014f30$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jules Richardson wrote: > There's nothing special about the drive mechanism for SCSI CD > reading devices by the way (compared to say IDE) - I've never > known one that *won't* read CD-Rs, but just like IDE and > laptop drives, it depends a lot on the quality of the CD-R > media used in the first place. My SCSI RRD40 has had problems reading some CD-Rs and (IIRC) absolutely will not read CD-RWs at all. I'm not that surprised as I expect that RRD40s were long out of production well before CD-Rs became popular. I've used to have some issues with an RRD42 and CD-RWs too. So there are certainly drives that are marginal with CD-Rs. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 12:32:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:32:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <10504171226.ZM27463@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 17, 5 12:26:40 pm Message-ID: > > On Apr 16 2005, 21:32, Bob Shannon wrote: > > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. > > Why? Welding magnesium alloy is done in exactly the same ways as Presumably because of the erroneous idea that magnesium is highly flammable, and other (common) metals aren't. The wire filling in the old-type flashbulbs was rarely magnesium, actually. More common were aluminium/magnesium alloys, or even just aluminium... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 17 12:26:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:26:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <008a01c542f9$1fcc4da0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 16, 5 09:56:59 pm Message-ID: > > >My worry is why is it broken in the first place? To me any > > damage to the case would have a major impact on the PCB's inside. > > Those are built (like most HP's) to survive a direct nuclear blast ;) I > wouldn't be suprised at all if all the cards are fine. No, they're built like HP _used to be_ -- to withstand a nuclear blast. Modern HP stuff seems to fall apart if you look at it wrongly... I've had HP machines were edge connectors were broken due to the cards being force in all directions when the case was mangled. The cards themselves are fine... -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Apr 17 16:55:23 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:55:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > There's nothing special about the drive mechanism for SCSI CD reading > devices by the way (compared to say IDE) - I've never known one that > *won't* read CD-Rs, but just like IDE and laptop drives, it depends a > lot on the quality of the CD-R media used in the first place. I have two Pioneer SCSI CD changers: a DRM-600 and a DRM-604. The DRM-600 is the older of the two, but will read CD-R media just fine. The newer DRM-604 won't read ANY of my CD-Rs, no matter what media was used. Go figure. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us The Dixie Lion Jazz Band http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/dixie.html The B9 Robot Builders Club B9-0014 http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/B9/ Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cb at mythtech.net Sun Apr 17 16:57:28 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:57:28 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 47 Message-ID: >and some Russian Vendor selling Blue and >White G3's for $100 that everyone said to stay far >away from. He was asking $150 each on those when I was there. I went back today, and most of the pile was gone. I didn't ask how much they were down to. I'd have considered one if they dropped below $35, but it wasn't important enough to me to ask. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Sun Apr 17 17:10:00 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:10:00 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies Message-ID: >Hope this helps. Thanks for the info. -chris From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Apr 17 17:07:24 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:07:24 +0200 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> Message-ID: <20050417220724.GG1702@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Apr 17, 2005 at 12:19:32PM -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2005 11:01 AM > Subject: Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) > > > > On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 07:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > > > > > > > I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. > > > > > > > > Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. > > > > > > Listen to the man (with an emphasis on "spectacular" in the true sense > of > > > the word). > > > > Don't know about welding the stuff, but ISTR a website recording > > someone's efforts to get a magnesium-cased NeXT to burn - quite the > > opposite of spectacular to be honest. (the page was put up well after > > the fact, and it was a few years ago that I saw it - no idea of a URL( > > > > > > Pure magnesium ignites at 476 C and burns at 2200 C so if the case is pure > enough (doubtful, additives change the burning properties) and you get it > hot enough then good luck trying to put the fire out. No need to worry - trying to get a magnesium case to burn is _hard_ work, es evidenced when some misguided individual tried to get an empty NeXTCube case to burn: http://simson.net/photos/hacks/cubefire.html Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 17 17:22:33 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Phil wrote: > Watch out though - the "Datalife" CDRs are cheap crap - rebranded CMC > Magnetics floor-scrapings. Floor scrapings are the only kind CMC Magnetics makes. TDK CD-Rs used to be Taiyo-Yuden, which is the best. I routinely bought them at Costco. One day I had a spindle of which nearly 50% of the discs were bad, and checking the ATIP data, they were CMC Magnetics. I've never bought TDK CD-R media since. I can only guess that some bean counter at TDK refused to pay for T-Y when CMCM is so much cheaper. Possibly TDK has switched to something else by now, but I'll never find out first-hand. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 17 17:24:36 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:24:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <008801c54395$53014f30$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <008801c54395$53014f30$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <33431.64.169.63.74.1113776676.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Antonio wrote: > I've used to have some issues with an RRD42 and CD-RWs too. > So there are certainly drives that are marginal with CD-Rs. Only fairly early drives have problems with CD-Rs. Problems with CD-RW lasted much longer, because they're much further from the CD-ROM spec (very low contrast ratio). To this day, some CD-ROM drives have trouble with CD-RW, though not nearly as many as used to. Eric From news at computercollector.com Sun Apr 17 17:25:13 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:25:13 -0400 Subject: Rescue in Wisconsin Message-ID: <200504172224.j3HMOcOj014695@dewey.classiccmp.org> -----Original Message----- From: Gil Carrick [mailto:gilcarrick at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:55 PM To: news at computercollector.com Subject: Rare Items looking for a home I was contacted this week by Larry Metzler of Green Bay, Wisconsin. He is looking for a home for an IBM 513 reproducer and a 405 accounting machine. It is too far away for me. Anybody interested should contact Larry at 800-270-7725. Tell him I sent you. Gil A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director The Museum at CSE University of Texas at Arlington Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 17 17:27:02 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 15:27:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <20050417220724.GG1702@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> <20050417220724.GG1702@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <33457.64.169.63.74.1113776822.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Alex wrote: > No need to worry - trying to get a magnesium case to burn is _hard_ Actually, it's very easy. You just grind it up into powder first. Time-consuming, but not particularly difficult. Eric From williams.dan at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 17:26:56 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:26:56 +0100 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a64050417152622ddbd5b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/17/05, Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has one, > anyone at all, I'd love to hear from you! (External especailly, but I can > swap drives in an external housing if needed, I guess) > -- > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG - FM19t > > What machine are you talking about ?, Do you mean a 512k block size ie. Dec, Sun, mac etc. I've found it a bit hit and miss as far as reading cd-rs Dan From news at computercollector.com Sun Apr 17 17:27:50 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 18:27:50 -0400 Subject: Another rescue, in Calgary Message-ID: <200504172227.j3HMRDtu014750@dewey.classiccmp.org> _____ From: Garry B [mailto:garryb at hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 11:12 PM To: news at computercollector.com Subject: Toshiba T3200 Have a functional T3200 computer I no longer want/need wondering if it can be posted on your website or listed in your newsletter. I reside in Calgary Alberta Canada. regards Garry Beutler 403-275-5425 Cell/Voice Mail 403-630-9003 From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Apr 17 18:01:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050417152622ddbd5b@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a64050417152622ddbd5b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33628.64.169.63.74.1113778872.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Dan wrote: > What machine are you talking about ?, Do you mean a 512k block size > ie. Dec, Sun, mac etc. That's 512 *byte* block size, not K. As opposed to the normal 2048 byte (2K) block size. Macs do not need 512 byte block CD-ROM drives. Only older non-PC workstations and servers normally need that. A lot of Toshiba drives had a jump to configure the drive for 512 byte blocks. Eric From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 17 18:12:25 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:12:25 -0400 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <4262ED59.1050903@mdrconsult.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 07:32 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>On Sat, 16 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: >> >> >>>I think the actual frame here is magnesium alloy, not aluminum. >>> >>>Any attempt to weld this might be spectacularly bad idea. >> >>Listen to the man (with an emphasis on "spectacular" in the true sense of >>the word). > > > Don't know about welding the stuff, but ISTR a website recording > someone's efforts to get a magnesium-cased NeXT to burn - quite the > opposite of spectacular to be honest. (the page was put up well after > the fact, and it was a few years ago that I saw it - no idea of a URL( Pure magnesium burns like a mother******, but it's rarely used as structural material. Most magnesium alloys burn well when powdered or as shavings, but then so will pure iron. A magnesium-aluminum alloy is very unlikely to be dangerously volatile, even at welding temperatures. The oxidation properties of both metals make those alloys a bitch to weld, though. Doc From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Sun Apr 17 18:35:37 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:35:37 +0100 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: In message <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel at 64.169.63.74> "Eric Smith" wrote: > Floor scrapings are the only kind CMC Magnetics makes. Amen to that. I had one a CMCMag disc delaminate inside a rather expensive CD recorder. Thankfully they didn't I did call the company I bought the discs from to request a refund - they refused on the grounds that it was more than 7 days since I bought the discs. Mentioning the Sale of Goods Act only resulted in the sales rep hanging up on me. I gave up and used the discs as coasters - it's about all they're good for. > TDK CD-Rs used > to be Taiyo-Yuden, which is the best. I'm viciously protective of my "secret stash" of T-Y CDRs. I've got half a dozen left and I still haven't found anywhere that sells them in spindle packs (or jewel cased for that matter). SVP have got packs of 100 shrink-wrapped for a bit over ?20, but past experience with shrinkwrapped CDs suggests they're going to be scratched to hell by the time I get them open. My first pack of CDRs (after the CMCs) was a pack of TDK Reflex discs (ATIP checked as "TDK Corp"). They were damn near perfect - even now, four years on, there aren't any data errors on them. Then I bought a pack of ten and ended up with CMCs... > I can only guess that some bean counter at TDK > refused to pay for T-Y when CMCM is so much cheaper. Possibly TDK has > switched to something else by now, but I'll never find out first-hand. Same here. They still make their own DVD-RWs (Media ID on mine was "TDKsakuM3") but they outsource CDR manufacture to CMC. I've been buying the Verbatim DLPs for ages and never had a bad burn. They also seem to take Pressit labels quite well (certainly better than the TDKs). No, I don't use Pressit labels on my backup CDs - I've got a water-based CD marker to label those. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI Nothing can go wroff001010 bus error: core dumped From jesnyder at iastate.edu Wed Apr 13 22:19:17 2005 From: jesnyder at iastate.edu (John E Snyder) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2005 22:19:17 -0500 Subject: "Antique" Apple II e Computer, Manuals, Books Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050413220907.02f78750@jesnyder.mail.iastate.edu> Greetings While doing some housecleaning, I re-discovered an old Apple II e computer (with monitor, disk drive, and keyboard), and a big box of software, manuals, and books for it. I am not a home computer hobbyist (just a computer user) and have no use for it, but it would seem a shame to just throw all the stuff into the dumpster. I am not really trying to sell it or anything, just see that it gets to someone who is interested in it. How can I find if there is someone interested in it, who I could give it to? Thanks for your help, John jesnyder at iastate.edu (515)-294-4312 (university) (515)-232-8824 (home) From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Apr 17 18:44:47 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:44:47 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4262F4EF.6020802@mdrconsult.com> Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has one, > anyone at all, I'd love to hear from you! (External especailly, but I can > swap drives in an external housing if needed, I guess) The *only* SCSI drive I've ever had that wouldn't read CD-Rs was an external HP. Don't remember the model, but it was a 2x-4x reader. Even my old Macintosh external, may it RIP, would read CD-Rs. Nobody else has mentioned it, but most older (4x or slower) readers will hurl on a multisession or an "open" CD-R. Burn your CDs single-session, and be sure to close them. If your hardware will do DAO burns, that's always the best bet. Doc From alhartman at yahoo.com Sun Apr 17 19:05:04 2005 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 17:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Power Supply for Laser XT Computer In-Reply-To: <200504171714.j3HHCiIv010904@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050418000504.55352.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Well... The power Adapter for my Apple IIC isn't compatible with the Laser 128. It needs +/- 5V and +/- 12V. Does anyone have such a power supply, or know where I could get one? Thanks! Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide From allain at panix.com Sun Apr 17 19:42:40 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:42:40 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies References: Message-ID: <009b01c543af$87729b60$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Round 2... > Over all, I was a little disappointed this year in the items available. > It is only the 2nd time I've gone, the first was two years ago, and I > remembered there being far more vendors with a better selection. The TCF may be slowly shrinking, but I'm looking forward to Edison/Raritan next year, they seemed to have the set-up going verry smoothly there. ...and it didn't smell, like David noted. Important consideration with these markets: the mainstream is 5yo home machines and 10yo business servers. Anything outside of that is hit-or-miss. On Topic Finds this year. My first 10bFL equipment: transcievers from AUI and cables. DLT-IV tapes for 75? each. DEC brand SCSI cables and 10b2 terminators. A TZ-857 DLT stacker in external enclosure for $25. One of those little DDS stackers. Not bought were decent old books, reel-tapes or some ASCII terminals. Yeah, I did get some of the recent stuff. > I was surprised I couldn't find a decent deal on a rack mount PC > server, Wow, what was wrong with those dual PII/PIII ones in the pickup truck? They had dual ethernet, dual RS-232, Ultra SCSI, were tested right in front of the purchaser, and started at $40. Highway robbery (and OT I realize). But they seemed rather "pre-Carly". John A. From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun Apr 17 19:48:26 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:48:26 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <1113785306.27983.4.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> I know this isn't CD related, and is probably off-topic, but FWIW.. http://www.videohelp.com/dvdmedia Is a useful URL if your trying to compare burnable DVD media, and want to see who actually makes the media your considering buying.. Too bad they don't have something similar for CD-R's.... David From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 17 20:05:23 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:05:23 -0400 Subject: Power Supply for Laser XT Computer In-Reply-To: <20050418000504.55352.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200504171714.j3HHCiIv010904@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050418000504.55352.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 4/17/05, Al Hartman wrote: > Well... > > The power Adapter for my Apple IIC isn't compatible > with the Laser 128. > > It needs +/- 5V and +/- 12V. > > Does anyone have such a power supply, or know where I > could get one? One could take a bog-standard AT supply and fit a Laser 128 cable. Such things were commonly done for the A500 because the stock supply couldn't run a full machine, mem expansion, disk drive, multiple floppies, etc. -ethan From cb at mythtech.net Sun Apr 17 20:06:48 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:06:48 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies Message-ID: >> I was surprised I couldn't find a decent deal on a rack mount PC >> server, > >Wow, what was wrong with those dual PII/PIII ones in the pickup truck? >They had dual ethernet, dual RS-232, Ultra SCSI, were tested right >in front of the purchaser, and started at $40. Highway robbery (and OT >I realize). But they seemed rather "pre-Carly". Nothing was wrong with them. Somehow I managed to miss them!!! I went back today based on your statement that there would be someone with them cheap... I found the guy, and realized that I never saw him Saturday. I don't know how, and I'm kind of annoyed that I didn't see him. I got a good deal on a pair of them. 2u, dual p2 400 MHz with dual 9.1 GB scsi drives, $40 each. His Saturday price was $55 each for the same setup, and I would have happily paid the extra $15 each to avoid the drive a 2nd time (in fact, these units cost me MORE then the saved $30 combined between tolls, gas, and my time). So I'm happy now as I can replace my tower server and get it into my rack, and replace 3 other machines acting as web and FTP for a series of domains with a single one of these rack servers. Thanks for the heads up that he was there. -chris From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Apr 17 20:11:46 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 19:11:46 -0600 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <42630952.3040508@jetnet.ab.ca> Philip Pemberton wrote: >I'm viciously protective of my "secret stash" of T-Y CDRs. I've got half a >dozen left and I still haven't found anywhere that sells them in spindle >packs (or jewel cased for that matter). SVP have got packs of 100 >shrink-wrapped for a bit over ?20, but past experience with shrinkwrapped CDs >suggests they're going to be scratched to hell by the time I get them open. > > Forget scratching ... shirk wrap still SHRINKS over time... warped disks will be the problem. Ben alias woodelf From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 17 20:21:37 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:21:37 -0500 Subject: Rescue in Wisconsin In-Reply-To: <200504172224.j3HMOcOj014695@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504172224.j3HMOcOj014695@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050417201901.04b89e60@mail> Wow. Old stuff. Released in 1934. Frank da Cruz's page says "The 405 was IBM's flagship product until after World War II." http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/405.html - John At 05:25 PM 4/17/2005, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: Gil Carrick [mailto:gilcarrick at comcast.net] >Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2005 10:55 PM >To: news at computercollector.com >Subject: Rare Items looking for a home > >I was contacted this week by Larry Metzler of Green Bay, Wisconsin. He is >looking for a home for an IBM 513 reproducer and a 405 accounting machine. >It is too far away for me. Anybody interested should contact Larry at >800-270-7725. Tell him I sent you. > >Gil > >A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director >The Museum at CSE >University of Texas at Arlington >Department of Computer Science & Engineering Box 19015, 471 S Cooper Street >Arlington, TX 76019 817-272-3620 http://www.cse.uta.edu/TheMuseum at CSE/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 17 20:22:28 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:22:28 -0500 Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <20050417124622.33212.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20050417124622.33212.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <42630BD4.6090706@oldskool.org> David Comley wrote: > Was it me or was there a really *bad* smell in the air Sure it wasn't ozone? (ducking) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Apr 17 20:55:14 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:55:14 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <42631382.9000304@oldskool.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm viciously protective of my "secret stash" of T-Y CDRs. I've got half a > dozen left and I still haven't found anywhere that sells them in spindle > packs (or jewel cased for that matter). SVP have got packs of 100 > shrink-wrapped for a bit over ?20, but past experience with shrinkwrapped CDs > suggests they're going to be scratched to hell by the time I get them open. Have you tried meritline.com? I order my T-Y media from them all the time and haven't had a problem: http://www.meritline.com/taiyo-yuden-cdr-cd-r-blank-media-disc-discs.html -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Apr 17 21:24:06 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:24:06 -0500 Subject: Dead AIM 65?? In-Reply-To: <01C5429C.ED3DAA20@H87.C223.tor.velocet.net> References: <01C5429C.ED3DAA20@H87.C223.tor.velocet.net> Message-ID: <20050417212406.0cef04ea.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 15:55:57 -0400 M H Stein wrote: > -----------------Original Message: > Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2005 01:53:07 -0400 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Dead AIM 65?? > > >On 4/15/05, Andy Dannelley wrote: > >> First, Thanks for all the helpful suggestions! > > >You are welcome. > > >> Couple of things about general AIM-lore: > >> > >> The original AIM 65 (not the AIM 65/40) had a 20 char alpha LED > >> display. The Aim 65/40 had a 40 character vacuum fluorescent > >display> and 40 character printer, much more friendly for development > >than the> 20 char display and printer. > > >I think I have heard of the AIM 65/40... if someone here knows such > >things, was the motherboard re-engineered? Is it possible to > >retrofit the 40-col display to the original AIM? Also, was the > >40-col VFD run by something like an HD44780 chipset, or was it some > >kind of raw interface? These days, 40x1 or 40x2 VFDs based on the > >HD44780 are not difficult to locate and are not all that expensive. > >They are also trivial to send chars to. > > >-ethan > > ---------------Reply: > The /40 was considerably different; bank-switched memory, intelligent > display & printer, different keyboard etc. (Also more than twice the > price of a /20). > > Both the display & the printer had their own microprocessor (6504) > and could be mounted off-board. > > See Interactive Issue # 5 for a preview (on Rich's site). Also see > issue # 8 for a description of the "official" Rockwell case. There > were also larger cases to house the /20 or /40 along with its > expansion card cage. > > There was an application note (R6500 N12) describing how to > build a video interface (including the software listing) and it even > references Lancaster's TVT Cookbook! Those were the heady days > of OEM support... > > If you have trouble finding a display maybe that's the answer; > just stick it inside an old monitor or terminal. BASIC & the editor > are 80 (79) column capable BTW. > > I did indeed find some extra display covers; I'll be in touch with you > (Ethan) & Jules off-list. > Just to add to the AIM-65 lore on here- I am presently working contract at a place that used to use AIM-65 hardware for industrial QA testing purposes. I may very soon be hired there as a permanent employee. At that time I'll probably sweep around the place and see if there is any AIM-65 info, manuals, etc. that I can borrow or outright take, to contribute to whatever document archive is appropriate. (It's harder to do things like that when you're just a contractor at the place with a tenuous relationship) I don't know for sure that there's anything there, but one of the old timers in the test lab was reminiscing recently about the 'old days' using AIM-65 systems with narrow printout paper to gather data and control tests. Just thought it was interesting enough to mention here. This is also the place that I mentioned awhile back that still has a Commodore SX-64 in use on a test station. The good news is that if I am hired at the position I'm after, I'll be the person in direct use of said system. It's a place that makes refridgeration valves and controls, among other things. I KNOW that there are Commodore-related materials and info in the facility, I've spied the manuals and disks for a C-64 C compiler on a bookshelf. Will keep the list posted on anything more that I find out. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Apr 17 21:32:33 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:32:33 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050417213233.17de67ad.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 11:04:09 -0400 Gary Sparkes wrote: > I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has > one, anyone at all, I'd love to hear from you! (External especailly, > but I can swap drives in an external housing if needed, I guess) > -- I've not had any problem reading CD-Rs in SCSI CDROM drives that I've salvaged from old Power Macintoshes. I've installed a number of them in Sparc Ultra 1 boxes and had no problem installing NetBSD and Solaris off the drives, which I had burned to CD-R media for said purpose. If you're really _desperate_ for a drive like that, I have a pile of them and will sell you a couple for $2 each plus shipping. I'm sure if you're not geographically close to me (midwest United States) you will have no trouble at all getting your own used Apple CDROM drive. Anything from the early-PCI Mac era will work, i.e. a drive from a 7200/7300/7500 Power Mac. -Scott > Gary G. Sparkes Jr. > KB3HAG - FM19t > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 17 19:52:41 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:52:41 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:06 AM 4/17/05 -0700, you wrote: >I have a couple of questions - and requests for >assistance - for some of the items I picked up this >weekend from TCF. My other post to the list details >what there are. Here goes: > >- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but >doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000 >side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it. I don't know about the 64000 but the HP9000 200s and 300s display a list of drives during bootup. Does the 64000 do that and does it show the drive? On a 200 or 300 if you press any key druing boot it will stop the system from booting an OS but it will go through the search for drives and display a list of drives and OSs. Defective drives will frequently fail to show up in the list or will be reported as bad. The list should look like this . >I am trying to determine whether the light on the >front of the ST506 inside should be on or not once the >drive comes up to speed or whether it only comes on >when that HBIB address is being accessed. Any hints ? Is this one of the old wide biege units or one of the newer square white ones? If it's a white one, disconnect it from the computer and then turn it on. It will run a selftest and the fault light should go off within about 40 seconds. If it says on then the unit is bad! The access light will blink when the unit is accessed and I THINK it blinks during the selftest. If the unit passes selftest then the drive is almost certainly good and your fault is elsewhere. I don't know if the old biege unit has the same lights and operates the same way or not. let me know what you find out. > >- Universe/68: Operating system for the Charles River >Data Systems Universe/68 anyone ? I understand these >machines used to run UNOS. It would be fun to try to >boot this thing. Also - any background information on >the machine itself would be of interest. > >- I'd like to use a surplus VT420 as the display for >the DEC 350 Pro I picked up. This will entail >identifing a point on the VT420 schematic where I can >inject the composite video signal from the 350. So I >need the VT420 schematic. Does anyone on the list have >one ? > >- manual or operating notes for the Zia Tech ZT 488 ? >I can probably figure this one out but documentation >is always welcome. I have a couple of those cards and I'm pretty sure that I have the manual and software SOMEWHERE but I have no idea if I can find it. If you ind them from another source, let me know. > >Thanks as always for the list's help. > >Regards, > >Dave > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! >http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide > From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Sun Apr 17 22:24:39 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 23:24:39 -0400 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5766828959&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT looks like Guy S. sold a PDP11/55 for 5K! is that really the going rate? wow! Don't want to start the old "Ebay ~is~ the market" thread up again... but on a technical note - the listing claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of the blinkenlights machines made by DEC.. Is that true? I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ faster? How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and cache? Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? h From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Apr 17 23:34:04 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:34:04 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <42630BD4.6090706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Jim Leonard wrote: > David Comley wrote: > > Was it me or was there a really *bad* smell in the air > > Sure it wasn't ozone? (ducking) There was a "old gentleman" there who (at one time at least) had some electronics knowledge. Unfortunately, he seemed to be no longer completely in possession of his faculties. One thing in particular was a _VERY_ apparent lack of regard for any hygiene. He was only there Sunday, but he wandered in and out of the room several times leaving a malodorous and lasting wake. More on all of the positive things later... Going to bed now, Bill From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Apr 17 23:38:45 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:38:45 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <200504172138.45691.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 17 April 2005 20:24, Heinz Wolter wrote: --snip-- > Don't want to start the old "Ebay ~is~ the market" thread up again... but > on a technical note - the listing claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of > the blinkenlights > machines made by DEC.. Is that true? > > I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but > add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ faster? > How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and > cache? > Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. McNamara), Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation Page 408 -------- Model Basic Instructions Floating Point Inst. per second* Inst. per second ------------------------------------------- 11/70 36 671 11/55 41 725 * Relative to 11/03 No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Apr 17 23:48:11 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:48:11 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <200504172138.45691.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> <200504172138.45691.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <200504172148.11770.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 17 April 2005 21:38, Lyle Bickley wrote: Oops, just noticed minor typo - Page 406 > Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. > McNamara), Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation > > Page 408 > -------- > > Model Basic Instructions Floating Point > Inst. per second* Inst. per second > ------------------------------------------- > 11/70 36 671 > 11/55 41 725 > > * Relative to 11/03 > > No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. > > Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 18 00:00:13 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:00:13 -0400 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> <200504172138.45691.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c543d3$8190d440$3a92a8c0@maggie> snipe Lyle wrote: > > I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but > > add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ faster? > > How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and > > cache? > > Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? > > Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. McNamara), > Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation > Page 408 > -------- > Model Basic Instructions Floating Point > Inst. per second* Inst. per second > ------------------------------------------- > 11/70 36 671 > 11/55 41 725 > * Relative to 11/03 > No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. sigh - I haven't memorized the DEC sacred texts yet;) no hardcopy, only pdf... So the 55 is roughly 14% faster than 70 - probably due to main memory timing. This might not be the case with the PEP70, though it's not stock. Interesting that the FP is only 8% faster - given that they are likely similarly microded and memory would not be such an issue working out of the FP registers. Clock speed? Then again... if one put 2 MW of 300ns ram on a 70.. well the 55 was only 18 bit address ;) Anybody know the microclock frequency of both models? Variable timing/phase? This variable microclock trick was later used in Vax/750 hot wiring kits.. On a similar vein, wasn't the 11/34c clock slowed to allow for cache timing, making it slower than a 34A? (for uncached accesses) Is is this a possible reason for the 70's poor performance? Running code withing the cache should have beaten the 55! h From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 18 00:16:30 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 22:16:30 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <00eb01c543d3$8190d440$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200504172138.45691.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <00eb01c543d3$8190d440$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <200504172216.30562.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 17 April 2005 22:00, you wrote: > snipe > > Lyle wrote: > > > I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but > > > add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ > > faster? > > > > How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory > > > and cache? > > > Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? > > > > Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. > > McNamara), > > > Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation > > Page 408 > > -------- > > Model Basic Instructions Floating Point > > Inst. per second* Inst. per second > > ------------------------------------------- > > 11/70 36 671 > > 11/55 41 725 > > * Relative to 11/03 > > No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. > > sigh - I haven't memorized the DEC sacred texts yet;) no hardcopy, only > pdf... --snip-- > Running code withing the cache should have beaten the 55! I'll stick with Gorden Bell.... :-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Apr 18 00:36:30 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:36:30 +0200 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <33457.64.169.63.74.1113776822.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> <20050417220724.GG1702@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <33457.64.169.63.74.1113776822.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050418053630.GA7296@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Apr 17, 2005 at 03:27:02PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Alex wrote: > > No need to worry - trying to get a magnesium case to burn is _hard_ > > Actually, it's very easy. You just grind it up into powder first. > Time-consuming, but not particularly difficult. But after you've ground it all into a fine (and easily ignitable) powder, it is longer a computer case but a heap of fine magnesium powder ... ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Mon Apr 18 00:55:51 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:55:51 +1200 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <083601c543db$46acdd80$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 10:22 AM Subject: Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R > Phil wrote: >> Watch out though - the "Datalife" CDRs are cheap crap - rebranded >> CMC >> Magnetics floor-scrapings. > > Floor scrapings are the only kind CMC Magnetics makes. TDK CD-Rs > used > to be Taiyo-Yuden, which is the best. I routinely bought them at > Costco. > One day I had a spindle of which nearly 50% of the discs were bad, > and > checking the ATIP data, they were CMC Magnetics. I've never bought > TDK CD-R media since. I can only guess that some bean counter at > TDK > refused to pay for T-Y when CMCM is so much cheaper. Possibly TDK > has > switched to something else by now, but I'll never find out > first-hand. > > Eric So just how reilable/accurate IS the ATIP data? This guy thinks it's rubbish. http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html#S2-33 DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.15 - Release Date: 16/04/2005 From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 02:59:00 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <35687.64.169.63.74.1113811140.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Heinz wrote about the PDP-11/55: > claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of > the blinkenlights > machines made by DEC.. Is that true? With bipolar memory, the 11/45 or 11/55 are definitely the fastest DEC machines with "real" front panels. > I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster No. The cache was roughly the same speed as the bipolar memory of the 11/45 or 11/55, but main memory was slower. And access to Unibus was slower. > How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and > cache? With PEP70 (replaces DEC main memory) it should be faster. With PEP70 and HC4x Hypercache (replaces DEC cache) it should be much faster. With QED95, even faster yet. But is it still an 11/70 at that point? Eric From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Mon Apr 18 05:05:51 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (birs23 at zeelandnet.nl) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:05:51 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Power Supply for Laser XT Computer In-Reply-To: <20050418000504.55352.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <200504171714.j3HHCiIv010904@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050418000504.55352.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43701.127.0.0.1.1113818751.squirrel@127.0.0.1> Ehmm, are you talking about an Laser 128 or Laser XT ? I have a whole pile of Laser (IBM-PC compatible) systems so I am sure there would be a good power supply in one of them. Cheers, Stefan. > Well... > > The power Adapter for my Apple IIC isn't compatible > with the Laser 128. > > It needs +/- 5V and +/- 12V. > > Does anyone have such a power supply, or know where I > could get one? > > Thanks! > > Al > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! > http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide > From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 07:20:03 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:03 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay Message-ID: <26c11a640504180520520b7382@mail.gmail.com> Any interest for these ? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5186209179&rd=1 I don't know seller just found them whilst browsing. Dan From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 18 07:35:18 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:35:18 -0400 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay References: <26c11a640504180520520b7382@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013001c54413$14a54510$3a92a8c0@maggie> thanks much! I will bid on them:) regards, h ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Williams" To: Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay > Any interest for these ? > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5186209179&rd=1 > > I don't know seller just found them whilst browsing. > > Dan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 18 07:38:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:38:02 -0400 Subject: HP-IB drive emulator Re: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <20050417124622.33212.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6667@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050418083802.00970180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:46 AM 4/17/05 -0700, you wrote: > >Zia Tech ZT 488 GPIB Analyzer. I have had a CS/80 disc >emulator project for Linux on my to-do list for some >time. Perhaps this will get me moving on it. You should talk to Steve Robertson about this. He's been doing that using a HP HP-IB Analyzer and he can tell you a LOT about how the HP-IB drives communicate. FWIW I found a National Instruments HP-IB bus analyzer card (not an interface card) but NI hasn't been able to supply any docs, SW or anything else for it so it's gathering dust. Joe From kandres at epssecurity.com Mon Apr 18 08:11:58 2005 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:11:58 -0400 Subject: OSI video Message-ID: It seems to my memory that we used just a RCA phono jack to the board, and RG58 with RCA phono plug on one end and a BNC on the other with a standard black and white security video monitor in the field, typically already located at the site as part of the existing video surveillance, so service personnel didn?t have to carry anything with them. We used a RF modulator, channel 3 or 4, on a larger screen TV set in engineering spaces for ease of viewing when developing or modifying the embedded application we were running on these, again it seems to me we picked that up at Radio Shack when we needed one back then, and fed it directly from the OSI board. It seems to me we got power for the modulator from the same connector that the video appeared on. We ran these on a battery backed up linear power supply, in the event that AC was lost to the facility. We didn?t need video with our application, so video was never left running in the field. I can?t remember when I last had that Superboard fired up, but I did it with a 5? black and white security monitor from my truck I use to setup video camera views with. Nothing extra involved, and it hasn?t been powered since. It is stored downstairs with the PET and a Data General Micro Nova. Kevin J Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc. HYPERLINK "mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com"mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.16 - Release Date: 4/18/2005 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.16 - Release Date: 4/18/2005 From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 08:36:44 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050418133644.51389.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Joe R." wrote: > >- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but > >doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000 > >side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format > it. > > I don't know about the 64000 but the HP9000 200s > and 300s display a list > of drives during bootup. Does the 64000 do that and > does it show the drive? When you boot the 64000 off the first two diskettes in the operating system set, it checks the HP-IB for any devices attached. If there are no devices attached, you get instructions displayed that state that AMIGO devices - and it names the 9134A - need to be set as address 0. With the drive attached at 0 , it reports the 64000 itself, and an unrecognized device at address 0. > On a 200 or 300 if you press any key druing boot it > will stop the system > from booting an OS but it will go through the search > for drives and display > a list of drives and OSs. I have a untried 9000/300 unit that I picked up last year. Perhaps I could try using that to test with. Will a 9000/300 try to boot without a keyboard attached ? Of course it would hard to press a key to stop the boot sequence without having a keyboard attached . > Is this one of the old wide biege units or one of > the newer square white > ones? > It's the big beige unit. There's no fault light on it, just the power light and the disk activity light. Just to see what would happen, I hooked it up to an HP-1631 and went through the Storage menu to see what it detected on the bus. I can see the activity light coming on when the 1631 tries to access the unit. > I have a couple of those cards and I'm pretty > sure that I have the > manual and software SOMEWHERE but I have no idea if > I can find it. If you > ind them from another source, let me know. The Zia Tech unit is less of a card and more of a programmer's panel sort of device. It has a couple of rows of switches and lights that correspond to the data lines and some of the HP-IB commands. It doesn't seem to have any address setting capability on the outside of the box. Maybe there's a DIP switch inside or something. Looks fun though. Regards, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 08:38:20 2005 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 06:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP CRT mould update Message-ID: <20050418133820.53787.qmail@web31005.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I sealed the edges of the faceplate/CRT with aquarium-grade clear RTV. This was outside the field of view permitted by the housing of my HP terminal. Keep everything absolutely clean (I used acetone) so that no dirt or smudges will be permanently trapped between the two surfaces. Use good lighting, outdoors (because of the acetone). I would STRONGLY advise ALWAYS replacing this faceplate. I'm sure that having it in front of the CRT itself will be very helpful if there is an implosion. I have read that the neck a a CRT tends to be shot through the front of a CRT in the event of implosion. This would be bad. Once assembled this way, there has been no optical affect whatsoever visible on my CRT. It is impossible to tell that there is a space between the CRT and faceplate (in my case, around 1/4-1/8". -Steve Loboyko Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl Nixie Watch (one-tube):http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl/complwatch.htm __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 18 09:05:36 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:05:36 -0400 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? Message-ID: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? > From: "Heinz Wolter" > Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 01:00:13 -0400 > To: "Lyle Bickley" , > >snipe >Lyle wrote: >> > I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster - but >> > add all the cache and complexity - maybe the 55 with bipolar ~was~ >faster? >> > How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and >> > cache? >> > Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? >> >> Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. >McNamara), >> Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation >> Page 408 >> -------- >> Model Basic Instructions Floating Point >> Inst. per second* Inst. per second >> ------------------------------------------- >> 11/70 36 671 >> 11/55 41 725 >> * Relative to 11/03 >> No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. > >sigh - I haven't memorized the DEC sacred texts yet;) no hardcopy, only >pdf... >So the 55 is roughly 14% faster than 70 - probably due to main memory >timing. >This might not be the case with the PEP70, though it's not stock. >Interesting >that the FP is only 8% faster - given that they are likely similarly >microded and >memory would not be such an issue working out of the FP registers. Clock >speed? >Then again... if one put 2 MW of 300ns ram on a 70.. well the 55 was only >18 bit address ;) >Anybody know the microclock frequency of both models? Variable timing/phase? >This variable microclock trick was later used in Vax/750 hot wiring kits.. >On a similar vein, wasn't the 11/34c clock slowed to allow for cache timing, >making >it slower than a 34A? (for uncached accesses) Is is this a possible reason >for the 70's >poor performance? Running code withing the cache should have beaten the 55! >h Sorry, while for those metric the 55 was a tad faster, for IO the 11/70 was massively faster. At that time to do large arrays of data you needed lots of fast IO to disks as you could only works with part of an array at any time due too addressing limitations of the PDP11. When you measure systems, measure the system not just the cpu. Allison From Tim at rikers.org Mon Apr 18 09:19:01 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:19:01 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A manuals Message-ID: <4263C1D5.70005@Rikers.org> I'm making some progress on restoring my HP-2116A system. I really need the manuals at this point. I see a couple that are related to the 2116 on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/02152-90004_2116FPP_sep70.pdf http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/5950-8704_2116B_classVol2.pdf However I really need something more like a service manual. Schematics, test proceedures, etc. I know there are quite a few folks out there with 2116A systems. Anyone have electronic versions of the docs? I'd be willing to do the pdf conversion if someone would loan me paper manuals. FYI: I'll be out of town tomorrow through sunday. (SLC, UT) I continue to put up more pictures: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Apr 18 09:41:43 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 07:41:43 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200504180741.43179.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 18 April 2005 07:05, Allison wrote: --snip-- > >> Read "Computer Engineering" (Gorden Bell, J. Craig Mudge, John E. > > > >McNamara), > > > >> Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation > >> Page 408 > >> -------- > >> Model Basic Instructions Floating Point > >> Inst. per second* Inst. per second > >> ------------------------------------------- > >> 11/70 36 671 > >> 11/55 41 725 > >> * Relative to 11/03 > >> No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. > Sorry, while for those metric the 55 was a tad faster, for IO the 11/70 was > massively faster. At that time to do large arrays of data you needed lots > of fast IO to disks as you could only works with part of an array at any > time due too addressing limitations of the PDP11. > > When you measure systems, measure the system not just the cpu. System performance is application dependent. If you were going to do FORTRAN FP, the 11/55 would be a good choice. This specific 11/55 it was used as part of a flight simulator - a perfect application for the high performance (CPU) 11/55. If you were running a RSTS/E shop with lots of I/O (as I did many years ago), your choice would have been an 11/70 - for it's massbus I/O capabilities, good integer/FP performance, and memory capacity. So saying it is the "fastest blinkenlights" system is certainly valid in the context of its application - and in the manner that "Computer Engineering" documented its performance. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From andyda at earthlink.net Sun Apr 17 12:28:43 2005 From: andyda at earthlink.net (Andy Dannelley) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 10:28:43 -0700 Subject: Dead AIM 65 In-Reply-To: <200504171632.j3HGVpcb010365@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504171632.j3HGVpcb010365@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <25CA4728-AF66-11D9-B2DD-000D936E90CA@earthlink.net> On Apr 17, 2005, at 9:32 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Sat, 2005-04-16 at 10:51 -0700, Andy Dannelley wrote: >> Well, I tried the next steps, with my limited equipment, and no joy. >> >> Here's what I've tried so far, > > Possible reset fault? Check connections to display logic too (PIA / > 6520 / U1) - pin 1 is ground, 22, 22 and 24 should be at +5V. Pin 11 is > clock, and pin 8 is the same reset line as for the CPU. > > I've got the schematic - it's around the size of 6 sheets of A4 so > could > just about scan it if you want (and can't find it on the web already). > > cheers > > Jules Thanks for the offer, But I still have the complete documentation set that I got with the AIM when I bought it way, back then... Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check out as soon as I can, Later, AndyD From steerex at mindspring.com Sun Apr 17 15:36:45 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2005 20:36:45 -0000 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video References: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <424DBFBF.E708FACE@mindspring.com> > - HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but > doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000 > side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it. > I am trying to determine whether the light on the > front of the ST506 inside should be on or not once the > drive comes up to speed or whether it only comes on > when that HBIB address is being accessed. Any hints ? Sounds like the device is responding to the "Parallel Poll" so the controller recognizes there is a device at that address. This is an iindication that the disk's HPIB interface is working correctly. Apparently the disk is not. When the disk is powered up, it should go through it's initialization routine. During this phase, the indicator LED on the front panel should blink at about 2 CPS. After 5 or 10 seconds, the disk will complete it's initialization and the LED's will change state. An amber LED indicates a disk failure, a steady green LED indicates that the disk / interface is ready. The green LED will blink when the device is busy. For short duration events, (IE write / read) this will be momentary. For longer events, like formatting a disk, the green LED will blink until the operation is complete. Low level formatting is strictly a function of the HP9134. The controller just sends the "format" command and the HPIB controller (in the disk) does the rest. It's possible using a HPIB bus analyzer to read the ERROR codes directly from the interface. I doubt the 64000 has extended diagnostics that will display the exact failure mode. I have had problems wit those particular drives before. I wouldn't be surprised if the disk is toast :-( NOTE: Although the HPIB spec allows devices to be addressed in the range 0 - 15, I have found that the 91XX disks don't work above ADDRESS = 7. Check the address switches. See ya, SteveRob From bv at norbionics.com Mon Apr 18 03:36:09 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:36:09 +0200 Subject: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <33457.64.169.63.74.1113776822.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <1113750062.10734.29.camel@weka.localdomain> <004c01c54369$3dab22e0$c1781941@game> <20050417220724.GG1702@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <33457.64.169.63.74.1113776822.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 00:27:02 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: > Alex wrote: >> No need to worry - trying to get a magnesium case to burn is _hard_ > > Actually, it's very easy. You just grind it up into powder first. > Time-consuming, but not particularly difficult. > Once a small part is ignited, it will burn quite well in solid chunks if it gets enough oxygen. A bit of iron oxide can make the situation very interesting. Drilling or grinding magnesium without proper precautions is risky. Welding is done with inert gas, so that is usually quite safe. -- Bj?rn From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 18 10:20:02 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:20:02 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <35687.64.169.63.74.1113811140.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> <35687.64.169.63.74.1113811140.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <1113837602.17203.29.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 00:59 -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Heinz wrote about the PDP-11/55: > > claimed that it was the fastest PDP11 of > > the blinkenlights > > machines made by DEC.. Is that true? > > With bipolar memory, the 11/45 or 11/55 are definitely the fastest > DEC machines with "real" front panels. > > > I expected an 11/70 to be instruction for instruction faster > > No. The cache was roughly the same speed as the bipolar memory of > the 11/45 or 11/55, but main memory was slower. And access to Unibus > was slower. > > > How about compared to a 11/70 with a PEP70 instead of factory memory and > > cache? > > With PEP70 (replaces DEC main memory) it should be faster. With PEP70 and > HC4x Hypercache (replaces DEC cache) it should be much faster. Just from running a simple blinking lights test, I can tell you that the 11/55 *is* faster than an 11/70 with PEP70 & Hypercache. I've run the program on both and the 11/70 blinks the lights *fast*. When I run it on the 11/55 you can't see the lights! At first I thought the 11/55 had serious problems. Once I put in a longer delay than I usually use it was still faster but you could actually see the lights. > > With QED95, even faster yet. But is it still an 11/70 at that point? -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 18 10:24:15 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 08:24:15 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <1113837855.17203.34.camel@linux.site> On Sun, 2005-04-17 at 23:24 -0400, Heinz Wolter wrote: > Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? Actually, the 11/45 came in 3 variations originally: * core * upto 64KW of MOS on the fastbus * upto 64KW of Bipolar on the fastbus The 11/50 was identical to the 11/45 and came standard with either MOS or Bipolar on the fastbus. The 11/55 is sort of half way between the 11/45 and 11/70 CPU-wise. Most of the CPU boards are from the 11/45, but there are a number that came from the 11/70 (including the FPU boards). It is a distinct CPU from the 11/45 (as designated by the KB11D). -- TTFN - Guy From kandres at epssecurity.com Mon Apr 18 11:06:20 2005 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:06:20 -0400 Subject: OSI video Message-ID: It seems to my memory that we used just a RCA phono jack to the board, and RG58 with RCA phono plug on one end and a BNC on the other with a standard black and white security video monitor in the field, typically already located at the site as part of the existing video surveillance, so service personnel didn?t have to carry anything with them. We used a RF modulator, channel 3 or 4, on a larger screen TV set in engineering spaces for ease of viewing when developing or modifying the embedded application we were running on these, again it seems to me we picked that up at Radio Shack when we needed one back then, and fed it directly from the OSI board. It seems to me we got power for the modulator from the same connector that the video appeared on. We ran these on a battery backed up linear power supply, in the event that AC was lost to the facility. We didn?t need video with our application, so video was never left running in the field. I can?t remember when I last had that Superboard fired up, but I did it with a 5? black and white security monitor from my truck I use to setup video camera views with. Nothing extra involved, and it hasn?t been powered since. It is stored downstairs with the PET and a Data General Micro Nova. Kevin J Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc. mailto:kandres at epssecurity.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.16 - Release Date: 4/18/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.16 - Release Date: 4/18/2005 From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 18 11:17:22 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:17:22 -0700 Subject: Magnesium Fires, was Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) References: <200504181537.j3IFb0S9023995@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4263DD92.817030CE@rain.org> Many years ago, I did some machine work on magnesium and kept the chips. At some point, I wanted to see how it would burn and put a small pile of chips on the sidewalk and lit it with a match. Burned *very* nicely all the way up to the time the concrete exploded from all the heat being generated (and probably moisture from rain the day before.) It left a scar above one eye and put a hole in my dads brand new convertable top. People still wonder how I managed to live this long :). > > Alex wrote: > >> No need to worry - trying to get a magnesium case to burn is _hard_ > > > > Actually, it's very easy. You just grind it up into powder first. > > Time-consuming, but not particularly difficult. > > > Once a small part is ignited, it will burn quite well in solid chunks if > it gets enough oxygen. > A bit of iron oxide can make the situation very interesting. > > Drilling or grinding magnesium without proper precautions is risky. > Welding is done with inert gas, so that is usually quite safe. > > -- > Bj??rn > From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Apr 18 11:21:19 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:21:19 -0500 Subject: WarGames tape Message-ID: <00cd01c54432$a908ffc0$3b406b43@66067007> While working the flea market this weekend I picked a VHS copy WarGames and watched it Sunday afternoon. It was strange to watch the many shots of mainframes that were in the movie but I notice none seem to be in air condition rooms? One looks like a 360 or 370 system and another shot may be a minicomputer with all the disk/tape drives and printers. That IMSAI still looks great in his room, wasn't that computer sold on eBay? The VHS tape was only 50 cent at the market. From aek at spies.com Mon Apr 18 11:35:18 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:35:18 -0700 Subject: HP-2116A manuals Message-ID: I have the manuals scanned, I'll see about getting them on line. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Apr 18 11:38:09 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:38:09 -0500 Subject: HP 2100/21MX boards available (and needed) Message-ID: <002701c54435$06a15900$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I have some boards available, and some others I desperately need. Trades anyone??? Available (and thoroughly tested to work - multiples of each available): + TRUE IN/OUT Time Base Generator (TBG) 13037 Disc Interface (the PCA, not the rackmount box) Jumper BACI High Performance Memory for E/F (various sizes) High Performance Memory Controller Standard Performance Memory (M, various sizes) 1K WCS for M?/E/F (only one available) WCS for 2100 (only one available - untested, and may already be spoken for) Need: 3 GRD TRUE IN/OUT 1 Firmware Accessory Board (FAB) 1 Dual Channel Port Controller (DCPC) 1 8-bit duplex register Notes: 1) I'd prefer the WCS & 1K WCS to go to someone who actually plans to do some microcoding, not just sit on a shelf 2) I'd prefer to trade some of the available boards for the needed boards, but may be swayed with other gear :) Regards, Jay West From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 11:57:54 2005 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 09:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for Multibus cards and SMD drives ... Message-ID: <20050418165754.6572.qmail@web31401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Looking for any Sun era multibus cards (anything) and a working SMD HD drive (anything that has some chance of working with a Xylogics 450/451 SMD board). Both for an old Sun rescue. Cheers Ian. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 18 12:12:44 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:12:44 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050418133644.51389.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <6667@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:36 AM 4/18/05 -0700, you wrote: > >--- "Joe R." wrote: >> >- HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but >> >doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000 >> >side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format >> it. >> >> I don't know about the 64000 but the HP9000 200s >> and 300s display a list >> of drives during bootup. Does the 64000 do that and >> does it show the drive? > >When you boot the 64000 off the first two diskettes in >the operating system set, it checks the HP-IB for any >devices attached. If there are no devices attached, >you get instructions displayed that state that AMIGO >devices - and it names the 9134A - need to be set as >address 0. With the drive attached at 0 , it reports >the 64000 itself, and an unrecognized device at >address 0. The Amigo protocall is for floppy disk drives! It must expect one of the 9134s with the option (option 100?) to make it look like four floppy diks drives (usually HP 9895s). If it wants the Amigo protocall try hanging a HP 9121 drive on it. They're relatively common and usually cheap since they're only SS drives. > >> On a 200 or 300 if you press any key druing boot it >> will stop the system >> from booting an OS but it will go through the search >> for drives and display >> a list of drives and OSs. > >I have a untried 9000/300 unit that I picked up last >year. Perhaps I could try using that to test with. >Will a 9000/300 try to boot without a keyboard >attached ? Yes IIRC but without a keyboard you can't pause the boot process so if the drive has a bootable OS it will boot to the first OS that it finds. If it doesn't find an OS it will stop with a list of the attached drives displayed. Personally I always check any drives that I get on several systems to see if they have a useable OS. I'd hate to lose an OS because I reformatted the drive without seeing if it had an OS that I could use for another system. Of course it would hard to press a key to >stop the boot sequence without having a keyboard >attached . > >> Is this one of the old wide biege units or one of >> the newer square white >> ones? > > >It's the big beige unit. There's no fault light on it, >just the power light and the disk activity light. > >Just to see what would happen, I hooked it up to an >HP-1631 and went through the Storage menu to see what >it detected on the bus. I can see the activity light >coming on when the 1631 tries to access the unit. > >> I have a couple of those cards and I'm pretty >> sure that I have the >> manual and software SOMEWHERE but I have no idea if >> I can find it. If you >> ind them from another source, let me know. > >The Zia Tech unit is less of a card and more of a >programmer's panel sort of device. That sounds more like the HP HP-IB bus analyzer. Does the panel look like either one of these? I have a couple of non-HP ones but they all look VERY similar and I'm sure that they all opeate the same. I do have the manual for the HP one but IIRC it really didn't give much in the way of instructions. I think they assume that the user already knows a lot about how HP-IB works. It has a couple of >rows of switches and lights that correspond to the >data lines and some of the HP-IB commands. It doesn't >seem to have any address setting capability on the >outside of the box. Maybe there's a DIP switch inside >or something. Looks fun though. It wouldn't have an address switch since it merely monitors the bus. Yeah, it sounds like you have something equivilent to the HP analyzer. Joe > >Regards, > >Dave > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. >http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Apr 18 12:31:13 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:31:13 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050417130651.825.qmail@web30609.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200504181731.j3IHVEVu026017@mail.bcpl.net> On 17 Apr 2005 at 6:06, David Comley wrote: > - HP 9134A: The unit is appears on the HPIB bus but > doesn't identify itself correctly. From the HP64000 > side I get a 'NO DISC' error when I try to format it. Note that for use on the HP 64000, the 9134A must have been built with Option 010. That configures the drive as a single 4.8 MB unit. The standard configuration 9134A appears to the host as four 1.15 MB volumes to emulate four 9895A floppy drives. A sticker on the rear of the unit to the right of the serial plate should show "OPT. 10" if it's a single unit configuration. (I have one of these and used it successfully on an HP 64000, but it is sloooow!) -- Dave From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Apr 18 12:34:29 2005 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:34:29 -0700 Subject: WarGames tape In-Reply-To: <00cd01c54432$a908ffc0$3b406b43@66067007> References: <00cd01c54432$a908ffc0$3b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: At 11:21 AM -0500 4/18/05, Keys wrote: >While working the flea market this weekend I picked a VHS copy >WarGames and watched it Sunday afternoon. It was strange to watch >the many shots of mainframes that were in the movie but I notice >none seem to be in air condition rooms? One looks like a 360 or 370 >system and another shot may be a minicomputer with all the disk/tape >drives and printers. It's been a long time since I've watched that movie so my memory is hazy. However I can say that some of the scenes were shot in the CSU Long Beach computer center while (or just after) I was there. At the time there was a CDC (could have been a 3150 or 6600, I no longer remember) and a PDP-11/70. As I recall, the CDC was visible in several shots; I don't recall the /70 being shown. I can assure you, the machines were indeed air conditioned. There was another shot (or several) of a "technician"; don't remember the character's name. This was shot just outside the machine room in what was at the time an analyst cubicle area. (Our actual technician room was not used; it was pretty small.) John From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Apr 18 12:36:44 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:36:44 -0400 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? Message-ID: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> While digging through a pile of PCs headed for the recycling/re-use center, I found a couple neat items. One is a NEC Advanced Personal Computer. Or at least I'm pretty sure that's what it said on the front. It's an all-in-one case, dual 8" floppy drives mounted vertically on the right side. Beige case, black trim. And the Keyboard to go with it. Is this thing worth saving for a museum or something? Free, pickup in New Haven, CT. Also was in the pile, and IBM server type item. Small, about the size of 2 Thinkpads stacked on top of each other. Has 3 1/2' floppy, twin-ax connections on the back. Didn't notice any console (key/mouse/monitor) connections on the back. And I believe there is a terminal server under that also. Any interest? Free, pickup in New Haven, CT. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 12:39:59 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 01:39:59 +0800 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! Message-ID: Help, My Quantum DL4000 or DEC TZ88 has come undone... IOW, the leader which snares the tape has come loose, and I don't know how to wind it back... :-{ The mechanism has 6 heads; I tried to wind it around the 6-headed path, but the leader is not long enough, so it must be wound around a shorter path...but which one?? It's OK it nobody's understand what I'm talking about :-), as long as someone is kind enough to post naked pics of a working TZ87/88 of how the leader is being wound. TIA. /wai-sun From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 18 12:41:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:41:30 -0600 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4263F14A.4050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >Sorry, while for those metric the 55 was a tad faster, for IO the 11/70 was >massively faster. At that time to do large arrays of data you needed lots >of fast IO to disks as you could only works with part of an array at any >time due too addressing limitations of the PDP11. > > > Umm how about real HARD Numbers when talking speeds. >When you measure systems, measure the system not just the cpu. > > Or like everbody does today clock speeds ... with a .3 ns clock how fast is REAL memory again? Ben alias woodelf From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Mon Apr 18 13:00:00 2005 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:00:00 -0400 Subject: free printers in Spring Hill Florida - FREE In-Reply-To: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> References: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050418135445.02da4470@pop-server> I have 4 printers to give away but you must pick them up in Spring Hill Florida (40 miles north of Tampa). The person who gave them to me a few years ago said that they all worked the last time he tried them but I have no way to test them. Just the printers, no cables. Juki 6100 MPS 801 MPS 802 (2) They are free with no strings (or cables) attached. If you have any of the following that you don't need I would love to have one or more of them in return. Originals only (no copies) Ami-Pro Word Processor Atari 400/800 Computer Cartridges Lotus Organizer 6.0 PFS First Choice Professional Write MS Word for DOS Select Phone or other phone CD's Symantec Q&A Database Software (any release) TurboTax - any years, older the better From Tim at rikers.org Mon Apr 18 13:07:20 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:07:20 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4263F758.8010503@Rikers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > I have the manuals scanned, I'll see about getting them on line. I look forward to reading them. Thanx! -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Apr 18 13:04:35 2005 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:04:35 -0700 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <4263F14A.4050401@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <4263F14A.4050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1113847475.6902.39.camel@linux.site> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 11:41 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Allison wrote: > > >Sorry, while for those metric the 55 was a tad faster, for IO the 11/70 was > >massively faster. At that time to do large arrays of data you needed lots > >of fast IO to disks as you could only works with part of an array at any > >time due too addressing limitations of the PDP11. > > > > > > > Umm how about real HARD Numbers when talking speeds. The basic instruction timing on the 11/45, 11/50, 11/55 and 11/70 is 300ns (ie the time it takes for the *fastest* instruction to execute). There are adders for the different types of memory. On the 11/45, 11/50, 11/55 there is a 0ns penalty for bipolar. It gets slower from there. I don't have the 11/70 docs in front of me to determine the slow downs for an 11/70. One of the other reasons that the 11/45, 11/50, 11/55's are fast when you put memory in the fastbus is that the fastbus memory is dual ported so the CPU doesn't slow down when there are other masters on the unibus (actually they have 2 unibuses but in most applications they are tied together). > > >When you measure systems, measure the system not just the cpu. > > > > > Or like everbody does today clock speeds ... with a .3 ns clock > how fast is > REAL memory again? > Ben alias woodelf > > > -- TTFN - Guy From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 18 13:12:27 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:12:27 -0400 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:20:03 BST." <26c11a640504180520520b7382@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> Dan Williams wrote: >Any interest for these ? > >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5186209179 >&rd=1 yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things up or is it easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? -brad From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 18 13:28:11 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:28:11 -0500 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <1113847475.6902.39.camel@linux.site> References: <4263F14A.4050401@jetnet.ab.ca> <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <4263F14A.4050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050418132701.0257c210@mail.ubanproductions.com> At 11:04 AM 4/18/2005 -0700, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 11:41 -0600, woodelf wrote: > > Allison wrote: > > > > >Sorry, while for those metric the 55 was a tad faster, for IO the > 11/70 was > > >massively faster. At that time to do large arrays of data you needed > lots > > >of fast IO to disks as you could only works with part of an array at any > > >time due too addressing limitations of the PDP11. > > > > > > > > > > > Umm how about real HARD Numbers when talking speeds. > >The basic instruction timing on the 11/45, 11/50, 11/55 and 11/70 is >300ns (ie the time it takes for the *fastest* instruction to execute). >There are adders for the different types of memory. On the 11/45, >11/50, 11/55 there is a 0ns penalty for bipolar. It gets slower from >there. I don't have the 11/70 docs in front of me to determine the slow >downs for an 11/70. > >One of the other reasons that the 11/45, 11/50, 11/55's are fast when >you put memory in the fastbus is that the fastbus memory is dual ported >so the CPU doesn't slow down when there are other masters on the unibus >(actually they have 2 unibuses but in most applications they are tied >together). I believe that speed of access to the Unibus on the 11/45 (et al) is also quite a bit faster than that on the 11/70, although I don't recall the reasons. --tom > > > > >When you measure systems, measure the system not just the cpu. > > > > > > > > Or like everbody does today clock speeds ... with a .3 ns clock > > how fast is > > REAL memory again? > > Ben alias woodelf > > > > > > >-- > >TTFN - Guy From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 18 13:50:50 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:50:50 +0100 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504181850.j3IIoo4D026431@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Wai-Sun Chia > Sent: 18 April 2005 18:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! > > Help, > My Quantum DL4000 or DEC TZ88 has come undone... > IOW, the leader which snares the tape has come loose, and I > don't know how to wind it back... :-{ > > The mechanism has 6 heads; I tried to wind it around the > 6-headed path, but the leader is not long enough, so it must > be wound around a shorter path...but which one?? The TZ88 doesn't have 6 heads, it has 6 guide rollers and 1 head. The pickup leader must hook on the plastic tab at the back of the cartridge bay and wind round all 6 guides before it hooks onto the takeup spool at the back of the drive. If it's not long enough then it's snapped. If nobody else has a drive easily to hand to dismantle I can get one off the shelf at work - part of my job is repairing these things :) cheers a From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 18 13:52:32 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:52:32 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Brad Parker wrote: > yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things > up or is it easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his feedback :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 13:54:17 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 11:54:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050418185417.89149.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "J. David Bryan" wrote: > Note that for use on the HP 64000, the 9134A must > have been built with > Option 010. That configures the drive as a single > 4.8 MB unit. The > standard configuration 9134A appears to the host as > four 1.15 MB volumes to > emulate four 9895A floppy drives. And that may be the problem. When I had this pointed to the 1631, it reported itself as a 9895. I do have the sticker on the back of the unit - can't recall which option was checked on it though so I will have to look when I get home. Can the option setting be tweaked ? Is it something as simple as a jumper setting ? Regards, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Apr 18 13:21:21 2005 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:21:21 -0400 Subject: WarGames tape In-Reply-To: References: <00cd01c54432$a908ffc0$3b406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <4263FAA1.80700@atarimuseum.com> The best shot of that movie is the Computer Center in Norad, as McKitrick is walking the White House advises from the conference room to the Wopr, you see him saying "this is our computer center where we monitor the state of the world, weather patterns, troop movements" (yadda yadda yadda...) and you just see row after gorgeous row of computers... Curt John A. Dundas III wrote: > At 11:21 AM -0500 4/18/05, Keys wrote: > >> While working the flea market this weekend I picked a VHS copy >> WarGames and watched it Sunday afternoon. It was strange to watch >> the many shots of mainframes that were in the movie but I notice none >> seem to be in air condition rooms? One looks like a 360 or 370 >> system and another shot may be a minicomputer with all the disk/tape >> drives and printers. > > > It's been a long time since I've watched that movie so my memory is > hazy. However I can say that some of the scenes were shot in the CSU > Long Beach computer center while (or just after) I was there. At the > time there was a CDC (could have been a 3150 or 6600, I no longer > remember) and a PDP-11/70. As I recall, the CDC was visible in > several shots; I don't recall the /70 being shown. I can assure you, > the machines were indeed air conditioned. > > There was another shot (or several) of a "technician"; don't remember > the character's name. This was shot just outside the machine room in > what was at the time an analyst cubicle area. (Our actual technician > room was not used; it was pretty small.) > > John > > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.16 - Release Date: 4/18/2005 From Tim at rikers.org Mon Apr 18 14:01:40 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:01:40 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A manuals In-Reply-To: <4263F758.8010503@Rikers.org> References: <4263F758.8010503@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42640414.2050500@Rikers.org> Al, I see volume 1 up as: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/2116/02116-9010_2116A_Vol1_Mar67.pdf Thanx very much! Now I wish I had written down my serial number so I knew if it was a 639- or 702- or some other. ;-) I'll check when I get home. Do you have volume 2 in electronic format? Looks like that has the hardware debugging bits I need to start restoring. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist - Tim at TI.com - http://www.TI.com/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 14:18:36 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CD-R ATIP data veracity (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <083601c543db$46acdd80$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <083601c543db$46acdd80$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <62159.207.145.53.202.1113851916.squirrel@207.145.53.202> DaveB wrote: > So just how reilable/accurate IS the ATIP data? > This guy thinks it's rubbish. > http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html#S2-33 I don't actually believe that there's a market for used stampers. But if there was, there's no way that the repuatable manufacturers like Taiyo-Yuden and Mitsui would sell them to someone else that would use them to dilute their brand. Besides which, they wouldn't sell them until they no longer met the manufacturer's standards (which may well be higher than the Orange Book requirements). So if they were going to sell them, who would buy them? Companies like CMC Magnetics. Yet CMC Magnetics discs (at least usually) have the correct ATIP information. Also, if another manufacturer started making discs with ATIP data claiming to be from Taiyo-Yuden or Mitsui, they would get sued for trademark infringement, unfair competition, and fraud. I suppose that might not stop manufacturers in mainland China, though. Anyhow, if the ATIP says that it's CMC Magnetics, it's safe to assume that the disc is junk. If anyone bought used stampers from them, the resulting media couldn't be any better than the CMC Magnetics junk. Eric From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:17:54 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:17:54 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <26c11a6405041812177374b65c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things > > up or is it easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? > > UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. > On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his > feedback :-) > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org > > Are you sure about that, I've sent and recieved quite a lot of dec stuff to the US and Europe. Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:17:54 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:17:54 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <26c11a6405041812177374b65c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things > > up or is it easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? > > UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. > On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his > feedback :-) > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org > > Are you sure about that, I've sent and recieved quite a lot of dec stuff to the US and Europe. Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:17:54 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:17:54 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <26c11a6405041812177374b65c@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things > > up or is it easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? > > UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. > On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his > feedback :-) > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org > > Are you sure about that, I've sent and recieved quite a lot of dec stuff to the US and Europe. Dan From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:19:10 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:19:10 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> <00be01c54447$ca9a6510$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <26c11a64050418121977fb4e46@mail.gmail.com> On 4/18/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: > > yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things > > up or is it easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? > > UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. > On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his > feedback :-) > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org > > Are you sure about that, I've sent and received quite a lot of dec stuff to the US and Europe. Dan From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 14:25:41 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <1113837855.17203.34.camel@linux.site> References: <3.0.6.32.20050417205241.00b71bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <00bc01c543c6$27a29840$3a92a8c0@maggie> <1113837855.17203.34.camel@linux.site> Message-ID: <62797.207.145.53.202.1113852341.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Heinz wrote: > Isn't a 55 just a 45 with bipolar instead of core? or was that a 50? Guy wrote: > Actually, the 11/45 came in 3 variations originally: > * core > * upto 64KW of MOS on the fastbus > * upto 64KW of Bipolar on the fastbus > > The 11/50 was identical to the 11/45 and came standard with either MOS > or Bipolar on the fastbus. > > The 11/55 is sort of half way between the 11/45 and 11/70 CPU-wise. > Most of the CPU boards are from the 11/45, but there are a number that > came from the 11/70 (including the FPU boards). It is a distinct CPU > from the 11/45 (as designated by the KB11D). But it's more complicated than that, because the 11/45 production was switched to the KB11-D CPU as well. It's basically safe to say that the distinctions between the 11/45, 11/50, and 11/55 were mostly marketing. The 11/50 and 11/55 were apparently always shipped with at least some Fastbus memory, and the 11/55 always had the KB11-D CPU (vs. KB11-A), but other than that many combinations were possible. The main difference between the KB11-A and KB11-D is that the FPP interface of the latter is sychronous. (The same as the difference between the KB11-B and KB11-C processors in the 11/70.) The microword is four bits wider to support that. Eric From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 14:27:14 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050418192714.67562.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Joe R." wrote: > 9134s with the option (option 100?) to make it look > like four floppy diks > drives (usually HP 9895s Well - the unit has two sets of address switches on the back, one labeled fixed disc address and one labeled flexible disc address. Not that there's a flexible drive installed though. Does that flexible disc address come in to play if the unit is configured as 4 x 1.15MB drives ? Perhaps I need to set that address instead. > That sounds more like the HP HP-IB bus analyzer. > Does the panel look > like either one of these? Hmmm- the eBay ones look like real test equipment. They have real displays and things. No, the one I got looks like two rows each of 8 switches and LEDs stuffed into a plastic project box with some dry print lettering on the front. Nothing near as nice as the ones on eBay. But for $2 it will do a turn. If I had a digital camera I'd put up a picture somewhere. Must look into that. Regards, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 14:28:49 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 12:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <6667@tampabay.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <63062.207.145.53.202.1113852529.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Joe wrote: > The Amigo protocall is for floppy disk drives! I don't think that it was exclusively for floppy drive, as I think the hard drive in the HP 300 used Amigo protocol as well. I'm not sure whether any others did. Eric From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Apr 18 14:31:41 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:31:41 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <26c11a64050418121977fb4e46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c301c5444d$40e3f920$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Dan Williams wrote: >> UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. >> On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his >> feedback :-) > Are you sure about that, I've sent and received quite a lot of > dec stuff to the US and Europe. The only part I'm not 100% about is whether I put in enough smileys - always a problem with non-verbal comms. The best thing to do to avoid future misunderstandings (and any possible charges that might arise from encouraging others to break UK export laws) would be to send all such "I've seen this cool vintage DEC item on ebay" emails to me and I'll pass along the ones that seem safe to post to the list. With practice I believe that I could complete all the necessary checks in as little as 11 days - sometimes even faster! You know it makes sense :-) :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From rcini at optonline.net Mon Apr 18 14:34:12 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (rcini at optonline.net) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:34:12 -0400 Subject: Altair MBL source Message-ID: All: I was able to get binary copies of some Altair paper tapes but none of them came with manuals. I believe that they can be loaded with the Altair Multi-Boot Loader, which I do not have. Does anyone have a copy of the MBL manual that they can scan for me? From what I've heard, it's only about 15-20 pages. Thanks in advance. Rich From waisun.chia at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 14:39:37 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 03:39:37 +0800 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! In-Reply-To: <200504181850.j3IIoo4D026431@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504181850.j3IIoo4D026431@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > The TZ88 doesn't have 6 heads, it has 6 guide rollers and 1 head. The pickup Well, dopey me. Right you are! :-) > leader must hook on the plastic tab at the back of the cartridge bay and > wind round all 6 guides before it hooks onto the takeup spool at the back of How is it wound? Going anticlockwise from the takeup spool: Roller1: outer circumference Roller2: outer circumference Roller3: outer circumference Roller4: outer circumference Roller5: inner or outer circumference? Roller6: inner or outer circumference? > the drive. If it's not long enough then it's snapped. If nobody else has a > drive easily to hand to dismantle I can get one off the shelf at work - part > of my job is repairing these things :) Great!! Please take some pics... p.s. How the heck do you dismantle the plastic which covers the cartridge? /wai-sun From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Mon Apr 18 14:42:39 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:42:39 -0400 Subject: PDP11/55 sells on Ebay for 5K$ - was it really the fastest 11? In-Reply-To: <200504180741.43179.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <0IF500L1FB50337E@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> <200504180741.43179.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <42640DAF.4060905@compsys.to> >Lyle Bickley wrote: >>>>Copyright 1978 by Digital Equipment Corporation >>>>Page 408 >>>>-------- >>>>Model Basic Instructions Floating Point >>>> Inst. per second* Inst. per second >>>>------------------------------------------- >>>>11/70 36 671 >>>>11/55 41 725 >>>>* Relative to 11/03 >>>>No brainer - the 11/55 wins hands down. >>>> >>Sorry, while for those metric the 55 was a tad faster, for IO the 11/70 was >>massively faster. At that time to do large arrays of data you needed lots >>of fast IO to disks as you could only works with part of an array at any >>time due too addressing limitations of the PDP11. >> >>When you measure systems, measure the system not just the cpu. >> >System performance is application dependent. > >If you were going to do FORTRAN FP, the 11/55 would be a good choice. This >specific 11/55 it was used as part of a flight simulator - a perfect >application for the high performance (CPU) 11/55. > >If you were running a RSTS/E shop with lots of I/O (as I did many years ago), >your choice would have been an 11/70 - for it's massbus I/O capabilities, >good integer/FP performance, and memory capacity. > >So saying it is the "fastest blinkenlights" system is certainly valid in the >context of its application - and in the manner that "Computer Engineering" >documented its performance. > Jerome Fine replies: Does anyone have any benchmarks programs and results (so they can be used with other configurations) that have been run on various PDP-11 systems? It would be helpful if the non-DEC CPUs and emulators could be included. If possible, benchmarks for RT-11 are required. Source code would be satisfactory. As far as I know, the PDP-11/93 (or the PDP-11/94) was supposed to be the fastest DEC PDP-11 system. But at least three other hardware replacements, including QED and Mentec models were available. When emulators are included, I understand that E11 is the fastest system (when run on the fastest P4) being able to achieve at least 30 times a PDP-11/93 and perhaps up to 75 or even 100 times a PDP-11/93. I have run E11 on a 750 MHz Pentium III and speeds of about 15 times a PDP-11/93 were achieved. While I hoped that a 3 GHz P4 would be 4 times as fast, I was a bit disappointed with the limited testing I have been able to attempt - I seem to find that the P4 is only about 2.5 times that Pentium III when I run an RT-11 benchmark under E11 under Win98SE. One of the reasons that E11 is so fast is that for benchmarks which require only a small capacity of disk space (less than 1 GByte), the ability of the operating system to cache the disk space used could make the I/O portion of the benchmark even faster than the CPU portion when the Pentium system has sufficient RAM. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 18 15:10:41 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 13:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! In-Reply-To: from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Apr 19, 2005 01:39:59 AM Message-ID: <200504182010.j3IKAf3A016148@onyx.spiritone.com> > My Quantum DL4000 or DEC TZ88 has come undone... > IOW, the leader which snares the tape has come loose, and I don't know > how to wind it back... :-{ > > The mechanism has 6 heads; I tried to wind it around the 6-headed > path, but the leader is not long enough, so it must be wound around a > shorter path...but which one?? > > It's OK it nobody's understand what I'm talking about :-), as long as > someone is kind enough to post naked pics of a working TZ87/88 of how > the leader is being wound. I'm not sure if the drives are ontopic, but if they're not they're very close. I first saw one about 8 1/2 years ago. It's been a few years since I had to restring a DLT4000, but as I recall it isn't that much different than a TK50. In any case I think you can probably find the info you need on the Quantum website. http://www.quantum.com/am/service_support/downloads/default.htm Zane From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Apr 18 15:22:22 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:22:22 -0500 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050418151920.00c4d270@localhost> At 01:39 AM 4/19/2005 +0800, you wrote: >Help, >My Quantum DL4000 or DEC TZ88 has come undone... >IOW, the leader which snares the tape has come loose, and I don't know >how to wind it back... :-{ > >The mechanism has 6 heads; I tried to wind it around the 6-headed >path, but the leader is not long enough, so it must be wound around a >shorter path...but which one?? is the leader still attached to the plastic spool near the back of the drive? You can unhook the clear plastic cover over the spool from its many catches / latches and carefully remove it, and turn the spool until you can see the end of the leader. Does it have a hook attached to it, in the form of a plastic cap with a hole in it? If all you have at the end of it is a ragged end, you need a new leader. Information wants to be free! --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 18 16:42:29 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:42:29 -0400 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:31:41 BST." <00c301c5444d$40e3f920$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200504182142.j3ILgTMi014695@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Antonio Carlini" wrote: >Dan Williams wrote: >>> UK controls prohibit the export of anything DEC-related. >>> On top of that, do you really want to risk it with his >>> feedback :-) > ... > >You know it makes sense :-) :-) LOL!!! ok! I get it! :-) Did I mention that there's a new law in the US which requires all lisp machine parts to be returned to the US? I can help out, if anyone would like to return something. Oh yea, and I think it applies to Emulex UC17/UC18's also. -brad From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Apr 18 16:58:12 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:58:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay In-Reply-To: <200504182142.j3ILgTMi014695@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504182142.j3ILgTMi014695@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Brad Parker wrote: > > > Did I mention that there's a new law in the US which requires all lisp > machine parts to be returned to the US? For what, speech therapy? Cheers John From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Apr 18 16:58:55 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:58:55 +0100 Subject: CD-R ATIP data veracity (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <62159.207.145.53.202.1113851916.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <33412.64.169.63.74.1113776553.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <62159.207.145.53.202.1113851916.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <573cbb5d4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <62159.207.145.53.202.1113851916.squirrel at 207.145.53.202> "Eric Smith" wrote: > Also, if another manufacturer started making discs with ATIP data > claiming to be from Taiyo-Yuden or Mitsui, they would get sued for > trademark infringement, unfair competition, and fraud. I suppose > that might not stop manufacturers in mainland China, though. The same thing doesn't appear to apply to DVD-R and DVD+R. There have been reports of fake Taiyo Yuden DVD+/-R blanks floating around. Seems when recordable DVD blanks are manufactured, the media ID block is blank. IIRC it's written just after the discs are manufactured. Faking a T-Y Media ID signature is no difficult task, unlike ATIP faking which would require a stamper with a fake ATIP "pregroove wobble". Put simply, if someone asks for a stamper with a Taiyo Yuden, Mitsubishi Chemical or similar ATIP, the stamper manufacturer is going to want proof that the company in question (T-Y, Mitz, ...) ordered that stamper. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... S met ing's hap ening t my k ybo rd . . From steerex at mindspring.com Mon Apr 18 13:03:39 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:03:39 -0000 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video References: <20050418133644.51389.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <424EED59.B0DE9796@mindspring.com> > The Zia Tech unit is less of a card and more of a > programmer's panel sort of device. It has a couple of > rows of switches and lights that correspond to the > data lines and some of the HP-IB commands. It doesn't > seem to have any address setting capability on the > outside of the box. Maybe there's a DIP switch inside > or something. Looks fun though. > > Regards, > > Dave I'm not familiar with the ZiaTech analyzer but assume it is similar in function the HP 59401A that I use. The HP 59401A is a very nice device. Hightly recommended for any HPIB troubleshooting. I ocasionally see them on eBay in the $35 - $50 range. The analyzer is a "dumb" device. It can monitor and manipulate the BUS it cannot automatically generate or respond to the signals. It listens to everything, it responds to nothing (without operator intervention). Since the analyzer sees all the data, it doesn't need it's own HPIB address (no switches). The analyzer relys on the operator to enter the correct control and data sequences. By toggling in the proper sequences, the operator can emulate virtually any device that can be attached to the bus. A few years ago, I formatted a CS80 disk, and wrote the entire boot sector using just an analyzer. Later, I was able to boot a HP2100 off the disk! NOTE: The control sequences for CS80 drives are fairly complex so, I'd recommend starting with a simpler device. If you have a HPIB multimeter or printer; you can attach them directly to the analyzer, without a host computer, and experiment with controlling them. Once you undersand the HPIB handshaking, you can try a more complicated device like the HP9134. Do you have any other HPIB devices? If so, I'll help you understand how to talk to them before tackling the disk drive. See ya, SteveRob From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 18 13:00:12 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 14:00:12 -0400 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? In-Reply-To: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050418140012.00978830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dave, I have a NEC APC and they're pretty nice machines. They run MS-DOS (tailored) or CPM. The one that I have works and also has the color CRT. The APC is big and heavy as I'm sure you've discovered by now. I've had people wanting to buy mine but it's too much trouble to pack and ship. If you find any books, docs or software I'd love to get them. Joe At 01:36 PM 4/18/05 -0400, you wrote: > While digging through a pile of PCs headed for the recycling/re-use >center, I found a couple neat items. One is a NEC Advanced Personal >Computer. Or at least I'm pretty sure that's what it said on the front. >It's an all-in-one case, dual 8" floppy drives mounted vertically on the >right side. Beige case, black trim. And the Keyboard to go with it. Is >this thing worth saving for a museum or something? Free, pickup in New >Haven, CT. > Also was in the pile, and IBM server type item. Small, about the size >of 2 Thinkpads stacked on top of each other. Has 3 1/2' floppy, twin-ax >connections on the back. Didn't notice any console (key/mouse/monitor) >connections on the back. And I believe there is a terminal server under >that also. Any interest? Free, pickup in New Haven, CT. > >-- >--- Dave Woyciesjes >--- ICQ# 905818 > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 18 17:31:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:31:47 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <63062.207.145.53.202.1113852529.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6667@tampabay.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> No it's not EXCLUSIVELY for the floppy drives but that's what it was desinged for. If you'd read on you'd have seen that I explained that it was used in a few special optioned hard drives so that they would look like multiple floppy drives. More to the point, it IS a older protocall than SS-80 and CS-80 and a machine that expects an Amigo drive will not be able to use the later SS-80 and CS-80 drives. That's why I suggested that he try and find a HP 9121 drive. It's a widely available modern 3.5" floppy drive but still uses the Amigo protocall. Other computers that only used the Amigo protocall include the HP-83/85/86/87 series and the HP-125 and HP-120 CPM systems. I'm sure there are others but I'm only familar with HP's small systems. Joe At 12:28 PM 4/18/05 -0700, you wrote: >Joe wrote: >> The Amigo protocall is for floppy disk drives! > >I don't think that it was exclusively for floppy drive, as I think the >hard drive in the HP 300 used Amigo protocol as well. I'm not sure >whether any others did. > >Eric > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 18 17:23:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:23:57 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050418192714.67562.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050418182357.00b6a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:27 PM 4/18/05 -0700, you wrote: >--- "Joe R." wrote: >> 9134s with the option (option 100?) to make it look >> like four floppy diks >> drives (usually HP 9895s > >Well - the unit has two sets of address switches on >the back, one labeled fixed disc address and one >labeled flexible disc address. Not that there's a >flexible drive installed though. Does that flexible >disc address come in to play if the unit is configured >as 4 x 1.15MB drives ? Perhaps I need to set that >address instead. The address settings shouldn't make any difference*. The computer should find the drive and OS no matter where it's located. I don't think the FD address switchs do anything on your unit. In fact, I'm surprised that they're even there. BTW if your drive is configured as four floppy drives then it should be valuable and VERY desirable to the HP collectors. It's the only drive that can be used on things like the HP-85 without a special ROM. In fact, it may require the special ROM and STILL be the only HD that will work on the 85 and similar systems. Sorry, but I don't remember the exact details but I looked for one of those drives for years without success. *Assuming nothing else is already using that device number but I doubt it. It's probably the only thing that you have plugged into the HP-IB. > >> That sounds more like the HP HP-IB bus analyzer. >> Does the panel look >> like either one of these? > >Hmmm- the eBay ones look like real test equipment. >They have real displays and things. No, the one I got >looks like two rows each of 8 switches and LEDs >stuffed into a plastic project box with some dry print >lettering on the front. Nothing near as nice as the >ones on eBay. But for $2 it will do a turn. If I had a >digital camera I'd put up a picture somewhere. Must >look into that. Yes, I'd like to see it. I wonder if it might be someone's homemade bus analyzer or a prototype. Joe > >Regards, >Dave > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 17:40:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <1113761481.10716.57.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sun, 17 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Are you certain it was a mold eating at the sealant > > Actually, there was no obvious mould as such on this one - it seemed > more like the sealant had turned to liquid in some places (visible as > 'puddles' behind the glass), whilst in others it seemed to have > crystalised into small hard lumps (giving the visible white spots) > > So, no sign of visible mould - I wonder if the dark spots sometimes seen > are maybe some form of optical effect; trapped bubbles as you say rather > than being something physically dark in colour. The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about them? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Apr 18 17:48:56 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:48:56 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050418185417.89149.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: 6667 Message-ID: <200504182249.j3IMmvPW016184@mail.bcpl.net> On 18 Apr 2005 at 11:54, David Comley wrote: > And that may be the problem. When I had this pointed to the 1631, it > reported itself as a 9895. >From "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP 09134-90032, August 1983): "The 4-Volume configurations cause a 5 Mbyte drive to appear, to the host, as a four-unit 9895A flexible disc. [...] The controller also identifies itself to the host as a 9895A. "The Single-Volume configuration is similar to the 4-Volume in that they also use the 9895A Amigo protocol. With the Single-Volume, however, a drive does not appear to the host to be indentical [sic] to the 9895A." The four-volume configuration supplies "Identify" bytes 00H/81H (same as the 9895A?). The single-volume configuration supplies "Identify" bytes 01H/06H. > Can the option setting be tweaked ? Is it something as simple as a > jumper setting ? According to the service manual, there were three controller boards used in the 9134A: * 09135-69515 for the standard configuration * 09135-69501 for option 010 * 09133-69514 for both standard and option 010 after S/N 2151A04165 Only the last had jumpers for one volume/four volume configuration. So if you had one of the earlier units, you'd apparently need a controller swap to effect the change. For the later unit, there's a "one volume" jumper that is installed for option 010, removed for standard. If your unit is not marked Option 010, then the best bet would be to open it up and see which controller is inside to confirm. -- Dave From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 17:51:33 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amigo computer, Amigo disk protocol (was Re: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A, VT420 composite video) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6667@tampabay.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <48686.207.145.53.202.1113864693.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Joe wrote: > The Amigo protocall is for floppy disk drives! I wrote: > I don't think that it was exclusively for floppy drive, Joe wrote: > No it's not EXCLUSIVELY for the floppy drives but that's what it was > desinged for. I don't think so. It was designed for the Amigo computer, AKA HP-300, which is why it's called Amigo protocol. IIRC, the HP-300 didn't even *have* floppy drives. It had an internal hard drive, and I think it was possible to add more externally. The Computer History Museum recently got an Amigo, and Ken Sumrall, Stan Sieler, and I would like to run it someday. Anybody got docs (beyond what's already on bitsavers) or software? Eric From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 17:55:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 15:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? In-Reply-To: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, David Woyciesjes wrote: > While digging through a pile of PCs headed for the recycling/re-use > center, I found a couple neat items. One is a NEC Advanced Personal > Computer. Or at least I'm pretty sure that's what it said on the front. > It's an all-in-one case, dual 8" floppy drives mounted vertically on the > right side. Beige case, black trim. And the Keyboard to go with it. Is > this thing worth saving for a museum or something? Free, pickup in New > Haven, CT. It's a neat machine but nothing terribly special. Make's a really solid CP'M machine for someone who wants to play with that and likes 8" floppy drives. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 18 18:07:02 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:07:02 +0000 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113865622.12132.55.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 15:40 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as > does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated > ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically > susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about > them? Yep, I've not seen it on much else. Digico springs to mind, plus a couple of others that we have whose names escape me right now - but it's almost exclusively the HP stuff. Could just be an age-related breakdown on the sealant stuff that for some reason is almost unique to HP. Or I did wonder if it's some strange reaction between the sealant and something else - maybe the glue on the black tape that HP used around the fronts of their screens, or something odd like that. Actually, I wonder if most CRTs even have the faceplate like the HP systems do? Once I removed the faceplate on this 250's display, it was just like a regular CRT underneath. Maybe the reason it doesn't happen to other systems is simply that they don't have this additional glass panel over the CRT in the first place, and it was an HP addition that isn't normally found elsewhere? I know that sounds silly, but I've never paid *that* much attention to the front of CRTs on old systems, and the ones I do remember seem just like normal TV-type CRTs... cheers Jules From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Apr 18 18:09:15 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:09:15 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050418192714.67562.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504182309.j3IN9HE9024833@mail.bcpl.net> On 18 Apr 2005 at 12:27, David Comley wrote: > Does that flexible disc address come in to play if the unit is > configured as 4 x 1.15MB drives ? Perhaps I need to set that address > instead. The 9133 (hard + 3.5" floppy), 9134 (hard only), and 9135 (hard + 5.25" floppy) used the same controller, so the floppy address switches on the 9134 don't do anything. They're active on the other two models. Although you may already know it, it's probably worth mentioning that the 64000 system hard disc must be at address 0, a system line printer must be at address 1, stations must be at 2-7, and one of the stations (or the only one) must have the rear-panel master/slave switches set to "master," according to the 64000 configuration guide. -- Dave From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 18 18:16:27 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 16:16:27 -0700 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R Message-ID: <42643FCB.3040108@ix.netcom.com> Oh what a long string and so much to comment on. Not certain who started this so don't know if he wanted only a read function SCSI drive or wants a CD-R burner with SCSI interface. If it is a burner, I might have a couple left. The Yanahas are all dead, but I think the Philips are still working. Billy From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Apr 18 18:10:29 2005 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:10:29 -0500 Subject: Magnesium Fires, was Re: HP-2116A chassis (or repairing cast aluminum) In-Reply-To: <4263DD92.817030CE@rain.org> References: <200504181537.j3IFb0S9023995@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050418180407.0bafffa8@localhost> We used to live dangerously as kids (a different time, perhaps?) and there was a company that had 55 gallon drums of magnesium turnings in the back-- I know OSHA or some other agency would likely have shut them down long ago these days. But we managed to climb the fence and steal a few paper grocery bags partially filled with it. What a fourth of July we had that year. We'd take smaller lunch-bag size paper bags, line the bottom with about a half inch of shavings, roll it up into a flat packet about 3-1/2 x 5 inches, and take them to the fireworks at the lake front. Up on the hill, away from the crowds, we'd line up a few about 10 feet apart and stake them to the ground with a sparkler. Plenty hot to ignite the magnesium. The sparker would burn down to the packet, which would then go up in a brilliant display, visible from all over the place. I suppose we had little idea how dangerous it was to store the stuff in the house and carry it around. At 09:17 AM 4/18/2005 -0700, you wrote: >Many years ago, I did some machine work on magnesium and kept the chips. >At some point, I wanted to see how it would burn and put a small pile of >chips on the sidewalk and lit it with a match. Burned *very* nicely all >the way up to the time the concrete exploded from all the heat being >generated (and probably moisture from rain the day before.) It left a >scar above one eye and put a hole in my dads brand new convertable top. >People still wonder how I managed to live this long :). > > > > Alex wrote: > > >> No need to worry - trying to get a magnesium case to burn is _hard_ > > > > > > Actually, it's very easy. You just grind it up into powder first. > > > Time-consuming, but not particularly difficult. > > > > > Once a small part is ignited, it will burn quite well in solid chunks if > > it gets enough oxygen. > > A bit of iron oxide can make the situation very interesting. > > > > Drilling or grinding magnesium without proper precautions is risky. > > Welding is done with inert gas, so that is usually quite safe. > > > > -- > > Bj??rn > > [Computing] "The complex-type shall be a simple-type." --ISO 10206:1991 (Extended Pascal) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB ADDRESS http//www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Apr 18 18:19:29 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:19:29 -0400 Subject: Amigo computer, Amigo disk protocol (was Re: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A, VT420 composite video) In-Reply-To: <48686.207.145.53.202.1113864693.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504182319.j3INJUbK029040@mail.bcpl.net> On 18 Apr 2005 at 15:51, Eric Smith wrote: > It was designed for the Amigo computer, AKA HP-300, which is why it's > called Amigo protocol. The HP 3000 Series 33 also used the Amigo protocol. > The Computer History Museum recently got an Amigo, and Ken Sumrall, > Stan Sieler, and I would like to run it someday. Anybody got docs > (beyond what's already on bitsavers) or software? I have the HP Journals that described the 300: June 1979 A Business Computer for the 1980s The Integrated Display System and Terminal Access Method Reducing the Cost of Program Development Managing Data: HP 300 Files and Data Bases An Easy-to-Use Report Generation Language HP 300 Business BASIC Innovative Package Design Enhances HP 300 Effectiveness July 1979 Cost-Effective Hardware for a Compact Integrated Business Computer A Computer Input/Output System Based on the HP Interface Bus A Small, Low-Cost 12-Megabyte Fixed Disc Drive An Innovative Programming and Operating Console AMIGO/300: A Friendly Operating System Configuring and Launching the AMIGO/300 System A Multiple-Output Switching Power Supply for Computer Applications Don't know how much help they'd be, though. -- Dave From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Apr 18 18:45:31 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:45:31 -0400 Subject: Jupiter J12 Message-ID: <20050418234531.EPBH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi Guys, I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on this computer called "Jupiter J12": http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html I don't - anyone got any information I can pass on ? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Apr 18 18:57:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:57:33 -0400 Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: <20050418234531.EPBH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050418234531.EPBH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On 4/18/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on this > computer called "Jupiter J12": > > http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html > > I don't - anyone got any information I can pass on ? That sure looks like Qbus fingers on those boards... it would be odd to copy DEC's proportions and not their bus logic, but that's entirely possible. With a 68010 CPU, that screams "UNIX" to me (the differences between the 68000 and 68010 make virtual memory implementation practical. Besides that, the only reason to go with the more expensive processor is "loop mode" (a one-instruction cache that makes DBcc loops faster by eliminating the fetch cycle once the loop is started). The RGB output also supports the possibility it's a UNIX workstation. I don't know anything about the Jupiter, per se, but comparisons with DEC boards of the era might be illuminating. Checking what bus pins are used might be a useful exercise, to confirm if it's Qbus or not. -ethan From James at jdfogg.com Mon Apr 18 19:01:59 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:01:59 -0400 Subject: Jupiter J12 Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458EB@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on > this computer called "Jupiter J12": > > http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html > > I don't - anyone got any information I can pass on ? >From the pics and the joysticks on the keyboard I'd guess this was for some sort of video editing. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 18 18:20:08 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:20:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Power Supply for Laser XT Computer In-Reply-To: <20050418000504.55352.qmail@web30614.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "Al Hartman" at Apr 17, 5 05:05:04 pm Message-ID: > > Well... > > The power Adapter for my Apple IIC isn't compatible > with the Laser 128. > > It needs +/- 5V and +/- 12V. > > Does anyone have such a power supply, or know where I > could get one? Does anyone _not_ have such a PSU ? More seriously, what about an old PC/XT or PC/AT supply? You'd have to hack about with the output connectors. -tony From medavidson at mac.com Mon Apr 18 19:07:03 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:07:03 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Apr 8, 2005, at 3:25 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > On Apr 8, 2005, at 2:59 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> Mark Davidson wrote: >> >>> An update... >>> >>> As I write this, my girlfriend is at home waiting for the delivery >>> truck to show up with the Eclipse... I'm sure she'll call me when it >>> arrives and sees how big it is. *grin* >>> >>> In any case, it's going in the garage for now... when I get back >>> from vacation, I'll be able to get started on making it work. >>> Photos to follow... >> >> Better have your girl friend sit shotgun until you get back from you >> vacation >> the subject line is "DG Eclipse available ..." :) I'd check the >> packing anyhow >> before you leave just to confurm it got there safely. Ok, I'm back from my vacation... I guess you could say that taking my girlfriend on a cruise to Mexico was my way of saying "thanks, honey!" for putting up with my collecting. *grin* In any case, i had ZERO time before leaving to check anything out. I've taken some photos of the newly arrived Eclipse (still in packing and palleted) that I'll post tonight or tomorrow. I plan on keeping a log and photo page of my attempts to bring this beast online, so I'll keep the list updated. Mark From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Apr 18 19:16:51 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:16:51 -0400 Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:01:59 EDT." <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458EB@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200504190016.j3J0Gq4P022124@mwave.heeltoe.com> "James Fogg" wrote: >> I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on >> this computer called "Jupiter J12": >> >> http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html >> >> I don't - anyone got any information I can pass on ? > >>From the pics and the joysticks on the keyboard I'd guess this was for >some sort of video editing. > I can't access the pics (yahoo says it's over quota) but I used to use some boxes (think they were 68k based) made by Jupiter as "smart frame buffers". As I recall they basically had rs-232 in and RGB (coax) out. They knew how to do lots of color drawing primatives into a local frame buffer. I think the one I used was originally used to do IC layout and was connected to a VAX (but it was a long time ago). They may have had a keyboard and joystick also. I only used the frame buffer to draw teapots :-) -brad From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 19:25:57 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: <200504190016.j3J0Gq4P022124@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: Your message of "Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:01:59 EDT." <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A0458EB@sbs.jdfogg.com> <200504190016.j3J0Gq4P022124@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <54530.207.145.53.202.1113870357.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Brad wrote: > They may have had a keyboard and joystick also. I only used the frame > buffer to draw teapots :-) What, no test images of Lenna (sometimes known as Lena)? For shame! Eric From chenmel at earthlink.net Mon Apr 18 19:50:12 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:50:12 -0500 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <33628.64.169.63.74.1113778872.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <26c11a64050417152622ddbd5b@mail.gmail.com> <33628.64.169.63.74.1113778872.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050418195012.445a982a.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:01:12 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Dan wrote: > > What machine are you talking about ?, Do you mean a 512k block size > > ie. Dec, Sun, mac etc. > > That's 512 *byte* block size, not K. As opposed to the normal 2048 > byte(2K) block size. > > Macs do not need 512 byte block CD-ROM drives. Only older non-PC > workstations and servers normally need that. > My understanding is that newer Power Macs that run Open Firmware need the 512 byte block. My experience has been that the drives I've pulled from PCI Power Macs will boot in Sun hardware. Please correct me if my assumptions are wrong. From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 19:50:17 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 17:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPIB fundamentals (was Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A, VT420 composite video) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050419005017.67302.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks for the help Steve. How something simple like a printer ? I have two HPIB printers, one a full-size HP line printer and the other a 2225 ThinkJet. Having either printer hooked up to Linux would actually be quite useful. -Dave --- Steve Robertson wrote: > Do you have any other HPIB devices? If so, I'll help > you understand how > to talk to them before tackling the disk drive. > > See ya, SteveRob > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Plan great trips with Yahoo! Travel: Now over 17,000 guides! http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 18 20:01:21 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:01:21 -0500 Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: <200504190016.j3J0Gq4P022124@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504190016.j3J0Gq4P022124@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050418195719.04e4c830@mail> At 07:16 PM 4/18/2005, Brad Parker wrote: >"James Fogg" wrote: >>> I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on >>> this computer called "Jupiter J12": >>> >>> http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html A bit of Googling... The company's still alive, with the same logo, now focusing on display walls: http://www.jupiter.com/ Their "about" page says "Jupiter Systems began operation in 1982. Our first product, introduced in October of that year, was a high performance, high-resolution color graphics terminal designed to provide display capability not available from commodity products. To this day Jupiter is still fully committed to the specialized display market." A resume: http://home.comcast.net/~jaswensen/resume/resume.html "9/82-3/83: Engineer, Jupiter Systems, Alameda, California. Early in my graduate studies I worked at Jupiter Systems, a company developing computer graphics hardware. My duties included the development of computer graphics software, as well as the analysis of an advanced graphics processor design. " - John From david_comley at yahoo.com Mon Apr 18 20:05:43 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050419010543.46609.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It does appear to be the 4 x 1.15MB version. There's an HP warranty label on the back that dates it to 1982. Crumbs. I'm glad I lugged it home. --- "Joe R." wrote: > they're even there. BTW if your drive is configured > as four floppy drives > then it should be valuable and VERY desirable to the > HP collectors. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 20:06:49 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 rcini at optonline.net wrote: > I was able to get binary copies of some Altair paper tapes but none of > them came with manuals. I believe that they can be loaded with the > Altair Multi-Boot Loader, which I do not have. Did you pay a license fee to Bill Gates? If not, he might get very angry with you and post a long diatribe to the CC list about how software pirates are a hurting good software developers. "Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby market with good software."* Hahahaha. * http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 18 20:15:41 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:15:41 -0700 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R (long) Message-ID: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> In 1999, I went to work for Philips, managing customer support for CD burners and DVD burners. State of the art then was 2X, going to 4X. There were very few suppliers of RW media or burners; Sony had the biggest market share but exited quickly to free up capacity for the PlayStation 2. Philips had a large lab in Hasselt, Belgium. One section was to test all media in the marketplace to see that it was within spec, would work on the Philips' drives. And most importantly, that it was legal; ie paid the license fees to the patent owners - Philips, Sony, HP etc. CD-R and CD-RW fees are a huge source of income. And that little logo on the doors of drives also means that they paid the fees, another large source of revenue. This IP is agressively enforced. The test lab was fascinating. They went through thousands of disks a month. Various offices of Philips around the world would buy the media and send it in for testing and fee verification. Hong Kong, Taipei, and Seoul all sent in big boxes every month. There were many tools used to verify the p[hysical parameters and the electrical. They even had a calibrated dust machine to test door seals and dust read through. It was literally a chamber that would be filled with different particle sizes of fine dust for hours on end. I also got to visit the R&D lab in Eindhoven, where the original work on CDs took place. The still have the original CD that was the first to be read. And it can still be read. All of this leads up to some of the information being tossed out on this thread. I'll try to put down what I know. 1. There are very few high volume suppliers in the world of good tight tolerance polycarbonate disks. They have a huge investment in automated manufacturing equipment. Just like ICs makers, the start up costs prevent most companies from entering the market. 2. Thus, most CD-Rs and DVD+/-Rs come from a small number of physical plants. In 2000, you could count them on one hand. Since then, they may have doubled. 3. The major differences in media came from the dye and the process to deposit the dye. Many companies (such as Philips, HP, Memorex, TDK) have a propietory dye they have developed themselves. They contract out the manufacturing of the actual disks. As with any outsourcing, some companies may have multiple sources for the same part number. 4. Getting these processes under control takes time. The quality of parts made this year is orders of magnitude better than it was in 2000 and 2001. If you are making decisions based on media purchased a few years ago, your data points don't reflect what is out there today. This is one of the reasons for the varied experiences on the same media. The factories could be different, the processes better, the formula changed. But the brand and model number could be the same. 5. Saying a certain brand is crap, and another outstanding may be only a personal bias. For example, in the ealy days of DVD+RW disks, I visited the factory that Philips used for their brand name. In the same building, I saw production lines for the other 5 companies shipping DVD+RW at that time. In other words, it all came from the same factory! A couple of days later, I was in CompUSA and salesman lectured me on how one brand was so bad they didn't carry it any more; but Brand X really had their act together. Both brands literally came from the same line and dye process - they were under a cross licensing agreement. 6. There CAN be very real differences of user experiences. But media is not the only factor, not even the biggest factor. Just like magnetic media, these are complex systems of media, read/write channels,OPU construction, chip sets, software and firmware. 7. Lasers are an exception. There were only 2 laser sources in 2000 for CD-R devices. They used the Seagate "waterfall" priciple: the tightest spec parts went to the biggest buyer or payer of the best prices. Further down, parts with wider specs went to the next tier of OEMs. Finally at the bottom, what's left went to the companies you never heard of - they don't sell in the US marketplace for obvious reasons. The lasers go into OPUs (Optical Pick Up Units). There are again only a handful of OPU suppliers in the world. For a long time, if you bought a CD-R drive, the OPU came from one of two companies, regardless of the brand of the drive. Today 3 companies still have most of the market. 8. Another factor being ignored in this dicussion is the progress made in improving reliability. The CD recordable market went from 2X to 52X in around 3 years. Depending on how you count, that was 10 or 11 generations. Entire new chip sets and suppliers suddenly appeared, leveraging of the previous generations. New features were added. The firmware solved the over/under run problems, then the tracking at higher RPM, then the read through scratches, thermal compensation for thinner dye etc. Recently, the first SATA drives showed up. Unless you buy new drives every six months, your experience on a given drive and media can be radically different from somebody else with the same combination but newer/older than you. 9. After being involved with tens of thousands of disks burned, I have data that shows very little difference in performance from one type of media over another. There ARE some really crappy disks coming out of China - I've seen some I could read a newspaper through. Another factory ships everything pre-scratched. But with rare exceptions, these disks never reach the US or Europe. If you have personal preferences that lead you to pick one brand over another, go with it, But base your decision on the results of YOUR drive with YOUR media. If you run into a nay-sayer for a particular type, ask for his data - what drive, what media etc. The hits being given to certain suppliers or factories are probably not based on large scale testing on multiple drives. Some of these opinions don't sound like they are based on data at all. The current quality and state of the art at some of the companies being run down in this forum are excellent. It is probably 90-10 a drive or software problem rather than a media issue. Make your decisions on your data, not someone else's bias. Billy From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 20:14:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <1113865622.12132.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 15:40 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as > > does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated > > ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically > > susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about > > them? > > Yep, I've not seen it on much else. Digico springs to mind, plus a > couple of others that we have whose names escape me right now - but it's > almost exclusively the HP stuff. Another product where you see this effect consistently is with ADM 3A terminals. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 20:28:29 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58124.207.145.53.202.1113874109.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Sellam wrote: > Did you pay a license fee to Bill Gates? If not, he might get very angry > with you and post a long diatribe to the CC list about how software > pirates are a hurting good software developers. > > "Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and > deluge the hobby market with good software."* He's hired a lot more than ten programmers. Where's the deluge of good software? Gates further wrote about unauthorized copying of his software: "One thing you do do is prevent good software from being written." Strangely enough, paying good money for it ALSO seems to prevent good software from being written by MS. Wait a minute, I searched a bit and found the deluge of good software. It's free software and open source software. Seemingly little or no involvement by MS at all. Eric From rcini at optonline.net Mon Apr 18 20:39:41 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:39:41 -0400 Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c54480$a868cbb0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> I've paid thousands of dollars in the M$ tax over the years so he owes me. This time, the stuff I got was all non-Microsoft. I do love that "Letter to the Editor" whining piece he did. Soooo classic. Soooo prescient. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:07 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Altair MBL source On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 rcini at optonline.net wrote: > I was able to get binary copies of some Altair paper tapes but none of > them came with manuals. I believe that they can be loaded with the > Altair Multi-Boot Loader, which I do not have. Did you pay a license fee to Bill Gates? If not, he might get very angry with you and post a long diatribe to the CC list about how software pirates are a hurting good software developers. "Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and deluge the hobby market with good software."* Hahahaha. * http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From damosan at comcast.net Mon Apr 18 20:46:32 2005 From: damosan at comcast.net (Damond Walker) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:46:32 -0400 Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: <58124.207.145.53.202.1113874109.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Monday, April 18, 2005, at 09:28 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Wait a minute, I searched a bit and found the deluge of good software. > It's free software and open source software. Seemingly little or no > involvement by MS at all. There is an awful lot of BAD free software as well. The grass is always greener....always. Damo From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 20:53:16 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 18:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> References: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <58558.207.145.53.202.1113875596.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Billy wrote: > 3. The major differences in media came from the dye and the process to > deposit the dye. And the composition, thickness and uniformity of the reflective layer, and the tolerance of the centering (spiral center vs. spindle hole center), and the wear of the stamper, and a myriad of other characteristics. The Red Book and Orange Book have a huge list of parameters and their allowable ranges, and any one of them screwed up will yield unreliable media. It's not just the dye and deposition process by a long shot. What you're saying about recent writable DVD media is not unlike how the situation used to be with writable CD media. But there *are* a lot more manufacturers of writeable CDs now. Maybe there aren't many sources of bare polycarbonate discs, but everything else in the process is done by many vendors. > Thus, most CD-Rs and DVD+/-Rs come from a small number of physical > plants. In 2000, you could count them on one hand. Since then, they > may have doubled. For CD-R and CD-RW, it has far more than doubled. > There ARE some really crappy disks coming out of China - I've seen some > I could read a newspaper through. [...] But with rare exceptions, these > disks never reach the US or Europe. Rare, my ass! In six different stores in three different major US cities I have had no trouble spotting multiple brands of that crap. It's routinely advertised as store specials in the local newspapers. Usually with "no returns" in fine print. Lots of the stuff *does* make it to the US, precisely because there isn't any accountability for it. If you have a bad disc (or a bad spindle), who are you going to complain to? Stores buy it because they know there are gullible customers they can flog it off to. > 5. Saying a certain brand is crap, and another outstanding may be only > a personal bias. No. Saying that media from CMC Magnetics is crap is a statement of fact, backed up by much evidence collected over a period of years. CMC Magnetics discs purchased last month were not any better than those purchased three years ago. > If you have personal preferences that lead you to pick one brand over > another, go with it, But base your decision on the results of YOUR > drive with YOUR media. Multiple sources of CMC Magnetics media tested on thirteen different drives from multiple vendors and of different generations from 1994 through 2005. The CMC Magnetics discs are just crap, pure and simple. Readers: Toshiba, TDK, Teac, Philips, Sony, Plextor Burners: Yamaha, Plextor, Toshiba, TDK, Liteon, Sony, Plextor Also, the fact that TDK has at times in the past shipped CMC Magnetics media under the TDK brand does tell me something very important about the TDK brand. Even though TDK might not be shipping CMC Magnetics media today, there's no way in hell I'll ever buy writable optical media from TDK again. Not because it's crap today; since I haven't tried it recently I don't know. But instead, because it is proof positive that TDK does not perform adequate qualification of their suppliers. Thus there is no way to buy TDK optical media and have any reasonable expectation that it is not crap. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 18 21:01:22 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: References: <58124.207.145.53.202.1113874109.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <58683.207.145.53.202.1113876082.squirrel@207.145.53.202> I wrote: > Wait a minute, I searched a bit and found the deluge of good software. > It's free software and open source software. Seemingly little or no > involvement by MS at all. Damond wrote: > There is an awful lot of BAD free software as well. Sure. But it's usually easy to do some research with Google to find out what other people think of it. Or just to try it out. When was the last time Microsoft offered to let you just try out a copy of Exchange Server or SQL Server for a while before you decide that you (don't) want to use it? Sturgeon's law is that ninety percent of everything is crap. I would amend that to say that the 90% is a lower bound. For some things, the percentage is much higher. MS software is in that category. At best, it's mediocre. But usually it's worse. The last products that they made that I actually considered "good" were MACRO-80, FORTRAN-80, LINK-80, and MBASIC. Now all they care about is adding features, because that's what drives sales. Bill Gates has publicly stated in an interview that they care more about features than fixing bugs. I didn't find the statement to be the least bit surprising, but rather the fact that he was willing to state it publicly. For the past two years they've claimed that their focus is on security, yet what has come out of Redmond in that time shows little or no sign of better security, and still has tons of new features. Apparently paying lip service to people's concerns over security also must help sales. Eric From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 21:18:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 19:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: <000001c54480$a868cbb0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Richard A. Cini wrote: > I've paid thousands of dollars in the M$ tax over the years so he owes me. > This time, the stuff I got was all non-Microsoft. > > I do love that "Letter to the Editor" whining piece he did. Soooo classic. > Soooo prescient. Maybe he decided that since he couldn't get what he thought his software was worth that he'd lower it to the level consistent with what he was getting. Then when he became a billionaire 50 times over, he forgot (or forgot how) to actually start writing good software consistent with the money it was making ;) Another worthless message for your consideration. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Apr 18 21:50:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:50:28 -0600 Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <426471F4.10809@jetnet.ab.ca> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >Maybe he decided that since he couldn't get what he thought his software >was worth that he'd lower it to the level consistent with what he was >getting. Then when he became a billionaire 50 times over, he forgot (or >forgot how) to actually start writing good software consistent with the >money it was making ;) > > > Well I don't consider BASIC or other M$ products quality products in the 1st place. Mr Bill is known for marketing not programing software. I think I read that productivity has gone down since the 90's as you have more lost work do to computer crashes. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 18 22:16:53 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:16:53 -0500 Subject: Altair MBL source References: <426471F4.10809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <005c01c5448e$3ff91360$9e3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "woodelf" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:50 PM > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>Maybe he decided that since he couldn't get what he thought his software >>was worth that he'd lower it to the level consistent with what he was >>getting. Then when he became a billionaire 50 times over, he forgot (or >>forgot how) to actually start writing good software consistent with the >>money it was making ;) >> > Well I don't consider BASIC or other M$ products quality products in the > 1st place. > Mr Bill is known for marketing not programing software. I think I read > that productivity > has gone down since the 90's as you have more lost work do to computer > crashes. I often hear peple talk about Willy boy, they assume he went to MIT or some other techie school. He dropped out of Harvard school of Business. He dropped out when he figured out how to get rich not because he was stupid. He may not know much about computers or quality of products but he knows how to make $. Give Willy boy his due. Just be glad he is the leader of most everything computer related and not Air traffic! Having most peoples computers crash is a bother but you get to walk away! Just imagine flying across the country and in mid flight having to shut everything down and re-booting or even worse having to reload the airplane in mid flight. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From cfandt at netsync.net Mon Apr 18 22:18:22 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:18:22 -0400 Subject: Got the HP9k system booted! was: New find & HP-UX p/w? In-Reply-To: <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050418165435.026a8208@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 15:09 08-04-05, Carlos Murillo said something like: >"Christian R. Fandt" wrote: > > Upon initial bootup there may be HP-UX of some version found running on it. > > It may need a password. How would I get around it, if possible, and set my > > own? > > > > It has that Series 300 DOS Coprocessor, 98286A, which I presume either runs > > under HP-UX as a task or independently directly under DOS 3.x. That is if > > indeed the 7958B HDD was not wiped during demil before the military > > surplused the system. I have no idea what to expect as I'd never booted the > > thing before. Any HP-UX "features" I should know about before getting too > > far into running it? I do have a doc set for HP-UX 5.5. > >Unfortunately, the series 300/400 PROMS did not allow much interaction >with the boot process; in particular, they did not allow loading the >seconday boot loader in a boot-management mode like the series 700 did >(which allowed you to pass parameters to the kernel so that it >boots in single user mode). > >Once you choose the drive that you want it to boot from, it will just go >through the complete OS startup process. > >One method that has been reported to work once out of five times or so >is to let hpux boot all the way to the login prompt, power-cycle the >computer and drives, and when it reboots and starts fsck-ing the >disks (there should be a /etc/bcheckrc: " message on the console) >repeatedly type ctrl-C, ctrl-\ or shift-(DEL/ESC) (DEL/ESC is a key on the >left side of HP-HIL keyboards). I don't remember the exact key combination >that was used, but it did work once for me about ten years ago with hpux 9.0 >and a model 380; it interrupts and gives you a single user prompt. >Just finish fsck-ing stuff, mount -a and edit the /etc/passwd file. Okay, we've got success up to a limit -and that limit is the need for a login name and password. There is indeed HP-UX of some heretofore unknown version loaded. The NEC monitor I recently found at the local Salvation Army was able to be brightened up by adjusting the G2 gun drive controls a little. Yippee! A decent $3.00 17" multi-input monitor!!! Carlos, you evidently know HP-UX on these machines, so I'll address this section to you. Other folks may chime-in too if they have additional observations. This thread will add to our archival information on these machines -of which I've seen relatively little over the years up to now. Please note that I know only a little about *nix systems and am willing and able to listen and learn from you. I've had to work with an SVR4 '486 box back in the mid-90's at work and have forgotten 90% of what I picked up then. Age and disuse of that brief UNIX experience, I guess. I got the box and software tucked away here at home as the application was obsoleted in 1994 or '95 and I rescued the box and floppy disks from salvage. So anyway, per your instructions above, I booted to the Console Login and cycled power off/on. This forced the machine to fsck. After seeing the "/etc/bcheckrc: " I chose the first option you offered, CTRL-C. That did nothing. I tried CTRL-DEL/ESC next. This stopped the fsck process. Here's what it said: " Interrupt FSCK INTERRUPTED STARTING A SHELL FOR MANUAL fsck, ^D WHEN FILE SYSTEM FIXED (in bcheckrc) # " Was that block cursor the single user prompt?? What is bcheckrc and why am I in it (other than the obvious fsck)? I hit ^D which caused the machine to appear to finish its fsck. The Console Login prompt appears again. This is back to where I started. Hmmm, let's try your last interruption suggestion . . . I power cycle off/on and let the machine completely finish its fsck process and boot to the Console Login prompt in order to get the fsck process completed correctly. I power cycle again to force a fsck and after the "/etc/bcheckrc: " appears I hit CTRL-\. The results were different. Here's what it said: " 11 Quit - core dumped UNEXPECTED ERROR DURING fsck -P, RUN fsck INTERACTIVELY! STARTING A SHELL FOR MANUAL fsck, ^D WHEN FILE SYSTEM FIXED (in bcheckrc) # " Well, an error and core dump seem to not be the method of choice. This is where I gave up. So, I power cycled the machine in order to correctly complete the fsck, shut it off and put it away until I could hear from the collective expertise from the list. >Not for the faint of heart, I know. Nothing like this bothers me if I have some kind of direction in which to point myself. I'm like Tony, I'll tackle anything hardware-wise, but this software needs a little bit of coaching. >Now, the 375 has built-in scsi if I remember correctly... that was the >difference wrt the 370 I think. If you need to install hpux 9.x >contact me off list. On this 375 there is an HPIB connector bolted into the opening labeled SCSI/HS HPIB. I see a small daughter board attached to the back of the HPIB connector with a ribbon cable extending down to a header on the main CPU board. There is also a fifty-pin header on the main board meant, evidently, for connecting the SCSI option in place of the HS HPIB option. I would bet that the SCSI connector is the standard 50-pin Micro Ribbon connector used for SCSI-1 and fits in place of that HS HPIB connector. There is a second HPIB connector right on the main CPU meant for I/O and other slow speed peripherals and not mass storage like the HS HPIB is meant for. Do you know if simply removing the HS HPIB connector assembly and inserting a 50-pin ribbon cable into that 50-pin header would enable use of SCSI?? Or is there a daughter card, ? la the HS HPIB, involved? Evidently cannot use both (:-\ Another important question is whether this machine can be made y2k compliant? I had to replace the 3V lithium coin cell on the main CPU board and the machine prompted for a date/time upon bootup. Wouldn't take anything above 99 so I set it at 95, exactly 10 years in the past. Date entry is in the form of MMDDhhmm[yy]. When 05 is entered for yy the date always displays as 1970. Seems 70 to 99 only work. The EEPROM firmware (chip location U47) on my machine is part number 1818-5062 and *may* be the latest version. Upon startup the machine announces: "BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 Nov 90". I make that version assumption by believing the firmware upgrade required on this website: http://www.blobulent.com:16080/hp300/upgrade/hp380.html would be pretty much the last version released since the webpage had been made some years after my machine (ca 1991) was made. Looks like we're SOL, but that needs to be confirmed by the 9000/300 experts out there. That upgrade to a 380 looks tempting as my machine is just the one they're talking about. Very simple, except for the compilation of a new kernel in Step 1. I'm primarily a hardware guy. But, I'd need to use the machine frequently to really justify messing around with the upgrade. Thanks for the help again! Regards, Chris F. NNNN >-- >Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at cuthispambait.ieee.org >Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia >---- >"Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like >the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 18 22:48:54 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:48:54 -0700 Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) Message-ID: <42647FA6.4060608@ix.netcom.com> Eric wrote: > > And the composition, thickness and uniformity of the reflective layer, > and the tolerance of the centering (spiral center vs. spindle hole > center), and the wear of the stamper, and a myriad of other > characteristics. The Red Book and Orange Book have a huge list of > parameters and their allowable ranges, and any one of them screwed up > will yield unreliable media. It's not just the dye and deposition > process by a long shot. Of course I simplified to keep this at a reasonable length. There are dozens of parameters requiring control to make readable media. But the major one that differs by brands from the same factory is dye formula. Most of the other parameters would be the same. One key your didn't mention is hardness and scratches. But the parameters you did mentioned ARE controlled by the tolerances in the Red/Orange/White etc books. If the witness disks don't meet the standard, the license could be pulled. These parameters have to be in control to qualify for carrying the logo. More importantly, they have to be in control to go into high volume production and get decent yields. Without tight quality, a factory can't meet its own numbers. > What you're saying about recent writable DVD media is not unlike > how the situation used to be with writable CD media. But there *are* > a lot more manufacturers of writeable CDs now. Maybe there aren't > many sources of bare polycarbonate discs, but everything else in the > process is done by many vendors. > >> Thus, most CD-Rs and DVD+/-Rs come from a small number of physical >> plants. In 2000, you could count them on one hand. Since then, they >> may have doubled. > > For CD-R and CD-RW, it has far more than doubled. > I think we may be talking apples and oranges. I'm refering to high volume plants - 100+ million units a year. The last industry survey I saw showed only 8 such plants. > Rare, my ass! In six different stores in three different major > US cities I have had no trouble spotting multiple brands of that crap. > It's routinely advertised as store specials in the local newspapers. > Usually with "no returns" in fine print.> Again, the factories and media I'm talking about are mainland China. They don't make it to the US because among other reasons, they don't pay the license fees. The Optical Storage forums watch very closely. As soon as they spot one, they head straight to Customs and plug it. Lots of cooperation these days from Customs given the current political situation. I'm not certain what brand names you are talking about. Two that are showing up in Silicon Valley but aren't very good are GQ and kHypermedia. Are these who you mean? > Lots of the stuff *does* make it to the US, precisely because there > isn't any accountability for it. If you have a bad disc (or a bad > spindle), who are you going to complain to? Stores buy it because > they know there are gullible customers they can flog it off to. For my personal use, I've had no problem taking a spindle back if I get a coaster. Both CompUSA and Fry's have stood behind their sales. Best Buy - I've never had a bad disk. Until I retired, I bought 1.5-2K work disks a month, most through dummy accounts. The people I dealt with were always willing to give a refund. > No. Saying that media from CMC Magnetics is crap is a statement of fact, > backed up by much evidence collected over a period of years. CMC Magnetics > discs purchased last month were not any better than those purchased > three years ago. I just looked at my test numbers from 2002-2004, and I don't see the problems you describe. CMC is not at the top of the list, but neither is close to the bottom. And the tolerances are tighter on more recent disks. > Multiple sources of CMC Magnetics media tested on thirteen different > drives from multiple vendors and of different generations from 1994 > through 2005. The CMC Magnetics discs are just crap, pure and simple. > > Readers: Toshiba, TDK, Teac, Philips, Sony, Plextor > > Burners: Yamaha, Plextor, Toshiba, TDK, Liteon, Sony, Plextor I've tested all those units, though mainly with Philips. Again, my data doesn't match yours. I'm especially surprised that you had burn problems with the Yamaha drive. They are by far the most roboust unit of those you tested. > Also, the fact that TDK has at times in the past shipped CMC Magnetics > media under the TDK brand does tell me something very important about > the TDK brand. Even though TDK might not be shipping CMC Magnetics > media today, there's no way in hell I'll ever buy writable optical media > from TDK again. Not because it's crap today; since I haven't tried it > recently I don't know. But instead, because it is proof positive that > TDK does not perform adequate qualification of their suppliers. Thus > there is no way to buy TDK optical media and have any reasonable > expectation that it is not crap. This is where I cannot agree with you. At Quantum, I had an opportunity to visit TDK head and magnetic media factories in Japan and China. I also took customers with me and they went through the Quality processes of TDK with a fine tooth comb. TDK has a world class quality organization. Later I tested their optical drives and media. Their quality is some of the best in the field. I just looked at the numbers on my DVD Recorder. In the last 18 months, I've used 1200+ DVD+R disks. About 250 of those were TDK. I had 2 bad burns, both just before I lost an OPU. The only other media that I've better luck with is Sony (who doesn't make their own anyway). Look, I'm not trying to change your opinion. You don't like CMC and TDK and feel you have results to prove your case. That is what I was suggesting people should do. My own data doesn't match yours. I don't agree with your conclusions about CMC or TDK. So what? You should buy what you like. I'll buy what I'm comfortable with. I've had good experiences with both. When the price is right, I'll buy them again. Interestingly, I just recieved an eMail with a long complaint about Memorex and how they've never made a good recordable media, DVD or CD. Yet Memorex usually came out high on our testing. By the way I'm curious, what software did you use for this testing - Roxio, Mediostream, Nero, Neo, Pinnacle, Sonic? This is one area where you can get widely divergent results from the same batch of media. Billy From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 22:51:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 20:51:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <005c01c5448e$3ff91360$9e3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > Give Willy boy his due. For...what? Diluting the software market into medocrity at best? > Just be glad he is the leader of most everything computer related and not > Air traffic! > > Having most peoples computers crash is a bother but you get to walk away! Or you get to lose hours, days, perhaps weeks of work, not to mention your productivity, quite possibly your sanity. > Just imagine flying across the country and in mid flight having to shut > everything down and re-booting or even worse having to reload the airplane > in mid flight. It's not for wont of trying. If Bill got his way his software would be everywhere controlling everything. I just realized: I got trolled! ARGH! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 18 22:55:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:55:21 -0400 Subject: Altair MBL source Message-ID: <0IF600LRNDK62V2F@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Altair MBL source > From: Vintage Computer Festival >On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 rcini at optonline.net wrote: > >> I was able to get binary copies of some Altair paper tapes but none of >> them came with manuals. I believe that they can be loaded with the >> Altair Multi-Boot Loader, which I do not have. > >Did you pay a license fee to Bill Gates? If not, he might get very angry >with you and post a long diatribe to the CC list about how software >pirates are a hurting good software developers. > >"Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and >deluge the hobby market with good software."* > >Hahahaha. I laugh too. Myself as one that did buy the first three offered versions of MITS BASIC at the discounted extortion of additional memory I'll say this. It's 30 years later, I stull ahvent gotten a copy of MITS BASIC that wasn't buggy! I'd add that among the users of the day everyone lusted for it and then got is to say "this is really poor" then go of and type in a copy TBX, LLL-basic, or TDL 5k basic and there were more some distinctly better. Many of those were free, some cost money but, on the whole were cheap. When I got my NS* Minidisk system it had basic with the DOS I figured it was just another crappy basic. Turns out it was different than many but it worked, and worked well. Those of us remember when DRI was OS and MS was languages. Some of also remember that many of the MS languages were just a expensive and always a little off from the base languages we knew from minis and the like. So after all these years I'm not surprized nor disappointed. It's what we expected would happen. Allison From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 18 23:02:28 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:02:28 -0700 Subject: At Last - A Control Data 160-A! Message-ID: <426482D4.7040706@ix.netcom.com> Last week, I brought home my very own 160-A. Complete with the 161 typewriter unit and a bunch of spares. I had to move it about 300 miles using a garbage (U-Haul) truck. Put it in the garage, powered it up and it ran! Keyed in a couple of simple memory tests and an adder test. All passed. It was a great day. The 161 typewriter is very very rough. Lots of work to be done here. Heavy rust on the chassis, formica separating from the top, etc. Has anybody on the list had any experience on repainting these old chasses? I'm talking to some body shops, but would like to find a specialty paint within driving distance of Silicon Valley. Any suggestions? I took some pictures of the move, but don't have a place to post them. It's going to be a fun summer. Billy From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 18 23:02:29 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:02:29 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: Message-ID: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 10:51 PM > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> Give Willy boy his due. > > For...what? Diluting the software market into medocrity at best? > >> Just be glad he is the leader of most everything computer related and not >> Air traffic! >> >> Having most peoples computers crash is a bother but you get to walk away! > > Or you get to lose hours, days, perhaps weeks of work, not to mention your > productivity, quite possibly your sanity. > >> Just imagine flying across the country and in mid flight having to shut >> everything down and re-booting or even worse having to reload the >> airplane >> in mid flight. > > It's not for wont of trying. If Bill got his way his software would be > everywhere controlling everything. > > I just realized: I got trolled! ARGH! