From brian at quarterbyte.com Tue Jun 1 00:05:46 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:00 2005 Subject: selectric consoles In-Reply-To: <200406010304.i5132Khk053944@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <40BBAC3A.23812.8AE1754D@localhost> I have one of those IO selectrics from eBay too. It looks like they were pulled from service, are nicely cleaned and lubricated but not repaired (e.g. mine has one shorted solenoid). Have gotten most of the wiring figured out, will send the documentation to any interested party -- contact me off-list. Later this summer I'll be building an interface for it, probably with usb, maybe serial also. Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Jun 1 00:05:46 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Mon, 31 May 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > > > go for it! it is worth chasing after! if it is the 300 or 1200 the > > cassette works like a tty paper tape... very useful! > > Brian, > > Does it look anything like this? Nope; it looks like http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/terminet.html that. It's the boxy-looking teleprinter against the brick wall near the center of the picture. Cheers John PS: "Everybody trim yer replies." Yeah, right.... If some folks on this list had to pay for their 'Net service by the byte, like many of our European respondents - you'd see a remarkably more polite buncha posting habits... PPS: Don't try to teach a pig to sing.... ;} From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Jun 1 00:37:10 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? References: Message-ID: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> yes.... but I am not sure that cassette unit next to it is the stock GE unit...... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 10:05 PM Subject: Re: general electric terminal? > > > On Mon, 31 May 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Mon, 31 May 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > > > > > go for it! it is worth chasing after! if it is the 300 or 1200 the > > > cassette works like a tty paper tape... very useful! > > > > Brian, > > > > Does it look anything like this? > > > Nope; it looks like > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/terminet.html > > > that. It's the boxy-looking teleprinter against the brick wall near the > center of the picture. > > > Cheers > > John > > PS: "Everybody trim yer replies." Yeah, right.... If some folks on this > list had to pay for their 'Net service by the byte, like many of our > European respondents - you'd see a remarkably more polite buncha posting > habits... > > PPS: Don't try to teach a pig to sing.... ;} > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Jun 1 00:38:18 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? References: Message-ID: <007601c4479a$a47fc870$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> http://siconic.com/ebay/ASR733-1.jpg is a ti silent 733 Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 9:47 PM Subject: Re: general electric terminal? > On Mon, 31 May 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > > > go for it! it is worth chasing after! if it is the 300 or 1200 the > > cassette works like a tty paper tape... very useful! > > Brian, > > Does it look anything like this? > > http://siconic.com/ebay/ASR733-1.jpg > > P.S. Please trim replies people!! > > -- > From nospam212-classiccmp at yahoo.com Tue Jun 1 00:54:27 2004 From: nospam212-classiccmp at yahoo.com (nospam212-classiccmp@yahoo.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: Pdp-11/60 and HP 9836 available in Houston In-Reply-To: <20040601035439.GA13516@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040601055427.93997.qmail@web81006.mail.yahoo.com> Yes it does look like it would be a bit of a drive for you right now. I'm really looking to see if I can get someone to pick it up and take it whole. Don't want to have to part it out, put it on ebay or take it to the scrapper if I can help it. I'm sure I'll find someone. I have one person who just wants the front panel. Looking to see if I can keep it together first. Ethan Dicks wrote:If I were home, I'd give serious consideration to a road trip (from Ohio). That's one of the models I've always thought was kinda cool, due to the writable control store. I heard a story once that one of the DEC engineers wrote PDP-8-instruction-set microcode for it as an exercise. Internal lore held that it was the fastest PDP-8 ever made (dunno if it ran more than FOCAL and paper-tape programs, though - interfacing devices would be a bit of a hassle, I'd expect). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Jun-2004 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.3 F (-63.5 C) Windchill -120.2 F (-84.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.9 kts Grid 102 Barometer 664.2 mb (11229. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html ----- "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams dlwfanservice@sbcglobal.com From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Jun 1 00:59:34 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? In-Reply-To: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > yes.... but I am not sure that cassette unit next to it is the stock GE > unit...... Yup - it looks just like the three that came with the -30s that I had. Wish I still had them - one worked well, the other had dead logic and was a parts donor - I even ponied up the $75 that GE wanted for the Service Manual. I gave them away during a major move - but that was more thna 20 years ago. Cheers John >Extensive ridiculous multiple unedited reply threads SNIPPED. From marvin at rain.org Tue Jun 1 01:29:43 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: Found Today - Sony SMC-2000, etc. Message-ID: <40BC2257.988BEE86@rain.org> Something I've wanted for quite a while is a Sony SMC-2000 computer with the LDP-2000 laserdisc player. Today I finally got it! This unit had been used by a local school and they needed to get rid of it. It came with some laserdiscs and ... four service manuals for both the computer and laserdisc player! Apparently this runs MS-DOS 2.11 and I don't think that came with it. But unless that is a special OEM version of MS-DOS, it won't be a problem. Also included were 8 laserdiscs including three volumes of Dream Machine and two volumes of Space Archive discs. They also had several shrinkwrapped packages of IBM DOS 3.30, and I put one of them on VCM. Also listed on VCM was a copy of the IBM Guide to Operations for the Personal Computer XT, and Volume 1 of the Hardware Maintenance and Service for the Personal Computer XT (these are duplicates of what I already have.) BTW, the money received for these will go back to the school computer lab. They had quite a bit of stuff that will either be sold or sent to that great storage location in the sky. It looked like there were quite a few ISA sound cards, network hubs (10 Mb/sec), etc. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 1 02:16:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, John Lawson wrote: > PPS: Don't try to teach a pig to sing.... ;} They taught Babe to sing in that cute little movie. I figure with enough prodding we can get some of these uncouth CC list folks to realize their obnoxious ways and TRIM THEIR GAWD DAMN REPLIES!!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Tue Jun 1 03:36:19 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: NS DS8881N datasheet anyone References: <0qzn7p1m4z.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <200405311238.46206.pat@computer-refuge.org><007701c4473a$7363c490$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <40BB8B2E.5070605@gmx.net> Message-ID: <40BC4003.106@gmx.net> Thanks for the link. If someone needs one or a few, just ask. I will keep three of them. The rest (17) are for anybody who wants them. Gerold vrs schrieb: >>Hi, >>while hunting for DEC 8881 I come across a few (20) vacuum fluorescent >>display drivers DS8881N. Now I am looking for a datasheet for them. > > > There's description, and a PDF datasheet available for download at > > http://www.ee.und.ac.za/DataCDs/NationalSemiconductor/Docs/wcd00015/wcd01564.htm > > Vince From squidster at techie.com Tue Jun 1 02:59:55 2004 From: squidster at techie.com (wai-sun chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:02 2005 Subject: DZ11 pinout? Message-ID: <20040601075955.393E979003F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Hello list, My DZ11 arrived cableless, so just a simple query: Anyone out there has the pinout for the 50-pin connector on the DZ11 itself? The manual make no mention of any sort of wiring diagram. I'm planning to make an octopus cable myself with the info.. Thanks. /wai-sun -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From cheri-post at web.de Tue Jun 1 05:27:49 2004 From: cheri-post at web.de (Pierre Gebhardt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Unisys System 80 available in Germany near Osnabrueck ! Message-ID: <383571210@web.de> Hi all ! Who's interested in big old iron ? For the next 3 or 4 weeks, a hole Unisys mainframe will be available. The System 80 comes with several hard disks, a DCP-rack (with this thing, you can talk to VAXen), a high speed plotter and four big nine-track reel tape drives ! There are lots of terminals going with it. I defintely haven't enough space for it, you will need a truck to load this huge baby ! The mainframe will be scrapped in several weeks and it's apparently the last one in working condition in Europe (I don't know if it's right but the administrator told me so). I'll get several parts out of one reel tape drive and two HDDs, that's all. Contact me offline if you are interested. I can get more information about the model numbers of the parts. Cheers Pierre PS: I could make some photos, before it goes to the scrapper if nobody wants it. ________________________________________________________________ Verschicken Sie romantische, coole und witzige Bilder per SMS! Jetzt neu bei WEB.DE FreeMail: http://freemail.web.de/?mc=021193 From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Jun 1 07:19:04 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? References: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon> John sed-- > Yup - it looks just like the three that came with the -30s that I had. > Wish I still had them - one worked well, the other had dead logic and was > a parts donor - I even ponied up the $75 that GE wanted for the Service > Manual. I gave them away during a major move - but that was more thna 20 > years ago. I still have the manual here for the ICL badged variant-they called them Termiprinters. Think there's a couple of the answerback units here somewhere as well- an interesting diode array programmed thing. I 'processed' about 20 of the RO versions of them back in the 80s -think there were about 15 good ones went out the door after a major parts swapout exercise! They made a really unique and instantly recognisable sound when printing. Freight would probably be a killer as the manual is quite thick and heavy, but it's here (in NZ) if anyone wants it. And I never did find any of those displays, Tony--but that doesn't mean I won't--eventually! Dave Brown Christchurch, NZ From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 1 07:57:19 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: IS32 Optic RAM Datasheet and Steve Ciarcia's Micro D-CAM Artical Message-ID: <200406011257.i51CvJhc059104@huey.classiccmp.org> I have posted the following to my web site: http://www.dunfield.com/pub/is32.pdf <- IS32 Optic Ram datasheet http://www.dunfield.com/pub/mdcam1.pdf <- Byte "Micro D-Cam" artical part-1 http://www.dunfield.com/pub/mdcam2.pdf <= Byte "Micro D-Cam" artical part-2 I have not yet scanned the Apple code listing that accompanied part two of the byte artical - will try and do this in the next few days (it's fairly lengthy). I won't be able to leave these here forever - if anyone can take them and put them somewhere for long-term availability, that would be great! Btw, you can't access the pub directory directly, so you will have to point your browser at the specific files indicated. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Jun 1 07:39:57 2004 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Degnan Co.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Atlantic Research Corp. "Interview 40B" Message-ID: Can anyone identify the purpose of an Atlantic Research Corportation (ARC) Interview 40B Data Analyzer? c. 1984. Is this a tester for cable, modem, printer, output or pin outs? Anyone have a manual? It appears to work, in that it powers up and you can get to the menu I have reproducted below. Here is a picture I found on the internet. http://www.torontosurplus.com/air/DATA2997. JPG Here is the menu: **MENU SELECTIONS** 0 PROTOCOL SETUP 1 TRIGGER 1 2 TRIGGER 2 3 TRIGGER 3 5 TIMEOUT/INTERFACE/PRINTER 6 TRANSMIT MODE 7 INTERACTIVE TEST 8 TEST LIBRARY 9 LIBRARY UTILITIES A REMOTE TRANSFER B BCC PARAMETERS E CODE TRANSLATE CHART F DATA BUFFER -- E N D -- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 1 08:40:11 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Brian Instruments BRIKON model 723 floppy drive tester/analyzer In-Reply-To: <40BA6992.170B6AE2@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040601094011.00855370@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Kenn, I have two model 723s and a manual. I don't remember the details of the options off the top of my head but I'll try to find the manual and scan it. I THINK one of mine has some of the analog options but I don't have the cables for them and I don't know the pinouts. Perhaps you can help with that. BTW where are you loacted? Joe At 05:09 PM 5/30/04 -0600, you wrote: >I finally got around to fixing a Brian Instruments BRIKON >model 723 floppy drive tester/analyzer I purchased (broken) >some time ago. It was a pretty easy problem in the power >supply (two shorted capacitors). It now powers up, lights >blink, and I don't know how to use it :-) > >Inside the unit the EPROM stickers say "P723 Apple Dual >Analog 4/29/92", so I assume that means this puppy can >test Apple analog drives. Just for fun I tried plugging >in an old 5.24 inch IBM-PC drive, and after moving the >drive select (DS) jumper on the drive to "1", I can step >the head back and forth using buttons on the front of the >Brian. Ohh I'm a clever monkey! > >There's a lot I don't know about floppy drives, and I don't >understand most of the info the unit presents on it's front >panel or display. What's "Radial Select" mean? Or "Binary >Select?" Or "Mux Control," for that matter? What does the >following pattern mean when displayed following completion >of a test cycle? > > --. > | > | | > >Looks like a seven, but there's an extra segment lit up! >BTW, the 723 reported that my old floppy drive failed the >test, which is quite possible. I was willing to sacrifice >that drive in the interests of my education. :-) > >I would really like to get my hands on a manual for the >unit. My search in Google took me to this web site, where >someone way back in 2002 was looking for a BRIKON 723 >with the analog/alignment attachment (option R). I don't >know if that's the same as the Apple Dual Analog feature >my 723 has. There's nothing on the back of my unit that >says "option R" has been installed. My unit has one "free" >slot inside. I guess that's for an option I don't have. > >Could anyone out there provide me with a copy of the >owner's manual? Of course I'll pay for photocopy charges, >etc. Alternately, anyone out there interested in outlining >how to use this puppy? > >Thanks so much, > >Kenn > From bill at timeguy.com Tue Jun 1 08:40:24 2004 From: bill at timeguy.com (Bill Richman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Anyone have a working paper tape reader? In-Reply-To: <000801c4457c$bab76960$3e01a8c0@Sui> References: <000801c4457c$bab76960$3e01a8c0@Sui> Message-ID: <20040601134024.GC43131@outpost.timeguy.com> I'd be happy to give it a try. I've successfully read his 1802 Tiny BASIC from a tape he sent me. On Sat, May 29, 2004 at 08:59:02AM -0400, Bob Applegate wrote: > I'm trying to resurrect a copy of Tom Pittman's 6502 Tiny Basic. Tom has paper tapes of > the binaries, and was willing to send me one in exchange for reading the tape and sending > him back some sort of machine-readable version of the contents. Not having a paper tape > reader, this would be a long, dragged-out process of my manually converting the entire > tape to binary by hand. > > Is there anyone in the US that could do this for Tom? He might be happy just to have the > binary version (or the raw text) emailed to him. > > If you can help, please let me know. > > Bob From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 08:48:56 2004 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Return of Colossus marks D-Day Message-ID: Report on restoration work on BBC News site: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3754887.stm _________________________________________________________________ Watch LIVE baseball games on your computer with MLB.TV, included with MSN Premium! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200439ave/direct/01/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 1 08:58:54 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Pdp-11/60 and HP 9836 available in Houston References: <20040531215626.48019.qmail@web81009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005f01c447e0$94eddf00$8f406b43@66067007> We at the Houston Computer Museum would love to have the items. What are you asking for them? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Williams" To: Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 4:56 PM Subject: Pdp-11/60 and HP 9836 available in Houston > I have a PDP-11/60 available in Houston TX along with an HP 9836. If interested contact me off list. > > David > > From cc at corti-net.de Tue Jun 1 07:57:35 2004 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: 1802 - elf? In-Reply-To: <0960B2AC-B208-11D8-B370-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 May 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > On May 29, 2004, at 7:57 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Not sure how rare, but the 1802 is still in production (~$50), or you > > can > yipes $50 will have to wait till I get work again... Reason I ask is I > just downloaded > Elf emulators for both my palm (clea) and my ibook... I don't know what sources you were looking at. But I know that you can buy CDP 1802 AE CPUs for about 4,50 EUR (even less if qty. >10), I've bought two of them some weeks ago. Christian From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 1 09:21:24 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: selectric consoles References: <0qzn7p1m4z.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <16572.37092.438000.848655@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Andrew" == Andrew K Bressen writes: Andrew> I think Selectrics are pretty cool; I'd kinda like one I Andrew> could use as a printer, and if it could be a full serial tty Andrew> that would be even cooler. Andrew> So far, I've found that IBM made the 1050 and the 2741 Andrew> selectric-based console terminals, both of which were large, Andrew> heavy, and not very reliable. I would describe them as modest in size, fairly heavy but not outrageously so, and extremely reliable. They were also quite a lot faster than teletypes. I don't think I ever saw a selectric console fail, while Model 33s died regularly. (Then again, that made sense, because 33s are rated "intermittent use", they aren't supposed to be used 24 hours a day as so often happened in timesharing shops.) If you want sturdy, there's the Flexowriter, or (perhaps -- I have no real experience with these) the Teletype model 35. Both of those are bigger and heavier than a Selectric, and the 35 certainly is slower. paul From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 1 09:32:53 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Chip Design - East Coast Message-ID: <024801c447e5$53a93ee0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> I met a real IC designer in a Job placement function located east of NYC. I thought that all such jobs in the USA would be located in IBM,Silicon Valley and the outer rings of Boston and told him he should spend a month in Silicon Valley reaclimating himself to the current state of the art. Aside from that he says he really doesn't want to move his family. I wonder if he has a choice. My question to the list is should he move to SV or does anybody know of places to go in the Connecticut area? John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 1 09:35:10 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Atlantic Research Corp. "Interview 40B" References: Message-ID: <014501c447e5$a49186a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Sounds to me like a protocol analyzer. Typically used to watch both sides of a conversation unobtrusively. The ones I worked with were for RS232 serial data. Very useful for debugging communications programs. The link appears to be broken though. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Degnan Co." To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 7:39 AM Subject: Atlantic Research Corp. "Interview 40B" > Can anyone identify the purpose of an Atlantic Research Corportation > (ARC) Interview 40B Data Analyzer? c. 1984. > > Is this a tester for cable, modem, printer, output or pin outs? > Anyone have a manual? It appears to work, in that it powers up and > you can get to the menu I have reproducted below. Here is a picture > I found on the internet. http://www.torontosurplus.com/air/DATA2997. > JPG > Here is the menu: > **MENU SELECTIONS** > 0 PROTOCOL SETUP > 1 TRIGGER 1 > 2 TRIGGER 2 > 3 TRIGGER 3 > > 5 TIMEOUT/INTERFACE/PRINTER > 6 TRANSMIT MODE > 7 INTERACTIVE TEST > 8 TEST LIBRARY > 9 LIBRARY UTILITIES > A REMOTE TRANSFER > B BCC PARAMETERS > > E CODE TRANSLATE CHART > F DATA BUFFER > > -- E N D -- > > > > > > > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Jun 1 10:08:36 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: a crate of 10 base network cards are available. References: <013801c4474d$edb59210$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <200405312128.RAA08043@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <004601c447ea$5025a420$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> these are all isa 10 base Ethernet cards. ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: Sent: Monday, May 31, 2004 2:24 PM Subject: Re: a crate of 10 base network cards are available. > > a crate of 10 base network cards are available. > > I'm not sure what this means. There are ten cards available, or there > is some unspecified number of 10baseX cards (for whatever values of X), > or what? > > > various mfrs. most are new in packaging... > > anyone can use? trades? offers? > > What bus(ses), and what media interfaces? I'm interested in hearing > about (and potentially buying or trading for) SBus, PCI, ISA, NuBus, > Qbus, 9U VME, USB, and SCSI Ethernets. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 10:22:54 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computing in the Southwest (U.S.A.) References: <014501c447e5$a49186a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: I'll be on a road trip at the end of June driving from Phoenix, AZ to Houston, TX. Any interesting spots to check out on the way? I'm hoping to hit the Johnson Space Center in Houston, but I'll need to see what my schedule looks like (It's a business road-trip :( From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Tue Jun 1 10:33:10 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms Message-ID: I visited a hospital where they placed the computer room in the basement. They installed a sump pump with a battery backup and placed all of the wiring overhead in trays so it wouldn't get wet. I guess they thought the computers would run if wet. They also placed a large laser printer and 8 pallets of paper in the computer room, perhaps a slight fire hazard. Mike From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 1 10:36:45 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: selectric consoles In-Reply-To: <0qzn7p1m4z.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qzn7p1m4z.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <1086104205.5938.61.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> On Sun, 2004-05-30 at 17:22, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > I think Selectrics are pretty cool; > I'd kinda like one I could use as a printer, > and if it could be a full serial tty that would > be even cooler. > > So far, I've found that IBM made the 1050 and the 2741 selectric-based console > terminals, both of which were large, heavy, and not very reliable. The 1052 console terminal was the largest of the ilk and was used in heavy duty applications (such as the console terminal for 360's). The 2741 was used in lighter duty applications (such as hardcopy terminals in terminal rooms). I don't know about them *not* being very reliable. I used a 1052 as the terminal for a custom microcomputer I did in the mid-70s. I was rugged as hell. It also required a fair amount of dealing with (tilt-and-rotate codes anyone?) since there was no controller with it so I had to build an interface to deal with the individual pick relays. I don't expect you'd find a serial version of anything other than some of the 2741's. Then it might not even be ASCII (IBM was EBCDIC at the time). > > Did IBM ever do any better, like say a serial module for a selectric III? > > I know some of the Wheelwriter typewriters had serial ports, > but the golf ball type elements are just too much cooler. > > I found some web pages that talk about Trendata ttys based on selectrics, > but very little hard info; anyone here know anything about them? > > I also remember the ByteWriter and similar contraptions that strapped a > bunch of solenoids on top of a typewriter keyboard, but while > entertainingly kludgy, that lacks a certain degree of elegance. > > --akb -- TTFN - Guy From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 1 10:38:09 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: I did a bit of looking, but couldn't find a cheap home brew solution, so I'm asking here to pick the brains of the smart people on the list (or dumb ones, I'm not picky). I just added a 4th monitor to my desk. I have it stacked on top of another monitor. However, when I turn it on, the one below it, and the one next to it have their images distorted. I'm guessing it is some kind of EMI that is screwing things up. The distortion is noticeable and annoying. My current solution is to turn off the 4th monitor when not in use. However, I'd like to know if there is any kind of a cheap home brew EMI filter I can put between the monitors. Something along the lines of wrapping the monitor it foil, or putting some barrier between them. I figure people on this list may have run into this before, and/or know enough about the topic to be able to give me some decent advise. Oh and in case anyone cares: a while back I asked about a Mac keyboard/mouse tunneling program. I tracked it down, its called "Remote Mouse & Key" (go figure). So far it works most of the time under OS 9. I've noticed it sometimes fails to reconnect after a reboot (not a big deal, I just go back into the control panel for it and reconnect with the remote machine). More annoyingly, periodically, the keyboard/mouse will stop responding. I think it happens with the remote machine goes to sleep, but I haven't been able to verify that yet. Other than those issues, it seems to work fine, and with the addition of my 4th monitor, I no longer have the lag I had with Timbuktu. -chris From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 1 10:40:03 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: selectric consoles References: <0qzn7p1m4z.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> <1086104205.5938.61.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <16572.41811.474446.836878@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: Guy> I don't expect you'd find a serial version of anything other Guy> than some of the 2741's. Then it might not even be ASCII (IBM Guy> was EBCDIC at the time). Not EBCDIC either, I believe. I remember DEC OS support for the 2741, with several different translate tables for "Correspondence code". You had to know the exact code used by your particular machine to get it to work right. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 1 10:42:21 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield References: Message-ID: <16572.41949.77973.925760@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "chris" == chris writes: chris> I did a bit of looking, but couldn't find a cheap home brew chris> solution, so I'm asking here to pick the brains of the smart chris> people on the list (or dumb ones, I'm not picky). chris> I just added a 4th monitor to my desk. I have it stacked on chris> top of another monitor. However, when I turn it on, the one chris> below it, and the one next to it have their images chris> distorted. I'm guessing it is some kind of EMI that is chris> screwing things up. The distortion is noticeable and annoying. chris> My current solution is to turn off the 4th monitor when not in chris> use. However, I'd like to know if there is any kind of a cheap chris> home brew EMI filter I can put between the monitors. Something chris> along the lines of wrapping the monitor it foil, or putting chris> some barrier between them. Try a piece of sheet steel between the monitors.. You're probably suffering from stray magnetic fields. paul From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 1 10:49:26 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: >Try a piece of sheet steel between the monitors.. You're probably >suffering from stray magnetic fields. Any particular kind of steel? Will the metal from Air conditioning ducts work? (I can get flat peices of that cheap at the local Home Depot). -chris From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Jun 1 10:56:23 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040601115600.0245f508@192.168.0.1> At 11:49 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote: >Any particular kind of steel? The kind magnets will stick to. Hold the magnet on the screen of a CRT to see similar distortion. Ed From kirill at lava.net Tue Jun 1 10:58:34 2004 From: kirill at lava.net (Kirill Levchenko) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Classic Computing in the Southwest (U.S.A.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <89178A63-B3E4-11D8-A794-000A95E41A42@lava.net> On Tuesday, June 1, 2004, at 08:22 AM, Jason McBrien wrote: > I'll be on a road trip at the end of June driving from Phoenix, AZ to > Houston, TX. Any interesting spots to check out on the way? I'm hoping > to > hit the Johnson Space Center in Houston, but I'll need to see what my > schedule looks like (It's a business road-trip :( I hear the surplus store(s) at Los Alamos, New Mexico as well as the monthly LANL auction are worth visiting, though I've never been there myself. Kirill From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 1 11:09:55 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield References: Message-ID: <16572.43603.726801.45327@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "chris" == chris writes: >> Try a piece of sheet steel between the monitors.. You're probably >> suffering from stray magnetic fields. chris> Any particular kind of steel? Will the metal from Air chris> conditioning ducts work? (I can get flat peices of that cheap chris> at the local Home Depot). I'd say "anything that magnets stick to" (which means most kinds other than certain stainless alloys). Purists would use mu-metal; if the plain steel works, mu-metal would work better. But it's probably hard to find. paul From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 1 11:10:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Chip Design - East Coast In-Reply-To: <024801c447e5$53a93ee0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, John Allain wrote: > My question to the list is should he move to SV or does anybody know of > places to go in the Connecticut area? Tell him to move to India. It's too crowded here as it is. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 1 11:16:01 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: >>Any particular kind of steel? > >The kind magnets will stick to. >Hold the magnet on the screen of a CRT to see similar distortion. I know the stuff I can get cheap is not magnetic. But Home Depot probably has something that is, so I'll look around. Thanks! -chris From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 1 11:15:31 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040601115600.0245f508@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > At 11:49 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote: > >Any particular kind of steel? > > The kind magnets will stick to. > Hold the magnet on the screen of a CRT to see similar distortion. Please don't do that unless you want a semi-permanent distortion field in the middle of your screen. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 1 11:37:44 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: >> The kind magnets will stick to. >> Hold the magnet on the screen of a CRT to see similar distortion. > >Please don't do that unless you want a semi-permanent distortion field in >the middle of your screen. Don't worry, I don't keep magnets anywhere near my computers. So I couldn't test it even if I wanted to. -chris From Pres at macro-inc.com Tue Jun 1 11:31:28 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: <16572.43603.726801.45327@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040601121935.0317f5d8@192.168.0.1> At 12:09 PM 6/1/2004, you wrote: >Purists would use mu-metal; if the plain steel works, mu-metal would >work better. But it's probably hard to find. Plus MuMetal is sensitive to mechanical working. Beating a piece to straighten it out will reduce it's effectiveness. Galvanized sheet steel used in AC ducting should be fine. As would a skin from a computer chassis. Layering might help. Also, the sheet might need to extend past the sides, and front and back of the monitor to intercept lines of flux from source. I wonder if degaussing the target monitor (one with interference), while the source monitor (creating the interference) was operating, would help? Some monitors have a built in degaussing function. Others do it when they power up. The above all assumes a magnetic interference. If it's localized to one, or a few, spots on the screen, with color shifts, that's likely what it is. Of course that gets me to thinking of TEMPEST and someone reading your monitor from out in the street. :-) Ed From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Jun 1 11:41:29 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20040601115600.0245f508@192.168.0.1> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20040601115600.0245f508@192.168.0.1> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Ed Kelleher wrote: > > The kind magnets will stick to. > Hold the magnet on the screen of a CRT to see similar distortion. Are you volunteering to have the monitor repaired after he does that??? Many times such a course of action will magnetize the shadow mask and other parts of the CRT beyond the ability of the internal degaussing coils to correct. But O well..... To the original poster: As for stacking tubes one on top of the other - if it's just the one that's causing the magnetic pollution, I'd be inclined to chuck it (at your appropriate nearby E-Cycling facility of course!) and just get another. They're common as dirt and as folks trade up to LCD screens, CRT monitors are hitting the recycle streams in epidemic quantities. Nobody wants a 100-pound 23" CRT that takes up half the desk anymore... If you must shield them, then use reasonably thick (1/8" to maybe 3/16") *iron* sheets if you can it - magnetic steel if you can't. And Home Depot. Lowe's, etc are going to stick it to you if you buy such materials there... it's unbelievably outrageous what the charge for bar stock, angles, and sheets.... any little funk metal shop or machine shop will have tons of this stuff lying around for cheap... Just my 200 millidollar. John From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 1 12:03:01 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: >I wonder if degaussing the target monitor (one with interference), >while the source monitor (creating the interference) was operating, would >help? > >Some monitors have a built in degaussing function. >Others do it when they power up. Nope, doesn't seem to make a difference. (one of the two distorted monitors has a degaus button, the other I believe has a built in degauser and I tried power cycling that one. Neither saw any change). >The above all assumes a magnetic interference. >If it's localized to one, or a few, spots on the screen, with color shifts, >that's likely what it is. What happens is, the image on the monitor on the bottom starts wobbling and bouncing. And the scan lines become very pronounced. The monitor to the side flickers and wobbles a bit. This only happens when the top monitor is turned on and "charged" (when I first turn it on, there is about a 1 second pause before you hear the CRT charge, during that pause there is no distortion). I can remove the distortion by simply turning off the top monitor. Also, moving it about a foot away gets rid of it as well (so worst case, I can install a shelf on the wall a little higher up. Right now its sitting on a plastic monitor shelf that rests directly on top of the monitor below). I'll see if I can try a newer, possibly better monitor as the top one and see if the problem goes away (the one I picked to use is an older monitor. Since it will not be used too heavily, I didn't want to sacrifice a good monitor... but I'd rather have no problems then save on a good monitor) >Of course that gets me to thinking of TEMPEST and someone reading your >monitor from out in the street. :-) Humm... well, unless they are turning on and off their equipment at the exact same time I turn on and off the top monitor... it seems unlikely. Of course, if the screens are seeing this much distortion, I'm curious what the 4 CRTs pointing at my chair is doing to my brain! -chris From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 1 12:07:14 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: > As for stacking tubes one on top of the other - if it's just the one >that's causing the magnetic pollution, I'd be inclined to chuck it (at >your appropriate nearby E-Cycling facility of course!) and just get >another. They're common as dirt and as folks trade up to LCD screens, CRT >monitors are hitting the recycle streams in epidemic quantities. Nobody >wants a 100-pound 23" CRT that takes up half the desk anymore... That thought crossed my mind on my previous email. I picked the monitor I'm useing because it is old and not a very nice one. Since it will spend most of its life idle, it seemed a good task for it. But it did dawn on me that the fact that it is old may very well be the source of the problem. I'm going to try swapping it for a newer monitor later today and see if the problem goes away. > And Home Depot. Lowe's, etc are going to stick it to you if you buy such >materials there... it's unbelievably outrageous what the charge for bar >stock, angles, and sheets.... any little funk metal shop or machine shop >will have tons of this stuff lying around for cheap... I'm not sure where else around me to buy the stuff. I'll have to ask a friend of mine that does metal sculptures where he buys his steel. There has to be someplace better around here. -chris From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 1 12:13:17 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406011213.17556.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 01 June 2004 11:37, chris wrote: > >> The kind magnets will stick to. > >> Hold the magnet on the screen of a CRT to see similar distortion. > > > >Please don't do that unless you want a semi-permanent distortion > > field in the middle of your screen. > > Don't worry, I don't keep magnets anywhere near my computers. So I > couldn't test it even if I wanted to. Well, I bet you have hard drives laying around with pretty strong magnets in them... even my RL02s have some pretty hefty magnets that attach the platter to the drive motor. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Jun 1 12:48:41 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? Message-ID: Greetings all; I'm heading off to DC tomorrow, and it occurred to me while there are all the usual haunts for museums (NASM, Holocaust, monuments, so on, so forth) that there quite possibly is a computing museum, or at least "Warehouse o' Junk" somewhere in DC. Anyone have suggestions as to things to look at along this vein? JP From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 12:58:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Anyone have a working paper tape reader? Message-ID: <200406011758.KAA26707@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I sent Tom a machine readable copy of the 6502 a couple of years back. He later got another copy from someone else and creditted them with supplying him the data. I guess he needs yet another copy. I wonder if he is getting a little forgetful and losing things. I have it someplace and can get it to you or him. It'll take me a day or to to find it. If after a couple days, I don't get back, remind me. I'm working on a couple of other projects that have higher priority. Dwight >From: "Bob Applegate" > >I'm trying to resurrect a copy of Tom Pittman's 6502 Tiny Basic. Tom has paper tapes of >the binaries, and was willing to send me one in exchange for reading the tape and sending >him back some sort of machine-readable version of the contents. Not having a paper tape >reader, this would be a long, dragged-out process of my manually converting the entire >tape to binary by hand. > >Is there anyone in the US that could do this for Tom? He might be happy just to have the >binary version (or the raw text) emailed to him. > >If you can help, please let me know. > >Bob > From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 1 12:47:30 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 02 Jun 2004 00:19:04 +1200." <04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <200406011747.SAA24851@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Dave Brown" said: > I still have the manual here for the ICL badged variant-they called them > Termiprinters. I had the manual for that variant too. Unfortunately all I have left is the binder, the manual went about 20yrs ago when no-one was interested in keeping such things. We used to have a termiprinter that clattered away in the corner of the office - to everyones annoyance! They're not suited to an office environment :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 1 13:13:43 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can no longer maintain the Retrocomputing Archive site (http://www.retroarchive.org). Is there anyone here willing to take over the site? tnx. g. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Tue Jun 1 13:26:42 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? References: Message-ID: Basement of the Smithsonian American History Museum. AWESOME collection of computing devices, from abacaii, mechanical tabulators, voting machines, typewriters, through ENIAC (I belive they have the accumulator panels) Enigma machines (They have the three AND four rotor types!) Apple I (Original Homebrew computer club prototype, wood case) SOL, Lisa, early Sun workstations, the first PDP/11-based fingerprint scanner for the FBI, an old Bendix mainframe the same green color as their 60's vintage washing machines, mockups of SAGE, HP calculators, stacks of old magazines, you name it. It's *really* impressive. Other collections may be bigger, but they have a lot of historically signifigant machines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 1:48 PM Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? > > Greetings all; > > I'm heading off to DC tomorrow, and it occurred to me while there are all > the usual haunts for museums (NASM, Holocaust, monuments, so on, so > forth) that there quite possibly is a computing museum, or at least > "Warehouse o' Junk" somewhere in DC. > > Anyone have suggestions as to things to look at along this vein? > > JP > > From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Tue Jun 1 13:31:03 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> Gene Buckle wrote: >I can no longer maintain the Retrocomputing Archive site >(http://www.retroarchive.org). Is there anyone here willing to take over >the site? > >tnx. > >g. > > > > > > Gene, I believe that I can do that for you. My company will let me colocate a server at our location. It would be an honor. James From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 1 13:40:45 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, John Lawson wrote: > And Home Depot. Lowe's, etc are going to stick it to you if you buy such > materials there... it's unbelievably outrageous what the charge for bar > stock, angles, and sheets.... any little funk metal shop or machine shop > will have tons of this stuff lying around for cheap... I can certainly attest to that. An 8 foot length of 1 1/4" angle aluminum costs $15. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 1 13:56:09 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> On Mon, 2004-05-31 at 19:45, John Lawson wrote: > What is being described is almost surely a Terminet - an ASCII > teleprinter using a continuous rotating band with upright 'fingers' > containing the individual characters - these passed in front of 72 > hammers, and behind them were the ribbon and paper respectively. There > were three complete sets of character fingers, thus cutting the 'latency' > of the band in thirds. When the right character arrived at the correct > position on the page, the opposing hammer fired and imprinted it. > The fingers were easily removable allowing for alternate fonts and > character sets. I had one of those, and loved it! Until it got mechanically flakey and I tossed it off the balcony (I have photos). Wish I had it now! Not light. Annoying timing to send chars. Serial I think, don't recall. Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. (Though nothing beats a Kleinschmidt drum printer for sheer pointless racket.) From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 1 13:56:26 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... References: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> FYI - www.retroarchive.org is currently hosted at no charge on my servers. Whoever takes over that site is welcome to keep it there, at no charge. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rice" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 1:31 PM Subject: Re: Retroarchive.... > Gene Buckle wrote: > > >I can no longer maintain the Retrocomputing Archive site > >(http://www.retroarchive.org). Is there anyone here willing to take over > >the site? > > > >tnx. > > > >g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gene, I believe that I can do that for you. My company will let me > colocate a server at our location. It would be an honor. > > James > > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 1 14:04:36 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: chris "Re: OT: CRT EMI Shield" (Jun 1, 13:07) References: Message-ID: <10406012004.ZM1587@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 13:07, chris wrote: > I'm going to try swapping it for a newer monitor later today and see if > the problem goes away. I had a similar problem, and the best solution did indeed turn out to be using a different monitor. > I'm not sure where else around me to buy the stuff. I'll have to ask a > friend of mine that does metal sculptures where he buys his steel. There > has to be someplace better around here. I tried steel sheet -- ex-PC tower case, in fact, about 1/16" thick (yes, it was a heavy old one) and found that it didn't make enough difference, even when extended some way (too far for comfort) in front of the screens. And don't put a magnet close to the tube. The risk is not magnetising the shadow mask, but distorting it, and once that's happened there's no cure. Unless you hold the tube pointy end down and drop it, in the hope that the bulge will flatten out with the shock ;-) But then you might have another problem with that tube. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Jun 1 14:06:19 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> References: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ whirrziziziziziz BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK etc etc etc... Cheers John From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 1 14:12:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:05 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal Message-ID: <200406011912.MAA26741@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "John Lawson" > > > >On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > >> >> Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > >whirrziziziziziz BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK etc >etc etc... > > > Cheers > >John > > > Hi This sounds like an old belt type epson printer I have. It is missing one character print head :( I've been looking for more of these machines but it seems they are quire rare. It could really spit out paper fast. All those hammers and the band made it quite fast. I tried to contact epson about it but they had no idea what I was talking about. It seens that when they moved manufacturing to Japan, they lost most all of the old info about machines made in the US. Dwight From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 1 14:12:17 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: In message <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> "Jay West" wrote: > FYI - www.retroarchive.org is currently hosted at no charge on my servers. > Whoever takes over that site is welcome to keep it there, at no charge. Well, in that case, I'd love to. Why move the files over to a different server if it's already working fine where it is? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... This Tagline is for sale. Call 1-800-TAG-THIS! From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 1 14:17:14 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: DZ11 pinout? In-Reply-To: "wai-sun chia" "DZ11 pinout?" (Jun 1, 15:59) References: <20040601075955.393E979003F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <10406012017.ZM1598@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 15:59, wai-sun chia wrote: > Hello list, > My DZ11 arrived cableless, so just a simple query: > > Anyone out there has the pinout for the 50-pin connector on the DZ11 itself? > The manual make no mention of any sort of wiring diagram. > > I'm planning to make an octopus cable myself with the info.. This is for a DZ11-A/B/E, M7819. The 20mA versions (DZ11-C/D/F, M7814) are different. The information isn't in either the User Manual or the Technical Manual, so I resorted to reading circuit diagrams from the module assembly microfiche. It's not very clear in parts, but the pinout is: Chan. TxD RxD SG DTR DCD RI 0 19 21 22 1 2 20 1 23 25 26 3 4 24 2 27 29 30 5 6 28 3 31 33 34 7 8 32 4 35 37 38 9 10 36 5 39 41 42 11 12 40 6 43 45 46 13 14 44 7 47 49 50 15 16 48 Pins 17 and 18 are also ground. On the DB25 end, TxD is pin 2, RxD is pin 3, SG is pin 7, DTR is pin 20, DCD is pin 8, RI is pin 22. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 1 14:24:04 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... References: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <02ea01c4480e$005db620$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Philip wrote... > Well, in that case, I'd love to. Why move the files over to a different > server if it's already working fine where it is? Not to mention the content of www.retroarchive.org is quite large, and even with my multiple 100mb connections moving it would take a while probably, unless the receiving host has pretty large pipes too. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Tue Jun 1 14:26:07 2004 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: PDP-8 stuff References: <1071478379.2811.40.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <008001c4480e$4a25f4c0$2101a8c0@solsmineral> Dear Guy, Refering to a question you posted in December 2003, I wonder if you ever found information about the BA08A expansion box for 8/L (manual, maintenance, diagrams), other than module utization chart. Best regards, Philippe Sonnet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: PDP-8 stuff > I'm looking for information on the expansion boxes for the "older" > PDP-8's (ie 8/I and 8/L). Specifically: > BA08A > BM12L > MM8I > > Ideally I'd like to find user's manuals and maintenance manuals for > them, but at this point anything would be useful. > > Of course, I'll also re-iterate my call for information on the DF32D > also. > > Thanks. > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 1 14:27:51 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Found Today - Sony SMC-2000, etc. In-Reply-To: <40BC2257.988BEE86@rain.org> References: <40BC2257.988BEE86@rain.org> Message-ID: <20040601122216.W30271@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 31 May 2004, Marvin Johnston wrote: > Something I've wanted for quite a while is a Sony SMC-2000 computer with > the LDP-2000 laserdisc player. Today I finally got it! This unit had > been used by a local school and they needed to get rid of it. It came > with some laserdiscs and ... four service manuals for both the computer > and laserdisc player! Apparently this runs MS-DOS 2.11 and I don't think > that came with it. But unless that is a special OEM version of MS-DOS, > it won't be a problem. YES, it IS a "special OEM version". "Regular" MS-DOS 2.11 does not support 3.5" diskettes, MODE.COM is substantially different, and there'll be a few more minor differences. If you can get a copy of the correct MODE.COM, you can patch it to work with 3.20 or later by serching out the MOV AH, 30 INT 21h code. OR run it with SETVER on DOS 5.00 or above (6.2x would be best) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 1 14:42:39 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> References: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20040601124141.X30271@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > I had one of those, and loved it! Until it got mechanically flakey and I > tossed it off the balcony (I have photos). Wish I had it now! > . . . > Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. When running? or when it hit the ground under your balcony? From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jun 1 15:06:42 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: scp platforms In-Reply-To: <200405281500.i4SF0Jhc023788@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200405281500.i4SF0Jhc023788@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:00 -0500 5/28/04, Jochen wrote: > > scp? Never used it. How portable is it to different platforms? >I don't know how portable a protocol specification is. ;-) >But there are implementations at least for Unix (like) OSes and M$Win. >The problem with scp is that it makes heavy use of crypto algorithms >that you usually find in quite heavyweight crypto libs. >I don't want to implement this on a PDP-11. ;-( >-- I can add NeXTStep 3.3 and Mac OS 8.6 (and OS X) and Solaris to the list of SCP-capable platforms from personal experience. I assume there are more. Most implementations of SCP that I've seen come bundled with SSH, which does Telnet-like duties in an encrypted way as far as I can see. If anyone needs pointers to any of the above software, ping me and I'll dig them up. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jun 1 15:07:12 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Mac startup and death chimes database In-Reply-To: <200405282051.i4SKpLhc028336@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200405282051.i4SKpLhc028336@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 15:51 -0500 5/28/04, Chris wrote: >Somewhere I have an Apple Spec database that includes the noise each Mac >makes when it reports a problem. I don't see it on my hard drive now, so >I must have archived it at some point. I'll have to dig around and figure >out where it went. http://www.mactracker.ca/ But not all the "death chimes" are in place, in the version I have. But the IIci is. There's also a lot of other useful info about Mac Models there. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jun 1 15:03:11 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Classic Computing in the Southwest (U.S.A.) In-Reply-To: <200406011612.i51GCvhc061043@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406011612.i51GCvhc061043@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 11:12 -0500 6/1/04, Jason McBrien wrote: >I'll be on a road trip at the end of June driving from Phoenix, AZ to >Houston, TX. Any interesting spots to check out on the way? I'm hoping to >hit the Johnson Space Center in Houston, but I'll need to see what my >schedule looks like (It's a business road-trip :( Electronics Plus, in Kerrville, Texas, which is on I-10 (which I assume is how you'll be driving. Contact info: Cindy Croxton, sales@elecplus.com, phone 830-792-3400. The dust is free. I recommend you email in advance to get summer hours and let Cindy know you are interested in classic stuff. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 1 15:43:27 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: OT Re: general electric terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040601134130.S30271@newshell.lmi.net> > > PPS: Don't try to teach a pig to sing.... ;} On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > They taught Babe to sing in that cute little movie. I figure with enough > prodding we can get some of these uncouth CC list folks to realize their > obnoxious ways and TRIM THEIR GAWD DAMN REPLIES!!! Not really. Milli Vanilli did the singing, and Babe just lip synched From brianmahoney at look.ca Tue Jun 1 13:37:57 2004 From: brianmahoney at look.ca (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, it looks like this !(was general electric terminal?) References: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> The saga : I went back to Goodwill this morning and the Terminet30 was still sitting in the same spot OUTSIDE the store in an alcove. I went in and asked for a stealdeal but ended up 'donating' 20 bucks for it. Backed up my Saturn wagon and found out why it was still sitting in the alcove. Must weigh 80 pounds. The thing is in very good condition, no dents or dings or cracks that I can see. Inside is very clean. Console, as you will see, is perfect. Keys still have a very solid feel. Underneath the console there was a yellow tag that said "do not use" so who knows what is wrong with it but it looks great. I hefted it to my backyard shed, thank goodness for my kids' little red wagon. There it sits with the console and tape unit removed. Nothing else would come apart, the damn selectric on the top is where all the weight is I think. No way of unplugging it from the stand. It's in Scarborough. If anyone wants it they can have it for $21.60 Canadian plus whatever shipping YOU can arrange. Or pick it up, I'll help you to the car. Here are the pics I took of it : follow the links from this one : http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/terminet1.jpg numerically to this one : http://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/terminet15.jpg There are 15 shots of the unit. I should have taken one of the inside too. Seriously, if no one wants it, what the hell do I do with it? I collect portables! And what vintage is it? 60's? Later? Brian Mahoney From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 1 15:52:54 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, James Rice wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: > > >I can no longer maintain the Retrocomputing Archive site > >(http://www.retroarchive.org). Is there anyone here willing to take over > >the site? > > > >tnx. > > > >g. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gene, I believe that I can do that for you. My company will let me > colocate a server at our location. It would be an honor. > > James > Thanks James. The site only really needs a maintainer. Jay West has been kind enough to host the site for the past few years and unless there is some difficulty with that, I don't expect that to change. (Thanks Jay!) g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 1 15:56:44 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: > FYI - www.retroarchive.org is currently hosted at no charge on my servers. > Whoever takes over that site is welcome to keep it there, at no charge. > > Jay West /me stamps "You da man!" on Jay's forehead :) Thanks Jay! g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 1 16:00:23 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > > > Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > whirrziziziziziz BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK etc > etc etc... > I had one of those when I was in high school. It was a Terminet 300 and didn't have any keyboard attached to it. Right after I got it (in trade for a wrecked R/C helicopter of all things), I loaned it to a friend that discovered the hard way that Form Feed _really_ meant Feed All 2500 Sheets of Paper Out of The Box And On To The Floor. He wasn't amused. :) Worked great connected to my Royal AlphaTronic PC though. Just had to make sure it sent the right number of linefeeds instead of a formfeed. :) g. From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jun 1 15:59:37 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: PDP-8 stuff In-Reply-To: <008001c4480e$4a25f4c0$2101a8c0@solsmineral> References: <1071478379.2811.40.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <008001c4480e$4a25f4c0$2101a8c0@solsmineral> Message-ID: <1086123577.5919.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 12:26, Philippe Sonnet wrote: > Dear Guy, > > Refering to a question you posted in December 2003, I wonder if you ever > found information about the BA08A expansion box for 8/L (manual, > maintenance, diagrams), other than module utization chart. > No, I never did. I have cables to hook up an 8/L to an expansion box but don't know where to plug the cables into the expansion box. :-( > Best regards, > > Philippe Sonnet > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 10:53 AM > Subject: PDP-8 stuff > > > > I'm looking for information on the expansion boxes for the "older" > > PDP-8's (ie 8/I and 8/L). Specifically: > > BA08A > > BM12L > > MM8I > > > > Ideally I'd like to find user's manuals and maintenance manuals for > > them, but at this point anything would be useful. > > > > Of course, I'll also re-iterate my call for information on the DF32D > > also. > > > > Thanks. > > -- > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 1 16:03:24 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: FA: MicroVAX cards & drives, prototype Motorola PCX 7410 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040601170324.00987a80@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just finished listing a bunch of DEC MicroVAX cards and disk drives on E-bay including some king of SCSI converter card. Also listed a prototype Motorola.Atmel PCX 7410 PowerPC CPU. See . Joe From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 1 17:01:12 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: Ok, due to the number of requests I have recieved (and like a dope, accidently deleted the lot. *bangs head on desk*) I'd like those that are still interested to email me again by 4pm Pacific Time. I'll then toss your names in my recycle box and pick the lucky vic^H^H^Hwinner. Thanks for all the replies! g. From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Tue Jun 1 16:55:03 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <40BCFB37.5020706@vzavenue.net> I see no reason to move it either. I wasn't arawre of where it was being hosted. James Jay West wrote: >FYI - www.retroarchive.org is currently hosted at no charge on my servers. >Whoever takes over that site is welcome to keep it there, at no charge. > >Jay West >----- Original Message ----- >From: "James Rice" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 1:31 PM >Subject: Re: Retroarchive.... > > > > >>Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> >> >>>I can no longer maintain the Retrocomputing Archive site >>>(http://www.retroarchive.org). Is there anyone here willing to take over >>>the site? >>> >>>tnx. >>> >>>g. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>Gene, I believe that I can do that for you. My company will let me >>colocate a server at our location. It would be an honor. >> >>James >> >> >> >> >> > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Tue Jun 1 16:57:27 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Retroarchive.... In-Reply-To: <02ea01c4480e$005db620$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <40BCCB67.4020405@vzavenue.net> <029e01c4480a$24652de0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <02ea01c4480e$005db620$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <40BCFBC7.5040107@vzavenue.net> Jay West wrote: >Philip wrote... > > >>Well, in that case, I'd love to. Why move the files over to a different >>server if it's already working fine where it is? >> >> >Not to mention the content of www.retroarchive.org is quite large, and even >with my multiple 100mb connections moving it would take a while probably, >unless the receiving host has pretty large pipes too. > >Jay > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > You've probably got a bigger pipe than mine. I only have pair of 100mb connections. James From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Jun 1 16:44:45 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Re(2): COSMAC BASIC hex dump References: <1084560606.1943.18.camel@dhcp-250048.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <000c01c44821$aa35f500$6401a8c0@hal9000> Tom, Did you forget about me or just busy ? If you need my address again I can send it "offline" to you. I will reimburse any shipping costs if you request same. Thanks again in advance. Best regards, Steven Well, I don't want to part with the manual, just offering copies of the hex dump, assuming that usable software for the 1802 was in short supply. The BASIC section is pretty short. The rest of the book is hardware specs for the cards, and is too much to copy. If you want the BASIC section copied I can do that... gimme your mailing address and I'll which whiz it off to you. Tom, I would be happy to pay postage plus some beer money for the manual. I have a "working" COSMAC in my hobby lab. It would be nice to have the manual. I am in So California. If this sounds good I can send you a mailing address "offline" and we can swap info. Thanks a bunch ! Best regards, Steven P.S. You are correct in that it builds anything but character ! I just moved my lab (ugh) and all it's contents (kilopounds), and inevitably paused to look at junk along the way, and found my RCA COSMAC DEVELOPMENT KIT manual. It's got a hex listing (remember those) for a tiny BASIC for the 1802. If it's not already commonly available I'll (postal) mail a copy so's you can have all the true vintage experience of typing in hex dumps then finding the errors. I quite distinctly recall the abominable process of typing in ANIMALS or somesuch nonsense from the SWTP docs way back when. Ugh. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, and no, it did not build character. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 1 17:17:53 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040601221753.GB17155@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 02:26:42PM -0400, Jason McBrien wrote: > Basement of the Smithsonian American History Museum. AWESOME collection of > computing devices... the first PDP/11-based fingerprint scanner for the FBI... If it's the large machine in the corner, off the main path (just past the Straight-8), that should be a PDP-15. It's definitely not 16-bits. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Jun-2004 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.2 F (-67.9 C) Windchill -133.6 F (-92 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.1 kts Grid 110 Barometer 658.1 mb (11462. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 1 17:20:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:06 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > I had one of those, and loved it! Until it got mechanically flakey and I > tossed it off the balcony (I have photos). Wish I had it now! Awesome! Post them please! :) > Not light. Annoying timing to send chars. Serial I think, don't recall. > > Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. Or to have fun throwing it off a balcony again, eh? ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 1 17:23:46 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040601222346.GC17155@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:40:45AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, John Lawson wrote: > > > And Home Depot. Lowe's, etc are going to stick it to you if you buy such > > materials there... it's unbelievably outrageous what the charge for bar > > I can certainly attest to that. An 8 foot length of 1 1/4" angle > aluminum costs $15. Speaking of which... does anyone know where I could order a few lengths of 2" wide x 1/2" or 3/8" thick aluminum bar? It would have to be someplace that could send it either directly to me to me via the Post Office; or to my boss in Madison, WI, via whatever means, so that he could bring it to me when he arrives in October. It's for a frame for my SBC-6120 - I would need two pieces approx 16" long and two pieces approx 10" long to make the box. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 01-Jun-2004 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.2 F (-67.9 C) Windchill -133.6 F (-92 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.1 kts Grid 110 Barometer 658.1 mb (11462. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 17:43:38 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: OT Re: general electric terminal? References: <20040601134130.S30271@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40BD069A.50409@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > > Not really. Milli Vanilli did the singing, and Babe just lip synched > Well that just leaves Mrs Piggy and Kermit for singing. :) Ben. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 17:21:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: DZ11 pinout? In-Reply-To: <20040601075955.393E979003F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> from "wai-sun chia" at Jun 1, 4 03:59:55 pm Message-ID: > > Hello list, > My DZ11 arrived cableless, so just a simple query: > > Anyone out there has the pinout for the 50-pin connector on the DZ11 itself? > The manual make no mention of any sort of wiring diagram. Is not the Printset available somewhere (e.g. Bitsavers)? That would include the pinout of the connector. I can tell you that towards one end of the connector are 4 lines per port -- something like TxD, RxD, CD, and Ground, arranged in a square. Then 2 grounds. Then 2 rows of 8 signals -- all the DSRs down one side and all the DTRs down the other, or something like that. I had to work this out the hard way for my first DZ11. Tracing the groundds wasn't hard, then I figured out which were inputs and which were outputs. Fiddling with the DZ11 registers from the PDP11's front panel let me identify the outputs (toggling the DTR and set break bits), readign the registers identified the handshake inputs. The line left over had to be the RxD line :-) I should have the printset somewhere, and can e-mail you the pinout if you can't get it anywhere else. > > I'm planning to make an octopus cable myself with the info.. Assumeing you have am RS232 DZ11 (current loop ones exist, or so I am told), then it is just a cable. All the buffers are on the DZ11 card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 17:30:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: general electric terminal? In-Reply-To: <04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon> from "Dave Brown" at Jun 2, 4 00:19:04 am Message-ID: > I still have the manual here for the ICL badged variant-they called them > Termiprinters. Think there's a couple of the answerback units here somewhere I still have 2 of the ICL Termiprinters (currently a 118 column KSR and a 75 column RO, they started off life the other way round :-)) and the so-called servive manual. The latter is fairly useless, it doesn't include schemaitcs, and it's even incomplete on the mechanical side (I rememebr stripping the hammer bank to cure some problem, looking in the manual to see how to adjust it, only to be told 'The hammer bank cannot be repaired in the field' or words to that effect. Oh well) > as well- an interesting diode array programmed thing. Neither of mine have the answerback card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 17:39:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, In-Reply-To: <002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> from "Brian Mahoney" at Jun 1, 4 02:37:57 pm Message-ID: > > The saga : I went back to Goodwill this morning and the Terminet30 was still > sitting in the same spot OUTSIDE the store in an alcove. I went in and asked > for a stealdeal but ended up 'donating' 20 bucks for it. Backed up my Saturn I think I donated \pounds 10.00 to a charity for my first Termiprinter. > wagon and found out why it was still sitting in the alcove. Must weigh 80 > pounds. They are not light :-) > The thing is in very good condition, no dents or dings or cracks that I can > see. Inside is very clean. Console, as you will see, is perfect. Keys still > have a very solid feel. Underneath the console there was a yellow tag that The keys are magnetically encoded. Each key rail has an I-core on it, which couples to a U-core fitted throug the keyboard PCB when the key is pressed. There's a drive line that loops through each U-core, and lines for each bit and their inverse, which loop or don't loop through each U-core as appropriate (For each bit, either the normal or inverted line loops trhough each core). Pressing a key induces pulses in the appropiate output lines. That keyboard has one of the nicest feels of anything I have ever used. > said "do not use" so who knows what is wrong with it but it looks great. > I hefted it to my backyard shed, thank goodness for my kids' little red > wagon. There it sits with the console and tape unit removed. Nothing else > would come apart, the damn selectric on the top is where all the weight is I The ICL Termiprinters do come apart, but it's quite a long job.... I have had to do it on occasion... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 1 17:44:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jun 1, 4 02:00:23 pm Message-ID: > I had one of those when I was in high school. It was a Terminet 300 and > didn't have any keyboard attached to it. Right after I got it (in trade > for a wrecked R/C helicopter of all things), I loaned it to a friend that > discovered the hard way that Form Feed _really_ meant Feed All 2500 Sheets > of Paper Out of The Box And On To The Floor. He wasn't amused. :) There was a little cardboard disk at the rear left side, belt-driven from the platten. Notches in the edge of the disk (and, IIRC, the belt ratio) determined the form length. I guess if this was malfunctioning, or the disk was missing, or... then it would feed the entire box of paper... -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 1 17:48:42 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield References: <20040601222346.GC17155@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <40BD07CA.8090201@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 11:40:45AM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >>On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, John Lawson wrote: >> >> >>> And Home Depot. Lowe's, etc are going to stick it to you if you buy such >>>materials there... it's unbelievably outrageous what the charge for bar >> >>I can certainly attest to that. An 8 foot length of 1 1/4" angle >>aluminum costs $15. > > > Speaking of which... does anyone know where I could order a few lengths > of 2" wide x 1/2" or 3/8" thick aluminum bar? It would have to be someplace > that could send it either directly to me to me via the Post Office; or to my > boss in Madison, WI, via whatever means, so that he could bring it to me > when he arrives in October. > > It's for a frame for my SBC-6120 - I would need two pieces approx 16" long > and two pieces approx 10" long to make the box. > > -ethan Have you checked out small parts, thay have some interesting hardware. http://www.smallparts.com/ From jpl15 at panix.com Tue Jun 1 17:55:03 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, it looks like this !(was general electric terminal?) In-Reply-To: <002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> References: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon> <002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: Not the TermiNet 30 I thought it was - this one is (gasp!) Dot Matrix!! A much newer unit, tho the "Cassette Pod" looks about the same. Damn - look how hefty that printhead assembly is... made for many millions of pages, I'm thinkin'. For $20 - it might be fun to hook up to the (serial) port of one of your machines and see if you can print to it. OF course you've got to do the RS-232 gyrations... This is a much different printing mechanism than we have been describing. I wonder if it still uses the same Hall Effect switch keyboard - as you said, it's very positive with not a lot of keytravel, and it 'clacks' as you type. Thanks for the photos, and for rescuing the old girl. Let's hope *somebody* here near you wants it... Cheers John From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 1 18:38:00 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, it looks like this !(was general electric terminal?) In-Reply-To: <002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> References: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon> <002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <1086133079.2104.6.camel@dhcp-248102.mobile.uci.edu> On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 11:37, Brian Mahoney wrote: > The saga : I went back to Goodwill this morning and the Terminet30 was still > sitting in the same spot OUTSIDE the store in an alcove. I went in and asked > for a stealdeal but ended up 'donating' 20 bucks for it. Backed up my Saturn > wagon and found out why it was still sitting in the alcove. Must weigh 80 > pounds. > ://www.geocities.com/computercollectors/terminet1.jpg Oh that's not the one I recall... mine was black, metal, wrinkle paint maybe. Had the picket-fence print mechanism, it was RO, no keyboard. From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 1 18:38:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: References: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <1086133128.2104.8.camel@dhcp-248102.mobile.uci.edu> On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 12:06, John Lawson wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > > > Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > > whirrziziziziziz BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK - BRACKBRACKBRACK etc > etc etc... Yes! Very stochastic, since the print band "scrambled" the characters for letter print frequency or something. From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 1 18:40:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: <20040601124141.X30271@newshell.lmi.net> References: <1086116168.2582.93.camel@dhcp-248163.mobile.uci.edu> <20040601124141.X30271@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1086133242.2104.11.camel@dhcp-248102.mobile.uci.edu> On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 12:42, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > I had one of those, and loved it! Until it got mechanically flakey and I > > tossed it off the balcony (I have photos). Wish I had it now! > > . . . > > Would love to have one again, just for the noise it makes. > > When running? or when it hit the ground under your balcony? When running, it made a mere (thud) on the sidewalk. Damn thing was HEAVY, it was the easiest way to get it out the building (2nd floor). I tried my damnedest to get it reliable again, it had timing issues. I remember terminal strips and fabric wiring. Old! This was 1984. I should dig out the pictures (on railing, midway, on sidewalk). From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 1 18:41:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:08 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086133309.2197.13.camel@dhcp-248102.mobile.uci.edu> On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 14:00, Gene Buckle wrote: > I had one of those when I was in high school. It was a Terminet 300 and > didn't have any keyboard attached to it. Right after I got it (in trade > for a wrecked R/C helicopter of all things), I loaned it to a friend that > discovered the hard way that Form Feed _really_ meant Feed All 2500 Sheets > of Paper Out of The Box And On To The Floor. He wasn't amused. :) You merely needed to punch a new VFU tape on your paper tape punch.... From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 1 19:27:33 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: OT: CRT EMI Shield" (Jun 1, 22:23) References: <20040601222346.GC17155@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <10406020127.ZM1975@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 1, 22:23, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Speaking of which... does anyone know where I could order a few lengths > of 2" wide x 1/2" or 3/8" thick aluminum bar? It would have to be someplace > that could send it either directly to me to me via the Post Office; or to my > boss in Madison, WI, via whatever means, so that he could bring it to me > when he arrives in October. Places that supply model engineers would be able to do that. I use ones in the UK so I can't suggest specifics, but a Google search should find a few. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 1 19:48:44 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield Message-ID: <15252938.1086137325324.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> if you need metal or plastics in small quanties, go to http://www.onlinemetals.com I have deallt with them before and they do a good job. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Pete Turnbull Sent: Jun 1, 2004 8:27 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: OT: CRT EMI Shield On Jun 1, 22:23, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Speaking of which... does anyone know where I could order a few lengths > of 2" wide x 1/2" or 3/8" thick aluminum bar? It would have to be someplace > that could send it either directly to me to me via the Post Office; or to my > boss in Madison, WI, via whatever means, so that he could bring it to me > when he arrives in October. Places that supply model engineers would be able to do that. I use ones in the UK so I can't suggest specifics, but a Google search should find a few. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Jun 1 18:05:16 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Classic Computing in the Southwest (U.S.A) Message-ID: <40BD0BAC.4090205@theriver.com> Phoenix: SMECC Tucson: Biosphere The Pima Air and Space Museum and the Davis-Monthan AFB "Bone Yard" (Thousands of Mothballed planes) Titan ICBM Missile Museum Kitt Peak Observatory Kartchner Caverns & Tombstone, Arizona ( about 45 miles away in Cochise County, my neck of the woods) UofA Surplus Auction (twice monthy) SouthWest Liquidators Albuquerque: Bently Auctions, (Sandia and Los Alamos Labs) (Lots of Classic stuff Decs SGI, Suns (new and old)as well as PeeCee stuff) -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Tue Jun 1 20:10:18 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, it looks like this !(was general electric terminal?) References: <006a01c4479a$7c1df410$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED><04d501c447d2$a1257f70$6a00a8c0@athlon><002a01c44807$a10be9e0$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <000d01c4483f$739b17a0$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" > > > Thanks for the photos, and for rescuing the old girl. Let's hope > *somebody* here near you wants it... > > > Cheers > > John > I'll take a pic of the innards on the base if that is of interest. You know I can almost, and I say almost, see myself heading down that slippery slope to collecting the older larger units that everyone else does. However, when you mention something like the RS-232 gyrations, I am lost. Hell, I never even used a null-modem cable. Question: What the heck did this thing hook up to when it was in someone's home? There are a couple of pictures out there of people playing 'animal' on this unit or one like it. So it hooked up to a modem? bm From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Tue Jun 1 20:27:54 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Atlantic Research Corp. "Interview 40B" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406011827540738.0E91A31C@192.168.42.129> It's a multiprotocol analyzer for serial data. It uses RS232 for its I/O, and is vintage about late 70's to early 80's. In answer to your question as to what it's for, it was used primarily to test dedicated (point-to-point leased line) data hookups that used modems. It can also be used to test the modem itself, as it contains a FOX generator. They're extremely versatile and useful if you happen to be troubleshooting any kind of simple serial data hookup. They can generate and decode ASCII, Baudot, Selectric, and various other codes (depending on what options were installed). *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 01-Jun-04 at 08:39 Degnan Co. wrote: >Can anyone identify the purpose of an Atlantic Research Corportation >(ARC) Interview 40B Data Analyzer? c. 1984. > >Is this a tester for cable, modem, printer, output or pin outs? >Anyone have a manual? It appears to work, in that it powers up and >you can get to the menu I have reproducted below. Here is a picture >I found on the internet. http://www.torontosurplus.com/air/DATA2997. >JPG >Here is the menu: >**MENU SELECTIONS** >0 PROTOCOL SETUP >1 TRIGGER 1 >2 TRIGGER 2 >3 TRIGGER 3 > >5 TIMEOUT/INTERFACE/PRINTER >6 TRANSMIT MODE >7 INTERACTIVE TEST >8 TEST LIBRARY >9 LIBRARY UTILITIES >A REMOTE TRANSFER >B BCC PARAMETERS > >E CODE TRANSLATE CHART >F DATA BUFFER > >-- E N D -- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From cbajpai at comcast.net Tue Jun 1 21:34:11 2004 From: cbajpai at comcast.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000101c4484a$170e9d30$707ba8c0@xpdesk> So how does one gain admission to the basement? I assume all this cool stuff is not open to the general public? Thanks, Chandra -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason McBrien Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:27 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? Basement of the Smithsonian American History Museum. AWESOME collection of computing devices, from abacaii, mechanical tabulators, voting machines, typewriters, through ENIAC (I belive they have the accumulator panels) Enigma machines (They have the three AND four rotor types!) Apple I (Original Homebrew computer club prototype, wood case) SOL, Lisa, early Sun workstations, the first PDP/11-based fingerprint scanner for the FBI, an old Bendix mainframe the same green color as their 60's vintage washing machines, mockups of SAGE, HP calculators, stacks of old magazines, you name it. It's *really* impressive. Other collections may be bigger, but they have a lot of historically signifigant machines. ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 1:48 PM Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? > > Greetings all; > > I'm heading off to DC tomorrow, and it occurred to me while there are all > the usual haunts for museums (NASM, Holocaust, monuments, so on, so > forth) that there quite possibly is a computing museum, or at least > "Warehouse o' Junk" somewhere in DC. > > Anyone have suggestions as to things to look at along this vein? > > JP > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 1 20:48:27 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: <1086133309.2197.13.camel@dhcp-248102.mobile.uci.edu> References: <1086133309.2197.13.camel@dhcp-248102.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20040602014827.GA7513@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 01, 2004 at 04:41:49PM -0700, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 14:00, Gene Buckle wrote: > > I had one of those when I was in high school. It was a Terminet 300 and > > didn't have any keyboard attached to it. Right after I got it (in trade > > for a wrecked R/C helicopter of all things), I loaned it to a friend that > > discovered the hard way that Form Feed _really_ meant Feed All 2500 Sheets > > of Paper Out of The Box And On To The Floor. He wasn't amused. :) > > You merely needed to punch a new VFU tape on your paper tape punch.... That's like a great "bug" in bisync protocols - you could instruct the printer to "skip to channel n", meaning do linefeeds until there was a hole in the nth channel on the VFU tape. By convention, channel 1 was always punched to the top of form - issuing a "skip to channel 1" was the HASP/3780 equivalent of an ASCII FF. The bug is that the communication protocol allows your program to issue a "skip to channel 0" command to the printer - but there _is_ no channel zero on a 12-channel paper tape. Newer devices treat channel 0 as if it were channel 1. Older, especially mechanical devices with real VFU tapes, empty the box of paper, waiting for a non-existent channel to respond. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 02-Jun-2004 01:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.7 F (-67.5 C) Windchill -136.7 F (-93.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.8 kts Grid 106 Barometer 657.1 mb (11503. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Jun 1 22:28:07 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Interesting Tektronix site In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040514205607.00961dd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040514205607.00961dd0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040602032806.GR1072@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Joe R., from writings of Fri, May 14, 2004 at 08:56:07PM -0400: > Yes, excellent site; I've found it to be very helpful. For other owners of Tek 585A scopes, check out the info. there about a vital modification. Speaking of modifications, I've got to get back to figuring out why the previous owner of my 585 replaced a resistor in the low-voltage power supply with a light-bulb, and see what else was changed. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From kennj at telusplanet.net Tue Jun 1 21:31:44 2004 From: kennj at telusplanet.net (kenn Jorgensen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Brian Instruments BRIKON model 723 floppy drive tester/analyzer Message-ID: <40BD3C10.C3C7784B@telusplanet.net> Hello Joe, Thanks for your offer to copy the manual. That would be so helpful! I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, near the beautiful Rocky Mountains. In the interests of trying to help you with your analog cable problem, I'll try to describe what my unit has... Two ribbon cables come out the back of my unit: - A "normal" IBM-PC 34 pin ribbon cable with two connectors on the end (one that mates with the connector found on most 3.5 inch drives and one that mates with the PC-board-edge connector found on older 5.25 inch drives). - A wider 50 pin ribbon that mates with a PC-board-edge connector. I don't know what kind of drive this cable is for! There are also two male receptacles on the back near the center of the unit. - A 20-pin (2 X 10) connector that looks like it will mate with my old Apple II 5.25 inch floppy drives. I have not been brave enough to try it yet! - A 40-pin (2 x 20) connector of the same style as the above 20-pin connector (just longer :-) Inside the unit these two connectors are mounted on a small PC board, which then has a jumper to one of the unit's two plug-in "cards". This small PC board is fed an unregulated voltage, and has a linear regulator (+12 volt if I remember right) mounted on it. Aside from some capacitors, there's not much more on this board. The board looks more like an adaptor than anything else. Could it be you're missing this little adaptor board? If so, I can reverse engineer it for you. It wouldn't be the first time I've created a schematic from a populated PC board! Somewhere around here I have an Apple service manual that gives the pin-outs for the 20-pin floppy drive connector, though I would expect you should be able to find that on the web pretty easily these days. But if you need it, I'll dig it up. Finally, there's the leads to supply power to the drives under test: - one lead ends with a connector appropriate for 5.25 inch drives, and came mated with a short adaptor to fit 3.5 inch drives - the second lead ends with a strange 6 pin (2 rows of 3) connector that probably fits what ever monster the above 50 pin ribbon cable was intended to mate with :-) Please let me know if I can help. My email address (replace the Z with "@" and the X with "."): kennjZtelusplanetXnet (yeah, I already get enough spam!). Take care, Kenn > Kenn, > > I have two model 723s and a manual. I don't remember the details of the > options off the top of my head but I'll try to find the manual and scan it. > I THINK one of mine has some of the analog options but I don't have the > cables for them and I don't know the pinouts. Perhaps you can help with > that. BTW where are you loacted? > > Joe From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Jun 1 22:26:22 2004 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Atlantic Research Corp. "Interview 40B" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040601232416.01de11d8@mail.itm-inst.com> At 08:39 AM 6/1/2004, Degnan Co. wrote: >Can anyone identify the purpose of an Atlantic Research Corportation >(ARC) Interview 40B Data Analyzer? c. 1984. It's a communications protocol analyzer. Depending on the interface you have, it can plug in to a V.35, T1, or other comm line and do line testing. I've got an Interview 7700 Turbo taking up space here (with the dual T1 interface) that I'd love to find a good home for. :-) -Rick From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Jun 2 00:11:08 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, References: Message-ID: <001101c44860$03d4e240$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> just do not pound something hard on the terminet keys as they will break the little ferrite... forgot the 30 had those type,,, they were also that way on the 300 and 1200! congrats, enjoy it! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 3:39 PM Subject: Re: Terminet30 - Actually, > > > > The saga : I went back to Goodwill this morning and the Terminet30 was still > > sitting in the same spot OUTSIDE the store in an alcove. I went in and asked > > for a stealdeal but ended up 'donating' 20 bucks for it. Backed up my Saturn > > I think I donated \pounds 10.00 to a charity for my first Termiprinter. > > > wagon and found out why it was still sitting in the alcove. Must weigh 80 > > pounds. > > They are not light :-) > > > The thing is in very good condition, no dents or dings or cracks that I can > > see. Inside is very clean. Console, as you will see, is perfect. Keys still > > have a very solid feel. Underneath the console there was a yellow tag that > > The keys are magnetically encoded. Each key rail has an I-core on it, > which couples to a U-core fitted throug the keyboard PCB when the key is > pressed. There's a drive line that loops through each U-core, and lines > for each bit and their inverse, which loop or don't loop through each > U-core as appropriate (For each bit, either the normal or inverted line > loops trhough each core). Pressing a key induces pulses in the appropiate > output lines. > > That keyboard has one of the nicest feels of anything I have ever used. > > > said "do not use" so who knows what is wrong with it but it looks great. > > I hefted it to my backyard shed, thank goodness for my kids' little red > > wagon. There it sits with the console and tape unit removed. Nothing else > > would come apart, the damn selectric on the top is where all the weight is I > > The ICL Termiprinters do come apart, but it's quite a long job.... I have > had to do it on occasion... > > -tony > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Jun 2 00:18:29 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Classic Computing in the Southwest (U.S.A.) References: <014501c447e5$a49186a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <006701c44861$0a50c6b0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> are you from phoenix or just going to be here and departing towards the east> give me a call at 623 435 1522 and we ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason McBrien" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 8:22 AM Subject: Classic Computing in the Southwest (U.S.A.) > I'll be on a road trip at the end of June driving from Phoenix, AZ to > Houston, TX. Any interesting spots to check out on the way? I'm hoping to > hit the Johnson Space Center in Houston, but I'll need to see what my > schedule looks like (It's a business road-trip :( > > From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Jun 2 00:45:09 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Needed "data processing magazine" also any of same topic are from 50's 60's 70's such as "Datamation", ACM conference proceedings, Early AFIPS, and others. Message-ID: <008c01c44864$c3d4d010$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Needed "data processing magazine" also any of same topic are from 50's 60's 70's such as "Datamation", ACM conference proceedings, Early AFIPS, and others. Also have a requirement for any of the IRE - IEEE publications on early computing. Please advise All eras are fine prefer bound but... loose OK too. address is below. Thanks Ed Sharpe, Archivist for SMECC - - See the Museum's Web Site at www.smecc.org Southwest Museum of Engineering, Communications and Computation Coury House / SMECC Library 5802 W. Palmaire Ave. Phone 623-435-1522 Glendale Az 85301 USA From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 2 04:24:07 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? In-Reply-To: <000101c4484a$170e9d30$707ba8c0@xpdesk> (Chandra Bajpai's message of "Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:34:11 -0400") References: <000101c4484a$170e9d30$707ba8c0@xpdesk> Message-ID: <0qllj6z51k.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> > Basement of the Smithsonian American History Museum. AWESOME > collection of computing devices, from abacaii, mechanical > tabulators, voting machines, "Chandra Bajpai" writes: > So how does one gain admission to the basement? I assume all this cool > stuff is not open to the general public? Nope, it is open to the public. The museum is built into a slope; one entrance faces the mall, the other is one floor up and faces away from the mall, so if you come in thru the upper entrance, you might tend to think of the lower floor as a basement. The Electromatic they have under glass there clinched my suspicions about the origins of the Friden Flexowriter; it looks very much like an SPS, although with one heck of a paint job. I confirmed the connection with the marvellous Stan Kelly-Bootle. From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 2 04:40:16 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? In-Reply-To: (JP Hindin's message of "Tue, 1 Jun 2004 12:48:41 -0500 (CDT)") References: Message-ID: <0qhdtuz4an.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> > forth) that there quite possibly is a computing museum, or at least > "Warehouse o' Junk" somewhere in DC. > > Anyone have suggestions as to things to look at along this vein? Another place besides the American History museum is the Crypto Museum near Ft Meade, http://www.nsa.gov/museum/ I think MD also has a museum of comms and microwave gear, and I don't know if there's anything of computer-ish nature in the Ordinance Museum near Aberdeen Proving Grounds. Baltimore used to have some awesome scrapyards; I don't know if they are still there. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 08:25:10 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? Message-ID: Yep, you're probably right. I couldn't find my pictures to confirm, and if I remember right it had the odd pinstriping of the PDP-15 series. The "Straight-8" is sweet, looks like it's a sci-fi prop, as if it should be driving the Tardis or something :) >From: Ethan Dicks >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? >Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 22:17:53 +0000 > >If it's the large machine in the corner, off the main path (just past the >Straight-8), that should be a PDP-15. It's definitely not 16-bits. > >-ethan _________________________________________________________________ MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups – now 3 months FREE! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/ From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Jun 2 08:53:33 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: DEC VT102 terminal question? In-Reply-To: <008d01c431d9$e6504120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <008d01c431d9$e6504120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3C82B6AD-B49C-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 4 May 2004, at 23:15, Jay West wrote: > I have a DEC VT102 terminal that I got some time ago from a > listmember. On > the right of the keyboard where the numeric keypad is, the keys don't > match > the color of the other keys on the keyboard. The upper left key in the > keypad is gold, and the other keys on the keypad are different colors > - red, > blue, white - and have editing words on them, I think words like "left, > copy, print", something like that. > > My question is - is it likely that someone scavenged keys from another > non-vt100 keyboard to replace missing keys, or was this some option > used > with some word processing software? If the later, I'm happy I have > something > unusual. If the former, I am going to yank those keycaps off and > scavenge > the "correct" keys from one of the other VT100's I'm going to junk. > > Anyone know the answer? Sounds like a WPS or WPS+ keypad. It's been a long while since I've seen one but it sounds right! Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 2 09:04:00 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: GE Terminet terminal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I had one of those when I was in high school. It was a Terminet 300 and > > didn't have any keyboard attached to it. Right after I got it (in trade > > for a wrecked R/C helicopter of all things), I loaned it to a friend that > > discovered the hard way that Form Feed _really_ meant Feed All 2500 Sheets > > of Paper Out of The Box And On To The Floor. He wasn't amused. :) > > There was a little cardboard disk at the rear left side, belt-driven from > the platten. Notches in the edge of the disk (and, IIRC, the belt ratio) > determined the form length. I guess if this was malfunctioning, or the > disk was missing, or... then it would feed the entire box of paper... > Yep, the disk was missing. Never saw one. I also used to have a Centronics 700(?) dot matrix printer that used a small loop of paper tape for form length control. g. From sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be Wed Jun 2 10:48:29 2004 From: sonnet at sols.ucl.ac.be (Philippe Sonnet) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: PDP-8 stuff References: <1071478379.2811.40.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <008001c4480e$4a25f4c0$2101a8c0@solsmineral> <1086123577.5919.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <00bf01c448b9$0d5db090$90276882@solsmineral> Here is the way to connect the BA08A to a PDP-8/L (information given to me by Max Burnet). http://www.sonnet.be/documents/connections.jpg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Sotomayor" To: "Philippe Sonnet" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:59 PM Subject: Re: PDP-8 stuff > On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 12:26, Philippe Sonnet wrote: > > Dear Guy, > > > > Refering to a question you posted in December 2003, I wonder if you ever > > found information about the BA08A expansion box for 8/L (manual, > > maintenance, diagrams), other than module utization chart. > > > > No, I never did. I have cables to hook up an 8/L to an expansion box > but don't know where to plug the cables into the expansion box. :-( > > > Best regards, > > > > Philippe Sonnet > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 10:53 AM > > Subject: PDP-8 stuff > > > > > > > I'm looking for information on the expansion boxes for the "older" > > > PDP-8's (ie 8/I and 8/L). Specifically: > > > BA08A > > > BM12L > > > MM8I > > > > > > Ideally I'd like to find user's manuals and maintenance manuals for > > > them, but at this point anything would be useful. > > > > > > Of course, I'll also re-iterate my call for information on the DF32D > > > also. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > -- > > > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > > -- > > TTFN - Guy > > From m.ballarini at iri.tudelft.nl Wed Jun 2 07:56:08 2004 From: m.ballarini at iri.tudelft.nl (mirko ballarini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Boot disk for Philips P2000C? Message-ID: <40BDCE68.1070909@iri.tudelft.nl> Hi! I have the same problem. did you happen to get a boot disk? thanks and cheers, mirko From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Jun 2 08:52:33 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: DZ11 pinout? In-Reply-To: <10406012017.ZM1598@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20040601075955.393E979003F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> <10406012017.ZM1598@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <40BDDBA1.2090904@hp.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > This is for a DZ11-A/B/E, M7819. The 20mA versions (DZ11-C/D/F, M7814) > are different. > > The information isn't in either the User Manual or the Technical > Manual, so I resorted to reading circuit diagrams from the module > assembly microfiche. It's not very clear in parts, but the pinout is: > Wow! Thanks Pete for the effort! You're a saviour!! :-) > Chan. TxD RxD SG DTR DCD RI > > 0 19 21 22 1 2 20 > 1 23 25 26 3 4 24 > 2 27 29 30 5 6 28 > 3 31 33 34 7 8 32 > 4 35 37 38 9 10 36 > 5 39 41 42 11 12 40 > 6 43 45 46 13 14 44 > 7 47 49 50 15 16 48 > > Pins 17 and 18 are also ground. Just to confirm the BERG's pinout, looking towards the front of the BERG connector. Is it scheme A or B? Scheme A V : : 11 9 7 5 3 1 : : 12 10 8 6 4 2 Scheme B V : : 12 10 8 6 4 2 : : 11 9 7 5 3 1 > > > On the DB25 end, TxD is pin 2, RxD is pin 3, SG is pin 7, DTR is pin > 20, DCD is pin 8, RI is pin 22. > As these isn't in the manual, should these be archived somewhere other than this list's archive? /wai-sun From Rupert.Bennett-Kirkham at bmw.de Wed Jun 2 10:37:40 2004 From: Rupert.Bennett-Kirkham at bmw.de (Rupert Kirkham) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software Message-ID: <40BDF444.2AA038BE@bmw.de> Dear Richard, I have an HP 4952A that I am trying to coax back into life. It would be very useful to have the software that you have mentioned as alas the disks have disappeared. A point that may interest you is a note in the operating manual (at least it was still there), section 12-21 concerning the copying of disks. {Note: Some software applications are not reproducible. The will appear to be copied, but will be non-executeable. When you try to load this type of application, the HP4952A will display the error message 'Application Denied'.} This seems to explain the problem that you encountered. Anyway I would like to have a go at persuading the the analyser to accept these files. It may be possible to open up these files and "hand input" them into the analyser and then save them to disk for later use. As the saying goes: "Nothing ventured, nothing gained". Regards, Rupert. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 2 11:43:07 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: PDP-8 stuff In-Reply-To: <00bf01c448b9$0d5db090$90276882@solsmineral> References: <1071478379.2811.40.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com> <008001c4480e$4a25f4c0$2101a8c0@solsmineral> <1086123577.5919.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> <00bf01c448b9$0d5db090$90276882@solsmineral> Message-ID: <1086194587.5910.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 08:48, Philippe Sonnet wrote: > Here is the way to connect the BA08A to a PDP-8/L (information given to me > by Max Burnet). > > http://www.sonnet.be/documents/connections.jpg Thanks. Now I'll be able to hook it all up (once I dig out the expansion box again). > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > To: "Philippe Sonnet" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic > Posts Only" > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 10:59 PM > Subject: Re: PDP-8 stuff > > > > On Tue, 2004-06-01 at 12:26, Philippe Sonnet wrote: > > > Dear Guy, > > > > > > Refering to a question you posted in December 2003, I wonder if you ever > > > found information about the BA08A expansion box for 8/L (manual, > > > maintenance, diagrams), other than module utization chart. > > > > > > > No, I never did. I have cables to hook up an 8/L to an expansion box > > but don't know where to plug the cables into the expansion box. :-( > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Philippe Sonnet > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Guy Sotomayor" > > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > > > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 10:53 AM > > > Subject: PDP-8 stuff > > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for information on the expansion boxes for the "older" > > > > PDP-8's (ie 8/I and 8/L). Specifically: > > > > BA08A > > > > BM12L > > > > MM8I > > > > > > > > Ideally I'd like to find user's manuals and maintenance manuals for > > > > them, but at this point anything would be useful. > > > > > > > > Of course, I'll also re-iterate my call for information on the DF32D > > > > also. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > -- > > > > > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > -- TTFN - Guy From marvin at rain.org Wed Jun 2 11:58:39 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: OT: FS - HP DLTtape IIIXT 30 GB Message-ID: <40BE073F.7D2D8362@rain.org> I am selling an HP DLTtape IIIXT 30 GB data cartridge, P/N C5141A for the Catalina Amateur Radio Assoc (CARA.) It is new and still in the shrinkwrap; $15.00 including mailing. From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 12:22:39 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? From jim at smithy.com Wed Jun 2 12:27:08 2004 From: jim at smithy.com (Jim Donoghue) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086197228.2515.49.camel@localhost> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 13:22, Damien Cymbal wrote: > Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > > I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? The only things I have seen that use these are the Wang word processors and OIS systems, maybe some old IBM system? Or were those soft-sectored? If you don't find a use for them, I could use them for my OIS. Jim -- Welcome to Michigan: Watch for traffic backups. Be prepared to stop. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 12:38:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406021738.KAA27595@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Damien Cymbal" > >Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > >I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? > Hi Damien How many sectors are they? I have use for 32 sectored disk. I just don't watch eBay often enough to catch the sale of these. Dwight From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 2 12:54:46 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Teletype questions Message-ID: <1086198885.5906.11.camel@localhost.localdomain> Last night I was trying to figure out the interface on one of my teletypes (KSR-33). I was very frustrated by the Teletype manuals in that they don't (at least mine don't) talk about the various interface modules in any detail. Is there documentation on these beasts? Specifically how to hook them up to other equipment (like computers)? However in the process, I discovered that the particular teletype I was working on has the EIA RS232C interface. And no this wasn't some bodged together thing by some previous owner. It was all Teletype components. I was *really* blown away by this! To verify that this is what it was I hooked it up to a (sacrificial) RS-232 terminal and what was typed on one showed up on the other! It also verified that the teletype was indeed working. -- TTFN - Guy From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 13:01:02 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Teletype questions Message-ID: <200406021801.LAA27604@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Most are current loop but they has RS-232 and MODEM as well. Dwight >From: "Guy Sotomayor" > >Last night I was trying to figure out the interface on one of my >teletypes (KSR-33). I was very frustrated by the Teletype manuals in >that they don't (at least mine don't) talk about the various interface >modules in any detail. > >Is there documentation on these beasts? Specifically how to hook them >up to other equipment (like computers)? > >However in the process, I discovered that the particular teletype I was >working on has the EIA RS232C interface. And no this wasn't some bodged >together thing by some previous owner. It was all Teletype components. >I was *really* blown away by this! To verify that this is what it was I >hooked it up to a (sacrificial) RS-232 terminal and what was typed on >one showed up on the other! It also verified that the teletype was >indeed working. >-- > >TTFN - Guy > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 2 13:45:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Nascom 2 cooling fan(s)?? Message-ID: <1086201922.15615.22.camel@weka.localdomain> Calling on the wisdom of list members here... How warm does a) the PSU and b) the logic circuitry get in a Nascom 2? I'm currently in the process of dismantling the enormous wooden box which my acquired Nascom 2 came in and replacing it with a smaller old wooden box with a hinged lid. Boards (I have CPU board + memory) will be mounted vertically, likely at one end of the new box. Transformer + PSU will be at the opposite end. The machine as I got it had no fan in it, but then the horrible plywood crate was almost big enough to live inside :-) It just had some ventilation holes in the corner where the transformer was. I'm not sure whether I could really do with a fan blowing air over the PSU, or even two, with one on the PSU and one on the card stack. Or maybe passive cooling of PSU + cards is sufficient... Thoughts welcome. If I'm going to go the fan route I should really find period fans I suppose! Incidentally the new box is about 14" wide x 10" deep x 14" high, with a hinged lid, and large iron hinged handles at either end. All tounge and groove wooden construction, using particularly soft wood of unknown origin. In particularly ornate black script it reads "3" on the front and "51 to 79" and "15 x 12" on one side. I have no idea what it was used for, but put the age at probably around 1950 (possibly earlier). It may well be military, Post Office, or railways I imagine. Anyone? I'll reproduce the black lettering on the finished machine I think even though I have no idea what it means :-) The metal hinges and other fittings have been in a electrolysis bath for the last day and are looking particilarly nice. I'll keep the ports all round the back of the box, then if I can somehow build a slimline case for the keyboard then there'll be *just* enough room to stow the keyboard inside the box at the top and close the lid :) cheers Jules From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 2 13:47:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death Message-ID: My voicemail PC died a pretty terrible death this morning. I was still groggy from a late night of hackering and sitting at my computer (my back is to the voicemail system) and all of a sudden this loud popping begins. At first a wave of terror washed over me as my not quite totally functioning brain was trying to determine just what the hell was going on. At first I didn't want to look but I turned around in time to see some serious arcing going on inside the exposed PC (the case is off). It went on for a good 4-5 seconds (start to finish). It was probably the power supply but I can't tell for sure until I do a post-mortem (right now I'm getting my voicemail back up). Luckily it didn't take out any hardware. The hard drive is fine and as far as I can tell so far so are the voice boards. That was some crazy shit. The power supply fan went bad on it a while ago (over a year, surely longer) and I never bothered replacing it because I always use just whatever hardware I have laying about whenever something goes bad on the box, and those damn power supply fans go out all the time and it's a pain to have to replace them. Anyway, I wonder if it was some critical thermal failure of some sort. The P/S was hot but not abnormally so (abnormal in this case would be scorching but usual temperature is very hot to the touch but not burning). Wacky. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Jun 2 13:55:23 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 2, 04 11:47:11 am Message-ID: <200406021855.OAA22111@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > > My voicemail PC died a pretty terrible death this morning. I was still > groggy from a late night of hackering and sitting at my computer (my back > is to the voicemail system) and all of a sudden this loud popping begins. > At first a wave of terror washed over me as my not quite totally > functioning brain was trying to determine just what the hell was going on. > At first I didn't want to look but I turned around in time to see some > serious arcing going on inside the exposed PC (the case is off). It went > on for a good 4-5 seconds (start to finish). It was probably the power Sounds like the start of a B-grade horror movie! ;) Cheers, Bryan Pope From elmo at mminternet.com Wed Jun 2 14:06:02 2004 From: elmo at mminternet.com (elmo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Freebies in Socal: Portable Terminals Message-ID: <019901c448d4$a5bb2af0$66a8a8c0@junko> Greetings. I have 5 portable terminals available for a collector. They are all in clean/good shape and come with accessories, and a couple have fitted cases. Two have customized/OEM keyboards with vivid colors. The lot includes: TI 707/1200 TI 745 TI 703 and a couple LCD models, one I think is a Panasonic. Local pickup preferred, must take all. Regards, Eliot From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jun 2 14:24:29 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: PDP-11/60 and HP 9836 available in Houston Message-ID: David, I'm also trying to reach you regarding the PDP-11/60. Please email or call me or Ethan at your convenience. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 2 14:43:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086205414.15615.31.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 18:47, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The power supply fan went bad on it a while ago (over a year, surely > longer) and I never bothered replacing it because I always use just > whatever hardware I have laying about whenever something goes bad on the > box, and those damn power supply fans go out all the time and it's a pain > to have to replace them. FWIW, the 12V fans in Mac LC series machines seem to be of a lot better quality than the nasty PC equivalent, and - at least round here - Mac LC's are now even easier to come by than old AT-style PCs*. I imagine you'll find such a fan is a straight swap - I think they're about the right size. I've been running one in my network switch (with a bit of homebrew cardboard ducting!) for the last few months and it's way quieter than the cheapo fan that I took out. * No idea why this is the case. Hoarding because Macs were horribly expensive and people remember this, and so for some reason store the machines rather than throw them out? OTOH, AT-class PCs seem hard to come by now; I assume they've all long since exploded or been sent to the crusher. cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 2 14:34:44 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: DEC VT102 terminal question? In-Reply-To: Huw Davies "Re: DEC VT102 terminal question?" (Jun 2, 23:53) References: <008d01c431d9$e6504120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3C82B6AD-B49C-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <10406022034.ZM2721@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 2, 23:53, Huw Davies wrote: > On 4 May 2004, at 23:15, Jay West wrote: > > > I have a DEC VT102 terminal that I got some time ago from a > > listmember. On > > the right of the keyboard where the numeric keypad is, the keys don't > > match > > the color of the other keys on the keyboard. The upper left key in the > > keypad is gold, and the other keys on the keypad are different colors > > - red, > > blue, white - and have editing words on them, I think words like "left, > > copy, print", something like that. > Sounds like a WPS or WPS+ keypad. It's been a long while since I've > seen one but it sounds right! It was a moderately common option, used by several editors. For example, ED and EDT for RSX-11 used those keys; the GOLD key in particular labelled as such on editor reference cards and is used by a variety of software. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 2 15:47:48 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: Boot disk for Philips P2000C? In-Reply-To: <40BDCE68.1070909@iri.tudelft.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, mirko ballarini wrote: > Hi! > > I have the same problem. did you happen to get a boot disk? > thanks and cheers, For those who need this: you probably can contact Kees Stravers (kees dot stravers at xs4all dot nl), who has many Philips systems, and probably the disks as well. --fred From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Jun 2 11:37:27 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: DZ11 pinout? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BE0247.8040508@hp.com> Attached is the DZ11 pinout in ASCII art, require 92 columns, so please widen your xterms or resize your VTs to 132 columns. Those on TTYs are safe.. :-) Please certify that this is correct. Tony Duell wrote: >>Hello list, >>My DZ11 arrived cableless, so just a simple query: >> >>Anyone out there has the pinout for the 50-pin connector on the DZ11 itself? >>The manual make no mention of any sort of wiring diagram. > > > Is not the Printset available somewhere (e.g. Bitsavers)? That would > include the pinout of the connector. > > I can tell you that towards one end of the connector are 4 lines per port > -- something like TxD, RxD, CD, and Ground, arranged in a square. Then 2 > grounds. Then 2 rows of 8 signals -- all the DSRs down one side and all > the DTRs down the other, or something like that. > > I had to work this out the hard way for my first DZ11. Tracing the > groundds wasn't hard, then I figured out which were inputs and which were > outputs. Fiddling with the DZ11 registers from the PDP11's front panel > let me identify the outputs (toggling the DTR and set break bits), > readign the registers identified the handshake inputs. The line left over > had to be the RxD line :-) > > I should have the printset somewhere, and can e-mail you the pinout if > you can't get it anywhere else. > > >>I'm planning to make an octopus cable myself with the info.. > > > Assumeing you have am RS232 DZ11 (current loop ones exist, or so I am > told), then it is just a cable. All the buffers are on the DZ11 card. > > -tony > -- a8888b. d888888b. 8P"YP"Y88 Wai-Sun "Squidster" Chia 8|o||o|88 Technical Consultant (RHCE) 8' .88 Linux/Unix Development 8`._.' Y8. Consulting & Integration d/ `8b. HP Services Malaysia dP . Y8b. d8:' " `::88b d8" 'Y88b :8P ' :888 8a. : _a88P ._/"Yaa_: .| 88P| \ YP" `| 8P `. / \.___.d| .' `--..__)8888P`._.' "Phear the Penguins!" "I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect." - Linus Torvalds - -------------- next part -------------- D Z 1 1 B E R G C O N N E C T O R P I N O U T V Pin 49 47 45 43 41 39 37 35 33 31 29 27 25 23 21 19 17 15 13 11 9 7 5 3 1 Sig TX RX TX RX TX RX TX RX TX RX TX RX TX RX TX RX GND DTR DTR DTR DTR DTR DTR DTR DTR ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Ch | 7 7 | 6 6 | 5 5 | 4 4 | 3 3 | 2 2 | 1 1 | 0 0 | - | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | Ch | 7 7 | 6 6 | 5 5 | 4 4 | 3 3 | 2 2 | 1 1 | 0 0 | - | 7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ ------ --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Sig SG RI SG RI SG RI SG RI SG RI SG RI SG RI SG RI GND DCD DCD DCD DCD DCD DCD DCD DCD Pin 50 48 46 44 42 40 38 36 34 32 30 28 26 24 22 20 18 16 14 12 10 8 6 4 2 Pin = BERG's pin Sig = EIA/RS232C signal Ch = Serial line channels: 0-7 Example: Ch0 TX: pin 21 Ch0 RX: pin 19 Ch0 SG: pin 22 Ch0 RI: pin 20 Ch0 DTR: pin 1 Ch0 DCD: pin 2 Note: Take notice of aesthetic layout of pins per channel: 1 square block of 4x4 and a column of 1x2 From keld.soerensen at os.dk Wed Jun 2 12:45:22 2004 From: keld.soerensen at os.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Keld_S=F8rensen?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: HP 7906 drive lives again & stuff Message-ID: <00af01c448c9$6128b2a0$0701a8c0@ami1704> Hi Jay ! Years back I scrapped a 7906 and I have some components left - do you have some documentation on the hardware. I want to know something about the wires on the main transformer. Regards Keld S?rensen Denmark From edward at groenenberg.net Wed Jun 2 14:32:22 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: formatting an RD5x Message-ID: <40BE2B46.C097F0@groenenberg.net> Hi all, I tried to format an RD54 using my xxdp+ diag pack and guess what the ZRQCH0.bin is not on it arghhhhh. Didn't somebody not mentioned some time ago that an ARxxxx routine would work too? Anybody can help me? a floppy with the diag only would be great! Thanks, Ed -- From fpults at harrison.k12.co.us Wed Jun 2 15:19:54 2004 From: fpults at harrison.k12.co.us (Fred Pults) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: AT&T General Purpose Sychronous AT/Enhanced card Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20040602141652.010abef8@harrison.k12.co.us> Hi Chris, I work for Harrison School Dist in Colorado Springs, CO (hsd2.org). I saw the message saying you have an AT&T GPSC-AT/E serial card to give away. If you still have it I could use it on our voice mail server and I will pay the postage. Let me know your address and I will send money. Thanks, Fred From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 2 16:26:23 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: AT&T General Purpose Sychronous AT/Enhanced card Message-ID: >Hi Chris, I work for Harrison School Dist in Colorado Springs, CO >(hsd2.org). I saw the message saying you have an > AT&T GPSC-AT/E serial card to give away. If you still have it I could >use it on our voice mail server and I will pay the postage. Let me know >your address and I will send money. Thanks, Fred I'd love to give it to you, but alas, it is long gone. Sorry :-( -chris From frank at artair.com Wed Jun 2 16:44:39 2004 From: frank at artair.com (Frank Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:09 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: --On Wednesday, June 02, 2004 13:22:39 -0400 Damien Cymbal wrote: > Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies > told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > > I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these > if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? I'd be willing to buy a box or two of them to use in my Altair floppy drives if they are 32 sector floppies. Frank From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 2 17:13:15 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Boot disk for Philips P2000C? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086214394.15615.37.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 20:47, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, mirko ballarini wrote: > > > Hi! > > > > I have the same problem. did you happen to get a boot disk? > > thanks and cheers, > For those who need this: you probably can contact Kees > Stravers (kees dot stravers at xs4all dot nl), who has > many Philips systems, and probably the disks as well. I missed the start of this thread, but I'm almost certain I found a pile of software + manuals for one of these machines the other day (yellow featured quite heavily in the packaging IIRC) at the museum. The machine itself was in a big black carry case and I didn't have time to have a look at it. I'll be back there on Saturday so can take a look then and see what there is if needs be... cheers Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Jun 2 17:17:16 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: formatting an RD5x In-Reply-To: <40BE2B46.C097F0@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040602181626.06f3bc40@192.168.0.1> At 03:32 PM 6/2/2004, you wrote: >I tried to format an RD54 using my xxdp+ diag pack and guess what >the ZRQCH0.bin is not on it arghhhhh. > >Didn't somebody not mentioned some time ago that an ARxxxx routine would >work too? > >Anybody can help me? a floppy with the diag only would be great! I have teledisk files ZRQCH0.BIC for RX50 and RX33. Which one do you prefer. Ed From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 2 17:36:14 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Frank Smith wrote: > --On Wednesday, June 02, 2004 13:22:39 -0400 Damien Cymbal wrote: > > > Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies > > told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > > > > I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these > > if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? > > I'd be willing to buy a box or two of them to use in my Altair floppy drives if > they are 32 sector floppies. > > Frank To the best of my knowledge, all 8" hard sectored disk are 32 sector. The only difference is between the 'normal' hard sector arrangement where the sector holes encircle the hub hole, whereas the 'Vydec' compatible disks have the sector holes around the periphery. They are not common, however. - don From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Jun 2 17:45:27 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040602224527.84749.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> The power supply fan is there to keep the power supply cool. I'm not surprised that it died catastrophically after being run with no fan. In our lab at work, though, I once saw a power supply with a working fan fail this way. Perhaps not as spectacularly, but it coughed a couple of sparks out the back before it quit. It was on a system that was repeatedly power-cycled during testing, which I am told is rough on the PS. --Bill --- Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > The power supply fan went bad on it a while ago > (over a year, surely > longer) and I never bothered replacing it From RMaxwell at atlantissi.com Wed Jun 2 17:49:03 2004 From: RMaxwell at atlantissi.com (RMaxwell@atlantissi.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Terminet30 Message-ID: <9726BA9DE867D51183B900B0D0AB85F802F128AE@INETMAIL> Brian, I can give the 30 a home, and I work in SE Brampton, so a pick-up should be fairly straightforward to arrange. Contact me off-list to discuss details. The Terminet 30 looks much more (late 70's?) modern than the old Terminet 300 I used as a letter-quality printer back in 1982-3. It was big and heavy (and old even then), with a rack of cards attached to the back containing the logic. I saw a fellow working on one with the lid up - wearing a tie. Never do that. Fortunately, the band drive had stall detection, or it could have been serious. An old German physics prof I had for a "reports" course was reputed to dislike word processors, and the previous years' class insisted that laser printouts from the Computing Center cost them marks... Terminet 300 output tends to look a little uneven, since hammer-belt timing is slightly variable, character fingers are bendable, and each of the (113 on the T300) hammers hits slightly differently - so output LOOKed like it came from a tired old manual typewriter. Don't know if it was that, or my sterling prose, but I got 48/50 on that course. Ah, memories. Regards, Bob Maxwell > -----Original Message----- > From: "Brian Mahoney" > Subject: Terminet30 - Actually, it looks like this !(was general > electric terminal?) > > It's in Scarborough. If anyone wants it they can have it for > $21.60 Canadian > plus whatever shipping YOU can arrange. Or pick it up, I'll > help you to the > car. > > Seriously, if no one wants it, what the hell do I do with it? > I collect > portables! And what vintage is it? 60's? Later? > > Brian Mahoney > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 17:54:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Nascom 2 cooling fan(s)?? In-Reply-To: <1086201922.15615.22.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 2, 4 06:45:22 pm Message-ID: > > > Calling on the wisdom of list members here... > > How warm does a) the PSU and b) the logic circuitry get in a Nascom 2? Wel,, the PSU is linear, and the logic is not exactly low-power, but I've never seen one with a fan. But a muffin fan can't hurt! > Boards (I have CPU board + memory) will be mounted vertically, likely at Ah, so you got the free emmeory board too. Story is that the Nascom CPU board was designed to take 4118 IK byte RAMs, but they were in short supply, so they shipped the machine with a 16K (or something) DRAM board. A word of warning. Check you've connected the keyboard to the right plug on the CPU board. If you plug it into the serial connector by mistake you will do a lot of damage! And the keyboard came pre-assembled so there's no scheamtic in the manual... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 17:27:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Brian Instruments BRIKON model 723 floppy drive tester/analyzer In-Reply-To: <40BD3C10.C3C7784B@telusplanet.net> from "kenn Jorgensen" at Jun 1, 4 08:31:44 pm Message-ID: [Drive exerciser cables] > - A wider 50 pin ribbon that mates with a PC-board-edge > connector. I don't know what kind of drive this > cable is for! The most likely guess is that it's for an 8" drive (SA800-like interface). > - the second lead ends with a strange 6 pin (2 rows of 3) > connector that probably fits what ever monster the above > 50 pin ribbon cable was intended to mate with :-) Amd that spounds like an 8" drive power connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 17:56:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: <1086205414.15615.31.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 2, 4 07:43:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 18:47, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > The power supply fan went bad on it a while ago (over a year, surely > > longer) and I never bothered replacing it because I always use just > > whatever hardware I have laying about whenever something goes bad on the > > box, and those damn power supply fans go out all the time and it's a pain > > to have to replace them. Yes, but they're put there for a good reason. Electronic devices last a lot longer if properly cooled. I hope you treat your classic computers more carefully (although isn't a 486 system likely to be a 'classic' by the charter of this list now?) > > FWIW, the 12V fans in Mac LC series machines seem to be of a lot better > quality than the nasty PC equivalent, and - at least round here - Mac > LC's are now even easier to come by than old AT-style PCs*. > > I imagine you'll find such a fan is a straight swap - I think they're AFAIK these fans are still being made, and are available from RS, Farnell, etc. Of course they're not cheap, but they tend to be better made than the ones from PC shops.... -tony From tomj at wps.com Wed Jun 2 18:40:29 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086219629.1960.22.camel@dhcp-249109.mobile.uci.edu> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 11:47, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > My voicemail PC died a pretty terrible death this morning. ... > The power supply fan went bad on it a while ago (over a year, surely > longer) and I never bothered replacing it Umm, power supply fans aren't optional. If the top of the box is hot you can be sure some hot components inside the box are 40 - 100 degrees hotter, the top of the box is a low average temp of the junk inside! If you're REALLY lazy, simply tape the replacement fan to the OUTSIDE of the power supply, pumping air in the right direction. The dud fan will be an obstruction, but 1/2 airflow beats none by a huge factor. tomj From kth at srv.net Wed Jun 2 18:59:56 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40BE69FC.9020309@srv.net> Tony Duell wrote: > >AFAIK these fans are still being made, and are available from RS, >Farnell, etc. Of course they're not cheap, but they tend to be better >made than the ones from PC shops.... > > I've had very bad luck with Radio Shack fans, if that is what you mean by RS. They always sieze up after less than a year of use. From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Wed Jun 2 18:11:48 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: OT: CRT EMI Shield References: Message-ID: <016801c448fc$f7287a00$bb72fea9@geoff> You'll get the same effect if you hold your mobile phone next to your monitor when it's transmitting - as on a call . Depending on the particular monitor anyway. I have a 15" monitor which is very susceptible, but my 17" doesn't bat an eyelid. If the scan is being modulated then it's a sort of rf ( 15625 is rf ) and not anything to do with degaussing. Degaussing only occurs at switch on .Possibly your old monitor has got line output fundamental or harmonic components which are radiating and getting into the line drive stages of the other monitors, thus causing the continuous ripple - effectively a " beat note " on the drive waveform. Thinking further, as it's an old monitor it probably puts out a lot more rf than a modern monitor due to the "possibly " lower efficiency of the drive ccts. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 6:03 PM Subject: Re: OT: CRT EMI Shield > >I wonder if degaussing the target monitor (one with interference), > >while the source monitor (creating the interference) was operating, would > >help? > > > >Some monitors have a built in degaussing function. > >Others do it when they power up. > > Nope, doesn't seem to make a difference. (one of the two distorted > monitors has a degaus button, the other I believe has a built in degauser > and I tried power cycling that one. Neither saw any change). > > >The above all assumes a magnetic interference. > >If it's localized to one, or a few, spots on the screen, with color shifts, > >that's likely what it is. > > What happens is, the image on the monitor on the bottom starts wobbling > and bouncing. And the scan lines become very pronounced. The monitor to > the side flickers and wobbles a bit. > > This only happens when the top monitor is turned on and "charged" (when I > first turn it on, there is about a 1 second pause before you hear the CRT > charge, during that pause there is no distortion). I can remove the > distortion by simply turning off the top monitor. Also, moving it about a > foot away gets rid of it as well (so worst case, I can install a shelf on > the wall a little higher up. Right now its sitting on a plastic monitor > shelf that rests directly on top of the monitor below). > > I'll see if I can try a newer, possibly better monitor as the top one and > see if the problem goes away (the one I picked to use is an older > monitor. Since it will not be used too heavily, I didn't want to > sacrifice a good monitor... but I'd rather have no problems then save on > a good monitor) > > >Of course that gets me to thinking of TEMPEST and someone reading your > >monitor from out in the street. :-) > > Humm... well, unless they are turning on and off their equipment at the > exact same time I turn on and off the top monitor... it seems unlikely. > Of course, if the screens are seeing this much distortion, I'm curious > what the 4 CRTs pointing at my chair is doing to my brain! > > -chris > > From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Wed Jun 2 18:33:40 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Nascom 2 cooling fan(s)?? References: <1086201922.15615.22.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <016901c448fc$f83ca920$bb72fea9@geoff> I'll dig out my old Nascom 2 over the next few days and let you have a copy of the manual-if you haven't got one. I can't think exactly where it is at the moment - but I have been out on the town . Geoff. + + ^ ~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: Nascom 2 cooling fan(s)?? > > Calling on the wisdom of list members here... > > How warm does a) the PSU and b) the logic circuitry get in a Nascom 2? > > I'm currently in the process of dismantling the enormous wooden box > which my acquired Nascom 2 came in and replacing it with a smaller old > wooden box with a hinged lid. > > Boards (I have CPU board + memory) will be mounted vertically, likely at > one end of the new box. Transformer + PSU will be at the opposite end. > > The machine as I got it had no fan in it, but then the horrible plywood > crate was almost big enough to live inside :-) It just had some > ventilation holes in the corner where the transformer was. > > I'm not sure whether I could really do with a fan blowing air over the > PSU, or even two, with one on the PSU and one on the card stack. Or > maybe passive cooling of PSU + cards is sufficient... > > Thoughts welcome. If I'm going to go the fan route I should really find > period fans I suppose! > > Incidentally the new box is about 14" wide x 10" deep x 14" high, with a > hinged lid, and large iron hinged handles at either end. All tounge and > groove wooden construction, using particularly soft wood of unknown > origin. In particularly ornate black script it reads "3" on the front > and "51 to 79" and "15 x 12" on one side. I have no idea what it was > used for, but put the age at probably around 1950 (possibly earlier). It > may well be military, Post Office, or railways I imagine. Anyone? > > I'll reproduce the black lettering on the finished machine I think even > though I have no idea what it means :-) The metal hinges and other > fittings have been in a electrolysis bath for the last day and are > looking particilarly nice. I'll keep the ports all round the back of the > box, then if I can somehow build a slimline case for the keyboard then > there'll be *just* enough room to stow the keyboard inside the box at > the top and close the lid :) > > cheers > > Jules From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 2 18:57:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Post Mortem Re: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did a post mortem on the box and found that two power transistors in the power supply were the culprits. They literally went out with a bang. My theory is that the sinewy dust ball I found stuck to their heatsinks probably caused an arc. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 2 19:01:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: <20040602224527.84749.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, William Maddox wrote: > The power supply fan is there to keep the power > supply cool. I'm not surprised that it died > catastrophically after being run with no fan. Oh? I thought it was just there to make a comforting whirring sound. ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Wed Jun 2 19:03:51 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death References: <40BE69FC.9020309@srv.net> Message-ID: <017f01c448fe$91016fa0$bb72fea9@geoff> No. RS is RS Components. The RS stands for Radiospares - and they've come a long way from selling duff electrolytics back in the sixties. :^) Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Handy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 12:59 AM Subject: Re: 486 dies terrible death > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > >AFAIK these fans are still being made, and are available from RS, > >Farnell, etc. Of course they're not cheap, but they tend to be better > >made than the ones from PC shops.... > > > > > I've had very bad luck with Radio Shack fans, if that is what you mean > by RS. They always sieze up after less than a year of use. > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 2 19:05:23 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > FWIW, the 12V fans in Mac LC series machines seem to be of a lot better > > quality than the nasty PC equivalent, and - at least round here - Mac > > LC's are now even easier to come by than old AT-style PCs*. > > > > I imagine you'll find such a fan is a straight swap - I think they're > > AFAIK these fans are still being made, and are available from RS, > Farnell, etc. Of course they're not cheap, but they tend to be better > made than the ones from PC shops.... I've got more power supplies than I care to have. More literally come through the door every week. I'd rather just let them die and replace the whole supply once in a great while and then recycle the dead unit rather than go through the nonsense of replacing the fan. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Wed Jun 2 19:12:40 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death References: Message-ID: <019101c448ff$7e217a00$bb72fea9@geoff> There is a new noise cancelling fan design out now which uses 4 mini - L /spkrs at the 4 fan corners plus electronics to kill fan sound. So next time you won't even know the fan has gone until the transistors tell you. Geoff. * * ! O ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 1:01 AM Subject: Re: 486 dies terrible death > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, William Maddox wrote: > > > The power supply fan is there to keep the power > > supply cool. I'm not surprised that it died > > catastrophically after being run with no fan. > > Oh? I thought it was just there to make a comforting whirring sound. > > ;) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 2 19:13:16 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death References: <40BE69FC.9020309@srv.net> <017f01c448fe$91016fa0$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <003a01c448ff$91acae50$de291941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 8:03 PM Subject: Re: 486 dies terrible death > No. RS is RS Components. The RS stands for Radiospares - and they've come a > long way from selling duff electrolytics back in the sixties. :^) > > Geoff. > > I usually buy a bunch of fans from these guys (if you use a MasterCard they still might have a 10% discount): http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=3X3-TYPHOON&cat=FAN You can replace the PS fan with these types if you have too (done it once). Its allot easier just to vacuum the dust out every once and a while. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 2 19:28:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406030028.RAA27826@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Don Maslin" > > >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Frank Smith wrote: > >> --On Wednesday, June 02, 2004 13:22:39 -0400 Damien Cymbal wrote: >> >> > Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies >> > told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. >> > >> > I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these >> > if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? >> >> I'd be willing to buy a box or two of them to use in my Altair floppy drives if >> they are 32 sector floppies. >> >> Frank > >To the best of my knowledge, all 8" hard sectored disk are 32 >sector. The only difference is between the 'normal' hard sector >arrangement where the sector holes encircle the hub hole, whereas >the 'Vydec' compatible disks have the sector holes around the >periphery. They are not common, however. > > - don > Hi Don I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. Dwight From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Jun 2 20:09:48 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 3M DC100 Tapes Message-ID: <005e01c44907$778e9c10$6e7ba8c0@p933> Phuong Tri writes: ---- would you, in your vast collection, have any 3M DC100 tapes that are for sale? or would you know of any source where i might find some? Unfortunately our computer only works on 3m tapes... we have tried other and have been unsuccessful. even better would be if anyone had these tapes new in an old closet that they wanted to sell. Thanks, Phuong Tri ---- Please contact Phuong directly at phuong.tri.NOSPAM@ottoinstrument.NOSPAM.com if you can help. Remove the obvious from the email address. Thanks! Erik S. Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From MTPro at aol.com Wed Jun 2 20:13:46 2004 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death Message-ID: <54.2b221a07.2defd54a@aol.com> In a message dated 6/2/2004 8:16:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cctalk-request@classiccmp.org writes: My voicemail PC died a pretty terrible death this morning. Poor 486; your assignment, if you choose to take it - create a new voicemail machine with an 8-bit computer. I mean c'mon, your the main vintage computer representative for our hobby! Plus, Sellam, add online access to check your messages too, that would be nice. Oh, and only use Cobol or Fortran to program it! 8-bit computers don't need no stinkin' fans! Thank you. Just harshin' ya! Best, David, classiccomputing.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 2 20:39:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death References: Message-ID: <000801c4490b$8c5512b0$de291941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 8:05 PM Subject: Re: 486 dies terrible death > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > FWIW, the 12V fans in Mac LC series machines seem to be of a lot better > > > quality than the nasty PC equivalent, and - at least round here - Mac > > > LC's are now even easier to come by than old AT-style PCs*. > > > > > > I imagine you'll find such a fan is a straight swap - I think they're > > > > AFAIK these fans are still being made, and are available from RS, > > Farnell, etc. Of course they're not cheap, but they tend to be better > > made than the ones from PC shops.... > > I've got more power supplies than I care to have. More literally come > through the door every week. I'd rather just let them die and replace the > whole supply once in a great while and then recycle the dead unit rather > than go through the nonsense of replacing the fan. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > Having extra supplies does not help if one decides to catch fire and burn your house down. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 2 21:39:21 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: <54.2b221a07.2defd54a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 MTPro@aol.com wrote: > Poor 486; your assignment, if you choose to take it - create a new > voicemail machine with an 8-bit computer. I mean c'mon, your the main > vintage computer representative for our hobby! Plus, Sellam, add online > access to check your messages too, that would be nice. Oh, and only use > Cobol or Fortran to program it! 8-bit computers don't need no stinkin' > fans! Thank you. Cobol on an 8-bit? Blech. I mean, I've seen it, but blech. At any rate, this has been done. There used to be an answering machine for the Apple ][ that used the AppleCat as a telephony interface. It used S.A.M. (Software Automated Mouth) to speak the outgoing message, and a remote controlled cassette recorded to record the message. With enough memory, you could've just digitized the incoming message through the cassette port (I don't know if anyone ever actually tried this). As far as checking your messages online, that too would be possible with an internet enabled gateway connected to the Apple over a serial port ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 2 21:40:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: <000801c4490b$8c5512b0$de291941@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Having extra supplies does not help if one decides to catch fire and burn > your house down. Woof. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 18:03:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Terminet30 In-Reply-To: <9726BA9DE867D51183B900B0D0AB85F802F128AE@INETMAIL> from "RMaxwell@atlantissi.com" at Jun 2, 4 06:49:03 pm Message-ID: > The Terminet 30 looks much more (late 70's?) modern than the old Terminet > 300 I used as a letter-quality printer back in 1982-3. It was big and heavy > (and old even then), with a rack of cards attached to the back containing Called the 'Bustle' in the ICL service manual. Seriously :-) > the logic. I saw a fellow working on one with the lid up - wearing a tie. > Never do that. Fortunately, the band drive had stall detection, or it could > have been serious. Eeek!. There's quite a sizeable motor in there... Also watch out for high voltages all over the place. Not just on obvious 'mains' things -- the fluorescent lamp to illuminate the paper and the motor, but also 100V or so on the hammer driver card and solenoids. Touching that can ruin your day... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 22:17:46 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: <40BE69FC.9020309@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Jun 2, 4 05:59:56 pm Message-ID: > I've had very bad luck with Radio Shack fans, if that is what you mean > by RS. They always sieze up after less than a year of use. No, RS is RS Components ('Radiospares' to those who've been doing electronics as long as I have) -- see http://www.rswww.com (IIRC). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 22:32:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 2, 4 05:05:23 pm Message-ID: > I've got more power supplies than I care to have. More literally come > through the door every week. I'd rather just let them die and replace the > whole supply once in a great while and then recycle the dead unit rather JUst hope that the supply doesn't do damage to any other part of the machine (or indeed catch fire and do damage to anything else), and that the rest of the machine doesn't run too hot (the PSU fan cools other components too in most PCs). > than go through the nonsense of replacing the fan. If you once replaced the fan with a decent one, it would carry on working for 5 years or more. -tony From anheier at owt.com Wed Jun 2 22:47:42 2004 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Unibus DEC board FS Message-ID: I need to raise some cash for bike parts. I have the following unibus boards for sale. They are in reasonable shape, but I have no way of testing them. I would like $15 each. Paypal works well for me. Offers for complete set will be considered. List: M7859- KY11-LB 11/34 console interface card M7258- LP11/LS11 interface M9313- unibus exerciser & terminator M7800- Async transmitter- RSVR, KL11 M7454- TU80 unibus interface 2 each M8256- RX211 unibus RX02 interface misc Translation Technology Inc card Thanks Norm From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Wed Jun 2 23:02:43 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Qwint Systems? References: <20040523215806.84348.qmail@web11808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, in case anyone is interested in becoming the proud owner of it (via VCM): http://marketplace.vintage.org/bid.cfm?ad=910 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loboyko Steve" To: Sent: Sunday, May 23, 2004 5:58 PM Subject: Re: Qwint Systems? > What you probably have is a Qwint 740 or 780 (I'd have > to see it to know what model). It was the smallest > plain paper teletype replacement probably ever built. .. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 2 21:42:10 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: HP 7906 drive lives again & stuff References: <00af01c448c9$6128b2a0$0701a8c0@ami1704> Message-ID: <000e01c44914$5ef1e060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Yes, I have pretty much everything documentation-wise on the 7906 that one could possibly want. Tell me what you want to know about the transformer wires. I'm assuming you're referring to the ones connected to the PMR board (A8)? I believe there's two, haven't looked in a while. Let me know and I'll dig up the info for you. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keld S?rensen" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 12:45 PM Subject: HP 7906 drive lives again & stuff > Hi Jay ! > > Years back I scrapped a 7906 and I have some components left - do you have some documentation on the hardware. > > I want to know something about the wires on the main transformer. > > Regards > Keld S?rensen > Denmark > > From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 3 00:15:00 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <200406030028.RAA27826@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >From: "Don Maslin" > > > > > >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Frank Smith wrote: > > > >> --On Wednesday, June 02, 2004 13:22:39 -0400 Damien Cymbal > wrote: > >> > >> > Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes > of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on > epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell > alot of 8" floppies > >> > told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > >> > > >> > I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices > (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of > these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me > holding on to these > >> > if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and > ship them? > >> > >> I'd be willing to buy a box or two of them to use in my Altair floppy drives > if > >> they are 32 sector floppies. > >> > >> Frank > > > >To the best of my knowledge, all 8" hard sectored disk are 32 > >sector. The only difference is between the 'normal' hard sector > >arrangement where the sector holes encircle the hub hole, whereas > >the 'Vydec' compatible disks have the sector holes around the > >periphery. They are not common, however. > > > > - don > > > > Hi Don > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > Dwight I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! - don From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 3 00:17:41 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? Message-ID: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> I started to worry about lead paint problem when buying an old house. I bought a lead test kit and tested the paint chips from the windows and fould them to be positive. Then I tested some computer boards, and the result was postive too. Have you ever found white powders near solder on your vintage board? They are most likely lead dioxide. When you power up your vintage computers, some lead dust will be blown to the air and inhaled by your kids... Well, the last sentence is my pure imagination. Has anybody done any research on this issue? To be safe, I am going to throw most of my boards to attic, which are lying on the floor and accessible to my two year old daughter. vax, 3900 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jun 3 00:37:39 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies References: Message-ID: <001c01c4492c$e32b4930$2201a8c0@finans> >Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? . >I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). > What systems made use of these? I doubt if you will find any systems in use today using 8" hard sectored disks. The most recent used I noticed, was for IBM system/6 word processing. Soft sectored are still useful, depending on density etc. They were used extensively on IBM 374x data entry systems, and (after having put some data on them) on IBM 3540 readers. They were also used a lot on other systems, too many to mention. They came in various flavours : single or double sided, low or high density, capacity from 251K to 1.2 megs, sectorsizes from 128 to 1024 bytes. When used on IBM systems, track 0 was always written with 26 x 128 bytes, the rest could be different. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 2 22:16:04 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: References: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 2, 4 05:05:23 pm Message-ID: <20040603071607.WWNS14757.tomts22-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > > I've got more power supplies than I care to have. More literally come > > through the door every week. I'd rather just let them die and replace the > > whole supply once in a great while and then recycle the dead unit rather > > JUst hope that the supply doesn't do damage to any other part of the > machine (or indeed catch fire and do damage to anything else), and that > the rest of the machine doesn't run too hot (the PSU fan cools other > components too in most PCs). > > > than go through the nonsense of replacing the fan. > > If you once replaced the fan with a decent one, it would carry on working > for 5 years or more. Tony is correct. Also risk management against fire and data loss. Pick a quality heavy PSU from your pile and check fan is a ball bearing, the part number on google will say if it is. If not, grab one from one of your scrap that has ball bearing with thermal sensor for rpm control and put that in and your 486 should last forever with occasional dust cleanings and much quieter. Few months ago, at our tv shop caught a work PC with dead fan and took it down and put in decent PC (IBM business-type pc celeron 333 instead of generic pc slooow 100MHz.) I manage six networked PCs and few loose PCs for testing monitors. Just yesterday had to tell boss to get shop's funds and bought a DVI video card to test monitors that has DVI. 2 years ago when I first came to work for that tv shop computers were junky and lurching from problem to another to a humming speedy reliable group. Bought several PCs from local pc store that has off lease PCs for sale, only cost us about 200 to get three. One of them replaced server early on (MII Cryix, oh the horrors!!). Second pc got robbed for quality parts to fix and upgrade other PCs, third one was the latest install few months ago. Every PC got branded NICs 10/100 (3com, intel and one digital tulip) intead of generic reltek NICs (YUCK!) all dug from used machines from same source and my parts. One comment, a front customer service pc does only one job and still going for years has JTS HD in it. (!!) It was there when I came there to work. Cheers, Wizard From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Thu Jun 3 02:56:41 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: interesting DEC, HP, CDC parts References: <00af01c448c9$6128b2a0$0701a8c0@ami1704> <000e01c44914$5ef1e060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <40BED9B9.7010106@gmx.net> Hi list, while browsing the net I found the following link http://www.recycledgoods.com/ look under Computers Vintage -> Mainframe there are at least some interesting DEC parts. Disclaimer: Don't know anything about their service/reliability. Gerold From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 03:09:11 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: interesting DEC, HP, CDC parts In-Reply-To: <40BED9B9.7010106@gmx.net> References: <00af01c448c9$6128b2a0$0701a8c0@ami1704> <000e01c44914$5ef1e060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <40BED9B9.7010106@gmx.net> Message-ID: >while browsing the net I found the following link >http://www.recycledgoods.com/ >look under Computers Vintage -> Mainframe >there are at least some interesting DEC parts. >Disclaimer: >Don't know anything about their service/reliability. Interesting, their prices seem all over the map, though for the most part unrealistically high. HP fans should check out the "Terminals" section of "Computers Vintage" as there are some HP computers in there. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Thu Jun 3 03:20:17 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: interesting DEC, HP, CDC parts References: <00af01c448c9$6128b2a0$0701a8c0@ami1704> <000e01c44914$5ef1e060$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <40BED9B9.7010106@gmx.net> Message-ID: <40BEDF41.3010008@gmx.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Interesting, their prices seem all over the map, though for the most > part unrealistically high. HP fans should check out the "Terminals" > section of "Computers Vintage" as there are some HP computers in there. Agreed, I didn't look at the prices because shipping to germany is far too expensive anyway. Gerold From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 3 05:14:25 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: 17 Apple Powerbooks wanted (UK) Message-ID: <1086257665.16730.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Any UK collectors of newer Apple stuff out there? Someone from a TV company contacted Bletchley museum earlier wanting to hire 17 Apple Powerbooks to film. All of our stuff tends to be significantly older :-) Sounds like the machines don't need to be runners. If anyone does have a few (even if they don't have 17!) and is interested then shout and I can put you in touch. cheers Jules From edward at groenenberg.net Wed Jun 2 17:01:25 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: RK07 diskheads Message-ID: <40BE4E35.9CFCE980@groenenberg.net> Hi all, Just a quick question, are the heads in an RK07 the same as in an RL02? They awfully look the same, so I was just wondering..... Ed -- From pzachary at sasquatch.com Wed Jun 2 21:46:22 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pavl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Data I/O device pinout codes In-Reply-To: <200405282157.i4SLv2Js012595@spies.com> References: <200405282157.i4SLv2Js012595@spies.com> Message-ID: <04060219462200.00908@localhost.localdomain> Well, some help on use would be nice, I am attempting to copy a M9312 rom hitting COPY from DEVICE it asks for (address/size) what sort of value is this? then to RAM (address) what would be a good value for this? I took a guess or two and got "dev exceeded 98" or "prog pack err 35". thanks, Pavl_ On Friday 28 May 2004 02:57 pm, you wrote: > "29B" is the base programmer, you need to know what > programming adapter you have. Unipak 2 or 2B is the > most common but doesn't support some of the older > parts. > > Select codes can be found at http://www.geocities.com/jkh9081/dataIO/ > or on Data I/O's ftp site > ftp://ftp.dataio.com/device_lists/_archive/ From kennj at telusplanet.net Wed Jun 2 23:10:07 2004 From: kennj at telusplanet.net (kenn Jorgensen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software Message-ID: <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> Guess I'll add my two bits worth... To get the terminal emulator working you need to (and I quote from the manual): 1. Insert the HP 4952A PROTOCOL ANALYZER UTILITY Disc into the HP 4952A disc drive. 2. Press the "more" key unitl key appears. 3. Press the key. 4. Place the cursor on "TERM" and press . 5. Press key to load Async Terminal Emulator application program. 6. If the application loaded properly the HP 4952A display should be as follows: After the application is loaded, a new key appears in the top-level menu (by pressing the key) called . This key accesses the Terminal Setup menu where the terminal parameters can be set and the emulator run. That utility disc also has a "copy disc" utility that can copy entire floppy discs, but your 4952A requires the extended memory option (option 002) to be able to do that. The original floppy is copied into memory, then later copied from memory to the target disc. The format on disc is LIF, HP's standard floppy disc format back before MSDOS and FAT formatted floppies dominated the world :-) Ordinary 1.44MB IBM formatted 2HD floppies work just fine as target discs. I own two discs for the 4952A: - Utlity disc containing sample menus and data, copy disc application, and async terminal emulator application. This disc was originally included with the HP 18260A interface pod. - HP 18621A SNA Analysis disc. Anybody out there have any of the other cool discs? ... - HP 18263A 3270 Installation and Maintenance Software - HP 18264A X.25 and SNA Level Link Level Statistics - HP 18265A DDCMP Analysis - HP 18266A Enhanced X.25 Analysis Kenn have the - power up the 4952A - insert the appropriate floppy into the drive - press the "more" key until the "mass store" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 3 05:48:28 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Nascom 2 cooling fan(s)?? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086259708.16730.26.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 22:54, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > How warm does a) the PSU and b) the logic circuitry get in a Nascom 2? > > Wel,, the PSU is linear, and the logic is not exactly low-power, but I've > never seen one with a fan. But a muffin fan can't hurt! Aha. I'm actually toying with the idea of not doing any cutting to the old box which'll house this machine. I'm wondering about mounting the sockets (power / keyboard / serial etc.) horizontally inside the case above where the PSU will sit. That way when the machine's not being used it looks just lke a piece of furniture and there's no way of telling that it's a computer at all. It just means the lide needs to be open a fraction in order to feed cables out - but that also means I can hopefully get away without the need for cooling vents as the heat will naturally escape out the top then. > > Boards (I have CPU board + memory) will be mounted vertically, likely at > > Ah, so you got the free emmeory board too. Story is that the Nascom CPU > board was designed to take 4118 IK byte RAMs, but they were in short > supply, so they shipped the machine with a 16K (or something) DRAM board. Interesting. I've got one 4118 on the main CPU board of mine, plugged in right next to the TV modulator (plus a second 4118 elsewhere for the video RAM). Then there's 16 sockets for DRAM on the memory board, but mine's only populated with 8 4116 chips. The memory board also has 4 larger sockets on it though, one of which has an EPROM fitted. Wonder what the contents are, as I assume it's a user-addition rather than it being something required for the machine to operate... > A word of warning. Check you've connected the keyboard to the right plug > on the CPU board. If you plug it into the serial connector by mistake you > will do a lot of damage! And the keyboard came pre-assembled so there's > no scheamtic in the manual... Heh - actually I had a good look at all of that as I had to strip the machine from its original awful case (and lots of stuff had been soldered rather than using proper connectors). At least on my board the keyboard and serial sockets are labelled, and the corresponding IDC plugs do say which is pin 1, so I should be OK :-) cheers Jules From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 06:05:41 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software In-Reply-To: <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> References: <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: <20040603110541.GA6720@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:10:07PM -0600, kenn Jorgensen wrote: > The format on disc is LIF, HP's standard floppy disc format > back before MSDOS and FAT formatted floppies dominated the > world :-) Ordinary 1.44MB IBM formatted 2HD floppies work > just fine as target discs. Is it possible to backup LIF disks with non-HP hardware? I have a 4952C and no diskettes (I also have a couple of older HP line analyzers with TU-58-style tapes). I'd love to be able to put some interesting software on my 4852C. I'd be especially interested in a terminal emulator, as well as any SNA or bisync (HASP/3780) software for it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Jun-2004 11:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86.7 F (-66.0 C) Windchill -120.8 F (-84.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 100 Barometer 659.8 mb (11396. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bert at brothom.nl Thu Jun 3 07:47:57 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Unibus DEC board FS References: Message-ID: <40BF1DFD.70F5BCEE@brothom.nl> Norm and Beth Anheier wrote: > > M9313- unibus exerciser & terminator What is a unibus exerciser? Bert From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 06:26:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:10 2005 Subject: Brian Instruments BRIKON model 723 floppy drive tester/analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <40BD3C10.C3C7784B@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603072608.008a5420@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Tony is correct. The 723 can operate 3", 3.5", 5.25" and 8" drives. I'm still looking for my manual. But I've found a couple of other interesting manuals while looking for the one for the Brikon unit. Joe At 11:27 PM 6/2/04 +0100, you wrote: >[Drive exerciser cables] > >> - A wider 50 pin ribbon that mates with a PC-board-edge >> connector. I don't know what kind of drive this >> cable is for! > >The most likely guess is that it's for an 8" drive (SA800-like >interface). > >> - the second lead ends with a strange 6 pin (2 rows of 3) >> connector that probably fits what ever monster the above >> 50 pin ribbon cable was intended to mate with :-) > >Amd that spounds like an 8" drive power connector. > >-tony > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 06:29:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603072908.008a8210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I can use them if they're still available. They were used in the Tektronix 8051, DG Novas (IIRC) and the Altairs with 8" drives and lot of early computers. Joe At 01:22 PM 6/2/04 -0400, you wrote: >Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > >I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? > From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 07:08:32 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy@earthlink.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> just to keep terminology correct... the 8" inch came as single or double density - high density entered the marketplace with the introduction of the IBM AT in 1985 that had 5 1/4" high density disk drives. Maybe internationally things were referred to as low and high density, but not to my recollection in the States or in any drive datasheets I have seen. best regards, Steve Thatcher From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jun 3 07:28:28 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> Message-ID: <000a01c44966$46b7a9b0$2201a8c0@finans> Subject: RE: Re: 8" hard sectored floppies > > just to keep terminology correct... the 8" inch came as single > or double density - high density entered the marketplace with > the introduction of the IBM AT in 1985 that had 5 1/4" high density > disk drives. You are right, I'm sorry. I keep making the same error time and time again. Probably old-age related... Thanks Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 07:02:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: RK07 diskheads In-Reply-To: <40BE4E35.9CFCE980@groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603080248.0098eac0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Speaking of disk heads. Does anyone know of an easy way to identify them? I found a big pile of NOS ones that the writing has faded off of the boxs. I know it's probably impoosible to identify EVERY head ever made but I thought it might be possible to identify some of the more common ones. Joe At 12:01 AM 6/3/04 +0200, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Just a quick question, are the heads in an RK07 the same as in an RL02? >They awfully look the same, so I was just wondering..... > >Ed > >-- > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 07:22:47 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Data I/O device pinout codes In-Reply-To: <04060219462200.00908@localhost.localdomain> References: <200405282157.i4SLv2Js012595@spies.com> <200405282157.i4SLv2Js012595@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603082247.00853230@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:46 PM 6/2/04 -0700, you wrote: >Well, some help on use would be nice, I am attempting to copy a M9312 rom >hitting COPY from DEVICE it asks for (address/size) what sort of value is >this? It's asking if you want to read the FIRST address in the ROM and if you want to read ALL the addresses. Normally you'd just enter 0 (the first address) and the size of the ROM (512) and read the entire thing. But it gives you the option to read only part of the ROM and you don't have to read starting at address 0. IIRC the M9312 ROM is 512 in length so enter 0 and 512 to read the entire thing. Actually I think you have to enter the address in hex and since 0 counts as an address, the last address would be 511 or 1FF hex. IIRC2 the M9312 ROM is only 4 bits wide and the programmer operates with 8 bit words so you're probably going to have to tell the programmer weather to use the upper or lower nybble of data when you start to burn a new ROM. >then to RAM (address) what would be a good value for this? Again it's giving you the option to load the dats somewhere in RAM besides at the beginning. This is so you can "patch" code together. For your purposes just load it at the beginning (address 0). These are common options and are found in just about any decent programmer. BTW Found my 29B manual if you have specific questions. > I took a guess or two and got "dev exceeded 98" The means that the amount of data exceeded the last address but I don't know if it means the last address in the ROM or the programmer's RAM. In other words you did something like telling it to read 513 bytes of data from a 512 byte device. >or "prog pack err 35". That's an error from the plug-in pak so you'll have to look it up in the pak's manual. I haven't been following this thread closely and I still don't know what pak you're using so I can't help here. But I suspect it's address related. Joe > >thanks, > Pavl_ > >On Friday 28 May 2004 02:57 pm, you wrote: >> "29B" is the base programmer, you need to know what >> programming adapter you have. Unipak 2 or 2B is the >> most common but doesn't support some of the older >> parts. >> >> Select codes can be found at http://www.geocities.com/jkh9081/dataIO/ >> or on Data I/O's ftp site >> ftp://ftp.dataio.com/device_lists/_archive/ > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 07:35:18 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software In-Reply-To: <20040603110541.GA6720@bos7.spole.gov> References: <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603083518.009283b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:05 AM 6/3/04 +0000, you wrote: >On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:10:07PM -0600, kenn Jorgensen wrote: >> The format on disc is LIF, HP's standard floppy disc format >> back before MSDOS and FAT formatted floppies dominated the >> world :-) Ordinary 1.44MB IBM formatted 2HD floppies work >> just fine as target discs. > >Is it possible to backup LIF disks with non-HP hardware? Yes, you can use the LIF Utiles (released to public domain and posted on the net) to read the disks and translate the files into a MS-DOS fromat. Or MS-DOS's DiskCopy may be able to make a straight copy of the disk even though it's not in a MS-DOS format. If DiskCopy doesn't work then TeleDisk certainly should. Joe > >I have a 4952C and no diskettes (I also have a couple of >older HP line analyzers with TU-58-style tapes). I'd love >to be able to put some interesting software on my 4852C. > >I'd be especially interested in a terminal emulator, as well >as any SNA or bisync (HASP/3780) software for it. > >-ethan > >-- >Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Jun-2004 11:00 Z >South Pole Station >PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86.7 F (-66.0 C) Windchill -120.8 F (-84.90 C) >APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 100 Barometer 659.8 mb (11396. ft) > >Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 3 08:08:01 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: RK07 diskheads Message-ID: Our resident DEC expert says they are, but he can't remember for sure. (He used to fix them) >From: Ed >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctech@classiccmp.org >Subject: RK07 diskheads >Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:01:25 +0200 > >Hi all, > >Just a quick question, are the heads in an RK07 the same as in an RL02? >They awfully look the same, so I was just wondering..... > >Ed > >-- _________________________________________________________________ Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage! http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 3 08:29:58 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <10405290926.ZM28158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10405290926.ZM28158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1BB4FFEA-B562-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> > On May 28, 12:57, McFadden, Mike wrote: >> Flooded computer room OK, three stories (all true as far as I can remember them). 1) Arrived at work early on Monday morning (first in). As I walked along the corridor to the computer room I thought I could hear water running. Open door to computer room (you had to walk through the computer room to my office). Sounds of water get much louder. Water is pouring from the ceiling tiles onto the top of the VAX-11/780, then down the doors and onto the false floor. Naturally the VAX is still running. Problem - no "big red button" so the only way to power it off is via the circuit breakers on the back. Find a broom with a wooden handle and power it all off. The problem had occurred three floors up on Friday night and with the building locked up over the weekend the broken pipe had done a fair bit of damage. 2) At the next job I had we had built a new computer room for our MicroVAXen. We had two in a cluster (one in the world box, on in a H9642 rack). One evening I get a phone call from work, "you'd better come in as we have a water leak in the computer room and we don't know what to do". OK, setting new records for the trip from home to work I arrive to be greeted by the building supervisor. Up to the computer room - now we'd always referred to it as the fish bowl as three of the four walls were glass which allowed me to see the 12" or so of water. Now this room didn't have a false floor, just ducts to carry power and data. We did have a big red button though. Problem was that the doors opened inwards and it wasn't easy to open them. Also that water (which was from the airconditioner input) was COLD! Also lots of fun watching the cooling fans from the lower RA81 generate spray. Still after drying things out everything still worked. 3) Problem 2 was caused by a plastic filter in the chilled water input to the airconditioning unit failing. It was replaced. The following Friday I got a phone call from work - "err, the computer room is full of water". Yep, the replacement metal filter had fallen off the pipe and by the time I got to work the water was even deeper. At least I had gum boots this time (for UK readers, that'd be Wellingtons). We had a couple of large drains installed in the floor after this to avoid waste water from the computer room contaminating the mouse rooms below. The first flood meant that the contents of one of the two mouse rooms being lost and at something like $10 each the financial cost was quite high. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 3 08:41:45 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: DEC VT102 terminal question? In-Reply-To: <10406022034.ZM2721@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <008d01c431d9$e6504120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <3C82B6AD-B49C-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> <10406022034.ZM2721@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On 3 Jun 2004, at 05:34, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 2, 23:53, Huw Davies wrote: >> Sounds like a WPS or WPS+ keypad. It's been a long while since I've >> seen one but it sounds right! > > It was a moderately common option, used by several editors. For > example, ED and EDT for RSX-11 used those keys; the GOLD key in > particular labelled as such on editor reference cards and is used by a > variety of software. When I was using VT100 type terminals (I had a VT132) we used to purchase (probably at great cost) moulded "rubber" overlays for the keypad for EDT and the word processer we used (I want to say DECtype but I'm not sure that's the right name - a classic case of one group in DEC competing with another - it was like WPS and WPS+ but different). Of course, after a couple of years of programming, you didn't need the overlays. I suspect that I could still do an awful lot of EDT on the keypad from finger memory, except that I don't have a suitable keyboard in daily use and dragging out the DECmate-III just to use the terminal emulator seems a little overkill. My day to day keyboard is attached to my 12" Apple Powerbook and I typically use vi everywhere. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Thu Jun 3 08:43:24 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms Message-ID: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Huw Davies wrote: > to avoid waste water from the computer room contaminating the > mouse rooms below. What's a mouse room? MS From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 3 08:45:49 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 17 Apple Powerbooks wanted (UK) In-Reply-To: <1086257665.16730.6.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1086257665.16730.6.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <52B9BA64-B564-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 3 Jun 2004, at 20:14, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Any UK collectors of newer Apple stuff out there? Someone from a TV > company contacted Bletchley museum earlier wanting to hire 17 Apple > Powerbooks to film. All of our stuff tends to be significantly older > :-) > > Sounds like the machines don't need to be runners. A new series of Spooks in the wind perhaps? Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 3 08:51:59 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <2F662F21-B565-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 3 Jun 2004, at 23:43, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Huw Davies wrote: > >> to avoid waste water from the computer room contaminating the >> mouse rooms below. > > What's a mouse room? A room filled with mice (the rodent variety). The place I was working at was a bio-medical research institute and they used mice for various experimental purposes. The mice were genetically identical, hence the cost per mouse being reasonably high. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From wacarder at usit.net Thu Jun 3 09:20:27 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603072908.008a8210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I have a DEC RX01 drive and the box of floppies that I have with it are 8 inch single sided single density. Are 8" hard sectored floppies compatible with these? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 7:29 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 8" hard sectored floppies I can use them if they're still available. They were used in the Tektronix 8051, DG Novas (IIRC) and the Altairs with 8" drives and lot of early computers. Joe At 01:22 PM 6/2/04 -0400, you wrote: >Are hard sectored 8" floppies of any use to anyone? I've got several boxes of still shrink-wrapped SSSD hard sector disks. I've sold a couple boxes on epay, but action on them was lower than I'd imagined. Some folks who resell alot of 8" floppies told me "good luck" because hard sectored just don't sell. > >I've seen new soft sectored disks advertised online for fairly hefty prices (don't know if they are selling at that price or not). What systems made use of these? Any that I might own or want to own some day that it'd be worth me holding on to these if I can't sell them for a price worth it to drive to the post office and ship them? > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 3 09:16:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16575.13012.469155.779964@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "SHAUN" == SHAUN RIPLEY writes: SHAUN> I started to worry about lead paint problem when buying an old SHAUN> house. I bought a lead test kit and tested the paint chips SHAUN> from the windows and fould them to be positive. Then I tested SHAUN> some computer boards, and the result was postive too. Have you SHAUN> ever found white powders near solder on your vintage board? SHAUN> They are most likely lead dioxide. True. Ditto for any computer except, maybe, some made in the past year or so. I'd say you should look for boards with corrosion like that on them and clean them with a suitable solvent. If you find any, that would mean the boards weren't correctly cleaned when they were last soldered. Unless the factory was really incompetent, it should have been cleaned right at that stage -- so any leftover flux is usually from field repairs. Quite independent of any health hazards (not clear if there's enough lead there to be a real issue) corrosion could make the circuit stop working... paul From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jun 3 10:25:25 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies References: Message-ID: <001401c4497e$feac2ce0$2201a8c0@finans> > I have a DEC RX01 drive and the box of floppies that I have > with it are 8 inch single sided single density. Are 8" hard > sectored floppies compatible with these? Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. When speaking of hard sectored disks, you will normally find the number of sectors on the label. If there is no label, or you cant find the number, you can turn the disk around within the envelope. Soft sectored disks have only one synchronisation hole, hard sectored disks (number of sectors) + 1. The "real" synchronisation hole is often (if I recall correctly) a bit "out of line", i.e. a bit further away from the center of the disk. I do not know from the top of my head if RX01 drives are soft-sectored Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 From cfandt at netsync.net Thu Jun 3 10:30:20 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Unibus DEC board FS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040603112318.021e22b0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Hi Norm, I'd like to buy the M7859 (1st item in your list), the M9313 (3rd item) and one M8256 (6th item). If you prefer offer on the lot of eight cards I'd go $90 plus shipping. I do not use Paypal. Would a money order work for you? Could you tell me a bit more about the Translation Technology Inc card? Thanks! -Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 08:47 PM 6/2/04 -0700, Norm and Beth Anheier said something like: >I need to raise some cash for bike parts. I have the following unibus >boards for sale. They are in reasonable shape, but I have no way of >testing them. I would like $15 each. Paypal works well for me. >Offers for complete set will be considered. >List: > >M7859- KY11-LB 11/34 console interface card >M7258- LP11/LS11 interface >M9313- unibus exerciser & terminator >M7800- Async transmitter- RSVR, KL11 >M7454- TU80 unibus interface >2 each M8256- RX211 unibus RX02 interface >misc Translation Technology Inc card > >Thanks Norm > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 3 10:59:55 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: paper tape replacement Message-ID: <016301c44983$d01fb9a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11805&item=3818543149&rd=1 Thought some folks might be interested. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Jun 3 11:37:48 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms Message-ID: I will now tell you the most unusual water problem we ever had in out computer room. The drop ceiling above out Printronix and Versatec line printers collapsed on them. It dumped water and grunge all over the printers. The hammers on the Printronix rusted and we had to replace them. You ask how the water got in the ceiling well here is the story. Our computer center was on the 10th floor of an 11 story office building in the Northwest Plaza shopping center in Saint Louis. For Christmas the shopping center managers decided to install a very large Santa Claus on the roof, flown in by helicopter in 2 sections and assembled on the roof. The Santa was to be held up by a metal frame bolted to the roof. The installation crew drilled holes in the roof, missed the beam and punched right through the roof. They just shoved a little gravel over the incorrect hole and drilled a new one. The next melting snow and rain filled up the roof and drained through the hole into one of the unoccupied 11th floor offices above our computer room and then leaked down through the floor into the drop ceiling. The wet ceiling was too heavy and crashed down onto the printers. BTW After Christmas the Santa was lain down on the roof and covered by a tarp. You could see the tips of the boots under the tarp all year. Mike From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Thu Jun 3 12:17:59 2004 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore S Bekkedal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Hans Franke, are you listening? Message-ID: <1086283076.10131.27.camel@nelja.ifi.uio.no> I'm mailing this to CCTECH as I can't find Hans Franke's e-mail Hello, I was just googling about the Siemens 6-611 you offered to help me out with not too long ago, as somehow I missed your previous reply. Yes! Anything you have on this machine is most definitely interesting. Please tell me if you have anything at all, both docs and software are fun. (meanwhile, I'm STILL looking for the damned female-female DB9 cable for the terminal) I'll send pics when I get my camera back. Anyway, more info about the system. It's got a male DB9 port labeled Display Unit, which I'm assuming should lead to the CRT I've got here. It's got a port labeled Channel A, V.24, and one labeled Channel B, Adapter 1, and with a ballpen someone has written "current loop". There are seven more male DB9s, labeled Optional Cluster Terminal Connectors, seven in all. Now, the interesting thing is that the mainboard, and most of the circuit boards, are labelled Tandberg Data! (Tandberg Data is a Norwegian computer manufacturer, making fairly popular X terminals, and serial terminals too. Its serial number is 901504, It has a TAN number, 7001, which I don't know what means, but you probably do :) It has a diskette drive, 8". On the back of the unit is a list of options, including the disk drive, a Character Generator, a Cluster Interface Option, a Option Boards Mounting Kit. If their TANs or any other numbers matter, please mail me, and I'll give them to you. Additionally, the CRT has video in and out, are these PAL TV compatible? Thanks in advance!! (And, to the list, sorry for this, but I'm really eager to get this beautiful beast working :) ) -tsb "If it ain't broke, take it apart and find out why." From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 3 12:25:20 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <001401c4497e$feac2ce0$2201a8c0@finans> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603132042.04cc86f0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Nico de Jong may have mentioned these words: > > I have a DEC RX01 drive and the box of floppies that I have > > with it are 8 inch single sided single density. Are 8" hard > > sectored floppies compatible with these? > >Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. Ah, never say never, my friend! ;-) I know little about 8" floppies, but I know that Apple ][ 5.25" drives (which used GCR encoding, IIRC) could use hard or soft sector floppies. It actually wrote an "index blip" (for lack of the correct term) on the disk itself during format & used that instead of any physical hole(s) in the disk. Just my $0.000000000000002, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 12:39:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Roger Merchberger" > >Rumor has it that Nico de Jong may have mentioned these words: > >> > I have a DEC RX01 drive and the box of floppies that I have >> > with it are 8 inch single sided single density. Are 8" hard >> > sectored floppies compatible with these? >> >>Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. > >Ah, never say never, my friend! ;-) > >I know little about 8" floppies, but I know that Apple ][ 5.25" drives >(which used GCR encoding, IIRC) could use hard or soft sector floppies. It >actually wrote an "index blip" (for lack of the correct term) on the disk >itself during format & used that instead of any physical hole(s) in the disk. > Hi I also believe that one can use hard sectored disk in place of soft sectored disk in most machines( of course formatted as soft sectored ). There is a difference between single and double density that is related to the position of the index hole. My understanding is that unlike the 5-1/4 disks, the 8 in. media is the same for the single and double density, just higher quality. In fact, I punch a new index window in some of my double density 8 inch floppies and I've been using them, with no troubles, as single density. The 5-1/4 disk are a different story. Single/Double don't mix. Dwight From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 12:54:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: paper tape replacement Message-ID: <200406031754.KAA28520@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" >> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11805&item=3818543149&rd =1 > >Thought some folks might be interested. > >Jay > Hi Jay Although, it is an interesting machine at $10, it isn't quite so interesting at $125. I do most the same thing now with my laptop when working on my Nicolet. I connect the serial to the Nicolet. When I actually have to read a punch tape, I made a cable to connect the laptop's parallel port ( bi-directional ) to a high speed tape reader I have. I keep the tape images in files and can even write to floppies, just like the machine on eBay ( wow! ). Dwight From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Jun 3 13:20:20 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Data I/O device pinout codes References: <200405282157.i4SLv2Js012595@spies.com> <04060219462200.00908@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40BF6BE4.998E120@msm.umr.edu> the copy from device address is relative to the device. if you have a 2k device, then your answer would have to be between 0 and 2k-1 (or a copy would make no sense). you have to supply size if you don't supply 0 as an answer (to keep from reading off the end of the device.) the ram address allows you to skew the read to somewhere in ram other than aligned with the device address. again, you need to be aware of the size of ram to keep from writing off the end of the ram. if I recall the unit I had could do 2764's in one pass, so had 8k bytes of ram. if you had to do a 27128, you would do two passes. copy from device 0-8k to ram 0-8k program at 0 to 27128 copy from device 8k-16k to ram 0-8k program at 8k to 27128 a 27256 took 4 passes, and so forth. I had both 29a and 29b's and this sort of thing worked for both, whether with unipak or later version. jim pavl wrote: > Well, some help on use would be nice, I am attempting to copy a M9312 rom > hitting COPY from DEVICE it asks for (address/size) what sort of value is > this? > then to RAM (address) what would be a good value for this? > I took a guess or two and got "dev exceeded 98" or "prog pack err 35". > > thanks, > Pavl_ > > On Friday 28 May 2004 02:57 pm, you wrote: > > "29B" is the base programmer, you need to know what > > programming adapter you have. Unipak 2 or 2B is the > > most common but doesn't support some of the older > > parts. > > > > Select codes can be found at http://www.geocities.com/jkh9081/dataIO/ > > or on Data I/O's ftp site > > ftp://ftp.dataio.com/device_lists/_archive/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 3 13:22:35 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: "Ashley Carder" "RE: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 3, 10:20) References: Message-ID: <10406031922.ZM3731@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3, 10:20, Ashley Carder wrote: > I have a DEC RX01 drive and the box of floppies that I have > with it are 8 inch single sided single density. Are 8" hard > sectored floppies compatible with these? No, RX01 (and RX02) are soft-sectored. Soft-sectored disks have one index hole punched near the centre, and an optical sensor detects this once per revolution, indicating the logical start-of-track. Hard-sectored disks have one hole per sector, and the sensor detects these to indicate start-of-sector; the first sector is distinguished because there's an extra hole (the index hole) punched halfway between two sector holes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 3 13:38:29 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Post Mortem Re: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086287908.2338.18.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 16:57, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I did a post mortem on the box and found that two power transistors in the > power supply were the culprits. They literally went out with a bang. My > theory is that the sinewy dust ball I found stuck to their heatsinks > probably caused an arc. Nahh, it's a factory installed comfort blanket, it acts as insulation against the noise of the fan which wakes up the transistors too often. Remove it at your peril. From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 13:49:05 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe SHAUN RIPLEY, from writings of Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:17:41PM -0700: > I started to worry about lead paint problem when > buying an old house. I bought a lead test kit and Why? As long as your child is smart enough not to eat paint flakes or lick the dust, there isn't much to worry about. People have grown up living in houses with lead paint for many years and survived. Lead was taken out of gasoline primarily because some inner city children were senseless enough to eat dirt containing lead particles, etc. All of that overprotectiveness, like required car seats, bicycle helmets, etc. for children is just a way for certain corporations to reap large profits with the help of the government (can you say "successful lobbying and corrupt politicians" boys and girls?). Then some people go looney and install outlet protectors, place child-proof locks on cabinets, etc. Let's see a show of hands: how many of us grew up without outlet protectors and killed ourselves by sticking fingers and tongues into live electrical outlets or went into cabinets under sinks and ate cleaning products? Overprotected as children, they'll expect to continue to be overprotected as adults, which is part of the reason that some of us live in countries that have turned into so-called "nanny states" with seat-belt laws, etc. > tested the paint chips from the windows and fould them > to be positive. Then I tested some computer boards, > and the result was postive too. Have you ever found Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll get more lead exposure from soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it. > white powders near solder on your vintage board? They > are most likely lead dioxide. When you power up your > vintage computers, some lead dust will be blown to the > air and inhaled by your kids... Well, the last Surely not that big a risk to them; they'll get exposed to more dangerous substances and other problems from food; herbicides and pesticides sprayed by you or neighbors; and schoolmates with poor hygiene. You'd be better off worry about those real problems instead, they're bigger problems. > sentence is my pure imagination. Has anybody done any > research on this issue? To be safe, I am going to > throw most of my boards to attic, which are lying on > the floor and accessible to my two year old daughter. So? If she's taught to mind, she won't bother them. You want to teach her not to touch them anyway, since she might damage them with static electricity or otherwise break them. Anyway, you don't want her crawling around in your computer room, electronics lab, etc. and damaging things, do you? Just keep her out of there. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 3 13:44:26 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: RK07 diskheads In-Reply-To: "Jason McBrien" "RE: RK07 diskheads" (Jun 3, 9:08) References: Message-ID: <10406031944.ZM3758@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3, 9:08, Jason McBrien wrote: > Our resident DEC expert says they are, but he can't remember for sure. (He > used to fix them) > > > >From: Ed > > > >Just a quick question, are the heads in an RK07 the same as in an RL02? > >They awfully look the same, so I was just wondering..... That seems unlikely to me, because both RL02 and RK07 are 14" platters, but the RL02 has 512 cylinders and the RK07 has 815. That means the cylinders are closer together on the RK07 (385 tpi instead of 250 tpi, in fact), which implies they are also narrower. The RL02 has embedded (sectored) servo information on every track, the RK07 uses the fourth surface for the servo information. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bpope at wordstock.com Thu Jun 3 13:51:23 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 3, 04 02:49:05 pm Message-ID: <200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> And thusly R. D. Davis spake: > > of that overprotectiveness, like required car seats, bicycle helmets, While I do agree with you on some parts, I feel that bicycle helmets are **VERY** important... A very special friend of mine may have been severely injured or not here right now if she wasn't wearing her bicycle helmet. She flipped over the front of her bike and smacked the helmet on the pavement instead of her head. > etc. for children is just a way for certain corporations to reap large > profits with the help of the government (can you say "successful > lobbying and corrupt politicians" boys and girls?). Then some people > go looney and install outlet protectors, place child-proof locks on > cabinets, etc. > Cheers, Bryan Pope From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 3 14:16:54 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> References: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603150603.048a2ba0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Bryan Pope may have mentioned these words: >And thusly R. D. Davis spake: > > > > of that overprotectiveness, like required car seats, bicycle helmets, > >While I do agree with you on some parts, I feel that bicycle helmets are >**VERY** important... A very special friend of mine may have been severely >injured or not here right now if she wasn't wearing her bicycle helmet. >She flipped over the front of her bike and smacked the helmet on the >pavement instead of her head. And on two separate occasions, my brother would be pushing up daisies right now *had he been wearing his seatbelt*. Yes, sometimes wearing that damn thing can rob you of your constitutional rights, most notably the constitutional right to breathe... I'm not saying "Outlaw bicycle helmets and/or seatbelts." I'm saying "it should be the operators choice." If I want to spread my non-functional graymatter all over the pavement, I could certainly do so in a manner where a helmet/seatbelt would not stop me anyhow...[1] Laterz (and end of thread for me), Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] The state of Michigan (US) is looking at repealing the required motorcycle helmet law, which is good. Would I stop wearing mine? Heck no! The wind frells with my contacts, so I prefer wearing a full-face helmet over 35mph (55km/h) anyway. But at least it'll be my choice... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 14:18:49 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> References: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Bryan Pope, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:51:23PM -0400: > While I do agree with you on some parts, I feel that bicycle helmets are > **VERY** important... A very special friend of mine may have been severely > injured or not here right now if she wasn't wearing her bicycle helmet. > She flipped over the front of her bike and smacked the helmet on the > pavement instead of her head. While such helmets may save some people's lives, although their use may result in some people being croaked in some instances, should not the decision to wear them be up to the individual, not the government? What's next, laws prohibiting children from climbing trees or adults from using power tools or working on electrical/electronic equipment without taking special classes and becoming certified? -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Jun 3 12:04:44 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Wanted: M9312 ROMs (data i/o help needed) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040528163733.00924430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <60817.216.218.236.136.1085709367.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.c om> Message-ID: <200406031704.i53H4jrQ017351@mail.bcpl.net> On 28 May 2004 at 16:37, Joe R. wrote: > (3) I didn't think the 29x programmers could program Bipolar PROMs but > I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong! ftp://ftp.dataio.com/ftp/device_lists/_archive/unipak2b.txt -- Dave From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 12:11:35 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: COSMAC BASIC hex dump References: <1084560606.1943.18.camel@dhcp-250048.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <000f01c4498d$d54b8850$6401a8c0@hal9000> Tom, Did you forget about me or just busy ? If you need my address again I can send it "offline" to you. I will reimburse any shipping costs if you request same. Thanks again in advance. Best regards, Steven Well, I don't want to part with the manual, just offering copies of the hex dump, assuming that usable software for the 1802 was in short supply. The BASIC section is pretty short. The rest of the book is hardware specs for the cards, and is too much to copy. If you want the BASIC section copied I can do that... gimme your mailing address and I'll which whiz it off to you. Tom, I would be happy to pay postage plus some beer money for the manual. I have a "working" COSMAC in my hobby lab. It would be nice to have the manual. I am in So California. If this sounds good I can send you a mailing address "offline" and we can swap info. Thanks a bunch ! Best regards, Steven P.S. You are correct in that it builds anything but character ! I just moved my lab (ugh) and all it's contents (kilopounds), and inevitably paused to look at junk along the way, and found my RCA COSMAC DEVELOPMENT KIT manual. It's got a hex listing (remember those) for a tiny BASIC for the 1802. If it's not already commonly available I'll (postal) mail a copy so's you can have all the true vintage experience of typing in hex dumps then finding the errors. I quite distinctly recall the abominable process of typing in ANIMALS or somesuch nonsense from the SWTP docs way back when. Ugh. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, and no, it did not build character. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Jun 3 12:59:55 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Data I/O device pinout codes In-Reply-To: <04060219462200.00908@localhost.localdomain> References: <200405282157.i4SLv2Js012595@spies.com> Message-ID: <200406031759.i53HxurQ001621@mail.bcpl.net> On 2 Jun 2004 at 19:46, pavl wrote: > Well, some help on use would be nice... Bitsavers has the operating manuals for the 29B and the Unipak adapter: http://www.bitsavers.org/dataIO/981-0200-001_29B_oper.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/dataIO/981-0179-001_UniPak2B_1985.pdf These should describe the copying procedure in detail. > ...I am attempting to copy a M9312 rom hitting COPY from DEVICE it asks > for (address/size) what sort of value is this? The starting ROM address. Pressing START defaults to starting at ROM address zero, i.e., to read the entire ROM. > then to RAM (address) what would be a good value for this? Again, pressing START defaults to copying data into the programmer starting at RAM address zero. > I took a guess or two and got "dev exceeded 98" or "prog pack err 35". The error codes are listed in the above manuals. -- Dave From edward at groenenberg.net Thu Jun 3 13:33:05 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: RK07 diskheads References: Message-ID: <40BF6EE1.B9B97B13@groenenberg.net> Ok, would be nice if they are identical, in that case replacing them in case of problems can have a higher successrate. Did he mention other often occuring problems these drives may expirience? Ed Jason McBrien wrote: > > Our resident DEC expert says they are, but he can't remember for sure. (He > used to fix them) > snip snip -- From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Thu Jun 3 15:03:45 2004 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478065531ED@exchange.olf.com> Never seen this before: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4604&item=4134681929& rd=1 A Rackmountable MAC Classic with a VME Backplane..... Ram (c) 2004 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 3 15:08:33 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <000701c449a6$9e42e740$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:49 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > Quothe SHAUN RIPLEY, from writings of Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:17:41PM -0700: > > I started to worry about lead paint problem when > > buying an old house. I bought a lead test kit and > > Why? As long as your child is smart enough not to eat paint flakes or > lick the dust, there isn't much to worry about. People have grown up > living in houses with lead paint for many years and survived. Lead > was taken out of gasoline primarily because some inner city children > were senseless enough to eat dirt containing lead particles, etc. All > of that overprotectiveness, like required car seats, bicycle helmets, > etc. for children is just a way for certain corporations to reap large > profits with the help of the government (can you say "successful > lobbying and corrupt politicians" boys and girls?). Then some people > go looney and install outlet protectors, place child-proof locks on > cabinets, etc. > > Let's see a show of hands: how many of us grew up without outlet > protectors and killed ourselves by sticking fingers and tongues into > live electrical outlets or went into cabinets under sinks and ate > cleaning products? Overprotected as children, they'll expect to > continue to be overprotected as adults, which is part of the reason > that some of us live in countries that have turned into so-called > "nanny states" with seat-belt laws, etc. > > > tested the paint chips from the windows and fould them > > to be positive. Then I tested some computer boards, > > and the result was postive too. Have you ever found > > Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll get more lead exposure from > soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it. > Pencils? > > white powders near solder on your vintage board? They > > are most likely lead dioxide. When you power up your > > vintage computers, some lead dust will be blown to the > > air and inhaled by your kids... Well, the last > > Surely not that big a risk to them; they'll get exposed to more > dangerous substances and other problems from food; herbicides and > pesticides sprayed by you or neighbors; and schoolmates with poor > hygiene. You'd be better off worry about those real problems instead, > they're bigger problems. > > > sentence is my pure imagination. Has anybody done any > > research on this issue? To be safe, I am going to > > throw most of my boards to attic, which are lying on > > the floor and accessible to my two year old daughter. > > So? If she's taught to mind, she won't bother them. You want to > teach her not to touch them anyway, since she might damage them with > static electricity or otherwise break them. Anyway, you don't want > her crawling around in your computer room, electronics lab, etc. and > damaging things, do you? Just keep her out of there. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 15:08:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040603130600.M89248@newshell.lmi.net> > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't available from 3M! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 3 15:09:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic In-Reply-To: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478065531ED@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > Never seen this before: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4604&item=4134681929& > rd=1 > > A Rackmountable MAC Classic with a VME Backplane..... Wow, how cool is that? But my question is, "why?" -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 3 15:09:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603130600.M89248@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > available from 3M! Stringy floppy? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 3 15:38:13 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jun 3, 4 01:09:25 pm" Message-ID: <200406032038.NAA14832@floodgap.com> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4604&item=4134681929 > > A Rackmountable MAC Classic with a VME Backplane..... > > Wow, how cool is that? > But my question is, "why?" And why is the starting bid such a weird amount ($62.13)? It's pretty neat though ^_^ -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Watch your mouth, kid, or you'll find yourself floating home. -- Han Solo -- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 15:34:38 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040603132928.P89248@newshell.lmi.net> > > > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > > > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > > available from 3M! On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Stringy floppy? I never liked that Exatron device. Imagine a room full of TRS-80s (model I), with students learning Electric Pencil, and yelling for help every time the drive acted up. I don't think that 3M ever made 3.25" (Dysan and Brown) or 3.25" floppies. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 15:52:56 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603132928.P89248@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040603132928.P89248@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040603135205.A89248@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, I wrote: > I don't think that 3M ever made 3.25" (Dysan and Brown) > or 3.25" floppies. CORRECTION: > I don't think that 3M ever made 3.25" (Dysan and Brown) > or 3" floppies. From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 3 15:55:05 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478065531ED@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <001301c449ad$1e67b760$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ram Meenakshisundaram" To: Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 4:03 PM Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic > Never seen this before: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4604&item=4134681929& > rd=1 > > A Rackmountable MAC Classic with a VME Backplane..... > > > Ram > > I wonder if this was used in a kiosk of some sort. The trackball on the right would seem to indicate that. Fibercorp is from Belgium, does 'fiber connectivity" so maybe this Classic had some scientific testing purpose. Darn cool, thanks for the post! bm From jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com Thu Jun 3 16:03:36 2004 From: jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:11 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) Message-ID: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a Professional 380 turned into a VAX console: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5702711003&rd=1 No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type box. Is anybody going to die and go to heaven because one is available? Must.. refrain... fromacquiring... more... stuff... spock, turn off ebay! Jeff From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 16:09:16 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> from "Jeff Davis" at Jun 03, 2004 05:03:36 PM Message-ID: <200406032109.i53L9Gd6012450@onyx.spiritone.com> > Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a Professional 380 > turned into a VAX console: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5702711003&rd=1 > > No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type box. Is > anybody going to die and go to heaven because one is available? > > Must.. refrain... fromacquiring... more... stuff... spock, turn off ebay! If the VAX console is a PC-380, it should be a Pro380. As you say, it's basically a PDP-11/73 (of course minus the Q-Bus, and a little slower). I don't know that Pro380's are that rare. On the down side it seems to be missing the monitor, monitor cable, keyboard (just an LK201), and HD. So the real problem is the lack of monitor and cable unless you already have one. It can probably use one from a DECmate II or III, and a couple other boxes. I think it can take an RD50/51/52 or RD53 for a HD (I always recommend avoiding RD53's). Zane From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 3 16:12:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> Message-ID: <16575.37967.835628.795266@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jeff" == Jeff Davis writes: Jeff> Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a Jeff> Professional 380 turned into a VAX console: Jeff> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5702711003&rd=1 Jeff> No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type Jeff> box. I don't know if it's rare, either. It has essentially nothing in common with an 11/73. It's a 10 MHz J-11 processor, with a bizarre bus it shares with the Pro-350 and Pro-325 (and nothing else). It has its own peripherals that have no relationship to any other PDP11 peripherals. P/OS is the original OS for these -- that's RSX11 hacked up with a primitive GUI. RT11 runs on it, I believe, as do some versions of Unix. RSTS has been modified to run on one, but that version isn't generally available... There's a detailed manual on bitsavers.org. I don't know what makes it a console. Presumably some interface into the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue. paul From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 3 16:16:48 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603132928.P89248@newshell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603171427.048aadc0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > > > > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > > > > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > > > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > > > available from 3M! > >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Stringy floppy? > >[snip] I don't think that 3M ever made 3.25" (Dysan and Brown) >or 3.25" floppies. I don't think they made 2.8" floppies, either. Dunno what else used 'em, but at least one model of Tandy word processor used 'em. And what about 2" floppies - as in the Zenith Minisport?[1] I know Fuji made some, but did 3M kick some in? Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] And yes, I still wanna hook one of those rascals internal to one of my CoCos... ;-) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:02:37 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Wanted: M9312 ROMs (data i/o help needed) In-Reply-To: <200406031704.i53H4jrQ017351@mail.bcpl.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20040528163733.00924430@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <60817.216.218.236.136.1085709367.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.c om> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603170237.008e2250@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:04 PM 6/3/04 -0400, Dave wrote: >On 28 May 2004 at 16:37, Joe R. wrote: > >> (3) I didn't think the 29x programmers could program Bipolar PROMs but >> I'd be happy for someone to prove me wrong! > >ftp://ftp.dataio.com/ftp/device_lists/_archive/unipak2b.txt I'd be happy with a link that worked! :-) Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:09:49 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603130600.M89248@newshell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603170949.008e42c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:08 PM 6/3/04 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >> > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: >> I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > >Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise >me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't >available from 3M! Let's see; IBM, Tektronix, Verbatim, Memorex, Digital, Maxell, Intel, Centech, Radio Shack, Data Systems. That's just some that I have laying around the house. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:11:44 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <000701c449a6$9e42e740$6402a8c0@home> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:08 PM 6/3/04 -0400, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "R. D. Davis" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:49 PM >Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > >> Quothe SHAUN RIPLEY, from writings of Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at >10:17:41PM -0700: >> > I started to worry about lead paint problem when >> > buying an old house. I bought a lead test kit and >> >> Why? As long as your child is smart enough not to eat paint flakes or >> lick the dust, there isn't much to worry about. People have grown up >> living in houses with lead paint for many years and survived. Lead >> was taken out of gasoline primarily because some inner city children >> were senseless enough to eat dirt containing lead particles, etc. All >> of that overprotectiveness, like required car seats, bicycle helmets, >> etc. for children is just a way for certain corporations to reap large >> profits with the help of the government (can you say "successful >> lobbying and corrupt politicians" boys and girls?). Then some people >> go looney and install outlet protectors, place child-proof locks on >> cabinets, etc. >> >> Let's see a show of hands: how many of us grew up without outlet >> protectors and killed ourselves by sticking fingers and tongues into >> live electrical outlets or went into cabinets under sinks and ate >> cleaning products? Overprotected as children, they'll expect to >> continue to be overprotected as adults, which is part of the reason >> that some of us live in countries that have turned into so-called >> "nanny states" with seat-belt laws, etc. >> >> > tested the paint chips from the windows and fould them >> > to be positive. Then I tested some computer boards, >> > and the result was postive too. Have you ever found >> >> Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll get more lead exposure from >> soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it. >> > >Pencils? Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 years or more. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:16:02 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Brian Instruments BRIKON model 723 floppy drive tester/analyzer In-Reply-To: <40BD3C10.C3C7784B@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603171602.00987100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Found my 723 manual today. I've moved the big scanner from an off-line computer to this one today so I have to install the drivers and get it working. Hopefully that will happen in the next day or two. After I get the manual scanned and posted and you have a chance to look at it we can discuss the connectors, etc. Joe At 08:31 PM 6/1/04 -0600, you wrote: >Hello Joe, > >Thanks for your offer to copy the manual. That would >be so helpful! I'm located in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, >near the beautiful Rocky Mountains. > >In the interests of trying to help you with your analog >cable problem, I'll try to describe what my unit has... > >Two ribbon cables come out the back of my unit: > > - A "normal" IBM-PC 34 pin ribbon cable with two > connectors on the end (one that mates with the > connector found on most 3.5 inch drives and one > that mates with the PC-board-edge connector found > on older 5.25 inch drives). > > - A wider 50 pin ribbon that mates with a PC-board-edge > connector. I don't know what kind of drive this > cable is for! > >There are also two male receptacles on the back near >the center of the unit. > > - A 20-pin (2 X 10) connector that looks like it will > mate with my old Apple II 5.25 inch floppy drives. > I have not been brave enough to try it yet! > > - A 40-pin (2 x 20) connector of the same style as the > above 20-pin connector (just longer :-) > >Inside the unit these two connectors are mounted on a small >PC board, which then has a jumper to one of the unit's two >plug-in "cards". This small PC board is fed an unregulated >voltage, and has a linear regulator (+12 volt if I remember >right) mounted on it. Aside from some capacitors, there's >not much more on this board. The board looks more like an >adaptor than anything else. > >Could it be you're missing this little adaptor board? If >so, I can reverse engineer it for you. It wouldn't be the >first time I've created a schematic from a populated PC >board! > >Somewhere around here I have an Apple service manual that gives >the pin-outs for the 20-pin floppy drive connector, though I >would expect you should be able to find that on the web pretty >easily these days. But if you need it, I'll dig it up. > >Finally, there's the leads to supply power to the drives >under test: > > - one lead ends with a connector appropriate for 5.25 inch > drives, and came mated with a short adaptor to fit 3.5 inch > drives > > - the second lead ends with a strange 6 pin (2 rows of 3) > connector that probably fits what ever monster the above > 50 pin ribbon cable was intended to mate with :-) > >Please let me know if I can help. > >My email address (replace the Z with "@" and the X with "."): > > kennjZtelusplanetXnet > >(yeah, I already get enough spam!). > >Take care, > >Kenn > > > >> Kenn, >> >> I have two model 723s and a manual. I don't remember the details of the >> options off the top of my head but I'll try to find the manual and scan it. >> I THINK one of mine has some of the analog options but I don't have the >> cables for them and I don't know the pinouts. Perhaps you can help with >> that. BTW where are you loacted? >> >> Joe > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:20:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: What's the best way to cut a PB book apart for scanning? Millenium Analyzer Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603172055.009893a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I found my Millenium MicroSystem Analyzer manual while searching for the manual for the Brikon 723 FD tester. I thought I'd scan it but it's bound into a paper back book. What's the best way to cut it apart so that I can scan it? My scanner has a feeder and it's th only way to scan something. Joe From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 16:29:12 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <16575.37967.835628.795266@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 03, 2004 05:12:47 PM Message-ID: <200406032129.i53LTC61013180@onyx.spiritone.com> > I don't know what makes it a console. Presumably some interface into > the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue. Two things, one is the interface board (which ISTR can be hacked for other more interesting uses), and the second is the VAX Console software. Zane From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Thu Jun 3 15:45:37 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org><200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <017e01c449b2$30167140$bb72fea9@geoff> Being "certified" has another meaning this side of the pond, but thinking of it , it may well apply to all who indulge in the passions of this forum . :^) Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 8:18 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > What's next, laws prohibiting children from climbing trees or adults > from using power tools or working on electrical/electronic equipment > without taking special classes and becoming certified? > > -- > Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 3 16:50:53 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002001c449b4$d82dd600$de291941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 5:11 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught > onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 years > or more. > > Joe Next thing you will tell me is that there is no DOG in a hotdog. :) From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 16:52:05 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <20114818.1086299526182.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> you forgot Wabash and Elephant disks... at least I have those laying around the house... best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Joe R." Sent: Jun 3, 2004 5:09 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: 8" hard sectored floppies At 01:08 PM 6/3/04 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >> > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: >> I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > >Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise >me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't >available from 3M! Let's see; IBM, Tektronix, Verbatim, Memorex, Digital, Maxell, Intel, Centech, Radio Shack, Data Systems. That's just some that I have laying around the house. Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 16:20:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: RK07 diskheads In-Reply-To: <40BE4E35.9CFCE980@groenenberg.net> from "Ed" at Jun 3, 4 00:01:25 am Message-ID: > Just a quick question, are the heads in an RK07 the same as in an RL02? > They awfully look the same, so I was just wondering..... I am almost certain they are not the same! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 16:25:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Nascom 2 cooling fan(s)?? In-Reply-To: <1086259708.16730.26.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 3, 4 10:48:28 am Message-ID: > Interesting. I've got one 4118 on the main CPU board of mine, plugged in I seem to remember you can strap those sockets officially for 4118 RAM or EPROMs, and it's not hard to put 6116s there either. Do you have the manuals/schematics? > right next to the TV modulator (plus a second 4118 elsewhere for the > video RAM). > > Then there's 16 sockets for DRAM on the memory board, but mine's only > populated with 8 4116 chips. The memory board also has 4 larger sockets > on it though, one of which has an EPROM fitted. Wonder what the contents YEs, it's a combined RAM and EPROM board. > are, as I assume it's a user-addition rather than it being something > required for the machine to operate... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 3 16:29:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software In-Reply-To: <20040603110541.GA6720@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 3, 4 11:05:41 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jun 02, 2004 at 10:10:07PM -0600, kenn Jorgensen wrote: > > The format on disc is LIF, HP's standard floppy disc format > > back before MSDOS and FAT formatted floppies dominated the > > world :-) Ordinary 1.44MB IBM formatted 2HD floppies work > > just fine as target discs. > > Is it possible to backup LIF disks with non-HP hardware? Most definitely (and this gets round any protection on the files on the HP disks). I routinely archive and copy HP calculator floppy disks (630K LIF format, from a 9114 drive) on my linux PC. Others have modified the software to handle the 1.44M-ish LIF disks. I would assume Teledisk could handle them, but I don't use that program (in fact I rarely run MS-DOS, and don't have Windows...). The 630K format is 77 cylinders, 2 sides, 16 sectors/track, 256 bytes/sector One thing to watch out for is that HP have a bad-block-replacement and media-use table at the start of cylnder 79 (cylinders 77 and 78 are totally blank). Normally this doesn't matter -- if you format the disk on an HP machine it'll write the right stuff there, and then just dump cylinders 0-76 from the PC. But if either the original or new disk have bad blocks on them you will have problems. This has never caught me, so I don't worry about it. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 3 16:52:16 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <002001c449b4$d82dd600$de291941@game> Message-ID: <40BF9D90.1080902@jetnet.ab.ca> Teo Zenios wrote: >> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught >> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 So what was the REAL LEAD pencils used to write on?> >Next thing you will tell me is that there is no DOG in a hotdog. :) I am still looking for the HAM in a Hamburger. Ben. From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 3 17:03:57 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: paper tape replacement In-Reply-To: <016301c44983$d01fb9a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <016301c44983$d01fb9a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <1086300237.2325.35.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 08:59, Jay West wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=11805&item=3818543149&rd=1 > > Thought some folks might be interested. Yeah, those are for NC machines, Numerically Controlled machine tools, table X Y and tool bit Z axis machine controlled for repetitive parts fabrication. From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 3 17:11:06 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1086300665.2338.43.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 10:39, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > density that is related to the position of the index hole. My > understanding is that unlike the 5-1/4 disks, the 8 in. media > is the same for the single and double density, just higher > quality. In fact, I punch a new index window in some of my > double density 8 inch floppies and I've been using them, with > no troubles, as single density. In the day quality and specs were such that it was foolish to use the wrong media. Today you can pull that stuff. Using DD as SD should be OK, but the converse will work "most" of the time, which is useless unless you're just playing. We used to pay $80 for a box of DSDD Dysan 8" floppies and align the disk drives every year with a Dysan alignment diskette and an oscilloscope. That's what it took for repeatable reliability. It sucked. Process control is down pat these days. You can safely assume the cheapest 5% tolerance resistors are very close to 1%; I assume Yaseo makes only one kind of resistor ("1%") and the nifty machine sorts based upon tolerance or the desired fraction of production is diverted for 1% labelling or somesuch. It'd be hard to believe other things with graded performance aren't handled the same way (not that you can buy "single density" media any more!) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 17:18:32 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: HP 4952A Software In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603083518.009283b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> <40BEA49F.8948DC91@telusplanet.net> <3.0.6.32.20040603083518.009283b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040603150740.R95145@newshell.lmi.net> > >Is it possible to backup LIF disks with non-HP hardware? On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > Yes, you can use the LIF Utiles (released to public domain and posted on > the net) to read the disks and translate the files into a MS-DOS fromat. Or > MS-DOS's DiskCopy may be able to make a straight copy of the disk even > though it's not in a MS-DOS format. If DiskCopy doesn't work then TeleDisk > certainly should. They can definitely be backed up using PC hardware, subject to WHICH of the LIF formats they are. DISKCOPY will absolutely NOT work, because: 1) DISKCOPY looks in the boot sector and/or first byte of the FAT to determine which one of several MS-DOS formats is being copied, and can therefore NOT copy non-MS-DOS diskettes properly. For the same reason, DEBUG and early versions of the Norton fUtilities can not handle alien diskettes. 2) most LIF formats, AFAIK, are 256 bytes per sector, which DOS utilities intended for handling DOS diskettes will choke on. LIF is NOT one of the currently supported formats in XenoCopy. But Teledisk should handle it CopyII-PC should handle it XenoCopy can duplicate them (NOT transfer files), if you lie to it about what format the alien diskettes are. TRAKCESS, or almost any other utilities on TRS-80 model III can copy them. Various utilities on Coco can copy them. Oswego Systems made some doftware for doing LIF formats. I've never used the "LIF Utilities", but that CERTAINLY should work. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 17:18:19 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <002001c449b4$d82dd600$de291941@game> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:50 PM 6/3/04 -0400, you wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 5:11 PM >Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > >> >> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught >> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 >years >> or more. >> >> Joe > > >Next thing you will tell me is that there is no DOG in a hotdog. :) Believe me, you don't want to know what's in hotdogs :-/ Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 17:19:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20114818.1086299526182.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlin k.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603181932.008549e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've never seen any Wabash or Elephant 8" disks. Joe At 05:52 PM 6/3/04 -0400, you wrote: >you forgot Wabash and Elephant disks... at least I have those laying around the house... > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Joe R." >Sent: Jun 3, 2004 5:09 PM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: Re: 8" hard sectored floppies > >At 01:08 PM 6/3/04 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >>> > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. >> >>On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: >>> I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! >> >>Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise >>me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't >>available from 3M! > > Let's see; IBM, Tektronix, Verbatim, Memorex, Digital, Maxell, Intel, >Centech, Radio Shack, Data Systems. That's just some that I have laying >around the house. > > Joe > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 17:20:27 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <40BF9D90.1080902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <002001c449b4$d82dd600$de291941@game> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603182027.008a77f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:52 PM 6/3/04 -0600, you wrote: >Teo Zenios wrote: > >>> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught >>> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 > >So what was the REAL LEAD pencils used to write on?> I don't know. Do I look that old? :-) Joe > > >>Next thing you will tell me is that there is no DOG in a hotdog. :) >I am still looking for the HAM in a Hamburger. >Ben. > > > > > > From tomj at wps.com Thu Jun 3 17:13:04 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603132042.04cc86f0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603132042.04cc86f0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <1086300783.2338.46.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 10:25, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. > > Ah, never say never, my friend! ;-) I believe the ubiquituous NEC 765 (et al) does its "index" on read by scanning for the 0th sector ID (which is 1 :-) The index hole is only needed for formatting, and that only for compatiblity. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 17:26:58 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040603152429.T95145@newshell.lmi.net> > > to avoid waste water from the computer room contaminating the > > mouse rooms below. > > What's a mouse room? The area under raised floors can provide a very comfortable and convenient habitat for rodents. They are hard to drown. Perhaps Der Mouse would know for sure? From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 17:37:57 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040603223757.GE18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Joe R., from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:18:19PM -0400: > Believe me, you don't want to know what's in hotdogs :-/ Roadkill, anything scraped off the floor in slaughterhouses, pigs snouts, chicken beaks, pigs and cows ears, brains, lungs, genitals, etc., right? -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 17:39:44 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040603223944.GF18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Joe R., from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:18:19PM -0400: > Believe me, you don't want to know what's in hotdogs :-/ ...and, in vegetarian hot-dogs, rumor has it that they contain all of the moldy vegetables and parts of vegetables that would normally be discarded, etc. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 17:45:58 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <20040603152429.T95145@newshell.lmi.net> References: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20040603152429.T95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040603224558.GG18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Fred Cisin, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 03:26:58PM -0700: > > What's a mouse room? > > The area under raised floors can provide a very comfortable > and convenient habitat for rodents. They are hard to drown. Those raised floors are very convenient for reptiles and spiders as well, not to mention mold, mildew and small beings with sharp claws and fangs, that few people believe exist, who come up from below the tiles and try to eat people when the lights go off during a power-failure at night. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 17:40:35 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <1086300783.2338.46.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603132042.04cc86f0@mail.30below.com> <1086300783.2338.46.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20040603152954.W95145@newshell.lmi.net> > > >Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > > Ah, never say never, my friend! ;-) > I believe the ubiquituous NEC 765 (et al) does its "index" on read by > scanning for the 0th sector ID (which is 1 :-) The index hole is only > needed for formatting, and that only for compatiblity. Unfortunately, the 765 does a "reset" of the chip whenever it sees the index. It can handle NOT having an index hole (AFTER formatting), but excess holes will keep it from working. Apple (and Commodore and Atari 400 series?) did not HAVE an index sensor, therefore, they could use diskettes that were intended to be hard or soft sectored, and could do flippy diskettes if the write-protect were circumvented. OB_stupid-project: I once modified a 5.25" drive to index on the hub, instead of the photocell. Then I didn't need to punch the jacket for doing "flippy" diskettes on single sided formats. It also meant that I could flip over a hard-sectored diskette and format it. That made a diskette that could be used and its contents copied to a "normal" diskette with COPY or DISKCOPY, but COPYII-PC (including OPTION BOARD) would choke on trying to copy it. But,... the Teac 55 series drives wouldn't work with it, since they rely on seeing an index hole within a reasonable time period to beleive that the drive is "ready". From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 17:42:01 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: OT: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040603223757.GE18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040603223757.GE18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20040603154104.A95145@newshell.lmi.net> > > Believe me, you don't want to know what's in hotdogs :-/ > > Roadkill, anything scraped off the floor in slaughterhouses, pigs > snouts, chicken beaks, pigs and cows ears, brains, lungs, genitals, > etc., right? ... and sometimes they add grosser stuff in. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 3 17:43:04 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> Message-ID: <200406031743.04038.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 03 June 2004 16:03, Jeff Davis wrote: > Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a Professional > 380 turned into a VAX console: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5702 >711003&rd=1 > > No idea if these are rare, iirc it's basically a pdp-11/73 type box. > Is anybody going to die and go to heaven because one is available? > > Must.. refrain... fromacquiring... more... stuff... spock, turn off > ebay! I see them on ebay once every few weeks it seems. Not all that rare. In fact, this same seller has sold a few on ebay in the past. It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably lacks the VAX console software as well then. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at spies.com Thu Jun 3 17:47:03 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: What's the best way to cut a PB book apart for scanning? Message-ID: <200406032247.i53Ml3TB020096@spies.com> I found my Millenium MicroSystem Analyzer manual while searching for the manual for the Brikon 723 FD tester. I thought I'd scan it but it's bound into a paper back book. What's the best way to cut it apart so that I can scan it? My scanner has a feeder and it's th only way to scan something. -- If the glue has dried out, just break the binding and peel the pages apart. clean the hardened glue off the edge before feeding through the scanner. Alternatively, go to a print shop and have them cut the binding with a paper shear, making sure the spine of the book is flat. From acme at gbronline.com Thu Jun 3 17:51:59 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com><20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org><3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><002001c449b4$d82dd600$de291941@game> <3.0.6.32.20040603182027.008a77f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <041d01c449bd$61b64bc0$8e4f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." > >So what was the REAL LEAD pencils used to write on?> > > I don't know. Do I look that old? :-) > > Joe Yes, Joe. In addition to VWs, there were *no* graphite pencils when you were a kid. Glen 0/0 From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 17:49:35 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Unibus DEC board FS In-Reply-To: <40BF1DFD.70F5BCEE@brothom.nl> References: <40BF1DFD.70F5BCEE@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <20040603224935.GA21004@bos7.spole.gov> > Norm and Beth Anheier wrote: > > > > M9313- unibus exerciser & terminator How much? I think I need a new one for my DWBUA - I think my DWBUA and cables are OK, but if the UET isn't functional, the DWBUA itself won't pass self-test. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Jun-2004 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -97.3 F (-71.9 C) Windchill -127.8 F (-88.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.2 kts Grid 110 Barometer 661.2 mb (11343. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 3 17:53:50 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603132928.P89248@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > > > > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > > > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > > > available from 3M! > > On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Stringy floppy? > > I never liked that Exatron device. > Imagine a room full of TRS-80s (model I), with students learning > Electric Pencil, and yelling for help every time the drive acted > up. > > > I don't think that 3M ever made 3.25" (Dysan and Brown) > or 3.25" floppies. Well, I certainly find no reference to that size in their Diskette Reference Manual - nor to 3.0" either. - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 18:00:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406032300.QAA28766@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >> > >Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >> > Ah, never say never, my friend! ;-) >> I believe the ubiquituous NEC 765 (et al) does its "index" on read by >> scanning for the 0th sector ID (which is 1 :-) The index hole is only >> needed for formatting, and that only for compatiblity. > >Unfortunately, the 765 does a "reset" of the chip whenever it sees the >index. It can handle NOT having an index hole (AFTER formatting), >but excess holes will keep it from working. ---snip--- Hi Fred When I first got my first PC, I didn't have anything but hard sectored disk that I'd used on my H89. I made a foil disk that I put in with the disk to get around this problem for formatting. It had a large hole that most of the time only exposed one index hole. Placing it in the drive was tricky but with access to the top of the drive I made it work. Of course, I later bought a box of 360K disk but this trick did get me started. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 3 18:02:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603170949.008e42c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > At 01:08 PM 6/3/04 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: > >> > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > > > >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > >> I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > > >Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > >me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > >available from 3M! > > Let's see; IBM, Tektronix, Verbatim, Memorex, Digital, Maxell, Intel, > Centech, Radio Shack, Data Systems. That's just some that I have laying > around the house. I doubt Digital, Intel and Tektronix made their own floppies. They're just branded with their stickers. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 3 18:04:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20114818.1086299526182.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > you forgot Wabash and Elephant disks... at least I have those laying > around the house... The first two floppies I ever owned were Dysan brand. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 18:10:37 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <200406032300.QAA28766@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406032300.QAA28766@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040603160817.U95145@newshell.lmi.net> > >Unfortunately, the 765 does a "reset" of the chip whenever it sees the > >index. It can handle NOT having an index hole (AFTER formatting), > >but excess holes will keep it from working. On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi Fred > When I first got my first PC, I didn't have anything > but hard sectored disk that I'd used on my H89. I made > a foil disk that I put in with the disk to get around this > problem for formatting. It had a large hole that most > of the time only exposed one index hole. Placing it > in the drive was tricky but with access to the top of the > drive I made it work. > Of course, I later bought a box of 360K disk but this > trick did get me started. > Dwight If you just use that for FORMATing, you could then disable the index for all subsequent access, either by putting opaque tape over the hole in the diskette jacket (won't work with some TEAC drives), or interrupting that wire in the cable. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 18:10:10 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406032109.i53L9Gd6012450@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> <200406032109.i53L9Gd6012450@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20040603231010.GA22452@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:09:16PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Hey, saw this PC-380-AA on ebay, which I believe is a Professional 380 > > turned into a VAX console: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1479&item=5702711003&rd=1 Yep. > I think it can take an RD50/51/52 or RD53 for a HD (I always recommend avoiding RD53's). Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 03-Jun-2004 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -97.5 F (-72.0 C) Windchill -137.3 F (-94.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.80 kts Grid 069 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 18:13:43 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040603161125.D95145@newshell.lmi.net> > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > > available from 3M! > > Let's see; IBM, Tektronix, Verbatim, Memorex, Digital, Maxell, Intel, > Centech, Radio Shack, Data Systems. That's just some that I have laying > around the house. I meant some TYPES of media, not some BRANDS. such as 3" and 3.25", which 3M apparently did NOT make any of -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 3 18:17:27 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040603223757.GE18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <20040603154104.A95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <002601c449c0$efac4710$de291941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 6:42 PM Subject: OT: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > > Believe me, you don't want to know what's in hotdogs :-/ > > > > Roadkill, anything scraped off the floor in slaughterhouses, pigs > > snouts, chicken beaks, pigs and cows ears, brains, lungs, genitals, > > etc., right? > > ... and sometimes they add grosser stuff in. > > > > Actually I think the Hotdog meat of today is alot better then what it used to be. Most of the crappy stuff goes into cheap dog food these days. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 18:21:09 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406032321.QAA28784@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Fred Cisin" > >> >Unfortunately, the 765 does a "reset" of the chip whenever it sees the >> >index. It can handle NOT having an index hole (AFTER formatting), >> >but excess holes will keep it from working. > >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> Hi Fred >> When I first got my first PC, I didn't have anything >> but hard sectored disk that I'd used on my H89. I made >> a foil disk that I put in with the disk to get around this >> problem for formatting. It had a large hole that most >> of the time only exposed one index hole. Placing it >> in the drive was tricky but with access to the top of the >> drive I made it work. >> Of course, I later bought a box of 360K disk but this >> trick did get me started. >> Dwight > >If you just use that for FORMATing, you could then disable the index for >all subsequent access, either by putting opaque tape over the hole in the >diskette jacket (won't work with some TEAC drives), or interrupting that >wire in the cable. Hi Fred I don't recall what drive it had but I just left the hole completely open after formatting and it worked fine for read/write. I don't believe anything cared how often there were holes, after formatting. As I recall, reading disk controller specs, there was an error that could happen if a sector wasn't found within so many revolutions. I don't think my machine used this feature. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 3 18:18:38 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: Fred Cisin "Re: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 3, 13:34) References: <20040603132928.P89248@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10406040018.ZM4182@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3, 13:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't think that 3M ever made 3.25" (Dysan and Brown) > or 3.25" floppies. Nor 2.5" (TDK and Sony) or Zip disks (Iomega and Fujitsu), as far as I know. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ohh at drizzle.com Thu Jun 3 18:24:19 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:12 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: R. D. Davis quotes Shaun Ripley's question, and responds (in part) thus: > > I started to worry about lead paint problem when > > buying an old house. I bought a lead test kit and > > Why? As long as your child is smart enough not to eat paint flakes or > lick the dust, there isn't much to worry about. People have grown up > living in houses with lead paint for many years and survived. [...] Well, the kid's only two - and therefore probably _would_ be willing to eat the stuff. Intelligence is one thing; experience of the world is another. :) In any event, lead as a contaminant can also be transmitted by breathing dust, so eating computer boards may not be the main potential problem. I agree that the kid could accumulate a good quantity of lead and survive, but survival isn't necessarily the issue here: the brain and nervous system are still developing at that age, and thus have added susceptibility to damage from small amounts of lead poisoning - which they would _survive_, almost certainly, but developmental damage at that age could lead to diminished capacity and therefore a predisposition to voting for those mandatory can-opener safety laws and such which were discussed with such passion earlier on. :) So, though it's unlikely to actually be life-threatening, I don't think the concern over the lead is at all misplaced. > > tested the paint chips from the windows and fould them > > to be positive. Then I tested some computer boards, > > and the result was postive too. Have you ever found > > Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll get more lead exposure from > soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it. I suspect most two-year-olds don't do that much soldering. :) But the advice about not panicking is certainly very sound. > > [...] Has anybody done any > > research on this issue? To be safe, I am going to > > throw most of my boards to attic, which are lying on > > the floor and accessible to my two year old daughter. Lead or no lead, this is a smart idea. Mr. Davis is quite correct in noting that two-year-olds and printed-circuit boards are just not the ideal combination. (In the same vein I might suggest not allowing two-year-olds to use lathes, screw guns, pottery or glassblowing equipment.) In worrying about lead contaminants, however, I suspect vintage computers will be nowhere _near_ the hazard level for your kid as the paint could potentially be. The best advice there seems to be: get rid of the dust, keep things clean, get rid of the dust, seal off the painted areas with a non-lead-based paint, and get rid of the dust. Some slightly smarter and more detailed advice can be had from the EPA: http://www.epa.gov/lead/leadinfo.htm#protect That's my free advice, for whatever the hell it's worth. I am not a parent, nor do I play one on TV. -O.- ...though I _have_ raised two very intelligent dogs. :) :) From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 18:33:37 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406031743.04038.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jun 03, 2004 05:43:04 PM Message-ID: <200406032333.i53NXbrD017492@onyx.spiritone.com> > It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably lacks > the VAX console software as well then. > > Pat Are you actually needing the VAX console software? From what I've seen it's not good for anything other than being a VAX Console. A Pro380 would be much more interesting with P/OS, RT-11, or even Unix. Zane From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 3 18:44:57 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <40BF9D90.1080902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, ben franchuk wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: > > >> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught > >> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 > > So what was the REAL LEAD pencils used to write on?> > > > >Next thing you will tell me is that there is no DOG in a hotdog. :) > I am still looking for the HAM in a Hamburger. > Ben. ...and what part of a horse goes into Horse Radish? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 3 18:47:25 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: Fred Cisin "Re: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 3, 13:08) References: <20040603130600.M89248@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <10406040047.ZM4200@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3, 13:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > available from 3M! The original IBM hard-sectored 8" floppies had 8 sectors, and I don't think 3M ever made those :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 3 18:48:46 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 3, 10:39) References: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10406040048.ZM4203@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3, 10:39, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > There is a difference between single and double > density that is related to the position of the index hole. Are you thinking of the different position of the index hole in 8" disks? That differentiates single-sided from double-sided, not densities. > My > understanding is that unlike the 5-1/4 disks, the 8 in. media > is the same for the single and double density, just higher > quality. In fact, I punch a new index window in some of my > double density 8 inch floppies and I've been using them, with > no troubles, as single density. > The 5-1/4 disk are a different story. Single/Double don't mix. Sure they do. Same coercivity. There might be a difference in quality on early ones, but barring flaws in the emulsion coating, they're interchangeable, and you can always use DD as SD. It's single/double density and high density that are different. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rachael at rachael.dyndns.org Thu Jun 3 19:46:41 2004 From: rachael at rachael.dyndns.org (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: mailserver delays Message-ID: <338.651T2050T1063626rachael@rachael.dyndns.org> As it seems my mail server has been having some problems, I`m very sorry that my replys have been delayed so many days. for some unknown reason my replyes had been frozen in exim. with delayed regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: rachael@rachael.dyndns.org url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 3 18:59:50 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406032359.QAA28815@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Jun 3, 10:39, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> There is a difference between single and double >> density that is related to the position of the index hole. > >Are you thinking of the different position of the index hole in 8" >disks? That differentiates single-sided from double-sided, not >densities. Yep, that is it. Dwight > >> My >> understanding is that unlike the 5-1/4 disks, the 8 in. media >> is the same for the single and double density, just higher >> quality. In fact, I punch a new index window in some of my >> double density 8 inch floppies and I've been using them, with >> no troubles, as single density. >> The 5-1/4 disk are a different story. Single/Double don't mix. > >Sure they do. Same coercivity. There might be a difference in quality >on early ones, but barring flaws in the emulsion coating, they're >interchangeable, and you can always use DD as SD. > >It's single/double density and high density that are different. > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 19:03:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> Message-ID: <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, wrote: > just to keep terminology correct... the 8" inch came as single > or double density - high density entered the marketplace with > the introduction of the IBM AT in 1985 that had 5 1/4" high density > disk drives. > Maybe internationally things were referred to as low and high > density, but not to my recollection in the States or in any drive > datasheets I have seen. Most of that "terminology" was actually marketing HYPE. "Single Density" never existed until AFTER "Double Density"! (Likewise, if you search old newspaper databases, you will find that there was NOTHING called "World War I" until AFTER discussion started about "World War II", and there was no such thing as a "TRS-80 Model I" (it was simply called "TRS-80") until the model II and III were started.) Instead, we had "FM" ("Frequency Modulated") encoding. Then MFM ("Modified Frequency Modulation") was developed. The MARKETING people (a group of mindless jerks who'll be first against the wall when the revolution comes!) came up with the apellation of "DD/"DOUBLE DENSITY". THEN they had to differentiate the "old" system, so they renamed that "SD"/"SINGLE DENSITY". Some data communication engineers would argue that "Single Density" is WRONG, since it is really "HALF density", with one bit of data for every two flux transitions. And "Double Density" is really only about 3/4 density. Then, for DSDD (double sided, double density), SOME mindless jerk marketing people (such as at Superbrain/Intertec) who didn't have a clue about the difference between capacity and density, decided to call that "QD"/"Quad Density" When number of tracks was doubled, the mindless jerk marketing people called that "QD"/"Quad Density". Except for the mindless jerk marketing people at Superbrain/Intertec; they had already used up the name "QD"/"Quad Density", so they needed a bigger superlative, and called it "SD"/"Super Density"! The mere concept that "SD" already meant "Single Density" was lost on newcomers who don't acknowledge anything that happened before THEY got into it (like the MICROS~1 mindless jerks who don't understand that a "COM file" is a memory image executable program)) But, then, when density was finally increased, "quad density" and "super density" were already used up as names, so the mindless jerks called it "HD"/"High Density". "HD"/"High Density" is MFM at 500K bits per second data transfer rate on a 360 RPM drive. (Which is exactly what 8" DD was) "Low density" has NEVER been used as a name - what marketing person would saddle their system with THAT?? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 3 19:11:26 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406032333.i53NXbrD017492@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200406032333.i53NXbrD017492@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200406031911.26500.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 03 June 2004 18:33, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably > > lacks the VAX console software as well then. > > > > Pat > > Are you actually needing the VAX console software? From what I've > seen it's not good for anything other than being a VAX Console. A > Pro380 would be much more interesting with P/OS, RT-11, or even Unix. No, but I'm willing to bet someone's VAX 8800 is! P/OS is kinda interesting, but not horribly interesting. RT-11 or Venix/2.11BSD would be more interesting to play with. Of course, the CTI bus limits what you can really do with it vs. a QBUS/UNIBUS machine. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 19:36:58 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406031911.26500.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jun 03, 2004 07:11:26 PM Message-ID: <200406040036.i540awhh019093@onyx.spiritone.com> > No, but I'm willing to bet someone's VAX 8800 is! I'm guessing that most people with have a VAX that needs one of these consoles actually have one. Mine came from a scrapper, and he'd already gutted the VAX. > P/OS is kinda > interesting, but not horribly interesting. RT-11 or Venix/2.11BSD > would be more interesting to play with. Of course, the CTI bus limits > what you can really do with it vs. a QBUS/UNIBUS machine. On a Pro380 the OS that I'd find the most interesting would be P/OS for the simple fact it only runs there :^) Venix falls into the same catagory, but I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC HW. Zane From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 3 19:47:47 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: OT: bad puns and jokes References: Message-ID: <40BFC6B3.4050207@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Maslin wrote: > ...and what part of a horse goes into Horse Radish? The fertilizer part of course. Ha-Ha. Ben. From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 20:03:05 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <002601c449c0$efac4710$de291941@game> References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com> <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040603223757.GE18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <20040603154104.A95145@newshell.lmi.net> <002601c449c0$efac4710$de291941@game> Message-ID: <20040604010305.GC19578@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Teo Zenios, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 07:17:27PM -0400: > > > Roadkill, anything scraped off the floor in slaughterhouses, pigs > > > snouts, chicken beaks, pigs and cows ears, brains, lungs, genitals, > > > etc., right? > > > > ... and sometimes they add grosser stuff in. > Actually I think the Hotdog meat of today is alot better then what it used > to be. Most of the crappy stuff goes into cheap dog food these days. ...but isn't it still recycled into hot dogs when the remains of the dogs get collected from dog pounds, etc. by same the rendering companies that collect roadkill and sell the rendered product to the hot dog companies? Gee, I thought that everyone knew about that. ;-) -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 3 20:18:00 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <1086300665.2338.43.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> References: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> <1086300665.2338.43.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > In the day quality and specs were such that it was foolish to use the > wrong media. Today you can pull that stuff. Using DD as SD should be OK, > but the converse will work "most" of the time, which is useless unless > you're just playing. There used to be a popular folk myth that all single sided diskettes actually double sided ones that had failed testing on one side. I find it hard to believe that any company could be profitable with THAT high a failure rate! > We used to pay $80 for a box of DSDD Dysan 8" floppies and align the > disk drives every year with a Dysan alignment diskette and an > oscilloscope. That's what it took for repeatable reliability. It sucked. ... and yet nobody was buying 8" Dysan alignment diskettes and new shrinkwrapped Dysan floppies at $1 per diskette at VCF! My biggest market segment was teachers who each wanted ONE diskette to wave in the air when talking to classes about the days of dinosaurs. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 3 20:18:33 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406040036.i540awhh019093@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200406040036.i540awhh019093@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200406032018.33663.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 03 June 2004 19:36, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Venix falls into the same > catagory, but I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC > HW. Shh! Don't let Michael Sokolov hear you! Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;) Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but that's not real Unix (or on-topic by age). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From chd_1 at nktelco.net Thu Jun 3 20:21:56 2004 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H. Dickman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406032129.i53LTC61013180@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200406032129.i53LTC61013180@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <40BFCEB4.3020301@nktelco.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I don't know what makes it a console. Presumably some interface into >>the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue. >> >> > >Two things, one is the interface board (which ISTR can be hacked for other >more interesting uses), and the second is the VAX Console software. > > Zane > > I have one of these. The VAX Console interface is kind of interesting. It is called the Real Time Interface, option PC3XX-AA, and includes two RS-232 ports, a number of discrete I/O lines, and an IEEE-488 bus. The VAX was attached to a 62-pin D-shell connector, according to a scan I have http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp11/Pro380_RTI.pdf Looks like it would have been perfect for use in a lab for driving test equipment. The technical manuals are on bitsavers. I don't think the RTI is documented there though. Look at http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm for the VAX 8500 maintenance manual. I think the RTI registers are documented there. I looked this all up one time because I was going to connect my PRO380 to an IEEE-488 oscilloscope. I have not gotten to it yet. You really need the keyboard and display to make it work. A terminal can be connected to the printer port and used with ODT, but that is about it, at least with P/OS, I am not sure about RT-11. The monochrome video is NTSC, so a simple TV monitor will work. I had to dig out an old TRS-80 Model I display to make it work. -chuck From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 20:38:35 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040604013835.GE19578@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 04:32:07AM +0100: Quothe someone else: > > than go through the nonsense of replacing the fan. That is not nonsense, it's called repairing something properly. A perfectly proper repair would be to repair the fan itself if it can be repaired. > If you once replaced the fan with a decent one, it would carry on working > for 5 years or more. Every few months I oil the fan in one of my PCs; that keeps it working and quiet. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 3 20:38:07 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603051741.6696.qmail@web51803.mail.yahoo.com><20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org><3.0.6.32.20040603171144.008ed9f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20040603181819.01ef2630@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><20040603223757.GE18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org><20040603154104.A95145@newshell.lmi.net> <002601c449c0$efac4710$de291941@game> Message-ID: <003c01c449d4$a838b6c0$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 6:42 PM > Subject: OT: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > > > > > Believe me, you don't want to know what's in hotdogs :-/ > > > > > > Roadkill, anything scraped off the floor in slaughterhouses, pigs > > > snouts, chicken beaks, pigs and cows ears, brains, lungs, genitals, > > > etc., right? > > > > ... and sometimes they add grosser stuff in. > > > > > > > > > > Actually I think the Hotdog meat of today is alot better then what it used > to be. Most of the crappy stuff goes into cheap dog food these days. > well, McDonalds gets some of it. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 3 20:43:42 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> <200406032109.i53L9Gd6012450@onyx.spiritone.com> <20040603231010.GA22452@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16575.54222.397000.871943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: >> I think it can take an RD50/51/52 or RD53 for a HD (I always >> recommend avoiding RD53's). Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS. There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and RD51. Be careful... paul From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 3 20:46:47 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org><200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 3:18 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > Quothe Bryan Pope, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 02:51:23PM -0400: > > While I do agree with you on some parts, I feel that bicycle helmets are > > **VERY** important... A very special friend of mine may have been severely > > injured or not here right now if she wasn't wearing her bicycle helmet. > > She flipped over the front of her bike and smacked the helmet on the > > pavement instead of her head. > > While such helmets may save some people's lives, although their use > may result in some people being croaked in some instances, should not > the decision to wear them be up to the individual, not the government? > What's next, laws prohibiting children from climbing trees or adults > from using power tools or working on electrical/electronic equipment > without taking special classes and becoming certified? Depends on who is paying the hospital bills. If it's the state, as in Canadian taxes, then I'm for helmets and belts. (Belts are now enforced in all 50 states aren't they?) There used to be a campaign here, started by a doctor who saw too many 'stupid' injuries in young people. Simply said, the campaign asks where you draw your stupid line. Rehabs and wheelchairs are full of people who might redraw their line if they had a second chance. But I think in the States, if you fall off your bike and crack your own skull you can sue the pavement people for making it too hard. That makes more sense than forcing people to wear helmets and do up seatbelts. Absolutely no one should be able to force common sense on us. > Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 20:49:23 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406032018.33663.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jun 03, 2004 08:18:33 PM Message-ID: <200406040149.i541nNU2020580@onyx.spiritone.com> > > catagory, but I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC > > HW. > > Shh! Don't let Michael Sokolov hear you! Why not, Unix is boring compared to the other OS's that you can run on DEC HW, and I suspect most people know I feel that way :^) > Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at > some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;) I've considered running Unix on a PDP-11, but have never gotten around to it. Last time I tried to get 2.11BSD up and running it didn't like my Viking disk controller, though that bug has since been fixed. > Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but that's not real > Unix (or on-topic by age). Actually unless I'm mistaken Linux on Alpha's is now ontopic, or if it isn't, it is sure getting close. Linux itself has been ontopic for almost three years. Alphas also do quite well at running BSD, I ran OpenBSD on one of mine for a few years. Though I've now downgraded that system to a Sparc 5/110. I really hate to see systems that can run VMS wasted running Unix. Zane From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 3 20:53:14 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603181932.008549e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20114818.1086299526182.JavaMail.root@huey.psp.pas.earthlin k.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040603185140.02f51410@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 06:19 PM 6/3/04 -0400, Joe R. wrote: > I've never seen any Wabash or Elephant 8" disks. Want to? I think I have about a full case of Wabash 8" floppies, half still sealed. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 20:20:10 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040603170949.008e42c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603212010.008cdda0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:02 PM 6/3/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> At 01:08 PM 6/3/04 -0700, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >> >> > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk someplace. >> > >> >On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: >> >> I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! >> > >> >Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise >> >me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't >> >available from 3M! >> >> Let's see; IBM, Tektronix, Verbatim, Memorex, Digital, Maxell, Intel, >> Centech, Radio Shack, Data Systems. That's just some that I have laying >> around the house. > >I doubt Digital, Intel and Tektronix made their own floppies. They're >just branded with their stickers. Ah, I was wondering when somebody would come up with that. The subject was what disks were AVAILABLE, not who made them. FWIW I doubt RS, Centech and a lot of the big companies made their own either. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 3 20:17:10 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: What's the best way to cut a PB book apart for scanning? In-Reply-To: <200406032247.i53Ml3TB020096@spies.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040603211710.008cd900@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:47 PM 6/3/04 -0700, you wrote: > > I found my Millenium MicroSystem Analyzer manual while searching for the >manual for the Brikon 723 FD tester. I thought I'd scan it but it's bound >into a paper back book. What's the best way to cut it apart so that I can >scan it? My scanner has a feeder and it's th only way to scan something. > >-- > >If the glue has dried out, just break the binding and peel the pages apart. >clean the hardened glue off the edge before feeding through the scanner. > >Alternatively, go to a print shop and have them cut the binding with a >paper shear, making sure the spine of the book is flat. Al, I was thinking of that. Thanks. Joe From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 3 21:18:18 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Found Today - Sony SMC-2000, etc. References: <40BC2257.988BEE86@rain.org> Message-ID: <000a01c449da$457dff80$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: "ClassicCmp" Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2004 2:29 AM Subject: Found Today - Sony SMC-2000, etc. > > Something I've wanted for quite a while is a Sony SMC-2000 computer with > the LDP-2000 laserdisc player. Today I finally got it! This unit had > been used by a local school and they needed to get rid of it. It came > with some laserdiscs and ... four service manuals for both the computer > and laserdisc player! Apparently this runs MS-DOS 2.11 and I don't think > that came with it. But unless that is a special OEM version of MS-DOS, > it won't be a problem. Also included were 8 laserdiscs including three > volumes of Dream Machine and two volumes of Space Archive discs. > > They also had several shrinkwrapped packages of IBM DOS 3.30, and I put > one of them on VCM. Also listed on VCM was a copy of the IBM Guide to > Operations for the Personal Computer XT, and Volume 1 of the Hardware > Maintenance and Service for the Personal Computer XT (these are > duplicates of what I already have.) BTW, the money received for these > will go back to the school computer lab. > > They had quite a bit of stuff that will either be sold or sent to that > great storage location in the sky. It looked like there were quite a few > ISA sound cards, network hubs (10 Mb/sec), etc. What monitor did this come with, if any? I have a review of the SMC-70 in a December 1983 issue of Popular Computing and have been interested in the Sony since I read about it there. The article mentions a KX-1211HG monitor with 525 horizontal lines and 625 in the his res mode. Pitch is 0.4 mill. Seems like that was the highlight of the review, this incredible monitor. bm From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 21:30:26 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406031911.26500.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406032333.i53NXbrD017492@onyx.spiritone.com> <200406031911.26500.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20040604023026.GA5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 07:11:26PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 03 June 2004 18:33, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > It's kinda annoying that it lacks the harddrive, as it probably > > > lacks the VAX console software as well then. Well... I've got a bid on it because my own Pro380/former-console has a dead PSU and I traded away the console board long ago. Plus, Pittsburgh is close to Columbus, so shipping will be cheap. Before I left, I was working on my Pro boxes to a) up the memory (replacing 4164s with 41256s) and b) getting all the goodies together for a 2BSD rig. When the PSU died, I put it on the shelf and went back to packing. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.7 F (-66.5 C) Windchill -112.3 F (-80.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4 kts Grid 077 Barometer 661 mb (11351. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dittman at dittman.net Thu Jun 3 21:33:55 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406040149.i541nNU2020580@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 03, 2004 06:49:23 PM Message-ID: <20040604023355.70DB9801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I really hate to see systems that can run VMS wasted running Unix. I agree with you completely, Zane. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 21:34:50 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> <1086300665.2338.43.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040604023450.GB5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:18:00PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > ... and yet nobody was buying 8" Dysan alignment diskettes and new > shrinkwrapped Dysan floppies at $1 per diskette at VCF! My biggest > market segment was teachers who each wanted ONE diskette to wave in > the air when talking to classes about the days of dinosaurs. That's because I wasn't there... I have a carton or two of RX01Ks, but nothing for my S-100 CP/M machine (I'd rather not take a DEC-formatted floppy and overwrite it). I have several 8" drives that aren't RX01s and RX02s (a TM848 in a DEC clone with a 3rd-party Qbus card, a Heath H-27, and at least one DS440 or similar). I haven't tried aligning any of them, but it wouldn't matter anyway, as I have no alignment disks larger than 5.25". -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.5 F (-66.4 C) Windchill -112.8 F (-80.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.1 kts Grid 076 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From marvin at rain.org Thu Jun 3 21:43:55 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Found Today - Sony SMC-2000, etc. References: <40BC2257.988BEE86@rain.org> <000a01c449da$457dff80$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <40BFE1EB.F3008AC7@rain.org> The monitor is a Sony PVM-1271Q and it looks like a very good monitor. Besides the usual, it accepts both PAL and NTSC video (yea!), and this is the only monitor I now have that will accept PAL. Now I can check out some of the European computers :). Brian Mahoney wrote: > > > > Something I've wanted for quite a while is a Sony SMC-2000 computer with > > the LDP-2000 laserdisc player. Today I finally got it! This unit had > > What monitor did this come with, if any? I have a review of the SMC-70 in a > December 1983 issue of Popular Computing and have been interested in the > Sony since I read about it there. The article mentions a KX-1211HG monitor > with 525 horizontal lines and 625 in the his res mode. Pitch is 0.4 mill. > Seems like that was the highlight of the review, this incredible monitor. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 21:50:45 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406032018.33663.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406040036.i540awhh019093@onyx.spiritone.com> <200406032018.33663.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20040604025045.GC5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 08:18:33PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 03 June 2004 19:36, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > ...I don't have any real interest in running Unix on DEC HW. > > Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at > some point. My interest is closing the circle on an old project... I ran 2.9BSD on a real 11/24, 17+ years ago, but two RL02s is not enough space to do a lot, including load all the sources and rebuild the kernel. It wasn't my first UNIX experience, by far, but it was my first UNIX experience on my own hardware ($300 for the CPU, several hundred dollars more for an RL11, KT24, memory cards, etc.) > VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;) Well... when I got my start, we ran both VMS (3.6) and 4BSD on VAX-11/750s and 11/730s (then, later, VMS 4.x and Ultrix-32)... I see the smiley, but I have to chime in that back in the day, you ran into both, depending on what circles you travelled in. > Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but that's not real > Unix (or on-topic by age). And Alphas are pretty nice at running VMS, presuming you have wads and wads of physical memory. I had a good time babysitting the Alpha cluster at H&R Block before coming back to the Ice. It was fun to be using VMS on a daily basis again. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -87.0 F (-66.2 C) Windchill -112.8 F (-80.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.3 kts Grid 079 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dittman at dittman.net Thu Jun 3 21:57:43 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <20040604025045.GC5916@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 04, 2004 02:50:45 AM Message-ID: <20040604025743.67686801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> > And Alphas are pretty nice at running VMS, presuming you have wads and > wads of physical memory. I had a good time babysitting the Alpha cluster > at H&R Block before coming back to the Ice. It was fun to be using VMS > on a daily basis again. Depending on what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 22:11:19 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <40BFCEB4.3020301@nktelco.net> References: <200406032129.i53LTC61013180@onyx.spiritone.com> <40BFCEB4.3020301@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <20040604031119.GD5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:21:56PM -0400, Charles H. Dickman wrote: > >>I don't know what makes it a console. Presumably some interface into > >>the VAX guts, but what that interface is I have no clue. > > > I have one of these. The VAX Console interface is kind of interesting. > It is called the Real Time Interface, option PC3XX-AA, and includes two > RS-232 ports, a number of discrete I/O lines, and an IEEE-488 bus. The > VAX was attached to a 62-pin D-shell connector, according to a scan I > have http://www.chd.dyndns.org/pdp11/Pro380_RTI.pdf Looks like it would > have been perfect for use in a lab for driving test equipment. That's why I want to play with one again - I have a variety of IEEE-488 devices, mostly C=, but a little HP and Tek. > You really need the keyboard and display to make it work. A terminal can > be connected to the printer port and used with ODT, but that is about > it, at least with P/OS, I am not sure about RT-11. The monochrome video > is NTSC, so a simple TV monitor will work. I had to dig out an old > TRS-80 Model I display to make it work. Are VR201s really that hard to find? Certainly LK201s aren't. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -86.2 F (-65.7 C) Windchill -110.1 F (-79 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.9 kts Grid 057 Barometer 660.7 mb (11364 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 3 22:11:54 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <20040604025743.67686801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "Eric Dittman" at Jun 03, 2004 09:57:43 PM Message-ID: <200406040311.i543BswU021879@onyx.spiritone.com> > Depending on what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous > amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS. In part it depends on how you define "Enormous Amounts", based on my experience the minimum to run OpenVMS on Alpha is 112MB, and on a VAX that would be an "Enormous Amount". Of course my main system is currently running with 640MB RAM and sitting at 42% used. Zane From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 22:15:40 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <16575.54222.397000.871943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> <200406032109.i53L9Gd6012450@onyx.spiritone.com> <20040603231010.GA22452@bos7.spole.gov> <16575.54222.397000.871943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040604031540.GE5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: > Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those > Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS. > > There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and > RD51. Be careful... Ah... didn't know that... would it have shipped with the PRO380, though? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.5 F (-65.3 C) Windchill -108.4 F (-78 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.6 kts Grid 077 Barometer 660.8 mb (11359. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 3 22:19:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406040149.i541nNU2020580@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Actually unless I'm mistaken Linux on Alpha's is now ontopic, or if it > isn't, it is sure getting close. Linux itself has been ontopic for almost So is Windows 3.0 and 3.1 and 3.11. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 3 22:33:41 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <20040603224558.GG18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: > well, not to mention mold, mildew and small beings with sharp claws > and fangs, that few people believe exist, who come up from below the > tiles and try to eat people when the lights go off during a > power-failure at night. > Oh. You mean the sysadmin. g. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 22:27:31 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406040149.i541nNU2020580@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200406032018.33663.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200406040149.i541nNU2020580@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20040604032731.GG5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 06:49:23PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I really hate to see systems that can run VMS wasted running Unix. I can appreciate the sentiment, but at one point, historically, a VAX running some variant of BSD was the touchstone of compatibility if you were writing stuff for UNIX (cf. the "All The World's a VAX" syndrome in C programming for a long time). Of course, if you want to run old apps (or games like Larn), any modern UNIXy platform will run the app. I still have a killer app for UNIX on a MASSBUS machine - music played on a TU78. I never got the chance to run the program on our big 11/750 (it ran VMS only, as our departmental mail/word processing/development machine), and our little 11/750 didn't have a MASSBUS card in any of the MASSBUS slots (just a second Unibus and/or an SI9900 controller). I've always wanted to hear that tape drive "sing". -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.3 F (-65.2 C) Windchill -109.1 F (-78.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.9 kts Grid 078 Barometer 660.7 mb (11364 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 3 22:37:41 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406040311.i543BswU021879@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20040604025743.67686801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200406040311.i543BswU021879@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20040604033741.GH5916@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 08:11:54PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Depending on what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous > > amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS. > > In part it depends on how you define "Enormous Amounts", based on my > experience the minimum to run OpenVMS on Alpha is 112MB, and on a VAX that > would be an "Enormous Amount". Of course my main system is currently > running with 640MB RAM and sitting at 42% used. Exactly... I used to run production stuff on an 11/750 w/8MB and a uVAX-II w/16 MB (VMS 4.x and VMS 5.x). At home, my "largest" VAX is an 8300 with about 18MB, running VMS 6.x. Now I know that VMS 6 and up have larger memory requirements, but I can't imagine an Alpha OpenVMS machine with less than 128MB being useful, unlike a VAX. I still like the Alpha, but it gobbles RAM chips for breakfast. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 03:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.9 F (-65.0 C) Windchill -108.2 F (-77.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 3.7 kts Grid 077 Barometer 660.9 mb (11355. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 3 22:39:14 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <20040604031540.GE5916@bos7.spole.gov> References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> <16575.54222.397000.871943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20040604031540.GE5916@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406032239.14261.pat@computer-refuge.org> Ethan Dicks declared on Thursday 03 June 2004 10:15 pm: > On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: > > > > Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those > > Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS. > > > > There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and > > RD51. Be careful... > > Ah... didn't know that... would it have shipped with the PRO380, > though? I doubt it would have shipped with anything other than the PRO325/350. Also, considering the machine was a vax console machine, it would have been towards the end of the production life of PROs. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rdd at rddavis.org Thu Jun 3 22:43:25 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <20040604034325.GA20106@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Brian Mahoney, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:46:47PM -0400: > Depends on who is paying the hospital bills. If it's the state, as in > Canadian taxes, then I'm for helmets and belts. (Belts are now enforced in Yet another reason as to why socialized medicine is a bad thing. It's bad enough to have to pay the expensive insurance premiums for an indemnity policy (and if everyone bought these instead of using those damned HMOs, most people would be paying into such policies and then most people would have much better health insurance for a reasonable cost, which existed before the blasted HMOs came into existence, ruined an excellent health-care system, making health insurance extremely inexpensive for young and healthy people while making it vastly more expensive for others as they got older, etc.), but worse yet to have the government pay and have even more control over people's lives. Who in their right mind wants more government control over everything? Next, you won't be allowed to work on electrical circuits because it's dangerous and the government pays for your health insurance... not that such insurance up there in Canada is worth much anyway, considering the number of people who come to the U.S. from Canada, paying their own way to be admitted to U.S. hospitals for surgery, etc. if they can afford to. Government paid health care is usually poor quality health care; surely people in countries such as England, and other parts of the U.K., can attest to that. It's just a bad idea that doesn't work right due to the bureaucracy and cost-cutting measures that don't take the patient's health into consideration (like a huge HMO, only worse since a government runs it). > all 50 states aren't they?) There used to be a campaign here, started by a Damned nuisances; got caught twice by cops already for those seat-belt laws which have no right to exist in a free society. > But I think in the States, if you fall off your bike and crack your own > skull you can sue the pavement people for making it too hard. That makes > more sense than forcing people to wear helmets and do up seatbelts. > Absolutely no one should be able to force common sense on us. Well, helmets can cause injuries as well. I stopped wearing a riding helmet on horseback, since it limits vision to some extent---which negates safety benefits; there's no such thing as a guarantee of safety around horses, so, wearing a helmet just eliminates a very few, out of many, risks. Almost had a helmet caught in a tree branch while blazing a trail through thickish woods, which could have darned near pulled my head off my neck! When I was younger, I did a lot of bicycle riding, and never wore a helmet; wouldn't have enjoyed bicycling at all with one of those blasted annoyances on my head and would have refused to wear one. ...and would bicycle helmets have protected the bicycle riders that my horse could have easily kicked in the face when they came up too fast behind us on a trail, and then shouted loudly as they approached from several feet away? Naturally, she kicked out at them, barely missing them (darn!), and could have thrown me off as a result of their stupidity if I'd lost my balance. Remember this: helmets don't save stupid people from their own stupidity. Taking this topic back to classic computers, consider this: needlessly extreme safety precautions forced upon idiots, such as a government would institute, taken during the troubleshooting of power supplies and other circuits with lethal current levels, wouldn't save idiots from their own stupidity. Can't you see it now, laws such as "only stand on government approved rubber mats while working on electrical equipment" or "high-voltage probes not meeting standard X23124Y534Z5 are considered illegal devices, and anyone found possessing one will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law." -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From dittman at dittman.net Thu Jun 3 22:55:53 2004 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406040311.i543BswU021879@onyx.spiritone.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 03, 2004 08:11:54 PM Message-ID: <20040604035553.5D18B801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Depending on what you are doing you don't necessarily need an enormous > > amount of physical memory on an Alpha to run VMS. > > In part it depends on how you define "Enormous Amounts", based on my > experience the minimum to run OpenVMS on Alpha is 112MB, and on a VAX that > would be an "Enormous Amount". Of course my main system is currently > running with 640MB RAM and sitting at 42% used. For an Alpha an enormous amount would be 1GB or more. An Alpha has a higher memory footprint than a VAX due to the Alpha being a RISC processor. Memory for an Alpha is relatively inexpensive, though, so that's not a problem. But again, it all depends on what you are doing. If you aren't running DECwindows, a database, or supporting a lot of interactive users an Alpha with 128MB is fine. On the other hand, one of the clusters I manage has two VAX 7730 systems with 2GB of memory each and the memory isn't going to waste. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Jun 3 23:35:05 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040604034325.GA20106@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that R. D. Davis may have mentioned these words: >Quothe Brian Mahoney, from writings of Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at > > all 50 states aren't they?) I don't believe so: New Hampshire is (was? Gawd, I hope not!) the last state which didn't, and their motto is: "Live Free or Die." Hmmmm... Remember, tho: The 55mph speed limit used to be federal law too... and they said it would save lives. Did it? No. >Remember this: helmets don't save stupid people from their own stupidity. Bingo... >Taking this topic back to classic computers, consider this: Consider this: If everyone were still running VAXen, Commodores, Tandys, Ataris, etc. would we have as many computer idiots today? Probably not. But look what we have: Winblows XP & MacOS. Computers on training wheels, and how many people actually know how to fix the damn things? 2% of the population? Tops? And some people actually think that Lindows is the answer... hell, it's part of the problem! Now we have Linux on training wheels. Yiippee. :-/ Altho, it keeps my company in business... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 3 23:56:28 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <10406040047.ZM4200@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Jun 3, 13:08, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > I'm almost sure I've seen a 16 hard sectored 8 inch disk > someplace. > > > > On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Don Maslin wrote: > > > I suppose that is possible, Dwight, but it may be a surprise to 3M! > > > > Although I do not have any examples handy, it would not surprise > > me at all to find out that there exist SOME media that weren't > > available from 3M! > > The original IBM hard-sectored 8" floppies had 8 sectors, and I don't > think 3M ever made those :-) Do you know how they formatted them, Pete? Perhaps 512/sector? - don From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 4 00:26:59 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <20040603152429.T95145@newshell.lmi.net> References: <0406031343.AA16765@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20040603152429.T95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200406040530.BAA07529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> to avoid waste water from the computer room contaminating the mouse >>> rooms below. >> What's a mouse room? > The area under raised floors can provide a very comfortable and > convenient habitat for rodents. They are hard to drown. > Perhaps Der Mouse would know for sure? I'm really not all that well qualified to say, I'm afraid. I've never had to resort to trying to live under computer room raised floor, nor has anyone tried to drown me (that I've noticed :-). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nico at farumdata.dk Fri Jun 4 00:45:02 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:13 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040603132042.04cc86f0@mail.30below.com> <1086300783.2338.46.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <009d01c449f7$159802d0$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Tom Jennings" Subject: Re: 8" hard sectored floppies > On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 10:25, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > > >Hard and Soft sectored disks are never compatible. > > > > Ah, never say never, my friend! ;-) > > I believe the ubiquituous NEC 765 (et al) does its "index" on read by > scanning for the 0th sector ID (which is 1 :-) The index hole is only > needed for formatting, and that only for compatiblity. > > I agree, "never" is a big word. I suddenly came to think of that I have read quite some hard-sectored disks in my 8" drive, so yes, "never" is wrong. On the other hand, I've seen an occasion where a (5.25") drive reacted on every hole as if it was an index hole, so believning that the drives spins at 12x (or whatever) normal speed. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 From aek at spies.com Fri Jun 4 01:22:04 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Classic PDP-8 wire wrap bits Message-ID: <200406040622.i546M48g022725@spies.com> I was thinking about the poor guy in Finland that was going to have to rewire his PDP-7 backplane tonight, and did some digging for bit/sleeve part numbers. Amazingly, you can still buy the right stuff from Cooper Tools. They have a really neat pdf catalog http://www.cooperhandtools.com/catalog/pdffiles/electcat_00/Brands/WireWrap.PDF >From a 1967 DEC Logic Handbook, you need a gardner-denver 26263 bit and 18840 sleeve for #24 wire and 504221 bit and 500350 sleeve for #30 wire. The #24 unwrapping tool is 500130 These may also work for 1401 connectors, which are quite similar to the H800 DEC single sided module blocks with rectangular shaped pins. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Jun 4 02:30:27 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <1BB4FFEA-B562-11D8-981A-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.a u> References: <10405290926.ZM28158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <10405290926.ZM28158@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040604081217.070d6d18@pop.freeserve.net> I was at a customers some years back.. Old building, but it had been totally gutted and all new insides. There was a small cupboard to the side of the computer room (actually more of an office, where the MVME based Motorola unix box and one of the patch panels lived) inside of which was the main fusebox for the floor. 415V three phase splitting off to (our normal) separate 240V circuits.. Anyway, I was sat at a desk with my back to the cupboard, server in front and to my left, and suddenly heard running water... turned around, and the wall behind me was swimming... opened the cupboard and it was pouring down the cables and across the fusebox.. The power went off shortly afterwards.. luckily it missed the server, which was on a UPS, and we did an orderly shutdown. It was Air Conditioning again .... For some reason known only to themselves, the AirCon plant for the floor was situated in the loft (Attic) directly above the computer room. It had a drip tray under it, which wasn't secured, nor drained properly. When it got full, it tilted, and dispensed it's entire load of water onto the floor, and hence us below! It did it again a few weeks later, too.... Not as much fun as the time we got a phonecall from a customer saying "My computer just blew up". We chuckled and said we'd come have a look, expecting a fuse blown or something. Arrived and found a PC clone with all the blanking plates, buttons, and the front of the floppy drive on the floor in front of it, the blanking plates on the expansion slots all bowed outwards, and a nasty smell in the air. We decided the remove the machine from site before opening it ... When we did, found it was a 486 machine where the battery backed CMOS ram was (had been) baked up by an external battery plugged into the board. This had been stuck to the back panel of the box. It had exploded! Possibly connected to the board backwards? The force of the explosion had been enough to fling bits of battery and the plastic box it was encased in /through/ the ribbon cables in the machine, as well as the aforementioned ejection of all loose fittings on the case. Battery acid everywhere, too, eating through tracks on everything. The hard disc survived long enough to get the data off it, but the rest of the machine was pretty much destroyed. And this poor girl had had it under her desk by her feet when it had gone bang! Poor thing must have had the shock of her life! Rob. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 4 02:30:55 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: Don Maslin "Re: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 3, 21:56) References: Message-ID: <10406040830.ZM4614@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 3, 21:56, Don Maslin wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The original IBM hard-sectored 8" floppies had 8 sectors, and I don't > > think 3M ever made those :-) > > Do you know how they formatted them, Pete? Perhaps 512/sector? I don't know. I've never actually seen one (except in photos), let alone used one. I know they only held 80K, spun in the opposite direction to modern floppies, were much thicker, and (for the customer) were read-only. http://www.computerworld.com/news/1999/story/0,11280,62286,00.html http://history.acusd.edu/gen/recording/mag/p42.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 4 03:08:48 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 03 Jun 2004 18:20:27 EDT." <3.0.6.32.20040603182027.008a77f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406040808.JAA26027@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Joe R." said: > At 03:52 PM 6/3/04 -0600, you wrote: > >Teo Zenios wrote: > > > >>> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught > >>> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 > > > >So what was the REAL LEAD pencils used to write on?> > > I don't know. Do I look that old? :-) The Romans wrote on thin slices of wood. I'm not that old either, I just watch too much bbc tv... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From g-wright at att.net Thu Jun 3 18:50:31 2004 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright@att.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? Message-ID: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> >----- Original Message ----- >From: "R. D. Davis" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:49 PM >Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > ----- Snip > >> Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll get more lead exposure from >> soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it. >> > >Pencils? JOE> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught JOE> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 years JOE> or more. JOE> Joe Boy that puts a different spin having "no Lead in you pencil". - Jerry From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Jun 3 18:56:09 2004 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Wanted: M9312 ROMs (data i/o help needed) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040603170237.008e2250@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200406031704.i53H4jrQ017351@mail.bcpl.net> Message-ID: <200406032356.i53NuKrQ016116@mail.bcpl.net> On 3 Jun 2004 at 17:02, Joe R. wrote: > >ftp://ftp.dataio.com/ftp/device_lists/_archive/unipak2b.txt > > I'd be happy with a link that worked! :-) Works for me: F:\Temp>wget ftp://ftp.dataio.com/ftp/device_lists/_archive/unipak2b.txt --19:51:36-- ftp://ftp.dataio.com/ftp/device_lists/_archive/unipak2b.txt => `unipak2b.txt' Resolving ftp.dataio.com... 139.138.48.12 Connecting to ftp.dataio.com[139.138.48.12]:21... connected. Logging in as anonymous ... Logged in! ==> SYST ... done. ==> PWD ... done. ==> TYPE I ... done. ==> CWD /ftp/device_lists/_archive ... done. ==> PORT ... done. ==> RETR unipak2b.txt ... done. Length: 132,799 (unauthoritative) 100%[====================================>] 132,799 3.50K/s ETA 00:00 19:52:24 (3.23 KB/s) - `unipak2b.txt' saved [132799] Maybe they don't like you, Joe! ;-) -- Dave From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Jun 3 22:08:17 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic References: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478065531ED@exchange.olf.com> Message-ID: <001a01c449e1$2eab1610$6401a8c0@hal9000> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: Never seen this before: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4604&item=4134681929& rd=1 A Rackmountable MAC Classic with a VME Backplane..... Wow, how cool is that? But my question is, "why?" To further the "why" question..... quoting my wise grandfather, "Just because you 'can' put a diamond in a goat's ass, doesn't mean you should !" regards, SAC From cc at corti-net.de Fri Jun 4 01:10:04 2004 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I also believe that one can use hard sectored disk in place of > soft sectored disk in most machines( of course formatted as soft > sectored ). No, you can't. Or at least with many side effects because the floppy controller will see 33 index pulses (32 sector holes + 1 true index hole) per revolution. When looking for a sector most FDCs abandon operation if the sector has not been found after e.g. 5 revolutions i.e. 5 "holes" from the diskette. > quality. In fact, I punch a new index window in some of my > double density 8 inch floppies and I've been using them, with > no troubles, as single density. It is always possible to format a DD disk to SD because the latter has a similar bit density on the media. > The 5-1/4 disk are a different story. Single/Double don't mix. Of course they do. Single density refers to FM encoding, double density to MFM (or M2FM). What you mean is SD/DD and HD don't mix because the magnetic media as very different properties. Christian From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jun 4 05:11:44 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: In message <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> Roger Merchberger wrote: > If everyone were still running VAXen, Commodores, Tandys, Ataris, etc. > would we have as many computer idiots today? > > Probably not. Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written specifically for them, IIRC. People were too busy either using them to monitor scientific experiments (PDPs and VAXen especially) or playing games on them (C64s, BBC Micros, etc). > But look what we have: Winblows XP & MacOS. Computers on training wheels, > and how many people actually know how to fix the damn things? 2% of the > population? Tops? 0.9% in my experience. The real problem is people who know enough to be dangerous, but don't know enough to fix the machine properly. > And some people actually think that Lindows is the answer... hell, it's > part of the problem! Now we have Linux on training wheels. Yiippee. :-/ Ah, but look at how many viruses exist for Windows (something like 130,000 last time I checked) then look at how many exist for Linux - four. Admittedly there are "rootkits", but as long as you make sure people can't log in as root (or don't want to log in as root - remove the GUI in superuser/root mode), getting the RK in there in the first place is difficult. Make the machine grab the relevant security patches as they're released and have it autoinstall them. Take MICROS~1 software (stretching the dictionary definition a bit, but bear with me) out of the equation and watch as the amount of bandwidth used on the Internet drops, then note the speed-up. Now the icing on the cake - RISC OS. 650 virus "strains" known. 95.5% of them exist only in virus collections. TTBOMK there was never a virus written for RISC OS that was capable of transmitting itself over the Internet. > Altho, it keeps my company in business... Ho yus :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Mr. Worf, set phasors on spin dry. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 4 05:31:35 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written > specifically for them, IIRC. I think you don't recall correctly, or perhaps you never heard of the Morris worm. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I'm fairly sure one of its spreading mechanisms involved a VAX machine-language grappling hook. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 4 05:41:58 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> <1086300665.2338.43.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > There used to be a popular folk myth that all single sided diskettes > actually double sided ones that had failed testing on one side. > I find it hard to believe that any company could be profitable > with THAT high a failure rate! > I once worked in memorex in the tape plant where open reel tape was made and that is exactly how it was done, raw tape was run through error detecting machines and sorted. From yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt Fri Jun 4 05:57:01 2004 From: yoda at isr.ist.utl.pt (Rodrigo Ventura) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Xerox workstation for sale Message-ID: Hello everyone. Several years ago I got a Xerox workstation from a junkyard. I believe the model is a Daybreak. At that time I got it partially booting, using some homebrew interfacing hardware. At the meantime I got married, and I have to get rid of the thing (lack of space and wife's interest ;). However, I don't want it teared apart for recycling. I want it preserved. Therefore, I'm puting it to sale! I live in Lisbon, Portugal (EU). I have some photos online at the following URL: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/library/gallery/Xeroxworkstation I also have three peripherals: two tape streamers and one 5 1/4 floppy drive. Since it has no keyboard, mouse or monitor, I built interfaces to connect it to a VGA monitor, and to a PC. I can include the stuff I did with the machine. Cheers, Rodrigo Ventura -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 4 06:42:36 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 4, 04 00:35:05 am Message-ID: <200406041142.HAA03810@wordstock.com> And thusly Roger Merchberger spake: > > Consider this: > > If everyone were still running VAXen, Commodores, Tandys, Ataris, etc. > would we have as many computer idiots today? Plus we would still have a wonderful thing known as *competition*!. Cheers, Bryan Pope From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 4 09:42:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic In-Reply-To: <001a01c449e1$2eab1610$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Steven Canning wrote: > To further the "why" question..... quoting my wise grandfather, "Just > because you 'can' put a diamond in a goat's ass, doesn't mean you should !" You've got a very strange grandfather. (People should lock the goats up in the barn when he's around :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 4 09:45:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written specifically for > them, IIRC. I don't know about the VAX, but there certainly were "viruses" written for the C64, and the Apple ][, and I'm sure many other 8-bits (and also the VAX for that matter). > > But look what we have: Winblows XP & MacOS. Computers on training wheels, > > and how many people actually know how to fix the damn things? 2% of the > > population? Tops? > 0.9% in my experience. The real problem is people who know enough to be > dangerous, but don't know enough to fix the machine properly. Yeah, progress sucks. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 4 09:48:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Xerox workstation for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Rodrigo Ventura wrote: > Since it has no keyboard, mouse or monitor, I built interfaces to > connect it to a VGA monitor, and to a PC. I can include the stuff I > did with the machine. Proving once again that anyone can do anything if they haven't been told it's supposed to be impossible! I remember discussions on this list way back when where the conclusion was that it would be extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to hook a VGA monitor to a Daybreak. Rodrigo rocks! Rodrigo, do you have any notes that you wrote down for this project? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 4 10:24:34 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <200406031851.OAA02080@wordstock.com> <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <16576.37938.422933.192959@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brian" == Brian Mahoney writes: Brian> Depends on who is paying the hospital bills. If it's the Brian> state, as in Canadian taxes, then I'm for helmets and Brian> belts. (Belts are now enforced in all 50 states aren't they?) No. NH does it for kids but not adults. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 4 10:31:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) References: <200406032129.i53LTC61013180@onyx.spiritone.com> <40BFCEB4.3020301@nktelco.net> <20040604031119.GD5916@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16576.38364.562227.492556@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: >> You really need the keyboard and display to make it work. A >> terminal can be connected to the printer port and used with ODT, >> but that is about it, at least with P/OS, I am not sure about >> RT-11. The monochrome video is NTSC, so a simple TV monitor will >> work. I had to dig out an old TRS-80 Model I display to make it >> work. Ethan> Are VR201s really that hard to find? Certainly LK201s aren't. It seems reasonable; LK201s were used with all the 200 series terminals... but VR201s only go with the Pro/DECmate/Rainbow. Fortunately, a substitute for a VR201 is trivial (unlike a substitute for an LK201 -- certainly doable but it would take some work). paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 4 10:36:46 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) References: <40BF9228.8070506@soupwizard.com> <200406032109.i53L9Gd6012450@onyx.spiritone.com> <20040603231010.GA22452@bos7.spole.gov> <16575.54222.397000.871943@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20040604031540.GE5916@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16576.38670.513119.13506@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Thu, Jun 03, 2004 at 09:43:42PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> Or an ST-225 or ST-251 formatted as an RD31 or RD32. Those Ethan> are abundant, and large enough for RT-11 or P/OS. >> There are two Pro disk controllers -- one only supports RD50 and >> RD51. Be careful... Ethan> Ah... didn't know that... would it have shipped with the Ethan> PRO380, though? Quite possibly if the system was configured with the older drives. I just realized I may be misremembering the details -- it may be that you need the new controller for RD53 and up -- and RD50 through RD52 work with both. I do remember that I had to upgrade my PRO disk controller when I upgraded the drive. It probably was RD52 to RD53 -- it's been a while... paul From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 4 11:01:17 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jun 4, 4 07:45:28 am" Message-ID: <200406041601.JAA17480@floodgap.com> > > Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written specifically > > for them, IIRC. > > I don't know about the VAX, but there certainly were "viruses" written for > the C64, and the Apple ][, and I'm sure many other 8-bits (and also the > VAX for that matter). There was a C64 virus called BHP (sometimes called HIV) that was written by a cracker group in Germany. It wasn't particularly virulent and was easily defeated by restarting the machine (it couldn't spread by itself unless you saved a file to disk while the virus was installed, and most people usually restart the machine after running something -- I know this has been my habit long before I even knew about the virus). It wasn't found much in the wild, but 64'er magazin released a scanner for it which could repair files by stripping the payload. I don't recall it having any serious effects on the system other than slowing things down. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Everything you think you know is wrong. -- Jack Chalker -------------------- From Watzman at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 4 09:52:05 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Cromemco 64KZ and other S-100 board information needed Message-ID: <40C08C95.8070906@neo.rr.com> I have a Cromemco 64KZ-II memory board but no manual. If anyone has a manual in PDF format, that would be ideal, but in the absence of that, I'd settle for a short description of how the board is organized and what the 3 dip switches and two LEDs do. I am also looking for the following manuals if anyone has these in PDF formats: IMSAI VIO, MIO and SIO2-2 Processor Technology VDM-1 and 3P+S Industrial Microsystems 8K static memory board Seals 8K Static Ram I have over 100 manuals in PDF format, and have made significant contributions to the S-100 manual library at: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/ Direct E-Mail responses would be appreciated. Thanks, Barry Watzman Watzman@neo.rr.com From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 4 11:13:55 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <16576.37938.422933.192959@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <20040603184905.GA18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <005001c449d5$de615940$6402a8c0@home> <16576.37938.422933.192959@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200406041214.30874.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 A related note appraer on the reg today Toxic dust found lurking in tech kit By Lucy Sherriff A study conducted by environmental groups in the US has found yet another way our computers are trying to kill us. The research found that dust on computer processors and monitors contains several chemicals that have been linked to neurological and reproductive disorders. The source? Brominated fire retardants, such as polybrominated diphenyl (PBDEs). http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/06/04/killer_pc/ - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAwJ/mLPrIaE/xBZARAiDoAKC9UW2VqB4hsDbAygMgTR9PgGUGngCfT/1u lHn56w6uFV/oHxeMEtJHvMc= =bc8i -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jun 4 11:34:25 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Proposal: Oldware database In-Reply-To: <200406040638.i546cChc091781@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406040638.i546cChc091781@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, I was thinking today about old software (okay, I was playing Master of Orion 1 :-) ) and realized that there may be a service opportunity we have. I don't know if such exists already, please point me there if it does. What I'm thinking of is a central site to point out old software or software for old systems that have been placed in public domain or otherwise made available for nominal charges by their original manufacturers. I'd like to see something like a database containing: Name of package Brief description (maybe two paragraphs) Rating (something like a one-to-five-mice rating, or maybe with valves?) Platform/OS it runs on (database should be sorted on this field) Where to get it Company that made it. Current owner of that company, (includes web-link) Current main product line of that company Person/group responsible for making it available Current business of that person (includes web-link) A couple of examples I know a little about: Lighthouse Design Ltd Office Suite Office Suite, consists of mail, spreadsheet, text, presentation packages vvvv (four tubes out of 5) NeXTStep 3.x http://www.peanuts.org/peanuts/NEXTSTEP/commercial Lighthouse Design Sun workstations/servers ??? ??? OPENVMS 7.3 Operating system, utilities, development tools vvvv VAX, Alpha hardware http://www.montagar.com/hobbyist/mount.html DEC HP printers :-) ???? ???? But even here, I don't really know the right people to credit. This seems like a good way to return a bit of good karma to the folks that support old hardware and software, as well as a valuable resource for those of us trying to do vintage computing on a budget. I guess I have not thought far enough into how to limit the database from becoming enormous. I'd say some necessary criteria are; 1) package runs on a "classic" (that is > 10 years old) platform 2) package was at one time sold in the normal software marketplace (i.e. not shareware/freeware/etc since inception) 3) package can now be downloaded or ordered from somewhere for free/cost-of-media/similarly low cost. Comments or suggestions? Some questions I have: a) should there be a separate category for software for classic systems which is still being sold and supported (a la the older Ambrosia shareware games for Mac, like Escape Velocity, or Create! for NeXTSTep 3.3)? b) should there be an "archive pointer" section that points to existing archives of shareware, such as http://www.peanuts.org/ for NeXT stuff? (I think this would be *far* preferable to trying to catalog every single shareware package on every archive....) I don't have any webhosting skills or abilities, so I can't set this up, but if I can help, let me know. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 4 11:50:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: Proposal: Oldware database In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Mark Tapley wrote: > I was thinking today about old software (okay, I was playing > Master of Orion 1 :-) ) and realized that there may be a service > opportunity we have. I don't know if such exists already, please > point me there if it does. Hi Mark. Good idea! Look here: http://www.vintage.org/links.php#27 And specifically here: http://abandonweb.abware.net/ And maybe here: http://www.tuol.org/ There used to be at least one more abandonware site but it's gone now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Jun 4 12:11:47 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? Message-ID: <200406041711.i54HBlIS007100@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written specifically for > them, IIRC. [...] VAXen? How about the Morris worm that flooded the Internet back in 86? It had a specific buffer overflow (for fingerd) that injected vax machine code onto the stack. **vp From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 12:17:42 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:14 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406041717.KAA29509@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Ron Hudson" > > >> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >> There used to be a popular folk myth that all single sided diskettes >> actually double sided ones that had failed testing on one side. >> I find it hard to believe that any company could be profitable >> with THAT high a failure rate! >> >I once worked in memorex in the tape plant where open reel tape was made >and that is exactly how it was done, raw tape was run through error >detecting >machines and sorted. > > Hi This thinking always reminds me of a story from Intel. When they first started making 2716's, TI was biting into their 2708 market with the 2758's. Intel fought back with their version of the 2508. These were early half bad failures from the 2716 line. They even had a H/L pin to select which half to use. When they first started, they sold for quite a bit less than the 2716's ( about $30 ea ). Over time, the 2716's pricing went down to around $4 someplace. I got a kick out of seeing one of their price list showing the 2508's still being sold for $32 ea. While I suspect that originally the half bad parts made sense but at the premium price they got for these, I suspect that they later just took fully tested 2716's and relabeled them. I wonder how many purchasing agents realized that the 2716's worked just as well. Dwight From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Fri Jun 4 11:22:47 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Xerox workstation for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20040605032247.01198b14@pop-server> At 07:48 AM 6/4/04 -0700, you wrote: >On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Rodrigo Ventura wrote: > >> Since it has no keyboard, mouse or monitor, I built interfaces to >> connect it to a VGA monitor, and to a PC. I can include the stuff I >> did with the machine. I believe I still have a keyboard, mouse and (big maybe) possibly some other parts for one of these machines. Years and years ago I picked one up, but could never get it running. The machine is now long gone, but the keyboard and mouse are still here. The external 5.25" floppy drive is probably still around here somewhere, and the HDD maybe in amongst the other MFM HDDs here. It could take a while to find them though. If someone needs them they're available for 1.5 x shipping costs. I'm in Australia, shipping to the USA will probably be at least AU$20. From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jun 4 12:27:10 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Hero remote for pver $500 Message-ID: <006501c44a59$2cbb1760$a7406b43@66067007> How can a remote control be worth over $500? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19198&item=5900569057 From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 4 12:36:55 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > I think you don't recall correctly, or perhaps you never heard of the > Morris worm. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I'm fairly > sure one of its spreading mechanisms involved a VAX machine-language > grappling hook. I would think the reason that the older machines do not have worms and virus (generally) is that ciding them back then was simply not in style. 20 years ago, if a worm was released for VMS, would it make the news? Would anyone outside of a few thousand sysadmins really care? What glory would there be for the hacker? Not much... I think the "first" was written on a Univac system. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 4 13:17:20 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Hero remote for pver $500 In-Reply-To: <006501c44a59$2cbb1760$a7406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040604141720.00857210@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:27 PM 6/4/04 -0500, you wrote: >How can a remote control be worth over $500? >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19198&item=5900569057 > Supply and demand! I see that there were lots of serious bids for it from 5 different bidders. Also it was NIB!!! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 4 13:14:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Half bad 2716s was:Re: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <200406041717.KAA29509@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040604141432.00793e50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dwight, I have a programmer that's suppsoed to be for the intel 2704 and 2708. I've never seen any info on the 2704 and I've never seen one but I'm guessing that it's a half bad 2708. Do you know any more about it? Joe At 10:17 AM 6/4/04 -0700, you wrote: >>From: "Ron Hudson" >> >> >>> On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: >>> There used to be a popular folk myth that all single sided diskettes >>> actually double sided ones that had failed testing on one side. >>> I find it hard to believe that any company could be profitable >>> with THAT high a failure rate! >>> >>I once worked in memorex in the tape plant where open reel tape was made >>and that is exactly how it was done, raw tape was run through error >>detecting >>machines and sorted. >> >> > >Hi > This thinking always reminds me of a story from Intel. >When they first started making 2716's, TI was biting >into their 2708 market with the 2758's. Intel fought >back with their version of the 2508. These were early >half bad failures from the 2716 line. They even had >a H/L pin to select which half to use. When they >first started, they sold for quite a bit less than >the 2716's ( about $30 ea ). Over time, the 2716's >pricing went down to around $4 someplace. I got a kick >out of seeing one of their price list showing the >2508's still being sold for $32 ea. > While I suspect that originally the half bad parts >made sense but at the premium price they got for these, >I suspect that they later just took fully tested >2716's and relabeled them. > I wonder how many purchasing agents realized that >the 2716's worked just as well. >Dwight > > > From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 4 15:02:18 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004 g-wright@att.net wrote: > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "R. D. Davis" > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 2:49 PM > >Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > > > > > ----- Snip > > > >> Relax, don't panic. Realize that they'll get more lead exposure from > >> soldering or from pencils and don't waste your time worrying about it. > >> > > > >Pencils? > > JOE> Pencils used lead in the time of the Romans. Some people haven't caught > JOE> onto the fact that pencils now use graphite and have for the last 200 years > JOE> or more. > > JOE> Joe > > Boy that puts a different spin having "no Lead in you pencil". > > - Jerry Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied. Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also! - don From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 4 15:33:57 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 17:03, Fred Cisin wrote: > But, then, when density was finally increased, "quad density" > and "super density" were already used up as names, so the > mindless jerks called it "HD"/"High Density". "HD"/"High Density" > is MFM at 500K bits per second data transfer rate on a 360 > RPM drive. (Which is exactly what 8" DD was) Fred, you should stop remembering these things, it's bad for you. PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 4 15:37:39 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040604133505.T21287@newshell.lmi.net> > > But look what we have: Winblows XP & MacOS. Computers on training wheels, > > and how many people actually know how to fix the damn things? 2% of the > > population? Tops? > 0.9% in my experience. The real problem is people who know enough to be > dangerous, but don't know enough to fix the machine properly. Less than 0.9% of the total population even know how to swap parts. Less than 0.0001% know enough to fix the machine properly. From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 4 15:43:57 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406031739.KAA28487@clulw009.amd.com> <1086300665.2338.43.camel@dhcp-249215.mobile.uci.edu> <20040603181307.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1086381836.1984.26.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 18:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > > We used to pay $80 for a box of DSDD Dysan 8" floppies and align the > > disk drives every year with a Dysan alignment diskette and an > > oscilloscope. That's what it took for repeatable reliability. It sucked. > > ... and yet nobody was buying 8" Dysan alignment diskettes and new > shrinkwrapped Dysan floppies at $1 per diskette at VCF! My biggest > market segment was teachers who each wanted ONE diskette to wave in > the air when talking to classes about the days of dinosaurs. No, and you don't see people wearing onions around their neck anymore to ward off illness either. Man, like many others I used to do edits and huge (sic) compiles and library building and linking, HOONK HOONK HOONK for hours, every day, for however long an individual floppy lasted. (1.25MB each, seemed like a lotta space at the time.) THAT ate up floppies and drives! I put solidstate relays on the big AC motors and let them run down after some idle period, that helped. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 15:51:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406042051.NAA29760@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Tom Jennings" > >On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 18:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > We used to pay $80 for a box of DSDD Dysan 8" floppies and align the >> > disk drives every year with a Dysan alignment diskette and an >> > oscilloscope. That's what it took for repeatable reliability. It sucked. >> >> ... and yet nobody was buying 8" Dysan alignment diskettes and new >> shrinkwrapped Dysan floppies at $1 per diskette at VCF! My biggest >> market segment was teachers who each wanted ONE diskette to wave in >> the air when talking to classes about the days of dinosaurs. > >No, and you don't see people wearing onions around their neck anymore to >ward off illness either. > >Man, like many others I used to do edits and huge (sic) compiles and >library building and linking, HOONK HOONK HOONK for hours, every day, >for however long an individual floppy lasted. (1.25MB each, seemed like >a lotta space at the time.) THAT ate up floppies and drives! I put >solidstate relays on the big AC motors and let them run down after some >idle period, that helped. Hi A handy thing to have is a handfull of bearings and a bearing puller. Dwight From jbmcb at hotmail.com Fri Jun 4 09:49:38 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Rackmount MAC Classic Message-ID: I would guess it has something to do with Labview. Labview was originally developed on the Mac (No decent Windows GUI back then, though I think there was an OS/2 version) Labview in a rack-mount would have been pretty sweet at the time. Damn, another Apple clone to add to my wish list.. >From: "Steven Canning" >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Subject: Re: Rackmount MAC Classic >Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2004 20:08:17 -0700 > >On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ram Meenakshisundaram wrote: > >Never seen this before: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4604&item=4134681929& >rd=1 > >A Rackmountable MAC Classic with a VME Backplane..... > >Wow, how cool is that? > >But my question is, "why?" > > >To further the "why" question..... quoting my wise grandfather, "Just >because you 'can' put a diamond in a goat's ass, doesn't mean you should >!" > >regards, SAC > > _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 4 16:16:16 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <200406041616.16442.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 04 June 2004 15:33, Tom Jennings wrote: > PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED > memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. It's quite simple, acutally. : ) Extended memory _extends_ the address space available (eg more than 20 bit address space). Expaneded memory _expands_ the amount of memory you can have in the same amount of address space (aka bank switching). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 4 16:24:31 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Half bad 2716s was:Re: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: "Joe R." "Half bad 2716s was:Re: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 4, 14:14) References: <3.0.6.32.20040604141432.00793e50@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10406042224.ZM5229@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 4, 14:14, Joe R. wrote: > Dwight, > > I have a programmer that's suppsoed to be for the intel 2704 and 2708. > I've never seen any info on the 2704 and I've never seen one but I'm > guessing that it's a half bad 2708. Do you know any more about it? Maybe. If so it must have been identified before the leads were added, because the Intel Data Catalogue 1976 lists both 2704 and 2708 on the same page, and the only difference is pin 22. On a 2708, that's A9, on a 2704 it's always 0V (always 0V, cf 2716/2758 below). No pictures, unfortunately, so no immediate way to tell if the dies look the same. Interestingly, the 1976 book doesn't list anything bigger than a 2708. So a 2708 obviously wasn't a half-bad 2716 (at least, Intel ones weren't). The 1979 Data Catalogue lists the 2704 only as a footnote to the 2708 description, and the 2716 appears only as a single-rail version. I thought they did both, but I must have been thinking of another manufacturer. The 1979 book lists 2716, 2732, and 2578. The 2758 has exactly the same power consumption, access times, programming, and pinout as the 2716, except that pin 19 is A10 on a 2716 and is AR on a 2758. AR is "select reference input voltage". The tables show this as always Vil (ie, 0V) but in one place only, the small print says that it's always 0V *except* for devices labelled "2758 S1865", when it needs to be Vih (+5V). Hmm, that sounds exactly like Dwight's description of a half bad chip to me :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 4 16:54:31 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20040604141926.J22785@newshell.lmi.net> > > mindless jerks called it "HD"/"High Density". "HD"/"High Density" > > is MFM at 500K bits per second data transfer rate on a 360 > > RPM drive. (Which is exactly what 8" DD was) On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Tom Jennings wrote: > Fred, you should stop remembering these things, it's bad for you. > PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED > memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. OK, here's today's dosage of useless obsolete trivia: "EMS"/"Expanded" memory is simply bank switching. Even with only 20 bits of address, almost unlimited memory could be used by switching a little p iece at a time into a gap inthe memory map. Some of the first commercial products werethe JRAM boards from Talltree Systems. Henderson approached me at the West Coast Computer Faire, and asked if I had written any software that used a lot of memory. I thought that he was looking for programmers for a contract job. NO! He was looking for software that NEEDED RAM, in order to peddle RAM cards. But almost nothing used THAT much RAM. So, he developed a laser printer interface (JLASER for Canon CX) that did all of the rasterizing, etc. in the host computer, and THAT took some RAM! Then Lotus, Intel, and Microsoft (excluding Talltree!) developed the "LIM EMS" "Lotus Intel Microsoft Expanded Memory Specification" "XMS"/"Extended" memory is simply normal memory accessed by having more than 20 bits of address bus, and therefore not usable in the Intel Segment:Offset "REAL MODE" memory addressing system. 286 and 386SX supported 24 bits of address (16M), and a real 386 could theoretically be made with 32 bits (4G) "LIMSIM": It was possible in software to make extended memory behave like expanded memory, so that REAL MODE software could still make limited use of extended RAM (for RAMDISK, print spooler, etc.) "HIMEM": People noticed that with 21 bits of physical addressing capability, "REAL MODE" Segment:Offset could overflow to access almost 64K of additional(extended) memory. Then MICROS~1 "invented" it, and declared that to be THE ANSWER (tm?) to all "RAM-CRAM" problems, and started PUSHING HIMEM.SYS. EVERYTHING from MICROS~1 would install it. If you got a MICROS~1 T shirt, it would try to install it. Windoze 3.0 was the last version that could run or be installed without the presence of Extended memory, and therefore was the last version to be runnable on PC or XT. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jun 4 16:50:49 2004 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben franchuk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: Message-ID: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Don Maslin wrote: > Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied. > Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also! But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for the most part. > - don From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 4 17:02:40 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Cromemco memory Message-ID: <10406042302.ZM5256@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Oops, I deleted the original so can't reply directly to it :-( I hope someone has better info than me, because although I think I have a 16KZ-K for my Cromemco, the only manuals I can find are for Godbout, Irvine, Integrand, Tuscan, and a few other memory boards -- none of which I have! All I can find is the entry in the 1978 Cromemco Microcomputer Systems catalogue, which says that it offers expandability to 512K bytes with bank select, has fully-transparent dynamic refresh, operates at 4MHz with no wait states, and costs $495 (fully assembled, tested, and burned in, as the 16KZ-W, is $595). "With bank select each memory board may reside in one or more of the 8 possible memory banks. An 8-position DIP switch on the board is used to select each of the banks in which the board resides. "The active bank or banks of memory are selected under software control. Output port 40H is dedicated to this function. Each of the 8 bits of data of output port 40H are used to turn on or off the corresponding bank of memory. A "1" in the corresponding bit position will turn on the memory bank. A "0" will turn it off. All circuitry required to detect the output of 40H is included on the memory card itself. "Bank select provides a convenient method by which to expand system memory space beyond 64K. Bank select also permits the implementation of time-sharing systems with a minimum of software overhead - up to 8 users can use the system simultaneously with each confined to his own bank of memory." This implies the card can be multiply decoded (to appear more than once). I imagine if you want it to appear from 0000H to 0FFFFH, you turn on the switch in position 1, and turn off the rest (unless you want it to appear elsewhere as well). Similarly to appear from 10000H to 1FFFFH, switch position 2. Although, since it's easier to provide a pullup resistor than a pulldown on TTL, likely "switch on" grounds the line and means a "0". Try it and see! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 4 17:23:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Half bad 2716s was:Re: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <200406042223.PAA29851@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Pete Turnbull" > >On Jun 4, 14:14, Joe R. wrote: >> Dwight, >> >> I have a programmer that's suppsoed to be for the intel 2704 and >2708. >> I've never seen any info on the 2704 and I've never seen one but I'm >> guessing that it's a half bad 2708. Do you know any more about it? > >Maybe. If so it must have been identified before the leads were added, >because the Intel Data Catalogue 1976 lists both 2704 and 2708 on the >same page, and the only difference is pin 22. On a 2708, that's A9, on >a 2704 it's always 0V (always 0V, cf 2716/2758 below). No pictures, >unfortunately, so no immediate way to tell if the dies look the same. > >Interestingly, the 1976 book doesn't list anything bigger than a 2708. > So a 2708 obviously wasn't a half-bad 2716 (at least, Intel ones >weren't). Hi No, I was talking about Intel's 2508( maybe 2758 from your later note ), not the 2708 that was a multi-voltage part. Dwight > >The 1979 Data Catalogue lists the 2704 only as a footnote to the 2708 >description, and the 2716 appears only as a single-rail version. I >thought they did both, but I must have been thinking of another >manufacturer. > >The 1979 book lists 2716, 2732, and 2578. The 2758 has exactly the >same power consumption, access times, programming, and pinout as the >2716, except that pin 19 is A10 on a 2716 and is AR on a 2758. AR is >"select reference input voltage". The tables show this as always Vil >(ie, 0V) but in one place only, the small print says that it's always >0V *except* for devices labelled "2758 S1865", when it needs to be Vih >(+5V). Hmm, that sounds exactly like Dwight's description of a half >bad chip to me :-) > > >-- >Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se Fri Jun 4 13:11:04 2004 From: ulf.andersson at sodra-moinge.se (Ulf Andersson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406041711.i54HBlIS007100@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: Go read e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm for an intro to the worm and http://protovision.textfiles.com/100/tr823.txt for Eugene Spaffords tech report on the little beast. Facts are wonderful. ;) 88 is a better year and both VAXen and SUNs were affected, not to mention a great lot of bewildered sysadmins. /UFO > ----- Earlier messages, mutilated and all ----- Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written > > specifically for them, IIRC. [...] Then Vassilis Prevelakis answered (touch?) > VAXen? How about the Morris worm that flooded the Internet back in 86? > It had a specific buffer overflow (for fingerd) that injected vax > machine code onto the stack. From acme at gbronline.com Fri Jun 4 17:39:24 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org><5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> <20040604133505.T21287@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01f101c44a84$c9fa9e80$5d4f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" > Less than 0.9% of the total population even know how to swap parts. > Less than 0.0001% know enough to fix the machine properly. Complete "systems" are available for about $399. They become "obsolete" after about a year. Why should Joe Consumer take the time and trouble to learn how to repair one? Glen 0/0 TV parts and hard-to-find electronic components: http://www.acme-sales.net From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Jun 4 17:49:36 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? In-Reply-To: <20040604141926.J22785@newshell.lmi.net> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> <20040604141926.J22785@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40C0FC80.4090209@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > "EMS"/"Expanded" memory > is simply bank switching. ... > So, he developed a laser printer interface (JLASER for Canon CX) > that did all of the rasterizing, etc. in the host computer, > and THAT took some RAM! I used a JLASER card for my first explorations of PostScript, way back in 1987. I worked for a small software house called London Software Studio, and we wrote presentation graphics software. One of our plans was to add a postscript hard-copy option, so that users could make high-quality printouts and OHP transparencies. I still have the PostScript code that I wrote on that thing, using a Victor 286 machine as the host. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 4 18:00:33 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy@earthlink.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies Message-ID: <040604156.57631@webbox.com> from someone who has a hard type forgetting things like that... extended was memory past 1meg and expamded was a memory slot inside the 1meg space sigh best regards, Steve Thatcher >--- Original Message --- >From: Tom Jennings >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Date: 6/4/04 3:33:57 PM > On Thu, 2004-06-03 at 17:03, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> But, then, when density was finally increased, "quad density" >> and "super density" were already used up as names, so the >> mindless jerks called it "HD"/"High Density". "HD"/"High Density" >> is MFM at 500K bits per second data transfer rate on a 360 >> RPM drive. (Which is exactly what 8" DD was) > >Fred, you should stop remembering these things, it's bad for you. > > >PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED >memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 4 18:05:48 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Anyone have a spare PC8300 Arrow triangle key? Message-ID: I just recovered my PC8300 from my brothers and it is missing one all four are the same, you just orient them differently Before anyone cries "elder laptop abuse" my 83000 was missing the key when I got it. Thanks! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 18:02:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Proposal: Oldware database In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at Jun 4, 4 11:34:25 am Message-ID: > 2) package was at one time sold in the normal software marketplace > (i.e. not shareware/freeware/etc since inception) Actually, I am not sure I'd exclude originally-free programs, provided they're still available somewhere. Obviously catalogue them as such, though. If, say, I have a foo123 and am looking for a word processor program for it, a freeware one might be OK, It would almost certainly be better than nothing. Sometimes finding _any_ software is useful (e.g. if you want to demonstrate the machine). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 18:05:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" In-Reply-To: <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Jun 4, 4 01:33:57 pm Message-ID: > PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED > memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. Oh that one's easy... exPanded memory is the Paged one. And classic computer people surely do have to remember this (heck, I have expanded memory on my HP150...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 17:45:13 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Computer flooring/flooding/water in computer rooms In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040604081217.070d6d18@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Jun 4, 4 08:30:27 am Message-ID: > When we did, found it was a 486 machine where the battery backed CMOS ram > was (had been) baked up by an external battery plugged into the > board. This had been stuck to the back panel of the box. It had > exploded! Possibly connected to the board backwards? The force of the Most likely it had tried to recharage a non-rechargeable battery. Lithium cells in particular will explode quite violently if you try to recharge them... Of course a look at the schematics would have told you whether the system tried to recharge the battery, but have you ever tried to get schematics to a PC? But that's another rant... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 4 17:47:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 4, 4 11:11:44 am Message-ID: > > But look what we have: Winblows XP & MacOS. Computers on training wheels, > > and how many people actually know how to fix the damn things? 2% of the > > population? Tops? > 0.9% in my experience. The real problem is people who know enough to be > dangerous, but don't know enough to fix the machine properly. To fix a computer (or anything else) properly, you have to know how it should work. And that means you'd better have seen the schematics and source listings... I would guess the number of people who can actually fix a computer (any computer...) can be counted on the fingers of both hands... -tony From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 4 19:05:47 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <200406041616.16442.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <20040603163912.P95145@newshell.lmi.net> <1086381236.1984.15.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> <200406041616.16442.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1086393946.2413.31.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 14:16, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 04 June 2004 15:33, Tom Jennings wrote: > > PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED > > memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. > > It's quite simple, acutally. : ) > > Extended memory _extends_ the address space available (eg more than 20 > bit address space). Expaneded memory _expands_ the amount of memory > you can have in the same amount of address space (aka bank switching). You're kidding, right?! I'm getting a headache now, please stop hurting me! It's like the left-hand rule. I remember the rule, only I forgot what it's for. Or was it the right-hand rule... current, flux, well it's one or the other, eh? From rdd at rddavis.org Fri Jun 4 19:15:31 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <01f101c44a84$c9fa9e80$5d4f0945@thegoodw> References: <20040604133505.T21287@newshell.lmi.net> <01f101c44a84$c9fa9e80$5d4f0945@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20040605001531.GA21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Glen Goodwin, from writings of Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 06:39:24PM -0400: > Complete "systems" are available for about $399. They become "obsolete" > after about a year. Why should Joe Consumer take the time and trouble to > learn how to repair one? Because it's less wasteful. Perhaps the problem is plentiful and inexpensive PCs for foolish and wasteful throwaway societies. If the idiots running computer companies would start charging several thousand dollars for them again, design them to be more repairable and upgradeable with less waste, then more would end up being repaired. If schematics, theories of operation, commented firmware sources, etc. were easily obtainable, more proper repairs would be made as well. More parts need to be re-used instead of dumped into landfills; repairing rather than replacing would help with this problem. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 4 19:55:25 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <1086393946.2413.31.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <200406041616.16442.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1086393946.2413.31.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <200406041955.25042.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 04 June 2004 19:05, Tom Jennings wrote: > On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 14:16, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Extended memory _extends_ the address space available (eg more than > > 20 bit address space). Expaneded memory _expands_ the amount of > > memory you can have in the same amount of address space (aka bank > > switching). > > You're kidding, right?! > > I'm getting a headache now, please stop hurting me! Heh sorry. I wasn't joking... > It's like the left-hand rule. I remember the rule, only I forgot what > it's for. Or was it the right-hand rule... current, flux, well it's > one or the other, eh? Just like "all the world's a VAX," "everyone is right handed." Right hand rule, and it relates current and flux lines. Since you (hopefully) know that current usually doesn't flow in loops around wires, it should be obvious what it relates. : ) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 4 18:05:02 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000001c44a9f$4aaaf5b0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben franchuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 5:50 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > Don Maslin wrote: > > > Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied. > > Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also! > > > But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for > the most part. > > > - don > > Was beer the drink of the ages? I think the alcohol content of fermented drinks made them cleaner then any other source of liquid. Lead takes a while to accumulate in your system, and only the wealthy had plumbing. Considering how young people died back in the roman times and earlier lead in their water didn't matter. From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 4 20:59:21 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040604133505.T21287@newshell.lmi.net> <01f101c44a84$c9fa9e80$5d4f0945@thegoodw> <20040605001531.GA21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <002701c44aa0$b7e27170$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: "Glen Goodwin" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 8:15 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > Quothe Glen Goodwin, from writings of Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 06:39:24PM -0400: > > Complete "systems" are available for about $399. They become "obsolete" > > after about a year. Why should Joe Consumer take the time and trouble to > > learn how to repair one? > > Because it's less wasteful. Perhaps the problem is plentiful and > inexpensive PCs for foolish and wasteful throwaway societies. If the > idiots running computer companies would start charging several > thousand dollars for them again, design them to be more repairable and > upgradeable with less waste, then more would end up being repaired. > If schematics, theories of operation, commented firmware sources, > etc. were easily obtainable, more proper repairs would be made as > well. More parts need to be re-used instead of dumped into landfills; > repairing rather than replacing would help with this problem. > > -- > Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > I can't think of any electronic devices made today that are repairable. Personally the way electronics evolve I would rather buy a new DVD player every 3 years for $60 then buy one for $500 and keep it even when its obsolete. Its all about the money. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 4 08:25:15 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040604132515.GA7804@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 06:31:35AM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written > > specifically for them, IIRC. > > I think you don't recall correctly, or perhaps you never heard of the > Morris worm. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I'm fairly > sure one of its spreading mechanisms involved a VAX machine-language > grappling hook. It had two "hooks" - one for VAX, one for Sun But a worm is not a virus. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 04-Jun-2004 13:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -75.3 F (-59.6 C) Windchill -103 F (-75 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.7 kts Grid 135 Barometer 662.3 mb (11302. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 4 21:25:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <002701c44aa0$b7e27170$0500fea9@game> References: <20040604133505.T21287@newshell.lmi.net> <01f101c44a84$c9fa9e80$5d4f0945@thegoodw> <20040605001531.GA21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <002701c44aa0$b7e27170$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200406050235.WAA11891@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I can't think of any electronic devices made today that are > repairable. I can - or else, I can't think of any that ever were. The only question is what level the FRU is at. In the days of early (firebottle) consumer electronics, swapping out a tube with a blown filament was a routine repair for many, though many were afraid to try it; replacing something else - say, a fried resistor - was the province of repair shops and the rare end-user. The valves would be considered FRUs in today's terminology, the resistors not. Repairing a defective tube was out of the question for almost everyone. Today, we have exactly the same situation in computers, except that the "tubes" are now called things like "PCI cards" and the "resistors" are things like power supplies and motherboards. (There are numerous differences, of course, such as the number of "tubes" and "resistors" in a typical computer is rather different, but I believe the principle is basically valid.) For most people, repairing a PCI NIC with a defective transceiver chip is as out of the question as repairing a valve with two grid accidentally shorted together would have been in the heyday of valve electronics. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 4 21:35:49 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040604132515.GA7804@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040604132515.GA7804@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406050239.WAA11915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written >>> specifically for them, IIRC. >> [...] the Morris worm [...] > It had two "hooks" - one for VAX, one for Sun > But a worm is not a virus. What's the difference? I see no essential difference between a "virus" that travels by stack-smashing an unpatched IIS and a "worm" that travels by stack-smashing an unpatched fingerd. If you mean to argue that "virus" is an incorrect term for current Windows malware for which the term is commonly used but which travels from machine to machine other than by attaching itself to existing executables, I may well agree with you. But that's not what it sounded as though you're trying to say; that's not only relevant to the point at hand but also says that a lot of the current "virus" malware doesn't deserve the name. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 4 21:57:05 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406050239.WAA11915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040604132515.GA7804@bos7.spole.gov> <200406050239.WAA11915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040605025705.GA32008@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 10:35:49PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > But a worm is not a virus. > > What's the difference? > > I see no essential difference between a "virus" that travels by > stack-smashing an unpatched IIS and a "worm" that travels by > stack-smashing an unpatched fingerd. Worms propagate specifically by travelling over networks. Viruses (not 'virii' - learn Latin to know why) can use a network to get from machine to machine, but they require some level, however minimal, of human assistance to load. If I am running a machine with an IIS vulnerability or a sendmail vulnerability or whatever, listening to some port on the 'net, a worm can exploit it without me even being near the machine. The same machine can be sent a million copies of a "virus" by e-mail, but until I open these files with a vulnerable app (Outlook, etc.), my machine is not running any of the malicious code (i.e., infected). Viruses use to spread primarily through infected files by booting infected disks. Those are not worms. The lines can be blurry, especially when you inject additional risks like trojan horses, but those are, essentially, the salient distinctions. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 05-Jun-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82.7 F (-63.7 C) Windchill -124.9 F (-87.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.7 kts Grid 118 Barometer 663.6 mb (11249. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From sastevens at earthlink.net Fri Jun 4 22:30:21 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: 486 dies terrible death In-Reply-To: <1086219629.1960.22.camel@dhcp-249109.mobile.uci.edu> References: <1086219629.1960.22.camel@dhcp-249109.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <20040604223021.325ff1d0.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 16:40:29 -0700 Tom Jennings wrote: > > On Wed, 2004-06-02 at 11:47, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > My voicemail PC died a pretty terrible death this morning. ... > > The power supply fan went bad on it a while ago (over a year, surely > > longer) and I never bothered replacing it > > Umm, power supply fans aren't optional. If the top of the box is hot > you can be sure some hot components inside the box are 40 - 100 > degrees hotter, the top of the box is a low average temp of the junk > inside! > I once noticed that the Power Supply fan in my bosses' computer had died. The way I noticed was that the CD-ROM disc she pulled out of her machine and handed me was hot. From sastevens at earthlink.net Fri Jun 4 22:51:27 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406050235.WAA11891@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040604133505.T21287@newshell.lmi.net> <01f101c44a84$c9fa9e80$5d4f0945@thegoodw> <20040605001531.GA21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <002701c44aa0$b7e27170$0500fea9@game> <200406050235.WAA11891@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040604225127.637af847.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 22:25:09 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > > I can't think of any electronic devices made today that are > > repairable. > > I can - or else, I can't think of any that ever were. > > The only question is what level the FRU is at. In the days of early > (firebottle) consumer electronics, swapping out a tube with a blown > filament was a routine repair for many, though many were afraid to try > it; replacing something else - say, a fried resistor - was the > province of repair shops and the rare end-user. The valves would be > considered FRUs in today's terminology, the resistors not. Repairing > a defective tube was out of the question for almost everyone. > > Today, we have exactly the same situation in computers, except that > the"tubes" are now called things like "PCI cards" and the "resistors" > are things like power supplies and motherboards. (There are numerous > differences, of course, such as the number of "tubes" and "resistors" > in a typical computer is rather different, but I believe the principle > is basically valid.) For most people, repairing a PCI NIC with a > defective transceiver chip is as out of the question as repairing a > valve with two grid accidentally shorted together would have been in > the heyday of valve electronics. > Unless I have a compelling and immediate need for a particular piece of electronic equipment, I would always rather receive it in a non-working state. By acquiring it that way, I: 1. Get it for dirt cheap, if not for free. 2. Get to take it apart immediately and fool with the innards, and fix it, and get it back up and running. I am a little bit less enthusiastic these days about non-working consumer-electronics devices than I used to be, but when I was younger, I considered it fun to troubleshoot bad Television sets. When I was in tech school I got a lot of troubleshooting practice buying tons of TV sets at the thrift store. The biggest problem at the time was getting rid of the working TV sets that resulted from the process. I'd do things like reverse the deflection coils then give them away (with mirror-image reversed displays) to friends. With the quality of programming on Television, for me a non-working set is like an uncompleted crossword puzzle. A working set is just an annoyance, a 'filled out' book of crossword puzzles to be disposed of. The new challange with computers is to find the obscure unknown machines, then try to bring them up, and find operating system software. Certainly more interesting that old Tee Vee sets. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 4 23:17:59 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605025705.GA32008@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040603191849.GB18314@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20040604002558.03934c98@mail.30below.com> <200406041033.GAA08379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040604132515.GA7804@bos7.spole.gov> <200406050239.WAA11915@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040605025705.GA32008@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406050429.AAA22014@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> But a worm is not a virus. >> What's the difference? > Worms propagate specifically by travelling over networks. Viruses > (not 'virii' - learn Latin to know why) Actually, given the hackish tendency to use `inappropriate' plural forms (VAXen, cabeese, polygoose), I find its surface Latinity and deep non-Latinity to be reasons to use, not reasons to avoid, "viri" and "virii". > can use a network to get from machine to machine, but they require > some level, however minimal, of human assistance to load. But where does "human assistance" end? Presumably "installing $VULNERABLE_SOFTWARE" (say, unpatched IIS) doesn't count, but, say, clicking on a vector email in Outlook does. So what about setting Outlook up to check mail every five minutes (and auto-display the first new mail when there is new mail)? What about turning on javascript support in $WEB_BROWSER? What about setting up a procmail rule to run email to a certain address through an autoresponder program, when the autoresponder in question has a bug that allows carefully crafted messages to execute arbitrary code? What about installing an "upgrade" that reopens an old hole? I guess it just seems to me like a pointless distinction, a difference that makes no difference. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 5 02:22:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator Message-ID: Whilst thrifting for Atari joysticks today, I came across a barely interesting looking desk calculator and a hunch compelled me to take a chance on it. It is the Unicom 141P made by Unicom Systems, Inc. The label indicates, "Made in Japan". "Hmmm...Unicom...Unicom...Japan..." It sounded familiar. Of course I was thinking "Busicom", which is the name of the Japanese company that ordered the development of what became the 4004 for a new calculator they were designing. But I couldn't quite remember the name. At $5, I figured it was worth taking a chance. It was, as I mentioned, a barely interesting desktop calculator, so worst case it would serve as a good example of a 1970s desktop calculator (I was pretty certain it was circa 1970s). So I just opened it up and it's got an Intel 4004 inside! Unfortunately, I'm not able to test it out because it requires a funky squarish three prong power cord. I'll have to look around and see if I can find one. There's only one (out of two) relevant Google results, that being this guy's website: http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/index.html With this calculator listed on his "Alphabetic catalog of Electronic Calculators" list. http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/catalog_U.asc.htm Might anyone (Rick Bensene?) have any info about this calculator? Rick's site lists the Busicom 141 in his wanted section: http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/wanted.html#WANTED-BUSICOM Is this in fact a re-badged Busicom? Or just coincidence? Rick's description indicates that the Busicom 141 is based on discrete diode/transistor logic with a Nixie tube display, whereas this one has a printing mechanism only. In searching for info, I came across another interesting website here: http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber/cmhistory.htm ...with this interesting article: http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber/e_walther.htm Oddly enough (perhaps), this represents the only 4004-based computing device in my archive. I'm relatively stoked ;) (And I haven't been thus about a new find in a long time...) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hansp at citem.org Sat Jun 5 03:06:20 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Interesting video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C17EFC.1060204@citem.org> While the new OQO handheld computer will not be on-topic for another 10 years the promotional video they are showing on their web site : http://www.oqo.com/hardware/video/ has a very interesting introduction sequence which shows many of our favorite machines. -- Hans P From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 5 03:53:18 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Half bad 2716s was:Re: 8" hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: "Dwight K. Elvey" "Re: Half bad 2716s was:Re: 8" hard sectored floppies" (Jun 4, 15:23) References: <200406042223.PAA29851@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <10406050953.ZM5664@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 4, 15:23, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > No, I was talking about Intel's 2508( maybe 2758 from your later > note ), not the 2708 that was a multi-voltage part. I know; Joe asked about the 2704 and 2708, my note about the 2716 was just a comment. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From bernd at kopriva.de Sat Jun 5 04:25:03 2004 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Xerox workstation for sale In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040605093955.472B8D3DD@linux.local> That seems to be really interesting stuff ! Unfortunately, i neither have the space for that machine nor the money to get that one paid (and shipped !!) ... ... but as i searched on infomation, i found a reference to a Xerox Dlily board, which seems to fit into an old ISA machine, at least, this one should not lead to space problems :-) Is there any information available on that one ? Bernd On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 11:57:01 +0100, Rodrigo Ventura wrote: > >Hello everyone. > >Several years ago I got a Xerox workstation from a junkyard. I believe >the model is a Daybreak. At that time I got it partially booting, >using some homebrew interfacing hardware. > >At the meantime I got married, and I have to get rid of the thing >(lack of space and wife's interest ;). However, I don't want it teared >apart for recycling. I want it preserved. Therefore, I'm puting it to >sale! > >I live in Lisbon, Portugal (EU). > >I have some photos online at the following URL: >http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/library/gallery/Xeroxworkstation > >I also have three peripherals: two tape streamers and one 5 1/4 floppy >drive. > >Since it has no keyboard, mouse or monitor, I built interfaces to >connect it to a VGA monitor, and to a PC. I can include the stuff I >did with the machine. > >Cheers, > >Rodrigo Ventura > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and PhD Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 > > From philk1a at sdccu.net Fri Jun 4 18:13:49 2004 From: philk1a at sdccu.net (Phil Kiernan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: 122A scope Message-ID: <40C1022D.2090908@sdccu.net> Noticed an old message concerning you finding a HP 122A Scope with manual. Any chance you still have manual ( I have the scope) if so any chance you would sell a copy of manual ? Thanks Phil From bob at applegate.org Fri Jun 4 18:20:04 2004 From: bob at applegate.org (Bob Applegate) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:15 2005 Subject: Looking for Pittman's Tiny Basic Message-ID: <000801c44a8a$7b162e50$3e01a8c0@Sui> Tom offered to send me a paper tape if I could read it. I asked on this list and got a lot of offers to help... thanks to everyone who wanted to help! Today I got email from Tom again. He moved several years ago, and just went to look for the tapes. The box labeled TINY BASIC had paper tapes, but not for Tiny. He's optimistic that he might still have the original tapes somewhere and he plans on looking for them. The only version he found so far has been for the 1802. In the mean time, if anyone on the list has any version of Tom's TB, he might appreciate getting copies, even if it's just the binaries. I'm desperately seeking the 6502 version, so hopefully someone can get a copy to Tom. He must have sold quite a few copies, considering they were originally $5 each ($5 for software? Amazing!). Hopefully someone has some old copies laying around. Bob From dave04a at dunfield.com Sat Jun 5 07:00:19 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Paging Mike Stein in Toronto Message-ID: <200406051200.i55C0Jhc005689@huey.classiccmp.org> Still trying to reach Mike Stein in Toronto. (regarding Cromemco information). Please drop me a line at the address in my sig. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From allain at panix.com Sat Jun 5 08:38:44 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Interesting video References: <40C17EFC.1060204@citem.org> Message-ID: <005101c44b02$6d91b560$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > http://www.oqo.com/hardware/video/ > has a very interesting introduction sequence > which shows many of our favorite machines. Seconded. Boy they sure know how to play to This audience.. John A. From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 5 09:47:24 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Interesting video References: <40C17EFC.1060204@citem.org> Message-ID: <007801c44b0c$0544c420$66406b43@66067007> Great video thanks for sharing. :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hans B PUFAL" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 3:06 AM Subject: Interesting video > While the new OQO handheld computer will not be on-topic for another 10 > years the > promotional video they are showing on their web site : > http://www.oqo.com/hardware/video/ > has a very interesting introduction sequence which shows many of our > favorite machines. > > -- Hans P > > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 5 10:12:01 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Interesting video In-Reply-To: <40C17EFC.1060204@citem.org> References: <40C17EFC.1060204@citem.org> Message-ID: Careful frame by frame viewing shows a computer I had once, and wish I had again.. The Televideo (mumble model cuz I forgot) CGA+10mb IBM AT Or the next one, Televideo portable... :^) On Jun 5, 2004, at 1:06 AM, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > While the new OQO handheld computer will not be on-topic for another > 10 years the > promotional video they are showing on their web site : > http://www.oqo.com/hardware/video/ > has a very interesting introduction sequence which shows many of our > favorite machines. > > -- Hans P > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 5 10:56:57 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Need Heathkit Cable Message-ID: <009901c44b15$bc3060a0$66406b43@66067007> Anyone have a extra serial I/O cable for the H9 video terminal that connects to the H8? Thanks From sastevens at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 11:18:54 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Hero remote for pver $500 In-Reply-To: <006501c44a59$2cbb1760$a7406b43@66067007> References: <006501c44a59$2cbb1760$a7406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <20040605111854.30054e3d.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 12:27:10 -0500 "Keys" wrote: > How can a remote control be worth over $500? > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19198&item=5900569057 Unbuilt Heathkits are kind of a cult item. I kind of wonder if they'll ever be built, since they appear to be worth so much more unassembled these days. From rdd at rddavis.org Sat Jun 5 11:36:33 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: References: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <20040605163633.GF21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Don Maslin, from writings of Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 01:02:18PM -0700: > Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied. > Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also! Some buildings---and houses, which are far from being ancient, still exist with water pipes containing lead. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 5 11:52:53 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <002701c44aa0$b7e27170$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > I can't think of any electronic devices made today that are repairable. > Personally the way electronics evolve I would rather buy a new DVD player > every 3 years for $60 then buy one for $500 and keep it even when its > obsolete. Its all about the money. To say nothing of the evolution of new (sometimes cool or useful) features... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rickb at bensene.com Sat Jun 5 13:01:47 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator References: Message-ID: <002101c44b27$2b9c2e40$7966a8c0@wrickben02> Hi, Sellam (and all), Unicom was a company that was started up as a spinoff of IC maker American Microsystems (AMI). There's little out there about the history of the company in its early days, but it's possible that Unicom initially started out simply OEMing machines from Busicom, until they had developed their own chips. Busicom for a time had an exclusive on the 4004 as the result of their joint effort with Intel to develop a reconfigurable general purpose calculator chipset, which ended up morphing into a microprocessor. I do know that Busicom did OEM their machines to a number of different marketers of early electronic calculators, and perhaps Unicom was one of them. Busicom's machine with the 4004 was the 141PF (they weren't shy about recycling model numbers, as the 141 was a lower-cost version of Busicom's first machine, the 162, which was indeed a discrete transistor machine). The 141PF was a printing only machine. Looking at patent information, the architecture of the design was such that it could be adapted (part of the whole idea that spurred the development of the 4004 in the first place) to use a display rather than a printer. So, my guess (and it's just that at this point) is that the machine you have is an adaptation of the original 141PF design, done either by Busicom either on their own, or under contract to Unicom, which was sold under the Unicom brand name in North America. Later, AMI sold off the Unicom division to Rockwell, and for a while, Rockwell sold handheld calculators under this brand, then abandoned the Unicom brand and sold their machines (using their own chips) under the Rockwell brand, as well as through other OEMs. In any case, this is an AWESOME find! I want pix! I don't blame you for being stoked about this one. Hope that you can get it running! Regards, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ohh at drizzle.com Sat Jun 5 13:02:27 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Interesting video In-Reply-To: <40C17EFC.1060204@citem.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > While the new OQO handheld computer will not be on-topic for another 10 > years the > promotional video they are showing on their web site : > http://www.oqo.com/hardware/video/ > has a very interesting introduction sequence which shows many of our > favorite machines. I also rather liked the blurb they had stuck in their HTML code: "for those who view the source, we salute you." Sounds like people with their hearts in the right place. :) (O'course, the embedded comment about IE's lack of usefulness was a nice indicator as well. ) -O.- From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 5 13:19:26 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040605141926.008599a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went to a little hamfest today. Brought back another SWTPC Function Generator and two OLD or homemade (or both?) vacuum tubes. These things are weird! Other finds include the main unit for a Pace MBT desoldering station (no handpiece or tips :-(. Also a HP 12C calculator and NOS military lead acid battery from 1953. It's about 2" square and about 5" tall and is made of clear plastic so everything is readily visible. It's never had acid put into it and has never been used. It's sort of cute and it makes an interesting show and tell piece. Pictures later. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 5 13:32:24 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605163633.GF21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:36 PM 6/5/04 -0400, you wrote: >Quothe Don Maslin, from writings of Fri, Jun 04, 2004 at 01:02:18PM -0700: >> Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied. >> Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also! > >Some buildings---and houses, which are far from being ancient, still >exist with water pipes containing lead. > Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 5 13:40:50 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: <002101c44b27$2b9c2e40$7966a8c0@wrickben02> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040605144050.009bbd20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:01 AM 6/5/04 -0700, Rick Bensene wrote: >Hi, Sellam (and all), > >Unicom was a company that was started up as a spinoff of IC maker American >Microsystems (AMI). >There's little out there about the history of the company in its early days, >but it's possible that Unicom >initially started out simply OEMing machines from Busicom, until they had >developed their own chips. >Busicom for a time had an exclusive on the 4004 as the result of their joint >effort with Intel to develop a Yes, "for a time" is correct. But after Intel had designed the 4004 but before they started delivery of them to Busicom, Busicom wanted to re-negotiate the price for the 4004. One of the more insightful engineers at Intel said OK but insisted that they (Intel) in turn get Busicom to drop their exclusive rights to the 4004. The two companies meet and agreed to both items and everybody went away happy. That was a very smart move on Intel's part and the rest, as they say, is history. Joe >reconfigurable general purpose calculator chipset, which ended up morphing >into a microprocessor. >I do know that Busicom did OEM their machines to a number of different >marketers of early electronic >calculators, and perhaps Unicom was one of them. Busicom's machine with >the 4004 was the 141PF >(they weren't shy about recycling model numbers, as the 141 was a lower-cost >version of Busicom's first machine, >the 162, which was indeed a discrete transistor machine). The 141PF was a >printing only machine. >Looking at patent information, the architecture of the design was such that >it could be adapted (part of >the whole idea that spurred the development of the 4004 in the first place) >to use a display rather than a printer. >So, my guess (and it's just that at this point) is that the machine you have >is an adaptation of the original 141PF >design, done either by Busicom either on their own, or under contract to >Unicom, which was sold under the Unicom >brand name in North America. Later, AMI sold off the Unicom division to >Rockwell, and for a while, Rockwell >sold handheld calculators under this brand, then abandoned the Unicom brand >and sold their machines (using their own chips) >under the Rockwell brand, as well as through other OEMs. > >In any case, this is an AWESOME find! I want pix! > >I don't blame you for being stoked about this one. Hope that you can get >it running! > >Regards, >Rick Bensene >The Old Calculator Web Museum >http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From rds1226 at sh163.net Sat Jun 5 06:55:27 2004 From: rds1226 at sh163.net (Dongsheng Ruan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Free stuff, mostly Apple II related Message-ID: <001601c44af4$01c9e220$0100a8c0@cqrds> SGksDQoNCiAgIEkgY2FtZSBhY3Jvc3MgeW91ciBtZXNzYWdlIGF0IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuY2xhc3Np Y2NtcC5vcmcvcGlwZXJtYWlsL2NjdGVjaC8yMDAzLURlY2VtYmVyLzAyMzY4NC5odG1sLiBJIGFt IG5vdCBzdXJlIHdoZXRoZXIgdGhlc2UgZnJlZSBzdHVmZiBhcmUgc3RpbGwgYXZhaWxhYmxlLiBJ ZiB0aGV5IGFyZSwgY2FuIEkgaGF2ZSB0aGUgIjUuIE0wNDg3IC0gQXBwbGUgS2V5Ym9hcmQgSUkg KEFEQikiID8NCg0KVGhhbmtzIQ0KDQpEb25nc2hlbmc= From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 5 13:51:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: need schematics for SWTPC function generator Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040605145101.008de100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Does anyone know where I can find a schematic of other docs for the SWTPC function generator? Mine has problems. Joe From spc at conman.org Sat Jun 5 14:24:28 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 04, 2004 01:36:55 PM Message-ID: <20040605192428.BECCE10B2B56@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great William Donzelli once stated: > > > I think you don't recall correctly, or perhaps you never heard of the > > Morris worm. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I'm fairly > > sure one of its spreading mechanisms involved a VAX machine-language > > grappling hook. > > I would think the reason that the older machines do not have worms and > virus (generally) is that ciding them back then was simply not > in style. 20 years ago, if a worm was released for VMS, would it make the > news? Would anyone outside of a few thousand sysadmins really care? What > glory would there be for the hacker? Not much... The Morris worm was 16 years ago, and it *did* make the national news here in the US (I remember my Mom mentioning it), and it *only* affected about 10% of the Internet at the time. -spc (I don't recall if the university I attended at the time was hit with it or not ... ) From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Sat Jun 5 14:28:14 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Three lead neon lamps Message-ID: <40C21ECE.4010504@vzavenue.net> I'm looking for a source for several three lead neon lamps. I purchased a Sgi Galileo video analog breakout box and two neon lamps on the PC board are broken. There are no makings on the lamps. I assume they are some kind of protective device. I've been browsing several lamps sites and have only seen two lead lamps. James From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 5 14:41:05 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <001601c44b35$0a6c34f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead > pipes are only used for drainage and not for incoming water. > I don't think lead pipes have been used for incoming water > for AT LEAST 150 years. Here in the UK, lead pipes were used for incoming water until relatively recently (for values of recently in the region of "but not in the last three or four decades or so"). My parent's house (built in the 1950s I believe) originally had an incoming supply via a lead pipe. These days it's all plastic (until either the water board external stop-cock or the under-the-kitchen-sink stopcock). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sat Jun 5 15:07:30 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040605141926.008599a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040605210408.024a4ef8@pop.freeserve.net> At 14:19 05/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: > I went to a little hamfest today. >[snip] > NOS military lead >acid battery from 1953. It's about 2" square and about 5" tall and is made >of clear plastic so everything is readily visible. It's never had acid put >into it and has never been used. It's sort of cute and it makes an >interesting show and tell piece. Pictures later. My dad had (probably still has, knowing him) a big camera flash unit that features one of these batteries. Big unit the size of a handbag with a shoulder strap, with the accumulator in this, and flash gun on the end of a spiral cord. I was always fascinated with it as a kid, so I guess that places it earlier than the '70s... Rob > Joe From allain at panix.com Sat Jun 5 16:02:36 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Pressed Particle Board Shelving {*non*}Warning References: <40B5701E.5050001@hotmail.com> <20040527222307.GD1072@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <001501c44b40$cbc51ee0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> To those of you who use the mentioned shelving and are interested, I have some 18"x36" sheets from some 5 shelf racks, used as 3 shelf ones. Available, Free. So are the metal crosspieces, but they are less universally interchangeable. NYC/Boston metroplex John A. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 5 16:11:59 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040605210408.024a4ef8@pop.freeserve.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20040605141926.008599a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040605171159.008df640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:07 PM 6/5/04 +0100, Rob wrote: >At 14:19 05/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >> I went to a little hamfest today. >>[snip] >> NOS military lead >>acid battery from 1953. It's about 2" square and about 5" tall and is made >>of clear plastic so everything is readily visible. It's never had acid put >>into it and has never been used. It's sort of cute and it makes an >>interesting show and tell piece. Pictures later. > >My dad had (probably still has, knowing him) a big camera flash unit that >features one of these batteries. Big unit the size of a handbag with a >shoulder strap, with the accumulator in this, and flash gun on the end of a >spiral cord. I was always fascinated with it as a kid, so I guess that >places it earlier than the '70s... My dad was just over visiting and I showed it to him. He says that he has a similar one that was made in WW-II. He doesn't know what he's saving his for either. He just says that it looked neat. I guess that I came by being a pack rat honestly :-/ Joe From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jun 5 16:27:00 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Free stuff, mostly Apple II related In-Reply-To: <001601c44af4$01c9e220$0100a8c0@cqrds> Message-ID: <20040605212700.80581.qmail@web40904.mail.yahoo.com> Sorry, most if not all of the free stuff is gone. I still have a stack of Apple manuals, though. Steve. --- Dongsheng Ruan wrote: > Hi, > > I came across your message at > http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-December/023684.html. > I am not sure whether these free stuff are still > available. If they are, can I have the "5. M0487 - > Apple Keyboard II (ADB)" ? > > Thanks! > > Dongsheng __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From anheier at owt.com Sat Jun 5 15:19:33 2004 From: anheier at owt.com (Norm and Beth Anheier) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Unibus DEC board FS- 2 left In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It seems I still have these two boards available. I'll take $20 for the pair plus shipping. M7258- LP11/LS11 interface M7454- TU80 unibus interface Thanks Norm ------ On Jun 2, 2004, at 8:47 PM, Norm and Beth Anheier wrote: > I need to raise some cash for bike parts. I have the following unibus > boards for sale. They are in reasonable shape, but I have no way of > testing them. I would like $15 each. Paypal works well for me. > Offers for complete set will be considered. > List: > > M7859- KY11-LB 11/34 console interface card > M7258- LP11/LS11 interface > M9313- unibus exerciser & terminator > M7800- Async transmitter- RSVR, KL11 > M7454- TU80 unibus interface > 2 each M8256- RX211 unibus RX02 interface > misc Translation Technology Inc card > > Thanks Norm > From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 18:02:14 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Three lead neon lamps Message-ID: <15375909.1086476534933.JavaMail.root@louie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi James, look here http://www.electronicsurplus.com/commerce/catalog/spcategory.jsp?category_id=1771&czuid=1084167161619 they would not be considered lamps. Look further under "gas surge suppressor" best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: James Rice Sent: Jun 5, 2004 3:28 PM To: "cctalk@classiccmp" Subject: Three lead neon lamps I'm looking for a source for several three lead neon lamps. I purchased a Sgi Galileo video analog breakout box and two neon lamps on the PC board are broken. There are no makings on the lamps. I assume they are some kind of protective device. I've been browsing several lamps sites and have only seen two lead lamps. James From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:26:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Need Heathkit Cable In-Reply-To: <009901c44b15$bc3060a0$66406b43@66067007> from "Keys" at Jun 5, 4 10:56:57 am Message-ID: > > Anyone have a extra serial I/O cable for the H9 video terminal that connects > to the H8? Thanks Some enterprising and clueful person should set up a 'classic computer cable creation company' :-). Specify the connectors and the wirelist (or maybe just the devides you want it to link), and you get a reproduction cable. I guess the problem is that it could be quite expensive... When I do HP calculator repairs (the one thing I occassionaly do get paid for), I charge a very low rate per hour, but still seem to end up charging close to the value of the machine in some cases (a couple of machines I fixed for myself recently -- an HP67 and HP97, would have totalled over \pounds 1000 for labour if they'd been chargeable repairs...) Remmeber me if you do set up such a company :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:28:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Hero remote for pver $500 In-Reply-To: <20040605111854.30054e3d.sastevens@earthlink.net> from "Scott Stevens" at Jun 5, 4 11:18:54 am Message-ID: > Unbuilt Heathkits are kind of a cult item. > > I kind of wonder if they'll ever be built, since they appear to be worth > so much more unassembled these days. My guess is that most of them are bought by people who care about things like the original packaging, and will never get built. A great pity, they were intended to be built, and buildign them is fun. All I can say is that if I ever got an unassembled Heathkit, the first thing I'd do is read the manual, the second thing I'd do is build it! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:39:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 5, 4 09:52:53 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > I can't think of any electronic devices made today that are repairable. > > Personally the way electronics evolve I would rather buy a new DVD player > > every 3 years for $60 then buy one for $500 and keep it even when its > > obsolete. Its all about the money. > > To say nothing of the evolution of new (sometimes cool or useful) > features... I really can't agree with you. If we froget the environmental reason (it's clearly better to repair than replace something), and we forget the moral reason that I object to owning something I can't fix (and so far this has _not_ happened -- I'll fix anything I own or am likely to own!), there's another more important point... Are you sure you can get a new DVD player in 3 years time (OK, in 10 years time, but that's only 3-new-players in the future)? If not, what are you going to play your DVDs on? There are 2 sides to this : Things you've recorded yourself and commercial recordings. Suppose you'd made a number of significant, irreproduceable recordings on Elcassettes? What would you do now, assuming you couldn't fix your Elcassette machine? Suppose you'd been sensible 20 years ago anf bought a V2000 VCR (which was by far the best home format. What would you play the tapes on? Or 8 track audio cartridges... In the case of DVDs, I believe they are often copy-protected. So you may not be able to copy them onto whatever new format exists in 10 years time. Are you really happy to buy all your films again? I certainly am not. I accept that if I buy a cinema ticket, then I can watch that film once in the cinema. If I rent a video tape or DVD from the local video shop then I can watch in as many times as I like but only during the time I've rented it for (and I cna't copy it, or anything like that). But if I buy a video tape or DVD then I don't believe I am buying a time-limited license, and I should be able to watch it as far in the future as I wish. I certainly wouldn't want to buy the same film again just because some new recording format had come out! Most of the older recording devices can still be repaired because many of the electronic compoenents weren't custom, the mechanical bits can often be made in a good home workshop, and proper component-level service manuals exist. Oh, and don't give me that crap about always copying to the latest format. It plain doesn't happen. To turn this back to classic computing, suppose somebody has a 386 machine with an ST506 drive connected to a controller in an ISA slot. Now suppose some simple, TTL, chip on the motherboard fails. Do you really believe that telling them to buy a new motherboard, processor, case/PSU (the new systme will be ATX, presumably the old one was an AT-clone), maybe monitor, hard disk, and find some way of transferring their data over (modern machines don't seem to have ISA slots) is a good idea? Or would it be simpler, quicker, and cheaper to fix the darn thing properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:42:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 5, 4 02:32:24 pm Message-ID: > > Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only > used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have > been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. Maybe not in the States, but this house, built about 70 years ago, still has lead water pipes. Admittedly not for drinking water, but for some of the distribution system from the water tank in the loft (roof space). We replace it when it gives trouble, and use the lead pipe to make weights (seriously!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:22:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 5, 4 00:22:22 am Message-ID: > So I just opened it up and it's got an Intel 4004 inside! Does it contain the other related chips (4001 ROM, 4002 RAM)? > > Unfortunately, I'm not able to test it out because it requires a funky > squarish three prong power cord. I'll have to look around and see if I > can find one. This machines is the sort of thing you don't just power up!. It's sufficiently rare, and the chips are also rare (4004s are difficult to find, the ROMs with the right code in them are presumably impossible to get) that you _must_ find a way to test that power supply on a dummy load. Get the 4004 etc data shsets to work out vhat voltages to expect (I can dig these out if you can't get them any other way). If in doubt, stop and ask. This sounds like a very interesting machine, and it would be a great pity to do damage to it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:50:31 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Three lead neon lamps In-Reply-To: <40C21ECE.4010504@vzavenue.net> from "James Rice" at Jun 5, 4 02:28:14 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for a source for several three lead neon lamps. I purchased > a Sgi Galileo video analog breakout box and two neon lamps on the PC > board are broken. There are no makings on the lamps. I assume they are > some kind of protective device. How aere they wired, and what do the electrodes look like? 3 lead 'neons' say to me 'Trigger Tubes' but they have 3 very different electrodes, and I can't think of any good reason for putting them in a modern computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 17:56:31 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040605210408.024a4ef8@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Jun 5, 4 09:07:30 pm Message-ID: > My dad had (probably still has, knowing him) a big camera flash unit that > features one of these batteries. Big unit the size of a handbag with a > shoulder strap, with the accumulator in this, and flash gun on the end of a > spiral cord. I was always fascinated with it as a kid, so I guess that > places it earlier than the '70s... These sort of units were quite common at one time (and often used lead-acid 'wet cell' accumulators). Actually, I'd not be suprised if the batteries were still available somewhere.. Sometimes there were 2 or 3 plastic balls of different densities inside. They floated or sank depending on the density of the eletrolyte, which in turn depended on the state of charge of the cell. Interesting idea. Getting the HT for the 'electronic flash' tube was something of an entertainment before transistors (which took all the fun out of it, due to the ease of making an oscillator that would run off a 6V battery). Some manufacturers used a mechanical vibrator, like the one in a car radio [1] to chop up the DC from a battery to feed it into a transformer. Others used HV (250V or so) batteries. The Voigtlander Vitrona, one of the first cameras to have built-in electronic flash, did this -- a handle containing an HV battery plugged into the bottom of the cammera. [1] I am showing my age. This was how they got the HT (B+) voltage for valves (tubes) in car radios about 50 years ago... -tony From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 5 18:05:43 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Careful frame by frame viewing shows a computer I had once, and wish I > had again.. > > The Televideo (mumble model cuz I forgot) CGA+10mb IBM AT > Or the next one, Televideo portable... :^) Sounds like the TS-803H and the TPC-1. - don From kth at srv.net Sat Jun 5 19:04:30 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <000001c44a9f$4aaaf5b0$0500fea9@game> References: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> <000001c44a9f$4aaaf5b0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <40C25F8E.2090207@srv.net> Teo Zenios wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ben franchuk" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 5:50 PM >Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > > > >>Don Maslin wrote: >> >> >> >>>Well, there is a very good chance that most were well supplied. >>>Remember that in that era the water piping was lead also! >>> >>> >>But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for >>the most part. >> >> >> >>>- don >>> >>> >> >> > >Was beer the drink of the ages? I think the alcohol content of fermented >drinks made them cleaner then any other source of liquid. Lead takes a >while to accumulate in your system, and only the wealthy had plumbing. >Considering how young people died back in the roman times and earlier lead >in their water didn't matter. > > > One factor reducing the lead problems for the Romans was the fact that calcium deposits would form in the pipes, protecting the water from the lead. But then there was the Roman "artificial sweetener" (powdered lead). From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 5 18:58:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > So I just opened it up and it's got an Intel 4004 inside! > > Does it contain the other related chips (4001 ROM, 4002 RAM)? Probably. But the lighting was bad and I was too far gone at that point to tell, so I decided to put it back together to re-examine it later when I was in a better state of mind :) > This machines is the sort of thing you don't just power up!. It's > sufficiently rare, and the chips are also rare (4004s are difficult to > find, the ROMs with the right code in them are presumably impossible to > get) that you _must_ find a way to test that power supply on a dummy > load. Get the 4004 etc data shsets to work out vhat voltages to expect (I > can dig these out if you can't get them any other way). > > If in doubt, stop and ask. This sounds like a very interesting machine, > and it would be a great pity to do damage to it. Ok, I'll open it up tonight (time permitting) and take some photos for Rick and also survey the rest of the unit. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 5 19:15:31 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> > Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only > used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have > been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? In addition, most of the public say "lead pipe" when talking about galvanized iron. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 5 19:25:29 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:16 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> References: <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040605202529.008d02c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:15 PM 6/5/04 -0700, you wrote: >> Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only >> used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have >> been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. > >When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? today: Tin 99+% Previously: Why do you think they called it "soldering"? The fortunate thing is that virtually all of it is IN the joint and very little is exposed to the water. Joe From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Jun 5 19:16:51 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: HP serial card Message-ID: <10406060116.ZM6266@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've been tidying up (ahem) the workshop and came across a board I'll surely never use. It's some sort of Hewlett Packard serial card, about 8.5" long and 4.8" wide, with a 50-way edge conector at one end and a brown-painted panel, labelled "RS-232-C", over a DB25S, on the other. Part number 02670-60068. I've no idea what it's off, and no way to test it; yours for the price of postage if you can use it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Jun 5 19:43:11 2004 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7CD17A7D-B752-11D8-ACCF-000502453125@eoni.com> This day and age... silver solder. Jim On Saturday, Jun 5, 2004, at 17:15 US/Pacific, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are >> only >> used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead >> pipes have >> been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. > > When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Jun 5 19:45:28 2004 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I stand myself corrected. 95% tin, 5% copper. Jim On Saturday, Jun 5, 2004, at 17:15 US/Pacific, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are >> only >> used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead >> pipes have >> been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. > > When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? From kenziem at sympatico.ca Sat Jun 5 19:58:14 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Need Heathkit Cable In-Reply-To: <009901c44b15$bc3060a0$66406b43@66067007> References: <009901c44b15$bc3060a0$66406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <200406052058.15147.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Saturday 05 June 2004 11:56, Keys wrote: > Anyone have a extra serial I/O cable for the H9 video terminal that > connects to the H8? Thanks I came across this site yesterday when looking for the part number for a PLIP cable http://www.startech.com/cable_finder/SelectCable.cfm?id2=9 They may be able to make one. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAwmwnLPrIaE/xBZARAkg+AJ4wkmyrdhnHTdZTvUaEAhbETcjyvgCfRdIp FDNmaLv4wxRzvI7vcR1Cpe0= =xYFs -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wayne.smith at charter.net Sat Jun 5 20:04:14 2004 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Atari Mandala VR System In-Reply-To: <200406050313.i553Cuhf000856@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <000901c44b62$331db680$6501a8c0@Wayne> I'm looking to buy (or at least get a chance to look at) an original Mandala virtual reality system for the Atari - the one that was sold by Vivid beginning in around late 1989 or so. Basically works like the Playstation Eye Toy. Anybody have one or know who does? -W From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 5 20:09:15 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for > the most part. Yes, but the Romans diluted there wine with water. Kind of disgusting, actually. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 5 20:28:37 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040605171159.008df640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > My dad was just over visiting and I showed it to him. He says that he > has a similar one that was made in WW-II. He doesn't know what he's saving > his for either. He just says that it looked neat. I guess that I came by > being a pack rat honestly :-/ Most of these batteries were made in World War 2, many by a company called Willard. They pretty much fell out of fashion roight after the war in new designs, but probably were still produced for all of the existing radios (mainly) that used them. Most are worthless, but some are slightly valuable. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at rddavis.org Sat Jun 5 20:44:42 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Hero remote for pver $500 In-Reply-To: References: <20040605111854.30054e3d.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040606014442.GN21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Tony Duell, from writings of Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 11:28:23PM +0100: > All I can say is that if I ever got an unassembled Heathkit, the first > thing I'd do is read the manual, the second thing I'd do is build it! What other sensible thing would there be to do with one? To leave it unassembled would be such a waste, and to assemble it would be great fun. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 5 08:53:02 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: Message-ID: <003c01c44b04$6be2e200$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 6:39 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > > > On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > > > I can't think of any electronic devices made today that are repairable. > > > Personally the way electronics evolve I would rather buy a new DVD player > > > every 3 years for $60 then buy one for $500 and keep it even when its > > > obsolete. Its all about the money. > > > > To say nothing of the evolution of new (sometimes cool or useful) > > features... > > I really can't agree with you. > > If we froget the environmental reason (it's clearly better to repair than > replace something), and we forget the moral reason that I object to > owning something I can't fix (and so far this has _not_ happened -- I'll > fix anything I own or am likely to own!), there's another more important > point... > > Are you sure you can get a new DVD player in 3 years time (OK, in 10 > years time, but that's only 3-new-players in the future)? If not, what > are you going to play your DVDs on? > > There are 2 sides to this : Things you've recorded yourself and > commercial recordings. > > Suppose you'd made a number of significant, irreproduceable recordings on > Elcassettes? What would you do now, assuming you couldn't fix your > Elcassette machine? Suppose you'd been sensible 20 years ago anf bought a > V2000 VCR (which was by far the best home format. What would you play the > tapes on? Or 8 track audio cartridges... > > In the case of DVDs, I believe they are often copy-protected. So you may > not be able to copy them onto whatever new format exists in 10 years > time. Are you really happy to buy all your films again? I certainly am > not. I accept that if I buy a cinema ticket, then I can watch that film > once in the cinema. If I rent a video tape or DVD from the local video > shop then I can watch in as many times as I like but only during the time > I've rented it for (and I cna't copy it, or anything like that). But if I > buy a video tape or DVD then I don't believe I am buying a time-limited > license, and I should be able to watch it as far in the future as I wish. > I certainly wouldn't want to buy the same film again just because some > new recording format had come out! > > Most of the older recording devices can still be repaired because many of > the electronic compoenents weren't custom, the mechanical bits can often > be made in a good home workshop, and proper component-level service > manuals exist. > > Oh, and don't give me that crap about always copying to the latest > format. It plain doesn't happen. > > To turn this back to classic computing, suppose somebody has a 386 > machine with an ST506 drive connected to a controller in an ISA slot. Now > suppose some simple, TTL, chip on the motherboard fails. Do you really > believe that telling them to buy a new motherboard, processor, case/PSU > (the new systme will be ATX, presumably the old one was an AT-clone), > maybe monitor, hard disk, and find some way of transferring their data > over (modern machines don't seem to have ISA slots) is a good idea? Or > would it be simpler, quicker, and cheaper to fix the darn thing properly. > > -tony > There will always be devices to listen to your old recordings, you can still find record players and vcrs all over the place along with tape decks. All the new computers are made with custom parts many of which are proprietary and very hard to replace because of surface mounting. The reason electronics are so cheap today is because of the massive integration of components. The whole throw away commodity industry has also caused the massive recycling movement. Instead of landfilling all the old items they get recycled now and reused. Very few people can troubleshoot problems to component levels (and most don't even want to if they could) and with the prices for new items being so low most of the repair shops in the industry have closed. How many people go to tech school to be an electronics repairman? I can look in my basement and find 100's of devices that still work just fine but are obsolete to anyone except a collector, so even if we repaired everything it would still end up in the trash sooner or later. I would say quite a few of the people here grew up at the same time as the computer industry and know how to fix and troubleshoot computers, but the next generations will only know specialized areas of it. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 21:59:11 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <003c01c44b04$6be2e200$422d1941@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 5, 4 09:53:02 am Message-ID: > There will always be devices to listen to your old recordings, you can still > find record players and vcrs all over the place along with tape decks. Only because those devices were repairable and because there are people around who can repair them!. I would be very suprised if DVD players last in the same way (for one thing they're a darn sight worse made than, say, tape recorders, and for another they use a lot more custom parts, and for yet another there are no service manuals available). > > All the new computers are made with custom parts many of which are > proprietary and very hard to replace because of surface mounting. The reason Surface mounting (apart from BGAs!) is only hard to replace if you're a salesdroid!. > electronics are so cheap today is because of the massive integration of > components. The whole throw away commodity industry has also caused the > massive recycling movement. Instead of landfilling all the old items they > get recycled now and reused. Very few people can troubleshoot problems to It is clearly better to reuse than recylce! And a lot of stuff, at least over here, does _not_ get recycled. > component levels (and most don't even want to if they could) and with the Well, some of us actually enjoy fixing things... > prices for new items being so low most of the repair shops in the industry > have closed. How many people go to tech school to be an electronics That is a separate rant. Yes things are too cheap (If they were made correctly, and priced sensibly, then they would be worth repairing, and they would be able to be repaired...) > repairman? I can look in my basement and find 100's of devices that still > work just fine but are obsolete to anyone except a collector, so even if we Well, to me something is not obsolete if it still does the job.... > repaired everything it would still end up in the trash sooner or later. > > I would say quite a few of the people here grew up at the same time as the > computer industry and know how to fix and troubleshoot computers, but the > next generations will only know specialized areas of it. If at all. It worries me -- a lot -- that almost nobody these days has any sort of clue at all about computer hardware. I really wonder who will be designing better computers in the future (or will we be stuck with incremental modifications on the PC for ever :-() -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 5 22:01:44 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 5, 4 05:15:31 pm Message-ID: > When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? IOn the UK, pipes for drinking water now have to be soldered with lead-free solder. I am not sure (a) how much a problem leaded solder was and (b) if the lead-free stuff is actually any safer... > In addition, most of the public say "lead pipe" when talking about > galvanized iron. I can assure you the stuff we have over here is lead, or at least a high-lead-containing alloy. It melts at far too low a temperature to be iron, and it has a density similar to that of lead. -tony From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 5 22:59:51 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <40C25F8E.2090207@srv.net> References: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> <000001c44a9f$4aaaf5b0$0500fea9@game> <40C25F8E.2090207@srv.net> Message-ID: <20040606035951.GA3488@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 06:04:30PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > But then there was the Roman "artificial sweetener" (powdered lead). Lead Acetate, IIRC... used to sweeten wines. ISTR a scandal or two in the 20th C. in Europe (Austria?) involving lead acetate adulteration of wine by a vinyard. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Jun-2004 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -92.9 F (-69.4 C) Windchill -139.8 F (-95.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14 kts Grid 121 Barometer 660 mb (11388. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 5 23:04:54 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> References: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040605171356.J48578@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040606040454.GB3488@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 05:15:31PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only > > used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have > > been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. > > When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? Lead-free plumbing solder - Tin and Antimony alloy, IIRC. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Jun-2004 04:01 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.8 F (-70.5 C) Windchill -143 F (-97.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 128 Barometer 659.9 mb (11392. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 5 23:07:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: References: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20040606040739.GC3488@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 09:09:15PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > But until the Romans driking wine was safer than drinking the water for > > the most part. > > Yes, but the Romans diluted there wine with water. Kind of disgusting, > actually. As did (and frequently still do) the Greeks. We used to water our wine at dinner when I was doing archaeology, lest we, um, accidentally overindulge while eating. I wouldn't try it with other varieties of wine - they don't stand up to the practice as well as the some of the Mediterreanean varieties. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 06-Jun-2004 04:01 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -94.8 F (-70.5 C) Windchill -143 F (-97.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.6 kts Grid 128 Barometer 659.9 mb (11392. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 5 23:10:58 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> > > When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? > today: Tin 99+% Previously: Why do you think they called it > "soldering"? The fortunate thing is that virtually all of it is IN the > joint and very little is exposed to the water. .... > This day and age... silver solder. .... > I stand myself corrected. 95% tin, 5% copper. .... > In the UK, pipes for drinking water now have to be soldered with > lead-free solder. I am not sure (a) how much a problem leaded solder was > and (b) if the lead-free stuff is actually any safer... When was the "changeover"? Parts of my house are a hundred years old, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one who does not live in a little box on the hillside made of ticky-tacky. > > In addition, most of the public say "lead pipe" when talking about > > galvanized iron. > I can assure you the stuff we have over here is lead, or at least a > high-lead-containing alloy. It melts at far too low a temperature to be > iron, and it has a density similar to that of lead. I'm certainly not questioning the existence of lead pipe - I replaced some in my house with iron pipe. But it's less common now than it used to be, and I've run into more than a few extraordinarily ignorant people who will point to a piece of galvanized pipe and [INCORRECTLY] call it "lead pipe" (including staff at Home Depot!) About thirty years ago, Seattle found out that there were still bamboo pipes in active use! From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 5 23:34:27 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > My dad was just over visiting and I showed it to him. He says that he >> has a similar one that was made in WW-II. He doesn't know what he's saving >> his for either. He just says that it looked neat. I guess that I came by >> being a pack rat honestly :-/ > >Most of these batteries were made in World War 2, many by a company called >Willard. They pretty much fell out of fashion roight after the war in new >designs, but probably were still produced for all of the existing radios >(mainly) that used them. It sounds a lot like a battery we had a few of on the FFG-7 Class ship I was on in the late 80's when I was an electrician. ISTR, that they were intended for a couple high power flashlights. I also seem to remember that they didn't work in spite of the ship only being a couple years old :^/ As I recall the acid had leaked and pretty much destroyed the boxes that were supposed to hold the batteries (I think 4 to a light). Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 6 00:25:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: OT: Need X windows programming guru Message-ID: I need some expert help with some X windows programming. Are there any X gurus out there? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spc at conman.org Sun Jun 6 01:20:52 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: OT: Need X windows programming guru In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 05, 2004 10:25:22 PM Message-ID: <20040606062052.BE27010B2B56@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Vintage Computer Festival once stated: > > > I need some expert help with some X windows programming. Are there any X > gurus out there? I'm currently doing some low level Xlib programming (for fun, of course). I won't claim to be an X windows programming guru, but I can try my best at answering questions. -spc (In C no less ... ) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 6 01:51:01 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: OT: Need X windows programming guru In-Reply-To: <20040606062052.BE27010B2B56@swift.conman.org> References: <20040606062052.BE27010B2B56@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <200406060654.CAA12901@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I need some expert help with some X windows programming. Are there > any X gurus out there? In a past life, I was very involved in doing X stuff (for example, I did what I suspect was the first X server for `black' NeXT hardware - go a-googling for MouseX if you're curious). I'm not competent to speak to anything above the Xlib level (Xt, in particular, has some design botches that in my opinion render it inappropriate for anything serious), but I know the Xlib and protocol levels pretty well. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Sun Jun 6 05:16:15 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <20040604023355.70DB9801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> (Eric Dittman's message of "Thu, 3 Jun 2004 21:33:55 -0500 (CDT)") References: <20040604023355.70DB9801C@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <0qy8n1vvo0.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >> I really hate to see systems that can run VMS wasted running Unix. dittman@dittman.net (Eric Dittman) writes: > I agree with you completely, Zane. But you could have a dual-boot system, which allows you to issue commands like # wall System rebooting to VMS in ten minutes. Please adjust your files accordingly. ^d I used to run an turist vax system on orphaned hw in a uni machine room; I and the other sysadmin discussed (but never got round to) having it alternate days between OS', just to keep our users on their toes. One of the disks (an RA80 or 81) eventually had the central bearing go; the noise was so awful that it was a couple of days before anyone would go into that machine room to spin the sucker down. I still have one of the platters; they have a neat circle about half an inch wide in the middle of the media that is scoured down to the aluminum. --akb, still waiting for the reinvention of the versioning file system and the standardized stacking error facility From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 6 06:11:05 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: William Donzelli "Re: new hamfest finds" (Jun 5, 21:28) References: Message-ID: <10406061211.ZM16113@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 5, 21:28, William Donzelli wrote: > Most of these batteries were made in World War 2, many by a company called > Willard. They pretty much fell out of fashion roight after the war in new > designs, but probably were still produced for all of the existing radios > (mainly) that used them. Actually, small transparent lead-acid batteries (usually with the three balls in a column) were still made up to the 1980s. Professional flashguns and some "portable" phones used them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 6 06:15:28 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: Ethan Dicks "Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning?" (Jun 6, 3:59) References: <40C0EEB9.8050401@jetnet.ab.ca> <000001c44a9f$4aaaf5b0$0500fea9@game> <40C25F8E.2090207@srv.net> <20040606035951.GA3488@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <10406061215.ZM16117@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 6, 3:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 06:04:30PM -0600, Kevin Handy wrote: > > But then there was the Roman "artificial sweetener" (powdered lead). > > Lead Acetate, IIRC... used to sweeten wines. ISTR a scandal or two in > the 20th C. in Europe (Austria?) involving lead acetate adulteration of > wine by a vinyard. It wasn't lead acetate, it was ethylene glycol, aka antifreeze. Tiny amounts of glycol occur naturally in some wines and help to give a smoother flavour. Someone decided that a little extra would be even better :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 6 08:22:56 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.1.6.0.20040605210408.024a4ef8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040606141812.04854be8@pop.freeserve.net> At 23:56 05/06/2004 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > My dad had (probably still has, knowing him) a big camera flash unit that > > features one of these batteries. Big unit the size of a handbag with a > > shoulder strap, with the accumulator in this, and flash gun on the end > of a > > spiral cord. I was always fascinated with it as a kid, so I guess that > > places it earlier than the '70s... > >These sort of units were quite common at one time (and often used >lead-acid 'wet cell' accumulators). Actually, I'd not be suprised if the >batteries were still available somewhere.. > >Sometimes there were 2 or 3 plastic balls of different densities inside. >They floated or sank depending on the density of the eletrolyte, which in >turn depended on the state of charge of the cell. Interesting idea. Yep, his had the balls ... As a kid, I'd watch them when he had it on charge to see if I could spot them moving! The battery was exposed on the flash unit so you could monitor it's state as you used it. >Getting the HT for the 'electronic flash' tube was something of an >entertainment before transistors (which took all the fun out of it, due >to the ease of making an oscillator that would run off a 6V battery). >Some manufacturers used a mechanical vibrator, like the one in a car >radio [1] to chop up the DC from a battery to feed it into a transformer. >Others used HV (250V or so) batteries. The Voigtlander Vitrona, one of >the first cameras to have built-in electronic flash, did this -- a >handle containing an HV battery plugged into the bottom of the cammera. I remember, also as a kid, so mid to late 70's, pulling apart an old valve radio I picked up at a jumble sale. Battery operated, with spaces for about three different sort of huge batteries... I think one of those was supposed to be an HV battery - I never came across one though. >[1] I am showing my age. This was how they got the HT (B+) voltage for >valves (tubes) in car radios about 50 years ago... > >-tony From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Sat Jun 5 18:01:33 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <001601c44b35$0a6c34f0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <000201c44bcb$3d6092c0$bb72fea9@geoff> Well no, some houses here still have a lead pipe bringing in water - despite years of grants offered to upgrade. Generally speaking it's the older people in an older property who see no reason to upgrade. After all, they've had it all their lives......... Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 8:41 PM Subject: RE: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > Here in the UK, lead pipes were used for incoming water > until relatively recently (for values of recently in > the region of "but not in the last three or four decades > or so"). My parent's house (built in the 1950s I believe) > originally had an incoming supply via a lead pipe. > These days it's all plastic (until either the water board > external stop-cock or the under-the-kitchen-sink stopcock). > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 6 08:20:37 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Pictures Re: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040605171159.008df640@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040606092037.00898650@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:28 PM 6/5/04 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> My dad was just over visiting and I showed it to him. He says that he >> has a similar one that was made in WW-II. He doesn't know what he's saving >> his for either. He just says that it looked neat. I guess that I came by >> being a pack rat honestly :-/ > >Most of these batteries were made in World War 2, many by a company called >Willard. They pretty much fell out of fashion roight after the war in new >designs, but probably were still produced for all of the existing radios >(mainly) that used them. > >Most are worthless, but some are slightly valuable. > You're probably right about them being only slightly valuable but it's still interesting to look at. Most people today have nver seen the inside of a battery and have no idea what they look like. This battery was built by Willard. I took a picture today and posted it at . I forgot to mention yesterday that I also picked up a battery for a radiosonde. It's still sealed in it's orginal can so I don't know what it looks like but the guy that I got it from says that he thinks it's a Lithium battery. The date on the can is Sept 12, 1982 and it was made by VIZ. I don't know exactly who VIZ is/was but they seemed to have taken over production of cheap test equipment from RCA. I've seen their name along with RCA's on a lot of educational grade electrical equipment. I've posted a picture of this one too. it's at . FWIW I used to have a radiosonde but the battery for it was MUCH larger than this. Finally, I took pictures of the two odd tubes that I got. They're at and . The filament is in the large bulb at the side of the main tube. Only the first tube is marked. "73" has been painted near the center of it. The can see it in the photo but it's upside down. It was not printed but instead it looks like it was painted on with a small brash. Only the first tube has the silver getter material in it. Anyone have any idea what these might be for? Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 6 08:29:21 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040606092921.0089b180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:10 PM 6/5/04 -0700, you wrote: >> > When copper tubing is used, what is it soldered with? > >> today: Tin 99+% Previously: Why do you think they called it >> "soldering"? The fortunate thing is that virtually all of it is IN the >> joint and very little is exposed to the water. >.... >> This day and age... silver solder. >.... >> I stand myself corrected. 95% tin, 5% copper. >.... >> In the UK, pipes for drinking water now have to be soldered with >> lead-free solder. I am not sure (a) how much a problem leaded solder was >> and (b) if the lead-free stuff is actually any safer... > >When was the "changeover"? >Parts of my house are a hundred years old, and I'm sure >that I'm not the only one who does not live in a >little box on the hillside made of ticky-tacky. > > >> > In addition, most of the public say "lead pipe" when talking about >> > galvanized iron. > >> I can assure you the stuff we have over here is lead, or at least a >> high-lead-containing alloy. It melts at far too low a temperature to be >> iron, and it has a density similar to that of lead. > >I'm certainly not questioning the existence of lead pipe - >I replaced some in my house with iron pipe. >But it's less common now than it used to be, and I've run >into more than a few extraordinarily ignorant people who >will point to a piece of galvanized pipe and [INCORRECTLY] >call it "lead pipe" (including staff at Home Depot!) > > >About thirty years ago, Seattle found out that there were >still bamboo pipes in active use! The military base/prison at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas still has parts of their original wooden water pipe in use. IIRC the fort was originally built in the 1830s. I'm not sure when the pipe was installed but it was certainly before the War of Northern Agression (aka the Civil War to less literate of you). I believe that there are number of cities that still have parts of their original wooden water pipes in use including London UK. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 6 08:41:21 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <10406061211.ZM16113@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Re: new hamfest finds"@tampabay.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040606094121.0097bea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:11 PM 6/6/04 +0100, you wrote: >On Jun 5, 21:28, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Most of these batteries were made in World War 2, many by a company >called >> Willard. They pretty much fell out of fashion roight after the war in >new >> designs, but probably were still produced for all of the existing >radios >> (mainly) that used them. > >Actually, small transparent lead-acid batteries (usually with the three >balls in a column) were still made up to the 1980s. Professional >flashguns and some "portable" phones used them. I just looked at my battery aggain and sure enough it has the three columns in the back of it with the balls inside. I didn't notice that before. I don't think I've ever seen a battery with them built in. Usually we used a Hydrometer to suck out part of the electrolyte and test it. It's a large syringe with a clear plastic or glass tube in it and has 3, 5 or 7 balls inside the tube. The ratio of sulphuric acid to water in the electrolyte changes depending on the state of charge of the battery. As the acid/water ratio changes the specific gravilty of the solution also changes. The different balls in the hydrometer have different specific gravities so more of them will float when the charge is higher and there is more acid in the solution. Most LA batteries sold in this country in the past 25 years are now sealed and are SUPPOSED to be maintenance free so very few people know how to check one any more. Joe From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Sun Jun 6 10:05:16 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: more on printing terminals Message-ID: <0qpt8cwwur.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> I've been getting interested in printing terminals. (I am seeking professional help for this, but meanwhile...). Is there a device which is a good modern (correcting) typewriter, true letter-quality (daisy, thimble, golfball) printer, and also a terminal? Plenty of typewriters were made with serial or parallel ports, but I don't know of anything with both correction tape and a control key... Correcting Selectric II's came out around 1973, and the LA36 Decwriter II in 1974, with the Selectric III and LA100 still being available at least into the mid-eighties... was there really no perceived market for a product that combined the strengths of both? --akb From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Jun 6 10:16:37 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Fred Cisin, from writings of Sat, Jun 05, 2004 at 09:10:58PM -0700: > Parts of my house are a hundred years old, and I'm sure > that I'm not the only one who does not live in a > little box on the hillside made of ticky-tacky. True, but those who live in those flimsy new houses seem to forget that others do live in real houses that were built to last more than twenty-five years or so. As a result, some hardware stores don't even stock basic household hardware for some older houses like door knobs with a square threaded shafts connecting the knobs, selling some sort of newfangled doorknob mechanisms instead. > I'm certainly not questioning the existence of lead pipe - Joe may not believe it, but it has been used for incoming water pipes, in the U.S., in houses, schools and many other buildings within the past 100 years. > I replaced some in my house with iron pipe. > But it's less common now than it used to be, and I've run > into more than a few extraordinarily ignorant people who > will point to a piece of galvanized pipe and [INCORRECTLY] > call it "lead pipe" (including staff at Home Depot!) Hmmm... do they call black iron pipe lead pipe as well? Most likely. >From what I've read, the new black iron pipe isn't threaded, and gets connected with fittings that will most likely wear out well before the pipe does. Seems to me that the goal is not to build houses with piping that lasts, but piping that provides plumbers with good incomes. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Jun 5 16:31:24 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Looking for Pittman's Tiny Basic References: <000801c44a8a$7b162e50$3e01a8c0@Sui> Message-ID: <000501c44b44$75dc7ce0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Bob (Tom), ? I have TB for the ET(A)-3400 (Motorola 6800) but you have to also have the Terminal / Monitor ROM running with it as the "hooks" to the I/O are in the monitor ROM. Each fits into a 2K EPROM. I used to have the 6502 also but it is probably buried in a deep, dark, scary place (garage). I'll see what I can find. Do you need an "image" or what type of format / media ? Best regards, Steven Tom offered to send me a paper tape if I could read it. I asked on this list and got a lot of offers to help... thanks to everyone who wanted to help! Today I got email from Tom again. He moved several years ago, and just went to look for the tapes. The box labeled TINY BASIC had paper tapes, but not for Tiny. He's optimistic that he might still have the original tapes somewhere and he plans on looking for them. The only version he found so far has been for the 1802. In the mean time, if anyone on the list has any version of Tom's TB, he might appreciate getting copies, even if it's just the binaries. I'm desperately seeking the 6502 version, so hopefully someone can get a copy to Tom. He must have sold quite a few copies, considering they were originally $5 each ($5 for software? Amazing!). Hopefully someone has some old copies laying around. Bob From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 6 11:45:01 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040606173924.048f8e90@pop.freeserve.net> At 11:16 06/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Hmmm... do they call black iron pipe lead pipe as well? Most likely. > >From what I've read, the new black iron pipe isn't threaded, and gets >connected with fittings that will most likely wear out well before the >pipe does. Seems to me that the goal is not to build houses with >piping that lasts, but piping that provides plumbers with good >incomes. My father took on a modern shoe-box a few years ago as part-ex for the sale of their old house; they rent it out now, but the plumbing caused no end of problems. All the pipework on the central heating system was plastic, with fittings glued to the pipes. Of course, pumping very hot water around quickly (in terms of life of a house, even these shoddy ones) caused the plastic to go brittle, and all it took was a radiator pipe being bumped with a vacuum cleaner to break one... this was after a hot water pipe to the kitchen sink ballooned up before bursting... He had it completely re-done in copper pipe in the end.. No problems since! Rob From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 6 12:13:22 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040606173924.048f8e90@pop.freeserve.net> References: <20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040606131322.0097a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:45 PM 6/6/04 +0100, you wrote: >At 11:16 06/06/2004 -0400, you wrote: > >>Hmmm... do they call black iron pipe lead pipe as well? Most likely. >> >From what I've read, the new black iron pipe isn't threaded, and gets >>connected with fittings that will most likely wear out well before the >>pipe does. Seems to me that the goal is not to build houses with >>piping that lasts, but piping that provides plumbers with good >>incomes. > >My father took on a modern shoe-box a few years ago as part-ex for the sale >of their old house; they rent it out now, but the plumbing caused no end of >problems. All the pipework on the central heating system was plastic, with >fittings glued to the pipes. Of course, pumping very hot water around >quickly (in terms of life of a house, even these shoddy ones) caused the >plastic to go brittle, and all it took was a radiator pipe being bumped >with a vacuum cleaner to break one... this was after a hot water pipe to >the kitchen sink ballooned up before bursting... > >He had it completely re-done in copper pipe in the end.. No problems since! He's lucky! They use copper around here and about ten years ago they started coming out with some kind of very thin wall stuff. Houses have been springing leaks left and right! My mother-in-law has had about six major leaks in the last five years. They've had to tear big holes in the walls to get to the leaks to fix them (not to mention the water damage). The plumbers have told her that the next time it happens that she needs to have the entire house replumbed. One brand new house in my mother's area was condemmed due to the number of leaks and the amount of damage that they caused. I'm not critisizing copper pipe, that's what I have. But there have been a LOT of problems with it in this area in the last ten years or so due to the poor quality of the pipe. Joe From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Sun Jun 6 14:01:52 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org><20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> <3.0.6.32.20040606131322.0097a100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000b01c44bf8$cc5c7340$6402a8c0@home> > > He's lucky! They use copper around here and about ten years ago they > started coming out with some kind of very thin wall stuff. Houses have been > springing leaks left and right! My mother-in-law has had about six major > leaks in the last five years. They've had to tear big holes in the walls to > get to the leaks to fix them (not to mention the water damage). The > plumbers have told her that the next time it happens that she needs to have > the entire house replumbed. One brand new house in my mother's area was > condemmed due to the number of leaks and the amount of damage that they > caused. > > I'm not critisizing copper pipe, that's what I have. But there have been > a LOT of problems with it in this area in the last ten years or so due to > the poor quality of the pipe. > > Joe I seem to remember a class-action suit about this pipe. Might be worth checking into. bm From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Jun 6 14:33:16 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040606092921.0089b180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040606092921.0089b180@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <20040606193316.GA26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Joe R., from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 09:29:21AM -0400: > The military base/prison at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas still has parts of > their original wooden water pipe in use. IIRC the fort was originally built > in the 1830s. I'm not sure when the pipe was installed but it was certainly > before the War of Northern Agression (aka the Civil War to less literate of Ah yes, the war started by that tall skinny despot in the White House, who decided that states rights didn't matter. To prove his point, and to get those "unpatriotic" people who valued states' rights and didn't want to pay the high taxes, he unleashed his troops, led by a general who was anything but a gentleman, to burn, pillage and rape throughout the South. The past few present administrations are shining examples of that despot's legacy, determined to prove that the federal government should have all of the rights and that the people are supoposed to have virtually none, particularly if such rights interfere with corruption, greed and other related preoccupations of the politicians and their corporate puppeteers. > you). I believe that there are number of cities that still have parts of > their original wooden water pipes in use including London UK. Very interesting. I wonder what condition those pipes are in by now. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jun 6 14:38:07 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Documentation for TTi QTS-1 ? Message-ID: <003401c44bfd$ce3e6060$ba02010a@LIFEBOOK> Hi, I have here on the table a slightly dusty TTi (Transitional Technology Inc) QTS-1 card. I'm hoping (really, really, hoping) that this is a QBUS SCSI controller, but I don't have any documentation and I haven't been able to find any in the usual places. It looks like it expects you to talk to it with a terminal for configuration - there's a 10 pin header next to the SCSI connector that's probably for a serial port, and there are absolutely no switches or jumpers anywhere. Does anybody know anything about it? Does it emulate a MSCP (e.g. RQDX) controller? Or (I hope not) does it require special drivers? Anybody got a manual for it? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 12:16:38 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 5, 4 09:34:27 pm Message-ID: > couple years old :^/ As I recall the acid had leaked and pretty much > destroyed the boxes that were supposed to hold the batteries (I think > 4 to a light). This is a common problem with old (1930s) portable radios in the UK, many of which used a wet cell LT (A) battery. The acid either leaked out, or acidic vapour escaped and rotted the cabinet (and the wiring sometimes). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 12:23:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040606141812.04854be8@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Jun 6, 4 02:22:56 pm Message-ID: > I remember, also as a kid, so mid to late 70's, pulling apart an old valve > radio I picked up at a jumble sale. Battery operated, with spaces for > about three different sort of huge batteries... I think one of those was > supposed to be an HV battery - I never came across one though. Most valve portables used 2 batteries -- HT (almost always a dry battery, between 67.5 and 150V) and LT (originally a wet cell accumulator, later radios (1950s) used a dry cell pack for this too). Grid bias was almost always provided by 'self bias' circuits (resistors in the cathode circuit of the valves, etc), but some early sets used a 9V (tapped every 1.5V) grid bias battery. I can just rememebr using the 90V HT batteries (Every Ready B126 IIRC). The LT batteries often had ADnn numbers, the AD stood for 'All Dry' refering to the fact that you didn't have a wet cell in the radio. I also remember reading about an RCA (I think) set that was valved but ran off a single wet cell. It used a vibrator and transformer to get the HT. These days, if you want ot use such a radio (and they sound a lot better than many modern sets, and yes, some of them did cover the FM band) you either use 10 PP3 (9V) batteries in series for the HT or a mains PSU. A 30V (RMS) trnasformer followed by a votlage doubler rectifier works fine for most sets. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 12:26:39 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040606094121.0097bea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 6, 4 09:41:21 am Message-ID: > > I just looked at my battery aggain and sure enough it has the three > columns in the back of it with the balls inside. I didn't notice that > before. I don't think I've ever seen a battery with them built in. Usually > we used a Hydrometer to suck out part of the electrolyte and test it. It's This is, of course, a built-in hydrometer. > a large syringe with a clear plastic or glass tube in it and has 3, 5 or 7 > balls inside the tube. The ratio of sulphuric acid to water in the The battery-testing hydrometers we use in the UK have a special float with a calibrated stem. The height it floats at depends on the density of the electrolyte. It's normally housed in a glass tube with a rubber bulb on the end to suck up some of the elctrolyte... > electrolyte changes depending on the state of charge of the battery. As the > acid/water ratio changes the specific gravilty of the solution also > changes. The different balls in the hydrometer have different specific > gravities so more of them will float when the charge is higher and there is > more acid in the solution. Most LA batteries sold in this country in the > past 25 years are now sealed and are SUPPOSED to be maintenance free so And if you believe that you believe anything :-). Car batteries still seem to benefit from being topped up with distilled water from time to time... > very few people know how to check one any more. -tony From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Jun 6 15:30:02 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted Message-ID: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> Michelle writes: ----> Hi, I am looking for a large quantity of vintage laptops. They do not have to work, just look good. I will use them in my decor package for TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. Sincerely, Michelle Edwards 615-255-6767 Mejjandb@aolNOSPAM.com - Remove the obvious[/quote] <----- Please contact her, not me. The usual disclaimers apply. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum The Vintage Computer Forum From wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu Sun Jun 6 12:19:52 2004 From: wgungfu at csd.uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Atari Mandala VR System In-Reply-To: <000901c44b62$331db680$6501a8c0@Wayne> from "Wayne Smith" at Jun 05, 2004 06:04:14 PM Message-ID: <200406061719.i56HJqdK017402@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> >I'm looking to buy (or at least get a chance to look at) an original >Mandala virtual reality system for the Atari - the one that was sold by >Vivid beginning in around late 1989 or so. Basically works like the >Playstation Eye Toy. > >Anybody have one or know who does? > >-W > Actually that was an Amiga driven system, not Atari. You can read the specs about it here: http://www.siggraph.org/~fujii/etech/1991_14.html From fm.arnold at gmx.net Sat Jun 5 23:58:12 2004 From: fm.arnold at gmx.net (Frank Arnold) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: More on printing terminals In-Reply-To: <200406061703.i56H3Phf014202@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406061703.i56H3Phf014202@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: cctech-request@classiccmp.org schrieb am 06.06.2004: >Message: 15 >Date: Sun, 06 Jun 2004 11:05:16 -0400 >From: akb+lists.cctech@imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) >Subject: more on printing terminals >To: cctech@classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <0qpt8cwwur.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >I've been getting interested in printing terminals. >(I am seeking professional help for this, but meanwhile...). > >Is there a device which is a good modern (correcting) typewriter, >true letter-quality (daisy, thimble, golfball) printer, and also >a terminal? > >Plenty of typewriters were made with serial or parallel ports, >but I don't know of anything with both correction tape and a control key... > >Correcting Selectric II's came out around 1973, and the LA36 Decwriter >II in 1974, with the Selectric III and LA100 still being available at >least into the mid-eighties... was there really no perceived market >for a product that combined the strengths of both? > We had at the office (in Germany) Olympia daisy-wheel typewritere with correction tape, that could optionalley be fitted with a RS232 interface. We used it at one of the machines, but only for output. Those typewriters may still be available today. >akb, still waiting for the reinvention of the versioning file system and >the standardized stacking error facility > Why re-invent? I have RSX11! Frank From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Jun 6 16:04:35 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: VAX Console 380 (Professional 380?) In-Reply-To: <200406032018.33663.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Shh! Don't let Michael Sokolov hear you! > > Actually, I don't have any PDP running UNIX yet, but would like to at > some point. VMS, of course, is the only proper OS to run on a VAX. ;) > > Alphas, however, are pretty nice at running Linux, but that's not real > Unix (or on-topic by age). All my PDP-11's run UNIX of some sort; most run Ultrix-11 (of course), some 2.11BSD, and the rest runs 2.9BSD. --f From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 6 16:31:56 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net> <20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <20040606142601.A64111@newshell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, R. D. Davis wrote: > True, but those who live in those flimsy new houses seem to forget > that others do live in real houses that were built to last more than > twenty-five years or so. As a result, some hardware stores don't even > stock basic household hardware for some older houses like door knobs > with a square threaded shafts connecting the knobs, selling some sort > of newfangled doorknob mechanisms instead. But you do not often need to replace the square shaft ones, unless you've left the setscrew loose and stripped it, or chipped one of the glass ones. > From what I've read, the new black iron pipe isn't threaded, I've always bought the long lengths of it unthreaded. That's what Ridgid pipe threading dies are for. But, It's more convenient to buy the really short pieces ("nipples") already threaded. Still, these days, you need to sift through the entire stock to find some with GOOD threads. From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Jun 6 17:09:31 2004 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: HP 7908 woes Message-ID: <20040606220931.26447.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> My HP 7908 (kindly donated last year by Steven Hirsch) failed this weekend. Investigation reveals that it has blown the 10A fuse in the +12V section of the power supply and when I replaced the fuse it blew again - but stayed up long enough for me to see that the on-board diagnostics do at least begin to run and that the disk itself begins to spin up. Rather than continue to stuff fuses in it I need to identify the root cause of the failure. Recognizing that there could be 1000 reasons why that 12V line is being overtaxed, has anyone encountered a similar issue ? Clutching at straws at this point, but any pointers would be helpful. The service manual that I have does not give any specific guidance on how to deal with this. What's irritating about this is that I had only powered it up to boot an HP64000 to copy some disks. Failing that, does anyone have a comparable CS/80 unit they might be willing to part with ? Or parts from another 7908 ? Thanks, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 6 18:02:12 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:17 2005 Subject: Atari Mandala VR System In-Reply-To: <200406061719.i56HJqdK017402@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> References: <200406061719.i56HJqdK017402@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: > >I'm looking to buy (or at least get a chance to look at) an original >>Mandala virtual reality system for the Atari - the one that was sold by >>Vivid beginning in around late 1989 or so. Basically works like the >>Playstation Eye Toy. >> > >Anybody have one or know who does? > >Actually that was an Amiga driven system, not Atari. You can read the >specs about it here: > >http://www.siggraph.org/~fujii/etech/1991_14.html Is this the one where you stood on a round base, with a railing all the way around at about waist height and you then put on goggles and had a "gun"? Typically they seemed to be setup to play "Teradactiles Revenge" , but once I got to play one where it was a sort of dungeon crawl (in fact that was the last time I ever saw one in the mid-90's). The one I'm thinking of was Amiga driven, but might be different. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From donm at cts.com Sun Jun 6 18:14:34 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040606094121.0097bea0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > At 12:11 PM 6/6/04 +0100, you wrote: > >On Jun 5, 21:28, William Donzelli wrote: > > > >> Most of these batteries were made in World War 2, many by a company > >called > >> Willard. They pretty much fell out of fashion roight after the war in > >new > >> designs, but probably were still produced for all of the existing > >radios > >> (mainly) that used them. > > > >Actually, small transparent lead-acid batteries (usually with the three > >balls in a column) were still made up to the 1980s. Professional > >flashguns and some "portable" phones used them. > > I just looked at my battery aggain and sure enough it has the three > columns in the back of it with the balls inside. I didn't notice that > before. I don't think I've ever seen a battery with them built in. Usually > we used a Hydrometer to suck out part of the electrolyte and test it. It's > a large syringe with a clear plastic or glass tube in it and has 3, 5 or 7 > balls inside the tube. The ratio of sulphuric acid to water in the > electrolyte changes depending on the state of charge of the battery. As the > acid/water ratio changes the specific gravilty of the solution also > changes. The different balls in the hydrometer have different specific > gravities so more of them will float when the charge is higher and there is > more acid in the solution. Most LA batteries sold in this country in the > past 25 years are now sealed and are SUPPOSED to be maintenance free so > very few people know how to check one any more. > > Joe You were using one of the modern ones, Joe. My introduction to battery hydrometers was the syringe as you describe, but with a single calibrated glass float whose position relative to the top of the fluid introduced into the syringe told the story. - don From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 6 18:24:50 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Pictures Re: new hamfest finds In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040606092037.00898650@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > You're probably right about them being only slightly valuable but it's > still interesting to look at. Most people today have nver seen the inside > of a battery and have no idea what they look like. This battery was built > by Willard. I took a picture today and posted it at > . Congrats - you found one of the better batteries. Three of these fit inside a CY-77/PPN-1 battery box for the AN/PPN-1: http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/CY-77_PPN-1A.open.jpg AN/PPN-1s are quite valuable ($3500 typical), but few collectors pay much for the batteries - who wants to lug around three heavy batteries in a closed box when playing soldier? Still, you could probably get $25 to 50 for your unit. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From rdd at rddavis.org Sun Jun 6 18:51:17 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> References: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: <20040606235117.GD26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Erik S. Klein, from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 01:30:02PM -0700: > TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our > domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to > include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. That is indeed a sick thought; a perverse waste of laptops. Darned biz'droids... mumble, grumble... What will become of those laptops when they remodel the restaraunts again and no longer want them? Recycling bins or landfills? -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 6 07:00:16 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted References: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> <20040606235117.GD26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <000c01c44bbd$d4fc1950$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted > Quothe Erik S. Klein, from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 01:30:02PM -0700: > > TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our > > domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to > > include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. > > That is indeed a sick thought; a perverse waste of laptops. Darned > biz'droids... mumble, grumble... What will become of those laptops > when they remodel the restaraunts again and no longer want them? > Recycling bins or landfills? > > -- > Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > Well I don't think he needs working laptops, and his version of vintage and ours are probably not the same. What's wrong with selling him dead Pentium laptops that would otherwise get tossed or recycled anyway? I don't think he is asking for 500 portable vintage macs or stuff like that. From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Sun Jun 6 19:03:54 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8"hard sectored floppies References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com><200406041616.16442.pat@computer-refuge.org><1086393946.2413.31.camel@dhcp-249192.mobile.uci.edu> <200406041955.25042.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00f801c44c24$96ed8a60$bb72fea9@geoff> Which left-hand rule are we considering ? :^) Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 1:55 AM Subject: Re: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8"hard sectored floppies > > It's like the left-hand rule. I remember the rule, only I forgot what > > it's for.Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 6 19:26:49 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: <20040606235117.GD26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> References: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> <20040606235117.GD26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: >Quothe Erik S. Klein, from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 01:30:02PM -0700: >> TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our >> domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to >> include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. > >That is indeed a sick thought; a perverse waste of laptops. Darned >biz'droids... mumble, grumble... What will become of those laptops >when they remodel the restaraunts again and no longer want them? >Recycling bins or landfills? As long as they're not something like Sparcbooks or the legendary Alphabook, who cares as long as they're dead. Most people just toss these things when they're dead or no longer wanted. Think of it as saving them from polluting some landfill. Besides their idea of vintage is probably Sony Viao's or Apple iBooks and Powerbooks. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 6 20:18:23 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8"hard sectored floppies In-Reply-To: <00f801c44c24$96ed8a60$bb72fea9@geoff> References: <030604155.18485@webbox.com> <200406041955.25042.pat@computer-refuge.org> <00f801c44c24$96ed8a60$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <200406062018.23527.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 06 June 2004 19:03, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Which left-hand rule are we considering ? The rule that says that no engineer or physicist is left-handed. :) Careful on your quoting, I *definately* didn't say what your message makes it appear I did... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patrick Finnegan" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 1:55 AM > Subject: Re: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? > (was: 8"hard sectored floppies > > > > It's like the left-hand rule. I remember the rule, only I forgot > > > what it's for.Pat > > > > -- > > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- > > http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge > > --- http://computer-refuge.org -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jun 6 21:17:43 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: Be aware that their mounting method will for-sure kill whatever gear they get. g. On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Erik S. Klein wrote: > Michelle writes: > > ----> > Hi, I am looking for a large quantity of vintage laptops. They do not > have to work, just look good. I will use them in my decor package for > TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our > domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to > include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. > Sincerely, > Michelle Edwards > 615-255-6767 > > Mejjandb@aolNOSPAM.com - Remove the obvious[/quote] > > <----- > > Please contact her, not me. > > The usual disclaimers apply. > > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum > The Vintage Computer Forum > > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Jun 6 21:10:40 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Atari Mandala VR System In-Reply-To: References: <200406061719.i56HJqdK017402@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <20040607021040.GA20241@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 04:02:12PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is this the one where you stood on a round base, with a railing all > the way around at about waist height and you then put on goggles and > had a "gun"? Typically they seemed to be setup to play "Teradactiles > Revenge" , but once I got to play one where it was a sort of > dungeon crawl (in fact that was the last time I ever saw one in the > mid-90's). The one I'm thinking of was Amiga driven, but might be > different. That one was Amiga driven - one Amiga 3000 per player. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 07-Jun-2004 02:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -96 F (-71.0 C) Windchill -138.4 F (-94.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.5 kts Grid 060 Barometer 656.7 mb (11515. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 6 22:37:02 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 6, 4 05:26:49 pm" Message-ID: <200406070337.UAA14238@floodgap.com> > Besides their idea of vintage is probably Sony Viao's or Apple iBooks > and Powerbooks. ARGH. If someone's going to toss Apple {Power,i}Books to them, please talk to me first if they just need a home. ^^;; -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- It would have been funnier if I didn't have to think. -- Ashley Mills ------ From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 6 22:30:42 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: <200406070337.UAA14238@floodgap.com> References: <200406070337.UAA14238@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > Besides their idea of vintage is probably Sony Viao's or Apple iBooks >> and Powerbooks. > >ARGH. If someone's going to toss Apple {Power,i}Books to them, please >talk to me first if they just need a home. ^^;; I should have said that one myself :^) Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 22:58:57 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: HP 7908 woes In-Reply-To: <20040606220931.26447.qmail@web13524.mail.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at Jun 6, 4 03:09:31 pm Message-ID: > > My HP 7908 (kindly donated last year by Steven Hirsch) > failed this weekend. Investigation reveals that it has > blown the 10A fuse in the +12V section of the power > supply and when I replaced the fuse it blew again - > but stayed up long enough for me to see that the > on-board diagnostics do at least begin to run and that > the disk itself begins to spin up. Rather than > continue to stuff fuses in it I need to identify the > root cause of the failure. > > Recognizing that there could be 1000 reasons why that > 12V line is being overtaxed, has anyone encountered a > similar issue ? Clutching at straws at this point, but > any pointers would be helpful. The service manual that > I have does not give any specific guidance on how to > deal with this. Is this a real service manual, or a boardswapper guide? I assume the latter, alas :-( Anyway, what I would do is figure out what runs off the 12V line (probably some of the motor drivers, etc). And then disconnect the 12V line from them (disconnect the power cable from the drive PCB, etc as appropriate). Try to get the fuse to hold _and the 12V line correct_ with no load or a dummy load. Then you need to trace the circuits that it feeds to find what's shorted. The fact that it holds for a short time suggests to me that it's not a dead short across the power line. Maybe it's one transistor of a totem pole pair across the 12V line that's shorted (perhaps part of a stepper motor or voice coil driver). The fuse is OK until the other transistor gets turned on, then you get a short across the 12V line. -tony From cb at mythtech.net Sun Jun 6 23:12:55 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? Message-ID: I noticed this on ebay tonight: Seller thinks it may be a prerelease model because the FCC sticker says it isn't approved and can't be sold. Possibly they are correct, maybe it was a review model sent out before they hit the stores. I'd love to have it, opening bid of $9.99, but I'm sure it will go above my price range before it closes (and now that I've pointed it out here, that's almost a sure event). -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 6 23:07:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: <20040606235117.GD26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> from "R. D. Davis" at Jun 6, 4 07:51:17 pm Message-ID: > > Quothe Erik S. Klein, from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 01:30:02PM -0700: > > TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our > > domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to > > include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. > > That is indeed a sick thought; a perverse waste of laptops. Darned I'm with Bob on this one.... OK, they may not want any real classics (and anyone who gives them any original Mac portables, HP110s, HP Portable+'s, HX20s, PX4s, PX8s, etc is sick in the head!), but even modern laptops can be useful, or can have useful bits extracted from them. I suppose it's OK if the machines were going in the recycling [1] bin anyway, but if they're currently in the hands of collectors presumably that's not the case. [1] The only 'recycling' that should be done to a computer is at the microcode level (obscure PERQ-related joke concerning writing to the control store and the fact that the current microinstruction is sort-of executed twice). > biz'droids... mumble, grumble... What will become of those laptops > when they remodel the restaraunts again and no longer want them? > Recycling bins or landfills? Most likely :-( -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 7 00:13:45 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? In-Reply-To: from chris at "Jun 7, 4 00:12:55 am" Message-ID: <200406070513.WAA14080@floodgap.com> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4610&item=5100579412 > > Seller thinks it may be a prerelease model because the FCC sticker says > it isn't approved and can't be sold. Possibly they are correct, maybe it > was a review model sent out before they hit the stores. > I'd love to have it, opening bid of $9.99, but I'm sure it will go above > my price range before it closes (and now that I've pointed it out here, > that's almost a sure event). Maybe not -- it's apparently not bootable. Dead disk, it seems. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Experience only makes you more interesting and marketable. -- Judy Blackburn From vax3900 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 00:57:43 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Another computer toxic issue Message-ID: <20040607055743.71005.qmail@web51801.mail.yahoo.com> "Computers have traces of deadly toxic dust" http://theinquirer.net/?article=16393 It is time for you to liquidate your collections. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Jun 7 01:19:38 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Another computer toxic issue References: <20040607055743.71005.qmail@web51801.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <005201c44c57$69336c60$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> hell... the cure is just use a computer old enough it does not have the toxins! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "SHAUN RIPLEY" To: Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 10:57 PM Subject: Another computer toxic issue > "Computers have traces of deadly toxic dust" > http://theinquirer.net/?article=16393 > It is time for you to liquidate your collections. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > From esharpe at uswest.net Mon Jun 7 01:21:34 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <20040605205932.C52450@newshell.lmi.net><20040606151637.GS21292@rhiannon.rddavis.org> <20040606142601.A64111@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <005801c44c57$aec07250$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> ah! an the nasty ass smell of pipe threading oil...... I think they put sulphur in the stuff.... what a flash back! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 2:31 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, R. D. Davis wrote: > > True, but those who live in those flimsy new houses seem to forget > > that others do live in real houses that were built to last more than > > twenty-five years or so. As a result, some hardware stores don't even > > stock basic household hardware for some older houses like door knobs > > with a square threaded shafts connecting the knobs, selling some sort > > of newfangled doorknob mechanisms instead. > > But you do not often need to replace the square shaft ones, > unless you've left the setscrew loose and stripped it, > or chipped one of the glass ones. > > > From what I've read, the new black iron pipe isn't threaded, > > I've always bought the long lengths of it unthreaded. > That's what Ridgid pipe threading dies are for. > But, It's more convenient to buy the really short > pieces ("nipples") already threaded. > Still, these days, you need to sift through the entire > stock to find some with GOOD threads. > > > > > > From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Mon Jun 7 04:51:39 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Three lead neon lamps References: <40C21ECE.4010504@vzavenue.net> Message-ID: <062501c44c75$07a56160$6a00a8c0@athlon> They may be some form of 'gaseous arrestor'-these are available in a variety of striking voltages and surge current ratings-3 lead ones are typically used in telco equipment to protect balanced metallic i/o ports. DaveB, Ch Ch , NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Rice" To: "cctalk@classiccmp" Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 7:28 AM Subject: Three lead neon lamps > I'm looking for a source for several three lead neon lamps. I purchased > a Sgi Galileo video analog breakout box and two neon lamps on the PC > board are broken. There are no makings on the lamps. I assume they are > some kind of protective device. > > I've been browsing several lamps sites and have only seen two lead lamps. > > James > > From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Jun 7 07:07:49 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <200406041711.i54HBlIS007100@queen.cs.drexel.edu> References: <200406041711.i54HBlIS007100@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4BA162F7-B87B-11D8-AA50-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 5 Jun 2004, at 03:11, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Sure, but C64s, VAXen and such never had any viruses written >> specifically for >> them, IIRC. [...] > > VAXen? How about the Morris worm that flooded the Internet back in 86? > It had a specific buffer overflow (for fingerd) that injected vax > machine code onto the stack. Of course, this only applied to those infidels who thought VAXen could run something other than VAX/VMS :-) Of course, there was the infamous DECnet worm but that's another story.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Mon Jun 7 07:51:12 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? References: <060320042350.19383.40BFB9470002508600004BB721603762239B0809079D99D309@att.net> <3.0.6.32.20040605143224.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <018e01c44c8e$1da16540$4601a8c0@ebrius> My house (in the north of England) has a lead pipe for the supply. I know it's lead, because it runs unexposed for about three feet (and unsupported) in the kitchen, where it snakes in and out of the floor. I know it's lead because you can bend it back and forth. The house is about 100 years old, and I bet it's been retrofitted for running water. In fact, I know it has, as it still have the opening for the midden in the alleyway. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:32 PM Subject: Re: vintage computers and lead poisoning? > > Lead pipes are common in OLD houses but even there lead pipes are only > used for drainage and not for incoming water. I don't think lead pipes have > been used for incoming water for AT LEAST 150 years. > > Joe "Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 7 08:45:22 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? Message-ID: >Maybe not -- it's apparently not bootable. Dead disk, it seems. >From the description, it sounds like it is just another dead Apple SCSI drive. I have gone thru stacks of these 40 and 80 MB drives from Apple (all Conner I believe, just like the one pictured). They seem to have motor failures and stop spinning. But the Portable uses a standard 3.5" SCSI drive, so it is fairly trivial to swap the drive. Granted it lessens the "value" if it carries a different drive, but since I've already been outbid, I'll stick with the idea that it will exceed my price threshold before it sells. :-) -chris From RMaxwell at atlantissi.com Mon Jun 7 08:49:20 2004 From: RMaxwell at atlantissi.com (RMaxwell@atlantissi.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 and Full-height 5.25" Floppy Drives Message-ID: <9726BA9DE867D51183B900B0D0AB85F802F128B3@INETMAIL> I've been restoring a NorthStar Horizon that had its 5.25" full-height double-sided floppy drives removed long ago. A friend has given me another computer with those drives, but when I inspected it, I realized that it's a true-blue IBM 5150 PC in very good condition! The 5.25" drives' front panels are marked with the "IBM" logo, which makes them less-than-genuine for installation into a pre-IBM microcomputer. There may be parties that would protest stripping one "classic" to restore another: I'm hoping if there might be someone interested in both/either: - acquiring the 5150 as is (256K RAM [4 rows of 64K] on motherboard, plus 256K more on expansion card, no monitor); - supplying (Tandon TM100-2?) full-height DS 5.25" drives for the Horizon. The big hole in the Horizon's front panel really calls out for full-height drives. Any help/ideas/suggestions? I'm located in Southern Ontario, Canada and am contemplating attending VCF East. Bob Maxwell rmaxwell@atlantissi.com From dave04a at dunfield.com Mon Jun 7 10:47:30 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (dave04a@dunfield.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 and Full-height 5.25 Floppy Drives Message-ID: <221000-22004617154730673@M2W054.mail2web.com> Hi Bob, I would be interested in this - I Am located in Ottawa, and am planning to be in Toronto later this month or early next month - where exactly are you located? And I have a pair of TM100-2 drives sitting on the shelf! The Horizon is a nice machine - used to have one years ago, and have not been able to find another... I have a NorthStar disk controller installed in my Altair, which runs NorthStar DOS as well as my own DMF system. There's a simulator for this machine on my "museum" page: http://www.dunfield.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html This will let you boot up NorthStar DOS on your PC! Also have most of the NorthStar manuals and a lot of other reference info. scanned and posted there, which may be of use to you. Regards, Dave Dunfield [posting from web client - so sig is not attached] Original Message: ----------------- From: RMaxwell@atlantissi.com Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:49:20 -0400 To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: IBM 5150 and Full-height 5.25" Floppy Drives I've been restoring a NorthStar Horizon that had its 5.25" full-height double-sided floppy drives removed long ago. A friend has given me another computer with those drives, but when I inspected it, I realized that it's a true-blue IBM 5150 PC in very good condition! The 5.25" drives' front panels are marked with the "IBM" logo, which makes them less-than-genuine for installation into a pre-IBM microcomputer. There may be parties that would protest stripping one "classic" to restore another: I'm hoping if there might be someone interested in both/either: - acquiring the 5150 as is (256K RAM [4 rows of 64K] on motherboard, plus 256K more on expansion card, no monitor); - supplying (Tandon TM100-2?) full-height DS 5.25" drives for the Horizon. The big hole in the Horizon's front panel really calls out for full-height drives. Any help/ideas/suggestions? I'm located in Southern Ontario, Canada and am contemplating attending VCF East. Bob Maxwell rmaxwell@atlantissi.com -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 7 11:41:04 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? In-Reply-To: from chris at "Jun 7, 4 09:45:22 am" Message-ID: <200406071641.JAA13600@floodgap.com> > >Maybe not -- it's apparently not bootable. Dead disk, it seems. > > From the description, it sounds like it is just another dead Apple SCSI > drive. I have gone thru stacks of these 40 and 80 MB drives from Apple > (all Conner I believe, just like the one pictured). They seem to have > motor failures and stop spinning. > > But the Portable uses a standard 3.5" SCSI drive, so it is fairly trivial > to swap the drive. Granted it lessens the "value" if it carries a > different drive, but since I've already been outbid, I'll stick with the > idea that it will exceed my price threshold before it sells. :-) My Portable has a weird interface connected to the Conner, though. I think it's a 40-pin variety. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm in perpetual denial." ---------------- From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 11:58:59 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Pictures Re: new hamfest finds Message-ID: <200406071658.JAA01265@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." >> ---snip--- > > You're probably right about them being only slightly valuable but it's >still interesting to look at. Most people today have nver seen the inside >of a battery and have no idea what they look like. This battery was built >by Willard. I took a picture today and posted it at >. Hi Seems to be a standard Lead Acid cell. I have some Silver Zinc cells that are dry stored that look similar. These use an alkali unlike the lead acid cells. > > I forgot to mention yesterday that I also picked up a battery for a >radiosonde. It's still sealed in it's orginal can so I don't know what it >looks like but the guy that I got it from says that he thinks it's a >Lithium battery. The date on the can is Sept 12, 1982 and it was made by >VIZ. I don't know exactly who VIZ is/was but they seemed to have taken over >production of cheap test equipment from RCA. I've seen their name along >with RCA's on a lot of educational grade electrical equipment. I've posted >a picture of this one too. it's at >. FWIW I used to have >a radiosonde but the battery for it was MUCH larger than this. Most likely for a transistor unit, being from the 80's. I have two old tube radiosondes that I've collected. > > Finally, I took pictures of the two odd tubes that I got. They're at > and >. The filament is in the >large bulb at the side of the main tube. Only the first tube is marked. >"73" has been painted near the center of it. The can see it in the photo >but it's upside down. It was not printed but instead it looks like it was >painted on with a small brash. Only the first tube has the silver getter >material in it. Anyone have any idea what these might be for? I'll bet it is some kind of arc lamp. Dwight > > Joe > From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 7 12:01:33 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? Message-ID: >My Portable has a weird interface connected to the Conner, though. I think >it's a 40-pin variety. Humm... ok, then maybe it isn't a simple swap. I don't have a portable, so I have to go off the PDF tech guide I have. It doesn't indicate anything special about the drive, so I made what must be a wrong assumption that it was the standard SCSI drive Apple used in everything else of that era. The only picture of the drive in the PDF doesn't show enough detail to know what the connector is like. And Seagate doesn't seem to admit the CP-3045 (taken from the pic on ebay) exists. I did however locate a page on lowendmac.com that shows how to build a 50 pin to 34 pin converter cable to replace the Portable's drive with a more standard 50 pin SCSI drive. It was listed under the pages for the Mac Portable. -chris From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 12:15:10 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 and Full-height 5.25 Floppy Drives Message-ID: <200406071715.KAA01311@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "dave04a@dunfield.com" > >Hi Bob, > >I would be interested in this - I Am located in Ottawa, and am planning to >be in Toronto later this month or early next month - where exactly are you >located? > >And I have a pair of TM100-2 drives sitting on the shelf! > >The Horizon is a nice machine - used to have one years ago, and have not >been >able to find another... I have a NorthStar disk controller installed in my >Altair, which runs NorthStar DOS as well as my own DMF system. > >There's a simulator for this machine on my "museum" page: > http://www.dunfield.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Hi Dave You mean: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html Anyway, great stuff Dave. Dwight > >This will let you boot up NorthStar DOS on your PC! >Also have most of the NorthStar manuals and a lot of other reference info. >scanned and posted there, which may be of use to you. > >Regards, >Dave Dunfield > >[posting from web client - so sig is not attached] > >Original Message: >----------------- >From: RMaxwell@atlantissi.com >Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:49:20 -0400 >To: cctech@classiccmp.org >Subject: IBM 5150 and Full-height 5.25" Floppy Drives > > > I've been restoring a NorthStar Horizon that had its 5.25" full-height >double-sided floppy drives removed long ago. A friend has given me another >computer with those drives, but when I inspected it, I realized that it's a >true-blue IBM 5150 PC in very good condition! The 5.25" drives' front >panels are marked with the "IBM" logo, which makes them less-than-genuine >for installation into a pre-IBM microcomputer. > > There may be parties that would protest stripping one "classic" to restore >another: I'm hoping if there might be someone interested in both/either: > > - acquiring the 5150 as is (256K RAM [4 rows of 64K] on motherboard, plus >256K more on expansion card, no monitor); > - supplying (Tandon TM100-2?) full-height DS 5.25" drives for the Horizon. > > The big hole in the Horizon's front panel really calls out for full-height >drives. Any help/ideas/suggestions? I'm located in Southern Ontario, >Canada and am contemplating attending VCF East. > >Bob Maxwell >rmaxwell@atlantissi.com > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------- >mail2web - Check your email from the web at >http://mail2web.com/ . > > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 12:27:55 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Looking for Pittman's Tiny Basic Message-ID: <200406071727.KAA01334@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Bob I told you to be patient. I found the stuff over the weekend. Email me directly so that I can send the stuff to you that won't overflow your inbox. I have what looks like an original tape dump, the same code done in Intel HEX and a disassembly of the code. It has a small chunk of code to the console I/O for a KIM but I'm sure one can reconfigure it to work under most any environment. The disassembly only has the address table at the end done as DB's. His code did an address interpreter, similar to how Forth traditionally did things. I'd ment to replace these with address pointers but I've been to lazy. If you send this to Tom, make sure that he gets the credit right this time. It is "Dwight Elvey" ( the second time I've sent it ). Dwight >From: "Bob Applegate" > >Tom offered to send me a paper tape if I could read it. I asked on this list and >got a lot of offers to help... thanks to everyone who wanted to help! > >Today I got email from Tom again. He moved several years ago, and just went >to look for the tapes. The box labeled TINY BASIC had paper tapes, but not >for Tiny. He's optimistic that he might still have the original tapes somewhere >and he plans on looking for them. The only version he found so far has been >for the 1802. > >In the mean time, if anyone on the list has any version of Tom's TB, he might >appreciate getting copies, even if it's just the binaries. I'm desperately seeking >the 6502 version, so hopefully someone can get a copy to Tom. > >He must have sold quite a few copies, considering they were originally $5 each >($5 for software? Amazing!). Hopefully someone has some old copies laying >around. > >Bob > From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 7 12:51:06 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Looking for Pittman's Tiny Basic In-Reply-To: <200406071727.KAA01334@clulw009.amd.com> from "Dwight K. Elvey" at "Jun 7, 4 10:27:55 am" Message-ID: <200406071751.KAA09290@floodgap.com> > I told you to be patient. I found the stuff over the weekend. > Email me directly so that I can send the stuff to you that > won't overflow your inbox. I have what looks like an original > tape dump, the same code done in Intel HEX and a disassembly > of the code. It has a small chunk of code to the console I/O > for a KIM but I'm sure one can reconfigure it to work under > most any environment. I'd be interested in this as well! -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- MOVIE IDEA: Blazing E-mail Signatures -------------------------------------- From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 12:57:11 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted References: <012001c44c05$0cead300$6e7ba8c0@p933> <20040606235117.GD26360@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: What would be considered a good use of older laptops? Are the machines in the Computer Museum being under-utilized? (http://www.computerhistory.org/) I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are a LOT of laptops (and other computers) out there, and there is a certain vintage that I wouldn't consider classic, or collectable, but I wouldn't consider them usable either. Most 386 and early 486 laptops come to mind. The cost of Pentium laptops are so low the 386/486 machines are basically free. Most charitable organizations won't accept machines that old. Here's an interesting article on where some restaraunts get the junk they put on their walls: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/021115.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "R. D. Davis" To: ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 06, 2004 7:51 PM Subject: Re: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted > Quothe Erik S. Klein, from writings of Sun, Jun 06, 2004 at 01:30:02PM -0700: > > TGI Friday's restaurants. We are about to remodel all 500+ of our > > domestic TGI Friday's restaurants with an updated decor package, to > > include vintage laptops. Can you help me? Please let me know. > > That is indeed a sick thought; a perverse waste of laptops. Darned > biz'droids... mumble, grumble... What will become of those laptops > when they remodel the restaraunts again and no longer want them? > Recycling bins or landfills? > > -- > Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: > All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & > her other creatures, using dogma to justify such > www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 7 13:14:20 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040607111310.G85559@newshell.lmi.net> > 2> > . . . > I'd love to have it, opening bid of $9.99, but I'm sure it will go above > my price range before it closes (and now that I've pointed it out here, > that's almost a sure event). . . . and TGI Friday's wants it to nail to the wall From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 15:54:25 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale Message-ID: <20040607205425.1558.qmail@web52809.mail.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm looking to help finance a GPS by selling my laser printer. It's a DEClaser 3500 with FIVE extra cartridges. Location is central New Jersey. The printer works well. - Evan Koblentz From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Jun 7 16:07:11 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale Message-ID: <0406072107.AA23530@ivan.Harhan.ORG> evan wrote: > Hi, I'm looking to help finance a GPS by selling my laser printer. It's a > DEClaser 3500 with FIVE extra cartridges. Hmm, I'm not familiar with DEClaser 3500 as it's newer than my most recent DECdirect catalog (1993). Is it PostScript or not? What interface(s)? Has to be PostScript with EIA-232 or DEC-423 interface for me to consider buying. MS From pzachary at sasquatch.com Sun Jun 6 17:38:41 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pavl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: more on printing terminals In-Reply-To: <0qpt8cwwur.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> References: <0qpt8cwwur.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <04060615384100.00906@localhost.localdomain> I am not aware of a printing terminal with correction, but if you like printing terminals don't miss the NEC spinwriter (mine is a 7725), you COULD always use a computer to do the correcting :) or a video terminal and dump to a printer, oh wait that's a computer too... Pavl_ On Sunday 06 June 2004 08:05 am, you wrote: > I've been getting interested in printing terminals. > (I am seeking professional help for this, but meanwhile...). > > Is there a device which is a good modern (correcting) typewriter, > true letter-quality (daisy, thimble, golfball) printer, and also > a terminal? > > Plenty of typewriters were made with serial or parallel ports, > but I don't know of anything with both correction tape and a control key... > > Correcting Selectric II's came out around 1973, and the LA36 Decwriter > II in 1974, with the Selectric III and LA100 still being available at > least into the mid-eighties... was there really no perceived market > for a product that combined the strengths of both? > > --akb From brendle at ems.psu.edu Mon Jun 7 08:57:14 2004 From: brendle at ems.psu.edu (Jeff Brendle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9461A5A6-B88A-11D8-8E58-000A27917E58@ems.psu.edu> I have a vague recollection that the old 40/80MB Connor & Quantum SCSIs had "stiction" problems back around '90 +/-2 yrs or so, too far back for me to remember clearly, but I recall situations where depending on how warm a drive was it would randomly spin up or not & tricks that could force it (to get a backup). In any case, if the only thing wrong is a bad drive, that is fixable. Not that I see any real use in such a beast. But for those interested.... just be sure you can find a working drive to replace it & a copy of the OS for it (probably System 6 or 7). Cheers! -j On Jun 7, 2004, at 9:45 AM, chris wrote: >> Maybe not -- it's apparently not bootable. Dead disk, it seems. > >> From the description, it sounds like it is just another dead Apple >> SCSI > drive. I have gone thru stacks of these 40 and 80 MB drives from Apple > (all Conner I believe, just like the one pictured). They seem to have > motor failures and stop spinning. > > But the Portable uses a standard 3.5" SCSI drive, so it is fairly > trivial > to swap the drive. Granted it lessens the "value" if it carries a > different drive, but since I've already been outbid, I'll stick with > the > idea that it will exceed my price threshold before it sells. :-) > > -chris > > > Jeff Brendle Office: 313 EESB/(814)865-3257/fax 865-3191 Desktop Support Spv. Home: #210 Parkgate 349 Toftrees Ave. Penn State - Coll. of E&MS State College, PA / (814)861-8180 Mailto:bli@psu.edu AOL/MSN/Yahoo! IM - JSBrendle From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 7 16:38:01 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <0406072107.AA23530@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > evan wrote: > > > Hi, I'm looking to help finance a GPS by selling my laser printer. It's a > > DEClaser 3500 with FIVE extra cartridges. > > Hmm, I'm not familiar with DEClaser 3500 as it's newer than my most recent > DECdirect catalog (1993). Is it PostScript or not? What interface(s)? > > Has to be PostScript with EIA-232 or DEC-423 interface for me to consider > buying. You can always use a terminal server to fix the connection issue. --f From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 7 16:54:20 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: What is bigger than a "super Jumbo Colossal" olive? (was: 8" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1086645259.3073.65.camel@dhcp-251007.mobile.uci.edu> On Fri, 2004-06-04 at 16:05, Tony Duell wrote: > > PS: To this day I can't remember which is which, EXTENDED or EXPANDED > > memory, thankfully there's no need to any more. > > Oh that one's easy... exPanded memory is the Paged one. ... and you're the only one to address the original point, the obfuscatory marketese that blurred two distinctly different memory features into one meaningless blob of verbiage. > And classic computer people surely do have to remember this (heck, I have > expanded memory on my HP150...) Not me! I've no interest in the Beige Era! From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Jun 7 16:58:03 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale Message-ID: <0406072158.AA23598@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > You can always use a terminal server to fix the connection issue. ... except that to connect to a terminal server, the printer needs to have a serial interface, which is what I was asking for in first place. MS From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 7 17:14:06 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <0406072107.AA23530@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040607221406.2982.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Some of those interface details are over my head, in terms of technical knowledge. I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. Better yet, here is the user manual: http://www.xenya.si/sup/info/digital/MDS/jun99/Cd3/PRINTER/ Click the ninth file -- D350PUGA.PDF --- Michael Sokolov wrote: > evan wrote: > > > Hi, I'm looking to help finance a GPS by selling my laser printer. It's a > > DEClaser 3500 with FIVE extra cartridges. > > Hmm, I'm not familiar with DEClaser 3500 as it's newer than my most recent > DECdirect catalog (1993). Is it PostScript or not? What interface(s)? > > Has to be PostScript with EIA-232 or DEC-423 interface for me to consider > buying. > > MS From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 7 17:16:00 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: CRT pinout Message-ID: <200406072217.SAA02150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Does anyone know where I can find the pinout for a 3RP1 CRT? I have the CRT and I have most of the important numbers (V/in deflection, final anode voltage, that sort of thing) but I do not have the pinout. I went a-googling, but all I found was a few places that had the silly things for sale. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 7 17:25:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: CRT pinout References: <200406072217.SAA02150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16580.60227.661363.655367@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: der> Does anyone know where I can find the pinout for a 3RP1 CRT? I der> have the CRT and I have most of the important numbers (V/in der> deflection, final anode voltage, that sort of thing) but I do der> not have the pinout. der> I went a-googling, but all I found was a few places that had the der> silly things for sale. This page has it: http://frank.pocnet.net/sheets31.html (and up a level for lots more...) paul From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 7 17:27:22 2004 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: CRT pinout In-Reply-To: <200406072217.SAA02150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.0.20040607172317.02320d20@mail.ubanproductions.com> The 3RP1 is a duodecal design with a 12E base and the pinout is as follows: 1 Heater 2 Grid 3 Cathode 4 Anode1 5 6 Top 7 Bottom 8 Anode2 9 Right 10 Left 11 12 Heater --tom At 06:16 PM 6/7/2004 -0400, you wrote: >Does anyone know where I can find the pinout for a 3RP1 CRT? I have >the CRT and I have most of the important numbers (V/in deflection, >final anode voltage, that sort of thing) but I do not have the pinout. > >I went a-googling, but all I found was a few places that had the silly >things for sale. > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 17:34:21 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:18 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <0406072158.AA23598@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <002f01c44cdf$93e5deb0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > > You can always use a terminal server to fix the connection issue. > > ... except that to connect to a terminal server, the printer > needs to have a serial interface, which is what I was asking > for in first place. Serial is possible for a 3500, but I'm not sure that it is a base option (i.e. guaranteed to be there). Same goes for the NIC interface (there's also an Appletalk one IIRC). There is also a DECserver 250 which does have one parallel interface for a printer: I forget whether it was centronics or dataproducts or something else. (Not entirely relevant here since the 3500 won't have whichever of those old interfaces the DS250 had, but since it cropped up ...) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 7 17:49:41 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Only because those devices were repairable and because there > are people > around who can repair them!. I would be very suprised if DVD > players last > in the same way (for one thing they're a darn sight worse > made than, say, > tape recorders, and for another they use a lot more custom > parts, and for > yet another there are no service manuals available). I do have one or two service manuals but nothing with a schematic. Admittedly a schematic may be of little use given the nature of the components (a significant proportion of which may well be made of unobtanium). Having said that, the only problem with such devices that I've had is one portable CD player that got dropped and suffered some broken plastic. Having received a little mechanical care, it now works as well as it ever did. In my experience these things seem to suffer from mechanical failure rather than electronic failure. (So, yes, the mechanical side is cheap to keep the costs down but the electronics seem to be OK ... chips mostly just keep working!) Modern cassette players (OTOH) seem to need a constant diet of fresh tapes :-( > Surface mounting (apart from BGAs!) is only hard to replace > if you're a > salesdroid!. Now that I look, I cannot find the link, but there is at least one place which will allegedly re-ball the IC for you. You obviously still will have some problems actually getting the IC back onto anything without access to a somewhat expensive rework station. (so that 7410 PPC chip will remain just a pretty ornament for now ...) > That is a separate rant. Yes things are too cheap (If they were made > correctly, and priced sensibly, then they would be worth > repairing, and > they would be able to be repaired...) I think you are in a definite minority with this. I'm with Einstein: "things should be as cheap as possible, and no cheaper" :-) I'm happy that my washing machine is relatively cheap (bad example: easily repaired anyway). I'd be even happier if my cars were cheaper. I'd probably pay an extra ?10 to have my portable CD player made with a metal case, but it's worth no more than that to me. > Well, to me something is not obsolete if it still does the job.... Agreed. When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will almost certainly be a flat-screen (the weight and space savings alone make this an easy win) but now that it's on the desk I have no real reason to care about those potential savings ... > If at all. It worries me -- a lot -- that almost nobody these > days has > any sort of clue at all about computer hardware. I really > wonder who will > be designing better computers in the future (or will we be stuck with > incremental modifications on the PC for ever :-() Our hardware engineers seem to be able to build stuff that works. Our stuff looks nothing like a PC so it's not a modification of anything else. They may not be able to do much with valves (I have no idea, I'm just assuming ...) but that's not a terrible short-coming these days. You just must be meeting the wrong professionals. Comes from being in London and the Banking effect I guess :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 18:12:32 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: from "Jason McBrien" at Jun 7, 4 01:57:11 pm Message-ID: > > What would be considered a good use of older laptops? Are the machines in Running programs :-). I don't want to sound silly, but they did useful work once, and they can still do that same useful work. Not everyone needs the latest bloatware, not matter what certain software houses try to make you believe. Obvious applicaitons (depending on processor speed and memory) include portable text entry (you don't need much processor power to run vi :-)), a portable terminal (something that I find very useful), if you have a CD-ROM drive, then running acrobat to read/display all the service manuals, etc that come on CD-ROMs (A laptop is a lot easier to balance on top of whatever you're reparing than a desktop machine), etc, etc, etc, etc. My most powerful laptop is the HP Portable+ (8MHz 8086 with 800+K RAM), and I do useful work on that machine. I am sure a 386 or 486 machine could be useful too. > the Computer Museum being under-utilized? (http://www.computerhistory.org/) It's not so much 'underutilising' them as not using them at all, and in fact damaging them so they will never be used again. > I'm not disagreeing with you, but there are a LOT of laptops (and other > computers) out there, and there is a certain vintage that I wouldn't > consider classic, or collectable, but I wouldn't consider them usable I don't consider them classic either, but they surely can be useful tools... > either. Most 386 and early 486 laptops come to mind. The cost of Pentium > laptops are so low the 386/486 machines are basically free. Most charitable Well, that's not the case round here. I've never seen a cheap laptop, no matter how old... > organizations won't accept machines that old. Then they are mildly clueless! -tony From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 7 18:29:39 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! In-Reply-To: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Antonio Carlini may have mentioned these words: >[snip] >Agreed. When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will >almost certainly be a flat-screen..... Argh! Speaking of counter-monkey salesdroid terminology... You do know that there are "perfectly-flat" CRT technologies, right? ( I have a few of my own, but have seen examples from 15" up to [at least] 22".)[1] And generally, the flatscreen CRTs (in my experience) are actually a bit heavier than a similar-sized "bubblevision" tubes (that's what we call older monitors). I suppose that could be because we only handle higher-quality monitors, however... "Flat-screen" != "LCD" or "TFT". Well, I guess I just joined the ranks with "Grumpy Ol' Fred"... ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] Come to think of it, my Tekky 'scope has a "flat-screen" too!!! :-P -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Bugs of a feather flock together." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Russell Nelson zmerch@30below.com | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 7 18:31:25 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406072341.TAA02778@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> What would be considered a good use of older laptops? > [T]hey did useful work once, and they can still do that same useful > work. Bingo. (I would have said this myself, except I figured nobody _here_, of all places, needed to hear it....) > My most powerful laptop is the HP Portable+ (8MHz 8086 with 800+K > RAM), and I do useful work on that machine. I am sure a 386 or 486 > machine could be useful too. My laptop collection consists of about four HP Omnibooks with various degrees of damage, from none to relatively bad (some of them were shipped with insufficient packing - I keep them around for parts). About the only thing it doesn't do that I might want is X, and that's because I value my sanity too much to try to understand XFree86 rather than because there's anything inherently impossible about it. >> Most 386 and early 486 laptops come to mind. The cost of Pentium >> laptops are so low the 386/486 machines are basically free. > Well, that's not the case round here. I've never seen a cheap > laptop, no matter how old... The Omnibooks I mention above were obtained for free. I spent the last half of 2002 working for Universitetet i Troms? (the University of Troms?, in northern Norway). They had a pile of something like 40 of those Omnibooks that the University had decided were old enough to be considered worthless. Fortunately, the staff did not entirely agree, and thus kept them in a corner of an office rather than tipping them into the skip; their attitude was basically "here, take two, they're small". I did have to put a bigger disk in it - the disk was only about half a gig, which was too small for what I wanted - but that was all it needed. >> Most charitable organizations won't accept machines that old. > Then they are mildly clueless! No...they just know their "market". Most people - and approximately all people who go to charitable organizations for computers - are not interested in computers for their own sake, but rather as tools to generate Word documents for granting agencies and the like, and as such, machines not capable of running the latest bloatware _are_ basically worthless to them. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 7 18:56:15 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200406072358.TAA02870@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will almost >> certainly be a flat-screen..... > You do know that there are "perfectly-flat" CRT technologies, right? Well, I didn't write that, but... ...yes. However, I see nothing wrong with using "flat" to refer to something that's, oh, say, 15"x18"x4" as compared to, say, 15"x18"x20". Unless you mean there are flat-screen CRTs that have also done away with the long neck? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Mon Jun 7 19:20:34 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale Message-ID: <0406080020.AA23893@ivan.Harhan.ORG> evan wrote: > Some of those interface details are over my head, in terms of technical > knowledge. I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas. (This is ClassisCmp, remember, people use Classic computers here.) But I've read the manual and see that it speaks PostScript and that there are serial and Ethernet options available, while the base unit only has the damn parallel interface. Does yours have either of the serial or Ethernet options? Also the manual is conspicously silent about whether or not it supports duplex printing, so I suspect that it doesn't. Does it? If it doesn't, I'm unlikely to be interested in it, as in that case I would rather buy an LN06R (DEClaser 2250) or LN08R (DEClaser 3250) from a DEC dealer, both of which are PostScript printers with duplex capability and with EIA-232 serial interfaces in addition to the damn pee sea parallel. MS From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 7 19:28:02 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! Message-ID: >"Flat-screen" != "LCD" or "TFT". > >Well, I guess I just joined the ranks with "Grumpy Ol' Fred"... ;-) You aren't alone. Seeing as I own a Flat Screen TV that is not of any of the LCD or Plasma or whatever technologies... but is rather a good tried and true CRT. I myself don't call LCD monitor's "Flat Screen", I call them what they are LCD Screens (although I do tend to lump all the LCD like technologies into one term "LCD" even though it is not technically correct to do so) -chris From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 7 19:29:05 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale Message-ID: <200406080029.RAA01667@clulw009.amd.com> >From: msokolov@ivan.harhan.org ---snip--- > >Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas. (This is ClassisCmp, >remember, people use Classic computers here.) But I've read the manual >and see that it speaks PostScript and that there are serial and Ethernet >options available, while the base unit only has the damn parallel interface. > >Does yours have either of the serial or Ethernet options? > >Also the manual is conspicously silent about whether or not it supports >duplex printing, so I suspect that it doesn't. Does it? Hi Interesting, my HP3si does all of these. Now, if I could just get it to make a clean print. Dwight From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 7 19:30:02 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! Message-ID: >Well, I didn't write that, but... > >...yes. However, I see nothing wrong with using "flat" to refer to >something that's, oh, say, 15"x18"x4" as compared to, say, 15"x18"x20". > >Unless you mean there are flat-screen CRTs that have also done away >with the long neck? Wouldn't that really be a "Flat Monitor" then? The screen may be flat, but so is the screen to a number of other CRT based monitors. I have one such TV, and I have two monitors that the screen is flat (although they are not flat screen technology, rather they are flat as a side effect of the touch screen that is installed on them). Flat Screen CRT is just that, a CRT with a flat screen. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 7 19:33:55 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? Message-ID: >But for those interested.... just be sure you can find a working >drive to replace it & a copy of the OS for it (probably System 6 or 7). >Cheers! LowEndMac.com has a small set of directions of adapting the cable to match a standard 50 pin narrow SCSI (the more normal SCSI for Macs of the time). And System 6.0.8 and System 7.5.5 are both freely downloadable from Apple's web site. -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 7 19:37:57 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040607172416.I96762@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > >Agreed. When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will > >almost certainly be a flat-screen..... > Argh! Speaking of counter-monkey salesdroid terminology... > You do know that there are "perfectly-flat" CRT technologies, right? ( I >. . . > "Flat-screen" != "LCD" or "TFT". > Well, I guess I just joined the ranks with "Grumpy Ol' Fred"... ;-) Well, my current living room TV has a flat faced CRT. It's the first TV that I've bought new, or with a built-in tuner, in 40+ years. Even in the 1970s, used composite monitors connected to the tuner of a VCR produced better image than TVs But, "flat" COULD be used to refer to thickness rather than shape of the face. Howabout the FCC conspiring to force EVERYBODY to buy a new TV with their efforts to render all current technology obsolete? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 7 19:39:08 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! In-Reply-To: <200406072358.TAA02870@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607201926.03c53470@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that der Mouse may have mentioned these words: > >> When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will almost > >> certainly be a flat-screen..... > > You do know that there are "perfectly-flat" CRT technologies, right? > >Well, I didn't write that, but... Did the attribution actually say you'd had? My "Spewdora" gave the correct attribution on my copy, but that certainly doesn't mean that there's no bugs in Spewdora... If it did come thru wrong, my apologies! >...yes. However, I see nothing wrong with using "flat" to refer to >something that's, oh, say, 15"x18"x4" as compared to, say, 15"x18"x20". I do - being flat has nothing to do with being thin. Of course, I also object to seeing "Flat-screen" meaning "LCD" as there are many other flat-screen-based technologies that have little or nothing in common with LCDs -- Plasma displays (yes, both old and new versions), rear projection TV monitors, OLED displays, etc. Those all have flat screens, too. [[ Of course, my screen door has a flat screen, too! I'll start calling that a flat-screen! Whoohoo!!! In the wintertime, I keep my beer just outside the flat-screen, to keep it cold. ;-PPPP ]] [1] >Unless you mean there are flat-screen CRTs that have also done away >with the long neck? Altho there are several "short-neck" varieties of monitor tubes (with both flat and non-flat faces) it's by no means as thin as an LCD. Generally, a 19" short-neck monitor is slightly thinner than a standard 17" monitor, from what I've seen. Also, from what I've seen, just because the neck is shorter, they generally aren't any lighter! My point is: The language (especially around technology) has been bastardized enough - for all those who become up-in-arms over the media's bastardization of the term 'hacker,' IBMs bastardization of the term "Personal Computer," Radio Shacks bastardization of the term "Color Computer," etc. etc. etc....... Oy. Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] I learned over the weekend: Don't mix Vioxx & Beer. Bad combo... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | JC: "Like those people in Celeronville!" sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Me: "Don't you mean Silicon Valley???" zmerch@30below.com | JC: "Yea, that's the place!" | JC == Jeremy Christian From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 7 19:45:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <0406080020.AA23893@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406080020.AA23893@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200406080050.UAA03339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. > Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas. (This is > ClassisCmp, remember, people use Classic computers here.) But peecee-style parallel ports are not x86-specific; I've got plenty of SPARCstations with basically-PC-compatible parallel ports. You may dislike them; you may even dislike them because PCs popularized them. But it's not fair to imply that they are a PC-only thing. Besides, lots of peecees are on-topic by now. (I even, once, saw a _really_ nicely built PC-class machine. I think it was one of the first so-called portables, what today would be called a luggable. It was about XT-class, 8086 I think; nothing particularly interesting from a software perspective. But it was a _beautiful_ piece of engineering. Despite its age, everything worked perfectly as far as I could tell, and it looked like the sort of thing that could jounce out the back of a moving van and suffer nothing worse than a scratched case. Obviously built before the cheap clone knockoffs pushed quality down through the floor.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 7 19:58:17 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607201926.03c53470@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040607201926.03c53470@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200406080103.VAA03416@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will almost >>>> certainly be a flat-screen..... >>> You do know that there are "perfectly-flat" CRT technologies, right? >> Well, I didn't write that, but... > Did the attribution actually say you'd had? No. I simply tend to attach such a disclaimer when I reply to something that is specifically addressed in the second person ("You") when responding to something I didn't write. >> ...yes. However, I see nothing wrong with using "flat" to refer to >> something that's, oh, say, 15"x18"x4" as compared to, say, >> 15"x18"x20". > I do - being flat has nothing to do with being thin. The sense in which I consider it reasonable can be found by asking dictionary.com for "flat": 3. Having a relatively broad surface in relation to thickness or depth: a flat board. Not that that vitiates your point that the term has been rather severely abused and could do with a more precision in its use. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Mon Jun 7 20:17:10 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 08, 2004 12:12:32 AM Message-ID: <20040608011710.9B6B310B2B56@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > Obvious applicaitons (depending on processor speed and memory) include > portable text entry (you don't need much processor power to run vi :-)), > a portable terminal (something that I find very useful), if you have a > CD-ROM drive, then running acrobat to read/display all the service > manuals, etc that come on CD-ROMs (A laptop is a lot easier to balance on > top of whatever you're reparing than a desktop machine), etc, etc, etc, etc. True, but installing software on said laptops may be a pain. I have a Toshiba 1900C, with 4M RAM and a 120M harddrive. It took the better part of two days to get some semblance of Linux installed on the system, since one day was spent combing the Internet trying to find a Linux distribution that would *install* (not run, *install*) with 4M RAM (the oldest Slackware I found required 8M for install). I did get a system installed and it was a good test of Unix skills, but it's nothing I want to repeat any time soon. Yes, I could have installed MS-DOS on the system (rather easily in fact) but a) does SSH even *exist* for MS-DOS (not Windows, MS-DOS)? b) Cygwin wouldn't even *fit* on the harddrive, much less run in 4M. c) I'm more confortable with TCP/IP under Unix than MS-DOS. -spc (And it isn't all that fast ... ) From jpero at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 7 16:24:52 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! In-Reply-To: <200406072358.TAA02870@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040608012444.NXAE26419.tomts10-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > > Unless you mean there are flat-screen CRTs that have also done away > with the long neck? Short neck looks awful. I prefer quality 90 deg deflection CRTs. Flat or round doesn't matter long as it has very tight misconvergence error and below .28 mm dot pitch. Without neck and uses same idea to kick electrons to hit glowing minerals that basically plamsa. Pricy. LCD is getting there, speed is about there now, remaining problem is price. OLED is coming. Cheers, Wizard > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 20:42:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 7, 4 11:49:41 pm Message-ID: > > > > Only because those devices were repairable and because there=20 > > are people=20 > > around who can repair them!. I would be very suprised if DVD=20 > > players last=20 > > in the same way (for one thing they're a darn sight worse=20 > > made than, say,=20 > > tape recorders, and for another they use a lot more custom=20 > > parts, and for=20 > > yet another there are no service manuals available).=20 > > I do have one or two service manuals but nothing with > a schematic. Admittedly a schematic may be of little Err, I really can't call something a 'service manual' if it doesn't include a schematic (OK, for the pedants out there, a service manual for something electronic). It's a 'board swapper guide' ;-). > use given the nature of the components (a significant > proportion of which may well be made of unobtanium). Not so. If you have several identical broken devices, you have much better chance of getting one working one if you break it down to smaller parts (suppose there are n ICs on the board, if any one is dead then the board won't work, but if you have 2 boards with different dead ICs, you can make one working board out of the the pair). A schematic is _very_ useful in figuring out which IC is dead... > Having said that, the only problem with such devices > that I've had is one portable CD player that got > dropped and suffered some broken plastic. Having > received a little mechanical care, it now works > as well as it ever did. In my experience these > things seem to suffer from mechanical failure > rather than electronic failure. (So, yes, the I've had to repair both on consumer electronic devices. Sure, the mechanical stuff wears out (which is why you change the pinch roller in your VCR every couple of yuears if you have any sense (to prevent tape mangling), but chips do fail. And in my experience, the more complicated a chip, the more likely it is to fail (it may well be more reliable than the board of 100 chips that it replaced, but that's not the point here). > mechanical side is cheap to keep the costs down > but the electronics seem to be OK ... chips mostly > just keep working!) But capacitors certainly don't. Nor do power-handling devices (chopper transistors, motor drive ICs, etc). > > > That is a separate rant. Yes things are too cheap (If they were made=20 > > correctly, and priced sensibly, then they would be worth=20 > > repairing, and=20 > > they would be able to be repaired...) > > I think you are in a definite minority with this. I'm with Very liekly. I'm in a minority for most things... > Einstein: "things should be as cheap as possible, and no=20 > cheaper" :-) I'm happy that my washing machine is relatively The quote I've heard is '... as simple as possible and no simpler'. That is not the same thing. > cheap (bad example: easily repaired anyway). I'd be even Odd that I like Asko washing machines.... > happier if my cars were cheaper. I'd probably pay an extra I've had enough of expensive products, like cars, that cut corners, and save perhaps \pounds 50 on the price, but have plastic knobs that fall off, screws in silly places, and the like. I can assure you that if I'm about to spend \pounds 10000 or whatever on a car, I don't care about +/- \pounds 50. I do care when I have to keep on going back to the parts counter to get some trivial component that was underspecified... > Agreed. When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will > almost certainly be a flat-screen (the weight and space savings > alone make this an easy win) but now that it's on the desk I > have no real reason to care about those potential savings ... I much prefer CRTs to LCDs. At the moment I find them a lot clearer (that may improve), and they're certainly a lot easier to repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 7 21:06:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <200406080050.UAA03339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 7, 4 08:45:26 pm Message-ID: > But peecee-style parallel ports are not x86-specific; I've got plenty > of SPARCstations with basically-PC-compatible parallel ports. I built a little adapter (in one of those boxes designed to take a DB connector at each end) to turn an HP82165 GPIO connector into a PC-like printer port. I can then use a normal PC printer cable and printer on my HP71... In case anyone's interested, here's the wirelist... HP82165 PC Printer Cable (DB25-P) (DB25-S) DA0 5)----------------------------(2 D0 DA1 6)----------------------------(3 D1 DA2 7)----------------------------(4 D2 DA3 8)----------------------------(5 D3 DA4 22)----------------------------(6 D4 DA5 23)----------------------------(7 D5 DA6 24)----------------------------(8 D6 DA7 25)----------------------------(9 D7 DAVO 14)----------------------------(1 Stb/ RDYI 1)----------------------------(11 Busy Gnd 21)--+----------------------+--(17 SlctIn | | DACI 2)--+ +--(18 Gnd | +--(19 Gnd | +--(20 Gnd | +--(21 Gnd | +--(22 Gnd | +--(23 Gnd | +--(24 Gnd | +--(25 Gnd > Besides, lots of peecees are on-topic by now. (I even, once, saw a > _really_ nicely built PC-class machine. I think it was one of the Some of the original IBM machines were fairly solidly made. The 5155 portable will stand up to real use (and some misuse...). Pity the electronic design was such a joke... -tony From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 21:42:50 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C Message-ID: Hi all, Anybody know how to access the above running under either DOS or Linux? It has a 5.25" floppy connector on it. I don't have any drivers for it (do I need them?), just a QS.EXE (QuicStream?) archive DOS app which pukes with a divide overflow error during its "Initializing tape drives" phase. Knoppix doesn't even see it during HW detection. Any config pointers? Thanks. From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 22:15:25 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: FA: Clean Epson PX-8 with docs and boxed CX-20 coupler available Message-ID: via VCM auction http://marketplace.vintage.org/bid.cfm?ad=933 if you're interested in that sort of thing From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 7 22:12:00 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9B703AC2-B8F9-11D8-BC1B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Jun 5, 2004, at 4:05 PM, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> Careful frame by frame viewing shows a computer I had once, and wish I >> had again.. >> >> The Televideo (mumble model cuz I forgot) CGA+10mb IBM AT >> Or the next one, Televideo portable... :^) > > Sounds like the TS-803H and the TPC-1. > > - don > > I think the TS-803H was a CPM machine... Televideo made those and they looked the same but never a cga like screen Monitor that tilts attached to a vertical motherboard with two floppies stacked sideways (short edges - stacked tall) TPC was the portable - I don't think they ever made a cpm portable. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Jun 7 22:13:06 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040608031306.GB4085@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 12:12:32AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > What would be considered a good use of older laptops? Are the machines in > > Running programs :-). I don't want to sound silly, but they did useful > work once, and they can still do that same useful work. Not everyone > needs the latest bloatware, not matter what certain software houses try > to make you believe. I'm still using a Compaq 286 laptop to drive my EPROM/Device programmer. I also use an XT-class laptop with dual 720K floppies and a Xircom PE3 "pocket Ethernet adapter" and Kermit as a portable "telnet terminal" The most expensive of these was $15 with a carrying case. Batteries are an issue, but the XT laptop uses a wad of C-cell-sized NiCds - easy enough to rebuild. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 08-Jun-2004 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77 F (-60.6 C) Windchill -114.7 F (-81.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.6 kts Grid 036 Barometer 668.8 mb (11050. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com Mon Jun 7 22:58:09 2004 From: jdaviscctalk at soupwizard.com (Jeff Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: PDP-11/03 backplane Message-ID: <40C53951.3020608@soupwizard.com> It's got about a day to go, no bids, starting at $25. I think the 11/03 models are rarer than the later ones so I thought I'd mention it here. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=4135473360&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Also has other PDP-11 stuff for sale on Ebay. Btw, I don't know the seller - they listed "vax" in a series of keywords in the ad text, which is how I found it. After reading the recent "VMS vs BSD on VAX" I'm inpired to drag out the vaxstation 4000/90 chassis I have and see if it works (now that I found a serial console cable to test it with), so I was browsing around looking for parts. For the record, if I can get it running, mine will run {Open|Net}BSD. Jeff From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 7 23:10:39 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: PDP-11/03 backplane In-Reply-To: <40C53951.3020608@soupwizard.com> References: <40C53951.3020608@soupwizard.com> Message-ID: <40C53C3F.4070903@mdrconsult.com> Jeff Davis wrote: > Btw, I don't know the seller - they listed "vax" in a series of keywords > in the ad text, which is how I found it. After reading the recent "VMS > vs BSD on VAX" I'm inpired to drag out the vaxstation 4000/90 chassis I > have and see if it works (now that I found a serial console cable to > test it with), so I was browsing around looking for parts. For the > record, if I can get it running, mine will run {Open|Net}BSD. Does NetBSD v1.6 still hose the firmware's autoboot function? Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 7 23:13:18 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <200406080050.UAA03339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <0406080020.AA23893@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200406080050.UAA03339@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200406072313.19349.pat@computer-refuge.org> der Mouse declared on Monday 07 June 2004 07:45 pm: > >> I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. > > > > Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas. (This is > > ClassisCmp, remember, people use Classic computers here.) > > But peecee-style parallel ports are not x86-specific; I've got plenty > of SPARCstations with basically-PC-compatible parallel ports. > > You may dislike them; you may even dislike them because PCs > popularized them. But it's not fair to imply that they are a PC-only > thing. Centronics-style parallel ports existed before the PC. Also, you could alway get/make a serial to parallel converter to connect the printer to an RS-232C compatible serial port. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 7 23:19:40 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: PDP-11/03 backplane In-Reply-To: <40C53C3F.4070903@mdrconsult.com> References: <40C53951.3020608@soupwizard.com> <40C53C3F.4070903@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200406072319.40356.pat@computer-refuge.org> Doc Shipley declared on Monday 07 June 2004 11:10 pm: > Jeff Davis wrote: > > Btw, I don't know the seller - they listed "vax" in a series of > > keywords in the ad text, which is how I found it. After reading the > > recent "VMS vs BSD on VAX" I'm inpired to drag out the vaxstation > > 4000/90 chassis I have and see if it works (now that I found a > > serial console cable to test it with), so I was browsing around > > looking for parts. For the record, if I can get it running, mine > > will run {Open|Net}BSD. > > Does NetBSD v1.6 still hose the firmware's autoboot function? I think that's been fixed, there apparently was a patch to fix it submitted in 2002: http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2002/04/28/0008.html Of course, you could always just ask the port-vax at lists.netbsd.org list. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 8 00:00:03 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: PDP-11/03 backplane In-Reply-To: <200406072319.40356.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <40C53951.3020608@soupwizard.com> <40C53C3F.4070903@mdrconsult.com> <200406072319.40356.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <40C547D3.10002@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Doc Shipley declared on Monday 07 June 2004 11:10 pm: >> Does NetBSD v1.6 still hose the firmware's autoboot function? > > > I think that's been fixed, there apparently was a patch to fix it > submitted in 2002: > http://mail-index.netbsd.org/port-vax/2002/04/28/0008.html > > Of course, you could always just ask the port-vax at lists.netbsd.org > list. To tell the truth, I don't know why I even asked. I have umpteen systems that will run *BSD, and some of them have no other OS readily available. Why I'd want to run it on my VS4000/90 when I can get VMS free, I haven't a clue. Doc From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Jun 8 00:22:00 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator References: Message-ID: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> I need to find a trashed out calc it seems just so we can get a 4004 for the microprocessor collection here! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 12:22 AM Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator > > Whilst thrifting for Atari joysticks today, I came across a barely > interesting looking desk calculator and a hunch compelled me to take a > chance on it. It is the Unicom 141P made by Unicom Systems, Inc. The > label indicates, "Made in Japan". > > "Hmmm...Unicom...Unicom...Japan..." It sounded familiar. Of course I was > thinking "Busicom", which is the name of the Japanese company that > ordered the development of what became the 4004 for a new calculator they > were designing. But I couldn't quite remember the name. At $5, I figured > it was worth taking a chance. It was, as I mentioned, a barely > interesting desktop calculator, so worst case it would serve as a good > example of a 1970s desktop calculator (I was pretty certain it was circa > 1970s). > > So I just opened it up and it's got an Intel 4004 inside! > > Unfortunately, I'm not able to test it out because it requires a funky > squarish three prong power cord. I'll have to look around and see if I > can find one. > > There's only one (out of two) relevant Google results, that being this > guy's website: > > http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/index.html > > With this calculator listed on his "Alphabetic catalog of Electronic > Calculators" list. > > http://www.devidts.com/be-calc/catalog_U.asc.htm > > Might anyone (Rick Bensene?) have any info about this calculator? Rick's > site lists the Busicom 141 in his wanted section: > > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/wanted.html#WANTED-BUSICOM > > Is this in fact a re-badged Busicom? Or just coincidence? Rick's > description indicates that the Busicom 141 is based on discrete > diode/transistor logic with a Nixie tube display, whereas this one has a > printing mechanism only. > > In searching for info, I came across another interesting website here: > > http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber/cmhistory.htm > > ...with this interesting article: > > http://www.dotpoint.com/xnumber/e_walther.htm > > Oddly enough (perhaps), this represents the only 4004-based computing > device in my archive. > > I'm relatively stoked ;) > > (And I haven't been thus about a new find in a long time...) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 8 00:35:24 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <20040608053524.GA10313@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:22:00PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > I need to find a trashed out calc it seems just so we can get a 4004 for the > microprocessor collection here! I have two 4004s... one came from a non-UPC barcode reader I picked up at Dayton 20+ years ago for $5, the other from a commercial kitchen scale with LED readout. They were used in more than just calculators. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 08-Jun-2004 05:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77 F (-60.6 C) Windchill -115.5 F (-82 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.1 kts Grid 026 Barometer 669 mb (11042. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jun 8 00:43:48 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: Message-ID: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> I wouldnt be surprised if the drive is "related" to a 5945C I have. This is a QIC-36 drive. If my supposition is correct (based on the floppy connector you mention), you will need a special QIC02/QIC36 controller, and the software to go with it. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cymbal" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C Hi all, Anybody know how to access the above running under either DOS or Linux? It has a 5.25" floppy connector on it. I don't have any drivers for it (do I need them?), just a QS.EXE (QuicStream?) archive DOS app which pukes with a divide overflow error during its "Initializing tape drives" phase. Knoppix doesn't even see it during HW detection. Any config pointers? Thanks. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 7 13:45:53 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <001601c44cbf$a9a65010$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:43 AM Subject: Re: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > I wouldnt be surprised if the drive is "related" to a 5945C I have. This is > a QIC-36 drive. If my supposition is correct (based on the floppy connector > you mention), you will need a special QIC02/QIC36 controller, and the > software to go with it. > Nico > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Cymbal" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM > Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > > > Hi all, > > Anybody know how to access the above running under either DOS or Linux? It > has a 5.25" floppy connector on it. I don't have any drivers for it (do I > need them?), just a QS.EXE (QuicStream?) archive DOS app which pukes with a > divide overflow error during its "Initializing tape drives" phase. Knoppix > doesn't even see it during HW detection. Any config pointers? > > Thanks. > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 7 13:47:12 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:19 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <001b01c44cbf$d8b5bcb0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:43 AM Subject: Re: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > I wouldnt be surprised if the drive is "related" to a 5945C I have. This is > a QIC-36 drive. If my supposition is correct (based on the floppy connector > you mention), you will need a special QIC02/QIC36 controller, and the > software to go with it. > Nico > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Damien Cymbal" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:42 AM > Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > > > Hi all, > > Anybody know how to access the above running under either DOS or Linux? It > has a 5.25" floppy connector on it. I don't have any drivers for it (do I > need them?), just a QS.EXE (QuicStream?) archive DOS app which pukes with a > divide overflow error during its "Initializing tape drives" phase. Knoppix > doesn't even see it during HW detection. Any config pointers? > > Thanks. > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.693 / Virus Database: 454 - Release Date: 31-05-2004 > > Divide overflow is a common problem running older software on a much faster new machine. Try slowing your machine down or running the drive on a system of the same vintage. From wayne.smith at charter.net Tue Jun 8 02:27:58 2004 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Atari Mandala VR System In-Reply-To: <200406071603.i57G2khg020099@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001d01c44d2a$20d6a6c0$6501a8c0@Wayne> Good catch - I did mean Amiga. I've seen about everything the web has too offer on this and am hoping to get my hands on some actual hardware. Thanks. -W > Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2004 12:19:52 -0500 (CDT) > From: Martin Scott Goldberg > Subject: Re: Atari Mandala VR System > To: cctech@classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200406061719.i56HJqdK017402@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >I'm looking to buy (or at least get a chance to look at) an original > >Mandala virtual reality system for the Atari - the one that > was sold by > >Vivid beginning in around late 1989 or so. Basically works like the > >Playstation Eye Toy. > > > >Anybody have one or know who does? > > > >-W > > > > Actually that was an Amiga driven system, not Atari. You can > read the specs about it here: > > http://www.siggraph.org/~fujii/etech/1991_14.html > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 8 03:29:44 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: PDP-11/03 backplane In-Reply-To: <40C53C3F.4070903@mdrconsult.com> References: <40C53951.3020608@soupwizard.com> <40C53C3F.4070903@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040608102944.39347931.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 23:10:39 -0500 Doc Shipley wrote: > Does NetBSD v1.6 still hose the firmware's autoboot function? No, this has been fixed a long time ago. Someone on port-vax made a firmware update available that you can MOP boot to fix the problem if your machine was bitten by this. And I sugest to use a 2.0 beta if you want NetBSD on your VAX. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 8 03:25:14 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <0406080020.AA23893@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406080020.AA23893@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040608102514.4a57b5b3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 7 Jun 04 17:20:34 PDT msokolov@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > > I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. > Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas. There are "print servers". Litle boxes with a Centronics parallel port on one side and Ethernet on the other side. Much like a terminal server. Most of them talk TCP/IP and the BSD LPR/LPD network protocol, so it is trivial to interface them to a VAX running BSD UNIX. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jun 8 03:55:46 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <001d01c44d2a$20d6a6c0$6501a8c0@Wayne> References: <200406071603.i57G2khg020099@huey.classiccmp.org> <001d01c44d2a$20d6a6c0$6501a8c0@Wayne> Message-ID: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Folks, Today we're going to dump 20 or so MicroVAXen because they're taking up too much space and we only need half a dozen as emergency spares...... Any takers? They're just the machines themselves (ie no disks) with probably 8 or 16mb memory, all tested working in the past otherwise we'd not have them in stores :) Mostly 3100-30s but there's also a couple of 3100-20s. I've rung Jules R in the hope he's got some spare room we can keep them in temporarily - I'm currently living out of the back of my car so can't easily keep them there...... let me know ASAP -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 8 06:36:38 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: References: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040608123135.0b2fb3d0@pop.freeserve.net> At 02:42 08/06/2004 +0100, you wrote: > > Having said that, the only problem with such devices > > that I've had is one portable CD player that got > > dropped and suffered some broken plastic. Having > > received a little mechanical care, it now works > > as well as it ever did. In my experience these > > things seem to suffer from mechanical failure > > rather than electronic failure. (So, yes, the Yep... My wife is very happy with her laptop .. PIII, 500Mhz 15" TFT etc. Not a bad machine, even for running Windows. I got it free from a customer because it had been dropped, had been for repair, and was "not repairable". They asked me if it was safe to just stick it in the bin.. !!! All that was wrong was the plastic around the hinges had broken, making the top loose, and the hard drive had crashed. Even the screen had survived. A bit of glue and some extra strengthening, a new hard drive, and it's absolutely fine. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 8 07:53:03 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <200406071603.i57G2khg020099@huey.classiccmp.org> <001d01c44d2a$20d6a6c0$6501a8c0@Wayne> <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1086699183.12001.12.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 08:55, Witchy wrote: > I've rung Jules R in the hope he's got some spare room we can > keep them in temporarily ... which turns out to be the back of my car - getting home proved interesting with no suspension travel at the back :-) they can't stay there for long of course, but at least it's a stay of execution! cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jun 8 08:07:09 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <1086699183.12001.12.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200406071603.i57G2khg020099@huey.classiccmp.org><001d01c44d2a$20d6a6c0$6501a8c0@Wayne><38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <1086699183.12001.12.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <44441.80.242.32.51.1086700029.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 08:55, Witchy wrote: >> I've rung Jules R in the hope he's got some spare room we can >> keep them in temporarily > > ... which turns out to be the back of my car - getting home proved > interesting with no suspension travel at the back :-) Bet yer steering was nice and light though..... > they can't stay there for long of course, but at least it's a stay of > execution! Excellent - can you do a count up for me so I know how many of each we've got? cya -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 08:07:17 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:43 AM Subject: Re: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > I wouldnt be surprised if the drive is "related" to a 5945C I have. This is > a QIC-36 drive. If my supposition is correct (based on the floppy connector > you mention), you will need a special QIC02/QIC36 controller, and the > software to go with it. Maybe, but I remember pullling this drive out of an old 486 a couple years ago and I could have sworn that there were no additional adapters in the box. It looked like it was just connected to the FDD. I could be wrong about that, but I feel pretty confident that was the case. From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 8 08:32:37 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Arg... Salesdroiditis strikes again! References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040607191917.03b6eaa0@mail.30below.com> <200406072358.TAA02870@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16581.49141.316106.769105@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >>> When I replace this 21" monitor with something, it will almost >>> certainly be a flat-screen..... >> You do know that there are "perfectly-flat" CRT technologies, >> right? der> Well, I didn't write that, but... der> ...yes. However, I see nothing wrong with using "flat" to refer der> to something that's, oh, say, 15"x18"x4" as compared to, say, der> 15"x18"x20". der> Unless you mean there are flat-screen CRTs that have also done der> away with the long neck? What's the issue? The word is "flat-screen" and indeed the SCREEN is flat. The whole unit is not, but that's not what the word claims. Contrast "flat panel" where indeed the whole thing is flat. As marketing terminology goes, this one is quite reasonable. Confusingly similar between two different devices, yes, but each term is accurate as it stands. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 8 08:46:15 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator References: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <20040608053524.GA10313@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <16581.49959.772190.182539@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:22:00PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: >> I need to find a trashed out calc it seems just so we can get a >> 4004 for the microprocessor collection here! Ethan> I have two 4004s... one came from a non-UPC barcode reader I Ethan> picked up at Dayton 20+ years ago for $5, the other from a Ethan> commercial kitchen scale with LED readout. Ethan> They were used in more than just calculators. Indeed. A classmate of mine made a "PC" out of one, back in 1974, as a college honors project. Designed the whole thing, and built it (over 100 ICs, mostly 7400 series SSI, wire wrapped). It sufficiently impressed Fermi Labs that they wanted to make some copies of it... paul From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Tue Jun 8 08:20:32 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20040609002032.010bddf0@pop-server> At 10:42 PM 6/7/04 -0400, you wrote: >Hi all, > >Anybody know how to access the above running under either DOS or Linux? It has a 5.25" floppy connector on it. I don't have any drivers for it (do I need them?), just a QS.EXE (QuicStream?) archive DOS app which pukes with a divide overflow error during its "Initializing tape drives" phase. Knoppix doesn't even see it during HW detection. Any config pointers? > >Thanks. I'm not familiar with that particular drive, but I have other tape drives that have a floppy interface. The ones that I have used never had any drivers, you just ran the software that came with them. What system are you trying to run this on? I find divide overflow errors are quite common when running some old software on recent (Pentium and above, sometimes even 486) systems. I'd install the drive in an older system (486, 386, etc). If that is not an option try disabling both the internal and external cache in the BIOS setup program. Divide by zero errors are often cache related. From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jun 8 09:37:15 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <000601c44d66$183a8db0$2201a8c0@finans> Hi I googled around a bit, and noticed that the 5540C comes in a 3.5" form factor. Held together with your statement sayting that it came off a floppy connector, it looks like a competitor to e.g. the BackPac from Microsolutions, TR1, and similar. This points again at the QIC-80 / DC2000 format. Do the cartridges say anything regarding the formatting, e.g. "Rhomat formatted" ? According to google, the 5540C has only a capacity of 40 MB, so what you can use it for today, is beyond me. I have used a lot of time trying to see if modern OS'es could talk to QIC-80 drives, and until now in vain. The best I can come up with, is that Windows versions newer then 95 do not allow you to talk to the hardware directly. I have a 486 with WIN3.11, used exclusively for reading QIC80 and Rhomat tapes. I also found a question identical to yours on www.driversguide.com, but no-one has come up with a solution. This question was 5 years old. So, unless you have some tapes you must read, my opinion is that you should bin it. Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Damien Cymbal" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 3:07 PM Subject: Re: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nico de Jong" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 1:43 AM > Subject: Re: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C > > > > I wouldnt be surprised if the drive is "related" to a 5945C I have. This > is > > a QIC-36 drive. If my supposition is correct (based on the floppy > connector > > you mention), you will need a special QIC02/QIC36 controller, and the > > software to go with it. > > Maybe, but I remember pullling this drive out of an old 486 a couple years > ago and I could have sworn that there were no additional adapters in the > box. It looked like it was just connected to the FDD. I could be wrong > about that, but I feel pretty confident that was the case. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07-06-2004 From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 8 09:46:31 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C In-Reply-To: <001b01c44cbf$d8b5bcb0$422d1941@game> References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> <001b01c44cbf$d8b5bcb0$422d1941@game> Message-ID: <200406080946.31582.pat@computer-refuge.org> > Hi all, > > Anybody know how to access the above running under either DOS or > Linux? > It has a 5.25" floppy connector on it. I don't have any drivers for > it (do I need them?), just a QS.EXE (QuicStream?) archive DOS app > which pukes with > a divide overflow error during its "Initializing tape drives" phase. > Knoppix doesn't even see it during HW detection. Any config pointers? I'm not supprised that Knoppix doesn't have support (who really has these laying around), but Linux does have support in the kernel for these things (QIC-80 interfaces). It's called the "ftape" (floppy tape) driver, but of course, I've never tried to use it as I stopped using mine before I started using Linux. It was a pain to back up 200MB hard drives on 80/120MB (high density/XL) tapes, let alone when I "finally got a huge" 540MB drive to put in that machine. It was an IBM 486-based machine, actually 11 years old now, so it is technically on-topic. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jun 8 09:49:40 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> <000601c44d66$183a8db0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <004701c44d67$d443cd40$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nico de Jong" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 4:37 PM Subject: Re: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C Sorry for the top-posting ! Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07-06-2004 From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Tue Jun 8 09:57:07 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Archive Cartridge Tape Drive 5540C References: <003601c44d1b$925b28c0$2201a8c0@finans> <000601c44d66$183a8db0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: > I also found a question identical to yours on www.driversguide.com, but > no-one has come up with a solution. This question was 5 years old. > So, unless you have some tapes you must read, my opinion is that you should > bin it. > > Nico Well, yes it really was more of an academic exercise. There were these tapes laying around from the mid-90's that I picked up with the system and I was curious if there was anything of interest on them. It's not like there is anything I need. Would this be of any interest to anyone from a historical perspective, or is it truly destined for the great dustbin in the sky.? I've several boxes of DC2000 and DC2120 tapes that came with it. From david_comley at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 10:35:21 2004 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: HP 7908 woes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040608153521.95197.qmail@web13523.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyway, what I would do is figure out what runs off > the 12V line > (probably some of the motor drivers, etc). And then > disconnect the 12V > line from them (disconnect the power cable from the > drive PCB, etc as > appropriate). Try to get the fuse to hold _and the > 12V line correct_ with > no load or a dummy load. > > -tony By pulling boards I was able to isolate the problem to the regulator board which contains three 12V supply circuits, one each for the tape, logic and drive spindle. I was able to identify high power thyristors and op-amps on each 12V supply suggesting some sort of crowbar arrangement for overvoltage protection (no schematics available and this is a four-layer PCB which makes it hard to derive the actual circuit). I haven't checked the thyristors for shorts yet but I believe the problem is either a defective thyristor or some defect in one of the voltage comparators, maybe a dead zener or something. I need to keep the fuse from blowing long enough to figure out why the overvoltage protection is triggering. What would be the risk in trying to defeat the overvoltage protection without any load connected to the regulated 12V lines ? I assume I could do this by disconnecting the gate of each thyristor. Thanks, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 8 11:07:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller Message-ID: I want to re-pay someone for some help they've given me and they've said they're looking for a Qbus hard disk controller. Sounds like too generic a description but at any rate, if someone has one they want to sell or trade then please let me know. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 8 11:54:07 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I want to re-pay someone for some help they've given me and they've said >they're looking for a Qbus hard disk controller. Sounds like too generic >a description but at any rate, if someone has one they want to sell or >trade then please let me know. Really *WAY* to generic. At face value they could very well mean a DEC RQDX3 (MFM), but they might also be looking for a third party MFM, ESDI, or SCSI controller. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 12:17:13 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: I have an old legacy DOS application that I need to run on new Win XP hardware for the next few months. The problem is, I've been told it won't run under XP's DOS Shell. I'm curious what others have used as solutions to run non NT kernel friendly DOS applications in such an environment. I'm thinking about something like Virtual PC to run a regular DOS 6.2.2 install inside it, but I have no idea if that will actually work. Plus I need to do this on up to 5 machines and buying 5 copies of VPC at the new Microsoft pricing may break the bank (Connectix used to have an OS free version for something like $50... MS now charges $130 for the base price). It looks like VMWare is going to be the same problem with pricing. So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd like this to be as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run the software in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to that functionality, the better). -chris From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jun 8 12:26:05 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP In-Reply-To: from "chris" at Jun 8, 04 01:17:13 pm Message-ID: <200406081726.NAA11121@wordstock.com> And thusly chris spake: > > So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd like this to be > as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run the software > in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to that > functionality, the better). > Chris, Have you tried DOSbox? --> http://dosbox.sourceforge.net . Cheers, Bryan Pope From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 12:36:33 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: >> So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd like this to be >> as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run the software >> in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to that >> functionality, the better). > Have you tried DOSbox? --> http://dosbox.sourceforge.net . I have not, I didn't know about it. But it does look promising. Thanks! (anyone else have any other ideas? I'd like to hit the site with a pack of options so I can increase my odds of having one of them work correctly) -chris From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Tue Jun 8 12:49:45 2004 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B558478065532B4@exchange.olf.com> Hi, There is a DOS compatibility layer build into XP. It *might* work. Take a look at the following website on how to run DOS-based games on XP. Should help you out.... http://www.dosgames.com/xphints.php Cheers, Ram (c) 2004 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From bert at brothom.nl Tue Jun 8 13:56:30 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP References: Message-ID: <40C60BDE.D2C9AC5F@brothom.nl> chris wrote: > > (anyone else have any other ideas? I'd like to hit the site with a pack > of options so I can increase my odds of having one of them work correctly) Find out why it's not working? [Tony's standard rant here, but replace 'hardware' with 'software' ;-)] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 8 13:11:36 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston In-Reply-To: <20040608154050.RGVJ18566.out011.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> References: <20040608154050.RGVJ18566.out011.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> Message-ID: <200406081815.OAA14171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I got this from someone who apparently can't reach the list directly (perhaps fallout from the debacle over Verizon's IP space? I dunno). I'm just the messenger here; I'm not the correct person to contact. For that, use the phone number in the message, or - if it actually works, which I haven't verified - the email address, which you can find in the Cc: of this message. I hope someone can nab this batch. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > dear friend: > > i cant somehow reach that board directly anymore > > could you pls broadcast the following message under > > decstation cache in boston > > i have a dozen or so mostly decstations and vax vlc4000 and vaxstations to give away. the decstations are mostly loaded with ram (96mb?) and many boxen have ultrix loaded. in addition i have cables, tapdrives, cdroms and yes megamonitors, terminals, scsi hubs (?) and connectors galore. > trouble is: all is in one heap, i forgot which goes to what! incl passwords! other trouble: all has to go in one fell swoop, no cherry picking. other trouble: it wont fit in a gmc suburban, u need a van. other trouble: i wont lift the junk. other trouble: its in downtown boston, you can park in front of the house, and no, the hydrant has been moved. > last trouble: its free. > > contact me at 617 723 5768 after 6pm, so we can make funeral arrangements.... > > fred > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 8 13:11:07 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller References: Message-ID: <002c01c44d83$f8521540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I believe I have a few spare RQDX2's, but those dont do RD53 drives just RD52 I think? Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Cc: "Bay Area Computer Collector List" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 11:07 AM Subject: Qbus hard disk controller > > I want to re-pay someone for some help they've given me and they've said > they're looking for a Qbus hard disk controller. Sounds like too generic > a description but at any rate, if someone has one they want to sell or > trade then please let me know. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 8 13:17:38 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: <9B703AC2-B8F9-11D8-BC1B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > On Jun 5, 2004, at 4:05 PM, Don Maslin wrote: > > > > > > > On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > >> Careful frame by frame viewing shows a computer I had once, and wish I > >> had again.. > >> > >> The Televideo (mumble model cuz I forgot) CGA+10mb IBM AT > >> Or the next one, Televideo portable... :^) > > > > Sounds like the TS-803H and the TPC-1. > > > > - don > > > > I think the TS-803H was a CPM machine... Televideo made those and they > looked > the same but never a cga like screen > > Monitor that tilts attached to a vertical motherboard with two floppies > stacked sideways (short edges - stacked tall) Yes, the TS-803H was a CP/M machine and its monitor was not CGA. > TPC was the portable - I don't think they ever > made a cpm portable. Au contraire! The TPC-1 was a CP/M machine. I have one. - don From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 8 13:34:55 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Speaking of Boston... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040608143334.00af3fc8@mail.30below.com> I met a guy over Memorial day weekend, that says the best place for lobster is at "Anthony's Pier 4"... That said, has there been any headway WRT lodging arrangments & whatnot for VCF East? Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 8 12:45:25 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:55:46 BST." <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200406081745.SAA26534@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "Witchy" said: > > Today we're going to dump 20 or so MicroVAXen because they're taking up > too much space and we only need half a dozen as emergency spares...... D*mn! Why is this sort of thing always so far away :-( -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 8 12:43:06 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 08 Jun 2004 10:25:14 +0200." <20040608102514.4a57b5b3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <200406081743.SAA26507@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jochen Kunz said: > On Mon, 7 Jun 04 17:20:34 PDT > msokolov@ivan.harhan.org (Michael Sokolov) wrote: > > > > I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. > > Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas. > There are "print servers". Litle boxes with a Centronics parallel port > on one side and Ethernet on the other side. Much like a terminal server. > Most of them talk TCP/IP and the BSD LPR/LPD network protocol, so it is > trivial to interface them to a VAX running BSD UNIX. Or perhaps even cheaper, any old PC, 386 up, a network card, and a copy of FreeSCO*. A very cut-down Linux. Boots off the floppy, runs entirely in RAM if you have 16+Mb and needs no hard disk. I use it as a print server running on a junk 486 someone gave me. * Named for Free (CI)SCO - not SCO! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 14:21:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040608115602.P15698@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, chris wrote: > I have an old legacy DOS application WHAT "application"? It really DOES matter. "old"? "legacy"? > that I need to run on new Win XP > hardware for the next few months. The problem is, I've been told it won't > run under XP's DOS Shell. WHO told you? the author of the program?? Uncle Charlie?? Have YOU tried it? Sorry to seem harsh, but "been told it won't run" is quite a bit different from "it won't run". WHAT program is it? It really DOES matter. The DOS box in NT (which XP is one of) is just fine for running "old legacy DOS application"s (PROGRAMS). BUT,... NT will NOT permit certain kinds of hardware access, such as writing disk sectors, "for security reasons". Therefore, XenoCopy can not run in any version of NT (NT3,NT4,Win2K,XP). > I'm curious what others have used as solutions to run non NT kernel > friendly DOS applications in such an environment. I'm thinking about > something like Virtual PC to run a regular DOS 6.2.2 install inside it, > but I have no idea if that will actually work. Plus I need to do this on > up to 5 machines and buying 5 copies of VPC at the new Microsoft pricing > may break the bank (Connectix used to have an OS free version for > something like $50... MS now charges $130 for the base price). If the reason that the "old legacy DOS application" won't run is because it needs to do something that has been blocked "for security reasons" (such as writing disk sectors), then it won't run any better with VPC. > It looks like VMWare is going to be the same problem with pricing. > So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd like this to be > as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run the software > in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to that > functionality, the better). So, it DOES run in a Windoze DOS box. There are few things that will run in a Win95 DOS box that won't run in an XP DOS box, other than "security risks" What kind of partition does the system have? Does the "old legacy DOS application" need access to the hard disk? (ones that REALLY are "old" would not) 1) Boot from floppy with DOS 6.2x. If it DOES need the hard disk, then make a small FAT16 partition for it to use. or 2) install a dual boot of XP and Win98, and make the drive, or a partition of it, FAT32. -- Grumpy Ol' [legacy?] Fred From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 8 14:35:03 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <000701c44d8f$b2e9def0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Any takers? They're just the machines themselves (ie no > disks) with probably 8 or 16mb memory, all tested working in > the past otherwise we'd not have them in stores :) Mostly > 3100-30s but there's also a couple of 3100-20s. MicroVAX 3100-30 is faster that a MicroVAX 3100-20 (or did you mean VAXstation 3100-30)? I'm sure that there would be takers on the netbsd port-vax mailing list or the linux-vax mailing list. Failing that, ebay is better than binning! Do you have an accurate inventory? A list of KA?? versions (the MicroVAX 3100-10/20e and the MicroVAX 3100-10/20 post April 1992 [IIRC] have ROMs that can cope with big(ger) SCSI disks). Given the recent discussions, you could contribute a decent set of ROM images now :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 14:35:48 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <20040608123352.I15698@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > I need to find a trashed out calc it seems just so we can get a 4004 for the > microprocessor collection here! There are a few other sources of 4004's. I used to have half a dozen DTC-300 [HiType I] daisy wheel terminals that used 4004's. From KParker at workcover.com Mon Jun 7 19:51:51 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Computer museums Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Well I probably run a high risk of getting flamed a bit here but the wife and I are planning a trip - figured we've worked long enough and deserve it. Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to Sydney, then Los Angeles (to catch up with the daughter), then New York, onto London, then maybe Spain, then Zurich, over to Berlin, then Tokyo, down to Singapore and then home. As we are in the planning phase Id' interested if anyone knows if there are any computer museums (or similar things of interest) in these locations. TIA!!! +++++++++++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 e: webmaster@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com +++++++++++++++++++ ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Jun 8 08:11:24 2004 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040526150855.007b8380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040526150855.007b8380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: I saved an H8 from someone's garbage, took it home, opened it up and found a pot-pipe stuck inside. (I quickly removed the pipe and took it back to the person's garbage and placed it again in their trash--hidden inside a pc-clone case that they were also throwing out). Later that night I noticed that someone had taken the clone case...I wonder what they thought of the surprise... -Bob > I went scrounging a few days ago and opened up a junction box and found >a set of wire leads with the mini-grabbers and a plastic wire frame from a >HP logic analyzer that someone had left inside. Wahoo! These always come in >handy! I've previously found screwdrivers, knives, various plugs, >connectors and gender menders. But I got to wondering what is the strangest >thing that anyone has ever found inside a computer or similar piece of >electronics gear. > > Joe -- bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From fdebros at verizon.net Tue Jun 8 10:40:50 2004 From: fdebros at verizon.net (fdebros@verizon.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? Message-ID: <20040608154050.RGVJ18566.out011.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> dear friend: i cant somehow reach that board directly anymore could you pls broadcast the following message under decstation cache in boston i have a dozen or so mostly decstations and vax vlc4000 and vaxstations to give away. the decstations are mostly loaded with ram (96mb?) and many boxen have ultrix loaded. in addition i have cables, tapdrives, cdroms and yes megamonitors, terminals, scsi hubs (?) and connectors galore. trouble is: all is in one heap, i forgot which goes to what! incl passwords! other trouble: all has to go in one fell swoop, no cherry picking. other trouble: it wont fit in a gmc suburban, u need a van. other trouble: i wont lift the junk. other trouble: its in downtown boston, you can park in front of the house, and no, the hydrant has been moved. last trouble: its free. contact me at 617 723 5768 after 6pm, so we can make funeral arrangements.... fred From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Tue Jun 8 16:02:35 2004 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <40C6296B.20803@ox.compsoc.net> Parker, Kevin wrote: > Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to Sydney, then Los > Angeles (to catch up with the daughter), then New York, onto London, > then maybe Spain, then Zurich, over to Berlin, then Tokyo, down to > Singapore and then home. > > As we are in the planning phase Id' interested if anyone knows if > there are any computer museums (or similar things of interest) in > these locations. If you're in London around a weekend, you could do much worse than travelling a bit out and visiting Bletchley Park, which was the site of the WW2 British code-breaking effort. And they even have a computer museum on site :) http://www.bletchleypark.co.uk - On some weekends they have special events; these are often worth looking out for. Dan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 16:10:24 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20040608123135.0b2fb3d0@pop.freeserve.net> References: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> <5.1.1.6.0.20040608123135.0b2fb3d0@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <20040608140909.G15698@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > Yep... My wife is very happy with her laptop .. PIII, 500Mhz 15" TFT etc. > Not a bad machine, even for running Windows. I got it free from a customer > because it had been dropped, had been for repair, and was "not > repairable". They asked me if it was safe to just stick it in the bin.. !!! I'm using a 233 MHz Dell laptop that was discarded because they lost the NT login password From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 8 16:25:50 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6A303866-B992-11D8-9C35-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Jun 8, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Don Maslin wrote: > > > On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> >> On Jun 5, 2004, at 4:05 PM, Don Maslin wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: >>> >>>> Careful frame by frame viewing shows a computer I had once, and >>>> wish I >>>> had again.. >>>> >>>> The Televideo (mumble model cuz I forgot) CGA+10mb IBM AT >>>> Or the next one, Televideo portable... :^) >>> >>> Sounds like the TS-803H and the TPC-1. >>> >>> - don >>> >> >> I think the TS-803H was a CPM machine... Televideo made those and they >> looked >> the same but never a cga like screen >> >> Monitor that tilts attached to a vertical motherboard with two >> floppies >> stacked sideways (short edges - stacked tall) > > Yes, the TS-803H was a CP/M machine and its monitor was not CGA. > >> TPC was the portable - I don't think they ever >> made a cpm portable. > > Au contraire! The TPC-1 was a CP/M machine. I have one. Is the TPC-1 a monitor next to a slab next to a floppy hd or floppy pair? +--------------------------------+ +----+-----+ | +----------------------------+ | | | F | | | monitor | | |cpu | L | | | | | | | P | | | | | | | Y | | | | | | | | | | | | | |-----| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | H | | | | | | | D | | | | | | | | | +----------------------------+ | | | | +--------------------------------+ | | | +----------------------------------+ | | \----------------------------------+----+-----/ I though it was more the osbourn > > - don > > From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 16:31:32 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: >WHAT "application"? It really DOES matter. >"old"? "legacy"? Its a medical scheduling application called Perfect Care. >WHO told you? the author of the program?? Uncle Charlie?? The support guys at the company that made the software. Their exact statement was "we've had major problems getting it to run in DOS under XP". When asked if per chance this was unique to XP, the answer was no, it was a problem with the entire NT line's DOS ability. Their recommended solution? Upgrade to their new Windows based product. That's more or less what is going to happen, but not for another few months (the upgrade is going to a different product, but regardless it will be upgraded, so I need a solution that will run for 4-6 months) >Have YOU tried it? No, but I plan to. But the location is 3 hours away from me, so it isn't something I'm going to drive to give a whirl. It will wait until I am at the location doing the rest of the upgrades. It may be a simple work around, or it may be very complex, I won't know more info until I get there next week. >Sorry to seem harsh, but "been told it won't run" is >quite a bit different from "it won't run". Agreed... but I've been "told" it won't run, and I need to make it run, so I want to arrive at the site armed with options on how to get it to run. >The DOS box in NT (which XP is one of) is just fine >for running "old legacy DOS application"s (PROGRAMS). >BUT,... >NT will NOT permit certain kinds of hardware access, >such as writing disk sectors, "for security reasons". >Therefore, XenoCopy can not run in any version of NT >(NT3,NT4,Win2K,XP). All this I knew. It may be doing some kind of hardware access, I don't know. >If the reason that the "old legacy DOS application" won't >run is because it needs to do something that has been >blocked "for security reasons" (such as writing disk sectors), >then it won't run any better with VPC. Won't it? VPC makes the software think it is running on its own computer. So I would think the software could write to "disk sectors" inside VPC. >From there VPC would take care of altering that into whatever method XP wishes to be used. >So, it DOES run in a Windoze DOS box. There are few things that >will run in a Win95 DOS box that won't run in an XP DOS box, >other than "security risks" Correct, they are currently doing it inside Win95. But like mentioned above, the software developers say it doesn't work inside the NT structure. So they may do something that is restricted (they may also just need a very tweaked PIF and don't bother telling anyone that in an effort to get them to upgrade to a newer version... I really can't say). >What kind of partition does the system have? >Does the "old legacy DOS application" need access to the hard disk? >(ones that REALLY are "old" would not) Don't know and don't know. I have not yet stepped foot on site, and the salesman that did originally spec'd out using a Terminal Emulator to access the legacy system. When I questioned why we had to purchase a new program to access something they are currently doing in Windows (ie: why not just run whatever program they are running now to access it), that is when I was put on the hunt to find the answer. After talking to the site myself, it now appears the salesman was incorrect and it is in fact running a DOS application. BUT, I haven't been there myself yet, so maybe it will turn out to just be some terminal front end. The people on the site don't really know themselves, all they could do is tell me what they do to make it run, and from that I get the impression it is a DOS application (that and talking to the developers, they said it is a DOS app). >1) Boot from floppy with DOS 6.2x. If it DOES need the hard disk, >then make a small FAT16 partition for it to use. > >2) install a dual boot of XP and Win98, and make the drive, >or a partition of it, FAT32. No can do. The app needs to be run side by side with other XP/2000 based apps (the new app that is dictating this hardware/OS upgrade requires either XP or 2k). So I can't do a dual boot as it will prohibit both the legacy and the new app from running at the same time (I can do a VPC type solution since that will run in a window inside XP... but VPC's pricing will probably be an issue for something that I need 5 copies for only a few months) -chris From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 8 16:31:28 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: <6A303866-B992-11D8-9C35-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <6A303866-B992-11D8-9C35-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200406081631.28771.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 08 June 2004 16:25, Ron Hudson wrote: > On Jun 8, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Don Maslin wrote: > > On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> On Jun 5, 2004, at 4:05 PM, Don Maslin wrote: > >>> On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >>>> Careful frame by frame viewing shows a computer I had once, and > >>>> wish I > >>>> had again.. > >>>> > >>>> The Televideo (mumble model cuz I forgot) CGA+10mb IBM AT > >>>> Or the next one, Televideo portable... :^) > >>> > >>> Sounds like the TS-803H and the TPC-1. > >>> > >>> - don > >> > >> I think the TS-803H was a CPM machine... Televideo made those and > >> they looked > >> the same but never a cga like screen > >> > >> Monitor that tilts attached to a vertical motherboard with two > >> floppies > >> stacked sideways (short edges - stacked tall) > > > > Yes, the TS-803H was a CP/M machine and its monitor was not CGA. > > > >> TPC was the portable - I don't think they ever > >> made a cpm portable. > > > > Au contraire! The TPC-1 was a CP/M machine. I have one. > > Is the TPC-1 a monitor next to a slab next to a floppy hd or floppy > pair? No, that's the 803 they talked about above. > I though it was more the osbourn Yep, looked sorta like an O-1. There was also a TPC-II that was an 8088 (pc compatible) version of the TPC-I, which is what I had when I was a kid. First hit in google: http://www.total.net/~hrothgar/museum/TPC1/ I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a TPC-I or TPC-II again. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 8 16:32:18 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: CRT pinout In-Reply-To: <200406072217.SAA02150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406072217.SAA02150@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1086730337.2585.30.camel@dhcp-249118.mobile.uci.edu> On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 15:16, der Mouse wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find the pinout for a 3RP1 CRT? http://wps.com/archives/tube-datasheets/Indices/3RP1.html And see the index at http://wps.com/archives/tube-datasheets > I went a-googling, but all I found was a few places that had the silly > things for sale. I nipped the tube numbers from being indexed (robots.txt), but that's probably just my old-fashioned frugality working overtime. I'll open it up for crawling so the part numbers get exposed. From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 16:36:21 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: >Find out why it's not working? [Tony's standard rant here, but replace >'hardware' with 'software' ;-)] I tried that. The support department at the developing company was vague, and I got the impression deliberately so. They want to sell their upgrade, not help someone run an outdated version for longer. All they were really willing to share was "XP like the rest of the NT line, isn't really running DOS. Its a kind of DOS emulator and it isn't fully compatible". Yeah, I knew that already, thanks for being helpful. So I really don't know for sure what happens when it tries to run. I will know better when I am on site and can try it myself, but I have a very limited amount of time that I can be on site, and a lot of work to accomplish, so I don't want to go in without some ideas of solutions. I'd rather be prepared then blind. -chris From rdd at rddavis.org Tue Jun 8 17:14:28 2004 From: rdd at rddavis.org (R. D. Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20040608221427.GQ30100@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Quothe Antonio Carlini, from writings of Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 11:49:41PM +0100: > I do have one or two service manuals but nothing with > a schematic. Admittedly a schematic may be of little They're not service manuals then, regardless of their titles. > use given the nature of the components (a significant > proportion of which may well be made of unobtanium). Not all are, however. > Modern cassette players (OTOH) seem to need a > constant diet of fresh tapes :-( Why would anyone use a cassette player that is so poorly made and apparently can't be calibrated? > I think you are in a definite minority with this. I'm with > Einstein: "things should be as cheap as possible, and no > cheaper" :-) > I'm happy that my washing machine is relatively > cheap (bad example: easily repaired anyway). I'd be even About a year or so, I spoke with the executive assistant to the president of a major washing machine and clothes dryer manufacturer, who explained why the quality of the new washing machines and clothes dryers is nowhere near as good as the old ones. For one thing, they can't get the same quality of of steel that they used about twenty years ago. There is a definite decrease in quality that makes the machines more of a nuisance (e.g., jumping across the floor since it's not as heavy) and since even the manufacturer admits that the new one's aren't likely to last twenty to forty years or more. It's better to pay a little more and get better quality that will last than pinch pennies excessively and get something that isn't as durable. > happier if my cars were cheaper. I'd probably pay an extra > ?10 to have my portable CD player made with a metal case, > but it's worth no more than that to me. Such consumers are a big part of the problem; they would rather purchase cheap junk frequently than good quality products less freqently... hardly good for the environment either. -- Copyright (C) 2004 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & her other creatures, using dogma to justify such www.rddavis.org 410-744-4900 beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 8 17:06:25 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <40C6296B.20803@ox.compsoc.net> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <40C6296B.20803@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <1086732385.12001.168.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 21:02, Dan Kolb wrote: > If you're in London around a weekend, you could do much worse than > travelling a bit out and visiting Bletchley Park, which was the site of > the WW2 British code-breaking effort. And they even have a computer > museum on site :) > > http://www.bletchleypark.co.uk - On some weekends they have special > events; these are often worth looking out for. I missed the start of this, but come over on a Saturday as that's when most of us help out there - it tends to be a bit quieter on a Sunday. Most stuff runs every weekend - the bigger iron (DECs, the Marconi TAC etc.) sometimes remain off when the outside temperature is really high as there's no aircon in the museum room. The Elliott 803's currently down with a core fault unfortunately. The Colossus normally runs at weekends. cheers Jules From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 8 17:10:32 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:20 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: <6A303866-B992-11D8-9C35-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <6A303866-B992-11D8-9C35-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: I would really like to get ahold of the machine I used to have It looked like my previous ascii art (a monitor on the left that tilts, a tower on the right with two "drives" and a big motherboard. It's an IBM clone 8088 (nec V80?) with a CGA screen 80x24 color (If I remember correctly it was pretty bright) Anyone got one of these? What was it called (duh and I used to **work** for televideo too ) From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 8 17:14:28 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP In-Reply-To: <200406081726.NAA11121@wordstock.com> References: <200406081726.NAA11121@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200406081814.31677.kenziem@sympatico.ca> On Tuesday 08 June 2004 13:26, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly chris spake: > > So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd like this to > > be as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run the > > software in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to > > that functionality, the better). > > Chris, > > Have you tried DOSbox? --> http://dosbox.sourceforge.net . What about putting an old 486 running DOS onto the network to run this application? -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 17:21:41 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: >What about putting an old 486 running DOS onto the network to run this >application? There are currently 5 machines running it, and 5 new machines are going in to replace them. I don't think there will be room to leave the old machines in place. But it is one possible solution (and because it should only be needed for a few months, it is a reasonable solution) -chris From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 8 17:21:47 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003801c44da6$fd35d510$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I saved an H8 from someone's garbage, took it home, opened it up and > found a pot-pipe stuck inside. > (I quickly removed the pipe and took it back to the person's garbage > and placed it again in their > trash--hidden inside a pc-clone case that they were also > throwing out). > > Later that night I noticed that someone had taken the clone case...I > wonder what they thought of the surprise... I assume they thought the same as you did when you found what the guy who'd taken the Altair brought back :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 8 17:23:26 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040608140909.G15698@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003901c44da7$38248090$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I'm using a 233 MHz Dell laptop that was discarded because > they lost the NT login password I'm using a Tecra 8000 that was discarded because it had a BIOS password set that noone knew (and the keyboard is missing a key). The 286 laptop was discarded because noone (except me, I guess) cares about 286s any more. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 8 17:36:21 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Tiny BASIC Message-ID: <200406082236.PAA03095@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Walter and ClassicCmp I just checked Tom's web page and he has the 6502 tape dump there. It is for the KIM so it may need a little fiddling for some other computer. The code at 0100h is the terminal interface. Also, down load the manuals he has there. As I recall these explain how to match your console I/O to his TB. The tape form is similar to Intel hex. The first byte is the number of bytes of data. Next is the 16 bit address. The bytes follow. At the end of the line is a 16 bit checksum. I don't think this matches one of the more standard dump types. If you absolutely need it in Intel Hex, I can send you what I converted from the tape dumps. See: http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/TinyBasic/index.htm Later Dwight >From: walterpark >To: dwight.elvey@amd.com >Subject: Tiny BASIC >Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:48:14 -0700 > >I'm also interested. If you're emailing this out, please add my address to >your cc: list. > >I have one old hex print-out of TB for the 6502 on yellow TTY paper. >It sounds like you already have that in electronic form. > >Thanks. > >Walter Park > > > From CordaAJ at NSWC.NAVY.MIL Tue Jun 8 17:38:02 2004 From: CordaAJ at NSWC.NAVY.MIL (Corda Albert J DLVA) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Convex SPP(3?) .... Worth saving? Message-ID: <7B4C28C84831D211BFA200805F9F345605A16E68@nswcdlvaex04.nswc.navy.mil> Hey guys... I have a line on a Convex machine. The current owner is a guy who attends Govt. auctions and buys bulk, then scraps out stuff for gold/parts/etc... He calls me when he finds anything interesting, so... He says this is a Convex SPP3. (it's _heavy_... around 400 Lbs.) I haven't seen it yet, so I don't know anything more right now. Unfortunately, I have no knowledge of Convex stuff, and a web search turned up some Convex SPP stuff, but not much, and _nothing_ on an "SPP3". Can anyone enlighten me further? (Yep, I know it's an SMP architecture of some sort, but little more than that). A couple of questions... Is this machine historically significant? (I.e. worth saving?) Does anyone know of a source for documentation? (I've done a prelim. web/newsgroup search, but haven't turned anything up) Does anyone have (or know where I can find) a copy of an OS for it (apparently it's a unix variant. He told me that the disks were missing... not unusual for an auction item) 400 lbs is a bit large for me, but if there is a remote chance I can bring this critter back to life (and it's worth saving) it's probably worth the effort. I'll going to try to take a look at it and try to get some sort of model#/ident. Anything I should be looking out for or wary of? -al- -acorda@1bigred.com From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Jun 8 17:40:42 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <20040608224042.24877.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> The "Computer Museum of America" near San Diego, CA is quite nice. http://www.computer-museum.org/ --- "Parker, Kevin" wrote: > Well I probably run a high risk of getting flamed a > bit here but the wife and I are planning a trip - > figured we've worked long enough and deserve it. > > Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to > Sydney, then Los Angeles (to catch up with the > daughter), then New York, onto London, then maybe > Spain, then Zurich, over to Berlin, then Tokyo, down > to Singapore and then home. > > As we are in the planning phase Id' interested if > anyone knows if there are any computer museums (or > similar things of interest) in these locations. > > TIA!!! > > > +++++++++++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > e: webmaster@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > +++++++++++++++++++ > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee > only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated > confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the > intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or > copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not > necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although > precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this > e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other > defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please > notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the > original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 8 17:50:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Tiny BASIC Message-ID: <200406082250.PAA03103@clulw009.amd.com> Hi All For more stuff on the 6502, check: http://www.ping.be/kim-1__6502/ http://www.6502.org/ Later Dwight >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi Walter and ClassicCmp > I just checked Tom's web page and he has the 6502 >tape dump there. It is for the KIM so it may need >a little fiddling for some other computer. The >code at 0100h is the terminal interface. Also, >down load the manuals he has there. As I recall >these explain how to match your console I/O to >his TB. > The tape form is similar to Intel hex. The first >byte is the number of bytes of data. Next is the 16 bit >address. The bytes follow. At the end of the line >is a 16 bit checksum. I don't think this matches >one of the more standard dump types. > If you absolutely need it in Intel Hex, I can send >you what I converted from the tape dumps. > >See: >http://www.ittybittycomputers.com/IttyBitty/TinyBasic/index.htm > >Later >Dwight > >>From: walterpark >>To: dwight.elvey@amd.com >>Subject: Tiny BASIC >>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:48:14 -0700 >> >>I'm also interested. If you're emailing this out, please add my address to >>your cc: list. >> >>I have one old hex print-out of TB for the 6502 on yellow TTY paper. >>It sounds like you already have that in electronic form. >> >>Thanks. >> >>Walter Park >> >> >> > > > From ghldbrd at ccp.com Tue Jun 8 17:53:47 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <20040608224042.24877.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <20040608224042.24877.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3907.65.123.179.147.1086735227.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> > The "Computer Museum of America" near San Diego, CA is > quite nice. > > http://www.computer-museum.org/ I know of a computer museum in Bozeman, MT located within a short walk of the MSU campus there. This one I think is mostly about the microcomputer revolution of the 70's and 80's. I've been told it is rather impressive albeit physically small. I've even considered putting my stuff on permanent loan at the Patee Museum here in St. Joseph. Gary Hildebrand St. Joseph, MO From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 8 18:05:43 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040608221427.GQ30100@rhiannon.rddavis.org> Message-ID: <003c01c44dad$20142a90$5b01a8c0@athlon> > They're not service manuals then, regardless of their titles. I tend to agree - but I was given them for nothing so I'm not in much of a position to complain. Anyway, when I've been forced to purchase a real service manual for something I've needed to fix, the price has been anywhere between ?20 and ?90 (I assume the upper limit is higher and I've just been lucky). For a ?20 MP3 player I think I'll have to think long and hard before shelling out that much. > Why would anyone use a cassette player that is so poorly made > and apparently can't be calibrated? Dunno. I'd want a CD player anyway :-) Maybe if I take away SWMBO's credit and cash-point cards I can stem the influx of cheap stuff ... > > I'm happy that my washing machine is relatively > > cheap (bad example: easily repaired anyway). I'd be even > > About a year or so, I spoke with the executive assistant to > the president of a major washing machine and clothes dryer > manufacturer, who explained why the quality of the new > washing machines and clothes dryers is nowhere near as good > as the old ones. For one thing, they can't get the same My Zanussi laster 15 or so years before needing anything done to it (drain pump replacement IIRC). It made the 20 year mark before giving up the ghost. The Bosch seems to be going well but 3 years is a little early to be sure I guess. These both fit into the "cheap" category and wash with acceptable performance (or so I'm told). Of all the household items, these are the only ones on sub-millisecond response times in the event of failure :-) > Such consumers are a big part of the problem; they would > rather purchase cheap junk frequently than good quality > products less freqently... hardly good for the environment either. OTOH there's eejits who are trying to drive the price up :-) I hate junking stuff (although I drew the line at keeping the drum out of the old Zanussi "just in case"). But I can do simple sums to calculate expected cost-per-year of a product and if a cheap MP3 player costs ?20 and lasts 5 years (a guess, mine's still going after 3 despite being dropped) and an expensive one costs ?100 I'm going to want some significant reassurance that the ?100 one will last 25 years. If all you are saying is that you would like the opportunity to buy a ?100 MP3 player (I'm assuming that you can find one built to a spec that satisfies you for that price) then I'm all for that. But some of us would like to have a range of choices available which includes cheap stuff too. I occasionally pick up the TV rags here in the UK (I mean rags aimed at TV Service Engineers and not listings magazines). Pretty much every month there is a bit of a whinge about people not being prepared to pay to have a TV fixed (cost new, maybe ?50-?100 for a small one, typical call-out fee ?25 + ?25 for the first hour or part thereof: no I wouldn't pay that either!). The problem is not cheap goods but expensive people :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Tue Jun 8 18:18:43 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller References: <002c01c44d83$f8521540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <40C64953.8C948FBE@compsys.to> >Jay West wrote: > I believe I have a few spare RQDX2's, but those dont do RD53 drives just > RD52 I think? Jerome Fine replies: Controller Model Max RD5n Drive ------------------ ------------------ RQDX1 (M8639) RD51 RQDX1 (M8639-YA) RD52 RQDX3 (M8639-YB) RD53 RQDX3 (M7555) RD54 - RD3n drives also allowed NOTES: (1) RQDX1 must be the last board in the Qbus (i.e. ONLY one allowed) (2) All RQDXn also allow the RX50 (3) RQDX3 also allows the RX33 and RT-11 can FORMAT an RX33 media Any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 18:03:18 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: HP 7908 woes In-Reply-To: <20040608153521.95197.qmail@web13523.mail.yahoo.com> from "David Comley" at Jun 8, 4 08:35:21 am Message-ID: > By pulling boards I was able to isolate the problem to > the regulator board which contains three 12V supply > circuits, one each for the tape, logic and drive I assume it's one common fuse at the input to all 3 regulators. > spindle. I was able to identify high power thyristors > and op-amps on each 12V supply suggesting some sort of > crowbar arrangement for overvoltage protection (no Very likely. HP were good about providing crowbars on power rails (well, apart from in the 9815 and 9825 calculator, but I digress). Your problem could well be due to one of the crowbars firing. > schematics available and this is a four-layer PCB > which makes it hard to derive the actual circuit). I Wimp ! (:-)). 4 layes is hardly difficult. Now 8 layers, with all the signal tracks inside, that's a little harder (and I've done that and survived). > haven't checked the thyristors for shorts yet but I > believe the problem is either a defective thyristor or > some defect in one of the voltage comparators, maybe a > dead zener or something. Or a shorted pass transistor (I asusme this is a linear regulator, are there any fat inductors on the board?). Any chips -- watch out for 10 lead metal can devices in HP power supples. These are nearly always 723 regulators (and might be used in linear or switching circuits!). If the chips have HP numbers (1820-xxxx, 1826-xxxx), post them and I'll look them up for you. A shorted pass transistor sounds likely, if only because I'd expect current limiting in a supply like this. If the supply overcurrents (possibly due to the crowbar firing), then the thing should remove the base drive to the pass transistor, shutting the supply down. Of course if the transistor is shorted, this doesn't do a lot, hence the blown fuse. > > I need to keep the fuse from blowing long enough to > figure out why the overvoltage protection is > triggering. What would be the risk in trying to defeat > the overvoltage protection without any load connected If it's a linear supply, there should be no danger at all. A switcher could be 'interesting' under such conditions (you might blow other components in the supply), but there are problems with it anyway, so it probably wouldn't do that much harm in any case. But I'd check the power transistors for dead shorts first. > to the regulated 12V lines ? I assume I could do this > by disconnecting the gate of each thyristor. I'd just desolder the thyristors completely. And remove _all_ other boards from the instrument, unplug the drive power cables, etc. Don't trust that they don't use the 12V line, get them out of the way. Pity I don't have this device, or I could probably be a lot more help... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 18:07:40 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP In-Reply-To: <40C60BDE.D2C9AC5F@brothom.nl> from "Bert Thomas" at Jun 8, 4 07:56:30 pm Message-ID: > Find out why it's not working? [Tony's standard rant here, but replace > 'hardware' with 'software' ;-)] :-) Yes, my comments apply to software, hardware, electronics, mechanical stuff, just about anything... You will never solve a problem by making random changes in the hope it goes away (it might well seem to be cured, but it may also come back to 'bite' you later). Fautlfinding is done by making 'measurments' (in the widest possible sense -- in other words gathering evidence), thinking about what you've observed, and then working out what to do to put it right. Yes, this is a rant of mine. I've been caught too often by idiots who don't follow this method... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 17:42:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Possibly OT: FW: Vintage Laptops Wanted In-Reply-To: <20040608031306.GB4085@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 8, 4 03:13:06 am Message-ID: > > I'm still using a Compaq 286 laptop to drive my EPROM/Device programmer. I still use a real IBM PC/XT for that ;-) Another use for older laptops, of course, is a portable data logger/measuring system. Make an ADC module that connects to the printer port. Actually I use an HP71 + HP3421 for this (very nice toys...) and that has ample processor power to, say, connect different loads to a power supply and measure the output voltage for each load. Sure beats doing it by hand!. Another point that's often missed is that if a task can be done automatically, it doesn't really matter if it takes 5 minutes or 15 minutes, or even longer. You set it going and come back when it's finished (and do something else while the computer is doing the job for you). > > I also use an XT-class laptop with dual 720K floppies and a Xircom PE3 > "pocket Ethernet adapter" and Kermit as a portable "telnet terminal" Not a laptop, but as I've menitoned before I routinely use the HP95LX and HP100LX palmtops as portable (pocket, even) RS232 terminals. Very useful for testing serial ports, configuring those Qbus disk controllers with the RS232 config port, and so on. > The most expensive of these was $15 with a carrying case. Batteries are > an issue, but the XT laptop uses a wad of C-cell-sized NiCds - easy enough > to rebuild. My Amstrad PPC640 laptop (which I paid a little more than $15 for, but it did come with TechRef and Service manuals) runs off primary C cells. 10 of them. I normally connect it to my bench PSU :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 17:46:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: OT: laser printer for sale In-Reply-To: <20040608102514.4a57b5b3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jun 8, 4 10:25:14 am Message-ID: > > > I have it connected to my PC with a standard printer cable. > > Well, that won't work for me since I don't use pee seas.=20 > There are "print servers". Litle boxes with a Centronics parallel port At one time the better PC shops sold serial -> parallel (and the reverse) converters. Little boxes containing a microcontroller and not much else which let you hang a parallel printer off a serial port, or vice versa. I guess they're no longer easily available (they were useful, and it's a well known fact that, at least in the UK, PC shops don't sell useful stuff). But it's not exavtly difficult to design one! And there must have been magazine projects for these over the years (I think I remember one in 80-micro...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 8 18:42:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <003c01c44dad$20142a90$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 9, 4 00:05:43 am Message-ID: > > > They're not service manuals then, regardless of their titles. > > I tend to agree - but I was given them for nothing so > I'm not in much of a position to complain. Anyway, Wel, I complain about boardswapper guides even if they're free. The worst I've ever seen is the one for the Torch XXX -- no schematics, and what little technical info there is (like the block diagram) is wrong. And a glossary that seems to be aimed at people with a mental age of 2 (and that's being generous!). Still, I have my own notes on the XXX which, even if I say so myself, are actually useful... > when I've been forced to purchase a real service=20 > manual for something I've needed to fix, the price > has been anywhere between =A320 and =A390 (I assume I bought the manuals for an old portable VCR and video camera system recently, and they cost \pounds 40.00 for the 3 manuals (camera, VCR, tuner/timer/PSU). I am not complaining! > the upper limit is higher and I've just been lucky). Try looking at DEC printset prices sometime... :-) > For a =A320 MP3 player I think I'll have to think > long and hard before shelling out that much. Well, if the manual costs, say, \pounds 40, and you do, say, 3 repairs using cheap components, then it's saved you money... I never object to buyunbg real service data. > > > Why would anyone use a cassette player that is so poorly made=20 > > and apparently can't be calibrated? > > Dunno. I'd want a CD player anyway :-) Maybe if I take I'd want reel-to-reel :-) > OTOH there's eejits who are trying to drive the price up :-) Well, if stuff was more expensive, you'd not mind buying the service manuals, you'd not mind paying a sensible rate to have it repaired if you couldn't do it yourself. > I hate junking stuff (although I drew the line at keeping the > drum out of the old Zanussi "just in case"). But I can do IO asusme you did keep the useful bits (solenoid valves, motor, pump, etc), though. > simple sums to calculate expected cost-per-year of a product > and if a cheap MP3 player costs =A320 and lasts 5 years > (a guess, mine's still going after 3 despite being dropped) > and an expensive one costs =A3100 I'm going to want some > significant reassurance that the =A3100 one will last > 25 years. > > If all you are saying is that you would like the > opportunity to buy a =A3100 MP3 player (I'm assuming That is, basically, what I am asking. I don't mind if other people are happy with 50 quid VCRs (provided they don't expect me to work on them!), but _I'd_ like to spend a little more (say about 10 times that) and get something that was properly made. Actually VCRs are a sort point with me at the moment. My parents want a second one. As they store my collection and test gear, they expect me to fix things, so I desparately don't want them to get one of the sub-100-quid ones. I am actually looking for an old Fergusson 3V23, FV14, etc (or their JVC versions), knowing that even if I have to spend another 100 quid on a head drum, service kit (rubber parts, tension band, etc), the result will be worth it. > that you can find one built to a spec that > satisfies you for that price) then I'm all for that. > But some of us would like to have a range of choices > available which includes cheap stuff too. No problem. I guess it's like cameras. Some peeople seem to be happy with their digital things, for all the results _always_ look terrible to my eyes. I'll stick to large-format film, thank you (which seems to be roughly equivalent to 500 -- 1000 megapixels!). > > I occasionally pick up the TV rags here in the UK > (I mean rags aimed at TV Service Engineers and not > listings magazines). Pretty much every month there > is a bit of a whinge about people not being > prepared to pay to have a TV fixed (cost new, > maybe =A350-=A3100 for a small one, typical call-out And if tVs were more expensive to replace (sau a new one cost \pounds 500) then they would be prepared to pay for repairs. > fee =A325 + =A325 for the first hour or part thereof: > no I wouldn't pay that either!). The problem is > not cheap goods but expensive people :-)=20 Do you seriously think you should pay less than \pounds 25 per hour? That's what I charge for fixing HP calculators, and I have been told that I am massively underselling myself. Problem is, if I charged any more, even fewer people would pay for the repairs... -tony From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 8 19:00:36 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20040609005533.046e5008@pop.freeserve.net> At 18:21 08/06/2004 -0400, chris wrote: > >What about putting an old 486 running DOS onto the network to run this > >application? > >There are currently 5 machines running it, and 5 new machines are going >in to replace them. I don't think there will be room to leave the old >machines in place. But it is one possible solution (and because it should >only be needed for a few months, it is a reasonable solution) How many people would need to access the old software, and how many at any one time? We got around this exact same problem at one site by situating a sample old machine in a handy corner, and running pcAnywhere to it from each of the new PCs that wanted to use the application. You could use realVNC for free instead of pcAw, or any of a similar range of products. ... Why spend to install a virtual PC when you can access a real one :-) From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 8 19:09:34 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: "Fond memories", was "Re: Interesting video" In-Reply-To: <6A303866-B992-11D8-9C35-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > >> I think the TS-803H was a CPM machine... Televideo made those and they > >> looked > >> the same but never a cga like screen > >> > >> Monitor that tilts attached to a vertical motherboard with two > >> floppies > >> stacked sideways (short edges - stacked tall) > > > > Yes, the TS-803H was a CP/M machine and its monitor was not CGA. > > > >> TPC was the portable - I don't think they ever > >> made a cpm portable. > > > > Au contraire! The TPC-1 was a CP/M machine. I have one. > > Is the TPC-1 a monitor next to a slab next to a floppy hd or floppy > pair? It looks more like my revision below. (np is nameplate) +---------------------------------------------+ | +----------------------+ | | +---+ | monitor | +-----+-----+| | | np| | | | | || | +---+ | | | F | F || | | | | L | L || | | | | P | P || | | | | Y | Y || | | | | | || | | | | | || | | | | | || | | | +-----+-----+| | +----------------------+ | +---------------------------------------------+ > I though it was more the osbourn Well, in that the keyboard is housed in the front cover, there is a similarity. - don From lsprung at optonline.net Tue Jun 8 20:23:46 2004 From: lsprung at optonline.net (lance sprung) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Saw on Ebay: 1959 Brainiac K-30 available on ebay Message-ID: Thought I would bring everyone's attention to the 1959 Brainiac K-30 currently listed on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5100613088 Talk about a technology artifact. WOW! From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 8 21:04:08 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: sorry for email delays Message-ID: <001101c44dc6$0d370730$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Sorry to all those who are waiting on emails from me. My mailbox has hit 3000 emails and I just can't make myself go through it all yet, so I'm pretty much only responding to 'emergency' emails. I do plan on making it to VCF east, as long as several other people are planning to be there with certain gear. Was hoping to bring up a bunch of HP cabinets and 7906 drives and 13037 controllers and a 21mx or two. I know I promised the 7906 drives would be refurbed, but I"m not sure I'll get to that in time. The 13037's have been refurbed though. Hopefully I'll be bringing a big load of stuff back and some DEC rack sidepanels! woohoo! Anyways, my apologies to all who are patiently waiting for me to respond. I'll wade through it all sometime fairly soon. Jay From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 8 21:37:22 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Simulators & AppleII copy protected disks ? Message-ID: <200406090237.i592bMhc034537@huey.classiccmp.org> Hi Guys, I have a friend who has recently retired an Apple IIe in favor of running a simulator. He was able to use ADT and a serial card to transfer most of his disk images over to the PC for use with the simulation, however certain copy-protected games could not be transferred. Does anyone know if there is software available to transfer Apple II disk images on a raw-binary basis (ie: not necessarily well formed sectors), and if so, are there any simulators which can make use of such images? I know this would be fairly complex, as the Apple could do half tracks etc., and timing can be critical to many Apple copy protection schemes. These factors would also have to be delt with somehow - is there anything available which can do this? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 8 21:53:36 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: <200406090253.TAA03231@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> Find out why it's not working? [Tony's standard rant here, but replace >> 'hardware' with 'software' ;-)] > >:-) > >Yes, my comments apply to software, hardware, electronics, mechanical >stuff, just about anything... You will never solve a problem by making >random changes in the hope it goes away (it might well seem to be cured, >but it may also come back to 'bite' you later). Hi One most often introduces more problems by random fiddling. > >Fautlfinding is done by making 'measurments' (in the widest possible >sense -- in other words gathering evidence), thinking about what you've >observed, and then working out what to do to put it right. I'd like to add this here. Fault finding is a cycle: 1. Gather evidence 2. Make hypothesis consistent with the evidence 3. Create test to verify hypothesis 4. Repeat from 1 if that test didn't work and add this new result as new evidence. Number 4 may include replacing a part but usually not unless you are really sure that you've exhausted all the angles. The first rule of intelligent tinkering is, of course, "save all the pieces". The second rule is "don't fix it if it ain't broken". The second rule applies to step 4 as far as doing random replacements. Swapping boards is not all that bad if you are sure you have the right board from repeated steps 1 to 4. When working on old computers, expect to spend time repairing that board as well. Just my thoughts. Dwight > >Yes, this is a rant of mine. I've been caught too often by idiots who >don't follow this method... > >-tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 8 22:01:47 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040608194850.C29363@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, chris wrote: > Its a medical scheduling application called Perfect Care. presumably not related to the "Perfect Software" office suite of 20 years ago You're in a bit of a bind - the support people say they have problems but won't say (OR DON'T KNOW) what the exact problem is, and it doesn't sound like the users can give you much usable information about the problem. > >blocked "for security reasons" (such as writing disk sectors), > >then it won't run any better with VPC. > Won't it? VPC makes the software think it is running on its own computer. > So I would think the software could write to "disk sectors" inside VPC. > >From there VPC would take care of altering that into whatever method XP > wishes to be used. Some things can be simulated easily, and some can't. Familiar with "Pro-lock"? It was a protection scheme that actually relied on physical damage to the disk. Some of the more extreme uses of it actually made an attempt to write to the bad sectors to confirm that they really would get a "physical" error. THAT can't be properly simulated (although replacing the "checking" subroutine with a RET solves it) OB_OT: Vault Corporation, the makers of Pro-Lock went out of business due to the public reaction to their announcement of Pro-Lock-PLUS. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 8 22:08:48 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <20040608140909.G15698@newshell.lmi.net> References: <003201c44ce1$b83d1560$5b01a8c0@athlon> <5.1.1.6.0.20040608123135.0b2fb3d0@pop.freeserve.net> <20040608140909.G15698@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040609030848.GC27002@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 08, 2004 at 02:10:24PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > I'm using a 233 MHz Dell laptop that was discarded because they lost the > NT login password Nice! My "daily drive" is a Dell P-II 300 on which I'm running RedHat 9.0. It was a freebie from a friend who cobbled it together from the scrap bin at the company he works at, after my old laptop was stolen from a convention we were both at. It was literally assembled from stacks of random laptop parts on a shelf. I asked him if I'd left my P-166 Latitude in his suite after the party... he said "I didn't find any antiques there", and he offered to build me a replacement after it was clear that mine had grown legs. The only thing I really "lost" with the old one was two weeks of work on ZDungeon that hadn't been backed up yet. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 09-Jun-2004 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.0 F (-61.7 C) Windchill -120.9 F (-85 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.2 kts Grid 047 Barometer 669.1 mb (11038. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 22:44:47 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: >> Its a medical scheduling application called Perfect Care. > >presumably not related to the "Perfect Software" office suite >of 20 years ago Er, I don't know. http://www.sticomputer.com/ I did just realize their NY Metro office is in Oakland, which is only a short drive for me (10-15 minutes depending on traffic). And I will actually be in Oakland Thursday morning anyway. Maybe I'll just stop in to their office and see if I can have a talk with someone. Although I know when I called the NY Metro office earlier, they redirected me to an 800 number for support, so there may be no one available in Oakland to help me. If I can at least get out of them what fails under XP, I may be able to find a work around. -chris From cb at mythtech.net Tue Jun 8 22:49:38 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Simulators & AppleII copy protected disks ? Message-ID: >Does anyone know if there is software available to transfer Apple II >disk images on a raw-binary basis (ie: not necessarily well formed >sectors), and if so, are there any simulators which can make use of >such images? > >I know this would be fairly complex, as the Apple could do half >tracks etc., and timing can be critical to many Apple copy protection >schemes. These factors would also have to be delt with somehow - is >there anything available which can do this? I don't know about getting past the copy protection, but there is at least one fairly vast archive of Apple II software available online. I never remember the exact address, but it is something with asimov.net (the A2 newsgroups usually make mention of it from time to time) Your friend can always check there to see if the software he needs to transfer has already been made into a disk image that he may be able to use with the emulator. -chris From GOOI at oce.nl Wed Jun 9 01:13:19 2004 From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: <3C9C07E832765C4F92E96B06BDC0747A102C28@gd-mail03.oce.nl> > And thusly chris spake: > > > > So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd > like this to be > > as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run > the software > > in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to that > > functionality, the better). > > > > Chris, > > Have you tried DOSbox? --> http://dosbox.sourceforge.net . > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope Here's an othere one: http://www.freedos.org/ - Henk, PA8PDP From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 03:54:37 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of Boston... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040608143334.00af3fc8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I met a guy over Memorial day weekend, that says the best place for lobster > is at "Anthony's Pier 4"... > > That said, has there been any headway WRT lodging arrangments & whatnot for > VCF East? I need to get on this. Expect something by the end of the week (Friday-ish). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 03:59:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Parker, Kevin wrote: > Well I probably run a high risk of getting flamed a bit here but the > wife and I are planning a trip - figured we've worked long enough and > deserve it. > > Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to Sydney, then Los > Angeles (to catch up with the daughter), then New York, onto London, > then maybe Spain, then Zurich, over to Berlin, then Tokyo, down to > Singapore and then home. Quite the itinerary. You must, of course, make it up to the Silicon Valley to visit the Computer History Museum. In the UK there's Bletchley Park. In Berlin there's the Deutsches Technikmuseum Berlin (Berlin Technical Museum) with Zuse machines, including a re-creation of the Z-1. If you end up in Tokyo after the 17th of July (which seems likely given your itinerary) then you can catch a working "PDP-1" at the National Science Museum in their history of video games exhibit. Have fun! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 04:00:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Bob Brown wrote: > I saved an H8 from someone's garbage, took it home, opened it up and > found a pot-pipe stuck inside. Party! > (I quickly removed the pipe and took it back to the person's garbage > and placed it again in their > trash--hidden inside a pc-clone case that they were also throwing out). You should've smoked the resin! > Later that night I noticed that someone had taken the clone case...I > wonder what they thought of the surprise... They probably smoked the resin! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 04:01:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Bob Brown wrote: > I saved an H8 from someone's garbage, took it home, opened it up and > found a pot-pipe stuck inside. By the way, that's quite a score (the H8 of course :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Wed Jun 9 05:07:40 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? References: Message-ID: <009d01c44e09$9a6f15a0$4601a8c0@ebrius> That's funny, I don't remember throwing out an H8. > On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Bob Brown wrote: > > I saved an H8 from someone's garbage, took it home, opened it up and > found a pot-pipe stuck inside. "Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Wed Jun 9 05:11:34 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Stag plus stuff-including CPD1802s References: <20040608224042.24877.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0a2b01c44e0a$24ed7dc0$6a00a8c0@athlon> Someone might be interested in this. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Electronics/Other/auction-12338154.htm No connection to, or knowledge of, the seller. DaveB From menadeau at comcast.net Wed Jun 9 06:43:33 2004 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? References: Message-ID: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike> I'm sure the Portable is a review model. Such stickers were common for hardware sent out to magaziner reviewers, analysts, key customers, etc. prior to it becoming commercially available. This system might be identical to a commercial model, but it's just as possible there will be minor differences. --Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 12:12 AM Subject: Prerelease Mac Portable? > I noticed this on ebay tonight: > > 2> > > Seller thinks it may be a prerelease model because the FCC sticker says > it isn't approved and can't be sold. Possibly they are correct, maybe it > was a review model sent out before they hit the stores. > > I'd love to have it, opening bid of $9.99, but I'm sure it will go above > my price range before it closes (and now that I've pointed it out here, > that's almost a sure event). > > -chris > > > From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Wed Jun 9 06:59:09 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for all of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, as long as the price was reasonable. Take Care, Mark "Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 9 08:43:34 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: OS/2 Message-ID: >Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for all >of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? > >I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no >longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, >as long as the price was reasonable. You should have asked a week ago... I just gave two full copies of OS/2 Warp (2.0? 3.0?) to someone else on this list. Maybe if he doesn't want them he will contact you and give/sell you one (I don't know what his needs for them were... they were in a box of software that I told him to pick thru and take what he wanted... so he may or may not be willing to give one up) -chris From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 9 08:53:13 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: Message-ID: <002b01c44e29$1c571030$99100f14@mcothran1> I think I still have multiple versions of it, as well as manuals, somewhere in my attic, left over from my late 1980s days programming in OS/2 and Presentation Manager. If I can dig them out, you're welcome to the whole batch of stuff. There are LOTS of manuals, including those for DB2/2. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:43 AM Subject: Re: OS/2 > >Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for all > >of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? > > > >I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no > >longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, > >as long as the price was reasonable. > > You should have asked a week ago... I just gave two full copies of OS/2 > Warp (2.0? 3.0?) to someone else on this list. Maybe if he doesn't want > them he will contact you and give/sell you one (I don't know what his > needs for them were... they were in a box of software that I told him to > pick thru and take what he wanted... so he may or may not be willing to > give one up) > > -chris > > From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Wed Jun 9 09:32:34 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike> <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Message-ID: <001301c44e2e$acb19d80$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Firestone" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:59 AM Subject: OS/2 > Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for all > of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? > > I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no > longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, > as long as the price was reasonable. > > Take Care, > > Mark > > "Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Website - http://www.retrobbs.org > Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org > BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 > IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main > WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki There is a new, unopened OS/2 Warp Version 3 on floppies at the local Sally Ann. If you promise to pay me 5 bucks plus shipping I will pick it up tomorrow morning if it is still there. I already have one but it's opened and I want to keep it. Email me off the list if you want it. Mail would be from Toronto and the thing weighs about 4 pounds approx. bm From bert at brothom.nl Wed Jun 9 11:04:01 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike> <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Message-ID: <40C734F1.A865B394@brothom.nl> Mark Firestone wrote: > > Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for all > of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? > > I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no > longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, > as long as the price was reasonable. You should check out http://www.ecomstation.com OS/2 is still available for ordinary people, but is sold now by a company called "Serenity Systems" as eComStation. Although they probably improved it and added support for new hardware, it is just OS/2. IBM still maintains OS/2 for large customers. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 9 10:53:18 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Speaking of Boston... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406091053.18259.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 09 June 2004 03:54, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > I met a guy over Memorial day weekend, that says the best place for > > lobster is at "Anthony's Pier 4"... > > > > That said, has there been any headway WRT lodging arrangments & > > whatnot for VCF East? > > I need to get on this. Expect something by the end of the week > (Friday-ish). Do you also have plans to update the exhibitor rules doc for VCF East? It's got all the dates and times from VCF 6.0 on it... I can probably figure things out without it, but it's not 100% clear on a thing or two. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kenziem at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 9 11:00:38 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: CORMEMCO harddrive boot Message-ID: <200406091200.38331.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Cromemco RDOS 02.52 no boot Found the disconnected HD power connector and reattached it. The HD is now spinning but what is the command to get it to boot from the harddrive? OR does anyone have a spare 8" floppy with a cromemco system three boot setup? - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAxzQmLPrIaE/xBZARAjlWAJ9MEgqHP6KQZoSijKAZxWINcr332wCgigoY kADFFprB2IJHSMFAUXzBG+U= =RsyK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 11:07:43 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board Message-ID: <40C735CF.3020609@mdrconsult.com> I have a full-length ISA board marked "Cheetah Int'l Cheetah Cub 2Mbyte Fast Memory". Copyright 1986 It has 4 banks of 18 socketed memory chips marked: USA 8726 B MT 1259-10 I'm guessing those are 10ns 32KB chips? I'm really curious what this board will work with and its history. Google seems not to know it exists. Doc From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 9 10:44:14 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:21 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <20040609174414.3ae6d9aa.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 10:21:51 +0930 "Parker, Kevin" wrote: > As we are in the planning phase Id' interested if anyone knows if > there are any computer museums (or similar things of interest) in > these locations. M?nchen, Deutsches Museum (rebuild Zuse Z3 etc.) M?nchen, Collection of Hans Franke M?nchen, Cray-Cyber project. (http://www.Cray-Cyber.org/) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Wed Jun 9 11:24:48 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board References: <40C735CF.3020609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000701c44e3e$5a957660$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: ; "Discussion@mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: Cheetah Cub board > I have a full-length ISA board marked "Cheetah Int'l Cheetah Cub > 2Mbyte Fast Memory". Copyright 1986 > > It has 4 banks of 18 socketed memory chips marked: > > USA 8726 B > MT 1259-10 > > I'm guessing those are 10ns 32KB chips? > > I'm really curious what this board will work with and its history. > Google seems not to know it exists. > > > Doc Cheetah Internation is still around. They make captioning items as well as steno stuff, as in court transcripts, etc. http://www.cheetahinternational.com/ bm From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 11:25:56 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board Message-ID: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> that is a Micron part number for a 100ns 256K ram. It is probably an EXPANDED memory card unless it has two bus connectors then it might be EXTENDED memory (didn't we just have a conversation about PC memory...) It is more than likely one of the two memory standards and will work in any OLD PC. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Doc Shipley Sent: Jun 9, 2004 12:07 PM To: General@mdrconsult.com, Discussion@mdrconsult.com@null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null@null Subject: Cheetah Cub board I have a full-length ISA board marked "Cheetah Int'l Cheetah Cub 2Mbyte Fast Memory". Copyright 1986 It has 4 banks of 18 socketed memory chips marked: USA 8726 B MT 1259-10 I'm guessing those are 10ns 32KB chips? I'm really curious what this board will work with and its history. Google seems not to know it exists. Doc From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Wed Jun 9 11:30:20 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board References: <40C735CF.3020609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <000b01c44e3f$20527ec0$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: ; "Discussion@mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 12:07 PM Subject: Cheetah Cub board > I have a full-length ISA board marked "Cheetah Int'l Cheetah Cub > 2Mbyte Fast Memory". Copyright 1986 > > It has 4 banks of 18 socketed memory chips marked: > > USA 8726 B > MT 1259-10 > > I'm guessing those are 10ns 32KB chips? > > I'm really curious what this board will work with and its history. > Google seems not to know it exists. > > > Doc also: http://groups.google.ca/groups?q=cheetah+international&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&selm=1991Jul2.215443.13892%40tss.com&rnum=3 use edit to find cheetah, useful one is way down the page bm From jrkeys at concentric.net Wed Jun 9 11:29:14 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Help with Lisa Needed Message-ID: <007101c44e3e$e8be9700$42406b43@66067007> Does anyone know for sure that if the 4 batteries on the Lisa motherboard are dead, if that will prevent it from powering up? This machine was working about 3 years back when it went into storage. Thanks for any tips. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Wed Jun 9 11:45:38 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <6FD7F15C-BA34-11D8-8D5E-000A9585D8F6@bluewin.ch> > > Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to Sydney, then Los > Angeles (to catch up with the daughter), then New York, onto London, > then maybe Spain, then Zurich, over to Berlin, then Tokyo, down to > Singapore and then home. > While in Zurich, forget classic computers and go visit the Alps. (Jungfraujoch on a good day..)..... There are a few privat computer collections , but no public ones at the moment. Not too far away is this one : http://www.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ifi/cs/cm002.html Jos, 16 km from Z?rich. From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 9 11:53:07 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C735CF.3020609@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > I have a full-length ISA board marked "Cheetah Int'l Cheetah Cub > 2Mbyte Fast Memory". Copyright 1986 > > It has 4 banks of 18 socketed memory chips marked: > > USA 8726 B > MT 1259-10 > > I'm guessing those are 10ns 32KB chips? > AFAIK, they're 100ns. g. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 9 11:51:11 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Help with Lisa Needed In-Reply-To: <007101c44e3e$e8be9700$42406b43@66067007> References: <007101c44e3e$e8be9700$42406b43@66067007> Message-ID: >Does anyone know for sure that if the 4 batteries on the Lisa motherboard >are dead, if that will prevent it from powering up? This machine was working >about 3 years back when it went into storage. Thanks for any tips. It shouldn't, I removed the batteries on mine. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 12:05:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? In-Reply-To: <009d01c44e09$9a6f15a0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Mark Firestone wrote: > That's funny, I don't remember throwing out an H8. Well of course you don't, pot-head! :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 12:11:25 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <000701c44e3e$5a957660$6402a8c0@home> References: <40C735CF.3020609@mdrconsult.com> <000701c44e3e$5a957660$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <40C744BD.1020608@mdrconsult.com> Brian Mahoney wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doc Shipley" > To: ; "Discussion@mdrconsult.com :On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 12:07 PM > Subject: Cheetah Cub board > >> I have a full-length ISA board marked "Cheetah Int'l Cheetah Cub >>2Mbyte Fast Memory". Copyright 1986 >> >> I'm really curious what this board will work with and its history. >>Google seems not to know it exists. >> > Cheetah Internation is still around. They make captioning items as well as > steno stuff, as in court transcripts, etc. > http://www.cheetahinternational.com/ Yeah, but they seem not to know they ever made this. At least they don't unless I give them money.... Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 12:28:27 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > that is a Micron part number for a 100ns 256K ram. It is probably an EXPANDED memory card unless it has two bus connectors then it might be EXTENDED memory (didn't we just have a conversation about PC memory...) Ehh? 256K? So either the board provides 16MB of RAM, and the 2Mbyte silkscreen is just the shipped configuration, or somebody was wasting 87% of their money? BTW, the 10ns was a brain fart. I dunno much about DRAM, but I can read the -6, -7, and -etc extensions... :) So, more relevant to me, is the board itself worth anything outside the DRAMs? I have a friend doing a 68000 SBC project who could use some, and I think some of the rest would look fabulous on my Amiga 2000's A2091 board. One note - It looks like the DIP switches can be set per bank, but without docs, I'm guessing that taking any of the RAM off will render it inoperable. > It is more than likely one of the two memory standards and will work in any OLD PC. But I don't have any old PCs. :) BTW, your line wraps seem to be set to 256 or something. Doc From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 9 12:30:15 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston In-Reply-To: <200406081815.OAA14171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> (der Mouse's message of "Tue, 8 Jun 2004 14:11:36 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20040608154050.RGVJ18566.out011.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net> <200406081815.OAA14171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <0qd648skpk.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> >> i have a dozen or so mostly decstations and vax vlc4000 and >> vaxstations to give away. the decstations are mostly loaded with >> ram (96mb?) and many boxen have ultrix loaded. in addition i have >> cables, tapdrives, cdroms and yes megamonitors, terminals, scsi >> hubs (?) and connectors galore. >> trouble is: all is in one heap, i forgot which goes to what! incl >> passwords! other trouble: all has to go in one fell swoop, no >> cherry picking. other trouble: it wont fit in a gmc suburban, u >> need a van. other trouble: i wont lift the junk. other trouble: its >> in downtown boston, you can park in front of the house, and no, the >> hydrant has been moved. last trouble: its free. If anyone snags this, please followup to the list. I would be willing to hold a few items for folks coming in for VCF East, but no way am I hauling the whole pile, especially not monitors. Or maybe folks coming in can arrange to go see him themselves then, unless he actually finds someone willing to do the whole batch. If someone else wants to coordinate parting things out, I'm interested in tape drives, vlc's or other vs4000's, and maybe some disks for the stations I already have. Does E.L.I. in Cambridge still touch any of this stuff? --akb From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 12:32:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Speaking of Boston... In-Reply-To: <200406091053.18259.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Do you also have plans to update the exhibitor rules doc for VCF East? > It's got all the dates and times from VCF 6.0 on it... I can probably > figure things out without it, but it's not 100% clear on a thing or > two. Yes :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Wed Jun 9 12:58:38 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: L-COM IEEE-488 GPIB 3.0m cables (CIB24-3M) anyone? Message-ID: I located a handful of these, they are never-used, brand new. I don't have a use for them any more, maybe you do. They are $92 a piece new from l-com, I'd be willing to let them go for less :-) Specs are here: http://www.l-com.com/jump.jsp?lGen=detail&itemID=2789&itemType=PRODUCT&iMainCat=95&iSubCat=96&iSubSubCat=0&iProductID=2789 Drop me an email if interested. Thanks. From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Jun 9 12:15:17 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Sandia and Los Alamos Auction In-Reply-To: <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> References: <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> Message-ID: <40C745A5.3000908@theriver.com> Hi All Another Los Alamos, Sandia Auction this weekend. If you live within a driving radius of Albuquerque, you should really check these out. I unfortunatly cannot make it this weekend. :-( So someone else will have to bid on the Sun Enterprise 450 : http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/pages/MVC-016S_JPG.htm There are also several Ultra 10's 5's and 2's As well as your SGI Octanes, O2's and an Impact 10000 Also a Digital RA90 Rack and a Vax 4000-400 and several MV II's Complete list: http://www.bentleysauction.com/misc/catalogs/nm061204.txt And this time they even have some pictures: http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/index.htm Having been to these auctions before. This stuff goes real cheap!! Have fun!! Cheers Tom --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 13:35:42 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board Message-ID: <20687974.1086806148606.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> hmmm, I thought there were four rows of 18 chips. That sounds like 8 banks of 256K which seems like 2meg to me... unless I got something wrong as for board worth, the 256K chips are worth a bit. I found a site that had them for sale at $0.75 each. If you need a PC to run it in, buy one on eBay... LOL (couldn't help that one) best regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: Doc Shipley Sent: Jun 9, 2004 1:28 PM To: General@mdrconsult.com, Discussion@mdrconsult.com@null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null@null Subject: Re: Cheetah Cub board Steve Thatcher wrote: > that is a Micron part number for a 100ns 256K ram. It is probably an EXPANDED memory card unless it has two bus connectors then it might be EXTENDED memory (didn't we just have a conversation about PC memory...) Ehh? 256K? So either the board provides 16MB of RAM, and the 2Mbyte silkscreen is just the shipped configuration, or somebody was wasting 87% of their money? BTW, the 10ns was a brain fart. I dunno much about DRAM, but I can read the -6, -7, and -etc extensions... :) So, more relevant to me, is the board itself worth anything outside the DRAMs? I have a friend doing a 68000 SBC project who could use some, and I think some of the rest would look fabulous on my Amiga 2000's A2091 board. One note - It looks like the DIP switches can be set per bank, but without docs, I'm guessing that taking any of the RAM off will render it inoperable. > It is more than likely one of the two memory standards and will work in any OLD PC. But I don't have any old PCs. :) BTW, your line wraps seem to be set to 256 or something. Doc From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 9 13:58:30 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006b01c44e53$c1ac4080$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Well, if the manual costs, say, \pounds 40, and you do, say, > 3 repairs > using cheap components, then it's saved you money... The stuff I have does not seem to break very often. Off-hand there's been this MP3 player that was dropped, a solar powered garden light, a washing machine, a cassette player and two TVs. The MP3 needed no manual (just glue!), the light was trivial to trace (probably not worth the effort since the fault was always going to be the LDR, but fun nevertheless), no manual needed for the washing machine (although I did buy that Haynes guide a while ago) and the TVs I could find schematics for in the RTSE Guide (is that still going these days?). I'd be upset if something broke three times :-) > I never > object to > buyunbg real service data. I'm not sure how you can tell, before buying, that the manual is of any use (short of having previously seen one). I expect sedning it back with "insufficient data, please refund" won't work. I've seen Mauritron do a bunch of CDs with manuals - not too expensive for a CD I guess but I have no idea what the manuals themselves would be like. I may take a punt on a CD if I ever need one ... > > Dunno. I'd want a CD player anyway :-) Maybe if I take > > I'd want reel-to-reel :-) Why am I not surprised :-) > Well, if stuff was more expensive, you'd not mind buying the service > manuals, you'd not mind paying a sensible rate to have it > repaired if you > couldn't do it yourself. Most of the stuff I buy, I buy to have it perform a specific function. I don't want the washing machine to do anything other than wash perfectlt, time after time, without ever failing (or, if that's too hard, without ever failing during my lifetime). I also want to minimise the amount I spend on it. I don't see why I should pay more purely to justify any future repairs on an economic basis. Same goes for TVs and the rest. As it happens I'll fix both of those if it seems worthwhile, but there are other things I'd rather spend my time and money on. > IO asusme you did keep the useful bits (solenoid valves, motor, pump, > etc), though. Oh yes :-) In fact, I still have the original broken pump. And much of the wiring and the circuit boards. When I get half a mo, I'll sit down and figure out roughly how it works - I assume that most of the machines will be similar at least in principle. > second one. As they store my collection and test gear, they > expect me to > fix things, I only have a Rainbow and a CUB monitor at myn parent's house - luckily they settle for a bit of reprogramming of the TV and Sat Receiver. > And if tVs were more expensive to replace (sau a new one cost \pounds > 500) then they would be prepared to pay for repairs. When TVs were more expensive (like in the 1970s) people did indeed pay for repairs. I just don't think that's a good reason for them to be more expensive. There are expensive TVs around today: if you want to you can pay maybe ?1500+ for a large widescreen one with all the trimmings. I'm not convinced that Horizon would look or sound much better but that's stingy old me :-) > Do you seriously think you should pay less than \pounds 25 per hour? No. But it makes no economic sense to pay say ?50 to fix a ?6 calculator. I happen to have a faulty Casio fx-83 and one with a shattered display (quite how my kids manage to achieve this I do not know). The innards are basically an LCD, a keypad and an IC covered in you-can't-see-me gunk. I'll use one as an LCD-donor for the other but that seems to be the limit of what I can do here. It's not even worth my time to try, but there's a decent magnifying lens right by the soldering station at work ... The fact that it is not worth fixing it is not a good justification for taking the price back up to the ?40-?50 I remember having to pay for a less well specified calculator when I were a lad ... (although if someone comes out with an indestructible one, my TCO calculations may well need tweaking ...) > That's what I charge for fixing HP calculators, and I have > been told that > I am massively underselling myself. Problem is, if I charged > any more, > even fewer people would pay for the repairs... I assume that you are not offering this service as a business ... otherwise you would be rapidly out of business. During my days as a freelancer I did odd bits on the side as the opportunity presented itself. I think I was charging about ?300/day ten years ago. Plumbers round here seem to advertise rates as low as ?40/hour. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 14:09:14 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <20687974.1086806148606.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <20687974.1086806148606.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40C7605A.80603@mdrconsult.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > hmmm, I thought there were four rows of 18 chips. That sounds like 8 banks of 256K which seems > like 2meg to me... unless I got something wrong No, I guess I got it wrong. I thought you meant 256K per chip, or 4MB per bank (16 * 256K plus 2 * 256K for parity). So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? IOW, if they turn out to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the Amiga A2091, will that be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? I'm a complete retard at memory components. It doesn't make sense to me at all, even after a fair amount of reading and some explanation from some Smart People. > as for board worth, the 256K chips are worth a bit. I found a site that had them for sale at $0.75 each. Well, that wouldn't suck. Of course that means they're really worth about $0.20/each. :) > If you need a PC to run it in, buy one on eBay... LOL (couldn't help that one) Heh. I'd rather stick my face in the mud.... [family joke] Doc From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 14:50:55 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board Message-ID: <9130396.1086810656623.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> the little guys are only 256K by 1, so it takes 9 of them to make a 256K byte bank. PC memory has always been spoken off by the byte. As for the Amiga, it will take 8 (or 9) to make each 256K byte upgrade. Of course, getting nit picky, 256K bytes could be thought of as a 2meg bit upgrade - it sounds impressive and it what a saleman would have said... LOL I can understand your need to stick your face in mud rather than buy a PC... :) best regards, Steve -----Original Message----- From: Doc Shipley Sent: Jun 9, 2004 3:09 PM To: Steve Thatcher , General@mdrconsult.com, Discussion@mdrconsult.com@null, On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts , null@null Subject: Re: Cheetah Cub board Steve Thatcher wrote: > hmmm, I thought there were four rows of 18 chips. That sounds like 8 banks of 256K which seems > like 2meg to me... unless I got something wrong No, I guess I got it wrong. I thought you meant 256K per chip, or 4MB per bank (16 * 256K plus 2 * 256K for parity). So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? IOW, if they turn out to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the Amiga A2091, will that be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? I'm a complete retard at memory components. It doesn't make sense to me at all, even after a fair amount of reading and some explanation from some Smart People. > as for board worth, the 256K chips are worth a bit. I found a site that had them for sale at $0.75 each. Well, that wouldn't suck. Of course that means they're really worth about $0.20/each. :) > If you need a PC to run it in, buy one on eBay... LOL (couldn't help that one) Heh. I'd rather stick my face in the mud.... [family joke] Doc From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 9 14:55:49 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7605A.80603@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: >> hmmm, I thought there were four rows of 18 chips. >> That sounds like 8 banks of 256K which seems >> like 2meg to me... unless I got something wrong > > No, I guess I got it wrong. I thought you meant 256K > per chip, or 4MB per bank (16 * 256K plus 2 * 256K for parity). > > So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? The _chips_ are 256K by 1 bit. You feed an 18 bit address into one chip and you get one data bit out. 9 chips form a bank with 8 data bits plus a parity bit. From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jun 9 14:59:19 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7605A.80603@mdrconsult.com> References: <20687974.1086806148606.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <20687974.1086806148606.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040609155134.03c6f8d8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Doc Shipley may have mentioned these words: >Steve Thatcher wrote: > >>hmmm, I thought there were four rows of 18 chips. That sounds like 8 >>banks of 256K which seems >>like 2meg to me... unless I got something wrong > > No, I guess I got it wrong. I thought you meant 256K per chip, or 4MB > per bank (16 * 256K plus 2 * 256K for parity). > > So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? Yes. ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=- They're 256K*bit* chips, so it takes 8 (or 9 if you use parity) chips to make 256K*byte*s of storage. So, just saying "256K" isn't quite enough information to enumerate exactly what's meant... > IOW, if they turn out to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the > Amiga A2091, will that be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? Neither -- 16 would give you a 0.5MegaByte upgrade. 8 would give you 0.25MB.[1] > Heh. I'd rather stick my face in the mud.... [family joke] My brain's *way* too frelled up right now to get into that... Vioxx & Beer -- *bad* combination. My Doc (not you, Doc ;-) says I gotta keep taking the Vioxx, so no beer. :-((~~ HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] I figured I shouldn't mention until later that the upgrade you mention would give you 256K*words* of memory, as the Amiga's a 16-bit machine... 4 bits = nybble, 8 bits = byte, CPU data width = word. (The last part is a bit simplistic, but...) -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From msabino205 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 05:25:06 2004 From: msabino205 at yahoo.com (Michael Sabino) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: OpenVMS Message-ID: <20040609102506.37692.qmail@web40714.mail.yahoo.com> Hello, I saw your posting to a newsgroup that you made about 1/2 year ago, and was wondering if you could give me the openvms media. I'm trying to get the media running on the x86 version of simh as an experiment, and need an iso image to install the media from. Is it possible that I can download the media from you? -- Michael S. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 9 17:46:22 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: LPS (Digital PrintServer) questions Message-ID: <0406092246.AA02778@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Hi everyone, In my search for what would be the best laser printer for me, I'm currently thinking about DEC LPS17, aka Digital PrintServer 17. A DEC dealer close to me is willing to sell me one for a reasonable price, and it seems like a really cool printer: just like the LPS40/20/32 monsters, but fits on a tabletop. Like all Digital PrintServers, it has a built-in VAX CPU running the PostScript interpreter. However, the firmware image for this VAX, containing the PS interpreter and everything else, does not reside in ROM but is instead down-line loaded on powerup over Ethernet, I presume via MOP. So it needs a MOP server on the network serving its firmware image. I can set up a MOP server, but I don't have the LPS firmware image. So here comes my first question to the list: does anyone have an LPS firmware image or is one publicly available on some archive site? DEC docs seem to imply that the firmware is the same for all LPS'es, is this true or not? I need an image that can run on LPS17 as that's the only LPS I can get. Second question. It is my understanding that once an LPS has booted its firmware, it becomes an independent node on the network accepting print jobs from anywhere on the network. Is this true or not? The protocols it speaks are DECnet and TCP/IP, right? If so, how does it obtain its DECnet and IP addresses? And if I want only one of the two, how do I configure it? Does it down-line load a configuration file from the MOP server along with the firmware image specifying DECnet and IP addresses? What is the format of this file? Third question. It is my understanding that the protocol spoken over TCP/IP is extremely simple: no LPR/LPD or anything like that, just a simple TCP port, you connect to it and everything sent to that TCP port goes to the PostScript interpreter's %stdin, and this port is 170. Is my understanding correct? If so, that's perfect, that's exactly what I want, I don't want it to do any spooling or other lpd-level intelligence, I want my 4.3BSD server to do all that, with a raw PostScript over Ethernet connection to the LPS. Fourth question. Is this PostScript-over-Ethernet connection on TCP port 170 binary clean, or is 0x04 (^D) interpreted as end of one PS job and beginning of the next? In other words, does my lpd on the 4.3BSD host driving it need to send a 0x04 between print jobs or should it close the TCP connection and reopen it instead? Fifth question. Is there any access control mechanism by which LPS firmware can be configured to accept connections only from certain sources, or will it always accept connections (and print jobs) from the entire Universe? TIA for any help, MS From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Jun 9 17:47:38 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <40C7938A.9080900@gifford.co.uk> Parker, Kevin wrote: > Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to Sydney, then > Los Angeles (to catch up with the daughter), then New York, onto > London, When in London, don't miss the Science Museum (Exhibition Rd., South Kensington). You should be able to see the Babbage Difference Engine replica, a Cray-1, an Apple I, the Pilot Ace and many other machines. The three places to look are the basement (Secret Life of the Home), the ground floor (Making the Modern World) and the Computing Gallery itself. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 9 17:54:29 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions Message-ID: <0406092254.AA02808@ivan.Harhan.ORG> As an alternative to DEC LPS, one other possibility I'm considering for a perfect PostScript printer would be an original Apple LaserWriter. But since I'm NULL in apples, I need some help. 1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever happened later and whatever they make now. 2. Were there any LaserWriters made with duplex printing capability? If so, what's the earliest duplex LaserWriter? 3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing but old enough to have a serial port? 4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? MS From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 9 18:02:43 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: Qbus hard disk controller" (Jun 8, 19:18) References: <002c01c44d83$f8521540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <40C64953.8C948FBE@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10406100002.ZM24777@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 8, 19:18, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jay West wrote: Jay, could you look at the ROMs on your RXDXen and see what the 23-xxx numbers are? > > I believe I have a few spare RQDX2's, but those dont do RD53 drives just > > RD52 I think? > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Controller Model Max RD5n Drive > ------------------ ------------------ > RQDX1 (M8639) RD51 > RQDX1 (M8639-YA) RD52 > RQDX3 (M8639-YB) RD53 > RQDX3 (M7555) RD54 - RD3n drives also allowed > > NOTES: > (1) RQDX1 must be the last board in the Qbus (i.e. ONLY one allowed) > (2) All RQDXn also allow the RX50 > (3) RQDX3 also allows the RX33 and RT-11 can FORMAT an RX33 media The difference between RQDX1 (M8639) and RQDX1 (M8639-YA) is just the ROMs, which were field-upgraded, so check the ROM numbers not the handle. Only the third version is -YA, which supports RD52. The first version has problems with RX50s. V.7.0 23-238E4 and 23-239E4 V.8.0 23-264E4 and 23-265E4 V.9.0 23-042E5 and 23-043E5 M8639-YB is not RQDX3, it's RQDX2. There were three versions of the ROMs for this, and only the last two supported RD53. The difference between M8639[-YA] and M8639-YB is a diode and some hackery in the top left corner; this too could be done in the field so don't rely on the handle number. The purpose was to eliminate the "must be last card in backplane" problem. V.9.4 23-172E5 and 23-173E5 V.10D 23-178E5 and 23-179E5 V.10E 23-188E5 and 23-189E5 The RQDX3 also had several versions of its "microcode", and the first doesn't directly support RD3x (it has other problems too). The first three or four have problems with anything bigger than an RD53. ??? 23-166E5 and 23-167E5 V.1.10 23-216E5 and 23-217E5 V.2.? 23-243E5 and 23-244E5 V.3.? 23-285E5 and 23-286E5 V.4 23-339E5 and 23-340E5 (RQDX3-F002 / EQ-01532-02) I'm not sure if the 23-166E5 and 23-167E5 really exist; I have every version of the RQDX3 ROMs except those, and the numbers may be a typographic error (as implied in one of the FCOs). Or else they were so bad they were replaced before or very quickly after the RQDX3 release. I also have the RQDX1/2 ROMs versions 7, 8, 9.0, 9.4, 10E, but not 10D. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 9 18:17:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Simulators & AppleII copy protected disks ? In-Reply-To: <200406090237.i592bMhc034537@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I have a friend who has recently retired an Apple IIe in favor of > running a simulator. He was able to use ADT and a serial card to > transfer most of his disk images over to the PC for use with the > simulation, however certain copy-protected games could not be > transferred. > > Does anyone know if there is software available to transfer Apple II > disk images on a raw-binary basis (ie: not necessarily well formed > sectors), and if so, are there any simulators which can make use of > such images? I don't know of any. It would be a cool feature, and not too difficult to implement. A cracker named Saltine made a very nice binary disk image program back in the day called SST (Saltine's Super Transfer...or something like that) which takes a binary image of a disk and makes a file of it that can then be compressed and transfered over modem lines (or in today's case the Internet). > I know this would be fairly complex, as the Apple could do half > tracks etc., and timing can be critical to many Apple copy protection > schemes. These factors would also have to be delt with somehow - is > there anything available which can do this? I'm not sure if SST did half- or quarter-tracks, but I'd bet that it did have options to check for those. The timing critical technique was called synchronization, whereby the alignment of sectors from one track to another was checked (a very simplistic description). When I ever get some free time again I'll take a look at the program and refresh myself with what its capabilities are. The next step would then be to write a disk drive emulator that can emulate the hardware of the Apple Disk ][ controller so that it can properly boot such disks. The other option is to find someone who can crack the software in question so that it can be put onto unprotected disks and then transferred to the PC to run under the emulator. I can make my services available to do that for a reasonable fee :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Wed Jun 9 18:21:27 2004 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: OS/2 - I have OS/2 2.1 for Windows on 3-1/2" In-Reply-To: <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> References: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike> <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040609191433.0d1469a8@pop-server> At 07:59 AM 6/9/2004, you wrote: >Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for all >of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? I have OS/2 2.1 for Windows on 3-1/2" disks with all manuals in original box. The diskette packages have never been opened. It's real heavy and you are welcome to it for $10 including media mail shipping to US addresses. Paypal or personal check >I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no >longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, >as long as the price was reasonable. > >Take Care, > >Mark > >"Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Website - http://www.retrobbs.org >Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org >BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 >IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main >WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki ================================= Gene Ehrich gehrich@tampabay.rr.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 9 18:54:51 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: <0406092254.AA02808@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from Michael Sokolov at "Jun 9, 4 03:54:29 pm" Message-ID: <200406092354.QAA08974@floodgap.com> > As an alternative to DEC LPS, one other possibility I'm considering for > a perfect PostScript printer would be an original Apple LaserWriter. > But since I'm NULL in apples, I need some help. I don't know about *all* LaserWriters, but I can talk about the ones I've had experience with. By the way, here's Apple's spec page on all their LWs: http://www.info.apple.com/support/applespec.legacy/laser.html It might fill in the gaps in my memory (I'm too lazy to check all of them ^_^). > 1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing > but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever > happened later and whatever they make now. No. There are some of the Personal LW and Select series that speak Apple's proprietary QuickDraw (like the irritating Select 300, a printer which I hardly like to speak the name of). However, the vast majority speak PS and pretty much only PS. > 2. Were there any LaserWriters made with duplex printing capability? If > so, what's the earliest duplex LaserWriter? The 12/640 PS, one of the last in the line, is duplex. I don't know about any others. My 16/600 (tip of the hat to Mike Ford) is not, and the 8500 (1997 -- last one?) is not. > 3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on > serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones > to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial > port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing > but old enough to have a serial port? I think they all have a mini-DIN-8, but not all are serial. The 8500 (1997), according to Apple's spec page, is LocalTalk but not necessarily serial. Some of the Select series are serial (the 310 will speak PS over a serial line, so maybe this is a good choice for you even though I despise this particular line from personal (mal)experience). > 4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple > proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? They are not DB25, they're Apple "standard" mini-DIN-8, and most of them are RS-422, I think. My 16/600 has a LocalTalk serial, Ethernet and Centronics-style parallel. I send it print jobs from a Mac IIci running NetBSD, netatalk (not -asun), and txt2ps. The servers connect to the IIci over TCP/IP and send it an ASCII print job, and it in turn spools it to the 16/600 over EtherTalk Phase 2. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- All science is either physics or stamp collecting. -- Ernest Rutherford ---- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:28:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <006b01c44e53$c1ac4080$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 9, 4 07:58:30 pm Message-ID: > > > Well, if the manual costs, say, \pounds 40, and you do, say,=20 > > 3 repairs=20 > > using cheap components, then it's saved you money... > > The stuff I have does not seem to break very often. Off-hand There is also the issue of preventive maintenance. Mechanical stuff does benefit from _correct_ lubrication from time to time, alignment needs to be checked, and so on. Doing that sort of thing without the manual is somewhat difficult (Oh, and don't assume the manufacturer got it right. Putting a catseye disk in _new_ 3.5" drives is quite an eye-opener !) > there's been this MP3 player that was dropped, a solar > powered garden light, a washing machine, a cassette player > and two TVs. The MP3 needed no manual (just glue!), the > light was trivial to trace (probably not worth the effort > since the fault was always going to be the LDR, but fun Oh, most of the itme it's the NiCds that fail in those lights (and you don't need a manual for that!) > nevertheless), no manual needed for the washing machine > (although I did buy that Haynes guide a while ago) and I have this ingrained objection to Haynes manuals, based on their car manuals, which are totally inferior to the real thing. Important stuff is missed out, some jobs are claimed to be impossible at home (hmmm, I'll decide what I can do, thank you), etc.... Decent washing machines (and dishwahsers) have at least a wiring diagram tucked inside somewhere. Often with a timer cycle chart if it's a mechanical timer. I don't think you need much more than that. > the TVs I could find schematics for in the RTSE Guide > (is that still going these days?). I'd be upset if > something broke three times :-) That depends on how long you intend to keep it for. I'd be upset if something failed 3 times in a year, but I'd expect to have to do rather more than 3 repairs in, say, 50 years. > > > I never=20 > > object to=20 > > buyunbg real service data. > > I'm not sure how you can tell, before buying, that the > manual is of any use (short of having previously seen Ask if the manual contains the circuit diagrams. If they won't tell you, get suspicious. If they tell you it does, and it turns out that it doesn't, then you most certainly can return it for a refund. > one). I expect sedning it back with "insufficient data, > please refund" won't work. I've seen Mauritron do a > bunch of CDs with manuals - not too expensive for a Mauritron used to be OK when they sold copies of manuals on paper. Since I object to manuals on CD (they are totally unusable on a workbench, and I am not spending 5 minutes per page to print the darn things [1]) I no longer deal with them [1] Most of that time is taken downloading the bitmap from the Mac to a Laserwriter over localtalk... > CD I guess but I have no idea what the manuals > themselves would be like. I may take a punt on a > CD if I ever need one ... FWIW, I've never seen a TV or VCR manaul without a full schematic, but I've not seen any really modern ones. > > > > Dunno. I'd want a CD player anyway :-) Maybe if I take > >=20 > > I'd want reel-to-reel :-) > > Why am I not surprised :-) Maybe you know that I put quality of construction and performance way above convenience of use :-) > without ever failing during my lifetime). I also > want to minimise the amount I spend on it. I=20 > don't see why I should pay more purely to justify > any future repairs on an economic basis. Same goes More expensive stuff tends to be better made, tends to work better, and is more pleasant to use. > > And if tVs were more expensive to replace (sau a new one cost \pounds=20 > > 500) then they would be prepared to pay for repairs. > > When TVs were more expensive (like in the 1970s) people > did indeed pay for repairs. I just don't think that's > a good reason for them to be more expensive. There are No, but modern stuff is so darn poorly made that I don't want to be anywhere near it. And the quality of pictures on most modern TVs is horrible (put a crosshatch generator on one sometime and look at the convergence errors). No thanks!. The quality of the programmes is a separate issue of course, and one that I can do nothing about. > > Do you seriously think you should pay less than \pounds 25 per hour?=20 > > No. But it makes no economic sense to pay say =A350 to > fix a =A36 calculator. I happen to have a faulty Casio That's why I specified _HP_ calculator (as if there's any other serious brand :-)). People will pay \pounds 25 for me to repair the card reader in their HP65 (worth a few hundred quid). Incidendtally, the fact that I do said repairs for money doesn't mean I won't help you fix your own HP calculator if you want to . The real reason that I charge is that otherwise I'd have millions of card reader rollers to repair, and quite honestly they get boring fast. Oh well... > fx-83 and one with a shattered display (quite how > my kids manage to achieve this I do not know). The > innards are basically an LCD, a keypad and an IC Now HP calculators -- real HP calculators -- are quite interesting inside. DIL packaged ICs, 2 phase clocks, serial buses between the CPU and memory, and so on. I've got a large pile of notes on the internals of just about every HP desktop and handheld calculator up to the 71B > > That's what I charge for fixing HP calculators, and I have=20 > > been told that=20 > > I am massively underselling myself. Problem is, if I charged=20 > > any more,=20 > > even fewer people would pay for the repairs... > > I assume that you are not offering this service as > a business ... otherwise you would be rapidly out of Correct. Do you think I've too cheap or too expensive? I assume the former. > business. During my days as a freelancer I did odd > bits on the side as the opportunity presented itself. > I think I was charging about =A3300/day ten years ago. > Plumbers round here seem to advertise rates as low > as =A340/hour.=20 Problem is, if I charged \pounds 100 per hour, nobody would pay it. So I have a choice of charging a sensible rate and getting no jobs coming in, or charging far to little and at least getting a few machines to repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:31:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7605A.80603@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 9, 4 02:09:14 pm Message-ID: > So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? IOW, if they turn out > to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the Amiga A2091, will that > be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? Most DRAM chips are 1 bit wide. A 256K DRAM stores 256K _bits_ (not bytes or words), arranged as 262144 locations of 1 bit each. 8 such chips store 256K btes, 256K locations of 8 bits each (bit 0 is stored in the locations of one of the chips, bit 1 in another chip, and so on). 9 chips were used to store a byte + a parity bit (very common on PCs) 16 of them, used conventionally (which I assume the A2091 does) would store 512K bytes or 256K 16-bit words. It would be a 0.5M upgrade I guess -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:33:04 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jun 9, 4 03:55:49 pm Message-ID: > > The _chips_ are 256K by 1 bit. You feed an 18 bit address into Confusing correction (for the real hardware hackers here). These DRAMs take the address in 2 halves of 9 bits each. You give the chip 9 bits of the address, then the other 9 bits, and finally read/write 1 bit of data. > one chip and you get one data bit out. 9 chips form a bank with > 8 data bits plus a parity bit. Correct -tony From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 9 18:44:31 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions Message-ID: >1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing >but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever >happened later and whatever they make now. No, some models spoke postscript, some spoke quickdraw. Many spoke postscript and other languages (like Diablo, ESC-P, PCL). In fact the original Laserwriter speaks both Postscript and Diablo 630. Apple has a listing of the printers they made, and what languages they spoke. >2. Were there any LaserWriters made with duplex printing capability? If >so, what's the earliest duplex LaserWriter? Yes, and I'm not sure what the earliest one was (I'm also not sure which models supported duplex. Probably the Pro series and the 12/600, 16/600, 8500 series... I know at least the 12/640 rates a duplex page speed, but I believe others besides it also had a duplex option) >3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on >serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones >to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial >port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing >but old enough to have a serial port? Actually, most of them up thru the end have serial. The problem is, the serial port doubles as the localtalk port, and it may or may not have been configurable for connection to a PC. As far as TRUE serial (RS-232/422 in the form of a DB25 or DE9), I think the Pro 810 may have been the last to carry that AND talk postscript. I don't know for sure if there is a duplex option for it or not. Later printers may very well also support PC serial via the Localtalk connector (which IIRC is really a RS422 with additional smarts to handle the localtalk protocol) >4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple >proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? Ones that had true serial were standard 232 and/or 422 ports in a DB25 package (there may also have been DE9 connectors, I don't remember for sure). So no adaptor should be needed. For those that handled serial via the mini din 8 connector's localtalk port, you would just need a mini-din 8 to D connector of your choice. Those should be 422 ports... but I can't say for sure that all of them were usable as regular serial. Some may have been localtalk only (and others may have done serial but weren't configurable, so you had to be able to know what it expected to have) Hope some of that is helpful. -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:41:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: <0406092254.AA02808@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 9, 4 03:54:29 pm Message-ID: > > As an alternative to DEC LPS, one other possibility I'm considering for > a perfect PostScript printer would be an original Apple LaserWriter. I would avoid the very first Laserwriter. It uses a CX engine, which is very solid and well made, but getting toner cartridges for it is non-trivial. I use an Laserwriter II NT (SX engine). I'll make a few comments on that below. > But since I'm NULL in apples, I need some help. > > 1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing > but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever > happened later and whatever they make now. The LW II NT has a DIablo 630 emulation mode (!), selected by DIP switches. It's fairly useless. Apart from that, all it understands is Postscript. > 3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on > serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones > to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial The LW II NT has a real RS232 port on a DB25 connector. It also has Localtalk on the standard 8 pin miniDIN (this is technically a serial port, but probably not what you meant). There is no parallel port. > port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing > but old enough to have a serial port? > > 4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple > proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? It is DB25, buit the pinout is a little odd (IIRC the ready signal is on pin 11, I can check the schematics if you end up with one). Wiring the cable took a few minutes. -tony From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Jun 9 18:52:38 2004 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Help with Lisa Needed References: <007101c44e3e$e8be9700$42406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <40C7A2C6.EB0F7C49@msm.umr.edu> no batteries = battery inputs to chip floating, or maybe high. dead batteries on board == probably inputs to relevent chips pulled low, maybe disableing powerup or proper behaviour. I had an AT clone that was very ill tempered when the 4 aa cells were dead connected to it. Removing the battery pack fixed it. "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Does anyone know for sure that if the 4 batteries on the Lisa motherboard > >are dead, if that will prevent it from powering up? This machine was working > >about 3 years back when it went into storage. Thanks for any tips. > > It shouldn't, I removed the batteries on mine. > > Zane > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 9 18:34:56 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Help with Lisa Needed In-Reply-To: References: <007101c44e3e$e8be9700$42406b43@66067007> <007101c44e3e$e8be9700$42406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040609193456.00904570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:51 AM 6/9/04 -0700, you wrote: >>Does anyone know for sure that if the 4 batteries on the Lisa motherboard >>are dead, if that will prevent it from powering up? This machine was working >>about 3 years back when it went into storage. Thanks for any tips. > >It shouldn't, I removed the batteries on mine. NiCads fail by shorting so old failed NiCads would have a different effect from no NiCads. The other thing that the owner needs to check for is if the batteies have leaked and damaged the board. BTW what are the NiCads on there for anyway? Joe > > Zane > > >-- >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 19:13:40 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C7A7B4.2010901@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? IOW, if they turn out >>to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the Amiga A2091, will that >>be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? > > > Most DRAM chips are 1 bit wide. A 256K DRAM stores 256K _bits_ (not bytes > or words), arranged as 262144 locations of 1 bit each. 8 such chips store > 256K btes, 256K locations of 8 bits each (bit 0 is stored in the > locations of one of the chips, bit 1 in another chip, and so on). 9 chips > were used to store a byte + a parity bit (very common on PCs) > > > 16 of them, used conventionally (which I assume the A2091 does) would > store 512K bytes or 256K 16-bit words. It would be a 0.5M upgrade I guess So I talked to the memory guy here, and he says that the MT part number is bogus. He says that there was a company doing counterfeits in the late 80s and these are some of them. Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte explanation helps a lot. I'm still confused about the multiplier. The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of 2MB, so does that mean that these chips are 256Kx1? Doc From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 9 19:22:44 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7A7B4.2010901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte > explanation helps a lot. I'm still confused about > the multiplier. > > The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of > 2MB, so does that mean that these chips are 256Kx1? Exactly! From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 9 19:39:44 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board Message-ID: <20249762.1086827985200.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> okay, 16 - 256kx1 chips will not give you 2meg... it is only 0.5meg. If the docs you have say 256kx4 then that is the chip you need and the ones on the ISA board are not the right ones. the 256Kx4 DYNAMIC ram chips that you would need were usually used in VGA cards for display memory. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink Sent: Jun 9, 2004 8:22 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Cheetah Cub board > Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte > explanation helps a lot. I'm still confused about > the multiplier. > > The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of > 2MB, so does that mean that these chips are 256Kx1? Exactly! From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 19:59:24 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <20249762.1086827985200.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <20249762.1086827985200.JavaMail.root@bert.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40C7B26C.7030302@mdrconsult.com> Steve Thatcher wrote: > okay, 16 - 256kx1 chips will not give you 2meg... it is only 0.5meg. If the docs you have say 256kx4 then that is the chip you need and the ones on the ISA board are not the right ones. > > the 256Kx4 DYNAMIC ram chips that you would need were usually used in VGA cards for display memory. Yes, I actually found the chips I need for the Amiga on a couple of busted MCA graphics boards. No ROMs on either, and one looks like somebody practiced their solder-sucking on it, so I'm not killing good kit for them. After physically looking at the A2091, I also found that it wants 20-pin DIPs, not 16-pin DIPs. :) This upgrade isn't really just a system RAM boost. The A2091 SCSI chip can't write to the GVP 32-bit RAM in that box, so it's doing programmed-I/O transfers. At roughly 80MB/hour, disk-to-disk. The on-board 16-bit memory will allow it to breathe. I hope. Thanks, Steve, Tony, Bill, Brian, Gene, and everybody for the tutorial. It helped a lot. Now, instead of being afraid to pick up the gun, I can go shoot off some toes. Doc From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 9 21:31:19 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 12:28:27PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > So, more relevant to me, is the board itself worth anything outside > the DRAMs? I have a friend doing a 68000 SBC project who could use > some, and I think some of the rest would look fabulous on my Amiga > 2000's A2091 board. So those DRAMS are 44256s? That's what the A2091 takes, 256Kx4. Speed is not a problem - 150ns is fast enough, but ISTR 120ns was more commonly available by the time 1Mbit chips were ordinary, and I think they were available as fast as 80ns in DIP packages. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Jun-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.5 F (-67.5 C) Windchill -129.5 F (-89.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 059 Barometer 665.8 mb (11168. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cfandt at netsync.net Wed Jun 9 21:37:49 2004 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Sandia and Los Alamos Auction In-Reply-To: <40C745A5.3000908@theriver.com> References: <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20040609221933.026d17a0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Aaachh!!! I'm REALLY glad I don't live anywhere NEAR that auction! My house would be SO full of "goodies" that it would collapse around me - and I'm not talking about just classic computer related stuff listed. Umm, well, it's creaking now with just the stuff I've already got. My wife asks why a couple of doors stick at the top now :-/ There are tons of high vacuum, laser, optical gear and other high-tech stuff listed in that auction that I know and miss using since I downsized from ACU-RITE Inc in '98. BTW, if anyone buys the ACU-RITE II digital readouts for their mill or lathe (lot # 164 & 172) I can give you a copy of the manual and even service the readout if needed. Need AR or Anilam Inc encoders to use these readouts. Just don't pay much more than ten or twelve bucks for both of them. I *think* I recall correctly that the Balzers QME064 is their partial pressure analyzer and if indeed it is I believe it has a DEC PDP-11/23 processor card, memory and a couple of custom cards specific to the application in a 4-slot bus. Been so long since I saw ours at AR that I can't quite recall. BTW, most controllers on Balzers brand thin film deposition equipment (electron beam and sputtering systems) use DEC hardware. Early ones used PDP-8's which are getting hard to find in that application while most other more recent systems use 11/23's and Falcons. Haven't checked what the newest systems use - hope its NOT wintel. -Chris F. NNNN Upon the date 10:15 AM 6/9/04 -0700, Tom Ponsford said something like: > Hi All > > Another Los Alamos, Sandia Auction this weekend. If you live within a > driving radius of Albuquerque, you should really check these out. > I unfortunatly cannot make it this weekend. :-( So someone else will > have to bid on the Sun Enterprise 450 : > >http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/pages/MVC-016S_JPG.htm > > > > There are also several Ultra 10's 5's and 2's > > As well as your SGI Octanes, O2's and an Impact 10000 > > Also a Digital RA90 Rack and a Vax 4000-400 and several MV II's > > Complete list: > > http://www.bentleysauction.com/misc/catalogs/nm061204.txt > > And this time they even have some pictures: > >http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/index.htm > > > > Having been to these auctions before. This stuff goes real cheap!! > > Have fun!! > > Cheers > Tom > > --- > > Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please > unread back to the beginning. > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 9 21:36:46 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: vintage computers and lead poisoning? In-Reply-To: <006b01c44e53$c1ac4080$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <006b01c44e53$c1ac4080$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20040610023646.GF3296@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 07:58:30PM +0100, Antonio Carlini wrote: > The stuff I have does not seem to break very often. Off-hand > there's been this MP3 player that was dropped... > The MP3 needed no manual (just glue!)... I've fixed two dropped Nomads (neither were mine, thankfully) this winter... Both seemed to have hit "earphone jack first" and torn loose the same three components - the jack itself, and two caps that are part of the filter chain coming out of the DAC. One had poor solder joints and just disloged components, the other tore the pads from the PCB. The fix was strictly mechanical and done by visual inspection, OTOH, I did have to repair 4 "8 and 8 rule" traces - I used a single strand of wire out of a chewed up IDE ribbon cable, after using superglue to put the pads back on the board. I've also fixed my own Rio PMP300 - cold solder joints attaching the chromed battery terminals to the main board. Nobody has brought an iPod to me to fix yet... after reading about battery and connector issues, I'm just waiting... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Jun-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.3 F (-67.4 C) Windchill -126.6 F (-88.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.6 kts Grid 061 Barometer 665.8 mb (11168. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 9 21:42:26 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:22 2005 Subject: Sandia and Los Alamos Auction In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20040609221933.026d17a0@pop3.norton.antivirus> from "Christian Fandt" at Jun 09, 2004 10:37:49 PM Message-ID: <200406100242.i5A2gQ03021487@onyx.spiritone.com> > > Aaachh!!! > > I'm REALLY glad I don't live anywhere NEAR that auction! My house would be > SO full of "goodies" that it would collapse around me - and I'm not talking > about just classic computer related stuff listed. Umm, well, it's creaking I know what you mean, I looked at the pic's and started drooling when I saw something I'd have no problem talking my wife into. Namely SGI widescreen LCD monitors, as she'd also like to have one for my O2 R12k/270 :^) Then there were the Mac's, the DEC HW, Sun HW (actually the least tempting of the tempting), and the rest of the SGI HW. Thankfully I'm a *LONG* ways away. Zane From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 9 21:50:02 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston References: <20040608154050.RGVJ18566.out011.verizon.net@outgoing.verizon.net><200406081815.OAA14171@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <0qd648skpk.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: <005401c44e95$a120ee00$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I would be willing to hold a few items for folks coming in for VCF E. I sent Fred an eMail but got no reply. I live 4 hours away but am willing to drive. Someone living closer could coordinate a group-swapmeet of sorts, I'd go. John A. From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 9 21:53:08 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. Message-ID: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> OK I'm not talking about the burger. But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. I can't throw them out, on conscience. John A. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 9 21:55:59 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <9130396.1086810656623.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <9130396.1086810656623.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040610025559.GH3296@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 03:50:55PM -0400, Steve Thatcher wrote: > As for the Amiga, it will take 8 (or 9) to make each 256K byte upgrade. It entirely depends on which memory expansion you have - I have a Spirit InBoard with 1.5MB of 41256s, a StarBoard with 2MB of 41256s, and at least one A2091 with 2MB of 4_4_256s, all of which are 8-bits-to-the-byte-no- parity. There are even two revs of the memory-bay-half-fast-RAM expansion for the A500 - one with 16 41256s, one with 4 44256s. There were a few boards, I think, which did offer a parity option, but IIRC it was really optional, not required, as in PCs of the era. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Jun-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90 F (-67.8 C) Windchill -131.8 F (-91 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11 kts Grid 061 Barometer 665.8 mb (11168. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 9 21:56:38 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Jun 09, 2004 10:53:08 PM Message-ID: <200406100256.i5A2udgJ021670@onyx.spiritone.com> > OK I'm not talking about the burger. > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > I can't throw them out, on conscience. > > John A. No, but I wouldn't mind hearing some good ideas that didn't involve turning them into an Aquarium. Though come to think of it, I do have a Mac SE case that I could do that with... Zane From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Jun 9 22:19:05 2004 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: There's a site somewhere on the web that's being run on a toaster. Don't remember where, but AFAIK it's still up. Network them and make a mini-super-computer. ;o) Jim (who knows where you're at. Have an SE30 that'll I'll probably own forever.) On Wednesday, Jun 9, 2004, at 19:53 US/Pacific, John Allain wrote: > OK I'm not talking about the burger. > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > I can't throw them out, on conscience. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 22:19:46 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <40C7D352.7020403@mdrconsult.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 12:28:27PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> So, more relevant to me, is the board itself worth anything outside >>the DRAMs? I have a friend doing a 68000 SBC project who could use >>some, and I think some of the rest would look fabulous on my Amiga >>2000's A2091 board. > > > So those DRAMS are 44256s? That's what the A2091 takes, 256Kx4. I figure you've read the thread by now, but here's the recap: The Cheetah board is 256Kx1 16-pin DIPs. The A2091 needs 20-pin 256Kx4 chips. I looked in my junk box and found a couple of PS/2 graphics boards with the ROMs missing and one burnt up. Each had 8 TI TMS44C256-12N DIPs, which are now running nicely on the A2091. As soon as I finish cooking and eating dinner, I'm gonna see if it juked up the abysmal disk I/O a little. The whole list ganged up to teach me some memory basics. :) Doc > > Speed is not a problem - 150ns is fast enough, but ISTR 120ns was > more commonly available by the time 1Mbit chips were ordinary, and > I think they were available as fast as 80ns in DIP packages. > > -ethan > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 9 22:37:27 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7D352.7020403@mdrconsult.com> References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> <40C7D352.7020403@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040610033727.GA21946@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 10:19:46PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > I looked in my junk box and found a couple of PS/2 graphics boards > with the ROMs missing and one burnt up. Each had 8 TI TMS44C256-12N > DIPs, which are now running nicely on the A2091. Perfect. > As soon as I finish cooking and eating dinner, I'm gonna see if it > juked up the abysmal disk I/O a little. I'm sure it will help loads. The A2091 isn't a screamer of a controller, but DMA to Zorro-II FAST RAM should be quite noticable. > The whole list ganged up to teach me some memory basics. :) So I saw. :-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Jun-2004 03:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.2 F (-67.9 C) Windchill -129.5 F (-89.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.6 kts Grid 062 Barometer 666.1 mb (11156 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 9 22:47:11 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: from "Jim Arnott" at Jun 09, 2004 08:19:05 PM Message-ID: <200406100347.i5A3lBVN022493@onyx.spiritone.com> > There's a site somewhere on the web that's being run on a toaster. > Don't remember where, but AFAIK it's still up. Well, they can handle low volume.... > Network them and make a mini-super-computer. ;o) Painful on so many levels... Mainly the cost of networking them,the power they'd use, and the time it would take... > Jim (who knows where you're at. Have an SE30 that'll I'll probably own > forever.) Ah, but the SE/30 is one of the greatest Mac's ever made! Add Ethernet to it, and use it as a small intelligent terminal. Though in this day and age an iMac would be better suited probably :^/ An SE/30 also makes a great word processor, or system for doing email. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 23:28:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7A7B4.2010901@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 9, 4 07:13:40 pm Message-ID: > Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte explanation helps > a lot. I'm still confused about the multiplier. > > The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of 2MB, so does that > mean that these chips are 256Kx1? 256*4 DRAMs are what the numbers imply. 256K (262144) locations of 4 bits (1 nybble) each. So 2 of _those_ chips store 256K bytes, 16 of them store 8*256K bytes == 2 Mbytes The 256K *1 and 256K *4 chips have totally different pinouts (in fact I think the former is a 16 pin chip, the latter a 20 pin chip), you certainly can't interchange them. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 9 12:13:37 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> <40C7D352.7020403@mdrconsult.com> <20040610033727.GA21946@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <002501c44e45$1a798ce0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:37 PM Subject: Re: Cheetah Cub board > On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 10:19:46PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I looked in my junk box and found a couple of PS/2 graphics boards > > with the ROMs missing and one burnt up. Each had 8 TI TMS44C256-12N > > DIPs, which are now running nicely on the A2091. > > Perfect. > > > As soon as I finish cooking and eating dinner, I'm gonna see if it > > juked up the abysmal disk I/O a little. > > I'm sure it will help loads. The A2091 isn't a screamer of a > controller, but DMA to Zorro-II FAST RAM should be quite noticable. > > > The whole list ganged up to teach me some memory basics. :) > > So I saw. :-) > > -ethan > I found 2MB worth of 256x4 DRAM for my 2091 and it made a huge difference in loading times compared to the same board and drive with no ram at all. Best place to find it is on old ISA/VLB video cards where it can be found socketed for easy removal (and can always be put back in the video card if needed). From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 10 02:48:24 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jun 2004 22:53:08 EDT." <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200406100748.IAA10771@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, "John Allain" said: > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > I can't throw them out, on conscience. Well, I use an SE as a terminal. Old Macs make neat little terminals. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 10 04:12:18 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <000701c44d8f$b2e9def0$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <000701c44d8f$b2e9def0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <48338.80.242.32.51.1086858738.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > MicroVAX 3100-30 is faster that a MicroVAX 3100-20 (or > did you mean VAXstation 3100-30)? They're all MicroVAXen. There was one VAXServer 3100 that Jules kept. > I'm sure that there would be takers on the netbsd > port-vax mailing list or the linux-vax mailing list. > Failing that, ebay is better than binning! I think they've all got homes now so that's good intit! > Do you have an accurate inventory? A list of > KA?? versions (the MicroVAX 3100-10/20e and > the MicroVAX 3100-10/20 post April 1992 [IIRC] > have ROMs that can cope with big(ger) SCSI > disks). I can do that with the ones I've got in spare time so watch this space. There's bound to be a couple of different revisions in amongst them all. > Given the recent discussions, you could > contribute a decent set of ROM images now :-) Heh; time to see if the ROM reader/burner we've got upstairs works! It looks like a parallel port job for a PC so I hope we've still got the software for it too...... -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 10 04:29:06 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <48338.80.242.32.51.1086858738.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> References: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <000701c44d8f$b2e9def0$5b01a8c0@athlon> <48338.80.242.32.51.1086858738.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <1086859746.14512.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 09:12, Witchy wrote: > > MicroVAX 3100-30 is faster that a MicroVAX 3100-20 (or > > Do you have an accurate inventory? A list of > > KA?? versions (the MicroVAX 3100-10/20e and > > the MicroVAX 3100-10/20 post April 1992 [IIRC] > > have ROMs that can cope with big(ger) SCSI > > disks). > > I can do that with the ones I've got in spare time so watch this space. > There's bound to be a couple of different revisions in amongst them all. I should be able to do that with the pile here too, if someone lets me know what I'm looking for. I'll borrow a console lead from Bletchley this weekend and then check to see how they all are next week sometime. > > Given the recent discussions, you could > > contribute a decent set of ROM images now :-) > > Heh; time to see if the ROM reader/burner we've got upstairs works! It > looks like a parallel port job for a PC so I hope we've still got the > software for it too...... I've got one set up here that'll read anything up to (and including) 256Kbit devices if that's less hassle. Again, just let me know what I'm looking for inside the machines! cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 10 05:18:22 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: LF: Cromemco System3 boot floppy & HD info. Message-ID: <200406101018.i5AAIMhc045972@huey.classiccmp.org> Mike K. and I are working on resurrecting a Cromemco System 3 This is a large S-100 rack-mount unit with dual 8" floppy drives and internal hard drive. Got it powered up yesterday, and all DC supplies appear normal. Managed to get it working to the point where it tries to boot from the A drive (floppy) - unfortunately we have no boot diskette. We able to get into the 'RDOS' ROM monitor for which we have no documentsion. Discovered the 'BA-BD' commands which try and boot: BA accesses the first 8" floppy, BB accesses the second 8" floppy. BC&BD just "hang". Also discovered an 'I' command (IPL?) which also hangs... We were not able to get any action from the hard drive - I don't know if it would be booted by 'BC', 'BD' or 'I' (or something else). I did note that the HD power was disconnected when we opened the box, so I do not know if the hard drive even works. Q1) Does anyone out there have a boot diskette for a Cromemco System 3? I'm pretty sure that if we had a boot diskette we could bring the system up. Q2) Can anyone tell be exactly what needs to be done to boot the hard drive? Are there any diagnostic procedures that we can use to confirm that the HD is operating? Any information or pointers to information on this system would be very much appreciated. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 05:30:35 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board Message-ID: <3054108.1086863435735.JavaMail.root@thecount.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Doc, you are welcome. Always take your shoes off though, so you won't ruin a good pair of shoes... best regards, Steve > Thanks, Steve, Tony, Bill, Brian, Gene, and everybody for the >tutorial. It helped a lot. Now, instead of being afraid to pick up the >gun, I can go shoot off some toes.. > > > Doc From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jun 10 05:41:42 2004 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer Message-ID: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net> Some time back on the vintage computer marketplace (http://marketplace.vintage.org/), somebody listed a "dumpkopf 1" computer, but only the most vague information was given about it. I think there was some speculation here that it was maybe a hoax, and that no information could be found about it on the internet. I accidentally stumbled upon the machine at this web site; I suspect that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html It looks to be very interesting, perhaps significant, but certainly inoperable. The web page has a number of very interesting pictures of the computer, and says that the tubes have a 1954 date stamp on them. There are some large patch panels on the machine, so perhaps it wasn't a general purpose programmable computer (in fact, the name implies the machine isn't all that smart!) From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 10 06:18:37 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <200406081745.SAA26534@citadel.metropolis.local> References: Your message of "Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:55:46 BST."<38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <200406081745.SAA26534@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <46023.80.242.32.51.1086866317.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Hi Stan, > > D*mn! Why is this sort of thing always so far away :-( Whereabouts are you? I'll be back Oop North on saturday for a week..... cheers -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From ikvsabre at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 06:21:17 2004 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: OS/2 In-Reply-To: <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> References: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike> <000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Message-ID: <200406100721170296.01EF4CD0@smtp.comcast.net> I've got OS/2 3.0 and 4.0, both legal w/ licenses. I've also got the manuals and several 3rd party books. E-mail me if you are still looking. Joe ikvsabre@comcast.net *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 6/9/2004 at 12:59 PM Mark Firestone wrote: >Does anyone have a copy of OS/2 (any version, but I'm really looking for >all >of them...) for my Virtual PC collection of antique operating systems? > >I'm not sure how folks here feel about the piracy of software that is no >longer available. I would, of course, be willing to pay for a legal copy, >as long as the price was reasonable. > >Take Care, > >Mark > >"Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." > >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Website - http://www.retrobbs.org >Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org >BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 >IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main >WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 10 06:59:58 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer References: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer > Some time back on the vintage computer marketplace > (http://marketplace.vintage.org/), somebody listed a "dumpkopf 1" > computer, but only the most vague information was given about it. I > think there was some speculation here that it was maybe a hoax, and that > no information could be found about it on the internet. > > I accidentally stumbled upon the machine at this web site; I suspect > that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html > > It looks to be very interesting, perhaps significant, but certainly > inoperable. The web page has a number of very interesting pictures of > the computer, and says that the tubes have a 1954 date stamp on them. > > There are some large patch panels on the machine, so perhaps it wasn't a > general purpose programmable computer (in fact, the name implies the > machine isn't all that smart!) same computer, same site.What's frustrating about the site is that the guy has some cool stuff but his pics are low-res and small. With larger pics someone on here would probably be able to figure out exactly what he was offering for sale. It's been quite a few months since the original posting and a lot of the stuff is still for sale which leads me to think the prices are ridiculous and the guy is a pack rat and just doesn't want to sell anything. The old broadcast items are pretty interesting. bm From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Jun 10 07:19:53 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston Message-ID: <040610081953.80a5@splab.cas.neu.edu> I live less than an hour from boston, I talked with Fred last night and unless somebody beats me to it, I will pick up everything from Fred. Joe Heck From jbmcb at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 07:45:39 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. References: <200406100748.IAA10771@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: Beowulf/Mosix cluster. ;) On a somewhat related note, is there a *nix that runs on old 68000 Macs? Minix runs without memory managers or FPU's (Seems to just need an ALU and a couple registers :) Was it ever ported to Mac? Couldn't google any info on it, maybe I'm just tired this morning... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Barr" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:48 AM Subject: Re: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. > Hi, > > > "John Allain" said: > > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > > I can't throw them out, on conscience. > > Well, I use an SE as a terminal. > Old Macs make neat little terminals. > > > > -- > Cheers, > Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com > > The future was never like this! > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jun 10 07:51:15 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:19:53 EDT." <040610081953.80a5@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <200406101251.i5ACpFW02701@mwave.heeltoe.com> trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: >I live less than an hour from boston, I talked with Fred last night and >unless somebody beats me to it, I will pick up everything from Fred. I live outside boston and have a big suburban assalt vehicle. If you want help, let me know. I'm always up for a rescue and would not mind one microvax... -brad From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 08:47:53 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: The Lear Siegler ADM3 story concludes..... Message-ID: They were there.......they weren't there.......they were there. After removing a rather large dumpster's volume of *stuff* (literally - should give you an idea of why we couldn't find them in the first place) from my father's storage shed we uncovered some of the little pale blue friends hiding in a back corner after all. There were not as many as we had originally thought (only 4) but they were there. 1 is already sold, 1 has a screen issue and I still need to test out the other 2. Anyway if you are local to Methuen MA and are interested let me know. I would prefer not to have to deal with shipping hassles unless I can't move them locally. I am thinking $10 for the unit with the screen prob and assuming the other 2 test out ok, $25 each for those. I also have a bunch of Visual Technology model 55 and 310 terminals if those are of any interest to anyone. Thanks for humoring me throughout this ordeal. From owad at applefritter.com Thu Jun 10 09:15:26 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040610141526.25737@mail.earthlink.net> On Thursday, June 10, 2004, Jason McBrien, wrote: >On a somewhat related note, is there a *nix that runs on old 68000 Macs? >Minix runs without memory managers or FPU's (Seems to just need an ALU and a >couple registers :) Was it ever ported to Mac? Couldn't google any info on >it, maybe I'm just tired this morning... Yes. MacMinix will run on a Mac Plus with 1 MB RAM and no hard drive. No networking support, though. Mac06 will run on a 68020 with 8 MB RAM. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 10 09:29:56 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub memory board For Sale or Trade Message-ID: <40C87064.6000303@mdrconsult.com> :-) Seriously, I have no use for the board and it looks to be in excellent shape. There's no point in letting it languish in a box for several more years. Specs again: ISA bus memory board Cheetah Int'l. Inc. "Cheetah Cub 2Mbyte Fast Memory" 4 banks of 18 256Kx1 socketed chips There is a set of DIP switches per bank, but there is no labeling and I have no docs. I've also never tested it and have no way to do so. For sale - Steve Thatcher says the memory chips are worth $0.75/each, and the baseboard probably sold for hundreds of dollars, so I figure $200USD. When you finish laughing, make me an offer. ;) For trade - GVP SIMM32 1MB or 4MB modules or 1Mx1 DRAM chips, or other ger for an Amiga 2000. If you have trade beads that are worth more than the Cheetah board, let me know. I'm not allergic to letting go some cash. Doc From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 11:31:42 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <200406100256.i5A2udgJ021670@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > OK I'm not talking about the burger. > > > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > > I can't throw them out, on conscience. > > > > John A. > > No, but I wouldn't mind hearing some good ideas that didn't involve turning > them into an Aquarium. Though come to think of it, I do have a Mac SE case > that I could do that with... They would make perfect automated bartenders. http://www.ecs.umass.edu/ece/sdp/sdp04/ganz/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 11:34:59 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer In-Reply-To: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > Some time back on the vintage computer marketplace > (http://marketplace.vintage.org/), somebody listed a "dumpkopf 1" > computer, but only the most vague information was given about it. I > think there was some speculation here that it was maybe a hoax, and that > no information could be found about it on the internet. > > I accidentally stumbled upon the machine at this web site; I suspect > that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html Yes, that is his website. > It looks to be very interesting, perhaps significant, but certainly > inoperable. The web page has a number of very interesting pictures of > the computer, and says that the tubes have a 1954 date stamp on them. > > There are some large patch panels on the machine, so perhaps it wasn't a > general purpose programmable computer (in fact, the name implies the > machine isn't all that smart!) Unfortunately, he was too smarmy to get any useful information out of. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jun 10 12:28:54 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: <40C7938A.9080900@gifford.co.uk> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <40C7938A.9080900@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On the subject of computers in museums, I heard the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry had a replica of the SSEM (Small Scale Experimental Machine, aka the "Manchester Baby" or "Manchester Mark 1"). Does anyone know if they're still displaying the replica machine as an exhibit? Do they actually show it running? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Only adults have problems with childproof caps. From hansp at citem.org Thu Jun 10 12:37:38 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Computer museums In-Reply-To: References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <40C7938A.9080900@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <40C89C62.3090703@citem.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: >On the subject of computers in museums, I heard the Manchester Museum of >Science and Industry had a replica of the SSEM (Small Scale Experimental >Machine, aka the "Manchester Baby" or "Manchester Mark 1"). Does anyone know >if they're still displaying the replica machine as an exhibit? Do they >actually show it running? > > Yes it is still there and it runs, demonstrations are done Tuesday afternoons at 12:00 and 14:00 by volunteers of the Computer Conservation Society. This from the latest issue of Resurrection, the bulletin of the CCS -- HansP From mross666 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 7 10:37:35 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Spectron Datascope Message-ID: Anyone by any chance got a manual for a Spectron D-586 datascope? I've (somehow) managed to kick the thing into 'menu mode' precisely *once*! TIA Mike http://www.corestore.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 10 14:13:13 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "RE: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK" (Jun 10, 10:12) References: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <000701c44d8f$b2e9def0$5b01a8c0@athlon> <48338.80.242.32.51.1086858738.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <10406102013.ZM25879@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 10:12, Witchy wrote: > > > Given the recent discussions, you could > > contribute a decent set of ROM images now :-) > > Heh; time to see if the ROM reader/burner we've got upstairs works! It > looks like a parallel port job for a PC so I hope we've still got the > software for it too...... :-) Be careful; ones I've seen that look like parallel port connecitons need a special card with the voltage regulators on them (I've got an ALL-02 like that). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 14:26:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks Message-ID: Why does everything have to be so difficult? I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out (and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also need to set up). None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not insane? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 03:00:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: Message-ID: <00d401c44ec0$eed79650$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Cc: "Bay Area Computer Collector List" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 3:26 PM Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks > > Why does everything have to be so difficult? > > I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum > event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga > 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, > plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into > the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out > (and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a > DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to > DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also > need to set up). > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > > Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not > insane? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/ this site will tell you just about anything you need to know about amiga hardware and pinouts. http://www.amiga-hardware.com/manuals/a520manual.lha is the link to download the manual for you A520 (rf modulator you were referring to) http://www.amiga-hardware.com/1080.html Shows the connection for the 1080 (there should be a switch on your unit to select which input to use). There are quite a few differences between monitor runs on the 1080/1084 commodore monitor along with different types of connections so you need the proper cables. If you don't have the correct cables, connecting both the 520st and the A500 to a color TV with RCA connections will do. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 10 15:18:42 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks Message-ID: <200406102018.i5AKIghc048620@huey.classiccmp.org> At 12:26 10/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >Why does everything have to be so difficult? > >I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum >event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga >1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, >plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into >the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out >(and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a >DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to >DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also >need to set up). > >None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > >Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not >insane? Hi Sellam, I have an Amiga 500 with a Commodore 1084 monitor. The cable I use is a DB-25 to DIN-6 (5 pins around the outside, one in the center) - this does give me color. IIRC, the RGB output on the A500 is the rightmost DB25 connector when viewed from the back, however, I'm pretty sure it's marked RGB or something like that. The Atari ST's use a honkin big circular connector - I recall it's something like 13 pins (3 rows of 4 plus 1) - Best thing for the Atari is to use an Atari SC124 (mono) or SC1224 (color) monitor. If you don't have one available, you can build an adapter for a mono display on most PC SVGA monitors (I build one before I found the monitors, and it does work). Some of my ST's have RCA connectors for RF out, which you can display on a TV (not nearly as nice). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 15:11:53 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <200406102018.i5AKIghc048620@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > IIRC, the RGB output on the A500 is the rightmost DB25 connector when > viewed from the back, however, I'm pretty sure it's marked RGB or > something like that. Yes, it is. It's a DB-23. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com Thu Jun 10 15:17:02 2004 From: patrick at vintagecomputermarketplace.com (Patrick Rigney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: <200406092354.QAA08974@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <008401c44f27$e4710ef0$f300a8c0@berkeley.evocative.com> > > 1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking > > nothing but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure > > about whatever happened later and whatever they make now. > > No. There are some of the Personal LW and Select series that > speak Apple's proprietary QuickDraw (like the irritating > Select 300, a printer which I hardly like to speak the name > of). However, the vast majority speak PS and pretty much only PS. I have and regularly use a LaserWriter Pro 630 that speaks fluent HP PCL in addition to PostScript. It has a selector switch on the back that lets you choose, for different combinations of the ports, which language is "native" on each port. So, for example, you can configure it so the Ethertalk port defaults to PostScript, but the Centronics port defaults to PCL. That's helpful for mixed PC/Mac environments. It also has separate LocalTalk and serial ports, and it uses the same engine and cartridge as the plain-vanilla LaserJet 4 (easy to get). --Patrick From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 15:30:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You know, everytime I have to setup a computer other than an Apple, I'm reminded of just how lame every other computer is. So I pull an Amiga 1000 off the shelf and proceed to set it up since I'm making no progress with the 500 and time is being lost. It still doesn't work with any of the video cables I have, but I was able to get a cable splitter to connect the composite output to the inputs on the back of the display. Now I have color. But, now I have no boot disk. The disk that booted on the 500 won't boot on the 1000. I have a Workbench v1.2 disk that works on the 500 and the 2000, but not the 1000. What a joke. You know, there's probably a really good reason why Commodore and Atari are gone but Apple is still around. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From sml49 at comcast.net Wed Jun 9 20:39:17 2004 From: sml49 at comcast.net (Seth Lewin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: <200406100114.i5A1EVhi043608@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On June 9 Michael Sokolov wrote: > 1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing > but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever > happened later and whatever they make now. > > 2. Were there any LaserWriters made with duplex printing capability? If > so, what's the earliest duplex LaserWriter? > > 3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on > serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones > to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial > port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing > but old enough to have a serial port? > > 4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple > proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? > 1. - The LaserWriter NTX supports Diablo 630 and also a limited version of a LaserJet emulator allowing use of Courier, Times, Helvetica in roman, bold, italic and bold italic; communication needs to be via the printer's RS 232 interface (DB-25) at 9600 baud to use the emulator. My 1988 Apple LaserWriter Reference text suggests checking the 1986 LaserJet reference for more info on this, though there's a fair bit on the subject in Apple's own book. 4. - The original LaserWriter had a 9-pin RS422. Later ones came with a mini-DIN 8 RS422 plus a DB25 RS 232c. These machines speak AppleTalk over their mini-DIN 8 ports when that function is selected by DIP switch positioning - in which case the DB25 serial port is disabled. In a later post someone suggested avoiding the CX-engined original LW in favor of the LWII with the SX engine, mostly b/o problems with obtaining toner - probably a wise suggestion. Plus the SX is indestructible - mine's been in service since 1989. Total cost of repairs over 15 years of light to moderate use: $26 for a new ozone filter. I'll be glad to scan any material from the LW reference anyone may want/need. Seth Lewin From squidster at techie.com Wed Jun 9 22:28:29 2004 From: squidster at techie.com (wai-sun chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Help to ID Unibus board Message-ID: <20040610032829.15ED4790036@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Hello list, I've recently acquired a PDP-11/04 which in its past life was the controller of a CNC precision drill/router (not the network kind) system. Inside which have 2 boards (Unibus of course) described as below: First clue: Upper left hand corner says it's from "Advanced Controls Corp.". A quick search points to http://www.acsmotion.com as they seem to be in the same field, industrial/machine controls. Alas, their tech support doesn't even have a clue as to what a Unibus is... Both boards appear to be the same model/type, but one is a earlier revision with a lot of reworks; i.e. jumpers and 2 smaller daughterboards, of which the later revision board doesn't have. Each board have 2 BERG-like male connectors (50-pin and 40-pin) which (guessing here) connects to the actual drill/router itself. The board is made out of SSI/MSI/LSI TTL ICs. The most complex/prominent are the two 12bit Analog Devices DACs from the DAC80 variety, both made in the late 80s: DAC #1 - ADDAC80N (24-pin) - CBI-V - 8802 DAC #2 - ADDAC80D (24-pin) - CBI-V - 8811 I guess these are for the X-Y positioning, but of course I may be WAY out here.. Board #1 - S/N 11926 (sticker) - P/N 18992-103R (scribbled on handle) On the upper left hand corner: - Advanced Controls Corp. - PCB Detail No. 17795 Rev. H - ASSY No. 18992 Rev. - Replaces 17750 Board #2 - S/N 0000005077 (sticker) - P/N 18992-102R (scribbled on handle) On the upper left hand corner: - Advanced Controls Corp. - PCB Detail No. 17795 Rev. D - ASSY No. 17750 Rev. If anybody can positive ID these boards, it'd be great! If anybody has the programming docs for these, it'll be even greater! :-) /wai-sun p.s. These boards seems to have last tested OK on Oct 28, 2002 (from a "tested" sticker)! -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From gtulloch at shaw.ca Thu Jun 10 09:29:57 2004 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (Gordon Tulloch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Simulators & AppleII copy protected disks ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C87065.5010404@shaw.ca> Hi there: The Apple II disk image archive is at: ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net Regards, Gord chris wrote: > I don't know about getting past the copy protection, but there is at > least one fairly vast archive of Apple II software available online. I > never remember the exact address, but it is something with asimov.net > (the A2 newsgroups usually make mention of it from time to time) From sieler at allegro.com Thu Jun 10 12:05:59 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: HP serial card In-Reply-To: <10406060116.ZM6266@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <40C83287.3211.28F032E5@localhost> Re: > brown-painted panel, labelled "RS-232-C", over a DB25S, on the other. > Part number 02670-60068. > > I've no idea what it's off, and no way to test it; yours for the price > of postage if you can use it. My guess is that it's for an HP 267x printer/printing-terminal, but I'm not sure. (No, I don't need one :) -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Jun 10 12:07:12 2004 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040610130428.02cba6d0@mail.n.ml.org> FISH TANKS! hehehe. Rochester Institute of Technology's Computer Science House (CSH) held a record for field stripping a mac and converting it to a working fish tank with a live fish in 20 minutes flat. Other uses: paper weight, door stop, x-mas gifts (replaces fruit cake), lawn ornaments and technology scarecrows to keep the managers away =) -John Boffemmyer IV At 10:53 PM 6/9/2004, you wrote: >OK I'm not talking about the burger. > >But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do >with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. >I can't throw them out, on conscience. > >John A. ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From cannings at earthlink.net Thu Jun 10 12:52:22 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Looking for Pittman's Tiny Basic References: <000801c44a8a$7b162e50$3e01a8c0@Sui> Message-ID: <000d01c44f13$b0c96ca0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Paul, For Tiny BASIC for the Heathkit ET(A)-3400, pertinent manuals; 595 - 2021 -06 Microprocessor Trainer Model ET- 3400 595 - 2070 -01 Memory I/O Accessory Model ETA- 3400 595 - 2070 -01 Software Reference Manual Model ETA- 3400 The Trainer Manual has the schematic, assembly and operations for the trainer. The Memory I/O has the schematic, hardware mods and operation for the two boxes. The Software Reference is the Holy Grail. It has everything you need to actually RUN the Tiny BASIC on the ET-3400. Without this book, you're screwed. You have to launch the Tiny BASIC from the Wintek Monitor program from an RS-232 terminal. You also get a memory map, plus some BASIC articles from Kilobaud. >From a Google search on "Heathkit Manuals" I was able to get most of the manuals for $5 each. Heathkit is still around (as an Educational Company only) but they still sell manuals. Good luck with your project ! Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Applegate" To: Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 4:20 PM Subject: Looking for Pittman's Tiny Basic Tom offered to send me a paper tape if I could read it. I asked on this list and got a lot of offers to help... thanks to everyone who wanted to help! Today I got email from Tom again. He moved several years ago, and just went to look for the tapes. The box labeled TINY BASIC had paper tapes, but not for Tiny. He's optimistic that he might still have the original tapes somewhere and he plans on looking for them. The only version he found so far has been for the 1802. In the mean time, if anyone on the list has any version of Tom's TB, he might appreciate getting copies, even if it's just the binaries. I'm desperately seeking the 6502 version, so hopefully someone can get a copy to Tom. He must have sold quite a few copies, considering they were originally $5 each ($5 for software? Amazing!). Hopefully someone has some old copies laying around. Bob From sieler at allegro.com Thu Jun 10 12:54:58 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: Sandia and Los Alamos Auction In-Reply-To: <40C745A5.3000908@theriver.com> References: <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> Message-ID: <40C83E02.26329.291D0C2C@localhost> Re: > http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/pages/MVC-016S_JPG.htm Has anyone succeeded in bidding/buying from a Bentleys auction from a distance? I called them, and couldn't quite communicate with their front office staff. They said, repeatedly, that they'd package up anything I won, but that I'd have to arrange for pickup. I couldn't get across to them that I wanted *them* to drop the package in the mail/UPS/whatever. It seems like they're willing to do 90% of what's necessary for off-site buyers, but.....?? Alternatively, is anyone going to the sale this weekend? :) (I'm interested in a couple of laptop size items.) thanks, Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From Watzman at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 13:45:59 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive Message-ID: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Ok, now you have to promise not to laugh too hard. Does anyone know if it's possible to make a USB Floppy Disk Drive. Oh, ...... I mean a 320k/360k 5.25" USB floppy disk drive. [hey, you promised .....] I occasionally need to transfer things between my PC and an old S-100 system, or a Z-100. The Z-100 has 5.25" disks, but not 3.5". So ..... I actually wondered if one could buy a USB 3.5" floppy and use the "controller card" with a 5.25" drive, since the interface is nominally the same. However, these mostly use notebook drives, and while they may have the same electrical interface, the physical interface is a flex cable. Worse, some of the USB 3.5" drives may "integrate" the USB controller and drive mechanism so that there is no standard floppy interface at all. There may also be software issues. Anyway, it seems like a question to post to this group, and in a few other places. [Next I will want a USB 8" drive ..... which, actually, with the right software, would not be a bad idea !!] From hinkamp at wpb.nuwc.navy.mil Thu Jun 10 14:45:03 2004 From: hinkamp at wpb.nuwc.navy.mil (Hinkamp John J (Johnny) CONT AIBS) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: RX50 Message-ID: Hi Thom, Do you have any RX50 floppy disks? John /------------------------------------------------------\ | Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Center (AUTEC) | +------------------------------------------------------+ | John James Hinkamp Hinkamp@wpb.nuwc.navy.mil | | AUTEC Software Engineer 561-655-5155 x4325 (work) | | Andros Island, Bahamas 561-655-5155 x5690 (home) | +------------------------------------------------------+ From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Thu Jun 10 15:49:29 2004 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:23 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com > References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> At 02:45 PM 6/10/2004, you wrote: >Ok, now you have to promise not to laugh too hard. >Does anyone know if it's possible to make a USB Floppy Disk Drive. >Oh, ...... I mean a 320k/360k 5.25" USB floppy disk drive. I have been asking that question for a long time. I would love to have the USB Connected 5-1/4" drive that would really work and be able to read both high and low density disks from the past. I would be willing to pay $150 for it. From deano at rattie.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 15:54:45 2004 From: deano at rattie.demon.co.uk (Deano Calver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >You know, everytime I have to setup a computer other than an Apple, I'm >reminded of just how lame every other computer is. > >So I pull an Amiga 1000 off the shelf and proceed to set it up since I'm >making no progress with the 500 and time is being lost. It still doesn't >work with any of the video cables I have, but I was able to get a cable >splitter to connect the composite output to the inputs on the back of the >display. Now I have color. But, now I have no boot disk. The disk that >booted on the 500 won't boot on the 1000. I have a Workbench v1.2 disk >that works on the 500 and the 2000, but not the 1000. What a joke. > >You know, there's probably a really good reason why Commodore and Atari >are gone but Apple is still around. > > > Your using an Amiga 1000. Its doesn't have its boot software (called Kickstart) in ROM like every Amiga, so you need a Kickstart disk. I originally typed boot firmware but then realised that made no sense in this case :-) Amiga 1000 also has a different chipset that misses a few graphics modes. Deano From nerdware at ctgonline.org Thu Jun 10 15:59:03 2004 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C88547.20737.18BAB50@localhost> On 10 Jun 2004 at 13:30, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > You know, everytime I have to setup a computer other than an Apple, I'm > reminded of just how lame every other computer is. > Now, now -- the Amiga rocked. It had technology that Apple couldn't touch at the time, like multiple windows, each with their own resolution and bit depth, all onscreen at the same time. > So I pull an Amiga 1000 off the shelf and proceed to set it up since I'm > making no progress with the 500 and time is being lost. It still doesn't > work with any of the video cables I have, but I was able to get a cable > splitter to connect the composite output to the inputs on the back of the > display. Now I have color. But, now I have no boot disk. The disk that > booted on the 500 won't boot on the 1000. I have a Workbench v1.2 disk > that works on the 500 and the 2000, but not the 1000. What a joke. > The 500 and 2000 had Kickstart in ROM (Kickstart is the actual hardward bootstrap code that loads before Workbench loads.) The 1000 didn't have Kickstart ROM's -- there should be a separate Kickstart disk that boots first. > You know, there's probably a really good reason why Commodore and Atari > are gone but Apple is still around. Two words: Jack Tramiel. Well, Tramiel and incredibly incompetent marketing. By the way, did you get the package? Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware@ctgonline.org "If you can make it all the way through Warren Zevon's 'The Wind' without crying, you have no soul. "At Microsoft, Quality is Job, oh, I dunno, maybe 6 or 7?" From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 10 16:02:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> Message-ID: <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 20:49, Gene Ehrich wrote: > At 02:45 PM 6/10/2004, you wrote: > >Ok, now you have to promise not to laugh too hard. > >Does anyone know if it's possible to make a USB Floppy Disk Drive. > >Oh, ...... I mean a 320k/360k 5.25" USB floppy disk drive. > > I have been asking that question for a long time. I would love to > have the USB Connected 5-1/4" drive that would really work > and be able to read both high and low density disks from the past. > > I would be willing to pay $150 for it. One thing I'd like is an inexpensive PC device to talk to a floppy drive directly and then be able to do all the necessary processing in software. Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly swapped between machines. cheers Jules From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 10 16:09:24 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. References: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <6.1.0.6.2.20040610130428.02cba6d0@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <005e01c44f2f$35acf0c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > FISH TANK, paper weight, door stop, x-mas gifts (replaces fruit cake), > lawn ornaments It's beginning to look like this complete MC68000 system, with graphics and sound, is perfectly at home in the Goodwill next to the $2.00 toaster, offered at a similar price. Now that just seems wierd, but I'm learning to accept it. John A. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 16:07:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Deano Calver wrote: > Your using an Amiga 1000. Its doesn't have its boot software (called > Kickstart) in ROM like every Amiga, so you need a Kickstart disk. I > originally typed boot firmware but then realised that made no sense in > this case :-) > > Amiga 1000 also has a different chipset that misses a few graphics modes. So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by giving the stripped down model a higher model number? They certainly were insane, weren't they? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From nerdware at ctgonline.org Thu Jun 10 16:17:43 2004 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <40C889A7.7442.19CBF57@localhost> On 10 Jun 2004 at 14:07, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? > > They certainly were insane, weren't they? > Actually, the A1000 was the very first Amiga. It was followed by the A2000 - full-featured with a full case, and the A500, the entry level machine. So, they added functionality later with the 2000. Not sure about the 500's nomenclature, but the A1000 was the first in line. It wasn't a "stripped down" model. Well, it shipped with 256k of ram, but you could add ram through the front hatch..... Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware@ctgonline.org "Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon "At Microsoft, Quality is Job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?" From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 16:17:56 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. References: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06><6.1.0.6.2.20040610130428.02cba6d0@mail.n.ml.org> <005e01c44f2f$35acf0c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > It's beginning to look like this complete MC68000 system, with graphics > and sound, is perfectly at home in the Goodwill next to the $2.00 toaster, > offered at a similar price. None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. From nerdware at ctgonline.org Thu Jun 10 16:23:08 2004 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <40C88AEC.19459.1A1B7AD@localhost> > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Deano Calver wrote: > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? > One other thing the Amiga featured from Day One was multitasking, even on the base 256k model. Apple didn't offer that until way later. Plus, the built-in sound chips were way beyond anything Apple was offering at the time. Remembering reading a cool article back in the day -- Microsoft had a press conference about something, and Gates was spouting off about multitasking. He said that there was no way to multitask in anything under 8mb of ram. A reporter in the back raised his hand and asked if Bill was aware that his own AmigaBasic would multitask on a 256k Amiga 1000..... Gates pretended he didn't hear and moved to the next question. Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware@ctgonline.org "Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon "At Microsoft, Quality is Job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?" From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 10 16:23:40 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <007c01c44f31$342135c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Every external drive type I've seen up to now has had unintegrated electronics, that is, it can be separated into a stock internal drive with PSU and comms add-ons. (100%) It's a pretty good bet (but<100%) that a random USB 3.5" will be the same. John A. like the subject line says: do it. From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Jun 10 16:17:21 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1304.65.123.179.139.1086902241.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Sellam, The A1000 had that kickstart image on flyppy because it was rushed to market, and the BIOS core wasn't compeletely finished. IT was decided to do this, and send floppy disks with the updates as they became available. The A1000 only worked with the Kickstart/Workbench 1.x until the ROM chips were made standard with the later machines. Some hackers have put in a 512k WOM and loaded in a 2.04 image off of floppy, or just made a board with a socket and a ROM. The phono connector should have been in color on the A1000, only it and the AGA Amigas had composite video ouput with NTSC color encoding. The A500/2000/3000 had a jack but only in monochrome, no color information at all. Another great bugaboo was the serial and parallel ports on the A1000 were opposite sex to the PC standard. This was fixed on later models. The Amiga was just enough different to be a pain in the butt to the normal PC thinking technician, and that helped Commodore loose the market. Lack of vendor support was another burr in the saddle. AT first ahead of the technology curve, they slipped behind in the 90's and management milked Commodore of its operationg capital. But once you learn some of the quirks and traits of the Amiga OS, you find a great system for the learning challenged. There is a reason they called the kernal Intuition. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO > > You know, everytime I have to setup a computer other than an Apple, I'm > reminded of just how lame every other computer is. > > So I pull an Amiga 1000 off the shelf and proceed to set it up since I'm > making no progress with the 500 and time is being lost. It still doesn't > work with any of the video cables I have, but I was able to get a cable > splitter to connect the composite output to the inputs on the back of the > display. Now I have color. But, now I have no boot disk. The disk that > booted on the 500 won't boot on the 1000. I have a Workbench v1.2 disk > that works on the 500 and the 2000, but not the 1000. What a joke. > > You know, there's probably a really good reason why Commodore and Atari > are gone but Apple is still around. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jun 10 16:25:42 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Your using an Amiga 1000. Its doesn't have its boot software (called > > Kickstart) in ROM like every Amiga, so you need a Kickstart disk. I > > originally typed boot firmware but then realised that made no sense in > > this case :-) > > > > Amiga 1000 also has a different chipset that misses a few graphics modes. > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? > > They certainly were insane, weren't they? Well, sort of the same.. (hmmm... not really but anyway...) Ohio Scientific C4P: Full 8K BASIC in ROM Power it up, start typing in a prog or load one from cassette. Ohio Scientific C4P-MF (mini-Floppy, cost much more): Surely, it's just a C4P with the addition of a floppy controller and drive? No (and stop calling me Shirley). The C4P-MF has a substantially different CPU board with NO 8K BASIC in ROM. Only a bootstrap in a 1K ROM. Find a C4P-MF? Nice doorstop unless you can get boot disks. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 10 16:36:24 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406101436.24211.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Sellam, You're probably talking to a lot of folks who have a several Amigas (like myself) and love 'em. Just because you not familiar with them doesn't automatically make them "a joke". Remember, they were doing graphics in the '80s in a manner similar to SGI while costing a fraction of the price - in many ways, way ahead of their time. Amigas supported NTSC, PAL and several "VGA" modes - including their monitors - which non-Amiga systems and monitors of the time couldn't begin to support (other than SGI). And if you think Amigas are a pain to setup, try an equivalent SGI box ;-) I would have been glad to help you setup the Amiga's if I had known about this in advance - as it is, I'm pretty much booked until this evening's CHM mtg. Give me a call if you are still "stuck" and I'll try to help. Lyle On Thursday 10 June 2004 13:30, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > You know, everytime I have to setup a computer other than an Apple, I'm > reminded of just how lame every other computer is. > > So I pull an Amiga 1000 off the shelf and proceed to set it up since I'm > making no progress with the 500 and time is being lost. It still doesn't > work with any of the video cables I have, but I was able to get a cable > splitter to connect the composite output to the inputs on the back of the > display. Now I have color. But, now I have no boot disk. The disk that > booted on the 500 won't boot on the 1000. I have a Workbench v1.2 disk > that works on the 500 and the 2000, but not the 1000. What a joke. > > You know, there's probably a really good reason why Commodore and Atari > are gone but Apple is still around. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 10 16:40:17 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: RX50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406101440.17496.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Suggestion: If you have standard 5.25" Diskettes and a PC w/an "AT" type diskette drive, you can use "PUTR" to created formatted RX50 diskettes. PUTR can be found at: http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/ Lyle On Thursday 10 June 2004 12:45, Hinkamp John J (Johnny) CONT AIBS wrote: > Hi Thom, > > Do you have any RX50 floppy disks? > > John > > /------------------------------------------------------\ > > | Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Center (AUTEC) | > > +------------------------------------------------------+ > > | John James Hinkamp Hinkamp@wpb.nuwc.navy.mil > | | AUTEC Software Engineer > | 561-655-5155 x4325 (work) | > | Andros Island, Bahamas 561-655-5155 x5690 (home) | > > +------------------------------------------------------+ -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From deano at rattie.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 16:47:56 2004 From: deano at rattie.demon.co.uk (Deano Calver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C8D70C.6000905@rattie.demon.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by >giving the stripped down model a higher model number? > >They certainly were insane, weren't they? > > > Yep always thought is weird they started at A1000 even though it only had 256K... A1000 is the black sheep of the family (and thats saying something given the weird family that is Amiga) The fact its missing several graphics modes is because when they adapted the chipset to work with PAL systems they 'noticed' that that had enough room in the chip to extend its 32 colour mode to 64 colour mode by reusing the 32 colours shifted right once. So every post A1000 Amiga has 'Extra Halfbrite mode' with a 6 bit plane graphics mode but only a 32 entry CLUT. The top 32 colours are simple the palette colours divided by 2. It expansion connection is pin compatible with a A500 but not physically compatible, at least without a hack saw and as somebody else mentioned its parellel and serial ports are the other sex from all other Amiga's and PC. But as a games programmer, the Amiga's were an amazing machine, to this day many PC graphics card blitter are less configurable than the Amiga's... Bye, Deano From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 16:55:18 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly > swapped between machines. MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of other models. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 17:00:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040610145746.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Amiga 1000 also has a different chipset that misses a few graphics modes. > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? NO!!! The 1000 was the "first" mass marketed Amiga. So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by giving the later model a lower model number The Ford model A came after the model T > They certainly were insane, weren't they? Absolutely! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 10 17:06:09 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1086905169.14884.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 21:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the > > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the > > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a > > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly > > swapped between machines. > > MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port > floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of > other models. Good point. I don't know how much work is done in the interface for those though - quite possibly a microcontroller + some buffer memory. I also remember taking one of their parallel CDROM units apart a few years ago and they'd put black gloop on everything so that reverse engineering was impossible - shame, as I never did get it working with Linux on an old laptop and might have done so if I knew what it was doing... I'm not sure what sort of data rate can be shifted through a parallel port on a reasonably modern PC, so I don't know if it's even possible to do the whole lot in software. Would be nice though. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 17:09:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040610150609.E83507@newshell.lmi.net> Sellam, I sold off my A1000, with almost all of the peripherals at VCF/Moffet. But I think that I still have the gen-lock for it if you're interested. Let me know, and I can pull it aside when I dig out this years VCF boxes. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? > > They certainly were insane, weren't they? > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 10 17:15:48 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: <20040610145746.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16584.56724.156216.348448@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: Fred> So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying Fred> convention by giving the later model a lower model number Fred> The Ford model A came after the model T And the 11/730 came after the 11/750 which came after the 11/780. The 11/05 came after the 11/20, and the 11/04 came later than that... paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 17:21:23 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040610150609.E83507@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040610150609.E83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040610152038.E83507@newshell.lmi.net> Sorry intended to go private On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Sellam, > I sold off my A1000, with almost all of the peripherals at VCF/Moffet. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 10 17:21:30 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <1086859746.14512.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <004501c44f39$47aa9bb0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I've got one set up here that'll read anything up to (and > including) 256Kbit devices if that's less hassle. Again, just > let me know what I'm looking for inside the machines! OK. I assume you know how to hook up a terminal and watch it boot and report its cpu type (e.g. KA42) and its firmware version number. I've just checked and I already have these: KA42-B-V015-23-088E8-00.HEX KA42-B-V015-23-089E8-00.HEX KA43-A-V012-23-134E8-00.HEX KA43-A-V012-23-135E8-00.HEX KA650-B-V053-23-194E7-00.HEX KA650-B-V053-23-195E7-00.HEX KA655-A-V053-23-015E8-00.HEX VS40X-VXXX-23-199E7-00.HEX WS01-V013-23-115E8-00.HEX The naming convention should be obvious: the first one is: a KA42-B, firmware version V015 (displays as V1.5) part number 23-088E8-00 (should be a sticker on the EPROM) Where a machine has two or more EPROMs the part number should distinguish which is which. The last two are a GPX and an SPX graphics card. I do have other machines around that I could (eventually) check and probably read the EPROMs (once I check out the programmer - or image them in the office). So who is going to be the repository holder? Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 10 17:50:04 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: HP serial card In-Reply-To: "Stan Sieler" "Re: HP serial card" (Jun 10, 10:05) References: <40C83287.3211.28F032E5@localhost> Message-ID: <10406102350.ZM479@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 10:05, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > brown-painted panel, labelled "RS-232-C", over a DB25S, on the other. > > Part number 02670-60068. > > > > I've no idea what it's off, and no way to test it; yours for the price > > of postage if you can use it. > > My guess is that it's for an HP 267x printer/printing-terminal, > but I'm not sure. (No, I don't need one :) Thanks :-) Well, I certainly don't need it, so if not claimed by Monday night, it will be used to enrich the local environment (Tuesday is bin day). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 10 17:53:05 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive In-Reply-To: "Barry Watzman" "USB 5.25" floppy drive" (Jun 10, 14:45) References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <10406102353.ZM821@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 14:45, Barry Watzman wrote: > [Next I will want a USB 8" drive ..... which, actually, with the right > software, would not be a bad idea !!] Ah, but could it (or even a 5.25" one) do single density? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 10 18:02:14 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: "Antonio Carlini" "RE: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK" (Jun 10, 23:21) References: <004501c44f39$47aa9bb0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <10406110002.ZM1555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 23:21, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I've just checked and I already have these: > [list of EPROMs] > I do have other machines around that I could > (eventually) check and probably read the EPROMs > (once I check out the programmer - or image > them in the office). > > So who is going to be the repository holder? How about adding them to mine, at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Jun 10 18:11:48 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks Message-ID: > Why does everything have to be so difficult? [1] To stop you from getting bored. > I've got an Amiga 1080 high resolution color monitor. ... I've got > an Amiga RF Modulator ... Then I have several video cables. > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. Video out on the modulator to Chroma in on the monitor, mono video out on the Amiga to Video in on the monitor. > Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not > insane? Yes, see [1]. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 18:05:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 10, 4 12:26:56 pm Message-ID: > > > Why does everything have to be so difficult? > > I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum > event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga What is the correct name for the 23 pin D connector? It's slightly smaller than a B shell. I've seen it called the DG23 (and DF19 for the 19 pin connector on the Atari ST DMA port), but I don't know how official they are. > 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, > plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into > the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out > (and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a > DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to How many pins on the DIN plugs? > DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also > need to set up). > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. _NOW_ do you know why I like to have schemaitcs to everything :-). If I had more specs on what the signals actually were (RGB can mean just about anything), it would be easy to make up the right cable. In fact I could probably do it in less time than it takes to send this message. IIRC, the 520 modulator has a composite colour output (luminance and chromanace in the same signal, like a baseband TV signal). Commodore monitors often had separate luma and chroma inputs (a bit like the S-video connector, but on separate RCA phono sockets). If you connect the 5230's output to the lumanace ('video') socket on a commodore monitor, you get a monochrome picture. In any case, assuming the RGB signals are compatible (I assume the Amiaga outpus analogue RGB at TV rates), you'd get a better picture using them. It should just be a matter of matching up the signals on the 2 connectors. I've long since given up trying to find the right cable for things like this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it with whatever device it goes with... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 10 17:54:11 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: from "Seth Lewin" at Jun 9, 4 09:39:17 pm Message-ID: > > In a later post someone suggested avoiding the CX-engined original LW in > favor of the LWII with the SX engine, mostly b/o problems with obtaining > toner - probably a wise suggestion. Plus the SX is indestructible - mine's Actually, the CX engine is even more solid than the SX (I have a CX-VDO printer on my PERQ [1]). It's also easier to repair in some ways -- it's less modular (the SX comes apart into modules in about 10 minutes), but small parts on the CX tend to be easier to replace. > been in service since 1989. Total cost of repairs over 15 years of light to > moderate use: $26 for a new ozone filter. I have an SX printer (actually an Apple Laserwriter II NT) on this PC. I've used it _a lot_ (I printed all the versions of my Ph.D. thesis on it, the master copies of the HP48 I2C manual, etc, etc, etc). I've been using it solidly for getting on for 10 years. In that time all it's needed was a new pickup roller and pad (and it wasn't new when I got it!). -tony From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 18:26:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Damien Cymbal wrote: > > It's beginning to look like this complete MC68000 system, with graphics > > and sound, is perfectly at home in the Goodwill next to the $2.00 toaster, > > offered at a similar price. > > None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts > will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys > me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. The problem is that they now have to pay to get rid of anything that doesn't work or is simply not saleable. Blame it on the environment :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Thu Jun 10 18:31:56 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. Message-ID: >None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts >will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys >me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. The one near me had the same policy. They would refuse them, and if they were left when the place was closed, they would chuck the CPU in the dumpster and sell whatever parts and software was left. Alas, the place is now closed, so I can't dive there any more (the building owner felt a Salvation Army store wasn't the right type of "image" for the shopping district it was in... humm... I guess it stood out to much against the gas station, car dealership, porn movie rental place/subway sandwich shop (yes, both in one store... get your porn and a snack at the same time), Hooters and swamp land. Go figure. -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 18:35:08 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040610162812.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > What is the correct name for the 23 pin D connector? It's slightly > smaller than a B shell. I've seen it called the DG23 (and DF19 for the 19 > pin connector on the Atari ST DMA port), but I don't know how official > they are. > . . . > I've long since given up trying to find the right cable for things like > this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it > with whatever device it goes with... But, do you have a source for the Dsomething-23 connector for making that cable? In 1986?, when I got my A1000, I cut one end of the shell away on the male connectors, so that a DB25 could hang over the end. (a somewhat less than satisfactory solution, that also reduces the resale value) On the external drive, the logo was misinstalled upside down (AT THE FACTORY) - would that raise the value? (like on a postage stamp) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 10 18:33:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <200406101436.24211.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Lyle Bickley wrote: > You're probably talking to a lot of folks who have a several Amigas (like > myself) and love 'em. Just because you not familiar with them doesn't > automatically make them "a joke". Remember, they were doing graphics in the > '80s in a manner similar to SGI while costing a fraction of the price - in > many ways, way ahead of their time. Amigas supported NTSC, PAL and several > "VGA" modes - including their monitors - which non-Amiga systems and monitors > of the time couldn't begin to support (other than SGI). And if you think > Amigas are a pain to setup, try an equivalent SGI box ;-) I know. That was just heat o' the moment bitching. I'm still pissed about the poor hardware interconnectability between models, but then that was Commodore. Otherwise, I got it running (finally) and the Atari 1040ST was considerably less obnoxious. > I would have been glad to help you setup the Amiga's if I had known > about this in advance - as it is, I'm pretty much booked until this > evening's CHM mtg. Well then you'll be able to enjoy the one crap game I was able to find in my library ("Chamber of the Sci-Mutant Preistess") tonight at the shindig. I was surprised to find I had such a dearth of Amiga and Atari ST software. I thought I had a lot so either they're still tucked away in boxes or I need to start collecting Amiga and Atari ST software. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 10 18:48:59 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Why does everything have to be so difficult? > > I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum > event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga > 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, > plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into > the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out > (and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a > DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to > DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also > need to set up). > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > > Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not > insane? Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts. After reading this and the post about the A1000, it looks like you're expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about, as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life. To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The Apples are simple and obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience is what's insane. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 07:10:26 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Why does everything have to be so difficult? > > > > I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum > > event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga > > 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, > > plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into > > the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out > > (and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a > > DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to > > DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also > > need to set up). > > > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > > > > Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not > > insane? > > Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts. > > After reading this and the post about the A1000, it looks like you're > expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about, > as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life. > > To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The Apples are simple and > obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most > people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a > good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of > intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with > little or no experience is what's insane. > > > Doc > I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days. From menadeau at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 19:13:43 2004 From: menadeau at comcast.net (Michael Nadeau) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Pertec PCC-2000 References: Message-ID: <011501c44f48$f5f4fe90$0b01a8c0@Mike> I've been corresponding with someone who owns a Pertec PCC-2000 S-100 system. He's looking for detailed technical information. Does anyone here have spec sheets or documentation. --Mike From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 10 19:29:11 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> References: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> Message-ID: <200406101929.11120.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 10 June 2004 07:10, Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doc Shipley" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM > Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > > > Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience is what's insane. > > > > > > Doc > > I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never > touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver > if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the > architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of > machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated > put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even > Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days. Then you must not have tried to set up an S/390. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 07:47:44 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> <200406101929.11120.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00d501c44ee9$20185ab0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > On Thursday 10 June 2004 07:10, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doc Shipley" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM > > Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > > > > > Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience is what's insane. > > > > > > > > > Doc > > > > I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never > > touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver > > if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the > > architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of > > machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated > > put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even > > Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days. > > Then you must not have tried to set up an S/390. :) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > No I stick with the simple stuff like Amigas, Atari ST's, 8 bit Commodores, Apple IIgs, Timex, old PC's, 68k & PPC Macs, etc. Most of my problems come when trying to find drivers for oddball upgrades, figuring out where to get obsolete parts, or messing with Apple Unix configurations. Just like every other hobby you spend as much time researching as you do acquiring and using (at least for me anyway). TZ From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Thu Jun 10 21:19:15 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Qbus hard disk controller - Found word(s) error XXX in the Text body. References: <002c01c44d83$f8521540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <40C64953.8C948FBE@compsys.to> <10406100002.ZM24777@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <40C916A3.3A5A4496@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Jun 8, 19:18, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Controller Model Max RD5n Drive > > RQDX3 (M8639-YB) RD53 > M8639-YB is not RQDX3, it's RQDX2. Jerome Fine replies: YOU ARE CORRECT!! I did not check the details enough!! I almost always seem to have at least ONE typo in anything over 50 words. Note that none of the RQDXn have any BOOT ROMS, which is standard for a DEC controller as opposed to 3rd party controllers which usually have BOOT ROMS. And even the RQDX3 is difficult to use with any MFM drive except DEC RD5n and DEC RD3n drives. As for the RQDX1 and RQDX2, I don't ever seem to remember seeing one without a real DEC drive, although I have heard that XXDP has been patched to use a non-standard (i.e. non-DEC MFM drive). With regard to being able to FORMAT a drive with an RQDXn controller, normally special XXDP programs from DEC are REQUIRED! I should also have added that ONLY the M7555 board (RQDX3) is dual, the M8639 boards are all quad. In addition, the power needed is also very different. The quad boards require over 6 Amps on the 6 Volts while the dual board requires just over 2 Amps on the 6 Volts. While this aspect is not usually a problem, it makes like almost impossible in a VT103 when the TOTAL at 6 Volts is ONLY 16 Amps. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 10 21:44:03 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040611024403.GB14301@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 02:07:52PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Deano Calver wrote: > > > Your using an Amiga 1000. Its doesn't have its boot software (called > > Kickstart) in ROM like every Amiga, so you need a Kickstart disk. I > > originally typed boot firmware but then realised that made no sense in > > this case :-) > > > > Amiga 1000 also has a different chipset that misses a few graphics modes. > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? No... the A1000 was the original model... the A500 was marketed as a one piece "stripped down model", and the A2000 was the big boy. The reason the A1000 needs a Kickstart disk is because the ROMs weren't ready in 1985. By the time the A500 and A2000 came out a couple of years later, C= _tried_ to get A1000 owners to upgrade to A2000s with two or three sets of large incentives, but lots of people wouldn't switch. And it's not just them... I'm supposed to know that a Mac IIci is faster than a IIsi? Doesn't 's' come after 'c' in the alphabet? And how do you rank, based on name alone, a IIILC and a IIfx? I'm sure lots of us could come up with naming schemes that are bizarre today. > They certainly were insane, weren't they? Well... that's a different matter... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Jun-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.5 F (-68.0 C) Windchill -136.8 F (-93.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.1 kts Grid 062 Barometer 674.1 mb (10848. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 10 21:55:18 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <40C8D70C.6000905@rattie.demon.co.uk> References: <40C8D70C.6000905@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040611025518.GC14301@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 10:47:56PM +0100, Deano Calver wrote: > So every post A1000 Amiga has 'Extra Halfbrite mode' with a 6 bit plane > graphics mode but only a 32 entry CLUT. The top 32 colours are simple > the palette colours divided by 2. And many of us dropped a few bucks for a newer Denise. > It expansion connection is pin compatible with a A500 but not physically > compatible, at least without a hack saw and as somebody else mentioned > its parellel and serial ports are the other sex from all other Amiga's > and PC. However, you usually _could_ put an A500 expansion on an A1000... I stuck with my A1000 as a daily machine until I got an A3000, but by then, I'd put 3.5MB of FAST RAM on/in it, a SCSI port, a Rejuvinator, (1MB of CHIP and ROM Kickstart), plus a ROM switcher so I could choose between 3 versions of the OS, if I really needed to. And at the time, the A1000 was on the UUCP maps as kumiss.uucp (check out deja.com for references)... I was using it to pick up mail and a seriously reduced netnews feed in 1987, at first on a pair of ST-225s hooked up through an ISA MFM HDC - a 20MB news spool! I don't recall too many Macs being directly connected to Usenet in 1987... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Jun-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.8 F (-68.3 C) Windchill -136.1 F (-93.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.2 kts Grid 058 Barometer 674.3 mb (10840. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 10:05:15 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: <40C8D70C.6000905@rattie.demon.co.uk> <20040611025518.GC14301@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <012f01c44efc$563b79c0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:55 PM Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > However, you usually _could_ put an A500 expansion on an A1000... > Wasn't the expansion bus connector upside down on the A500 compared to the A1000? From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 10 22:13:02 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040611031302.GD14301@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 12:05:55AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > > _NOW_ do you know why I like to have schemaitcs to everything :-). Commodore was one of the last home computer companies to make schematics available. The A500/A2000 tech reference has the schematics, and even 15 years ago, ordinary people could buy it (i.e., it wasn't restricted to service centers only). > In any case, assuming the RGB signals are compatible (I assume the Amiaga > outpus analogue RGB at TV rates), you'd get a better picture using them. > It should just be a matter of matching up the signals on the 2 connectors. Yes... the Amiga just slammed out colors on the R, G and B pins at either PAL or NTSC frequencies (~15KHz, not 31KHz like VGA), at least for older models and those without "flicker fixers" (buffering hardware that would accept 15KHz input and emit 31KHz output to use with a VGA-style monitor, integral to the A3000, and a card option for other models). What I can't remember without looking it up is how Amigas handled sync pulses... it's nothing bizarre, but I forget if it's HSync/VSync positive or negative logic. Since I typically used C= monitors, it was only ever an issue once - I got an upgrade board for a C= 1702 (C-64 chroma/luma/ composite) monitor that added RGBI for the C-128. I hacked the board a bit and got it to work with analog RGB on my A1000 before I could afford a "proper" RGB monitor. One part of the hack was an external sync pulse inverter. I etched my own PCB and put a DPDT switch and a 7404 on the sync signals so I could invert or buffer the sync pulses. It worked great until my house was broken into in 1990 and they stole it, my A500 (a game machine next to my workhorse A1000) and a couple of PETs. The A1000 was lying face down next to everything - they almost got it, too. The real loss, though, was my "WEDGE" for the A500 - a rare device that plugged into the expansion socket and provided an 8bit ISA slot. I had modified mine to work with serial boards as well as MFM HDCs (additional IRQ wiring). A500s were cheap even then... I've never seen another WEDGE, ever. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Jun-2004 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -91.5 F (-68.7 C) Windchill -135.3 F (-93 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12 kts Grid 063 Barometer 674.4 mb (10836. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Jun 10 22:24:44 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks Message-ID: > Wasn't the expansion bus connector upside down on the A500 compared > to the A1000? No, it was back to front and on the wrong side. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 22:33:54 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment Message-ID: <20040611033354.704.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC module, All the language that left in my brain is A=1 B=1 C=A+B PRINT C Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. EXIT or QUIT does not work. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 10 22:37:41 2004 From: george at rachors.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <20040611033354.704.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Never been in that environment but try: BYE George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > module, > > All the language that left in my brain is > > A=1 > B=1 > C=A+B > PRINT C > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. > EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 22:38:13 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:24 2005 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Qbus hard disk controller - Found word(s) error XXX in the Text body. In-Reply-To: <40C916A3.3A5A4496@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20040611033813.22658.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > ... > > Note that none of the RQDXn have any BOOT ROMS, > which > is standard for a DEC controller as opposed to 3rd > party controllers > which usually have BOOT ROMS. And even the RQDX3 I have a question about BOOT ROMS. Does a MSCP compatible disk controller need a boot rom to boot from a HD connected to it? I am ingorant about this issue. > is difficult > to use with any MFM drive except DEC RD5n and DEC > RD3n > drives. As for the RQDX1 and RQDX2, I don't ever > seem to > remember seeing one without a real DEC drive, > although I have > heard that XXDP has been patched to use a > non-standard (i.e. > non-DEC MFM drive). With regard to being able to > FORMAT > a drive with an RQDXn controller, normally special > XXDP programs > from DEC are REQUIRED! > > I should also have added that ONLY the M7555 board > (RQDX3) > is dual, the M8639 boards are all quad. In > addition, the power > needed is also very different. The quad boards > require over 6 Amps > on the 6 Volts while the dual board requires just > over 2 Amps on > the 6 Volts. While this aspect is not usually a > problem, it makes > like almost impossible in a VT103 when the TOTAL at > 6 Volts > is ONLY 16 Amps. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > -- > If you attempted to send a reply and the original > e-mail > address has been discontinued due a high volume of > junk > e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can > be > obtained by replacing the four characters preceding > the > 'at' with the four digits of the current year. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 10 22:41:10 2004 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: NY/NJ/CT - Part time tech Jobs available... Message-ID: <40C929D6.7000508@atarimuseum.com> Hello all... I checked with Jay on this and he said it would be okay to make a posting. I run a small computer consulting firm, I am looking for tech's/engineers for on-call on-site support in the following area's: New York: Manhattan, Westchester, Putnam New Jersey: Northern and Rockland, NY area Southern Connecticut 1. I am looking for Macintosh Classic/OS X skilled (both OS and HW) 2. Cisco Networking Engineers (Routers/firewalls/switches) 3. Cable Plant/Punch-down/Patch Panel installers 4. PC Techs with Windows 95-XP skills as well as H/W Skills (Prefer those who know DOS and don't use the excuse "It's plug and play" when resolving IRQ/Port I/O issues. 5. Server Side engineers with Solaris, Windows NT/2K, Novell 3-6 This is part time, hourly on-call work as well as short term installation/upgrade projects. Those eligible: I am looking for skilled/experienced individuals, not those who've had "lab time" and taken a certification and passed, sorry but I need individuals who already have time in real world customer environments. I prefer to offer these opportunities to those currently unemployeed versus those looking for some side work, so please if you are already employeed, let me know, I would still keep you in mind but give those currently out of work these assignments ahead of you. Please email your resume to legacyengineer@att.net Curt -- Curt Vendel & Karl Morris ----------------------------------------------------------------------- The Atari Museum http://www.atarimuseum.com The Atari Explorer http://www.atari-explorer.com From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jun 10 22:43:23 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C92A5B.80903@jcwren.com> Unless you where in that Apple program that gave you a bogus interpeter, where all the commands were renamed, and you had to guess how to get out. It so happened it was 'EGRESS'. --jc George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: >Never been in that environment but try: > >BYE > >George Rachor > >========================================================= >George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com >Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com >United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > >On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > >>I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC >>module, >> >>All the language that left in my brain is >> >>A=1 >>B=1 >>C=A+B >>PRINT C >> >>Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. >>EXIT or QUIT does not work. >> >> >> >> >>__________________________________ >>Do you Yahoo!? >>Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >>http://messenger.yahoo.com/ >> >> >> > > > > From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 10 22:43:50 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040611034350.26705.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> --- "George Leo Rachor Jr." wrote: > Never been in that environment but try: > > BYE It does not work. There is no reset button and the only way I tried sucessfully was to pull the power cord and let the internal battery drain out. > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : > KD7DCX > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > > module, > > > > > All the language that left in my brain is > > > > A=1 > > B=1 > > C=A+B > > PRINT C > > > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic > environment. > > EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 10 23:10:32 2004 From: george at rachors.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <20040611034350.26705.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry... worth a shot... George ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > --- "George Leo Rachor Jr." > wrote: > > Never been in that environment but try: > > > > BYE > It does not work. There is no reset button and the > only way I tried sucessfully was to pull the power > cord and let the internal battery drain out. > > > > > George Rachor > > > > > ========================================================= > > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > > United States of America Amateur Radio : > > KD7DCX > > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > > > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > > > module, > > > > > > > > > All the language that left in my brain is > > > > > > A=1 > > > B=1 > > > C=A+B > > > PRINT C > > > > > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic > > environment. > > > EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 10 23:17:27 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys Message-ID: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? How about the 3.5" diskettes? (apple IIc+) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 10 23:20:07 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040610211732.R95704@newshell.lmi.net> > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > module, > Now the problem is how to exit the basic > environment. > EXIT or QUIT does not work. SYSTEM ? CMD"S" ? EGRESS ? From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 10 23:24:16 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <20040610211732.R95704@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 10, 2004 09:20:07 PM Message-ID: <200406110424.i5B4OGHQ025576@onyx.spiritone.com> > > > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > > module, > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic > > environment. > > EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > SYSTEM ? > CMD"S" ? > EGRESS ? DONE ? From jcwren at jcwren.com Thu Jun 10 23:32:09 2004 From: jcwren at jcwren.com (J.C. Wren) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <20040611033354.704.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040611033354.704.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40C935C9.5050909@jcwren.com> According to this, it's Corvallis BASIC, which is compatible with GWBASIC and MS-BASIC. This means the exit command is 'SYSTEM'. http://www.cmtinc.com/aboutcmt/design.html There were several Google hits, starting with "cmt mcii", followed by "cmt mcv", followed by "corvallis basic". --jc SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: >I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC >module, > >All the language that left in my brain is > >A=1 >B=1 >C=A+B >PRINT C > >Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. >EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 23:37:57 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 12:17 AM Subject: Apple II floppys > Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? I just found a fairly good size stash of Kodak DS/DD 5.25" floppies in sealed (shrink-wrapped) boxes of 10. I was going to offer some to this list but haven't gotten around to it yet...What's the concensus of a fair price? From tponsford at theriver.com Thu Jun 10 21:53:28 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Sandia and Los Alamos Auction In-Reply-To: <40C83E02.26329.291D0C2C@localhost> References: <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> <40C83E02.26329.291D0C2C@localhost> Message-ID: <40C91EA8.1040900@theriver.com> While I have bought several items at the Bently's auctions, none were remote. They do have bidding by Proxy, sometimes via phone, or by a maximum bid (a la ebay) and you need to set it up with the front office, I was out-bid on several items by some proxy bidder in Florida once. I think there are more details on their main web site. I have found them to be very professional and will go out of thier way to help. Cheers Tom Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > >>http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/pages/MVC-016S_JPG.htm > > > Has anyone succeeded in bidding/buying from a Bentleys auction > from a distance? I called them, and couldn't quite communicate > with their front office staff. They said, repeatedly, that they'd > package up anything I won, but that I'd have to arrange for pickup. > I couldn't get across to them that I wanted *them* to drop the > package in the mail/UPS/whatever. It seems like they're willing to > do 90% of what's necessary for off-site buyers, but.....?? > > Alternatively, is anyone going to the sale this weekend? :) > (I'm interested in a couple of laptop size items.) > > thanks, > > Stan -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 10 23:41:49 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <200406110424.i5B4OGHQ025576@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200406110424.i5B4OGHQ025576@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <200406110445.AAA05790@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. >>> [...guesses...] >> [...guesses...] > [...guesses...] There may not be any other environment to exit to. If the BASIC engine _is_ the OS, which it is on some old machines.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mross666 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 12:34:38 2004 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Help with Lisa Needed Message-ID: >Does anyone know for sure that if the 4 batteries on the Lisa motherboard >are dead, if that will prevent it from powering up? This machine was >working >about 3 years back when it went into storage. Thanks for any tips. No, it won't... but one thing you have to watch; there are two microswitches to detect if the covers are on or not - one front, one rear. If they aren't closed, either by the covers or 'bodging', the thing won't power up. I've picked up a couple of cheap 'dead' Lisae where that was the only problem! Mike http://www.corestore.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 11 00:04:48 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: RX50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040610220351.04b83ec0@mail.zipcon.net> Do you just need floppies formatted for RX50? what machine do you need them for? if it's for a Rainbow, then CPM and MSDOS will format them for you. At 12:45 PM 6/10/2004, you wrote: >Hi Thom, > >Do you have any RX50 floppy disks? > >John > >/------------------------------------------------------\ >| Atlantic Undersea Test and Evaluation Center (AUTEC) | >+------------------------------------------------------+ >| John James Hinkamp Hinkamp@wpb.nuwc.navy.mil > | >| AUTEC Software Engineer 561-655-5155 x4325 (work) | >| Andros Island, Bahamas 561-655-5155 x5690 (home) | >+------------------------------------------------------+ From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Jun 10 23:56:20 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys In-Reply-To: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1578.65.123.179.146.1086929780.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Finding disks of any density is almost impossible nowdays. I picked up about 100 of them from a local computer dealer as old stock -- he just wanted to get rid of them, so I got them for free. Same seems to be true on DSDD 3.5" disks -- I haven't seen them available for several years, just the HD ones now. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO > > Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? > > How about the 3.5" diskettes? (apple IIc+) > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 11 00:14:03 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys In-Reply-To: <1578.65.123.179.146.1086929780.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <1578.65.123.179.146.1086929780.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <200406110014.03776.pat@computer-refuge.org> > > Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? > > > > How about the 3.5" diskettes? (apple IIc+) On Thursday 10 June 2004 23:56, ghldbrd@ccp.com wrote: > Finding disks of any density is almost impossible nowdays. I picked > up about 100 of them from a local computer dealer as old stock -- he > just wanted to get rid of them, so I got them for free. > > Same seems to be true on DSDD 3.5" disks -- I haven't seen them > available for several years, just the HD ones now. Yes, quite impossible, if you don't count hamfests or eBay. :) I bought about 300 (used) 5.25" floppies (a mix of "DSDD" and "DSHD" disks) for $10 + shipping about a year ago off eBay. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 11 00:24:50 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040610222411.03ebeec0@mail.zipcon.net> -SNip- >One thing I'd like is an inexpensive PC device to talk to a floppy drive >directly and then be able to do all the necessary processing in >software. -End Snip- not the cheapest thing out there, but a catweasel does that pretty well... From cb at mythtech.net Fri Jun 11 00:46:07 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. Message-ID: >> None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts >> will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys >> me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. > >The problem is that they now have to pay to get rid of anything that >doesn't work or is simply not saleable. Blame it on the environment :) That wasn't the case for the one near me (pay to dump garbage... in NJ? BAH! We love toxic waste, we like to build sports stadiums on it). The one that had been near me told me they wouldn't take them, because they got sick of people expecting support, or wanting to return them when Windows crashed. Since they had a strick "All Sales As Is, All Sales Final" policy, they were simply tired of pointing that out to people. So they stopped selling CPUs to avoid the headaches. -chris From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 11 00:27:54 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Amiga external SCSI question Message-ID: <40C942DA.8040900@mdrconsult.com> Is the Amiga A2091 external interface the same pinout as the old Apple 25-pin connector? I have the pinout for the A2091, but not for the Apple. Doc From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri Jun 11 01:43:33 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Amiga external SCSI question Message-ID: > Is the Amiga A2091 external interface the same pinout as the old > Apple 25-pin connector? I have the pinout for the A2091, but not for > the Apple. Yup, I used a MAC SCSI box on my A2000/A2091 for years. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 01:55:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Davison, Lee wrote: > Video out on the modulator to Chroma in on the monitor, mono video out > on the Amiga to Video in on the monitor. Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. Clever... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 01:58:06 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > I've long since given up trying to find the right cable for things like > this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it > with whatever device it goes with... It would have been quicker but I had a very limited time to get everything together and would've taken me as much time just to find all the parts and tools. One of these days I'll be organized. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 02:06:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not > > insane? > > Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts. I figured it would :) > After reading this and the post about the A1000, it looks like you're > expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about, > as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life. Kinda. But that misses the point of my rant (which may not have come across so well) which is that these are two very closely related models yet Commdore chose to introduce just enough difference between models that interchanging something as simple as a video cable was an obstacle to overcome. Contrast that with, say, the old Atari 8-bit series where each model used the same cable type for peripherals, video, etc. Or the Apple ][ which maintained backward hardware compatibility all the way through their last ][ model (//gs). It's just brain-dead to introduce design variations like that, both in an engineering and business sense. > To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The Apples are simple and > obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most > people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a > good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of > intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with > little or no experience is what's insane. C'mon, an S/390 is a tad bit more complex than an Amiga. But ultimately I'm comparing my experiences with other equivalent era machines. For instance, the first time I ever set up an Atari 800 system I just plugged everything in where it seemed it needed to go and it booted up. So just what was the "design philosophy" of the Amiga? Require the purchase of separate video cables when you upgraded? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 02:08:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never touched > before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver if you ever > run into problems. If you start getting into the architecture find a decent > forum that caters to those kind of machines. Having a manual is very > helpful, and if you get frustrated put the thing down and go do something > else for a while. I guess even Sellam is human like the rest of us and has > bad days. Not really a bad day, just that I wanted to throw these two systems together in short order for the Computer History Museum event so I could get in a few hours of work before I had to leave. Instead, the Amiga debacle absorbed way more time than I wanted it to and I lost an afternoon futzing around with stupid issues. Oh well... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 02:10:05 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Pertec PCC-2000 In-Reply-To: <011501c44f48$f5f4fe90$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Michael Nadeau wrote: > I've been corresponding with someone who owns a Pertec PCC-2000 S-100 > system. He's looking for detailed technical information. Does anyone here > have spec sheets or documentation. Hi Mike. I've got one of these beasts. He's called Herbie. The previous owner named him that and always referred to him in first person. I got Herbie from the owner's daughter when the owner fell ill. I got software and documentation along with Herbie but it would take me a while to find it and dig it out. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 02:14:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <20040611033354.704.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > module, > > All the language that left in my brain is > > A=1 > B=1 > C=A+B > PRINT C > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. > EXIT or QUIT does not work. SYSTEM is your salvation. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 02:17:11 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys In-Reply-To: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? > > How about the 3.5" diskettes? (apple IIc+) You mean blank floppies? Sure. Try any (except Salvation Army and Goodwill) thrift store in the Bay Area. They've usually got old disks packed in groups of ten or so in plastic baggies for a buck or so a piece. Just make sure they are the right type (single or double density). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 14:32:16 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys References: Message-ID: <018001c44f21$a355c9c0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 3:17 AM Subject: Re: Apple II floppys > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ron Hudson wrote: > > > Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? > > > > How about the 3.5" diskettes? (apple IIc+) > > You mean blank floppies? Sure. Try any (except Salvation Army and > Goodwill) thrift store in the Bay Area. They've usually got old disks > packed in groups of ten or so in plastic baggies for a buck or so a piece. > Just make sure they are the right type (single or double density). > > > -- All of my bulk floppies came from duplicators that had old stock that was obsolete (5.25" DD, 3.5" DD) http://www.meritline.com/floppy-disk-disc-disks-discs.html has 3.5" DD @ $60 for 500 ebay also has deals (sometimes) if you look there allot. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 11 02:32:21 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Qbus hard disk controller - Found word(s) error XXX in the Text body. In-Reply-To: SHAUN RIPLEY "Re: [SPAM] - Re: Qbus hard disk controller - Found word(s) error XXX in the Text body." (Jun 10, 20:38) References: <20040611033813.22658.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <10406110832.ZM5911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 20:38, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > --- "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > > ... > > > > Note that none of the RQDXn have any BOOT ROMS, > > which > > is standard for a DEC controller as opposed to 3rd > > party controllers > > which usually have BOOT ROMS. And even the RQDX3 > > I have a question about BOOT ROMS. Does a MSCP > compatible disk controller need a boot rom to boot > from a HD connected to it? I am ingorant about this > issue. Yes, it does. For Q-Bus machines, the processor card (if it's a quad-height, ie KDF11B or KDJ11B) should have boot ROMs that can handle MSCP, though the older ones might not behave well with bigger/later drives. The MXV11B-2 boot ROMs can do it, and they also fit the MRV11D. DEC boot ROMs may not always work with third-party MSCP controllers, but such 3P controllers often have their own boot ROMs. You could enter an MSCP boot via ODT, but it's VERY long! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 11 02:23:30 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Qbus hard disk controller - Found word(s) error XXX in the Text body. In-Reply-To: "Jerome H. Fine" "Re: [SPAM] - Re: Qbus hard disk controller - Found word(s) error XXX in the Text body." (Jun 10, 22:19) References: <002c01c44d83$f8521540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <40C64953.8C948FBE@compsys.to> <10406100002.ZM24777@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <40C916A3.3A5A4496@compsys.to> Message-ID: <10406110823.ZM5906@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 22:19, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > > On Jun 8, 19:18, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > Controller Model Max RD5n Drive > > > RQDX3 (M8639-YB) RD53 > > M8639-YB is not RQDX3, it's RQDX2. > > YOU ARE CORRECT!! I did not check the details enough!! > I almost always seem to have at least ONE typo in anything > over 50 words. :-) I have that trouble too. > And even the RQDX3 is difficult > to use with any MFM drive except DEC RD5n and DEC RD3n > drives. As for the RQDX1 and RQDX2, I don't ever seem to > remember seeing one without a real DEC drive, although I have > heard that XXDP has been patched to use a non-standard (i.e. > non-DEC MFM drive). With regard to being able to FORMAT > a drive with an RQDXn controller, normally special XXDP programs > from DEC are REQUIRED! The RQDX1 and RQDX2 do tricks at startup to try to figure out what kind of drive they have connected (things like selecting unusual head numbers, seeking to high-numbered tracks) and if the results aren't what they expect, they won't recognise the drive. You can use many non-DEC 10MB drives with an RQDX1, given a suitable (early) version of the ROMs, but other sizes are tricky (and a drive that works with one version won't necessarily work with another). All the relevant drive parameters are fixed in the RQDX1/2 firmware. Things are much easier with the RQDX3, as it stores the drive parameters on the drive, so if you can once format it, it works. The table of values for approved drives is in the formatter program. In the later versions of the RQDX3 firmware, there is the capability to accept a new table entry from the formatter, and later versions of the XXDP formatter (ZRQCG0 and later) allow you to feed it values. If you do that, you also have to tell the formatter NOT to read the defect list (because there isn't one on a non-DEC drive, and when it tries to read it near the end of the 15-30 minute format operation, it will fall over). Working out the right values, however, is non-trivial. I've done it twice. The first time, in about 1990, it took days to work out what some of the entries meant. Now I just use drives it knows about already. You can also format a drive on an RQDX3 on a Vaxstation with VS2000 diagnostics. I don't know if that lets you bypass the UIT (Unit Identifier Table) as well, but I expect so. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From spc at conman.org Fri Jun 11 03:10:45 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <40C8D70C.6000905@rattie.demon.co.uk> from "Deano Calver" at Jun 10, 2004 10:47:56 PM Message-ID: <20040611081045.E271E10B2C88@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Deano Calver once stated: > > But as a games programmer, the Amiga's were an amazing machine, to this > day many PC graphics card blitter are less configurable than the Amiga's... Seeing how you could program the blitter to massage the data into the proper format for the disk drives ... yes, I would say the blitters are more configurable on the Amiga than anything else. -spc (And Exec is the *cleanest* design for an OS I've seen, save for QNX) From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Fri Jun 11 04:04:01 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: OS/2 References: <022701c44e16$ffa95130$0b01a8c0@Mike><000e01c44e19$2da1e4b0$4601a8c0@ebrius> <40C734F1.A865B394@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <010a01c44f93$0adc8ef0$4601a8c0@ebrius> Thanks. I didn't know that. I thought that IBM was just supporting folks they already had. I'll check that out! Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bert Thomas" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:04 PM Subject: Re: OS/2 > > OS/2 is still available for ordinary people, but is sold now by a > company called "Serenity Systems" as eComStation. Although they probably > improved it and added support for new hardware, it is just OS/2. IBM > still maintains OS/2 for large customers. > > "Well if it makes you feel any better, he's probably doing her right now." -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jun 11 02:55:59 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: RX50 In-Reply-To: <200406101440.17496.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200406101440.17496.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20040611095559.74b28217.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:40:17 -0700 Lyle Bickley wrote: > If you have standard 5.25" Diskettes and a PC w/an "AT" type diskette > drive, you can use "PUTR" to created formatted RX50 diskettes. Or a VAXstation / MicroVAX 2000 with floppy drive and ROM test 70 (75?). -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jun 11 02:52:04 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040611095204.4ca8cd6c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004 23:54:11 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I have an SX printer (actually an Apple Laserwriter II NT) on this PC. > > I've used it _a lot_ A long time ago I got a Laserwriter II NT with 320000 copys on the engine. The engine is specified for a lifetime of 300000 copys. It needed a new pickup roller but the rest of it worked still well. Later I replaced it with a Laserwriter II g. PS Level 2, HPPCL, RET, faster CPU and Ethernet. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jun 11 04:58:23 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: HP logic analyser questions Message-ID: Hi all, Does anyone here own or use a HP 1650B (or 1651B) logic analyser? Do they need DSDD 3.5" disks or can they accept DSHDs as well? I ask because someone has just offered me a HP 1650B - system disk, a few pods and a 1650B analyser - but doesn't have any manuals or know what type of disk it needs. I'm guessing DSDD-only, given that the system disk is supposedly DSDD. Is it possible to duplicate the operating system boot disk using standard hardware (i.e. a PC or my RISC PC)? Anyone got PDF versions of the Operator's Manual, Service Manual and/or Programming Manual? Sorry for the OT-ness of this message - sure, it's not a computer, but it meets the 10-year-rule - the power-on selftest screen displays "COPYRIGHT 1987", so that would make the firmware, what, 16 years old? Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... How come all the buttons keep flying off my shirt? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 05:30:01 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.2.20040610222411.03ebeec0@mail.zipcon.net> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610222411.03ebeec0@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <1086949801.15873.54.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 05:24, Geoff Reed wrote: > -SNip- > > >One thing I'd like is an inexpensive PC device to talk to a floppy drive > >directly and then be able to do all the necessary processing in > >software. > -End Snip- > > not the cheapest thing out there, but a catweasel does that pretty well... sure, but as I'm broke it'd be nice to build something out of bits I have lying around :-) The thing being external would be nice too, and swappable between machines easily. Plus I gather there's still an element of coding involved to get the Catweasel to actually do anything useful. Having said all that, I need to sit down and see if this is at all possible. It's quite likely that the data rate through the port just won't be high enough without external buffering - borne out by the fact that I've never heard of anyone else doing this! Plus I'm not sure how the raw data stream is clocked (rather, I have the info here, I just can't remember without going to look it up). If the floppy drive just starts spewing out raw data on a read but the clock is handled at the host side then I might have problems there... cheers Jules From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Jun 11 05:34:26 2004 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks Message-ID: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> Message: 2 Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 18:15:48 -0400 >>>>> "paul" == Paul Koning writes: paul>>>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: paul> paul> Fred> So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying paul> Fred> convention by giving the later model a lower model number paul> paul> Fred> The Ford model A came after the model T paul> paul> And the 11/730 came after the 11/750 which came after the 11/780. paul> The 11/05 came after the 11/20, and the 11/04 came later than that... paul> paul> paul Not to forget the Sun SPARCstation 5, which came after the 10 and had the new style (gray/violet opposed to gray only) housing... -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de +++ Jetzt WLAN-Router für alle DSL-Einsteiger und Wechsler +++ GMX DSL-Powertarife zudem 3 Monate gratis* http://www.gmx.net/dsl From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 11 05:51:51 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: <20040611033354.704.qmail@web51805.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040611065151.008aaa40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> CRAP! How did I miss that!!! I have a complete MC-II with the HP-41 module and a bunch of other modules and all the manuals but the main unit is dead and I've been looking for another one for a couple of years. Joe At 08:33 PM 6/10/04 -0700, you wrote: >I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC >module, > >All the language that left in my brain is > >A=1 >B=1 >C=A+B >PRINT C > >Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. >EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > >__________________________________ >Do you Yahoo!? >Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. >http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 11 05:57:29 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: HP logic analyser questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:58 AM 6/11/04 +0100, you wrote: >Hi all, >Does anyone here own or use a HP 1650B (or 1651B) logic analyser? >Do they need DSDD 3.5" disks or can they accept DSHDs as well? >I ask because someone has just offered me a HP 1650B - system disk, a few >pods and a 1650B analyser - but doesn't have any manuals or know what type of >disk it needs. I'm guessing DSDD-only, given that the system disk is >supposedly DSDD. I strongly suspect it will require 720k disks. Most of the HP disk drives do and they WILL NOT accept a 1.44Mb disk. >Is it possible to duplicate the operating system boot disk using standard >hardware (i.e. a PC or my RISC PC)? Teledisk should be able to do it. The LIF Utilities should be able to read and write the disks and tranfer the contents to a PC. Joe Anyone got PDF versions of the Operator's Manual, Service Manual and/or >Programming Manual? > >Sorry for the OT-ness of this message - sure, it's not a computer, but it >meets the 10-year-rule - the power-on selftest screen displays "COPYRIGHT >1987", so that would make the firmware, what, 16 years old? > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... How come all the buttons keep flying off my shirt? > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 06:00:37 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> Message-ID: <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 10:34, Arno Kletzander wrote: > Not to forget the Sun SPARCstation 5, which came after the 10 and had the > new style (gray/violet opposed to gray only) housing... Weren't both 10's and 20's actually SparcStation 3's? Damn confusing... Good ol' marketing... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 06:06:39 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <1086949801.15873.54.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610222411.03ebeec0@mail.zipcon.net> <1086949801.15873.54.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <1086951998.15873.99.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 10:30, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 05:24, Geoff Reed wrote: > > -SNip- > > > > >One thing I'd like is an inexpensive PC device to talk to a floppy drive > > >directly and then be able to do all the necessary processing in > > >software. > > -End Snip- rats, looks like the port just isn't fast enough (and the speed limitation is related to ISA bus hang-ups, not the speed of modern machines): http://tinyurl.com/2d5gn I suppose the only thing to do would be to stuff an entire track into a large external buffer, then read it into the PC via the parallel port at a slower speed for actual processing. (Presumably what the Backpack drive does) More effort than I can actually be bothered with at the moment :-) cheers Jules From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 11 06:44:11 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys Message-ID: <200406111144.i5BBiBhc056874@huey.classiccmp.org> At 23:56 10/06/2004 -0500, you wrote: >Finding disks of any density is almost impossible nowdays. I picked up >about 100 of them from a local computer dealer as old stock -- he just >wanted to get rid of them, so I got them for free. > >Same seems to be true on DSDD 3.5" disks -- I haven't seen them available >for several years, just the HD ones now. > >Gary Hildebrand >ST. Joseph, MO I've got 10,000+ 3.5" DSDD disks in boxes of 500 - Many as you want are yours for the cost of shipping (from Ottawa). Only catch is they have no write protect tabs (from the days when I used to ship on diskette)... I made up a little cheater to slip in under the disk corner - not the best for daily R/W use, but works very well for making permanent/backup copies of things. Also have a Victory autoloading drive if anyone is interested. (load/accept/reject under serial port control - processess 100 disks at a time). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jun 11 09:29:23 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <003501c44fc0$7efd9680$23406b43@66067007> I find my at the thrift stores here sometimes new but mostly used. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Hudson" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 11:17 PM Subject: Apple II floppys > > Are there still places to get 5.25" diskettes for Apple II? > > How about the 3.5" diskettes? (apple IIc+) > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 09:44:47 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question Message-ID: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> Hmm, my pondering about reading raw data from floppies got me thinking. I have some data on low level floppy format, which gives the following information: Each track has an index gap, followed by a gap 1, followed by a number of sectors, followed by a termination gap. Each sector is made up of an ID field, seperator gap, data field, and then a trailing gap on all except the last sector on a track. This is given as the same for both MFM and FM recording. The information I have gives the makeup of each of the gap types in terms of bit patterns, counts, what clock transitions are missing for MFM formats etc. Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Or is it dependant on the controller chip being used? cheers Jules From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Jun 11 10:02:59 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 Message-ID: <1086966178.6149.9.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Hi, This was on the last list of items I wanted to get rid of but no one seemed to want it. Here's your last chance otherwise it gets scrapped (I don't really want to but I need it out of my place). Please don't ask for parts off of it. That doesn't get rid of it and only makes it more difficult to get rid of. If you want parts, take the whole thing, then I don't care what you do with it. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 11 10:31:44 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <10406102013.ZM25879@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <38288.80.242.32.51.1086684946.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <000701c44d8f$b2e9def0$5b01a8c0@athlon> <48338.80.242.32.51.1086858738.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> <10406102013.ZM25879@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <49025.80.242.32.51.1086967904.squirrel@vorbis.demon.co.uk> > :-) Be careful; ones I've seen that look like parallel port > connecitons need a special card with the voltage regulators on them > (I've got an ALL-02 like that). I think I'll break with convention and actually Read The Manual before use :) -- adrian/witchy Binary Dinosaurs owner/curator www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UKs biggest home computer collection? From slug at aeminium.org Thu Jun 10 17:21:25 2004 From: slug at aeminium.org (Nuno Sucena Almeida) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:25 2005 Subject: tektronics XP419C Message-ID: <20040610222125.GA87596@freebsd.aeminium.pt> Hello Marc, on my search through google i found a message from you saying that you could put to work several tektronics XP419C X terminals. I got one but i need the X server binary so i can download it to the machine using tftp/nfs. Could you please point me to some location or better, would you be kind enough to send me the .tar.gz of it? Regards, Nuno -- CT1FOX - http://aeminium.org/slug D30B 54C0 40A7 7D61 C44F 4BA4 F071 2168 F494 ACB9 From sml49 at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 19:09:56 2004 From: sml49 at comcast.net (Seth Lewin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold In-Reply-To: <200406101700.i5AH03hi047764@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On June 9 John Allain wrote: > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > I can't throw them out, on conscience. At one MacWorld I attended one vendor had taken dozens of Pluses, SE's, SE30's and Classics and built what can only be called a throne out of them, with a Lisa for an ottoman - and ran the Pyro! screensaver on them all, then photographed show-goers sitting on it and handed out the Polaroids. That took dozens of mini-Macs but perhaps you could use the few you have to do something equally silly - run the Energizer Bunny, network version. Hook 'em together with PhoneNet, install the init on them all and the "Start Wabbit" application on one, and let it rip. Bunny marches across one screen, then the next, then the next and around and around. I have the software if you want it. Sort of a deranged kinetic art form... Seth Lewin From earlj at qix.net Fri Jun 11 08:35:13 2004 From: earlj at qix.net (earlj@qix.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: OSI Message-ID: <40C9B511.46A9@qix.net> Hello Dave, Did you ever find a home for your OSI machine? I have a lot of OSI literature to give away. Earl Morris From et at arpanet.com Fri Jun 11 08:29:21 2004 From: et at arpanet.com (et@arpanet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Vacuum tube logic thing Message-ID: Hi. I realize it's been a while, but I just came across your post, and was wondering if you still have the logic trainer? Thanks. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 11 10:48:12 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Vacuum tube logic thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hi. I realize it's been a while, but I just came across your post, > and was wondering if you still have the logic trainer? Yes, I do, available for trade. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 10:56:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Seth Lewin wrote: > At one MacWorld I attended one vendor had taken dozens of Pluses, SE's, > SE30's and Classics and built what can only be called a throne out of them, > with a Lisa for an ottoman - and ran the Pyro! screensaver on them all, then > photographed show-goers sitting on it and handed out the Polaroids. That > took dozens of mini-Macs but perhaps you could use the few you have to do > something equally silly - run the Energizer Bunny, network version. Hook 'em > together with PhoneNet, install the init on them all and the "Start Wabbit" > application on one, and let it rip. Bunny marches across one screen, then > the next, then the next and around and around. I have the software if you > want it. Sort of a deranged kinetic art form... For those excessively bored with way too much free time on their hands, you could try building a MacArc if you have enough. If you stack Macs one on top of the other, the one on top will be at a 5-10 degree angle from the one on the bottom. If you stack enough of them, it'll eventually make an arc (of indeterminate length). You'll need to use epoxy or something however. It'll probably get you on the news, especially if it collapses just as you are standing underneath for the victory shot. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 11:01:26 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 In-Reply-To: <1086966178.6149.9.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20040611160126.35369.qmail@web51802.mail.yahoo.com> Are you in california? Too bad this rare thing will be scrapped. Why not post it on ebay and insist that buyers pick up only? You might have a wider audience there. --- Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > This was on the last list of items I wanted to get > rid of but no one > seemed to want it. Here's your last chance > otherwise it gets scrapped > (I don't really want to but I need it out of my > place). > > Please don't ask for parts off of it. That doesn't > get rid of it and > only makes it more difficult to get rid of. If you > want parts, take the > whole thing, then I don't care what you do with it. > > Thanks. > -- > > TTFN - Guy > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 11 11:12:58 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 In-Reply-To: <1086966178.6149.9.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> References: <1086966178.6149.9.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <200406111614.MAA08419@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 > This was on the last list of items I wanted to get rid of but no one > seemed to want it. But what _is_ it? How physically big is it? Where is it now? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cb at mythtech.net Fri Jun 11 11:20:56 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold Message-ID: >perhaps you could use the few you have to do >something equally silly - run the Energizer Bunny, network version. Hook 'em >together with PhoneNet, install the init on them all and the "Start Wabbit" >application on one, and let it rip. Bunny marches across one screen, then >the next, then the next and around and around. I have the software if you >want it. Sort of a deranged kinetic art form... Hehe, that's the greatest thing! I should write something similar for myself. I currently have 3 Mac screens (two different Macs), and a Windows screen all facing me... I should write a little cross platform app to do something similar so I can have it run across each of my 4 screens. hehe... now I know what to do on my next down day :-) -chris From tony.eros at machm.org Fri Jun 11 11:26:00 2004 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Any MacIvory boards from Symbolics? Was: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200406111626.MAA61719@smtp.9netave.com> John - Good question -- does the Mac Classic have any NuBus slots? I'd like to snag one of the Symbolics MacIvory lisp machine cards to run on a Mac. Anybody have a MacIvory card they're not using? -- Tony -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Allain Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 10:53 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. OK I'm not talking about the burger. But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. I can't throw them out, on conscience. John A. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 11 11:35:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question Message-ID: <200406111635.JAA05443@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Jules The formats for MFM and FM are mostly well defined but they are not the only formats out there. There was a problem with one of the early controller chips ( I think it was the 1791 ) that had problems with all 0 gaps or something. In general, FM is FM and MFM is MFM. The clock rates are different for 8 inch and 5-1/4, single, double and quad. There are at least two other common soft sectored formats that I know of. There is the Aplle II format and there is M2FM that Intel used. Hard sectored formats used all kinds of encoding. Most use a simple return to zero type clocking. Sector headers had any number of different combinations. Anyway, going directly into the port is always going to be tough for a PC. PC's are busy with a number of things and don't make particularly good "real time" processors. I'd been thinking of the same things you've been thinking of. There is another way. A while back there was some modem boards called "softmodems". These were made by Cardinal and DSI ( later bought by that sound board company? ). These have DSP chips that run quite fast enough to bit-bang the data from a floppy. One can load code into these boards and run fast enough to monitor the data stream of a floppy. I've hacked the ones used by Cardinal and DSI to use for some DSP projects. I've been considering doing the same to capture images of disk. I'd though it would be easiest to use the disk controller in the PC to deal with select, track stepping and head loads while using this board to read the data. Once the timing data is captured, one can store or decode at ones leisure. Dwight >From: "Jules Richardson" > > >Hmm, my pondering about reading raw data from floppies got me thinking. >I have some data on low level floppy format, which gives the following >information: > >Each track has an index gap, followed by a gap 1, followed by a number >of sectors, followed by a termination gap. > >Each sector is made up of an ID field, seperator gap, data field, and >then a trailing gap on all except the last sector on a track. > >This is given as the same for both MFM and FM recording. > >The information I have gives the makeup of each of the gap types in >terms of bit patterns, counts, what clock transitions are missing for >MFM formats etc. > >Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM >recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Or is it >dependant on the controller chip being used? > >cheers > >Jules > > > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 11 11:37:51 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406111137.51393.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 11 June 2004 06:00, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 10:34, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > Not to forget the Sun SPARCstation 5, which came after the 10 and > > had the new style (gray/violet opposed to gray only) housing... > > Weren't both 10's and 20's actually SparcStation 3's? Damn > confusing... Sparcstation 3???? Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fire at dls.net Fri Jun 11 11:40:37 2004 From: fire at dls.net (fire@dls.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: SCSI cable In-Reply-To: <200406111603.i5BG3khe058121@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406111603.i5BG3khe058121@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040611164037.AA45396850E@demolition.dls.net> VaX enthusiasts, I finally managed to get QBus SCSI card for my MicroVax II thanks to Ebay. It appears like it will fit in fine. It says KZQSA M5976-SA on the side. It has two Centronix-50 Female connectors on it. Question is what is easiest way to connect this to internal full-height DEC SCSI drive with standard 50-pin connector. Get a f-f gender connector and a cable with Centronix-50 F connector on one end and ribbon with internal connectors along it, and terminator at end? I cannot recall what model DEC drive this is, but I thought it was 4GB. How do I find DEC Drive model? I see numbers 74046725-0 A01 GM on side rail, 70-2988501 on top of drive, Model DSP5400S Rev RH12E-CY A01 on back of rail, and another label on the back of drive reading KB34426075 R-75. Board says 54-21265-06 A05 and ZG40516250 and 74P6 and Side 2 5021264-06 A01 I used to like programming in C and Fortran on this machine and the drive died a few years ago. I was hoping to load VMS on to the new big disk and have lots of space to play around in. Thanks for your assistance, Bradley Slavik From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jun 11 12:08:01 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: HP logic analyser questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <31a077bd4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > I strongly suspect it will require 720k disks. Most of the HP disk > drives do and they WILL NOT accept a 1.44Mb disk. That shouldn't be a big problem, I just found a bunch of old antivirus update disks (dated 1994!) in a drawer, so I've reformatted the disks. That leaves me with a small stack of 720K floppies, ready for re-using. > >Is it possible to duplicate the operating system boot disk using standard > >hardware (i.e. a PC or my RISC PC)? > > Teledisk should be able to do it. The LIF Utilities should be able to > read and write the disks and tranfer the contents to a PC. Hmm, I've never used Teledisk, but I've got a copy of CopyIIPC6 on my 33MHz 386 DOS box. Rumour has it the 165xB analysers had a firmware modification that enabled them to write PC-formatted floppies. I may have to try that out when the analyser arrives. The problem then becomes a data decoding issue, rather than a data transfer issue. Now I just need a GPIB (IEEE-488) interface card (ISA or PCI bus) and a few GPIB cables. Anyone got some spares? Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Laugh ? I nearly paid the poll-tax From jkeys at houstoncomputermuseum.org Fri Jun 11 11:49:59 2004 From: jkeys at houstoncomputermuseum.org (jkeyshcm) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold References: Message-ID: <00bf01c44fd4$3b281480$23406b43@66067007> That sounds like a great idea and I would love to do it for a display at the museum and shows that we do. Can share the software and tips? Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Lewin" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Macs: Billions and Billions sold > On June 9 John Allain wrote: > > > > > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > > I can't throw them out, on conscience. > > At one MacWorld I attended one vendor had taken dozens of Pluses, SE's, > SE30's and Classics and built what can only be called a throne out of them, > with a Lisa for an ottoman - and ran the Pyro! screensaver on them all, then > photographed show-goers sitting on it and handed out the Polaroids. That > took dozens of mini-Macs but perhaps you could use the few you have to do > something equally silly - run the Energizer Bunny, network version. Hook 'em > together with PhoneNet, install the init on them all and the "Start Wabbit" > application on one, and let it rip. Bunny marches across one screen, then > the next, then the next and around and around. I have the software if you > want it. Sort of a deranged kinetic art form... > > Seth Lewin > > From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Fri Jun 11 12:31:36 2004 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: VME 6U Powered Chassis Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B55847806553356@exchange.olf.com> Hi, Does anyone have a small (3-slots to 7-slots) VME powered-chassis? I am looking for a 6U-based chassis to complement my Ultra-2 Sun workstation. Thanks... Ram (c) 2004 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From cb at mythtech.net Fri Jun 11 12:41:06 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Any MacIvory boards from Symbolics? Was: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. Message-ID: >Good question -- does the Mac Classic have any NuBus slots? I'd like to >snag one of the Symbolics MacIvory lisp machine cards to run on a Mac. The Classic does not have any expansion slots at all. I think the smallest Mac you can get that supports NuBus would be the IIsi (with a PDS to NuBus adaptor). But that doesn't have a built in screen. None of the All In One macs supported NuBus (at least not directly, I believe I read somewhere that the SE/30 could use the IIsi adaptor card, but even if it could, you woudn't be able to close the case with it installed). Did the MacIvory card come in another other format? LC PDS maybe? A number of AIO macs have LC PDS slots. -chris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 11 13:33:11 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold In-Reply-To: <00bf01c44fd4$3b281480$23406b43@66067007> References: <00bf01c44fd4$3b281480$23406b43@66067007> Message-ID: <1086978790.15873.439.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 16:49, jkeyshcm wrote: > > Bunny marches across one screen, then > > the next, then the next and around and around. I have the software if you > > want it. Sort of a deranged kinetic art form... > That sounds like a great idea and I would love to do it for a display at the > museum and shows that we do. Can share the software and tips? Thanks ditto. We were thinking along similar lines at the Bletchley museum, probably using Acorn BBC hardware and Microvitec Cub monitors as they're so easy to come by and would not be treading on the toes of anyone who might put them to better use. At the very least a scrolling message would be nice. Macs are another possible candidate (and a bit lighter for wall mounting). Again, the hardware's very easy to come by. The Acorn solution has the benefit of being colour, and the Cub displays give a larger visible area. All of which leads to the question... what network-aware scrolling software has been written and for what platforms? Presumably there are two approaches: 1) Each machine on the network needs to know the entire "message" and just maps the relevant bit of it onto its own display, according to commands send from a machine designated as the master 2) Again one machine acts as the master, but passes display frames down the network to each of the other machines, which they then display. The former uses more resources on each machine, the latter is just network-intensive. Hmm... cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 11 14:14:29 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040611114627.B8002@newshell.lmi.net> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Hmm, my pondering about reading raw data from floppies got me thinking. > . . . > The information I have gives the makeup of each of the gap types in > terms of bit patterns, counts, what clock transitions are missing for > MFM formats etc. your description (quoted only in part) left out the address marks. Hopefully those ARE included. > Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM > recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Or is it > dependant on the controller chip being used? The simple answer to your question is sort of YES, they are intended to be compatible. But,... You are looking at a format structure that was developed by IBM (LONG before the PC). "FM" and "MFM" are encoding names, but don't include the track layout of the format. The FDC chips support those IBM "3740" formats, with some quirks. But there do exist FM and MFM formats, not supported by those chips, that have "standard" FM or MFM encoding, but do NOT have the same track structure. For example Amiga is MFM, but has almost no track layout structure, since the Amiga reads and writes an entire track, and then parses sectors from that in memory. Amongst the quirks are differences in gap lengths, and different address marks. Because of that, for example, NEC FDC chips (765) sometimes have trouble reading some formats, such as some TRS80 model III, because the WD 179x chip that wrote them used an index gap that was shorter than the NEC chip can handle (can sometimes be solved by not letting the NEC chip see the index pulse). And, the TRS80 (1771) TRS-DOS 2.x uses some data address marks that the 179x can not create. Thus, the model 3 can not create a disk that model 1 TRS-DOS can read. (that was the seminal factor that led to the creation of LDOS) And, the WD chips are capable of IGNORING certain fields in the sector header, but the NEC chip can not ignore them. Because of that, Kaypro DS (among others) diskettes can not be read through any manipulation of the BIOS (INT13h), and require some direct programming of NEC FDC chip to tell it what INCORRECT value to be looking for in the head number field of the sector headers of the second side. So, YES, they are standardized in their structures, making it possible to write programs such as XenoCopy. But, NO, they do not always adhere well to the "standard" -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 11 14:17:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: HP logic analyser questions In-Reply-To: <31a077bd4c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040611151732.008945c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:08 PM 6/11/04 +0100, you wrote: >In message <3.0.6.32.20040611065729.0085c100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >> I strongly suspect it will require 720k disks. Most of the HP disk >> drives do and they WILL NOT accept a 1.44Mb disk. > >That shouldn't be a big problem, I just found a bunch of old antivirus update >disks (dated 1994!) in a drawer, so I've reformatted the disks. That leaves >me with a small stack of 720K floppies, ready for re-using. > >> >Is it possible to duplicate the operating system boot disk using standard >> >hardware (i.e. a PC or my RISC PC)? >> >> Teledisk should be able to do it. The LIF Utilities should be able to >> read and write the disks and tranfer the contents to a PC. > >Hmm, I've never used Teledisk, but I've got a copy of CopyIIPC6 on my 33MHz >386 DOS box. Rumour has it the 165xB analysers had a firmware modification >that enabled them to write PC-formatted floppies. I may have to try that out >when the analyser arrives. The problem then becomes a data decoding issue, >rather than a data transfer issue. >Now I just need a GPIB (IEEE-488) interface card (ISA or PCI bus) and a few >GPIB cables. Anyone got some spares? yeap. Picked up a NI GPIB-AT card and some cables on a scrounging trip this morning. Do you want to pay shipping from Florida? (trying to type with one hand while a parrot and a macaw roost in the other) Joe > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Laugh ? I nearly paid the poll-tax > From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:05:43 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 In-Reply-To: <200406111614.MAA08419@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040611200543.84547.qmail@web51809.mail.yahoo.com> It is just an ordinary vax6520 with one vector processor for each of the two "marial" CPU boards. Read your "vax architecture reference manual" (1990 version). vax, 3900 --- der Mouse wrote: > > Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 > > > This was on the last list of items I wanted to get > rid of but no one > > seemed to want it. > > But what _is_ it? How physically big is it? Where > is it now? > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E > E8 B3 27 4B __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 15:10:23 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: SCSI cable In-Reply-To: <20040611164037.AA45396850E@demolition.dls.net> Message-ID: <20040611201023.54977.qmail@web51806.mail.yahoo.com> --- fire@dls.net wrote: > VaX enthusiasts, > > I finally managed to get QBus SCSI card for my > MicroVax II thanks to Ebay. > It appears like it will fit in fine. It says KZQSA It seems that KZQSA does not do MSCP thus it is not bootable. > M5976-SA on the side. It has two Centronix-50 Female > connectors on it. Question is what is easiest way to > connect this to internal full-height DEC SCSI drive > with standard 50-pin connector. Get a f-f gender > connector and a cable with Centronix-50 F connector > on one end and ribbon with internal connectors along > it, and terminator at end? > > I cannot recall what model DEC drive this is, but I > thought it was 4GB. How do I find DEC Drive model? I > see numbers 74046725-0 A01 GM on side rail, > 70-2988501 on top of drive, Model DSP5400S Rev > RH12E-CY A01 on back of rail, and another label on > the back of drive reading KB34426075 R-75. Board > says 54-21265-06 A05 and ZG40516250 and 74P6 and > Side 2 5021264-06 A01 > > I used to like programming in C and Fortran on this > machine and the drive died a few years ago. I was > hoping to load VMS on to the new big disk and have > lots of space to play around in. > > Thanks for your assistance, > > Bradley Slavik __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 11 15:26:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: HP logic analyser questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040611151732.008945c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > (trying to type with one hand while a parrot and a macaw roost in the > other) Dinner? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 11 15:34:28 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "floppy low level format question" (Jun 11, 14:44) References: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 11, 14:44, Jules Richardson wrote: > > The information I have gives the makeup of each of the gap types in > terms of bit patterns, counts, what clock transitions are missing for > MFM formats etc. > > Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM > recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Or is it > dependant on the controller chip being used? So long as it's FM/MFM it's pretty much the same for any controller -- otherwise disks wouldn't be so interchangable :-) If you want an external floppy, why go to a lot of effort when all you need is one of the old cards that had an external connector? It's normally a 37-pin D-connector, with a few pins used to supply the power. Of course they're ISA cards, so you'd need a machine with ISA slots, but your reference to "ISA bus hang-ups" implies you have that. You also need to be able to set the card to be the second floppy controller (but most of the ones with external connectors have that capability) or disable the on-board floppy controller (if there is one -- but most older boards can do that too). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 11 15:50:50 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question References: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <16586.6954.820425.158033@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Pete" == Pete Turnbull writes: Pete> On Jun 11, 14:44, Jules Richardson wrote: >> The information I have gives the makeup of each of the gap types >> in terms of bit patterns, counts, what clock transitions are >> missing for MFM formats etc. >> >> Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or >> FM recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Or is it >> dependant on the controller chip being used? Pete> So long as it's FM/MFM it's pretty much the same for any Pete> controller -- otherwise disks wouldn't be so interchangable :-) I'm not sure about all the context of this question anymore, but... The number of tracks may be fixed; the number and size of sectors is not. Standard PC floppies have 9 sectors per track, but RX50 floppies have 10. You can read and write RX50s on a PC, but it's not a simple matter. (I found out, long ago, when I wrote a RSTS file interchange program for Linux and DOS.) paul From shirker at mooli.org.uk Fri Jun 11 17:06:18 2004 From: shirker at mooli.org.uk (Shirker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040610162812.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040610162812.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: [Amiga video connector] > But, do you have a source for the Dsomething-23 connector > for making that cable? If anyone is trying to find these, I do some work for an electronics store which has a stock of them. Ed. From CCTalk at catcorner.org Fri Jun 11 17:18:54 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: HP Boards available Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435B22@mail.catcorner.org> I hope these are on topic. They all seem to be about 20 years old. I can't find any copyright. I have the following HP manufactured boards. 93799A (HS BUF INT) (I have 5 of these) 69731B (Digital Output Board) (I have 2 of these) 13037 (INTF) 12979(I/O) buffer Anybody need and/or want any of these? Make an offer (I'm a realist, I just don't want to see these go for scrap). Shipping would be from 07848 (New Jersey USA). Kelly From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 11 17:34:57 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <004501c44f39$47aa9bb0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini > Sent: 10 June 2004 23:22 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK > > The naming convention should be obvious: the first one is: > a KA42-B, > firmware version V015 (displays as V1.5) part number > 23-088E8-00 (should be a sticker on the EPROM) > > Where a machine has two or more EPROMs the part number should > distinguish which is which. I'm back at home now so with the EPROM reader/burner I can hopefully get a chance to scoop out the ROMs of the remaining VAXen in the back of the car. Alister picked up 3 this afternoon so there's maybe 8 left plus the 2 model 20s I'm keeping. -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jun 11 17:36:39 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: <10406102013.ZM25879@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull > Sent: 10 June 2004 20:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK > > :-) Be careful; ones I've seen that look like parallel port > connecitons need a special card with the voltage regulators > on them (I've got an ALL-02 like that). Fortunately this IS a parallel port job and the host software for it is still available from the manufacturer's website. It's an MQP Pin-Master 48 from www.mqp.com. Cheers -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 11 17:52:36 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <20040611154231.U14935@newshell.lmi.net> On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > So long as it's FM/MFM it's pretty much the same for any controller -- > otherwise disks wouldn't be so interchangable :-) With a few quirks and a few exceptions, such as Amiga, which is MFM, but is NOT an "IBM 3740"/"WD" style sector. > If you want an external floppy, why go to a lot of effort when all you > need is one of the old cards that had an external connector? It's > normally a 37-pin D-connector, with a few pins used to supply the > power. Of course they're ISA cards, so you'd need a machine with ISA > slots, but your reference to "ISA bus hang-ups" implies you have that. Some have power on the DC37, some don't. The IBM 5150 FDC did NOT supply power on the external floppy connector. When IBM sold an external 3.5" 720K drive for it, there was a second cable to go through a hole in the back and connect to the power supply > You also need to be able to set the card to be the second floppy > controller (but most of the ones with external connectors have that > capability) or disable the on-board floppy controller (if there is one > -- but most older boards can do that too). or just cable the existing controller to an external connector. IBM had an adapter for AT's and one for PS/2's for that. There was once a serial external "PC 5.25 drive" for Macintosh! It was actually a floppy drive and an AMPRO littleboard in a case with serial port connection. When coupled to a Mac, and running its software, it could read PC and some CP/M diskettes. Just like any other computer connected to the serial port. But Mac users would NOT buy a PC compatible computer for doing their file transfers, so it was sold as being a "smart disk drive" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 11 17:56:12 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: <20040610162812.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3106.65.123.179.143.1086994572.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Contact Gateway Electronics on Page Avenue in St. Louis, MO. They have DB23 Male and female (used for the disk drives too) and they stock the plastic hoods. I think they're about $1-2 each. They have a webpage, and ISTR they advertised in pop electronics and nuts & volts. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > [Amiga video connector] >> But, do you have a source for the Dsomething-23 connector >> for making that cable? > > If anyone is trying to find these, I do some work for an electronics store > which has a stock of them. > > Ed. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 17:34:46 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040611031302.GD14301@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 11, 4 03:13:02 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 12:05:55AM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > > > > _NOW_ do you know why I like to have schemaitcs to everything :-). > > Commodore was one of the last home computer companies to make schematics > available. The A500/A2000 tech reference has the schematics, and even Indeed. I bought my A500 (the only Amiga I own, I think) at a charity shop (what you'd call a thrift store) and it came with the user manual. In the back was a somewhat poorly-printed schematic. The hardware technical manual I have (another charity shop purchase...) contains pinouts of all the custom chips, but no complete schematics. Not a major pronlem, though. However, I have never seen official schematics for the A520 modulator (probably more important than the CPU board schematics for this problem), and I can't remember if they were easily available for the monitor (or, idndeed, if I have them, whioch is not the same thing at all!) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 17:36:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: from "George Leo Rachor Jr." at Jun 10, 4 08:37:41 pm Message-ID: > > Never been in that environment but try: > > BYE I've never used it either, but if BYE doesn't work, try SYSTEM Incidentally, is CMT 'Corvallis Micro Technologies', better known for HP calculator add-ons? -tony > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with BASIC > > module, > > > > All the language that left in my brain is > > > > A=1 > > B=1 > > C=A+B > > PRINT C > > > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic environment. > > EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 17:42:06 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 10, 4 11:58:06 pm Message-ID: > > I've long since given up trying to find the right cable for things like > > this. To be honest it's quicker to make one. And then I hopefully keep it > > with whatever device it goes with... > > It would have been quicker but I had a very limited time to get everything > together and would've taken me as much time just to find all the parts and > tools. I can understand not having the parts to hand (I'd have to really hunt for a DG23 connector, in fact I'd probably take cutting tools to a DB shell...), but not being able to find a soldering iron, wire strippers, and a screwdriver. Now that _is_ unbelievable! And before you say 'but I'm a software person', let me point out that I'm not a programmer, but still know where K&R, the C compiler, Z80 and 6502 assembler reference manuals, the assembler and compiler disks for many of my 8 bit machines, etc, etc are... > > One of these days I'll be organized. I hope not!. You'll never find anything then -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 18:01:19 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <1086949801.15873.54.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 11, 4 10:30:01 am Message-ID: > Plus I'm not sure how the raw data stream is clocked (rather, I have the > info here, I just can't remember without going to look it up). If the > floppy drive just starts spewing out raw data on a read but the clock is > handled at the host side then I might have problems there... That's exactly what happens. Well, some 8" drives have single-density data separators built-in (this is the circuit which decodes the raw bitstream from the head amplifier into clock and data pulses), but don't bet on it, and don't expect it to work for double-density (MFM) data. And I've never seen a 5.25" or 3.5" drive with a data separator built it. I suppose what you really want is the equivalent of a the Catweasel (a device which records the raw data stream from the read amplifier and lets software figure out what it means) with enough buffer memory to hold 1 track of data, and an Unusable Serial Botch interface.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 18:05:32 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 11, 4 02:44:47 pm Message-ID: > The information I have gives the makeup of each of the gap types in > terms of bit patterns, counts, what clock transitions are missing for > MFM formats etc. > > Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM > recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Or is it > dependant on the controller chip being used? It's sort-of a standard for standard controllers (the sort-of because the WD1771, for example, could read/write a couple of data markers that no later controller could write -- and the TRS-80 Model 1 used one of them...). That's why you can read a disk formated on an HP9114 (WD2797 controller IIRC) on a PC (Intel 8272 controller). However. it's not standard on non-stnadard controllers, meaning DEC M2FM (RX02), any of the GCR ones (Apple ][, older Macs, Commodore Pet/C64 drives ,etc). -tony From jkeys at houstoncomputermuseum.org Fri Jun 11 13:20:54 2004 From: jkeys at houstoncomputermuseum.org (jkeyshcm) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Fw: Macs: Billions and Billions sold Message-ID: <00e001c44fe0$d6604b00$23406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "jkeyshcm" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 11:49 AM Subject: Re: Macs: Billions and Billions sold That sounds like a great idea and I would love to do it for a display at the museum and shows that we do. Can share the software and tips? Thanks > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Seth Lewin" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:09 PM > Subject: Re: Macs: Billions and Billions sold > > > > On June 9 John Allain wrote: > > > > > > > > > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > > > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > > > I can't throw them out, on conscience. > > > > At one MacWorld I attended one vendor had taken dozens of Pluses, SE's, > > SE30's and Classics and built what can only be called a throne out of > them, > > with a Lisa for an ottoman - and ran the Pyro! screensaver on them all, > then > > photographed show-goers sitting on it and handed out the Polaroids. That > > took dozens of mini-Macs but perhaps you could use the few you have to do > > something equally silly - run the Energizer Bunny, network version. Hook > 'em > > together with PhoneNet, install the init on them all and the "Start > Wabbit" > > application on one, and let it rip. Bunny marches across one screen, then > > the next, then the next and around and around. I have the software if you > > want it. Sort of a deranged kinetic art form... > > > > Seth Lewin > > > > > From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Jun 11 13:56:25 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server><1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003101c44fe5$cdd35220$6401a8c0@hal9000> I've been looking into this for some time. The parallel port lacks the "through-put" to take the data on and off the floppy as serial data (as it comes off the drive "raw") but if you added some hardware (like a Western Digital FD controller) it will separate the data and convert it to "parallel" data which the parallel port can support. The inverse is also true (parallel data back to serial to fed the drive). The FDC can handle the Single density issue. Processing power of the computer is not an issue unless you have a painfully slow machine. I wish I had more time to work on this project. Anyone have the Kilobaud article were someone connected a FDD to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:55 PM Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the > > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the > > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a > > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly > > swapped between machines. > > MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port > floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of > other models. > From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 11 15:47:55 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston Message-ID: <200406112047.QAA6799740@shell.TheWorld.com> >I live less than an hour from boston, I talked with Fred last night and >unless somebody beats me to it, I will pick up everything from Fred. Great... I had talked with him about it, but was not sure I would be able to do it in a timely fashion, what with moving my other condo contents... I'm glad someone could commit to it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From sales at billottiautosales.com Fri Jun 11 16:14:24 2004 From: sales at billottiautosales.com (Billotti Auto Sales) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Teletype 33-TU in Kansas City at surplus exchange Message-ID: I have one of these and was wondering how much you sold it for. I would appreciate this information. Thanks, Bill B From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 11 18:58:34 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in stlouis Message-ID: <001001c45010$01fad0d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I had an opportunity to visit my absolute favorite spot in St. Louis for old puter stuff. It's definitely not open to the public and the opportunity came to get in today so I went. I found some stuff that may well be of listmember interest. First. Pallets and Pallets of DEC disk drives... RD52, RD53, RD54, etc. I even found a case (about 8 drives) that were RD54's that were new or refurbed and STILL SEALED in antistatic bags. There were several mounting trays and rails for these drives, sealed in bags too. There was also some other drives that were RZxx, I don't remember the xx part, and they looked just like RD53's do. Two DEC LA120s (very yellowed) A pallet of IBM selectrics. A really nice microvax cabinet, but it had been stripped of all cards. A bunch of 1/2 mag tapes, 6250bpi , still in original seal. A few HP line printers... don't remember the model... but they are pretty big. Maybe 4 feet tall, about 8 buttons on the top. Looked to be in good condition. Freestanding units built inside a cabinet with wheels. I have seen and sold these before but I'm drawing a blank on the model. I am guessing around 1987 era? This model is known as a tank/workhorse. An odd dec item I've never seen... it was something like TA90Z... I figure it was a tape drive. Pretty huge. But on the front through the cabinet cutout were the buttons I'm familiar with on 14" drives - run, stop, fault, drive ID plug, etc. And in the front was a recess where a removable hand-held keypad unit sat. This hand held unit had like 40 or so buttons on it, almost looked like a diagnostic keypad or something. Odd. There was a nice dec rack with something in it that looked like a disk drive... HSC... something. Didn't get too close of a look. A few HP lowboy cabinets, and some 7980S tape drives. Several microfiche readers that looked in good shape. I spent a lot of time talking to the owner, and sucessfully built a rapport. I'm welcome to come back any time, and they'll let me just walk through. They also agreed to call me when stuff comes in that may be of interest so I can have a looksee before it's torn apart. The "big iron" stuff listed above they will let go very cheap. However, the RDxx drives they know get some amount of money on ebay, so those they will not let go dirt cheap. If anyone is interested in any of this, let me know. They will be moving buildings before too long and want to get rid of as much as possible so they don't have to move as much. That means their motivated to get rid of the heavy stuff cheap. I'm also curious just what that TA90Z thing was. Jay From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 11 19:35:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Message-ID: <200406120035.RAA06245@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I doubt one can fetch data with most PC's from the parallel port fast enough to keep from being overrun, even on a byte wise basis. That is why I've suggest the DSP. May of these can run fast enough to do it on a BIT wise basis and require no external hardware, other than buffers. Dwight >From: "Steven Canning" > >I've been looking into this for some time. The parallel port lacks the >"through-put" to take the data on and off the floppy as serial data (as it >comes off the drive "raw") but if you added some hardware (like a Western >Digital FD controller) it will separate the data and convert it to >"parallel" data which the parallel port can support. The inverse is also >true (parallel data back to serial to fed the drive). The FDC can handle the >Single density issue. Processing power of the computer is not an issue >unless you have a painfully slow machine. I wish I had more time to work on >this project. Anyone have the Kilobaud article were someone connected a FDD >to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? > >Best regards, Steven > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Fred Cisin" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:55 PM >Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it > > >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the >> > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the >> > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a >> > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly >> > swapped between machines. >> >> MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port >> floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of >> other models. >> > > > From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 11 19:41:11 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer In-Reply-To: <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> References: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net> <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <1087000870.2239.22.camel@dhcp-250079.mobile.uci.edu> Don't forget that the word "computer" had a much broader and looser meaning before the early 1960's. Going *strictly* by the odd name, it's likely to be more than some gunnery or simulation analog machine, but it's entirely possible it's highly specialized and not a "computer" as many know them today. It's at least partially digital, but the patch panels strongly suggest it may not be stored-program. From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 11 19:45:29 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Sandia and Los Alamos Auction In-Reply-To: <40C83E02.26329.291D0C2C@localhost> References: <40C74487.8010201@theriver.com> <40C83E02.26329.291D0C2C@localhost> Message-ID: <1087001129.2239.27.camel@dhcp-250079.mobile.uci.edu> On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 10:54, Stan Sieler wrote: > > http://www.bentleysauction.com/pictures/albuquerque/06-12-04%20Sandia,%20LANL/pages/MVC-016S_JPG.htm > They said, repeatedly, that they'd > package up anything I won, but that I'd have to arrange for pickup. > I couldn't get across to them that I wanted *them* to drop the > package in the mail/UPS/whatever. It seems like they're willing to > do 90% of what's necessary for off-site buyers, but.....?? That's not how they work. I haven't been, but it's a madhouse, with a lot of *highly specialized* auction buyers, who have their names written on pre-taped sheets, and they rapidly heel-toe-it (running disallowed) the *instant* the site opens and SLAP! their name on pallets they want. YOu generally have to buy an entire pallet to get what you want. YOu must remove the stuff yourself immediately. It's not a store, it's a step away from the dump for them. It's just a pile of stuff you load in your truck. From thompson at new.rr.com Fri Jun 11 20:03:48 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: SCSI cable In-Reply-To: <20040611164037.AA45396850E@demolition.dls.net> References: <200406111603.i5BG3khe058121@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040611164037.AA45396850E@demolition.dls.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 2004 fire@dls.net wrote: > I cannot recall what model DEC drive this is, but I thought it was 4GB. > How do I find DEC Drive model? I see numbers 74046725-0 A01 GM on side > rail, 70-2988501 on top of drive, Model DSP5400S Rev RH12E-CY A01 on > back of rail, and another label on the back of drive reading KB34426075 > R-75. Board says 54-21265-06 A05 and ZG40516250 and 74P6 and Side 2 > 5021264-06 A01 Searching on google for DSP5400S does imply that it is a 4GB disk, tho I thought the DSP line was more intended for Intel hardware. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 10 21:44:03 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040611024403.GB14301@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 10, 2004 at 02:07:52PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Deano Calver wrote: > > > Your using an Amiga 1000. Its doesn't have its boot software (called > > Kickstart) in ROM like every Amiga, so you need a Kickstart disk. I > > originally typed boot firmware but then realised that made no sense in > > this case :-) > > > > Amiga 1000 also has a different chipset that misses a few graphics modes. > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? No... the A1000 was the original model... the A500 was marketed as a one piece "stripped down model", and the A2000 was the big boy. The reason the A1000 needs a Kickstart disk is because the ROMs weren't ready in 1985. By the time the A500 and A2000 came out a couple of years later, C= _tried_ to get A1000 owners to upgrade to A2000s with two or three sets of large incentives, but lots of people wouldn't switch. And it's not just them... I'm supposed to know that a Mac IIci is faster than a IIsi? Doesn't 's' come after 'c' in the alphabet? And how do you rank, based on name alone, a IIILC and a IIfx? I'm sure lots of us could come up with naming schemes that are bizarre today. > They certainly were insane, weren't they? Well... that's a different matter... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Jun-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -90.5 F (-68.0 C) Windchill -136.8 F (-93.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.1 kts Grid 062 Barometer 674.1 mb (10848. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 9 19:22:44 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:26 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7A7B4.2010901@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: > Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte > explanation helps a lot. I'm still confused about > the multiplier. > > The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of > 2MB, so does that mean that these chips are 256Kx1? Exactly! From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 9 18:44:31 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions Message-ID: >1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing >but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever >happened later and whatever they make now. No, some models spoke postscript, some spoke quickdraw. Many spoke postscript and other languages (like Diablo, ESC-P, PCL). In fact the original Laserwriter speaks both Postscript and Diablo 630. Apple has a listing of the printers they made, and what languages they spoke. >2. Were there any LaserWriters made with duplex printing capability? If >so, what's the earliest duplex LaserWriter? Yes, and I'm not sure what the earliest one was (I'm also not sure which models supported duplex. Probably the Pro series and the 12/600, 16/600, 8500 series... I know at least the 12/640 rates a duplex page speed, but I believe others besides it also had a duplex option) >3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on >serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones >to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial >port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing >but old enough to have a serial port? Actually, most of them up thru the end have serial. The problem is, the serial port doubles as the localtalk port, and it may or may not have been configurable for connection to a PC. As far as TRUE serial (RS-232/422 in the form of a DB25 or DE9), I think the Pro 810 may have been the last to carry that AND talk postscript. I don't know for sure if there is a duplex option for it or not. Later printers may very well also support PC serial via the Localtalk connector (which IIRC is really a RS422 with additional smarts to handle the localtalk protocol) >4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple >proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? Ones that had true serial were standard 232 and/or 422 ports in a DB25 package (there may also have been DE9 connectors, I don't remember for sure). So no adaptor should be needed. For those that handled serial via the mini din 8 connector's localtalk port, you would just need a mini-din 8 to D connector of your choice. Those should be 422 ports... but I can't say for sure that all of them were usable as regular serial. Some may have been localtalk only (and others may have done serial but weren't configurable, so you had to be able to know what it expected to have) Hope some of that is helpful. -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:33:04 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jun 9, 4 03:55:49 pm Message-ID: > > The _chips_ are 256K by 1 bit. You feed an 18 bit address into Confusing correction (for the real hardware hackers here). These DRAMs take the address in 2 halves of 9 bits each. You give the chip 9 bits of the address, then the other 9 bits, and finally read/write 1 bit of data. > one chip and you get one data bit out. 9 chips form a bank with > 8 data bits plus a parity bit. Correct -tony From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 11 19:46:11 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: HP logic analyser questions In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040611151732.008945c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040611204611.00897aa0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:26 PM 6/11/04 -0700, Sellam wrote: >On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > >> (trying to type with one hand while a parrot and a macaw roost in the >> other) > >Dinner? Only to each other! Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 11 19:48:32 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040611204832.008ff6a0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:36 PM 6/11/04 +0100, you wrote: >> >> Never been in that environment but try: >> >> BYE > >I've never used it either, but if BYE doesn't work, try SYSTEM > >Incidentally, is CMT 'Corvallis Micro Technologies', better known for HP >calculator add-ons? Yeap, and the MC-II had an optional very good HP-41 emulator ROM. IIRC I also have a C language ROM for it. Joe From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 9 19:13:40 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C7A7B4.2010901@mdrconsult.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? IOW, if they turn out >>to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the Amiga A2091, will that >>be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? > > > Most DRAM chips are 1 bit wide. A 256K DRAM stores 256K _bits_ (not bytes > or words), arranged as 262144 locations of 1 bit each. 8 such chips store > 256K btes, 256K locations of 8 bits each (bit 0 is stored in the > locations of one of the chips, bit 1 in another chip, and so on). 9 chips > were used to store a byte + a parity bit (very common on PCs) > > > 16 of them, used conventionally (which I assume the A2091 does) would > store 512K bytes or 256K 16-bit words. It would be a 0.5M upgrade I guess So I talked to the memory guy here, and he says that the MT part number is bogus. He says that there was a company doing counterfeits in the late 80s and these are some of them. Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte explanation helps a lot. I'm still confused about the multiplier. The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of 2MB, so does that mean that these chips are 256Kx1? Doc From cb at mythtech.net Thu Jun 10 18:31:56 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. Message-ID: >None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts >will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys >me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. The one near me had the same policy. They would refuse them, and if they were left when the place was closed, they would chuck the CPU in the dumpster and sell whatever parts and software was left. Alas, the place is now closed, so I can't dive there any more (the building owner felt a Salvation Army store wasn't the right type of "image" for the shopping district it was in... humm... I guess it stood out to much against the gas station, car dealership, porn movie rental place/subway sandwich shop (yes, both in one store... get your porn and a snack at the same time), Hooters and swamp land. Go figure. -chris From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 9 21:31:19 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 12:28:27PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > So, more relevant to me, is the board itself worth anything outside > the DRAMs? I have a friend doing a 68000 SBC project who could use > some, and I think some of the rest would look fabulous on my Amiga > 2000's A2091 board. So those DRAMS are 44256s? That's what the A2091 takes, 256Kx4. Speed is not a problem - 150ns is fast enough, but ISTR 120ns was more commonly available by the time 1Mbit chips were ordinary, and I think they were available as fast as 80ns in DIP packages. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Jun-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.5 F (-67.5 C) Windchill -129.5 F (-89.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 059 Barometer 665.8 mb (11168. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:31:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7605A.80603@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 9, 4 02:09:14 pm Message-ID: > So are these 256K per bank, or 256K per chip? IOW, if they turn out > to be compatible and I install 16 of them on the Amiga A2091, will that > be a 2MB or 0.25MB upgrade? Most DRAM chips are 1 bit wide. A 256K DRAM stores 256K _bits_ (not bytes or words), arranged as 262144 locations of 1 bit each. 8 such chips store 256K btes, 256K locations of 8 bits each (bit 0 is stored in the locations of one of the chips, bit 1 in another chip, and so on). 9 chips were used to store a byte + a parity bit (very common on PCs) 16 of them, used conventionally (which I assume the A2091 does) would store 512K bytes or 256K 16-bit words. It would be a 0.5M upgrade I guess -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 9 12:13:37 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board References: <11371436.1086798359035.JavaMail.root@ernie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <40C748BB.2080506@mdrconsult.com> <20040610023119.GE3296@bos7.spole.gov> <40C7D352.7020403@mdrconsult.com> <20040610033727.GA21946@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <002501c44e45$1a798ce0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 11:37 PM Subject: Re: Cheetah Cub board > On Wed, Jun 09, 2004 at 10:19:46PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > > I looked in my junk box and found a couple of PS/2 graphics boards > > with the ROMs missing and one burnt up. Each had 8 TI TMS44C256-12N > > DIPs, which are now running nicely on the A2091. > > Perfect. > > > As soon as I finish cooking and eating dinner, I'm gonna see if it > > juked up the abysmal disk I/O a little. > > I'm sure it will help loads. The A2091 isn't a screamer of a > controller, but DMA to Zorro-II FAST RAM should be quite noticable. > > > The whole list ganged up to teach me some memory basics. :) > > So I saw. :-) > > -ethan > I found 2MB worth of 256x4 DRAM for my 2091 and it made a huge difference in loading times compared to the same board and drive with no ram at all. Best place to find it is on old ISA/VLB video cards where it can be found socketed for easy removal (and can always be put back in the video card if needed). From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Thu Jun 10 06:59:58 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer References: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer > Some time back on the vintage computer marketplace > (http://marketplace.vintage.org/), somebody listed a "dumpkopf 1" > computer, but only the most vague information was given about it. I > think there was some speculation here that it was maybe a hoax, and that > no information could be found about it on the internet. > > I accidentally stumbled upon the machine at this web site; I suspect > that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html > > It looks to be very interesting, perhaps significant, but certainly > inoperable. The web page has a number of very interesting pictures of > the computer, and says that the tubes have a 1954 date stamp on them. > > There are some large patch panels on the machine, so perhaps it wasn't a > general purpose programmable computer (in fact, the name implies the > machine isn't all that smart!) same computer, same site.What's frustrating about the site is that the guy has some cool stuff but his pics are low-res and small. With larger pics someone on here would probably be able to figure out exactly what he was offering for sale. It's been quite a few months since the original posting and a lot of the stuff is still for sale which leads me to think the prices are ridiculous and the guy is a pack rat and just doesn't want to sell anything. The old broadcast items are pretty interesting. bm From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 23:28:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Cheetah Cub board In-Reply-To: <40C7A7B4.2010901@mdrconsult.com> from "Doc Shipley" at Jun 9, 4 07:13:40 pm Message-ID: > Back to the DRAM nomenclature, the 1 bit vs 1 byte explanation helps > a lot. I'm still confused about the multiplier. > > The Amiga docs show 16 256Kx4 DRAMs for a total of 2MB, so does that > mean that these chips are 256Kx1? 256*4 DRAMs are what the numbers imply. 256K (262144) locations of 4 bits (1 nybble) each. So 2 of _those_ chips store 256K bytes, 16 of them store 8*256K bytes == 2 Mbytes The 256K *1 and 256K *4 chips have totally different pinouts (in fact I think the former is a 16 pin chip, the latter a 20 pin chip), you certainly can't interchange them. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 9 21:56:38 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> from "John Allain" at Jun 09, 2004 10:53:08 PM Message-ID: <200406100256.i5A2udgJ021670@onyx.spiritone.com> > OK I'm not talking about the burger. > > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > I can't throw them out, on conscience. > > John A. No, but I wouldn't mind hearing some good ideas that didn't involve turning them into an Aquarium. Though come to think of it, I do have a Mac SE case that I could do that with... Zane From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 10 07:47:44 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> <200406101929.11120.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00d501c44ee9$20185ab0$422d1941@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 8:29 PM Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > On Thursday 10 June 2004 07:10, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Doc Shipley" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM > > Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > > > > > Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience is what's insane. > > > > > > > > > Doc > > > > I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never > > touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver > > if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the > > architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of > > machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated > > put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even > > Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days. > > Then you must not have tried to set up an S/390. :) > > Pat > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > No I stick with the simple stuff like Amigas, Atari ST's, 8 bit Commodores, Apple IIgs, Timex, old PC's, 68k & PPC Macs, etc. Most of my problems come when trying to find drivers for oddball upgrades, figuring out where to get obsolete parts, or messing with Apple Unix configurations. Just like every other hobby you spend as much time researching as you do acquiring and using (at least for me anyway). TZ From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 11 20:20:43 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Message-ID: <3942822.1087003243880.JavaMail.root@skeeter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> actually don't need a DSP (digital signal processor). A CPLD or FPGA could do most (in some cases, all) of the entire logic required except for the buffering of track data. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Jun 11, 2004 8:35 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Hi I doubt one can fetch data with most PC's from the parallel port fast enough to keep from being overrun, even on a byte wise basis. That is why I've suggest the DSP. May of these can run fast enough to do it on a BIT wise basis and require no external hardware, other than buffers. Dwight >From: "Steven Canning" > >I've been looking into this for some time. The parallel port lacks the >"through-put" to take the data on and off the floppy as serial data (as it >comes off the drive "raw") but if you added some hardware (like a Western >Digital FD controller) it will separate the data and convert it to >"parallel" data which the parallel port can support. The inverse is also >true (parallel data back to serial to fed the drive). The FDC can handle the >Single density issue. Processing power of the computer is not an issue >unless you have a painfully slow machine. I wish I had more time to work on >this project. Anyone have the Kilobaud article were someone connected a FDD >to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? > >Best regards, Steven > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Fred Cisin" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:55 PM >Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it > > >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >> > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the >> > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the >> > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a >> > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly >> > swapped between machines. >> >> MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port >> floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of >> other models. >> > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 10 18:02:14 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK In-Reply-To: "Antonio Carlini" "RE: MicroVAX 3100-30s available in Cambridge, UK" (Jun 10, 23:21) References: <004501c44f39$47aa9bb0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <10406110002.ZM1555@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 23:21, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I've just checked and I already have these: > [list of EPROMs] > I do have other machines around that I could > (eventually) check and probably read the EPROMs > (once I check out the programmer - or image > them in the office). > > So who is going to be the repository holder? How about adding them to mine, at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 10 19:29:11 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> References: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> <00c801c44ee3$ea2e1d90$422d1941@game> Message-ID: <200406101929.11120.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 10 June 2004 07:10, Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Doc Shipley" > To: > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:48 PM > Subject: Re: Stupid Amiga Tricks > > > Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience is what's insane. > > > > > > Doc > > I never had too much of a problem setting machines up that I never > touched before, most have allot in common. Google is a big time saver > if you ever run into problems. If you start getting into the > architecture find a decent forum that caters to those kind of > machines. Having a manual is very helpful, and if you get frustrated > put the thing down and go do something else for a while. I guess even > Sellam is human like the rest of us and has bad days. Then you must not have tried to set up an S/390. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 10 17:15:48 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks References: <20040610145746.S83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16584.56724.156216.348448@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: Fred> So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying Fred> convention by giving the later model a lower model number Fred> The Ford model A came after the model T And the 11/730 came after the 11/750 which came after the 11/780. The 11/05 came after the 11/20, and the 11/04 came later than that... paul From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Fri Jun 11 20:31:36 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Deja-vu? Message-ID: Is it just me or are most of the last few messages repeats? Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From elmo at mminternet.com Fri Jun 11 20:32:55 2004 From: elmo at mminternet.com (elmo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Free in Socal: NCR systems Message-ID: <00cb01c4501d$2ffb0470$6aa8a8c0@junko> I have two matching NCR 3230 boxes available for pickup. They are 486/33's with three ISA slots, floppy, and one has a 170m drive. 16 and 32 megs memory. I believe they would support a 486/66 chip. They've very small POS-oriented boxes that look very slick. They were constructed for use as routers. I also three non-vintage PCs: A Dell P120 Minitower, fully equipped, reliable, speedy, a P3 dual-processor tower (defective cpu), and a clone Celeron 300 / Slot 1 system, status unknown. These are optionally available to whomever picks up the NCR units, otherwise they're going to recycling center. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 9 18:41:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: <0406092254.AA02808@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 9, 4 03:54:29 pm Message-ID: > > As an alternative to DEC LPS, one other possibility I'm considering for > a perfect PostScript printer would be an original Apple LaserWriter. I would avoid the very first Laserwriter. It uses a CX engine, which is very solid and well made, but getting toner cartridges for it is non-trivial. I use an Laserwriter II NT (SX engine). I'll make a few comments on that below. > But since I'm NULL in apples, I need some help. > > 1. Are all LaserWriters 100% pure PostScript printers, speaking nothing > but PS? I know the very original one was, but I'm not sure about whatever > happened later and whatever they make now. The LW II NT has a DIablo 630 emulation mode (!), selected by DIP switches. It's fairly useless. Apart from that, all it understands is Postscript. > 3. The original LaserWriter had a serial port. But given the assault on > serial ports coming from all directions, I don't expect the current ones > to have one, or do they? When was the last LaserWriter made with a serial The LW II NT has a real RS232 port on a DB25 connector. It also has Localtalk on the standard 8 pin miniDIN (this is technically a serial port, but probably not what you meant). There is no parallel port. > port? Was there ever a LaserWriter new enough to support duplex printing > but old enough to have a serial port? > > 4. Are LaserWriter serial ports standard EIA-232 DB25 or something Apple > proprietary? If the latter, what kind of adapter would I need to make? It is DB25, buit the pinout is a little odd (IIRC the ready signal is on pin 11, I can check the schematics if you end up with one). Wiring the cable took a few minutes. -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 11 20:41:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Message-ID: <200406120141.SAA06286@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steve Sure, but I have a DSP and I know how to program it. I've not done CPLD's or FPGA's. It is just a matter of what resources I have handy. I still think the DSP is a little more flexible and friendlier environment. Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >actually don't need a DSP (digital signal processor). A CPLD or FPGA could do most (in some cases, all) of the entire logic required except for the buffering of track data. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > > >-----Original Message----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >Sent: Jun 11, 2004 8:35 PM >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it > >Hi > I doubt one can fetch data with most PC's from the parallel >port fast enough to keep from being overrun, even on a byte >wise basis. That is why I've suggest the DSP. May of these can >run fast enough to do it on a BIT wise basis and >require no external hardware, other than buffers. >Dwight > >>From: "Steven Canning" >> >>I've been looking into this for some time. The parallel port lacks the >>"through-put" to take the data on and off the floppy as serial data (as it >>comes off the drive "raw") but if you added some hardware (like a Western >>Digital FD controller) it will separate the data and convert it to >>"parallel" data which the parallel port can support. The inverse is also >>true (parallel data back to serial to fed the drive). The FDC can handle the >>Single density issue. Processing power of the computer is not an issue >>unless you have a painfully slow machine. I wish I had more time to work on >>this project. Anyone have the Kilobaud article were someone connected a FDD >>to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? >> >>Best regards, Steven >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Fred Cisin" >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >>Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:55 PM >>Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it >> >> >>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the >>> > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the >>> > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a >>> > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly >>> > swapped between machines. >>> >>> MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port >>> floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of >>> other models. >>> >> >> >> > > > > From vax3900 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 11 20:55:01 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: How do you exit an BASIC environment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040612015501.78769.qmail@web51804.mail.yahoo.com> SYSTEM works. Thanks to everybody that pointed this out. vax, 3900 --- Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Never been in that environment but try: > > > > BYE > > I've never used it either, but if BYE doesn't work, > try SYSTEM > > Incidentally, is CMT 'Corvallis Micro Technologies', > better known for HP > calculator add-ons? > > -tony > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > > > > I got the "CMT MC-II 8088 cmos system" with > BASIC > > > module, > > > > > > > All the language that left in my brain is > > > > > > A=1 > > > B=1 > > > C=A+B > > > PRINT C > > > > > > Now the problem is how to exit the basic > environment. > > > EXIT or QUIT does not work. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! > Messenger. > > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ From jpl15 at panix.com Fri Jun 11 20:55:33 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer In-Reply-To: <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> References: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net> <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Brian Mahoney wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Battle" > > that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: > > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html > > And then there's this, a bit further on: http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page27.html But this individual is seriously deluded when it comes to pricing... if you look at some of his vintage audio gear, while quite a bit of it *is* certainly rare and desireable but c'mon: $3000 for a pair of Jensen G-600 triaxials? I don't theenk so... crummy UTC interstage transformers - $125 *each*?? Oh yeah... only 100 for the 'used' ones. I'll pass. So one can only imagine what the Dumbkopf is going for. [ Maybe *he* designed (and named) it....? ] Oohh... that's evil... Cheers John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 11 20:57:04 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Deja-vu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406120157.VAA11238@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Is it just me or are most of the last few messages repeats? It's not just you. Looking at the headers makes me think someone at blueyonder.co.uk is looping them back. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 10 17:06:09 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it In-Reply-To: <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1086905169.14884.21.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-10 at 21:55, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the > > data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the > > processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a > > bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly > > swapped between machines. > > MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port > floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of > other models. Good point. I don't know how much work is done in the interface for those though - quite possibly a microcontroller + some buffer memory. I also remember taking one of their parallel CDROM units apart a few years ago and they'd put black gloop on everything so that reverse engineering was impossible - shame, as I never did get it working with Linux on an old laptop and might have done so if I knew what it was doing... I'm not sure what sort of data rate can be shifted through a parallel port on a reasonably modern PC, so I don't know if it's even possible to do the whole lot in software. Would be nice though. cheers Jules From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 11 07:23:38 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 11:00:37AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 10:34, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > Not to forget the Sun SPARCstation 5, which came after the 10 and had the > > new style (gray/violet opposed to gray only) housing... > > Weren't both 10's and 20's actually SparcStation 3's? Damn confusing... SPARC 4s and SPARC5s were sun4ms with various amounts of Sbus slots IIRC, SPARC 20s and SPARC 10s are sun4ds. I wish I had some DIMMs for SPARC 10s... my main machine at home is a SPARC 5 w/256MB of 32MB DIMMs, but I have a SPARC 10 w/0MB of DRAM sitting in a corner. When I get home, I will own zero machines that can run Solaris X. I suppose, I'll have to look for a SPARC machine better than an U1/170. If anyone wants to "lose" a 64-bit SPARC machine next Feb, I'll probably want to upgrade. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Jun-2004 12:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -82 F (-63.3 C) Windchill -124.9 F (-87.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 039 Barometer 676.6 mb (10756 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Jun 11 21:11:56 2004 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040611024403.GB14301@bos7.spole.gov> (Ethan Dicks's message of "Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:44:03 +0000") References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> <20040611024403.GB14301@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406120211.i5C2Buxs080093@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > The reason the A1000 needs a Kickstart disk is because the ROMs weren't > ready in 1985. By the time the A500 and A2000 came out a couple of years > later, C= _tried_ to get A1000 owners to upgrade to A2000s with two or > three sets of large incentives, but lots of people wouldn't switch. That would be me. I tried to find the incentive to upgrade from an A1000 to an A2000, but as I'd already put a Starboard with 2MB and SCSI on the thing and couldn't use it on the A2000 (or the A500 with its flipped-twice SOTS connector) it really didn't look like a good deal: the stock A2000 wasn't that much more oomphy than the A1000 except that it had a reasonable expansion bus inside the box and provision for upgrading the processor. Later (1991 or so) there was the A3000 upgrade, where you could get a discount of a few hundred bucks for your A1000 serial number. That almost looked like a good deal. Except that at HT Electronics, the staff was more interested in selling me an A1000 serial number than in selling me the A3000 upgrade -- the guy lost interest and wandered off when I said that I had an A1000 serial number by way of owning an A1000. That was what really told me, "You fool! The Amiga is DEAD!" -Frank McConnell From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 10 17:50:04 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: HP serial card In-Reply-To: "Stan Sieler" "Re: HP serial card" (Jun 10, 10:05) References: <40C83287.3211.28F032E5@localhost> Message-ID: <10406102350.ZM479@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 10, 10:05, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > brown-painted panel, labelled "RS-232-C", over a DB25S, on the other. > > Part number 02670-60068. > > > > I've no idea what it's off, and no way to test it; yours for the price > > of postage if you can use it. > > My guess is that it's for an HP 267x printer/printing-terminal, > but I'm not sure. (No, I don't need one :) Thanks :-) Well, I certainly don't need it, so if not claimed by Monday night, it will be used to enrich the local environment (Tuesday is bin day). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From nerdware at ctgonline.org Thu Jun 10 16:23:08 2004 From: nerdware at ctgonline.org (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <40C88AEC.19459.1A1B7AD@localhost> > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Deano Calver wrote: > > So Commodore thought they could be successful at defying convention by > giving the stripped down model a higher model number? > One other thing the Amiga featured from Day One was multitasking, even on the base 256k model. Apple didn't offer that until way later. Plus, the built-in sound chips were way beyond anything Apple was offering at the time. Remembering reading a cool article back in the day -- Microsoft had a press conference about something, and Gates was spouting off about multitasking. He said that there was no way to multitask in anything under 8mb of ram. A reporter in the back raised his hand and asked if Bill was aware that his own AmigaBasic would multitask on a 256k Amiga 1000..... Gates pretended he didn't hear and moved to the next question. Paul Braun Cygnus Productions nerdware@ctgonline.org "Enjoy every sandwich." -- Warren Zevon "At Microsoft, Quality is Job, oh, I dunno, maybe 7 or 8?" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Jun 10 16:36:24 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406101436.24211.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Sellam, You're probably talking to a lot of folks who have a several Amigas (like myself) and love 'em. Just because you not familiar with them doesn't automatically make them "a joke". Remember, they were doing graphics in the '80s in a manner similar to SGI while costing a fraction of the price - in many ways, way ahead of their time. Amigas supported NTSC, PAL and several "VGA" modes - including their monitors - which non-Amiga systems and monitors of the time couldn't begin to support (other than SGI). And if you think Amigas are a pain to setup, try an equivalent SGI box ;-) I would have been glad to help you setup the Amiga's if I had known about this in advance - as it is, I'm pretty much booked until this evening's CHM mtg. Give me a call if you are still "stuck" and I'll try to help. Lyle On Thursday 10 June 2004 13:30, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > You know, everytime I have to setup a computer other than an Apple, I'm > reminded of just how lame every other computer is. > > So I pull an Amiga 1000 off the shelf and proceed to set it up since I'm > making no progress with the 500 and time is being lost. It still doesn't > work with any of the video cables I have, but I was able to get a cable > splitter to connect the composite output to the inputs on the back of the > display. Now I have color. But, now I have no boot disk. The disk that > booted on the 500 won't boot on the 1000. I have a Workbench v1.2 disk > that works on the 500 and the 2000, but not the 1000. What a joke. > > You know, there's probably a really good reason why Commodore and Atari > are gone but Apple is still around. -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 10 18:48:59 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40C8F36B.5040205@mdrconsult.com> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Why does everything have to be so difficult? > > I'm trying to set up an Amiga 500 for tonight's Computer History Museum > event. It's got a DB-23 RGB output and a Mono out. I've got an Amiga > 1080 high resolution color monitor. It's got a Video and Chroma input, > plus a DA-9 RGB input. I've got an Amiga RF Modulator that plugs into > the DB-23 on the back of the Amiga and has a composite Video and Audio out > (and an RF out). Then I have several video cables. One is a DB-25 to a > DIN. Another is a DIN to three RCA leads. And then there's the DIN to > DA-9. At least one of these might be for the Atari 520ST (which I also > need to set up). > > None of this connects up in a way which gives me colour on the display. > > Is it too much to ask to have products designed by people who are not > insane? Nothing personal, Sellam, but that sort of statement drives me nuts. After reading this and the post about the A1000, it looks like you're expecting to be able to set up a machine you know almost nothing about, as easily as you would a machine of the type you've used all your life. To coin a phrase, that doesn't compute. The Apples are simple and obvious to you for the same reason Windows is simple and obvious to most people - they're *familiar*. Even with an unknown model, you have a good, *educated* feel for the design philosophy. To expect that kind of intuitive understanding of an Amiga or an Atari (or an S/390) with little or no experience is what's insane. Doc From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Thu Jun 10 16:17:56 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. References: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06><6.1.0.6.2.20040610130428.02cba6d0@mail.n.ml.org> <005e01c44f2f$35acf0c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: > It's beginning to look like this complete MC68000 system, with graphics > and sound, is perfectly at home in the Goodwill next to the $2.00 toaster, > offered at a similar price. None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 11 21:56:01 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Deja-vu? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CA70C1.7020201@mdrconsult.com> Davison, Lee wrote: > Is it just me or are most of the last few messages repeats? Oh Good!! I'm the mail admin on our company nyetwork, and I was just about to go log-surfing.... Doc From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 11 22:14:07 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Deja-vu? In-Reply-To: <40CA70C1.7020201@mdrconsult.com> References: <40CA70C1.7020201@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040611201315.01fe49e8@mail.zipcon.net> > I'm the mail admin on our company nyetwork, and I was just about to go > log-surfing.... aw doc, i just AIN'T gonna go there :) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 11 21:59:43 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406120304.XAA11620@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > IIRC, SPARC 20s and SPARC 10s are sun4ds. Sorry, they're still sun4ms. (I think sun4d postdates the sun4u, which would imply that sun4ds are 64-bit machines...which the 20 and 10 definitely aren't; I have some and know them.) > When I get home, I will own zero machines that can run Solaris X. As I have no interest in running Solaris of any stripe, I will cheerfully take all those old klunkers of SPARCs off your hands... :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 11 22:04:56 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <40C88AEC.19459.1A1B7AD@localhost> References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> <40C88AEC.19459.1A1B7AD@localhost> Message-ID: <200406120308.XAA11641@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [Gates] said that there was no way to multitask in anything under 8mb > of ram. > A reporter in the back raised his hand and asked if Bill was aware > that his own AmigaBasic would multitask on a 256k Amiga 1000..... > Gates pretended he didn't hear [...] Heh. When I first came to Montreal, we had a VAX running VMS, supporting the whole lab. Multitasking. I don't know how much RAM it had, but more than 8M would surprise me. This _was_ 1980. Heck, we had only about 30M of _disk_! /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 11 23:05:01 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <200406120308.XAA11641@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> <40C88AEC.19459.1A1B7AD@localhost> <200406120308.XAA11641@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040612040501.GD15450@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 11:04:56PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > > [Gates] said that there was no way to multitask in anything under 8mb > > of ram. > > Heh. When I first came to Montreal, we had a VAX running VMS, > supporting the whole lab. Multitasking. > > I don't know how much RAM it had, but more than 8M would surprise me. > This _was_ 1980. Heck, we had only about 30M of _disk_! The 11/750 shipped with 512KB standard (2 x 256KB boards), with a max of 2MB (8 memory slots). Over the years, two different memory controller upgrades were available - one that let you use 8 x 1MB boards, and another that allowed 4MB boards, but you were limited to 14MB total, probably due to memory space conflicts with I/O. But VMS 3.x will run in 2MB for certain... not sure about VMS 4.0. I would expect VMS 1.0 would run in 512K, but I've never used it (though I do have the paper manuals at home, in storage). Not sure what you would have had in the lab in 1980, but it was probably an 11/780. That's one of the few models I haven't worked with, so I'll leave it to others to comment on its memory. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Jun-2004 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.9 F (-59.4 C) Windchill -118.4 F (-83.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.5 kts Grid 045 Barometer 680.3 mb (10615. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 11 23:42:00 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <1086951637.15873.87.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406112342.00083.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 11 June 2004 07:23, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 11:00:37AM +0000, Jules Richardson wrote: > > On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 10:34, Arno Kletzander wrote: > > > Not to forget the Sun SPARCstation 5, which came after the 10 and > > > had the new style (gray/violet opposed to gray only) housing... > > > > Weren't both 10's and 20's actually SparcStation 3's? Damn > > confusing... > > SPARC 4s and SPARC5s were sun4ms with various amounts of Sbus slots > > IIRC, SPARC 20s and SPARC 10s are sun4ds. No, they were Sun4m's with real MBUS slots, the 4's/5's didn't have the MBUS slots. Sun4d was the SparcServer 1000(E) and SparcCenter 2000(E) (And possibly the Cray CS6400 but I'm not terribly familar with that as I don't own one ;) > I wish I had some DIMMs for SPARC 10s... my main machine at home is a > SPARC 5 w/256MB of 32MB DIMMs, but I have a SPARC 10 w/0MB of DRAM > sitting in a corner. Memory is dirt cheap on ebay, at least compared to the same amount of PC100 or DDR memory. I've got a large supply of 16MB DIMMs if you need them. > When I get home, I will own zero machines that can run Solaris X. Why would you want to run that OS? ; ) > I suppose, I'll have to look for a SPARC machine better than an U1/170. > > If anyone wants to "lose" a 64-bit SPARC machine next Feb, I'll probably > want to upgrade. Ultra 5's and 10's are a dime a dozen, at least for the <400MHz variety, and should run Solaris X just fine. Well, they'll run as "fine" as they run anything else... Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 11 23:43:46 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <20040612040501.GD15450@bos7.spole.gov> References: <40C8CA95.1030304@rattie.demon.co.uk> <40C88AEC.19459.1A1B7AD@localhost> <200406120308.XAA11641@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040612040501.GD15450@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406120445.AAA22178@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Heh. When I first came to Montreal, we had a VAX running VMS, >> supporting the whole lab. Multitasking. >> I don't know how much RAM it had, but more than 8M would surprise >> me. This _was_ 1980. Heck, we had only about 30M of _disk_! > The 11/750 [...] > But VMS 3.x will run in 2MB for certain... not sure about VMS 4.0. I think this was 3.x. Fuzzy memory says 3.6, 3.7, something like that. > Not sure what you would have had in the lab in 1980, but it was > probably an 11/780. Oh, yes, definitely a 780. I remember _that_ much. Somewhat later, we got some 750s; that was about the time we first got a real Unix in - BSD 4.1c; later, BSD 4.2.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 11 23:49:17 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <200406120304.XAA11620@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> <200406120304.XAA11620@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200406112349.17840.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 11 June 2004 21:59, der Mouse wrote: > > IIRC, SPARC 20s and SPARC 10s are sun4ds. > > Sorry, they're still sun4ms. (I think sun4d postdates the sun4u, which > would imply that sun4ds are 64-bit machines...which the 20 and 10 > definitely aren't; I have some and know them.) Geeze, of all people to get something about SPARC wrong, I wouldn't think you'd be calling Sun4d 64bit! Sun4d (as in the SS1000(E) and SC2000(E)) uses 32bit SuperSparc-I/II modules, although it does have more than 32bit of address space. You can use up to 5 GB of ram in a maxed-out SC2000(E). That's a *lot* of 32MB SIMMs. It's capable of using any MBUS-slot module that has an MXCC (aka M-bus, XD-bus cache controller), which is essentially any SuperSparc that has L2 cache. > > When I get home, I will own zero machines that can run Solaris X. > > As I have no interest in running Solaris of any stripe, I will > cheerfully take all those old klunkers of SPARCs off your hands... :-) The only reason I (do/would) ever run Solaris on a machine is to upgrade firmware to be able to use a different OS with the machine, or to reverse engineer a driver. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 12 00:09:13 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <200406112349.17840.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> <200406120304.XAA11620@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406112349.17840.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200406120514.BAA22287@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> IIRC, SPARC 20s and SPARC 10s are sun4ds. >> Sorry, they're still sun4ms. (I think sun4d postdates the sun4u, >> which would imply that sun4ds are 64-bit machines...which the 20 and >> 10 definitely aren't; I have some and know them.) > Geeze, of all people to get something about SPARC wrong, I wouldn't > think you'd be calling Sun4d 64bit! [...] Ah! Thanks for the explanation. (I've never worked with a sun4d machine; you may note that I didn't quite claim the 4d was 64-bit, only that something I wasn't sure of seemed to imply it.) By they way, _are_ they post-sun4u designs? I'm fairly sure I didn't hear of a sun4d until after I'd heard of a sun4u, but of course that's not the same thing. >>> When I get home, I will own zero machines that can run Solaris X. >> As I have no interest in running Solaris of any stripe, I will >> cheerfully take all those old klunkers of SPARCs off your hands... :-) > The only reason I (do/would) ever run Solaris on a machine is to > upgrade firmware to be able to use a different OS with the machine, > or to reverse engineer a driver. :) Well, you, maybe, but I think it was our friend at Penguin Central that was going on about having no machines capable of running Solaris X and indicating a desire for a more recent Sun. (I'm right with you on what Solaris is good for, myself.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 12 00:19:28 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Stupid Amiga Tricks In-Reply-To: <200406112349.17840.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <32585.1086950066@www10.gmx.net> <20040611122338.GA19956@bos7.spole.gov> <200406120304.XAA11620@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406112349.17840.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20040612051928.GA23097@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 11, 2004 at 11:49:17PM -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > The only reason I (do/would) ever run Solaris on a machine is to upgrade > firmware to be able to use a different OS with the machine, or to reverse > engineer a driver. :) Solaris used to make me a lot of money. These days, though, Linux jobs are easier to find. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Jun-2004 05:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -117 F (-82.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.1 kts Grid 029 Barometer 680.5 mb (10607. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat Jun 12 00:58:18 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Amiga Golden Gate II Message-ID: Sorting through my stash in preparation for moving I've uncovered one of these cards, unfortunately it's had all its socketed chips robbed at some time (not by me) which are all GALs. Anyone got the fuse maps for these? I really don't want to have to work out the logic by hand. Cheers, Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 12 01:08:37 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:27 2005 Subject: Amiga Golden Gate II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040612060837.GD24161@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 06:58:18AM +0100, Davison, Lee wrote: > > Sorting through my stash in preparation for moving I've uncovered > one of these cards, unfortunately it's had all its socketed chips > robbed at some time (not by me) which are all GALs. > > Anyone got the fuse maps for these? I really don't want to have to > work out the logic by hand. I don't know that I have them with me, but I do at home, since I make the cards. If you can find 7.5ns parts, go with them. I don't have my manufacturing notes with me, but at least one of the GALs needs to be faster than 15ns (it's probably the 22V10). My device files are on an Amiga and the Compaq laptop I use to burn parts. I don't think I have a copy accessible to me from here. It's more than just logic - the GALs also handle the AUTOCONFIG equations, emulating a nybble-wide ROM. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Jun-2004 06:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.8 F (-58.3 C) Windchill -115.2 F (-81.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.1 kts Grid 044 Barometer 680.2 mb (10619. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ghldbrd at ccp.com Sat Jun 12 01:24:37 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Amiga Golden Gate II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3294.65.123.179.156.1087021477.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Outside of finding the original firmware coding, you might be just hosed, which is a shame. That was very desireable as an Amiga accesory as ISTR it would run Win 3.1 with some degree of speed. Far better than the 8088/286/386SX Commodore bridgeboards. I guess you might have to put that in the bin with a hard drive that had been bulk erased, loosing all the servo inforamtion. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO > > Sorting through my stash in preparation for moving I've uncovered > one of these cards, unfortunately it's had all its socketed chips > robbed at some time (not by me) which are all GALs. > > Anyone got the fuse maps for these? I really don't want to have to > work out the logic by hand. > > Cheers, > Lee. > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The > service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive > anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: > http://www.star.net.uk > ________________________________________________________________________ > From spc at conman.org Sat Jun 12 02:08:42 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Free in Socal: NCR systems In-Reply-To: <00cb01c4501d$2ffb0470$6aa8a8c0@junko> from "elmo" at Jun 11, 2004 06:32:55 PM Message-ID: <20040612070842.8181910B2C88@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great elmo once stated: > > I have two matching NCR 3230 boxes available for pickup. Where are you located? > They are 486/33's with three ISA slots, floppy, and one has a 170m = > drive. 16 and 32 megs memory. > I believe they would support a 486/66 chip. > They've very small POS-oriented boxes that look very slick. > They were constructed for use as routers. Nice boxes. Used one for a colocated server for about three, four years (switched to a newer server in 2002 or 2003). Linux ran fine on the box, and you can see pictures of it in action here: http://www.flummux.org/tower/ -spc (The unit on top of it is attached to some other computer ... ) From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 12 03:28:29 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Amiga Golden Gate II In-Reply-To: <3294.65.123.179.156.1087021477.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> References: <3294.65.123.179.156.1087021477.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <20040612082829.GG24161@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 01:24:37AM -0500, ghldbrd@ccp.com wrote: > Outside of finding the original firmware coding, you might be just hosed, > which is a shame. That was very desireable as an Amiga accesory as ISTR > it would run Win 3.1 with some degree of speed. Far better than the > 8088/286/386SX Commodore bridgeboards. The Golden Gate II Bridgeboard was the original product name for the GG2 Bus+ that I make. I bought the designs when the inventor graduated from college and moved to Japan. It's a bus adapter, not a PC-on-a-card like the C= A2088 boards, etc. It doesn't run DOS/Windows, it maps ISA cards into Zorro space for AmigaDOS drivers to access - small IDE drives, several flavors of Ethernet, serial and printer ports, primarily, but it's possible to talk to a variety of non-DMA cards with it. Someone once ran an FM tuner card via a DOS emulator... the emulator mapped 80x86 I/O instructions into 680x0 memory access instructions at the right place in memory for the DOS programs to hit the hardware. There's also good xBSD support for the GG2 Bus+. It's not firmware that he lacks - it's logic equations/a fuse map for the four GALs, three 16V8s and one 22V10. They provide some of the logic for translating ISA bus signals to/from Zorro II bus signals, and, equally importantly, the logic for emulating a nybble-wide ROM so that AUTOCONFIG can detect and classify the card. No AUTOCONFIG means that the card won't appear in 16-bit Zorro space. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Jun-2004 08:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -69.7 F (-56.5 C) Windchill -111.6 F (-79.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.5 kts Grid 044 Barometer 680.4 mb (10611. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Sat Jun 12 06:46:08 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in stlouis In-Reply-To: <001001c45010$01fad0d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <001001c45010$01fad0d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <1825CCF2-BC66-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 12 Jun 2004, at 09:58, Jay West wrote: > An odd dec item I've never seen... it was something like TA90Z... I > figure > it was a tape drive. Pretty huge. But on the front through the cabinet > cutout were the buttons I'm familiar with on 14" drives - run, stop, > fault, > drive ID plug, etc. And in the front was a recess where a removable > hand-held keypad unit sat. This hand held unit had like 40 or so > buttons on > it, almost looked like a diagnostic keypad or something. Odd. ISTR that the TA90 was a re-badged IBM manufactured tape drive. The tapes were relatively low capacity, but high speed and had a built in tape changer. I recall visiting a large VAX site in Sydney that had two or three of them. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 12 11:45:14 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 In-Reply-To: <20040611160126.35369.qmail@web51802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040611160126.35369.qmail@web51802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1087058713.6033.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 09:01, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > Are you in california? Too bad this rare thing will be > scrapped. Why not post it on ebay and insist that > buyers pick up only? You might have a wider audience > there. It's in Sunnyvale, CA. It's large (somewhat larger than a standard 19" rack) *and* heavy (500#). > > > --- Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > Hi, > > > > This was on the last list of items I wanted to get > > rid of but no one > > seemed to want it. Here's your last chance > > otherwise it gets scrapped > > (I don't really want to but I need it out of my > > place). > > > > Please don't ask for parts off of it. That doesn't > > get rid of it and > > only makes it more difficult to get rid of. If you > > want parts, take the > > whole thing, then I don't care what you do with it. > > > > Thanks. > > -- > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ -- TTFN - Guy From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 12 11:50:17 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Sun Sparcserver 490 Message-ID: <1087059016.6030.17.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Hi, Someone had agreed to pick up the Sun Sparcserver 490 (Sunnyvale, CA). However, I have not heard from him in several weeks. So it's being offered again. It is a Sparcserver 490, in a very nice Sun rack. It weighs about 250-300lbs. I also have a lot of Sun documentation that goes with it. It's free for the taking. Just *take* it! Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From bob at applegate.org Sat Jun 12 10:39:45 2004 From: bob at applegate.org (Bob Applegate) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 Message-ID: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> This system is free for pickup in southern NJ (Medford/Mt Laurel area). I'll be in Boston next week, so if someone up there wants it, let me know and I can drag it along in the van. This is the collection... DECstation 5000/240 processor. Includes three 32 MB memory modules (room for 12 more). SZ-12 expansion box with one RZ55 SCSI drive (300 MB?) and one RZ56 (600 MB?). SZ-12 expansion box with two RZ56 (600 MB?) drives. SCSI cables to go from processor to drive enclosure, and from one drive encloser to another. You'll need to supply your own terminator. PMAD-A board. I can't remember what this does. Four MS02 8 MB memory boards for 5000/2xx series workstations. Possibly other miscellaneous DEC cables related to this system. If you have any questions, just ask. Bob From David.Schlinkert at veritas.com Sat Jun 12 11:29:00 2004 From: David.Schlinkert at veritas.com (David Schlinkert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Osborne Vixen Message-ID: <8A5EAB87D88C3541BC2B79ED69A22EE605F086@svlxchcln5.enterprise.veritas.com> Mike, I don't have my Osborne 1 any more, but have a Vixen "new" in the original shipping carton. The carton has been opened to check for mice. Are you still in the market? David From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Jun 12 12:53:59 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Tektronix 2225 scope Message-ID: Folks, I'm on holiday this week and I've borrowed the spare Tek 2225 scope to fiddle with. Can anyone give me a head-start on this beastie so I can go over my dead TRS80 M1 and see what's actually working? I'm a total scope novice so I'm searching for online tutorials on general scope use but if anyone's got experience of the 2225 that'd be great :) Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 12 13:02:08 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part Message-ID: I was scrounging around in a surplus electronics shop the other day and came across an interesting part. It was a Delay Line, part number ADL-CN037. I forgot who the manufacturer was, but it was someone big and established (GE maybe)? Anyone know what this is? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 12 13:10:46 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in stlouis In-Reply-To: <1825CCF2-BC66-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <000f01c450a8$95afa2e0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > ISTR that the TA90 was a re-badged IBM manufactured tape drive. The > tapes were relatively low capacity, but high speed and had a built in > tape changer. My recollection agrees with yours. The TA90 was an IBM 3480 compatible drive (it may even have been a rebadged IBM tape drive). There were also later vesions: TA91 and TA92, but I forget the differences (basically just higher density I would guess). The TKZ60/61/62/63/64 were various SCSI equivalents. The TA9x ones were (IIRC) basically ready to hang of an HSC. If all you want to do is read 3480/3490 tapes then the appropriate TKZ6x is probably much easier to keep fed and watered ! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 12 14:08:33 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406121408.33301.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 12 June 2004 13:02, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I was scrounging around in a surplus electronics shop the other day and > came across an interesting part. It was a Delay Line, part number > ADL-CN037. I forgot who the manufacturer was, but it was someone big > and established (GE maybe)? > > Anyone know what this is? Probably just a "standard" mercury delay line. The RL11 I've got behind me uses one for its write precompenstation, and there are usually lots of them in "older" video equipment (like 70's or early 80's). They do what they sound like, add a delay to a signal, usually on the order tens of microseconds for stuff I've seen. Some early machines used large versions as their primary storage, they functioned somewhat like a (more) solid-state drum memory. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 12 14:15:09 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Kodak Displaymaker "video graphics system" Message-ID: <200406121415.09722.pat@computer-refuge.org> Has anyone heard of this before? It's an all-in-one unit about 10"x11" footprint and 2.5" high, with a single 5.25" floppy drive out the front of it, and a chicklet keyboard on top, covering the front half of the unit. On the back is a "video/audio in", RS-232, RGB analog, RGB-TTL, Composite video, and modulated video connector, along with an IEC power connector and power switch. I got this with some other toys a couple weeks ago, and it seems to be missing the software that goes with it (it demands to boot from the floppy drive). I opened it up, and inside it looks vaugely PC-ish, with an 8088, and a 2x31 pin header that might be a connector for an ISA slot if used with the appropritate header->card edge adaptor. Anyways, if anyone knows anything about this, or can lend me a copy of the software, I'd be very appreciative. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 12 14:30:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <200406121408.33301.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Probably just a "standard" mercury delay line. The RL11 I've got behind me > uses one for its write precompenstation, and there are usually lots of > them in "older" video equipment (like 70's or early 80's). They do what > they sound like, add a delay to a signal, usually on the order tens of > microseconds for stuff I've seen. > > Some early machines used large versions as their primary storage, they > functioned somewhat like a (more) solid-state drum memory. Exactly. So what I should have asked (what I meant to ask) is does anyone have any data on this part to determine how long the delay is? I'm thinking it would be neat to try to use this (or a number of these in series) to create a delay line memory to experiment with. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From paulpenn at knology.net Sat Jun 12 15:14:29 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server><1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain><20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> <003101c44fe5$cdd35220$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <019b01c450b9$de68d2c0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Steven wrote: > Anyone have the Kilobaud article where someone connected a FDD > to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? I just looked through my end of year indexes for my Kilobaud/Microcomputing magazines, but I didn't see this article (or any ET-3400 articles, for that matter). Sometimes the titles hide the contents pretty well. If you can come up with an issue citation, I can make a copy of the article. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 12 15:23:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040612162334.00851330@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:02 AM 6/12/04 -0700, you wrote: > >I was scrounging around in a surplus electronics shop the other day and >came across an interesting part. It was a Delay Line, part number >ADL-CN037. I forgot who the manufacturer was, but it was someone big and >established (GE maybe)? Tektronix or HP maybe? Tektronix used them in a lot of their scopes to delay the signal so that the scope could trigger the sweep from the signal and still have time to display it. I just picked up a couple of Tektronix cards with DLs on them. Joe > >Anyone know what this is? > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 12 15:24:55 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406121524.55887.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 12 June 2004 14:30, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Probably just a "standard" mercury delay line. The RL11 I've got > > behind me uses one for its write precompenstation, and there are > > usually lots of them in "older" video equipment (like 70's or early > > 80's). They do what they sound like, add a delay to a signal, usually > > on the order tens of microseconds for stuff I've seen. > > > > Some early machines used large versions as their primary storage, they > > functioned somewhat like a (more) solid-state drum memory. > > Exactly. So what I should have asked (what I meant to ask) is does > anyone have any data on this part to determine how long the delay is? > I'm thinking it would be neat to try to use this (or a number of these > in series) to create a delay line memory to experiment with. You should be able to figure that out with a scope and function generator, if you can't find anything else. : ) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sat Jun 12 15:33:05 2004 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik S. Klein) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Osborne Vixen In-Reply-To: <8A5EAB87D88C3541BC2B79ED69A22EE605F086@svlxchcln5.enterprise.veritas.com> Message-ID: <000001c450bc$7772ea30$6e7ba8c0@p933> Hello David, You actually mailed a large mailing list and not an individual. I'm sure you've gotten at least a few responses from your offer. Let me add myself to the list! :) Depending on the price, I might be interested in the Vixen. Best regards, Erik -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Schlinkert Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:29 AM To: 'cctech@classiccmp.org' Subject: Osborne Vixen Mike, I don't have my Osborne 1 any more, but have a Vixen "new" in the original shipping carton. The carton has been opened to check for mice. Are you still in the market? David From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 16:13:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Tektronix 2225 scope In-Reply-To: from "Witchy" at Jun 12, 4 06:53:59 pm Message-ID: > I'm on holiday this week and I've borrowed the spare Tek 2225 scope to > fiddle with. Can anyone give me a head-start on this beastie so I can go > over my dead TRS80 M1 and see what's actually working? I'm a total scope > novice so I'm searching for online tutorials on general scope use but if > anyone's got experience of the 2225 that'd be great :) I've never used a 2225, but I've used other 'scoeps. And actually I don't find a 'scope that useful for general computer troubleshooting. However, as that's what yuo have, I will give some explanations. Firstly the real basics. I am sure you know a 'scope plots a graph of voltage against time (For the pedants, there is often also 'XY' mode that plots one voltage against another, but anyway). There are 3 main sections of the 'scope to consider 1) The Y amplifier. This takes the incoming signal and processes it so it can drive the CRT. The main user controls are the Y-shift (moves the entire trace up and now), Sensitivity (a multi-position switch, calibrated in V/cm, which sets the size of the trace) and the input coupling swtich (DC, AC (couples the signal via a capacitor), ground (turns off the input signal, so you can see where the 0V level is on the screen). For most computer trobleshooting use DC coupling (you _don't_ want ignore the average value of the signal) and set a sensitivity of 2V/cm. That will give a trace 2.5cm high for most logic signals of course. 2) The timebase. This is the section which moves the beam across the screen at a constant rate. Again, you have an X-shift control (moves the trace left and right). A speed control, calibrated in s/cm sets how fast it moves -- the setting for this depends on the signal you're trying to display). 3) THe trigger. This starts each sweep of the timebase at hopefully a similar point of the input waveform so you get a steady trace (it is almost impossible to make useful measurements from a non-steady trace!). You will hav a trigger source selector (try setting this to the Y input in use, at least to start with) and a trigger level control (turn this until you get a stable trace). OK, now for some TRS80 M1 troubleshooting. I assume you have the schematics -- if not you're going to have problems.. I would start by using a voltmeter to check the 3 supply rails -- +5V, +12V, and -12V. A good place to find these is on the pins of the DRAM chips. Assuming they're all OK, check the clock waveforms. Pin 6 of the Z80 is a good place to start (1.7MHz square wave IIRC, so try setting the timebase to 0.5us/cm if you can). And look at the outputs of the video divider chain with the 'scope. Again you should get steady square waves on all of them. Now look at the CPU address pins. You can't get steady signals on these (at least not if the machine is being somehat sane) -- they're not repetitive signals. But you should get TTL level square waves on them. If any look odd -- particulrly if you see illegal logic levels, then be suspicious. And the same for data lines. What is the fault with this machine, BTW? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 12 16:18:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <200406121408.33301.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jun 12, 4 02:08:33 pm Message-ID: > Probably just a "standard" mercury delay line. The RL11 I've got behind me > uses one for its write precompenstation, and there are usually lots of Actually, the RL11, and all other disk controllers (which use them for precompensation), DRAM cards (which often use them for producing the RAS/, CAS/, MUX signals in the right sequence, etc) use inductive/capacitive delay lines. They are purely electrical, and don't depend on mechanical pulses in a medium, like mercury. > them in "older" video equipment (like 70's or early 80's). They do what UK PAL video equipment used to use a glass delay line as part of the PAL decoder. This was a 'mechanical' device -- piezo-electric transducers sent a pulse through the glass which was picked up about 64us (a little less -- just under 1 line time) later by a similar transducers. Old VCRS -- the better ones anyway -- used a 64us (exactly 1 line time) delay line to store a video line to be used if there was a dropout on the tape. Modern ones don't seem to bother :-( I have often wondered about using such delay lines for data storage... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 12 16:28:31 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer In-Reply-To: <000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <001401c450c4$359006e0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > It's been quite a few months since the original posting and a > lot of the stuff is still for sale which leads me to think > the prices are ridiculous and the guy is a pack rat and just > doesn't want to sell anything. A packrat eh? That would be a case of the pot calling the kettle black for this list then :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Sat Jun 12 17:53:10 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part Message-ID: > So what I should have asked (what I meant to ask) is does anyone > have any data on this part to determine how long the delay is? Speed of sound in mercury is 1450m/s, how long is the path of the delay line? Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From awt at io.com Sat Jun 12 17:26:20 2004 From: awt at io.com (Wayne Talbot) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: How do you exit an Basic environment. In-Reply-To: <200406121844.i5CIhohg076368@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406121844.i5CIhohg076368@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1087079180.2929.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> > How do you exit an BASIC environment? Type BYE From go at ao.com Sat Jun 12 18:48:27 2004 From: go at ao.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CB964B.1090208@ao.com> Tony Duell wrote: ... > UK PAL video equipment used to use a glass delay line as part of the PAL > decoder. This was a 'mechanical' device -- piezo-electric transducers > sent a pulse through the glass which was picked up about 64us (a little > less -- just under 1 line time) later by a similar transducers. Old VCRS > -- the better ones anyway -- used a 64us (exactly 1 line time) delay line > to store a video line to be used if there was a dropout on the tape. > Modern ones don't seem to bother :-( > > I have often wondered about using such delay lines for data storage... Back in the early 70s at Oregon State University, there sat a "home built" (using Naval Research funding) computer called "Nebula." (You can look it up - it's in many of the online histories/chronologies) Its memory consisted of 4k by 34 bit (yes, 34 bit) words made from Corning Electronic Devices glass delay lines (part number 853302.) These delay lines were 100us devices and, at about 27mhz bit rate, we stored around 2k bits per device. This resulted in 64 words of storage per card, so with 64 cards we achieved a whopping 4k words (16 kbytes) of storage. It was all DTL logic driven (as was most of the computer at that time) built from your basic 2n3406 and 2n3407 transistors, if memory serves. I fooled around with this machine from 1970 through the mid 70s, getting its small drum offline storage working and adding a few instructions, general maintenance etc. as well as writing a bunch of software. When computer time on this machine was "free" relative to the $300 / hr on the "big iron" it was an easy choice. The memory was quite reliable, not temperature sensative and would retain its contents indefinitely (as long as power wasn't removed, of course.) The 34 bit word layout consisted of 32 "numeric" data bits, plus a S ("spare") and P ("parity") bits. The 34 bits were all part of the programmer model. The "parity" bit was misnamed, since it really never was involved in a word 'parity' check and the "spare" bit wasn't really a "spare." Both were testable and setable but not involved in numeric or logical operations. The only changed on store and explicit set/clear operations. The machine also had 2k similar size words, made from basically the same glass delay lines, but organized as a content-addressable memory. The CAM was not usable as program storage, but you could store data there, after a fashion. As I said, the memory worked well and including the drivers and timing controls, was a comparable volume to core memory of the time. Of course, it was slow and serial (imagine a drum with a 100 uS rotation rate.) But since the machine itself (at the outset) had a 100uS cycle time, it was still "relatively" fast. We later (mid 70s) replaced the glass memory with a core storage module from a Stretch compute (OSU received a Stretch - minus CPU alas) and Nebula got one of it's core modules. This resulted in 32k words of storage with a cycle time of a few microseconds. Unfortunately Nebulas core control logic wasn't up to that speed (it was a serial computer by nature) so the best we ever got was about 30 uS word time (and that was pushing it a bit.) Short answer, glass was quite reliable. I still have one of the modules from the machine (after it was "decomissioned" for the core changeout) and want to build a small demo memory with it some day. Only wish I had enough to build a reasonable size machine... -Gary > > -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 12 20:52:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <40CB964B.1090208@ao.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Gary Oliver wrote: > Short answer, glass was quite reliable. I still have one of the modules > from the machine (after it was "decomissioned" for the core changeout) > and want to build a small demo memory with it some day. Only wish I had > enough to build a reasonable size machine... That's really cool. I'm glad there's still an example of that type of memory around, being that it's so unique. I've certainly never heard of "glass delay line memory". -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 12 21:04:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting hamfest finds Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040612220401.008a1b90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I went to a small hamfest today and found an interesting item. It's an early Simpson 260 meter with no series number and a BROWN bakelite case. I've used these meters for 40+ years and never even heard of one of these before! Other goodies include a Tektronix 465 scope and a Wavetek Function/Noise generator (cheap!). Also the seller FINALLY brought me the National Semiconductor Pacer computer that I bought several months ago. It's a large box with 2 four digit displays and a calculator-like keyboard and appears to be in perfect condition. Pictures to follow in a few days. Also I went scrounging yesterday and found a big heap of cards for the HP-1000 including three DAS cards (very big $$$ :-) Also found a Multibus chassis with power supply made by AMD. It a Z8002 CPU on one card and two other wire wrap cards in it. I haven't had a chance to look at it closer. Joe From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Sat Jun 12 21:55:31 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer References: <001401c450c4$359006e0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <001501c450f1$f691b0a0$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" ; "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: RE: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer > > It's been quite a few months since the original posting and a > > lot of the stuff is still for sale which leads me to think > > the prices are ridiculous and the guy is a pack rat and just > > doesn't want to sell anything. > > A packrat eh? That would be a case of the pot calling > the kettle black for this list then :-) > > Antonio > > > -- > > --------------- > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org > so true, so true. I actually thought about that before I wrote it, which is unusual for me! I have, however, just divested myself of a full Outback load of Hyperion material and a Terminet30 that I had for just over a week. But I've picked up a couple of Macs in the meantime. Guess everyone here knows how it goes. Thanks for the jolt! :) bm From webhead at theantiquecomputer.com Sat Jun 12 21:58:25 2004 From: webhead at theantiquecomputer.com (Brian Mahoney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Osborne Vixen References: <000001c450bc$7772ea30$6e7ba8c0@p933> Message-ID: <001b01c450f2$5dec6e20$6402a8c0@home> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Erik S. Klein" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:33 PM Subject: RE: Osborne Vixen > Hello David, > > You actually mailed a large mailing list and not an individual. > > I'm sure you've gotten at least a few responses from your offer. Let me > add myself to the list! :) > > Depending on the price, I might be interested in the Vixen. > > Best regards, > > Erik > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Schlinkert > Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:29 AM > To: 'cctech@classiccmp.org' > Subject: Osborne Vixen > > Mike, > > I don't have my Osborne 1 any more, but have a Vixen "new" in the > original > shipping carton. The carton has been opened to check for mice. Are you > still in the market? > > David > I got an offer of an Osborne like this from Alaska just a short time ago. Cost of shipping killed it. Wonder if it's the same one. bm From jimmydevice at verizon.net Sat Jun 12 22:02:40 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (jimmydevice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: How do you exit an Basic environment. In-Reply-To: <1087079180.2929.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <200406121844.i5CIhohg076368@huey.classiccmp.org> <1087079180.2929.1.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <40CBC3D0.7040500@verizon.net> Wayne Talbot wrote: >>How do you exit an BASIC environment? >> >> > >Type BYE > > > > > Then the modem disconnects and the TTY jabbers line noise. Jim Davis. From rickb at bensene.com Sat Jun 12 22:06:20 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002501c450f3$66fd5550$030aa8c0@bensene.com> I don't know specifically what this one is, but I can say that magnetostrictive delay line technology was very common in early electronic calculators. These devices used magnetostrictive 'tapes', which would change length when a magnetic field is applied. These tapes served as transducers which were connected to the ends of a long coil of special wire, into which acoustic pulses were launched. The pulses would travel to the other end of the coil of wire, and be picked up by a similar transducer at the other end. Most calculators would need to store between 128 and 2048 bits, and ran at clock rates between 30KHz to 500KHz. Many interesting schemes were used to initialize the memory, as well as synchronizing and re-timing data as it circulated through the delay line. The delay lines were relatively temperature stable, but were susceptible to mechanical shock. I've had a number of cases where you could really confuse a calculator by simply sharply tapping the case of the delay line. This technology was actually used into the early 1970's, as it was inexpensive compared to other technologies such as discrete transistor flip flops, magnetic core memory, small-scale IC flip flops, and small magnetic drum memory. Even by the early '70's, when MOS IC technology started to become mainstream, the delay lines were still more cost effective than MOS shift registers. But, by '72 and '73, when Large Scale Integration (LSI) devices became mainstream, the era of the magnetostrictive delay line came to an end. There are lots of examples of calculators with magnetostrictive memory (Friden was a frequent user of the technology) on my "Old Calculator Web Museum" website at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum Sellam wrote: > I was scrounging around in a surplus electronics shop the > other day and came across an interesting part. It was a > Delay Line, part number ADL-CN037. I forgot who the > manufacturer was, but it was someone big and established (GE maybe)? > > Anyone know what this is? > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Jun 12 22:07:45 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: VAX Vector 6000-520 In-Reply-To: <1087058713.6033.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> References: <20040611160126.35369.qmail@web51802.mail.yahoo.com> <1087058713.6033.11.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1087095343.9020.2.camel@gandalf.shiresoft.com> On Sat, 2004-06-12 at 09:45, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 09:01, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > Are you in california? Too bad this rare thing will be > > scrapped. Why not post it on ebay and insist that > > buyers pick up only? You might have a wider audience > > there. > > It's in Sunnyvale, CA. It's large (somewhat larger than a standard 19" > rack) *and* heavy (500#). It's spoken for. The Sparc is still available though. > > > > > > --- Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > This was on the last list of items I wanted to get > > > rid of but no one > > > seemed to want it. Here's your last chance > > > otherwise it gets scrapped > > > (I don't really want to but I need it out of my > > > place). > > > > > > Please don't ask for parts off of it. That doesn't > > > get rid of it and > > > only makes it more difficult to get rid of. If you > > > want parts, take the > > > whole thing, then I don't care what you do with it. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > -- > > > > > > TTFN - Guy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > Do you Yahoo!? > > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. > > http://messenger.yahoo.com/ -- TTFN - Guy From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 12 22:06:13 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <002501c450f3$66fd5550$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Rick Bensene wrote: > This technology was actually used into the early 1970's, as it was > inexpensive compared to other technologies such as discrete transistor > flip flops, magnetic core memory, small-scale IC flip flops, and small > magnetic drum memory. Small magnetic drum memory? Neat! How small? What calculator models used that type of memory? I have a couple nice calculators that use delay lines. And I also have a delay line memory module that used to be in a calculator. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sat Jun 12 22:46:34 2004 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> Message-ID: What are the power requirements for this unit? I am right over the bridge in Philly and can come pick it up. It would be my first DEC. Greg Manuel -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Applegate Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 11:40 AM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 This system is free for pickup in southern NJ (Medford/Mt Laurel area). I'll be in Boston next week, so if someone up there wants it, let me know and I can drag it along in the van. This is the collection... DECstation 5000/240 processor. Includes three 32 MB memory modules (room for 12 more). SZ-12 expansion box with one RZ55 SCSI drive (300 MB?) and one RZ56 (600 MB?). SZ-12 expansion box with two RZ56 (600 MB?) drives. SCSI cables to go from processor to drive enclosure, and from one drive encloser to another. You'll need to supply your own terminator. PMAD-A board. I can't remember what this does. Four MS02 8 MB memory boards for 5000/2xx series workstations. Possibly other miscellaneous DEC cables related to this system. If you have any questions, just ask. Bob >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Jun 12 22:47:43 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer References: <40C83AE6.7050109@pacbell.net><000b01c44ee2$85f33320$6402a8c0@home> Message-ID: <003401c450f9$2ef54040$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> maybe I can trade him a set of maranz model 9's..... FOR ANYTHING WE WANT! ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 6:55 PM Subject: Re: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Brian Mahoney wrote: > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jim Battle" > > > that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: > > > > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html > > > > > > And then there's this, a bit further on: > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page27.html > > But this individual is seriously deluded when it comes to pricing... > if you look at some of his vintage audio gear, while quite a bit of it > *is* certainly rare and desireable but c'mon: $3000 for a pair of Jensen > G-600 triaxials? I don't theenk so... crummy UTC interstage transformers > - $125 *each*?? Oh yeah... only 100 for the 'used' ones. I'll pass. > > So one can only imagine what the Dumbkopf is going for. > > [ Maybe *he* designed (and named) it....? ] > > > Oohh... that's evil... > > > Cheers > > John > > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Jun 12 22:49:24 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer References: Message-ID: <004001c450f9$6b073610$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> define smarmy ?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:34 AM Subject: Re: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer > On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jim Battle wrote: > > > Some time back on the vintage computer marketplace > > (http://marketplace.vintage.org/), somebody listed a "dumpkopf 1" > > computer, but only the most vague information was given about it. I > > think there was some speculation here that it was maybe a hoax, and that > > no information could be found about it on the internet. > > > > I accidentally stumbled upon the machine at this web site; I suspect > > that this guy was the lister in that marketplace ad: > > > > http://community-2.webtv.net/ARCHAICAUDIO/WESTERNELECTRIC/page15.html > > Yes, that is his website. > > > It looks to be very interesting, perhaps significant, but certainly > > inoperable. The web page has a number of very interesting pictures of > > the computer, and says that the tubes have a 1954 date stamp on them. > > > > There are some large patch panels on the machine, so perhaps it wasn't a > > general purpose programmable computer (in fact, the name implies the > > machine isn't all that smart!) > > Unfortunately, he was too smarmy to get any useful information out of. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sat Jun 12 22:52:12 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator References: <008101c44d18$86ec3f40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <20040608053524.GA10313@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <005401c450f9$cf60e890$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> so you have a 400 you can share with us? does ups pick up at the south pole? ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Cool 4004 based calculator > On Mon, Jun 07, 2004 at 10:22:00PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > > I need to find a trashed out calc it seems just so we can get a 4004 for the > > microprocessor collection here! > > I have two 4004s... one came from a non-UPC barcode reader I picked up at > Dayton 20+ years ago for $5, the other from a commercial kitchen scale with > LED readout. > > They were used in more than just calculators. > > -ethan > > -- > Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 08-Jun-2004 05:30 Z > South Pole Station > PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -77 F (-60.6 C) Windchill -115.5 F (-82 C) > APO AP 96598 Wind 11.1 kts Grid 026 Barometer 669 mb (11042. ft) > > Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html > > From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sat Jun 12 23:53:39 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in stlouis In-Reply-To: <1825CCF2-BC66-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <001001c45010$01fad0d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <1825CCF2-BC66-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20040613045339.GA2878@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 09:46:08PM +1000, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 12 Jun 2004, at 09:58, Jay West wrote: > > >An odd dec item I've never seen... it was something like TA90Z... I > >figure it was a tape drive. Pretty huge. But on the front through the > >cabinet cutout were the buttons I'm familiar with on 14" drives - run, > >stop, fault, drive ID plug, etc. Those buttons are because the tape drive shares the SDI bus with RA-series drives. > ISTR that the TA90 was a re-badged IBM manufactured tape drive. 3480, perhaps? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Jun-2004 04:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.0 F (-57.3 C) Windchill -117.7 F (-83.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 19.9 kts Grid 019 Barometer 687 mb (10365 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Jun 13 00:05:48 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: <005401c450f9$cf60e890$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <20040608053524.GA10313@bos7.spole.gov> <005401c450f9$cf60e890$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <20040613050548.GB2878@bos7.spole.gov> On Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 08:52:12PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > so you have a 400 you can share with us? Not at this time... I acually have a couple of projects I'd like to put a 4004 into (like a clock). > does ups pick up at the south pole? Ah, no. USPS only, and not for 5 more months. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 13-Jun-2004 05:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -71.3 F (-57.4 C) Windchill -117 F (-82.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18.8 kts Grid 027 Barometer 687 mb (10365 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From drb at msu.edu Sat Jun 12 17:32:08 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: TSZ07, "5F MOTOR FAULT" Message-ID: <200406122232.i5CMW8Q9018134@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Dear all, I just obtained a TSZ07, and of course promptly tried to load a tape. The drive blows for a while, rotating the front hub, routinely seems to get the tape about halfway through the serpentine path, then emits an error message "5F MOTOR FAULT". The rear hub seems to be moving at least some, the front hub works the way I remember these units working. (Ok, _my_ memories are of 1600bpi Cipher-badged units from my Prime days.) Any suggestions, or am I screwed? Thanks, Dennis Boone From cannings at earthlink.net Sat Jun 12 18:00:43 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it References: <200406120035.RAA06245@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <000701c450d1$16f44270$6401a8c0@hal9000> Instead of speculating, lets run some numbers with the following presumptions; 1.. The spindle motor is running and the disk is up-to-speed (300 RPM) 2.. The head(s) have been stepped to track "zero" so we know what track we are on 3.. We will be getting data from head "zero" 4.. For the moment we will ignore the directory, so we don't know the starting sector # 5.. Worst-case through-put for a 1.44 MD 3.5 " Disk (500 K"bits"/second minimum) 6.. Tracks per disk "80" (per side) 7.. Sectors per track "18" (1440 total per side) 8.. 512 bytes per sector (737280 "raw" bytes per side with overhead) 9.. One track contains 9,216 bytes (73,728 bits) with overhead 10.. 300 RPM equals 5 Rev / Second 11.. Absolute "best-case" scenario 5 Rev times 73,728 bits = 368640 bits / sec or 46 KB/sec 12.. A modern EPP (Enhanced Parallel Port) can easily support >1 MB/sec The parallel port should easily be able to support the data from a Floppy Disk Drive if a DSP or FDContoller converts the data to parallel. If you dumped a tracks worth of data you would have to write software to put the sectors in the proper sequence (most likely contiguous but not necessarily in ORDER) because your file can be spread across sectors all over the disk (even the backside). Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Hi I doubt one can fetch data with most PC's from the parallel port fast enough to keep from being overrun, even on a byte wise basis. That is why I've suggest the DSP. May of these can run fast enough to do it on a BIT wise basis and require no external hardware, other than buffers. Dwight From: "Steven Canning" I've been looking into this for some time. The parallel port lacks the "through-put" to take the data on and off the floppy as serial data (as it comes off the drive "raw") but if you added some hardware (like a Western Digital FD controller) it will separate the data and convert it to "parallel" data which the parallel port can support. The inverse is also true (parallel data back to serial to fed the drive). The FDC can handle the Single density issue. Processing power of the computer is not an issue unless you have a painfully slow machine. I wish I had more time to work on this project. Anyone have the Kilobaud article were someone connected a FDD to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:55 PM Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly swapped between machines. MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of other models. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sun Jun 13 03:07:08 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 12 Jun 2004 22:18:12 BST." Message-ID: <200406130807.JAA19972@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > UK PAL video equipment used to use a glass delay line as part of the PAL > decoder. This was a 'mechanical' device -- piezo-electric transducers > sent a pulse through the glass which was picked up about 64us (a little > less -- just under 1 line time) later by a similar transducers. Old VCRS > -- the better ones anyway -- used a 64us (exactly 1 line time) delay line > to store a video line to be used if there was a dropout on the tape. > Modern ones don't seem to bother :-( > > I have often wondered about using such delay lines for data storage... Or building a replica EDSAC?? -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 13 05:38:36 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Benson 1645 plotter experience? Message-ID: <1087123115.24999.55.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone ever used a Benson 1645-R plotter? We dragged one out of store at the museum the other day. It does its test plot fine, and we look to have got a terminal talking to it as far as handshaking and sending characters via the SA interface. It's not responding to HPGL commands at all though - in fact it's not responding to anything sent down the serial line, other than the handshaking being ok. We're using the 'SA' interface which has one RS232 port and one unknown 9 pin port. We also have an 'SW' interface module, which has two ports on it - one male and one female. According to the (nearly useless) documentation we have, one is for a terminal and one for a host computer - but it doesn't explain the point of that (i.e. whether we should be trying to drive the thing from the terminal port or the host port). Nor does it explain what the difference between 'modem' and 'hardware' connections are (surely the plotter knows nothing of what's actually connected to its interfaces and doesn't care), what the difference is between local and remote mode (this is different between manual and auto mode), what the difference is between normal and emulate mode (emulate what? Selection of Benson or one of various HP plotter types is a seperate menu option, so I don't think it's to do with Benson/HPGL protocol emulation) Nor do the docs say what the difference is between the flow control options on the SW interface (partly why we gave up and started using the SA one) - there's a choice of CTS1, CTS2, then XON 1-4. How those map to the real world we don't know. Grumble grumble. Anyone know how to kick the thing into HPGL emulation mode so we can actually talk to it? cheers Jules From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Jun 13 06:09:43 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys In-Reply-To: <200406110014.03776.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <1578.65.123.179.146.1086929780.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> <200406110014.03776.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <40CC35F7.3040102@pacbell.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>Same seems to be true on DSDD 3.5" disks -- I haven't seen them >>available for several years, just the HD ones now. > > > Yes, quite impossible, if you don't count hamfests or eBay. :) I bought > about 300 (used) 5.25" floppies (a mix of "DSDD" and "DSHD" disks) for > $10 + shipping about a year ago off eBay. > > Pat I bought two boxes of DSDD 3.5" disks off the shelf at the Micro Center in Santa Clara, just a couple of months ago. They are Imation brand, "IBM formatted", 720KB. I believe these are easily reformatted for Macintosh. There was a 2002 copyright date on the package, so these were presumably manufactured recently. --Bill From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Jun 13 07:18:39 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:28 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: References: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> Message-ID: <20040613141839.29c2b354.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004 23:46:34 -0400 "G Manuel (GMC)" wrote: > What are the power requirements for this unit? IIRC my DECstation 5000/240 needs about 70 Watt without disk / framebuffer but 15 x 8 MB RAM modules. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jun 13 10:16:30 2004 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c45159$67b76d30$030aa8c0@bensene.com> One of the early proof-of-concept designs for the Friden 130 (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden130.html) used a magnetic drum, but in final production, the machine used a magnetostrictive delay line. The Canon 167 (http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-can167.html) used a small magnetic drum for register storage. Also, the Wyle Laboratories WS-01 (precursor to the WS-02, seen at http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-wyle.html), an interesting and very early programmable calculator used a small magnetic disc memory. More information at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/d-compucorp.html. Not many Wyle Labs WS-01's were sold. They had a lot of troubles with the small disc memory, which prompted the retooling to use a magnetostrictive delay line as the WS-02. So far as I know now, the only machine that used a mag disc/drum that was sold in production quantities was the Canon 167. Earlier 'desk-sized' (not desktop) calculators, such as the Monroe Monrobot I and II, the Clary DE-60, SCM 7816, and others, used magnetic drum memory almost exclusively. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Web Museum --- I wrote, and Sellam replied: > > > This technology was actually used into the early 1970's, as it was > > inexpensive compared to other technologies such as discrete > > transistor flip flops, magnetic core memory, small-scale IC flip > > flops, and small magnetic drum memory. > > Small magnetic drum memory? Neat! How small? What > calculator models used that type of memory? From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 13 10:28:13 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Request for information on HP 9826 Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040613112813.0099ad70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I got the message below from someone seeking more information about the HP 9826. I'm sure some of you know more about this than I do. He's particularly looking for information about the developement of the 9826. Joe Hi Joe, My name is Tom and my brother, Mark Allen, was one of the developers of the HP 9826. He helped implement RMB for HP and said he invented the knob that was used on that series. My brother passed away a few years ago and I inherited his production prototype of the 9826 which Mark won in a team raffle. I am preparing to donate the 9826 to (a computer museum) and I am looking for more information about it to include with the donation. I found your site in Google (http://www.classiccmp.org/hp/hp9-200.htm) and am surprised to find such detailed information about these old machines. I found your email address at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Horizon/9107/collectors.htm. Do you have any pointers to more information about the product and the team that developed it? From your descriptions it sounds like you may have worked at HP and may even have known my brother, Mark. Thank you for any information. Warm Regards, Tom From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 13 11:23:42 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Differing Atari VCS case designs Message-ID: Folks, Got a call from a friend today asking me if I'd like her VCS plus games so I'm now in possession of yet another machine but with 10 or so excellent condition boxed games, some of which I've not heard of before. However it's the machine itself that's interesting as it has a low serial (~70,000) and the case itself looks like what I call the 'US' case - extra thick edges and sculpting on the back where the joysticks etc plug in, not the plain flat back of the models I'm familiar with. I'm guessing it's one of the first UK (ie PAL signal) models since there's no CH2-3 selector switch visible and it has a TV/Game switchbox, but can anyone shed light on why the case was that thick in the first place? Shielding for US emissions regulations perhaps? Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Sun Jun 13 11:42:45 2004 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> Message-ID: Sorry I forgot to give you this info. You can email me direct at gmanuel@nospam.gmconsulting.net dropping the obvious of course. Greg Manuel -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Applegate Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 11:40 AM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 This system is free for pickup in southern NJ (Medford/Mt Laurel area). I'll be in Boston next week, so if someone up there wants it, let me know and I can drag it along in the van. This is the collection... DECstation 5000/240 processor. Includes three 32 MB memory modules (room for 12 more). SZ-12 expansion box with one RZ55 SCSI drive (300 MB?) and one RZ56 (600 MB?). SZ-12 expansion box with two RZ56 (600 MB?) drives. SCSI cables to go from processor to drive enclosure, and from one drive encloser to another. You'll need to supply your own terminator. PMAD-A board. I can't remember what this does. Four MS02 8 MB memory boards for 5000/2xx series workstations. Possibly other miscellaneous DEC cables related to this system. If you have any questions, just ask. Bob >>> FREE spam killer: http://eliminatespam.com * FREE PopUp Buster+: http://popupbuster.net From Pres at macro-inc.com Sun Jun 13 12:09:03 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <000001c45159$67b76d30$030aa8c0@bensene.com> References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040613125942.023bbc60@192.168.0.1> At 11:16 AM 6/13/2004, you wrote: >One of the early proof-of-concept designs for the Friden 130 >(http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/friden130.html) used a magnetic drum, >but in final production, Had one of those, or something very similar -- desktop unit with the CRT, in the Nav center of USS James Madison SSBN-627, a Poseidon missile boat I was on from 1972-1974. Though unofficial, and not mil-spec, it was the most reliable pieces of gear we had. We had 6 different computers (two of which used drum memories, the others were core) and tons of connected electronics. We always kept all the gear running fine, but all of it had to be repaired at one time (or more) or another during my 4 years on the boat. Never had to do anything to the Friden, it just at there and hummed contentedly. Ed Kelleher From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 12:21:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Benson 1645 plotter experience? In-Reply-To: <1087123115.24999.55.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 13, 4 10:38:36 am Message-ID: > > > Anyone ever used a Benson 1645-R plotter? No, but something you said jogged a memory of a feature of an HP plotter. > > We also have an 'SW' interface module, which has two ports on it - one > male and one female. According to the (nearly useless) documentation we > have, one is for a terminal and one for a host computer - but it doesn't THis is the bit that jogged my memoey. Some HP RS232 interfaced plotters (And, IIRC, at least one Tektronix one) could be connected between a terminal and a modem. Normally the plotter ignored the data on the serial line, and just 'connected' the terminal to the modem (and thence to the host), but if it received the right control code, it started interpretting data from the host (and didn't pass it to the terminal). The idea was so that you could have a 'local' plotter next to a dial-up terminal and didn't need a second 'phone line, modem, host computer port, etc. I wonder if your machine does something like that. The other thing is that some HP plotters were _very_ fussy about the newline caracters being correct (if they expected CR, LF, then LF, CR did not work). I asusme you've tried various end-of-line sequences > explain the point of that (i.e. whether we should be trying to drive the > thing from the terminal port or the host port). Almost certainly the host port. > > Nor does it explain what the difference between 'modem' and 'hardware' > connections are (surely the plotter knows nothing of what's actually The behaviour of the handshake lines? 'Hardware' mode might use something like RTS or DTR as a flow control line (it'll turn if off the plotter's buffer gets full) but that would cause problems (like a dropped line) is used with a real modem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 13 12:14:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <200406130807.JAA19972@citadel.metropolis.local> from "Stan Barr" at Jun 13, 4 09:07:08 am Message-ID: > > I have often wondered about using such delay lines for data storage... > > Or building a replica EDSAC?? How did you guess.. :-) Tubes of mercury are somewhat impractical (and expensive) for a home hacking project, but bits raided from old TVs would be possible. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 13 13:11:50 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <000001c45159$67b76d30$030aa8c0@bensene.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Rick Bensene wrote: > Also, the Wyle Laboratories WS-01 (precursor to the WS-02, > seen at http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/w-wyle.html), an interesting > and very early programmable calculator used a small magnetic disc > memory. More information at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/d-compucorp.html. Wow, crazy! > Earlier 'desk-sized' (not desktop) calculators, such as the Monroe > Monrobot I and II, the Clary DE-60, SCM 7816, and others, used magnetic > drum memory almost exclusively. I wonder who ended up with that batch of Monrobots that showed up in North Carolina(?) last year? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From acme at gbronline.com Sun Jun 13 16:04:23 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <1578.65.123.179.146.1086929780.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <005a01c4518a$01a454a0$fb4f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Same seems to be true on DSDD 3.5" disks -- I haven't seen them available > for several years, just the HD ones now. > > Gary Hildebrand Gary, you missed the boat -- I sold almost 1500 10-count boxes of these at $10/box last fall, and posted notes to the list about them two or three times :-( I may have a lead on more of these at a slightly higher price -- about $14 - $15 per 10-count box plus shipping -- is anyone out there interested? Later -- Glen Goodwin 0/0 TV parts, stereo parts, and hard-to-find electronic components: http://www.acme-sales.net From acme at gbronline.com Sun Jun 13 16:22:30 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Apple II floppys - revised References: <3FDE808A-BB5E-11D8-8916-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <1578.65.123.179.146.1086929780.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <005f01c4518c$89b183c0$fb4f0945@thegoodw> Oops -- my mistake -- I sold those diskettes for $10 per 10-BOX carton (total 100 diskettes) Later -- Glen Goodwin 0/0 TV parts, stereo parts, and hard-to-find electronic components: http://www.acme-sales.net From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Sat Jun 12 18:09:32 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Computer museums References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E2616231588E4@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> <40C6296B.20803@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <000001c4518c$d9395120$bb72fea9@geoff> This may be a bit late , but Bletchley Park didn't want to know about Colossus - that's why it was built at Dollis Hill by the Post Office boys ! See the current issue of Electronics World ( a.k.a. Wireless World ) for the low-down on the snooty Oxford Logic brigade. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Kolb" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 10:02 PM Subject: Re: Computer museums > Parker, Kevin wrote: > > > Planned route is ex Adelaide (South Australia) to Sydney, then Los > > Angeles (to catch up with the daughter), then New York, onto London, > > then maybe Spain, then Zurich, over to Berlin, then Tokyo, down to > > Singapore and then home. > > > > As we are in the planning phase Id' interested if anyone knows if > > there are any computer museums (or similar things of interest) in > > these locations. > > If you're in London around a weekend, you could do much worse than > travelling a bit out and visiting Bletchley Park, which was the site of > the WW2 British code-breaking effort. And they even have a computer > museum on site :) > > http://www.bletchleypark.co.uk - On some weekends they have special > events; these are often worth looking out for. > > Dan > From wacarder at usit.net Sun Jun 13 18:49:12 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: VTServer for Windows Message-ID: Does anyone on the list have a working copy of VTServer that works properly on the Windows 2000 platform? Today I was going to attempt to move an RL02 disk image from my PC to a real RL02 on a PDP-11/34, but the VTServer version that I have continuously echoes the last character that was sent from the PDP-11 to the console (in RT11, it repeatedly displays the '.', over and over. Thanks, Ashley From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 13 20:27:14 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller References: <20040611033813.22658.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> <10406110832.ZM5911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <40CCFEF2.B1FD49E0@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On Jun 10, 20:38, SHAUN RIPLEY wrote: > > I have a question about BOOT ROMS. Does a MSCP > > compatible disk controller need a boot rom to boot > > from a HD connected to it? I am ingorant about this > > issue. > Yes, it does. For Q-Bus machines, the processor card (if it's a > quad-height, ie KDF11B or KDJ11B) should have boot ROMs that can handle > MSCP, though the older ones might not behave well with bigger/later > drives. The MXV11B-2 boot ROMs can do it, and they also fit the > MRV11D. DEC boot ROMs may not always work with third-party MSCP > controllers, but such 3P controllers often have their own boot ROMs. > > You could enter an MSCP boot via ODT, but it's VERY long! Jerome Fine replies: Here is the MSCP boot code from the System Release Notes of V05.00 page 4-9 in Chapter 4: 76000 5000 76002 12701 76004 172150 76006 12704 76010 76156 76012 12705 76014 4000 76016 10102 76020 10022 76022 5712 76024 100770 76026 31205 76030 401 76032 42125 76034 1772 76036 14412 76040 6305 76042 100367 76044 105744 76046 1002 76050 10704 76052 5007 76054 5002 76056 5022 76060 20227 76062 17204 76064 103774 76066 105237 76070 17101 76072 10037 76074 17110 76076 111437 76100 17114 76102 114437 76104 17121 76106 12722 76110 17004 76112 10522 76114 12722 76116 17104 76120 10512 76122 24242 76124 5711 76126 5712 76130 100776 76132 5737 76134 17016 76136 1742 76140 0 76142 20402 76144 4400 76146 1 76150 0 76152 17204 76154 100000 It took about 4 minutes to type in here (not including the address). If really interested, we can provide the equivalent instructions in MACRO-11. I seem to remember that the drive size is NOT a problem. However, the above code is ONLY for physical UNIT=0 on CSR=172150, so there is NO choice as to what the user wants. It would probably be trivial to allow other UNITs and CSRs. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Sun Jun 13 22:02:23 2004 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: OSI Message-ID: <1d8.23e9944b.2dfe6f3f@aol.com> In a message dated 6/11/2004 11:33:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, earlj@qix.net writes: Did you ever find a home for your OSI machine? I have a lot of OSI literature to give away. I loaned one out to a mutual collector. what kind of documents do you have? Any OSI stuff sounds interesting. -- I am not willing to give up my liberties for the appearance of 'security' From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 13 22:04:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller In-Reply-To: <40CCFEF2.B1FD49E0@compsys.to> References: <20040611033813.22658.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> <10406110832.ZM5911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <40CCFEF2.B1FD49E0@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200406140308.XAA18247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Here is the MSCP boot code from the System Release Notes of V05.00 > page 4-9 in Chapter 4: [...] > If really interested, we can provide the equivalent instructions in > MACRO-11. 076000: clr r0 [005000] 076002: mov #172150,r1 [012701 172150] 076006: mov #076156,r4 [012704 076156] 076012: mov #004000,r5 [012705 004000] 076016: mov r1,r2 [010102] 076020: mov r0,(r2)+ [010022] 076022: tst (r2) [005712] 076024: bmi 076006 [100770] 076026: bit (r2),r5 [031205] 076030: br 076034 [000401] 076032: bic (r1)+,(r5)+ [042125] 076034: beq 076022 [001772] 076036: mov -(r4),(r2) [014412] 076040: asl r5 [006305] 076042: bpl 076022 [100367] 076044: tstb -(r4) [105744] 076046: bne 076054 [001002] 076050: mov pc,r4 [010704] 076052: clr pc [005007] 076054: clr r2 [005002] 076056: clr (r2)+ [005022] 076060: cmp r2,#017204 [020227 017204] 076064: blo 076056 [103774] 076066: incb @#017101 [105237 017101] 076072: mov r0,@#017110 [010037 017110] 076076: movb (r4),@#017114 [111437 017114] 076102: movb -(r4),@#017121 [114437 017121] 076106: mov #017004,(r2)+ [012722 017004] 076112: mov r5,(r2)+ [010522] 076114: mov #017104,(r2)+ [012722 017104] 076120: mov r5,(r2) [010512] 076122: cmp -(r2),-(r2) [024242] 076124: tst (r1) [005711] 076126: tst (r2) [005712] 076130: bmi 076126 [100776] 076132: tst @#017016 [005737 017016] 076136: beq 076044 [001742] 076140: halt [000000] 076142: cmp r4,r2 [020402] 076144: jsr r4,r0 [004400] 076146: wait [000001] 076150: halt [000000] 076152: mov @100000(r2),r4 [017204 100000] Of course, this is assuming the transcription given was correct. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 14 02:20:12 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Qbus hard disk controller In-Reply-To: der Mouse "Re: Qbus hard disk controller" (Jun 13, 23:04) References: <20040611033813.22658.qmail@web51808.mail.yahoo.com> <10406110832.ZM5911@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <40CCFEF2.B1FD49E0@compsys.to> <200406140308.XAA18247@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <10406140820.ZM9263@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 13, 23:04, der Mouse wrote: >On Jun 13, 21:27, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Here is the MSCP boot code from the System Release Notes of V05.00 > > page 4-9 in Chapter 4: [...] > > > If really interested, we can provide the equivalent instructions in > > MACRO-11. > > 076000: clr r0 [005000] [ ... ] > 076152: mov @100000(r2),r4 [017204 100000] Thanks for that, both. I actually have the reconstruction of the MACRO code: ;This is the MSCP bootstrap as listed in the RT-11 5.6 INS manual ... ; along with its disassembly (by hand!). Additional comments and ; attempts to make "nicer" assembly by ; Bob Schor bschor@vms.cis.pitt.edu (412) 647-2116 (w) ; ;Missing word (at 76102) and most of the explanation supplied by ; Jim Crapuchettes jimc@netcom.com 408-732-0569 ; .asect . = 42 .word 1000 ;-; Set stack pointer for RT-11 - don't "toggle" in . = 76000 ; The contents of R0 must be the MSCP unit number. Although it is set to 0 ; below, it could be manually set to some other value and then execution ; started at 76002. start: clr r0 ;76000/5000 ;; Preset register to 0 (unit) mov #172150, r1 ;76002/12701 ;; Point to IP register ;76004/172150 1$: mov #itabl, r4 ;76006/12704 ;; Point to init/cmd params ;76010/76156 mov #4000, r5 ;76012/12705 ;; Set init step to 1 ;76014/4000 ; Do 4-step controller initialization. Begin by writing any value to IP to ; reset the controller; all the rest of initialization is done through SA. mov r1, r2 ;76016/10102 ;; Copy IP address, write to mov r0, (r2)+ ;76020/10022 ;; IP to init & bump to SA 2$: tst (r2) ;76022/5712 ;; Test for error bit in SA bmi 1$ ;76024/100770 ;; Error = start init again bit (r2), r5 ;76026/31205 ;; Test step bit in SA br 3$ ;76030/401 ;; ????, appears to skip next bic (r1)+, (r5)+ ;76032/42125 ;; ????, seems to be skipped 3$: beq 2$ ;76034/1772 ;; Wait for next step ready mov -(r4),(r2) ;76036/14412 ;; Next init param to SA asl r5 ;76040/6305 ;; Move to next init step bpl 2$ ;76042/100367 ;; Loop thru 4 steps ; Bring unit on-line, read bootstrap (block 0) from the disk and start it up. 4$: tstb -(r4) ;76044/105744 ;; Point to next cmd byte bne 5$ ;76046/1002 ;; Loop thru commands mov pc, r4 ;76050/10704 ;; Point r4 to "clr pc" and clr pc ;76052/5007 ;; go start at location 0 5$: clr r2 ;76054/5002 ;; Init for clearing memory 6$: clr (r2)+ ;76056/5022 ;; Clear memory from loc 0 cmp r2, #17204 ;76060/20227 ;; thru loc 17202 ;76062/17204 blo 6$ ;76064/103774 ;; Loop until done incb @#17101 ;76066/105237 ;; Packet length = 400 bytes ;76070/17101 mov r0, @#17110 ;76072/10037 ;; Set unit number = 0 ;76074/17110 movb (r4), @#17114 ;76076/111437 ;; Move command to cmd pkt ;76100/17114 movb -(r4), @#17121 ;76102/114437 ;; Set parameter from table ;76104/17121 mov #17004, (r2)+ ;76106/12722 ;; Set response packet de- ;76110/17004 ;; scriptor: low 16 address mov r5, (r2)+ ;76112/10522 ;; bits & PortOwn bit mov #17104, (r2)+ ;76114/12722 ;; Set command packet de- ;76116/17104 ;; scriptor: low 16 address mov r5, (r2) ;76120/10512 ;; bits & PortOwn bit cmp -(r2),-(r2) ;76122/24242 ;; Point back to resp desc tst (r1) ;76124/5711 ;; Poll controller to start 7$: tst (r2) ;76126/5712 ;; Wait for resp desc PO bit bmi 7$ ;76130/100776 ;; => 0 == response received tst @#17016 ;76132/5737 ;; Status byte = success (0)? ;76134/17016 beq 4$ ;76136/1742 ;; Yes, go to next command stop: halt ;76140/0 ;; No, stop here... ; NOTE: This table MUST be - immediately preceeded by a zero byte (the HALT ; instruction) because it is the "end-of-table" marker; and immediately ; precede the Initialization Step Parameter table since a single register ; points first to the IStep Params (1 word each) and then to the commands ; (1 byte for the command, 1 byte for the parameter), passing through them ; in reverse. .byte 2 ;; Set byte count to 1000 for OP.RD .byte 41 ;; OP.RD = ReaD .byte 0 ;; 0 parameter for OP.ONL .byte 11 ;; OP.ONL = ON Line ;; .word 20402 ;76142/20402 ;; .word 4400 ;76144/4400 .word 1 ;76146/1 ;; IS4: GO bit .word 0 ;76150/0 ;; IS3: Ring base high address .word 17204 ;76152/17204 ;; IS2: Ring base low address .word 100000 ;76154/100000 ;; IS1: bits- ;; [15] = 1, [14] (WR) = 0, [13:11] (cmd ring ;; size) = 0, [10:8] (resp ring size) = 0, [7] ;; (IE) = 0, [6:0] (int vect/4) = 0 :: command ;; and response rings = 1 element, no inter- ;; rupts and no interrupt vector. itabl =: . ;need pointer to end of table ;76000g to start ODT .end stop ;For RT-11 only, don't "toggle" in IIRC, the wierdness at 076026 is because the original RT11 code was broken. Around 5.3 it got patched to work with the RQDX3 (which sometimes sets more than one bit in the SA). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jun 14 02:39:07 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Datapoint 2200 going cheap on Ebay Message-ID: <40CD561B.2070002@pacbell.net> This machine figures prominently in the history of the 8008 microprocessor, though it in fact uses a TTL implementation of that architecture. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5100920655 --Bill From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 14 06:09:54 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: T&C and such.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> The Terms & Conditions of the VCM are standard and fair. While not wanting to get into a discussion on the entire set of T&C of VCM (or any other entity), the local juristicion issue is one that is indeed quite common and IMHO quite necessary. I am a (small) independent software developer. All of my contracts (i.e. those originated by my firm) contain this clause. I also work on a significant number of projects where the client has created the contract. Their contracts contain the same clause (i.e. legal proceedings must be local to THEM). It is a series of trade-off's. Many (most?) disputes are in a range that is covered by a "small claims" court, where the parties represent themselves [no attorney/solicitor]. Since the case must be heard at some physical location I see only four possibilities: 1) One of the two locations agreed to at contract signing. 2) The defendants location 3) The litigants location 4) PSC 468 Box 400 (South Pole Station) so we could see Ethan's wonderful collection! I doubt anyone would agree to item #4... Items 2 and 3 each present problems of bias. If the defendants location is consistantly chosen, it becomes virtually impossible to ever sue since the cost of travel to the destination would often exceed the amount of the suit. The reverse is true if the litigants location is always chosen, suits could become rampant since the defendant would spend more on travel than the cost of the suit. This leaves item #1 as the least of the evils. In my 20+ years in business, I have been both helped and hindered by this. Last November a customer in California (I am in New York) refused payment on work after nearly $3000 of usable product had been delivered, I had to take this as a write-off. About 2 years ago, a client many allegations against my firm, but since substantiating them (ie bringing a civil suit) would have involved travel from Europe to the US, the matter was (semi-)resolved, and then dropped. Not an ideal solution, I agree. But unless someone forms a legally binding Internet court [GOD FORBID!], I do believe these are the options we have. David. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 14 06:32:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Legalities.. In-Reply-To: <200405261732.NAA15807@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: >>> So if I buy a GM car and GM has cause to sue me over it, they'll file in Michigan rather than Quebec? (Or wherever their head office is - I'm assuming Detroit.) First, I am NOT a lawyer, my brother-in-law IS, and specializes in corporate litigation. There are circumstances where GM (or any other company) would file suit locally, and compel you to appear (or declare you in default of the case). As a non-US citizen, they can not do this [except for some VERY rare circumstances], but thay can (and likely would) petition you local court to hear the case, UNDER THE LEGAL STATUTES OF WHERE THE SUIT ORIGINATED! Canada and most of the EU countries follow this policy (with reciprocity). A case the might trigger this type of action, would be if you purchased a car, to a patented component, and began to manufacturer (and sell) a replacement THAT WAS IN VIOLATION OF THE PATENT. So be careful over generalizations....... David. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 14 06:36:42 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside a computer? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040526150855.007b8380@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Aside from the assorted small dead animal (typically rodent)..... In 1994 +/- I acquired an old PDP-11. Inside was a packet of papers (carefully conceled in a sealed envelope) that contained a persons divorce decree as well as last will and testement. These did NOT belong to the previous owner, but rather (after some research) to an employee of the owner before that! From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 14 10:29:08 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Legalities.. References: Message-ID: FYI GM is headquartered in the Renaissance Center in downtown Detroit (The big 7-tower skyscraper you see in almost all Detroit promotional material) It used to be in the New Center area just outside of downtown, in a *really* cool Albert Kahn designed building, which is now state of Michigan offices (A Kahn and Van Der Rohe deciple, Saarinen, designed the GM Technical Center in Warren, MI). Ford headquarters is a big campus in Dearborn, just west of Detroit, on M-10, the Southfield freeway, and Michigan Ave. Daimler-Chrysler North America (Formerly Chrysler) is in Auburn Hills on I-75, about half an hour north of Detroit. And no, there isn't a good way of getting old I.T. out of any of them, they lease everything, and have been for many years. The old stuff gets pushed onto off-lease buyers, or the dump. My friend, who's dad is an IT guy at DCX, did manage to snag an IBM RS/6000 notebook, though :) ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Legalities.. > > >>> So if I buy a GM car and GM has cause to sue me over it, they'll file in > Michigan rather than Quebec? (Or wherever their head office is - I'm > assuming Detroit.) > > First, I am NOT a lawyer, my brother-in-law IS, and specializes in corporate > litigation. > > There are circumstances where GM (or any other company) would file suit > locally, and compel you to appear (or declare you in default of the case). > As a non-US citizen, they can not do this [except for some VERY rare > circumstances], but thay can (and likely would) petition you local court to > hear the case, UNDER THE LEGAL STATUTES OF WHERE THE SUIT ORIGINATED! Canada > and most of the EU countries follow this policy (with reciprocity). > > A case the might trigger this type of action, would be if you purchased a > car, to a patented component, and began to manufacturer (and sell) a > replacement THAT WAS IN VIOLATION OF THE PATENT. > > > So be careful over generalizations....... > > David. > > > From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Jun 13 05:58:20 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> References: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> Message-ID: <40CC334C.9060505@hp.com> Bob Applegate wrote: > PMAD-A board. I can't remember what this does. This is a Turbochannel Ethernet controller. AUI interface. /wai-sun From waisun.chia at hp.com Sun Jun 13 06:01:04 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40CC33F0.4020300@hp.com> G Manuel (GMC) wrote: > What are the power requirements for this unit? I am right over the bridge in > Philly and can come pick it up. It would be my first DEC. > The 5000/240 comes/came in a pretty small pizza-like desktop box. Almost like a Sparcstation. In fact it is so small, that it cannot fit high-end disks of those days which came in full-height 5.25", therefore it required expansion cabinets for disks/tapes. /wai-sun From sieler at allegro.com Sun Jun 13 15:18:04 2004 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: MIT Dumbkopf 1 computer In-Reply-To: <004001c450f9$6b073610$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <40CC540C.22469.154B32@localhost> Ed writes: > define > > smarmy http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=smarmy -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Jun 13 16:29:21 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server><1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain><20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net><003101c44fe5$cdd35220$6401a8c0@hal9000> <019b01c450b9$de68d2c0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: <001c01c4518d$7e50ce40$6401a8c0@hal9000> Paul, The reference came from an old Google search for "cctech" and floppy interfaces which pointed to a posting by a "Mike" with an address like: dogas@bellsouth.net I tried sending an Email but got no response. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Pennington" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:14 PM Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive Steven wrote: Anyone have the Kilobaud article where someone connected a FDD to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? I just looked through my end of year indexes for my Kilobaud/Microcomputing magazines, but I didn't see this article (or any ET-3400 articles, for that matter). Sometimes the titles hide the contents pretty well. If you can come up with an issue citation, I can make a copy of the article. Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From cannings at earthlink.net Sun Jun 13 17:50:09 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it References: <200406120035.RAA06245@clulw009.amd.com> <000701c450d1$16f44270$6401a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000501c45198$c9885350$6401a8c0@hal9000> Actually, truth be known, I think I would just "opt" for a catweasel and call it good. There is one on Ebay now with two days left currently, at $26! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?viewItem&category=4598&item=5101020898& rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Canning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:00 PM Subject: Re: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Instead of speculating, lets run some numbers with the following presumptions; 1.. The spindle motor is running and the disk is up-to-speed (300 RPM) 2.. The head(s) have been stepped to track "zero" so we know what track we are on 3.. We will be getting data from head "zero" 4.. For the moment we will ignore the directory, so we don't know the starting sector # 5.. Worst-case through-put for a 1.44 MD 3.5 " Disk (500 K"bits"/second minimum) 6.. Tracks per disk "80" (per side) 7.. Sectors per track "18" (1440 total per side) 8.. 512 bytes per sector (737280 "raw" bytes per side with overhead) 9.. One track contains 9,216 bytes (73,728 bits) with overhead 10.. 300 RPM equals 5 Rev / Second 11.. Absolute "best-case" scenario 5 Rev times 73,728 bits = 368640 bits / sec or 46 KB/sec 12.. A modern EPP (Enhanced Parallel Port) can easily support >1 MB/sec The parallel port should easily be able to support the data from a Floppy Disk Drive if a DSP or FDContoller converts the data to parallel. If you dumped a tracks worth of data you would have to write software to put the sectors in the proper sequence (most likely contiguous but not necessarily in ORDER) because your file can be spread across sectors all over the disk (even the backside). Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Friday, June 11, 2004 5:35 PM Subject: Re: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it Hi I doubt one can fetch data with most PC's from the parallel port fast enough to keep from being overrun, even on a byte wise basis. That is why I've suggest the DSP. May of these can run fast enough to do it on a BIT wise basis and require no external hardware, other than buffers. Dwight From: "Steven Canning" I've been looking into this for some time. The parallel port lacks the "through-put" to take the data on and off the floppy as serial data (as it comes off the drive "raw") but if you added some hardware (like a Western Digital FD controller) it will separate the data and convert it to "parallel" data which the parallel port can support. The inverse is also true (parallel data back to serial to fed the drive). The FDC can handle the Single density issue. Processing power of the computer is not an issue unless you have a painfully slow machine. I wish I had more time to work on this project. Anyone have the Kilobaud article were someone connected a FDD to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 2:55 PM Subject: Parallel drive (was: USB 5.25" floppy drive - do it On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: Not sure if such as a PC parallel port is fast enough to cope with the data rate of a floppy drive and leave enough time for the CPU to do the processing though... but that'd be nice; little more than a cable and a bit of glue logic hooked up to a parallel port that could be quickly swapped between machines. MicroSolutions (DeKalb IL) in their "BackPack" line, made parallel port floppy drives. I have a 2.8M 3.5" from them, but they also made a lot of other models. From esharpe at cox.net Sun Jun 13 18:57:32 2004 From: esharpe at cox.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! Message-ID: <01cc01c451a2$31883b60$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> was going through some books to add to the reference library here at the museum and ran across a most excellent book Computer Structures: Readings and Examples by Gordon Bell..... has the inside facts on many early system and even the 9100A HP calc. also to my surprise I found it online at the below listed url. http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html If you have plesnty of disc space you may want to archive it in case this link ever goes away.... Happy reading! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From pzachary at sasquatch.com Sun Jun 13 20:05:40 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pavl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Wanted: M9312 ROMs and DATA IO help In-Reply-To: <000901c4437a$72da0b60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20040526094306.B7023790046@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> <000901c4437a$72da0b60$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <04061318054001.00933@localhost.localdomain> I was using the unit correctly, I just had a couple bad "blank" chips. So thanks all for the pointers, the unit was really easy to use once I got some new chips. I've spent some time and made more than a tube worth of boot roms this weekend, the next thing is getting images posted and writing some of my own. Has anyone got a dd(tu58) image or a rom I can copy? Of course the roms were/are copyrighted? I very much doubt anyone will care, how about it, anyone on the list object? What if I offered to make roms for others for some nominal fee (by the time I buy a blank,wrap it, mail it, etc. it might be $10)? Pavl_ On Wednesday 26 May 2004 04:37 pm, you wrote: > sure I'll host it. I'll just put it under www.classiccmp.org/M9312 > > Someone just give me the files! > > Jay > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "John A. Dundas III" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 6:31 PM > Subject: Re: Wanted: M9312 ROMs > > > I agree with Fred: I'd like to see an electronic library of 9312 > > bootstraps that we could all share and download as necessary. I have > > a /84 and /70 that I'd like to get images for (TK50, etc.) that I > > don't already have. Burning an EPROM seems like an easy way to go. > > > > Any images already archived? > > > > Any volunteers to host a collection? > > > > John From sml49 at comcast.net Sun Jun 13 20:54:29 2004 From: sml49 at comcast.net (Seth Lewin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <200406110449.i5B4nAhi053636@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 6/10 Chris wrote: > >> None of the goodwill/salvation army stores near my home in NE Massachusetts >> will even accept computers of any kind for donations. That really annoys >> me, both from a donatig and a collecting perspective. > > The one near me had the same policy. They would refuse them, and if they > were left when the place was closed, they would chuck the CPU in the > dumpster and sell whatever parts and software was left. I happened to be cruising past the recycling area at my town disposal area Saturday and scored a tangerine-colored iMac someone had put out, keyboard, mouse and all. Apparently it had been slightly bastardized at some point - it has a 233 mhz G3 Rev A motherboard swapped in instead of the 266 rev B it should have, also no hard drive but otherwise fine; booted from an OS 9 CD without a hitch. I wondered when I'd start to see machines of this vintage (early 1999) being chucked - now I have my answer. I'll leave it at a place where I do a little consulting once I install a drive and it'll save me dragging my heavy old 1997-vintage PowerBook back and forth. This is a perfectly useful machine - has 192 mb RAM - I figure I'll install OS 10.3.4 on it and use it to write and to cruise the web. Hardly a scratch on the case, too. A bargain even after buying it an 80 gig drive and a 3-button mouse. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Jun 14 08:10:59 2004 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: OSI In-Reply-To: <40C9B511.46A9@qix.net> References: <40C9B511.46A9@qix.net> Message-ID: What kind of literature? I rescued a couple of osi systems a while back and have no info on them whatsoever. I found a challenger C1P and a Challenger II. -Bob >Hello Dave, > >Did you ever find a home for your OSI machine? >I have a lot of OSI literature to give away. > >Earl Morris -- bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 14 09:05:13 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:29 2005 Subject: Cromemco Information Needed Message-ID: <200406141405.i5EE5CvK026938@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I need as much information as possible - but at least the DIP switch settings - for a Cromemco 64KZ II memory board. Note, this is the 64KZ II, which is a different board from the Cromemco 64KZ (No "II"). If someone has a manual that they will loan me, I will scan it into a PDF file and return it. Thanks, Barry Watzman Watzman@neo.rr.com From Watzman at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 14 09:12:00 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Expando-RAM Information Needed Message-ID: <200406141412.i5EEBwvK003175@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> I need a manual for an "Expando-RAM" 64k S-100 memory card (sold by S.D. Sales). There were several variants of this card, the one that I have is Revision E, it has two DIP switches at the top, the one at "U1" is 4 position, the one at U2 is 8 position (many of these have a smaller DIP switch at U2). Also, there are various jumpers all over the board, a dozen or more. Thanks for any help that you can provide, Barry Watzman Watzman@neo.rr.com From ernestls at comcast.net Mon Jun 14 10:08:00 2004 From: ernestls at comcast.net (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside acomputer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001501c45221$62b53e20$bf6d1018@ernest> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 4:37 AM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside > acomputer? > > Aside from the assorted small dead animal (typically rodent)..... > > In 1994 +/- I acquired an old PDP-11. Inside was a packet of papers > (carefully conceled in a sealed envelope) that contained a persons divorce > decree as well as last will and testement. These did NOT belong to the > previous owner, but rather (after some research) to an employee of the > owner > before that! That's creepy! It's sort of like finding someone's diary. Did you return the documents to the original owner? From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 14 13:02:21 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: <40CC33F0.4020300@hp.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > G Manuel (GMC) wrote: > > What are the power requirements for this unit? I am right over the bridge in > > Philly and can come pick it up. It would be my first DEC. > > > The 5000/240 comes/came in a pretty small pizza-like desktop box. Almost > like a Sparcstation. In fact it is so small, that it cannot fit high-end > disks of those days which came in full-height 5.25", therefore it > required expansion cabinets for disks/tapes. Its very easy to mount a standard 3.5" 1"-high 2G disk in the right corner, behind the memory banks. Doesnt usually heat up the system. I run it with RZ28-L's, all is dandy. --f From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 14 13:04:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! In-Reply-To: <01cc01c451a2$31883b60$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > was going through some books to add to the reference library here at the > museum and ran across a most excellent book > > Computer Structures: Readings and Examples by Gordon Bell..... has the > inside facts on many early system and even the 9100A HP calc. > > also to my surprise I found it online at the below listed url. > > > http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html > > If you have plesnty of disc space you may want to archive it in case > this link ever goes away.... It won't. Gordon Bell is a huge believer in permanent web archiving. He puts everything online now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 14 13:15:15 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. Message-ID: >This is a >perfectly useful machine - has 192 mb RAM - I figure I'll install OS 10.3.4 >on it and use it to write and to cruise the web. OS X will perform like poop with only 192 MB of ram. Doable, but you will be MUCH MUCH happier going beyond 256 MB. The catch with the Rev A boards is, they don't "officially" support 256 MB SO-DIMS. 128's are the largest they are supposed to handle. However, as long as you get 8x64 chips (as opposed to the newer 8x32), they seem to work fine. Also, watch out when you buy RAM, anything that goes in the lower RAM slot must be Low Profile SO-DIMMs. Larger ones won't fit. And also, some of the ram slots have metal retaining clips, those have been known to touch the pins on the ram chips keeping them from being seen. If you have one with metal clips, just tape off the edge of the ram chip to keep the clips from shorting them. -chris From pspan at amerytel.net Mon Jun 14 13:29:22 2004 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free DEC 11/34 Boards Message-ID: <002201c4523d$8376cc20$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hi all, I have some boards out of a DEC 11/34 sytstem to give away. All you need to do is pay shipping. UPS ground charges. If no one is interested, then they will go to the scrap man on Wednesday. To be fair to everyone, I will send to the person closest to the number I have picked between 1 and 100. Here is the list of boards: 1 ea M9302 1 ea M9202 1 ea M7258 1 ea M7762 2 ea M7856 1 ea M7819 and 3 EMULEX boards 1 ea TU1110406, SU1210401 & TU1110401. These boards came out of a Telcom's billing system, but were not treated very gently when removed. Hope everyone is having a good day. Please email me back privately with your number guess by noon tuesday 6-15-04 CST. Thanks. Phil From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 14 13:29:51 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever found inside acomputer? In-Reply-To: <001501c45221$62b53e20$bf6d1018@ernest> Message-ID: They were returned (re-sealed) to the company where the person was employed. We had been unable to locate the person directly. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ernest >>> Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 11:08 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever >>> found inside acomputer? >>> >>> >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] >>> > On Behalf Of David V. Corbin >>> > Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 4:37 AM >>> > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> > Subject: RE: What's the weirdest thing that you've ever >>> found inside >>> > acomputer? >>> > >>> > Aside from the assorted small dead animal (typically rodent)..... >>> > >>> > In 1994 +/- I acquired an old PDP-11. Inside was a packet >>> of papers >>> > (carefully conceled in a sealed envelope) that contained a persons >>> divorce >>> > decree as well as last will and testement. These did NOT >>> belong to the >>> > previous owner, but rather (after some research) to an >>> employee of the >>> > owner before that! >>> >>> That's creepy! It's sort of like finding someone's diary. >>> >>> Did you return the documents to the original owner? >>> >>> From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 14 13:40:31 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1087238430.2282.8.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> > > > Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM > > recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? Standards schmandards, we have lots of standards! If you want to read any possible floppy format, then the only thing you can rely on is transitions to/from 0/1, and the DSP approach is about right. As others point out, the WD chips are the sloppiest in terms of what their state machines insist on the NEC 765 is a pain. PS: The old Micromation floppy controller (CP/M 1.4 days) used NEITHER chip family, did their own formatin LS TTL, and practically no one can read them. You can probably do all this in a PC sound card these days! From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 14 13:42:12 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Vax help - lost passwords Message-ID: <200406141442.12935.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Over the weekend with a lot of help my VAXstation II/GPX was brought to life. We had to swap memory and processor cards with a spare I had in the garage. It now comes up with the Ultrix login screen This morning I fired up my the VAX in the BA23 case and it too came to life running VMS 5.4. with a nice login prompt. The question is how do I get past the login prompts to reset the passwords. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAzfGELPrIaE/xBZARApVZAKC2sreBbEY/MMuIJuZXtpMQSFbAxwCgwad8 uP1qku5OeToTDpM8nU7ALi8= =z4Ts -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 14 13:47:41 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087238861.2282.15.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> On Fri, 2004-06-11 at 16:05, Tony Duell wrote: > However. it's not standard on non-standard controllers, ... And there you have it in a nutshell! From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 14 13:56:02 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <200406121408.33301.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406121408.33301.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1087239362.2282.23.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> On Sat, 2004-06-12 at 12:08, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It was a Delay Line, part number > > ADL-CN037. I forgot who the manufacturer was, but it was someone big > > and established (GE maybe)? > > > > Anyone know what this is? > > Probably just a "standard" mercury delay line. They are only "lumped constant" delay lines, generally inductors and capacitors, that delay a pulse, usually no more than a few microseconds. They contain no mercury, just coils and capacitors. They're usually small, like .5" x .5" x 4" plus or minus a factor of 4. They're pretty common in older surplus, and have little value (unless you need one :-) > Some early machines used large versions as their primary storage, they > functioned somewhat like a (more) solid-state drum memory. Columns of mercury were used as computer memory for a short time, but they were ACOUSTIC, not electrical, data storage. They are large, cumbersome, expensive, toxic and valuable, there's a relatively small (few hundred lbs) of Hg related junk and a rack or two of support logic. The chances of finding a computer mercury delay line memory are slim these days. They originated in WWII radar, where they were used to remember the last received signal pass, so they could detect differences with the current signal pass, and cancel out stuff that didn't change. From thompson at new.rr.com Mon Jun 14 13:56:26 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Vax help - lost passwords In-Reply-To: <200406141442.12935.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200406141442.12935.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Mike Kenzie wrote: > > Over the weekend with a lot of help my VAXstation II/GPX was brought to > life. We had to swap memory and processor cards with a spare I had in the > garage. It now comes up with the Ultrix login screen > > This morning I fired up my the VAX in the BA23 case and it too came to life > running VMS 5.4. with a nice login prompt. > > The question is how do I get past the login prompts to reset the passwords. > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/ This is a FAQ item here From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 14 13:57:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: <1087238430.2282.8.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> References: <1086965086.15873.360.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406112134.ZM6399@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087238430.2282.8.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: <1087239432.26297.22.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 18:40, Tom Jennings wrote: > > > > > Question is, is this a standard? I mean, for any disk using MFM or FM > > > recording are these bit patterns going to be the same? > > Standards schmandards, we have lots of standards! > > If you want to read any possible floppy format, then the only thing you > can rely on is transitions to/from 0/1, and the DSP approach is about > right. That does seem to be the case from what others have said so far. I should have actually made myself a bit clearer - in that I'm only interested in backing up floppies and being able to restore them later. I don't need to actually understand the contents on the machine which is performing the backup. Having said that, I'd rather not have each floppy take up several megabytes due to overampling of the data stream - so I do still need to make sense of bit transitions and record those. "being able to restore them later" is perhaps a seperate project - I'd be almost content just knowing that I had a copy of the raw data from a floppy in the event of failure, even if currently I had no way of restoring it. Being able to do this from one platform, at least for any FM/MFM encoded soft-sectored floppy (which for me is what 99% of my collection uses) is pretty desirable. If I had room I'd have all my machines set up and laid out - but as it stands nearly everything has to reside stored away, which means it's a pain to do anything as soon as some new software lands on the doorstep. cheers Jules From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 14 13:58:47 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087239526.2282.27.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> On Sat, 2004-06-12 at 12:30, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: So what I should have asked (what I meant to ask) is does anyone > have any data on this part to determine how long the delay is? I'm > thinking it would be neat to try to use this (or a number of these in > series) to create a delay line memory to experiment with. Little lumped-constant delays I doubt could hold more than 1 - 3 bits, with a big bag of support logic. But, you could play with one with an o'scope. DL's require correct termination impedance, often 50 ohms. You put a (say) 10nS pulse in one end, and it appears, delayed by more-than-the-speed-of-light, at the other end. If you don't get the terminating impedances correct the pulse will reflect and mess it up (the pulse, that is). From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 14 14:01:16 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Classics near Winchester, Hampshire, UK ? Message-ID: <200406141501.16827.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I've just heard that there will be an empty suitecase traveling my way from Worthycote, Milnthorpe Lane, Winchester, Hampshire, UK. This is my chance to get a British micro for my collection. Are there any surplus classic machines in the area? Unfortunately the suiteaces will be filled for the return trip - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAzfX8LPrIaE/xBZARAlCZAJ0UrDRE4YCUvrmjGm/5CRlWazsw+QCeJeN/ 2IikOKRt4yE/7YFKwOXbals= =n1n1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 14 14:11:47 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Classics near Winchester, Hampshire, UK ? In-Reply-To: <200406141501.16827.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <004501c45243$70f7f000$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I've just heard that there will be an empty suitecase > traveling my way from > Worthycote, Milnthorpe Lane, Winchester, Hampshire, UK. > > This is my chance to get a British micro for my collection. > > Are there any surplus classic machines in the area? > > Unfortunately the suiteaces will be filled for the return trip > If suitecase was a typo for suitcase, then no. Otherwise be sure to have a butcher's at this after unwrapping: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=51021 29686&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 14 15:08:59 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <1087239362.2282.23.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> Message-ID: > They originated in WWII radar, where they were used to remember the last > received signal pass, so they could detect differences with the current > signal pass, and cancel out stuff that didn't change. Just post war, actually, at least in Allied radars. The Germans had some sort of MTI technology in World War 2, but I don't know what they used. The only World War 2 radar set that used a liquid delay line is the AN/APQ-15, a spoofer. It used an odd oil I have never heard of before, filled into a tank. A received pulse was amplified and sent to a transducer in the tank. The (now) acoustic pulse would bounce around in a semi-random pattern, and another transducer would pic up these echoes, then retransmitted back to the offending radar. The idea was that one AN/APQ-15 could "look" like a whole squadron of bombers, simulated in a tank of oil. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 14 15:28:30 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087244910.3109.2.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 13:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > They originated in WWII radar, where they were used to remember the last > > received signal pass, so they could detect differences with the current > > signal pass, and cancel out stuff that didn't change. > > Just post war, actually, at least in Allied radars. The Germans had some > sort of MTI technology in World War 2, but I don't know what they used. Got my chronology wrong, thanks for the repair! (They were also *analog* memories, not digital, and used no refresh, the data being replaced every scan, so they were probably a lot easier to implement than digital ones.) > AN/APQ-15, a spoofer. It used an odd oil I have never heard of before, > filled into a tank. A received pulse was amplified and sent to a > transducer in the tank. The (now) acoustic pulse would bounce around in a > semi-random pattern, and another transducer would pic up these echoes, > then retransmitted back to the offending radar. The idea was that one > AN/APQ-15 could "look" like a whole squadron of bombers, simulated in a > tank of oil. Shows what you can do with a little ingenuity and (very) little technology. From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 14 15:29:17 2004 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free DEC 11/34 Boards In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:29:22 CDT." <002201c4523d$8376cc20$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Message-ID: <200406142029.i5EKTHI14132@mwave.heeltoe.com> Ok, my guess is 3! I have an 11/34... -brad "Phil Spanner" wrote: >Hi all, > >I have some boards out of a DEC 11/34 sytstem to give away. All you need to do > is pay shipping. UPS ground charges. If no one is interested, then they will >go to the scrap man on Wednesday. > >To be fair to everyone, I will send to the person closest to the number I have > picked between 1 and 100. Here is the list of boards: > >1 ea M9302 >1 ea M9202 >1 ea M7258 >1 ea M7762 >2 ea M7856 >1 ea M7819 >and 3 EMULEX boards >1 ea TU1110406, SU1210401 & TU1110401. > >These boards came out of a Telcom's billing system, but were not treated very >gently when removed. > >Hope everyone is having a good day. Please email me back privately with your n >umber guess by noon tuesday 6-15-04 CST. > >Thanks. > >Phil > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 14 15:40:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <001c01c4518d$7e50ce40$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> <003101c44fe5$cdd35220$6401a8c0@hal9000> <019b01c450b9$de68d2c0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040614164001.0085e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Dogas is Mike Haas who lives in Brunswick, Ga. He's a member of this list. That is a good E-mail address for him. Joe At 02:29 PM 6/13/04 -0700, you wrote: >Paul, > >The reference came from an old Google search for "cctech" and floppy >interfaces which pointed to a posting by a "Mike" with an address like: >dogas@bellsouth.net I tried sending an Email but got no response. > >Best regards, Steven > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Paul Pennington" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:14 PM >Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive > > > Steven wrote: > > Anyone have the Kilobaud article where someone connected a FDD >to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? > > I just looked through my end of year indexes for my >Kilobaud/Microcomputing magazines, but I didn't see this article (or any >ET-3400 articles, for that matter). Sometimes the titles hide the contents >pretty well. If you can come up with an issue citation, I can make a copy >of the article. > > Paul Pennington >Augusta, Georgia > > > > > From carsten at brasholt.dk Mon Jun 14 15:49:57 2004 From: carsten at brasholt.dk (Carsten Brasholt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? Message-ID: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> Hi all, I've just been looking through a box of old computer-stuff and found the following small item: It looks like a cartridge (8x5cm) for an Amstrad with a passthrough edge connector and a lead (70cm) comming out with a 5-pin DIN plug (male) at the end. On the label it says: Cirkit Prestel Link Amstrad Interface Any help appreciated. Searches on Google gives nothing! Cheers, Carsten From lists at microvax.org Mon Jun 14 16:09:06 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? In-Reply-To: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> Message-ID: <200406142209.06612.lists@microvax.org> On Monday 14 June 2004 21:49, Carsten Brasholt wrote: > On the label it says: > > Cirkit > Prestel Link > Amstrad Interface Prestel is/was an interactive service that usually used screens of textual information, much like Teletext but you could do a lot more with it. I think - i'm too young to have used it! alex/melt From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 14 16:16:16 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? In-Reply-To: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> Message-ID: <40CE15A0.1010603@srv.net> Carsten Brasholt wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just been looking through a box of old computer-stuff and found > the following small item: > > It looks like a cartridge (8x5cm) for an Amstrad with a passthrough > edge connector and a lead (70cm) comming out with a 5-pin DIN plug > (male) at the end. > > On the label it says: > > Cirkit > Prestel Link Prestel was a British dial-up service. > Amstrad Interface > Probably (part of) a modem. > Any help appreciated. Searches on Google gives nothing! > > Cheers, > Carsten > From gmanuel at gmconsulting.net Mon Jun 14 16:07:51 2004 From: gmanuel at gmconsulting.net (G Manuel (GMC)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 In-Reply-To: <00f901c45095$a20b1140$3f01a8c0@bob> Message-ID: Bob Applegate, I would love to get this system from you and I can even pick it up if you want. I am in Philly just over the bridge from you. Please contact me at gmanuel@nospamgmconsulting.net removing the nospam part of course. I can pick it up at your convience. Thanks. Greg Manuel -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Applegate Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 11:40 AM To: cctech@classiccmp.org Subject: Free: DECstation 5000/240 This system is free for pickup in southern NJ (Medford/Mt Laurel area). I'll be in Boston next week, so if someone up there wants it, let me know and I can drag it along in the van. This is the collection... DECstation 5000/240 processor. Includes three 32 MB memory modules (room for 12 more). SZ-12 expansion box with one RZ55 SCSI drive (300 MB?) and one RZ56 (600 MB?). SZ-12 expansion box with two RZ56 (600 MB?) drives. SCSI cables to go from processor to drive enclosure, and from one drive encloser to another. You'll need to supply your own terminator. PMAD-A board. I can't remember what this does. Four MS02 8 MB memory boards for 5000/2xx series workstations. Possibly other miscellaneous DEC cables related to this system. If you have any questions, just ask. Bob From carsten at brasholt.dk Mon Jun 14 16:40:35 2004 From: carsten at brasholt.dk (Carsten Brasholt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> Message-ID: <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> Hi again, I just opened it up.... It's got 5 chips inside it. 74LS00 74LS74 8251AP-5 74LS32 4060 Does this help?? I know that prestel is some sort of teletext service - and perhaps a dial-up service, but this unit doesn't really look like it's related to a modem..... Cheers, Carsten Carsten Brasholt wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just been looking through a box of old computer-stuff and found > the following small item: > > It looks like a cartridge (8x5cm) for an Amstrad with a passthrough > edge connector and a lead (70cm) comming out with a 5-pin DIN plug > (male) at the end. > > On the label it says: > > Cirkit > Prestel Link > Amstrad Interface > > Any help appreciated. Searches on Google gives nothing! > > Cheers, > Carsten From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 14 16:54:31 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> Message-ID: <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 21:40, Carsten Brasholt wrote: > Hi again, > > I just opened it up.... > It's got 5 chips inside it. > 74LS00 > 74LS74 > 8251AP-5 > 74LS32 > 4060 > > Does this help?? > > I know that prestel is some sort of teletext service - and perhaps a > dial-up service, but this unit doesn't really look like it's related to > a modem..... The 8251 is a serial comms chip - looks like you have an Amstrad cartridge giving you a serial port on the DIN plug, to which you'd connect up a serial modem in order to access Prestel. I have a feeling Prestel was 1200 baud downstream and 75 baud upstream, but someone else will know for sure :-) cheers Jules From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 14 17:17:52 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> Message-ID: <40CE2410.2030805@ntlworld.com> Carsten Brasholt wrote: > Hi again, > > I just opened it up.... > It's got 5 chips inside it. > 74LS00 > 74LS74 > 8251AP-5 > 74LS32 > 4060 > > Does this help?? > > I know that prestel is some sort of teletext service - and perhaps a > dial-up service, but this unit doesn't really look like it's related to > a modem..... > > Cheers, > Carsten > > Carsten Brasholt wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I've just been looking through a box of old computer-stuff and found >> the following small item: >> >> It looks like a cartridge (8x5cm) for an Amstrad with a passthrough >> edge connector and a lead (70cm) comming out with a 5-pin DIN plug >> (male) at the end. >> >> On the label it says: >> >> Cirkit >> Prestel Link >> Amstrad Interface >> >> Any help appreciated. Searches on Google gives nothing! >> >> Cheers, >> Carsten > > > I've not seen one of these but I have got a lot of amstrad stuff. Can you send a picture. The 8251 chip is a uart so I would guess it is a serial interface the 5 pin probably went to a modem. Dan From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Jun 14 15:56:52 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Apple LaserWriter questions In-Reply-To: <20040611095204.4ca8cd6c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040614134556.0379b5d0@pop-server.socal.rr.com> I am also a big fan of the Laserwriter II series, and even now have people contact me to buy the IIg upgrade boards (faster cpu, but the key is ethernet). In any kind of mixed environment of PC and mac I think people are much better off with a HP Laserjet with a fast comm plugin and postscript. I use a 4P and its so reliable and cheap compared to inkjets etc I doubt I will ever let it go. OTOH the II series is so EASY to fix, and not that much a drop in print quality and speed. From gsutton9503 at wavecable.com Mon Jun 14 18:07:04 2004 From: gsutton9503 at wavecable.com (Scarletdown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: <20040613050548.GB2878@bos7.spole.gov> References: <20040608053524.GA10313@bos7.spole.gov> <005401c450f9$cf60e890$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <20040613050548.GB2878@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <40CE2F98.80905@wavecable.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 08:52:12PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > >does ups pick up at the south pole? > > >Ah, no. USPS only, and not for 5 more months. > >-ethan > > I figured they would leave that task to the New York Air National Guard, the folks who support Operation Deep Freeze down there at the bottom of the world. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 14 18:43:39 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Classics near Winchester, Hampshire, UK ? In-Reply-To: <004501c45243$70f7f000$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini > Sent: 14 June 2004 20:12 > To: 'Mike Kenzie'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Classics near Winchester, Hampshire, UK ? > > If suitecase was a typo for suitcase, then no. Otherwise be > sure to have a butcher's at this after unwrapping: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247& > item=51021 > 29686&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW Hehe, I've just been having a look at that after someone else sent me the link - 23 BBCs? FIFTY Acorn 3000s? I know I like hoarding stuff but that just takes the biscuit AND the packet the biscuit came in AND the tin :) Particularly since the 'winner' will have to drive to North Wales to get everything. Eep. Cheers w From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 14 19:00:52 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator Message-ID: <200406150000.RAA08974@clulw009.amd.com> Hi I thought I'd mention that I've written a simulator for the 4004 in the environment of a SIM-4. One could adapt it to most any hardware environment. It is written in Forth so it can be quite flexible for someone that knows Forth. If anyone is interested, I can dig it up. With a little time to refamiliarize myself with the code, I can help connect up I/O. It runs under FPC on a DOS PC platform. There is a simple assembler and disassembler as well. For someone wanting to do a 4004 project, it can be quite useful at debugging code and hardware concepts. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 19:16:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? In-Reply-To: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> from "Carsten Brasholt" at Jun 14, 4 10:49:57 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > I've just been looking through a box of old computer-stuff and found the > following small item: > > It looks like a cartridge (8x5cm) for an Amstrad with a passthrough edge > connector and a lead (70cm) comming out with a 5-pin DIN plug (male) at > the end. > > On the label it says: > > Cirkit Cirkit were a component-supplying company in the UK who also sold some kits (And ready-built items). > Prestel Link Prestel was a British Telecom 'viewdata' service. IIRC it used 1200/75 baud modems (1200 baud from host to terminal, 75 baud from terminal to host). Originally the only information transmitted from the terminal was page numbers, so the slow link didn't matter. > Amstrad Interface > > Any help appreciated. Searches on Google gives nothing! My guess is that it's a very cut-down serial interface for an Amstrad. Maybe RS232 levels, maybe not. Maybe fixed baud rates (1200 Rx, 75 Tx), maybe not. Have you tried opening it up and seeing what chips are inside? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 19:20:40 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> from "Carsten Brasholt" at Jun 14, 4 11:40:35 pm Message-ID: > > Hi again, > > I just opened it up.... > It's got 5 chips inside it. > 74LS00 > 74LS74 > 8251AP-5 > 74LS32 > 4060 > > Does this help?? YEs, a lot... Assuming there aren't significant numbers of transistors around (to implement RS232 buffers in discrete components), then this thing would appear to use TTL levels for the interface. The 8251 is a serial chip (actually a USART, but I doubt it's eve used in synchronous mode). It doesn't have an internal baud rate generator. The 4060 is a long CMOS counter. My guess is that this produces the baud rate clock, and in the absensce of any other chips, it's going to be fixed at 1200/75 (there's no output port/mux chips there to allow for selectable baud rates, and not really enough logic to implement that using gates and FFs). > > I know that prestel is some sort of teletext service - and perhaps a > dial-up service, but this unit doesn't really look like it's related to > a modem..... It is a seiral interface, presumanly for a special modem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 19:10:42 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: <1087238430.2282.8.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> from "Tom Jennings" at Jun 14, 4 11:40:31 am Message-ID: > PS: The old Micromation floppy controller (CP/M 1.4 days) used NEITHER > chip family, did their own formatin LS TTL, and practically no one can > read them. I have a Micromation Doubler in my CASU Super C (S100 bus CP/M machine). >From what I rmemeber the single-density (FM) format is standard, and can read/write IBM3740 disks. The double density format, though, is probably unique to this card. > You can probably do all this in a PC sound card these days! Not many sound cards will handle 500kHz signals, surely? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 14 19:25:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Classics near Winchester, Hampshire, UK ? In-Reply-To: from "Witchy" at Jun 15, 4 00:43:39 am Message-ID: > Hehe, I've just been having a look at that after someone else sent me the > link - 23 BBCs? FIFTY Acorn 3000s? I know I like hoarding stuff but that > just takes the biscuit AND the packet the biscuit came in AND the tin :) Sounds like somebody grabbed the old machines when a school downgraded their computer facilities to PCs... -tony From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 14 19:51:53 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free DEC 11/34 Boards References: <002201c4523d$8376cc20$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Message-ID: <001201c45272$f3ab0f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Phieh! No 11/34 memory boards :\ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 14 20:05:05 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free DEC 11/34 Boards In-Reply-To: <001201c45272$f3ab0f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <002201c4523d$8376cc20$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> <001201c45272$f3ab0f80$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200406141805.05342.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 14 June 2004 17:51, Jay West wrote: > Phieh! No 11/34 memory boards :\ Beggars can't be choosers ;-) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 14 20:42:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question Message-ID: <200406150142.SAA09020@clulw009.amd.com> > >> PS: The old Micromation floppy controller (CP/M 1.4 days) used NEITHER >> chip family, did their own formatin LS TTL, and practically no one can >> read them. > >I have a Micromation Doubler in my CASU Super C (S100 bus CP/M machine). >>From what I rmemeber the single-density (FM) format is standard, and can >read/write IBM3740 disks. The double density format, though, is probably >unique to this card. > >> You can probably do all this in a PC sound card these days! > >Not many sound cards will handle 500kHz signals, surely? > >-tony > Hi Tony I doubt they'd take it directly. Most have anti-aliasing filters that roll of before this. I think what the other fellow was refering to was to use the DSP on a sound card but not through the audio A/D part. Many sound cards used industry standard DSP chips the were reprogrammable with flash or on board RAM. The DSP chip I'm looking at on a modem card is a AD2116. It runs at about 16 mips and has very efficient indexed addressing with increment. This is more than fast enough to bit bang a floppy signal. To sample a digital signal asynchronously really takes a sample rate of at least 4X ( Shannon's says 2X but that is in theory with analog and brick wall filters ). Most serial chips use 16X. Since you need to detect edges, you need to be running at a sample rate of near 4 to 8 megherts to stay up with a signal from a floppy at 500khz data rate. Dwight From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 14 20:53:43 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: What is this??? - Update" (Jun 14, 21:54) References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 14, 21:54, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 21:40, Carsten Brasholt wrote: > > Hi again, > > > > I just opened it up.... > > It's got 5 chips inside it. > > 74LS00 > > 74LS74 > > 8251AP-5 > > 74LS32 > > 4060 > > > > Does this help?? > > > > I know that prestel is some sort of teletext service - and perhaps a > > dial-up service, but this unit doesn't really look like it's related to > > a modem..... Strictly speaking, "teletext" is broadcast, the generic term is "viewdata" :-) > The 8251 is a serial comms chip - looks like you have an Amstrad > cartridge giving you a serial port on the DIN plug, to which you'd > connect up a serial modem in order to access Prestel. > > I have a feeling Prestel was 1200 baud downstream and 75 baud upstream, > but someone else will know for sure :-) Correct. The idea was to make most use of bandwidth with the technology of the early 1980s. Most of the data went from a central host to a terminal; what went back was mostly typed (page numbers, data entry fields, email), and few people regularly exceed 7 cps. There were special ports running normal symmetric 1200 half duplex and full duplex for "Information Providers" on a machine called Duke, but ordinary users didn't have access to Duke, or those ports. Data available included train and airline timetables, news, weather, lots of microcomputer stuff including "telesoftware", and all sorts of other things. There were quite a few other viewdata services besides Prestel. Some large businesses used viewdata, a few bulletin boards did, the Open University, some banks, and it was widely used by travel agents -- there was a special system run by a consortium for clearing holiday bookings. Derivatives included the French Minitel service, Germany's Bildschirmtext, and Canada had something too. The last commercial viewdata system I know of (Bank of Scotland HOBS service) finally closed last month (though it may still be running for special purposes). It would seem that there is little point in finishing off the rough edges on my X-Windows Prestel terminal software ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ken at seefried.com Mon Jun 14 21:38:24 2004 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Free VAX 3100/30 in Atlanta Message-ID: <20040615023824.15041.qmail@mail.seefried.com> I've got a VAX 3100/30 in probably-working-but-no-warrenty free for pickup in Atlanta, GA, USA. I'll throw in an external SCSI cable (which has an odd connection) and a VT220 (without, unfortunately, a MMJ cable). Need to make some room for higher priority rubbish. Ken From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Mon Jun 14 22:28:16 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator In-Reply-To: <40CE2F98.80905@wavecable.com> References: <20040608053524.GA10313@bos7.spole.gov> <005401c450f9$cf60e890$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> <20040613050548.GB2878@bos7.spole.gov> <40CE2F98.80905@wavecable.com> Message-ID: <20040615032816.GD25123@bos7.spole.gov> On Mon, Jun 14, 2004 at 04:07:04PM -0700, Scarletdown wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >On Sat, Jun 12, 2004 at 08:52:12PM -0700, ed sharpe wrote: > >does ups pick up at the south pole? > > > >Ah, no. USPS only, and not for 5 more months. > > > I figured they would leave that task to the New York Air National Guard, > the folks who support Operation Deep Freeze down there at the bottom of > the world. NYANG does the flying, but the USPS accepts the packages before they enter the Military APO system at SFO. It makes some things a pain, like when I was ordering parts this summer to build my Popular Electronics Elf... I had to use vendors that were willing to put a package in the U.S. Mail (B.G. Micro was great about it). I ordered a lens for my digital camera, and it had to go home first (Olympus America only ships UPS), then _they_ put it in the mail... took weeks longer than it needed to, and I had to pay shipping twice! -ethan P.S. - Operation Deep Freeze is no longer - the Navy disbanded its detachments about five years ago, after they handed all the land-based operations to civilian contractors, and the flying to NYANG (LC-130s) and PHI (helos). -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Jun-2004 03:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.5 F (-64.2 C) Windchill -117.5 F (-83.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.7 kts Grid 062 Barometer 684.3 mb (10464. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Tue Jun 15 01:45:10 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Cromemco Information Needed References: <200406141405.i5EE5CvK026938@ms-smtp-01-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Message-ID: <00e701c452a6$eab0f190$64406b43@66067007> I also have one of these cards and will check the warehouse to see if I have a manual for it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Watzman" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: Cromemco Information Needed > I need as much information as possible - but at least the DIP switch > settings - for a Cromemco 64KZ II memory board. Note, this is the 64KZ II, > which is a different board from the Cromemco 64KZ (No "II"). If someone has > a manual that they will loan me, I will scan it into a PDF file and return > it. > > > > Thanks, > > Barry Watzman > > Watzman@neo.rr.com > > > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 15 04:31:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 01:53, Pete Turnbull wrote: > There were quite a few other viewdata services besides Prestel. Some > large businesses used viewdata, a few bulletin boards did, the Open > University, some banks, and it was widely used by travel agents -- > there was a special system run by a consortium for clearing holiday > bookings. Derivatives included the French Minitel service, Germany's > Bildschirmtext, and Canada had something too. The last commercial > viewdata system I know of (Bank of Scotland HOBS service) finally > closed last month (though it may still be running for special > purposes). I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again though. It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted 80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server software any more :-( Even if they did have the server software, I can't see them having a snapshot of live data from the 80's which is what would make it really interesting. I don't really fancy writing a few hundred fake pages :-) I've heard mention of some sort of viewdata server system there (not Prestel), although I haven't personally stumbled across it in storage yet (no room currently to have it on display!). PDP hardware IIRC. I'll have to find some more details and then see how viable it is to get running again... > It would seem that there is little point in finishing off the rough > edges on my X-Windows Prestel terminal software ;-) See above :-) cheers Jules From lists at microvax.org Tue Jun 15 04:57:46 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406151057.46819.lists@microvax.org> On Tuesday 15 June 2004 10:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again > though. > > It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted > 80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) > but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server > software any more :-( Jules Speak to hazeii - hazeii@hazeii.net, tell him that meltie sent you. He might well know someone who's kept a few things behind. Hazeii is the guy that built the Shades MUD - him and a few mates had a lot of back-end access to the hardware. alex/melt From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 15 06:25:28 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:30 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fair warning, the following message contains the ratings of a single individual. >>>> Sounds like somebody grabbed the old machines when a school downgraded their computer facilities to PCs... As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many here. While I completely agree that there are significant *problems* with both the hardware and (Windoze) software, I do believe that the more extreme views are off base. Having been involved with computing since 1972, I have worked with nearly all [non-mainframe] systems that are discussed on this board at some point. Many of them had some very interesting, unique (and useful) features that drove computer technology to the next level. I am currently involved in attempting to restore a complete PDP-8 environment myself [with the dream of actually getting a TSS-8 distribution running with TU-56 tape drives. IF the computer industry had remained with a large number of completely different hardware/software environments which required trained operators for even the most basic operations, then computing would not have become a household commodity. Even neglecting price, consider the concept of everyone having a [fill in the machine of your choice] in their home, at school (even at the lower grade levels or preschools!], and in all of the other locations where it is common to find computer access. Standardization of both hardware and software HAD TO HAPPEN, if computers were to become the commodity they are today. IBM/Intel had the technology, manpower, and finances to create a platform that was (reasonably) affordable, and significantly exceeded the capabilities of the current generation of "personal" computers. Bill Gates had the opportunity to develop an operating system [MS-DOS] when Digital Research decided not to agressively persue a new version of CP/M. Once this was the dominant command line O/S, it was only logical that the same company had the best chance to develop a GUI based interface once that technology started to appear Side Note: Many years ago I met Bill Gates and had the chance to speak [along with a fairly large group] with him. Personally I do not like the man's attitude towards many things, but I DO repsect his business sense and drive [leaving the issue of ethics out of the discussion]. So does the PC Hardware Platform have some serious shortcomings? YES Could a machine be build with significant technology advantages over a PC architecture? YES Does Windows have some real technology problems? DEFINITELY Is the current pricing/licensing model out of line? DEPENDS IF YOU ARE A VENDOR OR CUSTOMER Even with these issues, lets face the facts Windows/PC is going to be around [and dominant] in most business and personal environments for a significant period of time, unless something RADICAL happens on the technology level [Bio-Neural-Networks come to mind]. So lets stop the bashing, and just LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT! We should [again my opinion] concentrate on what we can do best. Keep the old technology alive for historical purposes. Prevent items from going to the scrapper whenever possible. If a member finds an item that is aimed at the scrapper, salvage it even if it is not part of their main focus [for later trade/sale/barter], or find someone who can. Share whatever documentation / software we currently have available [a special thanks to Don Robert House is due at this point!], so that all may benefit. I have an uncle who collects/restores old cars [1909 Sears, Stanley Steamer, etc.] each of these cars had some fascinating and innovative features for their day. Although he does complain about many features of the current state of the automotive industry, he never suggests that we should go back to the old way of doing things. Rather the focus is on how things can move forward, addressing current problems and making the best use of new technology. Aside from the Auto/Computer difference I think that our group and his are basically identical. Hopefully my next post will be more on a specific topic...... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jun 15 07:05:49 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > Sent: 15 June 2004 12:25 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... > > > Fair warning, the following message contains the ratings of a > single individual. Aaaand relax :) w From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 15 07:21:49 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087302109.27169.211.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 11:25, David V. Corbin wrote: > >>>> Sounds like somebody grabbed the old machines when a school downgraded > their computer facilities to PCs... > > As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many > here. While I completely agree that there are significant *problems* with > both the hardware and (Windoze) software, I do believe that the more extreme > views are off base. I witnessed a school clearance over here last year (I actually got there first and took all the good stuff :-) who were disposing of all their old Acorn 8 bit hardware. They were moving everything over to Acorn RiscPC hardware because they found it was more viable than taking the 'accepted' route of going for expensive obsolete-in-a-second PCs. For where they *had* to maintain x86 compatibility, x86 coprocessor boards for the machines are readily available. The machines could all run Linux happily alongside RiscOS. It was just nice to see somewhere putting together an environment that was reliable, cheap, and did everything that was expected of it. I don't think the Government here lay down the law as to what hardware/software schools use (yet), but once a school takes the typical PC/Microsfot route I suppose it's very hard to go back as the knowledge of alternatives gets lost amongst the policy-makers (remember that traditionally in the UK most educational establishments used Acorn and later Apple Mac platforms, with universities using Unix) > IF the computer industry had remained with a large number of completely > different hardware/software environments which required trained operators > for even the most basic operations, then computing would not have become a > household commodity. I don't know how many households had a home computer in the 80's and early 90's in the UK, but my meory is that it was a lot, at least amongst those families who had children. > Standardization of both hardware and software HAD TO HAPPEN, if computers > were to become the commodity they are today. I'd say the standardization came later, just at a huge cost, both at hardware and software level. At the hardware level there was the PC with it's oddball design, which had crippled progress ever since. At the software level there was, well, you-know-who. That argument's been done to death so I'm not even going to go there. I'm all for standards when they're well-defined and publicly available, but not when a company with too much marketing clout deviates from accepted standards and creates fragmentation, or uses their weight to create a rival 'standard' of their own choosing, or when the standard is poorly designed or over-complicated so that it stands no chance of keeping up with technology advances. > IBM/Intel had the technology, manpower, and finances to create a platform > that was (reasonably) affordable, and significantly exceeded the > capabilities of the current generation of "personal" computers. I'd disagree on both counts there I think, but that's just my opinion. And the flipside of blaming good marketing is that you can always blame a lazy public who aren't prepared to understand what they're buying and shop around for the best deal (not in terms of cost, but in terms of what suits their needs) > Bill Gates had the opportunity to develop an operating system [MS-DOS] when > Digital Research decided not to agressively persue a new version of CP/M. > Once this was the dominant command line O/S, it was only logical that the > same company had the best chance to develop a GUI based interface once that > technology started to appear Why? GUIs and command-line interfaces are very different animals. > Even with these issues, lets face the facts Windows/PC is going to be around > [and dominant] in most business and personal environments for a significant > period of time, unless something RADICAL happens on the technology level > [Bio-Neural-Networks come to mind]. So lets stop the bashing, and just LEARN > TO DEAL WITH IT! My personal gripe is the "computing is good, everyone should have a computer" attitude. I'm forever seeing eldery people struggling to afford computer technology only to find that it doesn't really *give* them anything. Same goes with Third World projects - all very noble, but how about making sure people can maintain basic services for themselves before dumping wireless technology on their heads? Sure, we've come a long way, and computing does have benefits. But I'm a little concerned that it's being treated as the saviour of society and the way forward. Nobody seems to be sitting back and worrying about the biger picture... > I have an uncle who collects/restores old cars [1909 Sears, Stanley Steamer, > etc.] each of these cars had some fascinating and innovative features for > their day. Although he does complain about many features of the current > state of the automotive industry, he never suggests that we should go back > to the old way of doing things. Maybe every industry has some sort of sweet period though, I don't know. For me I'd much prefer a thirty or fourty year old car because I can understand the technology, can fix it with simple tools, and it does what I expect of a car - it's reliable and gets me from one place to another in comfort and in a reasonable amount of time. I don't care if I have to stop for five minutes if I want a drink because there's no cupholder - life should not be fast enough that I can't afford to stop for that drink anyway. I don't care if I have to wind a window down by hand, or look at a map because I don't have satnav, or (shock horror) scrape ice of a front window on a cold morning because it isn't heated. Personally I'd rather have something that gets me from A to B and doesn't cost a fortune to buy or run because it's not packed full of 'extra' gizmos and technology. Of course, I'm in a minority, preferring simple tools that do a well-defined job, rather than something complex that does anything. It's a nice analogy too, because I feel the same way about computing. And sometimes I do wonder if, deep down, most people would feel like that if they didn't have the marketing departments telling them otherwise... > same here :-) cheers Jules From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Tue Jun 15 09:31:47 2004 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: VT55 Programming Manual Message-ID: Does anyone want a copy of the DEC VT55 Programming Manual (AA-4949B-TC)? I have the manual but have never even seen the terminal. Anyone want it? From wacarder at usit.net Tue Jun 15 10:12:39 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: VT55 Programming Manual References: Message-ID: <000601c452eb$334e05c0$99100f14@mcothran1> I'd like to have it. I'll also try to make sure it gets scanned and archived. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 10:31 AM Subject: VT55 Programming Manual > Does anyone want a copy of the DEC VT55 Programming Manual > (AA-4949B-TC)? I have the manual but have never even seen the terminal. > Anyone want it? > From charlesb at otcgaming.net Tue Jun 15 09:53:32 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: VT55 Programming Manual References: Message-ID: <008001c452eb$6203e0b0$7dc3033e@thunder> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 3:31 PM Subject: VT55 Programming Manual > Does anyone want a copy of the DEC VT55 Programming Manual > (AA-4949B-TC)? I have the manual but have never even seen the terminal. > Anyone want it? Can you scan it in, then it would be preserved for prosperity.. i'm sure sum1 could put the rar/zip/tar.gz file up for download. :D Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 15 10:30:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406151534.LAA02972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...rant about the general dislike of peecees...] > [they're here and not going away]. So lets stop the bashing, and > just LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT! Learn to deal with it, yes. But I don't see that as a reason to stop the bashing. If the criticisms were unfair, perhaps. But even you, in your rant, admit they're broken on many levels (as compared to most other machines); I see no particular reason to stop pointing out something that's broken just because we're stuck with its presence. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 15 10:54:58 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: Message-ID: <008c01c452f1$1ccfe880$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > lets stop the bashing, and just LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT! I think that the 10-year rule may have to be dropped when that sliding window falls to the era of the PC monoculture. Sun hasn't died yet, so there's a peephole to other architectures, but a small one. Later we may have to rest on a fixed cut-off date. Resurrecting PC's would be as much fun as other computers if it weren't for the software. BTW I like PC _hardware_. The seeming need that MS has for planned obsolescence, a practice that looks like pure deception to me, has made it first hard then later impossible to love. > Standardization of both hardware and software HAD TO HAPPEN, Sure glad there's Linux. There's a secondary issue too, with the death of computers as education tools, replaced by computers as entertainment. That seems like it could even be a cultural dead-end. First Television went from Golden age to cultural wasteland, now it's time for computers to do same. > If a member finds an item that is aimed at the scrapper, salvage it > even if it is not part of their main focus [for later trade/sale/barter], > or find someone who can. BTW I have three Pentium 75 systems here for a good cause. I sure seem to have made Chris happy with other off-focus items. John A. Your O/S will self destruct in 6 months, subscribe for updates Now! From thompson at new.rr.com Tue Jun 15 11:02:54 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406151534.LAA02972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406151534.LAA02972@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > > [they're here and not going away]. So lets stop the bashing, and > > just LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT! > > Learn to deal with it, yes. > > But I don't see that as a reason to stop the bashing. If the > criticisms were unfair, perhaps. But even you, in your rant, admit > they're broken on many levels (as compared to most other machines); I > see no particular reason to stop pointing out something that's broken > just because we're stuck with its presence. Exactly, deal with, but not accept illegal predatory, monopoly behavior. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 15 11:22:25 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net> > > >I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again >though. > >It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted >80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) >but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server >software any more :-( This is something I would like to see, too. I should still have enough equipment and software about to set up at least two of the various BBC-micro based servers which I ran at various times, including the multi-user software that the GnomeAtHome ran on which I had an official copy of... Maybe when I finally get the spare room sorted out, I'll have enough space to stack a couple of machines up and run the BBS again, linked to a terminal server, I think, not the raft of phone lines I used to have... (Ah, the joys of building ring-detect circuits for cheap and nasty 1200 baud modems that didn't have them..) >Even if they did have the server software, I can't see them having a >snapshot of live data from the 80's which is what would make it really >interesting. I don't really fancy writing a few hundred fake pages :-) > >I've heard mention of some sort of viewdata server system there (not >Prestel), although I haven't personally stumbled across it in storage >yet (no room currently to have it on display!). PDP hardware IIRC. I'll >have to find some more details and then see how viable it is to get >running again... There was a viewdata server for internal use at Micronet's London office when I worked there back in the '80s. It was definitely a PDP11 of some flavour, (two waist-high white cabinets, three huge white disc packs.) I don't know what software it actually ran, but we used standard prestel terminals with it.. There was a normal console sat on top we used to run the backups on (swap packs, copy up, swap packs, copy down..) Maybe you got that, or something similar? > > It would seem that there is little point in finishing off the rough > > edges on my X-Windows Prestel terminal software ;-) > >See above :-) > >cheers > >Jules From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 15 11:28:50 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: References: <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040615172258.03faa9f8@pop.freeserve.net> At 01:20 15/06/2004, you wrote: > > > > I know that prestel is some sort of teletext service - and perhaps a > > dial-up service, but this unit doesn't really look like it's related to > > a modem..... > >It is a seiral interface, presumanly for a special modem. > >-tony The Prism modems we used to sell for dialing-up Prestel when I worked at Micronet (OK, give away with a subscription) back in '80s used a DIN connection for their serial interface. It's highly likely this was intended for use with one of those, as it was pretty much the cheapest modem out there.. Prism, incidentally, manufactured the standalone modems, and an integrated modem/interface/software box for the ZX Spectrum, and then promptly went out of business. Micronet bought up all the stock, untested, and was therefore able to give them away free if you subscribed. The number we got back as faulty was amazing .... we didn't even check them when someone returned one, just sent out another.. It was not uncommon for people to get two or three faulty ones in a row.... Rob From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 15 11:27:58 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <40CF238E.5040909@ntlworld.com> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > >> >> >> I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again >> though. >> >> It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted >> 80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) >> but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server >> software any more :-( > > > This is something I would like to see, too. > > I should still have enough equipment and software about to set up at > least two of the various BBC-micro based servers which I ran at various > times, including the multi-user software that the GnomeAtHome ran on > which I had an official copy of... > > Maybe when I finally get the spare room sorted out, I'll have enough > space to stack a couple of machines up and run the BBS again, linked to > a terminal server, I think, not the raft of phone lines I used to > have... (Ah, the joys of building ring-detect circuits for cheap and > nasty 1200 baud modems that didn't have them..) > >> Even if they did have the server software, I can't see them having a >> snapshot of live data from the 80's which is what would make it really >> interesting. I don't really fancy writing a few hundred fake pages :-) >> >> I've heard mention of some sort of viewdata server system there (not >> Prestel), although I haven't personally stumbled across it in storage >> yet (no room currently to have it on display!). PDP hardware IIRC. I'll >> have to find some more details and then see how viable it is to get >> running again... > > > There was a viewdata server for internal use at Micronet's London office > when I worked there back in the '80s. It was definitely a PDP11 of some > flavour, (two waist-high white cabinets, three huge white disc packs.) I > don't know what software it actually ran, but we used standard prestel > terminals with it.. There was a normal console sat on top we used to > run the backups on (swap packs, copy up, swap packs, copy down..) Maybe > you got that, or something similar? > > > > >> > It would seem that there is little point in finishing off the rough >> > edges on my X-Windows Prestel terminal software ;-) >> >> See above :-) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules > > > > I think I could get hold of some dial-up terminals if anyone is interested. Dan From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 11:41:50 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: <28917282.1087317713446.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> to all the ranters (no matter what the subject), apply Thumper's Rule to what you say - in the movie Bambi - Thumper the rabbit was told by his mother - "if you can't say anything nice, then don't say anything at all." This list is for classic computers. Any chance you all can keep your personal feelings from wasting email bandwidth. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: der Mouse Sent: Jun 15, 2004 11:30 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... > [...rant about the general dislike of peecees...] > [they're here and not going away]. So lets stop the bashing, and > just LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT! Learn to deal with it, yes. But I don't see that as a reason to stop the bashing. If the criticisms were unfair, perhaps. But even you, in your rant, admit they're broken on many levels (as compared to most other machines); I see no particular reason to stop pointing out something that's broken just because we're stuck with its presence. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From thompson at new.rr.com Tue Jun 15 12:06:09 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <28917282.1087317713446.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <28917282.1087317713446.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > all." This list is for classic computers. Any chance you all can keep > your personal feelings from wasting email bandwidth. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" This list supposedly allows for Off-Topic posts. cc-tech is the list you want. From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 15 12:07:50 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040615123424.03a670e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David V. Corbin may have mentioned these words: > >Fair warning, the following message contains the ratings of a single >individual. Danger, Will Robinson!!! ;-) >As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many >here. While I completely agree that there are significant *problems* with >both the hardware and (Windoze) software, I do believe that the more extreme >views are off base. *Everything* extreme is off-base to someone (quite often to a large installed base of someones!) That's human nature. (BTW, I'm not denigrating or disagreeing with what you stated -- I'm reinforcing it.) >IF the computer industry had remained with a large number of completely >different hardware/software environments which required trained operators >for even the most basic operations, then computing would not have become a >household commodity. I disagree. I do think it would have been more difficult, but it by no means would have been impossible. > Even neglecting price, consider the concept of everyone >having a [fill in the machine of your choice] in their home, at school (even >at the lower grade levels or preschools!], and in all of the other locations >where it is common to find computer access. > >Standardization of both hardware and software HAD TO HAPPEN, if computers >were to become the commodity they are today. Noper -- look at game consoles. Granted, some are a bit more popular than others, but there are still 3 main (and mainstream) platforms to choose from, all of which are incompatible with each other (and sometimes with themselves! ;-) ). >IBM/Intel had the technology, manpower, and finances to create a platform >that was (reasonably) affordable and the tech, manpower & most importantly finances to jam said inferior platform down everyone's throat. From IBM, it was by no means even reasonably affordable. (When I worked for GM/EDS on "da big iron" I was vacillating between purchasing an IBM PS/2 Model 30 286 w/30Meg HD and a Color Macintosh [1] -- neither of which I could afford, even on GM's plans. I bought a 386SX16 clone with 2x memory, 2x HD, better video, better monitor (which was actually OEMmed by IBM anyway, believe it or not) at .5x the price.) That's why Goatway, Hewlett Putrid & Hell computers are king, not IBM. (Compaq used to be king... where are they now?) When IBM said "You buy our PCs for your company, or you'll lose the lease for that IBM 3090..." What do you think those companies did? >, and significantly exceeded the >capabilities of the current generation of "personal" computers. That clone I purchased above, I bought for 1 reason: Games. It was an $1800 Nintendo. When I wanted to do *real* work, I sparked up my CoCo, as I could do more work in less time under OS-9. In 512K, sans HD, on a <2Mhz CPU, I could run a telecommunication software in one window, my spreadsheet in a second, word processor in a 3rd, Basic09 in a fourth, keep one window just at the prompt in case I needed it, and *still* had room for a 200K RamDrive. I didn't have a snowballs chance in Hades of doing *anything* like that with my IBM. >Bill Gates had the opportunity to develop an operating system [MS-DOS] Erm, it's well known he *bought* that. He did *not* develop it. The last thing BG worked on himself was the OS for the Tandy Model 'T' (Kyocera OEMmed) series of laptops. And that was back when Micro$haft still knew how to make decent software, instead of buy crap & selling it to IBM. >[snippety] >So does the PC Hardware Platform have some serious shortcomings? YES >Could a machine be build with significant technology advantages over a PC >architecture? YES >Does Windows have some real technology problems? DEFINITELY >Is the current pricing/licensing model out of line? DEPENDS IF YOU ARE A >VENDOR OR CUSTOMER Yea, and judging from *my* margins, you're one helluva lot better of if you're a customer instead of a vendor... Unless you're name's Michael Dell, you won't get rich selling PCs in your hometown anymore... >Even with these issues, lets face the facts Windows/PC is going to be around >[and dominant] in most business and personal environments for a significant >period of time, unless something RADICAL happens on the technology level >[Bio-Neural-Networks come to mind]. So lets stop the bashing, and just LEARN >TO DEAL WITH IT! Gee, thanks for yelling. Just when I thought you were going to keep a logical, professional slant to your (up until now) well-thought-out missive. Sad, really. Regards, Roger Merchberger [1] I'm not denigrating said Macs -- I *really* wanted one. I just don't remember the model #s I was looking at buying - hence the . -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch@30below.com | From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 12:08:49 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: <25971159.1087319340284.JavaMail.root@gonzo.psp.pas.earthlink.net> it is still a major waste of bandwidth... -----Original Message----- From: Paul Thompson Sent: Jun 15, 2004 1:06 PM To: Steve Thatcher , "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > all." This list is for classic computers. Any chance you all can keep > your personal feelings from wasting email bandwidth. > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" This list supposedly allows for Off-Topic posts. cc-tech is the list you want. From waltje at pdp11.nl Tue Jun 15 12:06:34 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: STOP! (Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT...) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040615123424.03a670e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: Can we please stop this already? --f From cannings at earthlink.net Mon Jun 14 17:00:05 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: COSMAC BASIC hex dump References: <1084560606.1943.18.camel@dhcp-250048.mobile.uci.edu><000501c43b8f$e5ee5360$6401a8c0@hal9000> <1084822852.3566.69.camel@dhcp-251087> Message-ID: <004801c4525a$f5247d00$6401a8c0@hal9000> Tom, Thank you very much for the listing. My life is now complete ! Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Jennings" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, May 17, 2004 12:40 PM Subject: Re: COSMAC BASIC hex dump Well, I don't want to part with the manual, just offering copies of the hex dump, assuming that usable software for the 1802 was in short supply. The BASIC section is pretty short. The rest of the book is hardware specs for the cards, and is too much to copy. If you want the BASIC section copied I can do that... gimme your mailing address and I'll which whiz it off to you. > On Sun, 2004-05-16 at 14:51, Steven Canning wrote: >Tom, > I would be happy to pay postage plus some beer money for the manual. I have >a "working" COSMAC in my hobby lab. It would be nice to have the manual. I > am in So California. If this sounds good I can send you a mailing address > "offline" and we can swap info. Thanks a bunch ! > > Best regards, Steven > > P.S. You are correct in that it builds anything but character ! > > > I just moved my lab (ugh) and all it's contents (kilopounds), and > inevitably paused to look at junk along the way, and found my RCA COSMAC > DEVELOPMENT KIT manual. It's got a hex listing (remember those) for a > tiny BASIC for the 1802. > > If it's not already commonly available I'll (postal) mail a copy so's > you can have all the true vintage experience of typing in hex dumps then > finding the errors. > > I quite distinctly recall the abominable process of typing in ANIMALS or > somesuch nonsense from the SWTP docs way back when. Ugh. Wouldn't wish > it on anyone, and no, it did not build character. > > From sml49 at comcast.net Mon Jun 14 20:49:51 2004 From: sml49 at comcast.net (Seth Lewin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold In-Reply-To: <200406142312.i5ENC6hi091541@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Chris wrote on 6/14: > >> This is a >> perfectly useful machine - has 192 mb RAM - I figure I'll install OS 10.3.4 >> on it and use it to write and to cruise the web. > > OS X will perform like poop with only 192 MB of ram. Doable, but you will > be MUCH MUCH happier going beyond 256 MB. > > The catch with the Rev A boards is, they don't "officially" support 256 > MB SO-DIMS. 128's are the largest they are supposed to handle. However, > as long as you get 8x64 chips (as opposed to the newer 8x32), they seem > to work fine. Also, watch out when you buy RAM, anything that goes in the > lower RAM slot must be Low Profile SO-DIMMs. Larger ones won't fit. And > also, some of the ram slots have metal retaining clips, those have been > known to touch the pins on the ram chips keeping them from being seen. If > you have one with metal clips, just tape off the edge of the ram chip to > keep the clips from shorting them. I'm sure you're right; I have another iMac (a 333 mhz one) with 256 running 10.3.4 and it's acceptably fast - not hot stuff but more than good enough for what I need - running iTunes at work as well as running whatever other odd apps I feel like that our corporate MIS won't allow to be installed on company hardware. I'll see how this one feels before I shell out for a RAM module. Whoever owned this machine before put the 128 mb module in the lower slot with the upper one still containing 64 mb. It's a Rev B board in this one - it's got a Rage Pro chip - not the board that belongs in this case (tangerine) but it will do. I have a complete set of Bondi plastics from another (dead) Rev B and even have the IR module. Theoretically I could recreate the machine this board belongs in, but what the heck - I like this color...and don't need the IR. From Mike.Neal at egnhst.nhs.uk Tue Jun 15 03:42:26 2004 From: Mike.Neal at egnhst.nhs.uk (Mike.Neal@egnhst.nhs.uk) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Anyone heard of Gespac? Message-ID: <04Jun15.100556bst.119041@glgw02.xglos.nhs.uk> I stumbled across your question whilst looking for something else. I don't know much but.......I can tell you that in a Linear Accelerator (used for treating cancer with high energy photons (X-rays) or electrons, there is sometimes a system called Portal Vision which allows digital images of the treatment site to be taken during treatment. For Varian machines, the cassette holding the image capture device is on a retractable "arm" controlled by a control system on a GESPAC G-64/96 bus. CPU is MC68HC000 and the operating system is OS-9. You may have an R arm controller or more likely some other OS-9 based system. Mike Neal **************************************************************************** The information in this email and in any attachment(s) is commercial in confidence. If you are not the named addressee(s) or if you receive this email in error then any distribution, copying or use of this communication or the information in it is strictly prohibited. Please return it to the sender and delete all copies. Thank you. Whilst e-mail and attachments are virus checked GHNHST does not accept any liability in respect of any virus which is not detected. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the organisation. Gloucestershire Hospitals NHS Trust http://www.gloshospitals.org.uk *************************************************************************cgh From transit at lerami.lerctr.org Tue Jun 15 12:21:36 2004 From: transit at lerami.lerctr.org (Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Hey Hey 16K In-Reply-To: <200406151700.i5FH05hf095978@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406151700.i5FH05hf095978@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: If you hacked around with 8-bit computers in the 80's you'll get this. http://www2.b3ta.com/heyhey16k/ From pspan at amerytel.net Tue Jun 15 13:01:31 2004 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil Spanner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Free Dec Boards Message-ID: <006901c45302$ca60d480$0a01a8c0@airstreamcomm.net> Hi all, Thanks for contacting me privately. There were two people that were off by the same amount so I will contact them seperately. The number was 53 for those who were interested. I had one guess of 48 and another of 58. Thank you to everyone that responded and I am sure that these boards will go to a good home. Phil From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 15 12:45:10 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: "Rob O'Donnell" "Re: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update)" (Jun 15, 17:22) References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 15, 17:22, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > >I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again > >though. > > > >It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted > >80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) > >but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server > >software any more :-( > I should still have enough equipment and software about to set up at least > two of the various BBC-micro based servers which I ran at various times, > including the multi-user software that the GnomeAtHome ran on which I had > an official copy of... Wasn't that basically CommunITeL? I still have a copy, and I think I have a copy of at least one other server package for a Beeb. I used to run a viewdata BBS for a short while. > (Ah, the joys of building ring-detect circuits for cheap and nasty 1200 > baud modems that didn't have them..) 'cause BABT made it so difficult (and ludicrously expensive) to get approval. I built one that did ringback in hardware, so we could tell whether it was a BBS call or a real person (only had one phone line). For those who've not come across this usage of "ringback", it means a system where the caller hangs up after the first ring, then immediately redials. The modem only responds if the first ring is short enough, and the second follows after a minimum (but still within a maximum) time. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 15 12:46:14 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update)" (Jun 15, 9:31) References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10406151846.ZM10588@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 15, 9:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted > 80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) > but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server > software any more :-( If only for local use, a small PBX or a few line emulators would do. > Even if they did have the server software, I can't see them having a > snapshot of live data from the 80's which is what would make it really > interesting. I don't really fancy writing a few hundred fake pages :-) You might be able to get some pages from peopel who used to run BBC BBSs. Or people Rob and I know might have some dusty archives. > I've heard mention of some sort of viewdata server system there (not > Prestel), although I haven't personally stumbled across it in storage > yet (no room currently to have it on display!). PDP hardware IIRC. Some of the commercial systems did indeed use the ubiquitous PDP-11, but the real thing ran on GEC hardware. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 15 13:17:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: STOP! (Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Can we please stop this already? GO TO YOUR ROOM CHILDREN! I'M TELLING YOUR FATHER WHEN HE GETS HOME!!! WHERE'S MY VALIUM!!? AGGGHHHH!!!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 15 13:21:54 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Hey Hey 16K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Charles P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) wrote: > If you hacked around with 8-bit computers in the 80's you'll get this. > http://www2.b3ta.com/heyhey16k/ That's just brilliant! Thanks for posting that. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Tue Jun 15 13:02:53 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Jun 2004 12:21:49 -0000." <1087302109.27169.211.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406151802.TAA20579@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > I don't know how many households had a home computer in the 80's and > early 90's in the UK, but my meory is that it was a lot, at least > amongst those families who had children. > Certainly enough to support a substantial home-grown industry, as well as a dozen or so magazines. Sinclair, Amstrad, BBC, Tatung, Oric were all fairly big sellers in the home market as well as more international makes like Atari and Amiga. IBM-type PCs were rare in UK homes until the early '90s. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From Bill.Bohan at i-o.com Tue Jun 15 13:00:32 2004 From: Bill.Bohan at i-o.com (Bill Bohan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: HP64000 Message-ID: The only thing I could contribute is that there is a Software package that emulates the HP64000 In compiling code, free to download. You probably already know this. Is there another HP64000 available? I could possibly get copies of manuals and SW from a place I used to work at. Bill Bohan 972-234-3950 x52 Power Supply Design Engineer From Bill.Bohan at i-o.com Tue Jun 15 13:09:01 2004 From: Bill.Bohan at i-o.com (Bill Bohan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: HP 64000 in Kansas City Message-ID: How much are they wanting for it? Bill Bohan 972-234-3950 x52 Design Engineer From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 13:18:45 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com><6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server><1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain><20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net><003101c44fe5$cdd35220$6401a8c0@hal9000><019b01c450b9$de68d2c0$6401a8c0@knology.net> <3.0.6.32.20040614164001.0085e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002d01c45305$34817de0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Thanks Joe. I'll try sending another email request to him. Best regards, Steven Dogas is Mike Haas who lives in Brunswick, Ga. He's a member of this list. That is a good E-mail address for him. Joe At 02:29 PM 6/13/04 -0700, you wrote: >Paul, > >The reference came from an old Google search for "cctech" and floppy >interfaces which pointed to a posting by a "Mike" with an address like: >dogas@bellsouth.net I tried sending an Email but got no response. > >Best regards, Steven > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Paul Pennington" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:14 PM >Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive > > > Steven wrote: > > Anyone have the Kilobaud article where someone connected a FDD >to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? > > I just looked through my end of year indexes for my >Kilobaud/Microcomputing magazines, but I didn't see this article (or any >ET-3400 articles, for that matter). Sometimes the titles hide the contents >pretty well. If you can come up with an issue citation, I can make a copy >of the article. > > Paul Pennington >Augusta, Georgia > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 15 13:52:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive In-Reply-To: <002d01c45305$34817de0$6401a8c0@hal9000> References: <200406101845.i5AIjqbd004934@ms-smtp-04-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> <6.1.1.1.2.20040610164647.0d288960@pop-server> <1086901354.14884.7.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040610145313.G83507@newshell.lmi.net> <003101c44fe5$cdd35220$6401a8c0@hal9000> <019b01c450b9$de68d2c0$6401a8c0@knology.net> <3.0.6.32.20040614164001.0085e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040615145248.00919220@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Let me know if you can't get him and I'll call him and tell to go check his E-mail! Joe At 11:18 AM 6/15/04 -0700, you wrote: > >Thanks Joe. I'll try sending another email request to him. > >Best regards, Steven > > >Dogas is Mike Haas who lives in Brunswick, Ga. He's a member of this list. > That is a good E-mail address for him. > > Joe > > > >At 02:29 PM 6/13/04 -0700, you wrote: >>Paul, >> >>The reference came from an old Google search for "cctech" and floppy >>interfaces which pointed to a posting by a "Mike" with an address like: >>dogas@bellsouth.net I tried sending an Email but got no response. >> >>Best regards, Steven >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Paul Pennington" >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" >>Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 1:14 PM >>Subject: ET-3400 Floppy Drive >> >> >> Steven wrote: >> >> Anyone have the Kilobaud article where someone connected a FDD >>to a Heathkit ET-3400 ? >> >> I just looked through my end of year indexes for my >>Kilobaud/Microcomputing magazines, but I didn't see this article (or any >>ET-3400 articles, for that matter). Sometimes the titles hide the contents >>pretty well. If you can come up with an issue citation, I can make a copy >>of the article. >> >> Paul Pennington >>Augusta, Georgia >> >> >> >> >> > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 15 14:52:40 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: AMC/AMD Z-8000 Multibus pictures Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040615155240.00994790@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I just posted some pictures of the AMC/AMD Z-8000 Multibus chassis and cards that I found last week at . The chassis and CPU card are marked Advanced Micro Computer. AMC was a short lived division of Advanced Micro Devices (AMD). The CPU card is marked 96/4116 Monoboard. The other two cards are wire wrapped. Most of the ICs on them are SSI ICs but the one card has a bunch of Singnetics PLS 105N Programmable Logic Sequencers. Joe From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 15 15:10:50 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: floppy low level format question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087330249.2595.5.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 17:10, Tony Duell wrote: > I have a Micromation Doubler in my CASU Super C (S100 bus CP/M machine). > >From what I rmemeber the single-density (FM) format is standard, and can > read/write IBM3740 disks. The double density format, though, is probably > unique to this card. The Doubler! I forgot about that!! You're right of course, the DD format for the DOubler was it's downfall, it was built for 128 byte sectors, period, and being all-hardware wasn't programmable. WD chips killed it I guess. > > You can probably do all this in a PC sound card these days! > > Not many sound cards will handle 500kHz signals, surely? Who knows! What was once impossible is now routine, or worse, obsolete :-) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 15 15:21:56 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: AMC/AMD Z-8000 Multibus pictures Message-ID: <200406152021.NAA09884@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Joe Al Kossow has schematics for this board. I don't recall which ones were which but one of boards ( with a little bit of modifications ) could have CP/M-8000 brought up on it. If you want to try this with one of your intel floppy cards, I'd try to help you. I can compile the code on my Olivetti M20. It is mostly just getting the BIOS done and a little fiddle faddle with the addressing. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > > I just posted some pictures of the AMC/AMD Z-8000 Multibus chassis and >cards that I found last week at . The >chassis and CPU card are marked Advanced Micro Computer. AMC was a short >lived division of Advanced Micro Devices (AMD). The CPU card is marked >96/4116 Monoboard. The other two cards are wire wrapped. Most of the ICs on >them are SSI ICs but the one card has a bunch of Singnetics PLS 105N >Programmable Logic Sequencers. > > Joe > From tomj at wps.com Tue Jun 15 15:23:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Re: [GreenKeys] Teletype 33ASR and PDP8 Information] Message-ID: <1087331028.2750.8.camel@dhcp-250017.mobile.uci.edu> I'm taking the liberty to forward this post from another list regarding DEC info... Please reply to the author directly.... -----Forwarded Message----- From: Bob Camp To: Don Robert House Cc: greenkeys maillist Subject: Re: [GreenKeys] Teletype 33ASR and PDP8 Information Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:21:54 -0400 Hi The KL8 and KL11 interfaces (and for that matter the DL11's later on) had standard configuration entries for five level code. Has anybody come across DEC code that drove five level machines like model 28's? Obviously there was ham code out there that did the job, but was there anything from DEC? Thanks Bob Camp KB8TQ On Jun 11, 2004, at 6:52 PM, Don Robert House wrote: >> Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 17:48:47 -0500 >> To: "Roger F. Bindl - Webmaster" >> From: Don Robert House >> Subject: ADD LINK TO NADCOMM SITE >> >> Roger >> >> Please add this link to the NADCOMM website. >> >> 33ASR and PDP8 Technical Information: >> >> > Search=teletype&stype=Partial+Word&dtype=Document+Sets&submit=Submit+Q >> uery> > > _______________________________________________ > GreenKeys mailing list > GreenKeys@mailman.qth.net > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys > _______________________________________________ GreenKeys mailing list GreenKeys@mailman.qth.net http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/greenkeys From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 15 18:05:03 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <28917282.1087317713446.JavaMail.root@misspiggy.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Steve Thatcher wrote: > to all the ranters (no matter what the subject), apply > Thumper's Rule to what you say - in the movie Bambi - Thumper > the rabbit was told by his mother - "if you can't say anything > nice, then don't say anything at all." This list is for classic > computers. Any chance you all can keep your personal feelings > from wasting email bandwidth. On the other hand, Alice Roosevelt Longworth was responsible for that marvellous gem "If you haven't got anything nice to say about anybody, come and sit next to me." I think it has a lot more charm! - don > best regards, Steve Thatcher > > -----Original Message----- > From: der Mouse > Sent: Jun 15, 2004 11:30 AM > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... > > > [...rant about the general dislike of peecees...] > > > [they're here and not going away]. So lets stop the bashing, and > > just LEARN TO DEAL WITH IT! > > Learn to deal with it, yes. > > But I don't see that as a reason to stop the bashing. If the > criticisms were unfair, perhaps. But even you, in your rant, admit > they're broken on many levels (as compared to most other machines); I > see no particular reason to stop pointing out something that's broken > just because we're stuck with its presence. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From vp at cs.drexel.edu Tue Jun 15 18:21:45 2004 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> "David V. Corbin" wrote: > As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many > here.[...] but this forum centers on variance, if everything is the same, what is the point of discussing/preserving it. The differences/peculiarities/innovations exhibited by many of the old machines make them so fascinating. If you give me a 20 year old PC, it will take me no time to setup it up with DOS and even networking. But what would be the point, I can do the same thing in a VMware window on my Linux workstation. The neat thing about the old machines is that it takes for ever to set them up and this is what's so intriguing about them. I remember a posting (not in this forum), about a guy who got an old IBM 360 mainframe working. He said that once it was working there wasn't much to do with it. > IF the computer industry had remained with a large number of completely > different hardware/software environments which required trained operators > for even the most basic operations, then computing would not have become a > household commodity. > [...] > Standardization of both hardware and software HAD TO HAPPEN, if computers > were to become the commodity they are today. I am afraid that computing standardised too early causing everybody to get locked into a technology that is too clunky. Microsoft's "innovation" essentially boils down to two things: a) adding useless junk to their already bloated platforms, and b) adding "essential" applications (e.g. Web, or audio) to their base platform so as to dictate the standards and eliminate competition. This strategy, although excellent for Microsoft, is to the detriment of everybody else. I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). I will soon have to move to something more recent mainly because vendors do not support Windows NT, so I will not have the drivers to run Windows NT on my new hardware. PC hardware *is* a commodity, but never be fooled into thinking that Windows software is also a commodity. **vp From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 15 18:35:46 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net> <10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040616002637.04f93c18@pop.freeserve.net> At 18:45 15/06/2004, you wrote: >On Jun 15, 17:22, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > > > >I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again > > >though. > > > > > >It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some >assorted > > >80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween >:) > > >but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server > > >software any more :-( > > > I should still have enough equipment and software about to set up at >least > > two of the various BBC-micro based servers which I ran at various >times, > > including the multi-user software that the GnomeAtHome ran on which I >had > > an official copy of... > >Wasn't that basically CommunITeL? I still have a copy, and I think I >have a copy of at least one other server package for a Beeb. I used to >run a viewdata BBS for a short while. Well everybody had copies of CommunITel, but TG@H was completely re-written by Glynn Phillips, and did a hell of a lot more. It was nice and easy to add modules to, etc. I did a nice simple one where it would translate a text file into viewdata pages on the fly.. (and work with the go-back-a-page commands, etc) not to mention software to run chatlines etc.. (handy for my four line BBS at the time.) I had six Beebs at one point, plus fileserver, all running this from my bedroom - I'd go to sleep listening to the hard disc on the fileserver chattering away as people used the system.. > > (Ah, the joys of building ring-detect circuits for cheap and nasty >1200 > > baud modems that didn't have them..) > >'cause BABT made it so difficult (and ludicrously expensive) to get >approval. I built one that did ringback in hardware, so we could tell >whether it was a BBS call or a real person (only had one phone line). > For those who've not come across this usage of "ringback", it means a >system where the caller hangs up after the first ring, then immediately >redials. The modem only responds if the first ring is short enough, >and the second follows after a minimum (but still within a maximum) >time. LOL. And weren't they just a pain in the neck.. I used to maintain the BBS list on ClubSpot 810, all those boards which were ringback only, open for short hours every other Tuesday.. backtracking a bit, someone did mention to me a while back that a backup of the entire Viewfax 258 system was still about, looking for a home. You could probably fit the entire Prestel database on a single CD ROM several times over these days... when an ISP was given an initial allocation of 500 pages of 768 characters each, the total database size couldn't have been huge. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Tue Jun 15 18:42:19 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <10406151846.ZM10588@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk> <1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <10406151846.ZM10588@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040616003620.0505db88@pop.freeserve.net> At 18:46 15/06/2004, you wrote: >On Jun 15, 9:31, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted > > 80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) > > but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server > > software any more :-( > >If only for local use, a small PBX or a few line emulators would do. > > > Even if they did have the server software, I can't see them having a > > snapshot of live data from the 80's which is what would make it >really > > interesting. I don't really fancy writing a few hundred fake pages >:-) > >You might be able to get some pages from peopel who used to run BBC >BBSs. Or people Rob and I know might have some dusty archives. Um yes, somewhere in my email I have contacts for a few people, plus the BBS stuff of course... > > I've heard mention of some sort of viewdata server system there (not > > Prestel), although I haven't personally stumbled across it in storage > > yet (no room currently to have it on display!). PDP hardware IIRC. > >Some of the commercial systems did indeed use the ubiquitous PDP-11, >but the real thing ran on GEC hardware. I used to have edit access to the viewdata system run by British Rail, accessibly via a gateway from Prestel itself. I may still have some of the docs for the bulk upload interface, but I have no idea what hardware it ran on... It was rare that we ever saw the actual hardware that was at the end of a modem or comms link :-) Rob From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jun 15 18:45:42 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Hey Hey 16K In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles > P. Hobbs (SoCalTip) > Sent: 15 June 2004 18:22 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Hey Hey 16K > > > If you hacked around with 8-bit computers in the 80's you'll get this. > http://www2.b3ta.com/heyhey16k/ Hahahahaha! I've been with b3ta for 2 and a half years now and I never thought we'd penetrate the classicmp mailing list :) Result! Cheers w From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jun 15 18:48:04 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: What is this??? - Update In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040615172258.03faa9f8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob O'Donnell > Sent: 15 June 2004 17:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What is this??? - Update > Prism, incidentally, manufactured the standalone modems, and > an integrated modem/interface/software box for the ZX > Spectrum, and then promptly went out of business. Micronet > bought up all the stock, untested, and was therefore able to > give them away free if you subscribed. The number we got > back as faulty was amazing .... we didn't even check them > when someone returned one, just sent out another.. It was > not uncommon for people to get two or three faulty ones in a row.... This is because the caps on the power input line failed; it was the most common death of Prism VTX 5000 modems, and people who still want one can have one new in the box because they're still available for about ukp15 with the same faults they had back then :) Cheers w From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 15 07:03:26 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <002501c452d0$c44a85f0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vassilis Prevelakis" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 7:21 PM Subject: Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... > "David V. Corbin" wrote: > > As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many > > here.[...] > but this forum centers on variance, if everything is the same, what is the > point of discussing/preserving it. > > The differences/peculiarities/innovations exhibited by many of the old > machines make them so fascinating. If you give me a 20 year old PC, > it will take me no time to setup it up with DOS and even networking. > But what would be the point, I can do the same thing in a VMware > window on my Linux workstation. > > The neat thing about the old machines is that it takes for ever to set > them up and this is what's so intriguing about them. I remember a > posting (not in this forum), about a guy who got an old IBM 360 > mainframe working. He said that once it was working there wasn't much > to do with it. > There are allot of things you can do with vintage computers of the last 20 years besides just getting them to run. A computer is more then just the basic hardware and the OS. I like running older software on vintage machines because there is less bloat, earlier versions don't have the added complexity of functions new users wont need, and all the software came with large printed manuals instead of an empty box. It is also cheaper to mess around with an old version of Mathematica, AutoCAD, PageMaker, MathCAD then it is to buy a newer version. Some people like me prefer the old 2D single player type games from the 80's and 90's that you don't find today on any of the newer machines (and no emulators are not good enough). I like using the many ISA data acquisition cards I own that wont fit into new machines. There is all kinds of interesting hardware and software that you cant find for machines other then vintage PCs, Amigas, Macs, Ataris. If just getting an old rig to run is all there is for you, you are missing quite a bit of the hobby. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 15 18:25:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 15, 4 09:31:22 am Message-ID: > > I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again > though. There were viewdata servers for quite small machines -- I think there was one that ran on the RML380Z, for example. Obviously not Prestel (there wouldn't be enough disk space for all the pages), but it might be a start. Pretel terminal adpaters existed for most micros. I have C64 one somewhere, there was one for the Beeb (in the 'cheese wedge case' -- that was one of the reasons for the teletext video mode (MODE 7) on the beeb, of course), the ill-fated Tiger had all the hardware built in, and so on. And of course there where the dedicated Viewdata terminals used for things like home banking. Often based on the Philips SAA50x0 teletext chipset for the diuplay and the SAA5070 LUCY chip for the modem. Philips made their own Viewdata display unit too, and a right kludge it was (I have one...) For the real enthusiast, try to find the first 'networked TV'. This is a Philips (what else!) G11 chassis with a plinth under the cabinet containing a teletext decoder, the LUCY chip, phone line interface, etc. Dates from around 1976/1977 IIRC... Somewhere (and Bletchley are NOT GETTING IT), I have a Plessey modem (all discrete components in the GPO case that's about 14" square and 6" high) that doess 1200 baud transmit, 75 receive. Sounds like a viewdata host unit to me... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 15 18:33:21 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Jun 15, 4 07:25:28 am Message-ID: > > > Fair warning, the following message contains the ratings of a single > individual. > > >>>> Sounds like somebody grabbed the old machines when a school downgraded > their computer facilities to PCs... > > As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many Not at all!. I stand by what I said, and it has nothing to do with being anti-PC. IMHO the Acorn Archimedes (and the Beeb before it) is a better machine for teaching computing than the PC. Teaching computing is not teaching what key to press, or what to click with the mouse in Word, Excel, or whatever word processor and spreadsheet are favourite this week If you understand the principles you can pick up the latest applications in an afternoon at most (and any you learn now will probably have been replaced in a few years anyway). Spreadsheets are a good example. Far too many people use them without a clear understanding of rounding errors, stability of algorithms, convergence, and so on. The results may well be meaningless as a result (I have seen this happen from 'scientists' who darn well should know better!). > here. While I completely agree that there are significant *problems* with > both the hardware and (Windoze) software, I do believe that the more extreme FWIW< I've been through the schematics of all the original IBM machines. To say there are 'significant problems' is probably the understatement of the year! -tony From ken at seefried.com Tue Jun 15 19:35:50 2004 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: Any MacIvory boards from Symbolics? Was: Macs: Billions In-Reply-To: <200406120127.i5C1R9hk065792@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406120127.i5C1R9hk065792@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040616003550.21253.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: chris > >Did the MacIvory card come in another other format? LC PDS maybe? A >number of AIO macs have LC PDS slots. Nope...only a multilayer, full length NuBus card. See: http://www.abstractscience.freeserve.co.uk/symbolics/photos/MacIvory-3/index .html Ken From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 15 20:19:24 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:31 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest > and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office > 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 15 20:46:29 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 15, 2004 08:19:24 PM Message-ID: <200406160146.i5G1kTHT008454@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest > > and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office > > 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) Maybe the list simply needs to take a firm non-Windows stance, or else specifically OK non-Windows HW that would otherwise be blocked by the 10 year (or whatever it might get expanded to) rule. I for one don't care to see any posts about Windows, but wouldn't object to posts about say the Amiga OS 4.0 beta or an SGI Tezro. Zane From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 15 20:49:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <002501c452d0$c44a85f0$0500fea9@game> References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040615214948.009adad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:03 AM 6/15/04 -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: >> >> The neat thing about the old machines is that it takes for ever to set >> them up and this is what's so intriguing about them. I remember a >> posting (not in this forum), about a guy who got an old IBM 360 >> mainframe working. He said that once it was working there wasn't much >> to do with it. >> > >There are allot of things you can do with vintage computers of the last 20 >years besides just getting them to run. A computer is more then just the >basic hardware and the OS. I like running older software on vintage machines >because there is less bloat, earlier versions don't have the added >complexity of functions new users wont need, and all the software came with >large printed manuals instead of an empty box. It is also cheaper to mess >around with an old version of Mathematica, AutoCAD, PageMaker, MathCAD then >it is to buy a newer version. Some people like me prefer the old 2D single >player type games from the 80's and 90's that you don't find today on any of >the newer machines (and no emulators are not good enough). I like using the >many ISA data acquisition cards I own that wont fit into new machines. There >is all kinds of interesting hardware and software that you cant find for >machines other then vintage PCs, Amigas, Macs, Ataris. If just getting an >old rig to run is all there is for you, you are missing quite a bit of the >hobby. Well Said! Too many members of this list simply collect old computers and don't bother with the related docs, manuals or application programs. I have an old original 64k IBM PC and it's been very intersting collecting original software and peripherals for it. Things like DOS 1.0, CPM-86, uSCD Pascal, Professional Fortran, PolyForth, IBM GPIB software, early versions of MS Word and MultiPlan, EasyWriter (written by none other than Capt'n Crunch!), etc etc. And that's just the software, it doesn't include all the various Tech Refs and all the fasinating 3rd party cards and peripherals. I don't like the current over-bloated version-of-the-day MicroSoft products either but it doesn't mean that the early PCs are uninteresting and not worth collecting. Joe From haefele at mchsi.com Tue Jun 15 21:15:07 2004 From: haefele at mchsi.com (Douglas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Raidion LTX SCSI to SCSI raid system Message-ID: Morning All, I've pulled an old Raidion LTX SCSI RAID out of the closet in hopes of using it to backup a small server (SS20) and need some help getting it running again. For example, is replacing the drives a simple swap? The existing ones are Micropolis 3243's but 2 of the four are dead and I'd like to replace them with 4 Seagate 9.1GB narrow drives that are handy. The company appears moribund (www.raidionsystems.com). The online links to manuals are dead and email to the tech support address is returned as undeliverable. Phone calls to Tech Support get voicemail but no return call. Web searching leads to old product reviews, the company homepage, and not much else that's useful. Appreciate any leads to manuals or other documentation. TIA for your help, Doug From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 15 09:43:10 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <002501c452e7$144e3810$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 9:19 PM Subject: Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest > > and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office > > 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) > I don't see a problem talking about 3rd party pre win95 hardware and software that's 10 years old or older. Stock prebuilt systems and their associated problems are boring to me also. To be honest editing a win 3.1 *.ini file, making DOS batch files do cool things, getting a 386 with Desqview/X and a Mac running A/UX to run each others X windows programs, etc will be long forgotten in another 10 years of point and click never touched the hardware computing. How many people today know how to troubleshoot IRQ problems or get 2 soundcards working fine in one DOS machine. The point is not to turn the list into a Windows tech center for the top 1000 common and easy to google a fix for problems. Just a thought. TZ From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 15 21:52:42 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406160146.i5G1kTHT008454@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > Maybe the list simply needs to take a firm non-Windows stance, I would like to see a non Windows, PeeCee, DOS, or Linux stance. All of these certainly are on topic for the list, but c'mon folks, there are eighty million forums for these four topics, and just a few for old computers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 15 21:57:55 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) Yay! Make it 15 years...or more... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 15 22:13:46 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: <200406160313.UAA10298@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Joe R." ---snip--- >I don't like the current over-bloated version-of-the-day MicroSoft products >either but it doesn't mean that the early PCs are uninteresting and not >worth collecting. > > Joe > Hi I have Joe address so just ask me and I'll give it to you to send your old junk computers, hardware and software. Dwight PS just kidding. Your right Joe, it is all information that is being lost. The problem is for the most part, we still have to pick and choose. Not many people want a 1951 chevy either. Now, a 1957 Nomad, I'd consider that. From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 15 22:41:22 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Jay West wrote: > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest > > and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office > > 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) Yeah, when was Windows 3.0 (i.e. the beginning of the end)? 1990 right? I think (any prior) makes a good general rule. Nice and easy to remember. Exceptions apply. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 15 22:43:30 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406160146.i5G1kTHT008454@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest > > > and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office > > > 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). > > > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) > > Maybe the list simply needs to take a firm non-Windows stance, or else > specifically OK non-Windows HW that would otherwise be blocked by the 10 > year (or whatever it might get expanded to) rule. > > I for one don't care to see any posts about Windows, but wouldn't object to > posts about say the Amiga OS 4.0 beta or an SGI Tezro. I think that's a bit absolute. In 6 years, when Windows 3.0 will be 20 years old, if someone wishes to set up a Windows 3.0 box for a historical exhibit, it should be perfectly acceptable to discuss that here. (I told you exceptions will apply ;') -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From esharpe at uswest.net Tue Jun 15 22:50:01 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! References: Message-ID: <000d01c45355$024f6620$7b00a8c0@portablechouse> thats nice but if that site went away then what?? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 11:04 AM Subject: Re: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! > On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > > > was going through some books to add to the reference library here at the > > museum and ran across a most excellent book > > > > Computer Structures: Readings and Examples by Gordon Bell..... has the > > inside facts on many early system and even the 9100A HP calc. > > > > also to my surprise I found it online at the below listed url. > > > > > > http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html > > > > If you have plesnty of disc space you may want to archive it in case > > this link ever goes away.... > > It won't. Gordon Bell is a huge believer in permanent web archiving. He > puts everything online now. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From kenziem at sympatico.ca Tue Jun 15 23:03:56 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406160003.56299.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 15 June 2004 23:41, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Jay West wrote: > > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the > > > latest and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 > > > with Office 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year > > > boundary :-). > > > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) > > Yeah, when was Windows 3.0 (i.e. the beginning of the end)? 1990 right? > I think (any prior) makes a good general rule. Nice and easy to > remember. Let's not forget BOB - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAz8asLPrIaE/xBZARAqDXAKDJQcYjY7Y3nI6KpDi0YC705DOwbwCgjYqI aTyGhw042oVXNKRnMDmL5s4= =TPEb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 15 23:20:00 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406152320.00812.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 15 June 2004 21:52, William Donzelli wrote: > > Maybe the list simply needs to take a firm non-Windows stance, > > I would like to see a non Windows, PeeCee, DOS, or Linux stance. All of > these certainly are on topic for the list, but c'mon folks, there are > eighty million forums for these four topics, and just a few for old > computers. While I mostly agree, we might want to make an exception for discussing emulators of classic systems on such OSes (like running simh under linux or Winderz). But as a general "Don't ask Windows questions here" rule I'd tend to agree. I think that's better than extending the 'oldness' limit, as there are some machines (like DEC Alphas, IBM RS/6000s, Sun or SGI workstations, etc) that I'd consider as valid for this list (within the age constraint) as compared to, say, a Commodore 64 or Amiga 1000. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Jun 15 23:25:41 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040616001056.04b44a10@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Vintage Computer Festival may have mentioned these words: >On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Jay West wrote: > > > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the latest > > > and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows NT4.0 with Office > > > 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 year boundary :-). > > > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) > >Yeah, when was Windows 3.0 (i.e. the beginning of the end)? 1990 right? >I think (any prior) makes a good general rule. Nice and easy to >remember. > >Exceptions apply. I hope so... else later CoCo3s would become offtopic. [ahem... again ;-) ] Personally, I don't have a problem with discussion re: Win <= 3.0, Linux (kernel) <= 1.0.x [PC|MS]DOS <= 5.x because getting those systems running could be a lot more challenging... hell, even linux nowadays is "point-n-click setup ooey-GUI from the getgo." (Well, if you don't count LinuxFromScratch -- I've been having a lot of fun with that... ;-) ) Of course, if the revised charter excludes those, I can certainly live with it. If the revised charter excludes my beloved CoCo3s... well... them's fighten' wordz... :^> [[ As an aside -- the list *itself* is "gettin' up there..." over 7 years old now, if memory serves. How many of us "original dudez" are left... say, within the first 20 or 30 subscribers... A show of hands, maybe? ;-) Sellam, I see your hand is raised, mine's up as well... ]] Oh, and has anyone heard anything recently (within the last year or so) WRT Bill Whitson's status? Maybe he'll show up mysteriously at VCFeast? Is it Friday yet??? ;-P Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers zmerch@30below.com Hi! I am a .signature virus. Copy me into your .signature to join in! From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 15 23:26:03 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! In-Reply-To: <000d01c45355$024f6620$7b00a8c0@portablechouse> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > thats nice but if that site went away then what?? As much as it would please (and shock) me to see microsoft.com go away, I don't think that's going to happen any time soon. Say or think what you want about Microsoft, but they are (for better or worse) here to stay. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 15 23:39:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040616001056.04b44a10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > because getting those systems running could be a lot more challenging... > hell, even linux nowadays is "point-n-click setup ooey-GUI from the getgo." Thank Gawd for that. > (Well, if you don't count LinuxFromScratch -- I've been having a lot of fun > with that... ;-) ) Sounds intriguing. > Of course, if the revised charter excludes those, I can certainly live with > it. If the revised charter excludes my beloved CoCo3s... well... them's > fighten' wordz... :^> CoCo3's SUCK! (Just kidding :) > [[ As an aside -- the list *itself* is "gettin' up there..." over 7 years > old now, if memory serves. How many of us "original dudez" are left... say, > within the first 20 or 30 subscribers... A show of hands, maybe? ;-) > Sellam, I see your hand is raised, mine's up as well... ]] Yeah, I guess we'll be able to discuss the list itself in another 3 years ;) > Oh, and has anyone heard anything recently (within the last year or so) WRT > Bill Whitson's status? I wonder that myself from time to time. The last I remember his van, in which he stored part of his collection, was broken into, and, based on the amount of blood Bill found in the cab, the thief had found the razor blades Bill had mounted underneath his dash (ouch!) > Maybe he'll show up mysteriously at VCFeast? Is it Friday yet??? ;-P Still need to get that hotel room block going... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 16 00:19:03 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: Message-ID: <002d01c45361$70b8aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Thank Gawd for that. Unix *IS* user-friendly, it's just picky about who it calls a friend ;) I'm thinking of several ways to avoid this becoming a windows support area. I'm not hip on windows being a valid topic here, or commodity clone PC's for a lot of reasons. Key of which is that in my opinion, that system is responsible for the decline of the true art of computer science (but albeit the rise of giant computer industry). The systems, and in general a lot of the software after that are so cookie-cutter as to not have any soul. While faster, cheaper, etc... there are no really new ideas in them. Just reapplication of age old concepts. It's the period when these age old concepts were discovered, put forth, and formed that we really seek to preserve. One can make a good case for the initial home PC market - c64, apple, exidy, atari, trs80, etc... as being historically significant. One simply can't make that argument for later generic clone PC's. In my mind, most of us here wish to preserve the ART of computer science, not necessarily machines of a specific age - thus I think an age limit isn't really a great way to do this. Also, I think IBM 5150's are on topic for example. It's a nebulous thing to pin down. Easy to understand but hard to express. I don't think any of us started collecting with the first idea being "I'm going to collect systems that are 10 years old". We aimed for specific beloved machines.... PDP8's, 11's, HP1K's, DG nova/eclipse, etc. Most of us then branched out into other systems in that period, because there were other interesting systems in that timeframe. I'll have to give this some thought... Jay From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 00:19:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Sell or Trade TC01? Message-ID: I've got a friend who's looking for a TC01 for sale or trade. Does anyone have one? Please e-mail me and I'll put you in touch with the interested party... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 00:44:20 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002d01c45361$70b8aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Jay West wrote: > One can make a good case for the initial home PC market - c64, apple, exidy, > atari, trs80, etc... as being historically significant. One simply can't > make that argument for later generic clone PC's. You mean individually, each as examples in their own right, or collectively? In the former case, I agree (to a certain extent). But in the latter case, PC clones definitely have their place in history. They represent the commoditization of the computer industry. > I'll have to give this some thought... I don't think it's a simple answer. But really, I don't think this will ever become a forum for discussing PCs and Windows. For one, not many people on the list would tolerate this happening. For another, there are so many better machines to discuss. It's not like PC or Windows discussions, if they are allowed to take place, would become the norm and supplant the discussions we currently find topical. If an occasional thread pops up then I don't see a problem with that. If it's a stupid question that can be answered by searching Google and newsgroups then we can mercilessly flame the offending poster. But there definitely will be, at some point, very topical discussions about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa Local Bus motherboards or interface cards around anymore? I say, don't worry about it. It won't happen for a while yet, and in the meantime we can continue to enjoy the 10 Year Rule. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jun 16 01:25:42 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: Message-ID: <000c01c4536a$c055e530$2201a8c0@finans> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > But really, I don't think this will ever become a forum for discussing PCs > and Windows. The way I see it, there are various answers. Technical Windows/PC questions dont belong here, as there are more suitable NG's to deal with that kind of problems. The word "folklore" as I understand it in this context, is (1) old things (most of us are old fartsanyway, aint we?), and (2) things we can amuse ourselves with, such as the thread on the strangest things found in a system or how many tapes (3420) you can carry on one arm. This definition of folklore could also include PC's. If we want to limit ourselves to OLD computers, maybe the name of the newsgroup should be change to alt.old.computers. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07-06-2004 From e.huininga at sozawe.groningen.nl Wed Jun 16 02:38:08 2004 From: e.huininga at sozawe.groningen.nl (Eelco Huininga) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Betr.: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) Message-ID: In the late 80's early 90's I wrote a viewdata BBS for the Acorn BBC. Due to the fact that my beeb is currently broken I have no means of sorting all my disks. When I find the time to fix it I'll probably find this program. Cheers, Eelco >>> Jules Richardson 06/15 11:31 >>> On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 01:53, Pete Turnbull wrote: > There were quite a few other viewdata services besides Prestel. Some > large businesses used viewdata, a few bulletin boards did, the Open > University, some banks, and it was widely used by travel agents -- > there was a special system run by a consortium for clearing holiday > bookings. Derivatives included the French Minitel service, Germany's > Bildschirmtext, and Canada had something too. The last commercial > viewdata system I know of (Bank of Scotland HOBS service) finally > closed last month (though it may still be running for special > purposes). I'd love to see the server-side of things running somewhere again though. It'd be nice to have a Prestel server at Bletchley with some assorted 80's machines hooked up to it (bodging the phone network inbetween :) but chances are that nobody's got a copy of the necessary server software any more :-( Even if they did have the server software, I can't see them having a snapshot of live data from the 80's which is what would make it really interesting. I don't really fancy writing a few hundred fake pages :-) I've heard mention of some sort of viewdata server system there (not Prestel), although I haven't personally stumbled across it in storage yet (no room currently to have it on display!). PDP hardware IIRC. I'll have to find some more details and then see how viable it is to get running again... > It would seem that there is little point in finishing off the rough > edges on my X-Windows Prestel terminal software ;-) See above :-) cheers Jules From cannings at earthlink.net Tue Jun 15 16:33:57 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator References: <200406150000.RAA08974@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <001501c45320$790053e0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Dwight, Is it written in micro-FORTH or FIG FORTH ? Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:00 PM Subject: Re: Cool 4004 based calculator > Hi > I thought I'd mention that I've written a simulator > for the 4004 in the environment of a SIM-4. One > could adapt it to most any hardware environment. > It is written in Forth so it can be quite flexible > for someone that knows Forth. > If anyone is interested, I can dig it up. With > a little time to refamiliarize myself with the > code, I can help connect up I/O. > It runs under FPC on a DOS PC platform. There is > a simple assembler and disassembler as well. > For someone wanting to do a 4004 project, it can > be quite useful at debugging code and hardware > concepts. > Dwight > > > From haefele at mchsi.com Tue Jun 15 20:23:20 2004 From: haefele at mchsi.com (Douglas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Raidion LTX SCSI to SCSI raid cerca 1994 Message-ID: Morning All, I've pulled an old Raidion LTX SCSI RAID out of the closet in hopes of using it to backup a small server (SS20) and need some help getting it running again. For example, is replacing the drives a simple swap? The existing ones are Micropolis 3243's but 2 of the four are dead and I'd like to replace them with 4 Seagate 9.1GB narrow drives that are handy. The company appears moribund (www.raidionsystems.com). The online links to manuals are dead and email to the tech support address is returned as undeliverable. Phone calls to Tech Support get voicemail but no return call. Web searching leads to old product reviews, the company homepage, and not much else that's useful. Appreciate any leads to manuals or other documentation. TIA for your help, Doug From henk.stegeman at shell.com Wed Jun 16 02:26:39 2004 From: henk.stegeman at shell.com (Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITADEI) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: IBM cassette tapes. Message-ID: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0368CC8C@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> Hi, Does anyone have technical information of the IBM cassette tapes used to load diagnostic programs in systems like the IBM System/7, IBM System/3 and the original IBM PC 5150 ? I am looking for the used frequencies (fsk), the data speed, the format, etc etc. Thanks for all your replies. Regards Henk Stegeman IBM S/7 restorer. http://www.anysystems.nl/system7.html From squidster at techie.com Wed Jun 16 02:43:54 2004 From: squidster at techie.com (wai-sun chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: DEC Professional 350 Message-ID: <20040616074354.318B079005F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Hello list, I've been recently offered a Pro350 unit, depending on whether I can get past my budget and the wife. :-) Said unit has 256kB RAM and a 10MB disk, presumably a RD51. No operating system. 4 SLU async card. VR201 monochrome monitor. F-11 CPU (LSI-11/23). Some questions I have: 1. What OS can I run on this system? (Yes, I've heard the nightmares of the Piece of S* O/S). I was thinking in lines of RT-11...if so possible, then where can I get RT-11 for the Pro350? Is RSX-11 available for the Pro350? 2. Correct me if I'm wrong: Since it's the F-11 CPU, then it'll be limited to 18-bit addressing, therefore maximum RAM supported is 256kB, right? 3. Can I "upgrade" the RD51 with a RD54? Perhaps that depends of the bootROM and O/S support, right? Thanks. /wai-sun -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From mreimann at batalpha.com Wed Jun 16 03:16:45 2004 From: mreimann at batalpha.com (Michael Reimann) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Searching for HP LA Inverse Assembler toolkit Message-ID: <40D001ED.6030106@batalpha.com> Hello Jim, I've just bought a HP1652B logic analyser on eBay. Now I'm searching for the 10391b Inverse Assembler toolkit. I've found your posting from 2002 on classiccmp.org. The files don't seem to be downloadable from Agilent's FTP server anymore. So may I kindly ask you if you could please send me the files for the toolkit and Agilent's IAs by e-mail ? Thank you for your help ! Greetings from Germany Michael -- Michael Reimann . Hardware Development batalpha Bobach GmbH . Germany . www.batalpha.com From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Wed Jun 16 03:38:02 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: LPS (Digital PrintServer) questions In-Reply-To: <0406092246.AA02778@ivan.Harhan.ORG> (Michael Sokolov's message of "Wed, 9 Jun 04 15:46:22 PDT") References: <0406092246.AA02778@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <0qu0xbnbit.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> http://www1.sqp.com/MasterIndex/installation_guide/installation_guide_005833b0.txt has an install guide for the host sw. msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes: > PostScript interpreter. However, the firmware image for this VAX, > containing the PS interpreter and everything else, does not reside in > ROM but is instead down-line loaded on powerup over Ethernet, I presume > via MOP. The LPS20's, LPS32's and LPS40's I used to run indeed worked via MOP. According to http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_5960.html, an LPS17 can also boot via bootp. > So here comes my first question to the list: does anyone have an LPS > firmware image or is one publicly available on some archive site? I probably have something (tk50 or cd) that has VMS LPS sw on it, and I might have ultrix or osf/1-digitalunix-tru64, but I'm not at all sure when I'd have time to dig it out. It might well be on a dec consolidated sw distro if you could find one; lots of people (perhaps including your local dec dealer...) should have those, and be able to check the T.O.C. for you. In addition to the OS image, there is a remote console program. They seem to have sold the host sw for aix, hp-ux, sunos, solaris, and some flavor of windows in addition to vms, ultrix, and osf/1-digitalunix-tru64. > DEC docs seem to imply that the firmware is the same for all LPS'es, is > this true or not? I need an image that can run on LPS17 as that's the > only LPS I can get. The images are different. Only the LPS 17, 17/600, and 32 Plus could do Level 2 postscript. Different machines had different cpu bus interfaces, ethernet controllers, and numbers of input and output trays, and they were based on at least three very different print engines. The 17/600 could do 600dpi, while the 40 certainly could not, and the 17's also had HP PCL5 ROMs in them, although I do not know if you could use the machine as a pcl printer without going thru a network boot first. > Second question. It is my understanding that once an LPS has booted its > firmware, it becomes an independent node on the network accepting print > jobs from anywhere on the network. Is this true or not? yep. though having a console and logging host isn't bad. >... The protocols > it speaks are DECnet and TCP/IP, right? The 17 certainly does both, I'm not sure the 40 ever did IP. >... If so, how does it obtain its > DECnet and IP addresses? And if I want only one of the two, how do I > configure it? Does it down-line load a configuration file from the MOP > server along with the firmware image specifying DECnet and IP addresses? > What is the format of this file? Yep, it downloads a config file. I'm not sure of the format, but the sw kit that contains the firmware images and console program has a program that generates it. > Third question. It is my understanding that the protocol spoken over TCP/IP > is extremely simple: no LPR/LPD or anything like that, just a simple TCP > port, you connect to it and everything sent to that TCP port goes to the > PostScript interpreter's %stdin, and this port is 170. Is my understanding > correct? Varies by model, I'm pretty sure. See http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_3960.html http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_4045.html http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_3960.html implication seems to be that the 17 does raw postscript on port 2501, plus also speaking lpd at the usual place, and that port 170 is used by a magic dec printer protocol that might or might not be raw postscript with some wrapper and escape sequences added. > Fourth question. Is this PostScript-over-Ethernet connection on TCP port > 170 binary clean, or is 0x04 (^D) interpreted as end of one PS job and > beginning of the next? In other words, does my lpd on the 4.3BSD host > driving it need to send a 0x04 between print jobs or should it close the > TCP connection and reopen it instead? I would think that it would have to be binary clean, because otherwise a control-d in some eps file would trash the connection; if one is speaking postscript, I would expect a /showpage or somesuch to be end of job. Of course, the implementation could be brain-dead, but I would hope not, since they likely had postscript printer people making these things, and not the rather iffy ultrix folks. > Fifth question. Is there any access control mechanism by which LPS firmware > can be configured to accept connections only from certain sources, or will > it always accept connections (and print jobs) from the entire Universe? Seems to be allow and deny lists for decnet and ip. --akb From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 16 04:01:35 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: LPS (Digital PrintServer) questions Message-ID: <0406160901.AA14983@ivan.Harhan.ORG> akb+lists.cctech@imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) wrote: > [incredible wealth of great useful info] Andrew, thank you very much for such a detailed answer packed with actual information! Earlier today, though, I sent someone a check for an HP LaserJet 4Si, so in all likelihood I'll be using that as my printer. I worked with those before and I love its engine and the way it's built, it's a great printer, and it can be equipped with a duplexer, which is extremely important for me. Since I'm a ClassicCmp'er, my printing consists mostly of specs, manuals and datasheets, and I need duplex for that. Though 4Si has only a parallel port on the base unit and is usually equipped with a JetDirect Ethernet MIO card, I have found that there exists an MIO parallel/serial card and an HP printer parts dealer is willing to sell me one. If I equip my 4Si with that card and with the PostScript SIMM, I could use it as a pure serial PostScript printer and pretend that it's a DEC LN03R. (I would also want to disable PCL and make it PS-only. HP doesn't really want you to be able to do it, but it can be set to PostScript personality in the menu. It doesn't disable PJL commands and those can still throw it back into PCL, but blocking the ESC character in the UNIX daemon/filter driving it will stop it.) Oh well, at least I'm glad I've found the MIO card for it with a serial port, so I won't have to connect it to Ethernet (in fact I'll remove the JetDirect card and put it in the closet out of my sight as soon as I get it). It's just awful, a protocol kitchen sink. But I may still some day get to play with an LPS, so I have saved your information-packed message for that day. Thanks again! MS From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Jun 16 05:03:55 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: <200406160146.i5G1kTHT008454@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040616055925.034bc320@192.168.0.1> At 11:43 PM 6/15/2004, you wrote: > > Maybe the list simply needs to take a firm non-Windows stance, or else > > specifically OK non-Windows HW that would otherwise be blocked by the 10 > > year (or whatever it might get expanded to) rule. > > > > I for one don't care to see any posts about Windows, but wouldn't object to > > posts about say the Amiga OS 4.0 beta or an SGI Tezro. > >I think that's a bit absolute. In 6 years, when Windows 3.0 will be 20 >years old, if someone wishes to set up a Windows 3.0 box for a historical >exhibit, it should be perfectly acceptable to discuss that here. I think the key is, "things that aren't used much anymore". Far away from the madding crowd and all that. So, use 10 years from the time something was superseded? Win 3.1 was superseded by Win95. Win95 hasn't really been superseded yet. Ten years after everyone started using Unix derivatives then Windows would certainly be on-topic. Ed From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 16 05:49:49 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406160313.UAA10298@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040616064949.008eeb90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:13 PM 6/15/04 -0700, Dwight wrote: > >>From: "Joe R." >---snip--- >>I don't like the current over-bloated version-of-the-day MicroSoft products >>either but it doesn't mean that the early PCs are uninteresting and not >>worth collecting. >> >> Joe >> > >Hi > I have Joe address so just ask me and I'll give >it to you to send your old junk computers, hardware >and software. >Dwight > >PS just kidding. Your right Joe, it is all information > that is being lost. The problem is for the most part, > we still have to pick and choose. Not many people > want a 1951 chevy either. Now, a 1957 Nomad, I'd consider > that. I'm not that picky, I'll take ANY 50s Chevy (or PC) that you want to send me :-) I can throw the stuff out just as easily as you can. Joe From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 16 06:01:55 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: age limits for classic computers Message-ID: <8929828.1087383715535.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> set an age limit only (make it 15 or 20 years). It is quite fair to have someone email in and say they are trying to get old hardware running. There is no reason (other than personal) to restrict the list to topics as long as they do not include windows, PCs, DOS, or LINUX. It can be quite a challenge to get an old pc running as is ANY S100 based system. I have done both and I am quite willing to help anyone try and resolve issues on any machine I have experience with. If you see a mesage that you can help on, then great. If you don't, then file it away or delete it. I really don't recall seeing any messages on here that were inappropriate for a vintage forum. If someone outside finds the list and emails a question that is for something newer, then delete it or respond with COURTESY directing them someplace else. The discussion here over the topic has wasted substantialy more bandwidth then the few emails that come here that don't need to. best regards, Steve Thatcher From lists at popcorn.cx Wed Jun 16 07:30:39 2004 From: lists at popcorn.cx (Stephen Edmonds) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Two free SGI Personal Iris systems, Melbourne Australia Message-ID: <40D03D6F.2070706@popcorn.cx> Greetings, About a year ago, amongst a bunch of stuff from a university, I picked up three SGI Personal Iris systems. They didn't all have hard drives and I think one of the keyboards is dodgy so my plan was to sell one on ebay (which I did) and get a working system out of the last two. This has not happened and I don't forsee it happening in the near future, plus I need the space... I did take a few pictures (just after i got them) for my site and they can be found at http://popcorn.cx/computers/sgi/iris/ What there is: - Two SGI Personal Iris units, '4D/20 ENTRY' configuration (but I'm not sure if they are still that configuration) - Two 21" monitors (see pictures) - Two keyboards - One mouse (maybe two but definitely only one of the special red/blue mouse pads for the early optical mice) - At least one video cable per monitor - Various Irix administration and programming manuals (see the pictures for titles) The cost: Free. The catch: You have to pick it all up from Glen Waverley, Melbourne, Australia. Also since they came from a student computer lab where they booted off the network they will almost definitely need some degree of operating system reinstall. I'll give it a week or two but after that I'll try and find a computer recycling place that will take them, otherwise it is off to the tip (rubbish tip that is)... Stephen -- _ _ _ Stephen Edmonds _/ \_ / \_/ \ Melbourne, Australia <_ " _> / \ / O \ / " \ stephen@popcorn.cx / ___ \ | O | http://popcorn.cx/ \_____/ \___/ From cvisors at gmail.com Wed Jun 16 07:44:27 2004 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Two free SGI Personal Iris systems, Melbourne Australia In-Reply-To: <40D03D6F.2070706@popcorn.cx> References: <40D03D6F.2070706@popcorn.cx> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 22:30:39 +1000, Stephen Edmonds wrote: > > Greetings, > > About a year ago, amongst a bunch of stuff from a university, I picked > up three SGI Personal Iris systems. They didn't all have hard drives > and I think one of the keyboards is dodgy so my plan was to sell one on > ebay (which I did) and get a working system out of the last two. > > This has not happened and I don't forsee it happening in the near > future, plus I need the space... > > I did take a few pictures (just after i got them) for my site and they > can be found at http://popcorn.cx/computers/sgi/iris/ > > What there is: > > - Two SGI Personal Iris units, '4D/20 ENTRY' configuration > (but I'm not sure if they are still that configuration) > - Two 21" monitors (see pictures) > - Two keyboards > - One mouse (maybe two but definitely only one of the special > red/blue mouse pads for the early optical mice) > - At least one video cable per monitor > - Various Irix administration and programming manuals (see the > pictures for titles) > > The cost: > > Free. > > The catch: > > You have to pick it all up from Glen Waverley, Melbourne, Australia. > > Also since they came from a student computer lab where they booted off > the network they will almost definitely need some degree of operating > system reinstall. > > I'll give it a week or two but after that I'll try and find a computer > recycling place that will take them, otherwise it is off to the tip > (rubbish tip that is)... > > Stephen > Stephen, I would be very interested in these machines, as I am in the Brunswick area so not too far away you. I am somewhat of a collector of Silicon Graphics machinery and the IRIS is one machine I don't have. Benjamin. -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 16 08:01:16 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: AlphaServer ECU / AlphaServer for sell Message-ID: <20040616130116.GC11001@hoss.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I am looking for the EISA Config Utility (ECU) floppies for the folowing machines: AlspaServer 2100 5/250 AlspaServer 1000A 5/400 AlspaServer 1000A 4/266 AlphaStation 600 5/266 If someone wants to by the AlspaServer 1000A 5/400 drop me a note. It is located in Kaiserslautern / Germany. I can deliver to Karlsruhe (LinuxTag) next week. Also for sell: DEC HSD30 SCSI to DSSI RAID with two empty BA350 Storage works shelfes and PCI DSSI adapter. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From charlesb at otcgaming.net Wed Jun 16 08:06:38 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) References: <40D03D6F.2070706@popcorn.cx> Message-ID: <008201c453a3$78a91ca0$7dc3033e@thunder> is it me, or are we still getting double posts ?? anyways a couple of things I found on teh intarweb... http://www.cpoint.co.uk/vp/overview.html http://www.cpoint.co.uk/wvx/ I know they're not strictly on topic, but for those who have viewdata/prestel terminals and want to get them back into use it could be useful. Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 09:36:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: END OF RANT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For all of you who put up with my rant of yesterday, I thank you. To those who replied (publicly or privately) with comments on my rants, I think some very good points were made [although I may not agree with all of them] and I have responded to some [privately] I really value this forum, and agree with those who believe that there are plenty of OTHER forums for discussing PC/Windows and that this is NOT the place. On the other hand, (as preiously posted) if someone is looking to duplicate the original cassette interface, that would surely be a "classic" issue. [ps: I do have an operational DX4/100 VESA Local Bus machine with 20Meg operational if someone wants to buy it....]. My intended point was that posts which exist simply to say negative things about a topic which is not pertinant to the forum anyway [i.e. PC/Windows] serves no purpose. And in my personal case lowers my opinion of the poster [most of whom I hold in very high regard]. I think that is enough on the subject, and would be greatful if nobody replys [at least on the forum] to this post. Sincerely, David From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 09:46:50 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Trivia Challenge! References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk><1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain><10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain><6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net><10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040616002637.04f93c18@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: OK, I was staring at the album cover while listening to Kraftwerk's Computerworld, and, while mostly thinking of nothing (best way to solve programming problems) I started wondering what exactly they were standing in front of. Anyone know what machine this is? It's tricky as it's just the doors. Assume Germany c. 1980. http://home.t-online.de/home/520078056126-0002/3cwpost2.jpg From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 16 10:52:10 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: References: <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040616164711.05ef1bb8@pop.freeserve.net> At 00:25 16/06/2004, Tony Duell wrote: >Somewhere (and Bletchley are NOT GETTING IT), I have a Plessey modem (all >discrete components in the GPO case that's about 14" square and 6" high) >that doess 1200 baud transmit, 75 receive. Sounds like a viewdata host >unit to me... I used to have something one like this, but a 300 baud one. Hige case, drop down front panel with a GPO logo on it, individual cards mounted inside for each function. I used to sit my first BBS BBC micro on top of it! For the life of me I can't remember what happened to it.. This was about 1982, and it was my first modem. I later upgraded to a Maplin build-your-own modem kit, before getting one of the early Pace Nightingale modems, complete with prototype auto-answer board, so I could sell them my BBS software.. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 16 11:16:17 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator Message-ID: <200406161616.JAA10813@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steven It is an offshoot of fig Forth. I wrote the stuff under FPC by Tom Zimmer. It is mostly Forth-83. One could make it work under most any other but like most Forths of this era, the file access may be different. Of course, one can still get FPC from the web. Dwight >From: "Steven Canning" > >Dwight, > >Is it written in micro-FORTH or FIG FORTH ? > >Best regards, Steven > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >To: >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:00 PM >Subject: Re: Cool 4004 based calculator > > >> Hi >> I thought I'd mention that I've written a simulator >> for the 4004 in the environment of a SIM-4. One >> could adapt it to most any hardware environment. >> It is written in Forth so it can be quite flexible >> for someone that knows Forth. >> If anyone is interested, I can dig it up. With >> a little time to refamiliarize myself with the >> code, I can help connect up I/O. >> It runs under FPC on a DOS PC platform. There is >> a simple assembler and disassembler as well. >> For someone wanting to do a 4004 project, it can >> be quite useful at debugging code and hardware >> concepts. >> Dwight >> >> >> > > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 16 11:28:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: age limits for classic computers Message-ID: <200406161628.JAA10822@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >set an age limit only (make it 15 or 20 years). It is quite fair to have someone email in and say they are trying to get old hardware running. There is no reason (other than personal) to restrict the list to topics as long as they do not include windows, PCs, DOS, or LINUX. It can be quite a challenge to get an old pc running as is ANY S100 based system. I have done both and I am quite willing to help anyone try and resolve issues on any machine I have experience with. > Hi It is just that it would be a shame to turn this into a "Fix My PC" group. There was an active news group that that happened to. They changed the name of the group but it never recovered. All the people the new how to fix PC left and now just about all one sees are single letters asking for help in the old group. I think that rather than a 10 year limit, we might consider a specific date. For those that want to deal with newer machines, they can spawn a new side group. Similar to the tech group. I don't want to shut out the newer stuff but then, I also don't want to see this group loose its focus. Dwight From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 11:54:56 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <008201c453a3$78a91ca0$7dc3033e@thunder> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > is it me, or are we still getting double posts ?? I always get double, sometimes triple or quadruple sets of the same messages. They come in spurts. I have never been able to figure out why. Well, I've never really tried. I asked Jay about it and he says it's not on his side. I'm taking his word for it and assuming my e-mail server is screwed, which is a distinct possibility. I've been meaning to install a new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious to know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started doing this one day last year. This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 12:09:05 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same issue here. I *should* be just getting messages once as they are posted, however 2-3 times per day, I get a complete burst of multiple messages. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 12:55 PM >>> To: charlesb@otcgaming.net; General Discussion: On-Topic >>> and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) >>> >>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: >>> >>> > is it me, or are we still getting double posts ?? >>> >>> I always get double, sometimes triple or quadruple sets of >>> the same messages. They come in spurts. I have never been >>> able to figure out why. >>> Well, I've never really tried. I asked Jay about it and he >>> says it's not on his side. I'm taking his word for it and >>> assuming my e-mail server is screwed, which is a distinct >>> possibility. I've been meaning to install a new server but >>> have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new >>> server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd >>> be curious to know if other people are experiencing the >>> same thing. It started doing this one day last year. >>> >>> This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 16 12:03:29 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > is it me, or are we still getting double posts ?? > > I always get double, sometimes triple or quadruple sets of the same > messages. They come in spurts. I have never been able to figure out why. > Well, I've never really tried. I asked Jay about it and he says it's not > on his side. I'm taking his word for it and assuming my e-mail server is > screwed, which is a distinct possibility. I've been meaning to install a > new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new > server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious to > know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started doing > this one day last year. > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). No doubles here. The occasional spam message (which is weird because this address is only used for this list !) but other than that, no weirdness. --f From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Jun 16 12:13:01 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) Message-ID: <116.33fa9b8b.2e01d99d@aol.com> In a message dated 6/16/04 10:05:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, dvcorbin@optonline.net writes: Same issue here. I *should* be just getting messages once as they are posted, however 2-3 times per day, I get a complete burst of multiple messages Interesting, I don't see any of this behavior in the posts I receive on AOL. Did get some rare double echoes days later the other day but that is all I have seen. Paxton Astoria, OR (Where they are making The Ring II right now. Fun with moviemakers in town again!) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 16 12:15:54 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) Message-ID: <200406161715.KAA10878@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > >> is it me, or are we still getting double posts ?? > >I always get double, sometimes triple or quadruple sets of the same >messages. They come in spurts. I have never been able to figure out why. >Well, I've never really tried. I asked Jay about it and he says it's not >on his side. I'm taking his word for it and assuming my e-mail server is >screwed, which is a distinct possibility. I've been meaning to install a >new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new >server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious to >know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started doing >this one day last year. > >This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > Hi I suspect it is someone out there with a virus. I'd guess the virus thinks it is sending infected messages but isn't. This is just my guess. Dwight From melamy at earthlink.net Wed Jun 16 12:17:08 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: age limits for classic computers Message-ID: <5113845.1087406238469.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I would not want the group to lose focus either, but I consider my IBM XT just as useful as my H88, my Northstar Horizon, and my Intel MDS-225. I also was proposing a 15 to 20 year period rather than just ten. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Jun 16, 2004 12:28 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: age limits for classic computers >From: "Steve Thatcher" > >set an age limit only (make it 15 or 20 years). It is quite fair to have someone email in and say they are trying to get old hardware running. There is no reason (other than personal) to restrict the list to topics as long as they do not include windows, PCs, DOS, or LINUX. It can be quite a challenge to get an old pc running as is ANY S100 based system. I have done both and I am quite willing to help anyone try and resolve issues on any machine I have experience with. > Hi It is just that it would be a shame to turn this into a "Fix My PC" group. There was an active news group that that happened to. They changed the name of the group but it never recovered. All the people the new how to fix PC left and now just about all one sees are single letters asking for help in the old group. I think that rather than a 10 year limit, we might consider a specific date. For those that want to deal with newer machines, they can spawn a new side group. Similar to the tech group. I don't want to shut out the newer stuff but then, I also don't want to see this group loose its focus. Dwight From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Jun 16 12:26:47 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:32 2005 Subject: Trivia Challenge! In-Reply-To: References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk><1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain><10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain><6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net><10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040616002637.04f93c18@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: > OK, I was staring at the album cover while listening to Kraftwerk's > Computerworld, and, while mostly thinking of nothing (best way to solve > programming problems) I started wondering what exactly they were standing in > front of. Anyone know what machine this is? It's tricky as it's just the > doors. Assume Germany c. 1980. Not a computer at all - it's an Old Skool mixing console - the connectors are Tuchels which were the typical German and English multi-pair audio connector used then... here in Amerikka, though, we usuallyused Winchester/Edac units for this. The give-away in the picture is the molded acoustic foam treatment on the control room wall behind the Band. Cheers John > > http://home.t-online.de/home/520078056126-0002/3cwpost2.jpg > > From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 12:24:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 Message-ID: Here's a Tandy 2000 (kinda rarish) with a starting price of $9.99 and no bids with 1 day to go: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5101374189&ssPageName=MERC_VI -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Wed Jun 16 12:39:00 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: age limits for classic computers In-Reply-To: <5113845.1087406238469.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <5113845.1087406238469.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40D085B4.9090002@vzavenue.net> I really don't see the problem with the list as it exists today. If the occasional PC post's upsets you, subscribe to cctech only. I actually like the loose format of cctalk and don't have a problem with an occasional off topic discussion. Honestly, I filter out all of the posts on DECs and other big iron. I'm really only interested in Sun, Sgi, NeXT's, early Macs and and other micro's. I hang around here because I enjoy the people. So I guess that if it comes to a vote on changing the 10 year rule to 15 or 20 years, my vote is no. James http://www.vzavenue.net/~jrice54/classiccomp2.html From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Jun 16 12:46:53 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Trivia Challenge! In-Reply-To: References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk> <40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk><1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain><10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain><6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net><10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040616002637.04f93c18@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, John Lawson wrote: > > > The give-away in the picture is the molded acoustic foam treatment on > the control room wall behind the Band. Damn - should've checked the other pix out before I jumped to (educated) conclusions. This view: http://home.t-online.de/home/520078056126-0002/3cwpost.jpg shows it to be audio/music gear - the shot is too contrasty and fuzzy to make out what it is... The connectors *are* Tuchels, however, and I've worked on a lot of big studio boards that used dozens of 'em. Cheers Swami Audionanda From pzachary at sasquatch.com Wed Jun 16 10:22:34 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pavl) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <20040616074354.318B079005F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20040616074354.318B079005F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <04061608223400.00933@localhost.localdomain> You aught to be able to run any pdp-11 operating system except ATT V7 unix(no supported peripherals), BSD2.11(no I+D), and I don't think mumps will work. I'm pretty sure you can use at least a rd53. Pavl_ On Wednesday 16 June 2004 12:43 am, you wrote: > Hello list, > I've been recently offered a Pro350 unit, depending on whether I can get > past my budget and the wife. :-) > > Said unit has 256kB RAM and a 10MB disk, presumably a RD51. No operating > system. 4 SLU async card. VR201 monochrome monitor. F-11 CPU (LSI-11/23). > > Some questions I have: > 1. What OS can I run on this system? (Yes, I've heard the nightmares of the > Piece of S* O/S). I was thinking in lines of RT-11...if so possible, then > where can I get RT-11 for the Pro350? Is RSX-11 available for the Pro350? > > 2. Correct me if I'm wrong: Since it's the F-11 CPU, then it'll be limited > to 18-bit addressing, therefore maximum RAM supported is 256kB, right? > > 3. Can I "upgrade" the RD51 with a RD54? Perhaps that depends of the > bootROM and O/S support, right? > > Thanks. > /wai-sun From ernestls at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 12:37:54 2004 From: ernestls at comcast.net (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival > Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:25 AM > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Subject: Tandy 2000 > > > Here's a Tandy 2000 (kinda rarish) with a starting price of $9.99 and no > bids with 1 day to go: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5101374189&ssPageName =M > ERC_VI I think the Tandy 2000 is, in technical terms, a very cool computer. I had one for a while but I didn't have the keyboard for it so I couldn't use it. Does anyone have one of these heavy bastards in functional condition? I know of several partial 2000's but I don't know of anyone who has a complete setup. E. http://www.apple2clones.com From jbmcb at hotmail.com Wed Jun 16 13:15:50 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Trivia Challenge! References: <40CE0F75.7020702@brasholt.dk><40CE1B53.20500@brasholt.dk><1087250071.26297.214.camel@weka.localdomain><10406150253.ZM10024@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain><6.1.1.1.0.20040615170610.063bf250@pop.freeserve.net><10406151845.ZM10585@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com><6.1.1.1.0.20040616002637.04f93c18@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: Amazing call, Mr. Johnson. I always thought it was some mainframe door or something. Re: http://home.t-online.de/home/520078056126-0002/3cwpost.jpg I think that's a picture of a different setup than the one I posted earlier. If you look closely it seems the mixers they are operating are on pedestals. If this is a later version of KlingKlang (Their recording studio that they tour with; yep they -used to- take the whole studio with them) the consoles are on pedestals so you can see them better when they play in concerts. I've heard the latest concert has them playing laptops, like so many other techno/ambient musicians these days (I heard someone describe this practice as playing battleship on stage) Since they mostly stand still during the concert, half the fun was watching the Macs sequence all the analog gear behind them through blinkenlights-laden Doepfer equipment. Oh well... I think the idea of the Computer World picture is they are inside a computer, the big panels sure do look like power distribution panels for a mainframe or something. It very well could be the same gear, but my guess is it's just a shot from another studio somewhere. A few years ago I helped these guys out with some MIDI sequencing software for the only portable machine they could afford, a Mac SE/30, so they could go on tour. Now they use 17" G4 laptops, but their first few albums were composed on that SE/30. Good, old technology is *still* good technology :) http://www.ersatzaudio.com/disco/html/htmlforrightframe/13.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Lawson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 1:46 PM Subject: Re: Trivia Challenge! > > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, John Lawson wrote: > > > > > > > The give-away in the picture is the molded acoustic foam treatment on > > the control room wall behind the Band. > > > Damn - should've checked the other pix out before I jumped to (educated) > conclusions. This view: > > http://home.t-online.de/home/520078056126-0002/3cwpost.jpg > > shows it to be audio/music gear - the shot is too contrasty and fuzzy to > make out what it is... > > The connectors *are* Tuchels, however, and I've worked on a lot of big > studio boards that used dozens of 'em. > > > Cheers > > Swami Audionanda > > > From paul at frixxon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 13:16:08 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Multiple Posts and Change the Subject Line! [was: Re: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update)] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D08E68.1020501@frixxon.co.uk> David V. Corbin wrote: > Same issue here. I *should* be just getting messages once as they are > posted, however 2-3 times per day, I get a complete burst of multiple > messages. Are you sure you're not subscribed to cctalk and cctech? Moderation happens, on average, three times a day, and that produces a burst of messages. And a general plea to all: if the thread changes direction, please change the frigging Subject! Moderation takes a lot more time when threads shift from on to off-topic. The moderation load is 5500 posts per month, and you benefit from it, even when you subscribe to the "nominally unmoderated" cctalk. -- Paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 14:19:46 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Fair warning, the following message contains the ratings of a single > individual. > >>>> Sounds like somebody grabbed the old machines when a school downgraded > their computer facilities to PCs... > As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many Yes, there IS a strong anti "PeeCee" bias. But the above quote is NEUTRAL, and does NOT show it. Let me tell you about when a school downgraded their computer facilities to PCs... It was in 1983,... The community college taught DP, using a PDP11. I'm not sure of the specific model, because I came in later. They taught COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, PASCAL, and did RJE to some sort of modern 360 (4381?), which also did, and still does, all of the administrative computing. The DP department computer had a third party drive, and they had LOTS of problems. The DEC field service people would get it running, and often had to exceed the speed limit to get out of sight before it went down again. But the real clincher was one time that it went down, and stayed down for MOST of the semester. Try teaching compiled languages without a computer! The head of the DP department made a major decision. They replaced the computer with a few dozen PCs! He had seen the corners that I had cut to save money on my PC, so they bought the 5150s with FDC cards and CGA cards, and put in aftermarket RAM, floppy drives, and B&W composite monitors. They ran PC-DOS 2.0, and ran IBM (rebadged MICROS~1) FORTRAN, COBOL, PASCAL, and BASIC. Now, the worst possible single malfunction would reduce capacity 5%, rather than disabling the entire department. And they hired me to teach a Microcomputer Operating System class (which I had been teaching with TRS-DOS and Apple-DOS on another campus). When the FORTRAN teacher unexpectedly left, they handed me his classes, and I got one of the much coveted tenure-track full-time positions! But the story doesn't quite end there, although most of the rest of the story is from third party sources who will deny it. They sold the [working, but unreliable] PDP-11 to a local school district. (Richmond, now "West Contra Costa") It was very cheap, because they made no secret of the problems that it had had. The school district called in PG&E (the power company) to connect it. The PG&E "technician" didn't understand the difference between delta and Y three phase! The computer was seriously damaged. (PG&E did the same thing with the wiring for the compressor in my automobile garage 10 years previously) PG&E cut a deal - that if everyone would go along with a fiction that the computer had been struck by lightning, then PG&E would buy the school district a new one! So,... the DP department got a lab full of PCs, which solved the issue of reliability. The R.U.S.D. got a brand new computer for next to nothing. Some PG&E technicians got some retraining. Meanwhile, on the other end of the campus, the electronics department also had a PDP-11, but the electronics department was soon being closed down because the administration believed that "NOBODY ever repairs anything anymore". The administration dumpstered the computer! One of the teachers salvaged it from the dumpster(s) in violation of school rules and policies. But he was having major problems of his own (divorce, moving, lack of storage space, lack of money to rent space,...) so he stuck the stuff into his back yard, intending to do something with it "right away", ... and the computer stuff stayed in his back yard until what was left of it was rescued a few months ago. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com "Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach. Those that can't teach, administrate." == H.L. Mencken From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 16 14:31:58 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003b01c453d8$97df6d60$99100f14@mcothran1> And now we know the rest of the story... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:19 PM Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > Fair warning, the following message contains the ratings of a single > > individual. > > >>>> Sounds like somebody grabbed the old machines when a school downgraded > > their computer facilities to PCs... > > As shown by the above quote, there is a strong anti "PeeCee" bias by many > > Yes, there IS a strong anti "PeeCee" bias. > But the above quote is NEUTRAL, and does NOT show it. > > Let me tell you about when a school downgraded their computer > facilities to PCs... > > It was in 1983,... > The community college taught DP, using a PDP11. I'm not sure > of the specific model, because I came in later. > > They taught COBOL, FORTRAN, BASIC, PASCAL, and did RJE to some > sort of modern 360 (4381?), which also did, and still does, > all of the administrative computing. > > The DP department computer had a third party drive, > and they had LOTS of problems. > The DEC field service people would get it running, and often > had to exceed the speed limit to get out of sight before it > went down again. > > But the real clincher was one time that it went down, and stayed > down for MOST of the semester. Try teaching compiled languages > without a computer! > > The head of the DP department made a major decision. > They replaced the computer with a few dozen PCs! He had seen the > corners that I had cut to save money on my PC, so they bought the > 5150s with FDC cards and CGA cards, and put in aftermarket RAM, > floppy drives, and B&W composite monitors. > > They ran PC-DOS 2.0, and ran IBM (rebadged MICROS~1) FORTRAN, > COBOL, PASCAL, and BASIC. > Now, the worst possible single malfunction would reduce capacity > 5%, rather than disabling the entire department. > > > And they hired me to teach a Microcomputer Operating System class > (which I had been teaching with TRS-DOS and Apple-DOS on another > campus). When the FORTRAN teacher unexpectedly left, they handed > me his classes, and I got one of the much coveted tenure-track > full-time positions! > > > But the story doesn't quite end there, although most of the rest > of the story is from third party sources who will deny it. > They sold the [working, but unreliable] PDP-11 to a local school > district. (Richmond, now "West Contra Costa") > It was very cheap, because they made no secret of the problems > that it had had. > > The school district called in PG&E (the power company) to connect it. > The PG&E "technician" didn't understand the difference between > delta and Y three phase! The computer was seriously damaged. > (PG&E did the same thing with the wiring for the compressor in my > automobile garage 10 years previously) > > PG&E cut a deal - that if everyone would go along with a fiction > that the computer had been struck by lightning, then PG&E would > buy the school district a new one! > > So,... > the DP department got a lab full of PCs, which solved the issue > of reliability. > The R.U.S.D. got a brand new computer for next to nothing. > Some PG&E technicians got some retraining. > > > Meanwhile, on the other end of the campus, the electronics > department also had a PDP-11, but the electronics department > was soon being closed down because the administration believed > that "NOBODY ever repairs anything anymore". The administration > dumpstered the computer! One of the teachers salvaged it from > the dumpster(s) in violation of school rules and policies. But he > was having major problems of his own (divorce, moving, lack of storage > space, lack of money to rent space,...) so he stuck the stuff into his > back yard, intending to do something with it "right away", ... and the > computer stuff stayed in his back yard until what was left of it was > rescued a few months ago. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > "Those that can, do. > Those that can't, teach. > Those that can't teach, administrate." > == H.L. Mencken From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 14:33:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Trivia Challenge! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I tend to agree, although I looked through some old info I have and can not place the specific console. David Ps: I worked for Otari CPD for a number of years and was the developer of the software for their first 100% digital console [the Advanta]. It used up to 14 [can I mention it] PC computers running QNX [a realtime version of Unix] for worksurface control and up to 72 SHaRC digital signal processors for audio processing. It was quite a project. Although the "professionals" could (and did) make fine mixes with it, all I could create was "noise" >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Lawson >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 1:27 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Trivia Challenge! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Jason McBrien wrote: >>> >>> > OK, I was staring at the album cover while listening to >>> Kraftwerk's >>> > Computerworld, and, while mostly thinking of nothing (best way to >>> > solve programming problems) I started wondering what >>> exactly they were >>> > standing in front of. Anyone know what machine this is? >>> It's tricky as >>> > it's just the doors. Assume Germany c. 1980. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not a computer at all - it's an Old Skool mixing console >>> - the connectors are Tuchels which were the typical German >>> and English multi-pair audio connector used then... here >>> in Amerikka, though, we usuallyused Winchester/Edac units for this. >>> >>> The give-away in the picture is the molded acoustic foam >>> treatment on the control room wall behind the Band. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > >>> > http://home.t-online.de/home/520078056126-0002/3cwpost2.jpg >>> > >>> > From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Jun 16 14:36:28 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: 1979 microproc cookbook on eBay Message-ID: A book with a good number of early microprocessors in it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=378&item=6905523806&rd=1 4 days left, no bids, $9.99 Cheers John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 14:48:46 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> >>>Let me tell you about when a school downgraded their computer facilities to PCs... >>>It was in 1983,... >>>The community college taught DP, using a PDP11. I'm not sure of the specific model, because I came in later. >>> A truly horrid tale [though it is good to learn how the stuff arrived in that backyard!]. I too saw many items being "dumpstered" over the years, including a perfectly working VAX 750 [with 3 racks of tape and disk drives] because "it was no longer needed and would be too hard to try to sell". I have also seen a good number of "Y" vs. "Delta" screwups [although none that ever directly effected computer equipment]. The worst was in the late 1970's when a company was being moved to a new part of the power grid [the area was rapdily developing and expanding]. "Someone" did not realize that about half the building was wired in a "non-standard" fashion. "Fortunately" the wiring acted pretty much as fuses and aside from a small fire, the damage was minimal. From bert at brothom.nl Wed Jun 16 15:44:01 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) References: Message-ID: <40D0B111.1828BA5E@brothom.nl> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new > server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious to > know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started doing > this one day last year. > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find out why. Bert From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 16 15:22:56 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC Message-ID: <10406162122.ZM11973@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> I've put off asking about this in view of the discussion about what's on/off topic, but I need some help from Those Who Know These Things. My specific requirement is to put together a PC to run 22DISK, my DOS-only PAL/PROM programmer software, and the like. It will run DOS 6.22 in a FAT16 partition (and probably WinXP in another partition because I will not permit more than one PC in my workshop, but that part is definitely off topic so I mention it no further). I want it to be able to support single-density floppies, and eventually 8" drives too. Available "ingredients" are an Intel SE440BX motherboard (if it matters) with a P2 400 and stupid Intel/Phoenix BIOS, a Teac FD-55GFR 5.25" floppy drive, choice of any number of 3.5" floppy drives, the usual other bits that go to make a PC, and a few harddisk/floppy controllers, including a Western Digital WD1006V-MM2 F002, and a Western Digital WDAT-240. I have a couple of older no-name ISA floppy cards but I suspect they won't support HD floppies (though I wonder if they'd support 8" DD? Same speed...) and I probably have other 5.25" drives somewhere. I picked those controllers, by the way, because they have 37C65 FDCs and the magic second (9.6MHz) crystals and are reputed to do SD correctly. A problem is the braindamaged BIOS/mobo, which only handles one floppy. Yes, really; not content with bastardising the interface to enable cables-with-a-twist, they've removed all drive selects but one. No pins, no PCB tracks, or in the words of the manual, "no connection". However, if I disable the onboard FDC in the BIOS, I can persuade the machine to see the FDC on a WD1006V-MM2. Only it won't boot; it gets so far and then hangs. It almost looks as if disabling the FDC in the BIOS actually disables support for an FDC at the primary address, and MS-DOS can't complete the boot. Do I need to do something with CONFIG.SYS? Maybe it would be better to leave the onboard FDC alone, and use the WD controller as a secondary? I guess I do need DRIVER.SYS for that, yes? I have a similar problem with the HD controller. I want to use two IDE channels, but I can't disable the HDC on a WD card; I can only change the address between primary and secondary - and I can't even do that on the WDAT-240, unless someone here knows something I don't. But I can't get the PC to work properly with the IDE controller on the WDAT-240; if I leave the onboard controller enabled, they fight, and if I disable the onboard controller in the BIOS, it seems to stop the WD controller working properly. Any suggestions? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 15:57:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: <10406162122.ZM11973@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: >>> A problem is the braindamaged BIOS/mobo, which only handles >>> one floppy. Pete, altering the number of FDC/HDC from what the BIOS expects is typically a significant problem as this is where all of the hardware access is routed through. I have faced similar issues when attempting to use a PC motherboard as the basis of a non-PC computer [embedded system type stuff]. Please feel free to contact me off list if you want to discuss this further. I do not think there are any "simple" answers [although someone else may have an idea, which is why I am publicly responding]. David david@dynamicconcepts.us From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 16:15:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040615123424.03a670e0@mail.30below.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040615123424.03a670e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040616140605.G14348@newshell.lmi.net> > >Bill Gates had the opportunity to develop an operating system [MS-DOS] On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Erm, it's well known he *bought* that. He did *not* develop it. definition of "develop"? After MICROS~1 bought QDOS, there was a LOT of work that needed to be done on it. I don't think that billg was an active participant in any of the work on MS-DOS. What percentage of what should have been done did they do? > The last > thing BG worked on himself was the OS for the Tandy Model 'T' (Kyocera > OEMmed) series of laptops. And that was back when Micro$haft still knew how > to make decent software, instead of buy crap & selling it to IBM. Are you implying that the 1983? RS model 100 (and NEC 8201, etc) came BEFORE the 8/11/1981 5150? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 16:26:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406160003.56299.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200406160003.56299.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <20040616142341.B14348@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Mike Kenzie wrote: > Let's not forget BOB There is a later version of BOB that runs on Windoze95! But BOB is such a CLASSIC example of offensive user interface design, that it (and Clippy) will remain topics of conversation for many decades. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 16:29:26 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040616001056.04b44a10@mail.30below.com> References: <001101c4533f$f6479d30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <5.1.0.14.2.20040616001056.04b44a10@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <20040616142632.E14348@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Personally, I don't have a problem with discussion re: > > Win <= 3.0, > Linux (kernel) <= 1.0.x > [PC|MS]DOS <= 5.x Current guidelines permit Windoze <= 3.11 , but exclude Windoze95 Current guidelines permit DOS <= 6.x , but exclude Windoze95 > [[ As an aside -- the list *itself* is "gettin' up there..." over 7 years > old now, so the original guideline of "> 10 years old" will become on topic to discuss in another three years. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Jun 16 16:44:11 2004 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040616164711.05ef1bb8@pop.freeserve.net> References: <1087291882.27169.11.camel@weka.localdomain> <6.1.1.1.0.20040616164711.05ef1bb8@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <40D0BF2B.7040804@gifford.co.uk> Rob O'Donnell wrote: > I used to have something one like this, but a 300 baud one. Hige case, > drop down front panel with a GPO logo on it, individual cards mounted > inside for each function. Sounds like the GPO "Modem 2B". 300 baud, all discrete transistor, in a huge metal box with cream-painted front panels. I have one here, up in the loft -- must get it down for some photos. -- John Honniball coredump@gifford.co.uk From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 16 17:08:12 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <40D0B111.1828BA5E@brothom.nl> References: <40D0B111.1828BA5E@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <200406161708.12817.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 16 June 2004 15:44, Bert Thomas wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > > > new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new > > server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious > > to know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started > > doing this one day last year. > > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find > out why. Are you subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? You shouldn't be. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jun 16 17:19:02 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <20040616140605.G14348@newshell.lmi.net> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20040615123424.03a670e0@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040615123424.03a670e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040616181108.03c27008@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words: > > The last > > thing BG worked on himself was the OS for the Tandy Model 'T' (Kyocera > > OEMmed) series of laptops. And that was back when Micro$haft still knew how > > to make decent software, instead of buy crap & selling it to IBM. > >Are you implying that the 1983? RS model 100 (and NEC 8201, etc) came >BEFORE the 8/11/1981 5150? The bad drugs made me forget the operative word: "instead of *only* buying crap..." Of course, I'm sure the bad drugs are making me forget to say something else... if I did, I'll say now that I'm sorry for what I forgot to say, if I forget later to say that I'm sorry about not saying something because I forgot it. I'll *never* forget one thing, tho: Vioxx sucks.[1] Laterz, Who am I again? I forgot. [1] And no, I don't even have arthritis... -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 16 17:32:15 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Ernest wrote: > I think the Tandy 2000 is, in technical terms, a very cool computer. I > had one for a while but I didn't have the keyboard for it so I couldn't > use it. > > Does anyone have one of these heavy bastards in functional condition? I > know of several partial 2000's but I don't know of anyone who has a > complete setup. I used to have several of these (both color and mono ones, and both with and without the hard disk option) and yes, they were WAY cool, and much faster than XT's. I used them in my Minix days; one of the first things I did was port Minix to them :) I can still get some, I believe.. --f From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jun 16 18:24:28 2004 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1087428267.6002.37.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 12:19, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Meanwhile, on the other end of the campus, the electronics > department also had a PDP-11, but the electronics department > was soon being closed down because the administration believed > that "NOBODY ever repairs anything anymore". The administration > dumpstered the computer! One of the teachers salvaged it from > the dumpster(s) in violation of school rules and policies. But he > was having major problems of his own (divorce, moving, lack of storage > space, lack of money to rent space,...) so he stuck the stuff into his > back yard, intending to do something with it "right away", ... and the > computer stuff stayed in his back yard until what was left of it was > rescued a few months ago. Was it really a few months ago? :-) My how time flies! But it's good to know where it all came from and a bit of history behind it. Thanks. -- TTFN - Guy From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 17:19:20 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040616001056.04b44a10@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 16, 4 00:25:41 am Message-ID: > [[ As an aside -- the list *itself* is "gettin' up there..." over 7 years > old now, if memory serves. How many of us "original dudez" are left... say, > within the first 20 or 30 subscribers... A show of hands, maybe? ;-) > Sellam, I see your hand is raised, mine's up as well... ]] Dunno how early I am, but I'm early enough that I had to submit a justification-for-joining. I've been on the list ever since -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 17:28:34 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002d01c45361$70b8aa20$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 16, 4 00:19:03 am Message-ID: > > > Thank Gawd for that. > Unix *IS* user-friendly, it's just picky about who it calls a friend ;) :-) > > I'm thinking of several ways to avoid this becoming a windows support area. > I'm not hip on windows being a valid topic here, or commodity clone PC's for > a lot of reasons. Key of which is that in my opinion, that system is > responsible for the decline of the true art of computer science (but albeit > the rise of giant computer industry). The systems, and in general a lot of > the software after that are so cookie-cutter as to not have any soul. While > faster, cheaper, etc... there are no really new ideas in them. Just > reapplication of age old concepts. It's the period when these age old > concepts were discovered, put forth, and formed that we really seek to > preserve. Agreed. I am primarily a hardware person, but I guess much of the below applies to classic software too but I am not qualified to comment on that. I am somewhat unusual (I won't say unique because I know there's at least one other person here who does this) in that I pull classic computers apart (non-destructively !). Really apart, and then investigate what I can see. If there are no schematics, well I produce a set 99% of the time. And much of the time, when I'm working on a classic, I discover something which I consider beautiful, or at least interesting for the time. Some optimisation, either to increase performance with the technology then available (e.g. in the PDP11/45), or to reduce component count (e.g. the fact that the HP9810 uses half as many RAM chips as you might expect) or.... I _don't_ get this feeling when I look inside a PC. Any PC. > > One can make a good case for the initial home PC market - c64, apple, exidy, > atari, trs80, etc... as being historically significant. One simply can't Please don't forget Acorn (and I suppose I'd better mention Sinclair and Amstrad, although their machines are not in the same class as Acorn...) > make that argument for later generic clone PC's. > > In my mind, most of us here wish to preserve the ART of computer science, One of the oldest computer preservation groups in the world (18 years old now), although founded by a hardware hacker, has the aim of 'preserving old computers, software and operating practices as far as possible'. Yes, there's a lot more that needs to be preserved other than boards of chips (or trasnsistors, or valves, or...) > not necessarily machines of a specific age - thus I think an age limit isn't > really a great way to do this. Also, I think IBM 5150's are on topic for > example. It's a nebulous thing to pin down. Easy to understand but hard to > express. > > I don't think any of us started collecting with the first idea being "I'm > going to collect systems that are 10 years old". We aimed for specific Actually I started because I realised that unless _somebody_ started preserving these old machines then 30 years of history was going to get lost. And rather than simply say that, I started grabbing all I could find. Particularly minicomputers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 17:32:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 15, 4 10:44:20 pm Message-ID: > about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa Local Bus > motherboards or interface cards around anymore? There is another issue here. Many of the machines that we currently consider to be classices -- The 8 bit micros, PDP11s, PPD8s, HP9100s, etc -- are repairable. Scheamtics exist, they were built from mostly standard parts that are still easy to get. If I need a chip for the I/O interface card in my HP9830 then most likely I can still get one. This, alas, doesn't apply to commodity PCs. Custom chips abound, schematics don't exist (and probably wouldn't be a lot of use if the did). I suspect that such machines will never really be repairable. A few years ago I gave a talk to HPCC on the internals of the HP9100. This was shortly after the HP49G had been announced. And I ended my talk by saying 'In 30 years time the HP49G will probably be unrepairable, but people will still be able to fix their 9100s using the information I've given here'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 17:40:15 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: IBM cassette tapes. In-Reply-To: <6A15E72BE8E3D44494D6BDAF3C388E0E0368CC8C@rijpat-s-346.europe.shell.com> from "Stegeman, Henk HJ SITI-ITADEI" at Jun 16, 4 09:26:39 am Message-ID: > > Hi,=20 > > Does anyone have technical information of the IBM cassette tapes > used to load diagnostic programs in systems like the IBM System/7,=20 > IBM System/3 and the original IBM PC 5150 ? I certainly have that information for the 5150, it's in the Techref (I have a shelf of said manuals, I may not _like_ PCs, but at least I am going to have the information on them :-)). A 0 bit consists of 1 cycle taking a total of 500us (that's 2kHz I think). A 1 is 1 cycle taking 1000us (1kHz). The data record consists of : Leader (256 bytes of all 1's) Sync bit (a single 0 bit) Sync byte (Hex 16) Data block (256 bytes) CRC (2 bytes) Data block (256 bytes) CRC (2 bytes) etc... The CRC polynomial is the usual one X^16+X^12+X^5+1 I don't feel like typing in the relevant bits of BIOS source code, though :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 18:00:17 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040616164711.05ef1bb8@pop.freeserve.net> from "Rob O'Donnell" at Jun 16, 4 04:52:10 pm Message-ID: > > At 00:25 16/06/2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >Somewhere (and Bletchley are NOT GETTING IT), I have a Plessey modem (all > >discrete components in the GPO case that's about 14" square and 6" high) > >that doess 1200 baud transmit, 75 receive. Sounds like a viewdata host > >unit to me... > > I used to have something one like this, but a 300 baud one. Hige case, That's a Modem 2B. I have a pair of those too. Years ago I designed a dialer (pulsing DTR) and autoanswer add-on for it. The 300 baud ones do CCITT originate and answere tones, BTW. > drop down front panel with a GPO logo on it, individual cards mounted > inside for each function. I used to sit my first BBS BBC micro on top of it! One of mine has a GPO logo, the other a BT nameplate :-). Identical inside. These modems (both the 300 buad and the 1200/75 baud ones) have 4 modules inside. Power supply, Modulator, Demodulator, Control. All discrete transistors, relays, pot-core coils, etc. Somewhere I have a Modem 13A. This is a plinth that mounts under a standard type 746 telephone (which has a couple of swtiches added for voice and data) which contians a 300 baud modem. > > For the life of me I can't remember what happened to it.. This was about > 1982, and it was my first modem. I later upgraded to a Maplin > build-your-own modem kit, before getting one of the early Pace Nightingale I think I still have some bare, never soldered, PCBs for the Maplin modem... -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Wed Jun 16 18:32:58 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <3.0.6.32.20040615214948.009adad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <40D0D8AA.5080705@tiac.net> Joe R. wrote: > > > Well Said! Too many members of this list simply collect old computers >and don't bother with the related docs, manuals or application programs. I >have an old original 64k IBM PC and it's been very intersting collecting >original software and peripherals for it. Things like DOS 1.0, CPM-86, uSCD >Pascal, Professional Fortran, PolyForth, IBM GPIB software, early versions >of MS Word and MultiPlan, EasyWriter (written by none other than Capt'n >Crunch!), etc etc. And that's just the software, it doesn't include all the >various Tech Refs and all the fasinating 3rd party cards and peripherals. >I don't like the current over-bloated version-of-the-day MicroSoft products >either but it doesn't mean that the early PCs are uninteresting and not >worth collecting. > > Joe > Careful Joe! Some members bother to write O/S's and programming languages for vintage machines, and even build boot device emulators and ship them to other list members who have collections of machines they are doing anything with. And the other list members don't even boot the their machines, and post to the list about people who don't use their old machines. (insert stuipid smiley face icon here, using a number 2 pencil and your ASR-33 system console.) By the way, I need to send you a new EPROM, the build you have has a ~nasty~ bug thats been fixed with the latest build (which now has limited 7900 and IDE disk support). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 16 18:06:02 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 16, 4 12:19:46 pm Message-ID: > So,... > the DP department got a lab full of PCs, which solved the issue > of reliability. > The R.U.S.D. got a brand new computer for next to nothing. I don't dispute you _can_ teach real computing using PCs, although IMHO Acorn machines (which were designed for eduactional uses) are IMHO more suitable (and of course a room of Beebs or Archs is just as reliable as a room of PCs, I wasn't talking about having a multi-user mini). However, I can assure you this is not what happens in the UK. Beebs were used to teach computing (as in programming, interfacing (remember the Beeb had a built in ADC and user port), etc). PCs are not. And FWIW, according to the current UK educational standards I don't know how to use a computer (!)... -tony From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 16 18:50:33 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: "David V. Corbin" "RE: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT..." (Jun 16, 15:48) References: Message-ID: <10406170050.ZM12220@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 16, 15:48, David V. Corbin wrote: > I have also seen a good number of "Y" vs. "Delta" screwups [although none > that ever directly effected computer equipment]. The worst was in the late > 1970's when a company was being moved to a new part of the power grid [the > area was rapdily developing and expanding]. "Someone" did not realize that > about half the building was wired in a "non-standard" fashion. "Fortunately" > the wiring acted pretty much as fuses and aside from a small fire, the > damage was minimal. I can't think of a specific incident like that, but I do know that our University uses a non-standard order of phases, and that all the electrical contractors who come on site get a lecture about it, for obvious reasons! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 16 19:19:53 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)" (Jun 16, 23:19) References: Message-ID: <10406170119.ZM12249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 16, 23:19, Tony Duell wrote: > > [[ As an aside -- the list *itself* is "gettin' up there..." over 7 years > > old now, if memory serves. How many of us "original dudez" are left... say, > > within the first 20 or 30 subscribers... A show of hands, maybe? ;-) > > Sellam, I see your hand is raised, mine's up as well... ]] > > Dunno how early I am, but I'm early enough that I had to submit a > justification-for-joining. I've been on the list ever since I did that too, and I think I joined after Tony. According to my SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP confirmation email (you all kept yours, didn't you?) from Bill, I joined on Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:00:15 PST. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 19:23:10 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <40D0B111.1828BA5E@brothom.nl> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Bert Thomas wrote: > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > > > new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new > > server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious to > > know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started doing > > this one day last year. > > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find > out why. If one more person pipes up in agreement then I'll consider this a trend and declare, "Aha!" -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 19:28:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <200406161708.12817.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 16 June 2004 15:44, Bert Thomas wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > > > > > new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new > > > server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious > > > to know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started > > > doing this one day last year. > > > > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find > > out why. > > Are you subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? You shouldn't be. That would be a good guess as to what's going on (maybe it is for some people) but I regularly get 2, 3, even 4 copies of the same group of messages. Just today, I've received several threads at least 3 times so far. Not fun... -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 16 19:30:57 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: "David V. Corbin" "RE: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC" (Jun 16, 16:57) References: Message-ID: <10406170130.ZM12255@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 16, 16:57, David V. Corbin wrote: > > >>> A problem is the braindamaged BIOS/mobo, which only handles > >>> one floppy. > > Pete, altering the number of FDC/HDC from what the BIOS expects is typically > a significant problem as this is where all of the hardware access is routed > through. Depends on the OS, but I believe DOS does so, for floppies at least, unless you use a third party driver. However, I thought one of the points of disabling an onboard device was to allow you to use one on an additional card (other reasons exist, eg preventing startup errors if you have removed floppies for security). I think I've solved the problem, insofar as I've found a combination of settings that works. I decided to make a list of the all possible permutations of relevant links on the ISA controllers and enable/disable/auto settings in the BIOS, work methodically through them, and write down the results. Mainly because I couldn't remember exactly what perms produced which problems last night! One combination of disabling the onboard controller, using a particular card (WDAT-240), having both floppies on that card, worked. Odd, because it was an obvious one that I was sure I'd tried before; perhaps I did one BIOS reset too few or something. I've not tested single density yet. And I'm not sure about reading/formatting/writing DD disks in the HD 5.25" drive. But it's well after 1am here, and I've run out of time again... > Please feel free to contact me off list if you want to discuss this further. > I do not think there are any "simple" answers [although someone else may > have an idea, which is why I am publicly responding]. Any other suggestions are welcome :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 19:32:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > [[ As an aside -- the list *itself* is "gettin' up there..." over 7 years > > old now, if memory serves. How many of us "original dudez" are left... say, > > within the first 20 or 30 subscribers... A show of hands, maybe? ;-) > > Sellam, I see your hand is raised, mine's up as well... ]] > > Dunno how early I am, but I'm early enough that I had to submit a > justification-for-joining. I've been on the list ever since It used to be a rather exclusive club. Now they just let anyone on :) I remember how psyched I was to discover that there were other people in the world besides me who had an unjustifiably compelling urge to hold on to their old computers. The list is actually what brought forth the VCF. those of you who've been around since May of 1997 will remember that I first proposed the VCF (originally to be called the CCC: Classic Computer Convention) circa that time. It's amazing that it's been 7 years. I can't believe how much time and money I've wasted on this "hobby" ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 19:41:19 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware Message-ID: I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being developed today. For example: - IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, - IDE HD interfaces for minis like Bob Shannon's for the HP1000, etc. - Vince's M452X and W076X PDP-8 replacement boards - Vince Briel's Replica-1 - Catweasel (I count this as "neo-retro" because it's useful to us) - Bob Armstrong's SBC6120 - etc. So basically, I'd like to know about any new hardware (and I guess software) being developed and/or sold for vintage computers. I'm going to compile a directory for this stuff and I also have other plans that may or may not come to fruition. I imagine you can post them to the list since it might be useful for other folks to know about these projects, but please copy me directly . Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jun 16 19:48:12 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: IBM System/23 Datamaster ?? Message-ID: <20040617004812.90557.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> I recently acquired an IBM System/23 Datamaster (model 5322) computer, but I don't know anything about it. A little help here? Steve. http://www.oldcomputers.net/pics/IBM5322.jpg __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 19:45:49 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <10406170119.ZM12249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I did that too, and I think I joined after Tony. According to my > SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP confirmation email (you all kept yours, didn't > you?) from Bill, I joined on Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:00:15 PST. That (Feb 1998) would've been almost exactly a year after the list's inception (~Feb 1997). Was the list still by invitation only at that point? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jrice54 at vzavenue.net Wed Jun 16 20:00:17 2004 From: jrice54 at vzavenue.net (James Rice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D0ED21.1050606@vzavenue.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> >>Dunno how early I am, but I'm early enough that I had to submit a >>justification-for-joining. I've been on the list ever since >> >> I don't remember if I had to apply or not. I still have all email back to 1994 archived, so I could look and see when I joined. I still remember my first series of posts. I was given a Vax 11/780, all tapes, all docs (a whole wall of them), software, a bunch of terminal concentrators, 10-12 DEC laser printers, several wide fast dot matrix printers, a couple of really big report printers, 35-40 terminals and a couple of DEC PC's used as terminals. I wasn't into big stuff then or now so I turned to the list to try and find it a home. It turned out there were serveral Vax deskside servers in the same lot. A list member from San Francisco offered to come get it but after making arrangements, I never heard from him again. There were no other takers, so it was dumpstered and scrapped. Not scrapped as in break off the gold fingers, but mixed with scrap steel and really scrapped. The same fate awaited the PDP-8 and the two PDP-11's from the same factory. I just remember this was my introduction to the list. It has been fun. James http://www.vzavenue.net/~jrice54/classiccomp2.html From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Jun 16 20:12:42 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406162350.i5GNnVhk009460@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <40D08D9A.32140.1F97CEE1@localhost> > Roger Merchberger wrote... > The bad drugs made me forget the operative word > ... > I'll *never* forget one thing, tho: Vioxx sucks.[1] Oooh, send it to me then! Vitamin V makes snowboarding a whole lot more survivable when one is in one's 40's. Seriously, though -- it's just an antiinflammatory, shouldn't have any psychological consequences. Are you getting weird side effects? Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 16 20:24:52 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well, I have been around for ages - I think I almost remember getting a prod from Merle at RICM to join a "cool new list" - 199mumble. > It's amazing that it's been 7 years. I can't believe how much time and > money I've wasted on this "hobby" ;) Don't forget wear and tear on the car, house, marriage, cat, job, bones, etc.. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 20:26:58 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I did that too, and I think I joined after Tony. According to my > > SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP confirmation email (you all kept yours, didn't > > you?) from Bill, I joined on Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:00:15 PST. > > That (Feb 1998) would've been almost exactly a year after the list's > inception (~Feb 1997). Was the list still by invitation only at that > point? Hmmm... I think I joined in Feb 98 too. I seem to remember that Frank Mcconnell vouched for me. The earliest message I can find in my archive is March though: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Doug Yowza [yowza@yowza.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 12:51 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: Apple 1 at Fry's! For those in Silicon Valley who haven't been to the new Fry's in Sunnyvale: go check out CHAC's Apple 1 on display. Unlike the gaudy Mayan and Aztec themes of some other recent Fry's, this one has sort of an art deco theme with large posters of HP35s, Xerox Altos, and other machines worthy of worship. -- Doug --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From brian at quarterbyte.com Wed Jun 16 20:28:20 2004 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: <40D09144.17876.1FA61D1D@localhost> > The bad drugs made me forget the operative word > ... > I'll *never* forget one thing, tho: Vioxx sucks.[1] Oooh, send it to me then! Vitamin V makes snowboarding a whole lot more survivable in your 40's. Seriously, though -- it's just an antiinflammatory, shouldn't have any psychological consequences. Are you getting weird side effects? Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel _| _| _| Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 _| _| _| Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 20:36:13 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:33 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I did that too, and I think I joined after Tony. According to my > > SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP confirmation email (you all kept yours, didn't > > you?) from Bill, I joined on Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:00:15 PST. > > That (Feb 1998) would've been almost exactly a year after the list's > inception (~Feb 1997). Was the list still by invitation only at that > point? Ah! I joined 3/3/98. Here is the bit from the subscribe reply: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ How do I subscribe? Subscribing to this list is slightly more challenging than most. Read the instructions below. 1. Send a message to listproc@u.washington.edu with the line subscribe CLASSICCMP your-address in the body of the message. 2. Send a message to bill@booster.u.washington.edu introducing yourself and explaining why you wish to be added to the list. That's it. I require the letter of introduction for several reasons. 1 - Only people who really want to be on the list will bother. 2 - If you can't follow directions I won't hear from you. 3 - It helps me get an idea of who's on the list and what they hope to get out of it. 4 - I like to respond personally to new members rather than run a robot list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 20:42:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > It's amazing that it's been 7 years. I can't believe how much time and > > money I've wasted on this "hobby" ;) > > Don't forget wear and tear on the car, house, marriage, cat, job, bones, > etc.. I can say that during the time I've been actively collecting I have lost--with the exception of the house--one of each of those, though not all as a consequence of the collecting. I can't really say I've lost any bones. Surprisingly, throughout I've never had any serious or even semi-serious injuries. Just your basic cuts, scratches and bruises. Some losses were a blessing in disguise (guess which one? :) Some were bitter-sweet. I most recently "lost" my psycho cat. She bit the neighbor's baby. We had to quarantine her in the garage for 10 days. On around the 9.5th day she managed to escape (don't worry, she was clean) and (I assume) she decided she would rather take her chances elsewhere than be cooped up in the garage anymore. Silly cat. I couldn't keep her out before. This has nothing really to do with the collecting, but she did use to sneak into the garage and sleep on top of boxes of old computer documents and stuff and make a big cat-hair mess, which pissed me off to no end. Anyway, she was a pain in the ass, though I loved the little bitch. She was around 10 years old but looked and behaved like she was 2. On the bright side, now I can get a kitten again :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 20:44:28 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hmmm... I think I joined in Feb 98 too. I seem to remember that Frank > Mcconnell vouched for me. The earliest message I can find in my archive > is March though: > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > From: Doug Yowza [yowza@yowza.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 12:51 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Apple 1 at Fry's! > > For those in Silicon Valley who haven't been to the new Fry's in > Sunnyvale: go check out CHAC's Apple 1 on display. Unlike the gaudy Mayan > and Aztec themes of some other recent Fry's, this one has sort of an art > deco theme with large posters of HP35s, Xerox Altos, and other machines > worthy of worship. > > -- Doug > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- That Apple-1 is still there, though I can't say I noticed the posters the last time I visited there (a week or so ago). Doug is still around (I think he may even still be lurking) but the collecting bug has been mostly squashed for him. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 20:58:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> I can say that during the time I've been actively >>> collecting I have lost--with the exception of the >>> house--one of each of those, though not all as a >>> consequence of the collecting. Sometimes I wish I could "lose" an ex-wife (or two) [but not my present wife]. Alas, I know all too well where they are, and they know where I am.... [while the above is true, we actually all have good relationships, for which I am grateful since there are kids (now mainly grown) involved] Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because it was "junk"...... The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 16 21:00:03 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> References: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> Message-ID: <20040617020003.GA28971@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 10:37:54AM -0700, Ernest wrote: > Does anyone have one of these heavy bastards in functional condition? I > know of several partial 2000's but I don't know of anyone who has a > complete setup. How do you define "complete"? I have one that worked before it went in the box and on the shelf, but I probably don't have every peripheral ever made for it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -49.5 F (-45.3 C) Windchill -80.59 F (-62.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11 kts Grid 011 Barometer 684.7 mb (10448. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 16 21:06:42 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) Message-ID: <0406170206.AA16089@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David V. Corbin wrote: > Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because it was "junk"...... > The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. Now that one deserves execution! I would not settle for anything less than the death penalty for her. MS From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 16 21:08:58 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: Message-ID: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:42 PM Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > It's amazing that it's been 7 years. I can't believe how much time and > > > money I've wasted on this "hobby" ;) > > > > Don't forget wear and tear on the car, house, marriage, cat, job, bones, > > etc.. > > I can say that during the time I've been actively collecting I have > lost--with the exception of the house--one of each of those, though > not all as a consequence of the collecting. I can't really say I've lost > any bones. Surprisingly, throughout I've never had any serious or even > semi-serious injuries. Just your basic cuts, scratches and bruises. > > Some losses were a blessing in disguise (guess which one? :) Some were > bitter-sweet. I most recently "lost" my psycho cat. She bit the > neighbor's baby. We had to quarantine her in the garage for 10 days. On > around the 9.5th day she managed to escape (don't worry, she was clean) > and (I assume) she decided she would rather take her chances elsewhere > than be cooped up in the garage anymore. Silly cat. I couldn't keep her > out before. This has nothing really to do with the collecting, but she > did use to sneak into the garage and sleep on top of boxes of old computer > documents and stuff and make a big cat-hair mess, which pissed me off to > no end. > > Anyway, she was a pain in the ass, though I loved the little bitch. She > was around 10 years old but looked and behaved like she was 2. On the > bright side, now I can get a kitten again :) > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Well if you guys started collecting back in 97-98 you probably got quite a few expensive computers for next to nothing, which is allot harder to do today when there are more people in the hobby. I didn't start until 3 or so years ago, but I don't go for the rarities anyway. As far as the cat thing goes my parents (who I live with) adopted a stray cat that was pregnant a couple of years ago and liked the kittens so much she kept them. While I love those cats also there was a day I could have killed them when I discovered 3 sets of KVM cables and a few 9v wall mounted power supplies all chewed up. Good thing they get over the chewing phase. P.S. Anybody here get into the Computer Chronicles TV show from the 80's and 90's? There is an ftp site that has tons of episodes in mpeg format (1gb per 30 mins or so). I grabbed a few so far and they bring back the memories I had of watching the PBS show in the 80's. From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 21:02:46 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because it was "junk"...... > The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. That would certainly be grounds for divorce and alimony if I were the Judge presiding over that one ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 21:24:26 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually she threw it out after the divorce. I had been storing it in the attic of the house (which she got in the divorce). But there was NOTHING else in the attic nor was it in the way. She just goty pissed one day, and it was gone with no notice. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vintage >>> Computer Festival >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:03 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) >>> >>> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> >>> > Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because it >>> was "junk"...... >>> > The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. >>> >>> That would certainly be grounds for divorce and alimony if >>> I were the Judge presiding over that one ;) >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer Festival >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> ------------------ >>> International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> >>> [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade >>> Vintage Computers ] >>> [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 16 21:22:38 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 05:41:19PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being > developed today. > > For example: > > - IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, Got one of those (HDD-64 IDE interface for the C-64). I use mine with a 20MB HP Kittyhawk drive (1.3"). > - Vince's M452X and W076X PDP-8 replacement boards I have some of those that I haven't been home to assemble yet. I'd wanted to make a 300-baud-multiple crystal controlled clock for my PDP-8/L since about 1984, but never got around to it... I'm happy Vince did the hard work of layout and PCB manufacture. > - Bob Armstrong's SBC6120 Got a couple of those, too... Hmm... I must be a neo-retro-classicist. :-) Would the 2003-pressing of the Dragon's Lair LaserDisc count? I built my own Dragon's Lair/Space Ace LED scoreboard from scratch, but I know some people who bought a hobby-commercial one. That certainly should count. There's a lot of neo-retro accessories in the video game crowd, especially with DL and SA (complete cabinets, LaserDisc hardware adapters to use modern LD players with original board sets, etc.) I forget who, but someone has built a one-off DF-32 implementation in TTL with a Dallas battery-backed NVRAM (like a large version of the NVRAM found in SPARC boxes). There seems to be an implementation bug, so it doesn't work perfectly with original software, but you can write new stuff from scratch that works well (there was some sense that was flipped between a DF-32 and the RF-08, it's related to that, somehow). There's a new TTL-based 1802 implementation (with toggles and TIL-311s), with two expansions so far, a keypad and a RS-232 level shifter/RAM/NVRAM board. I've also seen a project to hang a 3c509 off of a VIC-20. That's all I can think of off the top of my head for neo-retro stuff. Can't wait to hear what other people come up with. -ethan > So basically, I'd like to know about any new hardware (and I guess > software) being developed and/or sold for vintage computers. I'm going to > compile a directory for this stuff and I also have other plans that may or > may not come to fruition. > > I imagine you can post them to the list since it might be useful for other > folks to know about these projects, but please copy me directly > . > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 02:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -49.8 F (-45.5 C) Windchill -80.40 F (-62.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.6 kts Grid 021 Barometer 684.9 mb (10440. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jun 16 21:25:01 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > P.S. Anybody here get into the Computer Chronicles TV show from > the 80's and 90's? There is an ftp site that has tons of episodes > in mpeg format (1gb per 30 mins or so). I grabbed a few so far and > they bring back the memories I had of watching the PBS show in the > 80's. I remember that, as I'm sure a lot of list members do. I also remember a show called _Fast_Forward_ on PBS in the late 1970's. The show's intro was a montage of historical photographs... early telegraph equipment, telephone exchanges, then video of "up-to-date" computer equipment like IBM, CDC and Honeywell big iron. I'm a little fuzzy on the content of the show, I seem to remember basics of Boolean logic and digital design. It was hosted by the same guy each week, I can close my eyes and see his face but can't remember his name. I've never been able to find anything about it on the web, mostly because the title generates too much noise in searches. From aw288 at osfn.org Wed Jun 16 21:26:30 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > Well if you guys started collecting back in 97-98 you probably got quite a > few expensive computers for next to nothing, Yep! [grinning] > which is allot harder to do > today when there are more people in the hobby. I didn't start until 3 or so > years ago, but I don't go for the rarities anyway. On the flip side, for those os us that have been collecting for a long time (for me, it's almost 20 years since I bought a PDP-8/S of $5.00 [grinning, again]), we are cursed by all of the machines we culd have had, but passed up (like an old Amdahl [not grinning]). > P.S. Anybody here get into the Computer Chronicles TV show from the 80's and > 90's? There is an ftp site that has tons of episodes in mpeg format (1gb per > 30 mins or so). I grabbed a few so far and they bring back the memories I > had of watching the PBS show in the 80's. A neat show. I remember a computer show from the early 1980s that would air on the PBS educational stations (channel 20 in Chicago - "lots of watch TV for college credit" shows from the Annenburg CPB Project) quite a bit that was sort of an introduction to data processing. Each show would focus on one topic, just as a textbook would. VERY cool, as there would be lots of shots of early 80s computer rooms. PCs were just getting into the game (note: real PCs, not PeeCees), so the micros in the show were classics. Lots of mini and mainframe goodies, even a show on supercomputers. I can not remember the name of the show, and I doubt anyone still shows it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 16 21:41:54 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 17, 4 02:22:38 am" Message-ID: <200406170241.TAA33962@floodgap.com> > So basically, I'd like to know about any new hardware (and I guess > software) being developed and/or sold for vintage computers. I'm going to > compile a directory for this stuff and I also have other plans that may or > may not come to fruition. http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ Most of the development proceeds for C64/128 -- I hardly develop for DOS anymore. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Diamonds Are Forever" ----------------------------- From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 16 21:29:47 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <0406170206.AA16089@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406170206.AA16089@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040617022947.GC28971@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:06:42PM -0700, Michael Sokolov wrote: > David V. Corbin wrote: > > > Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because it was "junk"...... > > The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. > > Now that one deserves execution! I would not settle for anything less > than the death penalty for her. Heat up the Molten Iron!!! -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 02:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.2 F (-45.7 C) Windchill -77.40 F (-60.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.19 kts Grid 020 Barometer 685 mb (10436. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 16 21:47:19 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jun 16, 4 07:02:46 pm" Message-ID: <200406170247.TAA16280@floodgap.com> > > Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because it was "junk"...... > > The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. > > That would certainly be grounds for divorce and alimony if I were the > Judge presiding over that one ;) Not me. I say, firing squad with rubber bullets repeatedly until dead. (Please refer to the scene in 'jackass: the movie' where Johnny Knoxville takes a beanbag 'non-lethal projectile' to the abdomen. Non-lethal is a relative assessment.) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "I think you underestimate the stupidness." -------------------------------- From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 16 21:43:02 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <20040617022947.GC28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 10:30 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) >>> >>> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:06:42PM -0700, Michael Sokolov wrote: >>> > David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > >>> > > Ps: It was ex-Wife #2 who threw out my PDP-8/I because >>> it was "junk"...... >>> > > The one thing I still have not forgiven her for. >>> > >>> > Now that one deserves execution! I would not settle for >>> anything less >>> > than the death penalty for her. >>> >>> Heat up the Molten Iron!!! >>> >>> -ethan >>> >>> -- >>> Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at >>> 17-Jun-2004 02:20 Z >>> South Pole Station >>> PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.2 F (-45.7 C) Windchill >>> -77.40 F (-60.8 C) >>> APO AP 96598 Wind 8.19 kts Grid 020 Barometer >>> 685 mb (10436. ft) >>> >>> Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov >>> http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html Nah, I'll just send her to Ethan (without a coat!) From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 16 21:50:11 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> References: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040617025011.GD28971@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 10:08:58PM -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well if you guys started collecting back in 97-98 you probably got quite a > few expensive computers for next to nothing, which is allot harder to do > today when there are more people in the hobby. I didn't start until 3 or so > years ago, but I don't go for the rarities anyway. I started so long ago, some of the machines were new (Quest Elf, PET, C-64, VIC-20, Amiga) and some of the machines were still in somewhat common usage (PDP-8, Qbus PDP-11, PC-XT...) For example, I bought the Elf kit and the PET in the late '70s, new, the VIC-20 and C-64 in the early '80s, new, and several Amigas in the mid-to-late '80s, also new. My first PDP-8 was in 1982, and two years later, I got a five or six-year-old PDP-8/a for free (and then spent thousands of dollars of upgrades for it - RL8A, KT8A, MSC8-DJ (128KW)). I was buying PDP-11s to use for contract work in the mid-1980s that were between five and eight years old to write software for the 11/73 w/Fuji Eagle that my customer just paid many thousands of dollars for. I just didn't throw them out when I was done (11/23 w/RLV11, 2xRL01 + borrowed RL02, LPV11, LA180, DLV11-J, VT220, etc.) I rescued several VAXen from my former employer when they closed, and continued to provide (paid) support for our customer base for almost two years. Many of my DEC purchases have been commercially motivated, not hobby motivated, but when the job was done, I still had the toys. I did pay a bit of money for one elusive model - a PDP-8/S (but I know several people who picked them up 20 years earlier for $50 or less). What has changed over the last 25 years for me is that some machines I could never have afforded new have come to me for free, and some machines that I never would have considered owning when they were new, were cheap enough that they were worth playing with for a bit before moving on. I guess I didn't come into the collecting hobby - it kind of fell on me. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 02:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.5 F (-45.9 C) Windchill -81.7 F (-63.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 026 Barometer 685 mb (10436. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vrs at msn.com Wed Jun 16 21:55:46 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware References: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > > - Vince's M452X and W076X PDP-8 replacement boards > > I have some of those that I haven't been home to assemble yet. I'd wanted > to make a 300-baud-multiple crystal controlled clock for my PDP-8/L since > about 1984, but never got around to it... I'm happy Vince did the hard work > of layout and PCB manufacture. Your'e welcome :-)! > I forget who, but someone has built a one-off DF-32 implementation in TTL with > a Dallas battery-backed NVRAM (like a large version of the NVRAM found in SPARC > boxes). There seems to be an implementation bug, so it doesn't work perfectly > with original software, but you can write new stuff from scratch that works > well (there was some sense that was flipped between a DF-32 and the RF-08, it's > related to that, somehow). That was done by Charles Morris, and I now own the prototype. I am working (intermittently) on a related design for an RF08 replacement. (If someone can help me with the indicator panel for the RF08 replacement, I'd appreciate it.) The implementation bug (in Rev A) was that the "skip on no error" was implemented as "skip on error", RF08 style. I also have stuff that may never see implementation (like my TC08 replica), and an EAGLE library of DEC Gxxx and Mxxx modules (both as components for projects like the TC08 replica and as individual boards you could have produced). Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed Jun 16 22:03:07 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu><3.0.6.32.20040615214948.009adad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40D0D8AA.5080705@tiac.net> Message-ID: > And the other list members don't even boot the their machines, and post > to the list about people > who don't use their old machines. (insert stuipid smiley face icon > here, using a number 2 pencil > and your ASR-33 system console.) Hey, I resemble that remark :-)! Vince From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 16 22:22:35 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040617032235.GE28971@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 05:32:17PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > to their old computers. The list is actually what brought forth the VCF. > those of you who've been around since May of 1997 will remember that I > first proposed the VCF (originally to be called the CCC: Classic Computer > Convention) circa that time. Hmm... by grubbing in the old classiccmp archives on archive.org, the oldest message of mine I could find is from 5-Mar-1998, but I could have sworn I saw that old thread. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.6 F (-45.9 C) Windchill -82.2 F (-63.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.3 kts Grid 028 Barometer 684.8 mb (10444. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 22:24:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well if you guys started collecting back in 97-98 you probably got quite a Actually, I really started in the late 1980s, though I didn't consider myself a "collector" back then. Just a computer enthusiast who loved them all. > few expensive computers for next to nothing, which is allot harder to do That's for certain. Though the monetary aspect was never my primary concern. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 16 22:28:17 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 05:41:19PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being > > developed today. > > > > For example: > > > > - IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, > > Got one of those (HDD-64 IDE interface for the C-64). I use mine > with a 20MB HP Kittyhawk drive (1.3"). Links please. Just mere mention of its existence does my resource "directory" no good ;( > Would the 2003-pressing of the Dragon's Lair LaserDisc count? I built my > own Dragon's Lair/Space Ace LED scoreboard from scratch, but I know some > people who bought a hobby-commercial one. That certainly should count. That gets more into arcade games, which is a whole other arena that I'd rather leave to other enthusiasts. > There's a lot of neo-retro accessories in the video game crowd, > especially with DL and SA (complete cabinets, LaserDisc hardware > adapters to use modern LD players with original board sets, etc.) There certainly is. > I forget who, but someone has built a one-off DF-32 implementation in > TTL with a Dallas battery-backed NVRAM (like a large version of the > NVRAM found in SPARC boxes). There seems to be an implementation bug, so > it doesn't work perfectly with original software, but you can write new > stuff from scratch that works well (there was some sense that was > flipped between a DF-32 and the RF-08, it's related to that, somehow). I'm more interested in devices that are intended to be either sold or the plans made available for multiple unit production. > There's a new TTL-based 1802 implementation (with toggles and TIL-311s), > with two expansions so far, a keypad and a RS-232 level > shifter/RAM/NVRAM board. Again, links, please. > I've also seen a project to hang a 3c509 off of a VIC-20. Links? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 22:41:59 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040616202920.X26902@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't dispute you _can_ teach real computing using PCs, although IMHO > Acorn machines (which were designed for eduactional uses) are IMHO more > suitable (and of course a room of Beebs or Archs is just as reliable as a > room of PCs, I wasn't talking about having a multi-user mini). I don't dispute that Acorn machines are BETTER. and certainly more fun But,... the goal at that time (before I got there) was NOT to teach real computing. It was to teach introductory programming in FORTRAN, COBOL, RPG, etc. PCs with aftermarket expansion and IBM (MICROS~1) compilers (site license!), were the cheapest way to get a few dozen machines. The cost benefit situation is considerably different for a college computer lab than it is for personal or business use. With a finite budget, would you get two dozen mediocre machines, or half a dozen good ones? Interfacing was a topic covered by the Electronics department, NOT the DP department, until the Electronics department was assassinated. And now the administration has taken over all purchasing decisions, and won't let us get anything other than one specific model of HPaq. > And FWIW, according to the current UK educational standards I don't know > how to use a computer (!)... I don't have the formal prerequisites to be allowed to take some of the courses that I teach. unless I sign up for my own beginning classes,... -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 16 22:43:31 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040617034331.GF28971@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 07:55:46PM -0700, vrs wrote: > I wrote: > > I forget who, but someone has built a one-off DF-32 implementation in TTL > > with a Dallas battery-backed NVRAM... > > That was done by Charles Morris, and I now own the prototype. Neat. I'm not sure I'd heard that. > I am working (intermittently) on a related design for an RF08 replacement. So I recall. > (If someone can help me with the indicator panel for the RF08 replacement, > I'd appreciate it.) Sorry... can't help with that. I have 2 DF-32s and 2 DS-32s and plenty of docs, but not a thing related to any of the larger RF drives. I've never even seen more than a picture of an RF08. > The implementation bug (in Rev A) was that the "skip on no error" was > implemented as "skip on error", RF08 style. That was it. Thanks. > I also have stuff that may never see implementation (like my TC08 replica), > and an EAGLE library of DEC Gxxx and Mxxx modules (both as components for > projects like the TC08 replica and as individual boards you could have > produced). Never say never... now a generic Mxxx board with, say, 4 16-pin sockets and a double row of 32 pads might be handy - one set mapped to the sockets, the other set mapped to the fingers - drop in the necessary chips and wire up the pads... that would be nice to have for certain projects (like adding an EAE or memory extension hardware). It would, in fact, resemble a paddle card for a 40-pin cable like we've been talking about, but with 4 sockets above where the cable connector would go (and an extra row of vias not attached to the fingers). Between PDP-8/Ls, a PDP-8/i, an RK11C, and a few odds and ends, I'm not exactly hurting for M-series cards, but there are a few that I don't have abundant spares of - I do at least have a pile of boards that have verified bad chips (mostly 7474s and 7440s). Still, I wouldn't mind being able to whip out a module for which I _don't_ have a sample of. I only have two blank proto modules. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 03:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.8 F (-46.0 C) Windchill -84 F (-64.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.5 kts Grid 015 Barometer 684.7 mb (10448. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 16 23:08:03 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <20040616202920.X26902@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040616202920.X26902@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200406170409.AAA01366@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > And now the administration has taken over all purchasing decisions, > and won't let us get anything other than one specific model of HPaq. > I don't have the formal prerequisites to be allowed to take some of > the courses that I teach. > unless I sign up for my own beginning classes,... After reading these combined, I just gotta ask, what on earth are you doing still teaching there?? >> And FWIW, according to the current UK educational standards I don't >> know how to use a computer (!)... Me neither, probably. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 16 23:25:33 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406170409.AAA01366@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20040616202920.X26902@newshell.lmi.net> <200406170409.AAA01366@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040616211646.L26902@newshell.lmi.net> > > And now the administration has taken over all purchasing decisions, > > and won't let us get anything other than one specific model of HPaq. > > I don't have the formal prerequisites to be allowed to take some of > > the courses that I teach. > > unless I sign up for my own beginning classes,... On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > After reading these combined, I just gotta ask, what on earth are you > doing still teaching there?? Damfino golden handcuffs - good health coverage, tenure, in a market where jobs are scarce and often not stable; and about 5 more years to go until retirement with health coverage at about 2/3 of my pay ... and no matter how frustrating and annoying the administation is, the students are good, and that makes it all worthwhile. > >> And FWIW, according to the current UK educational standards I don't > >> know how to use a computer (!)... > Me neither, probably. :-) Nobody who is actually competent meets the formal parameters. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vrs at msn.com Wed Jun 16 23:29:54 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware References: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> <20040617034331.GF28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > > I also have stuff that may never see implementation (like my TC08 replica), > > and an EAGLE library of DEC Gxxx and Mxxx modules (both as components for > > projects like the TC08 replica and as individual boards you could have > > produced). > > Never say never... Problem is that it would cost upwards of a couple thousand bucks to make a one-off prototype ot the TC08 replica. The backplane PCB is $500 (in qty 1), then there are the inobtanium connectors, and then 77 Mxxx and Gxxx modules to fabricate or obtain. > now a generic Mxxx board with, say, 4 16-pin sockets > and a double row of 32 pads might be handy - one set mapped to the sockets, > the other set mapped to the fingers - drop in the necessary chips and wire > up the pads... that would be nice to have for certain projects (like adding > an EAE or memory extension hardware). It would, in fact, resemble a paddle > card for a 40-pin cable like we've been talking about, but with 4 sockets > above where the cable connector would go (and an extra row of vias not > attached to the fingers). That is easy, and not a bad idea. > Between PDP-8/Ls, a PDP-8/i, an RK11C, and a few odds and ends, I'm not > exactly hurting for M-series cards, but there are a few that I don't have > abundant spares of - I do at least have a pile of boards that have verified > bad chips (mostly 7474s and 7440s). Still, I wouldn't mind being able to > whip out a module for which I _don't_ have a sample of. I only have two > blank proto modules. I currently have drawings (schematic and board) for the G821, G879, G888, H807, M101, M103, M111, M113, M115, M117, M119, M121, M161, M206, M207, M228, M302, M307, M401, M502, M602, M623, M627, M633, M903, M916, W005, W023, and W032. These, and the TC08, are "replicas", by which I mean that they follow the DEC schematics, layout, etc. There are few other Mxxx/Wxxx paddle cards, and of course the M452x and W076x as well, that aren't replicas of DEC parts (which I call "replacements" instead). I think it would be useful to have a pointer page similar to what Sellam is proposing, but that included this kind of stuff. Although it isn't stuff you can buy (yet, or maybe ever), it is still useful to prevent duplication of effort and provide resources for people interested in doing this kind of work. (I could do that myself, but I don't find maintaining websites to be fun :-).) Vince From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jun 17 00:01:30 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> References: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Ernest wrote: > > On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival > > > > Here's a Tandy 2000 (kinda rarish) with a starting price of $9.99 and > > no bids with 1 day to go: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5101374189 > > I think the Tandy 2000 is, in technical terms, a very cool computer. I > had one for a while but I didn't have the keyboard for it so I couldn't > use it. > > Does anyone have one of these heavy bastards in functional condition? I > know of several partial 2000's but I don't know of anyone who has a > complete setup. I have one that has the hard drive option that I picked up sometime around 1993. It would power up, but I didn't get a keyboard or the monochrome monitor with it. I eventually found a keyboard, but I still haven't come across a monitor. -Toth From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Jun 17 00:21:06 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! References: Message-ID: <001f01c4542a$e41afcb0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> but... but ,,, all things change... politics change... interests change.... missions of web sites change..... if it exists in only one place ...when in doubt make a copy of it. yes, I imagine microsoft has one of the least chances of going away but site useages do change.... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, ed sharpe wrote: > > > thats nice but if that site went away then what?? > > As much as it would please (and shock) me to see microsoft.com go away, I > don't think that's going to happen any time soon. > > Say or think what you want about Microsoft, but they are (for better or > worse) here to stay. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 17 00:38:58 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: from Tothwolf at "Jun 17, 4 00:01:30 am" Message-ID: <200406170538.WAA02366@floodgap.com> > I have one that has the hard drive option that I picked up sometime around > 1993. It would power up, but I didn't get a keyboard or the monochrome > monitor with it. I eventually found a keyboard, but I still haven't come > across a monitor. One of the other auctions from this guy has the monitor (no cable, though). -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jun 17 01:39:12 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > But there definitely will be, at some point, very topical discussions > about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa Local Bus > motherboards or interface cards around anymore? Quite a few actually... I have a fair number of VLB and EISA based systems still running, and at least a couple boxes of assorted VLB boards in storage. (I'm still looking for certain types of boards for software testing though...) -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jun 17 01:40:55 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: <200406170538.WAA02366@floodgap.com> References: <200406170538.WAA02366@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I have one that has the hard drive option that I picked up sometime > > around 1993. It would power up, but I didn't get a keyboard or the > > monochrome monitor with it. I eventually found a keyboard, but I still > > haven't come across a monitor. > > One of the other auctions from this guy has the monitor (no cable, > though). Alas, shipping one of those monitors would likely be a nightmare... -Toth From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jun 17 01:49:37 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 Message-ID: Technically I guess it wasn't a find, as this time this one found me... A friend found a SuperPET in someone's trash pile this afternoon and dropped it by. It came with a 2040 dual drive floppy disk and the IEEE interface cable. It is pretty rough looking and according to the friend, was in the former owners garage for quite some time. It looks like it sat on the cement floor for awhile too, as it has lots of small rust spots. On that note, whats the best way to clean up rust spots on these types of systems? Should they be buffed out or is repainting a better idea? -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 17 02:22:23 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: Message-ID: <001701c4543b$d5b3f1c0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 2:39 AM Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > But there definitely will be, at some point, very topical discussions > > about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa Local Bus > > motherboards or interface cards around anymore? > > Quite a few actually... I have a fair number of VLB and EISA based systems > still running, and at least a couple boxes of assorted VLB boards in > storage. (I'm still looking for certain types of boards for software > testing though...) > > -Toth > I have to admit that VLB boards (other then cheap IDE ones) are kind of hard to find even on eBay. Good thing I have quite a few for my 486/66 system. Besides standard video, HD controllers, and SCSI cards were there any other type of VLB cards (video capture, etc)? I don't remember any. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 17 02:29:31 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040617072931.GA11076@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 01:39:12AM -0500, Tothwolf wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > But there definitely will be, at some point, very topical discussions > > about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa Local Bus > > motherboards or interface cards around anymore? > > Quite a few actually... I have a fair number of VLB and EISA based systems > still running, and at least a couple boxes of assorted VLB boards in > storage. (I'm still looking for certain types of boards for software > testing though...) I, too, have some VLB hardware that I use when I'm home - my old Win3.1 box is still running Win3.1. Mostly, I use it for cutting 5.25" disks. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2004 07:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -51.5 F (-46.4 C) Windchill -80.40 F (-62.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9 kts Grid 060 Barometer 685.8 mb (10408. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tothwolf at concentric.net Thu Jun 17 02:53:35 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <001701c4543b$d5b3f1c0$0500fea9@game> References: <001701c4543b$d5b3f1c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > From: "Tothwolf" > > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > > But there definitely will be, at some point, very topical > > > discussions about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see > > > any Vesa Local Bus motherboards or interface cards around anymore? > > > > Quite a few actually... I have a fair number of VLB and EISA based > > systems still running, and at least a couple boxes of assorted VLB > > boards in storage. (I'm still looking for certain types of boards for > > software testing though...) > > I have to admit that VLB boards (other then cheap IDE ones) are kind of > hard to find even on eBay. Good thing I have quite a few for my 486/66 > system. Besides standard video, HD controllers, and SCSI cards were > there any other type of VLB cards (video capture, etc)? I don't remember > any. Most of my cards came from "computer graveyard" type shops that I used to hunt though in years past. I don't remember any video VLB video capture cards, but the ISA type were common, and were usually just connected to the VLB video card in a VLB system (though the Diamond Viper VLB has no expansion connector... supposedly just an oversight during the design phase.) There were some VLB sound cards, but I doubt they really made any use of the VLB bus. I do have some VLB NE2000 based network cards. I've never done any sort of benchmarking on them though, so I have no idea if they are any faster than an ISA NE2000 card. I suspect that they might actually be a little slower, since the drivers are not as well tested. The boards I'm really after are things like the Promise caching EIDE controllers, S3 based and/or Diamond brand video cards (any bus type), some SCSI controllers (I don't think I need any more Adaptec 1740/1742 cards though!), and probably other boards I can't think of right now. I have my fair share of junk ISA cards too (and if anyone needs a particular model of ISA IDE/IO card, I might just have it...) While on the subject of EISA stuff...I finally got my hands on a nice EISA testbed platform not too long ago, but it doesn't have any hard drive mounting sleds. The system is a Dell Poweredge SP5100-2, and it came with 4 Adaptec AHA-2742 in some of the slots. Those are a dual channel bus mastering fast SCSI controller, and are great for my stacks of cdrom changers and such. I added two more AHA-2742 cards, so it technically now has 13 fast SCSI channels (12 add-on, 1 built-in). Anyhow, if anyone has hard drive sleds or the brackets for mounting drives in the bays of that system laying about, contact me off-list. -Toth From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 17 03:05:46 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: <001701c4543b$d5b3f1c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <00a901c45441$e4f97e60$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tothwolf" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:53 AM Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) > > From: "Tothwolf" > > > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I do have some VLB NE2000 based network cards. I've never done any sort of > benchmarking on them though, so I have no idea if they are any faster than > an ISA NE2000 card. I suspect that they might actually be a little slower, > since the drivers are not as well tested. Do you have a picture of one of these VLB network cards? Is it 10/100? From cannings at earthlink.net Wed Jun 16 20:03:31 2004 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Cool 4004 based calculator References: <200406161616.JAA10813@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <002f01c45406$ea157bf0$6401a8c0@hal9000> Dwight, Thanks for the info. We had numerous projects at Hughes Aircraft written in FORTH. It's like a dogma. People either love it or hate it. I had a bumper sticker that said "FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN". If you have some spare time could you forward a copy of the emulator ? Thank you very much. Best regards, Steven P.S. Quote from Yoda (Star Wars fame) " Learn FORTH quickly I will". (RPN humor) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 9:16 AM Subject: Re: Cool 4004 based calculator > Hi Steven > It is an offshoot of fig Forth. I wrote the stuff > under FPC by Tom Zimmer. It is mostly Forth-83. > One could make it work under most any other but > like most Forths of this era, the file access > may be different. > Of course, one can still get FPC from the web. > Dwight >From: "Steven Canning" > >Dwight, > >Is it written in micro-FORTH or FIG FORTH ? > >Best regards, Steven > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" >To: >Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 5:00 PM >Subject: Re: Cool 4004 based calculator > > >> Hi >> I thought I'd mention that I've written a simulator >> for the 4004 in the environment of a SIM-4. One >> could adapt it to most any hardware environment. >> It is written in Forth so it can be quite flexible >> for someone that knows Forth. >> If anyone is interested, I can dig it up. With >> a little time to refamiliarize myself with the >> code, I can help connect up I/O. >> It runs under FPC on a DOS PC platform. There is >> a simple assembler and disassembler as well. >> For someone wanting to do a 4004 project, it can >> be quite useful at debugging code and hardware >> concepts. >> Dwight >> >> >> > > > From keith at saracom.com Thu Jun 17 00:02:46 2004 From: keith at saracom.com (Keith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Subject: Re: DEC Professional 350 In-Reply-To: <200406162351.i5GNnVhm009460@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20040616215156.009d16d0@mail.saracom.com> I believe there are only 2 public domain OSes for the Pro series. One is the infamous PO/S and the other is Venix. Both are available from ftp.update.uu.se. You need Proaccms.zip if you run Venix and have acess to a MS-DOS machine. Proaccms.zip is available at www.saracom.com :) RT-11 does run nicely but it is still copyrighted. I don't know about whether the other OSes will run. Max >On OSes for the From ernestls at comcast.net Wed Jun 16 23:54:29 2004 From: ernestls at comcast.net (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Tandy 2000 In-Reply-To: <20040617020003.GA28971@bos7.spole.gov> References: <000501c453c8$a88612a0$bf6d1018@ernest> <20040617020003.GA28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <1087448068.15296.10.camel@x1-6-00-60-08-a5-df-1f> On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 19:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 10:37:54AM -0700, Ernest wrote: > > Does anyone have one of these heavy bastards in functional condition? I > > know of several partial 2000's but I don't know of anyone who has a > > complete setup. > > How do you define "complete"? I have one that worked before it went in the > box and on the shelf, but I probably don't have every peripheral ever made > for it. Well, I was thinking of "more" complete than the one that I had. Specifically, it would include the monitor AND keyboard, both of which were proprietary to the Tandy 2000 alone. I guess an operating system would be good to have, too. I'm not sure of how much more there was. Mine had the internal hard drive and controller card. In fact, I still have the video cable around here somewhere. I don't know why I saved it? I was only curious to know if any working 2000 were still around. I am only interested in collecting Apple II clones these days but there are some computers, like the 2000, that I still have a soft spot for. A Gimex Ghost or Luxor ABC 80 are two others (drool.) E. http://www.apple2clones.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 05:26:59 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087468019.29729.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 01:36, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Ah! I joined 3/3/98. Here is the bit from the subscribe reply: Hmm, I don't have complete archives from back then - I found an email that says I was on the list for the second time in July 1998 :-) Unfortunately a lot of my old email got hosed in a disk crash several years ago... I'd joined prior to that though, but in the meantime my company at the time migrated email addresses over to a new format, and so I fell off the list for a bit. I don't remember having to justify my inclusion on the list though. One of my first posts much have been about my Tektronix XD88, which is still running (or was on last boot, it deserves another). I know getting that machine sorted out was an ongoing back-burner project in 1996/1997. cheers Jules From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Jun 17 06:23:29 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! In-Reply-To: <001f01c4542a$e41afcb0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: While Microsoft is almost certianly not going to go away any time soon, their web site does change quite frequently. They REMOVE significant amounts of content on a regular basis. If you see something on microsoft.com that you want/need for future reference, MAKE A COPY [not a link] of the page and related (e.g. graphic) files. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ed sharpe >>> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 1:21 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings >>> and Examples book is online! >>> >>> but... but ,,, all things change... politics change... >>> interests change.... missions of web sites change..... >>> if it exists in only one place ...when in doubt make a >>> copy of it. yes, I imagine microsoft has one of the least >>> chances of going away but site useages do change.... >>> >>> Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC >>> >>> Please check our web site at >>> http://www.smecc.org >>> to see other engineering fields, communications and >>> computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona >>> drop in and see us. >>> >>> address: >>> >>> coury house / smecc >>> 5802 w palmaire ave >>> glendale az 85301 >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Vintage Computer Festival" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 9:26 PM >>> Subject: Re: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings >>> and Examples book is online! >>> >>> >>> > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, ed sharpe wrote: >>> > >>> > > thats nice but if that site went away then what?? >>> > >>> > As much as it would please (and shock) me to see >>> microsoft.com go away, I >>> > don't think that's going to happen any time soon. >>> > >>> > Say or think what you want about Microsoft, but they are >>> (for better or >>> > worse) here to stay. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > >>> > Sellam Ismail >>> Vintage Computer >>> Festival >>> > >>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>> -------------- >>> ---- >>> > International Man of Intrigue and Danger >>> http://www.vintage.org >>> > >>> > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage >>> mputers ] >>> > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at >>> http://marketplace.vintage.org ] >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> From charlesb at otcgaming.net Thu Jun 17 06:24:00 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) References: <40D0B111.1828BA5E@brothom.nl> <200406161708.12817.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <005d01c4545d$a7f3c900$7dc3033e@thunder> > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find > > out why. > > Are you subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? You shouldn't be. Yes, but they are sorted by mail rules and all the ones from the tech list go into a separate folder.. the dupes are all in the talk list Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Jun 17 06:40:44 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <005d01c4545d$a7f3c900$7dc3033e@thunder> Message-ID: I got a major burst of posts 04:40-04:42 [Eastern US] duplicating most of the days transmissions.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of >>> charlesb@otcgaming.net >>> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:24 AM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) >>> >>> >>> > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only >>> list I'm on). >>> > > >>> > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took >>> the effort to >>> > > find out why. >>> > >>> > Are you subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? You shouldn't be. >>> >>> Yes, but they are sorted by mail rules and all the ones >>> from the tech list go into a separate folder.. the dupes >>> are all in the talk list >>> >>> Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn >>> Quake3 Co-Lead >>> http://www.tsncentral.com >>> The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution >>> >>> --- >>> A: Top Posters >>> Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? >>> From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 17 08:52:36 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: from Tothwolf at "Jun 17, 4 01:39:12 am" Message-ID: <200406171352.GAA08514@floodgap.com> > > But there definitely will be, at some point, very topical discussions > > about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa Local Bus > > motherboards or interface cards around anymore? > > Quite a few actually... I have a fair number of VLB and EISA based systems > still running, and at least a couple boxes of assorted VLB boards in > storage. (I'm still looking for certain types of boards for software > testing though...) I've got a VLB-based 486 in the bedroom. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Hark, the Herald Tribune sings/Advertising wondrous things. -- Tom Lehrer -- From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 17 08:40:50 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:34 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <006001c45470$b44975c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > which is allot harder to do today when there are more > people in the hobby. I'd like to believe that's true, that there are more people collecting, but don't have anything to support it. What do you base the statement on? John A. > P.S. Anybody here get into the Computer Chronicles TV show Fine show. And no replacements that I've found either. The PC monoculture wins out again (grumble). From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 08:56:49 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: ROCC R2840 systems Message-ID: <1087480609.29729.111.camel@weka.localdomain> Anyone know what these are? Just been offered a couple of processor boxes with cache streamers, front-loading reel tape drives with vacuum load, and some sort of disk units ("platters the size of dinner plates" I was quoted) + terminals, printers, cabling etc. I'm awaiting photos, thought I'd ask in the meantime though. I assumed at first (from the mention of the size of things and the age) that it was "just" rebranded DEC stuff, but I could be wrong. Google didn't seem to have anything useful to say on 'ROCC' though, other than a modern systems company who could well have been around in the 70's selling rebadged equipment I suppose... Sounds like stuff that should be saved anyway, so reserve space in those garages now :-) cheers, Jules From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Jun 17 09:08:27 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) Message-ID: <33205121.1087481308628.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> my bedroom is required to be a computer free zone... -----Original Message----- From: Cameron Kaiser I've got a VLB-based 486 in the bedroom. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 17 09:16:50 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > A friend found a SuperPET in someone's trash pile this afternoon and > dropped it by. It came with a 2040 dual drive floppy disk and the IEEE > interface cable. It is pretty rough looking and according to the friend, > was in the former owners garage for quite some time. It looks like it sat > on the cement floor for awhile too, as it has lots of small rust spots. > > On that note, whats the best way to clean up rust spots on these types of > systems? Should they be buffed out or is repainting a better idea? > You lucky so and so. :) I'd love to have one of those, especially with the 8050 drive. *wistful sigh* (if anyone has one to part with, let me know) g. From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 17 09:24:42 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: <002201c45410$11bc0080$0500fea9@game> <006001c45470$b44975c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <002c01c45476$d51fed50$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:40 AM Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) > > which is allot harder to do today when there are more > > people in the hobby. > > I'd like to believe that's true, that there are more people > collecting, but don't have anything to support it. What do > you base the statement on? It's a gut feeling backed up by the popularity of retro computing sites poping up in the last few years. I don't know if all vintage equipment is being collected more, but there are alot of new people in the 8-16bit computer scene. Just like in fashion, cars, music, and movies once something gets to be 20 years old it gets popular again. Some of the craze is from retro gaming that is gaining in popularity, not everyone likes to run emulators so they start digging up the old computers and a few branch off into other systems. What I don't know is how many old timers have ditched their collections in the last few years and moved on. Sites like eBay have helped collectors by giving them a market to find the old machines they want. Lots of software that was assumed lost forever has been showing up in the last year or so, so people are actively looking for the items in question. You would have a better feal on the collectors who specialize in mini's and mainframes, I bet if somebody never used one or seen one in operation they might not be too keen on collecting them because of size, power, and complexity. The smaller desktop type systems (home computers) are what I see as being actively collected by the younger generation (Atari, Commodore, 68K apple, early PC's, Tandy, etc). > John A. > > > P.S. Anybody here get into the Computer Chronicles TV show > > Fine show. And no replacements that I've found either. > The PC monoculture wins out again (grumble). > The link below will take you to their downloadable archive (I was getting 350K/sec this morning) http://www.archive.org/movies/computerchronicles.php From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jun 17 09:41:07 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <200406170318.i5H3Iqhc012141@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406170318.i5H3Iqhc012141@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 22:18 -0500 6/16/04, pete@dunnington.u-net.com wrote: > According to my >SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP confirmation email (you all kept yours, didn't >you?) (mumble) (blush) er... ahh... it must be here somewhere. Earliest thing I have is from July 1997, which probably doesn't put me in the top thirty. But I've enjoyed the group enormously anyway. Re: charter mods: I love being able to ask about my NeXT on here, so 10 years is a nice number for me. 15 would be OK, I guess. I do think there is value to questions on how to run new software on old (>10 year) hardware. I do think there is value to questions on how to run old (>10 year) software on new hardware. I suspect there are very few "how do I fix my PC" annoying questioners who are using *either* hardware *or* software more than 10 years old. My vote is to keep the 10-year limit [1], and clarify it to make clear that if either the software running or the hardware it's running on makes the 10-year limit, it qualifies. [1] There's that VAX VLC4000 that I keep meaning to spend some quality time with....it's pretty fresh-on. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 17 09:55:13 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... References: Message-ID: <009101c4547b$1844f720$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > >>> Yes, but they are sorted by mail rules and all the ones > >>> from the tech list go into a separate folder.. the dupes > >>> are all in the talk list You do realize that's a complete duplication dont you? Anything posted on the tech list automatically shows up on the talk list.... Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From ernestls at comcast.net Thu Jun 17 09:55:53 2004 From: ernestls at comcast.net (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087484153.5206.11.camel@x1-6-00-60-08-a5-df-1f> On Wed, 2004-06-16 at 23:49, Tothwolf wrote: > Technically I guess it wasn't a find, as this time this one found me... > > A friend found a SuperPET in someone's trash pile this afternoon and > dropped it by. It came with a 2040 dual drive floppy disk and the IEEE > interface cable. It is pretty rough looking and according to the friend, > was in the former owners garage for quite some time. It looks like it sat > on the cement floor for awhile too, as it has lots of small rust spots. > > On that note, whats the best way to clean up rust spots on these types of > systems? Should they be buffed out or is repainting a better idea? Nice find! As for cleaning it up, I would take it apart as much as possible, and give the case a good scrubing with hot soapy water first so that you can have a better idea of how bad the rust is. Then, you could try using a polishing wax to rub the rust off of the good paint. It might be that the rust spots are small once you clean the worst of it off of the surrounding paint. If the paint job is beyond hope, you might as well try to do a restoration on it, rather than a preservation. One thing you might consider, if you really want it to look like new, is to take the empty case to an auto paint shop and have them give it a professional paint job. A friend of mine did this with one of his old computers, and the shop did a fantastic job for less than $100.00. Those guys know how to match paint, patch dents and scratches, and all that. E. http://www.apple2clones.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 11:08:18 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging Message-ID: <1087488498.29729.127.camel@weka.localdomain> Knowing that there's a few EBay users on the list who also know how to fix modern software... :-) On the rare occasions that I do actually bother to search EBay for anything classic computer related I quite often find that hitting the search submit button just hangs, with the browser (Opera under Linux in my case) sitting there saying "Waiting for DNS confirmation of cookie domain(s)". If I open another browser window at this point and then try and go to any other site it'll just sit there with the same message. If I close the browser and come back later it's fine. Very frustrating. Anyone else see this or know what causes it? I've *only* seen it happen trying to do an Ebay search, never with any other website - but it's been this way for months. Whilst it's hung like this in the browser I can do DNS lookups from the shell fine, so it's not a DNS problem or a local configuration problem. I assume Opera happens to use shared DNS lookup code and for some reason something to do with EBay's search *sometimes* makes it hang. Presumably others might be able to shed some light on this, or at least confim / deny that they've seen similar problems with EBay UK from different platforms and browsers... cheers Jules From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 11:38:25 2004 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: ROCC R2840 systems In-Reply-To: <1087480609.29729.111.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040617163825.62297.qmail@web13523.mail.yahoo.com> Very interesting. I worked for ROCC in the late 70's and early 80's on these and other similar systems. If I remember rightly, these may be the first generation of Rocc's bit slice processor systems. Up until that point the systems were essentially DG processors with a lot of other OEM peripherals bolted on. Proprietary terminals were required. Of course I could be wrong about the model number... but here goes anyway. ROCC was in the office systems business and also big suppliers of Viewdata systems. These were often used as data entry and collation systems as front ends to corporate mainframes. Again, if memory serves me, the working title for these was 'Furnace Green' systems (named for the area near to the Crawley manufacturing plant where we built them). Typical configurations would be 1M of semiconductor memory, a 16bit processor, a uart board driving a Gandalf modem rack for Viewdata access (with 1200/75 modems), a "scanner" board driving data entry terminals and tape and disk controllers with a cold-start panel running across the front. I think these systems had Fujitsu winchesters in them but ROCC also sold them with 33MB and 66MB Ampex drives with removeable disk packs. Not sure about the vacuum drives - I remember Digidata 9 track drives front-mounted. Would love to see pictures if you can post them anywhere. Hope this helps. Make a lot of room for these as they are quite big with peripherals. Software will be a problem so try to salvage any tapes or disk packs that you can lay your hands on. Try to get hold of a programmer's panel as well - this will give you lights-and-switches access to the processor and devices. The instruction set will resemble the Nova instruction set. Regards, Dave --- Jules Richardson wrote: > > Anyone know what these are? Just been offered a > couple of processor > boxes with cache streamers, front-loading reel tape > drives with vacuum > load, and some sort of disk units ("platters the > size of dinner plates" > I was quoted) + terminals, printers, cabling etc. > > I'm awaiting photos, thought I'd ask in the meantime > though. > > I assumed at first (from the mention of the size of > things and the age) > that it was "just" rebranded DEC stuff, but I could > be wrong. > > Google didn't seem to have anything useful to say on > 'ROCC' though, > other than a modern systems company who could well > have been around in > the 70's selling rebadged equipment I suppose... > > Sounds like stuff that should be saved anyway, so > reserve space in those > garages now :-) > > cheers, > > Jules > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 11:47:39 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > While Microsoft is almost certianly not going to go away any time soon, > their web site does change quite frequently. They REMOVE significant amounts > of content on a regular basis. If you see something on microsoft.com that > you want/need for future reference, MAKE A COPY [not a link] of the page and > related (e.g. graphic) files. Gordon Bell runs the website from which his work is available. So as long as he's around, it will stay. I'm not sure what provisions he may have made to ensure it stays there after he's gone. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 11:49:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) In-Reply-To: <005d01c4545d$a7f3c900$7dc3033e@thunder> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > > > > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find > > > out why. > > > > Are you subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? You shouldn't be. > > Yes, but they are sorted by mail rules and all the ones from the tech > list go into a separate folder.. the dupes are all in the talk list I'm only subscribe to CCTALK. Yesterday was particularly bad. I had to pick through multiple sets of duplicate postings in a sliding window of batches of repeat messages that kept moving throughout the day. Very frustrating. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 11:55:16 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 In-Reply-To: <1087484153.5206.11.camel@x1-6-00-60-08-a5-df-1f> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ernest wrote: > If the paint job is beyond hope, you might as well try to do a > restoration on it, rather than a preservation. One thing you might > consider, if you really want it to look like new, is to take the empty > case to an auto paint shop and have them give it a professional paint > job. A friend of mine did this with one of his old computers, and the > shop did a fantastic job for less than $100.00. Those guys know how to > match paint, patch dents and scratches, and all that. Or take it to a place that will powder coat it, so they can also match the texture. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 17 12:14:09 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > If the paint job is beyond hope, you might as well try to do a > > restoration on it, rather than a preservation. One thing you might > > consider, if you really want it to look like new, is to take the empty > > case to an auto paint shop and have them give it a professional paint > > job. A friend of mine did this with one of his old computers, and the > > shop did a fantastic job for less than $100.00. Those guys know how to > > match paint, patch dents and scratches, and all that. > > Or take it to a place that will powder coat it, so they can also match the > texture. > Better yet, mask off the logos, have it media blasted and then painted Candy Apple Red with flames running down the sides. :) g. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 12:27:24 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 Message-ID: <200406171727.KAA11725@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Vintage Computer Festival" > >On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ernest wrote: > >> If the paint job is beyond hope, you might as well try to do a >> restoration on it, rather than a preservation. One thing you might >> consider, if you really want it to look like new, is to take the empty >> case to an auto paint shop and have them give it a professional paint >> job. A friend of mine did this with one of his old computers, and the >> shop did a fantastic job for less than $100.00. Those guys know how to >> match paint, patch dents and scratches, and all that. > >Or take it to a place that will powder coat it, so they can also match the >texture. > Hi I'm told that some vinegar will remove rust stains. Try putting a piece of paper towel on a small patch and wet it with white distilled vinegar. Let it sit for a few hours and see how it does. Even if it doesn't work, what do you have to lose. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 12:29:35 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: ROCC R2840 systems In-Reply-To: <20040617163825.62297.qmail@web13523.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040617163825.62297.qmail@web13523.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1087493375.29729.139.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 16:38, David Comley wrote: > Very interesting. I worked for ROCC in the late 70's > and early 80's on these and other similar systems. Brilliant Dave, thanks for that. I'll sort out some pictures somewhere when I get them. Apparently the systems are in full working order and have been maintained by ROCC (implying that the company's still going somewhere). I've also been told that they're being made redundant in the next few months, implying that they might still be in use at present! (I'll ask about that) cheers, Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 12:40:14 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Jupitor Ace on eBay Message-ID: <200406171740.KAA11741@clulw009.amd.com> Hi There is a Jupiter Ace for sale on eBay. It is in the UK and has the PAL type output ( faster processor ). It comes with a large pile of software. I sure hope someone in this group gets it. Dwight From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 17 12:57:05 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Jupitor Ace on eBay In-Reply-To: <200406171740.KAA11741@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dwight K. Elvey > Sent: 17 June 2004 18:40 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Jupitor Ace on eBay > > Hi > There is a Jupiter Ace for sale on eBay. It is in the UK and > has the PAL type output ( faster processor ). It comes with a > large pile of software. > I sure hope someone in this group gets it. > Dwight There's actually 2 machines, the 2nd one has been, er, 'worked on'. I can't afford it but already have 2 so I guess that would be greedy :) As it happens I'm getting 20 or so cassettes if Ace software hopefully this week if the post gets it here, and someone has mailed me saying they've got the 'remains' of an Ace I can probably have.....not sure what he meant by 'remains' though :-/ Cheers w From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 13:16:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 In-Reply-To: <200406171727.KAA11725@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > I'm told that some vinegar will remove rust stains. Try > putting a piece of paper towel on a small patch and wet it > with white distilled vinegar. Let it sit for a few hours > and see how it does. > Even if it doesn't work, what do you have to lose. A teaspoon of vinegar :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 17 13:25:35 2004 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Witchy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model 1 Level II ROMs Message-ID: Folks, I've borrowed a universal device reader/programmer (MQP Pinmaster 48) and I'm trying to dump the ROMs from my dead TRS80. It claims to be able to read anything because of its completely configurable design (with an appropriate adapter for non-DIP style packaging) and I've already dumped some EEPROMS. However, it doesn't like either of the TRS80 chips (NEC 4K marked as 2332 and 2364) nor the ROMs on my Tangerine Microtan 65 TUGBOARD (4K roms again I think). This thing knows about over 6500 different *ROMs so maybe there's an equivalent name I can feed it to see if I can read these ROMs? Is there anyone with a TRS80 to hand who can tell me what ROMs theirs contains? TIA! -- Adrian/Witchy Owner & Webmaster, Binary Dinosaurs www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - possibly the UK's biggest online computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - ex-monthly gothic shenanigans :o( From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Jun 17 13:44:38 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> David V. Corbin wrote: > I got a major burst of posts 04:40-04:42 [Eastern US] duplicating most of > the days transmissions.... Is Eastern US GMT-0400? If so, that corresponds with a moderation time for cctech (finishing at 0942 GMT+0100), when 19 posts were sent to cctech. This just provides further evidence for my assertion that you are subscribed to both list views. -- Paul From f.heite at hccnet.nl Thu Jun 17 14:44:15 2004 From: f.heite at hccnet.nl (Freek Heite) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: IBM System/23 Datamaster ?? Message-ID: <200406171944.i5HJiDVP025547@smtp30.hccnet.nl> >From: steven >I recently acquired an IBM System/23 Datamaster (model >5322) computer, but I don't know anything about it. Quoting from BYTE September 1990, from an article "The creation of the IBM PC" by David J. Bradley (who worked on the development of both the DataMaster/23 and the IBM PC): ============================================================== The DataMaster was an Intel 8085-based system intended to run business applications written in BASIC. The one-piece DataMaster was a business-oriented single-user system. It served as a model for many of the features of the original IBM PC. The IBM PC keyboard came from the DataMaster. ============================================================== Sorry, no scanner in the house, so I can't send you a copy. Freek Heite. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 17 14:46:29 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040617124400.C41563@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Gordon Bell runs the website from which his work is available. So as long > as he's around, it will stay. I'm not sure what provisions he may have > made to ensure it stays there after he's gone. If he has NOT made some arrangements, then loss of the content from the Microsoft website might alert you to his passing before you see an obituary. From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 14:42:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Paul Williams wrote: > David V. Corbin wrote: > > I got a major burst of posts 04:40-04:42 [Eastern US] duplicating most of > > the days transmissions.... > > Is Eastern US GMT-0400? > > If so, that corresponds with a moderation time for cctech (finishing at > 0942 GMT+0100), when 19 posts were sent to cctech. > > This just provides further evidence for my assertion that you are > subscribed to both list views. Hey Paul. I believe David is getting multiple (i.e. greater than 2) bursts of the same messages. This is my case. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From stanb at dial.pipex.com Thu Jun 17 13:07:16 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:08:18 -0000." <1087488498.29729.127.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406171807.TAA13673@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Jules Richardson said: > > Knowing that there's a few EBay users on the list who also know how to > fix modern software... :-) > > On the rare occasions that I do actually bother to search EBay for > anything classic computer related I quite often find that hitting the > search submit button just hangs, with the browser (Opera under Linux in > my case) sitting there saying "Waiting for DNS confirmation of cookie > domain(s)". [snip] > Presumably others might be able to shed some light on this, or at least > confim / deny that they've seen similar problems with EBay UK from > different platforms and browsers... I use Opera and Linux and I've not noted this particular problem. It does sometimes hang when fetching pics from thumbs.ebaystatic.com. Stopping the download displays the page minus the thumbnails, so all is not lost. No problems noted with iCab on MacOs 8.6. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 14:49:30 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Incoming Msg Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617154930.009a47b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi All, I just got the message below from my ISP (Road Runner). It appears that a message from the CC List contained Zafi.B worm. I've just spent TWO+ days installing a new hard drive and reloading all my software after getting some DoS piece of crap that I couldn't remove from the old HD. Joe >Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:32:44 +0800 >From: Classiccmp >Subject: RE: Incoming Msg >To: Rigdonj >X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine >X-Virus-Scan-Result: Repaired 33994 W32.Beagle.X@mm >Original-recipient: rfc822;rigdonj@cfl.rr.com > > ALERT!!! >Road Runner is currently dropping all .com, .exe and .pif files due to the >negative affect on our network from the Zafi.B/W32.Erkez.B@mm virus. If >you need to send or receive one of these files types, please make sure that >the file is sent as a .zip or .gzip compressed file. Road Runner will >resume accepting these file extensions as soon as possible, once the >negative affect on our network is resolved. > >The following attachments were infected and have been repaired: >No attachments are in this category. > >The following attachments were deleted due to an inability to clean them: >1. Half_Live.scr: W32.Beagle.X@mm > >The Following attachments were not delivered due to inbound mail policy >violations: >No attachments are in this category. > > >Road Runner does not contact the sender of the infected attachment(s). > >For more information on Road Runner's virus filtering initiative, visit our >Help From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 14:53:45 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617155345.009a4620@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:16 AM 6/17/04 -0700, you wrote: > >> A friend found a SuperPET in someone's trash pile this afternoon and >> dropped it by. It came with a 2040 dual drive floppy disk and the IEEE >> interface cable. It is pretty rough looking and according to the friend, >> was in the former owners garage for quite some time. It looks like it sat >> on the cement floor for awhile too, as it has lots of small rust spots. >> >> On that note, whats the best way to clean up rust spots on these types of >> systems? Should they be buffed out or is repainting a better idea? Full strength Lime-Away will usually dissolve it. If it's on painted metal surface or plastic that acid won't hurt, I have full strength nitric acid to dissolve it. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 15:03:22 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <40D0D8AA.5080705@tiac.net> References: <200406152321.i5FNLjA1029238@queen.cs.drexel.edu> <3.0.6.32.20040615214948.009adad0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617160322.009a4a60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:32 PM 6/16/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Joe R. wrote: > > > > > >> >> >> Well Said! Too many members of this list simply collect old computers >>and don't bother with the related docs, manuals or application programs. I >>have an old original 64k IBM PC and it's been very intersting collecting >>original software and peripherals for it. Things like DOS 1.0, CPM-86, uSCD >>Pascal, Professional Fortran, PolyForth, IBM GPIB software, early versions >>of MS Word and MultiPlan, EasyWriter (written by none other than Capt'n >>Crunch!), etc etc. And that's just the software, it doesn't include all the >>various Tech Refs and all the fasinating 3rd party cards and peripherals. >>I don't like the current over-bloated version-of-the-day MicroSoft products >>either but it doesn't mean that the early PCs are uninteresting and not >>worth collecting. >> >> Joe >> >Careful Joe! > >Some members bother to write O/S's and programming languages for vintage >machines, and even >build boot device emulators and ship them to other list members who have >collections of machines >they are doing anything with. > >And the other list members don't even boot the their machines, and post >to the list about people >who don't use their old machines. (insert stuipid smiley face icon >here, using a number 2 pencil >and your ASR-33 system console.) Well make that people that don't use ALL of their machines! Honestly I have a lot more computers than I do time! > >By the way, I need to send you a new EPROM, the build you have has a >~nasty~ bug thats been >fixed with the latest build (which now has limited 7900 and IDE disk >support). Speaking of that. I almost snagged another HP1000 at KSC last week along with a 7900 DD, a D to A converter, a HP180D scope and more all mounted in a nice HP rack. I say almost because I didn't have a way to haul it so it went to the gold scrappers. I called eveyone that I knew that had a truck but couldn't get one. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 15:17:14 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: References: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617161714.009a6de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:28 PM 6/16/04 -0700, you wrote: > >On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 05:41:19PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: >> > >> > I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being >> > developed today. >> > >> > For example: >> > >> > - IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, >> >> Got one of those (HDD-64 IDE interface for the C-64). I use mine >> with a 20MB HP Kittyhawk drive (1.3"). > >Links please. Just mere mention of its existence does my resource >"directory" no good ;( > >> Would the 2003-pressing of the Dragon's Lair LaserDisc count? I built my >> own Dragon's Lair/Space Ace LED scoreboard from scratch, but I know some >> people who bought a hobby-commercial one. That certainly should count. > >That gets more into arcade games, which is a whole other arena that I'd >rather leave to other enthusiasts. > >> There's a lot of neo-retro accessories in the video game crowd, >> especially with DL and SA (complete cabinets, LaserDisc hardware >> adapters to use modern LD players with original board sets, etc.) > >There certainly is. > >> I forget who, but someone has built a one-off DF-32 implementation in >> TTL with a Dallas battery-backed NVRAM (like a large version of the >> NVRAM found in SPARC boxes). There seems to be an implementation bug, so >> it doesn't work perfectly with original software, but you can write new >> stuff from scratch that works well (there was some sense that was >> flipped between a DF-32 and the RF-08, it's related to that, somehow). > >I'm more interested in devices that are intended to be either sold or the >plans made available for multiple unit production. > >> There's a new TTL-based 1802 implementation (with toggles and TIL-311s), >> with two expansions so far, a keypad and a RS-232 level >> shifter/RAM/NVRAM board. Jim Kearney has a similar new implementation of the Mark-8 computer posted on the web somewhere. I lost of my links so I don't have the URL to it any more. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 15:29:26 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: <10406162122.ZM11973@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617162926.0079e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:22 PM 6/16/04 +0100, you wrote: > >I've put off asking about this in view of the discussion about what's >on/off topic, but I need some help from Those Who Know These Things. > >My specific requirement is to put together a PC to run 22DISK, my >DOS-only PAL/PROM programmer software, and the like. It will run DOS >6.22 in a FAT16 partition (and probably WinXP in another partition In that case, you might want to give this a try. . He says that it's pretty good. Let me know how it works for you. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 15:32:19 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617163219.009a43c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Bob Shannon and a couple of others are writing a new OS for the HP 1000s called HPIPL/OS. There's a website for it somewhere. Joe At 05:41 PM 6/16/04 -0700, you wrote: > > >I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being >developed today. > >For example: > >- IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, >- IDE HD interfaces for minis like Bob Shannon's for the HP1000, etc. >- Vince's M452X and W076X PDP-8 replacement boards >- Vince Briel's Replica-1 >- Catweasel (I count this as "neo-retro" because it's useful to us) >- Bob Armstrong's SBC6120 >- etc. > >So basically, I'd like to know about any new hardware (and I guess >software) being developed and/or sold for vintage computers. I'm going to >compile a directory for this stuff and I also have other plans that may or >may not come to fruition. > >I imagine you can post them to the list since it might be useful for other >folks to know about these projects, but please copy me directly >. > >Thanks! > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 17 15:30:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Incoming Msg In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040617154930.009a47b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040617154930.009a47b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406172032.QAA06476@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I just got the message below from my ISP (Road Runner). It appears > that a message from the CC List contained Zafi.B worm. This is correct - it *appears* so. It is, however, just an appearance; practically all of the viral infection attempts these days forge the from-lines, and I see no reason to think this is anything else. (Check the Received: headers - I feel sure you'll see that it never actually went anywhere near the machines that all list mail passes through.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Jun 17 15:39:31 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D20183.6080708@frixxon.co.uk> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I believe David is getting multiple (i.e. greater than 2) bursts of the > same messages. This is my case. Receiving more than two copies is still a mystery to me. If you receive the duplicates in bursts, as David reported, please tell me *off list* the time that you receive the burst, including your timezone. If I can correlate these times with moderation times, it will support a theory I have about a possible failure mechanism at classiccmp.org's end. I'm taking this off list now. -- Paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 15:58:29 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Incoming Msg In-Reply-To: <200406172032.QAA06476@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20040617154930.009a47b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040617154930.009a47b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617165829.008ea490@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> You may be right but I thought I should warn everyone. I'll forward the complete message to you directly along with the expanded headers. Maybe you can figure out where it came from. Joe At 04:30 PM 6/17/04 -0400, you wrote: > >> I just got the message below from my ISP (Road Runner). It appears >> that a message from the CC List contained Zafi.B worm. > >This is correct - it *appears* so. It is, however, just an appearance; >practically all of the viral infection attempts these days forge the >from-lines, and I see no reason to think this is anything else. (Check >the Received: headers - I feel sure you'll see that it never actually >went anywhere near the machines that all list mail passes through.) > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 17 15:59:35 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Incoming Msg In-Reply-To: "Joe R." "RE: Incoming Msg" (Jun 17, 15:49) References: <3.0.6.32.20040617154930.009a47b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10406172159.ZM13332@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17, 15:49, Joe R. wrote: > I just got the message below from my ISP (Road Runner). It appears that > a message from the CC List contained Zafi.B worm. That doesn't seem very likely, Joe. First of all, the mailing list won't send attachments, yet the report you got says the worm was in an attachment which was therefore removed. Secondly, they say the mail came "From: Classiccmp " The mailing list never sends a header like that. The mail currently comes with an envelope "From" (no colon) of "cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org" which contains no other name, and always claims to be "From:" (header "From:", with a colon) the original poster. What your ISP has reported on apeears to have had headers forged by the sender, and didn't come from the list. It may have come from some listmember's own machine, or at least an infected machine with "classiccmp@classiccmp.org" in an addressbook, but not the list. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 17 16:25:25 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model 1 Level II ROMs In-Reply-To: "Witchy" "TRS80 Model 1 Level II ROMs" (Jun 17, 19:25) References: Message-ID: <10406172225.ZM13351@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17, 19:25, Witchy wrote: > I've borrowed a universal device reader/programmer (MQP Pinmaster 48) and > I'm trying to dump the ROMs from my dead TRS80. It claims to be able to read > anything because of its completely configurable design (with an appropriate > adapter for non-DIP style packaging) and I've already dumped some EEPROMS. Sounds a bit like the MicroPross at CompSci, where I used to work. Very cool machine. > However, it doesn't like either of the TRS80 chips (NEC 4K marked as 2332 > and 2364) nor the ROMs on my Tangerine Microtan 65 TUGBOARD (4K roms again I > think). > > This thing knows about over 6500 different *ROMs so maybe there's an > equivalent name I can feed it to see if I can read these ROMs? 2332 is a standard mask-programmed ROM; lots of companies made them. uPD2332 is the equivalent of Intel 2332, Motorola MCM68A332, Mostek MK3200, Texas TMS4732, Signetics 2663, etc. However, one the options is how the outputs are enabled, controlled by pins 20 and 21. Each can separately be specified before manufacture as active high or active low. Some vendors also allowed a choice on pin 20, either a chip select or a power-down/output-enable (different timing, different effect on power consumption). Also, a 2364 is an 8K ROM, but I expect you worked that out. Check what the TRS80 expects the active level to be on each of those pins (I'd guess active low), and that the programmer is doing the same. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 17 16:26:35 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: "Joe R." "Re: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC" (Jun 17, 16:29) References: <3.0.6.32.20040617162926.0079e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <10406172226.ZM13354@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17, 16:29, Joe R. wrote: > At 09:22 PM 6/16/04 +0100, you wrote: > >My specific requirement is to put together a PC to run 22DISK, my > >DOS-only PAL/PROM programmer software, and the like. It will run DOS > >6.22 in a FAT16 partition (and probably WinXP in another partition > In that case, you might want to give this a try. > . Looks interesting. Once I get as far as fully-working drives and feel like installing something on the hard drive, I'll try it. Thanks! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 16:38:14 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040617162926.0079e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040617162926.0079e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1087508294.29729.195.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 20:29, Joe R. wrote: > At 09:22 PM 6/16/04 +0100, you wrote: > > > >I've put off asking about this in view of the discussion about what's > >on/off topic, but I need some help from Those Who Know These Things. > > > >My specific requirement is to put together a PC to run 22DISK, my > >DOS-only PAL/PROM programmer software, and the like. It will run DOS > >6.22 in a FAT16 partition (and probably WinXP in another partition > > > In that case, you might want to give this a try. > . He says that it's > pretty good. Let me know how it works for you. I don't recall Pete saying he needed to tweak an existing partition on a drive though - or is there some other justifcation for using that software? I've lost track of what the deal is with mixing DOS with modern versions of Windows. I'm sure the current versions a few years ago weren't too happy co-existing on the same drive (probably because both DOS and Windows of the time made assumptions about them being the sole OS on the drive. Windows certainly used to stomp all over the MBR which used to drive me nuts! :-) Currently I triple-boot the desktop PC between Linux, Windows 2k and DOS 6.22 - but I'm using SCSI disks, so Linux and Windows co-exist on the larger drive and DOS has a seperate drive all to itself. I just change the boot SCSI ID in the SCSI BIOS to boot from the DOS drive when I need to. Not sure if there's an equivalent if you're using IDE drives though. As an aside, I'm curious as to what (if any) equivalents to 22disk there are for Linux. Certainly it's probably a more viable platform if you want to have hardware fitted at strange addresses or outside the scope of the BIOS than DOS is. I have no idea what sort of control the kernel headers allow you over the floppy controller(s) though. Of course you probably have a good reason for using 22disk - either a) because it's there or b) because you have images in 22disk's format (which I believe is proprietary and undocumented, grr!) that you want to restore... cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jun 17 16:47:36 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087508855.29729.204.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 19:42, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I believe David is getting multiple (i.e. greater than 2) bursts of the > same messages. This is my case. I don't pretend to understand these things, but it's not a timeout in acknowedging emails sent to the list is it? e.g. (simplistic view) list sends message to you, you get the message but the turnaroud is so high that there's a timeout at the sending side before any ack gets back to it. So it keeps resending until it thinks the message has got through, and you keep getting multiple copies. Presumably such a failure point would lay between the client and the local mailserver though... Most ISPs seem to be drowning in a sea of spam these days and completely overloaded - at least they are over here. Unfortunately most of it comes from the US and so national or Europe-wide legislation won't do any good anyway :( Bring back the good old days of the 'net :-) cheers Jules From acme at gbronline.com Thu Jun 17 17:10:50 2004 From: acme at gbronline.com (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Nature of classiccmp (was Re: age limits for classic computers) References: <8929828.1087383715535.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <024e01c454b7$f5f2e0a0$d74f0945@thegoodw> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Thatcher" Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 7:01 AM [snip a bunch of stuff which made perfectly good sense] > The discussion here over the topic has wasted substantialy more bandwidth then the few emails that come here that don't need to. > > best regards, Steve Thatcher Hello Steve -- I'm not sure how long you have been a list member, but my experience with this list, over the past several years, is that once or twice each year certain topics arise pertaining to the nature of the list itself. These topics have included: What is on topic for this list? What is off-topic? How should the archives be organized? What's the *best* format for the email subject lines? What are the criteria for "For Sale" posts? Etc. These discussions have resulted in a number of changes to the list, including the cctalk/cctech split a couple of years back. As opposed to many other lists and Usenet groups, it seems to me that periodic self-redefinition is a fundamental characteristic of classiccmp, and I find the desire of the listmembers to continually improve the quality of this list very admirable. Will you please be patient while we go through this process again? It is part of what makes this list unique. Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 17 17:04:54 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <1087508855.29729.204.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1087508855.29729.204.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406172212.SAA07064@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Most ISPs seem to be drowning in a sea of spam these days and > completely overloaded - at least they are over here. I've always wondered, when I see such things. I can easily name a half-dozen simple technical measures that will _drastically_ cut the incoming spam load to a mailserver. They're all fairly well known, even. Yet ISPs refuse to implement them, usually citing the "but it might refuse legitimate mail!" mantra, apparently preferring to lose legitimate mail randomly and silently to overload than to lose legitimate mail obviously and controlledly to filters, a mindset I just don't get - especially since the "legitimate" mail that will be lost is all defective to at least some extent already (because such defects are what the filters test for). A good example is sleep-before-banner. It kills an awful lot of ratware dead, is difficult at best for them to adapt to, and won't kill anyone who bothers to pay attention to the minimum timeouts specified in RFCs 1123 and 2821. I've seen it said that as little as 15 seconds is effective (I use 90). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bert at brothom.nl Thu Jun 17 17:01:54 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Prestel (Was: Re: What is this??? - Update) References: <40D0B111.1828BA5E@brothom.nl> <200406161708.12817.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <40D214D2.3F4E38D0@brothom.nl> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 16 June 2004 15:44, Bert Thomas wrote: > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > > > > > new server but have not had time to do so. I'm assuming a brand new > > > server with new everything will fix this problem, but I'd be curious > > > to know if other people are experiencing the same thing. It started > > > doing this one day last year. > > > > > > This only happens with CC list traffic (it's the only list I'm on). > > > > I also get every message at least twice. I never took the effort to find > > out why. > > Are you subscribed to both cctalk and cctech? You shouldn't be. Yup, that would the problem. I was under the impression that they where seperate lists when I subscribed. Thanks! :-) Regards, Bert From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 17:20:34 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: Incoming Msg Message-ID: <200406172220.PAA11899@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Joe Remember what I said about there most likely being someone that has a virus. This would explain both the duplicates that many are seeing ( including me ) and the worm that you are seeing. Dwight >From: "Joe R." > >Hi All, > > I just got the message below from my ISP (Road Runner). It appears that >a message from the CC List contained Zafi.B worm. I've just spent TWO+ >days installing a new hard drive and reloading all my software after >getting some DoS piece of crap that I couldn't remove from the old HD. > > Joe > > > > >>Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 21:32:44 +0800 >>From: Classiccmp >>Subject: RE: Incoming Msg >>To: Rigdonj >>X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine >>X-Virus-Scan-Result: Repaired 33994 W32.Beagle.X@mm >>Original-recipient: rfc822;rigdonj@cfl.rr.com >> >> ALERT!!! >>Road Runner is currently dropping all .com, .exe and .pif files due to the >>negative affect on our network from the Zafi.B/W32.Erkez.B@mm virus. If >>you need to send or receive one of these files types, please make sure that >>the file is sent as a .zip or .gzip compressed file. Road Runner will >>resume accepting these file extensions as soon as possible, once the >>negative affect on our network is resolved. >> >>The following attachments were infected and have been repaired: >>No attachments are in this category. >> >>The following attachments were deleted due to an inability to clean them: >>1. Half_Live.scr: W32.Beagle.X@mm >> >>The Following attachments were not delivered due to inbound mail policy >>violations: >>No attachments are in this category. >> >> >>Road Runner does not contact the sender of the infected attachment(s). >> >>For more information on Road Runner's virus filtering initiative, visit our >>Help > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 17 16:24:23 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER In-Reply-To: <20040616202920.X26902@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 16, 4 08:41:59 pm Message-ID: > I don't dispute that Acorn machines are BETTER. and certainly more fun > But,... > the goal at that time (before I got there) was NOT to teach real > computing. It was to teach introductory programming in FORTRAN, > COBOL, RPG, etc. Compared to what's taught in the name of computing these days, that _is_ real computing... -tony From bobcaar at softhome.net Thu Jun 17 17:36:50 2004 From: bobcaar at softhome.net (Devon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: DOS application in WinXP Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617183650.00c09a40@pop.softhome.net> Don't forget bochs (http://bochs.sourceforge.net/). T.H.x. Devon -----------------Original Message-------------------------- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:17:13 -0400 From: chris Subject: DOS application in WinXP To: "Classic Computer" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I have an old legacy DOS application that I need to run on new Win XP hardware for the next few months. The problem is, I've been told it won't run under XP's DOS Shell. I'm curious what others have used as solutions to run non NT kernel friendly DOS applications in such an environment. I'm thinking about something like Virtual PC to run a regular DOS 6.2.2 install inside it, but I have no idea if that will actually work. Plus I need to do this on up to 5 machines and buying 5 copies of VPC at the new Microsoft pricing may break the bank (Connectix used to have an OS free version for something like $50... MS now charges $130 for the base price). It looks like VMWare is going to be the same problem with pricing. So does anyone have any other recommended solutions? I'd like this to be as transparent to the users as possible (they currently run the software in a DOS session under Win95, so the closest I can come to that functionality, the better). -chris From bobcaar at softhome.net Thu Jun 17 17:10:16 2004 From: bobcaar at softhome.net (Devon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:35 2005 Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617181016.00c09a40@pop.softhome.net> I believe there's an option in Opera's Preferences > Network...Synchronous DNS. Disabling this should allow other sessions to continue to function. I'd also check the privacy tab and remove any cookie restrictions. I've had a similar problem on a University network with flaky DNS servers. Seems the servers would be unreachable at the moment Opera tried to connect and it choked. DNS was usually reachable again by the time I ran nslookup. My solution was to set up a local caching DNS server. This was with Opera 6.05, and it didn't happen that often, but happened on any site. I've also seen no responce from ebay when attempting to "View sellers other items" and assumed it was their problem. Never had the problems with Opera 5.12, but, it wasn't used on that network for very long. T.H.x. Devon -----------------Original Message-------------------------- Message: 35 Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 16:08:18 +0000 From: Jules Richardson Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <1087488498.29729.127.camel@weka.localdomain> Content-Type: text/plain Knowing that there's a few EBay users on the list who also know how to fix modern software... :-) On the rare occasions that I do actually bother to search EBay for anything classic computer related I quite often find that hitting the search submit button just hangs, with the browser (Opera under Linux in my case) sitting there saying "Waiting for DNS confirmation of cookie domain(s)". If I open another browser window at this point and then try and go to any other site it'll just sit there with the same message. If I close the browser and come back later it's fine. Very frustrating. Anyone else see this or know what causes it? I've *only* seen it happen trying to do an Ebay search, never with any other website - but it's been this way for months. Whilst it's hung like this in the browser I can do DNS lookups from the shell fine, so it's not a DNS problem or a local configuration problem. I assume Opera happens to use shared DNS lookup code and for some reason something to do with EBay's search *sometimes* makes it hang. Presumably others might be able to shed some light on this, or at least confim / deny that they've seen similar problems with EBay UK from different platforms and browsers... cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 17 17:48:08 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... In-Reply-To: <10406170050.ZM12220@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <006f01c454bd$293f4160$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I can't think of a specific incident like that, but I do know > that our University uses a non-standard order of phases, and > that all the electrical contractors who come on site get a > lecture about it, for obvious reasons! What's a "standard order of phases"? I know if you inadvertently swap any two you potentially end up spinning the other way. For some things this matters and for other it doesn't. I can only assume I'm missing something obvious ... Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 17:56:00 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... Message-ID: <200406172256.PAA11917@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Most know about motor rotation but he was talking about delta versus Y. This can be quite different. Dwight >From: "Antonio Carlini" > >> I can't think of a specific incident like that, but I do know >> that our University uses a non-standard order of phases, and >> that all the electrical contractors who come on site get a >> lecture about it, for obvious reasons! > >What's a "standard order of phases"? I know if you inadvertently >swap any two you potentially end up spinning the other way. For >some things this matters and for other it doesn't. > >I can only assume I'm missing something obvious ... > >Antonio > >-- > >--------------- >Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org > > From spc at conman.org Thu Jun 17 17:56:48 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406172212.SAA07064@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 17, 2004 06:04:54 PM Message-ID: <20040617225648.2E70D10B2C89@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > Most ISPs seem to be drowning in a sea of spam these days and > > completely overloaded - at least they are over here. > > I've always wondered, when I see such things. I can easily name a > half-dozen simple technical measures that will _drastically_ cut the > incoming spam load to a mailserver. They're all fairly well known, > even. Yet ISPs refuse to implement them, usually citing the "but it > might refuse legitimate mail!" mantra, apparently preferring to lose > legitimate mail randomly and silently to overload than to lose > legitimate mail obviously and controlledly to filters, a mindset I just > don't get - especially since the "legitimate" mail that will be lost is > all defective to at least some extent already (because such defects are > what the filters test for). Well, a large web hosting company here in Boca Raton, Florida (where my girlfriend works as tech support) put in some new anti-spam measures---basically, if the reverse DNS doesn't exist, or it's in one of the black lists (don't know which ones they use) the mail is rejected outright. The switch over was last week. They're still backlogged with email support issues ("I'M LOOSING MAIL!!!!!!! WHATS WRONG WITH YOU IDIOTS?!?!?! MY FRIEND ISN'T A SPAMMER! AND YOU'RE REJECTING HIS/HER/ITS EMAIL!") to the point where *everybody* (up to managers) are on the phones and answering email. Granted, they handle a tremendous amount of email (it's a huge facility, hundreds of machines, thousands upon thousands of sites) so the strain of the mail servers is incredible (they had to shut them down for 12 hours last week, just to let things settle down). If I were running an ISP I might be hesitant to implement some of the measures, simply due to support issues alone. > A good example is sleep-before-banner. It kills an awful lot of > ratware dead, is difficult at best for them to adapt to, and won't kill > anyone who bothers to pay attention to the minimum timeouts specified > in RFCs 1123 and 2821. I've seen it said that as little as 15 seconds > is effective (I use 90). That, however, is a good idea. Might do that myself. -spc (Didn't hear of that one ... ) From david_comley at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 18:01:28 2004 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: ROCC R2840 systems In-Reply-To: <1087493375.29729.139.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040617230128.40175.qmail@web13526.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > maintained by ROCC (implying that the company's > still going somewhere). Yes, the company is still around although in quite a different form I believe from how it was in the 70s and 80s. One of the last things I looked at before I left was expansion into the Unix arena with yet more OEM hardware, but I don't know what happened to that particular line of development. Plexus hardware was involved at one point, and we had an 11/750 tucked away in a front office on which I gained my first Unix knowledge. The company went through a number of iterations - it was originally Redifon Computers (related to the Redifon you may have heard of in the communications and flight/systems simulation) business. After an aquisition by British Electric Traction (BET) we traded as Rediffusion Computers, and finally ROCC Computers. Last time I was in the UK I went back to Crawley to see if the factory was still there but it had been demolished and a new building stands in its place. Quite regrettable really. Regards, Dave __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 17 17:40:04 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: EBay UK search hanging In-Reply-To: <1087488498.29729.127.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <006d01c454bc$08aae9a0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Presumably others might be able to shed some light on this, > or at least confim / deny that they've seen similar problems > with EBay UK from different platforms and browsers... I've never seen this on Windows using either Netscape or IE (although I only use the latter for those sites that seem to insist on it and that I cannot do without). Firefox on Linux does not seem to hit this problem either. The only issue I have seen there is that sometimes it seems to ignore the fact that I have clicked on an ebay button or link. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 18:03:49 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... Message-ID: <200406172303.QAA11924@clulw009.amd.com> > > That, however, is a good idea. Might do that myself. > > -spc (Didn't hear of that one ... ) Hi One of the things that would knock out a lot right now would be to reject any mail that contained html pointers that had the recipients email address or name in it. This is almost always junk. Dwight From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 17 18:00:10 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007401c454be$d73d3a50$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I don't dispute you _can_ teach real computing using PCs, A lot depends on what you consider "real" computing. There are plenty of people who do just software (as there are plenty who do just hardware - those who changed their minds at one point or another do VLSI:-)). As far as the world of work seems to be concerned, it seems that industry mostly wants software engineers who do just software (and hardware engineers who do just hardware). Not much in the way of extra credits for straying into the other field. I've always worked in an environemnt where being close enough to the metal to cut yourself is normal, but I do realise that for 99.9% of software engineers, that's not reality. As for schools (in the UK sense - up to 18 years of age or so), the IT they teach is basically aimed at getting kids to be familiar with computers and what they can do. Word Processing, Spreadsheets, Presentations. Not much in the way of programming of any sort (except maybe a smattering of HTML - assuming you class that as programming). That's OK - 99.99% of people will not ever need more than that. Those who do want more than that can go and take Engineering as a GCSE option (GCSE= exam taken at 16) and build real stuff. > However, I can assure you this is not what happens in the UK. > Beebs were > used to teach computing (as in programming, interfacing (remember the > Beeb had a built in ADC and user port), etc). PCs are not. I left school just as the 380Z was appearing. A few of us were interested in computers and electronics and did some basic interfacing (lights control for the school play, that sort of thing) but that was completely outside of the school system. I'm just grateful they didn't try to stop us. I can just imagine Health & Safety now: no supervision, building mains-connected electronics, climbing scaffolding to attach the heavy rented lights to the ceiling bars ... right above where the audience is sitting. My son's will be starting GCSE next year - I'll have to keep an eye on him :-) > And FWIW, according to the current UK educational standards I > don't know > how to use a computer (!)... I *think* the Computer Science O-Level had just come in when I was doing those exams. It didn't look terribly interesting so noone bothered. I don't think I have any computing related qualification either. It's not something that bothers me too much as long as I'm having fun an being paid! Would the BCS accept you as a member? (Leaving aside the issue of whether anyone in the UK actually cares ...) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 17 18:53:24 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: <1087508294.29729.195.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 20:29, Joe R. wrote: > > At 09:22 PM 6/16/04 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > >I've put off asking about this in view of the discussion about what's > > >on/off topic, but I need some help from Those Who Know These Things. > > > > > >My specific requirement is to put together a PC to run 22DISK, my > > >DOS-only PAL/PROM programmer software, and the like. It will run DOS > > >6.22 in a FAT16 partition (and probably WinXP in another partition > > > > > > In that case, you might want to give this a try. > > . He says that it's > > pretty good. Let me know how it works for you. > > I don't recall Pete saying he needed to tweak an existing partition on a > drive though - or is there some other justifcation for using that > software? > > I've lost track of what the deal is with mixing DOS with modern versions > of Windows. I'm sure the current versions a few years ago weren't too > happy co-existing on the same drive (probably because both DOS and > Windows of the time made assumptions about them being the sole OS on the > drive. Windows certainly used to stomp all over the MBR which used to > drive me nuts! :-) > > Currently I triple-boot the desktop PC between Linux, Windows 2k and DOS > 6.22 - but I'm using SCSI disks, so Linux and Windows co-exist on the > larger drive and DOS has a seperate drive all to itself. I just change > the boot SCSI ID in the SCSI BIOS to boot from the DOS drive when I need > to. Not sure if there's an equivalent if you're using IDE drives though. > > As an aside, I'm curious as to what (if any) equivalents to 22disk there > are for Linux. Certainly it's probably a more viable platform if you > want to have hardware fitted at strange addresses or outside the scope > of the BIOS than DOS is. > > I have no idea what sort of control the kernel headers allow you over > the floppy controller(s) though. Of course you probably have a good > reason for using 22disk - either a) because it's there or b) because you > have images in 22disk's format (which I believe is proprietary and > undocumented, grr!) that you want to restore... I believe that you are confusing the capabilities of 22Disk with that of other software. The purpose of 22Disk is to permit reading, writing, and formatting CP/M disks on a DOS system. It does not create disk images nor read them. It is possible to recreate a system disk provided that you have the appropriate disk definition suitably modified, a binary file of the boot tracks, and an archive of the contents of the disk. It works, but is a bit laborious. - don > cheers > > Jules > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 18:57:43 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Lodging for VCF East 2.0 Message-ID: I've arranged lodging for VCF East. I've got a room block reserved at the Marriott Burlington. $69 a night if you pay in advance (no cancellation/refund) or $79 a night if you just reserve in advance. It's a pretty good deal, considering this is a 3-* facility with internet access in each room (I don't know if there's an extra charge for that, but probably). It's also within walking distance of Sun's campus. More information is here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/east/lodging.php I'm sure there are other cheapie hotels in the area but you'll have to find them yourself. A good place to start is to go to Yahoo! maps, put "Network Drive" in "Burlington, MA" into the search box, and then click on the links to find local hotels. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 18:58:02 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Lodging for VCF East 2.0 Message-ID: I've arranged lodging for VCF East. I've got a room block reserved at the Marriott Burlington. $69 a night if you pay in advance (no cancellation/refund) or $79 a night if you just reserve in advance. It's a pretty good deal, considering this is a 3-* facility with internet access in each room (I don't know if there's an extra charge for that, but probably). It's also within walking distance of Sun's campus. More information is here: http://www.vintage.org/2004/east/lodging.php I'm sure there are other cheapie hotels in the area but you'll have to find them yourself. A good place to start is to go to Yahoo! maps, put "Network Drive" in "Burlington, MA" into the search box, and then click on the links to find local hotels. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 19:23:09 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Do you want old Amiga manuals? Message-ID: <20040618002309.14242.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> I have a box of old Amiga manuals for free - you pay shipping. Probably over 20 pounds in a large box. I don't have a list of what's there, shout-out if you're interested. Manuals only, no software. STS __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 17 19:15:22 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "Re: O(ff)T? or O(n)T? 22DISK on a PC" (Jun 17, 21:38) References: <3.0.6.32.20040617162926.0079e100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <1087508294.29729.195.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10406180115.ZM13488@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17, 21:38, Jules Richardson wrote: > On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 20:29, Joe R. wrote: > > At 09:22 PM 6/16/04 +0100, you wrote: > > > > > In that case, you might want to give this a try. > > . > > I don't recall Pete saying he needed to tweak an existing partition on a > drive though - or is there some other justifcation for using that > software? The problem of having DOS and Windows coexist. It might be OK with XP, which certainly coexists happily with earlier versions of Windows; I don't know if that extends to DOS but I'm sure I'd find out quite quickly if I tried it :-) If I do I'll let the list know in case it helps anyone else who needs an environment for retro software/hardware. > Currently I triple-boot the desktop PC between Linux, Windows 2k and DOS > 6.22 - but I'm using SCSI disks, so Linux and Windows co-exist on the > larger drive and DOS has a seperate drive all to itself. I just change > the boot SCSI ID in the SCSI BIOS to boot from the DOS drive when I need > to. Not sure if there's an equivalent if you're using IDE drives though. Yes, it's called a DPDT switch ;-) Or you can just use a boot floppy. > As an aside, I'm curious as to what (if any) equivalents to 22disk there > are for Linux. Certainly it's probably a more viable platform if you > want to have hardware fitted at strange addresses or outside the scope > of the BIOS than DOS is. I've not seen anything and in fact last time I looked at Linux's support for non-PC formats, notably anything that started it's sector numbering at zero as %deity intended, it was sadly lacking (but that was quite a while ago) > I have no idea what sort of control the kernel headers allow you over > the floppy controller(s) though. Of course you probably have a good > reason for using 22disk - either a) because it's there That's the main reason. I'd use teledisk for disk images, as people seem to use that much more often. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Jun 17 19:21:56 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... In-Reply-To: "Antonio Carlini" "RE: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT..." (Jun 17, 23:48) References: <006f01c454bd$293f4160$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <10406180121.ZM13493@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17, 23:48, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I can't think of a specific incident like that, but I do know > > that our University uses a non-standard order of phases, and > > that all the electrical contractors who come on site get a > > lecture about it, for obvious reasons! > > What's a "standard order of phases"? I know if you inadvertently > swap any two you potentially end up spinning the other way. For > some things this matters and for other it doesn't. Exactly. Apparently one order is more common than the other, and we use the "uncommon" one, but I can't remember which is which. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 17 19:47:20 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Do you want old Amiga manuals? References: <20040618002309.14242.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009101c454cd$d027bab0$0500fea9@game> Are you in the US ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven" To: "cc" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 8:23 PM Subject: Do you want old Amiga manuals? > I have a box of old Amiga manuals for free - you pay > shipping. > > Probably over 20 pounds in a large box. > > I don't have a list of what's there, shout-out if > you're interested. Manuals only, no software. > > STS > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From esharpe at uswest.net Thu Jun 17 20:02:57 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! References: Message-ID: <001701c454cf$fe78a760$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> "So as long as he's around, it will stay.". exactly my point! never assume that any content is permanent ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:47 AM Subject: RE: Gordon Bell's Computer Structures: Readings and Examples book is online! > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > While Microsoft is almost certianly not going to go away any time soon, > > their web site does change quite frequently. They REMOVE significant amounts > > of content on a regular basis. If you see something on microsoft.com that > > you want/need for future reference, MAKE A COPY [not a link] of the page and > > related (e.g. graphic) files. > > Gordon Bell runs the website from which his work is available. So as long > as he's around, it will stay. I'm not sure what provisions he may have > made to ensure it stays there after he's gone. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 20:22:24 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Plus Passport Message-ID: I'm trying to find information and/or a controller card for the Plus Passport. Plus (Plus Development Corporation) is the same company that made the Hardcard. The Passport is a removeable drive chassis. You install the chassis into your PC and then the hard drive modules slide into it and connect to a connector on the back end. You boot the computer, do your work, then when you're done for the day you slide the hard drive out and take it with you. I've got the chassis but need the interface card and/or any drivers that it may have required. Has anyone ever heard of one of these things, or used one, or have what I need? Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 17 20:25:03 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <20040617225648.2E70D10B2C89@swift.conman.org> References: <20040617225648.2E70D10B2C89@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If I were running an ISP I might be hesitant to implement some of the > measures, simply due to support issues alone. Perhaps. It might help to spin it as something other than an anti-spam measure.... >> A good example is sleep-before-banner. [...] > That, however, is a good idea. Might do that myself. Another suggestion which is remarkably effective in my experience is to do an identd lookup, not for the usual reasons but rather because quite a number of the zombie-army machines are running toy identds to satisfy things like IRC servers, and they exhibit certain protocol errors. The one that's most effective as an anti-spam measure is probably to demand that the port numbers in the response match those in the query. (Another common error is to claim a UNIX userid containing characters that UNIX userids don't contain, but even now, over a decade after 1314 obsoleted 931, I still see a lot of otherwise legitimate hosts running 931-format daemons, claiming UNIX usernames that, from a 1314 perspective, contain whitespace.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 17 20:44:39 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... In-Reply-To: <200406172256.PAA11917@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406172256.PAA11917@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200406180201.WAA11073@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Most know about motor rotation but he was talking about delta versus > Y. This can be quite different. What _is_ the difference between delta and Y? A while ago we had a discussion that ended up revolving around what point is grounded ("neutral"). As far as I can see, delta and Y are basically equivalent, provided you don't try to refer anything to ground (or anything else beyond the three phases), and provided you don't overload anything. Am I missing something? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Jun 17 21:11:09 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights References: <20040616112343.A14348@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040617190854.00a5d650@pop-server.socal.rr.com> I was looking at a new stick of Corsair memory the other day, and it has a row of LEDs that show the activity level. No clue on exactly how it works, but blinkenlights return. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 17 21:36:10 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... Message-ID: <200406180236.TAA12027@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> Most know about motor rotation but he was talking about delta versus >> Y. This can be quite different. > >What _is_ the difference between delta and Y? A while ago we had a >discussion that ended up revolving around what point is grounded >("neutral"). As far as I can see, delta and Y are basically >equivalent, provided you don't try to refer anything to ground (or >anything else beyond the three phases), and provided you don't overload >anything. > >Am I missing something? They would be the same if one only connected the points of the three phase. The problem is one often ties 120V stuff between on of the legs and the neutral center of the Y. If one has three balanced 120V, everything is OK. If not, one will have all the voltage drop and bang! Dwight From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 17 21:41:00 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040617190854.00a5d650@pop-server.socal.rr.com> from "Mike Ford" at Jun 17, 2004 07:11:09 PM Message-ID: <200406180241.i5I2f0Mj017614@onyx.spiritone.com> > I was looking at a new stick of Corsair memory the other day, and it has a > row of LEDs that show the activity level. No clue on exactly how it works, > but blinkenlights return. Sounds like something for case moders. Just the thing for those clear plexiglass cases that seem to be popular at the moment. Now what they need are the lightbars that show CPU activity or disk activity. I like the JBOD boxes I have on my VMS server as each disk has LED's that show the load on each disk (the greater the load the more LED's lit). Zane From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 17 21:42:42 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040617190854.00a5d650@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: > I was looking at a new stick of Corsair memory the other day, and it has a > row of LEDs that show the activity level. No clue on exactly how it works, > but blinkenlights return. The "old" (mid 1990s) Bay routers have a large amount of blinkenlights inside. Pretty neat, but I don't know what they did. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 17 21:43:49 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... In-Reply-To: <200406180201.WAA11073@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > What _is_ the difference between delta and Y? A while ago we had a > discussion that ended up revolving around what point is grounded > ("neutral"). As far as I can see, delta and Y are basically > equivalent, provided you don't try to refer anything to ground (or > anything else beyond the three phases), and provided you don't overload > anything. > > Am I missing something? Smoke and sparks, for a start. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From ghldbrd at ccp.com Thu Jun 17 21:39:37 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (ghldbrd@ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Do you want old Amiga manuals? In-Reply-To: <20040618002309.14242.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040618002309.14242.qmail@web40901.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3924.65.123.179.125.1087526377.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Whatcha got there? If I have a lot of dupes I probably won't bite. email me offlist --- GHLDBRDatCCPdotCOM > I have a box of old Amiga manuals for free - you pay > shipping. > > Probably over 20 pounds in a large box. > > I don't have a list of what's there, shout-out if > you're interested. Manuals only, no software. > > STS > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 21:37:04 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Plus Passport In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617223704.00867ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I barely remember the Passport but I've seen lots of other brands of removeable drive sleds in the scrap places. All of the ones that I've seen have a standard connection on the back (ST-506, IDE, SCSI or what-ever). None of the ones that I've used needed any drivers and I can't see why one would. The system just sees a regular IDE or SCSI port. It doens't know of care if the drive is removable. The only thing that you >might< have to do is to change the BIOS setting for the hard drive. Joe At 06:22 PM 6/17/04 -0700, you wrote: > > >I'm trying to find information and/or a controller card for the Plus >Passport. Plus (Plus Development Corporation) is the same company that >made the Hardcard. > >The Passport is a removeable drive chassis. You install the chassis into >your PC and then the hard drive modules slide into it and connect to a >connector on the back end. You boot the computer, do your work, then when >you're done for the day you slide the hard drive out and take it with you. > >I've got the chassis but need the interface card and/or any drivers that >it may have required. > >Has anyone ever heard of one of these things, or used one, or have what I >need? > >Thanks! > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 17 21:56:28 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... In-Reply-To: <200406180201.WAA11073@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406172256.PAA11917@clulw009.amd.com> <200406172256.PAA11917@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040617225628.00869100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:44 PM 6/17/04 -0400, you wrote: > >> Most know about motor rotation but he was talking about delta versus >> Y. This can be quite different. > >What _is_ the difference between delta and Y? There's a BIG difference. In delta the windings are arranged like a triangle with the power lines connected at the apexs so there isn't a neutral leg and the hot legs all work against each other. In Y, the windings are arranged like a Y with the neutral at the junction and the power lines at the ends of the legs therefore neutral is connected to one end of each of the three windings. There's also a significant difference in the voltages between the hot legs. IIRC the hot leg of a Y is 240 VAC WRT to neutral and about 300 VAC between the legs (it's the sum of the voltages on each leg times the SINE of their phase angles). In Delta there doesn't need to be a neutral but if there is it's isolated from the hot legs so there's no voltage difference. Also the voltage between the hot legs is fixed at 220VAC. Delta only needs three lines to work effectively, Y needs four (three for power plus neutral). Ideally the neutral in Y connection should be at 0 VAC WRT to ground but if you get a heavy power draw on one leg of a Y then it can shift the neutral away from 0 volts. The point is that there's a big difference in the voltages between the legs and also from the legs to neutral or ground in the two systems. I may not be exactly right about the exact voltages but it doesn't matter since they vary from country to country and region to region but you get the idea. Joe A while ago we had a >discussion that ended up revolving around what point is grounded >("neutral"). As far as I can see, delta and Y are basically >equivalent, provided you don't try to refer anything to ground (or >anything else beyond the three phases), and provided you don't overload >anything. > >Am I missing something? > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 17 22:21:52 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Fun new stuff Message-ID: Here is a bit of good mainframe junk recently obtained: http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3803.front.jpg http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3803.open.jpg http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3420.front.jpg http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3420.open.jpg Basically, the big blue box is an IBM 3803 Tape Control Unit - the brain that connects 3420 Tape Units (one of three is pictured) to an S/370 thru a Bus & Tag channel. The 3803 and two of the 3420s are from 1972, and the third 3420 may be from 1980. The 3803 apparently works - it was in service quite recently - but all three of the 3420s have problems. Luckily, I obtained a full set of MLMs (service binders) for the units, plus some Bus & Tag cables. Note the 3803 has a full control panel. It better, as it has more electronics in it than most minis of the era. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Jun 17 22:33:25 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: E-Mail (Spam) filtering.... In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040617225628.00869100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Alas, I have yet to find anything that "really" works for me. I run a software consulting firm. On a fairly regular basis, I will get either a forward or an attachment of a spam (or virally infected) message from a legitimate client (potental, current or past) who will ask "How do I get rid of these...." Of course the person does not realize that they are being an idiot doing this, but if I lose the message, I lose business...... The best I have come up with so far: 1) Auto file (NOT delete) all suspicious messages in a specific folder [I use Outlook 2003] 2) Run my mail client from within a virtual machine [VMWare] with regular backups and undoable disks. Again my situation does NOT match that of most people..... David From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 17 22:31:14 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights References: Message-ID: <001a01c454e4$b5f11990$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 10:42 PM Subject: Re: Modern Blinkenlights > > I was looking at a new stick of Corsair memory the other day, and it has a > > row of LEDs that show the activity level. No clue on exactly how it works, > > but blinkenlights return. > > The "old" (mid 1990s) Bay routers have a large amount of blinkenlights > inside. Pretty neat, but I don't know what they did. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > I have a Bay Networks Instant Internet 100 router and it has 7 blinking lights on the front, each one does mean something but only a few actually blink constantly when in normal use. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 17 23:21:39 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jun 17, 4 09:25:03 pm" Message-ID: <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> > Another suggestion which is remarkably effective in my experience is to > do an identd lookup, not for the usual reasons but rather because quite > a number of the zombie-army machines are running toy identds to satisfy > things like IRC servers, and they exhibit certain protocol errors. "Some of us" are running spoofed identds for other internal reasons. What do you mean by "certain protocol errors"? -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism. ----------------- From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 23:29:09 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Plus Passport In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040617223704.00867ab0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Joe R. wrote: > I barely remember the Passport but I've seen lots of other brands of > removeable drive sleds in the scrap places. All of the ones that I've seen > have a standard connection on the back (ST-506, IDE, SCSI or what-ever). > None of the ones that I've used needed any drivers and I can't see why one > would. The system just sees a regular IDE or SCSI port. It doens't know of > care if the drive is removable. The only thing that you >might< have to do > is to change the BIOS setting for the hard drive. This one has an odd connector. It's a got one 34-pin ribbon coming off the back. Even if it was MFM, didn't those have a secondary 16(ish)-pin connector? This has a 1988 date on the mainboard. The actual connector on the inside where the drive plugs in is only 26-pin. Very odd. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Jun 17 23:41:09 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200406180241.i5I2f0Mj017614@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200406180241.i5I2f0Mj017614@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <40D27265.9030509@mdrconsult.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I was looking at a new stick of Corsair memory the other day, and it has a >>row of LEDs that show the activity level. No clue on exactly how it works, >>but blinkenlights return. > > > Sounds like something for case moders. Just the thing for those clear > plexiglass cases that seem to be popular at the moment. Now what they need > are the lightbars that show CPU activity or disk activity. I like the JBOD > boxes I have on my VMS server as each disk has LED's that show the load on > each disk (the greater the load the more LED's lit). Bah! I'll take the CPU-monitor LEDs on my BeBox any day! Of course watching a striped array at work in a pair of BA35x can be pretty hypnotic, too. :) Doc From vcf at siconic.com Thu Jun 17 23:39:58 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Fun new stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > Here is a bit of good mainframe junk recently obtained: > > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3803.front.jpg > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3803.open.jpg > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3420.front.jpg > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3420.open.jpg > > Basically, the big blue box is an IBM 3803 Tape Control Unit - the brain > that connects 3420 Tape Units (one of three is pictured) to an S/370 thru > a Bus & Tag channel. The 3803 and two of the 3420s are from 1972, and the > third 3420 may be from 1980. The 3803 apparently works - it was in service > quite recently - but all three of the 3420s have problems. Luckily, I > obtained a full set of MLMs (service binders) for the units, plus some Bus > & Tag cables. > > Note the 3803 has a full control panel. It better, as it has more > electronics in it than most minis of the era. I've got two 3420s and a 3803. I'm not sure what year they were manufactured (how can I tell?), or if they work. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 17 23:49:01 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Fun new stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I've got two 3420s and a 3803. I'm not sure what year they were > manufactured (how can I tell?), Read the dates that IBM stamps on all sorts of things. Even the frame should have a date. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From tosteve at yahoo.com Thu Jun 17 23:57:25 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Do you want old Amiga manuals? List included - USA In-Reply-To: <3924.65.123.179.125.1087526377.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Message-ID: <20040618045725.63945.qmail@web40907.mail.yahoo.com> More info: Located in Southern California USA 92656 List of manuals available for shipping, pick-up better: # Final Calc - by Softwood # Final Writer - releases 1 and 2 # Final Copy II - word processor # Final Data - Database manager # ARexx Users Reference Manual - v1.0 # Professional Page v4.0 - desktop publishing # CrossDOS v4.0 - MS-DOS file system for the Amiga # Scenery Animator I and II,v4.0 # Turbo Silver 3.0 User Manual # Sculpt 3DXL User's Manual # ANIMagic User's Guide # Deluxe Paint IV # ProVector v3 # Imagine 1.0 # Imagine 3.0 # Elan Performer # Brilliance v1.0, 2.0 # VistaPro 2.0 User Manual # VideoScape 3D User's Guide # ACAD Translator User Manual # Falcon F-16 Fighter Simulator game - with code-wheel! # DSS8+ - digital sound studio User Manual # DCTV v1.0 manual # GPFax fax software manual # Jurassic Park game # CrossDOS - MS-DOS file system for the Amiga No software - please take at least half a dozen! STS --- ghldbrd@ccp.com wrote: > Whatcha got there? If I have a lot of dupes I > probably won't bite. > > > > > I have a box of old Amiga manuals for free - you > pay > > shipping. > > > > Probably over 20 pounds in a large box. > > > > I don't have a list of what's there, shout-out if > > you're interested. Manuals only, no software. > > > > STS > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 18 00:25:58 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <40D27265.9030509@mdrconsult.com> References: <200406180241.i5I2f0Mj017614@onyx.spiritone.com> <40D27265.9030509@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040618052558.GD26500@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:41:09PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > Bah! I'll take the CPU-monitor LEDs on my BeBox any day! I've seen a pretty easy-to-build circuit to put one of those on a Linux box. I remember something about a simple resistor ladder network D-A and an LED bargraph chip from Radio Shack. The software just puts the load on a spare parallel port, so it's pretty low-impact. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Jun-2004 05:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.0 F (-61.2 C) Windchill -114.8 F (-81.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.9 kts Grid 087 Barometer 681.3 mb (10575. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From drb at msu.edu Thu Jun 17 10:53:56 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Resend: TSZ07, "5F MOTOR FAULT" Message-ID: <200406171553.i5HFruvR016314@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Pardon the nag. If anyone has any clues on working on these drives, or thoughts about someone who can fix them (cost?) would be greatly appreciated. Is this drive a rebadged F-880? Dennis Boone ------- Forwarded Message To: cctech@classiccmp.org From: Dennis Boone Subject: TSZ07, "5F MOTOR FAULT" Reply-to: drb@msu.edu Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 18:32:08 -0400 Sender: drb@yagi.h-net.msu.edu Dear all, I just obtained a TSZ07, and of course promptly tried to load a tape. The drive blows for a while, rotating the front hub, routinely seems to get the tape about halfway through the serpentine path, then emits an error message "5F MOTOR FAULT". The rear hub seems to be moving at least some, the front hub works the way I remember these units working. (Ok, _my_ memories are of 1600bpi Cipher-badged units from my Prime days.) Any suggestions, or am I screwed? Thanks, Dennis Boone ------- End of Forwarded Message From ernestls at comcast.net Thu Jun 17 16:00:48 2004 From: ernestls at comcast.net (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging In-Reply-To: <200406171807.TAA13673@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200406171807.TAA13673@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1087506048.5206.22.camel@x1-6-00-60-08-a5-df-1f> On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 11:07, Stan Barr wrote: > Hi, > > Jules Richardson said: > > > > > Knowing that there's a few EBay users on the list who also know how to > > fix modern software... :-) > > > > On the rare occasions that I do actually bother to search EBay for > > anything classic computer related I quite often find that hitting the > > search submit button just hangs, with the browser (Opera under Linux in > > my case) sitting there saying "Waiting for DNS confirmation of cookie > > domain(s)". > > [snip] > > > Presumably others might be able to shed some light on this, or at least > > confim / deny that they've seen similar problems with EBay UK from > > different platforms and browsers... > > I use Opera and Linux and I've not noted this particular problem. > > It does sometimes hang when fetching pics from thumbs.ebaystatic.com. > Stopping the download displays the page minus the thumbnails, so all > is not lost. > > No problems noted with iCab on MacOs 8.6. Have you tried Konqueror, or Mozilla? Why do you use Opera? I just loaded Suse 9.1, which uses KDE 3.2, and I am extremely pleased with the whole distribution. I use Evolution 1.4 as my email client, rather than KMail, and Open Office. This new Suse distro has everything that I need now, except that I can't get my Linksys USB Wireless adapter to work on it yet but that is the fault of Linksys rather than Suse (it's a driver problem.) Which GUI do you use? I tried Gnome but KDE is better in every way IMHO. E. http://www.apple2clones.com From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Thu Jun 17 16:44:37 2004 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> References: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040617174349.02bd6478@mail.n.ml.org> Eastern Coast (NY, USA) is GMT-0500 -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:44 PM 6/17/2004, you wrote: >David V. Corbin wrote: >>I got a major burst of posts 04:40-04:42 [Eastern US] duplicating most of >>the days transmissions.... > >Is Eastern US GMT-0400? > >If so, that corresponds with a moderation time for cctech (finishing at >0942 GMT+0100), when 19 posts were sent to cctech. > >This just provides further evidence for my assertion that you are >subscribed to both list views. > >-- >Paul ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From gtulloch at shaw.ca Thu Jun 17 14:41:24 2004 From: gtulloch at shaw.ca (Gordon Tulloch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic Message-ID: <788bc178f986.78f986788bc1@shaw.ca> Hello all: I recently acquired a pair of Vector Graphic MZ systems - I've always had a fondness for Vectors since I had a chance to play with a hard drive equipped version in the early 90s when I was a consultant transitioning a company from the Vectors to PCs. One of the MZs worked very well, one worked not so well. To appease the wife, I sold the good one and am now looking to get the other one up and running. The issue seems to be minor, the Flashwriter II that's in the box is throwing up garbage on the "terminal" and not interpreting keystrokes properly. Anyone familiar with these puppies who might be able to give me some pointers? I've noticed a real dearth of info online for these boxes so I'll be putting a site up to start gathering info. If there's any lurkers out there playing with Vectors, send me a note, I'd love to compare notes. Thanks! Regards, Gord From paulrsm at buckeye-express.com Thu Jun 17 22:13:11 2004 From: paulrsm at buckeye-express.com (Paul R. Santa-Maria) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 Message-ID: <40D25DC7.920EE899@buckeye-express.com> If you need manuals for your SuperPET then I have the following: SuperPET... Waterloo BASIC (2) System Overview (2) Waterloo 6809 Assembler Waterloo microFORTRAN (2) Waterloo microPASCAL (2) Waterloo microCOBOL Waterloo microBASIC Waterloo microAPL The first one is published by WATFAC and the rest are published by SAMS. -- Paul Monroe, Michigan USA From cfostier00 at versateladsl.be Thu Jun 17 22:41:20 2004 From: cfostier00 at versateladsl.be (Claudy FOSTIER) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: MPF-1B manuals Message-ID: <001c01c454e6$1efb1840$3130ae52@v1z0n9> Hello have you a copy of the mpf-1b manuals now? Is it possible to receive a copy of your copy? Thank you and best regards. Fostier Claudy. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Jun 18 01:12:48 2004 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Vector Graphic In-Reply-To: <788bc178f986.78f986788bc1@shaw.ca> References: <788bc178f986.78f986788bc1@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.2.20040617231216.01e30dd0@mail.zipcon.net> I'll ask my roommate, he has a couple of vector graphic systems, one with harddrive and may have some documentation for them. At 12:41 PM 6/17/2004, you wrote: >Hello all: > >I recently acquired a pair of Vector Graphic MZ systems - I've always had >a fondness for Vectors since I had a chance to play with a hard drive >equipped version in the early 90s when I was a consultant transitioning a >company from the Vectors to PCs. > >One of the MZs worked very well, one worked not so well. To appease the >wife, I sold the good one and am now looking to get the other one up and >running. The issue seems to be minor, the Flashwriter II that's in the box >is throwing up garbage on the "terminal" and not interpreting keystrokes >properly. Anyone familiar with these puppies who might be able to give me >some pointers? > >I've noticed a real dearth of info online for these boxes so I'll be >putting a site up to start gathering info. If there's any lurkers out >there playing with Vectors, send me a note, I'd love to compare notes. > >Thanks! > >Regards, > Gord From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 00:25:36 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> References: <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200406180605.CAA22603@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Another suggestion which is remarkably effective in my experience is >> to do an identd lookup, not for the usual reasons but rather because >> quite a number of the zombie-army machines are running toy identds >> to satisfy things like IRC servers, and they exhibit certain >> protocol errors. > "Some of us" are running spoofed identds for other internal reasons. > What do you mean by "certain protocol errors"? I've noticed five major classes of errors. Timeout when connecting to port 113 This usually indicates a packet filter (mis)configured by someone confused enough to think that silently dropping SYNs to port 113 is somehow preferable to returning RSTs for them. This ought to correlate positively with spammishness on grounds of general clue lack, but it's so depressingly common that I suspect any such correlation would be weak enough to be difficult to tell from the noise. I don't refuse on this one; I list it here largely for completeness. +OK I occasionally see what superficially appears to be a POP daemon running on port 113. I've never seen it on anything that didn't look like a dialup or other dynamic IP box with no business sending mail to the net at large. Port number mismatch This is the big one. This refers to the response containing port numbers other than the ones in the query, as when I send "1397,25" and get back "4900, 6667 : USERID : UNIX : yarjo" (this is a real example, taken from a recent mailer log). This surprised me; I put the code in on general "verify all input" grounds and was astonished to see it not only trip, but trip fairly commonly. Bogus UNIX username This is a "USERID:UNIX:" response where the supposed username contains a character not present in UNIX usernames. The above response is an example, since " yarjo" is not a valid UNIX username. (Well, there probably is some variant out there that accepts it; '\n', ':', and '\0' may be the only characters that _cannot_ appear - but a username with a space, or a tilde, or suchlike, causes enough things to break that I don't mind considering it invalid.) Doesn't exist This is an "ERROR:NO-USER" response. This should never happen; it indicates either a totally busted identd, a NATting gateway whose admin is crazy enough to run an identd without making sure it's a NAT-aware identd, or an 0wn3d machine with a rootkit good enough to hide the outgoing connection from whatever interface identd uses. The third one I _definitely_ want to refuse mail from, and the other two I'm willing to call broken enough to refuse too. (Hm, actually, it could also be a portscanner connection that was reset before the identd response comes in; that too I have no interest in accepting anything from.) Most of the trips of the "bogus UNIX" test are identds that claim UNIX usernames beginning with a space. This was perfectly valid under RFC931 (which specified that whitespace was ignored even at the beginning of a username), but with 1314 having obsoleted 931 over a decade ago, I am quite willing to consider it broken today. If you use that one you may want to ignore leading whitespace. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 01:06:46 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040617174349.02bd6478@mail.n.ml.org> References: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> <6.1.0.6.2.20040617174349.02bd6478@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <200406180608.CAA22693@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Eastern Coast (NY, USA) is GMT-0500 Depends on the time of year. Right now, for example, Eastern time is -0400; it's in the winter that it's -0500. (At least in Canada, but as I understand it the only difference between Canadian and US Eastern time is exactly when they shift to and from summer time, and even that I don't think differs much these days.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 18 01:36:49 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406180605.CAA22603@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jun 18, 4 01:25:36 am" Message-ID: <200406180636.XAA08544@floodgap.com> > > "Some of us" are running spoofed identds for other internal reasons. > > What do you mean by "certain protocol errors"? > > I've noticed five major classes of errors. [...] > Port number mismatch > This is the big one. This refers to the response containing > port numbers other than the ones in the query, as when I send > "1397,25" and get back "4900, 6667 : USERID : UNIX : yarjo" [...] > Bogus UNIX username > This is a "USERID:UNIX:" response where the supposed username > contains a character not present in UNIX usernames. [...] > Most of the trips of the "bogus UNIX" test are identds that claim UNIX > usernames beginning with a space. This was perfectly valid under > RFC931 (which specified that whitespace was ignored even at the > beginning of a username), but with 1314 having obsoleted 931 over a > decade ago, I am quite willing to consider it broken today. If you use > that one you may want to ignore leading whitespace. ITYM 1413, which amusingly offers the same type of response as valid (despite condemning it in other places in the document). "The information returned is that associated with the fully specified TCP connection identified by , , , , where and are the local and foreign IP addresses of the querying connection -- i.e., the TCP connection to the Identification Protocol Server. ( and are taken from the query.) For example: 6193, 23 : USERID : UNIX : stjohns 6195, 23 : ERROR : NO-USER " -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Immigration is the sincerest form of flattery. -- Jack Paar ---------------- From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 01:27:57 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:36 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406180636.XAA08544@floodgap.com> References: <200406180636.XAA08544@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200406180631.CAA22833@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...] but with 1314 having obsoleted 931 [... > ITYM 1413, Oops. YT correctly. :-/ > which amusingly offers the same type of response as valid (despite > condemning it in other places in the document). Well, as an example. Examples generally do not trump explicit wording, especially when emphasized as strongly as that particular point is. Still, I wish they'd deleted that whitespace from the example. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Jun 18 02:08:09 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: "Teo Zenios" "Re: Modern Blinkenlights" (Jun 17, 23:31) References: <001a01c454e4$b5f11990$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <10406180808.ZM13862@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 17, 23:31, Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "William Donzelli" > > The "old" (mid 1990s) Bay routers have a large amount of blinkenlights > > inside. Pretty neat, but I don't know what they did. > > I have a Bay Networks Instant Internet 100 router and it has 7 blinking > lights on the front, each one does mean something but only a few actually > blink constantly when in normal use. I have a Newbridge Orange Ridge 12-port 10/100 switch in the office, which I keep because each port has 5 LEDs: Tx, Rx, Link, Collision, 100Mb/s. It also has some status LEDs and a set for its ATM port. It looks like Christmas every day :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 18 02:29:40 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040617174349.02bd6478@mail.n.ml.org> References: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> <6.1.0.6.2.20040617174349.02bd6478@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <20040618072940.GA5056@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 05:44:37PM -0400, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > Eastern Coast (NY, USA) is GMT-0500 > -John Boffemmyer IV In wintertime, yes. It's EDT now, which is GMT-4. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Jun-2004 07:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.0 F (-61.8 C) Windchill -118.1 F (-83.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 11.1 kts Grid 085 Barometer 680.9 mb (10591. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Jun 18 03:35:17 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> One of the most promising sounding Anti-SPAM and Anti-virus measures I've heard of recently (can't remember where from though) is Greylisting - http://greylisting.org/ http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/whitepaper.html basically, when somebody new connects to your mail server, send them a 451 4.7.1 Please try again later but note the details. Real mailservers will indeed come back a short time later, at which point the mail is allowed through, and that mailserver's IP and email addresses are marked good. Most spam sending software and viri give up, or wait too long before coming back. The results look impressive: http://www.phys.ualberta.ca/~jmack/grey/ I haven't implemented it myself yet.. I'm currently using several blacklisting services on the mail server, which currently cuts out most things trying to get in directly, but the majority of my spam though comes in through several external ISP POP3 accounts that I maintain for historical reasons. I manage those at client-side (spamnix in Eudora, basically SpamAssassin wrapped in a plugin). Given the complete lack of originating IP or envelope information when fetching from a remote POP3 mailbox, I think I'm probably limited to continuing to content-filter these, which is a pain as it takes forever to download the mail, unless anybody knows any different? Rob From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 18 03:18:49 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:00:48 PDT." <1087506048.5206.22.camel@x1-6-00-60-08-a5-df-1f> Message-ID: <200406180818.JAA18710@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Ernest said: [I don't want to clutter the list up with Linux discussions, so I'll be brief] > On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 11:07, Stan Barr wrote: > > I use Opera and Linux and I've not noted this particular problem. > Have you tried Konqueror, or Mozilla? Why do you use Opera? Opera is quicker. > Which GUI do you use? I tried Gnome but KDE is better in every way IMHO. Don't use Gnome or KDE, they slow this old machine* down too much, I use Afterstep on bare X. * Old reliable Dell OptiPlex GXPro 200MHz, running non-stop 24x7 since late 1999. Reboots are for hardware upgrades :-) -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 18 05:11:18 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > One of the most promising sounding Anti-SPAM and Anti-virus measures I've > heard of recently (can't remember where from though) is Greylisting - > > http://greylisting.org/ > http://projects.puremagic.com/greylisting/whitepaper.html > > basically, when somebody new connects to your mail server, send them a > > 451 4.7.1 Please try again later > > but note the details. Real mailservers will indeed come back a short time > later, at which point the mail is allowed through, and that mailserver's IP > and email addresses are marked good. Most spam sending software and viri > give up, or wait too long before coming back. The results look impressive: > http://www.phys.ualberta.ca/~jmack/grey/ Sure, until the spammers and virus writers catch on. Look, the path of least resistance to this problem is as follows: 1) Lobby local representatives to pass laws allowing the hunting down and physical termination of spammers and virus writers 2) Include in those laws the ability to have public exhibitions of whipping and/or humiliation for people who actually answer to spam or buy products that they learned of through spam 3) Get said laws passed 4) Open season Until these two distinct classes of people (spammers and spammees) are entirely eliminated from the gene pool, we will continue to suffer this scourge. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 05:27:21 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406172303.QAA11924@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406172303.QAA11924@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1087554441.31058.6.camel@weka.localdomain> On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 23:03, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > > > That, however, is a good idea. Might do that myself. > > > > -spc (Didn't hear of that one ... ) > > Hi > One of the things that would knock out a lot right now > would be to reject any mail that contained html pointers > that had the recipients email address or name in it. My recent theory was that we need two Internets - one for people using Windows, and one for everyone else :-) At least the 'everyone else' one could be cleared of anything containing an exe, scr or pif attachment, and hopefully all these damn spam messages about cheap Windows software would disappear too... Of course we'd still be cursed with spam about viagra, plus all the other drugs with US names where I don't even have a clue what they are, let alone have a need for them :-) cheers Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 05:51:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <1087555909.31058.25.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 08:35, Rob O'Donnell wrote: > One of the most promising sounding Anti-SPAM and Anti-virus measures I've > heard of recently (can't remember where from though) is Greylisting - > > http://greylisting.org/ Going from memory, we have a Majordomo-based mailing list on a windows machine for the museum email list, using whatever Microsoft's email server software is called these days. It wouldn't cope with resending to people using greylisting, and so messages from the mailing list never got delivered. > I haven't implemented it myself yet.. I'm currently using several > blacklisting services on the mail server, I occasionally hit problems because I run a local mailserver at home, pulling mail down from a couple of yahoo accounts. My IP address changes once every 6 months or so, but it is still technically a dynamic address, which means very occasionally I find I can't send mail to someone because their ISP barfs at my IP address. Of course the reason I set up a local mailserver in the first place was because the amount of spam would fill up yahoo mail quotas if mail wasn't checked / downloaded at something less than an 8 hour limit. As Sellam says, the only cure is a change in the law. I don't think there is a way of fixing the technology to work because there are simply too many different combinations of platforms and software out there. What works for one setup might be totally incompatible with another. (I was grumbling yesterday because of the music industry complaining about pirate music downloads, whilst the big online music vendors all seem to assume that you have an ipod or access to windows media player - I hope the spam issue doesn't go the same way, with a half-assed solution that just excludes a lot of people) cheers Jules From charlesb at otcgaming.net Fri Jun 18 06:31:24 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... References: <40D1E696.7060806@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <00b701c4552b$70a20ec0$0100a8c0@thunder> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 7:44 PM Subject: Re: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... > David V. Corbin wrote: > > I got a major burst of posts 04:40-04:42 [Eastern US] duplicating most of > > the days transmissions.... > > Is Eastern US GMT-0400? > > If so, that corresponds with a moderation time for cctech (finishing at > 0942 GMT+0100), when 19 posts were sent to cctech. > > This just provides further evidence for my assertion that you are > subscribed to both list views. GMT -4 (UK Time -5) As i said, i'm subscribed to both lists, but i only ever seedupes in the talk list, and those are dupes of mails that was already sent to "talk".i never receive dupes (so far) in the tech list. Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 18 07:50:08 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040617161714.009a6de0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 17, 04 04:17:14 pm Message-ID: <200406181250.IAA18189@wordstock.com> And thusly Joe R. spake: > > At 08:28 PM 6/16/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > >On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 05:41:19PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >> > > >> > I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being > >> > developed today. > >> > > >> > For example: > >> > > >> > - IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, > >> > >> Got one of those (HDD-64 IDE interface for the C-64). I use mine > >> with a 20MB HP Kittyhawk drive (1.3"). > > > >Links please. Just mere mention of its existence does my resource > >"directory" no good ;( > > http://www.ide64.org Also http://wings.webhop.org is the website for Wings, an OS for a C64 equipped with a SuperCPU. It is also the place to buy IDE64s, etc in North America. Cheers, Bryan Pope From melamy at earthlink.net Fri Jun 18 08:00:29 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: need hex prom code or source for Intel MDS-800 monitor Message-ID: <24495920.1087563630393.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> I have finally had time to start bringing up my Northstar Horizon system. What I was hoping was that someone had the hex prom code or source for the Intel monitor in the MDS-800. In past time, I actually had ISIS-II running on a Northstar system and it requires a Intel style monitor program at 0f800H. Once I get access to my 8" disks again, I will be able to supply modified source that would allow someone else to do the same thing. best regards, Steve Thatcher From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 18 09:01:08 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) Message-ID: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> Those of you on cbm-hackers will have already seen this message. Some preamble: Commodore, just yesterday (see www.commodoreworld.com) was reintroduced by trademark holder Tulip as an electronics subsidiary. Most of their current and envisioned product line is fairly unimpressive me-too products including an iPod/iTunes ripoff and they're actually trying to resell the old Epyx Commodore 64 titles to which they have acquired the rights. One thing that has not endeared Tulip to the Commodore community was an attempt to grind down on trademark enforcement. First it was the Commodore name and logo, and then the system ROMs, and there is also some argument over the IP of the 64 itself. Apparently a collabourator called Ironstone is developing a new 64 of their own, separate from the C-1 being created by Jeri Ellsworth, which is nearing completion. There is worry that Ironstone/Tulip will clamp down on new hardware development as a result. What appears below is a note about the new policies by Ruud Baltissen, who was one of the speakers at Commodore's "relaunch" yesterday and a long time member of the Commodore community who was asked to speak at their launch likely as an attempt to bridge the (at the moment) contentious gulf between the classic community and the new corporate environment. Anyone have any comments? This seems like the C64 community is going to get stomped on. (None of this affects the Amiga, AFAIK, which is not owned by Tulip.) ----- Forwarded message from Baltissen, GJPAA ----- From: "Baltissen, GJPAA (Ruud)" <--> To: "'cbm-hackers@..'" Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:29:19 +0200 Subject: CommodoreWorld Hallo allemaal, As some of you already know, yesterday the new Commodore presented itself to the world. I was invited as well to speak to the community as one of the users. I felt awfull when on stage :( Most important thing: I have spoken with the top of Tulip and Commodore, four men. One thing we have discussed are the sites like FUNET and ARNOLD, sites that archive ROMs and games. Regarding the games, utilities and other non-system-ROMs they were clear: they considered that as there legal property and as they wanted to make money with it, they would protect these rights. And with reason, see later. Personal point of view: I understand completely and accept it. (But I cannot say I like it). The system-ROMs are another matter. They realise that the C= community is as it is nowadays, thanks to you guys and the information that is available worldwide. Three of the four agree that there has to be made an arrangement or whatever where both parties, Commodore and we developers, could live with. I spoke with the fourth guy, one of the original Tulip-guys and merely money orientated, and showed him things the community had developed on their own the last ten years: Retro Replay, X1541, IDE64, 64HDD and.... Marko's CD. He was impressed and would think things over. But don't blame him as a person, he is a nice guy IMHO, but one that has to run a bussines. A small problem is that they want to sell or include an emulator with one of their products. But they realise that the community as it is now probably is not waiting for their emulator as there are some very good ones available for free. With this emulator they have a reason to forbid publishing systemROMs as wel but..... I spoke with Darren Melbourne, the man behind Ironstone, as well. Ironstone is responsible for the C64-joystick C= will start to sell around october/november. I, of course, asked him about the hardware. The bad news: it will a single chip ASIC. I only forgot to ask him if the ROM with OS and games were inside the ASIC or apart. The good news: I know about who is behind the development of this C64 and therefor we can expect quite some suprises: - The new C64 will have at least 265 colours - It will have higher resolutions - It will have two SID's onboard - The ASIC runs on 27 MHz. I hardly can imagine it needs 27 cycles to emulate one of the original C64. - I asked Darren if there are plans to produce a big C64 based on this print. So he revealed that, although it resembles a joystick, all connections of the normal ports are available in the form of pads. So one could solder his own expansionport, userport or whatever to this stick. - Regarding the extra features: they want to publish the memorymap and other technical details so programmers are able to develop new games etc. for this new C64. The disclaimer: The above info is given by me as it was told me. I'm only human and I could have understood some things wrong. Etc., etc., etc. About the person: Darren doesn't mind to tell me who it is but the person self does because of a personal reason. This C64-joystick is the reason they want to protect their legal rights about the games. But they also want to stimulate the old community to develop programs for this new C64, the community that has thrived on the availability of ROMs and other information. And you won't be making friends by taking away that where those friends are thriving on :) Another point is the makers of hardware like Maurice Randall but also people like Markus Brenner and the Czechs who produce the IDE64. Particulary those who produce hardware that is to be connected to the userport or expansionport. I didn't realise it but these ports are intellectual properties of Commodore as well. So actually anyone building hardware for these ports has to pay C= a fee as well. Regarding Maurice, he bought the stuff from CMD and Tulip/Commodore doesn't know what agreement CMD had with the original C=. Regarding others: three of the four agreed that as long as no big money is involved, they leave the situation as it is. I mentioned the above in my speach and the fourth guy told me he started to realise that actions against these people would loose them a lot of sympathy of the old community as well. The fact is: Commodore/Tulip thrives on the fact that the name Commodore is know worlwide and on the sympathy created (merely) by the C64. So they want to avoid any action that will loose this precious sympathy. But they have a bussiness to run so some things are unavoidable. So: - sites publishing games and related software owned by Commodore have to remove it. - sites publishing kernals/systemROMs are tolerated for the moment [1]. - producers of hardware are tolerated as long as there is not really big money involved for the moment [1]. Rereading the above I may sound a bit pro-Tulip but it is a fact that they have the law on their side. Yesterday I used this example: imagine you inherit a fruitgarden with apples and pears, which has been left alone for ten years. Because nobody cared, the neighbouhood got used to pick their own fruit every autumn. You as the new owner, are only interested in the apples as the pears have no real commercial value for you. So you can leave them hanging to rot or.... tell the neighbourhood generously to help themself with the pears as you don't have a really need for them for the moment [1]. As you have the law on your side, most people will accept the situation. But what are you going to do with people that still pick (thus steal) your apples as well? [1] notice the "for the moment". Lets face it, things can change in the future. But I have been there and I left with a good feeling. And now you can shoot..... -- ___ / __|__ / / |_/ Groetjes, Ruud \ \__|_\ \___| URL: Ruud.C64.org =====DISCLAIMER================================================================= De informatie in dit e-mailbericht is vertrouwelijk en uitsluitend bestemd voor de geadresseerde. Wanneer u dit bericht per abuis ontvangt, verzoeken wij u contact op te nemen met de afzender per kerende e-mail. Verder verzoeken wij u in dat geval dit e-mailbericht te vernietigen en de inhoud ervan aan niemand openbaar te maken. Wij aanvaarden geen aansprakelijkheid voor onjuiste, onvolledige dan wel ontijdige overbrenging van de inhoud van een verzonden e-mailbericht, noch voor daarbij overgebrachte virussen. The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It may be read, copied and used only by the intended recipient. If you have received it in error, please contact the sender immediately by return e-mail; please delete in this case the e-mail and do not disclose its contents to any person. We don't accept liability for any errors, omissions, delays of receipt or viruses in the contents of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. Message was sent through the cbm-hackers mailing list ----- End of forwarded message from Baltissen, GJPAA ----- -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The world only beats a path to your door when you're in the bathroom. ------ From thompson at new.rr.com Fri Jun 18 08:46:51 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Resend: TSZ07, "5F MOTOR FAULT" In-Reply-To: <200406171553.i5HFruvR016314@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200406171553.i5HFruvR016314@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Dennis Boone wrote: > Pardon the nag. If anyone has any clues on working on these drives, > or thoughts about someone who can fix them (cost?) would be greatly > appreciated. > > Is this drive a rebadged F-880? > > Dennis Boone It ends up I have a TSZ07 technical manual. I will glance through and see if it says anything helpful. I wonder if there would be a benefit to add this manual to the scanned DEC docs site... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 09:41:01 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> References: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1087569661.31058.88.camel@weka.localdomain> > Rereading the above I may sound a bit pro-Tulip but it is a fact that they > have the law on their side. Yesterday I used this example: imagine you > inherit a fruitgarden with apples and pears, which has been left alone for > ten years. Because nobody cared, the neighbouhood got used to pick their own > fruit every autumn. > You as the new owner, are only interested in the apples as the pears have no > real commercial value for you. So you can leave them hanging to rot or.... > tell the neighbourhood generously to help themself with the pears as you > don't have a really need for them for the moment [1]. > As you have the law on your side, most people will accept the situation. But > what are you going to do with people that still pick (thus steal) your > apples as well? I totally love that. Me, I'd leave the fruitgarden for the community because I'd say they have more claim to it than I do. Ain't the world great? cheers, Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 18 10:05:00 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) References: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> <1087569661.31058.88.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <007101c45545$a093c640$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 10:41 AM Subject: Re: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) > > Rereading the above I may sound a bit pro-Tulip but it is a fact that they > > have the law on their side. Yesterday I used this example: imagine you > > inherit a fruitgarden with apples and pears, which has been left alone for > > ten years. Because nobody cared, the neighbouhood got used to pick their own > > fruit every autumn. > > You as the new owner, are only interested in the apples as the pears have no > > real commercial value for you. So you can leave them hanging to rot or.... > > tell the neighbourhood generously to help themself with the pears as you > > don't have a really need for them for the moment [1]. > > As you have the law on your side, most people will accept the situation. But > > what are you going to do with people that still pick (thus steal) your > > apples as well? > > I totally love that. Me, I'd leave the fruitgarden for the community > because I'd say they have more claim to it than I do. > > Ain't the world great? > > cheers, > > Jules > > Well these guys didn't inherit a fruitgarden, they purchased it at a sheriffs sale for next to nothing with the intent of milking it for every apple and pear it can produce. Its like somebody abandoned an apartment complex for a decade and then somebody pays the last owner (who never even seen the place or knew they owned it) a couple bucks then shows up and starts charging people rent. If the people wanted to pay rent in the first place they would have stayed at a complex that was being taken care of. While few people will break into your house to steal from you, quite a few will wander in to see what's around if the place was abandoned for a decade because its not stealing anymore in their eyes. If you cared about the community you would have left things the way they are, sold existing equipment and games, or released some c64 hardware upgrades for a nominal fee (the x1541 cable I have was well worth the money). From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 18 10:25:16 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware References: Message-ID: <00a801c45548$75bb9350$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" ; "Classic Computers Mailing List" ; "Bay Area Computer Collector List" Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 8:41 PM Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware > > I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being > developed today. > > For example: > > - IDE or CF interfaces for the Apple ][ and other 8-bits, > - IDE HD interfaces for minis like Bob Shannon's for the HP1000, etc. > - Vince's M452X and W076X PDP-8 replacement boards > - Vince Briel's Replica-1 > - Catweasel (I count this as "neo-retro" because it's useful to us) > - Bob Armstrong's SBC6120 > - etc. > > So basically, I'd like to know about any new hardware (and I guess > software) being developed and/or sold for vintage computers. I'm going to > compile a directory for this stuff and I also have other plans that may or > may not come to fruition. > > I imagine you can post them to the list since it might be useful for other > folks to know about these projects, but please copy me directly > . > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > http://garberstreet.netfirms.com/RAM-4-GS.html New production run of Apple IIgs 4mb memory boards. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Jun 18 10:32:39 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: OT : Tektronix 475A Scope... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Does anyone have a set of schematics or docs? Mine just let all the magic smoke out. Visual inspection looks like a cap let go, but I would like to make some measurements [having to use a voltmeter] before I blindly replace the obviously fried cap. Please reply to me off list david@dynamicconcepts.us. From paul at mirams.org Fri Jun 18 09:13:03 2004 From: paul at mirams.org (Paul C. Mirams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 Message-ID: Hi If you don't want them, i would be interested. Thanks Paul paul@mirams.org ________________________________ From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org on behalf of Paul R. Santa-Maria Sent: Thu 6/17/2004 11:13 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: FIND: Commodore SuperPET SP9000 + 2040 If you need manuals for your SuperPET then I have the following: SuperPET... Waterloo BASIC (2) System Overview (2) Waterloo 6809 Assembler Waterloo microFORTRAN (2) Waterloo microPASCAL (2) Waterloo microCOBOL Waterloo microBASIC Waterloo microAPL The first one is published by WATFAC and the rest are published by SAMS. -- Paul Monroe, Michigan USA From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 10:58:07 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging In-Reply-To: <200406180818.JAA18710@citadel.metropolis.local> References: <200406180818.JAA18710@citadel.metropolis.local> Message-ID: <1087574287.31058.122.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 08:18, Stan Barr wrote: > > Have you tried Konqueror, or Mozilla? Why do you use Opera? > > Opera is quicker. That and their commitment to standards compliance. That and the small footprint. Plus I used to use Opera on Windows quite a few years ago, so I've pretty much stuck with it since then. Not saying there aren't other good browsers out there too, but it does just what I need (except when EBay UK causes problems!) > > Which GUI do you use? I tried Gnome but KDE is better in every way IMHO. > > Don't use Gnome or KDE, they slow this old machine* down too much, I use > Afterstep on bare X. I used to like Afterstep a lot. Nice and quick, but slick with it. I've got Gnome on this desktop machine (Redhat 9) but I do want to try a comparable KDE setup. Gnome seems slow as hell at times (despite this being a 1GHz machine with heaps of memory). I just can't justify switching over to KDE as everything's nicely set up here, even if it is a little clunky sometime. Maybe I'll schedule it for next disk crash :-) I too use Openoffice for docs and Evolution as a mail client (although I run that from the fileserver with the desktop comp just acting as a remote display). Only thing I use Windows for is occasional use of Paint Shop Pro, and sometimes boot into DOS to do some 3D work with Autodesk's 3DStudio (which must be over ten years old now I think) cheers Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 10:57:53 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> Message-ID: <200406181559.LAA24228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Given the complete lack of originating IP or envelope information > when fetching from a remote POP3 mailbox, ...huh? The envelope-from is there in the Return-Path: header; the originating IP is there in a Received: header (usually the first, but if there's an internal handoff within the organization, it may be a later one). The envelope-to _has_ usually been lost, unfortunately. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 10:59:32 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <1087555909.31058.25.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> <1087555909.31058.25.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406181602.MAA24264@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> [...greylisting...] > Going from memory, we have a Majordomo-based mailing list on a > windows machine for the museum email list, using whatever Microsoft's > email server software is called these days. It wouldn't cope with > resending to people using greylisting, and so messages from the > mailing list never got delivered. The problem here is with the broken software you were using, not with greylisting. Anything calling itself a mailer that refuses to queue and retry when faced with a soft failure is so broken it should not be let out of the intranet - and I would argue shouldn't be used there either, given how many other things they probably got wrong too. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 18 11:22:33 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406181602.MAA24264@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> <1087555909.31058.25.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406181602.MAA24264@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1087575753.31058.148.camel@weka.localdomain> On Fri, 2004-06-18 at 15:59, der Mouse wrote: > >> [...greylisting...] > > > Going from memory, we have a Majordomo-based mailing list on a > > windows machine for the museum email list, using whatever Microsoft's > > email server software is called these days. It wouldn't cope with > > resending to people using greylisting, and so messages from the > > mailing list never got delivered. > > The problem here is with the broken software you were using, not with > greylisting. Anything calling itself a mailer that refuses to queue > and retry when faced with a soft failure is so broken it should not be > let out of the intranet Oh I totally agree. But given the number of commercial sites using said software it's worth being aware of the problems in adopting greylisting, in that you may suddenly find yourself not receiving important emails (due to their choice of software, not anything wrong with greylisting itself) > - and I would argue shouldn't be used there > either, given how many other things they probably got wrong too. I'd quite like to move the museum mailing list onto one of the servers at the museum (which means we'd have archives on site, amongst other useful things), but there are just too many other things to do at the moment. Currently one of the volunteers runs it from home. Nothing can be done at the museum end until the remote admin side of things is sorted though. I've got a list about a mile long of useful things that need doing, but with only a handful of volunteers able to devote a few hours per week these things take time. We need more people! cheers, Jules From jbmcb at hotmail.com Fri Jun 18 11:39:07 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) Message-ID: How about an all-singing, all-dancing super Commodore emulator? Emulates PET, C16, VIC20, C64, Plus4, C128, Amiga 500/1000/2000, all relevant cartridge and expansion slots, internal IDE hard drive to store program, and disk/tape images. >From: Cameron Kaiser >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) >Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:01:08 -0700 (PDT) >I spoke with Darren Melbourne, the man behind Ironstone, as well. Ironstone >is responsible for the C64-joystick C= will start to sell around >october/november. I, of course, asked him about the hardware. >The bad news: it will a single chip ASIC. I only forgot to ask him if the >ROM with OS and games were inside the ASIC or apart. >The good news: I know about who is behind the development of this C64 and >therefor we can expect quite some suprises: >- The new C64 will have at least 265 colours >- It will have higher resolutions >- It will have two SID's onboard >- The ASIC runs on 27 MHz. I hardly can imagine it needs 27 cycles to >emulate one of the original C64. >- I asked Darren if there are plans to produce a big C64 based on this >print. So he revealed that, although it resembles a joystick, all >connections of the normal ports are available in the form of pads. So one >could solder his own expansionport, userport or whatever to this stick. >- Regarding the extra features: they want to publish the memorymap and >other >technical details so programmers are able to develop new games etc. for >this >new C64. > _________________________________________________________________ Getting married? Find great tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 18 12:26:52 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Those of you on cbm-hackers will have already seen this message. Some > preamble: > > Commodore, just yesterday (see www.commodoreworld.com) was reintroduced > by trademark holder Tulip as an electronics subsidiary. Most of their > current and envisioned product line is fairly unimpressive me-too products > including an iPod/iTunes ripoff and they're actually trying to resell the > old Epyx Commodore 64 titles to which they have acquired the rights. > > One thing that has not endeared Tulip to the Commodore community was an > attempt to grind down on trademark enforcement. First it was the > Commodore name and logo, and then the system ROMs, and there is also some > argument over the IP of the 64 itself. Apparently a collabourator called > Ironstone is developing a new 64 of their own, separate from the C-1 being > created by Jeri Ellsworth, which is nearing completion. There is worry that > Ironstone/Tulip will clamp down on new hardware development as a result. So these people are fighting over a market worth, at most, $10,000? I think they've already spent two times that in legal fees. > Anyone have any comments? This seems like the C64 community is going to get > stomped on. (None of this affects the Amiga, AFAIK, which is not owned > by Tulip.) I think the Tulip guys have a real success story on their hands here. Bill Gates had better start worrying. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Jun 18 12:35:47 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Resend: TSZ07, "5F MOTOR FAULT" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000b01c4555a$b1bbf7c0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > It ends up I have a TSZ07 technical manual. I will glance > through and see if it says anything helpful. I wonder if > there would be a benefit to add this manual to the scanned > DEC docs site... If you head over to http://vt100.net/manx you should be able to find it in three of four places already. If none of those work, I have a pdf already, so let me know and I'll pass it along. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Fri Jun 18 12:38:22 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Jupitor Ace on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message "Witchy" wrote: > There's actually 2 machines, the 2nd one has been, er, 'worked on'. I can't > afford it but already have 2 so I guess that would be greedy :) I'd love to get another Ace, simply because I've got the manual, a 16k RAMpak and the demo tape. I really should get my Ace back and try and repair it. I think the PSU blew out a few tracks and also popped just about every chip on the board. The ROM sockets and CPU socket are suspect, too (they're those lousy metal-leaf sockets that last precisely two chip insert/remove cycles). Ordinarily, I would have bought that Ace off Ebay, but I'm still trying to track down a decent logic analyser... > As it happens I'm getting 20 or so cassettes if Ace software hopefully this > week if the post gets it here, and someone has mailed me saying they've got > the 'remains' of an Ace I can probably have.....not sure what he meant by > 'remains' though :-/ Some people have all the luck. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI Acme Dynamite. Guaranteed to fail unsafe. From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Jun 18 12:36:07 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is the second time in history that Tulip Computers BV has made a fatal mistake in their business planning. Last time, they were sure they could overthrow the PC market (ohh, and DID the global PC makers get a scare out of that! :) and now they want to reclaim a home-computer market that was fully abandonded more than 10 years ago, and now kept alive by hobbyists. I'm ashamed they're a Dutch company. Bah. --f (who still has all his C= stuff, and will definitely not part with it. OK, so where did I put that X1541 cable again???) From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Fri Jun 18 12:57:39 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406181559.LAA24228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> <200406181559.LAA24228@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040618183452.02b685b8@pop.freeserve.net> At 16:57 18/06/2004, you wrote: > > Given the complete lack of originating IP or envelope information > > when fetching from a remote POP3 mailbox, > >...huh? The envelope-from is there in the Return-Path: header; the >originating IP is there in a Received: header (usually the first, but >if there's an internal handoff within the organization, it may be a >later one). > >The envelope-to _has_ usually been lost, unfortunately. I was perhaps being a bit simplistic in my moan ... The main ISP I use does actually include an Envelope-to: header, and so I guess all the information I complained about is there after all. I was thinking from the perspective of running fetchmail locally to fetch mail and pass it to the MTA; of course by then the originating IP has been lost as far as the MTA (postfix in my case) is concerned, as connections come from localhost. Actually. [having just looked into it while writing this] fetchmail does parse the headers to find the originating IP, but it appears to only check this against a blacklist file. I'd have to work out some way of patching in the blackhole DNS checks that I currently use with postfix, or patch them both to pass the IP over in some defined way. This is probably beyond my skills ... Greylisting won't be of help in this case at all, as it only works on the initial mail server that receives the spam directly. It'll probably be easier to one day when I have a day to spare to trawl through all my email and work out what is wanted that comes in on those addresses, and sort those out, then ditch those accounts! [They are mostly used by contact addresses on domain registrations, financial stuff, mailing lists, etc. not impossible to change, but not quite as easy as sending out an email to all my contacts saying I've moved.] Rob From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 13:02:46 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <1087575753.31058.148.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <200406180137.VAA08226@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <6.1.1.1.0.20040618091928.03f7de68@pop.freeserve.net> <1087555909.31058.25.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406181602.MAA24264@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1087575753.31058.148.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406181807.OAA24906@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The problem here is with the broken software you were using, not >> with greylisting. [...] > [G]iven the number of commercial sites using said software it's worth > being aware of the problems in adopting greylisting, in that you may > suddenly find yourself not receiving important emails [...] Yeah. The world needs more people willing to tell the senders of such email "_you_ lost it, by entrusting it to broken software". But that requires senders willing to take the responsibility for their own actions (such as, choosing software without making sure it actually met the spec). And such people are in notably short supply these days, especially in North America (which I realize you probably aren't). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bpope at wordstock.com Fri Jun 18 13:06:08 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 18, 04 10:26:52 am Message-ID: <200406181806.OAA00966@wordstock.com> And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > One thing that has not endeared Tulip to the Commodore community was an > > attempt to grind down on trademark enforcement. First it was the > > Commodore name and logo, and then the system ROMs, and there is also some > > argument over the IP of the 64 itself. Apparently a collabourator called > > Ironstone is developing a new 64 of their own, separate from the C-1 being > > created by Jeri Ellsworth, which is nearing completion. There is worry that > > Ironstone/Tulip will clamp down on new hardware development as a result. > > So these people are fighting over a market worth, at most, $10,000? I > think they've already spent two times that in legal fees. I think it's a little more then that. At the recent Commodore Expo in Louisville, KY, Greg Nacu (distributor of the IDE64) sold the nine IDE64's he brought for $150 each plus all the Micromys PS/2 adapters for $40 apiece. LOADSTAR sold quite a few of the email disk subscriptions for $35 each. I was going to buy a Retro-Replay + RR-Net card for $45 until I won it.. ;) That doesn't include all of the used stuff being sold there... > > > Anyone have any comments? This seems like the C64 community is going to get > > stomped on. (None of this affects the Amiga, AFAIK, which is not owned > > by Tulip.) > > I think the Tulip guys have a real success story on their hands here. > Bill Gates had better start worrying. :) Cheers, Bryan Pope From RMeenaks at OLF.COM Fri Jun 18 14:01:13 2004 From: RMeenaks at OLF.COM (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Intel i960 MC Programmer's Reference Manual Message-ID: <92322E4B3209D511A19100508B5584780655341A@exchange.olf.com> Hi, Picked this up on ebay and have no use for it (I really wanted the i860 Programmer's Manual that came with this), so if anyone wants it let me know $3 + shipping... Thanks, Ram (c) 2004 OpenLink Financial Copyright in this message and any attachments remains with us. It is confidential and may be legally privileged. If this message is not intended for you it must not be read, copied or used by you or disclosed to anyone else. Please advise the sender immediately if you have received this message in error. Although this message and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by Open Link Financial, Inc. for any loss or damage in any way arising from its use. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 18 13:58:34 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: <200406181806.OAA00966@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly Vintage Computer Festival spake: > > > > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > One thing that has not endeared Tulip to the Commodore community was an > > > attempt to grind down on trademark enforcement. First it was the > > > Commodore name and logo, and then the system ROMs, and there is also some > > > argument over the IP of the 64 itself. Apparently a collabourator called > > > Ironstone is developing a new 64 of their own, separate from the C-1 being > > > created by Jeri Ellsworth, which is nearing completion. There is worry that > > > Ironstone/Tulip will clamp down on new hardware development as a result. > > > > So these people are fighting over a market worth, at most, $10,000? I > > think they've already spent two times that in legal fees. > > I think it's a little more then that. At the recent Commodore Expo in > Louisville, KY, Greg Nacu (distributor of the IDE64) sold the nine IDE64's > he brought for $150 each plus all the Micromys PS/2 adapters for $40 apiece. > > LOADSTAR sold quite a few of the email disk subscriptions for $35 each. Ok, sorry. $10,000 + $1,350 + $800 (I'll assume 20 sold at $40 each) + $1000 + $5,000 bonus = about $9,500 net negative when they factor in all the expense. Can you put a dollar amount on bad will generated by stupid decisions by a clueless executive team who thinks they can milk the C= name for all it's worth (which is still less than what they've already invested in it)? > That doesn't include all of the used stuff being sold there... >From a purely hobbyist pursuit, there is some money to be made, anywhere from pocket change to one month's mortgage. But I'm talking about Tulip basing a business model around this. Are they stupid or just dumb? -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From waltje at pdp11.nl Fri Jun 18 14:04:07 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > >From a purely hobbyist pursuit, there is some money to be made, anywhere > from pocket change to one month's mortgage. But I'm talking about Tulip > basing a business model around this. Are they stupid or just dumb? Both. --f From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 18 14:13:01 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20040618052558.GD26500@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 18, 4 05:25:58 am Message-ID: > I've seen a pretty easy-to-build circuit to put one of those on a > Linux box. I remember something about a simple resistor ladder > network D-A and an LED bargraph chip from Radio Shack. The software > just puts the load on a spare parallel port, so it's pretty low-impact. Are you serious? If so, I have to wonder if anyone can actually _design_ any more, or if they just throw standard modules together and hope it works. Let me see if I understand this. You have a digital value (system usage), on a digitial machine (the linux box). You convert it to analogue. You then re-convert it to digital with a very low-res ADC (the LM3914 (I guess) bargraph chip. Why not just output a suitable value on the parallel port (which has 12 output lines IIRC) to directly drive the LEDs (the 3914 drives 10 LEDs at most). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 18 14:36:20 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040618122501.R64539@newshell.lmi.net> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Sure, until the spammers and virus writers catch on. > Look, the path of least resistance to this problem is as follows: > 1) Lobby local representatives to pass laws allowing the hunting down and > physical termination of spammers and virus writers > Until these two distinct classes of people (spammers and spammees) are > entirely eliminated from the gene pool, we will continue to suffer this > scourge. It seems unlikely that spammercide will be legalized, particularly when current law enforcement organizations refuse to even try to prosecute (under existing conspiracy and agency responsibility laws) mortgage brokers and V1@GRA peddlers for spamming, or hiring spammers to spam on their behalf. The FTC says that it is "impossible to track down spammers, because they operate anonymously"! But even they have to admit that it is trivial to track down the merchants that the spammers work with. Conspiracy may usually be hard to get a conviction under (except for political cases), but these guys have a paper trail. Something that MIGHT work: Urban legends spread fast on the internet, and are believed by otherwise rational people. Once word gets out that 83 spammers have been tracked down and terminated with molten iron, some of them might be a little more hesitant. From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 18 14:43:51 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <20040618122501.R64539@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Something that MIGHT work: > Urban legends spread fast on the internet, and are > believed by otherwise rational people. Once word > gets out that 83 spammers have been tracked down > and terminated with molten iron, some of them might > be a little more hesitant. Unfortunately, snopes.com would just debunk it. Maybe we can find a suitable candidate for slaughter who is mentally deranged. We can then fill his head with the notion that the end of the world is nigh and to save humanity he must go out and kill all spammers. We'll give him dark sunglasses, leather pants, and a Harley, and he shall be known as... The Spaminator! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From edward at groenenberg.net Fri Jun 18 11:54:02 2004 From: edward at groenenberg.net (Ed) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Fun new stuff References: Message-ID: <40D31E2A.AC1317F0@groenenberg.net> Cool! I remember those from the time I was studying. We had 2 of those in one of our classrooms. AFAIK we got them from some company to play with them, a bit difficult if you ask me, as there was no controller. So we eventually ended up to canibalize them for usable electronic parts for whatever project was going on. I always liked the glass front to slide up and down :) If I ever can put my hands on one of those myself, then I most likely will convert it into a small bar like this guy did with a VAX 780 cabinet. Ed William Donzelli wrote: > > Here is a bit of good mainframe junk recently obtained: > > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3803.front.jpg > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3803.open.jpg > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3420.front.jpg > http://users.bestweb.net/~toober/images/3420.open.jpg > > Basically, the big blue box is an IBM 3803 Tape Control Unit - the brain > that connects 3420 Tape Units (one of three is pictured) to an S/370 thru > a Bus & Tag channel. The 3803 and two of the 3420s are from 1972, and the > third 3420 may be from 1980. The 3803 apparently works - it was in service > quite recently - but all three of the 3420s have problems. Luckily, I > obtained a full set of MLMs (service binders) for the units, plus some Bus > & Tag cables. > > Note the 3803 has a full control panel. It better, as it has more > electronics in it than most minis of the era. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org -- edward@groenenberg.net | Collector of PDP-11's. http://www.groenenberg.net | Politici zijn vieze oplichters. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is crap. '97 TL1000S From msg at waste.org Fri Jun 18 13:16:53 2004 From: msg at waste.org (Infra) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Diablo 33F (Series 30) Disk Drive (D.G. Nova, Datapoint, etc) F.A. Message-ID: Greetings: Please view our auction listing for a Diablo Series 30 disk drive: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5103296988 This drive was part of a Data General Nova configuration; this model was also commonly used on Datapoint (2200) systems and many other minicomputers. The Diablo I/O bus was also used by plug-compatible drive makers. Included is a complete set of manuals on CD-ROM in PDF format. Funds are badly needed and any interest in this drive is much appreciated. Regards, Michael Grigoni Cybertheque Museum msg@REMOVETHIScybertheque.org From charlesb at otcgaming.net Fri Jun 18 15:02:39 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... References: <40D20183.6080708@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <005d01c4556f$4ab17090$0100a8c0@thunder> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:39 PM Subject: Re: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > I believe David is getting multiple (i.e. greater than 2) bursts of the > > same messages. This is my case. > > Receiving more than two copies is still a mystery to me. If you receive > the duplicates in bursts, as David reported, please tell me *off list* > the time that you receive the burst, including your timezone. > > If I can correlate these times with moderation times, it will support a > theory I have about a possible failure mechanism at classiccmp.org's > end. I'm taking this off list now. There you go paul, i've emailed you the headers from two emails... For the benefit of the others, they are: - msg 1: Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> msg 2: Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> as you can see they have both the same message id.... however one came @ 14:47 and the 2nd one @ 16:47 (all times UK - EST +5) hopefully things can be found out... Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From charlesb at otcgaming.net Fri Jun 18 15:00:10 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... References: <40D20183.6080708@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <005c01c4556f$4a1d9500$0100a8c0@thunder> Hi you wanted to know about dupe posts, i'm in the uk EST + 5 This is the first one received about 14:47 Return-path: Envelope-to: charlesb@otcgaming.net Delivery-date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:47:09 -0400 Received: from otc by srv01.comcage.com with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BbJhv-0006xE-RF for charlesb@otcgaming.net; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:47:05 -0400 Received: from [209.145.140.36] (helo=huey.classiccmp.org) by srv01.comcage.com with esmtp (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.34) id 1BbJhq-0006wx-2t for charlesb@otcgaming.net; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:46:58 -0400 Received: from huey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i5IE0Ghi026464; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:00:21 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Received: from floodgap.com (nobody@netblock-66-159-214-137.dslextreme.com [66.159.214.137]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i5IE09hc026458 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:00:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from spectre@floodgap.com) Received: (from spectre@localhost) by floodgap.com (8.9.1/2004.05.05) id HAA14108 for cctalk@classiccmp.org; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:01:08 -0700 From: Cameron Kaiser Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) X-BeenThere: cctalk@classiccmp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org X-yoursite-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=ham version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on srv01.comcage.com X-yoursite-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-From: otc@srv01.comcage.com This is the 2nd one received @ 16:49 Return-path: Envelope-to: charlesb@otcgaming.net Delivery-date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:49:09 -0400 Received: from otc by srv01.comcage.com with local-bsmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1BbLc4-0000Lu-5W for charlesb@otcgaming.net; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:49:08 -0400 Received: from [209.145.140.36] (helo=huey.classiccmp.org) by srv01.comcage.com with esmtp (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.34) id 1BbLc3-0000Lh-DD for charlesb@otcgaming.net; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:49:07 -0400 Received: from huey.classiccmp.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i5IFxghe027289; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:59:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org) Received: from floodgap.com (nobody@netblock-66-159-214-137.dslextreme.com [66.159.214.137]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with ESMTP id i5IE09hc026458 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 09:00:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from spectre@floodgap.com) Received: (from spectre@localhost) by floodgap.com (8.9.1/2004.05.05) id HAA14108 for cctalk@classiccmp.org; Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:01:08 -0700 From: Cameron Kaiser Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 07:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 10:58:21 -0500 Cc: Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) X-BeenThere: cctech@classiccmp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org X-yoursite-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 tests=none autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on srv01.comcage.com X-yoursite-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-MailScanner-From: otc@srv01.comcage.com I've just got back from work so that's why it's taken this long :D Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:39 PM Subject: Re: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > I believe David is getting multiple (i.e. greater than 2) bursts of the > > same messages. This is my case. > > Receiving more than two copies is still a mystery to me. If you receive > the duplicates in bursts, as David reported, please tell me *off list* > the time that you receive the burst, including your timezone. > > If I can correlate these times with moderation times, it will support a > theory I have about a possible failure mechanism at classiccmp.org's > end. I'm taking this off list now. > > -- > Paul > > > From lists at microvax.org Fri Jun 18 15:41:50 2004 From: lists at microvax.org (meltie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406182141.50324.lists@microvax.org> On Friday 18 June 2004 20:13, Tony Duell wrote: > > I've seen a pretty easy-to-build circuit to put one of those on a > > Linux box. I remember something about a simple resistor ladder > > network D-A and an LED bargraph chip from Radio Shack. The software > > just puts the load on a spare parallel port, so it's pretty > > low-impact. > > Are you serious? If so, I have to wonder if anyone can actually _design_ > any more, or if they just throw standard modules together and hope it > works. > > Let me see if I understand this. You have a digital value (system > usage), on a digitial machine (the linux box). You convert it to > analogue. You then re-convert it to digital with a very low-res ADC (the > LM3914 (I guess) bargraph chip. Why not just output a suitable value on > the parallel port (which has 12 output lines IIRC) to directly drive the > LEDs (the 3914 drives 10 LEDs at most). > > -tony I don't know the one he's talking about but the most popular one all over the web (and the one that i've got lying around from my old mail server) just has 10 LEDs driven directly from the port with a common resistor. alex/melt From jimmydevice at verizon.net Fri Jun 18 15:50:38 2004 From: jimmydevice at verizon.net (jimmydevice) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Interesting part In-Reply-To: <40CB964B.1090208@ao.com> References: <40CB964B.1090208@ao.com> Message-ID: <40D3559E.7070907@verizon.net> Gary Oliver wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > ... > >> UK PAL video equipment used to use a glass delay line as part of the >> PAL decoder. This was a 'mechanical' device -- piezo-electric >> transducers sent a pulse through the glass which was picked up about >> 64us (a little less -- just under 1 line time) later by a similar >> transducers. Old VCRS -- the better ones anyway -- used a 64us >> (exactly 1 line time) delay line to store a video line to be used if >> there was a dropout on the tape. Modern ones don't seem to bother :-( >> >> I have often wondered about using such delay lines for data storage... > > > Back in the early 70s at Oregon State University, there sat a "home > built" (using Naval Research funding) computer called "Nebula." (You > can look it up - it's in many of the online histories/chronologies) > Its memory consisted of 4k by 34 bit (yes, 34 bit) words made from > Corning Electronic Devices glass delay lines (part number 853302.) > These delay lines were 100us devices and, at about 27mhz bit rate, we > stored around 2k bits per device. This resulted in 64 words of > storage per card, so with 64 cards we achieved a whopping 4k words (16 > kbytes) of storage. > > It was all DTL logic driven (as was most of the computer at that time) > built from your basic 2n3406 and 2n3407 transistors, if memory serves. > I fooled around with this machine from 1970 through the mid 70s, > getting its small drum offline storage working and adding a few > instructions, general maintenance etc. as well as writing a bunch of > software. When computer time on this machine was "free" relative to > the $300 / hr on the "big iron" it was an easy choice. > > The memory was quite reliable, not temperature sensative and would > retain its contents indefinitely (as long as power wasn't removed, of > course.) > > The 34 bit word layout consisted of 32 "numeric" data bits, plus a S > ("spare") and P ("parity") bits. The 34 bits were all part of the > programmer model. The "parity" bit was misnamed, since it really > never was involved in a word 'parity' check and the "spare" bit wasn't > really a "spare." Both were testable and setable but not involved in > numeric or logical operations. The only changed on store and explicit > set/clear operations. > > The machine also had 2k similar size words, made from basically the > same glass delay lines, but organized as a content-addressable > memory. The CAM was not usable as program storage, but you could > store data there, after a fashion. > > As I said, the memory worked well and including the drivers and timing > controls, was a comparable volume to core memory of the time. Of > course, it was slow and serial (imagine a drum with a 100 uS rotation > rate.) But since the machine itself (at the outset) had a 100uS cycle > time, it was still "relatively" fast. > > We later (mid 70s) replaced the glass memory with a core storage > module from a Stretch compute (OSU received a Stretch - minus CPU > alas) and Nebula got one of it's core modules. This resulted in 32k > words of storage with a cycle time of a few microseconds. > Unfortunately Nebulas core control logic wasn't up to that speed (it > was a serial computer by nature) so the best we ever got was about 30 > uS word time (and that was pushing it a bit.) > > Short answer, glass was quite reliable. I still have one of the > modules from the machine (after it was "decomissioned" for the core > changeout) and want to build a small demo memory with it some day. > Only wish I had enough to build a reasonable size machine... > > -Gary > >> >> -tony > > > Gary, Are there any pictures of nebula? I fondly remember you giving me the grand tour back in 1975?, of nebula, sitting across from the PDP-9, the CDC 3300, your music composer program and the cyber running lander. Thanks for the memories. ;-) Cheers, Jim Davis I'm currently writing post silicon validation tests at intel for the IXP2800 network processor, an architecture that was developed by DEC at Hudson before GQ palmer kill our baby. It's a mainframe class system, I wish it wasn't targeted at network solutions. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Fri Jun 18 15:54:35 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <005d01c4556f$4ab17090$0100a8c0@thunder> References: <40D20183.6080708@frixxon.co.uk> <005d01c4556f$4ab17090$0100a8c0@thunder> Message-ID: <40D3568B.1030402@frixxon.co.uk> charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > There you go paul, i've emailed you the headers from two emails... Thank you. In fact the entire list thanks you, as that's where you sent them :-) > For the benefit of the others, they are: - > > msg 1: Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> > msg 2: Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> > > as you can see they have both the same message id.... however one came @ 14:47 and the 2nd one @ 16:47 (all times UK - EST +5) One of those was sent to cctalk, and one was sent to cctech, so there is no mystery here, sorry! The second one, to cctech, was delayed because all posts to cctech have to be moderated, and that happened at 16:44. If you,or anyone else, receives a third copy of any message, then there is a real problem somewhere, but please tell me about it *off list*, to paul@frixxon.co.uk Sorry folks, this is the last time I'll respond on-list about this. -- Paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 18 15:59:20 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Diablo 33F (Series 30) Disk Drive (D.G. Nova, Datapoint, etc) F.A. References: Message-ID: <029801c45577$2069f2a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Re: > Please view our auction listing for a Diablo Series 30 disk drive: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5103296988 > > This drive was part of a Data General Nova configuration; this model was > also commonly used on Datapoint (2200) systems and many other > minicomputers. The Diablo I/O bus was also used by plug-compatible > drive makers. > > Included is a complete set of manuals on CD-ROM in PDF format. I've always wanted one of these! Not sure I want to pay 100 bucks plus shipping though :\ --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Jun 18 15:55:53 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: <20040618122501.R64539@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040618205553.GA27968@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 12:43:51PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Something that MIGHT work: > > Urban legends spread fast on the internet, and are > > believed by otherwise rational people. Once word > > gets out that 83 spammers have been tracked down > > and terminated with molten iron, some of them might > > be a little more hesitant. > > Unfortunately, snopes.com would just debunk it. > > Maybe we can find a suitable candidate for slaughter who is mentally > deranged. We can then fill his head with the notion that the end of the > world is nigh and to save humanity he must go out and kill all spammers. > We'll give him dark sunglasses, leather pants, and a Harley, and he shall > be known as... > > The Spaminator! Aren't you forgetting something? Right - he also needs a handy bucket of molten iron to terminate spammers with! Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Fri Jun 18 15:23:02 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: Message-ID: <01c001c45577$5526eca0$bb72fea9@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 11:28 PM Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) > Actually I started because I realised that unless _somebody_ started > preserving these old machines then 30 years of history was going to get > lost. And rather than simply say that, I started grabbing all I could > find. Particularly minicomputers. > > -tony > True. It makes me realise that old Isaac Asimov was not too far off the mark with his visions of a future when no-one understood how the machines worked . Geoff. From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Fri Jun 18 15:53:46 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware References: <20040617022238.GB28971@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <01c101c45577$560a47c0$bb72fea9@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 3:22 AM Subject: Re: Compiling a list of "neo-retro" hardware > On Wed, Jun 16, 2004 at 05:41:19PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > > I'd like to create a resource listing of all the neo-retro hardware being > > developed today. How about a divorce listing of all the stuff being chucked out ! :^) Geoff. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 18 15:59:16 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <200406182141.50324.lists@microvax.org> from "meltie" at Jun 18, 4 09:41:50 pm Message-ID: > I don't know the one he's talking about but the most popular one all over > the web (and the one that i've got lying around from my old mail server) > just has 10 LEDs driven directly from the port with a common resistor. If that's how they did it, then it's a lot more reasonable. However, for bar (as opposed to dot) mode, I'd prefer one resistor per LED (since the total current obviously increases as the number of LEDs goes up). And I'd probably add a buffer chip (something like an 'LS540 or 'LS541, whichever allowed me use it as a current sinking stage (LED + resistor returned to the +5V line). Most printer ports can supply the current needed be LEDs, but I'd not want to risk it, if that port was part of a difficult-to-find multi-IO chip on the motherboard. For PCs like mine, where the printer ports are all built from TTL on add-on cards, and where I have schematics anyway, I'd just connect the LEDs directly to the port. -tony From technobug at comcast.net Fri Jun 18 16:09:47 2004 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: OT : Tektronix 475A Scope... In-Reply-To: <200406181655.i5IGswhd027928@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406181655.i5IGswhd027928@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: David - A great site for old test equipment is . If the US Military had it as a standard piece of equipment they will have the manuals on-line. Both TM 11-6625-2735-14-1 and TM 11-6625-2735-24P-1 are on line and cover the Tek 475. Good luck gathering the smoke... Claude > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 11:32:39 -0400 > From: "David V. Corbin" > Subject: OT : Tektronix 475A Scope... > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: > UENERkVCMDkAAQACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABgAAAAAAAAAC6RJHIx+0kSwesJ7EUMCZcKAAAA > QAAAAZViPZir1Wkad3T578gnBuQEAAAAA@optonline.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > Does anyone have a set of schematics or docs? Mine just let all the > magic > smoke out. Visual inspection looks like a cap let go, but I would like > to > make some measurements [having to use a voltmeter] before I blindly > replace > the obviously fried cap. > > Please reply to me off list david@dynamicconcepts.us. > From cswiger at widomaker.com Fri Jun 18 16:09:26 2004 From: cswiger at widomaker.com (Chuck Swiger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <20040618052558.GD26500@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.1.20040618165245.01edf930@wilma.widomaker.com> At 08:13 PM 6/18/2004 +0100, you wrote: > > I've seen a pretty easy-to-build circuit to put one of those on a > > Linux box. I remember something about a simple resistor ladder > > network D-A and an LED bargraph chip from Radio Shack. The software > > just puts the load on a spare parallel port, so it's pretty low-impact. > >Are you serious? If so, I have to wonder if anyone can actually _design_ >any more, or if they just throw standard modules together and hope it works. > >Let me see if I understand this. You have a digital value (system usage), >on a digitial machine (the linux box). You convert it to analogue. You >then re-convert it to digital with a very low-res ADC (the LM3914 (I >guess) bargraph chip. Why not just output a suitable value on the >parallel port (which has 12 output lines IIRC) to directly drive the LEDs >(the 3914 drives 10 LEDs at most). > >-tony The only Linux cpu load/led display projects I could find work as Tony described . ledstatus-0.1.tar, meter-0.2.tar, and qmeter-1.0.tar all use one led & a resistor on each parallel port line D0-D7 (two leds not used). Which is disappointing because I wanted to use a big old analog radio meter ;) --Chuck From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 18 16:18:12 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <20040618205553.GA27968@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 12:43:51PM -0700, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > > Something that MIGHT work: > > > Urban legends spread fast on the internet, and are > > > believed by otherwise rational people. Once word > > > gets out that 83 spammers have been tracked down > > > and terminated with molten iron, some of them might > > > be a little more hesitant. > > > > Unfortunately, snopes.com would just debunk it. > > > > Maybe we can find a suitable candidate for slaughter who is mentally > > deranged. We can then fill his head with the notion that the end of the > > world is nigh and to save humanity he must go out and kill all spammers. > > We'll give him dark sunglasses, leather pants, and a Harley, and he shall > > be known as... > > > > The Spaminator! > > Aren't you forgetting something? > Right - he also needs a handy bucket of molten iron to terminate > spammers with! Actually, that's what he'll dip himself in after he's done Spaminating. He must self-destruct or else future spammers might use him to take over Skynet and enslave mankind with massive doses of V!@6RA. Plus it'll exonerate us since there will be no perpetrator to talk :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 18 16:55:27 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040618144256.T64539@newshell.lmi.net> > > 83 spammers have been tracked down and terminated with molten iron, On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Unfortunately, snopes.com would just debunk it. snopes.com is good for many kinds of things, but she is a sucker on certain technology issues. What kind of phone system does 9 0 # work on? Besides, it's really true! A friend of a friend lived next to a spammer, and some biker dude came and burned him to death! From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jun 18 17:06:14 2004 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <200406180605.CAA22603@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <200406180605.CAA22603@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > >> Another suggestion which is remarkably effective in my experience is > >> to do an identd lookup, not for the usual reasons but rather because > >> quite a number of the zombie-army machines are running toy identds > >> to satisfy things like IRC servers, and they exhibit certain > >> protocol errors. > > "Some of us" are running spoofed identds for other internal reasons. > > What do you mean by "certain protocol errors"? > > I've noticed five major classes of errors. > Doesn't exist > This is an "ERROR:NO-USER" response. This should never happen; > it indicates either a totally busted identd, a NATting gateway > whose admin is crazy enough to run an identd without making > sure it's a NAT-aware identd, or an 0wn3d machine with a > rootkit good enough to hide the outgoing connection from > whatever interface identd uses. The third one I _definitely_ > want to refuse mail from, and the other two I'm willing to call > broken enough to refuse too. (Hm, actually, it could also be a > portscanner connection that was reset before the identd > response comes in; that too I have no interest in accepting > anything from.) > > Most of the trips of the "bogus UNIX" test are identds that claim UNIX > usernames beginning with a space. This was perfectly valid under > RFC931 (which specified that whitespace was ignored even at the > beginning of a username), but with 1314 having obsoleted 931 over a > decade ago, I am quite willing to consider it broken today. If you use > that one you may want to ignore leading whitespace. Don't forget that a lot of Linux dists were shipping with identd configured to send 'UNKNOWN' or 'ERROR:NO-USER' to all requests. Supposedly this was to improve security... -Toth From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Fri Jun 18 16:18:10 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: EBay UK search hanging References: <1087488498.29729.127.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <032001c45581$e9733440$bb72fea9@geoff> Ebay does have some illegal cookies from time to time where the site domain address and the cookie domain address don't match. Opera ( under win'98 ) tells me this quite often. Sounds as though this may be at the root of your problem. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: OT: EBay UK search hanging > > Knowing that there's a few EBay users on the list who also know how to > fix modern software... :-) > > On the rare occasions that I do actually bother to search EBay for > anything classic computer related I quite often find that hitting the > search submit button just hangs, with the browser (Opera under Linux in > my case) sitting there saying "Waiting for DNS confirmation of cookie > domain(s)". > > If I open another browser window at this point and then try and go to > any other site it'll just sit there with the same message. > > If I close the browser and come back later it's fine. Very frustrating. > Anyone else see this or know what causes it? I've *only* seen it happen > trying to do an Ebay search, never with any other website - but it's > been this way for months. > > Whilst it's hung like this in the browser I can do DNS lookups from the > shell fine, so it's not a DNS problem or a local configuration problem. > I assume Opera happens to use shared DNS lookup code and for some reason > something to do with EBay's search *sometimes* makes it hang. > > Presumably others might be able to shed some light on this, or at least > confim / deny that they've seen similar problems with EBay UK from > different platforms and browsers... > > cheers > > Jules > From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Fri Jun 18 16:43:52 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... References: <200406172256.PAA11917@clulw009.amd.com> <200406180201.WAA11073@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <032101c45581$ea65d1a0$bb72fea9@geoff> I can only assume that the star (Y) system was a four wire system. The star system can be either 3 or 4 wire it appears, whereas delta is always 3 wire. It was 1970 when I did this , so if anyone wants to put me right -feel free. It does seem a logical explanation though. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 2:44 AM Subject: Re: A case for downgrading to PCs (was: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTERNUT... > > Most know about motor rotation but he was talking about delta versus > > Y. This can be quite different. > > What _is_ the difference between delta and Y? A while ago we had a > discussion that ended up revolving around what point is grounded > ("neutral"). As far as I can see, delta and Y are basically > equivalent, provided you don't try to refer anything to ground (or > anything else beyond the three phases), and provided you don't overload > anything. > > Am I missing something? > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Jun 18 17:35:55 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? In-Reply-To: <0qhdtuz4an.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Andrew K. Bressen wrote: > > Anyone have suggestions as to things to look at along this vein? > Another place besides the American History museum is > the Crypto Museum near Ft Meade, http://www.nsa.gov/museum/ Back from DC; Thanks to Andrew Bessen for this hint. The Cryptology Museum has a Cray XMP and a YMP, plus a twin-rack Connection Machine 5. The YMP and CM-5 are both running (The CM-5 has it's idle blinkin lights happily going nuts, while the YMP sits in a halted state due to a CPU fault). This is the first time I've ever seen a Cray in person, and after a bit of wheedling with one of the caretakers (Who could care less who I was or what I wanted as long as I wasn't going to bother him), I was allowed to take panels off and take pictures of the insides. I even have a little video with my digital camera of the CM-5's lights happily churning away. Alas, because of the cramped quarters it's somewhat hard to really climb into the YMP as I'd like to, but that's ok. Highlight of my trip, I'm sad to say. Thanks again; From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Jun 18 17:41:17 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20040618052558.GD26500@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2004 at 11:41:09PM -0500, Doc Shipley wrote: > > Bah! I'll take the CPU-monitor LEDs on my BeBox any day! > I've seen a pretty easy-to-build circuit to put one of those on a > Linux box. I remember something about a simple resistor ladder > network D-A and an LED bargraph chip from Radio Shack. The software > just puts the load on a spare parallel port, so it's pretty low-impact. > -ethan I decided that if I could have a BeBox with LED meters, then I'd better make myself my own. I have eight LEDs (four green, two yellow, one orange, one red - fluke in colour arrangement as I was ripping them off from old AT cases), each of which has a 220 ohm resistor in series to a DB25 header. I used a spare straight-through serial ribbon cable to hook it to the parallel port. I use Linux's /proc/stat to read CPU load, and then a extremely simple C library ("parapin") in XS coupled to a perl script (I do better with perl than C) to turn the lines on and off. Works a lot better than I would have imagined, considering how much of a bodge job it is. I'm too embaressed to take pictures of the solder work, lest I croak of shame. JP From dwight.elvey at amd.com Fri Jun 18 17:47:08 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: need hex prom code or source for Intel MDS-800 monitor Message-ID: <200406182247.PAA14086@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Steve I've got the source someplace if Joe doesn't come up with it before I do. Of course, I should be able to do a ROM dump but I'll be busy with a couple things this and next weekend. Dwight >From: "Steve Thatcher" >> >I have finally had time to start bringing up my Northstar Horizon system. What I was hoping was that someone had the hex prom code or source for the Intel monitor in the MDS-800. In past time, I actually had ISIS-II running on a Northstar system and it requires a Intel style monitor program at 0f800H. Once I get access to my 8" disks again, I will be able to supply modified source that would allow someone else to do the same thing. > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 18 18:21:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <20040618144256.T64539@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > 83 spammers have been tracked down and terminated with molten iron, > > On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Unfortunately, snopes.com would just debunk it. > > snopes.com is good for many kinds of things, but she is a sucker > on certain technology issues. What kind of phone system > does 9 0 # work on? What entry is that? That configuration probably only worked on a specific brand of phone system, and only if configured to allow any user to trunk transfer an outside caller to an outbound trunk. The # would (I assume) tell the phone system to outdial the 0 and not wait for any further digits. This is one of those scams that probably worked for one person with one company they took advantage of and spread from there. Everyone's a sucker for free phone calls, so of course everyone who heard of this would try it. > Besides, it's really true! A friend of a friend lived next to a spammer, > and some biker dude came and burned him to death! Yeah, I heard he was hopped up on massive doses of V!@6RA. I don't even want to talk about what he did to the corpse! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 18 18:48:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: need hex prom code or source for Intel MDS-800 monitor In-Reply-To: <200406182247.PAA14086@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040618194854.0087c9e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Steve, I got your message about this too. But I've been busier than a cat covering S***! I've got a couple of working MDss but they're all covered with other junk, er, future projects. What kind of Multibus chassis are you looking for? I have a couple of gutted MDS-225s but I gave away the only non-working MDS-800 chassis that I had. I also have several six slot card cages with backplanes but no power supplies or anything else attached to them. Will they do for what you want? I've got two working MDS-800s sitting in my living room at the moment but the PC that I was using for a terminal croaked and I need to set up another one. It shouldn't take long but neither would half of the other 500 projects waiting to be done. Joe At 03:47 PM 6/18/04 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi Steve > I've got the source someplace if Joe doesn't come up with >it before I do. Of course, I should be able to do a ROM >dump but I'll be busy with a couple things this and next >weekend. >Dwight > >>From: "Steve Thatcher" >>> >>I have finally had time to start bringing up my Northstar Horizon system. What >I was hoping was that someone had the hex prom code or source for the Intel >monitor in the MDS-800. In past time, I actually had ISIS-II running on a >Northstar system and it requires a Intel style monitor program at 0f800H. Once I >get access to my 8" disks again, I will be able to supply modified source that >would allow someone else to do the same thing. >> >>best regards, Steve Thatcher >> > > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 18 18:53:57 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: <200406180421.VAA07746@floodgap.com> <200406180605.CAA22603@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200406190008.UAA26887@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> [...identd...] >>> What do you mean by "certain protocol errors"? >> I've noticed five major classes of errors. >> Doesn't exist >> This is an "ERROR:NO-USER" response. This should never happen; > Don't forget that a lot of Linux dists were shipping with identd > configured to send 'UNKNOWN' or 'ERROR:NO-USER' to all requests. ERROR:HIDDEN-USER or ERROR:UNKNOWN-ERROR I have no beef with; they don't bother me. ERROR:NO-USER does (when it's not actually true, of course). Anyone shipping an OS with an identd so badly misconfigured as to return ERROR:NO-USER when it's not actually true is doing its users a severe disservice (unless putative new users are specifically and loudly warned of the nonconformance). Any user un-diligent enough to run such a distro (or crazy enough to run it even knowing that about it) is not _my_ problem. Presumably some people would end up running it out of ignorance; ignorance has never been an excuse - and furthermore, that's why such hosts get a "greeting" saying "come back when you've fixed your identd", so they are pointed at the problem. > Supposedly this was to improve security... Bah. Idiots. Returning UNKNOWN-ERROR for all queries has absolutely no security benefit over simply not running anything on port 113 at all, and in fact is a security _hazard_ because it's one more daemon to potentially be cracked through. I don't mind rejecting mail from those stupid, careless, or crazy enough to run systems that brokenly. And as for ignorance, the other plausible explanation, that's why the error I return to them points them at the brokenness, so they can cure their ignorance. Sigh. Tony's rantings about people not understanding things applies to software too, I think, for all that he was applying it primarily to electronics and mechanical gadgetry. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 18 20:06:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <01c001c45577$5526eca0$bb72fea9@geoff> from "Geoffrey Thomas" at Jun 18, 4 09:23:02 pm Message-ID: > It makes me realise that old Isaac Asimov was not too far off the mark with > his visions of a future when no-one understood how the machines worked . This is a separate issue, but it worries me too. Just about everyone these days hasn't a clue as to how anything actually works :-(. -tony From ohh at drizzle.com Fri Jun 18 20:16:23 2004 From: ohh at drizzle.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Places To Visit in NYC? Message-ID: Hey, all: Any good places to visit in New York City?... and I should be clear that I'm asking regarding classic-computing kinds of places, rather than MOMA or Shea Stadium or the hellish Disneyesque nightmare that Times Square has become. :) -O.- (who knows I'll be visiting at least two of those in the next week or so, but that's strictly a coincidence) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 18 20:13:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20040618165245.01edf930@wilma.widomaker.com> from "Chuck Swiger" at Jun 18, 4 05:09:26 pm Message-ID: > The only Linux cpu load/led display projects I could find work as Tony > described . > ledstatus-0.1.tar, meter-0.2.tar, and qmeter-1.0.tar all use one led & a > resistor > on each parallel port line D0-D7 (two leds not used). > > Which is disappointing because I wanted to use a big old analog radio meter ;) If you really want an analogue display (that old meter), can't you connect some resistors (maybe with series diodes) to the parallel port? If the display is a bargraph (more LEDs on for more load), then try something like this : D0 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D1 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D2 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D3 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D4 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D5 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D6 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | D7 --->|---/\/\/\-----+ | (meter) | --- /// Pick the resistors (all the same value) so that the meter gets to FSD when all the otuput bits are set. Diodes can be 1N4148 or similar. This is not going to be a precision circuit, but it should be good enough for this. If the display is just one LED on (D7 meaning more load than D0), then try making the resistor on D0 8 times that on D7, the one on D1 7 times that on F7 and so on. Again, not a precision circuit, but it'll do. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 18 20:25:22 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) References: Message-ID: <000f01c4559c$4abe9680$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:06 PM Subject: Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) > > It makes me realise that old Isaac Asimov was not too far off the mark with > > his visions of a future when no-one understood how the machines worked . > > This is a separate issue, but it worries me too. Just about everyone > these days hasn't a clue as to how anything actually works :-(. > > -tony > Welcome to large scale integration, most cards have one main chip in them anymore and nothing else. Input goes in one side, "magic happens", then you get your output. You don't have to know much about a complex car to drive one (gas goes in here, oil in there, that's about it), why should computing be different to the vast majority of computer users. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 18 20:28:30 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <200406182141.50324.lists@microvax.org> Message-ID: <20040619012830.GA17023@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 09:59:16PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don't know the one he's talking about but the most popular one all over > > the web (and the one that i've got lying around from my old mail server) > > just has 10 LEDs driven directly from the port with a common resistor. > > If that's how they did it, then it's a lot more reasonable. That works fine for showing load on a single CPU. The circuit I saw that emulated the BeBox double-bargraph is coming back to me now - *two* 4-bit resistor-ladder D-As and a bargraph generator chip for each, tune to give you some combination of 0-15 or 0-16 or 1-16 LEDs per channel (I haven't seen a real BeBox up close, so I'm not sure how they look when they are showing 'idle'). It's a harder circuit to make by hand than the simple 8 or 10-LED one that's easy to find, but when you get it working, it _is_ more impressive. Besides... for a simple load meter, there's no reason to be able to individually address the dots - the LED bargraph chip is the right tool for the job. What I can't remember is what the common part number is (it's something like LM3xxx). > And I'd probably add a buffer chip (something like an 'LS540 or 'LS541, > whichever allowed me use it as a current sinking stage (LED + resistor > returned to the +5V line). Most printer ports can supply the current > needed be LEDs, but I'd not want to risk it, if that port was part of a > difficult-to-find multi-IO chip on the motherboard. For PCs like mine, > where the printer ports are all built from TTL on add-on cards, and where > I have schematics anyway, I'd just connect the LEDs directly to the port. I'd recommend a buffer chip, too - I tried adapting one of the bargraph designs to run an analog panel meter, but only my desktop could source enough current (TTL ISA parallel-port card)... my laptop couldn't budge the needle. I gotta say that an analog load meter is pretty cool. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Jun-2004 01:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.9 F (-60.5 C) Windchill -111.3 F (-79.59 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.69 kts Grid 086 Barometer 682.7 mb (10524 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Fri Jun 18 20:37:08 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Master 5S external 5.25" floppy drive for Atari Message-ID: Can anyone give me the lowdown on this drive? I found a drive and power adapter, but no docs. There are some dips on the back. Thanks. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 18 20:23:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Places To Visit in NYC? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040618212354.008ebbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:16 PM 6/18/04 -0700, you wrote: > > >Hey, all: > >Any good places to visit in New York City?... and I should be clear that >I'm asking regarding classic-computing kinds of places, rather than MOMA >or Shea Stadium >or the hellish Disneyesque nightmare that Times Square has >become. :) Sheesh, be glad that you don't live here in central Florida, home of Dismal World! Joe From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 18 20:50:25 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: <20040618052558.GD26500@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <20040619015025.GA17852@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 08:13:01PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > Let me see if I understand this. You have a digital value (system usage), > on a digitial machine (the linux box). You convert it to analogue. You > then re-convert it to digital with a very low-res ADC (the LM3914 (I > guess) bargraph chip. Why not just output a suitable value on the > parallel port (which has 12 output lines IIRC) to directly drive the LEDs > (the 3914 drives 10 LEDs at most). It's to drive _2 sets_ of 15 or 16 LEDs from _8 bits_, since the BeBox is a dual-processor box. And, yes, the LM3914 sounds about right. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Jun-2004 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74.2 F (-59.0 C) Windchill -113.5 F (-80.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.3 kts Grid 074 Barometer 682.6 mb (10528 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 18 20:55:41 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Places To Visit in NYC? References: <3.0.6.32.20040618212354.008ebbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <002901c455a0$8725b460$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Places To Visit in NYC? > At 06:16 PM 6/18/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > >Hey, all: > > > >Any good places to visit in New York City?... and I should be clear that > >I'm asking regarding classic-computing kinds of places, rather than MOMA > >or Shea Stadium > > > >or the hellish Disneyesque nightmare that Times Square has > >become. :) > > Sheesh, be glad that you don't live here in central Florida, home of > Dismal World! > > Joe > > At least Orlando has Universal Studios, you can skip Disneyland and head there. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 18 20:55:29 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20040618165245.01edf930@wilma.widomaker.com> References: <20040618052558.GD26500@bos7.spole.gov> <5.2.1.1.1.20040618165245.01edf930@wilma.widomaker.com> Message-ID: <20040619015529.GB17852@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 18, 2004 at 05:09:26PM -0400, Chuck Swiger wrote: > The only Linux cpu load/led display projects I could find work as Tony > described ... ledstatus-0.1.tar, meter-0.2.tar, and qmeter-1.0.tar > all use one led & a resistor on each parallel port line D0-D7 Those are the commonly found ones. I really can't remember where I saw the BeBox-style one. It's been 3+ years. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 19-Jun-2004 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -74 F (-58.9 C) Windchill -113.3 F (-80.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.3 kts Grid 074 Barometer 682.5 mb (10532 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 18 20:56:54 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040618183519.H74899@newshell.lmi.net> > > > > 83 spammers have been tracked down and terminated with molten iron, > > snopes.com is good for many kinds of things, but she is a sucker > > on certain technology issues. What kind of phone system > > does 9 0 # work on? On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > What entry is that? http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/jailcall.htm > That configuration probably only worked on a specific brand of phone > system, and only if configured to allow any user to trunk transfer an > outside caller to an outbound trunk. The # would (I assume) tell the > phone system to outdial the 0 and not wait for any further digits. As stated, it won't work on ANY system. What it's based on is: 1. get the recipient to enable "three way calling" (often by a hook flash) 2. get the recipient to dial 9 for an outside line 3. get the recipient to connect with an operator 4. get the recipient to get off the three way call Steps 1 and 4 are missing from the corrupted bogus story, rendering it completely useless. TPC (The Phone Company) is aware that the instructions are WRONG, but they don't want to correct the details "for security reasons". Barbara doesn't understand what's wrong with it. It's stated that way to make it sound like some bizarre incomprehsnsible to mortals thechnological system, but it's really nothing more that social engineering. An easier way to do the exact same scam is to call Microsoft, and say, "Hi, this is Bill Gates. I'm at Starbucks and my cell battery is dead, so I have to use the payphone. Would you connect me to an outside line?" She also says that the WARNING! of the 809 scam (that people get cheated out of THOUSANDS of dollars, by being fooled into returning calls to Dial-a-porn in the virgin islands) is true, inspite of being aware that the most that ANYBODY has ever lost to that scam was on the order of $10. > > Besides, it's really true! A friend of a friend lived next to a spammer, > > and some biker dude came and burned him to death! > Yeah, I heard he was hopped up on massive doses of V!@6RA. I don't even > want to talk about what he did to the corpse! ... and the guy who was just decapitated was killed because they thought that he was a spammer. From aw288 at osfn.org Fri Jun 18 21:10:58 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Washington DC classic computing resources/museums? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The YMP and CM-5 are > both running (The CM-5 has it's idle blinkin lights happily going nuts, > while the YMP sits in a halted state due to a CPU fault). The CM-5 may have actually been powered down, as you can have the lights blink in random, independent of the processors. In fact, with the little thumbswitch inside the cabinet, you can set the operation of the blinkenlights - of the 8 combinations, 2 are semi random impress-the-bean-counters patterns, most are more or less lamp tests, and I think 2 actually have to do with the processor states (one for message routing, I think). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jun 18 21:41:34 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D3A7DE.3020609@mdrconsult.com> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > This is the second time in history that Tulip Computers BV has made > a fatal mistake in their business planning. Last time, they were DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR! DUMPING CORE...... How do you make a fatal mistake the *second* time? Doc From ghldbrd at ccp.com Fri Jun 18 22:33:11 2004 From: ghldbrd at ccp.com (Gary Hildebrand) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) References: Message-ID: <40D3B3F7.B9CF50E1@ccp.com> Jason McBrien wrote: > > How about an all-singing, all-dancing super Commodore emulator? Emulates > PET, C16, VIC20, C64, Plus4, C128, Amiga 500/1000/2000, all relevant > cartridge and expansion slots, internal IDE hard drive to store program, and > disk/tape images. > Well there are emulators for the VIC and 64, and who cares about the 128 unless you're talking cp/m. There's UAE for the PC set who want to run Amiga software. Now the cartridge/expansion slots is a whole different matter, counting all the different dimensions, etc. Let's really muddy the waters --- use UAE to run Frodo, a PC running an Amiga emulator running a C-64 emulator. Am I missing something here????? Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 18 22:44:08 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: The Future of Commodore (fwd from cbm-hackers) In-Reply-To: <40D3B3F7.B9CF50E1@ccp.com> References: <40D3B3F7.B9CF50E1@ccp.com> Message-ID: <20040618204142.N74899@newshell.lmi.net> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Gary Hildebrand wrote: > Let's really muddy the waters --- use UAE to run Frodo, a PC running an > Amiga emulator running a C-64 emulator. > Am I missing something here????? Use an Amiga running the PC emulator to run UAE to run Frodo Or use an Atari ST running Magic Sack to run Soft Windows ... From tomhudson at execpc.com Sat Jun 19 00:41:05 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Casio CFX-40 Message-ID: <40D3D1F1.4030107@execpc.com> I just found out about this list and thought I'd mention that I've just listed a Casio CFX-40 scientific calculator watch (circa 1985) on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4906266445). I bought my original CFX-40 back when they were originally sold, and started getting paranoid that it was going to die, so I bought some spares from a guy who had a few of them. Well, my original watch is still going strong, so I decided to unload one of the spares on ebay. I love this watch! My wife once joked that if anything ever happened to my CFX-40, she was worried that I'd off myself! Seriously, I told her after getting the spares that she never had to worry about getting me a Rolex or anything, because this is the only watch I would ever need, or want. When the year 2000 rolled around I was a bit concerned that it wouldn't properly deal with the calendar issues, but it never had any problem with it. Those Japanese engineers really know their stuff. I'm a programmer, and since this is the classic computer list, I thought I'd mention that my first computer was a Compucolor II, an 8080-based system with a color screen and built-in floppy drive and a whopping 32K(!) of memory. I think I kept it running for 9 months once without it blowing up. It was great -- The thing normally died fairly routinely, but I remember sitting at it one day and my mom came into the room (I was in college) and I said something about how great it was that the computer seemed to be getting more reliable. The VERY NEXT MORNING I turned it on and there was a loud SNAP! and smoke came out of it. There was no local repair center so I had to take it 180 miles to Kansas City for service. Any other Compucolor veterans out there? -Tom From evan947 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 19 00:55:46 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Places To Visit in NYC? Message-ID: <20040619055546.35641.qmail@web52802.mail.yahoo.com> I happen to like Disney World. Anyway, re: New York. There used to be a great store downtown called Computer Bookworks, but I think it's gone now. There is the famous J&R Music and Computer World, which is no Fry's, but is still a fun and large store to wander around. Across the river are the Stevens Institute of Technology (in Hoboken) and the New Jersey Institute of Technology (in Newark.) Both are easily reached by train from Manhattan. If you're interested in the history of PDAs/handheld computers, then you're welcome to contact me -- been working hard on building a nice collection. As for baseball, I highly recommend Yankee Stadium, not Shea! I am, however, a lifelong Yankees fan. :) Evan > At 06:16 PM 6/18/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > > > >Hey, all: > > > >Any good places to visit in New York City?... and I should be clear that > >I'm asking regarding classic-computing kinds of places, rather than MOMA > >or Shea Stadium > > > >or the hellish Disneyesque nightmare that Times Square has > >become. :) > > Sheesh, be glad that you don't live here in central Florida, home of > Dismal World! > > Joe > > At least Orlando has Universal Studios, you can skip Disneyland and head there. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 19 01:11:02 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: from JP Hindin at "Jun 18, 4 05:41:17 pm" Message-ID: <200406190611.XAA14586@floodgap.com> > I use Linux's /proc/stat to read CPU load, and then a extremely simple C > library ("parapin") in XS coupled to a perl script (I do better with perl > than C) to turn the lines on and off. Sort of in this vein, I wrote a cron job to dump the load average to my Apple Network Server 500's LCD screen so I can just glance at the LCD and see what the system load is, updated once a minute. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 19 02:14:36 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <20040618183519.H74899@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > > That configuration probably only worked on a specific brand of phone > > system, and only if configured to allow any user to trunk transfer an > > outside caller to an outbound trunk. The # would (I assume) tell the > > phone system to outdial the 0 and not wait for any further digits. > > As stated, it won't work on ANY system. But then, this scam was originally started by inmates calling businesses from jail, and I think it morphed into people thinking it could work on any phone, which is just an example of the ignorance of the masses. It CAN work on a system that has the capabilities and is properly programmed. But this is perhaps less than .1% of all existing phone system installations. > What it's based on is: > 1. get the recipient to enable "three way calling" (often by a hook flash) > 2. get the recipient to dial 9 for an outside line > 3. get the recipient to connect with an operator > 4. get the recipient to get off the three way call I should mention that in my home you ARE required to dial a 9 to get an outside line :) Furthermore, my PBX is configured for trunk-to-trunk calling, but this is so I can make calls from a payphone through the toll free number that rings into my auto attendant system and have it charged to my home phone. However, my voicemail is password protected, and no one in my household is dumb enough to dial 9 0 # for some random "phone company employee" (and it won't work anyway based on the class of service I have programmed for the normal extensions throughout the house). > An easier way to do the exact same scam is to call > Microsoft, and say, "Hi, this is Bill Gates. I'm > at Starbucks and my cell battery is dead, so I have > to use the payphone. Would you connect me to an > outside line?" Except that as I stated before, most phone systems are configured to not allow a regular phone station the ability to transfer an incoming trunk call to an outgoing trunk (precisely for reasons of fraud). But, with some phone systems, if you get transfered to an inside party and then have that party transfer you back to the operator, chances are your call type will now show as an internal call, and the operator or receptionist may think you are an employee calling from within the office. You can then "social engineer" them into outdialing a call for you. But with tolls so cheap today, it seems it's quite a waste of time to go through all that trouble just to make a call. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sat Jun 19 02:22:55 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Casio CFX-40 In-Reply-To: <40D3D1F1.4030107@execpc.com> References: <40D3D1F1.4030107@execpc.com> Message-ID: <7BAB8D0D-C1C1-11D8-8D41-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> On Jun 18, 2004, at 10:41 PM, Tom Hudson wrote: Hey! another HUDSON! Tom, Got any relatives out west? From stanb at dial.pipex.com Fri Jun 18 15:28:09 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 18 Jun 2004 20:13:01 BST." Message-ID: <200406182028.VAA23347@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > Why not just output a suitable value on the > parallel port (which has 12 output lines IIRC) to directly drive the LEDs That's pretty much how the display for the E11 PDP-11 emulator works. It drives 8 LEDs when /STROBE is asserted and another 8 when /INIT is asserted. This gives a 16-LED display by switching radidly between the 2 sets of LEDs. I have the lights fitted in a spare disk blanking plate on the front of my 486 "fake" PDP-11. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From charlesb at otcgaming.net Sat Jun 19 05:03:50 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... References: <40D20183.6080708@frixxon.co.uk><005d01c4556f$4ab17090$0100a8c0@thunder> <40D3568B.1030402@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <00df01c455e5$6d6a20c0$0100a8c0@thunder> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Williams" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:54 PM Subject: Re: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... > charlesb@otcgaming.net wrote: > > > > There you go paul, i've emailed you the headers from two emails... > > Thank you. In fact the entire list thanks you, as that's where you sent > them :-) oops... my bad... sorry every1. > > > For the benefit of the others, they are: - > > > > msg 1: Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> > > msg 2: Message-Id: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> > > > > as you can see they have both the same message id.... however one came @ 14:47 and the 2nd one @ 16:47 (all times UK - EST +5) > > One of those was sent to cctalk, and one was sent to cctech, so there is > no mystery here, sorry! The second one, to cctech, was delayed because > all posts to cctech have to be moderated, and that happened at 16:44. > Sorry folks, this is the last time I'll respond on-list about this. yea that was my bad, was meant to be off list. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 19 07:27:42 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Places To Visit in NYC? In-Reply-To: <002901c455a0$8725b460$0500fea9@game> References: <3.0.6.32.20040618212354.008ebbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040619082742.008ebda0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:55 PM 6/18/04 -0400, you wrote: > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe R." >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:23 PM >Subject: Re: Places To Visit in NYC? > > >> At 06:16 PM 6/18/04 -0700, you wrote: >> > >> > >> >Hey, all: >> > >> >Any good places to visit in New York City?... and I should be clear that >> >I'm asking regarding classic-computing kinds of places, rather than MOMA >> >or Shea Stadium >> >> >> >or the hellish Disneyesque nightmare that Times Square has >> >become. :) >> >> Sheesh, be glad that you don't live here in central Florida, home of >> Dismal World! >> >> Joe >> >> >At least Orlando has Universal Studios, you can skip Disneyland and head >there. I CAN'T skip Dismal World. It effects the entire region. Everything to over-loaded road systems and idiot tourist drivers to excessive water usage to minimum wage service jobs. It's become the mouse that ate Orlando. Joe > > > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sat Jun 19 08:39:08 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell >>> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 3:13 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: Modern Blinkenlights >>> >>> > I've seen a pretty easy-to-build circuit to put one of those on a >>> > Linux box. I remember something about a simple resistor ladder >>> > network D-A and an LED bargraph chip from Radio Shack. >>> The software >>> > just puts the load on a spare parallel port, so it's >>> pretty low-impact. >>> >>> Are you serious? If so, I have to wonder if anyone can >>> actually _design_ any more, or if they just throw standard >>> modules together and hope it works. >>> >>> Let me see if I understand this. You have a digital value >>> (system usage), on a digitial machine (the linux box). You >>> convert it to analogue. You then re-convert it to digital >>> with a very low-res ADC (the LM3914 (I >>> guess) bargraph chip. Why not just output a suitable value >>> on the parallel port (which has 12 output lines IIRC) to >>> directly drive the LEDs (the 3914 drives 10 LEDs at most). >>> >>> -tony >>> The conversion from digital to analog and back provides second order effects. Your design (straight off the original bits) is simplistic. The modern world requires overcomplication in all things <....ducking and running....> David From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 19 09:55:46 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: OT : Tektronix 475A Scope... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006401c4560d$80ad4860$5b01a8c0@athlon> > A great site for old test equipment is > . If the US > Military had > it as a standard piece of equipment they will have the > manuals on-line. > Both TM 11-6625-2735-14-1 and TM 11-6625-2735-24P-1 are on line and > cover the Tek 475. Good luck gathering the smoke... They also seem to have Tek 2645 stuff online, but, unless I'm doing something wrong, it wants a login. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 19 15:42:45 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040619130936.L87094@newshell.lmi.net> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: [9 0 #] > But then, this scam was originally started by inmates calling businesses > from jail, and I think it morphed into people thinking it could work on > any phone, which is just an example of the ignorance of the masses. It Actually, it started with a verifiable incident at a naval installation in New Orleans. The ORIGINAL story was close to correct: > Service Technician that was running a test on our telephone > lines. He stated that to complete the test the QMOW should > [snip] "touch the LINE key [for an outside line], then" [snip] > touch nine (9), zero (0), pound sign (#) and hang up. >From there it was deliberately corrupted into something that can only be called a hoax. Miscreants who didn't even understand the concept of "three-way-calling with an outside line" rewrote it, dropping the traceback, supplying a first person story of it happening on a residential system, turning the simple idea of "3-way with outside line" into a "technological mystery incomprehensible to normal mortals" (tm) and put in the bullshit about inmates as part of the DANGER! DANGER! hook. One version of the social virus says that the evildoers have some sort of magical machine that lets them take control of your account when you press those numbers. And, most versions of that social virus explicitly say that it is a DANGER to everybody's home line. They've even created a new version that claims that the evildoers can use it against your cell phone. How many people (other than Sellam) have multiple line mobile phones? The assholes who take a legitimate story of a minor problem, and turn it into a "pass this on to everybody who you care about" WARNING! are worse than conventional spammers. They take conscious lusers and zombify them into replicating their virus. There is a pretty decent discussion of that particular hoax at http://www.korova.com/virus/hoax980212.htm there's even a non-HTML version! : http://www.korova.com/ascii/kmr8003.txt > CAN work on a system that has the capabilities and is properly programmed. > But this is perhaps less than .1% of all existing phone system > installations. You know far more about phone systems than I do. But is there ANY system that will initiate 3-way-calling just by pressing 9 during a conversation? Wouldn't there have to be some sort of hook-flash or line button? What would prevent the CALLER from DTMF control of the system? > But with tolls so cheap today, it seems it's quite a waste of time to go > through all that trouble just to make a call. But that doesn't stop the resurfacing of the WARNING!s that tell you that inmates or other lowlifes are going to cheat you out of THOUSANDS of dollars. The Spamminator (spammercidal maniac) has been tracking them down. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 16:28:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:38 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <000f01c4559c$4abe9680$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 18, 4 09:25:22 pm Message-ID: > > This is a separate issue, but it worries me too. Just about everyone > > these days hasn't a clue as to how anything actually works :-(. > > > > -tony > > > Welcome to large scale integration, most cards have one main chip in them > anymore and nothing else. Input goes in one side, "magic happens", then you That has _nothing_ to do with it. Somebody has to design those chips!. It is possible to understand how they work. > get your output. You don't have to know much about a complex car to drive > one (gas goes in here, oil in there, that's about it), why should computing This may partially explain the lethal driving I see around here :-(... It propably won't suprise you that although I don't drive, I have no problem repairing cars (old or modern). They're not that complicated. Heck, I'll have a go at repairing _anything_... > be different to the vast majority of computer users. It's the absolute, not relative number that bothers me. What I mean is that years ago (for large n) there were A clueful users and B clueless ones (with B being fairly small). Now there are C clueful users and D cluelss ones. I think everyone agrees that D is larger than B (the number of non-knowledgeable users has certainly gone up). But IMHO C is less than A -- the number of clueful users has actually gone down in absolute terms. There is of course the other issue that anyone who uses something without properly understanding it is liable to make a right fool of themselves or worse.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 16:33:16 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: <20040619012830.GA17023@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 19, 4 01:28:30 am Message-ID: > That works fine for showing load on a single CPU. The circuit I saw that > emulated the BeBox double-bargraph is coming back to me now - *two* 4-bit > resistor-ladder D-As and a bargraph generator chip for each, tune to give Err, is it beyond thw wit of modern designers to decode a 4 bit value to drive 16 LEDs using a purely digital circuit. > you some combination of 0-15 or 0-16 or 1-16 LEDs per channel (I haven't Every LED bargraph chip I've seen drives 10 LEDs. > seen a real BeBox up close, so I'm not sure how they look when they are > showing 'idle'). > > It's a harder circuit to make by hand than the simple 8 or 10-LED one This is not exactly hard to design. To do it purely digitially, you can use a 4 line to 16 line decoder (e.g. a 74x154) if you want 'dot' mode. To do 'bar' mode, it's a simple exercise to design the logic, and if you like burn it into a PAL (or PROM, or...). > that's easy to find, but when you get it working, it _is_ more impressive. > > Besides... for a simple load meter, there's no reason to be able to > individually address the dots - the LED bargraph chip is the right tool Not it isn't IMHO... I suppose if you want to multiply an 8 bit value by 3, you'd put it into a DAC, then into an op-amp configured as a *3 non-inverting amplifer, then into an ADC, right? > for the job. What I can't remember is what the common part number is > (it's something like LM3xxx). > LM3914 for the linear one. There's also the LM3915 and LM3916 which have various flavours of logarithmic scale. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 19 17:18:19 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> > That has _nothing_ to do with it. Somebody has to design > those chips!. It > is possible to understand how they work. It seems to me self-evident that *someone* does understand how any one of those chips works - they just didn't tell the rest of us. In the "old" days, DEC used to produce technical manuals for pretty much everything and the manual was shipped with the product. If you bought a DSV-11 you got the tech manual and an installation manual etc. If you go slightly further back, to the early 1980s, you were almost certain to end up with schematics too. This meant someone had to pay to get these items produced and that someone was the customer. Some time in the mid 1980s, someone at DEC realised that the customer base had shifted slightly and most customers had no use for these manuals. So they were not routinely shipped, but were available if you paid for them. These days the number of customers who would order such manuals is much smaller so producing them is rarely cost-effective. (They are pretty expensive to produce properly). > This may partially explain the lethal driving I see around here :-(... I'm not sure that car mechanics have any better a track record than the average motorist :-) > It propably won't suprise you that although I don't drive, I have no > problem repairing cars (old or modern). They're not that complicated. > Heck, I'll have a go at repairing _anything_... I think modern cars might be a bit more complicated than those from say twenty years ago, but only because they have more in them to go wrong. Getting hold of diagnostics from engine management units seems to be pretty hard, but it's not often required. > It's the absolute, not relative number that bothers me. What > I mean is > that years ago (for large n) there were A clueful users and B > clueless ones (with B being fairly small). Now there are C > clueful users > and D cluelss ones. I think everyone agrees that D is larger > than B (the > number of non-knowledgeable users has certainly gone up). But > IMHO C is > less than A -- the number of clueful users has actually gone down in > absolute terms. I suspect that C has actually gone up (or your standards for the entry bar into C have). There are many more people around now (that I know) who can fix their PC or fix their radio or fix their car. (Maybe the number for "fix the car" is no greater in my case, since most of the people I knew n years ago could not afford to take their car to the local garage for a service or something minor like changing the brake pads etc). > There is of course the other issue that anyone who uses > something without > properly understanding it is liable to make a right fool of > themselves or > worse.... "worse" being that they give it away to someone like me :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jun 19 17:40:08 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: DEC Technical Journals - F.A. Message-ID: <008101c4564e$5fdb1e50$5b01a8c0@athlon> I'm auctioning some excess (duplicate) DEC Technical Journals and a few duplicate DEC manuals: http://cgi6.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&include=0& userid=dampingwire&sort=2&rows=100&since=-1&rd=1 That will probably wrap horribly, so just search for seller dampingwire. The ones that might interest this list are - the "VAX 8600" - the "MicroVAX II" and - the "Internet and Performance". That last one has an article by Max Burnett and Bob Supnik that covers computer preservation (PDPs etc) and emulation (SIMH). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From vrs at msn.com Sat Jun 19 18:37:15 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) References: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > It seems to me self-evident that *someone* does > understand how any one of those chips works - > they just didn't tell the rest of us. Though I agree with most of your points, I think it is only self-evident that someone *once* understood how any one of those chips works. It is possible (and likely, once a couple of years have passed), that the information about how it was done then has vanished, even from the hands of those who once knew. Vince From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 19 18:53:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <004401c45658$8e950c60$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "vrs" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 7:37 PM Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) > > It seems to me self-evident that *someone* does > > understand how any one of those chips works - > > they just didn't tell the rest of us. > > Though I agree with most of your points, I think it is only self-evident > that someone *once* understood how any one of those chips works. > > It is possible (and likely, once a couple of years have passed), that the > information about how it was done then has vanished, even from the hands of > those who once knew. > > Vince > Chips are designed by a group of people these days, not by one individual. These groups are split up for other projects when the first one is over , quit and find new jobs, or just get laid off and scatter to the wind. They leave behind the blueprints needed to manufacture the part, operating parameters, bug notes, etc so the knowledge of what the part does is still with the company and is transferred if the company is sold or goes chapter 11. The problems come when the chip is no longer commercially sold or supported, things tend to get lost. From vrs at msn.com Sat Jun 19 19:55:54 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> <004401c45658$8e950c60$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > Chips are designed by a group of people these days, not by one individual. If it is a real chip design, and not just a big PLD. > These groups are split up for other projects when the first one is over , > quit and find new jobs, or just get laid off and scatter to the wind. They > leave behind the blueprints needed to manufacture the part, operating > parameters, bug notes, etc so the knowledge of what the part does is still > with the company and is transferred if the company is sold or goes chapter > 11. The problems come when the chip is no longer commercially sold or > supported, things tend to get lost. I don't think the IP is reliably transferred once the team is disbanded, let alone through a chapter 11. Often only the legal "rights" persist in a useable form. Manufacturing data may not include enough data to reconstruct "how it works". The lifetimes of new designs (say, for a piece of consumer electronics), are generally quite short. Vince From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 19 21:37:13 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) In-Reply-To: References: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040619223713.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:37 PM 6/19/04 -0700, you wrote: > >> It seems to me self-evident that *someone* does >> understand how any one of those chips works - >> they just didn't tell the rest of us. It's worse than that. Most people in electronics today don't even have a good understanding of basic components such as diodes, transistors, capacitors etc. A good example was the guy on this list that claimed voltage didn't matter in a power supply, only current. VERY few of the people that I know that have Electrical Engineering degrees can even read a color code or can identify simple parts such as a resistor from a diode. I think it won't be long before there are a few smart people working for big companies that will design everything and then lots and lots of parts changers that don't know anything except how to repalce parts. I guess the current PC market place is a perfect example of that. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 19 21:43:19 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040619224319.008ae870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi, I have a couple of the MIT Radiation Laboratory electronics books that were published in the late 1940s and I'd like to get the rest of them. Does anyone have any of them that they're willing to part with? Joe From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 22:06:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 19, 4 11:18:19 pm Message-ID: > In the "old" days, DEC used to produce technical > manuals for pretty much everything and the manual The fact that people will actually buy something without a technical manual somewhat suprises me, but anyway.... > were available if you paid for them. These days > the number of customers who would order such manuals > is much smaller so producing them is rarely cost-effective. > (They are pretty expensive to produce properly). Problem is that the information now is often not available in _any_ form A few notes of the program-accessible registers, pinouts, etc would be a great help -- I don't need all the words that go between them. I've produced repair information for older stuff (not all in one LSI ASIC) and it generally consists of connector diagrams, schematics, and not much more. The DEC (and HP, and...) technical manuals were great, but probably about 10 times as thick as they needed to be. > > > This may partially explain the lethal driving I see around here :-(... > > I'm not sure that car mechanics have any better a track > record than the average motorist :-) Who said anything about garage mechanics understanding cars??? Round here that's the last sort of person I'd let loose on any vehicle I expected to travel in! > > > It propably won't suprise you that although I don't drive, I have no > > problem repairing cars (old or modern). They're not that complicated. > > Heck, I'll have a go at repairing _anything_... > > I think modern cars might be a bit more complicated > than those from say twenty years ago, but only because > they have more in them to go wrong. Getting hold of Yes, lots od bells and whistles that aren't really essential :-(. > > It's the absolute, not relative number that bothers me. What > > I mean is > > that years ago (for large n) there were A clueful users and B > > clueless ones (with B being fairly small). Now there are C > > clueful users > > and D cluelss ones. I think everyone agrees that D is larger > > than B (the > > number of non-knowledgeable users has certainly gone up). But > > IMHO C is > > less than A -- the number of clueful users has actually gone down in > > absolute terms. > > I suspect that C has actually gone up (or your standards for > the entry bar into C have). There are many more people around I am darn sure it hasn't, but anyway... > now (that I know) who can fix their PC or fix their radio > or fix their car. (Maybe the number for "fix the car" is Take one look at the sort of 'technical' magazines you get in, say, W. H. Smith and compare them with the ones available 10 or 20 years ago. The number of such publications has gone down, the complexity has also gone down. The number of shops selling tools, components, metalwork stuff, car parts, etc has also gone down. If more people were doing this sort of thing then surely there's be a market for the materials to do it. -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sat Jun 19 22:12:41 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Spammercide (was: Duplicate Posts - Burst Posts... In-Reply-To: <20040619130936.L87094@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > and put in the bullshit about inmates as part of the > DANGER! DANGER! hook. Trust me, inmates have attempted this and other scams and have gotten away with them on plenty of occasions. But that would've been years ago when inmate phone systems weren't as secure and locked down as they are now. > You know far more about phone systems than I do. > But is there ANY system that will initiate 3-way-calling > just by pressing 9 during a conversation? Technically it's possible, but I don't know of any phone system that works like that. At any rate, that's what the flash hook is for. I'm pretty sure the hoax calls for flash hook and then dialing a nine. So the entire hoax is based on the assumption that you're calling an office with a PBX installed (or even Centrex phone lines, which are lines provided by the local telco that have PBX type features). > Wouldn't there have to be some sort of hook-flash or line button? What > would prevent the CALLER from DTMF control of the system? I think the hoax implies a flash hook or something, even though it's not explicitly stated. However, you should know that it is possible to discern remote touch tones from locally generated touch tones. There are a number of methods. On many digital phone systems, the keypresses on the number pad are transmitted as digital codes over either a separate wire pair or out of band signal. So in theory, you could program the number keys to be active during a conversation. Also, it is possible to filter out remote DTMF in a way. You can do that by dB levels. I know that one phone system I work with has very poor DTMF detection on incoming trunks, so that trying to set up a DISA (Direct Inward System Access, i.e. programming a trunk on the phone system that you can dial in to, enter an access code, then dial back out of or access other features of the PBX) is useless because it cannot detect DTMF from a remote telco CO, but it can if you are calling through the local CO. It has to do with dB levels and poor design. Another phone system I've worked with (Siemens Saturn) did not have this problem. Anyway, this is just to illustrate that it is technically feasible, though not entirely desirable. > But that doesn't stop the resurfacing of the WARNING!s > that tell you that inmates or other lowlifes are going > to cheat you out of THOUSANDS of dollars. Well, they are :) Inmates have nothing to do all day. They've got a phone in their cell and they're going to use it. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 22:10:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040619224319.008ae870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 19, 4 10:43:19 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I have a couple of the MIT Radiation Laboratory electronics books that > were published in the late 1940s and I'd like to get the rest of them. Does > anyone have any of them that they're willing to part with? If anyone in the UK has 'spares' of this series, I'm looking for most of them too (I think I have 4 of the 28 or so volumes so far). Incidentally, according to the preface, these books are now public domain (they became public domain 10 years after the publication date). I am suprised nobody has scanned them yet. They really are excellent books on radar and related electronics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 22:14:32 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040619223713.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 19, 4 10:37:13 pm Message-ID: > > It's worse than that. Most people in electronics today don't even have a > good understanding of basic components such as diodes, transistors, > capacitors etc. A good example was the guy on this list that claimed A lot of people don't understand _wire_ properly ;-). Of course that is one of the most complex parts of your circuit in general. > voltage didn't matter in a power supply, only current. VERY few of the I once had a row with an idiot who decided that the 100 off 100nF decoupling capacitors I'd shown across the supply lines (this was a large board...) could be replaced by a single 10uF electrolytic mear the power connector. This was on a board of ECL clocking at 100+ MHz..... > people that I know that have Electrical Engineering degrees can even read a > color code or can identify simple parts such as a resistor from a diode. I Most people with EE degrees over here can find and solve the equations a lot better than I can, but have no idea what they mean, or why they're applicable, or what the components actually are. Somebody once asked me for a 362.8 ohm (or something like that) resistor to use as an LED current limiter because that's what the formula had told him to use... -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 19 22:26:20 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <008001c4564b$53a27c30$5b01a8c0@athlon> <3.0.6.32.20040619223713.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <007101c45676$5b129290$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:37 PM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) > At 04:37 PM 6/19/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > >> It seems to me self-evident that *someone* does > >> understand how any one of those chips works - > >> they just didn't tell the rest of us. > > It's worse than that. Most people in electronics today don't even have a > good understanding of basic components such as diodes, transistors, > capacitors etc. A good example was the guy on this list that claimed > voltage didn't matter in a power supply, only current. VERY few of the > people that I know that have Electrical Engineering degrees can even read a > color code or can identify simple parts such as a resistor from a diode. I > think it won't be long before there are a few smart people working for big > companies that will design everything and then lots and lots of parts > changers that don't know anything except how to repalce parts. I guess the > current PC market place is a perfect example of that. > > Joe > > People get too specialized these days. If you ever worked for a process equipment manufacturer of any type you will have been bombarded with calls from well educated people asking the most basic engineering questions somebody without a finished degree would know. The school I went to would not pass an EE is he didn't know the resister color codes in his head, but that was in the late 80's early 90's. To be honest most EE's today only know a resister by the icon used in SPICE type programs, very few actually touch the things anymore since that's all done by technicians. The best engineers actually go on the floor sometimes and get their hands dirty. Small companies allow a designer to be involved in every facet of design, production, QC, and customer returns while in a larger company your insulated from all of that unless there is a huge fuckup that somehow comes back to you in the paper trail. Every generation of engineer graduating school has less overall knowledge then the ones before them since they have more layers of equipment and software between them and the process they are working on. Too much time is spent on teaching how to use a complex tool then what's going on inside of the process itself. When I was in college studying chemical engineering I had to crawl around real heat exchangers, learn how to play with live steam, work on a real 2 story distillation column, run material through industrial dryers, read stripcharts, weigh chemicals precisely before chucking them into a reactor, worry about thermocouple placement (and what type to use), etc. People that graduate now sit in front of a PC and play with ChemCAD and type in numbers. What you have now is allot of people who know allot about their small chunk in a device and nothing about what happens before or after their section. Nobody knows how the whole completed device really works in detail. From aw288 at osfn.org Sat Jun 19 22:47:30 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <007101c45676$5b129290$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > People get too specialized these days. These day, you have to be specialized. There is little in the market for "jack of all trades" EEs. Those days are gone, except in very small companies doing fairly simple devices. > The school I went to would > not pass an EE is he didn't know the resister color codes in his head, but > that was in the late 80's early 90's. To be honest most EE's today only know > a resister by the icon used in SPICE type programs, very few actually touch > the things anymore since that's all done by technicians. The color code is obsolete. SMDs very rarely use color codes. Someone wise once told me what engineering school is all about (yes, I have an engineering degree, by the way, although I don't use it anymore) - two things: 1) You learn how to be an engineer. How to think out a problem, how to plan, how to execute it. 2) You learn how far you can push yourself. In my case, it was an operating systems class (towards the end, you pull at least four allnighters a week). That is it. Everything else is just not very important. The basics are important to learn, just so you can get by and have a clue when you get out in the real world (and by basics, I mean *basics*). But most of what you learn never gets used in the real world. The first year or two in a real job, you start to "learn the ropes", doing relatively unimportant tasks, often with an invisible (or visible) mentor. No engineering firm in their right mind would put a rookie on an important part of a project. By the second year, you make the jump if you can - all of a sudden you are a "grown up" engineer (often reflected in a pretty good raise). Also, by the second year, all that stuff in school just doesn't matter anymore - grades, classes, theory, and so forth. > Every generation of engineer graduating > school has less overall knowledge then the ones before them since they have > more layers of equipment and software between them and the process they are > working on. This is part of the "problem" (I don't see this as a problem, by the way. The engineering field has changed in the past 20 years, Just as it radically changed the 20 years before that, and the 20 years before that, and the 20 years...). If we didn't have the tools, we would not have all the neat-o gadgets we have today. > What you have now is allot of people who know allot about their small chunk > in a device and nothing about what happens before or after their section. > Nobody knows how the whole completed device really works in detail. For many things - nobody can know the "whole picture" in detail. Even something as simple as a video card - how many gates are in the thing? A million? Asking someone to know what most of them do is just inconceivable. Anyway, once again the tools do most of the thinking. That is what they are for. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jun 19 22:03:42 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Unexpected Find Message-ID: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> I'm always a bit green with jealousy when I read a post where someone announces a great find. I can't help but thinking "That's nice for you but stop rubbing it in." Well, I can't help but relate that today I was sorting through some magazines and papers trying to get my office/workshop in order when I found a Cardiac. I still don't know where I got it, but needless to say, it made my day. A little later I carried it into another room in my outstretched hands. My daughter asked what I had and my wife said "apparently the Holy Grail." Rarely a truer word... Brian L. Stuart From cvisors at gmail.com Sat Jun 19 23:23:38 2004 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: New finds. Silicon Graphics Personal iris. Message-ID: Hi all, its been a while since I have had a decent find of some good machines, but anyway yesterday I got given two personal IRISes. One seems to be dead, as it doesn't seem to pass the diagnostics, the other well it will boot, but the os is hosed on one of the disks, and refuses to boot into single user mode. The other disk which has a realy old version of IRIX (3.3.1) is at the moment attempting to boot, I have got the UNIX copywrite boiler plate, followed by the version of IRIX it's trying to boot, but nothing else.. But it seems to be going through a file system check, as the drive light is pretty much on solid (well its pulsing) , but this has been going on for a few hours. And as I have no idea how long fsck would take on one of these older machines I plan to leave it running for a while to see if it will get anywhere. The other cool things I got with this machine, are manuals galore (Including the Personal Iris Owner's Guide). And one of the installation tapes. (But no tape drive) Does anyone know where one can source the older versions of IRIX for these machines, be it cd or tape images? I know this machine could run IRIX 5.3 which one could get off ebay, but as this machine only has 16 meg of ram, I would prefer to run one of the older versions of IRIX on it, be it 3.x.x or 4.x.x as I haven't ever realy played round with these older versions of UNIX before. Benjamin -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sat Jun 19 23:09:22 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040619223713.008e6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620000922.00930870@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 04:14 AM 6/20/04 +0100, Tony wrote: > >> >> It's worse than that. Most people in electronics today don't even have a >> good understanding of basic components such as diodes, transistors, >> capacitors etc. A good example was the guy on this list that claimed > >A lot of people don't understand _wire_ properly ;-). Of course that is >one of the most complex parts of your circuit in general. > >> voltage didn't matter in a power supply, only current. VERY few of the > >I once had a row with an idiot who decided that the 100 off 100nF >decoupling capacitors I'd shown across the supply lines (this was a large >board...) could be replaced by a single 10uF electrolytic mear the power >connector. This was on a board of ECL clocking at 100+ MHz..... > >> people that I know that have Electrical Engineering degrees can even read a >> color code or can identify simple parts such as a resistor from a diode. I > >Most people with EE degrees over here can find and solve the equations a >lot better than I can, but have no idea what they mean, or why they're >applicable, or what the components actually are. Somebody once asked me >for a 362.8 ohm (or something like that) resistor to use as an LED >current limiter because that's what the formula had told him to use... > I've had exactly the same things happen here. I wonder if it's this bad in all the MODERN countries? Joe From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 19 23:28:29 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Blinkenlights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406200433.AAA26573@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > This is not exactly hard to design. To do it purely digitially, you > can use a 4 line to 16 line decoder (e.g. a 74x154) if you want 'dot' > mode. To do 'bar' mode, it's a simple exercise to design the logic, > and if you like burn it into a PAL (or PROM, or...). PAL? PROM? What overkill. What's wrong with diodes and wire-OR? Well, besides needing 136 diodes, I suppose. :-) Or somewhat fewer if you apply a little intelligence; I can bring it down to somewhere near 110 without much trouble, probably further with a bit more thought (and/or a bit more additional logic). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 19 23:49:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: Message-ID: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 11:47 PM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) > > People get too specialized these days. > > These day, you have to be specialized. There is little in the market for > "jack of all trades" EEs. Those days are gone, except in very small > companies doing fairly simple devices. > > > The school I went to would > > not pass an EE is he didn't know the resister color codes in his head, but > > that was in the late 80's early 90's. To be honest most EE's today only know > > a resister by the icon used in SPICE type programs, very few actually touch > > the things anymore since that's all done by technicians. > > The color code is obsolete. SMDs very rarely use color codes. > > Someone wise once told me what engineering school is all about (yes, I > have an engineering degree, by the way, although I don't use it anymore) - > two things: > > 1) You learn how to be an engineer. How to think out a problem, how to > plan, how to execute it. > > 2) You learn how far you can push yourself. In my case, it was an > operating systems class (towards the end, you pull at least four > allnighters a week). > > That is it. Everything else is just not very important. > > The basics are important to learn, just so you can get by and have a clue > when you get out in the real world (and by basics, I mean *basics*). But > most of what you learn never gets used in the real world. The first year > or two in a real job, you start to "learn the ropes", doing relatively > unimportant tasks, often with an invisible (or visible) mentor. No > engineering firm in their right mind would put a rookie on an important > part of a project. By the second year, you make the jump if you can - all > of a sudden you are a "grown up" engineer (often reflected in a pretty > good raise). Also, by the second year, all that stuff in school just > doesn't matter anymore - grades, classes, theory, and so forth. > > > Every generation of engineer graduating > > school has less overall knowledge then the ones before them since they have > > more layers of equipment and software between them and the process they are > > working on. > > This is part of the "problem" (I don't see this as a problem, by the > way. The engineering field has changed in the past 20 years, Just as it > radically changed the 20 years before that, and the 20 years before that, > and the 20 years...). If we didn't have the tools, we would not have all > the neat-o gadgets we have today. > > > What you have now is allot of people who know allot about their small chunk > > in a device and nothing about what happens before or after their section. > > Nobody knows how the whole completed device really works in detail. > > For many things - nobody can know the "whole picture" in detail. Even > something as simple as a video card - how many gates are in the thing? A > million? Asking someone to know what most of them do is just > inconceivable. Anyway, once again the tools do most of the thinking. That > is what they are for. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some knowledge of what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives you is wrong (maybe you didn't feed the tool enough information, forgot something, or there is a bug in the program, etc). Lots of solutions that look good on a computer end up not working great in the field because of many things that are not modeled in your tool. Bridges fall, roofs cave in, microchips short out, etc not because the tools were wrong, but because when things get too big or too small other forces that normally don't matter come into play. The only thing that really changes in engineering is we have new materials, controls, and better detailed models to play with, the basics you learned in school don't change much if at all. Without the basics the tools are just a good quick way to make a mess of things. Somebody who knows what's going on can jump from tool to tool, if you just know how to use one particular tool then your in trouble. The most important things I learned in college is how to deal with people you might not like but have to work with, the basics of the field I was in (that you DO use believe it or not for the rest of your life), and how to solve problems you never seen before in a logical way. The fringe classes I took in college might not have been directly used by me in my job, but they were useful in giving me a perspective of what the other disciplines needed to know from me to get their part of the job done. Specialization is ok if you like doing just one thing and don't mind being out of a profession when your specialty is obsolete (especially in any programming or electronics field). A few people do know what the chip in a video cards does step by step, if they didn't they could not design the part to begin with. Just because there are a million gates in the part doesn't mean each one is doing something totally different. Tools just do the time consuming calculations, you still have to tell them step by step what to do so I would not say they do all the thinking. Then you have the fun of taking your model and figuring out a way to build, control, repair, and package it which is a whole job in itself. From nico at farumdata.dk Sat Jun 19 23:49:52 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Unexpected Find References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <002101c45682$06d2c4f0$2201a8c0@finans> > I found a Cardiac. I > still don't know where I got it, but needless to say, > it made my day. Obviously it didnt arrest you :-) Nico (Sorry if it should had been speeld some other way) --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07-06-2004 From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 20 00:35:27 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: > Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some knowledge of > what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives you is wrong (maybe > you didn't feed the tool enough information, forgot something, or there is a > bug in the program, etc). Obviously you have to know *something*. I wouldn't expect an accountant to make a video card, nor an engineer to do an estate plan. > Lots of solutions that look good on a computer end > up not working great in the field because of many things that are not > modeled in your tool. I am not arguing this point. I have plenty of experience on the manufacturing floor to know all about this (a classic example is mechanical interference of parts on a circuit assembly). I should say that modelling is getting much better all of the time, and there may be a day when "the real world" is simulated very nicely inside a model. > (that you DO use believe it or not for the rest of your life) Yes, some you use (I did say "*basics*"), but many, no. Look at something like Transistors 101. Most engineers never use all of the small signal math - when they need a transistor, they just pick one of of a book, and more often than not, just use a canned circuit (maybe even the one in the book!). Same with computer architecture - engineers pick microprocessors out of a databook or macros out of a library, but they don't sit down and start thinking about how many registers to have, and how the microcode will work, and how many function the ALU will have, and an endless list of other variables one has to deal with when designing a microproccessor.. > Specialization is ok if you like doing just one thing and don't mind being > out of a profession when your specialty is obsolete (especially in any > programming or electronics field). Lets not go overboard here. Engineers are supposed to change. Do not forget that in the electronics field, an engineer that does not keep up with the times is a dead engineer. However, if you are specialized in a field, and you need to change jobs, specialization is a very good thing to have on a resume if the specialization fits the job. "Jack of all trades" engineers that are really good at everything are pretty rare - always have been. Engineering managers and HR people know this, so being too versatile can be a liability. > Tools just do the time consuming calculations, you still > have to tell them step by step what to do so I would not say they do all the > thinking. Well, not all the thinking (maybe a bad word on my part). For example, these days with all the HDLs out there, you tell two variables to add themselves, rather than design an adder. Gate level design is a dying, almost dead, profession, reserved for relatively few (read: mega-optimized) applications. In reference to the "step by step" aspect, those steps are getting pretty wide, and are getting wider all of the time. I think this is the root of this whole discussion - people are lamenting the days when the steps were tiny, or did not exist at all, so an engineer had to know all aspects of a design. This is simply not the case in this age. Teaching kids to take little steps will only result in engineering projects that never get completed in the real world. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 20 00:40:32 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: L @@K RARE MINIVAC 601, 1961 COMPUTER, UNIVAC, EXC L@@K Message-ID: <001201c45689$1a331480$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> L@@K RARE MINIVAC 601, 1961 COMPUTER, UNIVAC, EXC L@@K wow... some one shure choked this down for 600+ bucks.. silly me I thought they were $300 high! Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Sun Jun 20 00:43:58 2004 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books References: Message-ID: <012301c45689$9693bf70$6a00a8c0@athlon> I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did quite a few) Are there other editions? I have several of the Dover reprints. Last time I looked in the local engineering library a year or so ago, the set of hard cover originals I used to use on occasions were still there-though with the way things are going they will probably get tossed out one of these days. I think I have a couple of duplicates among the Dover ones I have- if those are of interest I'll have a look and confirm details. DaveB Christchurch, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 3:10 PM Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > > > > Hi, > > > > I have a couple of the MIT Radiation Laboratory electronics books that > > were published in the late 1940s and I'd like to get the rest of them. Does > > anyone have any of them that they're willing to part with? > > If anyone in the UK has 'spares' of this series, I'm looking for most of > them too (I think I have 4 of the 28 or so volumes so far). > > Incidentally, according to the preface, these books are now public domain > (they became public domain 10 years after the publication date). I am > suprised nobody has scanned them yet. They really are excellent books on > radar and related electronics. > > -tony > From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 20 00:48:59 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books In-Reply-To: <012301c45689$9693bf70$6a00a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back > reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did quite a > few) Are there other editions? I have several of the Dover reprints. I think they are sold thru Antique Radio Classified (ARC) - they are not hard to get - well, maybe getting a complete set of originals is a challenge. I have most of them, and frankly, the best one is the Components book (#17). The mugshots of the different vendors' resistors, wire, coils, and such, is information that can't be found anywhere else in such compact form. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From spc at conman.org Sun Jun 20 01:37:51 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: New finds. Silicon Graphics Personal iris. In-Reply-To: from "Benjamin Gardiner" at Jun 20, 2004 02:23:38 PM Message-ID: <20040620063751.3F48010B2C8C@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Benjamin Gardiner once stated: > > Does anyone know where one can source the older versions of IRIX for > these machines, be it cd or tape images? I know this machine could run > IRIX 5.3 which one could get off ebay, but as this machine only has 16 > meg of ram, I would prefer to run one of the older versions of IRIX on > it, be it 3.x.x or 4.x.x as I haven't ever realy played round with > these older versions of UNIX before. If you can get 3x, do so---it's the last version that came with NeWS (Network Extensible Window System or something like that)---starting with 4.0 SGI switched to X with (more or less) standard X Window Managers (4Dwm is quite nice, but still, it's an X Window manager) and I don't think there's any real difference between 4x and 5x. -spc (Actually, avoid 5x at all costs---it's a real hog) From cvisors at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 01:44:39 2004 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: New finds. Silicon Graphics Personal iris. In-Reply-To: <20040620063751.3F48010B2C8C@swift.conman.org> References: <20040620063751.3F48010B2C8C@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:37:51 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Benjamin Gardiner once stated: > > > > Does anyone know where one can source the older versions of IRIX for > > these machines, be it cd or tape images? I know this machine could run > > IRIX 5.3 which one could get off ebay, but as this machine only has 16 > > meg of ram, I would prefer to run one of the older versions of IRIX on > > it, be it 3.x.x or 4.x.x as I haven't ever realy played round with > > these older versions of UNIX before. > > If you can get 3x, do so---it's the last version that came with NeWS > (Network Extensible Window System or something like that)---starting with > 4.0 SGI switched to X with (more or less) standard X Window Managers (4Dwm > is quite nice, but still, it's an X Window manager) and I don't think > there's any real difference between 4x and 5x. > > -spc (Actually, avoid 5x at all costs---it's a real hog) > > I have heard that 5.x is pretty bad on these machines, so I am probably going to try for 3.x or 4.x personally I would prefer getting three going as I would like to see NeWS, but I cant get the disk with 3 on it to even look like its booting, and the two other disks with 4.x won't boot into single user mode, and also hangs at trying to mount some long gone nfs shares. Though I am sure I may be able to get it worked out. One can hope. Benjamin -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 20 02:07:37 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: ***Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books References: <012301c45689$9693bf70$6a00a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <002d01c45695$44f85de0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Folks,,, we have extras on these... for trade or? there are two hard cover series... the orig maroon ones and the smaller Boston technical publishers in grey binding... we have some of each... I have never seen a complete set of the Dover paperbacks but perhaps a set exists out there somewhere.. Indeed this is the best set of references..... for radar and microwaves. we think they are so profound we have 2 sets for the museum complete. we either need to build a third set or let these may extras find a home. we could use an extra index or an extra computing devices or loran or the magnetron one. Of course we will trade for anything and everything that would be of benefit to the museum look at www.smecc.org and see the areas of technology the museum embraces.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Brown" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:43 PM Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back > reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did quite a > few) Are there other editions? I have several of the Dover reprints. > Last time I looked in the local engineering library a year or so ago, the > set of hard cover originals I used to use on occasions were still > there-though with the way things are going they will probably get tossed out > one of these days. > I think I have a couple of duplicates among the Dover ones I have- if > those are of interest I'll have a look and confirm details. > > DaveB > Christchurch, NZ > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 3:10 PM > Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I have a couple of the MIT Radiation Laboratory electronics books > that > > > were published in the late 1940s and I'd like to get the rest of them. > Does > > > anyone have any of them that they're willing to part with? > > > > If anyone in the UK has 'spares' of this series, I'm looking for most of > > them too (I think I have 4 of the 28 or so volumes so far). > > > > Incidentally, according to the preface, these books are now public domain > > (they became public domain 10 years after the publication date). I am > > suprised nobody has scanned them yet. They really are excellent books on > > radar and related electronics. > > > > -tony > > > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 20 02:08:21 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: L @@K RARE MINIVAC 601, 1961 COMPUTER, UNIVAC, EXC L@@K References: <001201c45689$1a331480$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <003301c45695$5ecbd8f0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> correction.... 800+ dollars! ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:40 PM Subject: L @@K RARE MINIVAC 601, 1961 COMPUTER, UNIVAC, EXC L@@K L@@K RARE MINIVAC 601, 1961 COMPUTER, UNIVAC, EXC L@@K wow... some one shure choked this down for 600+ bucks.. silly me I thought they were $300 high! Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 20 02:10:39 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books References: Message-ID: <003d01c45695$b11b2ac0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> the other fun companion to this set is the yearbook that came out at the end ..... it is like they turned the time life photo journalists loose and lots of building plans lots of text.... really fun! Have one extra for trade of this too... ed sharpe archivist for smecc ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:48 PM Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > > I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back > > reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did quite a > > few) Are there other editions? I have several of the Dover reprints. > > I think they are sold thru Antique Radio Classified (ARC) - they are not > hard to get - well, maybe getting a complete set of originals is a > challenge. > > I have most of them, and frankly, the best one is the Components book > (#17). The mugshots of the different vendors' resistors, wire, coils, and > such, is information that can't be found anywhere else in such compact > form. > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 20 02:08:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some > knowledge of what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives > you is wrong (maybe you didn't feed the tool enough information, > forgot something, or there is a bug in the program, etc). This is *so* true. When I and my now-ex first arranged our mortgage, at one point we asked the loan officer how much we'd pay in interest over the entire amortization period, given certain parameters. We knew the number would be somewhere between two and three times the principal amount. The fellow punched at his calculator and came up with a number that was _way_ too low - later, our own calculations led us to suspect he gave us the total over just the term, not the full amortization period. When we pointed out that it was unreasonably low, he steadfastly stood by the number his calculator had churned out, not even realizing that it couldn't be anywhere near the answer to the question we wanted answered. I've always thought that was an excellent example of using a tool with grossly insufficient understanding. He not only didn't sanity-check the number himself, he didn't even acknowledge how unreasonable it was upon being called on it! I also was unable to ever get the bank to tell me exactly how interest was calculated - I had to juggle possibilities myself until I came up with one that tracked the bank's numbers exactly. (Today, I likely would not sign until they coughed up such information, and most certainly would be more insistent about it.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Sun Jun 20 04:34:24 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: References: <007101c45676$5b129290$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040620101413.03bffd78@pop.freeserve.net> At 04:47 20/06/2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > People get too specialized these days. > >These day, you have to be specialized. There is little in the market for >"jack of all trades" EEs. Those days are gone, except in very small >companies doing fairly simple devices. > Sadly this is true in computing as well. I don't have a degree, the only college I went to was a technical college, one day a week sponsored by the company I was working for as an apprentice (Ferranti, may they rest in peace). But I've got over 20 years experience across the board in electronics, computers, hardware and software. I have a reasonable understanding of how most things work, can still remember the resistor colour code, (mostly, I always forget the tolerance bands) could design and build a simple digital circuit, then program up any software that is needed to run it. I can probably set up everything an ISP needs to run, and muddle my way through writing custom applications in php, sql and even awk, not to mention all the microsoft languages! But I'm not an expert in any of this, have no qualifications, and much prefer to have some reference to hand to help me along rather than guessing all the time. I dare say there are things I can do I'm not even good at! I guess this makes me that 'jack of all trades'. And can I find a new job that actually pays more than we receive on state benefits? Nope ... everybody, certainly the bigger companies that pay the better money, wants experts in one tiny field. The last place I worked was indeed a small company, where some of my skills were handy, but they were basically selling and supporting hardware on the back of their accounts software. So the Windows NT server is getting full and slow? Sell the customer a bigger server running Windows 2000. My boss didn't have a clue, had no people skills, and would not use the skills or knowledge of his staff. In the end, I'm glad we parted company.... Rob From drb at msu.edu Fri Jun 18 22:11:53 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Resend: TSZ07, "5F MOTOR FAULT" In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 18 Jun 2004 18:35:47 BST.) <000b01c4555a$b1bbf7c0$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <000b01c4555a$b1bbf7c0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <200406190311.i5J3Br46021080@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > > It ends up I have a TSZ07 technical manual. I will glance through > > and see if it says anything helpful. I wonder if there would be a > > benefit to add this manual to the scanned DEC docs site... > If you head over to http://vt100.net/manx you should be able to find > it in three of four places already. If none of those work, I have > a pdf already, so let me know and I'll pass it along. Thanks to Paul and Antonio for providing links to the technical manual. De From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Jun 19 20:28:19 2004 From: lgwalker at mts.net (lgwalker@mts.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Commodore 75BM13 monitor ? Message-ID: <40D485C3.11401.1EC97C99@localhost> I recently acquired a Commodore 75BM13 monitor. Its' signal-in port is a female 6-pin Din like the C64 serial port. It was manufactured in 1986. The 1902 (non-A) also had a 6-pin port and a cable with an 8-pin on the computer end but I tend to doubt this was a low-cost alternative. The M13 part of the model # undoubtably stands for monochrome 13". I've been unable to find any info on it other than a few oblique references in the CBM newsgroup and a Commodore monitor list with no specs and a question mark opposite a similar model 76BM13. Anyone know what this model might have been used with ? When looking thru my cable stash I came across a cable with the same pin-out on both ends and also "monitor" printed on one end and "computer" on the other end. It didn't come with the monitor and I'm curious what it may be for. Anyone recognize it ? Thank you. I'm no longer on the list but browse it occasionally when I have time. Lawrence From lgwalker at mts.net Sat Jun 19 22:41:32 2004 From: lgwalker at mts.net (lgwalker@mts.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: resubscribing to list Message-ID: <40D4A4FC.23198.1F43767F@localhost> I am resubscribing to the list after about 2 years absence due to the # of posts, the DEC and mini predominance, and the time I was spending going thru the posts. I had also forgotten the access to info and the humor and off-beat perspectives of many of the members. The final thrust was the post by Tony Duell which I am still giggling about. > And FWIW, according to the current UK educational standards I don't know > how to use a computer (!)... > -tony So I'm back unless Jay rejects me. And I imagine some members will not welcome the crazy Canuck. Too bad Ward (Mr. TRS-80) still hasn't relented. (I hear a collective groan from some members) Lawrence From nbreeden2 at comcast.net Sat Jun 19 22:29:40 2004 From: nbreeden2 at comcast.net (Neil Breeden) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. Message-ID: <200406200345.i5K3jThc040694@huey.classiccmp.org> Not sure if this has already been posted or not, there is what looks to be an awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. for auction on E-Bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6907274702&sspagename=STK %3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I emailed the person selling them, he estimates them at 1000lbs. They are for local pickup only (NJ area). -Neil From rmeenaks at olf.com Sun Jun 20 07:32:57 2004 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. In-Reply-To: <200406200345.i5K3jThc040694@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0HZL003GMXJ5YR@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> I wish I could get that INMOS Databook. This is truly an awesome collection, I hope somebody picks this up. And if you do, I wouldn't mind the INMOS Book :-) Cheers, Ram -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Neil Breeden Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 11:30 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. Not sure if this has already been posted or not, there is what looks to be an awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. for auction on E-Bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6907274702&sspagename=STK %3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 I emailed the person selling them, he estimates them at 1000lbs. They are for local pickup only (NJ area). -Neil From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 20 08:07:58 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books In-Reply-To: <012301c45689$9693bf70$6a00a8c0@athlon> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620090758.008e3e40@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:43 PM 6/20/04 +1200, you wrote: > >I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back >reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did quite a >few) Are there other editions? I wasn't aware of the Dover reprints. Some or all of the MIT series was reprinted by Boston Technical Publishers in 1963 and 1964. Some or all of them were also published by New York Dover Publications in 1965. The originals were published by McGraw Hill starting in 1947. Some of the volumes were published in 1948 and 1949. There were a total of 27 volumes plus an index volume. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 20 08:14:18 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books In-Reply-To: <003d01c45695$b11b2ac0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620091418.008e6580@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:10 AM 6/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > >the other fun companion to this set is the yearbook that came out at the >end ..... it is like they turned the time life photo journalists loose and >lots of building plans lots of text.... really fun! They did! Life was all set to publish a big edition about the Rad Lab and the workers there as the unsung heros of the war until the announcement of the atomic bomb. They replaced the Rad Lab edition with a special edition about the bomb and Los Alomos. Life later did a small article about a couple of the people at the Rad Lab but never published the big one. Joe > >Have one extra for trade of this too... > >ed sharpe archivist for smecc >----- Original Message ----- >From: "William Donzelli" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:48 PM >Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > > >> > I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back >> > reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did >quite a >> > few) Are there other editions? I have several of the Dover reprints. >> >> I think they are sold thru Antique Radio Classified (ARC) - they are not >> hard to get - well, maybe getting a complete set of originals is a >> challenge. >> >> I have most of them, and frankly, the best one is the Components book >> (#17). The mugshots of the different vendors' resistors, wire, coils, and >> such, is information that can't be found anywhere else in such compact >> form. >> >> William Donzelli >> aw288@osfn.org >> >> >> > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 20 08:44:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) In-Reply-To: <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620094454.008e6530@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:08 AM 6/20/04 -0400, mouse wrote: > >> Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some >> knowledge of what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives >> you is wrong (maybe you didn't feed the tool enough information, >> forgot something, or there is a bug in the program, etc). > >This is *so* true. > >When I and my now-ex first arranged our mortgage, at one point we asked >the loan officer how much we'd pay in interest over the entire >amortization period, given certain parameters. We knew the number >would be somewhere between two and three times the principal amount. >The fellow punched at his calculator and came up with a number that was >_way_ too low - later, our own calculations led us to suspect he gave >us the total over just the term, not the full amortization period. >When we pointed out that it was unreasonably low, One of the most important things that I learned in college was when one of the professors there told us to look at our answers and see if they looked "reasonable". Over the years I've found that to be a great way to catch errors. Running a calculation twice is fine for catching some errors but all too often you do it the same way or make the same wrong assumption and get an unrealistic answer. It only takes a few seconds to think about the results and to question weather or not they're "resonable". Speaking of loans, I've sure everyone here has had to experience of talking to salesmen or loan people and having them say "your payments should be about this much" and then when finding that the payments are a lot higher when you finally try to close the deal. For years, I've been carrying my HP-41 with the Finance pack with me when I shop for anything involving a loan. I can whip it out and get the right answer in seconds. The sales people HATE it! It usually means that they can't sell me the big expensive (insert name) or else they have to lower their price. Joe he steadfastly stood >by the number his calculator had churned out, not even realizing that >it couldn't be anywhere near the answer to the question we wanted >answered. > >I've always thought that was an excellent example of using a tool with >grossly insufficient understanding. He not only didn't sanity-check >the number himself, he didn't even acknowledge how unreasonable it was >upon being called on it! > >I also was unable to ever get the bank to tell me exactly how interest >was calculated - I had to juggle possibilities myself until I came up >with one that tracked the bank's numbers exactly. (Today, I likely >would not sign until they coughed up such information, and most >certainly would be more insistent about it.) > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 20 08:51:05 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Ferranti? Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <6.1.1.1.0.20040620101413.03bffd78@pop.freeserve.net> References: <007101c45676$5b129290$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620095105.008e7100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:34 AM 6/20/04 +0100, Rob wrote: > >At 04:47 20/06/2004, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > People get too specialized these days. >> >>These day, you have to be specialized. There is little in the market for >>"jack of all trades" EEs. Those days are gone, except in very small >>companies doing fairly simple devices. >> > >Sadly this is true in computing as well. I don't have a degree, the only >college I went to was a technical college, one day a week sponsored by the >company I was working for as an apprentice (Ferranti, may they rest in >peace). What happened to Ferranti? We used to use one of their RADARs on the system that I worked on but I haven't heard anything about them since the program was cancelled. FWIW I used to be like you but I get feed up with being stuck in low paying jobs while the educated idiots made twice as much money as I did but couldn't do the work and I had to do my job and theirs too. I finally went back to college and got a degree (two actually). My salary tripled after that. I hate to say it but it was probably the best thing that I ever did career wise. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 20 08:56:01 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. In-Reply-To: <200406200345.i5K3jThc040694@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620095601.008ea710@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've been e-mailing back and forth with the seller trying to get more inforamtion about what's there but all he'll say is how "awesome" the collection is. It could be a collection of old junk mail for all I can tell. Showing me a picture of a stack of binders with RCA, GE, etc etc written on them doesn't tell me a thing. FWIW Joe At 08:29 PM 6/19/04 -0700, you wrote: > >Not sure if this has already been posted or not, there is what looks to be >an awesome collection of older data books, manuals etc. for auction on >E-Bay. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6907274702&sspagename=STK >%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 > >I emailed the person selling them, he estimates them at 1000lbs. They are >for local pickup only (NJ area). > >-Neil > > > From at258 at osfn.org Sun Jun 20 10:18:05 2004 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Open House In-Reply-To: <200406181401.HAA14108@floodgap.com> Message-ID: We're having an Open House/BYO picnic July 10th if anyone would like to come. If there's interest, we could go over to the warehouse afterwards. -- M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Jun 20 10:27:19 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Telephone Scam... In-Reply-To: <20040619130936.L87094@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Inerestingly enough in 1980 I worked for the one (and hopefully only) company that I hated going to work each day. At the time my (first) wfie and I had just moved to FLA from NY. All of her friends were in NY. Our telephone bills were HUGE. Since I hated the company, was young (21) and rather a loose cannon. I made use of the very technique that spawned this legend (with minor changes). I would call my wife at the apartment, ask which friend she wanted to speak with, initiate a three way with the friend in NY. I would then put my receiver back on the cradle with a little wedge so you could not see that it was really off hook. People DID wonder why my extension was always busy.... From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 20 12:50:45 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:39 2005 Subject: Unexpected Find In-Reply-To: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Do you have the book too? I have been writing a cardiac emulator, but I need the book that went with the cardiac... (or a photocopy or scan) On Jun 19, 2004, at 8:03 PM, blstuart@bellsouth.net wrote: > I'm always a bit green with jealousy when I read a post > where someone announces a great find. I can't help but > thinking "That's nice for you but stop rubbing it in." > > Well, I can't help but relate that today I was sorting > through some magazines and papers trying to get my > office/workshop in order when I found a Cardiac. I > still don't know where I got it, but needless to say, > it made my day. > > A little later I carried it into another room in my > outstretched hands. My daughter asked what I had > and my wife said "apparently the Holy Grail." Rarely > a truer word... > > Brian L. Stuart > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 20 13:05:27 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some knowledge of > what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives you is wrong (maybe > you didn't feed the tool enough information, forgot something, or there is a > bug in the program, etc). Lots of solutions that look good on a computer end > up not working great in the field because of many things that are not > modeled in your tool. Bridges fall, roofs cave in, microchips short out, etc > not because the tools were wrong, but because when things get too big or too > small other forces that normally don't matter come into play. The only thing > that really changes in engineering is we have new materials, controls, and > better detailed models to play with, the basics you learned in school don't > change much if at all. Without the basics the tools are just a good quick > way to make a mess of things. Somebody who knows what's going on can jump > from tool to tool, if you just know how to use one particular tool then your > in trouble. I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each generation passes? My instinct would say "no", since the world is still working. People still understand electronics, mechanics, physics, etc. People are still being taught the fundamentals. One learns more in classrooms today than they did 100 years ago. Much of the subject matter has changed, but the basics remain the same. For example, we no longer learn how tubes/valves work, because we don't design with them anymore. However, the functional basics are the same as with transistors. We don't learn in detail how tubes or transistors work because we aren't going to be designing and building new ones. Now we learn how FPGAs and the like work because that's what we design with. In 100 years, FPGAs will be quaint, just like vacuum tubes are today. But as long as the basics are still being taught, the world will keep working. > The most important things I learned in college is how to deal with people > you might not like but have to work with, the basics of the field I was in Exactly. But you don't need to go to school to learn this. A job as a waiter in a restaurant will teach these skills quite nicely. > (that you DO use believe it or not for the rest of your life), and how to > solve problems you never seen before in a logical way. That's what most people don't realize school is all about. It's not about learning a subject matter, it's learning how to THINK properly (a skill many people lack today, partially as evidenced by the mess the world is currently in). -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 20 13:28:00 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Ferranti? Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <007101c45676$5b129290$0500fea9@game> <3.0.6.32.20040620095105.008e7100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000701c456f4$50f97070$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Ferranti? they also made computers... we have some stuff on them around here somewhere.... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 6:51 AM Subject: Ferranti? Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) > At 10:34 AM 6/20/04 +0100, Rob wrote: > > > >At 04:47 20/06/2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > > >> > People get too specialized these days. > >> > >>These day, you have to be specialized. There is little in the market for > >>"jack of all trades" EEs. Those days are gone, except in very small > >>companies doing fairly simple devices. > >> > > > >Sadly this is true in computing as well. I don't have a degree, the only > >college I went to was a technical college, one day a week sponsored by the > >company I was working for as an apprentice (Ferranti, may they rest in > >peace). > > What happened to Ferranti? We used to use one of their RADARs on the > system that I worked on but I haven't heard anything about them since the > program was cancelled. > > FWIW I used to be like you but I get feed up with being stuck in low > paying jobs while the educated idiots made twice as much money as I did but > couldn't do the work and I had to do my job and theirs too. I finally went > back to college and got a degree (two actually). My salary tripled after > that. I hate to say it but it was probably the best thing that I ever did > career wise. > > > Joe > > > From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Sun Jun 20 12:59:25 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & References: Message-ID: <007701c456f4$ed4a6060$bb72fea9@geoff> A fellow technician once asked me : " If I wire 2 x 9v batteries in parallel , will I get 4.5v or 18v ? " My reply - a resigned " Oh , f*** off " didn't answer his question but everyone else in the room was laughing anyway. We also had an ex- RAF guy who used to ask for a 250v fuse - not a 12v one , a 250v one !? It took a long time to put him straight. Both could be classed as "board jockeys " as opposed to their earlier counterparts " valve jockeys". I am also told of production workers on a TV assy. line who complained that their remote controls didn't work. Of course , they tested fine....etc. It turned out ( this was in the early days of remote controls ) that they had "lifted " the remotes to use at home on their old "non-rc" tv's. Who was it said that ,to earlier civilisations, high technology would appear to be magic ? Not that much earlier , it would appear. Geoff. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:14 AM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & > > > > It's worse than that. Most people in electronics today don't even have a > > good understanding of basic components such as diodes, transistors, > > capacitors etc. A good example was the guy on this list that claimed > > A lot of people don't understand _wire_ properly ;-). Of course that is > one of the most complex parts of your circuit in general. > > > voltage didn't matter in a power supply, only current. VERY few of the > > I once had a row with an idiot who decided that the 100 off 100nF > decoupling capacitors I'd shown across the supply lines (this was a large > board...) could be replaced by a single 10uF electrolytic mear the power > connector. This was on a board of ECL clocking at 100+ MHz..... > > > people that I know that have Electrical Engineering degrees can even read a > > color code or can identify simple parts such as a resistor from a diode. I > > Most people with EE degrees over here can find and solve the equations a > lot better than I can, but have no idea what they mean, or why they're > applicable, or what the components actually are. Somebody once asked me > for a 362.8 ohm (or something like that) resistor to use as an LED > current limiter because that's what the formula had told him to use... > > -tony > From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 20 13:35:20 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books References: <3.0.6.32.20040620091418.008e6580@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <000f01c456f5$579dc470$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> but this yearbook rad labs came out with was so awesome..... it would have been better to see the get a big splash in LIFE though.... they deserved it!! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 6:14 AM Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > At 12:10 AM 6/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > >the other fun companion to this set is the yearbook that came out at the > >end ..... it is like they turned the time life photo journalists loose and > >lots of building plans lots of text.... really fun! > > > They did! Life was all set to publish a big edition about the Rad Lab > and the workers there as the unsung heros of the war until the announcement > of the atomic bomb. They replaced the Rad Lab edition with a special > edition about the bomb and Los Alomos. Life later did a small article about > a couple of the people at the Rad Lab but never published the big one. > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > >Have one extra for trade of this too... > > > >ed sharpe archivist for smecc > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "William Donzelli" > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > >Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:48 PM > >Subject: Re: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books > > > > > >> > I'm aware of the original hard cover versions and the Dover paper back > >> > reprints.(not sure if Dover reprinted all the originals but they did > >quite a > >> > few) Are there other editions? I have several of the Dover reprints. > >> > >> I think they are sold thru Antique Radio Classified (ARC) - they are not > >> hard to get - well, maybe getting a complete set of originals is a > >> challenge. > >> > >> I have most of them, and frankly, the best one is the Components book > >> (#17). The mugshots of the different vendors' resistors, wire, coils, and > >> such, is information that can't be found anywhere else in such compact > >> form. > >> > >> William Donzelli > >> aw288@osfn.org > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 20 13:51:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040620145154.008ea480@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:05 AM 6/20/04 -0700, Sellam wrote: > >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some knowledge of >> what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives you is wrong (maybe >> you didn't feed the tool enough information, forgot something, or there is a >> bug in the program, etc). Lots of solutions that look good on a computer end >> up not working great in the field because of many things that are not >> modeled in your tool. Bridges fall, roofs cave in, microchips short out, etc >> not because the tools were wrong, but because when things get too big or too >> small other forces that normally don't matter come into play. The only thing >> that really changes in engineering is we have new materials, controls, and >> better detailed models to play with, the basics you learned in school don't >> change much if at all. Without the basics the tools are just a good quick >> way to make a mess of things. Somebody who knows what's going on can jump >> from tool to tool, if you just know how to use one particular tool then your >> in trouble. > >I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each >generation passes? > >My instinct would say "no", I vote a resounding YES! When I was a kid there were a couple of dozen very knowledgeable adult hams (amateur radio operators) in town and I knew plenty of kids and teenagers that were seriously interested in electronics and many more than were intersted in mechanical things such as automobiles. Now I know exactly ONE teenager that's remotely interested in electronics (and he only knows enough to be dangerous!) and perhaps two that are interested in mechanics. And this is in a town that's at least twice as big as the one that I grew up in. And as far as finding a knowledgeable ham goes you can just about forget it! There's ONE in town. The rest just buy prebuilt packaged radios, plug them in and start talking. They're even less knowledgeable than the CD operators were in the 60s. Joe From jdjdmfamily at yahoo.com Sun Jun 20 07:13:40 2004 From: jdjdmfamily at yahoo.com (Jim Jozaitis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Apple IIe's Message-ID: <20040620121340.73229.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> hello, you have 10 iie's with cards and software are you willing to sell some? I need the courvs 74mb thing and the "transporter". PLease let me know. THanks So Much, JIm j. From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sun Jun 20 08:09:22 2004 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: New finds. Silicon Graphics Personal iris. In-Reply-To: References: <20040620063751.3F48010B2C8C@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040620090842.029f3a88@mail.n.ml.org> What kind of drives are in them? Maybe someone has a spare to replace them if they are defective or dying? -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:44 AM 6/20/2004, you wrote: >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:37:51 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > wrote: > > > > It was thus said that the Great Benjamin Gardiner once stated: > > > > > > Does anyone know where one can source the older versions of IRIX for > > > these machines, be it cd or tape images? I know this machine could run > > > IRIX 5.3 which one could get off ebay, but as this machine only has 16 > > > meg of ram, I would prefer to run one of the older versions of IRIX on > > > it, be it 3.x.x or 4.x.x as I haven't ever realy played round with > > > these older versions of UNIX before. > > > > If you can get 3x, do so---it's the last version that came with NeWS > > (Network Extensible Window System or something like that)---starting with > > 4.0 SGI switched to X with (more or less) standard X Window Managers (4Dwm > > is quite nice, but still, it's an X Window manager) and I don't think > > there's any real difference between 4x and 5x. > > > > -spc (Actually, avoid 5x at all costs---it's a real hog) > > > > > >I have heard that 5.x is pretty bad on these machines, so I am >probably going to try for 3.x or 4.x personally I would prefer getting >three going as I would like to see NeWS, but I cant get the disk with >3 on it to even look like its booting, and the two other disks with >4.x won't boot into single user mode, and also hangs at trying to >mount some long gone nfs shares. > >Though I am sure I may be able to get it worked out. One can hope. > >Benjamin > >-- >one you lock the target >two you bait the line >three you slowly spread the net >and four you catch the man > >Front 242 Headhunter ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 15:02:46 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: SPAMMERCIDE and Telephone Scam... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040620125014.N571@newshell.lmi.net> > rather a loose cannon. I made use of the very technique that spawned this > legend (with minor changes). > I would call my wife at the apartment, ask which friend she wanted to speak > with, initiate a three way with the friend in NY. I would then put my So,... The general consensus is that, because there ARE ways to defraud TPC, and 3 way calling CAN be used to make unauthorized calls (with significant participation by the "victim"), that therefore Snopes is correct in classifying the following as TRUE: > WARNING! > A well known telephone scam is now being used on cellular telephones. > There is a fraudulent company that is using a device to gain access to > the Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) Card, which contains all subscriber > related data (this is the brains in the phone) in your cellular > telephone. > A scam artist places a call to an unsuspecting person and the caller > says he or she is testing mobile (cellular) telephone circuits or equipment. > The called party is asked to press #90 or #09. If this happens END THE > CALL IMMEDIATELY with out pressing the numbers. Once you press #90 or > #09 the company can access your SIM Card and makes calls at your expense. If that much inaccuracy is accepted in the concept of TRUTH, then it IS "TRUE" that there is a big biker dude with sunglasses who is tracking down spammers in order to dip them in molten iron. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred (gotta charge up the batteries on my Aurenthetic Electric bike and find those dorky sunglasses,...) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 15:25:49 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & In-Reply-To: <007701c456f4$ed4a6060$bb72fea9@geoff> References: <007701c456f4$ed4a6060$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <20040620132102.H571@newshell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > A fellow technician once asked me : " If I wire 2 x 9v batteries in > parallel , will I get 4.5v or 18v ? " ... "but it's the current, not the voltage, that matters" > Who was it said that ,to earlier civilisations, high technology would appear > to be magic ? > Not that much earlier , it would appear. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clark ". . . or a rigged demonstration" -- George Morrow OB_plea: Does ANYBODY have (even if you won't part with it) a copy of "Quotations of Chairman Morrow"? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 15:38:24 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040620133039.N571@newshell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > When we pointed out that it was unreasonably low, he steadfastly stood > by the number his calculator had churned out, not even realizing that > it couldn't be anywhere near the answer to the question we wanted > answered. In my C class, one of my assignments calls for displaying some information, then skipping EXACTLY TWO lines, and then displaying some more. Invariably, I get some students who have skipped ONE line. When I point out that the gap is visibly obviously NOT two lines, they insist that it MUST BE 2 lines, in spite of what they see, because they had \n\n in the printf. (part of the exercise was to make them notice what happens when an output ends in mid line.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Jun 20 15:55:12 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each generation passes? I would have to answer this with a resounding YES! There are many skills (engineering related or not) that are lost regularly. You mentioned tube technology. My father was one of the most respected engineering wiremen of the 1960's. He was highly sought after for making harnesses by many companies. The art of hand lacing a harness is basically lost. Harnesses of any significant size are rarely used anymore, and when they are, they are almost invariably "tie wrapped". I am sure nearly every list member could give a similar example. An alternative question of course is... "Does it matter if knowledge is lost as each generation passes?" This gets much more complicated...... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Jun 20 16:04:49 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (Batteies) In-Reply-To: <007701c456f4$ed4a6060$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: Regarding the two 9V batteries in a parallel... A better question is what happens if you put them at right angles.... you get 13.85V!!!!! [This is the square root of the some of the squares for those who are slightly innumerate] If a "sufficiently advanced technogoloy is indistinguishable from magic" and many people that magic once existed on earth, is it not possible that the older civilizations were actually more advanced than ours????? From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 20 15:59:15 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: SPAMMERCIDE and Telephone Scam... In-Reply-To: <20040620125014.N571@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > The general consensus is that, because there ARE ways to defraud > TPC, and 3 way calling CAN be used to make unauthorized calls > (with significant participation by the "victim"), that therefore > Snopes is correct in classifying the following as TRUE: > > > WARNING! > > A well known telephone scam is now being used on cellular telephones. > > There is a fraudulent company that is using a device to gain access to > > the Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) Card, which contains all subscriber > > related data (this is the brains in the phone) in your cellular > > telephone. > > A scam artist places a call to an unsuspecting person and the caller > > says he or she is testing mobile (cellular) telephone circuits or equipment. > > The called party is asked to press #90 or #09. If this happens END THE > > CALL IMMEDIATELY with out pressing the numbers. Once you press #90 or > > #09 the company can access your SIM Card and makes calls at your expense. > > > If that much inaccuracy is accepted in the concept of TRUTH, then > it IS "TRUE" that there is a big biker dude with sunglasses who > is tracking down spammers in order to dip them in molten iron. Fred, >From what I'm reading here: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/scams/jailcall.htm ...their conclusion is that the basic scam is "sort of" true, which is accurate as far as PBX systems go. But the cell phone bullshit is not true at all (at least not as far as I know, though again, that scenario can technically be possible) and should be in its own entry, or at least explicitly and individually labeled as false. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 20 16:21:32 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: 21+ Years of DDJ Indexed Message-ID: Whilst doing an unrelated search, I came across this gem: Twenty-One + Years of Dr. Dobb's Journal Indexed http://www.cstone.net/~bachs/ddj/ It's maintained by a person who used to get paid by DDJ to index their magazine, but after CMP bought it out he says he continues the service gratis. He has a donation link to help keep the site up. I did my part ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cvisors at gmail.com Sun Jun 20 16:28:24 2004 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: New finds. Silicon Graphics Personal iris. In-Reply-To: <6.1.0.6.2.20040620090842.029f3a88@mail.n.ml.org> References: <20040620063751.3F48010B2C8C@swift.conman.org> <6.1.0.6.2.20040620090842.029f3a88@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: Hi John, I fanally worked out what was wrong, I mounted these drives on another sgi box I have externally, and it looks like for both 3.3.1 and 4.0.5 /usr is remotly mounted, so I am going to need to do an os re install. Now to get a copy of 3.3.1. or 4.0.5. Benjamin On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 09:09:22 -0400, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > > What kind of drives are in them? Maybe someone has a spare to replace them > if they are defective or dying? > -John Boffemmyer IV > > > > At 02:44 AM 6/20/2004, you wrote: > >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 02:37:51 -0400 (EDT), Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner > > wrote: > > > > > > It was thus said that the Great Benjamin Gardiner once stated: > > > > > > > > Does anyone know where one can source the older versions of IRIX for > > > > these machines, be it cd or tape images? I know this machine could run > > > > IRIX 5.3 which one could get off ebay, but as this machine only has 16 > > > > meg of ram, I would prefer to run one of the older versions of IRIX on > > > > it, be it 3.x.x or 4.x.x as I haven't ever realy played round with > > > > these older versions of UNIX before. > > > > > > If you can get 3x, do so---it's the last version that came with NeWS > > > (Network Extensible Window System or something like that)---starting with > > > 4.0 SGI switched to X with (more or less) standard X Window Managers (4Dwm > > > is quite nice, but still, it's an X Window manager) and I don't think > > > there's any real difference between 4x and 5x. > > > > > > -spc (Actually, avoid 5x at all costs---it's a real hog) > > > > > > > > > >I have heard that 5.x is pretty bad on these machines, so I am > >probably going to try for 3.x or 4.x personally I would prefer getting > >three going as I would like to see NeWS, but I cant get the disk with > >3 on it to even look like its booting, and the two other disks with > >4.x won't boot into single user mode, and also hangs at trying to > >mount some long gone nfs shares. > > > >Though I am sure I may be able to get it worked out. One can hope. > > > >Benjamin > > > >-- > >one you lock the target > >two you bait the line > >three you slowly spread the net > >and four you catch the man > > > >Front 242 Headhunter > > ---------------------------------------- > Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst > and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies > http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html > --------------------------------------- > > -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 20 16:08:54 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 20, 4 11:05:27 am Message-ID: > > On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > > > Tools are great, I use them myself. But you have to have some knowledge of > > what's going on to know when the answer the tool gives you is wrong (maybe > > you didn't feed the tool enough information, forgot something, or there is a Truer words were never spoken (or written :-)). Some idiots actually believe that adverts that claim a CAD system will turn you into an engineer. It won;t!. Don't get me wrong. Computer _aided_ design is great (as opposed to computer-hindered-design when the so-called CAD program does all it can to prevent you getting the thing working). But you have to understand what you are doing and why. Otherwise you end up with the design that looks good on the screen but which can't possibly work wrll in practice. Oh yes, I have a dozen or so 'tests' for electronic CAD programs -- circuits that may not do what you'd naively think, or which require digital similators to do something other than blindly applying the inputs and looking at the outputs, etc. So far I've yet to find a CAD program that gets any one of them 'right' (defined and what I actually measured when I built the circuit). What this means is that the results of any of said CAD programs can't be trusted -- you have to use intellegence when interpretting them. > I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each > generation passes? > > My instinct would say "no", since the world is still working. People By your own admission we _are_ losing knowledge (in that, as you say, valves are not taught any more, for example). > still understand electronics, mechanics, physics, etc. People are still > being taught the fundamentals. One learns more in classrooms today than Maybe US schools are different to those in the UK, but over here, fundamentals are most certainly not being taugh. Heck, logarithms are no longer taught in the the equivalent of your high schools, I believe. [FIWW< the 'justification' for that is that logarithms were only used to make it easier to multiply numbers, and as everyone does that on a calculator now, logarithms have no use. You know as well as I do that this is totally bogus!] > they did 100 years ago. Much of the subject matter has changed, but the > basics remain the same. > > For example, we no longer learn how tubes/valves work, because we don't > design with them anymore. However, the functional basics are the same as > with transistors. We don't learn in detail how tubes or transistors work > because we aren't going to be designing and building new ones. Now we This is something that worries me. You seem to be happy with transsitors as are currently available without wondering if there's something better that could be designed ('better' meaning lower power consumption or faster, or...). I am not. And IMHO to design a better device you'd better understand the current ones. > learn how FPGAs and the like work because that's what we design with. In Having seen the results of people designing with FPGAs who don't understand basic electronics, I can't possibly agree with this! > That's what most people don't realize school is all about. It's not about > learning a subject matter, it's learning how to THINK properly (a skill What planet are you on? Schools, at least in the UK, are there to stop people thinking. If you think -- if you challenge (politely, I may add) the teacher, if you start asking relevant questions, then you are a 'troublemaker' and will be expelled or worse. It nearly happened to me several times (and yes, the questions I were asking were certaioly applicable to the subject, and yes, the teacher was talking rubbish half the time (which is why I asked said questions). > many people lack today, partially as evidenced by the mess the world is > currently in). -tony From jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to Sun Jun 20 16:34:35 2004 From: jhfinexgs2 at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: resubscribing to list References: <40D4A4FC.23198.1F43767F@localhost> Message-ID: <40D602EB.C2CDA85B@compsys.to> >lgwalker@mts.net wrote: > I am resubscribing to the list after about 2 years absence due to the # of > posts, the DEC and mini predominance, and the time I was spending > going thru the posts. I had also forgotten the access to info and the humor > and off-beat perspectives of many of the members. Jerome Fine replies: Welcome back. These days, my experience is that I can usually DELETE those posts I am not interested in within about 10 minutes a day. Considering the interesting stuff (about 2 or 3 a week) that do appear, I still subscribe. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 20 16:30:26 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >> I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each > generation passes? > > I would have to answer this with a resounding YES! Wow, two "resounding" yesses ;) > There are many skills (engineering related or not) that are lost regularly. > You mentioned tube technology. My father was one of the most respected > engineering wiremen of the 1960's. He was highly sought after for making > harnesses by many companies. The art of hand lacing a harness is basically > lost. Harnesses of any significant size are rarely used anymore, and when > they are, they are almost invariably "tie wrapped". I am sure nearly every > list member could give a similar example. > > An alternative question of course is... > > "Does it matter if knowledge is lost as each generation passes?" > > This gets much more complicated...... This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to tubes to design electronic circuits? As long as the basics are retained and learned and taught--i.e. not specifically HOW a tube or transistor works but WHY and WHEN we need or want to use a device that provides a similar functionality--then teaching people about tubes (and eventually transistors) is pretty useless (unless, in the case of tubes, you are training someone to fix decades old electronic equipment). At some point, transistors will be as irrelevant as tubes. When tubes became irrelevant, they were replaced by transistors, and so everyone learned how to use, design with, or even build, transistors. Now, transistors (for logic operations at least) have been supplanted by ICs, and are fast becoming irrelevant (at least for logic designs, not necessarily power or signal designs). Again, the basics are what's key here: math, physics, chemistry. That will never change. Everything else is irrelevant ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From medavidson at mac.com Sun Jun 20 16:49:47 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Diablo 33F (Series 30) Disk Drive (D.G. Nova, Datapoint, etc) F.A. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Shoot... now if could find a Nova to attach the drive to, I'd be set (the Nova was my "first" computer; my school bought a Nova 830 that I learned to program on). Anyone know of a Nova available for a reasonable price? Mark On Jun 18, 2004, at 11:16 AM, Infra wrote: > > Greetings: > > Please view our auction listing for a Diablo Series 30 disk drive: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5103296988 > > This drive was part of a Data General Nova configuration; this model > was > also commonly used on Datapoint (2200) systems and many other > minicomputers. The Diablo I/O bus was also used by plug-compatible > drive makers. > > Included is a complete set of manuals on CD-ROM in PDF format. > > Funds are badly needed and any interest in this drive is much > appreciated. > > Regards, > > Michael Grigoni > Cybertheque Museum > msg@REMOVETHIScybertheque.org > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 20 16:57:40 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: Message-ID: <00b901c45711$9b8aec50$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 2:05 PM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) > > I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each > generation passes? > > My instinct would say "no", since the world is still working. People > still understand electronics, mechanics, physics, etc. People are still > being taught the fundamentals. One learns more in classrooms today than > they did 100 years ago. Much of the subject matter has changed, but the > basics remain the same. > > For example, we no longer learn how tubes/valves work, because we don't > design with them anymore. However, the functional basics are the same as > with transistors. We don't learn in detail how tubes or transistors work > because we aren't going to be designing and building new ones. Now we > learn how FPGAs and the like work because that's what we design with. In > 100 years, FPGAs will be quaint, just like vacuum tubes are today. But as > long as the basics are still being taught, the world will keep working. I think being able to do math with pencil and paper is a basic skill, today using a calculater is a basic skill (doing it by hand is a lost art). As long as there are no "middle ages" caused by war, disease, or other major catastrophy the world will keep going. The further ahead in the tech curve you are in the faster you can hit rock bottom again. Vietnam survived a major bombing campaign without problems, the US would have fallen back to the stone age under the same type of attack. At one company I worked for I got tired of uneducated sales people asking me the same simple questions all the time so I wrote a program where they entered tank dimensions, liquid level, pick a chemical solution from a drop down menu, entered the desired temperature, and picked a heat/cooling source (steam, electricity, etc) and it told them after many calculations (including heat loss to surroundings, etc) what size equipment to sell and what material to use (chemical compatibility). People loved the tool, and productivity soared (plus I got to do other important things with less interuptions). Still the second I am not around and some idiot deletes the program from the server their world will come crashing down. I wonder how many industries are close to crashing if some particular system or knowledge base kicks the bucket. Don't forget that there is more then one generation at work in an industry at one time. Lots of people on this email list probably work with younger techs who don't know half of what they do. Once the senior people retire (or get fired because they cost too much on a spreadsheet) its up to the younger ones to pull the slack (if they were smart enough to hire any before the old ones got the boot), and quite a few are not up to the task. It takes time to notice your workforce is deficient, and by then its too late to do anything about it. > > > The most important things I learned in college is how to deal with people > > you might not like but have to work with, the basics of the field I was in > > Exactly. But you don't need to go to school to learn this. A job as a > waiter in a restaurant will teach these skills quite nicely. I find its better to learn how to deal with people BEFORE you end up losing a job because your people skills were never tested and refined. If I don't like a waiter I can ask for another one, if I don't like the EE down the hall from me I am stuck dealing with him until one of us doesnt work there anymore. Without good team interaction projects today will not get done. I have seen first hand how a project can slow down and die because people in the group do not want to work together for personal reasons. The end result is somebody will get fired and their carear is in jeaperdy because they will not get a good recomendation from the people they worked with. > > > (that you DO use believe it or not for the rest of your life), and how to > > solve problems you never seen before in a logical way. > > That's what most people don't realize school is all about. It's not about > learning a subject matter, it's learning how to THINK properly (a skill > many people lack today, partially as evidenced by the mess the world is > currently in). > > The difference between an educated guess and a pull it out of your ass guess is the background in the subject a person has. People laugh at the guy saying its the current thats important not the voltage of a power supply. The difference between him and most of you is that he didn't have the education in the subject matter at hand, but learned enough to get by in his real world dealings. Learning how to think is extremely important, but so is having the education to know fire is caused by a chemical reaction and not a gift from the fire GOD. You can be a very inteligent person but still be very ignorant about specific subjects. The world is in a mess because of pure greed not because people can't think. They just think only of themselves. -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 20 17:16:29 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: Message-ID: <00d001c45714$3c82bd20$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > > That's what most people don't realize school is all about. It's not about > > learning a subject matter, it's learning how to THINK properly (a skill > > What planet are you on? Schools, at least in the UK, are there to stop > people thinking. If you think -- if you challenge (politely, I may add) > the teacher, if you start asking relevant questions, then you are a > 'troublemaker' and will be expelled or worse. > > It nearly happened to me several times (and yes, the questions I were > asking were certaioly applicable to the subject, and yes, the teacher was > talking rubbish half the time (which is why I asked said questions). > > > -tony It all depends on your school and the background of the teachers there. The local university I went to had a good teacher to student ratio and most of the teachers were from industry. You could ask them anything on the spot and they would either direct you on how to solve the problem, or solve it for you with chalk and the blackboard off the top of their head. One teacher that did not have industry experience would just puke up exactly what the book he was using said on the subject over and over, not very informative (hell I learned how to read a long time ago thanks). These teachers encouraged us to ask questions and to do undergraduate thesis because it would break us up into teams just like in a real world environment. My team ended up giving a presentation at Purdue university on our subject competing with the big name schools from across the country. While I was at Purdue I visited the classrooms, dorms, and labs there (we were given a tour). The things I remember were that the students living on campus tended to have quite a few BMW's in the parkinglot, the latest and greatest lab equipment was used by the tenured professors only (and their support staff), the classes were taught by undergrads or there was a videotape, and we had 20+ people in a room and they had 100+. I always wonder who got the better education for their money (I am sure they got better jobs because of the school name and having connections). TZ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Jun 20 17:32:43 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > That's what most people don't realize school is all about. It's not > about learning a subject matter, it's learning how to THINK properly > (a skill > What planet are you on? Schools, at least in the UK, are there to stop people thinking. If you think -- if you challenge (politely, I may add) the teacher, > if you start asking relevant >>> questions, then you are a 'troublemaker' and will be expelled or worse. Thinking Fahrenheit 451, Pink Floyd "The Wall", and many other references.... =========== >Does it matter that some knowledge is lost as generations go on? I think it does matter. Thinking "Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it". There were many "errors" made during the development phase of each earlier generation technology. People learned from these mistakes and finally made a workable technology for their generation. If the information is truly lost, then time/effort/etc will again be wasted. In some case this waste may incude enough overhead to cause perfectly good ideas to be abandoned just before "the breakthrough". I am remembering a book I read many years ago [can't place the title or author right now, but it may have been a "short" by Isaac Asimov]. The basic premise was: 1) Information was being lost, so a special class of people were set up to be caretakers [it was a high honor] 2) Time passed, knowledge grew, the caretakers grew, until there were more caretakers and "regular" people. 3) Civilization began to depend totally on the caretakers, who specialized in "old" knowledge. 4) Civilization became stagnant Alas, perhaps it is necessary for information to become lost....... [Not even pretending to know the answer to this one] From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 20 17:28:12 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010301c45715$df76efa0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > By your own admission we _are_ losing knowledge (in that, as you say, > valves are not taught any more, for example). But we (mostly) don't design using valves, so it's not a major issue. There are some branches of electronic design where it matters, but the vast majority of designers don't need that knowledge. > Maybe US schools are different to those in the UK, but over here, > fundamentals are most certainly not being taugh. Heck, > logarithms are no > longer taught in the the equivalent of your high schools, I believe. Log tables and their use don't seem to be. > [FIWW< the 'justification' for that is that logarithms were > only used to > make it easier to multiply numbers, and as everyone does that on a > calculator now, logarithms have no use. You know as well as I do that > this is totally bogus!] Well the principles behind logarithms do still seem to be taught, if my son's experience is anything to go by. Maybe he'll be forced to forget all about this soon :-) > people thinking. If you think -- if you challenge (politely, > I may add) > the teacher, if you start asking relevant questions, then you are a > 'troublemaker' and will be expelled or worse. There's always one :-) > It nearly happened to me several times (and yes, the questions I were > asking were certaioly applicable to the subject, and yes, the > teacher was > talking rubbish half the time (which is why I asked said questions). ... and they rarely learn from their errors :-) :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 20 18:15:18 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (Batteies) Message-ID: <0406202315.AA23280@ivan.Harhan.ORG> David V. Corbin wrote: > If a "sufficiently advanced technogoloy is indistinguishable from magic" and > many people that magic once existed on earth, is it not possible that the > older civilizations were actually more advanced than ours????? That's what Erich von Daniken, Zecharia Sitchin, Michael Cremo, David Hatcher Childress and me have been saying for a long time. MS From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 20 18:40:15 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (Batteies) References: <0406202315.AA23280@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <012801c4571f$f02ab570$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Sokolov" To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:15 PM Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (Batteies) > David V. Corbin wrote: > > > If a "sufficiently advanced technogoloy is indistinguishable from magic" and > > many people that magic once existed on earth, is it not possible that the > > older civilizations were actually more advanced than ours????? > > That's what Erich von Daniken, Zecharia Sitchin, Michael Cremo, David > Hatcher Childress and me have been saying for a long time. > > MS > There were times in history (such as after the fall of the roman empire) where lots of technology was lost for centuries. An example would be roman surgeons using analgesic silver staples to close wounds instead of later generations using bacteria inducing thread. But for the most part anything that is perceived as magic usually means the society has more uneducated people then educated ones (or religion has gotten in the way of scientific reason). Who is more advanced, the society that invents gunpowder and uses it for fireworks (Chinese) or the society (Europe) that uses gunpowder, a metal ball, and steel barrels to shoot the inventor in the ass with a projectile? Advanced to me is a mix of inventing something that was not there before, and having a practical use for it at the same time. From CCTalk at catcorner.org Sun Jun 20 18:45:27 2004 From: CCTalk at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Atari 520 at a yard sale today Message-ID: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435B3C@mail.catcorner.org> Never owned one, but couldn't resist. Complete Atari 520 ST, with floppy drive and power supplies. Any ACTIVE resources out there for these? I wouldn't mind upgrading the TOS, memory or putting together a hard disk interface. It has a video out port, and a composite NTSC out too. Thanks, Kelly From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 20 18:50:06 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Atari 520 at a yard sale today References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435B3C@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <014e01c45721$50ae3d30$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Leavitt" To: Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:45 PM Subject: Atari 520 at a yard sale today > Never owned one, but couldn't resist. Complete Atari 520 ST, with floppy > drive and power supplies. Any ACTIVE resources out there for these? I > wouldn't mind upgrading the TOS, memory or putting together a hard disk > interface. It has a video out port, and a composite NTSC out too. > > Thanks, > Kelly > http://www.atari-forum.com/ Try here, a very active forum with a hardware section. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 20 19:43:40 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & In-Reply-To: <007701c456f4$ed4a6060$bb72fea9@geoff> References: <007701c456f4$ed4a6060$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <200406210053.UAA29281@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A fellow technician once asked me : " If I wire 2 x 9v batteries in > parallel , will I get 4.5v or 18v ? " "No." :-) > We also had an ex- RAF guy who used to ask for a 250v fuse - not a > 12v one, a 250v one !? That actually makes some sense. When a fuse blows, it has to be able to interrupt the current flowing. One important part of this is the voltage that develops across the fuse; if it's too high, the fuse may arc over and conduct at least somewhat anyway (plasma is a relatively low-resistance substance). A fuse designed to break a 250V circuit will generally, for example, have its terminals farther apart internally than one designed to break a 12V circuit. (Once the fuse is blown and the system quiescent, the 12V fuse may be able to withstand 250V. But (a) at the moment of blowing, there is often arc-over present, and the gap has to be large enough to kill that arc, which requires a larger gap than necessary to keep it from restarting; and a fuse, like any overload protective device, should always be overdesigned by large factors anyway.) > Who was it said that ,to earlier civilisations, high technology would > appear to be magic ? Clarke's Third Law. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" is the phrasing I've come to know it by. ("Clarke" here is Arthur C. Clarke, the sf writer.) > Not that much earlier , it would appear. Very true. Or like the person who, upon running out of money in her bank account, rubbed a magnet across the magnetic stripe of her ATM card to recharge it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 20:02:50 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406152320.00812.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406152320.00812.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20040620200250.0e9ee48a.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 23:20:00 -0500 Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I think that's better than extending the 'oldness' limit, as there are > some machines (like DEC Alphas, IBM RS/6000s, Sun or SGI workstations, > etc) that I'd consider as valid for this list However, I have run Windows NT 4.0 on both DEC Alpha systems, and on an IBM RS/6000 box** . I've never committed the crime of having anything to do with the SGI boxes that sport an Intel processor and run NT, though. (Aieeee!, huh? ) (** I'm probably one of the .0001% of people who has seen a Windows NT desktop on a PowerPC system) From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 20 20:19:48 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <20040620200250.0e9ee48a.sastevens@earthlink.net> from Scott Stevens at "Jun 20, 4 08:02:50 pm" Message-ID: <200406210119.SAA14202@floodgap.com> > > I think that's better than extending the 'oldness' limit, as there are > > some machines (like DEC Alphas, IBM RS/6000s, Sun or SGI workstations, > > etc) that I'd consider as valid for this list > > However, I have run Windows NT 4.0 on both DEC Alpha systems, and on an > IBM RS/6000 box** . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You are so weird. > (** I'm probably one of the .0001% of people who has seen a Windows NT > desktop on a PowerPC system) (but then so am I ;) -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Actually, we can overcome gravity (just not the paperwork involved). ------- From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 20:14:22 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: <200406160146.i5G1kTHT008454@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20040620201422.0fb43806.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 20:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > On Tue, 15 Jun 2004, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > > > I have PCs running windows because I must, but I don't need the > > > > latest and greatest Microsoft offering, I am running Windows > > > > NT4.0 with Office 95 (which btw will soon be covered by the 10 > > > > year boundary :-). > > > > > > I expect the 10 year boundary for the list may be revised soon ;) > > > > Maybe the list simply needs to take a firm non-Windows stance, or > > else specifically OK non-Windows HW that would otherwise be blocked > > by the 10 year (or whatever it might get expanded to) rule. > > > > I for one don't care to see any posts about Windows, but wouldn't > > object to posts about say the Amiga OS 4.0 beta or an SGI Tezro. > > I think that's a bit absolute. In 6 years, when Windows 3.0 will be > 20 years old, if someone wishes to set up a Windows 3.0 box for a > historical exhibit, it should be perfectly acceptable to discuss that > here. > That, and there are perfectly acceptable and technically interesting reasons to discuss some obscure variants and machines that run Windows 3. Example: I have one of the original HP Omibook 300 machines. It was made by HP's Corvalis Division, the same group that made the classic HP Calculators. It has the same design heritage and quality as other Corvalis projects (it's significantly different that the crap HP later sold with the 'Omnibook' brandname). It's a 386sx machine with only 2 MB of memory, 4 PCMCIA slots and it runs Windows 3.1, Word 5 and Excel 4 out of ROM memory. In fact, Windows 3.1 and the Office components are directly embedded in a PCMCIA ROM card that plugs in as one of the Drives. The 'run directly out of ROM' design of the Omnibook 300 was a radical and expensive project at HP Corvalis, and while it's a dead-end architecture it's a really, really cool piece of work. The 'applications' and Windows itself run right out of ROM, not being loaded into RAM to run- something nobody tried before and nobody has ever tried since. So the machine can load up pretty hefty Excel spreadsheets and Word without impacting the tiny 2MB memory built into the machine. It's interesting enough that the Omnibook 300 is a unique machine, and technically significant. And it's a natural addition, along with the HP95lx and HP100 palmtop machines, to anybody collecting HP calculators. (It's also a cool machine because it runs on four ordinary AA batteries for practically forever.) > (I told you exceptions will apply ;') > Yep. It's an on-topic machine, by the ten-year rule. From sastevens at earthlink.net Sun Jun 20 20:21:58 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040620202158.67afcdd5.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 23:32:56 +0100 (BST) ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > about Windows and PCs of the 1990s. For example, see any Vesa > > Local Bus motherboards or interface cards around anymore? > > There is another issue here. Many of the machines that we currently > consider to be classices -- The 8 bit micros, PDP11s, PPD8s, HP9100s, > etc -- are repairable. Scheamtics exist, they were built from mostly > standard parts that are still easy to get. If I need a chip for the > I/O interface card in my HP9830 then most likely I can still get one. > > This, alas, doesn't apply to commodity PCs. Custom chips abound, > schematics don't exist (and probably wouldn't be a lot of use if the > did). I suspect that such machines will never really be repairable. > This _did_ apply to a lot of commodity PC hardware up to a certain point in time, however. I have XT and AT motherboards that only have standard TTL and a few Intel 82xx-series chips on them. The 'chipset' machines came during the 80286 era. I for one used to replace chips on XT motherboards after troubleshooting signals down to IC Pins with an oscilloscope. In fact, the early Taiwanese clone XT boards were near-perfect copies of each other, with the exact same TTL chips placed at the same places on the board as the IBM design. Often with the same IC numbers on the schematic. There's only one schematic diagram needed to troubleshoot a bunch of those boards (and I'm not talking about boards all produced by the same cloner). From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 20 19:53:25 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406210125.VAA29379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I think the question boils down: Are we losing any knowledge as each >> generation passes? > I would have to answer this with a resounding YES! Me too. Who nowadays can knap a stone knife? hunt and kill game with no weapon but a spear? make a bow, and arrows to go with it? make a fire with a wood drill, or even flint and steel? Or if you want skills less thoroughly lost, who can harness a yoke of oxen for plowing? forge a plow? forge a sword? Or even less so, who can ride a horse? do arithmetic on an abacus? use the English subjunctive correctly? ...design vacuum-tube circuits? John W. Campbell put it well in _Forgetfulness_. > An alternative question of course is... > "Does it matter if knowledge is lost as each generation passes?" > This gets much more complicated...... Does it matter? It better not, because knowledge _will_ be lost. Perhaps ask instead "Which knowledge can we afford to lose?".... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Sun Jun 20 20:36:00 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <200406210125.VAA29379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406210125.VAA29379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040621013600.GC3418@bos7.spole.gov> On Sun, Jun 20, 2004 at 08:53:25PM -0400, der Mouse wrote: > Me too. Who nowadays can knap a stone knife? hunt and kill game with > no weapon but a spear? make a bow, and arrows to go with it? make a > fire with a wood drill, or even flint and steel? I own flint and steel. I know how to use them, but I don't get the chance but once or twice a year. I own a bow, but I have never bow hunted (only straw and foam targets)... I did take a class on Equestrian Archery once (shooting _from_ the horse, not _at_ it). > Or if you want skills less thoroughly lost, who can harness a yoke of > oxen for plowing? forge a plow? forge a sword? I have forged knives, but not swords (you need a bigger forge ;-). I know many people who can, but then, I'm in a club where such skills are taught and cherished. > Or even less so, who can ride a horse? do arithmetic on an abacus? use > the English subjunctive correctly? 3 for 3 this time. :-) > ...design vacuum-tube circuits? Nope... 'though I did have a tube experimenters kit when I was about 11. It was an aluminum chassis, several sockets, and a fistful of misc passives. Something like a Radio Shack X-in-one, but with tubes. I think the only bit of knowledge that I carried away from it was the use and importance of 6.3VAC. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Jun-2004 01:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.9 F (-51.1 C) Windchill -86.09 F (-65.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.4 kts Grid 082 Barometer 688.9 mb (10293. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tomhudson at execpc.com Sun Jun 20 20:53:33 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Atari 520 at a yard sale today In-Reply-To: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435B3C@mail.catcorner.org> References: <3572C311B2DB4C418DAB189F1F190799435B3C@mail.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <40D63F9D.4030002@execpc.com> Oooh! Nice buy! Go check out http://www.atari.st/, home of the "Little Green Desktop". Lots of goodies there, including TOS ROMs. I used to do programming for the ST, and still have a 1MB 520 (with the kludgeyist [sp?] RAM upgrade you've ever seen) and a 4MB Mega ST, with 20 and 30MB hard drives. I don't really use them anymore, but they're in my attic and they really, really work. I hooked 'em up to my PC a while back and sucked all the files off , and using the STEEM emulator am able to run almost everything on the PC, even the MIDI software! Have fun! Kelly Leavitt wrote: >Never owned one, but couldn't resist. Complete Atari 520 ST, with floppy >drive and power supplies. Any ACTIVE resources out there for these? I >wouldn't mind upgrading the TOS, memory or putting together a hard disk >interface. It has a video out port, and a composite NTSC out too. > >Thanks, >Kelly > > > > From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 20 21:01:00 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >Does it matter that some knowledge is lost as generations go on? > > I think it does matter. Thinking "Those who forget the past are doomed to > repeat it". Are we really "doomed" to re-invent the vacuum tube? ;) > There were many "errors" made during the development phase of > each earlier generation technology. People learned from these mistakes and > finally made a workable technology for their generation. If the information > is truly lost, then time/effort/etc will again be wasted. In some case this > waste may incude enough overhead to cause perfectly good ideas to be > abandoned just before "the breakthrough". Again, I'm thinking in terms of vacuum tubes, and I can't see how losing the knowledge of how they worked is going to affect the future, or even the present for that matter. We're so beyond them technologically that they are irrelevant today. If we knew we were going to be plunged into another Dark Age (becoming likelier every day at the rate things are going) and somehow all knowledge subsequent to when vacuum tubes were state of the art is going to be lost then sure, I can see how teaching vacuum tube theory would be useful. But, as pessimistic as I am about humanity right now (or at least the future of the US) I don't think it's very realistic to assume this will happen. We still have historical records of how they were made. We still have (with some glaring holes) historical records of how all manner of technology for the past 5000 years has been accomplished, and we can re-learn and resconstruct old technology as we wish (mainly for hobby, but there are examples of utility, though rare). It would be neat to know how the Egyptians built the pyramids, but we have cranes and stuff for that today, so even if we knew their methods, is it really practical to teach them in engineering school? So one question might be: do we really need to overload EE students with theory about vacuum tubes when they'll probably never use them, much less come across them in the real world today? Or is it sufficient to have historical records on file for posterity? > I am remembering a book I read many years ago [can't place the title or > author right now, but it may have been a "short" by Isaac Asimov]. The basic > premise was: > > 1) Information was being lost, so a special class of people were set up to > be caretakers [it was a high honor] > 2) Time passed, knowledge grew, the caretakers grew, until there were more > caretakers and "regular" people. > 3) Civilization began to depend totally on the caretakers, who specialized > in "old" knowledge. > 4) Civilization became stagnant > > Alas, perhaps it is necessary for information to become lost....... It's called "progress". > [Not even pretending to know the answer to this one] Me niether, but I think I have a good idea as to what it is :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jun 20 21:21:03 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: Message-ID: <00a901c45736$66fc5580$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 10:01 PM Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > > Again, I'm thinking in terms of vacuum tubes, and I can't see how losing > the knowledge of how they worked is going to affect the future, or even > the present for that matter. We're so beyond them technologically that > they are irrelevant today. > >> Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- What about those old farts that rely on vacuum tubes for their big expensive audio amps? Some company even sells a few mounted to a PC motherboard for the esoteric sound we love to hear playing Quake 3. The world would be so much better if management schools would bring back "Difference between your posterior orifice and a hole in the ground 101", knowing the difference in management is a dead art. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 20 21:39:46 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > It would be neat to know how the Egyptians built the pyramids, but we have > cranes and stuff for that today, so even if we knew their methods, is it > really practical to teach them in engineering school? No modern cranes or other machinery can come even close to building the 3 Orion pyramids on the Giza plateau or the Baalbek stone platform in the mountains of Lebanon. The only technology that can build such structures is antigravity, which is how they were actually built. Yes, get this, technology was more advanced many thousands of years ago than it is today. Devolution is all around us. The devolution of the past 20 y or so that Tony and others lament is merely a continuation of the devolution that has been going on for the past 4000 years, ever since the year 2024 BCE when our cosmic ancestors and teachers, the Anunnaki, were overthrown and forced off this planet by the dark extraterrestrial reptilian race I call Yahwists, who are the force behind Judeo-Xtianity (the "God" entity is actually them, those galactic criminals). This tragedy occurred because of a security hole in the ancient computer systems of Anunnaki (to bring this on topic). The Yahwists managed to introduce a virus into Anunnaki's central command mainframe at their NOC on Mt. Moriah (which became Jerusalem centuries later) and generated commands to launch their nuclear missiles against their major cities (including Sodom and Gomorrah), their spaceport in the Sinai peninsula, and their key technological base on Mt. Katherine. The destruction was complete when the Jewish horde (with Yahweh's UFO flying overhead) overran Jericho. Legendary records of this lost Golden Age remained in the Library of Alexandria, but the Christians took care of that. Oh, and the Giza pyramid complex is NOT ~4500 years old as commonly believed. It is actually about 12500 y old, if not more. The 3 pyramids are arranged exactly as the belt stars of Orion: Zeta Orionis, Epsilon Orionis and Delta Orionis. The Great Pyramid is not the Pyramid of Cheops or Khufu, it's the pyramid of Zeta Orionis. The catch, however, that the astronomical alignments in the Giza complex (yes, complex, it was completely designed as a single unit before any one piece was built) do not match the stars as they appear in the sky today, but they match the stars as they appeared 12500 y ago. (The change is due to the precession of Earth's axis: the North Pole points at Polaris today, but 12500 y ago it pointed at Vega, as it will again in another 12500 y or so. The complete precessional cycle is 25920 y.) The extensive rain erosion on the Sphinx suggests a similar date. MS From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 20 21:47:01 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Diablo 33F (Series 30) Disk Drive (D.G. Nova, Datapoint, etc) F.A. References: Message-ID: <002801c4573a$07fbf910$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Anyone know of a Nova available for a reasonable price? Yup, and I'm buying it (Nova 3). I believe I know where another Nova 3 is, email me off list and I'll fill you in. Probably not cheap though. Now I just need to find a Nova 1200, then I'm all set on DG gear :) Jay West From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 20 21:40:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <010301c45715$df76efa0$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 20, 4 11:28:12 pm Message-ID: > > Maybe US schools are different to those in the UK, but over here, > > fundamentals are most certainly not being taugh. Heck, > > logarithms are no > > longer taught in the the equivalent of your high schools, I believe. > > Log tables and their use don't seem to be. > > > [FIWW< the 'justification' for that is that logarithms were > > only used to > > make it easier to multiply numbers, and as everyone does that on a > > calculator now, logarithms have no use. You know as well as I do that > > this is totally bogus!] > > Well the principles behind logarithms do still > seem to be taught, if my son's experience is THis may vary by examination board, but at the HPCC meeting last week, one of the members brought alogn a Sharp calculator 'recomended for A-level' The thing was, it didn't have any logarithm or e^X keys (it did have y^x). And teachers at the club meeting confirmed that, yes, logarithms were not longer required to be taught. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 20 21:45:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 20, 4 07:01:00 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > >Does it matter that some knowledge is lost as generations go on? > > > > I think it does matter. Thinking "Those who forget the past are doomed to > > repeat it". > > Are we really "doomed" to re-invent the vacuum tube? ;) You might joke, but a few years ago (and I don't mean 50 years ago :-)), I was reading about a new device that was consisted essentially of field-emitting (rather than thermionic emitting) valves etched into a silicon chip. The principles, other than the cathode, of course, were identical to those of the valve. The advantage of such devices is that they were much more radiation-hard than conventional transsitor-based chips. A few years before that I read about a new sort of memory, based on quantized magnetic flux through a superconduction loop. The principle of reading and writing were identical to core memory. I remember laughing as they descrived provlems and possible solutions that were totally obvious to anyone who'd ever worked on said ferrite core memory.... -tony From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 20 21:54:50 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > This tragedy occurred because of a security hole in the ancient computer > systems of Anunnaki (to bring this on topic). Oh, good thing you brought this back on topic. I thought you were going to continue the post as a whole message of nerdy sci-fi rantings. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 20 22:17:59 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:40 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from Vintage Computer Festival at "Jun 20, 4 07:54:50 pm" Message-ID: <200406210317.UAA14306@floodgap.com> > > This tragedy occurred because of a security hole in the ancient computer > > systems of Anunnaki (to bring this on topic). > > Oh, good thing you brought this back on topic. I thought you were going > to continue the post as a whole message of nerdy sci-fi rantings. On *this* mailing list? I'm shocked. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- It's the car, right? Chicks dig the car. -- "Batman Forever" --------------- From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 20 22:08:10 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <0406210308.AA23732@ivan.Harhan.ORG> > Are we really "doomed" to re-invent the vacuum tube? ;) My dad told me that he designed special vacuum tubes for the Soviet Venus missions, which were special tubes made of ceramics that could work at 500 deg C. Those spacecraft were able to last several hours on Venus before giving up the ghost. No semiconductor can work at 500 deg C. MS From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 22:11:36 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Ancient Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040620200936.A5633@newshell.lmi.net> > > This tragedy occurred because of a security hole in the ancient computer > > systems of Anunnaki (to bring this on topic). > Oh, good thing you brought this back on topic. I thought you were going > to continue the post as a whole message of nerdy sci-fi rantings. ... and where is Bill Gates REALLY from? From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Jun 20 22:13:29 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Ancient Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <0406210313.AA23774@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Fred Cisin wrote: > ... and where is Bill Gates REALLY from? >From Hell of course, where else? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 20 22:15:56 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406210308.AA23732@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406210308.AA23732@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200406210318.XAA29988@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...]. No semiconductor can work at 500 deg C. Well...none of the semiconductors we use at lower temperatures, but that's not surprising. I'd be surprised if there were no materials that would work as semiconductors at that sort of temperature. (Finding them would be comparatively difficult for us, to be sure.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 22:29:40 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Ancient Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406210313.AA23774@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406210313.AA23774@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040620202705.E5633@newshell.lmi.net> On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > ... and where is Bill Gates REALLY from? > > >From Hell of course, where else? I don't think so. John Dvorak reported that reliable sources overheard Bill Gates and the devil negotiating. Satan still doesn't know how he lost his soul to Bill Gates. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 20 22:59:19 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Ancient Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040620202705.E5633@newshell.lmi.net> References: <0406210313.AA23774@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20040620202705.E5633@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040620205833.U5633@newshell.lmi.net> > Satan still doesn't know how he lost his soul to Bill Gates. http://www.tmk.com/ftp/humor/gates_and_devil.txt From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 20 23:03:03 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There are many skills (engineering related or not) that are lost regularly. > You mentioned tube technology. Bad example. Very little about the technology of tubes is lost. What is lost are small details that don't add up to much (certainly it would be nice to fill these details in, and there are quite a few people doing so). Just because average Joe Engineer doesn't know how a tube works doesn't mean the information is lost. > My father was one of the most respected > engineering wiremen of the 1960's. He was highly sought after for making > harnesses by many companies. The art of hand lacing a harness is basically > lost. No it is not, although not many people use it. It is still used in the AT&T and some MCI telephone world. In fact, the very first AT&T Worldnet dialup equipment was hand laced (by me). I ran into many not-so-old timers that still would lace up cables by hand perfectly. Certainly some history is lost, but generally it is not the theory. What gets lost is knowledge about specific instances - specific equipments, how they worked, why they were made, who used them, etc.. For example (with tubes), some of the knowledge about how early tube computers is probably lost*. Maybe nobody saved the prints to an IBM 701 or Burroughs 205. However, we know the theory behind these machines. Go to the library and pull out any of the trade magazines from the 1950s, and you will know everything there is to know about how to make digital circuits with tubes, and probably with some looking, specifically how IBM and Burroughs made digital circuits with tubes. The theory is there, preserved. *although I am always hopeful that lost info will be found. Somehow it manages to surface from the weirdest places. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 20 23:15:54 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <200406210125.VAA29379@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > Me too. Who nowadays can knap a stone knife? hunt and kill game with > no weapon but a spear? make a bow, and arrows to go with it? make a > fire with a wood drill, or even flint and steel? Who the hell needs to know this stuff on a daily basisanyway? If you need to know how to do this stuff, ask someone that knows, or go to the library. The knowledge isn't lost, people, it is archived just where it ought to be. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 20 23:20:45 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406210433.AAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Who nowadays can knap a stone knife? hunt and kill game with no >> weapon but a spear? make a bow, and arrows to go with it? make a >> fire with a wood drill, or even flint and steel? > Who the hell needs to know this stuff on a daily basisanyway? Exactly: not all knowledge loss is problematic. > If you need to know how to do this stuff, ask someone that knows, or > go to the library. > The knowledge isn't lost, people, it is archived just where it ought > to be. Is it? These aren't exactly things on which textbooks are written. (I do recall reading of some archaeological team who taught themselves to knap stone tools, but I'm inclined to doubt it's the kind of knowledge that lends itself very well to recording.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Sun Jun 20 23:41:02 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <200406210433.AAA10299@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: > Is it? These aren't exactly things on which textbooks are written. I am sure you can find hundreds of books and thousands of papers and thesis all about ancient tool making. At the library. Pick a obsolete area of electronics - one where the information is "lost" - then do a little searching for it. You may be suprised at what you find. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 21 01:53:04 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <011d01c4575c$6691dea0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > THis may vary by examination board, but at the HPCC meeting > last week, > one of the members brought alogn a Sharp calculator 'recomended for > A-level' The thing was, it didn't have any logarithm or e^X > keys (it did > have y^x). I don't know who recommends the Sharp, but the broken (crushed screen) Casio fx-83WA that my kids both use (hence the broken screen...) has x^y and x ROOT y, 10^x and log, e^x and ln, trig functions and their inverses and the hyperbolic version, and standard deviation. It has fractions too, which seems to be the main obvious difference between that and the fx-550 which I think I used an Uni. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Mon Jun 21 01:57:55 2004 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Downsizing a Convex SPP1600? Message-ID: <9914.1087801075@www1.gmx.net> Hello everybody, as there were a few posts about HP Convex multiprocessor computers on the list last week, I thought I'd jump in and ask a few questions for the job I'm currently doing a few hours a week. The University of Erlangen (Northern Bavaria) has a collection of computing equipment and the like, which is run by a former boss of the regional computing centre. When I showed up there at the beginning of my Electrical Engineering studies and had a talk with him, he offered me a student job - which I subsequently accepted. A few months ago we got a Convex SPP-1600 which was decommissioned by the computing center due to a hardware fault (rumour: Bad PSU in one cabinet). This is a 3-cabinet unit and we would like to show part of it as an exhibit - since the entire computer is too big to fit in our showroom, we would like to set up only one unit and put the remaining two into storage. The question now is: Could this sucker be reconfigured in a way which would allow the separated unit (obviously one with a sound PSU...) to actually operate, using the original HP frontend machine? I understand the memory interconnects between the processors are fairly complex so I fear it's not just a matter of "un-plug and play"... We haven't found any documentation about such reconfiguration jobs and we think it might not even been handed out to customers. Calling HP Field Service is obviously out of question (obsolete machine, constrained budget), so any information about this is greatly appreciated. Yours sincerely -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de "Sie haben neue Mails!" - Die GMX Toolbar informiert Sie beim Surfen! Jetzt aktivieren unter http://www.gmx.net/info From whdawson at localisps.net Mon Jun 21 02:56:05 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: ROLF. I haven't laughed this hard in sooooo long! Great! Damn, I can't stop laughing. Brilliant. > This tragedy occurred because of a security hole in the ancient computer > systems of Anunnaki (to bring this on topic). Awesome. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Michael. Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Michael Sokolov > Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 22:40 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & > headcount... ; > > > Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > It would be neat to know how the Egyptians built the pyramids, > but we have > > cranes and stuff for that today, so even if we knew their methods, is it > > really practical to teach them in engineering school? > > No modern cranes or other machinery can come even close to building > the 3 Orion pyramids on the Giza plateau or the Baalbek stone platform > in the mountains of Lebanon. The only technology that can build such > structures is antigravity, which is how they were actually built. > > Yes, get this, technology was more advanced many thousands of years ago > than it is today. Devolution is all around us. The devolution of the > past 20 y or so that Tony and others lament is merely a continuation of > the devolution that has been going on for the past 4000 years, ever since > the year 2024 BCE when our cosmic ancestors and teachers, the Anunnaki, > were overthrown and forced off this planet by the dark extraterrestrial > reptilian race I call Yahwists, who are the force behind Judeo-Xtianity > (the "God" entity is actually them, those galactic criminals). > > This tragedy occurred because of a security hole in the ancient computer > systems of Anunnaki (to bring this on topic). The Yahwists managed to > introduce a virus into Anunnaki's central command mainframe at their > NOC on Mt. Moriah (which became Jerusalem centuries later) and generated > commands to launch their nuclear missiles against their major cities > (including Sodom and Gomorrah), their spaceport in the Sinai peninsula, > and their key technological base on Mt. Katherine. The destruction was > complete when the Jewish horde (with Yahweh's UFO flying overhead) overran > Jericho. Legendary records of this lost Golden Age remained in the > Library of Alexandria, but the Christians took care of that. > > Oh, and the Giza pyramid complex is NOT ~4500 years old as commonly > believed. It is actually about 12500 y old, if not more. The 3 pyramids > are arranged exactly as the belt stars of Orion: Zeta Orionis, Epsilon > Orionis and Delta Orionis. The Great Pyramid is not the Pyramid of Cheops > or Khufu, it's the pyramid of Zeta Orionis. The catch, however, that the > astronomical alignments in the Giza complex (yes, complex, it was > completely > designed as a single unit before any one piece was built) do not match > the stars as they appear in the sky today, but they match the stars as > they appeared 12500 y ago. (The change is due to the precession > of Earth's > axis: the North Pole points at Polaris today, but 12500 y ago it pointed > at Vega, as it will again in another 12500 y or so. The complete > precessional cycle is 25920 y.) The extensive rain erosion on the Sphinx > suggests a similar date. > > MS > From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Mon Jun 21 03:49:24 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Ferranti? Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <000701c456f4$50f97070$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> References: <007101c45676$5b129290$0500fea9@game> <3.0.6.32.20040620095105.008e7100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <000701c456f4$50f97070$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040621093446.040dce38@pop.freeserve.net> [post reordered] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 20, 2004 6:51 AM Subject: Ferranti? Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) > At 10:34 AM 6/20/04 +0100, Rob wrote: > > > > > >Sadly this is true in computing as well. I don't have a degree, the only > >college I went to was a technical college, one day a week sponsored by the > >company I was working for as an apprentice (Ferranti, may they rest in > >peace). > > What happened to Ferranti? We used to use one of their RADARs on the > system that I worked on but I haven't heard anything about them since the > program was cancelled. At 19:28 20/06/2004, ed sharpe wrote: >Ferranti? > they also made computers... we have some stuff on them around here >somewhere.... They did. As an apprentice, I used to work for Ferranti Computer Systems, Cheadle-Heath Division. The computer systems were used in various applications, including the central control computers for various Police and Fire authorities (I actually had my hands inside North Yorkshire Police computer in Bradford once. Apparently it had an adventure game on it too, the operators could swap into when they were otherwise idle.) They did a lot of military stuff too. I was particularly impressed by one simulator system for subs - it created a picture of ships and stuff on the ocean, as you would see looking up the periscope. Very realistic graphics - certainly very impressive in 1983 or thereabouts. (though a gamecube would blow it away these days!) Not counting a scrolling LED sign I made myself as a project, my sole surviving Ferranti computer relic from those days is a badge from a cabinet (found new unused, and applied to a disc storage box) marked "Ferranti EWTS". I think it is Early Warning Tracking[or maybe Training] System. I think my ex-wife has thrown out the "Ministry of Aviation" serialised filing cabinet I also had until a few years ago when we parted company.. I left at the end of my apprenticeship to join Micronet in London, at the start of the on-line revolution. Ferranti's demise came a few years later, I believe, when they paid over the odds to acquire some US based company, only to discover it was an empty shell... Banks then pulled the plug. I'm sure there will be articles about it on the web somewhere.. Rob From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Mon Jun 21 06:18:24 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: > Again, I'm thinking in terms of vacuum tubes, and I can't see how losing > the knowledge of how they worked is going to affect the future, or even > the present for that matter. I'm guessing that there is at least one piece of equipment in your house that relies on a vacuum tube to opperate that is not some sort of display device. > We're so beyond them technologically that they are irrelevant today. So you don't want television, or radio, or communications satellites, or radar, or ... Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 07:09:02 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> > My father was one of the most respected engineering wiremen of the >>> > 1960's. He was highly sought after for making harnesses by many >>> > companies. The art of hand lacing a harness is basically lost. >>> >>> No it is not, although not many people use it. It is still >>> used in the AT&T and some MCI telephone world. In fact, the >>> very first AT&T Worldnet dialup equipment was hand laced >>> (by me). I ran into many not-so-old timers that still would >>> lace up cables by hand perfectly. >>> Good to hear there are others who have/do hand lace. Just a few questions out of curiosity... Were these true harnesses or were they cable assemblies. The difference being that a true harness is completely assembled prior to installation [usually on a board] where a cabble assembly is the use of lacing (or other methods) to "dress" simple cables [Simple in the respect that they are usually point to point [2 connectors] or have few branches]? Did you use spot stitch, running stitches, or locking stitches? I can still do a decent spot or running stitch, but struggle with getting a decent [even spacing, high tension, low torsion] stitch. If these were board build harnsesses were they "rigid"? I remember being young [a kid actually] and being amazed when a harness [made with 22 or 24 gauge stranded teflon wire] could be lifed off the board, held vertical [often well over 6 feet long] from the bottom and completely retain its shape without any droop in the extended side branches.... David From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 07:19:07 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 : Lets see where this one goes... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5103745074& rd=1 Pobably the most complete system I have seen being made available.... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 21 07:19:12 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <1087820351.9051.13.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 02:39, Michael Sokolov wrote: > The only technology that can build such > structures is antigravity, which is how they were actually built. Heh :-) That reminds me, I must read Nick Cook's 'Hunt for Zero Point' sometime. Supposedly a good read with some pretty compelling evidence. Nothing like a good conspiracy theory. I do have some good photos of the modern day remains of whatever the Nazi's *were* researching out in Poland 60 years ago which makes for interesting speculation. Who knows what was being attempted there. cheers Jules From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Jun 21 07:28:08 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: <10406170119.ZM12249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <10406170119.ZM12249@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <73C91AFE-C37E-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 17 Jun 2004, at 10:19, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I did that too, and I think I joined after Tony. According to my > SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP confirmation email (you all kept yours, didn't > you?) from Bill, I joined on Wed, 25 Feb 1998 17:00:15 PST. I don't have my subscribe confirmation e-mail but the earliest e-mail I have in my Classiccmp archive is dated 11 July 1997 when the list was hosted at Washington U. (I have some e-mails from earlier dates (like 5 January 1980) but I suspect this is something to do with broken mailers). I guess I've been here a while :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 21 07:55:47 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <1087820351.9051.13.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <00d301c4578f$12c337a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:19 AM Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 02:39, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > The only technology that can build such > > structures is antigravity, which is how they were actually built. > > Heh :-) > > That reminds me, I must read Nick Cook's 'Hunt for Zero Point' sometime. > Supposedly a good read with some pretty compelling evidence. > > Nothing like a good conspiracy theory. I do have some good photos of the > modern day remains of whatever the Nazi's *were* researching out in > Poland 60 years ago which makes for interesting speculation. Who knows > what was being attempted there. > > cheers > > Jules > > > And what were the Germans researching in Poland 60 years ago? Enquiring minds want to know! :) I find allot of the magical technology needed to make ancient structures is not that magical at all. All that's needed is good planning, somebody who can do simple math, allot of labor, and the will to expend allot of time and energy to get the thing done. I don't think the pyramids of Egypt are a technological marvel, they are a marvel of execution. Ask somebody to spend most of their summer out in a desert pulling massive rocks up a ramp for 40 years (their whole dam life back then) so Bill Gates can have a cushy place to rot in and people would tell you to go pound salt. If some cleric wakes up one day and says Allah needs a pyramid built in the desert in his name now you have millions of dedicated volunteers to do the job and it WILL get done. We tend to forget that these magical ancient people (with help from aliens) did get the angles needed to keep the structure stable wrong and had to start over or change the blueprints (after working dozens of years) when the pyramid fell apart. People get too caught up in the current way things are done to see that there are very simple ways to do the same exact thing if you have enough labor and the will to do it. Do you need a college trained surveyor team with laser rangefinders and massive earthmovers to flatten a few acres so you can build a pyramid that doesn't have a slant in it? No, you don't. Have a few thousand people clear off the sand till they hit rock, then dig small channels every so many yards that intersect every so often. Flood the ground with water and then just clear the rock until it at water lever all over and your done (except for letting the water drain or evaporate and filling in the channels). Have an orchard that has too many birds eating your crop? You can either rent a few plains to spray pesticide or do what the Chinese did and have the village show up with sticks and beat the tree branches causing all the birds to fly around scared with no place to land until they die of exhaustion and all fall down dead (seen it done in a video and it doesn't take that long, very simple method if you have the people to do it). Chinese built whole runways for B-29's in record time during WWII with just human labor and common sense building techniques. That country has a history of doing clever things to get the job done, now that they can make their own computer chips and are coming out of the economic stone age (meaning instead of being cheap labor for outside companies they are building the industry up themselves) other countries better look the out. TZ From MTPro at aol.com Mon Jun 21 07:54:44 2004 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: <5403B5F0.6211811A.0000EF7A@aol.com> > > However, I have run Windows NT 4.0 on both DEC Alpha systems, and on an > > IBM RS/6000 box** . > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > You are so weird. > > > (** I'm probably one of the .0001% of people who has seen > a Windows NT > > desktop on a PowerPC system) > > (but then so am I ;) Did you see it running on an Apple Common Hardware Reference Platform (CHRP) box, or an IBM one? I was really looking forward to being able to run my Mac OS and IBM's OS/2 on future Macs back in 1995! That's almost 10 years ago now! Best, David Greelish, classiccomputing.com From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 21 08:32:58 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <00d301c4578f$12c337a0$0500fea9@game> References: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <1087820351.9051.13.camel@weka.localdomain> <00d301c4578f$12c337a0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <1087824778.9051.42.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-21 at 12:55, Teo Zenios wrote: > And what were the Germans researching in Poland 60 years ago? Enquiring > minds want to know! :) Well antigravity research is the most common theory. The underground complex is absolutely enormous, complemented by strange surface structures buried within the countryside (the large concrete henge is the one most often referred to). Common sense seems to say that there's no reason to suspect that the claims aren't true - of course how far the research went is quite another matter :-) Maybe I'll pick up Nick Cook's book this week sometime. I'm curious as to what evidence he presents for the Nazi research being taken over by the US at the end of the war. > I find allot of the magical technology needed to make ancient structures is > not that magical at all. All that's needed is good planning, somebody who > can do simple math, allot of labor, and the will to expend allot of time and > energy to get the thing done. Absolutely. It's interesting how research in the last few years has demonstrated that ancient civilisations knew far more about astronomy than anyone previously expected though (I mean the fact that these people knew way more than they were previously given credit for, not the "maybe aliens helped them" angle :-) But as you say, the creation of the structures themselves can be explained away by lots of planning and physical labour. Occasionally archaelogists do try and propose a link between ancient civilisations and magic (and / or aliens) - Graham Hancock seems to be at the forefront of these. :-) > We tend to forget that these magical ancient people (with help from > aliens) did get the angles needed to keep the structure stable wrong and had > to start over or change the blueprints (after working dozens of years) when > the pyramid fell apart. Well for the most part they got it right - the Bent Pyramid at Dahshur is the most notable exception. Very impressive engineering though. Anyway, I don't think I've ever been so far off topic ;-) cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 21 09:06:25 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Were these true harnesses or were they cable assemblies. The difference > being that a true harness is completely assembled prior to installation > [usually on a board] where a cabble assembly is the use of lacing (or other > methods) to "dress" simple cables [Simple in the respect that they are > usually point to point [2 connectors] or have few branches]? > Does anyone have pictures of how these kind of frames were built? I'm going to have to build at least two of them soon for my simulator project. I plan on lacing the wiring harnesses that run down the side consoles since it looks so much nicer than dozens of wire-ties. > Did you use spot stitch, running stitches, or locking stitches? I can still > do a decent spot or running stitch, but struggle with getting a decent [even > spacing, high tension, low torsion] stitch. > Is there a tutorial anywhere that illustrates these various stitches and where/why they are to be used? tnx! g. From jbmcb at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 08:58:34 2004 From: jbmcb at hotmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... Message-ID: >From: Scott Stevens >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic >Posts" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Subject: Re: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... >Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2004 20:02:50 -0500 > >I've never committed the crime of having anything to do with the SGI >boxes that sport an Intel processor and run NT, though. > >(Aieeee!, huh? ) > I think those are going to be collectable machines. I've been looking for a cheap one for a while. It's a really interesting architecture. Custom memory bus (== EXPENSIVE memory modules) Custom system bus and integrated video controller. These things were way ahead of anything else at the time, unfortunatly for SGI the PC hardware market catches up quickly and commodity PC hardware had the kind of bus speeds their workstations had within a year (RAMBUS, BOO! HISS!) As vertically marketed as they were they don't run anything other than Windows NT. I think there's a version of Linux floating around for them, and odds are NetBSD will at least boot on them (Horray for serial console! :) >(** I'm probably one of the .0001% of people who has seen a Windows NT >desktop on a PowerPC system) I've got Visual Studio 5 for PowerPC if you're interested... _________________________________________________________________ Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win a trip to NY http://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/ From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 21 09:24:06 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: DEC Professional 350 References: <20040616074354.318B079005F@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> <04061608223400.00933@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <16598.61318.119510.334332@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "pavl" == pavl writes: pavl> You aught to be able to run any pdp-11 operating system except pavl> ATT V7 unix(no supported peripherals), BSD2.11(no I+D), and I pavl> don't think mumps will work. I'm pretty sure you can use at pavl> least a rd53. Definitely not. A PRO has a completely different (and very badly designed) bus, a completely different set of peripheral controllers, and even a different (bogus) interrupt system. It takes MAJOR changes to support those machines. P/OS is the original PRO OS. It's an RSX11-M derivative. It may be that regular 11-M runs as well, I don't remember. A sufficiently new RT-11 definitely works. There are Unices that work on it, some from DEC, some not (rumor has it that BSD 2.11 works, I haven't tried that). RSTS will NOT work unless you get my patches, which exist in fairly finished form for V9.6 but aren't generally available. As for the disks, I believe there are two flavors of the hard drive controller, and the older of the two doesn't support RD53. I can't remember whether it goes as high as RD52, and the docs I can find aren't enough help... paul pavl> Pavl_ On Wednesday 16 June 2004 12:43 am, you wrote: >> Hello list, I've been recently offered a Pro350 unit, depending on >> whether I can get past my budget and the wife. :-) >> >> Said unit has 256kB RAM and a 10MB disk, presumably a RD51. No >> operating system. 4 SLU async card. VR201 monochrome monitor. F-11 >> CPU (LSI-11/23). >> >> Some questions I have: 1. What OS can I run on this system? (Yes, >> I've heard the nightmares of the Piece of S* O/S). I was thinking >> in lines of RT-11...if so possible, then where can I get RT-11 for >> the Pro350? Is RSX-11 available for the Pro350? >> >> 2. Correct me if I'm wrong: Since it's the F-11 CPU, then it'll be >> limited to 18-bit addressing, therefore maximum RAM supported is >> 256kB, right? >> >> 3. Can I "upgrade" the RD51 with a RD54? Perhaps that depends of >> the bootROM and O/S support, right? >> >> Thanks. /wai-sun From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Jun 21 09:40:42 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) Message-ID: <33518330.1087828847135.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> here is some info for lacing... http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/87394-9.pdf it shows some of the stitches, etc at least. It doesn't show a board layout though. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Gene Buckle Sent: Jun 21, 2004 10:06 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) > Were these true harnesses or were they cable assemblies. The difference > being that a true harness is completely assembled prior to installation > [usually on a board] where a cabble assembly is the use of lacing (or other > methods) to "dress" simple cables [Simple in the respect that they are > usually point to point [2 connectors] or have few branches]? > Does anyone have pictures of how these kind of frames were built? I'm going to have to build at least two of them soon for my simulator project. I plan on lacing the wiring harnesses that run down the side consoles since it looks so much nicer than dozens of wire-ties. > Did you use spot stitch, running stitches, or locking stitches? I can still > do a decent spot or running stitch, but struggle with getting a decent [even > spacing, high tension, low torsion] stitch. > Is there a tutorial anywhere that illustrates these various stitches and where/why they are to be used? tnx! g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 21 10:26:29 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <33518330.1087828847135.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: > here is some info for lacing... > > http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/87394-9.pdf > > it shows some of the stitches, etc at least. It doesn't show a board > layout though. Thanks Steve! g. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 21 07:29:23 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: <200406210119.SAA14202@floodgap.com> References: <20040620200250.0e9ee48a.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040621082923.008d9bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 06:19 PM 6/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > >> > I think that's better than extending the 'oldness' limit, as there are >> > some machines (like DEC Alphas, IBM RS/6000s, Sun or SGI workstations, >> > etc) that I'd consider as valid for this list >> >> However, I have run Windows NT 4.0 on both DEC Alpha systems, and on an >> IBM RS/6000 box** . > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >You are so weird. > >> (** I'm probably one of the .0001% of people who has seen a Windows NT >> desktop on a PowerPC system) > >(but then so am I ;) I have two of them sitting in my living room. Joe From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 21 07:43:31 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: < Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040621084331.008dc720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Whoa! Hold it! Let's get out of the extreme cases. We're not talking about specialized knowledge such as how to build a vacuum tube that only specialists knew even in the heyday of the vacuum tubes. We're taling about evveryday practicle things such as how to remove the cylider head of an engine and replace a valve or how to use something as simple as a single transistor. Sure we've lost the knowledge of how the Egyptians moved blocks to built the pyramids but it hardly matters. What worries me is that fact that I see almost no one growing up today that can repair ANYTHING other than plug-n-play much less design anything. It's the same case in simple mechanics, electronics, programming (how many college students today can program in machine langauage or even Fortran?) and probably every other technical field. Joe At 07:01 PM 6/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > >On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, David V. Corbin wrote: > >> >Does it matter that some knowledge is lost as generations go on? >> >> I think it does matter. Thinking "Those who forget the past are doomed to >> repeat it". > >Are we really "doomed" to re-invent the vacuum tube? ;) > >> There were many "errors" made during the development phase of >> each earlier generation technology. People learned from these mistakes and >> finally made a workable technology for their generation. If the information >> is truly lost, then time/effort/etc will again be wasted. In some case this >> waste may incude enough overhead to cause perfectly good ideas to be >> abandoned just before "the breakthrough". > >Again, I'm thinking in terms of vacuum tubes, and I can't see how losing >the knowledge of how they worked is going to affect the future, or even >the present for that matter. We're so beyond them technologically that >they are irrelevant today. > >If we knew we were going to be plunged into another Dark Age (becoming >likelier every day at the rate things are going) and somehow all knowledge >subsequent to when vacuum tubes were state of the art is going to be lost >then sure, I can see how teaching vacuum tube theory would be useful. >But, as pessimistic as I am about humanity right now (or at least the >future of the US) I don't think it's very realistic to assume this will >happen. > >We still have historical records of how they were made. We still have >(with some glaring holes) historical records of how all manner of >technology for the past 5000 years has been accomplished, and we can >re-learn and resconstruct old technology as we wish (mainly for hobby, but >there are examples of utility, though rare). > >It would be neat to know how the Egyptians built the pyramids, but we have >cranes and stuff for that today, so even if we knew their methods, is it >really practical to teach them in engineering school? > >So one question might be: do we really need to overload EE students with >theory about vacuum tubes when they'll probably never use them, much less >come across them in the real world today? Or is it sufficient to have >historical records on file for posterity? > >> I am remembering a book I read many years ago [can't place the title or >> author right now, but it may have been a "short" by Isaac Asimov]. The basic >> premise was: >> >> 1) Information was being lost, so a special class of people were set up to >> be caretakers [it was a high honor] >> 2) Time passed, knowledge grew, the caretakers grew, until there were more >> caretakers and "regular" people. >> 3) Civilization began to depend totally on the caretakers, who specialized >> in "old" knowledge. >> 4) Civilization became stagnant >> >> Alas, perhaps it is necessary for information to become lost....... > >It's called "progress". > >> [Not even pretending to know the answer to this one] > >Me niether, but I think I have a good idea as to what it is :) > >-- > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > >[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] >[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 21 08:20:05 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040621092005.008ddbf0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I did a LOT of cable stiching when I was in high school. I worked for a company that installed central office equipment for the phone companies. Since I was young, agile, skinny (and not very smart) I got the job of running all the cables on the overhead racks and stiching them down. I'd spent WEEKS up there. I wasn't unusual to install 60 or so 52 pair cables at one time. We used all three types of stiches. I never did build harness on a board but I saw plenty of them being build when I was at Martin Marietta. They used to built them as more or less rigid harnesses but all the newer stuff seems to be nothing more than wires in sleeve with tie wraps at the junctions and ends to hold everything together. They're a far cry from the older stiched harnesses. We used lacing cord when I worked for the phone companies but at MMC they only used lacing tape however I rarely see either one anymore. Joe > >Good to hear there are others who have/do hand lace. Just a few questions >out of curiosity... > >Were these true harnesses or were they cable assemblies. The difference >being that a true harness is completely assembled prior to installation >[usually on a board] where a cabble assembly is the use of lacing (or other >methods) to "dress" simple cables [Simple in the respect that they are >usually point to point [2 connectors] or have few branches]? > >Did you use spot stitch, running stitches, or locking stitches? I can still >do a decent spot or running stitch, but struggle with getting a decent [even >spacing, high tension, low torsion] stitch. > >If these were board build harnsesses were they "rigid"? I remember being >young [a kid actually] and being amazed when a harness [made with 22 or 24 >gauge stranded teflon wire] could be lifed off the board, held vertical >[often well over 6 feet long] from the bottom and completely retain its >shape without any droop in the extended side branches.... > >David > > > From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Jun 21 10:49:57 2004 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Product documentation and schematics Message-ID: Product documentation and schematics First hint "never divulge all of the details in a patent". Actually I know when we applied for patents and provided details of a product we deliberately left out some key nuances and facts so that somebody else could not totally reengineer the product from the details. Much of the process of the internal workings and timings was not detailed. Our product was originally created and manufactured by some astronomical engineers; they/we went out in the field to customer sites and made them work. The system was based on a PDP-11/04 with all of the programming stored in a PROM board. The entire software was one large program, no OS. Original test units had been PDP-11/05's with core memory. Output was on a VT52 with a built in hardcopy printer. There were very accurate drawings and documentation however when it was turned over to the medical manufacturing team the biggest problem was the difference in the experience levels of the personnel and the tweaking required to make each unit "work". There is a big difference between 10-15 prototypes and 100 regular customer units. It's also easy to retrofit, and keep 10-15 units synched up, almost impossible with 100 units. Support is also a problem, initially we had the designers and engineering staff answer any support calls and troubleshoot problems, we later converted to customer support to screen the calls. With 10-15 customers the initial adopters are motivated, usually analytical and willing to work on problems to solve them. Regular customers just want it to work. "Institutional memory gets lost" Mike From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 11:41:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <33518330.1087828847135.JavaMail.root@beaker.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Steve, A good technical post on lacing.. Thanks for coming up with it. Gene, Unfortunately my fathers log books (which included photos of nearly every harness (type) he ever built as well as an 8mm movie showing construction of one over time, were lost/destroyed about 15 years ago [apparently "climate controlled" on a storage unit does not exclude over 2 feet of water on the floor during spring melt.... The typical method was to design the harness (schematically) and then create a blue print [I love the smell of ammonia!] at 1-1 size. This print would then be adfixed to a board (typically plywood). "Nails" would be driven through the blueprint into the board at all corners, angles, junctions, etc. Springs were streteched across the places where wires would terminate. The wirese would then all be placed onto the board according to a wire run list [my main job helping me father was cutting all the wires, stripping them, and tinning the ends while I was under 10 years of age]. Once they were all in place the harness would be laced up using the stitches Steve provided the links to [the locking stich is a slight modification on the double running stitch]. If everything was done right, the harness could be lifted off the board when complete and retain its shape. One of the items that required a "master" was the ability to build a harness on a two dimensional board and get the slack in the wire a certain corners to be such that the final harnes would bend into a three dimensional shape. Damn, wish I still had tose pictures.... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steve Thatcher >>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 10:41 AM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods >>> & headcount... ; -)) >>> >>> here is some info for lacing... >>> >>> http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/codeq/87394-9.pdf >>> >>> it shows some of the stitches, etc at least. It doesn't >>> show a board layout though. >>> >>> best regards, Steve Thatcher >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Gene Buckle >>> Sent: Jun 21, 2004 10:06 AM >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods >>> & headcount... ; -)) >>> >>> > Were these true harnesses or were they cable assemblies. The >>> > difference being that a true harness is completely >>> assembled prior to >>> > installation [usually on a board] where a cabble assembly >>> is the use >>> > of lacing (or other >>> > methods) to "dress" simple cables [Simple in the respect >>> that they are >>> > usually point to point [2 connectors] or have few branches]? >>> > >>> >>> Does anyone have pictures of how these kind of frames were >>> built? I'm going to have to build at least two of them >>> soon for my simulator project. >>> I plan on lacing the wiring harnesses that run down the >>> side consoles since it looks so much nicer than dozens of wire-ties. >>> >>> > Did you use spot stitch, running stitches, or locking >>> stitches? I can >>> > still do a decent spot or running stitch, but struggle >>> with getting a >>> > decent [even spacing, high tension, low torsion] stitch. >>> > >>> Is there a tutorial anywhere that illustrates these various >>> stitches and where/why they are to be used? >>> >>> tnx! >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >>> From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 21 12:03:11 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Gene, Unfortunately my fathers log books (which included photos of nearly > every harness (type) he ever built as well as an 8mm movie showing > construction of one over time, were lost/destroyed about 15 years ago > [apparently "climate controlled" on a storage unit does not exclude over 2 > feet of water on the floor during spring melt.... > Damn. I would've loved to have seen that. > The typical method was to design the harness (schematically) and then create > a blue print [I love the smell of ammonia!] at 1-1 size. This print would > then be adfixed to a board (typically plywood). "Nails" would be driven > through the blueprint into the board at all corners, angles, junctions, etc. I might be able to do something similar by drawing the wiring layout on some kraft paper taped to a plywood base. What kind of spring would be used? I suspect you'd go after one with enough turns to hold all the wire, but at some point you'd end up with a huge "fan" of wires if the spring wire diameter were too great. g. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 11:56:07 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406211704.NAA12024@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Again, I'm thinking in terms of vacuum tubes, and I can't see how >> losing the knowledge of how they worked is going to affect the >> future, or even the present for that matter. > I'm guessing that there is at least one piece of equipment in your > house that relies on a vacuum tube to opperate that is not some sort > of display device. Aside from legacy electronics (I have some pre-transistor-era equipment lying around), for which transistor versions exist, I can't think of any. The only thing I'm not sure of is the microwave oven - does the microwave-generation-thingy depend on vacuum? But I'd also like to point out that the knowledge being putatively lost is not the basics of how vacuum tubes work; that knokwledge is archived in books, and the principles are widely known even now. Rather, it is the practical knowledge that experience brings, the "feel" for how to use them, that is at risk. >> We're so beyond them technologically that they are irrelevant today. > So you don't want television, or radio, or communications satellites, > or radar, or ... Certainly television and radio do not depend on vacuum tubes today (well, certainly not on the receiving end; the technology exists to transmit with transistors, but I don't know whether it can handle the power levels appropriate to mass broadcasting). Radar - as above: the power transmitting stage may still be vacuum tube, but certainly _could_ be transistor; the rest definitely can be. Comm satellites - aren't they solid state these days? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 21 12:10:58 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Product documentation and schematics References: Message-ID: <16599.5794.468517.397453@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Mike" == Mike McFadden writes: Mike> Product documentation and schematics First hint "never divulge Mike> all of the details in a patent". Mike> Actually I know when we applied for patents and provided Mike> details of a product we deliberately left out some key nuances Mike> and facts so that somebody else could not totally reengineer Mike> the product from the details. Much of the process of the Mike> internal workings and timings was not detailed. If a person "skilled in the art" cannot replicate your invention from the patent description, then that patent is invalid. I suspect this is hard to enforce, but (IANAL) that's what I'm told the law says. paul From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 21 12:13:27 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <051c01c457b3$122825c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I also was unable to ever get the bank to tell me exactly how interest > was calculated - I had to juggle possibilities myself until I came up > with one that tracked the bank's numbers exactly. Well, it was sitting on PC's as an open source basic program for years. 'mortgage.bas', IIRC. Personal belief is that all interest rate calculations operate like this, with the banks options only being what to do when a person wants to prepay, and, optional fees at closing. Basically they could fudge the beginning or the end, but not what happens in-between. ...Best choosing a fixed interest rate over a variable one for this. John A. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 12:21:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The fan out can become an issue. The springs were typically light weight and were stretched enough to snuggly hold one wire between each coil. Back then connector densities were not that high, so it was common to see a leg which split into 2-3-4 tails to handle the physical connectors. When larger wuantities were involved, it sometimes bacame necessary to make the wires over-long and then trim (strip and tin) the ends after removing from the board. You could use some craft type paper, or do it on the computer and generate the output to a large format plotter. Not sure where you are based, but here in the US, most Kinko's can print a large format sheet for a somewhat reasonable price. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle >>> Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 1:03 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods >>> & headcount... ; -)) >>> >>> > Gene, Unfortunately my fathers log books (which included >>> photos of >>> > nearly every harness (type) he ever built as well as an 8mm movie >>> > showing construction of one over time, were >>> lost/destroyed about 15 >>> > years ago [apparently "climate controlled" on a storage >>> unit does not >>> > exclude over 2 feet of water on the floor during spring melt.... >>> > >>> Damn. I would've loved to have seen that. >>> >>> > The typical method was to design the harness >>> (schematically) and then >>> > create a blue print [I love the smell of ammonia!] at 1-1 >>> size. This >>> > print would then be adfixed to a board (typically >>> plywood). "Nails" >>> > would be driven through the blueprint into the board at >>> all corners, angles, junctions, etc. >>> >>> I might be able to do something similar by drawing the >>> wiring layout on some kraft paper taped to a plywood base. >>> What kind of spring would be used? I suspect you'd go >>> after one with enough turns to hold all the wire, but at >>> some point you'd end up with a huge "fan" of wires if the >>> spring wire diameter were too great. >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >>> From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 21 12:17:26 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 : Lets see where this one goes... Message-ID: <200406211717.KAA16748@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "David V. Corbin" > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5103745074& >rd=1 > >Pobably the most complete system I have seen being made available.... > > Hi It is also an early system. Most newer systems don't come with the Digital Systems drives. This is one of the rarer DMA type setups with the controller made from TTL. I would love to get a copy of the Digital Systems manual. I'll be watching this one to see who wins it. Maybe they won't mind making a copy of the manual for me. When I got my IMSAI, it had this drive system. I had to figure out the floppy controller by figuring out the PROMs used in the state machine. I wrote my own BIOS for it as well. It was a lot of work. It wasn't until a few years later that I found someone else with one of these controllers and actually got an original BIOS. It was almost identical with mine ( no big surprise ). I still use my IMSAI because it is handy to do my 8080 assembly on ( and more fun ). Dwight From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 21 12:35:13 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > The fan out can become an issue. The springs were typically light weight and > were stretched enough to snuggly hold one wire between each coil. Back then > connector densities were not that high, so it was common to see a leg which > split into 2-3-4 tails to handle the physical connectors. When larger > wuantities were involved, it sometimes bacame necessary to make the wires > over-long and then trim (strip and tin) the ends after removing from the > board. > I have at least one connector with 55 pins, so the fan would become quite a problem, even with 22ga wire. > You could use some craft type paper, or do it on the computer and generate > the output to a large format plotter. Not sure where you are based, but here > in the US, most Kinko's can print a large format sheet for a somewhat > reasonable price. > Kraft paper would be easier and cheaper since I've already got a huge roll of it. g. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 21 12:32:03 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >>> Again, I'm thinking in terms of vacuum tubes, and I can't see how >>> losing the knowledge of how they worked is going to affect the >>> future, or even the present for that matter. >> I'm guessing that there is at least one piece of equipment in your >> house that relies on a vacuum tube to opperate that is not some sort >> of display device. > >Aside from legacy electronics (I have some pre-transistor-era equipment >lying around), for which transistor versions exist, I can't think of >any. The only thing I'm not sure of is the microwave oven - does the >microwave-generation-thingy depend on vacuum? Hi You see, knowledge already lost. Yes, a magnetron has a vacuum in it. It has a filament and a plate ( with cavities in it ). While the principles of these things can be found in books, much of the mechanical and physical methods used to create these things is lost. Partly because of the fact that manufactures don't tell all and partly because no one is dealing with these kinds of things. While it is claimed that the information is in books, there are some feel things that rarely seem to make it into these books. Can anyone tell me what controls the gain of a vacuum tube ( other than someone that actually worked with these )? Can anyone tell me how the grids must be placed for an electrometer preamp tube and why? While we don't need these kinds of things today, the knowledge of what makes these things work is still quite valuable. This understanding can keep us from making mistakes with other related problems. I can't say that these specific things that I've mentioned will be the most important things to remember but these are the types of tidbits that make the difference when looking into new problem areas of the future. Those that understand these things will always be in demand. Those that think they can ignore these kinds of things will wonder why things are beyond understanding. This goes for the entire range of things. You can't understand how to think about things without actually thinking about things. Dwight From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 21 13:02:12 2004 From: vrs at msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > Can anyone tell me what controls the gain of a vacuum > tube ( other than someone that actually worked with these )? Er, I thought it was related to the distance of the grid from the cathode? > Can anyone tell me how the grids must be placed for an electrometer > preamp tube and why? If I knew what an "electrometer" was, I'd be doing better :-). My tube background consists of taking television repair in high school. We used tubes, but we sure didn't make them. Actually, far and away the most common "repair" consisted of plugging them back into the wall :-). > Those that understand these things will always be in demand. > Those that think they can ignore these kinds of things will > wonder why things are beyond understanding. In my experience, most people take it for granted that most things are "beyond understanding". Vince From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 13:07:14 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <200406211812.OAA12552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> The only thing I'm not sure of is the microwave oven - does the >> microwave-generation-thingy depend on vacuum? > You see, knowledge already lost. Because I personally do not know it does not mean it's lost! (I don't know how to extract nickel from ore, either, but has _that_ knowledge been lost? Hardly!) Of course, it doesn't mean it hasn't, either.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Mon Jun 21 05:45:06 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: Message-ID: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> > This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge > is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to > tubes to design electronic circuits? > There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that we could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for high powered devices - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation resistance that goes with valve technology.It would be quite cool to watch a tv picture on an open CRT methinks.But don't walk between the plates. Keep those old Mullard/Thorn/EMI books - GE in the states? Geoff. From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Mon Jun 21 05:58:45 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <00b901c45711$9b8aec50$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <000101c457bc$253c6640$bb72fea9@geoff> > Don't forget that there is more then one generation at work in an industry > at one time. Lots of people on this email list probably work with younger > techs who don't know half of what they do. Once the senior people retire (or > get fired because they cost too much on a spreadsheet) its up to the younger > ones to pull the slack (if they were smart enough to hire any before the old > ones got the boot), and quite a few are not up to the task. It takes time to > notice your workforce is deficient, and by then its too late to do anything > about it. This is what has happened to the rail industry in Britain, it frightens me to think of the skills that have been lost -particularly in track maintenance -not very high tech. you may think , but the number of crashes/accidents we've had since privatisation started on an accountant's spreadsheet. The fact that the industry now swallows more money for an inferior service is common knowledge , we all know where the money goes (went - it's called asset stripping ) but vested interest and political lethargy prevent any radical solution.As with our health service there is now an inverted bloated bureaucratic pyramid stuffed full of accountants and clerks. Geoff. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 13:25:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:41 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <200406211831.OAA12750@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that > we could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for > high powered devices Is the "open-air" vacuum on the Moon a hard enough vacuum for vacuum-tube technology? Does it depend on whether it's day or night (and therefore whether there is solar wind pouring in)? I know that _some_ vacuum-tube technology - notably CRTs - depends on electrons having a mean free path well over the tube size, and that needs a pretty hard vacuum. > - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation resistance > that goes with valve technology. Is it valves that give you rad-hardening, or size? A transistor the size of a valve would, I suspect, be inherently pretty rad-hardened. (Certainly the largest transistors I've seen are far smaller than the smallest valve I've seen. Probably by about an order of magnitude, once you strip each one down to the operating portion.) > It would be quite cool to watch a tv picture on an open CRT methinks. Possibly, though it would mean either suiting up or building the screen into a wall. :-( /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 13:31:38 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <051c01c457b3$122825c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <051c01c457b3$122825c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200406211835.OAA12783@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I also was unable to ever get the bank to tell me exactly how >> interest was calculated - I had to juggle possibilities myself until >> I came up with one that tracked the bank's numbers exactly. > Well, it was sitting on PC's as an open source basic program for > years. 'mortgage.bas', IIRC. Personal belief is that all interest > rate calculations operate like this, with the banks options only > being what to do when a person wants to prepay, and, optional fees at > closing. I couldn't say without knowing what mortgage.bas did. I do suspect, though, that it would be designed for US mortgages and thus at least somewhat inapplicable to mine, which was Canadian. (In case anyone cares: they de-compounded the quoted rate to a daily rate, with different rates in leap and non-leap years, and then charged interest at that daily rate, with payments wherever they fell.) Certainly when I asked on mortgage-ca, nobody seemed to know. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 21 13:37:11 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> <200406211831.OAA12750@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16599.10967.535395.472389@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon >> that we could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum >> there for high powered devices der> Is the "open-air" vacuum on the Moon a hard enough vacuum for der> vacuum-tube technology? Does it depend on whether it's day or der> night (and therefore whether there is solar wind pouring in)? I der> know that _some_ vacuum-tube technology - notably CRTs - depends der> on electrons having a mean free path well over the tube size, der> and that needs a pretty hard vacuum. That's true for all vacuum tubes. If that condition isn't met, you have a "gas filled tube" -- something you occasionally want, but not very often. I think even solar wind is a pretty hard vacuum. >> - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation resistance >> that goes with valve technology. der> Is it valves that give you rad-hardening, or size? A transistor der> the size of a valve would, I suspect, be inherently pretty der> rad-hardened. (Certainly the largest transistors I've seen are der> far smaller than the smallest valve I've seen. Probably by der> about an order of magnitude, once you strip each one down to the der> operating portion.) Take a look at power transistors sometime. Some come in "hockey puck" packages, which describes not just the shape but also the size. And I think a fair fraction of that package is die... paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 13:41:34 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <16599.10967.535395.472389@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> <200406211831.OAA12750@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <16599.10967.535395.472389@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200406211846.OAA12866@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation resistance >>> that goes with valve technology. >> Is it valves that give you rad-hardening, or size? [...]