From curt at atari-history.com Thu Sep 6 11:38:06 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:12:30 2005 Subject: Taking control of your collection References: Message-ID: <00d701c136f2$4f4ff430$3135ff0a@cvendel> Damn Sellam!!! Stop given away trade secrets! Before you know, everyone will be doing that, then you'll have to get a classic computing group going, a mailing list, yearly shows, articles, interviews.... oh the headaches that will come!!! :-) Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 3:54 AM Subject: Re: Taking control of your collection > On Wed, 6 Feb 2002, Hans Franke wrote: > > > > But there is a method to my madness ;) > > > > Serious ? Tell me, I'd like to know. > > I'm trying to create my own gravitational field using classic computers > as the core. > > Shhh! Don't tell anyone! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com * > From curt at atari-history.com Thu Sep 6 10:27:58 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:12:31 2005 Subject: RJ45 to serial DE-9 References: <200202060537.VAA27306@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <004101c136e8$8c7efe50$3135ff0a@cvendel> Cameron, You can use any straight through RJ45 cable, standard Cat5 is fine as well. Radio Shack sells do it yourself connector kits with rj45 on the plastic hood and you just plug in the appropriate cables to the connector, for the DB-9/DE-9 wire as follows: 2 - yellow 3 - black 4 - orange 5 - green & red 6 - brown 7 - blue 9 - white If you run into problems and can't get it going, just let me know, I've made like a doz of them as I use them all the time on various cisco devices. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 1:37 AM Subject: RJ45 to serial DE-9 > I thought I had one, but I don't. Someone out there have/know where to find > a cable with an RJ-45 plug on one side and a female DE-9 (DB-25 okay but > prefer DE-9) on the other? This is to plug my Commodore into the serial port > on my Lantronix EPS4+1 and attempt to get it on the network by reverse Telnet. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Justice is incidental to law and order. -- J. Edgar Hoover ----------------- From curt at atari-history.com Sun Sep 16 14:50:28 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:16:39 2005 Subject: trying to identify this 68K-based board... References: <20020116184455.82527.qmail@web20102.mail.yahoo.com> <3C45E0D0.310090E4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <00c101c13ee8$d6444e20$2c35ff0a@cvendel> Eric, If I remember correctly, that was a CSU for a T1 line, besides the 15pin AUI connector on it, does it have an RJ45 type port on it that says NI on it or another AUI port, as it may be a DDS56K CSU or an old Network Bridge between two vlans. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Chomko" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: trying to identify this 68K-based board... > It is an ISA-16 card. It has a 68000, w/2 27128 EEPROMs, 16 1259-15 RAM chips > and Intel > chips, 82586 and 8253-5. The rest looks to be TTL, a couple of connectors and > couple of > crystals, 16 and 20 MHz. > > It was made by Bridge Communications, USA, in 1987. And it has a D-shell 15 > pin (like a > Mac video -2 rows of pins) female connector on the back. > > Just did a Google search on 'Bridge Communications." Had several hits that had > absolutely > nothing to do with computers and electronics, more at the health industry. > Andway, any > info about this card appreciated. > > I guess I could through in into an old AT system and see what it does. There > are a few jumpers > marked 'int' and 'address' that might be worth finding out about before > running a "smoke" test. > > My guess is that it is some sort of CPU board, but what? > > Eric > From curt at atari-history.com Sat Sep 1 00:44:28 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:19:32 2005 Subject: Atari 4160STE ?! References: <81BDC19FEA82D311A83900A024F2457F2A7B12@osiris.e-spirit.de> Message-ID: <005001c132a9$2c7b6270$0a00a8c0@cvendel> Hi Stefan, The 4160STe was going to be a 4mb Europe release of the ST but was cut from production at the last minute, a few samples are floating about, I have a huge bag full of the labels in a storage container and a proto motherboard in storage (non-working, haven't had a chance to look at) While I don't have every single ST component listed, the ST section under Atari Computers on my website should be of help to you: www.atarimuseum.com Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walgenbach, Stefan" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 10:54 AM Subject: Atari 4160STE ?! > Hi, > > I just got an Atari 4160STE (case only) - does anyone know > details about the history of this machine? Some sources say > that it was a developer version of the Atari 1040STE ... > http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=272 > > BTW: Is there a complete list of all Atari 16Bit computers > that were sold? As far as I kown at least these models > were sold - because I own them :) > > I own: > Atari 260 ST > Atari 520 ST > Atari 520 STM (boxed) > Atari 520+ ST > Atari 520 STFM > Atari 1040 STF > Atari 1040 STFM > Atari Mega ST-1 > Atari Mega ST-2 > Atari 520 STE > Atari 1040 STE > Atari MEGA STE > Atari Falcon 030 > Atari ATW 800 > Atari ST Book > > I know but don't own: > Atari Stacy > Atari TT > Atari Mega ST-4 > > Stefan. > www.HomeComputer.de From curt at atari-history.com Wed Sep 26 11:17:23 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 18:20:41 2005 Subject: WTD: Amiga 1000 References: <3B55D7F383B0D31197D9009027541CBF1170E01B@cmiexch1.cmi.itds.com> Message-ID: <001901c146a6$ba528450$4435ff0a@cvendel> Anyone have an Amiga 1000 in mint condition in an original box that is also in mint condition looking to sell/trade? Curt From west at tseinc.com Sat Sep 1 02:05:16 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:03 2005 Subject: HP2000 BASIC Message-ID: <002d01c132b4$74d4f4e0$0101a8c0@jay> As a followup... Today I got the mux board put together and hooked up a few terminals. I hit return and was greeted with the infamous "PLEASE LOG IN". Then I created an A000 account, logged in, and entered/ran some basic programs... WOOHOO! It's all up 100% now. Funny how I just got the system completely usable today, and already I'm thinking about hardware upgrades *smile* It will take me some time - weeks at least & maybe months to get around to putting a FreeBSD machine on front of the system so people can telnet to the HP2000 box across the internet. However, if someone just can't wait to play with it (yes, a few people have already asked me about this) - send me a private email and I'll slap a modem directly on the system so you can dial in. All you'd have is long distance fees. Regards! (time for me to go have lots of beer to celebrate) Jay West From CELang at worldnet.att.net Sat Sep 1 00:05:14 2001 From: CELang at worldnet.att.net (CELang) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:08 2005 Subject: Lubert Trek Message-ID: <001001c132a3$b3484300$9b854b0c@oemcomputer> I was just reminded this evening about a program I've been looking for on and off for years now. It was a Star Trek game written by Col. Lubert. I think he was Air Force, but I don't remember for certain. It was a battle; Enterprise vs a Klingon battle cruiser. I found the program on the University of Minnesota's CDC Cyber 74 in 1979 and did a conversion to Apple ][. Someone asked to borrow my only hardcopy of the program, and like a good little idiot I gave it up. Then the cassette with the Apple copy died. Of course, the guy I loaned the hardcopy to had no recollection of it and by this time I no longer had access to the Cyber. Does anyone out there have a copy of this game? Thanks for reading. Craig From foxnhare at jps.net Sat Sep 1 00:29:38 2001 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:11 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings References: <200109010407.XAA77581@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like to wear? Of course some of the classics are: //////////// BYTE ME! //////////// DANCE ALGORITHM 1.0 0A ASL ;SHIFT TO THE LEFT! 4A LSR ;SHIFT TO THE RIGHT! 48 PHA ;PUSH A! 68 PLA ;PULL A! EA NOP ;BYTE! EA NOP ;BYTE! EA NOP ;BYTE! //////////// 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 (this one is a bit harsh, I'd prefer to use a different phrase) ////////////// My other computer is an Apple I ////////////// My computer takes up half a room draws 500 watts, has 4k of RAM, and runs at only 500khz... Beat That! //////////////// reason: I have a bag of old buttons I am relabling (sticking new labels over the previous 1996 dated event designs) to give away at VCF 5.0, besides the Commodore related ones (of course) and those above, I am open to do other designs (I have already did a nice "I'd rather be playing Spacewar" in button form). Just let me know, I have about 60-100 buttons I'm doing. (color and photos are doable, fonts too if I have em.) -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From jpl15 at panix.com Sat Sep 1 01:31:41 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:11 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: When I was doing heavy computer support for and within a Giant Coporation, I had a button which I wore.. with bits circling the periphery... in the middle it said: "Relax! It's Only Ones and Zeroes..." People who had just crashed and then overwritten critical databases sometimes didn't fully appreciate it's gentle humor, however. ;} Cheerz John From sipke at wxs.nl Sat Sep 1 03:30:31 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:11 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings References: <200109010407.XAA77581@opal.tseinc.com> <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: <002601c132c0$5d438420$030101ac@boll.casema.net> How about... STOP THE BITS NOW! ENOUGH = ENOUGH //////////////////// MY PC WOULD LIKE TO MATE WITH YOURS (substitute VAX or whatever if appropriate) ///////////////////// BYTES: $0789 -$1231 ARE STRIKING FOR EXTRA PARITY BITS ///////////////////// DEATH PENALTY FOR VIRUS CODERS! ///////////////////// LEGALIZE COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT! ////////////////////// F*CK MICROSOFT BEFORE IT F*CKS YOU! ///////////////////// SAVE THE VAXEN ///////////////////// are we still on topic ???????????? Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Anderson To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:29 AM Subject: Geek Button Sayings > > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like > to wear? > > Of course some of the classics are: > > //////////// > > BYTE ME! > > //////////// > > DANCE > ALGORITHM 1.0 > > 0A ASL ;SHIFT TO > THE LEFT! > 4A LSR ;SHIFT TO > THE RIGHT! > 48 PHA ;PUSH A! > 68 PLA ;PULL A! > EA NOP ;BYTE! > EA NOP ;BYTE! > EA NOP ;BYTE! > > //////////// > > 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 > 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 > 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 > 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 > 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 > 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 > 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 > 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 > 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 > > (this one is a bit harsh, I'd prefer to use a different phrase) > > ////////////// > > My other computer is an Apple I > > ////////////// > > My computer > takes up half a room > draws 500 watts, > has 4k of RAM, > and runs at only 500khz... > > Beat That! > > //////////////// > > > > reason: I have a bag of old buttons I am relabling (sticking new labels > over the previous 1996 dated event designs) to give away at VCF 5.0, > besides the Commodore related ones (of course) and those above, I am > open to do other designs (I have already did a nice "I'd rather be > playing Spacewar" in button form). Just let me know, I have about > 60-100 buttons I'm doing. (color and photos are doable, fonts too if I > have em.) > -- > 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 > Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 > 300-14.4k bps > Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html > 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 1 07:08:16 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:11 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: SHOW ME YOUR FLOPPIES I'LL SHOW YOU MY HARD DRIVE -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Larry Anderson -> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 12:30 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Geek Button Sayings -> -> -> -> If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase -> (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like -> to wear? -> -> Of course some of the classics are: -> -> //////////// -> -> BYTE ME! -> -> //////////// -> -> DANCE -> ALGORITHM 1.0 -> -> 0A ASL ;SHIFT TO -> THE LEFT! -> 4A LSR ;SHIFT TO -> THE RIGHT! -> 48 PHA ;PUSH A! -> 68 PLA ;PULL A! -> EA NOP ;BYTE! -> EA NOP ;BYTE! -> EA NOP ;BYTE! -> -> //////////// -> -> 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 -> 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 -> 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 -> 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 -> 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 -> 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 -> 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 -> 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 -> 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 -> -> (this one is a bit harsh, I'd prefer to use a different phrase) -> -> ////////////// -> -> My other computer is an Apple I -> -> ////////////// -> -> My computer -> takes up half a room -> draws 500 watts, -> has 4k of RAM, -> and runs at only 500khz... -> -> Beat That! -> -> //////////////// -> -> -> -> reason: I have a bag of old buttons I am relabling (sticking new labels -> over the previous 1996 dated event designs) to give away at VCF 5.0, -> besides the Commodore related ones (of course) and those above, I am -> open to do other designs (I have already did a nice "I'd rather be -> playing Spacewar" in button form). Just let me know, I have about -> 60-100 buttons I'm doing. (color and photos are doable, fonts too if I -> have em.) -> -- -> 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 -> 01010010 01000101 -> Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 -> 300-14.4k bps -> Classic Commodore pages at: -> http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html -> 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 -> 01010010 01010011 -> From jss at subatomix.com Sat Sep 1 08:19:18 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <20010901081620.W11815-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of ideas for using > computer sounds to make music. I have a recording studio hung off my > main non-classic box, so I can add this to my List of Unfinished > Projects. Be careful; you might become the next Trent Reznor! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 1 08:21:23 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Two DEC LN03 toner / maintenance kits available In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010831170420.03c36eb0@209.185.79.193> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010831133743.022e35f0@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010901081955.022b4b80@pc> At 05:05 PM 8/31/01 -0700, Chuck McManis wrote: >Yeah, what up with these? The local auction house just got two pallets of them in. I don't think they got any bids. Were they declared toxic or something? Yeah, even on eBay they're getting no bids. And here I thouhgt that was because no one was still operating LN03s except for collectors. All in all, this isn't helping me clean the basement. :-) - John >At 05:33 PM 8/31/01 -0600, you wrote: > >>I have a stack of these available if anyone wants (after John sells >>his pair, of course :) > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Sep 1 11:04:44 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: I've got the PA-RISC Blues . . . Message-ID: <20010901.110446.-79813.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> I recently aquired an HP-9000/735-120, minus the RAM and (I've just realized) the CPU! Grrrrrr. Anyone know of a reasonably-priced source for these items? Thanx-- Jeff ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From foo at siconic.com Sat Sep 1 11:21:09 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 31 Aug 2001, Larry Anderson wrote: > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you > like to wear? How about the obvious: My parents went to VCF and all I got was this stupid button. ...and... Real men don't program in Pascal ...and... I my 8" Floppy Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fdebros at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 11:27:10 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <007101c13302$f893c6f0$6601a8c0@fred> >>all sorts of ideas for using computer sounds to make music. > Glen Or check the latest WIRED mag article Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 1 12:07:42 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: DON'T ANTHROPOMORPHIZE COMPUTERS - THEY HATE IT WHEN YOU DO THAT MAKE BILL GATES A MILLIONAIRE (too subtle for most people) W.I.B.A.S - WINDOWS IS BUGGY AND SLOW (from about 1990) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 1 12:57:56 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <008801c1330f$cef20ca0$1e789a8d@ajp166> From: Dave McGuire > There is the well-known software package for DEC's pdp8/e (and >perhaps other -8 models) that makes quite reasonable music from a >nearby AM radio, if memory serves the "interference" was generated by >the core memory drivers...you took the chassis cover off, put an AM >radio near the machine, ran the program, gave it a "song" file, and >away it played. > > -Dave There was also a pack of routines that used the link bit driving an amplifier to a speaker... much cleaner. Then there is also software for the A/D board... fairly decent. Other classic music hardware was the ALS-8. As to sounds, the best is my S-S100 boot test, series or disk seeks beeps to a speaker (coded) and the vt100 terminal beep after it finally says hello to the serial line. It's the best for the one reason, they indicate boot progress and success. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 1 12:51:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings Message-ID: <008701c1330f$ce71b910$1e789a8d@ajp166> Existed as large button and also a teeshirt. |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| (digital keys logo in BLUE) the word unix in the no symbol (red circle with slash) and the words.... unix the unsystem, never had it never will. ca.1984 Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 1 13:02:23 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings Message-ID: <008f01c13311$e8fa4160$1e789a8d@ajp166> You forgot... WYSIWYG ... What You See Is What You Get (first generation pagelayup editors) WYGINS.... What You Get Is No Surprize (Runoff, TEX, LAtex users know this) -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, September 01, 2001 1:38 PM Subject: RE: Geek Button Sayings >DON'T ANTHROPOMORPHIZE COMPUTERS - THEY HATE IT WHEN YOU DO THAT > >MAKE BILL GATES A MILLIONAIRE (too subtle for most people) > >W.I.B.A.S - WINDOWS IS BUGGY AND SLOW (from about 1990) > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 12:45:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <001d01c13296$343423c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Aug 31, 1 09:28:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 876 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010901/f6067e45/attachment.ksh From technos at nerdland.org Sat Sep 1 13:22:15 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings Message-ID: <01C132F1.8084F9B0.technos@nerdland.org> "I [heart] my Wang" Might also appeal to readers of Penny Arcade.. Jim On Saturday, September 01, 2001 1:30 AM, Larry Anderson [SMTP:foxnhare@jps.net] wrote: > > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you > like > to wear? > > Of course some of the classics are: > > //////////// > > BYTE ME! > > //////////// > > DANCE > ALGORITHM 1.0 > > 0A ASL ;SHIFT TO > THE LEFT! > 4A LSR ;SHIFT TO > THE RIGHT! > 48 PHA ;PUSH A! > 68 PLA ;PULL A! > EA NOP ;BYTE! > EA NOP ;BYTE! > EA NOP ;BYTE! > > //////////// > > 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 0 > 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 > 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 1 > 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 > 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 > 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 1 > 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 1 > 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 > 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 > > (this one is a bit harsh, I'd prefer to use a different phrase) > > ////////////// > > My other computer is an Apple I > > ////////////// > > My computer > takes up half a room > draws 500 watts, > has 4k of RAM, > and runs at only 500khz... > > Beat That! > > //////////////// > > > > reason: I have a bag of old buttons I am relabling (sticking new > labels > over the previous 1996 dated event designs) to give away at VCF 5.0, > besides the Commodore related ones (of course) and those above, I am > open to do other designs (I have already did a nice "I'd rather be > playing Spacewar" in button form). Just let me know, I have about > 60-100 buttons I'm doing. (color and photos are doable, fonts too if > I > have em.) From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Sep 1 13:37:28 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies References: Message-ID: <3B912AE7.A6F7A1E8@idirect.com> >Tony Duell wrote: > You might be thinking of the RX50 dual 5.25" drive. This is a > single-sided unit which takes 2 separate floppy disks. They rotate in > opposite directions (due to a belt that runs over both sides of the > chassis) but as the lower disk is inserted label side down, in fact each > disk rotates the 'standard' way and can be read/written on other machines > without problems. Jerome Fine replies: But as far as the head is concerned, the direction of rotation is the same on a relative basis - which is why a floppy written in the top drive can still be read in the bottom drive. Actually, I think the best use for an RX50 drive is what my grandson did one day - took a VERY LARGE SLEDGE HAMMER and ... Other than a CPU, DEC never seemed to manage to make decent hardware the first time around. Even the software had bugs that were really dumb. Of course, compared with M$, DEC software was Platinum compared to Tin (is there anything less than tin?). [But since DEC was bought in 1996?, that is OT] > I've never seen a floppy drive that reverses the direction of the spindle > rotation when side 1 is selected. Actually, just for fun, one day I punched the extra holes into an RX50 floppy, turned it over (did a Low Level Format in a different drive) and ran it as a flippy - I still have a couple that I use for demos. So instead of reversing the direction of the spindle, I reversed the direction of the media (Grin>). Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 1 13:47:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <008f01c13311$e8fa4160$1e789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, ajp166 wrote: > You forgot... > WYSIWYG ... What You See Is What You Get (first generation pagelayup > editors) > WYGINS.... What You Get Is No Surprize (Runoff, TEX, LAtex users know > this) YAFIYGI ... You Asked For It, You Got It (typesetting systems with no graphical display) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 12:55:43 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 1, 1 00:01:16 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4956 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010901/3e5b723e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 13:04:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> from "Larry Anderson" at Aug 31, 1 10:29:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 427 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010901/e47378bb/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 1 14:07:59 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies References: Message-ID: <001501c13319$6ac9e5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No ... What some folks used to do is punch a second index hole such that the diskette could be used on both sides, albeit one side at a time, in a SS drive. In order to make that work the diskette has to be put in backwards, i.e, such that the opposite side of the diskette faces the head as is normally the case, in which orientation the diskette is rotating in the opposite direction with respect to the head from that in which it would be if it were in a DS drive, which has a head on each side. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 11:45 AM Subject: Re: 8" Floppies > > > > Well, what I apparently missed is that the intent was to use both sides of a > > diskette in a single-sided drive, right? That is the only way that the > > direction would have been reversed. It seems to me that DEC did rotate the data > > in opposite directions in opposite sides on some models, didn't they? I've > > never tried to use a floppy on a DEC machine, so I plead ignorance. > > You might be thinking of the RX50 dual 5.25" drive. This is a > single-sided unit which takes 2 separate floppy disks. They rotate in > opposite directions (due to a belt that runs over both sides of the > chassis) but as the lower disk is inserted label side down, in fact each > disk rotates the 'standard' way and can be read/written on other machines > without problems. > > I've never seen a floppy drive that reverses the direction of the spindle > rotation when side 1 is selected. > > -tony > > From jss at subatomix.com Sat Sep 1 14:29:57 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread Message-ID: <20010901132521.I12087-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Well, all, it's time for me to clean boards for the first time. After doing a practice run on a nonessential board, it will be time to begin on the KA11 and friends found inside my PDP-11/20. I've done some research already, but several questions remain. I'd like to get answers to them and have some comments over my tentative cleaning methods. First, let's talk about fluids. It's been a while since I took a chemistry class. Questions: * Is there no difference between 'isopropanol', 'isopropyl alcohol', and 'propan-2-ol'? * Are there any better fluids (methanol?) for certain situations? * Can I find these at a hardware store? * Is there anything I should look out for when using those fluids? That is, is there anything (glue?) they can damage? My most important question deals with core stacks. Most of the board cleaning info I've found steers clear of core. This is unfortuante, as my core is not immune from dust and grime. What I have are H207s, each consisting of a quad-width G616 and a smaller G617 daughterboard. The small space between these boards is exceptionally dirty. My current plan for cleaning them is: (0) Leave the two board assembleds; disassembly would likely cause breakage. (1) Blow canned air over the assembly and through the inter-board space. (2) Dip and swish the assembly in isopropyl alcohol. (3) Blow air over the boards with an unheated hair dryer or more canned air. (4) If the assembly is still dirty, go to step (2). I've got more cleaning subjects to learn about, but in the interest of keeping the discussion more focused, I'll ask about them later. As always, I'm extremely grateful for all help that comes my way. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 14:41:47 2001 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings Message-ID: : p1 OOLCAY IT-TAY (or however it appears at the end of the book... I can't find my copy right now) ---------------------------------------------------- Swapped Out ---------------------------------------------------- Core Dumped ---------------------------------------------------- Carrier Lost ---------------------------------------------------- Lost Cluster ---------------------------------------------------- Hard Wired ---------------------------------------------------- Liquid Cooled ---------------------------------------------------- Simulation Only! ---------------------------------------------------- Overflow again? Somebody get the bit bucket. ---------------------------------------------------- Abort, Retry, Fail? ---------------------------------------------------- I'm with the head crash ==============> From pdan at primenet.com Sat Sep 1 15:02:08 2001 From: pdan at primenet.com (pdan@primenet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: The "MEX" program & is ron Fowler still around Message-ID: <200109012002.NAA04510@usr06.primenet.com> Yes, still using the MEX program for my UNIX dialup on my 1GH computer and since the upgrade, haven't been able to upload or download, the error message being "serial input errors". Is Ron Fowler who wrote the program still around or Al Jewer who worked on it? Alternatively, anybody here know what I'm talking about and who might have a suggestion for a fix? Any assisstance greatly appreciated. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Sep 1 15:00:49 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <3B912AE7.A6F7A1E8@idirect.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010901125932.02ed0680@mail.zipcon.net> At 02:37 PM 9/1/01 -0400, you wrote: >Jerome Fine replies: > >Other than a CPU, DEC never seemed to manage to make decent >hardware the first time around. Even the software had bugs that >were really dumb. Of course, compared with M$, DEC software >was Platinum compared to Tin (is there anything less than tin?). >[But since DEC was bought in 1996?, that is OT] Dec didn't design the RX50... DEC bought out another company that originally designed the drive (IIRC) and they had a warehouse of the drives, unused and dev put them to use. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com Sat Sep 1 15:05:02 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: DEC Design In-Reply-To: <3B912AE7.A6F7A1E8@idirect.com> from Jerome Fine at "Sep 1, 2001 02:37:28 pm" Message-ID: <200109012005.f81K53734696@bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com> > Jerome Fine replies: > Actually, I think the best use for an RX50 drive is what my grandson > did one day - took a VERY LARGE SLEDGE HAMMER and ... Yup. They really bit and everyone at DEC new it. > > Other than a CPU, DEC never seemed to manage to make decent > hardware the first time around. Even the software had bugs that > were really dumb. Of course, compared with M$, DEC software > was Platinum compared to Tin (is there anything less than tin?). > [But since DEC was bought in 1996?, that is OT] > Actually, DEC's tape drives were abysmal in design (not counting the DECtapes which were really reel-to-reel disk drives. Their disks had no more bugs than anyone elses and they were just on the pricey side. The RL0x's were pretty slick and the RK05/6/7's were ok. RM80's needed the RA81's 400+meg hda to be competitive... The RA81's would've been nice if the breather glue problem didn't occur. The DEC stuff was always pretty good maintenance wise with good diags and offline capabilities and testers. Lots of other manufacturers didn't do as well in this area -- but DEC milked the prices a bit too much and spawned a plug-compatible push which their Massbus patents killed. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com Sat Sep 1 15:05:56 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: The "MEX" program & is ron Fowler still around In-Reply-To: <200109012002.NAA04510@usr06.primenet.com> from "pdan@primenet.com" at "Sep 1, 2001 01:02:08 pm" Message-ID: <200109012005.f81K5uG34707@bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com> > Yes, still using the MEX program for my UNIX dialup on my 1GH computer > and since the upgrade, haven't been able to upload or download, the error > message being "serial input errors". > > Is Ron Fowler who wrote the program still around or Al Jewer who worked on > it? Alternatively, anybody here know what I'm talking about and who might > have a suggestion for a fix? > > Any assisstance greatly appreciated. Ron's still alive and I had an email from him about a year ago. He was doing sysadmin somewhere. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com Sat Sep 1 15:07:27 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <008701c1330f$ce71b910$1e789a8d@ajp166> from ajp166 at "Sep 1, 2001 01:51:58 pm" Message-ID: <200109012007.f81K7RZ34747@bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com> > > Existed as large button and also a teeshirt. > > |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| (digital keys logo in BLUE) > > the word unix in the no symbol (red circle with slash) > > and the words.... > > unix the unsystem, never had it never will. > > ca.1984 > > > Allison Damn... I wish I had one of those... Gotta get out the color printer T-Shirt printing stuff and go to work. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Sep 1 15:23:17 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <200109012023.f81KNIJ00466@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 1 Sep, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Some useable sounds might be: > > (printers, of course) Don't forget pen plotters hamering the pen down on to the paper, sirring steppers, ... > hard drive spinup & chatter load and unload of removable media (MOD, ...) > crt charge & discharge > floppy drive stepper motors > ps fans > cpu cooling fans and the pumps of the water cooling... > tape drives Uhhh. I have to record the sound of my 9 track pneumatic autoloader (cipher F880): klick, KLACK, (tape gets locked...) bss, bssss, (and rewound) fffffFFFFFFF.... (fan spins up), bss-shldl-shldl-shldl-shldl, (tape gets roled off and blown throgh the drive mechanics) klick-klack, klick-klack, klick-klack (tape gets caught at the other spindle) bsss, BSSS, BSSSSSSSSBSSSBSSS, (tape gets positioned at BOT) > ASR 33s > PAC readers > card readers modems and acoustic couplers beepers (in terminals) typing on a keyboard (with micro switchs) power and other switches start up sounds (Apple, SGI) opening and closing enclosures roling enclosures (with wheels) around -- tschuess, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 1 15:30:20 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: I've got the PA-RISC Blues . . . In-Reply-To: <20010901.110446.-79813.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: >I recently aquired an HP-9000/735-120, minus the RAM >and (I've just realized) the CPU! Grrrrrr. > >Anyone know of a reasonably-priced source for these >items? I have some memory and a processor out of a couple 725's, are they compatible? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 1 15:49:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread Message-ID: <00c101c13329$01873b40$1e789a8d@ajp166> From: Jeffrey S. Sharp >First, let's talk about fluids. It's been a while since I took a >chemistry class. Questions: > >* Is there no difference between 'isopropanol', 'isopropyl alcohol', and > 'propan-2-ol'? I supect local naming conventions for Isopropanol Alcohol. >* Are there any better fluids (methanol?) for certain situations? Methanol is to be avoided, very flamable. >* Can I find these at a hardware store? Yes. >* Is there anything I should look out for when using those fluids? That > is, is there anything (glue?) they can damage? Yes!!! Glues vary is solvency and solvents used so any one can be problmatic. MOST ALL are FLAMABLE. Many of the older (gray silicon plastic packages) are more liable to damage by agressive solvents. Water is the safest, generally. >My most important question deals with core stacks. Most of the board ....... >(0) Leave the two board assembleds; disassembly would likely cause > breakage. Should not if done with care. >(1) Blow canned air over the assembly and through the inter-board space. NO! the pressure could beak those fragile wires. >(2) Dip and swish the assembly in isopropyl alcohol. Likely ok, with great care to avoid putting mechanical forces on the core wires. >(3) Blow air over the boards with an unheated hair dryer or more canned > air. NO.. NO, NOOOOOOOO! canned air can be high pressure and Blowdryer is a risk for FIRE. Isopropanol is flammable and both the motor(brushes) and the heater are risk for sparks. Cleaning core is difficult due to the great fragility and the problem that the solder points for the wires can be weaker than the wire due to corrosion {possible environmental} and the stripping methods that may have been used to remove the insulating coating. More often than not the actual core mat is a cleaner location with plastic covers and the like. The latter suggests disassembly of the core stack to observe the condition and cleanliness as compared to the external boards (drivers and sense amps). Use care. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 15:23:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <3B912AE7.A6F7A1E8@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Sep 1, 1 02:37:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2558 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010901/05232617/attachment.ksh From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 1 16:12:19 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: Message-ID: <001d01c1332a$e46ee380$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> There was a nice x-y plotter around in 1980. It was basically a giant (2'x3') linear step motor with a Wide frequency range. Dual voiced since it was 2D. Wish I knew who made it. John A. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Sep 1 16:41:06 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net>; from foxnhare@jps.net on Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:29:38PM -0700 References: <200109010407.XAA77581@opal.tseinc.com> <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: <20010901144106.A13763@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Fri, Aug 31, 2001 at 10:29:38PM -0700, Larry Anderson wrote: > > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like > to wear? "I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere!" (I think I saw, on the Web, a picture of a USENIX conference button with this saying on it.) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 1 17:51:10 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Stupid Powersupply question Message-ID: Subject says it all. If I've got a StorageWorks shelf with a 150W Powersupply, I don't draw 150W do I? I simply draw the sum of the number of disks in the shelf. Trying to see if I've got this down right as I need to add some disks and the cost of power is going up again. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Sep 1 18:09:53 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: The "MEX" program & is ron Fowler still around In-Reply-To: <200109012002.NAA04510@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: You might want to investigate using IMP instead. g. On Sat, 1 Sep 2001 pdan@primenet.com wrote: > Yes, still using the MEX program for my UNIX dialup on my 1GH computer > and since the upgrade, haven't been able to upload or download, the error > message being "serial input errors". > > Is Ron Fowler who wrote the program still around or Al Jewer who worked on > it? Alternatively, anybody here know what I'm talking about and who might > have a suggestion for a fix? > > Any assisstance greatly appreciated. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 15:51:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread In-Reply-To: <20010901132521.I12087-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Sep 1, 1 02:29:57 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4292 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010901/bb42f57b/attachment.ksh From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Sep 1 17:55:09 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: I've got the PA-RISC Blues . . . References: <20010901.110446.-79813.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: <004b01c1333a$a3e61850$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 12:04 PM Subject: I've got the PA-RISC Blues . . . > > I recently aquired an HP-9000/735-120, minus the RAM > and (I've just realized) the CPU! Grrrrrr. > > Anyone know of a reasonably-priced source for these > items? YESI have a source for about 15 9000/712/715/725's in mixed condition, I'm sure there will be a spare CPU after reassemble. Where are you located? May also be some RAM leftover I'm looking to rebuild one or 2 fully loaded machines then trade the rest. From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sat Sep 1 18:07:13 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3B916A21.B8D617FF@tinyworld.co.uk> Glen Goodwin wrote: > > Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of ideas for using > computer sounds to make music. > > So what did I miss (classic or non)? Get yourself a *real* VT100. Type ESC [ 137 q and start pressing keys. You've got yourself a musical keyboard. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 17:50:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Stupid Powersupply question In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 1, 1 03:51:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 951 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010901/1b57d87b/attachment.ksh From jss at subatomix.com Sat Sep 1 18:17:32 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread In-Reply-To: <00c101c13329$01873b40$1e789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <20010901180018.Y12494-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 1 Sep 2001, ajp166 wrote: > > Water is the safest, generally. Do you suggest I dip the core stack in distilled water instead of isopropyl alcohol? > >(1) Blow canned air over the assembly and through the inter-board space. > > NO! the pressure could beak those fragile wires. How about if I blew the air from a distance? There's got to be a happy medium between a point-blank discharge and spraying from across the room. > Blowdryer is a risk for FIRE. Got it. No blow dryers. > More often than not the actual core mat is a cleaner location with > plastic covers and the like. Not in this case. The G617 daughtercard is mounted over the G616 as a plastic cover would normally be, with its core side facing the core on the G616. Holding the board up to light and peering into the space between the two boards, I can see quite a few dust clumps. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Sep 1 18:24:29 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party -- additional questions - SOLVED! References: <000501c130ce$7c2e2640$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> <008101c131d0$22031330$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <00bf01c1333d$414dbd80$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:50 PM Subject: PDP 11/34 work party -- additional questions > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Kenzie" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 5:05 PM > Subject: PDP 11/34 work party > > > > Well this is the weekend that I'll try and get the PDP 11/34 running > > as well as the AS400's in the garage. > > Everything is out of the rack except for one card cage. I can get it > our about half way and it tilts but I can't get it free so I can open > it up for cleaning and checking the power supply. > > Any ideas? After a lot of fiddling we noticed the bar running down the side of the rack. It didn't move or do much then noticed that it moved down into the base, then noticed the exteneded feet and after replaing one of the latched got it open and the top unit out enough to get the power supply off for testing. So to get the units out of the rack the legs on the front of the rack must be fully exteneded! Also noticed the Power plug for the rack looks like a 30 amp, the other rack has a 15 amp plug. Has it been modified? Can the unit run with 15 amp service? From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Sep 1 19:17:28 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: New Finds on the first day of a long weekend Message-ID: <007e01c13344$a7c542c0$80721fd1@default> Spent most of the day hunting at flea markets and a few thrift stores and this what I have so far: 1. Felt & Tarrant Comptometer missing two key covers but otherwise OK. 2. TI Dataman and manual 3. Several mousepads for that part of the collection. 4. The VMS User's Guide by James F. Peters and Patrick J. Holmay 5. Heathkit Student Workbook on Microprocessors And many more to new to list here yet. Have a fun holiday to all and keep computing. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 1 19:24:34 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread Message-ID: <00f801c13346$6eb2e670$1e789a8d@ajp166> From: Jeffrey S. Sharp >Do you suggest I dip the core stack in distilled water instead of >isopropyl alcohol? Isopropanol is ok for the core stack but only if seriously required. Use only the pure {99.5%} as rubbing alcohol can be up to 70% water! >How about if I blew the air from a distance? There's got to be a happy >medium between a point-blank discharge and spraying from across the room. Do so with the greatest care. Allison From marvin at rain.org Sat Sep 1 19:28:39 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: "New" Books References: <007e01c13344$a7c542c0$80721fd1@default> Message-ID: <3B917D37.D6370A84@rain.org> I went to the thrift store after a tip from someone who works there, and found: Fire in the Valley - The Making of the Personal computer Norsk Data - A Success Story Corporate Crisis - NCR and the Computer Revolution Blue Magic - The People, Power, and Politics Behind the IBM Personal Computer West of Eden - The Endo of Innocence at Apple Computer The Computer Establishment The Computer Entrepteneurs - Who's making it big and how in America's upstart industry Apple - The inside story of intrigue, egomania, and business blunders plus a number of other books about NCR, IBM, and ITT. The most interesting right now is "Norsk Data" written by Per Oyvind Heradstveit. Among other history of the company, it describes a bit about the development of SAM1, SAM2, and the Nordic computer systems. These are brand new names to me, so they are especially interesting!!! From rcini at optonline.net Sat Sep 1 19:34:12 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Altair benchmark Message-ID: Hi: I came across a very simple benchmark program that I'd like to use in comparing the speed of a real Altair to that of the Altair32 emulator: org 0 start: ei lxi b,0 ; inner loop = 65536 times mvi d,50 ; outer loop = 50 times loop: push b ; this is just to increase the instruction count push d push h push psw pop psw pop h pop d pop b dcx b mov a,b ora c ; done with inner loop? jnz loop ; if not, keep going dcr d ; do this 50 times jnz loop hlt ; done with speed test end start I would appreciate it if someone with an Altair could put this in and time, in seconds, how long it takes to perform this test. I already know that the Altair32 is painfully slow, primarily because of the graphics routines used to draw the front panel LEDs. Disabling LED updating improves the speed greatly. Doing this, unfortunately, results in you have a Turnkey system... Thanks to all. Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Sep 1 20:02:32 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: "New" Books References: <007e01c13344$a7c542c0$80721fd1@default> <3B917D37.D6370A84@rain.org> Message-ID: <008901c1334a$f30b8720$80721fd1@default> Great Finds !! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marvin Johnston" To: Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: "New" Books > > I went to the thrift store after a tip from someone who works there, and > found: > > Fire in the Valley - The Making of the Personal computer > Norsk Data - A Success Story > Corporate Crisis - NCR and the Computer Revolution > Blue Magic - The People, Power, and Politics Behind the IBM Personal > Computer > West of Eden - The Endo of Innocence at Apple Computer > The Computer Establishment > The Computer Entrepteneurs - Who's making it big and how in America's > upstart industry > Apple - The inside story of intrigue, egomania, and business blunders > > plus a number of other books about NCR, IBM, and ITT. The most > interesting right now is "Norsk Data" written by Per Oyvind Heradstveit. > Among other history of the company, it describes a bit about the > development of SAM1, SAM2, and the Nordic computer systems. These are > brand new names to me, so they are especially interesting!!! > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 1 21:58:45 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Altair benchmark Message-ID: <010b01c1335b$73fc9c60$1e789a8d@ajp166> From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. org 0 start: 4 ei 10 lxi b,0 ; inner loop = 65536 times 7 mvi d,50 ; outer loop = 50 times ;;; one time setup 21 cycles (10.5 uS) loop: 11 push b ; this is just to increase the instruction count 11 push d 11 push h 11 push psw 10 pop psw 10 pop h 10 pop d 10 pop b 5 dcx b 5 mov a,b 4 ora c ; done with inner loop? 10 jnz loop ; if not, keep going Main loop 108 cycles, 8080A JNZ is 10 tcy pass or fail condition. 65536*108=7077888cy (3.538944 sec)... assuming one wait state per memory access the 108 becomes 138cy, 65536*138=9043968cy (4.521 sec) this adds 15cy or 7.5us to the loop 50 times. 5 dcr d ; do this 50 times 10 jnz loop The two loops total 176947575uS (176.947 sec) or 353895150 clock cycles assuming NO wait states. one wait state per memory access will add considerably to the loop times (>226sec!). housekeeping 3.5us 7 hlt ; done with speed test end start I would appreciate it if someone with an Altair could put this in and time, in seconds, how long it takes to perform this test. About an hour.... first 55 minutes to toggle it in and watch it crash repeatedly. Then there were the crashes due to bus noise... Seriously if you have the 8080 book you can calculate it as the basic altair was 2.00 mhz (500ns Tcy) with no wait state ram. if you had 88S4k the wait states for refresh were asynchronous and hard to predict. If the ram was 88s4k the refresh was invisible as it was synchronous. If you got it right.... roughly 177 seconds for no mait memory and somewhere around 227seconds for memory requiring one wait state per access. 8085 and z80s execute this faster for the same clock due to different numbers for instructing timing such as jumps which have shorter timing if the condition fails. Allison From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Sep 1 22:35:12 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <20010902033647.IBN12955.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of ideas for using computer > > sounds to make music. I have a recording studio hung off my main > > non-classic box, so I can add this to my List of Unfinished Projects. Some > > useable sounds might be: > > > > (printers, of course) > > hard drive spinup & chatter > > Head crashes :-) I considered that but don't know of any way to consistently get heads to crash in such a controlled manner as to be useable musically (i.e., makes pretty much the same sound every time). Do you? (Is this subject OT if I'm using > 10 year old gear? And if I'm deliberately causing classic hard drive heads to destroy themselves, hmm . . . is it okay if I only use ST-225s??? ;>) Glen 0/0 From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Sep 1 22:37:43 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Altair benchmark In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010901201023.00a85620@postoffice.pacbell.net> >... > I already know that the Altair32 is painfully slow, primarily > because of >the graphics routines used to draw the front panel LEDs. Disabling LED >updating improves the speed greatly. Doing this, unfortunately, results in >you have a Turnkey system... > > Thanks to all. Rich -- I looked at your altair32 code a while back, but it was pretty cursory and it was a while ago so I don't recall how the program is structured. I'd hope that there is a section of code that emulates the hardware, and a pretty clean separation of the code that handles the windows GUI stuff. I'd imagine that after each cycle, some part of the CPU emulator section calls the GUI part to indicate what each LED should be set to. It sounds like right now the GUI part requests a BLIT of each LED state, either on or off, each cycle, which would eat up lots and lots of times since, in theory, there should be millions of these blits per second when the CPU isn't single stepping. As it stands, you might BLIT a given LED thousands of times a second, but you only get to see the one blit that was most recent at the time the screen is scanned at a 60 or 72 hz rate. That is, 99% of the current BLITs get overwritten before any of them show up on the screen. I have two suggestions that vary in complexity and results. If you are happy with the current visual appearance of the LEDs and can live with the temporal aliasing, there is something very simply you can do. As the CPU part emulates the processor, it just goes on its merry way and doesn't tell the GUI anything. Set up a 60 or 72 (or whatever) Hz timer on the windows side of the house. The timer handler then gets the most recent LED state when it gets triggered and does the BLIT of on or off for each LED, skipping thousands of updates that would never be seen anyway. It is not important to synchronize the update to the screen to the actual screen refresh rate. Here is a second way that is more complicated, but gives superior results. Every time the GUI is called with a "turn LED on" or "turn LED off" request, don't do the BLIT. Instead, just tally how many "on" requests you get out of the total number of requests you get. In the GUI part of the code, set up a windows timer to trigger each 60th or 72nd of a second. When the timer goes off, the timer handler looks at what percentage of the time each LED was supposed to be on vs off. You should then BLIT an image of the LED that is x% on (how fine grained you want to make this is up to you, but probably 16 levels of on-ness is good enough). Also reset the LED duty cycle counters to 0. This assumes that the LED update gets called every cycle. If the update rate is variable, then you need to also know how many cycles have passed since the last update so that you can properly calculate the weighted average of the on vs off time. Not only will this save 99% of the BLITs you are doing, but it will perform a temporal antialiasing. In your existing code and my first simple suggestion, you are effectively sampling a 2 MHz signal at 72 Hz. Depending on what the 2 MHz signal looks like, you could get some strange output. This second more complicated suggestion effectively implements a box lowpass filter. Once your emulator runs faster than real time, then implementing automatic rate regulation gets interesting, and is a lot more heuristic. But that's another subject... ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Sep 1 22:44:40 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <20010902034615.LXUC19165.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Don't forget pen plotters hamering the pen down on to the paper, sirring > steppers, ... > load and unload of removable media (MOD, ...) > and the pumps of the water cooling... > modems and acoustic couplers > beepers (in terminals) > typing on a keyboard (with micro switchs) > power and other switches > start up sounds (Apple, SGI) > opening and closing enclosures > roling enclosures (with wheels) around Thanks for these very fine suggestions! I can also use the tape-loading sounds from my ZX81 and TS2068! Glen 0/0 From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Sep 1 23:16:54 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:12 2005 Subject: Unibus/QBus boards available FT Message-ID: <20010901231654.R23531@mrbill.net> I dont currently have a system that I can use these in, so I'd like to trade them for LSI-11 stuff, DEC rack pieces/parts/header panels, or ham radio-related equipment. If you can help me ID the couple of boards I couldnt find in the field guide, please do. H215 (core! qty. 2) 8-Kword 18-bit (parity) (used in MM11-LP, ME15) M7850 Parity board for G651, MS11-EP/FP/HP/JP M920 (qty. 2) UNIBUS connector G727A Grant continuity card G231E (Qty. 3) 16K XY Selection, Current source, Address Latch, 8K Decode. G109 ("CONTROL AND DATA LOOPS" ?) ???? ("16K MOS UNIBUS MEMORY") M9760 ? M957 ? bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From jpl15 at panix.com Sun Sep 2 00:20:08 2001 From: jpl15 at panix.com (John Lawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010902034615.LXUC19165.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: I recall the attention of Listmembers to the thread some months (a year?) back, concerning the various pieces of music actually programmed into the driver routines of some large plotters... IIRC there were some Calcomp models that could, by means of undocumented button-presses, be made to launch into a stepper-motor rendition of Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries.. and others that knowledgeable folk offered at that time. Cheers John From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 2 03:05:06 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread In-Reply-To: <20010901180018.Y12494-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <00c101c13329$01873b40$1e789a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >G616. Holding the board up to light and peering into the space between >the two boards, I can see quite a few dust clumps. And this might effect the operation how? Never clean technology like a kitchen, some places dirt isn't nearly the problem that cleaning it is. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 2 03:19:27 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Curses, foiling them In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010823090307.02c1b340@pc> References: <000d01c12bd9$364e8e20$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: >As for the language, I've always thought that if you >wouldn't say it in the boardroom or in front of a reporter, >you shouldn't say it on a mailing list. I was on BBSs a lot before the net, and bad, ie dirty, language was a sure sign of pimpled teenager taking dads computer for a test drive. I can be dork in real life more than sufficient for my needs, so why wave a flag on the net where people can think you are a civilized decent person? From gknight at emugaming.com Sun Sep 2 04:12:38 2001 From: gknight at emugaming.com (Gareth Knight) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: "New" Books References: <007e01c13344$a7c542c0$80721fd1@default> <3B917D37.D6370A84@rain.org> Message-ID: <004c01c1338f$b3f4f680$bc4afea9@magnus> Marvin Johnston wrote: > Apple - The inside story of intrigue, egomania, and business blunders Is that the one written by Jim Cartlan (or something like that). I read it last year, really interesting book if you are unsure about Apple history and contained a few surprises about Microsoft's involvement (Re: Apple Cloning in the mid-1980s). -- Gareth Knight Amiga Interactive Guide http://amiga.emugaming.com Home of the Amiga magazine guide, Complete Amiga prototype/official/clone list, and more! From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 2 07:15:38 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We had a locally made poster for our electronics classes when I taught on Chanute AFB int he mid 80's but it had AND NAND OR NOR for the gate names, otherise the same. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell -> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 1:05 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Geek Button Sayings -> -> -> > -> > -> > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase -> > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like -> > to wear? -> -> Hackers know all the right MOVs -> -> A 14 inch hard beats a 3.5 inch floppy -> -> You can have SEX with a Dragon but not with an Apple -> -> The gates in my computer are AND, OR, and NOT, not Bill [this -> was my .sig -> at one time] -> -> Doubtless I'll think of more later... -> -> -tony -> -> From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 2 08:03:30 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B916A21.B8D617FF@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <002c01c133af$aa1ff900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> > Get yourself a *real* VT100. Type ESC [ 137 q and start > pressing keys. You've got yourself a musical keyboard. This is fantastic, never heard of it. It's not in the vt100 pocket guide for example. Are you sure it wasn't for a custom version? John A. From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun Sep 2 10:17:11 2001 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (wanderer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: 2 M7800 available References: <20010828163913.X2395-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <40486.210.138.200.5.999067236.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3B924D77.413EDF34@xs4all.nl> I have 2 M7800 availabe for $5/each + cost of postage. Ed -- The Wanderer | Politici zijn gore oplichters. quapla@xs4all.nl | Europarlementariers: zakkenvullers http://www.xs4all.nl/~quapla | en neuspeuteraars. Unix Lives! M$ Windows is rommel! | Kilometerheffing : De overheid '97 TL1000S | weet waar je bent geweest! From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1493.monmouth.com Sun Sep 2 08:55:00 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1493.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Alcohol and DEC hardware In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Sep 1, 2001 09:51:44 pm" Message-ID: <200109021355.f82Dt0r01492@bg-tc-ppp1493.monmouth.com> > Hmmm... propan-2-ol is safe on just about all computer parts (it will > soften some glues, and IIRC it can attack some optical plastics, but it's > safe on things like disk and tape heads). Watch out... the CDC 9762/9766 heads use a glue which will disolve with isopropyl... The only thing certified to clean them is the paper punch card stock and maybe trichlorotrifluroethane. The other item which had a problem with alcohol was the glass bead liner tape on the TE/TU16, TU45 and TU77/78. They could handle it sparingly... be very careful not to over use it or you'll be scraping off the glass bead tape and reapplying it. Bill From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 2 11:41:43 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3B926147.CC9F81A3@socal.rr.com> Glen Goodwin wrote: > This is fantastic -- thanks for sharing. > > Being a musician, this conjures up all sorts of ideas for using computer > sounds to make music. I have a recording studio hung off my main > non-classic box, so I can add this to my List of Unfinished Projects. Occasionally, I use the tone generators from "classic" 8-bit computers in some of my music projects: http://stylophonic.lerctr.org/music.html I also have a Sharp calculator that makes neat sounds when you put it near an AM radio...I plan to do something (musical) with that when I get around to it... From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sun Sep 2 11:52:44 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B916A21.B8D617FF@tinyworld.co.uk> <002c01c133af$aa1ff900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B9263DC.46911EF9@tinyworld.co.uk> John Allain wrote: > > > Get yourself a *real* VT100. Type ESC [ 137 q and start > > pressing keys. You've got yourself a musical keyboard. > > This is fantastic, never heard of it. It's not in the vt100 pocket > guide for example. Are you sure it wasn't for a custom version? I'm sure; it's a VT100 bug. You need a standard VT100 with keyclick turned on. I've only just acquired a VT100 myself and I was playing with this yesterday. There aren't that many notes available, but I've not yet determined how many there are. This trick came from Sloppy's page of VT100 Oddities at From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 2 12:46:13 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B926147.CC9F81A3@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c133d7$29566e80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> --------- I also have a Sharp calculator that makes neat sounds when you put it near an AM radio.. --------- LED Calculators transduced by a Casette player head work real well. You have to experiment to find the best pick-up point on the calculator, Just press play and move the calc around a bit. Then use a programmable..... John A. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Sep 2 13:19:13 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Stupid Powersupply question References: Message-ID: <3B927821.A067A4F8@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > Subject says it all. If I've got a StorageWorks shelf with a 150W > Powersupply, I don't draw 150W do I? I simply draw the sum of the number > of disks in the shelf. Trying to see if I've got this down right as I need > to add some disks and the cost of power is going up again. Jerome Fine replies: I don't know if this will help. Let us assume that (electrical) energy cost $ US 1.00 per kilowatt hour. That is the same as a power supply which draws 100 Watts for 10 hours or 500 Watts for 2 hours. If you run the StorageWorks shelf and it draws even 100 Watts (usually the ratting is the maximum and it will normally draw much less), then in one day that it runs 10 hours, it will end up costing $ US 1.00 for that day. So an Air Conditioner (funny name for a cooling device) that draws 4000 Watts (a circuit of 220 Volts and 18.18 Amps on each of the 110 Volt phases) will cost $ US 4.00 an hour to run. Of course, the circulating fan in the house or the apartment will add to that cost, but probably only by about 10%. The formula: Power (Watts) = Voltage (Volts) * Current (Amps) Also: Energy (WattHours) = Power (Watts) * Time (Hours) Note also that my example price was $ US 1.00 per KiloWattHour, NOT just WattHour. It is the difference between speed and distance and time. You can't go a speed of just 10 miles and your distance is never in 20 miles per hour. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 2 13:42:30 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: <20010901040446.YWPJ22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B926147.CC9F81A3@socal.rr.com> <000d01c133d7$29566e80$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3B927D96.5D4BF7DD@socal.rr.com> John Allain wrote: > --------- > I also have a Sharp calculator that makes neat > sounds when you put it near an AM radio.. > --------- > > LED Calculators transduced by a Casette player head > work real well. You have to experiment to find the best > pick-up point on the calculator, > Just press play and move the calc around a bit. > Then use a programmable..... I'll have to try that. My calc has a gas-discharge display, not LED, though... In my experience, the newer LCD models don't seem to make a lot of radio noise. I just tried my HP15C near an AM radio, and all I got was a rather quiet, high pitched beep.... From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Sep 2 15:46:09 2001 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model III broken wire puzzle In-Reply-To: <200108310355.WAA58952@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hi folks, My gf brought me back said TRS80 MIII (16K model, no floppies) from her trip to New Jersey a couple of weeks ago, surprisingly it's a 240V model. Anyway, it suffered the usual airport baggage handling 'techniques' and the VDU broke away from its mountings. Fortunately the neck hasn't broken so it should be salvageable unless there's a hairline crack somewhere I've missed. Anyway, I've glued everything back in place and it's whole again; however there's 1 wire that's broken free from *somewhere* on the screen itself but I can't see where. It's black and goes to a post marked E306 on the VDU board that's normally screwed to the left hand side of the case. E306 itself is part of the grounding circuit, so have any of you TRS80 III owners got the schematics for the VDU circuit? Thanks in advance, -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - The online Computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly Gothic shenanigans From fernande at internet1.net Sun Sep 2 15:33:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Who neded that DEC BA440 power supply? Message-ID: <3B92978F.13097976@internet1.net> I deleted your email. Did you find one? I have an extra, from a R400X, but am not sure how to test it. Would $20 plus shipping be appropriate? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 15:49:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Alcohol and DEC hardware In-Reply-To: <200109021355.f82Dt0r01492@bg-tc-ppp1493.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Sep 2, 1 09:55:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010902/453e51e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 15:45:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010902033647.IBN12955.imf17bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 1, 1 11:35:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 865 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010902/c449812f/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 15:41:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: PDP 11/34 work party -- additional questions - SOLVED! In-Reply-To: <00bf01c1333d$414dbd80$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from "Mike Kenzie" at Sep 1, 1 07:24:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 699 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010902/13895018/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 16:02:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model III broken wire puzzle In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Sep 2, 1 09:46:09 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1447 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010902/bf4ba463/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 16:10:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <3B927D96.5D4BF7DD@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Sep 2, 1 11:42:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1167 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010902/4876a5de/attachment.ksh From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Sep 2 19:02:19 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: DEC Design References: <200109012005.f81K53734696@bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3B92C88B.87DA6F79@idirect.com> >Bill Pechter wrote: > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Actually, I think the best use for an RX50 drive is what my grandson > > did one day - took a VERY LARGE SLEDGE HAMMER and ... > Yup. They really bit and everyone at DEC new it. Jerome Fine replies: Actually, at the time I had rescued about 3 dozen from the dumptser and my grandson was feeling a bit snarky. So I let him at one. I still have over a dozen (minus the black plastic sled which is all I really rescued them for). One day the remaining RX50 drives will have to go unless someone wants to pick them up in Toronto. > > Other than a CPU, DEC never seemed to manage to make decent > > hardware the first time around. Even the software had bugs that > > were really dumb. Of course, compared with M$, DEC software > > was Platinum compared to Tin (is there anything less than tin?). > > [But since DEC was bought in 1996?, that is OT] > Actually, DEC's tape drives were abysmal in design (not counting the > DECtapes which were really reel-to-reel disk drives. Do you mean the TU-58? I am looking for one!! I have one that does not work and I want to replace the bad part. The rollers are OK. This is the external TU-58 with two drives in a black box. Does anyone have one? Even if it is not working, perhaps I can cut and paste. > Their disks had no more bugs than anyone elses and they were just on the > pricey side. Think of the RC25!! I know that is not a good example, but... > The RL0x's were pretty slick and the RK05/6/7's were ok. RM80's needed > the RA81's 400+meg hda to be competitive... The RA81's would've been > nice if the breather glue problem didn't occur. I agree that the RL02 was finally a reasonable drive and not out of line with DEC standards as far as price. > The DEC stuff was always pretty good maintenance wise with good diags > and offline capabilities and testers. When the drive was basically OK and worked in the first place - the RC25 again. Yes I agree it was an isolated example. I don't think that even the TK50 was as bad. > Lots of other manufacturers didn't do as well in this area -- but DEC > milked the prices a bit too much and spawned a plug-compatible push > which their Massbus patents killed. The BIbus was another example. What DEC seemed to never be able to understand was that co-operation produced more benefit than attempting to hog all of the market for just their own benefit. From a close understanding of one VAR in Toronto who was selling 80% DEC in 1985 and 20% DEC by 1988, DEC shot themselves in the foot (i.e. Ken Olsen and his VPs) probably without even realizing it. So when Olsen (was forced?) left, the shell had already collapsed. And while the PDP-11 and VMS might have rescued DEC if the marketing had changed, there seemed to be too much inertia to make the needed changes. I always had a joke about that: "What was DEC's marketing policy around 1985?" Add nothing! - Buy the product elsewhere - add a ZERO to the price (on the right hand side) and resell it. "What was DEC's hardware policy around 1985?" The same - add nothing! Buy a Micropolis 1325 and add that ZERO ohm resistor so it could be formatted by an RQDX2,3. I realize these are bad jokes, but the kernel of truth is there. Of course I have the same joke about Honeywell and their thermostat for my AC. Differences were: (a) Decal was changed from "HEAT/OFF" to "COOL/OFF/HEAT" (b) Doubled the price from one function to two (c) Removed a bolt from the actuator arm to allow the third position to be used. Also Seagate did the same with their 20/40 MByte disk drives! So DEC was no more predatory that M$ in many ways, they were just too stupid to realize that it does not pay in the long run if you don't have enough clout. Plus, those third party VARs sold a lot of software for DEC until they were cut off - also stupid! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From nerdware at laidbak.com Sun Sep 2 19:39:20 2001 From: nerdware at laidbak.com (Paul Braun) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model III and Model 12 have to go.... Message-ID: <200109030042.f830gUq29481@grover.winsite.com> I had mentioned these before, but unfortunately dumped the email by accident..... I have a Model III complete with software and Model 12 with 2 external hard drives and keyboard. I assume they work (at least the Model III had worked the last time the donor who gave it to me used it....) I'm in Northwest Indiana, about 40 minutes East of Chicago. These are too big and bulky for me to deal with packing and shipping....I would prefer that they be picked up. I'm never gonna get around to playing with them, and they are taking up a huge amount of shelf space that I need for other things. I don't want to scrap 'em....but I would like them gone by the end of the month. I've already done my big Tandy display at the local library, and I realized just how bulky they are when I tried to shoehorn 'em into my Impreza.....I'm sticking with smaller stuff from now on. Ok, the Lisa II is and exception. ;o) Please. Give these a good home. Thanks. Please contact me off-list and we can arrange something Paul Braun WD9GCO Cygnus Productions nerdware_nospam@laidbak.com "A computer without a Microsoft operating system is like a dog without a bunch of bricks tied to its head." From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 2 20:20:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: DEC Design Message-ID: <015501c13418$4d0a1390$1e789a8d@ajp166> From: Jerome Fine >Do you mean the TU-58? I am looking for one!! I have one that does not >work and I want to replace the bad part. The rollers are OK. This is >the external TU-58 with two drives in a black box. Does anyone have one? >Even if it is not working, perhaps I can cut and paste. Err what part are you looking for so it could possibly be found? I have one of the external TU-58s, no I'm not scrapping it. Allison From jss at subatomix.com Sun Sep 2 20:45:58 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010902203902.H14198-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > > G616. Holding the board up to light and peering into the space > > between the two boards, I can see quite a few dust clumps. > > And this might effect the operation how? Who knows... There's no telling what's actually *in* those clumps. I know nothing of the environment(s?) in which the machine was stored. It's possible that there could be something conductive in there. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From chobbs at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 2 22:02:21 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers References: Message-ID: <3B92F2BD.55606109@socal.rr.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > I'll have to try that. My calc has a gas-discharge display, not LED, > > though... > > Do you mean gas discharge (like the Sumlock Compucorp on my desk with a > Panaplex display), or vacuum fluorescent (the green displays used on a > number of 1970's hand-held calculators)? Probably vacuum fluorescent. Gas-discharge would be more like Nixies, right? From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 3 00:31:15 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <20010903053251.JPZI22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Hey Tony -- I wrote: > > I considered that but don't know of any way to consistently get heads to > > crash in such a controlled manner as to be useable musically (i.e., makes > > pretty much the same sound every time). > > > > Do you? Tony replied: > If I was mad enough to attempt this, Is this your opinion of my state of mind? ;>) > I'd record the sound of a head > crash, and then replay it as necessary. Either digitally (whereupon you > could vary the pitch, etc I believe) or on good old analogue tape, and > then fiddle with the speed on playback if necessary). Sure, I can record to my hard drive and then manipulate the resultant file in all sorts of ways. But I want to "play" the device -- like a musical instrument -- for at least a few dozen times in order to gain some control over the sound which is produced. Ideally I want to write a program to crash the heads so that I can play the drive the same way I push the buttons on a printer to obtain certain sounds. Let's say I take an ST-225 and a WD controller and stick them in a PC and I want the heads to bang out a rhythm, then screech to a halt. Any suggestions? Glen 0/0 From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Sep 3 02:09:05 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <3B92F2BD.55606109@socal.rr.com> References: <3B92F2BD.55606109@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <20010903020905.I23531@mrbill.net> On Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:02:21PM -0700, charles hobbs wrote: > > Do you mean gas discharge (like the Sumlock Compucorp on my desk with a > > Panaplex display), or vacuum fluorescent (the green displays used on a > > number of 1970's hand-held calculators)? > Probably vacuum fluorescent. Gas-discharge would be more like Nixies, right? Speaking of, kinda related, anybody know where I can get one of the 21" DEC orange gas plasma displays? I forget the model number right now, but I've been looking for one of them for quite a while... Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com Mon Sep 3 03:07:33 2001 From: Alan.Pearson at cramersystems.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Bowing out (temporarily) Message-ID: Just a quickie to say I'm bowing out for a while, I'm being laid off this week (telecoms bubble finally burst here too)... heh heh, plenty of free time to get the PERQ monitor fixed at last. I suppose I ought to attempt to find another job too, every silver lining has it's cloud ;-) Nice to have "met" you all, hopefully I'll be back soon! Cheers Al. From benwarden at earthlink.net Mon Sep 3 08:15:08 2001 From: benwarden at earthlink.net (Bennie Warden) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Must be a typo! Message-ID: <00c101c1347a$760cf660$98800e3f@stu.adelphia.net> Don't smoke - corrected the typo, and sold it for $14.98 on 4 May 1999 Bennie R Warden - Bookseller 39 South Alhambra Lane 561.878.9645 Port Saint Lucie FL 34952-2832 VISA - Master Card - Discover/Novus - Check/MO From harryb at charter.net Mon Sep 3 08:35:48 2001 From: harryb at charter.net (Harry Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: HELP on Laserjet Plus error code 60 References: <200109030540.AAA01913@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <000401c1347d$577b4fa0$90d2d818@harry> I am getting a blinking 60 on the panel of my trusty Lasjet Plus printer. Was attempting to set up a parallel port scanner, and plugged the printer on passthru. This is on a W2K system (sorry guys). Scanner no work, and error code started. Have re-installed driver, plugged printer back in direct, but still get error code. No help on printer or HP web sites, cause unit is too old (like its owner). Has someone got docs, or a link to the user manual ? Any hints welcome. Harry From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Sep 3 08:55:57 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: I've got the PA-RISC Blues . . . Message-ID: <8b.bea99d5.28c4e5ed@aol.com> In a message dated 09/01/2001 12:27:42, you wrote: > >I recently aquired an HP-9000/735-120, minus the RAM >and (I've just realized) the CPU! Grrrrrr. > >Anyone know of a reasonably-priced source for these >items? > Try Mike Nicewongers site twmaster.com From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Sep 3 09:19:04 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Altair benchmark In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010901201023.00a85620@postoffice.pacbell.net> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010903091609.02cd1460@pc> At 08:37 PM 9/1/01 -0700, Jim Battle wrote: >As it stands, you might BLIT a given LED thousands of times a second, but you only get to see the one blit that was most recent at the time the screen is scanned at a 60 or 72 hz rate. That is, 99% of the current BLITs get overwritten before any of them show up on the screen. Speaking from years of experience with Windows apps with status message displays, I'll confirm they can consume the vast majority of CPU time if improperly coded. Even sampling at 60 Hz is overkill. I bet that even six times a second will seem like a blur. - John From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 3 09:28:40 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Nabu Computers Available... References: <3AE6196E.F865B1B1@ptd.net> Message-ID: <009301c13485$731bc8e0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2001 8:25 PM Subject: Nabu Computers Available... > > This might be of interest to somebody here (hopefully)... > > Surplus Traders (www.73.com) currently has 35 Nabu computers for $29.00 > a pop, plus shipping. Normally they do bulk sales, but they will sell > the Nabu individually. (Search for item CR356.) > > I picked one up a while ago, and mine was still 'new', in the box, with > a factory seal. Then again, since this surplus, it might be best to > verify that the units are 'new' if that's important to you. Can you post some picutures. I have a machine that the owner mentioned was built by John kelly. My unit looks like it has tape drives on the front (8 track?) and a serial port and baud rate switch on the back. There are no labels or numbers on the outside of the box so I'm thinking it was a prototype or unit build for internal purposes. Last summer I had picked up a few prototype machines from Bull before They were bought out by REBEL and are now bankrupt. From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 3 10:44:29 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread References: <20010902203902.H14198-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B93A55D.C11F9853@tiac.net> Core memory is woven with insulated wire. Dust should NOT be a factor. There are some nasty dust-bunnies living in some of my core stacks, and the core seems to like it that way. If its not broken, don't fix it! "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > > G616. Holding the board up to light and peering into the space > > > between the two boards, I can see quite a few dust clumps. > > > > And this might effect the operation how? > > Who knows... There's no telling what's actually *in* those clumps. I know > nothing of the environment(s?) in which the machine was stored. It's > possible that there could be something conductive in there. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 3 11:00:11 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Imlac progress! References: <3.0.5.32.20010824071105.008a1bd0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3B93A90B.4D2B5E76@tiac.net> Hi Tom, A late night with the Imlac gave me a good step forward towards fixing the vector generation. I now know exactly what the problem is, although I've not found and repaired the cause. Let me correct that, I've found at least one problem... Apparently my Imlac cannot make any negative Y-axis displacements in short vector (increment) mode. Any vector made with a -Y axis deflection is drawn with a +Y axis displacement. So the 'H' and 'E' of "HELLO" are totally misformed. Probing with a scope (and the extender board) shows that the subtract signal going into the Y axis accumulator LSB is stuck low. Checking this at the input to the 8-bit instruction register (slot 220) shows that the input data for that bit is toggeling as the 'hello' program runs, but the output from the 7495 latch is stuck low. I'm not sure that the latch is bad however, I've replaced the card in slot 220 with no effect. Perhaps that net is sorted, or some other device on that net is pulling it down really hard. Assuming that every board I've swapped is good (not a safe assumption) than then the cause of the problem would have to be the input gate on the display program counter board, which has not (yet) been swapped. Now then, there is another problem I'll have to look at. When I run the HELLO program, I get a much too-tall, corrupted H and E, the two L's are fine... But there is no O, nor even any attempt at drawing the O. If I'm lucky, this is a display program counter problem that will go away when I fix the negative Y axis deflection problem. I can't see how this (-Y) problem would totally prevent the formation of vectors for the O, but I've not started looking at that just yet. Also, I've looked at the power supply (mechanically). Normally its been tucked away under the corner of the dining room table, so the exposed transformer AC leads are out of harms way. Its not nearly as tightly packed as I'd originally thought, and its probably very simple to re-cap this supply. So at this point my plan will be to get the other power supply section and rebuilt it with new caps, then install it into the Imlac. Hopefully this will address the DAC power supply noise thats making my vectors unstable. From jrasite at eoni.com Mon Sep 3 11:27:35 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: HELP on Laserjet Plus error code 60 References: <200109030540.AAA01913@opal.tseinc.com> <000401c1347d$577b4fa0$90d2d818@harry> Message-ID: <3B93AF42.434C73AE@eoni.com> Try . Jim From fernande at internet1.net Sun Sep 2 15:50:57 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Would anybody like these? Message-ID: <3B929BB1.1A58FA91@internet1.net> Free + shipping costs -Teac 1.2meg 5.25" floppy drive -DOS Customized, by David Busch.... it's a Brady book, nice shape -Simpson Microamperes round gauge, maybe 2.5", glass loose, 0 to 200 Microamps, direct current, fairly old... neat, but I don't know what to do with it :-) -Seagate ST-4053 with microchannel controller, drive needs to be low-leveled, but I don't know how. it's from an IBM Model 60 -full height bezel for Seagate ST-225, from a XT or PC -5.25" half height mounting bracket for IBM optical drive, 74F8785, from an external IBM drive case Model 3510, but I think it'll fit into a Model 77. -Power supply, it's from a piece of VME scrap I bought on Ebay, it wasn't what I thought it was, so I am recycling it. I figured someone might want the power supply. It's an ACDC Electronics unit. will do 5volts at 20 amps and +-5 volts at 2 amps. Has 3 output blocks (sets of terminals at +-5 volts) and a larger pair that must be the 12 volts. Huge heat sink. Model RT101-3 115VAC input. It's about the size of an AT power supply, but with the heatsink sticking out... no fan. Please reply privately. Thanks, Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 3 11:46:55 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Re: symphony for dot matrix printers (Bill Bradford) References: <3B92F2BD.55606109@socal.rr.com> <20010903020905.I23531@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <15251.46079.154856.223116@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 3, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > Do you mean gas discharge (like the Sumlock Compucorp on my desk with a > > > Panaplex display), or vacuum fluorescent (the green displays used on a > > > number of 1970's hand-held calculators)? > > Probably vacuum fluorescent. Gas-discharge would be more like Nixies, right? > > Speaking of, kinda related, anybody know where I can get one of the > 21" DEC orange gas plasma displays? I forget the model number right > now, but I've been looking for one of them for quite a while... It's called a VRE01. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 13:34:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Imlac progress! In-Reply-To: <3B93A90B.4D2B5E76@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 3, 1 12:00:11 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3747 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010903/0b56917c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 13:01:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010903053251.JPZI22001.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 3, 1 01:31:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1742 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010903/22c3e69e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 12:57:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <3B92F2BD.55606109@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Sep 2, 1 08:02:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1262 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010903/87b81e3c/attachment.ksh From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Sep 3 17:08:27 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Bowing out (temporarily) References: Message-ID: <007c01c134c4$f67ce860$12dab0d0@default> Good luck and see you soon we hope. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Pearson" To: Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 3:07 AM Subject: Bowing out (temporarily) > Just a quickie to say I'm bowing out for a while, I'm being laid off this > week (telecoms bubble finally burst here too)... heh heh, plenty of free > time to get the PERQ monitor fixed at last. I suppose I ought to attempt to > find another job too, every silver lining has it's cloud ;-) > > Nice to have "met" you all, hopefully I'll be back soon! > Cheers > Al. > From pricomu at compuserve.de Mon Sep 3 17:49:47 2001 From: pricomu at compuserve.de (PRICOMU) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Nixdorf PC 05 / 8150.00 Message-ID: <000201c134d5$ef2767a0$e9396781@computer> Is there anyone out there - who has a manual for that maschine or - who knows how to connect this maschine to an IBM- compatible XT or AT with the cable which was supplied with the PC 05 as there is no possibility to run other programs than those on the integrated modules (my provide HHC_BASIC vsn 1.3; CALCULATOR and CLOCK) or - who has any other information concerning the maschine? Tom From avickers at solutionengineers.com Mon Sep 3 19:12:26 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: 2114 RAM chips Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010904011226.011066e8@192.168.1.2> Does anyone have any spare 2114 (or alternative pin compatible 1KBx4) SRAM chips hanging about doing nothing useful? I have a PET 2001 with one blown chip, and neither Farnell nor RS do them any more :( Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 3 19:41:58 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: DEC Design In-Reply-To: DEC Design (Bill Pechter) References: <3B912AE7.A6F7A1E8@idirect.com> <200109012005.f81K53734696@bg-tc-ppp1630.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <15252.9046.114397.376808@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 1, Bill Pechter wrote: > Actually, DEC's tape drives were abysmal in design (not counting the > DECtapes which were really reel-to-reel disk drives. Yes, DECtapes are very cool. DLTs are pretty nice too; they FINALLY fixed the TK50 after a few iterations! ;) > The RL0x's were pretty slick and the RK05/6/7's were ok. RM80's needed > the RA81's 400+meg hda to be competitive... The RA81's would've been > nice if the breather glue problem didn't occur. RLs and RKs (especially RK06/7) are wonderful drives. I've used a lot of both and I love 'em. Anybody know if DEC ever made a Qbus RK06/7 controller? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Sep 3 20:11:48 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: 2114 RAM chips In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010904011226.011066e8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010903201148.00a78c00@ubanproductions.com> Jameco electronics still sells them. At 01:12 AM 9/4/01 +0100, you wrote: >Does anyone have any spare 2114 (or alternative pin compatible 1KBx4) SRAM >chips hanging about doing nothing useful? > >I have a PET 2001 with one blown chip, and neither Farnell nor RS do them >any more :( > >Cheers! >Ade. >-- >B-Racing: B where it's at :-) >http://www.b-racing.co.uk > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Mon Sep 3 19:17:26 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: installing VMS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010903171456.03813080@209.185.79.193> You need release media that supports your VAX. In this case either 5.5H4 or 6.x VMS. Once you have the appropriate media, then you can stick it into the CD and boot Standalone backup from the disk, then type: BACKUP/IMAGE/VERYFIY DKAxxx:VMS06x.B/SAVE DKAyyy: which will copy the first part of the install from the CD (DKAxxx:) on to the disk (DKAyyy:) When that finishes boot that disk and continue by following the prompts. --Chuck At 08:49 PM 8/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >I had originally planned to install VMS 5.5-2 from a CD I'vfe had kicking From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 3 20:54:55 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: DEC Design In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 03, 2001 08:41:58 PM Message-ID: <200109040154.f841ste25175@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Actually, DEC's tape drives were abysmal in design (not counting the > > DECtapes which were really reel-to-reel disk drives. > > Yes, DECtapes are very cool. DLTs are pretty nice too; they FINALLY > fixed the TK50 after a few iterations! ;) The TK50 was not so great; the TK70 was much more reliable. I don't have any experience with the TZ30 (although I do have one somewhere). The Tx85, Tx86, Tx87, Tx88, and Tx89 all seem to be exceptionally reliable (along with the equivalent DLTx000 drives). I used to use DAT at home. Now I use a DLT4700 system. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From XWingFhtr at aol.com Mon Sep 3 21:02:23 2001 From: XWingFhtr at aol.com (XWingFhtr@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:13 2005 Subject: Looking for VAX Computer systems Message-ID: <49.106cf06a.28c5902f@aol.com> I am looking for a VAX computer system, such as the DEC VAX 11/780. I am also looking for its hardware, Monitors, Keyboards, Printers, Disk Drives, Hard drives, Tape drives, etc. Please E-mail me at XwingFhtr@aol.com. Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010903/1c91b001/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Sep 3 21:12:30 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: FS: (not by me) brand new Olicom 10/100 MCA NICs Message-ID: A person I know, from which I've gotten 2 of these and others on the have gotten up to 2 dozen each, has 2 left. You have to contact him ASAP and he can tell you pricing and postage. His name is Chris Grenier and his email address is: wiseash2000@yahoo.com Contact him DIRECT as he does NOT do newsgroups or mailing lists -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010903/e2fa67b9/attachment.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 3 21:30:36 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <20010904023213.FUVX22677.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Tony Duell > You might well be mad as well, I can't comment (although I do believe > that many people on classiccmp are at least mildly eccentric :-)) I agree. The diversity of the posters to this list is its best quality, IMHO ;>) > I can't really recomend damaging old hardware... I have qualms about this as well. > Really mad idea.... Take a classic computer, add a 31.25kbpx current loop > serial interface, link it up to all sorts of old hardware (printers, disk > drives, tape drives, etc), and have a device that takes Midi commands and > gets that old hardware to make interesting sounds... Brilliant idea, Tony. I have a classic ISA MIDI board, drivers and software. Together they can control 64 MIDI channels. I wonder if I could control some devices directly with MIDI data? Thanks again for the great suggestions and help. Glen 0/0 From foo at siconic.com Mon Sep 3 21:45:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Nixdorf PC 05 / 8150.00 In-Reply-To: <000201c134d5$ef2767a0$e9396781@computer> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, PRICOMU wrote: > Is there anyone out there > - who has a manual for that maschine or > - who knows how to connect this maschine to an IBM- compatible XT or AT with > the cable which was supplied with the PC 05 as there is no possibility to > run other programs than those on the integrated modules (my provide > HHC_BASIC vsn 1.3; CALCULATOR and CLOCK) or > - who has any other information concerning the maschine? It sounds like this might be a re-badged Panasonic HHC? Hans Franke would probably know, but right about now he's most likely pushing a three-wheeled motorcycle up a steep mountain grade :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 3 22:39:46 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP to buy Compaq!?!?!?! Message-ID: Well, according to the New York Times (as seen on /.) it looks like HP is buying Compaq for 25 Billion dollars!?!? It looks like I've gone from being a DEC collector, to a Compaq collector, to a HP collector. Huh! Zane (who is wondering what this means for OpenVMS) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From chobbs at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 3 22:58:44 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Color Computer "Audio Spectrum Analyzer" cart References: Message-ID: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> Anyone remember this program? While cleaning up I ran across my old copy, so I hooked it up (it purportedly analyzes the sound coming in through the cassette port). It did look funny on the Coco...until I realized that the program ran in semigraphics mode, which is not supported on the Coco3! Luckily I had a Coco2 hooked up and ready to go... So far, it seems to work ok, although I've just (so far) tested it with music, rather than with sine waves at various frequencies (I can do that with one of my synths). It also has a "kaleidoscope mode" (press "k") that is really relaxing... Anyone else ever play around with this program? From chobbs at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 3 23:00:11 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: More 20 year old PC discussion References: Message-ID: <3B9451CB.42D69E3E@socal.rr.com> http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5f25706d97.htm Usually "freep" is a very political site, but this particular discussion is politics-free (so far, anyway). Beware though, one wag talks about *shooting* old TRS-80's... with a *gun*. Ouch! From foxnhare at jps.net Mon Sep 3 23:32:06 2001 From: foxnhare at jps.net (Larry Anderson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings References: <200109030540.AAA01913@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B945945.E86CB7BC@jps.net> Ok, I took some of your suggestions, added some of my ideas, etc. and instead of working on my exhibit (I have pleeennnttyyy of time!) I designed & printed buttons today. Here is a pic of 20 of the 25 or so designs: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/badges.jpg (I left the jpeg maxed at 312k, just so you can read the small print.) Many of those I have 3 or more, and a few I did one shot ones. These are all saved and they also make great stickers. (=)) comments? I have 10 still to re-do if you have any last requests. Larry -- 01000011 01001111 01001101 01001101 01001111 01000100 01001111 01010010 01000101 Larry Anderson - Sysop of Silicon Realms BBS (209) 754-1363 300-14.4k bps Classic Commodore pages at: http://www.jps.net/foxnhare/commodore.html 01000011 01001111 01001101 01010000 01010101 01010100 01000101 01010010 01010011 From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Sep 3 23:44:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP to buy Compaq!?!?!?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At least now Compaqs might actually be worth a crap, and I might automatically end up being a Compaq warranty servicer on top of my present HP ASP authorization. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy -> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 10:40 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: HP to buy Compaq!?!?!?! -> -> -> Well, according to the New York Times (as seen on /.) it looks like HP is -> buying Compaq for 25 Billion dollars!?!? It looks like I've gone from -> being a DEC collector, to a Compaq collector, to a HP collector. Huh! -> -> Zane (who is wondering what this means for OpenVMS) -> -- -> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | -> | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | -> | | Classic Computer Collector | -> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ -> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | -> | and Zane's Computer Museum. | -> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -> From ernestls at home.com Tue Sep 4 16:21:03 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Bowing out (temporarily) In-Reply-To: <007c01c134c4$f67ce860$12dab0d0@default> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John R. Keys Jr. Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 3:08 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Bowing out (temporarily) Good luck and see you soon we hope. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Pearson" To: Sent: Monday, September 03, 2001 3:07 AM Subject: Bowing out (temporarily) > Just a quickie to say I'm bowing out for a while, I'm being laid off this > week (telecoms bubble finally burst here too)... heh heh, plenty of free > time to get the PERQ monitor fixed at last. I suppose I ought to attempt to > find another job too, every silver lining has it's cloud ;-) > > Nice to have "met" you all, hopefully I'll be back soon! > Cheers > Al. I know the feeling. I was just given "notice" myself. I work untill the 14th of September, and then I join the ranks of the unemployed. Fortunately, I'm getting a nice severance package so I'll be able to enjoy a little time off to tinker with my old computers, and work on my web page, etc. Being laid off is a rotten feeling, and this is my second time in 3 years so I understand how low it can make you feel. I guess there are many of us out there in the same boat now but hang in there, and come back when you feel better. E. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 4 02:05:55 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: 2114 RAM chips In-Reply-To: Tom Uban "Re: 2114 RAM chips" (Sep 3, 20:11) References: <3.0.5.32.20010903201148.00a78c00@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <10109040805.ZM27408@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 3, 20:11, Tom Uban wrote: > Jameco electronics still sells them. > > At 01:12 AM 9/4/01 +0100, Adrian wrote: > >Does anyone have any spare 2114 (or alternative pin compatible 1KBx4) SRAM > >chips hanging about doing nothing useful? > > > >I have a PET 2001 with one blown chip, and neither Farnell nor RS do them > >any more :( Ade, I have a few. Email me your address off-list, and I'll post you one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Tue Sep 4 04:09:04 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP 800/F20 Message-ID: <049701c13521$3fa6bf50$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Hello, I have an HP 9000/800 F20 machine that I don't have a video card for, so I cannot just plug a monitor to it. I also don't have a keyboard. The machine powers on and has HP-UX on it. I bought a cable that is supposed to connect my PC to the serial console connector on the F20. When I connect I can see HP-UX booting, but nothing I type seems to be getting through to the F20. I wonder if it is due to some password protection, or is it due to wrong terminal settings? I'd be grateful for any hints. Jacek Artymiak -- OnetKomunikator - porozumiesz sie z innymi [ http://ok.onet.pl/instaluj.html ] From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 4 04:45:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Color Computer "Audio Spectrum Analyzer" cart In-Reply-To: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: >Anyone remember this program? While cleaning up I ran across my old >copy, so I hooked it up >(it purportedly analyzes the sound coming in through the cassette port). > >Anyone else ever play around with this program? I have it and it's manual as well. I've not used it in quite a long time though but do remember that I thought it was interesting. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 4 05:34:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP and Compaq? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 06:30:19 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Sep 04, 2001 06:34:40 AM Message-ID: <200109041130.f84BUJI26171@narnia.int.dittman.net> > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > and Compaq? It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Tue Sep 4 07:48:39 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109041130.f84BUJI26171@narnia.int.dittman.net> from Eric Dittman at "Sep 4, 1 06:30:19 am" Message-ID: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > and Compaq? > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From pechter at bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com Tue Sep 4 08:04:06 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> from Cameron Kaiser at "Sep 4, 2001 05:48:39 am" Message-ID: <200109041304.f84D46C10439@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com> > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > > and Compaq? > > > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. > > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) The plan was IA-64 which is why HP helped develop the chip. PA-RISC is dead... or would've been had they not have had to resurrect it because of delays on IA-64. Capellas is just another GQ Bob Palmer. Let's see if Carly Fiorina will do better than her partner in crime Rich McGinn at Lucent over time. Bill -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Sep 4 08:16:23 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: HP will have two unfashionable midrange OS's. I wonder if OpenVMS will suffer 'from not invented here' syndrome, even though I think it is more modernized and versatile than MPE/IX. On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > > -- From awc at dryden.lakeheadu.ca Tue Sep 4 09:38:05 2001 From: awc at dryden.lakeheadu.ca (awc) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Zenith References: Message-ID: <3B94E74D.D5341D03@dryden.lakeheadu.ca> Hi Tony, The way it is set up is Zenith-89 act as a terminal, then the serial line connected to a board with all those chips. floppy disk is connected to same board too. That board has six serial lines, one to terminal, other to a scanning head, another to a press, another to control vacuum etc. This beast controls four color Heiderburg Press. This controller board has D70116D NEC chip too. (I guess 8086 plus some NEC stuff). Each color has a roller and ink bucket with 31 smaller buckets. With H-89 controller each bucket can move up or down. So on the paper you will get darker or liter color. With each graphic we get some kind of color bar on the side, what we do is scan the color bar with special head and that can adjust the all four rollers (i.e. 124 ink buckets). This runs with hdos system. On the start up I get Winchester controller present... msg. -------------- --------------- --------------- -------------- -------------- ------------ | H-89?19 | | controller | | Floppy | | Vacuum | | scan head | | Press | -------------- ---------------- --------------- -------------- -------------- ------------ |____________| | | |____________| | | | |_________________________| | |________________________________________ | I do not have clue about hdos. I know 8085/68000 assembler well. If can read(get source) the program on the disk, I can plug Linux machine. Thanks anil Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Hi All, > > > > I have a Zenith H-89 based computer control system which needs few ICs. > > Any body know place to buy these? > > > > D765AC > > Aka 8272. This is a very common floppy controller chip used on a lot of > older PC floppy controller cards. It is _not_ hard to find. > > > C8208 - CPU? > > DRAM controller? > > > C8087-1 > > FPU for the 8086/8088 family. > > > WD2123-PL - I guess western digital disk controller. > > I thought it was a support device. A clock generator or data separator, > possibly. > > Only one thing worries me. I don't think any of the above are used in the > H89/Z90, the schematics for which are along side me. Are you sure it's > not some other Zenith machine? > > -tony From allain at panix.com Tue Sep 4 09:50:37 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109041304.f84D46C10439@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <006b01c13550$f6196600$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >>> So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP >>> and Compaq? Wishing you well, any Compaq / HP employees out there. John A. From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 10:11:02 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: DEC Design In-Reply-To: <15252.9046.114397.376808@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010904151102.48590.qmail@web20107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > RLs and RKs (especially RK06/7) are wonderful drives. I've used a > lot of both and I love 'em. My oldest 11/750 shipped with a pair of RK07s - back in the day, you could put an OS on one, user data on the other. > Anybody know if DEC ever made a Qbus RK06/7 controller? Not that I ever heard of, but for 18-bit Qbus machines, you could probably get away with a Qniverter. Dunno about 22-bit systems. Probably have to roll your own driver, or at least ensure that the disk buffers were in the low 256K. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 4 10:21:41 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Paul Thompson wrote: >On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although >> the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) As someone stated, it's dead. It's just taken longer than expected to die. >HP will have two unfashionable midrange OS's. I wonder if OpenVMS will >suffer 'from not invented here' syndrome, even though I think it is more >modernized and versatile than MPE/IX. OpenVMS is what's got me scared! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 10:32:20 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: DEC Design In-Reply-To: <3B92C88B.87DA6F79@idirect.com> Message-ID: <20010904153220.16261.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jerome Fine wrote: > Do you mean the TU-58? I am looking for one!! The TU-58 is also known as "DECtape-II". The original poster was referring to TU-55/TU-56 DECtape. Like the TU-58, they are a block- addressable magtape, but they are open reel, not cassette. > I have one that does not work and I want to replace the bad part. Electrical or mechanical? > The rollers are OK. That'll change. I've had to replace every roller I have. 30cm of that tygon tubing Allison recommended is pretty cheap. > This is the external TU-58 with two drives in a black box. Does anyone > have one? Not me. I've never had the proper table-top unit. I have a TU-58 in each 11/750, a dual unit in the 11/730, a VT-103, and I have a homemade "table- top" unit that was from an 11/725 that my employer stripped for parts back when it was cheaper to buy an 11/725 to keep our 11/730 running that it was to pay DEC maintenance; that plus a couple of drive mechanisms in a pair of old HP serial line analyzers. (The 11/725 was completely stripped about 10 years ago, and the innards replaced with a 68000 analyzer from Northwest Instruments for portability around the shop). I've been using the homeless unit to read in ancient DEC software distributions. It's in a long steel box (from the VAX); I made a power cable for so I can run it off the PeeCee power supply. Just this weekend, I found another cache of tapes - 11/750 diags and more VMS 3.x upgrade distros. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Sep 4 10:45:46 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256E4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> After swallowing DEC, I'm glad to see COMPAQ get swallowed. But my opinion of Hewlett-Backward isn't what it used to be, and I don't think we'll be buying anymore DeskJam printers or DesignJam plotters, as they are no longer honoring the terms of the service contracts they sold us. Any escalating replies should be mailed to me privately... Regards, -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:35 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: HP & Compaq > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > and Compaq? > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Tue Sep 4 11:07:34 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: Speaking of MPE, I've always wanted to play around with MPE (I used HP2000's in the past, and do sysadmin for various hp9000's, but never got to play with a 3000). Any tips/pointers on how to get access to MPE without spending much money (or having much space)? thanks. -Bob >Paul Thompson wrote: > >On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >> It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > >> the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > >As someone stated, it's dead. It's just taken longer than expected to die. > > >HP will have two unfashionable midrange OS's. I wonder if OpenVMS will > >suffer 'from not invented here' syndrome, even though I think it is more > >modernized and versatile than MPE/IX. > >OpenVMS is what's got me scared! > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 4 11:22:30 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146701D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This reminds me of Stomp and The Blue Man Group (http://www.blueman.com/)... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de [mailto:jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de] ! Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2001 4:23 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: symphony for dot matrix printers ! ! ! On 1 Sep, Glen Goodwin wrote: ! ! > Some useable sounds might be: ! > ! > (printers, of course) ! Don't forget pen plotters hamering the pen down on to the ! paper, sirring ! steppers, ... ! ! > hard drive spinup & chatter ! load and unload of removable media (MOD, ...) ! ! > crt charge & discharge ! > floppy drive stepper motors ! > ps fans ! > cpu cooling fans ! and the pumps of the water cooling... ! ! > tape drives ! Uhhh. I have to record the sound of my 9 track pneumatic autoloader ! (cipher F880): ! klick, KLACK, (tape gets locked...) ! bss, bssss, (and rewound) ! fffffFFFFFFF.... (fan spins up), ! bss-shldl-shldl-shldl-shldl, (tape gets roled off and blown throgh the ! drive mechanics) ! klick-klack, klick-klack, klick-klack (tape gets caught at the other ! spindle) ! bsss, BSSS, BSSSSSSSSBSSSBSSS, (tape gets positioned at BOT) ! ! > ASR 33s ! > PAC readers ! > card readers ! modems and acoustic couplers ! beepers (in terminals) ! typing on a keyboard (with micro switchs) ! power and other switches ! start up sounds (Apple, SGI) ! opening and closing enclosures ! roling enclosures (with wheels) around ! -- ! ! ! ! tschuess, ! Jochen ! ! Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz ! From chomko at greenbelt.com Tue Sep 4 11:26:17 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B9500A9.4B2A658D@greenbelt.com> Wow, that is big news! I think that it means things marked "digital' or 'DEC' just went up in value, now being twice removed. Eric Jeff Hellige wrote: > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > and Compaq? > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 4 12:15:39 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9500A9.4B2A658D@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3B950C3B.694B52CA@internet1.net> Hopefully HP won't say, "Digital? whats that? Oh, that must be legacy stuff.... we don't handle that anymore" I hope they make alot of stuff availble online, plus keep VMS going. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Eric Chomko wrote: > > Wow, that is big news! I think that it means things marked "digital' or > 'DEC' just went up in value, > now being twice removed. > > Eric > > Jeff Hellige wrote: > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > and Compaq? > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 12:16:31 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: <3B94A9FF.18278.188C0E@localhost> Re: > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like > to wear? GOD is real, unless declared INTEGER Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 12:18:54 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3B94AA8E.25742.1AB836@localhost> Re: > suffer 'from not invented here' syndrome, even though I think it is more > modernized and versatile than MPE/IX. Shame on you for trolling so obviously! :) Looks like you need to learn more about MPE/iX ... which I'll put up against any other modern OS. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 12:21:26 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: I've got the PA-RISC Blues . . . In-Reply-To: <8b.bea99d5.28c4e5ed@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B94AB26.14691.1D0975@localhost> Re: > Try Mike Nicewongers site twmaster.com Try: www.twmaster.com ... that works :) nslookup twmaster.com Non-authoritative answer: Name: twmaster.com Address: 204.91.10.26 nslookup www.twmaster.com Non-authoritative answer: Address: 198.179.16.197 Aliases: www.twmaster.com Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 12:25:06 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: Re: HP & Compaq (Chad Fernandez) References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9500A9.4B2A658D@greenbelt.com> <3B950C3B.694B52CA@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15253.3698.95730.127964@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 4, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Hopefully HP won't say, "Digital? whats that? Oh, that must be legacy > stuff.... we don't handle that anymore" I hope they make alot of stuff > availble online, plus keep VMS going. HP knows quite well that "all the world's not a PeeCee", and they understand...unlike many people...that PeeCees aren't the best tool for every job. Last I heard, they were *still* making and selling HP3000 systems. This gives me some hope. I guess we'll all just have to wait and see what happens. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 4 12:40:30 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3B950C3B.694B52CA@internet1.net> References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9500A9.4B2A658D@greenbelt.com> <3B950C3B.694B52CA@internet1.net> Message-ID: <01Sep4.134744edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Hopefully HP won't say, "Digital? whats that? Oh, that must be legacy >stuff.... we don't handle that anymore" I hope they make alot of stuff >availble online, plus keep VMS going. That was pretty much my thought as well. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Sep 4 11:55:02 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109041304.f84D46C10439@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com> References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010904125502.01ced348@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:04 AM 9/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >> It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although >> the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > >The plan was IA-64 which is why HP helped develop the chip. >PA-RISC is dead... or would've been had they not have had to resurrect >it because of delays on IA-64. >Bill Lots of the key architectural features in IA64 (if not most) are actually HP's intellectual property. IA64 is, in a sense, what HP was already developing as the sucessor of PA-RISC many years ago, with important, patented new features (such as multi-instruction set architecture and the related instruction set-switching mechanism, which is the main thing that Intel was after) coupled with Intel's advanced production processes. Oh, and some extras to accomodate Intel's demands (the main reason for the delays). HP needed better production technology than what they had in order for their new chip design to stick. The choices were DEC, Intel and IBM. Guess what happened. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 4 13:02:59 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3B94AA8E.25742.1AB836@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > Looks like you need to learn more about MPE/iX ... which I'll put > up against any other modern OS. *Any* other modern OS? How about z/OS? Peace... Sridhar From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 4 13:16:39 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B945945.E86CB7BC@jps.net> References: <200109030540.AAA01913@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010904141639.008c9a88@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Larry Anderson may have mentioned these words: > >Ok, I took some of your suggestions, added some of my ideas, etc. and >instead of working on my exhibit (I have pleeennnttyyy of time!) I >designed & printed buttons today. [snip] >comments? I have 10 still to re-do if you have any last requests. I've been away from the computer for the last few days (building chicken coops... :-( ) but my favorite's always been: "Computer Programmers do it from the top down." [ This seems to be on topic, as all this "visual basic" crap (yes, I use it, yes, I hate it...) is all event based - not top-down programming anymore... :-( ] Just to throw my hat into the foray... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 4 13:24:31 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HeathKit H-89 boot disks ? (fwd) Message-ID: Hopefully, there is one amongst you that can give this chap a leg up on getting his H-89 going with a boot disk. Regrettably, I am unable to help him. Please contact him directly. - don ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 03:31:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Nick Sledz To: donm@crash.cts.com Cc: nsledz@yahoo.com Subject: HeathKit H-89 boot disks ? Dear Mr. Maslin, I am don't know if you deal with the Dina-SIG archive anymore, but perhaps you could forward it to someone who does.... I am attempting to locate a copy of the cp/m boot disks for a HeathKit H-89 (circa 1981) which I recently acquired. It uses hard sector 5 1/4 floppies which is a real pain. I remember seeing a newsgroup post that said you folks had some H-89 stuff in your archive. I may need to write a program to do a serial transfer files onto the H-89 machine. Do you have any programming languages available as well? If you have this available, please let me know the cost, and I'll send a donation. -Thanks for your help! Nick **************************** Nicholas Sledziona 304 Winston Drive Ithaca, NY 14850 Phone: 607-266-0374 email: nsledz@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 4 13:44:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010904125502.01ced348@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > HP needed better production technology than what they had in > order for their new chip design to stick. The choices were DEC, > Intel and IBM. Guess what happened. IBM is doing the multi-layer ceramic interconnect packaging for the Itanium. Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 4 14:10:16 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010904141639.008c9a88@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I've been away from the computer for the last few days (building chicken > coops... :-( ) but my favorite's always been: > > "Computer Programmers do it from the top down." How about, "AI hackers do it with robots." or, "Hackers do it with fewer bugs." Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 14:11:26 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) Message-ID: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North American three prong power cord but with a notch where it plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Sep 4 14:14:55 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3B94AA8E.25742.1AB836@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > suffer 'from not invented here' syndrome, even though I think it is more > > modernized and versatile than MPE/IX. > > Shame on you for trolling so obviously! :) > > Looks like you need to learn more about MPE/iX ... which I'll put > up against any other modern OS. > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > That occurred to me after I sent it, and I realized that I was something of an ASSSSSS :-) Well, these are OS's of classic hardware. And I still want a 3000 for the collection. Below are my justifications for my statement, admittedly biased as a system manager with considerably more VMS experience than MPE: - 4GB limit on MPEXL_SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET even if you have a larger drive - no software mirroring of this 4GB. Neither of these limitations exist on versions of VMS released in approximately the last decade, although there are specific size limitations tied to certain models of older hardware that have been discussed here. Admittedly hardware RAID is a better solution but not always an option in real life - you've just made your disaster recovery and upgrade processes more difficult if you make the MPEXL_SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET multiple disks to get around the 4GB limit and any important files creep on the other disks. - 8 character names of MPE namespace files and queues is VERY hokey. I attended an MPE class at HP in Boston presented by one of the regulars on comp.sys.hp.mpe and he carried on about the cryptic nature of Unix commands but he lost all his moral authority on that topic as far as I was concerned with this limitation in place. Cryptic commands vs. cryptic filenames and queues, a pain either way. None need be cryptic in VMS. - HFS/POSIX namespace files don't map cleanly to 8 character MPE namespace files with symbolic links. A personal gripe; my specific problem was I wanted a legible HFS/POSIX filename for a file to be accessed by a 8 char MPE namespace compatible COBOL program. I created a symbolic link which caused a MPE filename supposedly to map to the HFS filename. I was unable to get the old COBOL app recognize it although other things could, and using a file equation was not an option I wanted to pursue. - The EDITOR edlin wannabe editor seems limited compared to vi and makes TPU/EVE in VMS seem like star office in comparison. It was funny listening to the intructor carry on about vi and then use EDITOR. Another personal preference quibble, I suppose. - You cannot edit many system files using vi without corrupting them and needing to FCOPY them back into a usable format. This is supposedly fixed in the current MPE release, which I don't have. FCOPY is analagous to CONVERT file /FDL in VMS. - The onerous patching and upgrade process, and the difficulty of determining your actual patchlevel from the OS maintained files. VAX versions of VMS are not any better as far as determining your patch level. But the patches/upgrades are decidedly less onerous. - Patches are not generally available for download and can not (until the recently released current version??) be installed from CDROM. - Although the program "mail" is shipped in the POSIX environment, there is no MTA to actually send any mail off the system without installing sendmail. Sendmail itself IMHO is one of the cryptic low points of Unix software and hardly an asset to MPE. - The facility to automatically reboot without operator intervention at the system console is a separately sold option. (see Autorestart/IX) - I can change between OpenVMS/Tru64/Linux/Windoze at will with firmware settings on my Alphas. I need HP field engineer & his magic number generator to do the same between HPUX and MPE. - User licensing & hardware very strictly tied. - Some machines have deliberately software reduced CPU speeds while the corresponding 9000's models do not apparently to force MPE users to more expensive machines. I believe the only hobbling of CPU's done with Alpha was between machines intended to run only NT vs. those intended for all platforms and then it was a functionality rather than speed modification. What I do like about MPE/IX - It seems generally as stable as my VMS systems - this is a big plus. - The POSIX environment is handy (tho slow) and does add more options for modern software - From my limited experience the TurboImage database seems competent and versatile. From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Sep 4 14:20:07 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> Hello, all: I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the ZX81 I got in a trade. Thoughts? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From MMuller at chrm.com Tue Sep 4 14:29:30 2001 From: MMuller at chrm.com (Malinda Muller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Retired Arete / Arix Manuals Message-ID: Looking to purchase retired software and / or installation guides or manuals for both the Unix based software and hardware made by Arete [Arix] in the mid-80's. Please contact Malinda Muller @ 213.689.6418 with information or offers. Los Angeles Librarian Crosby Heafey Roach & May 700 S. Flower St. Ste. 2200 Los Angeles, Ca. 90017 213.689.6418 fax: 213.896.8080 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 4 14:44:31 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on >the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North >American three prong power cord but with a notch where it >plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on >the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? Mine came off of a modern HP-UX Workstation..... In light of the news the last couple days, that's rather ironic. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 4 04:41:38 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Color Computer "Audio Spectrum Analyzer" cart In-Reply-To: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> References: Message-ID: One of the things I still am hunting for is the Eventide audio spectrum analyzer for the Apple II. It was a fairly serious measurement tool, with a bunch of smarts on the card and just using the Apple II for a display device. Don't know what it is, but something about spectrum analyzers is fascinating. And yes I also hanker for a Sequerra tuner. From kapteynr at cboe.com Tue Sep 4 15:12:10 2001 From: kapteynr at cboe.com (Rob Kapteyn) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <6D5A04499826D311811100902760DDCF07F9DEF9@msx1.cboe.com> Without question, I would keep it as an unbuilt kit. For one, it is much more of a rarity that way. Second, the unassembled parts can more easily be copied for new "reproduction" kits. I believe that someone is now selling IMSAI reproduction kits. Just my opinion, Rob BTW: I retrieved much of my Altair stuff from my parents attic yesterday. I did not see the VDM-1 manual, but I will look again. -----Original Message----- From: Cini, Richard [SMTP:RCini@congressfinancial.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:20 PM To: 'ClassCompList' Subject: Keep or assemble??? Hello, all: I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the ZX81 I got in a trade. Thoughts? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 4 15:23:31 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467026@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> You're referring to the thought of 'mint condition' type collectible value, aren't you? Like an original Star Wars action figure being worth more when it's in the original retail packaging? If so, that would depend on the condition of the packaging. How much of it you have, how un-damaged it is, etc. Keep in mind though, value is in the eye of the beholder. It sounds like you would get more enjoyment out of building & using it, rather that letting it sit and collect dust. If you're toying with building it, I would say go for it, but keep all the packing and paperwork, too. That helps increase the 'value'. I think it all depends on whether you plan on selling it, or keeping it. I would definitely build & use it. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Cini, Richard [mailto:RCini@congressfinancial.com] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:20 PM ! To: 'ClassCompList' ! Subject: Keep or assemble??? ! ! ! Hello, all: ! ! I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of ! keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? ! ! I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying ! with assembling. ! I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my ! KIM-1 and the ! ZX81 I got in a trade. ! ! Thoughts? ! ! Rich ! ! ========================== ! Richard A. Cini, Jr. ! Congress Financial Corporation ! 1133 Avenue of the Americas ! 30th Floor ! New York, NY 10036 ! (212) 545-4402 ! (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) ! From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 15:25:04 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 04, 2001 12:44:31 PM Message-ID: <200109042025.f84KP4a27274@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > >the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > >American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > >plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > >the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? > > Mine came off of a modern HP-UX Workstation..... In light of the news the > last couple days, that's rather ironic. So if the power cable has the HP logo then you are way ahead of the rest of us... Of course, all my stuff still says "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|", except for the distribution CDROMs. My SYS$WELCOME says: Compaq may have bought Digital, but I'll always call it DEC. I'll have to update that now. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Sep 4 15:35:21 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:14 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010904213521.011066e8@192.168.1.2> At 03:20 pm 04/09/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Hello, all: > > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of >keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. >I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the >ZX81 I got in a trade. > > Thoughts? > Up to you entirely. eBay suggests that unbuilt ZX81s are worth silly money (think ?300 ($450) upwards). Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 15:52:00 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at Sep 04, 2001 02:14:55 PM Message-ID: <200109042052.NAA12479@opus.allegro.com> Re: > - 4GB limit on MPEXL_SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET even if you have a larger drive Yeah..pretty dumb. They've announced they're working on fixing this. IIRC, the problem is in the firmware, which assumes a 4 GB limit for the address of the boot software. I'd have assumed that would mean "hey, just put the boot image in the first 4 GB somewhere", but...:) > - no software mirroring of this 4GB. Yep. Of course, software mirroring sucks anyway :) > - you've just made your disaster recovery and upgrade processes more > difficult if you make the MPEXL_SYSTEM_VOLUME_SET multiple disks to get > around the 4GB limit and any important files creep on the other disks. true. > - 8 character names of MPE namespace files and queues is VERY hokey. So, use HFS files! (POSIX hierarchical directory structure and file names) > - HFS/POSIX namespace files don't map cleanly to 8 character MPE > namespace files with symbolic links. Huh? I use this all the time. cd /etc/foo ln -s myposix_named_file /SYS/PUB/MINE or :newlink mine.pub.sys, /etc/foo/myposix_named_file, mine.pub.sys > - The EDITOR edlin wannabe editor seems limited compared to vi and QEDIT...it's been the editor of choice on the HP 3000 for 20+ years. (Also runs on HP-UX) (There's QEDIT for Windows, which works with the HP 3000 / HP 9000, but I haven't warmed up to it yet.) (The reason I like QEDIT is that I can mix line-mode style editing with visual editing, something few other editors can do well.) > - You cannot edit many system files using vi without corrupting them and > needing to FCOPY them back into a usable format. That's like saying "if you use a stupid utility to edit something that has a particular format (unknown to the utility), you'll have problems". vi is stupid...it doesn't understand record structures. It's an editor of bytestream ASCII files ... a barely adequate one at that. Rule 1: get QEDIT, and use it for MPE files. Rule 2: get QEDIT, and use it for HFS files. Rule 3: see rules 1 and 2 :) > This is supposedly fixed in the current MPE release, which I don't have. > FCOPY is analagous to CONVERT file /FDL in VMS. Don't know FDL. FCOPY is similar to an enhanced "dd" in Unix, it's a record-oriented file data manipulator. COPY is similar to "cp" in Unix, it's a file oriented copier. > - The onerous patching and upgrade process, and the difficulty of > determining your actual patchlevel from the OS maintained files. Not an OS feature, but a *product* feature. Yes, MPE's patching process could be better. OTOH, there are some positive aspects... It's trivially easy for the system manager to apply a one-word patch to running code on MPE/iX, should that be necessary. (Even if the code is in a critical part of the kernel.) (No, it doesn't happen often.) > - Patches are not generally available for download and can not (until the > recently released current version??) be installed from CDROM. Not really...itrc.hp.com has them. You can grab "patchman" from HP's web site (it ought to be distributed with the OS!), and it will tell you what patches exist, and which you should install, and will download them and do some (all?) of the installtion for you. True, we've only had patchman for the last 2 years or so. > - Although the program "mail" is shipped in the POSIX environment, there > is no MTA to actually send any mail off the system without installing > sendmail. Mail isn't part of the Unix *operating system*, although it's usually bundled with various Unix *products*. There are several Unix-style mailers available for MPE. I frequently use MAIL from Telamon (ftp.telamon.com), because it works well. > Sendmail itself IMHO is one of the cryptic low points of Unix software and > hardly an asset to MPE. true...but we have sendmail, too. > - The facility to automatically reboot without operator intervention at > the system console is a separately sold option. (see Autorestart/IX) So? BTW, if you want to trigger a reboot remotely, that ability has been available for about 15 years ... not well known, perhaps. > - I can change between OpenVMS/Tru64/Linux/Windoze at will with firmware > settings on my Alphas. I need HP field engineer & his magic number > generator to do the same between HPUX and MPE. And you want to .... why? :) Presumably, you're running licensed copies of the VMA and Windows software. HP has chosen not to allow a user to license both HP-UX and MPE for the same box. If you installed the PA-RISC version of Linux on an HP 3000 (presuming it's one of the PA-RISC hardware versions that Linux supports), you could do the same thing: bootup either OS. Now, Linux won't know about the MPE file system, and vice versa ... but there's nothing stopping anyone from writing an inferior MPE-look-alike file system for Linux (or, nothing stopping them from doing a hell of a lot of work and writing a work-alike/look-alike good MPE file system ... if they implement the Transaction Manager :). BTW, can you say "fsck". An MPE user doesn't know that that word is... a typoed version of f*ck ... which is what's said when a Unix user has to run it. I have never seen, nor heard of, file system damage caused by a reboot on MPE...not now, nor with the Classic MPE V. (Yes, some other things can sometimes damage the file system (e.g., disk drive problems), but that's pretty rare.) (My partner has spent all day trying to resurrect a client's HP-UX system that had 3 disk drives fail this weekend... after the drives were replaced, HP-UX notes that 3 volumes are missing from some volume groups, and 3 unknown problems are present ... 