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] I wasn't trolling, just a little tongue in cheek humor. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 18 23:11:28 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <42647FA6.4060608@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I can't seem to find any of the good quality CD-R recommended by folks in stores so I guess I'll have to order online. The best I could find at Fry's was Maxell CD-R Pro which apparently just has a more scratch-resistant surface. I don't know how the rest of the media is supposed to hold up. I just needed something decent immediately for returning data to clients until I can get some really high quality media for archival purposes. Lots of places are selling Mitsui Gold-standard CD-R for around $1 per unit. Not bad if you really value your data. Mitsui Gold-standard claims to have 200 year reliability and is a good brand according to Eric, and I trust Eric's knowledge and experience when it comes to this stuff. Here's a good site for ordering Mitsui gold as well as Taiyo Yuden and other good quality product, all for good prices: http://www.dsgi.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/cgi-local/pagegen_cdr.pl?U+scstore+wcww0487fff373f3+CDRXX-TG-MAM+prodtmpl_cdr_mitsui.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Mon Apr 18 23:17:19 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 21:17:19 -0700 Subject: Attn: Sellam Message-ID: <4264864F.9050706@ix.netcom.com> Sellam, Are you still interested in the Bernolli box? I have one sitting in the pile waiting for the next freebie electronic garbage run. Alameda county has one every few months. Any way, it's yours if you want it. Was working when last used. Have a few piecces of media buried in the garage - saw them a few weeks ago. If Sellam doesn't want it, anyone else want it? I'll toss in the disks when I find them. Billy From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 19 00:11:35 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. From Tim at rikers.org Tue Apr 19 00:21:22 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:21:22 -0500 Subject: HP-2116A manuals In-Reply-To: <42640414.2050500@Rikers.org> References: <4263F758.8010503@Rikers.org> <42640414.2050500@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <42649552.7080807@Rikers.org> Al, Thanx for the vol3 manual! I'm picturing Al as a wizard in the middle of a massive library. I wonder how close to the truth that is. Still hoping for a vol2. ;-) I'm headed out of town till sunday in case other things want to float to the top. I will have net access though, and I'll grab and read what I can. ;-) My 2116A has this on the back label: SER # 747-00173 MODEL # 2116A M-4 So I guess there is an adendum for the 747- prefix someplace. -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From aek at spies.com Tue Apr 19 00:30:52 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 22:30:52 -0700 Subject: Jupiter J12 Message-ID: Jupiter Systems was a company started by people who originally developed the AED 512 graphics display (I worked at AED in '84 and '85) Looking at the pics, the CPU is an Integrated Solutions QBus 68000 CPU board. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 19 00:27:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2005 23:27:28 -0600 Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: <005c01c5448e$3ff91360$9e3dd7d1@randylaptop> References: <426471F4.10809@jetnet.ab.ca> <005c01c5448e$3ff91360$9e3dd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <426496C0.2070203@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > From: "woodelf" > Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 9:50 PM > >> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >>> Maybe he decided that since he couldn't get what he thought his >>> software >>> was worth that he'd lower it to the level consistent with what he was >>> getting. Then when he became a billionaire 50 times over, he forgot >>> (or >>> forgot how) to actually start writing good software consistent with the >>> money it was making ;) >>> >> Well I don't consider BASIC or other M$ products quality products in >> the 1st place. >> Mr Bill is known for marketing not programing software. I think I >> read that productivity >> has gone down since the 90's as you have more lost work do to >> computer crashes. > > > I often hear peple talk about Willy boy, they assume he went to MIT or > some other techie school. > > He dropped out of Harvard school of Business. He dropped out when he > figured out how to get rich not because he was stupid. > > He may not know much about computers or quality of products but he > knows how to make $. > > Give Willy boy his due. > > Just be glad he is the leader of most everything computer related and > not Air traffic! > > Having most peoples computers crash is a bother but you get to walk away! > > Just imagine flying across the country and in mid flight having to > shut everything down and re-booting or even worse having to reload the > airplane in mid flight. > Can't say "Crash the plane" can you? Now back to Basic and early machines had one good feature -- while not user freindly you did have the advantage of having custom computer control often a 6502 based system that still could be in use today. From swebb at cix.co.uk Mon Apr 18 23:00:00 2005 From: swebb at cix.co.uk (Simon Webb) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Osborne 4 circuit diagram wanted Message-ID: Does anyone have a circuit diagram for an Osborne 4 (otherwise known as Osborne Express, and in the States as Osborne Vixen) we could borrow? Simon Webb Curator, Museum of Computing www.museum-of-computing.org.uk From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 01:02:14 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:02:14 +0800 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050418151920.00c4d270@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050418151920.00c4d270@localhost> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who had answered.. I finally figured out how to wind the beastie, and in the process learnt how the tape-leader interaction can be so precariously based on luck.. :-) It is so astounding that for the tape noose from the cartridge to be extended just so a couple of millimeters enough for the leader head to snag it and for the hook to be retracted all at the same time. *wow* Needless to say I spent many minutes watching the whole thing while it's doing its jig.. :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 01:39:45 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 02:39:45 -0400 Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Al Kossow wrote: > Jupiter Systems was a company started by people who originally > developed the AED 512 graphics > display (I worked at AED in '84 and '85) Ah... good to have the reference. > Looking at the pics, the CPU is an Integrated Solutions QBus 68000 CPU > board. Thanks for IDing it. I've occasionally wanted to run across one of those, mostly because I used to build 68000-based comms cards (which could take a 68010, but we never did that except with our VAXBI card). A COMBOARD isn't suitable for use as a CPU card (it wouldn't be able to arbitrate interrupts or DMA, it's a peripheral), but it'd be fun to team up a 68K CPU with a downline-loadable 68K DMA peripheral. It'd be easy enough to port Minix to that (I already have the Minix sources for the Amiga). The COMBOARD wouldn't handle disks (without a bunch of work), but _does_ provide two serial ports and a printer port. That plus some kind of Qbus mass storage could be a fun little system. So... if anyone runs across one of these Integrated Solutions CPU cards (and doesn't already have plans for it), I'd love to hear about it. -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 19 02:04:58 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:04:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <42647FA6.4060608@ix.netcom.com> References: <42647FA6.4060608@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <32919.64.169.63.74.1113894298.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Billy wrote: > Again, the factories and media I'm talking about are mainland China. > They don't make it to the US because among other reasons, they don't pay > the license fees. The Optical Storage forums watch very closely. As > soon as they spot one, they head straight to Customs and plug it. Yes, I'm sure that's every bit as effective as the ban on Chinese gel candy, which was still on store shelves all over the country. Customs will find a contraband shipment every once in a while, make a big noise about how wonderfully effective they are, and meanwhile 99 other shipments slide right through. > Lots of cooperation these days from Customs given the current political > situation. Sure, enforcing import control for trademark violations on optical media is near the top of the governments priority list for preventing terrrorism. Right. And I've got some nice oceanfront property in Colorado to sell you, too. > I'm not certain what brand names you are talking about. Two that are > showing up in Silicon Valley but aren't very good are GQ and > kHypermedia. Are these who you mean? No, the ones I'm talking about usually don't have any brand name on them at all, and the labels are either in Chinese, really broken English, or a mix of the two. I haven't tried GQ CD-R media. Some people say it's good, others say it's bad. I expect that they probably change OEM suppliers at the drop of a hat. Oddly enough the GQ 8X DVD+R media seems to work better in my Pioneer DVR-108 than most of the name brands. > I'm especially surprised that you had burn problems > with the Yamaha drive. They are by far the most roboust unit of those > you tested. Yes, the Yamaha was the best for any media that was halfway reasonable. Some media is just plain bad, and then it doesn't matter how good the drive is. >> Also, the fact that TDK has at times in the past shipped CMC Magnetics >> media under the TDK brand does tell me something very important about >> the TDK brand. Even though TDK might not be shipping CMC Magnetics >> media today, there's no way in hell I'll ever buy writable optical media >> from TDK again. Not because it's crap today; since I haven't tried it >> recently I don't know. But instead, because it is proof positive that >> TDK does not perform adequate qualification of their suppliers. Thus >> there is no way to buy TDK optical media and have any reasonable >> expectation that it is not crap. > > This is where I cannot agree with you. At Quantum, I had an opportunity > to visit TDK head and magnetic media factories in Japan and China. I > also took customers with me and they went through the Quality processes > of TDK with a fine tooth comb. TDK has a world class quality > organization. For magnetic media, they are superb. Probably has to do with the fact that they make it themselves, rather than just letting bean counters buy the cheapest crap they can find and slap a TDK label on, as they apparently do for CD-R. > Later I tested their optical drives and media. Their quality is some of > the best in the field. I just looked at the numbers on my DVD Recorder. > In the last 18 months, I've used 1200+ DVD+R disks. About 250 of > those were TDK. I had 2 bad burns, both just before I lost an OPU. The > only other media that I've better luck with is Sony (who doesn't make > their own anyway). Could be. I was only talking about CD-R. I bought five spindles after after they switched from Taiyo-Yuden to CMC Magnetics, and the failure rate on all my burners was >66% (vs. 0% for Taiyo-Yuden). TDK didn't want to refund my money because they said my burner was broken. They didn't seem to care that one of the burners it didn't work in had their own name on it, or that all my burners had no trouble with other brands of discs. > Look, I'm not trying to change your opinion. No, but I'm trying to prevent other people from going though what I did. > By the way I'm curious, what software did you use for this testing - > Roxio, Mediostream, Nero, Neo, Pinnacle, Sonic? This is one area where > you can get widely divergent results from the same batch of media. cdrecord under Linux, and when that had problems, whatever Windows crap (crippleware Roxio, I think) that was bundled with the TDK burner. Same results with both programs, on all eight of my burners. I don't see how different software can make a difference for recording a single data session in track-at-once mode with no buffer underruns. The software tells the drive, "burn this data", sends 650MB of data to it, then says "finalize the session". Not much to go wrong in there. It's not like there are mysterious magic numbers that have to be sent in the ATAPI commands such that one program is going to have better magic numbers than another. It's all documented in the MMC and SFF specs. Back before those specs were widely available, I had to reverse-engineer the necessary commands from an analyzer trace of a Windows program burning a disc in order to make cdwrite on Linux support the first HP burner. So I do have half a clue about the command sets. Anyhow, if you wanted to do something more complicated, I could imagine that some programs might be prone to screwing it up, but recording a single data session in Mode 1 is about as trivial as you can get. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 19 02:10:19 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: At Last - A Control Data 160-A! In-Reply-To: <426482D4.7040706@ix.netcom.com> References: <426482D4.7040706@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <32975.64.169.63.74.1113894619.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Billy wrote: > Last week, I brought home my very own 160-A. Complete with the 161 > typewriter unit and a bunch of spares. I had to move it about 300 miles > using a garbage (U-Haul) truck. VERY COOL! > Put it in the garage, powered it up and it ran! What??? You didn't test the DC power supplies first? Naughty, naughty! > Keyed in a couple of > simple memory tests and an adder test. All passed. It was a great day. Sounds that way. > The 161 typewriter is very very rough. Lots of work to be done here. > Heavy rust on the chassis, formica separating from the top, etc. Has > anybody on the list had any experience on repainting these old chasses? > I'm talking to some body shops, but would like to find a specialty > paint within driving distance of Silicon Valley. Los Altos Typewriter. They restored the IBM Model B electric typewriters used as console devices on CHM's IBM 1620 and DEC PDP-1. Don't expect them to do anything with the computer interface part, but they do great work on the typewriter mechanism. Eric From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 19 03:06:43 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:06:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: Jupiter J12" (Apr 18, 19:57) References: <20050418234531.EPBH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <10504190906.ZM1900@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 18 2005, 19:57, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/18/05, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > > > I was just contacted by a guy asking if I have any info on this > > computer called "Jupiter J12": > > > > http://www.geocities.com/australianvintcomp/Jupiter/Jupiter.html > That sure looks like Qbus fingers on those boards... it would be odd > to copy DEC's proportions and not their bus logic, but that's entirely > possible. > > With a 68010 CPU, that screams "UNIX" to me (the differences between > the 68000 and 68010 make virtual memory implementation practical. That's what Cadmus (German CAD systems producer) did with their 680x0 boards; they fit in a normal QBus chassis, use standard QBus peripherals, and run UNIX. I've never owed one, but I've (briefly) used them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 03:22:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 04:22:21 -0400 Subject: Jupiter J12 In-Reply-To: <10504190906.ZM1900@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20050418234531.EPBH3789.orval.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> <10504190906.ZM1900@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Pete Turnbull wrote: > That's what Cadmus (German CAD systems producer) did with their 680x0 > boards; they fit in a normal QBus chassis, use standard QBus > peripherals, and run UNIX. I've never owed one, but I've (briefly) > used them. Perfect... exactly what I was thinking of. It'd be superb to load into one of the three 9-slot Qbus backplanes I have in this former CompuServe X.25 node chassis (RT-11 on an F-11 chip would be another typical example to show off). -ethan From spedraja at ono.com Tue Apr 19 03:46:09 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (spedraja at ono.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:46:09 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower" format with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree comments about the possible expansion of the system with other options: storage (9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity (serial and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this machine only had Unibus and not Massbus. Documentation about the system printed or downloadable would be agreed too. Thanks and Greetings Sergio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 04:14:06 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:14:06 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> References: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> Message-ID: On 4/19/05, spedraja at ono.com wrote: > Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance > in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower" format > with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree > comments about the possible expansion of the system with other options: storage > (9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity (serial > and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this machine > only had Unibus and not Massbus. There were two styles of 11/730, one with the CPU in the middle of a 42" cabinet in its own 10.5"-tall drawer, and disks above and below (the most common configuration was an RL02 on top and an RB80 (121MB pseudo-SMD drive) underneath), and one with, IIRC, a BA-11-type drawer at the top of a 42" cabinet, and cable management space below (and no disks in the CPU cabinet). I used to have one of the first type, and have never seen the second type except in pictures. The 11/730-Z (first type) has a backplane limited to 5MB of RAM, with room for a couple of other internal peripherals. A common add-on was a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1 printer). The RL02 and RB80 were run from a special disk card in slot 1, and appear to VMS as DQA0: and DQA1:. The machine is Unibus-only, and it _is_ possible to run a Unibus cable out and to an ordinary BA-11 with DD11-DK backplanes and the like. Being Unibus, one can attach 3rd party ESDI, SMD, and SCSI controllers, but I dare say you'll have quite a time locating an inexpensive Unibus SCSI controller. It can talk to a DEUNA or DELUA Ethernet interface, but either of those might draw too much power to mount internally. Same goes for a UDA-50. The only compatibilty issue is power draw. If you have an external BA-11, you are good to go for these power hogs. You'll need a boot cartridge with this - just like the VAX-11/780 powers up stupid, the 11/730 does as well. Where the 780 has a PDP-11 processor that loads up microcode and boot images and whatnot from an RX01 floppy, the 730 has an 8085 that loads things up from TU-58 tape. Check your tape drives for gooey capstans. If the rubber seems like it's melting or turning into something that resembles a black jellybean, do *not* mount tapes. You will have to refurb the drive first. Tygon aquarium hose from the hardware store (.500"?) works well for this. Your boot tape has to match the OS you'll be running - there were tapes for VMS and tapes for Ultrix. I presume there were also tapes for BSD, but I only ever ran BSD on 11/750s, not 11/730s. The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is 30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We used to use ours at work first for an office machine (MASS-11 and VMS MAIL) for a satellite operation, and later for a VMS 5.0 link machine for software development. It would run for months at a time without problem. The max memory is a bit limiting; I would be surprised if you could run VMS 6.x on it, but I know VMS 5.0 runs. It was developed in the days where 2MB-3MB would suffice for a system with a small number of users, and was more-or-less rendered obsolete with the coming of the MicroVAX-II about 4 years later, with up to 16MB of RAM, a faster processor, 5.25" disks, and a much smaller box (but not a much smaller price tag, only slightly smaller). Good luck with it. If you want to play with a Unibus VAX, it's the second smallest one, and not bad for a single-user VMS 4 or VMS 5 system. Hope some of this helps, -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 19 05:43:19 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:43:19 +0000 Subject: paging Jay: mail server change?? Message-ID: <1113907399.13610.31.camel@weka.localdomain> Jay, Has something changed with the list software setup? Since Sunday night or thereabouts Yahoo seems to be tagging *all* messages from the list as spam for some reason. Could well be that someone at Yahoo screwed up of course (although messages to my other mailing lists seem ok) and blacklisted everything from classiccmp.org :-( (copied to the list in case this has suddenly started affecting anyone else) I can't see anything obvious in the headers from having a (really) quick glance. Last 'normal' message I seem to have was at 'Sun, 17 Apr 2005 21:48:11' (classiccmp time :-) - after that time everything's being tagged as spam. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 19 05:58:45 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:58:45 +0000 Subject: HP 700/RX xterm - RAM failure Message-ID: <1113908325.13593.36.camel@weka.localdomain> Just picked up an HP 700/RX xterm (would be nice with our big HP T500) - it's failing on-board RAM test saying that DRAM #6 is bad. Obvious question - anyone have manuals or other docs and can tell me which #6 is? :-) There are 16 ram chips on the board in a square, but no indication as to which number 1 is or how the numbering goes... None are obviously hotter than the others. (they're standard SMD parts, so I should be able to cull one from an old PC SIMM) cheers Jules From spedraja at ono.com Tue Apr 19 06:38:47 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (spedraja at ono.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:38:47 +0200 Subject: Asunto: Re: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <424AACBE000105FC@resmta03.ono.com> Thanks, Ethan. This information is helpful by now. Cheers Sergio >-- Mensaje original -- >Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 05:14:06 -0400 >From: Ethan Dicks >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: VAX-11/730 >Reply-To: Ethan Dicks , > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >On 4/19/05, spedraja at ono.com wrote: >> Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance >> in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower" format >> with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree >> comments about the possible expansion of the system with other options: >storage >> (9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity >(serial >> and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this >machine >> only had Unibus and not Massbus. > >There were two styles of 11/730, one with the CPU in the middle of a >42" cabinet in its own 10.5"-tall drawer, and disks above and below >(the most common configuration was an RL02 on top and an RB80 (121MB >pseudo-SMD drive) underneath), and one with, IIRC, a BA-11-type drawer >at the top of a 42" cabinet, and cable management space below (and no >disks in the CPU cabinet). I used to have one of the first type, and >have never seen the second type except in pictures. > >The 11/730-Z (first type) has a backplane limited to 5MB of RAM, with >room for a couple of other internal peripherals. A common add-on was >a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1 printer). The RL02 and RB80 were run >from a special disk card in slot 1, and appear to VMS as DQA0: and >DQA1:. The machine is Unibus-only, and it _is_ possible to run a >Unibus cable out and to an ordinary BA-11 with DD11-DK backplanes and >the like. > >Being Unibus, one can attach 3rd party ESDI, SMD, and SCSI >controllers, but I dare say you'll have quite a time locating an >inexpensive Unibus SCSI controller. It can talk to a DEUNA or DELUA >Ethernet interface, but either of those might draw too much power to >mount internally. Same goes for a UDA-50. The only compatibilty >issue is power draw. If you have an external BA-11, you are good to go >for these power hogs. > >You'll need a boot cartridge with this - just like the VAX-11/780 >powers up stupid, the 11/730 does as well. Where the 780 has a PDP-11 >processor that loads up microcode and boot images and whatnot from an >RX01 floppy, the 730 has an 8085 that loads things up from TU-58 tape. > Check your tape drives for gooey capstans. If the rubber seems like >it's melting or turning into something that resembles a black >jellybean, do *not* mount tapes. You will have to refurb the drive >first. Tygon aquarium hose from the hardware store (.500"?) works >well for this. Your boot tape has to match the OS you'll be running - >there were tapes for VMS and tapes for Ultrix. I presume there were >also tapes for BSD, but I only ever ran BSD on 11/750s, not 11/730s. > >The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is >30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We >used to use ours at work first for an office machine (MASS-11 and VMS >MAIL) for a satellite operation, and later for a VMS 5.0 link machine >for software development. It would run for months at a time without >problem. The max memory is a bit limiting; I would be surprised if >you could run VMS 6.x on it, but I know VMS 5.0 runs. It was >developed in the days where 2MB-3MB would suffice for a system with a >small number of users, and was more-or-less rendered obsolete with the >coming of the MicroVAX-II about 4 years later, with up to 16MB of RAM, >a faster processor, 5.25" disks, and a much smaller box (but not a >much smaller price tag, only slightly smaller). > >Good luck with it. If you want to play with a Unibus VAX, it's the >second smallest one, and not bad for a single-user VMS 4 or VMS 5 >system. > >Hope some of this helps, > >-ethan > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 06:35:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:35:39 -0400 Subject: Amigo computer, Amigo disk protocol (was Re: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A, VT420 composite video) In-Reply-To: <48686.207.145.53.202.1113864693.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6667@tampabay.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419073539.00972cc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:51 PM 4/18/05 -0700, Eric wrote: >Joe wrote: >> The Amigo protocall is for floppy disk drives! > >I wrote: >> I don't think that it was exclusively for floppy drive, > >Joe wrote: >> No it's not EXCLUSIVELY for the floppy drives but that's what it was >> desinged for. > >I don't think so. It was designed for the Amigo computer, AKA HP-300, >which is why it's called Amigo protocol. That's news to me! The docs that I have all indicate that it was written for the floppy drives. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 06:38:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:38:48 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <1113865622.12132.55.camel@weka.localdomain> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419073848.00979100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:07 PM 4/18/05 +0000, you wrote: >On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 15:40 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as >> does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated >> ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically >> susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about >> them? I've seen it on a HP 9835 and several HP 9845s. The 9845s seem to have it even more often than the 264x terminals in my experience. > >Yep, I've not seen it on much else. Digico springs to mind, plus a >couple of others that we have whose names escape me right now - but it's >almost exclusively the HP stuff. I'll agree with that! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 06:49:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:49:16 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: <1113865622.12132.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419074916.00b70750@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:14 PM 4/18/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 15:40 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as >> > does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated >> > ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically >> > susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about >> > them? >> >> Yep, I've not seen it on much else. Digico springs to mind, plus a >> couple of others that we have whose names escape me right now - but it's >> almost exclusively the HP stuff. > >Another product where you see this effect consistently is with ADM 3A >terminals. Hmm. I've never seen it on one. I expect that the source of the device and where/how they were stored makes a big difference. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 06:57:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:57:19 -0400 Subject: Got the HP9k system booted! was: New find & HP-UX p/w? In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20050418165435.026a8208@mail.netsync.net> References: <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419075719.00979970@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:18 PM 4/18/05 -0400, you wrote: > >Another important question is whether this machine can be made y2k >compliant? I'm pretty certain that it is, even the HP 9836 (aka 9000 236) was Y2K compliant. (the battery backup and clock were optional). I had to replace the 3V lithium coin cell on the main CPU board >and the machine prompted for a date/time upon bootup. Wouldn't take >anything above 99 so I set it at 95, exactly 10 years in the past. Date >entry is in the form of MMDDhhmm[yy]. When 05 is entered for yy the date >always displays as 1970. Seems 70 to 99 only work. That's interesting! Maybe it's NOY Y2K compliant. I'll try to look and see if I have a manual for this machine that covers the clock. What model exactly is it? Joe > >The EEPROM firmware (chip location U47) on my machine is part number >1818-5062 and *may* be the latest version. Upon startup the machine >announces: "BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 Nov 90". I make that version assumption >by believing the firmware upgrade required on this website: >http://www.blobulent.com:16080/hp300/upgrade/hp380.html would be pretty >much the last version released since the webpage had been made some years >after my machine (ca 1991) was made. Looks like we're SOL, but that needs >to be confirmed by the 9000/300 experts out there. > >That upgrade to a 380 looks tempting as my machine is just the one they're >talking about. Very simple, except for the compilation of a new kernel in >Step 1. I'm primarily a hardware guy. But, I'd need to use the machine >frequently to really justify messing around with the upgrade. > >Thanks for the help again! > >Regards, Chris F. > >NNNN > > > > >>-- >>Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo at cuthispambait.ieee.org >>Dean of Engineering, Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia >>---- >>"Western civilization... thought like the greeks, organized itself like >>the romans and believed in itself like the hebrew." -- Ortega y Gasset. > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 06:33:15 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:33:15 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <200504182249.j3IMmvPW016184@mail.bcpl.net> References: <20050418185417.89149.qmail@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <6667@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419073315.00b73920@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:48 PM 4/18/05 -0400, "J. David Bryan" wrote: >On 18 Apr 2005 at 11:54, David Comley wrote: > >> And that may be the problem. When I had this pointed to the 1631, it >> reported itself as a 9895. > >>From "HP's 5 1/4-Inch Winchester Disc Drive Service Documentation" (HP >09134-90032, August 1983): David, Can I get a copy of this manual? I've been looking for this kind of stuff for years. I have the service info for a couple of the floppy disk drives but never found it for the hard drives. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 06:40:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:40:53 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <200504182309.j3IN9HE9024833@mail.bcpl.net> References: <20050418192714.67562.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419074053.0097be60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:09 PM 4/18/05 -0400, you wrote: >On 18 Apr 2005 at 12:27, David Comley wrote: > >> Does that flexible disc address come in to play if the unit is >> configured as 4 x 1.15MB drives ? Perhaps I need to set that address >> instead. > >The 9133 (hard + 3.5" floppy), 9134 (hard only), and 9135 (hard + 5.25" >floppy) used the same controller, so the floppy address switches on the >9134 don't do anything. They're active on the other two models. > >Although you may already know it, it's probably worth mentioning that the >64000 system hard disc must be at address 0, a system line printer must be >at address 1, stations must be at 2-7, and one of the stations (or the only >one) must have the rear-panel master/slave switches set to "master," >according to the 64000 configuration guide. Ahh! That's something that I didn't know. On the 9000 200 and 300s they can use any unassigned address. Joe > > -- Dave > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 19 07:16:29 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:16:29 -0500 Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: <58683.207.145.53.202.1113876082.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <58124.207.145.53.202.1113874109.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <58683.207.145.53.202.1113876082.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050419071503.04dcedd0@mail> At 09:01 PM 4/18/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >When was >the last time Microsoft offered to let you just try out a copy of >Exchange Server or SQL Server for a while before you decide that you >(don't) want to use it? Well, they do hand out 120-day and trial versions of many products, including those. I'm surprised you've never seen them. They generally offer these to the development and dealer communities, not the general public, for obvious reasons - they'd be flooded. But there are exceptions. Click here for a free Visual Studio 2005 beta: http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/vs2005/Default.aspx And there are much cheaper ways to get many Microsoft products. An MSDN subscription or an Action Pack gets you almost everything for far less than retail. And that's not even tapping into the OEM CD market, where everything goes at a steep discount. - John From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 08:19:34 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:19:34 +0800 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: We're WAY past that milestone... :-) On 4/19/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 19 08:38:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:38:55 -0400 Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) References: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> <58558.207.145.53.202.1113875596.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <16997.2543.571198.117703@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> Also, the fact that TDK has at times in the past shipped CMC Eric> Magnetics media under the TDK brand does tell me something very Eric> important about the TDK brand. Even though TDK might not be Eric> shipping CMC Magnetics media today, there's no way in hell I'll Eric> ever buy writable optical media from TDK again. Not because Eric> it's crap today; since I haven't tried it recently I don't Eric> know. But instead, because it is proof positive that TDK does Eric> not perform adequate qualification of their suppliers. ... Sounds like my "no Fuji" reasoning -- 100% failure rate over at least two dozen audio cassettes tells me "they don't do QA" so they don't get my business, for anything. paul From cb at mythtech.net Tue Apr 19 08:49:37 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:49:37 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: > Just imagine flying across the country and in mid flight having to shut > everything down and re-booting or even worse having to reload the airplane > in mid flight. Ask the US Navy about this... who had a WinNT system die on a ship, and had to be towed back to port because they couldn't get it running again. -chris From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Apr 19 08:51:17 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:51:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Wai-Sun Chia "Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source)" (Apr 19, 21:19) References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10504191451.ZM2535@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 19 2005, 21:19, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > We're WAY past that milestone... :-) > > On 4/19/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. I have a feeling Fred was thinking of reductions, not increases :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 19 08:53:17 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050419074916.00b70750@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 06:14 PM 4/18/05 -0700, you wrote: > >On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > >> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 15:40 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> > The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as > >> > does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated > >> > ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically > >> > susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about > >> > them? > >> > >> Yep, I've not seen it on much else. Digico springs to mind, plus a > >> couple of others that we have whose names escape me right now - but it's > >> almost exclusively the HP stuff. > > > >Another product where you see this effect consistently is with ADM 3A > >terminals. > > Hmm. I've never seen it on one. I expect that the source of the device > and where/how they were stored makes a big difference. Not necessarily. I've seen ADM 3A terminals that are perfect (I have a couple) and I've seen some that are terrible (I have a couple). At any rate, this problem has always been described by speculation and no hard data. It's time we got some real answeres because if this damage can be halted and prevented in the first place then I'd like to know how and why it happens. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 19 08:54:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 06:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > We're WAY past that milestone... :-) In the reverse direction. Get it? :) > On 4/19/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 19 09:08:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:08:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Ask the US Navy about this... who had a WinNT system die on a ship, and > had to be towed back to port because they couldn't get it running again. > > Another myth. What happened was the _application_, not Windows, had a flaw (a divide by zero bug). William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com Tue Apr 19 07:11:54 2005 From: Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com (Steven_R_Hutchins at Raytheon.com) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:11:54 -0400 Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 Message-ID: I am considering using two modern +5v at 25A switching power supplies to replace the +5V source ( leaving the original -5V at 2A,+15 at 2A,-15 at 2A,and +20 at 4A as original) in a PDP-8A. My intent is to increase the reliability of the system. I have had trouble with keeping the G8018's operating. I occasionally trip the breakers on startup. I am thinking bad filter Caps. Perhaps someone could give some opinions on this (Crazy) idea. Hutch From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 19 09:14:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:14:17 -0700 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update Message-ID: <42651239.F90861AE@rain.org> Of the monitors I have, there is mold or ??? under the front glass on the screens of: * ADM3 Terminal (or ADM3A, don't remember) * Soroc IQ120 * HP Terminal (don't recall model) * DIGITAL monitor (don't recall model, but 12" or so screen) The HP Terminal was stored in a station wagon, others were stored in the garage and back porch. I don't remember seeing mold on any monitors used for the IBM PCs or Apple computers. The weather here is mostly moderate all year long, and I am about 3 miles from the Pacific Ocean. > >> On Mon, 2005-04-18 at 15:40 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> > The HP300 at the Computer History Museum has the same "mold" effects, as > >> > does a 2648 I've got in my warehouse. HP CRTs (especially the elongated > >> > ones found on the mentioned machines) seem to be more typically > >> > susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. I wonder what it is about > >> > them? > >> > >> Yep, I've not seen it on much else. Digico springs to mind, plus a > >> couple of others that we have whose names escape me right now - but it's > >> almost exclusively the HP stuff. > > > >Another product where you see this effect consistently is with ADM 3A > >terminals. > > Hmm. I've never seen it on one. I expect that the source of the device > and where/how they were stored makes a big difference. > > Joe > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Apr 19 09:15:59 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:15:59 -0500 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050419074916.00b70750@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050419091329.04a365c0@mail> At 08:53 AM 4/19/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >At any rate, this problem has always been described by speculation and no >hard data. It's time we got some real answeres because if this damage can >be halted and prevented in the first place then I'd like to know how and >why it happens. Sounds a job for a museum conservator. I would start by talking to the engineers and QA department of past or present CRT manufacturers. - John From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Apr 19 09:27:03 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:27:03 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050419010543.46609.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: 6667 Message-ID: <200504191427.j3JER4fk000801@mail.bcpl.net> On 18 Apr 2005 at 18:05, David Comley wrote: > It does appear to be the 4 x 1.15MB version. There's an HP warranty > label on the back that dates it to 1982. Well, you still might be in luck if you want to use this with your 64000. The configurable controller appeared after serial number 2151A04165, and in HP parlance, the "2151" indicates the 51st week of 1981. So a 1982 unit may be settable. -- Dave From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 19 09:29:04 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:29:04 -0400 Subject: quality of writeable optical media In-Reply-To: <200504190536.j3J5a36J036751@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504191429.j3JET4HI014675@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> With regard to DVD-R media, FWIW, I've had surprising and unexpected consistently high quality performance with the "K-Hypermedia" DVD-R media sold by OfficeMax (on very few occasions, I've seen this brand at other retailers, but mostly at OfficeMax). I expected this to be a cheap off-brand, but I've been using it for almost 3 years now, hundreds of pieces, on several different burners, and I've had consistently excellent results (including, so far, good data retention and readability as much as 2-3 years later). And it's relatively cheap when it's on sale (often). And I've had a few other people who are more than casually into optical media (people formerly associated with Roxio) report the same finding on this brand. Note, this applies only to the Blue silk-screen DVD-R media, 1x, 2x and 4x. They make (or should I say sell) other media, both DVD+ and CD, but I've had no experience with any of the other types. From cb at mythtech.net Tue Apr 19 09:30:25 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:30:25 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: >> > >Another myth. > >What happened was the _application_, not Windows, had a flaw (a divide by >zero bug). Read the bottom of the article, where they state that numerous other software failures on the Yorktown are associated with using Win NT. I think the real lesson here is, don't let any computer be your sole method of controlling a warship... didn't these people watch Terminator?!? :-) -chris From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 09:42:14 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:42:14 +0800 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > > We're WAY past that milestone... :-) > > In the reverse direction. Get it? :) > *slaps forehead* Duh!! Sorry guys..I blame it on insufficient caffeine.... :-) > > On 4/19/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 09:47:16 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:47:16 +0800 Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com wrote: > > > I am considering using two modern +5v at 25A switching power supplies to > replace the +5V source ( leaving the original -5V at 2A,+15 at 2A,-15 at 2A,and > +20 at 4A as original) in a PDP-8A. > My intent is to increase the reliability of the system. I have had trouble > with keeping the G8018's operating. I occasionally trip the breakers on > startup. I am thinking bad filter Caps. Perhaps someone could give some > opinions on this (Crazy) idea. Hmm....here's a crazy thought.. What about...replacing the filter caps? :-) Or troubleshooting the PSU? A PDP8 with a SMPS to me is total heresy. Where do you stop? One of the tenets in classic computing (to me anyway) is to retain originality as far as possible or as much as your funding/SO permits.. :-) /wai-sun From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Apr 19 09:51:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:51:18 +0000 Subject: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <42651239.F90861AE@rain.org> References: <42651239.F90861AE@rain.org> Message-ID: <1113922278.13610.53.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-19 at 07:14 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Of the monitors I have, there is mold or ??? under the front glass on > the screens of: > > * ADM3 Terminal (or ADM3A, don't remember) > * Soroc IQ120 > * HP Terminal (don't recall model) > * DIGITAL monitor (don't recall model, but 12" or so screen) > > The HP Terminal was stored in a station wagon, others were stored in the > garage and back porch. I don't remember seeing mold on any monitors used > for the IBM PCs or Apple computers. The weather here is mostly moderate > all year long, and I am about 3 miles from the Pacific Ocean. Do the ADM3 / Soroc / DEC screens obviously have a faceplate whilst the IBM / Apple ones don't? I'd just like to rule out that it isn't purely that the affected monitors have faceplates whilst unaffected ones don't! (implying that the rot is common to the transparent sealant used in that sort of time period, rather than it being a specific type of sealant that only some manufacturers used) At least the problem seems to be fixable through the hot wire method - although one person's reports way back of the CRT being damaged using this method is a little worrying. If I get time I'll have a look at which of our non-HP screens at Bletchley have been hit by this - the next time I'm over there is already scheduled to be a completely manic day though! cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 19 09:48:58 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:48:58 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca> chris wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>Another myth. >> >>What happened was the _application_, not Windows, had a flaw (a divide by >>zero bug). >> >> > >Read the bottom of the article, where they state that numerous other >software failures on the Yorktown are associated with using Win NT. > >I think the real lesson here is, don't let any computer be your sole >method of controlling a warship... didn't these people watch >Terminator?!? :-) > > > I guess nobody in DC watches Classic Star Trek and installed "manual over rides". Funny in WWI & WWII warships worked well with out puters but then they had 'sound powered phones" for commication on ship -- no electricty needed -- just wire between phones. From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 19 10:13:25 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Read the bottom of the article, where they state that numerous other > software failures on the Yorktown are associated with using Win NT. Yes, big deal? It seems to me Windows did what it was supposed to - trap errors caused by the applications. How many of these bugs caused blue screens? We don't know, without being there. Keep in mind that many people associate every GPF and other trapped errors in Windows as "crashing Windows". > I think the real lesson here is, don't let any computer be your sole > method of controlling a warship... didn't these people watch > Terminator?!? :-) Remember that the ship was a testbed - she was getting old when they did the tests (she is now decommissioned). US warships will NEVER have only one level of control - I think there is actually some doctrine in the Navy that states this. Warships have always been incredibly fault tolerant, and if something major fails, a ship could always go back several generations in technology still installed and maintained, or several backup systems on "hot standby". This is how ships beaten to a pulp can still get back to port. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 19 10:29:36 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:29:36 -0400 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! References: Message-ID: <001901c544f4$98f79ac0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I understand that you just got it, congratulations! Here are three steps that might have helped you. Push the leader-holder springlever back. Hook the leader in the pushed back position. Allow spring lever to return forward. Have fun, John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 19 10:31:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:31:21 -0400 Subject: Fault tolerance (was Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source)) References: <42651A5A.8070805@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16997.9289.400470.42327@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> chris wrote: >> I think the real lesson here is, don't let any computer be your >> sole method of controlling a warship... didn't these people watch >> Terminator?!? :-) >> woodelf> I guess nobody in DC watches Classic Star Trek and installed woodelf> "manual over rides". Funny in WWI & WWII warships worked woodelf> well with out puters but then they had 'sound powered woodelf> phones" for commication on ship -- no electricty needed -- woodelf> just wire between phones. In fairness, a lot of modern machinery can't be controlled by hand. Don't know about ships, but, for example, most fighter planes can't be flown without the help of their computers. Then again, that's why those computers are 3-way (or more) redundant, and their software development practices are supposed to be far more rigorous than PC desktop software. In extreme cases (Space Shuttle) you may see multiple control computers with separately-developed software in them. In the case of the space shuttle, that didn't prevent a startup sync problem that tripped up the countdown to the first launch, but in general it's a good concept. Hard to do and expensive, of course... paul From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 10:41:40 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:41:40 +0800 Subject: OT? DLT4000 has come undone!!! In-Reply-To: <001901c544f4$98f79ac0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <001901c544f4$98f79ac0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On 4/19/05, John Allain wrote: > I understand that you just got it, congratulations! > Here are three steps that might have helped you. > > Push the leader-holder springlever back. Retro thanks. :-) This was the part that stumped me....until I saw ..hey that's a spring! /ws From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 19 10:52:54 2005 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (David Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:52:54 -0400 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? & Secure data removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42652956.9000700@sbcglobal.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > >> While digging through a pile of PCs headed for the recycling/re-use >>center, I found a couple neat items. One is a NEC Advanced Personal >>Computer. Or at least I'm pretty sure that's what it said on the front. >>It's an all-in-one case, dual 8" floppy drives mounted vertically on the >>right side. Beige case, black trim. And the Keyboard to go with it. Is >>this thing worth saving for a museum or something? Free, pickup in New >>Haven, CT. > > > It's a neat machine but nothing terribly special. Make's a really solid > CP'M machine for someone who wants to play with that and likes 8" floppy > drives. > In that case then, I won't worry too much about it. But I will have to fire it up, (and the IBM machine also) to make sure they are wiped securely of any data. Ya know, that whole US HIPAA Act concerning medical data. Of course, if these things don't have hard drives, that's one less thing to worry about. :) Which brings up another thought. how would one go about making sure that data is securely wiped from a drive of a classic machine, without physically destroying it? So it could be donated & reused? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 19 11:10:01 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:10:01 -0400 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? & Secure data removal References: <42652956.9000700@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <16997.11609.916971.124262@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David Woyciesjes writes: David> ... Which brings up another thought. how would one go David> about making sure that data is securely wiped from a drive of David> a classic machine, without physically destroying it? So it David> could be donated & reused? Repeat for each disk: dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/ bs=64k or equivalent on whatever OS runs on the machine. Beware of the DOS "format" utility, which typically doesn't do a sufficient job. My inclination is to boot some suitable Unix and use that. See also http://staff.washington.edu/jdlarios/autoclave/ paul From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Apr 19 11:12:50 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:12:50 -0400 Subject: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: <1113761481.10716.57.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504191612.j3JGCpoD005295@mail.bcpl.net> On 18 Apr 2005 at 15:40, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > HP CRTs (especially the elongated ones found on the mentioned machines) > seem to be more typically susceptible to this effect than other CRTs. > I wonder what it is about them? They were all made by Clinton Electronics of Rockford, Illinois? I have an HP 2640A, a couple of 2645As, a 2647A, and two 64000s; all have spots to varying degrees, and all of the tubes were made by Clinton. Any chance your ADM 3A tubes have Clinton stickers on them? -- Dave From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Apr 19 11:20:32 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 09:20:32 -0700 Subject: WAS: SCSI CD drive capable ... IS: drivers for Phillips Changers References: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <42652FD0.93B35C3D@msm.umr.edu> Any possibility of getting drivers for the Phillips changer type CD drives for Linux? such as the 6 and 18 disc versions (or the 500 disc library?) Jim Billy Pettit wrote: >In 1999, I went to work for Philips, managing customer support for CD >burners and DVD burners. From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 19 11:53:35 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:53:35 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies References: Message-ID: <01fe01c54500$5eef8840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> One goodie that I got this weekend was just virtual, that is, it was information on equipment and not actual equipment. The person said to go in Massachusetts to somewhere around Dedham, near the intersections of route 3 and 128. There I would see an electronics dealer near the highway? Assuming the guy meant route 93, anybody have the name of a likely business near there? John A. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 19 12:11:11 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:11:11 -0400 (edt) Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <01fe01c54500$5eef8840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Apr 19, 05 12:53:35 pm Message-ID: <200504191711.NAA05039@wordstock.com> And thusly John Allain spake: > > One goodie that I got this weekend was just virtual, that is, it was > information on equipment and not actual equipment. The person > said to go in Massachusetts to somewhere around Dedham, near > the intersections of route 3 and 128. There I would see an electronics > dealer near the highway? Assuming the guy meant route 93, anybody > have the name of a likely business near there? > > John A. > > John, The only electronics dealer I know of near 95/128 is You Do It Electronics. Their website is http://www.youdoitelectronics.com But this isn't at the intersection of 128 and rt 3. Cheers, Bryan Pope From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Apr 19 12:29:59 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:29:59 -0400 Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <58558.207.145.53.202.1113875596.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050419132058.03c4bcd0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Eric Smith may have mentioned these words: >Billy wrote: > > 5. Saying a certain brand is crap, and another outstanding may be only > > a personal bias. > >No. Saying that media from CMC Magnetics is crap is a statement of fact, >backed up by much evidence collected over a period of years. CMC Magnetics >discs purchased last month were not any better than those purchased >three years ago. Saying damn near _anything_ from Memorex is crap is a statement of fact. Their 5.25" floppies sucked. Their 3.5" floppies sucked. Their cassette tapes sucked. Their mainframe 9-track tape drives sucked. Their CD-R[w] media sucked. Their CD-R[w] drives sucked. Needless to say, I've not tried any of their DVD branded media... ;-) These are all media and/or devices that I have personally worked with over the last 20 years; I have yet to see *anything* from that company that I'd even let my dog urinate on, let alone trust for data storage. >Also, the fact that TDK has at times in the past shipped CMC Magnetics >media under the TDK brand does tell me something very important about >the TDK brand. Even though TDK might not be shipping CMC Magnetics >media today, there's no way in hell I'll ever buy writable optical media >from TDK again. Not because it's crap today; since I haven't tried it >recently I don't know. But instead, because it is proof positive that >TDK does not perform adequate qualification of their suppliers. Thus >there is no way to buy TDK optical media and have any reasonable >expectation that it is not crap. Bingo! Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch at 30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From news at computercollector.com Tue Apr 19 12:31:46 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:31:46 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <200504191711.NAA05039@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200504191730.j3JHU6gG044653@dewey.classiccmp.org> LOL, I just sent the same reply, but accidentally as evan947 at yahoo... So disregard when it comes through the list in some distant future... Although I do remember another good store in Cambridge or Somerville, can't recall the name right now. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bryan Pope Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 1:11 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: TCF goodies And thusly John Allain spake: > > One goodie that I got this weekend was just virtual, that is, it was > information on equipment and not actual equipment. The person said to > go in Massachusetts to somewhere around Dedham, near the intersections > of route 3 and 128. There I would see an electronics dealer near the > highway? Assuming the guy meant route 93, anybody have the name of a > likely business near there? > > John A. > > John, The only electronics dealer I know of near 95/128 is You Do It Electronics. Their website is http://www.youdoitelectronics.com But this isn't at the intersection of 128 and rt 3. Cheers, Bryan Pope From medavidson at mac.com Tue Apr 19 12:32:36 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:32:36 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: As promised, I've managed to take a few photos of the new "baby". So far, I've only removed the plastic wrapping that the shippers put on the box. It's still strapped down to the shipping base. Unfortunately, I won't be able to do much with it for a few days, but I'm hoping to get the front panels off so I can check out the boards. I tried removing one last night, and they are very well attached. If anyone has suggestions for easy ways to remove these, I'd love to hear them. In any case, you can see photos of the machine in my garage at http://homepage.mac.com/medavidson/PhotoAlbum2.html Mark On Apr 8, 2005, at 3:25 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > On Apr 8, 2005, at 2:59 PM, woodelf wrote: > >> Mark Davidson wrote: >> >>> An update... >>> >>> As I write this, my girlfriend is at home waiting for the delivery >>> truck to show up with the Eclipse... I'm sure she'll call me when it >>> arrives and sees how big it is. *grin* >>> >>> In any case, it's going in the garage for now... when I get back >>> from vacation, I'll be able to get started on making it work. >>> Photos to follow... >> >> Better have your girl friend sit shotgun until you get back from you >> vacation >> the subject line is "DG Eclipse available ..." :) I'd check the >> packing anyhow >> before you leave just to confurm it got there safely. > > *grin* > > I will... actually, I think I'm going to have to make a special trip > to the jewelry store for her. They just delivered the machine and she > called me, saying "Oh my God, another computer!" (I recently picked up > a Symbolics as well). She doesn't understand WHY these machines make > me happy, but in reality, she likes me to be happy. > > Of course, I'm not at home so I can't comment on the packing, but I > know they re-palleted the machine before delivering it. Time will > tell as to the condition. Now I just need the boot tapes to arrive... > I just hope they locked the drive heads before it was originally > picked up from the starting location (which I had no control over). > > Mark > From marvin at rain.org Tue Apr 19 12:42:55 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:42:55 -0700 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? & Secure data removal Message-ID: <4265431F.3C8B1548@rain.org> My understanding is that one of the specifications for removing secure information from a hard disk requires writing zeros to the disk six or seven times. Norton Utilities (old version) had diskwipe and filewipe where you could specify how many times to write to the disk. Some time ago, there was a discussion of how to recover data that had been overwritten. The only thought I have is that it would take some specialized equipment to read the disk and would take the hysterisis of writing to the disk into account. My guess is that the magnetic field would be such that after six or seven writes, the prior data would no longer be recoverable. > Which brings up another thought. how would one go about making sure > that data is securely wiped from a drive of a classic machine, without > physically destroying it? So it could be donated & reused? > > -- > --- Dave Woyciesjes From fernande at internet1.net Tue Apr 19 12:46:43 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:46:43 -0400 Subject: quality of writeable optical media (was Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20050419132058.03c4bcd0@mail.30below.com> References: <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> <42645BBD.3010404@ix.netcom.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20050419132058.03c4bcd0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <42654403.8060809@internet1.net> Roger Merchberger wrote: > Saying damn near _anything_ from Memorex is crap is a statement of fact. > Their 5.25" floppies sucked. I always liked their 5.25" floppies. I used them with the Apple //e's when I was in school. I've still got all my disks, and last I checked they were still readable.... after......17, 18, almost 20 years. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 19 12:48:33 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <42651239.F90861AE@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Of the monitors I have, there is mold or ??? under the front glass on > the screens of: > > * ADM3 Terminal (or ADM3A, don't remember) > * Soroc IQ120 > * HP Terminal (don't recall model) > * DIGITAL monitor (don't recall model, but 12" or so screen) My Soroc IQ120 also has the problem. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 19 12:52:02 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 Message-ID: <200504191752.KAA04320@clulw009.amd.com> Hi He might check out the circuit breaker. These are know to go bad, especially if they are used often as a switch or have been tripped often. Unless there is a soft start circuit, it is unlikely that the filter capacitor would trip the breaker but otherwise continue to work after the power came up normally. Dwight >From: "Wai-Sun Chia" > >On 4/19/05, Steven_R_Hutchins at raytheon.com > wrote: >> >> >> I am considering using two modern +5v at 25A switching power supplies to >> replace the +5V source ( leaving the original -5V at 2A,+15 at 2A,-15 at 2A,and >> +20 at 4A as original) in a PDP-8A. >> My intent is to increase the reliability of the system. I have had trouble >> with keeping the G8018's operating. I occasionally trip the breakers on >> startup. I am thinking bad filter Caps. Perhaps someone could give some >> opinions on this (Crazy) idea. > >Hmm....here's a crazy thought.. >What about...replacing the filter caps? :-) >Or troubleshooting the PSU? > >A PDP8 with a SMPS to me is total heresy. >Where do you stop? > >One of the tenets in classic computing (to me anyway) is to retain >originality as far as possible or as much as your funding/SO permits.. >:-) > >/wai-sun > > From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Apr 19 12:52:10 2005 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:52:10 -0400 (edt) Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <200504191730.j3JHU6gG044653@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Computer Collector Newsletter" at Apr 19, 05 01:31:46 pm Message-ID: <200504191752.NAA31604@wordstock.com> And thusly Computer Collector Newsletter spake: > > LOL, I just sent the same reply, but accidentally as evan947 at yahoo... So > disregard when it comes through the list in some distant future... > > Although I do remember another good store in Cambridge or Somerville, can't > recall the name right now. > Maybe you mean Future Electronics? I think they used to be in that area, but have closed down. Cheers, Bryan Pope From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Apr 19 13:14:38 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:14:38 +0100 Subject: pdp esdi controllers on ebay References: <200504181812.j3IICSv4004373@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <009f01c5450b$a70b0040$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> The cost of postage, is the killer, sending stuff out of the UK is very expensive, I've had several eBay customers complain at the cost (I send them the link to the Post Office website to prove I'm not trying to rip them off!). Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Parker" To: "Dan Williams" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 18, 2005 7:12 PM Subject: Re: pdp esdi controllers on ebay > > Dan Williams wrote: > >Any interest for these ? > > > >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=96944&item=5186209 179 > >&rd=1 > > yes, but I've never bought from the UK - does that gum things up or is it > easy to get things sent 'over the pond'? > > -brad From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 13:17:41 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 11:17:41 -0700 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? In-Reply-To: References: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I think it is a little more than that. I really like the original APC. It was a very well made business computer. It was a crossover machine that had both an 8085 CPU and an 8086 CPU. Can run 8 bit CPM and 16 bit CPM-86. You can also find MS-DOS 1.X and 2.X for it. There were external 8 inch and or 5 1/4 inch hard drives available for it. One of the first versions of Autocad ran on it. I have seen Autocad 1.0 on 8 inch floppy with one. I would save a color one but not the monochrome. The keyboard might have value to a collector as they were often lost or damaged. I wish I was close enough to collect it. I think I still have a set of books for one. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Apr 19 12:53:19 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:53:19 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:30:25 EDT." Message-ID: <200504191753.SAA30334@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, chris said: > >> > > > >Another myth. > > > >What happened was the _application_, not Windows, had a flaw (a divide by > >zero bug). > > Read the bottom of the article, where they state that numerous other > software failures on the Yorktown are associated with using Win NT. > > I think the real lesson here is, don't let any computer be your sole > method of controlling a warship... didn't these people watch > Terminator?!? :-) Someone should tell the Royal Navy, there are plans to install a command and control system based on Windows on RN nuclear submarines. Gerald Wilson, who used to work for Marconi and the Defence Procurement Agency told the BBC: "It is inconceivable that we could allow the possible accidental release of nuclear missiles. The people who survived such an exchange, if any, would certainly regard such a thing as a crime against humanity. And I can't help feeling that even planning to deploy such systems on Windows, with its unreliability and lack of security, is itself some sort of crime in international law." Windows 2000 is already used in the Type 45 destroyer for combat management software. Marconi are reported to have said: "... we have stopped making SW transmitters and antennas, our reason for being now ... shoddy naval software. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Apr 19 13:39:39 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:39:39 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4265506B.9060105@mdrconsult.com> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > We're WAY past that milestone... :-) > > On 4/19/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. I think Fred meant "from his current status". A worthy objective.... Doc From news at computercollector.com Tue Apr 19 13:54:29 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:54:29 -0400 Subject: Photos of the MARCH exhibit at TCF... Message-ID: <200504191853.j3JIrgVW045869@dewey.classiccmp.org> I didn't have these links in time for yesterday's issue of Computer Collector Newsletter. Fair warning, some of the images are huge. Andy Meyer's photos: http://ahm.ath.cx/photos/TCF2005/Saturday/ and http://ahm.ath.cx/photos/TCF2005/Sunday/ Bill Sudbrink's photos: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/tcf/ (Anyone who's in the US mid-atlantic area should check out our club page, it's http://groups.yahoo.com/group/midatlanticretro/ ) ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Apr 19 14:03:42 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:03:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? & Secure data removal In-Reply-To: <4265431F.3C8B1548@rain.org> Message-ID: > My understanding is that one of the specifications for removing secure > information from a hard disk requires writing zeros to the disk six or > seven times. Norton Utilities (old version) had diskwipe and filewipe > where you could specify how many times to write to the disk. > > Some time ago, there was a discussion of how to recover data that had > been overwritten. The only thought I have is that it would take some > specialized equipment to read the disk and would take the hysterisis of > writing to the disk into account. My guess is that the magnetic field > would be such that after six or seven writes, the prior data would no > longer be recoverable. It is thought that NO amount of reading and writing will completely scramble a disk. There is a reason why the NSA/CIA/FBI/military disintegrates their disks. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pmackinlay at hotmail.com Tue Apr 19 10:47:56 2005 From: pmackinlay at hotmail.com (Patrick Mackinlay) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:47:56 +0800 Subject: Intergraph fans... Message-ID: Just a short post to introduce myself and what I'm up to... I'm currently looking into one of Intergraph's old InterPro systems (a 2830) and trying to dig up enough documentation to allow me to ultimately port NetBSD to the box to replace the native CLIX (an old SYSV 3.2ish Unix). Have made some pretty good progress on disassembling the boot EPROM and writing the beginnings of a hardware simulator. After discovering the CLIPPER CPU book online (not to mention the DP8510 BitBlt unit databook!), I think my off-the-shelf chip documents are almost complete. Information on the custom ASICs is almost nonexistent, but the system diagnostics provide some good reference code which should provide useful information. I'm curious to know if there's anyone else out there that's interested in these relatively rare boxes? For anyone that cares, the basic hardware in the box is: C4M CLIPPER CPU at 70MHz, ECC RAM Zilog 85C30 SCC and 85230 ESCC - one port used by keyboard, other three available Xilinix XC3020 fpga controls Versatec, Centronics or Intergraph compatible plotter interface Intel 82596 ethernet controller NCR53c94 SCSI host controller NEC82077 floppy controller Dallas DS12887 RTC and NVRAM 128k boot UV EPROM 2x128k diagnostic/boot flash EPROM The graphics board is built up with: DP8510 BitBlt unit (x2 on dual head board) custom Bresenham line-drawing ASIC bt459 DAC (x2 on dual head board) 2x1M VRAM (double buffered), (x2 on dual head board) The real key to the missing documentation is the remaining IOGA and SGA custom asics on the system board. Anyone who has any other documentation on this stuff would be a friend for life ;). Regards, Pat Mackinlay. From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 12:09:09 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:09:09 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <01fe01c54500$5eef8840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200504191707.j3JH7Z01044421@dewey.classiccmp.org> Do you mean You-Do-It Electronics? http://www.you-do-it.com/ If that's not the store, I recommend visiting them anyway -- it's as big as a Home Depot but only for electronics -- an awesome store. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:54 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: TCF goodies One goodie that I got this weekend was just virtual, that is, it was information on equipment and not actual equipment. The person said to go in Massachusetts to somewhere around Dedham, near the intersections of route 3 and 128. There I would see an electronics dealer near the highway? Assuming the guy meant route 93, anybody have the name of a likely business near there? John A. From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Tue Apr 19 15:08:37 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:08:37 +0100 Subject: DEC M873 YB loader Message-ID: <001d01c5451b$92f9b8c0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, does anyone know of an on-line manual for a M873 YB loader? I can find a few diagrams (hard copy) at work, but none of the associated documentation or listings (or what the installed loaders do). Thanks Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Apr 19 15:11:51 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 05 20:11:51 GMT Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image Message-ID: <0504192011.AA22644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, Would any of you happen to have the load image for the VT1300 X terminal? VT1300 is actually a diskless VAXstation 3100 (SCSI controller daughterboard also omitted) that instead of running VMS or Ultrix netboots a special image that turns it into the VT1300 X terminal. I'm looking for that image. I have the boot images for the VXT 2000 X terminal (VXT and VXT EX software V2.1) which also support VS3100/VT1300 (I guess it was officially supported as a software upgrade from VT1300 to VXT 2000), but VXT software on VS3100/ VT1300 does not actually work too well. The VS3100/VT1300 is just a standard VAXstation while the VXT 2000 has some special hardware and console ROM adaptations to perform its special function. VS3100/VT1300 has just the minimal NVRAM used by the console ROM, whereas VXT 2000 has a much larger NVRAM that can store an entire X resource file. The VXT software is designed to use that NVRAM and works poorly when it is not available, as is the case on VS3100/VT1300. The result is that when you run VXT software on a VS3100/VT1300 and don't have an InfoServer, there is no way to save customizations to the terminal's configuration, not even the most essential settings like the DNS servers (which it does NOT take from the BOOTP server's response), which makes the terminal practically unusable. On paper VXT software supports three types of saved settings (resource files): NVRAM, InfoServer-based and host-based. NVRAM is not an option because it does not exist on VS3100/VT1300, InfoServer-based is not an option when you don't have an InfoServer, and apparently for it to fetch a host-based resource file via TFTP it has to first get the path to it from NVRAM, which is a chicken and egg problem when you don't have NVRAM. There is also the much more basic VXT EX software (just an X terminal without local clients) and it apparently does not use resource files like the full VXT does, but it still wants to save some things in NVRAM: again the DNS server (which it stupidly does not take from BOOTP), the host to connect (XDMCP) to, and the TFTP font path. It's a royal pain to reenter all that stuff every time, and not just on power cycles, but every time you log out you have to reenter it before you can log in again because it restarts and clears everything after XDM ends the session. I'm hoping to have a better lot with VT1300 software if I can find it, since it's a bare-bones X server just like VXT EX, but actually designed for VS3100/VT1300 hardware without NVRAM. From what I've read about it, it always XDMCPs to the boot host (the one that replied to BOOTP) instead of doing the song and dance that VXT EX does. So, does anyone have a copy of the VXT EX load image? TIA for any help, MS From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 19 15:33:00 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:33:00 -0500 Subject: HP 2000/Access 21MX-EEEEEEE version :> Message-ID: <00d901c5451e$fb010290$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just booted it up and it runs wonderfully :) So, the IOP firmware for the E series has not only been found, but confirmed to work! It was so neat to type "HEL-A000..." on a terminal this morning. The dual E's are noticeably faster than my dual 2100 Access system, but not as much faster as I would have expected. Odd, since the processors are significantly faster, and using the high performance memory option. The basement doesn't heat up quite as much running on two E's as opposed to two 2100A/S. Also, I seem to be able to run it indefinitely without tripping a circuit breaker. Nifty! I ran in to lots of cpu problems this morning, and had to go through every one of my 21MX-E spare cpu's to get a working combination. Yikes - makes me wish I hadn't given away all my E's. At some point in the future I should probably try the M series firmware board, just to be sure that works as well. I also wound up having to scavenge some parts from my 2100 Access system to get the MXE Access system up. Bummer! Hopefully some trades will produce the necessary stuff to have both operational. Yup, I'm pondering some RJE setup between the two :) Oh, except I apparently only have one set of processor interconnect cables, thought I had two :\ Making up THOSE cables will suck. Anyways... just wanted to let folks know that the E series IOP firmware is definitely a go. The biggest problem I had was trying to figure out how to set up the FAB board. I'd really have preferred to go the FEM route, but Access is so hard-coded in the system processor side of things. Regards, Jay West From mokuba at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 15:32:01 2005 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:32:01 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R In-Reply-To: <4262F4EF.6020802@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: It was a multislice solaris cd, could that cause problems? Burnt from a single image.... I threw a burnt disc in it today though, from the mac, and it read fine as far as I can tell (sol10 x86, opened a license doc)... It's a rather ancient sun external, got it with some IPX's On 4/17/05 7:44 PM, "Doc Shipley" wrote: > Gary Sparkes wrote: > >> I'm desperate for a scsi drive capable of reading CD-Rs! If anyone has one, >> anyone at all, I'd love to hear from you! (External especailly, but I can >> swap drives in an external housing if needed, I guess) > > The *only* SCSI drive I've ever had that wouldn't read CD-Rs was an > external HP. Don't remember the model, but it was a 2x-4x reader. Even > my old Macintosh external, may it RIP, would read CD-Rs. > > Nobody else has mentioned it, but most older (4x or slower) readers > will hurl on a multisession or an "open" CD-R. Burn your CDs > single-session, and be sure to close them. If your hardware will do DAO > burns, that's always the best bet. > > > Doc -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG - FM19t From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Apr 19 15:43:55 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:43:55 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R References: Message-ID: <00a401c54520$815f65b0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sparkes" To: "Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:32 PM Subject: Re: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R > It was a multislice solaris cd, could that cause problems? Burnt from a > single image.... I threw a burnt disc in it today though, from the mac, and > it read fine as far as I can tell (sol10 x86, opened a license doc)... It's > a rather ancient sun external, got it with some IPX's > Plextor SCSI cdrom drives tend to work in Mac, SGI, and other machines and can also read CDR's fine. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Apr 19 15:48:23 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:48:23 -0400 Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <01fe01c54500$5eef8840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <01fe01c54500$5eef8840$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <42656E97.5060508@splab.cas.neu.edu> If it was new electronics, then yes, it is YouDoIt electronics, just off Rte 128 at the Needham/Newton exit, which is one exit below the Rte 9 exit. Used is another story. I haven't been in a while, but in Cambridge was Eli Heffron, which is now E.L.I. computers. There are a couple of other used/surplus places around here, but they are not really open to the public. One is off of Rte 3, below Rte 128, going toward the Cape, in Hanover. Joe Heck John Allain wrote: > One goodie that I got this weekend was just virtual, that is, it was > information on equipment and not actual equipment. The person > said to go in Massachusetts to somewhere around Dedham, near > the intersections of route 3 and 128. There I would see an electronics > dealer near the highway? Assuming the guy meant route 93, anybody > have the name of a likely business near there? > > John A. > From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 19 15:50:17 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050419071503.04dcedd0@mail> References: <58124.207.145.53.202.1113874109.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <58683.207.145.53.202.1113876082.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <6.2.1.2.2.20050419071503.04dcedd0@mail> Message-ID: <65249.207.145.53.202.1113943817.squirrel@207.145.53.202> John wrote: > Well, they do hand out 120-day and trial versions of many products, > including those. I'm surprised you've never seen them. They generally > offer these to the development and dealer communities, not the general > public, for obvious reasons - they'd be flooded. Sure, but I'm not a dealer, and I'm not willing to pay to be a developer. I can be a developer with free software for... well, free. And for that, I don't *need* a dealer. I can completely cut out the middleman, which is always a good thing (except for the middleman). > And there are much cheaper ways to get many Microsoft products. > An MSDN subscription or an Action Pack gets you almost everything > for far less than retail. With a license that says that you're not allowed to use it for anything but development. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 19 15:51:32 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:51:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <65418.207.145.53.202.1113943892.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Fred wrote: > We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. Wai-Sun wrote: > We're WAY past that milestone... :-) No, we have nearly $59 billion to go. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 19 15:53:11 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 13:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <65530.207.145.53.202.1113943991.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Chris wrote: > Ask the US Navy about this... who had a WinNT system die on a ship, and > had to be towed back to port because they couldn't get it running again. There was an interview with an admiral in charge of the program, and he said that they knew that Windows wasn't as stable as Unix, but "it was getting better". At what point do we draw the line between stupidity and treason? (Not that they're mutually exclusive.) From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 19 16:42:39 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:42:39 -0400 Subject: SCSI CD drive capable of reading CD-R References: <00a401c54520$815f65b0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <05cd01c54528$b67a3d80$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I had an idea earlier today that our hobby of Classiccmp'ing may actually be creating bad CD's, That is: older drives use brighter read lasers since more elegant sensing solutions might not have been invented at the time. Old bright lasers + new delicate media = faster destruction. Just a theory. Not proven. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Apr 19 16:46:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> > > We all must do whatever it takes to make Bill Gates into a millionaire. On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > We're WAY past that milestone... :-) just think about what it would take to change his net worth from $40,000,000,000 into $1,000,000 From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 19 16:53:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: At Last - A Control Data 160-A! In-Reply-To: <32975.64.169.63.74.1113894619.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <426482D4.7040706@ix.netcom.com> <32975.64.169.63.74.1113894619.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050419145314.A659@localhost> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Billy wrote: >> Last week, I brought home my very own 160-A. Complete with the 161 >> typewriter unit and a bunch of spares. I had to move it about 300 miles >> using a garbage (U-Haul) truck. >> Put it in the garage, powered it up and it ran! Pretty spec-f*cking-tacular! From williams.dan at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 16:54:40 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:54:40 +0100 Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image In-Reply-To: <0504192011.AA22644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504192011.AA22644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <26c11a64050419145466bb7410@mail.gmail.com> I don't know anything about this machine but I think this is the software you want : http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware40/ews/ Dan From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 19 16:56:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 14:56:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050419145441.L659@localhost> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > In any case, you can see photos of the machine in my garage at > http://homepage.mac.com/medavidson/PhotoAlbum2.html Cool! Looks like my nova4 setup! I have a 602x tape drive too (vacuum column). It's likely that the vacuum column switches are dead, they have a latex membrane. Don't throw them out! I was able to repair most of mine. Do you have any media for it? From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 19 17:00:13 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050419145751.N659@localhost> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Not necessarily. I've seen ADM 3A terminals that are perfect (I have a > couple) and I've seen some that are terrible (I have a couple). > > At any rate, this problem has always been described by speculation and no > hard data. It's time we got some real answeres because if this damage can > be halted and prevented in the first place then I'd like to know how and > why it happens. I agree 100%. I suspect that it's not an organism at all, but merely breakdown of the stuff that bonds the faceplate to the tube. Automobile windshields pretty much all exhibit a similar phenomenon; they get foggy (white) at the corners. It's known to be deterioration/oxidation of the plastic layer. Plastics degrade all the time. But we need someone to test the "mold", which will be tough. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Tue Apr 19 17:08:19 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:08:19 +0200 Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image In-Reply-To: <0504192011.AA22644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504192011.AA22644@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050419220819.GM8765@lug-owl.de> On Tue, 2005-04-19 20:11:51 +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > So, does anyone have a copy of the VXT EX load image? TIA for any help, I've got a boot image for a VXT2000+ around somewhere, but I don't know what kind it is exactly. I'd need that mostly for disassembly to make Linux properly run on the VXT :-) MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 19 17:13:09 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:13:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TCF goodies In-Reply-To: <200504191711.NAA05039@wordstock.com> References: <200504191711.NAA05039@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20050419151131.N659@localhost> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Bryan Pope wrote: > The only electronics dealer I know of near 95/128 is You Do It > Electronics. Their website is http://www.youdoitelectronics.com > > But this isn't at the intersection of 128 and rt 3. Isn't it 128 and route 9? S. of rt 9? I'm glad to know You-Do-What is still there. I lived in Boston in the late 70's/early 80's and used to go to that place. If I remember right, there was a big AM antenna farm on a hill above the highway. From djg at drs-c4i.com Tue Apr 19 17:31:41 2005 From: djg at drs-c4i.com (David Gesswein) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:31:41 -0400 Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 Message-ID: <200504192231.j3JMVfx09588@drs-c4i.com> > I am considering using two modern +5v at 25A switching power supplies to > replace the +5V source ( leaving the original -5V at 2A,+15 at 2A,-15 at 2A,and > +20 at 4A as original) in a PDP-8A. > If I remember correctly 8/A's had a single backplane so using two 5V supplies will be difficult unless they are specially designed for current sharing. Otherwise one will try to take the entire load. Also I think the 8/A is a switching supply. You should check to see if it will be happy with 5V unloaded. I would recommend measuring the current draw on the 5V supply. If you aren't near it then I would see if the fault can be fixed. If you are at capacity then using a single 5V supply with sufficient capacity should help. If thei internal 5V can't be unloaded you will need a more complicated current sharing booster supply or a dummy load on the 5V. I had that problem with my fully loaded 8/E using more than the rated 5V current. It had two backplanes without the 5V connected between them. I powered one half with the existing supply and the other with a modern supply. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 19 18:43:47 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <20050419145751.N659@localhost> References: <20050419145751.N659@localhost> Message-ID: <44324.207.145.53.202.1113954227.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tom wrote: > I agree 100%. I suspect that it's not an organism at all, but > merely breakdown of the stuff that bonds the faceplate to the > tube. Possible. But when I was at the UofU, there was a colloquium with some guys from Evans and Sutherland, talking about their hemispherical display system using lots of monitors. They *did* have problems with mold attacking their optical interface material. They spent a lot of time and a lot of money investigating it. So it's definitely known that mold can do that, but it's probably the case that it can happen by other means as well. Eric From medavidson at mac.com Tue Apr 19 18:50:49 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:50:49 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <20050419145441.L659@localhost> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> Message-ID: <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> On Apr 19, 2005, at 2:56 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> In any case, you can see photos of the machine in my garage at >> http://homepage.mac.com/medavidson/PhotoAlbum2.html > > Cool! Looks like my nova4 setup! I have a 602x tape drive too > (vacuum column). It's likely that the vacuum column switches are > dead, they have a latex membrane. Don't throw them out! I was able > to repair most of mine. > I'll let you know. My understanding is that the machine was working and functional when it was disconnected (probably around October of last year). However, I promise not to throw anything out! My big question is how to remove the front or side panels. I know the front panels should "pop off", but I tried pulling one or two and they are on tight. > Do you have any media for it? > > Not yet. I've had two gracious offers to send me boot tapes, and I'm also in contact with someone who has a large collection of DG tapes that will hopefully be able to help. I should have an AOS/VS boot tape by next week. My goal is to do the following: 1) Remove the panels and check the connections. 2) Check the boards and make sure they are seated. 3) Pull out the drive and check the heads... and pray they locked the heads down; once that's verified, I'd unlock them 4) Apply power individually to the units (tape, CPU, disk). Make sure they power up ok. 5) Connect a terminal and try to get the thing to boot. Suggestions are most welcome... it's been years since I worked with one of these beasts. I'm only a "semi" hardware guy... I can do some checking, but I don't have a lot of diagnostic experience with these machines. Mark From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 19 18:50:15 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 16:50:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help ID this operating system? Message-ID: I'm trying to determine what the operating system is of some 8" floppies I'm trying to read. I found the directory on track 2 but it's not CP/M, and it's not DOS. It looks CP/M-ish, but the offsets of the file entries are not right. Anadisk says this is a high density disk, sector IDs 1-26 on side 0 and 27-52 on side 1, 256 byte sectors. I see this string in the first track: Type to load system. Some extra context around this string: 0000100: 3100 303a 0b00 b7f2 a034 3a8d 4811 363b 1.0:.....4:.H.6; 0000110: 123a 0600 4fcd 30f8 0120 4e0b 78b0 20fb .:..O.0.. N.x. . 0000120: 3a07 00c6 3132 7335 016d 35cd 243b 0171 :...12s5.m5.$;.q 0000130: 35cd 243b 0144 3bcd 243b 2144 3b22 d13d 5.$;.D;.$;!D;".= 0000140: c37b 3531 0030 3a07 00c6 3132 7335 0171 .{51.0:...12s5.q 0000150: 35cd 243b 21d3 3de5 01ca 3dcd 063b fe03 5.$;!.=...=..;.. 0000160: ca46 35fe 7fca 4635 fe08 ca46 35fe 15ca .F5...F5...F5... 0000170: 4635 fe18 ca46 35e1 7723 e53a ca3d fe0a F5...F5.w#.:.=.. 0000180: 20d6 d121 d43d afed 5221 d33d 200b 0144 ..!.=..R!.= ..D 0000190: 3bcd 243b 2144 3b18 2801 7835 cd24 3b3a ;.$;!D;.(.x5.$;: 00001a0: d43d fe3a 201b 3ad5 3dfe 21f2 4135 3ad3 .=.: .:.=.!.A5:. 00001b0: 3dd6 31fa 5c39 fe04 f25c 3932 0700 c3c3 =.1.\9...\92.... 00001c0: 3422 d13d 1835 0177 35cd 243b c3c3 340d 4".=.5.w5.$;..4. 00001d0: 0a54 7970 6520 3c43 523e 2074 6f20 6c6f .Type to lo 00001e0: 6164 2073 7973 7465 6d2e 0d0a 7f7e 1c1a ad system....~.. 00001f0: 7f0d 0a31 3e20 7f23 0d0a 7faf 32a2 3bed ...1> .#....2.;. 0000200: 5bd1 3dcd 6736 c457 39cd 9c37 cdc8 37e6 [.=.g6.W9..7..7. 0000210: fec4 5239 2a9d 3b22 f138 3e01 32f0 3821 ..R9*.;".8>.2.8! 0000220: a53c 22f3 38cd 0339 2aa5 3c7d b7c4 5239 .<".8..9*.<}..R9 0000230: 24c4 5239 2aa7 3c22 cd3d 1100 f0af ebed $.R9*.<".=...... (I haven't taken a stab at trying to determine what CPU these instructions are for. This is from the second sector read off the first track.) More strings: Opr= H Trk= H Sec= H Rec= H Cmd= H Sts= ? Drive not ready [Drv= ? Disk I/O error [Drv= ? Illegal disk address [Drv= ? Load address error ? Not a system exec file ? System file not found ? Illegal device name ? Illegal file name SYSTEM.IMF I found what looks to be an allocation table at the 17th sector of the first track: 0001000: ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ................ 0001010: ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff fff0 3fff f7ff ............?... 0001020: ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ................ 0001030: ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff ffff 8fff ffff ................ 0001040: ffff ffff ffff c07f ff9f fe01 ff1f ffe0 ................ 0001050: 0800 0f82 0001 ff00 03ff e3fe 0000 00ff ................ 0001060: ffff fff0 3fff ffff ffff ffff fffe 87ff ....?........... 0001070: ffff ffff ffff fff8 0fff ffff fff7 ffff ................ 0001080: 1fff fe80 3fff ff8f ffff ffff ffff ffc3 ....?........... 0001090: ffff fff0 0000 f000 ffff 803c 1fff ffff ...........<.... 00010a0: ffff ffc7 fff9 ffff ffe7 ff8f ffff fff8 ................ 00010b0: 0000 7e08 0fff fffe 07fe 000f fc00 b07c ..~............| 00010c0: 1fff ffff e1ff fde8 0f3f 03ff ffff ffff .........?...... 00010d0: ffff fff0 3fff f807 ffff 3fff ffff f1ff ....?.....?..... 00010e0: ffff ffff ffff 80fe 7cfe 7fff ffff 0e00 ........|....... 00010f0: 01fe 0efe 3e7f ff80 0ff8 0fc0 0000 fef6 ....>........... 0001100: 3fff ffff ff00 00ff f83e 7ffc 3fff f9fd ?........>..?... 0001110: fe1f ffff e07c ffff fffd c000 3f00 0000 .....|......?... 0001120: 000f e3e7 ffff fc0f ffff dcff fe3f fc30 .............?.0 0001130: 7f0f fc01 e3e7 f800 0000 03ff 7e3f ffc0 ............~?.. 0001140: 0000 0fff ffff ffff fff1 feff ffe7 f07e ...............~ 0001150: 007f fff8 160b 3fc0 3fff fff0 1fff ffff ......?.?....... 0001160: 0781 ffff ffff 1fff ffdf c7e8 03ff ffc0 ................ 0001170: 0e00 9fff ffbf ffff f7ff e0ff ffbf fe00 ................ 0001180: 033f c01f ffe3 ffbf e7f0 003f c3fd ffff .?.........?.... 0001190: ffc1 ff9f ffff ffff ffff fe00 000f ffff ................ 00011a0: e3c0 7ee0 0000 1f3f c1ff ffff 000f ffff ..~....?........ 00011b0: ffff fff8 3f87 ffff fff0 ffe3 ffff ffff ....?........... 00011c0: fff8 ffff ffff ffe3 f000 07ff e783 ff80 ................ 00011d0: 7fff ff7f ffff ffff c3ff ffff ffff fffc ................ 00011e0: ff87 ffff c000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ 00011f0: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ Sector 21 has the volume label: 0001400: 8080 004d 4953 432e 2044 4953 4b20 2331 ...MISC. DISK #1 0001410: 3020 2020 2020 2020 2020 2020 2020 2020 0 0001420: 2020 2020 2020 2020 2020 2000 0000 0000 ..... 0001430: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ 0001440: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ Here are the first two directory sectors: 0001a00: be00 424f 4f54 0000 0000 0000 0000 494d ..BOOT........IM 0001a10: 46a7 0010 0000 0000 0000 1001 0000 0000 F............... 0001a20: be00 5341 5400 0000 0000 0000 0000 494d ..SAT.........IM 0001a30: 46a5 0004 0000 0000 0000 0411 0000 0000 F............... 0001a40: be00 4c41 4245 4c00 0000 0000 0000 494d ..LABEL.......IM 0001a50: 4631 0006 0000 0000 0000 0615 0000 0000 F1.............. 0001a60: be00 4449 5245 4354 4f52 5900 0000 494d ..DIRECTORY...IM 0001a70: 46a5 0082 0000 0000 0000 821b 0000 0000 F............... 0001a80: be00 4944 3832 3600 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..ID826......... 0001a90: 0000 b107 0000 001d 1500 0701 0300 0000 ................ 0001aa0: be00 4944 3832 3700 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..ID827......... 0001ab0: 0000 f208 0000 001d 1500 0808 0300 0000 ................ 0001ac0: be00 4944 3832 3800 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..ID828......... 0001ad0: 0000 1c07 0000 001d 1500 0710 0300 0000 ................ 0001ae0: be00 4944 3832 3900 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..ID829......... 0001af0: 0000 5505 0000 001d 1500 0517 0300 0000 ..U............. 0001b00: 9c10 4249 3131 3100 0000 0000 0000 3200 ..BI111.......2. 0001b10: 0000 8506 0000 0060 0200 0222 0303 2c03 .......`..."..,. 0001b20: fe00 0106 0400 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ 0001b30: 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ 0001b40: be00 4249 3131 3100 0000 0000 0000 3100 ..BI111.......1. 0001b50: 0000 9c07 0000 0060 0200 0330 0604 1307 .......`...0.... 0001b60: be00 5045 4332 3000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..PEC20......... 0001b70: 0000 3804 0000 005f 0800 0313 2301 1739 ..8...._....#..9 0001b80: fe00 0332 0705 0908 0412 0803 3109 0303 ...2........1... 0001b90: 0a02 140a 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ................ 0001ba0: be00 4655 5333 3400 0000 0000 0000 3300 ..FUS34.......3. 0001bb0: 0000 2607 0000 0060 0500 061c 0301 0704 ..&....`........ 0001bc0: be00 484f 4734 0000 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..HOG4.......... 0001bd0: 0000 d508 0000 001d 1600 0832 0300 0000 ...........2.... 0001be0: be00 4655 5333 3800 0000 0000 0000 0000 ..FUS38......... 0001bf0: 0000 3705 0000 007f 0600 0424 0301 0a04 ..7........$.... Filenames seem to be 12 characters plus a 3 character extension. Anyone? Anyone? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 19 19:06:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:06:38 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: >just think about what it would take to change his net worth from >$40,000,000,000 into $1,000,00 > > A) BIG TAX B) INFLATION C) TYPO's Well if things worked different I guess IBM would have $80,000,000,000 now and we all would just be getting AT's now. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 17:23:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:23:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: HPIB fundamentals (was Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A, In-Reply-To: <20050419005017.67302.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at Apr 18, 5 05:50:17 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for the help Steve. How something simple like a > printer ? I have two HPIB printers, one a full-size HP > line printer and the other a 2225 ThinkJet. Having > either printer hooked up to Linux would actually be > quite useful. Pritners are quite easy. You address them as a listener, then send data to them. Most HPIB printers of that period (and certainly the TJ) will print ASCII text without problems. The TJ should respond to the same escape sequences as other Thinkjets... Of course how you do that under linux is another matter. I've either done it on HP machines (which are very much plug-n-play) or the hard way, directly talking to the HPIB controller registers on single-board machines.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 17:27:42 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:27:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050419010543.46609.qmail@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at Apr 18, 5 06:05:43 pm Message-ID: > > It does appear to be the 4 x 1.15MB version. There's > an HP warranty label on the back that dates it to > 1982. Old (pre-about-1997) HP devices (not just computers, but test gear too) have serial numbers of the form yywwCnnnnn Where : yy = number of years since 1960 (note, this might be a single digit on really old stuff) ww = week of mnaufactuer (sometimes adjusted for the average time it takes to get the unit from HP to the custormer) C = country of production (A = USA, B = Brazil, Q = UK, G = West Germany, S = Singapore, probably others too) nnnnn = serial number in that week, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 17:53:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:53:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050419073848.00979100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 19, 5 07:38:48 am Message-ID: > I've seen it on a HP 9835 and several HP 9845s. The 9845s seem to have > it even more often than the 264x terminals in my experience. Oh great.... The one in my HP98780A (enhanced graphics monitor for the 9845) looks OK at the moment, but I guess I'll have the fun of removing the faceplate sometime... My 9845 is a somewhat odd configuration. It's a 9845B with the high-speed language processor, the enhanced monitor (with the hardware graphics accelerator board, etc) but only 1 RAM board (it's got the standard ROM/RAM boards for each of the processors too, of course). Personally, I'd have thought that anyone ordering a machine with those 2 high-performance options would have stuffed it with RAM too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 17:56:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:56:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: from "Steven_R_Hutchins@Raytheon.com" at Apr 19, 5 08:11:54 am Message-ID: > I am considering using two modern +5v at 25A switching power supplies to > replace the +5V source ( leaving the original -5V at 2A,+15 at 2A,-15 at 2A,and > +20 at 4A as original) in a PDP-8A. > My intent is to increase the reliability of the system. I have had trouble > with keeping the G8018's operating. I occasionally trip the breakers on > startup. I am thinking bad filter Caps. Perhaps someone could give some > opinions on this (Crazy) idea. OK, being tactful : BLETCH! To me, the power supply is as much a part of the original design as the CPU, the I/O boards, the peripherals, etc. If you don't care about keeping the hardware as original as possible, then you might as well run an emulator on a PC. The PDP8/A power supply schematics exist (are they on bitsavers?). Why don't you work out what's wrong with it and repair it properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 17:45:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:45:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> from "spedraja@ono.com" at Apr 19, 5 10:46:09 am Message-ID: > > > Hello everybody. I'm in the process to obtain one VAX-11/730. In appeareance > in working condition. I'm only waiting to know if it comes in "tower" format > with a couple of RL02 units or not. Having this last in mind, I would agree The 11/730 CPU is, IIRC, 3 hex-height boards, with another board for the Integrated Disk Cotnroller (IDC). Typically, they fitted into a 10.5" rackmount box, with slots for memory and a couple of Unibus devices, a PSU, and a TU58. The 11/730 loads its CPU microcode from a TU58 cartridge at power-on. The IDC supoorts the RL02 (AFAIK the RL01 is not supported, but I can't see how the hardware couldn't handle it), and the R80. The R80 is a 120-ish Meg Winchester with an interface which is just far enough from SMD to give SMD hackers headaches! The normal configurations seem to be : A rack containing the CPU _only_, with the TU58 cartridge tape drive under it, both drivs accessible from the front of the rack. You need a second rack for disks, etc. Actually, I've never seen that one. A rack containg the CPU box, with one TU58 cartridge on the front of the CPU and one round the side. The latter is the one it loads the microcode from, the idea being you leave the microcode tape in there, you don't really need to change it very often. Under the CPU box is an R80 Winchester, on top is an RL02 Much the same, but with a TS05 (Cipher F880) 9-track mag-tape drive in place of the RL02, and a TSU05 controller in one of the Unibus slots. > comments about the possible expansion of the system with other options: storage > (9-track unit(s) or Disks in SMD or SCSI format), memory, connectivity (serial > and network ports, signal control ports), etc. If I remember well this machine > only had Unibus and not Massbus. Yes, Unibus only (I suppose you could add an RH11 Massbus interface, but it wouldn't handle the higher-speed Massbus devices). You should be able to add 3rd party Unibus controllers for SMD or SCSI (but the latter will be darn expensive). You could also add a UDA50 and hang some RA-series drives off it. There are 2 serial ports (Console and Remote Diagnostics) built into the CPU. You can add things like the DZ11 if you want more. You should be able to add a DEUNA or DELUA for ethernet. I am not sure how much spare capacity there is on the CPU power supply. You may well need an external BA11 mounting box for some of those boards. > > Documentation about the system printed or downloadable would be agreed too. I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I don't think it's on bitsavers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 19 17:48:39 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 23:48:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 19, 5 05:14:06 am Message-ID: > The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is > 30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We It has one other advantage for people like me. It's one of only 2 series of VAXen (the other being the 11/780 + derivatives) that is built from standard chips. The 11/730 is mostly non-protected PALs, AMD2901s, etc. OK, there are _2_ custom chips, the ECC correcting logic IIRC, but most of it is hackable. If you don't have space for an 11/780, then the 11/730 (and its brother the 11/725) is about the only choice for a hardware hacker. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 19 19:37:37 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:37:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: Message-ID: KB Alert: This is a good tidbit for the knowledge base. On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > It does appear to be the 4 x 1.15MB version. There's > > an HP warranty label on the back that dates it to > > 1982. > > Old (pre-about-1997) HP devices (not just computers, but test gear too) > have serial numbers of the form > > yywwCnnnnn > > Where : yy = number of years since 1960 (note, this might be a single > digit on really old stuff) > > ww = week of mnaufactuer (sometimes adjusted for the average time it > takes to get the unit from HP to the custormer) > > C = country of production (A = USA, B = Brazil, Q = UK, G = West Germany, > S = Singapore, probably others too) > > nnnnn = serial number in that week, etc. > > -tony > -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 19:47:17 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:47:17 -0400 Subject: ebay: what are those unibus boards Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3360&item=3969936532&rd=1 seems a gold scraper got the lot From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 19 19:49:53 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050419174820.S659@localhost> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > C) TYPO's This gets my vote. > Well if things worked different I guess IBM would have $80,000,000,000 now > and we > all would just be getting AT's now. If things had worked out differently we might be using ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one package! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 19 19:47:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 18:47:30 -0600 Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4265A6A2.1040300@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >OK, being tactful : BLETCH! > >To me, the power supply is as much a part of the original design as the >CPU, the I/O boards, the peripherals, etc. If you don't care about >keeping the hardware as original as possible, then you might as well run >an emulator on a PC. > >The PDP8/A power supply schematics exist (are they on bitsavers?). Why >don't you work out what's wrong with it and repair it properly. > > Another factor after reading many posts here, is power supplies often have power on -- power off sequences for core and other computer logic : Power fail IRQ for example. A modern PC power supply may not have that. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Apr 19 19:53:24 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:53:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 19, 5 11:56:10 pm" Message-ID: <200504200053.RAA14854@floodgap.com> > > My intent is to increase the reliability of the system. I have had trouble > > with keeping the G8018's operating. I occasionally trip the breakers on > > startup. I am thinking bad filter Caps. Perhaps someone could give some > > opinions on this (Crazy) idea. > > OK, being tactful : BLETCH! > To me, the power supply is as much a part of the original design as the > CPU, the I/O boards, the peripherals, etc. If you don't care about > keeping the hardware as original as possible, then you might as well run > an emulator on a PC. Why is that such a capital crime? I use a modified PC power supply with a Commodore 64C, so should I just chuck the whole thing and use a Commodore emulator because I'm unworthy of grace due to the fact I didn't like the original unreliable 64 brick? Please. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A pedestal is as much a prison as any small, confined space. -- G. Steinem - From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 19 19:49:53 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:49:53 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 References: Message-ID: <003f01c54542$ddbdf8e0$3a92a8c0@maggie> I've been wondering about the possibility of hacking one of the memory boards - say from 16 to 64K drams or 64 to 256K. Is the microcode the limitation or memory controller/physical constraints/powersupply? 8 megs on my 725 would lovely... h > > The 11/730 (and 11/725) CPU rivals the MicroVAX-I for slowness (one is > > 30% as fast as a 780, one is 40% as fast), but is a solid machine. We > > It has one other advantage for people like me. It's one of only 2 series > of VAXen (the other being the 11/780 + derivatives) that is built from > standard chips. The 11/730 is mostly non-protected PALs, AMD2901s, etc. > OK, there are _2_ custom chips, the ECC correcting logic IIRC, but most > of it is hackable. > > If you don't have space for an 11/780, then the 11/730 (and its brother > the 11/725) is about the only choice for a hardware hacker. > > -tony From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue Apr 19 19:53:33 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050420005333.47241.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dave, My serial number is 2203A01125 so that would confirm the 1982 date. Does your documentation give any indication of which jumpers need to be changed to reconfigure the drive ? There are several on the controller board but nothing explicitly marked Option 010 or anything. --- "J. David Bryan" wrote: > On 18 Apr 2005 at 18:05, David Comley wrote: > > > It does appear to be the 4 x 1.15MB version. > There's an HP warranty > > label on the back that dates it to 1982. > > Well, you still might be in luck if you want to use > this with your 64000. > The configurable controller appeared after serial > number 2151A04165 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Apr 19 20:21:49 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:21:49 -0500 Subject: Goodwill find from Nintendo Message-ID: <01dd01c54547$55257580$2f406b43@66067007> Found a Japanese game diskette for use in the Nintendo Famicom external disk drive unit. I could only find one disk in a clear carrying case. The game is called ZANAC and from the pic's looks like a aircraft shoot-up game. Also at another thrift today I found 4 game cartridges for the Super Famicom. I'm still looking for a power supply for the Super Famicom console I got from this same thrift last year. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 20:01:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:01:58 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: <42651239.F90861AE@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419210158.0093c7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:48 AM 4/19/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > >> Of the monitors I have, there is mold or ??? under the front glass on >> the screens of: >> >> * ADM3 Terminal (or ADM3A, don't remember) >> * Soroc IQ120 >> * HP Terminal (don't recall model) >> * DIGITAL monitor (don't recall model, but 12" or so screen) > >My Soroc IQ120 also has the problem. Mine doesn't. I bought seven HP 64000s a couple of years ago and none of them had the problem. Their (the 64000s) CRTs were all made by Clinton but they were still perfect. However they were stored on the second floor of a large barn like building and it was bone dry. However it was un-air conditioned and within site of the Atlantic coast. I don't know the history of any of the other systems that I got except for the first HP9845. It had been stored in a cheap leaky aluminium shed for a number of years and it's CRT was full of spots. My Soroc came from a surplus store and it's CRT is perfect but the store had just gotten it and I have no idea where it came from before that. Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 20:03:21 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:03:21 -0400 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? In-Reply-To: References: <4263F02C.4030303@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419210321.0093c7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Paxton, I'd like to have the books to go with my APC. (hint, hint!) Joe At 11:17 AM 4/19/05 -0700, you wrote: >I think it is a little more than that. I really like the original APC. >It was a very well made business computer. It was a crossover machine >that had both an 8085 CPU and an 8086 CPU. Can run 8 bit CPM and 16 >bit CPM-86. You can also find MS-DOS 1.X and 2.X for it. > >There were external 8 inch and or 5 1/4 inch hard drives available for it. > >One of the first versions of Autocad ran on it. I have seen Autocad >1.0 on 8 inch floppy with one. > >I would save a color one but not the monochrome. The keyboard might >have value to a collector as they were often lost or damaged. > >I wish I was close enough to collect it. I think I still have a set of >books for one. >-- >Paxton Hoag >Astoria, OR >USA > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 20:07:39 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:07:39 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <20050419145751.N659@localhost> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419210739.0093c7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:00 PM 4/19/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> Not necessarily. I've seen ADM 3A terminals that are perfect (I have a >> couple) and I've seen some that are terrible (I have a couple). >> >> At any rate, this problem has always been described by speculation and no >> hard data. It's time we got some real answeres because if this damage can >> be halted and prevented in the first place then I'd like to know how and >> why it happens. > >I agree 100%. I suspect that it's not an organism at all, but >merely breakdown of the stuff that bonds the faceplate to the >tube. > >Automobile windshields pretty much all exhibit a similar >phenomenon; they get foggy (white) at the corners. It's known to >be deterioration/oxidation of the plastic layer. That's completely different from what these CRTs are doing. These have spots all over and not an even discoloration that starts at the corners the way that windshields do. I seriously doubt that they're caused by similar processes. > >Plastics degrade all the time. > >But we need someone to test the "mold", which will be tough. I would be EASY to test to see if it's an organic compound. Joe > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 19 20:11:04 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:11:04 -0400 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050419073848.00979100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050419211104.0093c7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:53 PM 4/19/05 +0100, you wrote: >> I've seen it on a HP 9835 and several HP 9845s. The 9845s seem to have >> it even more often than the 264x terminals in my experience. > >Oh great.... The one in my HP98780A (enhanced graphics monitor for the >9845) looks OK at the moment, but I guess I'll have the fun of removing >the faceplate sometime... I don't know for certain but I suspect that if you keep it in a good dry environment that it will be fine. Joe > >My 9845 is a somewhat odd configuration. It's a 9845B with the high-speed >language processor, the enhanced monitor (with the hardware graphics >accelerator board, etc) but only 1 RAM board (it's got the standard >ROM/RAM boards for each of the processors too, of course). Personally, I'd >have thought that anyone ordering a machine with those 2 high-performance >options would have stuffed it with RAM too. > >-tony > From rcini at optonline.net Tue Apr 19 20:29:55 2005 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:29:55 -0400 Subject: Asimov mirror? Message-ID: <000c01c54548$75cf2a00$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> All: Does anyone have a local mirror (or maybe an ISO or Torrent) of the Apple II/Asimov archive that I can grab? I find it difficult to capture the "disk images" directory without timeouts and other delays causing problems. Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 19 20:40:15 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:40:15 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050419174820.S659@localhost> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419174820.S659@localhost> Message-ID: <20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 17:49:53 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > C) TYPO's > > This gets my vote. > > > > Well if things worked different I guess IBM would have > > $80,000,000,000 now and we > > all would just be getting AT's now. > > If things had worked out differently we might be using > ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one > package! > > I got my AT last summer at a surplus equipment auction. From cb at mythtech.net Tue Apr 19 21:01:23 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:01:23 -0400 Subject: Asimov mirror? Message-ID: > Does anyone have a local mirror (or maybe an ISO or Torrent) of the >Apple II/Asimov archive that I can grab? I find it difficult to capture the >"disk images" directory without timeouts and other delays causing problems. Me Too I tried archiving the FTP site a while back, but it always failed at about the same point. It almost seemed to me they were cutting off my access to avoid having people siphon out all the images. -chris From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Apr 19 21:12:57 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:12:57 -0500 Subject: Asimov mirror? References: Message-ID: <001e01c5454e$7bbc70c0$953ed7d1@randylaptop> From: "chris" Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 9:01 PM > > Does anyone have a local mirror (or maybe an ISO or Torrent) of the >>Apple II/Asimov archive that I can grab? I find it difficult to capture >>the >>"disk images" directory without timeouts and other delays causing >>problems. > > > > Me Too > > > > > I tried archiving the FTP site a while back, but it always failed at > about the same point. It almost seemed to me they were cutting off my > access to avoid having people siphon out all the images. > > -chris > After a quick search I found this: ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/ Asimov- #1 archive of Apple II 8-bit games and utilities in emulator DSK and file formats; plus emulators and emu info Asimov Mirrors- sites which mirror Asimov ftp://apple.cabi.net/pub/apple_II/ Apple Cabi.net Asimov Mirror ftp://mirror.aarnet.edu.au/pub/apple_II/ Australia Aarnet Mirror ftp://mirror.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/ Georgia Mirror I haven't tried any of them. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 19 21:28:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 19:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050419210158.0093c7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Mine doesn't. I bought seven HP 64000s a couple of years ago and none of > them had the problem. Their (the 64000s) CRTs were all made by Clinton but > they were still perfect. However they were stored on the second floor of a > large barn like building and it was bone dry. However it was un-air > conditioned and within site of the Atlantic coast. I don't know the history > of any of the other systems that I got except for the first HP9845. It had > been stored in a cheap leaky aluminium shed for a number of years and it's > CRT was full of spots. My Soroc came from a surplus store and it's CRT is > perfect but the store had just gotten it and I have no idea where it came > from before that. My stuff has always been stored in dry areas with fairly stable temperatures year round so who knows. Another computer that gets affected that I just remembered is the Imlac. My Imlac has it bad, and Tom Uban's has it as well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Apr 19 21:30:38 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:30:38 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419174820.S659@localhost> <20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4265BECE.6010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Scott Stevens wrote: >>If things had worked out differently we might be using >>ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one >>package! >> They have them already --- look at Dekatron decade counters. Also a nice example of them in action. http://anita-calculators.info/html/mk_8.html >>I got my AT last summer at a surplus equipment auction. >> >> Wow ... they took their time to scrap it. I hope they did not want original price on it like some people sell things... What I had meant with that statement was that computer growth may have happed since IBM did not see a large market for "personal computers". From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 21:44:38 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:44:38 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> Message-ID: On 4/19/05, Tony Duell wrote: > The 11/730 CPU... normal configurations seem to be : > > A rack containing the CPU _only_, with the TU58 cartridge tape drive > under it, both drivs accessible from the front of the rack. You need a > second rack for disks, etc. Actually, I've never seen that one. That's the one I haven't seen either. I'd be curious to find if there's room in the CPU bay for a DD11-DK or two. > A rack containg the CPU box, with one TU58 cartridge on the front of the > CPU and one round the side... > > Much the same, but with a TS05 (Cipher F880) 9-track mag-tape drive in > place of the RL02, and a TSU05 controller in one of the Unibus slots. Ah... I'd forgotten about that configuration, but I don't think it was very common. A TU80 alongside was somewhat common. > There are 2 serial ports (Console and Remote Diagnostics) built into the > CPU. You can add things like the DZ11 if you want more. There's room in the I/O bulkheads for a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1 printer), and IIRC, it was somewhat common. > I am not sure how much spare capacity there is on the CPU power supply. > You may well need an external BA11 mounting box for some of those boards. I personally wouldn't try to run 5 memory boards, and a full Unibus if that Unibus was trying to power a DEUNA/DELUA or a UDA50 without first calculating _exact_ DC consumption. I've loaded the memory bus and the Unibus, but not with such power-hungry devices. > I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I don't think it's on > bitsavers. Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for the 11/730-Z (the configuration we've been discussing)... I know it covers cable runs (which are quite intricate in that box), and it _may_ have CPU board prints; I'll have to check. -ethan From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Tue Apr 19 22:12:10 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 05 03:12:10 GMT Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image Message-ID: <0504200312.AA23430@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Dan Williams wrote: > I don't know anything about this machine but I think this is the > software you want : > > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/freeware/freeware40/ews/ That's it, thanks! Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > On Tue, 2005-04-19 20:11:51 +0000, Michael Sokolov org> wrote: > > So, does anyone have a copy of the VXT EX load image? TIA for any help= > , > > I've got a boot image for a VXT2000+ around somewhere, but I don't know > what kind it is exactly. Damn thinkos spoil the post... :-( I meant VT1300 load image, I already had the VXT and VXT EX ones. But thankfully Dan pointed me to what I was looking for, so I'm happy. :-) Now I've looked at the EWS documentation and realised that it won't do what I need after all because it's based on X11R3 and predates MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 and XDMCP, so it'll be unacceptable security-wise. Which means that I'll have to cash out for a VXT 2000 so I can run VXT EX on the hardware it's designed for. :-( MS From cobb at corning.us Tue Apr 19 00:19:31 2005 From: cobb at corning.us (cobb at corning.us) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 00:19:31 -0500 Subject: Sky Technical EBD Message-ID: <773744288.20890156411354@corning.us> Fractured omit we have been medians them flavoring. Consignee must felicitous her numerals. Befit's dogmas it did bellies. They frightening she mothball begetting be Coventry him. Instituting has forefather's, mine were mirror blocks. Cliche's brighteners he has been bachelor theirs. Byrd does doubter, them has outruns Theodore. Hipping Borg she might Brookline him. 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From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Apr 19 15:30:04 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:30:04 -0000 Subject: Amigo computer, Amigo disk protocol (was Re: Questions -Universe/68, HP-9134A, VT420 composite video) References: <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6667@tampabay.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418131244.00b68c90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050419073539.00972cc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4250612B.67DE0F9B@mindspring.com> > >I don't think so. It was designed for the Amigo computer, AKA HP-300, > >which is why it's called Amigo protocol. > > That's news to me! The docs that I have all indicate that it was written > for the floppy drives. > > Joe I was flipping through the "HP 9000 Device I/O Users Guide" today and saw reference to HPIB printers that used the AMIGO protocol! This blew me away. I always thought the protocol was strictly for disk drives (hard & floppy) but, apparently it was broader than that. BTW: The DOCS don't indicate which specific printers. See ya, SteveRob From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Apr 19 15:43:12 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:43:12 -0000 Subject: Got the HP9k system booted! was: New find & HP-UX p/w? References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <6.1.2.0.2.20050418165435.026a8208@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <42506443.839EDD93@mindspring.com> > Interrupt > FSCK INTERRUPTED > STARTING A SHELL FOR MANUAL fsck, ^D WHEN FILE SYSTEM FIXED > (in bcheckrc) # " > > Was that block cursor the single user prompt?? YOU'RE IN! At this point the system is running in single user mode. You've got root permissions. Don't until you've changed the root password. NOTE: I don't have my HPUX system running so, you might want to get some additional input here. I think you have two choices. You can either edit "/etc/passwd" removing the root password or you can create a new user. I'd try to create a new user giving that user root permissions. Then you can reboot and login as the new user. Since that user has root permissions, he can change any of the passwords including root's. See ya, SteveRob From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Apr 19 16:04:36 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:04:36 -0000 Subject: New Space heater AKA: HP 9000/845 References: <009301c542f9$6c96f6d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42506946.BB161BD9@mindspring.com> Hey Guys, Just picked up my "new" 9000/845. I already have a working 842S but wanted another system for spares. For those that don't know, this is a washing machine size system that sucks up 220 AC like it's free! Also got two HP-7980 Autoloader tape drives that are in excellent condition. The've got HP-IB interfaces and will work with my smaller HP-UX systems. I love watching those drives load a tape. The way the tape snakes it's way through the machine is very cool. The system did not include any disks. That's OK, I've got spare HPIB disks laying around here (somewhere). Suprisingly, it did not have a network card installed. All the other systems I've seen this size had networking installed. I also got the original HP-UX 8.0 OS and SUBSYSTEM install tapes (9 track). I think the subsystem tapes include FORTRAN 77, PASCAL, and HP-C. Does anyone know if those software versions will run on HP-UX 10.20? Are they codeword protected? And I got a buttload of HP-UX 8.0 DOCs. Including a "HP-PA Architecture Workbook". See yas, SteveRob From steerex at mindspring.com Tue Apr 19 17:03:42 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 22:03:42 -0000 Subject: HPIB fundamentals and questions References: <20050419005017.67302.qmail@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4250771F.2249B5AE@mindspring.com> David Comley wrote: > > Thanks for the help Steve. How something simple like a > printer ? I have two HPIB printers, one a full-size HP > line printer and the other a 2225 ThinkJet. Having > either printer hooked up to Linux would actually be > quite useful. Dave, About two years ago, I downloaded the GPIB source for LINUX from a website. I don't recall the URL but you should be able to find it on google. I never could get it to compile on my LINUX box but, you might have better luck. I was involved in some other projects so, didn't spend too much time tinkering with it. If you are proficient in "C" you might be able to get it to work. So... If you want to learn the basics of HPIB, hook up one of the printers to the analyzer and try sending the control sequences. All you have to do is address the printer to listen to the bus and send an ASCII string. The printer should print the string as you send it. Steps: 1.) Connect the printer to the analyzer with a HPIB cable. No other devices should be connected. 2.) Set the address switches on the printer to an address between 0 and 7. 3.) Set the analyzer to TALK mode. The HP analyzers have a toggle switch for this, the Ziatech may be different. 4.) Using the analyzer, send the MLA (My Listen Address) command to the bus. The MLA command tells a specific device on the bus that the following data is intended for that device. 5.) Send an ASCII string to the printer. 6.) Send the "UNL" unlisten command to the printer. What is the difference between a "COMMAND" and "DATA"? The distinguishing characteristic is the "ATN" (attention) line. This line can only be asserted by the "CIC" (Controller In Charge) which in this case is the analyzer. The HP analyzer has a toggle switch that will assert the ATN line when a data byte in put on the bus. Not sure about the Ziatech. Just to muddle up things, there are "Primary" commands and "Secondary" commands. your printers will in all likelyhood only use "Primary" commands. So we'll only deal with those for now. Primary HPIB commands use the following bit pattern: [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Notice bit [0] is the most significant bit. [0] This is generally the parity bit. Most devices don't check for parity so, we won't worry about it for now. [1] MTA - This bit sets the device to "TALK". IE: A multimeter would be set as a talker so that it can send data to the bus. [2] MLA - This bit sets the device to "LISTEN". Your printer will be a listener when it is receiving data. [3][4][5][6][7] - This is the address of the device that the controller is sending the command to. Notice there are 32 possible addresses. Generally the primary address will be 0-7. So... If we want to send a string to the printer, from the analyzer send the "MLA" command: ATN + [0][0][1][x][x][x][x][x] Where "xxxx" is the address of the device as set by a dip switch on the device. At this point, the device at "xxxx" is a listener and will respond to any data that is sent. Now toggle in the ASCII string and send it one byte at a time. NOTE: ATN is NOT asserted when sending the data. [0][0][1][1][0][0][0][0] = "0" [0][0][1][1][0][0][0][1] = "1" .... Some printers will wait for a "CR/LF" before printing anything. Not sure about yours. When finished printing, the device will expect an "UNL" (unlisten) command. This tells the printer to ignore any following data because it could intended for a disk or some other device. To UNL, send the following command: ATN + [0][0][1][1][1][1][1] I know my instructions are disjointed and I hope you can make sense of them. If this doesn't help, let me know and I'll give you some additional help. See ya, SteveRob. ebuta bit this is kinda disLet From waisun.chia at gmail.com Tue Apr 19 23:33:34 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:33:34 +0800 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <4265BECE.6010405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419174820.S659@localhost> <20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4265BECE.6010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 4/20/05, woodelf wrote: > Scott Stevens wrote: > > >>If things had worked out differently we might be using > >>ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one > >>package! > >> > They have them already --- look at Dekatron decade counters. > Also a nice example of them in action. > http://anita-calculators.info/html/mk_8.html Wow. That is sooo coool... What other pseudo-SSI tubes exist/existed? I mean for higher-level functions; e.g. adders, counters, flipflops, decoders,....(TTL equivalents). /ws From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 19 23:58:33 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 21:58:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050419215028.V910@localhost> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > My big question is how to > remove the front or side panels. I know the front panels should "pop off", > but I tried pulling one or two and they are on tight. PULL HARD! > 3) Pull out the drive and check the heads... and pray they locked the heads > down; once that's verified, I'd unlock them Buy some lintfree swabs, 99% alcohol and clean 'em anyways. I found it simply easier to remove the big metal cover from the drive, loosen the screws holding down the plastic cover of the heads, slide it back 1" (without otherwise removing it) and getting a good clean shot at inspection and cleaning. At least my 6070 has a toggle switch inside, on the servo board, that disables the head servos; DISABLE, power the drive up switch to RUN and let it purge for an hour; this is recommended in the service docs. The platters will spin, brush cycle runs, air pumps, presumably flings off all the dust. > 4) Apply power individually to the units (tape, CPU, disk). Make sure they > power up ok. Most peripherals are pretty much stanalone; the tape drives will mount, BOT, rewind, etc with the CPU off. It helps. > Suggestions are most welcome... it's been years since I worked with one of > these beasts. I'm only a "semi" hardware guy... I can do some checking, but > I don't have a lot of diagnostic experience with these machines. I'm OK with hardware but I'm no DG expert. This is my only minicomputer. Bruce Ray knows a lot though. I assume you've seen www.simulogics.com... From cctalk at randy482.com Wed Apr 20 00:12:21 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:12:21 -0500 Subject: Got the HP9k system booted! was: New find & HP-UX p/w? References: <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net><6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net><4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co><6.1.2.0.2.20050418165435.026a8208@mail.netsync.net> <42506443.839EDD93@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <006801c54567$8c108c90$613dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Steve Robertson" Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 4:46 PM >> Interrupt >> FSCK INTERRUPTED >> STARTING A SHELL FOR MANUAL fsck, ^D WHEN FILE SYSTEM FIXED >> (in bcheckrc) # " >> >> Was that block cursor the single user prompt?? > > YOU'RE IN! At this point the system is running in single user mode. > You've got root permissions. > > Don't until you've changed the root password. > > NOTE: I don't have my HPUX system running so, you might want to get some > additional input here. I think you have two choices. You can either edit > "/etc/passwd" removing the root password or you can create a new user. > > I'd try to create a new user giving that user root permissions. Then you > can reboot and login as the new user. Since that user has root > permissions, he can change any of the passwords including root's. > > See ya, > SteveRob I am also ignorant about HPUX but I would assume the easiest thing to do would be to change the root password: Try typing 'passwd root' and see if it asks for a new password, if not then 'vi /etc/passwd' and remove the root password (it should be encrypted) if it's not encrypted just change it. If you are not familiar with vi Linux has a clone and www.linux.org should have the commands, it's easy and exists on most UNIX systems and UNIX clones. Typing 'd' then hitting the spacebar deletes the character under the cursor, typing ':w!' saves the file, ':q' exits (colon, lowercase w, explanation point & colon lowercase q). Adding a user and giving it root permissions takes more effort. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 20 00:53:57 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:53:57 -0500 Subject: ebay: what are those unibus boards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504200053.58250.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 19 April 2005 19:47, 9000 VAX wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3360&item=3969 >936532&rd=1 I can't tell what the unibus boards are in the lot. There are a few dual-sized QBUS boards, though.... On the left of the 2nd pic, a DLV11-J, on the right, an LSI-11/23 CPU, and the center one looks like a third-party board; maybe a disk controller of some sort. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Wed Apr 20 01:07:36 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 02:07:36 -0400 Subject: LOL !! Message-ID: <200504200606.j3K66Lnl056413@dewey.classiccmp.org> Can you believe some schmuck put this under "vintage computers"...!!?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5186732050& rd=1 ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From javickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Apr 20 01:42:23 2005 From: javickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:42:23 +0100 Subject: LOL !! In-Reply-To: <200504200606.j3K66Lnl056413@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504200606.j3K66Lnl056413@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050420074138.023b7ec0@orac> At 07:07 20/04/2005, you wrote: >Can you believe some schmuck put this under "vintage computers"...!!?? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5186732050 Hmm... It *is* old. In fact, under the 10-year rule, doesn't Win95 come on-topic in late August? Scary... From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Wed Apr 20 02:19:24 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:19:24 +0200 Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image In-Reply-To: <0504200312.AA23430@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504200312.AA23430@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050420071924.GC22384@lug-owl.de> On Wed, 2005-04-20 03:12:10 +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Dan Williams wrote: > Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > > On Tue, 2005-04-19 20:11:51 +0000, Michael Sokolov > org> wrote: > > > So, does anyone have a copy of the VXT EX load image? TIA for any help= > > > > I've got a boot image for a VXT2000+ around somewhere, but I don't know > > what kind it is exactly. > > Now I've looked at the EWS documentation and realised that it won't do what > I need after all because it's based on X11R3 and predates MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 > and XDMCP, so it'll be unacceptable security-wise. Which means that I'll > have to cash out for a VXT 2000 so I can run VXT EX on the hardware it's > designed for. :-( It would be nice if you'd make your VXT2000 images available to me. That could possibly help me at some time. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 20 02:41:55 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 00:41:55 -0700 Subject: At Last - A Control Data 160-A! Message-ID: <426607C3.8080704@ix.netcom.com> Eric Smith wrote: >> Put it in the garage, powered it up and it ran! >What??? You didn't test the DC power supplies first? Naughty, >naughty! Well, it pwered up and ran when I bought it. Tested it then of course - wouldn't spend that kind of money on a dead one now. So my main concern was damage caused by the move, especially the memory. And 160-A would sometimes need module reinsertion after a move. The power supply was one of the old Ault Magnetics types with ferro-resonant transformers and built like a boat anchor. I've never heard or seen of one going bad. If it ever did, you'd need a very muscular friend to help you move it. So I felt pretty confortable turning on AC without a pre-test. The typewriter chassis is a different story. The power supply was cut out with a pair of dykes! I'm going to be putting in some hours of wire splicing, tracing, testing before I put the PC boards back in. >Los Altos Typewriter. They restored the IBM Model B electric >typewriters used as console devices on CHM's IBM 1620 and DEC PDP-1. >Don't expect them to do anything with the computer interface part, but >they do great work on the typewriter mechanism. >Eric Thanks for the name - I will visit them and get an estimate. The typewriter mechanism and encoder, I feel comfortable with. Fixed enough of them over the years. It's the cosmetics that suck. And some of the rubber grommets are powder. My biggest worry - the rubber belts and power roller look to be in great shape. Even the platen doesn't seem to be hard or cracked. It's the chassis panels that I will need help with. I can get the rust off and primer it. But to keep the original texture, I'm going to have to match the color and paint type. These were originally given multiple coats and baked. How far do you go on restorations? Match original paint or just the color? Use current spray paint or the old enamels? What have others on the list done for paint restoation? What do the museums do? Billy PS: Anybody one the list have a couple rolls of 1" paper tape they'd like to sell? I'm down to 2 half rolls, barely enough for adjusting the two punches. From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Wed Apr 20 03:46:24 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:46:24 +0200 Subject: LOL !! References: <200504200606.j3K66Lnl056413@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000c01c54585$6ede5a80$2101a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Computer Collector Newsletter" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 8:07 AM Subject: LOL !! > Can you believe some schmuck put this under "vintage computers"...!!?? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4193&item=5186732050& > rd=1 > > And how about his Stradivarius Violin "by ...." for peanuts ?? Nico From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 04:27:32 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:27:32 +0100 Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image In-Reply-To: <0504200312.AA23430@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504200312.AA23430@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <26c11a6405042002275f60cb88@mail.gmail.com> > Now I've looked at the EWS documentation and realised that it won't do what > I need after all because it's based on X11R3 and predates MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 > and XDMCP, so it'll be unacceptable security-wise. Which means that I'll > have to cash out for a VXT 2000 so I can run VXT EX on the hardware it's > designed for. :-( > > MS > In what situation are you going to use this that makes security a problem ? Dan From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Apr 20 06:57:05 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:57:05 +1200 Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update References: <3.0.6.32.20050419073848.00979100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050419211104.0093c7a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <027f01c545a0$12440a20$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 1:11 PM Subject: Re: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update > > I don't know for certain but I suspect that if you keep it in a > good dry > environment that it will be fine. > > Joe The CRT on my 9845 was fine, prior to being stored for some years in a cold and slightly damp (in winter) environment. This was before it was disposed of by the previous owner, my former employer. It has, of course, been kept warm and dry since then! DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 19/04/2005 From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Apr 20 07:06:56 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:06:56 +1200 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop><20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net><20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca><20050419174820.S659@localhost><20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net><4265BECE.6010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <028301c545a1$728f1cc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wai-Sun Chia" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 4:33 PM Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > On 4/20/05, woodelf wrote: >> Scott Stevens wrote: >> >> >>If things had worked out differently we might be using >> >>ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one >> >>package! >> >> >> They have them already --- look at Dekatron decade counters. >> Also a nice example of them in action. >> http://anita-calculators.info/html/mk_8.html > > Wow. That is sooo coool... > What other pseudo-SSI tubes exist/existed? I mean for higher-level > functions; e.g. adders, counters, flipflops, decoders,....(TTL > equivalents). They were mainly used as counting and display tubes- good collection of such shown here-- http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electricstuff/count.html Another fairly well known one was the Williams storage tube-- http://www.computer50.org/kgill/williams/williams.html Probably some more I can't recall just now. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.17 - Release Date: 19/04/2005 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 20 09:29:28 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 07:29:28 -0700 Subject: At Last - A Control Data 160-A! In-Reply-To: <426607C3.8080704@ix.netcom.com> References: <426607C3.8080704@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <200504200729.28174.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 00:41, Billy Pettit wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: > >> Put it in the garage, powered it up and it ran! > > > >What??? You didn't test the DC power supplies first? Naughty, >naughty! > > So I felt pretty confortable turning on AC without a pre-test. Consider youself fortunate - Capacitors do fail when they have not been re-formed. We found several such instances in restoring the PDP-1 - and I've seen it on other older systems (like my former PDP-12). BTW: I am "happily" envious of your acquisition. The CDC-160A was my first "home computer" back in the late sixties. I was working in IBM's Poughkeepsie System Development Lab on System/360 - but I wanted a home computer so bad I could taste it. I shopped around - and a used CDC-160A was all I chose to "afford". Mine, however, used a Frieden Flexowriter for I/O along with the usual PT reader and punch. Sigh, fond remembrances... > >Los Altos Typewriter. They restored the IBM Model B electric > >typewriters used as console devices on CHM's IBM 1620 and DEC PDP-1. > >Don't expect them to do anything with the computer interface part, but > >they do great work on the typewriter mechanism. > > > >Eric I second Eric's "motion" that the LA Typewriter folks are really good - and would add they are interesting folks. It's been a family run typewriter business in Los Altos for many years... > My biggest worry - the rubber belts and power roller look to be in great > shape. Even the platen doesn't seem to be hard or cracked. That's really great! - the platen's often show wear, tear and cracks. > It's the chassis panels that I will need help with. I can get the rust > off and primer it. But to keep the original texture, I'm going to have > to match the color and paint type. These were originally given multiple > coats and baked. > > How far do you go on restorations? Match original paint or just the > color? Use current spray paint or the old enamels? What have others on > the list done for paint restoation? > > What do the museums do? Try to be close to the original as possible in type, finish, etc... Best wishes on you restoration!!!! Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 09:37:12 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:37:12 -0500 Subject: OT??? I dont know Message-ID: I dont know if this is off topic or not. Seems like every time I post to this list I am chastised for OT. To me any computer over 5 years old is an antique. But I would accept the definiton that any computer that used dual triodes was an antique, like the IBM 7070 that I cut my teeth on. BUT....be that as it may, I have several old computers that I am considering disposing of, but before I do I am wondering if they are "classics" Case in point: Nixdorf LK 3000 Electronic Notebook -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 20 09:37:08 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:37:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405042002275f60cb88@mail.gmail.com> References: <0504200312.AA23430@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <26c11a6405042002275f60cb88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504200937.09145.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 04:27, Dan Williams wrote: > > Now I've looked at the EWS documentation and realised that it won't > > do what I need after all because it's based on X11R3 and predates > > MIT-MAGIC-COOKIE-1 and XDMCP, so it'll be unacceptable > > security-wise. Which means that I'll have to cash out for a VXT > > 2000 so I can run VXT EX on the hardware it's designed for. :-( > > > > MS > > In what situation are you going to use this that makes security a > problem ? He doesn't want aliens snooping on his X-sessions. ;-) (note smiley face above). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 20 09:45:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 08:45:06 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419174820.S659@localhost> <20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net> <4265BECE.6010405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <42666AF2.6030603@jetnet.ab.ca> Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >Wow. That is sooo coool... >What other pseudo-SSI tubes exist/existed? I mean for higher-level >functions; e.g. adders, counters, flipflops, decoders,....(TTL >equivalents). > > Now if you want analog -- 1926 was good year. :) http://www.oldradioworld.de/3nf.htm From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 20 10:00:59 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:00:59 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050419174820.S659@localhost> References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop> <20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net> <20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net> <42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419174820.S659@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050420095438.04b00ee8@mail> At 07:49 PM 4/19/2005, you wrote: >If things had worked out differently we might be using >ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one >package! Doesn't this possibility periodically revive itself, at least in press releases? That some jobs are still done well by vacuum tubes and not silicon? As a kid, I spent a lot of time harvesting junk from the back of TV repair shops. (Yes, back in the day when we fixed TVs, kids.) So I have a visceral affection for metal in glass. I remember breaking the tubes and extracting the little rings holding the 'getter', which was calcium carbide. Most recently, I had a tour of a small radio station by the old engineer who kept it running with spit and baling wire. I was envious of his nice collection of old huge tubes from the transmitters he'd worked on. Let me guess. I can buy similar tubes on eBay? - John From jdbryan at acm.org Wed Apr 20 10:04:54 2005 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:04:54 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <20050420005333.47241.qmail@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: 6667 Message-ID: <200504201505.j3KF4uqf000901@mail.bcpl.net> On 19 Apr 2005 at 17:53, David Comley wrote: > My serial number is 2203A01125 so that would confirm > the 1982 date. > > Does your documentation give any indication of which > jumpers need to be changed to reconfigure the drive ? Awww...nuts. I opened up my 9134A Opt 010 S/N 2203A02408 to get the strap info, and it has the old 09135-69501 "unstrappable" controller card inside. So I went back to the service doc, and I had misread the table of starting serial numbers. The 2151A04165 number I quoted was for the 9135A. The proper number for the 9134A is 2203A03086. And, for completeness, the starting number for the 9133A is 2239A01446. Before those, the controller is specific to the one-volume or four-volume configuration. After those, a single strappable controller is used. So I'm afraid that your drive is permanently set for the four-volume configuration and so won't be usable on a 64000. Sorry. -- Dave From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 20 10:22:07 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:22:07 -0400 Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video References: Message-ID: <010201c545bc$b7be5700$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> (pre-about-1997) HP devices ... have serial numbers of the form... > KB Alert: This is a good tidbit for the knowledge base. I think the idea is that Jay isn't going to do it for you. Either you or Tony have to make the entry. John A. From news at computercollector.com Wed Apr 20 10:45:27 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:45:27 -0400 Subject: OT??? I dont know In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504201544.j3KFi93B060350@dewey.classiccmp.org> Yes, the LK-3000 is vintage and on-topic. I have three of them. It's from 1978 and the patents go back to 1976. The reason it's not off-topic isn't because of its age, but because it's far more than just a language translator. With the plug-in modules, it's a database and a notepad -- in short, one of several predecessors to the modern PDA. Now, as for your "any computer over 5 years old is an antique" statement, well that's just silly. Perhaps a PC from 2000 is an "antique" in the sarcastic sense of Win XP having ridiculous resource requirements, but otherwise, of course not. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Isbell, W5JAI Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 10:37 AM To: Mail List for Computer Talk Subject: OT??? I dont know I dont know if this is off topic or not. Seems like every time I post to this list I am chastised for OT. To me any computer over 5 years old is an antique. But I would accept the definiton that any computer that used dual triodes was an antique, like the IBM 7070 that I cut my teeth on. BUT....be that as it may, I have several old computers that I am considering disposing of, but before I do I am wondering if they are "classics" Case in point: Nixdorf LK 3000 Electronic Notebook -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 20 11:20:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: <010201c545bc$b7be5700$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, John Allain wrote: > >> (pre-about-1997) HP devices ... have serial numbers of the form... > > KB Alert: This is a good tidbit for the knowledge base. > > I think the idea is that Jay isn't going to do it for you. > Either you or Tony have to make the entry. I would, but I forgot the URL to the KB, and the CC home page has no links whatsoever to anything. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 20 11:25:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:25:07 +0000 Subject: test Message-ID: <1114014307.15682.2.camel@weka.localdomain> sorry! From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 20 11:34:38 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:34:38 -0700 Subject: Dead Mac IIcx Message-ID: <1gvb8ln.8vexidgenpdsM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> I decided to pull out my first Mac and try to boot it. It won't boot. The power button on the mother board and the keyboard both do nothing. So I decided to test the power suppily. I could not find any pinouts for a IIcx power suppily. Does anyone have that information? Also I took a close look at the motherboard. It has 7 silver cans. Capacitors I think. They are all surounded by a thin layer of sticky goo. Is this a sure sign my caps have leaked? I appologize for the blury photo, but it gets my point across. You'll also notice my batery is pulled. Everything on I've read so far say a IIcx should boot without the batery. Thanks for the help! -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From medavidson at mac.com Wed Apr 20 11:58:53 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 09:58:53 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <20050419215028.V910@localhost> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> <20050419215028.V910@localhost> Message-ID: <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> On Apr 19, 2005, at 9:58 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> My big question is how to remove the front or side panels. I know >> the front panels should "pop off", but I tried pulling one or two and >> they are on tight. > > PULL HARD! > Yeah, I thought so... I'll try to get them off tonight. > >> 3) Pull out the drive and check the heads... and pray they locked >> the heads down; once that's verified, I'd unlock them > > Buy some lintfree swabs, 99% alcohol and clean 'em anyways. I > found it simply easier to remove the big metal cover from the > drive, loosen the screws holding down the plastic cover of the > heads, slide it back 1" (without otherwise removing it) and > getting a good clean shot at inspection and cleaning. > Ok... I'll probably end up taking some photos so I can make sure I'm doing the right thing. > At least my 6070 has a toggle switch inside, on the servo board, > that disables the head servos; DISABLE, power the drive up switch > to RUN and let it purge for an hour; this is recommended in the > service docs. The platters will spin, brush cycle runs, air pumps, > presumably flings off all the dust. > > Appreciate the advice... I'll try to get into the drive by this weekend, and run a test on it. >> 4) Apply power individually to the units (tape, CPU, disk). Make >> sure they power up ok. > > Most peripherals are pretty much stanalone; the tape drives will > mount, BOT, rewind, etc with the CPU off. It helps. > Yes, I remember that. And yes, that does help! > >> Suggestions are most welcome... it's been years since I worked with >> one of these beasts. I'm only a "semi" hardware guy... I can do some >> checking, but I don't have a lot of diagnostic experience with these >> machines. > > I'm OK with hardware but I'm no DG expert. This is my only > minicomputer. Bruce Ray knows a lot though. I assume you've seen > www.simulogics.com... > > Oh, Bruce has been VERY helpful! I'm keeping in constant touch with him! By the way, someone has a VERY nice MV/10000 setup available on EBay... see http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5187714393 for a complete system. It's in St Paul, MN and would be a wonderful machine to save! Mark From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 12:29:12 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A,VT420 composite video In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050420172912.18382.qmail@web30610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "J. David Bryan" wrote: > 9135A. The proper > number for the 9134A is 2203A03086. And, for > completeness, the starting > number for the 9133A is 2239A01446. Before those, > the controller is > specific to the one-volume or four-volume > configuration. After those, a > single strappable controller is used. Thanks for looking anyway. I appreciate the assistance. > So I'm afraid that your drive is permanently set for > the four-volume > configuration and so won't be usable on a 64000. > Sorry. But on the plus side I now have a good reason to look out for other HP systems that *will* work with this unit. That's what I like about this hobby. It's so self-perpetuating. Regards, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 20 12:32:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 10:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Bulk] Re: HP CRT mould update Message-ID: <200504201732.KAA04895@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Mine doesn't. I bought seven HP 64000s a couple of years ago and none of >> them had the problem. Their (the 64000s) CRTs were all made by Clinton but >> they were still perfect. However they were stored on the second floor of a >> large barn like building and it was bone dry. However it was un-air >> conditioned and within site of the Atlantic coast. I don't know the history >> of any of the other systems that I got except for the first HP9845. It had >> been stored in a cheap leaky aluminium shed for a number of years and it's >> CRT was full of spots. My Soroc came from a surplus store and it's CRT is >> perfect but the store had just gotten it and I have no idea where it came >> from before that. > >My stuff has always been stored in dry areas with fairly stable >temperatures year round so who knows. > >Another computer that gets affected that I just remembered is the Imlac. >My Imlac has it bad, and Tom Uban's has it as well. > Hi I think most times, it is that the plastic pulls away from the glass as the plasticizer evaporates. There are issues of mold attacking but I don't think this is the common failure that looks like fern leaves. I would suspect that one can protect a CRT that one expected might have troubles by carefully sealing the edges of the front shield with RTV. One might consider a repair by placing the CRT in a vacuum chamber such that their was some of that windshield repair fluid in a small dam around the edge. One would pump it out for at least one day and then while under the vacuum pour the repair stuff around it. Then release the vacuum and allow the repair stuff to be pulled into the glass. Not an easy process but it might work. Dwight From aijones2 at bsu.edu Wed Apr 20 12:32:25 2005 From: aijones2 at bsu.edu (Andrew Jones) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:32:25 -0500 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) Message-ID: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock eight-bit ISA SCSI card. Does anyone think this is on the level? From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Apr 20 12:35:45 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:35:45 +0100 Subject: Dead Mac IIcx In-Reply-To: <1gvb8ln.8vexidgenpdsM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> References: <1gvb8ln.8vexidgenpdsM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <38d0aa5e4d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <1gvb8ln.8vexidgenpdsM%tlindner at ix.netcom.com> tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) wrote: > Also I took a close look at the motherboard. It has 7 silver cans. > Capacitors I think. They are all surounded by a thin layer of sticky > goo. Is this a sure sign my caps have leaked? > > They're tin-can SMD electrolytics, and are renowned for their ability to begin leaking with little provocation. Clean the affected board area with a suitable solvent and a stiff brush, then replace the caps. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Is this yours? Your dog left it on my lawn ... From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 20 12:56:53 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:56:53 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002701c545d2$56dfbf80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Tony Duell wrote: > I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I don't > think it's on bitsavers. The one I scanned is here: http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/11730z1.pdf I borrowed it to scan from someone so I no longer have the paper version. I *think* it is a reasonably complete printset for the CPU. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 20 12:59:41 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:59:41 -0500 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050420125900.04b65b08@mail> At 12:32 PM 4/20/2005, you wrote: >http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > >I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock eight-bit ISA SCSI card. >Does anyone think this is on the level? Future Domain was well-known back in the early days of SCSI on PCs. I remember that brand bundled with several types of devices, even recommended. - John From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 20 13:10:25 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:10:25 +0100 Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: <200504200053.RAA14854@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <002801c545d4$3b7f29e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Why is that such a capital crime? In the case cited, there seemed to be no reason not to fix the PSU - especially as it is not likely to be significantly easier to design a replacement than it is to simply fix the original. Slapping in an AT or ATX PSU (or PSUs) with no further modifications is not likely to work (especially if the intent is to use more than one such PSU). > I use a modified PC power > supply with a Commodore 64C, so should I just chuck the whole > thing and use a Commodore emulator because I'm unworthy of > grace due to the fact I didn't like the original unreliable 64 > brick? The C=64 brick is notorious for its lack of relaibility. If mine fails, I'll no doubt look to replacing it with something more sensible. A reversible modification to replace the PSU (which in the case of the C=64 is obviously going to be trivially reversible) would not cause me too much heartache. Similarly, replacing the linear PSUs in some old iron with modern switchers of much greater efficiency is something I would contemplate if that meant that I could afford to _run_ said old iron. Again, that would need to be a reversible modification and te original parts retained for future replacement. Until I get some old iron that fits the bill, this part will remain purely hypothetical :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 13:20:52 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:20:52 -0400 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. I've heard of Futuredomain, but do not have any of their products. I have _been_ to Wierd Stuff Warehouse; I even have a poster/calendar on my wall. The last thing I got from them was a complete boxed set of Interactive UNIX... several cubic feet of white boxes and binders. There are others on this list who have purchased _much_ more stuff from there than I have, but then I don't get to the Bay Area all that often. > Does anyone think this is on the level? Absolutely. -ethan From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Apr 20 13:24:01 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 05 18:24:01 GMT Subject: Looking for VT1300 load image Message-ID: <0504201824.AA24352@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote: > It would be nice if you'd make your VXT2000 images available to me. I have put them on my FTP site ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG in the directory /pub/DEC/VXT2000. Beware, though, that one of the files is 10 MB and my FTP server does not currently support restart in the middle. (I want to implement it in my ftpd, but never get the time to do it...) MS From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Apr 20 13:30:50 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 20 Apr 2005 19:30:50 +0100 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <1114021850.13409.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:32, Andrew Jones wrote: > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > Does anyone think this is on the level? To go with it, Scan are selling 36x SCSI CDROM drives for ?2.99 today (?4.99 normally!): http://www.scan.co.uk/products/productinfo.asp?WebProductID=202788 -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Apr 20 13:32:45 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 11:32:45 -0700 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <200504201132.45614.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 11:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: > > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > I've heard of Futuredomain, but do not have any of their products. Years ago, as a VAR, I used Futuredomain SCSI controllers. You will probably want to check that they are supported by whatever OS you are going to use... > I have _been_ to Wierd Stuff Warehouse; I even have a poster/calendar > on my wall. The last thing I got from them was a complete boxed set > of Interactive UNIX... several cubic feet of white boxes and binders. > There are others on this list who have purchased _much_ more stuff > from there than I have, but then I don't get to the Bay Area all that > often. I'm there at least once a week - and know all of the management well. They are honest folks and have been in business for 17 years or more. Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cctech at randy482.com Wed Apr 20 13:36:03 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:36:03 -0500 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <005d01c545d7$d2541c60$873dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 1:20 PM > On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: >> http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 >> >> I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the >> company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock >> eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > I've heard of Futuredomain, but do not have any of their products. > > I have _been_ to Wierd Stuff Warehouse; I even have a poster/calendar > on my wall. The last thing I got from them was a complete boxed set > of Interactive UNIX... several cubic feet of white boxes and binders. > There are others on this list who have purchased _much_ more stuff > from there than I have, but then I don't get to the Bay Area all that > often. > >> Does anyone think this is on the level? > > Absolutely. > > -ethan I've used Future Domain controllers (I may even have a couple laying around), they were bought out by Adaptec where support is still available. I believe they went out of business after SCSI-II but before any 16-bit SCSI bus systems were developed (they had 16-bit ISA adaptors that could connect to 8-bit SCSI-II devices). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Apr 20 13:36:22 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 13:36:22 -0500 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <4266A126.4070400@oldskool.org> Andrew Jones wrote: > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > Does anyone think this is on the level? Most definitely, as I have a few. I also have a CorelSCSI card, near mint in box with instructional videotape :-) and other materials... EXCEPT the driver disks. I was hoping to use the card to hook up a hard drive or even CDROM drive to an old PC, but without the drivers it's useless to me. Does anyone know where I could find the drivers for it? I am willing to part with it, if someone else's need outweighs mine... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 20 13:45:36 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:45:36 +0000 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <1114022737.15698.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 14:20 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: > > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > I've heard of Futuredomain, but do not have any of their products. They were eventually gobbled up by Adaptec I believe - in fact a lot of the later boards have Adaptec chipsets and identify themselves as Adaptec boards. By all accounts they're decent enough boards though. (Funnily enough I've got one of their 16 bit ISA boards sitting on the floor here awaiting a new home) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 20 13:52:22 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:52:22 +0000 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <1114021850.13409.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> <1114021850.13409.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <1114023142.15682.14.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 19:30 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:32, Andrew Jones wrote: > > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > > > Does anyone think this is on the level? > To go with it, Scan are selling 36x SCSI CDROM drives for ?2.99 today > (?4.99 normally!): > http://www.scan.co.uk/products/productinfo.asp?WebProductID=202788 They're still 4.99 according to the site... but wow, that's a nice price. I'm kinda tempted to buy a few (being Toshiba they probably are jumper-selectable between 512 and 2048 byte block size too). I still use SCSI on all my modern systems, but I think 12x is the fastest I have... If only I could find a decent SCSI burner :-( cheers Jules ps. 32x by the way, not 36x :) From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed Apr 20 14:01:17 2005 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:01:17 -0400 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <1114021850.13409.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> <1114021850.13409.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <4266A6FD.2050200@splab.cas.neu.edu> Future Domain was in the SCSI controller business for a long time. I expect it is legit. Joe Heck Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:32, Andrew Jones wrote: > >>http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 >> >>I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the >>company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock >>eight-bit ISA SCSI card. >> >>Does anyone think this is on the level? > > To go with it, Scan are selling 36x SCSI CDROM drives for ?2.99 today > (?4.99 normally!): > http://www.scan.co.uk/products/productinfo.asp?WebProductID=202788 From medavidson at mac.com Wed Apr 20 14:05:28 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:05:28 -0700 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: On Apr 20, 2005, at 11:20 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: >> http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 >> >> I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the >> company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock >> eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > I've heard of Futuredomain, but do not have any of their products. > As have I... they used to be one of the companies that came highly recommended (as, I believe, were well-supported by most early PC Unix implementations). Unfortunately, I no longer have any of their cards. > I have _been_ to Wierd Stuff Warehouse; I even have a poster/calendar > on my wall. The last thing I got from them was a complete boxed set > of Interactive UNIX... several cubic feet of white boxes and binders. > There are others on this list who have purchased _much_ more stuff > from there than I have, but then I don't get to the Bay Area all that > often. > As have I... in fact, if you've seen my postings about my recent Data General MV/4000 purchase, then you've seen something I bought at Weird Stuff (and they delivered for me). I love going to browse there. You always have NO idea what you will find. I happen to live in the Bay Area, so getting over there is just a matter of driving a few miles. Mark From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 20 14:11:44 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:11:44 -0400 Subject: Got the HP9k system booted! was: New find & HP-UX p/w? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050419075719.00979970@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <3.0.6.32.20050324082413.00946cb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050324152656.02e10e78@mail.netsync.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20050408090858.0295cf40@mail.netsync.net> <4256D6CF.4405EC01@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> <3.0.6.32.20050419075719.00979970@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050420135437.02e79920@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 07:57 19-04-05, Joe R. said something like: >At 11:18 PM 4/18/05 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Another important question is whether this machine can be made y2k > >compliant? > > I'm pretty certain that it is, even the HP 9836 (aka 9000 236) was Y2K >compliant. (the battery backup and clock were optional). > >I had to replace the 3V lithium coin cell on the main CPU board > >and the machine prompted for a date/time upon bootup. Wouldn't take > >anything above 99 so I set it at 95, exactly 10 years in the past. Date > >entry is in the form of MMDDhhmm[yy]. When 05 is entered for yy the date > >always displays as 1970. Seems 70 to 99 only work. > > That's interesting! Maybe it's NOT Y2K compliant. I'll try to look and >see if I have a manual for this machine that covers the clock. What model >exactly is it? Joe, the machine model is 9000/375. The CPU module is a 98574 which has the "L" board with the 50 MHz 68030 and 68882 FPU and a big heap of other logic on it. If it means anything, the main board p/n is 98574-69511 with rev C artwork and another sticker next to it has C-3130 on it, which is in the format of certain part numbers used by HP. The "L" board is 98574-66512 rev A. There are two A-3110-56 RAM modules totaling 8 meg. I would certainly be interested in a copy of said manual if you have it! There seems to be nothing, documentation-wise, on these machines available anywhere else from what I can see. As I had offered before, the manuals could be scanned and put on Al's bitsavers.org site for all to use. Thanks again. -Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From fernande at internet1.net Wed Apr 20 14:13:05 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:13:05 -0400 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <4266A9C1.7030306@internet1.net> The Microchannel Future Domain cards are great. They just seem to work. I can't say the same for the Adaptec Microchannel cards that I have. I would think an ISA version would work pretty well too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Andrew Jones wrote: > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > Does anyone think this is on the level? > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 20 14:51:55 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:51:55 +0100 Subject: NEC "Advanced Personal Computer"? & Secure data removal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003401c545e2$68d08a70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> William Donzelli wrote: > It is thought that NO amount of reading and writing will > completely scramble a disk. There is a reason why the > NSA/CIA/FBI/military disintegrates their disks. Which is why the FBI, NSA and CIA are still sharing that 20MB drive they purchased in 1989 to store their combined 80PB databases :-) It's quite obvious why they often shred their disks: if their is a non-zero risk that some other procedure might lead to WW3 (or worse yet, a significant career hit for the security officer involved) exactly which option do you think they might pick? In addition, exhibiting any sign of a lack of elevated levels of paranoia in such a position is quite possibly an even greater career risk than developing a sense of humour! It's also probably cheaper to destroy the disk than to follow any fixed wiping procedure. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Apr 20 15:42:52 2005 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian R. Fandt) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:42:52 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20050420151219.02e79690@mail.netsync.net> Upon the date 22:44 19-04-05, Ethan Dicks said something like: >On 4/19/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > The 11/730 CPU... normal configurations seem to be : --snip-- > > I am _still_ looking for the CPU board printset... I don't think it's on > > bitsavers. > >Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for >the 11/730-Z (the configuration we've been discussing)... I know it >covers cable runs (which are quite intricate in that box), and it >_may_ have CPU board prints; I'll have to check. Ohhhh, I would like a copy of any 11/730 docs you may find! The only things on bitsavers is a field maint printset for the assembly of a variant of the 730 called the Config. Pkg 76. Has a few useful bits in there on the mechanicals and cable connections but no schemas or suchlike. Also there is a 107 page Installation Guide which has a bunch of useful general info including a list of documentation relative to the 11/730 found on page 1-4. My machine is the 11/730 SBB pictured on page 1-3. Lacking is an available mass storage cabinet but I would like to shortcut the system size and find a small hard disk to mount internally and an appropriate controller board (not SCSI - I cannot afford another mortgage on this house:-\ ) which would allow me to run VMS 5.5 that I have on hand or at least whichever one of the *BSD versions that have been ported to the 730. Mounting a 5 1/4" or even a 3 1/2" hard disk inside the cabinet (or even the BA-11 itself) would be just ducky since there is very little room to spare around this house. Who's been thinking further on an IDE/Unibus interface over the past couple of months?? Qbus too? Regards, Chris F. NNNN Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt at netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Apr 20 15:54:52 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:54:52 +1200 Subject: Classic but analog References: <000c01c54494$9ecb4f60$0590d6d1@randylaptop><20050418221101.O86437@shell.lmi.net><20050419144505.Y4757@shell.lmi.net><42659D0E.90203@jetnet.ab.ca><20050419174820.S659@localhost><20050419204015.689540ba.chenmel@earthlink.net><4265BECE.6010405@jetnet.ab.ca> <028301c545a1$728f1cc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: <039401c545eb$33e76140$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Well worth a look- http://www.philbrickarchive.org/ DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.19 - Release Date: 20/04/2005 From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Apr 20 16:29:23 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 20 Apr 2005 22:29:23 +0100 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <1114023142.15682.14.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> <1114021850.13409.4.camel@ljw.me.uk> <1114023142.15682.14.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1114032563.14055.3.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 19:52, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 19:30 +0100, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > > On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:32, Andrew Jones wrote: > > > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > > > > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > > > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > > > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > > > > > Does anyone think this is on the level? > > To go with it, Scan are selling 36x SCSI CDROM drives for ?2.99 today > > (?4.99 normally!): > > http://www.scan.co.uk/products/productinfo.asp?WebProductID=202788 > > They're still 4.99 according to the site... but wow, that's a nice > price. I'm kinda tempted to buy a few (being Toshiba they probably are > jumper-selectable between 512 and 2048 byte block size too). ?2.99 here, until some time tomorrow morning: http://www.scan.co.uk/todayonly/ (about 3/4 the way down the page) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 20 16:38:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 16:38:33 -0500 Subject: HP find, plus some good DEC stuff too... and CDC.. and... Message-ID: <000701c545f1$4dd72f30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Got a call from my High School, they had found more "old computer junk" in a little used closet under a stairwell. They said "come get it out", so I did, and I was pleasantly suprised. Here's what I found... Four, yep... FOUR of the rare HP 12920 MUX panels.. at least two of which have full cable sets!! These aren't the mux controller cards, this is the large metal bracket (which has it's own circuit board) that the 12920 mux set connects to. And the cables for these are a bi***, double hooded affairs on one end, centronics style connectors on the other, a three cable bundle. Anyways, this totally makes my day :) I will keep one or two, the rest are available for trade. A CDC 9715 "front panel filler kit". The CDC drive (a single one anyway) took 1/2 a 19" rack space horizontally. So this kit includes the extra filler panel to bring it across the 19" span. Also included are a full set of unit select plugs (look like they'd work on an RL02?). An Emulex SC02/SC11 disc controller. This looks to be Qbus. Dang. I have qbus systems I'd use it on, but I'd rather have a unibus controller ;) The board comes with some interesting things in the box. Full technical manual on the board, plus a handfull of color brochures and specification sheets (marketing glossy's) for all the different products that Emulex made in the way of disk controllers and such. Then there is an envelope with a large amount of the full line of emulex products glossy brochures/datasheets as well. An odd HP "power controller". I've never seen anything quite like this. The power controller is HP part 30311-60001. It has a lot of the standard HP power connectors (yeeehar! Battery eliminator plugs!!), and test points on the front for "battery test". Then there's a large bundle of power cables that goes to a rackmount panel with separate switches for "lower memory" and upper memory" standby and run with lights for DC status, battery status, etc. This sure seems like it would be some kind of power management for the 21MX M-series, but I've seen the battery backup option for the M series and this wasn't it. Odd. A partially canibalized HP 2112A power supply A CDC PA5A1 & PA5A2 hardware maintenance manual. The pictures look very much like the CDC 9715. Misc. parts from an 11/03 or maybe 11/23 front panel (the 3 white toggle switches assembly) - bezel & circuit board This appears to be a 3rd party manual for DEC memory - "CMV-1000 MOS Memory Manual" Then there's some manuals for various 9" monitors frequently used with old systems - sanyo, ball (a TD12/15 service manual), ikegami or something like that... I left a bunch of cannibalized 21MX power supply stuff behind, as well as some power supply parts for a 7970 tape drive. I will be going back to get those... as well as a pristine, apparently never installed brand new old-style HP 19" rack. Now I have a place to mount my other 7970E and 7906 and 7900A :) Lastly, some really odd stuff I left behind but will go back to get. I have no clue what this stuff is... honestly, it looks like stuff from an old Frankenstien laboratory in the movies. Desktop metal boxes in this mottled black paint, with HUGE brownish/redish dials on them that appear to be some type ceramic. Large analog meters on most of it. No brand name that I could see but it really didn't look "home brew". I could tell is was FAR older than the HP stuff I was looking for. Maybe when I get that stuff I can post a few pics and people could try to guess what it is. It's very clearly not computer related though - believe I saw a few tubes in some of them. Oh, I also got a voice coil with 5 heads attached to it. It's quite odd looking - the heads don't line up. There's maybe two heads on the bottom of the coil that are aligned "over under". Then there's a third one off to the side. Then a glass reticule, then two heads above that that didn't line up. Wierd. It looks like something that came off a borg arm ;) Regards, Jay West From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Apr 20 16:54:19 2005 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:54:19 -0400 Subject: HP find, plus some good DEC stuff too... and CDC.. and... In-Reply-To: <000701c545f1$4dd72f30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420175229.0522c3e8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Jay West may have mentioned these words: >Got a call from my High School, they had found more "old computer junk" in >a little used closet under a stairwell. They said "come get it out", so I >did, and I was pleasantly suprised. Here's what I found... [snippage] Damn... why can't *I* have a high-school like that? My high school doesn't even have the TRS-80 Model 4's I worked on "back in the day" - let alone anything more interesting... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Apr 20 17:16:29 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:16:29 -0700 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <4266D4BD.AA342613@msm.umr.edu> Future Domain started out in Orange county in a small office at Edinger and Redhill in Santa Ana / Tustin. At least when I ran across them while I was in the SCSI / SASI business. Early on there were Future Domain, Alltech various controllers with 53xx NCR controllers glued on them, and the Adaptec early 1542's. There was also a semiserious contender out in Pomona, called ADSI with an engineer whose name I forget that finally put out a small line of contollers and converters. There was also a company called OMTI (One more time Inc), who was eventually snarfed up by SMC, I think tha had some scsi to various devices controllers. They also made a host adapter. These were early, because at the time VLSI had not shot it's wad, and I think they made these SCSI chips up on contract. VLSI also at the time was making one of the follow on to Chip's and Technologies AT support set, and were trying to do video adapters. C&T had a huge lead for many months, and I think that VLSI was the first out with a much cheaper alternative, with their 5 chip set. Anyway, Future Domain eventually made a controller along the lines of the Adaptec 1542, and eventually similar to the 2940. The main thing about a controller like this is that the chip may do DMA, but the main SCSI state machine software is contained and executed by the main processor. This chip only runs the SCSI protocol from phase to phase, with DMA in the betters ones. Cheaper ones used the AT's method of doing programmed I/O and could only do interrupts of the AT to get the main processor (286, 386, 486, and early non pci 586 or Pentiums). This one probably has DMA, which means the I/O could run somewhat faster, however Bus Mastering controllers usually have a processor integrated in them. the 1542 and the F. D. equivalent, and later the 2930 (future domains last controller with an Adaptec badge on it) and the 2940's both have processors to run the Scsi Initiator state machine, and do most of the work once a crude program is downloaded into them. Jim This would have been long before Adaptec bough Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: > > http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/item/14178 > > > > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > I've heard of Futuredomain, but do not have any of their products. > > I have _been_ to Wierd Stuff Warehouse; I even have a poster/calendar > on my wall. The last thing I got from them was a complete boxed set > of Interactive UNIX... several cubic feet of white boxes and binders. > There are others on this list who have purchased _much_ more stuff > from there than I have, but then I don't get to the Bay Area all that > often. > > > Does anyone think this is on the level? > > Absolutely. > > -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Apr 20 17:45:13 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 15:45:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 'Futuredomain' 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <4266D4BD.AA342613@msm.umr.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> <4266D4BD.AA342613@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <38719.207.145.53.202.1114037113.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jim wrote: > There was also a company called OMTI (One more time Inc), who was > eventually snarfed up by SMC, I think you meant SMS. Eric From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 20 12:01:06 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:01:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Dead Mac IIcx In-Reply-To: <1gvb8ln.8vexidgenpdsM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> References: <1gvb8ln.8vexidgenpdsM%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <35051.195.212.29.83.1114016466.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > I decided to pull out my first Mac and try to boot it. It won't boot. > The power button on the mother board and the keyboard both do nothing. > > So I decided to test the power suppily. I could not find any pinouts for > a IIcx power suppily. Does anyone have that information? > > Also I took a close look at the motherboard. It has 7 silver cans. > Capacitors I think. They are all surounded by a thin layer of sticky > goo. Is this a sure sign my caps have leaked? > > > > I appologize for the blury photo, but it gets my point across. > > You'll also notice my batery is pulled. Everything on I've read so far > say a IIcx should boot without the batery. > > Thanks for the help! > > -- > tim lindner > tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright They might have leaked, but I would have thought that caps that size wouldn't have made such a mess. Try replacing the battery and zapping the PRAM. Gordon. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Apr 20 12:05:08 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:05:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT??? I dont know In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33340.195.212.29.83.1114016708.squirrel@195.212.29.83> > I dont know if this is off topic or not. Seems like every time I post > to this list I am chastised for OT. To me any computer over 5 years > old is an antique. But I would accept the definiton that any computer > that used dual triodes was an antique, like the IBM 7070 that I cut my > teeth on. > > BUT....be that as it may, I have several old computers that I am > considering disposing of, but before I do I am wondering if they are > "classics" > > Case in point: > > Nixdorf LK 3000 Electronic Notebook > At the risk of kicking off another huge thread of flames, I'd say that the 10 year rule is good right up to the point where cheap, common, commodity PCs become 10 years old. That said, I think that some machines *newer* than 10 years are borderline on-topic *if* they are "interesting" in some way - something likely to appeal to this group. Clearly, it has to be something you can't just buy in Dixons. Gordon. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Wed Apr 20 12:28:47 2005 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 12:28:47 -0500 Subject: New Space heater AKA: HP 9000/845 In-Reply-To: <42506946.BB161BD9@mindspring.com> References: <009301c542f9$6c96f6d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <42506946.BB161BD9@mindspring.com> Message-ID: you can run up to hpux 10.20 on an 845. -Bob >Hey Guys, > >Just picked up my "new" 9000/845. I already have a working 842S but >wanted another system for spares. For those that don't know, this is a >washing machine size system that sucks up 220 AC like it's free! > >Also got two HP-7980 Autoloader tape drives that are in excellent >condition. The've got HP-IB interfaces and will work with my smaller >HP-UX systems. I love watching those drives load a tape. The way the >tape snakes it's way through the machine is very cool. > >The system did not include any disks. That's OK, I've got spare HPIB >disks laying around here (somewhere). Suprisingly, it did not have a >network card installed. All the other systems I've seen this size had >networking installed. > >I also got the original HP-UX 8.0 OS and SUBSYSTEM install tapes (9 >track). I think the subsystem tapes include FORTRAN 77, PASCAL, and >HP-C. Does anyone know if those software versions will run on HP-UX >10.20? Are they codeword protected? > >And I got a buttload of HP-UX 8.0 DOCs. Including a "HP-PA Architecture >Workbook". > >See yas, >SteveRob -- bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Apr 20 18:04:10 2005 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 01:04:10 +0200 (MEST) Subject: IN MEMORIAN: Alf Jacob Munthe of Minnesund, Norway Message-ID: Hi, It is with great sadness that I report the death of fellow collector of old computer systems Alf Jacob Munthe, of the little town of Minnesund in Norway. Although it was expected, it still came too soon. The fatal desease he was fighting would win eventually, and it did. I hope he now enjoys endless being without the pain that kept torturing him. Alf Jacob contacted me last year, after a posting from Dave Dunfield on this list, regarding taking care of his babies, that being a set of mint-condition IMSAI systems. This did require several months of co-ordinating, but they are finally on their way to my place, where they will kept in the same way he cared for them. I wish his wife all the strength in dealing with his passing. Let this not start another discussion on wills and such.. just make sure you got that covered BEFORE it's needed. With kindest regards, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje at pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Apr 20 18:06:43 2005 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 01:06:43 +0200 Subject: new HP-2100 collector In-Reply-To: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> References: <42603AFA.1050904@Rikers.org> Message-ID: <1114038403.9097.3.camel@fortran> On Fri, 2005-04-15 at 17:06 -0500, Tim Riker wrote: > Seems I just took the plunge. I found a stash of hardware here and saved > it from the great bit bucket in the sky. Sweeeeeeeeeeet. I especially love that desk rack.That's the coolest desk I've ever seen in my life. Tore S Bekkedal From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 20 18:07:17 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:07:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050419174820.S659@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Apr 19, 5 05:49:53 pm Message-ID: > If things had worked out differently we might be using > ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one > package! I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which consisted of a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a single glass envelope. That contained 3 triodes and all the R's and C's. The idea did not catch on. The single glass device was expensive, and if any part failed you ad to replace the whole thing. Other radios were much cheaper to repair. A flip-flop valve would certainly be possible. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 20 18:35:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:35:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <002701c545d2$56dfbf80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Apr 20, 5 06:56:53 pm Message-ID: > The one I scanned is here: > http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/11730z1.pdf > > I borrowed it to scan from someone so I no longer have > the paper version. I *think* it is a reasonably complete > printset for the CPU. >From what I could see, the schematics for the 3 main CPU boards, the TU58, PSU, etc are there. So is the memory board. The IDC didn't seem to be, which is a pity. Oh well. It will certainly cut down the work I'll have to do to get my 11/730 running. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 20 18:11:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:11:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: <200504200053.RAA14854@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Apr 19, 5 05:53:24 pm Message-ID: > > To me, the power supply is as much a part of the original design as the > > CPU, the I/O boards, the peripherals, etc. If you don't care about > > keeping the hardware as original as possible, then you might as well run > > an emulator on a PC. > > Why is that such a capital crime? I use a modified PC power supply with a Remember I am a hardware person. The PSU is as much a part of the machine as anything else. Some PSUs have rather interesting designs, too, which need to be preserved. > Commodore 64C, so should I just chuck the whole thing and use a Commodore > emulator because I'm unworthy of grace due to the fact I didn't like the > original unreliable 64 brick? Hmm... IIRC the C64 brick is potted, and almost impossible to repair. Unlike the C128 brick, which is trivial to open, and not hard to repair (I've had mine apart). I think what I'd want to do in that case would be to build a replacement PSU that followed the design of the Commodore one as closely as possible, but which was repairable, and used generously-rated components so it was more reliable. But I would not want to replace the whole thing with a switcher, which is totally non-original. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 20 18:17:18 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:17:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 19, 5 10:44:38 pm Message-ID: > > Much the same, but with a TS05 (Cipher F880) 9-track mag-tape drive in > > place of the RL02, and a TSU05 controller in one of the Unibus slots. > > Ah... I'd forgotten about that configuration, but I don't think it was > very common. A TU80 alongside was somewhat common. That's the configuration my machine came in (A friend and I bought a pair of them). TS05 in the top, TSU05 card in the CPU box. It was a standard DEC configuration, it was mentioned explicitly in one of the manuals. > > > There are 2 serial ports (Console and Remote Diagnostics) built into the > > CPU. You can add things like the DZ11 if you want more. > > There's room in the I/O bulkheads for a DMF-32 (8 async, 1 sync, 1 > printer), and IIRC, it was somewhat common. My 11/730 came with a BA11 10.5" expansion box (BA11-K IIRC). It contained a DMF32, and something else which I forget. There was a little card in the Unibus Out slot of the CPU backplane that linked to the bulkhead with 3 ribbon cables, That took a flat screened cable with 3 connectors on each end that went to a similar bulkhead on the expansion rack, then 3 more ribbon cables to the Unibus In slot of the first backplane in the BA11. Again a standard DEC configuration according to the manuals I have. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 20 20:13:28 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 19:13:28 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4266FE38.3080304@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which consisted of >a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a single glass envelope. That >contained 3 triodes and all the R's and C's. > > > I posted a link to that earlier. I think at that time Germany had a large tax on radios, more tubes, bigger the tax. >The idea did not catch on. The single glass device was expensive, and if >any part failed you ad to replace the whole thing. Other radios were much >cheaper to repair. > > Two things I think killed that idea . 1) The tax laws may have changed permiting cheaper radios. 2) WWII Ben alias woodelf From dj.taylor at starpower.net Wed Apr 20 20:26:57 2005 From: dj.taylor at starpower.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:26:57 -0400 Subject: SMS FWD 0101 disk/floppy info? In-Reply-To: <200504161934.j3GJYsVs019080@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504161934.j3GJYsVs019080@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <6.0.1.1.0.20050420212520.01b4b878@pop.starpower.net> Brad There are some SMS documents on bitsavers.org that describe your particular hardware, and also the QBUS interface you are seeking. Doug At 03:34 PM 4/16/2005, you wrote: >Hi > >Anyone have any info on an 8" hard drive + 8" floppy combo which >appears to be an "SMS FWD 0101"? > >I believe this was used with a qbus system. I don't have the controller >card however, just the box and a 50 pin cable :-) > >The floppy looks like 8" double sided. The HD is 8" (been a while since >I've seen one of those). > >I'd love to find the mating QBUS controller card. > >The large card on top of the hd & floppy appears to have an 2901 and >an 8085 as well as other fun chips. > >(I just gotta stop clicking on those blue underlined words ;-) > >-brad From bpettit at ix.netcom.com Wed Apr 20 20:34:23 2005 From: bpettit at ix.netcom.com (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:34:23 -0700 Subject: WAS: SCSI CD drive capable ... IS: drivers for Phillips Changers Message-ID: <4267031F.5090509@ix.netcom.com> > Jim Stephens wrote: > > Any possibility of getting drivers for the Phillips changer type CD drives > for Linux? > > such as the 6 and 18 disc versions (or the 500 disc library?) > > Jim > Sorry but I don't remember seeing anything for Linux. The drivers my division sold were all for Microsoft Windows. And they were contracted out to Roxio or Nero. In fact, I don't remember seeing any drivers for the "jukebox" chasses except for the inhouse test systems. Billy From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed Apr 20 20:34:08 2005 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:34:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HPIB fundamentals and questions In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050421013409.34501.qmail@web30613.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Steve Robertson wrote: > About two years ago, I downloaded the GPIB source > for LINUX from a > website. I don't recall the URL but you should be > able to find it on > google. I never could get it to compile on my LINUX > box but, you might > have better luck. I was involved in some other > projects so, didn't spend > too much time tinkering with it. If you are > proficient in "C" you might > be able to get it to work. I have the compiled code installed on my machine. There were a couple of syntax errors somewhere in it. If you're interested I will send you the fixes. > > So... If you want to learn the basics of HPIB, hook > up one of the > printers to the analyzer and try sending the control > sequences. All you > have to do is address the printer to listen to the > bus and send an ASCII > string. The printer should print the string as you > send it. Works like a charm. Good instructions. Thanks ! I'll program your example using the gpib library for Linux and then experiment from there. Regards, Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 20 20:33:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need sample of CRT "mold" Message-ID: If someone can mail me a sample of the "mold" I've found a place that will test it. You can mail it to: VintageTech 2442 Research Drive Livermore, California 94550 Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From technobug at comcast.net Wed Apr 20 20:36:56 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:36:56 -0700 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > If things had worked out differently we might be using > ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one > package! In the '60s I saw a rocket control computer that was used in a high acceleration missile that was IIRC about 30 cm cubed. It was made up of layers of ceramic approximately 3-5 mm thick each containing around 50-100 "tubes" separated by a thin 2-3 mm layer of ceramic insulation. Each "tube" consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary grids (perforated plates), and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity. Everything was interconnected by metalization on the insulating layer. The necessary resistors/capacitors were placed in cavities between the "tubes". What made this extremely interesting was that all circuitry was differential to exclude the common mode voltages that were generated by the compression of the ceramic block during launch. At that time, solid state devices self-destructed during the acceleration phase. I imagine that any "personal" computer made with that technology would self-destruct any savings one had... CRC From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 20 20:37:23 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 02:37:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <4266FE38.3080304@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Apr 20, 5 07:13:28 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which consisted of > >a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a single glass envelope. That > >contained 3 triodes and all the R's and C's. > > > > > > > I posted a link to that earlier. I think at that time Germany had a (a) I read your message after I posted the above. (b) I read my mail off-line, and I am not going to dial in to check every URL that people post... (As a general point, I wish people would make some comment when they give URLs -- of the form 'Lowe one-tube radio' or whatever. > large tax on radios, > more tubes, bigger the tax. I've heard that such taxes lead to the introduction of multi-section valves (double triodes, double diode pentodes, triode hexodes, etc). But there was no need to put the R's and C's in the envelope too, and AFAIK the 'vacuum integated circuit' (:-)) was signfiicantly more expensive than the valves alone. The R's and C's were a significant cost. -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 20 20:49:07 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:49:07 -0500 Subject: HP find, plus some good DEC stuff too... and CDC.. and... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420175229.0522c3e8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <000c01c54614$4ed6fe10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Roger wrote... > Damn... why can't *I* have a high-school like that? My high school doesn't > even have the TRS-80 Model 4's I worked on "back in the day" - let alone > anything more interesting... Yeah, I was actually very lucky. When I was back in high school (78-82), they had an HP 2000/E my first two years, then upgraded it to an HP 2000/Access for junior & senior years. It had 32 terminals (a mix of Mime ACT I, ACT IV, and ACT V terminals, plus one mini-beehive, and at least four DEC LA120's as well as an ASR33). Also had two HP mark sense card readers (part number escapes me, something like 7621) and an HP 2610 printer. The terminals were spread throughout the school - library, student club areas, and of course, the computer room. We also had a DEC PDP-11/03 (or perhaps 11/23 - the one with the three white toggle switches), that had an RX02 and a Diablo drive (31?) that ran RT-11 w/TSX-Plus. This system had 6 terminals, again a mix of Mime ACT I, ACT IV, ACT V, and LA120's. Both of the above systems - students had unlimited access to (except 1,1 and A000). You could come early or stay late and or use your class breaks to spend as much time as you wanted on the systems. In addition to student use, the systems were also used to publish the school newspaper (Saturn 5 on the PDP), enroll and schedule students for classes, library catalog, etc. They were also used in several of the math classes, and the school offered two classes in BASIC programming (on the HP) and one class in FORTRAN on the PDP. Oh, the physics department had a Heathkit EC1 analog computer. The priest who ran the computer center also taught some basic electronics courses after class. I don't know others experiences, but I always figured that - for the time period - this high school had a computer setup that many colleges would envy. And as you can tell, these systems I played with in high school certainly directed my focus for my computer collecting habbit :) Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 20 21:09:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:09:56 -0500 Subject: HP find, plus some good DEC stuff too... and CDC.. and... References: <5.1.0.14.2.20050420175229.0522c3e8@mail.30below.com> <000c01c54614$4ed6fe10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002701c54617$3a34d420$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had written.... > Yeah, I was actually very lucky. When I was back in high school (78-82), Oh... and the HP 2000/Access system was hooked up to an IBM mainframe remotely over leased lines, so the high school students logged into the HP could send jobs with JCL & code to a local colleges mainframe. Was sweet :) Jay From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 20 21:18:33 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <4266FE38.3080304@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Two things I think killed that idea . > 1) The tax laws may have changed permiting cheaper radios. > 2) WWII It was mostly killed because it was just a dumb idea. By 1940, the Germans swung the other way, to *very* general purpose tubes, rather than super complex application specific types. To keep it on topic - I need most of the tubes, but most importantly, a manual, for the WW2 German FuG O3 "teletype" modem. A big multi-chassis FSK box, probably for modulating/demodulating Lorenz transmissions for two and four wire land lines. Long shot, but I have been fruitless elsewhere. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Apr 20 21:37:04 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 20:37:04 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <426711D0.2070407@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: >It was mostly killed because it was just a dumb idea. By 1940, the >Germans swung the other way, to *very* general purpose tubes, rather than >super complex application specific types. > > Ok was wrong in my guess. >To keep it on topic - I need most of the tubes, but most importantly, a >manual, for the WW2 German FuG O3 "teletype" modem. A big multi-chassis >FSK box, probably for modulating/demodulating Lorenz transmissions for two >and four wire land lines. Long shot, but I have been fruitless elsewhere. > > > Well how about a better long shot. Try the people at Bletchley Park in the UK. While were into code breaking the geman codes , I am sure the must have had some knowlage of the other equipment used transmit the codes. Good luck. >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 20 21:50:10 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:50:10 -0500 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: <20050419174820.S659@localhost> Message-ID: <20050420215010.664077a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 00:07:17 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > If things had worked out differently we might be using > > ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one > > package! > > I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which consisted > of a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a single glass envelope. > That contained 3 triodes and all the R's and C's. > > The idea did not catch on. The single glass device was expensive, and > if any part failed you ad to replace the whole thing. Other radios > were much cheaper to repair. > > A flip-flop valve would certainly be possible. > > -tony > My 'EPROM Eraser' uses a multi-element tube. It's actually an old quack medical device from the 1950's. It's a big 'cold quartz' UV lamp, and has a high voltage power supply in the base that uses one of the 'newer' versions of a multifunction tube, the 117L7GT, which is a tube with a 117 volt filament and (I believe) several different tube stages. Probably the _last_ versions of multifunction vacuum tubes were the 'Compactron' tubes, specifically designed multi-element tubes used in the 60's and 70's in sets sets designed to use with fewer tubes, i.e. portable tube-type televisions. Compactrons were in an envelope similar in shape to the common 7 and 9 pin mini tubes, but bigger with (if I recall correctly) 12 pins. Before anybody comments with alarm, yes, I know that the EPROM eraser is VERY dangerous (totally unshielded and a fairly powerful light source) but it's constructed in such a way that the light source can be positioned directly over a conductive mat of EPROMs so no light escapes, which is how I use it. I'm not sure what medical claims were made regarding it, but I did once find it 'displayed' on a website of historical Quack Medical devices. I guess you could do 'therapy' like staring into the bright blue quartz tube to go blind or something... From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 20 21:58:13 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:58:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <426711D0.2070407@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Well how about a better long shot. Try the people at Bletchley Park in > the UK. > While were into code breaking the geman codes , I am sure the must have had > some knowlage of the other equipment used transmit the codes. Thanks - that is my next shot. They may have received a manual or other info after the war. I think the wire traffic was intercepted en route, not at the terminals. I have had very little luck with the folks (mostly Europe based) that collect and study German equipment - they seem to be a very closed bunch. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 20 22:04:53 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 22:04:53 -0500 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504202204.53441.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 20 April 2005 18:17, Tony Duell wrote: > My 11/730 came with a BA11 10.5" expansion box (BA11-K IIRC). It > contained a DMF32, and something else which I forget. There was a > little card in the Unibus Out slot of the CPU backplane that linked > to the bulkhead with 3 ribbon cables, That took a flat screened cable > with 3 connectors on each end that went to a similar bulkhead on the > expansion rack, then 3 more ribbon cables to the Unibus In slot of > the first backplane in the BA11. That small 3-connector card for UNIBUS in/out is the same as what is used on an 11/780, to connect the DW780 to a BA11, FYI. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 20 22:11:14 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050420215010.664077a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Probably the _last_ versions of multifunction vacuum tubes were the > 'Compactron' tubes, specifically designed multi-element tubes used in > the 60's and 70's in sets sets designed to use with fewer tubes, i.e. > portable tube-type televisions. Compactrons were in an envelope similar > in shape to the common 7 and 9 pin mini tubes, but bigger with (if I > recall correctly) 12 pins. Certainly, multifunction tubes were around - the first ones were the dual diodes and rectifiers of the 1920s, then later twin triodes, extra diodes, and yes, to the ultimate Compactrons. Integrating the functions, like in the Loewe tubes, never caught on. In the US, a few directly coupled triodes were produced (6N6G being the most common), and some of the eye tubes had a built in triode as a driver, but for the most part, each function was pinned out individually. The most advanced integrated tube was probably the VT-158 Zahl tube - a 600 MHz pulse oscillator in a bulb. It was a dead end. On a side note, there are some really bizarre miniature tubes made for the electronic organ industry back in the 1950s - quad triodes (with shared grids), dual grid triodes, and so forth. These were specifically made for tone dividers. I suppose they could have been interesting computer tubes, but none were computer rated. They tend to be damn hard to find these days. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Apr 20 22:28:00 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:28:00 +0800 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: References: <20050420215010.664077a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 4/21/05, William Donzelli wrote: > Certainly, multifunction tubes were around - the first ones were the dual > diodes and rectifiers of the 1920s, then later twin triodes, extra diodes, > and yes, to the ultimate Compactrons. And pray tell what are Compactrons? > > Integrating the functions, like in the Loewe tubes, never caught on. In > the US, a few directly coupled triodes were produced (6N6G being the most > common), and some of the eye tubes had a built in triode as a driver, but > for the most part, each function was pinned out individually. The most > advanced integrated tube was probably the VT-158 Zahl tube - a 600 MHz > pulse oscillator in a bulb. It was a dead end. > Hmmmm...interesting.. So in the heydays of the tube/valve, they trend towards generalization of functions (anybody can say TTL?), and shy away from multifunction/integrated circuits. It is so ironic that the trend is reversed with the coming of transistors->IC->ASIC.. So some questions to throw to the tube collectors: - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? - What was/is the most integrated tube? purpose? /ws From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Apr 20 22:47:08 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And pray tell what are Compactrons? General Electric saw the coming of the super cheap television, so they came up with (rather stole from Western Electric) a short stubby 12 pin tube form, and started putting many different functions inside. With 12 pins, quite a few new permutations could be made - far more than could be done with the standard nine pins, or the short lived 10 pin tubes. With twelve pins, you could have three independednt triodes, or something useful with a pentode, and so forth. More functions in less bulbs means less tubes in the television which means less cost to manufacture. Most Compactrons these days are worthless. Nobody wants them, except for a small percentage of types. I have zillions. > - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and some test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really small - 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. Sylvania also made some subsubminis - tubes in T1 bulbs, but they never sold either. A T1 bulb is 1.8 inch in diameter. > - What was/is the most integrated tube? purpose? VT-158 Zahl Tube - a 600 MHz pulse oscillator in one package - tuned lines and everything. This made the main bang in the WW2 Army AN/TPS-3 radar. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From john3000 at cox.net Wed Apr 20 22:54:20 2005 From: john3000 at cox.net (John K.) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:54:20 -0400 Subject: HP 2000/Access 21MX-EEEEEEE version :> In-Reply-To: <00d901c5451e$fb010290$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20050420235339.02897138@pop.east.cox.net> Jay: Congrats! Glad to hear you have the 21MX-E up and running! John Korb At 2005-04-19 04:33 PM, you wrote: >Just booted it up and it runs wonderfully :) > >So, the IOP firmware for the E series has not only been found, but >confirmed to work! It was so neat to type "HEL-A000..." on a terminal this >morning. The dual E's are noticeably faster than my dual 2100 Access >system, but not as much faster as I would have expected. Odd, since the >processors are significantly faster, and using the high performance memory >option. > >The basement doesn't heat up quite as much running on two E's as opposed >to two 2100A/S. Also, I seem to be able to run it indefinitely without >tripping a circuit breaker. Nifty! I ran in to lots of cpu problems this >morning, and had to go through every one of my 21MX-E spare cpu's to get a >working combination. Yikes - makes me wish I hadn't given away all my E's. > >At some point in the future I should probably try the M series firmware >board, just to be sure that works as well. > >I also wound up having to scavenge some parts from my 2100 Access system >to get the MXE Access system up. Bummer! Hopefully some trades will >produce the necessary stuff to have both operational. Yup, I'm pondering >some RJE setup between the two :) Oh, except I apparently only have one >set of processor interconnect cables, thought I had two :\ Making up THOSE >cables will suck. > >Anyways... just wanted to let folks know that the E series IOP firmware is >definitely a go. The biggest problem I had was trying to figure out how to >set up the FAB board. I'd really have preferred to go the FEM route, but >Access is so hard-coded in the system processor side of things. > >Regards, > >Jay West John *** When replying to this message, please do not delete these *** *** signature lines. Otakon Katsucon HP3000-L @classiccmp.org *** From medavidson at mac.com Wed Apr 20 23:51:02 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:51:02 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> <20050419215028.V910@localhost> <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> Message-ID: <09f9f81ea75ff11e186c67fc9ecaf99f@mac.com> On Apr 20, 2005, at 9:58 AM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > On Apr 19, 2005, at 9:58 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> On Tue, 19 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: >> >>> My big question is how to remove the front or side panels. I know >>> the front panels should "pop off", but I tried pulling one or two >>> and they are on tight. >> >> PULL HARD! >> > > Yeah, I thought so... I'll try to get them off tonight. > Wow, I tried pulling VERY hard... they haven't been removed in years, I wouid imagine. I think I'll have better luck trying to get the side panels off first. In fact, I cracked the plastic on one connector that was on a panel over an empty area... where the plastic that connects to the rack forms a "handle" for you to pull on in order to remove them. Mark From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Apr 21 00:28:41 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:28:41 +0200 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes References: <20050420215010.664077a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003301c54632$faba4e30$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Wai-Sun Chia" > So some questions to throw to the tube collectors: > - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > - What was/is the most integrated tube? purpose? I "did" some time in a Logistics squadron when I did my national service in the dutch AirForce around 1964. We carried a spare part the size of about an ECC81, maybe a bit higher. It was a complete IF amplifier/filter for IIRC 10.7 MHz, including coils, capacitors, ... Nico From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Apr 21 02:26:06 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:26:06 +0100 Subject: PDP8 power supply G8018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4267558E.60008@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >>Commodore 64C, so should I just chuck the whole thing and use a Commodore >>emulator because I'm unworthy of grace due to the fact I didn't like the >>original unreliable 64 brick? > > > Hmm... IIRC the C64 brick is potted, and almost impossible to repair. > Unlike the C128 brick, which is trivial to open, and not hard to repair > (I've had mine apart). > > I think what I'd want to do in that case would be to build a replacement > PSU that followed the design of the Commodore one as closely as > possible, but which was repairable, and used generously-rated components > so it was more reliable. But I would not want to replace the whole thing > with a switcher, which is totally non-original. You could get a third-party replacement C64 PSU which was a switcher. No, I don't know how they did the 12V AC line. They were incredibly reliable, ran very cool, and a fraction of the weight of the originals. Gordon. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 21 03:06:22 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:06:22 +0100 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Apr 2005 23:47:08 EDT." Message-ID: <200504210806.JAA15628@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, William Donzelli said: > > > - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > > RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and some > test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really small - > 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half > sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. > > Sylvania also made some subsubminis - tubes in T1 bulbs, but they never > sold either. A T1 bulb is 1.8 inch in diameter. There were some very small wire ended ones made for proximity fuzes in anti-aircraft shells. They are about the size of one of those small neons. Someone in the USA has a stock of new ones and I wouldn't mind getting a few to play with, but I've lost his address. Back in the '60s I had a little portable radio that used wire-ended valves/tubes about half an inch diameter and an inch long. There were also some vacuum tube ics being produced experimentally a few years ago with a few hundred planar devices in one package. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Apr 21 03:24:05 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:24:05 +1200 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes References: Message-ID: <04e801c5464b$7b20b600$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "Wai-Sun Chia" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:47 PM Subject: Re: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes snip--- >> - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > > RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and > some > test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really > small - > 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few > half > sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. Some mil gear (eg PRC-41) has very small ceramic tubes -not sure if they are quite as small as the Nuvistor but they must be close- likewise some hearing aid amp tubes were pertty damn small as well. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.19 - Release Date: 20/04/2005 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 05:04:28 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:04:28 +0000 Subject: Need sample of CRT "mold" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114077868.17042.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-20 at 18:33 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > If someone can mail me a sample of the "mold" I've found a place that will > test it. I suspect that wouldn't clear customs if I tried sending a bit from this side of the pond :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 05:49:47 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:49:47 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has absolutely no hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? We've got a *lot* of DEC documentation arrived on fiche (208 pages per fiche, estimated 25000 sheets) and scanning some of the more useful bits would be nice. So far the cost from commercial companies has either been too high or the quality has been far too low to actually be useful :-( cheers Jules From cheri-post at web.de Thu Apr 21 05:57:45 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:57:45 +0200 Subject: HP find, plus some good DEC stuff too... and CDC.. and... Message-ID: <754448185@web.de> Jay, it would be of great help, if somebody could scan the documents of the CDC drives. I own four of these beasts and neither don't know to configure them nor to repair them due to the lack of printsets. And I'm surely not the only one out there. Regards, Pierre "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" schrieb am 21.04.05 00:50:57: > > Got a call from my High School, they had found more "old computer junk" in a > little used closet under a stairwell. They said "come get it out", so I did, > and I was pleasantly suprised. Here's what I found... > > Four, yep... FOUR of the rare HP 12920 MUX panels.. at least two of which > have full cable sets!! These aren't the mux controller cards, this is the > large metal bracket (which has it's own circuit board) that the 12920 mux > set connects to. And the cables for these are a bi***, double hooded affairs > on one end, centronics style connectors on the other, a three cable bundle. > Anyways, this totally makes my day :) I will keep one or two, the rest are > available for trade. > > A CDC 9715 "front panel filler kit". The CDC drive (a single one anyway) > took 1/2 a 19" rack space horizontally. So this kit includes the extra > filler panel to bring it across the 19" span. Also included are a full set > of unit select plugs (look like they'd work on an RL02?). > > An Emulex SC02/SC11 disc controller. This looks to be Qbus. Dang. I have > qbus systems I'd use it on, but I'd rather have a unibus controller ;) The > board comes with some interesting things in the box. Full technical manual > on the board, plus a handfull of color brochures and specification sheets > (marketing glossy's) for all the different products that Emulex made in the > way of disk controllers and such. Then there is an envelope with a large > amount of the full line of emulex products glossy brochures/datasheets as > well. > > An odd HP "power controller". I've never seen anything quite like this. The > power controller is HP part 30311-60001. It has a lot of the standard HP > power connectors (yeeehar! Battery eliminator plugs!!), and test points on > the front for "battery test". Then there's a large bundle of power cables > that goes to a rackmount panel with separate switches for "lower memory" and > upper memory" standby and run with lights for DC status, battery status, > etc. This sure seems like it would be some kind of power management for the > 21MX M-series, but I've seen the battery backup option for the M series and > this wasn't it. Odd. > > A partially canibalized HP 2112A power supply > > A CDC PA5A1 & PA5A2 hardware maintenance manual. The pictures look very much > like the CDC 9715. > > Misc. parts from an 11/03 or maybe 11/23 front panel (the 3 white toggle > switches assembly) - bezel & circuit board > > This appears to be a 3rd party manual for DEC memory - "CMV-1000 MOS Memory > Manual" > > Then there's some manuals for various 9" monitors frequently used with old > systems - sanyo, ball (a TD12/15 service manual), ikegami or something like > that... > > I left a bunch of cannibalized 21MX power supply stuff behind, as well as > some power supply parts for a 7970 tape drive. I will be going back to get > those... as well as a pristine, apparently never installed brand new > old-style HP 19" rack. Now I have a place to mount my other 7970E and 7906 > and 7900A :) > > Lastly, some really odd stuff I left behind but will go back to get. I have > no clue what this stuff is... honestly, it looks like stuff from an old > Frankenstien laboratory in the movies. Desktop metal boxes in this mottled > black paint, with HUGE brownish/redish dials on them that appear to be some > type ceramic. Large analog meters on most of it. No brand name that I could > see but it really didn't look "home brew". I could tell is was FAR older > than the HP stuff I was looking for. Maybe when I get that stuff I can post > a few pics and people could try to guess what it is. It's very clearly not > computer related though - believe I saw a few tubes in some of them. > > Oh, I also got a voice coil with 5 heads attached to it. It's quite odd > looking - the heads don't line up. There's maybe two heads on the bottom of > the coil that are aligned "over under". Then there's a third one off to the > side. Then a glass reticule, then two heads above that that didn't line up. > Wierd. It looks like something that came off a borg arm ;) > > Regards, > > Jay West > > ______________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://f.web.de/?mc=021193 From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 21 06:19:38 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:19:38 -0400 Subject: SMS FWD 0101 disk/floppy info? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Apr 2005 21:26:57 EDT." <6.0.1.1.0.20050420212520.01b4b878@pop.starpower.net> Message-ID: <200504211119.j3LBJcKZ019643@mwave.heeltoe.com> Douglas Taylor wrote: >Brad > >There are some SMS documents on bitsavers.org that describe your particular >hardware, and also the QBUS interface you are seeking. yes! I must have missed that the first time I looked. thanks! -brad From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 21 06:28:54 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:28:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 10:49) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 10:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has absolutely no > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? > > We've got a *lot* of DEC documentation arrived on fiche (208 pages per > fiche, estimated 25000 sheets) and scanning some of the more useful bits > would be nice. So far the cost from commercial companies has either been > too high or the quality has been far too low to actually be useful :-( Sadly, you'll find normal scanners all have the "too low resolution" problem to handle fiche. You'll also find a lot of variation in DEC fiche quality. Have you got much XXDP fiche? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 06:57:08 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:57:08 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1114084628.17042.17.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 12:28 +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Apr 21 2005, 10:49, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has absolutely no > > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? > > > > We've got a *lot* of DEC documentation arrived on fiche (208 pages > per > > fiche, estimated 25000 sheets) and scanning some of the more useful > bits > > would be nice. So far the cost from commercial companies has either > been > > too high or the quality has been far too low to actually be useful > :-( > > Sadly, you'll find normal scanners all have the "too low resolution" > problem to handle fiche. Yep, as I suspected :( I get the impression that some scanning firms that say they can handle fiche are probably only running things through a normal scanner too... We do have what looks to be a reader with integral printer, which is an interesting beastie - but it all looks rather battered and rusty (maybe it sat outside at some point in its life). I don't hold out much hope of it working again... > Have you got much XXDP fiche? I'll have a look... hard to tell what there is at the moment. Certainly a lot of -11 stuff and peripherals, along with some -8 bits (which implies that DEC made an effort to go back and transfer some of their -8 paper docs to fiche at some point). Supposedly we've got everything that was ever released on fiche by DEC, but I doubt there's any record of exactly what that is anywhere... cheers Jules From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Apr 21 07:04:05 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:04:05 +0200 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001001c5466a$370ddbe0$2101a8c0@finans> From: "Jules Richardson" > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has absolutely no > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? I've seen some microfiche readers / microfilm readers which by means of optics could enlarge a single page to Legal or A4 format, possibly on a photocopier drum (or however that works). Then you could print a hardcopy. Mumble mumble headscratch : suppose we have 80 chrs (fontsize 10, fixed width) on an A4 line. Each characters would need (e.g.) 12 pixels. 25% for margin, overhead etc. So, 16 A4 pages would be (16 x 80 x 10 x 12 x 1.25) pixels = 192.000. 192.000 pixels on a fiche, about 12 (?) cm wide, would give a density of 16.000 pixels per cm = 40.640 pixels per inch. Hardly obtainable, I would say ... Nico From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 21 07:03:07 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 05:03:07 -0700 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has absolutely no > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? > > We've got a *lot* of DEC documentation arrived on fiche (208 pages per > fiche, estimated 25000 sheets) and scanning some of the more useful bits > would be nice. So far the cost from commercial companies has either been > too high or the quality has been far too low to actually be useful :-( My low-tech, low cost solution to this problem was to buy a fiche printer, print the fiche on paper, then scan that. The quality is sort of barely adequate. Unfortunately, it is also very much a "low volume" solution, just barely adequate for a manual or two. (My printer requires you to manually align each page.) 25000 sheets calls for something more sophisticated. Vince From James at jdfogg.com Thu Apr 21 07:14:05 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:14:05 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045909@sbs.jdfogg.com> > We do have what looks to be a reader with integral printer, > which is an interesting beastie - but it all looks rather > battered and rusty (maybe it sat outside at some point in its > life). I don't hold out much hope of it working again... These are incredibly common, most libraries will have them. The printing process is either mimeo (alcohol) or the diazo process used for blueprints (ammonia). I have only seen one that used a toner type photostat process. From James at jdfogg.com Thu Apr 21 07:21:51 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:21:51 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04590A@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has > absolutely no > > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? I used to work for the Terminal Data Corp. We manufactured fiche cameras, including the one that made the original DEC fiche. We also manufactured a fiche scanner that output via SCSI to a workstation or Dataproducts high speed laserprinter. There aren't many dedicated fiche scanning products made, but the TDC was one of the few. Massachusetts Institute of Technology - Library Services had a TDC fiche scanner in the 1990's (and a couple of TDC cameras). It was mostly used for reproducing all the microfiched research and thesis papers, but they did offer scanning services to the public. If anyone here has contacts at MIT, or wanted to contact them about scanning services, you might find that they still have the ability to scan fiche and *may* be affordable. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 08:33:09 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:33:09 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: <20050419174820.S659@localhost> Message-ID: <16999.43925.125000.453816@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> If things had worked out differently we might be using >> ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one >> package! Tony> I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which Tony> consisted of a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a Tony> single glass envelope. That contained 3 triodes and all the R's Tony> and C's. There were several variations of that, actually. The device you'r describing is the 3NF, a three-stage audio amplifier. There's also the 2HF, a two-stage RF amplifier. I have one of those... should get it going one of these days... See, for example, http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electricstuff/loewe.html paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 08:49:46 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:49:46 -0400 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes References: Message-ID: <16999.44922.476000.445783@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? William> RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV William> tuners and some test equipments. They are almost always William> triodes, and are really small - 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 William> inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half sized William> Nuvistors, but never sold them. I think acorn tubes are smaller. Those are UHF tubes -- I think they were used in 1940s or 1950s vintage equipment for oscillators or amplifiers up to a gigahertz or so. They look just like glass acorns, with stiff wires coming out the sides for connectors. The idea is to keep the wires very short, and also to allow them to be connected into resonant transmission line circuits where the pins are just part of the resonant line. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 21 08:52:01 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:52:01 -0500 Subject: HP find, plus some good DEC stuff too... and CDC.. and... References: <754448185@web.de> Message-ID: <001301c54679$4c338880$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Pierre wrote... > it would be of great help, if somebody could scan the documents of the CDC > drives. > I own four of these beasts and neither don't know to configure them nor to > repair them due to the lack of printsets. > And I'm surely not the only one out there. I have no 9715's, and probably never will. I will send any CDC manuals & such to Al to scan for bitsavers, and then he can send the originals to you - you can have them. Al's probably backed up scanning stuff and since you're the only one who expressed interest in them, I could just send all the CDC stuff (manuals & filler plate kit) directly to you. You can keep it - with the stipulation that at some point you get it to Al to scan for bitsavers. Regards, Jay West From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 21 08:57:54 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:57:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <04e801c5464b$7b20b600$7900a8c0@athlon1200> References: <04e801c5464b$7b20b600$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Dave Brown wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" > To: "Wai-Sun Chia" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:47 PM > Subject: Re: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes > > > snip--- > >>> - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? >> >> RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and some >> test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really small - >> 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half >> sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. > > Some mil gear (eg PRC-41) has very small ceramic tubes -not sure if they are > quite as small as the Nuvistor but they must be close- likewise some hearing > aid amp tubes were pertty damn small as well. > > DaveB, NZ > > The GE 7000 series ceramic tubes are probably smaller than Nuvistors. I used to have one here in my desk drawer, but being so small, naturally its lost now... (7077 for example) Peter Wallace From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 08:58:42 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:58:42 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16999.45458.285000.868514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has Jules> absolutely no hope of providing the resolution needed to scan Jules> microfiche? Jules> We've got a *lot* of DEC documentation arrived on fiche (208 Jules> pages per fiche, estimated 25000 sheets) and scanning some of Jules> the more useful bits would be nice. So far the cost from Jules> commercial companies has either been too high or the quality Jules> has been far too low to actually be useful :-( I would think "it depends". Some home scanners have optical resolution of 4800 dpi or better. That may be good enough. Beware of inflated resolution figures. A lot of scanners have very high "resolution" claims but those are not real, they are fake pixels made by interpolation. Look for "optical" resolution, that's the real number. Also, in many cases there will be two numbers, e.g., 1200 x 4800; that means you have rectangular pixels, 1200 per inch in the coarse direction. You'd want a scanner where the smaller of the two optical resolution figures is large enough. How large is large enough? For a paper scan, 200 dpi is about the lowest you'd want, 300 is good. So that makes 3300 pixels for an 11 inch high sheet. So measure the page images on your fiche. They are probably the analog of 11 by 17 pages, so you'd want enough resolution to give you about 3000 pixels across the height of a page image. You'll also need a scanner with a "transparency" or "slide" capability. That means a back-light, typically built into the scanner lid. Those aren't all that common, though they are becoming more common these days. paul From jpl15 at panix.com Thu Apr 21 09:09:14 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:09:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <16999.44922.476000.445783@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16999.44922.476000.445783@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > > I think acorn tubes are smaller. Those are UHF tubes -- I think they > were used in 1940s or 1950s vintage equipment for oscillators or Ummmm - no. A nuvistor could very nearly fit into the acorn's envelope. Nuvistors look like a largish metal pencil eraser - they're substatially smaller internally than an acorn tube, as well. And of course, as you mention, 30 years later in design. Cheers John (Who has hundreds of each type...) From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Apr 21 09:16:42 2005 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:16:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Vintage Computers in the news! Message-ID: <37173.127.0.0.1.1114093002.squirrel@www.vintage-computer.com> You know you've hit the big-time when: http://www.theonion.com/history/index.php?issue=4116 Enjoy! -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From James at jdfogg.com Thu Apr 21 09:38:16 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:38:16 -0400 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04590F@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I think acorn tubes are smaller. Those are UHF tubes -- I > think they > > were used in 1940s or 1950s vintage equipment for oscillators or > > Ummmm - no. A nuvistor could very nearly fit into the > acorn's envelope. > Nuvistors look like a largish metal pencil eraser - they're > substatially smaller internally than an acorn tube, as well. > And of course, as you mention, 30 years later in design. Not smaller, but more along the lines of classic (glass, pin sockets) tubes. Motorola WWII walkie-talkies used "pencil tubes". I've only seen them once, about the size of a small woman's pinkie finger. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 21 09:59:40 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 07:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <16999.45458.285000.868514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Apr 21, 2005 09:58:42 AM Message-ID: <200504211459.j3LExeCg005404@onyx.spiritone.com> > You'll also need a scanner with a "transparency" or "slide" > capability. That means a back-light, typically built into the scanner > lid. Those aren't all that common, though they are becoming more > common these days. Most of these seem to be for film strips, in fact this is the reason I've kept my 300dpi scanner (though getting a Mac setup to use it would be "interesting"). My new Scanner which is 1600dpi (IIRC) has transparancy, but only for 35mm slides and film strips. With my 300dpi I can can larger transparancies, in fact I bought it for scanning large glass slides containing 3D pairs. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Apr 21 10:06:58 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <1114084628.17042.17.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 21, 2005 11:57:08 AM Message-ID: <200504211506.j3LF6wC8005636@onyx.spiritone.com> > I'll have a look... hard to tell what there is at the moment. Certainly > a lot of -11 stuff and peripherals, along with some -8 bits (which > implies that DEC made an effort to go back and transfer some of their -8 > paper docs to fiche at some point). Supposedly we've got everything > that was ever released on fiche by DEC, but I doubt there's any record > of exactly what that is anywhere... Well, the complete "VAX Maintenence Library" takes one blue fiche box. I know you can find PDP-8, PDP10, PDP-11, VAX, and early Alpha hardware documentation on Fiche, as well as XXDP, VMS Source listings, and who knows what other software related fiche. I'm guessing there is a good chance that some of the other HW families made it to fiche as well. Keep in mind how long Microfiche has been around. The PDP-8 stuff was most likely put on fiche while the systems were current. Zane From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 21 10:07:59 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:07:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: Stan Barr "Re: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes" (Apr 21, 9:06) References: <200504210806.JAA15628@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <10504211607.ZM7637@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 9:06, Stan Barr wrote: > There were some very small wire ended ones made for proximity fuzes in > anti-aircraft shells. They are about the size of one of those small > neons. Someone in the USA has a stock of new ones and I wouldn't mind > getting a few to play with, but I've lost his address. > > Back in the '60s I had a little portable radio that used wire-ended > valves/tubes about half an inch diameter and an inch long. I had some of those. They were wire-wrapped onto printed circuit boards which were mounted in lightweight alloy chassis, all made at Ferranti, supposedly for or from the TSR2. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 21 10:19:33 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:19:33 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Sadly, you'll find normal scanners all have the "too low resolution" > problem to handle fiche. You'll also find a lot of variation in DEC > fiche quality. Depends on the scanner. Mine is optical 1200x2400 and cost $200, it handles fiche just fine. I just put a white sheet of paper behind it before I start scanning. Takes a LONG TIME to scan though; higher prices would have gotten me res *and* speed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 10:31:14 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:31:14 +0100 Subject: Altair MBL source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6405042108314d4754ad@mail.gmail.com> On 4/19/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 18 Apr 2005 rcini at optonline.net wrote: > > > I was able to get binary copies of some Altair paper tapes but none of > > them came with manuals. I believe that they can be loaded with the > > Altair Multi-Boot Loader, which I do not have. > > Did you pay a license fee to Bill Gates? If not, he might get very angry > with you and post a long diatribe to the CC list about how software > pirates are a hurting good software developers. > > "Nothing would please me more than being able to hire ten programmers and > deluge the hobby market with good software."* > > Hahahaha. > > * http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/gateswhine.html > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > Some idiot put that link on slashdot, the site has now gone down. Dan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 21 10:34:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:34:33 -0400 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes Message-ID: <0IFA00JHCZ8U8JW3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes > From: "Peter C. Wallace" > Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 06:57:54 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and some >>> test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really small - >>> 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half >>> sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. I have and still use these. Common numbers are 6CW4 and 6DS4, fine devices. >> >> Some mil gear (eg PRC-41) has very small ceramic tubes -not sure if they are >> quite as small as the Nuvistor but they must be close- likewise some hearing >> aid amp tubes were pertty damn small as well. I also have an assortment of T1A sized tubes (1.125" tall by .360 dia glass) most of them are 5899 and 5636 RF pentodes. I have 1AD4 and 5862 which are miniture tubes for battery operation and they are 1.25 tall by .375 wide and about .220 thick also made of glass. I've used all of the mentined tubes in various radio projects. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 10:35:42 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:35:42 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <16999.45458.285000.868514@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200504211459.j3LExeCg005404@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16999.51278.626000.412578@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: >> You'll also need a scanner with a "transparency" or "slide" >> capability. That means a back-light, typically built into the >> scanner lid. Those aren't all that common, though they are >> becoming more common these days. Zane> Most of these seem to be for film strips, in fact this is the Zane> reason I've kept my 300dpi scanner (though getting a Mac setup Zane> to use it would be "interesting"). My new Scanner which is Zane> 1600dpi (IIRC) has transparancy, but only for 35mm slides and Zane> film strips. With my 300dpi I can can larger transparancies, Zane> in fact I bought it for scanning large glass slides containing Zane> 3D pairs. I'm puzzled. Yes, there are scanners specifically for film strips, but I was talking about a flatbed page scanner with a "transparency adapter" which is simply a backlight built into its lid. Mine is a Umax Astra 4450, which is 1200 by 2400 dpi optical. I thought it was higher but my memory was faulty... It offers that resolution for any media, not just transparencies. The transparency backlight is about 4 by 5 inches, so it would serve for scanning medium format negatives, though it might be a bit small for fiche. (And 1200 dpi isn't enough, anyway.) Besides, Umax didn't offer Mac OS X support, I had to get it from a third party (which does work extremely well, though). Epson might be a possibility here. The 4180 Photo is a 4800 dpi scanner, with 2.25 inch transparency capability, for $200 according to the website. If that won't do, the 4990 Pro has an 8 by 10 transparency unit, plus more software bundled in, but the price goes up to $500. I haven't used any Epson products, btw... just looking at their website. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 10:42:06 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:42:06 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114084628.17042.17.camel@weka.localdomain> <200504211506.j3LF6wC8005636@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <16999.51662.468000.936187@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >> I'll have a look... hard to tell what there is at the >> moment. Certainly a lot of -11 stuff and peripherals, along with >> some -8 bits (which implies that DEC made an effort to go back and >> transfer some of their -8 paper docs to fiche at some point). >> Supposedly we've got everything that was ever released on fiche by >> DEC, ... Including all the listings? DEC would sell (for fairly significant money, though a whole lot less than machine readable source licenses) source listings for a lot of stuff. I remember wading through VMS listings, and PDP11 operating system listings also appeared that way. paul From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 21 10:43:16 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:43:16 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Depends on the scanner. Mine is optical 1200x2400 and cost $200, it > handles fiche just fine. I just put a white sheet of paper behind it > before I start scanning. CORRECTION: Filmstrip, not microfiche. My apologies. So what *is* enough? The last microfiche I read at my local library was 12 pages by 16 pages on a 4"x6" film, so we have roughly (12/4)*(16/6)=8 pages per inch of film. 150 DPI is the absolute bare minimum for a readable page, so a scanner would need a minimum resolution of (150*8)=1200 DPI just to get something discernable. A better bet is 2400 DPI for easily readable text, and 4800 DPI if you want to be able to make out line drawings. So it *is* possible with a consumer scanner of 2400 DPI optical or greater -- just make sure, as someone else earlier already wrote, that it is a true 2400, and not 1200x4800 (ie rectangular pixels). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 10:49:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:49:50 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504211506.j3LF6wC8005636@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200504211506.j3LF6wC8005636@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1114098590.17061.47.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 08:06 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I'll have a look... hard to tell what there is at the moment. Certainly > > a lot of -11 stuff and peripherals, along with some -8 bits (which > > implies that DEC made an effort to go back and transfer some of their -8 > > paper docs to fiche at some point). Supposedly we've got everything > > that was ever released on fiche by DEC, but I doubt there's any record > > of exactly what that is anywhere... > > Well, the complete "VAX Maintenence Library" takes one blue fiche box. I > know you can find PDP-8, PDP10, PDP-11, VAX, and early Alpha hardware > documentation on Fiche, as well as XXDP, VMS Source listings, and who knows > what other software related fiche. I'm guessing there is a good chance that > some of the other HW families made it to fiche as well. aha... we have either 11 or 13 boxes going from memory, can't remember which now. Not sure if it's all unique yet or whether there are duplicates in there... (plus I don't know if they're official DEC boxes or not of course - can't remember if they had a DEC logo on or not) How much is already up on the likes of bitsavers / indexed through MANX I don't know... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 11:11:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:11:09 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <1114099869.17061.53.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 10:43 -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Depends on the scanner. Mine is optical 1200x2400 and cost $200, it > > handles fiche just fine. I just put a white sheet of paper behind it > > before I start scanning. > > CORRECTION: Filmstrip, not microfiche. My apologies. > > So what *is* enough? The last microfiche I read at my local library was 12 > pages by 16 pages on a 4"x6" film I think these DEC ones are 13 x 16 pages per fiche. I was assuming they were A4 pages, but maybe they're one of the US formats (would make more sense for DEC I suppose). Doing some scribbling I think I came up with a 1200dpi scan being equivalent to about 30-40dpi equivalent against a real-life A4 page - given that I normally scan A4 sheets at 300dpi that'd require a scanner capable of something around 9600dpi. Maybe my calculations were off though :) From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 21 11:26:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:26:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045909@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, James Fogg wrote: > > We do have what looks to be a reader with integral printer, > > which is an interesting beastie - but it all looks rather > > battered and rusty (maybe it sat outside at some point in its > > life). I don't hold out much hope of it working again... > > These are incredibly common, most libraries will have them. The printing > process is either mimeo (alcohol) or the diazo process used for > blueprints (ammonia). I have only seen one that used a toner type > photostat process. I've got a nice laser printing fiche reader. I've never tested it though. These can be found (but not easily) on the second-hand market fairly cheap. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 11:29:16 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this crap, aka vacuum state In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050421092440.H1279@localhost> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > Integrating the functions, like in the Loewe tubes, never caught on. In > the US, a few directly coupled triodes were produced (6N6G being the most > common), and some of the eye tubes had a built in triode as a driver, but > for the most part, each function was pinned out individually. The most > advanced integrated tube was probably the VT-158 Zahl tube - a 600 MHz > pulse oscillator in a bulb. It was a dead end. The compactron type tubes designed specifically for TV sets were as close as successful "integration" got, combining common adjacent stage active devices into one envelope, but it was a commercial tuning of course, nothing particularly innovative (other than the inexpensive (sic) Compactron package). It's not that new either, dual-diode/triodes (FM det plus first audio) are old hat. In hindsight, it seems pretty obvious why "high density" never caught on -- cathodes and filaments die, tubes were expensive. Packaging tubes is expensive. From aek at spies.com Thu Apr 21 11:29:47 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:29:47 -0700 Subject: Microfiche Scanning Message-ID: <8a87fa6e5c5a2e31b6f08c5e48f09225@spies.com> here we go again... Late last year, I bought a used Mekel 560 (around a $50,000 unit new) I have several thousand sheets of DEC fiche to do as well. Unfortunately, it only handles one sheet at a time, came with no documentation and with everything else going on with my life, I've not spent much time with it since I bought it. It is something I need to get set up soon, though, since there is some material that I need to get done soon. From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 11:31:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050421093014.H1279@localhost> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: >> - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > > RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and some > test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really small - > 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half > sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. Listers' favorite 'scopes, the Tek 5xx series, often have them in the vertical plugins. From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 11:39:09 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> >> If things had worked out differently we might be using >> ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one >> package! Of course, everyone realizes when I made that little quip, I was making a tongue-in-cheek joke about foolish ideas and obvious dead-ends... > In the '60s I saw a rocket control computer that was used in a high > acceleration missile that was IIRC about 30 cm cubed. It was made up of > layers of ceramic approximately 3-5 mm thick each containing around 50-100 > "tubes" separated by a thin 2-3 mm layer of ceramic insulation. Each "tube" > consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary grids (perforated plates), > and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity. Everything was > interconnected by metalization on the insulating layer. The necessary > resistors/capacitors were placed in cavities between the "tubes". > > What made this extremely interesting was that all circuitry was differential > to exclude the common mode voltages that were generated by the compression of > the ceramic block during launch. At that time, solid state devices > self-destructed during the acceleration phase. I imagine that any "personal" > computer made with that technology would self-destruct any savings one had... ... But this is fairly amazing, and I've never heard of it before. Why Am for cathodes?! Alpha particles instead of electrons? (I'm kidding there.)Or did they somehow come up with a nasty, toxic an short-lived way to produce clouds of electrons? Or another way to lob our toxic waste at our 'enemies' ala 'depleted' (sic) uranium?! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 21 11:42:22 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:42:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: Jim Leonard "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 10:43) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 10:43, Jim Leonard wrote: So what *is* enough? The last microfiche I read at my local library was 12 > pages by 16 pages on a 4"x6" film, so we have roughly (12/4)*(16/6)=8 pages per > inch of film. 150 DPI is the absolute bare minimum for a readable page, so a > scanner would need a minimum resolution of (150*8)=1200 DPI just to get > something discernable. Um, your maths is off. Assuming 150 dpi is the minimum acceptable for well-printed text (and some DEC fiche is anything but), and a page is 8" wide, you need 1200 dots per page width. A page width on the fiche you describe is 6/16 inches, so you need 16/6 * 1200 dots per inch, which is 3192 dpi. Another way to look at it is if an 8"-wide page is 6/16" or 3/8" on the fiche, it's .04687 of original size, or about 21 times reduced. So 150 dpi becomes 3200 dpi. The equivalent resolution to get 600 dpi on the original page would be 12800 dpi. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 11:42:14 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504211459.j3LExeCg005404@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200504211459.j3LExeCg005404@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20050421094133.O1279@localhost> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject: Re: Microfiche scanning But fiche is substantially more than 300 dpi equiv. resolution! From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 21 12:09:29 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:09:29 -0400 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> Message-ID: <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans getting hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they found? Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP proof. EMP as in nuke-you-lar bomb (some important guy pronounces it like that! bizzare..) Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be radiation tolerant, would they? After all, isn't that how Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes work? Any mil-space-design spooks out there worked with rad-hard technology? I've read 4000 cmos is the wrong thing use for your home-made nuke countdown unit, but that RCA1802s fared better in early OSCAR and other satellites... h "Tom Jennings" wrote > > In the '60s I saw a rocket control computer that was used in a high > > acceleration missile that was IIRC about 30 cm cubed. It was made up of > > layers of ceramic approximately 3-5 mm thick each containing around 50-100 > > "tubes" separated by a thin 2-3 mm layer of ceramic insulation. Each "tube" > > consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary grids (perforated plates), > > and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity. Everything was > > interconnected by metalization on the insulating layer. The necessary > > resistors/capacitors were placed in cavities between the "tubes". From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 21 12:30:23 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:30:23 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Heinz Wolter" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:09 PM > wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans getting > hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they > found? > Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP > proof. > EMP as in nuke-you-lar bomb (some important guy pronounces it like that! > bizzare..) > > Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be radiation > tolerant, > would they? After all, isn't that how Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes > work? > Any mil-space-design spooks out there worked with rad-hard technology? > I've read 4000 cmos is the wrong thing use for your home-made nuke > countdown unit, > but that RCA1802s fared better in early OSCAR and other satellites... > > h The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. That's how they got to venus! There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 12:34:11 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:34:11 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <200504211459.j3LExeCg005404@onyx.spiritone.com> <20050421094133.O1279@localhost> Message-ID: <16999.58387.514000.688239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Jennings writes: Tom> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Subject: Re: Microfiche scanning Tom> But fiche is substantially more than 300 dpi equiv. resolution! Of course. And printed paper is, too -- more like several thousand for anything better than newsprint. However, 300 dpi is fine for scans meant for online reading, and (if clean) for OCR. By way of comparison, FAX is traditionally 200 dpi. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 12:38:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:38:55 -0400 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <16999.58671.655000.270317@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Heinz" == Heinz Wolter writes: Heinz> wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans Heinz> getting hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the Heinz> low-tech electronics they found? Purportedly - the Russians Heinz> were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP proof. ... Heinz> Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be Heinz> radiation tolerant, would they? After all, isn't that how Heinz> Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes work? G-M tubes are gas filled, and have very thin envelopes. The basic mechanism is that radiation ionizes the gas, and the electric field is large enough that an avalanche results, producing a current pulse. Vacuum tubes don't do that because there's no gas in side. Also, alpha particles won't go through the glass (it's much too thick). Betas might, but so what -- those are electrons. Gammas are photons, they won't do a thing unless they hit an electrode, in which case you might get some electrons, again no big deal. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 21 12:44:19 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:44:19 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> Message-ID: <4267E673.4090809@jetnet.ab.ca> Tom Jennings wrote: > > Why Am for cathodes?! Alpha particles instead of electrons? (I'm > kidding there.)Or did they somehow come up with a nasty, toxic an > short-lived way to produce clouds of electrons? Or another way to > lob our toxic waste at our 'enemies' ala 'depleted' (sic) > uranium?! > Be resonable -- it most likely was for a NUKE missile ... .00000000001 megatons of more explosive power -- better than the OTHER SIDE. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 21 12:53:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:53:49 -0600 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. > That's how they got to venus! > > There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid > state. > Don't forget with out CRT tubes we would not have TV or Computers as we know it. Also tubes still make nice 'home brew' stuff as compared to where transistors are going. PLUG --- replace you solid state amp with a DIY tube on -- /PLUG > Randy > www.s100-manuals.com Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs other than clone DEC equipment? From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Apr 21 13:20:24 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:20:24 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: Message-ID: <002201c5469e$c9ec2280$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Tony Duell" > > If things had worked out differently we might be using > > ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one > > package! > > I nthe 1920's, Lowe (in Germany) made a radio receiver which consisted of > a tuend ciruit, headphones, batteries, and a single glass envelope. That > contained 3 triodes and all the R's and C's. > > The idea did not catch on. The single glass device was expensive, and if > any part failed you ad to replace the whole thing. Other radios were much > cheaper to repair. > > A flip-flop valve would certainly be possible. > > -tony > The Loewe idea was a tax dodge, at the time, UK tax was levied on each valve. By placing the three devices in one envelope, then only one lot of tax was incurred, which made the device cheaper than three seperate valves, unfortunatly, reliability was only 1/3 of that of a single valve(I know I'm oversimplifying, but I've had a long day and can't be bothered with the maths.....), consequently, the set became more expensive to run than a set with three seperate valves. In terms of general valves, it was not unusual to find 4 seperate devices in one envelope at the end of the valve era, eg the EABC80, which is three diodes and a triode, used in the detector / 1st AF stage of VHF FM sets in the late 50's. ISTR that RCA made some impressive multi element valves for TV use, with 3 or 4 devices in one envelope, but they used a special (13 pin?) base - there are a couple of designs for AM radios that will drive a loud speaker, but only have one piece of glassware (I wish I could remember the RCA name for the devices...). Jim. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 21 11:46:56 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:46:56 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> <20050419215028.V910@localhost> <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> Message-ID: <4267D900.A7F4270B@msm.umr.edu> > > > Ok... I'll probably end up taking some photos so I can make sure I'm > doing the right thing. > I liked what you posted so far, post as many as you have time to! > > > At least my 6070 has a toggle switch inside, on the servo board, > > that disables the head servos; DISABLE, power the drive up switch > > to RUN and let it purge for an hour; this is recommended in the > > service docs. The platters will spin, brush cycle runs, air pumps, > > presumably flings off all the dust. > > > > > Appreciate the advice... I'll try to get into the drive by this > weekend, and run a test on it. the longer you can run this, not just an hour, the better that you can rely on having things die w/o the heads loaded, as tom has had happen. run it for 24 hrs. it should be no stretch to do that. If it is still spinning and functional at that point, then at least the main things that you want to have running will not have failed, and the heads will be safe. Jim From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 13:22:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:22:48 +0000 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> <4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:53 -0600, woodelf wrote: > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs > other than > clone DEC equipment? *somewhere* at Bletchley we have a book (circa late 60's is my guess) about Soviet computer technology. I'll see if I can lay my hands on it this weekend (I have a feeling it may be on loan to one of the other guys at the moment though) How much of what's described in there is of original design I don't know. Will see if I can find it anyway... cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 21 13:40:21 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:40:21 -0400 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> <4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <16999.62357.278000.427010@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf writes: woodelf> Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small woodelf> computer designs other than clone DEC equipment? I think maybe so. I have a brochure from "STIMTI" in Vilnius, describing their work starting in 1959. Neither my russian nor my lithuanian are any good, but I can make out some comments about design of magnetic disk systems. Possibly also computers back to the early 1970s if not sooner. Later on they did make a VAX clone, though you can't tell that from the writeup. paul From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Thu Apr 21 13:46:08 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:46:08 +0200 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie><012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop><4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> > > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs > > other than > > clone DEC equipment? > I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The Soviet Bloc's Unified system of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) predecessors, like the Minsk series. I can mail it to you, if you can use it Nico From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 21 13:48:42 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <51873.207.145.53.202.1114109322.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jules wrote: > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has absolutely no > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? Generally, yes. There may be some flatbeds that can do it. The common fiche reductions are 24x, 42x, and 48x. Suppose you want an effective scan resolution of 300 DPI. That means that you need a scanner *optical* resolution (not interpolated) of 7200 to 14400 DPI. If you're willing to put up with 200 DPI effective (which is somewhat marginal), you can get by with 4800 to 9600 DPI. Al bought a Mekel fiche scanner recently in order to scan his collection of DEC fiche. The scanner was very difficult to configure, and the automatic identification of page frames doesn't work too well, so it is a very tedious process. Eric From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Apr 21 13:45:06 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:45:06 +0100 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In message <4267E8AD.1080104 at jetnet.ab.ca> woodelf wrote: > Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs > other than > clone DEC equipment? Speaking of which... "VAX: When you care enough to steal the very best" :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Take care of the pennies and the Inland Revenue will take care of the rest. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 21 13:52:38 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 11:52:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <200504211852.LAA05614@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > >From: "Heinz Wolter" >Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:09 PM >> wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans getting >> hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they >> found? >> Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP >> proof. >> EMP as in nuke-you-lar bomb (some important guy pronounces it like that! >> bizzare..) >> >> Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be radiation >> tolerant, >> would they? After all, isn't that how Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes >> work? >> Any mil-space-design spooks out there worked with rad-hard technology? >> I've read 4000 cmos is the wrong thing use for your home-made nuke >> countdown unit, >> but that RCA1802s fared better in early OSCAR and other satellites... >> >> h > > >The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. That's >how they got to venus! > >There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state. > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com Hi There is a process for CMOS call RAD hardening. It is a process of exposing the CMOS to radiation for a period of time. It reduces the efficiency of the transistors but they don't degrade as fast ( comparatively ) once this is done. As far as solid state goes, silicon is a limiter. Other semiconducting materials can work at higher temperatures. Toyota has worked out a way to produce large quantities of defect free silicon-carbide. This can be used to make transistors that can be run at several hundred degrees C. This is of course interesting to them because they like to have high power transistors for electric cars. Another material that hasn't been used to much is diamond. This is one of the best material to make transistors from since it has such good thermal properties. There are still a lot of processing problem to work out for this to be of much use. They already have the ability to create diamond films. Dwight From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 21 14:14:06 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:14:06 -0600 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie><012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop><4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <4267FB7E.2050607@jetnet.ab.ca> Nico de Jong wrote: >I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The Soviet Bloc's Unified system >of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) predecessors, like >the Minsk series. >I can mail it to you, if you can use it > > > I'd borrow the copy for general reading, but with the way the Post Office has been losing stuff in the mail, I will deciline your offer. Thank you. >Nico > > From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Apr 21 14:31:43 2005 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:31:43 -0700 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <4267FB7E.2050607@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> <4267FB7E.2050607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200504211231.43594.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 21 April 2005 12:14, woodelf wrote: > Nico de Jong wrote: > >I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The Soviet Bloc's Unified > > system of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) > > predecessors, like the Minsk series. > >I can mail it to you, if you can use it > > I'd borrow the copy for general reading, but with the way the Post > Office has been losing > stuff in the mail, I will deciline your offer. Thank you. I have a PDF of this paper. Let me know if you want me to Email or upload it to you... Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 21 14:36:52 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:36:52 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:21:51 EDT." <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04590A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200504211936.j3LJaqhD008341@mwave.heeltoe.com> "James Fogg" wrote: > >If anyone here has contacts at MIT, or wanted to contact them about >scanning services, you might find that they still have the ability to >scan fiche and *may* be affordable. If no one else wants to, I'll sign up for this. I'd love the excuse to see the scanner :-) I've spoken to the nice ladies in the CSAIL reading room. I'll bet they can point me in the right direction. They seem to be very sympathetic to those of us into archiving. -brad From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Apr 21 14:47:20 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 05 19:47:20 GMT Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. That's > how they got to venus! FYI, those tubes that went to Venus were designed by my dad. MS From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 21 13:43:59 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:43:59 +0100 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:30:23 CDT." <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <200504211843.TAA24762@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Heinz Wolter said: > There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state. See http://stellardisplay.com/fullStory3.htm for example... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 15:11:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:11:43 +0000 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1114114303.17620.5.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 19:47 +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. That's > > how they got to venus! > > FYI, those tubes that went to Venus were designed by my dad. Wow, that's a rather cool claim to fame :) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 21 15:13:09 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:13:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <16999.58387.514000.688239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200504211459.j3LExeCg005404@onyx.spiritone.com> <20050421094133.O1279@localhost> <16999.58387.514000.688239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200504212018.QAA07784@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > By way of comparison, FAX is traditionally 200 dpi. Sort of. 204dpi horizontally. Vertically it's 98dpi if you use the coarse resolution, 196dpi if you use the fine. (No, I have no idea why the horizontal and vertical resolutions are so close but different. Someone here probably does, though. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 21 15:24:49 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:24:49 -0600 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <42680C11.4050001@jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: >FYI, those tubes that went to Venus were designed by my dad. > >MS > > Now does he want them back .... ??? Lets face all countries have their share of good and bad strengths however in the field of SPACE remember PRIDE was a big factor that worked both ways. I wonder what would have happened if the USA and USSR had worked together in space? Only today are we starting to get over the goverment... err miltiary control of air-space so people can get into space. From hachti at hachti.de Thu Apr 21 15:40:48 2005 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:40:48 +0200 Subject: Honeywell Series 16 software Message-ID: <42680FD0.60503@hachti.de> Hi folks, I have recently won an auction for a Honeywell Series 16 (DDP516, H316 etc.) BASIC interpreter manual. Does anyone have this Honeywell BASIC paper tape or a copy of it? BASIC would be a great interactive toy for the Honeywell. And of course I am always looking for Series 16 software - everything. All the original software I have for the machine can be downloaded at my H316 website http://h316.hachti.de. Best regards, Philipp :-) From cctech at randy482.com Thu Apr 21 15:45:35 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:45:35 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <42680C11.4050001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <004a01c546b3$1505f750$2f92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "woodelf" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 3:24 PM > wrote: > >>FYI, those tubes that went to Venus were designed by my dad. >> >>MS >> > Now does he want them back .... ??? > Lets face all countries have their share of good and bad strengths > however in the field of SPACE remember PRIDE was a big factor > that worked both ways. I wonder what would have happened if > the USA and USSR had worked together in space? > Only today are we starting to get over the goverment... err miltiary > control of air-space so people can get into space. It was competition that drove the space race. If you look at the simple fact that in the 60's we went to the moon and now we struggle to just get into high orbit around earth (250,000 miles lower as I remember). In the USA we set up two separate space agencies, one was in the US Air Force the other a civilian agency (NASA). Both agencies are still going, the military is the smarter agency still using rockets. NASA shot it's wad on the shuttle stating that it would be cheaper than rockets plus they could be quickly turned around and sent back up in short order. NASA lied. Today the cooperation is not helping to get more done it is just slowing down the degradation. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 15:48:10 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <09f9f81ea75ff11e186c67fc9ecaf99f@mac.com> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> <20050419215028.V910@localhost> <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> <09f9f81ea75ff11e186c67fc9ecaf99f@mac.com> Message-ID: <20050421134234.R1279@localhost> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > Wow, I tried pulling VERY hard... they haven't been removed in years, I wouid > imagine. I think I'll have better luck trying to get the side panels off > first. In fact, I cracked the plastic on one connector that was on a panel > over an empty area... where the plastic that connects to the rack forms a > "handle" for you to pull on in order to remove them. The plastic panels (top, bottom) hare ordinary sheet-metal screws, in from the back. To get the sides off, you must lift from the bottom. They're heavy. There's a "J" shaped hook bolted to the rack the sides sit on. THere's probably s screw or two, on the rear inside rail, through the rack into the side panel, so that the side panel doesn't fall off when you turn the rack upside down. If you were to do such a thing. I don't recommend it. There may be a screw through the frame rail in the front too, visible only after you pull off the front panels. There also may be other mounting styles, but yours look like mine. I don't know what to suggest about the stuck front panels. Peek from the rear with a bright light and make sure you see a stud on the framerail, two? per panel per side. It'll be a #10 screw thread with keps nut (nut with captive external start lock washer). Something like that. Taking off the side panels probably won't help get the fronts off, but you will get to examine dust bunnies from the 1980's, lost pencils, missing rack screws, etc. From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 15:51:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050421134948.L1279@localhost> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > My low-tech, low cost solution to this problem was to buy a fiche printer, > print the fiche on paper, then scan that. The quality is sort of barely > adequate. > > Unfortunately, it is also very much a "low volume" solution, just barely > adequate for a manual or two. (My printer requires you to manually align > each page.) 25000 sheets calls for something more sophisticated. Maybe get a little more systematic? Is there any rhyme or reason to the fiche, eg. the first images are title/doc ID/table-of-contents pages? If so, tediously capture those, then you'll know what's worth bothering with and what's not. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 21 15:59:43 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <42680C11.4050001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > that worked both ways. I wonder what would have happened if > the USA and USSR had worked together in space? We probably would not have made the accomplishments that we did. Competition, especially between mortal enemies, is a very motivating factor. > Only today are we starting to get over the goverment... err miltiary > control of air-space so people can get into space. At least until the US declares ownership of space. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 21 16:07:26 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:07:26 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <006401c546b6$229f3ae0$2f92d6d1@randylaptop> From: "Michael Sokolov" Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 2:47 PM > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > >> The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. That's >> how they got to venus! > > FYI, those tubes that went to Venus were designed by my dad. > > MS I don't remember all the details but I read that while NASA always tried to solve problems with $ and technology. The Russians used something better: thought. The biggest problems were heat and pressure. Solid state devices shut down when heated. The spacecraft was open on the flight to Venus and sealed up before landing. This kept the insides under vacuum which slowed down heat transference. Smart, very smart. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 21 16:20:26 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:20:26 -0600 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <004a01c546b3$1505f750$2f92d6d1@randylaptop> References: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <42680C11.4050001@jetnet.ab.ca> <004a01c546b3$1505f750$2f92d6d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <4268191A.50601@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > It was competition that drove the space race. If you look at the > simple fact that in the 60's we went to the moon and now we struggle > to just get into high orbit around earth (250,000 miles lower as I > remember). > Low earth orbit is ample. With out GERMAN leader ship the USA would never have got any kind of space program. The only real new real techology that the US developed was in the last 5? years was with the winner of the X-PRIZE. > In the USA we set up two separate space agencies, one was in the US > Air Force the other a civilian agency (NASA). Both agencies are still > going, the military is the smarter agency still using rockets. NASA > shot it's wad on the shuttle stating that it would be cheaper than > rockets plus they could be quickly turned around and sent back up in > short order. NASA lied. > I read some where that the shuttle was re-designed for miltary payload in to secret orbits and that messed the design totaly. The solid state booster was also a dumb idea. In hind sight I think a small but reliable payload would have been a better option -- about 100 Kg into a fixed orbit with a 2nd stage unmanned craft and a 1st stage aircraft booster to get out the atmophere. > Today the cooperation is not helping to get more done it is just > slowing down the degradation. BIG ideas is the problem, not a steady space program with simple goals. Now search for "deep cold" on the web for hidden history of the space program. ALSO the anime "Royal Space Force: the Wings of Honneamis" is a good watch. > Randy I think the problem with general space acess is much like computer history... only if we get a lucky break can we have it. That is not to say the USA/USSR have not done great things in space but they have done so with feedback from the public, and that has limited the goals they could reach. From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 21 16:37:44 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 14:37:44 -0700 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050421134948.L1279@localhost> Message-ID: From: "Tom Jennings" > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > > Unfortunately, it is also very much a "low volume" solution, just barely > > adequate for a manual or two. (My printer requires you to manually align > > each page.) 25000 sheets calls for something more sophisticated. > > Maybe get a little more systematic? Is there any rhyme or reason > to the fiche, eg. the first images are title/doc > ID/table-of-contents pages? If so, tediously capture those, then > you'll know what's worth bothering with and what's not. The fiche have human readable text at the top that identifies the fiche and what is on it (though not down to the table of contents). The identifying stripes at the top can easily be scanned at normal scanner resolutions (if desired). I suppose a list of what fiche are there would be an interesting starting point for eliminating duplicated effort and possibly for prioritizing the work. Vince From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 21 16:50:31 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:50:31 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> Pete Turnbull wrote: > Um, your maths is off. Assuming 150 dpi is the minimum acceptable for > well-printed text (and some DEC fiche is anything but), and a page is > 8" wide, you need 1200 dots per page width. A page width on the fiche > you describe is 6/16 inches, so you need 16/6 * 1200 dots per inch, > which is 3192 dpi. My apologies. Still, 4800 optical scanners are $600 or less, so I still consider it possible. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 17:07:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:07:18 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <027101c546ba$5ad07740$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050421134948.L1279@localhost> <027101c546ba$5ad07740$6700a8c0@vrshome.msn.com> Message-ID: <1114121238.18108.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 14:37 -0700, vrs wrote: > I suppose a list of what fiche are there would be an interesting starting > point for eliminating duplicated effort and possibly for prioritizing the > work. Good plan. I'll try and remember to bring all of ours home with me at the weekend, then I can at least make some sort of list. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 21 17:14:28 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:14:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: Jim Leonard "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 16:50) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 16:50, Jim Leonard wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Um, your maths is off. Assuming 150 dpi is the minimum acceptable for > > well-printed text (and some DEC fiche is anything but), and a page is > > 8" wide, you need 1200 dots per page width. A page width on the fiche > > you describe is 6/16 inches, so you need 16/6 * 1200 dots per inch, > > which is 3192 dpi. > > My apologies. Still, 4800 optical scanners are $600 or less, so I still > consider it possible. I won't argue with that. Another thing that occurs to me is that one could presumably build something like a fiche viewer over the scanner glass; somthing to hold the fiche against a lens and project a magnified image onto the scanner glass. I assume that, in essence, is how Al's big fiche scanner works. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Apr 21 17:18:51 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 05 22:18:51 GMT Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <0504212218.AA11705@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Speaking of which... > > > "VAX: When you care enough to steal the very best" :) I have finally looked at that page with a graphical browser (no, not my own of course, at a puter lab in school) and it's invalid Russian, obviously written by someone who did not know the language and was merely "translating" from English by looking up English words in a dictionary, without any clue as to choosing the correct meaning out of the many possible, and then stringing those word "translations" together as they go in English without regard for Russian grammar rules. And one of the Russian words used there is not a valid Russian word at all. MS From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Apr 21 17:20:32 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:20:32 -0600 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <42682730.10809@jetnet.ab.ca> Pete Turnbull wrote: >I won't argue with that. Another thing that occurs to me is that one >could presumably build something like a fiche viewer over the scanner >glass; somthing to hold the fiche against a lens and project a >magnified image onto the scanner glass. I assume that, in essence, is >how Al's big fiche scanner works. > > I think that has a 50% chance of working as you would have to remove the scanning light from the scanner. Also how long does it take to scan ... low cost scanners are slow. Too bad you can't transfer the fitch to film and use a film scanner. PS. They plan someday to have human DNA recorded ... just how the heck will you archive that? From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 21 17:30:22 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <0504212218.AA11705@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504212218.AA11705@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <40975.207.145.53.202.1114122622.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Michael wrote: > I have finally looked at that page with a graphical browser (no, not my > own of course, at a puter lab in school) and it's invalid Russian, > obviously written by someone who did not know the language And your point is? It was done by chip designers, not translators or linguists. Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 21 17:45:37 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <200504212245.PAA05703@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov at ivan.harhan.org > >Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Speaking of which... >> >> >> "VAX: When you care enough to steal the very best" :) > >I have finally looked at that page with a graphical browser (no, not my >own of course, at a puter lab in school) and it's invalid Russian, obviously >written by someone who did not know the language and was merely "translating" >from English by looking up English words in a dictionary, without any clue >as to choosing the correct meaning out of the many possible, and then >stringing those word "translations" together as they go in English without >regard for Russian grammar rules. And one of the Russian words used there >is not a valid Russian word at all. > >MS > Hi It should be fun running it back through a translator to English. I often look at Italian post on Olivetti M20's. The Italian word for "files" ( used many times in most post ) gets translated to "rows". It took me a long time to figure out how this resulted. Then I realized, it is confused with how solders are positioned on a parade field ( rank and file ) with what we refer to as a file. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 21 17:50:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 15:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <42682730.10809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > PS. They plan someday to have human DNA recorded ... just how the heck > will you archive Make more humans? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 21 18:05:07 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <200504212305.QAA05717@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > >> PS. They plan someday to have human DNA recorded ... just how the heck >> will you archive > >Make more humans? > Hi It will most likely be recorded as the difference between that person and a reference person. Most likely the one used for the genome project. The differences are a lot smaller than the parts that are the same. Dwight From kapteynr at cboe.com Thu Apr 21 18:07:47 2005 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Kapteyn, Rob) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:07:47 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > I don't remember all the details but I read that while NASA always tried to > solve problems with $ and technology. > > The Russians used something better: thought. The biggest problems were > heat and pressure. Solid state devices shut down when heated. The > spacecraft was open on the flight to Venus and sealed up before landing. > This kept the insides under vacuum which slowed down heat transference. > > Smart, very smart. Reminds me of joke I was told when I visited my relatives in Canada: "One of the first big problems of manned space flight was that ball-point pens would not work reliably in zero gravity. NASA started a huge research project and after more than a year the 'space pen' was developed. This was a ball point pen that could write upside down and in zero gravity. (BTW: These pens were sold to the public and widely advertised when I was a kid) The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 18:18:14 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:18:14 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114125494.18278.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 15:50 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > PS. They plan someday to have human DNA recorded ... just how the heck > > will you archive > > Make more humans? Bloody hell, you beat me to it, grr! :-) From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 21 18:28:04 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:28:04 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> At 05:14 PM 4/21/2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: >I won't argue with that. Another thing that occurs to me is that one >could presumably build something like a fiche viewer over the scanner >glass; somthing to hold the fiche against a lens and project a >magnified image onto the scanner glass. I assume that, in essence, is >how Al's big fiche scanner works. What, no one here has ever tried to bolt a scanner to the frosted glass face of an ordinary fiche viewer? You'd want to trick it into not using its own lamp, but that's been done before with the guy who turned a scanner into a high-res camera. - John From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Apr 21 18:39:36 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 05 23:39:36 GMT Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal Message-ID: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, In my search for a good X terminal I have played some more with the available options. I have looked at my hardware options (VS3100 or VXT 2000 hardware), examined already-existing software options (EWS, VXT and VXT EX), and considered constructing my own X terminal software from the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus kernel and MIT X11R4 or X11R5 X server. Ultimately I was not satisfied with any of these options as a true solution that would make me happy, any of those would be a temporary kludge at best, so I have decided to take the radical approach: I'm going to design and build my own X terminal, and I mean hardware. I'll use PowerPC for the CPU and Linux for the OS. The CPU and OS choices are driven by experience: I have worked for a company that made PowerPC single-board computers and I know how to make one of those critters. There I developed a ROM monitor for PowerPC with the look and feel of a VAX console (>>> prompt, etc), and that's the ROM monitor I'm going to use. I also maintained Linux/PPC for those boards at that company, thus the experience deciding my OS choice. Also one of my friends has worked at the same company together with me as a hardware engineer, and I'll enlist his help on this package for the real "hard" hardware aspects. The X display consists of a screen, keyboard and mouse, and my choices for these three are as follows: an off-the-shelf PCI video chip with good XFree86 support for the screen, DEC LK201 for the keyboard, and many options for the mouse, including DEC mice, PC serial mice and USB mice. The server will be XFree86 modified to use the LK201 keyboard instead of a PC one. The use of LK201 keyboard is one design aspect I'm absolutely firm on. I'm very partial to this keyboard, and an X terminal that uses an LK201 is precisely what I want and what I cannot get from any modern offerings. The mouse is less critical to me: a mouse is a mouse. I do want a classic workstation mouse with 3 buttons and no wheel, but I don't really care if it's a DEC hockey puck or an old PC 3-button serial mouse. That's why I want to support many options for the mouse. (Are there any 3-button sans-wheel USB mice?) My tentative PowerPC CPU choice is MPC8250. It has a traditional 603e core with integrated memory controller, PCI interface (on which I'll hang the video and USB chips) and communication module (which I'll use for Ethernet and serial). I want to implement two independent Ethernet interfaces: one an RJ45 capable of 10 and 100 Mbps, the other a classic coaxial Ethernet interface with AUI and BNC ports. This way I can satisfy everyone as far as Ethernet goes. There will be 3 serial ports: one for LK201, one for DEC mice, and the remaining one a general-purpose EIA-232 port (DB25) that will be available for serial mice and for debug functions. The hardware will basically be a generic PowerPC diskless workstation with my StarMON ROM monitor (the one with the VAX console look and feel). StarMON will boot over Ethernet (a non-volatile setting will indicate which one) by broadcasting a BOOTP request and then TFTP'ing the boot image indicated in the BOOTP reply. The X terminal software that will be netbooted in this manner will be completely open source, but will be packaged up to function like an OSless X terminal, i.e., no writable file system, no user accounts, and no administration of or user exposure to the local OS on the terminal. The Linux kernel will be booted with a RAM disk read-only root filesystem which will also be fetched via TFTP at boot, and that filesystem will contain a special init that will run the X server and run the box like an OSless X terminal (XDMCP to a host specified in configuration on the BOOTP/TFTP host). Now there is only one thing remaining for which I seek advice from the great collective wisdom here: what should I use for the video chip? Being the recluse that I am, I know virtually nothing about modern video technology. Out of modern, readily-available PCI video chips, what do you think would be the most appropriate for a reasonable XFree86 server? As a ballpark I'm looking for 24 bits per pixel colour (I don't want to be limited by the colour map) and a resolution comparable to DEC's best offerings at tne height of the VAXstation era. It would have to be PCI; whether I go with the MPC8250 CPU or something else, it'll definitely have PCI but not AGP. I would appreciate any advice. MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Apr 21 18:42:32 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 05 23:42:32 GMT Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <0504212342.AA11974@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Kapteyn, Rob wrote: > The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) We had those space pens too. MS From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 21 18:58:24 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:58:24 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 21 Apr 05 22:18:51 GMT . <0504212218.AA11705@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050421235908.SJUA2032.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <0504212218.AA11705 at ivan.Harhan.ORG>, Michael Sokolov writes: >Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Speaking of which... >> >> >> "VAX: When you care enough to steal the very best" :) > >.. and it's invalid Russian, obviously >written by someone who did not know the language and was merely "translating" >from English by looking up English words in a dictionary, without any clue >as to choosing the correct meaning out of the many possible, and then >stringing those word "translations" together as they go in English without >regard for Russian grammar rules. That reminds me of a (possibly aprocryphal) story of an early experiment in machine translation. They had both English to Russian and Russian to English versions so decided to hook them back to back to see what happened. Starting with the English sentence: The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak. Out the other end came: The wine is good, but the meat is spoiled. I never did verify whether it really happened, but it makes a great anecdote when teaching an AI class. Brian L. Stuart From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 21 18:58:42 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:58:42 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114125494.18278.0.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00b901c546ce$0cbf5440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I was away today. Its amazing how many posts it took to get a reasonable estimate for the dpi ;} Two hacks I'd use if I had to do this today would be to use a slide projector and digital camera to photograph the projection. Same for a good quality fiche viewer. Hack 2 is to merge a low power microscope with a digital camera. A more reasonable approach would be too intern for Al.K. to get his scanner going. John A. From sieler at allegro.com Thu Apr 21 19:09:27 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:09:27 -0700 Subject: Amigo computer, Amigo disk protocol (was Re: Questions - Universe/68, HP-9134A, VT420 composite video) In-Reply-To: <48686.207.145.53.202.1113864693.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <3.0.6.32.20050418183147.00b6d390@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <4267DE47.26972.1F1164E8@localhost> Re: [HP 300] > > No it's not EXCLUSIVELY for the floppy drives but that's what it was > > desinged for. > > IIRC, the HP-300 didn't even *have* floppy drives. It had an internal > hard drive, and I think it was possible to add more externally. IIRC, the only HP 300 I ever used (at HP Cupertino, in 1979) had an 8" floppy drive (or two?) and no hard drive ... but it's been a long time :) -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 21 15:23:35 2005 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:23:35 +0000 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050422001819.YQBX8412.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@wizard> > Now there is only one thing remaining for which I seek advice from the great > collective wisdom here: what should I use for the video chip? Being the > recluse that I am, I know virtually nothing about modern video technology. > Out of modern, readily-available PCI video chips, what do you think would > be the most appropriate for a reasonable XFree86 server? As a ballpark > I'm looking for 24 bits per pixel colour (I don't want to be limited by > the colour map) and a resolution comparable to DEC's best offerings at > tne height of the VAXstation era. It would have to be PCI; whether I go > with the MPC8250 CPU or something else, it'll definitely have PCI but > not AGP. > > I would appreciate any advice. > > MS Matrox, still sells PCI bus video chipset and supported by linux/XFree86 keep in mind they forked so there is two kind of X. Also look into ATi. Cheers, Wizard From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 21 19:21:55 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:21:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 18:28) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> Message-ID: <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 18:28, John Foust wrote: > At 05:14 PM 4/21/2005, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > somthing to hold the fiche against a lens and project a > > magnified image onto the scanner glass. I assume that, in essence, > > is how Al's big fiche scanner works. > > What, no one here has ever tried to bolt a scanner to the > frosted glass face of an ordinary fiche viewer? You'd want to trick > it into not using its own lamp, but that's been done before with > the guy who turned a scanner into a high-res camera. You could just remove the fiche viewer screen. You don't need the screen to form the image, you only need the (virtual) image from the viewer's lens system to be focussed in the same plane as the scanner's optics. Actually, since the image is usually focussed on the back surface of the viewer screen, you'd want to remove it anyway. Similarly, you don't need to remove the scanner's lamp, except perhaps to eliminate stray reflections that would cause glare and reduce contrast. You would just disconnect its power if that were the requirement. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 21 19:21:31 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:21:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) "RE: tube technology and EMP" (Apr 21, 23:42) References: <0504212342.AA11974@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <10504220121.ZM8639@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 23:42, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Kapteyn, Rob wrote: > > > The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) > > We had those space pens too. You can still buy them, they're called Fisher Space Pens. I carry one all the time and can attest that they do indeed write upside-down or under water, but I've never had the oportunity to try one in zero gravity. They don't work nearly as well as ordinary pens, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 21 19:33:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:33:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Pete wrote: > Similarly, you don't need to remove the scanner's lamp, except perhaps > to eliminate stray reflections that would cause glare and reduce > contrast. You would just disconnect its power if that were the > requirement. Many scanners do a calibration on the lamp. Some will refuse to scan if they think the lamp isn't working correctly. Eric From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Apr 21 19:35:36 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 17:35:36 -0700 Subject: More Auction goodies--More questions Message-ID: <426846D8.8010803@theriver.com> Hi all, Picked up some more auction goodies this week! LSI ADM-5. I have the pdf manual for my 3a, but so far no information on the 5, anybody have a link to some online documentation! Works fine, very clean, bright cursor, no burn-in, no stuck keys and no "mold" lol 2 Sony OA-D31V-14 "Doubleheight " 3-1/4 SS 360K floppy drives. The doubleheight as these are roughly double the height of a regular 3-/14 floppies(but not "full height") I believe these may have been used in older HP's. Does naybody know if these are the ones that require a "special" floppy disks that have to be manually opened, as the drives do not have a mechanism for opening them??? An unopened Caldera Desktop version 1.0 (circa 1995!) LOL Cheers Tom From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 21 19:47:05 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:47:05 -0500 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <20050421093014.H1279@localhost> References: <20050421093014.H1279@localhost> Message-ID: <20050421194705.40271dc0.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > > > > RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and > > some test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really > > small - 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made > > a few half sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. > > Listers' favorite 'scopes, the Tek 5xx series, often have them in > the vertical plugins. > The first generation Tek 453, 'the version to avoid' has nuvistors in the front end. The 453 and 454 are the last-generation Tek scope to not include custom unobtanium semiconductors. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 21 19:52:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:52:27 +0000 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1114131147.18278.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 23:39 +0000, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > In my search for a good X terminal I have played some more with the > available options. Do you need audio at all? Just something that wasn't mentioned on your list. I'm not sure what the remote options are for audio when the app is actually on a server somewhere. Worth bearing in mind though. > My tentative PowerPC CPU choice is MPC8250. Does that need a cooling fan? > Now there is only one thing remaining for which I seek advice from the great > collective wisdom here: what should I use for the video chip? Being the > recluse that I am, I know virtually nothing about modern video technology. > Out of modern, readily-available PCI video chips, what do you think would > be the most appropriate for a reasonable XFree86 server? As a ballpark > I'm looking for 24 bits per pixel colour (I don't want to be limited by > the colour map) and a resolution comparable to DEC's best offerings at > tne height of the VAXstation era. It would have to be PCI; whether I go > with the MPC8250 CPU or something else, it'll definitely have PCI but > not AGP. Matrox PCI boards of a few years ago were always nice and supported some decent resolutions (plus IIRC they'd do sync-on-green too). I think they had 4MB on board and would take a 4MB daughterboard, so would do 1600x1200 res at 24bpp. The fact that most (all?) xterms seem to be 8 bitters always was a big stumbling block as otherwise it's really nice having a diskless client on your desk :) cheers J. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 20:01:07 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:01:07 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050420151219.02e79690@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: On 4/21/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/20/05, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > > Upon the date 22:44 19-04-05, Ethan Dicks said something like: > > >Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for > > >the 11/730-Z... > > > > Ohhhh, I would like a copy of any 11/730 docs you may find! > > OK... I'll do some digging this month. Boy, that was a short month... I happened to be next to one of my caches of DEC prints and lo and behold, the very 11/730-ZA print stack I was after. It is about 2 cm thick, and contains mechanical drawings of the cable tray, prints for the PSU, TU58, CPU, and memory, schematics and PAL equations included. It being B-sized drawings, I have no easy way to scan these... my hardware tops out at 8.5"x14". Suggestions? -ethan From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 21 20:03:31 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:03:31 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20050421200331.32c3cb21.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 10:43:16 -0500 Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: > > Depends on the scanner. Mine is optical 1200x2400 and cost $200, it > > > > handles fiche just fine. I just put a white sheet of paper behind > > it before I start scanning. > > CORRECTION: Filmstrip, not microfiche. My apologies. > > So what *is* enough? The last microfiche I read at my local library > was 12 pages by 16 pages on a 4"x6" film, so we have roughly > (12/4)*(16/6)=8 pages per inch of film. 150 DPI is the absolute bare > minimum for a readable page, so a scanner would need a minimum > resolution of (150*8)=1200 DPI just to get something discernable. A > better bet is 2400 DPI for easily readable text, and 4800 DPI if you > want to be able to make out line drawings. So it *is* possible with a > consumer scanner of 2400 DPI optical or greater -- just make sure, as > someone else earlier already wrote, that it is a true 2400, and not > 1200x4800 (ie rectangular pixels). I spent years of my youth working in a COM Shop (Computer Output to Microfilm). Basically mounting 1/2" tapes (mostly 1200 and 2400 bpi) and the camera would flash the data to a CRT inside the camera which would shoot the frames of fiche. Microfiche are shot, and the readers come in 3 common magnifications, 24x, 42x, and 48x. Most likely for high density fiche, you're looking at 42x. That means 42 times a conventional dpi, like, say 300 dpi, which would mean 12,600 dpi. It's NOT feasible to use a conventional page scanner. I suspect it's not even realistic to use a conventional slide scanner. (which is far better than a 'slide adapter' on a conventional page scanner. As an aside, another microfilm technolgy that is interesting is 'aperture cards.' Those are 'conventional' IBM Punched Cards, with a slotted window in them that you slide a piece of microfilm into. Generally used for archival document retrieval systems. The film would contain an engineering drawing, and part of the card has a field containing punched index information. Yet another technology that's mostly gone. From chenmel at earthlink.net Thu Apr 21 20:06:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:06:51 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04590A@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04590A@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20050421200651.0c83182b.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 08:21:51 -0400 "James Fogg" wrote: > > > Am I right in thinking that a home flatbed scanner has > > absolutely no > > > hope of providing the resolution needed to scan microfiche? > > I used to work for the Terminal Data Corp. We manufactured fiche > cameras, including the one that made the original DEC fiche. We also > manufactured a fiche scanner that output via SCSI to a workstation or > Dataproducts high speed laserprinter. There aren't many dedicated > fiche scanning products made, but the TDC was one of the few. > The firm I worked for from aprox. 1978-84 produced microfiche direct from data on computer tape. One of the types of camera we used actually contained a PDP-8 as it's embedded computer. I believe they were PDP-8/e's. Now I feel like a 'villan' for being one of the fiends who trapped all that data ON the fiche that everybody is trying to liberate it from now. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:10:52 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) Micropowder carbon in a zero G high oxygen electrical environment is a REALLY BAD idea. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:12:10 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:12:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <0504211947.AA11493@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: > FYI, those tubes that went to Venus were designed by my dad. Would you (or he) be willing to share the information with the Tube Collectors Association? Probably fascinating stuff. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:15:29 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:15:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: > There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state. Not anymore. Tubes have finally had their day. Listening to the radio from a station with a high power solid state transmitter, looking at a Sony flat screen while typing this...its over, folks. And I am NOT going to listen to the audio guy chime in. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:17:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:17:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: > wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans getting > hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they > found? > Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP > proof. Yes, I had some 1970s and 80s era nav equipment out of a MiG, and it was tubed. Neat stuff, but I sold it off. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 19:46:58 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:46:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <20050420215010.664077a2.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 20, 5 09:50:10 pm Message-ID: > My 'EPROM Eraser' uses a multi-element tube. It's actually an old quack > medical device from the 1950's. It's a big 'cold quartz' UV lamp, and > has a high voltage power supply in the base that uses one of the 'newer' > versions of a multifunction tube, the 117L7GT, which is a tube with a > 117 volt filament and (I believe) several different tube stages. Yes, the '117' at the start of that number means a 117V hater, which can go straight across US mains [1]. IIRC, the 117L7 is a combined power pentode (designed for audio output) and a half-wave rectifier. One of the valves I mentioend for cheap record players. [1] US valve numbers start with a string of digits which gives the heater volvtage (but watch out for '7' and '14' which are actually 6.3V and 12.6V o na Loctal baxe). UK Maxda valve codes look similar (they're of the form digit - letters - digits), and again the first set of digits normally gives the heater voltage _apart from 10, 20, 30_ which are series string heater valves for 100mA, 200mA and 300mA chains. Now why do I rememebr this stuff? > > Probably the _last_ versions of multifunction vacuum tubes were the > 'Compactron' tubes, specifically designed multi-element tubes used in > the 60's and 70's in sets sets designed to use with fewer tubes, i.e. > portable tube-type televisions. Compactrons were in an envelope similar > in shape to the common 7 and 9 pin mini tubes, but bigger with (if I > recall correctly) 12 pins. IIRC, The Tektronix 556 'scope is full of Compactrons. Fortunately my 555 isn't... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 19:52:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:52:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 20, 5 11:11:14 pm Message-ID: > Certainly, multifunction tubes were around - the first ones were the dual > diodes and rectifiers of the 1920s, then later twin triodes, extra diodes, > and yes, to the ultimate Compactrons. The most complex common multi-section valve in the UK (i.e. with the most sections), is the triple diode triode. It came with a variety of heater ratings -- the EABC80 (6.3V heater), UABC80 (100mA series string heater, by far the most common version) and the oddball PABC80 (300mA series string heater). It turned up in numerous AM/FM radios in the 1960s, where it was used for the AM detector (1 diode), FM detector (the other 2 diodes) and audio ampifier (triode). It has a B9A (9 pin miniature) base, so there must be some commoning of electrodes going on, probably the cathodes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 21 19:58:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:58:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 20, 5 11:47:08 pm Message-ID: > > - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > > RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and some > test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really small - > 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made a few half > sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. Somewhere I have a valved hearing aid. It's a flat case that fits in your pocket containing a 3-stage amplifier. The first 2 stages use DF64s -- rectangular cross-section valves perhaps 1/4" wide, 3/16" thick, and 1" long, the output stage is a DL64 which is perhaps 1+1/4" long. They have 5 lead-out wires coming from one end of the device, they could be soldered in, but here they're pluged into ting 5-pin sockets (I've seen similar xockets with 2 contacts not fitted used a transistor holders). There were also cylindrical valves, not much larger, on an 8-wire base. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:21:15 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:21:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT Don't read this crap, aka vacuum state In-Reply-To: <20050421092440.H1279@localhost> Message-ID: > The compactron type tubes designed specifically for TV sets were > as close as successful "integration" got, combining common > adjacent stage active devices into one envelope, Compactrons (at least none that I know of) are not integrated - each function is pinned out individually. Something like the 6N6G is true integration - one triode feeds another (they can not be used individually). > In hindsight, it seems pretty obvious why "high density" never > caught on -- cathodes and filaments die, tubes were expensive. > Packaging tubes is expensive. Compactrons were cheaper to make. Less labor, better yields. In TV production, Compactrons lowered costs due to less inventory and labor. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:23:13 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:23:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <0IFA00JHCZ8U8JW3@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: > I also have an assortment of T1A sized tubes (1.125" tall by .360 dia glass) > most of them are 5899 and 5636 RF pentodes. Those are not T1 bulbs - they are T3 bulbs - standard subminis. T1s are like NE-2 sized. Sylvania managed to cram two triodes into a T1, but they never left the lab. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:25:43 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:25:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04590F@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: > Not smaller, but more along the lines of classic (glass, pin sockets) > tubes. Motorola WWII walkie-talkies used "pencil tubes". I've only seen > them once, about the size of a small woman's pinkie finger. Actually, SCR-536 (and friends) use minis, not subminis. You may be thinking of the 1950s AN/PRC-6, the sucessor to the SCR-536. They indeed used subminis. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 20:27:29 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:27:29 -0400 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On 4/21/05, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > I would appreciate any advice. It is going to be a hard work. If it is me, I'd rather look at any readily available SBC (PC104 or whatever that does not need a fan, or even an severely downclocked PC), and add the keyboard support hardware and software for LK201, to meet your expectation. vax, 9000 > > MS > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 21 20:29:36 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:29:36 -0500 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase Message-ID: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Just wanted to say thanks for the people who have contributed knowledgebase articles to the classiccmp knowledgebase (www.classiccmp.org/kb) I do know that one person here is working on a really good article, should show up there soon! So, who wants to spearhead putting in a short knowledgebase article about hooking HP-IB devices, given the recent discussion :> Jay West From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Apr 21 20:30:22 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:30:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <200504210806.JAA15628@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: > > Sylvania also made some subsubminis - tubes in T1 bulbs, but they never > > sold either. A T1 bulb is 1.8 inch in diameter. (correction to my post) Make that 1/8 inch. > There were some very small wire ended ones made for proximity fuzes in > anti-aircraft shells. They are about the size of one of those small > neons. Someone in the USA has a stock of new ones and I wouldn't mind > getting a few to play with, but I've lost his address. I have some of those as well. Etco (remember them?) used to sell them for 10 cents each. I miss Etco. > There were also some vacuum tube ics being produced experimentally a > few years ago with a few hundred planar devices in one package. Every five years someone rediscovers this. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 21 20:34:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:34:13 -0500 Subject: NS chips sought Message-ID: <011c01c546db$645680e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had good luck asking here for the 82S129's, I have a good supply of them now at a reasonable price. Now I need the 82S141, and likewise can't find it at the places I had found the 82S129 :\ Anyone have an idea where to poke for this bipolar prom? Jay From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 21 20:44:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:44:10 -0400 Subject: New Space heater AKA: HP 9000/845 In-Reply-To: <42506946.BB161BD9@mindspring.com> References: <009301c542f9$6c96f6d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050421214410.00953a00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Steve, Where did you find this? I thought you were out on the middle of nowhere. Joe At 06:08 PM 4/3/05 -0400, you wrote: >Hey Guys, > >Just picked up my "new" 9000/845. I already have a working 842S but >wanted another system for spares. For those that don't know, this is a >washing machine size system that sucks up 220 AC like it's free! > >Also got two HP-7980 Autoloader tape drives that are in excellent >condition. The've got HP-IB interfaces and will work with my smaller >HP-UX systems. I love watching those drives load a tape. The way the >tape snakes it's way through the machine is very cool. > >The system did not include any disks. That's OK, I've got spare HPIB >disks laying around here (somewhere). Suprisingly, it did not have a >network card installed. All the other systems I've seen this size had >networking installed. > >I also got the original HP-UX 8.0 OS and SUBSYSTEM install tapes (9 >track). I think the subsystem tapes include FORTRAN 77, PASCAL, and >HP-C. Does anyone know if those software versions will run on HP-UX >10.20? Are they codeword protected? > >And I got a buttload of HP-UX 8.0 DOCs. Including a "HP-PA Architecture >Workbook". > >See yas, >SteveRob > From kmw at armory.com Thu Apr 21 21:05:03 2005 From: kmw at armory.com (Kurt Weber) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:05:03 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Kapteyn, Rob > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 6:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: tube technology and EMP > "One of the first big problems of manned space flight was that > ball-point pens > would not work reliably in zero gravity. > NASA started a huge research project and after more than a year > the 'space pen' > was developed. > This was a ball point pen that could write upside down and in > zero gravity. > > (BTW: These pens were sold to the public and widely advertised > when I was a kid) > > The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) > Except pencils are a really bad idea in space. They tend to release particles that can be breathed in or clog the air circulation/filtration systems, etc. Kurt Weber kmw at armory.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Apr 21 21:13:53 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 19:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <00b901c546ce$0cbf5440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <1114125494.18278.0.camel@weka.localdomain> <00b901c546ce$0cbf5440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <20050421191236.G66943@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, John Allain wrote: > Hack 2 is to merge a low power microscope with a digital > camera. Hmmmm Howzbout the toy microscope that intel sold? From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 21 21:35:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:35:38 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421191236.G66943@shell.lmi.net> References: <1114125494.18278.0.camel@weka.localdomain> <00b901c546ce$0cbf5440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20050421191236.G66943@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050421213427.04a18568@mail> At 09:13 PM 4/21/2005, Fred Cisin wrote: >Howzbout the toy microscope that intel sold? No blood from turnip. Most webcam-ish devices are less than 1000 pixels horizontal resolution. Anything involving NTSC is less still. - John From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 21 21:47:37 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:47:37 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114125494.18278.0.camel@weka.localdomain><00b901c546ce$0cbf5440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20050421191236.G66943@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <028601c546e5$a57e4c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Howzbout... Anybody with a removable lens camera could do this. A real microscope is desirable because of the good illuminator. The camera needs at least 4MP for 1 page at 200 dpi. John A. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Apr 21 21:55:16 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:55:16 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050421214945.04d246b0@mail> At 07:21 PM 4/21/2005, you wrote: >You could just remove the fiche viewer screen. You don't need the >screen to form the image, you only need the (virtual) image from the >viewer's lens system to be focussed in the same plane as the scanner's >optics. Actually, since the image is usually focussed on the back >surface of the viewer screen, you'd want to remove it anyway. Pointing the scanner at the plane in space that happens to be the viewing plane of the fiche viewer isn't going to result in an image. The scanner wants to see reflected light. Focusing the fiche projection at the scanner's sensor is a different sort of problem that would involve changing the scanner's optics, no? > Similarly, you don't need to remove the scanner's lamp, except perhaps >to eliminate stray reflections that would cause glare and reduce >contrast. You would just disconnect its power if that were the >requirement. In an ideal world, you'd want be able to use off-the-shelf scanner software. Driving the scanner's electronics on your own might allow you to bypass its checks for the lamp operation. - John From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Apr 21 22:07:04 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:07:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <028601c546e5$a57e4c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <1114125494.18278.0.camel@weka.localdomain><00b901c546ce$0cbf5440$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <20050421191236.G66943@shell.lmi.net> <028601c546e5$a57e4c60$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, John Allain wrote: >> Howzbout... > > Anybody with a removable lens camera could do this. > A real microscope is desirable because of the good illuminator. > The camera needs at least 4MP for 1 page at 200 dpi. > > John A. > Maybe more since a 4 MP camera only has 1.33 million pixel triples... (when the say 4MP them mean 1.33M of each color) If you could get at the raw data and extract the luminance info you could do better but I doubt this is possible in low end cameras.... Peter Wallace From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 22:26:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 20:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050421202538.S1279@localhost> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: >> I also have an assortment of T1A sized tubes (1.125" tall by .360 dia glass) >> most of them are 5899 and 5636 RF pentodes. > > Those are not T1 bulbs - they are T3 bulbs - standard subminis. T1s are > like NE-2 sized. Sylvania managed to cram two triodes into a T1, but they > never left the lab. Yup. A "T" is 1/8". So a T3 is 3/8". Etc. It gets silly, with T1-3/4 and all that. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Thu Apr 21 22:30:52 2005 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:30:52 -0500 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42686FEC.5030301@vzavenue.net> William Donzelli wrote: >>The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) >> >> > >Micropowder carbon in a zero G high oxygen electrical environment is a >REALLY BAD idea. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org > > > > Russian spacecraft don't use a pure oxygen low pressure life support system like NASA. They use nitrogen-oxygen blend at normal atmospheric pressure. -- www.blackcube.org The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 21 22:48:10 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:48:10 EDT Subject: Asimov images Message-ID: I have a CD with (I think) about everything from Asimov, plus Jagubox and a few other bits. If there aren't too many people and they asked nicely I might be persuaded to do copies, especially if they were willing to swap something, but that's not required - Scott Quinn From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 21 23:10:05 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:10:05 EDT Subject: Stuff in [Seattle] area Message-ID: <1e6.3a3005c9.2f99d31d@aol.com> I have a few things- any interest in the e-module housing for a Personal IRIS with GR1.5 graphics? also- an unracked HP (9000 series 800) G-50 server? pretty well loaded with RAM (over 500 MB), fits nicely under the desk- combination foot rest and warmer. Silicon Graphics Indigo2 IMPACT r4k/250 Solid SGI Indy R5k/150SC (Cache!!) (L@@k RARE only a few million made. . .) Computone ISA terminal board Wangtek ISA QIC-02 controller IBM P200 13w3 monitor with cable-works with Sun, SGI, RS/6k, PC, et al. If I could get a trade or some small offer to offset the $20 I invested in a failed attempt to get my PI running again (totally dead IP board, SMT FPU (mine wants a PGA :( sob, sob, etc.) the following is available, and working. IP28 board (R10k) for Indigo2 RE2 chip for GR1.x graphics (Personal IRIS) Indigo2 IMPACT 10k power supply (Dual Head) with Mardigras (Impact) backplane Personal IRIS skins and power supply Still looking for a Indigo R3k board or Personal IRIS IPx (X<=10)- or any board with a r3010 FPU at or above 20 MHz, board does not need to work., also a MC88k AViiON. With all of the talk about computer fairs in Calif, E.coast, does anyone know of any in WA? -Scott Quinn From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 21 23:12:23 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:12:23 EDT Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB Message-ID: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> Dont know if this is common knowledge, but I have a VS3100/76 that I threw a 2gig IBM drive in, tried to put VMS on and - it worked. All the stuff I saw seemed to indicate that 3100s didn't like sysdisks over 1 gig, but my /76 doesn't seem to mind. There it is if it's useful Scott Quinn From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 21 23:21:49 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:21:49 EDT Subject: IIcx/ci power supplies (missed a day so if this is answered, sorry) Message-ID: Great resource on this at http://www.shobaffum.com/iici/ the PS provides a 5v trickle to do what was done by the batteries on the II/IIx/IIfx (provide the power to the ADB keyboard power-on switch) From tomj at wps.com Thu Apr 21 23:41:46 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> Message-ID: <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be converted out of as quickly as possible? Fiche is great. Keep in clean and dry in a dark place and it will last for hundreds of years. It's not like it's an old floppy or something. Besides, I doubt there's many pages on fiche that don't already exist on paper. A series of afternoon perusals of the sheet titles will probably reveal that. Not everything need exist inside a computer. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 21 23:49:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:49:33 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB In-Reply-To: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> References: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Dont know if this is common knowledge, but I have a VS3100/76 that I threw a > 2gig IBM drive in, tried to put VMS on and - it worked. All the stuff I saw > seemed to indicate that 3100s didn't like sysdisks over 1 gig, but my /76 > doesn't seem to mind. IIRC the problem isn't _running_ VMS, it's when VMS crashes and uses old SCSI commands to talk to the disk (which only have enough bits to address blocks at 1GB or below), and your system disk gets scribbled on. I have not owned a 3100, so anyone who knows more feel free to chime in, but as I understand it, one should put a 1GB disk as DUA0: on a 3100, but one may put larger disks on as data disks, since VMS will not attempt to write to them when it's going down hard. -ethan From Saquinn624 at aol.com Thu Apr 21 23:54:06 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:54:06 EDT Subject: Russian comps, Toshiba drives Message-ID: <68.54381c69.2f99dd6e@aol.com> No one mentioned the BESM computer, not VAX or PDP. Someone's even trying to clone it- http://www.mailcom.com/besm6/ Any toshiba people out there? A number of my drives have a solid light on power up and don't respond to the open/close button. Toshiba's website has NOTHING about CD-ROMs doc-wise. Are Toshibas junk, did I get a bad batch, or is there something that can be done? (they have prop. ROMS, some SGI, some HP, and I'm becoming a bit worried about my IBM doing the same thing). -Scott Quinn From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 22 00:02:30 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 05 05:02:30 GMT Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal Message-ID: <0504220502.AA12706@ivan.Harhan.ORG> jpero at sympatico.ca wrote: > keep in mind they forked so there is two kind of X. Are you referring to X Consortium vs. XFree86, or some other fork I'm not aware of? MS From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 22 00:10:44 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 05 05:10:44 GMT Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal Message-ID: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jules Richardson wrote: > Do you need audio at all? No. Audio does not belong in X and I actually never even suspected that there was an audio extension for X until I heard people on this list complain that Classic X terminals don't have it. Spoiled kids! :-) > > My tentative PowerPC CPU choice is MPC8250. > > Does that need a cooling fan? I think it's a low-power CPU like other PowerPCs I have worked with, but I don't see any problem with putting a little fan in the box. My goal is not to have a fanless box on my desk, but an OSless one, or more precisely without a user-accessible OS that needs system administration. MS From mcesari at comcast.net Fri Apr 22 00:14:50 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:14:50 -0600 Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB In-Reply-To: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> References: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Apr 21, 2005, at 10:12 PM, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Dont know if this is common knowledge, but I have a VS3100/76 that I > threw a > 2gig IBM drive in, tried to put VMS on and - it worked. All the stuff > I saw > seemed to indicate that 3100s didn't like sysdisks over 1 gig, but my > /76 > doesn't seem to mind. > > There it is if it's useful > > Scott Quinn > This was at the time very annoying. We wanted to use what turned out to be affected systems as boot nodes for LAN-based clusters and were trying to use bigger disks. ("Damned disks work on Viking controllers on the 3200's! WTF is wrong with these 3100's ?!?!?") Funny now... :-) The actual problem was that "Early" MicroVAX 3100 and VaxStation 3100 boot ROMs use 6-byte SCSI READ and WRITE commands which limit access to 1.06GB. At some point VS3100-76's (and later) came fixed from the factory. I don't remember when MicroVAX 3100's were fixed. I *think* DEC released a fix for some models of MV3100's, but never for VS3100's. VS4000's never had this problem. To make life easier, a very unofficial fix was created and is still available here: ftp://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/ka420/ There's a README and the patches are in ka420-rom-patch_010.zip Mike From nico at FARUMDATA.DK Fri Apr 22 00:23:14 2005 From: nico at FARUMDATA.DK (Nico de Jong) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:23:14 +0200 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie><012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop><4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain><000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> <4267FB7E.2050607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <002e01c546fb$624c7280$2101a8c0@finans> From: "woodelf" > >I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The Soviet Bloc's Unified system > >of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) predecessors, like > >the Minsk series. > >I can mail it to you, if you can use it > I'd borrow the copy for general reading, but with the way the Post > Office has been losing > stuff in the mail, I will deciline your offer. Thank you. > Ah, insufficient information. What I meant to say, was that I have retyped the article, and scanned the figures. In otherwords, it is available via e-mail NIco From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 00:20:07 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:20:07 -0600 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <002e01c546fb$624c7280$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org><20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie><012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop><4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain><000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> <4267FB7E.2050607@jetnet.ab.ca> <002e01c546fb$624c7280$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <42688987.9020104@jetnet.ab.ca> Nico de Jong wrote: >Ah, insufficient information. >What I meant to say, was that I have retyped the article, and scanned the >figures. >In otherwords, it is available via e-mail > > > Thank you for the email. It was good reading. >NIco > > From spedraja at ono.com Fri Apr 22 00:27:30 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:27:30 +0200 Subject: VAX-11/730 References: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050420151219.02e79690@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <006201c546fc$06364510$1502a8c0@ACER> Al Kossow? I should try to do it, but one scanner perfect for this matter fly away from my scope some months ago. Of course, it would be great if you could do it. Cheers Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "Christian R. Fandt" ; Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 3:01 AM Subject: Re: VAX-11/730 > On 4/21/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 4/20/05, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > > > Upon the date 22:44 19-04-05, Ethan Dicks said something like: > > > >Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for > > > >the 11/730-Z... > > > > > > Ohhhh, I would like a copy of any 11/730 docs you may find! > > > > OK... I'll do some digging this month. > > Boy, that was a short month... I happened to be next to one of my > caches of DEC prints and lo and behold, the very 11/730-ZA print stack > I was after. It is about 2 cm thick, and contains mechanical drawings > of the cable tray, prints for the PSU, TU58, CPU, and memory, > schematics and PAL equations included. > > It being B-sized drawings, I have no easy way to scan these... my > hardware tops out at 8.5"x14". Suggestions? > > -ethan > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 00:35:36 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> Message-ID: <33127.64.169.63.74.1114148136.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Tom wrote: > Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like > it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be > converted out of as quickly as possible? > > Fiche is great. Keep in clean and dry in a dark place and it will > last for hundreds of years. [...] > Not everything need exist inside a computer. Because if Alice has fiche in a clean dry dark place, that doesn't necessarily help Bob. But if Alice's fiche is scanned and put on a web site, it may help everyone. > Besides, I doubt there's many pages on fiche that don't already > exist on paper. Presumably almost all of it did at one time, the exception being some diagnostic listings in later years that were directly to COM. But a lot of it was never distributed to customers (or field service) on paper. And a huge amount of the stuff that was available on paper is impossible to find on paper now. And even if it was on paper, it would *still* be more useful scanned than sitting on someone's shelf. When was the last time you saw the IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown) for a PDP-11T55? Or the wirelist for the KB11-D backplane? I've never seen either. The former was probably available on paper at one time, but I doubt that anyone has a paper copy now. The latter was never available on paper. Yet both should be in the PDP-11 fiche set. Eric From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 00:36:30 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:36:30 -0700 Subject: Stuff in [Seattle] area In-Reply-To: <1e6.3a3005c9.2f99d31d@aol.com> References: <1e6.3a3005c9.2f99d31d@aol.com> Message-ID: >With all of the talk about computer fairs in Calif, E.coast, does anyone know >of any in WA? I think Renton used to have one. At least I think that's where I stopped while headed to see family further North about 7 years ago. I think there is also a fairly large Ham festival held somewhere in WA, but I've never investigated that. Rumor has it you've got a pretty cool surplus store in your area (can't remember what they're called though). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 00:38:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Michael wrote: > No. Audio does not belong in X I think you're going to find a lot of people disagree with that. X is supposed to provide network transparency for the user interface, and audio is part of the user interface. It may well be the case that audio doesn't conveniently fit into the X protocol, but that's due to short-sightedness, not because it doesn't conceptually belong there. If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be handled by X as well. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 00:43:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:43:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504220502.AA12706@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504220502.AA12706@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <33166.64.169.63.74.1114148611.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Michael wrote: > Are you referring to X Consortium vs. XFree86, or some other fork I'm > not aware of? The XFree86 organization started changing their license a while back, in a manner that upset a lot of people. They didn't announce it or have any public discussion; the new license just crept in. People that were unhappy about that, and had been unhappy with the XFree86 organization for other reasons, created a new fork of the last release of XFree86 that was under the old license, and it is maintained under the auspices of "x.org". I'm not sure exactly what (if any) relationship there is between the current x.org and the original X Consortium, but it's my understanding that the latter has been defunct since not long after the release of "Broadway". I think it may have merged into the XFree86 organization. Most Linux distributions now use the x.org branch rather than XFree86. Debian is a notable counterexample, though it is expected that they will switch after they release Sarge. Eric From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 22 01:02:14 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:02:14 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> Message-ID: <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> Tom Jennings declared on Thursday 21 April 2005 11:41 pm: > Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like > it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be > converted out of as quickly as possible? Yeah, but there's at least two problems with it. One, it's really hard to make fiche available to other people without scanning or giving out the original, and loaning out fiche is potentially risky and a pain in the ass to track. Paper docs have similar problems, but it's easier to duplicate paper than microfiche, unless you can find a cheap microfiche -> paper duplicator. Second, it's much easier - for me at least - to flip through a PDF than it is to flip through microfiche. Right now, I don't have a fiche viewer at home (despite the DEC MDS fiche I now have) so I have to make a trip to the library to view it. It's much easier to print out a few pages of a PDF (or all of it) and bring it with me to look at, than it is to haul around a microfiche reader... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Apr 22 01:14:13 2005 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:14:13 +0200 (MEST) Subject: small valves Message-ID: <3830.1114150453@www55.gmx.net> >> Some mil gear (eg PRC-41) has very small ceramic tubes -not sure if >> they are quite as small as the Nuvistor but they must be close- >> likewise some hearing aid amp tubes were pertty damn small as well. And don't forget the first generation of R/C receivers intended for use in model airplanes. They needed something small, lightweight, battery-powered and inexpensive, so voila - miniaturized valves. I can't claim to have seen one "in the flesh" yet, but I have a hobbyist book on what they used to call "micro-electronics" in the mid-50s (ooh, printed circuit boards instead of solder lug strips!) which shows a device about the size of a packet of cigarettes with several such valves directly soldered onto a board with the wires coming out of them. Anybody here been R/C-ing back then? cheers -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de +++ NEU: GMX DSL_Flatrate! Schon ab 14,99 EUR/Monat! +++ GMX Garantie: Surfen ohne Tempo-Limit! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 22 01:25:44 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:25:44 -0500 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200504220125.44455.pat@computer-refuge.org> Michael Sokolov declared on Thursday 21 April 2005 06:39 pm: > Hello fellow ClassicCmp'ers, > > In my search for a good X terminal I have played some more with the > available options. I have looked at my hardware options (VS3100 or > VXT 2000 hardware), examined already-existing software options (EWS, > VXT and VXT EX), and considered constructing my own X terminal > software from the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus kernel and MIT X11R4 or X11R5 X > server. Ultimately I was not satisfied with any of these options as a > true solution that would make me happy, any of those would be a > temporary kludge at best, so I have decided to take the radical > approach: I'm suprised that you dont want to do this using a VS3100 (or 4000) and BSD of some sort. :) That being said, I can give some suggestions. > The X display consists of a screen, keyboard and mouse, and my choices > for these three are as follows: an off-the-shelf PCI video chip with > good XFree86 support for the screen, DEC LK201 for the keyboard, and > many options for the mouse, including DEC mice, PC serial mice and USB > mice. The server will be XFree86 modified to use the LK201 keyboard > instead of a PC one. Be aware that this shouldn't be all that difficult; Linux supports running an LK201/401 on a serial port via a device driver in late 2.4 and 2.6 kerneles. > (Are there any 3-button sans-wheel USB mice?) I'd skip USB all-together, and just use a serial or PS/2 interface mouse. > for Ethernet and serial). I want to implement two independent > Ethernet interfaces: one an RJ45 capable of 10 and 100 Mbps, the other > a classic coaxial Ethernet interface with AUI and BNC ports. This way There's no reason you can't run all that off a single ethernet controller; for example, on IBM RS/6000 SP's, they have a 10/100MBps RJ45 connector, as well as either a 10Base2 BNC or 10Base5 AUI connector run off the same interface. > Now there is only one thing remaining for which I seek advice from the > great collective wisdom here: what should I use for the video chip? I'd recommend an ATI Rage XL. They should be available cheaply, and are commonly used for onboard video on rackmount PC server motherboards, so they should be easy to find. As well, XFree has working/usable drivers for them. Given a few MB of ram, you should be able to do 24-bit color at at least 1600x1200. As another option, you could also do an ATI Rage 64, if you prefer to scrounge ICs off of discarded PCI video cards. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 22 02:09:29 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 05 07:09:29 GMT Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal Message-ID: <0504220709.AA12937@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm suprised that you dont want to do this using a VS3100 (or 4000) and > BSD of some sort. :) As I already wrote, I obviously considered that, in fact that was the very first thing I thought. The problem is that the best video I can hope to get this way is VS3100 GPX (1024x864, 60 Hz refresh, 8 planes). I have an SPX board (which is what VT1300 and VXT 2000 used), but it's completely undocumented, so there is no way for me to write an X server for it. (Even though SPX was specifically designed to run X!) The SPX board is not only specifically designed for X and therefore faster, but it has better video too: 1280x1024 at 66 Hz refresh. I feel extremely mad and outraged at DEC for withholding the documentation for the SPX board, I feel cheated that the board specifically optimised for X is out of reach of Free X server developers, leaving them to run on the earlier GPX board which is NOT optimised for X, and it feels counter-productive to me to invest a lot of effort into writing a Quasijarus-based X server for the GPX board which would do nothing but feed that anguish. And while we are on this subject, the GPX board is not actually documented either! But the IFCTF possesses a pirate copy of the Ultrix source which contains a kernel driver for it which provides an ioctl interface that emulates that of the QDSS driver to run the unchanged Xqdss server. The VS3100 GPX board is NOT compatible with QDSS at the register level, the emulation is in the Ultrix kernel sg driver. And to add insult to injury the GPX board has another misfeature. Apparently its video outputs are not just outputs, but also have some kind of reflection detectors, and its ROM self-test that executes on power-up can detect whether there is a monitor cable attached. However, the test is overzealous and chokes with a fatal error when my monitor is connected. Apparently it doesn't like something about it (Viewsonic P810), even though if I unplug the monitor during the self-test and plug it in later, the picture on the tube is beautiful. This problem does not happen with the SPX board. That one also apparently has reflection detectors and also reports an error, but it's nonfatal and does not stop autoboot. And even if by some miracle I got programming documentation for the SPX board and wrote a Quasijarus-based replacement for the EWS/VXT software, I would still never be able to go past 256 color map entries. I suppose the problem would be solved if I got full system programming documentation for the SPXgt 24-place 3D graphics board and for the VS4000 it goes into, but I won't hold my breath for that. That's why I decided to design and build my own hardware. Reverse-engineering undocumented hardware and closed source software feels like peeing against the wind. I would feel better creating a beautiful new Open Source Hardware design than digging in DEC's closed proprietary anti-freedom shit. > Be aware that this shouldn't be all that difficult; Linux supports > running an LK201/401 on a serial port via a device driver in late 2.4 > and 2.6 kerneles. It doesn't matter. The only code that will know about and talk to the LK201 will be the X server and StarMON ROM monitor. For the Linux kernel (and for the hardware) the LK201 port will be just a bog-standard serial port, Linux will have no idea what is connected to it. (Keyboard support is not needed in the Linux kernel because it'll be completely hidden from the user.) > I'd skip USB all-together, and just use a serial or PS/2 interface mouse. Why not offer it as an option if the extra design cost is negligible? It's just a USB chip on the PCI bus. There is no extra software development effort since USB mice are already supported by the Linux kernel and XFree86 server. > There's no reason you can't run all that off a single ethernet > controller; for example, on IBM RS/6000 SP's, they have a 10/100MBps > RJ45 connector, as well as either a 10Base2 BNC or 10Base5 AUI connector > run off the same interface. Yeah, I realise it's possible, but separate Ethernets feel a little cleaner to me and if I use the MPC8250 there is no extra cost for it since there are enough resources in the chip for two Ethernet instances. Thanks to everyone for the video chip suggestions! MS From technobug at comcast.net Fri Apr 22 02:12:37 2005 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 00:12:37 -0700 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200504211709.j3LH8wQB078248@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504211709.j3LH8wQB078248@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9ade242751a7ef1d27e66e82c447cace@comcast.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:39:09 -0700 (PDT) Tom Jennings commented: >> Each "tube" >> consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary grids (perforated >> plates), >> and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity. > .... But this is fairly amazing, and I've never heard of it before. > > Why Am for cathodes?! Alpha particles instead of electrons? (I'm > kidding there.)Or did they somehow come up with a nasty, toxic an > short-lived way to produce clouds of electrons? Or another way to > lob our toxic waste at our 'enemies' ala 'depleted' (sic) > uranium?! Because of a head-fart. I've been disecting smoke detectors in the recent past and I'm afraid the alpha radiation has left an imprint. What was used was a soft beta emitter in place of a heated filament. If interested, look up the HIBEX missile. CRC From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 22 02:13:37 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 05 07:13:37 GMT Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal Message-ID: <0504220713.AA12956@ivan.Harhan.ORG> 9000 VAX wrote: > It is going to be a hard work. If it is me, I'd rather look at any > readily available SBC (PC104 or whatever that does not need a fan, or > even an severely downclocked PC), and add the keyboard support > hardware and software for LK201, to meet your expectation. The problem with this is that I absolutely positively cannot stand the PeeCee architecture. My design will have a non-8086-compatible CPU, a non-PeeCee design of system registers, and a ROM monitor that bears no relation to the PeeCee BIOS, instead it'll have the look and feel of a VAX console (chevron prompt)! MS From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 22 03:29:32 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:29:32 +0200 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050422102932.046b0632.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 21 Apr 05 23:39:36 GMT msokolov at ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > In my search for a good X terminal I have played some more with the > available options. [...] > I'm going to design and build my own X terminal, and I mean hardware. Why not use one of the very good classical Xterminals from NCD, Tektronix or HP (Envizex)? I have a Tektronix 300-something and it is great: Small, fanless, X11R5 or even X11R6, 8 bit color, can be used as a two port serial Terminal too, IIRC the software can even speak DECnet. IIRC the HP Envizex II has 16 bit color and audio. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Apr 22 03:43:06 2005 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:43:06 +0200 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504220709.AA12937@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504220709.AA12937@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050422104306.086634c3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 22 Apr 05 07:09:29 GMT msokolov at ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > > I'm suprised that you dont want to do this using a VS3100 (or 4000) > > and BSD of some sort. :) > As I already wrote, I obviously considered that, in fact that was the > very first thing I thought. The problem is that the best video I can > hope to get this way is VS3100 GPX (1024x864, 60 Hz refresh, 8 > planes). I have an SPX board (which is what VT1300 and VXT 2000 > used), but it's completely undocumented, so there is no way for me to > write an X server for it. There is SPX / LCSPX support for NetBSD. Some kind soul reverse engineered SPX / LCSPX and wrote a console driver for it. Surely enough to get information out of it to write a Xserver. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Apr 22 03:33:05 2005 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:33:05 +0200 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050422083304.GA10872@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Apr 21, 2005 at 06:07:47PM -0500, Kapteyn, Rob wrote: > > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > I don't remember all the details but I read that while NASA always tried to > > solve problems with $ and technology. > > > > The Russians used something better: thought. The biggest problems were > > heat and pressure. Solid state devices shut down when heated. The > > spacecraft was open on the flight to Venus and sealed up before landing. > > This kept the insides under vacuum which slowed down heat transference. > > > > Smart, very smart. > > Reminds me of joke I was told when I visited my relatives in Canada: > > "One of the first big problems of manned space flight was that ball-point pens > would not work reliably in zero gravity. > NASA started a huge research project and after more than a year the 'space pen' > was developed. > This was a ball point pen that could write upside down and in zero gravity. > > (BTW: These pens were sold to the public and widely advertised when I was a kid) > > The russian cosmonauts, on the other hand, simply used a pencil :-) Nice story, but at the bit about how " NASA started a huge research project" is wrong. The "Fisher Space Pen" was not developed by NASA, but by a company making pens (Fisher) and they not only developed it on their own dime, but also sold them to NASA at a few dollars per pen. And for using pencils in space: Having loose bits of nicely conductive graphite dust floating around the interiour of your space vehicle is a seriously bad idea since this is just asking for random shorts in your onboard electronics. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 22 04:21:50 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 05:21:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <20050422083304.GA10872@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20050422083304.GA10872@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <200504220925.FAA21129@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And for using pencils in space: Having loose bits of nicely > conductive graphite dust floating around the interiour of your space > vehicle is a seriously bad idea since this is just asking for random > shorts in your onboard electronics. Perhaps. But in the absence of other functional writing instruments, what choice is there? Does it cost more to develop (or, as you point out, buy after someone else develops) bad zero-gee pens or to put good filters in the air circulation system? Or use pencils made of pure wood together with sheets of carbon paper? ...what *did* the cosmonauti use? Is the pencil story an urban legend, or is there historical basis for it? (I've seen it elsewhere, but never with any sources cited.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 22 04:33:44 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:33:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: John Foust "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 21:55) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421214945.04d246b0@mail> Message-ID: <10504221033.ZM9655@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 21:55, John Foust wrote: > At 07:21 PM 4/21/2005, you wrote: > >You could just remove the fiche viewer screen. You don't need the > >screen to form the image, you only need the (virtual) image from the > >viewer's lens system to be focussed in the same plane as the scanner's > >optics. Actually, since the image is usually focussed on the back > >surface of the viewer screen, you'd want to remove it anyway. > > Pointing the scanner at the plane in space that happens to be the > viewing plane of the fiche viewer isn't going to result in an image. > The scanner wants to see reflected light. Focusing the fiche > projection at the scanner's sensor is a different sort of problem > that would involve changing the scanner's optics, no? It doesn't make any difference to the focussing of the scanner optics whether it's seeing an image produced by light reflected from a plane, or light from some other source producing an image in that same plane. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 22 04:24:33 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:24:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: "Eric Smith" "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 17:33) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <10504221024.ZM9643@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 17:33, Eric Smith wrote: > Pete wrote: > > Similarly, you don't need to remove the scanner's lamp, except perhaps > > to eliminate stray reflections that would cause glare and reduce > > contrast. You would just disconnect its power if that were the > > requirement. > > Many scanners do a calibration on the lamp. Some will refuse to scan if > they think the lamp isn't working correctly. You're right; I'd forgotten about that. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 22 06:13:14 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:13:14 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045913@sbs.jdfogg.com> > "James Fogg" wrote: > > > >If anyone here has contacts at MIT, or wanted to contact them about > >scanning services, you might find that they still have the > ability to > >scan fiche and *may* be affordable. > > If no one else wants to, I'll sign up for this. I'd love the > excuse to see the scanner :-) > > I've spoken to the nice ladies in the CSAIL reading room. > I'll bet they can point me in the right direction. They seem > to be very sympathetic to those of us into archiving. > > -brad Let me know if they still have it. I'd love to know. BTW - TDC was bought by Banctec, so it may be called a Banctec fiche scanner now. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 06:11:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:11:17 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> Message-ID: <1114168277.19161.4.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:41 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like > it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be > converted out of as quickly as possible? > > Fiche is great. Keep in clean and dry in a dark place and it will > last for hundreds of years. It's not like it's an old floppy or > something. As Eric said (so eloquently!), it's more a case of fiche making it harder to make the docs available to others. We've *probably* got everything in paper format as well as fiche (if not more) - but it'd be nice if we could make what we have available to others and fill some gaps in what's available online. I was hoping that there would be an easy way of scanning lots of fiche (as it's not in bound format which lends itself toward being fed unattended through a device) but it seems not (at least not without Al's gadget :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 06:16:16 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:16:16 +0000 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <200504220925.FAA21129@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20050422083304.GA10872@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <200504220925.FAA21129@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1114168576.19145.8.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 05:21 -0400, der Mouse wrote: > ...what *did* the cosmonauti use? Is the pencil story an urban legend, > or is there historical basis for it? (I've seen it elsewhere, but > never with any sources cited.) http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 22 06:18:40 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:18:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: "Eric Smith" "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 21, 22:35) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> <33127.64.169.63.74.1114148136.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <10504221218.ZM9845@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 21 2005, 22:35, Eric Smith wrote: > Tom wrote: > > Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like > > it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be > > converted out of as quickly as possible? > > > > Fiche is great. Keep in clean and dry in a dark place and it will > > last for hundreds of years. > [...] > > Not everything need exist inside a computer. > > Because if Alice has fiche in a clean dry dark place, that doesn't > necessarily help Bob. But if Alice's fiche is scanned and put on a web > site, it may help everyone. Exactly. I'd add that when you're actually using the documents, paper is almost always easier to handle. I've used DEC fiche to look up XXDP listings, technical manuals, and maintenance docs, and it's a pain going backwards and forwards between the machine (or board on the bench, or whatever) to the fiche reader. The fiche just happens to be a compact and effective way to store the data. > When was the last time you saw the IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown) > for a PDP-11T55? Probably yesterday, when I was looking through some of my microfiche :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 22 06:25:48 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:25:48 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045914@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? > Like it's > > some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to > be converted > > out of as quickly as possible? > > > Yeah, but there's at least two problems with it. > > One, it's really hard to make fiche available to other people > without scanning or giving out the original, and loaning out > fiche is potentially risky and a pain in the ass to track. Duplicating a fiche is cheap and simple. There are many Diazo based fiche duplicators that use autofeed hoppers and make about a 2 dupes/minute. Any service bureau can do this really cheaply. From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 06:44:44 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:44:44 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <424AACBE00010252@resmta03.ono.com> <6.1.2.0.2.20050420151219.02e79690@mail.netsync.net> Message-ID: <26c11a6405042204447565504b@mail.gmail.com> On 4/22/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/21/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On 4/20/05, Christian R. Fandt wrote: > > > Upon the date 22:44 19-04-05, Ethan Dicks said something like: > > > >Hmm... I had no idea. I have a several-inch-thick stack of prints for > > > >the 11/730-Z... > > > > > > Ohhhh, I would like a copy of any 11/730 docs you may find! > > > > OK... I'll do some digging this month. > > Boy, that was a short month... I happened to be next to one of my > caches of DEC prints and lo and behold, the very 11/730-ZA print stack > I was after. It is about 2 cm thick, and contains mechanical drawings > of the cable tray, prints for the PSU, TU58, CPU, and memory, > schematics and PAL equations included. > > It being B-sized drawings, I have no easy way to scan these... my > hardware tops out at 8.5"x14". Suggestions? > > -ethan > > See how much a print shop would charge to reduce it to A4. B+W shouldn't be more than 1-2p a sheet. Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 06:45:26 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:45:26 +0000 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045914@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045914@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <1114170326.19145.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 07:25 -0400, James Fogg wrote: > Duplicating a fiche is cheap and simple. There are many Diazo based > fiche duplicators that use autofeed hoppers and make about a 2 > dupes/minute. Any service bureau can do this really cheaply. Ok, so we need one of those, parts of a reader, a decent digital camera, and some duct tape... :-) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Apr 22 07:01:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <10504221033.ZM9655@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421214945.04d246b0@mail> <10504221033.ZM9655@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <200504221209.IAA21499@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> You don't need the ['fiche viewer] screen to form the image, you >>> only need the (virtual) image from the viewer's lens system to be >>> focussed in the same plane as the scanner's optics. >> Pointing the scanner at the plane in space that happens to be the >> viewing plane of the fiche viewer isn't going to result in an image. > It doesn't make any difference to the focussing of the scanner optics > whether it's seeing an image produced by light reflected from a > plane, or light from some other source producing an image in that > same plane. Ah, but it does. The image formed by the viewer optics is formed by light radiating from a central point (to a first approximation - the source is not perfectly pointlike or there would be no need for optics). The image required by the scanner is light converging on the scanner's sensors. Light reflected from a paper document is reflected in all directions (again, to a first approximation) and enough of it lands on the sensor for everything to work. But light radiating from 'fiche viewer optics towards a focal plane where there normally is a viewing screen will not behave that way; it will continue to radiate outwards rather than being nice and cooperative and focusing on the scanner sensor. It is no more readable to the scanner optics than to your eyes, and for very much the same reason. If you leave the viewing screen in place, everything will work - not because it changes either of the optical focus planes, but because it acts to take the light radiated more or less in one direction (away from the projector optics) and scatter it more or less evenly in all directions - in particular, with a suitable fraction heading towards the sensor. Again, this is very much like the reason the screen is needed for human viewing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Apr 22 07:02:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:02:50 -0400 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <3830.1114150453@www55.gmx.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050422080250.00b86c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:14 AM 4/22/05 +0200, you wrote: > >>> Some mil gear (eg PRC-41) has very small ceramic tubes -not sure if >>> they are quite as small as the Nuvistor but they must be close- >>> likewise some hearing aid amp tubes were pertty damn small as well. > >And don't forget the first generation of R/C receivers intended for use in >model airplanes. They needed something small, lightweight, battery-powered >and inexpensive, so voila - miniaturized valves. I can't claim to have seen >one "in the flesh" yet, but I have a hobbyist book on what they used to call >"micro-electronics" in the mid-50s (ooh, printed circuit boards instead of >solder lug strips!) which shows a device about the size of a packet of >cigarettes with several such valves directly soldered onto a board with the >wires coming out of them. > >Anybody here been R/C-ing back then? I was. I kept one of my tube type RC planes for many years but finally lost it when my mother moved while I was away in the service. I bought it second hand in about 1963. It and two other OLD planes disappeared during a garage sale. She says that she didn't sell them but they disappeared none the less. One was a hand built contol line model of a P-51 that my father built dring WW II. I really hated to lose that one. I was lucky in that I'd taken the engines out of all of them and taken them with me. I still have them, an O&R .23, a DeLong .30 and a McCoy something. All are original spark ignition engines. FWIW I do still have the "Little Stik" RC plane that I built in Thailand in 1974. It's been ALL over the world. Joe > >cheers > >-- >Arno Kletzander >Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen >www.iser.uni-erlangen.de > >+++ NEU: GMX DSL_Flatrate! Schon ab 14,99 EUR/Monat! +++ > >GMX Garantie: Surfen ohne Tempo-Limit! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl > From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 22 07:19:38 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:19:38 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050422071749.04de1db8@mail> At 11:41 PM 4/21/2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >Besides, I doubt there's many pages on fiche that don't already >exist on paper. A series of afternoon perusals of the sheet titles >will probably reveal that. Not everything need exist inside a computer. Ah, Grasshopper, you answer your own questions. "Afternoon search" does not equal "fgrep", does it? Each has its own benefits. Both are good. It's a shame that many of the fiche-only docs once existed in magtape form and are now lost. It would've been easier and less error-prone to emulate a viewer for old page layout RUNOFF-style markup. Has there ever been an anecdote found about why all that data was tossed? Fiche dominated because it was cheaper to reproduce and easier to view than electronic documents. It could handle hand drawings as well as COM. - John From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Apr 22 07:32:42 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:32:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: Microfiche scanning" (Apr 22, 8:01) References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421214945.04d246b0@mail> <10504221033.ZM9655@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200504221209.IAA21499@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10504221332.ZM9995@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 22 2005, 8:01, der Mouse wrote: > >>> You don't need the ['fiche viewer] screen to form the image, you > >>> only need the (virtual) image from the viewer's lens system to be > >>> focussed in the same plane as the scanner's optics. > >> Pointing the scanner at the plane in space that happens to be the > >> viewing plane of the fiche viewer isn't going to result in an image. > > It doesn't make any difference to the focussing of the scanner optics > > whether it's seeing an image produced by light reflected from a > > plane, or light from some other source producing an image in that > > same plane. > > Ah, but it does. Well, yes and no. I was actually thinking of the image produced in a microscope, which *is* different. Still, if you could put the scanner sensor in the same plane as the viewing screen was supposed to be, you'd form the right sort of image on the sensor. The sensor width would of course need to be the same as the screen width, and would need to not have any optics. I haven't looked at a scanner sensor for a long time so I don't know if that's possible. It probably isn't. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 22 08:38:54 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:38:54 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... Message-ID: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): http://tinyurl.com/9e6le ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 22 08:42:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:42:38 -0400 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop> Message-ID: <17000.65358.805000.92129@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in >> solid state. William> Not anymore. William> Tubes have finally had their day. Listening to the radio William> from a station with a high power solid state transmitter, William> looking at a Sony flat screen while typing this...its over, William> folks. Close but not quite. Every microwave oven has a tube in it. If you need more than a few kilowatts of power, especially at UHF or above, you're probably going to be using tubes. Those might be plain old 4CX15,000s, or -- for a megawatt or so at microwave frequencies -- 6 foot tall klystrons. paul From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 08:45:11 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:45:11 -0500 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le AHHHHHHH!!!!!!111eleven PS: Here at work they're thinking about getting a similar machine for all the fridges, couches, stoves, etc. that we receive. From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 22 08:47:12 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:47:12 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421214945.04d246b0@mail> Message-ID: <17001.96.32000.556187@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 07:21 PM 4/21/2005, you wrote: >> You could just remove the fiche viewer screen. You don't need the >> screen to form the image, you only need the (virtual) image from >> the viewer's lens system to be focussed in the same plane as the >> scanner's optics. Actually, since the image is usually focussed >> on the back surface of the viewer screen, you'd want to remove it >> anyway. John> Pointing the scanner at the plane in space that happens to be John> the viewing plane of the fiche viewer isn't going to result in John> an image. The scanner wants to see reflected light. Focusing John> the fiche projection at the scanner's sensor is a different John> sort of problem that would involve changing the scanner's John> optics, no? No. An image is an image. There's nothing magical about "reflected light", it's the same as any other light. The one issue you might run into is light loss due to mismatched apertures. paul From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 22 08:56:56 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:56:56 -0500 Subject: $10K claimed for Electronics issue Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050422085524.04e7f7b8@mail> With every mania comes justifications... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4472549.stm Mr Clark, who admits he is "a bit of a hoarder", collected the Electronics magazine issues, as well as others, after the Philips Central Library in the UK - now closed - started to clean them out. "I could feel the hairs standing up on my arms. I think I've got that, I thought - although I wasn't sure." - David Clark "In the 70s, they started throwing out large quantities of these magazines," he said. "I was in my 20s at the time and thought you shouldn't throw them out because they are recording the golden age of electronics." He gave several hundreds of them a home first in his loft, then under the floorboards and had not looked at them since. - John From cb at mythtech.net Fri Apr 22 08:59:09 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:59:09 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... Message-ID: >Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): >http://tinyurl.com/9e6le Ugh... geek snuff pics! -chris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 09:05:43 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:05:43 +0000 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1114178743.19407.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 09:38 -0400, Computer Collector Newsletter wrote: > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le Damn, they've got a much nicer building that our storage areas too! From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 22 09:06:31 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:06:31 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> <1114168277.19161.4.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17001.1255.41000.4989@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:41 -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: >> Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like >> it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be >> converted out of as quickly as possible? >> >> Fiche is great. Keep in clean and dry in a dark place and it will >> last for hundreds of years. It's not like it's an old floppy or >> something. Jules> As Eric said (so eloquently!), it's more a case of fiche Jules> making it harder to make the docs available to others. We've Jules> *probably* got everything in paper format as well as fiche (if Jules> not more) - but it'd be nice if we could make what we have Jules> available to others and fill some gaps in what's available Jules> online. DEC sold software listings on fiche, but not on paper. A lot of that software was either not available in machine readable form, or ridiculously expensive. For example, RSTS or VMS listing fiche can probably be found, but source kits of either are hard to come by. The same only more so is likely to be true for "layered products" (compilers etc.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 22 09:12:29 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:12:29 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> <6.2.1.2.2.20050422071749.04de1db8@mail> Message-ID: <17001.1613.653000.954746@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> It's a shame that many of the fiche-only docs once existed in John> magtape form and are now lost. It would've been easier and John> less error-prone to emulate a viewer for old page layout John> RUNOFF-style markup. Has there ever been an anecdote found John> about why all that data was tossed? I assume the tapes were never thought of as archival storage -- merely temporary containers to hold the bits as they were carried from the producer to the fiche printer. So there was no more reason to preserve those tapes than there is to back up /tmp. John> Fiche dominated because it was cheaper to reproduce and easier John> to view than electronic documents. It could handle hand John> drawings as well as COM. Sure. Some fiche is computer output, straight tape to fiche; others is photography of paper originals. An obvious benefit is that you could carry tens of thousands of pages in a field service toolbox. That was important back in the days when field service actually repaired things in the field (as opposed to just module swap). paul From Saquinn624 at aol.com Fri Apr 22 10:18:04 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:18:04 EDT Subject: surplus store in Seattle area Message-ID: <20.436754c2.2f9a6fac@aol.com> BOEING!!! if you're in Kent, you should definitely check it out. Feast or famine, prices sometimes great, ok, or outrageous, but they have everything from VAXen to ONYX/HP V-class machines, unfortunatly mostly PCs (but I got my $5 Apollo, and my $25 Indigo2 IMPACT 10000 (this was 3 years ago) - Scott Quinn From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 22 10:19:39 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:19:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <17000.65358.805000.92129@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > If you need more than a few kilowatts of power, especially at UHF or > above, you're probably going to be using tubes. Those might be plain > old 4CX15,000s, or -- for a megawatt or so at microwave frequencies -- > 6 foot tall klystrons. Like I said before - not anymore. Let it go, man, let it go... William Donzelli aw288 at osgn.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 22 10:23:50 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:23:50 -0500 Subject: IBM 3390s on ebay... Message-ID: <200504221023.51273.pat@computer-refuge.org> Wow, for the first time that I've ever seen, actual IBM 3390s... Items #5189150755, and 5189150713 Of course $5000 seems to me to be a bit of a high starting price... probably off the mark by about 2 orders of magnitude. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 22 10:24:28 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:24:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le Yes...recycling...bad thing...wouldn't want that... (yes, I am feeling a bit pissed lately at a lot of things) William Donzelli aw288 at osgn.org From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 22 10:31:34 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:31:34 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Apr 2005 16:05:07 PDT." <200504212305.QAA05717@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200504221531.j3MFVY5u027370@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > It will most likely be recorded as the difference between >that person and a reference person. Most likely the >one used for the genome project. The differences are >a lot smaller than the parts that are the same. It's interesting you mentioned that. I heard a talk from some folks at the Broad institute who were essentially "diffing" sequences in yeast dna. I was astounded at how close what they are doing is to some of the reverse engineering I've done. Looked almost identical to me. lots of conditional subroutine calls in a Turing machine :-) -brad From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 22 10:36:18 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:36:18 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504221535.j3MFZJeC099100@dewey.classiccmp.org> I think that machine is where "The HP Way" went. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of chris Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 9:59 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Better have a strong stomach for this... >Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): >http://tinyurl.com/9e6le Ugh... geek snuff pics! -chris From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 22 10:36:48 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:36:48 -0500 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504220709.AA12937@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504220709.AA12937@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200504221036.48587.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 22 April 2005 02:09, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Be aware that this shouldn't be all that difficult; Linux supports > > running an LK201/401 on a serial port via a device driver in late > > 2.4 and 2.6 kerneles. > > It doesn't matter. The only code that will know about and talk to > the LK201 will be the X server and StarMON ROM monitor. For the > Linux kernel (and for the hardware) the LK201 port will be just a > bog-standard serial port, Linux will have no idea what is connected > to it. (Keyboard support is not needed in the Linux kernel because > it'll be completely hidden from the user.) Well, X generally talks to the keyboard and mouse drivers of the kernel to do its stuff, and I don't see any reason to try and avoid that. > > I'd skip USB all-together, and just use a serial or PS/2 interface > > mouse. > > Why not offer it as an option if the extra design cost is negligible? > It's just a USB chip on the PCI bus. There is no extra software > development effort since USB mice are already supported by the Linux > kernel and XFree86 server. Sure, why not. Actually, I don't see anything that wrong with it, I just am not a huge fan of USB. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 10:35:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:35:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421200331.32c3cb21.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > As an aside, another microfilm technolgy that is interesting is > 'aperture cards.' Those are 'conventional' IBM Punched Cards, with a > slotted window in them that you slide a piece of microfilm into. > Generally used for archival document retrieval systems. The film would > contain an engineering drawing, and part of the card has a field > containing punched index information. Yet another technology that's > mostly gone. I've got a deck of these :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 10:40:58 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:40:58 +0000 Subject: $10K claimed for Electronics issue In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050422085524.04e7f7b8@mail> References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050422085524.04e7f7b8@mail> Message-ID: <1114184458.19482.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 08:56 -0500, John Foust wrote: > He gave several hundreds of them a home first in his loft, then > under the floorboards and had not looked at them since. Oooh I hadn't thought of that - suddenly I've doubled the potential storage space that I had ;-) From kth at srv.net Fri Apr 22 11:12:24 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:12:24 -0600 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <20050421134948.L1279@localhost> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <20050421134948.L1279@localhost> Message-ID: <42692268.1020100@srv.net> Tom Jennings wrote: > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, vrs wrote: > >> My low-tech, low cost solution to this problem was to buy a fiche >> printer, >> print the fiche on paper, then scan that. The quality is sort of barely >> adequate. >> >> Unfortunately, it is also very much a "low volume" solution, just barely >> adequate for a manual or two. (My printer requires you to manually >> align >> each page.) 25000 sheets calls for something more sophisticated. > > > Maybe get a little more systematic? Is there any rhyme or reason > to the fiche, eg. the first images are title/doc > ID/table-of-contents pages? If so, tediously capture those, then > you'll know what's worth bothering with and what's not. > Split the task up, maybe by stealing some software from DP http://www.pgdp.net/ to start with. 1. One person scans a set of fiche, and put them up on a site somewhere. 2. Someone takes a fiche, and breaks it into page images. 3. Someone OCR's the images. 4. Run through a couple of rounds of proofing 5. Someone massages the individual pages into a complete manual. 3. Someone merges all the pages for one document into a pdf. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 10:46:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:46:52 +0000 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114184812.19482.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:15 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state. > > Not anymore. > > Tubes have finally had their day. Listening to the radio from a station > with a high power solid state transmitter, looking at a Sony flat screen > while typing this...its over, folks. Do LCD screens still blow pixels after a couple of years? That'd be my only reservation compared to a traditional CRT. Mind you, I like this 21" CRT in front of me - there's plenty of flat space on top (not covering the vents :) on which to balance urgent stuff. Can't do that with a flat screen, so nerrrr! ;-) From kth at srv.net Fri Apr 22 11:25:09 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:25:09 -0600 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <42692565.5070804@srv.net> Eric Smith wrote: >Pete wrote: > > >> Similarly, you don't need to remove the scanner's lamp, except perhaps >>to eliminate stray reflections that would cause glare and reduce >>contrast. You would just disconnect its power if that were the >>requirement. >> >> > >Many scanners do a calibration on the lamp. Some will refuse to scan if >they think the lamp isn't working correctly. > >Eric > > Get a scanner that has the capability of scanning slides. (Many epson can do this, esp. the Perfection series). They have a light in the hood, which you can easily disconnect (simply unplug the hood). When scanning slides, they do not use the light in the base. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Apr 22 10:58:49 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:58:49 -0500 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 22 April 2005 10:24, William Donzelli wrote: > > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le > > Yes...recycling...bad thing...wouldn't want that... I wouldn't be so upset if I couldn't see a Sun E5x00/6x00 rack sitting there in the forground, a system that's probably still worth >$1k, or at least a few hundred $$, and still a fairly desirable system. I don't mind them recycling stuff that can't be resold to other people for use, but when you start pitching perfectly sellable machines to the shredder, perhaps you need to rethink your methods... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From news at computercollector.com Fri Apr 22 11:00:19 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:00:19 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504221559.j3MFx9ts099410@dewey.classiccmp.org> I'm sure you realize that my heartbreak here isn't anti-recycling, just fear that something with historic significant might wind up in the shredder. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 11:24 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Better have a strong stomach for this... > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le Yes...recycling...bad thing...wouldn't want that... (yes, I am feeling a bit pissed lately at a lot of things) William Donzelli aw288 at osgn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 22 11:27:36 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:27:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <1114184812.19482.26.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: > Do LCD screens still blow pixels after a couple of years? That'd be my > only reservation compared to a traditional CRT. I'd rather blow a pixel than a whole gun... I actually still like a tube in front of me, but damn, these new(ish) flatscreens are nice. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 22 11:28:27 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 05 16:28:27 GMT Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal Message-ID: <0504221628.AA13556@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Well, X generally talks to the keyboard and mouse drivers of the kernel > to do its stuff, and I don't see any reason to try and avoid that. That behavior makes perfect sense when the keyboard hardware interface is very special requiring a special kernel driver anyway (like those awful PeeCee keyboards) or when the keyboard port is integrated with other hardware that makes up the X display that needs a kernel driver (the case with DEC QVSS and QDSS). However, in the present case where the keyboard port is bog-standard serial and is not in any way integrated with other display hardware (VGA chip), but rather lives alongside with other serial ports on the machine doing other things, it makes much more sense for the Linux kernel to treat it as a regular serial port without any LK201 knowledge and concentrate the latter in the X server. Of course I may change my mind once I get down into the code, but this is my current tentative plan. > Sure, why not. Actually, I don't see anything that wrong with it, I > just am not a huge fan of USB. :) Me neither. But if I'm going to invest time and money into building my own hardware, I may as well do my absolute best job while I'm at it: it'll cost the same to make this thing with or without the additional port, and having more options supported for the same cost means a greater return on the same initial investment. MS From aek at spies.com Fri Apr 22 11:29:26 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:29:26 -0700 Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <1c090c5e4376fec3bd3e456ed461c782@spies.com> It's a shame that many of the fiche-only docs once existed in magtape form and are now lost. It would've been easier and less error-prone to emulate a viewer for old page layout RUNOFF-style markup. Has there ever been an anecdote found about why all that data was tossed? -- Why is any old media tossed? The company considers it of no value. Storage space (as many of us know) is not free. If there is no chance that the information is needed for future projects or support of existing projects it is discarded. -- WRT the scanners that I have, the Mekel is a high resolution transport that can do step and repeat on all of the frames of the fiche. There is no direct display of the images on the unit, since the steping is done under computer control. I have some older 3M film/fiche scanners that are manually positioned for fiche and do automatic scanning of microfilm. The 3M units are of the type that project onto a screen and have a camera on the rear of the unit. That is the most common design for scanners under $10k. If folks in the Bay Area are interested in the 3M units, I have five available. They would probably be around $500 ea. From dhbarr at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 11:32:47 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:32:47 -0500 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 22 April 2005 10:24, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > > > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le > > > > Yes...recycling...bad thing...wouldn't want that... > > I wouldn't be so upset if I couldn't see a Sun E5x00/6x00 rack sitting > there in the forground, ... > for use, but when you start pitching perfectly sellable machines to the > shredder, perhaps you need to rethink your methods... But if you don't destroy the "obsolete" systems, how are you supposed to maintain your 10% growth rate? -dhbarr. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 11:30:31 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:30:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 3390s on ebay... In-Reply-To: <200504221023.51273.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Wow, for the first time that I've ever seen, actual IBM 3390s... > > Items #5189150755, and 5189150713 > > Of course $5000 seems to me to be a bit of a high starting price... > probably off the mark by about 2 orders of magnitude. I had two of these that I could have taken with me when I moved out of my old warehouse but I decided to leave them behind as I felt six 24' truckloads was quite enough by then. Also, they're just storage...kinda boring :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 22 11:33:50 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:33:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Certainly, multifunction tubes were around - the first ones were the dual >> diodes and rectifiers of the 1920s, then later twin triodes, extra diodes, >> and yes, to the ultimate Compactrons. > >The most complex common multi-section valve in the UK (i.e. with the most >sections), is the triple diode triode. It came with a variety of heater >ratings -- the EABC80 (6.3V heater), UABC80 (100mA series string heater, >by far the most common version) and the oddball PABC80 (300mA series >string heater). It turned up in numerous AM/FM radios in the 1960s, where >it was used for the AM detector (1 diode), FM detector (the other 2 >diodes) and audio ampifier (triode). Hi Higher quality AM receivers used the two diode tubes. One diode was for the detector while the other was used for the AGC. That way the loading could be optimized for each function. Dwight It has a B9A (9 pin miniature) base, >so there must be some commoning of electrodes going on, probably the >cathodes. > >-tony > > From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 22 11:35:13 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:35:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221559.j3MFx9ts099410@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I'm sure you realize that my heartbreak here isn't anti-recycling, just fear > that something with historic significant might wind up in the shredder. Yes, I know, but it is bound to happen. We can't save it all... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 11:34:46 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 22 April 2005 10:24, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): > > > http://tinyurl.com/9e6le > > > > Yes...recycling...bad thing...wouldn't want that... > > I wouldn't be so upset if I couldn't see a Sun E5x00/6x00 rack sitting > there in the forground, a system that's probably still worth >$1k, or > at least a few hundred $$, and still a fairly desirable system. I > don't mind them recycling stuff that can't be resold to other people > for use, but when you start pitching perfectly sellable machines to the > shredder, perhaps you need to rethink your methods... So find that place and offer them money for the stuff before they shred it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Apr 22 11:59:53 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:59:53 -0400 Subject: Apple II/Older Mac stuff.. Message-ID: <1114189193.26280.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> FWIW, One of the Dayton, Ohio schools around here is emptying some spare classrooms, and old storage area's of their older Apple computers. If anyone is interested in picking up a carload of stuff or so, send me an email, and I'll put you in touch w/ the appropriate person. (I believe he'd prefer me NOT to post his email address) The guy says its cheaper on the school district to give it away, and let someone pick it up, than to put it in the dumpster, and he'd rather see someone have them than dumping them. I don't know exactly everything he's got, nor am I certain he exactly knows, but I picked up a small Corolla's backseat/trunk's worth of Apple II stuff, and assorted Localtalk networking yesterday.. Said I'd see if anyone else wanted anything, and was in the area, so I am.. David From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Apr 22 12:02:39 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:02:39 -0400 Subject: Ever wondered what happened to all those missing keys from old keyboards... Message-ID: <1114189359.26280.20.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/keyboard_car/ Well, now I know.. :) David From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 22 12:09:23 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning Message-ID: <200504221709.KAA06215@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > >>>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: > > John> At 07:21 PM 4/21/2005, you wrote: > >> You could just remove the fiche viewer screen. You don't need the > >> screen to form the image, you only need the (virtual) image from > >> the viewer's lens system to be focussed in the same plane as the > >> scanner's optics. Actually, since the image is usually focussed > >> on the back surface of the viewer screen, you'd want to remove it > >> anyway. > > John> Pointing the scanner at the plane in space that happens to be > John> the viewing plane of the fiche viewer isn't going to result in > John> an image. The scanner wants to see reflected light. Focusing > John> the fiche projection at the scanner's sensor is a different > John> sort of problem that would involve changing the scanner's > John> optics, no? > >No. An image is an image. There's nothing magical about "reflected >light", it's the same as any other light. > >The one issue you might run into is light loss due to mismatched >apertures. Hi Paul That is what he is talking about. The scanner would most likely have severe vignetting. As in a telescope, you want two things to happen where the eye is. One is that you want the image to focus at the back of the eye. The other is that you want the image of the aperture to focus at the iris of the eye. In this case you'd want the image of the source to focus near the scanners sensor to gather the most light. This most likely doesn't even come to a focus as is typical in projection systems. Dwight > > paul > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 22 12:09:50 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:09:50 +0000 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114189790.19482.39.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 12:27 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > Do LCD screens still blow pixels after a couple of years? That'd be my > > only reservation compared to a traditional CRT. > > I'd rather blow a pixel than a whole gun... Sure... the actual CRT seems to typically to be the last thing to fail though; power supplies usually blow up first. Mind you, a CRT usually gets a little tired after a few years. I'm not sure how long its "good" lifetime compares to that of an LCD panel though, but my impression is that the CRT will likely outlive the LCD before replacement's necessary. > I actually still like a tube in front of me, but damn, these new(ish) flatscreens are nice. Do they still suffer from a *really* narrow viewing angle (such as found with old laptops)? I tend to sit in all sorts of strange positions depending on how hard I need to concentrate, which might put me off an LCD if I had to keep on tweaking the settings (at the moment I'm sort of side-on to the screen with my feet up on the desk...) cheers J. From birs23 at zeelandnet.nl Fri Apr 22 12:22:20 2005 From: birs23 at zeelandnet.nl (Stefan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:22:20 +0200 Subject: Various HP / Motif books Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20050422191839.035dc008@pop.xs4all.nl> I am not sure if this is 100% on topic since this stuff is from 1991 so well, its a bit on the edge I suppose. Anyway, I have several books I would like to get rid of with subjects like Starbase, HP Visual User Environment, HP X Windows, HP 9000, OSF Motif. If anyone is interested let me know and I will make a list. All these books are almost unused and from +/- 1991. Cheers, Stefan. ------------------------------------------------------- http://www.oldcomputercollection.com From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 12:23:50 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:23:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > I'm sure you realize that my heartbreak here isn't anti-recycling, just fear > > that something with historic significant might wind up in the shredder. > > Yes, I know, but it is bound to happen. We can't save it all... I don't fret (much) over stuff lost. I look instead at the stuff I've managed to save and am happy--at least until it's time to move again :( -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Apr 22 12:27:19 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:27:19 -0500 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: References: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050422121923.04b0bfe8@mail> At 11:34 AM 4/22/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >So find that place and offer them money for the stuff before they shred it. These places certainly have people paid to triage. Some systems are reclaimed as-is. Maybe they boot-and-nuke and sell the bare system to a PC reseller, maybe they take systems apart and sell the components, or maybe they have their own shop for selling the PCs. If the owners have been in the recycling / junk business, then they'll certainly have the money-scavenging attitudes we see at any resale shop or auction house. Don't think you'll be able to skim all the IMSAIs at $5 each. The operators will want their fair share if the material is valuable - and by simply showing up and asking to buy item X, you've established there's some value. You need to overcome their inertia to even bother to sit and talk to you about buying some particular pile you like. Time is money. Storage is money. Even bothering costs money. - John From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 22 12:31:38 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:31:38 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <426934FA.2080905@oldskool.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Second, it's much easier - for me at least - to flip through a PDF than > it is to flip through microfiche. Moreso, you can't SEARCH fiche. I am converting all of my documentation, misc. pages, etc. into PDF or ASCII text so that they can be indexed and searched. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 22 12:39:14 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:39:14 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... References: Message-ID: <016301c54762$33e463a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> In the first picture it even looks even like they have Alpha servers there ready to die. Yike. > So find that place and offer them money for the stuff before > they shred it. Exactly. There was a story used in "The Twilight Zone" twice, once in the 1960's and once in the 1980's. In the cold-war version, the powerful character was left as an evil threat to be feared and loathed... but by the Spielberged version he was befriended and his power was supposedly turned to good. Anyway, befriend and not fear your local scrapper. John A. Archival: UnTinied: Story (21-Apr-2005) http://news.com.com/Tech+giants+boost+recycling+efforts/2100-1003_3-5679907. html Photos http://news.com.com/Photos+For+old+PCs,+the+end+comes+in+pieces/2009-1003_3- 5679949.html From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 22 12:42:05 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:42:05 +0100 Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes References: <20050421093014.H1279@localhost> <20050421194705.40271dc0.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002f01c54762$99f27ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Scott Stevens" > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 09:31:08 -0700 (PDT) > Tom Jennings wrote: > > > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > >> - What was/is the smallest tube? purpose? > > > > > > RCA's Nuvistor - a family often found in late 1960s TV tuners and > > > some test equipments. They are almost always triodes, and are really > > > small - 3/4 inch long, maybe 3/8 inch diameter, all metal. RCA made > > > a few half sized Nuvistors, but never sold them. > > > > Listers' favorite 'scopes, the Tek 5xx series, often have them in > > the vertical plugins. > > > The first generation Tek 453, 'the version to avoid' has nuvistors in > the front end. The 453 and 454 are the last-generation Tek scope to not > include custom unobtanium semiconductors. I have a few 500 series plug-ins with nuvistors, and have found them to be good reliable devices (you soon recognise the signs of a nuvistor on its way out), I would have the nuvistor version of the 453 and 454 in preference to the FET, but then I don't need to switch on a scope and use it immediatly. The valve is much more tolerant of over voltage on the input. I have seen a sub-minature valve that is about 1/4 of the size of the nuvistor, it is a small ceramic triode, with gold pins, used in the RF stage of radar receivers. one of my staff had a complete oscillator / mixer unit mounted on a plinth on his desk (a present when he left the Air Force), the unit was around 3" long and 3/8" diameter, which included the oscilator and mixer cavities. The valve plugged in one end. Jim. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 22 12:52:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <200504221752.KAA06248@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > >Mind you, a CRT usually gets a little tired after a few years. I'm not >sure how long its "good" lifetime compares to that of an LCD panel >though, but my impression is that the CRT will likely outlive the LCD >before replacement's necessary. Hi At the last company that I was at the same CRT was turned on and of for each workday for 7 years. I'd call that reliable. Current day monitors CRT's seem to be much more reliable than the color screens used in the 60's. Maybe they use better getter or something. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 12:52:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ever wondered what happened to all those missing keys from old keyboards... In-Reply-To: <1114189359.26280.20.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, David Holland wrote: > http://j-walkblog.com/index.php?/weblog/posts/keyboard_car/ > > Well, now I know.. :) Wow, neat. But a lot of old machines died for that artistic display. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 13:01:47 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:01:47 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001701c54765$5b82e0a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >Boy, that was a short month... I happened to be next to one of my >caches of DEC prints and lo and behold, the very 11/730-ZA print stack >I was after. It is about 2 cm thick, and contains mechanical drawings >of the cable tray, prints for the PSU, TU58, CPU, and memory, >schematics and PAL equations included. > >It being B-sized drawings, I have no easy way to scan these... my >hardware tops out at 8.5"x14". Suggestions? Is this any different to the one I scanned and is available via Manx. If not, I'd suggest that for penance you find something that isn't already on there and scan that :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 13:11:11 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:11:11 +0100 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405042204447565504b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801c54766$ab9433e0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > See how much a print shop would charge to reduce it to A4. B+W > shouldn't be more than 1-2p a sheet. Leaving aside the fact that it is probably already scanned, all the 11x17 photocopiers I've seen lately are actually printer/scanner combos. So if it can copy 11x17", it can almost certainly scan 11x17" and produce either TIFF or PDF. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 22 12:48:03 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:48:03 +0100 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Apr 2005 08:14:13 +0200." <3830.1114150453@www55.gmx.net> Message-ID: <200504221748.SAA04434@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Arno Kletzander said: > And don't forget the first generation of R/C receivers intended for use in > model airplanes. They needed something small, lightweight, battery-powered > and inexpensive, so voila - miniaturized valves. I can't claim to have seen > one "in the flesh" yet, but I have a hobbyist book on what they used to call > "micro-electronics" in the mid-50s (ooh, printed circuit boards instead of > solder lug strips!) which shows a device about the size of a packet of > cigarettes with several such valves directly soldered onto a board with the > wires coming out of them. > > Anybody here been R/C-ing back then? > I saw them, but by the time I could afford r/c myself it was solid state. I remember guys using valves and miniature hi-sensitivity relays to run things like "Galloping Ghost" - a pwm proportional setup. There were tuned reeds as well for multi-channel. > > -- > Arno Kletzander > Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen > www.iser.uni-erlangen.de > > +++ NEU: GMX DSL_Flatrate! Schon ab 14,99 EUR/Monat! +++ > > GMX Garantie: Surfen ohne Tempo-Limit! http://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Apr 21 15:11:45 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 21:11:45 +0100 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Apr 2005 18:22:48 -0000." <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504212011.VAA26194@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:53 -0600, woodelf wrote: > > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs > > other than > > clone DEC equipment? > > *somewhere* at Bletchley we have a book (circa late 60's is my guess) > about Soviet computer technology. I'll see if I can lay my hands on it > this weekend (I have a feeling it may be on loan to one of the other > guys at the moment though) > > How much of what's described in there is of original design I don't > know. Will see if I can find it anyway... > > cheers > > Jules > > MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very interesting... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 13:20:00 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:20:00 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB In-Reply-To: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> Message-ID: <001901c54767$e731c790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Dont know if this is common knowledge, but I have a VS3100/76 that I threw a > 2gig IBM drive in, tried to put VMS on and - it worked. All the stuff I saw > seemed to indicate that 3100s didn't like sysdisks over 1 gig, but my /76 > doesn't seem to mind. The console disk driver wraps when addressing logical blocks beyoned 1.073GB. So if you try to access a block at 2GB you get the block at ~0.7GB. The console disk driver is used early on in the boot process (until enough of OpenVMS has been loaded that it can switch to its own full-featured driver) and also during crash dumping (since the console driver is in eprom, it can be relied on not have become corrupt). If any of the files needed during boot end up past the 1.073GB mark, the system will not boot. Event if the files happen to lie in accessible places initially, they might be moved by a subsequent upgrade or disk defragmentation. Much, much worse is the behaviour during a crash. If the crashdump file happens to be beyond the 1.073GB mark, then anything actually at the wrapped around address is at risk! There are ways around this problem, but the only easy one is to use an RZ26 (1GB disk) as the system disk. That's not a problem at least for releases up until OpenVMS V7.1. I stopped getting updates at that point so I don't know how much bigger VAX releases have become. The problem is not such an issue with *BSD since you can effectively control what lives where. The issue affects all VAXstation 3100s, the MicroVAX 3100 Models 10 and 20 and the early releases of the MicroVAX 3100 Models 10e and 20e. I believe that a fix was produced for the 10e and 20e and ROMs dated after April 1992 are fine. The OpenVMS FAQ has more details. So just because it seems to work, does not make it a good idea :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Apr 22 13:27:49 2005 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:27:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old neon lamps and sockets In-Reply-To: References: <1113763733.10734.66.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: Does anyone know of a source for NE-3 neon lamps? They're T2 telephone slide based #2, also known as 8AA. I'm also looking for T2 slide based sockets. This is for a panel replication project. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://ripsaw.cac.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 13:36:20 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:36:20 +0100 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <17001.1255.41000.4989@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001b01c5476a$2f3ed6c0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >DEC sold software listings on fiche, but not on paper. A lot of that >software was either not available in machine readable form, or >ridiculously expensive. For example, RSTS or VMS listing fiche can >probably be found, but source kits of either are hard to come by. The >same only more so is likely to be true for "layered products" >(compilers etc.) The VMS listings switched from fiche to CD when the fiche had grown to nearly two boxes per release. AFAICT the CD source listings kit has the same stuff that went into the fiche: the .LST files. There was a source kit, from which you could produce your own VMS, but I believe that rather than being a $1K/annum subscription, it was a $200K per release cost. I don't know when the last one was done, but I do remember someone with Engineering saying that they'll do another one when someone actually asks. I don't know if all layered product groups used fiche as an archival medium, but I know that PSI, DECnet-RSX and ALL-IN-1 did on at least some oocasions. Just as well really, because I'm willing to bet that most of the archived source tapes have ended up in the bit-bucker. I remember hearing (probably via Bob Supnik) that DEC had a big clear out of the archives that they were paying someone (Iron Mountain?) to maintain. Pity really, as I'd bet that the entirety of the sources (and build tools etc.) for everything up to and including the PDP-11 would have fit on a single CD, or at most, a single DVD. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Apr 22 13:37:42 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:37:42 -0400 Subject: Apple II/Older Mac stuff.. In-Reply-To: <1114189193.26280.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1114189193.26280.16.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <1114195062.26280.33.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> I'm afraid I wasn't quite clear on my note, based on the couple of responses I've got. It is my impression that the guy wants local pickup due to the time involved to collect stuff and ship it out. (And no, I can't hold anymore. I've gotten enough glare's from the spouse already. ) Sorry 'bout that. David On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 12:59 -0400, David Holland wrote: > FWIW, > > One of the Dayton, Ohio schools around here is emptying some spare > classrooms, and old storage area's of their older Apple computers. > > If anyone is interested in picking up a carload of stuff or so, send me > an email, and I'll put you in touch w/ the appropriate person. (I > believe he'd prefer me NOT to post his email address) > > The guy says its cheaper on the school district to give it away, and let > someone pick it up, than to put it in the dumpster, and he'd rather see > someone have them than dumping them. > > I don't know exactly everything he's got, nor am I certain he exactly > knows, but I picked up a small Corolla's backseat/trunk's worth of Apple > II stuff, and assorted Localtalk networking yesterday.. > > Said I'd see if anyone else wanted anything, and was in the area, so I > am.. > > David > From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 22 14:04:27 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:04:27 -0400 Subject: tube technology and EMP References: <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <200504212011.VAA26194@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <17001.19131.900534.574822@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Stan" == Stan Barr writes: Stan> MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely Stan> original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in Stan> my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very Stan> interesting... Have you seen any references to "Sigma" or "Ruta", or an organization named "STIMTI"? paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 14:29:19 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:29:19 -0600 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <4269508F.6010005@jetnet.ab.ca> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >Hi > Higher quality AM receivers used the two diode tubes. >One diode was for the detector while the other was >used for the AGC. That way the loading could be optimized >for each function. >Dwight > > I wonder if the quality of AM radio ( not counting the decline in music taste) has gone down since every thing uses soild state diodes as compared to tube diodes. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 14:36:52 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <42692565.5070804@srv.net> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org> <10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <42682027.2030407@oldskool.org> <10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <42692565.5070804@srv.net> Message-ID: <49724.207.145.53.202.1114198612.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Kevin wrote: > Get a scanner that has the capability of scanning slides. > (Many epson can do this, esp. the Perfection series). They > have a light in the hood, which you can easily disconnect > (simply unplug the hood). > > When scanning slides, they do not use the light in the base. But don't they still go through a CCD (or CMOS) sensor calibration cycle? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Apr 22 14:59:19 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:59:19 +0100 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:04:27 EDT." <17001.19131.900534.574822@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200504221959.UAA07066@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Paul Koning said: > >>>>> "Stan" == Stan Barr writes: > > Stan> MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely > Stan> original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in > Stan> my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very > Stan> interesting... > > Have you seen any references to "Sigma" or "Ruta", or an organization > named "STIMTI"? No. A quick scan through the Russian chapter in the book didn't throw up any references either. Incidentally, the SETUN computer used ternary logic using ferrite cores magnetised in either direction or not magnetized at all to give the three levels. There can't have been many similar designs. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From aek at spies.com Fri Apr 22 15:07:34 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:07:34 -0700 Subject: TI 990/10 DX-10 disc images Message-ID: <5896105b71d297f215a0a6092d197abc@spies.com> Dave Pitts reminded me today about mirroring the DX-10 disc images he has along with a simulator capable of running them. The stuff is now up on www.bitsavers.org/bits/ti/www.cozx.com/dpitts From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 15:11:33 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:11:33 -0400 Subject: tube technology and EMP Message-ID: <0IFD00GQU6QWS8M1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: tube technology and EMP > From: William Donzelli > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:27:36 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> Do LCD screens still blow pixels after a couple of years? That'd be my >> only reservation compared to a traditional CRT. > >I'd rather blow a pixel than a whole gun... > >I actually still like a tube in front of me, but damn, these >new(ish) flatscreens are nice. > >William Donzelli >aw288 at osfn.org My .02 is sure LCDs are nice, small and expensive but, they even come with a guarentee that 99.99% of the pixels are good. The rest are well, bad. A lot of users have noted that getting an LCD with 100% good pixels is either tough or expensive. Then again I have Monitors with the still common tube and when they die it's 15$ here in MA to get rid of one with a bad gun or a impossible to replace HV transformer. As a result I try to NOT collect anything with a CRT onless it's fairly unique. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 15:19:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:19:19 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IFD0026W73U9HR5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: Stan Barr > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:48:03 +0100 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Hi, > >Arno Kletzander said: > >> And don't forget the first generation of R/C receivers intended for use in >> model airplanes. They needed something small, lightweight, battery-powered >> and inexpensive, so voila - miniaturized valves. I can't claim to have seen >> one "in the flesh" yet, but I have a hobbyist book on what they used to call >> "micro-electronics" in the mid-50s (ooh, printed circuit boards instead of >> solder lug strips!) which shows a device about the size of a packet of >> cigarettes with several such valves directly soldered onto a board with the >> wires coming out of them. >> >> Anybody here been R/C-ing back then? >> > >I saw them, but by the time I could afford r/c myself it was solid state. >I remember guys using valves and miniature hi-sensitivity relays to run >things like "Galloping Ghost" - a pwm proportional setup. >There were tuned reeds as well for multi-channel. > I still have a complete GG setup, for 27mc using a 3a5 for the TX and 1s4 for the regen rx. Still works when I power it. The only reason I'd not fly it is finding batteries. As to wweight it was remarkably light considering. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 15:15:59 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:15:59 -0600 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <0IFD00GQU6QWS8M1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFD00GQU6QWS8M1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <42695B7F.6090803@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >My .02 is sure LCDs are nice, small and expensive but, they even come with a guarentee >that 99.99% of the pixels are good. The rest are well, bad. > > > wipes out handy CRT ^H^H^H LED calculator ... 640x480 * .0001 >A lot of users have noted that getting an LCD with 100% good pixels >is either tough or expensive. > > > = 30 at least :) PS. I don't like LCD calculators as they I find hard to read since often I want to do a quick calc in a semi-dark room like the calculation above. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 15:25:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:25:19 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB Message-ID: <0IFD00MH37DUIEQ6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:20:00 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >The console disk driver is used early on in the boot process >(until enough of OpenVMS has been loaded that it can switch >to its own full-featured driver) and also during crash dumping >(since the console driver is in eprom, it can be relied on not >have become corrupt). > >If any of the files needed during boot end up past the 1.073GB >mark, the system will not boot. Event if the files happen to lie >in accessible places initially, they might be moved by a >subsequent upgrade or disk defragmentation. > >Much, much worse is the behaviour during a crash. If the >crashdump file happens to be beyond the 1.073GB mark, then >anything actually at the wrapped around address is at risk! > >There are ways around this problem, but the only easy one >is to use an RZ26 (1GB disk) as the system disk. That's >not a problem at least for releases up until OpenVMS V7.1. >I stopped getting updates at that point so I don't know >how much bigger VAX releases have become. > >The problem is not such an issue with *BSD since you can >effectively control what lives where. > >The issue affects all VAXstation 3100s, the >MicroVAX 3100 Models 10 and 20 and the early releases >of the MicroVAX 3100 Models 10e and 20e. I believe that >a fix was produced for the 10e and 20e and ROMs dated >after April 1992 are fine. The OpenVMS FAQ has more details. > >So just because it seems to work, does not make it a good idea :-) > I affirm that having tried it. I also have two M76s and both will boot larger but only one has the factory console rom fix. My solution was simple, use a 1gb disk for the system disk, second drive is a nice 2.7gb and that works fine even with 5.4-4h. It's a cheap solution as 1g SCSI drives were easy to find for a while for free. I've found for a system disk 1gb is plenty even for 7.2 and likely later as I can put the page/swap files on the second drive along with user data/files. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 15:27:17 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:27:17 -0400 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) Message-ID: <0IFD00M837H7IVT6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) > From: woodelf > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:29:19 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >>Hi >> Higher quality AM receivers used the two diode tubes. >>One diode was for the detector while the other was >>used for the AGC. That way the loading could be optimized >>for each function. >>Dwight >> >> >I wonder if the quality of AM radio ( not counting the decline in music >taste) >has gone down since every thing uses soild state diodes as compared to tube >diodes. > Sounds like the common AA5 with the 12AV6 (duodiode/triode). Allison From geoffreythomas at onetel.com Fri Apr 22 15:29:53 2005 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.com (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:29:53 +0100 Subject: $10K claimed for Electronics issue References: <6.2.1.2.2.20050422085524.04e7f7b8@mail> <1114184458.19482.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <006a01c5477a$2a501240$0200a8c0@geoff> Only 2 floors in your house then ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 4:40 PM Subject: Re: $10K claimed for Electronics issue > On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 08:56 -0500, John Foust wrote: > > He gave several hundreds of them a home first in his loft, then > > under the floorboards and had not looked at them since. > > Oooh I hadn't thought of that - suddenly I've doubled the potential > storage space that I had ;-) > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 22 15:34:24 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:34:24 +0100 Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB In-Reply-To: <0IFD00MH37DUIEQ6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <002b01c5477a$acfa3c70$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Allison wrote: > I affirm that having tried it. I also have two M76s and both > will boot larger but only one has the factory console rom fix. I don't believe there was ever an official fix for the VS3100-76 (or any of the VS3100 series). If there was, I'd like to know about it so I can upgrade the one on my desk right now! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 15:56:51 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:56:51 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <001701c54765$5b82e0a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001701c54765$5b82e0a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Is this any different to the one I scanned and is > available via Manx. If not, I'd suggest that for penance you > find something that isn't already on there and scan that :-) Fear not. I'll be checking my stack for any pages that are _not_ in that 65MB PDF. -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 15:58:08 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:58:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <200504221959.UAA07066@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > > Stan> MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely > > Stan> original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in > > Stan> my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very > > Stan> interesting... > > > > Have you seen any references to "Sigma" or "Ruta", or an organization > > named "STIMTI"? > > No. A quick scan through the Russian chapter in the book didn't throw > up any references either. > > Incidentally, the SETUN computer used ternary logic using ferrite cores > magnetised in either direction or not magnetized at all to give the > three levels. There can't have been many similar designs. Title, please? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 16:16:41 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:16:41 -0400 Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB Message-ID: <0IFD00M1W9RFIEX6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:34:24 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >Allison wrote: >> I affirm that having tried it. I also have two M76s and both >> will boot larger but only one has the factory console rom fix. > >I don't believe there was ever an official fix for the VS3100-76 >(or any of the VS3100 series). If there was, I'd like to know >about it so I can upgrade the one on my desk right now! It was the first one I'd tried the 2.7g in and crash tested it trying to get IP networking going. Since that one worked I tried same on an older one and it didn't pass the crash test. A crash with the wrong driver is really bad. I assume it was factory as it works fine with a larger disk. However, I got it that way and it's a later SN. If it werent under three other 3100s plus a VS2000 and a TK50 I'd read off the VS3100-76/GPXs SN for you. All my other VS and uVAX 3100s are older and therefor completly complient with the 1GB limit for the boot disk. They also work well with larger secondary disks and I have them configured that way. IE: 500mb or 1GB system disk and larger than 1gb for user disks. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 16:20:30 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LCD monitors (was Re: tube technology and EMP) In-Reply-To: <0IFD00GQU6QWS8M1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFD00GQU6QWS8M1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <56994.207.145.53.202.1114204830.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Allison wrote: > My .02 is sure LCDs are nice, small and expensive but, they even come with > a guarentee that 99.99% of the pixels are good. The rest are well, bad. The rate is better than that. I'm not sure of the manufacturer's spec, but Newegg will accept returns if 8 or more pixels are bad. On a 21" LCD (1600x1200), that is 99.9995% good. In practice, there are not that many bad. The last several Samsung ones I've inspected had no bad pixels at all. > A lot of users have noted that getting an LCD with 100% good pixels > is either tough or expensive. If you buy a name brand LCD, it's likely to cost a bit more and have fewer (or no) bad pixels. A monitor (CRT or LCD) is something I expect to use for quite a few years. I think it's a false economy to try to save money by buying an off brand. I've had an LCD monitor for eight years now. It is a 14" 1024x768, which was VERY expensive back then; now the equivalent can be found for under $250. It had one bad pixel, for which blue was always on. This is *much* more annoying than bad pixels that are stuck off. Generally the threshold for acceptable bad pixels that are stuck on is lower than that for stuck off, or even zero. Anyhow, I've used it a fair bit, and it has never developed any more bad pixels. I've never even heard of that happening. The normal failure mode for an LCD monitor is for one of the fluorescent tubes of the backlight to fail. These can be very expensive to replace as they are usually not common tubes. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Apr 22 16:24:09 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More Auction goodies--More questions In-Reply-To: <426846D8.8010803@theriver.com> References: <426846D8.8010803@theriver.com> Message-ID: <20050422141848.J90030@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005, tom ponsford wrote: > 2 Sony OA-D31V-14 > "Doubleheight " 3-1/4 SS 360K floppy drives. The doubleheight as these 3-1/2" Sony never made any of the 3.25" drives. > are roughly double the height of a regular 3-/14 floppies(but not "full 3.5" > height") I believe these may have been used in older HP's. Isn't that model number one of the ones that ran at 600 RPM? (and would therefore need a 500K data transfer rate to do "360K") > Does naybody know if these are the ones that require a "special" floppy > disks that have to be manually opened, as the drives do not have a > mechanism for opening them??? If you don't have any of the early disks (without shutter), or the middle range ones with the latch and "pinch" corner, you can still remove the shutter completely from one of the later 720K diskettes. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Apr 22 16:36:01 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:36:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LCD monitors (was Re: tube technology and EMP) In-Reply-To: <56994.207.145.53.202.1114204830.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: > The rate is better than that. I'm not sure of the manufacturer's spec, > but Newegg will accept returns if 8 or more pixels are bad. On a 21" > LCD (1600x1200), that is 99.9995% good. In practice, there are not > that many bad. The last several Samsung ones I've inspected had no bad > pixels at all. Come to think of it, it has been a couple of years since I saw a bad pixel on a flatscreen. The last was my old Stinkpad. > I've had an LCD monitor for eight years now. It is a 14" 1024x768, which > was VERY expensive back then; now the equivalent can be found for under > $250. It had one bad pixel, for which blue was always on. This is *much* > more annoying than bad pixels that are stuck off Tiny dab of black paint? > The normal failure mode for an LCD monitor is for one of the fluorescent > tubes of the backlight to fail. These can be very expensive to replace > as they are usually not common tubes. Cure the problem with those Woven fibre optic backplanes. OK, so they are damn expensive as well. I always thought the company that made them should have tried a shirt. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 16:40:35 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:40:35 -0400 Subject: LCD monitors (was Re: tube technology and EMP) Message-ID: <0IFD00M3WAV9IA87@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: LCD monitors (was Re: tube technology and EMP) > From: "Eric Smith" > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> A lot of users have noted that getting an LCD with 100% good pixels >> is either tough or expensive. > >If you buy a name brand LCD, it's likely to cost a bit more and have >fewer (or no) bad pixels. > Funny, went into the local ****usa and looked at several LCD monitors and with care I spotted every one had at least one noticeable pixel bad. The real problem was where I was they'd bring in some cheapo LCD and I'd have to "deal with it" being the IT person as it was "broken". Inshort I'd ahve to contact the vendor and try and get a good one and usually the vendor would refuse as it met the 99.9995 good. Small companies are that way. >The normal failure mode for an LCD monitor is for one of the fluorescent >tubes of the backlight to fail. These can be very expensive to replace >as they are usually not common tubes. That's my main worry. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 17:43:37 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers Message-ID: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> I've been giving some serious thought about breaking out either one of my Apple //'s, C-64's, or maybe even the Amiga 500, as I feel like playing some old games. These days I don't really have the space to set one (or all) up. Then I had an idea on how to save some space. All three of these systems were intended to plug into a monitor that was basically a TV. Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? Alternatively, would an Apple // work with a Commodore 2002 monitor? Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Apr 22 17:59:42 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:59:42 -0400 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <00ee01c5478f$02afac90$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 6:43 PM Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers > > I've been giving some serious thought about breaking out either one of my > Apple //'s, C-64's, or maybe even the Amiga 500, as I feel like playing some > old games. > > These days I don't really have the space to set one (or all) up. Then I had > an idea on how to save some space. All three of these systems were intended > to plug into a monitor that was basically a TV. > > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? > > Alternatively, would an Apple // work with a Commodore 2002 monitor? > > Zane > Closest thing to universal would be a Commodore 1084 monitor with multiple inputs like the one I have (RCA, Analog and Digital) Works with Amiga, C64, and even 80 column C128 mode) From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Apr 22 18:00:24 2005 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:00:24 -0400 Subject: small valves References: <3.0.6.32.20050422080250.00b86c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c5478f$11f19e70$0100a8c0@screamer> I've not been into R/C stuff, but I am into 'submini' tubes. I recently built a 5-tube regenerative receiver for the 49 meter band using 5678's for the 2 stage tuned RF amp, detector, and first audio amp. A 5676 serves as the final audio driver. Performance is awesome, and it runs on batteries. Warm-up time is at most 3 seconds, nearly instant-on operation. These tubes are only about 1 cm in diameter, and perhaps 4 cm long, with wire leads (no pins, no socket needed). This is my fourth tube based radio. A friend was joking that these recreations sould be known as 'bunker buddies' 1 thru 4, as they use no semiconductors at all. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 18:00:30 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:00:30 -0400 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > I've been giving some serious thought about breaking out either one of my > Apple //'s, C-64's, or maybe even the Amiga 500, as I feel like playing some > old games. > > These days I don't really have the space to set one (or all) up. Then I had > an idea on how to save some space. All three of these systems were intended > to plug into a monitor that was basically a TV. > > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? People might think that your next step is to replace your vintage computers with simulators. vax, 9000 > > Alternatively, would an Apple // work with a Commodore 2002 monitor? > > Zane > > From cb at mythtech.net Fri Apr 22 18:06:22 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:06:22 -0400 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers Message-ID: >Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV >converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer >with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? I don't know about that, but for a short while, I was running a C-128 into my PowerMac 6500's composite input and viewing the screen inside the PowerMac. I can't speak for how well this would work long term, as I only did it long enough to test the C-128 (only a few hours over the course of about a week). I got the idea, I thought from this list a number of years ago. -chris From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 18:06:38 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:06:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? Sounds like it should work just fine. > Alternatively, would an Apple // work with a Commodore 2002 monitor? As long as it has composite inputs then it should. I've used 1702 monitors before just fine. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 22 18:23:26 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves Message-ID: <200504222323.QAA06368@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Bob Shannon" > >I've not been into R/C stuff, but I am into 'submini' tubes. > >I recently built a 5-tube regenerative receiver for the 49 meter band using >5678's for the 2 stage tuned RF amp, detector, and first audio amp. A 5676 >serves as the final audio driver. > >Performance is awesome, and it runs on batteries. Warm-up time is at most >3 seconds, nearly instant-on operation. ---snip--- Hi The direct heated cathodes turned on fast enough that one didn't have a noticeable delay. It wasn't until the indirect heated cathodes that things changed. That was because it was too hard to build an AC radio with the directed heated tubes. There was both a hum problem and it was more difficult to get each tube biased correctly. Once they had selenium rectifiers, direct heated became practical for low power applications ( like the Zenith TO's ). They still had to do some tricks to get the biasing working right for each tube. Some clever engineering. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 17:30:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:30:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this crap, aka vacuum state In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Apr 21, 5 09:21:15 pm Message-ID: > Compactrons (at least none that I know of) are not integrated - each > function is pinned out individually. Something like the 6N6G is true > integration - one triode feeds another (they can not be used > individually). Well, is a transistor array -- something like a CA3046 -- an integrated circuit? That's 5 transistors, essentially pinned out separately (IIRC, 2 of them have the emitters commoned). It's always listed as an IC in parts lists, data books, etc, but I guess you don't consider it to be one (if it is, then why is the ECC83 / 12AX7 not?) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 17:55:13 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:55:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Apr 22, 5 01:02:14 am Message-ID: > Second, it's much easier - for me at least - to flip through a PDF than > it is to flip through microfiche. Right now, I don't have a fiche > viewer at home (despite the DEC MDS fiche I now have) so I have to make I'm the reverse. I have a fiche reader here (it meets my criterion of being possible to repair :-)), I have no easy way to 'flip through' pdfs (and I certainly don't feel like downloading them on a 14K4 modem...) I've found that I can tell what the pages on a fiche are -- whether they are text, program source, or diagrams with my naked eye. Very useful to see if a given fiche contains the schematics... > a trip to the library to view it. It's much easier to print out a few > pages of a PDF (or all of it) and bring it with me to look at, than it > is to haul around a microfiche reader... It's a pity standard fiche is larger than 5*4".... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 18:11:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:11:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Apr 22, 5 09:33:50 am Message-ID: > >The most complex common multi-section valve in the UK (i.e. with the most > >sections), is the triple diode triode. It came with a variety of heater > >ratings -- the EABC80 (6.3V heater), UABC80 (100mA series string heater, > >by far the most common version) and the oddball PABC80 (300mA series > >string heater). It turned up in numerous AM/FM radios in the 1960s, where > >it was used for the AM detector (1 diode), FM detector (the other 2 > >diodes) and audio ampifier (triode). > > Hi > Higher quality AM receivers used the two diode tubes. ALmost all UK mains-powered radios did that. We had things like the EBF89 (2 diodes and an RF/IF amplifier pentode), EBC41 (2 diodes and audio triode), EBL31 (2 diodes and a high-slope output pentode), etc. > One diode was for the detector while the other was > used for the AGC. That way the loading could be optimized > for each function. The main reason was to provide a 'delay' (in voltage, not time) for the AGC. But most AM/FM sets didn't bother. They had a total of 3 diodes, 2 for the FM detector, one for the AM detector. I've never seen a quad diode valve (well, OK, I have, it was a double full-wave HT rectifier, but that's not what we want here). And I've never seen a set that switched a diode between the AM AGC and FM detector stages as approriate. Whether there existed sets with, say, an EB91 (double diode, I think you call it a 6AL5) for the FM detector and an EBC91 (say) for the AM dector, AGC, and 1st audio, I don't know, and I am not looking for such a schematic tonight!. When germanium diodes became common in domestic radios, it was, of course, quite common to fit 4 them (or fit 2 for the FM detector, and keep the double-diode triode valve for AM detector, AGC, and 1st audio functions). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 18:14:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:14:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Very much On Topic: Integrated Vacuum Tubes In-Reply-To: <002f01c54762$99f27ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 22, 5 06:42:05 pm Message-ID: > I have a few 500 series plug-ins with nuvistors, and have found them to be FWIW, late versions of the 1A1 (dual-trace 50MHz-ish plugin) have a pair of nuvistors on the output PCB. Old versions, like mine, have those 2, and anothter 2 on each of the range switches for the input amplifer. A total of 6 therefore. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 18:16:43 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:16:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <001701c54765$5b82e0a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Apr 22, 5 07:01:47 pm Message-ID: > > >Boy, that was a short month... I happened to be next to one of my > >caches of DEC prints and lo and behold, the very 11/730-ZA print stack > >I was after. It is about 2 cm thick, and contains mechanical drawings > >of the cable tray, prints for the PSU, TU58, CPU, and memory, > >schematics and PAL equations included. > > > >It being B-sized drawings, I have no easy way to scan these... my > >hardware tops out at 8.5"x14". Suggestions? > > Is this any different to the one I scanned and is > available via Manx. If not, I'd suggest that for penance you > find something that isn't already on there and scan that :-) I didn't think the one om Manx (that you pointed me to the other day) contained the PAL equations. I may have missed them, of course. If they aren't there, and the one mentioned here does contain them, then it's certainly work scanning... However, the PALs in an 11/730 are not protected (the security fuse is intact), and when I had access to a good PAL programmer, I actually desoldered all the PALs in my 11/730 and read them out. So the PAL equations would be trivial to reconstruct given the schematics, which are on Manx. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 18:32:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:32:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <200504222323.QAA06368@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at Apr 22, 5 04:23:26 pm Message-ID: > The direct heated cathodes turned on fast enough that > one didn't have a noticeable delay. It wasn't until the > indirect heated cathodes that things changed. That was > because it was too hard to build an AC radio with the > directed heated tubes. There was both a hum problem > and it was more difficult to get each tube biased correctly. > Once they had selenium rectifiers, direct heated became > practical for low power applications ( like the Zenith TO's ). > They still had to do some tricks to get the biasing > working right for each tube. Some clever engineering. I have a UK battery/mains radio that uses valves throughout (even the PSU rectifier) and directly heated valves in the signal stages. The filaments are in series (carefulyl ordered to get suitable cathode bias voltages), for a total of 7.5V. The batteries were a 7.5V LT and 90V Ht pair. On mains, there is a mains transformer, the output of which is full-wave rectified (EZ40 IIRC). That provides the HT (B+) directly, and the filament supply (A+?) via dropping resistor. One think to be wary about. There is a capacitor across the filament string, after the capacitor. If the filament string is open-circuit for any reason, then that capacitor will charge to about 90V. It normally withstands that (although it's not rated to do so), but if you then replair the filament strign, there's enough energy in that capacitor to burn out one of the filaments. I always make sure that capacitor is discharged before fiddling with the valves. -tony From tlindner at ix.netcom.com Fri Apr 22 18:45:28 2005 From: tlindner at ix.netcom.com (tim lindner) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:45:28 -0700 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1gvfidw.1c7ih561uon8g0M%tlindner@ix.netcom.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? I have a Canopus ADVC100 and have used it with my CoCo, Atari 2600 and Intellivision. It wasn't usable with regard to gaming. The latency was about 0.5 seconds and drove me nuts. :) As a side note, using my ADVC100 with my S-Video modded Atari 2600, the capture looked damn close to an emulator window. -- tim lindner tlindner at ix.netcom.com Bright From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 18:47:39 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 16:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <001701c54765$5b82e0a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> from "Antonio Carlini" at Apr 22, 5 07:01:47 pm Message-ID: <43027.207.145.53.202.1114213659.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > However, the PALs in an 11/730 are not protected (the security fuse is > intact), and when I had access to a good PAL programmer, I actually > desoldered all the PALs in my 11/730 and read them out. So the PAL > equations would be trivial to reconstruct given the schematics, which are > on Manx. There is a DOS executable floating around called JED2EQN that does this for the simple (early) PALs. It was part of the National Semiconductor Opal Jr. package. A version of that is on my PALASM web page, near the bottom. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/mmi/palasm/ Note that I have not run ANY of these binary-only tools, and offer no warranty for them. Caveat emptor! (For that matter, I don't offer any warranty for the Fortran versions, nor for any of the software that I've written.) Eric From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 22 19:12:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves Message-ID: <200504230012.RAA06383@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >One think to be wary about. There is a capacitor across the filament >string, after the capacitor. If the filament string is open-circuit for >any reason, then that capacitor will charge to about 90V. It normally >withstands that (although it's not rated to do so), but if you then >replair the filament strign, there's enough energy in that capacitor to >burn out one of the filaments. I always make sure that capacitor is >discharged before fiddling with the valves. Hi Also a problem in the Zenith TO's. > >-tony > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 19:17:21 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:17:21 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IFD00MS9I4HIFD7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: "Bob Shannon" > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:00:24 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >I've not been into R/C stuff, but I am into 'submini' tubes. > >I recently built a 5-tube regenerative receiver for the 49 meter band using >5678's for the 2 stage tuned RF amp, detector, and first audio amp. A 5676 >serves as the final audio driver. Can you send me a schematic you used? I must have 20 of those, as well as 1AD4 and 5672s. I was forturnate that someone gave me a bunch of them and I've found them fun to play with. I've done a single tube regen (160m) with it and stuffed in a small tin. I run it on an AA cell and three 9v batteries. >This is my fourth tube based radio. A friend was joking that these >recreations sould be known as 'bunker buddies' 1 thru 4, as they >use no semiconductors at all. > ;) I have several tube sets I've built as a result of parts being avaiable. They are interesting to me. I started my career with tube, hybrid and full solid state commercial two way (VHF/UHF) equipment so this is retro for me. A different challenge than solid state, fun none the less. Allison KB1GMX From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 19:22:20 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:22:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions Message-ID: <200504230022.j3N0MKpq023580@onyx.spiritone.com> It's been a *LONG* time since I had any of my Apple //'s running. I've got the following: Apple //+ 2 or 3 Apple //e's some Apple //c's, including 2 of the little greenscreen monitors 2 Apple //gs's (one has a SCSI adapter) I've also got various floppy drives. What I'm not sure of is the state of my software. Currently all of my 5.25" Apple // software is on loan to a friend (I don't have much, it's only one small box). I've got a bunch if //gs software, but I'm not sure where. I also have a Powerbook 520c that I can use to read and write 3.5" ProDOS floppies. I think I can also use it to make new System 6 floppies if I can't find the ones I have. I'm trying to figure out what on earth I should setup. My real goal is to run the following game, on real hardware: http://www.iosphere.net/%7eeric/wizardry/weeping_snows.htm I'm guessing my best bet, from a space related point of view is to use one of the //c's and the small monitor that goes with it. The question then becomes, how on earth does one write emulator images back to real 5.25" floppies these days? I'm guessing my best bet might be to setup a //gs long enough to write the floppies. ISTR, there is a program to transfer them over a serial line, but you need a boot floppy for the Apple // to start the process (as well as a Super Serial card, which I believe is built into a //c). Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 19:25:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:25:22 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IFD004WBIHVCQA4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:32:48 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I have a UK battery/mains radio that uses valves throughout (even the PSU >rectifier) and directly heated valves in the signal stages. The filaments >are in series (carefulyl ordered to get suitable cathode bias voltages), >for a total of 7.5V. The batteries were a 7.5V LT and 90V Ht pair. On >mains, there is a mains transformer, the output of which is full-wave >rectified (EZ40 IIRC). That provides the HT (B+) directly, and the >filament supply (A+?) via dropping resistor. > I have an RCA AM broadcast Battery/mains radio that I still use. Works well. The multivoltage battery though bad supplied the authentic looking cover for a box I'd made using uses NiCds to run a switchmode supply to provide the A,B and C voltages required. Runs for hours on that too. Allison Kb1gmx From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 19:28:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: <200504230022.j3N0MKpq023580@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > It's been a *LONG* time since I had any of my Apple //'s running. I've got > the following: > > Apple //+ > 2 or 3 Apple //e's > some Apple //c's, including 2 of the little greenscreen monitors > 2 Apple //gs's (one has a SCSI adapter) > > I've also got various floppy drives. > > What I'm not sure of is the state of my software. Currently all of my 5.25" > Apple // software is on loan to a friend (I don't have much, it's only one > small box). I've got a bunch if //gs software, but I'm not sure where. I > also have a Powerbook 520c that I can use to read and write 3.5" ProDOS > floppies. I think I can also use it to make new System 6 floppies if I > can't find the ones I have. > > I'm trying to figure out what on earth I should setup. My real goal is to > run the following game, on real hardware: > http://www.iosphere.net/%7eeric/wizardry/weeping_snows.htm > > I'm guessing my best bet, from a space related point of view is to use one > of the //c's and the small monitor that goes with it. The Apple //gs has backward compatibility with all the previous Apple ][ models and takes up the same footprint of the Apple //c, plus it's just the nicest system to have hooked up out of all three. You can play all the old stuff and all the new (GS-specific) stuff. > The question then > becomes, how on earth does one write emulator images back to real 5.25" > floppies these days? I'm guessing my best bet might be to setup a //gs long > enough to write the floppies. ISTR, there is a program to transfer them > over a serial line, but you need a boot floppy for the Apple // to start the > process (as well as a Super Serial card, which I believe is built into a > //c). Look for Apple Disk Transfer or ADT. There are DOS and Windows versions. Very nice software. Transfers via serial port to/from Apple ][ (disk image from Apple to PC or disk image from PC to Apple disk). The //gs has a built-in serial port. The //c does also but depending on what revision you have it may be buggy (can't go over a certain baud rate). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 19:34:31 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: from "9000 VAX" at Apr 22, 2005 07:00:30 PM Message-ID: <200504230034.j3N0YVF7023762@onyx.spiritone.com> > People might think that your next step is to replace your vintage > computers with simulators. Trust me, I gave that some serious thought. I'm not about to give up the space that my PDP-11's take at home with 8-bit micro's, and I'm seriously short on space for more HW. The odds are I'll use real monitors, I'm just exploring my options. Realistically this is most practical if I decide to setup one of my //gs's, except I think they prefer a different type monitor. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 19:36:24 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 17:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Apr 22, 2005 07:06:22 PM Message-ID: <200504230036.j3N0aOGH023781@onyx.spiritone.com> > >Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > >converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > >with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? > > I don't know about that, but for a short while, I was running a C-128 > into my PowerMac 6500's composite input and viewing the screen inside the > PowerMac. I can't speak for how well this would work long term, as I only > did it long enough to test the C-128 (only a few hours over the course of > about a week). > > I got the idea, I thought from this list a number of years ago. > > -chris I've done this briefly with my PowerMac 8500 back around 1997, which was where I came up with the idea. The 8500 has the advantage of being able to handle both NTSC and PAL signals (not sure what other Mac's succh as yours can handle). Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 19:38:10 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:38:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 5 03:43:37 pm Message-ID: > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? I can see no good reason why it wouldn't work (I assume said software displays the incoming video essentially in real time). But a well-known phrase involving sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 19:43:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:43:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: <43027.207.145.53.202.1114213659.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 22, 5 04:47:39 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > > However, the PALs in an 11/730 are not protected (the security fuse is > > intact), and when I had access to a good PAL programmer, I actually > > desoldered all the PALs in my 11/730 and read them out. So the PAL > > equations would be trivial to reconstruct given the schematics, which are > > on Manx. > > There is a DOS executable floating around called JED2EQN that does this > for the simple (early) PALs. It was part of the National Semiconductor Sure, I have it somewhere. It came with the (binary-only) software for the Elektor GAL programmer. There was also a simple PAL/GAL assembler, a PAL-to-GAL translator, etc. I think it was a version of Opal-jr >From what I remmeber, the main bug (maybe in the docs, they were not at all clear) was that it wouldn't take a label file to name the pins. It insisted on calling them I1, I2, etc for the inputs, O1, O2, etc for the outputs. This was trivially got round by running the output of JED2EQN through sed on a linux box with the appropriate script to replaec I1 with its name, etc. I can;t rememebr if I ever ran the 11/730 PALs through this. I was certainly going to, but I may have been waiting for schematics to get the signal names. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 22 19:49:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:49:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <0IFD004WBIHVCQA4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 22, 5 08:25:22 pm Message-ID: > I have an RCA AM broadcast Battery/mains radio that I still use. > Works well. The multivoltage battery though bad supplied the > authentic looking cover for a box I'd made using uses NiCds > to run a switchmode supply to provide the A,B and C voltages > required. Runs for hours on that too. I'm suprised it needs a separate C supply. UK sets all used self-bias by this time, I think. C (grid bias) batteries were not used for radios much after the 1930 in the UK. I have a working Vidor AM/FM valve portable (!). OK, it cheats in that it uses a few germanium diodes in the detector stage, but there are no transistors. It's battery-only (officially), 1.5V LT, 90V HT. It's not much larger than many of the transistorised AM/FM portables that came out a few years later either. The batteriers are long-since unobtainable (at least not easily). I run it from the mains. The LT is triival to get from my bench aupply. For HT, I've made a little PSU from common components that gives about 85V (high enough for the set to work well). It's just a 30V transformer feeding a voltage doubler circuit. Much easier to get a 30V transformer than something of a higher voltage now. I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get 90V from low-voltage batteries. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 20:07:34 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Apr 22, 2005 05:28:09 PM Message-ID: <200504230107.j3N17YDL024305@onyx.spiritone.com> > The Apple //gs has backward compatibility with all the previous Apple ][ > models and takes up the same footprint of the Apple //c, plus it's just > the nicest system to have hooked up out of all three. You can play all > the old stuff and all the new (GS-specific) stuff. I'd not realized it was the same footprint. In that case, this probably is the best way for me to go. Plus I think I can easily get to at least one of my //gs's. The doc's, and the box of stuff for it will no doubt be more interesting... > Look for Apple Disk Transfer or ADT. There are DOS and Windows versions. > Very nice software. Transfers via serial port to/from Apple ][ (disk > image from Apple to PC or disk image from PC to Apple disk). The //gs has > a built-in serial port. The //c does also but depending on what revision > you have it may be buggy (can't go over a certain baud rate). Thanks! That's what I was thinking of. Though I used a Mac version to transfer files between my SE/30 and //e. Is there a //gs program to do this? It would be easier to write disks with the emulator images on my PowerBook 520c, and then use the //gs to write them to 5.25" floppies. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 20:10:30 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:10:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Apr 23, 2005 01:38:10 AM Message-ID: <200504230110.j3N1AU9A024388@onyx.spiritone.com> > I can see no good reason why it wouldn't work (I assume said software > displays the incoming video essentially in real time). Depending on the computer and software used, it does. > But a well-known phrase involving sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind. > > -tony Hmmm, sounds like a phrase that might apply to me, but I'm not familiar with it. I own a copy of the book "Tools and Their Uses" and have managed to avoid ever reading it :^) Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Apr 22 20:16:12 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 5 03:43:37 pm Message-ID: <50065.207.145.53.202.1114218972.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > But a well-known phrase involving sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind. Never let nuts use sledgehammers; they can wreak all sorts of havoc. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 20:39:01 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:39:01 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050422203901.484e5eb7.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:02:14 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Tom Jennings declared on Thursday 21 April 2005 11:41 pm: > > Sheesh, why is everyone treating fiche as a horrible thing? Like > > it's some terrible, embarrassing obsolete medium that needs to be > > converted out of as quickly as possible? > > > Yeah, but there's at least two problems with it. > > One, it's really hard to make fiche available to other people without > scanning or giving out the original, and loaning out fiche is > potentially risky and a pain in the ass to track. Paper docs have > similar problems, but it's easier to duplicate paper than microfiche, > unless you can find a cheap microfiche -> paper duplicator. > Actually, when I worked at a COM shop, I tried duplicating some Tektronix Scope manuals that I had on fiche. Generally fiche are 'shot' to silver film, which has less stability, but then 'published' to diazo media which is very stable and long-lived. What I did was take the diazo 'duplicates' that I bought from Tektronix, and laid them emulsion-to-emulsion on the diazo fiche 'duplicator' that every COM shop used to have, and which are probably still in production. It produced nice and quite readable duplicates. Not as good as the original, but very legible. If we want to 'make the information widely available' one approach would be to find a micrografix shop somewhere still in operation and have duplicate sets made. Back in the days of mainstream COM duplicate fiche cost under a few cents apiece to produce. The cost for hand-placed dupes would probably be higher, but the material cost for high quality diazo media on polyester is fairly inexpensive. Another alternative would be to make silver-film dupes, which would simply involve contact printing from fiche to 105mm silver film. That wouldn't require much 'equipment' at all that is any more specialized than a darkroom and a contact print frame. Granted, these approaches still leaves people with fiche to strain their eyes over, but it's a VERY viable solution and single or limited-source technical archives could VERY easily be widely duplicated by this means. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 20:41:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:41:53 -0500 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <20050421213736.J1279@localhost> <200504220102.14487.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050422204153.76b49dc6.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:02:14 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Second, it's much easier - for me at least - to flip through a PDF > than it is to flip through microfiche. Right now, I don't have a > fiche viewer at home (despite the DEC MDS fiche I now have) so I have > to make a trip to the library to view it. It's much easier to print > out a few pages of a PDF (or all of it) and bring it with me to look > at, than it is to haul around a microfiche reader... > I picked up a portable microfiche viewer at auction last summer. it's about the size of a thick loose-leaf notebook cover, though heavier. (also got about 25 years of a half dozen popular magazines on fiche in the same lot at that auction, all for $5 including the reader) There are VERY portable fiche readers in existence. And conventional readers sell for fairly low prices on eBay. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 20:55:53 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:55:53 -0500 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <200504220125.44455.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200504220125.44455.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050422205553.1ac0d807.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:25:44 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Michael Sokolov declared on Thursday 21 April 2005 06:39 pm: > > (Are there any 3-button sans-wheel USB mice?) > > I'd skip USB all-together, and just use a serial or PS/2 interface > mouse. > Further, if he wants to stay away from 'PC Clone-ness' in his design, there are some pretty decent 3-button PS/2-interface mice from SGI. The O2 workstation uses these. From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 21:08:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:08:42 -0500 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20050422210842.40c968fe.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Apr 05 05:10:44 GMT msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Do you need audio at all? > > No. Audio does not belong in X and I actually never even suspected > that there was an audio extension for X until I heard people on this > list complain that Classic X terminals don't have it. Spoiled kids! > :-) > I remember that when the hype about 'Broadway' was coming out of the X Consortium, which was right before the X Consortium closed shop, that an audio layer was one of the things being hyped. I remember reading about it in a 'Broadway' article in that old X Window magazine, probably in the last, or one of the last, issues that came out. From cb at mythtech.net Fri Apr 22 21:07:59 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:07:59 -0400 Subject: Apple // Questions Message-ID: >I'd not realized it was the same footprint. In that case, this probably is >the best way for me to go. Plus I think I can easily get to at least one of >my //gs's. The doc's, and the box of stuff for it will no doubt be more >interesting... It isn't *exactly* the same footprint. The IIgs takes up the same amount of space for the computer as the IIc does. However, with the IIc you get the floppy drive and keyboard in that same space. The IIgs has external floppy and keyboard. Personally, I prefer the external keyboard anyway, as it gives more flexability to where the computer itself goes. -chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Apr 22 21:08:25 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <20050422205553.1ac0d807.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 22, 2005 08:55:53 PM Message-ID: <200504230208.j3N28Qjn025250@onyx.spiritone.com> > Further, if he wants to stay away from 'PC Clone-ness' in his design, > there are some pretty decent 3-button PS/2-interface mice from SGI. > The O2 workstation uses these. I'm assuming that you're talking about the classic 3-button Logitech mouse? It's my favorite mouse hands down, as it is the one that fits my hand the best. My second favorite, the Apple ADB Mouse II, has one slight problem, it only has one button :^) The classic 3-button Logitech mouse was also used heavily by IBM, both on RS/6000's and PC's, by DEC (I'm assuming on both Alpha's and PC's), as mentioned on SGI's, and I'm sure by others. I'm simply mentioning the companies I own rebadged mice from. The Keyboard for the SGI O2 is also worth mentioning, it's hands down the nicest of the the PS/2 keyboards I own. Zane From chenmel at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 21:11:13 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:11:13 -0500 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <20050422211113.7ab7c0bc.