. >> (Certainly the largest transistors I've seen are far smaller than >> the smallest valve I've seen. [...]) > Take a look at power transistors sometime. Some come in "hockey > puck" packages, which describes not just the shape but also the size. > And I think a fair fraction of that package is die... I've never seen any such - but I don't think I've seen any really high-power valves, either. I'd guess that power transistors of that size aren't very vulnerable to radiation, too, which was mostly my point: that (I suspect) much of a valve's rad-hardening is due to sheer size, not the fundamental method of operation. ICBW, of course; wouldn't be the first time. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 21 13:48:31 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) Message-ID: <200406211848.LAA16797@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that >> we could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for >> high powered devices > >Is the "open-air" vacuum on the Moon a hard enough vacuum for >vacuum-tube technology? Does it depend on whether it's day or night >(and therefore whether there is solar wind pouring in)? I know that >_some_ vacuum-tube technology - notably CRTs - depends on electrons >having a mean free path well over the tube size, and that needs a >pretty hard vacuum. Hi Even with all the solar wind, the surface of the moon has a much harder vacuum than any of the tubes we have on Earth. The moon does have a problem for such devices. That problem is dust. It could be blocked with filters but that is another issue. > >> - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation resistance >> that goes with valve technology. > >Is it valves that give you rad-hardening, or size? A transistor the >size of a valve would, I suspect, be inherently pretty rad-hardened. >(Certainly the largest transistors I've seen are far smaller than the >smallest valve I've seen. Probably by about an order of magnitude, >once you strip each one down to the operating portion.) There are still problems. A transistor can avalanche and not recover without removing the power. A tube can recover with the power on, as long as the metal don't ionize. So, it isn't just a size issue, it is a materials issue. > >> It would be quite cool to watch a tv picture on an open CRT methinks. It would take less energy since much is lost by the thickness of the Phosphor. Dwight > >Possibly, though it would mean either suiting up or building the screen >into a wall. :-( > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Mon Jun 21 13:53:53 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: ADM3-A with screen problem on epay (for US, Canada) Message-ID: Neither of my 2 remaining units checked out clean. One currently up for auction has "screen issues": http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5103928107 The other unit would up having the dreaded "CRT mold issue". From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jun 20 23:27:14 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Looking for BA23 rack mount hardware Message-ID: <04062021271405@jfcl.com> Hi, I'm looking for the necessary hardware, including the rails and face plates, to rack mount a pair of BA23s. I've got a bunch of BA23s in floor stands that I'd be happy to swap for it, or I could just pay cash :-) Thanks, Bob Armstrong From bob at jfcl.com Mon Jun 21 00:12:58 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Looking for BA23 rack mount hardware Message-ID: <04062022125783@jfcl.com> Actually, I guess what I really need is one of those 14 slot double high BA23 rack mount chassis that DEC used on big MicroVAX systems. It probably wasn't called a BA23, but it was effectively two BA23s stacked up, with two power supplies, a double backplane and room for four 5 1/4" drives. Just in case somebody happens to have one lying around that they don't want :-) Bob From emmanuel at emmanuel.net Mon Jun 21 08:01:22 2004 From: emmanuel at emmanuel.net (Emmanuel Gadaix) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: 5100 Message-ID: <1536782528.20040621200122@emmanuel.net> You wrote in January: " Wonderful, thanks much for the information!!! Due to financial concerns, I am selling my IBM 5100 (sigh) on Ebay. Most of the tapes were DC300A, and the extra ones I have are the DC600s. I am in the process of duplicating the tapes, 1) so I can keep a set of the Patch and Games tapes in case I can ever afford another one :), and 2) to make sure the tapes are readable. Thanks again! " Did you sell it? I'm looking for such a unit. Thanks Emmanuel From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Jun 21 09:59:12 2004 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: cardiac humor In-Reply-To: <002101c45682$06d2c4f0$2201a8c0@finans> References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> <002101c45682$06d2c4f0$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: Back in the 70's, the hp2000 that I used which was run by the local high school district had a habit of hanging during classes and demonstrations. One tool used on this system was a cardiac simulator (ya...running a computer simulator on a real computer....), but when this hp hung up during the demonstration of the cardiac simulator, everyone called it..... a cardiac arrest. -Bob > > I found a Cardiac. I >> still don't know where I got it, but needless to say, >> it made my day. > >Obviously it didnt arrest you :-) > >Nico >(Sorry if it should had been speeld some other way) > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07-06-2004 -- bbrown@harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From waisun.chia at hp.com Mon Jun 21 12:51:59 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: vt420 conversion to 240vac In-Reply-To: <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <40D7203F.1040506@hp.com> Hello list, How difficult is it to convert a 115/120VAC VT420 terminal to a 230/240VAC? 1. internal switch (here's hoping)? 2. a couple of jumpers? 3. need to replace AC input module? 4. need to replace power supply? 5. no hope in hell? Thanks. /wai-sun From waisun.chia at hp.com Mon Jun 21 13:04:41 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: FPF-11/M8188 cable In-Reply-To: <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <40D72339.9070105@hp.com> Hello list, Just acquired a FPF-11, need to confirm cable layout for the FPF-11/M8188 to the KDF11 processor: The cable from what I've gathered is a straight cable from a 40-pin BERG to a 40-pin DIL connector. Does this mean that: BERG 1/A -> DIL 1 BERG 2/B -> DIL 2 : : BERG 39/UU -> DIL 39 BERG 40/VV -> DIL 40 Thanks. /wai-sun From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 21 14:12:02 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ;-)) In-Reply-To: <051c01c457b3$122825c0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040621151202.009cf100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:13 PM 6/21/04 -0400, you wrote: > >> I also was unable to ever get the bank to tell me exactly how interest >> was calculated - I had to juggle possibilities myself until I came up >> with one that tracked the bank's numbers exactly. > >Well, it was sitting on PC's as an open source basic program for years. >'mortgage.bas', IIRC. Personal belief is that all interest rate >calculations >operate like this, with the banks options only being what to do when a >person wants to prepay, and, optional fees at closing. Basically they >could fudge the beginning or the end, but not what happens in-between. >...Best choosing a fixed interest rate over a variable one for this. > >John A. BASIC's Mortgage is an interesting little program but it doesn't take into account some the things that banks do. For example is the year calculated as 360 or 365 days per year? Banks do one way when they calculate interest on your savings account but the other when they calculate interst due themselves. Is the interst due at the beginning or end of each interest period? Etc etc. I'm not even sure how accuarate Mortgage is even with the right input. A lot of mortgage caclulators weren't very accurate. One of the ones that IS accurate is the HP-12C. Another is the HP-41 with the Finance ROM. Or if you can find one, get the PPC ROM for the HP-41. It has a great financial package in it and it's manual has a VERY good description of the different inputs and how they affect the calculations. Joe From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 21 14:34:56 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: I need a DEC PDP-11 pink/purple panel Message-ID: <003d01c457c6$d5d39190$99100f14@mcothran1> Does anyone have a pink/purple "DIGITAL PDP-11" panel that goes on top a the 6ft racks? I need one. Ashley From tponsford at theriver.com Sun Jun 20 17:08:25 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Looking for BA23 rack mount hardware In-Reply-To: <04062022125783@jfcl.com> References: <04062022125783@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <40D60AD9.8090205@theriver.com> I got one!. It's yours for nuttin!. But you gotta come to Az. to pick it up as I don't want to ship it, if at all possible. Cheers Tom Bob Armstrong wrote: > Actually, I guess what I really need is one of those 14 slot double > high BA23 rack mount chassis that DEC used on big MicroVAX systems. > It probably wasn't called a BA23, but it was effectively two BA23s > stacked up, with two power supplies, a double backplane and room for > four 5 1/4" drives. > > Just in case somebody happens to have one lying around that they > don't want :-) > > Bob > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 21 14:30:41 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: vt420 conversion to 240vac References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <40D7203F.1040506@hp.com> Message-ID: <16599.14177.4649.874052@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: Wai-Sun> Hello list, How difficult is it to convert a 115/120VAC Wai-Sun> VT420 terminal to a 230/240VAC? Wai-Sun> 1. internal switch (here's hoping)? 2. a couple of jumpers? Wai-Sun> 3. need to replace AC input module? 4. need to replace Wai-Sun> power supply? 5. no hope in hell? I don't know. I would assume it's either an *external* switch, or it already works. Check the label. It should say what the expected power is. If it says 90-265 volts, that would mean it's a universal supply, just as in most other modern electronics -- just plug it in. paul From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 21 14:32:40 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods &headcount... ; -)) References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game><200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20040621151202.009cf100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <05cf01c457c6$849ded20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > One of the ones that IS accurate is the HP-12C. > Another is the HP-41 with the Finance ROM... How about the 12C versus the 17B, if I may ask? John A. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 14:45:11 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: OT : Tektronix 475A Scope... In-Reply-To: <006401c4560d$80ad4860$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: Sometimes you just get lucky. My 475A lives!!!!!!!! Although I am somewhat embarassed to admit it, the scope had been sitting in a storage area for quite a while before I needed it a few weeks ago. I plugged it in, smoke and smell! Pulled the plug (and cursed fervently). Since I got the links [see below] from Antonio, I opened up the scope expecting the worst. The "good" news is that a combination of cathair and dust appeared to have made a nice little arc near the power-supply. Since I pulled the plug quickly, and the "fire" did not catch, there is no apparent damage to the scope, a good cleaning and all is well. The main reason I post this is as a friendly reminder to check the internals before powering up a piece of equipment that has been in storage. Although the scope is fine, my project is two weeks behind schedule [and I am taking daily late delivery fees!]. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Antonio Carlini >>> Sent: Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:56 AM >>> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> Subject: RE: OT : Tektronix 475A Scope... >>> >>> > A great site for old test equipment is >>> > . If the US >>> Military had >>> > it as a standard piece of equipment they will have the manuals >>> > on-line. >>> > Both TM 11-6625-2735-14-1 and TM 11-6625-2735-24P-1 are >>> on line and >>> > cover the Tek 475. Good luck gathering the smoke... >>> >>> They also seem to have Tek 2645 stuff online, but, unless >>> I'm doing something wrong, it wants a login. >>> >>> Antonio >>> >>> -- >>> >>> --------------- >>> Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org >>> >>> From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 21 14:48:13 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: I need a DEC PDP-11 pink/purple panel References: <003d01c457c6$d5d39190$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <005a01c457c8$b0c717d0$99100f14@mcothran1> I'm also looking for an RK11 controller for RK05 disk drives in a unibus machine. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 3:34 PM Subject: I need a DEC PDP-11 pink/purple panel Does anyone have a pink/purple "DIGITAL PDP-11" panel that goes on top a the 6ft racks? I need one. Ashley From Pres at macro-inc.com Mon Jun 21 14:44:13 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: I need a DEC PDP-11 pink/purple panel In-Reply-To: <003d01c457c6$d5d39190$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040621154042.031ed110@192.168.0.1> At 03:34 PM 6/21/2004, you wrote: >Does anyone have a pink/purple "DIGITAL PDP-11" panel >that goes on top a the 6ft racks? I need one. Yes, I have one on the top of my 6ft rack. Also a more modern version on the 48" H9642 cabinet. We make um heap good trade? :-) Ed West Columbia, SC From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Mon Jun 21 14:05:12 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG><1087820351.9051.13.camel@weka.localdomain><00d301c4578f$12c337a0$0500fea9@game> <1087824778.9051.42.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <006b01c457c8$c87c94e0$bb72fea9@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" > Well for the most part they got it right - the Bent Pyramid at Dahshur > is the most notable exception. Very impressive engineering though. > cheers > Jules Don't forget the ruined pyramid at Meidum - built too steep ( perhaps the aliens were on "SMASH" ) and the other "stepped" pyramids.The pyramids of the 5th dynasty were very poor , with rough quarried stone not squared ; whilst those of the middle kingdom were built by the equivalent of our modern "cowboy" builders - Amenemhat III 's at Dahsur ( not your bent one ) was made of mud brick and has mostly crumbled - perhaps they held an early "big brother" programme there. There again, perhaps they used pee cees. Whoever the aliens were they should be ashamed - 42 !!!???? Geoff. From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 21 15:12:32 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >>This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge >>is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to >>tubes to design electronic circuits? >> >> >> >There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that we >could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for high >powered devices - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation >resistance that goes with valve technology.It would be quite cool to watch a >tv picture on an open CRT methinks.But don't walk between the plates. >Keep those old Mullard/Thorn/EMI books - GE in the states? > > I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the open tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, or had large spaces between the tubes. The glass does more than just hold the vacuum, it is also an insulator. From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 21 15:12:57 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) Message-ID: <200406212012.NAA16850@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Kevin Handy" > >Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > >>>This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge >>>is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to >>>tubes to design electronic circuits? >>> >>> >>> >>There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that we >>could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for high >>powered devices - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation >>resistance that goes with valve technology.It would be quite cool to watch a >>tv picture on an open CRT methinks.But don't walk between the plates. >>Keep those old Mullard/Thorn/EMI books - GE in the states? >> >> >I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the >open tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, >or had large spaces between the tubes. > >The glass does more than just hold the vacuum, it is also an >insulator. > > Hi Just some wire mesh that is charged can make a shield. You just have to herd these pesky little electrons. Dwight From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 21 15:15:01 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA Message-ID: I've got a 3com EtherLink III MCA card available if anyone wants it. It failed to sell on ebay, so just cover postage costs (plus paypal fees if you pay me that way) and its yours. Anyone want it? If you want to view it, see below: the ad lists as $3.85 for shipping via Priority Mail. That is my prefered method to ship things like this, because I get free boxes. If you want some other method or are out of the USA and can't use that method, I'm open to changing it. If I don't get a taker, its heading to the trash... so hopefully someone will want it. (I no longer have any MCA bus hardware, so it is useless to me) -chris From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 21 15:28:12 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT References: <0406210239.AA23609@ivan.Harhan.ORG><1087820351.9051.13.camel@weka.localdomain><00d301c4578f$12c337a0$0500fea9@game><1087824778.9051.42.camel@weka.localdomain> <006b01c457c8$c87c94e0$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <065e01c457ce$46e7eaa0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Just a mention that when it was looking like DEC was gone from the flea markets, This month there was a VT-180 Robin, which I snared, and a Rainbow w/Harddrive and upright stand, which I left ffor the next lucky customer. Also a lot of interesting Mac and Sun, some Atari game machines. Great overall. OT: PC/Pentium400's are at the $10 point now, which I take as a greenlight to toss some of the more boring (yes,PC's) of the like or just less so that I've saved. The next MIT flea is the day after the VCFe, so I may lose out on a few deals to some other lucky collector that month. John A. ----- Original Message ----- From: Geoffrey Thomas To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" > Well for the most part they got it right - the Bent Pyramid at Dahshur > is the most notable exception. Very impressive engineering though. > cheers > Jules Don't forget the ruined pyramid at Meidum - built too steep ( perhaps the aliens were on "SMASH" ) and the other "stepped" pyramids.The pyramids of the 5th dynasty were very poor , with rough quarried stone not squared ; whilst those of the middle kingdom were built by the equivalent of our modern "cowboy" builders - Amenemhat III 's at Dahsur ( not your bent one ) was made of mud brick and has mostly crumbled - perhaps they held an early "big brother" programme there. There again, perhaps they used pee cees. Whoever the aliens were they should be ashamed - 42 !!!???? Geoff. From allain at panix.com Mon Jun 21 15:29:44 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT Message-ID: <067301c457ce$7f81a9a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Just a mention that when it was looking like DEC was gone from the flea markets, This month there was a VT-180 Robin, which I snared, and a Rainbow w/Harddrive and upright stand, which I left ffor the next lucky customer. Also a lot of interesting Mac and Sun, some Atari game machines. Great overall. OT: PC/Pentium400's are at the $10 point now, which I take as a greenlight to toss some of the more boring (yes,PC's) of the like or just less so that I've saved. The next MIT flea is the day after the VCFe, so I may lose out on a few deals to some other lucky collector that month. John A. /edit From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 21 15:46:16 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods &headcount... ;-)) In-Reply-To: <05cf01c457c6$849ded20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <009601c45681$e85f0dd0$0500fea9@game> <200406200722.DAA26967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20040621151202.009cf100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040621164616.008ad300@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I don't really know about the 17B but being an HP product I expect it to be good. I never cared for the non-RPN calculators so I never really used the 17B. Joe At 03:32 PM 6/21/04 -0400, you wrote: > >> One of the ones that IS accurate is the HP-12C. >> Another is the HP-41 with the Finance ROM... > >How about the 12C versus the 17B, if I may ask? > >John A. > > > From paulpenn at knology.net Mon Jun 21 15:46:52 2004 From: paulpenn at knology.net (Paul Pennington) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: 21+ Years of DDJ Indexed References: Message-ID: <003b01c457d1$1e1524a0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Sellam said: > Whilst doing an unrelated search, I came across this gem: > > Twenty-One + Years of Dr. Dobb's Journal Indexed > http://www.cstone.net/~bachs/ddj/ That's nice, but he missed all the "good stuff" between 1976 and 1982. The magazine website (www.ddj.com) doesn't seem to cover this period either :-( Paul Pennington Augusta, Georgia From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 14 19:46:31 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Classics near Winchester, Hampshire, UK ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087260390.26297.220.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:43, Witchy wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247& > > item=5102129686&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW > > Hehe, I've just been having a look at that after someone else sent me the > link - 23 BBCs? FIFTY Acorn 3000s? I know I like hoarding stuff but that > just takes the biscuit AND the packet the biscuit came in AND the tin :) > Particularly since the 'winner' will have to drive to North Wales to get > everything. Ha - I was trying to find a home for an A3000 a few weeks ago. No local interest and the only person wanting one was in north Wales. Somehow I don't think they'll be wanting 30 of the things... cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Mon Jun 21 16:23:16 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <200406212012.NAA16850@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406212012.NAA16850@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40D751C4.9050007@srv.net> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >>From: "Kevin Handy" >> >>Geoffrey Thomas wrote: >> >> >> >>>>This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge >>>>is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to >>>>tubes to design electronic circuits? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that we >>>could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for high >>>powered devices - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation >>>resistance that goes with valve technology.It would be quite cool to watch a >>>tv picture on an open CRT methinks.But don't walk between the plates. >>>Keep those old Mullard/Thorn/EMI books - GE in the states? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the >>open tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, >>or had large spaces between the tubes. >> >>The glass does more than just hold the vacuum, it is also an >>insulator. >> >> >> >> > > >Hi > Just some wire mesh that is charged can make a shield. >You just have to herd these pesky little electrons. >Dwight > > > But that would cause a current draw, requiring a larger power requirement. You'd need to haul more batteries/solor panels/etc up to the moon. From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:13:09 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Were these true harnesses or were they cable assemblies. They were laced in place. > Did you use spot stitch, running stitches, or locking stitches? I can still > do a decent spot or running stitch, but struggle with getting a decent [even > spacing, high tension, low torsion] stitch. Frankly, I don't remember. It was quite a few years ago. In any case, what I did sucked compared with this guy I met in San Jose (at the MFS Worldcom site) - his stuff was as close to perfect as you can get. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:16:42 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Does anyone have pictures of how these kind of frames were built? It would not suprise me if you can order a copy of the military standard pertaining to lacing. It will tell all. There are also a few older Air Corps technical orders dealing with lacing and harnesses (and all of the odd connectors nobody uses anymore) floating around. > Is there a tutorial anywhere that illustrates these various stitches and > where/why they are to be used? The easiest (but somewhat simple) reference I know to get a hold of is an old ARRL handbook. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:18:40 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040621084331.008dc720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: > (how many college students today can > program in machine langauage or even Fortran?) How many will ever need to? William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 21 16:32:03 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621173004.03b0add0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: > > Does anyone have pictures of how these kind of frames were built? > >[snip] >The easiest (but somewhat simple) reference I know to get a hold of is an >old ARRL handbook. I picked up a box'o'books from an auction from a ham who went "silent key" and the box had several handbooks, the 2nd oldest was a 1973. The oldest was a 1949, IIRC. How old is "old" that you're talking about. I may have one that 'fits the bill'... Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 16:32:59 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040621143015.R20194@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > > (how many college students today can > > program in machine langauage or even Fortran?) > > How many will ever need to? Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then you can not write a good compiler. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Jun 21 15:50:01 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT Message-ID: <040621165001.a990@splab.cas.neu.edu> Yes, I saw the two DEC machines and almost bought them, but then I came to my senses. I have too much stuff now, and after tuesday night, I'll have a whole bunch more vaxen. Joe HEck From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:40:22 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: > You see, knowledge already lost. Yes, a magnetron has a vacuum in it. > It has a filament and a plate ( with cavities in it ). While the > principles of these things can be found in books, much of the > mechanical and physical methods used to create these things is lost. Please, people, please. Stop using the vacuum tube as an example of "lost technology". It is a faulty example, at best. We know "most" of the knowledge about vacuum tubes. We have most of the *original* technical libraries from Eimac and RCA, and parts of many other companies. We have the Proceedings of the IRE and other technical journals. We have the research done by Tyne, who did it all while many of the original tube guys (and tubes) were still around. We now have a professional organization that does serious reseach on the history of tubes. More stuff comes up every week. Basically, we know a hell of a lot. For example, at the AWA TCA (Tube Collectors Association) meeting a couple of years ago, we were all given a twenty-odd photocopy of all of the Standardization Notices from RCA on how to make an type 45 triode. That means ever last detail, down to what cement to use to glue the base to the bulb. I can think of NO glaring holes in our knowledge of tubes. The holes that do come to mind are really relatively minor - details like how many 6N6Gs Sylvania made during the fourth quarter of 1938, and did Triad ever try to make Loctal tubes. > While it is claimed that the information is in books, there > are some feel things that rarely seem to make it into these > books. Yes, there is, and this is a problem. In reality, it tends to be a tiny percentage of a given field's knowledge base. We should, however, strive to fill these "feel thing" holes, as they are important. > Can anyone tell me what controls the gain of a vacuum > tube ( other than someone that actually worked with these )? > Can anyone tell me how the grids must be placed for an electrometer > preamp tube and why? I think everyone on this list could find this information quite easily. The knowledge is not lost. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:42:31 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: > > > There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that we > could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for high > powered devices - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation > resistance that goes with valve technology. While the vacuum in space is pretty good, space itself is too dirty. Microscopic space junk, basically. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:44:42 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040621173004.03b0add0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > I picked up a box'o'books from an auction from a ham who went "silent key" > and the box had several handbooks, the 2nd oldest was a 1973. The oldest > was a 1949, IIRC. How old is "old" that you're talking about. I may have > one that 'fits the bill'... I would think anything pre-1970 would do. 1949 would certainly have it. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 16:46:00 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040621143015.R20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > then you can not write a good compiler. Yes, but writing compilers is a specialty. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 17:09:33 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> > > > > (how many college students today can > > > > program in machine langauage or even Fortran?) > > >How many will ever need to? > > Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > > if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > > then you can not write a good compiler. On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, but writing compilers is a specialty. Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else that directly addresses hardware. Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then you can not write a good operating system, or any other system software. Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then you can not write a good game, or anything else that needs to be efficient. Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then you can not do a good job of optimizing ANYTHING. Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then you can not do a GOOD job of programming anything. Clancy and Harvey said, "Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will again." Neither of them has ever written a commercial product, nor anything that I would consider to be a "real" program, only stuff to teach an abstract concept of Computer Science. I do not think that it is appropriate to teach recursion, without teaching how the stack works! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 21 17:20:55 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: cardiac humor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Bob Brown wrote: > Back in the 70's, the hp2000 that I used which was run by the local > high school district had a habit of hanging during classes and > demonstrations. One tool used on this system was a cardiac simulator > (ya...running a computer simulator on a real computer....), but when > this hp hung up during the demonstration of the cardiac simulator, > everyone called it..... > > > a cardiac arrest. Ba-dum tsssssssss! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From jpl15 at panix.com Mon Jun 21 17:46:12 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Kevin Handy wrote: > Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > >>This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge > >>is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to > >>tubes to design electronic circuits? > > > I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the > open tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, > or had large spaces between the tubes. > > The glass does more than just hold the vacuum, it is also an > insulator. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ^^^^^^^^^^ > sigh.... I ain't gonna get into a rant about modern electronics / science "education" nowadays... but could perhaps I offer a small logical trail, in response to the above assertion? If your tubes, envelopless, are already in an ambient vacuum - interplanetary space, the surface of the moon, etc - pray tell me what there is to 'insulate' against? What precisely, would be the mechanism of the 'cross-talk'? Now, granted, any electromagnetic, or even mechanical, disturbances could still be propagated between these envelopless tubes, but this holds true whether or not the glass is there. To pick nits, there would be added element structure suppport issues, as many tubes use the inside of the envelope to support the micas, or other parts, but that is a mechanical design problem, and does not bear on the actual operational characteristics of the said envelopeless, designed-to-operate-in-an-ambient-vacuum thermionic emission active device. I have participated in the design of more than one 'tube', which we built on the base of a bell-jar, then pumped down to check the operation, then re-admitted atmosphere to make adjustments - as in fact most tube design work is done (at the physical prototype level). Nothing changes electronically, physically there are plate heat radiation differences, some exposed element effects... but I can tell you that a quad of 6L6GCs, having had their glass envelopes carefully removed, operate as per spec when relocated to a bell jar (and thus in a vacuum of calibratable 'hardness' , hint hint hint...) Okay, my contribution to off-topicness is done now. Cheers John From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 18:03:04 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> Message-ID: <200406212312.TAA14331@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the open >> tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, or had large >> spaces between the tubes. >> The glass does more than just hold the vacuum, it is also an >> insulator. > If your tubes, envelopless, are already in an ambient vacuum - > interplanetary space, the surface of the moon, etc - pray tell me > what there is to 'insulate' against? > What precisely, would be the mechanism of the 'cross-talk'? As for plausible mechanisms that glass will stop but vacuum won't, I offer the possibility that electrons from one cathode miss that valve's plate and strike another one's. I suspect the degree to which this happens depends on the geometry of the electrodes and how one valve is mounted relative to another. > [...] I can tell you that a quad of 6L6GCs, having had their glass > envelopes carefully removed, operate as per spec when relocated to a > bell jar That is a very interesting experimental result. Thank you. You don't describe enough details for me to more than take guesses at the geometry of their mounting, and I don't know the geometry of their electrodes. I would guess that they are basically cylindrical with solid plates and you mounted them as parallel cylinders with coplanar ends, in which case electrons that miss one plate are unlikely to go very near another. I suspect that if you (a) mounted them such that this is not true (say, two of them forming a T shape) and (b) specifically looked for effects produced by current from one valve's cathode to another's plate, your results would have been different. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 17:53:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040621084331.008dc720@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 21, 4 08:43:31 am Message-ID: > > Whoa! Hold it! Let's get out of the extreme cases. We're not talking > about specialized knowledge such as how to build a vacuum tube that only Incidentally, I bought a book last year which describes some experiments in home-made valves (vacuum tubes). Yes, they're pretty poor devices, but I applaud the author for actually having a go (using filaments taken from light bulbs, and pumping the thing down with a rotarty pump he repaired himself). At least he's trying which is more than most people do. > specialists knew even in the heyday of the vacuum tubes. We're taling about > evveryday practicle things such as how to remove the cylider head of an First did that about 25 years ago. > engine and replace a valve or how to use something as simple as a single > transistor. Sure we've lost the knowledge of how the Egyptians moved blocks > to built the pyramids but it hardly matters. What worries me is that fact > that I see almost no one growing up today that can repair ANYTHING other > than plug-n-play much less design anything. It's the same case in simple I think what bothers me (and it sounds much like what you're saying) is not that people can't design with ECC83s/12AX7s any more, but that they can't design -- period. They just don't know how to think. They're not interested in finding out how things work, how to repair them, how to improve them, and so on. 'PC modding' (I beleive that's the term) depresses me. Modifying a computer used to mean a lot more than installing random flashing lights on the cooling fan! How many people do you know who have a reasonable multimeter (not just something suitable for testing batteries)? An oscilloscope? An engineer's lathe? And how many people do you know who spend their spare time working with such things for fun. > mechanics, electronics, programming (how many college students today can > program in machine langauage or even Fortran?) and probably every other > technical field. Hopw many can program in _any_ language (I include things like spreadsheet macros here) and can also justify the algorithms that they use? There have been discussions over here about teaching maths in schools, in that with the common use of calculators it's not necessary for students to understand things like long multiplications (the fact that's _exactly_ how every calculator I've ever examined does multiplication is another matter, but anyway). To some extent that's true, but then you should teach the correct use of calculators. Why some statements that are mathemetically correct are not suitable for machine calculation. The problem with itterations that converge far too slowly, or are unstable. Things like that. Problem is, that's _not_ what's taught. Actually, I am not convinced anything worthwhile is taught in schools any more :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 18:04:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... In-Reply-To: <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> from "Kevin Handy" at Jun 21, 4 02:12:32 pm Message-ID: > > > I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the > open tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, > or had large spaces between the tubes. There are plenty of multi-section valves around, with several electrode systems in the same envelope. Double triodes are really common, so are multiple diodes + a triode (like the EABC80 or UABC80 triple diode + triode (used in AM/FM radio sets for the AM detector, FM discriminator and 1st audio amplifier). And triode pentodes (either signal pentodes or output pentodes). In general the only coupling between the secions is due to stray capacitance. > > The glass does more than just hold the vacuum, it is also an > insulator. Actually, it's not uncommon for it to be coated with a conduction film for electrical screening purposes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 17:38:28 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Product documentation and schematics In-Reply-To: from "McFadden, Mike" at Jun 21, 4 10:49:57 am Message-ID: > > Product documentation and schematics > First hint "never divulge all of the details in a patent". Thankfully nobody told HP that in the early 70's. The patents for the 98x0 series read like service manuals with schematics and ROM source listings (the one of the 9830 is something like 900 pages long). The info doesn't quite apply to production machines, but it's a heck of a lot better than nothing! > > Actually I know when we applied for patents and provided details of a > product we deliberately left out some key nuances and facts so that > somebody else could not totally reengineer the product from the details. As I understnad patent law (and IANAL), if somebody 'competent in the field' can't recreate the invention from the patent, then the patent is invalid. Of course this would probably involve a long and expensive court case, but anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 21 17:42:37 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406211704.NAA12024@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 21, 4 12:56:07 pm Message-ID: > Aside from legacy electronics (I have some pre-transistor-era equipment > lying around), for which transistor versions exist, I can't think of > any. The only thing I'm not sure of is the microwave oven - does the > microwave-generation-thingy depend on vacuum? We said knowledge was being lost, now I am sure of it. Yes, the microwave generator in a microwave oven is a cavity magnetron, which is a type of vacuum tube. It's close to a directly heated diode with a strange shaped anode block (incorporating the resonant cavities) and a magnetic field along the axis of the device. > Certainly television and radio do not depend on vacuum tubes today > (well, certainly not on the receiving end; the technology exists to > transmit with transistors, but I don't know whether it can handle the > power levels appropriate to mass broadcasting). I am almost sure the trnasmitter output stages are still valve-based, at least on larger transmitters. > > Radar - as above: the power transmitting stage may still be vacuum > tube, but certainly _could_ be transistor; the rest definitely can be. I wouldn't want to bet on that. I certainly wouldn't want to try to design a microwave oscillator using semiconductors of sufficient power for a large radar system. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 18:36:03 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:42 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040621163452.C20194@newshell.lmi.net> I left one out Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, if you do not have an understanding of machine language, then is it possible to do a good job of designing hardware? From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 18:47:24 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <040621165001.a990@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <040621165001.a990@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <40D7738C.9000204@ntlworld.com> trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > Yes, I saw the two DEC machines and almost bought them, but then I came > to my senses. I have too much stuff now, and after tuesday night, I'll have > a whole bunch more vaxen. > > Joe HEck > Vaxen are always good, what are you getting ? Dan From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 21 18:54:05 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406211812.OAA12552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> <200406211812.OAA12552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <40D7751D.8050709@ntlworld.com> > > Because I personally do not know it does not mean it's lost! (I don't > know how to extract nickel from ore, either, but has _that_ knowledge > been lost? Hardly!) Of course, it doesn't mean it hasn't, either.... > Exactly just because you "know" how to do something doesn't mean you can do it. I know how to make a statue or a nice dining room table but I lack the finer skill to actually do it. That's where the skills are being lost, these things take practise. Dan From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 19:01:35 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: Message-ID: <004a01c457ec$158bac30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > > (how many college students today can > > program in machine langauage or even Fortran?) > > How many will ever need to? If you're a college student studying computer science and have never programmed in machine/assembler, turn in your degree, it wasn't worth it. Same goes for non comp sci students, but instead of machine/assembler... any computer programming language at all. Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 19:03:59 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: Message-ID: <006201c457ec$6b522360$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Yes, but writing compilers is a specialty. I disagree... for comp sci majors. If you don't understand lexical and syntax analysis, code generation and optimization, and the necessary data structures (this is the most important part), for your whole career in computer science you are walking on sand. Jay West From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 21 19:08:01 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <065e01c457ce$46e7eaa0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, John Allain wrote: > The next MIT flea is the day after the VCFe, so I may lose out on a few > deals to some other lucky collector that month. Oh really? You mean on Sunday? What time does it start? With any luck I'll be able to attend just to get a taste of the east coast electronics flea market flavor. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 21 19:10:35 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: 21+ Years of DDJ Indexed In-Reply-To: <003b01c457d1$1e1524a0$6401a8c0@knology.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Paul Pennington wrote: > Sellam said: > > > Whilst doing an unrelated search, I came across this gem: > > > > Twenty-One + Years of Dr. Dobb's Journal Indexed > > http://www.cstone.net/~bachs/ddj/ > > That's nice, but he missed all the "good stuff" between 1976 and 1982. > The magazine website (www.ddj.com) doesn't seem to cover this period either > :-( As the author of the index explained to me in private e-mail, he started doing the index commercially in 1988, and as he wanted to get paid to do it, he decided to start in January 1982 since he needed to get something going right away and Jan/82 is around the start of the IBM PC, so it would be commercially relevant as well. At any rate, I've proposed that we turn this into an open source type project and are discussing it now. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 21 19:19:01 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <200406220019.RAA16968@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Jay West" > >> Yes, but writing compilers is a specialty. >I disagree... for comp sci majors. If you don't understand lexical and >syntax analysis, code generation and optimization, and the necessary data >structures (this is the most important part), for your whole career in >computer science you are walking on sand. > >Jay West > > Hi I think the most important part of someone going into software writing is learning how to deal with making mistakes. The rest, a person will eventually learn. Dealing with making mistakes takes a different kind of person. They either learn to deal with it or find a chicken farm someplace in Iowa. Dwight From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 18:57:17 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <40D7751D.8050709@ntlworld.com> References: <200406211732.KAA16757@clulw009.amd.com> <200406211812.OAA12552@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D7751D.8050709@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <200406220022.UAA14830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Because I personally do not know it does not mean it's lost! (I >> don't know how to extract nickel from ore, either, but has _that_ >> knowledge been lost? Hardly!) > Exactly just because you "know" how to do something doesn't mean you > can do it. I know how to make a statue or a nice dining room table > but I lack the finer skill to actually do it. Then I'd argue that you don't actually know how; you just know enough that you could learn how with practice. (Or practise, in your case. :) > That's where the skills are being lost, these things take practise. The skills that are being lost are the ones that cannot be taught but instead must be learned, by doing, and doing, and doing. Those skills it is no great catastrophe to lose, because each person must relearn them anyway, "lost" or not. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 19:35:10 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> How many people do you know who have a reasonable >>> multimeter (not just something suitable for testing >>> batteries)? An oscilloscope? An engineer's lathe? I have both digital and analog multi-meters. They each serve their own purposes well. One of the digitals has an RS-232 log output [10 readings / sec but not good on very variable items (sampling/slew rate issues). I also have a Tek 475a scope [thankefully back in service], not the greatest, but it get me by since I rarely do any high speed hardware away from a client's site and then have access to their tools / test equipment. No lathe however........ >>> And how >>> many people do you know who spend their spare time working >>> with such things for fun. FUN? This is supposed to be FUN???? I thought it was just an outward manifestation of some deep seated psychological problem . At least that is what my Wife keeps telling me. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Mon Jun 21 19:37:26 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406220022.UAA14830@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: >>> >>> The skills that are being lost are the ones that cannot be >>> taught but instead must be learned, by doing, and doing, >>> and doing. Those skills it is no great catastrophe to >>> lose, because each person must relearn them anyway, "lost" or not. Except for the fact that it is much easier and effective to learn from a master than from a text. This is why all of the "craftsmen" had apprenticeship programs. Who you studied under often had more bearing on your acceptance into the trade than your actual skill once you completed your apprenticeship. From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 21 19:43:33 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't go, but can someone watch for old PDP-11 stuff for me (if you don't want it for yourself)? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Vintage Computer Festival Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC at MIT On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, John Allain wrote: > The next MIT flea is the day after the VCFe, so I may lose out on a few > deals to some other lucky collector that month. Oh really? You mean on Sunday? What time does it start? With any luck I'll be able to attend just to get a taste of the east coast electronics flea market flavor. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at ttp://marketplace.vintage.org ] From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 21 19:38:01 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Looking for BA23 rack mount hardware In-Reply-To: <04062021271405@jfcl.com> References: <04062021271405@jfcl.com> Message-ID: <40D77F69.6030207@mdrconsult.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: > Hi, > > I'm looking for the necessary hardware, including the rails and face > > plates, to rack mount a pair of BA23s. I've got a bunch of BA23s in > floor stands that I'd be happy to swap for it, or I could just pay > cash :-) Ooohhh, I've got a bunch of BA23 rack hardware that would really like some deskside skins! :) Take it off-list? Doc From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Jun 21 19:54:45 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT Message-ID: <040621205445.a86b@splab.cas.neu.edu> I am picking up the stuff that was posted about two or three weeks ago, as vaxen in boston. It is several small vaxes, some with unix, some monitors, lots of manuals. won't know exactly what there is until I pick it up. Joe Heck From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Jun 21 20:01:04 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT Message-ID: <040621210104.a86b@splab.cas.neu.edu> The MIT flea market is always the third Sunday of the month. It starts in April and ends in October. The first and last are the best. It is quite a mix of stuff. Vendors line up starting at 7:00 A.M. and the gates open at 9:00 A.M. Buyers are $5 ($1 off with copy of ad/flyer) There is a talk-in on ham radio. Sponsored by the Harvard Wireless Club, the MIT electronics research society, the MIT uhf repeater association and the MIT radio society. If I go (I usually do) and somebody from out of town is staying somewhat near the path I take to go to the flea, I might be able to offer a ride. Joe Heck From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 20:47:15 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else > that directly addresses hardware. I ask then - how much code today is being written in machine language? One percent? A tenth of a percent? C may be a pain in the neck, but it is used in all sorts of places* where machine language was king. In any case, if we are talking about less than a percent, I think that would be a "specialty". *yes, I know about code that has to be very efficient. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From vcf at siconic.com Mon Jun 21 20:51:25 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <040621210104.a86b@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu wrote: > The MIT flea market is always the third Sunday of the month. It starts in > April and ends in October. The first and last are the best. It is quite > a mix of stuff. Vendors line up starting at 7:00 A.M. and the gates open > at 9:00 A.M. Buyers are $5 ($1 off with copy of ad/flyer) There is a > talk-in on ham radio. Sponsored by the Harvard Wireless Club, the MIT > electronics research society, the MIT uhf repeater association and the > MIT radio society. > > If I go (I usually do) and somebody from out of town is staying somewhat > near the path I take to go to the flea, I might be able to offer a ride. Well, I'll try to make it. I haven't set my return flight yet but I'm sure it'll be later in the day. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 21:04:00 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040621185805.H20194@newshell.lmi.net> > > Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > > if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > > then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else > > that directly addresses hardware. > I ask then - how much code today is being written in machine language? One > percent? A tenth of a percent? C may be a pain in the neck, but it is used > in all sorts of places* where machine language was king. > In any case, if we are talking about less than a percent, I think that > would be a "specialty". > *yes, I know about code that has to be very efficient. You are entirely correct that very little code is written by those with an understanding of machine language. I think that that is part of what is wrong with so much of the MICROS~1 code. I suspect that you have some understanding of it. When my C students take an Assembly Language course, there is often a visible improvement in their C code. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 21 21:19:28 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: <20040621185805.H20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > You are entirely correct that very little code is written by > those with an understanding of machine language. I think that > that is part of what is wrong with so much of the MICROS~1 code. It is not just Microsoft. Most software these days is bloated. Yes, I think it is extreme, and I really have to wonder just what these programmers are doing with all of that code. The truth of the matter is that they are not being paid to write compact, efficient code. They are being paid to write nice looking programs in a short amount of time, with the knowledge that the hardware resources will just get bigger and better, week after week. Nice looking programs make money, not code efficient ones. Programs that ship on time (or nearly) make money, not ones still "in the lab" being optimized like crazy. This is what the industry wants, so this is what the schools teach. > When my C students take an Assembly Language course, > there is often a visible improvement in their C code. Probably - in fact I would hope so. I am not against learning assembly. It would be great if all CS and CE kids did, however I can see it falling from grace simply due to "almost-obsolecence". On a side note, about your students - it could be simply because they are just more experienced. My C improved greatly after taking a Graphics class. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From kenziem at sympatico.ca Mon Jun 21 21:27:37 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406212227.37836.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 21 June 2004 21:47, William Donzelli wrote: > > Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > > if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > > then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else > > that directly addresses hardware. > > I ask then - how much code today is being written in machine language? > One percent? A tenth of a percent? C may be a pain in the neck, but it > is used in all sorts of places* where machine language was king. I picked up a copy of Machine Language for the Commodore 64 and other Commodore computers by Jim Butterfield this weekend. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA15kZLPrIaE/xBZARArhdAJ9YAVItcEZ8lSjqjlW2zGrYQqj5vQCdF8Yx gm22iqk75/rxQNAqtQeB9WM= =XtNr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 21:33:46 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: DEC racks available Message-ID: <009801c45801$58516f40$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> *sigh* ok.... another deal comes to me, and I will pass it on to the list. Here is the info I have... ---- begin quote ----- I have two six-foot high DEC equipment racks. They contain some obsolete custom electronics and power supplies. The racks are in good condition and located in Benton, Pennsylvania. ---- end quote ----- If anyone is interested, contact me off list. Jay West From tomhudson at execpc.com Mon Jun 21 21:42:49 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" In-Reply-To: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40D79CA9.6020903@execpc.com> Way to go, Grumpy Fred! I was reminiscing about my old Atari days after that note came up about the Atari machine at the yard sale and did some web searches last night to see what I could find regarding the work I did. The real hoot was an article someone had written about some of my code (written back around 1983) and how they were perplexed because I wrote a multiply-by-40 routine in assembly rather than use a lookup table. I laughed because they obviously didn't understand the situation. We were writing full-blown arcade-style games for machines with 16K of memory, including the video RAM. We were squeezing code into the display's vertical blanking interval, where a couple of clock cycles made the difference between a good game and one with screen glitches. I remember one program where I, honest to god, had to optimize the code because I was something like 7 bytes too big, and had to go through the code and figure out whether I could move some data to the 6502's "page zero" RAM or use some other technique to shave off the extra bytes! Another huge project I did on the Atari 8-bit machine required my own home-made overlay mamager. God, was that fun. Nowadays, memory limits mean nothing to most people, and I have to admit that I haven't written any assembly code for a while, but 3D Studio MAX, the pinnacle of my programming career, mostly written in C++, has selected bits and pieces I wrote in assembly because there's still a part of me that believes in squeezing every bit of speed out of a processor in certain circumstances. There are times I really miss the old days and the incredibly fun programming challenges that we solved in assembly language. It is too bad that most people don't know how to use it any more -- Have you ever looked at some of the code these C++ compilers spit out? (Shudder) -Tom Fred Cisin wrote: >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else >that directly addresses hardware. > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not write a good operating system, or any >other system software. > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not write a good game, or anything else that >needs to be efficient. > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not do a good job of optimizing ANYTHING. > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not do a GOOD job of programming anything. > > >Clancy and Harvey said, >"Nobody programs in assembly language any more, nor ever will again." >Neither of them has ever written a commercial product, >nor anything that I would consider to be a "real" program, >only stuff to teach an abstract concept of Computer Science. > >I do not think that it is appropriate to teach recursion, >without teaching how the stack works! > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred > > > > > > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 21:53:41 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" References: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> <40D79CA9.6020903@execpc.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c45804$203f2860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> It was written... > I remember one program where I, honest to god, had to optimize the code > because I was something like 7 bytes too big, and had to go through the > code and figure out whether I could move some data to the 6502's "page > zero" RAM or use some other technique to shave off the extra bytes! Remember... in the ART of assembler programming.... shaving off the size of the code is only 49% of the art. The 51% of the ART is shaving off cpu cycles necessary to run it by careful choice of instructions and algorithms and data structures :) Jay West From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 22:01:09 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: HP racks (and VCF east) Message-ID: <00d201c45805$2b287910$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> 4 people wanted me to bring racks to VCF east. I am running into problems with trailer max load, car pulling max load, etc. Looks like at the least I am going to have to disassemble two or all of the racks. ICK!! Does anyone know the empty weight of an HP 2860B rack (this is the older style with a greenish/grey color scheme), and an HP 29431G rack (the generation after that that is more cream colored with rounded edges)?? I have the manuals for both racks, neither one says the weight. Any help appreciated :\ Jay West From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 21 21:58:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" In-Reply-To: <00cc01c45804$203f2860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> <40D79CA9.6020903@execpc.com> <00cc01c45804$203f2860$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <200406220323.XAA15797@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I remember one program where I, honest to god, had to optimize the >> code because I was something like 7 bytes too big, [...] > Remember... in the ART of assembler programming.... shaving off the > size of the code is only 49% of the art. The 51% of the ART is > shaving off cpu cycles necessary to run it by careful choice of > instructions and algorithms and data structures :) This reminds me of when I looked at the Tempest ROM images. That's a full game in only 24K of ROM - and something like 4K of RAM. I was very impressed. There's something like half the ROM code that I still don't really understand.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Jun 21 22:33:26 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: IMSAI 8080 : Lets see where this one goes... References: Message-ID: <40D7A886.2040705@tiac.net> Rumor has it a nice Imsai system will be sitting on a vendor table at VCF East. David V. Corbin wrote: >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=5103745074& >rd=1 > >Pobably the most complete system I have seen being made available.... > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 22:46:14 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, William Donzelli wrote: > It is not just Microsoft. Most software these days is bloated. Yes, I > think it is extreme, and I really have to wonder just what these > programmers are doing with all of that code. The truth of the matter is > that they are not being paid to write compact, efficient code. They are > being paid to write nice looking programs in a short amount of time, with > the knowledge that the hardware resources will just get bigger and better, > week after week. Nice looking programs make money, not code efficient > ones. Programs that ship on time (or nearly) make money, not ones still > "in the lab" being optimized like crazy. That's right But a GOOD programmer writes code that needs less optimization than a poor programmer who writes code that needs significant later optimization. > This is what the industry wants, so this is what the schools teach. We do, indeed, get higher enrollment in C++ than in Assembly Language. > > When my C students take an Assembly Language course, > > there is often a visible improvement in their C code. > Probably - in fact I would hope so. I am not against learning assembly. It > would be great if all CS and CE kids did, however I can see it falling > from grace simply due to "almost-obsolecence". Well, the administrators are certainly not big fans of it. "Why teach programming - you can BUY any program that you need." > On a side note, about your students - it could be simply because they are > just more experienced. My C improved greatly after taking a Graphics > class. No question that simple experience is a major factor. A couple of times, I've had a C class one semester, and then they took various other courses the next semester, and then came back to me for the Data Structures And Algorithms course. Those who had taken Assembly Language seemed to have the most improvement, followed by other programming languages, including C++ and Java, with the least improvement from those who did not have a programming class, such as either no CS classes, or applications or networking classes. But I never had a sufficient sample size, nor adequate objective measures to be able to draw significant conclusions. ... and the choices of topics to specialize in in each course could easily have as much influence as what the course was. This fall, I get to teach Assembly Language again! (after 2 years) They've scheduled it for Saturday morning, which sucks, but it's still worth it. I need to make some decisions about some of the content. Should I include discussion of the .Net IL assembler? How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) How much time should I spend on interrupt handlers, v file handling? How much time should I spend on coupling assembly language subroutines with high level languages? How much on using assembly language knowledge to debug high level language problems? Should I get into writing assembly language stuff that runs as real Windoze applications, or stick to DOS based stuff? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bob at jfcl.com Mon Jun 21 22:53:31 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Naive 9 track/Pertec/Kennedy 9610/TS11 question Message-ID: <000601c4580c$7f0fa4c0$bb02010a@LIFEBOOK> Hi, I've got a Kennedy 9610 9-track drive that does 800, 1600, 3200 and 6250 BPI (yep, all of 'em!) at either 25 or 100ips. The drive has what looks to my inexperienced eye to be a standard Pertec style interface (two 50 pin cables). Can I connect this to a TS11 (M7982) or TSV05 (M7196) and expect it to work? At all the densities? Or am I going to need a smarter controller? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 22:53:59 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: looking for Jarel Hambenne Message-ID: <6cf701c4580c$8d0f79b0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Anyone have good contact information for him? Thanks :\ Jay West From evan947 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 21 22:58:05 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) Message-ID: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> The MIT Swapfest, also known as "Flea@MIT" is a great event. I lived in Boston for four years, until last month when I moved, but I went to the swapfest many times and always found interesting things. There is a small-ish outdoors area and a huge indoors area. There are even people selling snacks (usually doughnuts and barbeque food, coffee and Coke) by one of the entrances. LOL, just don't do what I did the first time, and think the small outdoors part was the whole thing! From ken at seefried.com Mon Jun 21 23:02:40 2004 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <200406220210.i5M2A5hk060577@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406220210.i5M2A5hk060577@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040622040240.8030.qmail@mail.seefried.com> I'm a big proponent of teaching my students assembly, though not machine language, but the following was simply silly... From: Fred Cisin >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else >that directly addresses hardware. True. But what percentage of programmers write drivers (clue: it's small). >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not write a good operating system, or any >other system software. True. But what percentage of programmers write operating systems (clue: it's small). >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not write a good game, or anything else that >needs to be efficient. Completely not true. Modern games (as in most anything past the 8-bit era) are written predominately if not exclusively in higher level languages (C, C++ or C#) and rely much more on content (story, textures, skins, etc.) than anything that has to be written in machine language for success. And the engines driving these games haven't been written in machine (or assembly) in a long, long time. Modern games use DirectX or OpenGL and are written in high level languages. Even Carmack doesn't program in machine language in modern history, and he's the demi-god of game optimization. You can download the source to many older games if you don't agree. I don't even need to go into things like Cg and how far they absract writing good games from machine language. >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not do a good job of optimizing ANYTHING. Total rubbish. There are lot's of kinds of "optimizing", not all of which mean "doing it the way that Fred thinks it should be done" or "doing it in the absolute fewest instructions". If you are going to use words like "ANYTHING" (esp. with the caps), you need to include optimizing for a vast array of criteria. Is machine language the only way to optimize for user interface? Probably not, except for extremely narrow definitions of optimized. Is machine language the way to optimize for dynamic logic (like different tax laws from one year to the next)? Probably not. Is machine language the way to optimize for realistic, modern deadline or budget? Almost certainly not. >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >then you can not do a GOOD job of programming anything. Total rubbish. I can't build an engine from scratch, therefore I can't excel at driving a car? I can't build a spin cast reel, therefore I can't fish. The folks who program Quicken have to know machine language to do a GOOD job at writing tax software? Rubbish. The folks at Adobe have to know machine language to do a GOOD job of rendering Acrobat pages? Rubbish. The Gnome, KDE, QT, etc., folks haven't done a GOOD job, for all values of GOOD, because they use high level languages. Rubbish. You can do anything in machine language. Can you do nothing well without it? Rubbish...Obviously you can. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 21 22:04:26 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: List charter mods & headcount... ;-) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:28:08 +1000 . <73C91AFE-C37E-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <20040622041355.PBKW24133.imf25aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message <73C91AFE-C37E-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au>, Huw D avies writes: >I don't have my subscribe confirmation e-mail but the earliest e-mail I >have in my >Classiccmp archive is dated 11 July 1997 when the list was hosted at >Washington U. (I have some e-mails from earlier dates (like 5 January >1980) but I suspect this is something to do with broken mailers). I >guess I've been here a while :-) Ok, all these made me look. My first confirmation is dated April 16, 1997. I've unsubscribed and resubscribed with different addresses since then but have stayed subscribed continuously. Given my posting rate, I'm wondering if I qualify for the highest read to write ratio... Brian L. Stuart From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 21 23:32:55 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040622040240.8030.qmail@mail.seefried.com> References: <200406220210.i5M2A5hk060577@huey.classiccmp.org> <20040622040240.8030.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: <20040621211420.T20194@newshell.lmi.net> Before you call it "RUBBISH". READ IT, and understand what was said. You seem to have ignored the first line of each and every paragraph. You consistently misquoted me as saying that everything had to be written in assembly language. I did NOT say that ANY of those items had to be written in assembly language. I said that doing them well required an "understanding of assembly language". Surely you can understand the difference. And, in response to your STRAWMAN argument, NO, you can NOT "excel in driving" without an understanding of how a car works. You can get by as an adequate driver, but you will NEVER "excel" if you don't understand the engine. [Yes, I CAN build an engine from scratch. But I have always built them from existing auto parts. I have extensive professional automotive experience.] I will concede a total lack of experience with MODERN games. In the "vast array of criteria", which kinds of optimization do you think are not helped by an understanding of machine language? What do you think "optimization" means? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Ken Seefried wrote: > I'm a big proponent of teaching my students assembly, though not machine > language, but the following was simply silly... > > From: Fred Cisin > > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > >then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else > >that directly addresses hardware. > > True. But what percentage of programmers write drivers (clue: it's small). > > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > >then you can not write a good operating system, or any > >other system software. > > True. But what percentage of programmers write operating systems (clue: > it's small). > > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > >then you can not write a good game, or anything else that > >needs to be efficient. > > Completely not true. > > Modern games (as in most anything past the 8-bit era) are written > predominately if not exclusively in higher level languages (C, C++ or C#) > and rely much more on content (story, textures, skins, etc.) than anything > that has to be written in machine language for success. And the engines > driving these games haven't been written in machine (or assembly) in a long, > long time. Modern games use DirectX or OpenGL and are written in high level > languages. > > Even Carmack doesn't program in machine language in modern history, and he's > the demi-god of game optimization. > > You can download the source to many older games if you don't agree. > > I don't even need to go into things like Cg and how far they absract writing > good games from machine language. > > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > >then you can not do a good job of optimizing ANYTHING. > > Total rubbish. > > There are lot's of kinds of "optimizing", not all of which mean "doing it > the way that Fred thinks it should be done" or "doing it in the absolute > fewest instructions". If you are going to use words like "ANYTHING" (esp. > with the caps), you need to include optimizing for a vast array of criteria. > > Is machine language the only way to optimize for user interface? Probably > not, except for extremely narrow definitions of optimized. > > Is machine language the way to optimize for dynamic logic (like different > tax laws from one year to the next)? Probably not. > > Is machine language the way to optimize for realistic, modern deadline or > budget? Almost certainly not. > > >Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, > >if you do not have an understanding of machine language, > >then you can not do a GOOD job of programming anything. > > Total rubbish. > > I can't build an engine from scratch, therefore I can't excel at driving a > car? > > I can't build a spin cast reel, therefore I can't fish. > > The folks who program Quicken have to know machine language to do a GOOD job > at writing tax software? Rubbish. > > The folks at Adobe have to know machine language to do a GOOD job of > rendering Acrobat pages? Rubbish. > > The Gnome, KDE, QT, etc., folks haven't done a GOOD job, for all values of > GOOD, because they use high level languages. Rubbish. > > You can do anything in machine language. Can you do nothing well without > it? Rubbish...Obviously you can. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Jun 21 22:46:58 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Unexpected Find In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:50:45 -0700 . <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <20040622045628.ICQN3020.imf22aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net>, Ron Hudson wri tes: >Do you have the book too? > >I have been writing a cardiac emulator, but I need the book >that went with the cardiac... (or a photocopy or scan) Yes, I do have the book. I'll take it to work tomorrow and scan it in. Hopefully, I can send you a copy of the scans in the next few days. If you don't hear from me in a while, prod me. Brian L. Stuart From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jun 22 00:10:24 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Naive 9 track/Pertec/Kennedy 9610/TS11 question In-Reply-To: <000601c4580c$7f0fa4c0$bb02010a@LIFEBOOK> References: <000601c4580c$7f0fa4c0$bb02010a@LIFEBOOK> Message-ID: <200406212210.24784.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I have a "smart" Emulex / Pertec class controller for PDP-11 in my "archives" (as I recollect). Let's chat offline to see if it matches your needs. Lyle On Monday 21 June 2004 20:53, Robert Armstrong wrote: > Hi, > > I've got a Kennedy 9610 9-track drive that does 800, 1600, 3200 and > 6250 BPI (yep, all of 'em!) at either 25 or 100ips. The drive has what > looks to my inexperienced eye to be a standard Pertec style interface > (two 50 pin cables). Can I connect this to a TS11 (M7982) or TSV05 > (M7196) and expect it to work? At all the densities? Or am I going to > need a smarter controller? > > Thanks, > Bob Armstrong -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Jun 22 00:07:26 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" References: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> <40D79CA9.6020903@execpc.com> Message-ID: <00b301c45817$f884a070$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Tom Hudson" > I remember one program where I, honest to god, had to optimize the code > because I was something like 7 bytes too big, and had to go through the > code and figure out whether I could move some data to the 6502's "page > zero" RAM or use some other technique to shave off the extra bytes! > Another huge project I did on the Atari 8-bit machine required my own > home-made overlay mamager. God, was that fun. I recognize the situation. Back in my Philips (one ell, not two) days, I was working on a 32K (8 bit) mini system for local authorities. Everything was devided in 2K/8bit pages. The program was so big, that (1) in order to get a 10-20 byte routine, I had to split up a procedure in two parts (A and B) , where B could then be called from a procedure C. The reason to call B from C, was that I otherwise would not have room to end C with a RETURN instruction. Disgusting, but it teaches you about effective (in the sens of compact) programming. Another project in the system, had been "undersold" by the representative. He tought 32K was more then sufficient for RJE, 4-5 tellers, and 1x 3270 simulation. It wasnt. It ran efficiently on 64K, but the customer didnt want to buy 32 more K. The seller didnt want to admit loose of face, so what we did, was to implement a disk overlay routine on 8" SSSD floppies. God, it stank ! The traffic on the floppy was so intense, that we had to replace the floppy at least once a week. Totally worn out. However, the seller was happy, as he got his provision from a 32K sale Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.701 / Virus Database: 458 - Release Date: 07-06-2004 From spc at conman.org Tue Jun 22 00:53:09 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040621211420.T20194@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 21, 2004 09:32:55 PM Message-ID: <20040622055309.7E29210B2C8C@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > And, in response to your STRAWMAN argument, > NO, you can NOT "excel in driving" without > an understanding of how a car works. > You can get by as an adequate driver, > but you will NEVER "excel" if you don't understand the engine. > [Yes, I CAN build an engine from scratch. But I have always > built them from existing auto parts. I have extensive > professional automotive experience.] I would expect that an expert driver would need to have an understanding of how the engine relates to the rest of the car, in addition to understanding how the transmission and breaks relate. Yes, understanding how the car works overall helps, but the ability to rebuild an engine? I have to be sold on that one ... > I will concede a total lack of experience with MODERN games. In 1992 when Doom came out, it only had two (2) routines hand coded in assembler---the rest was in C. > In the "vast array of criteria", which kinds of optimization > do you think are not helped by an understanding of machine language? Algorithmic optimizations, which is where you now get the most benefit. An extreme example would be replacing a bubble sort with quick sort (for a sufficient amount of items to be sorted). I remember several years ago working on a project (in C) that wasn't as fast as the previous implementation (also in C). Instead of reaching for assembly (which I could have done) I instead profiled the program---finding out which parts of the program where the actual hot spots instead of my guessing where the hot spots were. I basically converted seven small routines into macros (inline the code, instead of having a function call overhead) and easily doubled the speed, bringing it into line with the previous implementation (which had fewer features by the way). Was I helped with my knowledge of assembly? Possibly in writing the intial code. With the optimization (for speed)? I don't think so. Do I regret learning assembly? Not at all, I think it made me a better programmer, but that's me. I think the reason assembly isn't taught anymore is that industry (or academia) don't see it worth the time and effort to. Right now, the most expensive component in programming is the programmer, and anything to make the programmer more productive is seen as a good thing, and the one thing that makes a programmer productive is working with higher and higher level languages. Another example. A project (play project really) I worked on I started with Perl (one to learn the language). Text munging language and it took perhaps eight hours total to get it to the point I like it. But its sluggish on my development system (166MHz AMD 486). I then spent perhaps twice the time (16 hours, maybe 20) rewriting it in C (because I can). Vast improvement in speed---two, three orders of magnitude but part of that comes from over a decade of experience in C, and two, over a decade of experience in Unix systems programming, and using a trick or two (like mapping a file directly into memory instead of reading each line, for one thing). But ... my programming expertise isn't exactly cheap and in a company setting, unless there were extenuating circumstances, the Perl version would be fast enough on modern hardware (where on modern hardware, it's the hardware itself that gives the two, three orders of magnitude). And the money paid me to write it in C can instead be put towards faster hardware. I would contend that it's cheaper to buy the faster hardware than to keep me on staff (or rather, it's more cost effective to have me doing other things than translating Perl into C). And now a days, who can afford to have a C programmer on staff? A friend of mine works at Sportsline (2nd only to ESPN for sports related news on the web). They have a Perl program to generate stats from the web server logs and to process a single day it takes nearly 22 hours. Sure, they could hire a programmer to rewrite their log processor in C and (depending upon the programmer and the complexity of the processing) reduce the runtime of the program. But then they have to keep someone around that knows C (or C++ or ... ) and that's an expense they probably don't want to incure. Perl programmers are cheaper, as is hardware. > What do you think "optimization" means? Trade-offs. Right now, the optimization being done is developer time and expertise. Faster with less skilled programmers. Or in other words: Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two. -spc ("Premature optimzation is the root of all evil." ---Donald Knuth) From spc at conman.org Tue Jun 22 01:05:02 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics In-Reply-To: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 21, 2004 08:46:14 PM Message-ID: <20040622060502.7E84710B2C8C@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > I need to make some decisions about some of the content. > Should I include discussion of the .Net IL assembler? > How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) > How much time should I spend on interrupt handlers, v > file handling? > How much time should I spend on coupling assembly language > subroutines with high level languages? > How much on using assembly language knowledge to debug > high level language problems? > Should I get into writing assembly language stuff that > runs as real Windoze applications, or stick to DOS based stuff? How much time do you have? From my experience (not in teaching, but in sitting in several Assembly classes from college) that not many students "get" it. Perhaps part of that is due to the insturctor (in my case, spending almost a month covering DEBUG along with simple 8088 instructions) and perhaps part of that is the strangeness of the language (compared to higher level languages). Several of your suggestions could be lumped into a single heading: calling other APIs. File handling? Calling Windows APIs? Similar stuff really, just sticking the data in the appropriate place, and transfering control to the appropriate routine (CALL, INT, SYSCALL, etc). On making a real Windows application, most of the code will be: push 0 push SOMECRYPTICVALUE lea eax,[ebp + localvar] push eax lea eax,[ebx + structoffset] push eax push SOMEVALUE push YETANOTHERVALUE push ebx mov eax,[ebp + localvar] mov eax,[eax + structoffset] push eax call _Win32DoSomeThingMystic Just to make a single API call. DOS would be eaiser to program, but really, how much modern DOS development is being done nowadays? Interrupt handling is interesting, but again, how much time do you have? -spc (I might suggest writing code for a virtual VAX ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 01:39:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics In-Reply-To: <20040622060502.7E84710B2C8C@swift.conman.org> References: <20040622060502.7E84710B2C8C@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <20040621232223.A20194@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > How much time do you have? not much! - 18 three hour lectures > From my experience (not in teaching, but in > sitting in several Assembly classes from college) that not many students > "get" it. Perhaps part of that is due to the insturctor (in my case, > spending almost a month covering DEBUG along with simple 8088 instructions) > and perhaps part of that is the strangeness of the language (compared to > higher level languages). Use of the tools is a necessary step, but can easily overwhelm the rest of the content. > Just to make a single API call. DOS would be eaiser to program, but > really, how much modern DOS development is being done nowadays? You've hit on a fundamental issue to resolve - how much should it be on creating real programs, and how much on mastering the concepts and principles. But doing Windoze API calls would tie up most of the course before they even get their own names on the screen. > Interrupt > handling is interesting, but again, how much time do you have? Since we no longer have a course that covers the structure and principles of the OS, file handling is primarily teaching the basic principles of using an API, and what is involved with dealing with an OS. Interrupt handling goes a bit deeper in internal architecture, and how the OS and BIOS communicate with the hardware. > -spc (I might suggest writing code for a virtual VAX ... ) THAT would be fun. But, back to the real world v theoretical, almost all of the students want to start off with stuff that is directly runnable on PC hardware. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 02:01:41 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040622055309.7E29210B2C8C@swift.conman.org> References: <20040622055309.7E29210B2C8C@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <20040621233939.Y20194@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > I would expect that an expert driver would need to have an understanding > of how the engine relates to the rest of the car, in addition to > understanding how the transmission and breaks relate. That is exactly my point in this strained analogy! > Yes, understanding > how the car works overall helps, but the ability to rebuild an engine? I > have to be sold on that one ... I wouldn't try to sell you on that. A basic understanding is essential, but a high level of skill and experience doesn't necessarily give much further benefit. > In 1992 when Doom came out, it only had two (2) routines hand coded in > assembler---the rest was in C. How good would it have been without them? Would modern (fast) hardware be adequate instead? > Algorithmic optimizations, which is where you now get the most benefit. > An extreme example would be replacing a bubble sort with quick sort (for a > sufficient amount of items to be sorted). I remember several years ago > working on a project (in C) that wasn't as fast as the previous > implementation (also in C). Instead of reaching for assembly (which I could > have done) I instead profiled the program---finding out which parts of the > program where the actual hot spots instead of my guessing where the hot > spots were. I basically converted seven small routines into macros (inline > the code, instead of having a function call overhead) and easily doubled the > speed, bringing it into line with the previous implementation (which had > fewer features by the way). I maintain that your basic understanding of machine language is largely responsible for your understanding of what would help. Leastwise, the easiest way that I know of to show students the performance benefit of macros is to show them what is involved in function call overhead - in other words, understanding some aspects of of the machine language that the compiler produces. > regret learning assembly? Not at all, I think it made me a better > programmer, but that's me. Well, that is my main point, even if some of my statements are arguable. My basic premise is that even without doing any assembly language coding, an understanding of machine language improves the quality of programming in higher level languages. > I think the reason assembly isn't taught anymore is that industry (or > academia) don't see it worth the time and effort to. Right now, the most > expensive component in programming is the programmer, and anything to make > the programmer more productive is seen as a good thing, and the one thing > that makes a programmer productive is working with higher and higher level > languages. Yeah. I don't like to face the fact that Microsoft's switchover 15 years ago to "throw hardware at it" is actually the way things are going to be from now on. > I would contend that it's cheaper to buy the faster hardware than to keep > me on staff (or rather, it's more cost effective to have me doing other Yeah. hardware is now cheaper than skill > > What do you think "optimization" means? > Trade-offs. Right now, the optimization being done is developer time and > expertise. Faster with less skilled programmers. Or in other words: > Good. Fast. Cheap. Pick two. I still like to teach optimizing for speed, size, or simplicity/ source code readability > -spc ("Premature optimzation is the root of all evil." > ---Donald Knuth) Good quote. I have to spend some time teaching students to optimize for readability and simplicity, and to not try to make it fast until it works. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 22 02:07:54 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: FPF-11/M8188 cable In-Reply-To: Wai-Sun Chia "FPF-11/M8188 cable" (Jun 22, 2:04) References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <40D72339.9070105@hp.com> Message-ID: <10406220807.ZM20122@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 22, 2:04, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Hello list, > Just acquired a FPF-11, need to confirm cable layout for the > FPF-11/M8188 to the KDF11 processor: > > The cable from what I've gathered is a straight cable from a 40-pin BERG > to a 40-pin DIL connector. > > Does this mean that: > > BERG 1/A -> DIL 1 > BERG 2/B -> DIL 2 > : : > BERG 39/UU -> DIL 39 > BERG 40/VV -> DIL 40 http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-October/028697.html -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Jun 22 03:13:39 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <116CB9EC-C424-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 22 Jun 2004, at 08:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > There have been discussions over here about teaching maths in schools, > in that with the common use of calculators it's not necessary for > students to understand things like long multiplications (the fact > that's > _exactly_ how every calculator I've ever examined does multiplication > is > another matter, but anyway). To some extent that's true, but then you > should teach the correct use of calculators. Why some statements that > are > mathemetically correct are not suitable for machine calculation. The > problem with itterations that converge far too slowly, or are unstable. > Things like that. Well I can think of one programmable calculator that I used in the early 1970s that did multiplication/division etc using logarithms. This had the neat side effect of giving 2x2=3.99999999 rather than the expected result (unless of course, you knew how it worked in which case the result was expected). ISTR that it used nixie tubes for output and that this thing cost heaps of money (like $10K in the days when the Aussie dollar was worth more than the US one!). Programming was achieved using a single punched card with pre-punched chads removed using some fancy tool (in my case a paper clip). The card was read by placing it in the card reader (duh!) which had lots of pins and contacts, where the holes were lead to completing a circuit so you basically had a card programmed ROM. I keep wanting to write that this calculator was a Wang, but I'm not really sure (it's been a while). I'm wondering whether the Physics Department still has it - I should ask. > Problem is, that's _not_ what's taught. Actually, I am not convinced > anything worthwhile is taught in schools any more :-( I don't know enough to comment, only that the results are generally disappointing. Perhaps I was atypical for my generation, but I read heaps of things when I was young (apart from lots of fiction, there were useful things like "Look and Learn") as we didn't have much TV and no computers to waste time with. Of course, I'm redressing this in my later years :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Jun 22 03:16:55 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <200406212312.TAA14331@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <000001c457bc$245a91c0$bb72fea9@geoff> <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> <200406212312.TAA14331@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <86005B68-C424-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 22 Jun 2004, at 09:03, der Mouse wrote: > As for plausible mechanisms that glass will stop but vacuum won't, I > offer the possibility that electrons from one cathode miss that valve's > plate and strike another one's. > > I suspect the degree to which this happens depends on the geometry of > the electrodes and how one valve is mounted relative to another. This issue must have been addressed in double-triodes and double-pentodes that I remember reading about. Does anyone know how "cross talk" was avoided in these valves (aka tubes). I'm off to dinner at my parents and I'll ask Dad about it given that he did lots of work in this area just after the war - enough to be offered a senior position at Ferranti but turned it down to stay in academia. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From bert at brothom.nl Tue Jun 22 04:21:52 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics(was References: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40D7FA30.ED84E261@brothom.nl> Fred Cisin wrote: > > This fall, I get to teach Assembly Language again! (after 2 years) > They've scheduled it for Saturday morning, which sucks, > but it's still worth it. > > I need to make some decisions about some of the content. > Should I include discussion of the .Net IL assembler? I'm not sure. I hate proprietary microsoft stuff, therefore my guess whould be no. > How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) That should be covered in another class: computer architecture. I think it would suffice if you only discussed intel, since that allows students to experiment with what they learned. Assembly languages are all so much related that if you learned one, you easily learn any other. At least that is my experience. > How much time should I spend on interrupt handlers, v Interrupt handling is very important, but you can't do that in ring 3 on Windows. I feel you should discuss interrupt handling and point out stuff like interrupt nesting and what to do if there's no space available on the stack at the time the interrupt occurs. > file handling? I have no idea what that has to do with assembly programming, but that might be my ignorance. > How much time should I spend on coupling assembly language > subroutines with high level languages? *Very* important: - passing parameters by C calling convention and Pascal calling convention - linking stuff, different output sections and stuff like that > How much on using assembly language knowledge to debug > high level language problems? Also *very* important, perhaps even more important than the previous one as most people will probably never write assembly programs, but almost anyone debugging C programs gains a lot knowing how to debug C programs on assembly level. > Should I get into writing assembly language stuff that > runs as real Windoze applications, or stick to DOS based stuff? Other stuff, that also might belong to the computer architecture class: - paging, virtual memory - supervisor mode vs user mode (ring 0 vs ring 3) Okay, what are the options: * DOS - obsolete in the viewpoint of many (not mine) - 16 bit - no possibility to demonstrate "advanced" concepts as supervisor mode vs user mode and paging + allows demonstration of interrupt handling * Windows - Perhaps doable if you discuss device driver writing (might not be a bad idea at all) * Linux - I'm not sure at what level these student are, but they might also use Linux at home as lots of students do these days - Allows easy device driver writing - Free tools available, no royalties included (as opposed to MS stuff, but you might be able to work out a deal) But being a student at the VU in Amsterdam I might suggest using Minix, as that is primarly intended for teaching. It is mostly written in C, but (of course) portions are in assembly and those are IMHO the hardest parts to understand (task context switching for example). Is there practical work included in this course? I think that is *very* important, as I think it's very hard to memorize all the details if you've "worked" on it. Someone wise said something like "Tell it, and it will be memorized for a month; Show it, and it will be memorized for a year; Experience it and it will be memorized for a lifetime." Regards, Bert From stanb at dial.pipex.com Mon Jun 21 15:28:01 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:43 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 21 Jun 2004 14:12:32 MDT." <40D74130.4080007@srv.net> Message-ID: <200406212028.VAA11099@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Kevin Handy said: > Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > >>This is more of what I'm getting at. Does it matter that some knowledge > >>is lost as generations go on? Are we ever going to need to go back to > >>tubes to design electronic circuits? > >> > >> > >> > >There was an idea some time back that if we ever get to the moon that we > >could be using "open-air" valves (tubes) in the vacuum there for high > >powered devices - with the benefit that goes with the better radiation > >resistance that goes with valve technology.It would be quite cool to watch a > >tv picture on an open CRT methinks.But don't walk between the plates. > >Keep those old Mullard/Thorn/EMI books - GE in the states? > > > > > I think you would have problems with cross-talk between the > open tubes, unless you limited your design to a single tube, > or had large spaces between the tubes. Not a problem, there are many tubes/valves with multiple electrode assemblies, up to 4 tubes in one envelope in the 1930s. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 21 23:22:11 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: ello! =)) Message-ID: Looking forward for a response :P password: 67705 From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Jun 22 05:07:04 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: > The only thing I'm not sure of is the microwave oven - does the > microwave-generation-thingy depend on vacuum? It depends on a cavity magnetron which is a vacuum device. > Rather, it is the practical knowledge that experience brings, > the "feel" for how to use them, that is at risk. As vacuum devices are still in use and still being designed into new equipment I doubt that this "feel" for how to use them will be lost for a long time. > Certainly television and radio do not depend on vacuum tubes today > (well, certainly not on the receiving end; the technology exists to > transmit with transistors, but I don't know whether it can handle the > power levels appropriate to mass broadcasting). The transmission chain almost invariably uses vacuum devices for power levels of a few KW or more. The ease of implementation of a single device high power stage still outweighs the benefits of multi module solid state outputs. > Radar - as above: the power transmitting stage may still be vacuum > tube, but certainly _could_ be transistor; Solid state devices just can't handle the high power levels needed for long range radar so magnetrons or klystrons are still used. > the rest definitely can be. Not practically, 500KW at HF (4MHz to 26MHz) is easy with one valve and readily available. There are AFAIK no 500KW solid state HF transmitters available. Even the modulator is valve, it's a 750KW switch mode power supply with a nominal 11KV DC out that can swing from 0V to 22KV. > Comm satellites - aren't they solid state these days? Low power ones are, but you need a big dish to hear those, broadcast satellites use TWT output stages. Most ground stations use klystrons for the uplink, even for low power because they out perform transistor equivalents. If you'd like to see somewhere that still relies on vacuum technology then go here .. http://tx.mb21.co.uk/gallery/woofferton.asp .. which is where I am. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 22 05:27:38 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <9695037.1087900059219.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi, this could have been a Monroe machine. Here is a link to the 1655 (although I think the card reader was actually optical, it was punch-out chad based though) http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/a-monroe1655.html I used one of these in High school (1969-71) and I managed to snag one on eBay a few years ago with the card reader, manual, etc. The fun thing was that the nixie displays were direct outputs from the registers that did the calculating, so they would be flickering away whenever you did some calculations until it finally displayed the result. I am not sure if Monroe had other models at the time. best regards, Steve Thatcher Well I can think of one programmable calculator that I used in the early 1970s that did multiplication/division etc using logarithms. ISTR that it used nixie tubes for output and that this thing cost heaps of money (like $10K in the days when the Aussie dollar was worth more than the US one!). Programming was achieved using a single punched card with pre-punched chads removed using some fancy tool (in my case a paper clip). The card was read by placing it in the card reader (duh!) which had lots of pins and contacts, where the holes were lead to completing a circuit so you basically had a card programmed ROM. I keep wanting to write that this calculator was a Wang, but I'm not really sure (it's been a while). I'm wondering whether the Physics Department still has it - I should ask. From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Jun 22 05:48:50 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) Message-ID: > If that condition isn't met, you have a "gas filled tube" > -- something you occasionally want, but not very often. That describes a thyratron, it behaves like a thyristor, a very useful device. > Take a look at power transistors sometime. Some come in "hockey > puck" packages, which describes not just the shape but also the > size. These big power transistors are actually lots of small transistors in parallel. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From vcf at siconic.com Tue Jun 22 06:03:07 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > Should I get into writing assembly language stuff that > runs as real Windoze applications, or stick to DOS based stuff? How about 6502 or 6809 stuff? :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Jun 22 06:16:43 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) Message-ID: > I'd guess that power transistors of that size aren't very vulnerable to > radiation, They are as the active region is still very small. > (I suspect) much of a valve's rad-hardening is due to sheer size, It is. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Tue Jun 22 06:23:01 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) Message-ID: > A transistor can avalanche and not recover without removing the > power. A tube can recover with the power on, as long as the metal > don't ionize. Not true, a flashover in a valve is just as destructive as a similar condition in a transistor and cannot be snubbed without removing the supplies. We have big crowbar switches here. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 22 06:39:30 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: ...) In-Reply-To: <40D7FA30.ED84E261@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <001f01c4584d$94f49700$4d4d2c0a@atx> > > How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) > > That should be covered in another class: computer architecture. I don't see how the RISC vs CISC (vs VLIW vs ...) architectural question has any chance of being meaningfully put without a reasonable knowledge of the concepts of assembly language. Ideally teach a simple and restrictive assembly language like that for the PIC processors - this gives a framework for a digression on more complex cases like the x86 assembly ... and also for the architectures that are essentially impractical to program by hand in assembly (stack oriented or modern overlapped RISC). Assembly Language and (processor) Architecture is probably best taught as one course - or as two modules with AL being a prerequisite for (processor+system) Architecture. Andy From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jun 22 06:41:28 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 21, 04 11:53:36 pm Message-ID: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> And thusly Tony Duell spake: > > Problem is, that's _not_ what's taught. Actually, I am not convinced > anything worthwhile is taught in schools any more :-( > When I took my Computer Electronics Technician course, all of the test were done open book - but students still failed. The problem wasn't that the knowledge wasn't in the books, it was the students didn't know how to apply what they learned... :( When you changed a parameter of something it became too different for them. :( Cheers, Bryan Pope From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 22 07:17:44 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <001901c45852$ec706d10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bryan Pope" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 7:41 AM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > And thusly Tony Duell spake: > > > > Problem is, that's _not_ what's taught. Actually, I am not convinced > > anything worthwhile is taught in schools any more :-( > > > > When I took my Computer Electronics Technician course, all of the test were > done open book - but students still failed. > > The problem wasn't that the knowledge wasn't in the books, it was the students > didn't know how to apply what they learned... :( When you changed a > parameter of something it became too different for them. :( > > Cheers, > > Bryan Pope > > My short term memory sucks, therefore I have to learn how things work to solve problems. Most tests given at schools are based on just memorizing specific problems and puking them up on test day. If you have a picture perfect memory you do extremely well in your classes, but are you really learning anything? So if your designing complicated products you need to know how things work, if your practicing medicine or law your probably better have perfect memory. From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 22 02:27:11 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) Message-ID: I don't bite, weah! password for archive: 73633 From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Jun 22 08:10:55 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org wrote: > I don't bite, weah! > password for archive: 73633 What the heck is this? Is it some kind of Mailman bounce probe? (Since I've received at least 20 cctalk mails since yesterday evening, I'm not sure how it could think I was bouncing mails...) JP From passerm at umkc.edu Tue Jun 22 08:14:55 2004 From: passerm at umkc.edu (Michael Passer) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2724A17F-C44E-11D8-8B41-000393C3108A@umkc.edu> > What the heck is this? I believe it's a Windows-targeted virus or worm, the payload of which was fortunately stripped from the message at some point before it was propagated to the list. --Mike From jplist at kiwigeek.com Tue Jun 22 08:19:09 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) In-Reply-To: <2724A17F-C44E-11D8-8B41-000393C3108A@umkc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Michael Passer wrote: > > What the heck is this? > I believe it's a Windows-targeted virus or worm, the payload of which > was fortunately stripped from the message at some point before it was > propagated to the list. Very curious that it came from the cctalk-bounces address. JP From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 22 08:27:11 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) References: Message-ID: <002e01c4585c$9ff7f700$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 9:19 AM Subject: Re: :-) > > > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Michael Passer wrote: > > > What the heck is this? > > I believe it's a Windows-targeted virus or worm, the payload of which > > was fortunately stripped from the message at some point before it was > > propagated to the list. > > Very curious that it came from the cctalk-bounces address. > > JP > > Good, I thought I was the only one getting that weird email. From dan_williams at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 22 08:41:36 2004 From: dan_williams at ntlworld.com (Dan Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D83710.6030906@ntlworld.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Michael Passer wrote: > >>>What the heck is this? >> >>I believe it's a Windows-targeted virus or worm, the payload of which >>was fortunately stripped from the message at some point before it was >>propagated to the list. > > > Very curious that it came from the cctalk-bounces address. > > JP > > I was looking at that earlier it seems to come from an address 200.0.214.34 . Not registered to anyone but has ssh and web active. Is the a members machine with a virus ? Dan From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 22 08:45:35 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language", ReRe: "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... References: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> <40D7FA30.ED84E261@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <006d01c4585f$3296d660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> An important point might be that any system with more than, say, a 20 page source code listing will start having bugs in it, so making each instruction do more will allow the system to do more with fewer bugs. Call it a human capacity for breadth of attention. John A. this list is gettin me fat From bert at brothom.nl Tue Jun 22 09:54:33 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: ...) References: <001f01c4584d$94f49700$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <40D84829.20A22008@brothom.nl> Andy Holt wrote: > > > > How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) > > > > That should be covered in another class: computer architecture. > > I don't see how the RISC vs CISC (vs VLIW vs ...) architectural question has > any chance of being meaningfully put without a reasonable knowledge of the > concepts of assembly language. Ideally teach a simple and restrictive That does not imply that the reverse is true also. You can still learn assembly language without knowing anything about CISC or RISC. I think I know very skilled people who really understand assembly programming, but have no idea what CISC or RISC means. The way I experienced it was that RISC suddenly appeared and only by then CISC processors where called that way. Regards, Bert From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 22 09:03:42 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language",ReRe: "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... In-Reply-To: <006d01c4585f$3296d660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: I have been following this with great interest, and trying to hold back on commenting until I see where it went. As a little background I have been programming since 1972. Started on a PDP-8 writing everything in PAL-8 off of teletypes with paper tape. I also developed many military systems using embedded processors with 4-8K ROM and 256B-2KB RAM. These days I own and operate a company which primarily programs Windows and Linux applications although we do some embedded systems work. 1) Reliability and Maintainability are more important than Memory/CPU Cycles these days. 2) Good Code or Bad code can be written in ANY environment. 3) Compilers are better than humans at doing things consistantly. The end result is that it is not necessary to spend the hours/days/weeks [many fondly remembered] to make a program a few bytes smaller or a few cycles quicker. I do not believe however that this justifies the writing of bad or horribly inefficient code. Most of what is written today is crap, but my statement is not based on size or speed, but rather the number of patches/updates that are required. Having a basic understanding of machine architecture and "what goes on under the hood" is critical to writing good code. Knowing the details [e.g. specific directives for implementing a macro] is not. I recently finished a job using a major microsprocessor [PIC] that DOES NOT HAVE A [accessable] STACK. There is NO concept of push arguments on the stack and call the sub-routine. The "C" compiler is actually a sub-set of the full language since recursion will not work [nor is it flagged as an error]. Parameters are stored in fixed locations allocated by the compiler linker. The potential call tree is walked during the compilation process to see what routines can share temporary storage locations. I would estimate that 90% of the progrmmers out there today, who are "qualified C programmers" could not easily understand this, or adapt their coding style to it [the advantage of parameters over global variables is minimized in this environment]. As far as teaching assembler, I would recommend a slightly different approach to the "tradiitional" one. Instead of focusing on writing code from scratch, focus on what the code means. This might include some of the following: 1) Provide a library of source "building blocks". Focus on usage and impact. Remove the emphasis from knowing the complete instruction set and all of the assembler directives. 2) If "C" is a pre-requisite, write/purchase/acquire a small x86 emulator written in "C". It should be small [and probably not need to support the full x86]. I have seen "the light go on" in a number of "apprentice" programmers who understand "C" [or at least belive they do] but are confused by machine language. Seeing the register set as a "struct", seeing instruction dispatch as a "switch", etc often provides a good mental link. 3) Work heavily with compiler generated assembler. Most of the students will not ever code by hand, but seeing the output from compilers for high level source [different methods, different compilers, different source languages, maybe even a brief MSIL] is something they should be able to look at and at least determine if it is "heavy" or "light", and do minor trace/debug operations 4) Be goal oritented. Have a target that is a fairly significant project [heck even a game!]. You could present the target at the beginning of the course ["By the end of the term we will...."], or keep it as a surprise for near the end ["...Now that we have learned the basics, lets put it all together]. I have used both methods. Where the learner is an unknown [as in a classroom prior to the start of the semester] I prefer the former. If I know the learner [typical when doing training with some of my long term clients] then I like the "surprise" element, if I believe the person will "stick through the boring parts" at the beginning. The goal is to show that you really can do useful stuff and it is NOT just an acedemic exercise. These are just a few of my ideas and experiences, and by no means complete or definitive. Feel free to contact me directly david@dynamicconcepts.us if you would like to discuss this in greater detail off-list. I fully realize that setting up a class in this fashion takes significantly more work. It does not map directly to any existing "TextBook". Going through a sememster of "OPCODE 0x32 is the MOV instruction which will....; OPCODE 0x33 is the CLR instruction which will...." is certainly easier on the educational institution [which explains why this seems to be hown many classes are taught, based on what I see recent graduates knowing (if anything)], but does not [IMHO] provide the student with any useful knowledge to apply in the real world. David V. Corbin President / Chief Software Architect Dynamic Concepts Development Corp Sayville, NY 11782 631-244-8487 From tomhudson at execpc.com Tue Jun 22 09:03:34 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" In-Reply-To: <00b301c45817$f884a070$2201a8c0@finans> References: <20040621145239.V20194@newshell.lmi.net> <40D79CA9.6020903@execpc.com> <00b301c45817$f884a070$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <40D83C36.6030704@execpc.com> Great story, Nico. All I can say is, on that project I did that needed all the overlays, thank heaven for the Corvus hard drive we had! This thing was a $3000, 10MB(!) drive specially set up for the Atari machines. It was partitioned internally like a bunch of individual floppy disks so the Atari file system could deal with it, and the interface was via the joystick ports on the front of the 400/800 machines! Each port had four bits of data and another line they used for various control, strobing, etc. Physically, this drive was huge, as you might imagine for a 1984 unit -- And TEN MEGABYTES! Woo hoo! I thought I was king of the world with that thing. I rigged a special interface for the drive so that up to 8 Atari machines could use it more or less simultaneously. At least we didn't have to worry about wearing out floppies! -Tom Nico de Jong wrote: >I recognize the situation. >Back in my Philips (one ell, not two) days, I was working on a 32K (8 bit) >mini system for local authorities. Everything was devided in 2K/8bit pages. >The program was so big, that (1) in order to get a 10-20 byte routine, I had >to split up a procedure in two parts (A and B) , where B could then be >called from a procedure C. The reason to call B from C, was that I otherwise >would not have room to end C with a RETURN instruction. Disgusting, but it >teaches you about effective (in the sens of compact) programming. >Another project in the system, had been "undersold" by the representative. >He tought 32K was more then sufficient for RJE, 4-5 tellers, and 1x 3270 >simulation. It wasnt. It ran efficiently on 64K, but the customer didnt want >to buy 32 more K. The seller didnt want to admit loose of face, so what we >did, was to implement a disk overlay routine on 8" SSSD floppies. God, it >stank ! The traffic on the floppy was so intense, that we had to replace the >floppy at least once a week. Totally worn out. However, the seller was >happy, as he got his provision from a 32K sale > > > From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Jun 22 09:36:11 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <9695037.1087900059219.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> References: <9695037.1087900059219.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <81CAE278-C459-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 22 Jun 2004, at 20:27, Steve Thatcher wrote: > Hi, this could have been a Monroe machine. > > Here is a link to the 1655 (although I think the card reader was > actually optical, it was punch-out chad based though) > > http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/a-monroe1655.html > > I used one of these in High school (1969-71) and I managed to snag one > on eBay a few years ago with the card reader, manual, etc. The fun > thing was that the nixie displays were direct outputs from the > registers that did the calculating, so they would be flickering away > whenever you did some calculations until it finally displayed the > result. > > I am not sure if Monroe had other models at the time. Well if it was a Monroe it was different to this one. I recall it being much larger with a metal, angular blue case. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 22 09:38:33 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics(was References: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> <40D7FA30.ED84E261@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <16600.17513.504000.252377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Bert" == Bert Thomas writes: Bert> Fred Cisin wrote: >> This fall, I get to teach Assembly Language again! (after 2 >> years) They've scheduled it for Saturday morning, which sucks, but >> it's still worth it. >> >> I need to make some decisions about some of the content. Should I >> include discussion of the .Net IL assembler? Bert> I'm not sure. I hate proprietary microsoft stuff, therefore my Bert> guess whould be no. >> How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) Bert> That should be covered in another class: computer Bert> architecture. I think it would suffice if you only discussed Bert> intel, since that allows students to experiment with what they Bert> learned. Assembly languages are all so much related that if you Bert> learned one, you easily learn any other. At least that is my Bert> experience. If at all possible, teach assembly language on ANY machine OTHER than Intel. There's nothing within an order of magnitude as ugly, baroque, or bizarre as the x86 instruction set architecture; not even the IBM/360 comes close. Not only are RISC machines easy to implement, they are also easy to understand at an assembly language level. MIPS has just one crock (delay slots); Alpha is even better. Making any of them fly is another matter -- you can't do that with ANY contemporary machine until and unless you really understand how it schedules instructions. And for modern machines that takes quite a lot of study (for RISC as well as x86). But to get started on writing just *correct* assembler code, RISC is a breeze. Run Unix, it has a much simpler ABI. Or use a bare machine -- serial line output is trivial, certainly once you've initialized the UART. Interrupts? Sure, at some point. Not necessarily day 1. For one thing, embedded systems don't necessarily use interrupts. paul From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 22 09:42:19 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D8454B.4030701@mdrconsult.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004 cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org wrote: > >>I don't bite, weah! >>password for archive: 73633 > > > What the heck is this? It's porn spam without the binaries. I'm the mail admin for MDR; I see a crapload of these. Doc From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Jun 22 09:45:29 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <81CAE278-C459-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <9695037.1087900059219.JavaMail.root@statler.psp.pas.earthlink.net> <81CAE278-C459-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: On 23 Jun 2004, at 00:36, Huw Davies wrote: > > On 22 Jun 2004, at 20:27, Steve Thatcher wrote: > >> Hi, this could have been a Monroe machine. >> >> Here is a link to the 1655 (although I think the card reader was >> actually optical, it was punch-out chad based though) >> >> http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/a-monroe1655.html Using this URL as a base, a couple of minutes of point and click leads to http://www.oldcalculatormuseum.com/wangloci.html So my rusty memory wasn't so bad after all, indeed it was a Wang and the one I used had the first version of the card reader. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 22 10:00:45 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language",ReRe: "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... References: <006d01c4585f$3296d660$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> 1) Reliability and Maintainability are more important than David> Memory/CPU Cycles these days. 2) Good Code or Bad code can be David> written in ANY environment. 3) Compilers are better than David> humans at doing things consistantly. (1) Reliability is always more important. But memory/CPU cycles cannot be ignored when your customers are running benchmarks, and when you're trying to beat the competition using less expensive hardware than they are. (2) Yes indeed -- but being skilled at assembly language programming imposes a useful discipline that carries over into other languages. (3) Not true. A compiler will beat a poor assembly programmer all the time, and an average one much of the time. But a programmer can know more about the problem than the compiler can ever know (because the higher level language can't express everything there is to say about the problem) so an excellent programmer can always tie the compiler, and in selected spots can beat the compiler by a very large margin. It's important to know when to spend the effort, and that is also part of what marks an excellent programmer. David> The end result is that it is not necessary to spend the David> hours/days/weeks [many fondly remembered] to make a program a David> few bytes smaller or a few cycles quicker. True, but about a year ago I spent a week or so on a routine that takes about 30% of the CPU, and (with the help of a CPU expert) made it 50% faster. It started out faster already than what the compiler could do; the end result is way beyond any compiler designer's fondest imagination. David> Having a basic understanding of machine architecture and "what David> goes on under the hood" is critical to writing good David> code. Knowing the details [e.g. specific directives for David> implementing a macro] is not. I recently finished a job using David> a major microsprocessor [PIC] that DOES NOT HAVE A David> [accessable] STACK. So? A 360 doesn't have a stack either, but that doesn't prevent it from implementing C. Nor does a Cyber have a stack; its subroutine call is like the PDP8. But it supported Algol, which taught recursion to C. paul From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 22 05:00:04 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: ello! =)) Message-ID: Argh, i don't like the plaintext :) password: 83348 From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Jun 22 10:05:05 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: ello! =)) In-Reply-To: from "cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org" at Jun 22, 04 12:00:04 pm Message-ID: <200406221505.LAA12506@wordstock.com> Grrr... I don't like these messages!!!! :( :( :( And thusly cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org spake: > > ----------tfiesciwerkeeoexkbju > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Argh, i don't like the plaintext :) > > password: 83348 > > ----------tfiesciwerkeeoexkbju-- > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 22 11:00:26 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language",ReRe: "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... In-Reply-To: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul, Thank for your comments. First you left out my intentional use of the word "consistantly" when discussing performance. I was not discussing raw performance. If you ask a given programmer of any experience level (except novice) to code the EXACT same algorithm once a week for a year, I strongly doubt that you will get 52 identical binaries. If nothing else a different register will be used somewhere, etc. When I have been in a marathon coding session [fortunately not as common, the body will not really take it any more], I am much more likely to code a register over-write or forget that a given instruction effects some conditional flag [or code an unnecessary "update the conditionals" type instruction] than the compiler is when compiling a piece of C/C++/C#/VB/Cobol/Fortram code. Turning the discusion to performance [raw]. On simpler microprocessors [PIC, 6809, 6502, etc] I will concede that an excellent assembler level program can beat the compiler in many cases. From a business standpoint, it may very well not be worth the additional cost however. On a multi-processor pentium class machine with L1 and L2 cache, working in a virtual memory environment, etc, my experience has shown that most senior programmers with years of experience can not even come close to matching the compiler! In fact I have only worked with one individual who really had the "feel" to be able to create code that ran noticably faster than the code I produced in C++ [after MUCH study of the code generation, benchmarking different constructs, etc]. Since none of the other [8] team members could code in anything other than C/C++, his code was "untouchable" if he and I were both unavailable. However ANY of the team members could easily read my code and make changes. The result was that he concentrated on the one area of the code that DID require his skills [the DSP/PC data exchange] while the rest of the team developed the remainder of the project [Otari's first 100% digital audio mixing console...Advanta!]. btw: I did not mean to imply that a non-stack oriented architecture implied that "C" [or other languages] could not be implemented. Simply that the *vendor name deleted* compiler (which is available as a free download....) did not. Since the program was fairly trivial, and of low performance requirements, this was perfectly acceptable and met a nice cost / programming time match for the specific project. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 11:01 AM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: RE: "Nobody programs in machine language",ReRe: >>> "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... >>> >>> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: >>> >>> David> 1) Reliability and Maintainability are more >>> important than David> Memory/CPU Cycles these days. 2) >>> Good Code or Bad code can be David> written in ANY >>> environment. 3) Compilers are better than David> humans >>> at doing things consistantly. >>> >>> (1) Reliability is always more important. But memory/CPU >>> cycles cannot be ignored when your customers are running >>> benchmarks, and when you're trying to beat the competition >>> using less expensive hardware than they are. (2) Yes >>> indeed -- but being skilled at assembly language >>> programming imposes a useful discipline that carries over >>> into other languages. (3) Not true. A compiler will beat >>> a poor assembly programmer all the time, and an average one >>> much of the time. But a programmer can know more about the >>> problem than the compiler can ever know (because the higher >>> level language can't express everything there is to say >>> about the problem) so an excellent programmer can always >>> tie the compiler, and in selected spots can beat the >>> compiler by a very large margin. It's important to know >>> when to spend the effort, and that is also part of what >>> marks an excellent programmer. >>> >>> David> The end result is that it is not necessary to spend >>> the David> hours/days/weeks [many fondly remembered] to >>> make a program a David> few bytes smaller or a few cycles quicker. >>> >>> True, but about a year ago I spent a week or so on a >>> routine that takes about 30% of the CPU, and (with the help >>> of a CPU expert) made it 50% faster. It started out faster >>> already than what the compiler could do; the end result is >>> way beyond any compiler designer's fondest imagination. >>> >>> David> Having a basic understanding of machine >>> architecture and "what David> goes on under the hood" is >>> critical to writing good David> code. Knowing the details >>> [e.g. specific directives for David> implementing a >>> macro] is not. I recently finished a job using David> a >>> major microsprocessor [PIC] that DOES NOT HAVE A David> >>> [accessable] STACK. >>> >>> So? A 360 doesn't have a stack either, but that doesn't >>> prevent it from implementing C. Nor does a Cyber have a >>> stack; its subroutine call is like the PDP8. But it >>> supported Algol, which taught recursion to C. >>> >>> paul >>> From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 22 11:02:56 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics(was In-Reply-To: <16600.17513.504000.252377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >>> >>> Making any of them fly is another matter -- you can't do >>> that with ANY contemporary machine until and unless you >>> really understand how it schedules instructions. And for >>> modern machines that takes quite a lot of study (for RISC >>> as well as x86). But to get started on writing just >>> *correct* assembler code, RISC is a breeze. >>> This is 100% on target for environments such as the Pentium with L1 and L2 cache, pipelining, etc. IMHO there is no feasible method to teach this within the time constraints of a university course [or even series of courses]. Fortunately 99%+ of the students will not ever need it. (It should of course be mentioned and explained) From deano at rattie.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 11:15:22 2004 From: deano at rattie.demon.co.uk (Deano Calver) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D85B1A.6010307@rattie.demon.co.uk> William Donzelli wrote: >>Regardless of whether you actually USE it in the project, >>if you do not have an understanding of machine language, >>then you can not write a good "driver", or anything else >>that directly addresses hardware. >> >> > >I ask then - how much code today is being written in machine language? One >percent? A tenth of a percent? C may be a pain in the neck, but it is used >in all sorts of places* where machine language was king. > >In any case, if we are talking about less than a percent, I think that >would be a "specialty". > >*yes, I know about code that has to be very efficient. > > As there aren't compiler technologies that can handle vector units (SIMD maths units, the best you get is intrinsics which is just ASM with auto register allocations), in my business (games) there are still some serious amounts of assembler being written (the figure usually quoted is around 10% of the dev time in console work is at the machine level, PC is much less maybe 1%). You also have the portable market (GBA mainly) (where your closer to 30% and maybe higher) and then you have graphics chips where even with HLSL/GLSL (high level vector languages for graphics) you still have to know the machine level information (HLSL is new, at this time 90% of shipping pixel and vertex shaders are written in ASM). To give you an idea of scale of ASM usage, every PS2 game (something like 1/3rd of a billion units sold) use a 4K and a 16K LIW CPU (each capable of over 1 GFLOPS sustained) that there are no compilers for. Even if you can get away with using high level languages, ASM is still the heart and if you can't read an ASM manual you can't work on the low level stuff. Sure not everybody needs to work on low level stuff but you still need 10+ per game who do. The real specialty level in games is knowing how CPU and GPU work at the sub-cycle level. Want a good reason to teach ASM in uni's? Remind people that games will become the biggest entertainment industry in the US within the next 10 years and we need ASM programmers. Bye, Deano From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 22 11:32:40 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Prime 5320 *possibly* up for grabs (Ascot, UK) Message-ID: <1087921960.10285.65.camel@weka.localdomain> Hi all, I just heard of a Prime 5320 (1990 vintage) up for grabs in Ascot, UK. It's possible the museum are going to take it (if only to save it from the crusher), but it really depends on what the transport arrangements are, as it's too far away from any of the staff to do a pick-up. If the owners can deliver then it's not a problem! Apparently there's an unknown PSU fault with it, and attempts by the company who own it to get it professionally fixed have failed - hence the reason it's going out the door. Comes with hard disks, tapes and floppies I've been told (no idea about documentation) Unfortunately I don't have a timescale on how long it can stay where it is before it gets dumped - I've lost track of how many times people contact us about stuff and if they don't hear back within a couple of hours they haul it off to be crushed... :-( I'm still waiting to hear about the delivery issue. As these machines aren't that common though on this side of the pond, it would seem nice to line up someone who can save it assuming that the museum can't. cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 22 11:35:12 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language",ReRe: "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... References: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16600.24512.10000.774475@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> Paul, Thank for your comments. David> First you left out my intentional use of the word David> "consistantly" when discussing performance. I was not David> discussing raw performance. If you ask a given programmer of David> any experience level (except novice) to code the EXACT same David> algorithm once a week for a year, I strongly doubt that you David> will get 52 identical binaries. If nothing else a different David> register will be used somewhere, etc. True, but so what? If the programmer is adequately competent then all instances of the solution will meet spec. David> When I have been in a marathon coding session [fortunately not David> as common, the body will not really take it any more], I am David> much more likely to code a register over-write or forget that David> a given instruction effects some conditional flag [or code an David> unnecessary "update the conditionals" type instruction] than David> the compiler is when compiling a piece of David> C/C++/C#/VB/Cobol/Fortram code. That's why startups that believe their engineers should work 7 day weeks and 60+ hours per week for months on end are disasters waiting to happen. David> Turning the discusion to performance [raw]. On simpler David> microprocessors [PIC, 6809, 6502, etc] I will concede that an David> excellent assembler level program can beat the compiler in David> many cases. From a business standpoint, it may very well not David> be worth the additional cost however. On a multi-processor David> pentium class machine with L1 and L2 cache, working in a David> virtual memory environment, etc, my experience has shown that David> most senior programmers with years of experience can not even David> come close to matching the compiler! That's directly counter to my experience. The example I mentioned (admittedly a rather special case -- a block XOR operation for a RAID storage system) was implemented on a high end MIPS processor with two level cache, 4 functional units, etc. There are plenty of reasons why we beat the compiler by a large margin. One reason is that we know constraints that you can't express in C (alignment, buffer size always a multiple of 512, etc.). A big reason is that the humans involved -- especially the apps engineer at the CPU vendor end -- know a lot more about the machine's pipeline, the queue depth of its memory interface, etc., than the compiler does. That second part is admittedly fixable; the first point is not. But even now, several years later, the compiler is still nowhere close to knowing as much as we did. To pick another example -- if you want performance, would you code memcpy() in C? No way. You can beat the compiler, and it's worth the effort to do so. As for the business issue, indeed it has long been true that assembler is for special cases. If a week or two of work can cut 50% out of a routine that's 30% of the system, you've just improved the system performance by 15% or more, and that's very definitely worth doing from the business point of view. paul From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 11:52:12 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406221653.MAA28357@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> What the heck is this? >> I believe it's a Windows-targeted virus or worm, the payload of >> which was fortunately stripped from the message at some point before >> it was propagated to the list. > Very curious that it came from the cctalk-bounces address. Not really. Recent Windows malware normally forges the fromline, and I don't find it at all surprising that it used a forged fromline that will often occur close to the to-address it used. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 12:19:26 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040622040240.8030.qmail@mail.seefried.com> Message-ID: > Modern games (as in most anything past the 8-bit era) are written > predominately if not exclusively in higher level languages (C, C++ or C#) > and rely much more on content (story, textures, skins, etc.) than anything > that has to be written in machine language for success. And the engines > driving these games haven't been written in machine (or assembly) in a long, > long time. Modern games use DirectX or OpenGL and are written in high level > languages. A serious gamer I know says that there are actualy fairly few graphics engines out there - many game companies buy the right to use existing ones. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 12:55:33 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > (1) Reliability is always more important. But memory/CPU cycles > cannot be ignored when your customers are running benchmarks, and when > you're trying to beat the competition using less expensive hardware > than they are. Frankly, I don't think too many applications are ever tested for speed other than "is it fast enough not to be a pain?". Sure, some applications need speed at the forefront, but let's face it, most don't. There are probably ten times the number of people writing programs that balance checkbooks or are just dressed up interfaces for some other mundane programs, to the one guy that is writing some speed needing game. When it comes to testing these mundane programs for speed, typically the requirement is "just don't make it slow". > (2) Yes indeed -- but being skilled at assembly > language programming imposes a useful discipline that carries over > into other languages. Yes, but how useful? I don't think the industry thinks it is worth it. As a side (and to give the hornet's nest another whack), shouldn't good programming discipline be formed using Pascal? That is why it was invented. You break the rules, it yells at you. Of course, Pascal is falling from grace as well... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From Innfogra at aol.com Tue Jun 22 13:09:38 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: :-) Message-ID: <1ea.239f1dab.2e09cfe2@aol.com> > I was looking at that earlier it seems to come from an address > 200.0.214.34 . Not registered to anyone but has ssh and web active. Is > the a members machine with a virus ? I think this address tracks down to this report form LACNIC registry. (Latin America & Caribbean registry) I entered the address 200.0.214.34 in whois.lacnic.net for the report below which did not format correctly. I use Sam Spade for my initial tracing. I like it to find where strange mail comes from. Copyright LACNIC lacnic.net The data below is provided for information purposes and to assist persons in obtaining information about or related to AS and IP numbers registrations By submitting a whois query, you agree to use this data only for lawful purposes. 2004-06-22 14:59:51 (BRT -03:00)inetnum: 200.0.214/24status: reallocatedowner: PSINet Argentinaownerid: AR-PSAR-LACNICaddress: Av. de Mayo 881address: Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires 1084country: ARowner-c: CH69-ARINinetrev: 200.0.214/24nserver: NS1.ISOL.NET.AR nsstat: 20040620 AAnslastaa: 20040620nserver: DNS1.SSDNET.COM.AR nsstat: 20040620 UHnslastaa: 20020830created: 20000911changed: 20000911inetnum-up: 200.0.208/21source: ARIN-LACNIC-TRANSITIONnic-hdl: CH69-ARINperson: System Engineer Carlos Alberto Horowicze-mail: carlosh@ISOL.NETaddress: PSINet Argentinaaddress: Hornos 690address: Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires 1272country: ARphone: +54-1-313-8082source: ARIN-LACNIC-TRANSITION whois.lacnic.net accepts only direct match queries. Types of queries are: POCs, ownerid, CIDR blocks, IP and AS numbers. Paxton Astorta, OR From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 13:12:58 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008201c45884$8c7fce50$5b01a8c0@athlon> > We said knowledge was being lost, now I am sure of it. Tsk. Poor reasoning there :-) The worst case scenario here is that *someone* has lost some knowledge; but to get that far you would have to show that hw knew it in the first place :-) Actually, I only have a tenuous grasp (for some suitable value of "tenuous") of how the thing works anyway. I've only ever possessed one, it currently still seems to cook as well (or badly) as it ever did so I've had no cause to examine it in any detail. If it breaks, it will get looked at (although I suspect, without ever having checked, that a new megnetron will cost a significant fraction of the price of a microwave oven). Still, there's always the chance that the controller or its keypad will give up the ghost. > I am almost sure the trnasmitter output stages are still > valve-based, at > least on larger transmitters. AFAIK they are. I remember reading an article in (I think) one of the IEE rags some time ago that described some new generation of semiconductors that could handle the combination of power and frequency, but they were only being used in specialised applications because of the cost. I assume that your average TV transmitter mast will stay with valves for a while yet. > I wouldn't want to bet on that. I certainly wouldn't want to try to > design a microwave oscillator using semiconductors of > sufficient power > for a large radar system. If "large" == "big enough to fry the occasional bird", I think I'd tend to agree! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 22 13:18:25 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Prime 5320 *possibly* up for grabs (Ascot, UK) In-Reply-To: <1087921960.10285.65.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001701c45885$4f39cfe0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Apparently there's an unknown PSU fault with it, and attempts by the > company who own it to get it professionally fixed have failed Sounds like a "project" for Tony :-) From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 13:20:57 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <008201c45884$8c7fce50$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > AFAIK they are. I remember reading an article in (I think) > one of the IEE rags some time ago that described some new > generation of semiconductors that could handle the combination > of power and frequency, but they were only being used in > specialised applications because of the cost. I assume that > your average TV transmitter mast will stay with valves for > a while yet. Don't bet on tubes being used in broadcast use for long - the semiconductor has made serious inroads into the field (as in 50 kW). Same with radar (although tubes probably have more life in radar than in radio or TV). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 13:18:30 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <004a01c457ec$158bac30$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <008301c45885$51f2fc70$5b01a8c0@athlon> > If you're a college student studying computer science and > have never programmed in machine/assembler, turn in your > degree, it wasn't worth it. I didn't do a computing-related degree, so I can only comment based on what I saw of the Coumputing Studies dept. (or whatever it was called), but programming as such had little to do with it. Designing a good language (and deciding on a suitable definition of "good"), examining the logic behind algorithms, program verification systems: all of these you would find during your Comp. Sci degree. But programming is only touched on briefly. Much as I assume an architect needs to understand the arrangements of bricks, mortar and other building materials that hang together safely without necessarily having to glue them all together himself. So basically, stuff you'll hardly ever see done in real life, deadline-critical jobs in the real world :-) Antonio From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 13:40:30 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:44 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <008801c45888$64bde6a0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Don't bet on tubes being used in broadcast use for long - the > semiconductor has made serious inroads into the field (as in > 50 kW). Same with radar (although tubes probably have more > life in radar than in radio or TV). I don't work in the field (no pun ...) so I have no idea how soon it will be before new TV (and radio) transmitters are built using semis. I just assume that the existing ones won't be replaced any time soon (since they presumably work) and that the natural replacement rate is relatively low. I could be wrong about either of these things. I've not heard that the new digital services require new transmitters (just new ways of generating signals I guess) and it could be that we all move to cable/satellite services and ditch terrestrial anyway. I just don't think it will happen. Semiconductors have advantages in many areas (power, speed, robustness) but it may be that these do not apply (or do not apply so much) in the high power, high frequency arena. I do expect the main vacuum tube in most display devices will be gone within the next ten years or so. I would have thought the tubes at the middle of the chain (the final stages of the transmitter) would be mostly still around by then. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 22 14:26:34 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Of course, Pascal is falling from grace as well... > Have a look at Delphi and Kylix some time. g. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 22 14:14:27 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Prime 5320 *possibly* up for grabs (Ascot, UK) In-Reply-To: <001701c45885$4f39cfe0$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <001701c45885$4f39cfe0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <1087931667.10285.97.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 18:18, Andy Holt wrote: > > Apparently there's an unknown PSU fault with it, and attempts by the > > company who own it to get it professionally fixed have failed > > Sounds like a "project" for Tony :-) Heh - I suspect he doesn't have the space... cheers, Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 15:25:23 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406222036.QAA29263@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > As a side (and to give the hornet's nest another whack), shouldn't > good programming discipline be formed using Pascal? I don't think it matters so much _how_ it's formed as _that_ it's formed. Whether Pascal is more helpful in forming it than something else is another question, depending on (at least) what the "something else" is. My own opinion, for "something else" values somewhere around the C/C++ range, is that Pascal, or something like it, is helpful for the early stages but not the later stages of such training: it is helpful for teaching the rules, the stage when the rules should always be followed, but it gets in the way for the later stages, the stages when the rules are already learned and the issue is learning when to break them and why. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 15:41:59 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <008201c45884$8c7fce50$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <008201c45884$8c7fce50$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <200406222048.QAA29307@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I've only ever possessed one [microwave oven], it currently still > seems to cook as well (or badly) as it ever did so I've had no cause > to examine it in any detail. Same here. > If it breaks, it will get looked at (although I suspect, without ever > having checked, that a new megnetron will cost a significant fraction > of the price of a microwave oven). Still, there's always the chance > that the controller or its keypad will give up the ghost. That's what happened with my oven. It was bought at a garage sale some years back, and worked fine for some time (years). Then after a lightning storm, it started beeping intermittently at odd times when it shouldn't. After a few days, it occurred to me that if it could beep when it wasn't suppsoed to, it could turn on the microwaves when it isn't supposed to. I opened it up and found that the keypad and control board all culminated in two relays, one to control the fan and the other the microwave-generator. I checked, and a new board would cost almost as much as we paid for the oven. So I yanked the whole thing, wired the fan and magnetron together (I almost always used it on high anyway, and lower power settings worked by imposing a <100% duty cycle on the magnetron), and controlled it with an ordinary wall light switch, on the principle that it's too simple for much to go wrong. But this still didn't mean I dug into the underlying principles of the magnetron. For my purposes, it was a black box: mains power goes in here, microwaves come out there. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 22 16:09:08 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406222048.QAA29307@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <008201c45884$8c7fce50$5b01a8c0@athlon> <200406222048.QAA29307@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1087938548.10676.7.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 20:41, der Mouse wrote: > But this still didn't mean I dug into the underlying principles of the > magnetron. For my purposes, it was a black box: mains power goes in > here, microwaves come out there. Just don't try that with it pointing at your face :-) From als at thangorodrim.de Tue Jun 22 16:01:17 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: References: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040622210117.GA2913@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 01:55:33PM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > (1) Reliability is always more important. But memory/CPU cycles > > cannot be ignored when your customers are running benchmarks, and when > > you're trying to beat the competition using less expensive hardware > > than they are. > > Frankly, I don't think too many applications are ever tested for speed > other than "is it fast enough not to be a pain?". Sure, some applications > need speed at the forefront, but let's face it, most don't. There are > probably ten times the number of people writing programs that balance > checkbooks or are just dressed up interfaces for some other mundane > programs, to the one guy that is writing some speed needing game. When it > comes to testing these mundane programs for speed, typically the > requirement is "just don't make it slow". There are speed issues in programs where one usually doesn't expect them, like in MUAs (Mail User Agents). A while ago I was looking for a suitable graphic MUA under UNIX for my SWMBO (myself being a loyal mutt user, I don't know any usable graphics one offhand). Turns out that most programmers these days seem to be in urgent need of a basic CS education, elementary things like estimating the complexity of algorithms (Big O notation) obviously being not known to them: all the graphical MUAs performed reasonably well when facing small mailboxes (less than 50 small, mostly plain text, mails) but most failed miserably when being set to work with serious amounts of data. One of my mailboxes, filled from a mailinglist, contains some 40000 mails and is around 250 MB in size. Good old mutt copes nicely with this, needing about a minute to read it, with the limiting factor being IO (NFS). And this was with full threading ... Most graphical MUAs I killed after they showed no progress after half an hour of trying to load this mailbox. Net result: all the micro-optimizing of inner loops won't help you if your algorithm is some O(n^2) crap, the nasty thing with those being that they tend to work well with the small datasets used by most during development, while failing spectacularly when used with serious amounts of data. > > (2) Yes indeed -- but being skilled at assembly > > language programming imposes a useful discipline that carries over > > into other languages. > > Yes, but how useful? I don't think the industry thinks it is worth it. > > As a side (and to give the hornet's nest another whack), shouldn't good > programming discipline be formed using Pascal? That is why it was > invented. You break the rules, it yells at you. Learning the ropes of programming with Pascal (or even better Ada), i.e. in what is usually called a "discipline and bondage" programming language is _good_. It teaches one right from the start that sloppy cobbling together of code is not acceptable. Having formed good habits, one might be allowed to proceed to more dangerous programming languages like C. > Of course, Pascal is falling from grace as well... Delphi and Kylix seem to have quite a cloud of users ... Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 16:20:16 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <001901c45852$ec706d10$0500fea9@game> References: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> <001901c45852$ec706d10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > My short term memory sucks, therefore I have to learn how things work to > solve problems. Most tests given at schools are based on just memorizing > specific problems and puking them up on test day. If you have a picture > perfect memory you do extremely well in your classes, but are you really > learning anything? So if your designing complicated products you need to > know how things work, if your practicing medicine or law your probably > better have perfect memory. I don't like to test memory. My tests are all open book - they don't need to write anything on their shirtsleeves. open notes - they don't need to write anything in the margins of the book. Any books or notes, but only what they can carry (we had an incident a few years ago, when somebody tried to take a library cart down the stairs) Calculator permitted - but no cords, and no musical or talking calculators, and none that communicate I may start doing the test in the lab, and let them use the computers From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 16:31:15 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language", ReRe: "Who you callin Nobody?", ReReRe(... In-Reply-To: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <009b01c458a0$3f776f20$5b01a8c0@athlon> > (1) Reliability is always more important. But memory/CPU cycles > cannot be ignored when your customers are running benchmarks, and when > you're trying to beat the competition using less expensive hardware > than they are. That's what the company I work for need to do if we expect to stay in business. > (2) Yes indeed -- but being skilled at assembly > language programming imposes a useful discipline that carries over > into other languages. In our case it is more like being skilled in understanding exactly how the whole system hangs together. Most of the code (99.99%) needs to be correct rather than fast (noone cares too much how fast the web GUI is). The remaining (pretty small) percentage gets pored over by multiple people, looking for a hint of a performance gain. Even that code is almost all in a HLL. In our case that may be because the trick is to do as little as possible in s/w and get the vlsi to do it instead. > (3) Not true. A compiler will beat a poor > assembly programmer all the time, and an average one much of the > time. I'm not sure that's true. A poor assembly programmer can probably pick a lousy algorithm in an HLL too :-) If they are restricted to implementing a specific algorithm, then I agree, these days a compiler for a modern RISC processor should be able to whip the pants off a poor or even average programmer all the time, and even a good programmer much of the time. > But a programmer can know more about the problem than the > compiler can ever know (because the higher level language can't > express everything there is to say about the problem) so an excellent > programmer can always tie the compiler, and in selected spots can beat > the compiler by a very large margin. It's important to know when to > spend the effort, and that is also part of what marks an excellent > programmer. The trouble is that all programmers (good AND bad) think they can predict where it is worth directing their effort. For real world programs, all the evidence I've seen suggests that they are both about equal in their predictive abilities: i.e. almost always wrong! > True, but about a year ago I spent a week or so on a routine that > takes about 30% of the CPU, and (with the help of a CPU expert) made > it 50% faster. It started out faster already than what the compiler > could do; the end result is way beyond any compiler designer's fondest > imagination. The presence of numbers suggests you cheated by doing the unthinkable and actually measuring the performance both before fiddling (to see where you should play) and afterwards (to see what you'd done). Do you realise how much trouble you could get into with such an unconventional approach :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 22 16:34:32 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: ello! =)) In-Reply-To: <200406221505.LAA12506@wordstock.com> References: <200406221505.LAA12506@wordstock.com> Message-ID: In message <200406221505.LAA12506@wordstock.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > Grrr... I don't like these messages!!!! :( :( :( Seconded. Is there any way to block these things at the server? They all seem to be coming from the same machine: Received: from calidad.Rafalim ([200.0.214.34]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with SMTP id i5MFEfhd066233 for ; Tue, 22 Jun 2004 10:14:43 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) I'd put an IP based block on the machine, personally. That or set procmail to drop anything with "Received: calidad.Rafalim" in the headers. Maybe block messages to the list from "cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org"? Usually SpamAssassin catches stuff like that with a DNSBL blocklist (the Spamhaus XBL tends to be quite effective), but that's useless if the classiccmp listserver is relaying them :) Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... It's not the money I want, it's the stuff. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 22 16:41:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >>> >>> I may start doing the test in the lab, and let them use the >>> computers >>> If you have enough equipment I completely agree with this. The days of having to make sure your source code was perfect before submitting a card desk, not having any interactive debuggers, are long gone. The number of people who have to write "enter source, run perfrectly first time" code is an even smaller percentage than those who will write significant amounts of machine level code! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 22 16:44:09 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Transistor curve tester? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040622174409.009145b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I'm in the market for a transistor curve tracer. I'm currently using a Hickok add-on unit but I'd like to get a all-in-one unit such as Tektronix 577 or 576. Does anyone have anything decent for sale or have a suggestions about what features I should look for? Joe From auryn at GCI-Net.com Tue Jun 22 04:26:27 2004 From: auryn at GCI-Net.com (D Yuniskis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: ISO Votrax VS6 Message-ID: <000901c4583b$09538600$de01000a@xxyy> Greetings! I'm looking for any model (desktop, rackmount or "keyboard") of a Votrax VS6 (preferably 6.3) -- working or not. I'd like to document this "bit of history" before they all disappear -- if they haven't already :-( Thanks! --don From david at dynamicconcepts.us Tue Jun 22 06:57:13 2004 From: david at dynamicconcepts.us (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: <20040621202246.B20194@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I have been following this with great interest, and trying to hold back on commenting until I see where it went. As a little background I have been programming since 1972. Started on a PDP-8 writing everything in PAL-8 off of teletypes with paper tape. I also developed many military systems using embedded processors with 4-8K ROM and 256B-2KB RAM. These days I own and operate a company which primarily programs Windows and Linux applications although we do some embedded systems work. 1) Reliability and Maintainability are more important than Memory/CPU Cycles these days. 2) Good Code or Bad code can be written in ANY environment. 3) Compilers are better than humans at doing things consistantly. The end result is that it is not necessary to spend the hours/days/weeks [many fondly remembered] to make a program a few bytes smaller or a few cycles quicker. I do not believe however that this justifies the writing of bad or horribly inefficient code. Most of what is written today is crap, but my statement is not based on size or speed, but rather the number of patches/updates that are required. Having a basic understanding of machine architecture and "what goes on under the hood" is critical to writing good code. Knowing the details [e.g. specific directives for implementing a macro] is not. I recently finished a job using a major microsprocessor [PIC] that DOES NOT HAVE A [accessable] STACK. There is NO concept of push arguments on the stack and call the sub-routine. The "C" compiler is actually a sub-set of the full language since recursion will not work [nor is it flagged as an error]. Parameters are stored in fixed locations allocated by the compiler linker. The potential call tree is walked during the compilation process to see what routines can share temporary storage locations. I would estimate that 90% of the progrmmers out there today, who are "qualified C programmers" could not easily understand this, or adapt their coding style to it [the advantage of parameters over global variables is minimized in this environment]. As far as teaching assembler, I would recommend a slightly different approach to the "tradiitional" one. Instead of focusing on writing code from scratch, focus on what the code means. This might include some of the following: 1) Provide a library of source "building blocks". Focus on usage and impact. Remove the emphasis from knowing the complete instruction set and all of the assembler directives. 2) If "C" is a pre-requisite, write/purchase/acquire a small x86 emulator written in "C". It should be small [and probably not need to support the full x86]. I have seen "the light go on" in a number of "apprentice" programmers who understand "C" [or at least belive they do] but are confused by machine language. Seeing the register set as a "struct", seeing instruction dispatch as a "switch", etc often provides a good mental link. 3) Work heavily with compiler generated assembler. Most of the students will not ever code by hand, but seeing the output from compilers for high level source [different methods, different compilers, different source languages, maybe even a brief MSIL] is something they should be able to look at and at least determine if it is "heavy" or "light", and do minor trace/debug operations 4) Be goal oritented. Have a target that is a fairly significant project [heck even a game!]. You could present the target at the beginning of the course ["By the end of the term we will...."], or keep it as a surprise for near the end ["...Now that we have learned the basics, lets put it all together]. I have used both methods. Where the learner is an unknown [as in a classroom prior to the start of the semester] I prefer the former. If I know the learner [typical when doing training with some of my long term clients] then I like the "surprise" element, if I believe the person will "stick through the boring parts" at the beginning. The goal is to show that you really can do useful stuff and it is NOT just an acedemic exercise. These are just a few of my ideas and experiences, and by no means complete or definitive. Feel free to contact me directly david@dynamicconcepts.us if you would like to discuss this in greater detail off-list. I fully realize that setting up a class in this fashion takes significantly more work. It does not map directly to any existing "TextBook". Going through a sememster of "OPCODE 0x32 is the MOV instruction which will....; OPCODE 0x33 is the CLR instruction which will...." is certainly easier on the educational institution [which explains why this seems to be hown many classes are taught, based on what I see recent graduates knowing (if anything)], but does not [IMHO] provide the student with any useful knowledge to apply in the real world. David V. Corbin President / Chief Software Architect Dynamic Concepts Development Corp Sayville, NY 11782 631-244-8487 From jose at ets1.freeserve.co.uk Tue Jun 22 15:28:24 2004 From: jose at ets1.freeserve.co.uk (Joseph Ewing) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: til308 Message-ID: <000901c45897$79e715b0$ba3e893e@PAPAJOE> I found your name via Google Do you have any til308 or TIL 309 for sale Thanks and regards Jose From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 16:50:10 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics (was In-Reply-To: <40D85B1A.6010307@rattie.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <009e01c458a2$e44acc70$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Want a good reason to teach ASM in uni's? Remind people that > games will > become the biggest entertainment industry in the US within > the next 10 > years and we need ASM programmers. You may need assembly level programmers, but your entire industry is unlikely to employ them in sufficient numbers to be anything other than a blip on the radar. You also have the problem that your hardware is quite specialised and likely to diverge even more as time goes on from the general purpose CPUs that the rest of the world runs its code on. You presumably need people who understand the hardware at a sufficiently deep level. I'm not sure that machine level programming is enough for that (although I guess it *might* be a useful first step). I know that I started out with a bit of 8080, fortunately followed quite swiftly by Z80 (and CP/M). Then PDP-11 and VAX MACRO languages. So a trend of constantly increasing programmer friendliness. Then I had to pick up Alpha (PALcode, lovely stuff), MIPS (R5K, no branch delay slots that I recall), PowerPC, Solaris and more PPC. I learnt to be grateful for compiler's then. I still had to write machine code, but only to provide the basic underpinnings for the OS and maybe a few performance-critical bits. The rest of the time I'm either trying to make sense of debug info that spits out a bunch of registers or trying to squeeze the hardware by having it do multiple things at once. But if I look back on all of this, I still think I've spent 95% of my coding time reading and writing code in a HLL (I'm counting BLISS and C as HLL for the purpose of this message :-)) If the games industry in the UK pays well (and if it employs more than a few dozen programmers!) these days, do let me know. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 16:54:16 2004 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: HP 2113E, TI 990/4 CPUs available Message-ID: <20040622215416.32327.qmail@web81303.mail.yahoo.com> When I began expanding my collection last year, I snapped up a couple of machines that were available on the cheap and interesting at the time. Since then, I've had pretty good luck at fleshing out my PDP-8 collection, which is where I started with this hobby, and I don't feel like I have the time, space, or inclination to do justice to these machines, and would like to put them in the hands of collectors who would appreciate them more. The 2113E CPU is in excellent cosmetic condition and appears to power up (+5V present, fans running), but shows nothing on the display. I don't have a listing of the boards installed, but it is pretty well tricked out. I can take a look tonight. The TI 990/4 was received in awful condition, and is currently disassembled. The chassis is a bit damaged, but is salvageable. It really makes more sense to part this machine out if there is someone who has a chassis and needs spares or replacements for the internals. I am offering the HP for $80 and the TI for $40, plus the actual cost of packing and shipment by a pack-and-ship store. You can also pick them up in Cupertino, California, which would be the easiest and preferred arrangement. I reserve the right to sell only to someone who is, in my judgement, a serious collector and who will be able to provide a good home for each of the machines. I will consider waiving the asking price, particularly if you are able to arrange a local pickup. I really want these machines out of my home ASAP, but I want them to be cared for and appreciated. Please contact me via e-mail if interested. Thanks, --Bill From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 16:55:24 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <009f01c458a3$9f05af80$5b01a8c0@athlon> > to write anything in the margins of the book. Any books or > notes, but only what they can carry (we had an incident a few > years ago, when somebody tried to take a library cart down > the stairs) That's got to be a solid A, if only for the bare-faced cheek of it alone. We need much more of that sort of thinking! :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 16:58:26 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: ello! =)) In-Reply-To: References: <200406221505.LAA12506@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20040622145718.E49817@newshell.lmi.net> > > Grrr... I don't like these messages!!!! :( :( :( > Seconded. Is there any way to block these things at the server? They all seem or at the source? Sounds like a job for the Spaminator! (the spammercidal maniac) From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 17:10:42 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Product documentation and schematics In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00a001c458a5$c26fee20$5b01a8c0@athlon> > As I understnad patent law (and IANAL), if somebody 'competent in the > field' can't recreate the invention from the patent, then the > patent is invalid. I'm not sure that's quite it. I thought that the patent would be invalid if somebody "competent in the art" could be reasonably expected to have thought of it (but not necessarily done it) so you'll obviously never see a patent for moving a cursor by using an xor :-) The few patents I've seen try to be as broad as possible (without going quite far enough to be thrown out as too broad) and give a few specific examples. So if you find that you can make your calculator last for years on a single sunbeam if you use Peruvian Bat Guano as the keyboard membrane, what you do is patent the use of Peruvian Bat Guano as a keyboard membrane in any way shape or form. You give an example which involves a 0.1mm layer of said Guano and claim (correctly) that it improves battery life. Since your patent covers all use of such guano, you don't bother to mention that the best guano is that collected during the summer nights, that a 0.15mm layer produces much more beneficial effects and that only the guano collected by a specific tribe doesn't smell. Of course, by the time the patent agent has finished with the application you won't find simple words like "guano" or "calculator" or "keyboard" in it anywhere at all. I always assume that if I can understand anything at all about a patent on first reading, then someone made a big mistake somewhere :-) BTW: In case bat guano (peruvian or otherwise or indeed any biological waste product [babel fish anyone?]) does prove to be useful in any form of computing device, then please remember that this message counts as publication, so you are too late to make a fortune from my ideas!!! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 22 17:18:43 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Product documentation and schematics References: <00a001c458a5$c26fee20$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <16600.45123.410646.484744@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Antonio" == Antonio Carlini writes: >> As I understnad patent law (and IANAL), if somebody 'competent in >> the field' can't recreate the invention from the patent, then the >> patent is invalid. Antonio> I'm not sure that's quite it. I thought that the patent Antonio> would be invalid if somebody "competent in the art" could be Antonio> reasonably expected to have thought of it (but not Antonio> necessarily done it) so you'll obviously never see a patent Antonio> for moving a cursor by using an xor :-) Antonio> The few patents I've seen try to be as broad as possible Antonio> (without going quite far enough to be thrown out as too Antonio> broad) and give a few specific examples. There are a bunch of requirements -- as I understand it (IANAL), they are roughly like this: 1. It must be useful. 2. It must be "not obvious to one skilled in the art" (that's the one you mentioned). 3. It must be novel. 4. The description has to disclose the invention sufficiently for one "skilled in the art" to reproduce it. 5. The description has to be of a "preferred embodiment", i.e., one you'd pick, not a variant you'd reject in favor of something better you didn't describe. 6. You can't claim what you didn't describe. That's not to say that reality is all that close to this, but this is what I've been told the rules are. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 17:23:23 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040622151533.M49817@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > How about 6502 or 6809 stuff? :) I'm going to teach them how to make programs that run on the machines that are there. But I intend to also show them a little bit about other processors, including the lack of symmetry of the 80x86, what kinds of differences to expect, different mnemonics, different architectures, quirks, etc. My goal for the semester is that they will be able to create simple working programs, be able to start on larger projects, and have a clue how to deal with other different situations. Teaching them how to learn assembly language is far more important than the mastery of a given one. Surely somebody will be offended by that approach. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 22 17:29:22 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> <001901c45852$ec706d10$0500fea9@game> <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40D8B2C2.9050407@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > >>My short term memory sucks, therefore I have to learn how things work to >>solve problems. Most tests given at schools are based on just memorizing >>specific problems and puking them up on test day. If you have a picture >>perfect memory you do extremely well in your classes, but are you really >>learning anything? So if your designing complicated products you need to >>know how things work, if your practicing medicine or law your probably >>better have perfect memory. > > > I don't like to test memory. > My tests are all open book - they don't need to write anything on their > shirtsleeves. > open notes - they don't need to write anything in the margins of the book. > Any books or notes, but only what they can carry (we had an incident a few > years ago, when somebody tried to take a library cart down the stairs) > Calculator permitted - but no cords, and no musical or talking > calculators, and none that communicate > > I may start doing the test in the lab, and let them use the computers I administer the RedHat certifications, which are all performanced-based. No multiple guess or true/false; here's a computer, there's something wrong with it, we want you to make it do . As long as your fix survives a reboot and doesn't break anything else, we don't much care whether you use the point&drool tools, vi, ed, or voodoo. Then, here's a baremetal box, here's the install media. We want a computer that does and . Install media includes the RedHat Admin Guides, all man pages are available, and the incidental howtos and changelogs installed by each software package. I really like that. You don't have to just guess well as in a written test. You also don't have to memorize everything. You have to be able to think under pressure, you have to *read* the instructions and follow them (and I have seen many candidates go home losers because they couldn't do that), you have to effectively budget your time, and you have to know where to go for information. Holy Crap. It's a real-world skills test! :) Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 22 17:45:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: ...) In-Reply-To: <001f01c4584d$94f49700$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <001f01c4584d$94f49700$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <20040622152748.K49817@newshell.lmi.net> > > > How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) > > That should be covered in another class: computer architecture. I'm not able to completely separate them. I can't do a good job of teaching assembly language without dealing with architecture, and I can't do a good job of teaching architecture without some dealing with assembly language. Therefore, the Assembly Language class includes some review of computer architecture, and some lightweight coverage of processor architecture. For example, The easiest way that I know of to explain RISC is after they've managed to create a few simple programs, to then ask some variants of: > would you be willing to give up the DIV instruction, > and replace it with SUB in a loop, which we will inaccurately > guess would take twice as long, if doing so permitted a 300% > improvement in the speed of MOV? [class says YES] > What if the improvement were 30%? [mixed responses] > Let's look at how often each > instruction gets used, and multiply that out to see when it would > pay for itself. Hmmm. Whose program shall we get those statistics > from? > What if we really gutted a lot of less commonly used instructions > that could be replaced by combinations of other instructions, > but used that to have a core of instructions that are really fast? > OK, now let's look at some real world cases." That is the minimum coverage for RISC - just explaining what it is and why. It could easily be expanded rather significantly. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jun 22 18:30:24 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Transistor curve tester? References: <3.0.6.32.20040622174409.009145b0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <40D8C110.1060305@tiac.net> I gotcha covered here! I have a nice Raython dual (A/B) transistor curve tracer in good working condition. Lets trade! Joe R. wrote: > I'm in the market for a transistor curve tracer. I'm currently using a >Hickok add-on unit but I'd like to get a all-in-one unit such as Tektronix >577 or 576. Does anyone have anything decent for sale or have a suggestions >about what features I should look for? > > Joe > > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 22 18:34:42 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: <20040622210117.GA2913@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20040622210117.GA2913@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <2a3945c34c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <20040622210117.GA2913@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Delphi and Kylix seem to have quite a cloud of users ... Why shouldn't they? I've used Delphi for quick-n-simple proof-of-concept apps and graphics-based software that would be a total pig to write using most other development tools. To be honest, I prefer C++Builder, but Delphi is good enough for most things. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... This is a Tagline mirror> Message-ID: <000b01c458b1$9aa496f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Does he have the blessing of CMP (DDJ's current owner and copyright holder)? CMP is generous about granting permission for using material from its archives, but this is much larger than the usual request. I might be able to get the contact info for the appropriate permissions person if anyone wants to pursue it. In related news, DDJ itself is going through a rough patch at the moment--ad sales are 57% down from last year. --Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 21, 2004 8:10 PM Subject: Re: 21+ Years of DDJ Indexed > On Mon, 21 Jun 2004, Paul Pennington wrote: > > > Sellam said: > > > > > Whilst doing an unrelated search, I came across this gem: > > > > > > Twenty-One + Years of Dr. Dobb's Journal Indexed > > > http://www.cstone.net/~bachs/ddj/ > > > > That's nice, but he missed all the "good stuff" between 1976 and 1982. > > The magazine website (www.ddj.com) doesn't seem to cover this period either > > :-( > > As the author of the index explained to me in private e-mail, he started > doing the index commercially in 1988, and as he wanted to get paid to do > it, he decided to start in January 1982 since he needed to get something > going right away and Jan/82 is around the start of the IBM PC, so it would > be commercially relevant as well. > > At any rate, I've proposed that we turn this into an open source type > project and are discussing it now. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > > From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jun 22 18:43:01 2004 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) References: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net> Oddly I've seen a fair ammount of vintage stuff get tossed at the end of the MIT Flea. Where are all the local collectors in Massachusettes? evan wrote: >The MIT Swapfest, also known as "Flea@MIT" is a great event. I lived in Boston >for four years, until last month when I moved, but I went to the swapfest many >times and always found interesting things. There is a small-ish outdoors area >and a huge indoors area. There are even people selling snacks (usually >doughnuts and barbeque food, coffee and Coke) by one of the entrances. LOL, >just don't do what I did the first time, and think the small outdoors part was >the whole thing! > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 17:40:35 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040622055309.7E29210B2C8C@swift.conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jun 22, 4 01:53:09 am Message-ID: > I think the reason assembly isn't taught anymore is that industry (or > academia) don't see it worth the time and effort to. Right now, the most Actually, IMHO the fact that it's often not a good idea to code in assembly language has _nothing_ to do with whether it should be taught (I think it should). Think of the other things that are taught in schools. How many people actually _need_ to learn calculus? Or even algebra for that matter. Why bother reading the classics of litterature? In fact what do you think should be taught in schools. I will agree that most programs (although not all) are better written in high level languages. Even so, I think every competant programmer and hardware deisgner should have learnt at least one machine code, and should have written at least one machine code program. It is important to understand that a program can be coded as a sequence of bytes/words, what operations are commonly available in machine code, and so on. It _will_, IMHO, make you a better programmer. Actually, I think everyone should have a go at writing microcode too. And should understnad at least one processor (however simple) to gate/ff level. I don;t claim to be a programmer, BTW, but I have written machine code and assembly language. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 17:44:36 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <116CB9EC-C424-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jun 22, 4 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > > On 22 Jun 2004, at 08:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > There have been discussions over here about teaching maths in schools, > > in that with the common use of calculators it's not necessary for > > students to understand things like long multiplications (the fact > > that's > > _exactly_ how every calculator I've ever examined does multiplication > > is > > another matter, but anyway). To some extent that's true, but then you > > should teach the correct use of calculators. Why some statements that > > are > > mathemetically correct are not suitable for machine calculation. The > > problem with itterations that converge far too slowly, or are unstable. > > Things like that. > > Well I can think of one programmable calculator that I used in the > early 1970s > that did multiplication/division etc using logarithms. This had the neat Interesting. The only machine I've ever come across that did something like that weas the I2S (International Imaging Systems) Model 70 Image processor/display. Those machines have several byteplanes, the outputs of which feed lookup tables, the outputs of those are added (there's a large board of full adders in the rack), then to more lookup tables. The manaul suggests programming log and antilog tables if you want to multiply the byteplanes. Has anyone else ever come across these I2S machines? Perhaps I should have said that all calculators _that I have worked on and understood the internals of_ (which basically means quite a few HP models) use a long multiplication algorithm. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 17:47:52 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <116CB9EC-C424-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jun 22, 4 06:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > Problem is, that's _not_ what's taught. Actually, I am not convinced > > anything worthwhile is taught in schools any more :-( > > I don't know enough to comment, only that the results are generally > disappointing. Both in lack of knowledge, and more importantly in a lack of any desire to learn more. > Perhaps I was atypical for my generation, but I read heaps of things > when I was young > (apart from lots of fiction, there were useful things like "Look and > Learn") I read very little fiction, but I must have several thousand non-fiction books (mostly on maths, engineering, electronics, etc), and I read them all the time. I must be the only person who regards 'radio and television serviceing' (annual volumes of circuits and service notes for radios and TVs) as light bedtime reading, but it's amazing how many useful tricks you learn analusing those circuits. > as we didn't have much TV and no computers to waste time with. Of All I can say is that when digital TV comes, I'm not going to bother buying a decoder. There are plenty more interesting things to spend my time doing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 17:51:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... In-Reply-To: from "Davison, Lee" at Jun 22, 4 12:16:43 pm Message-ID: > > (I suspect) much of a valve's rad-hardening is due to sheer size, > > It is. I am not convinced. I remember reading that the tiny field-emission vavles etched into a silicon chip (which, BTW, are smaller than the mean free path of an electron in air at stmospheric pressure so they don't need to be evacuated) are considerably more radiation hard than conventional transistors on the same chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 18:24:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <008201c45884$8c7fce50$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 22, 4 07:12:58 pm Message-ID: [Microwave ovens] > Actually, I only have a tenuous grasp (for some suitable > value of "tenuous") of how the thing works anyway. I've > only ever possessed one, it currently still seems to I don't have one of these infernal devices, but anyway... > cook as well (or badly) as it ever did so I've had no > cause to examine it in any detail. If it breaks, it will > get looked at (although I suspect, without ever having > checked, that a new megnetron will cost a significant > fraction of the price of a microwave oven). Still, Most of the time it's the door interlock microswitches (one of them is _designed_ to short the mains if the others stick closed), the HV rectifier diode or the HV capacitor that fail. Be _very_ careful if you work on one of these. They are _lethal_. I've warned people here about SMPSUs before, but microwave ovens are much worse. The magnetron runs at a couple of kV and half an amp or so. This will (not might, will) kill you if you touch it. Incidentally, the magnetron block is earthed, and is the anode. The filament (which is a directly heated cathode of course) runs at a high -ve voltage. The voltage across the filament is only a few volts, but it's at a couple of kV wrt earth. Just warning you if you decide to try measuring the filament voltage (in other words, don't do this unless you really know what you are doing!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 17:55:29 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: ...) In-Reply-To: <001f01c4584d$94f49700$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at Jun 22, 4 12:39:30 pm Message-ID: > > > > How much on other kinds of processors? (RISC) > > > > That should be covered in another class: computer architecture. > > I don't see how the RISC vs CISC (vs VLIW vs ...) architectural question has > any chance of being meaningfully put without a reasonable knowledge of the > concepts of assembly language. Ideally teach a simple and restrictive I would agree. I don't see how you can understand how a processor operates, or what different architectures mean, without a knowledge of the concepts of machine code and assembly language. And I discovered years ago (while trying to understand how telephone exchanges work) that it's a lot easier to understand a real example (in this case a real assembly language for a real processor) than some 'simplified' ficticious thing that could never actually work because important details are missing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 18:25:06 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Prime 5320 *possibly* up for grabs (Ascot, UK) In-Reply-To: <001701c45885$4f39cfe0$4d4d2c0a@atx> from "Andy Holt" at Jun 22, 4 07:18:25 pm Message-ID: > > > Apparently there's an unknown PSU fault with it, and attempts by the > > company who own it to get it professionally fixed have failed > > Sounds like a "project" for Tony :-) Alas my machine room is too small to contain another minicomputer.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 17:58:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> from "Bryan Pope" at Jun 22, 4 07:41:28 am Message-ID: > When I took my Computer Electronics Technician course, all of the test were > done open book - but students still failed. > > The problem wasn't that the knowledge wasn't in the books, it was the students > didn't know how to apply what they learned... :( When you changed a > parameter of something it became too different for them. :( THis reminded me of a computer science course I nearly did, but fortunately avoided. I got to see a previous year's exam papers, and there was a question (IIRC) on the 80386/80837 coprocessor interface (those were current devices at the time). The question was trivial to me if I'd had the data sheets. However, I was told that you weren't allowed to take the databooks into the exam, you were expected to learn them (!). Now, nobody ever does that. If I'd been giving that course, I'd have taught (say) the 80386 + support devices, but set questions on the 68020 and its support chips. Of course both Intel and Motorola databooks would be available in the exam. Students would then actually have to think, rather than just repeat that which they'd learnt, and IMHO that's a much more useful skill. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 18:03:26 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Electronics In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Jun 22, 4 07:57:13 am Message-ID: > job using a major microsprocessor [PIC] that DOES NOT HAVE A [accessable] > STACK. There is NO concept of push arguments on the stack and call the It is, of course, possible to simulate a stack on the PIC using the indirect addressing register. I've done it. > 2) If "C" is a pre-requisite, write/purchase/acquire a small x86 emulator > written in "C". It should be small [and probably not need to support the > full x86]. I have seen "the light go on" in a number of "apprentice" > programmers who understand "C" [or at least belive they do] but are confused > by machine language. Seeing the register set as a "struct", seeing > instruction dispatch as a "switch", etc often provides a good mental link. Of course the opposite happend to me. I had no problems understanding pointers in C (They seem entirely natural) becuase I'd already learnt PDP11 machine language (not even assmebly language, machine language, toggled in on the panel switches). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 18:10:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <16600.17513.504000.252377@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 22, 4 10:38:33 am Message-ID: > Run Unix, it has a much simpler ABI. Or use a bare machine -- serial > line output is trivial, certainly once you've initialized the UART. Or use an 8-bit microcontroller-based board with a simple monitor program in ROM. Designing something like that is not a difficult project, and even a novice assembly language programmershould be able to understand 'To print a character on the screen, load the ASCII code into the accumulator and call this address'. I think most of use agree that the important thing is to understand the concepts of machine language. Once you understand one processor it doesn't take that long to understand another. And there's little reason to specifically teach the 80x86 and LuseDoze API, since very little code for those machines is written in assembly language anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 18:15:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language",ReRe: In-Reply-To: <16600.18845.909000.587986@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jun 22, 4 11:00:45 am Message-ID: > into other languages. (3) Not true. A compiler will beat a poor > assembly programmer all the time, and an average one much of the > time. But a programmer can know more about the problem than the > compiler can ever know (because the higher level language can't > express everything there is to say about the problem) so an excellent > programmer can always tie the compiler, and in selected spots can beat > the compiler by a very large margin. It's important to know when to > spend the effort, and that is also part of what marks an excellent > programmer. When programming microcontrollers (and even more when writing microcode for special-purpose hardware), there have been times when, say, I've had to ensure that 2 routines take exactly the same number of machine cycles to execute (maybe I have to insert some NOPs in the shorter one or something). This is something that most compliers can't seem to handle. This is true of electronic CAD tools too. I've had to fiddle with the output of FPGA compliers to get signals routed through the same number of routing switches in the FPGA (OK, we were really pushing those chips...). Humans can often understnad (and remember) things that compilers can't! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 22 18:18:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jun 22, 4 01:19:26 pm Message-ID: > A serious gamer I know says that there are actualy fairly few graphics > engines out there - many game companies buy the right to use existing > ones. This sort of comment worries me. If everyone just accepts what we have now, and nobody bothers to try anything different, then there will never be real progress. -tony From spc at conman.org Tue Jun 22 19:06:57 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 22, 2004 11:40:35 PM Message-ID: <20040623000657.6064110B2C8D@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > I think the reason assembly isn't taught anymore is that industry (or > > academia) don't see it worth the time and effort to. Right now, the most > > Actually, IMHO the fact that it's often not a good idea to code in > assembly language has _nothing_ to do with whether it should be taught (I > think it should). I think it should be too (and I'm the author of the statement you quoted). I remember complaining to a friend of mine (who worked as an admin in the Comp Sci department of my college) about the direction the courses were going (among other things, handing in source code in MS-WORD format). She (and yes, it was a she 8-) said that it was a regular occurence for students to visit the Dean and complain about classes either being too hard or not relevent to their future employment prospects. So of course the courses got easier and drifted more towards a Microsoft-centered view on things. Glad I was no longer there for this. But most "universities" are but self-important trade schools. > In fact what do you think should be taught in schools. Comp Sci seems to be the one subject that is tought backwards---that is, with the latest and greatest instead of having the student work their way through simpler concepts first (which follow historical progress, oddly enough 8-) So yes, students should be first introduced to simple computers that can be easily understood and only programmed in machine language, then assembly and then slightly higher level languages. I'm also firmly believe that programmers should write a structured program in an unstructured langauge, and an object oriented program in a non-OOP language, and so on. That way, the student can at least appreciate what each paradigm brings to programming. That, and having to maintain previously written student programs but that's getting dangerously close to practicality and not enough ivory tower flimflamery. At the very least, the truth that Lisp isn't a high level language at all (it's not---to get even a hope of a useful program out of it, you need to understand the underlying implementation and why (eq 2 2) is not always true, but I digress 8-P -spc (Quick question: what was first? Lisp or FORTRAN?) From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue Jun 22 18:52:09 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: decstation cache in boston Message-ID: <040622195209.ae4b@splab.cas.neu.edu> Just picked up the first load of the vax stuff/decstation stuff in Boston. Mostly storage expansion units, a couple of decstations (mips processors?) a couple ov vt1200 terminal boxes w/o monitors, an old pc. Haven't looked thoroughly, but it appears there was not as much as I expected. Next load is in a couple of weeks, then I'll know more about what I have. Joe Heck From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 22 19:07:59 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00bd01c458b6$25d9a810$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Be _very_ careful if you work on one of these. They are > _lethal_. I have a sort of aversion to even using it: the door seals rely on a 1/4-wavelength trap to prevent (or rather - minimise) microwave leakage. I expect that if you whack the door shut often enough with something solid half in and half out, you may find stuff outside cooks too :-) The chances that I'd want to run something like that with the skins off and the magnetron active is pretty minimal :-) The electric oven is just so much nicer by comparison! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From spc at conman.org Tue Jun 22 19:21:14 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: from "Tony Duell" at Jun 23, 2004 12:18:50 AM Message-ID: <20040623002114.5B49710B2C8D@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > A serious gamer I know says that there are actualy fairly few graphics > > engines out there - many game companies buy the right to use existing > > ones. > > This sort of comment worries me. If everyone just accepts what we have > now, and nobody bothers to try anything different, then there will never > be real progress. But then again, since an off-the-shelf graphics engine *is* available, it frees the company from the expense of writing a graphics engine and allows them to concentrate on other things that can use the engine (perhaps a program to allow architects to take 2D plans, extract them to 3D walkthroughs, changing wall textures and the like). I came across this neat hack the other day. What could be done using a webcam, a ton of MP3s and precanned software to run both? And realistically, what does a webcam have anything to do with MP3s? Not having to worry about details like writing the low lever code to drive the webcam and play the MP3s, it allows a higher level of tinkering (it even includes the use of Lego bricks): http://www.flatfeetpete.com/musicbox/ Now, how many different MP3 decoding libraries are there? Sure, there are plenty of MP3 *players* out there, but decoding libraries? Not many (I suspect there may be one or two). Okay, so we're straying from the topics of this list, but if you search hard enough, you'll still come across people doing innovative stuff with computers even today. -spc (But don't think that the graphic engines are reengineered ... they are, almost constantly ... ) From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 22 19:38:22 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <200406230038.RAA17568@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> I've only ever possessed one [microwave oven], it currently still >> seems to cook as well (or badly) as it ever did so I've had no cause >> to examine it in any detail. > >Same here. > >> If it breaks, it will get looked at (although I suspect, without ever >> having checked, that a new megnetron will cost a significant fraction >> of the price of a microwave oven). Still, there's always the chance >> that the controller or its keypad will give up the ghost. > >That's what happened with my oven. It was bought at a garage sale some >years back, and worked fine for some time (years). Then after a >lightning storm, it started beeping intermittently at odd times when it >shouldn't. After a few days, it occurred to me that if it could beep >when it wasn't suppsoed to, it could turn on the microwaves when it >isn't supposed to. I opened it up and found that the keypad and >control board all culminated in two relays, one to control the fan and >the other the microwave-generator. I checked, and a new board would >cost almost as much as we paid for the oven. So I yanked the whole >thing, wired the fan and magnetron together (I almost always used it on >high anyway, and lower power settings worked by imposing a <100% duty >cycle on the magnetron), and controlled it with an ordinary wall light >switch, on the principle that it's too simple for much to go wrong. ---snip--- Hi Interesting. I know how, just about every part of, a microwave oven works and I wouldn't have done this. I'd have thrown the thing away and bought another at a garage sale. You also have to realize that I'm the kind of fellow that once did a field repair on broken points spring of a car with some cardboard, tape and several springs from some ballpoint pens. It got me home. Also, I doubt that a normal wall light switch is rated for that large of an inductive load. Dwight From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 22 19:42:10 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern References: <20040623000657.6064110B2C8D@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <011801c458ba$ebc2f3c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > (Quick question: what was first? Lisp or FORTRAN?) Lisp 1965 Fortran 1958 both were hot in 1966, but FTN was ahead then too. John A. real quick, 35 minutes From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 22 19:57:48 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern References: <20040623000657.6064110B2C8D@swift.conman.org> <011801c458ba$ebc2f3c0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <017501c458bd$1ab7e8a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 8:42 PM Subject: Re: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern > > (Quick question: what was first? Lisp or FORTRAN?) > > Lisp 1965 Fortran 1958 > both were hot in 1966, but FTN was ahead then too. > > John A. > real quick, 35 minutes > > > > I had to program in Fortran on a mainframe for an engineering class back in 1989-90. I always wondered who the heck still did work with Fortran at that point. Nothing like writing a program that computed multiple chemical reactions in .003 seconds of computer time and then having to wait 20 minutes for a printout to see if it worked or not. I guess its better then tying up a 286 machine for hours doing the same calculations. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 22 20:03:34 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:45 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406230038.RAA17568@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: >So I yanked the whole >thing, wired the fan and magnetron together (I almost always used it on >high anyway, and lower power settings worked by imposing a <100% duty >cycle on the magnetron), and controlled it with an ordinary wall light >switch, on the principle that it's too simple for much to go wrong. A classic example of where a little knowledge can be very dangerous. Definitely NOT "UL Approved" or "CE Marked". Lack of detailed core issues, presents a situation which is potentially dangerous. I would hate to think of the law suit you could face if someone comes over to your house and a fatal error occurs [your solution APPEARS to have bypassed all of the safeties (door, etc.)). Btw: the above is not meant to imply that I have not personally done some boneheaded and dangerous items in my history [like string un-sinulated 3' bananna jack ended cables across a lab to a 220V 400Hz power source. I was only drawing a few milliAmps, but the source was rated in AMPS and not current limited, if someone had brushed the end of a bananna or the hot and returns ever touched....] One thing I REALLY wonder about in this "How We Did It"/"How It is Currently Done"/"How It SHOULD be done" debate... All of the great crafts [stonework, woodwork, even old school electricians] went through an extended apprenticeship under a master. For the 15 years that I worked for a major aerospace company, this is primarily how the engineering department was staffed. Summer/Intercession jobs for college students [even part time if they were at a local school], this would occur for 2-5 years before the person was offered a "Junior Enginnering" position upon graduation [BS level]. Almost every company I know over the past 10 years, has regularly hired people directly out of school with little or no real-world experience and gave them design level responsibilities without any mentoring or monitoring. From rmeenaks at olf.com Tue Jun 22 20:19:42 2004 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Das Transputerbuch Message-ID: <0HZQ00B17MCSH2@mta9.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Hi, I picked this book up via Ebay a while back and just received it. For all you transputer enthusiasts, this is an awesome book. It comes with a IBM-PC transputer board PCB and has tons of schematics for designing your own transputer link board for the Commodore 64/128, Apple II, PC, Amiga and several other computers. The only problem is that its in German :-( but that shouldn't stop you from getting this. I highly recommend this!!! Cheers, Ram From spc at conman.org Tue Jun 22 20:31:33 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <017501c458bd$1ab7e8a0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 22, 2004 08:57:48 PM Message-ID: <20040623013133.DB3EA10B2C8D@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Teo Zenios once stated: > > I had to program in Fortran on a mainframe for an engineering class back in > 1989-90. I always wondered who the heck still did work with Fortran at that > point. Nothing like writing a program that computed multiple chemical > reactions in .003 seconds of computer time and then having to wait 20 > minutes for a printout to see if it worked or not. I guess its better then > tying up a 286 machine for hours doing the same calculations. A friend of mine just finished up his doctorate in Physics, and his dissertation required extensive programming in Fortran. So it's still in use. -spc (Remembers taking Fortan in college ... ) From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 20:41:26 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Have a look at Delphi and Kylix some time. I remember looking at Delphi, and I liked it. Still, Pascal (in whatever form) is a mostly shrinking market. I remember when Turbo Pascal 5.5 was a serious contender in the programming world. I loved it - really cool and well done (especially with some 3rd party company's libraries that I have since forgotten). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Jun 22 20:43:02 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > (I suspect) much of a valve's rad-hardening is due to sheer size, > > > > It is. > > I am not convinced. I remember reading that the tiny field-emission > vavles etched into a silicon chip (which, BTW, are smaller than the mean > free path of an electron in air at stmospheric pressure so they don't > need to be evacuated) are considerably more radiation hard than > conventional transistors on the same chip. > > -tony > I'm not convinced either... I think the problem with semiconductors is that the radiation ionizes (creates carrier pairs) in the semiconductor, in a vacuum tube, there is nothing to ionize (though photo-electric currents are possible) Peter Wallace From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 20:50:44 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <008801c45888$64bde6a0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > I don't work in the field (no pun ...) so I have no idea > how soon it will be before new TV (and radio) transmitters > are built using semis. They have been building them for a while (minor correction to last light's post - 200 kW solid state rigs are now available), and in the past five years, they have actually made them quite reliable (now to the point where they are basically fault tolerant). You can still buy some tube based transmitters, but I doubt they will be on the market in five years. > I just assume that the existing ones > won't be replaced any time soon (since they presumably work) > and that the natural replacement rate is relatively low. Extremely low. The tube rigs being replaced will become the standby units, and the current standby units (many dating to the 1950s) will go out to pasture. > Semiconductors have advantages in many areas (power, speed, > robustness) but it may be that these do not apply (or do > not apply so much) in the high power, high frequency arena. The high power solid state designs use many, many smaller transistors working in parallel. It took time for these to work properly, but now they do. If pieces blow out, due to a lightning strike, they can be hotswapped out, and I Love Lucy still goes out. Minor correction: tubes rule over semiconductors in the robustness arena. It is pretty amazing just how much abuse a tube can take and still work (although perhaps in a weakened state). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 21:03:19 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; -)) In-Reply-To: <86005B68-C424-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: > Does anyone know how "cross talk" was avoided > in these > valves (aka tubes). Just look at a typical duo-triode - each triode has a plate that almost completely envelopes the inner grid and cathode structure. The voltage on one plate has only a tiny, tiny effect on the other plate, as it is not in the path of the electrons, where it would act as a grid. Of course, someone had to break the rules, and one of the early attempts to get around the RCA patents was to use another plate as the control electrode. These tubes, for the most part, didn't work (many were actually scams). Then, just months ago, one of the tube nuts managed to get a 6AX5GT to amplify. For those not in the know, a 6AX5GT is a dual rectifier. Read all about it in last month's issue of *Tube Collector*. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From allain at panix.com Tue Jun 22 21:12:13 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... References: Message-ID: <213e01c458c7$802597a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Strictly speaking, aren't gaseous and solid state devices both semiconductors? They conduct electricity conditionally in both cases. John A. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 21:58:22 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: ello! =)) In-Reply-To: References: <200406221505.LAA12506@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <200406230308.XAA00785@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Grrr... I don't like these messages!!!! :( :( :( > Seconded. Is there any way to block these things at the server? Yes, there is. The sender is in violation of RFC2821, for HELOing with a nonexistent domain ("rafalim" is not a valid top-level domain, so calidad.Rafalim cannot exist). However, few sites are willing to actually check that HELO domains resolve. I've never quite understood why. The usual reason cited is that it will stop legitimate mail; quite aside from the question of how legitimate the mail can be if it comes from a mailer that doesn't know how to speak SMTP, presumably this means that it's thought better to allow broken software to continue appearing fine so it can stay broken rather than expose the brokenness so it will get noticed (and presumably fixed). It's also coming from a host with no rDNS, which is more disputable, but still enough for a lot of places to block. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 22:08:32 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406230309.XAA00798@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> (I suspect) much of a valve's rad-hardening is due to sheer size, >> It is. > I am not convinced. I remember reading that the tiny field-emission > vavles etched into a silicon chip (which, BTW, are smaller than the > mean free path of an electron in air at stmospheric pressure so they > don't need to be evacuated) are considerably more radiation hard than > conventional transistors on the same chip. Without knowing how the size of the miniature valve compares to the size of the conventional transistor you're comparing it to, this does not speak to the question of whether rad-hardening is due to size. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 22 22:11:59 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406222211.59818.pat@computer-refuge.org> David V. Corbin declared on Tuesday 22 June 2004 08:03 pm: > >So I yanked the whole > >thing, wired the fan and magnetron together (I almost always used it > > on high anyway, and lower power settings worked by imposing a <100% > > duty cycle on the magnetron), and controlled it with an ordinary > > wall light switch, on the principle that it's too simple for much to > > go wrong. > > A classic example of where a little knowledge can be very dangerous. > Definitely NOT "UL Approved" or "CE Marked". > > Lack of detailed core issues, presents a situation which is > potentially dangerous. I would hate to think of the law suit you could > face if someone comes over to your house and a fatal error occurs > [your solution APPEARS to have bypassed all of the safeties (door, > etc.)). It's entirely possible that he didn't disable any of the safety measures (and I'd hope he didn't). I did the same thing to a microwave I got for free because the controller didn't work (and I was hoping to build a replacement for it, but I ended up deciding I didn't have the time for it). Of course, instead of a light switch, I got a decent 10A or so snap-action push on/push off switch to switch it on and off. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 22:10:15 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Microwave oven hackery (was Modern Electronics, earlier List charter mods & headcount...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406230323.XAA00869@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> [Tony Duell] >> [failure modes] > Most of the time it's the door interlock microswitches (one of them > is _designed_ to short the mains if the others stick closed), It's been a while since I had it open, but I'm fairly sure my oven's door switches don't work that way. [David V. Corbin] >> So I yanked the whole thing, wired the fan and magnetron together (I >> almost always used it on high anyway, and lower power settings >> worked by imposing a <100% duty cycle on the magnetron), and >> controlled it with an ordinary wall light switch, on the principle >> that it's too simple for much to go wrong. > A classic example of where a little knowledge can be very dangerous. > Definitely NOT "UL Approved" or "CE Marked". Well, no; I never submitted an example for testing, so it can't be. > [your solution APPEARS to have bypassed all of the safeties (door, > etc.)). I'm not sure where you saw such an appearance, but it is incorrect. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid. I didn't mention them, because they were irrelevant to my story, but I did not bypass the safety switches. They were not wired through the PCB I removed; its _only_ connections to the rest of the oven were (a) a power feed to run the electronics, (b) an SPST relay (or something else being used as SPST) to control the fan, and (c) a similar relay to control the magnetron. Oh, and a flexible-printed-cable to the keypad. (The beeper was on the PCB.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 22 22:45:37 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jun 22, 4 09:41:26 pm" Message-ID: <200406230345.UAA13360@floodgap.com> > Still, Pascal (in whatever form) is a mostly shrinking market. I remember > when Turbo Pascal 5.5 was a serious contender in the programming world. I > loved it - really cool and well done (especially with some 3rd party > company's libraries that I have since forgotten). I still do all my DOS programming in TP5.5. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- It's not Camelot, but it's not Cleveland either. -- Boston mayor Kevin White From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 22 22:44:26 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: <200406230345.UAA13360@floodgap.com> References: <200406230345.UAA13360@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20040623034426.GA27436@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 22, 2004 at 08:45:37PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I still do all my DOS programming in TP5.5. The only time I ever did any Pascal programming was under TSX-11/RT-11 on an 11/73. The system existed before I was hired - I just had to tweak an existing (and mostly bug-free, fortunately) program to double the scan rates on an automated ultrasonic inspection tank (filled with industrial diamonds!) and display the higher-resolution results. My experiences were less than pleasant due to limitations in the language (like being forced to open of a file of record type X... we now had two "types" of files, one with 768 nybbles per record, one with 1536 nybbles per record). It made the code ugly, plus the compiler wasn't smart enough to know that I would never open up both types at once, so it wouldn't overlap the record buffers (i.e., in C, I could have allocated one buffer and used all of it or half of it, but Pascal allocates it behind the scenes where you can't get to it). It's one of the reasons I prefer compiled languages where I/O is not embedded into the language structure (C, asm...) But I'm sure lots of us could go on a Pascal rant if prompted... -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 23-Jun-2004 03:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.5 F (-60.3 C) Windchill -116.4 F (-82.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.2 kts Grid 066 Barometer 682.4 mb (10536 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aw288 at osfn.org Tue Jun 22 22:51:41 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" In-Reply-To: <20040623034426.GA27436@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: > But I'm sure lots of us could go on a Pascal rant if prompted... Most people that hate Pascal probably only used standard "official" Pascal. Turbo Pascal is *very* extended - there is not a whole bunch of things it won't do that C will. Don't quote me on examples, as I haven't used TP in seven or eight years. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 22 23:02:51 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... In-Reply-To: <213e01c458c7$802597a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <213e01c458c7$802597a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <200406230404.AAA06057@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Strictly speaking, aren't gaseous and solid state devices both > semiconductors? They conduct electricity conditionally in both > cases. sem?i?con?duc?tor n. 1. Any of various solid crystalline substances, such as germanium or silicon, having electrical conductivity greater than insulators but less than good conductors, and used especially as a base material for computer chips and other electronic devices. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ken at seefried.com Tue Jun 22 23:33:26 2004 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <200406222353.i5MNq3hl071290@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406222353.i5MNq3hl071290@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20040623043326.14852.qmail@mail.seefried.com> From: William Donzelli >A serious gamer I know says that there are actualy fairly few graphics >engines out there - many game companies buy the right to use existing >ones. This is more and more true. Content, all things being equal, is really what pulls a gamer back in, so many shops license an engine to avoid the cost of that development effort. Indeed, id Software (makers of Doom, Quake, Castle Wolfenstien, etc.) makes far more licensing their engine than on their own game. The Unreal engine is also very popular. Oddly enough, no machine language to be seen in either. Ken From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 00:54:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Jun 22, 4 09:03:34 pm Message-ID: > > >So I yanked the whole > >thing, wired the fan and magnetron together (I almost always used it on > >high anyway, and lower power settings worked by imposing a <100% duty > >cycle on the magnetron), and controlled it with an ordinary wall light > >switch, on the principle that it's too simple for much to go wrong. > > A classic example of where a little knowledge can be very dangerous. > Definitely NOT "UL Approved" or "CE Marked". And that has _nothing_ to do with whether or not it's actually safe!. Soory, but I've had enough of things that meet the standard to the letter but are actually dangerous (those darn wall-wart PSUs spring to mind in some cases), whereas properly designed stuff doesn't have the magic letters on it. > > Lack of detailed core issues, presents a situation which is potentially > dangerous. I would hate to think of the law suit you could face if someone > comes over to your house and a fatal error occurs [your solution APPEARS to > have bypassed all of the safeties (door, etc.)). Very unlikely. At least in the UK, the interlocks on the microwave oven door don't operate on inputs to the cotnroller board, they directly switch mains to the magnetron transformer. That way, even if the controller crashes (or the relay sticks, or...), the magnetron won't turn on if the door is open. My view (but I would wan to trace out a schematic to be sure) is that it's perfectly safe to repalce the controller with a suitably-rated switch. However, to tie this into the rest of the thread, I've seen some totally lethal things by people who should know better (i.e. people with EE degrees) and who didn't realise they were dangerous or that there was a better way to do it. I am not talking about the sort of thing we've all done on the workbench (mains on bare tags, etc while testing), I am talking about finished devices with no earth, with earth and neutral connected, with no isolation between mains and output, and so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 00:58:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Microwave oven hackery (was Modern Electronics, In-Reply-To: <200406230323.XAA00869@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 22, 4 11:10:15 pm Message-ID: > > [Tony Duell] > >> [failure modes] > > Most of the time it's the door interlock microswitches (one of them > > is _designed_ to short the mains if the others stick closed), > > It's been a while since I had it open, but I'm fairly sure my oven's > door switches don't work that way. Then it's very unusual. Normally over here there's at least one swtich in series with the mains (live wire) to the transformer, and one across the mains after that one. Normally the first one is all you need (door open, switch open, no microwaves), but the second one shorts out the mains should the first one stick closed. This will blow the fuse, of course. If you have a microwave oven that blows the fuse as you open or close the door it's a fair bet that the switches are misaligned. Some ovens have a current limiting resistor, of about 0.25 ohms (!) in series with the shorting switch. This is often shaped like a fuse and fitted in a normal fuse holder. Needless to say it must not be replaced by a fuse! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 01:10:28 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040623000657.6064110B2C8D@swift.conman.org> from "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" at Jun 22, 4 08:06:57 pm Message-ID: > I think it should be too (and I'm the author of the statement you quoted). > I remember complaining to a friend of mine (who worked as an admin in the > Comp Sci department of my college) about the direction the courses were > going (among other things, handing in source code in MS-WORD format). She > (and yes, it was a she 8-) said that it was a regular occurence for students > to visit the Dean and complain about classes either being too hard or not > relevent to their future employment prospects. I am not convinced at all that univesity courses should necessarily teach the skills needed for today's computing (or anything else for that matter -- and noticed I didn't say they they should not teach said skills, only that they may not). Rather they should teach the fundamentals, so that the latest-n-greatest can be understood, etc. What's currently used in the real world changes with time. The fundamentals rarely do. They increase, more stuff gets added, and yes, sometimes accepted stuff gets shown to be wrong, but I would argue that, say, recursion is the same in any language, and it doesn't really matter which language you used to learn it. Alas amployers don't seem to understand this. They'd rather have somebody who's been on a 2 week course to learn (where is the latest language/OS/FPGA/...) than somebody who'd had 30 years in the game but who's never actually seen . Of course the latter could learn in a couple of days given the manuals/databooks, and would then probably be able to do more with it. > So of course the courses got easier and drifted more towards a > Microsoft-centered view on things. Glad I was no longer there for this. > But most "universities" are but self-important trade schools. Alas they have to get funding, and at least in the UK that's the only way they'll get it. I am not happy about this either. > > > In fact what do you think should be taught in schools. > > Comp Sci seems to be the one subject that is tought backwards---that is, > with the latest and greatest instead of having the student work their way > through simpler concepts first (which follow historical progress, oddly > enough 8-) So yes, students should be first introduced to simple computers > that can be easily understood and only programmed in machine language, then > assembly and then slightly higher level languages. I would agree. While there is probably little point in teaching how to make logic gates using valves (although, actually, the Eccles-Jordan flip-flop is much the same whether you use valves, transistors, FETs, relays, whatever..), there is a lot of point in seeing at least one complete (and simple) processor at gate level. There's probably equal point (although I'll admit I've never done this) in seeing how a compiler or interpretter for a simple programming language is constructed. > -spc (Quick question: what was first? Lisp or FORTRAN?) Fortran I believe. -tony From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 22 22:23:36 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Hokki =) Message-ID: Argh, i don't like the plaintext :) 07077 -- archive password From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed Jun 23 03:33:21 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... Message-ID: >>> (I suspect) much of a valve's rad-hardening is due to sheer size, >> It is. > I remember reading that the tiny field-emission vavles etched into > a silicon chip ... are considerably more radiation hard than > conventional transistors on the same chip. Physical separation of the electrodes helps some as well. Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org Wed Jun 23 04:12:27 2004 From: pdp11_70 at retrobbs.org (Mark Firestone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" References: Message-ID: <010401c45902$3504f320$4601a8c0@ebrius> Indeed. I used to write everything in Turbo Pascal... and I never ran into something I needed C (or another language...) for. I learned Pascal using Oregon Software Pascal II. You had to write your own string libraries... which is a good learning experience if nothing else... ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Donzelli" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 4:51 AM Subject: Re: "Nobody benchmarks anymore" > > But I'm sure lots of us could go on a Pascal rant if prompted... > > Most people that hate Pascal probably only used standard > "official" Pascal. Turbo Pascal is *very* extended - there is not a whole > bunch of things it won't do that C will. "But Schindler is bueno! Senior Burns is El Diablo!" -------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.retrobbs.org Tradewars - telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org BBS - http://bbs.retrobbs.org:8000 IRC - irc.retrobbs.org #main WIKI - http://www.tpoh.org/cgi-bin/tpoh-wiki From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed Jun 23 04:33:46 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: >> wired the fan and magnetron together ... and controlled it with >> an ordinary wall light switch > I wouldn't have done this. I would have used an egg timer switch (one that turns off after a pre set time) but otherwise it sounds a reasonable fix. > I know how, just about every part of, a microwave oven works and Then you'll know why the HV supply is almost invariably voltage doubled AC and not rectified and smothed DC. > Also, I doubt that a normal wall light switch is rated for that > large of an inductive load. A microwave oven is a resistive load and most light switches (in the uk at least) are rated adequately to switch a microwave (1.2KW for a 600W rated oven). Lee. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 22 23:36:17 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: ^_^ mew-mew (-: Message-ID: Looking forward for a response :P ..btw, "84043" is a password for archive From cvisors at gmail.com Wed Jun 23 05:56:20 2004 From: cvisors at gmail.com (Benjamin Gardiner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Net Booting IRIX 3.3.2 (for install) Message-ID: Hi. I have managed to find the tape images for irix 3.3.2 (.tar.gz) but unfortuntely I can't work out how to network boot the Personal IRIS. As far as I can tell I have included the right information in the /etc/ethers file and the /etc/bootptab files.. but when I try and start the net boot up and running, it tells me, couldn't load bootp()192.168.0.2:/video/irix/sa(sash.IP6) any ideas... I have managed to get network booting working on many other platforms but for some reason this is stumping me... Benjamin -- one you lock the target two you bait the line three you slowly spread the net and four you catch the man Front 242 Headhunter From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Jun 23 06:42:14 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> <001901c45852$ec706d10$0500fea9@game> <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <5F2D87EC-C50A-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 23 Jun 2004, at 07:20, Fred Cisin wrote: > I don't like to test memory. > My tests are all open book - they don't need to write anything on their > shirtsleeves. > open notes - they don't need to write anything in the margins of the > book. Couldn't agree more. In "real life" you normally have access to books/manuals/notes when doing things. Last year I did some HP examinations for ASE qualifications for OpenVMS. One of the questions required the SRM commands to set up hard partitions in a multi-CPU Alpha system - this had to be done from memory and naturally I got this wrong :-) Any engineer who sat down to do this on my Alpha box without referring to the manual would more than likely be shown the door - this isn't something that you do frequently enough to do from memory and there are many other examples like this. > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 23 06:52:27 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... References: <213e01c458c7$802597a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <16601.28411.136329.640226@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Allain writes: John> Strictly speaking, aren't gaseous and solid state devices both John> semiconductors? They conduct electricity conditionally in both John> cases. Yes, but that's not what "semiconductor" means. Semiconductor describes the material of which the device is built, not the device action. Semiconductors are things with a small positive bandgap, as opposed to insulators, which have a large bandgap, and conductors, which have none. paul From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Jun 23 07:56:18 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Net Booting IRIX 3.3.2 (for install) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1087995378.7476.6.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> I don't know what your trying to netboot from.. But general experience says a good ethernet sniffer program on that box is VERY useful. (ethereal, tcpdump, snoop, etc..) Just watch the packets, see what the client is asking for, and give it to it. Presuming you've got those files configured correctly.. My first two guesses would be: A) You have the respective daemons running? B) TFTPD running? If the "netboot server" is a Linux box, there's also some ephemeral ports voodoo you need to do. (From the Linux/MIPS FAQ: The kernel download from the TFTP server stops and times out. This may happen if the TFTP server is using a local port number of 32768 or higher which usually happens if the TFTP server is running Linux 2.3 or higher. This problem may be circumvented by doing a "echo 2048 32767 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_local_port_range" on the server. ) I managed to figure out how to netboot an Indy w/ Irix 6.5 from a linux box w/ a reasonable amount of time spent in ethereal. (I suppose I could of read the manuals, but where's the fun in that? ) David On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 06:56, Benjamin Gardiner wrote: > Hi. > > I have managed to find the tape images for irix 3.3.2 (.tar.gz) but > unfortuntely I can't work out how to network boot the Personal IRIS. > > As far as I can tell I have included the right information in the > /etc/ethers file and the /etc/bootptab files.. > > but when I try and start the net boot up and running, it tells me, > > couldn't load bootp()192.168.0.2:/video/irix/sa(sash.IP6) > > any ideas... I have managed to get network booting working on many > other platforms but for some reason this is stumping me... > > Benjamin From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 10:20:05 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 22:58, Tony Duell wrote: > I got to see a previous year's exam papers, and there was a question > (IIRC) on the 80386/80837 coprocessor interface (those were current > devices at the time). The question was trivial to me if I'd had the data > sheets. > > However, I was told that you weren't allowed to take the databooks into > the exam, you were expected to learn them (!). Now, nobody ever does that. I seem to recall for my degree anything requiring databooks would be done as coursework, not as an exam in an exam hall - which seems the logical approach. We used eurocard-based 68000 machines for learning assembly, and I can't for the life of me remember who the darn things were made by. I was lucky in that I'd done quite a bit of x86 assembly beforehand, so the 68k stuff was a breeze. I'm not sure if I agree with the current trend toward open book exams - yes, in the real world, chances are you will have reference material handy. But the current attitude of most people I've known who have taken such exams is that they don't need to actually know anything, because they can just bluff their way through it in an exam by reading the book and get sufficient marks to pass. Then these people go out into the real world and they can't think for shit - as soon as an oddball problem hits them they're just incapable of working it through to a solution as they're too used to just being able to read the answer in a book right when they need it. I know I'm perhaps a little younger than the average age of people on this list, but I feel I was one of the last generation who was lucky enough to do an old-style degree course. We had access to real (and diverse) systems rather than things being emulated, and we were given a lot of grounding theory in the way things actually worked, and more importantly we weren't given an easy ride - no such thing as an open book exam then, no whizzy graphical tools to do half the work for us etc. I'm amazed at how often the fundamentals that we were taught have helped me work some problem out - and I've lost track of how many of the later generations of graduates I've had to deal with who just can't think properly because all they've been taught is how to push a mouse around a screen. Interesting the point somone made about the games industry stagnating because there's no innovation any more. I think that's true of the whole industry - the current generation of students are rarely taught the basics and how to drive a GUI. They get good pass marks for doing this, the university's performance figures look good, and that's what the industry on the surface of things think they want. I do wonder quite where things will be in ten years when there's almost nobody left who can actually think for themselves though... Anyway, rant over :-) cheers Jules From kth at srv.net Wed Jun 23 10:42:25 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040622151533.M49817@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040622151533.M49817@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40D9A4E1.30804@srv.net> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > >>How about 6502 or 6809 stuff? :) >> >> > >I'm going to teach them how to make programs that run on >the machines that are there. > >But I intend to also show them a little bit about other processors, >including the lack of symmetry of the 80x86, what kinds of >differences to expect, different mnemonics, different architectures, >quirks, etc. > > Give them a copy of simh, and have them write the same program for all the available simulators included... Well, you might actually be able to show them the same simple program for the IBM-1401, PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, ... to get an idea of the different architectures. Something simple, like calculating a polynomial (VAX = 1 instruction, PDP-8=aaak! You expect me to type that in?). simh has a lot of features that might make it worth using. You can enter programs from the command line, single step through them, examine registers, etc. The simulators are complete enough to run operating systems (where available). It is also available in Unix, and windows versions. It doesn't have a 80x86 simulator yet. >My goal for the semester is that they will be able to create >simple working programs, be able to start on larger projects, >and have a clue how to deal with other different situations. > >Teaching them how to learn assembly language is far more important >than the mastery of a given one. > >Surely somebody will be offended by that approach. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > From aek at spies.com Wed Jun 23 10:45:08 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Nobody teaches assembly language Message-ID: <200406231545.i5NFj8tg006122@spies.com> > It doesn't have a 80x86 simulator yet. MESS would be suitable for the micros, and x86. It also has a simulation for the TI 990/10, which SIMH doesn't have. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 10:51:32 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <5F2D87EC-C50A-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> References: <200406221141.HAA01790@wordstock.com> <001901c45852$ec706d10$0500fea9@game> <20040622141535.G42959@newshell.lmi.net> <5F2D87EC-C50A-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <200406231557.LAA08093@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I don't like to test memory. >> My tests are all open book [...] open notes [...] > Couldn't agree more. In "real life" you normally have access to > books/manuals/notes when doing things. Me too. I taught Operating Systems one semester at McGill, and my exam was open-everything; I did my best to design the exam so it required thought and awareness of principles rather than regurgitation of memorized information. I even included a joke (clearly marked as zero points, to be sure) as the last question on the final. (The course was unusual in some other ways, too.) The students seemed to split into two camps: one was "whoa, man, this is strange and different, I don't like it" and the other was "whoa, man, this is new and different, give me more". Practically nobody seemed to feel any other way about it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 10:59:29 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I'm not sure if I agree with the current trend toward open book exams > - yes, in the real world, chances are you will have reference > material handy. But the current attitude of most people I've known > who have taken such exams is that they don't need to actually know > anything, because they can just bluff their way through it in an exam > by reading the book and get sufficient marks to pass. Well, when I did my exam, yes, someone probably could pass the exam coming into it knowing nothing but armed with books - but it would take something like two to ten times the time allotted for the exam, and I tried to ensure it would require actually learning things from the books in the process. Besides, someone who could learn the relevant stuff fast enough to pass that way does effectively know the material and thus should pass. Wasn't someone just saying that it's more important to know how to pick stuff up than to have goop memorized? I went looking for the source to the exam (I wrote it in TeX) but couldn't find it offhand. If I find it I'll make it available somewhere and post a pointer. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 23 11:28:12 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <002401c4593f$1425a680$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jules Richardson" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:20 AM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > Interesting the point somone made about the games industry stagnating > because there's no innovation any more. I think that's true of the whole > industry - the current generation of students are rarely taught the > basics and how to drive a GUI. They get good pass marks for doing this, > the university's performance figures look good, and that's what the > industry on the surface of things think they want. I do wonder quite > where things will be in ten years when there's almost nobody left who > can actually think for themselves though... > > Anyway, rant over :-) > > cheers > > Jules > The games industry is stagnating for the same reason the movie industry is, it just costs too much money to make the product anymore so everybody tries to copy anything that recently sold well. The only people taking chances are the ones with a insignificant budget, which might work for some movies but definatly doesnt work for games where eyecandy is what sells. I bet that most people can think for themselves, but there is nothing in it for them if they do. I have seen quite a few people do the bare minimum and as long as they don't piss off the manager they keep their jobs. People who try to inovate are the ones who get into the most trouble and if they fail they usualy get the boot. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Wed Jun 23 11:31:21 2004 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Richard Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Info on Magnesys 720KB card wanted Message-ID: Hello all, I recently acquired a Magnesys 720KB card (eBay number 5100117037 for some pictures). This is an 8-bit ISA card, copyright 1988 so it's on-topic :-). It is labeled "Magnesys Assy. 506-402 (c) 1988 Made in U.S.A. Drive Card". It has 2 EPROMS, labeled "890-332 Rev. D" and "890-364 Rev. B". It also has an LED, four jumpers, and three sets of switches (a bank of 10, a bank of 6 and a a bank of 4). The only information I could find w/ Google was that it is a bubble-memory card used to emulate a 720KB Disk Drive, and was used for a military application. If anyone has manuals, drivers, jumper/switch settings, etc. Could you please let me know what I could do to get a copy? Thanks! Rich B. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 23 11:45:25 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <002401c4593f$1425a680$0500fea9@game> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <002401c4593f$1425a680$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <40D9B3A5.1050902@mdrconsult.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jules Richardson" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:20 AM > Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > > > >>Interesting the point somone made about the games industry stagnating >>because there's no innovation any more. I think that's true of the whole >>industry - the current generation of students are rarely taught the >>basics and how to drive a GUI. They get good pass marks for doing this, >>the university's performance figures look good, and that's what the >>industry on the surface of things think they want. I do wonder quite >>where things will be in ten years when there's almost nobody left who >>can actually think for themselves though... >> >>Anyway, rant over :-) >> >>cheers >> >>Jules >> > > > The games industry is stagnating for the same reason the movie industry is, > it just costs too much money to make the product anymore so everybody tries > to copy anything that recently sold well. The only people taking chances are > the ones with a insignificant budget, which might work for some movies but > definatly doesnt work for games where eyecandy is what sells. There's another huge problem with game development. A guy I work with in AZ had a new game engine and story plot on the boards, had tested it running in Linux, and were ready to port to mainstream platforms. His group found that to gain access to what they needed to run on XBox and/or Windows, they had to sign developer contracts that would effectively prohibit sale of their game on any other platform, and gave Microsoft considerable control over pricing, target market, and even content and development of the game itself. Michael told me that the only upside to the MS terms was that Sony's terms were much *worse*. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 23 11:55:50 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: TESTING; Was Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <002401c4593f$1425a680$0500fea9@game> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <002401c4593f$1425a680$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <40D9B616.30001@mdrconsult.com> Testing MUA weirdness, please forgive. Doc From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 23 12:39:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <002401c4593f$1425a680$0500fea9@game> <40D9B3A5.1050902@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <004701c45948$f8cd54a0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doc Shipley" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 12:45 PM Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; . > > There's another huge problem with game development. A guy I work > with in AZ had a new game engine and story plot on the boards, had > tested it running in Linux, and were ready to port to mainstream > platforms. His group found that to gain access to what they needed to > run on XBox and/or Windows, they had to sign developer contracts that > would effectively prohibit sale of their game on any other platform, and > gave Microsoft considerable control over pricing, target market, and > even content and development of the game itself. > > Michael told me that the only upside to the MS terms was that Sony's > terms were much *worse*. > > > Doc > I think all the console makers try to get games as exclusives, Nintendo pioneered this trick over 10 years ago. Console makers have final say on what gets sold, so developers cant flood the market with crap like the games that killed the Atari 2600. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Wed Jun 23 12:51:52 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:45:25 CDT." <40D9B3A5.1050902@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200406231751.SAA01551@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, Doc Shipley said; > There's another huge problem with game development. A guy I work > with in AZ had a new game engine and story plot on the boards, had > tested it running in Linux, and were ready to port to mainstream > platforms. His group found that to gain access to what they needed to > run on XBox and/or Windows, they had to sign developer contracts that > would effectively prohibit sale of their game on any other platform, and > gave Microsoft considerable control over pricing, target market, and > even content and development of the game itself. > > Michael told me that the only upside to the MS terms was that Sony's > terms were much *worse*. My nephew tests games for Sony, and among other things games have to go through months and months of testing by Sony to get the developer to reduce the number of bugs down to a reasonable number before the developer is allowed to sell it as a Playstation game. You can imagine how much that all costs, Sony charge huge bucks for doing the testing! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From KParker at workcover.com Tue Jun 22 18:36:40 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623620FD1@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> That's disappointing as I've got one too. Given that its MCA I thought it would be at a premium and therefore quite valuable. The one I've got is in an IBM PS2 Model 60 but when I boot it I get some gobbledy-gook on screen which is not very promising - if anyone has any clues I'd be grateful. I thought of disabling the HD and trying to boot from a floppy to see if it was just the HD that's cactus. Ahhhh such is life! +++++++++++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 e: webmaster@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com +++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of chris Sent: Tuesday, 22 June 2004 5:45 AM To: Classic Computer Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA I've got a 3com EtherLink III MCA card available if anyone wants it. It failed to sell on ebay, so just cover postage costs (plus paypal fees if you pay me that way) and its yours. Anyone want it? If you want to view it, see below: the ad lists as $3.85 for shipping via Priority Mail. That is my prefered method to ship things like this, because I get free boxes. If you want some other method or are out of the USA and can't use that method, I'm open to changing it. If I don't get a taker, its heading to the trash... so hopefully someone will want it. (I no longer have any MCA bus hardware, so it is useless to me) -chris ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From mbg at TheWorld.com Tue Jun 22 21:13:01 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT Message-ID: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> I haven't seen much PDP-11 stuff at the MIT Flea. This past sunday, there was a robin and a rainbow, but no other systems that I saw. There were also some vendors who had accessories for various DEC laptops... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From robert at irrelevant.com Wed Jun 23 04:31:21 2004 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: small drives spotted Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040623102025.050323f0@albert> I know some of you need small-ish drives for various systems. I spotted these on eBid so thought I'd mention them as they would probably get missed by eBay browsers.. 40MB IDE Miniscribe - ?0.05 !! http://sumo.ebid.co.uk/perl/objects/auction.cgi?auction=1083534025-3951-0&mo=auction 1GB SCSI Compaq - (res not met, but buy-now is ?10) http://wrestler.ebid.co.uk/perl/objects/auction.cgi?auction=1084462930-27087-1&mo=auction Pair of 5.25" SCSI 1Gb Maxtors - ?1.00 seller wants collection (Kent, England) http://wrestler.ebid.co.uk/perl/objects/auction.cgi?auction=1081506050-48180-0&mo=auction From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Jun 23 05:18:07 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E and PDP-8/M diff? In-Reply-To: <10406220807.ZM20122@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20040620041310.ZBNH6980.imf24aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> <5B0698BE-C2E2-11D8-9A4B-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> <40D72339.9070105@hp.com> <10406220807.ZM20122@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> Just a quick one: Apart from the chassis, the number of backplanes, and power supply, are the 8/E and 8/M essentially the same? Can boards/modules be swapped? -- /wai-sun From rosellino at tin.it Wed Jun 23 13:21:05 2004 From: rosellino at tin.it (Antonio Rosellini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Available: Compaq Deskpro 386/20e Manuals/Diskette Message-ID: <000001c4594e$dc08c560$5afcabd4@antonio> I need manual, disdette for compaq 386/20 send me conitions and price please. rosellini@ieee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 13:22:36 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <40D9A4E1.30804@srv.net> Message-ID: <003601c4594f$0efe45d0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Well, you might actually be able to show them the same simple > program for the IBM-1401, PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, ... to > get an idea of the different architectures. Something simple, > like calculating a polynomial (VAX = 1 instruction, > PDP-8=aaak! You expect me to type that in?). Presumably for stage two you have them explain why the POLYx instructions (which are in microcode in the early VAXen) were subsetted out later on. If I get some time to build that SBC6120 I may have to have a go at learning some PDP-8 assembler. (I know I could use a simulator, but I'd prefer to use this as an incentive to build something!) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Jun 23 13:43:52 2004 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E and PDP-8/M diff? In-Reply-To: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> Message-ID: <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> The boards can be swapped. The only exception being the front panel board. An 8/E front panel cannot be placed into a 8/M or 8/F, since the necessary wires from the power supply that drive the incandescent panel lamps is not present. However, the front panel board from a 8/M or 8/F can be placed into a 8/E if desired (Its a quick way to upgrade a 8/E to use LED's instead of incandescent lamps). If you're planning to gut an 8/M, I would be interested in obtaining an empty chassis. -Lawrence LeMay > Just a quick one: > Apart from the chassis, the number of backplanes, and power supply, are > the 8/E and 8/M essentially the same? > > Can boards/modules be swapped? > > -- > /wai-sun > From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 14:12:14 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:46 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <004701c45948$f8cd54a0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 23, 2004 01:39:01 PM Message-ID: <20040623191214.318F010B2C8E@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Teo Zenios once stated: > > > I think all the console makers try to get games as exclusives, Nintendo > pioneered this trick over 10 years ago. > Console makers have final say on what gets sold, so developers cant flood > the market with crap like the games that killed the Atari 2600. And here I thought that the Atari 2600 couldn't really compete with the next generation console gaming units like the Coleco Vision. -spc (At least you had a variety of genres on the 2600 ... ) From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Wed Jun 23 14:17:31 2004 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA Message-ID: <1ad.2544417d.2e0b314b@aol.com> >That's disappointing as I've got one too. Given that its MCA I thought it would be at >a premium and therefore quite valuable. >The one I've got is in an IBM PS2 Model 60 but when I boot it I get some gobbledy->gook on screen which is not very promising - if anyone has any clues I'd be >grateful. I thought of disabling the HD and trying to boot from a floppy to see if it >was just the HD that's cactus. MCA stuff is pretty common still if you know where to look. Plenty of cheap stuff on ebay all the time. I've got loads of goodies meself. What's harder to find is the interesting stuff like the MCA servers and upgrade parts/boards. As for the mod60 problems, I'm sure it can be fixed. They seldom go bad. You might be getting a password skeleton key prompt, or a numerical POST code. If all else fails, remove the battery for a while, take out all adaptors except for the hard drive one, build a reference disk and then try to boot from it. After you build a ref disk, don't let Win9x read it as it messes it up and the PS/2 wont boot from it. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 14:48:08 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <40D9A4E1.30804@srv.net> References: <20040622151533.M49817@newshell.lmi.net> <40D9A4E1.30804@srv.net> Message-ID: <20040623124523.J70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Kevin Handy wrote: > Give them a copy of simh, and have them write the same > program for all the available simulators included... That would be GREAT for a second semester. The semester is 16 - 18 weeks long, with 3 hours of lecture per week. They have NO prior assembly language, and some won't really have the prerequisite od "any other programming language". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Wed Jun 23 14:51:47 2004 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> der Mouse wrote: > Besides, someone who could learn the relevant stuff fast enough to pass > that way does effectively know the material and thus should pass. > Wasn't someone just saying that it's more important to know how to pick > stuff up than to have goop memorized? I would agree generally there. However, I'd also say it's important to have some stuff memorised, so you don't end up referring to books for trivial problems. Dan From kth at srv.net Wed Jun 23 15:16:31 2004 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: 21+ Years of DDJ Indexed In-Reply-To: <000b01c458b1$9aa496f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> References: <000b01c458b1$9aa496f0$0b01a8c0@Mike> Message-ID: <40D9E51F.4010001@srv.net> Michael Nadeau wrote: >Does he have the blessing of CMP (DDJ's current owner and copyright holder)? >CMP is generous about granting permission for using material from its >archives, but this is much larger than the usual request. I might be able to >get the contact info for the appropriate permissions person if anyone wants >to pursue it. > >In related news, DDJ itself is going through a rough patch at the moment--ad >sales are 57% down from last year. > >--Mike > > Probably because most of their articles are tied to Windows, and there are plenty of other Windows magazines out there to advertise in. There's just so many "MFC wrapper class for ..." articles that you can read before it becomes quite boring, expecially if you don't program for Windows. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 23 15:07:44 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: MDS-225 available in France Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040623160744.007c2540@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I've been contacted by someone in France that has an Intel MDS-225 that he wants to sell. Is anyone in that area intersted? I'm getting the detail now. I would be intersted but I'm much too far away to consider it. Joe From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 15:47:17 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> Message-ID: <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Dan Kolb wrote: > I would agree generally there. However, I'd also say it's important to > have some stuff memorised, so you don't end up referring to books for > trivial problems. OTOH, I sometimes tell them, "If you really feel a need to cram and memorize, then memorize the index of the book, so that you can find things faster." :-) From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 23 16:00:14 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40D9EF5E.8080307@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Dan Kolb wrote: > >>I would agree generally there. However, I'd also say it's important to >>have some stuff memorised, so you don't end up referring to books for >>trivial problems. > > > OTOH, I sometimes tell them, "If you really feel a need to cram and > memorize, then memorize the index of the book, so that you can find > things faster." :-) Gee, Fred, were you hiding in my class last week? The afternoon before the RHCE exam I told 'em almost exactly the same thing: "If you feel like you *have* to study tonight, study the table of contents in the 'RedHat Administrators' Guide'." So, what's the percentage of your students that choke on exams? I'd guess that half of the failing candidates I've tested knew the material, but lost their little minds when I wrote the start time on the board. That bothers me a lot. I can teach them Linux, but I can't teach them calm. Doc From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 23 16:10:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> <40D9EF5E.8080307@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <16601.61865.801080.43136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Doc" == Doc Shipley writes: Doc> .... That bothers me a lot. I can teach them Doc> Linux, but I can't teach them calm. Take them skydiving... that teaches calm... :-) paul, D-20853 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 16:32:04 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040623135335.I70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > I am not convinced at all that univesity courses should necessarily teach > the skills needed for today's computing (or anything else for that matter > -- and noticed I didn't say they they should not teach said skills, only > that they may not). Rather they should teach the fundamentals, so that > the latest-n-greatest can be understood, etc. What's currently used in > the real world changes with time. The fundamentals rarely do. They > increase, more stuff gets added, and yes, sometimes accepted stuff gets > shown to be wrong, but I would argue that, say, recursion is the same in > any language, and it doesn't really matter which language you used to > learn it. There needs to be a balance. The students want "practical" training. They want stuff that they can apply immediately, and they want employability. Meanwhile, we want to teach them "fundamentals". Therefore, the best way to walk that narrow line, is to teach theory, principles, and fundamentals USING real world practical tools. For example, We DO NOT "teach Visual C++". We DO NOT have a "Visual C++ course". We teach C++; we do it using Visual C++. I'm sure glad that I teach C, not C++! I make them do at least one program using a command line compiler (DeSmet "Personal C"), one program using a simple integrated development environment (Turbo C), and then I let them use ANY compiler or platform that they want to use, even Visual C++. I intend to try to teach the fundamentals, principles, and theory of assembly language. But I am going to do it using 80x86, as a concession to what the students want. Yes, it would be "better", but not what the students want, to teach it with a better processor, whether real or imaginary, but I am there to help the students learn what they want to learn. (and try to sneak in a bit of more general knowledge) > Alas amployers don't seem to understand this. They'd rather have somebody > who's been on a 2 week course to learn (where is the latest > language/OS/FPGA/...) than somebody who'd had 30 years in the game but > who's never actually seen . Of course the latter could learn > in a couple of days given the manuals/databooks, and would then probably > be able to do more with it. That's right. We have a periodic advisory committee, that is made up mostly of community employers. We had one guy who wanted us to drop all of our programming classes, and replace them with four semesters of "Power-Builder". My response to him was "inappropriate". > > -spc (Quick question: what was first? Lisp or FORTRAN?) FORTRAN. Q: Current C compilers are written in C. What was the FIRST C compiler written in? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 16:42:36 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <40D9EF5E.8080307@mdrconsult.com> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> <40D9EF5E.8080307@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <20040623143704.F70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Doc Shipley wrote: > Gee, Fred, were you hiding in my class last week? > The afternoon before the RHCE exam I told 'em almost exactly the same > thing: > "If you feel like you *have* to study tonight, study the table of > contents in the 'RedHat Administrators' Guide'." > So, what's the percentage of your students that choke on exams? I'd > guess that half of the failing candidates I've tested knew the material, > but lost their little minds when I wrote the start time on the board. > That bothers me a lot. I can teach them Linux, but I can't teach them calm. A lot of students panic. "open book" helps a little leaving the room helps a little They won't let me serve alcohol on campus. I write "Don't Panic!" on the board. But those who need that advice most, won't listen to it. About 5 minutes before the end, I erase the "Don't". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 23 16:50:31 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Message-ID: <0406232150.AA29587@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Fred Cisin wrote: > Q: Current C compilers are written in C. > What was the FIRST C compiler written in? Assembly (PDP-11). MS From aek at spies.com Wed Jun 23 16:54:04 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Message-ID: <200406232154.i5NLs4a2020202@spies.com> Q: Current C compilers are written in C. What was the FIRST C compiler written in? -- PDP-11 assembly language. You can look at the sources in the early Unix archives, or.... -- From: Dennis Ritchie Newsgroups: comp.lang.c,comp.std.c,alt.folklore.computers Subject: A primeval C compiler Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 06:43:22 +0100 Organization: Bell Labs, Lucent Technologies Lines: 12 Message-ID: <379FE9FA.7D08@bell-labs.com> Reply-To: dmr@bell-labs.com NNTP-Posting-Host: cebu.cs.bell-labs.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) Xref: news.apple.com comp.lang.c:83397 comp.std.c:9285 alt.folklore.computers:33793 I finally prepared another fossil for museum exhibition: from DECtapes written in 1972-73, there are exhumed C compilers (including source) to show what the very early stages of the language were like. This was a highly transitional stage; for example, the earlier one anticipates a "long" type, but doesn't have struct; the 6-months-later compiler implements struct, but reuses long's slot in the type table. http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr/primevalC.html Dennis From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 23 16:59:18 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: small drives spotted References: <6.1.1.1.0.20040623102025.050323f0@albert> Message-ID: <005301c4596d$55572ba0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > I know some of you need small-ish drives for various systems. If anyone on the list wants small IDE, feel free to contact me offline. John A. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 17:06:59 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm not sure if I agree with the current trend toward open book exams - > yes, in the real world, chances are you will have reference material > handy. But the current attitude of most people I've known who have taken > such exams is that they don't need to actually know anything, because > they can just bluff their way through it in an exam by reading the book > and get sufficient marks to pass. If a closed-book exam is offered open-book, then that is the case. A test that is all about memorization is useless in an open book format. The exam needs to be different according to the format. An open book test must be written to test application of knowledge instead of memorization. for example: How many bits are used for a single precision IEEE floating point number? is only appropriate for closed-book int N = 10; while (N--) printf("&d\n",N); What are the first and last numbers displayed? is appropriate for open-book. > Then these people go out into the real world and they can't think for > shit - as soon as an oddball problem hits them they're just incapable of > working it through to a solution as they're too used to just being able > to read the answer in a book right when they need it. Then these people go out into the real world and they can't think for shit - as soon as an oddball problem hits them they're just incapable of working it through to a solution as they've forgotten everything that they memorized. > I know I'm perhaps a little younger than the average age of people on > this list, but I feel I was one of the last generation who was lucky > enough to do an old-style degree course. We had access to real (and > diverse) systems rather than things being emulated, and we were given a > lot of grounding theory in the way things actually worked, and more > importantly we weren't given an easy ride - no such thing as an open > book exam then, no whizzy graphical tools to do half the work for us > etc. In my day, we didn't have the option of using a calculator. Did that help or hurt? Are the aspects that it helped or hurt relevant to what is being tested? In my day, we were to supply our own scratch paper for standardized tests, including graph paper. We were not allowed to bring in sliderules, but there was no rule against making one during the test! OTOH, in the UC Berkeley School of Information Management and Systems, I was the first student ever to use a word processor for the PhD written exams. I managed to convince them that grading penmanship was no longer valid. > I'm amazed at how often the fundamentals that we were taught have helped > me work some problem out - and I've lost track of how many of the later > generations of graduates I've had to deal with who just can't think > properly because all they've been taught is how to push a mouse around a > screen. How many current students can find a square root without a sqrt or x^y key on a calculator? How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? I even get some who have been TAUGHT that pi is EXACTLY 22/7. (I got in major trouble when I was 10 years old for telling the teacher that pi was not 22/7) > industry on the surface of things think they want. I do wonder quite > where things will be in ten years when there's almost nobody left who > can actually think for themselves though... > Anyway, rant over :-) mine is just beginning. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 17:14:49 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <0406232150.AA29587@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406232150.AA29587@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040623151040.O70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > > Q: Current C compilers are written in C. > > What was the FIRST C compiler written in? > > Assembly (PDP-11). That's right! (it was a rhetorical question) After explaining that version N of a compiler is often created using version N-1, and "proofed" in version N, I use that to show that there are not turtles all the way down. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 17:14:50 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005601c4596f$80a90920$5b01a8c0@athlon> > > I just assume that the existing ones > > won't be replaced any time soon (since they presumably > work) and that > > the natural replacement rate is relatively low. > > Extremely low. The tube rigs being replaced will become the > standby units, and the current standby units (many dating to > the 1950s) will go out to > pasture. The people I know who are into telephones seem to let it get out of control and start to try to build major exchanges in the back yard. I guess that there will soon be another breed of collector with large transmitter masts and glowing valves in the back garden :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 16:51:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <5F2D87EC-C50A-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jun 23, 4 09:42:14 pm Message-ID: > > I don't like to test memory. > > My tests are all open book - they don't need to write anything on their > > shirtsleeves. > > open notes - they don't need to write anything in the margins of the > > book. > > Couldn't agree more. In "real life" you normally have access to I'll go along with this too. > wrong :-) Any engineer who sat down to do this on my Alpha box > without referring to the manual would more than likely be shown the > door - this isn't Any designer or programmer who works without the appriate manuals or databooks is going to get things wrong, and I wouldn't trust an engineer who _didn't_ have said books open alongside him. Certainly when I'm programming I have K&R (or similar) to hand, when I'm doing electronic design I have the appopriate data books no the bench. Of course there are things you remember -- the pinout of the 74x00, 74x74, etc is burned into my brain. Not because I sat down and learnt said pinouts, but because I've used those chips so often that I remember them, But I couldn't give you the pinout of some of the more obscure TTL chips, or of most microprocessors, or... I look those up. I don't think this makes me any less of a designer either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 16:58:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 23, 4 03:20:05 pm Message-ID: > I'm not sure if I agree with the current trend toward open book exams - > yes, in the real world, chances are you will have reference material > handy. But the current attitude of most people I've known who have taken > such exams is that they don't need to actually know anything, because > they can just bluff their way through it in an exam by reading the book > and get sufficient marks to pass. This, alas, simply shows that the examiners are clueless. It's perfectly possible to produce questions that can't be answered by simply looking things up in books. Yes the books will be useful, but if you're clueless, you'll not be able to do the exam. > > Then these people go out into the real world and they can't think for > shit - as soon as an oddball problem hits them they're just incapable of > working it through to a solution as they're too used to just being able > to read the answer in a book right when they need it. This proves that it's possible to distinguish the clueful from the clueless even if they both have the appropriate books :-) > I'm amazed at how often the fundamentals that we were taught have helped > me work some problem out - and I've lost track of how many of the later > generations of graduates I've had to deal with who just can't think So, alas, have I :-(. These people have no 'feel' for the subject, they'll produce 'solutions' that either can't work at all, or which are totally impractical (ridiculously long run times, ridiculously close-tolerance components, etc). > properly because all they've been taught is how to push a mouse around a > screen. > > Interesting the point somone made about the games industry stagnating > because there's no innovation any more. I think that's true of the whole > industry - the current generation of students are rarely taught the > basics and how to drive a GUI. They get good pass marks for doing this, I suspect that was my commment, and yes I agree with you. Progress does not come by simply using that which is used now. It comes from understanding that which is used, along with that which came before, (and all the way back to the fundamentals) and then modifying it in some way. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 17:02:49 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <003601c4594f$0efe45d0$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 23, 4 07:22:36 pm Message-ID: > > > Well, you might actually be able to show them the same simple > > program for the IBM-1401, PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, ... to > > get an idea of the different architectures. Something simple, > > like calculating a polynomial (VAX = 1 instruction, > > PDP-8=aaak! You expect me to type that in?). > > Presumably for stage two you have them explain > why the POLYx instructions (which are in microcode > in the early VAXen) were subsetted out later on. And presumably stage 3 is to grab a VAX11/7xx printset, figure out the microinstruction word, then disassemble the appropriate bit of the microocde and understand how it works. Actually, I've never done this for VAX microcode, I did comment the entire HP98x0 calculator CPU micorocode source, though (256 locations of 28 bits each). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 16:46:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from "Davison, Lee" at Jun 23, 4 10:33:46 am Message-ID: > > I know how, just about every part of, a microwave oven works and > > Then you'll know why the HV supply is almost invariably voltage > doubled AC and not rectified and smothed DC. I know it is (the magnetron itself is one of the diodes in the doubler, along with one capacitor and a semiconductor diode), but I don't actually know _why_. Presumably it's to simplify the insulation of the transformer or something. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 17:24:06 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <005801c45970$cbe68d30$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I seem to recall for my degree anything requiring databooks would be > done as coursework, not as an exam in an exam hall - which seems the > logical approach. Nah. Course work was invented for wimps who could not cope with the fact that the worth of their entire lives up to that point was going to be measured in three days or so :-) > handy. But the current attitude of most people I've known who > have taken such exams is that they don't need to actually > know anything, because they can just bluff their way through > it in an exam by reading the book > and get sufficient marks to pass. It is pretty easy to set questions that are not specifically in the book(s), although they are easy to tackle if you underestand what is in the books. Real life seems to be capable of this on a daily basis! > I'm amazed at how often the fundamentals that we were taught > have helped > me work some problem out Absolutely. I'd be lost without addition and multiplication. Subtraction is pretty useful but division just seems to be an optimisation that I can often get by without :-) I'm trying to think of the last time I needed any vector calculus or Cachy-Riemann or even simple control theory. There's the occasional would-this- other-algorithm-be-any-better, but not often. > industry on the surface of things think they want. I do wonder quite > where things will be in ten years when there's almost nobody left who > can actually think for themselves though... As with all these things we just look back in history and see how things panned out before. Obviously the generation before me were pretty useless about predicting the future, since we were clearly an improvement on them; but I feel we got it right about your lot :-) :-) Actually, I was going to point out that the world has been in terminal decline for all of recorded history, but I'm afraid the pyramids may crop up again :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From auryn at gci-net.com Wed Jun 23 17:23:30 2004 From: auryn at gci-net.com (auryn@gci-net.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:06:59 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > I know I'm perhaps a little younger than the average > age of people on > > this list, but I feel I was one of the last generation > who was lucky > > enough to do an old-style degree course. We had access > to real (and > > diverse) systems rather than things being emulated, and > we were given a > > lot of grounding theory in the way things actually > worked, and more > > importantly we weren't given an easy ride - no such > thing as an open > > book exam then, no whizzy graphical tools to do half > the work for us > > etc. > > In my day, we didn't have the option of using a > calculator. > Did that help or hurt? Are the aspects that it helped or > hurt > relevant to what is being tested? > > In my day, we were to supply our own scratch paper for > standardized tests, > including graph paper. We were not allowed to bring in > sliderules, > but there was no rule against making one during the test! > > > I'm amazed at how often the fundamentals that we were > taught have helped > > me work some problem out - and I've lost track of how > many of the later > > generations of graduates I've had to deal with who just > can't think > > properly because all they've been taught is how to push > a mouse around a > > screen. > > How many current students can find a square root without > a sqrt or x^y key on a calculator? How many can do a *cube* root without a calculator (or log/alog tables)? I suspect the "bar" is far lower than suggested here. I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their heads... > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? 2.236+ ;-) --don From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 17:25:18 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <16601.61865.801080.43136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <005901c45970$f6a38fa0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > Take them skydiving... that teaches calm... :-) That reminds me: "If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving's not for you!" :-) -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 17:19:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 23, 4 03:06:59 pm Message-ID: > In my day, we were to supply our own scratch paper for standardized tests, > including graph paper. We were not allowed to bring in sliderules, > but there was no rule against making one during the test! When I did O-level maths years ago, we couldn't use a calculator or slide rule for one of the papers. But we were allowed to take in a ruler. I asked if I could take in _2_ rulers. They said 'sure'. I then showed said teacher how to use 2 rulers to make an adding device (a slide rule with linear scales, of course). The look on the teacher's face was priceless. > How many current students can find a square root without a sqrt or x^y key > on a calculator? I've had many an argument with my father over this. He insists on using the binomial expansion. I prefer the Newton iteration, which converges very quickly [ To find sqrt(A) Set X(0) = A/2 (or some other suitable initial guess) Repeat X(N+1) = ( (A/X(N)) + X(N) ) / 2 Unti X(N) and X(N+1) are sufficiently close Return X(N+1) ] > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? _Nobodu_ knows those values, since they're irrational. 1.4142 and 1.732 seem to be useable approximations (in decimal!) for most work :-) > > I even get some who have been TAUGHT that pi is EXACTLY 22/7. Eeek!. I prefer 355/113, but I do know that's an approximation. > > industry on the surface of things think they want. I do wonder quite > > where things will be in ten years when there's almost nobody left who > > can actually think for themselves though... I hope to still be alive in 10 years time (unless I connect myself accidentally to the wrong points in an SMPSU or something !), and I hope to still be thinking. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 17:23:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: from "auryn@gci-net.com" at Jun 23, 4 03:23:30 pm Message-ID: > > How many current students can find a square root without > > a sqrt or x^y key on a calculator? > > How many can do a *cube* root without a calculator > (or log/alog tables)? I would have to stop and think, but I know I _could_ work out the Newton iteration for it (becuase I did it once a couple of years back). > > I suspect the "bar" is far lower than suggested here. > I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their > heads... Now, what about non-restoring long division? > > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > > 2.236+ ;-) No, that's the square root of 2+3. The square root of 2 AND 3 (assuming a normal binary machine) is presumably somewhere close to 1.4142 :-) -tony From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 23 17:33:51 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <200406232233.PAA18360@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> > I don't like to test memory. >> > My tests are all open book - they don't need to write anything on their >> > shirtsleeves. >> > open notes - they don't need to write anything in the margins of the >> > book. >> >> Couldn't agree more. In "real life" you normally have access to > >I'll go along with this too. Hi One of the most important parts of school learning is to learn how and where to look for information. Another is to learn how to simplify concepts so that they can be applied more universally. Dwight ---snip--- From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 17:35:38 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005c01c45972$6822a020$5b01a8c0@athlon> > And presumably stage 3 is to grab a VAX11/7xx printset, > figure out the microinstruction word, then disassemble the > appropriate bit of the microocde and understand how it works. If you have access to the appropriate printset, that might be an option. I don't have it on paper - I know that some of the 780 stuff is up at bitsavers, but I don't know whether any of the available prints have microcode listings. In all seriousness, you might want to start with something that is a tad simpler than an 11/780 though! > Actually, I've never done this for VAX microcode, I did > comment the entire HP98x0 calculator CPU micorocode source, > though (256 locations of 28 bits each). I went to a DECUS session many moons ago where the guy was talking about the latest MIPs chips. He mentioned that while he was at DEC he would while away the time between whatever bits of stuff he was actually supposed to be doing, by studying the VAX-11/780 design. Obviously must have paid off! Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 17:39:18 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040623153439.S70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 auryn@gci-net.com wrote: > > How many current students can find a square root without > > a sqrt or x^y key on a calculator? > > How many can do a *cube* root without a calculator > (or log/alog tables)? The successive interpolation that I usually use for square roots works fine for cube roots, if they are sufficiently far from 0. > I suspect the "bar" is far lower than suggested here. > I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their > heads... TRUE! > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > 2.236+ ;-) sorry about the typo. I meant to say the square rootS of 2 and of 3. ~1.414 ~1.732 But the square root of (2 AND 3) would be the square root of (2) :-) From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 17:42:14 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005d01c45973$5449cb90$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I've had many an argument with my father over this. He > insists on using > the binomial expansion. I prefer the Newton iteration, which > converges > very quickly > > [ To find sqrt(A) > > Set X(0) = A/2 (or some other suitable initial guess) > Repeat > X(N+1) = ( (A/X(N)) + X(N) ) / 2 > Unti X(N) and X(N+1) are sufficiently close > Return X(N+1) > > ] There's also a method I learnt long ago that is laid out in the same way as a long division. I've forgotten it because it seemed moderately pointless! I've forgotten it so thoroughly thatI've even forgotten whether it had a name or not. I expect that there may well be a similar method for the cube root. If push came to shove (i.e. no calculator, no computer, no slide rule, no log tables) I'd go for Newton Raphson too. I cannot remember that one either, but I can remember that on previous occasions when I've needed it I've been able to regenerate it from first principles :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 17:43:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040623154014.E70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > > > > 2.236+ ;-) > > No, that's the square root of 2+3. The square root of 2 AND 3 (assuming a > normal binary machine) is presumably somewhere close to 1.4142 :-) sorry for the typo. I intended to say: How many even know the square roots of 2 and 3? (square root of (2), square root of (3) ) But, even GIVEN the square rootS of 2 and of 3, how many students could tell you the square root of 6? From dan at ekoan.com Wed Jun 23 17:55:02 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040623185329.058a3eb0@enigma> Fred, Do you really give out tests like this: At 06:06 PM 6/23/04, you wrote: >int N = 10; >while (N--) printf("&d\n",N); >What are the first and last numbers displayed? >is appropriate for open-book. I'm presuming there's a typo inside the quotes... otherwise you have a nice trick question! Cheers, Dan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 17:47:39 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1088030859.11575.136.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 22:06, Fred Cisin wrote: > int N = 10; > while (N--) printf("&d\n",N); > What are the first and last numbers displayed? > is appropriate for open-book. Hmm, personally I wouldn't want to hire anyone saying they knew a language if that was typical of the sort of thing they'd been asked in an exam where they also had the reference material handy! Any student should be able to say what the result is without having to resort to any kind of reference. If trivial programming examples are used as questions, and then a graduate is hired on the basis of knowing language x then it's a disaster - they spend much of their time delving into reference books to do the simplest of things and have no idea about the fundamental concepts behind programming languages. I've seen it happen all too often, and testing potential employees at interview time can only catch so much (aside from being horribly time-consuming and expensive*) *I remember IBM did graduate interviews over two days - I lost track of how many technical, logic and aptitude tests we had to do, along with one-on-one interviews and presentations. Those guys really wanted to know what they were getting! > > Then these people go out into the real world and they can't think for > > shit - as soon as an oddball problem hits them they're just incapable of > > working it through to a solution as they're too used to just being able > > to read the answer in a book right when they need it. > > Then these people go out into the real world and they can't think for > shit - as soon as an oddball problem hits them they're just incapable of > working it through to a solution as they've forgotten everything that > they memorized. Historically the industry has moved so fast that you can't teach application xyz to students though because it'd be obsolete by the time they graduated. Hence the need to teach concepts and develop problem-solving skills and the ability to think around any kind of problem which might crop up (and where a reference that says "if this happens, do this" will likely not be available). As an example, I've not touched Ingres since I was at uni, but I've certainly made use of database skills picked up then. I believe I would have been worse off had I been in an exam where I had a SQL reference in front of me, say, because the temptation would be there to rely on the reference in the exam and forget everything about SQL afterwards. All this may be irrelevant if the industry has completely stagnated though, and people are going to be bolting bloated software together or designing hardware in drag-and-drop Microsoft GUI tools forever onwards :-( > In my day, we didn't have the option of using a calculator. > Did that help or hurt? Are the aspects that it helped or hurt > relevant to what is being tested? Well, in a modern context I wish some testing at degree level was done without the ability to use a calculator. Mental arithmetic is another one of those basic skills which does come in handy from time to time, plus it helps keep the brain sharp. > OTOH, in the UC Berkeley School of Information Management and Systems, > I was the first student ever to use a word processor for the PhD > written exams. I managed to convince them that grading > penmanship was no longer valid. That's interesting. I believe over here you can be marked down if you *don't* use a computer for certain literature work within courses. Funny how it's changed over the years. > > I'm amazed at how often the fundamentals that we were taught have helped > > me work some problem out - and I've lost track of how many of the later > > generations of graduates I've had to deal with who just can't think > > properly because all they've been taught is how to push a mouse around a > > screen. > > How many current students can find a square root without a sqrt or x^y key > on a calculator? > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? Now I'd say there's a difference between the two there - in that the first is an example of a general skill which could be useful (and no, I don't believe I've ever been taught how to do it!). The second is just a specific of the first though and I'm not sure how useful memorising specific numbers is (someone convince me, though) > I even get some who have been TAUGHT that pi is EXACTLY 22/7. Oh dear! :-) > > Anyway, rant over :-) > > mine is just beginning. ha ha! cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 23 17:48:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <200406232248.PAA18366@clulw009.amd.com> >From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >> > I know how, just about every part of, a microwave oven works and >> >> Then you'll know why the HV supply is almost invariably voltage >> doubled AC and not rectified and smothed DC. > >I know it is (the magnetron itself is one of the diodes in the doubler, >along with one capacitor and a semiconductor diode), but I don't actually >know _why_. Presumably it's to simplify the insulation of the transformer >or something. > >-tony > Oops I missed this question. Tony is right. Also, once the magnetron gets to the threshold voltage, it likes to run at a constant volage. The capacitor source is better at supplying this as part of the sine wave. If you try to feed it with a fixed voltage, it will destroy the tube. The capacitor works like a current limiting resistor without the power loss. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 17:51:55 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040623154556.O70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Well, you might actually be able to show them the same simple > > > program for the IBM-1401, PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11, VAX, ... to > > > get an idea of the different architectures. Something simple, > > > like calculating a polynomial (VAX = 1 instruction, > > > PDP-8=aaak! You expect me to type that in?). > > Presumably for stage two you have them explain > > why the POLYx instructions (which are in microcode > > in the early VAXen) were subsetted out later on. > And presumably stage 3 is to grab a VAX11/7xx printset, figure out the > microinstruction word, then disassemble the appropriate bit of the > microocde and understand how it works. Actually, I've never done this for > VAX microcode, I did comment the entire HP98x0 calculator CPU micorocode > source, though (256 locations of 28 bits each). I think that we are getting more than a little past what I can realistically teach beginners in one semester. Ten or twenty years ago, we could add followup, more advanced classes into the schedule. Now I'm in a [losing] fight for survival, trying to keep programming classes alive. If they ask me to teach Microsoft Weird again, I might not survive. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 17:59:21 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406232233.PAA18360@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406232233.PAA18360@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <1088031561.11575.143.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 22:33, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > One of the most important parts of school learning is to > learn how and where to look for information. That's another very valid point. Most people I come across don't know how to find things any more. If they don't have it at their fingertips, they sit there like a potato and do nothing - they don't go and ask anyone, don't go and attempt to look it up anywhere. It's almost as though not only is knowledge being thrown away, but nobody even *wants* to think any more. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 18:00:22 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040623185329.058a3eb0@enigma> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> <6.0.3.0.2.20040623185329.058a3eb0@enigma> Message-ID: <20040623155603.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Dan Veeneman wrote: > Fred, > Do you really give out tests like this: No I proofread them, and then more carefully proofread the hardcopy before duplicating. > At 06:06 PM 6/23/04, you wrote: > >int N = 10; > >while (N--) printf("&d\n",N); > >What are the first and last numbers displayed? > >is appropriate for open-book. > > I'm presuming there's a typo inside the quotes... > otherwise you have a nice trick question! I do sometimes deliberately give trick questions, such as while (N); { printf("%d\n",N); } but this one was, indeed, a typo. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 23 18:07:00 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Remembering back about 7 years ago [15+ years experience then]. The company had the most annoying placement test I had ever seen. If was "open-book" and given in their reference library. Unfortunately the IBM PC-Reference had the back half missing from the binder. They gave 1 hour for the test. Most of the questions I answered off the top of my head, others I just wrote down the page it would have been on in an intact reference manual. Finished the test in about 10 minutes. They thought I had just guessed at everything, until they checked my answers [including page referenceas against an intct PC Reference], and realized I had aced the test. A month later I was their lead software engineer, and was starting a complete re-architecture of their entire product line. Worked out for me... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 4:47 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods >>> & headcount... ; >>> >>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Dan Kolb wrote: >>> > I would agree generally there. However, I'd also say it's >>> important to >>> > have some stuff memorised, so you don't end up referring >>> to books for >>> > trivial problems. >>> >>> OTOH, I sometimes tell them, "If you really feel a need to >>> cram and memorize, then memorize the index of the book, so >>> that you can find things faster." :-) From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 18:00:06 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040623135335.I70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040623135335.I70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200406232301.TAA10445@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Q: Current C compilers are written in C. > What was the FIRST C compiler written in? Was there a well-defined "first C compiler"? I'm not sure there was. The language we know today as C has evolved over many years, and it's hard to find an obvious place to draw a "before this was not C" line. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 23 18:05:17 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088030859.11575.136.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> <1088030859.11575.136.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406231805.17542.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 23 June 2004 17:47, Jules Richardson wrote: > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > > Now I'd say there's a difference between the two there - in that the > first is an example of a general skill which could be useful (and no, > I don't believe I've ever been taught how to do it!). The second is > just a specific of the first though and I'm not sure how useful > memorising specific numbers is (someone convince me, though) Ok, here's a couple of examples: Given an RMS meter reading of 600, what's the peak voltage of the signal (a simple sine wave) to ground, for judging how thick insulation should be on a HV line. Estimate the power usage in W (assuming a purely resistive load) on a 208V 3phase VAX 8800 if the load is 25A on each phase. The first is, of course 600*sqrt(2) = or about 1.4*600=840. I can do that quickly and easily in my head. The second can be done two ways. Either (knowing that each phase is 120V, assuming a Y configuration) 120V * 3 * 25A, or 208 * sqrt(3) * 25A. If you're dealing with a delta or weird voltages where you dont have V/sqrt(3) memorized (208/sqrt(3) = 120), it's helpful to know that sqrt(3) is approximately 1.7. I'd say sqrt(2) and sqrt(3) are the two most important roots to know the value of, at least in an elect(ron)ic context. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 23 18:06:05 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <200406232306.QAA18376@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dan Veeneman" > >Fred, > >Do you really give out tests like this: > >At 06:06 PM 6/23/04, you wrote: >>int N = 10; >>while (N--) printf("&d\n",N); >>What are the first and last numbers displayed? >>is appropriate for open-book. > >I'm presuming there's a typo inside the quotes... >otherwise you have a nice trick question! > Hi Evaluation order can be important in many context. That is why I like a more concise language than C. Dwight From auryn at gci-net.com Wed Jun 23 18:05:45 2004 From: auryn at gci-net.com (auryn@gci-net.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <005d01c45973$5449cb90$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > There's also a method I learnt long ago > that is laid out in the same way as > a long division. I've forgotten it Exactly! (that was the point of my cube root query). > because it seemed moderately pointless! Well, no more pointless than long division, etc. :> > I've forgotten it so thoroughly that I've > even forgotten whether it had a name or not. In elementary school, it was called "finding the square root" :> I never could understand why "long division" got such an "important" name... while *this* procedure (considerably LONGer) was given such an ambiguous name! (ambiguous to a pre-teen, that is!) > I expect that there may well be a similar > method for the cube root. Yes. And, if you throw out all the (ahem) "trivial" cases for roots that can be formed by "factoring" (that's GOT to be the wrong term, here... <:-( out other "easy" roots (i.e. 4th is sqrt(sqrt), 6th is sqrt(3rd), etc.), the method can be extended to other "higher roots". You'd be better served to lobotomize yourself beforehand :-( I have these written up someplace. I should ferret them out... --don From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 18:12:03 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040623154556.O70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040623154556.O70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1088032323.11575.155.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 22:51, Fred Cisin wrote: > I think that we are getting more than a little past what I can > realistically teach beginners in one semester. Give them the course in zip format :-) > Ten or twenty years ago, we could add followup, more advanced > classes into the schedule. Now I'm in a [losing] fight for > survival, trying to keep programming classes alive. If they > ask me to teach Microsoft Weird again, I might not survive. Teachers over here are under increasing pressure to deliberately teach and test students in areas in which they already have prior knowledge. It has the effect of raising pass marks and making the school look good in the Government-imposed league tables, and of course makes the Government look good because they can show how their policies must be working because there has been a marked improvement in pass rates since previous years. Teachers over here aren't actually allowed to think for themselves any more - just about minute of the day is dictated by central Government and the workload in terms of red-tape is incredible (naturally leaving less time for real teaching). Universities are - AFAIK - still self-governing, but I'm not sure whether that'll last. cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Wed Jun 23 18:13:03 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern Message-ID: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "der Mouse" > >> Q: Current C compilers are written in C. >> What was the FIRST C compiler written in? > >Was there a well-defined "first C compiler"? I'm not sure there was. >The language we know today as C has evolved over many years, and it's >hard to find an obvious place to draw a "before this was not C" line. Hi There was a 'B' as well. I don't recall hearing about a 'A'. Dwight From auryn at gci-net.com Wed Jun 23 18:15:43 2004 From: auryn at gci-net.com (auryn@gci-net.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623154014.E70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > > > > > > 2.236+ ;-) > > > > No, that's the square root of 2+3. The square root of 2 > AND 3 (assuming a > > normal binary machine) is presumably somewhere close to > 1.4142 :-) I think my humor may have been too subtle... it was intended to reflect the mindset of a *child* -- where "and" predates "plus" in describing aritmetic operations (at least on this side of the pond in the distant past :>) Since the operations we were discussing are those typically (in the *past*!) taught to *children* :> (and why is it that we magically ignore the *other* square root in each example cited? :-( > sorry for the typo. No, I was busting balls... :> > I intended to say: > How many even know the square roots of 2 and 3? > (square root of (2), square root of (3) ) > > But, even GIVEN the square rootS of 2 and of 3, > how many students could tell you the square root of 6? Or, *why*! --don From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 23 18:22:05 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <005801c45970$cbe68d30$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <005801c45970$cbe68d30$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <1088032924.11575.161.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 22:24, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I seem to recall for my degree anything requiring databooks would be > > done as coursework, not as an exam in an exam hall - which seems the > > logical approach. > > Nah. Course work was invented for wimps who could not > cope with the fact that the worth of their entire lives > up to that point was going to be measured in three days > or so :-) Heh, true. I remember our exams were always about the last of all the degree courses in the year, so we'd be queued up outside the exam halls whilst there were loads of people around us out enjoying the summer. Gits. > Absolutely. I'd be lost without addition and multiplication. > Subtraction is pretty useful but division just seems to be > an optimisation that I can often get by without :-) > I'm trying to think of the last time I needed any > vector calculus or Cachy-Riemann or even simple > control theory. There's the occasional would-this- > other-algorithm-be-any-better, but not often. I you mention complex numbers, I'll have to shoot you :-) Seriously, I'm not a maths person at all - I just can't get my brain around it. I could cope with the sort of maths I needed for computing work, but any more than that and I would have been stuck... > Actually, I was going to point out that the > world has been in terminal decline for all > of recorded history, but I'm afraid the > pyramids may crop up again :-) Maybe if we decline any further the aliens will come along and help us out ;-) seeya Jules From auryn at gci-net.com Wed Jun 23 18:40:56 2004 From: auryn at gci-net.com (auryn@gci-net.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:47 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:13:03 -0700 (PDT) "Dwight K. Elvey" wrote: > > >From: "der Mouse" > > > >> Q: Current C compilers are written in C. > >> What was the FIRST C compiler written in? > > > >Was there a well-defined "first C compiler"? I'm not > sure there was. > >The language we know today as C has evolved over many > years, and it's > >hard to find an obvious place to draw a "before this was > not C" line. > > There was a 'B' as well. I don't recall hearing about a > 'A'. I thought the puzzle was whether C's successor would be *D* or *P*... --don From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 18:05:12 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406232342.TAA10660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> How many can do a *cube* root without a calculator Well...I can, though I'd ask to be allowed a four-function calculator. Doing it by hand pushes the error rate higher than I would be comfortable with. >> I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their heads... > Now, what about non-restoring long division? What's that? "Restoring" is not an adjective I know of any meaning for when attached to "log division". (I may know the referent, of course; I'm just sure I don't know the reference.) >>> How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? >> 2.236+ ;-) > No, that's the square root of 2+3. ...which is one of the possible meanings of the text quoted. > The square root of 2 AND 3 ...which is another of the possible meanings of that text... For what it may be worth, I know the square root of 2 to about four significant digits (1.4142+), of 3 to two (1.7+). There are other important constants I know better (I don't use sqrt(3) much); pi to 26, log(2) to five, e to ten.... Amusingly, I know the square root of 15? to 17 significant digits (integer part plus 16 decimal places), because of some family silliness. (My father went so far as to work it out longhand, using a four-function calculator to help, basically doing a longhand square root - yes, he knew how! - in base 10000. He carried it to some faintly insane number of places, something like 50 or 100 decimal digits. It gives me a rather "sic transit gloria mundi" feeling to now type a couple dozen keystrokes and have the result to over a thousand places. Far more precise and accurate but not nearly as much fun.) Interestingly, it begins 3.93700393700, which looks suspiciously rational; fortunately for my faith in arithmetic :), it continues 59055, dispelling the apparent rationality. Looking at 3.93700393700393700393700..., I find its continued fraction form is [3; 1 14 1 6 1 14 1 6 1 14 1 3], which leads me to suspect that sqrt(15.5) is [3; 1 14 1 6 1 14 1 6 1 14 1 6...], a conjecture borne out numerically; a little scribbling verifies its theoretical truth. (I keep meaning to build software to work with numbers represented as continued fractions....) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 18:46:50 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088030859.11575.136.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040623144548.P70782@newshell.lmi.net> <1088030859.11575.136.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040623160415.M70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > int N = 10; > > while (N--) printf("%d\n",N); > > What are the first and last numbers displayed? > > is appropriate for open-book. > > Hmm, personally I wouldn't want to hire anyone saying they knew a > language if that was typical of the sort of thing they'd been asked in > an exam where they also had the reference material handy! Any student > should be able to say what the result is without having to resort to any > kind of reference. Sure, for somebody who says that they know a language, coming to you for a job. But for a student part way through the course (MID-TERM!), it is a simple test for whether they can apply the order of precedence rules. > If trivial programming examples are used as questions, and then a > graduate is hired on the basis of knowing language x then it's a > disaster This is NOT an employment exam! It is from a mid-term exam, one of 50 questions to be done in 2 hours, intended to find out which students can APPLY precedence rules (and wake them up!). VIRTUALLY anybody who has to look it up, will almost certainly get it wrong, since the book(s) may make it quite clear about when the decrement is applied relative to the conditional test, but will NOT tell them about whether the decrement is applied before or after the BODY of the loop. If they UNDERSTAND, then they will get it right. You certainly wouldn't want to HIRE somebody who gets that one wrong [past a trainee level]. But you would also not be pleased to know that I have seen CS graduates from UC who got it wrong! In fact, I'd be willing to bet that 10% of the folks on this list who claim to know C would get it wrong! And several of those would argue about the answer without trying it. (if N were to be declared "unsigned", even more would get it wrong!) > - they spend much of their time delving into reference books to > do the simplest of things and have no idea about the fundamental > concepts behind programming languages. I've seen it happen all too > often, and testing potential employees at interview time can only catch > so much (aside from being horribly time-consuming and expensive*) That's right. An interview based on one trivial programming question would be a joke. > *I remember IBM did graduate interviews over two days - I lost track of > how many technical, logic and aptitude tests we had to do, along with > one-on-one interviews and presentations. Those guys really wanted to > know what they were getting! seems reasonable to me > > OTOH, in the UC Berkeley School of Information Management and Systems, > > I was the first student ever to use a word processor for the PhD > > written exams. I managed to convince them that grading > > penmanship was no longer valid. > That's interesting. I believe over here you can be marked down if you > *don't* use a computer for certain literature work within courses. Funny > how it's changed over the years. This wasn't "within courses". It was a "sealed room" (closet) closed book series of essay questions. There was major debate over how to "sanitize" a computer. They asked me what word processor I wanted to use; I told them, "YOU pick a word processor; ANY word processor; and then give me a week with a SIMILAR (but not the same) machine to learn it. Then remove the floppy drive and the modem, and tamper-seal the case." They had me use Windows WRITE. It worked out beautifully - I was able to produce legible content and more of it, and was even able to proofread a little before printing. Based on their experience with me, they began making a word processor available as an option from then on. > > How many current students can find a square root without a sqrt or x^y key > > on a calculator? > > > > How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > > Now I'd say there's a difference between the two there - in that the > first is an example of a general skill which could be useful (and no, I > don't believe I've ever been taught how to do it!). The second is just a > specific of the first though and I'm not sure how useful memorising > specific numbers is (someone convince me, though) That's why I listed them separately. Knowing how to find a square root is a technique; knowing a few common square roots is an indication (not completely accurate) of whether you have used square roots much. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 23 18:48:37 2004 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006a01c4597c$9b687ef0$5b01a8c0@athlon> > I thought the puzzle was whether C's successor would > be *D* or *P*... It will be D (or D++, I forget the exact name). (Wasn't it Algol that was praised as being a considerable improvement over its successors ?) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From shirsch at adelphia.net Wed Jun 23 19:11:57 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) In-Reply-To: <40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net> References: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Bob Shannon wrote: > Oddly I've seen a fair ammount of vintage stuff get tossed at the end of the > MIT Flea. Interesting. I've been attending MIT Flea for 10 years, and was just lamenting with friends about how nothing resembling "vintage stuff" even appears there anymore - much less gets tossed. The interesting junk seems to go straight to Ebay without stopping. It's still a fun time, though! > Where are all the local collectors in Massachusettes? evan wrote: Can't help you with that. We drive down from Burlington, Vermont. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 19:17:40 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Origins of C (was: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <20040623165651.W70782@newshell.lmi.net> > >> Q: Current C compilers are written in C. > >> What was the FIRST C compiler written in? > >From: "der Mouse" > >Was there a well-defined "first C compiler"? I'm not sure there was. > >The language we know today as C has evolved over many years, and it's > >hard to find an obvious place to draw a "before this was not C" line. Although I would be more inclined to agree with you on some other languages that have evolved, C was written and documented very deliberately. It was written by Titchie and Thompson, and documented by Kernighan and Ritchie. (K&R). Although there have been many later versions that have strayed, and the ANSI standard C has significant differences, K&R C has a known history. On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > Hi > There was a 'B' as well. I don't recall hearing about a 'A'. > Dwight There was a predecessor to C, that was mostly theoretical, and rarely implemented named BCPL. The confusion over whether the sequence was A B C D v B C P L led to: > > I thought the puzzle was whether C's successor would > > be *D* or *P*... On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > It will be D (or D++, I forget the exact name). I doubt it. But C++ claims to be a successor to C. C# claims to be a successor to C++, although I don't know whether anybody outside of MICROS~1 takes that seriously. > (Wasn't it Algol that was praised as being a > considerable improvement over its successors ?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 19:23:57 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406232342.TAA10660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200406232342.TAA10660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040623172117.Q70782@newshell.lmi.net> On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > >> How many can do a *cube* root without a calculator > Well...I can, though I'd ask to be allowed a four-function calculator. > Doing it by hand pushes the error rate higher than I would be > comfortable with. If what is being tested is your ability to come up with an algorithm, not your ability to do the arithmetic, then i would agree. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Jun 23 18:16:45 2004 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 24 Jun 2004 00:48:37 +0100 . <006a01c4597c$9b687ef0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <20040624002617.HRSL25164.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> In message <006a01c4597c$9b687ef0$5b01a8c0@athlon>, "Antonio Carlini" writes: >> I thought the puzzle was whether C's successor would >> be *D* or *P*... > >It will be D (or D++, I forget the exact name). IIRC Dennis Ritchie's HOPL II paper on C indicates that the D vs. P question was left intentionally ambiguous. Ok, I just looked it up: "I decided to follow the single-letter style and called it C, leaving open the question whether the name represented a progression through the alphabet or through the letters in BCPL." Of course, it's all academic. It's hard to imagine that any language could have a meaningful claim to the title of "successor of C." Everything else is "another language" (which is not to say that no language could ever be better for some applications). Brian L. Stuart From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 18:58:38 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <005d01c45973$5449cb90$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <005d01c45973$5449cb90$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <200406240029.UAA10951@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I've had many an argument with my father over this. He insists on >> using the binomial expansion. I prefer the Newton iteration, which >> converges very quickly So, you use Newton-Raphson; he uses binomial. Nothing wrong with either one. (Though I'm not familiar with how to use binomial expansions to find square roots.) > There's also a method I learnt long ago that is laid out in the same > way as a long division. I've forgotten it because it seemed > moderately pointless! Today, it is, when a computer can cough up several thousand digits in the time it takes you to work out three by hand. Knowing how to do it, though, involves learning enough of the theory behind it to stand you in good stead in other cases, though. (Assuming you actually understand it. Learning how to do it by rote, without understanding why, _is_ pretty pointless.) > I expect that there may well be a similar method for the cube root. There is, but it is significantly more elaborate to perform. Longhand square root extraction is based on (X+d)^2 = X^2 + 2Xd + d^2. For example, to work out sqrt(15.5) (in decimal), we start with the first digit. (If you can't get the first digit right without assistance, you have no business trying something this elaborate! :-) ___3.___________ ) 15.50 00 00 00 9 6 -- 6 50 Now, we have written 15.5 = (3^2 + 2?3?d + d^2), with d to be determined. The 6.50 is 2?3?d + d^2. The 6 sitting off at the right is what I saw described as the memorandum column; it's twice the root-so-far. Now, we look for a digit X such that 6X * X <= 650 (this is 2?3?d+d^2). We want the largest digit that fits; 9 works, so we fill it in, and write in and subtract off 69*9: ___3._9_________ ) 15.50 00 00 00 9 6 -- 6 50 6 21 78 ---- 29 00 This gives us 15.5 = 3.9^2 + .29, and we need to write .29 as 2*3.9*d+d^2, for some value of d in [0,.1). The mechanics of this is that we find X such that 78X * X < 2900. 783*3=2349, but 784*4=3136, so we use 3 (that is, we've decided d is in [0.3,0.4)): ___3._9__3______ ) 15.50 00 00 00 9 6 -- 6 50 6 21 78 ---- 29 00 23 49 786 ----- 5 51 00 Et cetera. Und so weiter. Og s? videre. Usually, you can get the next digit right by looking at just the high digit or two of the memorandum column; only when it's close to the edge may you have to try multiplying out different choices in full. In the next position, for example, I'd look and say "55/7 = 7+, let's try 7", and indeed, 7 works (barely - the remainder is so low the next two digits of the root are zero). You can do the same thing for cube roots, writing (N+d)^3=N^3+3N^2d+3Nd^2+d^3, but the arithmetic with the memorandum column becomes a good deal messier. > If push came to shove (i.e. no calculator, no computer, no slide > rule, no log tables) I'd go for Newton Raphson too. Well...for the first few digits, I'd probably do something ad-hoc, bisection and/or cut-and-try. If I needed more precision, I'd likely use Newton-Raphson, but I'd truncate the quotient to about the number of places that I know are good, since I also know that N-R is fully capable of recovering from a more or less arbitrary guess, so the lost digits will, at most, slow convergence - and I care less about the number of N-R steps required than I do about the amount of work I need to do during them. If I needed a high-precision root, of course the last steps would be N-R. But under no-tools circumstances, it's unlikely the root is needed to more than about three significant digits anyway. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From vcf at siconic.com Wed Jun 23 19:44:33 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040622151533.M49817@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > How about 6502 or 6809 stuff? :) > > I'm going to teach them how to make programs that run on > the machines that are there. You should fill your lab with a few of these: http://www.xgamestation.com Shipping soon! :) I can also supply half a dozen (at least) complete Apple //e systems for learning 6502 ;) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 19:49:45 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <1088032323.11575.155.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <20040623154556.O70782@newshell.lmi.net> <1088032323.11575.155.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040623172948.R70782@newshell.lmi.net> > On Wed, 2004-06-23 at 22:51, Fred Cisin wrote: > > I think that we are getting more than a little past what I can > > realistically teach beginners in one semester. On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > Give them the course in zip format :-) While too much for the first semester intro to asm class, many of these proposals would make a GREAT textbook! > > Ten or twenty years ago, we could add followup, more advanced > > classes into the schedule. Now I'm in a [losing] fight for > > survival, trying to keep programming classes alive. If they > > ask me to teach Microsoft Weird again, I might not survive. > > Teachers over here are under increasing pressure to deliberately teach > and test students in areas in which they already have prior knowledge. > It has the effect of raising pass marks and making the school look good > in the Government-imposed league tables, and of course makes the > Government look good because they can show how their policies must be > working because there has been a marked improvement in pass rates since > previous years. My teaching is at the community college, which is a two year school that grants Associate of Arts (AA) degrees, provides the first two years and prepares students to transfer as third year students into 4 year schools, provides skill enhancement, adult enrichment for students who WANT to learn (why I joined), employable skills, and some remedial computer literacy, etc. Ten or twenty years ago, I could also recruit! I got Miriam Liskin to teach our dBase course, Charles Stevenson (Micropro) to do a semester of the data structures and algorithms class, etc. Now enrollment is lower, and they are cancelling (and deleting from future offerings!) any course with low enrollment. (which is damn near everything except required courses and remedial ones.) > Teachers over here aren't actually allowed to think for themselves any > more - just about minute of the day is dictated by central Government > and the workload in terms of red-tape is incredible (naturally leaving > less time for real teaching). Universities are - AFAIK - still > self-governing, but I'm not sure whether that'll last. There is a tradition in the USA that, within the classroom, a professor is in absolute control. But now they want much more detail in course outlines, with people who know nothing about the subject matter having veto power over content, administrators who firmly believe that no course is appropriate in the college that goes into more detail of the subject than they personally know, an administrator who [incorrectly] insists that it is "ILLEGAL" for us to offer ANY course that is taught as "upper division" (third or fourth year) in any of the 4 year schools (including two courses that one of the state 4 year schools COPIED from us), a vice president who wanted to be a high school principal instead, etc. Retirement is starting to be interesting. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 20:00:16 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623160415.M70782@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 23, 2004 04:46:50 PM Message-ID: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > int N = 10; > > > while (N--) printf("%d\n",N); > > > What are the first and last numbers displayed? > > > is appropriate for open-book. > > > > Hmm, personally I wouldn't want to hire anyone saying they knew a > > language if that was typical of the sort of thing they'd been asked in > > an exam where they also had the reference material handy! Any student > > should be able to say what the result is without having to resort to any > > kind of reference. > > Sure, for somebody who says that they know a language, > coming to you for a job. > But for a student part way through the course (MID-TERM!), it is > a simple test for whether they can apply the order of precedence > rules. Precedence rules I can look up. If *I'm* in doubt, I'll add parentheses to make my intent clear. > This is NOT an employment exam! > It is from a mid-term exam, one of 50 questions to be done > in 2 hours, intended to find out which students > can APPLY precedence rules (and wake them up!). > VIRTUALLY anybody who has to look it up, will almost certainly > get it wrong, since the book(s) may make it quite clear about > when the decrement is applied relative to the conditional test, > but will NOT tell them about whether the decrement is applied > before or after the BODY of the loop. If they UNDERSTAND, > then they will get it right. I've been working with C for over ten years and *I* got it wrong, which I can understand because the compiler is free to insert the increment anywhere between sequence points (I guess I didn't realize there was a sequence point in the middle there). I thought I used that form, but in going over my code, it looks like I've actually avoided that particular construct (while (var--) ... )in my code (heck, I'm looking over 10 year old code and I can't find that particular form). Another example to be wary of: i = 1; printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); I've seen different results from different compilers, all ANSI C compliant (GCC does what people expect, while the IRIX compiler followed the letter, if not the spirit, of the standard). > In fact, I'd be willing to bet that 10% of the folks on this > list who claim to know C would get it wrong! And several of > those would argue about the answer without trying it. > (if N were to be declared "unsigned", even more would get it wrong!) Really? Once you realize that C treats the value of 0 as false, and anything else as true, then there isn't any difference between using a signed or unsigned int in the loop (okay, I cheated, I ran the fragment of code both ways---that's how I know I'm wrong). But if we're going to go into gotchas of C, what's wrong with this code? void foo(char *s) { int charcount[256]; memset(charcount,0,sizeof(charcount)); for ( ; *s ; s++) { charcount[*s]++; } } -spc (And no, not being Unicode savvy isn't one of the problems I'm looking for ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 20:10:24 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040623175259.C70782@newshell.lmi.net> > > > How about 6502 or 6809 stuff? :) > > I'm going to teach them how to make programs that run on > > the machines that are there. On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > You should fill your lab with a few of these: > http://www.xgamestation.com > Shipping soon! :) > I can also supply half a dozen (at least) complete Apple //e systems for > learning 6502 ;) Unlike the good old days, I no longer have ANY control over what is in the lab! Even FREE, they won't let us have anything in the lab, except for the HPaq machines that THEY chose and provide! A few years ago, they dumpstered most of Monte's collection two weeks BEFORE the deadline that they had given him to remove it. I had to get my VT100 back from their dumpster. I was able to negotiate keeping a single 4 foot wide shelf of artifacts. But they threatened Monte with criminal prosecution if he went near the dumpsters. A few months ago, they even took away the 5150 that the intro classes were using to explain "PC". They won't even willingly let me store my weapons of math instruction. (abacus, slide rule, board with 32 lightbulbs, 24" CADET? disk platter, etc.) Fortunately, they haven't been looking behind the books on my bookshelves :-) But one administrator has expresses an intent to forbid any of us having more than one bookcase! Wanna know WHY I'm grumpy? From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 23 20:18:29 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 Message-ID: I'm still looking for an ASR-33 teletype, an LA36 DecWriter, and a VT50 DecScope for my 1977-78 PDP-11/40 computer center "reincarnation" project. Does anyone on this list have any of these items that they would be interested in getting rid of? Also, another item that I need to make the project complete is an HP 7200A plotter. If anyone has any of these items and wants to get rid of them, please contact me off-list. Thanks, Ashley From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 23 20:15:39 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <16601.61865.801080.43136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> <40D9EF5E.8080307@mdrconsult.com> <16601.61865.801080.43136@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <40DA2B3B.50604@mdrconsult.com> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>>"Doc" == Doc Shipley writes: > > > Doc> .... That bothers me a lot. I can teach them > Doc> Linux, but I can't teach them calm. > > Take them skydiving... that teaches calm... :-) Or emergency first aid.... Doc From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 20:15:36 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> References: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <200406240119.VAA11422@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> (if N were to be declared "unsigned", even more would get it wrong!) > Really? Once you realize that C treats the value of 0 as false, and > anything else as true, then there isn't any difference Yes. But a lot of people will get confused because they know that -- wraps from zero to ~0U and won't read the test carefully enough. > But if we're going to go into gotchas of C, what's wrong with this code? [compressed vertically to save space -dM] > void foo(char *s) > { int charcount[256]; memset(charcount,0,sizeof(charcount)); > for ( ; *s ; s++) { charcount[*s]++; } > } Nothing...on machines where char is 8-bit unsigned. :-) If char is signed, or if it's wider than 8 bits, you lose big - and worse, you don't lose until it's called with a string that happens to contain offending characters, so it may "work fine" in testing. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 20:38:21 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> References: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <20040623182238.L70782@newshell.lmi.net> > > > > int N = 10; > > > > while (N--) printf("%d\n",N); > > > > What are the first and last numbers displayed? On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Precedence rules I can look up. If *I'm* in doubt, I'll add parentheses > to make my intent clear. I teach my students to use parentheses VERY liberally (wheneverthere is ANY possibility of ambiguity or doubt) but I also teach them that they will have to be able to understand other people's code that might not have them in places where they would be useful. > I've been working with C for over ten years and *I* got it wrong, which I then you don't agree with Jules that it is too trivial to consider? But the REAL question is "how much would a book help?" > can understand because the compiler is free to insert the increment anywhere > between sequence points (I guess I didn't realize there was a sequence point > in the middle there). I thought I used that form, but in going over my > code, it looks like I've actually avoided that particular construct (while > (var--) ... )in my code (heck, I'm looking over 10 year old code and I can't > find that particular form). I don't care overly much for it, but have seen it quite a bit. > Another example to be wary of: > i = 1; > printf("%d %d %d\n",i++,i++,i++); > I've seen different results from different compilers, all ANSI C > compliant (GCC does what people expect, while the IRIX compiler followed the > letter, if not the spirit, of the standard). There are SOME things that K&R explicitly say are compiler dependent or undefined, such as A[N++] = N; (sequence of lvalue v rvalue evaluation is not defined (at least in original K&R)) > > In fact, I'd be willing to bet that 10% of the folks on this > > list who claim to know C would get it wrong! And several of > > those would argue about the answer without trying it. > > (if N were to be declared "unsigned", even more would get it wrong!) > Really? Once you realize that C treats the value of 0 as false, and > anything else as true, then there isn't any difference between using a > signed or unsigned int in the loop (okay, I cheated, I ran the fragment of > code both ways---that's how I know I'm wrong). The most common error is to think that it will start with 10, and end with 1, but one of the other possible errors is to somehow think that it would go past 0, and give 9 to -1. Sharp people, who nevertheless somehow make that error, might think that that would result in a 65535 or 2147483647, but the %d in printf will treat the bit pattern as signed, even though the variable is defined as unsigned. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 20:39:10 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040623175259.C70782@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 23, 2004 06:10:24 PM Message-ID: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > A few years ago, they dumpstered most of Monte's collection two > weeks BEFORE the deadline that they had given him to remove it. > I had to get my VT100 back from their dumpster. > I was able to negotiate keeping a single 4 foot wide shelf > of artifacts. But they threatened Monte with criminal > prosecution if he went near the dumpsters. Um ... who's Monte, and why did they do such a horrible thing to him? > They won't even willingly let me store my weapons of math instruction. > (abacus, slide rule, board with 32 lightbulbs, 24" CADET? disk > platter, etc.) Fortunately, they haven't been looking behind > the books on my bookshelves :-) > But one administrator has expresses an intent to forbid > any of us having more than one bookcase! > > > Wanna know WHY I'm grumpy? I want to know why they're taking stuff away from you. That's insane! Unless there's a concerted effort to remove education from "the great unwashed masses" without "the great unwashed masses" from knowing ... -spc (There seem to be plenty of trade schools left, but are there any real universities?) From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 23 20:50:19 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" References: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <001c01c4598d$9b2599d0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 9:39 PM Subject: Re: "Nobody teaches assembly language" > -spc (There seem to be plenty of trade schools left, but are there any > real universities?) > Universities are like any other buisines these days, costs go up so you reduce quality and raise tuition. Unlike a car tire that's built bad and causes an accident where the maker get sued, what recourse does a student have when he graduates from a university that didn't teach him anything useful? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 20:51:04 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> References: <20040624010016.37B6910B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <20040623184326.R70782@newshell.lmi.net> I intended that as a "sample" to illustrate a case where knowledge would make it trivial, but use of the book will only help partially. But here is the variant of that that I used in the mid-term (9 weeks into the class) THIS semester. The primary thing being tested in this "trivial" exercise is whether they understand whether the increment occurs before or after the body of the loop. NO, it is NOT the whole test! 8. Draw out EXACTLY what the following program will display. #include main() { int x=8; while (x++<=13) printf("%4d%4d\n",x,x+x); } From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 23 20:50:07 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: [OT] Is there any place to pick up ISOs of RedHat 5.1? In-Reply-To: <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <20040624015007.GA22728@bos7.spole.gov> I know we've just been over why classiccmp is not fix-my-pc, but given the assembled folks, I'm hoping someone here might have or be able to provide a pointer to ISOs of RedHat 5.1 install discs. We have an experiment here (not mine) that depends on the older glibc to run. They aren't interested in rebuilding the software and requalifying it; they want to replace like with like and get on with things and not worry about upgrades until Summer (when they can't collect data anyway because the sun swamps out the instrument). So... if anyone has a copy of RH5.1, please let me know by private mail (to keep from further annoying the list members). I can initiate ftp and scp sessions from the firewall here, and if that won't fly, I can probably come up with an intermediary site into which you could ftp that I can pick up from. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2004 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.8 F (-62.7 C) Windchill -115.3 F (-81.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.19 kts Grid 096 Barometer 685.5 mb (10420. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 23 20:57:19 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040623135335.I70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040623135335.I70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040624015719.GB22728@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 02:32:04PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > Q: Current C compilers are written in C. > What was the FIRST C compiler written in? B? BCPL? Return Q: (and Amiga guys, give the rest of the class a chance to answer first ;-) What is a BCPL BPTR? What advantage does it have over an ordinary pointer in C? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2004 01:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.8 F (-62.2 C) Windchill -113.4 F (-80.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.9 kts Grid 094 Barometer 685.5 mb (10420. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 23 21:15:22 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E and PDP-8/M diff? In-Reply-To: <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> Message-ID: <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 01:43:52PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > If you're planning to gut an 8/M, I would be interested in > obtaining an empty chassis. I'd be interested in an empty -8/f chassis as well... I already have two KK8E board sets and several 4K and 8K core planes. An -8/m or -8/f chassis would be the perfect place to put the second set. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2004 02:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.4 F (-62.5 C) Windchill -112.9 F (-80.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.3 kts Grid 087 Barometer 685.4 mb (10424. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 21:17:02 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> References: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <20040623185144.B70782@newshell.lmi.net> > It was thus said that the Great Fred once stated: > > A few years ago, they dumpstered most of Monte's collection two > > weeks BEFORE the deadline that they had given him to remove it. > > I had to get my VT100 back from their dumpster. > > I was able to negotiate keeping a single 4 foot wide shelf > > of artifacts. But they threatened Monte with criminal > > prosecution if he went near the dumpsters. On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner wrote: > Um ... who's Monte, and why did they do such a horrible thing to him? "Rescue in Castro Valley", where he took stuff from the school dumpster (against administrative orders) but then got overwhelmed with other problems, and left it to a fate that was only slightly better than the dumpster. > > Wanna know WHY I'm grumpy? > I want to know why they're taking stuff away from you. That's insane! "Wouldn't showing your class a picture be just as good as showing them the real computer?" "It looks unprofessional to have all that junk [a single 5150 on a table at the side of the room] lying around." [a stack of 4 5150s] "is a fire hazard" [3 IBM mono monitors] "are toxic waste" [locked cabinets] "are a safety hazard" [a stack of 3 boxes of printer paper] "is a fire hazard" We are now not allowed to have more than 2 reams of paper in the room. "Doesn't the lab look so much better now, without all that junk, and with all of the machines the same?" They wouldn't let me put numbers on the workstations (so that a student could be a little more clear than "I'm at the machine that is kinda near the clock.") "The lab will look better without numbers cluttering it up." It wasn't just computers. One of the administrators has taken a WHOLE DAY fire safety class, and has declared that "ANY door that has a window with chicken wire in the window is a FIRE DOOR, and must be kept closed at all times.", and had the door stops removed from every door. In spite of the fact that we are talking about WOODEN doors, and none of the rooms have enough ventilation without propping the door open. They hired an incompetent consultant to decide what computers to get. He had an AA degree with a C average. They refused to let any of the instructors, all of whom have BAs, and most MAs, have any input. > Unless there's a concerted effort to remove education from "the great > unwashed masses" without "the great unwashed masses" from knowing ... No, but an apparent antipathy towards anybody who knows more than they do. > -spc (There seem to be plenty of trade schools left, but are there any > real universities?) We're a community college, but the answer is no. From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 21:30:42 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040624015719.GB22728@bos7.spole.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 24, 2004 01:57:19 AM Message-ID: <20040624023042.B305310B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Ethan Dicks once stated: > > Return Q: (and Amiga guys, give the rest of the class a chance to > answer first ;-) What is a BCPL BPTR? What advantage does it have > over an ordinary pointer in C? There's an advantage? 8-) -spc (One of the wierder things about AmigaDOS ... ) From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Jun 23 17:32:02 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623620FD1@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <20040624023112.YCRK26030.tomts20-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > That's disappointing as I've got one too. Given that its MCA I thought it would be at a premium and therefore quite valuable. > > The one I've got is in an IBM PS2 Model 60 but when I boot it I get some gobbledy-gook on screen which is not very promising - if anyone has any clues I'd be grateful. I thought of disabling the HD a> > Ahhhh such is life! Parker, Of course, if you have gotten thick paperback book of Muller's, this has whole lot of IBM PS/2 error codes. Or google. The info will help you to decode errors and act on that info. PS/2 stuff (not those PS2 (that's playstation 2, they do die easily. :-P) doesn't simply die easily. I still have couple PS/2 (70-Axx, P75) that still works. For example 1701 generally means hard drive problem, so on, it has several sub errors under that 1700 specific to hard drive system. Gee, been years since I last cracked that book for reference. :-O SWAG: There is about 200 or so error codes total for everything including several types of beeps. Whew. Cheers, Wizard From auryn at gci-net.com Wed Jun 23 21:33:55 2004 From: auryn at gci-net.com (auryn@gci-net.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406240029.UAA10951@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 19:58:38 -0400 (EDT) der Mouse wrote: > Knowing how to do it, though, involves learning enough of > the theory > behind it to stand you in good stead in other cases, > though. (Assuming > you actually understand it. Learning how to do it by > rote, without > understanding why, _is_ pretty pointless.) > > > I expect that there may well be a similar method for > the cube root. > > There is, but it is significantly more elaborate to > perform. > > Longhand square root extraction is based on (X+d)^2 = X^2 > + 2Xd + d^2. Exactly. Ditto for all the other roots (though it gets obscene *real* quick) > For example, to work out sqrt(15.5) (in decimal), we > start with the > first digit. (If you can't get the first digit right > without > assistance, you have no business trying something this > elaborate! :-) > > ___3.___________ > ) 15.50 00 00 00 > 9 6 > -- > 6 50 > > Now, we have written 15.5 = (3^2 + 2?3?d + d^2), with d > to be > determined. The 6.50 is 2?3?d + d^2. The 6 sitting off > at the right > is what I saw described as the memorandum column; it's > twice the I record these on the *left* -- as if I was preparing a long division and the "6x" was the divisor. Instead of "twice the root-so-far", I use "20 * root-so-far" -- same difference since this makes the "decimal shift left" more explicit. An example: 3 5 1 3 =========== 12 34 56 78 9 ----- 65) 3 34 3 25 -------- 701) 9 56 7 01 -------- 7020) 2 55 78 2 10 69 ----- 45 09 > root-so-far. Now, we look for a digit X such that 6X * X > <= 650 (this > is 2?3?d+d^2). We want the largest digit that fits; 9 > works, so we > fill it in, and write in and subtract off 69*9: [snip] > Usually, you can get the next digit right by looking at > just the high > digit or two of the memorandum column; only when it's > close to the edge > may you have to try multiplying out different choices in > full. In the > next position, for example, I'd look and say "55/7 = 7+, > let's try 7", > and indeed, 7 works (barely - the remainder is so low the > next two > digits of the root are zero). > > You can do the same thing for cube roots, writing > (N+d)^3=N^3+3N^2d+3Nd^2+d^3, but the arithmetic with the > memorandum > column becomes a good deal messier. Yes. And higher roots are reserved for monks with nothing else to pass their days... :-/ One of the subtle advantages of learning algorithms like these is the perspective it gives you on the design of other algorithms. E.g. iterative graphic drawing algorithms, etc. > If I needed a high-precision root, of course the last > steps would be > N-R. But under no-tools circumstances, it's unlikely the > root is > needed to more than about three significant digits > anyway. Yup. And, in many cases, what is more important is to get a "feel" for the answer -- not the answer itself. A gallon (US) of water weighs *about* 8 pounds. There are *about* 8 gallons in a cubic foot (to within 10%). So, a cubic foot of water weighs *about* 60 pounds. And, that 8*20*30 foot swimming pool holds *about* 350,000 pounds of water. (am I still within 10%?? ) One exercise I like doing with "kids" having problems with math is to pick *something* (a bushel of apples, a ceiling tile, a slab of cement in the sidewalk out front, etc.) and say, "If this is 10, show me what 100 would be" (trivial example). The point is just to get them to get an idea as to magnitudes and relative scales, etc. So, when the kid at the local grocery store rings up your *two* $9.95 items and tells you the total is *$40*, you can just smile and say "What's wrong with this picture?" --don From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 21:39:49 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406240119.VAA11422@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 23, 2004 09:15:36 PM Message-ID: <20040624023949.063D410B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > But if we're going to go into gotchas of C, what's wrong with this code? > > [compressed vertically to save space -dM] > > void foo(char *s) > > { int charcount[256]; memset(charcount,0,sizeof(charcount)); > > for ( ; *s ; s++) { charcount[*s]++; } > > } > > Nothing...on machines where char is 8-bit unsigned. :-) Technically, the sign of a char is compiler dependent, not system dependent. It wouldn't surprise me at all if say, the IRIX compiler treated unspecified chars as signed, and GCC unsigned (I don't recall anymore the details under IRIX---it's been too many years). The code would be better written as: #include void foo(char *s) { size_t charcount[-CHAR_MIN + CHAR_MAX]; memset(charcount,0,sizeof(charcount)); for ( ; *s ; s++) charcount[*s + -CHAR_MIN]++; } -spc (Who probably uses limits.h more than other programmers he knows ...) From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 23 21:50:00 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <20040624025000.94F11616F@outbox.allstream.net> Picked up 6 Morrow MD computers this past weekend. All appear to work, however I have one with floppy drive trouble ... The drives in question are TEC FB-503 1/2 height 5.25" drives. Only one of the machines has these drives. What is odd is that both drives in the one machine will not read diskettes (report disk error - won't even boot). Only one machine has these drives - when it failed to boot, I first tried cleaning it - no improvement - then tried swapping for 'B' drive - still no improvement - now thinking that diskette controller is faulty. Then I swapped in a Panasonic drive from my parts shelf, and voila - boot & access disk no problem. Seems really odd that two identical drives would fail so completely in the same way when all of the other 10 drives appear to be OK. I thought that perhaps they were 80 track drives or some such, however Issue #1 of the "Morrow Owners Review" has an artical about the floppy drives used in the MD's, and it lists the TEC/NSA 5503, which looks like these drives - Can't say for sure if they are the same ones, as the model number stated does differ slightly from what is on the drive plate, but if they are the same, the artical makes no mention of anything special about them... Does anyone know anything about these drives? Are they 80 track or otherwise "odd"? Are they known to have a high failure rate (especially with age)? Any info would be appreciated. Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Jun 23 21:49:58 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: A pack of Morrows available in Toronto Message-ID: <20040624024958.0334C614E@outbox.allstream.net> At 21:03 13/04/2004 -0400, you wrote: >I've been contacted by someone with "5 or 6" Morrow MD-3s, a couple of >MD-2s, and maybe an MD-11 (she's not sure). Most are working, and they come >with lots of software. She wants some money for them, but I'm not sure how >much. Drop me a note if you want me to put you in touch with her. The >systems are in Toronto. > >--Mike Just a follow-up in case anyone is interested... I finally made it to Toronto this past weekend and picked up the Morrows. In total, there were 7 machines, of which one was given to York university. I received 6 Micro Decision machines of which two are MD-2's, and 4 are MD-3's, All appear to work! I also received 5 terminals, 3 Morrow OEM versions of the "Liberty 100", one Morrow MDT-60 (can't find any other manufactorer name), and a Morrow OEM ADM-20 by Leir Siegler. I haven't tested all of them yet, but the ADM-209 does work. The "mistery" machine was not an MD-11, it was another MD-2 with the odd looking 2/3 height SA-200 drives, and paired with the ADM-20 terminal - this is in fact the exact configuration shown in all of the Morrow advertising materials for the MD's that I have been able to locate. There is a fair bit of software, including a CP/M edition of Wordstar for which the diskette packet has never been opened! I also have a full compliment of Morrow manuals. Still have lots to go over - Pics and other material will appear on my site within the next few weeks. I'd be interested in corresponding with anyone having experience with Morrows, especially the MD series. Please see my next posting for a inquiry involving a "floppy drive oddity". Regards, -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 21:50:44 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040623185144.B70782@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 23, 2004 07:17:02 PM Message-ID: <20040624025044.A109A10B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > > > Wanna know WHY I'm grumpy? > > I want to know why they're taking stuff away from you. That's insane! > > "Wouldn't showing your class a picture be just as good as showing > them the real computer?" > "It looks unprofessional to have all that junk > [a single 5150 on a table at the side of the room] > lying around." > [a stack of 4 5150s] "is a fire hazard" So is all that loose oxygen in the air. Best have that removed too. > [3 IBM mono monitors] "are toxic waste" > [locked cabinets] "are a safety hazard" > [a stack of 3 boxes of printer paper] "is a fire hazard" You know, after reading that, I'm surprised my condo didn't spontaneously combust with the EPA fining me for having a toxic waste dump. Sheesh. > They wouldn't let me put numbers on the workstations > (so that a student could be a little more clear than > "I'm at the machine that is kinda near the clock.") > "The lab will look better without numbers cluttering > it up." You know, letting the students use the computers is just asking for trouble. Best to let the administrator know that so he can, you know, ban anyone from actually *using* the computers and soiling the keyboards and monitors. > They hired an incompetent consultant to decide what computers to get. > He had an AA degree with a C average. > They refused to let any of the instructors, all of whom > have BAs, and most MAs, have any input. What an incompetent consluttant. What he should have done was ask all the instructors what they wanted and then told that to the administration. -spc (I'm beginning to think that mail order diploma mills are at least honest about what they're ofering ... ) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 22:20:15 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040624025044.A109A10B2C98@swift.conman.org> References: <20040624025044.A109A10B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <20040623201213.Q70782@newshell.lmi.net> > > "Wouldn't showing your class a picture be just as good as showing > > them the real computer?" > You know, letting the students use the computers is just asking for > trouble. Best to let the administrator know that so he can, you know, ban > anyone from actually *using* the computers and soiling the keyboards and > monitors. We used to run our own lab. We have always claimed that for teaching computers, we need a different setup than is used for students word processing history papers. We need to UNLOCK everything, and let the students change wallpaper, registry, and ANYTHING else, and then be able to quickly and easily restore machines back to a "default" configuration. But they have taken control of our lab away from us, and even installing a different compiler requires submitting to them. Everything is LOCKED, and students can't even get to the control panel. For a while, their lockdown was misinterpreting compiler usage as unauthorized attempts to install programs. (creating .EXE files on the machine!) But they did fix THAT. > > They hired an incompetent consultant to decide what computers to get. > What an incompetent consluttant. What he should have done was ask all the > instructors what they wanted and then told that to the administration. His biggest screwup was a refusal to accept that CIS needs different systems than English. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 22:07:12 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406240330.XAA11928@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > A gallon (US) of water weighs *about* 8 pounds. There are *about* 8 > gallons in a cubic foot (to within 10%). So, a cubic foot of water > weighs *about* 60 pounds. And, that 8*20*30 foot swimming pool holds > *about* 350,000 pounds of water. (am I still within 10%?? ) No, but within 20%. I fired up units and did the work to decent precision (28.316847 litres in a cubic foot, 2.2046226 kilograms in a pound[%]. Looking at my CRC, I see that the density of water varies comparatively little with temperature, less than 5% difference between the 4? and 100? figures; using the approximation that 1 litre weighs 1 kilogram[%], I get 8*20*30*28.316847*2.2046226 = 299654+ pounds. Given that 5% variation and a few other errors (the density of water is not quite 1 g/cc even at 3.98?), that figure looks more precise than it is, but even putting all the errors together and assuming they all go in the same direction, I can't get to within 10% of 350000lb. [%] Strictly, this is a units clash; a kilogram is a mass unit, whereas pounds and other weights are force. For the picky, read kilogram-weight for kilogram throughout. > So, when the kid at the local grocery store rings up your *two* $9.95 > items and tells you the total is *$40*, you can just smile and say > "What's wrong with this picture?" Uhhh...a recent sales tax increase? :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 22:31:09 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040624023949.063D410B2C98@swift.conman.org> References: <20040624023949.063D410B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: <200406240333.XAA11956@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The code would be better written as: [compressed again -dM] > #include > void foo(char *s) > { size_t charcount[-CHAR_MIN + CHAR_MAX]; > memset(charcount,0,sizeof(charcount)); > for ( ; *s ; s++) charcount[*s + -CHAR_MIN]++; } Okay, class, now who can find the bug in _this_ version? (Yes, there is one.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign onetime comp.lang.c maven X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 23 22:34:07 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: [OT] Is there any place to pick up ISOs of RedHat 5.1? In-Reply-To: <20040624015007.GA22728@bos7.spole.gov> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <20040624015007.GA22728@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <200406240335.XAA11996@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I can initiate ftp and scp sessions from the firewall here, and if > that won't fly, I can probably come up with an intermediary site into > which you could ftp that I can pick up from. I run such an ftp site. Let me know off-list if you need to use it for such things (I'm deliberately writing this on-list in case others are in similar circumstances). I don't want to become an open trading point for data, but occasional help to my co-classiccmpers is no problem. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 23 22:35:35 2004 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <20040623143704.F70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <1088004004.11575.18.camel@weka.localdomain> <200406231606.MAA08187@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <40D9DF53.2030709@ox.compsoc.net> <20040623134524.V70782@newshell.lmi.net> <40D9EF5E.8080307@mdrconsult.com> <20040623143704.F70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <40DA4C07.2040102@mdrconsult.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > A lot of students panic. > "open book" helps a little > leaving the room helps a little > They won't let me serve alcohol on campus. One examinee showed up with a bottle of lemonade on test day. A Suaza Hornitas bottle, that is. Great ice-breaker. > I write "Don't Panic!" on the board. But those who need that advice most, > won't listen to it. > About 5 minutes before the end, I erase the "Don't". *kneels in awe* You really _are_ a bastard.... ;^) Doc From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 23 22:38:42 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040623201213.Q70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040624025044.A109A10B2C98@swift.conman.org> <20040623201213.Q70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20040623203231.J70782@newshell.lmi.net> > > > "Wouldn't showing your class a picture be just as good as showing > > > them the real computer?" Correcting an incorrect system time requires pleading with admin, or cracking the admin password (easier) In one of the labs, USB drives (flash memory) are banned, "because they might have viruses". They permit floppies, and the CMOS is set to boot from floppy! If I want to use the DDJ "algorithms books" CD-ROM, then I need to install the access software, and hide it or remove all trace of it when I'm done. One of the campuses has a unix box that we host some websites on. The central administration has declared that that has to go, and that ALL faculty websites must be designed and administered by them. There are NO gruntled employees here. From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 23:34:38 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040623203231.J70782@newshell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 23, 2004 08:38:42 PM Message-ID: <20040624043438.7A0F210B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > One of the campuses has a unix box that we host some > websites on. The central administration has declared > that that has to go, and that ALL faculty websites > must be designed and administered by them. When I was in college, the department (non-academic) that ran the physical network (and controlled DNS, plus the dial-up modem bank) wanted to run email for the entire campus. I can see say, the English Department taking them up on this, as their expertise is not system administration, but English. But at that time, there were a few departments that refused to go along (and it wasn't like the network department was offering to handle email---no, they *wanted* to the *only* interface for email for the entire campus), like Computer Science Department, and the Ocean Engineering Department [1]. That was then. I've since heard that this department [2] now handles *all* email for the entire campus. Not even the Computer Science Department can handle email. It actually wouldn't surprise me if you now have to jump through hoops to get a public IP address at that college [3]. -spc (As the professor I worked for used to say, "The politics are so fierce *because* the stakes are so small.") [1] The Ocean Engineering program at my college was top in the nation, even beating out MIT's Ocean Engineering department. [2] This is the same department that ran a widely used VAX system. One night when they shut down the VAX, they also shut down the dial-up modem bank, because, well, if the VAX is down, they didn't want people dialing up trying to use it. Never mind the fact that there were, oh, a hundred other computers that could be used on campus from the modem bank. [3] It has a Class-B [4] network block. [4] Or a /16 for those that now use CDIR. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 22:40:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <005c01c45972$6822a020$5b01a8c0@athlon> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 23, 4 11:35:38 pm Message-ID: > > > And presumably stage 3 is to grab a VAX11/7xx printset, > > figure out the microinstruction word, then disassemble the > > appropriate bit of the microocde and understand how it works. > > If you have access to the appropriate printset, that > might be an option. I don't have it on paper - I know > that some of the 780 stuff is up at bitsavers, but I > don't know whether any of the available prints have > microcode listings. AFAIK they don't contain microcode listings (some of the PDP11 ones do, but those machines don't have the POLY instruction). What I was suggesting (semi-seriously, I did this sort of thing for fun when I was an undergrad) was taking the printset and working out what the microcode word bits actually did. Then possibly writing a cross-disassembler for said microcode. THen taking the microcode binaries (IIRC the 11/7xx loads its microcode from TU58 or RX01 when it boots. Then commenting the appropriate bits for the POLY routine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 22:47:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088030859.11575.136.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 23, 4 10:47:39 pm Message-ID: > Well, in a modern context I wish some testing at degree level was done > without the ability to use a calculator. Mental arithmetic is another > one of those basic skills which does come in handy from time to time, > plus it helps keep the brain sharp. Another very useful skill is being able to make sensible estimates and approximations (e.g. \pi^2 ~= g ~= `10. All too often I've had students give ridiculous errors (I remember one idiot who tried to convince me that Planck's constant, based on his experimental results was something around 10^9Js (!)) and not realise that they are _way_ out (in the above case, the student had dropped many powers of ten in his calculations). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 23:17:08 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406232342.TAA10660@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 23, 4 07:05:12 pm Message-ID: > >> I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their heads... > > Now, what about non-restoring long division? > > What's that? "Restoring" is not an adjective I know of any meaning for > when attached to "log division". (I may know the referent, of course; > I'm just sure I don't know the reference.) It's a way of saving half an ALU operation per bit on average. I'll try to explain it in binary (although it works in any base, and a friend of mine has a mechanical calculator which does something similar in base 10). OK, think of the normal long division algorithm : Compare the divisor with the (shifted) remainder from the last time round the loop. (1st ALU operation, a compare) If it's divisor larger, append a 0 to the RH end of the quotient If it's smaller, subtract the dvisior from the remainder, then append a 1 to the RH end of the quotient (2nd ALU operation, a possible subtract, occurs half the time on average). Shift the remainder left one bit (this is equivalent to moving the divisor right one bit, of course, but reduces the size of the ALU you to that of the divisor, not the dividend). So on average 1.5 ALU operations per bit. Now for the 'magic'. The following is obviously equivalent : Subtract the divisor from the remainder (the result may well be -ve here, of course) [I want to put LABEL A here, for a reason I'll explain below] If the result is -ve, then you really shouldn't have done that subtraction. Add the divisor back (this is the 'restoring' part), append a 0 to the RH end of the quotient. If the result is +ve, you should have done the subtraction. Leave the remained alone, append a 1 to the RH end of the quotient Shift the remainder left one bit (as above). Now consider what happens to the remainder (let's call it R) as we go round the loop form LABEL A to LABEL A (note this is not the start of the loop as I've given it). If the quotient bit is a 1 : R := 2*R ; (that's the left shift by 1 bit) R := R-D ; (that's the subtact at the start of the next loop) So overall R := 2*R-D If the quotient bit is a 0 : R := R+D ; (restoration) R : = 2*R ; (left shift) R : = R-D ; (Subtract at the start of the next loop) And overall R := 2*(R+D) - D, or R := 2*R + D So this gives another algorithm : If the result of the previous subtraction was +ve, append a 1 to the RH end quotiend and subtract the divisor from the remainder If the result of the pevious subtraction was -ve, append a 0 to the RH end of the quotient and add the divisor to the remainder Shift the remainder left one bit (Oh, and always start by doing a subtraction). This takes 1 ALU operation per bit. > > >>> How many even know the square root of 2 and 3? > >> 2.236+ ;-) > > No, that's the square root of 2+3. > > ...which is one of the possible meanings of the text quoted. I know, I was being a little eccentric :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 22:52:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <1088031561.11575.143.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 23, 4 10:59:21 pm Message-ID: > look it up anywhere. It's almost as though not only is knowledge being > thrown away, but nobody even *wants* to think any more. Didn't I say much the same thing a couple of days back? This is much more worrying than whether students are still taught about valves (or machine code, or...). If you know how to find something out, then you probably will be able to find it out if you need to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 23 23:33:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) In-Reply-To: <20040624025000.94F11616F@outbox.allstream.net> from "Dave Dunfield" at Jun 23, 4 10:50:00 pm Message-ID: > > Picked up 6 Morrow MD computers this past weekend. > > All appear to work, however I have one with floppy drive > trouble ... > > The drives in question are TEC FB-503 1/2 height 5.25" > drives. Only one of the machines has these drives. [..] > > I thought that perhaps they were 80 track drives or some such, Are there any letters after the FD-503 part of the number? In general Teac suffixes tell you the number of heads and cylinders. > Does anyone know anything about these drives? Are they 80 track > or otherwise "odd"? Are they known to have a high failure rate > (especially with age)? Any info would be appreciated. Does the disk rotate? Does the head seek to cylinder 0 at power on? Have you tried looking at the ReadData line on the interface connector with a 'scope or logic analyser? -tony From spc at conman.org Wed Jun 23 23:51:53 2004 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406240333.XAA11956@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 23, 2004 11:31:09 PM Message-ID: <20040624045153.3C85C10B2C98@swift.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great der Mouse once stated: > > > The code would be better written as: > [compressed again -dM] > > #include > > void foo(char *s) > > { size_t charcount[-CHAR_MIN + CHAR_MAX]; > > memset(charcount,0,sizeof(charcount)); > > for ( ; *s ; s++) charcount[*s + -CHAR_MIN]++; } > > Okay, class, now who can find the bug in _this_ version? (Yes, there > is one.) Sigh. Off-by-one error in declaring the array. -spc (Finally found it ... X-/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 24 00:06:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406240517.BAA23734@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their heads... >>> Now, what about non-restoring long division? >> What's that? > It's a way of saving half an ALU operation per bit on average. Well, if you're doing it in a real CPU... while (appropriate condition) Subtract the divisor from the shifted remainder If the result is positive or zero replace the remainder with it shift a 1 bit into the quotient negative shift a 0 bit into the quotient Shift the remainder left one bit (possibly shifting in a new dividend bit if the dividend is wider than the divisor) Functionally equivalent. It does require either a register to hold the difference or the ability to block/permit the store based on the sign bit of the difference, which presumably isn't an issue if you're designing the silicon. :-) The algorithm you gave requires one bit of storage to remember the result of the previous subtract, which may be easier or harder than the gated store, depending.... Of course, if this is for doing division in software on a machine that doesn't have it, then that doesn't apply - but in that case, you probably care more about clock cycles than ALU operations per se. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 24 00:30:40 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:48 2005 Subject: FW: Australia Computer Museum in trouble Message-ID: <200406232230400662.0FFE72A6@192.168.42.129> Hi, gang, I figured this article would be of interest. Apparently, the Australian Computer Museum is on the verge of losing their space due to lack of funds. http://slashdot.org/articles/04/06/23/1254203.shtml?tid=126&tid=137 Keep the peace(es). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From evan947 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 00:53:47 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Yet another same-old, same-old classic gaming article Message-ID: <20040624055347.14259.qmail@web52807.mail.yahoo.com> http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=1&u=/ap/20040623/ap_on_hi_te/retro_video_games_8 I have to laugh when I see stories like this one. On one hand, I'm laughing for joy, since any such mainstream press (of gaming or computers) is great for the growth of our hobby. On the other hand, I'm laughing at the sillyness, because every few months some new reporter hears about our hobby, writes the SAME story about Atari joysticks, and thinks he or she is the one who scooped it. (As a reporter myself and a collector, you can see why I find this funny.) The same thing happened with VoIP. I was technology editor of Internet Telephony magazine from early 1998 to mid-2000. But in the past few years, every mainstream reporter heard that, hey, you can make free phone calls using your PC and the Internet... (which of course is about 1/25 of the real business-class intentions of the VoIP industry.) Anyway, I'm just pointing out that there's another article about our cousins in the classic gaming world... thought ya'll might care. :) PLEASE don't use this as another reason for a million replies about how bad "the press" is. (Honestly, it hurts my feelings.) From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Jun 24 02:57:43 2004 From: lgwalker at mts.net (lgwalker@mts.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 54 In-Reply-To: <200406212029.i5LKTIhg057248@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <40DA2707.12769.28A29B4@localhost> > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 11:58:45 +0100 > From: "Geoffrey Thomas" > Subject: Re: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & > headcount... ; -)) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <000101c457bc$253c6640$bb72fea9@geoff> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Don't forget that there is more then one generation at work in an industry > > at one time. Lots of people on this email list probably work with younger > > techs who don't know half of what they do. Once the senior people retire > (or > > get fired because they cost too much on a spreadsheet) its up to the > younger > > ones to pull the slack (if they were smart enough to hire any before the > old > > ones got the boot), and quite a few are not up to the task. It takes time > to > > notice your workforce is deficient, and by then its too late to do > anything > > about it. > > This is what has happened to the rail industry in Britain, it frightens me > to think of the skills that have been lost -particularly in track > maintenance -not very high tech. you may think , but the number of > crashes/accidents we've had since privatisation started on an accountant's > spreadsheet. The fact that the industry now swallows more money for an > inferior service is common knowledge , we all know where the money goes > (went - it's called asset stripping ) but vested interest and political > lethargy prevent any radical solution.As with our health service there is > now an inverted bloated bureaucratic pyramid stuffed full of accountants and > clerks. > > Geoff. I worked many years in the rail running trades in Canada. As in many countries the workforce has been slashed, while the top end has ballooned. The caboose which was once the last human warning source has been replaced by a sensor. Sensors can't see anomalies such as a "hot-box" on passing trains or problems with the boxcar string itself. As we all know electronics are plagued with many anomalies. And even the best software designers can not possibly duplicate the warning signs learned by many years of experience of being there. Does the public think that a computer can duplicate the knowledge of a flight controller ? We have many years to go to replace the often flawed knowledge of humans but bean counters should be easily replaced and the "decision-makers" were outmoded years ago if sufficient will were available. Watch out for "Hal" tho, he might be a clone of some psychotic Enron "executive" Lawrence From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Jun 24 01:24:17 2004 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Origins of C (was: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was:Modern In-Reply-To: <20040623165651.W70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003601c459b3$e07fb3a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> > > There was a 'B' as well. I don't recall hearing about a 'A'. > > Dwight > > There was a predecessor to C, that was mostly theoretical, > and rarely implemented named BCPL. (Fred) >From this side of the Atlantic things look slightly different - as usual :-) "in the beginning" there was CPL Designed as an "all purpose" programming language (in the same way as PL/I). As far as I can tell only one implementation (and that incomplete?) existed on the Atlas. It was "a byte too far" in terms of the capabilities of the time. Could well be described as "mostly theoretical and rarely implemented". A subset of this (BCPL) was designed and used as an implementation language for CPL. It became a (reasonably) widely implemented and used language on British computers of the era (because it was easy to port). So not "rarely implemented". Its real failing was an assumption of word (rather than character) addressing. B was a reworking of BCPL that was more in the form of a PL/I subset. As far as I am aware it was only implemented on the GE/Honeywell 36-bit machines but was a popular implementation language for those. We used it on our GCOS III system - I think that we only wrote 3 or 4 modules in GMAP (thank heavens!) C was essentially a reworking of B to be suitable for character-addressed machines. I had assumed that the first C compiler had been written in B - I am pleased to be corrected. Was the assembler version written directly as such or as hand-translated pseudo-code? Andy From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Thu Jun 24 02:04:26 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 help/info needed. Message-ID: <1088060666.25929.199076614@webmail.messagingengine.com> I just today acquired an apparently stock Amiga 2000. Unfortunately, I have no boot disk for it & it has no hard drive. I cannot get it to show the "Insert Disk" animation (does it even have this?). The screen flashes between gray & white. My apologies for the stupid questions, but Amigas are new animals to me! From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 23 22:24:51 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ^_^ meay-meay! Message-ID: I don't bite, weah! password -- 80660 From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Thu Jun 24 04:14:00 2004 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: >> Then you'll know why the HV supply is almost invariably voltage >> doubled AC and not rectified and smothed DC. From: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk > I know it is (the magnetron itself is one of the diodes in the doubler, > along with one capacitor and a semiconductor diode), but I don't actually > know _why_. Presumably it's to simplify the insulation of the transformer > or something. Water molecules [1] have three resonant frequencies around 2.45GHz and to couple the H field microwave energy into the water you need to be operating at one of these frequencies. A magnetron when used as an oscillator has a frequency that is voltage and output load dependant, so having a varying supply will sweep the frequency across the whole operating range. When you get near a resonant frequency the output load changes and this bcomes the dominating effect until the voltage changes enough to pull the frequency to the next resonant point. This way you can be sure to couple most of the energy into the water. From: Dwight K. Elvey > Also, once the magnetron gets to the threshold voltage, it likes to > run at a constant volage. ... If you try to feed it with a fixed voltage, > it will destroy the tube. Magnetrons, even those in microwave ovens, can be run from a constant (fixed) voltage without any danger of destroying the tube. This works whether using it as an oscillator or an amplifier. Lee. [1] other OH bonds will absorb energy in this band such as those in carbohydrates, but not nearly as well. ________________________________________________________________________ This e-mail has been scanned for all viruses by Star Internet. The service is powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working around the clock, around the globe, visit: http://www.star.net.uk ________________________________________________________________________ From cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 23 23:48:44 2004 From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Weeeeee! ;))) Message-ID: Looking forward for a response :P pass: 77600 From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 24 05:23:10 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 help/info needed. References: <1088060666.25929.199076614@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <004e01c459d5$40b77ed0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Vohs" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 3:04 AM Subject: Amiga 2000 help/info needed. > I just today acquired an apparently stock Amiga 2000. Unfortunately, I > have no boot disk for it & it has no hard drive. I cannot get it to show > the "Insert Disk" animation (does it even have this?). The screen > flashes between gray & white. > > My apologies for the stupid questions, but Amigas are new animals to me! > Normal boot up color sequences: a.. dark gray initial hardware & cpu test passed o.k. b.. light gray initial software passed o.k. c.. white ram tested, system starts up. Error occurred when screen color is: a.. red rom error, replace or re-seat kickstart rom(s) b.. green chip ram error c.. blue custom chip(s) error d.. yellow 68000 detected error before software trapped it, check coldcapture, expect a guru e.. blank screen whilst running & resulting in a1000 kickstart prompt, indicating that programmable logic array chips are being overloaded, and are of the inferior type Did you pop the cover off to see what's going on inside? If you have a processor upgrade board that's not installed correctly (or has failed) you will not boot. A leaking battery could have eaten into the motherboard also causing damage. While your taking a peek inside for loose cards make a note of all devices plugged into the machine along with the BIOS chip revisions and motherboard revisions, these will come handy later on when you are looking for OS disks. From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 24 05:21:44 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <20040624102144.A6E925DCA@outbox.allstream.net> Hi tony, >> I thought that perhaps they were 80 track drives or some such, > >Are there any letters after the FD-503 part of the number? In general >Teac suffixes tell you the number of heads and cylinders. Is TEC (Tokyo Electric Company) TEAC? No extra letters - I'm pretty sure they are standard 40 track drives, but I have not been able to dig up any hard info so far. >> Does anyone know anything about these drives? Are they 80 track >> or otherwise "odd"? Are they known to have a high failure rate >> (especially with age)? Any info would be appreciated. > >Does the disk rotate? Does the head seek to cylinder 0 at power on? Have >you tried looking at the ReadData line on the interface connector with a >'scope or logic analyser? Drives spin and seek - everything looks normal except that they reseek a couple of times and then report an error - haven't scoped the read data yet (this weekend). Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From wolfgang at eichberger.org Thu Jun 24 06:41:43 2004 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (wolfgang@eichberger.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Commodore/PET Cassette to PC transfer... Message-ID: <200406241141.i5OBfhOw013899@everymail-A16-C01.everymail.net> Hi, I'm on this list for a while now, mostly passive as reader... This week I tried to get some of my older PET/CBM Cassettes onto my PC. This Tapes are originally written with a Rom- upgraded Pet 2001 (the model with cricklet-keys) around 1980. Everythings working so far, I have a digital image now in case the tapes fail. But I really would like to convert the (now wave)files to an emulator readable format. I tried tapeload, tape64 and wavprg and had nearly no success. Is someone out there with some more experience on this? The Pet's datasette is a little buggy at the moment, so I'd like a standard Audio Deck. Maybe It is an issue that I only have a stereo deck? At http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/crossplatform/transfer/datassett e/index.html are plenty of infos, but I have no Idea where to start... Regards, Wolfgang Eichberger PS.: I'd really like to obtain a disk-drive for my Pets, in case theres someone who has one for sale or so... From wolfgang at eichberger.org Thu Jun 24 06:41:44 2004 From: wolfgang at eichberger.org (wolfgang@eichberger.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Commodore/PET Cassette to PC transfer... Message-ID: <200406241141.i5OBfiDT013905@everymail-A16-C01.everymail.net> Hi, I'm on this list for a while now, mostly passive as reader... This week I tried to get some of my older PET/CBM Cassettes onto my PC. This Tapes are originally written with a Rom- upgraded Pet 2001 (the model with cricklet-keys) around 1980. Everythings working so far, I have a digital image now in case the tapes fail. But I really would like to convert the (now wave)files to an emulator readable format. I tried tapeload, tape64 and wavprg and had nearly no success. Is someone out there with some more experience on this? The Pet's datasette is a little buggy at the moment, so I'd like a standard Audio Deck. Maybe It is an issue that I only have a stereo deck? At http://www.funet.fi/pub/cbm/crossplatform/transfer/datassett e/index.html are plenty of infos, but I have no Idea where to start... Regards, Wolfgang Eichberger PS.: I'd really like to obtain a disk-drive for my Pets, in case theres someone who has one for sale or so... From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Jun 24 07:40:37 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Australia Computer Museum in trouble In-Reply-To: <200406232230400662.0FFE72A6@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: Looking through the site, it appears that this may be too late. According to the site they needed do vacate the warehouse at the end of last year. I have seen no updates. Hopefully any and all resources are safe. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Lane >>> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 1:31 AM >>> To: cctech@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: FW: Australia Computer Museum in trouble >>> >>> Hi, gang, >>> >>> I figured this article would be of interest. >>> Apparently, the Australian Computer Museum is on the verge >>> of losing their space due to lack of funds. >>> >>> http://slashdot.org/articles/04/06/23/1254203.shtml?tid=126&tid=137 >>> >>> Keep the peace(es). >>> >>> >>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>> Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather >>> Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) >>> bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a >>> computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" >>> >>> From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 24 08:34:22 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <33EB9088-C5E3-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 24 Jun 2004, at 09:13, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > >> From: "der Mouse" >> >>> Q: Current C compilers are written in C. >>> What was the FIRST C compiler written in? >> >> Was there a well-defined "first C compiler"? I'm not sure there was. >> The language we know today as C has evolved over many years, and it's >> hard to find an obvious place to draw a "before this was not C" line. > > Hi > There was a 'B' as well. I don't recall hearing about a 'A'. Of course not. BCPL lead to B which lead to C. And in some sense CPL lead to BCPL. Some (OK. me :-) would argue that moving from left to right might not have been an improvement. I'm far enough South to appreciate the flames that this will ignite, although Ethan would appreciate the heat even more .... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Thu Jun 24 08:34:24 2004 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ^_^ meay-meay! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406240634240915.11B95501@192.168.42.129> Can we PLEASE switch the list to 'Posting Allowed for Members Only!' mode? Or, if it is already in 'Members Only' mode, please TERMINATE the account of whoever's responsible for the attached idiocy? It's getting really old. Thanks much. *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 24-Jun-04 at 05:24 cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org wrote: >I don't bite, weah! > >password -- 80660 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 24 08:37:10 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Origins of C (was: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040623165651.W70782@newshell.lmi.net> References: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> <20040623165651.W70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <97D85740-C5E3-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 24 Jun 2004, at 10:17, Fred Cisin wrote: > > There was a predecessor to C, that was mostly theoretical, > and rarely implemented named BCPL. The confusion over whether > the sequence was A B C D v B C P L led to: Well BCPL was so theoretical that it was used to implement Tripos and some multitasking operating system for the Amiga (which was the major reason that I purchased my A2000 in preference to a Mac). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 24 08:38:38 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) References: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com><40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net> Message-ID: <005901c459f0$8e926b40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Interesting. I've been attending MIT Flea for 10 years, and > was just lamenting with friends about how nothing resembling > "vintage stuff" even appears there anymore - The MIT, as with other flea markets that I've seen has a sweet spot of 6 year old equipment, plus or minus 3 years, that can be found. ( 20 years ago it might have been 8 +/- 4 ) When the thing you're looking for is older than that, it was tough even before eBay. This lesson I learned, hard, with a desired IBM 5100. The Suns and Macs mentioned this month can be augmented with a 1990 Canon video still camera, and large quantities of Alphas and SGI's seen last time out, all of which will be gone gone gone in 10 years. John A. From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 24 08:40:16 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Origins of C (was: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was:Modern In-Reply-To: <003601c459b3$e07fb3a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> References: <003601c459b3$e07fb3a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: <06E3052E-C5E4-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 24 Jun 2004, at 16:24, Andy Holt wrote: > A subset of this (BCPL) was designed and used as an implementation > language > for CPL. > It became a (reasonably) widely implemented and used language on > British > computers of the era (because it was easy to port). So not "rarely > implemented". Its real failing was an assumption of word (rather than > character) addressing. At the time BCPL was implemented this wasn't such a bad assumption. I'm fairly sure that most computers at the time in the UK were word rather than byte addressed. I did all (well really most) of my BCPL programming on a DECsystem-10 where bytes had a completely different interpretation to the commonly accepted IBMism. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 24 08:45:26 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <003601c4594f$0efe45d0$5b01a8c0@athlon> References: <003601c4594f$0efe45d0$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: On 24 Jun 2004, at 04:22, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > Presumably for stage two you have them explain > why the POLYx instructions (which are in microcode > in the early VAXen) were subsetted out later on. And why other instructions which looked good to the designers were never used by the compilers (or programmers who did some instruction timings). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Jun 24 08:50:37 2004 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78B26C7C-C5E5-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 24 Jun 2004, at 07:51, Tony Duell wrote: > Of course there are things you remember -- the pinout of the 74x00, > 74x74, etc is burned into my brain. Not because I sat down and learnt > said pinouts, but because I've used those chips so often that I > remember > them, But I couldn't give you the pinout of some of the more obscure > TTL > chips, or of most microprocessors, or... I look those up. I don't think > this makes me any less of a designer either. Acknowledging that you don't pretend to know everything means that you are more than just a pretend engineer (I was going to use the word wanker but this is a family mailing list :-). Tony please don't take this as something personal, it's just I'm fed up with (generally younger IT people telling me how to suck eggs...). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 24 08:47:39 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ^_^ meay-meay! References: <200406240634240915.11B95501@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <013001c459f1$d0991420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Non member posts are already held for moderation, and manually deleted. That's why the two people doing list moderation right now should be thanks for going through literally hundreds of posts (spam) per day. The problem is the posts are apparently coming from the -bounces account, which must be let through. I will do some digging into this further. Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Lane" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 8:34 AM Subject: Re: ^_^ meay-meay! > Can we PLEASE switch the list to 'Posting Allowed for Members Only!' mode? > > Or, if it is already in 'Members Only' mode, please TERMINATE the account of whoever's responsible for the attached idiocy? It's getting really old. > > Thanks much. > > *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** > > On 24-Jun-04 at 05:24 cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org wrote: > > >I don't bite, weah! > > > >password -- 80660 > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped with surreal ports?" > > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 24 09:06:00 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> Message-ID: > > A few years ago, they dumpstered most of Monte's collection two > > weeks BEFORE the deadline that they had given him to remove it. > > I had to get my VT100 back from their dumpster. > > I was able to negotiate keeping a single 4 foot wide shelf > > of artifacts. But they threatened Monte with criminal > > prosecution if he went near the dumpsters. > > Um ... who's Monte, and why did they do such a horrible thing to him? > More importantly, why didn't they suffer the debilitating(sp) effects of blunt force trauma for doing such a thing? g. From thompson at new.rr.com Thu Jun 24 08:57:03 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ^_^ meay-meay! In-Reply-To: <200406240634240915.11B95501@192.168.42.129> References: <200406240634240915.11B95501@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Bruce Lane wrote: > Or, if it is already in 'Members Only' mode, please TERMINATE the > account of whoever's responsible for the attached idiocy? It's getting > really old. > They seem to be coming from the same IP address: 200.0.214.34. It looks like from some place in Argentina. I have had trouble finding an address to LART to. 24 Jun 2004 03:42:58 -0500 Received: from calidad.Rafalim ([200.0.214.34]) by huey.classiccmp.org (8.12.8p1/8.12.8) with SMTP id i5O8dYhd088060 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2004 03:39:35 -0500 From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 24 09:06:48 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern References: <20040623135335.I70782@newshell.lmi.net> <200406232301.TAA10445@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16602.57336.915527.739072@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> Q: Current C compilers are written in C. What was the FIRST C >> compiler written in? Mostly in PDP11 assembler. It's online somewhere... (the old Bell Labs unices are around, going back to fragments of V3.) paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 24 09:11:19 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Origins of C (was: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern References: <200406232313.QAA18381@clulw009.amd.com> <20040623165651.W70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <16602.57607.320161.474951@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: Fred> But C++ claims to be a successor to C. C# claims to be a Fred> successor to C++, although I don't know whether anybody outside Fred> of MICROS~1 takes that seriously. And C++ is sufficiently complex that its relation to C is rather muddled... >> (Wasn't it Algol that was praised as being a considerable >> improvement over its successors ?) I can believe that. Then again, both Pascal and Modula-2 are admirable languages. And personally I rather liked Algol-68 (from which C++ borrowed a lot) -- even though it got me yelled at by Dijkstra. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 24 09:12:43 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 References: Message-ID: <16602.57691.339894.158843@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: Ashley> I'm still looking for an ASR-33 teletype, an LA36 DecWriter, Ashley> and a VT50 DecScope for my 1977-78 PDP-11/40 computer center Ashley> "reincarnation" project. VT50? Unless you're desperate for 12 line displays, I'd suggest a VT52 -- essentially the same vintage but 24 by 80, upper/lower case -- a far more useable device. If you want older, go for the VT05, that gives you a full 20 lines not to mention a rather cool looking device. paul From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 24 09:16:14 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) References: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net> <005901c459f0$8e926b40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00ca01c459f5$cef09770$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 9:38 AM Subject: Re: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) > > Interesting. I've been attending MIT Flea for 10 years, and > > was just lamenting with friends about how nothing resembling > > "vintage stuff" even appears there anymore - > > The MIT, as with other flea markets that I've seen has a sweet spot of > 6 year old equipment, plus or minus 3 years, that can be found. > ( 20 years ago it might have been 8 +/- 4 ) > When the thing you're looking for is older than that, it was tough > even before eBay. This lesson I learned, hard, with a desired > IBM 5100. > > The Suns and Macs mentioned this month can be augmented with > a 1990 Canon video still camera, and large quantities of Alphas > and SGI's seen last time out, all of which will be gone gone gone > in 10 years. > > John A. > What you find on eBay and fleemarkets is equipment recently taken out of service because it is obsolete or just needed to be replaced for other reasons (software requirements). Once a machine, part, or bus type has been out of service for more then a few years its very hard to find them in any decent quantity. If you have an infinite amount of storage area the easiest way to make money is to just grab everything that's obsolete and unwanted for free (or very little cash) catalog it and wait 10-15 years until everybody wants it at inflated prices. If your a packrat and live to a ripe old age your probably sitting on a goldmine. For whatever reason a few months back I started putting a 486 VLB system together like the one I used to own when they were high-tech. Do you know how hard it is to find caching VLB controllers and highend videocards these days on eBay? Gravis Ultrasounds are even hard to find on eBay and they always sell too (so its not like you cant give them away). The cards I mentioned were made in the millions not that long ago, did they all get landfilled already? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 24 09:27:43 2004 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ^_^ meay-meay! In-Reply-To: <013001c459f1$d0991420$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: > The problem is the posts are apparently coming from the -bounces account, > which must be let through. I will do some digging into this further. > I found that blocking the 200. and 211. network blocks dropped my incoming spam volume by roughly 80%. g. From wacarder at usit.net Thu Jun 24 09:25:36 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 References: <16602.57691.339894.158843@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> I've got a few VT52s. I was just looking for a VT50 because that's what we had in our 1977/78 computer center and I was trying to duplicate the environment as closely as possible. We did have a few programs (that I still have and am loading on our recreated system), that were written specifically for the VT50. One of these was TVTrek, a VT50 version of the Star Trek game. There are others, such as VT50PY. All of these should work fine on a VT52, but they will only use the first 12 lines on the screen. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:12 AM Subject: Re: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 > >>>>> "Ashley" == Ashley Carder writes: > > Ashley> I'm still looking for an ASR-33 teletype, an LA36 DecWriter, > Ashley> and a VT50 DecScope for my 1977-78 PDP-11/40 computer center > Ashley> "reincarnation" project. > > VT50? Unless you're desperate for 12 line displays, I'd suggest a > VT52 -- essentially the same vintage but 24 by 80, upper/lower case -- > a far more useable device. > > If you want older, go for the VT05, that gives you a full 20 lines not > to mention a rather cool looking device. > > paul > From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 24 09:21:31 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Origins of C (was: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was:Modern References: <003601c459b3$e07fb3a0$4d4d2c0a@atx> <06E3052E-C5E4-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <16602.58219.932787.91291@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Huw" == Huw Davies writes: Huw> .... I did all (well Huw> really most) of my BCPL programming on a DECsystem-10 where Huw> bytes had a completely different interpretation to the commonly Huw> accepted IBMism. Then again, it's possible to implement C on a PDP10 -- there's a GCC port for it, even... paul From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Jun 24 09:23:07 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Northstar question... Message-ID: Does anyone on the list know what kind of wood the case of the Northstar Horizon uses? General consensus is that it is stained to look like walnut. It seems a little nicer than plain old pine plywood... a friend of mine guesses birch. Does anyone know for sure? Doing some display material for VCF east. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 24 09:36:23 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) References: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com><40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net><005901c459f0$8e926b40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00ca01c459f5$cef09770$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <027e01c459f8$a0272d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > If your a packrat and live to a ripe old > age your probably sitting on a goldmine. Sounds a little delusional. Years ago a friend of mine heard about the change of the pure copper penny to alloy so he made about a hundred rolls of them and sealed the rolls in custom made wood boxes of about 20 pounds each. Then I showed him an article saying that the changeover had happened nearly two years earlier. massive OH S**T look on his face. John A. s/your/you're/ From pcw at mesanet.com Thu Jun 24 10:28:46 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406240517.BAA23734@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > >>>> I'd wager "long division" sets many scratching their heads... > >>> Now, what about non-restoring long division? > >> What's that? > > It's a way of saving half an ALU operation per bit on average. > > Well, if you're doing it in a real CPU... > > while (appropriate condition) > Subtract the divisor from the shifted remainder > If the result is > positive or zero > replace the remainder with it > shift a 1 bit into the quotient > negative > shift a 0 bit into the quotient > Shift the remainder left one bit (possibly shifting in a new > dividend bit if the dividend is wider than the divisor) This is a simple way to do divide on a FPGA since the carry chain is fast and conditionally loading a register is easy... There are faster divide routines that calculate more than a bit at a time (SRT dividers for example) > > Functionally equivalent. It does require either a register to hold the > difference or the ability to block/permit the store based on the sign > bit of the difference, which presumably isn't an issue if you're > designing the silicon. :-) The algorithm you gave requires one bit of > storage to remember the result of the previous subtract, which may be > easier or harder than the gated store, depending.... > > Of course, if this is for doing division in software on a machine that > doesn't have it, then that doesn't apply - but in that case, you > probably care more about clock cycles than ALU operations per se. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 24 10:40:55 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 References: <16602.57691.339894.158843@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <026601c45a01$a35154e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Any bites on the LA36 front yet? Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 24 10:44:19 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 References: <16602.57691.339894.158843@gargle.gargle.HOWL><008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> <026601c45a01$a35154e0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <027601c45a02$1d3d2f40$033310ac@kwcorp.com> oops, was meant to be private :\ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:40 AM Subject: Re: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 > Any bites on the LA36 front yet? > > Jay > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From lcourtney at mvista.com Thu Jun 24 10:58:49 2004 From: lcourtney at mvista.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Fw: Adopt Alpha 1000 - San Diego Message-ID: Seen on comp.os.vms - contact Andy directly. Lee Courtney "Andy Bustamante" wrote in message news:... > We've got marching orders and will be disposing of assorted equipment > including 2 x Alpha 1000s, > 320mb and 384mb. I don't expect these to bring in much on the used market > and am trying to get approval to pass these on to a hobbyist in the San > Diego area. You'll need to arrange pick up, once I have disposal > authorized, I won't ship these. I expect this to be a quick timetable once > I have the okay. Any interest? > > -- > > > Andy Bustamante > Remove the ASCII 95s for e-mail > > > From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 24 11:01:12 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs Message-ID: <02ac01c45a04$7917fa00$033310ac@kwcorp.com> If anyone has spare copies of Data General S/130 and S/200 documentation, I'd appreciate a chance at 'em! Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From drb at msu.edu Wed Jun 23 13:54:46 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Prime 5320 *possibly* up for grabs (Ascot, UK) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 22 Jun 2004 16:32:40 -0000.) <1087921960.10285.65.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1087921960.10285.65.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <200406231854.i5NIskqI022364@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I just heard of a Prime 5320 (1990 vintage) up for grabs in Ascot, UK. > > Comes with hard disks, tapes and floppies I've been told (no idea > about documentation) Since I'm in the US, the hardware is out of the question. *Sigh* But I am looking for software distribution tapes if any such are available and not spoken for. Dennis Boone From waisun.chia at hp.com Wed Jun 23 14:08:27 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> References: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> I know what's a Rainbow, but what's a Robin? It's a bit of a downer that the PDPs don't have cool code names like the VAXens. :-) Megan wrote: > I haven't seen much PDP-11 stuff at the MIT Flea. This past > sunday, there was a robin and a rainbow, but no other systems > that I saw. There were also some vendors who had accessories > for various DEC laptops... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | > | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | > | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | > | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > From Watzman at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 23 14:50:42 2004 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Processor Technology Question Message-ID: <200406231950.i5NJodlp006094@ms-smtp-02-eri0.ohiordc.rr.com> Question for those who know Sols, Solos, Cutter, etc. I have many old original PT cassette tapes - basic, Gamepak 1 & 2, ALS-8, etc. Will an MP3 of those tapes work? [for the sake of argument, assume a 128k bitrate]? Anyone tried this? Thanks, Barry Watzman Watzman@neo.rr.com From paul at montbay.com Wed Jun 23 18:42:04 2004 From: paul at montbay.com (Paul H. Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: (2) HP 88140LC tape cartridges Message-ID: <000f01c4597b$b34f88c0$060a0a0a@PB> Hello Wayne -- I am contacting you to see if you still have these (2) cartridges available? If so, I'm interested in acquiring them. Looking forward to hearing from you, Paul @ MBC Paul H. Brown Monterey Bay Communications 1010 Fair Avenue Santa Cruz, CA 95060 (831)429-6144 (831)429-1918 fax www.montbay.com paul@montbay.com From Mark at Misty.com Wed Jun 23 21:32:22 2004 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Dec VAX 4000/500 cluster rescue Message-ID: <20040624023222.GA24907@lucky.misty.com> Hi, I just rescued a Vax cluster, with two 4000/500 processors and a R400X enclosure with DSSI drives in it. I'm a newbie to VAXen, but ordered CDROM media for OpenVMS as a hobbiest. I also successfully fashioned a console cable. So far, if I boot from one disk, I get a $ prompt, but only with the "backup" command working, and if I boot from another I get tons of boot-up messages, but no console login prompt once the thing seems to be up. I'd like to find four DSSI terminators, so I can run one or the other processor, either with internal disks or the R400X, without having to have this set up as a cluster. I'm also looking for some other SCSI controller. The one in this system is the KZQSA, suitable for installing VMS from a CDROM, but incompatible with NetBSD, and apparently pathetically slow for SCSI hard drives under VMS. I have no idea where to find either of these items. If anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark@Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://www.misty.com/ http://mail-cleaner.com/ From ghldbrd at xpres.ccp.com Thu Jun 24 08:53:58 2004 From: ghldbrd at xpres.ccp.com (ghldbrd@xpres.ccp.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 help/info needed. In-Reply-To: <1088060666.25929.199076614@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1088060666.25929.199076614@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <2266.65.123.179.117.1088085238.squirrel@webmail.ccp.com> Well they're old hat to me, having four of them, along with other Amigas. You need a Workbench disk, probably WB 1.3. Does the picture just show a stationary hand and a blue outline of the disk? That means you have Kickstart 1.3 ROM installed. If you have an animation, of a 3-d disk sliding in, you have WB 2.04 or higher. For maximum use, KS 3.1 is reccommended. There is NO hard disk that is stock -- you'll need an A2091 SCSI card and a SCSI drive, which I happen to have several extra, along with Ethernet cards. Contact me off-list and I'll see what I can do for you. Gary Hildebrand ST. Joseph, MO > I just today acquired an apparently stock Amiga 2000. Unfortunately, I > have no boot disk for it & it has no hard drive. I cannot get it to show > the "Insert Disk" animation (does it even have this?). The screen > flashes between gray & white. > > My apologies for the stupid questions, but Amigas are new animals to me! > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Thu Jun 24 11:54:11 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ASR-33 H-Plate In-Reply-To: <000f01c4597b$b34f88c0$060a0a0a@PB> Message-ID: Aargh..... In the continuing quest to get my ASR-33 operational, it was discovered that the typing unit had shifted at some point and the h-plate connecting the typing unit back to the keyboard had popped out [I actually "found" it laying in the bottom of the case under the typing unit. Although the lever from the typing unit is spring loaded, I can not get the h-plate in. The connection levers are at different angles, preventing the h-plate from properly being inserted. Although I can move the levers a bit manually, I can not get them to rotate such that they are in the same plane. If anyone has any ideas, please contact me ASAP. I am pulling my hair out. David Ps: To all attending the RI Picnic or VC Feast. Beware the tall, thin, bald guy with a mustache. [unless of course he gets is ASR-33 running before then].... From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 24 12:05:24 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs In-Reply-To: <02ac01c45a04$7917fa00$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040624130524.00995240@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> did you check with Bruce Ray (bkr at WildHareComputers dot com)? Joe At 11:01 AM 6/24/04 -0500, you wrote: > >If anyone has spare copies of Data General S/130 and S/200 documentation, >I'd appreciate a chance at 'em! > >Jay West > >--- >[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > From auryn at GCI-Net.com Thu Jun 24 12:40:34 2004 From: auryn at GCI-Net.com (D Yuniskis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: Ricoh RS-5060E 5.25" MO Message-ID: <001901c45a12$5f63be60$de01000a@xxyy> Hi! Would anyone happen to have documentation on this drive that they could share with me? In particular, I am looking for a description of each of the DIP switch settings on the rear of the unit (Google was not helpful -- perhaps I have the only one of these ever *built*? :< ) Drive works, I would just like to see what *else* it can do (e.g., the laundry, balance my checkbook, mow the lawn...) Thanks! --don From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 24 12:51:02 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:49 2005 Subject: ASR-33 H-Plate Message-ID: <200406241751.KAA18971@clulw009.amd.com> Hi You need to reset the keyboard first by twisting it to match up to the same angle. Once that is done, you jam a screwdriver blade into the slot of the H to push against the spring and get it reinstalled. Hope this makes sense. Dwight >From: "David V. Corbin" > > Aargh..... > >In the continuing quest to get my ASR-33 operational, it was discovered that >the typing unit had shifted at some point and the h-plate connecting the >typing unit back to the keyboard had popped out [I actually "found" it >laying in the bottom of the case under the typing unit. > >Although the lever from the typing unit is spring loaded, I can not get the >h-plate in. The connection levers are at different angles, preventing the >h-plate from properly being inserted. Although I can move the levers a bit >manually, I can not get them to rotate such that they are in the same plane. > >If anyone has any ideas, please contact me ASAP. > >I am pulling my hair out. > >David > >Ps: To all attending the RI Picnic or VC Feast. Beware the tall, thin, bald >guy with a mustache. [unless of course he gets is ASR-33 running before >then].... > > From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 24 13:01:20 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <200406241801.LAA18978@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Check the termination. Make sure that only one of the drives has a terminator and that it is the correct type for that kind of drive. It is prefered that the terminator is on the last drive in the string but I've never seen problems when the drives are side by side. Dwight >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >Picked up 6 Morrow MD computers this past weekend. > >All appear to work, however I have one with floppy drive >trouble ... > >The drives in question are TEC FB-503 1/2 height 5.25" >drives. Only one of the machines has these drives. > >What is odd is that both drives in the one machine will >not read diskettes (report disk error - won't even boot). > >Only one machine has these drives - when it failed to boot, >I first tried cleaning it - no improvement - then tried >swapping for 'B' drive - still no improvement - now thinking >that diskette controller is faulty. > >Then I swapped in a Panasonic drive from my parts shelf, and >voila - boot & access disk no problem. > >Seems really odd that two identical drives would fail so >completely in the same way when all of the other 10 drives >appear to be OK. > >I thought that perhaps they were 80 track drives or some such, >however Issue #1 of the "Morrow Owners Review" has an artical >about the floppy drives used in the MD's, and it lists the >TEC/NSA 5503, which looks like these drives - Can't say for >sure if they are the same ones, as the model number stated does >differ slightly from what is on the drive plate, but if they are >the same, the artical makes no mention of anything special about >them... > >Does anyone know anything about these drives? Are they 80 track >or otherwise "odd"? Are they known to have a high failure rate >(especially with age)? Any info would be appreciated. > >Regards, > >-- >dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield >dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com >com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Thu Jun 24 13:08:25 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: ASR-33 H-Plate References: <200406241751.KAA18971@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40DB1899.4000201@gmx.net> Dwight K. Elvey schrieb: > Hi > You need to reset the keyboard first by twisting it to > match up to the same angle. Once that is done, you jam > a screwdriver blade into the slot of the H to push against > the spring and get it reinstalled. > Hope this makes sense. > Dwight > Sometimes (depending on the position of the distributor) you can get a better fit by pressing a key on the keybord. Thus giving the universal lever more space to move. - Gerold From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Jun 23 13:31:45 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Northstar question... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40D9CC91.2090205@theriver.com> My Northstar still has the original wooden top. It is stained in a walnut color, but the material is just a good quality pine plywood. Cheers Tom Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Does anyone on the list know what kind of wood the case > of the Northstar Horizon uses? General consensus is that > it is stained to look like walnut. It seems a little > nicer than plain old pine plywood... a friend of mine > guesses birch. Does anyone know for sure? > > Doing some display material for VCF east. > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From jplist at kiwigeek.com Thu Jun 24 13:22:25 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? Message-ID: A number of months ago a chap on the cctalk list mentioned this book (by Alcosser, Phillips and Wolk), and we started a correspondance whereby he took images of the pages and sent them to me. Unfortunately the chap appears to have disappeared (Presumably a busy fellow), and I only have a portion of the book. Does anyone else have this book and would be willing to image the pages (He used a digital camera, which worked fine as far as I could see) for me? The book is not easy to find, and being in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa, there aren't many obscure bookstores to find this sort of thing in. Not to mention the wealthy of resources on the ccmp list alone that might be able to help me. Thanks all; JP From medavidson at mac.com Thu Jun 24 13:54:13 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs In-Reply-To: <02ac01c45a04$7917fa00$033310ac@kwcorp.com> References: <02ac01c45a04$7917fa00$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: And if anyone has any leads on people dumping DG equipment (Nova and Eclipse), please let me know! Mark On Jun 24, 2004, at 9:01 AM, Jay West wrote: > If anyone has spare copies of Data General S/130 and S/200 > documentation, > I'd appreciate a chance at 'em! > > Jay West > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 24 14:02:33 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) References: <20040622035805.63757.qmail@web52808.mail.yahoo.com> <40D8C405.5080109@tiac.net> <005901c459f0$8e926b40$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> <00ca01c459f5$cef09770$0500fea9@game> <027e01c459f8$a0272d20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <012e01c45a1d$cebed1e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Allain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:36 AM Subject: Re: MIT Swapfest (was: DEC at MIT) > > If your a packrat and live to a ripe old > > age your probably sitting on a goldmine. > > Sounds a little delusional. > Years ago a friend of mine heard about the change of the pure > copper penny to alloy so he made about a hundred rolls of them > and sealed the rolls in custom made wood boxes of about 20 > pounds each. Then I showed him an article saying that the > changeover had happened nearly two years earlier. > massive OH S**T look on his face. > > John A. > s/your/you're/ > > Well the people who hoarded silver coins before the 1964 changeover did pretty well (extremely well if they dumped the coins during the 1979-80 period when it was $50 an ounce). From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 24 14:05:35 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> References: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> Message-ID: <200406241405.35610.pat@computer-refuge.org> Wai-Sun Chia declared on Wednesday 23 June 2004 02:08 pm: > I know what's a Rainbow, but what's a Robin? > It's a bit of a downer that the PDPs don't have cool code names like > the VAXens. :-) http://www.old-computers.com/museum/doc.asp?c=605&st=1 Aka, VT180, it's a modification to a VT100 that gives you a CP/M system inside a VT100 alongside the normal terminal capability. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 24 14:21:12 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) In-Reply-To: <20040624102144.A6E925DCA@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040624102144.A6E925DCA@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20040624122012.J94103@newshell.lmi.net> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> I thought that perhaps they were 80 track drives or some such, That's the 504 > Is TEC (Tokyo Electric Company) TEAC? NO! From dwight.elvey at amd.com Thu Jun 24 14:55:05 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: ASR-33 H-Plate Message-ID: <200406241955.MAA19044@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Gerold Pauler" > >Dwight K. Elvey schrieb: >> Hi >> You need to reset the keyboard first by twisting it to >> match up to the same angle. Once that is done, you jam >> a screwdriver blade into the slot of the H to push against >> the spring and get it reinstalled. >> Hope this makes sense. >> Dwight >> > >Sometimes (depending on the position of the distributor) >you can get a better fit by pressing a key on the keybord. >Thus giving the universal lever more space to move. > >- Gerold > > Hi He should try both and also rotate the motor to try to match with the keyboard. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 24 14:41:58 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <78B26C7C-C5E5-11D8-9D16-000A957FD620@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Jun 24, 4 11:50:37 pm Message-ID: > > Acknowledging that you don't pretend to know everything means that you > are > more than just a pretend engineer (I was going to use the word wanker I was once told that the real experts realise how little they know (and also are not too arrogant to ask colleages, etc when said colleages would have more knowledge or experience). I don't claim to be an expert in anything. I also realise how little I know, and I certainly seek advice when approriate (all the time ;-)). > but > this is a family mailing list :-). Tony please don't take this as > something > personal, it's just I'm fed up with (generally younger IT people Why should I be offended. I have _never_ claimed to know everything and never will. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 24 14:57:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: ASR-33 H-Plate In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Jun 24, 4 12:54:11 pm Message-ID: > > Although the lever from the typing unit is spring loaded, I can not get the > h-plate in. The connection levers are at different angles, preventing the > h-plate from properly being inserted. Although I can move the levers a bit > manually, I can not get them to rotate such that they are in the same plane. Latch the linkage on the keyboard (I think this is turning it clockwise viewed from the ledt). It will lock in the lower position. Then turn the motor by hand to move the lever on the typing unit. It should then all fit together properly. If it doesn't check you've got the typing unit correctly seated on the rubber mounts, and then check the keyboard and transmit clutch areas for problems. -tony From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 24 15:33:00 2004 From: george at rachors.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Father always told me: Expert EX previous-has been pert - a drip of water under pressure so ex-pert is a has been drip..... George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Acknowledging that you don't pretend to know everything means that you > > are > > more than just a pretend engineer (I was going to use the word wanker > > I was once told that the real experts realise how little they know (and > also are not too arrogant to ask colleages, etc when said colleages would > have more knowledge or experience). > > I don't claim to be an expert in anything. I also realise how little I > know, and I certainly seek advice when approriate (all the time ;-)). > > > but > > this is a family mailing list :-). Tony please don't take this as > > something > > personal, it's just I'm fed up with (generally younger IT people > > Why should I be offended. I have _never_ claimed to know everything and > never will. > > -tony > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Thu Jun 24 15:47:27 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: WTB: MIT Radiation Lab books Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040624164727.009069e0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:10 AM 6/20/04 -0700, you wrote: > >the other fun companion to this set is the yearbook that came out at the >end ..... it is like they turned the time life photo journalists loose and >lots of building plans lots of text.... really fun! Ed, Can you tel lme more about the year book including it's exact title. I'd like to try and track one down. Getting the Rad Lab books has been easier than expected. I've got over half of them already on their way here including several with original dust jackets and all of them are from the original McGraw Hill series. I'd still like to see a list of the extras that you have and what you want for them. Joe From dave04a at dunfield.com Thu Jun 24 16:14:26 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <20040624211426.E1D651EC7AF@outbox.allstream.net> At 11:01 24/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: >Hi > Check the termination. Make sure that only one >of the drives has a terminator and that it is >the correct type for that kind of drive. It >is prefered that the terminator is on the last drive >in the string but I've never seen problems when >the drives are side by side. >Dwight The Morrows use a very odd termination scheme - both drives have terminatore, and both drive have separate drive cables, going to two different (and spaced fairly far apart) connectors on the mainboard. I've tried all combinations (both in, one or the other in, both out) - always fails on the TEC drives, always works with the Panasonic. I would really like to keep the TEC's in it, as they are original equipment, and the serial #'s match the assembly manifest sticker inside the unit. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From allain at panix.com Thu Jun 24 16:37:38 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Dec VAX 4000/500 cluster rescue References: <20040624023222.GA24907@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: <00a501c45a33$78adbb20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > I'd like to find four DSSI terminators, ... Congrats on the find. 4 DSSI terminators is a hell of a lot. FWIW I might have them, but not for free. There are two types, one like a "mini"-SCSI/"Centronics" connector, the other like a "Miini"-IDC connector. The IDC one is the oldest. John A. From pkoning at equallogic.com Thu Jun 24 16:39:38 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: <16603.18970.988825.13956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Over dinner with a friend the other night the conversation landed on the subject of reading old magnetic tapes. I learned something which sounds different from what I've heard in the past, so I figured I would pass this along. This was for audio tapes, but it makes sense that it would apply to digital data tapes too. The comment was that old tapes absorb moisture into the oxide, which makes things sticky and causes the oxide to stick to the wrong spots and flake off the tape. The solution is to set the tape in a fruit dryer at modest heat (150 F or so) for a while. Presumably a desiccator, vacuum or otherwise, could serve too. Apparently this worked well for 20 year old audio tapes. paul From donm at cts.com Thu Jun 24 17:27:21 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) In-Reply-To: <20040624211426.E1D651EC7AF@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > At 11:01 24/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: > >Hi > > Check the termination. Make sure that only one > >of the drives has a terminator and that it is > >the correct type for that kind of drive. It > >is prefered that the terminator is on the last drive > >in the string but I've never seen problems when > >the drives are side by side. > >Dwight > > The Morrows use a very odd termination scheme - both > drives have terminatore, and both drive have separate > drive cables, going to two different (and spaced fairly > far apart) connectors on the mainboard. > > I've tried all combinations (both in, one or the other in, > both out) - always fails on the TEC drives, always works > with the Panasonic. It would seem that there are a couple of possibilities for your problems: - a damaged lower head or read electronics that do not permit the drive to find a directory or - less likely - incorrect strapping for drive select and the variables on the drive board. The rather brief Service Guide that I have for the Morrow MD series provides no detail at all on the drives. However, they do caution to replace the A and B drives in the position that they were removed from such as to not cross up their identity to the computer. No other manual that I have provides any information on the TEC FB-503 beyond the fact that it is a half-high 5.25" DS drive with a 360k capacity. - don > I would really like to keep the TEC's in it, as they are > original equipment, and the serial #'s match the assembly > manifest sticker inside the unit. > > Regards, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html > > From p.spina at makers.it Thu Jun 24 16:36:05 2004 From: p.spina at makers.it (Pierluigi Spina) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Unisys System 80 available in Germany near Osnabrueck ! Message-ID: Dear Pierre. We are interested to have your Unisys System80, specially base unit and HDD. Can you tell me the model type and the HDD models that you have ? Thanks Pierluigi Spina Makers - System Division Italy mailto:p.spina@makers.it From aek at spies.com Thu Jun 24 17:47:12 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Reading old tapes Message-ID: <200406242247.i5OMlCbC031410@spies.com> The comment was that old tapes absorb moisture into the oxide, which makes things sticky and causes the oxide to stick to the wrong spots and flake off the tape. The solution is to set the tape in a fruit dryer at modest heat (150 F or so) for a while. Presumably a desiccator, vacuum or otherwise, could serve too. -- This has been discussed here in the past. Some tape formulations (for me, late 70's BASF, Memorex is the worst) absorb mosture and the polymers in the binder decompose into lighter molecules which migrate to the surface. A temporary solution is to bake the tapes. 150 F sounds somewhat high though. There are dangers to doing this, though, depending on the condition of the tape. You can dry out and glue adjacent layers of tape together if you aren't careful. There are also things you can do with custom tape transports to minimize sticking when attempting to recover poorly preserved tape. From aek at spies.com Thu Jun 24 18:17:42 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs Message-ID: <200406242317.i5ONHguQ008429@spies.com> If anyone has spare copies of Data General S/130 and S/200 documentation, I'd appreciate a chance at 'em! -- A complete set of docs for the machine went to Bruce Ray, since he wanted to scan them and I have been letting him deal with archiving DG stuff. I asked him to give the paper to you when he was done. If he is ignoring you, please remind him that there are some things I'm picking up for him and rest assured he will never see them if he doesn't get this documentation to you. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Jun 24 19:05:03 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Robin boot disks was: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <200406241405.35610.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> <200406241405.35610.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200406242005.03741.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Thursday 24 June 2004 15:05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Wai-Sun Chia declared on Wednesday 23 June 2004 02:08 pm: > > I know what's a Rainbow, but what's a Robin? > > It's a bit of a downer that the PDPs don't have cool code names like > > the VAXens. :-) > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/doc.asp?c=605&st=1 > > Aka, VT180, it's a modification to a VT100 that gives you a CP/M system > inside a VT100 alongside the normal terminal capability. Does anyone have boot disk images for the VT180? - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA22wvLPrIaE/xBZARAirIAJ9MxruSw5QJkTkdIMCpTDpMnneKWwCfU2Zt fDwoMJWZ0C/y1mcjN4QSfQc= =RxNq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From awt at io.com Thu Jun 24 18:06:05 2004 From: awt at io.com (Wayne Talbot) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Processor Technology Question Message-ID: <1088118365.10916.17.camel@localhost.localdomain> A non-compressed format would be best. Considering the general quality of cassette tapes you may have some degradation and add to that any lossy format is asking for disaster. I would suggest that you read them into the computer first as data NOT audio. As I recall they are written to the tape as square waves in Intel Hex Checksum format which can help identify lost bits (Not great but better than some.) Square waves in an audio can generate distortion. (One of the early copy protection schemes?) I can remember lots of loads aborting due to checksum errors and the standard response was to back up the tape and restart. If you have problems let me know; I think I have the old source code for the monitor (BIOS) in a closet somewhere. Be careful though if you copy the BASIC. The MSA BASIC that was released for the SOL carries a copyright notice of the MICROSOFT CORPORATION and Big Bad Bill might come and get you. Seriously, this is some of the software B.G. wrote about in his open letter to hobbyists. Good Luck, Wayne > Question for those who know Sols, Solos, Cutter, etc. > I have many old original PT cassette tapes - basic, Gamepak 1 & 2, > ALS-8,etc. > Will an MP3 of those tapes work? [for the sake of argument, assume a > 128k bitrate]? -- Wayne Talbot From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 24 07:49:55 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Amiga 2000 help/info needed. In-Reply-To: <004e01c459d5$40b77ed0$0500fea9@game> References: <1088060666.25929.199076614@webmail.messagingengine.com> <004e01c459d5$40b77ed0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040624124955.GA473@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 06:23:10AM -0400, Teo Zenios wrote: > b.. green > chip ram error I realize the poster is having problems prior to this in the boot sequence, but I felt compelled to add that if you see a green screen, the most common cause, especially with an A500 is a disloged Agnus chip, especially when the machine has just been in transport. A bad DRAM in CHIP space will cause this, but a more common cause is a loose Agnus. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2004 12:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.5 F (-60.4 C) Windchill -113.1 F (-80.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10 kts Grid 060 Barometer 682.1 mb (10547. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Thu Jun 24 20:18:48 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> References: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> Message-ID: <20040625011848.GA19810@bos7.spole.gov> On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 03:08:27AM +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I know what's a Rainbow, but what's a Robin? > It's a bit of a downer that the PDPs don't have cool code names like the > VAXens. :-) The Rainbow was DEC's 8-bit competitor to the IBM PC. It runs DOS, but is not 100% compatible - more available DOS memory than the real thing, which screws with some programs that depend on a precise memory map. It also has RX50 drives. At least it can format blank media. The Robin was a CP/M machine built into a VT100 chassis (external drives). It's also called a VT180. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Jun-2004 01:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -73.4 F (-58.6 C) Windchill -109.1 F (-78.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.9 kts Grid 097 Barometer 675.9 mb (10780. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From David.Kane at aph.gov.au Thu Jun 24 21:36:17 2004 From: David.Kane at aph.gov.au (Kane, David (DPS)) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Australia Computer Museum in trouble Message-ID: <55919996450608449304DEE79482EEC26224E8@email1.parl.net> I received the following from John Geremin from the Museum late last month: Hello David, At this stage there is no suggestion of folding up. We are just trying to rationalise our storage requirements prior to setting up some displays at Kariong. The current hassles are related to delays in getting an agreement on what the people at Kariong want. Max Burnet will have the latest info on Kariong. We are planning to hold an AGM meeting next month, where all members will be invited to have their say on any future plans. There are membership forms on the web site if you don't have one already. John G. David > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David V. Corbin > Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 10:41 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Australia Computer Museum in trouble > > > Looking through the site, it appears that this may be too > late. According to the site they needed do vacate the > warehouse at the end of last year. I have seen no updates. > Hopefully any and all resources are safe. > From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 24 21:40:40 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > And if anyone has any leads on people dumping DG equipment (Nova and > Eclipse), please let me know! I have a microNOVA hard disk (6035?) control board I would dump really cheap... William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 24 21:44:34 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > There are faster divide routines that calculate more than a bit at a time (SRT > dividers for example) Probably, as I remember multiplying can be done in a number of odd ways, some of which can speed up things quite a lot. I remember from the old 100K ECL books the strange "Wallace Tree" adder chip, specifically designed to add nine bits all at once. This was part of a 64 bit multiplier. I always assumed there were equally odd way of doing division. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Thu Jun 24 21:56:38 2004 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Help ID this IBM ISA video card please Message-ID: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> It's not in any of my PC ref guides, even ones old enough to include family one types. It's two full length 16bit ISA cards bolted together. There's a connection betwen them. Two EPROMs and several big square chips. No standard FRU number that I can see anywhere. One of the cards is labeled DISPLAY CONTROLLER. One of the cards has a 25 pin female connector. The other board has a connector I've never seen before. It's a D shaped shell which has 3 holes side by side no more than .25 inch in diameter. In each hole, there's a small pin. What in the world is this? I can provide a pic if that will help. From aw288 at osfn.org Thu Jun 24 21:56:47 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <005601c4596f$80a90920$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: > The people I know who are into telephones seem to > let it get out of control and start to try to build > major exchanges in the back yard. This is a shock - but a good one. Nearly all of the telephone collectors I know are interested only in the telephones - once past the plug, they don't give a care. CO stuff is just not important to them, and neither is longline stuff. Too bad, as so much of today's networking theory is based on Bell stuff from 70 plus years ago. > I guess that there will soon be another breed of > collector with large transmitter masts and > glowing valves in the back garden :-) "Will be"? People have been collecting large transmitters (250 thru 5000 Watt) for some time. Some hams modify them (not much, basically just a small shift in frequency) to work on the 160 meter band. I think my big transmitters just recently lost the weight crown in my collection to the computers. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu Jun 24 22:03:02 2004 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs References: <200406242317.i5ONHguQ008429@spies.com> Message-ID: <009e01c45a60$f17910e0$acaafea9@newhare> Everybody - Jay and I have been working on the DG Eclipse documentation, schematics and other items "off-list" and I have not wanted to clog this list with my banalities. Jay... could you tell the folks that I really do exist, have responded and am not as horrible as it appears...? Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr@WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the DG legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: looking for DG docs > > If anyone has spare copies of Data General S/130 and S/200 documentation, > I'd appreciate a chance at 'em! > > -- > > A complete set of docs for the machine went to Bruce Ray, since he wanted > to scan them and I have been letting him deal with archiving DG stuff. > > I asked him to give the paper to you when he was done. If he is ignoring > you, please remind him that there are some things I'm picking up for him > and rest assured he will never see them if he doesn't get this documentation > to you. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 5:17 PM Subject: Re: looking for DG docs > > If anyone has spare copies of Data General S/130 and S/200 documentation, > I'd appreciate a chance at 'em! > > -- > > A complete set of docs for the machine went to Bruce Ray, since he wanted > to scan them and I have been letting him deal with archiving DG stuff. > > I asked him to give the paper to you when he was done. If he is ignoring > you, please remind him that there are some things I'm picking up for him > and rest assured he will never see them if he doesn't get this documentation > to you. > From martinm at allwest.net Thu Jun 24 22:28:58 2004 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Help ID this IBM ISA video card please References: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> Message-ID: <40DB9BFA.4090801@allwest.net> SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > It's not in any of my PC ref guides, even ones old enough to include family > one types. > > It's two full length 16bit ISA cards bolted together. There's a connection > betwen them. Two EPROMs and several big square chips. No standard FRU number > that I can see anywhere. One of the cards is labeled DISPLAY CONTROLLER. > One of the cards has a 25 pin female connector. The other board has a > connector I've never seen before. It's a D shaped shell which has 3 holes side by > side no more than .25 inch in diameter. In each hole, there's a small pin. What > in the world is this? > > I can provide a pic if that will help. > Are you sure that is is not an MCA bus? This sounds like a video card for an IBM RS6000 MCA machine (like a 320). Martin From vax3900 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 22:31:14 2004 From: vax3900 at yahoo.com (SHAUN RIPLEY) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Help ID this IBM ISA video card please In-Reply-To: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> Message-ID: <20040625033114.30021.qmail@web51801.mail.yahoo.com> --- SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > It's not in any of my PC ref guides, even ones old > enough to include family > one types. > > It's two full length 16bit ISA cards bolted > together. There's a connection > betwen them. Two EPROMs and several big square > chips. No standard FRU number > that I can see anywhere. One of the cards is labeled > DISPLAY CONTROLLER. > One of the cards has a 25 pin female connector. The > other board has a > connector I've never seen before. It's a D shaped > shell which has 3 holes side by > side no more than .25 inch in diameter. In each > hole, there's a small pin. What > in the world is this? If it is a display card this connector should provide R, G, B signals with usually sync on Green. Look at those old sun workstation display connectors for clue. vax, 3900 > > I can provide a pic if that will help. > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Thu Jun 24 22:27:44 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Help ID this IBM ISA video card please In-Reply-To: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> References: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> Message-ID: <200406250359.XAA29374@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] a connector I've never seen before. It's a D shaped shell > which has 3 holes side by side no more than .25 inch in diameter. In > each hole, there's a small pin. What in the world is this? This sounds a lot like a 3W3, such as is used by (for example) the DEC 3000/300X Alpha machines. I have such a machine. I scanned that end of the cable I use with it; the result, converted to jpeg format, is at ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/3W3-scan.jpg for your perusal. In passing, does anyone know a source for such cables? While removing it from the machine, I discovered - the hard way - that the connector stuck to the machine more strongly than it stuck to the (molded-on!) shell on the end of the wire. I've pushed it back physically, but I have little confidence it will actually resume working, so I am probably going to be searching for a suitable cable. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 24 23:01:28 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Help ID this IBM ISA video card please In-Reply-To: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> References: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> Message-ID: <200406242301.28737.pat@computer-refuge.org> SUPRDAVE@aol.com declared on Thursday 24 June 2004 09:56 pm: > It's not in any of my PC ref guides, even ones old enough to include > family one types. > > It's two full length 16bit ISA cards bolted together. There's a > connection betwen them. Two EPROMs and several big square chips. No > standard FRU number that I can see anywhere. One of the cards is > labeled DISPLAY CONTROLLER. One of the cards has a 25 pin female > connector. The other board has a connector I've never seen before. > It's a D shaped shell which has 3 holes side by side no more than .25 > inch in diameter. In each hole, there's a small pin. What in the world > is this? > > I can provide a pic if that will help. That's a 3W3 connector - three "co-ax" connectors in a DA15 shell (I think), one each for red, blue and green/sync. If they're really ISA cards, I would guess they might be PC/RT cards, as I think that used ISA slots (but other people probably know better than I). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 24 23:12:29 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs References: <200406242317.i5ONHguQ008429@spies.com> <009e01c45a60$f17910e0$acaafea9@newhare> Message-ID: <006e01c45a6a$a1c4f7d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > Jay... could you tell the folks that I really do exist, have responded and > am not as horrible as it appears...? Yup, Bruce and I have been talking offlist several times about the docs. Definitely not as horrible as it might appear :) Jay From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jun 24 23:50:36 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Reading old tapes References: <16603.18970.988825.13956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001001c45a6f$f4e1e090$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Paul Koning" > The comment was that old tapes absorb moisture into the oxide, which > makes things sticky and causes the oxide to stick to the wrong spots > and flake off the tape. The solution is to set the tape in a fruit > dryer at modest heat (150 F or so) for a while. "Baking" tapes is a well-known "remedy" in the industry. Afterwards, the tapes are not to be used anymore. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.709 / Virus Database: 465 - Release Date: 22-06-2004 From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Jun 25 01:10:16 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Reading old tapes tapes living in arizona ok References: <200406242247.i5OMlCbC031410@spies.com> Message-ID: <001701c45a7b$15b1fd40$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> just put them in a storage shed in Arizona... that should fix them! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Kossow" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 3:47 PM Subject: Re: Reading old tapes > > > > The comment was that old tapes absorb moisture into the oxide, which > makes things sticky and causes the oxide to stick to the wrong spots > and flake off the tape. The solution is to set the tape in a fruit > dryer at modest heat (150 F or so) for a while. > > Presumably a desiccator, vacuum or otherwise, could serve too. > > -- > > This has been discussed here in the past. > Some tape formulations (for me, late 70's BASF, Memorex is the worst) > absorb mosture and the polymers in the binder decompose into lighter > molecules which migrate to the surface. > > A temporary solution is to bake the tapes. 150 F sounds somewhat high > though. > > There are dangers to doing this, though, depending on the condition > of the tape. You can dry out and glue adjacent layers of tape together > if you aren't careful. > > There are also things you can do with custom tape transports to minimize > sticking when attempting to recover poorly preserved tape. > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Jun 25 01:11:58 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? References: Message-ID: <002101c45a7b$52ca3f80$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> is that the book with the paper clips on the front of it in the picture? they were using them as a keyboard? Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 11:22 AM Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? > > A number of months ago a chap on the cctalk list mentioned this book (by > Alcosser, Phillips and Wolk), and we started a correspondance whereby he > took images of the pages and sent them to me. > > Unfortunately the chap appears to have disappeared (Presumably a busy > fellow), and I only have a portion of the book. > > Does anyone else have this book and would be willing to image the pages > (He used a digital camera, which worked fine as far as I could see) for > me? > The book is not easy to find, and being in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa, > there aren't many obscure bookstores to find this sort of thing in. Not to > mention the wealthy of resources on the ccmp list alone that might be able > to help me. > > Thanks all; > JP > > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Jun 25 06:56:48 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Australia Computer Museum in trouble In-Reply-To: <55919996450608449304DEE79482EEC26224E8@email1.parl.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the update. Good to hear that all is (fairly) well over there ['tis been to long since I was last to the "Land Down Under"]. If the web site could get just a quick update, it might prevent others from making the same mistake I did.... David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kane, >>> David (DPS) >>> Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2004 10:36 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: Australia Computer Museum in trouble >>> >>> I received the following from John Geremin from the Museum late last >>> month: >>> >>> Hello David, >>> >>> At this stage there is no suggestion of folding up. >>> >>> We are just trying to rationalise our storage requirements prior >>> >>> to setting up some displays at Kariong. >>> >>> The current hassles are related to delays in getting an >>> agreement >>> on what the people at Kariong want. Max Burnet will >>> have the latest >>> info on Kariong. >>> >>> We are planning to hold an AGM meeting next month, >>> where all members >>> will be invited to have their say on any future plans. There are >>> >>> membership forms on the web site if you don't have one already. >>> >>> John G. >>> >>> David >>> >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David >>> V. Corbin >>> > Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 10:41 PM >>> > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >>> > Subject: RE: Australia Computer Museum in trouble >>> > >>> > >>> > Looking through the site, it appears that this may be too late. >>> > According to the site they needed do vacate the warehouse >>> at the end >>> > of last year. I have seen no updates. >>> > Hopefully any and all resources are safe. >>> > >>> From dave04a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 25 07:04:53 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <20040625120453.6214DB47A1@outbox.allstream.net> Hi Don, >It would seem that there are a couple of possibilities for your >problems: - a damaged lower head or read electronics that do not >permit the drive to find a directory or - less likely - incorrect >strapping for drive select and the variables on the drive board. I doubt it strapping, as these are the original drives that were installed by Morrow. I thought it was odd that both of these drives (and only these two) failed with exactly the same symptom - My guess is that something in the read electronics is prone to an age related fault - I was hoping that someone might respond with something like "Oh yeah - thats a known problem with those drives - check capactor x". >The rather brief Service Guide that I have for the Morrow MD >series provides no detail at all on the drives. However, they do >caution to replace the A and B drives in the position that they >were removed from such as to not cross up their identity to the >computer. No other manual that I have provides any information on >the TEC FB-503 beyond the fact that it is a half-high 5.25" DS >drive with a 360k capacity. It is an odd configuration with a separate cable and terminator for each drive ... Any chance you could be talked into copying or scanning that service manual? Do you have other info on these systems (Technical or otherwise)? Were you involved these machines? Looking to collect as much info as possible. Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 25 08:22:40 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: Message-ID: <16604.10016.808000.444887@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> There are faster divide routines that calculate more than a bit at >> a time (SRT dividers for example) William> Probably, as I remember multiplying can be done in a number William> of odd ways, some of which can speed up things quite a William> lot. I remember from the old 100K ECL books the strange William> "Wallace Tree" adder chip, specifically designed to add nine William> bits all at once. This was part of a 64 bit multiplier. William> I always assumed there were equally odd way of doing William> division. I don't think so. Multiplication can be optimized lots of ways. Division has always been the annoying exception that refuses to go much faster no matter how hard you beat on it. The standard algorithm is essentially classic elementary school long division, in base 2 -- which means you get one bit of result per cycle. Some implementations, going back at least as far as the CDC 6600 in 1964, add a pile of extra logic to compute multiple bits of result per cycle -- 2 bits in the case of the 6600, which doubles the speed at a cost of MORE than 2x in logic. Then there are special cases: the Cray and Alpha integer units, which don't offer divide at all. Instead, you're supposed to multiply by the reciprocal of the divisor. This works well, because you can actually do that faster than the straightforward one bit at a time division even if you have to calculate the reciprocal at runtime. In the Alpha case at least, the system library divide routine would find the reciprocal by table lookup for small divisors, and the compiler would find it for any divisor if it's a compile time constant. GCC (in recent versions) does the same for any processor. paul From jplist at kiwigeek.com Fri Jun 25 09:58:12 2004 From: jplist at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? In-Reply-To: <002101c45a7b$52ca3f80$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: > is that the book with the paper clips on the front of it in the picture? > they were using them as a keyboard? Half! Paperclips I'll believe, the computer is supposed to be constructed out of paperclips for switches. Whether it was a keyboard or not, I'm unsure, I don't know what the dust jacket ever looked like. JP From CPUMECH at aol.com Fri Jun 25 10:39:58 2004 From: CPUMECH at aol.com (CPUMECH@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: ASR-33 H-Plate Message-ID: <4f.3ffbfd24.2e0da14e@aol.com> You can reset the keybd. by pushing down on the lever on the front right corner of the keybd. and it should latch in the down position. Then if the H lever still won't line up you can trip the distributor clutch and the rotate the motor which will then turn the distributor clutch, which will rotate the arm for the H lever to line up on the same plane. If you have any questions call Dataterm Inc.-they are very knowledgeable with 33 TTY's and have many parts for Teletypes too.- 781-938-1010 From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jun 25 10:47:11 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; Message-ID: <0406251547.AA03393@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Paul Koning wrote: > Then there are special cases: the Cray and Alpha integer units, which > don't offer divide at all. Instead, you're supposed to multiply by > the reciprocal of the divisor. Ahmm, but the reciprocal of an integer is not an integer, so you are stepping out of integer-land into floating point territory. Do you really want to use floating point to implement integer division (dividing an integer by an integer to get quotient and remainder)? And how do you guarantee that the final integer result will be exact? (I guess you convert the dividend to a float, get the reciprocal of the divisor, which will be a float, do float multiplication, and integerise the result, right? Are there enough bits of precision in a float to guarantee an exact result for integer division done this way? I doubt that, since AFAIK Alpha has usual 32-bit and 64-bit floats, which have other things besides mantissa in those bits, but has 64-bit integers.) And how do you get the remainder? Floating division (whether direct or via multiplication by the reciprocal) doesn't produce a remainder at all. MS From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 25 11:01:34 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <0406251547.AA03393@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <16604.19550.244506.918118@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Michael" == Michael Sokolov writes: Michael> Paul Koning wrote: >> Then there are special cases: the Cray and Alpha integer units, >> which don't offer divide at all. Instead, you're supposed to >> multiply by the reciprocal of the divisor. Michael> Ahmm, but the reciprocal of an integer is not an integer, so Michael> you are stepping out of integer-land into floating point Michael> territory. Do you really want to use floating point to Michael> implement integer division (dividing an integer by an Michael> integer to get quotient and remainder)? And how do you Michael> guarantee that the final integer result will be exact? (I Michael> guess you convert the dividend to a float, get the Michael> reciprocal of the divisor, which will be a float, do float Michael> multiplication, and integerise the result, right? Are there Michael> enough bits of precision in a float to guarantee an exact Michael> result for integer division done this way? I doubt that, Michael> since AFAIK Alpha has usual 32-bit and 64-bit floats, which Michael> have other things besides mantissa in those bits, but has Michael> 64-bit integers.) And how do you get the remainder? Michael> Floating division (whether direct or via multiplication by Michael> the reciprocal) doesn't produce a remainder at all. That's not how it works. This stuff relies on the availability of an "extended multiply" -- one that produces a result twice the size of the operands. More specifically, you need the upper half. For example, say you have 32 bit ints. You calculate the reciprocal of the divisor times 2^32, converted to an integer. You multiply and pick up the upper 32 bits of the 64 bit result. You can demonstrate that this produces the exact result for divisors within a certain range (I do not know the details). So this provides a way to do exact division that's fast for most divisors, and slow for those where the reciprocal method isn't exact (if any). As for the remainder -- that's trivial: x % y == x - (x /y) * y which can be implemented with reciprocal multiply and come out faster than the simple division approach. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jun 25 11:13:51 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406251547.AA03393@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406251547.AA03393@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200406251113.51989.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 25 June 2004 10:47, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Ahmm, but the reciprocal of an integer is not an integer, so you are > stepping out of integer-land into floating point territory. Do you > really want to use floating point to implement integer division > (dividing an integer by an integer to get quotient and remainder)? > And how do you guarantee that the final integer result will be exact? > (I guess you convert the dividend to a float, get the reciprocal of > the divisor, which will be a float, do float multiplication, and > integerise the result, right? Are there enough bits of precision in > a float to guarantee an exact result for integer division done this > way? I doubt that, since AFAIK Alpha has usual 32-bit and 64-bit > floats, which have other things besides mantissa in those bits, but > has 64-bit integers.) And how do you get the remainder? Floating > division (whether direct or via multiplication by the reciprocal) > doesn't produce a remainder at all. Well, if it's really an integer, you could use a fixed-point number for the division (assume that the highest bit is the 2^(-1)bit or 2^0 if you can get an extra bit). For this to work, you need to have access to double the number of input bits to the multiplier for its output. I remember seeing this before...either in my Sr. level architecture class or the description of how my SBC-16/40 does division, neither of which sounds right. I need to go back and figure out where I learned this from. Remainder is simply quotient - divisor*result, or drop the higher half of the result and re-do the multiplication (and the resulting higher half is the remainder). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From vcf at siconic.com Fri Jun 25 11:16:57 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:50 2005 Subject: TI calculator repair anyone? Message-ID: See below... Reply-to: JWLane43@aol.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:11:02 EDT From: JWLane43@aol.com To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: (no subject) Hello! I would be very grateful if you could help me. Do you know of any company or individual that repairs old calculators. I have two Texas TI-58 Programmable calculators that do not work and I am very keen to make contact with anyone that has a working knowledge of the internal workings of these machines. Thanks very much for any help you can give me. Jonathan -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From tomhudson at execpc.com Fri Jun 25 13:00:06 2004 From: tomhudson at execpc.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DC6826.9010605@execpc.com> OK, try this. Go to the following URL: http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/338bfb5358bc8a03.html It should prompt you to enter a zip code, or other location (i.e. "UK"). Click on "GO" and it'll return a list of various libraries that have the book. For me (in Wisconsin) it shows the Milwaukee School of Engineering, Ripon College, University of Wisconsin in River Falls, and many more in iowa, Illinois, Michigan and Minnesota. Perhaps it'll turn up a copy near you. Good luck! And if you can't find one, let me know off-list and I'll make a quick trip to Milwaukee for you. -Tom JP Hindin wrote: >A number of months ago a chap on the cctalk list mentioned this book (by >Alcosser, Phillips and Wolk), and we started a correspondance whereby he >took images of the pages and sent them to me. > >Unfortunately the chap appears to have disappeared (Presumably a busy >fellow), and I only have a portion of the book. > >Does anyone else have this book and would be willing to image the pages >(He used a digital camera, which worked fine as far as I could see) for >me? >The book is not easy to find, and being in the middle-of-nowhere Iowa, >there aren't many obscure bookstores to find this sort of thing in. Not to >mention the wealthy of resources on the ccmp list alone that might be able >to help me. > >Thanks all; >JP > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 25 15:05:23 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <0406251547.AA03393@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406251547.AA03393@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <20040625130054.T34163@newshell.lmi.net> > > Then there are special cases: the Cray and Alpha integer units, which > > don't offer divide at all. Instead, you're supposed to multiply by > > the reciprocal of the divisor. On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Michael Sokolov wrote: > Ahmm, but the reciprocal of an integer is not an integer, so you are > stepping out of integer-land into floating point territory. Do you "Most important thing to know about doing floating point arithmetic: DON'T." > really want to use floating point to implement integer division > (dividing an integer by an integer to get quotient and remainder)? > And how do you guarantee that the final integer result will be exact? > (I guess you convert the dividend to a float, get the reciprocal of > the divisor, which will be a float, do float multiplication, and integerise > the result, right? Are there enough bits of precision in a float to > guarantee an exact result for integer division done this way? I > doubt that, since AFAIK Alpha has usual 32-bit and 64-bit floats, > which have other things besides mantissa in those bits, but has > 64-bit integers.) And how do you get the remainder? Floating division > (whether direct or via multiplication by the reciprocal) doesn't produce > a remainder at all. REMAINDER = NUMERATOR - ((int)QUOTIENT * DENOMINATOR) ; which adds an otherwise unnecessary integer multiply and integer subtraction. From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 25 15:55:50 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) In-Reply-To: <20040625120453.6214DB47A1@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > I doubt it strapping, as these are the original drives that were > installed by Morrow. > > I thought it was odd that both of these drives (and only these two) > failed with exactly the same symptom - My guess is that something > in the read electronics is prone to an age related fault - I was > hoping that someone might respond with something like "Oh yeah - > thats a known problem with those drives - check capactor x". The TEC are a rather obscure drive. I cannot recall when I last saw one. > It is an odd configuration with a separate cable and terminator > for each drive ... Are you aware that you can add an additional two drives on to the B drive cable? Takes a new cable obviously with additional connectors and the added drives must be set for DS 3 & 4. Also, the terminator should move to the last drive. > Any chance you could be talked into copying or scanning that service > manual? I am not setup for scanning, but could probably get a copy made. It is about 100 pages (double side) and 5 11x17 schematics. Covers the MD-1 and 3 and also the 3HD (briefly). Not sure what it would cost to get copied. > Do you have other info on these systems (Technical or otherwise)? > Were you involved these machines? Looking to collect as much info > as possible. I supported a local attorney who kept his office running on a group of MDs. I still have a couple here yet - a 3 and a 3H I believe. - don From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Fri Jun 25 16:27:40 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <005d01c45973$5449cb90$5b01a8c0@athlon> Message-ID: <011801c45afc$3fdfb360$bb72fea9@geoff> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio Carlini" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:42 PM Subject: RE: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; > > > I've had many an argument with my father over this. He > > insists on using > > the binomial expansion. I prefer the Newton iteration, which > > converges > > very quickly > > > > [ To find sqrt(A) > > > > Set X(0) = A/2 (or some other suitable initial guess) > > Repeat > > X(N+1) = ( (A/X(N)) + X(N) ) / 2 > > Unti X(N) and X(N+1) are sufficiently close > > Return X(N+1) > > > > ] > > There's also a method I learnt long ago > that is laid out in the same way as > a long division. I've forgotten it > because it seemed moderately pointless! > I've forgotten it so thoroughly thatI've > even forgotten whether it had a name or not. > Antonio I couldn't remember either , but for all those of us who like revisiting old ground ....... http://www.nist.gov/dads/HTML/squareRoot.html Gives us the answer. - Yes , I remember now, - it seemed impressive at the time - still does , It fills me full of admiration for Newton . Remember that this is only the end product of whatever was going on in his mind - when you see his elegant proofs for what was the beginning of calculus - differentiation etc. , you feel extremely humble. Now , about those pyramids....................... Geoff. From KParker at workcover.com Thu Jun 24 18:26:00 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623621021@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Thanks guys - the junk I'm getting is a whole heap of trash in the top left corner of the screen (no error codes) so I do really think its cactus but I'll try your suggestions. +++++++++++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 e: webmaster@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com +++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of jpero@sympatico.ca Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 8:02 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: RE: 3com etherlink III MCA > That's disappointing as I've got one too. Given that its MCA I thought it would be at a premium and therefore quite valuable. > > The one I've got is in an IBM PS2 Model 60 but when I boot it I get some gobbledy-gook on screen which is not very promising - if anyone has any clues I'd be grateful. I thought of disabling the HD a> > Ahhhh such is life! Parker, Of course, if you have gotten thick paperback book of Muller's, this has whole lot of IBM PS/2 error codes. Or google. The info will help you to decode errors and act on that info. PS/2 stuff (not those PS2 (that's playstation 2, they do die easily. :-P) doesn't simply die easily. I still have couple PS/2 (70-Axx, P75) that still works. For example 1701 generally means hard drive problem, so on, it has several sub errors under that 1700 specific to hard drive system. Gee, been years since I last cracked that book for reference. :-O SWAG: There is about 200 or so error codes total for everything including several types of beeps. Whew. Cheers, Wizard ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From drb at msu.edu Thu Jun 24 19:20:07 2004 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 24 Jun 2004 17:39:38 EDT.) <16603.18970.988825.13956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16603.18970.988825.13956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200406250020.i5P0K7bQ007959@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The comment was that old tapes absorb moisture into the oxide, which > makes things sticky and causes the oxide to stick to the wrong spots > and flake off the tape. The solution is to set the tape in a fruit > dryer at modest heat (150 F or so) for a while. Libraries, archives, and other preservation organizations have been dealing with this for some time. It's called "sticky shed syndrome", and occurs when the binder layer absorbs water molecules. In some cases, the tape will cause the tape to stick to the heads, pinch rollers, etc, and even squeal loudly as it passes through the machine. The problem doesn't just occur in tapes from the 80s. Recipes vary quite a bit. Our library purchased a fancy small convection oven for doing the work on a large collection of old audio materials, but others use their kitchen appliances. Close temperature control is important. One should be careful not to let things get too hot, keeping in mind the hysteresis of the typical home oven. Sticky shed often returns after a month or two; if you have tapes with this problem it's best to copy the contents to other media promptly after baking. De From waisun.chia at hp.com Thu Jun 24 21:48:49 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E and PDP-8/M diff? In-Reply-To: <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <40DB9291.6070603@hp.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 23, 2004 at 01:43:52PM -0500, Lawrence LeMay wrote: > >>If you're planning to gut an 8/M, I would be interested in >>obtaining an empty chassis. > Sorry guys. No such luck.. I just managed to acquire a empty 8/M chassis recently. A feat to say the least.. PDP-8 parts seem to have all but dried up, and I'd expect it to get worse.. :={ So now I'm on the lookout for 8E boards/module.. I was asking if I can use 8E boards in a 8M chassis with the H740 PSU. All evidence so that it is possible, but the only thing is that the H740 lacks a 8VDC to drive the bulbs in the KC8E panel, right? If that is the case, then it'd be a simple mod; I'll just whip up a 7808 via the 12VDC and feed it to the bulbs, should be workable.. > > I'd be interested in an empty -8/f chassis as well... I already have > two KK8E board sets and several 4K and 8K core planes. An -8/m or > -8/f chassis would be the perfect place to put the second set. > Ethan, would you be willing to part with 1 of your KK8E and perhaps 2 of your MM8EJ? For a reasonable price of course, don't expect them to be free.. :-) -- /wai-sun From waisun.chia at hp.com Thu Jun 24 21:53:27 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to have a little problem. Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing content (core is supposed to be non-volatile). I've been debugging custom bootloaders for the past week and it has since gone past annoying. It's like 3 locations out of 50 that are always reverting back to 000000 after a reboot. Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores that are not functioning properly? Or is it the cores itself? -- /wai-sun From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jun 24 21:53:29 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: FREE VMS Programmer's Manuals Message-ID: <04062419532900@jfcl.com> I've got some VMS manuals Vol 1 Introduction to Programming Vol 2A Utilites and Debugger Vol 2B Utilites (CDU, Librarian, Linker, Message) Vol 3 System Library Routines Vol 4A System Services Vol 4B System Services and just for fun Obsolete Features. I think this is pretty much all of the "P" section of the infamous VMS gray wall. All are brand new, still shrink wrapped, never opened and were current as of VMS version 5.2 (i.e. a long, long time ago!). All you have to do is pick them up in Milpitas CA - sorry, but they're just not worth the trouble of shipping. Bob Armstrong From squidster at techie.com Fri Jun 25 02:43:07 2004 From: squidster at techie.com (wai-sun chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question Message-ID: <20040625074307.21AF179005B@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> *WARNING: NEWBIE ALERT* Ok. I must be an idiot. I for the life of me cannot figure out why is it when I say: 1000: .ASCIZ /HELLO WORLD!/ After assembling and linking it turns out that: 1000: 042510 ;H=110, E=105 1002: 046114 ;L=114, L=114 1004: 020117 ;O=117, =040 1006: 047527 ;W=127, O=117 1010: 046122 ;R=122, L=114 1012: 020504 ;D=104, !=041 1014: 000000 Why is the octal ASCII code and the content of the addresses different? /wai-sun -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From donm at cts.com Fri Jun 25 14:57:41 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Robin boot disks was: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <200406242005.03741.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Mike Kenzie wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Thursday 24 June 2004 15:05, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Wai-Sun Chia declared on Wednesday 23 June 2004 02:08 pm: > > > I know what's a Rainbow, but what's a Robin? > > > It's a bit of a downer that the PDPs don't have cool code names like > > > the VAXens. :-) > > > > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/doc.asp?c=605&st=1 > > > > Aka, VT180, it's a modification to a VT100 that gives you a CP/M system > > inside a VT100 alongside the normal terminal capability. > > Does anyone have boot disk images for the VT180? The attached ZIP file contains three images of CP/M and utilities for the Robin. They are SSDD when reproduced. Hope this helps. - don > > - -- > Collector of vintage computers > http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) > > iD8DBQFA22wvLPrIaE/xBZARAirIAJ9MxruSw5QJkTkdIMCpTDpMnneKWwCfU2Zt > fDwoMJWZ0C/y1mcjN4QSfQc= > =RxNq > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jun 25 16:33:33 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: 'Lorenzo' by Technology Modeling Associates ? Message-ID: <1088199213.13986.18.camel@weka.localdomain> I just stumbled across a DAT tape amongst my pile of spares labelled as "Lorenzo version 1.1.2" made by a company called Technology Modeling Associates. Anyone come across this software before and can tell me what it does? The copyright date's 1993-1995, so it's almost on topic :-) Googling doesn't turn up much. I'm just curious - I don't have a DEC Alpha system to run it anyway, plus it says that it needs authorisation codes to install anyway, which I don't have. I have no idea where I came by the tape from! cheers Jules From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 25 17:02:45 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question References: <20040625074307.21AF179005B@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <16604.41221.797825.122254@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "wai-sun" == wai-sun chia writes: wai-sun> *WARNING: NEWBIE ALERT* Ok. I must be an idiot. I for the wai-sun> life of me cannot figure out why is it when I say: wai-sun> 1000: .ASCIZ /HELLO WORLD!/ wai-sun> After assembling and linking it turns out that: wai-sun> 1000: 042510 ;H=110, E=105 ... wai-sun> Why is the octal ASCII code and the content of the addresses wai-sun> different? They aren't. Remember that bytes are 8 bits and octal gives you 3 bits per digit. So (unlike hex) the boundary between the two bytes is "in the middle" of the fourth digit. The word is (0105 << 8) + 0110 which 042510 as you showed, and similarly for the other words. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Fri Jun 25 17:07:06 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Core volatility References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> Message-ID: <16604.41482.633136.960580@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: Wai-Sun> I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to Wai-Sun> have a little problem. Wai-Sun> Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing Wai-Sun> content (core is supposed to be non-volatile). I've been Wai-Sun> debugging custom bootloaders for the past week and it has Wai-Sun> since gone past annoying. It's like 3 locations out of 50 Wai-Sun> that are always reverting back to 000000 after a reboot. Wai-Sun> Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores Wai-Sun> that are not functioning properly? Or is it the cores Wai-Sun> itself? Or a bug in your program is clearing those three words? It seems mighty peculiar for a hardware problem to consistently turn three words to be all zero. (Then again, what was the original contents? Losing one bit is possible -- losing many bits is unlikely.) Given how core works, if you can write it, then read it several times, and it produces the right answers, it is REALLY unlikely that the bits would just go away by themselves after that. I can imagine some "bit rot" mechanisms, though it's a stretch -- but those wouldn't work in nice whole-word patterns. paul From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Fri Jun 25 17:16:46 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> References: <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040625181646.008a3bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Core isn't non-volatile! The contents of core memory is destroyed everytime you read it. The computer has to restore the contents after every read. I don't know if this is handled in the read/write circuitry, the controller or by the CPU but I expect that the read/write circuitry does it. It sounds like whatever is supposed to be restoring the contents of those locations is bad. If you can store both 1s and 0 in each location and then read them back then it appears that the cores and the write circuits and read circuits are all working. But somewhere in there is something that feeds the read data back to the write circuits so that it can be restored, I suspect that that's where your problem is. Let me know what you find when you find out the source of the problem. Joe At 10:53 AM 6/25/04 +0800, you wrote: > >I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to have a little >problem. > >Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing content (core is > supposed to be non-volatile). I've been debugging custom bootloaders >for the past week and it has since gone past annoying. It's like 3 >locations out of 50 that are always reverting back to 000000 after a reboot. > >Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores that are not >functioning properly? Or is it the cores itself? > > >-- >/wai-sun > > From medavidson at mac.com Fri Jun 25 17:27:16 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: William-- I sent you a message off-list about this... if you didn't get it (and you see this message), let me know! Mark On Jun 24, 2004, at 7:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> And if anyone has any leads on people dumping DG equipment (Nova and >> Eclipse), please let me know! > > I have a microNOVA hard disk (6035?) control board I would dump really > cheap... > > William Donzelli > aw288@osfn.org > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 25 17:14:22 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Jun 25, 4 10:53:27 am Message-ID: > > I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to have a little > problem. > > Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing content (core is > supposed to be non-volatile). I've been debugging custom bootloaders Core is non-volatile, but readout is destructive (you read a core by writing a 0 to it and seeing if there was a change in flux through the core). One PDP11s (and on just about every other mini I've worked on) the core memory hardware restores the old contents after a read (Actually, on a PDP11 it's more compiicated than that. There's a particular type of read cycle -- a DATIP cycle -- where the processor ias actually going to do a read-modify-write to that location in core, and the next bus cycle is going to be a write to the same location. The DATIP cycle tells the core contol electronics not to waste time doing the restore since it's going to be overwritten anyway) > for the past week and it has since gone past annoying. It's like 3 > locations out of 50 that are always reverting back to 000000 after a reboot. Between reboots can you read that location as many times as you like? In other words is the restoration circuit working correctly? (I would guess it was, because it's common to all locations in the memory, but maybe marginal drive currents can cause problems). > Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores that are not > functioning properly? Or is it the cores itself? I can't think of any reason why particular locations should be getting cleared by a reboot. Addressing is done by an XY matrix kind of scheme, so a problem with the address drivers would normally affect an entire row or column (And anyway, why would it only show on a reboot). Are you sure no software is overwriting these locations? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 25 17:26:09 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <20040625074307.21AF179005B@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> from "wai-sun chia" at Jun 25, 4 03:43:07 pm Message-ID: > Ok. I must be an idiot. > I for the life of me cannot figure out why is it when I say: > > 1000: .ASCIZ /HELLO WORLD!/ > > After assembling and linking it turns out that: > > 1000: 042510 ;H=110, E=105 Remember the PDP11 puts the low byte first. So : H = 110 (octal) = 01 001 000 binary E = 105 (octal) = 01 000 101 binary Put those together with the H in the low byte to make a word 0 100 010 101 001 000 binary or 042510 octal. That's what your assembler is giving. Remember a byte is not a complete number of octal digits (8 is not divisible by 3) so when you pack bytes into words the octal numbers change. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 25 17:29:07 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: TI calculator repair anyone? In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Jun 25, 4 09:16:57 am Message-ID: > > I would be very grateful if you could help me. Do you know of any company or > individual that repairs old calculators. I have two Texas TI-58 Programmable For reference I do old HP calculators (desktops and handelds from the 9100 to the 71B..) I have a TI58 amd TI59 on the to-be-hacked pile, but I am not going to be getting round to them anytime soon, alas. -tony From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 25 17:37:32 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <20040625074307.21AF179005B@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20040625074307.21AF179005B@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <200406252249.SAA06418@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > 1000: .ASCIZ /HELLO WORLD!/ > After assembling and linking it turns out that: > 1000: 042510 ;H=110, E=105 > 1002: 046114 ;L=114, L=114 > 1004: 020117 ;O=117, =040 > 1006: 047527 ;W=127, O=117 > 1010: 046122 ;R=122, L=114 > 1012: 020504 ;D=104, !=041 > 1014: 000000 > Why is the octal ASCII code and the content of the addresses > different? Because the "content of the addresses" is printing a whole word in octal, which places the boundary between the two bytes somewhere other than on a (textual) boundary between two octal digits. The difference is purely textual. Convert to binary and it becoems obvious: 1000: 042510 ;H=110, E=105 0 4 2 5 1 0 0 100 010 101 001 000 low ** *** ***--> 01001000 = 01 001 000 = octal 110 high * *** *** *------------> 01000101 = 01 000 101 = octal 105 You could convert it to hex and it wouldn't look so strange: 200: 4548 ;H=48, E=45 but the PDPs conventionally use octal. It makes a lot more sense for the older PDPs which had word sizes that were multiples of three bits (PDP-8, PDP-10, probably others); even for the PDP-11, it makes more sense for looking at machine code, given how the instruction word breaks down. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Fri Jun 25 17:52:51 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> Message-ID: <40DCACC3.5050504@gmx.net> With "after reboot" do you mean a power off, power on cycle? Core memory is critical while power off/on. If power fails after the read cycle and before the refreshing write cycle then the contents is lost. So maybe you have problems with the power supply or the power fail logic. Just my 2c Gerold Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to have a little > problem. > > Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing content (core is > supposed to be non-volatile). I've been debugging custom bootloaders > for the past week and it has since gone past annoying. It's like 3 > locations out of 50 that are always reverting back to 000000 after a > reboot. > > Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores that are not > functioning properly? Or is it the cores itself? > From gerold.pauler at gmx.net Fri Jun 25 18:08:48 2004 From: gerold.pauler at gmx.net (Gerold Pauler) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: TI calculator repair anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DCB080.4030001@gmx.net> I have some bad old copies of the reverse engineered schematics for the ti58 and some bad hand written schematics for the ti59 magnet card reader. I also have a handwritten german translation of a TI report "External Communications for the SR-52/56 (TI-58/59) Calculators, Texas Instruments Incoporated, Calculator Products Division, Dallas Texas, Sept. 27, 1976) If you don't mind to ruin your eyes and are keen enough to retranslate it to english I will be able to scan them. - Gerold Tony Duell wrote: >>I would be very grateful if you could help me. Do you know of any company or >>individual that repairs old calculators. I have two Texas TI-58 Programmable > > > For reference I do old HP calculators (desktops and handelds from the > 9100 to the 71B..) > > I have a TI58 amd TI59 on the to-be-hacked pile, but I am not going to be > getting round to them anytime soon, alas. > > -tony From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Jun 25 18:47:40 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <16604.41221.797825.122254@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: While this question ask been well answered, it does bring to mind a good old trivia question.... "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation (especially in the late '60s timeframe)?" >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 6:03 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: Really stupid PDP assembler question >>> >>> >>>>> "wai-sun" == wai-sun chia writes: >>> >>> wai-sun> *WARNING: NEWBIE ALERT* Ok. I must be an idiot. >>> I for the wai-sun> life of me cannot figure out why is it >>> when I say: >>> >>> wai-sun> 1000: .ASCIZ /HELLO WORLD!/ >>> >>> wai-sun> After assembling and linking it turns out that: >>> >>> wai-sun> 1000: 042510 ;H=110, E=105 ... >>> >>> wai-sun> Why is the octal ASCII code and the content of >>> the addresses wai-sun> different? >>> >>> They aren't. >>> >>> Remember that bytes are 8 bits and octal gives you 3 bits per digit. >>> So (unlike hex) the boundary between the two bytes is "in >>> the middle" >>> of the fourth digit. >>> >>> The word is (0105 << 8) + 0110 which 042510 as you showed, >>> and similarly for the other words. >>> >>> paul >>> From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Fri Jun 25 18:48:05 2004 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: DEC PC350-D2 Message-ID: Are these interesting at all? Found one buried over at the archaeological dig today. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Jun 25 19:17:08 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406260024.UAA06941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > While this question ask been well answered, it does bring to mind a > good old trivia question.... > "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation > (especially in the late '60s timeframe)?" Well, I wasn't around then (at least not with respect to computers). But I'd hazard a few guesses. - Word lengths that were multiples of 3 were commoner than word lengths that were multiples of 4 (of course, some, eg 36 bits, were both). - Existing devices (eg, nixies) could handle 0-7 better than 0-F. - Using letters as "digits" ran into human mindset trouble; using decimal representation for hex digits runs into bigger trouble, using multiple characters per functional digit. - Humans have trouble with a 16-digit system. (I know I do; I always have to stop and pay attention to avoid getting B and D confused.) How close did I come? :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 25 18:20:54 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: SRAM cards for Commodore CD-TV? Message-ID: <20040625232054.GA11481@bos7.spole.gov> I was cleaning up today and ran across an old 64K battery-backed SRAM card for a Sharp OS-781. The box mentions the OZ-7000, but I was wondering if this is one of the cards that will work with a Commodore CD-TV (there's a PCMCIA-ish slot in the front, and ISTR 64K was one of the sizes mentioned in some of the documentation for what would work in there). Specifically, my recollection is that the CD-TV takes a "Type I" card, and this OZ-781 _is_ 1/2 as thick as a Type II (with one row of pins, not two). Do I have a match? (I'll still have to find a CD-TV to replace the one that was stolen in a burglary years ago - so long ago, in fact, that the insurance company paid out 100% for the loss with no questions asked, based on the pricetag on the corner of the box - $795). It was a fun little box that fit well with the other components by the TV. I did replace it with a CD-32 later, but the two just don't compare, stylistically, even though the CD-TV is, essentially, a repackaged A500, and the CD-32 is a crippled A1200 (but I do have an SX-1 expansion for it). Speaking of expansions, has anyone ever seen the MPEG cartridge for the CD-32? I don't "need" one, since I can watch VCDs on my Apex DVD player, but I've always wanted to find one at a reasonable price to see how well it plays VCDs. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Jun-2004 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.8 F (-60.5 C) Windchill -107.2 F (-77.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 059 Barometer 670 mb (11005. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From shirsch at adelphia.net Fri Jun 25 20:01:02 2004 From: shirsch at adelphia.net (Steven N. Hirsch) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Help ID this IBM ISA video card please In-Reply-To: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> References: <149.2ca46cc3.2e0cee66@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jun 2004 SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > It's not in any of my PC ref guides, even ones old enough to include family > one types. > > It's two full length 16bit ISA cards bolted together. There's a connection > betwen them. Two EPROMs and several big square chips. No standard FRU number > that I can see anywhere. One of the cards is labeled DISPLAY CONTROLLER. > One of the cards has a 25 pin female connector. The other board has a > connector I've never seen before. It's a D shaped shell which has 3 holes side by > side no more than .25 inch in diameter. In each hole, there's a small pin. What > in the world is this? That's an IBM RT/PC 'Megapel' video adapter. It used the same wierd connector as the early microchannel RS/6000 machines. For the time, it was an extremely sophisticated piece of hardware. Steve From tomj at wps.com Fri Jun 25 20:27:50 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Reading old tapes In-Reply-To: <001001c45a6f$f4e1e090$2201a8c0@finans> References: <16603.18970.988825.13956@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c45a6f$f4e1e090$2201a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <1088213266.4567.70.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Thu, 2004-06-24 at 21:50, Nico de Jong wrote: > "Baking" tapes is a well-known "remedy" in the industry. Afterwards, the > tapes are not to be used anymore. I'd like to amplify what Nico points out -- old media like this should be treated as a one-time shot, prepare it, extract the data, then (virtually if not actually) abandon in place. Baking etc won't repair the tape, just give you a temporary window in which to recover data from a rapidly-failing medium. Act fast, get the data off and hang the tape on the wall as art. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 25 20:38:42 2004 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Amdek system/88 Message-ID: <200406252138.42296.kenziem@sympatico.ca> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Going thought my old floppies and I came a disk labelled SETUP and TEST Diskette for System/88 Boot from this diskette Copyright Amdek Corporation. 1997 ver 1.31 There is also some MS-DOS 3.2 diskettes with them. Does anyone know anything about a system/88. Google indicates that there has been a few machines named system/88, but nothing for Amdek. - -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFA3NOiLPrIaE/xBZARAvVPAKCrdDmv84j8KyOML0MTRADGR6seBgCgwzMj pOmgf1bfyIrFmNCT4ti25Xo= =eRaS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jpero at sympatico.ca Fri Jun 25 17:24:39 2004 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623621021@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <20040626022343.VCNJ1984.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > From: "Parker, Kevin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 08:56:00 +0930 > Cc: > Subject: RE: 3com etherlink III MCA > Reply-to: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Thanks guys - the junk I'm getting is a whole heap of trash in the top left corner of the screen > (no error codes) so I do really think its cactus but I'll try your > suggestions. Parker, What kind of grabage? Try a new battery first, the 6V battery is readily available from decent photo shops and any places that stocks batteries (Radio shack etc). When there is errors or items changed (hardware or battery went flat) since last boot up, always had two BEEPs and displayed error codes. MCA boxens requires ADF files and a disk created from file downloaded from IBM for specific model: example, setup disk for model 60, 70 series, so on. ADF files for other cards is simply copied to that setup disk. This is pure fun of setting up without jumpers and nothing like windows or bios to fuss about. The rest of beep codes is used when IBM cannot display via video output. Cheers, Wizard From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Fri Jun 25 21:47:05 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E and PDP-8/M diff? In-Reply-To: <40DB9291.6070603@hp.com> References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <40DB9291.6070603@hp.com> Message-ID: <20040626024705.GA22584@bos7.spole.gov> On Fri, Jun 25, 2004 at 10:48:49AM +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Ethan, would you be willing to part with 1 of your KK8E and perhaps 2 of > your MM8EJ? For a reasonable price of course, don't expect them to be > free.. :-) I know I don't have a working KK8E, and I don't know about the memory. I wouldn't be interested in selling anything until I get at least my -8/e up and running. That won't be for a while - the next plane doesn't even arrive for 4 months (and I'm not leaving for weeks after that). Call it a year at least before I could even come close to giving you an answer. I also have some PDP-8/a hardware to collect in Denver and KC (at friends' houses). That'll be occupying a bunch of time right when I get back. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jun-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.8 F (-62.1 C) Windchill -114.4 F (-81.40 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 068 Barometer 669.7 mb (11018 ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Fri Jun 25 21:53:50 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <200406260024.UAA06941@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: derMouse: >>> - Existing devices (eg, nixies) could handle 0-7 better than 0-F. You win the grand prize! The actual devices that prompted it however were printers! A printing calculator could be adapted to produce hardcopy. These were in (relatively) common use and available. "Most" systems used binary for lamps/leds so nixie tubes for non decimal values were not predominant. As you know the use of text in computing [for entry/display] came later. David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of der Mouse >>> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:17 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: Really stupid PDP assembler question >>> >>> > While this question ask been well answered, it does bring >>> to mind a >>> > good old trivia question.... >>> >>> > "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation >>> > (especially in the late '60s timeframe)?" >>> >>> Well, I wasn't around then (at least not with respect to computers). >>> But I'd hazard a few guesses. >>> >>> - Word lengths that were multiples of 3 were commoner than >>> word lengths >>> that were multiples of 4 (of course, some, eg 36 bits, >>> were both). >>> >>> - Existing devices (eg, nixies) could handle 0-7 better than 0-F. >>> >>> - Using letters as "digits" ran into human mindset trouble; using >>> decimal representation for hex digits runs into bigger trouble, >>> using multiple characters per functional digit. >>> >>> - Humans have trouble with a 16-digit system. (I know I >>> do; I always >>> have to stop and pay attention to avoid getting B and D >>> confused.) >>> >>> How close did I come? :-) >>> >>> /~\ The ASCII der Mouse >>> \ / Ribbon Campaign >>> X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From esharpe at uswest.net Fri Jun 25 21:54:13 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? References: Message-ID: <003501c45b28$dcc47ae0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> I have a paper back book in the computers that we started on display....... will try to get more details tomorrow ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? > > > is that the book with the paper clips on the front of it in the picture? > > they were using them as a keyboard? > > Half! > > Paperclips I'll believe, the computer is supposed to be constructed out of > paperclips for switches. Whether it was a keyboard or not, I'm unsure, I > don't know what the dust jacket ever looked like. > > JP > > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Fri Jun 25 22:03:40 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623620FD1@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623620FD1@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <1088219020.7989.4.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Well, if everyone is throwing out their MCA stuff.. :-) Anyone got a MCA 10/100 ethernet card, that'll work in a RS/6000 they wanna toss my way (in a non-terribly expensive fashion)? I've got a RS/6000 here I'd like to plug my tape library into, and use as a back up server, but considering the size of the data, its current 10mbs network just ain't going to cut it. Thanks, I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. David On Tue, 2004-06-22 at 19:36, Parker, Kevin wrote: > That's disappointing as I've got one too. Given that its MCA I thought it would be at a premium and therefore quite valuable. > > The one I've got is in an IBM PS2 Model 60 but when I boot it I get some gobbledy-gook on screen which is not very promising - if anyone has any clues I'd be grateful. I thought of disabling the HD and trying to boot from a floppy to see if it was just the HD that's cactus. > > Ahhhh such is life! > > > +++++++++++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > e: webmaster@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > +++++++++++++++++++ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of chris > Sent: Tuesday, 22 June 2004 5:45 AM > To: Classic Computer > Subject: 3com etherlink III MCA > > > I've got a 3com EtherLink III MCA card available if anyone wants it. It > failed to sell on ebay, so just cover postage costs (plus paypal fees if > you pay me that way) and its yours. > > Anyone want it? If you want to view it, see below: > > D > ME:B:EOAS:US:3> > > > the ad lists as $3.85 for shipping via Priority Mail. That is my prefered > method to ship things like this, because I get free boxes. If you want > some other method or are out of the USA and can't use that method, I'm > open to changing it. > > If I don't get a taker, its heading to the trash... so hopefully someone > will want it. (I no longer have any MCA bus hardware, so it is useless to > me) > > -chris > > > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ From sastevens at earthlink.net Sat Jun 26 02:09:44 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: WARNING: RANTING COMPUTER NUT... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040626020944.78e28c97.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:58:34 -0400 "Jason McBrien" wrote: > > > > >I've never committed the crime of having anything to do with the SGI > >boxes that sport an Intel processor and run NT, though. > > > >(Aieeee!, huh? ) > > > > > I think those are going to be collectable machines. I've been looking > for a cheap one for a while. It's a really interesting architecture. > Custom memory bus (== EXPENSIVE memory modules) Custom system bus and > integrated video controller. These things were way ahead of anything > else at the time, unfortunatly for SGI the PC hardware market catches > up quickly and commodity PC hardware had the kind of bus speeds their > workstations had within a year (RAMBUS, BOO! HISS!) As vertically > marketed as they were they don't run anything other than Windows NT. I > think there's a version of Linux floating around for them, and odds > are NetBSD will at least boot on them (Horray for serial console! :) > > >(** I'm probably one of the .0001% of people who has seen a Windows > >NT desktop on a PowerPC system) > > I've got Visual Studio 5 for PowerPC if you're interested... > Actually, I am somewhat interested in something like that. I've sold the IBM RS/6000 box that I ran NT/PPC on, but could easily pick up another such machine sometime. The problem I had with NT/PPC was that there is nothing, completely and absolutely nothing, to run on it. I wobbled around on the net (as an experiment) with the crippled IE2 that they bundled with NT4 before shrugging and putting AIX back on the machine. With an actual compiler on the box, it could actually be useful for running code on. Being the weird person I am I'd probably get another PPC box and bring it up again. From stanb at dial.pipex.com Sat Jun 26 03:06:42 2004 From: stanb at dial.pipex.com (Stan Barr) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: TI calculator repair anyone? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 25 Jun 2004 23:29:07 BST." Message-ID: <200406260806.JAA32656@citadel.metropolis.local> Hi, ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) said: > > > > I would be very grateful if you could help me. Do you know of any company or > > individual that repairs old calculators. I have two Texas TI-58 Programmable > > For reference I do old HP calculators (desktops and handelds from the > 9100 to the 71B..) > > I have a TI58 amd TI59 on the to-be-hacked pile, but I am not going to be > getting round to them anytime soon, alas. There is, or was, some TI info at: http://xgistor.ath.cx Don't know if it's still active. I've got a -58 which saw a lot of use way back when... -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb@dial.pipex.com The future was never like this! From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Sat Jun 26 04:09:10 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold. In-Reply-To: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> (John Allain's message of "Wed, 9 Jun 2004 22:53:08 -0400") References: <005c01c44e96$101b44e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <0qy8mak7nt.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> "John Allain" writes: > But anybody have any creative ideas on what to do > with two or three Mac Classics that I keep finding. > I can't throw them out, on conscience. I can't believe no-one responded with the following link before now. Go to http://www.c-trl.com/68k/ right away and see the magic of a wall full of macs and the Localtalk Lounge. And a spare MacIvory would be quite the find; there can't have been that many made to start with... From akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to Sat Jun 26 04:12:38 2004 From: akb+lists.cctech at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Macs: Billions and Billions sold In-Reply-To: (Seth Lewin's message of "Thu, 10 Jun 2004 20:09:56 -0400") References: Message-ID: <0qu0wyk7i1.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Seth Lewin writes: > At one MacWorld I attended one vendor had taken dozens of Pluses, SE's, > SE30's and Classics and built what can only be called a throne out of them, I sometimes consider doing that with 6 or 8 decstations and a few vr262's, and putting it in a science fiction convention art show, but I have no idea what I would do with it afterwards... From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Jun 26 04:16:31 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: S-100 stuff found Message-ID: Hi gang, Just returned from a customer in Norway. While cleaning up some issues there (which included doing some *literal* cleaning up; the place's machine room had never seen a cleaning... eeeew !) I bumped into a box with "ohyeah, thats old stuff, just throw it out" kinda stuff. Obviously, I opened it up, and found a couple PDP-8 boards (DP-8 programmable timer) with manuals, and about 14 what looked to be S-100 boards. More checking and some calling last night indeed confirmed these to be S-100 boards: Cromemco 64KZ 64KB RAM board Cromemco PRI printer interface Cromemco 16FDC floppy disk controller Cromemco WDI hard disk interface unknown 32KB STATIC RAM board (qty 2) XCOMM 001785 ? serial interface board? (qty 2) XCOMM 001790 SA1000/ST506 interface (qty 2) unknown TMM416-based RAM board (64K it seems) NNC CPU-Z80-IEEE NNC CPU board (qty 4) If anyone wants there, make me an offer I cannot refuse. Yes, I can bring them to the U.S. next week, if so desired, and ship em from there. Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Jun 26 04:20:26 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found Message-ID: Hi All, While going through someone's collecting heritage, I found some paper tapes for PDP-9, PDP-12 and PDP-15 systems. From what is printed and/or scribbled on them, it looks like bootstraps and diagnostics tapes. Some are DEC-original. Does anyone want these, and/or who can read and archive their contents? I know nothing about these systems, soo... Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From hansp at citem.org Sat Jun 26 06:09:33 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DD596D.8030800@citem.org> Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >While going through someone's collecting heritage, I found some >paper tapes for PDP-9, PDP-12 and PDP-15 systems. From what is >printed and/or scribbled on them, it looks like bootstraps and >diagnostics tapes. Some are DEC-original. > >Does anyone want these, and/or who can read and archive their >contents? I know nothing about these systems, soo... > > > Yes please for the PDP-9 and PDP-15 stuff. I suspect others will want the PDP-12. Electronic images are fine if you have the facilities to read the tapes, otherwise I'd be happy to pay cost to sending to me in France. -- HansP From medavidson at mac.com Fri Jun 25 17:28:23 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: FREE VMS Programmer's Manuals In-Reply-To: <04062419532900@jfcl.com> References: <04062419532900@jfcl.com> Message-ID: Bob-- I'm in San Jose and will happily pick them up, if they are still available. Mark Davidson On Jun 24, 2004, at 7:53 PM, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > I've got some VMS manuals > > Vol 1 Introduction to Programming > Vol 2A Utilites and Debugger > Vol 2B Utilites (CDU, Librarian, Linker, Message) > Vol 3 System Library Routines > Vol 4A System Services > Vol 4B System Services > > and just for fun > > Obsolete Features. > > I think this is pretty much all of the "P" section of the infamous > VMS gray wall. All are brand new, still shrink wrapped, never opened > and were current as of VMS version 5.2 (i.e. a long, long time ago!). > All you have to do is pick them up in Milpitas CA - sorry, but they're > just not worth the trouble of shipping. > > Bob Armstrong > From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Jun 25 19:31:08 2004 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: Robin boot disks was: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <200406242005.03741.kenziem@sympatico.ca> References: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> <200406241405.35610.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200406242005.03741.kenziem@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040625202639.02789948@mail.itm-inst.com> At 08:05 PM 6/24/2004, Mike Kenzie wrote: >Does anyone have boot disk images for the VT180? I have an original DEC disk - VT180 CP/M 2.2. No idea if it's still usable, but it's unlikely that I overwrote/reformatted it. The floppy isn't readable on a peecee floppy drive. If you're interested, I can drop it into the mail to you. -Rick From mbg at TheWorld.com Fri Jun 25 22:21:42 2004 From: mbg at TheWorld.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? Message-ID: <200406260321.XAA8157092@shell.TheWorld.com> I have a copy... it was meant to read a program from "drum" memory, a coffee can covered by a piece of paper with the appropriate holes cut it in so paper-clip "brushes" made contact. The problem is that you then had to (if I remember correctly) make the changes in the states of the 'flip-flops' yourself and move to the next instruction... I'll have to find it and check it out... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From clint.d.young at boeing.com Fri Jun 25 23:44:12 2004 From: clint.d.young at boeing.com (Young, Clint D) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: hp 7974a Message-ID: <0E945259655C9D4382396758353C1C3E020202CB@XCH-SW-40.sw.nos.boeing.com> Dear JHT, Recently, I got a new hp 7974a drive. Do you have any interest in them? Do you know what they are worth? Thanks, Cllint From google at imap1.mirror.to Sat Jun 26 04:29:32 2004 From: google at imap1.mirror.to (Andrew K. Bressen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:51 2005 Subject: DEC & HP available - a trip to an infrequented collecting spot in stlouis In-Reply-To: <001001c45010$01fad0d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> (Jay West's message of "Fri, 11 Jun 2004 18:58:34 -0500") References: <001001c45010$01fad0d0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <0qpt7mk6pv.fsf@lanconius.mirror.to> Hi-- I saw yr post on cctech... >I spent a lot of time talking to the owner, and sucessfully built a rapport. >I'm welcome to come back any time, and they'll let me just walk through. >They also agreed to call me when stuff comes in that may be of interest so I >can have a looksee before it's torn apart. The "big iron" stuff listed above I'm interested in punchcard and papertape hw, and also printing terminals, especially ones in typewriter form factors, so if you see any of that go by there, please do give a holler. I think I'm set for LA120's, though. Also, I, and I suspect and many other folks, would pay at least a buck or two apiece for 8" and larger disk platters; if the material is going to be scrapped, you might suggest this. --best --akb From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jun 26 09:09:00 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406260709.00014.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Fred, You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan them to Al Kossow so he can archive them. Lyle On Saturday 26 June 2004 02:20, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi All, > > While going through someone's collecting heritage, I found some > paper tapes for PDP-9, PDP-12 and PDP-15 systems. From what is > printed and/or scribbled on them, it looks like bootstraps and > diagnostics tapes. Some are DEC-original. > > Does anyone want these, and/or who can read and archive their > contents? I know nothing about these systems, soo... > > Cheers, > > Fred -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 26 09:52:47 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: <200406260709.00014.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200406260709.00014.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: >You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan them to Al Kossow so >he can archive them. This is what I'd recommend. Zane -- -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From owad at applefritter.com Sat Jun 26 10:27:16 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) Message-ID: <20040626152716.7657@mail.earthlink.net> I have a lot of manuals I want to scan and am trying to decide upon the best format. I'd like some opinions on the following scans of a 128-page Franklin AceWriter manual. On the low end is a pdf of bitmap images. It's hideous, but only 3.5 MB. The high end is a 40 MB pdf of jpeg images. This one's easy on the eyes, but is an awfully large download and I'm wondering if it might not print as nicely as the bitmap. In the middle is a pdf of compressed jpegs at 15 MB. This looks good to my eyes, I just wonder about using compressed jpegs for archiving... (3.5 MB) (15 MB) (40 MB) (Disregard the incorrect ordering of the pages.) Thoughts? Which of the three would you most want to download? Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From waltje at pdp11.nl Sat Jun 26 10:35:30 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040626152716.7657@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Tom Owad wrote: > I have a lot of manuals I want to scan and am trying to decide upon the > best format. I'd like some opinions on the following scans of a 128-page > Franklin AceWriter manual. > > On the low end is a pdf of bitmap images. It's hideous, but only 3.5 MB. > > The high end is a 40 MB pdf of jpeg images. This one's easy on the eyes, > but is an awfully large download and I'm wondering if it might not print > as nicely as the bitmap. Just test it. For scanning, I usually dont *care* about the size, since we're doing preservation, we get to do it *once*. So, I set things to "max quality" and scan. Once that is done, usually turn them into PDF with Acrobat, in "prepress quality". In your example, this would yield a PDF of about 30M. I consider that very acceptable for a scanned manual of good quality. If someone wants a smaller one, one can always reduce it later. The opposite (sending out low-qual ones and then make them look better) doesn't work so good. > Thoughts? Which of the three would you most want to download? The best one :) Disk space (or even bandwidth) issues are a problem of days gone, I'd say. Downloaded PDF's easily fit on CD-R's, which, at $0.10 a piece, come cheap... Cheers, Fred -- Fred N. van Kempen, DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation) Collector/Archivist Visit the VAXlab Project at http://VAXlab.pdp11.nl/ Visit the Archives at http://www.pdp11.nl/ Email: waltje@pdp11.nl BUSSUM, THE NETHERLANDS / Mountain View, CA, USA From aek at spies.com Sat Jun 26 11:13:12 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) Message-ID: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> I scan at 400dpi 1bpp and save the pages using group4 compressed TIFFs which is the maximum res the IS520 scans at. Acrobat does a really poor job of saving JPEGs (it makes them a LOT bigger than the originals) and I would NOT use a lossy format on any page with only text or line art. There is a noticable loss of edge contrast on text pages compressed as JPEGs. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 26 11:18:07 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <20040626152716.7657@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <002601c45b99$2ad1c150$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Owad" To: "Classic Computer" Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 11:27 AM Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) > I have a lot of manuals I want to scan and am trying to decide upon the > best format. I'd like some opinions on the following scans of a 128-page > Franklin AceWriter manual. > > On the low end is a pdf of bitmap images. It's hideous, but only 3.5 MB. > > The high end is a 40 MB pdf of jpeg images. This one's easy on the eyes, > but is an awfully large download and I'm wondering if it might not print > as nicely as the bitmap. > > In the middle is a pdf of compressed jpegs at 15 MB. This looks good to > my eyes, I just wonder about using compressed jpegs for archiving... > > (3.5 MB) > (15 MB) > (40 MB) > (Disregard the incorrect ordering of the pages.) > > Thoughts? Which of the three would you most want to download? > > Tom > > Applefritter > www.applefritter.com > > I always go for best quality in anything I plan on keeping. Storage space is cheap and is getting cheaper, once you have a low res scan your stuck with it. From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 26 12:02:49 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <16604.41482.633136.960580@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <40DB93A7.70108@hp.com> <16604.41482.633136.960580@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1088269368.4567.1073.camel@fiche.wps.com> It's possible, but I'd be surprised if it were anything but software. Many DG Nova programmers umm discovered a feature of locations (I think) 40 through 47, what we locally called the auto-excrement. The factory I believe called them auto-increment and auto-decrement. An indirect memory reference in this range Xcremented the value there after reference. It was intended as an index-register-like feature, and was a terrible place to put a return address stack. tomj Cores can die (intrinsic flaw, damage, overheat, etc) but it's awwwwwwfully suspicious that all the bad bits are in the same word... cores are manufactured in bit planes and wired into words, they have no other relationship. Core drivers could fail, but again all in the same words? Usually a whole column will drop out and you'll see the Nth bit bad in some largeish address range. On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 15:07, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Wai-Sun" == Wai-Sun Chia writes: > > Wai-Sun> I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to > Wai-Sun> have a little problem. > > Wai-Sun> Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing > Wai-Sun> content (core is supposed to be non-volatile). I've been > Wai-Sun> debugging custom bootloaders for the past week and it has > Wai-Sun> since gone past annoying. It's like 3 locations out of 50 > Wai-Sun> that are always reverting back to 000000 after a reboot. > > Wai-Sun> Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores > Wai-Sun> that are not functioning properly? Or is it the cores > Wai-Sun> itself? > > Or a bug in your program is clearing those three words? > > It seems mighty peculiar for a hardware problem to consistently turn > three words to be all zero. (Then again, what was the original > contents? Losing one bit is possible -- losing many bits is > unlikely.) > > Given how core works, if you can write it, then read it several times, > and it produces the right answers, it is REALLY unlikely that the bits > would just go away by themselves after that. > > I can imagine some "bit rot" mechanisms, though it's a stretch -- but > those wouldn't work in nice whole-word patterns. > > paul From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 26 12:08:52 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040625181646.008a3bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <40D958DF.9090504@hp.com> <200406231843.NAA19075@caesar.cs.umn.edu> <20040624021522.GC22728@bos7.spole.gov> <3.0.6.32.20040625181646.008a3bb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1088269729.4567.1085.camel@fiche.wps.com> Run diagnostics overnight to check core. Diags of this vintage actually do something. On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 15:16, Joe R. wrote: > Core isn't non-volatile! (Umm no, that's just the destructive-readout method, industrially proven to be the cheapest way to handle core memory. There are other non-destructive schemes but they cost too much to make.) From tomj at wps.com Sat Jun 26 12:24:21 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 16:47, David V. Corbin wrote: > "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation (especially in > the late '60s timeframe)?" I'm a bit skeptical of the printer-hardware answer. Printing calculators don't care about notation, only humans do. Historically, eg. before computers, characters were logically defined in six positions -- 5 for the "character" and one for the case (FIGS, LTRS, etc). Many early electronic representations of symbols used 6 bits to define the symbol set. (Why five? how many fingers you got?) In fact, word widths of computing machines were occasionally described in how many characters wide, a character being 6 bits. ALl this character notation crap was inherited from telecomm gear. Telecom gear (ttys, etc) were adapted to computers for i/o because they were cheap and plentiful and (sort of) easy to use, not the other 'way 'round. The other historic data paradigm was hollerith's cards, which IBM bought. Both were adapted to electronic computing use, neither was designed for it. http://wps.com/projects/codes/index.html From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Sat Jun 26 12:38:13 2004 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: local finds Message-ID: <000101c45ba4$5b9ee280$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Found these in Chicago: Vax 4000-300 Dec R400X TU-81 Plus Free for pickup - will not ship. They are on hold for a week before "demanufacturing". Let me know if anyone is interested; I don't have any more info than the name tags; devices appear to be in good cosmetic condition. Jack From hansp at citem.org Sat Jun 26 12:39:42 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <40DDB4DE.7050304@citem.org> Tom Jennings wrote: >Historically, eg. before computers, characters were logically defined in >six positions -- 5 for the "character" and one for the case (FIGS, LTRS, >etc). Many early electronic representations of symbols used 6 bits to >define the symbol set. > >(Why five? how many fingers you got?) > > Don't know if that was the real reason, more important probably was the fact the 5 bits could code up to 32 symbols, sufficient for the alphabet. >The other historic data paradigm was hollerith's cards, which IBM >bought. > IBM did not "buy" the hollerith card, IBM was the evolution of a company, the Tabulating Machine Company, created by Herman Hollerith in 1896. In 1911 this merged with two other companies to form CTR, the Computing Tabulating and Recording Company. Thomas Watson took the reins of CTR as general manager in 1914 and became its president in 1915. He renamed the company International Business Machines, IBM, in 1924. An the rest is history ;-) -- HansP From geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk Sat Jun 26 12:49:39 2004 From: geoffreythomas at onetel.net.uk (Geoffrey Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" References: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> <20040623185144.B70782@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000d01c45ba7$0c3ff280$bb72fea9@geoff> > They hired an incompetent consultant to decide what computers to get. > He had an AA degree with a C average. > They refused to let any of the instructors, all of whom > have BAs, and most MAs, have any input. Who was he friendly with - with whom was he friendly -if you like ? It's usually the case - all these rats network like hell. Geoff. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 26 14:15:07 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <000d01c45ba7$0c3ff280$bb72fea9@geoff> References: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> <20040623185144.B70782@newshell.lmi.net> <000d01c45ba7$0c3ff280$bb72fea9@geoff> Message-ID: <20040626121153.E55662@newshell.lmi.net> > > They hired an incompetent consultant to decide what computers to get. > > He had an AA degree with a C average. > > They refused to let any of the instructors, all of whom > > have BAs, and most MAs, have any input. On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > Who was he friendly with - with whom was he friendly -if you like ? > It's usually the case - all these rats network like hell. Do you mean like the time that they got us a "special deal" on PCs at twice the going rate? Equating college administrators to rats is an insult to rodents. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 26 14:18:48 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Philips P2000C disks Message-ID: <1088277527.15229.29.camel@weka.localdomain> I think a couple of people expressed an interest in boot disks for the Philips P2000C a few weeks ago. I only just got into the museum stores today to see what we have. Reading off disk labels (I know *nothing* about these machines!)... Specific (original) 2000C floppies I found: Copower disk CP/M Copower disk MSDOS 2.11 Wordstar 3.3 Calcstar 1.45 CP/M 2.2 ABASIC P 2509-L / TTY P 2526-L Grafox Dataplot+ P2000C Maintenance Program MN11 Also the following copies (I have no idea how a P2012C differs from a P2000C!): P2012C CP/M P2012C MSDOS Utilities P2012 Cardbox P2012-16 CP/M boot disk for MSDOS (P2000C mode) P2012-16 CP/M boot disk for MSDOS (PC mode) P2012-16 MSDOS (P2000C mode) System disk P2012-16 MSDOS (PC mode) System disk P2012-16 P2012C CP/M MS-boot, MS-util, R/disk copy of master disk P2012-16 P2012C MSDOS utilities copy of master disk P2012-16 Copower disk CP/M copy of master disk P2012-16 Copower disk MSDOS 2.11 copy of master disk P2012-16 CP/M 2.2, Wordstar 3.3, Calcstar 1.45 copy of master disk P2012-16 ABASIC P 2509-L TTY P 2526-L copy of master disk P2012-16 Grafox Dataplot+ copy of master disk P2012-16 Maintenance program MN11 copy of master disk P2012-16 Test pattern disk for use with MN11 maintenance software A lot of those copied P2012 disks sound suspiciously like direct copies of the P2000C originals. What's the difference between the machines? What's the easiest way of copying these? I can put a 360K 5.25" drive in my desktop PC and run off some disk images, assuming they aren't some oddball format which the PC controller can't cope with. What's the best software to use? (I can boot MSDOS, Linux or Win 2k on the desktop) No idea if data is intact on the disks of course, but they're all boxed and look to be dust free. I also found the following P2000C documentation, although scanning is probably out of the question (happy to look stuff up though!): P2000C System reference and service manual set CP/M reference manual MSDOS user guide Copower board reference manual Calcstar manual Wordstar manuals 1 and 2 Disk BASIC reference manual P2000C operator manual Dataplot+ user and reference manual Advanced BASIC interpreter operator manual TTY user guide CP/M user guide P2000C software catalogue cheers, Jules From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 26 15:10:01 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> References: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> Message-ID: <200406262014.QAA21101@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation >> (especially in the late '60s timeframe)?" > I'm a bit skeptical of the printer-hardware answer. Printing > calculators don't care about notation, only humans do. Right. But: - A power-of-two base is important because it maps trivially to and from binary. - A base less than ten is important so you can use existing printing calculator mechanisms (capable of only 0-9) for output. That leaves bases 2, 4, and 8. Which one would _you_ pick? > Historically, eg. before computers, characters were logically defined > in six positions -- Another reason to group bits in threes: three divides six, so character boundaries fall on digit boundaries (ie, the question that started this thread off would not arise under such a system). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From donm at cts.com Sat Jun 26 15:30:39 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Philips P2000C disks In-Reply-To: <1088277527.15229.29.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Jules Richardson wrote: > I think a couple of people expressed an interest in boot disks for the > Philips P2000C a few weeks ago. I only just got into the museum stores > today to see what we have. > > Reading off disk labels (I know *nothing* about these machines!)... > > Specific (original) 2000C floppies I found: > > * Copower disk CP/M > * Copower disk MSDOS 2.11 > Wordstar 3.3 Calcstar 1.45 CP/M 2.2 > ABASIC P 2509-L / TTY P 2526-L > Grafox Dataplot+ > * P2000C Maintenance Program MN11 > > Also the following copies (I have no idea how a P2012C differs from a > P2000C!): > > P2012C CP/M > P2012C MSDOS Utilities > P2012 Cardbox > P2012-16 CP/M boot disk for MSDOS (P2000C mode) > P2012-16 CP/M boot disk for MSDOS (PC mode) > P2012-16 MSDOS (P2000C mode) System disk > P2012-16 MSDOS (PC mode) System disk > P2012-16 P2012C CP/M MS-boot, MS-util, R/disk copy of master disk > P2012-16 P2012C MSDOS utilities copy of master disk > P2012-16 Copower disk CP/M copy of master disk > P2012-16 Copower disk MSDOS 2.11 copy of master disk > P2012-16 CP/M 2.2, Wordstar 3.3, Calcstar 1.45 copy of master disk > P2012-16 ABASIC P 2509-L TTY P 2526-L copy of master disk > P2012-16 Grafox Dataplot+ copy of master disk > P2012-16 Maintenance program MN11 copy of master disk > P2012-16 Test pattern disk for use with MN11 maintenance software > > > A lot of those copied P2012 disks sound suspiciously like direct copies > of the P2000C originals. What's the difference between the machines? > > What's the easiest way of copying these? I can put a 360K 5.25" drive in > my desktop PC and run off some disk images, assuming they aren't some > oddball format which the PC controller can't cope with. What's the best > software to use? (I can boot MSDOS, Linux or Win 2k on the desktop) Jules, my personal preference is for TeleDisk which runs best on a clean DOS boot. I have used it - in varying iterations -for over ten years. > No idea if data is intact on the disks of course, but they're all boxed > and look to be dust free. I would happily take any images that you cared to forward, but particularly the ones that I marked with an asterisk. - don > I also found the following P2000C documentation, although scanning is > probably out of the question (happy to look stuff up though!): > > P2000C System reference and service manual set > CP/M reference manual > MSDOS user guide > Copower board reference manual > Calcstar manual > Wordstar manuals 1 and 2 > Disk BASIC reference manual > P2000C operator manual > Dataplot+ user and reference manual > Advanced BASIC interpreter operator manual > TTY user guide > CP/M user guide > P2000C software catalogue > > cheers, > > Jules > > From melamy at earthlink.net Sat Jun 26 16:22:48 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question Message-ID: <16545007.1088284968642.JavaMail.root@waldorf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> another reason, the CDC 6400 (circa 1960s) COMPASS assembly language instruction set made sense "opcode" wise to express it in octal. They had 15 bit, 30 bit, and 60 bit instructions with a 60 bit bus. best regards, Steve Thatcher (who does still write in assembler...and most everything else) From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Sat Jun 26 15:59:20 2004 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: "Nobody teaches assembly language" In-Reply-To: <20040626121153.E55662@newshell.lmi.net> References: <20040624013910.6F1E510B2C98@swift.conman.org> <20040623185144.B70782@newshell.lmi.net> <000d01c45ba7$0c3ff280$bb72fea9@geoff> <20040626121153.E55662@newshell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.2.20040626164910.02b34c30@mail.n.ml.org> The same goes for the VP who hired the consulting firm for Carrier Corporation. He was later fired after getting a great deal on central consulting for systems and network management. Everything was leased and the consultants didn't see a reason for the Carrier Engineering staff to use Alphas or Suns. Then, they too got a "great deal" on double the price, leased Dell computers (low-end business class machines, not the $2000.00+ US ones, that well, these lower class ones were priced above). The networking was a laugh too. The consulting firm convinced that same VP (before he was fired) that usin some no-name brand, P.O.S. series of routers and switches was far better than using Cisco equipment. When asked about the savings, he was told by the consultants, "oh, you'll save about 10-20% over buying or leasing the Cisco equipment." One of the engineers got a problem with his departmental router one day after the tiny hours the consultants kept and decided to call the manufacturer to repair said issues himself. First noticeable problem: international number, non-800. Second problem: when reaching them, they did not speak English. Third: It was a small custom builder/manufacturer out of Taiwan. Fourth and final: they had difficulty finding their own staff person who wrote the code for the router, let alone anyone who knew anything of that router series. True story. Most people were wondering why Carrier was doing so bad. It was dumb, money driven, hey it's Windows-based, morons who got put into control somehow. This year is the first year since that VP was fired and lo and behold: they are starting to rebound and actually hire more staff than do massive plant layoffs and shutdowns. I hear next year that they are going to try to get DEC Alphas and AMD Opterons in there for the engineers (Suns use Opterons now too =/ ). -John Boffemmyer IV At 03:15 PM 6/26/2004, you wrote: > > > They hired an incompetent consultant to decide what computers to get. > > > He had an AA degree with a C average. > > > They refused to let any of the instructors, all of whom > > > have BAs, and most MAs, have any input. > >On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Geoffrey Thomas wrote: > > Who was he friendly with - with whom was he friendly -if you like ? > > It's usually the case - all these rats network like hell. > >Do you mean like the time that they got us a "special deal" on >PCs at twice the going rate? > >Equating college administrators to rats is an insult to rodents. > >-- >Grumpy Ol' Fred ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From owad at applefritter.com Sat Jun 26 16:30:03 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> References: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> On Saturday, June 26, 2004, Al Kossow, wrote: >I scan at 400dpi 1bpp and save the pages using group4 compressed TIFFs >which is the maximum res the IS520 scans at. I was doing 150dpi greyscale jpegs. I've changed to 400dpi 1bpp tiffs, and now I'm ending up with each page about 700K... (scan as greyscale tiff (unknown compression), convert to 1-bit with lzw compression, save as pdf in Photoshop). Using tiffcp to change the compression from lzw to g4 more than doubles the size to 1.6 MB. That's for a single page. Surely this is too large? Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From aek at spies.com Sat Jun 26 16:48:07 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) Message-ID: <200406262148.i5QLm7X1014856@spies.com> Using tiffcp to change the compression from lzw to g4 more than doubles the size to 1.6 MB. That's for a single page. -- Something is really broken with what you are doing. A normal 400dpi G4 compressed text page should be 50 - 100k. Scanning though the sizes of a manual I just scanned, it's closer to 15 - 50k / page. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 26 16:41:46 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> from "Tom Jennings" at Jun 26, 4 10:24:21 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 16:47, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation (especially in > > the late '60s timeframe)?" > > I'm a bit skeptical of the printer-hardware answer. Printing calculators > don't care about notation, only humans do. Remember this predates dot matrix printers on calculators. The printers we're talking about had a typewheel with perhaps 12 positions round it (0-9, decimal point, minus sign). Either one per column or one that was shifted across the paper. It would have been possible to make one with 16 characters round the wheel, but I've never seen one. > (Why five? how many fingers you got?) 8 (and 2 thumbs), like most people :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 26 16:44:00 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <40DDB4DE.7050304@citem.org> from "Hans B PUFAL" at Jun 26, 4 07:39:42 pm Message-ID: > >(Why five? how many fingers you got?) > > > > > Don't know if that was the real reason, more important probably was the > fact the 5 bits could > code up to 32 symbols, sufficient for the alphabet. I believe the original Baudot telegraph (probably the first device to use a 5 bit character code) used a 5 key chording keyboard, but I seem to recall you used both hands on it (3 fingers of 1 hand, 2 of the other). The fact that 5 bits allows the complete alphabet is probably the real reason... -tony From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 26 17:02:57 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <200406240029.UAA10951@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000101c45bc9$56f64230$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > > There's also a method I learnt long ago that is laid out in the same > > way as a long division. I've forgotten it because it seemed > > moderately pointless! > > Today, it is, when a computer can cough up several thousand digits in > the time it takes you to work out three by hand. > > Knowing how to do it, though, involves learning enough of the theory > behind it to stand you in good stead in other cases, though. > (Assuming > you actually understand it. Learning how to do it by rote, without > understanding why, _is_ pretty pointless.) I don't remember being taught it - just seeing the method in a book. I don't recall any explanation of *why* it worked. But then I don't recall ever being taught *why* long division works (although I guess it is just "obvious"). Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sat Jun 26 17:05:30 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> References: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> Tom Owad wrote: > > I was doing 150dpi greyscale jpegs. I've changed to 400dpi 1bpp tiffs, > and now I'm ending up with each page about 700K... (scan as greyscale > tiff (unknown compression), convert to 1-bit with lzw compression, save > as pdf in Photoshop). You need to scan at 1bpp, not grayscale. When you are converting from grayscale to 1bpp, you are probably getting dithering (a pseudo-random scattering of black and white pixels) in order to approximate the original grays at the edges of characters. This dithering will ruin the achievable compression in G4, which is a fax algorithm optimised for runs of white and black pixels. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 26 17:26:32 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: "Nobody programs in machine language" (was: Modern In-Reply-To: <20040624002617.HRSL25164.imf23aec.mail.bellsouth.net@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <000201c45bcc$a2037c90$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > >It will be D (or D++, I forget the exact name). > > IIRC Dennis Ritchie's HOPL II paper on C indicates that the D vs. > P question was left intentionally ambiguous. > > Ok, I just looked it up: > > "I decided to follow the single-letter style and called it C, leaving > open the question whether the name represented a progression through > the alphabet or through the letters in BCPL." I just looked it up too and failed to find it. Interesting to re-read it nevertheless. I have seen that somewhere before, but it's not what I was referring to. This is: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/index.html Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From owad at applefritter.com Sat Jun 26 19:15:13 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> References: <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20040627001513.30050@mail.earthlink.net> On Saturday, June 26, 2004, Paul Williams, wrote: >You need to scan at 1bpp, not grayscale. When you are converting from >grayscale to 1bpp, you are probably getting dithering (a pseudo-random >scattering of black and white pixels) in order to approximate the >original grays at the edges of characters. This dithering will ruin the >achievable compression in G4, which is a fax algorithm optimised for >runs of white and black pixels. Ah, ok - I was using dithering. Now I've gotten the images down to 28 KB G4 tiffs, which become 40 KB pdfs. Here's the first three pages, a 152 KB pdf file: . Any reservations about the quality of the file, or anything else, before I start doing a whole bunch more just like this? Thanks! Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Jun 26 19:24:33 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040627001513.30050@mail.earthlink.net> References: <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> <20040627001513.30050@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200406270029.UAA22217@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Here's the first three pages, a 152 KB pdf file: > . Any reservations about the > quality of the file, or anything else, before I start doing a whole > bunch more just like this? Well, I'd rather have the scans, especially in greyscale form. (If you don't want to take the space, I'll happily host them myself, for the sake of preserving the information. For archival purposes like this, I almost always come down on the side of preserving information.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net Sat Jun 26 20:40:10 2004 From: netsurfer_x1 at fastmailbox.net (David Vohs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: More Amiga 2000 help/info needed. Message-ID: <1088300410.20634.199242232@webmail.messagingengine.com> Well, thanks to everyone for their help on my A2000. Now that I've cleaned it out (you wouldn't believe how much dust there was inside!). It seems as though this machine is having some more problems. It now shows the self test screen colors in the following sequence: dark grey-light grey-yellow. Can somebody *please* help me out! I don't want to have to confine this machine to the trashpile! Also, if someone can direct me to a PDF version of the manual, I'd be very appreciative! From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Jun 26 21:10:46 2004 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: More Amiga 2000 help/info needed ---- Boot colors In-Reply-To: <1088300410.20634.199242232@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20040627021046.91363.qmail@web40905.mail.yahoo.com> Dark grey - hardware passed light grey - software passed. Yellow is bad - 68000 CPU detected error http://www.l8r.net/technical/t-startupcolours.shtml http://amiga.emugaming.com/selftest.html --- David Vohs wrote: > Well, thanks to everyone for their help on my A2000. > Now that I've > cleaned it out (you wouldn't believe how much dust > there was inside!). > It seems as though this machine is having some more > problems. It now > shows the self test screen colors in the following > sequence: dark > grey-light grey-yellow. > > Can somebody *please* help me out! I don't want to > have to confine this > machine to the trashpile! > > Also, if someone can direct me to a PDF version of > the manual, I'd be > very appreciative! > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From wacarder at usit.net Sat Jun 26 21:33:14 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: RK05 alignment cartridge Message-ID: Does anyone on the list have an RK05 alignment pack they would like to get rid of? Thanks, Ashley From allain at panix.com Sat Jun 26 21:42:56 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> <20040627001513.30050@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <003001c45bf0$743ab660$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > www.applefritter.com/temp/sample.pdf > Any reservations about the quality of the file, or anything > else, before I start doing a whole bunch more just like this? The bleed between the letters is too great. I pull down the B/W cut-off under such circumstances. The other limit, to stay above in this case, is the point where continuous lines break, E.G "m" starts to look like "ni", "k" like "lc", etc. If you're still using the 150dpi it's a problem. John A. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Jun 26 22:32:17 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch Message-ID: <001301c45bf7$591514a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'm looking for a standalone paper tape reader/punch combo. Something along the lines of like a DSI 2400, but I'd really prefer a facit 4070. Must have Rs232 interface. Perhaps I could trade a tested/refurbed HP21MX cpu for one? or?? Jay West From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 27 00:42:57 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? References: <200406260321.XAA8157092@shell.TheWorld.com> Message-ID: <006c01c45c09$997af610$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> yea the title is correct, and there are all kinds of paperclips in the picture on the cover..... if all else fails, and yes please after all other possibilities are exhausted... I can tear the front off the display to get to it if needed! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Megan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 8:21 PM Subject: Re: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? > I have a copy... it was meant to read a program from "drum" memory, > a coffee can covered by a piece of paper with the appropriate holes > cut it in so paper-clip "brushes" made contact. The problem is that > you then had to (if I remember correctly) make the changes in the > states of the 'flip-flops' yourself and move to the next instruction... > > I'll have to find it and check it out... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL,ST| email: mbg at world.std.com | > | Member of Technical Staff | megan at savaje.com | > | SavaJe Technologies, Inc. | (s/ at /@/) | > | 100 Apollo Drive | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | > | Chelmsford, MA 01824 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | > | (978) 256 6521 (DEC '77-'98) | required." - mbg KB1FCA | > +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > From tomj at wps.com Sun Jun 27 02:36:43 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: <200406262014.QAA21101@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <1088270657.4567.1113.camel@fiche.wps.com> <200406262014.QAA21101@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1088321802.4579.11.camel@linux> On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 13:10, der Mouse wrote: > >> "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation > >> (especially in the late '60s timeframe)?" > > I'm a bit skeptical of the printer-hardware answer. Printing > > calculators don't care about notation, only humans do. > > Right. But: > > - A power-of-two base is important because it maps trivially to and > from binary. > - A base less than ten is important so you can use existing printing > calculator mechanisms (capable of only 0-9) for output. > > That leaves bases 2, 4, and 8. Which one would _you_ pick? You're extrapolating modern ideas backwards. It doesn't work. I would like to see some evidence for "existing printer mechanisms" being the basis for entire notational systems. 2, 4,, 8... is "logical" but that's immaterial -- bi-quinary was used a lot, 1 2 4 8 representations of BCD were not the only ones used, and people insisted on decimal internal representations when it's "obvious" that binary is better. > Another reason to group bits in threes: three divides six, so character > boundaries fall on digit boundaries (ie, the question that started this > thread off would not arise under such a system). Well yes, 6-bit characters, octal is convenient, was my (unstated) intent... I defer to Hans on IBMs history, and he may be right on the 5-bit thing too (I deleted before I got to reply), but Emike Baudot's code was manually entered, and variations of the code sure look like they ended up in ITA2 aka Baudot teleprinter code. From tomj at wps.com Sun Jun 27 02:43:28 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088322207.4579.18.camel@linux> On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 14:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 16:47, David V. Corbin wrote: > > > > > "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation (especially in > > > the late '60s timeframe)?" THere is ABSOLUTELY NO advantage to one scheme over another, globally. Locally, there may be, eg. within a given machine architecture. Remember "split octal" in the 8080 world? A horrible joke, merely because the Intel designers put stuff on byte/nybble boundaries. It doesn't have to be that way, it can be anything. > Remember this predates dot matrix printers on calculators. The printers > we're talking about had a typewheel with perhaps 12 positions round it > (0-9, decimal point, minus sign). Either one per column or one that was > shifted across the paper. Now I'm a bit unclear -- before dot matrix took over the world, print mechanism schemes were almost countless -- belts, bands, drums, baskets, cylinders, wheels, daisies, cups, raster, XY, whatever -- and notation for whatever wacko scheme chosen would be utterly arbitrary. (I miss all the assorted mechanism, it was fun to see and listen to. I don't miss unreliability, incompatibility, mass, cost, ... :-) From tomj at wps.com Sun Jun 27 02:44:08 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088322247.4579.20.camel@linux> On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 14:44, Tony Duell wrote: > The fact that 5 bits allows the complete alphabet is probably the real > reason... I'm sure you are right. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Sun Jun 27 02:45:03 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040627001513.30050@mail.earthlink.net> References: <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> <20040627001513.30050@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <40DE7AFF.7000108@frixxon.co.uk> Tom Owad wrote: > > Here's the first three pages, a 152 KB pdf file: temp/sample.pdf>. Any reservations about the quality of the file, or > anything else, before I start doing a whole bunch more just like this? These scans are still the original 150dpi grayscale scans, down-converted to 1bpp, aren't they? I haven't tried OCRing these pages, but they look as if the bold text especially would upset the program. The best technique is to scan at the *final* colour depth and resolution, so I would suggest rescanning these pages at 400dpi, 1bpp. I used to scan at 600dpi, but for text pages it doesn't produce noticeably better results than 400dpi, and the files are significantly larger. Al has already mentioned Eric Smith's tumble , which does a great job of concatenating a bunch of TIFFs and JPEGs into one PDF file, converting the TIFFs to the best Group 4 compression on the way. It will even allow you to add bookmarks (with some limitations). I used to use tumble, but now I am using the Perl PDF::API2 module, which allows me to take a more hybrid (read: time-consuming!) approach to each page. I now scan text pages at 400dpi, 1bpp and then rescan any pages with photographs at 150dpi or 200dpi grayscale, saved as JPEG. I then crop the JPEG to just the photograph and put that over the top of the TIFF page (having removed the TIFF version of the photograph). That improves the overall page size, because the TIFF compression doesn't have to cope with the inevitable dithering of the photograph. You can see an example of this approach in the ADM-3A Maintenance Manual at (124pp, 7.8 MiB). This manual has a bookmarked Table of Contents, photographs and text on the same page, and a colour schematic of the double-sided PCB at the back. -- Paul From cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 27 00:04:46 2004 From: cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com (Curt Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS Message-ID: <20040627050446.84001.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> I know there are lots of utility programs that can create image files of floppy disks for MS-DOS. Instead of having to write the image file back to a physical floppy disk, are there any programs that can "mount" disk images to make it appear to MS-DOS as if the original floppy disk is in a drive? As an example of what I am looking for, "Disk Copy 6.x" can do this for the Macintosh. - Curt __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From esharpe at cox.net Sun Jun 27 00:29:17 2004 From: esharpe at cox.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Bob Bemer, father of ASCII and the Esc ....Computer Pioneer Passed Away This Week at Age 84. Message-ID: <003001c45c07$b0c28100$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Bob Bemer, Computer Pioneer, Passed Away This Week at Age 84. See links: The Obituary: http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/06/23/obit.bemer.ap/index.html Bob's Web site http://www.bobbemer.com a.. At Lockheed, he devised the first computerized 3-D dynamic perspective, prelude to today's computer animation. b.. At IBM, he developed a.. PRINT I (the first load-and-go computer method), b.. FORTRANSIT (the first major proof of intercomputer portability, and the second FORTRAN compiler), c.. Commercial Translator (a COBOL input), and d.. XTRAN (an ALGOL predecessor). c.. In 1957 March he was the first to describe commercial timesharing publicly, which evolved into the Worldwide Web. d.. In 1959 his internal IBM memo proposed word processing. e.. The Identification and Environment Divisions of COBOL are due to him, as is the Picture Clause, which could have avoided the Year 2000 problem if used correctly. f.. He coined the terms "COBOL", "CODASYL", and "Software Factory". g.. He was the major force in developing ASCII (contributing 10 characters -- ESCape (see that key), FS, GS, RS, US, {, }, [, ], and the backslash). He invented the escape sequence and registry concept, and is called the "Father of ASCII". h.. He wrote the original scope and program of work for international and national computer standards, and chaired the international committee for programming language standards for eleven years. i.. As editor of the Honeywell Computer Journal (the first A4-size publication [1971] in the U.S.) he innovated fiche-of-the-issue and multimedia publishing. j.. He is recognized as the first person in the world to publish warnings of the Year 2000 problem -- first in 1971, and again in 1979. k.. And..... more! go to his site to learn more..... Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC Please check our web site at http://www.smecc.org to see other engineering fields, communications and computation stuff we buy, and by all means when in Arizona drop in and see us. address: coury house / smecc 5802 w palmaire ave glendale az 85301 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 27 05:38:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> References: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1088332704.22804.10.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sat, 2004-06-26 at 21:30, Tom Owad wrote: > I was doing 150dpi greyscale jpegs. I've changed to 400dpi 1bpp tiffs, Personally I do greyscale TIFF images at 8bpp - I wouldn't want to risk something not being able to process the data at a later date, and storage is cheap. I'm not set up for messing around with images on the system I'm typing this on in order to test, but if using 4bpp results in a file size reduction then that would probably be sufficient (I can't remember how TIFF handles 'odd' palette sizes when encoding the pixel data) Personally I find just looking at stuff encoded at 1bpp can be hard on the eyes due to harsh pixellated edges on text. Plus if you're dealing with source media that's dirty, faded, printouts, or photocopies of originals then encoding at 1bpp could rule out any later OCR process. Storage is cheap these days - go for maximum possible quality (and archive the data elsewhere, keeping your own lower quality copies if you don't have the storage space). Of course if you're just doing this for your own personal benefit then it's less of an issue - but if you're doing it to preserve data for others then it makes sense to only have to scan stuff once! cheers, Jules From als at thangorodrim.de Sun Jun 27 07:23:55 2004 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040626152716.7657@mail.earthlink.net> References: <20040626152716.7657@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Jun 26, 2004 at 11:27:16AM -0400, Tom Owad wrote: > I have a lot of manuals I want to scan and am trying to decide upon the > best format. I'd like some opinions on the following scans of a 128-page > Franklin AceWriter manual. > > On the low end is a pdf of bitmap images. It's hideous, but only 3.5 MB. > > The high end is a 40 MB pdf of jpeg images. This one's easy on the eyes, > but is an awfully large download and I'm wondering if it might not print > as nicely as the bitmap. JPEG ist absolutely evil for anything that doesn't match the design area of it - namely, basically compressing photo (-like) images. Using JPEG for black-and-white is a bad idea (yes, there is a special monochrome subformat of JPEG, designed to deal gracefully with monochrome images, but almost nobody uses it where it would be appropriate). > In the middle is a pdf of compressed jpegs at 15 MB. This looks good to > my eyes, I just wonder about using compressed jpegs for archiving... > > (3.5 MB) > (15 MB) > (40 MB) > (Disregard the incorrect ordering of the pages.) > > Thoughts? Which of the three would you most want to download? I'm scanning anything for archival with 600 dpi monochrome, save it as TIFF G4 compressed images, then convert those into PDF (using tumble, a great tool) and Djvu as well, also tarring up the TIFFs. This leaves me with 3 files for each (multipage) document: - .tar - the archived raw .tiff files, - .pdf - the .tiff converted to .pdf (basically a PDF wrapper around a collection of Fax G4 compressed TIFF images), - .djvu - the .tiff converted to .djvu An example for a scan from a german computer magazine, 4 pages of A4 paper, full page scans: - djvu 430962 bytes - pdf 1505417 bytes - tar 1566720 bytes The reason for the (rather high) 600 dpi is simple: printing those back on the laser printer results in very high quality copies - far better that what most copy machines are capable of. It also result in a sufficiently high image quality that you can later feed the .tiff to an OCR software (which is another reason for keeping the original TIFF files). Dropping the resolution by half to 300 dpi would cut the filesize down to 25% of the above. But anything lower than 300 dpi might just be too lossy. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 27 07:21:48 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS In-Reply-To: <20040627050446.84001.qmail@web52903.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Maybe I didn't understand what you're asking but it sounds lo me like what you want is a RAM-disk program. Those have been shipping with MS-DOS ever since version 2.11 or thereabouts. Joe At 10:04 PM 6/26/04 -0700, you wrote: > >I know there are lots of utility programs that can >create image files of floppy disks for MS-DOS. >Instead of having to write the image file back to a >physical floppy disk, are there any programs that can >"mount" disk images to make it appear to MS-DOS as if >the original floppy disk is in a drive? As an example >of what I am looking for, "Disk Copy 6.x" can do this >for the Macintosh. >- Curt > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around >http://mail.yahoo.com > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 27 07:43:06 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: pinging ed sharpe Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040627084306.008f2100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Ed, I seem to be having trouble getting messages through to you. I've sent you a number of messages about the MIT books including two more yesterday but the only time that I have gotten a response is when I post a message here. Do you have an alternate E-mail address that works? I'm interested in the Rad Lab yearbook and I can offer cash or a trade. Let me know which you want. Joe From pbmain at wideopenwest.com Sun Jun 27 10:06:33 2004 From: pbmain at wideopenwest.com (Pete Bartusek) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: DiversiDial Software Outthere? Message-ID: <200406271506.i5RF6GU01270@pop-6.dnv.wideopenwest.com> Does anyone out there have DiversiDial software for the Apple II? Would love to find a copy, if possible... Pete From dvcorbin at optonline.net Sun Jun 27 10:28:01 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony, I was actually refereing to even earlier printing calculators that had a single vertical bar per position with the numbers 0-9 on each one. The bar would be raised/lowered an an individual striker per position would fire. There as no left-right movement along a "carriage". The first machine I saw this etup on was in the mid-60's at one of the companies my dad worked for. Don't recall the computer model, but it was always refered to as "the old system", actual (program) input and display on the front panel was binary toggle swithes. I had pictures, and stuff that were destroyed in the "great storage unit flood" a few years back. A quick Google did not turn up any hits, but I have sent off a few e-mails to some people who yorked with my dad back in the day, to see if they remember anything..... David. >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell >>> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 5:42 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP >>> assembler question >>> >>> > >>> > On Fri, 2004-06-25 at 16:47, David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > >>> > > "What significant advantage did octal have over hex notation >>> > > (especially in the late '60s timeframe)?" >>> > >>> > I'm a bit skeptical of the printer-hardware answer. Printing >>> > calculators don't care about notation, only humans do. >>> >>> Remember this predates dot matrix printers on calculators. >>> The printers we're talking about had a typewheel with >>> perhaps 12 positions round it (0-9, decimal point, minus >>> sign). Either one per column or one that was shifted across >>> the paper. >>> >>> It would have been possible to make one with 16 characters >>> round the wheel, but I've never seen one. >>> >>> > (Why five? how many fingers you got?) >>> >>> 8 (and 2 thumbs), like most people :-) >>> >>> -tony >>> From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 27 10:45:13 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: pinging ed sharpe References: <3.0.6.32.20040627084306.008f2100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <003801c45c5d$bc7c1960$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> found your message! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: pinging ed sharpe > Ed, > > I seem to be having trouble getting messages through to you. I've sent > you a number of messages about the MIT books including two more yesterday > but the only time that I have gotten a response is when I post a message here. > > Do you have an alternate E-mail address that works? > > I'm interested in the Rad Lab yearbook and I can offer cash or a trade. > Let me know which you want. > > Joe > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 27 10:46:57 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:52 2005 Subject: pinging ed sharpe References: <3.0.6.32.20040627084306.008f2100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004401c45c5d$fa913230$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> it is really curious... outlook it seems puts some messages from other threads sometimes in another collapsed thread.... does anyone know a reason for this? ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:43 AM Subject: pinging ed sharpe > Ed, > > I seem to be having trouble getting messages through to you. I've sent > you a number of messages about the MIT books including two more yesterday > but the only time that I have gotten a response is when I post a message here. > > Do you have an alternate E-mail address that works? > > I'm interested in the Rad Lab yearbook and I can offer cash or a trade. > Let me know which you want. > > Joe > > > From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 27 11:01:08 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: pinging ed sharpe References: <3.0.6.32.20040627084306.008f2100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <004401c45c5d$fa913230$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> Message-ID: <00b301c45c5f$f5837c60$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> actually I am using outlook express not outlook ----- Original Message ----- From: "ed sharpe" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 8:46 AM Subject: Re: pinging ed sharpe > it is really curious... outlook it seems puts some messages from other > threads sometimes in another collapsed thread.... does anyone know a > reason for this? > ed! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe R." > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 5:43 AM > Subject: pinging ed sharpe > > > > Ed, > > > > I seem to be having trouble getting messages through to you. I've sent > > you a number of messages about the MIT books including two more yesterday > > but the only time that I have gotten a response is when I post a message > here. > > > > Do you have an alternate E-mail address that works? > > > > I'm interested in the Rad Lab yearbook and I can offer cash or a trade. > > Let me know which you want. > > > > Joe > > > > > > > > > > From waltje at pdp11.nl Sun Jun 27 10:57:44 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: <200406260709.00014.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Hi All, > You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan > them to Al Kossow so he can archive them. OK, will do. This will actually NOT make KLM scream at me, for once :) Since I do not "do" anything with these systems, are there any PDP-9, -12 and/or -15 collectors who would want to take these, after Al copies them? Cheers, Fred From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jun 27 11:14:02 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406270914.02970.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Robert Garner has both a PDP-12 and PDP-15 and he's local (San Jose area). I suspect he'd want them for sure. Lyle On Sunday 27 June 2004 08:57, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi All, > > > You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan > > them to Al Kossow so he can archive them. > > OK, will do. This will actually NOT make KLM scream at me, for > once :) Since I do not "do" anything with these systems, are > there any PDP-9, -12 and/or -15 collectors who would want to > take these, after Al copies them? > > Cheers, > > Fred -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jun 27 11:14:02 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406270914.02970.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Robert Garner has both a PDP-12 and PDP-15 and he's local (San Jose area). I suspect he'd want them for sure. Lyle On Sunday 27 June 2004 08:57, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > Hi All, > > > You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan > > them to Al Kossow so he can archive them. > > OK, will do. This will actually NOT make KLM scream at me, for > once :) Since I do not "do" anything with these systems, are > there any PDP-9, -12 and/or -15 collectors who would want to > take these, after Al copies them? > > Cheers, > > Fred -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rcini at optonline.net Sun Jun 27 11:39:29 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: TI74 AC adapter specs Message-ID: <001e01c45c65$51d607d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Hi: Does anyone have the TI AC-9201 adapter handy that they could grab tell me the specs and plug polarity? Thanks. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 27 12:15:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: <001301c45bf7$591514a0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 26, 4 10:32:17 pm Message-ID: > > I'm looking for a standalone paper tape reader/punch combo. Something along > the lines of like a DSI 2400, but I'd really prefer a facit 4070. Must have > Rs232 interface. Most 4070s have a custom parallel interface (which is not too hard to link up to other things, actually). There is a serial card for them which fits inside the case and gives RS232 and current loop interfaces, but it's _very_ hard to find. Even rarer (read : I've never seen one) is the GPIB interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 27 12:26:53 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: character codes, was RE: Really stupid PDP assembler question In-Reply-To: from "David V. Corbin" at Jun 27, 4 11:28:01 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > I was actually refereing to even earlier printing calculators that had a > single vertical bar per position with the numbers 0-9 on each one. The bar I remember those, just, but only on fully mechanical calculators. But I also haev a Victor Comptometer calculator with solenoids mounted over the keys that was used as a printer on a data logging system, so maybe such machines were hacked onto computers too. > would be raised/lowered an an individual striker per position would fire. > There as no left-right movement along a "carriage". The first machine I saw I've seen early 70's calculators with tiny drum printers. A drum the full width of the paper -- perhaps 15 columns -- with the digits, -ve sign, decimal point, round it and a row of hammers that print the approriate characters. I've also seen them with a typewheel per column which were positioned and then all columns printed simultaneously. And then I've seen one with a carriage containing a single typewheel and a hammer mechanism. One of the strangest printers I've seen came off the data logger for a gas chromatagraph (a Kent Chromalog II if anyone wants to try to find details). There was a typewheel per column with a solenoid to step it round one posisition, and a switch that gave a carry function. It was essentially a long ripple counter. There was a hammer assembly the full width of the paper. You fed in the pulses (the instrument was essentially an integrator), and at hte approrpriate time you fired the hammer. I can't rememebr how the reset-to-zero worked. I don't think there was a separate solenooid for that. Maybe you just fed in a clock signal to all solenoids together and turned each one off when the carry contact flipped or something. -tony From esharpe at uswest.net Sun Jun 27 12:39:39 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found References: <200406270914.02970.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <00db01c45c6d$b9015740$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> do not have a 15, but do have a twelve we are figuring out how to move here! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lyle Bickley" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Fred N. van Kempen" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Al Kossow" Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 9:14 AM Subject: Re: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found > Robert Garner has both a PDP-12 and PDP-15 and he's local (San Jose area). I > suspect he'd want them for sure. > > Lyle > > On Sunday 27 June 2004 08:57, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > > You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan > > > them to Al Kossow so he can archive them. > > > > OK, will do. This will actually NOT make KLM scream at me, for > > once :) Since I do not "do" anything with these systems, are > > there any PDP-9, -12 and/or -15 collectors who would want to > > take these, after Al copies them? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Fred > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > > From owad at applefritter.com Sun Jun 27 12:59:04 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> What I'm leaning towards now is making two sets: one for archiving and one for distribution. The archival images will be 600dpi greyscale TIFFs. They will not be converted to pdf, but just stored as TIFFs. The images intended for download and distribution will be 200dpi greyscale JPEGs. Using these, I expect a 128-page download to be about 20 MB. While perhaps not suitable for ocr, these images are very comfortable to read on-screen, and can later be replaced with improved versions made from the original 600dpi TIFFs. I know a lot of you expressed concerns about JPEGs, but I haven't been able to get anywhere near the compression using other methods, for greyscale images. Am I overlooking any options? Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Jun 27 13:00:57 2004 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos en Marian) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40DF0B59.3020209@bluewin.ch> > > Most 4070s have a custom parallel interface (which is not too hard to > link up to other things, actually). There is a serial card for them which > fits inside the case and gives RS232 and current loop interfaces, but > it's _very_ hard to find. I have this card. It is a while ago since I last looked at it, but iirc it didn't look too complex. If anyone wants to reconstruct this card, feel free to contact me. Jos From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Sun Jun 27 12:23:47 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20040628042347.0122da14@pop-server> I picked a HP-110 Plus (the German version, if it matters) recently, but the power supply was nowhere to be found. Does anybody have the pinout and voltage/current requirements? Failing that, would it be safe to remove the battery and connect a 6VDC power supply to the battery terminals? From vcf at siconic.com Sun Jun 27 13:39:37 2004 From: vcf at siconic.com (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: Elf breaks the $1000 barrier Message-ID: This is the first time I've seen a Cosmac system go for so much: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5101751742&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1 $1275 Nice setup, though. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 27 13:47:11 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200406271848.OAA02414@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > I know a lot of you expressed concerns about JPEGs, but I haven't > been able to get anywhere near the compression using other methods, > for greyscale images. Given the 600dpi archival copy, stored uncompressed (or losslessly compressed), I have no issues whatever with distributing low-res jpegged versions for most uses. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 27 14:01:09 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password Message-ID: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> OK, this is driving me nuts. I picked up an SGI Iris Indigo the other day which seems to run quite happily (as seems compulsory with old SGI machines, it did *not* come with a keyboard). I don't however know the root password. I do have another system SCSI disk for which I know the root password, so I can boot with that and the 'new' drive as a secondary disk, then mount and access the new disk's root partition from there. Right, the 'new' machine has IRIX 5.3 installed, and is using shadow passwords. So, first I tried editing the passwd file and just clearing the password field for root's entry (which was just set to 'x', presumably to signify the use of a shadow password), then booting from the 'new' disk with the cleared password. That didn't work - it just gave me an invalid login message. So instead I tried the same, but cleared the encrypted password string in the /etc/shadow file. Still no luck. I've now tried with and without the 'x' present in the passwd file, and with and without the encrypted password string in the shadow file. A few possibilities spring to mind: 1) IRIX 5.3 doesn't allow direct root login on the X console? 2) The system's set up to use some sort of authentication other than /etc/passwd - any pointers for what to look for if so? 3) The system's set to read from a file other then /etc/shadow - no idea where this is set up if so. I did quite a bit of work using newer SGI systems with IRIX 6.5.3 a few years ago, but I'm pretty rusty there - plus I've never seriously used earlier IRIX releases. Oh, anyone have install media for IRIX 4.0.5 and 5.3? (Our first Indigo's running 4.0.5). Be nice to be able to rebuild the machines if/when the OS drives fail! cheers, Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 27 13:40:06 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040628042347.0122da14@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> The HP Portable and Portable Plus use the same power supply that's used for most of the HP-IL devices. It's also used for the HP-71 and 75 calculators and the rechargable battery pack for the HP-41. It will also operate the HP-91, 92 and 97 but their ORIGINAL power supplies are slightly different. In the US the charger is a HP 82059 but they also make different versions to match the AC voltages and outlets in most other countries. The output on all of them is 8 VAC. I don't remember the current but it's about 150 Ma IIRC. Look at for pictures. The batteries in the PP and PP+ are a pain. They're lead acid and they are individual cylinders. So if you let them run down for very long, it will ruin them and they're not an easy style to find. IIRC they're X size which is slightly larger than standard D size. Joe At 04:23 AM 6/28/04 +1100, you wrote: > >I picked a HP-110 Plus (the German version, if it matters) recently, but >the power supply was nowhere to be found. > >Does anybody have the pinout and voltage/current requirements? > >Failing that, would it be safe to remove the battery and connect a 6VDC >power supply to the battery terminals? > > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 27 14:19:34 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1088363974.22804.85.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 17:59, Tom Owad wrote: > The archival images will be 600dpi greyscale TIFFs. They will not be > converted to pdf, but just stored as TIFFs. I tend to do that too. I'd much rather use my favourite image viewer to flick through images than deal with a pdf file, plus I can just put everything in a tar or zip archive if I do need to distribute as a single file. I've not reached a conclusion for what the best format is for OCRed data which may contain text and images. RTF is maybe the most portable, but no doubt it doesn't handle embedded imagery. MS Word is just a nasty format and none too portable either. I never thought I'd say it, but maybe wrapping the data up in *simple* HTML markup is the best way - at least then it is readable in a plain-text editor, and finding a machine with a web browser is probably easier than finding a machine with Word installed. > The images intended for download and distribution will be 200dpi > greyscale JPEGs. Using these, I expect a 128-page download to be about > 20 MB. Actually, I suppose seperate images can help here too as people can navigate straight away to what they want, plus they don't need to download the whole of a huge pdf file before they can start reading. > I know a lot of you expressed concerns about JPEGs, but I haven't been > able to get anywhere near the compression using other methods, for > greyscale images. Am I overlooking any options? Probably not. JPEG is lossy after all, so I expect it'll always do better than a non-lossy format. It's a tradeoff between size and quality - personally I'd always go for the quality for historical data. Actually, the BBC Documentation Project for the old Acorn 8 bit machines at http://www.bbcdocs.com is worth a look. They seem to do quite well in terms of getting both scanning and OCR volunteers. Only problem is that you need to be *really* sure that your OCR versions are good before you can risk taking the raw scans offline, which means having a lot of people doing a lot of proofreading. But OCR data will typically be a fraction of the size of raw image scans, regardless of what resolution / format you hold images in. Just keep raw image scans in an offline archive then just in case. cheers, Jules From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 27 14:40:11 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <1088363974.22804.85.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I tend to do that too. I'd much rather use my favourite image > viewer to > flick through images than deal with a pdf file, plus I can just put > everything in a tar or zip archive if I do need to distribute as a > single file. I have to admit that I prefer pdf, just because all the platforms I use have a decent pdf reader. (Well, xpdf on OpenVMS VAX is slow, but then I guess my expectations are at fault there :-)) > I never thought I'd say it, but maybe wrapping the data up in *simple* > HTML markup is the best way - at least then it is readable in a > plain-text editor, and finding a machine with a web browser > is probably > easier than finding a machine with Word installed. If you've OCRed the data, HTML is probably fine for pure text. Once you start to have text + images then you have a bunch of files to keep tied together. You could zip them up but PDF works well for me here too. I believe (but have not tried) that you can go from PDF to text in this case without any great difficulty (I don't recall what happens to images). > Actually, I suppose seperate images can help here too as people can > navigate straight away to what they want, plus they don't need to > download the whole of a huge pdf file before they can start reading. I prefer to grab the whole thing anyway. Today I might just want the frobozz pinout, but tomorrow I'm almost certain to need the lead engineer's middle initial, by which time I'll have forgotten where I found the docs in the first place. > > I know a lot of you expressed concerns about JPEGs, but I > haven't been > > able to get anywhere near the compression using other methods, for > > greyscale images. Am I overlooking any options? > > Probably not. JPEG is lossy after all, so I expect it'll always do > better than a non-lossy format. It's a tradeoff between size > and quality As has been pointed out (quite a few times on this list, I think), JPEG is very poor for text and line drawings. JPEG is better than nothing, but the archived version should be in something more appropriate (and lossless). > problem is that > you need to be *really* sure that your OCR versions are good > before you > can risk taking the raw scans offline, which means having a lot of Once I've generated a raw scan (or picked up someone elses) I expect to keep it around essentially forever. OCR has improved immensely in the last few years, but not to the point where I can throw a scan of a poor quality photocopy at it and expect something that looks like the original with zero errors. (The Module/Options list that Eric Smith scanned would be an excellent torture test for any candidate "perfect" OCR program). Another point is that if you have high quality scans, why keep them to yourself? By all means have low-res versions available for those who just need a page or two or just need to look something up quickly and don't care about the artefacts, but make the "masters" available too. If you don't have the space yourself, there are people on this list who seem to have no problem with online disk space. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From marvin at rain.org Sun Jun 27 15:17:23 2004 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys, was Re: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? References: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <40DF2B53.7CD94138@rain.org> I just found out about a new type of battery charger called the BatteryMinder that will (it is claimed) rejuvenate Lead/Acid batteries that are dead due to sulphating. A friend of mine used one on a battery that had been totally discharged for too long, and was able to recover it. He sent me a 12v one and I am looking around for some batteries to try it out ... like a couple of dozen Sharp PC-5000 lead/acid batteries :). If this works on *old* lead acid batteries, I will be one happy camper :)! If anyone is curious, their web site is at: http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder.htm "Joe R." wrote: > > The batteries in the PP and PP+ are a pain. They're lead acid and they > are individual cylinders. So if you let them run down for very long, it > will ruin them and they're not an easy style to find. IIRC they're X size > which is slightly larger than standard D size. From whdawson at localisps.net Sun Jun 27 15:36:54 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: TI74 AC adapter specs In-Reply-To: <001e01c45c65$51d607d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: Rich, I have an AC-9200, which IIRC is the switchable 115/230v version. Mine was made in August of 1974. >From the back of the cube: CAT. NO. 3-2755 115/230V 8VAC 50/60 Hz 100MA. 8W POWER LOAD SUPPLY I guess the plug polarity answer is obvious d8^) Mine came with a new in the box SR-11 that I found curbside last fall. I replaced the NiCads and now it works "as good as new". Bill > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:39 > To: CCTalk (E-mail) > Subject: TI74 AC adapter specs > > > Hi: > > Does anyone have the TI AC-9201 adapter handy that they > could grab tell me > the specs and plug polarity? Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 27 15:41:26 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > If you've OCRed the data, HTML is probably fine for pure text. Ugh! Please, no! For pure text, use - pure text! HTML is maybe appropriate for serving it up on the Web, but even there, I'd much prefer text/plain for something that is indeed plain text. > I believe (but have not tried) that you can go from PDF to text in > this case without any great difficulty Well, _I_ can't. Or at least if I can I have no idea how. GhostScript (the only open-source PDF reader I know of) doesn't seem to have a plain-text output option. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 27 15:45:53 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: <1088369152.22804.122.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 19:40, Antonio Carlini wrote: > (Well, xpdf on OpenVMS VAX is slow, but then I > guess my expectations are at fault there :-)) It seems to be bloody horrible on modern versions of Linux, too :-( (well, at least on Redhat 9) Slow as hell, plus the rendering quality is pretty awful. True that most systems have PDF viewers, but they're more likely to have an image displayer and a text editor ;-) > I believe (but have not tried) that you can go > from PDF to text in this case without any great > difficulty (I don't recall what happens to images). What's the current licencing for PDF tools? I've pretty much avoided it since the days when the reader was free, but anything (at least from Adobe) which created or manipulated PDF files cost $$$ I believe the data format itself was copyrighted - but presumably isn't these days what with all the 3rd-party viewers out there? > > Actually, I suppose seperate images can help here too as people can > > navigate straight away to what they want, plus they don't need to > > download the whole of a huge pdf file before they can start reading. > > I prefer to grab the whole thing anyway. Today I might > just want the frobozz pinout, but tomorrow I'm almost > certain to need the lead engineer's middle initial, > by which time I'll have forgotten where I found the > docs in the first place. Oh sure, me too. I make use of wget an awful lot to create local copies of useful bits of websites for instance, but if I'm looking for something then and there then it's nice to be able to at least look at the navigation up-front (particularly to see if the whole thing's actually relevant anyway!) and quickly start reading the most-useful bits whilst downloading the whole lot as a background job. > > problem is that > > you need to be *really* sure that your OCR versions are good > > before you > > can risk taking the raw scans offline, which means having a lot of > > Once I've generated a raw scan (or picked up someone elses) > I expect to keep it around essentially forever. OCR has improved > immensely in the last few years, but not to the point where > I can throw a scan of a poor quality photocopy at it and expect > something that looks like the original with zero errors. > (The Module/Options list that Eric Smith scanned would be > an excellent torture test for any candidate "perfect" OCR program). > > Another point is that if you have high quality scans, why > keep them to yourself? By all means have low-res versions > available for those who just need a page or two or just > need to look something up quickly and don't care about > the artefacts, but make the "masters" available too. If you > don't have the space yourself, there are people on this list > who seem to have no problem with online disk space. Fair point. I'd never completely delete high-quality scans - but as you say, there are quite a few people around who seem to be set up for hosting huge amounts of data! Hmm, how editable are PDF files by the way? On the OCR front, I'd expect anyone OCRing anything to proofread it afterwards and correct mistakes (which is of course vital for technical data anyway - technical data with mistakes in is useless!). So unless wordprocessor-like tools exist to edit PDF files then I wouldn't think they're much good as an intermediate format, because people need to be able to go in there and easily correct mistakes made by the OCR software. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 27 15:45:50 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040628042347.0122da14@pop-server> from "Dr. Ido" at Jun 28, 4 04:23:47 am Message-ID: > > I picked a HP-110 Plus (the German version, if it matters) recently, but > the power supply was nowhere to be found. > > Does anybody have the pinout and voltage/current requirements? It's 8V AC (so there's no pinout information as such) from a 3VA transformer of some 11 ohms internal resistance (and yes, that is important according to the technical reference manual which I happen to have). Incidnetlaly, the HP adapter has a pair of inverse-series 27V zener diodes moulded into the output socket. Not many people know they're there [1]... It uses the same PSU/charger as many other HP products (HP10, HP19C, HP91, HP92, HP95C, HP97, HP97S, HP41 (with rechargeable pack), HP71B, HP75C/D, HP82161, HP82162, HP82163, HP82164, HP82165, HP82168, HP82169, HP2225B, HP9114A/B, etc). This is a very common and easy-to-find adapter, post an advert on the museum of HP calculators (http://www.hpmuseum.org) and you should get some replies. [1] For the HP hackers here, that's also the difference between the -A and -B adapters for the Woodstock and Spice series of calculators. The latter, designed for machines with continuous memory, have the zeners to remove spikes that could otherwise corrupt memory contents. > > Failing that, would it be safe to remove the battery and connect a 6VDC > power supply to the battery terminals? Should be OK, but of course you'll lose the memory contents (including the A: ramdisk) and configuration data when you turn the PSU off. FWIW I have both the service manual and technical manual for the 110+ (Portable Plus) and can look things up if you need me to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 27 15:48:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: <40DF0B59.3020209@bluewin.ch> from "Jos en Marian" at Jun 27, 4 08:00:57 pm Message-ID: [4070 serial card] > I have this card. It is a while ago since I last looked at it, but iirc > it didn't look too complex. If anyone wants to reconstruct this card, It's not that complex. There's the normal 40 pin UART and some TTL for things like baud rate generation, interfacing to the 4070, etc. One feature is a pair of '157 muxes which let you substitute a fixed cheacter if you get a parity error or similar. I've never actually used that though. Half the PCB is covered with the jumper instructions etched into the copper. Very useful! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 27 15:51:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> from "Joe R." at Jun 27, 4 02:40:06 pm Message-ID: > The batteries in the PP and PP+ are a pain. They're lead acid and they > are individual cylinders. So if you let them run down for very long, it Some Portable Plues in the UK were fitted with Panasonic 'block' lead acid battereis which are even more of a pain!. I believe they were available recently, but the minimum order was 1000 units or sometime ridiculous. > will ruin them and they're not an easy style to find. IIRC they're X size > which is slightly larger than standard D size. The 2.5Ah Cyclon cells are easily available and fit perfectly (my 110 and Portable Pluese have those in them now). They also can be fitted in the 9114 disk drive battery packs and at least in the UK are a lot easier to get than the block batteries (RS components and Farnell list them I think). -tony From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 27 16:10:28 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1088370628.22804.132.camel@weka.localdomain> On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 20:41, der Mouse wrote: > > If you've OCRed the data, HTML is probably fine for pure text. > > Ugh! Please, no! For pure text, use - pure text! Ahh, my point was that this would be text + images (well, typically). I *hate* HTML for any document type stuff, but in this case it seems like it *might* be the best option, considering the alternatives :-( If it's simple markup without all sorts of extra HTML crap then *maybe* it'd be OK. I honestly don't know :-) Of course then there's the question - do you preserve an old document in the format which the author intended (complete with typos, any bad layout etc.), or is the intention to just preserve textual/graphical data - possibly losing font and layout information in the process? cheers Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 27 16:06:26 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys, was Re: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: <40DF2B53.7CD94138@rain.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040627170626.00867830@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> If it works, we'll ALL be happy campers! Keep me posted with your results. Joe At 01:17 PM 6/27/04 -0700, you wrote: > > >I just found out about a new type of battery charger called the >BatteryMinder that will (it is claimed) rejuvenate Lead/Acid batteries >that are dead due to sulphating. A friend of mine used one on a battery >that had been totally discharged for too long, and was able to recover >it. He sent me a 12v one and I am looking around for some batteries to >try it out ... like a couple of dozen Sharp PC-5000 lead/acid batteries >:). If this works on *old* lead acid batteries, I will be one happy >camper :)! > >If anyone is curious, their web site is at: >http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder.htm > >"Joe R." wrote: > >> >> The batteries in the PP and PP+ are a pain. They're lead acid and they >> are individual cylinders. So if you let them run down for very long, it >> will ruin them and they're not an easy style to find. IIRC they're X size >> which is slightly larger than standard D size. > > From dholland at woh.rr.com Sun Jun 27 16:35:44 2004 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 16:41, der Mouse wrote: > > Well, _I_ can't. Or at least if I can I have no idea how. GhostScript > (the only open-source PDF reader I know of) doesn't seem to have a > plain-text output option. ps2ascii There's also a reference to pstotext in the man page pointing here. http://www.research.compaq.com/SRC/virtualpaper/pstotext.html Looks like ps2ascii a standard bit of code w/ at least gs 7.x David > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 27 16:39:28 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <200406272147.RAA04560@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> Well, _I_ can't. Or at least if I can I have no idea how. >> GhostScript (the only open-source PDF reader I know of) doesn't seem >> to have a plain-text output option. > ps2ascii Woo. Cool. I wouldn't've tried it directly, because "ps" doesn't say "PDF" to me. (I also didn't know it existed; when I went looking for PDF converters, I looked for "*pdf*", which of course doesn't find ps2ascii.) Thank you very much. I suspect this will come in handy for more than just what I originally wanted it for. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 27 16:53:23 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <1088370628.22804.132.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <005601c45c91$2bdbe0a0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I *hate* HTML for any document type stuff, but in this case it seems > like it *might* be the best option, considering the alternatives :-( HTML is just text and, if push comes to shove, is easy to discard with a simple matter of programming. For anything else, (TIFF, PDF, whatever) more programming effort is required to come up with searchable text. > If it's simple markup without all sorts of extra HTML crap > then *maybe* > it'd be OK. I honestly don't know :-) The main advantage of html (as I see it) is that you can keep the flow of text and pictures roughly as it was meant to be (rather than having text full of "see figure 1"). > Of course then there's the question - do you preserve an old > document in > the format which the author intended (complete with typos, any bad > layout etc.), or is the intention to just preserve textual/graphical > data - possibly losing font and layout information in the process? Well the British Library are spending a good deal on digitising all their old stuff (Magna Carta, that kind of thing). They are (apparently) taking high resolution photographs (at resolutions sufficiently high that you would not dare say "600 dpi" in the same room) and making them available on the net (eventually). I don't know if they are using digital cameras (not your average high street jobbies here!) or using high quality film cameras and then digitising. Either way, if they are going to all that trouble for their stuff, surely we can do the same for stuff that really matters :-) Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 27 16:47:56 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <1088369152.22804.122.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <005501c45c90$69129cd0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > It seems to be bloody horrible on modern versions of Linux, too :-( > (well, at least on Redhat 9) Slow as hell, plus the rendering > quality is > pretty awful. I have a 2.8GHz Intel box running Debian at work and that works quite nicely (firefox and xpdf IIRC). I also have a 450MHz Intel box running Windows and Acrobat 6 on that runs like something that died quite a while ago :-) > True that most systems have PDF viewers, but they're more > likely to have > an image displayer and a text editor ;-) For anything current, I expect all three to be available. For anything classic, you cannot expect more than a text editor to be around. But I don't expect to read schematics on a WT78! > What's the current licencing for PDF tools? I've pretty much > avoided it > since the days when the reader was free, but anything (at least from > Adobe) which created or manipulated PDF files cost $$$ > > I believe the data format itself was copyrighted - but > presumably isn't > these days what with all the 3rd-party viewers out there? The Adobe stuff you pay for (although the reader is free on a few platforms). The specifications are freely available and I've not seen anything that says you cannot implement your own reader. Perhaps they want you to pay if you implement a writer but I expect not since Eric Smith's tumble is free. > Hmm, how editable are PDF files by the way? On the OCR front, > I'd expect > anyone OCRing anything to proofread it afterwards and correct mistakes > (which is of course vital for technical data anyway - technical data > with mistakes in is useless!). So unless wordprocessor-like > tools exist > to edit PDF files then I wouldn't think they're much good as an > intermediate format, because people need to be able to go in there and > easily correct mistakes made by the OCR software. You can edit a PDF but not quite in the same way as you would edit a word processed document. You can replace characters within a line but there seems to be no "wrap" to the next line and so on. It's OK (if somewhat painful) for the sort of OCR-error-correction that you have in mind. Obviously you cannot edit images (without extracting them, mangling in an image editor and re-inserting). I've scanned bucket loads of docs (small buckets compared to others, but enough to fill 10CDs or so - probably 100 docs). That was not too bad with an automated sheet-feeder and a decent scanner that would drop a file onto a share. A bit of post-processing (convert to G4, check for missing pages) and you are done. Even that probably took a day per doc on average. Throw in OCR and you would magnify that by maybe a factor of three. Throw in proof-redaing and you'd go mad. It's trivially easy to miss errors so you would really have to have each doc verified by multiple people. And then you need to measure their error rate, perhaps by injecting deliberate misatkes (did you see it, or have you had to go back to look) and verifying that they spot them. On top of that, if you go to all the trouble of scanning stuff and verifying it to a certain extent (and putting together a checksum in case something goes wrong), surely you need to have some kind of backup for when the disk dies? (I've spent the last 24 hours recovering a dead 40GB drive and the previous 24 hours - while waiting for the replacement to arrive - wondering just how dead it was and how much I'd not yet backed up ...). I keep everything I've put any real effort into on two CDs and I try to get it hosted on at least one site somewhere. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 27 17:15:57 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: drivers for HP scanjet 6300?????????? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040627181557.0086eca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I GIVE UP!!! Does anyone have drivers for the HP 6300 series scanners. It's something called Precision Scan. I searched the net for over an hour and all I found was links to other search engines with links to other search engines to links to OTHER search engines that all ultimately lead back to MORE people trying to find drivers for the same thing. All the search engines are lousy any more. I type in "HP ScanJet 6300 driver download" and all I get are link sto people trying to sell the scanners and othe search engines and not one place where I can actually download drivers. Joe From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 27 17:21:58 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: drivers for HP scanjet 6300?????????? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040627181557.0086eca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627181557.0086eca0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406271721.58948.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 27 June 2004 17:15, Joe R. wrote: > I GIVE UP!!! Does anyone have drivers for the HP 6300 series > scanners. It's something called Precision Scan. I searched the net > for over an hour and all I found was links to other search engines > with links to other search engines to links to OTHER search engines > that all ultimately lead back to MORE people trying to find drivers > for the same thing. > > All the search engines are lousy any more. I type in "HP ScanJet > 6300 driver download" and all I get are link sto people trying to > sell the scanners and othe search engines and not one place where I > can actually download drivers. 1) Go to hp.com 2) Click on "Support & Drivers" 3) Chose "Download Drivers and Software", type in "Scanjet 6300" 4) end up here: http://h20180.www2.hp.com/apps/Lookup?h_lang=en&h_cc=us&cc=us&h_page=hpcom&lang=en&h_client=S-A-R163-1&h_pagetype=software&h_query=Scanjet+6300&submit.x=0&submit.y=0 Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Sun Jun 27 18:23:08 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <005501c45c90$69129cd0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> References: <1088369152.22804.122.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040627192308.008f5570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:47 PM 6/27/04 +0100, you wrote: > >> It seems to be bloody horrible on modern versions of Linux, too :-( >> (well, at least on Redhat 9) Slow as hell, plus the rendering >> quality is >> pretty awful. > >I have a 2.8GHz Intel box running Debian at >work and that works quite nicely (firefox >and xpdf IIRC). I also have a 450MHz Intel >box running Windows and Acrobat 6 on that >runs like something that died quite a >while ago :-) I had the same problem and I did some research on the net and found that it's a known problem with version 6 of Acrobat. I erased it off my system and installed version 4 and it works MUCH better. So far I haven't had any problems running the older version. The other thing that I've found is to NOT open documents on the net with Acrobat. Right click on them and do a Save As. It will download in seconds instead of (literally!) hours. Then open and use the saved copy. Joe From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 27 18:46:06 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040627192308.008f5570@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <006d01c45ca0$eafedaf0$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > I had the same problem and I did some research on the net > and found that > it's a known problem with version 6 of Acrobat. I erased it > off my system > and installed version 4 and it works MUCH better. So far I > haven't had any > problems running the older version. The place I worked in previously upgraded from 3 to 4 (because of the support for a new PDF spec I think) and there did not seem to be much difference in speed. I forget why I went to Acrobat 5, but that seems to be not too much slower than 4 at starting (at least for the reader, I've never compared full products against each other). Acrobat 6 is just such a stunningly slow starter, it's amazing that noone at Adobe noticed. > The other thing that I've > found is to > NOT open documents on the net with Acrobat. Right click on > them and do a > Save As. It will download in seconds instead of (literally!) > hours. Then > open and use the saved copy. Yes. This has always been true I think. It is (apparently) possible to prepare PDFs in some way that avoids this (i.e. displays first page as it arrives and downloads the rest in the background) but since I almost always want to keep a copy around I mostly go with the right-click approach. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 27 19:25:00 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys In-Reply-To: Marvin Johnston "Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys, was Re: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs?" (Jun 27, 13:17) References: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40DF2B53.7CD94138@rain.org> Message-ID: <10406280125.ZM26408@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 27, 13:17, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > I just found out about a new type of battery charger called the > BatteryMinder that will (it is claimed) rejuvenate Lead/Acid batteries > that are dead due to sulphating. A friend of mine used one on a battery > that had been totally discharged for too long, and was able to recover > it. I expect this uses some sort of high-frequency (very short duration) high-current pulses to overcome the sulphating. The idea has been around for a while, and it does work. See, for example, http://www.flex.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm which has links to a lot of information. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Jun 27 19:35:42 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: Tom Owad "Re: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression)" (Jun 27, 13:59) References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <10406280135.ZM26456@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 27, 13:59, Tom Owad wrote: > What I'm leaning towards now is making two sets: one for archiving and > one for distribution. > > The archival images will be 600dpi greyscale TIFFs. They will not be > converted to pdf, but just stored as TIFFs. > > The images intended for download and distribution will be 200dpi > greyscale JPEGs. Using these, I expect a 128-page download to be about > 20 MB. While perhaps not suitable for ocr, these images are very > comfortable to read on-screen, and can later be replaced with improved > versions made from the original 600dpi TIFFs. > > I know a lot of you expressed concerns about JPEGs, but I haven't been > able to get anywhere near the compression using other methods, for > greyscale images. Am I overlooking any options? JPEGs are bad news because of the losses. Personally I find higher-resolution easier to read (and print, if I want to, which I often do) and normally greyscale isn't needed. The last thing I scanned was a 166-page DEC manual, which came out as 6.4MB of PDF or 6.3MB of G4 TIFFs in a single TIFF file. That's a lot better than your 20MB JPEG, and higher resolution, too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 27 21:53:18 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch References: Message-ID: <004501c45cbb$115aa750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> well, if it's a simple card, perhaps I can borrow it and reconstruct another one. Of course, I'd still need another 4070 :) Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: Re: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch > [4070 serial card] > > > I have this card. It is a while ago since I last looked at it, but iirc > > it didn't look too complex. If anyone wants to reconstruct this card, > > It's not that complex. There's the normal 40 pin UART and some TTL for > things like baud rate generation, interfacing to the 4070, etc. One > feature is a pair of '157 muxes which let you substitute a fixed cheacter > if you get a parity error or similar. I've never actually used that though. > > Half the PCB is covered with the jumper instructions etched into the > copper. Very useful! > > -tony > From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Jun 27 22:12:58 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) Message-ID: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> You poor folks, I'm definitely going to VCFe; I feel so sorry for those that will have to put up with me :) My vehicle/trailer arrangements are all made, and it turns out I'll have a bit more room than I was expecting. So... if anyone wants to arrange any trades in advance and is also going to VCFe, nows the time to let me know. I'm already getting all the stuff together that I'm taking so let me know asap if I may have something someone would want me to bring. Also, I'm getting into burlington late thursday and probably leaving right after VCF saturday. But is a group going out to dinner/bar/whatever friday night? If anyone wants, drop me a line. Regards, Jay West From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Jun 26 12:59:53 2004 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: DEC at MIT In-Reply-To: <200406250507.i5P570hc097758@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <200406250507.i5P570hc097758@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 0:07 -0500 6/25/04, Ethan Dicks wrote: >------------------------------ > >On Thu, Jun 24, 2004 at 03:08:27AM +0800, Wai-Sun Chia wrote: >> I know what's a Rainbow, but what's a Robin? >> It's a bit of a downer that the PDPs don't have cool code names like the >> VAXens. :-) > >The Rainbow was DEC's 8-bit competitor to the IBM PC. It runs DOS, but >is not 100% compatible - more available DOS memory than the real thing, >which screws with some programs that depend on a precise memory map. It >also has RX50 drives. At least it can format blank media. True more or less, but sells the Rainbow a bit short. It has both Z-80 and 8088 (arguably 16-bit?) processors, runs CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 as well as the DOS you described (and VENIX? Not sure that that is still resurrectable). The "Rainbow" was (according to at least some of their literature) intended to be a bridge between the 8-bit and the 16-bit software worlds. -- - Mark 210-522-6025, page 888-733-0967 From dr.ido at bigpond.net.au Mon Jun 28 07:40:33 2004 From: dr.ido at bigpond.net.au (Dr. Ido) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.20040628042347.0122da14@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20040628234033.0125519c@pop-server> At 09:45 PM 6/27/04 +0100, you wrote: >It's 8V AC (so there's no pinout information as such) from a 3VA >transformer of some 11 ohms internal resistance (and yes, that is >important according to the technical reference manual which I happen to >have). So like some HP calcs the adapter only charges the battery, it won't run the machine with a dead/missing battery. As I expected the battery pack is totally dead. I doubt I'll bother replacing the battery. I've never seen these cells at any of the usual electronics suppliers around here. I don't doubt that one of the specialist battery companies has them, but their prices are too rich for me. >> Failing that, would it be safe to remove the battery and connect a 6VDC >> power supply to the battery terminals? > >Should be OK, but of course you'll lose the memory contents (including >the A: ramdisk) and configuration data when you turn the PSU off. I had it running for a while earlier today. Everything seems to be working as it should. Nothing out of the ordinary beyond the QWERTZ keyboard and PAM being in German. The only application installed in MS-Word, which is English. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 09:14:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: Robin boot disks was: DEC at MIT References: <200406230213.WAA7745593@shell.TheWorld.com> <40D9D52B.7070905@hp.com> <200406241405.35610.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200406242005.03741.kenziem@sympatico.ca> <6.1.2.0.2.20040625202639.02789948@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <16608.10159.660078.454749@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rick" == Rick Murphy writes: Rick> At 08:05 PM 6/24/2004, Mike Kenzie wrote: >> Does anyone have boot disk images for the VT180? Rick> I have an original DEC disk - VT180 CP/M 2.2. No idea if it's Rick> still usable, but it's unlikely that I overwrote/reformatted Rick> it. Rick> The floppy isn't readable on a peecee floppy drive. If you're Rick> interested, I can drop it into the mail to you. Assuming Robins use the DEC standard 5.25 inch floppy formatting (i.e., the same as for the RX50) you CAN read it on a PC with a bit of work. I did that in my program "rstsflx" which is available on some ftp servers (or I can provide the relevant code fragment if anyone is interested). Both Linux and DOS can do this. I don't know about WinNT and its descendants, though -- probably not. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 09:19:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <20040626152716.7657@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16608.10453.704053.773634@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Owad writes: Tom> I have a lot of manuals I want to scan and am trying to decide Tom> upon the best format. I'd like some opinions on the following Tom> scans of a 128-page Franklin AceWriter manual. Tom> On the low end is a pdf of bitmap images. It's hideous, but Tom> only 3.5 MB. Tom> The high end is a 40 MB pdf of jpeg images. This one's easy on Tom> the eyes, but is an awfully large download and I'm wondering if Tom> it might not print as nicely as the bitmap. Tom> In the middle is a pdf of compressed jpegs at 15 MB. This looks Tom> good to my eyes, I just wonder about using compressed jpegs for Tom> archiving... JPEG is NOT designed to handle bitonal (black and white) source material. It's designed for continuous tone images such as photos. That's where the name comes from and that's what its algorithms are designed for. If you apply it to a bitonal image, several things will happen. 1. The files end up very large. 2. The images end up blurred and full of compression artifacts. The correct way to compress bitonal images is with a compression algorithm designed for that job. TIFF, GIF, and PNG are examples. Not only will you get better quality, but you'll get smaller files. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 09:33:27 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <16608.11319.708762.136197@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tom" == Tom Owad writes: Tom> On Saturday, June 26, 2004, Al Kossow, wrote: >> I scan at 400dpi 1bpp and save the pages using group4 compressed >> TIFFs which is the maximum res the IS520 scans at. Tom> I was doing 150dpi greyscale jpegs. I've changed to 400dpi 1bpp Tom> tiffs, and now I'm ending up with each page about 700K... (scan Tom> as greyscale tiff (unknown compression), convert to 1-bit with Tom> lzw compression, save as pdf in Photoshop). Tom> Using tiffcp to change the compression from lzw to g4 more than Tom> doubles the size to 1.6 MB. That's for a single page. Tom> Surely this is too large? Quite possibly the scan is "dirty". Ideally you'd want the letters to be black and the rest of the page white. More typically, the scan process will put a scattering of black pixels elsewhere on the page, for example due to "bleed through" from the text on the reverse side. If the pages are pretty consistent in quality and color, you can tweak the scan settings to help this, or you can achieve the same result by post-processing in Photoshop or a similar tool. If it has "automation" features (as Photoshop does) you can process lots of pages quickly. The trick is to look for a threshold setting for the black vs. white threshold that results in minimal pixels on the page, but not so high that the letters lose their shape. This is a compromise -- the edge of a printed letter is not really sharp in a scan, so as you raise the threshold some of the outer pixels change from black to white -- your letter gets "thinner". If you can't get both a clean page and an acceptable letter shape, then the source material isn't good enough to support bitonal scanning. If so, you'll need a grayscale scan and you'll have to put up with the larger file sizes that result. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 09:35:12 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> <40DDF32A.1080405@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <16608.11424.531195.708636@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Paul" == Paul Williams writes: Paul> Tom Owad wrote: >> I was doing 150dpi greyscale jpegs. I've changed to 400dpi 1bpp >> tiffs, and now I'm ending up with each page about 700K... (scan >> as greyscale tiff (unknown compression), convert to 1-bit with lzw >> compression, save as pdf in Photoshop). Paul> You need to scan at 1bpp, not grayscale. When you are Paul> converting from grayscale to 1bpp, you are probably getting Paul> dithering (a pseudo-random scattering of black and white Paul> pixels) in order to approximate the original grays at the edges Paul> of characters. This dithering will ruin the achievable Paul> compression in G4, which is a fax algorithm optimised for runs Paul> of white and black pixels. That certainly would do it, and it will also wreck the appearance of the resulting files. For black and white material, the conversion method you need is "Threshold" -- you do NOT want "dither". paul From rcini at optonline.net Mon Jun 28 09:36:35 2004 From: rcini at optonline.net (rcini@optonline.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:53 2005 Subject: Hexbus interfacing Message-ID: <36241d35d6af.35d6af36241d@optonline.net> Hello, all: I'm researching ways to interface my TI74 to a host PC. TI made a PC interface cable which I've been able to find from a third-party vendor now that IT is out of the CC40/TI74 business. He wants $94 for it. Way too much for my cheap blood. Sensing a homebrew project in the offing, I've been doing some research. I've been able to find the software for the PC but I've found no info on the cable. The cable probably has a Hexbus chip in it, which knowing my luck is no longer available. The Hexbus specifications ("Intelligent Peripheral Bus Controller" dated 9/83) don't reveal a chip number but does indicate the fab -- LSI Logic. Does anyone have any info on the Hexbus silicon? I've spent some time with the FTP archive on Western Horizon Tech's site but I'm coming up empty. Thanks. Rich From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jun 28 09:50:57 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes Message-ID: Hi all, My HP 1651B logic analyzer arrived this morning, sans probes. The seller says he "thought they were in the pouch on top, where the bootdisk is" and that he "didn't have any left in stock anyway". Rather typically, all that was in there was a single 40-pin woven cable (HP part number 01650-61607) and the bootdisk. Murphy's Law at work. So... Does anyone have spares of any of the following Hewlett-Packard or Agilent parts in their collection that they'd be willing to part with? 01650-61607 Woven cable, IDC40 to IDC40 (I need 1x of these) 01650-61608 Probe, IDC40 to flying-lead (I need 2x of these) NOTE: the probe module should also include grabber probes. There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on Ebay at the moment, well, at least there's nothing that's available to the UK. Plenty of probe kits available USA-only though... Thanks. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Memory is a thing we forget with. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 09:52:09 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> <1088363974.22804.85.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16608.12441.691797.302938@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> Probably not. JPEG is lossy after all, so I expect it'll Jules> always do better than a non-lossy format. Definitely not true. Line art is better with PNG or GIF -- JPEG will produce files that are BOTH bigger and crummy. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 09:56:45 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <200406272147.RAA04560@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <16608.12717.667269.350193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >>> Well, _I_ can't. Or at least if I can I have no idea how. >>> GhostScript (the only open-source PDF reader I know of) doesn't >>> seem to have a plain-text output option. >> ps2ascii der> Woo. Cool. I wouldn't've tried it directly, because "ps" der> doesn't say "PDF" to me. PDF is a close relative of PostScript -- which is why ghostview can read PDF files. It works well -- unlike xpdf which was never any good in my experience, and Adobe's Linux version of acroread which doesn't even start on my (Fedora 1) system. By the way, on the question "what format for mixed OCR-text and images -- simple: PDF of course. paul From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 28 10:00:29 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCF/E In-Reply-To: <16608.12717.667269.350193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Hi all, Since I will be in the U.S. during VCF/E, I might as well try to actually make it there. Is anyone driving there from the Silicon Valley area? Cheers, Fred From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Jun 28 10:29:41 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi all, > My HP 1651B logic analyzer arrived this morning, sans probes. The seller > says he "thought they were in the pouch on top, where the bootdisk is" and > that he "didn't have any left in stock anyway". > Rather typically, all that was in there was a single 40-pin woven cable (HP > part number 01650-61607) and the bootdisk. Murphy's Law at work. > So... Does anyone have spares of any of the following Hewlett-Packard or > Agilent parts in their collection that they'd be willing to part with? > 01650-61607 Woven cable, IDC40 to IDC40 (I need 1x of these) > 01650-61608 Probe, IDC40 to flying-lead (I need 2x of these) > NOTE: the probe module should also include grabber probes. > > There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on Ebay at the > moment, well, at least there's nothing that's available to the UK. Plenty of > probe kits available USA-only though... > > Thanks. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, > philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, > http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI > ... Memory is a thing we forget with. > Dont have any spare probes but I have some PCBs I made a long time ago that are designed to be passive divider probes for the inputs to the 165X logic analyser (like the standard probe). These use surface mount components and have 2 40 pin header locations, 1 for the LA cable and the other for the probes. As many as ypu want, free for shipping costs.... Peter Wallace From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Jun 28 10:43:44 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 In-Reply-To: <008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> References: <16602.57691.339894.158843@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: At 10:25 AM -0400 6/24/04, Ashley Carder wrote: >There are others, such as VT50PY. All of these should work fine on >a VT52, but they will only use the first 12 lines on the screen. Actually, if you respond to the VT50PY prompt: Interval? 5/24 It will use 24 lines (or whatever number you specify) and update at 5 second intervals (again, or whatever interval you specify). Also note that the 15 switch needs to be raised (or "d sr 100000" in SIMH) in order for the performance collection code to dynamically keep track of interesting things. [You did SYSGEN in the monitor collection code?] John From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Jun 28 10:58:15 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Grey VMS wall available for pickup Message-ID: One of the labs here is getting rid of the VMS grey wall (V5, I believe). It is available free for pickup. Contact me if you are interested. Thanks, John -- John A. Dundas III Director, Information Technology Services Infrastructure, Caltech Mail Code: 014-81, Pasadena, CA 91125-8100 Phone: 626.395.3392 FAX: 626.449.6973 From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 28 11:26:05 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 References: <16602.57691.339894.158843@gargle.gargle.HOWL><008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <006501c45d2c$9d14b260$99100f14@mcothran1> From: "John A. Dundas III" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 11:43 AM Subject: Re: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 > At 10:25 AM -0400 6/24/04, Ashley Carder wrote: > >There are others, such as VT50PY. All of these should work fine on > >a VT52, but they will only use the first 12 lines on the screen. > > Actually, if you respond to the VT50PY prompt: > > Interval? 5/24 > > It will use 24 lines (or whatever number you specify) and update at 5 > second intervals (again, or whatever interval you specify). > Thanks for the info. I'll have to try this. I've never used the /lines parameter on VT50PY. > Also note that the 15 switch needs to be raised (or "d sr 100000" in > SIMH) in order for the performance collection code to dynamically > keep track of interesting things. [You did SYSGEN in the monitor > collection code?] I don't remember this question during SYSGEN. What does this do and how can I look at the "interesting things" that are collected? > > John > It sounds like you're pretty "into" RSTS. What kinds of system(s) do you have and what versions of RSTS are you using? I just copied a SYSGEN of a RSTS V7 system from my simh system to a *REAL* RL02 on my 11/34 (using that handy program, VTServer), along with lots of custom mods to $LOGIN, $LOGOUT, and other things that were unique to our late 1970s implementation. I've used $REACT to create our original PPNs for all of our old crew and the retired professor who ran the computer center. I've booted the 11/34 from the pack and everything seems to work fine. I've set up all our custom CCLs and LOGICALs, and I need to create another RL02 pack for all our additional stuff like the GAME: directory, which I have loaded with all those old BASIC games, as well as the BASIC- PLUS version of ADVENTure, and some custom stuff like VT50 versions of games like Star Trek, which one of my friends put together back around 1976. I'm working on getting an 11/40, so my reincarnation of the system will be more close to the original, complete with blinking lights and toggle switches. Our professor modified $LOGIN so that you could not log in to a privileged account on any KB other that KB0: (the system console) unless one of the switches was "on". I have this modification made to our copy of $LOGIN and have tested it in simh. I've also implemented a program, $WAITS, which our professor wrote. It runs as a detached job and wakes up ever 10 or 15 minutes and collects statistics on system usage, and also logs off "idle" terminals. I will stop rambling now. Ashley From bob at jfcl.com Mon Jun 28 11:24:21 2004 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Upgrading a KDF-11B ROMs for MSCP Bootstrap (disassembling a bootstrap ROM?) Message-ID: <002701c45d2c$61d48b80$bb02010a@LIFEBOOK> Hi, I have a KDF-11B (that's the quad sized PDP-11/23+ CPU with onboard serial ports and bootstrap/terminator) that's too old to know how to boot from MSCP (e.g. RQDX/RD5x) drives. I know later versions of this board could do that and I was planning to just upgrade the EPROMs on my board, but all the later EPROM images are 8K bytes - my board has only 2K (2716) 24 pin EPROMS. There's no way (at least no simple way) to install 8K 28pin EPROMs. Actually, the EPROM sockets on my board are so close together that I don't think I could get 28 pin devices to fit even if I did "flying leads" for the extra 4 pins. Did the later KDF-11B boards really have 28 pin sockets? Is this upgrade hopeless? Does anybody have a system for disassembling and then re-assembling these EPROMs? If I throw out all the useless bootstraps (e.g. the RK, MRV11 ROM or DECnet boots) there ought to be room even in 2K for a DU boot. Bob Armstrong From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jun 28 11:24:45 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3ce034c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > Dont have any spare probes but I have some PCBs I made a long time ago that > are designed to be passive divider probes for the inputs to the 165X logic > analyser (like the standard probe). These use surface mount components and > have 2 40 pin header locations, 1 for the LA cable and the other for the > probes. As many as ypu want, free for shipping costs.... They might be useful later, but the one thing I really want at this moment in time is one of the woven cables. It's bad enough that it's had the individual wires woven together, but what makes it worse is the fact that there's about 190 Ohms of resistance from end-to-end in the signal wires (D0-D15 and CLK). The other wires seem to be of a much lower resistance (less than an ohm). Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Hailing frequencies open Mr. Worf. - Hi, this is Steve Wright on 1 FM. From pzachary at sasquatch.com Sun Jun 27 10:13:05 2004 From: pzachary at sasquatch.com (pzachary@sasquatch.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: m9312 roms Message-ID: <59590.216.218.236.136.1088349185.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> I have several roms and a reader, what format would be the most portable? Pavl_ From us032560 at mindspring.com Sun Jun 27 18:59:01 2004 From: us032560 at mindspring.com (Robert Garner) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found In-Reply-To: <200406270915.16058.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Fred, As Lyle noted, I own both a 12 and a 15, and would like to be considered for your 12 and 15 tapes. (I currently only have a couple 15 tapes and no 12 tapes.) I have contributed material to Al on a regular basis for scanning or read-in for his extensive bitsavers.org site. (David Gesswein has also read in 15 tapes for the site.) Thanks, - Robert robert.garner@mindspring.com On Sunday, June 27, 2004, at 09:15 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > From: Lyle Bickley > Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:14:02 AM US/Pacific > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > , "Fred N. van Kempen" > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > , Al Kossow > Subject: Re: PDP-9, -12, -15 paper tapes found > > > Robert Garner has both a PDP-12 and PDP-15 and he's local (San Jose > area). I > suspect he'd want them for sure. > > Lyle > > On Sunday 27 June 2004 08:57, Fred N. van Kempen wrote: >> Hi All, >> >>> You might want to bring them to the US next week and loan >>> them to Al Kossow so he can archive them. >> >> OK, will do. This will actually NOT make KLM scream at me, for >> once :) Since I do not "do" anything with these systems, are >> there any PDP-9, -12 and/or -15 collectors who would want to >> take these, after Al copies them? >> >> Cheers, >> >> Fred > > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > From waisun.chia at hp.com Mon Jun 28 06:17:22 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <40DFFE42.5030803@hp.com> I think what he wants is the ability to mount a floppy disk image on DOS. Presumably he's a Unix person, the analogy in Linux/Unix is below (assuming your DOS floppy image is called fdimage): mount /tmp/fdimage /mnt -t msdos -o loop=/dev/loop3,blocksize=1024 /wai-sun From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 11:33:37 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <200406281633.JAA22556@clulw009.amd.com> Hi One other thought, check that the head positioning system isn't sticking. I also doubt that both drives have had some electronic failure. Dwight From melamy at earthlink.net Mon Jun 28 11:37:54 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <31192148.1088440675277.JavaMail.root@scooter.psp.pas.earthlink.net> a thought just hit me as to a typical failure that I have seen in floppy drive controllers. Look at the output drivers on the controller and see what the signals look like. These chips are typically open collector buffers of some kind (7438, 7406, 7407, and peripheral chips 7549x series). I have seen these chips have output problems and that could certainly create problems. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: "Dwight K. Elvey" Sent: Jun 28, 2004 12:33 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Hi One other thought, check that the head positioning system isn't sticking. I also doubt that both drives have had some electronic failure. Dwight From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 11:43:24 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <16608.11319.708762.136197@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200406261613.i5QGDCaG025864@spies.com> <20040626213003.4726@mail.earthlink.net> <16608.11319.708762.136197@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1088441004.23943.36.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 14:33, Paul Koning wrote: > The trick is to look for a threshold setting for the black vs. white > threshold that results in minimal pixels on the page, but not so high > that the letters lose their shape. This is a compromise -- the edge > of a printed letter is not really sharp in a scan, so as you raise the > threshold some of the outer pixels change from black to white -- your > letter gets "thinner". If you can't get both a clean page and an > acceptable letter shape, then the source material isn't good enough to > support bitonal scanning. If so, you'll need a grayscale scan and > you'll have to put up with the larger file sizes that result. Personally I'd make sure I had copies of the *original* non-processed scans archived, though. It's really easy to lose quality when messing around with threshold settings for 1bpp scans or tweaking brightness/contrast for greyscale scans. Typically diagrams tend to suffer more than text, and it's very hard to "proof read" those after processing to make sure they're spot-on - it's all to easy to miss something. Remember that on old documents the original page quality and contrast can vary quite a bit, plus some pages may have aged differently to others - so it's not like you can pick a setting that works for one page and apply it to all. Personally I'd only want to be doing the scanning once as it's such a time-consuming job (and OCRing is even worse!). Plus (as I'm sure is the case with others on the list) I have some original documents where the number of surviving copies worldwide is probably in single figures. I wouldn't want a scan to exist where information is missing, and the original source document is impossible to track down. For more common documents it's less of an issue - but still a pain to re-scan anything (and it means there's a fixed and a broken version then floating around out there too!) I just do everything as greyscale, save and archive the scans with no processing whatsoever, and only tweak colour/brightness/contrast/threshold/whatever settings just prior to feeding into OCR software. Storage really isn't an issue these days (I keep data on both tape and hard disk) cheers, Jules From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 28 11:53:09 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS References: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40DFFE42.5030803@hp.com> Message-ID: <00b601c45d30$64a0ce10$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wai-Sun Chia" To: Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:17 AM Subject: Re: Mount disk images for MS-DOS > I think what he wants is the ability to mount a floppy disk image on > DOS. Presumably he's a Unix person, the analogy in Linux/Unix is below > (assuming your DOS floppy image is called fdimage): > > mount /tmp/fdimage /mnt -t msdos -o loop=/dev/loop3,blocksize=1024 > > > /wai-sun > Under Mac OS and Disk Copy 6.3.3 you can image any number of disks that can then be double clicked and show up on the desktop just like a real disk would when inserted into the drive. This allows programs with multiple disks to be imaged and then installed directly from the images instead of having to be converted back to a real disk and inserted one at a time into the computer when it needed the next disk. If there a program in dos (assuming you had enough memory to work with) that did the same type of thing you could install multi disk games and apps without messing with real disks or hacking the files to the HD or a CD. The process would allow you to put your originals in a vault and never use them or a real floppy disk again. I have not seen anything like this (there are programs that do virtual CD's in windows but copy protection defeats most of them). At least this is what I assume the original poster was thinking (this type of thing is implemented in most emulators for 8/16 bit machines) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 11:54:06 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <16608.12717.667269.350193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <200406272147.RAA04560@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <16608.12717.667269.350193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1088441646.23943.47.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 14:56, Paul Koning wrote: > By the way, on the question "what format for mixed OCR-text and images > -- simple: PDF of course. Except, as said, not readable on a platform that doesn't have a PDF viewer (or has a broken/slow/old one). IIRC, older versions of the Acrobat viewer wouldn't even let you selectively copy and paste ASCII text - I don't even know if the current versions do that. Plus I don't know if I can run a PDF file through my favourite search tool - certainly the few I've just looked at appear to be unreadable garbage. If this wasn't a classic computer list *and* we were all expected to have PCs running MS software then I'd agree that PDF might be a valid choice. I'm just not so sure it's that simple in this case... cheers Jules From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 12:00:10 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Core volatility Message-ID: <200406281700.KAA22568@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Wai-Sun Chia" > >I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to have a little >problem. > >Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing content (core is > supposed to be non-volatile). I've been debugging custom bootloaders >for the past week and it has since gone past annoying. It's like 3 >locations out of 50 that are always reverting back to 000000 after a reboot. > >Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores that are not >functioning properly? Or is it the cores itself? > > >-- >/wai-sun > Hi It is more likely that a spurious write pulse is happening when you power off. On my computer, you need to stop the processor first before turning it off. If I don't do this, a few bits get corrupted. Dwight From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Jun 28 11:37:31 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: RK05 alignment cartridge Message-ID: <040628123732.c25d@splab.cas.neu.edu> I think I have one or two, but I can't get to them until July 12. Check with me directly then if you haven't gotten one by then. Joe Heck Trash9@splab.cas.neu.edu From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Mon Jun 28 11:44:10 2004 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS Message-ID: <040628124410.c25d@splab.cas.neu.edu> I think something similar would be Ghost Explorer. That lets you take a drive that has been "backed up" with Ghost (sorry, no floppy drives that I know of) and then treat the packed image file as a folder (under Windoze). I think you can also "zip" the files on the drive and then use an unzip program to browse. But it sure would be nice to take a file made by a true floppy image copy program (like floppy copy) and browse it, not just restore it to another floppy. Joe Heck From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 28 12:16:59 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners Message-ID: <00cf01c45d33$b89711c0$0500fea9@game> How often do you people use a head cleaner to keep your floppy drives running (or what do you use to clean them when they don't read disks correctly)? TZ From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 28 12:25:01 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: DSSI terminators? In-Reply-To: <00a501c45a33$78adbb20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: Who was recently looking for 4 or so terminators for his VAX 4000 cluster? I can probably bring some to the US. If you're him, pse contact me off-list. --f From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 12:37:27 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <200406272147.RAA04560@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <16608.12717.667269.350193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1088441646.23943.47.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <16608.22359.418455.376638@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson writes: Jules> On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 14:56, Paul Koning wrote: >> By the way, on the question "what format for mixed OCR-text and >> images -- simple: PDF of course. Jules> Except, as said, not readable on a platform that doesn't have Jules> a PDF viewer (or has a broken/slow/old one). IIRC, older Jules> versions of the Acrobat viewer wouldn't even let you Jules> selectively copy and paste ASCII text - I don't even know if Jules> the current versions do that. Plus I don't know if I can run a Jules> PDF file through my favourite search tool - certainly the few Jules> I've just looked at appear to be unreadable garbage. Jules> If this wasn't a classic computer list *and* we were all Jules> expected to have PCs running MS software then I'd agree that Jules> PDF might be a valid choice. I'm just not so sure it's that Jules> simple in this case... Since ghostview looks like a perfectly adequate PDF reader and is open source, what's the issue? paul From dundas at caltech.edu Mon Jun 28 12:39:40 2004 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Wanted: ASR-33, LA36, and VT50 In-Reply-To: <006501c45d2c$9d14b260$99100f14@mcothran1> References: <16602.57691.339894.158843 @gargle.gargle.HOWL><008d01c459f7$1ebfffb0$99100f14@mcothran1> <006501c45d2c$9d14b260$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: Ashley, At 12:26 PM -0400 6/28/04, Ashley Carder wrote: > > Also note that the 15 switch needs to be raised (or "d sr 100000" in >> SIMH) in order for the performance collection code to dynamically >> keep track of interesting things. [You did SYSGEN in the monitor >> collection code?] > >I don't remember this question during SYSGEN. What does this do >and how can I look at the "interesting things" that are collected? There is a document that explains all of this. Go to and grab the DECUS.DOC file. The relevant part is "RSTS/E Statistics Collection," Author: Martin Minow, Date: November 18, 1976. In this document he describes that to enable these, one must answer the SYSGEN question "long or short question format" with "L/Q" or "S/Q". Afterward, switch register bits 0 and 15 control various aspects of data collection. I believe this information is valid for RSTS versions 6 (starting in c?) through 9, though I can't confirm it. >It sounds like you're pretty "into" RSTS. What kinds of system(s) do >you have and what versions of RSTS are you using? I just copied a I'll accept that :-) I have one each of /73, /84, and /70. I'm still working on bringing the /70 back to life. RSTS versions are available for hobbyist use through 9.6, I believe. I am trying to put together a comprehensive archive of RSTS distributions and make this available to the community. >SYSGEN of a RSTS V7 system from my simh system to a *REAL* >RL02 on my 11/34 (using that handy program, VTServer), along with >lots of custom mods to $LOGIN, $LOGOUT, and other things that >were unique to our late 1970s implementation. I've used $REACT >to create our original PPNs for all of our old crew and the retired >professor who ran the computer center. I've booted the 11/34 >from the pack and everything seems to work fine. I've set up all our >custom CCLs and LOGICALs, and I need to create another RL02 >pack for all our additional stuff like the GAME: directory, which I >have loaded with all those old BASIC games, as well as the BASIC- >PLUS version of ADVENTure, and some custom stuff like VT50 >versions of games like Star Trek, which one of my friends put together >back around 1976. Very nice. >I'm working on getting an 11/40, so my reincarnation of the system >will be more close to the original, complete with blinking lights and >toggle switches. Our professor modified $LOGIN so that you >could not log in to a privileged account on any KB other that KB0: >(the system console) unless one of the switches was "on". I have >this modification made to our copy of $LOGIN and have tested it >in simh. I've also implemented a program, $WAITS, which our >professor wrote. It runs as a detached job and wakes up ever >10 or 15 minutes and collects statistics on system usage, and also >logs off "idle" terminals. I believe *many* sites had similar modifications. Also see DYNPRI from the same URL given above. We must be roughly contemporary. My first experience with RSTS was in '75 using the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI) machine while a student at Lewis & Clark University. I too am trying to recreate an environment, but not that particular one. I'm trying to put together a V7.2 system on the /70. It's been interesting (!) trying to assemble all the pieces. If you need any help, feel free to ask. Good luck, John From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 28 12:51:46 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS In-Reply-To: <040628124410.c25d@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040628134552.00af6908@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that trash3@splab.cas.neu.edu may have mentioned these words: [snip] >But it sure would be nice to take a file made by a true floppy image copy >program (like floppy copy) and browse it, not just restore it to another >floppy. If you're running your "DOS" under DOSEMU in Linux, you can always just dd the floppy to a file & then you can 'loopback mount' that image into a directory.[1] AFAIK, DOSEMU can specify directories as drives (but don't quote me on that - I've only used it once, and that was *very* briefly.) [2] HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger [1] To loopback mount a file into the filesystem, you need to either have that kernel function a) compiled into the kernel, or b) compiled into a module, and load that module using the module-functions (lsmod/insmod/rmmod). [2] Like... 10 minutes, tops. -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan sysadmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy... zmerch@30below.com | ...in oxymoron!" From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 28 12:45:27 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <16608.22359.418455.376638@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <001801c45c7e$9056d160$5b01a8c0@flexpc> <200406272044.QAA02777@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <1088372144.10878.15.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <200406272147.RAA04560@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <16608.12717.667269.350193@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1088441646.23943.47.camel@weka.localdomain> <16608.22359.418455.376638@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200406281757.NAA17745@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Since ghostview looks like a perfectly adequate PDF reader and is > open source, what's the issue? Personally? Because it has all of the disadvantages of PostScript (not easily usable with plain-text tools, mostly) and more (usually the whole thing is comparessed so it's not at all usable with plain-text tools). Because (when the PDF is just a bunch of images, as with most scanned manuals) it's often relatively difficult to extract individual pages' images to do anything useful with them. Because it's annoying to have to print it out in order to get something readable without strain (at typical font sizes, characters are only ten or so pixels high, and reading text at that size when the font has not been bitmap-tuned for it, is a strain). Now that I've been pointed at ps2ascii (which contrary to its name does work on PDFs), some of the disadvantages of PDFs are alleviated - for PDFs that contain text as opposed to image-per-page scans.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 28 12:57:34 2004 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040628134552.00af6908@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Jun 28, 2004 01:51:46 PM Message-ID: <200406281757.i5SHvYN1021580@onyx.spiritone.com> > directory.[1] AFAIK, DOSEMU can specify directories as drives (but don't > quote me on that - I've only used it once, and that was *very* briefly.) [2] Since a 10+ year old version was capable of doing this, I rather assume more modern ones can as well. Virtual PC has this capability as well (at least on the Mac). Zane From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 13:08:20 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Floppy drive oddity? (TEC FB-503) Message-ID: <200406281808.LAA22592@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dwight K. Elvey" > >Hi > One other thought, check that the head positioning >system isn't sticking. > I also doubt that both drives have had some electronic >failure. >Dwight > > > Hi I also forgot to mention, I have one of those floppy drive exercisers. If you live in the San Jose/Santa Cruz Calif. area, we can get together and check out your drives. Dwight From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jun 28 13:02:11 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:01:09 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Still no luck. I've now tried with and without the 'x' present in the > passwd file, and with and without the encrypted password string in the > shadow file. Mount the "locked" disk from a wotking IRIX of the same major version, do a chroot(1M) to it and type "passwd root"... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 28 13:10:10 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS In-Reply-To: <00b601c45d30$64a0ce10$0500fea9@game> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40DFFE42.5030803@hp.com> <00b601c45d30$64a0ce10$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <20040628110458.Q87566@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > Under Mac OS and Disk Copy 6.3.3 you can image any number of disks that can > then be double clicked and show up on the desktop just like a real disk > . . . > computer when it needed the next disk. If there a program in dos (assuming The appendix of PC-DOS 2.00 included source code for VDISK.SYS, that could easily be modified for that. (starting with 2.10, that was replaced with runnable form on the disk, and the manuals received an appendectomy, with the appendix being sold separately as "PC-DOS Technical Reference Manual") I don't think that ANYBODY other than the originator of the thread knows what he is trying to do. More detail would be handy in sucvh a request. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From dwight.elvey at amd.com Mon Jun 28 13:18:40 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys, was Re: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? Message-ID: <200406281818.LAA22599@clulw009.amd.com> Hi Marvin Most gel cells are damaged from overcharging and not sulfating( no more water inside ). Most cases of sulfating can be recovered with a slow, low current charge. You need to have just enough current to overcome the normal leakage but not enough to generate excess gas. I've not seen, personally, enough difference between these types of battery rejuvenators and just using a trickle current to justify there purchase. About 5 years ago, we took two batteries that did not recover after a trickle charge. Neither of the two recovered after using a device, similar to the one described with high frequency pulses. All the other batteries recovered. These were auto sized and we used a current of 200ma. Dwight >From: "Marvin Johnston" > > >I just found out about a new type of battery charger called the >BatteryMinder that will (it is claimed) rejuvenate Lead/Acid batteries >that are dead due to sulphating. A friend of mine used one on a battery >that had been totally discharged for too long, and was able to recover >it. He sent me a 12v one and I am looking around for some batteries to >try it out ... like a couple of dozen Sharp PC-5000 lead/acid batteries >:). If this works on *old* lead acid batteries, I will be one happy >camper :)! > >If anyone is curious, their web site is at: >http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder.htm > >"Joe R." wrote: > >> >> The batteries in the PP and PP+ are a pain. They're lead acid and they >> are individual cylinders. So if you let them run down for very long, it >> will ruin them and they're not an easy style to find. IIRC they're X size >> which is slightly larger than standard D size. > From owad at applefritter.com Mon Jun 28 13:20:43 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) In-Reply-To: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> References: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> Message-ID: <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> On Sunday, June 27, 2004, Jay West, wrote: >My vehicle/trailer arrangements are all made, and it turns out I'll have a >bit more room than I was expecting. So... if anyone wants to arrange any >trades in advance and is also going to VCFe, nows the time to let me know. >I'm already getting all the stuff together that I'm taking so let me know >asap if I may have something someone would want me to bring. Here's some stuff I'll have for trade/sale. If interested, let me know before the show, as otherwise, none of this will be brought along: IBM System/23 Datamaster. Two desktop units and one tower unit. All three power up and are able to read a directory from disk, not tested further. Convergent Technologies tower system, with cute little matching terminal. Two boxes full of tapes (system software, emacs, other stuff) and a box full of manuals. Runs AT&T Unix System V, and some of the manuals are AT&T. All completely untested. I do have the (alleged) root password. AT&T Unix PC (or PC 7300, I forget which). Complete, untested. Motorola PowerStack with a really nice set of manuals and a variety of operating systems and peripherals. Email for more details. Rockwell AIM 65. Mounted on a sheet of plywood. Complete, untested. Seiko Datagraph UC-2001 PDA wristwatch. New in Box ProAudio Spectrum 16, 16-bit sound system for Mac LC, Classic. New in box. Lots of ADB keyboards and mice. I'm interested in unusual Apple-related stuff, and other. To make a random list: ? Any Apple and Macintosh clones (predominantly pre-PPC) ? Vertegri iMediaEngine ? Magic Sac (or similar) ? Any Apple prototypes ? Obscure Apple equipment ? NeXT Cube ? Corvus Concept 68000 ? 802.11b bridge (ie. to wireless points to bridge an ethernet network) ? Apple IIgs 4/8MB memory card ? Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card ? Apple II LANceGS card ? Apple II CF interface card ? Apple IIc LCD display ? 8MB RAM card for IIgs ? ZipGS ? PC Transporter ? Cauzin Softstrip Reader ? Apple II slot extension board ? AT&T UNIX PC Ethernet Board ? PERQ ? Mac-compatible external SCSI CD-R drive Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Jun 28 13:22:36 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) In-Reply-To: <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 28, 04 02:20:43 pm Message-ID: <200406281822.OAA05947@wordstock.com> And thusly Tom Owad spake: > > · Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card What does this do for the IIgs? Cheers, Bryan Pope From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 28 13:35:36 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) Message-ID: >> Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card > >What does this do for the IIgs? Gives it ESP so you can see tomorrow's lottery numbers (or was that the 'Third Eye' card?) -chris From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Jun 28 10:46:49 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: bigass DG Aviion Message-ID: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> Hi All, Today at the preview for the UA auction tomorrow, I saw one bigass DG Aviion. I believe it is a 9500+. I pulled the cpu board from the back of the VME bus and it showed 4 (four) 88110RC50F motorolla processors, which I believe are 50Mhz 88110's. It also had about 523MB of memory. but no disks. Usually these rack-size monsters go for next to nothing > $25.00, sometines as low as $2.50 Any takers ??. For a small consideration I can buy and hold as obviously you don't want to ship it. Cheers Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 13:39:13 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: MS BASIC for a Panasonic HHC RL-H1400 In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Re: MS BASIC for a Panasonic HHC RL-H1400" (Mar 4, 16:18) References: <200403040443.UAA14338@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040304105045.00ae2fc8@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040304161115.04859678@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10406281939.ZM27164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Hi, Roger. Prmopted by Bob's message to the list about PDP-11/23+ bootstraps, and some private email I had with him earlier: On Mar 4, 16:18, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: > > >Fancy parting with a few? They're 24-pin 8Kx8, which makes them > >particularly useful for some DEC boot ROMs (which is the only place > >I've seen them before). They fit *my* programmer :-) > > How many you need? It'll take me a few days to find 'em & pack 'em... This was in response to some messages on ClassicCmp about Motorola MCM 68764 EPROMs for a Panasonic HHC. Did you ever find any? I'd be happy to pay for carriage and a little something besides. I'd only need a few (4, maybe, for DEC bootstraps). Do you still want some Euro coins for your collection? I never did anything about that, did I... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From owad at applefritter.com Mon Jun 28 13:40:37 2004 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) In-Reply-To: <200406281822.OAA05947@wordstock.com> References: <200406281822.OAA05947@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <20040628184037.10302@mail.earthlink.net> On Monday, June 28, 2004, Bryan Pope, wrote: >> ? Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card > >What does this do for the IIgs? VGA graphics. A (very) few programs even took advantage of the ability. More important to me is the convenience of being able to use a standard VGA monitor. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 28 13:41:24 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627082148.0086a8f0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1088448083.4358.2.camel@dhcp-250231> On *nix systems, at least, you can mount a file containing a byte-stream image coppy of a disk, as it it were a physical disk. Very handy. Likely there is a DOS/Windows program that does this. (I've learned to assume that when people don't state which OS they want a program for, invariably it's a microsoft product.) tomj On Sun, 2004-06-27 at 05:21, Joe R. wrote: > Maybe I didn't understand what you're asking but it sounds lo me like > what you want is a RAM-disk program. Those have been shipping with MS-DOS > ever since version 2.11 or thereabouts. > > Joe > > > At 10:04 PM 6/26/04 -0700, you wrote: > > > >I know there are lots of utility programs that can > >create image files of floppy disks for MS-DOS. > >Instead of having to write the image file back to a > >physical floppy disk, are there any programs that can > >"mount" disk images to make it appear to MS-DOS as if > >the original floppy disk is in a drive? As an example > >of what I am looking for, "Disk Copy 6.x" can do this > >for the Macintosh. > >- Curt > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > >http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Jun 28 13:38:26 2004 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) In-Reply-To: <20040628184037.10302@mail.earthlink.net> from "Tom Owad" at Jun 28, 04 02:40:37 pm Message-ID: <200406281838.OAA06935@wordstock.com> And thusly Tom Owad spake: > > On Monday, June 28, 2004, Bryan Pope, wrote: > >> · Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card > > > >What does this do for the IIgs? > > VGA graphics. A (very) few programs even took advantage of the ability. > More important to me is the convenience of being able to use a standard > VGA monitor. > Cool! So would you be able to run regular Apple IIgs programs and see them on a VGA monitor with this card? Cheers, Bryan Pope From tomj at wps.com Mon Jun 28 13:51:37 2004 From: tomj at wps.com (Tom Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1088448697.4358.17.camel@dhcp-250231> > > I'm looking for a standalone paper tape reader/punch combo. Something along > > the lines of like a DSI 2400, but I'd really prefer a facit 4070. Must have > > Rs232 interface. I've got both a DSI 2400 and a GNT-4601. Both are fine. The GNT is a little more modern, smaller, lighter, but be warned, there are a lot of 5-level versions of the machine out there (TWX/telex use) but I think all the DSI machines are ASCII. The DSI is a little more rugged. Both are RS-232 with hardware flow control. The GNT does three speeds, but the DSI one speed (mine's 2400), I have no docs for the DSI and 2400 is as fast as the reader/faster than the punch so I don't care about increasnig it. I had to make a funny cable for each (just juggling handshake lines, nothing serious). Both punch mylar just fine, though I suspect the DSI will last longer doing it -- but since it's a semi-production looking machine, they might be worn. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 13:48:46 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: Upgrading a KDF-11B ROMs for MSCP Bootstrap (disassembling a bootstrap ROM?) In-Reply-To: "Robert Armstrong" "Upgrading a KDF-11B ROMs for MSCP Bootstrap (disassembling a bootstrap ROM?)" (Jun 28, 9:24) References: <002701c45d2c$61d48b80$bb02010a@LIFEBOOK> Message-ID: <10406281948.ZM27173@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 9:24, Robert Armstrong wrote: > I have a KDF-11B (that's the quad sized PDP-11/23+ CPU with onboard > serial ports and bootstrap/terminator) that's too old to know how to > boot from MSCP (e.g. RQDX/RD5x) drives. I know later versions of this > board could do that and I was planning to just upgrade the EPROMs on my > board, but all the later EPROM images are 8K bytes - my board has only > 2K (2716) 24 pin EPROMS. There's no way (at least no simple way) to > install 8K 28pin EPROMs. Actually, the EPROM sockets on my board are so > close together that I don't think I could get 28 pin devices to fit even > if I did "flying leads" for the extra 4 pins. > > Did the later KDF-11B boards really have 28 pin sockets? Is this > upgrade hopeless? (Bob and I exchanged some private email earlier, so he already knows part of this...) No, apparently they didn't; I checked the manuals. The later bootstraps used Motorola 24-pin 8Kx8 EPROMs (or potentially 8Kx8 mask ROMs, which have the same pinout, though I've never seen any DEC ones). The ones I've got are from a PDT, I think: they're type SCM90448C. To switch from 2Kx8 EPROMs to 8Kx8 EPROMs/mask ROMs, move the link from J23-J24 to J22-J23. Oh, and the DU: bootstrap that I posted to the list (following a post by Jerome) was on Monday June 14th, if you want to dig in the archive for "Re: Qbus hard disk controller". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 28 13:58:13 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) References: Message-ID: <014301c45d41$dd487ff0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 2:35 PM Subject: Re: VCFe (trades) > >> . Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card > > > >What does this do for the IIgs? > > Gives it ESP so you can see tomorrow's lottery numbers (or was that the > 'Third Eye' card?) > > -chris > > > > Who needs a lottery ticket when these boards are going for $365 with 1 day still left on eBay. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 28 14:01:37 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: local finds In-Reply-To: <000101c45ba4$5b9ee280$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> References: <000101c45ba4$5b9ee280$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> Message-ID: <200406281401.37636.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 26 June 2004 12:38, Jack Rubin wrote: > Found these in Chicago: > > Vax 4000-300 > Dec R400X > TU-81 Plus > > Free for pickup - will not ship. Hey, did you get my email about this yet? My mail from home sometimes doesn't like to go through, so I thought I'd check. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 28 14:05:15 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: local finds In-Reply-To: <200406281401.37636.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <000101c45ba4$5b9ee280$1f6fa8c0@eths.k12.il.us> <200406281401.37636.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200406281405.15634.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 28 June 2004 14:01, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Hey, did you get my email about this yet? My mail from home > sometimes doesn't like to go through, so I thought I'd check. Grumble...supposed to be private, sorry. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 14:02:44 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: m9312 roms In-Reply-To: "re: m9312 roms" (Jun 27, 8:13) References: <59590.216.218.236.136.1088349185.squirrel@mail.sasquatch.com> Message-ID: <10406282002.ZM27185@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 27, 8:13, wrote: > > I have several roms and a reader, what format would be the most portable? If you mean file format, probably Intel HEX files. I usually use binary for ROM images, but those ROMs are small so it's not really an issue. More programmers handle Intel HEX than S-records (though some handle both, and there are various utilities on the net, including mine, to convert between them). If you mean data layout in the file, remember those ROMs are 4-bit wide. A lot of programmers only use one half of each byte in the file. Mine happens to use the lower 4 bits, but I believe some may use the upper 4 bits. It might be worth copying whichever 4 bits your programmer provides into the other four (ie if the data in one 4-bit word is binary 1011, and the programmer creates a file with byte value 00001011 for that word, turn it into 10111011). You'll end up with a file that's 512x8 instead of 512x4, of course, but you would anyway, as that's what most programmers use for such devices. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From paul at frixxon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 14:18:23 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:54 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: <10406280135.ZM26456@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> <10406280135.ZM26456@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <40E06EFF.4070907@frixxon.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > The last thing I > scanned was a 166-page DEC manual, which came out as 6.4MB of PDF or > 6.3MB of G4 TIFFs in a single TIFF file. That's a lot better than your > 20MB JPEG, and higher resolution, too. But not quite as good as the 400 KiB of plain text it started off as ... and became again :-) -- Paul http://vt100.net/manx/ - a catalogue of online computer manuals From ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 28 14:22:57 2004 From: ron.hudson at sbcglobal.