8 hours of fighting HP-UX and SAM later, well...they're still fighting, so there's no resolution yet.) > - User licensing & hardware very strictly tied. So? That's not an *operating system* issue, that's a *product* issue! > - Some machines have deliberately software reduced CPU speeds while the > corresponding 9000's models do not apparently to force MPE users to more > expensive machines. Yep. I think that's wrong, definitely not the HP Way. But, HP's 3000 group has an incredibly good relationship with the users...we talk with them daily, meet with them periodically .. a relationship that's the envy of the industry. Heck, I want that kind of relationship with the *HP-UX* people! > - It seems generally as stable as my VMS systems - this is a big plus. > - The POSIX environment is handy (tho slow) and does add more options for > modern software > - From my limited experience the TurboImage database seems competent and > versatile. MPE's good points: 1) it lets you get things done. This cannot be overstated... If you can think of something new to do with a computer, there will be a way to do it on MPE. Let's say I want to write a product that would let me mount a disk on a Sun system as if it were a local disk on a 3000 ... not a *file system* (e.g., NFS), but a *disk*. I could do that easily with MPE, even to the extent of handling page faults across the network. I couldn't even *begin* to do this with HP-UX. (Yes, I can (and have) written kernel-level / driver-level code for HP-UX.) Part of the reason this is possible is that I can write "user" code that runs at ring level 0 ... something not possible on HP-UX. Another part is that (with appropriate security) I have the ability to see/modify kernel code and data ... from a user process (i.e., from outside the kernel). 2) it's stable. I have some code that's run unchanged, un-recompiled, since 1979. 2.5) reliable. The Transaction Manager means that file system data structures, and IMAGE data structures are protected from corruption caused by system failures. If you want to have the same level of protection for user data in a file, you can...trivially. 3) it's scalable. Few, if any, OS's have demonstrated scalability from a single user up to thousands of users. 4) it's easier to manage. This is *NOT* open to debate. For 20+ years, I've seen site after site after site ... without a single exception ... spend far more money and far more time maintaining every other operating system than they spend for maintain their MPE systems. Yes, it's harder to find an MPE-trained person than a Unix or Linux or NT person ... but you only have to find one instead of two or three or a dozen. Plus, in their spare time they'll probably be the DBA for an IMAGE database, it's that easy. 5) addressing ... 64 bit since 1986. Even *today*, HP-UX is basically a 32-bit operating system. ...with stacks limited to tens of megabytes (roughly), and no ability to access much data beyond that. Since MPE XL 1.0, MPE users have had the ability to have global/stack data of to 1 GB, and up to a thousand blocks of up to 4 GB of data directly addressable by their code. 64 bit? Been there, done that! As of release MPE/iX 6.5, we can have disk files much bigger than 4 GB... but with the same file system interface as before! (No, *we* don't have to set special flags saying "large files" when we compile our code, unlike Unix :) 6) mapped files ... done right! Essentially every disk file is accessible either via file system intrinsics and/or mapped file access. Note that "and/or"...a *BIG* departure from HP-UX. (HP-UX file system buffers and their mapped file access do not share data, so if a user updates a file via "write()", there's a good chance that mapped file accessors won't see that data ... basically not a problem on MPE). (MPE's file system uses mapped access internally, so *all* file accesses eventually go through the same mapped access.) 7) kernel APIs are extremely powerful. Want to see if a virtual address is in memory? freeze it? post it if dirty? forget it? Trivial. (True, not well documented) 8) debugging the kernel is easy, and available to any system manager that wants to learn how to do it. HP-UX just this year announced some form of kernel debugging .. it requires 11i, and it requires a second 9000 to run the user interface on. (And I don't know if it's as powerful.) 9) IMAGE is bundled in, and is powerful and easy to use. We had one client, a commercial bank in London, switching from MPE & IMAGE to HP-UX & Oracle. We warned them that they would need three times the CPU and three times the disk space to get comparable performance. After they switched over, they called us to tell us we we wrong... they needed *five* times the CPU and *five* times the disk space. Relational databases are good for some things ... MPE had one years ago (ALLBASE). But, they aren't good for what people do most: day to day business. For that, hierarchical / network databases tend to outperform relational databases. IMAGE allows datasets ("tables") up to 80+ GB. Unlike most other databases, the users have a *say* in IMAGE. We've had a large number of user-request enhancements implemented in the last 10 years. 10) easy to reverse-engineer. Got a problem you need solved, and you think some part of the OS knows how to solve it (or something similar)? It's very easy to look and see how things get done. 11) POSIX Rated as "most open" system by Gartner group. 12) superior IPC Multiple message passing mechanisms to choose from (although we still lack some of the finer control features provided by Burroughs MCP (e.g., queue.memorylimit := xxx) If you throw away most of the features of message files, you get pipes. At a lower level, ports (dumb name) provide a fascinating and powerful message passing facility. (Some similarties can be found in the Amiga OS) MPE's bad points: 1) overhead. Because we have more protection, because we have a hell of a lot more functionality, some operations take more time: file opening file closing process creation process termination 2) marketing (including: A-Class clock slowdown, and 9000/3000 licensing issues) 3) marketing (yeah, thought I'd mention it again) 4) raw sockets ... or lack thereof 5) low-level terminal control/interaction What we have works better than HP-UX's, but we don't have as much, and some HP-UX (and other Unix) software is hard to port because of this. MPE was never designed to be an operating system that gets interrupted for every damn keystroke entered by the user ... unlike UNIX which started life as a single user operating system. The result is that we have never handled terminal I/O as directly (low-level) as Unix... OTOH, that history shows why record-oriented (a line of characters + ) I/O and block mode (an entire screen) are so efficient on MPE, compared to HP-UX. 6) POSIX porting ... some rough spots -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 16:08:14 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <15253.3698.95730.127964@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3B94E04E.4972.ECB65A@localhost> re: > > Hopefully HP won't say, "Digital? whats that? Oh, that must be legacy > > stuff.... we don't handle that anymore" I hope they make alot of stuff > > availble online, plus keep VMS going. ... > Last I heard, they were *still* making and selling > HP3000 systems. Yes...on essentially the same hardware platforms that HP-UX is on. (I.e., just as modern). Further, they announced (a year or more ago?) that MPE/iX would be on IA-64 ... just like HP-UX. OTOH, yes, you *will* get "what's that" ... about Digital, VAX, VMS, *or* MPE, 3000 :( Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From msell at ontimesupport.com Tue Sep 4 16:15:08 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <200109042025.f84KP4a27274@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010904161441.02dbc410@127.0.0.1> HP may have bought Compaq may have bought Digital..... : ) - Matt At 03:25 PM 9/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >Compaq may have bought Digital, but I'll > always call it DEC. Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 4 16:22:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: old NVRAMs - Sun MAC addresses... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467028@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> der Mouse --- I'm passing this message onto the ClassicCmp.org mailing list also, since there has been some mention of SS1 MAC addresses here too. Maybe we (the ClassicCmp list) can provide you with more data, hopefully enough to crack the code finally! BTW, I also have a SparcStation 1 mainboard too, I'll just have to stick that in one of the cases to power it up. Hopefully it still has it's MAC address! der Mouse's original NetBSD/Sparc post about this is at the end... Don't forget to include him in the replies... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: der Mouse [mailto:mouse@Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA] ! ! > I'll be inspecting mine tomorrow, to add info to your sample base... ! > Anithing else I should look for and report, besides the barcode ! > numbers and descriptions? ! ! The four pieces of info I'm interested in are ! ! 1) four-character code ! 2) barcode ! 3) MAC address ! 4) hostid ! ! Each subset of more than one of those is of interest; the ! more complete ! a subset, the more interesting. Obviously, I'm particularly ! interested ! in filling in the gaps in the barcode table and in anything that can ! shed light on the contents-versus-label mapping, but anything is ! useful; even just a 4-char-code <-> barcode sample can serve as ! confirmation of what I've got. ! -----Original Message----- ! From: der Mouse [mailto:mouse@Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA] ! I've got eight old 48T02 NVRAM chips whose batteries ahve run down. I'd like to reconstruct the MAC address and hostid values corresponding to them; all but one of them still has its barcode sticker (and I don't expect to get anything useful for the one that's lost its sticker :-). Mark Henderson's NVRAM FAQ says that Sun can reconstruct this given the barcode (or, possibly, the four-character code also prinetd on the sticker), but does not say how. Is that algorithm known, or partially known? If not, I'll volunteer to collect data points to try to work it out, if people with still-good NVRAMs will send their barcode and/or four-character codes to me with the Ethernet address and hostid that correspond. (I've got only three live samples in my own collection, not really enough to tell much from.) I'll also be looking at mine to see if there is an obvious correspondence between barcodes and four-character codes. The newer sort, the 48T08 sort, don't need this, since the last three octets of the MAC address are identical to the low three bytes of the hostid, and are printed under the barcode. It's just the old sort I'm interested in here. Any information appreciated. From CHoaglin at aol.com Tue Sep 4 16:19:20 2001 From: CHoaglin at aol.com (CHoaglin@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP 85 schematic? Message-ID: <22.1b4ca889.28c69f58@aol.com> Hi folks, I have an HP 85, that I believe needs a replacement CPU chip. There was a power supply fault caused by a misaligned flexible cable, which I managed to repair. But, now the machine won't boot, and the CPU chip gets very hot with 2 or 3 seconds of turning it on. I think there may be an internal short, but I really need the schematic to know which leads to take resistance measurements at to verify this. Does anybody have a copy? Also, are there any people still carrying parts for this machine? I'd prefer to buy a replacement CPU if possible rather than cannibalizing another machine. -Chris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010904/50e9b948/attachment.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 4 16:04:02 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <20010824223703.551.qmail@mail.seefried.com> References: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >Jumping in late, I know, but when I was at Georgia Tech (mid- to late-80s), >we were taught x86 assembly. There was a real focus on the concept that One of the most educational classes I took was writing assembly language modules that were called from Fortran on a IBM 360. Did a wonderfull job of beating a number of important concepts into my head, because either you understood or it didn't work. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 16:39:16 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) (Eric Dittman) References: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15253.18948.324739.501189@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 4, Eric Dittman wrote: > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? Here is a copy of a message I sent on 7/22/2001 about this: They're are three power connectors in the "standard" family as defined by IEC...a low-, medium-, and high-current version. The low-current version is the one we're all used to, 10A. The one on some MicroVAX chassis is the 15A version. The third is a larger one (20A, I think but I'm not sure) that has three flat pins in a triangular arrangement but in two parallel planes, with a plain rectangular body. Tey're found on some larger Cisco routers (7513 for one) and on SGI Challenge-L systems for example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 4 16:46:48 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 (was: RE: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467026@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010904174648.00ed0830@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Woyciesjes may have mentioned these words: > It sounds like you would get more enjoyment out of building & using >it, rather that letting it sit and collect dust. If you're toying with >building it, I would say go for it, but keep all the packing and paperwork, >too. That helps increase the 'value'. > >I think it all depends on whether you plan on selling it, or keeping it. I >would definitely build & use it. [snippage, fore and aft...] I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the "reproducability" would be decreased once the kit is built... i.e. you can't [easily] scan the boards, or re-design them in AutoCad, etc... With this in mind, I was digging thru an old box of CoCo stuff I have and I came across (2) Xpndr1 expansion cards, 1 of which is virgin. A quick search of Google shows nothing about them... I've started re-designing the card in AutoCad (as if I didn't have *enough* projects ;-) with improvements. Some are minor, like putting the signal names on the top of the card instead of the bottom (so it's easier to see the signal names when I attach a small breadboard to the top of the card...) some are major (or going to be) like the extra room for standoffs so it'll be self-supporting, and also connector ports for both a "PC hard drive power port" and a "PC floppy drive power port" so you can power the thing from any PC power supply *or* an FD-50x power supply. I also plan on having one that buffers all of the data, address & major signal lines on the board, so that experimenting might be easier without blowing the entire CoCo bus. Which leads to my questions: A) Anybody know anything about the company that marketed these, as I don't want to intentionally break any copyright laws; but with no info on the internet & the extreme possibility of the company no longer existing, does anyone think I'll be in trouble with the law WRT copyright laws? I'm mainly just using the original as a pattern for (1) the signal names & pinouts, and (2) the dimensions of the connectors & pins (I didn't have anything else that had the ground pegs on either side of the connector). B) I can prolly find this out for myself, but there are many others here better than me on the hardware side of things: What would be some of the better [a.k.a more useful] buffer chips I could use to buffer the address & data busses? C) Are there any *real* problems with powering the card from a separate power supply? I'm assuming I need to tie the grounds together, but I wouldn't want the +5 / +12 / -12 volt rails tied at all -- they should be separate, right? [[no, I really don't feel like dissecting my MPI just yet... altho I think it's the *only* piece of computer equipment I've never taken apart! ]] Should I check the voltage levels of the power supply & the CoCo to see how close they are, or as long as they're both within TTL levels is it OK? I'm mainly worried about the PC supply being of a higher voltage than the CoCo, if that'll cause problems. =-=-=-=- The designs (when they get closer to completion) I will have on my website for free, but if I make several cards and someone else is dumb^H^H^H^H bold enough to purchase one I would sell them for a small profit... Anywho, thanks for listening, and double-thanks for any advice that others might be willing to offer... ;-) Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From vze2mnvr at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 16:43:54 2001 From: vze2mnvr at verizon.net (Jan Koller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) Message-ID: <3B954B1A.F7002E96@verizon.net> Hello Eric, > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? >From the sound of this, it might be like the power cords needed for our DEC Alpha AXP 3000 -500 and -800 They also needed a standard ISO computer power cord BUT with a notch or groove in it, that isn't in the standard ISO computer power cord, for the connection in the back of the machine. Luckily though, with the Alphas, underneath in front of the machine, where the power came from the back of the machine to where it actually plugs into the power supply, a non-notched cord could be plugged in. Then eventually we finally came up with one of the notched cords. But, before you ask, we can't spare our one and only. Jan From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 4 16:54:23 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Sep 04, 2001 03:25:04 PM Message-ID: <200109042154.f84LsOp20907@shell1.aracnet.com> > So if the power cable has the HP logo then you are way ahead of the > rest of us... I think it's unmarked. > Of course, all my stuff still says "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|", except for > the distribution CDROMs. My SYS$WELCOME says: > > Compaq may have bought Digital, but I'll > always call it DEC. > > I'll have to update that now. > -- > Eric Dittman My SYS$WELCOME doesn't mention any of them. However, I got a kick out of how the banner on the GUI Login still says "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|" under V7.2-1H1, though with 'xdm' from TCPIP 5.1 on other systems you never see it, it's freaky how it looks like a plain UNIX xdm. As for saying Compaq, my 7.2 books, and my latest CD's are all that say it. I'm just wondering what this will do to the price of used DS10's! Zane From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 4 17:05:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001601c1358d$b2d74dc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'll be glad to see 'em both crash due to their top-heavy organization and losing product lines. Maybe something will arise from the ashes that more closely resembles the HP of old, which didn't mind supporting their own products with competent service and support, and was steered by management that could see beyond the next bend in the road. The only HP things from which I've ever extracted useful work are my plotters and printers. The HP CAE system we had when I was in the aerospace industry was an abomination, spliced together from the remnants of unsuccessful enterprises HP had scavenged from all over the country. I've never seen a DEC/Compaq thing I liked. I must have observed these companies at the wrong stages in their respective evolutions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:48 AM Subject: Re: HP & Compaq > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > > and Compaq? > > > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. > > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- > > From Charles.McManis at netapp.com Tue Sep 4 17:09:58 2001 From: Charles.McManis at netapp.com (McManis, Charles) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP buying Compaq Message-ID: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274069@black.eng.netapp.com> Well I for one found it amusing that HP was trying to get away from the "PC" moniker calling them "access devices for the Internet" (which can also be palmtops etc). You know a really bright chap in corporate would say: "Well we make lots of different kinds of equipment, and we gave all the analog stuff away to the Agilent so we just have the digital stuff. I know, we'll call the combined company the digital equipment company, gee that has a nice ring to it." Of course Microsoft loses big because their two biggest licensees for Wince are consolidating into one licensee. --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 4 17:11:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 (was: RE: Keep or assemble??? References: <3.0.1.32.20010904174648.00ed0830@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002201c1358e$903057c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you take the time to redesign this device, the simplest, lowest-risk, easiest, cheapest, and least-exposed-to-copyright-infringement will be to redesign the entire thing in a single CPLD or FPGA, on a board that matches physically and logically, but in no way infringes on the copyright associated with the artwork, which is what can be copyrighted. Circuits themselves would have to be patented, and, folks have found, that's a waste of time, since generating a logical equivalent circumvents the patent, though not the PCB copyright. Once you have a prototype of your new replacement working, put the original on eBay and take a vacation with the proceeds. ... or don't ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Merchberger" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 3:46 PM Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 (was: RE: Keep or assemble??? > Rumor has it that David Woyciesjes may have mentioned these words: > > > It sounds like you would get more enjoyment out of building & using > >it, rather that letting it sit and collect dust. If you're toying with > >building it, I would say go for it, but keep all the packing and paperwork, > >too. That helps increase the 'value'. > > > >I think it all depends on whether you plan on selling it, or keeping it. I > >would definitely build & use it. > > [snippage, fore and aft...] > > I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the "reproducability" would be > decreased once the kit is built... i.e. you can't [easily] scan the boards, > or re-design them in AutoCad, etc... > > With this in mind, I was digging thru an old box of CoCo stuff I have and I > came across (2) Xpndr1 expansion cards, 1 of which is virgin. A quick > search of Google shows nothing about them... > > I've started re-designing the card in AutoCad (as if I didn't have *enough* > projects ;-) with improvements. Some are minor, like putting the signal > names on the top of the card instead of the bottom (so it's easier to see > the signal names when I attach a small breadboard to the top of the > card...) some are major (or going to be) like the extra room for standoffs > so it'll be self-supporting, and also connector ports for both a "PC hard > drive power port" and a "PC floppy drive power port" so you can power the > thing from any PC power supply *or* an FD-50x power supply. I also plan on > having one that buffers all of the data, address & major signal lines on > the board, so that experimenting might be easier without blowing the entire > CoCo bus. > > Which leads to my questions: > > A) Anybody know anything about the company that marketed these, as I don't > want to intentionally break any copyright laws; but with no info on the > internet & the extreme possibility of the company no longer existing, does > anyone think I'll be in trouble with the law WRT copyright laws? I'm mainly > just using the original as a pattern for (1) the signal names & pinouts, > and (2) the dimensions of the connectors & pins (I didn't have anything > else that had the ground pegs on either side of the connector). > > B) I can prolly find this out for myself, but there are many others here > better than me on the hardware side of things: What would be some of the > better [a.k.a more useful] buffer chips I could use to buffer the address & > data busses? > > C) Are there any *real* problems with powering the card from a separate > power supply? I'm assuming I need to tie the grounds together, but I > wouldn't want the +5 / +12 / -12 volt rails tied at all -- they should be > separate, right? [[no, I really don't feel like dissecting my MPI just > yet... altho I think it's the *only* piece of computer equipment I've never > taken apart! ]] > > Should I check the voltage levels of the power supply & the CoCo to see > how close they are, or as long as they're both within TTL levels is it OK? > I'm mainly worried about the PC supply being of a higher voltage than the > CoCo, if that'll cause problems. > > =-=-=-=- > > The designs (when they get closer to completion) I will have on my website > for free, but if I make several cards and someone else is dumb^H^H^H^H bold > enough to purchase one I would sell them for a small profit... > > Anywho, thanks for listening, and double-thanks for any advice that others > might be willing to offer... ;-) > > Roger "Merch" Merchberger > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. > > If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead > disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. > > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 17:17:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 04, 2001 05:39:16 PM Message-ID: <200109042217.f84MH9M27719@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? > > Here is a copy of a message I sent on 7/22/2001 about this: > > They're are three power connectors in the "standard" family as defined > by IEC...a low-, medium-, and high-current version. The low-current > version is the one we're all used to, 10A. The one on some MicroVAX > chassis is the 15A version. The third is a larger one (20A, I think > but I'm not sure) that has three flat pins in a triangular arrangement > but in two parallel planes, with a plain rectangular body. Tey're > found on some larger Cisco routers (7513 for one) and on SGI > Challenge-L systems for example. Dave, do you happen to have the IEC spec number? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From pricomu at compuserve.de Tue Sep 4 17:24:48 2001 From: pricomu at compuserve.de (PRICOMU) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Nixdorf PC 05 / 8150.00 References: Message-ID: <001301c13590$9625b1a0$e9396781@computer> From: "Sellam Ismail" Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:45 AM Subject: Re: Nixdorf PC 05 / 8150.00 > On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, PRICOMU wrote: > > > Is there anyone out there > > - who has a manual for that maschine or > > - who knows how to connect this maschine to an IBM- compatible XT or AT with > > the cable which was supplied with the PC 05 as there is no possibility to > > run other programs than those on the integrated modules (my provide > > HHC_BASIC vsn 1.3; CALCULATOR and CLOCK) or > > - who has any other information concerning the maschine? > > It sounds like this might be a re-badged Panasonic HHC? I?ve been hanging around on different Websites but - every picture of a Panasonic HHC - shows devices with a single line display. But my Nixdorf has 4! Panasonic may be right because Nixdorf sold a lot of Panasonic as OEM products. On every device I can find "Made in Japan"... I also got something like a "docking-unit" (Nixdorf MD 08 / 8151.00) which has a built in printer and space for 8 more EPROMs and carries also a battery pack (6V - 2000 mAh) > > Hans Franke would probably know, but right about now he's most likely > pushing a three-wheeled motorcycle up a steep mountain grade :) > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 17:32:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 04, 2001 02:54:23 PM Message-ID: <200109042232.f84MWNQ27761@narnia.int.dittman.net> > My SYS$WELCOME doesn't mention any of them. However, I got a kick out of > how the banner on the GUI Login still says "|d|i|g|i|t|a|l|" under V7.2-1H1, > though with 'xdm' from TCPIP 5.1 on other systems you never see it, it's > freaky how it looks like a plain UNIX xdm. With V7.3 it now says "Compaq". -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil Tue Sep 4 17:41:36 2001 From: taylor at crystal.nrl.navy.mil (Douglas Taylor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <3B954B1A.F7002E96@verizon.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010904184019.00a21510@crystal.nrl.navy.mil> At 05:43 PM 9/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hello Eric, > > > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? While we're on the subject of Vax 4000s, where can you get the DSSI drive ID plugs? I need two for my Vax 4000. Doug Taylor From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Sep 4 17:38:41 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 (was: RE: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: >A) Anybody know anything about the company that marketed these, as I don't >want to intentionally break any copyright laws; but with no info on the >internet & the extreme possibility of the company no longer existing, does >anyone think I'll be in trouble with the law WRT copyright laws? I'm mainly >just using the original as a pattern for (1) the signal names & pinouts, >and (2) the dimensions of the connectors & pins (I didn't have anything >else that had the ground pegs on either side of the connector). If you are redesigning for YOUR use only, then at least in the US, there is no copyright problem any which way (it falls under Fair Use). >The designs (when they get closer to completion) I will have on my website >for free, but if I make several cards and someone else is dumb^H^H^H^H bold >enough to purchase one I would sell them for a small profit... This is where you can get in trouble. If you make your mods available to the public (even if for free), you can be seen as infringing upon the owners rights. However, if the company has gone out of business, you probably wont get in any trouble. But do NOT confuse out of business with public domain, they are not one in the same, just because the company is out of business or isn't selling the item any more, does NOT mean that the item is public domain. They still have the rights to it, and can choose how and where it can be made available. I personally still don't think you will have a problem, but you will most likely technically be breaking the law. -chris From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 17:36:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: Re: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) (Eric Dittman) References: <200109042217.f84MH9M27719@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15253.22364.584538.32514@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 4, Eric Dittman wrote: > > They're are three power connectors in the "standard" family as defined > > by IEC...a low-, medium-, and high-current version. The low-current > > version is the one we're all used to, 10A. The one on some MicroVAX > > chassis is the 15A version. The third is a larger one (20A, I think > > but I'm not sure) that has three flat pins in a triangular arrangement > > but in two parallel planes, with a plain rectangular body. Tey're > > found on some larger Cisco routers (7513 for one) and on SGI > > Challenge-L systems for example. > > Dave, do you happen to have the IEC spec number? Nope.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 4 17:53:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 (was: RE: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <002201c1358e$903057c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20010904174648.00ed0830@mail.30below.com> <002201c1358e$903057c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >If you take the time to redesign this device, the simplest, lowest-risk, >easiest, cheapest, and least-exposed-to-copyright-infringement will be to >redesign the entire thing in a single CPLD or FPGA, on a board that matches >physically and logically, but in no way infringes on the copyright associated >with the artwork, which is what can be copyrighted. Circuits themselves would >have to be patented, and, folks have found, that's a waste of time, since >generating a logical equivalent circumvents the patent, though not the PCB >copyright. That's basically what Michael Holley did with his new floppy controller for the SS-30 bus machines from SWTPc. It's compatible with the SWTPc DC-4 but is implemented in a CPLD. It also adds support for a few things the original couldn't do. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From thompson at mail.athenet.net Tue Sep 4 17:54:35 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109042052.NAA12479@opus.allegro.com> Message-ID: I haven't participated in a lenghthy email fest since I gave away that VAX 6000/530 on this list in 2000. On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > QEDIT...it's been the editor of choice on the HP 3000 for 20+ years. > (Also runs on HP-UX) > (There's QEDIT for Windows, which works with the HP 3000 / HP 9000, > but I haven't warmed up to it yet.) > (The reason I like QEDIT is that I can mix line-mode style editing > with visual editing, something few other editors can do well.) I was limited to software supplied with the machine which seemed inadequate compared to VMS and even in the case of EDITOR to vi. I will look into this suggestion... I am no great fan of vi, but HP must have agreed the file corruption issue was a problem since apparently they fixed it in 7.0. If QEDIT is not supplied by HP then I did not have it, nor probably would most new admins. By this measure many of Unix's problems go away by adding third party software. VMS has fewer problems which need 3rd party correction other than disk caching and defragmentation. The supplied utilities are very robust. > > - Patches are not generally available for download and can not (until the > > recently released current version??) be installed from CDROM. > > Not really...itrc.hp.com has them. You can grab "patchman" from HP's I stand corrected. > > - Although the program "mail" is shipped in the POSIX environment, there > > is no MTA to actually send any mail off the system without installing > > sendmail. > > Mail isn't part of the Unix *operating system*, although it's usually > bundled with various Unix *products*. There are several Unix-style > mailers available for MPE. I frequently use MAIL from Telamon (ftp.telamon.com), > because it works well. Yes, I suppose it is. But I have this functionality out of the box on VMS or Unix but not on MPE without a 3rd party product. But why offer "mail" as a product in the POSIX environment but then no transport agent? > > - The facility to automatically reboot without operator intervention at > > the system console is a separately sold option. (see Autorestart/IX) > > So? Having this option is more robust. It is not a separately purchased item on most OS's and would seem to be a fundamental feature by most modern standards. > BTW, if you want to trigger a reboot remotely, that ability has been > available for about 15 years ... not well known, perhaps. Indeed, not to me. I will have to dig further. It seems odd to have an unsupported workaround for this fundamentual function, and not necessarily due to purported stability problems of other OS's. > > - I can change between OpenVMS/Tru64/Linux/Windoze at will with firmware > > settings on my Alphas. I need HP field engineer & his magic number > > generator to do the same between HPUX and MPE. > > And you want to .... why? :) Many of my work machines have run various combinations of Unix or VMS as workload required. In most cases we were able to get free temporary licenses from DEC/Compaq before our permanent license transfers took effect all with no additional vendor intervention. At Y2k test time this was an especial advantage. Although some of my 2100's came with Windows installed I did not do anything with them other than install over it so predictably that was the least useful. :-) Nowadays you can run Unix and VMS on the same machine at the same time and allocate CPU's around as needed provided your iron is big enough. > BTW, can you say "fsck". An MPE user doesn't know that that word is... > a typoed version of f*ck ... which is what's said when a Unix user > has to run it. I see these complaints repeatedly and they tend to apply to extremely old versions of Unix, and no version of VMS. UFS/HFS on unix, where fsck was a swear word is long gone or at least should be by now. At one time file system stability was a advantage of MPE or VMS. > (My partner has spent all day trying to resurrect a client's HP-UX system > that had 3 disk drives fail this weekend... after the drives were replaced, > HP-UX notes that 3 volumes are missing from some volume groups, and > 3 unknown problems are present ... 8 hours of fighting HP-UX and SAM later, > well...they're still fighting, so there's no resolution yet.) While maybe not in your case, this can from be a familiarity issue with the commands and how they work. Don't use SAM as a crutch. Just as on MPE, staying current with patches is important. Also, this sounds like a LVM issue rather than a vxfs issue (if your customer has a version of unix which supports vxfs) and if we are going to quibble over products they are separate and can be used separately. > > - User licensing & hardware very strictly tied. > > So? That's not an *operating system* issue, that's a *product* issue! True. It was a product decision which has made MPE operating system less versatile. I can run a shitload of people on a DS10 if I want and it's still fast. It's a small system like a 918. I appreciate the fact my 3000 does not frequently bother me. Neither do my VMS machines. Your comments about system availability, scalability, access to kernel debugging information and programming in privileged rings, ease of management, and advantages over unix could be taken almost word for word from advocates of OpenVMS, and in many cases of System 390, AS/400, Tandem, et al. as evidenced by Usenet. It would still be a shame if VMS succumbed to NIH at HP. Paul From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 4 18:01:13 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: (MPE vs VMS) HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: from "Paul Thompson" at Sep 04, 2001 05:54:35 PM Message-ID: <200109042301.QAA14089@opus.allegro.com> Re: > I was limited to software supplied with the machine which seemed > inadequate compared to VMS and even in the case of EDITOR to vi. I will understandable. > If QEDIT is not supplied by HP then I did not have it, nor probably would > most new admins. BTW, HP has a company wide license to use QEDIT! > Indeed, not to me. I will have to dig further. It seems odd to have an > unsupported workaround for this fundamentual function, and not necessarily > due to purported stability problems of other OS's. One method: :debug mr pc, _reboot_cpu c Or, we can provide you with a free "REBOOT" program if you want it. > I see these complaints repeatedly and they tend to apply to extremely old > versions of Unix, and no version of VMS. HP-UX 11i, for example? Just had to run it on Friday. > Also, this sounds like a LVM issue rather than a vxfs issue (if your yep. > Your comments about system availability, scalability, access to kernel > debugging information and programming in privileged rings, ease of > management, and advantages over unix could be taken almost word for word > from advocates of OpenVMS, and in many cases of System 390, AS/400, > Tandem, et al. as evidenced by Usenet. Yep...lot of misinformation out there :) > It would still be a shame if VMS succumbed to NIH at HP. we agree. -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From arthur.clark3 at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 17:48:58 2001 From: arthur.clark3 at verizon.net (Arthur E. Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256E4@jeffserver.tegjeff. com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904182951.0328c570@pop3.norton.antivirus> I'll second that. There was a time when I thought HP was a great company making great products. Although they still make some excellent high-end computers, their home and office desktops and laptops are horrible. I have never dealt with a single HP computer that worked right. Their outstanding lead in the printer business is a thing of the past. There are now many companies making printers just as good, for a hell of a lot less money. Occasionally I see Circuit City or another retailer running a contest in which the prize is a HP computer. My remark is always "Second prize is _two_ HP computers." OTOH, all of the Compaq computers that I have dealt with have been trouble free. I think their maintenance HDD partition and peripheral BIOS/peripheral management is great. About the only thing that I don't like is their extremely proprietary design. That's fine on enterprise servers. It's inexcusable on a business desktop that someone actually has to support in a small business environment. Arthur Clark At 11:45 AM 9/4/2001 -0400, you wrote: >After swallowing DEC, I'm glad to see COMPAQ get swallowed. > >But my opinion of Hewlett-Backward isn't what it used to be, >and I don't think we'll be buying anymore DeskJam printers >or DesignJam plotters, as they are no longer honoring the >terms of the service contracts they sold us. > >Any escalating replies should be mailed to me privately... > >Regards, >-dq > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:35 AM > > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > Subject: HP & Compaq > > > > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > and Compaq? > > > > Jeff > > -- > > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > > http://www.cchaven.com > > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 4 18:09:37 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP buying Compaq Message-ID: <008201c13598$101fdfb0$1cef9a8d@ajp166> From: McManis, Charles >Of course Microsoft loses big because their two biggest licensees for Wince are consolidating into one licensee. Sometimes the dragon wins... It's nice to see the black knight's lance being used for a toothpick. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 4 18:07:45 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <008101c13598$0ab8f840$1cef9a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >The only HP things from which I've ever extracted useful work are my plotters >and printers. The HP CAE system we had when I was in the aerospace industry was Their printers are ok but, I have to go to Agilent for the test gear they were known for. >HP had scavenged from all over the country. I've never seen a DEC/Compaq thing >I liked. I must have observed these companies at the wrong stages in their >respective evolutions. Yep!. Allison From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 4 18:36:52 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B956594.53FCC0D7@tiac.net> I think HP had best clean Compaq's clock. I work for Media 100, where we use Compaq workstations for non-linear video editing systems, so I have some experiance with Compaq. Also, I own a Compaq workstation personally, I love the hardware, but... Compaq deserves to be slapped. Like all companies that let their brand-name go to their heads, they have forgotten how to do business. On the other hand, maybe HP never forgot? Jeff Hellige wrote: > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > and Compaq? > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 4 18:38:19 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> Oh, you mean the technology Intel got from DEC? (thats why Compaq (who buys Intel CPU's) killed the Alpha) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > > and Compaq? > > > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. > > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 4 18:35:26 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904182951.0328c570@pop3.norton.antivirus> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904182951.0328c570@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: > I'll second that. There was a time when I thought HP was a >great company making great products. Although they still make some >excellent high-end computers, their home and office desktops and >laptops are horrible. I have never dealt with a single HP computer >that worked right. Their outstanding lead in the printer business >is a thing of the past. There are now many companies making >printers just as good, for a hell of a lot less money. Occasionally >I see Circuit City or another retailer running a contest in which >the prize is a HP computer. My remark is always "Second prize is >_two_ HP computers." Quill is currently running a special that if you buy a specific Deskjet printer (forget which model) you get a second lesser Deskjet printer for free. I had to order an inexpensive stand alone printer for someone today and ended up with that deal. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 4 18:45:19 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3B95678F.BB0DE674@tiac.net> Simple, I suspect your itching to build them, but concerned about any impact on their 'value' as unbuilt kits. So build them, but as you do so, make a video of the progress, and document any oddities you'll likley find as you complete the kits and get them working. Frankly, a good job of documenting the (generally low) quality of kits from that era is probably more 'valuable' than the unbuilt kit. "Cini, Richard" wrote: > Hello, all: > > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of > keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. > I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the > ZX81 I got in a trade. > > Thoughts? > > Rich > > ========================== > Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Congress Financial Corporation > 1133 Avenue of the Americas > 30th Floor > New York, NY 10036 > (212) 545-4402 > (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 17:38:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <20010904023213.FUVX22677.