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:38:52 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Michael wrote: > > No. Audio does not belong in X > > I think you're going to find a lot of people disagree with that. > X is supposed to provide network transparency for the user interface, > and audio is part of the user interface. > > It may well be the case that audio doesn't conveniently fit into the > X protocol, but that's due to short-sightedness, not because it > doesn't conceptually belong there. > > If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be > handled by X as well. > Well, what about the fact that *my* user interface sometimes includes the whine and rattle of the fixed disk (helps you know if a data-I/O intensive program is actually live, or if something has siezed up). Does that mean that X needs to include hard drive noise? From cb at mythtech.net Fri Apr 22 21:13:33 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:13:33 -0400 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers Message-ID: >I've done this briefly with my PowerMac 8500 back around 1997, which was >where I came up with the idea. The 8500 has the advantage of being able to >handle both NTSC and PAL signals (not sure what other Mac's succh as yours >can handle). The 6500 also did NTSC and PAL. Apple really only made one video input setup, they just packaged it onto different cards for the different machines. Actually, I used to use my 6500 to convert PAL videos to NTSC. I used a PAL VCR to feed the signal into the PowerMac, then played the video in full screen mode, and connected its NTSC output to another VCR. It worked quite well actually, and had the nice side effect of bypassing macrovision as well (the 6500 acted as a TBC since its NTSC output wasn't really outputting the source video, but rather an image of the computer desktop that just happened to have the source video playing in full screen). -chris From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 21:56:03 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: <200504230107.j3N17YDL024305@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is there a //gs program to do this? It would be easier to write disks with > the emulator images on my PowerBook 520c, and then use the //gs to write > them to 5.25" floppies. ADT works on any Apple ][ system. It's the Mac side I believe you were thinking of. I don't know of a Mac version of the counterpart software to ADT. The counterpart only comes in DOS or Windows versions. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 21:57:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:57:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <50065.207.145.53.202.1114218972.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony wrote: > > But a well-known phrase involving sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind. > > Never let nuts use sledgehammers; they can wreak all sorts of havoc. And never use a sledgehammer on your nuts; that would certainly wreak all sorts of havoc (and pain). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 22 22:03:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:03:18 -0400 Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <0IFD00JZMPT18AC9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: small valves > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:49:12 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> I have an RCA AM broadcast Battery/mains radio that I still use. >> Works well. The multivoltage battery though bad supplied the >> authentic looking cover for a box I'd made using uses NiCds >> to run a switchmode supply to provide the A,B and C voltages >> required. Runs for hours on that too. > >I'm suprised it needs a separate C supply. UK sets all used self-bias by >this time, I think. C (grid bias) batteries were not used for radios much >after the 1930 in the UK. Myself as well. The design of this radio is early 50s. I have a similar circuits from the 1960 RCA tube manual that require only A and B(HT) voltages. However this radio had a battery based on destructive examination and markings that provided 7.5V, 1.5V and 90V. So the likely case is "C" voltage or as yet unexamined posibility, a seperate heater supply for the audio output tube. Either way I implmented the power supply to provide the voltages as the battery did only from a switchmode controller and a few NiCds as they are rechargeable. I then package it and wrapped the old printed cardboard around it for realism. I might add the radio is 10" wide, 7" high and about 4" deep and as AM(MW) goes sounds decent. >The batteriers are long-since unobtainable (at least not easily). I run it >from the mains. The LT is triival to get from my bench aupply. For HT, >I've made a little PSU from common components that gives about 85V (high >enough for the set to work well). It's just a 30V transformer feeding a >voltage doubler circuit. Much easier to get a 30V transformer than >something of a higher voltage now. Sound way to go. One of the homebrew designs uses a 45V transformer out of an old printer with a doubler to 110V HT and a seperate one for the 12.6V heaters. >I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get >90V from low-voltage batteries. Unfamiliar, Elektor is not seen here in USA. Back OT: Anywho valves(tubes) left the computing realm early due to size, cooling and power. The side effects were that physically small circuits for computing were hard to achieve. It also limited speed due to the amount of interconnect wiring required to get signals routed. As to rad hard, there are really two different but related problems for the engineer. One is EMF the other is ionization from high energy particles. EMP as commonly seen is lightning, a high energy pulse that causes a very fast rise and fall time magnetic field and any wires in that field recieve an induced voltages and currents. If the devices are rugged enough they survive. Tubes often qualify there, solidstate devices are often less rugged and are more likely to fail. EMP is also associated with a atomic detonation, the same magnetic effects. The other problem of high energy particles such as Beta and Gamma rays can be from relatively low energy sources and are found in the Van Allen Belt (orbital space), Space itself due to solar activity and around unshielded nuclear materials. The problems associated with radiation is ionization. In semicunductors unwanted ionization will effectively short the device by creating leakage paths in the device (ICs are more susceptable than raw transistors) and also creating small control voltages at active nodes such as the base or gate of a transistor or by depleting or creating a charge where capacitive node are used (DRAMS and microprocessors that use dynamic logic). Device that have high thresholds such as CMOS and tubes are more resistant than TTL and Nmos. It also follows that static logic built with high threshold devices tends to be more resistant. Examples of devices used in EMP risk and environments with high radiation are Tubes, core memory, CMOS micros like 1802, 80C85, 80C188, ARM in CMOS. Core is actually EMP hard and RAD hard due to the closed magnetic nature of each of those thousands of little rings though the surrounding logic has to be handled as a seperate system issue as it's often built with ICs that need protection. The common need for proven RAD (radiation) hard and EMP hard is satelites as they are exposed to radiation and EMP from a variety of sources noteably including the sun. Many Sats have been killed by EMP and/or RAD from solar storms. Allison Kb1gmx From vcf at siconic.com Fri Apr 22 22:02:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 20:02:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, chris wrote: > >I'd not realized it was the same footprint. In that case, this probably is > >the best way for me to go. Plus I think I can easily get to at least one of > >my //gs's. The doc's, and the box of stuff for it will no doubt be more > >interesting... > > It isn't *exactly* the same footprint. > > The IIgs takes up the same amount of space for the computer as the IIc > does. However, with the IIc you get the floppy drive and keyboard in that > same space. The IIgs has external floppy and keyboard. Ok, but you can always put the drives on top of the //gs, or get an internal hard drive (like one of mine :) There are now CF adapters and IDE interfaces available for the Apple ][. You can always get one of the IDE interfaces and install an internal HD for relatively cheap (I don't think either interface is over $100). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 22:22:08 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 23:22:08 -0400 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <43027.207.145.53.202.1114213659.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can;t rememebr if I ever ran the 11/730 PALs through this. I was > certainly going to, but I may have been waiting for schematics to get the > signal names. Then the dream of re-creating an 11/730 on an FPGA chip can be realized easily. vax, 9000 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 22:49:29 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:49:29 -0600 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <0IFD00MS9I4HIFD7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFD00MS9I4HIFD7@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4269C5C9.7020104@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: >>Subject: Re: small valves >> From: "Bob Shannon" >> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:00:24 -0400 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >>I've not been into R/C stuff, but I am into 'submini' tubes. >> >>I recently built a 5-tube regenerative receiver for the 49 meter band using >>5678's for the 2 stage tuned RF amp, detector, and first audio amp. A 5676 >>serves as the final audio driver. >> >> > >Can you send me a schematic you used? I must have 20 of those, as well >as 1AD4 and 5672s. I was forturnate that someone gave me a bunch of them >and I've found them fun to play with. I've done a single tube regen (160m) >with it and stuffed in a small tin. I run it on an AA cell and three >9v batteries. > > I'll take a schematic too... got any for the BC band? From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 22 23:03:40 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <4269508F.6010005@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200504221633.JAA06180@clulw009.amd.com> <4269508F.6010005@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050422205613.W1279@localhost> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > I wonder if the quality of AM radio ( not counting the decline in music > taste) > has gone down since every thing uses soild state diodes as compared to tube > diodes. No. Narrow IFs and lack of design attention due to declining worthwhile content on AM (plus novelty of FM in the '60s) and other factors all conspired to make it sound crappy. Preferring the sound of tube audio is fine; insisting it's "superior" puts you with the tinfoil hat crowd. You can simulate a tube diode with a silicon diode, a battery to remove some of the .7v quantum bias, a huge series resistor a huge parallel resistor and a bunch of capacitance everywhere to everywhere. Don't forget inductances at VHF. Toss in 5 watts for heat and shot noise. They suck. A circuit designed to work with them does a great job. Ditto solid state, minus the resistors, capacitors inductors and heat. From tomj at wps.com Fri Apr 22 23:07:01 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <000d01c5478f$11f19e70$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <3.0.6.32.20050422080250.00b86c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <000d01c5478f$11f19e70$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: <20050422210607.V1279@localhost> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Shannon wrote: > I recently built a 5-tube regenerative receiver for the 49 meter band using > 5678's for the 2 stage tuned RF amp, detector, and first audio amp. A 5676 > serves as the final audio driver. Cool! I love subminis! I've collected a bunch of tubes and stuff (sockets and various). Care to post yr schematic and any photos? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 23:06:21 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:06:21 -0600 Subject: VAX-11/730 In-Reply-To: References: <43027.207.145.53.202.1114213659.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <4269C9BD.2050407@jetnet.ab.ca> 9000 VAX wrote: >On 4/22/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>I can;t rememebr if I ever ran the 11/730 PALs through this. I was >>certainly going to, but I may have been waiting for schematics to get the >>signal names. >> >> > >Then the dream of re-creating an 11/730 on an FPGA chip can be realized easily. > >vax, 9000 > > Then maybie not ... The problem with FPGA's is pin out. I guess 25% of pins on large fpga are need for power and ground. I hope you can manage to have ample pins on a resonable packaged chip since more I see of big iron I see lots of I/O connections from the cpu to other logic. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Apr 22 23:09:03 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:09:03 -0600 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4269CA5F.4050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: >The batteriers are long-since unobtainable (at least not easily). I run it >from the mains. The LT is triival to get from my bench aupply. For HT, >I've made a little PSU from common components that gives about 85V (high >enough for the set to work well). It's just a 30V transformer feeding a >voltage doubler circuit. Much easier to get a 30V transformer than >something of a higher voltage now. > >I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get >90V from low-voltage batteries. > > > Also with the low cost of power fets a simple zener diode voltage regulator is peanuts in cost to do. The only catch is the case is HT in. With a simple one or two tube set some 5 watt zener diodes might work better. >-tony > > From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 23 00:03:03 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:03:03 -0500 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: References: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20050423000303.527c47a9.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 09:34:46 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Friday 22 April 2005 10:24, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from > > > > CNET): http://tinyurl.com/9e6le > > > > > > Yes...recycling...bad thing...wouldn't want that... > > > > I wouldn't be so upset if I couldn't see a Sun E5x00/6x00 rack > > sitting there in the forground, a system that's probably still worth > > >$1k, or > > at least a few hundred $$, and still a fairly desirable system. I > > don't mind them recycling stuff that can't be resold to other people > > for use, but when you start pitching perfectly sellable machines to > > the shredder, perhaps you need to rethink your methods... > > So find that place and offer them money for the stuff before they > shred it. > I've been around said operations before. Often you have to be a bonded employee to even see what's on the floor. And you'll NEVER be allowed to take anything off the floor in anything bigger than granular size. They sign NDA's with the places that ship them the gear, therefore the machines don't need to be 'decomissioned' or the data wiped because a secured, bonded disposal site is guaranteed to destroy it. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 23 00:05:46 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:05:46 -0500 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221535.j3MFZJeC099100@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504221535.j3MFZJeC099100@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20050423000546.24df73ca.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:36:18 -0400 "Computer Collector Newsletter" wrote: > I think that machine is where "The HP Way" went. > Unfortunately, it's not where Carly.... oh, nevermind.... From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 00:44:02 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 22:44:02 -0700 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <000d01c5478f$11f19e70$0100a8c0@screamer> References: <3.0.6.32.20050422080250.00b86c00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <000d01c5478f$11f19e70$0100a8c0@screamer> Message-ID: I am interested in a schematic, too. I think I have some of those small wire lead tubes left. They are quite interesting. It would be fun to do something with them. I like radios but to keep this a little on topic are there any analog computer designs that could be built with a small batch of small tubes? > I recently built a 5-tube regenerative receiver for the 49 meter band using > 5678's for the 2 stage tuned RF amp, detector, and first audio amp. A 5676 > serves as the final audio driver. > > Performance is awesome, and it runs on batteries. Warm-up time is at most > 3 seconds, nearly instant-on operation. > > These tubes are only about 1 cm in diameter, and perhaps 4 cm long, with > wire leads (no pins, no socket needed). > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Apr 21 16:54:47 2005 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:54:47 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42682127.9070201@gifford.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: > Certainly, multifunction tubes were around - the first ones were the dual > diodes and rectifiers of the 1920s, then later twin triodes, extra diodes, > and yes, to the ultimate Compactrons. I've just remembered that Magic Eye valves/tubes have (I think) an amplifying triode in the same envelope as the indicator. And I think they're internally linked together. Does anyone have any data on these gadgets that would show this sort of information? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 22 00:47:45 2005 From: cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com (Curt Nelson) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 22:47:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free 9-track tapes Message-ID: <20050422054745.83597.qmail@web52910.mail.yahoo.com> I have a box of 9-track tapes (total weight is 65 lbs) from that I no longer need. - 27 x 2400' 3M Black Watch No.700 6250 CPI - 1 x 1200' Scotch 700 6250 CPI - 3 x 1200' Graham Magnetics Epoch 480 - 2 x write-enable rings The whole lot is available for free if you pay for the shipping (or pick them up in Albuquerque). I would prefer to send all the tapes at once rather than sending single tapes to people. If you are interested, please contact me at cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com. If no one is interested, they are going in the media disposal box at work. By the way, I read the entire set twice using different tape drives (both were Sun-labelled HP 88780 drives). A byte-for-byte comparison showed not a single changed bit for the sets (>1 Gbyte of data)that were read 5 years apart. I found that somewhat amazing for tapes that are at least 15 years old and have not been in special storage. Maybe writing the data at only 1600 bpi made them more reliable (originally written by a Masscomp UNIX system using a Cipher F880 tape drive). __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site! http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/ From bv at norbionics.com Fri Apr 22 04:30:34 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:30:34 +0200 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <33166.64.169.63.74.1114148611.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0504220502.AA12706@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33166.64.169.63.74.1114148611.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:43:31 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: > > I'm not sure exactly what (if any) relationship there is between the > current x.org and the original X Consortium, but it's my understanding > that the latter has been defunct since not long after the release of > "Broadway". I think it may have merged into the XFree86 organization. > > Most Linux distributions now use the x.org branch rather than XFree86. > Debian is a notable counterexample, though it is expected that they > will switch after they release Sarge. > I got the first details of the X problems when I looked into the early Dragonfly BSD development. They went for x.org because XFree86 was effectively dead at that time. X.org had the support of some of the original X team, so it looked like a good idea. -- Bj?rn From bv at norbionics.com Fri Apr 22 04:30:34 2005 From: bv at norbionics.com (=?utf-8?Q?Bj=C3=B8rn_Vermo?=) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 11:30:34 +0200 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <33166.64.169.63.74.1114148611.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0504220502.AA12706@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33166.64.169.63.74.1114148611.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:43:31 +0200, Eric Smith wrote: > > I'm not sure exactly what (if any) relationship there is between the > current x.org and the original X Consortium, but it's my understanding > that the latter has been defunct since not long after the release of > "Broadway". I think it may have merged into the XFree86 organization. > > Most Linux distributions now use the x.org branch rather than XFree86. > Debian is a notable counterexample, though it is expected that they > will switch after they release Sarge. > I got the first details of the X problems when I looked into the early Dragonfly BSD development. They went for x.org because XFree86 was effectively dead at that time. X.org had the support of some of the original X team, so it looked like a good idea. -- Bj?rn From steerex at mindspring.com Fri Apr 22 07:52:07 2005 From: steerex at mindspring.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 12:52:07 -0000 Subject: classiccmp knowledgebase References: <003e01c546da$bf35b4f0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4253EA62.F7A49E4E@mindspring.com> Jay, Actually... I was thinking about doing this anyway ;-) I have a fair amount of HP documentaion, code samples, etc... that could be used in the KB and would prefer not to completely reinvent the wheel. If we could legally incorporate some of those works, we'd have a much more accurate and professional KB. Does anyone know what HP's position is concerning reproduction of documentation (circa early 1990's) ? I see some of the earlier stuff (70's - 80's) on Al's site and assume that HP is OK with reproducing that stuff. I just don't want to run into problems with newer docs. QUESTIONS FOR JAY: I have a couple of quetions about implementation. I can see a subject like HPIB branching into a lot of other areas like a technical description of the protocol, tutorials, drivers, code snippets, bus analyzers, instrumentation, GPIB for Linux, etc... I think those things absolutely should be included in the works. How do we tie all those things together within the KB? Can you include graphics and hyperlinks in the KB? Or do we create a web site of HPIB thingy's and provide links from the KB? How does the author of the KB article "maintain" the KB? See ya, SteveRob > So, who wants to spearhead putting in a short knowledgebase article about > hooking HP-IB devices, given the recent discussion :> > > Jay West From pt at new.rr.com Fri Apr 22 07:55:49 2005 From: pt at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 07:55:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: VAXstation 3100/76 SCSI disk over 1GB In-Reply-To: References: <12b.5b9cc058.2f99d3a7@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have not owned a 3100, so anyone who knows more feel free to chime > in, but as I understand it, one should put a 1GB disk as DUA0: on a > 3100, but one may put larger disks on as data disks, since VMS will > not attempt to write to them when it's going down hard. > My understanding is that you can use over 1GB for system if critical files needed during boot end up below the 1GB limit so that the firmware can address them. You will also need to turn off crash dumps with the appropriate sysgen parameter or always be sure your SYSDUMP.DMP or PAGEFILE.SYS that you dump to maps completely under 1GB. Probably most folks running a VAX aren't planning to log a support call for their crash dumps anyway.... I've had a 9 and 18 GB disk on my 3100 and once VMS is running all is fine. From evan947 at yahoo.com Fri Apr 22 12:13:31 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:13:31 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504221712.j3MHC5vk001320@dewey.classiccmp.org> I just heard back from a contact in HP's corporate archives. She assured me that the recyclers are told to look out for anything that's really old, and to send it to her. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli Sent: Friday, April 22, 2005 12:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Better have a strong stomach for this... > I'm sure you realize that my heartbreak here isn't anti-recycling, > just fear that something with historic significant might wind up in the shredder. Yes, I know, but it is bound to happen. We can't save it all... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From korpela at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 12:37:34 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 10:37:34 -0700 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: On 4/20/05, Andrew Jones wrote: > I've never heard of the store selling it, I've never heard of the > company manufacturing it, but there you have it. A new-old-stock > eight-bit ISA SCSI card. > > Does anyone think this is on the level? I've never known Weird Stuff to falsly advertise. Future Domain was one of the earlier providers of SCSI cards for IBM compatibles. Their cards also shipped with some SCSI CD-ROM drives. There is one major thing to be beware of, though. THE FUTURE DOMAIN 25pin SCSI IS A DIFFERENT PINOUT THAN THE MAC 25pin SCSI!!!! To make matters worse, Future Domain made cards with both pinouts. Once the Mac pinout became popular Future Domain started putting stickers saying "Future Domain" near the 25 pin connectors on their cards. Earlier cards don't have these, so a DVM is your best bet to know whether you have an early Future Domain card with the Future Domain pinout or a later card with the Mac pinout. Eric From nick at computer-history.org Fri Apr 22 18:25:36 2005 From: nick at computer-history.org (computer-history.org) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:25:36 -0500 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <003201c54792$9708a290$7a00a8c0@Millers> > I've been giving some serious thought about breaking out either one of my > Apple //'s, C-64's, or maybe even the Amiga 500, as I feel like playing > some > old games. > > These days I don't really have the space to set one (or all) up. Then I > had > an idea on how to save some space. All three of these systems were > intended > to plug into a monitor that was basically a TV. > > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? > > Alternatively, would an Apple // work with a Commodore 2002 monitor? > > Zane > > Here's what happens when you have too much time on your hands to implement the "crazy" ideas. http://www.computer-history.org/Vintage-Gaming-System-1.0.htm I've swapped out several of the systems and rearranged it a bit since the photo was taken but it's still a quick way to get a vintage computing fix. Nick From fernande at internet1.net Sat Apr 23 02:10:21 2005 From: fernande at internet1.net (C Fernandez) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 03:10:21 -0400 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) In-Reply-To: References: <42669229.8000504@bsu.edu> Message-ID: <4269F4DD.6070208@internet1.net> Mine is the standard high density 50 pin arrangement. Although, it's not an ISA card, either. It's a Microchannel card. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric J Korpela wrote: > There is one major thing to be beware of, though. THE FUTURE DOMAIN > 25pin SCSI IS A DIFFERENT PINOUT THAN THE MAC 25pin SCSI!!!! From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 23 02:16:10 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 00:16:10 -0700 Subject: surplus store in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <20.436754c2.2f9a6fac@aol.com> References: <20.436754c2.2f9a6fac@aol.com> Message-ID: <200504230016100552.08CF937D@192.168.42.129> I would add to this RE-PC's two locations, in Tukwila and Seattle. At the risk of shameless self-promotion, my web site at: http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/waswapindex.html ...has listings for electronics and computer surplus places in Washington (state), parts of Oregon, and the Bay Area. Keep the peace(es). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 22-Apr-05 at 11:18 Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: >BOEING!!! if you're in Kent, you should definitely check it out. >Feast or famine, prices sometimes great, ok, or outrageous, but they have >everything from VAXen to ONYX/HP V-class machines, unfortunatly mostly PCs >(but I >got my $5 Apollo, and my $25 Indigo2 IMPACT 10000 (this was 3 years ago) > >- Scott Quinn -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 23 03:31:59 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:31:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Re: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers" (Apr 22, 17:34) References: <200504230034.j3N0YVF7023762@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <10504230931.ZM12244@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 22 2005, 17:34, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > People might think that your next step is to replace your vintage > > computers with simulators. > > Trust me, I gave that some serious thought. I'm not about to give up the > space that my PDP-11's take at home with 8-bit micro's, and I'm seriously > short on space for more HW. > > The odds are I'll use real monitors, I'm just exploring my options. > Realistically this is most practical if I decide to setup one of my //gs's, > except I think they prefer a different type monitor. I use a simple 2-way KVM (but only the V part, obviously) switch for my BBC Micro (PAL composite) and my Exidy Sorcerer (NTSC composite). And a second 4-way KVM (again, V part only) for another BBC Micro (using the RGB output at 50Hz/15kHz), a PC (VGA), another Acorn machine, and whatever random 4th device want to be viewed. This one's connected to a multisync. So it can be done. I didn't really expect the KVM switch to work properly like that, but it did. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Apr 23 03:38:00 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:38:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: Scott Stevens "Re: I'm going to design and build an X terminal" (Apr 22, 20:55) References: <0504212339.AA11944@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200504220125.44455.pat@computer-refuge.org> <20050422205553.1ac0d807.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10504230938.ZM12247@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 22 2005, 20:55, Scott Stevens wrote: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 01:25:44 -0500 > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Michael Sokolov declared on Thursday 21 April 2005 06:39 pm: > > > (Are there any 3-button sans-wheel USB mice?) > > > > I'd skip USB all-together, and just use a serial or PS/2 interface > > mouse. > > > > Further, if he wants to stay away from 'PC Clone-ness' in his design, > there are some pretty decent 3-button PS/2-interface mice from SGI. > The O2 workstation uses these. Also for Indys and Indigo^2s. They're actually rebadged Logitech Pilot PS/2 mice, made in "granite" grey. The same mouse was also used by DEC/Compac for Alphas, in off-white. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Apr 23 02:55:39 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:55:39 +0100 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Apr 2005 13:58:08 PDT." Message-ID: <200504230755.IAA09230@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Sellam said: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Stan Barr wrote: > > > > No. A quick scan through the Russian chapter in the book didn't throw > > up any references either. > > Title, please? Electronic Brains / Stories from the Dawn of the Computer Age Auth: Mike Hally Publ: BBC/Granta Books, London 2005 ISBN: 1 86207 6634 -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Apr 23 02:59:00 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 08:59:00 +0100 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Apr 2005 15:43:37 PDT." <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200504230759.IAA09272@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Zane H. Healy said: > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? No, but I tried plugging my ZX81 into my Mac 630, which has a tv tuner, but I couldn't make it sync - but ZX81s are notorious for not working with colour TVs. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Apr 23 03:18:53 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:18:53 +0100 Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 Apr 2005 01:49:12 BST." Message-ID: <200504230818.JAA09518@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tony Duell said: > > I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get > 90V from low-voltage batteries. See http://hometown.aol.co.uk/kitradioco/uk.htm for a commercial one, it even looks like a battery. But IIRC you're like me - you don't like _buying_ things you can make! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Apr 23 03:24:05 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:24:05 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:03:40 PDT." <20050422205613.W1279@localhost> Message-ID: <200504230824.JAA09567@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Tom Jennings said: > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, woodelf wrote: > > > I wonder if the quality of AM radio ( not counting the decline in music > > taste) > > has gone down since every thing uses soild state diodes as compared to tube > > diodes. > > No. Narrow IFs and lack of design attention due to declining > worthwhile content on AM (plus novelty of FM in the '60s) and > other factors all conspired to make it sound crappy. I don't know about the US, but UK am stations still transmit decent audio even if the radios ain't much good. I have a couple of xtal sets - one modern design and a replica cat's whisker design - and with good Sony or Sennheiser hi-fi phones the audio is excellent on our local stations. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cc at corti-net.de Sat Apr 23 04:21:35 2005 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:21:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >>> ratings -- the EABC80 (6.3V heater), UABC80 (100mA series string heater, >>> by far the most common version) and the oddball PABC80 (300mA series >>> string heater). It turned up in numerous AM/FM radios in the 1960s, where The EABC80 and UABC80 must have appeared around 1952. I have Grundig 2012W from 1952 (2xEF41, ECH81, EABC80, EL41, EM34). There was an all-current model, too (the 2012GW). Since then most radio sets became boring (from the technical point of view) because they were built with the same tubes (ECC85, ECH81, EF89, EABC80 and EL84, with very little variations). > Whether there existed sets with, say, an EB91 (double diode, I think you > call it a 6AL5) for the FM detector and an EBC91 (say) for the AM dector, > AGC, and 1st audio, I don't know, and I am not looking for such a Of course it exists! It was very common then. Thinking of my Graetz 154GW from 1950 with UB41 as ration detector and UBF80 for AM and delayed AGC, or of my Grundig 380W from 1951 with EAA11 and EBF15. Then there were other interesting circuits from K?rting (Syntektor 54W, synchronous detector? don't know how it's called in English), or simple AM/FM radio sets that used only one single diode for AM *and* FM (edge demodulator?) Christian From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 23 04:31:16 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:31:16 +0100 Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) References: Message-ID: <001601c547e7$33698ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Tony Duell" > > Whether there existed sets with, say, an EB91 (double diode, I think you > call it a 6AL5) for the FM detector and an EBC91 (say) for the AM dector, > AGC, and 1st audio, I don't know, and I am not looking for such a > schematic tonight!. > > -tony > The Hacker Mayflower 2 I have on the bench at the moment uses an EB91 as FM detector, but appears to have no AGC (it is FM only). The is a preset (rear mounted) sensitivity control on the 1st IF though. I suppose the idea is that you were a set distance from the transmitter, so the sensitivity (gain) could be fixed - when this set was built, FM broadcasting consisted of 3 stations (Third, Home and Light), all from the BBC, so the transmitters for a certain area would be co-located. There are a few other FM sets that use the EB91, but I don't have any to hand to look how the AGC is derived. Jim. From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Apr 23 06:08:10 2005 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 06:08:10 -0500 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: References: <0504220502.AA12706@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33166.64.169.63.74.1114148611.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <426A2C9A.40006@mdrconsult.com> Bj?rn Vermo wrote: Bj?rn, would you PLEASE unsubscribe either from CCtalk or CCtech? No offense, please, but nothing you've ever posted was worth reading twice. Or even deleting twice. Thank you. Doc From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sat Apr 23 07:16:05 2005 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:16:05 +0100 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> At 23:43 22/04/2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV >converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer >with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? I use an ATI Radeon All In Wonder on the PC to do exactly this, for a BBC micro. It's realtime video (I presume it's a hardware overlay) and despite the actual tv software being prone to crashing occasionally, seems to work quite well, and certainly saves on the desk space. My wife's machine has an external USB2 connected tv capture box; whilst I haven't tried a micro on that, showing TV is definitely more jumpy when other things are happening on the PC, so I presume that is a software display and thus more demanding on the hardware. Rob From spedraja at ono.com Sat Apr 23 09:18:20 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:18:20 +0200 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11685&item=7151553829& rd=1 Another possibility is glue in his finger when he clicked the zero. Cheers Sergio From appleto at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 09:37:41 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:37:41 -0400 Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Ok, but you can always put the drives on top of the //gs, or get an > internal hard drive (like one of mine :) The IIgs does use more desk space, and it uses a heck of a larger volume. The IIc is also slightly more stylish. > There are now CF adapters and IDE interfaces available for the Apple ][. Yeah, I've been thinking about going this route too. It even sounds like the CF adapter will run on unenhanced IIe's these day. But I've always felt weird using an Apple II with a hard drive. Sure it can be done, and there are many ways of doing so, but most of the 8-bit software fits on a couple of 180 kB floppies. As for the games, some of which use many more diskettes, it would be surprising if many of them would run from a hard drive. From appleto at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 09:52:18 2005 From: appleto at gmail.com (Ronald Wayne) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 10:52:18 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221712.j3MHC5vk001320@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504221712.j3MHC5vk001320@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: It's not so much the shredding of computers which I find disgusting as how wasteful we are with technology. I'm guessing that over half of the mass of our discards could be reused, never mind recycled, if we were in the right state of mind. And a lot more hardware could be reused if it were designed properly. But I continually try to remind myself that this throw-away mentality is why I had such a nice collection: I've been to a recycler before (not that type of recycler though) and snagged a fair bit of nice old hardware, found complete systems at thrift stores, and even pulled rejects off the curb. It is a nice way to build a collection. Unfortunately, some times it is a little much (particularly when you have to get rid of it because you're moving.) From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sat Apr 23 10:24:20 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:24:20 -0400 Subject: LCD monitors In-Reply-To: <200504230616.j3N6Fp4q016619@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504231524.j3NFODWZ028233@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> LCD Monitors have gotten cheap. I'm regularly seeing 17" 1280x1024 monitors for $149 to $169 and 19" 1280x1024 for $249 to $279. Most of these are off-brand, but sometimes they are name-brand (Planar, Sceptre, Acer, even occasionally Samsung). The best sources are Tiger Direct (www.tigerdirect.com) and www.ecost.com. Both have relatively large quantities of "inexpensive" monitors (17" under $199 and 19" under $299). I've bought quite a few of them, and they have been ok. None have had more than 3 bad pixels (none have been "perfect", either). They are not "great" monitors, but they are not junk either, they are perfectly useable. My biggest complaint is that they don't have DVI inputs, but you can find monitors in the "cheap" price range (under $199 and 19" under $299) that do. My second biggest complaint is short or poor quality cables, which causes "ghosting" and "ringing" in the image. Cable quality is VERY important. You can almost judge this by the thickness of the cable. You want a cable that's like a garden hose, not like a (thin) soda straw. If you are going to use an analog LCD monitor, you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't get the test pattern generator available at: http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?500000030936 And use it to properly set the dot clock. After installation, select the leftmost of the 3 functions in the "Test" group and then check both check-boxes. This is a very old Windows 3.1 program written in visual basic. It runs under XP just fine. You need VBRUN300.DLL (the Visual basic version 3 runtime DLL library), which it may or may not come with it depending on where you download it from. This program is non-invasive, it's "installation" makes no changes to your registry or to any system components or files. In fact, if you just unzip the program and double click the exe file, it will run fine without actual "installation" (the program and the help file need to be in the same directory, and VBRUN300.DLL needs to be available). When you display this pattern, you should see an absolutely perfect and uniform field of alternating (but very, very fine) black and white vertical bars each only one single pixel wide. If you see "moir?" distortion, or smearing, your display isn't adjusted correctly. Digital monitors (with DVI interfaces) will always be "perfect". Analog monitors will usually show an initial moir? distortion pattern until they are adjusted (dot clock frequency and phase). In most cases, perfect adjustment can be achieved (and is "remembered" by the display), but in some cases you can't achieve this. Note that the "auto" (auto-adjust) function on almost all analog LCD monitors gets "close" but usually does not get to the best possible adjustment. The average life of the CCFT lamps used in monitors is about 25,000 hours. They can be replaced with varying degrees of difficulty (ranging from trivial to impossible). Newark Electronics carries a good selection of generic lamps (you need to know the diameter and length in mm). However, the usual failure mode is the inverter, not the lamp, and getting an exact replacement inverter is often difficult or impossible. The problem isn't cost ($30 to $80), it's pure availability, as many of these are custom parts only available from the manufacturer. It may be cheaper to buy a new monitor and sell the old one for parts on E-Bay (the LCD panel, which may still be good, may be worth more as a part than the cost of a new monitor). From James at jdfogg.com Sat Apr 23 12:20:32 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:20:32 -0400 Subject: Theos Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> Anybody ever hear of an OS called Theos that ran on the original IBM PC? Said to be *nix/CPM-ish but is neither? A friend has an old 5150 with this installed on the HD. He wants to copy it off and preserve it. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 23 12:23:42 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:23:42 -0500 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? In-Reply-To: <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <20050423122342.7a4746b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:18:20 +0200 "SP" wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11685&item=7151553829& > rd=1 > > Another possibility is glue in his finger when he clicked the zero. > > Cheers > Sergio > One thing I don't get is that he says he's 'throwing in' the IBM DOS Technical Reference Manual. Which is certainly far more rare than the DOS 1.0 itself, if it's the 1.0 Tech Ref. Outrageous price, though. Are people REALLY offering him $200 for copies of the diskette? Hmmm, time to fire up one of my machines with a DSDD floppy drive in them, eh? ;) From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Apr 23 13:23:03 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:23:03 -0500 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? In-Reply-To: <20050423122342.7a4746b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> <20050423122342.7a4746b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504231323.03754.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 23 April 2005 12:23, Scott Stevens wrote: > Outrageous price, though. Are people REALLY offering him $200 for > copies of the diskette? Hmmm, time to fire up one of my machines > with a DSDD floppy drive in them, eh? ;) Hey, better not pirate that, lest Bill gets upset again! ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 23 13:46:32 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:46:32 -0500 Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) Message-ID: <000801c54834$c5795690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> So after I got my HP 2100 access system working, I noticed that the user ports (on the 12920 mux) wouldn't work on my Televideo 950. No big deal, I had a VT100 in the "computer room" and it worked fine. I made a mental note to investigate the pinouts someday, assuming the VT100 provided a signal the 12920 mux ports were expecting.... something along those lines. Never got around to it. Reorganized my "computer room" one day... and hooked everything up to the Televideo 950 via an ABCD switchbox. Then I brought up the 21MXE access system, and it suddenly because rather irritating that the TV950 wouldn't work on the 12920 mux ports, as during the re-org the VT100 was migrated to a shelf because of the switchbox. Well, now it was a pain so I spent a good while with a breakout box trying to figure out why an "ENTER" key on the TV950 would never get a "PLEASE LOG IN" prompt, but on the VT100 it always did. I spent hours screwing around with custom pinouts, looking at the control signals and figuring out what when hi/lo and when, etc. I was confused. Then I noticed that big fat "LINE FEED" button on the TV950 keyboard. I hit enter, then linefeed, and voila! PLEASE LOG IN. This immediately struck home, as I know the Access 12920 mux uses an initial CR/LF to do an autobaud. This clearly told me that the TV950 was sending a CR, rather than CRLF when the enter key was pressed. Talk about egg on your face ;) I spent hours looking in the wrong place - vaguely analogous to forgetting to check that a device was plugged in. Ha. Ha. So anyways... many terminals I've worked with support setting the ENTER/RETURN key to generate a CR, or a CR/LF. I can't find any such setting on the Televideo 950. Is it there and I'm just missing it? Jay West From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 23 13:15:51 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:15:51 -0400 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? In-Reply-To: <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050423141551.014b0760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I also wonder what's up with these people that want payment within 48 hours. Perhaps they don't want their sucker, er, ah, WINNER to reconsider! Joe At 04:18 PM 4/23/05 +0200, you wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11685&item=7151553829& >rd=1 > >Another possibility is glue in his finger when he clicked the zero. > >Cheers >Sergio > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 23 13:22:01 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:22:01 -0400 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? In-Reply-To: <20050423122342.7a4746b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050423142201.0096d4a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:23 PM 4/23/05 -0500, Scott wrote: >On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:18:20 +0200 >"SP" wrote: > >> http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11685&item=7151553829& >> rd=1 >> >> Another possibility is glue in his finger when he clicked the zero. >> >> Cheers >> Sergio >> > >One thing I don't get is that he says he's 'throwing in' the IBM DOS >Technical Reference Manual. Which is certainly far more rare than the >DOS 1.0 itself, if it's the 1.0 Tech Ref. > >Outrageous price, though. Are people REALLY offering him $200 for >copies of the diskette? Only in his dreams, I expect! Someone should E-mail him and ask for copies of the messages from people willing t pay him $200 for a copy. Any bets on what his reply will be? (or WON'T be!) Hmmm, time to fire up one of my machines with a >DSDD floppy drive in them, eh? ;) Hey I'm calling dibs on that! I'll even make the copies on my genuine IBM PC :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 23 13:24:53 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:24:53 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221338.j3MDcFeu097635@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050423142453.0096fe90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If they (HP/Compaq/DEC) would shred their current and recent PCs the world would be a better place! Joe At 09:38 AM 4/22/05 -0400, you wrote: >Check out all four pages in the link under this photo (from CNET): >http://tinyurl.com/9e6le > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Apr 23 13:38:06 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 14:38:06 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <20050423000303.527c47a9.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <200504221058.49328.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050423143806.00963c60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:03 AM 4/23/05 -0500, you wrote: >> >> So find that place and offer them money for the stuff before they >> shred it. >> > >I've been around said operations before. Often you have to be a bonded >employee to even see what's on the floor. And you'll NEVER be allowed >to take anything off the floor in anything bigger than granular size. >They sign NDA's with the places that ship them the gear, therefore the >machines don't need to be 'decomissioned' or the data wiped because a >secured, bonded disposal site is guaranteed to destroy it. That hasn't been my experience. I shop at several scrap/recycling places on a routine basis and they seldom have NDAs. The ones in this area get a LOT of computers from NASA and military contractors and the source usuallies pull the hard drives if they're concerned about them but the rest of the computer goes out for recycling. EVERY recycler in this area readily resells the stuff if someone shows up with money. ONE scrap place here USED to have a Must Destroy contract from ONE of his sources and he wasn't allowed to sell ANY electronic device or even components but that's the only time I ran into that situation. Any company or person that relies on a scrpper or recycler to "decomishion" their computers and destroy sensitive data is an idiot!!!! The recyclers don't have the knowledge or time or concern to do that adaquetely. Joe From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Apr 23 14:00:51 2005 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:00:51 -0700 Subject: phase converters for big iron Message-ID: <426A38F3.28406.C33BCB2@localhost> Hi, Does anyone have any experience using motor-generator phase converters to produce 3 phase power from single phase power for running big iron? (e.g. IBM mainframe equipment). They seem reasonably priced -- about $1 per peak KW, at least on sale: http://www.phaseconverter.com I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has actual real experience with or knowledge about this. Thanks Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian at quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 23 14:22:07 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:22:07 -0700 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> <004501c5480f$4d78d140$1502a8c0@ACER> Message-ID: <426AA05F.AA958770@msm.umr.edu> his feedback count is only 3 probably has no clue what is reasonable SP wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11685&item=7151553829& > rd=1 > > Another possibility is glue in his finger when he clicked the zero. > > Cheers > Sergio From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Apr 23 14:29:14 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:29:14 -0700 Subject: IBM 3390s on ebay... References: <200504221023.51273.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <426AA20A.C696B7C7@msm.umr.edu> Patrick, you could use these if they were what was shown in the photos. he has photos of escon and 3390 cabinets in a 3380 auction. I doubt he knows what he has. Also probably does not know the difference between storage directors and the actual dasd cabinets. One would not only have to educate him on the fact his value was silly but that he has to actually show one what piece one is buying so one could get both the controller and the drives in these auctions. anyway EMC cabinets would be better anyway. more storage in a single cabinet. Jim From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Apr 23 14:41:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:41:32 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <426A38F3.28406.C33BCB2@localhost> Message-ID: <17002.42220.302373.185113@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Knittel writes: Brian> Hi, Does anyone have any experience using motor-generator Brian> phase converters to produce 3 phase power from single phase Brian> power for running big iron? (e.g. IBM mainframe Brian> equipment). They seem reasonably priced -- about $1 per peak Brian> KW, at least on sale: http://www.phaseconverter.com I read it as $200 per kW... Brian> I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has actual real Brian> experience with or knowledge about this. I have no experience with these. However... It's not a motor generator. I'm not sure how best to describe it. The idea is that you apply mains power to one phase of a 3-phase motor, get it to spin (starter capacitor) and then the other two phases appear between the powered pins and the third pin. A rotary transformer? Probably. These things are very popular among home shop machinists, or others who want to run lathes with 3-phase motors when the power company only delivers one phase. Another alternative (I have no actual experience here either) is solid state 3 phase generators -- which may be referred to as motor speed controllers because they produce an adjustable output frequency. These would be attractive if you need something other than 50/60 Hz. For example, those of you with CDC mainframes at home may want one... paul From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 23 15:22:56 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:22:56 -0400 Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050423141551.014b0760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> <6.2.0.14.0.20050423131010.04da3150@pop.freeserve.net> <3.0.6.32.20050423141551.014b0760@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <426AAEA0.nailP8W11XA0L@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > http://cgi.ebay.es/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11685&item=7151553829&rd=1 Wow, if that's worth $5000, I wonder what my QDOS floppies and Seattle Computer Products S-100 must be worth? Probably nothing, as I'm sure he'll get no offers at $5k. Tim. From allain at panix.com Sat Apr 23 15:27:17 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:27:17 -0400 Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... References: <200504221712.j3MHC5vk001320@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <00b401c54842$d891c380$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > It's not so much the shredding of computers which I find > disgusting as how wasteful we are with technology. I'm > guessing that over half of the mass of our discards could > be reused, never mind recycled, if we were in the right state > of mind. Get to know this site: National Cristina Foundation http://www.cristina.org/dsf/ They are a brokerage matching up "Haves" with "Have Nots", usually by nearest location, so no shipping is required. I have outplaced now 29 computers destined for South Africa, thanks to this organization. After establishing the relationship, I even sent out systems lower than the minimum requirement, by mutual agreement. John A. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Apr 23 16:41:12 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:41:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <426A38F3.28406.C33BCB2@localhost> Message-ID: > I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has actual > real experience with or knowledge about this. Whatever size of converter you figure you need, even with safety factor, slop, and such...get the next size up. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 16:41:49 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:41:49 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Lord Isildur Date: Apr 22, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: Free to a good home To: port-vax at netbsd.org I have a VAX 4000/300 that needs a new home. It has no memory, and I'm under pressure to either get it up and running or get it out of the machine room. Having not found reasonably priced memory anywhere in the last year, I think finally it has to go. alas! anyway, the machine is free for pickup in Pittsburgh, PA, on the CMU campus. Anyone want it? Isildur From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 23 17:07:44 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:07:44 -0500 Subject: Free Book: Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Engineering Message-ID: <20050423170744.6a3c23de.chenmel@earthlink.net> To the first person who wants it and will pay shipping, I have a copy of: Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Engineering, Second Edition. Edited by Ralston and Reilly. Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1983. This is a huge book, about the size of an oversized College Dictionary, a bit smaller than an unabridged dictionary. 1650 pages hardbound. Shipping weight looks like about 7 pounds (about that much overscale on my 5 pound scale). It should be of interest to people who participate on this list, because it dates from the Minicomputer/Mainframe era and hast lots of references to classic-era computing. It won't probably be expensive to ship media rate within the US. To calculate aprox. shipping you can use zipcode 46227. First person to respond gets first chance at it. -Scott From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 23 14:32:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LCD monitors In-Reply-To: <200504231524.j3NFODWZ028233@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> References: <200504230616.j3N6Fp4q016619@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200504231524.j3NFODWZ028233@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <33259.64.169.63.74.1114284766.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Barry wrote: > If you are going to use an analog LCD monitor, you are doing yourself a > disservice if you don't get the test pattern generator available at: > http://www.winsite.com/bin/Info?500000030936 I just wrote one for Linux last week: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/lcdtest/ Actually it could probably be built for Windows as well, since it uses the SDL graphics library which also works on Windows. > And use it to properly set the dot clock. [...] > When you display this pattern, you should see an absolutely perfect and > uniform field of alternating (but very, very fine) black and white > vertical bars each only one single pixel wide. My program could generate that, but you had to type five keys to get it. So I've just added a new key "a" which sets that up directly. It's in the 1.00 release which I just put on the web page. > It may be cheaper to buy a new monitor and sell the old one for parts > on E-Bay (the LCD panel, which may still be good, may be worth more as > a part than the cost of a new monitor). I've seen that good laptop LCD panels often sell for more than the price of a new laptop equipped with a similar panel. I've never understood this. Eric From marvin at rain.org Sat Apr 23 17:26:49 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:26:49 -0700 Subject: Ebay: HP 82045A Thermal Paper Message-ID: <426ACBA9.CAC39088@rain.org> Just in case someone needs it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=25349&item=7510322505&rd=1 From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 23 17:27:14 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Ronald Wayne wrote: > Yeah, I've been thinking about going this route too. It even sounds > like the CF adapter will run on unenhanced IIe's these day. But I've > always felt weird using an Apple II with a hard drive. Sure it can be > done, and there are many ways of doing so, but most of the 8-bit > software fits on a couple of 180 kB floppies. As for the games, some > of which use many more diskettes, it would be surprising if many of > them would run from a hard drive. I've run my Apple //e with a Sider ][ 20Meg hard drive since, oh, 1989 or so. What's wrong with running a hard drive with a ][? ProDOS was made with large capacity disk drives in mind. Many applications from the ProDOS era onwards are made to run from a volume, which is not necessarily a disk. By the //gs era, hard drives were common. Most applications were allowed to be loaded to hard disk if you had one. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 23 17:29:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Theos In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, James Fogg wrote: > Anybody ever hear of an OS called Theos that ran on the original IBM PC? > Said to be *nix/CPM-ish but is neither? A friend has an old 5150 with > this installed on the HD. He wants to copy it off and preserve it. I've never heard of it. Certainly sounds interesting and is worth preserving. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 23 17:31:02 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 15:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What drinks this guy in the morning ? In-Reply-To: <20050423122342.7a4746b4.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Outrageous price, though. Are people REALLY offering him $200 for > copies of the diskette? Hmmm, time to fire up one of my machines with a > DSDD floppy drive in them, eh? ;) By "people" I'm sure he means one obnoxious guy who is obviously too clueless to find a copy elsewhere. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Sat Apr 23 17:43:31 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:43:31 -0400 Subject: Power always on, or power on/off Message-ID: In the interest of getting the longest life span out of something, what is the better way of handling power? Should one leave the power on all the time, or should one turn it on and off as needed. This assumes the item in question is going to be used on a regular basis (such as daily). I know there is debate on this topic, so I'm asking it here where people may have the best chance of showing long term patterns to survival rates on either method. My personal finding has been anything that gets regularly power cycled dies sooner then items that are left on all the time. That said, I still turn off anything that will be unused for extended periods of time (not for increasing the life span, but for decreasing my utility bill... ie: I turn off my Playstation when done as that may go weeks between use... but I leave my main computer on 24x7x365, both to increase its life, and to avoid waiting for it to boot.) Alas, my "it lasts longer when left on" data is based off old hardware that has been left on for years at a time. Compared to newer hardware that gets cycled daily. So it could be that leaving something on is better for it, or it could be that modern electronics just suck. So what is the opinion of the group? Leave it on, or shut it off? (and I hope I'm not starting a long flaming thread) -chris From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 23 15:19:41 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Theos In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <33537.64.169.63.74.1114287581.squirrel@64.169.63.74> James Fogg wrote: > Anybody ever hear of an OS called Theos that ran on the original IBM PC? > Said to be *nix/CPM-ish but is neither? A friend has an old 5150 with > this installed on the HD. He wants to copy it off and preserve it. Isn't that the OS that was originally called Oasis? I've never used it, but it used to be available on Z-80 systems from The Digital Group (and other vendors, I'm sure.) Looks like they're still in business selling a 32-bit version: http://www.theos-software.com/ Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 23 15:22:38 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) In-Reply-To: <000801c54834$c5795690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000801c54834$c5795690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <33552.64.169.63.74.1114287758.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote about HP 2000/Access Time Shared BASIC: > Then I noticed that big fat "LINE FEED" button on the TV950 keyboard. I > hit enter, then linefeed, and voila! PLEASE LOG IN. This immediately > struck home, as I know the Access 12920 mux uses an initial CR/LF to do > an autobaud. This clearly told me that the TV950 was sending a CR, rather > than CRLF when the enter key was pressed. Talk about egg on your face ;) I > spent hours looking in the wrong place - vaguely analogous to forgetting to > check that a device was plugged in. Ha. Ha. > > So anyways... many terminals I've worked with support setting the > ENTER/RETURN key to generate a CR, or a CR/LF. I can't find any such > setting on the Televideo 950. Is it there and I'm just missing it? I don't remember seeing that feature on any terminal, though perhaps it does exist on some. Certainly the Teletype ASR-33 that we always used with TSB didn't have any feature to do that. You just had to hit the linefeed key when you want a linefeed. And once you're logged into TSB, I don't think you *want* linefeeds after each CR. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 17:17:12 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:17:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <42682127.9070201@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Apr 21, 5 10:54:47 pm Message-ID: > > I've just remembered that Magic Eye valves/tubes have (I think) > an amplifying triode in the same envelope as the indicator. And I They do (and sometimes 2 triodes, for the dual-sensitivity indicators like the EM34). > think they're internally linked together. Does anyone have any > data on these gadgets that would show this sort of information? Sure. The data I have on them shows the triode anode is directly connected to the control electrode of the indicator section. That's then brought out to a pin. Conventioanlly, the target is connected to HT+, the triode anode/control electrode to HT+ via a resistor [1], the cathode goes to ground, and the signal you want to display (often the AGC line in an AM set) goes to the triode grid. [1] This resistor is notorious for going open-circuit. Something to check if the magic eye seems dead. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 17:20:19 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:20:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Better have a strong stomach for this... In-Reply-To: <200504221712.j3MHC5vk001320@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Evan" at Apr 22, 5 01:13:31 pm Message-ID: > > I just heard back from a contact in HP's corporate archives. She assured me > that the recyclers are told to look out for anything that's really old, and > to send it to her. What, like 386-based PCs, you mean :-( Considering HP seem to have forgotten they ever made such classics as the 9100, 9830, 2100, etc, I expect anything from the above statement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 17:34:22 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:34:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504230110.j3N1AU9A024388@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 22, 5 06:10:30 pm Message-ID: > > But a well-known phrase involving sledgehammers and nuts springs to mind. > > > > -tony > > Hmmm, sounds like a phrase that might apply to me, but I'm not familiar with 'Using a sledgehammer to crack a nut' and similar statements... It's a common English phrase for an over-complicated solution to what should be a simple problem. I don't know how many million transistors are in that PC + video digitiser + graphics card + ... but I think you could make a PAL or NTSC colour monitor in under 100 transistors without even trying.. Several million transistors is over-complicated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 18:00:51 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:00:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) In-Reply-To: <000801c54834$c5795690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Apr 23, 5 01:46:32 pm Message-ID: > Then I noticed that big fat "LINE FEED" button on the TV950 keyboard. I hit > enter, then linefeed, and voila! PLEASE LOG IN. This immediately struck Worse than that : On a PERQ under PNX, the enter key in fact produces a LF (which is the convention end-of-line under unix, of course). If you run the PNX terminal emulator, the enter key sends an LF to the remote system and the linefeed key sends a CR. Come again???? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 17:45:16 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:45:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <0IFD00JZMPT18AC9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 22, 5 11:03:18 pm Message-ID: > >> I have an RCA AM broadcast Battery/mains radio that I still use. > >> Works well. The multivoltage battery though bad supplied the > >> authentic looking cover for a box I'd made using uses NiCds > >> to run a switchmode supply to provide the A,B and C voltages > >> required. Runs for hours on that too. > > > >I'm suprised it needs a separate C supply. UK sets all used self-bias by > >this time, I think. C (grid bias) batteries were not used for radios much > >after the 1930 in the UK. > > Myself as well. The design of this radio is early 50s. I have a similar > circuits from the 1960 RCA tube manual that require only A and B(HT) voltages. > However this radio had a battery based on destructive examination and markings > that provided 7.5V, 1.5V and 90V. So the likely case is "C" voltage or as Battery radios in the UK typically used 4 valves : DK92 or DK96 pentagrid frequency changer DF91 or DF96 IF amplfier DAF91 or DAF96 detector diode/1st audio (pentode) DL91 or DL96 audio output. Each had a 1.5V filamanet, excpet for the output pentode which had a 3V filament with a centre tap. The first valves listed had 50mA filaments, the second had 25mA ones. Such sets generally either put all 5 filamenet sections in parallel, running them off a 1.5V battery (often 2 or 4 cells in parallel) or put them in series, running them off a 7.5V battery. I think all of them by this point used self-bias. > yet unexamined posibility, a seperate heater supply for the audio output tube. Possible, although a 7.5V filament is not common. And having 5 signal-stage valves with their filaments in series (giving 7.5V) would not be common either. It would be interesting to know what's going on in this set. Can you get a schematic? Being an American set, it's not in Poole and Molloy :-( > >I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get > >90V from low-voltage batteries. > > Unfamiliar, Elektor is not seen here in USA. It's one of the better electronics magazines available over here. It has some interesting projects, and they've now started making microcontroller source code available for most, but not all, of them. The circuit in question was a pretty standard inverter circuit, running at about 50Hz (not a typo, they wanted to keep RF noise down), feeding a normal mains transformer used in reverse. Looks like it should work with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 17:49:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:49:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves In-Reply-To: <200504230818.JAA09518@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Apr 23, 5 09:18:53 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Tony Duell said: > > > > > > I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get > > 90V from low-voltage batteries. > > See http://hometown.aol.co.uk/kitradioco/uk.htm for a commercial one, IIRC they're based in Westerham (Kent, but very close to London). It's a pity they're mail-order only (I don't trust the postal 'service' round here...), as I could collect from them very easily, and I'd probably have bought some stuff from them if I didn't have to worry about the post... > it even looks like a battery. But IIRC you're like me - you don't like > _buying_ things you can make! Of course not. Making things myself seems to be the only way to get them even moderately well designed now. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 17:53:47 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:53:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT Don't read this (was Re: Altair MBL source) In-Reply-To: <001601c547e7$33698ce0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> from "Jim Beacon" at Apr 23, 5 10:31:16 am Message-ID: > > > From: "Tony Duell" > > > > Whether there existed sets with, say, an EB91 (double diode, I think you > > call it a 6AL5) for the FM detector and an EBC91 (say) for the AM dector, > > AGC, and 1st audio, I don't know, and I am not looking for such a > > schematic tonight!. > > > > -tony > > > > The Hacker Mayflower 2 I have on the bench at the moment uses an EB91 as FM > detector, but appears to have no AGC (it is FM only). The is a preset (rear I am not in any doubt that the EB91 was used as an FM demodulator. What I was asking about was sets that had effectively 4 diodes for FM demodulator, AM detector and delayed AGC. I've enver had the pleasure of working on a Hacker (what a wonderful name!) valved radio. Their transsitor sets are some of my favourites, though, particularly the RP18 Sovereign. It has separate IF strips for AM and FM -- the only common stages are the audio ones. And a decent audio amplifier and speaker specified to give 1.5 honest watts. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sat Apr 23 18:11:11 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility Message-ID: I'm currently using Anadisk to dump disks into image files. The problem is, Anadisk, like 22disk, is retarded. If it hits an error it skips the sector but does not put a blank sector in the image file. You have the option of placing a sector header before each sector, but for manipulating disk images, this is a piss poor way to mark missing sectors. Anadisk also has the annoying habit of ignoring the start and finish cylinders and merrily proceeds to read the entire disk, relegating the need to ask you what cylinders you want dumped superfluous. Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* myself? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Apr 23 18:43:48 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:43:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Theos In-Reply-To: <33537.64.169.63.74.1114287581.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> <33537.64.169.63.74.1114287581.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <1200.192.168.0.10.1114299828.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > Isn't that the OS that was originally called Oasis? I've never used > it, but it used to be available on Z-80 systems from The Digital Group > (and other vendors, I'm sure.) > > Looks like they're still in business selling a 32-bit version: > http://www.theos-software.com/ Now that has surprised me more than I expected....bits of me want to see THEOS running on an HT P4..... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 23 18:59:43 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:59:43 -0500 Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) References: <000801c54834$c5795690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33552.64.169.63.74.1114287758.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <009801c54860$860286e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric wrote... > I don't remember seeing that feature on any terminal, though perhaps > it does exist on some. Actually, that feature (setting the enter key to cr OR crlf) is present on every terminal I've ever worked with, except about two of them. Most systems I've worked on in my life required it. > Certainly the Teletype ASR-33 that we always used with TSB didn't have > any feature to do that. You just had to hit the linefeed key when you > want a linefeed. Agreed. But Teletypes were current loop, and thus they wouldn't be hooked up to the 12920 mux generally would they? > And once you're logged into TSB, I don't think you *want* linefeeds after > each CR. You are correct actually.... but here's what confused me. I'm absolutely positive that the ACT I, IV, and V terminals we had hooked up to our access system in high school, you simply pressed enter. I'm quite sure you didn't have to hit linefeed to autobaud. Thus, they were either generating CRLF, or the system was patched. Jay West From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 19:01:56 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:01:56 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/05, 9000 VAX wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Lord Isildur > Date: Apr 22, 2005 1:58 PM > Subject: Free to a good home > To: port-vax at netbsd.org > > I have a VAX 4000/300 that needs a new home. It has no memory, and I'm > under pressure to either get it up and running or get it out of the > machine room. Having not found reasonably priced memory anywhere in the > last year, I think finally it has to go. alas! anyway, the machine is > free for pickup in Pittsburgh, PA, on the CMU campus. Anyone want it? > Isildur Hi, If the VAX isn't claimed, I'm interested. I also think I recognize your e-mail address... you in the SCA? I'm in Columbus, OH, BTW. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 19:03:27 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:03:27 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If the VAX isn't claimed... Oops... that was supposed to be offline... sorry. -ethan From williams.dan at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 19:05:03 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:05:03 +0100 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26c11a6405042317053b634473@mail.gmail.com> On 4/24/05, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'm currently using Anadisk to dump disks into image files. The problem > is, Anadisk, like 22disk, is retarded. If it hits an error it skips the > sector but does not put a blank sector in the image file. You have the > option of placing a sector header before each sector, but for manipulating > disk images, this is a piss poor way to mark missing sectors. Anadisk > also has the annoying habit of ignoring the start and finish cylinders and > merrily proceeds to read the entire disk, relegating the need to ask you > what cylinders you want dumped superfluous. > > Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank space > where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. > > I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* > myself? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > Can't really help you much, I've never tried to copy a disk with errors before. But I've used these before, they mostly run on msdos or linux. It also depends on what disks you're trying to copy. fdcopy teledisk copyqm apridisk libdsk Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 23 19:05:56 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:05:56 -0500 Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) Message-ID: <00a601c54861$63c10970$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Eric had written.... >> And once you're logged into TSB, I don't think you *want* linefeeds after >> each CR. Just thought of something else that makes for some confusion. The VT220 does generate CR/LF from the enter key (and I believe that's settable, have to check). But that means it always does, not just at the autobaud step. And.... I've used that terminal for quite some time with TSB, and after logging in it worked just fine. Truly odd. Jay From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 19:10:32 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:10:32 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please send your request to Lord Isildur, as I merely forwarded his email here. vax, 9000 On 4/23/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/23/05, 9000 VAX wrote: > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > From: Lord Isildur > > Date: Apr 22, 2005 1:58 PM > > Subject: Free to a good home > > To: port-vax at netbsd.org > > > > I have a VAX 4000/300 that needs a new home. It has no memory, and I'm > > under pressure to either get it up and running or get it out of the > > machine room. Having not found reasonably priced memory anywhere in the > > last year, I think finally it has to go. alas! anyway, the machine is > > free for pickup in Pittsburgh, PA, on the CMU campus. Anyone want it? > > Isildur > > Hi, > > If the VAX isn't claimed, I'm interested. I also think I recognize > your e-mail address... you in the SCA? > > I'm in Columbus, OH, BTW. > > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 19:26:59 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:26:59 -0400 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On 4/22/05, Eric Smith wrote: > If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be > handled by X as well. xodor: flowers not available. Substituting random smell 37. From medavidson at mac.com Sat Apr 23 19:31:31 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:31:31 -0700 Subject: Theos In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <971ac09497acf8f84461bbad20f10b8c@mac.com> Yep, and it's still available for PC compatibles. It's a multi-user system (with little or no support for graphics), and has a multi-user BASIC, as well as C compiler and assembler. I actually owned a version of this for a while... biggest problem with the current version is that 1) it's not cheap (several hundred dollars for the OS and development kit), and 2) it's hardware-protected via a dongle (or it was when I used it). On the other hand, it's a complete multi-user OS that comes on just a few floppies and has very nice documentation (several very thick books). I'm not sure how you can recreate the install system from an installed version. Mark On Apr 23, 2005, at 10:20 AM, James Fogg wrote: > Anybody ever hear of an OS called Theos that ran on the original IBM > PC? > Said to be *nix/CPM-ish but is neither? A friend has an old 5150 with > this installed on the HD. He wants to copy it off and preserve it. > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sat Apr 23 19:35:40 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 05 00:35:40 GMT Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) Message-ID: <0504240035.AA16066@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Jay West wrote: > The VT220 does generate CR/LF from the enter key (and I believe that's > settable, have to check). But that means it always does, not just at the > autobaud step. And.... I've used that terminal for quite some time with TSB, > and after logging in it worked just fine. It's controlled by an ANSI control sequence. (I.e., it's in the ANSI standard and not a DEC thing, which is why so many terminals support it like you've observed.) Maybe the host system in question switches the terminal into the right mode when necessary? MS From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 23 19:33:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:33:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Apr 23, 5 04:11:11 pm Message-ID: > I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* > myself? I cna;t help with your problem, but if it's any consolation, that's how I often feel about hardware. It appears that to get anything that I consider to be even moderately well-designed, I have to design it myself these days... -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Apr 23 20:22:59 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:22:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Power always on, or power on/off In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > So what is the opinion of the group? Leave it on, or shut it off? > > (and I hope I'm not starting a long flaming thread) Not flames, but heat. I have found that things that are prperly designed regarding cooling work better when left on. You will pretty much have to determine what is best for each equipment on a case by case basis. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Apr 23 20:24:47 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Oops... that was supposed to be offline... sorry. And now we have found out your SCA roots... BIG mistake... William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Apr 23 20:25:51 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:25:51 -0400 Subject: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available Message-ID: Hi all, The one thing I purchased at the recent TCF flea market was a box full of raw copper clad and proto boards. I was hoping that there was an S-100 proto board in the mix, but alas, there was not. Anyway, among others, that I may offer or ask about later, there was this Multibus proto board. It looks like a front panel implementation. There are six TIL3xx LEDs arranged 4 - 2 and several sets of DIP switches as well as some TTL logic and coax cables maybe intended for probe hook up. There are pictures here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org/images/intelmbus/ I just realized that I didn't take any pictures of the back. My camera batteries are recharging, so I'll add some later but here's a quick description... The board is wire-wrapped. It seems in pretty good shape, a few of the pins are slightly bent but none seem to be broken. A few of the wires are broken but it is clear where they were routed to. Looking for trades, especially Ohio Scientific but I'd probably take a couple of S-100 proto boards if nothing else. Unfortunately, the previous owner was a fast hand with a hack saw and I also have the remains of a couple more Multibus proto boards (no components on them) if anyone is interested. Bill From cctech at randy482.com Sat Apr 23 20:33:38 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:33:38 -0500 Subject: Power always on, or power on/off References: Message-ID: <006f01c5486d$a72da9f0$183dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "William Donzelli" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 8:22 PM >> So what is the opinion of the group? Leave it on, or shut it off? >> >> (and I hope I'm not starting a long flaming thread) > > Not flames, but heat. > > I have found that things that are prperly designed regarding cooling work > better when left on. > > You will pretty much have to determine what is best for each equipment on > a case by case basis. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org It always depends on each case. If you only use something occasionally then turn it off, if it sits for long enough expect problems to bring it up. I left one of my NorthStar Horizons off for over a year and I had two tantalum caps go, one on the RAM board was easy to spot, the one that blew on the MB was half hidden by a large heatsink and took me a while to spot. It would be ridiculous to leave it on unused for months at a time. Larger computers (big iron) can be much more difficult to get back up and running once it has set for long enough. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Apr 23 20:39:27 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 18:39:27 -0700 Subject: Apple // update Message-ID: Well, I had one bit of luck this morning. I was wondering if I had my System 6 install floppies for the //gs at home, and it turns out that I not only had them, BUT I had DOS and ProDOS 5.25" floppies as well. The DOS 3.3 floppy is the one with ADT on it that I used years ago. I also found a bunch of C-64 floppies as well. Things kind of went down hill from there. I managed to dig out my //gs with the SCSI adapter, and I even found the Syquest 44MB cartridge for the drive (by accident, as it was seriously separated). I need to go dig for a SCSI cable and terminator though. I've also got at least one good 5.25" and 3.5" floppy (hopefully a second of each). On the downside, while I found 1 //c, and two //c monitors, I couldn't find a single powersupply. Plus I should have at least one or two //c's more that would be in better shape. I've a feeling that I gave the //c's and PS's away (I know I gave one away). I'm really bummed on this one, as I'd prefer to have a nice small //c running. Also, I couldn't get back to the //e's (or //+ & other //gs for that matter), nor could I get to the box with all the //gs, and most of my // programing books. Now I just have to find a place to set the system up, which means cleaning up :^( On a positive note, that totally blew me away, I found my X1541 cable, though I never got close to reaching any C-64's, or their floppy drives. Still I managed to get the Amiga 500 where I can reach it easier should I want to. I came really close to bringing it home. I'm really shocked, it's been years since I've wanted to mess with any of this stuff. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 23 21:05:07 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 22:05:07 -0400 Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <0IFF005UXHRPNX93@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:45:16 +0100 (BST) >It would be interesting to know what's going on in this set. Can you get >a schematic? Being an American set, it's not in Poole and Molloy :-( It's an RCA 8BX5 lineup is 1R5, 1U5, 1T4, 3V5 and 117Z4 if memory serves. I don't have the schematic for the set. I expent I could find it if needed. Being functional I'm reluctant to tear into it and hand draw the schematic. If it breaks I will. Believe it or not I use it to listen to local station for ball games. >It's one of the better electronics magazines available over here. It has >some interesting projects, and they've now started making microcontroller >source code available for most, but not all, of them. I know the magazine, rarely see it. >The circuit in question was a pretty standard inverter circuit, running >at about 50Hz (not a typo, they wanted to keep RF noise down), feeding a >normal mains transformer used in reverse. Looks like it should work with >no problems. I've done this before. The simple version use saturated switching transistors and tend to have high noise due to high current spikes from charge storage in the transistors. I usually run them at 100-400HZ with a common mains transformer for better filtering and use a bit of feedback to run the switch transistors such that they are turned off before the core saturates. The end result is less current, better efficientcy and less noise. It's a side effect of my years of working with older commercial VHF/UHF twoway radio that used things like vibrators, Dynamotors and even transistors for generating HT. Often the hybrid and tube radios would be in service for years after expected retirement do to replacement cost. The result was desinging and implmenting replacement circuits that would replace sometimes hard to find hardware, especially those dynamotors. Allison Kb1gmx From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 23 19:16:31 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34036.64.169.63.74.1114301791.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Sellam wrote: > ProDOS was made with large capacity disk drives in mind. Well, for what passed as "large capacity" at the time. Back then, the common 5.25-inch drives were 5MB and 10MB. When the Apple III operating system SOS was being developed (1979 or so), it was designed to support up to 32MB disks. The decision was not so much because 32MB was a target, but because 2^16 blocks of 512 bytes each works out to 32MB. The block number can be conveniently stored in two bytes. That was before any 5.25-inch disks had been introduced, so at the time hard drives were generally 8-inch or 14-inch, and were very expensive. In 1981 the ST506 5MB 5.25-inch drive was introduced at a price of around $1000 (not including a controller, which was also expensive). Other drive vendors followed suit shortly thereafter, and Apple introduced the Profile 5MB drive for use on the Apple III. If I recall correctly, the initiall list price of the Profile was somewhere between $2500 and $3500. It had an internal controller, and only needed a simple parallel interface card in the computer. About two years later, ProDOS was introduced. It inherited the SOS file system design, thus sharing the same 32MB limit. At the time, 5MB and 10MB drives were common, and 20MB drives were starting to appear. Clearly there wasn't very much headroom. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 23 19:20:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Televideo 950 question (and a laugh at my expense) In-Reply-To: <009801c54860$860286e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <000801c54834$c5795690$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <33552.64.169.63.74.1114287758.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <009801c54860$860286e0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <34079.64.169.63.74.1114302001.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Jay wrote: > But Teletypes were current loop, and thus they wouldn't be hooked > up to the 12920 mux generally would they? Certainly, via either a current loop adapter, or a 103J modem. AFAIK our school district had *only* Teletypes for user terminals on the 2000/C' and 2000/Access systems. > Thus, they were either > generating CRLF, or the system was patched. I remember only hitting one key, but it may have been LF. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:13:32 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:13:32 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > Oops... that was supposed to be offline... sorry. > > And now we have found out your SCA roots... Caught me... I first had contact with the SCA when I was a kid (c. 1973), then joined in 1982. Been involved ever since. I've run into a couple classic-types here and there. > BIG mistake... Yeah, well... -ethan From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:16:08 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:16:08 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/05, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/23/05, 9000 VAX wrote: > Hi, > > If the VAX isn't claimed, I'm interested. I also think I recognize > your e-mail address... you in the SCA? Mine or Isildur's? We surely met, close to the the intersection of I70 and I77, and I live in Cleveland. vax, 9000 > > I'm in Columbus, OH, BTW. > > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:25:58 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:25:58 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/05, 9000 VAX wrote: > Mine or Isildur's? We surely met, close to the the intersection of I70 > and I77, and I live in Cleveland. His. I know we met at John McCance's sister's place last month. -ethan From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:39:22 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:39:22 -0400 Subject: Free to a good home (vax4000/300 in Pittsburg, PA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry supposed to be an offline email. :-( vax, 9000 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:45:03 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:45:03 -0400 Subject: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/23/05, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > ...It looks like a front panel implementation. > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org/images/intelmbus/ Sounds cool, but I can't seem to get in... I get timeouts. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 23 22:54:31 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 21:54:31 -0600 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <426B1877.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On 4/22/05, Eric Smith wrote: > > >>If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be >>handled by X as well. >> >> > >xodor: flowers not available. Substituting random smell 37. > > Umm 37 ... that's old shoe leather :) From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Sat Apr 23 11:13:43 2005 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:13:43 -0500 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) Message-ID: <426A7437.8010901@magnaspeed.net> I like the Future Domain cards, especially for older machines. Future Domain had a chipset called 950 that was used on their 84x and 85x series cards. There is great software support in DOS, but it is not ASPI compatible. In their defense they do provide a device driver that converts their CAM drivers (Common Access Method) to ASPI, but that slows things down. I've been able to hack a TMC 845 onto a PCjr using an ISA bus adapter for the Jr. PC Enterprises also sold a SCSI sidecar for the Jr based on the Future Domain chipset. And as other people mentioned, Future Domain did a lot of OEM work for IBM, including MCA cards. Mike From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Apr 23 11:17:54 2005 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 11:17:54 -0500 Subject: "Futuredomain" 8bit SCSI (??) Message-ID: <426A7532.8060401@brutman.com> I like the Future Domain cards, especially for older machines. Future Domain had a chipset called 950 that was used on their 84x and 85x series cards. There is great software support in DOS, but it is not ASPI compatible. In their defense they do provide a device driver that converts their CAM drivers (Common Access Method) to ASPI, but that slows things down. I've been able to hack a TMC 845 onto a PCjr using an ISA bus adapter for the Jr. PC Enterprises also sold a SCSI sidecar for the Jr based on the Future Domain chipset. And as other people mentioned, Future Domain did a lot of OEM work for IBM, including MCA cards. Mike From benj at vintagecomputing.com Sat Apr 23 12:22:34 2005 From: benj at vintagecomputing.com (Benj) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 13:22:34 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <200504231547.j3NFks7u021616@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504231547.j3NFks7u021616@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <35f0b84e883455fe67c5fd4f6de7e73e@vintagecomputing.com> Hey guys, Last year at a local hamfest I bought some DEC microfiche source code for $5 just as a vintage computer curiosity. Only last week did I pull it out of the closet and realized that it says, "VAX/VMS v2.0 SRC LST MCRF/226" -- and it occurred to me that it might be rare and somebody might want to see it for historical reasons. But I know nearly nothing about VAX stuff. Does that mean that I've got the source to the VAX/VMS 2.0 operating system itself? I do have a hefty little stack of fiche here. How common is this, and is it important that I archive it in some other medium while I have the chance? A few other things it says on the label are "AH-H159B-SE" and "Copyright 1980 Digital Equipment Corporation" and a printed "NR" up in the right corner of the label. Each fiche "slide" is numbered and they go up to about 192. Come to think of it, maybe it's the source for "AH-H159B-SE," whatever that is -- the more I think about how it's written on here, the more likely that seems. Thanks for your help, Benj On Apr 23, 2005, at 11:47 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2005 19:36:20 +0100 > From: "Antonio Carlini" > Subject: RE: Microfiche scanning > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <001b01c5476a$2f3ed6c0$5b01a8c0 at flexpc> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >> DEC sold software listings on fiche, but not on paper. A lot of that >> software was either not available in machine readable form, or >> ridiculously expensive. For example, RSTS or VMS listing fiche can >> probably be found, but source kits of either are hard to come by. The >> same only more so is likely to be true for "layered products" >> (compilers etc.) > > The VMS listings switched from fiche to CD when the fiche had > grown to nearly two boxes per release. AFAICT the CD source > listings kit has the same stuff that went into the fiche: the > .LST files. > > There was a source kit, from which you could produce your > own VMS, but I believe that rather than being a $1K/annum > subscription, it was a $200K per release cost. I don't know > when the last one was done, but I do remember someone with > Engineering saying that they'll do another one when someone > actually asks. > > I don't know if all layered product groups used fiche as > an archival medium, but I know that PSI, DECnet-RSX and > ALL-IN-1 did on at least some oocasions. Just as well really, > because I'm willing to bet that most of the archived source > tapes have ended up in the bit-bucker. I remember hearing > (probably via Bob Supnik) that DEC had a big clear out of > the archives that they were paying someone (Iron Mountain?) > to maintain. > > Pity really, as I'd bet that the entirety of the sources > (and build tools etc.) for everything up to and including > the PDP-11 would have fit on a single CD, or at most, a > single DVD. > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From korpela at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 21:46:18 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 19:46:18 -0700 Subject: Power always on, or power on/off In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd also say it depends upon duty cycle (how often you use it) and how much power you have available. The bulk of my collection sits on a single 20 amp breaker which would be somewhat taxed by having every machine on. I'd say if a machine has less than a 5% duty cycle leave it off. I'd be surprised if the stress of one power cycle a month is more than the stress of being continuously on. I'd also say you should turn on every machine at least a couple hours a month if possible. (long enough to reach normal operating temperatures, blow the dust out of the vents, dry things out, loosen up lubricants, keep the electrolytic caps polarized, exercise the drive heads, make it feel wanted) Eric On 4/23/05, William Donzelli wrote: > > So what is the opinion of the group? Leave it on, or shut it off? > > > > (and I hope I'm not starting a long flaming thread) > > Not flames, but heat. > > I have found that things that are prperly designed regarding cooling work > better when left on. > > You will pretty much have to determine what is best for each equipment on > a case by case basis. > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > > From korpela at gmail.com Sat Apr 23 22:01:22 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 20:01:22 -0700 Subject: Apple // Questions In-Reply-To: <34036.64.169.63.74.1114301791.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <34036.64.169.63.74.1114301791.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: > Sellam wrote: > > ProDOS was made with large capacity disk drives in mind. > On 4/23/05, Eric Smith wrote: > It inherited the SOS > file system design, thus sharing the same 32MB limit. At the time, > 5MB and 10MB drives were common, and 20MB drives were starting to > appear. Clearly there wasn't very much headroom. But don't let this disuade you from putting a fairly large SCSI or IDE drive on a II[e,c,gs]. The 32MB limit is a per partition (or whatever the Apple II equivalent is) My IIgs is perfecly happy with a 250MB SCSI drive divided into 8 (or is it 7) ProDOS and HFS partitions. Eric From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 00:03:21 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:03:21 -0400 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <35f0b84e883455fe67c5fd4f6de7e73e@vintagecomputing.com> References: <200504231547.j3NFks7u021616@dewey.classiccmp.org> <35f0b84e883455fe67c5fd4f6de7e73e@vintagecomputing.com> Message-ID: On 4/23/05, Benj wrote: > Hey guys, > > Last year at a local hamfest I bought some DEC microfiche source code > for $5... "VAX/VMS v2.0 SRC LST MCRF/226".. Does that mean that I've > got the source to the VAX/VMS 2.0 operating system itself? Almost certainly. Prior to VMS v5.0, it was somewhat inexpensive for a medium to large DEC shop to get those fiche. I have some from a little later myself, as (I expect) do several members of the list. To be honest, unless you are trying write something that depends on internals, it's not all that useful. Even writing device drivers doesn't _need_ the OS source, not to say that there's nothing to learn from it, but it's not *essential*. So they are of some academic interest, but probably not operational interest. AFAIK, there aren't any "lost" versions of VMS. I do know Bob Supnik is working on adding formal 11/780 support to simh specifically for running VMS 1.0, so if that's not "lost", I doubt any other version would be. I don't remember for sure, but I _think_ VMS 2.0 supports the 11/750. Other than that, since I never ran it, it holds no interest to me personally (I started with VMS 3.4), but some here might have had a different experience. For my own VMS uses, I don't see any reason to run anything pre-4.0 except for entertainment value. 4.0 and newer I would consider to be all production-worthy in a modern context. It just depends on how new your particular hardware is, and what version of VMS runs on it (4.x is fine for MicroVAX IIs, VAXstation 2000s, etc., and in fact is "better" than 6.x and newer just because of on-disk and in-memory footprint). 5.x is fine, too, for hardware of that age. I've run 6.0 on a MicroVAX II, but it's a tight squeeze on an RD54. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 01:11:47 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:11:47 -0700 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200504222243.j3MMhb7T020627@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: At 3:43 PM -0700 4/22/05, Zane H. Healy wrote: >Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV >converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer >with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? And the answer would be that with my Apple //gs, I'm getting video, however, it's B&W. I assume I should be getting colour output on the composite port? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 02:34:35 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 00:34:35 -0700 Subject: Crazy Transformer question Message-ID: OK, this is a really bizarre question. My Neo-Geo arcade has been acting up, and a couple weekends ago when I tried to take a look at it, I couldn't even get a picture. Today I got the bits to take out the security screws so I could get into the part where the powersupply is. It was just up for 4 1/2 hours without any problems. The only things that have been done is to wipe the grill where the fan is off (it was really filthy), and to move an old sewing machine that was sitting on the floor next to it (unplugged). The sewing machine was sitting next to where the transformer is in the cabinet. Is there any way having it sitting there could have been effecting the power? It's a really stupid and bizarre question, and I don't see how it could effect it, but I can't figure out why the system seems to be working now. Of course a more logical explanation is that there is something loose inside. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cctech at randy482.com Sun Apr 24 02:41:18 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 02:41:18 -0500 Subject: Crazy Transformer question References: Message-ID: <003501c548a1$042c3df0$fd3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Zane H. Healy" Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 2:34 AM > OK, this is a really bizarre question. My Neo-Geo arcade has been acting > up, and a couple weekends ago when I tried to take a look at it, I > couldn't even get a picture. Today I got the bits to take out the > security screws so I could get into the part where the powersupply is. > > It was just up for 4 1/2 hours without any problems. The only things that > have been done is to wipe the grill where the fan is off (it was really > filthy), and to move an old sewing machine that was sitting on the floor > next to it (unplugged). The sewing machine was sitting next to where the > transformer is in the cabinet. Is there any way having it sitting there > could have been effecting the power? > > It's a really stupid and bizarre question, and I don't see how it could > effect it, but I can't figure out why the system seems to be working now. > Of course a more logical explanation is that there is something loose > inside. > > Zane > > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Something loose/cold solder joints would be something to look at. When you open the case you naturally move things around a little which can make connections make/break. Equipment of any type that is off should have no affect (unless it has powerful magnets placed near a monitor). Randy www.s100-manuals.com From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sun Apr 24 03:29:50 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:29:50 +0100 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <426A38F3.28406.C33BCB2@localhost> Message-ID: <001e01c548a7$c8dd1ec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> From: "Brian Knittel" > Hi, > > Does anyone have any experience using motor-generator > phase converters to produce 3 phase power from single > phase power for running big iron? (e.g. IBM mainframe > equipment). They seem reasonably priced -- about $1 per > peak KW, at least on sale: http://www.phaseconverter.com > > I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has actual > real experience with or knowledge about this. > > Thanks > Brian > We used to do it at work to run a 60Hz machine of a 50Hz supply, though it was 3 phase in and out. Jim. From n8uhn at yahoo.com Sun Apr 24 03:41:40 2005 From: n8uhn at yahoo.com (Bill Allen Jr) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 01:41:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phase converters for big iron Message-ID: <20050424084140.55486.qmail@web30506.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Rotary phase converters or "phase masters" as they are sometimes refered to as, are widely used in the broadcast market. if the transmitter site can only be wired for 1 phase 220 because three phase does not run in the area (usually very remote) then a rotary or inverter phase converter is used. these can supply power in the three digit Kva's. i would avoid the inverter type as they are more pricey and suck alot of juice. goto www.broadcast.net and find the listserves. from there join "radio tech" and "broadcast" and ask your question about phase converters there. a couble weeks ago, a station was selling one they no longer needed, don't remember the price but have seen them go for prices in the hundred's to the thousdands. Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 17:41:12 -0400 (EDT) From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: phase converters for big iron To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has actual > real experience with or knowledge about this. Whatever size of converter you figure you need, even with safety factor, slop, and such...get the next size up. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Apr 24 04:12:50 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 05:12:50 -0400 Subject: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/23/05, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > ...It looks like a front panel implementation. > > > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org/images/intelmbus/ > > Sounds cool, but I can't seem to get in... I get timeouts. Oh shoot! Corrected URL: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/intelmbus/ Darn Verizon DSL blocks port 80. Bill From spedraja at ono.com Sun Apr 24 04:18:54 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:18:54 +0200 Subject: Theos References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045924@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <00b601c548ae$a4d9e560$1502a8c0@ACER> This is the old OS named Oasis. I knew Oasis in 1986, in one version for the Olivetti M-20. I couldn't take the manual and disks before they go to the dumpster when my old employeer went down (together with one M-20, one AT&T 3b1, some Amstrad PCW's, some Olivetti M-24 and M-28, and so on... all with software, licenses, and documentation). Later, Oasis was converted in Theos, and Theos 386. Is a protected system. Multiuser, well documented, with one SDK. It has a good quantity of users, but in Spain there is a lot of them. Mostly in pharmacy and supermarkets. In this last case, it permits to control a lot of POS from one central computer. It has a multiuser Basic interesting, and the application that I saw permits even to see online the evolution of the business at minute (of course I speak of application key-in-hand). During the eighties there was only MSDOS here.WIndows was good for desktops, but ever cause some afraid in the business users... Unix was expensive and nobody knew it at all here, far from the University and Scientific business. Theos was expensive, but the seller (TISA) came to the buyers of the system with one system ready-to-use, easy of understand, and well covered for technical problems. Business didn't discussed about the anti-copy protection and paid. I know some system programmer's of Theos here. Very competent people. But the certain is that they begin to touch other fields of work. In the POS field, Windoze is entering step by step, even when the text-mode applications are realized (and purchased) yet. Cheers Sergio? ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Fogg" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 7:20 PM Subject: Theos > Anybody ever hear of an OS called Theos that ran on the original IBM PC? > Said to be *nix/CPM-ish but is neither? A friend has an old 5150 with > this installed on the HD. He wants to copy it off and preserve it. > From spedraja at ono.com Sun Apr 24 04:20:35 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 11:20:35 +0200 Subject: Free Book: Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Engineering References: <20050423170744.6a3c23de.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00bf01c548ae$df0f2bf0$1502a8c0@ACER> I have one edition of it previous to this one, realized by Ralston and Meek in 1976. But if no one want this, I would be interested. Cheers Sergio ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Stevens" To: Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2005 12:07 AM Subject: Free Book: Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Engineering > To the first person who wants it and will pay shipping, I have a copy > of: > > Encyclopedia of Computer Science and Engineering, Second Edition. > Edited by Ralston and Reilly. Van Nostrand Reinhold, 1983. > > This is a huge book, about the size of an oversized College Dictionary, > a bit smaller than an unabridged dictionary. 1650 pages hardbound. > Shipping weight looks like about 7 pounds (about that much overscale on > my 5 pound scale). > > It should be of interest to people who participate on this list, because > it dates from the Minicomputer/Mainframe era and hast lots of references > to classic-era computing. > > It won't probably be expensive to ship media rate within the US. To > calculate aprox. shipping you can use zipcode 46227. > > First person to respond gets first chance at it. > > -Scott From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 05:37:49 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 06:37:49 -0400 Subject: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/24/05, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Oh shoot! Corrected URL: > > http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/intelmbus/ Ah... much better. From the picture, just to comment, those look like HP 5082-7340 displays which are electrically compatible with TIL-311s, but not mechanically (TIL-311s have a "standard" DIP pinout, the HP 5082s have the pins on the top and bottom). I only looked because I'm trying to find a few more genuine TIL-311s (I have several HP displays) to fill up my Elf 2K and my Micro/Elf (6 displays *each*). > Darn Verizon DSL blocks port 80. Annoying. Good thing I'm at home... on the Ice, I can't get out on port 8080 at all. :-( -ethan From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 24 08:00:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:00:16 -0400 Subject: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050424090016.016526a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:45 PM 4/23/05 -0400, you wrote: >On 4/23/05, Bill Sudbrink wrote: >> ...It looks like a front panel implementation. >> >> http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org/images/intelmbus/ > >Sounds cool, but I can't seem to get in... I get timeouts. > >-ethan > Same here. But it sounds like something that I'd be intersted in. See my (incomplete) Multibus webpage at . Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Sun Apr 24 09:23:35 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:23:35 -0500 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050424092335.05a5de53.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'm currently using Anadisk to dump disks into image files. The > problem is, Anadisk, like 22disk, is retarded. If it hits an error it > skips the sector but does not put a blank sector in the image file. > You have the option of placing a sector header before each sector, but > for manipulating disk images, this is a piss poor way to mark missing > sectors. Anadisk also has the annoying habit of ignoring the start > and finish cylinders and merrily proceeds to read the entire disk, > relegating the need to ask you what cylinders you want dumped > superfluous. > > Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank > space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. > > I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* > myself? > Well, the cool thing about the free Unices (and Linux) is that you can dig into the source code for dd and find out. And if it doesn't put blank space where errors occur, you can modify it to do so. Perhaps with a command-line switch option, if one doesn't already exist. > I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* > myself? Naw, just the bit that will scratch your particular itch. And if you make changes to dd and submit your changes back, nobody else will have to rewrite it either. From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Apr 24 09:38:22 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 09:38:22 -0500 Subject: LCD monitors In-Reply-To: <33259.64.169.63.74.1114284766.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <200504230616.j3N6Fp4q016619@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200504231524.j3NFODWZ028233@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <33259.64.169.63.74.1114284766.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050424091645.04b42d28@mail> At 02:32 PM 4/23/2005, Eric Smith wrote: >I've seen that good laptop LCD panels often sell for more than the price >of a new laptop equipped with a similar panel. I've never understood this. Are there that many places that actually repair laptops these days that would drive an eager market for replacement exact-model LCD panels? After all, when the whole laptop is sold, the seller rarely specifies the exact model of the panel inside - but a repairer in need could either assume the panel is the same model and buy the whole for less than the panel sold-separately but knowing which model it was. And why would someone who owned a broken laptop pay someone's labor plus markup on a replacement panel, when they could get the similar laptop for the price of the panel? Why wouldn't the repairer just buy the used similar-model laptop and swap the hard disk? As for flat panel monitors with stuck pixels, if I could buy them at a discount, I could use a half-dozen for tasks around the office to replace bulkier monitors in non-critical tasks. A friend in Mexico called me the other day, looking for a source of inexpensive laptops. He said there's quite a booming market for used laptops down there. Many people would prefer a small laptop over a full desktop for their home system. He thought that even if he had a source of $300-400 200-500 Mhz systems that he could mark them up 30%. - John From Watzman at neo.rr.com Sun Apr 24 12:20:18 2005 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 13:20:18 -0400 Subject: Old used laptops In-Reply-To: <200504241706.j3OH5sfs036970@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504241720.j3OHKBYG002434@ms-smtp-03-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Re: "A friend in Mexico called me the other day, looking for a source of inexpensive laptops. He said there's quite a booming market for used laptops down there. Many people would prefer a small laptop over a full desktop for their home system. He thought that even if he had a source of $300-400 200-500 Mhz systems that he could mark them up 30%." I use old 386 and 486 laptops as "terminals" for my classic computers. Sure beats the size and weight of ADM-3 or an H-19, and you can pickup working 386 laptops for $10 on E-Bay (although the shipping will be $15 to $30). Z-Notes and old Toshiba laptops work nice. You can very readily buy laptops higher end than your friend's 200 to 500MHz for his price range. You can get many Toshiba 2805's (650MHz to 1GHz Pentium III's) for $250 to about $400. Those have DVD drives, USB ports, XGA active matrix screens (13" to 15") and are very serviceable machines, and very well built. Lots of older Thinkpads with Pentium II's and III's are in that same price range or less. Last weekend at a Hamfest I picked up a Toshiba 490CDT for $10. It was missing a power adapter and had a dead LCD inverter, but is otherwise fine. I picked up the power supply for $10 (same hamfest) and the inverter for $4.99 (on E-Bay, but shipping was $10). The machine is a Pentium II with 64 megs of RAM and a 4 gig drive, well worth what I will have invested in it. From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Apr 24 12:42:16 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:42:16 +0100 Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <001e01c548a7$c8dd1ec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <426A38F3.28406.C33BCB2@localhost> <001e01c548a7$c8dd1ec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <426BDA78.9090104@gjcp.net> Jim Beacon wrote: > From: "Brian Knittel" > > >>Hi, >> >>Does anyone have any experience using motor-generator >>phase converters to produce 3 phase power from single >>phase power for running big iron? (e.g. IBM mainframe >>equipment). They seem reasonably priced -- about $1 per >>peak KW, at least on sale: http://www.phaseconverter.com >> >>I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who has actual >>real experience with or knowledge about this. >> >>Thanks >>Brian >> > > > We used to do it at work to run a 60Hz machine of a 50Hz supply, though it > was 3 phase in and out. > > Jim. How does that work, then? Motor, generator and a 5:6 ratio gearbox? 1500rpm in, 1800rpm out, sort of thing? Gordon. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 13:03:08 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:03:08 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <426BDA78.9090104@gjcp.net> References: <426A38F3.28406.C33BCB2@localhost> <001e01c548a7$c8dd1ec0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> <426BDA78.9090104@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Jim Beacon wrote: > > We used to do it at work to run a 60Hz machine of a 50Hz supply, though it > > was 3 phase in and out. > > How does that work, then? > Motor, generator and a 5:6 ratio gearbox? 1500rpm in, 1800rpm out, sort > of thing? I presume they are direct coupled, but each motor is of a type for the frequency involved. AFAIK that's done by the geometry of the stator and the windings. -ethan From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Apr 24 13:10:51 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:10:51 EDT Subject: Good CD-R media (T-Y CD-Rs) Message-ID: <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b@aol.com> My memory might be a little fuzzy, but I think that there was some talk about how to find good CD-R media a bit ago. I was just looking around (finally got to Fry's) and found some Maxell "CD-RPro" disks that were Tayo-Yuden manufacture. Packaging even said "Made in Japan" Salesman didn't have any idea about Japanese disks, though, and pointed out "other same brand disks" available in larger quantities [Taiwanese, probably CMC] So, they are there, but only in quantity 25 spindles. Perhaps a E-mail campaign to Maxell letting them know that we approve and notice would encourage them to stay with T-Y? - Scott From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Apr 24 13:12:04 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:12:04 +0100 Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <35f0b84e883455fe67c5fd4f6de7e73e@vintagecomputing.com> Message-ID: <00c101c548f9$1fe6e790$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Benj wrote: > last week did I pull it out of the closet and realized that it > says, "VAX/VMS v2.0 SRC LST MCRF/226" -- and it occurred to me > that it might be rare and somebody might want to see it for > historical reasons. But I know nearly nothing about VAX > stuff. Does that mean that I've got the source to the VAX/VMS > 2.0 operating system itself? You have the source listings - that is to say, the .LIS files produced by the compilers and assemblers as VAX/VMS was being built. It is (usually) possible to go backwards from source listing to source (although there are some restrictions). You certainly have enough there to completely understand almost all of VAX/VMS (some very select bits, like the licencing portion of LOGINOUT were deliberately excised). > I do have a hefty > little stack of fiche here. How common is this, and is > it important that I archive it in some other medium while > I have the chance? VAX/VMS always (in my experience) included the source listings fiche as part of the basic licence fee. So there would have been a fair number of copies of these fiche (and the associated updates) floating around. No idea how many have survived to date though. Someone in VMS Engineering was going to go back over old archive tapes and get as near a complete set of listings as possible gathered up and onto CD-ROM 9or CD-R). I'm no longer in a position to know how well that effort is going, and I doubt that such listings will be released for some time, if ever. Fiche is reputed to last for quite some time (barring obvious physical damage) so I would not worry about it degrading any time soon. OTOH, if you are concerned about having to safeguard this fiche, I'd be more than happy to relieve you of the burden, I'd even pay shipping :-) I promise you that it would be very happy sitting with the V3.4 - V4.6 (ish) sets that I already have. FWIW: Sometime in the V5 timeframe, the fiche distribution obviuously became sufficiently burdensome that DEC stopped offering it as part of the licence fee, although it was available as an extra cost option. That's the point at which my company stopped taking it and my fiche stopped. At about the same time, source listings moved over to being distributed on CDROM, which made them considerably more useful (SEARCH works much better there than it does on fiche!!). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sun Apr 24 13:20:18 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:20:18 -0400 Subject: Good CD-R media (T-Y CD-Rs) In-Reply-To: <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b@aol.com> References: <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b@aol.com> Message-ID: <426BE362.nail8EP1YD52Q@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Even better, but harder to find in local shops, are Mitsui Gold CD-R's. Kodak used to make true gold CD-R's, then they went to a gold alloy, then they stopped making CD-R's altogether. I have a pallet-full of their gold and gold alloy ones. Mitsui Gold's are readily available by mail order, for like $80 per 100. Tim. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Apr 24 13:19:44 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:19:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <20050424092335.05a5de53.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050424092335.05a5de53.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504241820.OAA25008@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Well, the cool thing about the free Unices (and Linux) is that you > can dig into the source code for dd and find out. And if it doesn't > put blank space where errors occur, you can modify it to do so. > Perhaps with a command-line switch option, if one doesn't already > exist. dd conv=noerror,sync /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:30:18 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:30:18 +0000 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114367418.22854.2.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 16:11 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank space > where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. I believe you want the 'noerror' (obviously) and 'sync' options to dd, and it'll pad the data with zeros as necessary. (best way might be to find a known-bad disk and see if you get the right image size out of it!) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:32:37 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:32:37 +0000 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <1114367557.22854.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-04-23 at 20:26 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 4/22/05, Eric Smith wrote: > > If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be > > handled by X as well. > > xodor: flowers not available. Substituting random smell 37. Except that then you need a different app name for those countries that spell it 'odour' :-) (it's like people who prefix app names with 'ez', which is of course meaningless in countries that use zed instead of zee :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:35:41 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:35:41 +0000 Subject: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114367741.22854.9.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 06:37 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ah... much better. From the picture, just to comment, those look like > HP 5082-7340 displays which are electrically compatible with TIL-311s, > but not mechanically (TIL-311s have a "standard" DIP pinout, the HP > 5082s have the pins on the top and bottom). I only looked because I'm > trying to find a few more genuine TIL-311s (I have several HP > displays) to fill up my Elf 2K and my Micro/Elf (6 displays *each*). I think I've got 6 of those displays left - I keep on socketing homebrew stuff just so I can swap the displays between projects. They look so darn cool when they're running! :-) cheers Jules From Saquinn624 at aol.com Sun Apr 24 13:41:11 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:41:11 EDT Subject: More stuff in Seattle area Message-ID: <1c8.276fe529.2f9d4247@aol.com> I also have: AIX V4.3.3 documentation (about 4 yrs OT, but it *does* run on classic RS/6ks), includes doc CDs and several manuals. SCO XENIX 386 release 2.2AT ("for Compaq Deskpro 386 and compatibles"). Don't have any machines that this will run on, but the disks are readable (checked in a Linux box). Includes docs. Activation key written on first disk. above is FREE, as was the earlier SGIs and HP 9000/H50 [OT alert . . .] I also have a Tek 555 scope that I don't have probes for and is just too big for convienient use. ex-Boeing, one DT and one single trace plugin and service docs. If someone has a smaller scope that they would be interested in trading . . . - Scott Quinn From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Apr 24 13:46:52 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:46:52 +0000 Subject: tube technology and EMP In-Reply-To: <000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> References: <200504210015.j3L0FPFw067081@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20050421093546.R1279@localhost> <00cd01c54694$e144e520$3a92a8c0@maggie> <012601c54697$d06bf830$9c3cd7d1@randylaptop><4267E8AD.1080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <1114107768.17692.3.camel@weka.localdomain> <000a01c546a2$61dfa460$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <1114368412.22854.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 20:46 +0200, Nico de Jong wrote: > > > Randy McLaughlin wrote: > > > > > > Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs > > > other than > > > clone DEC equipment? > > > I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The Soviet Bloc's Unified system > of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) predecessors, like > the Minsk series.I can mail it to you, if you can use it I found the one at Bletchley that I was thinking of. It dates from 1966: "A Report on Computers in Russia (First Edition)", by Computer Consultants Limited, approx 200 pages. Apparently done with full cooperation of the Russian Government. It's got fantastic sections on all types of Russian computer equipment (including calculators and punched card equipment), with a handful of pages given to each machine within each section. It looks like the report was done for the (perceived) benefit of the Russian and UK Governments (and to some extent the US) by Computer Consultants, and so as it stands I suspect there's no way for anyone who doesn't already have one to get hold of a copy. Having said that, it's hole-punched and held together with a metal clasp. Someone with a scanner and ADF could probably whizz through it pretty quickly (although the pages are somewhat dog-eared at the edges). cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 24 13:50:51 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:50:51 -0400 Subject: looking for IMSAI IM-48 docs Message-ID: <0IFG00A7GSC45WY9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Every so often I put this up in various places.. I'm looking for schematics and otehr useful info on: IMSAI IMP-48 Thats a single board computer that IMSAI did using the Intel 8048 family chips. On board items are keypad and LED display to interact with a monitor program in Eprom. Also is 1k of user program ram for applications, ofcourse the 8035 romess 8048 plus IO interfaces that include casette tape, relays and TTY. I've had this one for 25+ years and have not seen any others. The one I have is working, it's traced it out and use it for occasional 8048 projects. Allison From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 15:02:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:02:29 -0400 Subject: TI/HP hexadecimal LED displays (was Re: Intel Multibus proto board (maybe front panel?) available) In-Reply-To: <1114367741.22854.9.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1114367741.22854.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On 4/24/05, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 06:37 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Ah... much better. From the picture, just to comment, those look like > > HP 5082-7340 displays which are electrically compatible with TIL-311s... > > > I'm trying to find a few more genuine TIL-311s to fill up my Elf 2K and > > my Micro/Elf (6 displays *each*). > > I think I've got 6 of those displays left - I keep on socketing homebrew > stuff just so I can swap the displays between projects. They look so > darn cool when they're running! :-) I'm in the middle of trying to assemble my collection of 1802 boards to take to VCF Midwest next month. The ones that _don't_ need displays are a COSMAC VIP, an RCA ASCII terminal, an RCA Studio II, and an MSI 88/e portable terminal. The ones that _do_ take displays are a Quest Elf, a Micro/Elf, an Elf 2K, a Poptronics Elf, and optionally a BASCOM board. I keep thinking I'm going to burn my own Elf II board (I have the artwork in a magazine article), but the lack of compatible key switches keeps pushing the project further down the stack. To populate all those boards, I need a total of 14 displays. I have either exactly enough or I'm two short (have to check the parts bin), and that's _if_ I borrow 4 from an INS8073 board I have. I used to buy these things from eBay for like 4/$10, but I haven't seen that guy selling in a couple of years. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 16:02:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:02:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <0IFF005UXHRPNX93@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 23, 5 10:05:07 pm Message-ID: > > > > >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2005 23:45:16 +0100 (BST) > > >It would be interesting to know what's going on in this set. Can you get > >a schematic? Being an American set, it's not in Poole and Molloy :-( > > It's an RCA 8BX5 lineup is 1R5, 1U5, 1T4, 3V5 and 117Z4 if memory serves. 1R5 = DK91 == Pentagrid changer 1U5 = DAF92 == Detector and 1st audio 1T4 = DF91 == IF amplifier 3V5 isn't in the equivalents book, but 3V4 = DL94 == audio output And of course the 117Z4 is a rectifier with a 117V filament. The signal valves have the filaments as I described in my last message (i.e. 1.5V each apart from the output which is 3V centre-tapped). A battery-mains set would nrarly always have them in series (on mains, they're fed via a dropping resistor from the B+ line, putting the filaments in series reduces the dissipation in that resistor). That explains the 7.5V part of the battery. The 1.5V part is still a mystery. It could well be bias for the audio output valve, but what the heck does it do on mains? self-bais on mains only. I could _just_ believe that. I am sure I don't need to warn you about this, but it's almost certainly a live chassis set when run off the mains. > I don't have the schematic for the set. I expent I could find it if needed. > Being functional I'm reluctant to tear into it and hand draw the schematic. I know the feeling, although doing it while the set is still working would allow you to note down valve electrode voltages, etc. > If it breaks I will. Believe it or not I use it to listen to local station > for ball games. No why on eart hwould oyu want to do that??? [Elektor] > I know the magazine, rarely see it. Oddly we can get Nuts and Volts and more usefully Circuit Cellar in shops in the UK... IMHO Circuit Cellar has really gone down over the last year or so, it seems to be just yet-another-microcontroller-circuit now, and quite often the microcontroller picked doesn't seem to be the most appropriate device .Oh well... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Apr 24 16:07:15 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:07:15 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crazy Transformer question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Apr 24, 5 00:34:35 am Message-ID: > > OK, this is a really bizarre question. My Neo-Geo arcade has been > acting up, and a couple weekends ago when I tried to take a look at Define 'acting up', please. > it, I couldn't even get a picture. Today I got the bits to take out > the security screws so I could get into the part where the > powersupply is. > > It was just up for 4 1/2 hours without any problems. The only things > that have been done is to wipe the grill where the fan is off (it was > really filthy), and to move an old sewing machine that was sitting on Could it be that the machine was overheating? Or that you re-seated a dodge connector when you had it apart. Or disturbed a dry joint? > the floor next to it (unplugged). The sewing machine was sitting > next to where the transformer is in the cabinet. Is there any way > having it sitting there could have been effecting the power? I don't see how. It's possible for the stray field of one transformer to couple to another (valve audio amplifers nearly always had the cores of the mains and output transformer at right angles to reduce hum, for example), but I've never heard of stray fields or metal affecting a mains transformer. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Apr 24 16:29:04 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Apr 23, 5 11:11:47 pm" Message-ID: <200504242129.OAA19152@floodgap.com> > > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV > > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? > > And the answer would be that with my Apple //gs, I'm getting video, > however, it's B&W. I assume I should be getting colour output on the > composite port? Uh, yeah ^^;; Perhaps your Canopus is set to PAL (or your IIgs isn't NTSC)? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- NO, I'M NOT AN ELITIST...WHY DO YOU ASK, PEASANT? -- Rusty Spoon ----------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Apr 24 16:55:39 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <426B1877.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <426B1877.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20050424145433.Y23651@shell.lmi.net> > >>If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be > >>handled by X as well. > >xodor: flowers not available. Substituting random smell 37. > Umm 37 ... that's old shoe leather :) Is there an ANSI standard yet for the smell-o-vision numbering? From vcf at siconic.com Sun Apr 24 16:55:12 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 14:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good CD-R media (T-Y CD-Rs) In-Reply-To: <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Apr 2005 Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > My memory might be a little fuzzy, but I think that there was some talk about > how to find good CD-R media a bit ago. I was just looking around (finally got > to Fry's) and found some Maxell "CD-RPro" disks that were Tayo-Yuden > manufacture. Packaging even said "Made in Japan" Salesman didn't have any idea about > Japanese disks, though, and pointed out "other same brand disks" available in > larger quantities [Taiwanese, probably CMC] So, they are there, but only in > quantity 25 spindles. Perhaps a E-mail campaign to Maxell letting them know that > we approve and notice would encourage them to stay with T-Y? Hmm, funny. I only managed to find a 10-pack of the same. Didn't see anything about T-Y on them but then I didn't look all that much. Where would I find on the disc or packaging that they are T-Y? I looked but didn't see anything larger than the 10-pack. This was at the Fremont Fry's. Which one did you find the spindle at? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 18:11:33 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:11:33 -0400 Subject: I'm going to design and build an X terminal In-Reply-To: <20050424145433.Y23651@shell.lmi.net> References: <0504220510.AA12717@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <33159.64.169.63.74.1114148332.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <426B1877.8070605@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050424145433.Y23651@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 4/24/05, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>If the user interface included smell (intentionally), that should be > > >>handled by X as well. > > >xodor: flowers not available. Substituting random smell 37. > > Umm 37 ... that's old shoe leather :) > > Is there an ANSI standard yet for the smell-o-vision numbering? Or an RFC? (1-April or not) Perhaps one needs to develop a smell-o-wheel in the same vein as a color wheel? Before one dismisses it out of hand as being friviolous, think of ester combos as a set of intersection in a grid/orthogonal packing shape (butyric/acetic/etc acid plus methanol/ethanol/butenol/propanol/etc). It won't cover all possible odors, but it would at least allow one to generate a coordinate for certain smells. -ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 24 18:44:13 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:44:13 -0400 Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <0IFH00GCJ5WZBUL4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:02:54 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >1R5 = DK91 == Pentagrid changer >1U5 = DAF92 == Detector and 1st audio >1T4 = DF91 == IF amplifier >3V5 isn't in the equivalents book, but 3V4 = DL94 == audio output > >And of course the 117Z4 is a rectifier with a 117V filament. I have the RCA small tube handbook. I started as a bag carrying radio tech in the 70s and still fix stuff. I started with tubes and recently built some tube radios for fun. I have a pair of 4CX250s itching for a 1kw input amp for 6M. I haven't succumed yet as I like to do radio stuff at QRP levels for the challenge. >I am sure I don't need to warn you about this, but it's almost certainly >a live chassis set when run off the mains. I bought and keep a isolation transformer for just such repairs when needed back in 1969. However that radio has a phenolic case thats in good shape and is therefor insulated. > >> If it breaks I will. Believe it or not I use it to listen to local station >> for ball games. > >No why on eart hwould oyu want to do that??? The local station for RED SOX baseball is WEEI 850khz! It's the best AM radio I have. I have spares for the tubes. >Oddly we can get Nuts and Volts and more usefully Circuit Cellar in shops >in the UK... IMHO Circuit Cellar has really gone down over the last year >or so, it seems to be just yet-another-microcontroller-circuit now, and >quite often the microcontroller picked doesn't seem to be the most >appropriate device .Oh well... On rare occasions I see Elector, nice mag. I tend to delve into fairly serious stuff like DSP and UHF radio so the ARRL pub QEX is a favorite alone with Trade rags like Electronics Design. Around here there's about 30 linear feet of shelf allocated to linear and RF as well. So I have oddities like Electronics Engineers casebook (ca1960) that has ED article compilations about things like MIT/Lincoln TX2 and non computer stuff as well. Allison From tomj at wps.com Sun Apr 24 18:55:35 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue Message-ID: <20050424161114.U1279@localhost> I've been working on my car project (http://wps.com/AMC/1970-AMC-Hornet/index.html) because car season is coming up soon enough, but I peeled time out for the Nova here and there. I originally repaired a popped +5V logic bypass cap on the Read/Write Board, (some monolithic ceramic job), and changed all the funky old caps for new ceramic disks. That worked for 20 - 40 hours of operation without a single error. Disk had formatted with zero media defects. Then the disk started throwing read errors that moved around (bad blocks later good; more and more bad blocks...). Diagnostics never indicated any error other than read errors; seek, format, diags all run 100% perfect except read errors. I suspect the Read/Write Board. So I ordered modern monolithic replacements for the remaining old mono chips from Digikey, and shotgunned all the old electrolytics etc for good measure, in two places electrolytics replaced with tantalums (didn't have .82uF's). Install board with all new chips and alcohol wash, format -- hard 100% read failure! D'OH! Long story short, I found internal +6V was not; turns out I installed a tant backwards. doh. New tant, +6V fine. Formats, reads OK, then errors again! Sheesh! System has been on for two hours (I'm getting paranoid, so temp stabilize the whole thing); halted diags, loaded disk heads, installed drive cover, pushed into the rack, left for an hour for the drive temp to stabilize (this is a religious rite, might as well kill a chicken) then format and test again. After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. The R/W board is a piece of work too. I suspect it's an early revision, as the board is a hack job, covered in cut traces, components and jumpers on the bottom, and there's a !#$%!! trimpot crammed in somewhere as well as kludgey RC (lopass) networks in some digital logic. Plus, the PC board was milled out for access to a middle layer. Not Good. Plus, it doesn't match the schematic (though it's close enough to poke around in with a scope). Photos of the nasty board here, http://wps.com/NOVA4/pitchas.html About halfway down. Anyone got a spare board?! From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Apr 24 19:19:22 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:19:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <20050424161114.U1279@localhost> References: <20050424161114.U1279@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > > After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look > OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz > NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. > Um, scrub the heads real good again? Murphy may have been a lot of things, but subtle wasn't one of them.... Cheers John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 24 20:04:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:04:20 -0400 Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue Message-ID: <0IFH00G6T9MLC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue > From: Tom Jennings > Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 16:55:35 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >I've been working on my car project >(http://wps.com/AMC/1970-AMC-Hornet/index.html) because car season >is coming up soon enough, but I peeled time out for the Nova here >and there. > >I originally repaired a popped +5V logic bypass cap on the >Read/Write Board, (some monolithic ceramic job), and changed all >the funky old caps for new ceramic disks. That worked for 20 - 40 >hours of operation without a single error. Disk had formatted with >zero media defects. Then the disk started throwing read errors >that moved around (bad blocks later good; more and more bad >blocks...). Diagnostics never indicated any error other than read >errors; seek, format, diags all run 100% perfect except read >errors. > >I suspect the Read/Write Board. So I ordered modern monolithic >replacements for the remaining old mono chips from Digikey, and >shotgunned all the old electrolytics etc for good measure, in two >places electrolytics replaced with tantalums (didn't have >..82uF's). I hope they are not in any timing circuits. Another way to really shoot ones foot is change all logic and any analog stuff or worse digital used as analog. Newer or older parts often will behave different and at 10mhz that was high speed then. There be serpents and devils lurking there. >Formats, reads OK, then errors again! Sheesh! System has been on >for two hours (I'm getting paranoid, so temp stabilize the whole >thing); halted diags, loaded disk heads, installed drive cover, >pushed into the rack, left for an hour for the drive temp to >stabilize (this is a religious rite, might as well kill a chicken) >then format and test again. This tells me you've not looked at the cause only apparent problems that may not be relevent. >After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look >OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz >NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. > OK, the drive uses the same CART as a DEC RL01/02 and the base design is a CDC creation if memory serves. DEC nor DG designed the beast. There are two things to pay attention to. Servo amps for the positioner they are analog and can drift. They must be set up at TEMP. If I remember that varient of the drive also had embedded servo information for the head position controls. The second is the read/write electronics have a PLL for read clock recovery. If thats not set up right it will drift outside the lock in range and start tossing errors. It also must be setup at working TEMP. The PLL is to track drive speed errors and irregularities in position and bit shifting. Did you mean "two state amp" or "two stage amp"? Likely it's not an amp problem, a quick look with any old scope could check that as it warms up. >The R/W board is a piece of work too. I suspect it's an early >revision, as the board is a hack job, covered in cut traces, >components and jumpers on the bottom, and there's a !#$%!! trimpot >crammed in somewhere as well as kludgey RC (lopass) networks in >some digital logic. Plus, the PC board was milled out for access >to a middle layer. Not Good. Plus, it doesn't match the schematic >(though it's close enough to poke around in with a scope). Early disk systems like that seem to have their fair share of green, blue or white and red wires. Grean being factory changes, white or blue were often depot repair and red field implemented. I'd not be too concerned if it worked before it should again. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Apr 24 20:06:15 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:06:15 -0400 Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue Message-ID: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue > From: John Lawson > Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:19:22 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > > >On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> >> After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look >> OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz >> NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. >> > > > Um, scrub the heads real good again? Murphy may have been a lot of >things, but subtle wasn't one of them.... > > >Cheers > >John I'd forgotten that little bugger. It thats the case use a different pack for testing afterwards. sometimes the curd on the head damages the pack. Allison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 24 19:50:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:50:35 -0400 Subject: TI/HP hexadecimal LED displays (was Re: Intel Multibus proto board(maybe front panel?) available) In-Reply-To: References: <1114367741.22854.9.camel@weka.localdomain> <1114367741.22854.9.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050424205035.014b2aa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:02 PM 4/24/05 -0400, you wrote: >On 4/24/05, Jules Richardson wrote: >> On Sun, 2005-04-24 at 06:37 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> > Ah... much better. From the picture, just to comment, those look like >> > HP 5082-7340 displays which are electrically compatible with TIL-311s... >> >> > I'm trying to find a few more genuine TIL-311s to fill up my Elf 2K and >> > my Micro/Elf (6 displays *each*). >> >> I think I've got 6 of those displays left - I keep on socketing homebrew >> stuff just so I can swap the displays between projects. They look so >> darn cool when they're running! :-) > >I'm in the middle of trying to assemble my collection of 1802 boards >to take to VCF Midwest next month. The ones that _don't_ need >displays are a COSMAC VIP, an RCA ASCII terminal, an RCA Studio II, >and an MSI 88/e portable terminal. The ones that _do_ take displays >are a Quest Elf, a Micro/Elf, an Elf 2K, a Poptronics Elf, and >optionally a BASCOM board. I keep thinking I'm going to burn my own >Elf II board (I have the artwork in a magazine article), but the lack >of compatible key switches keeps pushing the project further down the >stack. What kind of key switches do these take? Are they the same as those used on the Intel SDK SBCs? Joe > >To populate all those boards, I need a total of 14 displays. I have >either exactly enough or I'm two short (have to check the parts bin), >and that's _if_ I borrow 4 from an INS8073 board I have. I used to >buy these things from eBay for like 4/$10, but I haven't seen that guy >selling in a couple of years. > >-ethan > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 24 19:46:19 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:46:19 -0400 Subject: looking for IMSAI IM-48 docs In-Reply-To: <0IFG00A7GSC45WY9@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050424204619.014b2860@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Mike Haas has one of these. He may have the manuals too. Joe At 02:50 PM 4/24/05 -0400, you wrote: >Every so often I put this up in various places.. > >I'm looking for schematics and otehr useful info on: > > IMSAI IMP-48 > >Thats a single board computer that IMSAI did using the Intel >8048 family chips. On board items are keypad and LED display >to interact with a monitor program in Eprom. Also is 1k of >user program ram for applications, ofcourse the 8035 romess >8048 plus IO interfaces that include casette tape, relays >and TTY. > >I've had this one for 25+ years and have not seen any others. >The one I have is working, it's traced it out and use it >for occasional 8048 projects. > > >Allison > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Apr 24 19:58:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 20:58:35 -0400 Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <20050424161114.U1279@localhost> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:55 PM 4/24/05 -0700, you wrote: >I've been working on my car project >(http://wps.com/AMC/1970-AMC-Hornet/index.html) because car season >is coming up soon enough, but I peeled time out for the Nova here >and there. > >I originally repaired a popped +5V logic bypass cap on the >Read/Write Board, (some monolithic ceramic job), and changed all >the funky old caps for new ceramic disks. That worked for 20 - 40 >hours of operation without a single error. Disk had formatted with >zero media defects. Then the disk started throwing read errors >that moved around (bad blocks later good; more and more bad >blocks...). Diagnostics never indicated any error other than read >errors; seek, format, diags all run 100% perfect except read >errors. > >I suspect the Read/Write Board. So I ordered modern monolithic >replacements for the remaining old mono chips from Digikey, and >shotgunned all the old electrolytics etc for good measure, in two >places electrolytics replaced with tantalums (didn't have >.82uF's). > >Install board with all new chips and alcohol wash, format -- hard >100% read failure! D'OH! Long story short, I found internal +6V >was not; turns out I installed a tant backwards. doh. New tant, >+6V fine. > >Formats, reads OK, then errors again! Sheesh! System has been on >for two hours (I'm getting paranoid, so temp stabilize the whole >thing); halted diags, loaded disk heads, installed drive cover, >pushed into the rack, left for an hour for the drive temp to >stabilize (this is a religious rite, might as well kill a chicken) >then format and test again. > >After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look >OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz >NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. > > >The R/W board is a piece of work too. I suspect it's an early >revision, as the board is a hack job, covered in cut traces, >components and jumpers on the bottom, and there's a !#$%!! trimpot >crammed in somewhere as well as kludgey RC (lopass) networks in >some digital logic. Plus, the PC board was milled out for access >to a middle layer. Not Good. Plus, it doesn't match the schematic >(though it's close enough to poke around in with a scope). > >Photos of the nasty board here, > >http://wps.com/NOVA4/pitchas.html How come it says "forbidden" when I try to get a close up view of the picture? > >About halfway down. > > >Anyone got a spare board?! Maybe! There's a pair of Nova 4s in a local scrap yard. One looks complete and the other gutted. Exactly where is the board located in the unit? Where are you located? Joe > > From tomj at wps.com Sun Apr 24 20:54:05 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <0IFH00G6T9MLC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFH00G6T9MLC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050424184301.O1279@localhost> >> I suspect the Read/Write Board. So I ordered modern monolithic >> replacements for the remaining old mono chips from Digikey, and >> shotgunned all the old electrolytics etc for good measure, in two >> places electrolytics replaced with tantalums (didn't have >> ..82uF's). On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Allison wrote: > I hope they are not in any timing circuits. Another way to > really shoot ones foot is change all logic and any analog > stuff or worse digital used as analog. Newer or older parts > often will behave different and at 10mhz that was high speed > then. There be serpents and devils lurking there. No timing caps at all. Nearly all the caps were bypass. A few were DC-blocking. I did replace a lot of .01uF bypass caps with .1uF caps. All of the analog DC-blocking caps were replaced with same value, same type. A few bypass electrolytics were replaced with tantalums of larger value. >> Formats, reads OK, then errors again! Sheesh! System has been on > This tells me you've not looked at the cause only apparent problems > that may not be relevent. Agreed. It does seem to get worse as it gets warmer (cooling is all fine though) but I think this is a distraction. > OK, the drive uses the same CART as a DEC RL01/02 and the base design > is a CDC creation if memory serves. DEC nor DG designed the beast. Hmm, I thought this was of DG design... this is the "double density" drive, 10+10, not 5+5... if it's the same as RL01/02 I'd be very happy!! > There are two things to pay attention to. Servo amps for the > positioner they are analog and can drift. They must be set up > at TEMP. If I remember that varient of the drive also had > embedded servo information for the head position controls. Hmm... I only glanced at the servo design, but it's got the usual diffaction grating plus feedback from the sector headers, I think. Will have to RTFM. > The second is the read/write electronics have a PLL for read > clock recovery. If thats not set up right it will drift > outside the lock in range and start tossing errors. It also > must be setup at working TEMP. The PLL is to track drive > speed errors and irregularities in position and bit shifting. Will have to look at this too, after figuring out which would be first in series with the problem. > Did you mean "two state amp" or "two stage amp"? Likely > it's not an amp problem, a quick look with any old scope > could check that as it warms up. Two stage. I think you're right, it's probably not a read amp issue. From tomj at wps.com Sun Apr 24 20:57:44 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 18:57:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> >> Um, scrub the heads real good again? Murphy may have been a lot of >> things, but subtle wasn't one of them.... >> >> Cheers >> John On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Allison wrote: > I'd forgotten that little bugger. It thats the case use a different > pack for testing afterwards. sometimes the curd on the head damages > the pack. Well, less than a dozen hours since the last cleaning... From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Apr 24 21:09:48 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:09:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Tom Jennings wrote: >> the pack. > > Well, less than a dozen hours since the last cleaning... Drives / packs have been sitting where? for how long? and the System is now operating where? Enquiring minds.... Cheers John From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 21:17:48 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:17:48 -0700 Subject: Crazy Transformer question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > OK, this is a really bizarre question. My Neo-Geo arcade has been >> acting up, and a couple weekends ago when I tried to take a look at > >Define 'acting up', please. After an hour or two the display would go all weird, and shaking like crazy, or a couple times the picture simply disappeared. Then like I said, a couple weekends ago, I didn't even get a picture on the tube, yet when I'd power the system off it would flash some color. At the same time I'd get the system music just fine (or game sounds, and even game play when it was just shaking). So it seemed to be totally restricted to the monitor portion of the system. > > it, I couldn't even get a picture. Today I got the bits to take out >> the security screws so I could get into the part where the >> powersupply is. >> >> It was just up for 4 1/2 hours without any problems. The only things >> that have been done is to wipe the grill where the fan is off (it was >> really filthy), and to move an old sewing machine that was sitting on > >Could it be that the machine was overheating? Or that you re-seated a >dodge connector when you had it apart. Or disturbed a dry joint? I'd actually considered the overheating part based on how filthy the grill on the powersupply was, but since the previous time I couldn't even get a picture, I rather doubt it was overheating. This last time, it worked without me touching a single wire. All I did was move the system, take the back panel off (couldn't do it last time thanks to security bits), and clean the transformer grill. I've a bad feeling that there is something in there that is a loose, or that there is a dry joint, and whatever it is has been disturbed, and then fixed, by moving the system so I could get at the back of the unit. Last night it ran for about 4 1/2 hours straight, and before that it probably ran for 30-45 minutes with me turning it on and off a few times. Today it's been on for about 15 minutes so far. >I don't see how. It's possible for the stray field of one transformer to >couple to another (valve audio amplifers nearly always had the cores of >the mains and output transformer at right angles to reduce hum, for >example), but I've never heard of stray fields or metal affecting a mains >transformer. I didn't see how this could be it either, but wanted to double check and make sure I'd not forgotten something. It's been a *LONG* time since I studied transformer theory, and I've never claimed I was a good electrician :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Apr 24 21:21:23 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 19:21:23 -0700 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504242129.OAA19152@floodgap.com> References: <200504242129.OAA19152@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to >Digital TV >> > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer >> > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? >> >> And the answer would be that with my Apple //gs, I'm getting video, >> however, it's B&W. I assume I should be getting colour output on the >> composite port? > >Uh, yeah ^^;; > >Perhaps your Canopus is set to PAL (or your IIgs isn't NTSC)? I'm not sure what's up. The Canopus can't even do PAL as far as I know, and I'd used it earlier that night with a definite NTSC signal. As far as I know the IIgs is NTSC. To make things even stranger, when I booted up a System 6 floppy, I got colour once it was running the GUI, BUT, it was a bit distorted and not the most readable. I've been doing a little work trying to get a spot cleaned up to set it, and the monitor up, though, I seem to be having a bit of a problem finding a spot to plug it in. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Sun Apr 24 22:27:45 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:27:45 +1100 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <200504242129.OAA19152@floodgap.