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <200406281700.KAA22568@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406281700.KAA22568@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <8FB38028-C938-11D8-B4FA-000393C5A0B6@sbcglobal.net> Hi, A suggestion from my dad, Can you re-locate your bootstrap. If you do do the same words zero out or do the new locations? On Jun 28, 2004, at 10:00 AM, Dwight K. Elvey wrote: >> From: "Wai-Sun Chia" >> >> I have MM11-DP (16kW parity core) in my /04 which seems to have a >> little >> problem. >> >> Several locations which I've checked seems to be losing content (core >> is >> supposed to be non-volatile). I've been debugging custom bootloaders >> for the past week and it has since gone past annoying. It's like 3 >> locations out of 50 that are always reverting back to 000000 after a >> reboot. >> >> Perhaps it's the driver logic to these 3 particular cores that are not >> functioning properly? Or is it the cores itself? >> >> >> -- >> /wai-sun >> > > Hi > It is more likely that a spurious write pulse is happening > when you power off. On my computer, you need to stop the > processor first before turning it off. If I don't do this, > a few bits get corrupted. > Dwight > > From MTPro at aol.com Mon Jun 28 14:28:42 2004 From: MTPro at aol.com (MTPro@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCF/E Message-ID: <7574747F.181B1DFD.0000EF7A@aol.com> In a message dated Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:00:29 +0200 (MEST), "Fred N. van Kempen" writes: > Hi all, > > Since I will be in the U.S. during VCF/E, I might as well try to > actually make it there. Is anyone driving there from the > Silicon Valley area? Wow, you would actually drive across the entire US to go? That's like saying since you'll be in China, you might as well drive back to Europe! Isn't it? Best, David, classiccomputing.com From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Jun 28 14:33:27 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: MS BASIC for a Panasonic HHC RL-H1400 In-Reply-To: <10406281939.ZM27164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <200403040443.UAA14338@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040304105045.00ae2fc8@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040304161115.04859678@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040628151304.04c05dc0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >Hi, Roger. > >Prmopted by Bob's message to the list about PDP-11/23+ bootstraps, and >some private email I had with him earlier: > >On Mar 4, 16:18, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: > > > > >Fancy parting with a few? They're 24-pin 8Kx8, which makes them > > >particularly useful for some DEC boot ROMs (which is the only place > > >I've seen them before). They fit *my* programmer :-) > > > > How many you need? It'll take me a few days to find 'em & pack 'em... > >This was in response to some messages on ClassicCmp about Motorola MCM >68764 EPROMs for a Panasonic HHC. Did you ever find any? I'd be happy >to pay for carriage and a little something besides. I'd only need a >few (4, maybe, for DEC bootstraps). I was rummaging up in the attic last week, and found my boxful... Not sure what the difference between 68764's & 68766's, but if memory serves I have both. I'd have to remove labels to see the part numbers, but I can make sure you (or anyone else) can get 64's if they're not interchangeable for your needs. [[ I'm sending this to the list to let anyone else know if you need 'em, I've got 'em.... When I said a 'boxful', I was talking at least 10 kg of 'em... ;-) ]] >Do you still want some Euro coins for your collection? I never did >anything about that, did I... Sure, if they can make the trip unmolested... haven't sent anything that resembled cash thru the mail in quite a long time. Not that it is/was required, of course. I will be going to VCF East this year, so I can bring things along from Northern Michigan if necessary... well, except snow, as that's *finally* all gone ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pkoning at equallogic.com Mon Jun 28 14:33:13 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCF/E References: <7574747F.181B1DFD.0000EF7A@aol.com> Message-ID: <16608.29305.521522.53139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "MTPro" == MTPro writes: MTPro> In a message dated Mon, 28 Jun 2004 17:00:29 +0200 (MEST), MTPro> "Fred N. van Kempen" writes: >> Hi all, >> >> Since I will be in the U.S. during VCF/E, I might as well try to >> actually make it there. Is anyone driving there from the Silicon >> Valley area? MTPro> Wow, you would actually drive across the entire US to go? MTPro> That's like saying since you'll be in China, you might as well MTPro> drive back to Europe! Isn't it? It's not *that* far, and the roads are excellent. If you have the time, it's a great thing to do at least once in your lifetime. I spent 6 weeks on a big circle around the USA 15 years ago (in honor of my naturalization) -- one of the best vacations I ever took. paul From cb at mythtech.net Mon Jun 28 14:40:19 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCF/E Message-ID: >If you have the time, it's a great thing to do at least once in your >lifetime. I spent 6 weeks on a big circle around the USA 15 years ago >(in honor of my naturalization) -- one of the best vacations I ever >took. I'd have to 2nd that. Years and years ago (20?) my family drove an RV from NJ to CA. We followed a VERY twisted path (took us a month to get to CA), hitting as much stuff as we could in between. Probably the single best vacation I've ever been on, and one of the best experiences of my life. Too bad we ran out of time and had to drive straight back to NJ rather than following another twisty path (took us 4 days to get back) -chris From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 28 14:42:43 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCF/E In-Reply-To: <16608.29305.521522.53139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <7574747F.181B1DFD.0000EF7A@aol.com> <16608.29305.521522.53139@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20040628124114.V87566@newshell.lmi.net> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > "Fred N. van Kempen" writes: > >> Hi all, > >> Since I will be in the U.S. during VCF/E, I might as well try to > >> actually make it there. Is anyone driving there from the Silicon > >> Valley area? > MTPro> Wow, you would actually drive across the entire US to go? > MTPro> That's like saying since you'll be in China, you might as well > MTPro> drive back to Europe! Isn't it? > It's not *that* far, and the roads are excellent. > If you have the time, it's a great thing to do at least once in your > lifetime. I spent 6 weeks on a big circle around the USA 15 years ago > (in honor of my naturalization) -- one of the best vacations I ever > took. Is Hans going to do again in his Ural? THAT is the way to do it! From tradde at excite.com Mon Jun 28 14:49:32 2004 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: RK05 alignment pack Message-ID: <20040628194932.3A60B3E0C@xprdmailfe8.nwk.excite.com> I am also in need of one of these for a pdp-8 (16 sector packs). I don't want to keep it, just use it. Is there a way that someone could create one of these for people who might find these useful? Thanks. Tim R. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 28 14:37:49 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040628234033.0125519c@pop-server> References: <3.0.3.32.20040628042347.0122da14@pop-server> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040628153749.008b37c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:40 PM 6/28/04 +1100, you wrote: > >At 09:45 PM 6/27/04 +0100, you wrote: >>It's 8V AC (so there's no pinout information as such) from a 3VA >>transformer of some 11 ohms internal resistance (and yes, that is >>important according to the technical reference manual which I happen to >>have). > >So like some HP calcs the adapter only charges the battery, it won't run >the machine with a dead/missing battery. No, the charger will usually run the 110. Probably because the 110 uses a lead acid battery and they tend to go open when they go bad unlike NiCads that tend to short (and short out the PSU). > >As I expected the battery pack is totally dead. I doubt I'll bother >replacing the battery. I've never seen these cells at any of the usual >electronics suppliers around here. I don't doubt that one of the >specialist battery companies has them, but their prices are too rich for me. You can probably order the batteries from Digikey or someone like that. My personal preference is TNR . Joe > >>> Failing that, would it be safe to remove the battery and connect a 6VDC >>> power supply to the battery terminals? >> >>Should be OK, but of course you'll lose the memory contents (including >>the A: ramdisk) and configuration data when you turn the PSU off. > >I had it running for a while earlier today. Everything seems to be working >as it should. Nothing out of the ordinary beyond the QWERTZ keyboard and >PAM being in German. The only application installed in MS-Word, which is >English. > > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 28 14:41:39 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 03:50 PM 6/28/04 +0100, you wrote: > >Hi all, > My HP 1651B logic analyzer arrived this morning, sans probes. The seller >says he "thought they were in the pouch on top, where the bootdisk is" and >that he "didn't have any left in stock anyway". RUN, don't walk, back to that seller and DEMAND your money back! A set of probes will cost more than a complete LA is worth. He's trying to screw you big time! >Rather typically, all that was in there was a single 40-pin woven cable (HP >part number 01650-61607) and the bootdisk. Murphy's Law at work. > So... Does anyone have spares of any of the following Hewlett-Packard or >Agilent parts in their collection that they'd be willing to part with? > 01650-61607 Woven cable, IDC40 to IDC40 (I need 1x of these) > 01650-61608 Probe, IDC40 to flying-lead (I need 2x of these) > NOTE: the probe module should also include grabber probes. Go look on E-bay at what the grabbers alone are bringing! If you start trying to buy this piece by piece it will cost double what a complete LA can be had for. Joe > >There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on Ebay at the >moment, well, at least there's nothing that's available to the UK. Plenty of >probe kits available USA-only though... > >Thanks. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... Memory is a thing we forget with. > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 28 14:59:58 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCF/E References: Message-ID: <003e01c45d4a$7dc6f350$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts " Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: VCF/E > >If you have the time, it's a great thing to do at least once in your > >lifetime. I spent 6 weeks on a big circle around the USA 15 years ago > >(in honor of my naturalization) -- one of the best vacations I ever > >took. > > I'd have to 2nd that. Years and years ago (20?) my family drove an RV > from NJ to CA. We followed a VERY twisted path (took us a month to get to > CA), hitting as much stuff as we could in between. > > Probably the single best vacation I've ever been on, and one of the best > experiences of my life. > > Too bad we ran out of time and had to drive straight back to NJ rather > than following another twisty path (took us 4 days to get back) > > -chris > > > I remember going to Greece when I was young with my parents. One year we drove all over hitting all the archeological sights you can get to on the mainland, another time we hopped on a boat and spent 2 months hitting different islands for a week or so each. These days even if you have the money getting 2 months off of work at a time is very hard. Those were the best vacations I ever had, nobody was in a hurry and the money was plentiful so you just did whatever you wanted and ate anywhere you pleased. There is nothing as refreshing as taking a few months off to explore far away from home. While we did travel in the US for vacations it was always a direct drive to the location and then some exploring while you were there, nothing like the exploring we did in Greece (both my parents were born there and knew their way around). From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 15:03:39 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 18:02, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 27 Jun 2004 19:01:09 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Still no luck. I've now tried with and without the 'x' present in the > > passwd file, and with and without the encrypted password string in the > > shadow file. > Mount the "locked" disk from a wotking IRIX of the same major version, > do a chroot(1M) to it and type "passwd root"... Problem there is that the system disk for which I do have full access is only IRIX 4.0.5 - the 'new' system disk for which I don't have any passwords is IRIX 5.3. I just tried clearing the 'x' (indicating shadow password use) for the guest account on the new disk and I couldn't even login using the guest account when rebooting with the new drive as the system disk. That seems to rule out it being some configuration somewhere which was simply disallowing direct root login access. So... 1) System is trying to use some authentication other than /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow. What other authentication methods existed for IRIX 5.3? If the system's trying to use some form of remote authentication then naturally that's not going to work any more :-) 2) Some required library is missing for some reason on the new drive, but it's not being reported in any meaningful fashion... cheers Jules From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 28 15:15:24 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: RSTS/E software References: <000e01c44337$f65c1a70$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <002601c45d4c$a5bc1140$99100f14@mcothran1> If anyone on the list has a pre-V7 version of RSTS/E, can you contact me off-list? Thanks, Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2004 12:28 PM Subject: Re: RSTS/E software > >Does anyone know if any of the v6 or v5 distributions have > >survived to the present time? > > Copies of V6 have survived, I'm aware of one list member that has a > copy, but can't get to the physical media at this time. I'm also > aware of one or two other people that have emulator images but, > despite of the "Supnik License", are unwilling to make it available. > > I'm not aware of any copies of V5, but three DECtapes for V4A-12 were > recently imaged. > > I'd be *VERY* interested in getting copies of pre-V7 RSTS, as well as > additional versions of V7 and V8 , and any layered products. > > Zane > > -- > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 28 15:30:00 2004 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406281330.00468.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Joe is absolutely right. Look on eBay - pods are worth serious $$ and LAs go cheap!! Get your money back!! Lyle On Monday 28 June 2004 12:41, Joe R. wrote: > At 03:50 PM 6/28/04 +0100, you wrote: > >Hi all, > > My HP 1651B logic analyzer arrived this morning, sans probes. The seller > >says he "thought they were in the pouch on top, where the bootdisk is" and > >that he "didn't have any left in stock anyway". > > RUN, don't walk, back to that seller and DEMAND your money back! A set > of probes will cost more than a complete LA is worth. He's trying to screw > you big time! > > Joe -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 28 15:44:36 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP 7200A plotter Message-ID: <003f01c45d50$ba6cdd00$99100f14@mcothran1> Ok, I'm going to surprise everyone and ask a question about a non-DEC item. Does anyone here have an HP 7200A plotter that they would like to get rid of? These were used in the 1970s. Ashley P.S. Even though it's a non-DEC thing, we used to have one connected to our PDP-11/40. I can't seem to find many references to these on Google or anywhere else. From medavidson at mac.com Mon Jun 28 15:34:32 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: bigass DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> References: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> Message-ID: <8F961AC2-C942-11D8-9D23-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> Where are you located? This would be a machine I'd be interested in! How long would you be able to hold it? Mark On Jun 28, 2004, at 8:46 AM, Tom Ponsford wrote: > Hi All, > > Today at the preview for the UA auction tomorrow, I saw one bigass DG > Aviion. I believe it is a 9500+. > I pulled the cpu board from the back of the VME bus and it showed 4 > (four) 88110RC50F motorolla processors, which I believe are > 50Mhz 88110's. It also had about 523MB of memory. but no disks. > Usually these rack-size monsters go for next to nothing > $25.00, > sometines as low as $2.50 > > Any takers ??. For a small consideration I can buy and hold as > obviously you don't want to ship it. > > Cheers > > Tom > > > -- > --- > Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread > back to the beginning. > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jun 28 15:41:59 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <2d6d4cc64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > RUN, don't walk, back to that seller and DEMAND your money back! A set > of probes will cost more than a complete LA is worth. He's trying to screw > you big time! Well, he's offered a $50 partial refund (I paid $272.71 for the analyser - $207.50 plus $57.60 shipping and $7.61 insurance). The problem is, shipping it back to him in France is going to cost roughly another $100 and I'll only get the $207.50 back. So $207.50 minus $100 is $107.50, add on the shipping and insurance leaves me $172.71 out of pocket for basically nothing. > Go look on E-bay at what the grabbers alone are bringing! If you start > trying to buy this piece by piece it will cost double what a complete LA > can be had for. Murphy's Law in action. I've got the analyser, I've got a National Instruments TNT+ GPIB card, I've got the GPIB cables and I've got one pod-to-analyser cable. I have no pods and I need at least one more pod-to-analyser cable. Yay. Ordinarily I'd just use a 40-way IDC cable, but the cable seems to have been woven to reduce interference and noise absorption. That and all the signal lines are 180 Ohms measured from cable-end to cable-end while the ground and power lines are less than one ohm. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... "I'll be back ;-)" From aek at spies.com Mon Jun 28 15:53:44 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: RK05 alignment pack Message-ID: <20040628205344.GA11489@spies.com> Is there a way that someone could create one of these for people who might find these useful? -- Crisis Computer in San Jose has the equipment to write CE packs. They aren't going to be cheap. I'm guessing $300 to $500. They are probably the only place in the world left that has the gear to do this. Realigning 2315 heads isn't something you want to do if you don't absolutlely HAVE to, since you run the risk of making the packs that you have unreadable, if they were written on drives that are off spec. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Jun 28 16:07:48 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040628230748.7bd36e72.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:03:39 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Problem there is that the system disk for which I do have full access > is only IRIX 4.0.5 - the 'new' system disk for which I don't have any > passwords is IRIX 5.3. Suboptimal. > 1) System is trying to use some authentication other than /etc/passwd > and /etc/shadow. What other authentication methods existed for IRIX > 5.3? NIS / YP? What is configured in /etc/nsswitch.conf? Are there any other network services configured? NFS / automount? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 28 16:30:03 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP 7200A plotter In-Reply-To: <003f01c45d50$ba6cdd00$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040628173003.0086fe30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> A 7200??? I've never heard of one and the model number doesn't fit with the ones that I've heard of. Do you have a picture? Joe At 04:44 PM 6/28/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Ok, I'm going to surprise everyone and ask a >question about a non-DEC item. Does anyone here >have an HP 7200A plotter that they would like to >get rid of? These were used in the 1970s. > >Ashley > >P.S. Even though it's a non-DEC thing, we used to >have one connected to our PDP-11/40. I can't seem >to find many references to these on Google or >anywhere else. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 28 16:36:11 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <2d6d4cc64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:41 PM 6/28/04 +0100, you wrote: > >In message <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >> RUN, don't walk, back to that seller and DEMAND your money back! A set >> of probes will cost more than a complete LA is worth. He's trying to screw >> you big time! >Well, he's offered a $50 partial refund (I paid $272.71 for the analyser - >$207.50 plus $57.60 shipping and $7.61 insurance). The problem is, shipping >it back to him in France is going to cost roughly another $100 and I'll only >get the $207.50 back. So $207.50 minus $100 is $107.50, add on the shipping >and insurance leaves me $172.71 out of pocket for basically nothing. BS! He's the one that shipped it without the pods. You're entitled to all of your money back! If he wants it back, then he should pay for the return shipping. Furthermore the missing pods, leads and grabbers are worth considerably more than $50! In fact, he has it backwards. The LA without the accessories MIGHT be worth $50. The accessories are worth $200! > >> Go look on E-bay at what the grabbers alone are bringing! If you start >> trying to buy this piece by piece it will cost double what a complete LA >> can be had for. >Murphy's Law in action. I've got the analyser, I've got a National >Instruments TNT+ GPIB card, I've got the GPIB cables and I've got one >pod-to-analyser cable. I have no pods and I need at least one more >pod-to-analyser cable. Yay. >Ordinarily I'd just use a 40-way IDC cable, but the cable seems to have been >woven to reduce interference and noise absorption. That and all the signal >lines are 180 Ohms measured from cable-end to cable-end while the ground and >power lines are less than one ohm. I'm sure they're special cables. If they didn't need to be then HP would have used IDC cables. I have NEVER seen a LA that used IDC cables and I have a LOT of them. (Gould, Dolch, HP, Tektronix, Paratronics, etc, etc) Joe From waltje at pdp11.nl Mon Jun 28 16:43:07 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCF/E In-Reply-To: <7574747F.181B1DFD.0000EF7A@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 MTPro@aol.com wrote: > Wow, you would actually drive across the entire US to go? That's like saying since you'll be in China, you might as well drive back to Europe! Isn't it? Best, David, classiccomputing.com Yes. --f From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Mon Jun 28 16:56:09 2004 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) In-Reply-To: <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> References: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040628175426.02e73980@mail.n.ml.org> Found: Unix System V, 2" thick soft cover book, instructional, 1995-ish, GoodWill, New Windsor, NY, 12553. Anyone interested? Price is unknown as it had no price tag when I was there. -John Boffemmyer IV At 02:20 PM 6/28/2004, you wrote: >On Sunday, June 27, 2004, Jay West, wrote: > >My vehicle/trailer arrangements are all made, and it turns out I'll have a > >bit more room than I was expecting. So... if anyone wants to arrange any > >trades in advance and is also going to VCFe, nows the time to let me know. > >I'm already getting all the stuff together that I'm taking so let me know > >asap if I may have something someone would want me to bring. > >Here's some stuff I'll have for trade/sale. If interested, let me know >before the show, as otherwise, none of this will be brought along: > >IBM System/23 Datamaster. Two desktop units and one tower unit. All >three power up and are able to read a directory from disk, not tested further. > >Convergent Technologies tower system, with cute little matching terminal. > Two boxes full of tapes (system software, emacs, other stuff) and a box >full of manuals. Runs AT&T Unix System V, and some of the manuals are >AT&T. All completely untested. I do have the (alleged) root password. > >AT&T Unix PC (or PC 7300, I forget which). Complete, untested. > >Motorola PowerStack with a really nice set of manuals and a variety of >operating systems and peripherals. Email for more details. > >Rockwell AIM 65. Mounted on a sheet of plywood. Complete, untested. > >Seiko Datagraph UC-2001 PDA wristwatch. New in Box > >ProAudio Spectrum 16, 16-bit sound system for Mac LC, Classic. New in box. > >Lots of ADB keyboards and mice. > > >I'm interested in unusual Apple-related stuff, and other. To make a >random list: > > ? Any Apple and Macintosh clones (predominantly pre-PPC) > ? Vertegri iMediaEngine > ? Magic Sac (or similar) > ? Any Apple prototypes > ? Obscure Apple equipment > ? NeXT Cube > ? Corvus Concept 68000 > ? 802.11b bridge (ie. to wireless points to bridge an > ethernet network) > ? Apple IIgs 4/8MB memory card > ? Apple IIgs Second Sight Video Card > ? Apple II LANceGS card > ? Apple II CF interface card > ? Apple IIc LCD display > ? 8MB RAM card for IIgs > ? ZipGS > ? PC Transporter > ? Cauzin Softstrip Reader > ? Apple II slot extension board > ? AT&T UNIX PC Ethernet Board > ? PERQ > ? Mac-compatible external SCSI CD-R drive > > >Tom > >Applefritter >www.applefritter.com ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jun 28 17:16:21 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > BS! He's the one that shipped it without the pods. You're entitled to > all of your money back! If he wants it back, then he should pay for the > return shipping. Furthermore the missing pods, leads and grabbers are worth > considerably more than $50! In fact, he has it backwards. The LA without > the accessories MIGHT be worth $50. The accessories are worth $200! His excuse: [quote] >> The probe kits usually sell for a premium on Ebay, the last few I saw >> sold for around $50 just for the analyser-to-pod cable > I'm not specialist but there's a minimum of 15 auctions on us ebay each > week and it's really low prices compare to what you mantion. [/quote] Earlier he said: [quote] > in fact I've few pod that I devide on the equipement in stock to sold them > at low price, so eaxh bidder will have a working set up. [/quote] I've sent a fairly strongly worded email to him demanding a refund, so I'll see what happens next. > I'm sure they're special cables. If they didn't need to be then HP would > have used IDC cables. I have NEVER seen a LA that used IDC cables and I > have a LOT of them. (Gould, Dolch, HP, Tektronix, Paratronics, etc, etc) Drat. Apparently the cabling for the data lines is nichrome. Whether that's for mechanical, reliability or electrical reasons I have no idea. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... How come all the buttons keep flying off my shirt? From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jun 28 17:17:41 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: <20040628230748.7bd36e72.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628230748.7bd36e72.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1088461061.23943.98.camel@weka.localdomain> On Mon, 2004-06-28 at 21:07, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:03:39 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Problem there is that the system disk for which I do have full access > > is only IRIX 4.0.5 - the 'new' system disk for which I don't have any > > passwords is IRIX 5.3. > Suboptimal. > > > 1) System is trying to use some authentication other than /etc/passwd > > and /etc/shadow. What other authentication methods existed for IRIX > > 5.3? > NIS / YP? What is configured in /etc/nsswitch.conf? > Are there any other network services configured? NFS / automount? There's no nsswitch.conf on this machine, and yp's turned off within the /etc/config tree. I'm wondering if it's something within the xdm config that's causing problems. Certainly Xsession has been localised and tries to pipe xauth output to a ssh command using a host on the local network from where the machine came. However I *think* xauth only dictates who can open a connection to the X server, so the fact I'm getting a graphical login up on the display implies to be that this step isn't breaking things. I'll try commenting out the relevant bits and just stick 'xhost +' in there anyway... I'm not sure how xdm does its login and whether there's an xdm-specific option somewhere for using something other than the /etc/passwd file. Trying to untangle the whole X startup process is making my brain hurt - think I'll take a break and fight with it a bit more tomorrow :-) What I really need is a set of xdm config files from a clean IRIX 5.3 install to see how this system differs! cheers, Jules From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 28 17:49:30 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP 7200A plotter In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040628173003.0086fe30@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I don't have a picture of it. I've found reference to it by Google-ing, but only a couple of references. I do remember it. It was flat, sat on a table, was maybe 14" x 14" (a guess), and had little pens that you mounted in the "drawing arm" or whatever you want to call it. I have a page of documentation on how to use it from our 1978 computer center "user's guide". Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Joe R. Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 5:30 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP 7200A plotter A 7200??? I've never heard of one and the model number doesn't fit with the ones that I've heard of. Do you have a picture? Joe At 04:44 PM 6/28/04 -0400, you wrote: > >Ok, I'm going to surprise everyone and ask a >question about a non-DEC item. Does anyone here >have an HP 7200A plotter that they would like to >get rid of? These were used in the 1970s. > >Ashley > >P.S. Even though it's a non-DEC thing, we used to >have one connected to our PDP-11/40. I can't seem >to find many references to these on Google or >anywhere else. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 17:36:14 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: RK05 alignment pack In-Reply-To: <20040628194932.3A60B3E0C@xprdmailfe8.nwk.excite.com> from "Tim" at Jun 28, 4 03:49:32 pm Message-ID: > > > I am also in need of one of these for a pdp-8 (16 sector packs). I > don't want to keep it, just use it. Is there a way that someone could Actually, you can use the same alignment pack on both '8s and '11s. Remember the controller never tries to read data from it, it never looks for a particular sector. All the controller is used for is selecting a drive, positioning the head, and selecting the head. The recording on the alignment pack consists of off-centre (and eccentric) patterns that you look at with a 'scope connected to the read amplifier. You adjust the head position so that, for example, the 2 lobes of the radial alignment patter are reproduced with equal amplitude. The head is then in the right postion. > create one of these for people who might find these useful? Thanks. There is no way to copy this pack on a normal drive. You'd need to at least modify the head positioner, etc. In moments of madness I've thought about trying to make my own 8" floppy drive alignment disks, but I've never got round to it. Again it would involve modifying a drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 17:18:38 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP-110 Plus laptop power supply specs? In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.20040628234033.0125519c@pop-server> from "Dr. Ido" at Jun 28, 4 11:40:33 pm Message-ID: > > At 09:45 PM 6/27/04 +0100, you wrote: > >It's 8V AC (so there's no pinout information as such) from a 3VA > >transformer of some 11 ohms internal resistance (and yes, that is > >important according to the technical reference manual which I happen to > >have). > > So like some HP calcs the adapter only charges the battery, it won't run > the machine with a dead/missing battery. Actually, I have an idea that the 110 and Portable+ will run from the adapter with no battery installed. I am not sure if they're supposed to do this though. > > As I expected the battery pack is totally dead. I doubt I'll bother > replacing the battery. I've never seen these cells at any of the usual > electronics suppliers around here. I don't doubt that one of the > specialist battery companies has them, but their prices are too rich for me. Last time I bought some they were about \pounds 5.00 each for the cells. > I had it running for a while earlier today. Everything seems to be working > as it should. Nothing out of the ordinary beyond the QWERTZ keyboard and > PAM being in German. The only application installed in MS-Word, which is There's a configuration EPROM -- a 27C64 IIRC -- mapped in the processor's I/O space that determines things like the keyboard layout, machine memory size, hard reset defaults, etc. The TechRef gives the format of said EPROM if you want to make changes, etc... > English. You'll find 2 drawers under the machine, one each side, held in by a couple of Torx-head screws. One is almost certainly a 'software drawer' (holds EPORMs), there other might be a RAM drawer if you're lucky. Note that both spaces must contain something for the machine to boot -- HP made dummy drawers that shorted the right couple of pins on the connector together if you didn't have the 'real' drawers. Somewhere I have details of the format of the EPROMs for the software drawer. It's similar to an MS-DOS filesystem. I think I even have a program to burn your own files into EPROM to put in the drawer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 17:19:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: looking to trade for paper tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: <004501c45cbb$115aa750$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> from "Jay West" at Jun 27, 4 09:53:18 pm Message-ID: > > well, if it's a simple card, perhaps I can borrow it and reconstruct another > one. Of course, I'd still need another 4070 :) _If_ you get a 4070 and can't interface it any other way (the parallel interface is not that strange...), then I'll trace out schematics from my serial card. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 17:25:45 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <00cf01c45d33$b89711c0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 28, 4 01:16:59 pm Message-ID: > > How often do you people use a head cleaner to keep your floppy drives = Never!. I'd rather take the time to clean the heads properly than have to hunt for a new head carriage and spend time aligning it. > running (or what do you use to clean them when they don't read disks = > correctly)? Remove the drive from the machine, remove covers and PCB as necessary and clean the heads with a cotton bud soaked in propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 17:42:41 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 28, 4 11:16:21 pm Message-ID: > Drat. Apparently the cabling for the data lines is nichrome. Whether that's > for mechanical, reliability or electrical reasons I have no idea. Almost certainly electrical reasons. Probably to provide series termination of the signals (reduces reflections). -tony From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Jun 28 15:07:43 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: bigass DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <8F961AC2-C942-11D8-9D23-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> References: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> <8F961AC2-C942-11D8-9D23-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> Message-ID: <40E07A8F.9080706@theriver.com> Mark Near Tucson Az. I could hold it for several months if need be. It would be stored in my carport though. Cheers Tom Mark Davidson wrote: > Where are you located? This would be a machine I'd be interested in! > How long would you be able to hold it? > > Mark > > On Jun 28, 2004, at 8:46 AM, Tom Ponsford wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> Today at the preview for the UA auction tomorrow, I saw one bigass DG >> Aviion. I believe it is a 9500+. >> I pulled the cpu board from the back of the VME bus and it showed 4 >> (four) 88110RC50F motorolla processors, which I believe are >> 50Mhz 88110's. It also had about 523MB of memory. but no disks. >> Usually these rack-size monsters go for next to nothing > $25.00, >> sometines as low as $2.50 >> >> Any takers ??. For a small consideration I can buy and hold as >> obviously you don't want to ship it. >> >> Cheers >> >> Tom >> >> >> -- >> --- >> Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread >> back to the beginning. >> > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From auryn at gci-net.com Mon Jun 28 18:01:24 2004 From: auryn at gci-net.com (auryn@gci-net.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP 7200A plotter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:49:30 -0400 "Ashley Carder" wrote: > Sorry, I don't have a picture of it. I've found > reference to it > by Google-ing, but only a couple of references. I do > remember it. > It was flat, sat on a table, was maybe 14" x 14" (a > guess), and > had little pens that you mounted in the "drawing arm" or > whatever > you want to call it. I have a page of documentation on > how to > use it from our 1978 computer center "user's guide". The only 72xx models that I am aware of are (ahem, *were* :>) the 7225{A,B} and 7240/7245. But, the 724x was thermal so I assume that's not it. The 7225 matches your description, though -- ~14-15" square desktop footprint... buttons across the front... --don From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 18:31:01 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: Jules Richardson "IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password" (Jun 27, 19:01) References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <10406290031.ZM27603@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 27, 19:01, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Right, the 'new' machine has IRIX 5.3 installed, and is using shadow > passwords. So, first I tried editing the passwd file and just clearing > the password field for root's entry (which was just set to 'x', > presumably to signify the use of a shadow password), then booting from > the 'new' disk with the cleared password. > > That didn't work - it just gave me an invalid login message. So instead > I tried the same, but cleared the encrypted password string in the > /etc/shadow file. > > Still no luck. I've now tried with and without the 'x' present in the > passwd file, and with and without the encrypted password string in the > shadow file. > > A few possibilities spring to mind: > > 1) IRIX 5.3 doesn't allow direct root login on the X console? It does. Unless someone has restricted root logins to a particular device. > 2) The system's set up to use some sort of authentication other than > /etc/passwd - any pointers for what to look for if so? See if /etc/default/login has a line that says "SITECHECK=" If it does, comment it out. In fact, comment out anything that looks unusually restrictive. > 3) The system's set to read from a file other then /etc/shadow - no idea > where this is set up if so. I don't think you can do that in IRIX 5.3, except as above. However, root's login might not be valid if root's home directory isn't available, or root's shell isn't acceptable, or if there's something in /var/Cadmin/clogin.conf to prevent it, or if there's some restriction on where root can log in (see /etc/default/login). If you delete /etc/shadow (or better, move it out the way) and delete the password field for root in /etc/passwd, it should work. The first line of /etc/passwd should look like: root::0:0:root:/: Even if /etc/default/login has "MANDPASS=YES" in it, this works for root. The reason I suggest moving /etc/shadow out of the way is that it records things like whether a password has expired, or an account is locked because of excessive failed logins. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 18:41:34 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression) In-Reply-To: Paul Williams "Re: manuals in pdf (resolution, compression)" (Jun 28, 20:18) References: <20040627122354.GA31637@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20040627175904.2570@mail.earthlink.net> <10406280135.ZM26456@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <40E06EFF.4070907@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <10406290041.ZM27794@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 20:18, Paul Williams wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The last thing I > > scanned was a 166-page DEC manual, which came out as 6.4MB of PDF or > > 6.3MB of G4 TIFFs in a single TIFF file. That's a lot better than your > > 20MB JPEG, and higher resolution, too. > > But not quite as good as the 400 KiB of plain text it started off as ... > and became again :-) True :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From medavidson at mac.com Mon Jun 28 18:41:40 2004 From: medavidson at mac.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: bigass DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <40E07A8F.9080706@theriver.com> References: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> <8F961AC2-C942-11D8-9D23-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> <40E07A8F.9080706@theriver.com> Message-ID: Tom-- Let's take this discussion off-list... I don't want to clutter the list with my emails full of questions. :) Mark On Jun 28, 2004, at 1:07 PM, Tom Ponsford wrote: > Mark > > Near Tucson Az. I could hold it for several months if need be. It > would be stored in my carport though. > > Cheers > Tom > > Mark Davidson wrote: >> Where are you located? This would be a machine I'd be interested in! >> How long would you be able to hold it? >> Mark >> On Jun 28, 2004, at 8:46 AM, Tom Ponsford wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> Today at the preview for the UA auction tomorrow, I saw one bigass >>> DG Aviion. I believe it is a 9500+. >>> I pulled the cpu board from the back of the VME bus and it showed 4 >>> (four) 88110RC50F motorolla processors, which I believe are >>> 50Mhz 88110's. It also had about 523MB of memory. but no disks. >>> Usually these rack-size monsters go for next to nothing > $25.00, >>> sometines as low as $2.50 >>> >>> Any takers ??. For a small consideration I can buy and hold as >>> obviously you don't want to ship it. >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Tom >>> >>> >>> -- >>> --- >>> Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please >>> unread back to the beginning. >>> > > -- > --- > Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread > back to the beginning. > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 18:48:40 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz "Re: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password" (Jun 28, 23:07) References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628230748.7bd36e72.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <10406290048.ZM27804@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 23:07, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 20:03:39 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Problem there is that the system disk for which I do have full access > > is only IRIX 4.0.5 - the 'new' system disk for which I don't have any > > passwords is IRIX 5.3. > Suboptimal. > > > 1) System is trying to use some authentication other than /etc/passwd > > and /etc/shadow. What other authentication methods existed for IRIX > > 5.3? > NIS / YP? What is configured in /etc/nsswitch.conf? > Are there any other network services configured? NFS / automount? Entries at the top of /etc/password override NIS, and NIS doesn't bother with /etc/shadow but does check /etc/passwd. /etc/nsswitch.conf doesn't exist in IRIX 5.3, so that's not it either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 18:43:14 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: MS BASIC for a Panasonic HHC RL-H1400 In-Reply-To: Pete Turnbull "Re: MS BASIC for a Panasonic HHC RL-H1400" (Jun 28, 19:39) References: <200403040443.UAA14338@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040304105045.00ae2fc8@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040304161115.04859678@mail.30below.com> <10406281939.ZM27164@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <10406290043.ZM27798@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 19:39, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Hi, Roger. > > Prmopted by Bob's message to the list about PDP-11/23+ bootstraps, and > some private email I had with him earlier [ ... ] Sorry, that was meant to go privately. I'll get the hang of this network mail stuff one day, I promise... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Jun 28 19:07:56 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: "Teo Zenios" "Head Cleaners" (Jun 28, 13:16) References: <00cf01c45d33$b89711c0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <10406290107.ZM27829@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 28, 13:16, Teo Zenios wrote: > How often do you people use a head cleaner to keep your floppy drives running Never. You shouldn't need to clean the heads, in normal use. If you do, you have a damaged diskette (or possibly a damaged head, which is scraping oxide off your floppies) which you should track down, cut up, burn, and discard. Of course, sometimes oxide from a damaged floppy will stick to the head, and that will then damage any other disks you put in that drive. (or what do you use to clean them when they don't read disks correctly)? Cotton bud and iso-propyl alcohol. Head-cleaning disks don't do a very good job, especially if the head is really dirty. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Jun 28 19:31:21 2004 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: Help Needed in Houston to Move Collection Message-ID: <00f301c45d70$67f8dea0$04406b43@66067007> I need help to complete moving the collection out of two 1800 sq/ft warehouses into three 45' trailers (no I can save everything). Anyone that can come by on Tuesday or Wednesday to help after 9AM it would be of great help at 7417 Hillcroft. Look for the three large trailers on the lot.. Thanks From whdawson at localisps.net Mon Jun 28 20:29:26 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: TI74 AC adapter specs In-Reply-To: <001e01c45c65$51d607d0$6501a8c0@bbrk0oksry5qza> Message-ID: >From http://www.datamath.org/AC_List.htm : AC9201 120V 6.0V 350mA DC TI-5010, TI-5024, TI-5029, ViewScreen > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard A. Cini > Sent: Sunday, June 27, 2004 12:39 > To: CCTalk (E-mail) > Subject: TI74 AC adapter specs > > > Hi: > > Does anyone have the TI AC-9201 adapter handy that they > could grab tell me > the specs and plug polarity? Thanks. > > Rich > > Rich Cini > Collector of classic computers > Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project > Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ > /************************************************************/ > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Mon Jun 28 20:10:43 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040628211043.008a8e00@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:16 PM 6/28/04 +0100, you wrote: > >In message <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > > >> BS! He's the one that shipped it without the pods. You're entitled to >> all of your money back! If he wants it back, then he should pay for the >> return shipping. Furthermore the missing pods, leads and grabbers are worth >> considerably more than $50! In fact, he has it backwards. The LA without >> the accessories MIGHT be worth $50. The accessories are worth $200! >His excuse: >[quote] >>> The probe kits usually sell for a premium on Ebay, the last few I saw >>> sold for around $50 just for the analyser-to-pod cable >> I'm not specialist but there's a minimum of 15 auctions on us ebay each >> week and it's really low prices compare to what you mantion. In my experience the prices on US E-bay are a lot less than E-bay in Europe so don't let him short you on the price. Joe >[/quote] > >Earlier he said: >[quote] >> in fact I've few pod that I devide on the equipement in stock to sold them >> at low price, so eaxh bidder will have a working set up. >[/quote] >I've sent a fairly strongly worded email to him demanding a refund, so I'll >see what happens next. > >> I'm sure they're special cables. If they didn't need to be then HP would >> have used IDC cables. I have NEVER seen a LA that used IDC cables and I >> have a LOT of them. (Gould, Dolch, HP, Tektronix, Paratronics, etc, etc) >Drat. Apparently the cabling for the data lines is nichrome. Whether that's >for mechanical, reliability or electrical reasons I have no idea. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... How come all the buttons keep flying off my shirt? > > From rschaefe at gcfn.org Mon Jun 28 20:43:21 2004 From: rschaefe at gcfn.org (rschaefe@gcfn.org) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: word document Message-ID: <200406290156.i5T1uYhc032839@huey.classiccmp.org> I have attached your document. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Jun 28 20:47:14 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com><3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <004501c45d7b$00e11c90$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> I'll chime in backing up Joe. If the auction said it included pods, and it didn't, press for a full refund, it's worthless without the pods and the pods are the highest cost item. Joe is correct - logic analyzer without pods is worth $50, just but pods and grabbers are worth $200. No kidding. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe R." To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 4:36 PM Subject: Re: HP analyzer probes > At 09:41 PM 6/28/04 +0100, you wrote: > > > >In message <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > > "Joe R." wrote: > > > >> RUN, don't walk, back to that seller and DEMAND your money back! A set > >> of probes will cost more than a complete LA is worth. He's trying to screw > >> you big time! > >Well, he's offered a $50 partial refund (I paid $272.71 for the analyser - > >$207.50 plus $57.60 shipping and $7.61 insurance). The problem is, shipping > >it back to him in France is going to cost roughly another $100 and I'll only > >get the $207.50 back. So $207.50 minus $100 is $107.50, add on the shipping > >and insurance leaves me $172.71 out of pocket for basically nothing. > > BS! He's the one that shipped it without the pods. You're entitled to > all of your money back! If he wants it back, then he should pay for the > return shipping. Furthermore the missing pods, leads and grabbers are worth > considerably more than $50! In fact, he has it backwards. The LA without > the accessories MIGHT be worth $50. The accessories are worth $200! > > > > >> Go look on E-bay at what the grabbers alone are bringing! If you start > >> trying to buy this piece by piece it will cost double what a complete LA > >> can be had for. > >Murphy's Law in action. I've got the analyser, I've got a National > >Instruments TNT+ GPIB card, I've got the GPIB cables and I've got one > >pod-to-analyser cable. I have no pods and I need at least one more > >pod-to-analyser cable. Yay. > >Ordinarily I'd just use a 40-way IDC cable, but the cable seems to have been > >woven to reduce interference and noise absorption. That and all the signal > >lines are 180 Ohms measured from cable-end to cable-end while the ground and > >power lines are less than one ohm. > > I'm sure they're special cables. If they didn't need to be then HP would > have used IDC cables. I have NEVER seen a LA that used IDC cables and I > have a LOT of them. (Gould, Dolch, HP, Tektronix, Paratronics, etc, etc) > > Joe > > From thompson at new.rr.com Mon Jun 28 20:49:41 2004 From: thompson at new.rr.com (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:55 2005 Subject: bigass DG Aviion In-Reply-To: References: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> <8F961AC2-C942-11D8-9D23-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> <40E07A8F.9080706@theriver.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Mark Davidson wrote: > Tom-- > > Let's take this discussion off-list... I don't want to clutter the list > with my emails full of questions. :) > > Mark > > On Jun 28, 2004, at 1:07 PM, Tom Ponsford wrote: > > > Mark > > > > Near Tucson Az. I could hold it for several months if need be. It > > would be stored in my carport though. > > > > Cheers > > Tom I'd be interested in seeing pictures, if there are any From tradde at excite.com Mon Jun 28 21:17:04 2004 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74 Message-ID: <20040629021704.A498D3DD3@xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> Crisis Computer in San Jose has the equipment to write CE packs. They aren't going to be cheap. I'm guessing $300 to $500. They are probably the only place in the world left that has the gear to do this. Realigning 2315 heads isn't something you want to do if you don't absolutlely HAVE to, since you run the risk of making the packs that you have unreadable, if they were written on drives that are off spec. ------------------- I believe I have to consider this. I have no packs with any data on them that I need. They were all just data packs with automotive parts in inventory and such. I cleaned a pack and loaded it into my RK05 drive zero and it would not pass the read/write test. I don't remember what happened when I tried to use drive 1. I believe it failed but in a different manner. I thought if at least one drive was working I'd be Ok for awhile. I am not sure if I want to spend $300-$500 on trying to get a CE pack that may not help me if my drive is failing for some other reason than alignment. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From sloboyko at yahoo.com Mon Jun 28 21:19:25 2004 From: sloboyko at yahoo.com (Loboyko Steve) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes Message-ID: <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> philpem@dsl.pipex.com stated: >Drat. Apparently the cabling for the data lines is >nichrome. Whether >that's >for mechanical, reliability or electrical reasons I >have no idea. >Later. The only reason I can think of for nichrome is that there would be a uniform resistance in the wire (likely) or (unlikely) nichrome is a poor (for a metal) conductor of heat. My Tek 1230 is definitely plain old IDC, and that model is worth up to and including nothing without the probes. Probes are $400+ (without the grabbers!). I have 3 and have turned down an offer for $300 for one of them. I spoke with a surplus test equipment supplier and he told me that these are almost always lost when they go up for auction, especially military. Off lease, they just bill the customer and dump them surplus anyway. I actually looked into building a probe - no schematics, no info from TEK, custom and proprietary IC's, and I suspect absolute analog comparator voodoo designed for clean and fast risetimes. Bottom line: you need to get your dough back. Accept no less. ===== -Steve Loboyko Incredible wisdom actually found in a commerical fortune cookie: "When small men cast long shadows, then it is very late in the day." Website: http://juliepalooza.8m.com/sl __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From tponsford at theriver.com Mon Jun 28 18:29:47 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: bigass DG Aviion In-Reply-To: References: <40E03D69.1020504@theriver.com> <8F961AC2-C942-11D8-9D23-000393D3CBB6@mac.com> <40E07A8F.9080706@theriver.com> Message-ID: <40E0A9EB.30001@theriver.com> Paul Thompson wrote: > > I'd be interested in seeing pictures, if there are any > Unfortunatly the auction web site doesn't have any good pictures and I didn't bring my digital camera. You can just barely see it in this photo: http://w3.arizona.edu/~pacs/surplus/public/sale/pics/06290425.JPG You can see the upper half of it just behind the dark blue lamp in the upper right hand portion of the picture. About 5 feet tall and off white in color. Cheers Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 28 21:59:14 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <10406290107.ZM27829@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Jun 29, 4 01:07:56 am" Message-ID: <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> > (or what do you use to clean them when they don't read disks > correctly)? > > Cotton bud and iso-propyl alcohol. Head-cleaning disks don't do a very > good job, especially if the head is really dirty. I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only 70% -- look for the 91% solution if you can, since that evapourates more cleanly. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- "I [still] adore my Commodore 64" ------------------------------------------ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 28 21:53:46 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74 In-Reply-To: <20040629021704.A498D3DD3@xprdmailfe6.nwk.excite.com> from "Tim" at Jun 28, 4 10:17:04 pm Message-ID: > I believe I have to consider this. I have no packs with any data on > them that I need. They were all just data packs with automotive > parts in inventory and such. I cleaned a pack and loaded it into > my RK05 drive zero and it would not pass the read/write test. I don't > remember what happened when I tried to use drive 1. I believe it failed but in a different manner. I thought if at least one drive > was working I'd be Ok for awhile. I am not sure if I want to spend > $300-$500 on trying to get a CE pack that may not help me if my drive > is failing for some other reason than alignment. As the data on your packs is worthless, try reformatting one. A format on an RK05 is like a format on a floppy disk, it will re-write all the sector headers, and does not depend on correct head alignment. If the drive will reformat a pack and will then pass the read/write diagnostic using it, then the only problem with the drive is alignment. If it won't then you have more (electronic) troubleshooting to do. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 28 22:11:20 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I sent you a message off-list about this... if you didn't get it (and > you see this message), let me know! Sorry, I dropped the mail, but the controller is (I think) going... Also, I have a couple of old Sun pizzaboxes - a SS2 and an SS5, I think, mostly in need of important things like disks and stuff. Cheap! I can deliver them to VCFeast. William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 28 22:19:54 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I, too, am getting geared up to do some testing of a couple RK05J drives that I recently acquired. I am working on getting an RK11-D controller so I can hook the drives up to an 11/40 or an 11/34. When I received the drives, I took the cover off and looked inside. They appear to be very clean. There are tags on both drives that indicate that they passed a maintenance check in 1997. I have applied power to both drives. The toggle switches all seem to work and the appropriate lights come on. I have the various RK05 technical manuals and an RK05 maintenance course for field engineers. I have started looking at these documents. Once I hook up the drives to the RK11 controller on the 11/40 or 11/34, what would be the steps involved in testing these drives and getting them up and running if they're mechanically sound? They were shipped from Ohio to South Carolina. I do not want to destroy the heads the first time I put a pack in the drives. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:54 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74 > I believe I have to consider this. I have no packs with any data on > them that I need. They were all just data packs with automotive > parts in inventory and such. I cleaned a pack and loaded it into > my RK05 drive zero and it would not pass the read/write test. I don't > remember what happened when I tried to use drive 1. I believe it failed but in a different manner. I thought if at least one drive > was working I'd be Ok for awhile. I am not sure if I want to spend > $300-$500 on trying to get a CE pack that may not help me if my drive > is failing for some other reason than alignment. As the data on your packs is worthless, try reformatting one. A format on an RK05 is like a format on a floppy disk, it will re-write all the sector headers, and does not depend on correct head alignment. If the drive will reformat a pack and will then pass the read/write diagnostic using it, then the only problem with the drive is alignment. If it won't then you have more (electronic) troubleshooting to do. -tony From aw288 at osfn.org Mon Jun 28 22:14:43 2004 From: aw288 at osfn.org (William Donzelli) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; In-Reply-To: <16604.10016.808000.444887@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > Then there are special cases: the Cray and Alpha integer units, which > don't offer divide at all. Instead, you're supposed to multiply by > the reciprocal of the divisor. This works well, because you can > actually do that faster than the straightforward one bit at a time > division even if you have to calculate the reciprocal at runtime. Do you know how this is done (at least the fancy ways of doing it)? I assume there are shortcuts, as the Cray 1/x pipes were not hugely long compared with the other pipes (there has to be some magic somewhere). William Donzelli aw288@osfn.org From wacarder at usit.net Mon Jun 28 22:26:56 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP 7200A plotter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'll see if I can get some further information on this plotter. Surely an HP plotter can't be this elusive! My documentation does say HP 7200A. Let me drop an email to my retired professor who managed our computer center from the late 1960s through 2001. Perhaps he has some info on it. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of auryn@gci-net.com Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:01 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP 7200A plotter On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:49:30 -0400 "Ashley Carder" wrote: > Sorry, I don't have a picture of it. I've found > reference to it > by Google-ing, but only a couple of references. I do > remember it. > It was flat, sat on a table, was maybe 14" x 14" (a > guess), and > had little pens that you mounted in the "drawing arm" or > whatever > you want to call it. I have a page of documentation on > how to > use it from our 1978 computer center "user's guide". The only 72xx models that I am aware of are (ahem, *were* :>) the 7225{A,B} and 7240/7245. But, the 724x was thermal so I assume that's not it. The 7225 matches your description, though -- ~14-15" square desktop footprint... buttons across the front... --don From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jun 28 22:52:28 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners References: <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <001201c45d8c$7fc3a7b0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:59 PM Subject: Re: Head Cleaners > > (or what do you use to clean them when they don't read disks > > correctly)? > > > > Cotton bud and iso-propyl alcohol. Head-cleaning disks don't do a very > > good job, especially if the head is really dirty. > > I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only 70% -- look > for the 91% solution if you can, since that evapourates more cleanly. > > -- > ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com > -- "I [still] adore my Commodore 64" ------------------------------------------ The 91% solution would be the same found in the cheap cassette tape cleaning kits I assume. The reason I brought this up is because a few days ago I started backing up some vintage Mac software on my 840AV 68k Mac and it had a problem with a few disks, so I switched to my IIfx (same type of drives) and it read those disks no problem. I figured that the 840av disk drive just needed a bit of cleaning since it has been reliable before the last incident. I don't think I have ever cleaned any of the disk drives heads on my PC's (some of which I had for 10 years or more), but I have used a vacuum to suck out the dust that tends to accumulate in the faceplates on newer machines (since multiple cooling fans tend to suck air and dust through disk drives). From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Jun 28 23:26:03 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: looking for DG docs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200406290429.AAA06583@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Also, I have a couple of old Sun pizzaboxes - a SS2 and an SS5, I > think, mostly in need of important things like disks and stuff. > Cheap! I can deliver them to VCFeast. I unfortunately expect I will be absent from VCF East, but if anyone is attending from Montreal, or from somewhere passing through Montreal, I would cheerfully rescue old SPARCs. (Just don't flood me; I can't absorb more than a few cubic feet without trouble.) I also have some stuff that any such person might want to take and sell (you can keep the proceeds). It's mostly stuff from the TI-99/4A and C=64 era; I haven't finished inventorying it yet, or I'd have posted a list here for anyone interested. Just drop me a note off-list if interested. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From donm at cts.com Mon Jun 28 23:45:01 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Jun 2004, Ashley Carder wrote: > I, too, am getting geared up to do some testing of a couple > RK05J drives that I recently acquired. I am working on getting > an RK11-D controller so I can hook the drives up to an 11/40 or > an 11/34. > > When I received the drives, I took the cover off and looked > inside. They appear to be very clean. There are tags on both > drives that indicate that they passed a maintenance check in > 1997. I have applied power to both drives. The toggle switches > all seem to work and the appropriate lights come on. > > I have the various RK05 technical manuals and an RK05 maintenance > course for field engineers. I have started looking at these > documents. > > Once I hook up the drives to the RK11 controller on the 11/40 > or 11/34, what would be the steps involved in testing these drives > and getting them up and running if they're mechanically sound? > They were shipped from Ohio to South Carolina. I do not want to > destroy the heads the first time I put a pack in the drives. > > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 10:54 PM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74 > > > > I believe I have to consider this. I have no packs with any data on > > them that I need. They were all just data packs with automotive > > parts in inventory and such. I cleaned a pack and loaded it into > > my RK05 drive zero and it would not pass the read/write test. I don't > > remember what happened when I tried to use drive 1. I believe it failed > but in a different manner. I thought if at least one drive > > was working I'd be Ok for awhile. I am not sure if I want to spend > > $300-$500 on trying to get a CE pack that may not help me if my drive > > is failing for some other reason than alignment. > > As the data on your packs is worthless, try reformatting one. A format on > an RK05 is like a format on a floppy disk, it will re-write all the > sector headers, and does not depend on correct head alignment. > > If the drive will reformat a pack and will then pass the read/write > diagnostic using it, then the only problem with the drive is alignment. Of course, it is possible that the pack could have been written to by an out of alignment drive and his drive is OK. - don > If it won't then you have more (electronic) troubleshooting to do. > > -tony > > > From dan at ekoan.com Tue Jun 29 00:52:17 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> References: <10406290107.ZM27829@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040629014736.05d44970@enigma> At 10:59 PM 6/28/04, you wrote: >I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only 70% -- look >for the 91% solution if you can, since that evapourates more cleanly. FYI, the Safeway grocery stores around here (Maryland, USA) sell 99% isopropyl rubbing alcohol. That and cotton-tip swabs do a pretty good job of cleaning tape and floppy drive heads. Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 01:46:02 2004 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: My disaster, your good luck Message-ID: <20040629064602.33177.qmail@web60801.mail.yahoo.com> I lurk here, mostly through the digests, not having time to participate. I'm a lifelong computer man, and one-time CP/M code writer. My new landlord has decreed that we four all decamp out apts (and my workshop), by the end of July. I will not be able to take all my treasures with me - hell, I haven't the vaguest idea where I'll be living, or whether I'll have a workshop. So I must let go many things. Some of them are: a semi-pro wet darkroom (Bessler 23C based) an IMSAI 8080 (with a blank front panel) a Lobo Max 80 (10meg HD, three 8" floppies, 2 5-1/4" floppies) numerous Persci 277 8" dual floppies at least one RS Model 100 probably a couple of Macs various S-100 boxes, cards as you need them terminals, monitors BOOKS - dups from my huge library - espionage, sex, computer, probably other various STUFF, not all computer related, that I can't think of right now. Because I'm in a wheelchair, in San Diego, with little time for this, all stuff must be gotten HERE. NO DELIVERY. I'll haggle on price (for a few moments, but I know the value of everything, and the price too). Significant assistance in making a move will be taken into consideration - packing, lifting and hauling to interim storage, etc. So here's your chance. USE IT, or this stuff will end up in the landfill. I AM SERIOUS!!! Vern Wright vern4wright@yahoo.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 29 02:23:38 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In message <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Loboyko Steve wrote: > My Tek 1230 is definitely plain old IDC, and that > model is worth up to and including nothing without the > probes. Probes are $400+ (without the grabbers!). I > have 3 and have turned down an offer for $300 for one > of them. Just out of curiosity, what's the speed rating of your 1230? My HP 1651B can do 25MHz state and 100MHz timing. I suppose I can always try IDC cable. It's not exactly expensive stuff and there's a good chance of it actually working. If I can't get any HP probes and the seller won't refund me for the analyser, it's always an option. > Off lease, they > just bill the customer and dump them surplus anyway. I suppose the same thing happens to oscilloscopes. My Tek 466 still needs another probe - Tek part number P6062B. > I actually looked into building a probe - no > schematics, no info from TEK, custom and proprietary > IC's, The HP probes use a custom analog IC, but the innards of said IC have been published in an appnote. Replacing it is possible - just use two resistors and a capacitor. > Bottom line: you need to get your dough back. Accept > no less. In my experience, I'll probably get negative feedback for requesting a full refund, but I guess it's worth a shot. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... VCR's are a way to defeat time..... From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 29 03:11:52 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:16:21 +0100 Philip Pemberton wrote: > Apparently the cabling for the data lines is nichrome. What is nichrome? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Jun 29 03:07:01 2004 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: <1088461061.23943.98.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628230748.7bd36e72.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088461061.23943.98.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <20040629100701.2e8801e3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:17:41 +0000 Jules Richardson wrote: > Trying to untangle the whole X startup process is making my brain hurt Why not disable the X login / xdm and login on the text console for now? Have you looked at the gettys in /etc/inittab? Maybe a getty is running on the first serial port or can be enabled to do so... Reconfigure the network so that the machine fits into your LAN addressing and try to log in via telnet? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 29 04:45:48 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <00cb01c45dbd$dbb96920$0500fea9@game> Nichrome is Nickel-Chrome wire, generally used in heating elements because of its precise resistance per cross sectional area and length. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jochen Kunz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 4:11 AM Subject: Re: HP analyzer probes > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:16:21 +0100 > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > > Apparently the cabling for the data lines is nichrome. > What is nichrome? > -- > > > tsch??, > Jochen > > Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > Nichrome is Nickel-Chrome wire, commonly used in resistive heating elements because of its precise resistance per cross sectional area and length. Its also pretty strong and resistant to some nasty environments. From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 29 06:51:56 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Message-ID: <20040629115156.2ACDE5D3A@outbox.allstream.net> Hi Guys, I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to move it. My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of an single, double or mixed mode disk. I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system running one), however I have never owned the DD controller. The N* software manual fairly consistantly refers to SECTORS as either 256 or 512 byte depending on density, and FILE BLOCKS as 256 bytes - there are two file blocks to physical sector on the DD controller. My question is this: On page4 H-1 of the NorthStar System Software Manual, the DCOM (Disk Command) subroutine is documented to have these parameters: ACC=NUMBER OF BLOCKS B=COMMAND(0=WRITE, 1=READ, 2=VERIFY, -1=SING-INIT -2=DBL-INIT) C=UNIT NUMBER, Bit7=DOUBLE DENSITY BIT DE=STARTING RAM ADRESS HL=STARTING DISK ADDRESS My concern is that ACC indicates BLOCKS, not SECTORS - does this mean that the DD controller can read/write 1/2 sectors, must always begin on an even block number, or is this a typo and it really refers to 512 byte physical SECTORS. The question also applies to the HL parameter - is this the starting address in 256 byte BLOCKS, or 512 byte SECTORS? I would have assumed that the low-level command would only work on SECTORS, however as noted at the beginning of my message, the manual is fairly consistant elseware to use BLOCKS for 256 byte units, and SECTORS of physical disk units - the use of BLOCKS here would imply 256 byte logical units. This was never an issue on my SD system as BLOCK=SECTOR=256 bytes - both are interchangable. Can anyone with expereience on the N* DD system help clairify this issue? As I do not have a DD system to test on, it would save me considerable time. Thanks, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From waisun.chia at hp.com Mon Jun 28 22:45:18 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Core volatility In-Reply-To: <200406281700.KAA22568@clulw009.amd.com> References: <200406281700.KAA22568@clulw009.amd.com> Message-ID: <40E0E5CE.2000906@hp.com> Dwight K. Elvey wrote: > > Hi > It is more likely that a spurious write pulse is happening Hmm...I don't know whether it's spurious or not as it's always the same 3 locations.. > when you power off. On my computer, you need to stop the > processor first before turning it off. If I don't do this, > a few bits get corrupted. > Dwight Good suggestion. I'll try it and let everybody know. -- /wai-sun From bill_maclean at west-point.org Mon Jun 28 22:59:35 2004 From: bill_maclean at west-point.org (Bill MacLean) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-August/017875.h tml Message-ID: <6.1.0.6.0.20040628234333.037297b0@argon.west-point.org> So. Chatham, Mass. Bob-- "Applicon made CAD/CAM systems, very good ones too." Thank you! My older son sent me this link http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2003-August/017875.html today, apparently from a Google search. I worked several missions at Applicon, Burlington, 1969-1985; recall the type system you describe very well. "I used to work on these things!" Didn't we all. :^) Forgive me if your name doesn't come to mind after 25 years. Please remind me of your location, department. Best regards. --Bill From waisun.chia at hp.com Tue Jun 29 02:21:15 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: RX02 115VAC/60Hz -> 230VAC/50Hz In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040628153749.008b37c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.3.32.20040628042347.0122da14@pop-server> <3.0.6.32.20040628153749.008b37c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <40E1186B.4030909@hp.com> Hello list, I have the possibility of acquiring a RX02-BA 115VAC/60Hz standard North American power. I have a couple of questions concerning the feasibility of a power conversion on it. After studying the schematics of H771 of the RX01/02 units and the manual, there are 4 things to do for a power conversion: 1. Replace H771-A with H771-C or H771-D. 2. Replace power harness 3. Replace belt and pulley 4. Replace circuit breaker Here my questions: 1. From the schematics, the difference in H771-A and H771-C or -D is the transformer has no center tap on the US supply. Does this mean that there's no way for a DIY conversion job? Or it just mean that the transformer does have a center tap and it's just unwired? 2. Power harness is no big deal, I can just make a new one. 3. Belt and pulley; this is the tough one. Calling UK list members: anybody has spares? 4. Can the circuit breaker still be bought in electrical/electronics supply stores? Thanks. /wai-sun From cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 01:26:08 2004 From: cfnelson_87111 at yahoo.com (Curt Nelson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Mount disk images for MS-DOS Message-ID: <20040629062608.33279.qmail@web52904.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, I am trying to find an MS-DOS version of what Teo Zenios described in his June 28 reply (excerpted below) to my original posting: ***** by Teo Zenios Under Mac OS and Disk Copy 6.3.3 you can image any number of disks that can then be double clicked and show up on the desktop just like a real disk would when inserted into the drive. This allows programs with multiple disks to be imaged and then installed directly from the images instead of having to be converted back to a real disk and inserted one at a time into the computer when it needed the next disk. If there a program in dos (assuming you had enough memory to work with) that did the same type of thing you could install multi disk games and apps without messing with real disks or hacking the files to the HD or a CD. The process would allow you to put your originals in a vault and never use them or a real floppy disk again. ***** I use an almost-vintage IBM ThinkPad 701 notebook (486 processor, 640x480 VGA display) for playing around with my "old" MS-DOS stuff (late 80s and early 90s vintage). Even using a 3.5" floppy requires an external drive for the ThinkPad; reading a 5.25" floppy requires that I drag out another system with the proper drive and then transfer the disk contents to a 3.5" floppy. I also worry about the future reliability of these old floppy disks and drives. Using disk images allows me to store away the original floppies. If I could also mount the disk images so they appear to MS-DOS as if there was actually a floppy in an floppy drive, then I could entirely avoid having to mess around with floppy drives and disks. I hope this clears up what I am trying to do. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From caa007216 at ono.com Tue Jun 29 07:19:41 2004 From: caa007216 at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <20040629115156.2ACDE5D3A@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <40D794F200004447@mta02.ono.com> Hello. Perhaps the cause of it could be some restrictions in our Firewall, but I'm trying to access the document archive in Al Kossow's Bitsavers.org during last three days and it's impossible. Someone knows what happens ? Thanks in advance. Sergio From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 08:25:41 2004 From: melamy at earthlink.net (Steve Thatcher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Message-ID: <29362965.1088515544417.JavaMail.root@fozzie.psp.pas.earthlink.net> Hi Dave, I was checking on this over the weekend and read my N* manual on system software. It is true that you can mix densities on a N* OS disk on a file by file basis (insane in my mind, but...). N* specifically talks about 256 byte blocks and indicates that a DD disk contains 2 blocks per sector. The starting disk address has to be independent of density. There would be no way for the controller to check previous tracks or sectors to make the starting address dependent on previous disk info. I would have to check that specifically when I get home tonight. The CP/M variation is all DD and I am sure would not allow any mixed densities as N* allows in their OS. If you want, have the guy send me a couple of 10 sector disks and I will send him back a 52K and 56K CP/M system disks. All he needs to do is cover postage. By the way, I booted up my N* OS and CP/M over the weekend sucessfully after I recreated the Intel ISIS monitor on my N* chassis. Email me offline for address, etc. best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- From: Dave Dunfield Sent: Jun 29, 2004 7:51 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Hi Guys, I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to move it. My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of an single, double or mixed mode disk. I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system running one), however I have never owned the DD controller. The N* software manual fairly consistantly refers to SECTORS as either 256 or 512 byte depending on density, and FILE BLOCKS as 256 bytes - there are two file blocks to physical sector on the DD controller. My question is this: On page4 H-1 of the NorthStar System Software Manual, the DCOM (Disk Command) subroutine is documented to have these parameters: ACC=NUMBER OF BLOCKS B=COMMAND(0=WRITE, 1=READ, 2=VERIFY, -1=SING-INIT -2=DBL-INIT) C=UNIT NUMBER, Bit7=DOUBLE DENSITY BIT DE=STARTING RAM ADRESS HL=STARTING DISK ADDRESS My concern is that ACC indicates BLOCKS, not SECTORS - does this mean that the DD controller can read/write 1/2 sectors, must always begin on an even block number, or is this a typo and it really refers to 512 byte physical SECTORS. The question also applies to the HL parameter - is this the starting address in 256 byte BLOCKS, or 512 byte SECTORS? I would have assumed that the low-level command would only work on SECTORS, however as noted at the beginning of my message, the manual is fairly consistant elseware to use BLOCKS for 256 byte units, and SECTORS of physical disk units - the use of BLOCKS here would imply 256 byte logical units. This was never an issue on my SD system as BLOCK=SECTOR=256 bytes - both are interchangable. Can anyone with expereience on the N* DD system help clairify this issue? As I do not have a DD system to test on, it would save me considerable time. Thanks, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 29 08:28:51 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners References: <10406290107.ZM27829@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <16609.28307.114000.564842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: >> (or what do you use to clean them when they don't read disks >> correctly)? >> >> Cotton bud and iso-propyl alcohol. Head-cleaning disks don't do a >> very good job, especially if the head is really dirty. Cameron> I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only Cameron> 70% -- look for the 91% solution if you can, since that Cameron> evapourates more cleanly. I'd put it more strongly. 70% isopropyl is typically "rubbing alcohol" which has all sorts of weird stuff in it. That may be nice for skin, but not for disks. I'd use a MINIMUM of 91%, and preferably better. Once in college we used reagent grade isopropyl alcohol (from the chemistry stock room) to clean the heads on a 1311 drive (5 platter hard drive) that had suffered a leak in the head actuator and sprayed hydraulic fluid all over the system pack... paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 29 08:33:51 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Modern Electronics (was Re: List charter mods & headcount... ; References: <16604.10016.808000.444887@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16609.28607.410000.894883@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> Then there are special cases: the Cray and Alpha integer units, >> which don't offer divide at all. Instead, you're supposed to >> multiply by the reciprocal of the divisor. This works well, >> because you can actually do that faster than the straightforward >> one bit at a time division even if you have to calculate the >> reciprocal at runtime. William> Do you know how this is done (at least the fancy ways of William> doing it)? I assume there are shortcuts, as the Cray 1/x William> pipes were not hugely long compared with the other pipes William> (there has to be some magic somewhere). Only in outline. The instruction is called "reciprocal approximation" -- I believe it's a Newton's method iterative method for finding the reciprocal of a given number. Apparently Newton's method converges faster (when you throw the right number of gates at the inner loop) than a divide would for the Cray's 64 bit word length. paul From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 29 08:42:47 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <00cb01c45dbd$dbb96920$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <16609.29143.964000.962537@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Teo" == Teo Zenios writes: Teo> Nichrome is Nickel-Chrome wire, generally used in heating Teo> elements because of its precise resistance per cross sectional Teo> area and length. Not "precise" -- that's true for metals in general. But rather because the resistance is quite high and also because the alloy is tolerant of high temperatures. Interestingly enough, nichrome is also used in thermocouples. paul From hansp at citem.org Tue Jun 29 09:01:06 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <40D794F200004447@mta02.ono.com> References: <40D794F200004447@mta02.ono.com> Message-ID: <40E17622.9050403@citem.org> SP wrote: >Hello. Perhaps the cause of it could be some restrictions in our Firewall, >but I'm trying to access the document archive in Al Kossow's Bitsavers.org >during last three days and it's impossible. Someone knows what happens ? > > There do seem to have been intermittent problems over the past few days but I have always managed to connect after a couple of retries. Just tried now and it works fine. Anyone know if there is any progress on the mirrors ? -- HansP From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 29 09:04:14 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <16609.29143.964000.962537@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <16609.29143.964000.962537@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: In message <16609.29143.964000.962537@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Paul Koning wrote: > Interestingly enough, nichrome is also used in thermocouples. Really? I thought the stuff used in thermocouples was a copper-nickel alloy? Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... If you really want to know, you won't ask me. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 29 09:07:50 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? References: <40D794F200004447@mta02.ono.com> <40E17622.9050403@citem.org> Message-ID: <001d01c45de2$76cdb000$033310ac@kwcorp.com> It was written....(re: bitsavers.org) > Anyone know if there is any progress on the mirrors ? Yes, I know if there has been any progress :) Bitsavers.org is mirrored at www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers However, the classiccmp copy is lagging behind the bitsavers original because of bandwidth issues - Al said those would be fixed at some point. Slowly but surely the classiccmp mirror is catching up with the changes. Bandwidth on my end isn't a problem, so I would suggest looking at the classiccmp mirror of bitsavers and if you don't find what you need there then go to bitsavers (until the bandwidth issue at bitsavers is rectified). Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From wacarder at usit.net Tue Jun 29 09:22:28 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? References: <40D794F200004447@mta02.ono.com> <40E17622.9050403@citem.org> <001d01c45de2$76cdb000$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <001601c45de4$82752b20$99100f14@mcothran1> I, too, have set up a bitsavers.org mirror site, but it has not been kept up to date either. It was pulled about a month ago. It is at http://bitsavers.carderweb.com, but it is currently offline because we had a bad lightning storm yesterday and the cable modem got zapped. It should be back online tonight after a trip to Best Buy to get a new cable modem.. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:07 AM Subject: Re: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? > It was written....(re: bitsavers.org) > > Anyone know if there is any progress on the mirrors ? > Yes, I know if there has been any progress :) > > Bitsavers.org is mirrored at www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers > > However, the classiccmp copy is lagging behind the bitsavers original > because of bandwidth issues - Al said those would be fixed at some point. > Slowly but surely the classiccmp mirror is catching up with the changes. > Bandwidth on my end isn't a problem, so I would suggest looking at the > classiccmp mirror of bitsavers and if you don't find what you need there > then go to bitsavers (until the bandwidth issue at bitsavers is rectified). > > Jay West > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 29 09:17:13 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes References: <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <16609.29143.964000.962537@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16609.31209.877000.125977@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Philip" == Philip Pemberton writes: Philip> In message <16609.29143.964000.962537@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Philip> Paul Koning wrote: >> Interestingly enough, nichrome is also used in thermocouples. Philip> Really? I thought the stuff used in thermocouples was a Philip> copper-nickel alloy? I think we're both right -- there are three or four alloy combinations in common use, and several more that are not so common. Here's a reference... http://www.omega.com/toc_asp/frameset.html?book=Temperature&file=tc_colorcodes -- which mentions nichrome as the + wire of a K thermocouple (yellow plug), and copper/nickel ("constantan") as the - wire of a J thermocouple (black plug). For really esoteric, consider the R type: platinum/rhodium alloy for one wire, pure platinum for the other. paul From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 29 09:50:28 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted Message-ID: I have an ASR33 that exhibits the following symptoms in local mode (I have not attempted to test online): 1) Paper will not advance (roller seems to move OK when turned by hand) 2) Bell will not ring 3) When at the start of a line (carriage to the left) it will over print several characters before it starts moving to the right 4) Carriage returns very slowly and sometimes does not make it all the way back 5) Filthy inside (although not as bad as when I got it... I've vacuumed and blown a lot of crud out of it) 6) Smells a little funky... not the clean warm oil smell that I remember from high school days As well as being dirty, I suspect that it was improperly lubricated by the previous owner as it seems to be particularly sticky inside. I also have a nearly new KSR33 from the same source that was improperly handled to the extent that its plastic shell was shattered (it was in a cardboard box with some newspaper, none of the shipping bolts in place, and apparently roughly moved around his ham shack). I have made no attempt to power up the KSR (in case stuff got bent) but I think that it could be used as a source of replacements if some of the parts of the ASR are badly worn. I would like to recruit 3 or 4 knowledgeable and highly motivated classiccmpers (motivated by the prospect of DINNER and BEER on me) at VCF East to completely tear down, clean, adjust, lubricate and reassemble the ASR. I will supply all of the tools and materials (unless you have special purpose tools that will help). I picture a marathon operation, with the experts doing the disassembly, assembly and adjustment work and me with a toothbrush and a pan of Simple Green (or alcohol or kerosene or whatever solvent the experts suggest) busily scrubbing parts as they are handed to me. With four guys and one scrubber, could this be accomplished in a couple of hours? Why don't I do this myself? 1) I don't really have the space. Having the entire interior of a hotel room to myself will be something of a luxury to me (I have two kids). Or maybe I can ask Sellam for some space at the festival and we can make it a spectator sport. It could even become sort of a challenge... "The crew at VCF East was able to rebuild an ASR33 in two hours, how fast can the West or Europe do it?" 2) I don't have the unbroken periods of time. I have the fear that I would get it all apart, have one of my all too frequent family "emergencies" and then have to pack it up, resulting in lost parts when I finally get back to it. 3) I'm a gutless wimp. If I get it apart, I'm not sure I could get it all back together, even with the docs. I have original prints of some of the docs and the rest in electronic form. Email me if interested, Thanks, Bill From wacarder at usit.net Tue Jun 29 10:05:14 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted References: Message-ID: <009a01c45dea$7c3476c0$99100f14@mcothran1> I've been toying with the idea of driving from South Carolina to Boston for the VCF. This ASR33 break-down and rebuild exhibit/contest sounds like it would be worth the drive! If I come, I might be a spectator or maybe even bring my camcorder and tape the activity. - Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:50 AM Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > I have an ASR33 that exhibits the following symptoms in local > mode (I have not attempted to test online): > > 1) Paper will not advance (roller seems to move OK when turned > by hand) > 2) Bell will not ring > 3) When at the start of a line (carriage to the left) it will > over print several characters before it starts moving to > the right > 4) Carriage returns very slowly and sometimes does not make it > all the way back > 5) Filthy inside (although not as bad as when I got it... I've > vacuumed and blown a lot of crud out of it) > 6) Smells a little funky... not the clean warm oil smell that > I remember from high school days > > As well as being dirty, I suspect that it was improperly > lubricated by the previous owner as it seems to be particularly > sticky inside. > > I also have a nearly new KSR33 from the same source that was > improperly handled to the extent that its plastic shell was > shattered (it was in a cardboard box with some newspaper, none > of the shipping bolts in place, and apparently roughly moved > around his ham shack). I have made no attempt to power up the > KSR (in case stuff got bent) but I think that it could be used > as a source of replacements if some of the parts of the ASR are > badly worn. > > I would like to recruit 3 or 4 knowledgeable and highly motivated > classiccmpers (motivated by the prospect of DINNER and BEER on me) > at VCF East to completely tear down, clean, adjust, lubricate and > reassemble the ASR. I will supply all of the tools and materials > (unless you have special purpose tools that will help). I picture > a marathon operation, with the experts doing the disassembly, > assembly and adjustment work and me with a toothbrush and a pan of > Simple Green (or alcohol or kerosene or whatever solvent the experts > suggest) busily scrubbing parts as they are handed to me. With four > guys and one scrubber, could this be accomplished in a couple of > hours? > > Why don't I do this myself? > > 1) I don't really have the space. Having the entire interior of a > hotel room to myself will be something of a luxury to me (I have > two kids). Or maybe I can ask Sellam for some space at the > festival and we can make it a spectator sport. It could even > become sort of a challenge... > "The crew at VCF East was able to rebuild an ASR33 in two hours, > how fast can the West or Europe do it?" > 2) I don't have the unbroken periods of time. I have the fear that I > would get it all apart, have one of my all too frequent family > "emergencies" and then have to pack it up, resulting in lost parts > when I finally get back to it. > 3) I'm a gutless wimp. If I get it apart, I'm not sure I could get > it all back together, even with the docs. I have original prints > of some of the docs and the rest in electronic form. > > Email me if interested, > Thanks, > Bill > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 29 10:15:41 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: <009a01c45dea$7c3476c0$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: I can provide an additional ASR-33 that could use the same...... >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:05 AM >>> To: wh.sudbrink@verizon.net; General Discussion: On-Topic >>> and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted >>> >>> I've been toying with the idea of driving from South >>> Carolina to Boston for the VCF. This ASR33 break-down and >>> rebuild exhibit/contest sounds like it would be worth the drive! >>> >>> If I come, I might be a spectator or maybe even bring my >>> camcorder and tape the activity. >>> >>> - Ashley >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bill Sudbrink" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:50 AM >>> Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted >>> >>> >>> > I have an ASR33 that exhibits the following symptoms in >>> local mode (I >>> > have not attempted to test online): >>> > >>> > 1) Paper will not advance (roller seems to move OK when turned >>> > by hand) >>> > 2) Bell will not ring >>> > 3) When at the start of a line (carriage to the left) it will >>> > over print several characters before it starts moving to >>> > the right >>> > 4) Carriage returns very slowly and sometimes does not make it >>> > all the way back >>> > 5) Filthy inside (although not as bad as when I got it... I've >>> > vacuumed and blown a lot of crud out of it) >>> > 6) Smells a little funky... not the clean warm oil smell that >>> > I remember from high school days >>> > >>> > As well as being dirty, I suspect that it was improperly >>> lubricated by >>> > the previous owner as it seems to be particularly sticky inside. >>> > >>> > I also have a nearly new KSR33 from the same source that was >>> > improperly handled to the extent that its plastic shell >>> was shattered >>> > (it was in a cardboard box with some newspaper, none of >>> the shipping >>> > bolts in place, and apparently roughly moved around his >>> ham shack). I >>> > have made no attempt to power up the KSR (in case stuff >>> got bent) but >>> > I think that it could be used as a source of replacements >>> if some of >>> > the parts of the ASR are badly worn. >>> > >>> > I would like to recruit 3 or 4 knowledgeable and highly motivated >>> > classiccmpers (motivated by the prospect of DINNER and >>> BEER on me) at >>> > VCF East to completely tear down, clean, adjust, lubricate and >>> > reassemble the ASR. I will supply all of the tools and materials >>> > (unless you have special purpose tools that will help). >>> I picture a >>> > marathon operation, with the experts doing the >>> disassembly, assembly >>> > and adjustment work and me with a toothbrush and a pan of >>> Simple Green >>> > (or alcohol or kerosene or whatever solvent the experts >>> > suggest) busily scrubbing parts as they are handed to me. >>> With four >>> > guys and one scrubber, could this be accomplished in a couple of >>> > hours? >>> > >>> > Why don't I do this myself? >>> > >>> > 1) I don't really have the space. Having the entire interior of a >>> > hotel room to myself will be something of a luxury to >>> me (I have >>> > two kids). Or maybe I can ask Sellam for some space at the >>> > festival and we can make it a spectator sport. It could even >>> > become sort of a challenge... >>> > "The crew at VCF East was able to rebuild an ASR33 in >>> two hours, >>> > how fast can the West or Europe do it?" >>> > 2) I don't have the unbroken periods of time. I have the >>> fear that I >>> > would get it all apart, have one of my all too frequent family >>> > "emergencies" and then have to pack it up, resulting >>> in lost parts >>> > when I finally get back to it. >>> > 3) I'm a gutless wimp. If I get it apart, I'm not sure I >>> could get >>> > it all back together, even with the docs. I have >>> original prints >>> > of some of the docs and the rest in electronic form. >>> > >>> > Email me if interested, >>> > Thanks, >>> > Bill >>> > >>> >>> From wacarder at usit.net Tue Jun 29 10:23:30 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted References: Message-ID: <00a701c45ded$090d37b0$99100f14@mcothran1> Is there going to be a vendor nearby with a supply of ASR-33 parts if needed? ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:15 AM Subject: RE: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > I can provide an additional ASR-33 that could use the same...... > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 11:05 AM > >>> To: wh.sudbrink@verizon.net; General Discussion: On-Topic > >>> and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Subject: Re: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > >>> > >>> I've been toying with the idea of driving from South > >>> Carolina to Boston for the VCF. This ASR33 break-down and > >>> rebuild exhibit/contest sounds like it would be worth the drive! > >>> > >>> If I come, I might be a spectator or maybe even bring my > >>> camcorder and tape the activity. > >>> > >>> - Ashley > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Bill Sudbrink" > >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 10:50 AM > >>> Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > >>> > >>> > >>> > I have an ASR33 that exhibits the following symptoms in > >>> local mode (I > >>> > have not attempted to test online): > >>> > > >>> > 1) Paper will not advance (roller seems to move OK when turned > >>> > by hand) > >>> > 2) Bell will not ring > >>> > 3) When at the start of a line (carriage to the left) it will > >>> > over print several characters before it starts moving to > >>> > the right > >>> > 4) Carriage returns very slowly and sometimes does not make it > >>> > all the way back > >>> > 5) Filthy inside (although not as bad as when I got it... I've > >>> > vacuumed and blown a lot of crud out of it) > >>> > 6) Smells a little funky... not the clean warm oil smell that > >>> > I remember from high school days > >>> > > >>> > As well as being dirty, I suspect that it was improperly > >>> lubricated by > >>> > the previous owner as it seems to be particularly sticky inside. > >>> > > >>> > I also have a nearly new KSR33 from the same source that was > >>> > improperly handled to the extent that its plastic shell > >>> was shattered > >>> > (it was in a cardboard box with some newspaper, none of > >>> the shipping > >>> > bolts in place, and apparently roughly moved around his > >>> ham shack). I > >>> > have made no attempt to power up the KSR (in case stuff > >>> got bent) but > >>> > I think that it could be used as a source of replacements > >>> if some of > >>> > the parts of the ASR are badly worn. > >>> > > >>> > I would like to recruit 3 or 4 knowledgeable and highly motivated > >>> > classiccmpers (motivated by the prospect of DINNER and > >>> BEER on me) at > >>> > VCF East to completely tear down, clean, adjust, lubricate and > >>> > reassemble the ASR. I will supply all of the tools and materials > >>> > (unless you have special purpose tools that will help). > >>> I picture a > >>> > marathon operation, with the experts doing the > >>> disassembly, assembly > >>> > and adjustment work and me with a toothbrush and a pan of > >>> Simple Green > >>> > (or alcohol or kerosene or whatever solvent the experts > >>> > suggest) busily scrubbing parts as they are handed to me. > >>> With four > >>> > guys and one scrubber, could this be accomplished in a couple of > >>> > hours? > >>> > > >>> > Why don't I do this myself? > >>> > > >>> > 1) I don't really have the space. Having the entire interior of a > >>> > hotel room to myself will be something of a luxury to > >>> me (I have > >>> > two kids). Or maybe I can ask Sellam for some space at the > >>> > festival and we can make it a spectator sport. It could even > >>> > become sort of a challenge... > >>> > "The crew at VCF East was able to rebuild an ASR33 in > >>> two hours, > >>> > how fast can the West or Europe do it?" > >>> > 2) I don't have the unbroken periods of time. I have the > >>> fear that I > >>> > would get it all apart, have one of my all too frequent family > >>> > "emergencies" and then have to pack it up, resulting > >>> in lost parts > >>> > when I finally get back to it. > >>> > 3) I'm a gutless wimp. If I get it apart, I'm not sure I > >>> could get > >>> > it all back together, even with the docs. I have > >>> original prints > >>> > of some of the docs and the rest in electronic form. > >>> > > >>> > Email me if interested, > >>> > Thanks, > >>> > Bill > >>> > > >>> > >>> > From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 29 10:18:25 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted References: Message-ID: <005a01c45dec$52955580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> It was written.... > I can provide an additional ASR-33 that could use the same...... I could too! I have an ASR33, fair cosmetic condition but totally untested, as well as a parts machine. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From aek at spies.com Tue Jun 29 10:20:54 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? Message-ID: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> Several things are going on right now. At the same time that we were moving bitsavers to its own machine, script kiddies totally FU spies.com We've been dealing with that (little things like not having mail working for most of the weekend) As soon as bitsavers came on line again, google crawlers started downloading EVERYTHING from multiple IP adrs. There is now bandwidth limiting by host so I'm trying to keep them from consuming all of the bandwidth. FTP for mirroring isn't up yet, I've told Jay that I'll email when it works. Haven't heard any more from Patrick about the mirror he was starting. From waisun.chia at hp.com Tue Jun 29 09:42:34 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E chassis + PSU (broken) FREE for pickup In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20040628175426.02e73980@mail.n.ml.org> References: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20040628175426.02e73980@mail.n.ml.org> Message-ID: <40E17FDA.6050104@hp.com> Fellow classiccomputer lovers, I'm in the position to give away a PDP-8/E bare chassis (no backplane, no boards/modules, no front panel) and a broken H724 power supply. It is only for pickup only. I just want the modules and cannot afford to ship the 100+ lbs monster 12000km to myself. Chassis is at San Jose. Contact me offline to confirm. /wai-sun From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 29 10:42:12 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> Message-ID: <200406291042.12471.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 29 June 2004 10:20, Al Kossow wrote: > FTP for mirroring isn't up yet, I've told Jay that I'll email when it > works. Haven't heard any more from Patrick about the mirror he was > starting. "I'm working on it". Actually, it's the 2nd item on my to-do list. First, I've gotta move computer-refuge to a new machine, though. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 29 11:21:31 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: <005a01c45dec$52955580$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: An ASR-33 rebuild center would be quite cool. What I would bring Complete ASR-33 (tractor feed!) unit, known problems include alighment of keyboard typing unit, plastic case destroyed ASR-33 keyboard assembly [somekeys laying in the bottom of the box, all springs appear accounted for ASR-33 typing unit, appears good, previous owener stated working condition, never powered up. David From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 11:16:32 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <200406291042.12471.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> <200406291042.12471.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1088525791.1928.39.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 15:42, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 29 June 2004 10:20, Al Kossow wrote: > > FTP for mirroring isn't up yet, I've told Jay that I'll email when it > > works. Haven't heard any more from Patrick about the mirror he was > > starting. > > "I'm working on it". Actually, it's the 2nd item on my to-do list. Second from top, presumably ;-) cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 29 11:21:06 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:56 2005 Subject: IRIX 5.3 and resetting root password In-Reply-To: <20040629100701.2e8801e3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1088362868.22804.65.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628200211.10d73288.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088453019.23943.58.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040628230748.7bd36e72.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <1088461061.23943.98.camel@weka.localdomain> <20040629100701.2e8801e3.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1088526066.1928.45.camel@weka.localdomain> On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 08:07, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 22:17:41 +0000 > Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Trying to untangle the whole X startup process is making my brain hurt > Why not disable the X login / xdm and login on the text console for now? > > Have you looked at the gettys in /etc/inittab? Maybe a getty is running > on the first serial port or can be enabled to do so... All sorted now :-) Pete sent me the xdm config files so I restored those back to a default state. That, coupled with his suggestion of actually moving the shadow file (rather than just tweaking the contents) did the trick. Now that I've actually managed to get directly into the system, it's clear that a large amount of data was mounted from remote filesystems within the original home of the system, so I'm going to have to do a fresh OS install I think. Now looking for IRIX 5.3 media (actually, I have a couple of very good leads for getting copies already, so I think I'll be OK there) Thanks to you and Pete for your help! cheers, Jules From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 29 11:26:10 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:23 AM 6/29/04 +0100, you wrote: > >In message <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> > Loboyko Steve wrote: > >> Bottom line: you need to get your dough back. Accept >> no less. >In my experience, I'll probably get negative feedback for requesting a full >refund, but I guess it's worth a shot. If he tries that then complain to E-bay. They can and will remove negative feedback in cases like this. You might also file a complaint with the postage authorities in your location and his. If he has a business you can also file complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the equivilent) and law enforcement. Joe > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... VCR's are a way to defeat time..... > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 29 11:31:02 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628154139.008fdb10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040628173611.00878e20@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <011155c64c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040629123102.0091d100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 10:11 AM 6/29/04 +0200, you wrote: > >On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 23:16:21 +0100 >Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Apparently the cabling for the data lines is nichrome. >What is nichrome? Nickel-Chromium wire. It's frequently used in heating elements due to it's high melting point. I have no idea why they'd use it in a LA. It isn't particularly flexible or has any other characteristics that recommend it. Joe >-- > > >tsch??, > Jochen > >Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ > > > > From evan947 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:05:39 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20040629170539.68290.qmail@web52801.mail.yahoo.com> Rather than a contest, you should rebuild the computer in the VCF exhibit hall. Sure, some attendees will get in the way, but I bet it'd be a great draw. --- Bill Sudbrink wrote: > I have an ASR33 that exhibits the following symptoms in local > mode (I have not attempted to test online): > > 1) Paper will not advance (roller seems to move OK when turned > by hand) > 2) Bell will not ring > 3) When at the start of a line (carriage to the left) it will > over print several characters before it starts moving to > the right > 4) Carriage returns very slowly and sometimes does not make it > all the way back > 5) Filthy inside (although not as bad as when I got it... I've > vacuumed and blown a lot of crud out of it) > 6) Smells a little funky... not the clean warm oil smell that > I remember from high school days > > As well as being dirty, I suspect that it was improperly > lubricated by the previous owner as it seems to be particularly > sticky inside. > > I also have a nearly new KSR33 from the same source that was > improperly handled to the extent that its plastic shell was > shattered (it was in a cardboard box with some newspaper, none > of the shipping bolts in place, and apparently roughly moved > around his ham shack). I have made no attempt to power up the > KSR (in case stuff got bent) but I think that it could be used > as a source of replacements if some of the parts of the ASR are > badly worn. > > I would like to recruit 3 or 4 knowledgeable and highly motivated > classiccmpers (motivated by the prospect of DINNER and BEER on me) > at VCF East to completely tear down, clean, adjust, lubricate and > reassemble the ASR. I will supply all of the tools and materials > (unless you have special purpose tools that will help). I picture > a marathon operation, with the experts doing the disassembly, > assembly and adjustment work and me with a toothbrush and a pan of > Simple Green (or alcohol or kerosene or whatever solvent the experts > suggest) busily scrubbing parts as they are handed to me. With four > guys and one scrubber, could this be accomplished in a couple of > hours? > > Why don't I do this myself? > > 1) I don't really have the space. Having the entire interior of a > hotel room to myself will be something of a luxury to me (I have > two kids). Or maybe I can ask Sellam for some space at the > festival and we can make it a spectator sport. It could even > become sort of a challenge... > "The crew at VCF East was able to rebuild an ASR33 in two hours, > how fast can the West or Europe do it?" > 2) I don't have the unbroken periods of time. I have the fear that I > would get it all apart, have one of my all too frequent family > "emergencies" and then have to pack it up, resulting in lost parts > when I finally get back to it. > 3) I'm a gutless wimp. If I get it apart, I'm not sure I could get > it all back together, even with the docs. I have original prints > of some of the docs and the rest in electronic form. > > Email me if interested, > Thanks, > Bill > > From hansp at citem.org Tue Jun 29 12:11:23 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Teaching assembler Message-ID: <40E1A2BB.4040508@citem.org> I just received a copy of Introduction to DECsystem-10 Assembler Language Programming by Michael Singer, published in 1978 by John Wiley ISBN : 0-471-03458-4 I would like to share some excerpts from the preface which resonate with the recent (long) discussion on teaching assembler language programming : With the widespread availability of higher level languages (such as ALGOL, COBOL FORTRAN, PL/1) for computer programming, as well as packages put out by the major computer manufacturers that, almost at the touch of a button, will perform a variety of complex tasks, it is reasonable to ask why any other than a relatively small number of specialists should trouble to learn assembler language programming at all. There are good practical, theoretical and aesthetic reasons for doing so. ... In our opinion, however, the most useful function served by a knowledge of assembler language programming is to give the user a much closer awareness of how the computer works, as well as inestimably greater control over its workings, than is feasible with a higher level language. In our experience, the higher level language user who is familiar with assembler language is a more efficient - even happier - programmer than one who is not. .... The notion that assembler language programming is esoteric and inherently difficult is, in our experience, very much mistaken. On the contrary, for many people it seems to be the natural way to start off with computers. ... All computers have a great deal in common, and much of what is said here applies equally well, with only minor changes, to many other machines. ... Octal and binary numbers must be introduced, and indeed a programmer should ideally be able to think with numbers in any base. Such a facility, however, may be acquired gradually, and so in Section 1.3 we go no further than is necessary to understand what follows. At no stage do we encourage the reader to gain skill in performing calculations in various bases, or in base conversion; in our experience, once the principles are understood, the student's time is better spent in learning how to pass such drudgery to the computer. .... Those readers who want to proceed further, particularly into systems programming, will be ready after reading this book to refer to the manuals. A warning should be given that much less care goes into [the] preparation of the descriptive literature than into the machine itself and its software, and the manuals contain many obscurities and errors. -- HansP From paul at frixxon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 12:16:59 2004 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> Message-ID: <40E1A40B.6020004@frixxon.co.uk> Al Kossow wrote: > > As soon as bitsavers came on line again, google crawlers started downloading > EVERYTHING from multiple IP adrs. Put this in your robots.txt: User-agent: Googlebot Disallow: /*.pdf$ > FTP for mirroring isn't up yet, I've told Jay that I'll email when it works. > Haven't heard any more from Patrick about the mirror he was starting. Mirrors are clearly like buses. I'm one of the "dozens of people"[1] who has a private mirror, for maintaining Manx and OCRing, but that is now going online at VT100.net as I've moved to a dedicated server. Bandwidth is, as Rolls-Royce would say, "adequate". However, I'm populating the mirror from home at only 100 MiB an hour, so it could take weeks to get up to speed! [1] Al, 2004-05-07. -- Paul http://vt100.net/manx/ - a catalogue of online computer manuals From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Jun 29 12:31:57 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: Paul Koning "Re: Head Cleaners" (Jun 29, 9:28) References: <10406290107.ZM27829@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> <16609.28307.114000.564842@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <10406291831.ZM1165@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 29, 9:28, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Cameron" == Cameron Kaiser writes: > Cameron> I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only > Cameron> 70% -- look for the 91% solution if you can, since that > Cameron> evapourates more cleanly. > > I'd put it more strongly. > > 70% isopropyl is typically "rubbing alcohol" which has all sorts of > weird stuff in it. That may be nice for skin, but not for disks. Umm, if someone sold me "rubbing alcohol", I'd wonder what was in it. We have a similar issue here (UK) with "surgical spirit" -- goodness only knows what's in that. But if someone sold me "70% isopropyl alcohol" I'd expect it to be an azeotropic micture of IPA and water, and would be entitled to sue him (or have Trading Standards prosecute) if it contained anything else. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 29 12:46:59 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: wang stuff Message-ID: <004501c45e01$142eb4c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Was googling for something else and came across this... thought I'd post for the wang people here... http://home.wxs.nl/~janvdv/wang/boards_and_manuals.htm --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From sanepsycho at globaldialog.com Tue Jun 29 12:58:07 2004 From: sanepsycho at globaldialog.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Copy of NetWare 3.1x Message-ID: <1088531887.2263.5.camel@azure> Anybody have suggestions as to where I can find a copy of Netware 3.11 or 3.12 for a project I'm working on? Thanks and regards, Paul From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 29 12:54:00 2004 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David V. Corbin wrote: > An ASR-33 rebuild center would be quite cool. What I would bring The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at all those gears and levers" types are going to be there, but none of the "I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with one hand tied behind my back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 29 12:58:39 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <40E1A40B.6020004@frixxon.co.uk> References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> <40E1A40B.6020004@frixxon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200406291258.39364.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 29 June 2004 12:16, Paul Williams wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > As soon as bitsavers came on line again, google crawlers started > > downloading EVERYTHING from multiple IP adrs. > > Put this in your robots.txt: > > User-agent: Googlebot > Disallow: /*.pdf$ Grr. Don't do this. I really hate it when people disallow google to index content. It always makes it harder to find stuff. The only time I'd consider doing it is if the "webserver" is on a dialup connection or something that won't stay at the same IP address. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wacarder at usit.net Tue Jun 29 13:28:50 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted References: Message-ID: <000801c45e06$ed6db060$99100f14@mcothran1> I was thinking the same thing. I heard mention of the word "expert" earlier, but I have not seen anyone step forward and admit to being one of those. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:54 PM Subject: RE: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > David V. Corbin wrote: > > An ASR-33 rebuild center would be quite cool. What I would bring > > The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at all > those gears and levers" types are going to be there, but none of the > "I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with one hand tied behind my > back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 29 13:22:04 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: In message <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> "Joe R." wrote: > If he tries that then complain to E-bay. They can and will remove > negative feedback in cases like this. You might also file a complaint with > the postage authorities in your location and his. If he has a business you > can also file complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the > equivilent) and law enforcement. He's just emailed me to say that he's got some pods, grabber tips and cables due in at some point in the next week or so. In the meantime, I've used a bit of solid-core wire and a few 100K resistors to check the analyser. It's a bodge, but it seems to work fine at low frequencies. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... "Shhh! The Christians think they are up here alone."..God From dan at ekoan.com Tue Jun 29 13:33:22 2004 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.0.3.0.2.20040629143115.05d5cd70@enigma> At 01:54 PM 6/29/04, you wrote: >The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at all >those gears and levers" types are going to be there, but none of the >"I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with one hand tied behind my >back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. Maybe we should all pitch in to fly Tony in from the UK and make it worth his while to serve as repair foreman. However, I'm not sure anything short of an HP 9100B would be enough to get him to attend... Cheers, Dan From hansp at citem.org Tue Jun 29 13:22:42 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <200406291258.39364.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> <40E1A40B.6020004@frixxon.co.uk> <200406291258.39364.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <40E1B372.6010601@citem.org> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >Grr. Don't do this. I really hate it when people disallow google to >index content. It always makes it harder to find stuff. The only time >I'd consider doing it is if the "webserver" is on a dialup connection >or something that won't stay at the same IP address. > > It would surprise me if Google gets anything out of the .pdf files at bitsavers. They are all (mostly?) image scans.... Then again if Google DOES OCR and index the scans all our problems are solved ;-) -- HansP From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 29 13:35:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Weather is supposed to be good, I could bring excellent stage lighting, and insure that there is no hand typing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Sudbrink >>> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:54 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: RE: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted >>> >>> David V. Corbin wrote: >>> > An ASR-33 rebuild center would be quite cool. What I would bring >>> >>> The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at >>> all those gears and levers" types are going to be there, >>> but none of the "I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with >>> one hand tied behind my back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. From hansp at citem.org Tue Jun 29 13:27:32 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20040629143115.05d5cd70@enigma> References: <6.0.3.0.2.20040629143115.05d5cd70@enigma> Message-ID: <40E1B494.4070903@citem.org> Dan Veeneman wrote: > Maybe we should all pitch in to fly Tony in from the UK > and make it worth his while to serve as repair foreman. > However, I'm not sure anything short of an HP 9100B would > be enough to get him to attend... Your prayer are answered. I have a 9100 in need of Tony's help. All you need is to fly me and my 9100 from France ;-) -- HansP From pkoning at equallogic.com Tue Jun 29 13:30:08 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> <40E1A40B.6020004@frixxon.co.uk> <200406291258.39364.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <16609.46384.718240.352411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> On Tuesday 29 June 2004 12:16, Paul Williams wrote: >> Al Kossow wrote: > As soon as bitsavers came on line again, google >> crawlers started > downloading EVERYTHING from multiple IP adrs. >> >> Put this in your robots.txt: >> >> User-agent: Googlebot Disallow: /*.pdf$ Patrick> Grr. Don't do this. I really hate it when people disallow Patrick> google to index content. It always makes it harder to find Patrick> stuff. The only time I'd consider doing it is if the Patrick> "webserver" is on a dialup connection or something that Patrick> won't stay at the same IP address. There's a second reason, which applies here -- there IS no content that Google can index, because those files are all bitmap -- no text. If there were text files or OCRed PDF files, that would be different, but as it is, Google will find absolutely nothing. So Al might as well tell it not to try. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 29 13:39:25 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Any problem with Document Archive in Bitsavers.org ? In-Reply-To: <16609.46384.718240.352411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200406291520.i5TFKsbm032333@spies.com> <200406291258.39364.pat@computer-refuge.org> <16609.46384.718240.352411@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200406291339.25166.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 29 June 2004 13:30, Paul Koning wrote: > There's a second reason, which applies here -- there IS no content > that Google can index, because those files are all bitmap -- no text. > > If there were text files or OCRed PDF files, that would be different, > but as it is, Google will find absolutely nothing. So Al might as > well tell it not to try. Oh right. Heh, I've managed to forget about that part. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 29 13:40:25 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HARD SECTORS on a PC? (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function In-Reply-To: <20040629115156.2ACDE5D3A@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040629115156.2ACDE5D3A@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20040629112353.R14207@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double > density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located > someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to > move it. > My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read > the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and > then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated > by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette > (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a > time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of > an single, double or mixed mode disk. Single/double density is TRIVIAL compared to the fun that you are about to embark on with trying to read and write HARD SECTORED diskettes with a PC! Have you considered the possibility of using the Northstar that HAS the software to make a duplicate copy, and then physically transporting the duplicate diskette to the machine that needs it? Snail mail will get it there eventually. If BOTH Northstars were to be functional (with system software), then you could read the disk on the N*, and transfer it through a serial port. Either directly, or with some PCs and internet in between. But that won't work if the target N* doesn't already have a boot disk/system software. > I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system Then you must be aware of the HARD SECTORED nature. When you become familiar with the PC floppy disk controller, you will find that it is somewhat unwilling to deal with HARD SECTORED formats. Of course, you COULD build, from scratch, an auxiliary floppy disk controller for the PC that accepts HARD SECTORED diskettes. In fact, MicroSolutions once made one! NO, it is NOT the "Compaticard"!! The COpyII option board could be modified to do it, or you could write software to use a CatWeasel. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > running one), however I have never owned the DD controller. > > The N* software manual fairly consistantly refers to SECTORS as either 256 or > 512 byte depending on density, and FILE BLOCKS as 256 bytes - there are two > file blocks to physical sector on the DD controller. > > My question is this: On page4 H-1 of the NorthStar System Software Manual, > the DCOM (Disk Command) subroutine is documented to have these parameters: > ACC=NUMBER OF BLOCKS > B=COMMAND(0=WRITE, 1=READ, 2=VERIFY, -1=SING-INIT -2=DBL-INIT) > C=UNIT NUMBER, Bit7=DOUBLE DENSITY BIT > DE=STARTING RAM ADRESS HL=STARTING DISK ADDRESS > > My concern is that ACC indicates BLOCKS, not SECTORS - does this mean that the DD > controller can read/write 1/2 sectors, must always begin on an even block number, > or is this a typo and it really refers to 512 byte physical SECTORS. > > The question also applies to the HL parameter - is this the starting address in 256 > byte BLOCKS, or 512 byte SECTORS? > > I would have assumed that the low-level command would only work on SECTORS, however > as noted at the beginning of my message, the manual is fairly consistant elseware > to use BLOCKS for 256 byte units, and SECTORS of physical disk units - the use of BLOCKS > here would imply 256 byte logical units. > > This was never an issue on my SD system as BLOCK=SECTOR=256 bytes - both are > interchangable. > > Can anyone with expereience on the N* DD system help clairify this issue? As I do not > have a DD system to test on, it would save me considerable time. > > Thanks, > Dave > -- > dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Vintage computing equipment collector. > http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From bernd at kopriva.de Tue Jun 29 13:44:33 2004 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Need Sritek Baseboard (for NS16032 add-on) ... Message-ID: <20040629190649.2EF053918E@linux.local> I'm the owner of a small NS16032 board, which has to be used together with an ISA baseboard. That stuff has been manufactured by Sritek. There were versions available with 680xx add-ons and NS16032 add-ons (which could be interchanged), and maybe some others ... I want to revive that board, so i'm in need of the baseboard ... ... can anyone help me with this ? Software and/or documentation for the board (either MC680xx or NS16032) is appreciated too ! Thanks alot Bernd From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 29 13:57:39 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted Message-ID: <200406291857.LAA23535@clulw009.amd.com> Hi When I was in the service, I took apart the older type teletypes ( forget the name but the ones with the type boxes ) by following the teletype manual. I've done some minor disassembly, on the ASR33 that I have now, again by following the steps in the manual. I will not be making it to VCFe, unless someone wants to pay my way. Still, I feel that anyone with some level of mechanical competence can follow the manual and do the needed disassembly, cleaning, lubricating and reassembling of one of these units. The ASR33 doesn't need to be disassembled to the smallest screw, just separating the major units. There are a number of places that one needs to set things to specific measurements. For the most part, it is not necessary to undo these setting in order to get the machine apart enough to clean or inspect for bent or broken parts. One should have a set of feeler gages, preferably the wire type, to check that something hasn't slipped. I suspect that Bill's problem is just cleaning and relubricating. When we were in the service, we completely immersed the unit, less the platen, in a cleaner. Since that isn't practical, I'd recommend using something like BrakeClean to remove old oil and grit. This needs to be used in a well ventilated area and the person should wear eye shields. One should try to not have skin contact but this is not as serious because only small amounts are absorbed. It will dry the skin that can cause the skin to crack and bleed. Use oil liberally. We actually used a sprayer in an air hood( don't breath oil particles. This can quickly cause death as anyone that does scuba diving can tell you ). Dwight >From: "Ashley Carder" > >I was thinking the same thing. I heard mention of the word "expert" >earlier, >but I have not seen anyone step forward and admit to being one of those. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Bill Sudbrink" >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 1:54 PM >Subject: RE: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted > > >> David V. Corbin wrote: >> > An ASR-33 rebuild center would be quite cool. What I would bring >> >> The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at all >> those gears and levers" types are going to be there, but none of the >> "I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with one hand tied behind my >> back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. > > > From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 29 14:16:06 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HARD SECTORS on a PC? (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Message-ID: <20040629191606.6DF185DCE@outbox.allstream.net> At 11:40 29/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: >On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double >> density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located >> someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to >> move it. >> My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read >> the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and >> then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated >> by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette >> (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a >> time, and include a density flag for each sector - this will allow copying of >> an single, double or mixed mode disk. > >Single/double density is TRIVIAL compared to the fun that you are >about to embark on with trying to read and write HARD SECTORED >diskettes with a PC! Nobody said anything about reading/writing hard sectored disks on the PC - both parties have a functional N* system - I've already written software to transfer images to/from the my Altair running the N* single-density controller, (same images work under my emulator) and the PC via serial transfer - all I want to do is to update that to support double density - that way both of them can upload/download images to/from the PC, however I don't have the DD controller to test with, hence my request for some clairification regarding some of the finer points which are not explicit in the documentation - basically I have to send it to one of the other involved parties to get them to test it, so I would like to eliminate the variables as much as possible. I've already written a utility which allows me to take a binary N* executable, and transfer it into a N* system by essentially "typeing it" into the N* monitor (which all N* systems have) via the serial port. So - by sending this utility, and a binary of the disk transfer to both parties - they can both move the transfer program unto a n* disk, then use that to read/write diskette images to/from the PC via serial transfer. >Have you considered the possibility of using the Northstar that >HAS the software to make a duplicate copy, and then physically >transporting the duplicate diskette to the machine that needs it? >Snail mail will get it there eventually. Yeah - but that doesn't make it any easier in the future, and it's complicated and slowed by the fact that 10 sector disks are in short supply - the guy making the copy is in the States, and doesn't have any disks to spare. I and the guy needing the copy are in Canada - so for the snail mail technique, I first have to send diskettes to the States (and he has to import them through customs), then he has to send them back to me (and I have to import them through customers). Alternately, I could send him a ZIP containing two PC programs and a N* binary. He uses the first one to put the binary onto his system, then the second one in conjunction with that binary to read the disk images into PC files, which he ZIP's and sends to me). Next time - 1/2 the work is done, and it becomes even simpler. >If BOTH Northstars were to be functional (with system software), >then you could read the disk on the N*, and transfer it through >a serial port. Either directly, or with some PCs and internet >in between. But that won't work if the target N* doesn't already >have a boot disk/system software. Uh yeah (what a good idea :-) - but to do this, I need to understand the details of the double-density use of the N* DCOM function (OS low level disk acccess call) - which is what I asked about (please read earlier post). >> I am very familier with the N* single density controller (and have a system > >Then you must be aware of the HARD SECTORED nature. >When you become familiar with the PC floppy disk controller, >you will find that it is somewhat unwilling to deal with >HARD SECTORED formats. And what makes you think I am not familier the the PC controller (having designed and implemented several 756 based controllers from scratch) - the PeeCee controller has nothing to do with this, which is why I was asking about the N* DCOM function (part of the N* DOS servies, which would be booted on a N* system using the N* disk controller, and are used to read/wrote diskettes using the NORTH START controller). I don't think I mentioned the PC disk controller in my posting. Granted - I did not explicitly say I was doing a serial link, however that is not what I asked about (I have all the info and experience I need to do serial transfers) - I asked about the N* DCOM call, which should have been enough to let you know that what I am trying to do is read/write the disks via the N* DCOM call (ie: N* OS). Refer to my original posting to see that there are a couple of non-obvious things which I'd like to know without having to "try it" remotely a whole bunch of times. >Of course, you COULD build, from scratch, an auxiliary >floppy disk controller for the PC that accepts HARD >SECTORED diskettes. In fact, MicroSolutions once made >one! NO, it is NOT the "Compaticard"!! >The COpyII option board could be modified to do it, >or you could write software to use a CatWeasel. Got an option board - but why bother - both parties have a running N* horizon with DD controller - ie: hardware already exists to read/write the disks. >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com I'll say - did you have an answer to my original questions? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 29 14:44:52 2004 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: not HARD SECTORS on a PC (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function In-Reply-To: <20040629191606.6DF185DCE@outbox.allstream.net> References: <20040629191606.6DF185DCE@outbox.allstream.net> Message-ID: <20040629122339.M14207@newshell.lmi.net> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: > >> My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read > >> the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and > >> then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated > . . . > Nobody said anything about reading/writing hard sectored disks on the PC Sorry for the misinterpretation. "read the disk image into a file on a PC . . . then the other guy can write it out to a diskette" is easily misread as reading/writing on the PC. ... and since you inquired in terms of transferring OS, it implied that the target system was NOT bootable/suitable for file transfer. > Yeah - but that doesn't make it any easier in the future, and it's > complicated and slowed by the fact that 10 sector disks are in short > supply - the guy making the copy is in the States, and doesn't have > any disks to spare. I and the guy needing the copy are in Canada - so > for the snail mail technique, I first have to send diskettes to the > States (and he has to import them through customs), then he has to send > them back to me (and I have to import them through customers). Would you like us to look for some more for you? I gave away my N*, but kept a few hundred diskettes. > Alternately, I could send him a ZIP containing two PC programs and a N* > binary. He uses the first one to put the binary onto his system, then the > second one in conjunction with that binary to read the disk images into > PC files, which he ZIP's and sends to me). > Next time - 1/2 the work is done, and it becomes even simpler. > Uh yeah (what a good idea :-) - but to do this, I need to understand > the details of the double-density use of the N* DCOM function (OS low > level disk acccess call) - which is what I asked about (please read > earlier post). If YOU will re-read your post to understand that it easily implied something other than what you intended. Sorry for the misinterpretation. "read the disk image into a file on a PC . . . then the other guy can write it out to a diskette" is easily misread as reading/writing on the PC. ... and since you inquired in terms of transferring OS, it implied that the target system was NOT bootable/suitable for file transfer. > And what makes you think I am not familier the the PC controller (having > designed and implemented several 756 based controllers from scratch) - the > PeeCee controller has nothing to do with this, which is why I was asking > about the N* DCOM function (part of the N* DOS servies, which would be > booted on a N* system using the N* disk controller, and are used to read/wrote > diskettes using the NORTH START controller). > I don't think I mentioned the PC disk controller in my posting. Sorry for the misinterpretation. "read the disk image into a file on a PC . . . then the other guy can write it out to a diskette" is easily misread as reading/writing on the PC. ... and since you inquired in terms of transferring OS, it implied that the target system was NOT bootable/suitable for file transfer. > Granted - I did not explicitly say I was doing a serial link, however that is > not what I asked about (I have all the info and experience I need to do serial > >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > I'll say - did you have an answer to my original questions? Only for the implicit ones; not for what you intended. Sorry for the misinterpretation. "read the disk image into a file on a PC . . . then the other guy can write it out to a diskette" is easily misread as reading/writing on the PC. > From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 29 15:06:53 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: not HARD SECTORS on a PC (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Message-ID: <20040629200653.F38D51EC3EC@outbox.allstream.net> >Sorry for the misinterpretation. >"read the disk image into a file on a PC . . . >then the other guy can write it out to a diskette" >is easily misread as reading/writing on the PC. >... and since you inquired in terms of transferring >OS, it implied that the target system was NOT bootable/suitable >for file transfer. [Repeated 1/2 dozen times] Perhaps I should repost my question regarding DCOM (the N* OS means of accessing the disk) 1/2 dozen times! As for "transferring OS" - perhaps if YOU had READ that I was interested in transferring CP/M - and was asking about N* disk system calls.... [Shall I repeat that 1/2 dozen times] Do you have any clairification on my original questions regarding the N* DCOM call when used with double density? Don't bother - I already know your answers(s) - and It doesn't look like meaningful discussion will be forthcoming. Cheers, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dwight.elvey at amd.com Tue Jun 29 16:11:19 2004 From: dwight.elvey at amd.com (Dwight K. Elvey) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HARD SECTORS on a PC? (was: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Message-ID: <200406292111.OAA23602@clulw009.amd.com> >From: "Dave Dunfield" > >At 11:40 29/06/2004 -0700, you wrote: >>On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Dave Dunfield wrote: >>> Hi Guys, >>> I am trying to help someone with a NorthStar Horizon that has the double >>> density controller obtain a copy of CP/M for his system. I have located >>> someone with the software - not it's just a matter of figuring out how to >>> move it. >>> My plan is to write a little utility that will allow the one person to read >>> the disk image into a file on a PC which can be transferred by email, and >>> then the other guy can write it out to a diskette - this is somewhat complicated >>> by the fact that NorthStar allows mixed single/double density on a diskette >>> (I don't know if CP/M does this or not) - my idea is to read it a sector at a ---snip--- Hi Dave I have a couple of Horizons and a older style box ( no wood ). I've not had time to fiddle with these but I think the Horizons use the double density controllers. Right now, I'm still fiddling with the H8 machines but the N* was on my list of machines to create a transfer program for. It sounds like you have already done the work here. None of my machine have been powered on since I got them ( at least 2 or 3 years ). It'll be fun turning them on and watching the smoke. I think I have some disk with these but I've not looked to see what I got. Projects, projects and more projects. Dwight From waisun.chia at hp.com Tue Jun 29 13:28:27 2004 From: waisun.chia at hp.com (Wai-Sun Chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: PDP-8/E chassis + PSU (broken) FREE for pickup In-Reply-To: <40E17FDA.6050104@hp.com> References: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> <6.1.2.0.2.20040628175426.02e73980@mail.n.ml.org> <40E17FDA.6050104@hp.com> Message-ID: <40E1B4CB.1070103@hp.com> This chassis has been spoken for. Thanks again for the interest. It's a good feeling to give away stuff that so many people passionately desire. :-) Wai-Sun Chia wrote: > Fellow classiccomputer lovers, > I'm in the position to give away a PDP-8/E bare chassis (no backplane, > no boards/modules, no front panel) and a broken H724 power supply. > > It is only for pickup only. > > I just want the modules and cannot afford to ship the 100+ lbs monster > 12000km to myself. > > Chassis is at San Jose. > > Contact me offline to confirm. > /wai-sun > /wai-sun From dave04a at dunfield.com Tue Jun 29 16:42:49 2004 From: dave04a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: NorthStar Double Density - DOS low level DCOM function Message-ID: <20040629214249.9B0761EC3CA@outbox.allstream.net> >Hi Dave Hi Dwight - seems we have several interests/machines in common. > I have a couple of Horizons and a older style box ( no wood ). I used to have an early Horizon in the blue metal (no wood) box - gave it away years ago, which I regret - would love to be able to build up another one, so if at some point you decide you have too many boxes (metal or wood) - please think of me - I still have a spare SD controller and a few other N* parts. >I've not had time to fiddle with these but I think the Horizons >use the double density controllers. Right now, I'm still fiddling >with the H8 machines but the N* was on my list of machines >to create a transfer program for. It sounds like you have already >done the work here. I wrote a transfer program for the N* SD controller in order to extract the disk images for my Altair simulator (I'm running the N* SD controller in the Altair) - All it needs is a bit of tweaking to allow it to handle DD disks. I've got tons of native software that I wrote for the N* system, and a few other utilities (the PC->N* binary input program I mentioned in previous post, as well as utilities to transfer files directly into and out of N* disk images) - I have no idea how many people are still into N*, but perhaps we should think about creating a pool of resources such as we have for the H8 - If enough people are interested. > None of my machine have been powered on since I got them ( at >least 2 or 3 years ). It'll be fun turning them on and watching >the smoke. I assume you know the right (and wrong) things to do - if not, contact me off-list and I can provide some pointers. > I think I have some disk with these but I've not looked to >see what I got. Projects, projects and more projects. I've got tons of SD software (much of it my own) - and I know a few people running DD horisons - I'm sure we can get you setup with usable software. Btw, in doing my Altair project, I contacted Dr. Charles Grant - the surviving founder of NorthStar, and he granted permission to distrubute and use all of the NorthStar material - I have the SD software and many of the N* manuals posted on my web site. It would be a fairly simple matter to tweak my Altair simulator into a Horizon simulator - mainly removing the front panel support and modifying the I/O map... Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Vintage computing equipment collector. http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Jun 29 16:54:56 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <20040629021925.96725.qmail@web11802.mail.yahoo.com> <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040629175456.00870d10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 07:22 PM 6/29/04 +0100, you wrote: > >In message <3.0.6.32.20040629122610.00906140@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> > "Joe R." wrote: > >> If he tries that then complain to E-bay. They can and will remove >> negative feedback in cases like this. You might also file a complaint with >> the postage authorities in your location and his. If he has a business you >> can also file complaints with the Better Business Bureau (or the >> equivilent) and law enforcement. >He's just emailed me to say that he's got some pods, grabber tips and cables >due in at some point in the next week or so. Good! Just don't let him drag it out past the deadline to file negative feedback and/or complaints to E-bay and others. Has the stuff that I sent arrived yet? Joe In the meantime, I've used a bit >of solid-core wire and a few 100K resistors to check the analyser. It's a >bodge, but it seems to work fine at low frequencies. > >Later. >-- >Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, >philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, >http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI >... "Shhh! The Christians think they are up here alone."..God > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 16:57:01 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <001201c45d8c$7fc3a7b0$0500fea9@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Jun 28, 4 11:52:28 pm Message-ID: > The 91% solution would be the same found in the cheap cassette tape cleaning > kits I assume. I believe so, although I have a spray can of what claims to be 99+% propan-2-ol that I use for head cleaning. > > The reason I brought this up is because a few days ago I started backing up > some vintage Mac software on my 840AV 68k Mac and it had a problem with a > few disks, so I switched to my IIfx (same type of drives) and it read those > disks no problem. I figured that the 840av disk drive just needed a bit of > cleaning since it has been reliable before the last incident. I don't think True story (although I am ashamed to admit it). I was sorting out a Commodore 8250LP (slimline model, double sided drives). And I could not get a reliable read signal. I checked all the components in the head amplifier, the head switching diodes, the head select signals, and so on. I then remembered to clean the heads. Worked fine after that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 16:58:47 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Jun 28, 4 09:45:01 pm Message-ID: > > If the drive will reformat a pack and will then pass the read/write > > diagnostic using it, then the only problem with the drive is alignment. > > Of course, it is possible that the pack could have been written to > by an out of alignment drive and his drive is OK. Correct. What I should have said is that only when the drive will format and read/write to a pack do you consider alignment. At that point I'd put an alignment pack in and see what the catseye pattern looked like. If it was fine, then I'd assume the packs I couldn't read had been written on a misaligned drive. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:04:25 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RX02 115VAC/60Hz -> 230VAC/50Hz In-Reply-To: <40E1186B.4030909@hp.com> from "Wai-Sun Chia" at Jun 29, 4 03:21:15 pm Message-ID: > > Hello list, > I have the possibility of acquiring a RX02-BA 115VAC/60Hz standard North > American power. I have a couple of questions concerning the feasibility > of a power conversion on it. It is _very_ non-trivial > > After studying the schematics of H771 of the RX01/02 units and the > manual, there are 4 things to do for a power conversion: > > 1. Replace H771-A with H771-C or H771-D. > 2. Replace power harness > 3. Replace belt and pulley > 4. Replace circuit breaker > > Here my questions: > 1. From the schematics, the difference in H771-A and H771-C or -D is the > transformer has no center tap on the US supply. Does this mean that > there's no way for a DIY conversion job? Or it just mean that the > transformer does have a center tap and it's just unwired? There's rahter more to it than that. IIRC the transformer in the is PSU is a ferroresonant type, and provides part of the voltage stabilisation. There's an extra winding on the transformer connected to a capacitor, and that resonates at some harmonic of the mains frequency. You can't even run this PSU off a step down trnasformer if the mains frequency is different. What this means is that the transformer is different between 50Hz and 60Hz models. Unlike some other PSUs, I don't think there are extra taps on the auxilliary winding which are used to switch between mains frequencies. The good news is that the PSU is the same on RX01s and RX02s so you might be able to find a 50Hz one. > > 2. Power harness is no big deal, I can just make a new one. > > 3. Belt and pulley; this is the tough one. Calling UK list members: > anybody has spares? Err, bit of metal rod (stainless steel?) and a lathe? Presumably the motor will now run at 5/6ths the speed it would have run at in the States and therefore you need a pulley 6/5ths the size of the one that's there. > > 4. Can the circuit breaker still be bought in electrical/electronics > supply stores? If you get a 50Hz spec PSU, it will have the right breaker built in. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:09:05 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 29, 4 08:23:38 am Message-ID: > > My Tek 1230 is definitely plain old IDC, and that > > model is worth up to and including nothing without the > > probes. Probes are $400+ (without the grabbers!). I > > have 3 and have turned down an offer for $300 for one > > of them. > Just out of curiosity, what's the speed rating of your 1230? My HP 1651B can > do 25MHz state and 100MHz timing. My first logic analyer, which I still use if I need more than 3 channels, was a Gould K100D. It came without pods, but I did get the service manual. The inputs to the analyser were differential ECL signals. I wired up some 10124 (TTL-ECL translators) to make a TTL input pod for it, cabled up with IDC cable. I've never tried it at 100MHz, but it works fine at lower frequencies (e.g. to trace PERQ microcode, etc). > I suppose I can always try IDC cable. It's not exactly expensive stuff and > there's a good chance of it actually working. If I can't get any HP probes My guess it that it will work, but you probably won't be able to run at the specified maximum speed. > and the seller won't refund me for the analyser, it's always an option. My expeirience is that for classic computer work, any logic analyser, even a 10MHz one, is a lot better than nothing, provided you know what it can and cna't do. In other words, I'd be inclined to make up kludge-pods for this analyser and at least try it out. I don't know what machines you normally work on, but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit micros, HP calculators (including desktops), and so on -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:16:55 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <20040629101152.09161755.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Jun 29, 4 10:11:52 am Message-ID: > What is nichrome? A Nickel-Chromium (and other things?) alloy, used to make resistance wire. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 16:54:03 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 28, 4 11:19:54 pm Message-ID: > When I received the drives, I took the cover off and looked > inside. They appear to be very clean. There are tags on both > drives that indicate that they passed a maintenance check in > 1997. I have applied power to both drives. The toggle switches > all seem to work and the appropriate lights come on. OK, the power supply is probably fine, but it can't hurt to check the voltages... Also make sure the blower is running (and is not smoking -- these motors, particularly in the 230V version -- suffer from insulation breakdown which can be spectacular!). Check for airflow at the duct on the left side of the baseplate, just to make sure there;s not a complete blockage somewhere. > > I have the various RK05 technical manuals and an RK05 maintenance > course for field engineers. I have started looking at these > documents. > > Once I hook up the drives to the RK11 controller on the 11/40 > or 11/34, what would be the steps involved in testing these drives > and getting them up and running if they're mechanically sound? > They were shipped from Ohio to South Carolina. I do not want to > destroy the heads the first time I put a pack in the drives. Turn off the positioner (there's a swtick on the servo amplifier PCB on top of the PSU for this -- IIRC you put it down to disable the positioner). Power up, put a pack in, and switch to run. Check the motor starts and that everything seems to be runing correctly. Spin down, enable the positioner again, pray to the patron saint of old computers [1], spin up and keep you hand on the load swtich. Wait for the heads to load, If you get unpleasant noises, spin down at once. Assuming the heads load correctly, then try running some kind of diagnostics, or attempt to boot an OS (if you have a bootable OS on an RK05 pack). When I got my first RK05, I was really worried about headcrashes. As it turned out, thr drive was fine, but I had a long job tracing logic faults in the RK11-C (rows fo flip-chip cards) controller... [1] This is presumably St Chad of Hackforth [2] :-) [2] I believe thrre is a St Chad. And there's certainly a place in England called Hackforth. AFAIK the 2 have no connection, but the names have obvious meanings to old computer hackers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:23:18 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jun 29, 4 10:50:28 am Message-ID: > I would like to recruit 3 or 4 knowledgeable and highly motivated > classiccmpers (motivated by the prospect of DINNER and BEER on me) > at VCF East to completely tear down, clean, adjust, lubricate and Just to warn you. I did my first ASR33 when I was still at school, without any manuals. And yes I did take it totally apart, cleaned it, oiled it, and adjusted it by feel. It took me 2 weeks. Now admittedly I was only working evenings and weekends (as I said I was at school), but I doubt anyone could do it in the 'spare' time during VCF (and having more people is probably not an advantage -- in my experience it's a lot better to have one person who knows exactly what to do). > suggest) busily scrubbing parts as they are handed to me. With four > guys and one scrubber, could this be accomplished in a couple of > hours? I doubt it. My 'record' time for stripping an ASR33 into modules is under 5 minutes (!), but I don't think I could strip and reassemble/adjust even the carriage in a couple of hours. Not and get it perfect anyway. > 3) I'm a gutless wimp. If I get it apart, I'm not sure I could get > it all back together, even with the docs. I have original prints > of some of the docs and the rest in electronic form. Look, I did my first one about 20 years ago with no manuals and no mailing lists to help. If I can do it, anyone can! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:28:10 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: Teaching assembler In-Reply-To: <40E1A2BB.4040508@citem.org> from "Hans B PUFAL" at Jun 29, 4 07:11:23 pm Message-ID: > In our opinion, however, the most useful function served by a > knowledge of assembler > language programming is to give the user a much closer awareness of > how the computer > works, as well as inestimably greater control over its workings, than > is feasible with > a higher level language. In our experience, the higher level language > user who is > familiar with assembler language is a more efficient - even happier - > programmer than > one who is not. I would definitely agree with that. Even though most of the (little) programming I do now is in C, I am still darn glad I learnt assembler and machine code. I think it makes me a slightly better programmer. And I can't imagine a good computer hardware designer who doesn't understand assembler! > Those readers who want to proceed further, particularly into systems > programming, will be > ready after reading this book to refer to the manuals. A warning > should be given that much > less care goes into [the] preparation of the descriptive literature > than into the machine > itself and its software, and the manuals contain many obscurities and > errors. The PERQ POS manuals are a classic example of this. They're great at reminding you of the details (the exact arguments to a system routine, etc) if you already understand things, but they're really obscure if you don't. It took me a long time to figure out some bits of those manuals... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:30:12 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jun 29, 4 01:54:00 pm Message-ID: > The problem so far seems to be that all of us "Wow! Look at all > those gears and levers" types are going to be there, but none of the > "I can assemble an ASR33 from parts, with one hand tied behind my > back, blindfolded, in a snowstorm" will be. I won't be at VCF (how the heck could I afford it...), so the point is moot, but I am wondering if I could assemble an ASR33 one-handed by feel alone, Actually I doubt I could, and I certainly couldn't do it in 2 hours... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 17:33:30 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: <40E1B494.4070903@citem.org> from "Hans B PUFAL" at Jun 29, 4 08:27:32 pm Message-ID: > > Dan Veeneman wrote: > > > Maybe we should all pitch in to fly Tony in from the UK > > and make it worth his while to serve as repair foreman. ROFL... > > However, I'm not sure anything short of an HP 9100B would > > be enough to get him to attend... Nah, I've got a couple of those (seriously). You'd have to make it some machine that I want and don't already have :-) > > Your prayer are answered. I have a 9100 in need of Tony's > help. All you need is to fly me and my 9100 from France ;-) And I certainly am not attending just to _fix_ a 9100. I've done both of mine (and in the process produced schematics...) They're interesting to work on, but there are other things I'd also like to pull to bits sometime... In your case, presumably it would be cheaper for you to bring your 9100 to England (where I am) anyway... -tony From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Jun 29 18:46:23 2004 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: wang stuff In-Reply-To: <004501c45e01$142eb4c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Jay West wrote: > Was googling for something else and came across this... thought I'd post for > the wang people here... > > http://home.wxs.nl/~janvdv/wang/boards_and_manuals.htm > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > Just about deleted this based on the spam like subject.... Peter Wallace From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jun 29 18:48:46 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > My guess it that it will work, but you probably won't be able to run at > the specified maximum speed. That's what I thought. > My expeirience is that for classic computer work, any logic analyser, > even a 10MHz one, is a lot better than nothing, provided you know what it > can and cna't do. Well, in this case, I'm still trying to get the hang of the front panel controls on the 1651B. The badly-OCRed copy of the Getting Started Guide I've got is just about usable, but a lot of the OCR errors are subtle - changing commands and suchlike in non-obvious ways. I'll probably buy a manual later, but the manual comes after the pods and cable kit on my list of priorities. Speaking of manuals, I've got the service manual for the 1652B - no schematics, just a boardswapping guide. Yecch. > In other words, I'd be inclined to make up kludge-pods for this analyser > and at least try it out. I've got it hooked up to a PICmicro development board - it's rigged up to the 1-wire bus output. At least I know Pod 1 bit 0 works - now to test the other 31... > I don't know what machines you normally work on, 8-bit micros mainly. 6502, 8080, Z80, that sort of thing. I was going to get one of the 80-channel HP analysers, but I decided I didn't need to probe that many lines at once - I don't do much work on 16- and 32-bit CPUs. > but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit micros, HP calculators > (including desktops), and so on If I need an 80 channel analyser, I'll probably build my own - it can't be that hard to shove a bunch of FIFOs and an oscillator on an ISA-bus card, then write some software to drive it. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... 640K ought to be enough for anybody. - Bill Gates From wacarder at usit.net Tue Jun 29 19:12:00 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony, I very much appreciate all the helpful hints and advice. I will print off this email and keep it with my drives. I should be able to hook them up to a pdp 11 in the next month or two, when I get my RK11 controller. At that time I will closely follow your words of wisdom. Can you tell me more about St. Chad, etc? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 5:54 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) > When I received the drives, I took the cover off and looked > inside. They appear to be very clean. There are tags on both > drives that indicate that they passed a maintenance check in > 1997. I have applied power to both drives. The toggle switches > all seem to work and the appropriate lights come on. OK, the power supply is probably fine, but it can't hurt to check the voltages... Also make sure the blower is running (and is not smoking -- these motors, particularly in the 230V version -- suffer from insulation breakdown which can be spectacular!). Check for airflow at the duct on the left side of the baseplate, just to make sure there;s not a complete blockage somewhere. > > I have the various RK05 technical manuals and an RK05 maintenance > course for field engineers. I have started looking at these > documents. > > Once I hook up the drives to the RK11 controller on the 11/40 > or 11/34, what would be the steps involved in testing these drives > and getting them up and running if they're mechanically sound? > They were shipped from Ohio to South Carolina. I do not want to > destroy the heads the first time I put a pack in the drives. Turn off the positioner (there's a swtick on the servo amplifier PCB on top of the PSU for this -- IIRC you put it down to disable the positioner). Power up, put a pack in, and switch to run. Check the motor starts and that everything seems to be runing correctly. Spin down, enable the positioner again, pray to the patron saint of old computers [1], spin up and keep you hand on the load swtich. Wait for the heads to load, If you get unpleasant noises, spin down at once. Assuming the heads load correctly, then try running some kind of diagnostics, or attempt to boot an OS (if you have a bootable OS on an RK05 pack). When I got my first RK05, I was really worried about headcrashes. As it turned out, thr drive was fine, but I had a long job tracing logic faults in the RK11-C (rows fo flip-chip cards) controller... [1] This is presumably St Chad of Hackforth [2] :-) [2] I believe thrre is a St Chad. And there's certainly a place in England called Hackforth. AFAIK the 2 have no connection, but the names have obvious meanings to old computer hackers. -tony From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 29 19:08:35 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000901c45e36$63330730$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > [2] I believe thrre is a St Chad. Unless my school and the cathedral in Birmingham (UK) both erred, then there certainly is. > And there's certainly a place in > England called Hackforth. AFAIK the 2 have no connection, but > the names > have obvious meanings to old computer hackers. Indeed. Although when I was in school (UK school, not US university) Chad was that little head and fingers of each hand that peeped over a brick wall. It may also have been something to do with some drinking straws promotion that someone connected with the milk industry ran for a while. Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 29 19:12:31 2004 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c45e36$efcf6d50$5b01a8c0@flexpc> > Can you tell me more about St. Chad, etc? http://www.saintchads.org.uk/stchad.htm Antonio -- --------------- Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Jun 29 15:30:39 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: todays auction finds: A motorola qbus cpu ?? Message-ID: <40E1D16F.4030809@theriver.com> Interesting day at the auction. The Data General Aviion 9500+ went for a whopping $17.00. The pallet of ultrasparc's went for $300, (way over my budget), but I walked out with a pdp11/73 in a BA11 case. And the mystery box. A black DEC BA11-m case with a dark camo-green panel and 3 qbus cards, a DRV11-b, a dual qbus card with two 20 pin berg connectors. No I.D. except for the stencil EXTREL 500869 C-81, I have no idea maybe a floppy controller or a serial card. And finally A Quad height Qbus board with a Motorolla MC68000l12 processor and a paper label at the bottom of the board that says: 590139 BUS CPU REV A EXTREL 2MHZ It also has 2 Zilog Z80 chips a Z80B CTC and a Z80 UART So is this a motorola 68K Qbus board?? Can Anybody enlighten me. Any documentation, a quick google search found very little .It probably was part of a instrument that was sold in another lot. I picked this one up as I spotted the ba-11 qbus box. Cheers Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From tradde at excite.com Tue Jun 29 19:57:46 2004 From: tradde at excite.com (Tim) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:57 2005 Subject: RK05 format program Message-ID: <20040630005746.8BF173CFD@xprdmailfe4.nwk.excite.com> Thanks for the info on formatting an RK05 disk. I guess I did not know this was possible. Does anyone happen to have the program to do the actual format? I use Dave Gesswein's dumprest to load code from a PC to my 8f. That program is not part of the package. I don't think I have ever seen it, but may have overlooked it while browsing the main pdp-8 sites. Thanks. It would be great if that's all I had to do to make the disks useful again. Tim R. _______________________________________________ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Jun 29 15:42:50 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: todays auction finds: A motorola qbus cpu ?? In-Reply-To: <40E1D16F.4030809@theriver.com> References: <40E1D16F.4030809@theriver.com> Message-ID: <40E1D44A.1040702@theriver.com> OOPS, that should have read 12MHZ. It also has two 34 pin connectors and one 20 pin connector that apparently is the serial out. tom Tom Ponsford wrote: > Interesting day at the auction. > > The Data General Aviion 9500+ went for a whopping $17.00. The pallet of > ultrasparc's went for $300, (way over my budget), but I walked out with > a pdp11/73 in a BA11 case. > > And the mystery box. A black DEC BA11-m case with a dark camo-green > panel and 3 qbus cards, a DRV11-b, a dual qbus card with two 20 pin berg > connectors. No I.D. except for the stencil EXTREL 500869 C-81, I have no > idea maybe a floppy controller or a serial card. > > And finally A Quad height Qbus board with a Motorolla MC68000l12 > processor and a paper label at the bottom of the board that says: > > 590139 > BUS CPU > REV A > EXTREL 2MHZ > > It also has 2 Zilog Z80 chips a > Z80B CTC and a > Z80 UART > > So is this a motorola 68K Qbus board?? > > Can Anybody enlighten me. Any documentation, a quick google search > found very little .It probably was part of a instrument that was sold in > another lot. > I picked this one up as I spotted the ba-11 qbus box. > > Cheers > > Tom -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Jun 29 18:06:01 2004 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys In-Reply-To: <40DF2B53.7CD94138@rain.org> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20040629153255.034dd130@pop-server.socal.rr.com> At 01:17 PM 6/27/04 -0700, Marvin Johnston wrote: >I just found out about a new type of battery charger called the >BatteryMinder that will (it is claimed) rejuvenate Lead/Acid batteries >that are dead due to sulphating. A friend of mine used one on a battery >that had been totally discharged for too long, and was able to recover >it. He sent me a 12v one and I am looking around for some batteries to >try it out ... like a couple of dozen Sharp PC-5000 lead/acid batteries >:). If this works on *old* lead acid batteries, I will be one happy >camper :)! > >If anyone is curious, their web site is at: >http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder.htm It smells like a scam, ie very expensive, so I went and read the patent. Curious stuff. The basic idea has been around for a bit, this patent is for a refinement/variation. Sulphate crystals resonate at 3.26 mhz, and apparently if you "hit" them with pulses around an amp that contain enough energy at that frequency the crystals break up and go back into solution. Older techniques used oscillators and transformers, and apparently were not dual function, ie they knocked off crystals, but lacked basic bulk charging circuits. This design has a dual function, simple bulk recharge, then the pulse mode to keep it charged and whack the sulphates. Pulse mode is a 20 khz apparently variable width 1 amp pulse with edges tailored to hit the magic 3.26 mhz. Let us know how it works and don't forget to put a scope on it. From aek at spies.com Tue Jun 29 20:39:50 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: RK05 format program Message-ID: <20040630013950.718103C15@spies.com> http://home.t-online.de/home/bernhard.baehr/pdp8e/MAINDECs/MAINDEC-08-DHRKD-A-PB the writup is atŠ http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=82 From sastevens at earthlink.net Tue Jun 29 20:44:41 2004 From: sastevens at earthlink.net (Scott Stevens) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20040629204441.12c8daeb.sastevens@earthlink.net> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:48:46 +0100 Philip Pemberton wrote: > In message > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > My guess it that it will work, but you probably won't be able to run > > at the specified maximum speed. > That's what I thought. > > > My expeirience is that for classic computer work, any logic > > analyser, even a 10MHz one, is a lot better than nothing, provided > > you know what it can and cna't do. > Well, in this case, I'm still trying to get the hang of the front > panel controls on the 1651B. The badly-OCRed copy of the Getting > Started Guide I've got is just about usable, but a lot of the OCR > errors are subtle - changing commands and suchlike in non-obvious > ways. I'll probably buy a manual later, but the manual comes after the > pods and cable kit on my list of priorities. > Speaking of manuals, I've got the service manual for the 1652B - no > schematics, just a boardswapping guide. Yecch. A few years back I remember reading on a list somewhere that HP's (Agilents?) web/ftp archive of documents related to test equipment of this type was soon to go offline. I recall mirroring a ton of it that I have stuck away on a set of CDR disks somewhere. I think it was 3-5 CDs that I archived at that time. Specifically I remember it having a lot of the 1630/1650/16500 materials. I may have the manuals you want on a CD here. Reply if you're interested. I probably can't put this all 'up' on a site for everybody as it would have to be cleared by HP for such use/distribution. I am the proud owner of an HP1630G with pods. I have used the 1650 and 16500 on occasion professionally. I earlier had one of the earlier 16xx analyzers and took a stab at one point at making my own pods for it. It was much slower than the 1650 tho. I'm surprised that nobody has made replicating these pods in some fashion into a published project somewhere. It seems like a worthy design effort that many people would benefit from. > > > In other words, I'd be inclined to make up kludge-pods for this > > analyser and at least try it out. > I've got it hooked up to a PICmicro development board - it's rigged up > to the 1-wire bus output. At least I know Pod 1 bit 0 works - now to > test the other 31... > > > I don't know what machines you normally work on, > 8-bit micros mainly. 6502, 8080, Z80, that sort of thing. I was going > to get one of the 80-channel HP analysers, but I decided I didn't need > to probe that many lines at once - I don't do much work on 16- and > 32-bit CPUs. > > > but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit micros, HP > > calculators (including desktops), and so on > If I need an 80 channel analyser, I'll probably build my own - it > can't be that hard to shove a bunch of FIFOs and an oscillator on an > ISA-bus card, then write some software to drive it. > > Later. > -- > Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, > 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT > Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, > ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI... 640K ought to be enough for anybody. - Bill > Gates From cmcnabb at gmail.com Tue Jun 29 20:44:30 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Rejuvinating Lead/Acid Batterys In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20040629153255.034dd130@pop-server.socal.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040627144006.0086cbb0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.0.20040629153255.034dd130@pop-server.socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <145cecdd04062918441125fce9@mail.gmail.com> I've been reading these messages about reducing the effects of oversulfation for the past few days and thought I'd throw in my two cents. While serving on nuclear submarines in the US Navy (during the 80s), I was sent to the Navy's Battery School. A lot of time was spent discussing sulfation, which is a normal part of discharging a battery. Oversulfation, which is what I think is being discussed here, is caused by under-charging the battery. Fully charging a battery after a discharge is the best way to prevent oversulfation. The best way of reversing oversulfation, once it has occured, is to perform an equalizing battery charge, which is described (sort of) here: http://www.usbr.gov/power/data/fist/fist3_6/fist3602.htm#sec2.24 The thing a lot of people don't realize is that the charge/discharge cycle in itself wears down the plates (they form cracks due to heating/cooling and lead or lead-oxide starts to flake off). This is why batteries are rated for a maximum number of charges/discharges. Trying to keep a battery going after this design life is usually a losing battle. From aek at spies.com Tue Jun 29 20:57:12 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: todays auction finds:A motorola qbus cpu ?? Message-ID: <20040630015712.778053C15@spies.com> > So is this a motorola 68K Qbus board?? -- There were a few companies that made Qbus 68k systems, including Cadmus and Integrated Solutions, mostly running some version of Unix. The ISI board used a DART and CTC, and has a SUN style mmu. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 29 21:48:10 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: todays auction finds: A motorola qbus cpu ?? In-Reply-To: <40E1D16F.4030809@theriver.com> References: <40E1D16F.4030809@theriver.com> Message-ID: <20040630024810.GD16551@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 01:30:39PM -0700, Tom Ponsford wrote: > And finally A Quad height Qbus board with a Motorolla MC68000l12 processor > and a paper label at the bottom of the board that says: > > 590139 > BUS CPU > REV A > EXTREL 2MHZ > > It also has 2 Zilog Z80 chips a > Z80B CTC and a > Z80 UART > > So is this a motorola 68K Qbus board?? I don't recall anything about "Extrel", but unless this card was at the top of the bus, it was a peripheral card, not the primary CPU (you have to put the CPU at the top because boards "above" the CPU wouldn't be able to break the grant chain for interrupts or DMA requests). The Software Results COMBOARD was a peripheral for the Unibus, Qbus or VAXBI bus with a 68000 (or 68010) on it. Since we spoke sync protocols out the serial port(s), we had either a COM5025 or a Zilog Z8530, so seeing a Z80-family UART on this board isn't all that strange. IIRC, the DMB32 has a 68000 as well. The other peripheral CPU I've commonly seen is the T-11 - DEC used it on several cards, as did Simpact (a Software Results competitor). I even have a Simpact card, but no software. So what sorts of connectors are coming off the top of the board? 40-pin Berg connectors were commonly used for serial ports (DL11E, DUP11, DUV11...) but with a 3rd party board, there's no standard. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jun-2004 02:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.3 F (-67.4 C) Windchill -129.4 F (-89.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 082 Barometer 670.1 mb (11001. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Jun 29 17:37:04 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: todays auction finds:A motorola qbus cpu ?? In-Reply-To: <20040630015712.778053C15@spies.com> References: <20040630015712.778053C15@spies.com> Message-ID: <40E1EF10.7060504@theriver.com> This could be a rebadged IS board, the maker says EXTREL On closer inspection the 2 Zilog chips: 28 pin Zilog Z843QBPS Z80B CTC 8548 40 pin: Zilog Z847QPBS Z80 DART 8609 also has two 24 pin eprom in a 29 pin socket top: IS MACS Qbus 750123-03 12 Rev A L MHZ below: IS MACS QBUS 750123-01 REV A H is there any documentation on the ISI board Cheers Tom Al Kossow wrote: > > So is this a motorola 68K Qbus board?? > > > -- > > There were a few companies that made Qbus 68k systems, including > Cadmus and Integrated Solutions, mostly running some version of Unix. > > The ISI board used a DART and CTC, and has a SUN style mmu. > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 29 22:02:08 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: todays auction finds:A motorola qbus cpu ?? In-Reply-To: <20040630015712.778053C15@spies.com> References: <20040630015712.778053C15@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040630030208.GF16551@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 06:57:12PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > So is this a motorola 68K Qbus board?? > > -- > > There were a few companies that made Qbus 68k systems, including > Cadmus and Integrated Solutions, mostly running some version of Unix. > > The ISI board used a DART and CTC, and has a SUN style mmu. I've also seen an i486 on a dual-height Qbus card, but it was definitely not for the general purpose market... it was in CompuServe's X.25 boxes as a replacement (up/down-grade?) for a PDP-11 processor. In the last Qbus incarnation of these systems, they put 3 9-slot Qbus backplanes in one (big) rackmount enclosure, along with 3 power supplies, 3 halt buttons, 3 run lights, and a wad of custom serial cards. I have one of these enclosures at home, but no proprietary cards. Someday, I plan on putting 3 independent systems in there, running 3 different OSes (RT-11, 2BSD, and one other, haven't decided what). I might even be able to get away with putting 3.5" ST-506 drives inside the case and running them off of the internal PSUs, presuming I don't load these guys up with cards. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jun-2004 02:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.5 F (-67.5 C) Windchill -130.2 F (-90.09 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.4 kts Grid 089 Barometer 670.1 mb (11001. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dvcorbin at optonline.net Tue Jun 29 22:10:04 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: VCF East, ASR33 help wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hmmm, looks like London/Boston can be booked for about $700US. If we could just get enough ASR-33's in need of a tune up From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Tue Jun 29 22:08:33 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: wang stuff In-Reply-To: References: <004501c45e01$142eb4c0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <20040630030833.GG16551@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 04:46:23PM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Just about deleted this based on the spam like subject.... Is that like the proposed name for Wang's Customer Service department? "Wang Cares" (sound it out and think Queen's English). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jun-2004 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.8 F (-67.7 C) Windchill -129.7 F (-89.90 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10 kts Grid 086 Barometer 670 mb (11005. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 22:21:35 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 30, 4 00:48:46 am Message-ID: > > I don't know what machines you normally work on, > 8-bit micros mainly. 6502, 8080, Z80, that sort of thing. I was going to get > one of the 80-channel HP analysers, but I decided I didn't need to probe that > many lines at once - I don't do much work on 16- and 32-bit CPUs. In which case I suspect this analyser with kludged pods will be good enough. > > > but I suspect it would be easily enough for 8 bit micros, HP calculators > > (including desktops), and so on > If I need an 80 channel analyser, I'll probably build my own - it can't be > that hard to shove a bunch of FIFOs and an oscillator on an ISA-bus card, That's what the Elektor analyser consisted of..... > then write some software to drive it. FWIW, I do a lot of my work with a 3 channel logic analyser (HP LogicDart), and I find that to be enough. Often all I need to look at is one signal against an enable or something like that. Actually, a single-channel analyser is sometimes enough. -tony From tponsford at theriver.com Tue Jun 29 18:14:34 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: todays auction finds: A motorola qbus cpu ?? In-Reply-To: <20040630024810.GD16551@bos7.spole.gov> References: <40E1D16F.4030809@theriver.com> <20040630024810.GD16551@bos7.spole.gov> Message-ID: <40E1F7DA.4050603@theriver.com> Hi All Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > I don't recall anything about "Extrel", but unless this card was at the > top of the bus, it was a peripheral card, not the primary CPU (you have > to put the CPU at the top because boards "above" the CPU wouldn't be able > to break the grant chain for interrupts or DMA requests). The board was at the top of the bus. I'm pretty sure this is not a peripheral board. The fact that it says on a paper label "QBUS CPU" lead me to beleive this is the primary cpu board. > > > So what sorts of connectors are coming off the top of the board? 40-pin > Berg connectors were commonly used for serial ports (DL11E, DUP11, DUV11...) > but with a 3rd party board, there's no standard. One 20 pin and two 34 pin connectors The board looks like it also contains a small amount of ram. Cheers Tom . > -ethan > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 22:24:33 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: from "Ashley Carder" at Jun 29, 4 08:12:00 pm Message-ID: > > Tony, > > I very much appreciate all the helpful hints and advice. No problem... > I will print off this email and keep it with my drives. I > should be able to hook them up to a pdp 11 in the next month > or two, when I get my RK11 controller. At that time I will > closely follow your words of wisdom. > > Can you tell me more about St. Chad, etc? It was a joke, OK :-) St Chad did esist, I just picked the name because of the obvious connection with that byproduct of storing data... Hackforth is a real place, it also describes what I do on my HP71. It seemed like an obvious name for the patron saint of old comptuers. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jun 29 23:05:50 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: wang stuff In-Reply-To: <20040630030833.GG16551@bos7.spole.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 30, 4 03:08:33 am" Message-ID: <200406300405.VAA17054@floodgap.com> > > Just about deleted this based on the spam like subject.... > > Is that like the proposed name for Wang's Customer Service department? > > "Wang Cares" > > (sound it out and think Queen's English). ROFL!!! Trainspotting: "We can't even find a decent culture to be colonised BY!" -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- Our way is peace. -- Septimus, Son worshipper, Star Trek "Bread & Circuses" From donm at cts.com Tue Jun 29 23:44:09 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: RK05 stuff (was RE: cctalk Digest, Vol 10, Issue 74) In-Reply-To: <000901c45e36$63330730$5b01a8c0@flexpc> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > [2] I believe thrre is a St Chad. > > Unless my school and the cathedral in Birmingham (UK) > both erred, then there certainly is. > > > And there's certainly a place in > > England called Hackforth. AFAIK the 2 have no connection, but > > the names > > have obvious meanings to old computer hackers. > > Indeed. Although when I was in school (UK school, > not US university) Chad was that little head > and fingers of each hand that peeped over a > brick wall. Here in the colonies, IIRC, he was named "Kilroy". Rather popular around the time of WWII. - don > It may also have been something to do with some > drinking straws promotion that someone connected > with the milk industry ran for a while. > > > Antonio > > -- > > --------------- > > Antonio Carlini arcarlini@iee.org > > > > > From aek at spies.com Wed Jun 30 00:17:24 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: ISI 68K Qbus board Message-ID: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> > is there any documentation on the ISI board www.bitsavers.org/pdf/isi/IS68K_Qbus_Mar84.pdf if you decide not to keep it, please keep me in mind. From KParker at workcover.com Tue Jun 29 20:17:11 2004 From: KParker at workcover.com (Parker, Kevin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Copy of NetWare 3.1x Message-ID: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623621086@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> I haven't looked but I thought a while ago I saw legacy stuff on Novell's site. +++++++++++++++++++ Kevin Parker Web Services Manager WorkCover Corporation p: 08 8233 2548 e: webmaster@workcover.com w: www.workcover.com +++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul Berger Sent: Wednesday, 30 June 2004 3:28 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Copy of NetWare 3.1x Anybody have suggestions as to where I can find a copy of Netware 3.11 or 3.12 for a project I'm working on? Thanks and regards, Paul ************************************************************************ This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any copies. ************************************************************************ From hansp at citem.org Wed Jun 30 01:21:30 2004 From: hansp at citem.org (Hans B PUFAL) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Philip Pemberton wrote: >There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on Ebay at the >moment, well, at least there's nothing that's available to the UK. Plenty of >probe kits available USA-only though... > > I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they are unable to see the advantages of selling internationally. Yesterday I decided to see about buying a new laptop. Having chosen the model I searched on Froogle and found well over 100 hits. I contacted the 5 cheapest to ask if they would ship internationally - four replied NO. The one positive response was also the cheapest so they get the order! The eBay "will ship to only" is something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping and that might put them off but why shut them out completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment cannot be that great, at least it isn't in my experience here in Europe. So this leads me to propose that we set up staging addresses in the States (and any other country for that matter). For a small fee participants would agree to receive and transship packages for other members on the opposite side of the world. I would be happy to offer my services in that regard. -- HansP From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jun 30 01:34:54 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Message-ID: <000601c45e6c$5b7b4260$2201a8c0@finans> From: "Hans B PUFAL" > So this leads me to propose that we set up staging addresses in the > States (and any other country for that matter). For > a small fee participants would agree to receive and transship packages > for other members on the opposite side of the world. > I would be happy to offer my services in that regard. > And so would I (located in Denmark) Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.709 / Virus Database: 465 - Release Date: 22-06-2004 From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 01:26:11 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Message-ID: <200406300636.CAA22937@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > The eBay "will ship to only" is > something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential market? An > international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping and that > might put them off but why shut them out completely? The extra > hassle of an international shipment cannot be that great, at least it > isn't in my experience here in Europe. Europe is civilized. Europeans understand that the world is a patchwork of many countries and many societies and are prepared to deal with that. The US is not so lucky. Yes, there are plenty of people in the US who are internationalized - but there are a depressing number to whom the world (apparently) consists of the US plus assorted debris not worth bothering with. An overseas buyer yes, is perceived as "just one o' dem furriners", and the potential market is seen as so small as to be not worth the hassle. (The problematic people most likely have never even tried to ship internationally and perceive the hassle as far greater than it actually is. I'm talking about the sort of person who thinks of euros as play money because they're colourful instead of being "good honest greenbacks".) It's a baffling mindset to wrap your head around if you're not trapped in it yourself. But I've become convinced that something very much like it is all too real. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nico at farumdata.dk Wed Jun 30 01:58:47 2004 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <200406300636.CAA22937@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <000a01c45e6f$b166c660$2201a8c0@finans> From: "der Mouse" > > The eBay "will ship to only" is > > something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential market? An > > international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping and that > > might put them off but why shut them out completely? The extra > > hassle of an international shipment cannot be that great, at least it > > isn't in my experience here in Europe. We see a bit of the same in Europe. I sometimes attempt to buy things from eBay Germany. Many selles say "will ship to Germany only". When I then enquire about shipping to Denmark (for those who dont know: both countries are in the EU and hence no custom things, importdeclarations etc. are needed, just some extra P & P), some say "no problem", others say "no thank you" and still some others dont bother to replay at all. And of course I tell them that postage, bank transfer costs, etc. will be paid. Nico --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.709 / Virus Database: 465 - Release Date: 22-06-2004 From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 30 02:13:01 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <200406300636.CAA22937@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <011b01c45e71$ae46afc0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:26 AM Subject: Re: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes > > The eBay "will ship to only" is > > something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential market? An > > international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping and that > > might put them off but why shut them out completely? The extra > > hassle of an international shipment cannot be that great, at least it > > isn't in my experience here in Europe. > > Europe is civilized. Europeans understand that the world is a > patchwork of many countries and many societies and are prepared to deal > with that. > > The US is not so lucky. Yes, there are plenty of people in the US who > are internationalized - but there are a depressing number to whom the > world (apparently) consists of the US plus assorted debris not worth > bothering with. An overseas buyer yes, is perceived as "just one o' > dem furriners", and the potential market is seen as so small as to be > not worth the hassle. (The problematic people most likely have never > even tried to ship internationally and perceive the hassle as far > greater than it actually is. I'm talking about the sort of person who > thinks of euros as play money because they're colourful instead of > being "good honest greenbacks".) > > It's a baffling mindset to wrap your head around if you're not trapped > in it yourself. But I've become convinced that something very much > like it is all too real. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Shipping overseas is more effort for people. I have seen people selling equipment that would get allot more money on ebay but they don't want the hassle of doing that. Lots of people don't even want to ship smaller systems in the US let alone Europe. Lots of posts for equipment on newsgroups state they will not ship anything at all, you have to show up and get it. Its worse if you are a business that offers any type of warranty on the items you are selling on ebay. I think the more money you have, or the more you think your time is worth, the less willing you are to be bothered selling and boxing inexpensive gear that you outgrow. From Innfogra at aol.com Wed Jun 30 03:10:23 2004 From: Innfogra at aol.com (Innfogra@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes Message-ID: I would be happy to act as a trans-shipper. I am quite used to shipping internationally and really enjoy my international customers. I am also known for my packing. Paxton Astoria, Oregon 97103 USA Innfosale on eBay From bert at brothom.nl Wed Jun 30 05:04:19 2004 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Copy of NetWare 3.1x References: <1088531887.2263.5.camel@azure> Message-ID: <40E29023.E4478AA@brothom.nl> Paul Berger wrote: > > Anybody have suggestions as to where I can find a copy of Netware 3.11 > or 3.12 for a project I'm working on? Do you need a license or only the disks? If have both, so I should be able to help you. Bert From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 04:14:22 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <20040629204441.12c8daeb.sastevens@earthlink.net> References: <20040629204441.12c8daeb.sastevens@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <182515c74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <20040629204441.12c8daeb.sastevens@earthlink.net> Scott Stevens wrote: > I'm surprised that nobody has made replicating these pods in some > fashion into a published project somewhere. It seems like a worthy > design effort that many people would benefit from. I might have a go at doing the design work today. It's just a case of finding my Isograph pens, a ruler and a bit of paper. The connector looks like a standard IDC connector, but I don't think I've got any IDC40 sockets in stock. That and I need to find somewhere that stocks grabber probes at a reasonable price... Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Feet Smell? Nose Run? Hey, you're upside down! From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 04:22:47 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bea15c74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > In which case I suspect this analyser with kludged pods will be good enough. The problem being that grabber probes tend to be rather expensive - the cheapest I found were ?1 +VAT, and they weren't particularly well made either. The SMD parts for the pods are cheap enough (?3 +VAT for enough parts to build up 50 single-channel pods), IDC cable is easy enough to get, but the grabbers are a bit too expensive. If I could get a few good-quality grabbers for around 50p each... I might just build a few interface pods with a 20-way IDC connector on the output - fit an IDC20 to the target board, then just plug the analyser straignt into the board. I've been improvising with bits of solid core wire and 150K resistors. So far I've managed to probe the 1-wire bus on an iButton-based lock, but that's about it. I still need to test the other data channels on the analyser... > That's what the Elektor analyser consisted of..... Yeah, I saw that. A few FIFOs and an Atmel MCU. I didn't build it because there was no binary or source code available for the MCU and the software was crap. > FWIW, I do a lot of my work with a 3 channel logic analyser (HP > LogicDart), Isn't that the handheld analyser that HP used to make? ISTR they sold the design rights to Fluke - I've seen them listed in the Farnell catalogue under the heading "Fluke LogicDart handheld logic analyser". > and I find that to be enough. Often all I need to look at is > one signal against an enable or something like that. Actually, a > single-channel analyser is sometimes enough. I used to use a PC to do basic logic analysis - the adapter was a DB25 connector connected to a few flying leads, with 47k resistors between the leads and the connector. It worked reasonably well, but it kept missing samples. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Flash Gordon exposed himself to all sorts of danger. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 30 04:26:51 2004 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners References: Message-ID: <40E28759.F80CAB32@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > True story (although I am ashamed to admit it). I was sorting out a > Commodore 8250LP (slimline model, double sided drives). And I could not > get a reliable read signal. > > I checked all the components in the head amplifier, the head switching > diodes, the head select signals, and so on. I then remembered to clean > the heads. Worked fine after that... > > -tony I've had an inclination for some time to start a thread along these lines: tales told at one's own expense. Of course, one can't make such a suggestion unless one is willing to put up one's own tale. So here's one at mine (I'm willing to follow up with another if this catches on at all): Back around 1981/2 when the CompSci department here was much smaller, I filled in occasionally to do some hardware repair and support when I'd had enough of sitting and doodling with little green characters on a screen (aka: programming). Our TI-990 [1] - being used for OS development - needed some new boot PROMs burned but the PROM burner was being flaky, burning erratic bit patterns and such. I decided to tackle this and proceeded to haul out our newly-acquired sophisticated multi-channel logic analyser, an oscilloscope, a DVM, arranged it all around the rack-mount computer and prom burner with it's guts hanging out, pulled a terminal over so I could control the burner via the computer, connected up multitudes of probes and pods, sat myself in the middle of it all and started turning knobs, flipping switches, and bringing up pretty traces on all the screens. I looked like a real rocket scientist, surrounded on three sides by all this hi-tech equipment ... but I wasn't getting anywhere. I decided to take a break and go for lunch. When I returned, the other hardware guy informed me the PROM burner was fixed. He had taken a screwdriver and made a minor tweak to the 5 volt logic supply level. (I was going to do that ... really I was...) [1] As much as I recall, I still think the -990 was a rather neat machine architecture, the stack-based work-space registers making for simple process switching and nice compiler code generation. Some RISC characteristics way before RISC. From classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk Wed Jun 30 04:52:53 2004 From: classiccmp.org at irrelevant.fsnet.co.uk (Rob O'Donnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Message-ID: <6.1.1.1.0.20040630103708.05c16238@pop.freeserve.net> At 07:21 30/06/2004, Hans B PUFAL wrote: >The eBay "will ship to only" is something >I do not understand. Why reduce your potential >market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping >and that might put them off but why shut them out >completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment cannot be that >great, at least it isn't in my experience here in Europe. I find exactly the same thing. So many times I get desperate to find something, make no hits on ebay UK, search ebay.com and find loads. Will you consider shipping internationally? Nope... Wheras we sell on ebay UK, (mostly off-topic glass animals and suchlike) and ship worldwide. I've posted packets all across Europe, Australasia, South America, etc., but by far the majority of international sales are to the US. Apart from the postage, outside Europe there's only a customs sticker to do, and a bit more care needed over packaging, but it's not a lot of work.. Of course we then hit the "just click pay-now-with-paypal" on ebay problem where eBay just adds in local UK postage and not the extra for international shipping, and more than one person a week cannot read... Oh and the "what's that in real money?" questions .. Or we receive money orders in USD for the figure we billed in GBP.. Mind you ... the most amusing thing was one sale - we import porcelain figures from Hagen-Renaker in California, put some on eBay Uk, and sold them ... to a buyer in California.. A long round-trip for those particular horses! >So this leads me to propose that we set up staging addresses in the States >(and any other country for that matter). For >a small fee participants would agree to receive and transship packages for >other members on the opposite side of the world. >I would be happy to offer my services in that regard. We ended up using my sister-in-law's fiance's parents (who are in the US) to relay one item we wanted. Had to send the seller USD 11 in CASH because they didn't accept anything electronic. (But we had it, as we ourselves accept cash payments in foreign money, and keep it for this eventuality.) Rob From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 06:14:55 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630071455.00926100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 08:21 AM 6/30/04 +0200, you wrote: >Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on Ebay at the >>moment, well, at least there's nothing that's available to the UK. Plenty of >>probe kits available USA-only though... >> >> >I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they are unable >to see the advantages of selling internationally. >Yesterday I decided to see about buying a new laptop. Having chosen the >model I searched on Froogle and found >well over 100 hits. I contacted the 5 cheapest to ask if they would >ship internationally - four replied NO. The one >positive response was also the cheapest so they get the order! > >The eBay "will ship to only" is >something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential >market? I've wondered the same thing. I sell on E-bay and I send about half the stuff that I sell over seas. The one problem that I've had is that many over seas buyers never pay. Perhaps they bid then find out the high shipping costs and costs of making payments via Western Union or whoever and then just back out without saying anything. I'm been waiting 6 weeks for payment on some DEC parts right now. As far as the shippers go, I've found many of them to be incredibly lazy and greedy! A lot of them want $35 or sometimes even $50 handling charge for the smallest item. My opinion is that packing and handling is part of the cost of doing business unless it's something extra ordinary. An international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping >and that might put them off but why shut them out >completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment cannot be >that great, at least it isn't in my experience here in Europe. > >So this leads me to propose that we set up staging addresses in the >States (and any other country for that matter). For >a small fee participants would agree to receive and transship packages >for other members on the opposite side of the world. I've already been doing that for a number of people. But I don't want to make a regular business of it. It doesn't cost much as far as money is concerned but it is time consuming and if I did a lot of it then space would become a problem. (Space is already a problem :-( Joe >I would be happy to offer my services in that regard. > > -- HansP > > > > > > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 06:58:15 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <200406300636.CAA22937@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:26 AM 6/30/04 -0400, Der mouse wrote: > >Europe is civilized. Europeans understand that the world is a >patchwork of many countries and many societies and are prepared to deal >with that. > >The US is not so lucky. Yes, there are plenty of people in the US who >are internationalized - but there are a depressing number to whom the >world (apparently) consists of the US plus assorted debris not worth >bothering with. An overseas buyer yes, is perceived as "just one o' >dem furriners", BS! You've been watching too much television trash! Americans DO NOT have that attitude. They have a more integrated society that includes more races and regilions and foreign visitors and immigrants than any country that I've ever been to and I've been to a LOT of them. I HAVE a Canadian citizenship and I've lived and worked in Canada as well as several other countries and I'll be happy to discuss the differnces with you if you'd like! Even with the problems here I'd rather live here than any other country that I've been to! But to get to cases, the big difference is that for the most part we have common customs, common practices and a common language which makes it simple to do business between states. For example I can ship from Florida to California just as easily as I can ship to the next town down the road. Canadians can't say that! You even have customs duties and sales taxes when selling things from one province to another. In fact, most states in the US reguire that you collect sales tax on items sold. However if it's going to another state then you are not reguired to collect tax so in some ways out of state sales are even easier. The opposite is true in Canada and most other countries. You also have to do everything in two langauges (by law, no less!). Europe can be maddening to deal with! Every country has different rules about what size and weight packages you can send there. Futhermore you can't use some shipping classes to some coutries. For example you can't send Global Priority Mail to Italy. EVEN more, if you want to insure the package then you can only send it certain classes in some countries. Within the US you can insure any package of any shipping class. Something else that most Europeans aren't aware of is just how big this country is! (Yeah Canada is bigger but less than 10% is really populated). We don't need to deal with foreign countries. I don't mean that in a negative sense but what I mean is that we can find everything we need here (including plenty of E-bay buyers) without the hassles of foreign currencies, languages, quirky shipping regulations, customs duties, etc etc. For example just last week I found two books that I wanted to buy from a dealer in the UK. By the time that I went through the hassles and money conversions and getting the money to them, paid shipping, dealt with customs, etc etc it was going to cost over twice as much as the sales price. I gave up and bought the books in the US, it ended up being cheaper and a lot less trouble. All I had to do here was to pick up the telephone and call them in Massachusetts (at no charge), give them my credit card number and address and told them what I wanted. The books arrived yesterday (all three are first editions of the MIT Radiation Lab books). There were no fees to pay and no forms to fill and and zero hassles. speaking of hassels I guess I can throw in one barb here. I have found that service in some European counties and in some places in Canada is LOUSY! They act like they're doing you a favor to wait on you or to sell you anything. They only thing that I can says about that is that they would not have a job long here with their attitudes. French Canada (Montreal specificly) was particularly interesting. They REALLY push the French language there and they are required by law to greet you in French and to try and initiate the conversation in French. I found that they frequently refused to speak English to other Canadians from outside of Quebec since they expected them to be able to speak in French. But if you let them know that you were an American most of them would happly speak to you in English since they didn't expect Americans to speak French. AND if you let them know that you were from Florida, many of them couldn't do enough for you! It seems that they all dream of retiring and moving to Florida :-) Joe and the potential market is seen as so small as to be >not worth the hassle. (The problematic people most likely have never >even tried to ship internationally and perceive the hassle as far >greater than it actually is. I'm talking about the sort of person who >thinks of euros as play money because they're colourful instead of >being "good honest greenbacks".) > >It's a baffling mindset to wrap your head around if you're not trapped >in it yourself. But I've become convinced that something very much >like it is all too real. > >/~\ The ASCII der Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 07:00:54 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630080054.008b1d60@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Hi Paxton, I was wondering if you were still around. I haven't heard anything from you in a long time. Joe At 04:10 AM 6/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >I would be happy to act as a trans-shipper. I am quite used to shipping >internationally and really enjoy my international customers. I am also known for my >packing. > >Paxton >Astoria, Oregon 97103 >USA > >Innfosale on eBay > From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 07:15:29 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> References: <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In message <200406290259.TAA13244@floodgap.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I also add on that some forms of isopropyl alcohol are only 70% -- look > for the 91% solution if you can, since that evapourates more cleanly. Servisol IPA-170 seems to work quite well for all sorts of things - I've used it to remove thermal compound from heatsinks, clean tape heads, remove solder flux, that sort of thing. I think it's about 90% pure, "electronics grade" or something like that. Maplin Electronics sell it for about ?5 per 400ml aerosol can. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... In nuclear warfare all men are cremated equal. From sanepsycho at globaldialog.com Wed Jun 30 07:32:04 2004 From: sanepsycho at globaldialog.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Copy of NetWare 3.1x In-Reply-To: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623621086@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> References: <2E6595D306CCF54DB703F7BB1E261623621086@minerva.headoffice.corporate.local> Message-ID: <1088598724.1766.6.camel@azure> On Tue, 2004-06-29 at 20:17, Parker, Kevin wrote: > I haven't looked but I thought a while ago I saw legacy stuff on Novell's site. > I've found the older clients and service packs for the 3.x series, but not the actual server software. They have released the source code for some of their utilities on the developer's section for 3.x. Maybe I'll dig around some more on their site. It would be nice if they would release it as unsupported freeware because 3.x is not a commercial product anymore. Regards, Paul > > +++++++++++++++++++ > Kevin Parker > Web Services Manager > WorkCover Corporation > > p: 08 8233 2548 > e: webmaster@workcover.com > w: www.workcover.com > +++++++++++++++++++ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Paul Berger > Sent: Wednesday, 30 June 2004 3:28 AM > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Copy of NetWare 3.1x > > > Anybody have suggestions as to where I can find a copy of Netware 3.11 > or 3.12 for a project I'm working on? > > Thanks and regards, > Paul > > > ************************************************************************ > This e-mail is intended for the use of the addressee only. It may > contain information that is protected by legislated confidentiality > and/or is legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient you > are prohibited from disseminating, distributing or copying this e-mail. > > Any opinion expressed in this e-mail may not necessarily be that of the > WorkCover Corporation of South Australia. Although precautions have > been taken, the sender cannot warrant that this e-mail or any files > transmitted with it are free of viruses or any other defect. > > If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > immediately by return e-mail and destroy the original e-mail and any > copies. > ************************************************************************ > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 30 08:05:25 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <200406300636.CAA22937@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from der Mouse at "Jun 30, 4 02:26:11 am" Message-ID: <200406301305.GAA03494@floodgap.com> > Europe is civilized. Europeans understand that the world is a > patchwork of many countries and many societies and are prepared to deal > with that. > > The US is not so lucky. Yes, there are plenty of people in the US who > are internationalized - but there are a depressing number to whom the > world (apparently) consists of the US plus assorted debris not worth > bothering with. Ah, more "America sucks" invective. Yes, that's very civilized. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- I don't care who you are, stop walking on the water when I'm fishing! <>< -- From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 30 07:57:05 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630071455.00926100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630071455.00926100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406300757.05968.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 30 June 2004 06:14, Joe R. wrote: > At 08:21 AM 6/30/04 +0200, you wrote: > >Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on > >> Ebay at the moment, well, at least there's nothing that's > >> available to the UK. Plenty of probe kits available USA-only > >> though... > > > >I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they are > > unable to see the advantages of selling internationally. > >Yesterday I decided to see about buying a new laptop. Having chosen > > the model I searched on Froogle and found > >well over 100 hits. I contacted the 5 cheapest to ask if they > > would ship internationally - four replied NO. The one > >positive response was also the cheapest so they get the order! > > > >The eBay "will ship to only" is > >something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential > >market? > > I've wondered the same thing. I sell on E-bay and I send about half > the stuff that I sell over seas. The one problem that I've had is > that many over seas buyers never pay. Perhaps they bid then find out > the high shipping costs and costs of making payments via Western > Union or whoever and then just back out without saying anything. I'm > been waiting 6 weeks for payment on some DEC parts right now. As far > as the shippers go, I've found many of them to be incredibly lazy and > greedy! A lot of them want $35 or sometimes even $50 handling charge > for the smallest item. My opinion is that packing and handling is > part of the cost of doing business unless it's something extra > ordinary. I'd completely agree with Joe's assessment. The only reason I'm hesitant to send things internationally is because payment for the items ends up being difficult sometimes. I now have listed in my auctions that I only accept paypal internationally, but if prodded, I'd accept cheques from Canada (as I've had good success with that before) or Western Union as one guy used that to send me payment before. People sometimes end up sending checks either surface mail from Europe (4-6 weeks for payment, ick), or via /dev/null mail, it seems. Not everyone, but it has happened enough that I prefer to avoid international checks -- also it takes a few weeks for them to clear and the money to show up in my account once I deposit the check at my bank). When I try to sell stuff via ebay, it's usually because I want it gone quickly, not because I want top dollar for it, so waiting even a week for a check via airmail is usually undesirable to me. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From allain at panix.com Wed Jun 30 08:01:10 2004 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <009c01c45ea2$51141500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Interesting enough thread. While I think it's likely that most of the problems for shiippers would be in having to make extra trips to the postoffice and in filling out additional forms... something not yet mentioned might be that modern computers can qualify for supercomputer status, and since they are capable of doing things like nuclear simulations, code making & breaking and the like, there is one other important reason to restrict international trade. related: http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CGN/is_3740/ai_55695270 "US Dept of Commerce Relaxes Supercomputer Export Controls" (1999) Limit _was_ apparently on 2GHz machines. John A. From squidster at techie.com Wed Jun 30 01:27:57 2004 From: squidster at techie.com (wai-sun chia) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 manuals? Message-ID: <20040630062757.9C05E790052@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Hello list, Anybody has the manuals (tif/pdf) or software (RX50 images) for the DEC Rainbow 100? Al@bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have anything on the Rainbow... Thanks. /wai-sun -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm From cronopien at yahoo.de Wed Jun 30 07:45:09 2004 From: cronopien at yahoo.de (Lorenz Findeisen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Mixer data sheet Message-ID: Hi Cris, I read in a forum that you?ve a data sheet for the shure M68FCE ?mixer ?Do you still have the file? Would be great, I?d like to reuse this stuff Thanks a lot, Lorenz form Paris From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 08:24:56 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: XTerms + DEC stuff + misc available (Cambridge, UK) Message-ID: <1088601896.2977.285.camel@weka.localdomain> I'm aware of the following up for disposal (I think they're off to landfill at the end of next week by the sounds of it) in Cambridge, if anyone's interested: 17 HP Xterminals 5 HP 700RX (Xterminals) 3 Vaxstation 3100 4 Large SCSI boxes 4 Medium SCSI boxes 6 BBC Bs 16 BBC type monitors 4 NCD Xterms 1 HP Entria Xterm 8 Dot matrix printers 1 DEC 3000 1 Sparc 4 1 Extremely spiky thing 1 Olivetti drive of some description 1 huge monitor box of cables Lots of random software I should be meeting with the chap tomorrow as I'm picking up some other stuff from him, so hopefully I can look over everything. I *may* grab the software and cable boxes just so I can take a proper inventory, although I have no desire to hang onto anything other than a SCSI cable or two. Note 1: this is the *UK* Cambridge (I always put that in the subject, and people always miss it :-) Note 2: various people know about this stuff, so it's a case of first come, first served. I can put you in touch with the chap if there is anything you want from the list. ps. I too am curious to know what the spiky thing is! cheers Jules From philpem at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jun 30 08:35:56 2004 From: philpem at dsl.pipex.com (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <40E28759.F80CAB32@cs.ubc.ca> References: <40E28759.F80CAB32@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <88172dc74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> In message <40E28759.F80CAB32@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > When I returned, the other hardware guy informed me the PROM burner was > fixed. > He had taken a screwdriver and made a minor tweak to the 5 volt logic > supply level. Lesson #1: Before doing ANYTHING else, get a multimeter and check ALL the power supply voltages. If the power supply reads good, go get the schematics and an oscilloscope :) I think I've still got a power supply somewhere that has a flaky 5V regulator. Sometimes the regulator starts up fine, then runs for hours. Other times it just sits there dead - strangely enough, drumming one's fingers on the casing usually gets the regulator to start. I'll fix the dry joint on the PCB when my Farnell L30B bench PSU dies. Speaking of which, does anyone have a service manual for the Farnell L30B power supply? One of these days, I'll build a custom power supply. At the very least, the L30B needs its switches, one of the meters and all of the potentiometers replacing. Oh, and I need to find two self-tapping (?) screws to hold the side panels on. Bleagh. Later. -- Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB, philpem@dsl.pipex.com | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice, http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI ... Growing old is mandatory; growing up is optional!! From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 30 08:37:52 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Message-ID: <16610.49712.172177.492410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Hans" == Hans B PUFAL writes: Hans> Philip Pemberton wrote: >> There doesn't seem to be anything even remotely close to this on >> Ebay at the moment, well, at least there's nothing that's >> available to the UK. Plenty of probe kits available USA-only >> though... >> >> Hans> I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they Hans> are unable to see the advantages of selling internationally.... Hans> The eBay "will ship to only" is Hans> something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential Hans> market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for Hans> shipping and that might put them off but why shut them out Hans> completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment Hans> cannot be that great, at least it isn't in my experience here Hans> in Europe. Unfortunately you're mistaken (for the case of exports from the USA). Shipping things may be easy if you don't bother studying the export laws, but if you DO make the effort to learn and understand them and comply, you'll find it is not easy at all. I spent several days in a course on this topic back in 2000, and naturally things are more complicated now. paul From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 08:43:36 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 manuals? In-Reply-To: <20040630062757.9C05E790052@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> References: <20040630062757.9C05E790052@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: <1088603016.2977.303.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 06:27, wai-sun chia wrote: > Hello list, > Anybody has the manuals (tif/pdf) or software (RX50 images) for the DEC Rainbow 100? > Al@bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have anything on the Rainbow... As far as manuals goes, http://vt100.net/manx looks like what you need - just do a search for rainbow. Try http://www.classiccmp.org/rainbow for software, there's a few odds and ends liked via there. cheers, Jules From Pres at macro-inc.com Wed Jun 30 08:08:34 2004 From: Pres at macro-inc.com (Ed Kelleher) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Upgrading a KDF-11B ROMs for MSCP Bootstrap (disassembling a bootstrap ROM?) In-Reply-To: <10406281948.ZM27173@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> References: <"Robert Armstrong" <002701c45d2c$61d48b80$bb02010a@LIFEBOOK> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20040630074230.0247fbd8@192.168.0.1> At 02:48 PM 6/28/2004, you wrote: > > I have a KDF-11B (that's the quad sized PDP-11/23+ CPU with onboard > > serial ports and bootstrap/terminator) that's too old to know how to > > boot from MSCP (e.g. RQDX/RD5x) drives. I know later versions of >this > > board could do that and I was planning to just upgrade the EPROMs on >my > > board, but all the later EPROM images are 8K bytes - my board has >only > > 2K (2716) 24 pin EPROMS. There's no way (at least no simple way) to > > install 8K 28pin EPROMs. Actually, the EPROM sockets on my board are >so > > close together that I don't think I could get 28 pin devices to fit >even > > if I did "flying leads" for the extra 4 pins. > > All the KDF11B (M8189) boards have 24pin sockets. They used Motorola MCM68766 8Kx8 24 pin eproms. The MicroPDP 11 (vs 11/23+) DEC EPROM numbers I know of are: 183E4/184E4 - KDF11-BE 380E4/381E4 - KDF11-BH 453E4/454E4 - KDF11-BJ All have DU boot, the latter has an MU boot as well. I have a set of the 183E4/184E4 EPROMs with DU boot for KDF11-B, M8189 modules that I'd trade for an RQDX3. Ed Kelleher Columbia, SC From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 08:53:03 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Buying in the States In-Reply-To: <009c01c45ea2$51141500$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 09:01 AM 6/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >Interesting enough thread. >While I think it's likely that most of the problems for shiippers would be >in having to make extra trips to the postoffice and in filling out >additional forms... > >something not yet mentioned might be that >modern computers can qualify for supercomputer status, and since they are >capable of doing things like nuclear simulations, code making & breaking >and the like, there is one other important reason to restrict international >trade. You're right and that's something that you have to watch for. I picked up some interesting looks parts out of a scrap pile a few weeks ago and starting searching the net for information about them. The first thing that I found was that they are on the restricted export list and are classified as munitions (there goes E-bay)! They're actually quartz rate sensors (QRS11) made by Systron Donner. ( for those that are interested.) Basicly a solid state gyro-scope. The ironic thing is that the Japanese are now building almost identical devices into some of their cars to control skids. Joe > >related: >http://articles.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CGN/is_3740/ai_55695270 >"US Dept of Commerce Relaxes Supercomputer Export Controls" (1999) >Limit _was_ apparently on 2GHz machines. > >John A. > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 08:55:42 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:58 2005 Subject: Mixer data sheet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630095542.008f7310@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Wrong list! This is a mailing list for collectors of old computers. Try the Chip Directory mail list at . But you should probably join the list first. Joe At 02:45 PM 6/30/04 +0200, you wrote: >Hi Cris, >I read in a forum that you?ve a data sheet for the shure M68FCE ?mixer ?Do >you still have the file? >Would be great, I?d like to reuse this stuff >Thanks a lot, >Lorenz form Paris > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 09:08:22 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1088604501.2977.325.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 11:58, Joe R. wrote: > I have found > that service in some European counties and in some places in Canada is > LOUSY! They act like they're doing you a favor to wait on you or to sell > you anything. They only thing that I can says about that is that they would > not have a job long here with their attitudes. Now that's interesting. My view is that they *are* doing you a favour, just as I'd expect someone to be polite to me if I were serving them in some way and not take me for granted. Maybe that does highlight a big difference between the US and European attitudes (plus Austalia and NZ) to service. One thing I do find is that people often visit foreign countries and expect to be treated just as they're used to at home (I'm not suggesting that about you, it's just a general observation). For me, part of the challenge and fun of going overseas is to experience other beliefs, cultures and ways of doing things, and adjusting to the locals' way of doing things. > French Canada (Montreal > specificly) was particularly interesting. They REALLY push the French > language there and they are required by law to greet you in French and to > try and initiate the conversation in French. Presumably because it's French Canada? :-) People generally take pride in their language and often don't like others making assumptions about what language they should speak. (Although I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be if I were forced to greet people in a particular tongue - I suppose the intention of the law there is to just try and protect the local heritage though) cheers, Jules From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 09:13:18 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1088604798.2977.329.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 13:53, Joe R. wrote: > I picked up > some interesting looks parts out of a scrap pile a few weeks ago and > starting searching the net for information about them. The first thing that > I found was that they are on the restricted export list and are classified > as munitions (there goes E-bay)! They're actually quartz rate sensors > (QRS11) made by Systron Donner. > ( for those that are > interested.) Basicly a solid state gyro-scope. The ironic thing is that the > Japanese are now building almost identical devices into some of their cars > to control skids. Heh, that makes me think of: http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile and one of the news stories covering the shutdown of the project at: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3302763.stm With a bit of ingenuity I suppose it's surprising what can be done whilst still technically operating within the law. cheers Jules From john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org Wed Jun 30 09:36:07 2004 From: john_boffemmyer_iv at boff-net.dhs.org (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: XTerms + DEC stuff + misc available (Cambridge, UK) In-Reply-To: <1088601896.2977.285.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <1088601896.2977.285.camel@weka.localdomain> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20040630103408.02ba0e70@mail.n.ml.org> damn, wrong side of the pond. =/ would have been nice to get scsi boxes and cables. probably wouldn't work on US power anyhow. spiky thing sounds interesting too. maybe it was to keep physical hackers away (instead of software hackers)? heh. -John Boffemmyer IV At 09:24 AM 6/30/2004, you wrote: >I'm aware of the following up for disposal (I think they're off to >landfill at the end of next week by the sounds of it) in Cambridge, if >anyone's interested: > > 17 HP Xterminals > 5 HP 700RX (Xterminals) > 3 Vaxstation 3100 > 4 Large SCSI boxes > 4 Medium SCSI boxes > 6 BBC Bs > 16 BBC type monitors > 4 NCD Xterms > 1 HP Entria Xterm > 8 Dot matrix printers > 1 DEC 3000 > 1 Sparc 4 > 1 Extremely spiky thing > 1 Olivetti drive of some description > 1 huge monitor box of cables > Lots of random software > >I should be meeting with the chap tomorrow as I'm picking up some other >stuff from him, so hopefully I can look over everything. I *may* grab >the software and cable boxes just so I can take a proper inventory, >although I have no desire to hang onto anything other than a SCSI cable >or two. > >Note 1: this is the *UK* Cambridge (I always put that in the subject, >and people always miss it :-) > >Note 2: various people know about this stuff, so it's a case of first >come, first served. I can put you in touch with the chap if there is >anything you want from the list. > >ps. I too am curious to know what the spiky thing is! > >cheers > >Jules ---------------------------------------- Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html --------------------------------------- From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 10:00:58 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! Message-ID: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> The mirror at classiccmp of bitsavers.org is up and fully in sync with Al's site now. You can access it via http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers This mirror is updated once a day at 2am CDT. Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 30 10:14:50 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> Jay, What do you use to keep your mirror in sync? I need to implement something to do that to the mirror that I'm maintaining. Thanks, Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:00 AM Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > The mirror at classiccmp of bitsavers.org is up and fully in sync with Al's > site now. You can access it via http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers > > This mirror is updated once a day at 2am CDT. > > Jay > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 30 10:08:53 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <16610.49712.172177.492410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Hans> I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they > Hans> are unable to see the advantages of selling internationally.... > > Hans> The eBay "will ship to only" is > Hans> something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential > Hans> market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for > Hans> shipping and that might put them off but why shut them out > Hans> completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment > Hans> cannot be that great, at least it isn't in my experience here > Hans> in Europe. > > Unfortunately you're mistaken (for the case of exports from the USA). > Shipping things may be easy if you don't bother studying the export > laws, but if you DO make the effort to learn and understand them and > comply, you'll find it is not easy at all. > > I spent several days in a course on this topic back in 2000, and > naturally things are more complicated now. Thats why smart people live in countries that are less restrictive on what can be exported "in the People's Best Interest". :) (no, Hans, France is not one of em either ;-) Seriously though. Yes, the export stuff is an issue in the U.S., although so far, most sellers basically did not want to bother with the extra forms, the ".. possibility of me having to pay taxes or duties for your country..." and so on. And, face it, most U.S. citizens don't even KNOW where, say, Holland is. (no flames on this last observation, please, flame me off-list if you feel like it..) And ya know what? Once I tell em I actually live in the U.S., but am "sent out" to Europe... they're all of a sudden OK with sending it to Holland again. Even though they need exact instructions on how to fill out those damn forms ;-) Just my observation, being a multi-country hopper.. --f From kbhipp at hotmail.com Wed Jun 30 10:05:18 2004 From: kbhipp at hotmail.com (Kevin B. Hipp) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Elan Eprom manual Message-ID: Tim A couple of months ago we exchanged emails concerning Elan EPROM programming manuals. Have you had any luck in obtaining a copy? I have not. I have been experimenting with the programmer and have not been very successful in programming a chip. I mainly wish to copy eproms. Have you been able to figure out your machine? Thanks Kevin B. Hipp From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 30 10:25:26 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: Message-ID: <006501c45eb6$7832a3e0$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred N. van Kempen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:08 AM Subject: Re: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes > On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > Thats why smart people live in countries that are less restrictive > on what can be exported "in the People's Best Interest". :) > > (no, Hans, France is not one of em either ;-) > > Seriously though. Yes, the export stuff is an issue in the U.S., > although so far, most sellers basically did not want to bother > with the extra forms, the ".. possibility of me having to pay > taxes or duties for your country..." and so on. And, face it, > most U.S. citizens don't even KNOW where, say, Holland is. > > (no flames on this last observation, please, flame me off-list > if you feel like it..) > > And ya know what? Once I tell em I actually live in the U.S., but > am "sent out" to Europe... they're all of a sudden OK with sending > it to Holland again. Even though they need exact instructions on > how to fill out those damn forms ;-) > > Just my observation, being a multi-country hopper.. > > --f > > I wonder if its is ten times easier getting items into the country then it is getting them out (referring to the US)? From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 30 10:27:01 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <16610.49712.172177.492410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <16610.56261.37574.33466@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred N van Kempen writes: Fred> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Paul Koning wrote: Hans> I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they Hans> are unable to see the advantages of selling internationally.... >> Hans> The eBay "will ship to only" is Hans> something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential Hans> market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for Hans> shipping and that might put them off but why shut them out Hans> completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment Hans> cannot be that great, at least it isn't in my experience here Hans> in Europe. >> Unfortunately you're mistaken (for the case of exports from the >> USA). Shipping things may be easy if you don't bother studying >> the export laws, but if you DO make the effort to learn and >> understand them and comply, you'll find it is not easy at all. >> >> I spent several days in a course on this topic back in 2000, and >> naturally things are more complicated now. Fred> Thats why smart people live in countries that are less Fred> restrictive on what can be exported "in the People's Best Fred> Interest". :) That doesn't necessarily help... if it came from the US, it technically carries restrictions with it as it travels. Fred> Seriously though. Yes, the export stuff is an issue in the Fred> U.S., although so far, most sellers basically did not want to Fred> bother with the extra forms, the ".. possibility of me having Fred> to pay taxes or duties for your country..." and so on. And, Fred> face it, most U.S. citizens don't even KNOW where, say, Holland Fred> is. Why should they? :-) (Former Dutchman speaking here...) The issue isn't just forms. The issue is that the rules require you to check each shipment destination to see if it matches a prohibited parties list, and that list changes all the time. It's not a low overhead activity to do this stuff right. I suspect there are people who don't do this, either because they have no clue that they are required to, or because they figure they don't care. But my point is that it is hard work to obey the law in this area. Fred> And ya know what? Once I tell em I actually live in the U.S., Fred> but am "sent out" to Europe... they're all of a sudden OK with Fred> sending it to Holland again. Even though they need exact Fred> instructions on how to fill out those damn forms ;-) If the sender was aware of the rules and applying them as written, I don't think that should have made any difference... paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 30 10:32:41 2004 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! In-Reply-To: <00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 30 June 2004 10:14, Ashley Carder wrote: > Jay, > > What do you use to keep your mirror in sync? I need to > implement something to do that to the mirror that I'm > maintaining. Probably mirror: http://bio-mirror.net:8081/Bio-mirror/biomirror/software/mirror-info.txt However, I'd recommend rsync over mirror if you can use it. I haven't used mirror as much as rsync, but I've never had a problem with rsync. Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay West" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:00 AM > Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > > > The mirror at classiccmp of bitsavers.org is up and fully in sync > > with > > Al's > > > site now. You can access it via http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers > > > > This mirror is updated once a day at 2am CDT. > > > > Jay > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] -- Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 30 10:28:04 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <006501c45eb6$7832a3e0$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Teo Zenios wrote: > I wonder if its is ten times easier getting items into the country then it > is getting them out (referring to the US)? That depends whether you're a person or a 'puter :) There's only import restrictions on people, but almost only export restrictions on 'puters :) Did I tell the list about my adventures with a (U.S.) parcel carrier that had to transport a bunch of VAX 11/750 boards to my address in Holland? They quoted me import duties here (24%, by the way) over the total value of US$ 275,000.00. Why? Because said parcel service's U.S. office droids decided it *was* an 11/750 they were moving, not just parts. Yes, I am still fighting that battle. --f From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 10:32:42 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <006f01c45eb7$7c0142a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> I use fmirror If you are using freebsd and have the ports collection installed, just do the following: cd /usr/ports/ftp/fmirror make;make install Otherwise download the distribution. Linux RPM's exist as well as generic source tarballs... google is your friend. Then create a fmirror.conf file (mine is in /usr/local/etc) similar to... username: whateverusernameAlgaveyou password: whateveryourpasswordis host: www.bitsavers.org remotedir: /Users/aek/web/bitsavers/pdf localdir: /pathtowhereveryourmirrordirectoryis exclude: f ^(\.in\.|\.mirror|core$|MIRROR\.LOG|\.notar|\.message) exclude: f ^(\.cache|\.zipped|lost\+found|Network Thrash Folder) Then put a line in crontab to run it periodically such as: 0 2 * * * root /usr/local/bin/fmirror -f /usr/local/etc/fmirror.conf Try to stay away from 2am CDT, thats my timeslot :) Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashley Carder" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 10:14 AM Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > Jay, > > What do you use to keep your mirror in sync? I need to > implement something to do that to the mirror that I'm > maintaining. > > Thanks, > Ashley > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jay West" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:00 AM > Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > > > > The mirror at classiccmp of bitsavers.org is up and fully in sync with > Al's > > site now. You can access it via http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers > > > > This mirror is updated once a day at 2am CDT. > > > > Jay > > > > --- > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 30 10:42:30 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> <200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <000c01c45eb8$daeff990$99100f14@mcothran1> Do you have a link for rsync? - A ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Finnegan" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > On Wednesday 30 June 2004 10:14, Ashley Carder wrote: > > Jay, > > > > What do you use to keep your mirror in sync? I need to > > implement something to do that to the mirror that I'm > > maintaining. > > Probably mirror: > > http://bio-mirror.net:8081/Bio-mirror/biomirror/software/mirror-info.txt > > However, I'd recommend rsync over mirror if you can use it. I haven't > used mirror as much as rsync, but I've never had a problem with rsync. > > Pat > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jay West" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:00 AM > > Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > > > > > The mirror at classiccmp of bitsavers.org is up and fully in sync > > > with > > > > Al's > > > > > site now. You can access it via http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers > > > > > > This mirror is updated once a day at 2am CDT. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > --- > > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > -- > Purdue University ITAP/RCS --- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 10:36:34 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> <200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <007501c45eb8$0618d2a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Patrick wrote.... > However, I'd recommend rsync over mirror if you can use it. I haven't > used mirror as much as rsync, but I've never had a problem with rsync. I am a big rsync fan. However, rsync is a bad choice for this for two reasons.... 1) rsync requires rsync to be installed on both sides. For various reasons rsync is unlikely to be installed on bitsavers. But more importantly... 2) rsync works it's magic and speed savings by copying only the bits inside each file which have changed. That is unlikely to be of any help when you are dealing with static pdf files. If the file changes, it changes as a whole, not just a portion of the file (unlike source code, html documents, etc.). Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 30 10:48:00 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> <006f01c45eb7$7c0142a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <001701c45eb9$a0061390$99100f14@mcothran1> Don't shoot me!!! *hides behind large steel wall* I run my web server / ftp server on Windows 2000 and IIS. I'll hunt for something that I can use on my server. How long does it take your mirroring to run on a typical day? I assume it checks for new / changed / deleted(?) files and pulls only those. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:32 AM Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > I use fmirror > > If you are using freebsd and have the ports collection installed, just do > the following: > > cd /usr/ports/ftp/fmirror > make;make install > > Otherwise download the distribution. Linux RPM's exist as well as generic > source tarballs... google is your friend. > > Then create a fmirror.conf file (mine is in /usr/local/etc) similar to... > > username: whateverusernameAlgaveyou > password: whateveryourpasswordis > host: www.bitsavers.org > remotedir: /Users/aek/web/bitsavers/pdf > localdir: /pathtowhereveryourmirrordirectoryis > exclude: f > ^(\.in\.|\.mirror|core$|MIRROR\.LOG|\.notar|\.message) > exclude: f ^(\.cache|\.zipped|lost\+found|Network Thrash > Folder) > > Then put a line in crontab to run it periodically such as: > 0 2 * * * root /usr/local/bin/fmirror -f > /usr/local/etc/fmirror.conf > > Try to stay away from 2am CDT, thats my timeslot :) > > Jay West > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ashley Carder" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 10:14 AM > Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > > > > Jay, > > > > What do you use to keep your mirror in sync? I need to > > implement something to do that to the mirror that I'm > > maintaining. > > > > Thanks, > > Ashley > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jay West" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:00 AM > > Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > > > > > > > The mirror at classiccmp of bitsavers.org is up and fully in sync with > > Al's > > > site now. You can access it via http://www.classiccmp.org/bitsavers > > > > > > This mirror is updated once a day at 2am CDT. > > > > > > Jay > > > > > > --- > > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > > > > > > > > > > > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From dankolb at ox.compsoc.net Wed Jun 30 10:44:37 2004 From: dankolb at ox.compsoc.net (Dan Kolb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! In-Reply-To: <000c01c45eb8$daeff990$99100f14@mcothran1> References: <200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> <000c01c45eb8$daeff990$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <20040630154437.GB110@hades.eco.li> On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 11:42:30AM -0400, Ashley Carder wrote: > Do you have a link for rsync? http://rsync.samba.org Dan -- We call our dog Egypt, because in every room he leaves a pyramid. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 30 10:46:07 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> <200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <16610.57407.118306.934609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> On Wednesday 30 June 2004 10:14, Ashley Carder wrote: >> Jay, >> >> What do you use to keep your mirror in sync? I need to implement >> something to do that to the mirror that I'm maintaining. Patrick> Probably mirror: Patrick> http://bio-mirror.net:8081/Bio-mirror/biomirror/software/mirror-info.txt Patrick> However, I'd recommend rsync over mirror if you can use it. Patrick> I haven't used mirror as much as rsync, but I've never had a Patrick> problem with rsync. rsync is great. wget works, too. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 11:23:57 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1><200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> <16610.57407.118306.934609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <001001c45ebe$a503bfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> It was written..... > rsync is great. wget works, too. Again, do not use rsync for mirroring static documents. It's whole claim to fame is totally defeated in that environment. Rsync is an incredible tool. But it's NOT the tool for that job. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 11:10:37 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406301626.MAA24673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > You've been watching too much television trash! Actually, no, I haven't. I don't even own a working television, haven't for decades. > But to get to cases, the big difference is that for the most part we > have common customs, common practices and a common language which > makes it simple to do business between states. > [Canadians] even have customs duties and sales taxes when selling > things from one province to another. What are you smoking - and where can I get some? As yet, we are still only one country, and as such, have no customs issues attached to inter-provincial shipping. Sales taxes, yes - I can't remember, do you have federal sales taxes? > The opposite is true in Canada and most other countries. You also > have to do everything in two langauges (by law, no less!). Only in rather special circumstances are you required by law to do anything in both languages. (The major circumstance is if you're a government; I'm not aware of any others, though they may well exist.) Except for governments, in Qu?bec, using any language other than French is not required by law; outside Qu?bec, I am not aware of any laws requiring the use of any particular language. > French Canada (Montreal specificly) was particularly interesting. > They REALLY push the French language there and they are required by > law to greet you in French and to try and initiate the conversation > in French. By law? Did you check this?? If true, it's certainly widely ignored. > I found that they frequently refused to speak English to other > Canadians from outside of Quebec since they expected them to be able > to speak in French. Some of the more arrogant language bigots do. Everywhere has its arrogant bigots - yes, including the US. Fortunately, language bigotry is fading here. In any case, fine, you go stay in your US and enjoy it. Trust me, the rest of the world won't miss you. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 11:28:48 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1><006f01c45eb7$7c0142a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <001701c45eb9$a0061390$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <001601c45ebf$5276d320$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > Don't shoot me!!! *hides behind large steel wall* > I run my web server / ftp server on Windows 2000 and IIS. You have NO idea how bad I am gritting my teeth and holding back. > I'll hunt for something that I can use on my server. Google for "windows ftp mirror", or better yet, search "download.com" and you'll find something. Make sure to select the "freeware" filter setting, otherwise you may get a suprise in a month or so. > How long does it take your mirroring to run on a typical day? Couldn't tell you ... yet... because I just got the sync up last night. But I'm sure it all depends on how much time Al had that particular day to scan stuff :) > I assume it checks for new / changed / deleted(?) files and pulls only > those. I have some very serious bandwidth, and even I would surely not attempt to pull everything every night, unchanged or not. So... yes, it does check for changes only. fmirror is configurable, much moreso than most mirror software I've seen for strategies as to what to update. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Wed Jun 30 11:36:53 2004 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes Message-ID: <0406301636.AA12324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> der Mouse wrote: > I don't even own a working television, > haven't for decades. Wow! I'm not the only one! (Though it hasn't been decades for me yet, as I only stopped having a TV in my home in 2000.) MS From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 12:00:26 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Televisions... In-Reply-To: <0406301636.AA12324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: Let's see...technically I do not have a TV, but I do have at least three computers operational with one or more video inputs some including built in tuners. Being that cable internet access is the fastest affordable method here, that is what I use, and naturally the cards come with built in tuners....so.... From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 11:54:38 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <0406301636.AA12324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0406301636.AA12324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <200406301656.MAA24967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I don't even own a working television, haven't for decades. > Wow! I'm not the only one! Nope! > (Though it hasn't been decades for me yet, as I only stopped having a > TV in my home in 2000.) Well, there were a few years where there was a working TV in my home, but it wasn't mine (and it didn't get used much in any case). My (now-)ex and I attended a conference where she "won" a door prize consisting of a handheld LCD-screen TV. This got parked in a drawer and dragged out maybe twice in the years between then and when we split up.... /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 11:50:41 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <1088604501.2977.325.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630125041.0086bc10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:08 PM 6/30/04 +0000, Jules wrote: >On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 11:58, Joe R. wrote: >> I have found >> that service in some European counties and in some places in Canada is >> LOUSY! They act like they're doing you a favor to wait on you or to sell >> you anything. They only thing that I can says about that is that they would >> not have a job long here with their attitudes. > >Now that's interesting. My view is that they *are* doing you a favour, >just as I'd expect someone to be polite to me if I were serving them in >some way and not take me for granted. I'm not talking about bossing them around or taking them for granted. I'm talking about ordinary manners and reasonable service. THE worst service that I had anywhere in the world was in London. And it wasn't jsut once or twice but it was consistantly bad. In the restraunts you had to wait and wait for them to bring a menu. When they did they just threw it on the table and left without saying a word. The service was just as bad all the way through the meals. Is that they way that you'd treat someone in your home??? Maybe that does highlight a big >difference between the US and European attitudes (plus Austalia and NZ) >to service. > >One thing I do find is that people often visit foreign countries and >expect to be treated just as they're used to at home (I'm not suggesting >that about you, it's just a general observation). For me, part of the >challenge and fun of going overseas is to experience other beliefs, >cultures and ways of doing things, and adjusting to the locals' way of >doing things. > >> French Canada (Montreal >> specificly) was particularly interesting. They REALLY push the French >> language there and they are required by law to greet you in French and to >> try and initiate the conversation in French. > >Presumably because it's French Canada? :-) Is it really FRENCH Canada? If I remember my history, the British took over from the French in the early to mid 1700s! (We call it the French and Indians Wars) Exactly how long are the locals supposed to keep their own language and refuse to speak a common language? Let's see, the US is home to over 200 different American Indian languages and dialects, then add in French (ex-French Canadians from Arcadia that settled in Lousianna), Spanish (this is Florida) then add in all the immgrants; English, Italians, Polish, Russian, Portuguese, Germans, Irish, Scots, French, dozens of African langauges, etc etc etc etc etc etc. We would literally have a land of Babal if everyone only spoke their original language. Since I'm in Florida I guess that means I should speak only Spanish and refuse to speak any other langauge. But wait a minute! What about the people and language that was there before the French Canadians (or Spanish)? People generally take pride >in their language and often don't like others making assumptions about >what language they should speak. (Although I'm not sure how comfortable >I'd be if I were forced to greet people in a particular tongue - I >suppose the intention of the law there is to just try and protect the >local heritage though) Exactly but it's gotten well past that point. As I said, it's now required by law now. It's gotten to the point that it is actually illegal to post a sign on English! And I've seen many cases where they would actually refuse to speak to someone in English even though they spoke it perfectly well. That isn't protecting your heritage, it's just plain rude. As a footnote, I'll just say that they (the French Canadians) sure didn't give any consideration to the rights or desires of the ORIGINAL inhabitants (the Mohawk Indians). I've been to their reservation south of Montreal and seen what a dump it is and how they've lost everything. Joe > >cheers, > >Jules > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 11:59:52 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States In-Reply-To: <1088604798.2977.329.camel@weka.localdomain> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630125952.008a96c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 02:13 PM 6/30/04 +0000, you wrote: >On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 13:53, Joe R. wrote: >> I picked up >> some interesting looks parts out of a scrap pile a few weeks ago and >> starting searching the net for information about them. The first thing that >> I found was that they are on the restricted export list and are classified >> as munitions (there goes E-bay)! They're actually quartz rate sensors >> (QRS11) made by Systron Donner. >> ( for those that are >> interested.) Basicly a solid state gyro-scope. The ironic thing is that the >> Japanese are now building almost identical devices into some of their cars >> to control skids. > >Heh, that makes me think of: > > http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile Holy Cow! I didn't realize that this had hit the news. A friend of mine sold some GPS gear to someone in NZ and has been vistied by the FBI about it several times since then. They told him that the buyer was building a cruise missile so it has to be the same guy. FWIW the GPS stuff that my friend sold was nothing special. It was made for tracking delivery trucks and such. > >and one of the news stories covering the shutdown of the project at: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3302763.stm > >With a bit of ingenuity I suppose it's surprising what can be done >whilst still technically operating within the law. You'd be surprised how easy it to to run afoul of the law too! Especially since 9/11. And with the "Patriot Act" you don't even have to break a law, just do something that some bureaucrat doesn't like and you can be locked up indefinitely without charges, a hearing or even access to a lawyer. Count me as an EX-fireworks maker! Joe > >cheers > >Jules > > From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 12:08:16 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: <16610.49712.172177.492410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630130816.008f6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 05:08 PM 6/30/04 +0200, you wrote: >On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Hans> I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they >> Hans> are unable to see the advantages of selling internationally.... >> >> Hans> The eBay "will ship to only" is >> Hans> something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential >> Hans> market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for >> Hans> shipping and that might put them off but why shut them out >> Hans> completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment >> Hans> cannot be that great, at least it isn't in my experience here >> Hans> in Europe. >> >> Unfortunately you're mistaken (for the case of exports from the USA). >> Shipping things may be easy if you don't bother studying the export >> laws, but if you DO make the effort to learn and understand them and >> comply, you'll find it is not easy at all. >> >> I spent several days in a course on this topic back in 2000, and >> naturally things are more complicated now. >Thats why smart people live in countries that are less restrictive >on what can be exported "in the People's Best Interest". :) > >(no, Hans, France is not one of em either ;-) > >Seriously though. Yes, the export stuff is an issue in the U.S., >although so far, most sellers basically did not want to bother >with the extra forms, the ".. possibility of me having to pay >taxes or duties for your country..." and so on. And, face it, >most U.S. citizens don't even KNOW where, say, Holland is. > >(no flames on this last observation, please, flame me off-list >if you feel like it..) > >And ya know what? Once I tell em I actually live in the U.S., but >am "sent out" to Europe... they're all of a sudden OK with sending >it to Holland again. Even though they need exact instructions on >how to fill out those damn forms ;-) Exact instructions? Let's see; shippers name and address (I think they can figure that one out), Addressies name and address (that shouldn't be too hard, after all they are mailing the item to them), then name of the item and it's value (can't be too hard, they did just sell it on E-bay), next weather it's a gift, sample or merchandise (gee, that's tough but since they SOLD it I'd say it must be merchandise), then finally sign and date it. This must be the rough part, they either don't know their own name or they can't read. Seriously, what's the difficulty? Joe > >Just my observation, being a multi-country hopper.. > >--f > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 30 12:10:30 2004 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <0406301636.AA12324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200406301656.MAA24967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00fa01c45ec5$258d4500$0500fea9@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "der Mouse" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 12:54 PM Subject: Re: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes > >> I don't even own a working television, haven't for decades. > > Wow! I'm not the only one! > > Nope! > > > (Though it hasn't been decades for me yet, as I only stopped having a > > TV in my home in 2000.) > > Well, there were a few years where there was a working TV in my home, > but it wasn't mine (and it didn't get used much in any case). > > My (now-)ex and I attended a conference where she "won" a door prize > consisting of a handheld LCD-screen TV. This got parked in a drawer > and dragged out maybe twice in the years between then and when we split > up.... > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > So what is wrong with having a working TV? While I have not watched network TV much since Seinfeld went off the air, I do like the History Channel, Comedy Central, and HBO. From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 30 12:22:41 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <16610.49712.172177.492410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3.0.6.32.20040630130816.008f6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <16610.63201.840501.731973@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: >> And ya know what? Once I tell em I actually live in the U.S., but >> am "sent out" to Europe... they're all of a sudden OK with sending >> it to Holland again. Even though they need exact instructions on >> how to fill out those damn forms ;-) Joe> Exact instructions? Let's see; shippers name and address (I Joe> think they can figure that one out), Addressies name and address Joe> (that shouldn't be too hard, after all they are mailing the item Joe> to them), then name of the item and it's value (can't be too Joe> hard, they did just sell it on E-bay), next weather it's a gift, Joe> sample or merchandise (gee, that's tough but since they SOLD it Joe> I'd say it must be merchandise), then finally sign and date Joe> it. This must be the rough part, they either don't know their Joe> own name or they can't read. Joe> Seriously, what's the difficulty? Did they check the recipient's name against the denied parties list? Do they even know what a denied parties list is? Did they check the export category of the item being exported, and verify what the export rules are that apply to *that* category for *that* destination country and type of recipient? That's the difficulty. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 12:28:00 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com><00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1><006f01c45eb7$7c0142a0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <001701c45eb9$a0061390$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <007101c45ec7$97820540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> You wrote.... > Don't shoot me!!! *hides behind large steel wall* > I run my web server / ftp server on Windows 2000 and IIS. I won't shoot you... as long as you're not trying to provide public content on an asymetric connection like DSL or cable modem. In that case, your users might if outbound is 128k :) Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 12:28:17 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <006501c45eb6$7832a3e0$0500fea9@game> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630132817.008f5d90@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 11:25 AM 6/30/04 -0400, Ted wrote: > > >I wonder if its is ten times easier getting items into the country then it >is getting them out (referring to the US)? > That seems to be the case. I've had many cases where items took MONTHS to clear customs in Europe but I've never had a delay of anything coming into the US. Also the customs duties in many European countries can only be called draconian. I've never had to pay customs for anything that I've brought or shipped into the US. Canada is another good example of this. When we worked in Canada they acted deathly afraid that we might leave our tools there. They often made us pay a dond of several thousand dollars to insure that we took our tools with us when we left. Joe From jpl15 at panix.com Wed Jun 30 12:34:59 2004 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Intriguing stuff on eBay Message-ID: first this URL - for an obscure paper tape reader manual from 1976: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=67387&item=5103748667&rd=1 and in the body of the text is this bit of Tantalization: "I will be auctioning a number of vintage computer related items (manuals, ads, hardware and software) over the next few weeks. They are all from the estate of an former JPL employee. I will gladly combine shipping if the items can be packed together. I will also allow pick up for certain items. Please email for details. " Might be worth an enquiry in the SoCal area Cheers John From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 12:40:13 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! In-Reply-To: <007101c45ec7$97820540$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: >>> I won't shoot you... as long as you're not trying to >>> provide public content on an asymetric connection like DSL >>> or cable modem. In that case, your users might if outbound >>> is 128k :) Not only that, but it is a violation of most of the TOS agreements. The local cable company [Long Island CableVision] just went on a spree shutting down anyone who had ports 21 [FTP], 80 [HTTP] and a bunch more open! If the content appeared to be "business" related, the users were sent a bill for a retroactive "commercial" upgrade [this is still being fought!] From hgieske at seafarers.org Wed Jun 30 11:54:38 2004 From: hgieske at seafarers.org (Harry Gieske) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Sony smc-70 computer Message-ID: <000a01c45ec2$f177c080$826110ac@Seafarers.Local> I have a working Sony SMC-70 computer with the manuals and many extras that needs a good home. hkagieske@nexet.net From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 12:47:11 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: US Exports In-Reply-To: <000a01c45ec2$f177c080$826110ac@Seafarers.Local> Message-ID: And be sure to adheare to http://www.batnet.com/oikoumene/SftwareEU.html if you export any software outside the US... From pkoning at equallogic.com Wed Jun 30 12:50:50 2004 From: pkoning at equallogic.com (Paul Koning) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: US Exports References: <000a01c45ec2$f177c080$826110ac@Seafarers.Local> Message-ID: <16610.64890.378252.661031@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: David> And be sure to adheare to David> http://www.batnet.com/oikoumene/SftwareEU.html if you export David> any software outside the US... Better not. That document is dated 1995. It may have been accurate then (although it really makes more sense to get this sort of information from the source). But it most definitely has NO connection to reality anymore, and in fact hasn't for at least 4 years. paul From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 30 12:59:38 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: Message-ID: <000a01c45ecc$033a0590$99100f14@mcothran1> I've always run small scale web sites, FTP sites, etc., and never had any complaints. I've talked to the local folks at the cable company and they said it wasn't a problem to run small personal sites as long as I didn't suck up all the bandwidth. If I ever start getting lots of people hitting my servers, I can upgrade to business class for about $25 more per month and not get hollered at. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: RE: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > >>> I won't shoot you... as long as you're not trying to > >>> provide public content on an asymetric connection like DSL > >>> or cable modem. In that case, your users might if outbound > >>> is 128k :) > > > Not only that, but it is a violation of most of the TOS agreements. The > local cable company [Long Island CableVision] just went on a spree shutting > down anyone who had ports 21 [FTP], 80 [HTTP] and a bunch more open! If the > content appeared to be "business" related, the users were sent a bill for a > retroactive "commercial" upgrade [this is still being fought!] > > > > From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 13:07:26 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: US Exports In-Reply-To: <16610.64890.378252.661031@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Paul, While that link is indeed old, the GTDA, GTDU and other regulations still stand. There were some good sessions on both practical and "letter of the law" issues at the last PDC conference. David >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:51 PM >>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >>> Subject: Re: US Exports >>> >>> >>>>> "David" == David V Corbin writes: >>> >>> David> And be sure to adheare to >>> David> http://www.batnet.com/oikoumene/SftwareEU.html if >>> you export David> any software outside the US... >>> >>> Better not. That document is dated 1995. It may have been >>> accurate then (although it really makes more sense to get >>> this sort of information from the source). But it most >>> definitely has NO connection to reality anymore, and in >>> fact hasn't for at least 4 years. >>> >>> paul >>> From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 13:00:00 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <000a01c45ecc$033a0590$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <009701c45ecc$1007c320$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Ashley wrote... > I've always run small scale web sites, FTP sites, etc., and never had > any complaints. I've talked to the local folks at the cable company and > they said it wasn't a problem to run small personal sites as long as I > didn't suck up all the bandwidth. If I ever start getting lots of people > hitting my servers, I can upgrade to business class for about $25 more > per month and not get hollered at. But the question is... what kind of connection is it and is it asymetric? Most typical consumer grade connections are asymetric, meaning you typically get around 128kbps outbound, but a much higher rate (768kbps or 1mbps) inbound. This is GREAT for websurfing, downloading mp3's, etc. But if people try to get files off your server and your outbound speed is 128kbps, they're screwed for decent size documents. 128kbps is effectively two analog dialup modems worth of bandwidth. Makes a 8mb pdf file painful. Now if you've got over 1mbps outbound AND inbound, it shouldn't be too bad. Jay West --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 13:09:17 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! In-Reply-To: <000a01c45ecc$033a0590$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: Here "consumer" is $49.95 / month / computer. Usage of a router is technically a violation, but is not being enforced. "business" is $279 / month + $29 / month / additional computer . >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:00 PM >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! >>> >>> I've always run small scale web sites, FTP sites, etc., and >>> never had any complaints. I've talked to the local folks >>> at the cable company and they said it wasn't a problem to >>> run small personal sites as long as I didn't suck up all >>> the bandwidth. If I ever start getting lots of people >>> hitting my servers, I can upgrade to business class for >>> about $25 more per month and not get hollered at. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "David V. Corbin" >>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:40 PM >>> Subject: RE: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! >>> >>> >>> > >>> I won't shoot you... as long as you're not trying to provide >>> > >>> public content on an asymetric connection like DSL or >>> cable modem. >>> > >>> In that case, your users might if outbound is 128k :) >>> > >>> > >>> > Not only that, but it is a violation of most of the TOS >>> agreements. >>> > The local cable company [Long Island CableVision] just >>> went on a spree >>> shutting >>> > down anyone who had ports 21 [FTP], 80 [HTTP] and a bunch >>> more open! >>> > If >>> the >>> > content appeared to be "business" related, the users were >>> sent a bill >>> > for >>> a >>> > retroactive "commercial" upgrade [this is still being fought!] >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >>> From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 30 13:30:43 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: Message-ID: <004001c45ed0$5af1a190$99100f14@mcothran1> I talked to a salesman a while back and he was going to "give me a deal" on business class since I had been a customer for so long, with a static IP, for $79.99 per month with 1.5+mbps download and 1.5mbps upload, more guaranteed bandwidth if I wanted to pay more I'll have to run some tests to see what the upload speed currently is. The last time I checked, it varied anywhere from ~400k to over 2mbps. The salesman calls me periodically to see if I'm ready to upgrade, but I haven't done so yet. My ISP's Acceptable Use Policy does not explicitly prohibit running web / ftp / mail servers and there is no mention of anything like this in their "policy". The only questionable item that I might have (which agrees with what the folks at the ISP's office said) is this bullet item on the "Operator Acceptable Use Policy": * The ISP Service may not be used to engage in any conduct that interferes with Operator's ability to provide service to others, including the use of excessive bandwidth. I've been running small scale web / ftp / mail servers with this ISP since 1997 or 1998 and have never been scolded yet, except for once when I was learning how to set up a mail server and I forgot to turn off SMTP relaying. Someone started relaying porn spam using my SMTP server and I quickly turned off relaying wthout proper authentication. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "David V. Corbin" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:09 PM Subject: RE: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > Here "consumer" is $49.95 / month / computer. Usage of a router is > technically a violation, but is not being enforced. "business" is $279 / > month + $29 / month / additional computer . > > > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > >>> [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ashley Carder > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:00 PM > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > >>> > >>> I've always run small scale web sites, FTP sites, etc., and > >>> never had any complaints. I've talked to the local folks > >>> at the cable company and they said it wasn't a problem to > >>> run small personal sites as long as I didn't suck up all > >>> the bandwidth. If I ever start getting lots of people > >>> hitting my servers, I can upgrade to business class for > >>> about $25 more per month and not get hollered at. > >>> > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "David V. Corbin" > >>> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >>> > >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:40 PM > >>> Subject: RE: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I won't shoot you... as long as you're not trying to provide > >>> > >>> public content on an asymetric connection like DSL or > >>> cable modem. > >>> > >>> In that case, your users might if outbound is 128k :) > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Not only that, but it is a violation of most of the TOS > >>> agreements. > >>> > The local cable company [Long Island CableVision] just > >>> went on a spree > >>> shutting > >>> > down anyone who had ports 21 [FTP], 80 [HTTP] and a bunch > >>> more open! > >>> > If > >>> the > >>> > content appeared to be "business" related, the users were > >>> sent a bill > >>> > for > >>> a > >>> > retroactive "commercial" upgrade [this is still being fought!] > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> > From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 13:18:06 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630125041.0086bc10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040630125041.0086bc10@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406301825.OAA25440@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > It's gotten to the point that it is actually illegal to post a sign > on English! Not quite. French must be given prominence, I think it is. You can put up all the English signs you like, provided there are more prominent and otherwise comparable French signs as well. Exactly what "more prominent" (or whatever the actual language is) means has been in question; it usually ends up meaning "larger font" in practice. Also, this applies only to businesses putting up signs for their businesses. You can tack up a garage-sale sign, or pretty much anything else individual and informal, in English only, and the worst that's likely to happen is it may get vandalized if you do it in too violently francophone a neighbourhood. Furthermore, the language requires that French be given prominence over other languages, but it's enforced selectively against English. > And I've seen many cases where they would actually refuse to speak to > someone in English even though they spoke it perfectly well. That > isn't protecting your heritage, it's just plain rude. Agreed. I think linguistic bigotry (notably the linguistic bigotry enshrined in law, and especially the selective enforcement I referred to above) is a Bad Thing. If I were the activist type, I'd be trying to get it changed - after all, it has basically achieved its goal, that of overturning the "English oppressing the French" effect. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 13:25:57 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <00fa01c45ec5$258d4500$0500fea9@game> References: <0406301636.AA12324@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <200406301656.MAA24967@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <00fa01c45ec5$258d4500$0500fea9@game> Message-ID: <200406301835.OAA25521@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>>> I don't even own a working television, haven't for decades. >>> Wow! I'm not the only one! >> [...] > So what is wrong with having a working TV? Nothing, per se. I just don't find enough on the air that I consider worth watching to be worth getting/maintaining one. I'd guess I watch less than a hundred hours of TV a year, with (almost?) all of that being high-level hockey or football (soccer, to North Americans). ("High-level" means I don't watch regular season, just things like the Stanley Cup playoffs or the World Cup.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cb at mythtech.net Wed Jun 30 13:39:49 2004 From: cb at mythtech.net (chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:46:59 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! Message-ID: >Here "consumer" is $49.95 / month / computer. Usage of a router is >technically a violation, but is not being enforced. "business" is $279 / >month + $29 / month / additional computer . WOW... they really nail you on business in Long Island. CableVision in NJ (at least the Oakland office) does their business class cable internet thru a company called "Lightspeed" (maybe a division of Cablevision, I don't know). They want $99/mn for business class. However, that is per computer (as all cable companies like trying to do). I haven't read the TOS for them to see if that per computer is real, or just a scam. I have read the Cablevision TOS for residential ($50/mn) and although they plaster all over the place it is per computer, the actual TOS specifically states that it is per public IP and that you are in fact free to run a local NAT router and connect as many computers internally as you please. The only "penalty" is you void your rights to support until only one computer is connected again (so basically, they say go ahead and do it, but you are on your own if you do so). -chris From auryn at GCI-Net.com Wed Jun 30 13:40:23 2004 From: auryn at GCI-Net.com (D Yuniskis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: NCD X Terminals Message-ID: <000901c45ed1$b72d6d80$de01000a@xxyy> Greetings! I am trying to finish documenting NCD keyboards and there's one area that has proven to be quite elusive... I don't expect to uncover any/many answers here, either -- but, it's worth a shot... Has anyone ever *seen* a "secure keyboard" for an NCD? Does it *look* the same as any other keyboard? If so, *which*? Or, was this an option that could be incorporated into *any* of the standard keyboards? It is my understanding that there were no other "magic keys" *added* to the keyboard to get these features; is that true? What was the procedure used to secure and unsecure the NCD? Presumably, the keyboard identified itself to the terminal in such a way that the terminal would add extra "security" options to the various menus. Were these user-visbile changes limited to the boot monitor? Or, were there consequences evident in NCDware? Are there any markings on the keyboard that identify it as such (e.g., a different model number, etc.)? Photos would be *excellent*! Extra credit question: what is the keyboard code that it delivers to the terminal to identify itself? Thanks! --don From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 13:50:39 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <004001c45ed0$5af1a190$99100f14@mcothran1> Message-ID: <00b101c45ed3$2388e120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> > with 1.5+mbps download and 1.5mbps upload, more That's not so bad. Most kewl. You're all set! Jay --- [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] From waltje at pdp11.nl Wed Jun 30 13:57:06 2004 From: waltje at pdp11.nl (Fred N. van Kempen) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <200406301626.MAA24673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, der Mouse wrote: > Actually, no, I haven't. I don't even own a working television, > haven't for decades. Good stuff. Gives you lots of time for more interesting hobbies, such as dragging 400-lbs computers around. I do have two TV's (and all that comes with it), but only for my girlfriend, and for watching DVDs. > > things from one province to another. > What are you smoking - and where can I get some? Probably part of our (Dutch) national export? :) > > The opposite is true in Canada and most other countries. You also > > have to do everything in two langauges (by law, no less!). > > Only in rather special circumstances are you required by law to do > anything in both languages. (The major circumstance is if you're a > government; I'm not aware of any others, though they may well exist.) > Except for governments, in Québec, using any language other than French > is not required by law; outside Québec, I am not aware of any laws > requiring the use of any particular language. Most European countries have a "federal" (== national) taxing system, which includes sales tax. Revenue from that flows back to teh various provinces ("states") by ratio of their industry numbers. So, provinces with little commercial activity will get less of that total revenue than a busy province, such as North Holland (in which Amsterdam lies.) This makes sense: that same total sales tax is "brought in" by that same industry, so the division is more or less fair. > > I found that they frequently refused to speak English to other > > Canadians from outside of Quebec since they expected them to be able > > to speak in French. > > Some of the more arrogant language bigots do. Everywhere has its > arrogant bigots - yes, including the US. Fortunately, language bigotry > is fading here. THis happened to me, too.. sorry, Mouse. They do seem to have a problem with American-sounding people (like me, since I sound like an American, not a Dutchie ;-) --f From wacarder at usit.net Wed Jun 30 14:13:52 2004 From: wacarder at usit.net (Ashley Carder) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! References: <004001c45ed0$5af1a190$99100f14@mcothran1> <00b101c45ed3$2388e120$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <008501c45ed6$6223c460$99100f14@mcothran1> .... if I decide to upgrade. .... and I can't seem to convince myself to pay the additional $35 to upgrade if I can continue running non-commercial sites with decent bandwidth both ways and not get scolded by the ISP. Ashley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:50 PM Subject: Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! > > with 1.5+mbps download and 1.5mbps upload, more > That's not so bad. Most kewl. You're all set! > > Jay > --- > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus] > From donm at cts.com Wed Jun 30 14:18:54 2004 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 manuals? In-Reply-To: <20040630062757.9C05E790052@ws1-14.us4.outblaze.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Jun 2004, wai-sun chia wrote: > Hello list, > Anybody has the manuals (tif/pdf) or software (RX50 images) for > the DEC Rainbow 100? Are TeleDisk images for the disks OK? - don > Al@bitsavers.org doesn't seem to have anything on the Rainbow... > > Thanks. > /wai-sun > -- > ___________________________________________________________ > Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com > http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm > > > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jun 30 14:26:50 2004 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630125952.008a96c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040630095303.008bab70@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040630125952.008a96c0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <1088623609.2977.390.camel@weka.localdomain> On Wed, 2004-06-30 at 16:59, Joe R. wrote: > At 02:13 PM 6/30/04 +0000, you wrote: > > > > http://www.interestingprojects.com/cruisemissile > > Holy Cow! I didn't realize that this had hit the news. A friend of mine > sold some GPS gear to someone in NZ and has been vistied by the FBI about > it several times since then. They told him that the buyer was building a > cruise missile so it has to be the same guy. FWIW the GPS stuff that my > friend sold was nothing special. It was made for tracking delivery trucks > and such. Ha ha - nice to hear a bit more about events. I think the whole story went largely unnoticed at the time - I just picked up on it as I'm a big fan of off-the-wall backyard engineering. I seem to recall the same chap in NZ builds a lot of his own jet engines and bolts them to various things. He seems quite the creative type (and seems reasonably sure of what he's doing) > >With a bit of ingenuity I suppose it's surprising what can be done > >whilst still technically operating within the law. > You'd be surprised how easy it to to run afoul of the law too! Especially > since 9/11. And with the "Patriot Act" you don't even have to break a law, > just do something that some bureaucrat doesn't like and you can be locked > up indefinitely without charges, a hearing or even access to a lawyer. > Count me as an EX-fireworks maker! Yikes. It's not quite that bad here, but it's heading that way. I'd be interested to see a report on how terrorist attempted attacks have apparently increased compared to how much in the way of extra resources are now deployed to discover such plots. Personally I think I'd rather live how I wanted without all the extra rules and regs and just take my chances - I feel I worry just as much about being hit by a car, caught in a house fire or something like that as getting a bomb drop on my head (which isn't worrying at all to be honest - if it happens, it happens...) cheers Jules From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Jun 30 14:28:12 2004 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync! In-Reply-To: "Jay West" "Re: bitsavers mirror is up and in sync!" (Jun 30, 11:23) References: <005701c45eb3$0d343a20$033310ac@kwcorp.com> <00a601c45eb4$fd80afd0$99100f14@mcothran1> <200406301032.41421.pat@computer-refuge.org> <16610.57407.118306.934609@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <001001c45ebe$a503bfa0$033310ac@kwcorp.com> Message-ID: <10406302028.ZM2293@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Jun 30, 11:23, Jay West wrote: > It was written..... > > rsync is great. wget works, too. > > Again, do not use rsync for mirroring static documents. It's whole claim to > fame is totally defeated in that environment. > > Rsync is an incredible tool. But it's NOT the tool for that job. Why not? If it's already got the document, it won't fetch it again. We use rsync for the official mirrors of PUPS for that reason. Most of the stuff doesn't change. Al's site is even better; it gets added to, but files rarely change. As I understand it, fmirror will be no more efficient for that, becasue it still has to fetch the whole of a new document, jusrt as rsync would. I wouldn't use wget, though; it's fine to do a one-off fetch, but not so good for keeping up to date on a regular basis (actually, it might work quite well for bitsavers, but for sites where files change). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From charlesb at otcgaming.net Wed Jun 30 14:45:00 2004 From: charlesb at otcgaming.net (charlesb@otcgaming.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: NCD X Terminals References: <000901c45ed1$b72d6d80$de01000a@xxyy> Message-ID: <006801c45edd$d8978ad0$7dc3033e@thunder> > Extra credit question: what is the keyboard code that it delivers > to the terminal to identify itself? wouldnt that be the normal ENQ code? however, information may be helpful from the NCD X terminal howto for linux http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/NCD-X-Terminal.html Charles 'Thunder' Blackburn Quake3 Co-Lead http://www.tsncentral.com The Leader in the E-Sports Revolution --- A: Top Posters Q: What's the most annoying thing in a mailing list? From auryn at GCI-Net.com Wed Jun 30 15:30:08 2004 From: auryn at GCI-Net.com (D Yuniskis) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: NCD X Terminals References: <000901c45ed1$b72d6d80$de01000a@xxyy> <006801c45edd$d8978ad0$7dc3033e@thunder> Message-ID: <000d01c45ee1$0a7c7e40$de01000a@xxyy> Greetings! > > Extra credit question: what is the keyboard code that it delivers > > to the terminal to identify itself? > > wouldnt that be the normal ENQ code? Each particular "flavor" of keyboard provides a unique identifier to the terminal to enable the terminal to adjust to different key layots, etc. I *assume* one (or more?) of these codes says, in effect, "security keyboard" (instead of "Sun style keyboard" or "Nokia layout" or....). However, it is possible that NCD has extended/bastardized the keyboard protocol to implement this in some other way, entirely. > however, information may be helpful from the NCD X terminal howto for linux > > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO/other-formats/html_single/NCD-X- Terminal.html With respect, that's a pretty lightweight document. *Literally* a "How To"... "Do this, then this, then this..." like a "quick start guide" -- not a real "reference". It doesn't cover things like the format of the internal NVRAM, types of interfaces available, running off a PROM-based server, etc. I've grep'ed all of the NCD material I have available as well as web searches. It appears these little details can only be ascertained empirically... I suspect most of this information has kippled... Thanks! --don From whdawson at localisps.net Wed Jun 30 16:02:55 2004 From: whdawson at localisps.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <88172dc74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> Message-ID: Phil wrote: > I think I've still got a power supply somewhere that has a flaky 5V > regulator. Sometimes the regulator starts up fine, then runs for > hours. Other times it just sits there dead - strangely enough, drumming one's > fingers on the casing usually gets the regulator to start. I'll fix the dry > joint on the PCB when my Farnell L30B bench PSU dies. Speaking of which, does > anyone have a service manual for the Farnell L30B power supply? > One of these days, I'll build a custom power supply. At the very least, the > L30B needs its switches, one of the meters and all of the potentiometers > replacing. Oh, and I need to find two self-tapping (?) screws to hold the > side panels on. Bleagh. Perhaps a crude fix for the flaky 5V supply would be to add 5 self tapping screws to the area where the finger drumming works. Although I'm sure Tony would point out that what's really needed are 4 self tapping screws and a thumbscrew... Bill From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 16:23:34 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <200406301626.MAA24673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630172334.008f9160@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 12:10 PM 6/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >> You've been watching too much television trash! > >Actually, no, I haven't. I don't even own a working television, >haven't for decades. > >> But to get to cases, the big difference is that for the most part we >> have common customs, common practices and a common language which >> makes it simple to do business between states. > >> [Canadians] even have customs duties and sales taxes when selling >> things from one province to another. > >What are you smoking - and where can I get some? Downtown Montreal. > >As yet, we are still only one country, and as such, have no customs >issues attached to inter-provincial shipping. Sales taxes, yes - I >can't remember, do you have federal sales taxes? Nope, but they keep trying. > >> The opposite is true in Canada and most other countries. You also >> have to do everything in two langauges (by law, no less!). > >Only in rather special circumstances are you required by law to do >anything in both languages. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That's funny! EVERYTHING that we did was in both languages and every offical, semi-offical or just government document that I saw was in both langauges. Even brochures, labels in stores, etc etc were in both languages, Even the traffic signs were! I still get products made in Canada or ones that might go to the Canadian market and all of the packaging and instructions are in both languages. I'm sure that everyone on this list that's in the US can vouch for that. But in any case, you've proved my point. Many people in the US doen't want to deal with other countries because of the language (and other) problems. (The major circumstance is if you're a >government; I'm not aware of any others, though they may well exist.) >Except for governments, in Qu?bec, using any language other than French >is not required by law; outside Qu?bec, I am not aware of any laws >requiring the use of any particular language. > >> French Canada (Montreal specificly) was particularly interesting. >> They REALLY push the French language there and they are required by >> law to greet you in French and to try and initiate the conversation >> in French. > >By law? Did you check this?? I certainly did. I checked into a lot of Canadian laws before I took the job up there. There was a strong possiblity that they were going to move me and my familty there semi-permanently. One of the reasons that I didn't move there and only took temporary assignments was that my two children would have HAD to go to a French school. That's another one of the French preference laws. If your children haven't started school before you move to Quebec then they MUST go to a French speaking school regardless of where you're from or what language is spoken at home. > If true, it's certainly widely ignored. It might be now but it wasn't when I was there. In fact, one shop owner in Montreal was arrested for having English signs up in his store window while I was there. It made the news all over Canada. But since you don't own a TV I guess you don't know what's going on, do you? > >> I found that they frequently refused to speak English to other >> Canadians from outside of Quebec since they expected them to be able >> to speak in French. > >Some of the more arrogant language bigots do. Everywhere has its >arrogant bigots - yes, including the US. Fortunately, language bigotry >is fading here. It wasn't even as much bigotry as stubborness. Ever since the French Canadians arm twisted Canada declared that it was a dual language country, the French Canadians in Quebec have been trying to force the rest of Canada to speak French! > >In any case, fine, you go stay in your US and enjoy it. Trust me, the >rest of the world won't miss you. Right! That's why I been called three times by the company that I contracted to (Oerlikon), twice by the DND (Department of National Defense) and once by Spar Aerospace and offered jobs! Can you say the same? Oops, I left out a couple of offers from Ditmaco. Joe From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Jun 30 17:26:56 2004 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630172334.008f9160@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <200406301626.MAA24673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20040630173457.03fa6440@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe R. may have mentioned these words (in response to der Mouse, however, the attribution got b0rked by the time it hit my mailer...) : > >What are you smoking - and where can I get some? > > Downtown Montreal. Or (presumably) just about anywhere in Ontario, as it's "legal for personal use" there now. Of course, so is gay marriages... How the heck is that gonna affect NAFTA?!?!?!? ;^P > >> The opposite is true in Canada and most other countries. You also > >> have to do everything in two langauges (by law, no less!). > > > >Only in rather special circumstances are you required by law to do > >anything in both languages. If by "special circumstances" you mean: "Print Something" then yes, you'd be right. ;-) > Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. That's funny! EVERYTHING that we did was in both >languages and every offical, semi-offical or just government document that >I saw was in both langauges. Even brochures, labels in stores, etc etc were >in both languages, Even the traffic signs were! I still get products made >in Canada or ones that might go to the Canadian market and all of the >packaging and instructions are in both languages. I'm sure that everyone on >this list that's in the US can vouch for that. Um... no. Wait - reread - *everyone on this list* --> Otay, maybe, assuming _everyone_ on this list could buy a clue given $50USD or less. Believe me, per capita here in the US (especially the Southern states) more than 50% of the population has no clue that a country named Canada even exists, let alone it's location. When I was in AIT for the US Army (secondary job schooling after boot camp (infantry training)) at Fort Gordon, Georgia (near Augusta) I went to my Uncle's wedding near Detroit for a weekend. I got some Canadian money (paper & coin) from my brother at that time, "just to have a little fun." Of the people I showed when I got back, over 75% of my unit 1) never saw Canadian money (not too surprising), 2) didn't know where Canada is (fairly surprising), 3) didn't believe me a country named Canada even *existed*, let alone in North America, and refused to acknowledge that the money came anywhere but out of a game box. (Totally sad.) The *only* person who could name the monarch on the money (with or without reading it) was a person from Wisconsin. I even met 2 people *born and raised* in Michigan that didn't know there was a second half of Michigan north of the Mackinac Bridge! One wouldn't believe me after I showed him a state map! Never underestimate the cluelessness of the standard population of the US... > >> I found that they frequently refused to speak English to other > >> Canadians from outside of Quebec since they expected them to be able > >> to speak in French. > > > >Some of the more arrogant language bigots do. Everywhere has its > >arrogant bigots - yes, including the US. Fortunately, language bigotry > >is fading here. Are you talking over the last 5 years, or the last 25? If the former, maybe. Haven't done *that* much travelling in Canada as of late. 12-15 years ago, when I worked for a US-based Duty Free store in Sault Ste. Marie, MI I met a *lot* of language bigots... Funny, most (read: All but 1 couple) people got irate with me when I *very politely* told them that I didn't speak any French. Of course, I did it in German... ;-) > >In any case, fine, you go stay in your US and enjoy it. Trust me, the > >rest of the world won't miss you. If the US is so bad, why is it that 60% of the Canadian population lives within 40km of the US border? ;-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Randomization is better!!! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 17:13:48 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20040630172334.008f9160@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <3.0.6.32.20040630172334.008f9160@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <200406302234.SAA26225@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> The opposite is true in Canada and most other countries. You also >>> have to do everything in two langauges (by law, no less!). >> Only in rather special circumstances are you required by law to do >> anything in both languages. > EVERYTHING that we did was in both languages and every offical, > semi-offical or just government document that I saw was in both > langauges. Certainly. A great deal more is bilingual than is required by law to be, though. > But in any case, you've proved my point. Many people in the US > doen't want to deal with other countries because of the language (and > other) problems. Oh, I know. Their loss. They're welcome to crawl back into their insular little hole and pull it in after them. >>> [...] they are required by law to greet you in French and to try >>> and initiate the conversation in French. >> By law? Did you check this?? > I certainly did. I checked into a lot of Canadian laws [...] Well, that would be a Qu?bec law, not a Canadian law, but that's really nitpicking. :-) > That's another one of the French preference laws. If your children > haven't started school before you move to Quebec then they MUST go to > a French speaking school regardless of where you're from or what > language is spoken at home. >> If true, [the "must greet in French" law is] certainly widely >> ignored. > It might be now but it wasn't when I was there. When was that? I suspect that your description would have been on the mark some twenty or thirty years ago but is very out of date today. > In fact, one shop owner in Montreal was arrested for having English > signs up in his store window while I was there. It made the news all > over Canada. But since you don't own a TV I guess you don't know > what's going on, do you? My dear friend, I live and work in downtown Montr?al. I think I know what is going on here (as opposed to what *was* going on here) better than you, describing your what, decades-ago? experience, do. Yes, I heard of such an event - occurring in the '80s or maybe late '70s. I was writing about today's Montreal, not twenty years ago's. >> Fortunately, language bigotry is fading here. > It wasn't even as much bigotry as stubborness. Well, it quacked like bigotry and waddled like bigotry.... > Ever since the French Canadians arm twisted Canada declared that it > was a dual language country, the French Canadians in Quebec have been > trying to force the rest of Canada to speak French! And they've been having a lot less success than the anglicization of Quebec has been. Basically all native Montrealers, and an awful lot of the imports like me, are passably competent in both languages. I came to Montreal in September 1980. Sometime in the early '80s, I was in some public place chatting with an acquaintance (in English) and a bystander - a complete stranger - snapped "Parles fran?ais!" ("Speak French!") at us - or rather, at one of us - and stomped away. I can't see such a thing happening today. The grudge that fueled the linguistic bigotry is now just that, a grudge without the substance behind it that there once was, and without that substance to drive it, it's dying. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 17:37:06 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20040630173457.03fa6440@mail.30below.com> References: <200406301626.MAA24673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20040630173457.03fa6440@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200406302243.SAA26269@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> Some of the more arrogant language bigots do. Everywhere has its >>> arrogant bigots - yes, including the US. Fortunately, language >>> bigotry is fading here. > Are you talking over the last 5 years, or the last 25? Both, actually, but perhaps more over the last ten than the previous ten. (Also, it's dying, but not yet dead; there are still vandals who spraypaint over the STOP on ARRET/STOP signs and the like, but not nearly as many as twenty or even ten years ago.) > 12-15 years ago, when I worked for a US-based Duty Free store in > Sault Ste. Marie, MI I met a *lot* of language bigots... Funny, most > (read: All but 1 couple) people got irate with me when I *very > politely* told them that I didn't speak any French. Of course, I did > it in German... ;-) You, my dear Herr Merchberger, have a delightfully evil mind. "Ja, jeg er tospr?klig - norsk og engelsk." :) > If the US is so bad, why is it that 60% of the Canadian population > lives within 40km of the US border? ;-) Because Canadian winters farther north are worse. :-) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 18:35:51 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: XTerms + DEC stuff + misc available (Cambridge, UK) In-Reply-To: <1088601896.2977.285.camel@weka.localdomain> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 30, 4 01:24:56 pm Message-ID: > ps. I too am curious to know what the spiky thing is! Knowing the source, and knowing what they had, I am pretty sure this is a DEC Unibus backplane of some flavour. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 18:18:01 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <182515c74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 30, 4 10:14:22 am Message-ID: > I might have a go at doing the design work today. It's just a case of finding > my Isograph pens, a ruler and a bit of paper. The connector looks like a Ah, somebody else who believes in the paper-aided-design system, commonly known as a PAD :-)... I'm not sure what you need a ruler for, though. All my diagrams are hand-drawn, and I still manage to understand them, -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 18:45:56 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: from "Bill Dawson" at Jun 30, 4 05:02:55 pm Message-ID: > Perhaps a crude fix for the flaky 5V supply would be to add 5 self tapping > screws to the area where the finger drumming works. Although I'm sure Tony > would point out that what's really needed are 4 self tapping screws and a > thumbscrew... Actaully I'm more likely to suggest yoy resolder that darn dry joint, and go over others in the area. Preferably before soemthing in the sense circuit goes open and the output jumps to 15V or whatever! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 18:22:24 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <9bea15c74c.philpem@dsl.pipex.com> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 30, 4 10:22:47 am Message-ID: > > That's what the Elektor analyser consisted of..... > Yeah, I saw that. A few FIFOs and an Atmel MCU. I didn't build it because > there was no binary or source code available for the MCU and the software= > was > crap. That was my objection to it, too. I almost thought about ordering the PCB and writing my own software for the microcontroller and PC. Then I realised I already had a good enough analyser. > > > FWIW, I do a lot of my work with a 3 channel logic analyser (HP=20 > > LogicDart), > Isn't that the handheld analyser that HP used to make? ISTR they sold the That's the one. > design rights to Fluke - I've seen them listed in the Farnell catalogue u= > nder > the heading "Fluke LogicDart handheld logic analyser". Yes, I've heard that too. The Fluke version is probably perfectly OK (certainly their multimeters are excellent). The LogicDart (HP called it an 'Advanced Logic Probe') is a great tool. It will _not_ replace your better logic analyser, it won't replace your multimeter. But it's a useful 'first instrument' to pick up many faults. It'll check the supply voltage, check the clock, let you distinguish clocks from data lines (how else do you think I figured out what was going on in HP handheld calculators :-)), let you look at the clock and data lines of an I2C bus, etc, etc, etc. Probably overkill for most people here, but I use mine a lot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 29 18:32:48 2004 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: <40E28759.F80CAB32@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 30, 4 02:26:51 am Message-ID: > I've had an inclination for some time to start a thread along these > lines: tales told at one's own expense. Of course, one can't make such a > suggestion unless one is willing to put up one's own tale. So here's one > at mine (I'm willing to follow up with another if this catches on at all): Oh, where to start? I've got dozens of such stories where I've been silly. Perhaps this will adversely affect my reputation here, on the other hand I am man enough to admit I'm an idiot, so here goes... I once spend hours at school figuring out why a tape recorder appeared dead. No motor, no valve heater glow, etc. No outputs from the mains transformer. I can't remember how many tests I did before I bothered to unscrew the mains plug and check the fuse (UK 13A mains plugs have a cartridge fuse inside). It was mising. Not blown, but removed. A new fuse got the machine going again. And I spent a very long time (as in several days) sorting out a PDP11/45 that would crash in strange ways after about an hour's running. I was naive in those days and actually tried board-swapping. This made matters worse as the replacement boards were a different revision and there was a backplane modification (an extra clock signal IIRC) that you had to do. Battled through the prints and did that, still no better. After spending hours with boards on the extender card, checking signals, etc, I finally thought to check the PSU. The +5V line to tbe memory (at least) was sitting at 4.2V. Out came the screwdriver and I tweaked the preset on the regulator. No more problems (even with the original CPU boards). Not a silly fault, but a silly thing to do was the time I had a malfunctioning -15V regulator brick in the same machine. I put that on an extender cable (this isn't an offficial DEC thing, but I have a cable with an 8 pin mate-n-lock plug on one end and a socket on the other for working on such bricks). I was trying to figure out why it was giving no output into a minimal load and very foolishly I disabled the overcurrent trip. Alas the reason it was giving no output was that the crowbar was firing. With no overcurrent trip, the crowbar blew just about every transistor on the PCB (and finally the fuse). The flash was spectacular.... Then there was the RK05 that would spin down during major disk activity. When the head was stepping all over the disk, the thing would retract the heads, and de-energise the spindle relay. Then it would start up again and reload the heads. I spent quite a bit of time looking at the logic (and this time I did check the PSU rails, all fine) before I thought to check the interlock signal. It was being de-asserted. Now that comes from 2 microswitches in series, one detects that the door is closed, one detects there's a pack in place. No, both swithces were fine, but some idiot (not me) had cut one of the wires between them and just twisted the ends together and bound them with insulting tape. Soldering that properly cured the problem. More stories when some others have owned up, I guess :-) -tony From cmcnabb at gmail.com Wed Jun 30 19:08:25 2004 From: cmcnabb at gmail.com (Christopher McNabb) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <145cecdd04063017089827457@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 1 Jul 2004 00:18:01 +2500 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > Ah, somebody else who believes in the paper-aided-design system, commonly > known as a PAD :-)... > > I'm not sure what you need a ruler for, though. All my diagrams are > hand-drawn, and I still manage to understand them, The other day a co-worker caught me using a flowchart template, pad of graph paper, and a koh-i-noor mechanical pencil to diagram a program's flow. When they commented that there were tools like Visio available I had to tell them that Visio (which is installed on one of my machines) only helps with drawing, not with thinking. There is just something about pencil to paper that makes the brain juices flow. From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 30 18:16:49 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: ISI 68K Qbus board In-Reply-To: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> References: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> Message-ID: <20040630231649.GA24160@bos7.spole.gov> On Tue, Jun 29, 2004 at 10:17:24PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > > is there any documentation on the ISI board > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/isi/IS68K_Qbus_Mar84.pdf That looks like a fun little board (the 68000 is one of my favorite processors). I'd be curious to learn what devices their flavor of UNIX supports. Given the era, I'd almost expect MSCP disk and little else, but it'd be interesting to know. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jun-2004 22:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -88.7 F (-67.0 C) Windchill -128.5 F (-89.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.1 kts Grid 089 Barometer 670.2 mb (10997. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dickset at amanda.spole.gov Wed Jun 30 04:07:48 2004 From: dickset at amanda.spole.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> Message-ID: <20040630090748.GA16070@bos7.spole.gov> On Wed, Jun 30, 2004 at 08:21:30AM +0200, Hans B PUFAL wrote: > I find it amazing that in the land of rampant capitalism they are unable > to see the advantages of selling internationally. > Yesterday I decided to see about buying a new laptop. Having chosen the > model I searched on Froogle and found > well over 100 hits. I contacted the 5 cheapest to ask if they would > ship internationally - four replied NO. The one > positive response was also the cheapest so they get the order! This is different than eBay sellers - there's been a large amount of fraud via APO boxes and foreign orders, so lots of laptop and digital camera vendors won't take the risk. The ones perpetrating the fraud know how hard it is to catch someone out of the country. I myself was burned for a couple thousand from a vendor with a retail store (in Holland) that refused to pay the invoice, claiming that the product was never delivered ("oh, that? That's not _my_ signature...") > The eBay "will ship to only" is > something I do not understand. Why reduce your potential > market? An international buyer knows they will have to pay for shipping > and that might put them off but why shut them out > completely? The extra hassle of an international shipment cannot be > that great, at least it isn't in my experience here in Europe. In the case of eBay sellers, it's not fear of fraud so much as fear of hassle. The one thing that's different about sending a package through the Post is a customs form. That's it (and you have to do that for an APO box as well). UPS is a different story - if you don't do pages of export documents, even to Canada, they will shunt your package to a customs broker... the first thing I bought from Canada was for my Amiga, a disk interface. The seller was new to international shipping, and put it in a box and took it to UPS. I get this call from a broker who wants $80 to handle the paperwork (it was a $70 item). I told them to return it to the sender. He got it back, he got things figured out, and I got it, I think, in the Post, with no further problems. I have shipped many things to Canada, even via UPS, and since _I_ fill out the paperwork, there's never been a problem. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-130-S Current South Pole Weather at 30-Jun-2004 09:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -89.9 F (-67.7 C) Windchill -131.4 F (-90.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 10.9 kts Grid 079 Barometer 670.4 mb (10989. ft) Ethan.Dicks@amanda.spole.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Jun 30 14:59:29 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: ISI 68K Qbus board In-Reply-To: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> References: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> Message-ID: <40E31BA1.5080708@theriver.com> Thanks Al, The board is a rebadged IS-M68K. It has the standard 256K onbaord ram and is capable of the full 4 MB of local Qbus memory and it also has three serial ports. The eproms, as stated before are the MACS Prom which has the MACSBUG monitor. An option, as stated in the manual is a UNIPS Prom which allows bootstrapping of Unix from a variety of hardware. My googling has found out that the M68K ran a versions of V5 and V6 as well as 4.3BSD. Does anyone know if a unix can be bootstraped from the Macsbug monitor. Cheers Tom Al Kossow wrote: >>is there any documentation on the ISI board > > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/isi/IS68K_Qbus_Mar84.pdf > > if you decide not to keep it, please keep me in mind. > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From tponsford at theriver.com Wed Jun 30 14:59:29 2004 From: tponsford at theriver.com (Tom Ponsford) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: ISI 68K Qbus board In-Reply-To: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> References: <20040630051724.ECB793C62@spies.com> Message-ID: <40E31BA1.5080708@theriver.com> Thanks Al, The board is a rebadged IS-M68K. It has the standard 256K onbaord ram and is capable of the full 4 MB of local Qbus memory and it also has three serial ports. The eproms, as stated before are the MACS Prom which has the MACSBUG monitor. An option, as stated in the manual is a UNIPS Prom which allows bootstrapping of Unix from a variety of hardware. My googling has found out that the M68K ran a versions of V5 and V6 as well as 4.3BSD. Does anyone know if a unix can be bootstraped from the Macsbug monitor. Cheers Tom Al Kossow wrote: >>is there any documentation on the ISI board > > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/isi/IS68K_Qbus_Mar84.pdf > > if you decide not to keep it, please keep me in mind. > > -- --- Please do not read this sig. If you have read this far, please unread back to the beginning. From dvcorbin at optonline.net Wed Jun 30 20:28:55 2004 From: dvcorbin at optonline.net (David V. Corbin) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>> Not a silly fault, but a silly thing to do was the time I >>> had a malfunctioning -15V regulator brick in the same >>> machine. I put that on an extender cable (this isn't an >>> offficial DEC thing, but I have a cable with an 8 pin >>> mate-n-lock plug on one end and a socket on the other for >>> working on such bricks). I was trying to figure out why it >>> was giving no output into a minimal load and very foolishly >>> I disabled the overcurrent trip. Alas the reason it was >>> giving no output was that the crowbar was firing. With no >>> overcurrent trip, the crowbar blew just about every >>> transistor on the PCB (and finally the fuse). The flash was >>> spectacular.... Late 1970's I was involved in the development of automatic test equipment (PDP-8 based!). The power supplys were programmable, but not accurately, so the standard procedure was to have circuitry that would connect the power supply to a DVM [direct BCD parallel interface, a real dog]. So you set the voltage to nominal, beaure the error and adjust the voltage accordingly. Now lets see what happens if you forget to connect the DVM.... Programmed Actual Error 5.0 0.0 -5.0 10.0 0.0 -10.0 20.0 0.0 -20.0 40.0 0.0 -40.0 57.6(max) 0.0 -57.6 Of course by this time the entire system let out all of the magic smoke...... The result was that LARGE diodes were placed across the power supply leads to protect the fixtures. They quickly got the moniker CYSH [Corbin You S*** Head] diodes. David Corbin From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jun 30 20:58:37 2004 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: VCFe (trades) IBM datamaster References: <004b01c45cbd$d05a4e10$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> <20040628182043.22467@mail.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <00c001c45f0e$eca42de0$6400a8c0@HPLAPTOP> > IBM System/23 Datamaster. Two desktop units and one tower unit. All > three power up and are able to read a directory from disk, not tested further. Hummm if my basement was just a LITTLE less full, I could go for this one! Jay From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Jun 30 20:49:11 2004 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: I'm so stupid... Was: Head Cleaners In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200407010200.WAA26842@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > More stories when some others have owned up, I guess :-) Well, let's see. ---- There was the time I was working on mains wiring (helping my parents with their house) and we had something - an outlet box, I think - to work on. We wanted to flip the breaker for that circuit before working on it, but for some reason we weren't sure which circuit it was on. I said something like "well, let's find out", stuck a screwdriver in the corner of the box (metal boxes, properly grounded) and leaned it over to touch the hot wire. It worked, in that it flipped the correct breaker. But I was idiot enough to be looking right at it as I did this. When I could see again, I found that the screwdriver had a semicircular piece chewed out of its shaft, about halfway through, and the room smelled of vapourized metal - steel and copper, presumably. I've never taken that drastic an approach to flipping a breaker since, and don't expect to unless something fairly precious is at stake (say, someone is being electrocuted, that's about the level of severity that could lead me to crowbar a mains circuit). As far as I know, the screwdriver is still in service. (It was last time I had occasion to work around that house, which was years ago.) ---- Then there was the time I was trying to debug a problem with a packet-filtering firewall. The packets just weren't getting through. I stared at the rules, my boss (himself a sharp geek) stared at the rules, one of the owners stared at the rules (the company is owned by two people, the founders - a geek and a businessman), the person who did most of the firewall stuff stared at the rules, and then someone else, who didn't do diddly with firewalls in general, said something like "um, aren't *those* supposed to be over *here*?". Sure enough, the rules were (liberally paraphrased) pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT1 pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT2 pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT3 pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT4 pass from INTERNAL to EXTERNAL port PORT1 pass from INTERNAL to EXTERNAL port PORT2 pass from INTERNAL to EXTERNAL port PORT3 pass from INTERNAL to EXTERNAL port PORT4 and needed to be pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT1 pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT2 pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT3 pass from EXTERNAL to INTERNAL port PORT4 pass from INTERNAL port PORT1 to EXTERNAL pass from INTERNAL port PORT2 to EXTERNAL pass from INTERNAL port PORT3 to EXTERNAL pass from INTERNAL port PORT4 to EXTERNAL I've rarely had that duh! a moment. (At least I had some company.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse@rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From esharpe at uswest.net Wed Jun 30 21:00:43 2004 From: esharpe at uswest.net (ed sharpe) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? References: Message-ID: <004e01c45f0f$37815ef0$0ed4e144@SONYDIGITALED> did you get the book!? ed! ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: "ed sharpe" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 7:58 AM Subject: Re: "How to build a working digital computer" - Anyone with copies? > > > is that the book with the paper clips on the front of it in the picture? > > they were using them as a keyboard? > > Half! > > Paperclips I'll believe, the computer is supposed to be constructed out of > paperclips for switches. Whether it was a keyboard or not, I'm unsure, I > don't know what the dust jacket ever looked like. > > JP > > From trestivo at tarinc.com Wed Jun 30 21:26:14 2004 From: trestivo at tarinc.com (thom restivo) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 manuals? Message-ID: <015501c45f12$c8596b90$6601a8c0@vaiolaptop> Wai sun, I saw your post on classiccmp about Rainbow manuals. I may have some stuff at the warehouse if you're interested. I am the guy you bought some DEC stuff from on ebay (thom from tarinc). Let me know if you're still looking for the rainbow docs. I also have some rainbow hardware. Regards, Thom From aek at spies.com Wed Jun 30 21:50:50 2004 From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: ISI 68K Qbus board Message-ID: <20040701025050.E60393D62@spies.com> I'd be curious to learn what devices their flavor of UNIX supports. Given the era, I'd almost expect MSCP disk and little else, but it'd be interesting to know. -- from memory, their own ST506 ctlr emulating an RL02 and the usual MT/MS tape controllers. We had several at the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee >From memory, they had Emulex discs with 80meg 2312s, Emulex DH and a magtape controller. Should check to see if they were finally thrown out from storage. From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 21:57:10 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes In-Reply-To: <16610.63201.840501.731973@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <16610.49712.172177.492410@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <3.0.6.32.20040630130816.008f6100@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630225710.008a4cc0@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> At 01:22 PM 6/30/04 -0400, you wrote: >>>>>> "Joe" == Joe R writes: > > >> And ya know what? Once I tell em I actually live in the U.S., but > >> am "sent out" to Europe... they're all of a sudden OK with sending > >> it to Holland again. Even though they need exact instructions on > >> how to fill out those damn forms ;-) > > Joe> Exact instructions? Let's see; shippers name and address (I > Joe> think they can figure that one out), Addressies name and address > Joe> (that shouldn't be too hard, after all they are mailing the item > Joe> to them), then name of the item and it's value (can't be too > Joe> hard, they did just sell it on E-bay), next weather it's a gift, > Joe> sample or merchandise (gee, that's tough but since they SOLD it > Joe> I'd say it must be merchandise), then finally sign and date > Joe> it. This must be the rough part, they either don't know their > Joe> own name or they can't read. > > Joe> Seriously, what's the difficulty? > >Did they check the recipient's name against the denied parties list? >Do they even know what a denied parties list is? Did they check the >export category of the item being exported, and verify what the export >rules are that apply to *that* category for *that* destination country >and type of recipient? > >That's the difficulty. > > paul > I was talking about the claimed difficulty with the forms not the prerequisites. The forms are about the same level of difficulty as filling out an address lable. Joe From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 30 22:13:09 2004 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Lots of Tandy Pocket Computers ... Message-ID: <200407010313.UAA17444@floodgap.com> People collecting Tandy Pocket Computers, this is your auction. The guy is asking $375 firm (and believe me, if I had $375, I would be buying this and not even telling you all about it ;-). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3490262210 It's a very nice collection and almost all of them seem in great shape. I hope someone here can grab it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser@floodgap.com -- The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it. -- Abbie Hoffman - From rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Wed Jun 30 22:15:22 2004 From: rigdonj at cfl.rr.com (Joe R.) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: New Finds: Mentis wearable computer! Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20040630231522.00902270@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> I got a call from one of my sources today. They had a new load of stuff for me to check out so I went out there LATE today and stayed till well after dark. One of the more intersting things that I found is a Mentis wearable computer! Pictures to follow when time permits. TELTRONICS - INTERACTIVE SOLUTIONS Mentis, fully functional wearable computer, Intel Pentium 166 MHz MMX, includes CD capability. "The Mentis system is created and manufactured by Interactive Solutions, a subsidiary of Teltronics, Inc. Belonging to the new generation of wearable computers, the Mentis system takes "wearable" to new dimensions. Multimedia dimensions. With the Mentis solution, users gain the portability of a laptop, the ruggedness of a wearable computer, and the full multimedia capabilities of a desktop system. It is a truly universal computing platform. And, it's ideal for any environment, any occasion where users need real-time, interactive information, in the field or on the fly. The Mentis processing unit is little more than an inch thick and measures 7? by 5? inches. This compact system houses a Pentium?-based, fully multimedia-equipped, single-board computer." (Home Page) Joe From evan947 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 30 22:21:09 2004 From: evan947 at yahoo.com (evan) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Lots of Tandy Pocket Computers ... Message-ID: <20040701032109.76434.qmail@web52804.mail.yahoo.com> Handhelds are all I collect, and I feel this seller's collection is overpriced. Tandy pocket computers aren't really that rare or historically significant. Well, the Sharp PC-1211 (which is what the Tandy PC-1 actually was) is significant, because it was the first of the category, tied with the Matsushita (Panasonic/Quasar) "Hand Held Computer" series. Alas, the PC-1 isn't part of this collection. I estimate the value of this collection at abut $200. - Evan People collecting Tandy Pocket Computers, this is your auction. The guy is asking $375 firm (and believe me, if I had $375, I would be buying this and not even telling you all about it ;-). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3490262210 It's a very nice collection and almost all of them seem in great shape. I hope someone here can grab it. -- ---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it. -- Abbie Hoffman From vrs at email.msn.com Wed Jun 30 21:18:45 2004 From: vrs at email.msn.com (vrs) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: Buying in the States was Re: HP analyzer probes References: <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org> <40E25BEA.1090200@citem.org><3.0.6.32.20040630075815.0086c550@pop-server.cfl.rr.com> <200406301626.MAA24673@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <00c601c45f12$1c042420$9e440443@vrshome.msn.com> > In any case, fine, you go stay in your US and enjoy it. Trust me, the > rest of the world won't miss you. The very existence of this thread suggests you are mistaken, (at the very least) with respect to our goods :-). Vince From bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net Wed Jun 30 23:21:09 2004 From: bill_mcdermith at mcdermith.net (Bill McDermith) Date: Sun Feb 27 13:47:00 2005 Subject: HP 7200A plotter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40E39135.8010306@mcdermith.net> We had an HP 7200A plotter connected to a 9810 calculator in our physics lab in college. I don't have any docs for it, though, other than I can still picture it next to the calculator -- this would have been early-mid 70s.... Bill Ashley Carder wrote: > I'll see if I can get some further information on this > plotter. Surely an HP plotter can't be this elusive! > My documentation does say HP 7200A. > > Let me drop an email to my retired professor who managed > our computer center from the late 1960s through 2001. > Perhaps he has some info on it. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of auryn@gci-net.com > Sent: Monday, June 28, 2004 7:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: HP 7200A plotter > > > On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 18:49:30 -0400 > "Ashley Carder" wrote: > >>Sorry, I don't have a picture of it. I've found >>reference to it >>by Google-ing, but only a couple of references. I do >>remember it. >>It was flat, sat on a table, was maybe 14" x 14" (a >>guess), and >>had little pens that you mounted in the "drawing arm" or >>whatever >>you want to call it. I have a page of documentation on >>how to >>use it from our 1978 computer center "user's guide". > > > The only 72xx models that I am aware of are (ahem, > *were* :>) the 7225{A,B} and 7240/7245. But, the > 724x was thermal so I assume that's not it. The > 7225 matches your description, though -- ~14-15" square > desktop footprint... buttons across the front... > > --don > >