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 3, 1 10:30:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 778 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010904/39199cab/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 17:41:39 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Color Computer "Audio Spectrum Analyzer" cart In-Reply-To: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> from "charles hobbs" at Sep 3, 1 08:58:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 751 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010904/fd773e89/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 18:00:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Zenith In-Reply-To: <3B94E74D.D5341D03@dryden.lakeheadu.ca> from "awc" at Sep 4, 1 09:38:05 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 767 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/868c19a7/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 18:10:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> from "Cini, Richard" at Sep 4, 1 03:20:07 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 797 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/4480c442/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 4 18:58:00 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 (was: RE: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <002201c1358e$903057c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.1.32.20010904174648.00ed0830@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010904195800.00ed0830@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words: >If you take the time to redesign this device, the simplest, lowest-risk, >easiest, cheapest, and least-exposed-to-copyright-infringement will be to >redesign the entire thing in a single CPLD or FPGA, on a board that matches >physically and logically, but in no way infringes on the copyright associated >with the artwork, which is what can be copyrighted. Circuits themselves would >have to be patented, and, folks have found, that's a waste of time, since >generating a logical equivalent circumvents the patent, though not the PCB >copyright. Thanks for the good info (as that will help me with other projects) but in this particular case, it's just a bare board. As I don't have a scanner hooked up, and my digipixelator is broked :-( I currently cannot easily share a picture of the board with y'all. But... it's just a board. All it's designed to do is to bring the CoCo bus signals to pads in which the end user could solder wires to to interface chips (which you add yourself) to implement in designing your own expansion(s). Oh, and it had extra +5V & Gnd rails in between the IC pin rows, to make it easier to hook up Vcc & ground to your chips. If you wanted +/- 12V, you had to route that yourself... (and which was no longer supplied by the CoCo2/3) I'm just using the board as a template to design my own board, that *will* have buffer circuits, a separate power supply junction, & other things (like maybe a breadboard) before I put it into initial use. And I'd love to *find* a used/older/cheap CPLD programmer... >Once you have a prototype of your new replacement working, put the original on >eBay and take a vacation with the proceeds. ... or don't ... Erm..... Nope. ;-) > >Dick =-=-=-=-=-=-= And Chris wrote: > This is where you can get in trouble. If you make your mods available to > the public (even if for free), you can be seen as infringing upon the > owners rights. However, if the company has gone out of business, you > probably wont get in any trouble. But do NOT confuse out of business with > public domain, they are not one in the same, just because the company is > out of business or isn't selling the item any more, does NOT mean that > the item is public domain. They still have the rights to it, and can > choose how and where it can be made available. I personally still don't > think you will have a problem, but you will most likely technically be > breaking the law. I do understand that... but with my redesign (which is basically from scratch, as I *could* find all of the info from other sources) my board will be so much different from what actually sits in front of me, I don't think it would be recognizible whatsoever to the original board [[ bad mental picture: imagine a calico cat laying an egg & hatching an alligator... eeewww! ]] All I used the board for was the external measurements (which my old drafting scale worked wonderfully) and the pin signals (which I could easily have gotten from my CoCo 1/2/3 techref manuals... if they weren't boxed & stored). >From there, it was all AutoCad & my Imanganation. Thanks for the help! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From optimus at canit.se Tue Sep 4 18:59:36 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? Our HP 9000/832 uses such a cable, too. They're not entirely uncommon, but if you haven't got one, why not just carve a notch into a common cable? From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 4 19:01:52 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: Eric Dittman "Re: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440)" (Sep 4, 17:17) References: <200109042217.f84MH9M27719@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <10109050101.ZM28034@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 4, 17:17, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > > > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > > > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > > > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? > > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > Here is a copy of a message I sent on 7/22/2001 about this: > > > > They're are three power connectors in the "standard" family as defined > > by IEC...a low-, medium-, and high-current version. The low-current > > version is the one we're all used to, 10A. The one on some MicroVAX > > chassis is the 15A version. The third is a larger one (20A, I think > > but I'm not sure) that has three flat pins in a triangular arrangement > > but in two parallel planes, with a plain rectangular body. Tey're > > found on some larger Cisco routers (7513 for one) and on SGI > > Challenge-L systems for example. > > Dave, do you happen to have the IEC spec number? It's IEC 320, which is in several parts; you probably want Sheets C13, C14, C19 and C20. I should point out that the current ratings used in the United States are different for those used in Europe. Also that the current rating depends on the type of cable, not just the connector. Many of the power cords built to the spec are rated at 5A or 6A (6A was the original spec for the common IEC 320 *connector* but it was uprated a few years ago) because the *cable* in them is only rated for that much. The ordinary connectors are rated for use at temperatures up to 65 Celcius, and are sometimes called "cold condition" connectors. The version with the notch (keyway) is called a "hot condition" connector, and in Europe it's still only rated for 10A. However, hot condition connectors are made of materials able to stand a higher temperature and are used for things like electric kettles. They're rated for operation at up to 120 Celcius. In the States the connector is rated for 16A (again, assuming the cable itself is rated that high). The original intent was not to provide a higher current rating but a higher operating temperature. It just so happens that things that get hot (kettles) tend to use a lot of current to do so :-) The third version has the three pins all parallel in the same horizontal plane (ie, 90 degrees around from the others), and is slightly larger. It's rated at 16A in Europe (and for 20A in the States, I believe) but only up to 65 Celcius. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 4 19:25:49 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109050025.CAA25568@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 4 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply Get a knife and make a notch into a usual power plug where you need it. Not nice, but worked for me. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 4 19:35:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: Message-ID: <000e01c135a2$b3a084a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Tony's right in what he says, but if you have an unassembled kit with the packaging in good-to-excellent condition, you can use the included documentation (they included documentation back in those days) to replicate the item in question, package the replica however it suits you to do so, and then sell the item on eBay, where you'll get enough for it to allow you to take a nice vacation, buy a car (not a BMW) or some such. It's YOUR stuff and what other think isn't as important as what YOU want do do with it. If you want to make points with others, sell it and give away the proceeds. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 5:10 PM Subject: Re: Keep or assemble??? > > > > Hello, all: > > > > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of > > keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. > > I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the > > ZX81 I got in a trade. > > > > Thoughts? > > My views are, as ever, the opposite to the ones I've already seen here. > > To me, the answer is obvious. Build it. An unassembled computer kit is a > box of chip. An assembled computer kit is a machine that can be > interesting to use, to hack, etc. I don't collect boxes of chips. And I > certainly have no interest in how the kits were packaged about 20 years > ago. > > No, I'd enjoy building the kit (soldering up PCBs is restful for me), and > I'd enjoy using it. > > -tony > > From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 4 19:47:22 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Any info on the Hughes HM-4118 computer? References: Message-ID: <3B95761A.C6DF57D1@tiac.net> Many years ago I was trained on the maintainance of what was then an already vintage computer, the HM-4118. This was an 18-bit mini with lots of core, totally mil-spec all the way down to a Klienschmidt teletype terminal. This computer needed to be rugged and dependable, it was the brain for a combat air-traffic control radar system. Built by Huge Aircrash, err, um, Hughes Aircraft, this system (called a TSQ-91) could be set up just about anywhere in the world (and often were) on short notice to provide command, control and communications capabilities, rather like an AWACS plane meets a MASH camp, in a kinda-mobile ground installation. The HM-4118 has got to be one of the most physically rugged blinkinlights mini's ever made. It was so overbuilt it could easily win any contest for 'most-ugly-mini', yet with its real-time, vector-graphic radar display overlays it was also the 'coolest' computer I've ever worked with (beating things like Connection Machines). Anyway, is there anywhere I could find info on the HM-4118, or god-forbid, ever find one of these beasts, or its ancestors? I do know of a stash of photographs of a TSQ-91 system in operation, some excellent quality slides. I should see about getting some of these scanned sometime.... From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 4 19:40:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> Message-ID: <002001c135a3$589fe5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Which technology was that??? The last time I remember DEC inventing anything fairly current was when they came up with the VAX. That was 25 years ago. Everything they sold was the OLDEST technology they could get and still foist of on the unwary buyer. They'd NEVER have used anything as up-to-date as what Intel pushes, not that it's the latest-greatest. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Shannon" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 5:38 PM Subject: Re: HP & Compaq > Oh, you mean the technology Intel got from DEC? > > (thats why Compaq (who buys Intel CPU's) killed the Alpha) > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > > > and Compaq? > > > > > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. > > > > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > > > > -- > > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > > -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- Kronecker ----------- > > From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 4 19:41:06 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: Nixdorf PC 05 / 8150.00 In-Reply-To: <001301c13590$9625b1a0$e9396781@computer> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, PRICOMU wrote: > I´ve been hanging around on different Websites but - every picture of > a Panasonic HHC - shows devices with a single line display. But my > Nixdorf has 4! Panasonic may be right because Nixdorf sold a lot of > Panasonic as OEM products. On every device I can find "Made in > Japan"... I also got something like a "docking-unit" (Nixdorf MD 08 / > 8151.00) which has a built in printer and space for 8 more EPROMs and > carries also a battery pack (6V - 2000 mAh) Sounds even more like an HHC now :) When Hans comes limping into town I'll try to remember to ask him about this. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Sep 4 19:44:29 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:15 2005 Subject: 8032-SK repairs again Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010905014429.011066e8@192.168.1.2> Hi all, If you're wondering why I've gone quite on the 8032SK front, it's because I'm busy digesting lots of digital electronics books :) I'm surprised at how much I still remember from my school/polytech days - not to mention how much I've forgotten! And why is it two's complement seems so easy now, wheras it used to be so difficult? Weird... Anyway, another PET related question: I've got 4 of the things now, and all of them suffer from wobbly screens to some extent; the oldest (PET 2001) is the least affected somehow.... Aside: Tony mentioned this is probably the electrolytic(s) drying up, and that I should get an ESR meter (good idea, now that I know what one does); I think I'll get a kit one - more soldering practice :). Hmm. Back to the question... Each PET has a huge electrolytic next to the transformer marked "23000mF". Even given the can size, I assume they mean micro-F as opposed to milli-F; but 23000uF seems to be impossible to get, should I replace with a 22000uF or a 33000uF, both of which are readily available? Also, do other non-electrolytic caps degrade - if so, would it be worth replacing *all* the caps on old kit like this? Even so, is it worth replacing all the electrolytic caps as a precaution, or should I just wait impatiently for the ESR meter and only replace the suspect ones? And finally: I bought a "Tip tinner/cleaner" block, and now my soldering iron works a treat! Thanks guys, for rekindling my latent interest in "real" electronics! Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 19:58:39 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Iggy Drougge" at Sep 05, 2001 01:59:36 AM Message-ID: <200109050058.f850wdO27976@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? > > Our HP 9000/832 uses such a cable, too. They're not entirely uncommon, but > if you haven't got one, why not just carve a notch into a common cable? Because I want to make sure I use a cable of the proper rating. Just because a cable is thick doesn't mean the wirees are thick. If I get the proper cable I'll have one of the proper rating. Right now I'm using a standard cable I've carved with a notch, but without striping away the insulation I won't know the thickness of the wires. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 19:59:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Pete Turnbull" at Sep 05, 2001 12:01:52 AM Message-ID: <200109050059.f850xR427985@narnia.int.dittman.net> > It's IEC 320, which is in several parts; you probably want Sheets C13, C14, > C19 and C20. >...(much useful information deleted)... Thanks, Pete. With this information I can get the proper cable. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 20:06:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: Re: HP & Compaq (Richard Erlacher) References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> <002001c135a3$589fe5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15253.31386.94548.569348@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 4, Richard Erlacher wrote: > The last time I remember DEC inventing anything fairly current was when they > came up with the VAX. That was 25 years ago. Everything they sold was the > OLDEST technology they could get and still foist of on the unwary buyer. They'd > NEVER have used anything as up-to-date as what Intel pushes, not that it's the > latest-greatest. Troll alert. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com Tue Sep 4 19:14:39 2001 From: norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com (norm-classiccmp@docnorm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: removing a Kennedy tape drive from its rack Message-ID: Hi folks, Brian Knittel and I have acquired a Kennedy vacuum-column tape drive (along with a VAX 11/750 and some other goodies), which he is right this minute driving up from San Jose. He tells me that the tape drive is on rails and rack-mounted, and that the way to remove it from the rack is not obvious. (He can see a latch that prevents the drive from sliding farther into the rack, but not the one that is preventing it from sliding out.) Can anyone tell us how to get it out? This will make it much easier to get out of the rent-a-truck and up the stairs. Thanks! Norm Aleks From Diff at Mac.com Tue Sep 4 20:38:45 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> <002001c135a3$589fe5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <001d01c135ab$81c29fa0$0501000a@laboffice> Erm. The Alpha? At one point, not only was the Alpha faster clock for clock, but if I remember correctly, those chips were running at 533 when the P2 333 was released. On top of which, all the chip designers from DEC have now been hired by either AMD or Intel (from what I have heard) Not current indeed. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 8:40 PM Subject: Re: HP & Compaq > Which technology was that??? > > The last time I remember DEC inventing anything fairly current was when they > came up with the VAX. That was 25 years ago. Everything they sold was the > OLDEST technology they could get and still foist of on the unwary buyer. They'd > NEVER have used anything as up-to-date as what Intel pushes, not that it's the > latest-greatest. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bob Shannon" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 5:38 PM > Subject: Re: HP & Compaq > > > > Oh, you mean the technology Intel got from DEC? > > > > (thats why Compaq (who buys Intel CPU's) killed the Alpha) > > > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > > > > and Compaq? > > > > > > > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. > > > > > > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > > > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > > > > > > -- > > > ----------------------------- personal page: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > > > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * > ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > > > -- God made the integers; all else is the work of Man. -- > Kronecker ----------- > > > > > From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 20:39:06 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 04, 2001 06:40:22 PM Message-ID: <200109050139.f851d6W28124@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Which technology was that??? > > The last time I remember DEC inventing anything fairly current was when they > came up with the VAX. That was 25 years ago. Everything they sold was the > OLDEST technology they could get and still foist of on the unwary buyer. They'd > NEVER have used anything as up-to-date as what Intel pushes, not that it's the > latest-greatest. The Alpha is still superior to the IA64. What other operating system has the same clustering capabilities as OpenVMS (or better)? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 4 20:54:36 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256E4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: I do service for in-warranty and out of warranty equipment from printers and plotters to laptops and peecees (home and biz) as well as network and servers and usually the ones that are not honoring the warranty are the second source service sellers. Staples is a good one for having problems after the HP warranty (under their own extended plan) and ends up sending things to me when/if they actually do get someone that still has their paperwork and demands satisfaction from the bogus service contract they got sucked into. HP has extended many of their warranties. The whole inkjet Color Copier line went from 1 yr to 3 yrs around the first of the millenium as did others. Many of the problems people experience are from idiots in between that act as spokespeople for HP and make HP look like the villan. Compaq also has certain good features but the real problem willbe if HP kills the out-of=production machines they have info posted for now. I wonder if HP will absorb Compaq and totally do away with them or still run them as an independantly named subsidiary. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:46 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> -> -> After swallowing DEC, I'm glad to see COMPAQ get swallowed. -> -> But my opinion of Hewlett-Backward isn't what it used to be, -> and I don't think we'll be buying anymore DeskJam printers -> or DesignJam plotters, as they are no longer honoring the -> terms of the service contracts they sold us. -> -> Any escalating replies should be mailed to me privately... -> -> Regards, -> -dq -> -> -> > -----Original Message----- -> > From: Jeff Hellige [mailto:jhellige@earthlink.net] -> > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:35 AM -> > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > Subject: HP & Compaq -> > -> > -> > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP -> > and Compaq? -> > -> > Jeff -> > -- -> > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> > http://www.cchaven.com -> > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> > -> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 20:39:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <000e01c135a2$b3a084a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 4, 1 06:35:45 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2234 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/1df4f519/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 20:42:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <002001c135a3$589fe5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 4, 1 06:40:22 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 696 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/c8a4446e/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 4 21:08:53 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <00e201c135b1$5e939ba0$1cef9a8d@ajp166> From: Richard Erlacher >The last time I remember DEC inventing anything fairly current was when they >came up with the VAX. That was 25 years ago. Everything they sold was the >OLDEST technology they could get and still foist of on the unwary buyer. They'd >NEVER have used anything as up-to-date as what Intel pushes, not that it's the >latest-greatest. By time it's available for hobbiests maybe. Most of the stable products were ahead of the pack, they had to be the pack was hungry and chasing! Lessee, Alpha, remember the 64 bit cpu that was what 10 years ahead of Itainium and the slow parts were maybe 2 times the speed of the fastest intel part running intel emulation. DLT quantums flagship tape backup... formally a DEC patent and was the TK50 back in the mid 80s when the competition was DC600 and 9080 carts. The RZ series of 3.5" drives were connor electonics but the HDA were DEC technology and design. Those SCSI drives were right on the front edge of SCSI standards that were still emerging. Oh and they were fast as well for their time. Beware the comment that sounds like allways and never, rarely are things really that way. DEC was one of the leaders, while they were selling PDP-8s in the form of DECmates and PDP-11s to people that didnt want or need VAXen. Even those "old" systems were sometimes more modern than the PCs of the moment. If anything else they were more likely to be to be found in use or at least working in the early 21st century. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 4 20:50:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: 8032-SK repairs again In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010905014429.011066e8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Sep 5, 1 01:44:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2413 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/b2754af0/attachment.ksh From jhfine at idirect.com Tue Sep 4 21:17:31 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else References: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3B958B3B.63538A64@idirect.com> >Mike Ford wrote: > >Jumping in late, I know, but when I was at Georgia Tech (mid- to late-80s), > >we were taught x86 assembly. There was a real focus on the concept that > One of the most educational classes I took was writing assembly language > modules that were called from Fortran on a IBM 360. Did a wonderfull job of > beating a number of important concepts into my head, because either you > understood or it didn't work. Jerome Fine replies: One of the most important lessons that can be learned is when a subroutine written in FORTRAN (or any other high level language - even C) is converted to assembly language is the efficiency of the code generator in the high level language. In the past, assembly language was often twice as efficient. However, these days, a complicated subroutine might be much more efficient due to the ability of the CPU to begin execution of more than one instruction at a time (or at least to begin several before others have finished). Consequently, although converting a simple subroutine written in FORTRAN to assembly language will almost always be more efficient, it can no longer be stated with a complex subroutine. On the other hand, I do agree with Mike that performing that conversion teaches most people what the CPU actually does, instruction by instruction, when a particular calculation needs to be accomplished. Indeed, there are some operations that are well suited to be done in FORTRAN and others which are not. It helps to learn to code in assembly language to understand what the CPU is actually doing. Also, it is instructive to realize that when a program needs to be executed only once or a very few times, a high level language has its place since even if it is less efficient, the overall cost is much less. But for large scale production, the reverse is usually true. Been there, done that! Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Sep 4 21:15:39 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20010904125502.01ced348@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010904221539.01171ee4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 02:44 PM 9/4/01 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> HP needed better production technology than what they had in >> order for their new chip design to stick. The choices were DEC, >> Intel and IBM. Guess what happened. > >IBM is doing the multi-layer ceramic interconnect packaging for the >Itanium. IBM was a latecomer in the alliance. At the time this was agreed, DEC's Alpha outclocked all other mass-production cpus, but Intel was outspending everyone in production technology research. IA64 is the result of a chain of decisions that started a long time ago. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu Tue Sep 4 22:59:45 2001 From: brian at sigh.mse.jhu.edu (Brian Harrington) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200109041911.f84JBQ627034@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <2346036.999647984@[172.18.201.102]> --On Tuesday, September 4, 2001 2:11 PM -0500 Eric Dittman wrote: > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? 1-800-DIGITAL, P/N BN20A-2E worked for me about a year ago. I think they were about $10 each. The often overlooked "VAX 4000 Site Preparation Guide" just happens to have a three page appendix devoted to power cable part numbers. Now that's documentation. :-) -- Brian -- Brian Harrington Milton S. Eisenhower Library The Johns Hopkins University brian@sigh.mse.jhu.edu From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 4 22:59:14 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 kit (was Re: Keep or assemble???) Message-ID: <20010905040140.DJWE22677.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Cini, Richard > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of > keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. Build the ZX81 kit! I've done three of them and they're easy and fun (if your soldering skills are good). If you're planning on using the ZX81, remember: you don't *have* to build it into its case (with its "unique" keyboard) and you can also leave the RF modulator out and make an easy modification to provide high-quality video to a modern TV with composite video in. It's also easy to increase the onboard RAM from 1KB to 32KB. You wind up with a pretty fair Z80 system with a decent BASIC, crisp video, access to the Z80 via the expansion port, and adequate memory. Let us know what you do! Glen 0/0 From chobbs at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 4 22:57:38 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Atari find References: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> <3B958B3B.63538A64@idirect.com> Message-ID: <3B95A2B2.E7976523@socal.rr.com> At the last TRW swapmeet in So. Cal, I picked up a couple of Atari XE130's for $5 each. The seller said he had pulled them out of a school computer lab. No power supplies, but a quick trip to Ebay fixed that... So I connect one of them to my TV, and flip on the power switch. The console LED turned on, and the TV screen went black. That's it. Uh-oh... Well, we have another one to try. So I connect it, and it boots into Atari Basic. Much better. I did a quick hello-world type basic program. Welcome to the world of Atari. So, is the other one fixable? From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 4 23:07:05 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <20010905040847.HAGU19588.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Adrian Vickers > eBay suggests that unbuilt ZX81s are worth silly money (think ?300 ($450) > upwards). Maybe you're thinking of unbuilt ZX80 kits?? Zebra still sells the ZX81 kits for USD 99.95, which is high. I've seen them go for $50 on ebay recently. The North American ZX81 kits are not at all rare. Glen 0/0 From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 4 23:23:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010904221539.01171ee4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >IBM is doing the multi-layer ceramic interconnect packaging for the > >Itanium. > IBM was a latecomer in the alliance. At the time this was agreed, > DEC's Alpha outclocked all other mass-production cpus, but Intel > was outspending everyone in production technology research. > IA64 is the result of a chain of decisions that started a long > time ago. Technically, IBM isn't even a member of the alliance. IBM is simply the best place to outsource large-scale production of ceramic interconnects. We have no say in the design of the interconnect, but only in the production of the interconnect. Production decisions can make big differences in performance though, and I might be biased, but I would have to say that the MLC Interconnect production at IBM is superior to that of Kyocera or NKK (the two other main players in the industry -- IBM's production is of significantly larger scale... something like 80,000 part starts/day). Peace... Sridhar Sridhar Ayengar Interconnect Products IBM Corp. From jss at subatomix.com Tue Sep 4 23:28:36 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Yet Another Board Cleaning Thread In-Reply-To: <3B93A55D.C11F9853@tiac.net> Message-ID: <20010904211324.N14527-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 3 Sep 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > > Core memory is woven with insulated wire. Dust should NOT be a > factor. Ah. Feel free to bonk me on the head. Though I think I could clean them without damaging them, I understand that it would probably add more risk than it would take away. I think I just might leave the core planes dusty and see what happens. I give many thanks to all who have participated in this thread. I'll fire my second round of board cleaning questions tomorrow. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 4 23:43:05 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <2346036.999647984@[172.18.201.102]> from "Brian Harrington" at Sep 04, 2001 11:59:45 PM Message-ID: <200109050443.f854h5528477@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I remember a couple of months ago there was discussion on > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply (normal North > > American three prong power cord but with a notch where it > > plugs in to the power supply). Was there a consensus on > > the designation (and any place in the US that sell them)? > > 1-800-DIGITAL, P/N BN20A-2E worked for me about a year ago. I think > they were about $10 each. The often overlooked "VAX 4000 Site Preparation > Guide" just happens to have a three page appendix devoted to power cable > part numbers. Now that's documentation. :-) I never even thought of looking in my VAX 4000 manual. I forgot I had it. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 5 00:04:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: <20010905040847.HAGU19588.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <002d01c135c8$3e662f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I could be mistaken about this, but IIRC, a risky bet, but ... wasn't the ZX80 a <$50 proposition back in the '80's and the '81 slightly less, on the order of $29.95? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Keep or assemble??? > > From: Adrian Vickers > > > eBay suggests that unbuilt ZX81s are worth silly money (think ?300 ($450) > > upwards). > > Maybe you're thinking of unbuilt ZX80 kits?? Zebra still sells the ZX81 > kits for USD 99.95, which is high. I've seen them go for $50 on ebay > recently. The North American ZX81 kits are not at all rare. > > Glen > 0/0 > > From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 5 00:45:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: OpenVMS powered search engine! Message-ID: <3B95BBFC.C7E54198@internet1.net> Have any of you seen Northernlight.com? It's Alpha/OpenVMS powered :-) http://www.northernlight.com/ Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Sep 5 00:48:02 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <002001c135a3$589fe5e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010904224542.00bab000@mail.azstarnet.com> At 06:40 PM 9/4/2001 -0600, you wrote: >Which technology was that??? > >The last time I remember DEC inventing anything fairly current was when they >came up with the VAX. That was 25 years ago. Everything they sold was the >OLDEST technology they could get and still foist of on the unwary >buyer. They'd >NEVER have used anything as up-to-date as what Intel pushes, not that it's the >latest-greatest. Um, I'm sure this is a troll, but still -- DEC was a leader in Ethernet implementation; in SCSI; in RISC (Alpha). VMS was the first to have true clustering, a technology that is still largely unequaled elsewhere. DEC's FORTRAN implementation was a leader for many years, and is still excellent. How's that? G From gugler at agames.com Wed Sep 5 01:12:00 2001 From: gugler at agames.com (Sean Gugler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine Message-ID: <3B95C230.3D8C7896@agames.com> Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to summarize from the mighty tome for me? Sorry to bungie post (I'm a brand new list member as of right now), it's not my normal habit, but web searches are failing me for this particular info. The nearest I've found [1] is a bit too cryptic without supplementary descriptions. Cheers, - Sean, Apple //e (enhanced) owner [1] http://www.cs.umu.se/~christer/Apple/ -- Sean Gugler ("Dr. Guz") guz@doctor.com "This quote's just six words long." From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Sep 5 02:03:51 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA manual Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010904235322.01f50890@209.185.79.193> Well thanks to Doug Taylor who lent me one, thanks to Zane who tried Acrobat 5.0, the users guide for the DRV11-WA is now online as a PDF file at the House of VAX. The specific URL is (click on the link for the DRV11-WA. Now to get the Dilog manuals up. --Chuck From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Sep 5 02:16:13 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <3B945174.C8FAAA7D@socal.rr.com> <01Sep4.064201edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <002601c135da$a5eb79e0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> HP was running an ads campaing back in the '80 over here in the Netherlands with a slogan something like: "We can't stay modest forever" (It was printed large on large large structures like bridges etc.) Well, we may now conclude that they certainly didn't stay modest! Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Hellige To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: HP & Compaq > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > and Compaq? > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From hardwire at ptd.net Wed Sep 5 02:41:08 2001 From: hardwire at ptd.net (Christopher Caldwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings References: <200109010407.XAA77581@opal.tseinc.com> <3B907230.ACA9D6B0@jps.net> Message-ID: <3B95D714.BE7B4DEB@ptd.net> Larry Anderson wrote: > > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like > to wear? Simple, devilish pun: 'Once BITten, twice sly.' -Chris From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 5 02:49:33 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: 8032-SK repairs again In-Reply-To: Adrian Vickers "8032-SK repairs again" (Sep 5, 1:44) References: <3.0.6.32.20010905014429.011066e8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <10109050849.ZM28490@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 5, 1:44, Adrian Vickers wrote: > Anyway, another PET related question: I've got 4 of the things now, and all > of them suffer from wobbly screens to some extent; the oldest (PET 2001) is > the least affected somehow.... > Each PET has a huge electrolytic next to the transformer marked "23000mF". > Even given the can size, I assume they mean micro-F as opposed to milli-F; > but 23000uF seems to be impossible to get, should I replace with a 22000uF > or a 33000uF, both of which are readily available? Given that the tolerance on electrolytics is often -20% +50%, I'd say the 22000?F should be fine. It's a reservoir/smoothing capacitor, so 33000?F would also be good. > Also, do other non-electrolytic caps degrade - if so, would it be worth > replacing *all* the caps on old kit like this? The others won't fail the way electrolytics do. As to the electrolytics, many are probably OK and I'd not replace any apart than the ones I thought were faulty. I might replace a whole batch in an old switch-mode PSU if one was failing, because experience suggests that in tightly-packed units, with several caps clustered together, more than one starts to go at around the same time. Especially in SMPSUs that get hot. > And finally: I bought a "Tip tinner/cleaner" block, and now my soldering > iron works a treat! One of those little round BIB cleaners? Great! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Sep 5 04:31:48 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <20010905040847.HAGU19588.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010905103148.011066e8@192.168.1.2> At 12:07 am 05/09/2001 -0400, you wrote: >> From: Adrian Vickers > >> eBay suggests that unbuilt ZX81s are worth silly money (think ?300 ($450) >> upwards). > >Maybe you're thinking of unbuilt ZX80 kits?? Zebra still sells the ZX81 >kits for USD 99.95, which is high. I've seen them go for $50 on ebay >recently. The North American ZX81 kits are not at all rare. No, a pair of ZX81 kits went through recently (although a search no longer shows them, irritatingly) for daft money. OTOH, when a built one can fetch ?200+.... I suspect that was just a mad bidder moment however. I wonder if Zebra do a bulk discount; it strikes me that one could buy a load, then sell them in the UK for easy money... Cheers! Ade. -- B-Racing: B where it's at :-) http://www.b-racing.co.uk From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Sep 5 06:40:35 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: UW surplus? Message-ID: I find myself in Madison WI for the next couple of days... I recall someone mentioned the UW surplus shop as a good spot for classic hardware...does anyone know its hours and location? -- From curt at atari-history.com Wed Sep 5 07:28:37 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Atari find References: <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> <200108242049.PAA08506@opal.tseinc.com> <3B958B3B.63538A64@idirect.com> <3B95A2B2.E7976523@socal.rr.com> Message-ID: <001101c13606$49be8190$c2609040@syzygy2> Hi Charles, If its coming up black screen it could be several things. Green screen would mean bad memory or a bad PIA chip (Parallel Interface Adapter), black could mean the Antic and/or GTIA chips are dead which is a tough one to see happening as they are fairly resiliant little chips. Most likely its a semiconductor someplace on the system which is gone bad. If your not up to poking around at all the major components, there is still an active service center in the US called B&C Atari Sales & Service at: www.myatari.com Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "charles hobbs" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 11:57 PM Subject: Atari find > > At the last TRW swapmeet in So. Cal, I picked up a couple of Atari XE130's for $5 each. > The > seller said he had pulled them out of a school computer lab. No power supplies, but a > quick > trip to Ebay fixed that... > > So I connect one of them to my TV, and flip on the power switch. The console LED turned > on, > and the TV screen went black. That's it. Uh-oh... > > Well, we have another one to try. So I connect it, and it boots into Atari Basic. Much > better. > I did a quick hello-world type basic program. Welcome to the world of Atari. > > So, is the other one fixable? > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Sep 5 08:00:07 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> from Bob Shannon at "Sep 4, 1 07:38:19 pm" Message-ID: <200109051300.GAA08866@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > > So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP > > > > and Compaq? > > > It sure explains why Compaq killed Alpha. > > It sure makes me worry about the future of the HP-RISC line. (Although > > the new Intel technology may have already sealed its death warrant.) > Oh, you mean the technology Intel got from DEC? > (thats why Compaq (who buys Intel CPU's) killed the Alpha) I'm referring to the Itanium; not sure if Intel got that from DEC or not. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- LDA #TXT:JMP $AB1E:TXT .asc "just another c64 hacker":.byt 0d00 - From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 5 07:33:01 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: UW surplus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010905072225.02cf5100@pc> At 06:40 AM 9/5/01 -0500, Paul Thompson wrote: >I find myself in Madison WI for the next couple of days... >I recall someone mentioned the UW surplus shop as a good spot for classic >hardware...does anyone know its hours and location? Open to the public on Fridays and sometimes Saturday: http://www.bussvc.wisc.edu/swap/swap.html Unless you're there at 7:50 AM on Friday, you won't get the stuff that anone else might want. - John From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Sep 5 08:06:24 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Geek Button Sayings In-Reply-To: <3B94A9FF.18278.188C0E@localhost> from Stan Sieler at "Sep 4, 1 10:16:31 am" Message-ID: <200109051306.GAA08134@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > If you had the opportunity to write a classic computer related phrase > > (or whatever will work) on a 2.25" diameter button, what would you like > > to wear? > GOD is real, > unless declared INTEGER Dibs on the .sig file! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- God is Real, unless declared Integer. -- Stan Sieler ----------------------- From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Sep 5 08:07:49 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > > Head crashes :-) > > > > I considered that but don't know of any way to consistently get heads to > > crash in such a controlled manner as to be useable musically (i.e., makes > > pretty much the same sound every time). > > > > Do you? [cut] A friend of mine tells of a friend of his who's HDD was a little noisy when doings seeks - so he used to play tunes with that. > I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders are on-topic :-) Hey - remember they used to be used to store programs before we got disks! :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Sep 5 08:55:11 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010904184019.00a21510@crystal.nrl.navy.mil> Message-ID: Hi, [cut] > While we're on the subject of Vax 4000s, where can you get > the DSSI drive ID plugs? I need two for my Vax 4000. I got almost 2 complete sets when I got my MV3300, so I might be able to spare a couple. How many do you need and what numbers? -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From matt at knm.yi.org Wed Sep 5 08:59:35 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: <200109050025.CAA25568@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Hi, > > the proper cable for a BA440 power supply > Get a knife and make a notch into a usual power plug where you need it. > Not nice, but worked for me. The plus are perfectly common - you can pick them up from most electronics stores ehre in the UK. You can also get cables from household applience companies, as they're used as the connectors for kettle's here - hence the UK slang "Kettle plug" -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Sep 5 09:11:59 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: AS/400 Advanced 36 Model 236 Message-ID: <0a3301c13614$be1e09d0$6401a8c0@dbnh> Anyone interested in one of these? I've got one that I'd like to trade for something interesting. Ideally, I'm interested in a keyboard and mouse for a Symbolics 3645 Lisp Machine. The AS/400 is in southern NH and I'd rather not have to pack it up for shipping. Come by and pick it up if you want it. Also, as I don't have a twinax terminal controller or terminal, I have no way of testing this machine. The people who gave it to me say it worked the last time they used it but I have no way of verifying that. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Sep 5 09:12:22 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > summarize from the mighty tome for me? From: http://www.mac.linux-m68k.org/devel/iwm.php : ======================= : Accessing IWM Registers : ======================= : The IWM chip has several internal registers available to programs. : Access to these registers is controlled by the Q6 and Q7 switches. : : +=====+=====+=======================================+ : | Q6 | Q7 | Register | : +=====+=====+=======================================+ : | off | off | Read data register | : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ : | off | on | Read handshake register | : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ : | on | off | Read status register | : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ : | on | on | Write mode register (if drive is off) | : | | | data register (if drive is on) | : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ : : The mode register is a write-only register containing several flag bits : which control various features if the IWM. To access it, turn off the : drive (by accessing ENABLE), turn on Q6 and Q7, and write to any : odd-numbered address in the $C0E0...