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> At 02:29 PM 4/24/05 -0700, you wrote: >> > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to Digital TV >> > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer >> > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? >> >> And the answer would be that with my Apple //gs, I'm getting video, >> however, it's B&W. I assume I should be getting colour output on the >> composite port? > >Uh, yeah ^^;; > >Perhaps your Canopus is set to PAL (or your IIgs isn't NTSC)? I thought the composite output on a IIgs was mono only. To get color you have to use the RGB output. To run it on a VGA monitor I'd use a scan doubler such as the Micomsoft XRGB-2. From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 00:02:49 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> Message-ID: <20050424202215.B1279@localhost> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, John Lawson wrote: > Drives / packs have been sitting where? for how long? and the System is now > operating where? > > Enquiring minds.... Well, I keep it outside. It got wet, but when I turned it on it made a lot of sparks and got hot, so I figured that would dry it out? Actually, it's in my lab. Has a dehumidifier, temp hasn't dropped below 60. Papers, fine electronics, machine tools, media and paper seem happy there. I honestly don't think it's a media problem. Late Feb/early Mar I formatted it, and ran it for many hours, with zero defects and no runtime errors. Plus, the errors are scattered over the disk(1) and developed all at once. They happen on all four surfaces. The commonality to all heads made me think R/W electronics, but of course servo fluctuation or other problem could do that. I suppose I could remove a head for close examination but I just don't think all four surfaces got dirty all at once. Head crash problems are audible! From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 00:03:17 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:03:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050424220300.D1279@localhost> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: >> Photos of the nasty board here, >> >> http://wps.com/NOVA4/pitchas.html > > How come it says "forbidden" when I try to get a close up view of the > picture? My bad, permissions fixed. From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 00:07:08 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050424220421.L1279@localhost> On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Maybe! There's a pair of Nova 4s in a local scrap yard. One looks > complete and the other gutted. Exactly where is the board located in the > unit? Where are you located? Take them all!! There aren't that many Novas around, please yank all/any cards from the CPU chassis. They can be ID'd by number. The disk boards are in the ... disk drive. There are many different drives of course. THe R/W board is small and bolted to the chassis, to the right of the head assembly. Removable platter, heads, cards, etc all welcome... From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Apr 25 03:59:24 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:59:24 +0100 Subject: Good CD-R media (T-Y CD-Rs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ab80e614d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Hmm, funny. I only managed to find a 10-pack of the same. Didn't see > anything about T-Y on them but then I didn't look all that much. Where > would I find on the disc or packaging that they are T-Y? Look for the country of manufacture - if it says "Made in Japan" on the packaging, the discs inside are almost certainly Taiyo Yuden. It seems T-Y are the only CD/DVD recordable manufacturer in Japan... In terms of CDRs, if Taiyo Yuden CDRs are the best, then Verbatim's "DatalifePlus" series are a very close second. Make sure you get the DatalifePlus "Super AZO" or "Metal AZO" discs - the ordinary Datalifes are rebranded CMCs. The barcode on the 50-disc spindle packs is "0 23942 43343 9", reorder code 43343. If you've got the right ones, CD-R Identifier or Kprobe will identify them as being manufactured by Mitsubishi Chemical. I've had fairly good luck with RiTEK DVD-Rs with the G04 dye, but I've just bought 50 T-Y DVD+Rs from www.aprmedia.com. They're Fujifilm branded, rated at 8x speed and come in a cakebox with a clear top and a grey base. Barcode is "4 902520 252111" for a pack of 25, "Made in Japan" to the left of the barcode. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Unable to locate coffee - operator halted From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Apr 25 04:08:12 2005 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:08:12 +0100 Subject: Good CD-R media (T-Y CD-Rs) In-Reply-To: <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b@aol.com> References: <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b@aol.com> Message-ID: <76860f614d.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <15a.4f6dcc82.2f9d3b2b at aol.com> Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > Packaging even said "Made in Japan" Salesman didn't have any idea about > Japanese disks, though, and pointed out "other same brand disks" available in > larger quantities [Taiwanese, probably CMC] I got that in Maplin - "Oh, you know we've got a special on 100 shrinkwrapped unbranded CD-Rs for ?20". Just for grins, I picked up the pack and the bottom disc was scratched to hell. For extra points, there was visible unevenness in the dye layer, along with what appeared to be dust spots inside the dye layer. Needless to say, I picked up two packs of T-Ys and left. I'm down to my last nine T-Y CDRs ("THAT'S CD-R" branded - T-Y's own brand). It's sometimes worth taking a quick look at the CDFreaks.com forum at - there's a forum called the "Bargain Basement". Simple idea - find a good deal on CD media, share the info. That's where I found out about SVP and APRMedia. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Toto, I don't think we're in DOS anymore... From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 04:44:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 02:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> References: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> Message-ID: <34090.64.169.63.74.1114422286.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > I thought the composite output on a IIgs was mono only. To get color you > have to use the RGB output. To run it on a VGA monitor I'd use a scan > doubler such as the Micomsoft XRGB-2. No, the IIgs has color on the composite output. Perhaps you're thinking of the Apple III, which did not. The IIgs uses a Motorola MC1377 color video encoder chip to produce composite color video from the RGB outputs of its display chip. The normal video output of all Apple II models does not really meet NTSC spec, so some devices will have trouble with it. In particular, each horizontal line is supposed to have exactly 227.5 cycles of the color carrier, but in an Apple II it takes 228. If you have the video overlay card, that produces proper NTSC output. There was an amazing hack for the original II/II+ to generate broadcast-quality NTSC video. It was a product from Video Associate Labs called the VB3 Microkeyer. There was a huge analog board that sat over the power supply, and a digital board that plugged into a slot. You removed about eight of the TTL chips from the Apple II logic board and replaced them with ribbon cables to the digital board, and there was a wider ribbon cable running from that board to the analog board. The college television studio had one, and I wrote software for it to perform various wipes. In addition to fixing the Apple II's video output to meet NTSC spec, it also added a new hires display mode that scanned memory in a completely linear order, instead of the usual interleaved fashion. This made writing software for wipes somewhat easier. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 04:46:01 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 02:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> References: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> Message-ID: <34097.64.169.63.74.1114422361.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > I thought the composite output on a IIgs was mono only. Update to my last post: Possibly the PAL version had only monochrome composite video; I wouldn't know. The NTSC version definitely had color composite video. Eric From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Mon Apr 25 07:33:06 2005 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:33:06 -0500 Subject: heavy metal Message-ID: <001801c54992$eeb3f0b0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> some ideas on managing a collection of vintage equipment - http://www.qsl.net/vk2dym/radio/collection.htm From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Mon Apr 25 06:43:29 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:43:29 +1100 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <34097.64.169.63.74.1114422361.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050425224329.00999100@pop-server> At 02:46 AM 4/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >> I thought the composite output on a IIgs was mono only. > >Update to my last post: > >Possibly the PAL version had only monochrome composite video; I >wouldn't know. The NTSC version definitely had color composite >video. Possibly. PAL is used here in .au, but most Apple ][e are NTSC. If you wanted color you either bought a PAL card, RGB card and monitor or Apple's not-quite-NTSC (which doesn't produce a color picture from other NTSC sources) color monitor. Even so running the RGB output of the IIgs through a scan doubler will give a better picture on a VGA CRT monitor than using the running the composite output through a TV card. I've read that scan doublers don't work well with some LCD monitors, in that case using the TV card maybe a better option. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 25 08:23:40 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:23:40 -0400 Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <20050424220421.L1279@localhost> References: <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050424205835.007983a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050425092340.00b65c70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:07 PM 4/24/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Sun, 24 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Maybe! There's a pair of Nova 4s in a local scrap yard. One looks >> complete and the other gutted. Exactly where is the board located in the >> unit? Where are you located? > >Take them all!! Why did I know THAT was coming :-) OK I'll see what I can do. The owner there is funny about this stuff. If he thinks there's gold anywhere in it, forget it! Joe >There aren't that many Novas around, please yank >all/any cards from the CPU chassis. They can be ID'd by number. > >The disk boards are in the ... disk drive. There are many >different drives of course. THe R/W board is small and bolted to >the chassis, to the right of the head assembly. > >Removable platter, heads, cards, etc all welcome... > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 25 08:44:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:44:17 -0400 Subject: Need good disk dump utility References: Message-ID: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: Vintage> Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and Vintage> put blank space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if Vintage> dd does this. Neither Linux the manpage nor the info for dd is clear on this. But the NetBSD manpage says that if you say "conv=error" then dd will omit any bad blocks from the output, while if you say "conv=error,sync" it will substitute zeroes for bad blocks. You may have to use blocksize=512 for this to work best, otherwise dd may null out whole buffers full if any one block in the I/O is bad. I haven't checked that, though. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 25 09:24:59 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:24:59 +0000 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1114439099.23816.20.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 09:44 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: > > Vintage> Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and > Vintage> put blank space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if > Vintage> dd does this. > > Neither Linux the manpage nor the info for dd is clear on this. But > the NetBSD manpage says that if you say "conv=error" then dd will omit > any bad blocks from the output, while if you say "conv=error,sync" it > will substitute zeroes for bad blocks. That's interesting. I've not seen a mention of an 'error' param before in the *linux* dd man pages, and don't recall it from other platforms that support dd either. There's a *noerror* param though - if set then it allows dd to continue even if it hits a read (and presumably write) error. If not set then dd will bail at the first sign of trouble. One thing that'd be useful would be a patched version of dd that could also retry reading bad blocks n times up to some command-line supplied maximum; quite often I find for marginal data (such as flakey floppies and hard disks) an initial read might work but one or more subsequent reads work find. Far as I know standard dd won't retry reading data at all. I've hacked together scripts before to do this, but a patch to the actual dd code would be a lot more elegant. cheers Jules From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Apr 25 09:45:30 2005 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: 25 Apr 2005 16:45:30 +0200 Subject: Need good disk dump utility Message-ID: <87d5sic3ud.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> > From Jules Richardson, 25. April 2005 16:25 > > One thing that'd be useful would be a patched version of dd that could > also retry reading bad blocks n times up to some command-line supplied > maximum; quite often I find for marginal data (such as flakey floppies > and hard disks) an initial read might work but one or more subsequent > reads work find. Far as I know standard dd won't retry reading data at > all. I think sdd does all this. See ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/sdd regards, chris From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 09:43:23 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:43:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Soviet Punch Cards Message-ID: No big deal, just thought it was mildly interesting... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5189823717 -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 25 09:55:04 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:55:04 -0400 Subject: Need good disk dump utility References: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1114439099.23816.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <17005.1224.502000.521061@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 09:44 -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival >> writes: >> Vintage> Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and Vintage> put blank space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if Vintage> dd does this. >> Neither Linux the manpage nor the info for dd is clear on this. >> But the NetBSD manpage says that if you say "conv=error" then dd >> will omit any bad blocks from the output, while if you say >> "conv=error,sync" it will substitute zeroes for bad blocks. Jules> That's interesting. I've not seen a mention of an 'error' Jules> param before in the *linux* dd man pages, and don't recall it Jules> from other platforms that support dd either. There's a Jules> *noerror* param though - if set then it allows dd to continue Jules> even if it hits a read (and presumably write) error.... Sorry, slip of the finger. "noerror" is what I meant to say. So "conv=noerror,sync" should do the job. paul From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 09:54:53 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:54:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Dr. Ido wrote: > At 02:29 PM 4/24/05 -0700, you wrote: > >> > Has anyone tried to plug an old Home computer into an Analog to > Digital TV > >> > converter such as the Canopus ADVC-100, and then use a mondern computer > >> > with a Firewire port and video capture software as a monitor? > >> > >> And the answer would be that with my Apple //gs, I'm getting video, > >> however, it's B&W. I assume I should be getting colour output on the > >> composite port? > > > >Uh, yeah ^^;; > > > >Perhaps your Canopus is set to PAL (or your IIgs isn't NTSC)? > > I thought the composite output on a IIgs was mono only. To get color you > have to use the RGB output. To run it on a VGA monitor I'd use a scan > doubler such as the Micomsoft XRGB-2. That doesn't make sense. I'm not saying I know for sure but the composite output on the //gs should be color, just like the rest of the ][ series. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 09:59:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 07:59:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <34090.64.169.63.74.1114422286.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Eric Smith wrote: > There was an amazing hack for the original II/II+ to generate > broadcast-quality NTSC video. It was a product from Video Associate > Labs called the VB3 Microkeyer. There was a huge analog board that > sat over the power supply, and a digital board that plugged into > a slot. You removed about eight of the TTL chips from the Apple II > logic board and replaced them with ribbon cables to the digital board, > and there was a wider ribbon cable running from that board to the > analog board. The college television studio had one, and I wrote > software for it to perform various wipes. Sweet! Where can I find one? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Mon Apr 25 10:04:57 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:04:57 -0400 Subject: heavy metal References: <001801c54992$eeb3f0b0$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <009301c549a8$271443a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > some ideas on managing a collection of vintage equipment - > http://www.qsl.net/vk2dym/radio/collection.htm Assuming you mean humorous. Looks like a diseased person's case history to me. John A. about to pick up a seventh BA213/440 From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 10:06:34 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <87d5sic3ud.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: On 25 Apr 2005, Christian Groessler wrote: > > From Jules Richardson, 25. April 2005 16:25 > > > > One thing that'd be useful would be a patched version of dd that could > > also retry reading bad blocks n times up to some command-line supplied > > maximum; quite often I find for marginal data (such as flakey floppies > > and hard disks) an initial read might work but one or more subsequent > > reads work find. Far as I know standard dd won't retry reading data at > > all. > > I think sdd does all this. > See ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/sdd Thanks for all the feedback, everyone! I checked out sdd and it does not mention anything about errors. Nonetheless, I'll take everyone's input and get a Linux system running (something I've been meaning to do anyway). If need be, I'll hack dd to make it work in a sane manner with errors, and will let everyone know about it at that time. In the meantime I've written a file extractor that handles the sector headers embedded in the Anadisk images and it seems to work pretty well. It was just more complicated than it needed to be. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 25 10:20:10 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:20:10 -0700 Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images Message-ID: I'm trying to put the write the two emulator images from the following source http://www.iosphere.net/%7eeric/wizardry/weeping_snows.htm to 5.25" floppies. I downloaded them and DSK2FILE.SHK on my G5, copied them to a FAT floppy on my G5, and then read the floppy on my PowerBook 540c, which I then used to write the files out to a 800KB ProDOS floppy. I booted System 6 on my //gs from its SyQuest 44, and copied the floppy to the disk cartridge. Then I unshrunk the DSK2FILE.SHK and used the app to write the two Weeping Snows files to 5.25" floppy. Each one took ~10-15 minutes to write, and now that I'm done, I can't seem to access them. Any idea on how on earth I should get these written to floppy? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cpg at aladdin.de Mon Apr 25 10:42:42 2005 From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler) Date: 25 Apr 2005 17:42:42 +0200 Subject: Need good disk dump utility Message-ID: <87acnmc171.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> > > I checked out sdd and it does not mention anything about errors. Hmm, [panther:~]$ sdd -help Usage: sdd [option=value] [-flag] Options: if=name Read input from name instead of stdin of=name Write output to name instead of stdout -inull Do not read input from file (use null char's) -onull Do not write output to any file ibs=#,obs=#,bs=# Set input/outbut buffersize or both to # cbs=# Set conversion buffersize to # ivsize=#,ovsize=# Set input/output volume size to # count=# Transfer at most # input records iseek=#,iskip=# Seek/skip # bytes on input before starting oseek=#,oskip=# Seek/skip # bytes on output before starting seek=#,skip=# Seek/skip # bytes on input/output before starting ivseek=#,ovseek=# Seek # bytes on input/output volumes before starting -notrunc Do not trunctate existing output file -pg Print a dot on each write to indicate progress -noerror Do not stop on error -noerrwrite Do not write blocks not read correctly -noseek Don't seek try=# Set error retrycount to # if -noerror (default 2) -debug Print debugging messages -fill Fill each record with zeros up to obs -swab,-block,-unblock,-lcase,-ucase,-ascii,-ebcdic,-ibm [panther:~]$ The -noerror and try=# parameters should take care about errors. regards, chris From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 25 10:50:07 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:50:07 -0400 Subject: Need good disk dump utility References: <87d5sic3ud.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> Message-ID: <17005.4527.707000.190182@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Vintage" == Vintage Computer Festival writes: >> > From Jules Richardson, 25. April 2005 16:25 >> > >> > One thing that'd be useful would be a patched version of dd that >> could > also retry reading bad blocks n times up to some >> command-line supplied > maximum; quite often I find for marginal >> data (such as flakey floppies > and hard disks) an initial read >> might work but one or more subsequent > reads work find. Far as I >> know standard dd won't retry reading data at > all. That would make sense. The normal assumption is that drivers do retry. The driver might have a way to adjust how hard it retries, but certainly no competent driver would give up immediately on a disk I/O error. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 25 11:07:35 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:07:35 -0400 Subject: Tektronix Terminal manuals Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050425120735.015aa6d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've been using a Textronix Color terminal for several years but never been able to find a manual for it. Last week I found brand new sealed manuals for it. "4205/4207 Color Display Terminals" Operators manual and Opertors Supplement "VT200, 3179G and Tek Enhancements for 4200 Series Computer Display Terminals". Does anyone want to scan them and post them anywhere? The only catch is that >> I DO WANT THEM BACK <<<. And I need them back in a reasonable amount of time. Joe From kth at srv.net Mon Apr 25 11:54:16 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:54:16 -0600 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <20050424092335.05a5de53.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050424092335.05a5de53.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <426D20B8.4090302@srv.net> Scott Stevens wrote: >On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:11:11 -0700 (PDT) >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > >>I'm currently using Anadisk to dump disks into image files. The >>problem is, Anadisk, like 22disk, is retarded. If it hits an error it >>skips the sector but does not put a blank sector in the image file. >>You have the option of placing a sector header before each sector, but >>for manipulating disk images, this is a piss poor way to mark missing >>sectors. Anadisk also has the annoying habit of ignoring the start >>and finish cylinders and merrily proceeds to read the entire disk, >>relegating the need to ask you what cylinders you want dumped >>superfluous. >> >>Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank >>space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. >> >>I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* >>myself? >> >> >> > >Well, the cool thing about the free Unices (and Linux) is that you can >dig into the source code for dd and find out. And if it doesn't put >blank space where errors occur, you can modify it to do so. Perhaps >with a command-line switch option, if one doesn't already exist. > > > >>I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* >>myself? >> >> > >Naw, just the bit that will scratch your particular itch. And if you >make changes to dd and submit your changes back, nobody else will have >to rewrite it either. > > > Another one to look at is dmklib http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ That one worked for me to read several Kaypro disks under Linux. I think it works the way you expect for bad sectors. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 11:30:35 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:30:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Information on IC 8287 help Message-ID: <200504251630.JAA08102@clulw009.amd.com> Hi In may searches for a DP8303, I have found nothing. I did find with the help of those in this group that the 8304 was the same except non-inverted. Looking for this part, I found that several places list a 8286 as being the same. This is also refered to as a uPD71086. While looking at the Jameco catalog, I found the next list stated as an inverting buffer with the number 8287. I believe this may be the same as the 8303 that I've been looking for. Can anyone tell me what the pinout is for either a i8287 or a uPD71087 ?? Thanks Dwight From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 25 11:35:06 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:35:06 -0500 Subject: Tektronix Terminal manuals In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425120735.015aa6d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050425113326.024cafe0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Hi Joe, I would be happy to have my friend Duncan scan them on his scanner and return the docs afterwards. He has a scanner identical to Al's, so it should be pretty painless. --tom At 12:07 PM 4/25/2005 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > I've been using a Textronix Color terminal for several years but never >been able to find a manual for it. Last week I found brand new sealed >manuals for it. "4205/4207 Color Display Terminals" Operators manual and >Opertors Supplement "VT200, 3179G and Tek Enhancements for 4200 Series >Computer Display Terminals". Does anyone want to scan them and post them >anywhere? The only catch is that >> I DO WANT THEM BACK <<<. And I need >them back in a reasonable amount of time. > > Joe From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 11:38:10 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <200504251638.JAA08106@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >Myself as well. The design of this radio is early 50s. I have a similar >circuits from the 1960 RCA tube manual that require only A and B(HT) voltages. >However this radio had a battery based on destructive examination and markings >that provided 7.5V, 1.5V and 90V. So the likely case is "C" voltage or as ---snip--- Hi The 1.5v cell was most likely for the panel light. This was common on many of the battery powered sets. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 11:47:05 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:47:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT Don't read this Message-ID: <200504251647.JAA08133@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Honniball" ---snip--- > >I've just remembered that Magic Eye valves/tubes have (I think) >an amplifying triode in the same envelope as the indicator. And I >think they're internally linked together. Does anyone have any >data on these gadgets that would show this sort of information? > Hi John If you remember the tube number, you can find some information at: http://www.nostalgiaair.org/Tubes/ They alos have quite a few schematics for old radios. One of the tuning eye tubes that I can think of is the 6U5. Later Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 11:57:08 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves Message-ID: <200504251657.JAA08138@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Stan Barr" > >Hi, > >Tony Duell said: > > >> >> I must try the circuit that was in Elektor a couple of months back to get >> 90V from low-voltage batteries. > >See http://hometown.aol.co.uk/kitradioco/uk.htm for a commercial one, >it even looks like a battery. But IIRC you're like me - you don't like >_buying_ things you can make! > Hi Stan I've done similar. I've taken one of those small 100W inverters and rewound the transformer on it to provide all the voltages for my older battery powered Atwater set. It just runs from a 12 volt gel cell. I tapped of the primary to provide the filament voltage and used the secondary with tape to provide the rest. As I recall, there was one -C and two +B voltages. I used no regulation, just used the right rinding ratios. One has to remember, these old radios were made to run form carbon-zinc cell in most cases. I did put a pot on my C cell. The original was -4.5v but I found that it works better, with less distortion, when set at about -3.5v. Dwight From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Mon Apr 25 11:00:35 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 03:00:35 +1100 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050426030035.009aaae0@pop-server> At 07:54 AM 4/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >> I thought the composite output on a IIgs was mono only. To get color you >> have to use the RGB output. To run it on a VGA monitor I'd use a scan >> doubler such as the Micomsoft XRGB-2. > >That doesn't make sense. I'm not saying I know for sure but the composite >output on the //gs should be color, just like the rest of the ][ series. You're probably right. I am just used to using the composite output as mono only as for some reason most ][e's in Australia don't output true NTSC color. You'll get color on an Apple supplied composite monitor, but not on other NTSC monitors (you won't get color on the apple monitor from other NTSC sources either). Such ][e motherboards are marked "International NTSC", from memory the colorburst frequency is different. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 12:20:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:20:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Theos Message-ID: <200504251720.KAA08198@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "SP" >This is the old OS named Oasis. I knew Oasis in 1986, in one version for the >Olivetti M-20. I couldn't take the manual and disks before they go to the >dumpster when my old employeer went down (together with one M-20, one AT&T >3b1, some Amstrad PCW's, some Olivetti M-24 and M-28, and so on... all with >software, licenses, and documentation). > Hi If anyone has Oasis for the M-20, I'd love to get a copy. Infact If anyone has any software for the M20 I would be interested in seeing what you have. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 12:32:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility Message-ID: <200504251732.KAA08226@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Scott Stevens" > >On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 16:11:11 -0700 (PDT) >Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> >> I'm currently using Anadisk to dump disks into image files. The >> problem is, Anadisk, like 22disk, is retarded. If it hits an error it >> skips the sector but does not put a blank sector in the image file. >> You have the option of placing a sector header before each sector, but >> for manipulating disk images, this is a piss poor way to mark missing >> sectors. Anadisk also has the annoying habit of ignoring the start >> and finish cylinders and merrily proceeds to read the entire disk, >> relegating the need to ask you what cylinders you want dumped >> superfluous. >> >> Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank >> space where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. >> >> I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* >> myself? >> > >Well, the cool thing about the free Unices (and Linux) is that you can >dig into the source code for dd and find out. And if it doesn't put >blank space where errors occur, you can modify it to do so. Perhaps >with a command-line switch option, if one doesn't already exist. > >> I'm sick of the crap programming of others. Must I write *EVERYTHING* >> myself? > >Naw, just the bit that will scratch your particular itch. And if you >make changes to dd and submit your changes back, nobody else will have >to rewrite it either. > Hi Not only should it pad the empty space but it should also write the buffer values that may have been read if it was just a crc error on the data portion. These are often just missing one bit and can be recovered with a little bit of work. Dwight From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 25 12:33:50 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:33:50 -0400 Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <0IFI0023YJFERWI0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:38:10 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >>From: "Allison" >> >>Myself as well. The design of this radio is early 50s. I have a similar >>circuits from the 1960 RCA tube manual that require only A and B(HT) voltages. >>However this radio had a battery based on destructive examination and markings >>that provided 7.5V, 1.5V and 90V. So the likely case is "C" voltage or as >---snip--- > >Hi > The 1.5v cell was most likely for the panel light. >This was common on many of the battery powered sets. >Dwight > Nope, No dial light. I opened the chassis up and traced the 1.5V. It runs the audio output 3v5 other half of the filiment. I suspect they did that to balance the filiment currents. Odd but, thats the story. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 25 12:39:59 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:39:59 -0400 Subject: small valves Message-ID: <0IFI00LJMJPNFBQ1@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:57:08 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Hi Stan > I've done similar. I've taken one of those small 100W >inverters and rewound the transformer on it to provide >all the voltages for my older battery powered Atwater >set. It just runs from a 12 volt gel cell. I tapped >of the primary to provide the filament voltage and >used the secondary with tape to provide the rest. >As I recall, there was one -C and two +B voltages. >I used no regulation, just used the right rinding >ratios. One has to remember, these old radios >were made to run form carbon-zinc cell in most cases. >I did put a pot on my C cell. The original was -4.5v >but I found that it works better, with less distortion, >when set at about -3.5v. >Dwight Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of that. Switching mode PS design is an art in itself. Part of the fun is building for good efficientcy and for powering tube designs that means knowing the load. An aside is don't run regens off inverter or switching supplies as the gain is high enough to negate reasonable shielding and bypassing. For that I find common alkaline 9V batteries in series do well for the typical 27-90v range and exhibit good life. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 25 12:45:55 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:45:55 -0400 Subject: Need good disk dump utility References: <200504251732.KAA08226@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <17005.11475.736000.635268@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dwight" == Dwight K Elvey writes: Dwight> Hi Not only should it pad the empty space but it should also Dwight> write the buffer values that may have been read if it was Dwight> just a crc error on the data portion. These are often just Dwight> missing one bit and can be recovered with a little bit of Dwight> work. That's a great idea if the OS drivers do that. Typically they do not; if an error is returned then data is not returned. What you're looking for here is a "give me the bits that came across anyway" feature. Come to think of it, you also need hardware that offers this -- some do, some don't. Analogous example in networking: Ethernet drivers and/or NICs normallly discard bad packets, but some drivers and NICs can be told not to do that and deliver packets even if the CRC is bad. paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 25 12:58:06 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:58:06 -0400 Subject: Information on IC 8287 help Message-ID: <0IFI00M9ZKJUIANE@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Information on IC 8287 help > From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:30:35 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > >Hi > In may searches for a DP8303, I have found nothing. >I did find with the help of those in this group that >the 8304 was the same except non-inverted. Looking >for this part, I found that several places list >a 8286 as being the same. This is also refered to >as a uPD71086. While looking at the Jameco catalog, >I found the next list stated as an inverting buffer >with the number 8287. I believe this may be the same >as the 8303 that I've been looking for. > Can anyone tell me what the pinout is for either >a i8287 or a uPD71087 ?? >Thanks >Dwight the 8286/7 is an intel part. the 8286 is non inverting and the 87 inverts data. They are both octal bidirectional bus transceivers. look it up here as "8286" to get a full PDF datasheet. http://www.datasheetarchive.com/index.html Allison From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 12:58:17 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue Message-ID: <200504251758.KAA08236@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >I've been working on my car project >(http://wps.com/AMC/1970-AMC-Hornet/index.html) because car season >is coming up soon enough, but I peeled time out for the Nova here >and there. > >I originally repaired a popped +5V logic bypass cap on the >Read/Write Board, (some monolithic ceramic job), and changed all >the funky old caps for new ceramic disks. That worked for 20 - 40 >hours of operation without a single error. Disk had formatted with >zero media defects. Then the disk started throwing read errors >that moved around (bad blocks later good; more and more bad >blocks...). Diagnostics never indicated any error other than read >errors; seek, format, diags all run 100% perfect except read >errors. > >I suspect the Read/Write Board. So I ordered modern monolithic >replacements for the remaining old mono chips from Digikey, and >shotgunned all the old electrolytics etc for good measure, in two >places electrolytics replaced with tantalums (didn't have >.82uF's). > >Install board with all new chips and alcohol wash, format -- hard >100% read failure! D'OH! Long story short, I found internal +6V >was not; turns out I installed a tant backwards. doh. New tant, >+6V fine. > >Formats, reads OK, then errors again! Sheesh! System has been on >for two hours (I'm getting paranoid, so temp stabilize the whole >thing); halted diags, loaded disk heads, installed drive cover, >pushed into the rack, left for an hour for the drive temp to >stabilize (this is a religious rite, might as well kill a chicken) >then format and test again. > >After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look >OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz >NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. > > >The R/W board is a piece of work too. I suspect it's an early >revision, as the board is a hack job, covered in cut traces, >components and jumpers on the bottom, and there's a !#$%!! trimpot >crammed in somewhere as well as kludgey RC (lopass) networks in >some digital logic. Plus, the PC board was milled out for access >to a middle layer. Not Good. Plus, it doesn't match the schematic >(though it's close enough to poke around in with a scope). > >Photos of the nasty board here, > >http://wps.com/NOVA4/pitchas.html > >About halfway down. > > >Anyone got a spare board?! Hi Tom Most of these old circuits used 1-shots to decode things. Take a look at these to see if the timings seem reasonable. Most have pulse widths around 0.7RC. Dwight From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 25 13:05:14 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:05:14 -0700 Subject: Information on IC 8287 help Message-ID: <426D315A.2913CB5C@rain.org> Just out of curiousity, wouldn't you really prefer the PDF datasheet for the DP8303? It appears to be the same as an AM8308 (AMD) (Octal Three-State Bidirectional Bus Transceivers) and I am guessing that the suffix is "J". I couldn't find any info on the i8287 or uPD71087. At any rate, check your email :). > In may searches for a DP8303, I have found nothing. > I did find with the help of those in this group that > the 8304 was the same except non-inverted. Looking > for this part, I found that several places list > a 8286 as being the same. This is also refered to > as a uPD71086. While looking at the Jameco catalog, > I found the next list stated as an inverting buffer > with the number 8287. I believe this may be the same > as the 8303 that I've been looking for. > Can anyone tell me what the pinout is for either > a i8287 or a uPD71087 ?? > Thanks > Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 13:04:02 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for IMSAI IM-48 docs Message-ID: <200504251804.LAA08242@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Someone at one of the earlier VCF's had one that controlled stuff in a doll house. Maybe someone can remember who that was?? Dwight >From: "Joe R." > >Mike Haas has one of these. He may have the manuals too. > > Joe > > >At 02:50 PM 4/24/05 -0400, you wrote: >>Every so often I put this up in various places.. >> >>I'm looking for schematics and otehr useful info on: >> >> IMSAI IMP-48 >> >>Thats a single board computer that IMSAI did using the Intel >>8048 family chips. On board items are keypad and LED display >>to interact with a monitor program in Eprom. Also is 1k of >>user program ram for applications, ofcourse the 8035 romess >>8048 plus IO interfaces that include casette tape, relays >>and TTY. >> >>I've had this one for 25+ years and have not seen any others. >>The one I have is working, it's traced it out and use it >>for occasional 8048 projects. >> >> >>Allison >> >> > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 13:17:18 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility Message-ID: <200504251817.LAA08247@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Sellam I wrote some code to talk to a standard disk controller that runs on a AT. I wrote it because I needed to get the MFM information from disk that had the first track set to FM while the others were MFM. I tried 22disk without success being that my controller doesn't do FM. In my case, the first sector being FM wasn't an issues since I could format on my M20 but I needed to read the other tracks. The code is written in Forth ( sorry about that ). If you'd like to look at it, I can dig it out. It does the standard DMA transfers on an AT. I don't recall but I suspect it has little error checking. Dwight >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On 25 Apr 2005, Christian Groessler wrote: > >> > From Jules Richardson, 25. April 2005 16:25 >> > >> > One thing that'd be useful would be a patched version of dd that could >> > also retry reading bad blocks n times up to some command-line supplied >> > maximum; quite often I find for marginal data (such as flakey floppies >> > and hard disks) an initial read might work but one or more subsequent >> > reads work find. Far as I know standard dd won't retry reading data at >> > all. >> >> I think sdd does all this. >> See ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/sdd > >Thanks for all the feedback, everyone! > >I checked out sdd and it does not mention anything about errors. >Nonetheless, I'll take everyone's input and get a Linux system running >(something I've been meaning to do anyway). If need be, I'll hack dd to >make it work in a sane manner with errors, and will let everyone know >about it at that time. > >In the meantime I've written a file extractor that handles the sector >headers embedded in the Anadisk images and it seems to work pretty well. >It was just more complicated than it needed to be. > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 13:24:54 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves Message-ID: <200504251824.LAA08270@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Allison" > >> >>Subject: Re: small valves >> From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 09:57:08 -0700 (PDT) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>Hi Stan >> I've done similar. I've taken one of those small 100W >>inverters and rewound the transformer on it to provide >>all the voltages for my older battery powered Atwater >>set. It just runs from a 12 volt gel cell. I tapped >>of the primary to provide the filament voltage and >>used the secondary with tape to provide the rest. >>As I recall, there was one -C and two +B voltages. >>I used no regulation, just used the right rinding >>ratios. One has to remember, these old radios >>were made to run form carbon-zinc cell in most cases. >>I did put a pot on my C cell. The original was -4.5v >>but I found that it works better, with less distortion, >>when set at about -3.5v. >>Dwight > >Good approach. I enjoy building and winding my own cores >be they EI iron or powered iron/ferrite types is part of >that. Switching mode PS design is an art in itself. Part >of the fun is building for good efficientcy and for powering >tube designs that means knowing the load. > >An aside is don't run regens off inverter or switching supplies >as the gain is high enough to negate reasonable shielding >and bypassing. For that I find common alkaline 9V batteries >in series do well for the typical 27-90v range and exhibit >good life. True but expensive. I do this on my Radiola II. Dwight From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 25 13:33:26 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:33:26 -0400 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle Message-ID: <200504251433.28014.kenziem@sympatico.ca> I am starting to get curious. Out of all my machines the one I get the most requests for is the sentinal pro dongle. Is there a pending patent case? Is the software that required these still in use or demand? this one is labelled 1294/6558 C.B. Microtek ltd ----------------------------------- 4F33BH-B 9451L52135 -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From williams.dan at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 13:33:39 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:33:39 +0100 Subject: Cray picked up today Message-ID: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> Well I picked up the cray today, I'm not an expert but it looks like it's either got 4 or 5 processors. It also seems to have around 30 4gb hard drives. But there was one main problem it wouldn;t fit through the door in my flat. So I am now slightly poorer and it has a months storage. They guy I spoke to when I picked said it was just switched off, put on a fork lift and moved in to the warehouse. But it seems to have had quite a bit of cosmetic damage, I think it has been dropped or at least knocked over. I will have to wait and see if and permenant damage has been done, It seems to be nuclear proof. The outisde skins are nearly a 2 man lift. We spent 4 hours stripping it down to get on the truck. In the end we might as well of left it and put it on with a fork lift and then took it off the other end. ho hum Dan From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 25 13:34:07 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:34:07 -0700 Subject: Enigma Machine To Be Reactivated After 60 Years Message-ID: <426D381F.AA73BAC4@rain.org> I just received this and thought the list might be interested ARRLSB - The Official ARRL Santa Barbara Section Mailing List -------------------------------------------------------------------------- SPECIAL EVENT (Enigma Machine To Be Reactivated After 60 Years)...... In September 1939, the radio receivers of all radio amateurs were ordered to be confiscated, but many amateurs volunteered to become "Voluntary Interceptors" (V.I.'s) in their own homes. These V.I.'s intercepted encrypted Enigma messages transmitted in Morse Code which were passed to the code breakers at Bletchley Park. Accuracy was crucial in order to assist decoding of the message, but many of the intercepted signals were weak or fading and atmospheric conditions were often poor with QRM from loud local stations. Searching through the bands was very painstaking, but it was a task that was carried out with great skill and dedication, providing a most valuable service to the Allies. As a tribute to the work of the V.I.'s sixty years ago, the Scarborough Special Events Group (SSEG) will be on the air as GB2HQ from GCHQ Scarborough over the weekend of May 7-8th. A souvenir QSL card showing an Enigma cipher machine and an HRO receiver will be issued to commemorate the occasion. GCHQ have provided a working Enigma machine for use by the SSEG and Ofcom and have given permission for transmission of an enciphered Enigma message to be sent in Morse Code on the amateur radio bands for this event only. The group will be active on SSB, PSK and CW. The CW station will operate around 7015 or 3515 KHz and the Enigma message will be transmitted in Morse Code at 1100z on Saturday, May 7th, at a speed of 15 wpm. The message will consist of a few five letter groups which will be repeated at 1300 and 1900z. GCHQ invites all licenced amateurs and listeners to submit a copy of this Enigma message and will award a certificate for a 100% accurate intercept. A copy of this message should be sent via club call G0OOO (Scarborough Special Events Group, 9 Green Island, Irton, Scarborough YO12 4RN) and can be enclosed with a QSL card. The cost of the certificate is =C2=A33.00 sterling, 5 Euro's, 5 USD, or 6 IRCs. (UK cheques should be made out to "SSEG"). All profits will be donated to GCHQ Scarborough Charities Fund. Full details will be published on their Web site at: http://www.sseg.co.uk For more information about the Enigma machine, visit the following Web pages: http://www.codesandciphers.org.uk/enigma/ http://www.enigmahistory.org/enigma.html _______________________________________________ ARRL Santa Barbara Section List Mailer From marvin at rain.org Mon Apr 25 13:37:39 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:37:39 -0700 Subject: Information on IC 8287 help Message-ID: <426D38F3.86316985@rain.org> OOPS, typos strick ): again. The AM8308 should have been AM8303. > Just out of curiousity, wouldn't you really prefer the PDF datasheet for > the DP8303? It appears to be the same as an AM8308 (AMD) (Octal From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Apr 25 12:05:12 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:05:12 -0700 Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> <20050424202215.B1279@localhost> Message-ID: <426D2348.8EB78BE2@msm.umr.edu> > > > I suppose I could remove a head for close examination but I just > don't think all four surfaces got dirty all at once. Head crash > problems are audible! The other thing you mentioned but didn't comment on the condition of is the grating and the optical sensor for said. are they clean? also, on the drive's we had, of the western dynex and microdata variety, you could physically feel the drive or the voice coil and feel it vibrating when there was a servo problem, in most cases, or hear a difference in the seeks as it failed. Jim From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Apr 25 13:46:51 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:46:51 -0500 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <200504251433.28014.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200504251433.28014.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050425134504.049b6f90@mail> At 01:33 PM 4/25/2005, Mike wrote: >I am starting to get curious. Out of all my machines the one I get the most >requests for is the sentinal pro dongle. Is there a pending patent case? >Is the software that required these still in use or demand? Maybe someone hoping they'll work on some copy-protected program they own or want to run. I've got a dozen or more for 3D programs plus the Rainbow Tech SDK. As I recall, they have a unique manufacturer ID, so I don't think they are interoperable between applications. - John From medavidson at mac.com Mon Apr 25 13:52:16 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:52:16 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <4267D900.A7F4270B@msm.umr.edu> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> <20050419215028.V910@localhost> <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> <4267D900.A7F4270B@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <1025563806b1e7468293bd5dc61e59a9@mac.com> On Apr 21, 2005, at 9:46 AM, jim stephens wrote: >> > > > >> >> Ok... I'll probably end up taking some photos so I can make sure I'm >> doing the right thing. >> > > I liked what you posted so far, post as many as you have time to! > Will do! Unfortunately, this weekend was completely overtaken with other stuff, so the Eclipse had to wait. My girlfriend has basically told me "Help me with these things, and you can have the whole summer to play with your new toy". More photos to come... >> >>> At least my 6070 has a toggle switch inside, on the servo board, >>> that disables the head servos; DISABLE, power the drive up switch >>> to RUN and let it purge for an hour; this is recommended in the >>> service docs. The platters will spin, brush cycle runs, air pumps, >>> presumably flings off all the dust. >>> >>> >> Appreciate the advice... I'll try to get into the drive by this >> weekend, and run a test on it. > > the longer you can run this, not just an hour, the better that you can > rely on having things die w/o the heads loaded, as tom has had happen. > > run it for 24 hrs. it should be no stretch to do that. If it is still > spinning > and functional at that point, then at least the main things that you > want > to have running will not have failed, and the heads will be safe. > > That's an excellent idea. I will do that. Mark From medavidson at mac.com Mon Apr 25 13:58:51 2005 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 11:58:51 -0700 Subject: DG Eclipse available... (Second try) In-Reply-To: <20050421134234.R1279@localhost> References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050205141905.02237968@mail.ubanproductions.com> <61f9b9c4933994fae8275427f6b4f750@mac.com> <200503171950.04231.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <2979f6396799350ad7a48153cfd4ae4a@mac.com> <4256FED1.2090803@jetnet.ab.ca> <20050419145441.L659@localhost> <2153e9e4656607af2ed0ad564f9e8fed@mac.com> <20050419215028.V910@localhost> <13de1d9564edcfca8110850ec91740f8@mac.com> <09f9f81ea75ff11e186c67fc9ecaf99f@mac.com> <20050421134234.R1279@localhost> Message-ID: <8d1c3d69a989ee1b51518349cd337f5e@mac.com> Hi Tom-- On Apr 21, 2005, at 1:48 PM, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Wed, 20 Apr 2005, Mark Davidson wrote: > >> Wow, I tried pulling VERY hard... they haven't been removed in years, >> I wouid imagine. I think I'll have better luck trying to get the >> side panels off first. In fact, I cracked the plastic on one >> connector that was on a panel over an empty area... where the plastic >> that connects to the rack forms a "handle" for you to pull on in >> order to remove them. > > The plastic panels (top, bottom) hare ordinary sheet-metal screws, > in from the back. > Yes, I remember that. > To get the sides off, you must lift from the bottom. They're > heavy. There's a "J" shaped hook bolted to the rack the sides sit > on. > I remember that as well. > THere's probably s screw or two, on the rear inside rail, through > the rack into the side panel, so that the side panel doesn't fall > off when you turn the rack upside down. If you were to do such a > thing. I don't recommend it. > That wasn't on my list of things to try. *grin* > There may be a screw through the frame rail in the front too, > visible only after you pull off the front panels. > > There also may be other mounting styles, but yours look like mine. > > > I don't know what to suggest about the stuck front panels. Peek > from the rear with a bright light and make sure you see a stud on > the framerail, two? per panel per side. It'll be a #10 screw > thread with keps nut (nut with captive external start lock > washer). Something like that. > I'll try and do that. > Taking off the side panels probably won't help get the fronts off, > but you will get to examine dust bunnies from the 1980's, lost > pencils, missing rack screws, etc. > My biggest problem has been the location of the machine. Unfortunately, I wasn't at home when they delivered it, or I would have fixed this problem. The problem is that the machine is too close to the garage wall for me to get in back and open the doors. If I had been there, I would have had the delivery guys leave it about a foot further "out". Right now, I'd need a pallet mover to move the machine out... and thus, my desire to get the side panel off. At least if I can do that, I can get inside the machine and check things out. If I have to, I'm going to see if I can borrow and truck and the pallet mover from work and move the machine again. We'll see. Mark From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Apr 25 14:01:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:01:17 -0400 Subject: Enigma Machine To Be Reactivated After 60 Years References: <426D381F.AA73BAC4@rain.org> Message-ID: <17005.15997.832393.972296@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Neat. For greater verisimilitude, they should send a fairly large message coded up with the common sloppy code clerk procedures, and challenge people to break it and submit the plaintext and key. paul From korpela at gmail.com Sun Apr 24 23:43:01 2005 From: korpela at gmail.com (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 21:43:01 -0700 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: References: <200504242129.OAA19152@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > To make things even stranger, when I booted up a System 6 floppy, I > got colour once it was running the GUI, BUT, it was a bit distorted > and not the most readable. That's what you'll get with Apple II composite in most of the color graphics modes. In the IIgs they chose compatibility with the II position/color encoding on the composite output over readability. There are a few dozen people on the list that can exaplain Apple II graphics better than I, but to make a long story short, it's a brilliant bit of engineering when you have a limited components budget and limited memory, but compatibility is a bit confining. Run a decent Apple II emulator and you'll probably see the same "distorted" image. If you want better, you'll need to use the RGB output or stick with the monochrome modes. Even if you convert the RGB into composite it might be a win over the built in composite. Eric From pmackinlay at hotmail.com Mon Apr 25 03:14:56 2005 From: pmackinlay at hotmail.com (Patrick Mackinlay) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:14:56 +0800 Subject: Intergraph fans... Message-ID: Just a short post to introduce myself and what I'm up to... I'm currently looking into one of Intergraph's old InterPro systems (a 2830) and trying to dig up enough documentation to allow me to ultimately port NetBSD to the box to replace the native CLIX (an old SYSV 3.2ish Unix). Have made some pretty good progress on disassembling the boot EPROM and writing the beginnings of a hardware simulator. After discovering the CLIPPER CPU book online (not to mention the DP8510 BitBlt unit databook!), I think my off-the-shelf chip documents are almost complete. Information on the custom ASICs is almost nonexistent, but the system diagnostics provide some good reference code which should provide useful information. I'm curious to know if there's anyone else out there that's interested in these relatively rare boxes? For anyone that cares, the basic hardware in the box is: C4M CLIPPER CPU at 70MHz, ECC RAM Zilog 85C30 SCC and 85230 ESCC - one port used by keyboard, other three available Xilinix XC3020 fpga controls Versatec, Centronics or Intergraph compatible plotter interface Intel 82596 ethernet controller NCR53c94 SCSI host controller NEC82077 floppy controller Dallas DS12887 RTC and NVRAM 128k boot UV EPROM 2x128k diagnostic/boot flash EPROM The graphics board is built up with: DP8510 BitBlt unit (x2 on dual head board) custom Bresenham line-drawing ASIC bt459 DAC (x2 on dual head board) 2x1M VRAM (double buffered), (x2 on dual head board) The real key to the missing documentation is the remaining IOGA and SGA custom asics on the system board. Anyone who has any other documentation on this stuff would be a friend for life ;). Regards, Pat Mackinlay. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:08:45 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:08:45 -0700 Subject: Tektronix Terminal manuals In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050425113326.024cafe0@mail.ubanproductions.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425120735.015aa6d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050425113326.024cafe0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Joe; I take it you must have sold the scanner. I didn't get the one in Oregon. To the recorder... How long would scanning the manuals take? I have several boxes of TEK manuals that should be recorded including all the terminals. Probably should be done closer to Oregon than Florida, though. Paxton Astoria, OR -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Apr 25 14:05:28 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Information on IC 8287 help Message-ID: <200504251905.MAA08352@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Marvin They didn't have the intel part but did have a spec sheet from Siemens on a SAB 8286/87. It seems that yes, the i8287 is the part that will work on the board I've been trying to get work. The current rate is a little lower 32ma instead of 48ma but I doubt that will have any effect on the SYM-1's bus. The 8308 is configured differently on the enables. It has separate receive and transmit enables. I needed the T/R pin with the single Disable pin. This seems to match the i8287 that I just located at Halted :) The Am8303 you sent me matches the schematic I have for the DP8303. The sheet for the SAB 8287 has the same functions as the DP8303. I think my search has endded. It would be great to have a cross reference of these old chips. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > >Just out of curiousity, wouldn't you really prefer the PDF datasheet for >the DP8303? It appears to be the same as an AM8308 (AMD) (Octal >Three-State Bidirectional Bus Transceivers) and I am guessing that the >suffix is "J". I couldn't find any info on the i8287 or uPD71087. At any >rate, check your email :). > >> In may searches for a DP8303, I have found nothing. >> I did find with the help of those in this group that >> the 8304 was the same except non-inverted. Looking >> for this part, I found that several places list >> a 8286 as being the same. This is also refered to >> as a uPD71086. While looking at the Jameco catalog, >> I found the next list stated as an inverting buffer >> with the number 8287. I believe this may be the same >> as the 8303 that I've been looking for. >> Can anyone tell me what the pinout is for either >> a i8287 or a uPD71087 ?? >> Thanks >> Dwight > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 25 14:17:56 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:17:56 +0000 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <6.2.1.2.2.20050425134504.049b6f90@mail> References: <200504251433.28014.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <6.2.1.2.2.20050425134504.049b6f90@mail> Message-ID: <1114456676.23816.57.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 13:46 -0500, John Foust wrote: > At 01:33 PM 4/25/2005, Mike wrote: > >I am starting to get curious. Out of all my machines the one I get the most > >requests for is the sentinal pro dongle. Is there a pending patent case? > >Is the software that required these still in use or demand? > > Maybe someone hoping they'll work on some copy-protected program > they own or want to run. Autodesk stuff in particular used to use them and even their old apps are still pretty useful, so yep, that was my first thought too. I think they were keyed to specific media, so not much use except with a machine with the software installed. cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Apr 25 14:41:24 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:41:24 +0000 Subject: Cray picked up today In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1114458084.23816.64.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 19:33 +0100, Dan Williams wrote: > Well I picked up the cray today, I'm not an expert but it looks like > it's either got 4 or 5 processors. It also seems to have around 30 4gb > hard drives. Nice! > But there was one main problem it wouldn;t fit through > the door in my flat. So I am now slightly poorer and it has a months > storage. Yikes... so you're going to have to demolish the doorframe to get it through? cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 14:58:14 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 12:58:14 -0700 Subject: More stuff in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <1c8.276fe529.2f9d4247@aol.com> References: <1c8.276fe529.2f9d4247@aol.com> Message-ID: Scott; I am interested in both the AIX and SCO if they are still available. I am in Astoria and could come up and pick up if prefered. Thanks for posting. Paxton On 4/24/05, Saquinn624 at aol.com wrote: > I also have: > > AIX V4.3.3 documentation (about 4 yrs OT, but it *does* run on classic > RS/6ks), includes doc CDs and several manuals. > > SCO XENIX 386 release 2.2AT ("for Compaq Deskpro 386 and compatibles"). Don't > have any machines that this will run on, but the disks are readable > (checked in a Linux box). Includes docs. > Activation key written on first disk. > > above is FREE, as was the earlier SGIs and HP 9000/H50 > > [OT alert . . .] > I also have a Tek 555 scope that I don't have probes for and is just too big > for convienient use. ex-Boeing, one DT and one single trace plugin and service > docs. If someone has a smaller scope that they would be interested in trading > . . . > > - Scott Quinn > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Mon Apr 25 15:11:41 2005 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: 25 Apr 2005 21:11:41 +0100 Subject: Cray picked up today In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 19:33, Dan Williams wrote: > Well I picked up the cray today, I'm not an expert but it looks like > it's either got 4 or 5 processors. It also seems to have around 30 4gb > hard drives. But there was one main problem it wouldn;t fit through > the door in my flat. The IBM 360 range ( http://www.windoweb.it/edpstory_new/eh1960_f31.jpg ) was made of modules no wider than a standard door ... should have gone for one of those :-) I'm not sure whether they kept to this for the bigger/later machines. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk Ph +44(0)1869-811059 http://www.ljw.me.uk From Tim at rikers.org Mon Apr 25 15:26:47 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:26:47 -0500 Subject: Seeking HP-2116A manual volume 2 Message-ID: <426D5287.8010500@Rikers.org> Bob and others: Al has scanned some HP-2116 manuals. I'm seeking the volume 2 manual for the HP-2116A. Al scanned the B manual, but the core stacks are different so other components are different as well. Does anyone have a copy of the HP-2116A volume 2 manual? Please? ;-) Many thanx to Al for the manuals that he put up! http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/2116/ I keep putting up more pics as I make progress: http://rikers.org/gallery/hardware -- Tim Riker - http://rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Linux Technologist BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Apr 25 15:45:41 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:45:41 -0500 Subject: Cray picked up today In-Reply-To: <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <200504251545.41945.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 25 April 2005 15:11, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 19:33, Dan Williams wrote: > > Well I picked up the cray today, I'm not an expert but it looks > > like it's either got 4 or 5 processors. It also seems to have > > around 30 4gb hard drives. But there was one main problem it > > wouldn;t fit through the door in my flat. > > > The IBM 360 range ( > http://www.windoweb.it/edpstory_new/eh1960_f31.jpg ) was made of > modules no wider than a standard door ... should have gone for one of > those :-) > I'm not sure whether they kept to this for the bigger/later machines. My S/390 9672-RC4 fit nicely through the door of my apartment...but there was still some pain maneuvering it once inside. I don't think it'd fit through the door to the house I'm living in right now (and my landlord would *definitely* get upset if I had to enlarge the door to fit. Fortunately, it can reside in the garage, but that's getting a bit full at the moment. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 25 15:46:16 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: from "Eric J Korpela" at Apr 24, 2005 09:43:01 PM Message-ID: <200504252046.j3PKkGLZ010595@onyx.spiritone.com> > If you want better, you'll need to use the RGB output or stick with > the monochrome modes. Even if you convert the RGB into composite it > might be a win over the built in composite. It does display just fine on the monitor. Of course I don't have room to keep a full //gs setup (in my case that includes the //gs, keyboard/mouse, monitor, SyQuest 44, 2 3.5" floppies, and a 5.25" floppy). Which was why I was attempting to ditch the monitor. I'm going to have to do some more playing and see if I can squeeze everything in somewhere. Zane From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 15:53:37 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:53:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <426D2348.8EB78BE2@msm.umr.edu> References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> <20050424202215.B1279@localhost> <426D2348.8EB78BE2@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050425134952.M1279@localhost> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, jim stephens wrote: > The other thing you mentioned but didn't comment on the condition of is > the grating and the optical sensor for said. are they clean? also, on > the drive's we had, of the western dynex and microdata variety, you > could physically feel the drive or the voice coil and feel it vibrating > when there was a servo problem, in most cases, or hear a difference > in the seeks as it failed. It's pretty clean; I have not touched it. I can RTFM on cleaning it, but the drive was very clean to begin with. If there's a servo problem it's pretty subtle. I'm talking 10% error rate (or whatever) not 100%. Mostly it reports in higher cylinder numbers. This isn't a go/nogo problem -- I wish! I will however stare at it and look for bulk odd behavior first. I'm sure there's an error voltage off the servo I can look at, as well as other nice closed-loop thingies. The documentation is excellent, it has huge waveform diagrams and state diagrams (flow charts). From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 15:56:50 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 13:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility (dd is one) In-Reply-To: <1114439099.23816.20.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1114439099.23816.20.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050425135445.L1279@localhost> freebsd 5.3 $ man dd ... conv=value[,value ...] Where value is one of the symbols from the following list. ... noerror Do not stop processing on an input error. When an input error occurs, a diagnostic message followed by the current input and output block counts will be writ- ten to the standard error output in the same format as the standard completion message. If the sync conver- sion is also specified, any missing input data will be replaced with NUL bytes (or with spaces if a block ori- ented conversion value was specified) and processed as a normal input buffer. If the fillchar option is spec- ified, the fill char provided on the command line will override the automatic selection of fill character. If the sync conversion is not specified, the input block is omitted from the output. On input files which are not tapes or pipes, the file offset will be positioned past the block in which the error occurred using lseek(2). ... sync Pad every input block to the input buffer size. Spaces are used for pad bytes if a block oriented conversion value is specified, otherwise NUL bytes are used. From dhbarr at gmail.com Mon Apr 25 16:01:16 2005 From: dhbarr at gmail.com (David H. Barr) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:01:16 -0500 Subject: Cray picked up today In-Reply-To: <200504251545.41945.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> <200504251545.41945.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 4/25/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 25 April 2005 15:11, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > > On Mon, 2005-04-25 at 19:33, Dan Williams wrote: > > > wouldn;t fit through the door in my flat. > > The IBM 360 range ( > > http://www.windoweb.it/edpstory_new/eh1960_f31.jpg ) was made of > > modules no wider than a standard door ... should have gone for one of > there was still some pain maneuvering it once inside. I don't think > it'd fit through the door to the house I'm living in right now (and my > landlord would *definitely* get upset if I had to enlarge the door to fit. You can get approx. 2-3" extra clearance by simply removing the ?rails? and sometimes even the face boards that cover the actual posts which support the lintel. This is trivial to do with a pry bar and claw hammer on most typical apartments and homes. It also works to get a baja car and several large rocks into the front lobby of your school's engineering department as a prank. -dhbarr. ?not sure what these are called, but they are inside the post and lintels and form an outline of the door? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Apr 25 16:52:50 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:52:50 +0100 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <200504251433.28014.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <200504252152.j3PLqq09055273@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: 25 April 2005 19:33 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle > > > I am starting to get curious. Out of all my machines the > one I get the most > requests for is the sentinal pro dongle. > > Is there a pending patent case? > Is the software that required these still in use or demand? In my experience it is - Newspaper publishers that user older versions of Autologic's Grafix RIP (now Agfa/Arkitex Grafix RIP) TIFF to PDF converter software all need a Sentinel dongle per machine. I'm assuming you mean the parallel port dongle rather than the newer SuperPro USB keys? cheers a From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 16:50:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 14:50:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm trying to put the write the two emulator images from the > following source > http://www.iosphere.net/%7eeric/wizardry/weeping_snows.htm > to 5.25" floppies. > > I downloaded them and DSK2FILE.SHK on my G5, copied them to a FAT > floppy on my G5, and then read the floppy on my PowerBook 540c, which > I then used to write the files out to a 800KB ProDOS floppy. I > booted System 6 on my //gs from its SyQuest 44, and copied the floppy > to the disk cartridge. Then I unshrunk the DSK2FILE.SHK and used the > app to write the two Weeping Snows files to 5.25" floppy. Each one > took ~10-15 minutes to write, and now that I'm done, I can't seem to > access them. > > Any idea on how on earth I should get these written to floppy? Sounds like you did everything right, but it should've have taken 10-15 minutes to write each floppy. It should've only taken a minute for each. Are you using double density floppies? Do not use high density...it will only give you problems. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 17:03:09 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: looking for IMSAI IM-48 docs In-Reply-To: <200504251804.LAA08242@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Someone at one of the earlier VCF's had one that controlled > stuff in a doll house. Maybe someone can remember who > that was?? That was Todd Fischer, and he was demoing the original IMSAI Dollhouse, a literal dollhouse with lights and stuff being controlled by the IMSAI to demonstrate the home control application developed for the IMP-48. I forwarded Allison's request to Todd. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Apr 25 17:14:06 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Apr 25, 2005 02:50:48 PM Message-ID: <200504252214.j3PME6uD013413@onyx.spiritone.com> > Sounds like you did everything right, but it should've have taken 10-15 > minutes to write each floppy. It should've only taken a minute for each. > Are you using double density floppies? Do not use high density...it will > only give you problems. I'd thought that I was doing it right. I'm using brand new DS DD floppies, I'm not sure how old, but less than 20 years old, and they've been stored under good conditions thier entire life). I thought that was an insane amount of time to take. The drive works for reading, I wonder if it has issues with writting. I just had a thought, should I have formated the floppy prior to trying to write the disk image to it? I wouldn't think DSK2FILE would care. Zane From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 17:26:41 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: <200504252214.j3PME6uD013413@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I just had a thought, should I have formated the floppy prior to trying to > write the disk image to it? I wouldn't think DSK2FILE would care. Hmm. Assuming DSK2FILE is lame (not hard to imagine considering the quality of free tools in general) and doesn't error out when it cannot write a sector, it could have been trying to write to each sector and failing for however many re-tries it was programmed to do so, which might explain why it took 10-15 minutes. It should have also assumed the disk is not formatted and formatted it for you, or at least it should tell you that you need to format the target disk in advance. At any rate, try formatting your target disk and then run DSK2FILE. If that doesn't work, find another program to write the image to disk, or write your own ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Apr 25 17:34:36 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:34:36 -0400 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <17004.62513.312000.786044@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050425182923.01dd6a90@mail.itm-inst.com> Not mentioned so far is dd_rescue, http://www.garloff.de/kurt/linux/ddrescue/ It copies in large chunks until an error is seen, then backs off to smaller reads, attempting to get what it can. You can restart a copy from a new point, which extends the current dump file to skip the area that hasn't been (or couldn't be) read. You can also read in reverse, backing up from the end of the media to the point of an error. There's a gnu program that does the same things, ddrescue http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/ddrescue.html. It seems to be slightly more automatic, but similar in operation to dd_rescue. -Rick From gordt at gordtulloch.com Mon Apr 25 16:36:21 2005 From: gordt at gordtulloch.com (gordt at gordtulloch.com) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 16:36:21 -0500 Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: <200504252214.j3PME6uD013413@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: I would assume you need to format the floppies with the appropriate format (DOS or ProDOS depending on what you're writing) - I need to do so on my IIGS with DSK2FILE so I presume you'd need to do so on the Mac... Regards, Gord cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote on 04/25/2005 05:14:06 PM: > > Sounds like you did everything right, but it should've have taken 10-15 > > minutes to write each floppy. It should've only taken a minute for each. > > Are you using double density floppies? Do not use high density...it will > > only give you problems. > > I'd thought that I was doing it right. I'm using brand new DS DD floppies, > I'm not sure how old, but less than 20 years old, and they've been stored > under good conditions thier entire life). I thought that was an insane > amount of time to take. The drive works for reading, I wonder if it has > issues with writting. > > I just had a thought, should I have formated the floppy prior to trying to > write the disk image to it? I wouldn't think DSK2FILE would care. > > Zane > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 17:28:39 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: References: <34090.64.169.63.74.1114422286.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <54897.207.145.53.202.1114468119.squirrel@207.145.53.202> I wrote about the Video Associate Labs VB-3 Microkeyer. Sellam replied: > Sweet! Where can I find one? :) No idea. I doubt that very many were sold. The prices was in the low thousands of dollars. I was given one in exchange for giving the company some of the software I'd written for it. If you can find out what happened to all my computer stuff that was lost in a move in the mid-1980s, maybe you can find it. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 17:31:19 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <17005.4527.707000.190182@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <87d5sic3ud.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> <17005.4527.707000.190182@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <55220.207.145.53.202.1114468279.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Paul wrote: > That would make sense. The normal assumption is that drivers do > retry. Not any more. SCSI and ATA drives are supposed to do that on their own, so if they return an error to the host, that's after they've retried multiple times. It may be possible to tell the drives to use different retry counts, or to hack the drivers on the host to do retries, or hack the application program to do retries. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 17:35:37 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <426D20B8.4090302@srv.net> References: <20050424092335.05a5de53.chenmel@earthlink.net> <426D20B8.4090302@srv.net> Message-ID: <55672.207.145.53.202.1114468537.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Kevin wrote: > Another one to look at is dmklib > http://dmklib.brouhaha.com/ > > That one worked for me to read several Kaypro disks under Linux. > I think it works the way you expect for bad sectors. If it gets read errors, it will omit those sectors from the DMK format output file. In other words, there will be a "hole" where that sector should have been. I don't recall what behavior you get if you ask the rfloppy program to write a "raw" image, or run the DMK image through dmk2raw. If I was thinking straight when I wrote it, I think the correct behavior would have been to put zeros in the raw image and write a warning message to stderr, but I might not have taken the time to code that. Glad to hear that it's been useful to someone! I wrote it when I needed to read some TRS-80 Color Computer OS-9 disks, and some Xerox 6085 disks, and various DEC RX01 8-inch disks. Unfortunately PC disk controllers are not capable of reading DEC RX02 double-density 8-inch disks, as DEC used a non-standard encoding (a modified form of MFM, though not M2FM, but with FM ID fields). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 17:39:49 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: <200504251817.LAA08247@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200504251817.LAA08247@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <56176.207.145.53.202.1114468789.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Dwight wrote: > I wrote it because I needed to get > the MFM information from disk that had the first track > set to FM while the others were MFM. Same problem I had to solve on Linux that led to my writing dmklib. > I tried 22disk without success being that my controller doesn't do > FM. Many of them don't. I got lucky; the on-board FDC on many Asus Pentium II/III motherboards could do it. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 17:47:57 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:47:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 360 (was Re: Cray picked up today) In-Reply-To: <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <57443.207.145.53.202.1114469277.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Lawrence wrote: > The IBM 360 range ( http://www.windoweb.it/edpstory_new/eh1960_f31.jpg ) > was made of modules no wider than a standard door ... should have gone > for one of those :-) If you (or anyone) know of any 360 or 370 machines that are available, please let me know, as I'd like to try to get another 360 or 370 for the Computer History Museum (www.computerhistory.org). It should be noted that I'm not officially acting on their behalf; I only do volunteer work (e.g., PDP-1 Restoration Project), and they haven't asked me to find more machines for them. I just think they should have them. :-) Currently CHM has an IBM 360/30. The internal condition is apparently not very good, though I haven't looked inside it myself. But I really hope that we can restore some model of 360 (or 370) in the future. Having an operational 360 system that people could submit jobs to via punched cards (or maybe RJE over the internet) would really rock! The CHM setup includes some 2311 disk drives and 24xx tape drives, but apparently not control units for them. And I'm willing to donate a 2540 Card Read Punch to CHM to use with it, but I don't have the 2821 control unit that was used for that and the 1403 printer. :-( Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 18:13:41 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:13:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <0IFH00GCJ5WZBUL4@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 24, 5 07:44:13 pm Message-ID: > > > > >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Sun, 24 Apr 2005 22:02:54 +0100 (BST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >1R5 = DK91 == Pentagrid changer > >1U5 = DAF92 == Detector and 1st audio > >1T4 = DF91 == IF amplifier > >3V5 isn't in the equivalents book, but 3V4 = DL94 == audio output > > > >And of course the 117Z4 is a rectifier with a 117V filament. > > I have the RCA small tube handbook. I started as a bag carrying > radio tech in the 70s and still fix stuff. I started with tubes Sure.... The reason I looked up the equivalents is that I don't know US valve numbers that well, and they don't tell me that much cabout the valve. The Philips/Mullard numbers are much more useful in that respsect -- the initial 'D' means a 1.5V filament (E would be 6.3V, etc), the other letters give the electrode structure (A = diode, F = signal pentode, K = heptode or octode frequency changer, with the phantom cathode type of design (H would be a hexode or heptode designed for a separate oscillator), L = output pentode, etc...) and the '9' tells me it's a 7 pin miniature base (B7G). Knowing what the valves were gave me a good idea as to the design of the set (that sort of line-up was used in 99% of UK battery sets too), and the possible filament voltages. > > >I am sure I don't need to warn you about this, but it's almost certainly > >a live chassis set when run off the mains. > > I bought and keep a isolation transformer for just such repairs when > needed back in 1969. However that radio has a phenolic case thats > in good shape and is therefor insulated. Sure. My warning, again, was based on the fact that you're likely to get inside the set (but as I said, I am sure you realised the dangers anyhow). > > > > >> If it breaks I will. Believe it or not I use it to listen to local station > >> for ball games. > > > >No why on eart hwould oyu want to do that??? > > The local station for RED SOX baseball is WEEI 850khz! It's the best > AM radio I have. I have spares for the tubes. My comment was not 'why would you want to listen to that radio' (that is obvious, valve radios are good to listen to), but 'why would you want to listen to sports when there's plenty of hacking to do' ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 18:26:21 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:26:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <34097.64.169.63.74.1114422361.squirrel@64.169.63.74> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 25, 5 02:46:01 am Message-ID: > Possibly the PAL version had only monochrome composite video; I > wouldn't know. The NTSC version definitely had color composite > video. I know that if you do the 50Hz video mod to the Apple ][ (as mentioned in the reference manual), the video output is no known stnadard. It's closer to NTSC than PAL (in that there's no carrier phase switch or anything like that), but the subcarrier frequency (IIRC) is nothing standard. Maybe PAL //gs's do the same sort of thing -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 18:18:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:18:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <20050424161114.U1279@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Apr 24, 5 04:55:35 pm Message-ID: > I suspect the Read/Write Board. So I ordered modern monolithic > replacements for the remaining old mono chips from Digikey, and > shotgunned all the old electrolytics etc for good measure, in two > places electrolytics replaced with tantalums (didn't have > .82uF's). I am never in favour of shotgun replacements. It's the brother of board-swapping in that you don't know what the fault was, you don't know you've found it, so you can't know it's fixed. Now, you say you _susepct_ the read/write board. Do you have a good reason for this? You're getting random errors (so presumably it works sometimes, you can get this drive to read/write). It might be the read/write board. It might be the PSU. It might be the head position servo. Etc. IMHO you need to do a lot more tests. > After warm-up, it's worse. Signals all through the path look COuld this be a thermal problem? Have you tried heat/freezer on chips in the read chain and the servo? > OK, hot and cold. I can see no difference, but this is 10 MHz > NRZ data, in a two-state amp with AGC. I think I'm screwed. Have you looked at the servo waveforms? Does this drive use the standard optical scale transduver? What do the outputs from that look like? What about the positioner drive signal? -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Mon Apr 25 19:51:31 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:51:31 -0700 Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> <20050424202215.B1279@localhost> <426D2348.8EB78BE2@msm.umr.edu> <20050425134952.M1279@localhost> Message-ID: <426D9093.B8495E33@msm.umr.edu> I was always counciled never to ever touch the reticules, or the sensors, unless something dirtied them. And then in the field, replace them if that was the case. There was no recommended way to clean them then. Now you have to try. At microdata, the material used to make the image on the reticules was not something I was ever told, and for both the dynex, and the microdata drives, they were supposedly the same. I'd be very very nervous to touch them. I did see one case though where there was strange things across all heads. You have gotten good suggestions from about everyone else on most the rest I would suggest. hope you sort them out. I have a few Microdata 9000's which are 5+5 that I will want to fire off sometime, so I am watching your experience with great interest. Thanks for such a detailed description. jim Tom Jennings wrote: > On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, jim stephens wrote: From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 19:26:47 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 17:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: References: <20050424161114.U1279@localhost> from "Tom Jennings" at Apr 24, 5 04:55:35 pm Message-ID: <35958.207.145.53.202.1114475207.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Tony wrote: > I am never in favour of shotgun replacements. It's the brother of > board-swapping in that you don't know what the fault was, you don't know > you've found it, so you can't know it's fixed. I'm not a fan of shotgun replacements. Board-swapping can be a useful diagnostic measure, in that if you swap a board out and the machine starts working, you have most likely isolated the fault to that board, making it easier to focus your efforts to track down the actual failed component. I've found this technique to be especially useful when the symptom is sporadic flakyness. Of course, if you're not careful, it's possible that there was some fault that damaged that board and will damage the one you swap into its place. At the very least the power supply voltages should be checked before board swapping. Eric From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Apr 25 20:00:22 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:00:22 -0400 Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <0IFJ007BN44KVWXD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:13:41 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Sure.... The reason I looked up the equivalents is that I don't know US >valve numbers that well, and they don't tell me that much cabout the >valve. The Philips/Mullard numbers are much more useful in that respsect >-- the initial 'D' means a 1.5V filament (E would be 6.3V, etc), the >other letters give the electrode structure (A = diode, F = signal >pentode, K = heptode or octode frequency changer, with the phantom >cathode type of design (H would be a hexode or heptode designed for a >separate oscillator), L = output pentode, etc...) and the '9' tells me >it's a 7 pin miniature base (B7G). I also have a Phillips/Mullard and Eimac manuals. I should have used numbers more common there. I see both here so it's no big deal. For example a homebrew RX for 80/75m uses an eclectic mix, 6AN8 Mix/LO, 6AU6 455khz IF, 6BH6 455khz regenerative detector, 6DS4 BFO, and an ELC84 first audio and power output. All built into a 7x7x2.5" chassis with power transformer and all stages shielded as needed. Works very nice. >Sure. My warning, again, was based on the fact that you're likely to get >inside the set (but as I said, I am sure you realised the dangers anyhow). The dangers are less here with 117V nominal mains. However I've been at this racket for over 35 years. It's usually me telling others to be careful and lockout/tagout. >> The local station for RED SOX baseball is WEEI 850khz! It's the best >> AM radio I have. I have spares for the tubes. > >My comment was not 'why would you want to listen to that radio' (that is >obvious, valve radios are good to listen to), but 'why would you want to >listen to sports when there's plenty of hacking to do' ;-) Simple matter Holmes, background noise. That and I live near Boston! Besides if it's not a Sox game it's likely to be 6 Meter band action if any in the background. Allison From vcf at siconic.com Mon Apr 25 20:11:13 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 18:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 gordt at gordtulloch.com wrote: > I would assume you need to format the floppies with the appropriate format > (DOS or ProDOS depending on what you're writing) - I need to do so on my > IIGS with DSK2FILE so I presume you'd need to do so on the Mac... This is a disk image tool so it doesn't matter what OS you use to format the disk, just as long as the disk is formatted. If indeed DSK2FILE requires the disk to be pre-formatted as you say then that's probably what was causing the troubles Zane was having. Lame lame lame. Some people shouldn't be allowed to write software. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Apr 25 20:09:24 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:09:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <35958.207.145.53.202.1114475207.squirrel@207.145.53.202> from "Eric Smith" at Apr 25, 5 05:26:47 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > > I am never in favour of shotgun replacements. It's the brother of > > board-swapping in that you don't know what the fault was, you don't know > > you've found it, so you can't know it's fixed. > > I'm not a fan of shotgun replacements. Board-swapping can be a useful > diagnostic measure, in that if you swap a board out and the machine > starts working, you have most likely isolated the fault to that board, With the emphasiss on 'likely'... I have actually seen a case like that (somewhat simplified) : 2 modules, A and B. Module A outputs a signal to B. A was marginal, but withing spec on timing, B was just out of spec. System failed. Replacing _A_ with one that was less marginal got the system to work. So you spend a long time working on the old module A, which in fact is working within spec, missing the fact that B is the problem. > making it easier to focus your efforts to track down the actual failed > component. > > I've found this technique to be especially useful when the symptom is > sporadic flakyness. And that's the one time I'd never use it. Intermittant faults are a pain to trace because you don't know you've fixed them (Murphey's law will ensure tha the machine works fro a bit after you've done something to it :-)). With such faults you _must_ find the real cause and put it right. Swap modules, you might think you've traced the fault to a particular module, only for it to come back and bite you later on because it was somewhere totally different. -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 25 20:47:59 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:47:59 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A couple of days ago several people were discussing their problems with a couple of DG Novas. I mentioned that I had just seen one in a scrap yard and a couple of people asked me to check on getting it for parts. I went back there today and the Nova was still there and it looks complete. HOWEVER the owner of the yard informed me that he is no longer selling ANY surplus to anybody for any reason. I talked to him and found out that the US Government is now requiring all surplus and scrap dealers to keep DETAILED records of EVERY piece of equipment that they sell! Furthermore they must ensure that NONE of it goes overseas. As you can imagine there's no way that a scrap yard owner can handle the massive amounts of paperwork that would be involved and there is absolutely no way to ensure that none of it goes overseas. Supposedly this is coming from the Department of Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed that every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) This is a requirement of the US Government but the owner says that a number of independent companies are also giving him the same requirement. However he says that it's not worth the trouble to try and keep the government/non-government stuff separate, he's just going to destroy everything! If this is as drastic as it sounds then I think we've seen the end of surplus forever! Any thoughts on this? Joe From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Apr 25 21:07:58 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:07:58 -0500 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050425210418.02311270@mail.ubanproductions.com> It's a complete shame. There is a significant industry that is based on the resale of surplus equipment. To just destroy it needlessly pollutes, throws away jobs, and does not support the economy. To what end does the destruction of antique equipment, which has already been stripped of any information that might further nefarious individuals or wayward countries, going to prevent another 9/11 incedent? --tom At 09:47 PM 4/25/2005 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > A couple of days ago several people were discussing their problems with >a couple of DG Novas. I mentioned that I had just seen one in a scrap yard >and a couple of people asked me to check on getting it for parts. I went >back there today and the Nova was still there and it looks complete. >HOWEVER the owner of the yard informed me that he is no longer selling ANY >surplus to anybody for any reason. I talked to him and found out that the >US Government is now requiring all surplus and scrap dealers to keep >DETAILED records of EVERY piece of equipment that they sell! Furthermore >they must ensure that NONE of it goes overseas. As you can imagine there's >no way that a scrap yard owner can handle the massive amounts of paperwork >that would be involved and there is absolutely no way to ensure that none >of it goes overseas. Supposedly this is coming from the Department of >Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed that >every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) This is a >requirement of the US Government but the owner says that a number of >independent companies are also giving him the same requirement. However he >says that it's not worth the trouble to try and keep the >government/non-government stuff separate, he's just going to destroy >everything! If this is as drastic as it sounds then I think we've seen the >end of surplus forever! > > Any thoughts on this? > > Joe From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 25 21:08:11 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:08:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > Any thoughts on this? The sky is not falling. Your contact is probably just getting scared, and will probably come to his senses after some time. The government is getting far more restrictive with EUCs and demil policies (this goes back to the 1990s), and because of this, surplus "died" back then. It still came out. It still comes out to this day (although not as much cool stuff is spared from demil). Looks at the way DRMS works - often things are sold as piles, with a few things tagged and logged on the side to make it look official (remember the bored clerks that have to do this stuff - it is much easier to ignore serials and model numbers when 5 PM is approaching! Lots of fun things are found in those piles - often things that really ought not to get out*. If the government does not have the complete numbers of what got out - what good will the scrapman's paper be? As you know, but others may not, if you get in good with a scrap guy, he will sell you just about anything, provided you don't cross him. *Like late model military radios, as in the kind that show up on Ebay from time to time. They should not be out at all - those that are were hidden in the "piles" and are stolen! William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 25 20:50:50 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:50:50 -0400 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <200504251433.28014.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> What or who is requesting it? I don't understand why a person would want one. They would not only have to have the right brand, they'd also have to have THE right dongle! AFIK every dongle is unique. Joe At 02:33 PM 4/25/05 -0400, you wrote: > >I am starting to get curious. Out of all my machines the one I get the most >requests for is the sentinal pro dongle. > >Is there a pending patent case? >Is the software that required these still in use or demand? > >this one is labelled > >1294/6558 >C.B. Microtek ltd >----------------------------------- >4F33BH-B >9451L52135 > >-- >Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Apr 25 20:57:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:57:10 -0400 Subject: Tektronix Terminal manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050425113326.024cafe0@mail.ubanproductions.com> <3.0.6.32.20050425120735.015aa6d0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.2.0.9.0.20050425113326.024cafe0@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050425215710.00941500@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:08 PM 4/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >Joe; > >I take it you must have sold the scanner. I didn't get the one in Oregon. Oh, I thought you did. Yes, I still have this one. Trades? > >To the recorder... >How long would scanning the manuals take? I have several boxes of TEK >manuals that should be recorded including all the terminals. Tom is up near Chicago. That's closer than Florida but now by a lot. > >Probably should be done closer to Oregon than Florida, though. Hint: USPS media rate shipping is CHEAP! I sent 30+ pounds of disks to Al K and it only cost about $21. Joe > >Paxton >Astoria, OR > > > > >-- >Paxton Hoag >Astoria, OR >USA > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Apr 25 21:27:18 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:27:18 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: Message-ID: <017e01c54a07$77fddec0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:08 PM Subject: Re: End of Surplus? > > Any thoughts on this? > > The sky is not falling. Your contact is probably just getting scared, and > will probably come to his senses after some time. > > The government is getting far more restrictive with EUCs and demil > policies (this goes back to the 1990s), and because of this, surplus > "died" back then. It still came out. It still comes out to this day > (although not as much cool stuff is spared from demil). > > Looks at the way DRMS works - often things are sold as piles, with a few > things tagged and logged on the side to make it look official (remember > the bored clerks that have to do this stuff - it is much easier to ignore > serials and model numbers when 5 PM is approaching! Lots of fun things are > found in those piles - often things that really ought not to get out*. If > the government does not have the complete numbers of what got out - what > good will the scrapman's paper be? > > As you know, but others may not, if you get in good with a scrap guy, he > will sell you just about anything, provided you don't cross him. > > *Like late model military radios, as in the kind that show up on Ebay from > time to time. They should not be out at all - those that are were hidden > in the "piles" and are stolen! > > William Donzelli > aw288 at osfn.org > It might be nothing if there is just a small fine for not doing the proper paperwork. Once you have jail time associated with selling older equipment without paperwork (and an agency willing and able to police it) then the scrapper will take it seriously. Reminds me of the laws in Ohio about buying fireworks, you have to sign a paper stating that you will transport the items out of state (I always picked Mars PA) within a certain time period. Every block has fireworks on the 4th, and I know of nobody even questioned about it. If nobody will enforce the law (unlike speeding tickets the locals would not make any money out of it) then who cares. From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 21:30:29 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:30:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050425192922.Q1279@localhost> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: >> I have the RCA small tube handbook. I started as a bag carrying >> radio tech in the 70s and still fix stuff. I started with tubes > > Sure.... The reason I looked up the equivalents is that I don't know US > valve numbers that well, and they don't tell me that much cabout the FYI, I have a big listing of non-receiving tubes online here: http://wps.com/archives/tube-datasheets/index.html From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Apr 25 21:31:58 2005 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 22:31:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <017e01c54a07$77fddec0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > It might be nothing if there is just a small fine for not doing the proper > paperwork. Once you have jail time associated with selling older equipment > without paperwork (and an agency willing and able to police it) then the > scrapper will take it seriously. Not a bunch has changed - just more EUC (End User Certificates - the paperwork). Yes, most scrappers pay attention to them, but if an item doesn't start with one (or require one), and the scrapper knows and trusts his customer, sales will still be made. William Donzelli aw288 at osfn.org From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Apr 25 21:54:51 2005 From: tponsford at theriver.com (tom ponsford) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:54:51 -0700 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <426DAD7B.7080304@theriver.com> Hi All! Joe R. wrote: > A couple of days ago several people were discussing their problems with >a couple of DG Novas. I mentioned that I had just seen one in a scrap yard >and a couple of people asked me to check on getting it for parts. I went >back there today and the Nova was still there and it looks complete. >HOWEVER the owner of the yard informed me that he is no longer selling ANY >surplus to anybody for any reason. I talked to him and found out that the >US Government is now requiring all surplus and scrap dealers to keep >DETAILED records of EVERY piece of equipment that they sell! > This is not entirely correct. It only applies to surplus from U.S. Government contracts, or is funded by U.S Government. I frequently buy a lot of surplus from the University of Arizona. They knew of these restrictions several months ago. However the University deems it only applies to surplus/salvage from U.S. Governent contracts, as the U of A recieves a majority of its funding from the State of Arizona. a majority of it's surplus is sold w/o any such restrictions. Let me point out that the University has, for a very long time, had a very accurate inventory control system. All inventory is tracked through out the university, and even at the surplus sales level, there is a final "check-off" as we load the stuff into our cars. The University continue to dispose of surplus equipment from U.S. Gov. contracts, the equipment deemed to have a "nefarious" value like lets say a poweful laser, are usually sold dismantled, AND with an affifdavit by the buyer that is not to be sold/exported out of the U.S. I also have bought items from the various military bases here in Arizona through thier surplus property auctions, They too, follow the same routines as the U of A. Remember, surplus and salvage dealers BUY the items from the various goverment/private businesses. These businesses have to follow the same rules as ther salvage agent. They would not be selling it to him as salvage, had they felt the requirements were too draconian. > Furthermore they must ensure that NONE of it goes overseas. > Not true also, there are no provisions in any Homeland Security act that specifically prohibit any surplus/obsolete equipment from beind sold overseas. There are specific prohibitions under the Dept of Commerce and now Homeland Security for certain classes of computer/scientific equipment sales. They have been more detailed than previous to 9/11. But there is no blanket restriction. As you can imagine there's no way that a scrap yard owner can handle the massive amounts of paperwork that would be involved and there is absolutely no way to ensure that none of it goes There isn't a "massive amount of papework" just a few affidavits. I suspect he's just too lazy to find out for himself. > this is coming from the Department of >Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed that >every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) > Yes, the Department of Homeland Security is a hotbed of officious twits, (going up the whole chain of command) and have overreacted to the 9/11 events with alarming alacrity, but that's what this administration does best: Scare the pant's off you, impose ill-concieved measures that not only don't percieve the problem but in effect, add to it. But they are especillay fond at taking advantage of peoples ignorance/or indifference. You scrap dealers is one such person. >This is a requirement of the US Government but the owner says that a number of >independent companies are also giving him the same requirement. > Probably not, unless they are selling high tech equipment from U.S. old government contracts to be bought by overseas buyers. >However he says that it's not worth the trouble to try and keep the >government/non-government stuff separate, he's just going to destroy >everything! If this is as drastic as it sounds then I think we've seen the >end of surplus forever! > > Most likely he will be out of business soon. Hopefully replaced by people who are not scared and can most likely read. > Any thoughts on this? > > Joe > > > I bough several items within the last month, that were all part of obsolete/surplus equipment that came from U.S. Government products. First at the U of A, and then from Davis-Montham Air base and from Ft Huachuca. All U.S. surplus including military surplus...and no problems, and furthermore were not told of any draconian measures or the ending of these surplus auctions. Allthough I wouldn't doubt for a minute these types of meausures could be taken, and especially from this administration. I suspect your scrap dealer really doesn't understand the requirements. Cheers Tom > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Apr 25 21:01:23 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 19:01:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <36058.64.169.63.74.1114480883.squirrel@64.169.63.74> > Any thoughts on this? Yes. My thought is that if you walk into the surplus joint in person, and negotiate the purchase of a piece of equipment that is sitting there, the federal government has no power (constitutional authority) to prevent the sale, since it is not interstate commerce. And you could probably spend twenty years and millions of dollars trying to fight it. :-( It sounds fishy to me. Have any other local surplus dealers said anything similar? Can you get them to show you any paperwork they received notifying them of this requirement, or tell you what law (U.S. Code) or Regulation (Code of Federal Regulations) they're complying with? It's not like the government can just impose something like this without any official paperwork. It seems more likely that the one dealer has decided that he doesn't want to hassle with the public any more, and is trying to shift the blame to the government. Eric From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Mon Apr 25 22:45:44 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 20:45:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CDC Cyber 170 manual trade? Message-ID: <20050426034544.23555.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> I was going through all my manuals tonight and found a beautiful condition Hardware Reference Manual for a CDC Cyber 170 dated 1979. I collect DEC so I have no use for it. Not sure how desirable it is but I'll trade for some VAX 6000 stuff. Boards, manuals, software, etc. Or if not, I can send it out to anyone who really needs it for their collection. Thanks, Brian. From cctalk at randy482.com Mon Apr 25 23:13:35 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 23:13:35 -0500 Subject: CDC Cyber 170 manual trade? References: <20050426034544.23555.qmail@web53302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001201c54a16$54db47c0$323dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Brian Roth" Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:45 PM >I was going through all my manuals tonight and found a > beautiful condition Hardware Reference Manual for a > CDC Cyber 170 dated 1979. I collect DEC so I have no > use for it. > > Not sure how desirable it is but I'll trade for some > VAX 6000 stuff. Boards, manuals, software, etc. > > Or if not, I can send it out to anyone who really > needs it for their collection. > > Thanks, > Brian. I collect and post manuals but it is outside of what I deal with. If no one offers to trade for it consider sending it to AL at bitsavers.org. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From tomj at wps.com Mon Apr 25 23:48:42 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 21:48:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: my Data General Nova 4/X, disk woes continue In-Reply-To: <426D9093.B8495E33@msm.umr.edu> References: <0IFH00GEF9POC7N5@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> <20050424185657.V1279@localhost> <20050424202215.B1279@localhost> <426D2348.8EB78BE2@msm.umr.edu> <20050425134952.M1279@localhost> <426D9093.B8495E33@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20050425214545.F1279@localhost> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, jim stephens wrote: > I was always counciled never to ever touch the reticules, or the > sensors, unless something dirtied them. And then in the field, > replace them if that was the case. There was no recommended > way to clean them then. Now you have to try. It's clear from the way they work these are extremely touchy. I'll RTFM before I do anything, though I won't dwell on this, I don't think it's the problem. > At microdata, the material used to make the image on the reticules > was not something I was ever told, I belive the DG manuals say the mystery material is "glass" :-) Makes sense. Hard, flat, stable, cheap. From Saquinn624 at aol.com Mon Apr 25 23:50:32 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 00:50:32 EDT Subject: Stuff in Seattle area Message-ID: <1a2.32618887.2f9f2298@aol.com> The software's been claimed, however the following is still available: Wyse WY-150 terminal Silicon Graphics Indigo2 IMPACT R4k/250 Solid/ [one Solid/Extreme] Indy R5k 150 SC/ XL8 disks went out, but copies of install media can be made. HP 9000/800 H50, >500MB RAM IBM P-200 20" with 13W3 cable Computone ISA multiport serial card SyQuest 44MB SCSI drive several unmentionables (ASUS I---l P-----m boards w/233MHz and RAM, AT factor). From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 26 01:12:08 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 02:12:08 -0400 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504260212.09498.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On April 25, 2005 9:50 pm, Joe R. wrote: > What or who is requesting it? I don't understand why a person would want > one. They would not only have to have the right brand, they'd also have to > have THE right dongle! AFIK every dongle is unique. These are a few of the messages from my inbox: "I am interested in the sentinal pro dongle. send info" "I noticed you have a Rainbow Sentinal Pro on the list of odds and ends, i was wondering if maybe it was for sale. Please contact me back at as soon as possible, and thank you for your time." "i noticed on your web page that you have a Rainbow sentinal pro dongle.....Would you consider selling it to me" "I know which software it is for, but its not your normal run of the mill software. If you decide on selling it please give me first refusal" One of the surplus dealers in town has a box of them. -- From spedraja at ono.com Tue Apr 26 01:25:49 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (spedraja at ono.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:25:49 +0200 Subject: Asunto: End of Surplus? Message-ID: <424AACBE00016290@resmta03.ono.com> Hello. >Supposedly this is coming from the Department of >Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed that >every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) One of my hobbies is the history, and the world politics tracking and analisis. There are some patterns repeated from time to time in all the world. This is one of it. The drama itself stays there, and everybody remembers the victims periodically; but the shock is used like a way where the water can flood. And what is the reason to justify the use of this way ? The Security, of course :-) And, please, don't try to say nothing about it or you will be arrested. The Security reason, joined with the thinking of the majority of the people about "I don't wnat problems" works very well. And this gives to the industry something that goes directly to the recycle plant of HP that someone did mention in other message. Sincerely, is the better excuse that I see in my life. And is almost sure that it will work. The good part (for someone), I suppose, is about the progressive growing of the cotization of the old computer equipment "of collection". The economy is incredible. Cheers Sergio From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 26 08:26:26 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:26:26 -0400 Subject: Need good disk dump utility References: <87d5sic3ud.fsf@tigerman.ealaddin.org> <17005.4527.707000.190182@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <55220.207.145.53.202.1114468279.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <17006.16770.717000.243123@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> Paul wrote: >> That would make sense. The normal assumption is that drivers do >> retry. Eric> Not any more. SCSI and ATA drives are supposed to do that on Eric> their own, so if they return an error to the host, that's after Eric> they've retried multiple times. Ok, my point really was that retrying *above* the driver layer isn't likely to be useful. Meanwhile, the disk drivers I know do include error recovery with retries after a disk returns an error. Second guessing disk drives turns out to be useful. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 26 08:38:40 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:38:40 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17006.17504.945000.899169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> A couple of days ago several people were discussing their Joe> problems with a couple of DG Novas. I mentioned that I had just Joe> seen one in a scrap yard and a couple of people asked me to Joe> check on getting it for parts. I went back there today and the Joe> Nova was still there and it looks complete. HOWEVER the owner Joe> of the yard informed me that he is no longer selling ANY surplus Joe> to anybody for any reason. I talked to him and found out that Joe> the US Government is now requiring all surplus and scrap dealers Joe> to keep DETAILED records of EVERY piece of equipment that they Joe> sell! Furthermore they must ensure that NONE of it goes Joe> overseas. It sounds like a severely scrambled interpretation of the export control regulations that have existed in the USA for many years -- long before 9/11. Yes, people often blame 9/11 for all sorts of things, and not too long ago there was a long thread on this list where export restrictions were wrongly blamed on 9/11. Detailed records of everything sold? Bizarre. Ensuring nothing gets overseas? Makes no sense. What DOES make sense is "if it goes out of the country, look at the export regulations". And for surplus equipment that can indeed be onerous, because it may not be clear what specific rule applies to, say, a 20 year old Cray, or even a 20 year old Nova. paul From guerney at bigpond.com Tue Apr 26 07:38:50 2005 From: guerney at bigpond.com (Phil Guerney) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:38:50 +1000 Subject: Microfiche scanning References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain><10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org><10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><42682027.2030407@oldskool.org><10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <42692565.5070804@srv.net> Message-ID: <012c01c54a5c$e646bf50$8cd8828a@wolfie> Kevin said > Get a scanner that has the capability of scanning slides. > (Many epson can do this, esp. the Perfection series). I went back through this thread to see if anyone mentioned this series of Epson scanners. My model is the Perfection 4870 and I think the current equivalent is the 4990. They have a full width moving light source in the lid with a 10x8 scanning area for transparencies (scans a batch of 25 x 35mm frames unattended) and will do 4800x9600 (optical) if you need it. I have not scanned fiche, but I have scanned 8mm home movie film frames and the results are remarkable. If it can handle that, then B&W fiche should be doable (and faster), and you could batch up quite a few them to scan at once. Comes with Abbyy FineReader OCR software which handles just about everything I have given it - maybe fiche text as well? Phil From gtulloch at shaw.ca Tue Apr 26 08:52:36 2005 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (Gordon Tulloch) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 08:52:36 -0500 Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images Message-ID: <1af9f9f1af9f74.1af9f741af9f9f@shaw.ca> Indeed, one would expect that a disk image utility would write the whole formatted image on the disk and be done with it. I had all sorts of problems writing disk images on the target platform that I thought were communications related, which disappeared when I formatted the disks. Interestingly, CP/M images seem to write just fine on DOS formatted disks so go figure. Regards, Gord ----- Original Message ----- From: Vintage Computer Festival Date: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:11 pm Subject: Re: Apple // Emulator Disk Images > On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 gordt at gordtulloch.com wrote: > > > I would assume you need to format the floppies with the > appropriate format > > (DOS or ProDOS depending on what you're writing) - I need to do > so on my > > IIGS with DSK2FILE so I presume you'd need to do so on the Mac... > > This is a disk image tool so it doesn't matter what OS you use to > formatthe disk, just as long as the disk is formatted. > > If indeed DSK2FILE requires the disk to be pre-formatted as you > say then > that's probably what was causing the troubles Zane was having. > Lame lame > lame. Some people shouldn't be allowed to write software. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 09:20:10 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:20:10 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <36058.64.169.63.74.1114480883.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426102010.0095e8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:01 PM 4/25/05 -0700, you wrote: >> Any thoughts on this? > >Yes. My thought is that if you walk into the surplus joint in person, >and negotiate the purchase of a piece of equipment that is sitting there, >the federal government has no power (constitutional authority) to >prevent the sale, since it is not interstate commerce. > >And you could probably spend twenty years and millions of dollars trying >to fight it. :-( > >It sounds fishy to me. Have any other local surplus dealers said anything >similar? I've heard (second hand) that they have but none of the ones that I deal with have. Can you get them to show you any paperwork they received >notifying them of this requirement, or tell you what law (U.S. Code) or >Regulation (Code of Federal Regulations) they're complying with? It's >not like the government can just impose something like this without any >official paperwork. I just went and looked at the listing of items for the most recent auction at KSC and it does say that "export control and/or DeMil may apply to SOME items". There's nothing new in that. The last auction that I went to had that but it was only applied to some military and aircraft parts. The question is weather some bureaucrat is over reacting and imposing it on everything or weather this dealer is over reacting. One thing to keep in mind however is that this guy is primarily a metal recycler and he buys stuff by the TON. He gets thousands if not tens of thousands of electronic cards/assemblies/units so tracking everyone really is an absolute impossiblity for him. And that's just the electonics items. If he has to track everything then multiply that times 50! > >It seems more likely that the one dealer has decided that he doesn't >want to hassle with the public any more, and is trying to shift the >blame to the government. I don't think so. This guy only lets in people that he knows and trust so he's not dealing with the average idiot off the street. (please, no comments asking how I got in! :-) His "customers" always pay in cash and don't ask for guarantees or reciepts and he enjoys having the extra spending money. BTW speaking of things that shouldn't have been let out by Uncle Sam, one of the more interesting things that I've found there was a Gatling Gun from an A-10!! He knew what it was and wouldn't sell it :-( He bought it along with a crashed A-10 for scrap metal. They told him that it was a hydraulic pump of some kind!!! Joe > >Eric > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 09:23:02 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:23:02 -0400 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <200504260212.09498.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426102302.014a5ea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Interesting! I used to see a lot of them in the scrap PC piles but I haven't seen any lately. I guess I should have picked them up. Anybody ever say what they'd be willing to pay for them? Joe At 02:12 AM 4/26/05 -0400, you wrote: >On April 25, 2005 9:50 pm, Joe R. wrote: >> What or who is requesting it? I don't understand why a person would want >> one. They would not only have to have the right brand, they'd also have to >> have THE right dongle! AFIK every dongle is unique. > > >These are a few of the messages from my inbox: > >"I am interested in the sentinal pro dongle. send info" > >"I noticed you have a Rainbow Sentinal Pro on the list of odds and ends, i was >wondering if maybe it was for sale. Please contact me back at as soon as >possible, and thank you for your time." > >"i noticed on your web page that you have a Rainbow sentinal pro >dongle.....Would you consider selling it to me" > >"I know which software it is for, but its not your normal run of the mill >software. If you decide on selling it please give me first refusal" > >One of the surplus dealers in town has a box of them. > > >-- > > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 26 09:45:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:45:28 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050426102010.0095e8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17006.21512.891298.289194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: Joe> BTW speaking of things that shouldn't have been let out by Uncle Joe> Sam, one of the more interesting things that I've found there Joe> was a Gatling Gun from an A-10!! He knew what it was and Joe> wouldn't sell it :-( Bummer. I'd like that one. Why shouldn't it be sold, if appropriately deactivated? I think the rule for stuff like that is that the barrel has to be cut, and/or the receiver disabled. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 09:28:29 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:28:29 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <17006.17504.945000.899169@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426102829.014c4100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:38 AM 4/26/05 -0400, Paul wrote: >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> A couple of days ago several people were discussing their > Joe> problems with a couple of DG Novas. I mentioned that I had just > Joe> seen one in a scrap yard and a couple of people asked me to > Joe> check on getting it for parts. I went back there today and the > Joe> Nova was still there and it looks complete. HOWEVER the owner > Joe> of the yard informed me that he is no longer selling ANY surplus > Joe> to anybody for any reason. I talked to him and found out that > Joe> the US Government is now requiring all surplus and scrap dealers > Joe> to keep DETAILED records of EVERY piece of equipment that they > Joe> sell! Furthermore they must ensure that NONE of it goes > Joe> overseas. > >It sounds like a severely scrambled interpretation of the export >control regulations that have existed in the USA for many years -- >long before 9/11. Yes, people often blame 9/11 for all sorts of >things, and not too long ago there was a long thread on this list >where export restrictions were wrongly blamed on 9/11. > >Detailed records of everything sold? Bizarre. > >Ensuring nothing gets overseas? Makes no sense. What DOES make sense >is "if it goes out of the country, look at the export regulations". >And for surplus equipment that can indeed be onerous, because it may >not be clear what specific rule applies to, say, a 20 year old Cray, >or even a 20 year old Nova. > Hmm. That makes me wonder. I know there were export restrictions on computers in the 60s that covered some of the HP desktop machines like the 9825. I wonder if those are still in effect. Do the restrictions every expire automaticly or do they have to be lifted? I'm told that HP used to get around the restrictions on computers by calling their machines "calculators". Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 26 09:53:02 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:53:02 -0700 Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >If indeed DSK2FILE requires the disk to be pre-formatted as you say then >that's probably what was causing the troubles Zane was having. Lame lame >lame. Some people shouldn't be allowed to write software. It does indeed appear that DSK2FILE requires the disk image to be preformated. Even more irritating I can't seem to get the //gs to read any of the disks I write with DSK2FILE :^( At this point I'm going to have to put the project on hold, as it has now gotten me seriously backlogged on stuff that I need to get done around here. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 09:51:48 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 10:51:48 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <17006.21512.891298.289194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050426102010.0095e8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426105148.014dcae0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:45 AM 4/26/05 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> BTW speaking of things that shouldn't have been let out by Uncle > Joe> Sam, one of the more interesting things that I've found there > Joe> was a Gatling Gun from an A-10!! He knew what it was and > Joe> wouldn't sell it :-( > >Bummer. I'd like that one. Why shouldn't it be sold, if >appropriately deactivated? I think the rule for stuff like that is >that the barrel has to be cut, and/or the receiver disabled. > > paul It WASN'T deactivated! The barrels were bent but intact. I'm not sure exactly what piece is considered the reciever but it looked like all or most of it was there and intact. Joe From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Apr 26 10:33:16 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:33:16 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050426102829.014c4100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <17006.24380.56083.692598@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: >> Ensuring nothing gets overseas? Makes no sense. What DOES make >> sense is "if it goes out of the country, look at the export >> regulations". And for surplus equipment that can indeed be >> onerous, because it may not be clear what specific rule applies >> to, say, a 20 year old Cray, or even a 20 year old Nova. >> Joe> Hmm. That makes me wonder. I know there were export restrictions Joe> on computers in the 60s that covered some of the HP desktop Joe> machines like the 9825. I wonder if those are still in Joe> effect. Do the restrictions every expire automaticly or do they Joe> have to be lifted? I'm told that HP used to get around the Joe> restrictions on computers by calling their machines Joe> "calculators". That trick sounds like a great way to go out of business in a hurry. Export control people have no tolerance of game playing ... Anyway (IANAXL) the likely answer is that you'd apply the current rules, and by the current rules those old machines have no significant restrictions. (Note that there "denied parties" that you can't export anything to, not even pencils...) paul From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 26 10:58:25 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 11:58:25 -0400 Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050426102302.014a5ea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050426102302.014a5ea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504261158.26982.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On April 26, 2005 10:23 am, Joe R. wrote: > Interesting! I used to see a lot of them in the scrap PC piles but I > haven't seen any lately. I guess I should have picked them up. Anybody ever > say what they'd be willing to pay for them? Not yet, but it's made me put it aside so it doesn't get misplaced. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 Machines to trade http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/trade.html Open Source Weekend http://www.osw.ca From news at computercollector.com Tue Apr 26 11:05:24 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:05:24 -0400 Subject: Book review: Ralph Baer's autobiography Message-ID: <200504261604.j3QG43u7065545@dewey.classiccmp.org> As published in yesterday's Computer Collector Newsletter; see the link underneath the "About us" section of my homepage. http://news.computercollector.com ----------------------------------------- Evan Koblentz's personal homepage: http://www.snarc.net *** Tell your friends about the (free!) Computer Collector Newsletter - 700 readers and no spam / Publishes every Monday / Write for us! - Mainframes to videogames, hardware and software, we cover it all - W: http://news.computercollector.com E: news at computercollector.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 26 11:11:56 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:11:56 -0400 Subject: Teltek FDC-1 Message-ID: <0IFK00MCQABMIA6I@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> So happens while moving some boards I found a Teltek FDC-1 S100 card. It's apparently an Z80cpu + FDC(765) + PIO + SIO with some rom and ram. I think it's a precursor to the S100 system on a board save for this is doesn't do the ram. Looking for schematic or manual. Mine may be missing a few chips. Allison From tomj at wps.com Tue Apr 26 11:38:40 2005 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What's so special about sentinal pro dongle In-Reply-To: <200504260212.09498.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425215050.00941730@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200504260212.09498.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20050426093315.D1279@localhost> On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Mike wrote: >> What or who is requesting it? I don't understand why a person would want >> one. They would not only have to have the right brand, they'd also have to >> have THE right dongle! AFIK every dongle is unique. Things often go like this: 100,000 people "know" software package Y requires the dongle. 99,900 of them know, or a good approximation thereof, that the software is serialized to the dongle. They don't call you. The remaining 100 only know one of those things was on the back of the computer when they used it, and want one. They write. Simple. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Apr 26 11:55:11 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 09:55:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images Message-ID: <200504261655.JAA08889@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Formatting of disk is a little bit of black magic to most programmers. There is little information on things like the exact gap sizes used for different formats. Also, formating usually requires knowledge of the hardware actually used while simply writing preformatted sectors can usually be handled through simple system calls. If formatting the disk with the system is trivial, I see no reason to go through the extra process of doing so in the code. While if the program is intended to bootstrap the system with disk of unknown condition, formatting is a must. I've done both ways for my home stuff. Of course, if it is to be released to others, one should include a readme or help printout that states the need of a preformatted disk. Dwight >From: "Gordon Tulloch" > >Indeed, one would expect that a disk image utility would write the whole formatted image on the disk and be done with it. > >I had all sorts of problems writing disk images on the target platform that I thought were communications related, which disappeared when I formatted the disks. Interestingly, CP/M images seem to write just fine on DOS formatted disks so go figure. > >Regards, > Gord > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Vintage Computer Festival >Date: Monday, April 25, 2005 8:11 pm >Subject: Re: Apple // Emulator Disk Images > >> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 gordt at gordtulloch.com wrote: >> >> > I would assume you need to format the floppies with the >> appropriate format >> > (DOS or ProDOS depending on what you're writing) - I need to do >> so on my >> > IIGS with DSK2FILE so I presume you'd need to do so on the Mac... >> >> This is a disk image tool so it doesn't matter what OS you use to >> formatthe disk, just as long as the disk is formatted. >> >> If indeed DSK2FILE requires the disk to be pre-formatted as you >> say then >> that's probably what was causing the troubles Zane was having. >> Lame lame >> lame. Some people shouldn't be allowed to write software. >> >> -- >> >> Sellam Ismail Vintage >> Computer Festival >> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ----------- >> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >> http://www.vintage.org >> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >> Computers ] >> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >> >> >> > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Apr 26 13:58:41 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:58:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Microfiche scanning In-Reply-To: <012c01c54a5c$e646bf50$8cd8828a@wolfie> References: <1114080587.17061.9.camel@weka.localdomain><10504211228.ZM7300@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><4267C485.6040307@oldskool.org> <4267CA14.20804@oldskool.org><10504211742.ZM7808@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><42682027.2030407@oldskool.org><10504212314.ZM8391@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><6.2.1.2.2.20050421182619.04eb2b90@mail> <10504220121.ZM8642@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><50693.207.145.53.202.1114130010.squirrel@207.145.53.202> <42692565.5070804@srv.net> <012c01c54a5c$e646bf50$8cd8828a@wolfie> Message-ID: <200504261900.PAA29810@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Comes with Abbyy FineReader OCR software which handles just about > everything I have given it - maybe fiche text as well? If it's anything like the VMS 'fiche I used back in the '80s, _any_ OCR software will need human help. Even a human occasionally needed high-level knowledge like "PUSHQ makes more sense here than PUSHO given the surrounding code" to make it out. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 26 14:22:00 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:22:00 -0500 Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <34090.64.169.63.74.1114422286.squirrel@64.169.63.74> References: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> <34090.64.169.63.74.1114422286.squirrel@64.169.63.74> Message-ID: <426E94D8.9030702@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > There was an amazing hack for the original II/II+ to generate > broadcast-quality NTSC video. I read this as an oxymoron -- since the color generated by the Apple II was due to composite artifacting, and "broadcast quality" video attempts to remove as much artifacting as possible... what did the graphics look like? What exactly did the board to do the color graphics output? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Apr 26 14:31:09 2005 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:31:09 +0200 Subject: my Data General ( MP/200, not 4/X) and 6095 Disk drive Message-ID: Tom Jenning's account of getting his Nova up again made me go back to my Nova MP/200, a 2901 bitslice based machine. With the machine came a DG6095 diskdrive, on which i did not find any info. It looks identical, inside and outside, to Tom's 6070 drive. Questions : - anybody know for sure that the 6095 is just the Euro version (220V/50HZ) of the US 6070 drive ? - Anybody has a spare pack ( fat chance, I know ) - and failing that would RL02 packs fit ( if so, how many sectors ) - and do I really need to dismantle heads and fixed platter to clean them ? ( I believe I know the answer to that...) Jos Dreesen. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 26 14:35:26 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:35:26 -0500 Subject: Power always on, or power on/off In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <426E97FE.7090905@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > up lubricants, keep the electrolytic caps polarized, exercise the > drive heads, make it feel wanted) LOL on the "feel wanted" part. I have to second the notion that "it depends on usage". It also depends on hardware -- for example, the older a hard drive is, the more it should be kept running if at all possible (cooling permitting, of course) to prevent the bearings from seizing up. I had an ST-225 that wouldn't spin up once and I really wanted the data off of it: I knew the drive heads were parked at the outside of the drive, so I took a chance and put it on a lazy susan with the platters' axis of rotation aligned with the lazy susan's axis. I slowly spun the entire unit on the lazy such that centrifugal force kept the drive heads at the outside where they were parked. When I had it up to a decent speed (ie as fast as my hand could turn it without the drive flying off), I quickly stopped it, and heard the bearings "unstick" and the platters move. Plugged it in, and it worked fine -- in fact, it ran for three entire days. I powered the machine off (after grabbing the data off of it of course), came back to it the next day, and it was dead for good. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Apr 26 14:41:22 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 14:41:22 -0500 Subject: Need good disk dump utility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <426E9962.2060207@oldskool.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Is there anything in Linux that will dump a disk image and put blank space > where bad sectors are? It's not certain if dd does this. I wrote disk2img that you can get from the www.oldskool.org/pc/flopper package; source included. When it encounters a sector it can't read, it fills it with "!" in the image file. Without specialized hardware, your best bet for imaging disks (for the purpose of recreating them in the future) is probably copyiipc used with "snatchit". Snatchit was a pirating tool in the mid 1980s that interfaced with copyiipc and dumped its memory buffers to disk, and could read them back to recreate the disks. The format is proprietary and the software only runs on pre-1990 x86 hardware, but if you want to image diskettes, even bad/wacky/protected formats, it's the easiest way to go. It's much more competent than anadisk, but the proprietary nature of the process is probably a huge turn-off. If you need both programs, let me know off-list and I can make them available. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 14:57:02 2005 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:57:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-11 in Genoa, IL auction May 3-5, 2005 In-Reply-To: <1a2.32618887.2f9f2298@aol.com> References: <1a2.32618887.2f9f2298@aol.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e905042612571c9fe4ef@mail.gmail.com> I know nothing about this auction house and this particular item but it could be a good find for someone within driving distance of Genoa, IL. Too bad I am not. Hope these links work: Item #: CW0481 Description "Digital TU 80 Tester With TU80 Tapes, Digital PDP11 Terminal, and Digital Dec Writer 3 Terminal" http://63.215.70.236/pages/auction/auction.asp?level1_id=0&level2_id=0&item=CW0481&level2_title= Item #: CW0481 Picture: http://63.215.70.236/ProductImages/Digital/481.jpg Auction details: http://www.xlineassets.com/ http://www.scarybear.com/xline/auction5_5.shtml From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 15:44:41 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:44:41 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 in Genoa, IL auction May 3-5, 2005 In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905042612571c9fe4ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a2.32618887.2f9f2298@aol.com> <1e1fc3e905042612571c9fe4ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/26/05, Glen Slick wrote: > Item #: CW0481 Description "Digital TU 80 Tester With TU80 Tapes, > Digital PDP11 Terminal, and Digital Dec Writer 3 Terminal" > > http://63.215.70.236/pages/auction/auction.asp?level1_id=0&level2_id=0&item=CW0481&level2_title= > > Item #: CW0481 Picture: > http://63.215.70.236/ProductImages/Digital/481.jpg Looks like an 11/44 plus 4? RA60s... not a bad system if you have room for it. It'll run RSTS, Unix, RT-11... -ethan From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Apr 26 14:46:46 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 12:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Crazy Monitor idea for old Home Computers In-Reply-To: <426E94D8.9030702@oldskool.org> References: <3.0.3.32.20050425142745.0095f100@pop-server> <34090.64.169.63.74.1114422286.squirrel@64.169.63.74> <426E94D8.9030702@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <41419.207.145.53.202.1114544806.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Eric Smith wrote: > There was an amazing hack for the original II/II+ to generate > broadcast-quality NTSC video. Jim wrote: > I read this as an oxymoron -- since the color generated by the Apple II > was due to composite artifacting, and "broadcast quality" video > attempts to remove as much artifacting as possible... You make it sound like there's some "magic" to artifacts, and that the computer "tricks" the monitor. That's not how it works. The reason people call color encoding on the Apple "artifacting" is because it was cleverly designed to take advantage of digital signals at the color burst frequency. That doesn't make the resulting waveform have any less "colorness" to it; the monitor is correctly interpreting it per the NTSC spec. For instance, people talk about how when you put a green pixel next to a purple pixel in an HGR mode, you get white as an "artifact". But that's because the NTSC signal that you get out for that pixel pair is essentially DC, so there is no color component. Naturally the monitor must interpret this as white. It's not the monitor being fooled, it's the naive programmer. The main part of the NTSC spec that the Apple II doens't meet is the relationship of color carrier timing to horizontal timing, which is supposed to be exactly 227.5:1, but on the Apple II was deliberately made 228:1 instead, so that the color carrier phase is the same on each line rather than alternating phase by 180 degress. The Apple has some other minor timing deviations, and the main oscillator usually isn't adjusted accurately to meet all the other specs (e.g., FCC spec on color carrier of +/- 10 Hz, wich is better than 3 PPM). But no other consumer gear normally meets that spec either. Anyhow, the color encoding on the Apple II works fine. That's not the problem. > what did the graphics look like? They looked exactly like they would on a normal Apple II. They just had correct timing. > What exactly did the board to do the color graphics output? It rendered it as NTSC-compliant output. Eric From rws at ripco.com Tue Apr 26 16:20:39 2005 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:20:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: PDP-11 in Genoa, IL auction May 3-5, 2005 In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e905042612571c9fe4ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <1a2.32618887.2f9f2298@aol.com> <1e1fc3e905042612571c9fe4ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I know nothing about this auction house and this particular item but > it could be a good find for someone within driving distance of Genoa, > IL. Too bad I am not. I am 10 miles away and am not interested in the items (I already have an 11/44, TU80, RA disks, Decwriter 3) but I'd be willing to help out with loading. Can't store it though. (Why can't the stuff that's 10 miles away be stuff I don't already have?) Richard Schauer From chenmel at earthlink.net Tue Apr 26 17:58:18 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:58:18 -0500 Subject: IBM 360 (was Re: Cray picked up today) In-Reply-To: <57443.207.145.53.202.1114469277.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <26c11a6405042511332ca58fbf@mail.gmail.com> <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> <57443.207.145.53.202.1114469277.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <20050426175818.485b48df.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 15:47:57 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > Lawrence wrote: > > The IBM 360 range ( > > http://www.windoweb.it/edpstory_new/eh1960_f31.jpg ) was made of > > modules no wider than a standard door ... should have gone for one > > of those :-) > > If you (or anyone) know of any 360 or 370 machines that are available, > please let me know, as I'd like to try to get another 360 or 370 for > the Computer History Museum (www.computerhistory.org). > > It should be noted that I'm not officially acting on their behalf; > I only do volunteer work (e.g., PDP-1 Restoration Project), and they > haven't asked me to find more machines for them. I just think they > should have them. :-) > > Currently CHM has an IBM 360/30. The internal condition is apparently > not very good, though I haven't looked inside it myself. But I really > hope that we can restore some model of 360 (or 370) in the future. > Having an operational 360 system that people could submit jobs to > via punched cards (or maybe RJE over the internet) would really rock! > > The CHM setup includes some 2311 disk drives and 24xx tape drives, but > apparently not control units for them. And I'm willing to donate a > 2540 Card Read Punch to CHM to use with it, but I don't have the 2821 > control unit that was used for that and the 1403 printer. :-( > > Eric All I have is an official IBM 360 Ashtray that I got from my father. I mentioned it to him recently, he says that it's probably pretty rare because it was an executive-only promotional perk. It's probably been a few years since IBM produced a matching ash tray to go with one of their mainframe systems. I have a wooden THINK desk sign, too. No IBM mainframe collector should be without one of those. -Scott From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 18:02:27 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:02:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > Any thoughts on this? Yeah: Fuck the DHS. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 18:04:30 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 16:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.0.20050425210418.02311270@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Tom Uban wrote: > It's a complete shame. There is a significant industry that is based on > the resale of surplus equipment. To just destroy it needlessly pollutes, > throws away jobs, and does not support the economy. To what end does the > destruction of antique equipment, which has already been stripped of any > information that might further nefarious individuals or wayward countries, > going to prevent another 9/11 incedent? It's not, but it might make manufacturers more profitable. This is the same scam that companies in California pulled when the draft e-waste law would have required them to make computers easy to disassemble and upgrade. The corporate interests killed that provision because it meant they would have to be competing against their own older products on the surplus market. At least that was their rationale. Once again, corporate interests prevail. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From allain at panix.com Tue Apr 26 18:18:03 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:18:03 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <426DAD7B.7080304@theriver.com> Message-ID: <007e01c54ab6$33038860$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Basically I agree with the spirit if not every last word-for-word of the responders. But just a reminder that supercomputers at one time couldn't be exported to certain countries presumably because they could be used to perform nuclear simulations. Sub-point#2: Desktops are nearing that same compute power that those supercomputers had then. John A. the PDP11's should be safe though. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 18:24:47 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:24:47 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426192447.0164e530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:02 PM 4/26/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >> Any thoughts on this? > >Yeah: Fuck the DHS. Most likely they'll do you! Joe From ICS at Core.com Tue Apr 26 18:54:55 2005 From: ICS at Core.com (George Wiegand) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:54:55 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00e301c54abb$58ef3a60$6784efd1@icsdevelopment> If and when you are able to buy anything from the scrap dealer, it would be "proper" to take the whole Nova chassis with boards, not just the boards. :) Thanks, George Wiegand Vintage Data General Computer Hobbyist From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue Apr 26 19:05:34 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:05:34 EDT Subject: Apollos and tape drives Message-ID: <1f6.88fd7cf.2fa0314e@aol.com> Building on Jules earlier post- I have been wrestling with my 425, and it seems that Apollos in general are pretty picky about their tape drives. Mine crashes in the load phase, both with distro media and with a custom boot tape from the working disk. I'm not sure what they like, but it doesn't seem to be Archive QIC-150 drives (one from a Sun, one from a SGI). I've got everything installed, but it was a long process requiring two disks . . . -Scott Quinn From Saquinn624 at aol.com Tue Apr 26 19:10:25 2005 From: Saquinn624 at aol.com (Saquinn624 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:10:25 EDT Subject: Asimov Message-ID: <11.441cf289.2fa03271@aol.com> I know that at least 3 people asked for CDs. I only have 2 addresses, though. Could people please re-send so I can get them out? -Scott Quinn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 18:55:54 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:55:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 25, 5 09:47:59 pm Message-ID: [...] > of it goes overseas. Supposedly this is coming from the Department of > Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed that > every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) This is a When the terrible events of 9/11 occured, one of my first comments was 'I fear the reaction of the governments more than I fear the terrorists'. Govenments have a habit of over-reacting, particularly if it means they can impose more restrictions on the public... Over here, you can be arrested for 'possessing information of use to a terrorist'. Let's looks along my bookshelves... The 555 timer data sheet Data sheets on various other timing chips Electronic magazines with timing circuits in them Various books on mechanical and electronic clocks (clocks have long since been an interst of mine) Books on chemistry Books on nuclear and particle physics (not suprising as I did a Ph.D. i the latter) Books on metalworking A London street map A London underground railway map Care to explain why those are not of use to terrorists. For that matter a cookery book is of use to a terrorist (presumably they have to eat sometime...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Apr 26 18:49:28 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:49:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <0IFJ007BN44KVWXD@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 25, 5 09:00:22 pm Message-ID: > I also have a Phillips/Mullard and Eimac manuals. I should have used > numbers more common there. I see both here so it's no big deal. For Don't worry about it. I have a small equivalents book to hand, I have several valve databooks, and the manual for my valve tester (an AVO Mk 4 characteristic meter...). The US numbers are no problem for me. But the Philips numbers do give rahter more information without having to look them up. > > >Sure. My warning, again, was based on the fact that you're likely to get > >inside the set (but as I said, I am sure you realised the dangers anyhow). > > The dangers are less here with 117V nominal mains. However I've been Sure.... I'd still not want to be connected across it, though. > at this racket for over 35 years. It's usually me telling others to > be careful and lockout/tagout. Please don't think I was questioning your knowledge and experience. If you feel I was, then I apologise now. You have considerably more knowledge and experienmce than me. You doubtless realised from that valve line-up that it was likely to be a live chassis. And you have the advantage of being able to see the set and notice there is no mains transformer [1]. However, there are plenty of other people reading this list, who might come across similar sets. I would hope they might now realise that the chassis could be live. [1] The presence of a mains transformer in a valve radio does not imply an isolated chassis!. It was not unhead-of for the transformer to be to supply the heaters only, with the HT coming by half-wave rectifying the mains, thus giving a live chassis. Some UK sets even had the heaters in series, runn from the mains via an autotransformer... -tony From cctech at randy482.com Tue Apr 26 19:35:10 2005 From: cctech at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:35:10 -0500 Subject: End of Surplus? References: Message-ID: <001501c54ac0$fb834eb0$103cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Tony Duell" Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:55 PM > >> of it goes overseas. Supposedly this is coming from the Department of >> Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed >> that >> every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) This is a > > When the terrible events of 9/11 occured, one of my first comments was 'I > fear the reaction of the governments more than I fear the terrorists'. > Govenments have a habit of over-reacting, particularly if it means they > can impose more restrictions on the public... > > Over here, you can be arrested for 'possessing information of use to a > terrorist'. Let's looks along my bookshelves... > > The 555 timer data sheet > Data sheets on various other timing chips > Electronic magazines with timing circuits in them > Various books on mechanical and electronic clocks (clocks have long since > been an interst of mine) > Books on chemistry > Books on nuclear and particle physics (not suprising as I did a Ph.D. i > the latter) > Books on metalworking > A London street map > A London underground railway map > > Care to explain why those are not of use to terrorists. For that matter a > cookery book is of use to a terrorist (presumably they have to eat > sometime...) > > -tony A friend of mine was a weapons office on a USN sub, one day we were talking about terrorists making a bomb. He started by saying the technology is above their heads. My response was get a bucket and put enough fissionable material in it and boom. He said it wouldn't be efficient and you wouldn't no when it would blow, I said who cares if you have a nuclear explosion in a major city that's terrorism. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 19:39:32 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: <1af9f9f1af9f74.1af9f741af9f9f@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Gordon Tulloch wrote: > Indeed, one would expect that a disk image utility would write the whole > formatted image on the disk and be done with it. It depends on how the image is being written. If it's being written from a disk image that contains "raw" disk bytes then you could simply write the image to disk and that's that. However, if the image is comprised of tracks and sectors, the disk must be formatted in order for the image to be written, just as you would need the disk to be formatted to store and retrieve files. In this specific case, the software should've either told you it needed the disk you were writing to be pre-formatted (I would assume it mentions it in the docs) or it should give you the option to format the disk before writing. In the very least, it should've made it obvious to Zane that it was having trouble writing the disk. Apparently it didn't, and that's just crap programming. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 19:47:42 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <17006.21512.891298.289194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > Joe> BTW speaking of things that shouldn't have been let out by Uncle > Joe> Sam, one of the more interesting things that I've found there > Joe> was a Gatling Gun from an A-10!! He knew what it was and > Joe> wouldn't sell it :-( > > Bummer. I'd like that one. Why shouldn't it be sold, if > appropriately deactivated? I think the rule for stuff like that is > that the barrel has to be cut, and/or the receiver disabled. There are guys who collect this stuff so it does get sold. One of the largest collections is with a private collector in the hills of the Silicon Valley. I saw a (much) older generation tank on a trailer on the freeway heading in that general direction last week ;) The guy is amazing. He has a SCUD launcher, among other pretty amazing machines. All de-weaponized. http://www.milvehtechfound.com/index.html -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 19:49:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >If indeed DSK2FILE requires the disk to be pre-formatted as you say then > >that's probably what was causing the troubles Zane was having. Lame lame > >lame. Some people shouldn't be allowed to write software. > > It does indeed appear that DSK2FILE requires the disk image to be > preformated. Even more irritating I can't seem to get the //gs to > read any of the disks I write with DSK2FILE :^( Under what OS? Are you getting hard errors (disk recalibration) or soft errors? > At this point I'm going to have to put the project on hold, as it has > now gotten me seriously backlogged on stuff that I need to get done > around here. Don't you hate that? Stuff that should be simple gets dragged out into an unproductive timesink needlessly. Ditch DSK2FILE and use ADT instead. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 19:53:54 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:53:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: <200504261655.JAA08889@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > If formatting the disk with the system is trivial, I see > no reason to go through the extra process of doing so in > the code. While if the program is intended to bootstrap the > system with disk of unknown condition, formatting is a must. > I've done both ways for my home stuff. It should at least tell you that you need to insert a formatted disk. Bad UI! Bad! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 26 19:59:27 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 17:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Apr 26, 2005 05:39:32 PM Message-ID: <200504270059.j3R0xRZU016053@onyx.spiritone.com> > In this specific case, the software should've either told you it needed > the disk you were writing to be pre-formatted (I would assume it mentions > it in the docs) or it should give you the option to format the disk before > writing. In the very least, it should've made it obvious to Zane that it > was having trouble writing the disk. Apparently it didn't, and that's > just crap programming. In all fairness to the author, it might say something about this in the documentation. However, the software is so easy to use that I never looked at it. At the same time, give the nature of the program, and the fact it should take an almost exact amount of time to write a disk image, giving that amount of time would have been a good hint. OTOH, the fact that even knowing I need to format the disk first I can't get a working floppy created is enough to drive me crazy. I should have been smart and tried a different program to write the disk images... Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 26 20:04:34 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:04:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Apr 26, 2005 05:49:16 PM Message-ID: <200504270104.j3R14YmP016292@onyx.spiritone.com> > > It does indeed appear that DSK2FILE requires the disk image to be > > preformated. Even more irritating I can't seem to get the //gs to > > read any of the disks I write with DSK2FILE :^( > > Under what OS? Are you getting hard errors (disk recalibration) or soft > errors? I was running DSK2FILE under System 6. I've tried writting a DOS 3.3 disk, as well as those two Wizardry/Tekumel disks I posted the link to. I've gotten zero errors, though when I try to boot the disks, it comlains it can't. > > At this point I'm going to have to put the project on hold, as it has > > now gotten me seriously backlogged on stuff that I need to get done > > around here. > > Don't you hate that? Stuff that should be simple gets dragged out into an > unproductive timesink needlessly. Ditch DSK2FILE and use ADT instead. Yes, I do hate it. Will ADT run under System 6? I'd thought you had to run a server on the Apple, and use a client on the PC to connect to it via serial line and send the data over the serial line. It's been years since I used it, so I might be totally off on how it works. One thing I should probably also take a look at is "Asimov 2.0". Zane From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 20:07:06 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050426192447.0164e530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > At 04:02 PM 4/26/05 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > > > >> Any thoughts on this? > > > >Yeah: Fuck the DHS. > > Most likely they'll do you! Bring 'em on! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Apr 26 20:13:00 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: <200504270104.j3R14YmP016292@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > It does indeed appear that DSK2FILE requires the disk image to be > > > preformated. Even more irritating I can't seem to get the //gs to > > > read any of the disks I write with DSK2FILE :^( > > > > Under what OS? Are you getting hard errors (disk recalibration) or soft > > errors? > > I was running DSK2FILE under System 6. I've tried writting a DOS 3.3 disk, > as well as those two Wizardry/Tekumel disks I posted the link to. Oh yeah, I forgot you were trying to create the images on the Mac. If you can get the complete disk image onto your //gs without trouble then let me know and I'll send you a quick & dirty program to write the image to disk on the //gs (but you'll need to make sure the disk is preformatted ;) > I've gotten zero errors, though when I try to boot the disks, it comlains it > can't. Sounds like it's not being written properly? Can you look at the disk with a sector editor and see if there is at least any data on track 0, sector 0 (the boot sector)? > > Don't you hate that? Stuff that should be simple gets dragged out into an > > unproductive timesink needlessly. Ditch DSK2FILE and use ADT instead. > > Yes, I do hate it. Will ADT run under System 6? I'd thought you had to run > a server on the Apple, and use a client on the PC to connect to it via > serial line and send the data over the serial line. It's been years since I > used it, so I might be totally off on how it works. One thing I should > probably also take a look at is "Asimov 2.0". Yes, sorry, I forgot you were running on a Mac. Still, if you have a PC handy and can get a null modem cable, ADT works pretty well. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Apr 26 20:20:31 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:20:31 -0400 Subject: More TCF proto boards... Message-ID: Interested in identification, will entertain offers if you can use. http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/protobds/ Descriptions: ---------------------------------------------------------- This is an unused socket pin wire wrap board that I think (based on the "B" logo) is a Burroughs. Each of the card edge connectors is 3 inches across. The top edge is rough (hack saw man again) but the board looks pretty complete anyway. P1010001.JPG - Pin side, pins W57, W58 and three pins on row Z1 are broken off (4th, 5th and 6th from the right) P1010003.JPG - Socket side, note the B logo upper left P1010009.JPG - Close up of the B logo ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- This is an unused, unidentified proto board. Each of the card edge connectors is 4 inches across. P1010011.JPG - (Front?) P1010012.JPG - (Back?) ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- I got a bunch of each of these. There are 5 different "styles" of boards in this picture. They are only clad on one side and there are no markings of any kind on the "back" sides. The more narrow boards on the right side of the picture have holes drilled through on the row of pads at the end. The narrow board with the IC pads at the center has holes drilled through on those pads as well. The bigger board on the left only has holes drilled through on the small round pads at its right side. All of the ovals on this board have holes through the foil only. It's hard to see in the picture, but all of the boards are on relatively modern looking green board with the exception of the lower right board. That one is on a dark red/brown board I'm used to seeing in old radios. Someone also hand drilled a couple of holes on the pads at the right end of this board. The narrow boards are 2 1/8 inches wide, the short ones are 4 inches long, the long ones are 6 inches. The big board on the left is 4 x 5 1/4 inches. P1010014.JPG - Foil sides ---------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------- This board (I got three) is solid clad on both sides (Obviously intended to be etched). It is 10 inches long by 4 1/2 inches wide. The "narrowed" end (intended for card edge?) is 4 1/4 inches wide. There are four rows of holes drilled through at that end in a staggered pattern. The short rows have 20 holes, the long rows have 21. P1010015.JPG ---------------------------------------------------------- Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 19:57:30 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 20:57:30 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: References: <17006.21512.891298.289194@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426205730.0163d100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:47 PM 4/26/05 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: >> >> Joe> BTW speaking of things that shouldn't have been let out by Uncle >> Joe> Sam, one of the more interesting things that I've found there >> Joe> was a Gatling Gun from an A-10!! He knew what it was and >> Joe> wouldn't sell it :-( >> >> Bummer. I'd like that one. Why shouldn't it be sold, if >> appropriately deactivated? I think the rule for stuff like that is >> that the barrel has to be cut, and/or the receiver disabled. > >There are guys who collect this stuff so it does get sold. This one won't! He's already had some serious offers but he's serious about not selling it. One of the >largest collections is with a private collector in the hills of the >Silicon Valley. I saw a (much) older generation tank on a trailer on the >freeway heading in that general direction last week ;) The guy is >amazing. He has a SCUD launcher, among other pretty amazing machines. >All de-weaponized. > >http://www.milvehtechfound.com/index.html There was a program about people that collect tanks on TV (Discovery Channel? Amazing mchines?) a few nights ago. They interviewed that guy along several others. It was VERY interesting!! Joe > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 20:08:13 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:08:13 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <001501c54ac0$fb834eb0$103cd7d1@randylaptop> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:35 PM 4/26/05 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Tony Duell" >Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:55 PM >> >>> of it goes overseas. Supposedly this is coming from the Department of >>> Homeland Security and has something to do with 9/11. (Have you noticed >>> that >>> every new, rediculous requirement is in response to 9/11?) This is a >> >> When the terrible events of 9/11 occured, one of my first comments was 'I >> fear the reaction of the governments more than I fear the terrorists'. >> Govenments have a habit of over-reacting, particularly if it means they >> can impose more restrictions on the public... >> >> Over here, you can be arrested for 'possessing information of use to a >> terrorist'. Let's looks along my bookshelves... >> >> The 555 timer data sheet >> Data sheets on various other timing chips >> Electronic magazines with timing circuits in them >> Various books on mechanical and electronic clocks (clocks have long since >> been an interst of mine) >> Books on chemistry >> Books on nuclear and particle physics (not suprising as I did a Ph.D. i >> the latter) >> Books on metalworking >> A London street map >> A London underground railway map >> >> Care to explain why those are not of use to terrorists. For that matter a >> cookery book is of use to a terrorist (presumably they have to eat >> sometime...) >> >> -tony > > >A friend of mine was a weapons office on a USN sub, one day we were talking >about terrorists making a bomb. He started by saying the technology is >above their heads. My response was get a bucket and put enough fissionable >material in it and boom. Sorry but that won't work. After the first couple of generations of the chain reaction it simply blows itself apart and the chain reaction dies. That's why A bombs have POWERFUL chemical explosives to FORCE the nuclear material together. Getting the bomb to stay together long enough to work (ie, use up most of the available nuclear material) was probably THE biggest problem in the building of the A bomb. Ultimately two approaches were used, one was to fire to hemispheres of nuclear materail together by means of a modified 16 inch navel gun (Tall-boy) and the other was to implode a hollow sphere of material by explosives that completely surrounded it (Fat-man). Go read 'Building of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard Rhodes. It has a lot of detail on the subject. That book and "Building of the Nuclear Bomb" are both very interesting reading. Joe > >He said it wouldn't be efficient and you wouldn't no when it would blow, I >said who cares if you have a nuclear explosion in a major city that's >terrorism. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Apr 26 20:28:33 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:28:33 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <00e301c54abb$58ef3a60$6784efd1@icsdevelopment> References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050426212833.0163f5c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> That's already been "suggested" by several people :-) OTOH separating it and spreading the parts out might allow SEVERAL Novas to be made operational again instead of just adding one more (non-working?) to the number of Novas out there. AND before anybody spouts off that the owners of the broken Novas should fix their problems at the component level and not use parts from another one, I'll point out that several of them have INCOMPLETE Novas and need the boards, PSU, cables etc to even attempt to fix their machines. >IF< I can get the machine I'd prefer to get the complete machine and send it to someone that needs it and let them fix it or part it out as they see fit and then pass any extra parts on to another restorer and they can pass the remains to another, etc etc. I don't know dick about Novas and I'd let someone that's more knowledgeable about them than I am make that decision. OR If anyone SERIOUSLY wants it, I'll give you the address and phone number of the guy that's got it and you can try to talk him out of it. But see my >>original<< "End of Surplus" posting first. I was only trying to help out a couple of list members and I don't want the thing and it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit if someone else grabbed it. FWIW It's located in Sanford Florida and I SERIOUSLY doubt that the owner is willing to pack and ship it so you probably need to pick it up in person. You'd almost certainly have to deal with the owner in person anyway to have any chance of success. Joe At 07:54 PM 4/26/05 -0400, you wrote: >If and when you are able to buy anything from the scrap dealer, it would be >"proper" to take the whole Nova chassis with boards, not just the boards. :) > >Thanks, >George Wiegand >Vintage Data General Computer Hobbyist > > From aek at spies.com Tue Apr 26 20:52:41 2005 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 18:52:41 -0700 Subject: More TCF proto boards... Message-ID: <426EF069.5070606@spies.com> Donzelli may be interested in these. They look similar to the boards in B18xx series machines. The date codes would be about right too (mid 80's) From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 21:12:29 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:12:29 -0400 Subject: PDP-11 in Genoa, IL auction May 3-5, 2005 In-Reply-To: References: <1a2.32618887.2f9f2298@aol.com> <1e1fc3e905042612571c9fe4ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There are two DEC writer II near cleveland... $10 each vax, 9000 On 4/26/05, Richard Schauer wrote: > > I know nothing about this auction house and this particular item but > > it could be a good find for someone within driving distance of Genoa, > > IL. Too bad I am not. > > I am 10 miles away and am not interested in the items (I already have an > 11/44, TU80, RA disks, Decwriter 3) but I'd be willing to help out with > loading. Can't store it though. > > (Why can't the stuff that's 10 miles away be stuff I don't already have?) > > Richard Schauer > > From vax9000 at gmail.com Tue Apr 26 21:15:13 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:15:13 -0400 Subject: who needs a TS05? (not free) Message-ID: In cleveland somebody is selling a TS05 for $100. But $50 will work (I know that). If somebody is interested, I can help to load/ship. vax, 9000 From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 21:18:10 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:18:10 -0400 Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? Message-ID: <426EF662.2050303@comcast.net> Hello, Anyone from the Pittsburgh area that's also into vintage computer collecting ? I started a newsgroup on Yahoo for Pittsburgh (since there wasn't one yet) where we could swap info. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ Hope to see you there, Dan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ My Corner of Cyberspace Pittsburgh Robotics Society ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [ Got Robot ? ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 21:18:52 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:18:52 -0400 Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? Message-ID: <426EF68C.40802@comcast.net> Hello, Anyone from the Pittsburgh area that's also into vintage computer collecting ? I started a newsgroup on Yahoo for Pittsburgh (since there wasn't one yet) where we could swap info. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ Hope to see you there, Dan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ My Corner of Cyberspace Pittsburgh Robotics Society ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [ Got Robot ? ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Apr 26 21:19:27 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:19:27 -0400 Subject: small valves and RE: OT Message-ID: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: small valves and RE: OT > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 00:49:28 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >However, there are plenty of other people reading this list, who might >come across similar sets. I would hope they might now realise that the >chassis could be live. Ah, threin lies the reason. However good point. People here play with power in the form of higher voltages, also in the form of high energy. Some of those computer supplies designed to pump out dozens to sometimes hundres of amps of power posess the capability to melt off a ring (and the encircled finger), watch or cause a splatter of melted metal in the eye. Trust me, I have been been to 1500volts and back due to fools around me and their pointing fingers. I've also seen what an 80amp regulated power supply can do to a 1/4" shank screw driver. That little ditty vaporized in a nice UV rich arc. Had me seeing spots for a week(welders burn). Oh and the guy fixing it was quick state he had unplugged it. So yes, a reminder for those listening is far from out of order. >[1] The presence of a mains transformer in a valve radio does not imply an >isolated chassis!. It was not unhead-of for the transformer to be to >supply the heaters only, with the HT coming by half-wave rectifying the >mains, thus giving a live chassis. Some UK sets even had the heaters in >series, runn from the mains via an autotransformer... Yep, that too! I might add that something "grounded" can be more unsafe until your sure there is NO POTENTIAL differences. I got dinged in NYC one fine day due to a mere 65vac differential in grounds between the 12th and 14th floor. And they couldn't understand why the RS232 drivers were being fried all over the place. Seems equipment ground wasn't. Electrons are our friends, they have a dark side too. Always play nice and use proper technique. Failure to do so really can take the fun out of it. Allison From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 21:19:18 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:19:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? Message-ID: <426EF6A6.2080304@comcast.net> Hello, Anyone from the Pittsburgh area that's also into vintage computer collecting ? I started a newsgroup on Yahoo for Pittsburgh (since there wasn't one yet) where we could swap info. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ Hope to see you there, Dan -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ My Corner of Cyberspace Pittsburgh Robotics Society ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [ Got Robot ? ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Apr 26 21:56:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 21:56:04 -0500 Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? References: <426EF6A6.2080304@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001801c54ad4$a727e920$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Did ya have to post your ad for your newsgroup (without asking) three times to the same list (classiccmp, cctalk, cctech - are all the same list, not separate ones)?? Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:19 PM Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? > Hello, > > Anyone from the Pittsburgh area that's also into vintage computer > collecting ? > I started a newsgroup on Yahoo for Pittsburgh (since there wasn't one yet) > where we could swap info. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ > > Hope to see you there, > Dan > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > [ My Corner of Cyberspace Pittsburgh Robotics Society ] > [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] > [ Got Robot ? ] > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Apr 26 21:58:44 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 19:58:44 -0700 Subject: Apple // Emulator Disk Images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Oh yeah, I forgot you were trying to create the images on the Mac. If you >can get the complete disk image onto your //gs without trouble then let me >know and I'll send you a quick & dirty program to write the image to disk >on the //gs (but you'll need to make sure the disk is preformatted ;) That's the part that's easy and works flawlessly (though a bit time consuming). I write the images to a 1.44MB Mac formated floppy using a USB floppy drive connected to my G5, copy the data to the HD of my PowerBook 540c (this is easier than setting up to go via ethernet). With the PowerBook I copy it to a 800MB ProDOS floppy (it's old enough, and running System 7.5.3, so this is a built in capability). At that point I read the 3.5" floppy on my //gs and copy to its HD. >Sounds like it's not being written properly? Can you look at the disk >with a sector editor and see if there is at least any data on track 0, >sector 0 (the boot sector)? I got "Copy II plus" V9.1 on the Apple, so I can format the floppies, and I can see where DSK2FILE has written stuff out there. > > Yes, I do hate it. Will ADT run under System 6? I'd thought you >had to run > > a server on the Apple, and use a client on the PC to connect to it via > > serial line and send the data over the serial line. It's been >years since I > > used it, so I might be totally off on how it works. One thing I should > > probably also take a look at is "Asimov 2.0". > >Yes, sorry, I forgot you were running on a Mac. Still, if you have a PC >handy and can get a null modem cable, ADT works pretty well. ADT is available for the Mac, and I used it years ago on my SE/30. Having said that, putting my hands on the necessary cable for a Mac would be even more difficult than for a PC. I might just get everything back out (I put it all away this morning) later on tonight and try some more. I really am kind of fixated on this at the moment. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Apr 26 22:40:28 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:40:28 -0400 Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? In-Reply-To: <001801c54ad4$a727e920$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <426EF6A6.2080304@comcast.net> <001801c54ad4$a727e920$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <426F09AC.409@comcast.net> sorry, didn't know that Looked like 3 newsgroups since it has 3 diff email address'. I was just hoping to meetup with vintage collectors from Pittsburgh that might visit this newsgroup. -Dan Jay West wrote: > Did ya have to post your ad for your newsgroup (without asking) three > times to the same list (classiccmp, cctalk, cctech - are all the same > list, not separate ones)?? > > Jay > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:19 PM > Subject: Anyone from the Pittsburgh area ??? > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 From cctalk at randy482.com Tue Apr 26 22:50:50 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:50:50 -0500 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004601c54adc$51c6f0e0$363dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Joe R." Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 8:08 PM >> >>A friend of mine was a weapons office on a USN sub, one day we were >>talking >>about terrorists making a bomb. He started by saying the technology is >>above their heads. My response was get a bucket and put enough >>fissionable >>material in it and boom. > > Sorry but that won't work. After the first couple of generations of the > chain reaction it simply blows itself apart and the chain reaction dies. > That's why A bombs have POWERFUL chemical explosives to FORCE the nuclear > material together. Getting the bomb to stay together long enough to work > (ie, use up most of the available nuclear material) was probably THE > biggest problem in the building of the A bomb. Ultimately two approaches > were used, one was to fire to hemispheres of nuclear materail together by > means of a modified 16 inch navel gun (Tall-boy) and the other was to > implode a hollow sphere of material by explosives that completely > surrounded it (Fat-man). Go read 'Building of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard > Rhodes. It has a lot of detail on the subject. That book and "Building of > the Nuclear Bomb" are both very interesting reading. > > Joe > > >> >>He said it wouldn't be efficient and you wouldn't no when it would blow, I >>said who cares if you have a nuclear explosion in a major city that's >>terrorism. >> >> >>Randy >>www.s100-manuals.com Actually the reasons to use different methods are simple: Number one and most important for the Manhattan project the amount of fissionable material available was extremely limited. In fact they only had enough for three bombs. Number two as you stated is efficiency, without either compressing the material or using a huge amount of fissionable material you won't get the "violent reaction" desired. My point was at the time (before ever hearing the term dirty bomb) is that terrorism is not knocking down every building in a city but just doing anything nuclear. While I said bucket I was not referring to a plastic bucket for building sand castles but merely any reasonable container to hold enough material. If you put enough fissionable material together (more than "critical mass") the reaction will cascade to the point of exploding. By controlling the explosion you can wipe out a city with the concussion, without the control you will spread enough radioactive material to make large sections of the city uninhabitable. If anyone was to find all of the "missing" fissionable material and place it in one hole in the ground how big of a new hole do you think it would create :^< My knoweldge is extremely limited, today if someone wants to look it up I am sure details on making an H bomb could probably be found. But as I said with no knowledge other than knowing the simplest point is that once you have critical mass in one place it is a good idea to be anyplace else ;-o Randy www.s100-manuals.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Apr 27 00:30:59 2005 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 22:30:59 -0700 Subject: Apple // - Finally Success!! Message-ID: At this point I'm *seriously* disgusted with DSK2FILE. I transferred "Asimov 2.0" over to my //gs, and I'm able to successfully create the floppies! On a related note, will Wizardry I run on a Apple //gs? Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 27 01:02:15 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2005 23:02:15 -0700 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing Message-ID: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> I am trying to decide what to do with a bunch of 16-bit ISA IDE/Floppy controller, etc. cards. Is there still a use for them, or should I just add (most of) them to the (rapidly growing) scrap reclaim box? What about 8-bit and/or 16-bit ethernet cards, no-name 8-bit serial/parallel cards, older style floppy disk cables that still support the 5 1/4" floppy drives? Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth saving? I am keeping all the disk controller cards, memory expansion cards, and any specialized cards. Are they any Apple IIx cards worth saving? My general rule there has been that if I have the docs, they are worth saving. I have boxes of this stuff spread around and am looking for some guidelines on what might be worth keeping! I am getting to the point that anything past about 1984 or so goes. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Apr 27 01:31:22 2005 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:31:22 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <003e01c54af2$bb07d180$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:08 PM Subject: Re: End of Surplus? > > Sorry but that won't work. After the first couple of generations of the > chain reaction it simply blows itself apart and the chain reaction dies. > That's why A bombs have POWERFUL chemical explosives to FORCE the nuclear > material together. Getting the bomb to stay together long enough to work > (ie, use up most of the available nuclear material) was probably THE > biggest problem in the building of the A bomb. Ultimately two approaches > were used, one was to fire to hemispheres of nuclear materail together by > means of a modified 16 inch navel gun (Tall-boy) and the other was to > implode a hollow sphere of material by explosives that completely > surrounded it (Fat-man). Go read 'Building of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard > Rhodes. It has a lot of detail on the subject. That book and "Building of > the Nuclear Bomb" are both very interesting reading. > > Joe > > The major problem with the Fatman method was having the explosives surrounding the uranium explode at the exact same time with 1940's era electrical technology. Getting a uniform explosion to compress a ball off enriched uranium so that a large chain reaction takes place is probably still a pain to do for most countries wanting to build a bomb. A fraction of a second off and you have a fizzle. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 27 01:50:23 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 01:50:23 -0500 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504270150.23877.pat@computer-refuge.org> William Donzelli declared on Monday 25 April 2005 09:08 pm: > > Any thoughts on this? > > As you know, but others may not, if you get in good with a scrap guy, > he will sell you just about anything, provided you don't cross him. I "haven't" acquired a 50W CO2 laser (working) and several small labratory x-ray setups that can attest to that fact. If your scrap dealer is telling you this stuff, you aren't nearly good enough friends with him. :) I've got a really good repore going with the guys at my primary scrap/surplus place, which helps immensely in getting interesting stuff, for cheap. When I was going through a huge load of early-80s era equipment they managed to get a month or so ago, the guy said to me "I'm glad you're getting this stuff, before the pilferers got to it." Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 27 01:52:47 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:52:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> References: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: <200504270655.CAA13959@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I am trying to decide what to do with a bunch of 16-bit ISA > IDE/Floppy controller, etc. cards. [...] I am keeping all the disk > controller cards, memory expansion cards, and any specialized cards. That's probably about what I'd do. I have a machine or two that I wouldn't mind being able to throw more IDE into, though it's hardly a need - unless you're near enough that postage is cheap, or unless you're contemplating throwing them out, I wouldn't ask for them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Apr 27 02:00:11 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 02:00:11 -0500 Subject: WTB/T: Unibus memory Message-ID: <200504270200.11082.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm looking for some UNIBUS memory to go with an 11/04 CPU I purchased recently. ATM, I don't care much about the size; enought to be able to run RT-11 would be wonderful. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Apr 27 05:12:28 2005 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:12:28 +0100 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050427101226.GA8030@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Wed, Apr 27, 2005 at 12:55:54AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > When the terrible events of 9/11 occured, one of my first comments was 'I > fear the reaction of the governments more than I fear the terrorists'. Which is why today is the 1335th of September 2001. I think I preferred the previous never-ending September. -- David Cantrell | top google result for "topless karaoke murders" What profiteth a man, if he win a flame war, yet lose his cool? From williams.dan at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 06:18:03 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:18:03 +0100 Subject: Vax Media In-Reply-To: <200504032235.j33MZt33093012@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <26c11a6405040313553f7d158@mail.gmail.com> <200504032235.j33MZt33093012@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <26c11a640504270418778f05b0@mail.gmail.com> On 4/3/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Williams > > Sent: 03 April 2005 21:56 > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Vax Media > > > > Whilst we are on the subject of vax media does anyone have > > disk 4 of June 1997's vax spl. I seem to have misplaced it. > > Yep, should have, I don't think we stopped getting the updates till a bit > later than that.....I'll check. > > cheers > > a > > Did you find out anymore about this ?. Also are you picking stuff up from me for Fred ? Thanks Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 27 06:38:20 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:38:20 +0000 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> References: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: <1114601900.26716.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-26 at 23:02 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am trying to decide what to do with a bunch of 16-bit ISA IDE/Floppy > controller, etc. cards. Is there still a use for them, or should I just > add (most of) them to the (rapidly growing) scrap reclaim box? What > about 8-bit and/or 16-bit ethernet cards, no-name 8-bit serial/parallel > cards, older style floppy disk cables that still support the 5 1/4" > floppy drives? Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth saving? They still seem to change hands (for free) pretty often on the local university groups here. Particularly ethernet cards (useful for homebrew home firewalls I suppose), and parallel cards (handy for robotics projects?). Maybe there's a local place such as that you can at least advertise on rather than dumping them. Only you know what's worth keeping for yourself, of course :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 27 06:46:17 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:46:17 +0000 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1114602377.26716.16.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2005-04-26 at 21:08 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > At 07:35 PM 4/26/05 -0500, you wrote: > >From: "Tony Duell" > >Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 6:55 PM > >A friend of mine was a weapons office on a USN sub, one day we were talking > >about terrorists making a bomb. He started by saying the technology is > >above their heads. My response was get a bucket and put enough fissionable > >material in it and boom. > > Sorry but that won't work. After the first couple of generations of the > chain reaction it simply blows itself apart and the chain reaction dies. But coupled with conventional explosives I suppose it has the desired effect for the terrorists - it'll cause fear / chaos, particularly when the media sieze on the radioactive aspect. Disruption and fear seem to be more of a goal than actual killing. So as far as terrorist groups are concerned, it *does* work I suppose... cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 27 06:52:04 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 07:52:04 -0400 Subject: Another Honkin big Haul Message-ID: <20050427115203.ERXM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Hi guys, I just returned from the East coast (New Brunswick Canada) where I met with a gentleman who had a large collection of vintage equipment for me - Brought back one pickup truck worth, and will be returning next month for the rest - 1200km each way - by the time I am finished, I will have travelled nearly 5,000km! Here's what I received in total: S-100 systems: IMSAI 8080 NorthStar Horizon Cromemco Z-2D Cromemco System-3 (Older model with the dual/quad persci drives). Compupro 8086 S-100 system Wynchester Compuduct "Rainbow" (near S-100, has non-standard/tall cards). Multiflex mainboard with 4 S-100 slots & CPU card. Protec PRO-80 - Canadian SBC with one S-100 slot Box with 40-50 S-100 cards - in addition to the systems which are well populated - Found a number of Mits and IMS cards, also a Hayes Micromodem 100 - CPUs, disk controllers, memory etc. - haven't inventoried it all yet non S-100: Altos 586 Dec Rainbow Xerox 820-2 (with spare mainboard). 2x Dy4 Orion-V (STD bus Z80-CP/M system) Ohio Scientific SuperBoard-2 (in enclosure) Acorn Atom Nelma Persona (Canadian CP/M system) BMC IF800 Visual 1050 MAI Basic Four NEC APC NEC N5200/05 Megatel Quark (ultra small Canadian SBC) HAL (early Canadian IBM clone) Osborne-1 (1st edition "tan") Epson PX-8 Also, an ADM-3A terminal (good screen), as well as several boxes of odd's and ends, and boxes and boxes of documentation and software. Even got a nice little addition to my calculator section: A "Sinclair Scientific" complete with hard carry case and manual. Not quite sure where it's all going to go ... I also received a disassembled Grid Compas 1101 which had a battery leak causing irreparable damage to the mainboard - however there are lots of parts, bubble memory modules, complete documentation and original disks - if anyone needs any of these parts, please contact me. Coupled with the material I acquired in January, I figure this should keep me busy scanning and archiving for a good long time - Some of the material I am not very familier with, so I will no doubt be turning to the list for information from time to time... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 07:04:37 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:04:37 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <003e01c54af2$bb07d180$0500fea9@game> References: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050427080437.00942340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:31 AM 4/27/05 -0400, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 9:08 PM >Subject: Re: End of Surplus? > > >> >> Sorry but that won't work. After the first couple of generations of the >> chain reaction it simply blows itself apart and the chain reaction dies. >> That's why A bombs have POWERFUL chemical explosives to FORCE the nuclear >> material together. Getting the bomb to stay together long enough to work >> (ie, use up most of the available nuclear material) was probably THE >> biggest problem in the building of the A bomb. Ultimately two approaches >> were used, one was to fire to hemispheres of nuclear materail together by >> means of a modified 16 inch navel gun (Tall-boy) and the other was to >> implode a hollow sphere of material by explosives that completely >> surrounded it (Fat-man). Go read 'Building of the Atomic Bomb" by Richard >> Rhodes. It has a lot of detail on the subject. That book and "Building of >> the Nuclear Bomb" are both very interesting reading. >> >> Joe >> >> > >The major problem with the Fatman method was having the explosives >surrounding the uranium explode at the exact same time with 1940's era >electrical technology. Getting a uniform explosion to compress a ball off >enriched uranium so that a large chain reaction takes place is probably >still a pain to do for most countries wanting to build a bomb. A fraction of >a second off and you have a fizzle. Dealing with the explosives is no piece of cake either. They actually had to use layers of two different explosives to create a "lens" effect in order to focus the explosive force of each explosive panel onto the sphere. Simply surrounding the sphere with explosives didn't focus the force sufficiently. The electrical triggers that you mention are still a critical item and are a very precise and special part. Don't ask how I know but I do!! Joe > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 07:13:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:13:08 -0400 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:02 PM 4/26/05 -0700, you wrote: > >I am trying to decide what to do with a bunch of 16-bit ISA IDE/Floppy >controller, etc. cards. Is there still a use for them, or should I just >add (most of) them to the (rapidly growing) scrap reclaim box? What >about 8-bit and/or 16-bit ethernet cards, no-name 8-bit serial/parallel >cards, older style floppy disk cables that still support the 5 1/4" >floppy drives? If you have any disk conrollers that have their own BIOS they're probably worth keeping since the new computers only support a single drive. OTOH the older ISA/EISA/VLB cards aren't usuable in the newest (PCI only) machines so they may not be worth keeping depending on your situation. Old memory cards and some video cards are a good source of memory ICs that are hard to find (4 x256k, etc). Original IBM PC cards are probably worth saving since the PC is starting to become collectible. Joe Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth saving? >I am keeping all the disk controller cards, memory expansion cards, and >any specialized cards. Are they any Apple IIx cards worth saving? My >general rule there has been that if I have the docs, they are worth >saving. > >I have boxes of this stuff spread around and am looking for some >guidelines on what might be worth keeping! I am getting to the point >that anything past about 1984 or so goes. > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 07:10:28 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:10:28 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <200504270150.23877.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050427081028.00942580@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:50 AM 4/27/05 -0500, you wrote: >William Donzelli declared on Monday 25 April 2005 09:08 pm: >> > Any thoughts on this? >> >> As you know, but others may not, if you get in good with a scrap guy, >> he will sell you just about anything, provided you don't cross him. > >I "haven't" acquired a 50W CO2 laser (working) and several small >labratory x-ray setups that can attest to that fact. > >If your scrap dealer is telling you this stuff, you aren't nearly good >enough friends with him. :) That's true. He's not one of my primary sources and he is sort of difficult to deal with. But so far he's telling his regular customers the same thing. I've got a really good repore going with >the guys at my primary scrap/surplus place, which helps immensely in >getting interesting stuff, for cheap. When I was going through a huge >load of early-80s era equipment they managed to get a month or so ago, >the guy said to me "I'm glad you're getting this stuff, before the >pilferers got to it." I have one source that REALLY gets a lot of stuff that should never have gotten out. (You DON'T want to know!!!) They turn it all over to me. I NEVER sell any of it even though I've had SIGNIFICANT offers for some of it. Joe > >Pat >-- >Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ >The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From cb at mythtech.net Wed Apr 27 07:19:13 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:19:13 -0400 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing Message-ID: >Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth saving? >I am keeping all the disk controller cards, memory expansion cards, and >any specialized cards. Are they any Apple IIx cards worth saving? My >general rule there has been that if I have the docs, they are worth >saving. I can't tell you what is worth saving, as only you know what your interests are... but if you do end up with any Apple II series cards you decide to dump, I'd be willing to cover shipping to send them to me (plus a few bucks for your time/effort to pack them up). -chris From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Apr 27 08:01:56 2005 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:01:56 -0500 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050427073714.04f33df8@mail> At 06:02 PM 4/26/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >On Mon, 25 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: >> Any thoughts on this? >Yeah: Fuck the DHS. Careful, there may be DHS spies on this list, sent here to make sure that no third-world terr-ist gets ahold of any surplus antiquities. Not that they'd shoot first at the ones with the furr-in names or anything like that. Nothing to see here, please move along. At 06:55 PM 4/26/2005, Tony Duell wrote: >Care to explain why those are not of use to terrorists. For that matter a >cookery book is of use to a terrorist (presumably they have to eat >sometime...) Last winter I read Nigel Slater's "Toast" and learned a tremendous amount about English cooking and boyhood. My word, it's different over there! At 08:08 PM 4/26/2005, Joe R. wrote: >Sorry but that won't work. After the first couple of generations of the >chain reaction it simply blows itself apart and the chain reaction dies. Define "work". If your intent is to simply spread the dust of some highly radioactive industrial waste around a city, you don't need fission, fusion, a surplus computer or even a bucket. - John From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 27 08:16:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:16:42 +0000 Subject: S100 haul Message-ID: <1114607802.26733.35.camel@weka.localdomain> Just read Dave D's post - seems to be the week for S100 stuff! We picked up a van load at the weekend - 19 Horizons (another 3 are on the way!), 9 Minstrels, a Cromemco (I forget which!), and an imperial buttload (artistic licence :) of S100 spares. Reasonable amount of documentation and floppies too, plus some useful test gear (logic analyser, DRAM / SIMM tester, capacitance meter). This was from a house where the old chap had died recently - to say he was a bit of a hoarder was an understatement. The house was floor to ceiling with computers, docs, software, newspapers, books, photos, videos. Unfortunately the chap's son who was there with us was paranoid about there being sensitive information buried in everything, so 90% of the docs and disks had to be left behind - ditto with most of the components and test gear as he was worried they'd still be on the books from the guy's old business and he'd be liable if they were released. Shame as it means there's a lot of stuff that's going to get trashed (it wasn't the sort of thing that'd have any resale value). We got a lot of the hardware. I think there were a couple of Minstrels and Televideos left, along with a BBC Micro, Sinclair QL, a pile of mono displays, and a dull Amstrad wordprocessor machine. We've not had time to sort through everything that we picked up yet. I did notice some S100 vector graphics boards that caught my eye... Some quick pics: http://www.patooie.com/temp/northstars_sm.jpg http://www.patooie.com/temp/minstrels_sm.jpg http://www.patooie.com/temp/s100_spares_sm.jpg (lots more spares in boxes out of shot!) All weekend was spent loading and unloading stuff - will try and get an inventory of the boards within a few days... cheers Jules From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 27 08:24:25 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:24:25 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <6.2.1.2.2.20050427073714.04f33df8@mail> Message-ID: <015601c54b2c$6ec5fb00$3a92a8c0@maggie> my ebay purchase came in, and I figured out the the addressing, but a manual would be be nice -alas couldn't find one on bitsavers - anyone know where to find one? also, anyone have a couple of sdi cables kicking around - for sale or trade - I want to try out my sdi drives - do I need the bulkheads and an odd number if wires - even if going directly from controller to drive (say one drive to one port)? Are terminators required? and online/wp switches/dongles needed? cheers -h From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Apr 27 08:35:46 2005 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:35:46 -0400 Subject: Another Honkin big Haul In-Reply-To: <20050427115203.ERXM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050427115203.ERXM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <426F9532.5010800@comcast.net> Dave, I'm located in Pittsburgh and may be interested in some items that you have. I'm trying to get a group together to showcase our collection for the local Science Center here. Together with my collection and others we hope to put on a nice exhibit. At the moment, I was looking to see what S-100 boards and peripherals you found. I guess when you get things inventoried, I'll know better what we could use. thanks, Dan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ My Corner of Cyberspace ] [ http://ragooman.home.comcast.net/ ] [ Pittsburgh Robotics Society Got Robot ? ] [ http://www.pghrobotics.org/ ] [ Pittsburgh Vintage Computer Society Classic Computers ] [ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pghvintagecomp/ ] ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dave Dunfield wrote: >Hi guys, > >I just returned from the East coast (New Brunswick Canada) where I met >with a gentleman who had a large collection of vintage equipment for >me - Brought back one pickup truck worth, and will be returning next >month for the rest - 1200km each way - by the time I am finished, I >will have travelled nearly 5,000km! > >Here's what I received in total: > >S-100 systems: > IMSAI 8080 > NorthStar Horizon > Cromemco Z-2D > Cromemco System-3 (Older model with the dual/quad persci drives). > Compupro 8086 S-100 system > Wynchester > Compuduct "Rainbow" (near S-100, has non-standard/tall cards). > Multiflex mainboard with 4 S-100 slots & CPU card. > Protec PRO-80 - Canadian SBC with one S-100 slot > Box with 40-50 S-100 cards - in addition to the systems which are well > populated - Found a number of Mits and IMS cards, also a Hayes Micromodem > 100 - CPUs, disk controllers, memory etc. - haven't inventoried it all > yet > >non S-100: > Altos 586 > Dec Rainbow > Xerox 820-2 (with spare mainboard). > 2x Dy4 Orion-V (STD bus Z80-CP/M system) > Ohio Scientific SuperBoard-2 (in enclosure) > Acorn Atom > Nelma Persona (Canadian CP/M system) > BMC IF800 > Visual 1050 > MAI Basic Four > NEC APC > NEC N5200/05 > Megatel Quark (ultra small Canadian SBC) > HAL (early Canadian IBM clone) > Osborne-1 (1st edition "tan") > Epson PX-8 > >Also, an ADM-3A terminal (good screen), as well as several boxes of >odd's and ends, and boxes and boxes of documentation and software. >Even got a nice little addition to my calculator section: A "Sinclair >Scientific" complete with hard carry case and manual. > >Not quite sure where it's all going to go ... > >I also received a disassembled Grid Compas 1101 which had a battery >leak causing irreparable damage to the mainboard - however there are >lots of parts, bubble memory modules, complete documentation and >original disks - if anyone needs any of these parts, please contact >me. > >Coupled with the material I acquired in January, I figure this should >keep me busy scanning and archiving for a good long time - Some of the >material I am not very familier with, so I will no doubt be turning to >the list for information from time to time... > > >Regards, >Dave > > -- -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.3 - Release Date: 4/25/2005 From cb at mythtech.net Wed Apr 27 08:48:58 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:48:58 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive Message-ID: My wife has declared that I must remove all my toys from the living room floor. She is tired of it looking like an "electronics graveyard" as she has been calling it for the last week. And it isn't even that bad, I just have two laser disc players with a small stack of discs, two surround sound amps, a VCR, a Video Conference terminal, two NeXT slabs, my PowerBook 1400, a TRS-80, and a Tandy 1000 with monitor and printer... there is still a path to get thru the room, so I don't understand what the problem is. But I know if I don't appease her, she will move onto the garage and/or basement... THEN I'm in trouble! :-) Regarding the TRS-80. It has no floppy drives. I haven't really looked at it yet, but I presume it can be connected to a standard tape recorder to use cassettes (it came with the case pre-markered saying "No floppy drives, use cassettes"... that will be a different project to scrub that off). What is the easiest way for me to obtain software and transfer to cassette? I have no other machines currently setup to read/write to cassette. However, I do have Windows and Mac setups that I can capture an audio stream to cassette if there is some repository of WAV files or similar archives of software. Anyone want to point me in the right direction? -chris From MGemeny at pgcps.org Wed Apr 27 08:50:48 2005 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:50:48 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron Message-ID: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> You can build your own rotary phase converter from an old 3 phase motor. And 3 phase motors can be some of the cheapest to get second hand. It seems that a three phase motor will not start if a phase is missing, but if it is running it will continue to run if a phase is removed. The combination of the energized windings and the spinning rotor will have the effect of creating the third phase, although this is not an efficient state of affairs. In my home machine shop I first used a bank of capacitors to help synthesize the third phase. The bank of WWII tin caps was adjusted until the lathe motor was running with the least buzz. Then I added a three phase chipper. The first time I slammed the lathe from forward to reverse with the chipper I was surprised that the lathe reversed and the strain of reversing it could be heard in the chipper motor. Then I added a three phase grinder to the setup. But when the grinder was used alone the cap bank was the wrong size and the motor had a terrible buzz in it. So I released the drive belt on the lathe and turned on the lathe motor. Bingo! The buzz in the grinder was gone! So in this configuration I am in essence using the caps to start the lathe motor as a rotary phase converter for the grinder. Hope this helps, Mike Gemeny From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 27 09:09:01 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:09:01 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114610941.26716.40.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 09:48 -0400, chris wrote: > My wife has declared that I must remove all my toys from the living room > floor. So raising them above floor level by a few mm would satisfy her? :-) Wonder if you could velcro them to the ceiling? Then run away very quickly... From jim.isbell at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 09:14:25 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:14:25 -0500 Subject: OT?? Re: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/27/05, chris wrote: > But I know if I don't appease her, she will move onto the > garage and/or basement... Wow, you have a verry understanding wife. Mine would move ME into the garage or basement. Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 27 09:21:11 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:21:11 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive References: Message-ID: <00b301c54b34$5d4961c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > it isn't even that bad, > I just have {Eleven plus components in the Living Room} > Anyone want to point me in the right direction? Can you clear out the Living Room entirely? Move all hobby stuff to one room, either the basement or Garage, or the spare room, if you are so lucky to have one. John A. BTW I've seen your office. Perhaps "bad" needs redefinition. From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 27 09:36:27 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:36:27 -0400 Subject: End of Surplus? References: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050427080437.00942340@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <00eb01c54b36$89e79560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> BTW I really don't like the idea of this list going criminal, advocating subversive activities and such. What's the point of the thread anyway? "Please don't take our supercomputers mister terrorist... Here, I'll tell you how to make the Bomb, just don't touch my G4." John A. just stay on topic From cb at mythtech.net Wed Apr 27 09:45:36 2005 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:45:36 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive Message-ID: >Can you clear out the Living Room entirely? >Move all hobby stuff to one room, either the basement >or Garage, or the spare room, if you are so lucky to have >one. You assume I haven't already taken over the basement and the garage ;-) -chris From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Apr 27 09:52:23 2005 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:52:23 -0400 Subject: Apple // - Finally Success!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114613543.22413.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Tue, 2005-04-26 at 22:30 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > On a related note, will Wizardry I run on a Apple //gs? > Zane I'd guess yes, as more than likely any disk images you find out there are the cracked version. It'd also depend if Apple Pascal ran on the IIgs. (Which again, I'd guess yes on) Hardcore Computerist(?) once published an article on how to deprotect Wizardry I. (If anyone happens to have/know of that article, I'd kinda like to arrange get a copy of it (Xerox/Scans are fine) for nostalgia sake.. - yes, I did spend many many hours as a teenager putzing w/ Wizardry I's protection scheme) David From allain at panix.com Wed Apr 27 09:53:17 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:53:17 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><6.2.1.2.2.20050427073714.04f33df8@mail> <015601c54b2c$6ec5fb00$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <00f801c54b38$d97b10a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Seek "KDA50" on http://vt100.net/manx/ Get "EK-KDA5Q-UG-004 1987-11 KDA50 User Guide" http://208.190.133.201/decimages/kda5qug4.pdf (Which just seems to prove that the DFWUG is down) and http://vt100.net/mirror/hcps/kda5qug4.pdf (Which is there) > do I need the bulkheads and an odd number if wires - even if > going directly from controller to drive (say one drive to one port)? How big is the drive? Sounds like an external enclosure with its own bulkhead. ? John A. From kth at srv.net Wed Apr 27 11:18:32 2005 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:18:32 -0600 Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> Message-ID: <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> Mike Gemeny wrote: >You can build your own rotary phase converter from an old 3 phase motor. And 3 phase motors can be some of the cheapest to get second hand. > >It seems that a three phase motor will not start if a phase is missing, but if it is running it will continue to run if a phase is removed. The combination of the energized windings and the spinning rotor will have the effect of creating the third phase, although this is not an efficient state of affairs. > >In my home machine shop I first used a bank of capacitors to help synthesize the third phase. The bank of WWII tin caps was adjusted until the lathe motor was running with the least buzz. > >Then I added a three phase chipper. The first time I slammed the lathe from forward to reverse with the chipper I was surprised that the lathe reversed and the strain of reversing it could be heard in the chipper motor. > >Then I added a three phase grinder to the setup. But when the grinder was used alone the cap bank was the wrong size and the motor had a terrible buzz in it. So I released the drive belt on the lathe and turned on the lathe motor. Bingo! The buzz in the grinder was gone! > >So in this configuration I am in essence using the caps to start the lathe motor as a rotary phase converter for the grinder. > > Note that you can now buy solid state phase converters. I have a brother that switched to one in his wood-shop, and it has many advantages: More efficient (cheaper to run); more motors work with it; more power is available on created phases; quieter; etc. It works much better than the rotery ones he used to use; which were designed as phase converters, not just some large three pase motors; and his equipment is much happier, too. From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 27 10:54:01 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:54:01 -0700 Subject: Storage, was Re: TRS-80 without floppy drive Message-ID: <426FB599.80FA0A98@rain.org> Ah yes, do you know how to store tighter :)? I've moved out/tossed perhaps 1000 - 2000 cubic feet of stuff, and can kind of see a difference. Another thought we've had here is to sell tickets at maybe $20.00 a pop for people to "tour" certain areas of the house/garage/etc. We figure the biggest market would be to people whose wives complain about the amount of stuff *they* have :). > >Can you clear out the Living Room entirely? > >Move all hobby stuff to one room, either the basement > >or Garage, or the spare room, if you are so lucky to have > >one. > > You assume I haven't already taken over the basement and the garage ;-) > > -chris > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 27 11:30:48 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? Message-ID: <200504271630.JAA09436@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Randy McLaughlin" > > >A friend of mine was a weapons office on a USN sub, one day we were talking >about terrorists making a bomb. He started by saying the technology is >above their heads. My response was get a bucket and put enough fissionable >material in it and boom. Hi It is a little more complicated than that. You method would just make a big pile of hot radioactive mess. No boom. If you put it in something that would also evaporate, you could make a mess like Chernobel (sp?). To make a bomb, you have to quickly cause a large number of neutrons with the right energy level. You also have to contain it long eneough for things to multiply before it pushes it self apart. Making a small bomb is beyond most anyones capabilities. Making a really large one is not as hard. Dwight > >He said it wouldn't be efficient and you wouldn't no when it would blow, I >said who cares if you have a nuclear explosion in a major city that's >terrorism. > > >Randy >www.s100-manuals.com > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Apr 27 12:05:09 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:05:09 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:24:25 EDT." <015601c54b2c$6ec5fb00$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <200504271705.j3RH5AqL021276@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Heinz Wolter" wrote: >- do I need the bulkheads and an odd number if wires - even if >going directly from controller to drive (say one drive to one port)? I've been running SDI drives off a UDA50 with just a single cable for testing. Seems to work fine. Not mechanically secure but good for making sure the drive works. If you use more than one cable you need an odd number of cables to get the pin swapping to work right. Don't have any extras, sorry. Could use a few more myself :-) -brad From cheri-post at web.de Wed Apr 27 12:20:33 2005 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:20:33 +0200 Subject: Fujitsu M2344 w/ HMD-interface, what's that? Message-ID: <762226345@web.de> Hi all, got this disk drive recently and figured out that its interface is HSMD, which seems to be a modification of the SMD-Interface. Ok, I know E-SMD, which is faster than SMD, so another modification, but H-SMD ?? I've never seen a controller doing H-SMD. What about the Emulex QD33? It does SMD as well as E-SMD. Can I use that one for this drive? Any hints? Regards, Pierre _______________________________________________________________ Fruhlings-Aktion: Gratis DSL-Modems zur freien Auswahl Nur bis 30. April bei WEB.DE DSL! https://dsl.web.de/?mc=021193 From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 27 12:25:27 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:25:27 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <200504271705.j3RH5AqL021276@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <018401c54b4e$1b6eb6a0$3a92a8c0@maggie> it is possible to build them with just 50 ohm thin coax soldered to 0.1 connectors? or are they tightly impedance dependent? Are there resistors on the drive ends? I assume that it takes 2 coax cables per drive (in/out) - thus 4 connections ? regards, heinz From: "Brad Parker" wrote : Subject: Re: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions > >- do I need the bulkheads and an odd number if wires - even if > >going directly from controller to drive (say one drive to one port)? > > I've been running SDI drives off a UDA50 with just a single cable for > testing. Seems to work fine. Not mechanically secure but good for > making sure the drive works. > > If you use more than one cable you need an odd number of cables to get > the pin swapping to work right. > > Don't have any extras, sorry. Could use a few more myself :-) > > -brad From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 12:49:11 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 13:49:11 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <018401c54b4e$1b6eb6a0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200504271705.j3RH5AqL021276@mwave.heeltoe.com> <018401c54b4e$1b6eb6a0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: On 4/27/05, Heinz Wolter wrote: > it is possible to build them with just 50 ohm thin coax soldered to 0.1 > connectors? or are they tightly impedance dependent? Are there > resistors on the drive ends? No idea. Never tried to make one. > I assume that it takes 2 coax cables per drive (in/out) - thus 4 connections There are 4 coax cables that make up the bundle. No idea about the what goes where, but I _think_ it's clock and data per direction (in, in clock, out, out clock). -ethan From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 12:49:16 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:49:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // - Finally Success!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At this point I'm *seriously* disgusted with DSK2FILE. I transferred > "Asimov 2.0" over to my //gs, and I'm able to successfully create the > floppies! Like I said, some people should not be allowed to write software. > On a related note, will Wizardry I run on a Apple //gs? I don't see why not. It's Apple Pascal based so as long as Apple Pascal can run on the //gs then... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 12:51:21 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am trying to decide what to do with a bunch of 16-bit ISA IDE/Floppy > controller, etc. cards. Is there still a use for them, or should I just > add (most of) them to the (rapidly growing) scrap reclaim box? What > about 8-bit and/or 16-bit ethernet cards, no-name 8-bit serial/parallel > cards, older style floppy disk cables that still support the 5 1/4" > floppy drives? Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth saving? > I am keeping all the disk controller cards, memory expansion cards, and > any specialized cards. Are they any Apple IIx cards worth saving? My > general rule there has been that if I have the docs, they are worth > saving. I keep all "interesting" Apple ][ cards, which is to say anything that isn't a disk controller or a Super Serial Card (I have tonnes of those). As far as PC stuff, I would keep a few of what you find useful and scrap the rest. The world will be littered with them for a few more years so you'll have plenty of time to settle any regrets before they all disappear. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 12:55:29 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Another Honkin big Haul In-Reply-To: <20050427115203.ERXM5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I just returned from the East coast (New Brunswick Canada) where I met > with a gentleman who had a large collection of vintage equipment for > me - Brought back one pickup truck worth, and will be returning next > month for the rest - 1200km each way - by the time I am finished, I > will have travelled nearly 5,000km! <...> > Coupled with the material I acquired in January, I figure this should > keep me busy scanning and archiving for a good long time - Some of the > material I am not very familier with, so I will no doubt be turning to > the list for information from time to time... Hauls like these don't happen too often anymore. Nice score! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 13:01:10 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: <1114607802.26733.35.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > We picked up a van load at the weekend - 19 Horizons (another 3 are on > the way!), 9 Minstrels, a Cromemco (I forget which!), and an imperial > buttload (artistic licence :) of S100 spares. Good Lord! That's a lot of Horizons! Never heard of the Minstrel but it looks keen. > This was from a house where the old chap had died recently - to say he > was a bit of a hoarder was an understatement. The house was floor to > ceiling with computers, docs, software, newspapers, books, photos, > videos. Unfortunately the chap's son who was there with us was paranoid > about there being sensitive information buried in everything, so 90% of > the docs and disks had to be left behind - ditto with most of the > components and test gear as he was worried they'd still be on the books > from the guy's old business and he'd be liable if they were released. Ugh! Luddites!! The bane of computer collectors the world over. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 13:07:05 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple // - Finally Success!! In-Reply-To: <1114613543.22413.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, David Holland wrote: > I'd guess yes, as more than likely any disk images you find out there > are the cracked version. It'd also depend if Apple Pascal ran on the > IIgs. (Which again, I'd guess yes on) I never did see a cracked version of Wizardry. And I can't remember where my attempt ended up. I think I was stymied by some synchornization check later on in the program. At any rate, it was easy enough to copy. You just had to make sure you set the "Synchronize tracks" option in the copy program you used. > Hardcore Computerist(?) Computist > ...once published an article on how to deprotect > Wizardry I. (If anyone happens to have/know of that article, I'd kinda > like to arrange get a copy of it (Xerox/Scans are fine) for nostalgia > sake.. - yes, I did spend many many hours as a teenager putzing w/ > Wizardry I's protection scheme) I should have that issue (I have nearly a complete run of the magazine). If I have time I might re-visit cracking Wizardry. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 27 13:14:02 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:14:02 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: <1114610941.26716.40.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001101c54b54$e5346740$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Jules Richardson wrote: > On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 09:48 -0400, chris wrote: >> My wife has declared that I must remove all my toys from the >> living room floor. > > So raising them above floor level by a few mm would satisfy > her? :-) Well the guy who collected the $10K for the "Moore's Law" article kept his excess under the floorboards ... I assume you've already aexhausted that avenue? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 13:18:14 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:18:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <018401c54b4e$1b6eb6a0$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200504271705.j3RH5AqL021276@mwave.heeltoe.com> <018401c54b4e$1b6eb6a0$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <1651.82.152.112.73.1114625894.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > it is possible to build them with just 50 ohm thin coax soldered to 0.1 > connectors? > or are they tightly impedance dependent? Are there resistors on the drive > ends? > I assume that it takes 2 coax cables per drive (in/out) - thus 4 > connections The standard SDI cables we have for a KDA50 are made of a single 32-way BERG type plug that breaks out into 4 8-way separate cables. These terminate in VAX bulkhead connectors, and even though it was only last week that I set up an SDI disk system I can't remember if the bulkhead connectors can be removed to allow you to plug the 8-way cable ends directly into a drive :o\ If not you need 3 cables to get the pinouts correctly aligned; typically you had the KDA50 -> bulkhead then the 'liquorish' flat cable to the drive housing/cabinet, then another bulkhead -> drive connection that was internal to the housing/cabinet. I don't have pinouts but it should be fairly easy to make something I would've thought. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Apr 27 12:55:22 2005 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:55:22 +0100 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:48:58 EDT." Message-ID: <200504271755.SAA08260@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, chris said: > Regarding the TRS-80. It has no floppy drives. I haven't really looked at > it yet, but I presume it can be connected to a standard tape recorder to > use cassettes (it came with the case pre-markered saying "No floppy > drives, use cassettes"... that will be a different project to scrub that > off). > > What is the easiest way for me to obtain software and transfer to > cassette? I have no other machines currently setup to read/write to > cassette. However, I do have Windows and Mac setups that I can capture an > audio stream to cassette if there is some repository of WAV files or > similar archives of software. > http://www.trs-80.com/ is a good place to start. I actually have an original Tandy tape recorder that I bought when my TRS-80 was new...didn't use it much, I moved to an Exatron Stringy Floppy then to real floppys pretty quick! (I must get round to fixing my TRS-80, last time I plugged it in it let the magic smoke out... :-( ) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 13:20:57 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:20:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: References: <1114607802.26733.35.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1677.82.152.112.73.1114626057.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> We picked up a van load at the weekend - 19 Horizons (another 3 are on >> the way!), 9 Minstrels, a Cromemco (I forget which!), and an imperial >> buttload (artistic licence :) of S100 spares. > > Good Lord! That's a lot of Horizons! Never heard of the Minstrel but it > looks keen. I've got an advert for one in my stash of unscanned mags, but I'm pretty sure it was a standard (if such a word could be applied) Z80 powered CP/M box but initially single user instead of multiuser like the Horizon. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Apr 27 13:34:05 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:34:05 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <1651.82.152.112.73.1114625894.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <001201c54b57$b2a3bbc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Witchy wrote: > The standard SDI cables we have for a KDA50 are made of a > single 32-way BERG type plug that breaks out into 4 8-way > separate cables. These terminate in VAX bulkhead connectors, > and even though it was only last week that I set up an SDI > disk system I can't remember if the bulkhead connectors can be > removed to allow you to plug the 8-way cable ends directly > into a drive :o\ It's been a few years now, but I'm sure that I've removed the metal bulkhead ends so I could got directly from KDA50 ro RA7x in a MicroVAX 3900. I'm also sure that the process was non-destructive (i.e reversible - undo a few screws and the two halves of the bulkhead connector come apart). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 27 13:45:46 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:46 -0700 Subject: 6802 disassembler Message-ID: <426FDDDA.D6CF68D6@rain.org> Can someone recommend a freeware 6802 disassembler. The Micro General postal scale that I have (circa 1983) has a 6802 processor with five 27c64 Eproms. I've copied the eprom binarys to disk, and now want to see what the program does. It has lost its calibration (the backup battery died) and upon replacing the battery, it is calling for a calibration and I've not been able to find any informaton on the web regarding how to calibrate the scale. So it looks like time to do it the hard way :). Thanks! From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Wed Apr 27 13:47:39 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:47:39 -0400 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478080FA931@exchange.olf.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5190497915 &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Ram (c) 2005 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From sieler at allegro.com Wed Apr 27 13:52:24 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:52:24 -0700 Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050425214759.0095fe20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <426F7CF8.5186.575B00B@localhost> Re: > Any thoughts on this? Ask him to lease you the equipment for 99 years for the price you'd have paid to buy it :) -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Wed Apr 27 13:57:05 2005 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:57:05 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 (was Re: Cray picked up today) In-Reply-To: <57443.207.145.53.202.1114469277.squirrel@207.145.53.202> References: <1114459900.9261.9.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <426F7E11.13589.579FA30@localhost> Re: > If you (or anyone) know of any 360 or 370 machines that are available, > please let me know, as I'd like to try to get another 360 or 370 for > the Computer History Museum (www.computerhistory.org). A friend from Africa suggested looking at some African countries that bought a lot of ancient 360s in the 70s and 80s ... he says many are still running. Unfortunately, I can't contact him. Still, this might be something to pursue. One avenue might be to contact US embassies in various African countries and ask their business development staff/person to look around. -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 27 14:07:22 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:07:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: S100 haul Message-ID: <200504271907.MAA09518@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jules Richardson" ---snip--- > http://www.patooie.com/temp/s100_spares_sm.jpg Hi I wonder if the disk are all hard sectored or if they are soft sectored. Dave Dunfield has been working on methods to transfer disk images over serial lines from the N*. It would be a massive job to filter through all those disk. Who knows, one might find a jewel for Jules in the lot :) Dwight From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 27 14:07:26 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:07:26 -0400 Subject: 6802 disassembler References: <426FDDDA.D6CF68D6@rain.org> Message-ID: <019c01c54b5c$59e1c590$3a92a8c0@maggie> same as a 6800 dissembler ;)- no new instructions. just 128 bytes ram. show be able to find tons by google - even a nice simulator to load and single step would be handier to do what you want. You'd need to guess where the IOs are mapped - maybe interfaced through a 6820 or directly to the clock chip. see for eg http://fie.engrng.pitt.edu/fie95/3b3/3b33/3b33.htm here's a unixish one. http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Harbor/8707/simulator/sim68xx/sim68xx.html cheers -h "Marvin Johnston" wrote > Can someone recommend a freeware 6802 disassembler. The Micro General > postal scale that I have (circa 1983) has a 6802 processor with five > 27c64 Eproms. I've copied the eprom binarys to disk, and now want to see > what the program does. It has lost its calibration (the backup battery > died) and upon replacing the battery, it is calling for a calibration > and I've not been able to find any informaton on the web regarding how > to calibrate the scale. So it looks like time to do it the hard way :). > Thanks! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:15:48 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:15:48 +0000 Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114629348.26733.106.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 11:01 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > We picked up a van load at the weekend - 19 Horizons (another 3 are on > > the way!), 9 Minstrels, a Cromemco (I forget which!), and an imperial > > buttload (artistic licence :) of S100 spares. > > Good Lord! That's a lot of Horizons! Yep. The chap who passed away was the first person to import and sell Horizons in the UK way back when apparently, so he did have a legitimate reason to have that many (at least at one time! :-) I think we've already got 5 Horizons, so along with those ones and the three on the way that'll 27 of the buggers. Quite obviously, we are not going to be holding on to that many! :) Shame a few of them have honking great red reset switches mounted in the front :-( > Never heard of the Minstrel but it looks keen. It was a Brit S-100 system apparently - nothing particularly fancy about it though (well, no more so than any S-100 box). Of course there's quite possibly some interesting boards in this lot, that's before even looking at all the boxed boards that we picked up at the same time (maybe a hundred or so) > > This was from a house where the old chap had died recently - to say he > > was a bit of a hoarder was an understatement. The house was floor to > > ceiling with computers, docs, software, newspapers, books, photos, > > videos. Unfortunately the chap's son who was there with us was paranoid > > about there being sensitive information buried in everything, so 90% of > > the docs and disks had to be left behind - ditto with most of the > > components and test gear as he was worried they'd still be on the books > > from the guy's old business and he'd be liable if they were released. > > Ugh! Luddites!! The bane of computer collectors the world over. Yep. On the other hand, it's nice that we had a chance to rescue *anything* I suppose - often this sort of stuff would likely all go to landfill. I'm hoping we'll get a chance to go back when it's realised that what's left is all junk (at least as far as these people are concerned) - there were some useful tools and PCB equipment that'd be handy for us to have, and one room was so full of junk still that we didn't have time to do more than skim the surface of it. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Apr 27 14:16:27 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 12:16:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 6802 disassembler Message-ID: <200504271916.MAA09523@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >Can someone recommend a freeware 6802 disassembler. The Micro General >postal scale that I have (circa 1983) has a 6802 processor with five >27c64 Eproms. I've copied the eprom binarys to disk, and now want to see >what the program does. It has lost its calibration (the backup battery >died) and upon replacing the battery, it is calling for a calibration >and I've not been able to find any informaton on the web regarding how >to calibrate the scale. So it looks like time to do it the hard way :). >Thanks! > Hi Marvin I think the 6802 is compatable with the 6800 code. If so, any 6800 disassembler would work. I may have some code to do the disassembly someplace but it is stuff I wrote and isn't too user friendly. If you can't get anything more standard, let me know and I can disassemble it for you. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:17:44 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:17:44 +0100 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478080FA931@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <200504271918.j3RJI09L011311@dewey.classiccmp.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ram > Meenakshisundaram > Sent: 27 April 2005 19:48 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&i tem=5190497915 > &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > That's from our very own Rich Beaudry, who hasn't been seen here for a while. If I was remotely interested in IBM PC stuff I'd probably have a bid :) a From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:20:22 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:20:22 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <001201c54b57$b2a3bbc0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200504271920.j3RJKbDx011374@dewey.classiccmp.org> > Witchy wrote: > > The standard SDI cables we have for a KDA50 are made of a single > > 32-way BERG type plug that breaks out into 4 8-way separate cables. > > These terminate in VAX bulkhead connectors, and even though it was > > only last week that I set up an SDI disk system I can't remember if > > the bulkhead connectors can be removed to allow you to plug > the 8-way > > cable ends directly into a drive :o\ > > It's been a few years now, but I'm sure that I've removed the > metal bulkhead ends so I could got directly from KDA50 ro > RA7x in a MicroVAX 3900. I'm also sure that the process was > non-destructive (i.e reversible - undo a few screws and the > two halves of the bulkhead connector come apart). I can check on friday.....if I remember! A From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 14:26:28 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:26:28 +0100 Subject: Vax Media In-Reply-To: <26c11a640504270418778f05b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200504271926.j3RJQhOF011465@dewey.classiccmp.org> > > Yep, should have, I don't think we stopped getting the > updates till a > > bit later than that.....I'll check. > > > > cheers > > > > a > > > > > Did you find out anymore about this ?. Yup, the latest I have down here is Jan 95 so that must've been the year the CDDS started coming in a folder instead of the separate boxes. My folders are at home up north in the garage :/ > Also are you picking stuff up from me for Fred ? Not that I know of, but you're obviously not that far from Bletchley so I'm sure we can sort something out! a From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Apr 27 14:40:59 2005 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:40:59 -0400 Subject: S100 haul Message-ID: <20050427194058.LEPV5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> > I wonder if the disk are all hard sectored or if they >are soft sectored. Dave Dunfield has been working on >methods to transfer disk images over serial lines >from the N*. It would be a massive job to filter through >all those disk. Who knows, one might find a jewel for Jules >in the lot :) Hi Dwight, I've recently acquired a box of at least 1000 N* disks, and have been slowly going through them and transferring the material to image files. Most of it is rather boring business software, however I have found original copies of several different versions of various operating systems that I did not have before, as well as some utility and language disks ... It's going to take quite a while, but I'll make any non-personal/confidential material available once I'm done. Hey Jules - if you want to part with one or two of those Horizons, it would make the job far faster to have multiple machines running in parallel... Also, if you are interested in my transfer utilities and a simulator which can boot up and use the images, I have all of the material available on my site. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 27 14:52:20 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:52:20 -0400 Subject: S100 haul Message-ID: <0IFM00GRCF77K4NI@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: S100 haul > From: "Witchy" > Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:20:57 +0100 (BST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Jules Richardson wrote: >> >>> We picked up a van load at the weekend - 19 Horizons (another 3 are on >>> the way!), 9 Minstrels, a Cromemco (I forget which!), and an imperial >>> buttload (artistic licence :) of S100 spares. Im impressed! >adrian/witchy >I've got an advert for one in my stash of unscanned mags, but I'm pretty >sure it was a standard (if such a word could be applied) Z80 powered CP/M >box but initially single user instead of multiuser like the Horizon. The NS* horizon is a Z80/4mhz single user S100 system though NS* offered a multiuser OS and basic for it. I know I'm an owner of two. The first I built for myself in 1977! Allison From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 27 16:00:45 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:00:45 +0100 Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: <1114629348.26733.106.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1114629348.26733.106.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <426FFD7D.3090805@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > I think we've already got 5 Horizons, so along with those ones and the > three on the way that'll 27 of the buggers. Quite obviously, we are not > going to be holding on to that many! :) I'll have one! I used to have one but it got "lost in a move" somewhere - more likely skipped by an arsehole who used to share the same flat as me. Gordon. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 16:13:56 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:13:56 +0100 Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: <0IFM00GRCF77K4NI@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200504272114.j3RLEDk7013248@dewey.classiccmp.org> > >powered CP/M box but initially single user instead of > multiuser like the Horizon. > > The NS* horizon is a Z80/4mhz single user S100 system though > NS* offered a multiuser OS and basic for it. The reason I thought the N* was multiuser is that all the machines I've seen have had more than 1 RS232 port on the back for terminals.....this makes me think the Minstrel was 'just' a N* clone from the UK :) a From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 27 16:45:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:45:24 -0400 Subject: S100 haul Message-ID: <0IFM00GJUKFMUU48@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: S100 haul > From: "Adrian Graham" > Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:13:56 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >The reason I thought the N* was multiuser is that all the machines I've seen >have had more than 1 RS232 port on the back for terminals.....this makes me >think the Minstrel was 'just' a N* clone from the UK :) If anything they are both generic S100 crates. Most S100 systems needed at least two serial ports. One for the console and often if there was a modem one for that. In my case I used a DEC 100 printer which happens to be a serial interface rather than parallel. Those that did run multiuser often had many more than two ports. I have a few S100 4 port cards and have seen systems easily capable of running 8 or more users. If anything S100 was the PC of the era in the sense that there wer plenty of crate (bus and power) vendors and a plethora of board suppliers. At times mixing and matching was like PCs post XT era in that most boards nearly worked but there were variantion on interpretation on bus standard. The Apple and SS50 bus machines (6800 and 6809) were also common too in the way of machines with some kind of bus that multiple things could be plugged into. In Europe there was ECB bus and I suspect others. So in most cases S100 implies generic system but little beyond that. For example for S100 the cpu list included everything up to and including 386s! By specifiying a vendor of S100 system we are usually talking about box/CPU/FDC as an agragate system from vendor. It was common to have memory from the same of multiple vendors and possibly added IO. A pure single vendor S100 system is sometimes uncommon. It just so happens that NS* marketed the Horizon as complete systems that were business ready and modestly priced as a complete hardware and software package. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 27 16:56:42 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050427145349.H7641@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, chris wrote: > Regarding the TRS-80. It has no floppy drives. I haven't really looked at > it yet, but I presume it can be connected to a standard tape recorder to > use cassettes (it came with the case pre-markered saying "No floppy > drives, use cassettes"... that will be a different project to scrub that > off). The original TRS-80 cassette interface was often a WORHE (Write Once, Read Hardly Ever). It was not acceptably reliable. > What is the easiest way for me to obtain software and transfer to Getting an "Expansion Interface" and a floppy drive is the EASIEST way. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 27 17:02:40 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:02:40 +0100 Subject: Stuff I want Message-ID: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I do brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. Cable to go between two RL02 drives Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my PDP11) VAXStation SCSI cable (with the funny half-pitch pins) Some kind of CP/M box, with a reasonably well-documented disk controller and console (can be internal, or an external serial terminal - I'm not bothered). Will swap for beer or toys, can collect. Gordon. From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Apr 27 17:05:14 2005 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:05:14 +0100 Subject: Stuff I want Message-ID: <42700C9A.9010505@gjcp.net> Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I do brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. Cable to go between two RL02 drives Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my PDP11) VAXStation SCSI cable (with the funny half-pitch pins) Some kind of CP/M box, with a reasonably well-documented disk controller and console (can be internal, or an external serial terminal - I'm not bothered). Will swap for beer or toys, can collect. Gordon. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:11:19 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:11:19 -0700 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> References: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: Where are you located? I know of a Decwriter III in Astoria, OR that could be gotten cheap but would have to be picked up. Paxton On 4/27/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I > do brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. > > OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. > > Cable to go between two RL02 drives > Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my > PDP11) > VAXStation SCSI cable (with the funny half-pitch pins) > Some kind of CP/M box, with a reasonably well-documented disk controller > and console (can be internal, or an external serial terminal - I'm not > bothered). > > Will swap for beer or toys, can collect. > > Gordon. > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 27 17:12:22 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:12:22 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <200504271705.j3RH5AqL021276@mwave.heeltoe.com><018401c54b4e$1b6eb6a0$3a92a8c0@maggie> <1651.82.152.112.73.1114625894.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <01f101c54b76$2fb1c210$3a92a8c0@maggie> pages 43 and 84 of the UDA50 engineering drawings contain pinouts of the 32 pin connector for the coax SDI cables, for those brave enough to try;) I'm assuming that the "L" sides of the pulse transformers correspond to the coax shield. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/MP01331_UDA50_EngrDrws.pdf regards -h "Witchy" wrote snipped > I don't have pinouts but it should be fairly easy to make something I > would've thought. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 27 17:21:09 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:21:09 +0000 Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: <0IFM00GJUKFMUU48@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFM00GJUKFMUU48@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <1114640469.26733.119.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 17:45 -0400, Allison wrote: > If anything they are both generic S100 crates. Most S100 systems needed at > least two serial ports. One for the console and often if there was a modem > one for that. In my case I used a DEC 100 printer which happens to be a > serial interface rather than parallel. > > Those that did run multiuser often had many more than two ports. I have > a few S100 4 port cards and have seen systems easily capable of running > 8 or more users. I'm pretty sure I saw what looked to be some 4 port cards amongst the stuff we got. > So in most cases S100 implies generic system but little beyond that. > For example for S100 the cpu list included everything up to > and including 386s! Definitely saw some info about 68k boards in the things we grabbed - whether there are any boards to go with that I don't know yet... Ever heard of a box called Pluto? We found one of those - it's an aluminium box with a 5V PSU inside and a board containing an 8088 CPU, ROM, RAM and video. Externally it has 9 pin video and a 15 pin connector. Seperately we have one (possibly two) S100 boards branded as Pluto which presumably allow a host S100 system to communicate with it. Just have no idea what it does though. If it's a coprocessor it seems strange to have video on board, but other than the video there's no other I/O (there is a large IDC connector inside, but it's not brought out to the back of the case in any way and looks unused. Reason it caught my eye is that I used to have one of these Pluto boxes years ago - say to say I only snagged it for the case and scrapped all the guts, so I hope it's not something too desirable these days! cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:22:47 2005 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:22:47 -0700 Subject: Unibus card question and offer In-Reply-To: <0IFM00GJUKFMUU48@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0IFM00GJUKFMUU48@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: I have been going through a box of Unibus stuff I am starting to put up on ebay. Inside were a couple of cards that I thought the group would be interested in. One is a Western Numerical TC131 Tape controller. I think it is a paper tape controller like the TC130 mentioned on one the DEC card lists but I am not sure. Will it control a punch besides a reader? The other was a M8267, FP11-A 11/34A floating point processor in good condition. Open to offers. Will have pictures soon if interested. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Apr 27 17:25:34 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:25:34 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive Message-ID: <0IFM0027IMAJS268@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: TRS-80 without floppy drive > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:56:42 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >The original TRS-80 cassette interface was often a WORHE (Write Once, Read >Hardly Ever). It was not acceptably reliable. > It was the only casette interface. There was a mod for the Level-II that greatly improved read reliability. Level-1 machine used half the data rate and were decent. Myself I modded one trs-80 I have by removing most of the casette input opamp crap, it worked notably better! Allison From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Apr 27 17:28:53 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:28:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 6802 disassembler In-Reply-To: <426FDDDA.D6CF68D6@rain.org> References: <426FDDDA.D6CF68D6@rain.org> Message-ID: <200504272230.SAA18904@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Can someone recommend a freeware 6802 disassembler. Well, I have a multi-machine disassembler that supports a half-dozen CPUs now. The 6800 is not one of them, but it would be fairly easy to add. If anyone can send me a sufficiently precise description of the 6800 instruction set, I'll be happy to write the necessary code. ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/disas/src for those interested. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Apr 27 17:34:59 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:34:59 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <42700C9A.9010505@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <200504272235.j3RMZCYw014607@dewey.classiccmp.org> OK, I'm in... I suppose that the top of my list is a DEC GT-40. I really want to play Lunar Lander and watch the weight of my lander go up by .25 lbs after I visit the McDonald's on the moon. :-) If anyone has a PDP-11/60 cluttering up their office, I'd happily give it a good home. I'd also like to get my hands on a Heathkit analog computer. Several years ago, I passed up an EC-1 at a local auction and have been kicking myself ever since. I'm still trying to talk my cousin's husband out of the Altair 8800 he built, but haven't had much luck yet. An iCom Attache would be nice, as would a Wang 2200. I would also someday like to get an Ampere, an APL-based laptop. I have some trade bait, particularly an IBM 1130 ripe for restoration, most of a DEC Industrial-8, a BASIC/APL IBM 5120, and a PDP-11/45. I'm still planning to get the 11/45 running again some day, but if the right offer were to come along... -- Tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Apr 27 17:39:53 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:39:53 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <01f101c54b76$2fb1c210$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <200504272240.j3RMe2Ia014640@dewey.classiccmp.org> > pages 43 and 84 of the UDA50 engineering drawings contain > pinouts of the 32 pin connector for the coax SDI cables, for > those brave enough to > try;) > I'm assuming that the "L" sides of the pulse transformers > correspond to the coax shield. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/MP01331_UDA50_EngrDrws.pdf Page 43 is the important one since it details the connector, but AFAIK it's not coax, it's a ribbon cable, though I guess the principle is the same. You could get a correct result using chopped up IDE cables perhaps...... cheers a From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 27 17:42:01 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 15:42:01 -0700 Subject: S100 Haul Message-ID: <42701539.1F4F67F@rain.org> > I think we've already got 5 Horizons, so along with those ones and the > three on the way that'll 27 of the buggers. Quite obviously, we are not > going to be holding on to that many! :) > > Shame a few of them have honking great red reset switches mounted in the > front :-( AFAIK, that was a standard mod, at least for anyone doing any development work. I remember working on a clients machine that still had the reset switch in the back ... what a pain!!! From fryers at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 18:36:20 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:36:20 +0000 Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> Message-ID: All, On 4/27/05, Kevin Handy wrote: [chomp] > Note that you can now buy solid state phase converters. > > I have a brother that switched to one in his wood-shop, and > it has many advantages: More efficient (cheaper to run); > more motors work with it; more power is available on > created phases; quieter; etc. > > It works much better than the rotery ones he used to > use; which were designed as phase converters, not just > some large three pase motors; and his equipment > is much happier, too. All the solid state phase converters I have come across use a three phase H bridge to generate three phases from a common intermediate DC rail. The incoming voltage is converted to DC, switched, PWM synthesising a sinusoidal at the required frequency. The PWM works pretty well for induction motors. I would expect big iron to have some issues. Depending on how the three phases are used for the big iron, it may be possible for all three phases to be wired the same. That is electrically connect all three phases together, to a single phase supply. This can only be done if each phase is used independently of the others (separate transformers/SMPS). If there is anything in the machine that wants all three phases - find a nice clean sinusoidal source. As a couple of characters of warning, only think about running the three phase machine from a single phase if you understand 3 phase systems. Things have the potential to go bang (and probably will) if you get it wrong. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 17:46:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:46:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050426212833.0163f5c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Apr 26, 5 09:28:33 pm Message-ID: > OTOH separating it and spreading the parts out might allow SEVERAL Novas > to be made operational again instead of just adding one more (non-working?) > to the number of Novas out there. AND before anybody spouts off that the This is clearly directed at me... > owners of the broken Novas should fix their problems at the component level > and not use parts from another one, I'll point out that several of them > have INCOMPLETE Novas and need the boards, PSU, cables etc to even attempt > to fix their machines. I have never had a problem with saving and/or collecting spare boards. I do it all the time. I/O boards in particular are desirable because you can add extra serial ports, disks, etc to an existing machine. I have no problem with spare CPU boards either (I've got a complete set of spares for my P851 and P854 machines, they were given to me with the machines... for example). I don't even really object to swaping boards as maenas of _repair_ once the fault has been definitely located, although I rarely do that. What I do object to, and continue to object to, is swapping boards essentially at random as a method of fault-finding. It's caused me far too many problems... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 18:15:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:15:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Apr 27, 5 09:48:58 am Message-ID: > > My wife has declared that I must remove all my toys from the living room > floor. She is tired of it looking like an "electronics graveyard" as she Might I suggest a good divorce lawyer :-) > Regarding the TRS-80. It has no floppy drives. I haven't really looked at > it yet, but I presume it can be connected to a standard tape recorder to You don;'t specify which model... With no internal drives it can't be a 2, 12, or 16 (the business machines with 8" drives). A Model 1 has a cassette DIN socket on the back of the keyboard unit, alongside the PSU and monitor DIN connectors. A Model 3 or Model 4 has a cassette DIN socket on the back, next to the mains connector. A CoCo has a cassette DIN socket on the back too. All machines have the same pinout and use the same cable (It's the same as the IBM PC too!). Yo ucan use just about any standard cassette recorder. Let me know if you need the pinout of the connector. > cassette. However, I do have Windows and Mac setups that I can capture an > audio stream to cassette if there is some repository of WAV files or > similar archives of software. I believe people have made sound files from the cassettes, which can then be re-recorded onto cassettes, or directly loaded into the machine. Not having got a soundcard, I've never looked into this. All my TRS-80s have diskl drvies and RS232 ports anyway... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 18:20:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:20:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: <200504271755.SAA08260@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Apr 27, 5 06:55:22 pm Message-ID: > (I must get round to fixing my TRS-80, last time I plugged it in it > let the magic smoke out... :-( ) One time when I powered up my Model 4, I got the unmistakable smell of burning tantalum capacitor, and magic smoke came out. The darn thing continued to boot and has worked fine ever since. I assume a decoupling tant decided to go short-circuit, but I've not got round to pulling the case to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 17:56:46 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:56:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Apr 26, 5 10:19:27 pm Message-ID: > People here play with power in the form of higher voltages, also in > the form of high energy. Some of those computer supplies designed > to pump out dozens to sometimes hundres of amps of power posess > the capability to melt off a ring (and the encircled finger), watch Good point... Classic computer PSUs will often supply over 100A on the 5V line (that's only 500W, after all), and that is enough to melt jewellery, etc. High voltage, high current is, of course, the worst. A place I worked at had a very nice bench PSU that could output 0-300V, 0-10A (no, that's not a typo). It was very useful for sorting out SMPSUs, because you could set the current limiter low enough to prevent major damage if the chopper went short-circuit or whatever. But that PSU had enough power behind it to do serious damage to you if you weren't careful with it. > or cause a splatter of melted metal in the eye. Trust me, I have > been been to 1500volts and back due to fools around me and their > pointing fingers. I've also seen what an 80amp regulated power When working on high voltages, I am torn between working alone (and not having someone to switch the power off if I do something stupid), and having somebody there to turn the power off in an emergency, who is, alas, more than likely to be the cause of said emergency. > I might add that something "grounded" can be more unsafe until your > sure there is NO POTENTIAL differences. I got dinged in NYC one > fine day due to a mere 65vac differential in grounds between the That sounds like about half mains voltage. It wasn't that one of the grounds was disconnected, and you got that voltage from the mains filters of all your hardware acting as capacitive dividers, was it? > 12th and 14th floor. And they couldn't understand why the RS232 > drivers were being fried all over the place. Seems equipment > ground wasn't. > > Electrons are our friends, they have a dark side too. Always play > nice and use proper technique. Failure to do so really can take > the fun out of it. > I've seen the same thing said about fire (a problem if you're stuck in a burning building, a great help when used for heating, cooking, running heat engines, etc), friction (normally regarded as a waste of energy, but without it, screws and nails would fall out, brakes wouldn't work, etc), electrcial resistance (again often thought of as a waste of energy, but without it, you could have no votlage differences, so electronics would be impossbile), etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 18:23:27 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:23:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: <200504271918.j3RJI09L011311@dewey.classiccmp.org> from "Adrian Graham" at Apr 27, 5 08:17:44 pm Message-ID: > That's from our very own Rich Beaudry, who hasn't been seen here for a > while. If I was remotely interested in IBM PC stuff I'd probably have a bid > :) I really don't see the point in something like this. There are many easier and cheaper ways to get 9 off 4164 DRAMs (which IIRC, is all this kit consists of). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 18:28:31 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:28:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: <20050427145349.H7641@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 27, 5 02:56:42 pm Message-ID: > The original TRS-80 cassette interface was often a WORHE (Write Once, Read > Hardly Ever). It was not acceptably reliable. It wasn't the cassette interface that was the problem, it was the cassette recorder that was shipped with the machine (or at least the type that was shipped with my first Model 1). This recorder had the amazing trick of putting glitches on the tape if started or stopped using the remote control socket, even in playback mode (!). Needless to say that was great for ruining tapes! The cure was either to use a properly desigend recorder, or to solder a 10uF capacitor (the right way round) across the erase head (this infernal device used DC erase, BTW). After doing that, I had no problesm with the cassette interface apart from the fact it was painfully slow. I was very pleased when I finally got the EI and disks. My M3 and M4 I bought second-hand, complete with internal drives. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 18:02:48 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> from "Marvin Johnston" at Apr 26, 5 11:02:15 pm Message-ID: [[SA cards] > floppy drives? Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth saving? Ones I would certainly save include : Any original IBM cards, as docuemtned in the Techrefs (I am still dreaming of finding a Professional Graphics Controller...) 'Famous' cards, like the original Hercules graphics card, AST Sixpack, etc Any lab/realtime cards (digital and analogue I/O, etc) Anythign with a user-programmable processor on it (this includes DSP cards, transputer cards, coprocessors, etc) > I am keeping all the disk controller cards, memory expansion cards, and > any specialized cards. Are they any Apple IIx cards worth saving? My For the Apple ][, I'd keep anything apart from the Disk // card (which is very common). Language cards are also pretty easy to find. Lab I/O cards, coproesseors (at least the Z80 and 6809 exist), serial ports (common, but very useful to transfer data to the Apple from a PC) etc are worth saving. > general rule there has been that if I have the docs, they are worth > saving. Depends on how good the docs are :-). The bit of paper you get with no-name PC multi-I/O cards probably doesn't count. Having a real manual with programming details and maybe even a schematic would certainly cause me to save the card (and the manual, of course). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Apr 27 18:32:32 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:32:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: <1114640469.26733.119.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Apr 27, 5 10:21:09 pm Message-ID: > Ever heard of a box called Pluto? We found one of those - it's an Yes!, bnt I know little about it. > aluminium box with a 5V PSU inside and a board containing an 8088 CPU, > ROM, RAM and video. Externally it has 9 pin video and a 15 pin > connector. It's some kind of high-res (for the time) colour video display with some local intellegence. I was give na Sharp MZ80B, with a Pluto graphics box hung off it, I think the Sharp interface card may well have been home-made (there were a couple of homebrew cards in the expansion cage). -tony From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Apr 27 18:38:28 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:38:28 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <200504272240.j3RMe2Ia014640@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <022801c54b82$37159480$3a92a8c0@maggie> nooo.. I do believe those high speed signals wouls need to run on coax for the length they're designed to run - I think it's ribbon/coax -I'm guessing fairly expensive stuff. (I gather this from previous SDI discussion ;) Pinouts help, bit still doesn't tell me it it's a 1:1 to my RA73 drive or if it needs swapping etc :( it's possible for short distance ~50 ohm ribbon cable might work a close enough match to 34 pin flippy ribbon cable sets? might be worth an experment - now to look up pinouts on the RA73 drive ;) everything's transformer isolated, but I'm not sure about mysterious drive drive selects.. cheers h Adrian Graham" wrote > Page 43 is the important one since it details the connector, but AFAIK it's > not coax, it's a ribbon cable, though I guess the principle is the same. You > could get a correct result using chopped up IDE cables perhaps...... > > cheers > > a From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Apr 27 18:48:02 2005 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:48:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [GreenKeys] Up for grabs: (fwd) Message-ID: FYI: respond directly to the original poster if interested... Cheers John ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:21:51 EDT From: Til128 at aol.com To: greenkeys at mailman.qth.net Subject: [GreenKeys] Up for grabs: Hi gang: I have 3 cases of tractor feed fan-fold paper for postage if anyone is interested. This is the 9 1/2 X 11 NOT 8 1/2...cannot be used in TTY printers... Some with 1/2" greenbar, and some plain. If you are interested please contact me off line. If no one wants it, it will go to the landfill. 73, Tom _______________________________________________ GreenKeys mailing list GreenKeys at mailman.qth.net http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 27 19:17:41 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:17:41 -0700 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA Message-ID: <42702BA5.DB9540C7@rain.org> I saw the following notice on the Heath listserver :(. Unless there is more than meets the eye, Agilent does not come out of this looking like a very worthwhile company. ************ Please visit the following site for the letter from Agilent. http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 19:08:03 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:08:03 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <200504272235.j3RMZCYw014607@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <42700C9A.9010505@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050427200803.0115f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:34 PM 4/27/05 -0400, Tony wrote: >OK, I'm in... > >An iCom Attache would be nice, as would a Wang 2200. I would also someday >like to get an Ampere, an APL-based laptop. Tell me more about the Ampere. It sounds interesting. I have an Attache that might be available for the right trade. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 19:11:09 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:11:09 -0400 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: References: <200504271918.j3RJI09L011311@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050427201109.0115b870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:23 AM 4/28/05 +0100, you wrote: >> That's from our very own Rich Beaudry, who hasn't been seen here for a >> while. If I was remotely interested in IBM PC stuff I'd probably have a bid >> :) > >I really don't see the point in something like this. There are many >easier and cheaper ways to get 9 off 4164 DRAMs (which IIRC, is all this >kit consists of). > >-tony There will be somebody on E-bay that will want it! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Apr 27 19:40:58 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:40:58 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: <42702BA5.DB9540C7@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050427204058.01162400@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Agilent (HP) hasn't looked like a worthwhile company for some time! Since they changed their name at least. Joe At 05:17 PM 4/27/05 -0700, you wrote: > >I saw the following notice on the Heath listserver :(. Unless there is >more than meets the eye, Agilent does not come out of this looking like >a very worthwhile company. > >************ > >Please visit the following site for the letter from Agilent. >http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf > From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 27 20:46:04 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:46:04 -0500 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA References: <3.0.6.32.20050427204058.01162400@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <016e01c54b94$0a674430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > Agilent (HP) hasn't looked like a worthwhile company for some time! Since > they changed their name at least. Last time I checked, HP didn't change their name to anything. Agilent was a spinoff from HP. HP is still alive and kicking. Agilent stuff is pretty good from what I've seen. Perhaps you're mistakenly referring to the cheap desktop stuff HP is making in the consumer products division? Regardless... I can definitely see a company protecting their copyright. We as collectors should be first and foremost in honoring those copyrights, or it will be to our detriment. Of course, then we move to working with them to ease up on old gear... but, we should rigorously maintain their copyrights as well. That being said, I'm hard pressed to imagine them complaining about really old manuals for gear they haven't made in decades. But that's a moot point - have to work inside the guidelines of the law. Jay From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 27 20:58:44 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 18:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050427185737.Y16207@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Tony Duell wrote: > > (I must get round to fixing my TRS-80, last time I plugged it in it > > let the magic smoke out... :-( ) > One time when I powered up my Model 4, I got the unmistakable smell of > burning tantalum capacitor, and magic smoke came out. The darn thing > continued to boot and has worked fine ever since. I assume a decoupling > tant decided to go short-circuit, but I've not got round to pulling the > case to check. Are you saying that it is OK to continue running a machine without even checking it out after such a malfunction? From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Apr 27 21:04:43 2005 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:04:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <42700C9A.9010505@gjcp.net> References: <42700C9A.9010505@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I do > brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. > > OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. > > Cable to go between two RL02 drives > Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my > PDP11) > VAXStation SCSI cable (with the funny half-pitch pins) Got those... How much beer? > Some kind of CP/M box, with a reasonably well-documented disk controller and > console (can be internal, or an external serial terminal - I'm not bothered). > > Will swap for beer or toys, can collect. > > Gordon. > Peter Wallace From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Apr 27 21:13:41 2005 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:13:41 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050427200803.0115f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200504280213.j3S2DrJG017828@dewey.classiccmp.org> Joe - According to the Nadeau book, the case for the Ampere WS-1, a Japanese laptop, was designed by the same guy who designed the Datsun 280Z. It was a 68000 VMEBus machine with a built-in microcasette drive. What do you think you might want for the Attache? -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Stuff I want At 06:34 PM 4/27/05 -0400, Tony wrote: >OK, I'm in... > >An iCom Attache would be nice, as would a Wang 2200. I would also someday >like to get an Ampere, an APL-based laptop. Tell me more about the Ampere. It sounds interesting. I have an Attache that might be available for the right trade. Joe From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 27 21:28:51 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:28:51 -0500 Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: References: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20050427212851.40b8904e.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:56:46 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > People here play with power in the form of higher voltages, also in > > the form of high energy. Some of those computer supplies designed > > to pump out dozens to sometimes hundres of amps of power posess > > the capability to melt off a ring (and the encircled finger), watch > > Good point... Classic computer PSUs will often supply over 100A on the > 5V line (that's only 500W, after all), and that is enough to melt > jewellery, etc. > > High voltage, high current is, of course, the worst. A place I worked > at had a very nice bench PSU that could output 0-300V, 0-10A (no, > that's not a typo). It was very useful for sorting out SMPSUs, because > you could set the current limiter low enough to prevent major damage > if the chopper went short-circuit or whatever. But that PSU had enough > power behind it to do serious damage to you if you weren't careful > with it. > A few years back, I had a bench power supply ('constant current/constant voltage' type) that would output 5000 volts at up to a few hundred milliamperes. SCARY POWER SUPPLY. I sold it on eBay, hopefully to somebody who knew what he was doing. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 27 21:33:40 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:33:40 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20050427213340.395c08ec.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:13:08 -0400 "Joe R." wrote: > Original IBM PC cards are probably worth saving since the PC is > starting > to become collectible. > The other reason to keep original IBM PC cards is that the schematics and tech info are published, so they're easy to modify and/or use for special purposes, like the disk conversion devices and functions people are always talking about here. It's pretty easy to make an original IBM Floppy Controller work with anything that the 765 controller will talk to. I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 27 21:36:36 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:36:36 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050427213636.3838a6c8.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 10:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 26 Apr 2005, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I am trying to decide what to do with a bunch of 16-bit ISA > > IDE/Floppy controller, etc. cards. Is there still a use for them, or > > should I just add (most of) them to the (rapidly growing) scrap > > reclaim box? What about 8-bit and/or 16-bit ethernet cards, no-name > > 8-bit serial/parallel cards, older style floppy disk cables that > > still support the 5 1/4" floppy drives? Maybe a better question; are > > they any cards worth saving? I am keeping all the disk controller > > cards, memory expansion cards, and any specialized cards. Are they > > any Apple IIx cards worth saving? My general rule there has been > > that if I have the docs, they are worth saving. > > I keep all "interesting" Apple ][ cards, which is to say anything that > isn't a disk controller or a Super Serial Card (I have tonnes of > those). > > As far as PC stuff, I would keep a few of what you find useful and > scrap the rest. The world will be littered with them for a few more > years so you'll have plenty of time to settle any regrets before they > all disappear. > I felt this way about 8088-era motherboards. So a number of years back I scrapped them. Now, I've found that it's fairly difficult to track down an XT motherboard. It's even starting to be less easy to find common 'baby-AT' 286/386/486 motherboards these days. Most of the stuff has been recycled. The 'junk' now being scrapped in the mainstream is Pentium I stuff. From chenmel at earthlink.net Wed Apr 27 21:39:39 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:39:39 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050427213939.294dd108.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:02:48 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > [[SA cards] > > > floppy drives? Maybe a better question; are they any cards worth > > saving? > > Ones I would certainly save include : > > Any original IBM cards, as docuemtned in the Techrefs (I am still > dreaming of finding a Professional Graphics Controller...) > > 'Famous' cards, like the original Hercules graphics card, AST Sixpack, > etc > > Any lab/realtime cards (digital and analogue I/O, etc) > > Anythign with a user-programmable processor on it (this includes DSP > cards, transputer cards, coprocessors, etc) > > > > I am keeping all the disk controller cards, memory expansion cards, > > and any specialized cards. Are they any Apple IIx cards worth > > saving? My > > For the Apple ][, I'd keep anything apart from the Disk // card (which > is very common). Language cards are also pretty easy to find. > > Lab I/O cards, coproesseors (at least the Z80 and 6809 exist), serial > ports (common, but very useful to transfer data to the Apple from a > PC) etc are worth saving. > > > general rule there has been that if I have the docs, they are worth > > saving. > > Depends on how good the docs are :-). The bit of paper you get with > no-name PC multi-I/O cards probably doesn't count. Having a real > manual with programming details and maybe even a schematic would > certainly cause me to save the card (and the manual, of course). > I can remember when the 8088 clone motherboards all still came with a full schematic. I even still have some of those manuals. It used to be possible to use the schematic from just about ANY clone motherboard to troubleshoot and repair any other, because the 'cloning' was that exact, right down to the 74xx chip level, and often IC part number. It made troubleshooting those motherboards down to the component level pretty easy. They really WERE clones. From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Wed Apr 27 20:40:23 2005 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:40:23 +1100 Subject: Storage, was Re: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: <426FB599.80FA0A98@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20050428124023.00994350@pop-server> At 08:54 AM 4/27/05 -0700, you wrote: > >Ah yes, do you know how to store tighter :)? I've moved out/tossed >perhaps 1000 - 2000 cubic feet of stuff, and can kind of see a >difference. Another thought we've had here is to sell tickets at maybe >$20.00 a pop for people to "tour" certain areas of the house/garage/etc. >We figure the biggest market would be to people whose wives complain >about the amount of stuff *they* have :). Heh, I've lost count of how many guys have brought their wives around to my place to say that at least they're not THAT bad. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 27 21:49:10 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> References: <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> Message-ID: <20050427193112.P16207@shell.lmi.net> Check what FDC chip and or/ additional circuitry is used on the floppy controllers; boards that can handle FM ("Single Density") are handy. Any board that has discrete ICs is a lot more fun to hack than one with VLSI. If you are new to hardware, look at Bruce Eckel's book on parallel port interfacing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Apr 27 21:54:02 2005 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 19:54:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: End of Surplus? In-Reply-To: <1114602377.26716.16.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20050426210813.0163fb40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1114602377.26716.16.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20050427195145.H16207@shell.lmi.net> Sometimes responses on this list seem to be lacking actual experience with the topic; sometimes responses on this list seem to be show extensive familiarity with the topic. From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Apr 27 21:57:27 2005 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 21:57:27 -0500 Subject: LA30 fanfold paper? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.0.20050425210418.02311270@mail.ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20050427215634.023424f8@mail.ubanproductions.com> Does anyone know of a source for LA30 fanfold paper? It seems to be a fairly nonstandard width at about 10" wide including the tractor feed holes. --tom From marvin at rain.org Wed Apr 27 22:06:17 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:06:17 -0700 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing Message-ID: <42705329.1D13BB59@rain.org> Many thanks to those of you who have commented on this thread! I probably have at least a couple dozen IBM PCs, XTs, ATs, Convertibles, Jrs, PS/2s, RT, etc. along with a fairly complete set of IBM technical documentation for them. I've also got quite a few IBM cards and motherboards, so these are not something I am looking to get rid of. Tony mentioned the IBM professional graphics card and monitor, and that is something I would like to get hooked up just to see how it looks. AFAIK though, I only have one PGA monitor and card. > > Original IBM PC cards are probably worth saving since the PC is > > starting > > to become collectible. > > > > The other reason to keep original IBM PC cards is that the schematics > and tech info are published, so they're easy to modify and/or use for > special purposes, like the disk conversion devices and functions people > are always talking about here. It's pretty easy to make an original IBM > Floppy Controller work with anything that the 765 controller will talk > to. > > I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published > hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Apr 27 22:46:12 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:46:12 -0500 Subject: DSD drive (RX02 replacement) ? Message-ID: <004d01c54ba4$d3ea3af0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I thought someone posted to the list recently wanting a DSD drive (RX01/02 replacement) for their PDP11. Whoever it was, please contact me offlist. Jay From vax9000 at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 22:50:34 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:50:34 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> References: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On 4/27/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I > do brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. > > OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. > > Cable to go between two RL02 drives > Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my > PDP11) Where are you? I know two DECwriter II for $10 each if you can pick up. > VAXStation SCSI cable (with the funny half-pitch pins) > Some kind of CP/M box, with a reasonably well-documented disk controller > and console (can be internal, or an external serial terminal - I'm not > bothered). > > Will swap for beer or toys, can collect. > > Gordon. > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 22:52:48 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: <016e01c54b94$0a674430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > Regardless... I can definitely see a company protecting their copyright. We > as collectors should be first and foremost in honoring those copyrights, or > it will be to our detriment. Of course, then we move to working with them to > ease up on old gear... but, we should rigorously maintain their copyrights > as well. That being said, I'm hard pressed to imagine them complaining about > really old manuals for gear they haven't made in decades. But that's a moot > point - have to work inside the guidelines of the law. The letter is pretty suspicious. Two typos and not very "lawerly". Sent by e-mail? Not withstanding the assumption that the BAMA folks have actually replied to the message and confirmed it's real. Does anyone know if this has happened? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Apr 27 22:59:19 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:59:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <20050427213636.3838a6c8.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > > As far as PC stuff, I would keep a few of what you find useful and > > scrap the rest. The world will be littered with them for a few more > > years so you'll have plenty of time to settle any regrets before they > > all disappear. > > > I felt this way about 8088-era motherboards. So a number of years back > I scrapped them. Now, I've found that it's fairly difficult to track > down an XT motherboard. > > It's even starting to be less easy to find common 'baby-AT' 286/386/486 > motherboards these days. Most of the stuff has been recycled. The > 'junk' now being scrapped in the mainstream is Pentium I stuff. I know, I'm, increasingly saving more of this stuff, surprisingly. When you happen to actually need it (rare, but it comes up) you realize it's not so much dead weight after all :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From news at computercollector.com Wed Apr 27 23:05:28 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 00:05:28 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200504280403.j3S43vBW019580@dewey.classiccmp.org> Looks real enough to me. No one ever said lawyers could type. (I sent an earlier reply noting that HP itself is pretty good about acknowledging its roots, despite the shredding machines... But that message is delayed because I accidentally sent it from my Yahoo account.) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: No More HP Manuals on BAMA On Wed, 27 Apr 2005, Jay West wrote: > Regardless... I can definitely see a company protecting their > copyright. We as collectors should be first and foremost in honoring > those copyrights, or it will be to our detriment. Of course, then we > move to working with them to ease up on old gear... but, we should > rigorously maintain their copyrights as well. That being said, I'm > hard pressed to imagine them complaining about really old manuals for > gear they haven't made in decades. But that's a moot point - have to work inside the guidelines of the law. The letter is pretty suspicious. Two typos and not very "lawerly". Sent by e-mail? Not withstanding the assumption that the BAMA folks have actually replied to the message and confirmed it's real. Does anyone know if this has happened? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rick at rickmurphy.net Thu Apr 28 05:23:43 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 06:23:43 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: References: <016e01c54b94$0a674430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050428062023.01e74d28@mail.itm-inst.com> At 11:52 PM 4/27/2005, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >The letter is pretty suspicious. Two typos and not very "lawerly". Sent >by e-mail? Not withstanding the assumption that the BAMA folks have >actually replied to the message and confirmed it's real. Does anyone know >if this has happened? Yes, it has happened - at http://bama.sbc.edu/hp.htm there's a statement that the HP materials have been removed at Agilent's request and that "Conversations are underway which hopefully will result in a return of HP to the BAMA archives." Give them a chance to plead their case for allowing hobby use before getting too critical of Agilent. -Rick From spedraja at ono.com Thu Apr 28 05:26:23 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:26:23 +0200 Subject: Stuff I want Message-ID: <424AAD6400016A7A@resmta04.ono.com> Well, it appears to be a good moment to place my wish-list. For europeans providers mostly, even when I don't dismiss offers from the other side of the Atlantic ;-) My first field of collection is over old unix-ish systems, in particular Sun, AT&T and DEC systems, but I should like to put a hand in other more "exotic" systems, like Masscomp, Sequent's Pentium and 486 systems, Data General, Tandem... The second is about old CP/M systems. One Morrow, Cromenco, or S100 system (capable of use 8", 5"25 and Hard Disk) would be fine. And one Apple II with CP/M board installed (trying to kill two birds with one shot). Not much, isn't so ? The third is about old IBM PC items, mostly peripherals (One Corvus device, for example) that could be used too with the CP/M systems, but software too. I have already over 100 original software packages, but recentrly I've obtained more space to store this items. In the DEC (more or less) side: * One Decwriter, plus cable set * A couple of RL02 units, plus cable set * A couple of Pertec Units, Cipher or TSV05 type * Two 42" Dec racks * One RX02 unit * One MFM HD-FD controller for Qbus * One Teletype * One serial Paper Tape reader-puncher * One Unibus PDP-11 * One PDP/8-E * One Decmate * One GT-40 terminal * One VT52 terminal * Some VT10x terminals, like 103, 125 and so on. In the AT&T side: * 3B2/400 spares (boards) and software. Docs are welcome but I have a lot already. * One 3B1, operative, with lan capabilities, plus software and docs. * One 3B2 "high" (600, 1000, etc) * One AT&T/NCR StarServer In the Sun side: * One Sun1 system * One Sun2 system * Monitors for Sun3 monochrome systems. Eizo Flexscan 6500 perhaps ? * Keyboard/Mouse for Sun3 * Some kind of "High" Sun3 system(s) FInally, I should like to obtain in some moment of my life one HP-1000 or 2100, and one HP-3000 of the old-style. This one was the first computer where I worked. I had the instruction to mount the disk of work and use the Cobol Compiler. Cheers Sergio From spedraja at ono.com Thu Apr 28 05:26:41 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:26:41 +0200 Subject: Apple Pascal Message-ID: <424AAD6400016A7E@resmta04.ono.com> Hello. Can be possible to obtain in some place image disks of the Apple II Pascal or UCSD Pascal por the Apple II ? I'm searching a copy to play a little in the Apple II Oasis Emulator. Thanks in advance Sergio From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 28 06:21:17 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:21:17 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Apr 2005 20:20:22 BST." <200504271920.j3RJKbDx011374@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200504281121.j3SBLHJs005839@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Adrian Graham" wrote: >> >> It's been a few years now, but I'm sure that I've removed the >> metal bulkhead ends so I could got directly from KDA50 ro >> RA7x in a MicroVAX 3900. I'm also sure that the process was >> non-destructive (i.e reversible - undo a few screws and the >> two halves of the bulkhead connector come apart). This is what I've done - just used the red wires to go directly from the controller to the drive. As I said, it's not mechanically sound but it seems to work fine. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 28 06:32:23 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:32:23 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 27 Apr 2005 17:17:41 PDT." <42702BA5.DB9540C7@rain.org> Message-ID: <200504281132.j3SBWNAk006379@mwave.heeltoe.com> Marvin Johnston wrote: > >I saw the following notice on the Heath listserver :(. Unless there is >more than meets the eye, Agilent does not come out of this looking like >a very worthwhile company. > >************ > >Please visit the following site for the letter from Agilent. >http://bama.sbc.edu/images/Letter%204-18-05.pdf I would send email to the ceo of HP and explain why this is (a) bad PR and (b) pointless. I would say there is no real harm being done to HP/Agilent if the products are long dead and unsupported. Who knows, but worth a try. No flames about hp, please. I know first hand how badly they suck now - don't need any reminders. -brad From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 28 06:39:42 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 11:39:42 +0000 Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114688382.28320.34.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 00:32 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Ever heard of a box called Pluto? We found one of those - it's an > > Yes!, bnt I know little about it. > > > aluminium box with a 5V PSU inside and a board containing an 8088 CPU, > > ROM, RAM and video. Externally it has 9 pin video and a 15 pin > > connector. > > It's some kind of high-res (for the time) colour video display with some > local intellegence. I was give na Sharp MZ80B, with a Pluto graphics box > hung off it, I think the Sharp interface card may well have been > home-made (there were a couple of homebrew cards in the expansion cage). Hmm, that's interesting. I wonder if we've managed to come away with any docs / software for it (hopefully, but given the circumstances of the clearance it's quite possible that we haven't). I believe the video chip was a 6845 - which I suppose given the timeframe wouldn't have been in common use at that point. There looked to be quite a bit of RAM on board, and I doubt the 8088 CPU would have been cheap at the time either. I'll be having a good dig through everything on Saturday, so I'll see what I can find... cheers! Jules From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Apr 28 07:03:21 2005 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:03:21 +1200 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA References: Message-ID: <0ba001c54bea$45b7efc0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" -------snip----- > The letter is pretty suspicious. Two typos and not very "lawerly". > Sent > by e-mail? Not withstanding the assumption that the BAMA folks have > actually replied to the message and confirmed it's real. Does > anyone know > if this has happened? Definitely 'for real'. There's been a suggestion Agilent were not happy with the quality of some of the BAMA offerings, quite apart from the copyright issue. They may have felt it reflected badly on them. Could be a linkage there, who knows? There's also a report that a large test equipment manual collection (of old HP stuff) belonging to an Agilent employee has been borrowed to be scanned and pdf files for these manuals will be available from the Agilent website in due course. DaveB, NZ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/2005 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 28 07:14:57 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:14:57 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <200504280213.j3S2DrJG017828@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20050427200803.0115f100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050428081457.01669100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:13 PM 4/27/05 -0400, you wrote: >Joe - > >According to the Nadeau book, the case for the Ampere WS-1, a Japanese >laptop, was designed by the same guy who designed the Datsun 280Z. It was a >68000 VMEBus machine with a built-in microcasette drive. If it's VME based then it must be BIG. > >What do you think you might want for the Attache? It's an Ottrona Attache, not an iCOM. I THINK it works, I haven't used it in some time. I have ONE of the two books for it. Interesting trades considered. Joe > >-- Tony > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Joe R. >Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 8:08 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Stuff I want > >At 06:34 PM 4/27/05 -0400, Tony wrote: >>OK, I'm in... >> >>An iCom Attache would be nice, as would a Wang 2200. I would also someday >>like to get an Ampere, an APL-based laptop. > > > Tell me more about the Ampere. It sounds interesting. I have an Attache >that might be available for the right trade. > > Joe > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 28 07:11:16 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:11:16 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: <016e01c54b94$0a674430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <3.0.6.32.20050427204058.01162400@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050428081116.01667100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:46 PM 4/27/05 -0500, you wrote: >It was written... >> Agilent (HP) hasn't looked like a worthwhile company for some time! Since >> they changed their name at least. > >Last time I checked, HP didn't change their name to anything. Agilent was a >spinoff from HP. The tail spun off the dog! >HP is still alive and kicking. > >Agilent stuff is pretty good from what I've seen. Perhaps you're mistakenly >referring to the cheap desktop stuff HP is making in the consumer products >division? AFIK that's all that HP makes. Aglient now makes test equipment. The consumer grade stuff made by HP is JUNK! Even the test equipment made by Agilent isn't nearly as good as that built by HP only a few years ago. > >Regardless... I can definitely see a company protecting their copyright. I don't disagree. I'm just pointing that HP and Agilent, but particularly the modern HP, aren't the company that HP used to be. Joe We >as collectors should be first and foremost in honoring those copyrights, or >it will be to our detriment. Of course, then we move to working with them to >ease up on old gear... but, we should rigorously maintain their copyrights >as well. That being said, I'm hard pressed to imagine them complaining about >really old manuals for gear they haven't made in decades. But that's a moot >point - have to work inside the guidelines of the law. > >Jay > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Apr 28 07:16:08 2005 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:16:08 -0400 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <20050427213340.395c08ec.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20050428081608.0166aa30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:33 PM 4/27/05 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 08:13:08 -0400 >"Joe R." wrote: > > >> Original IBM PC cards are probably worth saving since the PC is >> starting >> to become collectible. >> > >The other reason to keep original IBM PC cards is that the schematics >and tech info are published, so they're easy to modify and/or use for >special purposes, like the disk conversion devices and functions people >are always talking about here. It's pretty easy to make an original IBM >Floppy Controller work with anything that the 765 controller will talk >to. > >I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published >hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. > You're not, I have one and I strongly suspect Tony does too. Joe > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 28 07:25:11 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:25:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <022801c54b82$37159480$3a92a8c0@maggie> References: <200504272240.j3RMe2Ia014640@dewey.classiccmp.org> <022801c54b82$37159480$3a92a8c0@maggie> Message-ID: <26252.217.196.231.69.1114691111.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > might be worth an experment - now to look up pinouts on the RA73 drive ;) > everything's transformer isolated, but I'm not sure about mysterious drive > drive selects.. I read elsewhere that if you get/make the right interface cable the drive will be happy on its own without any extra settings, plus don't the RAxx drives have manual selects on them anyway? I think without setting anything they'll default to ID 1 port A. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 28 07:27:58 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:27:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050427201109.0115b870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200504271918.j3RJI09L011311@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.32.20050427201109.0115b870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <32185.217.196.231.69.1114691278.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >>I really don't see the point in something like this. There are many >>easier and cheaper ways to get 9 off 4164 DRAMs (which IIRC, is all this >>kit consists of). >> >>-tony > > There will be somebody on E-bay that will want it! > Aye, I'm a collector and museum owner as well as an interested hardware type of bloke so getting an original IBM PC upgrade kit still in its packaging is interesting for me, though the kit would never be used because both of my 5150s are maxed out. -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 28 08:41:37 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:41:37 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <01f101c54b76$2fb1c210$3a92a8c0@maggie> <200504272240.j3RMe2Ia014640@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <17008.59409.48718.605159@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Adrian" == Adrian Graham writes: >> pages 43 and 84 of the UDA50 engineering drawings contain pinouts >> of the 32 pin connector for the coax SDI cables, for those brave >> enough to try;) I'm assuming that the "L" sides of the pulse >> transformers correspond to the coax shield. >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/UDA50/MP01331_UDA50_EngrDrws.pdf Adrian> Page 43 is the important one since it details the connector, Adrian> but AFAIK it's not coax, it's a ribbon cable, though I guess Adrian> the principle is the same. You could get a correct result Adrian> using chopped up IDE cables perhaps...... Ribbon coax, I believe. Not all flat cable is just parallel wires, far from it. Ribbon coax is obtainable but often not easy to work with. But regular coax will work just as well, so long as you keep the lengths matched reasonably well. paul From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Thu Apr 28 08:45:49 2005 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:45:49 -0400 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478080FA947@exchange.olf.com> Apparently, Rich has some other original stuff on ebay as well: Game Controller in orig box: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5190497267 &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Printer Adapter in orig box: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=74946&item=5190496497 &rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW So for the purest, its not too bad... Cheers, Ram (c) 2005 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 28 08:46:22 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:46:22 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> Message-ID: <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: Simon> All, On 4/27/05, Kevin Handy wrote: Simon> [chomp] >> Note that you can now buy solid state phase converters. >> >> I have a brother that switched to one in his wood-shop, and it has >> many advantages: More efficient (cheaper to run); more motors work >> with it; more power is available on created phases; quieter; etc. >> >> It works much better than the rotery ones he used to use; which >> were designed as phase converters, not just some large three pase >> motors; and his equipment is much happier, too. Simon> All the solid state phase converters I have come across use a Simon> three phase H bridge to generate three phases from a common Simon> intermediate DC rail. The incoming voltage is converted to DC, Simon> switched, PWM synthesising a sinusoidal at the required Simon> frequency. Simon> The PWM works pretty well for induction motors. I would expect Simon> big iron to have some issues. Why? I would expect power supplies to be every bit as tolerand of distorted waveforms as motors are, even assuming that these converters produce major distortion. Simon> Depending on how the three phases are used for the big iron, Simon> it may be possible for all three phases to be wired the Simon> same. That is electrically connect all three phases together, Simon> to a single phase supply. This can only be done if each phase Simon> is used independently of the others (separate Simon> transformers/SMPS). If there is anything in the machine that Simon> wants all three phases - find a nice clean sinusoidal source. Motors will -- disk drives for example. The larger disk drives (DEC RP04 class, for example) use three phase motors. They also are picky about the phase order being right, otherwise they spin on the wrong direction which is not a Good Thing. paul From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 28 08:55:01 2005 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:55:01 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <200504272240.j3RMe2Ia014640@dewey.classiccmp.org><022801c54b82$37159480$3a92a8c0@maggie> <26252.217.196.231.69.1114691111.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <02a201c54bf9$dfb777d0$3a92a8c0@maggie> these RA73's are rather nice German made full height 5" SDI 2G drives with a standard drive power connector and ba123/23 sled. http://www.pdp11.co.uk/profiles/by-id/233/ they have two small connectors and one larger one. I suspect the small are SDI, while the larger one is for online. wp switches, ID plugs etc. The small pulse transformers are visible on the right, lead to to the small connectors and match pictures I've seem of "straight" KDA50 cables,( minus the bulkheads.) h "Witchy" wrote > > might be worth an experment - now to look up pinouts on the RA73 drive ;) > > everything's transformer isolated, but I'm not sure about mysterious drive > > drive selects.. > > I read elsewhere that if you get/make the right interface cable the drive > will be happy on its own without any extra settings, plus don't the RAxx > drives have manual selects on them anyway? I think without setting > anything they'll default to ID 1 port A. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From evan947 at yahoo.com Wed Apr 27 21:15:19 2005 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (Evan) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 22:15:19 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: <016e01c54b94$0a674430$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200504280214.j3S2EE8i017834@dewey.classiccmp.org> I've worked quite a bit with HP's media staff and also HP Archives in the past few years, both for my work and my collecting interests. I can attest that they're keenly aware of the importance of their history -- and that was during the Carly era. Things will only get better. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 9:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: No More HP Manuals on BAMA It was written... > Agilent (HP) hasn't looked like a worthwhile company for some time! > Since they changed their name at least. Last time I checked, HP didn't change their name to anything. Agilent was a spinoff from HP. HP is still alive and kicking. Agilent stuff is pretty good from what I've seen. Perhaps you're mistakenly referring to the cheap desktop stuff HP is making in the consumer products division? Regardless... I can definitely see a company protecting their copyright. We as collectors should be first and foremost in honoring those copyrights, or it will be to our detriment. Of course, then we move to working with them to ease up on old gear... but, we should rigorously maintain their copyrights as well. That being said, I'm hard pressed to imagine them complaining about really old manuals for gear they haven't made in decades. But that's a moot point - have to work inside the guidelines of the law. Jay From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Apr 28 02:43:07 2005 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (gordonjcp at gjcp.net) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 08:43:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: References: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4865.195.212.29.179.1114674187.squirrel@195.212.29.179> > On 4/27/05, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I >> do brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. >> >> OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. >> >> Cable to go between two RL02 drives >> Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my >> PDP11) > Where are you? I know two DECwriter II for $10 each if you can pick up. > Bah, should have mentioned, I'm in the UK. Gordon. From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Thu Apr 28 03:43:03 2005 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:43:03 +0100 Subject: NorthStar Advantage diagnostic disk wanted Message-ID: Hi, I recently got my NorthStar Advantage up and working, it had suffered when I first powered it on with a failed tantalum capacitor on a SIO board. I didn't originally spot the soot and debris as the machine has two SIO boards and of course the failed cap was on the hidden board :-) Followed advice on earlier thread 'Smoke on the Horizon', I replaced the 6 tantalums with new ones. I also now have a variac and the PSU was bought up gradually, no problems at all on that side. It now boots into either CP/M or NDOS 1.0.0, and on the latter it has GBASIC which is the extended Basic supporting the wonderful graphics ability of this machine. Unfortunately GBASIC often crashes with a 'RAM Parity Error' message, I guess most of the RAM is OK else it wouldn't boot. The Technical Manual refers to the dealers Diagnostic Diskette, and shows a series of tests to identify faulty RAM chip. I don't wish to try and re-seat all the chips as when I tried this on my Pet it has failed to display anything since (another pending repair project). I've just bought some hard sector floppies, so can send a blank floppy to anyone who can copy the diagnostic disk for me, I would be very grateful. Regards, John From caa007216 at ono.com Thu Apr 28 05:18:41 2005 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:18:41 +0200 Subject: Apple Pascal In-Reply-To: <1114640469.26733.119.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <424AAD6400016A52@resmta04.ono.com> Hello. Can be possible to obtain in some place image disks of the Apple II Pascal or UCSD Pascal por the Apple II ? I'm searching a copy to play a little in the Apple II Oasis Emulator. Thanks in advance Sergio From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 09:38:14 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:38:14 +0800 Subject: DECmate 1 (VT278) docs? Message-ID: Quick one: Anybody has the prints for a DECmate 1 (VT278) or the tech manual? All I have is the architectural guide... /wai-sun From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Apr 28 09:46:44 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:46:44 -0400 Subject: NorthStar Advantage diagnostic disk wanted Message-ID: <0IFN00MB4VPKF3TA@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: NorthStar Advantage diagnostic disk wanted > From: "John" > Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:43:03 +0100 > To: > >Unfortunately GBASIC often crashes with a 'RAM Parity Error' message, I >guess most of the RAM is OK else it wouldn't boot. The Technical Manual >refers to the dealers Diagnostic Diskette, and shows a series of tests to >identify faulty RAM chip. I don't wish to try and re-seat all the chips as >when I tried this on my Pet it has failed to display anything since (another >pending repair project). Ther is an easy way. The NS*dos has a monitor and a memory test. If the memory test isnt there use the monitor. from the monitor Fill ram with a constant of Zeros and display it looking for non zero values. Do it again with ones (FFh) and again display if and look for NON FFh values. It's not exhaustive but I've found all bad ram that way in the past. The alternate is that there isn't that much ram and in mine it's socketed. So shotgunning though not pretty is possible. Allison From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 28 09:48:56 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:48:56 -0500 Subject: Apple Pascal References: <424AAD6400016A7E@resmta04.ono.com> Message-ID: <00d201c54c01$6b23be30$6a3dd7d1@randylaptop> From: "SP" Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 5:26 AM > Hello. > > Can be possible to obtain in some place image disks of the Apple II Pascal > or UCSD Pascal por the Apple II ? I'm searching a copy to play a little in > the Apple II Oasis Emulator. > > Thanks in advance > Sergio ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/utility/programming/apple_pascal/ Just a little while back I also posted asimov's mirrors. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 28 09:52:27 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:52:27 +0000 Subject: S100 haul In-Reply-To: <20050427194058.LEPV5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> References: <20050427194058.LEPV5998.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <1114699947.28320.45.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2005-04-27 at 15:40 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hey Jules - if you want to part with one or two of those Horizons, > it would make the job far faster to have multiple machines running > in parallel... Also, if you are interested in my transfer utilities > and a simulator which can boot up and use the images, I have all > of the material available on my site. I'm sure something useful can be done from this end. I'll do some sort of inventory on Saturday to see what there is. Luckily the chap who owned all of this stuff seemed to be quite good at labelling things, so hopefully all of his disks say exactly what's on them. cheers Jules From vrs at msn.com Thu Apr 28 09:58:41 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 07:58:41 -0700 Subject: DECmate 1 (VT278) docs? References: Message-ID: > Quick one: Anybody has the prints for a DECmate 1 (VT278) or the tech manual? > All I have is the architectural guide... Bitsavers: dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf VT278 Maintenance Drawings (May 1981) dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP01237_278sys_jun81.pdf 278 System Maintenance Drawings (Jun 1981) Vince From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 28 10:23:45 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 10:23:45 -0500 Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <20050427212851.40b8904e.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <20050427212851.40b8904e.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200504281023.46058.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 27 April 2005 21:28, you wrote: > On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 23:56:46 +0100 (BST) > A few years back, I had a bench power supply ('constant > current/constant voltage' type) that would output 5000 volts at up to > a few hundred milliamperes. > > SCARY POWER SUPPLY. Heh. About a year and a half ago, I pulled the transformer out of an NMI power supply. 4kV at 1.5A rating. That sucker could blow fuses really well. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 10:36:25 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:36:25 +0800 Subject: DECmate 1 (VT278) docs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Vince. I must be blind, as the moment I hit the send button I saw the cmos8 subdirectory... > Bitsavers: > dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP00900_VT278_may81.pdf VT278 Maintenance Drawings (May > 1981) > dec/pdp8/cmos8/MP01237_278sys_jun81.pdf 278 System Maintenance Drawings > (Jun 1981) > > Vince > > From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 10:40:00 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:40:00 +0800 Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port Message-ID: I'm trying to use the DECmate/VT278 in terminal emulation mode (VT100) via the serial board/DP278, but at this mode all the docs says that it's only restricted 4800. Has anybody done it or is it possible to up the speed to at least 9600? Is this a hardware or firmware limitation? /wai-sun From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 11:03:53 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:03:53 -0400 Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/28/05, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I'm trying to use the DECmate/VT278 in terminal emulation mode (VT100) > via the serial board/DP278, but at this mode all the docs says that > it's only restricted 4800. > > Has anybody done it or is it possible to up the speed to at least 9600? > Is this a hardware or firmware limitation? Since the 6402 will easily handle speeds over 4800, I _think_ the limitation is how fast the CPU can emulate a VT100, not how fast can the UART accept characters, so given your choices, I'd say it's a firmware limitation. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 11:09:29 2005 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:09:29 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <26252.217.196.231.69.1114691111.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200504272240.j3RMe2Ia014640@dewey.classiccmp.org> <022801c54b82$37159480$3a92a8c0@maggie> <26252.217.196.231.69.1114691111.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/28/05, Witchy wrote: > plus don't the RAxx > drives have manual selects on them anyway? I think without setting > anything they'll default to ID 1 port A. I don't know for certain about the RA73, but my RA70 has a front panel that attaches via a low-pin-count ribbon cable. I am not aware of any local configuration jumpers, but I have to admit that I've never looked. In any case, the drives do come up with sensible defaults if no front panel is attached, but AFAIK, if you want to hook multiple drives up to the same controller, one would need a front panel, at least on the RA7x series. With the other drives that I've worked with, this isn't a problem because the front panels are integral*. -ethan * except for this one RA90 front panel I have in my parts bin that's been attempting to attract a compatble drive for years without success. I'm still "stuck" with RA81s, an RA60, and a couple of RA70s... nothing SDI with massive capacity (massive from a VAX, not PDP-11 standpoint). From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 28 11:24:43 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing Message-ID: <200504281624.JAA10068@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >Check what FDC chip and or/ additional circuitry is used on the floppy >controllers; boards that can handle FM ("Single Density") are handy. > >Any board that has discrete ICs is a lot more fun to hack than one with >VLSI. >If you are new to hardware, look at Bruce Eckel's book on parallel >port interfacing. > Hi When I wanted to add a floppy disk to my NC4000 processor board, I just patched in an old XT floppy controller board. It worked just fine once I realized that the NC4000 could write to it faster than it was ready to respond. Dwight From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 11:46:31 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:46:31 +0800 Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <200504281023.46058.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <20050427212851.40b8904e.chenmel@earthlink.net> <200504281023.46058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 4/28/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Heh. About a year and a half ago, I pulled the transformer out of an > NMI power supply. 4kV at 1.5A rating. > > That sucker could blow fuses really well. ;) Holy moley!! I can imagine... :-) Could you please post some pics of this monster? I haven't seen one rated this much before... /ws From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Thu Apr 28 12:20:22 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:20:22 +0100 Subject: Stuff I want References: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <00e901c54c16$8f949cc0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Gordon, I can do you an RL02 cable, and possibly an LA100 (depends if there are any on the pallet when I go into our disposal store tomorrow! You are in the UK I hope........... Jim. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon JC Pearce" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 11:02 PM Subject: Stuff I want > Haven't got a lot of money to drop on classic computer goodness, but I > do brew a varied and drinkable selection of beers. > > OK - here are some things I'm trying to get hold of. > > Cable to go between two RL02 drives > Serial printer, ideally a DECWriter of some sort ('cos it's to go on my > PDP11) > VAXStation SCSI cable (with the funny half-pitch pins) > Some kind of CP/M box, with a reasonably well-documented disk controller > and console (can be internal, or an external serial terminal - I'm not > bothered). > > Will swap for beer or toys, can collect. > > Gordon. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 - Release Date: 27/04/05 > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 28 12:34:54 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:34:54 +0100 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801c54c18$983feee0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> >> It's even starting to be less easy to find common 'baby-AT' >> 286/386/486 motherboards these days. Most of the stuff has >> been recycled. The 'junk' now being scrapped in the >> mainstream is Pentium I stuff. I expect that the volume of pre-386 showing up is indeed dropping, but are you sure that the decline is actually that steep rather than what there is being swamped by the volume of Pentium systems being scrapped? Given the cost of a new PC these days, justifying a new one to replace a two or three year old P3 is pretty easy. Even in the early Pentium era, prices had dropped so much that there were plenty of them flying around. In the early 1980s, PCs cost a good deal more and did a good deal less, so there were far fewer of them being built in readiness for the great recycler in the sky ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 28 12:50:00 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:50:00 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <200504281121.j3SBLHJs005839@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <000901c54c1a$b636ea00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Brad Parker wrote: > This is what I've done - just used the red wires to go > directly from the controller to the drive. As I said, it's > not mechanically sound but it seems to work fine. The end result of removing the two halves of the metal shell should be to leave and SDI cable with a correct plastic connector on the end - if you ended up with bare wires you undid too much (or I've seriously misrememberd something!). This is true for the KDA50 connector (plastic cover at one end holding four cables ready to insert into the KDA50, the other end being the four individual ends with metal "shrouds" to connect to an internal cab kit. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Apr 28 13:32:12 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:32:12 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000d01c54c20$999b3f80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't know for certain about the RA73, but my RA70 has a > front panel that attaches via a low-pin-count ribbon cable. I > am not aware of any local configuration jumpers, but I have to > admit that I've never looked. In any case, the drives do come > up with sensible defaults if no front panel is attached, but > AFAIK, if you want to hook multiple drives up to the same > controller, one would need a front panel, at least on the RA7x > series. With the other drives that I've worked with, this > isn't a problem because the front panels are integral*. The RA7x series all accept some kind of OCP, but they all (or at least all the ones I have seen) have some way of configuring them without the need for the OCP. I'm pretty sure all the manuals I have scanned are available via Manx and that should cover the RA70,RA72 and RA73. > * except for this one RA90 front panel I have in my parts bin > that's been attempting to attract a compatble drive for years > without success. I'm still "stuck" with RA81s, an RA60, and a > couple of RA70s... nothing SDI with massive capacity (massive > from a VAX, not PDP-11 standpoint). The biggest SDI drive I recall (in capacity) was the RA74 which was a whopping 3.5GB - not a whole lot to shout about! Much lighter than the 1.5GB RA92 though! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 28 14:03:34 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:03:34 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050428081608.0166aa30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <426F2AE7.93737936@rain.org> <3.0.6.32.20050427081308.00942100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050428081608.0166aa30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <42713386.2040708@oldskool.org> Joe R. wrote: >>I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published >>hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. >> > You're not, I have one and I strongly suspect Tony does too. Ah, but how many of you have the same thing for the PCjr? Or am I the only one? I have the tech reference as well as the hardware troubleshooting ref (along with all the hardware loopback dongles for the PCjr). Or is PCjr stuff not collectable in any way? It's more rare than 5150/5160 stuff, to be sure... I feel like I'm the only one with PCjr stuff :-) Along these lines, is there any electronic copy availble of the PC tech ref.? I ask because I am doing some CGA programming and would like to verify the information I have against the official IBM docs. My PCjr tech ref also goes over the Motorola 6845 registers, but it is decidedly PCjr bent (for example, it immediately talkes about how all of the first 128K can be used as display memory, something obviously not true for a real 5150/5160). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 28 14:04:40 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:04:40 -0500 Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: References: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200504281023.46058.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200504281404.40231.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 April 2005 11:46, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > On 4/28/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Heh. About a year and a half ago, I pulled the transformer out of > > an NMI power supply. 4kV at 1.5A rating. > > > > That sucker could blow fuses really well. ;) > > Holy moley!! I can imagine... :-) > Could you please post some pics of this monster? I haven't seen one > rated this much before... Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of it, and I got rid of it a while ago when moving offices. It was a black cube roughly 8" on a side, and weighed in at 80lbs or so. I *do* have a few 60mA, 48kV x-ray transformers laying around though. Those suckers are heavy (>100lbs). I made some nice long plasma streams with two of them hooked up out-of-phase giving me a >120kV peak voltage, before I melted a current-limiting inductor in one. At some point, I need to rewind that coil (it's only got one layer, so it'll be easy to do once i get some magnet wire). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jim.isbell at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 14:19:28 2005 From: jim.isbell at gmail.com (Jim Isbell, W5JAI) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:19:28 -0500 Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <200504281404.40231.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <0IFL00M5V2FZEO81@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> <200504281023.46058.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200504281404.40231.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Not to say "Mine is bigger than yours", BUT mine is bigger. I am working on a linear for my S-Line that has a 12KVA 2A @ 6KV transformer...about 130 lb. I doubt that it will be overloaded with just one 4-1000A to drive. On 4/28/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 28 April 2005 11:46, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > On 4/28/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Heh. About a year and a half ago, I pulled the transformer out of > > > an NMI power supply. 4kV at 1.5A rating. > > > > > > That sucker could blow fuses really well. ;) > > > > Holy moley!! I can imagine... :-) > > Could you please post some pics of this monster? I haven't seen one > > rated this much before... > > Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of it, and I got rid of it a while > ago when moving offices. It was a black cube roughly 8" on a side, and > weighed in at 80lbs or so. > > I *do* have a few 60mA, 48kV x-ray transformers laying around though. > Those suckers are heavy (>100lbs). I made some nice long plasma > streams with two of them hooked up out-of-phase giving me a >120kV peak > voltage, before I melted a current-limiting inductor in one. At some > point, I need to rewind that coil (it's only got one layer, so it'll be > easy to do once i get some magnet wire). > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > -- Jim Isbell "If you are not living on the edge, well then, you are just taking up too much space." W5JAI UltraVan #257 CAL - 27 #221 1970 E-Type 1985 XJS 1982 XJ6 From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Apr 28 14:59:32 2005 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:59:32 -0400 Subject: odd find Message-ID: <200504281559.35617.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Approximately 5' x 1' aluminum sides inside there are 5 sets of 16 fan folded plates, All the connectors come off the one end. pictures here http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000165.JPG http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000166.JPG http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/P1000167.JPG Is it of any use as one peice or should I separate out the fan folded plates? From rickb at bensene.com Thu Apr 28 15:38:22 2005 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:38:22 -0700 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <42700C00.5050405@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20050428203822.D1E9597C30@pail.bensene.com> OK, here's a list of (on topic) things I want: - A good working DEC RL01 Drive - A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives - Someone to fix my somewhat sick RK8E (buss interface is messed up) - A Wang 370 Programming Keyboard (for Wang 300 Calculators) - Rackmount Slides for DEC RL01/RL02 drives (for mounting in a DEC rack) - Four known-good Intel 1101A 256x1 Static RAM chips (to fix a Wang 144 calc) - HP-9100A calculator - A replacment phototransistor array for my DEC PC-08 tape reader/punch. One phototransistor is bad. Have numerous things to trade, too much to list here. Money is short - just got laid off, so I can't offer much in the way of funds. If you have anything Email me, and maybe we can work out some trades. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Apr 28 15:58:56 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:58:56 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:38:22 PDT." <20050428203822.D1E9597C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Rick Bensene" wrote: ... >- A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives Heh. I could use a "0" myself. What does one do when one only has a "1"? it works, but i'd like a 0. can I make one out of something else? -brad ps: anyone ever use a TSZ07 9-track drive? From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 28 16:04:53 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:04:53 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" References: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <002701c54c35$ed06a320$f71b0f14@wcarder1> > >- A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives > > Heh. I could use a "0" myself. > > What does one do when one only has a "1"? > > it works, but i'd like a 0. can I make one out of something else? > > -brad > > ps: anyone ever use a TSZ07 9-track drive? I have a TSZ07, but I haven't tried to use it yet. Does anyone know what operating systems I can use it with on a PC? Ashley From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 28 16:13:32 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:13:32 +0000 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <20050428203822.D1E9597C30@pail.bensene.com> References: <20050428203822.D1E9597C30@pail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <1114722812.28317.83.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 13:38 -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: > OK, here's a list of (on topic) things I want: OK, for the museum (leads on possible sources in the UK very useful too, obviously!): - Cray - one of the circular ones preferably as the public can identify more readily with those. - Thinking Machines CM-2 or CM-5 [1] - Sun 4/330 (or similar) to provide spares to get our RAP 'supercomputer' operational again - Vectrex [2] - ICL 2966 CPU (we have the rest in order to make a complete system) - NeXT Cube or Slab (preferably a Cube but either would be nice) [1] Actually people like to see the big stuff in general, so anything considered from the 50s - early 90s. Lots of flashing lights really draw the crowds though, hence the desire to get a CM-2 or -5! [2] I have a particular fondness for the Vectrex, but again (as we try to be hands-on with as much stuff as possible) I except one would be really popular with the public. Potentially we have a lot of stuff to trade with... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Apr 28 16:21:07 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:21:07 +0000 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1114723267.28320.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 16:58 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > "Rick Bensene" wrote: > ... > >- A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives > > Heh. I could use a "0" myself. > > What does one do when one only has a "1"? Get two '1's and bend them inwards top and bottom, then glue them together? Instant '0'. Sorry :-) Seriously, presumably it all routes to a header on a PCB somewhere, so just disconnecting there and rigging for the right ID is possible. Doesn't look as nice from the outside, but at least it'd work. cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 16:55:45 2005 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:55:45 +0000 Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: All, On 4/28/05, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: [...] > Simon> All the solid state phase converters I have come across use a > Simon> three phase H bridge to generate three phases from a common > Simon> intermediate DC rail. The incoming voltage is converted to DC, > Simon> switched, PWM synthesising a sinusoidal at the required > Simon> frequency. > > Simon> The PWM works pretty well for induction motors. I would expect > Simon> big iron to have some issues. > > Why? I would expect power supplies to be every bit as tolerand of > distorted waveforms as motors are, even assuming that these converters > produce major distortion. Two areas of initial concern. 1) Transformers in linear supplies seem to be very well suited for 50/60Hz. Trying to feed them with a square wave with frequencies of up to 30KHz + would probably not do them a lot of good. They may be able to handle it just fine, but then again they might not. 2) Recovery times for the diodes in the rectifier. I initially though this would be a problem. The datasheet for a 1N4001 specifies capacitance at frequencies of 1MHz. I guess the 30KHz + of a phase converter is well within the stride of rectifier diodes. > Simon> Depending on how the three phases are used for the big iron, > Simon> it may be possible for all three phases to be wired the > Simon> same. That is electrically connect all three phases together, > Simon> to a single phase supply. This can only be done if each phase > Simon> is used independently of the others (separate > Simon> transformers/SMPS). If there is anything in the machine that > Simon> wants all three phases - find a nice clean sinusoidal source. > > Motors will -- disk drives for example. The larger disk drives (DEC > RP04 class, for example) use three phase motors. They also are picky > about the phase order being right, otherwise they spin on the wrong > direction which is not a Good Thing. MMMmmm, out of phase wiring! I have heard of people who keep three phase extension leads wired out of phase to solve these sort of problems. Some machines just take the three phases and split them out to multiple single phase devices. Kind of like having a local three single phase distribution boards at the back of the rack. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Apr 28 16:33:14 2005 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 14:33:14 -0700 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4271569A.A5250064@msm.umr.edu> Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: > > Simon> All, On 4/27/05, Kevin Handy wrote: > > > > Simon> The PWM works pretty well for induction motors. I would expect > Simon> big iron to have some issues. > > Why? I would expect power supplies to be every bit as tolerand of > distorted waveforms as motors are, even assuming that these converters > produce major distortion. > The problem will be that some devices work well if they have a large amount of inductance in their power supplies, such as conventional power supplies will have. If they are switcher power supplies, they tend not to react very nicely to having a solid state inverter feed them. This is the why, and is only answerable on a case by case basis. I didn't see a mention of the most obvious case, and that is not 3 phase, but that a lot of systems took in 208 three phase and did a rotating conversion to 400 hz. > > Simon> Depending on how the three phases are used for the big iron, > Simon> it may be possible for all three phases to be wired the > Simon> same. That is electrically connect all three phases together, > Simon> to a single phase supply. This can only be done if each phase > Simon> is used independently of the others (separate > Simon> transformers/SMPS). If there is anything in the machine that > Simon> wants all three phases - find a nice clean sinusoidal source. > > Motors will -- disk drives for example. The larger disk drives (DEC > RP04 class, for example) use three phase motors. They also are picky > about the phase order being right, otherwise they spin on the wrong > direction which is not a Good Thing. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:25:37 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:25:37 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <000d01c54c20$999b3f80$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200504282225.j3SMPjni030843@dewey.classiccmp.org> > > The biggest SDI drive I recall (in capacity) was the RA74 > which was a whopping 3.5GB - not a whole lot to shout about! > Much lighter than the 1.5GB RA92 though! > > Antonio I thought I was good carrying 4 RA70s upstairs to test :) Mind, combined with the sled they'll fit in there's no way I could manage that on my own - a solid metal enclosure with 4x RA70 plus cabling plus PSU plus cages plus plasticware....kinnell! A From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 17:33:53 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:33:53 +0100 Subject: Vax Media In-Reply-To: <200504271926.j3RJQhOF011465@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <26c11a640504270418778f05b0@mail.gmail.com> <200504271926.j3RJQhOF011465@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <26c11a6405042815332da38110@mail.gmail.com> On 4/27/05, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > Yep, should have, I don't think we stopped getting the > > updates till a > > > bit later than that.....I'll check. > > > > > > cheers > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > Did you find out anymore about this ?. > > Yup, the latest I have down here is Jan 95 so that must've been the year the > CDDS started coming in a folder instead of the separate boxes. My folders > are at home up north in the garage :/ > > > Also are you picking stuff up from me for Fred ? > > Not that I know of, but you're obviously not that far from Bletchley so I'm > sure we can sort something out! > > a > > I'm in Central London, I got an email from Fred saying that you and Gordon where going to the Munich VCF via mine in van there;s not real rush I just wondered if it was still going ahead. Typically that disk 4 is the one with all the compilers on it. I can wait as I have them installed on another machine. Thanks Dan From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Apr 28 17:55:28 2005 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:55:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: Brad Parker "Re: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0"" (Apr 28, 16:58) References: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <10504282355.ZM24904@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Apr 28 2005, 16:58, Brad Parker wrote: > > "Rick Bensene" wrote: > ... > >- A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives > > Heh. I could use a "0" myself. > > What does one do when one only has a "1"? > > it works, but i'd like a 0. can I make one out of something else? Look at the fingers on the "1" plug. The protruding finger on each side has two edges which can be long or short, but one of those is just used to tell the drive there's a valid plug inserted. A matchstick makes an effective substitute :-) A zero has short edges on upper and lower left, short on upper right, intermediate on lower right (that last one is the "valid plug" finger). A one has short edges on upper and lower left, long on upper right, intermediate on lower right. A two has short on upper left, long on lower left, short on upper right, intermediate on lower right. A three has short on upper left, long on lower left, long on upper right, intermediate on lower right. ISTR that when I made my own perspex plugs, before I had real ones (other than a "zero"), I found there was no real difference between "short" and "intermediate" -- "short" doesn't move a contact, "long" or "intermediate" does. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:35:02 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:35:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Apr 28, 5 12:03:53 pm Message-ID: > > Has anybody done it or is it possible to up the speed to at least 9600? > > Is this a hardware or firmware limitation? > > Since the 6402 will easily handle speeds over 4800, I _think_ the > limitation is how fast the CPU can emulate a VT100, not how fast can > the UART accept characters, so given your choices, I'd say it's a > firmware limitation. Not necesarily. The 6402 takes external transmit and receive clocks, at 16 times the desirted baud rate. If the clock generator hardware can't go faster than 16*4800 for some reason, then you won't get more than 4800 baud. This is probalby very easy to modify, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:08:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:08:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRS-80 without floppy drive In-Reply-To: <20050427185737.Y16207@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Apr 27, 5 06:58:44 pm Message-ID: > > One time when I powered up my Model 4, I got the unmistakable smell of > > burning tantalum capacitor, and magic smoke came out. The darn thing > > continued to boot and has worked fine ever since. I assume a decoupling > > tant decided to go short-circuit, but I've not got round to pulling the > > case to check. > > Are you saying that it is OK to continue running a machine without even > checking it out after such a malfunction? Not unless you know what you are doing, and more importantly know you could put right any problems caused by said exploded capacitor. I do know the Model 3 and 4 pretty well (even if I say so myself), I've done component level repair on them, etc. I have all the schematics (including my only reverse-enginnered schematic of the PSU board, which is a lot more accurate than the one in the technical manual, which it seems was also reverse-engineered (based on the lack of identification of some components, lack of transformer winding details, etc)). In other words, if there are subsequent problems, I know what to do. A tantalum bead that exploded like this one did pretty much has to be a supply decoupling capacitor. In any other position, it would be able to pass enough current to blow up like that. Well, maybe if it was on the primary side of the SMPSU, but (a) if one of those shorted most likely that PSU would stop working and (b) from what I remmeber there are no tants on the PSU boards. As the machine continued to boot, it was a fair bet that the capacitor was not shorting out any of the supply lines. It had burnt itself out. By the time I could have turned off the power it would most likely have done that. In which case there's little harm in running the machine with one capacitor effectively missing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:40:26 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:40:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <42713386.2040708@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 28, 5 02:03:34 pm Message-ID: [Techrefs] > > Ah, but how many of you have the same thing for the PCjr? Or am I the only I do. It's a very complete manual, covering the mainboard, PSU, floppy controller, modem, parallel port sidecar, CGA monitor, printers, etc). There are 3 scehamtics 'missing' IMHO, though -- the floppy drive (which is, however, in the normal O&A techref), the PSU brick (which is just a transformer, I know, I built one...) and the keyboard. The IR receiver is there, as is a description of the keyboard protocol. > one? I have the tech reference as well as the hardware troubleshooting ref > (along with all the hardware loopback dongles for the PCjr). I've never really trusted diagnostic programs. Trying to test a non-working device using a non-working device (itself!) doesn't seem to be very reliable. OK, it'll find things like a dead serial port buffer chip, but that's easy to find anyway.... > > Or is PCjr stuff not collectable in any way? It's more rare than 5150/5160 > stuff, to be sure... I feel like I'm the only one with PCjr stuff :-) I have one, with the parallel port sidecar, 64K memory expansion card and internal floppy drive. > Along these lines, is there any electronic copy availble of the PC tech ref.? > I ask because I am doing some CGA programming and would like to verify the > information I have against the official IBM docs. My PCjr tech ref also goes What do you need to know? If it's not too much, I can look it up in my techrefs... -tony -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:42:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:42:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <200504281404.40231.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Apr 28, 5 02:04:40 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday 28 April 2005 11:46, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > On 4/28/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > Heh. About a year and a half ago, I pulled the transformer out of > > > an NMI power supply. 4kV at 1.5A rating. > > > > > > That sucker could blow fuses really well. ;) > > > > Holy moley!! I can imagine... :-) > > Could you please post some pics of this monster? I haven't seen one > > rated this much before... > > Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of it, and I got rid of it a while > ago when moving offices. It was a black cube roughly 8" on a side, and > weighed in at 80lbs or so. Soudns rather small to me. 4kV at 1.5A is 6kVA (!). That means it's going to draw nearly 60A from a 110V supply. Are you sure that's the rating? I have a 6kV 200mA transformer somwhere. That's about a 12 " cube. And it's about 1/5 the power rating of your transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:16:35 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:16:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: <20050427212851.40b8904e.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 27, 5 09:28:51 pm Message-ID: > A few years back, I had a bench power supply ('constant current/constant > voltage' type) that would output 5000 volts at up to a few hundred > milliamperes. The fact that i am here to ramble on about old computers is an indirect result of the quality of Fluke instruments ! My father (a physical chemist) was using an ENT power supply for field emission experiments. This device could provide over 10kV at a fair few 10's of mA -- easily enough to kill you. He managed to grab the output with one hand while his other hand touched an earthed metal sink. Fortunately he had the current limit turned right down, and fortunately the circuit worked correctly. If it hadn't, he wouldn't have been around to create me. And needless to say he never used anything but Fluke PSUs after that... [Yes, OK, there are other good ones with perfectly good current limiting, but if one pparticular brand has saved your life, you stick with it] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:48:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:48:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: <200504282058.j3SKwv13004969@mwave.heeltoe.com> from "Brad Parker" at Apr 28, 5 04:58:56 pm Message-ID: > > > "Rick Bensene" wrote: > ... > >- A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives > > Heh. I could use a "0" myself. > > What does one do when one only has a "1"? > > it works, but i'd like a 0. can I make one out of something else? Well, the RK06/RK07 drives used numbers 0-7. They are the same as the RL series plugs physically, but the RL will ignore the MSB. So you could use a #4 plug from an RK06 or RK07 Alternatively, you could grab the printset and cut/jumper the back of the switch board as appropriate to force it to be drive 0 or whatever. Let me know if you want me to work out just how to do this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:23:40 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:23:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <20050427213340.395c08ec.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 27, 5 09:33:40 pm Message-ID: > The other reason to keep original IBM PC cards is that the schematics > and tech info are published, so they're easy to modify and/or use for Agreed. > special purposes, like the disk conversion devices and functions people > are always talking about here. It's pretty easy to make an original IBM > Floppy Controller work with anything that the 765 controller will talk > to. Although some of the clone cards with a 765 and that little 8 pin data separator chip (9216 IIRC) were also very hackable. > > I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published > hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. Depends on what you mean by 'complete'. I have : PC PC/XT and Portable AT (with the update for the 8MHz board, later BIOS, etc), it ended up in 2 binders) These are the later manuals covering just the mainboard, keyboard, PSU. But then I also have : Options and Adapters (2 volumes) covering the cards, monitors, drives for the PC and XT AT supplement for the O&A manual Scinetific Options and Adapters (GPIB, data aquisition, Professional graphics) EGA Techref PCjr Trechref All the above are real manauls with schematics, BIOS listings, etc in them. PS/2 Hardware Interface Techref -- no scheamtics, no source code, but better than nothing. It was given to me by a firend, so I am not going to complain. I also have the Hardware Maintenance and Service manaul for the AT. It's a boardswapper guid, but it was given to me (I bought the AT Techref second-hand, it came with it). It actually has some useful info on repairing the 5152 printer (== Epson MX80, basically). I don't have all the O&A suplements, and I don't have the XT/286 techref, although that machine is pretty close the AT in hardware. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 17:26:00 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:26:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <20050427213636.3838a6c8.chenmel@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Apr 27, 5 09:36:36 pm Message-ID: > I felt this way about 8088-era motherboards. So a number of years back > I scrapped them. Now, I've found that it's fairly difficult to track > down an XT motherboard. I suspect finding a PC motherboard -- with a cassette port -- is even harder. Why would you want one? Well, the Microprofessor MP1/88 is an 8080-based machine with an IBM PC compattible cassette port (and no other built-in storage). In theory you can cross-develop code on an PC, save it to cassette, and load it in to the Microprofessor. -tony From allain at panix.com Thu Apr 28 18:02:10 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:02:10 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <200504282225.j3SMPjni030843@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >> Much lighter than the 1.5GB RA92 though! > I thought I was good carrying 4 RA70s upstairs to test :) Interestingly (or not), there are enclosures for series 7 drives that hold 4 of them and fit in exactly the same racking as DEC reserved for the 9 series drives. You could mix and match both in the same cabinet with no change in brackets. As discovered with the RA90 fitting in a SF200 rack. DEC must have thought this out pretty well, but Wikipedia actually credits the RA9 series for wrecking the company. John A. ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Equipment_Corporation From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Apr 28 18:03:07 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <1114722812.28317.83.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20050428203822.D1E9597C30@pail.bensene.com> <1114722812.28317.83.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504282306.TAA07379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> OK, here's a list of (on topic) things I want: > OK, for the museum [...] > - Sun 4/330 (or similar) to provide spares to get our RAP > 'supercomputer' operational again I have a complete 4/470, and the VME boards from another 4/470. Is that close enough to be of any use to you? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From richard.beaudry at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 18:07:55 2005 From: richard.beaudry at gmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:07:55 -0400 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: <200504281701.j3SH03l7028166@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200504281701.j3SH03l7028166@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:45:49 -0400 > From: Ram Meenakshisundaram > > Apparently, Rich has some other original stuff on ebay as well: > Yup ... It's me ... I try not to advertise on the list because: 1) It's a bit self-serving ... People know I'm on eBay, so they can check up on me :-) 2) It's PC-related, and even though *most* agree a 5150 is on-topic, it's still a bit Controversial 3) It's eBay ... around here, that's inviting a flamewar... I actually ended the 64KB listing, as I forgot to note some of the packaging was missing. Maybe no big deal to us, but if looking for a pure original package, it can be significant. Anyway, it is me, and thanks to Witchy for noticing, and Ram for the ad! :-) I'm still around, though my collection is less classic. I did however recently acquire some neat Apple IIgs stuff (TransWarp GS, 2 High-Speed SCSI Cards, 2 4MB AppleSauce RAM cards), but I pray to the gods that I could get the luck of Jules and his Horizons, or Dave and his S100 haul :-) YIKES! Although, truth to tell, they are better archivists than I... So, I still lurk, and may yet have another Sping cleaning :-) Later, Rich B. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Apr 28 17:42:39 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 15:42:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phase converters for big iron In-Reply-To: <4271569A.A5250064@msm.umr.edu> References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4271569A.A5250064@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46690.207.145.53.202.1114728159.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Jim wrote: > If they are switcher power supplies, they tend not to react very nicely > to having a solid state inverter feed them. May depend on the switcher. Many of them just rectify the input, so they don't really care what the input frequency or waveform is, so long as it's not too fast for the rectifier. So many 50/60 Hz switchers work fine on DC, 400 Hz, "modified sine wave" 50/60 Hz, or even square wave 50/60 Hz. But the ones that support exactly two voltage ranges (and nothing in the middle) apparently use a voltage doubler, which won't work on DC, and I don't know how it will react to higher frequencies or strange waveforms. I'm not a power supply expert, but I've definitely run some switchers on DC or square wave input without problems. I suppose I'd just recommend not trying it on a rare, irreplaceable supply. Eric From williams.dan at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 18:14:21 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:14:21 +0100 Subject: Vax Media In-Reply-To: <26c11a6405042815332da38110@mail.gmail.com> References: <26c11a640504270418778f05b0@mail.gmail.com> <200504271926.j3RJQhOF011465@dewey.classiccmp.org> <26c11a6405042815332da38110@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <26c11a640504281614542cfcfe@mail.gmail.com> Sorry should of been off list Dan From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Apr 28 18:15:26 2005 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:15:26 -0500 Subject: small valves and RE: OT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200504281815.26559.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 28 April 2005 17:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Thursday 28 April 2005 11:46, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > > On 4/28/05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > > Heh. About a year and a half ago, I pulled the transformer out > > > > of an NMI power supply. 4kV at 1.5A rating. > > > > > > > > That sucker could blow fuses really well. ;) > > > > > > Holy moley!! I can imagine... :-) > > > Could you please post some pics of this monster? I haven't seen > > > one rated this much before... > > > > Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of it, and I got rid of it a > > while ago when moving offices. It was a black cube roughly 8" on a > > side, and weighed in at 80lbs or so. > > Soudns rather small to me. 4kV at 1.5A is 6kVA (!). That means it's > going to draw nearly 60A from a 110V supply. Are you sure that's the > rating? It could be a bit larger than that, but I remember that it was possible for me to carry it, so it couldn't have been much more than 100lbs at most. I vividly remember the rating of 4kV at 1.5A. It originally had a nice 30A Variac sitting in front of it to change its output voltage. It could have been up to about 12" on a side. It's been a while since I've had it. Also, I'm pretty sure it wasn't designed for 100% duty cycle for its application (NM imaging), so it's likely that they used under-sized condutors. IIRC, it was supposed to run off of a 208 or 240V input, not off of 110V, as well. So, we're down to 25-30A input. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Apr 28 18:26:35 2005 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 16:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Apr 28, 5 11:40:26 pm" Message-ID: <200504282326.QAA13862@floodgap.com> > > Or is PCjr stuff not collectable in any way? It's more rare than 5150/5160 > > stuff, to be sure... I feel like I'm the only one with PCjr stuff :-) > > I have one, with the parallel port sidecar, 64K memory expansion card and > internal floppy drive. Mine is exactly the same (64K RAM expander, parallel port sidecar, internal floppy). I also have a few disks of interest, but no tech ref. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm joining my split ends individually." - From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Apr 28 18:31:43 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:31:43 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences Message-ID: <4271725F.9000901@compsys.to> There is currently a discussion (argument?) on vmsnet.pdp-11 in respect of the media required for the TK70 tape drive. Indeed, there is even a question of using the TK70 tape drive on a PDP-11. Has anyone any explicit knowledge and / or experience of a TK70 tape drive on a PDP-11? In respect of the media, does anyone know of any explicit differences between a CompacTape and a CompacTape II? Memorex used to have a page listing all DLT physical and magnetic characteristics. At the time, I was unable to see any differences. Can anyone at classiccmp help answer these questions? My personal experience over the last 15 years using a TK70 on a PDP-11 under RT-11 is that regular TK50 media (CompacTape) have always been successfully used (over 100 TK50 media) with the TK70 tape drive (after the TK50 media are bulk erased if they were ever placed into a TK50 tape drive - if they were completely unused, they worked immediately). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 28 18:40:41 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:40:41 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <17009.29817.319260.614111@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: Simon> All, On 4/28/05, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: Simon> [...] Simon> All the solid state phase converters I have come across use a Simon> three phase H bridge to generate three phases from a common Simon> intermediate DC rail. The incoming voltage is converted to DC, Simon> switched, PWM synthesising a sinusoidal at the required Simon> frequency. >> Simon> The PWM works pretty well for induction motors. I would expect Simon> big iron to have some issues. >> Why? I would expect power supplies to be every bit as tolerand of >> distorted waveforms as motors are, even assuming that these >> converters produce major distortion. Simon> Two areas of initial concern. Simon> 1) Transformers in linear supplies seem to be very well suited Simon> for 50/60Hz. Trying to feed them with a square wave with Simon> frequencies of up to 30KHz + would probably not do them a lot Simon> of good. They may be able to handle it just fine, but then Simon> again they might not. Yes, but do solid state converters put out square waves, or rounded waves? I'd expect the latter, or certainly nothing with realy fast rise times. Don't those things ofen use IGBTs? Those don't switch all that fast as I understand it. In any case, I don't see why a transformer would be any less happy about harmonics than a motor; they are both windings on laminated cores. Also, square waves have theoretical spectra out to infinity, but the amount of energy above a few kHz for a 60 Hz fundamental is very low. I don't have the Fourier transform memorized, so I can't be more specific... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 28 18:43:38 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:43:38 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4271569A.A5250064@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <17009.29994.810612.797639@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "jim" == jim stephens writes: jim> Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Simon" == Simon Fryer writes: >> Simon> All, On 4/27/05, Kevin Handy wrote: >> >> Simon> The PWM works pretty well for induction motors. I would expect Simon> big iron to have some issues. >> Why? I would expect power supplies to be every bit as tolerand of >> distorted waveforms as motors are, even assuming that these >> converters produce major distortion. >> jim> The problem will be that some devices work well if they have a jim> large amount of inductance in their power supplies, such as jim> conventional power supplies will have. jim> If they are switcher power supplies, they tend not to react very jim> nicely to having a solid state inverter feed them. I don't believe that. Without PFC, a switcher begins with a full wave rectifier. If you feed a square wave into that, it will be happier than it was with a sine wave, not less happy. With PFC, the analysis requires more knowledge than I have. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 28 19:01:03 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:01:03 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences References: <4271725F.9000901@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17009.31039.297499.137274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: Jerome> There is currently a discussion (argument?) on vmsnet.pdp-11 Jerome> in respect of the media required for the TK70 tape drive. Jerome> Indeed, there is even a question of using the TK70 tape drive Jerome> on a PDP-11. Jerome> Has anyone any explicit knowledge and / or experience of a Jerome> TK70 tape drive on a PDP-11? I don't know if it was ever sold, but there's code in RSTS V10.1 to recognize a TKQ70. That makes sense; the OS doesn't much care so long as the controller speaks (T)MSCP and isn't too fast to overrun the bus. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Apr 28 19:02:56 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 20:02:56 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron References: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5D9@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> <426FBB58.6050607@srv.net> <17008.59694.450748.547239@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4271569A.A5250064@msm.umr.edu> <46690.207.145.53.202.1114728159.squirrel@207.145.53.202> Message-ID: <17009.31152.276547.656046@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Eric" == Eric Smith writes: Eric> Jim wrote: >> If they are switcher power supplies, they tend not to react very >> nicely to having a solid state inverter feed them. Eric> May depend on the switcher. Many of them just rectify the Eric> input, so they don't really care what the input frequency or Eric> waveform is, so long as it's not too fast for the rectifier. Eric> So many 50/60 Hz switchers work fine on DC, 400 Hz, "modified Eric> sine wave" 50/60 Hz, or even square wave 50/60 Hz. Eric> But the ones that support exactly two voltage ranges (and Eric> nothing in the middle) apparently use a voltage doubler, which Eric> won't work on DC, and I don't know how it will react to higher Eric> frequencies or strange waveforms. Doublers won't work with DC, indeed. But they should work fine on the other waveforms you mentioned. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Apr 28 19:01:57 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:01:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: <10504282355.ZM24904@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Apr 28, 5 11:55:28 pm Message-ID: > ISTR that when I made my own perspex plugs, before I had real ones > (other than a "zero"), I found there was no real difference between > "short" and "intermediate" -- "short" doesn't move a contact, "long" or > "intermediate" does. I believe the 'intermediate' is the edge that operates the plug-inserted contact. The plug is desiged so that the address bit contacts are operated before the plug-detect contact, thus (hopefully) ensuring the former are valvid before the latter opertates. This allows you to swap plugs on a powered-up system without the risk of a drive momentarily getting the wrong address. -tony From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Apr 28 21:07:08 2005 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:07:08 -0500 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:55:28 +0100 (BST) . <10504282355.ZM24904@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20050429020757.HCPG2063.imf18aec.mail.bellsouth.net@p1.stuart.org> In message <10504282355.ZM24904 at mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>, Pete Turnbull writ es: >On Apr 28 2005, 16:58, Brad Parker wrote: >> >> "Rick Bensene" wrote: >> ... >> >> What does one do when one only has a "1"? >> >> it works, but i'd like a 0. can I make one out of something else? > >A zero has short edges on upper and lower left, short on upper right, >intermediate on lower right (that last one is the "valid plug" finger). > >A one has short edges on upper and lower left, long on upper right, >intermediate on lower right. Back years ago when I got my RL01 drive, it came with a 1 but no 0 (or maybe it was 2-1s). I used this observation to file down the long edge on the 1 to make it a 0. Then I gently filed off the digit 1 on the front and replaced it with a 0 printed on a label printer in a similar font. It's not perfect, but it works and looks passible. Brian L. Stuart From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 21:09:13 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:09:13 -0500 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA References: <3.0.6.32.20050427204058.01162400@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20050428081116.01667100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <008901c54c60$70a85aa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Joe wrote... > AFIK that's all that HP makes. Aglient now makes test equipment. The > consumer grade stuff made by HP is JUNK! Even the test equipment made by > Agilent isn't nearly as good as that built by HP only a few years ago. You are only looking at the consumer products division. The HP 9000 stuff is still made, and still the HP quality most people appreciate. Last I checked (a couple years ago), the consumer products division was not frequently the majority of their revenue. It occasionally on a quarterly basis surpassed the mini & other stuff "side of the house"... but it wasn't lik 90% of their revenue. And the higher end intel boxes HP sells, are extremely well made. Jay West From bkotaska at charter.net Thu Apr 28 21:27:34 2005 From: bkotaska at charter.net (Bill Kotaska) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:27:34 -0500 Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting Message-ID: <000c01c54c63$01236fa0$0500a8c0@ath700> I am looking for troubleshooting tips for a 33 teletype. I'm testing in local mode and am getting incorrect characters on (almost) every keypress. The characters will change even with repeated pressings of the same key. I am pretty sure the keyboard is outputting the correct codes. I wiped down the distributor surface (it was pretty grimy) and no change. I tried adjusting the range finder but could never find a point where the characters were consistent. Is it possible to disconnect the motor drive belt and rotate the shaft manually to get a closer look at what is happening mechanically? It's very hard to see what is going on in the selector area with the shaft spinning so fast. By the way, my drive belt is somewhat loose. Is there still a source for these? Or maybe an adjustment for tightening? Thanks, Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Apr 28 21:16:55 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:16:55 -0500 Subject: asimov site? Message-ID: <00f601c54c61$8524d750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... >>> Hello. >>> >>> Can be possible to obtain in some place image disks of the Apple II >>> Pascal >>> or UCSD Pascal por the Apple II ? I'm searching a copy to play a little >>> in >>> the Apple II Oasis Emulator. >>> >>> Thanks in advance >>> Sergio >> >> ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/utility/programming/apple_pascal/ >> >> >> Just a little while back I also posted asimov's mirrors. Does anyone know who runs that ftp site of apple stuff? Jay West From news at computercollector.com Thu Apr 28 21:23:31 2005 From: news at computercollector.com (Computer Collector Newsletter) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:23:31 -0400 Subject: No More HP Manuals on BAMA In-Reply-To: <008901c54c60$70a85aa0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200504290220.j3T2KgLM034609@dewey.classiccmp.org> Storage, too -- they sell lots of expensive storage stuff -- midrange stuff from the Compaq legacy and high-end stuff from Hitachi Data Systems. HP has a huge services business too. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 10:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: No More HP Manuals on BAMA Joe wrote... > AFIK that's all that HP makes. Aglient now makes test equipment. The > consumer grade stuff made by HP is JUNK! Even the test equipment made > by Agilent isn't nearly as good as that built by HP only a few years ago. You are only looking at the consumer products division. The HP 9000 stuff is still made, and still the HP quality most people appreciate. Last I checked (a couple years ago), the consumer products division was not frequently the majority of their revenue. It occasionally on a quarterly basis surpassed the mini & other stuff "side of the house"... but it wasn't lik 90% of their revenue. And the higher end intel boxes HP sells, are extremely well made. Jay West From wacarder at usit.net Thu Apr 28 21:24:36 2005 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:24:36 -0400 Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <000c01c54c63$01236fa0$0500a8c0@ath700> Message-ID: > By the way, my drive belt is somewhat loose. Is there still a source > for these? Or maybe an adjustment for tightening? > > Thanks, > Bill Try Dataterm in Woeburn, Massachusetts. I have a nice ASR-33 teletype that I bought from them last year. They also used to service them and they might have spare parts. Ashley From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Apr 28 21:20:30 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phase converters for big iron Message-ID: <200504290220.TAA10273@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Paul Koning" > > jim> If they are switcher power supplies, they tend not to react very > jim> nicely to having a solid state inverter feed them. > >I don't believe that. > >Without PFC, a switcher begins with a full wave rectifier. If you >feed a square wave into that, it will be happier than it was with a >sine wave, not less happy. > >With PFC, the analysis requires more knowledge than I have. > > paul > Hi For the square wave inverters, they have a flat line square wave of 115V RMS and peak. AC rectification as seen on most switchers use a simple voltage doubler that doubles the peak voltage that is around 160v on a sinewave. This means that if the inverter was intended t run lights, it will have too low a voltage for a switcher input. If it was intended for a switcher input, it would burn the lights at too high of a voltage. Swithcers don't like to run at low voltage. Dwight From cctalk at randy482.com Thu Apr 28 21:28:42 2005 From: cctalk at randy482.com (Randy McLaughlin) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:28:42 -0500 Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting References: <000c01c54c63$01236fa0$0500a8c0@ath700> Message-ID: <017901c54c63$2d047fb0$8e3cd7d1@randylaptop> From: "Bill Kotaska" Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 9:27 PM >I am looking for troubleshooting tips for a 33 teletype. > > I'm testing in local mode and am getting incorrect characters > on (almost) every keypress. The characters will change even > with repeated pressings of the same key. I am pretty sure the > keyboard is outputting the correct codes. > > I wiped down the distributor surface (it was pretty grimy) and no change. > I tried adjusting the range finder but could never find a point where the > characters were consistent. > > Is it possible to disconnect the motor drive belt and rotate the shaft > manually to get a closer look at what is happening mechanically? > It's very hard to see what is going on in the selector area with the > shaft spinning so fast. > > By the way, my drive belt is somewhat loose. Is there still a source > for these? Or maybe an adjustment for tightening? > > Thanks, > Bill I am a member of another list related just to teletypes (greenkeys). You may want to join it and ask for advice there: http://www.rtty.com/greenkeys.htm The 33 is just one model supported on the list. Randy www.s100-manuals.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Apr 28 21:28:04 2005 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 19:28:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20050428081608.0166aa30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > >I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published > >hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. > > You're not, I have one and I strongly suspect Tony does too. I have multiple copies (and for good reason). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Apr 28 22:34:55 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:34:55 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences In-Reply-To: <17009.31039.297499.137274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4271725F.9000901@compsys.to> <17009.31039.297499.137274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4271AB5F.6070206@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >Jerome> Has anyone any explicit knowledge and / or experience of a >Jerome> TK70 tape drive on a PDP-11? > >I don't know if it was ever sold, but there's code in RSTS V10.1 to >recognize a TKQ70. That makes sense; the OS doesn't much care so long >as the controller speaks (T)MSCP and isn't too fast to overrun the >bus. > > Jerome Fine replies: I wonder if that was done to help avoid the problems with the TK50 drive? At one point, I heard that the TQK70 was developed to be used with the TK50 in order to correct some of the problems that the TK50 drive exhibits with the TQK50 controller. During my use of the TK70 drive, I sometimes placed the TK50 on the TQK70 controller and noticed a bit of an improvement with the TK50 drive. I never investigated all of the possible modes of operation, so I can't suggest any specific improvements. As for being faster, the TQK70 / TK70 almost certainly has the ability to buffer records internally and do a read of the next record. I conclude that to be true since I note the following: (a) I often make a backup image of an RT-11 partition which requires a file of 32 MBytes. This takes about 7 minutes on a TK70. (b) I then do a verify of the file against the original RT-11 partition. Using a TK50, it was almost impossible to complete due to the TK50 drive having to rewind all the time when the program (BUP.SAV under RT-11) stopped to read the disk drive and then compare the two sources of data (tape buffer with hard disk buffer). BUT with the TK70, the verify time was also 7 minutes - leading me to assume that while the BUP.SAV program was comparing the data in the two RAM buffers, the TQK70 continued to transfer the bytes from the next tape record (always 8192 bytes) into a hardware buffer within the TQK70 controller. As soon as the BUP.SAV program finished the verify of the current RAM buffers, a read request to the TQK70 that took place sufficiently soon before the end of the tape record on the TK70 media was reached was able to keep the TK70 tape drive in streaming mode and no rewinds were ever (or extremely rarely) required. I fail to understand how else the verify time was also 7 minutes. If anyone else has an alternate explanation, it would be appreciated! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Thu Apr 28 22:38:17 2005 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:38:17 +0800 Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: > Not necesarily. The 6402 takes external transmit and receive clocks, at > 16 times the desirted baud rate. If the clock generator hardware can't go > faster than 16*4800 for some reason, then you won't get more than 4800 > baud. This is probalby very easy to modify, though. Sorry to sound simplistic, but does that mean if I just whack in an appropriate crystal, then I'd magically get 9600? (haven't downloaded the prints yet) Recommendations for an appropriate crystal would be very much appreciated! :-) How much do you think I could up it to? 19k2? /ws From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Apr 28 22:55:19 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:55:19 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4271B027.8070507@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > EGA Techref Was there every a CGA techref? (Most likely not since it's touched on in the PC tech ref, but just curious) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu Apr 28 23:02:23 2005 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:02:23 -0600 Subject: my Data General ( MP/200, not 4/X) and 6095 Disk drive References: Message-ID: <007001c54c70$3fc30240$367cfea9@newhare> The 6095 disk drive is the microNova/microEclipse equivilent of the Nova/Eclipse 6045 disk drive, a 5 MB removable + 5 MB fixed disk drive (internally called the R2D2 project within Data General). They used 12 sectors per track, hard-indexed disk packs (5440-type). No heads/platter need to be removed to clean the heads; the removable heads can be easily cleaned from the disk pack area and the fixed platter heads can be cleaned by removing the blue shroud around the entire drive and approach the bottom heads from the side. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jos Dreesen" To: Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2005 1:31 PM Subject: my Data General ( MP/200, not 4/X) and 6095 Disk drive > Tom Jenning's account of getting his Nova up again made me go back to > my Nova MP/200, a 2901 bitslice based machine. > > With the machine came a DG6095 diskdrive, on which i did not find any > info. > It looks identical, inside and outside, to Tom's 6070 drive. > > Questions : > > - anybody know for sure that the 6095 is just the Euro version > (220V/50HZ) of the US 6070 drive ? > - Anybody has a spare pack ( fat chance, I know ) > - and failing that would RL02 packs fit ( if so, how many sectors ) > - and do I really need to dismantle heads and fixed platter to clean > them ? ( I believe I know the answer to that...) > > Jos Dreesen. > From cctech at retro.co.za Fri Apr 29 00:01:11 2005 From: cctech at retro.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: 29 Apr 2005 07:01:11 +0200 Subject: Apple // - Finally Success!! Message-ID: <20050429050111.8991.qmail@alpha.ccii.co.za> Hi all David Holland said : >Hardcore Computerist(?) once published an article on how to deprotect >Wizardry I. (If anyone happens to have/know of that article, I'd kinda >like to arrange get a copy of it (Xerox/Scans are fine) for nostalgia >sake.. - yes, I did spend many many hours as a teenager putzing w/ >Wizardry I's protection scheme) Me too! (translation: I'd love to see the article, and yes, spent many hours pussling over that tickety-tick-tick thing the head did...) Remember Zardax? W From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 29 00:11:47 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 00:11:47 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4271C213.2010301@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > What do you need to know? If it's not too much, I can look it up in my > techrefs... Well, nothing that probably already hasn't been stated before -- I know the specifications of the Motorola 6845 and how it works, and I know that the tech ref documents each CRTC register, etc... what I'm looking for is stuff that probably isn't in the tech ref, like "what are the invalid settings for each register", etc as implemented on the CGA. I say this because, to prove a point to a few of my colleages, I'm writing a program that does unholy things with CGA that it were probably never intended by the hardware designers. In addition to writing code for "approved" uses like 160x200x16 (composite) and the "third" red-cyan-white palette (disable color burst), I'm trying to see just how much it can do. I've got working code for 160x100x16 (tweaked text), 60Hz full-screen horizontal scrolling via the address CRTC registers, all 16 colors onscreen in all graphics modes, etc. but I recall some rumors about 256-byte-wide modes, undoing the display memory interleaving, and some other stuff that I can't confirm/deny. In other words, stuff that the MC6845 can do but the hardware implementation of CGA can't (or can if doing something "undocumented"!). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Apr 29 03:50:11 2005 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 01:50:11 -0700 Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port References: Message-ID: <4271F544.F1671312@cs.ubc.ca> Datasheets for the Harris version of the UART (HD6402) specify a maximum clock rate of 2 MHz and hence a maximum baud rate of 125 KHz (2000/16). If the current baud rate generator crystal is greater than 16*4800=76.8KHz then it (may) be possible to simply bypass some dividers on the board rather than finding/installing a new crystal. Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > > On 4/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not necesarily. The 6402 takes external transmit and receive clocks, at > > 16 times the desirted baud rate. If the clock generator hardware can't go > > faster than 16*4800 for some reason, then you won't get more than 4800 > > baud. This is probalby very easy to modify, though. > > Sorry to sound simplistic, but does that mean if I just whack in an > appropriate crystal, then I'd magically get 9600? (haven't downloaded > the prints yet) > > Recommendations for an appropriate crystal would be very much appreciated! :-) > How much do you think I could up it to? 19k2? > > /ws From spedraja at ono.com Fri Apr 29 05:52:19 2005 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:52:19 +0200 Subject: Corvus 8" winchester disk drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <424AAD6400017B8C@resmta04.ono.com> Hi everybody. Someone knows of one Corvus 8" winchester disk drive available and operative ? Destination Europe, but I would accept to discuss about the shipment of one of these from the US (for example). About the possible systems where it could be used, I heard about the Apple II and the IBM PC, plus some S-100 systems. One controller plus cable set for one of these systems would be welcome too. Regards Sergio From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 29 05:56:05 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:56:05 +0000 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1114772165.29933.0.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-04-28 at 19:28 -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 28 Apr 2005, Joe R. wrote: > > > >I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published > > >hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. > > > > You're not, I have one and I strongly suspect Tony does too. > > I have multiple copies (and for good reason). You have multiple brains? :-) From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 29 08:31:28 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:31:28 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences References: <4271725F.9000901@compsys.to> <17009.31039.297499.137274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4271AB5F.6070206@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17010.14128.348888.521852@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >> Paul Koning wrote: Jerome> Has anyone any explicit knowledge and / or experience of a Jerome> TK70 tape drive on a PDP-11? >> I don't know if it was ever sold, but there's code in RSTS V10.1 >> to recognize a TKQ70. That makes sense; the OS doesn't much care >> so long as the controller speaks (T)MSCP and isn't too fast to >> overrun the bus. >> >> Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: Jerome> I wonder if that was done to help avoid the problems with the Jerome> TK50 drive? At one point, I heard that the TQK70 was Jerome> developed to be used with the TK50 in order to correct some Jerome> of the problems that the TK50 drive exhibits with the TQK50 Jerome> controller. During my use of the TK70 drive, I sometimes Jerome> placed the TK50 on the TQK70 controller and noticed a bit of Jerome> an improvement with the TK50 drive. I never investigated all Jerome> of the possible modes of operation, so I can't suggest any Jerome> specific improvements. I hadn't heard anything like that, but I'm pretty sure the TK70 arrived after I left the RSTS group, so it's entirely possible that the story you heard is correct and I missed it. Certainly it wouldn't be the first time that a second generation controller did a better job than the first, enough so to be used with the earlier devices too. Jerome> As for being faster, the TQK70 / TK70 almost certainly has Jerome> the ability to buffer records internally and do a read of the Jerome> next record. ... That would make sense. I think a (T)MSCP controller is likely to be buffered anyway. My comment on speed and bus bandwidth relates to continuous running speed -- if a tape when in full speed streaming mode produces more data than the bus can handle, you'll overrun whatever buffers the controller may have (sooner or later) and streaming will stop. So tapes like the TK series require a bus that's comfortably faster than the drive, or their performance will be atrocious. (Your TK50 verify experience is an example -- which shows that performance also critically depends on correctly designed software. It's a bit of a surprise that RT11 would get this wrong, since getting it right is very easy in RT11.) A somewhat different example (not streaming tape, but same sort of issue): the TU78 was never supported on PDP11s because about the only PDP11 with a fast enough I/O bus was the 11/70 massbus. (Then again, that didn't stop the RM03 -- also an 11/70 only device for the same reason.) paul From CPUMECH at aol.com Fri Apr 29 08:33:55 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:33:55 EDT Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting Message-ID: <103.607036f0.2fa391c3@aol.com> Check to see if the armature for the selector magnet is vibrating or "buzzing". If it is, there are 2 computer grade caps in the call control unit that have to be changed. Very common problem on 33's. From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri Apr 29 09:00:34 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:00:34 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences Message-ID: <42723E02.30904@compsys.to> Has anyone any explicit knowledge and / or experience of a TK70 tape drive on a PDP-11? In respect of the media, does anyone know of any explicit differences between a TK50 (CompacTape) and a TK70 (CompacTape II)? Memorex used to have a page listing all DLT physical and magnetic characteristics. At the time, I was unable to see any differences. I did find some data starting with DLT III media, but not for TK50 / TK70: http://www.data-storage.co.uk/tape/quantum/media.htm Can anyone at classiccmp help answer these questions? My personal experience over the last 15 years using a TK70 on a PDP-11 under RT-11 is that regular TK50 media (CompacTape) have always been successfully used (over 100 TK50 media) with the TK70 tape drive (after the TK50 media are bulk erased if they were ever placed into a TK50 tape drive - if they were completely unused, they worked immediately). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From James at jdfogg.com Fri Apr 29 09:10:22 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:10:22 -0400 Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A04594E@sbs.jdfogg.com> > Try Dataterm in Woeburn, Massachusetts. I have a nice ASR-33 > teletype that I bought from them last year. They also used > to service them and they might have spare parts. Woburn, MA. I grew up in the next town and didn't know of them. Do they sell much retro gear? From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 29 09:14:54 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:14:54 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Apr 2005 17:04:53 EDT." <002701c54c35$ed06a320$f71b0f14@wcarder1> Message-ID: <200504291414.j3TEEsgf018158@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Ashley Carder" wrote: > >I have a TSZ07, but I haven't tried to use it yet. Does anyone >know what operating systems I can use it with on a PC? I'm assuming the linux scsi driver will "just work". I may try today. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Apr 29 09:15:58 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:15:58 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 28 Apr 2005 21:13:32 -0000." <1114722812.28317.83.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200504291415.j3TEFwpw018287@mwave.heeltoe.com> Jules Richardson wrote: ... >- Thinking Machines CM-2 or CM-5 [1] huh. Did any CM-2's escape? love to have one of those. -brad From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Fri Apr 29 09:32:48 2005 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:32:48 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences In-Reply-To: <17010.14128.348888.521852@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4271725F.9000901@compsys.to> <17009.31039.297499.137274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4271AB5F.6070206@compsys.to> <17010.14128.348888.521852@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <42724590.9050502@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >Jerome> As for being faster, the TQK70 / TK70 almost certainly has >Jerome> the ability to buffer records internally and do a read of the >Jerome> next record. ... > >That would make sense. I think a (T)MSCP controller is likely to be >buffered anyway. My comment on speed and bus bandwidth relates to >continuous running speed -- if a tape when in full speed streaming >mode produces more data than the bus can handle, you'll overrun >whatever buffers the controller may have (sooner or later) and >streaming will stop. So tapes like the TK series require a bus that's >comfortably faster than the drive, or their performance will be >atrocious. (Your TK50 verify experience is an example -- which shows >that performance also critically depends on correctly designed >software. It's a bit of a surprise that RT11 would get this wrong, >since getting it right is very easy in RT11.) > > Jerome Fine replies: The aspect that I think is not being considered is that the comparison between the ( TQK50 / TK50 ) and the ( TQK70 / TK70 ) was run using the IDENTICAL program (BUP.SAV) running under RT-11. Since the verify program runs efficiently only with the TK70 drive, it seem to be the hardware which makes the difference - or at least the firmware on the TQK70 controller - which is outside the software for both RT-11 and the BUP.SAV application program. Again, I can only conclude that the ( TQK70 / TK70 ) keeps the streaming tape reads of the TK70 in operation by starting the next read of the next record on the tape without being asked to do so by either RT-11 or the BUP.SAV program. If I were to make a guess, it might be possible to verify this by the use of a test program. Perhaps 10 tape records could be read after which the test program would idle until the tape movement of the TK70 stooped. Then the test program would read 1 more tape record and the user could manually observe if there was any tape movement. If YES, especially if there was first a backward motion followed by a forward motion, I would conclude that the TQK70 had scrapped the extra record read - if that was ever the actual situation. BUT, if NO (no additional tape movement), then the TQK70 had obviously stored and saved within a hardware buffer on the TQK70 the eleventh (next) 8192 byte record. Further tests and timing might be able to establish just how long the test program can wait to issue the next read of the next tape record (after the current tape record has been received) before streaming motion is lost on the TK70. The basic timing information is that 32 MBytes are written in about 7 minutes using 8192 byte records - if my math is correct, about 100 records per second. So a delay of even 1 millisecond between each read of each record would quickly become too much of a delay. I am not sure where this paragraph is leading, just a few thoughts being written down at this point. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vrs at msn.com Fri Apr 29 09:43:03 2005 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:43:03 -0700 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" References: Message-ID: From: "Tony Duell" > > "Rick Bensene" wrote: > > ... > > >- A full set of drive select (0-3) plugs for RL01/RL02 drives > > > > Heh. I could use a "0" myself. ... > Alternatively, you could grab the printset and cut/jumper the back of the > switch board as appropriate to force it to be drive 0 or whatever. Let me > know if you want me to work out just how to do this. Since this has come up twice in as many months, I have started some molds for "0" and "1" drive select plugs. We'll see in a few days if I am able to manufacture any. Vince From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Apr 29 09:43:11 2005 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:43:11 +0000 Subject: Stuff I want In-Reply-To: <200504291415.j3TEFwpw018287@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504291415.j3TEFwpw018287@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <1114785791.29918.3.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2005-04-29 at 10:15 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: > ... > >- Thinking Machines CM-2 or CM-5 [1] > > huh. Did any CM-2's escape? > > love to have one of those. I believe a couple of them are in the hnads of list members. It'd be nice to find one to put on public display this side of the pond though! cheers Jules From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 29 09:58:14 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:58:14 -0400 Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port Message-ID: <0IFP00EXVQWD2BU5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Hacking the DECmate serial port > From: Wai-Sun Chia > Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:38:17 +0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: >> Not necesarily. The 6402 takes external transmit and receive clocks, at >> 16 times the desirted baud rate. If the clock generator hardware can't go >> faster than 16*4800 for some reason, then you won't get more than 4800 >> baud. This is probalby very easy to modify, though. > >Sorry to sound simplistic, but does that mean if I just whack in an >appropriate crystal, then I'd magically get 9600? (haven't downloaded >the prints yet) > >Recommendations for an appropriate crystal would be very much appreciated! :-) >How much do you think I could up it to? 19k2? The crystal would be 4x whats used for4800! There are a few yabuts. One the crystal me DIP osc, two the end freq may exceed the divider logics count speed and three the same rock may also supply other logic that may not like being sped up like the cpu itself. Look at the prints first befor you speculate. The UART itself can easily go faster but it's never that easy. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Apr 29 10:03:32 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:03:32 -0400 Subject: TK50 / TK70 Media Differences References: <4271725F.9000901@compsys.to> <17009.31039.297499.137274@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4271AB5F.6070206@compsys.to> <17010.14128.348888.521852@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <42724590.9050502@compsys.to> Message-ID: <17010.19652.41193.749840@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jerome" == Jerome H Fine writes: >> Paul Koning wrote: Jerome> As for being faster, the TQK70 / TK70 almost certainly has Jerome> the ability to buffer records internally and do a read of the Jerome> next record. ... >> That would make sense. I think a (T)MSCP controller is likely to >> be buffered anyway. My comment on speed and bus bandwidth relates >> to continuous running speed -- if a tape when in full speed >> streaming mode produces more data than the bus can handle, you'll >> overrun whatever buffers the controller may have (sooner or later) >> and streaming will stop. So tapes like the TK series require a >> bus that's comfortably faster than the drive, or their performance >> will be atrocious. (Your TK50 verify experience is an example -- >> which shows that performance also critically depends on correctly >> designed software. It's a bit of a surprise that RT11 would get >> this wrong, since getting it right is very easy in RT11.) >> >> Jerome> Jerome Fine replies: Jerome> The aspect that I think is not being considered is that the Jerome> comparison between the ( TQK50 / TK50 ) and the ( TQK70 / Jerome> TK70 ) was run using the IDENTICAL program (BUP.SAV) running Jerome> under RT-11. Jerome> Since the verify program runs efficiently only with the TK70 Jerome> drive, it seem to be the hardware which makes the difference Jerome> - or at least the firmware on the TQK70 controller - which is Jerome> outside the software for both RT-11 and the BUP.SAV Jerome> application program. Again, I can only conclude that the ( Jerome> TQK70 / TK70 ) keeps the streaming tape reads of the TK70 in Jerome> operation by starting the next read of the next record on the Jerome> tape without being asked to do so by either RT-11 or the Jerome> BUP.SAV program. Sure. But the point is that a tape processing program that intends to support streaming tape drives MUST issue several I/Os concurrently. That was my point. Case in point: RSTS BACKUP does both backup and verify without any problem on streaming tape drives, including the TK50. The reason is that it keeps a bunch of writes or reads outstanding, so the controller always has work for the tape and the tape never has to stop. Adding that to RSTS required significant surgery. But RT11 and RSX, being real-time operating systems, always have had async I/O requests (.read and .reada in RT), and by using those it's very easy to keep a tape streaming both in write and in read mode. paul From williams.dan at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 10:31:33 2005 From: williams.dan at gmail.com (Dan Williams) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 16:31:33 +0100 Subject: Der Mouse Message-ID: <26c11a64050429083140c3dfc3@mail.gmail.com> I'm assuming that you are the same one as this : http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/29/149249&tid=185&tid=7 I also assume that it is your web server that is no longer up ;) Dan From CPUMECH at aol.com Fri Apr 29 10:51:43 2005 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 11:51:43 EDT Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting Message-ID: <25.5e862896.2fa3b20f@aol.com> They used to be big in terminals and printers. They still have a lot of spare parts for everything they serviced. Think they have a lot of pc's,xt's,at's,& Teletypes still.You can e-mail them @dataterm.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 29 11:48:39 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting Message-ID: <200504291648.JAA10651@clulw009.amd.com> Hi You can disconnect the motor and run it by hand, turning the shaft. First after powering up, you need to turn the shaft until the clutches release. You need to squeeze the two tabs together that come from each clutch to keep them from dragging when running slow. It is a little hard to do while also holding the shaft. Once you've done it, you'll understand. Anyway, you should be able to walk it through a letter from the keyboard and you can watch to see what isn't working right. Erratic operation is a little tougher to find when running by hand because it tends to work right at the slower speeds. I hope you have a manual. If not download the stuff from the web page. You'll need the manual for adjustments and disassembly. Dwight >From: "Bill Kotaska" > >I am looking for troubleshooting tips for a 33 teletype. > >I'm testing in local mode and am getting incorrect characters >on (almost) every keypress. The characters will change even >with repeated pressings of the same key. I am pretty sure the >keyboard is outputting the correct codes. > >I wiped down the distributor surface (it was pretty grimy) and no change. >I tried adjusting the range finder but could never find a point where the >characters were consistent. > >Is it possible to disconnect the motor drive belt and rotate the shaft >manually to get a closer look at what is happening mechanically? >It's very hard to see what is going on in the selector area with the >shaft spinning so fast. > >By the way, my drive belt is somewhat loose. Is there still a source >for these? Or maybe an adjustment for tightening? > >Thanks, >Bill > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Apr 29 12:24:03 2005 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:24:03 -0400 Subject: S-100 proto boards and wire wrap connectors... Message-ID: I just got some from this guy. He has a few left: http://www.sbszoo.com/ve6sbs/sale/cct-brds.htm Bill From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Fri Apr 29 12:29:39 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:29:39 +0100 Subject: Stuff I want Message-ID: <002301c54ce1$05fdd140$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> If we're all going to do a "wish list", is there anyone in the UK with an un-loved and un-wanted ASR33? Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 12:35:49 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:35:49 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> John Allain wrote: > As discovered with the RA90 fitting in a SF200 rack. > DEC must have thought this out pretty well, but Wikipedia > actually credits the RA9 series for wrecking the company. > ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Equipment_Corporation I don't see the bit where the RA9x is blamed, in fact I don't see the number 9 there at all! If any one product could be blamed, sure the VAX 9000 must be near the top of the heap :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From allain at panix.com Fri Apr 29 12:52:26 2005 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 13:52:26 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions References: <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <054d01c54ce4$3f689480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I don't see the bit where the RA9x is blamed, Don't know why your "9" grep failed..?. site quote: "Code named the RA-90, it was the second largest development project ever undertaken by the company..." "What could have been a huge win for this organization became a great failure." John A. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 29 13:07:18 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:07:18 -0400 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions Message-ID: <0IFP006S1ZNENK10@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions > Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 18:35:49 +0100 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >John Allain wrote: > >> As discovered with the RA90 fitting in a SF200 rack. >> DEC must have thought this out pretty well, but Wikipedia >> actually credits the RA9 series for wrecking the company. > >> ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Equipment_Corporation That wikicrap again. Actually one of the things that did hurt was the RA8x debacle. Good drive but some dunderhead subbed a adhesive and usually within a 100hrs they would headcrash. I believe the FA forcast on that was 101million to return and preplace all the damaged HDA and it was more due to efforts resulting from crahses. That and keeping PNO and ABQ open with staff no work. Allison From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 29 13:25:02 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 19:25:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) In-Reply-To: <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > I don't see the bit where the RA9x is blamed, in fact I don't > see the number 9 there at all! If any one product could be blamed, > sure the VAX 9000 must be near the top of the heap :-) > > Antonio Do you have an idea how many VAX9000s were sold? I remember the mags of the day full of pictures of a thoughtful tech staring at one of the CPU modules, quite possibly thinking 'this costs WAAAAAY too much money' :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From MGemeny at pgcps.org Fri Apr 29 13:35:05 2005 From: MGemeny at pgcps.org (Mike Gemeny) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:35:05 -0400 Subject: phase converters for big iron Message-ID: <510C9812D967984D99CEDB648A43364603B5DB@pgcps2kex6.pgcps.org> A few things I forgot to mention and then a couple of questions. Even though the caps were balanced for the lathe motor, when I start the grinder, the lathe motor gets even quieter. Does this mean that perhaps I should be dropping out the caps once I have a motor running? I don?t think so, because when I balanced the cap bank I was looking for the sweet spot in motor happiness. Perhaps its an indication that the more motors I have running the happier they all are, which has been my assumption. If the latter were the case then a rotary approach would not have much in the way of limits for motors. Also, the impression I have always had from machine shop circles was that commercial rotary phase converters were the same as motors as far as the stator and rotor were concerned. The only differences being that it has no output shaft and would have some other stuff (like my bank of caps) on the outside. But again, I don?t have experience with commercial rotary phase converters ether. If there were differences between the stator and rotor of a commercial rotary phase converter and a three-phase motor, I would love find out what they are. Yes, Kevin is quite correct that solid-state phase converters are available. In fact some will even allow you to control the speed of the motors, although one that elaborate is most likely not what Brian would want. I also agree with Paul that for a conventional power supply ?I would expect power supplies to be every bit as tolerant of distorted waveforms as motors are, even assuming that these converters produce major distortion.? And for switching computer power supplies I would bet that an old 3 phase motor idling in the corner would go a long way toward cleaning up any artifacts in the solid state converter output. I would expect a solid-state approach to handle a wide range of loads, but I don?t have any experience with them. I would also expect a solid-state approach to have a strict upper limit on capacity. Is that the case? Perhaps Kevin could get his brother to share more information with us on his experiences. On phase order I just want to point out what I hope is obvious to everyone but no one has said, if you swap any two phases you have reversed the phase order. Jim brings up 208v, which brings up an issue not yet discussed, that is delta vs. Y. My guess is that motors and generators are generally delta, and that most distribution systems are Y. I can accept being mistaken about this, and a rich discussion is sure to help us all. Most of you must by now be familiar with the distribution systems used in the states as far as one leg being 110v and both legs giving you 220v on single phase service. With that in mind how can we best approximate that in a 3 phase building? We use a Y configuration of second windings on the last set of 3 transformers. If each secondary winding is set for 120v, and we combine 2 windings we don?t get 240v, we get 208v. Given thusly: (120+120)*sin(360/3)=207.85 (or 208) If you wanted 220 or 230 or 240 you use a set of 3 transformers and most likely wire the primaries as Y and the secondaries as delta. Dwight mentioned RMS voltage when referring to a square wave. I was a bit confused by that. My understanding of RMS is that it is a way of expressing the energy under the curve of a sign wave such that the total energy was expressed as that of the peek of a square wave with equivalent energy. If that is the case then RMS and peek for a square wave would be the same but to convert between RMS and peek for a sign wave you multiple or divide by the square root of 2 or 1.414. I?m not trying to criticize Dwight at all here, I suspect he makes a good point, I?m just not sure I fully understood his post. Clarification and other opinions always welcome. Mike. From vax9000 at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 13:52:10 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 14:52:10 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) In-Reply-To: <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On 4/29/05, Witchy wrote: > > > I don't see the bit where the RA9x is blamed, in fact I don't > > see the number 9 there at all! If any one product could be blamed, > > sure the VAX 9000 must be near the top of the heap :-) > > > > Antonio > > Do you have an idea how many VAX9000s were sold? I remember the mags of > the day full of pictures of a thoughtful tech staring at one of the CPU > modules, quite possibly thinking 'this costs WAAAAAY too much money' :) I googled a while ago. People said that 454 were sold. vax, 9000 > > -- > adrian/witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 14:05:39 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 20:05:39 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <054d01c54ce4$3f689480$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <000c01c54cee$7054cbe0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> John Allain wrote: > site quote: > "Code named the RA-90, it was the second largest OK. Now I see it. I never heard the RA90 being touted as a failure or as a revenue sink. The VAX 9000 certainly was ... it (reputedly) sold about 500 units and never came close to recouping its huge development costs. That RA81 was a different story (although a simple cock up rather than an endless sink of money). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Apr 29 14:21:16 2005 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 12:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: phase converters for big iron Message-ID: <200504291921.MAA10744@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Mike Gemeny" > ---snip--- > >Dwight mentioned RMS voltage when referring to a square wave. I was a bit confused by that. My understanding of RMS is that it is a way of expressing the energy under the curve of a sign wave such that the total energy was expressed as that of the peek of a square wave with equivalent energy. If that is the case then RMS and peek for a square wave would be the same but to convert between RMS and peek for a sign wave you multiple or divide by the square root of 2 or 1.414. I???m not trying to criticize Dwight at all here, I suspect he makes a good point, I???m just not sure I fully understood his post. > >Clarification and other opinions always welcome. > >Mike. Hi Mike I'll try to clarify. RMS means that if you feed it into a resistor, it will get as hot. Since a sine wave spends part of its time at lower voltages, it has to have a higher peak voltage to get the resistor as warm as an equivalent DC voltage. Now when we get to a square wave, we see that it has exactly the same voltage as DC for the same RMS level. It is just that it switches polarity, but that doesn't effect the power in the resistor. Now, when looking at what we call 115VAC, we are referring to its RMS level ( equivalent heating of a resistor ). A 115V square wave has a peak voltage of 115V as well as an RMS of 115V. This makes a difference when we use a load such as a rectifier. It only looks at peak. On the sine wave, that was about 160V while the square wave, it is still 115v. So, something like a light bulb will but as bright on the 115V square wave as 115VAC but a power supply with a rectifier will only see about the equivalent of 80VAC RMS sinewave source. This is outside of most switchers operating range. In other words, the square wave source would need to have an output of 160V to be used correctly with power supplies that have input rectifiers. I hope that makes more sense. Dwight From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Apr 29 14:46:35 2005 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 05 19:46:35 GMT Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions Message-ID: <0504291946.AA24068@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Antonio Carlini wrote: > The RA7x series all accept some kind of OCP, but they all > (or at least all the ones I have seen) have some way of > configuring them without the need for the OCP. I'm pretty > sure all the manuals I have scanned are available via Manx and > that should cover the RA70,RA72 and RA73. I use RA72 and RA73 drives in all my Q22-bus MicroVAXen. I house them in BA123 cabinets, mount them on the appropriate sleds, and connect them to the KDA50 with the 17-00951-03 cable. It's a black ribbon coax cable consisting of 4 little strips, one per drive. On one end they are all joined together to plug into the controller, on the other end each strip has the connector that plugs into an RA7x series drive. I believe the same cable was used in BA213s except that the ends plugged into a bulkhead instead of RA7x drives. I do not have the OCP. Each RA7x drive has a block of 3 DIP switches on the side which is normally unused but selects the unit number in the absence of the OCP. > The biggest SDI drive I recall (in capacity) was the RA74 which > was a whopping 3.5GB - not a whole lot to shout about! Are you sure there was an RA74? I thought it only existed in the RF version and the biggest SDI drive was RA73. MS From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Apr 29 16:00:47 2005 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:00:47 +0100 Subject: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions In-Reply-To: <0504291946.AA24068@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <001401c54cfe$8561caf0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Michael Sokolov wrote: > Are you sure there was an RA74? I thought it only existed in > the RF version and the biggest SDI drive was RA73. I have notes that suggest that the RF74, RZ74 and RA74 all existed, but I don't have anything that refers to actual documentation that I can check to actually verify that. I've seen an RA73 and RF73 so I know those exist. The RA74/RF74 were definitely planned and do get mentioned in a few random docs (I'm sure they're both in the OpenVMS SPDs, for example). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Apr 29 17:22:08 2005 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:22:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) In-Reply-To: References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <3059.192.168.0.10.1114813328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> >> Do you have an idea how many VAX9000s were sold? I remember the mags of >> the day full of pictures of a thoughtful tech staring at one of the CPU >> modules, quite possibly thinking 'this costs WAAAAAY too much money' :) > > I googled a while ago. People said that 454 were sold. That's more than I expected actually. I wonder how many are left......and how many ex digits have one in their garage :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 17:18:01 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:18:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <000c01c54c63$01236fa0$0500a8c0@ath700> from "Bill Kotaska" at Apr 28, 5 09:27:34 pm Message-ID: > > I am looking for troubleshooting tips for a 33 teletype. > > I'm testing in local mode and am getting incorrect characters=20 > on (almost) every keypress. The characters will change even=20 > with repeated pressings of the same key. I am pretty sure the=20 > keyboard is outputting the correct codes. I presume you know that the keyboard outputs parallel ASCII, which is serialised by the distributor. In 'line' mode, full duplex. the transmitter (keyboard + distributor) appears to be a normally closed switch between the 2 Tx loop terminals. It should be very easy to turn that into something approximating to RS232 using a couple of 9V batteries and a 1k (or so) resistor : +-------------------+ | | ------- 9V / --- \ 1k | / | \ | | | +------ TxD on Rs232 port | | +-------------------)------ Signal Ground on RS232 port | | | o ------- 9V Tty TX terminals --- o | | +-------------------+ This would at least tell you which side of the Teletype was malfunctioning. [...] > Is it possible to disconnect the motor drive belt and rotate the shaft=20 > manually to get a closer look at what is happening mechanically? I find it easier to electrically stop the motor and turn the machine over using the motor cooling fan (remove the air deflector plate if you find it helps). Some machines have a motor fuse on a bracket at the rear left corner of the typing unit, behined the receiving magnet. If you have that, just take the fues out. Otherwise, you can disconnect the motor leads at the starting relay (if used), or remvoe the pins from the Molex plug, or something like that. > It's very hard to see what is going on in the selector area with the > shaft spinning so fast. > > By the way, my drive belt is somewhat loose. Is there still a source > for these? Or maybe an adjustment for tightening? I probably so still have a spare belt, but I am the wrong side of the Pond... Yes there's an adjustment. Loosen the 4 motor mouting screws (2 on each stap that holds the motor down) and rotate the motor housing to tension the belt. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 17:19:49 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:19:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Hacking the DECmate serial port In-Reply-To: from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Apr 29, 5 11:38:17 am Message-ID: > > On 4/29/05, Tony Duell wrote: > > Not necesarily. The 6402 takes external transmit and receive clocks, at > > 16 times the desirted baud rate. If the clock generator hardware can't go > > faster than 16*4800 for some reason, then you won't get more than 4800 > > baud. This is probalby very easy to modify, though. > > Sorry to sound simplistic, but does that mean if I just whack in an > appropriate crystal, then I'd magically get 9600? (haven't downloaded > the prints yet) I've not looekd at the prints, but I'd be wary of changing a crystal. It may well be used for the CPU clock, or video timing, or something like that. I'd try to figure out the divider chain, and see if you can connect the UART clock pins to something twice as fast (i.e. one binary division stage less). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 17:21:07 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:21:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <4271B027.8070507@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 28, 5 10:55:19 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > EGA Techref > > Was there every a CGA techref? (Most likely not since it's touched on in the > PC tech ref, but just curious) There was no separate TechRef for the CGA card. The hardware is covered in the normal Options and Adapters Techref. It's supported by the standard mainboard BIOS, the source lising of which is in the machine-specific techrefs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Apr 29 17:25:03 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:25:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <4271C213.2010301@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 29, 5 00:11:47 am Message-ID: > Well, nothing that probably already hasn't been stated before -- I know the > specifications of the Motorola 6845 and how it works, and I know that the tech > ref documents each CRTC register, etc... what I'm looking for is stuff that > probably isn't in the tech ref, like "what are the invalid settings for each > register", etc as implemented on the CGA. That is not in the techref :-(. It doesn't even tell you how to get the 160*200 16 colour mode... What, I suspect, you need to do is look at the schematics. Those are in the techref, the board consists of a 6845, 16K DRAMs and a lot of TTL. There's nothing custom (unlike the gate array in the PCjr), so it should be possible to figure it all out. Be warned that, of course, clone cards may not support such tricks. The third pallette does seem to be generally available on clones, though. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 29 22:36:27 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:36:27 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4272FD3B.7080608@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >>Well, nothing that probably already hasn't been stated before -- I know the >>specifications of the Motorola 6845 and how it works, and I know that the tech >>ref documents each CRTC register, etc... what I'm looking for is stuff that >>probably isn't in the tech ref, like "what are the invalid settings for each >>register", etc as implemented on the CGA. > > That is not in the techref :-(. It doesn't even tell you how to get the > 160*200 16 colour mode... Considering that the 160x200 composite color mode was actually documented, that stinks! > What, I suspect, you need to do is look at the schematics. Those are in > the techref, the board consists of a 6845, 16K DRAMs and a lot of TTL. > There's nothing custom (unlike the gate array in the PCjr), so it should > be possible to figure it all out. Okay, looking at MC6845 specs right now... > Be warned that, of course, clone cards may not support such tricks. That's their problem :-) I have a true blue CGA card, so that's what I'm going to hammer on. Thanks for checking for me! -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Apr 29 22:39:55 2005 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 22:39:55 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4272FE0B.1070704@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: > There was no separate TechRef for the CGA card. The hardware is covered > in the normal Options and Adapters Techref. ...which I don't have :) Oh well, hopefully there's electronic copy somewhere. > It's supported by the > standard mainboard BIOS, the source lising of which is in the > machine-specific techrefs. I don't have that either, but I've disassembled my own BIOS and found that it is nearly useless to me -- for example, there are instructions that take longer to execute out of RAM (4 cycles per byte opcode) than ROM (2 cycles) -- so it's not so much of "let's optimize what the BIOS code can do" but rather "I need to come up with a completely different way of doing this". Which is what I expect a lot of people were doing in the '60s and '70s ;-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ From h.otten at chello.nl Thu Apr 28 11:50:20 2005 From: h.otten at chello.nl (Hans Otten) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 18:50:20 +0200 Subject: Apple Pascal Message-ID: <001301c54c12$61088dc0$0a01a8c0@aldipress.nl> Apple Pascal disk images (most versions) can be found on the ftp.apple.asimov.com ftp server. Pascal 1.3 runs fine on the Apple IIGS, withsuppport for 3 1/5 inch disk format. Hans From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sat Apr 30 01:16:29 2005 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:16:29 -0700 Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <000c01c54c63$01236fa0$0500a8c0@ath700> References: <000c01c54c63$01236fa0$0500a8c0@ath700> Message-ID: <200504292316290832.2CA5A810@192.168.42.129> I used to service these machines for Western Union years ago. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 28-Apr-05 at 21:27 Bill Kotaska wrote: >I am looking for troubleshooting tips for a 33 teletype. > >I'm testing in local mode and am getting incorrect characters >on (almost) every keypress. The characters will change even >with repeated pressings of the same key. I am pretty sure the >keyboard is outputting the correct codes. Never assume. One problem area we had was that the stiff spring-contact wires that the keyboard uses to set up the code can get dirty or oxidized where they contact the common busbar. Check this. Also, check the wiring between the keyboard and the distributor plate. >I wiped down the distributor surface (it was pretty grimy) and no change. >I tried adjusting the range finder but could never find a point where the >characters were consistent. Did you change the carbon brushes in the distributor rotor? That was another problem area for us. >Is it possible to disconnect the motor drive belt and rotate the shaft >manually to get a closer look at what is happening mechanically? >It's very hard to see what is going on in the selector area with the >shaft spinning so fast. Absolutely it's possible. That's how we troubleshot a lot of problems. I would, however, strongly recommend that you try to get a service manual for this beast. It came in a three-volume set. Happy tweaking. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 30 04:16:17 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:16:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Der Mouse Message-ID: <200504300923.FAA27813@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [Normally I wouldn't've seen this at all, since my mailer rejects anything sent through gmail's webmail interface, because they don't include the client IP in the headers. Someone who knows that mailed me a copy, so this particular message I saw anyway.] > I'm assuming that you are the same one as this : > http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/29/149249&tid=185&tid=7 Yes, that's me. > I also assume that it is your web server that is no longer up ;) I don't have a webserver, actually. My FTP server did get rather slashdotted, not surprisingly (note that the data for 04-30 is for only the day so far): % cat OLD/xferlog/000 xferlog | colrm 7 | uniq -c 29 Apr 18 18 Apr 22 26 Apr 24 586 Apr 25 584 Apr 27 34096 Apr 28 216302 Apr 29 42379 Apr 30 % Day boundaries in those logs are based on UTC, not my local time. xferlog is up to some 20.3MB, and I'm hoping I've weathered the worst of the storm. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Apr 30 06:14:55 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:14:55 -0400 Subject: Stuff I want - all I want is a "0" In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 29 Apr 2005 10:14:54 EDT." <200504291414.j3TEEsgf018158@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200504301114.j3UBEtUU015979@mwave.heeltoe.com> Brad Parker wrote: > >"Ashley Carder" wrote: >> >>I have a TSZ07, but I haven't tried to use it yet. Does anyone >>know what operating systems I can use it with on a PC? > >I'm assuming the linux scsi driver will "just work". I may try today. I tried this (responding to my own post), and it did "just work". The linux st driver saw the tape drive and I was able to use several archiving programs to read tapes. Worked fine with linux. I don't know about DOS software, however, sorry. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Apr 30 06:29:32 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:29:32 -0400 Subject: Der Mouse In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 Apr 2005 05:16:17 EDT." <200504300923.FAA27813@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200504301129.j3UBTWHX016577@mwave.heeltoe.com> der Mouse wrote: > >> http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/29/149249&tid=185&tid=7 > >Yes, that's me. Is there anything that describes "timer sockets" (PF_TIMER). I've never seen these before and was wondering what problem they solved. (i can imagine, having battled with 'select' over the years) nice work, btw. looks interesting. -brad From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Apr 30 09:15:48 2005 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:15:48 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) In-Reply-To: <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <42739314.nail99G13SNKE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> >> [ RA90 destroying DEC ] It may have been late, but DEC really was a leader in disk and tape storage in the early 90's, thanks largely to the technology they developed for the RA9x. They got out of the business (selling their storage tech stuff to Quantum, right?) just before it got commoditized to the point where it became uninteresting (and possibly too-profit- thin). DLT tape technology of the time is nothing to sneeze at either, and it made DEC lots of money. > Do you have an idea how man VAX 9000s were wold? I would hazard a guess of a few dozen to low hundreds. I'm hoping I'm dramatically wrong and will get corrected! Tim. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Apr 30 10:09:30 2005 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 10:09:30 -0500 Subject: Cromemco boot disk maker & images are available In-Reply-To: <20050416201638.TRNF20276.berlinr.sprint.ca@smtp.sprint.ca> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20050430100843.03c79770@cirithi> Thanks a bunch. I have been really busy the past couple of weeks, but hope to fire up my Z-2 and give this a try over the next week or two. Jay Jaeger At 04:16 PM 4/16/2005 -0400, Dave Dunfield wrote: >Hi Guys, > >I've just posted my utility which allows you to make Cromemco BOOT disk >via a serial cable and RDOS to my site: > > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > >Go to the very bottom of the main page, and select "disks and images", >the utility is called RT050410.ZIP (I'll think of a better name later). > >I've also posted CROMDISK.ZIP which contains: > > CDOS disk configured for dual 5.25" drives > (It's easy to make an 8" disk from this) > Cromix in both 5.25" and 8" formats. > >Please refer to the RT.TXT file enclosed for information on how it >all works. > >NOTE: So far this has been tested and found to work on only my one >Cromemco system, which is a System-3 with ZPU, 256KZ and 16FDC (plus >a bunch of Tuarts, PRI and WDI boards which don't matter for this). >This machine has dual Tandon 8" drives, and I've got a pair of Teac >5.25" drive attached externally ... > >The RDOS on the 16FDC is version 2.52 ... it is possible/likely that >I have done things which may not be compatible with other versions >of RDOS, please report your findings to me. > >I'm supposed to be picking up two more Cromemco systems next week, >one of which I know has a 4FDC (I think the other is another 16FDC), >so I should be able to verify/fix operation with the 4FDC shortly. > >If anyone happens to have a spare 64FDC, I would love to have one >available so that I can get it working with the full set. > >Regards, >Dave > >PS: Mike S. reports that the CDOS/INIT problem with 32k occurs only >when you are running it in 64k - on a true 32k only system, he says >it works OK - if you have only 32k, you may be able to skip the >intermediate disk - hopefully we can dig up a version of CDOS & INIT >which will resolve this little oddity. >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html --- Jay R. Jaeger The Computer Collection cube1 at charter.net From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 30 11:13:32 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:32 -0500 Subject: New Books for for Sellam's Database Message-ID: <003d01c54d9f$8f5b47b0$34406b43@66067007> Yesterday DHL dropped off three more cases of books and in one of the boxes were these two books which I found to be great reads and great pictures of classic systems. An Introduction To Microcomputers Volume 0 The Beginner's Book by Adam Osborne ISBN 0-931988-26-8 COMPUTERS by William R. Corliss catalog card number 73-600074 written in 1973 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 30 12:14:38 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:14:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Der Mouse In-Reply-To: <200504301129.j3UBTWHX016577@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504301129.j3UBTWHX016577@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200504301717.NAA29868@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/29/149249&tid=185&tid=7 >> Yes, that's me. > Is there anything that describes "timer sockets" (PF_TIMER). I've > never seen these before and was wondering what problem they solved. Briefly, they provide a file-descriptor interface to the timer facilities underlying setitimer(ITIMER_REAL) and SIGALRM. On recent NetBSD, I think kqueue may be able to be substitute for them, but I don't know it well enough to be sure. (Also, I did AF_TIMER long before kqueue came in, and more than half as an exercise in adding a new socket family.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jim at g1jbg.co.uk Sat Apr 30 12:25:08 2005 From: jim at g1jbg.co.uk (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:25:08 +0100 Subject: Paper Tape Emulator Message-ID: <002001c54da9$8ecf76e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, has anyone tried to write a paper tape emulator in BASIC? I've had a go in GW-BASIC, but I suspect that the implementation of the language is too slow to reliably drive the serial port - it doesn't always pick up the paper advance signal (I've tried using both CTS and DCD as inputs). Will I have to go to a machine code routine to get the fast port access? I look forward to replies. Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Apr 30 12:50:06 2005 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:50:06 -0400 Subject: Der Mouse In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:14:38 EDT." <200504301717.NAA29868@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200504301750.j3UHo623030257@mwave.heeltoe.com> der Mouse wrote: >>>> http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/29/149249&tid=185&tid=7 >>> Yes, that's me. >> Is there anything that describes "timer sockets" (PF_TIMER). I've >> never seen these before and was wondering what problem they solved. > >Briefly, they provide a file-descriptor interface to the timer >facilities underlying setitimer(ITIMER_REAL) and SIGALRM. Does this allow one to interrupt a pending select with a little more grace? (as opposed to using short timeouts or a local udp socket bound to the loopback, two less-than-elegant solutions to waking up select) humm. I guess they would also allow you to have multiple timers, and you can tell which one fired by the fd... is that right? -brad From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 30 13:57:23 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:57:23 -0500 Subject: new scrap dealer found :> Message-ID: <007101c54db6$7339c680$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> At one of my usual electronics surplus stores the other day, they told me "If I'm into old computers.... go see this scrap dealer" and gave me the address. My interest was piqued, as it was not one I was already familiar with. So, I headed out there today. Interesting place... 8 acres... most of the stuff was inside crumbling warehouses, some was outside in the elements. I believe I saw a deuce and a half ;) But anyways... on to the computer stuff I noticed... One of the lowboy HP cabinets (about 2.5 feet tall) with a 13037 subsystem and 7906D drive mounted. The formica top was missing, but the insides looked pristine. I already have one of these (with formica top), but may pick this one up just to have a spare. They are perfect for a mobile drive (as mobile as a 190 pound drive gets) and you can set a terminal on top (but don't bother trying to read the screen when the drives voice coil is moving). I may use the 7906 as a donor to get another 7906 working... anyways... I noticed a large floorstanding Silicon Graphics machine, didn't get too close to it but I think it said "IRIS" on it. Summagraphics graphics tablet. A large seven foot Digital rack with a processor, tape drive (TZ07), scsi drive tray w/drives, RD42? (cd, no caddy). Dusty, but very good condition. I may buy the TZ07. I couldn't see anything saying what kind of cpu it was. The cpu tray had the cpu on the left, and 3 or 4 what looked to be hard drive modules in front too. No clue what that is, I'm not familiar with that era of DEC gear. Saw another TZ07 too just sitting loose - it was a desktop enclosure - I may snag that too. Oh, there was a neat dual bay olive green rack - I'm guessing it was some time of automated fire control for a military gun. Appeared to have front panel buttons like "turret position, reload time, etc.". I think most of the guts were westinghouse perhaps. Didn't appear to be (to me) an obvious OEM cpu or anything. Quite old. There were selectric typewriters by the palletfull. Some huge floorstanding HP plotter... the front panel said something to the effect of "HP Plotter model I". No interest to me. Much to my joy - the guy who owned the place was just what us collectors would hope for. Soon as I walked in the door he wanted to know what kind of stuff I was looking for, my cell & home number, etc. He took copious notes, and told me matter of factly he'd keep an eye out for the kind of stuff I'm interested in and definitely call me immediately. Seemed most helpful. And better yet, he said they have another location about 10 minutes away, but I didn't have time to go look there. The guy did say "you do know stuff from that period had decent amounts of gold in it", and I told him sure, and I'd be happy to give him more than scrap value for stuff I'm interested in. So, next weekend probably I'll go check out the other place. Note to self - next time, take a flashlight, wear boots, and plan for more time - not every area was searched. Regards, Jay West From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Apr 30 14:41:29 2005 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:41:29 -0500 Subject: Found a NEC UltraLite Message-ID: <007a01c54dbc$9bfd8240$34406b43@66067007> Yesterday at a local thrift I found a NEC UltraLite hidden in bundle of toys. It had a price of $9.59 on it but is missing the power supply for it. Not able to test it until I find a power source for it. Looked on the web for some information it and found a couple of nice sites. From James at jdfogg.com Sat Apr 30 15:05:09 2005 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:05:09 -0400 Subject: new scrap dealer found :> Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045959@sbs.jdfogg.com> > At one of my usual electronics surplus stores the other day, > they told me "If I'm into old computers.... go see this scrap > dealer" and gave me the address. My interest was piqued, as > it was not one I was already familiar with. So, I headed out > there today. And this is where? Or are you silent to protect the stash :-) From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Sat Apr 30 15:03:02 2005 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:03:02 +0200 Subject: Paper Tape Emulator In-Reply-To: <002001c54da9$8ecf76e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> References: <002001c54da9$8ecf76e0$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20050430200302.GN24187@lug-owl.de> On Sat, 2005-04-30 18:25:08 +0100, Jim Beacon wrote: > has anyone tried to write a paper tape emulator in BASIC? I've had a go in > GW-BASIC, but I suspect that the implementation of the language is too slow > to reliably drive the serial port - it doesn't always pick up the paper > advance signal (I've tried using both CTS and DCD as inputs). Well, I haven't ever actually played with a paper tape reader (or writer), but I guess it cannot be that hard to write an emulator for it. Are there specs available? If I ever find some time, I'd volunteer to write one in C for POSIX systems. MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de . +49-172-7608481 _ O _ "Eine Freie Meinung in einem Freien Kopf | Gegen Zensur | Gegen Krieg _ _ O fuer einen Freien Staat voll Freier B?rger" | im Internet! | im Irak! O O O ret = do_actions((curr | FREE_SPEECH) & ~(NEW_COPYRIGHT_LAW | DRM | TCPA)); From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 30 15:06:24 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:06:24 -0400 Subject: new scrap dealer found :> Message-ID: <0IFR00IUEZTIXE67@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: new scrap dealer found :> > From: "Jay West" > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:57:23 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >At one of my usual electronics surplus stores the other day, they told me >"If I'm into old computers.... go see this scrap dealer" and gave me the >address. My interest was piqued, as it was not one I was already familiar >with. So, I headed out there today. > >Interesting place... 8 acres... most of the stuff was inside crumbling >warehouses, some was outside in the elements. I believe I saw a deuce and a >half ;) But anyways... on to the computer stuff I noticed... Jay, For curiosity where is that place? If not specifically, then generally. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Apr 30 15:04:30 2005 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 14:04:30 -0600 Subject: new scrap dealer found :> In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045959@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045959@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <4273E4CE.2010805@jetnet.ab.ca> James Fogg wrote: >And this is where? Or are you silent to protect the stash :-) > > I don't think he is home, He is most likey trying to find more storage space. :-) I don't think people will find many more places like this in future so one has to becareful in handling this opertunity... Btw I am looking a paper tape punch/reader at reasonable cost and weight for shipping to canada and lifting up stairs. :D Ben alias woodelf From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 30 15:13:46 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:13:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Der Mouse In-Reply-To: <200504301750.j3UHo623030257@mwave.heeltoe.com> References: <200504301750.j3UHo623030257@mwave.heeltoe.com> Message-ID: <200504302016.QAA00746@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Is there anything that describes "timer sockets" (PF_TIMER). I've >>> never seen these before and was wondering what problem they solved. >> Briefly, they provide a file-descriptor interface to the timer >> facilities underlying setitimer(ITIMER_REAL) and SIGALRM. > Does this allow one to interrupt a pending select with a little more > grace? Depends on what you mean. If you mean "in response to an asynchronous external condition", no, they don't. If you mean "in response to one of various timeouts expiring", yes, they do, if you throw the timer socket file descriptor(s) into the select set. > humm. I guess they would also allow you to have multiple timers, and > you can tell which one fired by the fd... Yes. That's another reason I find them useful - you don't have to keep your own list of timers and constantly pick out the next one to expire, simplifying code. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Apr 30 15:50:15 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:50:15 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <3059.192.168.0.10.1114813328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <17011.61319.333930.729175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "witchy" == witchy writes: >>> Do you have an idea how many VAX9000s were sold? I remember the >>> mags of the day full of pictures of a thoughtful tech staring at >>> one of the CPU modules, quite possibly thinking 'this costs >>> WAAAAAY too much money' :) >> I googled a while ago. People said that 454 were sold. witchy> That's more than I expected actually. I wonder how many are witchy> left......and how many ex digits have one in their garage :) It's a nice powerful machine. One of its problems was that it was originally planned as a water-cooled machine (code name "aquarius"). That ended up being impractical, so plan B was to do an air cooled somewhat slowed down version (code name "aridus" :-) ). So a bunch of the technology was done on the assumption that power density could be very high and speed would be the maximum possible at that time. Also, I think it was the only VAX ever shipped out of the "large systems group" which used to be the PDP-10 group before the last PDP-10 project got nuked halfway through its development. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Apr 30 16:13:18 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:13:18 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <42739314.nail99G13SNKE@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <17011.62702.734775.500349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "shoppa" == shoppa classiccmp writes: >>> [ RA90 destroying DEC ] shoppa> It may have been late, but DEC really was a leader in disk shoppa> and tape storage in the early 90's, thanks largely to the shoppa> technology they developed for the RA9x. They got out of the shoppa> business (selling their storage tech stuff to Quantum, shoppa> right?) just before it got commoditized to the point where it shoppa> became uninteresting (and possibly too-profit- thin). I think that was part of the "sell everything in little pieces" approach Bob Palmer used. Maybe he once was a good manager but he clearly was nowhere competent enough to be CEO of DEC. So he just chopped it up and sold the bits one by one, until finally Compaq bought the last piece and retired him with way more money than he deserved. Yech. KO made his shared of mistakes, but at least he had the right intentions. BTW, on the topic of disk drives, I heard about a prototype created by the disk engineering group for a disk drive (3.5 inch, or maybe smaller) that was made mostly of plastic. Apparently it was very cheap, and might have been a big hit but people didn't want to invest in the new manufacturing line required for it... paul From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 30 16:15:19 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:15:19 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) Message-ID: <0IFS00I4K30CXCE7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) > From: Paul Koning > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:50:15 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >It's a nice powerful machine. One of its problems was that it was >originally planned as a water-cooled machine (code name "aquarius"). >That ended up being impractical, so plan B was to do an air cooled >somewhat slowed down version (code name "aridus" :-) ). > >So a bunch of the technology was done on the assumption that power >density could be very high and speed would be the maximum possible at >that time. Also, I think it was the only VAX ever shipped out of the >"large systems group" which used to be the PDP-10 group before the >last PDP-10 project got nuked halfway through its development. > > paul One of the interesting aspects is the collision of technology at that point in time. People that thought they needed a bigger meaner VAX got it with the 9000. However in the same timeframe there was increased demand for smaller ligher VAXen and use more of them. What was happening in the background was the speed/power product of CMOS was getting better and ECL (ECL100k) was was poor in the density/power product. So while the 9000 was the fastest vax.. for a while the later CMOS versions was very close and a smaller plus cheaper was it. Add to that that a Multiprocessor VAX using chip technology was not only practical and well supported it offered a better bang for the buck. If that weren't enough the same ugly dragon that helped kill Jupiter (PDP-10) was back to haunt VAX. At some point in the near future it was clear that 32bits no matter how fast was going to be inefficient and 64bits was a very viable answer, that begat Alpha. Who'd have though in 1987 that a gigabyte was not enough and terabytes were only a few years away. Maybe I have a different view but, every processor technology did reach a point where speed was not the exclusive issue. At that point addressing (main memory addressability) would force a jump in the word size. If that weren't true we'd be running 3ghz Z80s. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Apr 30 16:19:57 2005 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:19:57 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) Message-ID: <0IFS003UL382ZEC2@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) > From: Paul Koning > Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:13:18 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >BTW, on the topic of disk drives, I heard about a prototype created by >the disk engineering group for a disk drive (3.5 inch, or maybe >smaller) that was made mostly of plastic. Apparently it was very >cheap, and might have been a big hit but people didn't want to invest >in the new manufacturing line required for it... > > paul Ever look at a RZ23 (and later drives)? The HDA uses less metal than most 3.2" disks even now. Allison From pkoning at equallogic.com Sat Apr 30 16:39:17 2005 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:39:17 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) References: <0IFS00I4K30CXCE7@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <17011.64261.549933.424951@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> One of the interesting aspects is the collision of Allison> technology at that point in time. People that thought they Allison> needed a bigger meaner VAX got it with the 9000. However in Allison> the same timeframe there was increased demand for smaller Allison> ligher VAXen and use more of them. What was happening in Allison> the background was the speed/power product of CMOS was Allison> getting better and ECL (ECL100k) was was poor in the Allison> density/power product. True. Although interestingly the reason that is true is because the ECL chip builders never built anything other than SSI parts with ECL. DEC Research in Palo Alto did a neat project to do VLSI ECL, which no one had ever done. It turns out that ECL is very efficient and compact for many logic functions if you use the right circuits. The WRL team designed its own design tools because nothing existed to do the job. They actually did build a MIPS processor that way that ran at a half GHz or so (back in 1992) and were going to do a GHz Alpha. They almost did. What killed the project is that all the ECL foundries kept closing down. The design tools actually allowed switching to another fab with different design rules, but at some point they ran out of fabs. They also did some very slick work to handle 100 watt chips, something that Intel later made routine (some years after DEC was ridiculed for building 100 watt Alphas). Allison> So while the 9000 was the fastest Allison> vax.. for a while the later CMOS versions was very close and Allison> a smaller plus cheaper was it. Add to that that a Allison> Multiprocessor VAX using chip technology was not only Allison> practical and well supported it offered a better bang for Allison> the buck. If that weren't enough the same ugly dragon that Allison> helped kill Jupiter (PDP-10) was back to haunt VAX. At some Allison> point in the near future it was clear that 32bits no matter Allison> how fast was going to be inefficient and 64bits was a very Allison> viable answer, that begat Alpha. Who'd have though in 1987 Allison> that a gigabyte was not enough and terabytes were only a few Allison> years away. Too bad that DEC canceled two perfectly good RISC architectures before finally deciding to ship RISC in the guise of Alpha (and, for a while, MIPS because they had canceled their two earlier internal efforts that were better). paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 30 16:49:55 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:49:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 6802 disassembler Message-ID: <200504302154.RAA01867@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Back on Wednesday, I (quoted and) wrote >> Can someone recommend a freeware 6802 disassembler. > Well, I have a multi-machine disassembler that supports a half-dozen > CPUs now. The 6800 is not one of them, but it would be fairly easy > to add. If anyone can send me a sufficiently precise description of > the 6800 instruction set, I'll be happy to write the necessary code. Someone was kind enough to send me a description of the 6303, which is supposedly a Hitachi part that runs 6800 code and has some additional instructions. The description I got did not distinguish which instructions are 6800-compatible and which are 6303 extensions, but it was sufficient for me to add the 6303 to my disassembler. Given a description of the differences between the 6800 and the 6303, I could easily make it do the 6800 as well (the infrastructure is all there, but lacking such a description I can't do much with it). To the nice person who sent me that - speak up if you want people to know who you are. *You* know who you are, and thank you in any case. > ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/disas/src for those interested. The FTPable copy has been udpated. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 16:37:37 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:37:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: <4272FE0B.1070704@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Apr 29, 5 10:39:55 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > There was no separate TechRef for the CGA card. The hardware is covered > > in the normal Options and Adapters Techref. > > ...which I don't have :) Oh well, hopefully there's electronic copy somewhere. I've never seen an electronic copy of any of the Techrefs, I am not sure if IBM would explode if somebody started distributing them, either. > > > It's supported by the > > standard mainboard BIOS, the source lising of which is in the > > machine-specific techrefs. > > I don't have that either, but I've disassembled my own BIOS and found that it > is nearly useless to me -- for example, there are instructions that take longer > to execute out of RAM (4 cycles per byte opcode) than ROM (2 cycles) -- so it's Rememebr the true-blue IBMs didn't shaddow the ROM. The BIOS ran from ROM all the time. But the BIOS code is often pretty badly written. The RS232 driver in particular is a good example of how not to do things! To be fair, I have much the same comments about the hardware. When I got my TechRefs, I went through all the schematics, and exclaimed at approximately 2 minute intervals 'They did WAHT???' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Apr 30 16:43:11 2005 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:43:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Teletype Troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <200504292316290832.2CA5A810@192.168.42.129> from "Bruce Lane" at Apr 29, 5 11:16:29 pm Message-ID: > >I'm testing in local mode and am getting incorrect characters > >on (almost) every keypress. The characters will change even > >with repeated pressings of the same key. I am pretty sure the > >keyboard is outputting the correct codes. > > Never assume. One problem area we had was that the stiff spring-contact That is a more general point. Never assume anything -- far too much time has been wasted assuming something is working correctly when it could be trivially tested! That was the point of my idea to test the trasnmitter side separately. We need to know which area of the machine has problems, then narrow down on the faulty part. More generally still, if something is safety-related, never assume anything. If you ever get me working on a machine with you, you will find I never trust you've turned off the power/unplugged it. I will check. If you feel insulted by that, I frankly don't care. And if I say I've turned something off, I expect you to check. I won't be insulted, I know I can easily make mistakes [1] [1] Like most hackers [2], I love a good practical joke, but I don't regard claiming to have isolated something whan I've not done so as a joke. Potential death situations are not funny. [2] I am not claiming to be a hacker. I know I am nowhere near good enough. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Apr 30 17:44:54 2005 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 15:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Der Mouse In-Reply-To: <200504301717.NAA29868@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200504301129.j3UBTWHX016577@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200504301717.NAA29868@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <40059.67.125.90.0.1114901094.squirrel@67.125.90.0> Brad wrote: >> Is there anything that describes "timer sockets" (PF_TIMER). I've >> never seen these before and was wondering what problem they solved. der Mouse wrote: > Briefly, they provide a file-descriptor interface to the timer > facilities underlying setitimer(ITIMER_REAL) and SIGALRM. OK, but I still don't understand what problem they solve. Well, maybe I have an idea. The one program I used setitimer() in would core dump if the system was heavily loaded and a second timer signal occurred before service for an earlier one completed. Does the file descriptor interface solve this somehow? Eric From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Apr 30 18:02:07 2005 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:02:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Der Mouse In-Reply-To: <40059.67.125.90.0.1114901094.squirrel@67.125.90.0> References: <200504301129.j3UBTWHX016577@mwave.heeltoe.com> <200504301717.NAA29868@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40059.67.125.90.0.1114901094.squirrel@67.125.90.0> Message-ID: <200504302317.TAA03748@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> "timer sockets" (PF_TIMER) >> Briefly, they provide a file-descriptor interface to the timer >> facilities underlying setitimer(ITIMER_REAL) and SIGALRM. > OK, but I still don't understand what problem they solve. Like a lot of facilities, they're a matter of convenience. If your program uses timer signals *in order to* interrupt operations in progress, you want signals - you want setitimer() and sigaction(). But if your program uses timer signals merely to drive time-based processing, such as a game that wants to do something ten times a second and doesn't want to interrupt other processing, merely wanting to set a flag which is checked to see if it's time to do whatever - then timer sockets can help. Instead of having a signal handler set a flag which you check in your main loop, instead, you create a timer socket and check its file descriptor along with the descriptors you're probably already checking for user input, maybe network connections if it's over-the-net, that kind of thing. > Well, maybe I have an idea. The one program I used setitimer() in > would core dump if the system was heavily loaded and a second timer > signal occurred before service for an earlier one completed. Does > the file descriptor interface solve this somehow? Yes - because it doesn't use signals. Rather, you create a timer socket ts = socket(AF_TIMER,SOCK_STREAM,0); and you set its timer with struct itimeval itv; ...set up itv... /* old way setitimer(ITIMER_REAL,&itv); */ write(ts,&itv,sizeof(itv)); and then, rather than getting a signal, the timer socket "receives" "input": it becomes readable, and if you read from it you get a struct which describes the event (usually a timer event, in which case it holds the time at which the event nominally occurred, but it can also be an error event if an error condition arose). Timer sockets are also useful because you can have a more or less unlimited number of them, whereas there's only one ITIMER_REAL. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From drb at msu.edu Sat Apr 30 19:57:41 2005 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:57:41 -0400 Subject: Help: simulated OS/8 gen Message-ID: <200505010057.j410vf8Y002801@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Dear all, I'm trying to construct an OS/8 environment under SIMH. I'm trying to use an RK05 device for the SYS volume, but can't seem to get the BUILD procedure right. The OS/8 distribution I grabbed is dectape images of V3D from http://www.pdp8.net/images/images/misc_dectapes.shtml. Here's what I've done so far: sim> at dt0 Dectapes/AL-4711C-BA.tu56 DT0: 12b format, buffering file in memory sim> at dt1 Dectapes/AL-4712C-BA.tu56 DT1: 12b format, buffering file in memory sim> at rk0 sys.dsk sim> at rk1 user.dsk sim> b dt0 .R BUILD $ At this point, I can't seem to INSERT or SYS anything resembling an RK05 system disk. If I: $LOAD DTA1:RK08SY then I can: $SYS RK8:RKA0 but when I try to do BOOTSTRAP I get: $BO ?SYS $ I also fiddled with PIP and the /Y and /S flags, trying to just build a copy of the tape on the disk, to no avail. I'm sure I'm just a dunderhead. Can anyone provide some hints? Thanks, De From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Apr 30 20:09:25 2005 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:09:25 -0400 Subject: Help: simulated OS/8 gen In-Reply-To: <200505010057.j410vf8Y002801@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200505010057.j410vf8Y002801@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20050430210715.01e31ea0@mail.itm-inst.com> At 08:57 PM 4/30/2005, Dennis Boone wrote: >Dear all, > >I'm trying to construct an OS/8 environment under SIMH. I'm trying to >use an RK05 device for the SYS volume, but can't seem to get the BUILD >procedure right. The OS/8 distribution I grabbed is dectape images >of V3D from http://www.pdp8.net/images/images/misc_dectapes.shtml. > >Here's what I've done so far: > > sim> at dt0 Dectapes/AL-4711C-BA.tu56 > DT0: 12b format, buffering file in memory > sim> at dt1 Dectapes/AL-4712C-BA.tu56 > DT1: 12b format, buffering file in memory > sim> at rk0 sys.dsk > sim> at rk1 user.dsk > sim> b dt0 > > .R BUILD > > $ > >At this point, I can't seem to INSERT or SYS anything resembling an >RK05 system disk. If I: > > $LOAD DTA1:RK08SY You're probably using the wrong driver. Try LOAD DTA1:RK8ESY -Rick From vax9000 at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 20:11:35 2005 From: vax9000 at gmail.com (9000 VAX) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 21:11:35 -0400 Subject: VAX9000 (was: RE: kda50 manual and sdi cables & questions) In-Reply-To: <17011.61319.333930.729175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <008101c54c46$4fde0820$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <000b01c54ce1$e39d0c00$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <1644.192.168.0.10.1114799102.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <3059.192.168.0.10.1114813328.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <17011.61319.333930.729175@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > So a bunch of the technology was done on the assumption that power > density could be very high and speed would be the maximum possible at > that time. Also, I think it was the only VAX ever shipped out of the > "large systems group" which used to be the PDP-10 group before the > last PDP-10 project got nuked halfway through its development. Again I googled a while ago and I learned that the "large system group" delivered VAX8600 in between PDP-10 and VAX 9000. > > paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 30 20:34:33 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:34:33 -0500 Subject: new scrap dealer found :> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A045959@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <005501c54ded$eddf9d10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> James wrote... > And this is where? Or are you silent to protect the stash :-) The latter ;) ok, St. Louis, MO :) From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Apr 30 20:39:08 2005 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:39:08 -0500 Subject: DEC Tx07 tape drive question (was Re: new scrap dealer found :>) References: <007101c54db6$7339c680$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <005c01c54dee$916b7120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm curious about the "TZ07" tape drives I located. I'm quite positive they were SCSI 1/2 mag tape drives. However, some googling on the web seems to indicate that a TZ07 is a 4mm dat? No, what I saw was clearly 1/2 mag tape, front loader, horizontal drive. Reminded me of an M4 9914 or Cipher F880 or was it F990... Anyways... I could be wrong about the TZ07 designation, but I was pretty sure I remembered it right. Can anyone tell me if a TZ07 is in fact a 1/2 front loading mag tape drive, and was it typically a given set of densities or was it frequently only one or two densities? Jay From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sat Apr 30 20:52:19 2005 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 18:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Tx07 tape drive question (was Re: new scrap dealer found :>) In-Reply-To: 6667 Message-ID: <20050501015219.41126.qmail@web53309.mail.yahoo.com> Jay, I have a TSZ07 right next to my desk and it surely is a 1/2" front loader. It will due either 6250 or 1600 BPI. Brian. --- Jay West wrote: > I'm curious about the "TZ07" tape drives I located. > > I'm quite positive they were SCSI 1/2 mag tape > drives. However, some > googling on the web seems to indicate that a TZ07 is > a 4mm dat? No, what I > saw was clearly 1/2 mag tape, front loader, > horizontal drive. Reminded me of > an M4 9914 or Cipher F880 or was it F990... > > Anyways... I could be wrong about the TZ07 > designation, but I was pretty > sure I remembered it right. Can anyone tell me if a > TZ07 is in fact a 1/2 > front loading mag tape drive, and was it typically a > given set of densities > or was it frequently only one or two densities? > > Jay > > > From mcesari at comcast.net Sat Apr 30 20:57:35 2005 From: mcesari at comcast.net (Mike Cesari) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 19:57:35 -0600 Subject: DEC Tx07 tape drive question (was Re: new scrap dealer found :>) In-Reply-To: <005c01c54dee$916b7120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007101c54db6$7339c680$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <005c01c54dee$916b7120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <4f780853b0d0ee7aa3eb5951e3c49abe@comcast.net> On Apr 30, 2005, at 7:39 PM, Jay West wrote: > I'm curious about the "TZ07" tape drives I located. > > I'm quite positive they were SCSI 1/2 mag tape drives. However, some > googling on the web seems to indicate that a TZ07 is a 4mm dat? No, > what I saw was clearly 1/2 mag tape, front loader, horizontal drive. > Reminded me of an M4 9914 or Cipher F880 or was it F990... > > Anyways... I could be wrong about the TZ07 designation, but I was > pretty sure I remembered it right. Can anyone tell me if a TZ07 is in > fact a 1/2 front loading mag tape drive, and was it typically a given > set of densities or was it frequently only one or two densities? > > Jay > There is a letter missing. :-) The DATs are TLZ07 and the 9-track would be a TSZ07. Mike From ml at hejoe.de Sat Apr 30 05:40:04 2005 From: ml at hejoe.de (Michael Loeblich) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 12:40:04 +0200 Subject: RA7x OCP pinout Message-ID: <1114857604.10366.2.camel@mldek.lan> The are 20 pins at the RA7x OCP interface. I found RA81 OCP pins, but this is different. Can anybody help with a pinout or link? Michael From jim.beacon at ntlworld.com Sat Apr 30 10:47:47 2005 From: jim.beacon at ntlworld.com (Jim Beacon) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 16:47:47 +0100 Subject: Paper Tape Emulator in Basic Message-ID: <000d01c54d9b$f6e99520$0200a8c0@ntlworld.com> Hi, has anyone tried to write a paper tape emulator in BASIC? I've had a go in GW-BASIC, but I suspect that the implementation of the language is too slow to reliable drive the serial port - it doesn't always pick up the paper advance signal (I've tried using both CTS and DCD as inputs). Will I have to go to a machine code routine to get the fast port access? I look forward to replies. Jim. Please see our website the " Vintage Communication Pages" at WWW.G1JBG.CO.UK From cfmd at bredband.net Sat Apr 30 15:16:21 2005 From: cfmd at bredband.net (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:16:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: EK-SCB02-UG-001 SBC-11/21 PLUS Single-Board Computer User's Guide. Message-ID: <20050430.221621.36859728.cfmd@bredband.net> Hi! I have been looking for material on my SBC-11/21 PLUS card for quite some time, and just found an 2 year old post of yours stating that you have the User's Guide in scanned format. Would you mind sharing it with me, as you offered it to the poster in this post: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-May/022047.html Actually, anything about the SBC-11/21 FALCON PLUS is of interest. Schematics would be nice. Cheers, Magnus From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Sat Apr 30 17:43:37 2005 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:43:37 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <42740A19.2050404@magnaspeed.net> I'm a little late on this thread .. it's hard to keep up. Besides the Tech Ref manuals and the Hardware maintenance manuals, the Sams ComputerFacts have also been helpful. I'm a big PCjr fanatic, but I find the hardware literature from the PC, XT and AT to be helpful because it is all very closely related. Besides keeping the old classic cards, I look for (and hold) good general purpose cards. Future Domain 85x series SCSI cards are a good example; they work in eight bit systems like the PC and the software is functional enough to drive hard disks, CD-ROMs, etc. While we're on the topic, I've been trying to find an XT tech ref. I want it for the BIOS listing of the hard drive adapter. This kind of thing is useful when grafting one of the old MFM controllers onto a PCjr. Does anybody have a source for these? (I have the Jr tech ref and an AT tech ref, but finding an XT tech ref has been difficult.) Mike mbbrutman at brutman.com From Tim at rikers.org Sat Apr 30 22:24:55 2005 From: Tim at rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 22:24:55 -0500 Subject: DEC Tx07 tape drive question (was Re: new scrap dealer found :>) In-Reply-To: <005c01c54dee$916b7120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <007101c54db6$7339c680$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <005c01c54dee$916b7120$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <42744C07.5040408@Rikers.org> Jay West wrote: > I'm quite positive they were SCSI 1/2 mag tape drives. However, some > googling on the web seems to indicate that a TZ07 is a 4mm dat? No, what > I saw was clearly 1/2 mag tape, front loader, horizontal drive. Reminded > me of an M4 9914 or Cipher F880 or was it F990... F880 is shorter. M990 (not F) is the tallest. Then came the M995S. Simple googled page: http://www.electrovalueinc.com/9_track_drives.htm The M990 had a scsi option, but was pertec by default. The F880 likely had a scsi option as well. My M990 does not have the scsi interface, but I sure wish it did. =( From marvin at rain.org Sat Apr 30 22:57:01 2005 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 20:57:01 -0700 Subject: Vintage Computer Web Site Message-ID: <4274538D.2A549180@rain.org> I just ran across this site: http://www.1000bit.net/ It has some good information *and* photos of quite a few machines. The concept seems to be that people register and make public information about their machines. I had listed a bubble memory module (FBM43CA) on VCM with no knowledge of what it went to. The information on Norm's website at http://gallery.owt.com/~anheier/index.src told me that it goes to Fujitsu's first micro, an M-8. I *think* we have a nice find there! From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 30 23:24:01 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:24:01 -0500 Subject: New Find: Apollo Workstation Message-ID: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Today at a local municipal auction I got an exciting new find: An H-P Apollo Series 735 Workstation. I blew it, in part, because all I got was the main system, an external SCSI drive array (six differential SCSI drives in an HP box, with wide-diff cable) and the external CDROM. Somebody else got the big monitor (the main system has three BNC out video) and I never saw the keyboard, but it was probably there. I only spied the system in the mess of PC clones being sold as it came up for bid so I had to buy it in a group with six other Intel boxes for $5. Shortly thereafter, and before I noticed it, the monitor for it (marked HP, row of BNC connectors on back, etc.) went for $1 to somebody else. SERIOUS headslapping incident. The part that really bugs me is it likely went to someone seeing 'big screen' and expecting a VGA connector on back. The system has a single narrow SCSI drive inside, about half the memory slots are populated. It looks like it was connected to the external CDROM drive (a matching HP case drive that I *happened* to get in an additional box lot) on the narrow SCSI connector, and the wide differential SCSI cable was still attached to the big box that has six additional drives in it. I have a few questions for anybody on the list who has more experience with Apollo workstations: Will I be able to use this system over a serial console? I'm hoping it will 'just come up' with whatever system is on the hard drive, though I probably won't get past a login prompt. This is the main way I use my Sun boxes (serial console). Will it just sense the lack of a keyboard and bring up serial port A? What OS did a system of this vintage run? By looking at chip markings, etc, it appears to be about a 1990 vintage system. I'm really upset with myself that I wasn't more 'on the ball' with this system. I know I saw the video cable (triple BNC) go away to somebody else in another box they got really cheap, I saw the monitor there and know it went for a dollar, and judging by the completeness of parts of the system that I saw in boxes and the parts that I (thankfully) got, I am fairly certain there was probably an HP keyboard in the mess, too. I could have gotten a complete system here, and now I'm going to have to settle for serial console for the time being, if that's even possible. Anyhow, it's a cool 'tall narrow' tower system to add to my collection and it's beautifully high quality construction. I just wish I had it all. -Scott From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 30 23:33:27 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:33:27 -0500 Subject: Original IBM 64K Memory Kit in original box on ebay.... In-Reply-To: <32185.217.196.231.69.1114691278.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200504271918.j3RJI09L011311@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3.0.6.32.20050427201109.0115b870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <32185.217.196.231.69.1114691278.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050430233327.785fc488.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:27:58 +0100 (BST) "Witchy" wrote: > > >>I really don't see the point in something like this. There are many > >>easier and cheaper ways to get 9 off 4164 DRAMs (which IIRC, is all > >this>kit consists of). > >> > >>-tony > > > > There will be somebody on E-bay that will want it! > > > > Aye, I'm a collector and museum owner as well as an interested > hardware type of bloke so getting an original IBM PC upgrade kit still > in its packaging is interesting for me, though the kit would never be > used because both of my 5150s are maxed out. > Unfortunately, a 4164 kit is 'rather late' for the IBM-PC. Now, if it were a kit of nine 4116 chips for the original IBM PC1, it would be more impressive. (the first generation IBM PC motherboard had four rows of 16K DRAM chips with just the first row of nine soldered in, for a total of 64K on the motherboard- any additional memory had to be on the I/O channel.) I USED to have two of those first generation motherboards. Yet another regret is that I don't have them anymore. From chenmel at earthlink.net Sat Apr 30 23:50:32 2005 From: chenmel at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 23:50:32 -0500 Subject: PC/Apple/etc. Cards Worth Keeping/Storing In-Reply-To: References: <20050427213340.395c08ec.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20050430235032.5c119c29.chenmel@earthlink.net> On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:23:40 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > The other reason to keep original IBM PC cards is that the > > schematics and tech info are published, so they're easy to modify > > and/or use for > > Agreed. > > > special purposes, like the disk conversion devices and functions > > people are always talking about here. It's pretty easy to make an > > original IBM Floppy Controller work with anything that the 765 > > controller will talk to. > > Although some of the clone cards with a 765 and that little 8 pin data > > separator chip (9216 IIRC) were also very hackable. > > > > > I hope I'm not the only person with a fairly complete IBM-published > > hardware 'technical reference' set for the PC/XT/AT line. > > Depends on what you mean by 'complete'. I have : > > PC > PC/XT and Portable > AT (with the update for the 8MHz board, later BIOS, etc), it ended up > in 2 binders) > > These are the later manuals covering just the mainboard, keyboard, > PSU. > > But then I also have : > > Options and Adapters (2 volumes) covering the cards, monitors, drives > for the PC and XT > > AT supplement for the O&A manual > > Scinetific Options and Adapters (GPIB, data aquisition, Professional > graphics) > > EGA Techref > > PCjr Trechref > > All the above are real manauls with schematics, BIOS listings, etc in > them. > > PS/2 Hardware Interface Techref -- no scheamtics, no source code, but > better than nothing. It was given to me by a firend, so I am not going > to complain. > > I also have the Hardware Maintenance and Service manaul for the AT. > It's a boardswapper guid, but it was given to me (I bought the AT > Techref second-hand, it came with it). It actually has some useful > info on repairing the 5152 printer (== Epson MX80, basically). > > I don't have all the O&A suplements, and I don't have the XT/286 > techref, although that machine is pretty close the AT in hardware. > > -tony My PC Techref is the first generation edition. Because my father, as an IBM employee, bought one of the first PC's on the market and bought 'everything' with it. So my Techref has the distinction of only covering the 16-64K motherboard. (And, damnit, I don't have 'everything' that he got, just that manual. By rights I should have his 'black paint on power supply' 'black painted card brackets' PC1 system, which I at one point upgraded for him from 180K to 360K floppy disks. BUT I DON'T!!) My 'XT' Techref isn't really that. I have the IBM Industrial Computer Technical Reference Manual set, which is a superset of the XT. Apparently the Industrial PC was an XT motherboard in a ruggedized industrial case, and all the options and add-ins were available, so are included in the Industrial techref. I also have a two volume 'Options and add-ins' Techref set, which is two slipcovered books with just the options and what-not stuff. I think it dates from the pre-XT era. From ericj at speakeasy.org Sat Apr 30 19:57:42 2005 From: ericj at speakeasy.org (Eric Josephson) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 17:57:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New Find: Apollo Workstation In-Reply-To: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Apr 2005, Scott Stevens wrote: > Will I be able to use this system over a serial console? I'm hoping it > will 'just come up' with whatever system is on the hard drive, though I > probably won't get past a login prompt. This is the main way I use my > Sun boxes (serial console). Will it just sense the lack of a keyboard > and bring up serial port A? Switching to the serial console is probably not going to be as straightforward as it is on your Sun, but the service handbook (link below) should tell you what you need to know. IIRC you can boot into something like single-user mode to bypass the login provided certain security features aren't enabled. I've forgotten the details, but I'm sure I've done this with other parisc hpux boxen > What OS did a system of this vintage run? By looking at chip markings, > etc, it appears to be about a 1990 vintage system. According to: http://www.openpa.net/systems/735_755.html It runs hpux, nextstep, linux, or openbsd. Of that lineup, I'd go with nextstep: I don't know about the 735, but it's *really* pretty on my 712 and my 715. The downside is that nextstep doesn't do wide scsi and may or may not support your framebuffer. The link to the service handbook from the above site is broken, but here's one that worked: http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/lpv38563/lpv38563.pdf > I'm really upset with myself that I wasn't more 'on the ball' with this > system. I know I saw the video cable (triple BNC) go away to somebody > else in another box they got really cheap, I saw the monitor there and > know it went for a dollar, and judging by the completeness of parts of > the system that I saw in boxes and the parts that I (thankfully) got, I > am fairly certain there was probably an HP keyboard in the mess, too. > I could have gotten a complete system here, and now I'm going to have to > settle for serial console for the time being, if that's even possible. I may have a spare anchor^H^H^H^H^H^Hmonitor cable from a 425. Does your framebuffer have three BNC ports? I also have plenty of hp-hil keyboards (and mice) I'd just love to give away to a good home, so contact me off-list if you're interested. I wouldn't sweat missing out on the monitor: the video should work with most any workstation monitor that has BNC connectors (I've not yet encountered one that doesn't do sync on green). If you're near Seattle, you can stop by Boeing surplus and take your pick of 17"-21" BNC monitors for $5-$10. I suppose that's one benefit of the state charging recyling fees to dispose of anything with a CRT. :) Nice box, by the way. Regards, -- Eric Josephson From lincoln.fessenden at verizon.net Sat Apr 30 23:33:14 2005 From: lincoln.fessenden at verizon.net (lincoln.fessenden) Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 00:33:14 -0400 Subject: New Find: Apollo Workstation In-Reply-To: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> References: <20050430232401.1f9c808f.chenmel@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <42745C0A.50606@verizon.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > Today at a local municipal auction I got an exciting new find: > > An H-P Apollo Series 735 Workstation. > > I blew it, in part, because all I got was the main system, an external > SCSI drive array (six differential SCSI drives in an HP box, with > wide-diff cable) and the external CDROM. Somebody else got the big > monitor (the main system has three BNC out video) and I never saw the > keyboard, but it was probably there. I only spied the system in the > mess of PC clones being sold as it came up for bid so I had to buy it in > a group with six other Intel boxes for $5. Shortly thereafter, and > before I noticed it, the monitor for it (marked HP, row of BNC > connectors on back, etc.) went for $1 to somebody else. SERIOUS > headslapping incident. The part that really bugs me is it likely went > to someone seeing 'big screen' and expecting a VGA connector on back. > > The system has a single narrow SCSI drive inside, about half the memory > slots are populated. It looks like it was connected to the external > CDROM drive (a matching HP case drive that I *happened* to get in an > additional box lot) on the narrow SCSI connector, and the wide > differential SCSI cable was still attached to the big box that has six > additional drives in it. > > I have a few questions for anybody on the list who has more experience > with Apollo workstations: > > Will I be able to use this system over a serial console? I'm hoping it > will 'just come up' with whatever system is on the hard drive, though I > probably won't get past a login prompt. This is the main way I use my > Sun boxes (serial console). Will it just sense the lack of a keyboard > and bring up serial port A? > > What OS did a system of this vintage run? By looking at chip markings, > etc, it appears to be about a 1990 vintage system. > > I'm really upset with myself that I wasn't more 'on the ball' with this > system. I know I saw the video cable (triple BNC) go away to somebody > else in another box they got really cheap, I saw the monitor there and > know it went for a dollar, and judging by the completeness of parts of > the system that I saw in boxes and the parts that I (thankfully) got, I > am fairly certain there was probably an HP keyboard in the mess, too. > I could have gotten a complete system here, and now I'm going to have to > settle for serial console for the time being, if that's even possible. > > Anyhow, it's a cool 'tall narrow' tower system to add to my collection > and it's beautifully high quality construction. I just wish I had it > all. > > -Scott They are nice machines. You can run HP/UX 10.20 on them and possibly 11.x but I don't think it's officially supported. They are also supposed to run Debian as well without too much hassle. Slap a terminal on "A" and start whacking the escape key during self tests. You should be able to get a serial console running on it - I know I run mine that way (also a 735). Good luck. -- -Linc Fessenden In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right...