$C0EF range. hth, -dq From dbz at mypad.com Wed Sep 5 09:17:43 2001 From: dbz at mypad.com (division by zero) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Atari find In-Reply-To: <200109051142.GAA40479@opal.tseinc.com> References: <200109051142.GAA40479@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <172209953517.20010905091743@mypad.com> > At the last TRW swapmeet in So. Cal, I picked up a couple of Atari > XE130's for $5 each. The seller said he had pulled them out of a > school computer lab. No power supplies, but a quick trip to Ebay fixed > that... Haha, I bet you ended up paying twice that for the PSU's. ^_^ > So I connect one of them to my TV, and flip on the power switch. The > console LED turned on, and the TV screen went black. That's it. > Uh-oh... Houston..... > Well, we have another one to try. So I connect it, and it boots into > Atari Basic. Much better. I did a quick hello-world type basic > program. Welcome to the world of Atari. > So, is the other one fixable? http://www.tomheroes.com/atari_repair.htm No, really, the first thing you ought to do is open it up and make sure there aren't any burnt up or leaking caps, or other visible signs of damage to the board. Then, swap any socketed chips you find with the 'good' ones from the other machine. Be sure to swap them back individually after testing, nothing worse than complicating an already complicated problem. I don't know if the Atari kit has any trouble chips like the PLA in the C64. I have two 130XE's myself that I've never had any problems with. If there aren't any socketed chips, an easy chip test is to power the machine up, wait about 30 seconds, and put your finger on the top of each of the "big" chips. If any one of them is already hot, it's probably shorted and a good candidate for socketing and swapping. Test the RAM chips in the same way, with your finger or other heat-sensitive probe. Good luck, let us know what you come up with. ----- From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Wed Sep 5 09:21:14 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: Finds in Bristol In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010905014429.011066e8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: Picked up a copy of Peter Norton's "Inside the IBM PC" the other day, in a charity shop. It's the fourth edition and covers the PS/2s as well as the true PCs. Also got an IEEE-488 card (PC Elite from Brain Boxes) for the PC ISA bus. Now, the card's too new to mention (1996), but it drives the HP 7550 nicely, and I'll try it on the HP 1980B (digitally-controlled analog scope) next. But the real weirdness is that the software for the card (d/l off the Web) includes a program to transfer data from Commodore PET disks to the PC! Must give that a try sometime, too. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 5 09:34:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: DRV11-WA manual References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010904235322.01f50890@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <001e01c13617$e2c518c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I, BTW, have, once again, run onto my copy of the DRV11-WA user manual. I haven't got time or inclination to scan this document at the moment, but if someone is willing to scan and publish this document where everyone can get at it, I'll happily provide the document (8-1/2"x11") for such purpose for the cost of postage. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:03 AM Subject: DRV11-WA manual > Well thanks to Doug Taylor who lent me one, thanks to Zane who tried > Acrobat 5.0, the users guide for the DRV11-WA is now online as a PDF file > at the House of VAX. The specific URL is > (click on the > link for the DRV11-WA. Now to get the Dilog manuals up. > > --Chuck > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Sep 5 10:29:17 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: OffTopic: Search for Alpha motherboard info... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467029@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> *Sorry about the off-topic multiple-posting, but I'm hoping you guys can help me out here; off list, of course! I hate to have hardware sit unused... I have here a pair of EV4 21064 200MHz CPUs, p/n 21-35023-21. One was from an AlphaStation 200 4/100, (dead power supply, m/b seems to be dead), apparently an upgrade... I was wondering if there is a dual-processor motherboard I could use these on (and where to find one), or what other machines I could use them in... In my DEC3000 System Programmer's Reference, it says the DEC 3000/500X uses the 200MHz 21064. I assume this is the same (as I have above). If so, I could bump my 3000/400 from 133 MHz to 200MHz, right? Thanks in advance for any info... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 5 11:26:19 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109051300.GAA08866@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> from Bob Shannon at "Sep 4, 1 07:38:19 pm" Message-ID: >I'm referring to the Itanium; not sure if Intel got that from DEC or not. They most certainly did not! Itanium is the marketing name for what was called Merced for many years. It's been in development since something like the early 90's. What Intel got from DEC was a FAB, and in some manner the StrongARM processor (I never have understood this one). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 11:58:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: Re: HP & Compaq (Zane H. Healy) References: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> Message-ID: <15254.22948.814935.121756@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 5, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >I'm referring to the Itanium; not sure if Intel got that from DEC or not. > > They most certainly did not! Itanium is the marketing name for what was > called Merced for many years. It's been in development since something > like the early 90's. > > What Intel got from DEC was a FAB, and in some manner the StrongARM > processor (I never have understood this one). And the Tulip chips, and the PCI bridges, and all the other cool DEC chips that we've been using for years... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 5 08:14:44 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <15254.22948.814935.121756@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: HP & Compaq (Zane H. Healy) Message-ID: <20010905170834.COPH27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > > What Intel got from DEC was a FAB, and in some manner the StrongARM > > processor (I never have understood this one). > > And the Tulip chips, and the PCI bridges, and all the other cool DEC > chips that we've been using for years... > > -Dave Boooooooo!!! I love those tulip chipsets...low CPU use, ultra-reliable and well-supported by linux. Is there's ones still in production or what is another equally GOOD one that replaces tulip based NICs? Cheers, Wizard From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 12:18:20 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: Re: HP & Compaq (jpero@sympatico.ca) References: <20010905170834.COPH27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <15254.24156.924527.385209@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 5, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > What Intel got from DEC was a FAB, and in some manner the StrongARM > > > processor (I never have understood this one). > > > > And the Tulip chips, and the PCI bridges, and all the other cool DEC > > chips that we've been using for years... > > Boooooooo!!! I love those tulip chipsets...low CPU use, > ultra-reliable and well-supported by linux. > > Is there's ones still in production or what is another equally GOOD > one that replaces tulip based NICs? They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have Intel logos on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may have been a nightmare or something. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From thompson at mail.athenet.net Wed Sep 5 12:52:04 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:16 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <20010905170834.COPH27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > Boooooooo!!! I love those tulip chipsets...low CPU use, > ultra-reliable and well-supported by linux. > > Is there's ones still in production or what is another equally GOOD > one that replaces tulip based NICs? > I think one of the intel 10/100 NICs is a rebadged DE600 tulip card. -- From pcw at mesanet.com Wed Sep 5 13:24:07 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <15254.24156.924527.385209@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 5, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > > > > What Intel got from DEC was a FAB, and in some manner the StrongARM > > > > processor (I never have understood this one). > > > > > > And the Tulip chips, and the PCI bridges, and all the other cool DEC > > > chips that we've been using for years... > > > > Boooooooo!!! I love those tulip chipsets...low CPU use, > > ultra-reliable and well-supported by linux. > > > > Is there's ones still in production or what is another equally GOOD > > one that replaces tulip based NICs? > > They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have Intel logos > on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may have been a > nightmare or something. ;) Sure: you can at least get 21143 chips from Intel (we use them) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > Peter Wallace From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 5 13:31:07 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: References: <20010905170834.COPH27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: >I think one of the intel 10/100 NICs is a rebadged DE600 tulip card. A DE600 is a Intel NIC, but I've never actually seen one. Wouldn't mind a couple more DE500's though. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 5 13:46:04 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <15254.24156.924527.385209@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > chips that we've been using for years... > > > > Boooooooo!!! I love those tulip chipsets...low CPU use, > > ultra-reliable and well-supported by linux. > > > > Is there's ones still in production or what is another equally GOOD > > one that replaces tulip based NICs? > > They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have Intel logos > on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may have been a > nightmare or something. ;) Those el-cheapo Linksys cards that I like because the newer ones rarely fail on me and when they do they are cheap to replace, are Tulip. And they're faster because of it. Peace... Sridhar From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Sep 5 13:43:45 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <20010905170834.COPH27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <15254.22948.814935.121756@phaduka.neurotica.com> <20010905170834.COPH27547.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010905134345.I6681@mrbill.net> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:14:44PM +0000, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Is there's ones still in production or what is another equally GOOD > one that replaces tulip based NICs? I can get tulip-driver-compatible 10/100baseT PCI cards that work good with pretty much any x86-based OS for $15 new, all day long... I'll take a $15 Tulip-or-compatible based card over some $100 3Com POS all day long. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From kstumpf at unusual.on.ca Wed Sep 5 13:44:01 2001 From: kstumpf at unusual.on.ca (Kevin Stumpf/Nostalgic Technophile/Unusual Systems) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467029@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <000601c1363a$bc1e7400$b3b9e2d1@kstumpf> In 1998 the book, A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: History, Technique, and Practice was published. An abridged edition is now available at: www.unusual.on.ca/guidecollectcomputer Your comments are invited as are any hints where I might find a complete 370/165 or 168. I'm forever hoping. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf - The Nostalgic Technophile - Unusual Systems www.nostalgictechnophile.com - 519.744.2900 EST/EDT (GMT - 5) From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 5 16:44:48 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. In-Reply-To: <000601c1363a$bc1e7400$b3b9e2d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Kevin Stumpf/Nostalgic Technophile/Unusual Systems wrote: > In 1998 the book, A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: > History, Technique, and Practice was published. An abridged edition is now > available at: www.unusual.on.ca/guidecollectcomputer > > Your comments are invited as are any hints where I might find a complete > 370/165 or 168. I'm forever hoping. What kind of systems are these? I will keep my eyes open. If you are talking IBM big-iron, that can be arranged. *evil grin* Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 5 17:11:14 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: This week's scores. Message-ID: This has been a good week. If all continues to go well, I will have procured the following hardware for the use of my buttocks: VAX 7000-610 VAX 6000-610 VAX 8700 (hopefully to eventually become n 8800) 2 VAX 4000/700A's 4 Partial VAX 4000/500's (Need chassis/backplanes) DECserver 700 VT340 (yay! finally! thanks, dave!) IBM S/390 G1 IBM 3990 ESCON-attached DASD controller IBM Shark RAMAC 2TB DASD Server IBM 5155 Portable Personal Computer Apple //e w/1 Drive SGI Onyx RealityEngine2 SGI IrisVision Microchannel (!) DPT EISA Caching SCSI EISA 10/100 Ethernet 2 Kingston MCA RAM Expansion Boards Plus I got to hang out with Dave McGuire, Brian Hechinger, Brian's daughter Avalon, Jeff Hellige, and a bunch of other random cool people. Pretty good week, I think. Peace... Sridhar From norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com Wed Sep 5 16:04:35 2001 From: norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com (Norm Aleks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: removing a Kennedy tape drive from its rack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 4 Sep 2001 I wrote: > Brian Knittel and I have acquired a Kennedy vacuum-column tape drive > [...] on rails and rack-mounted, and [...] the way to remove it from > the rack is not obvious. [...] Can anyone tell us how to get it out? We figured this out after a few scary moments (i.e. "Will this fall on the floor in the next couple of minutes? Let's find out!") -- if anyone else ever needs to know, write us! Thanks, Norm Aleks From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 17:15:50 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. In-Reply-To: Re: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. (Absurdly Obtuse) References: <000601c1363a$bc1e7400$b3b9e2d1@kstumpf> Message-ID: <15254.42006.484465.970613@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 5, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > In 1998 the book, A Guide to Collecting Computers and Computer Collectibles: > > History, Technique, and Practice was published. An abridged edition is now > > available at: www.unusual.on.ca/guidecollectcomputer > > > > Your comments are invited as are any hints where I might find a complete > > 370/165 or 168. I'm forever hoping. > > What kind of systems are these? I will keep my eyes open. If you are > talking IBM big-iron, that can be arranged. *evil grin* I saw a 370/168 once. I'd swear it was the single largest computer I've ever seen. The building it was in had a disk drive *floor*. I had to use bleach on that underwear. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From gugler at agames.com Wed Sep 5 17:36:25 2001 From: gugler at agames.com (Sean Gugler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3B96A8E9.46A48881@agames.com> Thanks, dq. I have seen that doc, but it speaks mainly of the 3.5 drive, which had several enhancements not available on the 5.25 drive. Was the Apple ][ controller sufficiently similar to the IIgs and progeny that this documentation is appropriate for it also? I've never heard the Apple ][ controller chip referred to as 'IWM' -- is that my ignorance, or was the chip renamed, or are they (maybe slightly) different beasts? - Sean Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > > summarize from the mighty tome for me? > > From: > http://www.mac.linux-m68k.org/devel/iwm.php > > : ======================= > : Accessing IWM Registers > : ======================= > : The IWM chip has several internal registers available to programs. > : Access to these registers is controlled by the Q6 and Q7 switches. > : > : +=====+=====+=======================================+ > : | Q6 | Q7 | Register | > : +=====+=====+=======================================+ > : | off | off | Read data register | > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > : | off | on | Read handshake register | > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > : | on | off | Read status register | > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > : | on | on | Write mode register (if drive is off) | > : | | | data register (if drive is on) | > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > : > : The mode register is a write-only register containing several flag bits > : which control various features if the IWM. To access it, turn off the > : drive (by accessing ENABLE), turn on Q6 and Q7, and write to any > : odd-numbered address in the $C0E0...$C0EF range. > > hth, > -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 16:48:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: <3B95C230.3D8C7896@agames.com> from "Sean Gugler" at Sep 4, 1 11:12:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 975 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/55d3d3dd/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:04:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: from "Matt London" at Sep 5, 1 02:07:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1004 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/106e87e4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 16:41:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Curricula (was: Assembly vs. Everything Else In-Reply-To: <3B958B3B.63538A64@idirect.com> from "Jerome Fine" at Sep 4, 1 10:17:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2354 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/452c860c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:31:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: VAX 4000 Power Cord (BA440) In-Reply-To: from "Matt London" at Sep 5, 1 02:59:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1169 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010905/cddcaa81/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 5 17:59:17 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Fwd: Encompass' Update on HP-Compaq Merger Message-ID: Forwarded for those that may not get the Encompass newsletter and who might be interested in their plans. Jeff >Status: U >From: Encompass >To: "'jhellige@earthlink.net'" >Subject: Encompass' Update on HP-Compaq Merger >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:08:04 -0500 > > > > >Dear Jeff > >It is with confidence that I write to assure you of Encompass'continued >commitment to serve the needs of our membership in the wake of the announced >merger of Compaq with Hewlett-Packard. Through our strong partnership with >Compaq, Encompass is uniquely positioned to be your advocate on the Itanium >Platform conversion and to work closely with Compaq's senior management team >as plans regarding this proposed union unfold. > >For those who remember the acquisition of Digital by Compaq, these recent >events must seem like deja vu. But while times have changed, our commitment >to deliver forthright information as quickly as possible has not. We are >poised and ready to offer Hewlett-Packard and Compaq recommendations on how >to make the merger beneficial for you, a valuable segment of their existing, >installed customer base. > >Should the merger become realized it would create a new global technology >leader and untold opportunities for Encompass, our Enterprise Computing >Association. Compaq's recent decision to migrate all enterprise level >systems to IPF, coupled with Hewlett-Packard's standing commitment to the >platform will position the newly-formed powerhouse to drive IPF as the "next >core platform" for IT. As such, this will ultimately provide us, the >end-customers of the new company with new levels of stability and >application/solution availability more so than ever before. > >We originally banded together forty years ago as users of Digital Equipment >Corporation computers and then a year ago had the foresight to evolve into >Encompass, an Enterprise Computing Association. Our ability to adapt to the >ever-changing conditions of the information technology industry is one of >the core reasons that our organization has remained vital for so long. Now >as Encompass, it is our mission to help you and your organization be more >successful by providing an open, objective knowledge exchange network. While >the players may change, our guiding principle of meeting your needs remains >unaffected. > >Encompass will work tirelessly to share your concerns with Compaq and >Hewlett-Packard, to provide on-going information about how this merger may >affect you, and to make this newest transition successful for all of us. We >appreciate your continued support in these revolutionary times. > >Sincerely, >Joe Pollizzi >President >Encompass -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 5 18:12:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: This week's scores. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > IBM S/390 G1 > > IBM Shark RAMAC 2TB DASD Server > > SGI Onyx RealityEngine2 > > SGI IrisVision Microchannel (!) > > > > Plus I got to hang out with Dave McGuire, Brian Hechinger, Brian's > > daughter Avalon, Jeff Hellige, and a bunch of other random cool people. > > > > Pretty good week, I think. > > Holy schultz! I should say so! > > How'd you manage that? Well, I spent a crapload of money, and I am driving down to Florida this weekend. 8-) It's ALL going to be worth it. Oh yes, it is. *evil grin* Peace... Sridhar From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 5 18:11:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: This week's scores. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >This has been a good week. If all continues to go well, I will have >procured the following hardware for the use of my buttocks: > >VAX 7000-610 >VAX 6000-610 >VAX 8700 (hopefully to eventually become n 8800) >2 VAX 4000/700A's >4 Partial VAX 4000/500's (Need chassis/backplanes) >DECserver 700 >VT340 (yay! finally! thanks, dave!) >IBM S/390 G1 >IBM 3990 ESCON-attached DASD controller >IBM Shark RAMAC 2TB DASD Server >IBM 5155 Portable Personal Computer >Apple //e w/1 Drive >SGI Onyx RealityEngine2 >SGI IrisVision Microchannel (!) >DPT EISA Caching SCSI >EISA 10/100 Ethernet >2 Kingston MCA RAM Expansion Boards > >Plus I got to hang out with Dave McGuire, Brian Hechinger, Brian's >daughter Avalon, Jeff Hellige, and a bunch of other random cool people. > >Pretty good week, I think. > >Peace... Sridhar Now, I know all of that didn't go back with you in your Camry?! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Wed Sep 5 19:05:03 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: from Matt London at "Sep 5, 1 02:07:49 pm" Message-ID: <200109060005.RAA08834@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > A friend of mine tells of a friend of his who's HDD was a little noisy > when doings seeks - so he used to play tunes with that. There is actually an entire music package system for the C64's disk drives that plays music by smacking the drive heads around. You can even compose much with it. Natch, this works poorly on emulators. ;-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- When you're in love, the whole world is German! -- "Hogan's Heroes" -------- From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 5 20:06:37 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > I've just pulled out my copy of 'Beneath Apple DOS', and the > information you need doesn't seem to be in there. There's very little > about the disk hardware at all -- it assumes you'll at least use the > standard routines to read/write bytes on the disk. The info that Sean is looking for is in the Apple ][ DOS manual. I have a dozen or more spare copies of that manual. If Sean will e-mail me privately then I'll get one in the mail to him. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1179.monmouth.com Wed Sep 5 20:28:01 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1179.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Merger -- Compaq and HP Message-ID: <200109060128.f861S1J17044@bg-tc-ppp1179.monmouth.com> > Forwarded for those that may not get the Encompass newsletter > and who might be interested in their plans. > > Jeff Another follow up. > > > Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec,alt.folklore.computers > Subject: HP Compaq merger, here we go again. > Summary: Y W8 4 HP > Followup-To: > Distribution: > Organization: Lakewood MicroSystems > Keywords: > Cc: My wife just handed me a pair of Unix Expo Digital Equipment key chains. Don't know if I ought to EBay 'em for quick cash. Maybe a PII or PIII for my new motherboard. The logo d|i|gi|t|a|l in maroon (yeah it's the reworked logo not the good old blue and white). The standard green UNIX license plate and Live Free Or Die. (New Hampshire) The other side a California (The Migration State) plate with the letters Y W8 4 HP. Damned if this wasn't prescient. Why Wait For HP --- cause Palmer, Pfeifer, Capellas and Compaq made a big mess of it. I'm not sure Carly will do any better. My judgement on Lucent/AT&T managers is they aren't much better than Compaq's whiz types. Bill Pechter Ex DEC, Ex-Concurrent, Ex-Alliant, Ex-IBM, recently Ex Lucent, Proabably Ex-Computer Hardware Industry for life Digital Had It Then, Don't you wish you could still buy it NOW! -- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 5 20:33:50 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <002d01c135c8$3e662f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <20010905040847.HAGU19588.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <002d01c135c8$3e662f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >I could be mistaken about this, but IIRC, a risky bet, but ... >wasn't the ZX80 a ><$50 proposition back in the '80's and the '81 slightly less, on the order of >$29.95? Actually the Zebra price is right inline with what one could buy an assembled TS-1000 for in '82. I remember the advertisements for it showing a price right at $100. I can't see them dropping the price for the unassembled kit that much though, but I don't remember what the price for the kit was when it was new. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 20:18:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Sep 5, 1 06:06:37 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 551 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010906/cd355e62/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 5 20:49:44 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <002d01c135c8$3e662f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <20010905040847.HAGU19588.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <002d01c135c8$3e662f20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >I could be mistaken about this, but IIRC, a risky bet, but ... >wasn't the ZX80 a ><$50 proposition back in the '80's and the '81 slightly less, on the order of >$29.95? Ooops..I spoke too soon with my last message. I found an advertisement in the back of 'Syntax ZX80' dated May 1982, showing the assembled ZX-81 for $149.95 and the kit for $99.95. The kits were dropped when Timex introduced the TS-1000 later in the year at the same price, but for the assembled units. There's a pre-announcement of the TS-1000 in the same issue, stating it's shipping date as 4th quarter of 1982. I'm sure later clearance sales, especially after Timex got out of the computer business, dropped the price considerably. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From gugler at agames.com Wed Sep 5 21:01:17 2001 From: gugler at agames.com (Sean Gugler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine References: Message-ID: <3B96D8ED.C68FC1A7@agames.com> Tony, thanks for checking on this! "Beneath Apple ProDOS" is probably what I want, then. I've never seen either book, but I heard the second offered some recap and some fresh material that was also useful to DOS 3.3 -- possibly the state machine flowchart was among the fresh material, not recap. Cheers, - Sean -- Sean Gugler ("Dr. Guz") guz@doctor.com "This quote's just six words long." Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > > summarize from the mighty tome for me? > > I've just pulled out my copy of 'Beneath Apple DOS', and the information > you need doesn't seem to be in there. There's very little about the disk > hardware at all -- it assumes you'll at least use the standard routines > to read/write bytes on the disk. > > >From the schematics in the Apple DOS manual, it appears that Q7 is > inverted and turned into the write gate/ line to the disk drive. So > presumanly Q7 is a write enable input (it does also go to the state > machine PROM and I guess it sets up the state machine for writing). > > Q6 only goes to the state machine, so I have no idea what it's for (I've > not analysed the state machine -- yet!) > > -tony From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 5 21:09:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: This week's scores. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Now, I know all of that didn't go back with you in your Camry?! > > Jeff Hehehe. No. Some of it is coming in a rather large truck. Peace... Sridhar From curt at atari-history.com Wed Sep 5 21:17:55 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256ED@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <3B96A8E9.46A48881@agames.com> Message-ID: <000c01c1367a$23bacfc0$c2609040@syzygy2> IWM refers to the "Integrated Woz Machine" if I remember correctly (I'm an Atari Historian, not an Apple Historian) Tom Owad could probably answer more correctly. Apple did a wonderful job at making a system not only flexible and efficient for disk drive access for a personal computer, but made it cheap, really unlocking the ability for the average user to finally have a decent storage medium that was fast and reliable. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Gugler" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Apple ][ disk controller state machine > Thanks, dq. I have seen that doc, but it speaks mainly of the > 3.5 drive, which had several enhancements not available on the > 5.25 drive. Was the Apple ][ controller sufficiently similar to > the IIgs and progeny that this documentation is appropriate for > it also? I've never heard the Apple ][ controller chip referred > to as 'IWM' -- is that my ignorance, or was the chip renamed, or > are they (maybe slightly) different beasts? > > - Sean > > > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > > > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > > > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > > > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > > > summarize from the mighty tome for me? > > > > From: > > http://www.mac.linux-m68k.org/devel/iwm.php > > > > : ======================= > > : Accessing IWM Registers > > : ======================= > > : The IWM chip has several internal registers available to programs. > > : Access to these registers is controlled by the Q6 and Q7 switches. > > : > > : +=====+=====+=======================================+ > > : | Q6 | Q7 | Register | > > : +=====+=====+=======================================+ > > : | off | off | Read data register | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : | off | on | Read handshake register | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : | on | off | Read status register | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : | on | on | Write mode register (if drive is off) | > > : | | | data register (if drive is on) | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : > > : The mode register is a write-only register containing several flag bits > > : which control various features if the IWM. To access it, turn off the > > : drive (by accessing ENABLE), turn on Q6 and Q7, and write to any > > : odd-numbered address in the $C0E0...$C0EF range. > > > > hth, > > -dq From chobbs at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 5 21:32:03 2001 From: chobbs at socal.rr.com (charles hobbs) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Atari find References: <200109051142.GAA40479@opal.tseinc.com> <172209953517.20010905091743@mypad.com> Message-ID: <3B96E023.FC93817E@socal.rr.com> division by zero wrote: > > At the last TRW swapmeet in So. Cal, I picked up a couple of Atari > > XE130's for $5 each. The seller said he had pulled them out of a > > school computer lab. No power supplies, but a quick trip to Ebay fixed > > that... > > Haha, I bet you ended up paying twice that for the PSU's. ^_^ No, the PSU (one only) cost $5, plus $5 shipping = 10 (The actual shipping cost was about $1-2 more, so he actually ate some of the shipping cost. Burp...) > > > > So I connect one of them to my TV, and flip on the power switch. The > > console LED turned on, and the TV screen went black. That's it. > > Uh-oh... > > [...] > > No, really, the first thing you ought to do is open it up and make > sure there aren't any burnt up or leaking caps, or other visible signs > of damage to the board. Then, swap any socketed chips you find with > the 'good' ones from the other machine. Be sure to swap them back > individually after testing, nothing worse than complicating an already > complicated problem. I don't know if the Atari kit has any trouble > chips like the PLA in the C64. I have two 130XE's myself that I've > never had any problems with. If there aren't any socketed chips, > an easy chip test is to power the machine up, wait about 30 seconds, > and put your finger on the top of each of the "big" chips. If any one > of them is already hot, it's probably shorted and a good candidate for > socketing and swapping. Test the RAM chips in the same way, with your > finger or other heat-sensitive probe. I might play around with it, but since I have a working one already, it's not a big deal. Maybe someone around here could use it for parts... From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 5 21:51:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine References: Message-ID: <002701c1367e$dff8faa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure I can lay hands on the original Apple DOS manual right away, but I do have a digital simulator that's capable of simulating a PROM, though I've never used that feature, and perhaps I can whip up a simulation that will properly illustrate how the prom map and external hardware interact with a data stream. Presumably if I can get the matter to work on writes, I can then reverse the process. Having once done that, I should be able to regenerate the state machine in a PAL or other device, including, perahaps, some 'C' code to interpret the modulation into raw data under PC control. A detailed simulation is a pretty good way to examine the behavior of a circuit, and certainly easier than doing the same thing with a 'scope and/or logic analyzer. At the time that WOZ designed this piece of hardware, registered proms were much less costly than equivalent PALs, and PALs had, associated with them, a considerable failure rate in testing. Apple did, after all, expect to inspect their parts as they came in and before they went out. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: Re: Apple ][ disk controller state machine > > > > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > > summarize from the mighty tome for me? > > > I've just pulled out my copy of 'Beneath Apple DOS', and the information > you need doesn't seem to be in there. There's very little about the disk > hardware at all -- it assumes you'll at least use the standard routines > to read/write bytes on the disk. > > From the schematics in the Apple DOS manual, it appears that Q7 is > inverted and turned into the write gate/ line to the disk drive. So > presumanly Q7 is a write enable input (it does also go to the state > machine PROM and I guess it sets up the state machine for writing). > > Q6 only goes to the state machine, so I have no idea what it's for (I've > not analysed the state machine -- yet!) > > -tony > > From cbajpai at mediaone.net Wed Sep 5 21:53:04 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: <000c01c1367a$23bacfc0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: Another good source of information on the IWM is the patent issued to Wozniak. Go to Delphion.com and you should be able to dig up the patent and order a .pdf of it for $3.00 I'm also curious on the state machine and the GCR encoding techniques it used. Please share your findings with us. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Curt Vendel Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 10:18 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Cc: gugler@agames.com Subject: Re: Apple ][ disk controller state machine IWM refers to the "Integrated Woz Machine" if I remember correctly (I'm an Atari Historian, not an Apple Historian) Tom Owad could probably answer more correctly. Apple did a wonderful job at making a system not only flexible and efficient for disk drive access for a personal computer, but made it cheap, really unlocking the ability for the average user to finally have a decent storage medium that was fast and reliable. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Gugler" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 6:36 PM Subject: Re: Apple ][ disk controller state machine > Thanks, dq. I have seen that doc, but it speaks mainly of the > 3.5 drive, which had several enhancements not available on the > 5.25 drive. Was the Apple ][ controller sufficiently similar to > the IIgs and progeny that this documentation is appropriate for > it also? I've never heard the Apple ][ controller chip referred > to as 'IWM' -- is that my ignorance, or was the chip renamed, or > are they (maybe slightly) different beasts? > > - Sean > > > Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > > > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > > > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > > > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > > > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > > > summarize from the mighty tome for me? > > > > From: > > http://www.mac.linux-m68k.org/devel/iwm.php > > > > : ======================= > > : Accessing IWM Registers > > : ======================= > > : The IWM chip has several internal registers available to programs. > > : Access to these registers is controlled by the Q6 and Q7 switches. > > : > > : +=====+=====+=======================================+ > > : | Q6 | Q7 | Register | > > : +=====+=====+=======================================+ > > : | off | off | Read data register | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : | off | on | Read handshake register | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : | on | off | Read status register | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : | on | on | Write mode register (if drive is off) | > > : | | | data register (if drive is on) | > > : +-----+-----+---------------------------------------+ > > : > > : The mode register is a write-only register containing several flag bits > > : which control various features if the IWM. To access it, turn off the > > : drive (by accessing ENABLE), turn on Q6 and Q7, and write to any > > : odd-numbered address in the $C0E0...$C0EF range. > > > > hth, > > -dq From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 5 21:56:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine References: <3B96D8ED.C68FC1A7@agames.com> Message-ID: <003f01c1367f$774a7780$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It's likely the patent will reveal whatever characteristics you're looking to find. The modulation scheme is the only really valid claim that there is in that patent, though the integration of some of the controller logic onto the drive itself, and vice versa, is an innovation in the level of integration of FDD drive/controller interfaces of the time. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Gugler" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 8:01 PM Subject: Re: Apple ][ disk controller state machine > Tony, thanks for checking on this! > > "Beneath Apple ProDOS" is probably what I want, then. I've never seen > either book, but I heard the second offered some recap and some fresh > material that was also useful to DOS 3.3 -- possibly the state machine > flowchart was among the fresh material, not recap. > > Cheers, > - Sean > -- > Sean Gugler ("Dr. Guz") guz@doctor.com > "This quote's just six words long." > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > Until I get my hands on a copy of the venerable "Beneath Apple Dos" > > > is there anyone who can point me to an online resource describing the > > > Apple ][ disk controller P6 ROM state machine? The exact uses > > > for the Q6 and Q7 switches ($C0EC-$C0EF)? Or would be willing to > > > summarize from the mighty tome for me? > > > > I've just pulled out my copy of 'Beneath Apple DOS', and the information > > you need doesn't seem to be in there. There's very little about the disk > > hardware at all -- it assumes you'll at least use the standard routines > > to read/write bytes on the disk. > > > > >From the schematics in the Apple DOS manual, it appears that Q7 is > > inverted and turned into the write gate/ line to the disk drive. So > > presumanly Q7 is a write enable input (it does also go to the state > > machine PROM and I guess it sets up the state machine for writing). > > > > Q6 only goes to the state machine, so I have no idea what it's for (I've > > not analysed the state machine -- yet!) > > > > -tony > > From louiss at gate.net Wed Sep 5 22:06:30 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.1.20010809110132.00aa66e0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <200109060306.XAA31176@barry.mail.mindspring.net> I assume this is on for Saturday, September 15, as previously announced. Have announcements been placed in the appropriate usenet groups? We certainly want to let all those who might be interested know about this get together! Louis From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 5 22:33:38 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Russ Blakeman > I wonder if HP will absorb Compaq and totally do away with them or still run > them as an independantly named subsidiary. PC-wise, I hope they just sort of do away with each other. IMHO, the current HP and Compaq lines represent the lowest point in mass-produced boxes. As bad as E-Machines and Packard Bells. Additionally, obtaining the drivers (when the customer has lost the restore disk) can be impossible, and when it *is* possible I'm often looking at a 15 MB download for the video and 11 MB more for sound. This is grotesque -- crappy, proprietary hardware running bloated software. It's a wonder people put up with it. Perhaps they won't anymore. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 5 22:40:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Central Florida Computer Junk Fest ! Message-ID: <20010906034218.VUIZ15735.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Louis Schulman > I assume this is on for Saturday, September 15, as previously announced. Have announcements been > placed in the appropriate usenet groups? We certainly want to let all those who might be interested know > about this get together! Louis, the CFCJF is absolutely on! I have posted notices in about a dozen usenet groups and have had a few inquiries. As always, the more the merrier so if you know some places where you can spread the word please do so. We might not have a big crowd the first time, but if everyone has fun and word gets out we might be able to do this once or twice every year. See ya there! Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 5 23:02:42 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <20010906040420.WDYO15735.imf02bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Richard Erlacher > I could be mistaken about this, but IIRC, a risky bet, but ... wasn't the ZX80 a > <$50 proposition back in the '80's and the '81 slightly less, on the order of > $29.95? The ZX80 kits originally sold for 199 British Pounds in 1980 (about US$400 at that time). The ZX81 was advertised in Scientific American in 1981 for $99 (the assembled version was $149). By '84 the ZX80s were pretty much gone and the '81s were at the $29.95 level you mention. Glen 0/0 From dan at ekoan.com Wed Sep 5 23:11:04 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Regarding unbuilt computer kits Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906000910.02cf0ec0@enigma> I have a lead on an unbuilt Heathkit H-89 computer that is still in the original shipping carton (the smaller boxes inside are still factory sealed), along with two CRTs. I know Tony would recommend I buy it and build it, but what would a fair price be for such an item? A bit off-topic, but I'm also looking for Heathkit manuals for the IC-2008A (desk calculator), GC-1005 (digital clock), and ID-1390A (digital thermometer). I recently acquired each of these devices but they're all showing erratic behavior of one sort or another. Any ideas where to find these manuals, preferably cheaply? I've found w7fg's web site, but are there other sources? Cheers, Dan http://www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 5 23:13:26 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <20010906041504.QNSF22059.imf16bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Adrian Vickers > No, a pair of ZX81 kits went through recently (although a search no longer > shows them, irritatingly) for daft money. OTOH, when a built one can fetch > ?200+.... I suspect that was just a mad bidder moment however. Hmm. I guess this means I'm rich ;>) I have a ton of this stuff here, and have not been watching Ebay enough. > I wonder if Zebra do a bulk discount; it strikes me that one could buy a > load, then sell them in the UK for easy money... Someone already bought a bunch and brought them into the UK but by the time he paid the freight and customs he had to sell the kits for UKP 90. I'm not sure how he made out on the deal . . . also, the ZX81/Spectrum crowd in the UK would never pay this sort of money. Check comp.sys.sinclair. Glen 0/0 From percy_mistry at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 02:35:46 2001 From: percy_mistry at yahoo.com (Percy J. Mistry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Mouse Systems mouse driver Message-ID: <003f01c136a6$8b328720$6401a8c0@piii800mhz> Hi Everyone...I recently inherited a PenMate Tablet made by Mouse Systems and would like to know if anyone can email me a copy of the driver floppy which came with it and or even tell me the voltage since it is missing the driver floppy and power adaptor! :-) Thanks in advance! -Percy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010906/4feed2ab/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Sep 6 00:17:45 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: I never have a problem with the business line of HP PCs' (Kayak, Brio and Vectra) - the Pavilion line keeps me going with warranty repairs at $65 per inshop repair and $30 per "exchange unit". I only get one of every 50 or 60 owners that have the Compaq owner's attitude about HP's machines. I personally wouldn't buy one due to the proprietary nature of the mainboards, cases, power supplies and other hardware. I can get ATX 250 watt clone power supplies all day at $25 each but certain Pavillion supplies can cost up to $100 each. If you contact customer support at HP they can either ship a free restore set if it's under warranty and you tell them it's there but not loading. If you've lost it, in or out of warranty, they can sell you a replacemant if you supply the unit serial number. Packard Bell wasn't bad near the end of their reign of terror. They got real too late and were already on a downward spiral fast towards earth. I don't know why anyone feels the HP restore is bloated...it's all MicroSteal for the most part. All windows 98, NT, ME and 2k stuff is huge and you need a broadband connection to download it. I just popped $20 for the Win NT 4.0 service pack 6.0a rather than sit for 2 days downloading it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin -> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 10:34 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: HP & Compaq -> -> -> > From: Russ Blakeman -> -> > I wonder if HP will absorb Compaq and totally do away with -> them or still -> run -> > them as an independantly named subsidiary. -> -> PC-wise, I hope they just sort of do away with each other. IMHO, the -> current HP and Compaq lines represent the lowest point in mass-produced -> boxes. As bad as E-Machines and Packard Bells. Additionally, obtaining -> the drivers (when the customer has lost the restore disk) can be -> impossible, and when it *is* possible I'm often looking at a 15 -> MB download -> for the video and 11 MB more for sound. -> -> This is grotesque -- crappy, proprietary hardware running -> bloated software. -> It's a wonder people put up with it. Perhaps they won't anymore. -> -> Glen -> 0/0 -> -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Sep 6 04:42:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> References: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: >This is grotesque -- crappy, proprietary hardware running bloated software. > It's a wonder people put up with it. Perhaps they won't anymore. As has been shown over and over, the masses put up with a lot of things that an individual would otherwise turn away from and refuse. It's kind of interesting to note that at this point, PC brand names mean very little and there's little to no brand loyalty. Makes sense since there is little difference from one to the other. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Thu Sep 6 06:41:28 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:04:53 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > > > I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders > > > are on-topic :-) > While it is possible to use such machines to store programs from most > home computers, I don't think many people did. I did! I hooked up my Akai 4000DS reel-to-reel (transistor, not valve) to my Compukit UK101. The idea was to try to record faster by using higher freqencies and a higher baud rate -- and a higher tape speed, 7 1/2 ips. > Somebody actually told me > the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape > recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't > believe it won't work). > -tony As far as I can see, anything that'll record and play back audio should work on a cassette port. So a reel-to-reel machine should be fine, as should, say 45rpm vinyl records. Didn't one of the Elektor machines use 45s for software distribution? Wasn't there once a music CD with software on one track (for a Spectrum?)? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 6 07:20:49 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have Intel logos > > on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may have been a > > nightmare or something. ;) > > Those el-cheapo Linksys cards that I like because the newer ones rarely > fail on me and when they do they are cheap to replace, are Tulip. And > they're faster because of it. I hope you don't mean the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX cards... they are *way* too sensitive to noisy LANs... I've had to pull several and replace them with either Intel Pro/100 adapters, or drop back to some old 3Com 3c509 10Mbps combo cards... Of course, YMMV, etc... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 6 07:25:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256F4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Thanks, dq. I have seen that doc, but it speaks mainly of the > 3.5 drive, which had several enhancements not available on the > 5.25 drive. Was the Apple ][ controller sufficiently similar to > the IIgs and progeny that this documentation is appropriate for > it also? I've never heard the Apple ][ controller chip referred > to as 'IWM' -- is that my ignorance, or was the chip renamed, or > are they (maybe slightly) different beasts? It's my understanding that the single-chip Integrated WOZ Machine replaced and duplicated the function of the discrete-component-based equivalent on the Apple II family... FWIW, the Lisa 1 and the very first non-production Macs used a strange 5.25 inch floppy known as the Twiggy Drive... I can show you photos of Macs that had been retrofitted for the 3.5 inch drives, but those drives are visible through huge 5.25 inch gaping holes... So while I can't say with certainty, I doubt the original circuit has any capability not duplicated in the IWM chips. Regards, -dq From sstratford at mbbc.edu Thu Sep 6 08:05:35 2001 From: sstratford at mbbc.edu (Steven J. Stratford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: Olivetti ETX II Message-ID: Hi I'm new to the list. How might I go about locating a keyboard for an Olivetti ETX II? Please CC me I'm on the digest. --Steve From chomko at greenbelt.com Thu Sep 6 08:47:51 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3B977E87.EEDF1556@greenbelt.com> Reminds me of a time a few years ago when I asked a store owner which machines (Wintel) were the best. His answer, "mine!" Hard to argue. As if some was to ask me the same right now, I'd answer in kind. I suppose that it's a Gestalt thing, being that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That does indeed indicate that the best machines come from the best parts, but not necessarily. Eric Jeff Hellige wrote: > >This is grotesque -- crappy, proprietary hardware running bloated software. > > It's a wonder people put up with it. Perhaps they won't anymore. > > As has been shown over and over, the masses put up with a lot > of things that an individual would otherwise turn away from and > refuse. It's kind of interesting to note that at this point, PC > brand names mean very little and there's little to no brand loyalty. > Makes sense since there is little difference from one to the other. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Sep 6 08:52:33 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:17 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Sounds like you need to think about using STP shielded cabling if you have that much noise on the LAN. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:21 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> -> -> > > They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have -> Intel logos -> > > on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may -> have been a -> > > nightmare or something. ;) -> > -> > Those el-cheapo Linksys cards that I like because the newer ones rarely -> > fail on me and when they do they are cheap to replace, are Tulip. And -> > they're faster because of it. -> -> I hope you don't mean the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX cards... they are -> *way* too sensitive to noisy LANs... I've had to pull several and replace -> them with either Intel Pro/100 adapters, or drop back to some old 3Com -> 3c509 10Mbps combo cards... Of course, YMMV, etc... -> -> -dq -> From dan at ekoan.com Wed Sep 5 23:21:47 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Eldon Hall's book "Journey to the Moon" Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906001119.02ccbe10@enigma> Unfortunately I missed VCF East, but does anyone who attended have a lead on where I could purchase a signed copy of Eldon Hall's book "Journey to the Moon"? An autographed copy would be great, but even unsigned would be fine. Thanks! Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From vance at ikickass.org Thu Sep 6 09:18:30 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256F3@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I hope you don't mean the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX cards... they are > *way* too sensitive to noisy LANs... I've had to pull several and replace > them with either Intel Pro/100 adapters, or drop back to some old 3Com > 3c509 10Mbps combo cards... Of course, YMMV, etc... Actually, I am referring specifically to the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX Revision four and higher cards. The older ones are garbage. Peace... Sridhar From zmerch at 30below.com Thu Sep 6 09:54:20 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 Revisited... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010906105420.01181ec0@mail.30below.com> Otay... I haz pix... Here's what a CoCo Xpndr1 looks like: (warning, pictures might be kinda big ~~ 100k-ish) http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/xpndr1/xpndr1-top.jpg http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/xpndr1/xpndr1-bottom.jpg The scans aren't the greatest as I had no black paper at the time to reduce the translucency of the board... but it'll give y'all a much better idea as to what it is... Now, the first thing I'm going to do is put on a 74LS245 bus transceiver on the data lines, and a pair of 74LS244's to buffer the address lines... right? Could I also use a LS244 to buffer E & Q? I wouldn't think that shottky parts would impart much noise on a 1Mhz signal... I also plan on adding: A jumper/switch to enable the CART signal easily, A row of jumpers to easily enable multiple address decoding (along with the associated NOR's, NAND's & a well-placed 74LS138...) and methinks that'll fill out "round 1" of the Merchalizer expansion board. (No, I'm not really going to call it that. ;-) Later on, I'd like to make an expanded version with 1 or 2 integrated 16550's and a couple A/D's already addressed in... The board is *already* a lot different than what you see in the pictures, with the addition of both a "hard-drive" PC power connector & a floppy-type PC power connector, with a power LED for the external power supply & it's jumper selectable whether or not you wish to use the CoCo's available power from the cartridge port, or the external power supply. By the time the AutoCad file hits my website, there will be no resemblance whatsoever, and all the card will be is what it was to begin with: inspiration to make an experimenter card "far beyond" (and IMHO much more useful) anything else I'd seen floating around... And -- the practice playing with chips that I get far too little time to do! Anyway, dat's da stuff! Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From emu at ecubics.com Thu Sep 6 10:16:08 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: denver area members References: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B977E87.EEDF1556@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: <3B979338.E55AEA10@ecubics.com> Hi, Who else on this list is in the denver area ? cheers From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Thu Sep 6 10:55:15 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: Extraneous uses of computers systems. In the same vein somewhere between 1974-1976 one of our systems guys used to backup the RP04's on our PDP11/50 to 9-track tape. He would go to sleep on a mat next to the system. When the backup finished he would then run a program that would perform a series of head seeks that resulted in a shaking of the drive and the floor next to the drive. Very expensive alarm clock. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From rbyrnes at pacbell.net Thu Sep 6 10:59:47 2001 From: rbyrnes at pacbell.net (Robert Byrnes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: find... help Message-ID: <3B979D73.8C8C585A@pacbell.net> I saw your message from 1998 about Scanjet interface cards and wonder if you still have them. If so which cards and how much? Bob Byrnes From wpfulmor at dimensional.com Thu Sep 6 11:15:27 2001 From: wpfulmor at dimensional.com (William Fulmor) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: denver area members In-Reply-To: <3B979338.E55AEA10@ecubics.com> Message-ID: Here. Bill On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > Who else on this list is in the denver area ? > > cheers > From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Thu Sep 6 11:25:55 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: denver area members References: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B977E87.EEDF1556@greenbelt.com> <3B979338.E55AEA10@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <01ff01c136f0$9b0f32c0$0100a8c0@dellhare> Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. SimuLogics Data General Nova, Eclipse, MV and lookalikes. (Also DEC and other legacy systems [60s and 70s era] being added to web site every day!) Novas are forever... www.SimuLogics.com or www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:16 AM Subject: denver area members > Hi, > Who else on this list is in the denver area ? > > cheers From celt at chisp.net Thu Sep 6 11:38:27 2001 From: celt at chisp.net (Michael Maginnis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: denver area members References: <20010906033518.VZHX20213.imf08bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3B977E87.EEDF1556@greenbelt.com> <3B979338.E55AEA10@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <3B97A683.1090201@chisp.net> emanuel stiebler wrote: > Hi, > Who else on this list is in the denver area ? > > cheers > > I am. Mike Maginnis From vcf at vintage.org Thu Sep 6 11:53:11 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Interview on Todd Mundt show Message-ID: I don't know if anyone caught this but I did an interview on the Todd Mundt show about a week or so ago: Here is the Real Audio archive: http://www.toddshow.org/ram/tmshow0905.ram My interview starts at about the 28 minute mark. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 6 12:12:55 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: find... help Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146703C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> You need interface cards for the b&w HP Sacnjets flatbed? I might have one in my basement, with the two HP Scanjets. I'll have to look tonight... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Robert Byrnes [mailto:rbyrnes@pacbell.net] ! Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:00 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: find... help ! ! ! I saw your message from 1998 about Scanjet interface cards ! and wonder if ! you still have them. If so which cards and how much? ! Bob Byrnes ! From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 6 12:15:03 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq SmartStart CDs? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906121218.02d8c4e0@pc> Off-topic, at least as much as an HP/Compaq merger... I picked up a pair of Compaq ProLiant 7000 servers at a great price. Up to four PPro 200s, 12 sleds, rack mount. They've been scrubbed and I need any version of the Compaq SmartStart CDs that'll let me reboot and reconfigure the systems to see how well they work. These CDs are $50 on eBay, but that's probably people selling their old sets. I'm hoping someone here will have an old set they might be willing to donate or trade... - John From red at bears.org Thu Sep 6 12:32:24 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq SmartStart CDs? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906121218.02d8c4e0@pc> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, John Foust wrote: > They've been scrubbed and I need any version of the > Compaq SmartStart CDs that'll let me reboot and reconfigure > the systems to see how well they work. I have a friend who---until recently---worked at Compaq, specifically on SmartStart. I'll fire him off a line and see if he can shed any light on the situation. ok r. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Thu Sep 6 13:17:32 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: OT: Compaq SmartStart CDs? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906121218.02d8c4e0@pc>; from jfoust@threedee.com on Thu, Sep 06, 2001 at 12:15:03PM -0500 References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906121218.02d8c4e0@pc> Message-ID: <20010906131732.A394610@uiuc.edu> I used to work on one of these machines -- I believe you can get floppy images from compaq's web site that will do the same thing, though they're not as easy to work with... John Foust said: > > Off-topic, at least as much as an HP/Compaq merger... > > I picked up a pair of Compaq ProLiant 7000 servers at a > great price. Up to four PPro 200s, 12 sleds, rack mount. > > They've been scrubbed and I need any version of the > Compaq SmartStart CDs that'll let me reboot and reconfigure > the systems to see how well they work. > > These CDs are $50 on eBay, but that's probably people selling > their old sets. I'm hoping someone here will have an old set > they might be willing to donate or trade... > > - John - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Sep 6 13:19:46 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Compaq SmartStart CDs? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DB4@MAIL10> John: I may have a version of the 3.2 SmartStart at home. If you can't get one, let me know. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 1:15 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: OT: Compaq SmartStart CDs? Off-topic, at least as much as an HP/Compaq merger... I picked up a pair of Compaq ProLiant 7000 servers at a great price. Up to four PPro 200s, 12 sleds, rack mount. They've been scrubbed and I need any version of the Compaq SmartStart CDs that'll let me reboot and reconfigure the systems to see how well they work. These CDs are $50 on eBay, but that's probably people selling their old sets. I'm hoping someone here will have an old set they might be willing to donate or trade... - John From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 6 13:18:58 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've just pulled out my copy of 'Beneath Apple DOS', and the > > > information you need doesn't seem to be in there. There's very little > > > about the disk hardware at all -- it assumes you'll at least use the > > > standard routines to read/write bytes on the disk. > > > > The info that Sean is looking for is in the Apple ][ DOS manual. I have a > > Is it? Where? I've just had a quick look, and apart from the schematics, > again there's no hardware info. And you can't work out the function of Q6 > from just a schematic (or at least I can't). Dang. I must've been mistaken then. I know I have a manual or something that explains the operation of the state machine. It's been years since I saw it though. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 6 13:21:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: <3B96D8ED.C68FC1A7@agames.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Sean Gugler wrote: > "Beneath Apple ProDOS" is probably what I want, then. I've never seen > either book, but I heard the second offered some recap and some fresh > material that was also useful to DOS 3.3 -- possibly the state machine > flowchart was among the fresh material, not recap. BAP does not have this information either :( Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Charles.McManis at netapp.com Thu Sep 6 13:30:31 2001 From: Charles.McManis at netapp.com (McManis, Charles) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers (was HP & Compaq) Message-ID: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274083@black.eng.netapp.com> Jeff Hellige originally wrote: > As has been shown over and over, the masses put up with a lot > of things that an individual would otherwise turn away from and > refuse. It's kind of interesting to note that at this point, PC > brand names mean very little and there's little to no brand loyalty. > Makes sense since there is little difference from one to the other. This is why collecting classic computers and preserving them is so important. Interestingly, people who were different in the early PC days were punished severely from not being "100% PC Compatible" Many on this list remember the famous question, "But does is run MS Flight Simulator?" Which was one of the standard compatibility tests. As for brand names, I think they will come more and more to mean _everything_. After all it has happened with cars it will happen with computers. 21st century personal computers are rapidly converging on a relatively fixed function, internet access unit with data composition and retrieval capabilities. No doubt the auto industry had a very similar time of it and today cars are largely identical except for things like body styling and number of cup holders. So what used to be special and unique, is now common and mundane. --Chuck From matt at knm.yi.org Thu Sep 6 13:33:27 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > > I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders are on-topic :-) > > > > Hey - remember they used to be used to store programs before we got > > disks! :&) > > Most people used compact cassette recorders for that. I am talking about > things a little older than that -- like the old Brennell Mark V I happen > to have (3 motors, 3 heads, 3 speed deck, but 4 positions on the > equalistation switch on the amplifier [1]). Valved, of course. > > [1] The amplifier has settings for 1+7/8, 3+3/4, 7+1/2 and 15 ips. The > deck has a 3 speed selector. You can either have the 1+7/8, 3+3/4, 7+1/2 > range or the 3+3/4, 7+1/2, 15 range depending on which capstan sleeve you > have fitted to the spindle. Yup - I have an AKAI upright unit here. 3 head units are nice things :&) My AKAI only does 3 3/4 and 7 1/2, but I did have a unit that did 1 7/8 too. Never had a high enough quality unit to do 15 ips :&) Anyway - we deviate from the topic :&) > While it is possible to use such machines to store programs from most > home computers, I don't think many people did. Somebody actually told me > the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape > recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't > believe it won't work). I think I did it once or twice with my spectrum when I couldn't find any spare tapes to save my stuff on - you could fir an awful lot on a 7" reel :&) I don't see why it wouldn't work either, cause you've got the same line input circuitry in both. I should dig out some of my older kit just to play :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 6 13:32:35 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > Another good source of information on the IWM is the patent issued to > Wozniak. Go to Delphion.com and you should be able to dig up the > patent and order a .pdf of it for $3.00 Why pay for something you can get for free? http://www.uspto.gov/ Controller for magnetic disc, recorder, or the like July 1, 1980 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=4&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=pall&S1=('wozniak,+stephen'.INZZ.)&OS=in/"wozniak,+stephen"&RS=IN/"wozniak,+stephen" Here are some other Woz patents: Microcomputer for use with video display January 23, 1979 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=5&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=pall&S1=('wozniak,+stephen'.INZZ.)&OS=in/"wozniak,+stephen"&RS=IN/"wozniak,+stephen" Apparatus for digitally controlling pal color display August 12, 1980 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=3&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=pall&S1=('wozniak,+stephen'.INZZ.)&OS=in/"wozniak,+stephen"&RS=IN/"wozniak,+stephen" Digitally-controlled color signal generation means for use with display July 14, 1981 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=16&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ft85&S1=wozniak.INZZ.&OS=in/wozniak&RS=IN/wozniak Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From matt at knm.yi.org Thu Sep 6 13:44:28 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, > > > > I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders > > > > are on-topic :-) > > While it is possible to use such machines to store programs from most > > home computers, I don't think many people did. > > I did! I hooked up my Akai 4000DS reel-to-reel > (transistor, not valve) to my Compukit UK101. The idea was > to try to record faster by using higher freqencies and a > higher baud rate -- and a higher tape speed, 7 1/2 ips. *nod* (see my other reply post) > > Somebody actually told me > > the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape > > recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't > > believe it won't work). > > -tony > > As far as I can see, anything that'll record and play back > audio should work on a cassette port. So a reel-to-reel > machine should be fine, as should, say 45rpm vinyl records. > Didn't one of the Elektor machines use 45s for software > distribution? Wasn't there once a music CD with software > on one track (for a Spectrum?)? I do seem to recall a magazine giving away a cover "disc" - which was one of those flexible 7" vinyl discs - you shoved that on your record deck and fed it to your spectrum. Seemed quite a neat idea - I never bought the mag tho. I suppose looking back now I should have done :&/ -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From sieler at allegro.com Thu Sep 6 13:48:28 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers (was HP & Compaq) In-Reply-To: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274083@black.eng.netapp.com> Message-ID: <3B97628C.11424.AB9DA57@localhost> Re: > As for brand names, I think they will come more and more to mean > _everything_. After all it has happened with cars it will happen Did you mean: _nothing_, not _everything_? Your arguments argued in favor of *nothing*, after all! > No doubt the auto industry had a very similar time of it and > today cars are largely identical except for things like body > styling and number of cup holders. So what used to be special > and unique, is now common and mundane. I.e., the brand name doesn't mean anything ("common, mundane" and not longer "unique"). In that case, I agree...brand names in computers have come to mean nothing, well ... perhaps less than that: there are a few that have become negative. I.e., I won't buy an HP PC ... they're too idiosynractic. I'd much rather buy a generic PC, where I can get the information about the motherboard, chipset, etc., and don't have to fight software that's got oddball spyware pre-installed for me, or that requires a software key from HP to reinstall. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Thu Sep 6 14:58:34 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Compaq SmartStart CDs? References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906121218.02d8c4e0@pc> Message-ID: <03f201c1370e$4fe28680$05ffa8c0@hx.com> John, Go to http://www.compaq.com/support/files/server/us/index.html Then select the server model and other info and the Compaq support system should find the necessary files "automagically" for you. Hope this helps. Jacek Artymiak -- OnetKomunikator - porozumiesz sie z innymi [ http://ok.onet.pl/instaluj.html ] From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Sep 6 15:19:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers (was HP & Compaq) In-Reply-To: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274083@black.eng.netapp.com> References: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274083@black.eng.netapp.com> Message-ID: >As for brand names, I think they will come more and more to mean >_everything_. After all it has happened with cars it will happen >with computers. 21st century personal computers are rapidly >converging on a relatively fixed function, internet access unit with >data composition and retrieval capabilities. Anyone that is familiar with automotive history from the turn of the century up until the late 1950's should be able to see the parallels in the two industries...it's just happening quicker due to the faster product cycles with microcomputers. >No doubt the auto industry had a very similar time of it and today >cars are largely identical except for things like body styling and >number of cup holders. So what used to be special and unique, is now >common and mundane. My only problem with that analogy is that automobiles are fairly fixed as to what you can use them for, while computers on the other hand are bounded only by the imagination and talent of the programmers. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:09:31 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Update on IIgs Computers Message-ID: To all who responded to my inquiry on IIgs computers, My apologies for the delay on this. I was delayed in getting the stuff, and put the last in my loft at 11:00pm last night! The quantity was certainly smaller than I was led to believe... One school had already dumped some stuff... Totals are as follows: IIgs CPUs: 25 3.5" floppies: 20+ 5.25" floppies: 20+ IIgs keyboards/cables: 20+ IIgs Monitors: 12 (there are more left ... see below...) Imagewriter II w/ cable: 5 Macintosh LCII w/ monitor/keyboard/mouse: 2 IIgs mice: ???? (I didn't get an exact count, and I'm afraid I will be short quite a few) IIc CPUs w/ power supply: 2 The only things left at the school are monitors. I have them on hold, so they won't be dumped, but there are at least 12 more IIgs monitors, and 2 IIc color composite monitors. I didn't know how many people were interested in the monitors, however, because of shipping costs. I will begin testing, but I don't expect to get done before the end of the weekend (I do have a life! :-P). I will let you know further what exactly is in each IIgs, any cards, ROM versions, etc. at that time. I will also have exact counts on how many "complete" systems I can build. There was one near-mint Woz w/ a memory card, but I'm keeping that one :-) Since I am keeping a IIgs, and also one of the LC IIs (there were three, but I deducted my keeper from the list above), I am looking for a set of working IIgs System Software (6.0.1, I think? Or maybe 6.1??) diskettes, and a set of working MacOS System 7.5 diskettes. We can work a deal if you would like, and the diskettes do NOT have to be originals (no legal issues, as Apple has these for download.... I'm not an Apple expert, however, so I'd rather get already-working disk sets...) Unless you have diskettes for me, please do NOT reply to this message. I will post again when I have completed testing all of the hardware. At that time, I will ask for who is interested in what, and where we go from there.... Also, apologies for mentioning the LC II ... OT until next year, I think :-) Thanks! Rich B. From west at tseinc.com Thu Sep 6 15:34:25 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: OT?? NOVELL 3.11/3.12 complete manual set available Message-ID: <001301c13713$56c08b50$d201a8c0@jay> Don't know how old Novell 3.11 is, so this might be offtopic - if so, my apologies... We're dumping the last remaining trash out of our old office. I came across a (likely) complete manual set for novell 3.11/3.12. They are free for the cost of shipping if anyone wants them. If you want them, speak up before noon tomorrow or they're going into the dumpster Jay West From Charles.McManis at netapp.com Thu Sep 6 15:43:23 2001 From: Charles.McManis at netapp.com (McManis, Charles) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers Message-ID: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274087@black.eng.netapp.com> In response to my comment of: >No doubt the auto industry had a very similar time of it and today >cars are largely identical except for things like body styling and >number of cup holders. So what used to be special and unique, is now >common and mundane. At 04:19 PM 9/6/2001 -0400, Jeff Hellige wrote: > My only problem with that analogy is that automobiles are >fairly fixed as to what you can use them for, while computers on the >other hand are bounded only by the imagination and talent of the >programmers. Except that over 95% of "end user" computers purchased today are _not_ bought by programmers. And what non-programmers do with computers _is_ fixed, and as many on this list have complained it gets harder and harder every year to find enough information to actually program these things at a level deeper than Visual Basic script. So what I predict, is that in the near future (probably 1 to 2 but certainly less than 5 years) you will only see "computers" sold as either big-bad-ass servers, or small embeddedable controllers. The middle ground, the so called "Personal Computer" will cease to exist as a general purpose machine. And only the programmers will notice. --Chuck From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 6 16:24:54 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Update on IIgs Computers Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467040@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Rich --- I have installers for OS 7.1.2, 7.5, 7.5.1, etc., up to 8.1, on my Service Source CD. Let me know exactly which you're looking for. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Rich Beaudry [mailto:r_beaudry@hotmail.com] ! Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 4:10 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Update on IIgs Computers ! ! ! To all who responded to my inquiry on IIgs computers, ! ! My apologies for the delay on this. I was delayed in getting ! the stuff, and ! put the last in my loft at 11:00pm last night! ! ! The quantity was certainly smaller than I was led to ! believe... One school ! had already dumped some stuff... ! ! Totals are as follows: ! ! IIgs CPUs: 25 ! 3.5" floppies: 20+ ! 5.25" floppies: 20+ ! IIgs keyboards/cables: 20+ ! IIgs Monitors: 12 (there are more left ... see below...) ! Imagewriter II w/ cable: 5 ! Macintosh LCII w/ monitor/keyboard/mouse: 2 ! IIgs mice: ???? (I didn't get an exact count, and I'm afraid ! I will be short ! quite a few) ! IIc CPUs w/ power supply: 2 ! ! The only things left at the school are monitors. I have them ! on hold, so ! they won't be dumped, but there are at least 12 more IIgs ! monitors, and 2 ! IIc color composite monitors. I didn't know how many people ! were interested ! in the monitors, however, because of shipping costs. ! ! I will begin testing, but I don't expect to get done before ! the end of the ! weekend (I do have a life! :-P). I will let you know further ! what exactly ! is in each IIgs, any cards, ROM versions, etc. at that time. ! I will also ! have exact counts on how many "complete" systems I can build. ! ! There was one near-mint Woz w/ a memory card, but I'm keeping ! that one :-) ! ! Since I am keeping a IIgs, and also one of the LC IIs (there ! were three, but ! I deducted my keeper from the list above), I am looking for a ! set of working ! IIgs System Software (6.0.1, I think? Or maybe 6.1??) ! diskettes, and a set ! of working MacOS System 7.5 diskettes. We can work a deal if ! you would ! like, and the diskettes do NOT have to be originals (no legal ! issues, as ! Apple has these for download.... I'm not an Apple expert, ! however, so I'd ! rather get already-working disk sets...) ! ! Unless you have diskettes for me, please do NOT reply to this ! message. I ! will post again when I have completed testing all of the ! hardware. At that ! time, I will ask for who is interested in what, and where we go from ! there.... ! ! Also, apologies for mentioning the LC II ... OT until next ! year, I think :-) ! ! Thanks! ! ! Rich B. ! From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Sep 6 17:46:01 2001 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Booting Apple ][GS Message-ID: Hi folks, I'm sure I read here that it was possible to boot a GS over an Appletalk network; I've got a choice now - the ][GS 5 1/4" floppy drive I won in January has finally turned up so I can either try and get GS/OS onto 5 1/4" disks or I can boot GS/OS images from another Mac or something.....I'm itching to get it running for the museum so any hints are appreciated.... cheers! -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - The online Computer museum, now with its 3rd CBM P500 www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly Gothic shenanigans From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Sep 6 18:24:23 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers In-Reply-To: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274087@black.eng.netapp.com> References: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274087@black.eng.netapp.com> Message-ID: >So what I predict, is that in the near future (probably 1 to 2 but >certainly less than 5 years) you will only see "computers" sold as >either big-bad-ass servers, or small embeddedable controllers. The >middle ground, the so called "Personal Computer" will cease to exist >as a general purpose machine. And only the programmers will notice. Then, as you said in your previous message, it is important that we are preserving the much more flexible machines to be able to show what could be done with them and how many more choices they represented. There will always have to be some sort of general purpose machine though at some level so that the applications and such for the embedded machines can be produced. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 6 18:42:11 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers In-Reply-To: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274087@black.eng.netapp.co m> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906183133.02d70360@pc> At 01:43 PM 9/6/01 -0700, McManis, Charles wrote: >So what I predict, is that in the near future (probably 1 to 2 but certainly less than 5 years) you will only see "computers" sold as either big-bad-ass servers, or small embeddedable controllers. The middle ground, the so called "Personal Computer" will cease to exist as a general purpose machine. And only the programmers will notice. With prices dropping so low, computers have become more disposable. But even with the $200 Celeron 566 you can buy today, it still has drive bays and memory slots and IDE and USB I/O interfaces. A vast part of the computer market is the selling of add-ons and replacement components. How cheap will computers need to be before you'll throw one away because the CD drive stopped working? Does commoditization necessary mean they'll no longer be expandable, and that they'll be expendable? (Driving to the office tonight, a very beat-up and rusty car very nearly matched the speed of my 2001 model.) Does it mean people won't want to buy replacement parts or upgrade options? What might this mean for classic computers? In fifteen years, some of them may be unbootable, as the ASP-like web services they depended on have disappeared like so many dog-food-selling dot-com ephemera sites. To stretch the auto analogy, even in the smallest towns there are still auto parts stores and repair shops and at the next level, all the junk yards and parts dealers who fill the needs of the repair stores. With the surging wave of enthusiastic game-players who rapidly drove the pace of graphics card development far beyond what the earlier CAD and computer graphics market ever demanded, has emerged a new class of computer owners who eagerly upgrade, tweak, customize and polish their systems beyond all reason. Just like car enthusiasts. :-) - John From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Sep 6 19:05:00 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Booting Apple ][GS In-Reply-To: from Adrian Graham at "Sep 6, 1 11:46:01 pm" Message-ID: <200109070005.RAA09844@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > I'm sure I read here that it was possible to boot a GS over an Appletalk > network; Possible, yes. However, I can't seem to get GS/OS booting over the network; it insists on going into BASIC.SYSTEM which is *not* waht I want. Still working on this! -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 18:36:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Sep 6, 1 12:41:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1386 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010907/8a871e39/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 18:43:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 Revisited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010906105420.01181ec0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 6, 1 10:54:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1183 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010907/cb741cbf/attachment.ksh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 20:23:32 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Somebody actually told me > > > the IBM PC 'cassette port' wouldn't work with a reel-to-reel tape > > > recorder, but never gave a sensible reason why not (and FWIW, I don't > > > believe it won't work). > I believe it will work as well.. As far as I remember one of the reasons > given why it woulding work is that the plugs on the IBM cassette cable > wouldn't fit a reel-to-reel tape recorder. Of course that would be no > problem at all for a hacker with a soldering iron :-) In the US, IBM NEVER sold a cassette cable. But the pinout was the same as the TRS-80 1 and 3. Radio Shack here used to say that THEIR cassette recorder (CTR-80?) was the best for it, and the only one that would work reliably. Their explanation was that it wouldn't work right with a higher fidelity, that it needed the amount of "blur" of the signal that theirs did! I always found the TRS-80 cassette to be an almost entirely WRITE-ONLY medium. Success with reading back tapes was as elusive as successful CD burning with the eatly 2X CDRs. There was once an outfit that marketed a PC to PC communications package through the cassette ports. That died immediately on release of the XT. There had been similar stuff with Coco. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From gugler at agames.com Thu Sep 6 21:00:52 2001 From: gugler at agames.com (Sean Gugler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine References: Message-ID: <3B982A54.D687D0FA@agames.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Chandra Bajpai wrote: > > > Another good source of information on the IWM is the patent issued to > > Wozniak. Go to Delphion.com and you should be able to dig up the > > patent and order a .pdf of it for $3.00 > > Why pay for something you can get for free? > > http://www.uspto.gov/ > > Controller for magnetic disc, recorder, or the like > July 1, 1980 > http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=4&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=pall&S1=('wozniak,+stephen'.INZZ.)&OS=in/"wozniak,+stephen"&RS=IN/"wozniak,+stephen" Score! It'll take me a while to digest it, but that's some good depth of detail you've found. From the most ground-zero source, no less. Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread, I'm grateful for your support. I'm going to bungie back off the list again (traffic is a bit high-volume for my current attention budget) but maybe I'll see some of you at the Vintage Computer Festival or California Extreme in a week. I'll be the long-hair wearing a black "Gauntlet: Dark Legacy" T and/or a gray Atari vest. Cheers, - Sean -- Sean Gugler ("Dr. Guz") guz@doctor.com "This quote's just six words long." From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 6 21:05:55 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <20010907020736.NBRW1245.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Russ Blakeman > I never have a problem with the business line of HP PCs' (Kayak, Brio and > Vectra) - the Pavilion line keeps me going with warranty repairs at $65 per > inshop repair and $30 per "exchange unit". I was specifically referring to the Pavilions. The Vectras were especially well-made. > I only get one of every 50 or 60 > owners that have the Compaq owner's attitude about HP's machines. Not too sure what you're saying here. > If you contact customer support at HP they can either ship a free restore > set if it's under warranty and you tell them it's there but not loading. If > you've lost it, in or out of warranty, they can sell you a replacemant if > you supply the unit serial number. Problem is the customers often won't wait. We're famous for <= 2-day-turnaround ;>) > Packard Bell wasn't bad near the end of their reign of terror. They got real > too late and were already on a downward spiral fast towards earth. Yeah, their P-II boxes were *almost* standard ATX. > I don't know why anyone feels the HP restore is bloated...it's all > MicroSteal for the most part. All windows 98, NT, ME and 2k stuff is huge > and you need a broadband connection to download it. I just popped $20 for > the Win NT 4.0 service pack 6.0a rather than sit for 2 days downloading it. I never download any MS stuff. I'm referring to the device drivers for goodies like the Riptide sound/modem combo. The drivers posted at hp.com are > 9MB. The *real* fun begins when, after the download, the installation program pukes up a message: "Cannot find original driver files -- update terminated" or something to that effect. Why aren't the originals available on their site??? And what sort of code, exactly, is in a > 14 MB video driver??? When I was writing C for a living, if I had ever produced an executable -- never mind a device driver -- which occupied 14 MB of disk space I would have been sent packing. Sheesh. Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 6 21:14:33 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <20010907021611.JISB15811.imf13bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: Jeff Hellige > As has been shown over and over, the masses put up with a lot > of things that an individual would otherwise turn away from and > refuse. It's kind of interesting to note that at this point, PC > brand names mean very little and there's little to no brand loyalty. > Makes sense since there is little difference from one to the other. Unfortunately people new to PCs often regard name-brands highly when shopping for their first computer, and they will often turn up their snouts when they see my (very nice looking) white-box clones. I have also had people tell me they didn't believe small shops actually built systems, but that we bought them from some Asian factory (too "complex" to be produced outside of an assembly line). Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 6 21:24:53 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <20010907022630.NGOX3917.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > From: John Honniball > > > > I am not sure that ancient analogue tape recorders > > > > are on-topic :-) > > While it is possible to use such machines to store programs from most > > home computers, I don't think many people did. > > I did! I hooked up my Akai 4000DS reel-to-reel > (transistor, not valve) to my Compukit UK101. DS? I have a 4000D right here which I use to convert old tapes to CD-ROM media. What's the difference between D and DS??? BTW the ZX81/TS1000 is extremely picky about tape recorders, and I have never gotten one to work with a reel-to-reel deck. Any ideas why? > Didn't one of the Elektor machines use 45s for software > distribution? Wasn't there once a music CD with software > on one track (for a Spectrum?)? Actually it was a 45-rpm disk. The program was on one side and music was on the other. The idea was to load the program into the Spectrum, then flip the record and run the program and play the music at the same time. There was some sort of way to sync the program to the music (or vice versa) for a "multimedia experience." Glen 0/0 From louiss at gate.net Thu Sep 6 21:26:27 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109070226.WAA04716@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Someone across the lake sent a post the other day about a Brain Boxes PC Elite IEEE-488 card and its supposed ability to transfer files to and from a Commodore Pet drive. This seems possible, and the software does exist. Has anyone ever transferred files to and/or from a Pet floppy drive using the GPIB interface? If it works, does anyone have an ISA or PCI IEEE-488 card they would like to part with? (I have one for the Apple II, and would trade). I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works with their card or any card. If the former, any of you British chaps want to part with such a card (these cards seem not to be available in the colonies)? Louis From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 6 22:21:08 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906183133.02d70360@pc> References: <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274087@black.eng.netapp.co m> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010906201604.03414400@209.185.79.193> At 06:42 PM 9/6/01 -0500, John Foust wrote: >With prices dropping so low, computers have become more >disposable. But even with the $200 Celeron 566 you can >buy today, it still has drive bays and memory slots and >IDE and USB I/O interfaces. Yup and they are all disposable. Its weird but in the Bay area you can buy an old Pentium deskside computer (P5 or P5MMX) for $50 to $75 but pull the boards out and resell them and you can get $150 to $250. >Does commoditization necessary mean they'll no longer be >expandable, and that they'll be expendable? Yes. Fastest growing PC segment = "laptop" what makes laptops unique? Nothing but a couple of PCMCIA or CARDBUS slots for "expansion" everything else you are generally stuck with. > (Driving to the >office tonight, a very beat-up and rusty car very nearly >matched the speed of my 2001 model.) Does it mean people >won't want to buy replacement parts or upgrade options? Generally peripherals (joysticks, firewire CDRW drives, etc) will be the "aftermarket" like trailer hitches, KC lamps, and fuzzy dice are for cars. >What might this mean for classic computers? In fifteen years, >some of them may be unbootable, as the ASP-like web services >they depended on have disappeared like so many dog-food-selling >dot-com ephemera sites. Screw 15 years, I've got a computer like that right now, its called a "I-Opener" And one called a DivX player. >To stretch the auto analogy, even in the smallest towns there >are still auto parts stores and repair shops and at the next >level, all the junk yards and parts dealers who fill the >needs of the repair stores. Yup, folks like Tony who can rip a 2.5" drive out of an ancient laptop without damaging it are going to become the new kings of the "chop shop" kingdom. >With the surging wave of enthusiastic game-players who rapidly >drove the pace of graphics card development far beyond what >the earlier CAD and computer graphics market ever demanded, >has emerged a new class of computer owners who eagerly >upgrade, tweak, customize and polish their systems beyond all reason. >Just like car enthusiasts. :-) 'cept a lot of game players are going to go X-pox and PS/2 here and screw the PC. --Chuck From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Sep 6 22:24:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <20010907020736.NBRW1245.imf05bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: The "Compaqq owner" attitude is (after buying said machine) that "this is the biggest piece of sh**" -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin -> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:06 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: HP & Compaq -> -> -> > From: Russ Blakeman -> -> > I never have a problem with the business line of HP PCs' -> (Kayak, Brio and -> > Vectra) - the Pavilion line keeps me going with warranty repairs at $65 -> per -> > inshop repair and $30 per "exchange unit". -> -> I was specifically referring to the Pavilions. The Vectras were -> especially -> well-made. -> -> > I only get one of every 50 or 60 -> > owners that have the Compaq owner's attitude about HP's machines. -> -> Not too sure what you're saying here. -> -> > If you contact customer support at HP they can either ship a -> free restore -> > set if it's under warranty and you tell them it's there but -> not loading. -> If -> > you've lost it, in or out of warranty, they can sell you a -> replacemant if -> > you supply the unit serial number. -> -> Problem is the customers often won't wait. We're famous for <= -> 2-day-turnaround ;>) -> -> > Packard Bell wasn't bad near the end of their reign of terror. They got -> real -> > too late and were already on a downward spiral fast towards earth. -> -> Yeah, their P-II boxes were *almost* standard ATX. -> -> > I don't know why anyone feels the HP restore is bloated...it's all -> > MicroSteal for the most part. All windows 98, NT, ME and 2k -> stuff is huge -> > and you need a broadband connection to download it. I just -> popped $20 for -> > the Win NT 4.0 service pack 6.0a rather than sit for 2 days downloading -> it. -> -> I never download any MS stuff. -> -> I'm referring to the device drivers for goodies like the Riptide -> sound/modem combo. The drivers posted at hp.com are > 9MB. The -> *real* fun -> begins when, after the download, the installation program pukes up a -> message: "Cannot find original driver files -- update terminated" or -> something to that effect. Why aren't the originals available on their -> site??? And what sort of code, exactly, is in a > 14 MB video driver??? -> -> When I was writing C for a living, if I had ever produced an -> executable -- -> never mind a device driver -- which occupied 14 MB of disk space I would -> have been sent packing. Sheesh. -> -> Glen -> 0/0 -> -> From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 6 23:06:20 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > Then, as you said in your previous message, it is important that > we are preserving the much more flexible machines to be able to show > what could be done with them and how many more choices they > represented. There will always have to be some sort of general > purpose machine though at some level so that the applications and such > for the embedded machines can be produced. Or computing, as it always does, comes back around full circle and everything old is new again: you write the apps on a big and powerful general purpose machine and compile them for the target computer. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Sep 6 23:07:01 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010906201604.03414400@209.185.79.193> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906183133.02d70360@pc> <6440EA1A6AA1D5118C6900902745938E274087@black.eng.netapp.co m> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010906230523.00e3eb90@pc> At 08:21 PM 9/6/01 -0700, you wrote: >Yup and they are all disposable. Its weird but in the Bay area you can buy an old Pentium deskside computer (P5 or P5MMX) for $50 to $75 but pull the boards out and resell them and you can get $150 to $250. Shhh! Don't tell anyone. :-) >Screw 15 years, I've got a computer like that right now, its called a "I-Opener" >And one called a DivX player. Well, you can still adapt the iOpener. There are certainly other net-dependent and unmodifiable devices out there. I think I saw one at a rummage sale already for $10 or best offer... some kind of proprietary e-mail device. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 6 23:35:39 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Sep 06, 2001 10:24:54 PM Message-ID: <200109070435.f874ZdM00920@shell1.aracnet.com> > > The "Compaqq owner" attitude is (after buying said machine) that "this is > the biggest piece of sh**" > I don't know, I've been pretty happy with the DEC AlphaStation 500/333 that I bought from Compaq. Zane From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 7 00:26:11 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. References: <000601c1363a$bc1e7400$b3b9e2d1@kstumpf> <15254.42006.484465.970613@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3B985A73.827FCBEE@internet1.net> Wow, you know it's BIG if Dave was impressed :-) Seriuosly though, I didn't know computers were THAT big.... I've always heard of "rooms", but "floors" takes the cake! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: >> I saw a 370/168 once. I'd swear it was the single largest computer > I've ever seen. The building it was in had a disk drive *floor*. > > I had to use bleach on that underwear. > > -Dave From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Fri Sep 7 03:06:00 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: Self Same computers (was HP & Compaq) In-Reply-To: <3B97628C.11424.AB9DA57@localhost> Message-ID: On 06-Sep-2001 Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: >> As for brand names, I think they will come more and more to mean >> _everything_. After all it has happened with cars it will happen > > Did you mean: _nothing_, not _everything_? > Your arguments argued in favor of *nothing*, after all! > >> No doubt the auto industry had a very similar time of it and >> today cars are largely identical except for things like body >> styling and number of cup holders. So what used to be special >> and unique, is now common and mundane. > > I.e., the brand name doesn't mean anything ("common, mundane" > and not longer "unique"). > > In that case, I agree...brand names in computers have come to mean > nothing, well ... perhaps less than that: there are a few that have > become negative. I.e., I won't buy an HP PC ... they're too > idiosynractic. I'd much rather buy a generic PC, where I can > get the information about the motherboard, chipset, etc., and don't > have to fight software that's got oddball spyware pre-installed for me, > or that requires a software key from HP to reinstall. The "logic" of branding works the other way around. All pants are the same (or nearly) but folks will fork out the big bucks to get ones with little Tommy flag on them. Same with shoes. Same with cigarettes. When you can't compete on features or penis size^W^Wgigahertz then it's either price, quality and branding. Lower prices cut profits, quality is a feature (that many folks like to omit) so that leaves you branding. Note that I distinctly dislike branding and the sillness it creates (paging the new "bettle"). -Philip From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 7 03:17:43 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:18 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907011559.034cde40@209.185.79.193> I've got some copies of DOS. I know, I know. Does anyone want them? I've got PC-DOS 3.0 in the original IBM slipcase I've got two copies of MS-DOS 5, one is still shrinkwrapped I think I have PC-DOS 3.2 anyway they are available for postage or free if you come to sunnyvale to get them. --Chuck From sipke at wxs.nl Fri Sep 7 03:25:36 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Second Source i4004? References: <200108262109.RAA27575@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <004a01c13776$ac7e1fe0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> NS certainly did second source the 8080 later on. Sipke de Wal -------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Louis Schulman To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:09 PM Subject: Re: Second Source i4004? > On Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:37:09 -0400 (EDT), Dave McGuire wrote: > > #On August 26, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > #> I was looking inside my ProLog M-900 and noticed a gold and > #> ceramic chip labeled "INS4004D" socketed next to two i4002s. > #> Does anyone know if National Semi second sourced the i4004? > #> It also has the number "530" on the bottom which I suppose > #> is a lot no. > #> > #> For those with GUI browsers, here is the best I could do > #> with my camera: > #> > #> http://home.earthlink.net/~wmsmith/ProLog4004.jpg > # > # Hmm, it sure looks like it! > # > Doesn't INS mean Intersil, not National Semi? > > Louis > From hansp at aconit.org Fri Sep 7 04:59:04 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> from Bob Shannon at "Sep 4, 1 07:38:19 pm" Message-ID: <3B989A68.2040305@aconit.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>I'm referring to the Itanium; not sure if Intel got that from DEC or not. > They most certainly did not! Itanium is the marketing name for what was > called Merced for many years. It's been in development since something > like the early 90's. HP on the other hand is heavily involved in Merced/Itanium development and plan on using that architectire as a replacemnet for their PA/RISC. -- HBP From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 6 15:27:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Self Same computers (was HP & Compaq) References: <3B97628C.11424.AB9DA57@localhost> Message-ID: <000201c13799$61cf8b00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> You can make the generalization that "brand-named" computers are harder to work with, i.e. have mfg-imposed limitations that interfere, say, with expandability, but you can't really generalize over a particular manufacturer here in the U.S. since a goodly share of their products are built offshore in compliance with spec's designed by a committee whose main concern is not to tread on another product line's market. Further, if you try to get information about the details of how motherboards work, you'll often find you're on your way up a blind alley, as motherboard makers seldom know any more than your as yet unborn grandson about the products they sell. They hire all the work out and publish a copy of a manual provided by the same folks who provide them with the PCB artwork, and they buy the BIOS from the lowest bidder. More often than not, the CD shipped with a motherboard bought on the "open" market doesn't even contain information regarding the motherboard with which it was included, because the market window is so small there's no time to incorporate that information into a CD. As fickle as the market is these days, that should surpise no one. This isn't the case with ALL motherboards you can buy, but it's surprisingly common among the "popular" brands. Much of the time you get barely enough to make them work. Unfortunately, the "name brands" e.g. COMPAQ, HP, DELL, and eMachines, though I guess the latter is pretty much history by now, all have simitaitons on what they tell you, and often, as has been cited, there are numerous things about which they tell you nothing. Spyware, if that's a concern, can be avoided by buying systems sans-OS and installing your own OS. That puts the control in your hands. Of course, that limits your choices. These big computer companies will probably all go the way of the COMPAQ's and others. They're unable to support their products adequately, so they need subcontroactors to handle that for them. The subcontractors, however, can do the job better if the "big brother" company gets out of the way, hence, they end up putting together systems using general market component products. Those are more easily maintained, updated, set-up, and paid-for. Support your local PC vendor. He's not afraid to discuss non-MS OS' and he's not afraid to tell the truth about the latest hardware fad. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Sieler" To: "McManis, Charles" ; "'Classic Computer Collectors'" Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:48 PM Subject: Re: Self Same computers (was HP & Compaq) > Re: > > As for brand names, I think they will come more and more to mean > > _everything_. After all it has happened with cars it will happen > > Did you mean: _nothing_, not _everything_? > Your arguments argued in favor of *nothing*, after all! > > > No doubt the auto industry had a very similar time of it and > > today cars are largely identical except for things like body > > styling and number of cup holders. So what used to be special > > and unique, is now common and mundane. > > I.e., the brand name doesn't mean anything ("common, mundane" > and not longer "unique"). > > In that case, I agree...brand names in computers have come to mean > nothing, well ... perhaps less than that: there are a few that have > become negative. I.e., I won't buy an HP PC ... they're too > idiosynractic. I'd much rather buy a generic PC, where I can > get the information about the motherboard, chipset, etc., and don't > have to fight software that's got oddball spyware pre-installed for me, > or that requires a software key from HP to reinstall. > > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 7 08:00:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256FF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> It would have helped if the installers (before my time) hadn't wire-tied the cat 5 runs to the nearest 110v A/C lines... three-foot parallel runs, in fact... and management refuses to believe we need to re-cable.. I was even threatened by my supervisor-at-the-time and told not to bring it up again, as it would be a 5-digit refit cost. -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhblakeman@kih.net] > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:53 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: HP & Compaq > > > Sounds like you need to think about using STP shielded > cabling if you have > that much noise on the LAN. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > Douglas Quebbeman > -> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:21 AM > -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq > -> > -> > -> > > They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have > -> Intel logos > -> > > on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may > -> have been a > -> > > nightmare or something. ;) > -> > > -> > Those el-cheapo Linksys cards that I like because the > newer ones rarely > -> > fail on me and when they do they are cheap to replace, > are Tulip. And > -> > they're faster because of it. > -> > -> I hope you don't mean the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX > cards... they are > -> *way* too sensitive to noisy LANs... I've had to pull > several and replace > -> them with either Intel Pro/100 adapters, or drop back to > some old 3Com > -> 3c509 10Mbps combo cards... Of course, YMMV, etc... > -> > -> -dq > -> > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 7 08:03:11 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225700@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 6 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > I hope you don't mean the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX cards... they are > > *way* too sensitive to noisy LANs... I've had to pull several and replace > > them with either Intel Pro/100 adapters, or drop back to some old 3Com > > 3c509 10Mbps combo cards... Of course, YMMV, etc... > > Actually, I am referring specifically to the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX > Revision four and higher cards. The older ones are garbage. The box of 20 I bought last December has not served us well... even though I believe our LAN is the weak point, at least the Intel and 3Com cards don't crash the PC from effects of the noise... Regards, -dq From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 7 08:21:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: OT?? NOVELL 3.11/3.12 complete manual set available References: <001301c13713$56c08b50$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <002b01c1379f$f32e2560$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've used NW3.11 since '90, so it's not too new to be OT. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay West" To: Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 2:34 PM Subject: OT?? NOVELL 3.11/3.12 complete manual set available > Don't know how old Novell 3.11 is, so this might be offtopic - if so, my > apologies... > > We're dumping the last remaining trash out of our old office. I came across > a (likely) complete manual set for novell 3.11/3.12. They are free for the > cost of shipping if anyone wants them. > > If you want them, speak up before noon tomorrow or they're going into the > dumpster > > Jay West > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Sep 7 07:38:15 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3B989A68.2040305@aconit.org> References: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010907083815.01d323a8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 10:59 AM 9/7/01 +0100, Hans wrote: >> They most certainly did not! Itanium is the marketing name for what was >> called Merced for many years. It's been in development since something >> like the early 90's. >HP on the other hand is heavily involved in Merced/Itanium development >and plan on using that architectire as a replacemnet for their PA/RISC. > > -- HBP Again, Itanium is more or less what HP already had in sight as a replacement/successor to PA-RISC even before it was called Mercer/IA64/Itanium. HP had intended the architecture to feature many parallel resources (which IA64 will have), multi-instruction set with dynamic switching (which IA64 will have) and a sophisticated instruction scheduler that would have optimized the utilization of the chip resources to achieve maximum parallelism, instead of relying on the compiler to do the optimal scheduling. HP holds patents on all of these features. When the alliance with Intel came up, they dropped the last feature from the design and went back to the schedule-optimizing compiler paradigm. I am sure that Intel then pressed to include features that they deemed "convenient". In any event, Itanium is more a brainchild of HP than of Intel. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 7 09:31:01 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467043@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Chuck --- If no one else wnats them to use, stick them in with my Trimm case you're sneding. I'll keep them around, just in case! Geez, it looks like I'm starting my own library/museum! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Chuck McManis [mailto:cmcmanis@mcmanis.com] ! Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 4:18 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc ! ! ! I've got some copies of DOS. I know, I know. Does anyone want them? ! ! I've got PC-DOS 3.0 in the original IBM slipcase ! ! I've got two copies of MS-DOS 5, one is still shrinkwrapped ! ! I think I have PC-DOS 3.2 ! ! anyway they are available for postage or free if you come to ! sunnyvale to ! get them. ! --Chuck ! From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 7 09:29:34 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Self Same computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225704@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > So what I predict, is that in the near future (probably 1 to > 2 but certainly less than 5 years) you will only see > "computers" sold as either big-bad-ass servers, or small > embeddedable controllers. The middle ground, the so called > "Personal Computer" will cease to exist as a general purpose > machine. And only the programmers will notice. I don't think so- there is a significant market for a particular form-factor of personal computer, the workstation, that just won't go away. It's too small a niche market to justify the engineering and production of a "CAD appliance" and too large to justify killing the general purpose computer on which it's based. Ditto for "Programming appliances", "research applicances", and so on. These just won't come to be. Rather, the general purpose PC will live on to fill those market niches. Regards, -dq From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 7 09:38:50 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Noisy LAN (was RE: HP & Compaq) Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467044@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! It would have helped if the installers (before my time) ! hadn't wire-tied the cat 5 runs to the nearest 110v A/C ! lines... three-foot parallel runs, in fact... ! ! and management refuses to believe we need to re-cable.. ! I was even threatened by my supervisor-at-the-time and ! told not to bring it up again, as it would be a 5-digit ! refit cost. Oooof, that bites. Knowing me, I probably would mention it again, then once my boss reprimands me for it, I'd be up in HR (or the Big Boss) getting him tossed for being a (insert adjective of choice) moron... it's good he's gone now. Time to pitch the re-wire job... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From west at tseinc.com Fri Sep 7 22:09:30 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Undeliverable Mail] References: Message-ID: <007c01c13813$c56be080$0101a8c0@jay> Ron; Do you have any idea why your replies were rejected by the mail server? I'd be happy to look into this for you. Did you get any error message back with headers intact or anything? Just in case this is the problem - FYI to you and the list members - our mailservers check every mail going through our systems for relaying (either source or destination address must be considered local to our mailserver), plus our mailserver will not talk to any mail servers that are known "open relays" as per ordb and mail-abuse. If your mail server is on ordb or mail-abuse, you need to turn off 3rd party relaying or scream at your ISP to get them to turn it off. Mail services is a specialty of mine - there is absolutely NO valid reason to allow 3rd party relaying on a mail server. Ever. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Ron Hudson Cc: Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: Undeliverable Mail] > > > > > Well several of my replys were rejected by classicomp email system > so here they all are together... :^) > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > --- Ron Hudson wrote: > > > >> I was going to write a simulator for Bell Labs "Cardiac" (cardboard > >> slide the slides and move bits be the cpu your self) computer, but > >> all I > >> can find is the Instruction Set... > > > > > > Do you _have_ a CARDIAC? Do you want one? > > > > -ethan > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > I don't have one, but the instruction set was listed > on the Internet once or twice, 0,input ... What I > don't have is the "Wireing" that graphic on the "cpu" side > that controlls operation, and there are part that change > with the instructions. Yes I would like a cardiac, any > donations? (will trade for C coded emulator :^) > [ will code for toys?? ] ) > > > > I went on to "design" the 8 bit machine described because > cardiac won't handle character data, only 3 digit numbers. > > I also wanted to make use of the a whole 8 bits, and have > each instruction use only 8 bits (well some of them do read > the next byte via indirect of the PC) Also I think the flag > testing at for each instruction is um clever, what do you > think. > > will repost instruction set if desired. > > I really wanted some of you to look over the instruction > set and theory to see if I was obvously missing somthing. > > > > Reply to Zane... Thanks for the pointer to the TOPS-10 emulator > I will see what I can do with it... > > > > > > > > > > > From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 7 10:59:57 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Itanium, was Re: HP & Compaq References: <3B9565EB.21D31DB8@tiac.net> <3.0.2.32.20010907083815.01d323a8@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3B98EEFD.A14ADFC7@ecubics.com> Carlos Murillo wrote: > > > Again, Itanium is more or less what HP already had in sight as a > replacement/successor to PA-RISC even before it was called > Mercer/IA64/Itanium. HP had intended the architecture to > feature many parallel resources (which IA64 will have), multi-instruction > set with dynamic switching (which IA64 will have) and > a sophisticated instruction scheduler that would have optimized > the utilization of the chip resources to achieve maximum parallelism, > instead of relying on the compiler to do the optimal scheduling. > HP holds patents on all of these features. When the alliance with > Intel came up, they dropped the last feature from the design > and went back to the schedule-optimizing compiler paradigm. I am sure > that Intel then pressed to include features that they deemed > "convenient". In any event, Itanium is more a brainchild of HP > than of Intel. And now with the help of the alpha crew, they can clean up the Si mess they made, put the instruction scheduler back in, and finally get this EPIC working, but now as an OOO EPIC ;-) Anyway, we should postpone this discussion for another ten years, when the subject becomes vintage. Let's see how many people remember than, what merced or itanium were ... cheers From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 11:57:59 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907011559.034cde40@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > I've got some copies of DOS. I know, I know. Does anyone want them? If nobody else steps forward (or in it), I'll gladly take any copies of DOS. Besides my personal "collection", it is handy to have a lot of DOS manuals for various versions available for use by the students in my Microcomputer Operating Systems class. 'Course you could always bring them to VCF. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From allain at panix.com Fri Sep 7 12:05:29 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Self Same computers References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225704@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <001a01c137bf$4c642fc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > the general purpose PC will live on to fill those market niches. Either its a niche device or a general purpose device. I think the idea is that when a "Professional" device turns "Consumer", a market split occurs and you see product lines come about that are more clearly definable as one or the other. Every neat invention starts as "Prosumer", and gets simplified down to consumer, leaving pro's in a niche with at least a 10:1 price differential. PC product development is stuck waiting for high iNet bandwith, digital TV's and cheap flat screen. After all that happens I would expect prices (and Pro features) to go through the floor. John A. From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com Fri Sep 7 12:29:31 2001 From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: I need an RM03... Message-ID: <13673359956.11.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com> I need an RM03, preferrably within sane driving distance of Peoria, IL. Having a KS10 as a paperweight is absolutely no fun. I can trade PDP-11 stuff for one, I have all sorts of 11 kit that I'd be more than willing to trade for KS10 stuff. Also, if anyone has the 120V-AC plug that goes in a TM02, I am short one of those as well - I have the 220 volt version (but the rest of the drive is all 120 volt parts; Odd!) Basically, I'm sick of using the KS10 as just emulation validation and I want to get it running. ^_^ ------- From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Sep 7 13:00:20 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256FF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Have you brought up an interim fix - either clip the ties and support the cat5 bundle off the conduits? OR untie it, wrap the bundles with common aluminum foil (yeah it works) and then retie them using looser cable ties? Might be a nice way to pick up a few extra bucks on a weekend and make them happy at the same time. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:01 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> -> -> It would have helped if the installers (before my time) -> hadn't wire-tied the cat 5 runs to the nearest 110v A/C -> lines... three-foot parallel runs, in fact... -> -> and management refuses to believe we need to re-cable.. -> I was even threatened by my supervisor-at-the-time and -> told not to bring it up again, as it would be a 5-digit -> refit cost. -> -> -dq -> -> > -----Original Message----- -> > From: Russ Blakeman [mailto:rhblakeman@kih.net] -> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 9:53 AM -> > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> > -> > -> > Sounds like you need to think about using STP shielded -> > cabling if you have -> > that much noise on the LAN. -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of -> > Douglas Quebbeman -> > -> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 7:21 AM -> > -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> > -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> > > They BOUGHT it...BOUGHT != KILLED. Now Tulip chips have -> > -> Intel logos -> > -> > > on them. At least I'm pretty sure I've seen some...it may -> > -> have been a -> > -> > > nightmare or something. ;) -> > -> > -> > -> > Those el-cheapo Linksys cards that I like because the -> > newer ones rarely -> > -> > fail on me and when they do they are cheap to replace, -> > are Tulip. And -> > -> > they're faster because of it. -> > -> -> > -> I hope you don't mean the EtherFast 10/100 LNE100TX -> > cards... they are -> > -> *way* too sensitive to noisy LANs... I've had to pull -> > several and replace -> > -> them with either Intel Pro/100 adapters, or drop back to -> > some old 3Com -> > -> 3c509 10Mbps combo cards... Of course, YMMV, etc... -> > -> -> > -> -dq -> > -> -> > -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Sep 7 13:00:22 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <200109070435.f874ZdM00920@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: I know - and most Paqs are decent machines but it seems that many people (after dealing with Compaq's "support") get this attitude and from then on stay well away from purchasing another Compaq branded product. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy -> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:36 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: HP & Compaq -> -> -> > -> > The "Compaqq owner" attitude is (after buying said machine) -> that "this is -> > the biggest piece of sh**" -> > -> -> I don't know, I've been pretty happy with the DEC AlphaStation -> 500/333 that I -> bought from Compaq. -> -> Zane -> -> From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 7 13:07:01 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146704A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] ! ! On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: ! > I've got some copies of DOS. I know, I know. Does anyone want them? ! ! If nobody else steps forward (or in it), I'll gladly take any ! copies of ! DOS. Besides my personal "collection", it is handy to have a ! lot of DOS ! manuals for various versions available for use by the students in my ! Microcomputer Operating Systems class. Chuck --- Nevermind me taking them. Fred would put them to better use with his students, as a history lesson ;-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 13:18:20 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146704A@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Nevermind me taking them. Fred would put them to better use with his > students, as a history lesson ;-) I already have enough that nobody need hold back if they want them. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com classes From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 7 13:27:33 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: VAX 4000/500 Upgrade Successful Message-ID: <200109071827.f87IRXn03882@narnia.int.dittman.net> I was successful in upgrading my VAX 4000/300 to a /500. I had the CPU but had to buy MS690 memory to replace my MS670. I also went from 96MB to 128M. Now to find a used /700A or /705A CPU to upgrade further. I was a little worried that my backplane was not of the right revision, but the barcode part number matched that of a /500 and /400 at work, so I wasn't too worried. I'd seen conflicting information when I searched DejaNews^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HGoogleGoups, so I figured I'd better check. If anyone else needs this information, the bardcode part number on all three systems is 54-19354-01. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 7 14:10:23 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146704B@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I'd only store them (for possible future use), if I get them. If someone will actually use it, then it's thiers... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) [mailto:cisin@xenosoft.com] ! Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 2:18 PM ! To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' ! Subject: RE: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc ! ! ! On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! > Nevermind me taking them. Fred would put them to better ! use with his ! > students, as a history lesson ;-) ! ! I already have enough that nobody need hold back if they want them. ! ! -- ! Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com ! classes ! From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 7 16:02:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256FF@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >It would have helped if the installers (before my time) >hadn't wire-tied the cat 5 runs to the nearest 110v A/C >lines... three-foot parallel runs, in fact... My house is done is untwisted bellwire, any kind of cat5 sounds like nirvana to me. CAT5 is shielded twisted pairs isn't it? Why would proximity to 60 hz ac be a problem, or are the network cards just REALLY poorly designed (rejection of common mode noise)? From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:09:15 2001 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model III again In-Reply-To: <200109071406.JAA28130@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Hi, Having got my Model III back together only to discover the CRT *has* decompressed has anyone got a spare they'd like to sell? This one is a 16K non-floppy model with a serial number less than 1400 so I'd like to get it running again! cheers folks, -- adrian/witchy www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - The online Computer museum www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly Gothic shenanigans From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 12:56:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 6, 1 06:23:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3109 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010907/47c5d678/attachment.ksh From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Sep 7 18:04:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Radio Shack sold a 'network' for the Model 3/4 or the CoCo. It was >designed for use in schools and let one 'master' machine (to be operated >by the teacher) communicate with 16 student machines. You could load a >program from disk on the teacher's machine and then transfer it by >CSAVE/CLOAD to all the student machines. Students could transfer their >work (BASIC programms, SCRIPSIT word processor files, etc) back to the >teachers machine in much the same way and have it saved on disk or >printed out. > >I only ever saw it in the catalogues, though. I used one of these networks in 1982/83 with, just as you said, a single master and 16 slave machines. It was built around a Model III with 48k and dual disk drives as the master while the other machines were all 16k cassette-based. We mainly used it just to load programs from disk to the cassette-based machines. I don't recall having a printer connected to it or using the master machine for saving stuff from the slave machines. It worked pretty well though. Anyone know just what additional stuff was needed to do it? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 7 19:15:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> Message-ID: <764.651T2900T757037optimus@canit.se> Cini, Richard skrev: >Hello, all: > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of >keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. >I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the >ZX81 I got in a trade. > Thoughts? If you're not going to use it, you could just as well get any kind of PCB scraps. I've got a sack full of old PC mobos which you could... whatever you'd do with an unassembled kit. The kit was meant to become a computer, not a piece of furniture or an investment of some kind. What pros could there possibly be? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "It's better to have loved and lost, than to be gang raped in a Turkish prison." From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 7 18:32:32 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: Mike Ford "RE: HP & Compaq" (Sep 7, 14:02) References: Message-ID: <10109080032.ZM379@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 7, 14:02, Mike Ford wrote: > >It would have helped if the installers (before my time) > >hadn't wire-tied the cat 5 runs to the nearest 110v A/C > >lines... three-foot parallel runs, in fact... > > My house is done is untwisted bellwire, any kind of cat5 sounds like > nirvana to me. > > CAT5 is shielded twisted pairs isn't it? Why would proximity to 60 hz ac be > a problem, or are the network cards just REALLY poorly designed (rejection > of common mode noise)? Nope, Cat 5 is UTP -- UNshielded twisted pair. It has reasonable common-mode rejection, but nothing is perfect. In long runs, such as you'd find in a typical commercial building infrastructure, you'd notice quite a difference if the UTP was too close to power cables. They're notoriously noisy. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:37:26 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: TRS80 Model III again In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Sep 7, 1 11:09:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 840 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010907/5113a1d6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 19:28:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Sep 7, 1 07:04:00 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1359 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010908/d3278abb/attachment.ksh From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Sep 7 20:36:30 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109070435.f874ZdM00920@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <3B99761E.AE0C2AD2@tiac.net> This is total BS! I have a Compaq AP500 workstation. Its a joy to own and work with, even the sheet metal edges have been smoothed down so there are no sharp edges. The hardware is nearly flawless, but the company is horrible to deal with. "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > The "Compaqq owner" attitude is (after buying said machine) that "this is > > the biggest piece of sh**" > > > > I don't know, I've been pretty happy with the DEC AlphaStation 500/333 that I > bought from Compaq. > > Zane From zaft at azstarnet.com Fri Sep 7 21:17:58 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP EISA network card FT/free Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010907191622.02811dc8@pop.azstarnet.com> I have an HP EISA network card (10BaseT + AUI), it came out of a 486/66ST server. I believe the model # is 27248. For trade (I'm looking for 41256-100 RAM) or free for cost o' shipping. Gordon Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Sep 7 21:34:40 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Networking (was Re: symphony for dot matrix printers) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I assume it was just a little amplifier (op-amp based?) to boost the >cassette output signal from the 'CSAVE-ing' machine to the levels needed >for the cassette input on the 'CLOAD-ing' machine. Oh, and the switch I >mentioned, and connectors. I'll have to dig through my listing of RS part#'s and see if I can pinpoint some info on it. I've always been interested in the set up but that was the one and only time I've either seen or used it. I do remember there being a switchbox for selecting one or multiple machines to receive the data but don't remember anything about the way it was wired up. Given that the diskless machines had cassette recorders plugged up to me standard cassette port, I wonder if there wasn't some kind of interface card for the network connection itself though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Sep 7 21:36:34 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <3B99761E.AE0C2AD2@tiac.net> Message-ID: That was exactly the point - the company is what creates the attitude. The machines are pretty nice and well built and the servers are excellent (well most server platforms are and the cost matches that). The service and support form the company is what makes people "hate" Compaq, not the equipment. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Shannon -> Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:36 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: HP & Compaq -> -> -> This is total BS! -> -> I have a Compaq AP500 workstation. Its a joy to own and work -> with, even the -> sheet metal edges have been smoothed down so there are no sharp edges. -> -> The hardware is nearly flawless, but the company is horrible to -> deal with. -> -> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: -> -> > > -> > > The "Compaqq owner" attitude is (after buying said machine) -> that "this is -> > > the biggest piece of sh**" -> > > -> > -> > I don't know, I've been pretty happy with the DEC AlphaStation -> 500/333 that I -> > bought from Compaq. -> > -> > Zane -> -> From mbg at world.std.com Fri Sep 7 22:18:33 2001 From: mbg at world.std.com (Megan) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq References: <200109041304.f84D46C10439@bg-tc-ppp122.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <200109080318.XAA02877@world.std.com> >>>> So what's everyone think about the newest merger, between HP >>>> and Compaq? > >Wishing you well, any Compaq / HP employees out there. DEC/Compaq/HP... If this goes through, it means I will have worked for three separate companies in five years time, and not had to move my office once... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg KB1FCA | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sat Sep 8 00:24:55 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3B99ABA7.2000102@aurora.regenstrief.org> Cini, Richard wrote: > Hello, all: > > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of > keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. > I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the > ZX81 I got in a trade. > > Thoughts? Probably I'm too late for this thread. But I would keep and at the same time get a second assembled ZX81 to play with. To hell with the monetary value, but it's nice to have one machine to run and another box of parts to see, feel, and show off what it is made of. I recently covered my own future with C64s and I bought two. One to run the other to keep. If there had ever been a kit, I would have kept the kit for the second one. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From technos at nerdland.org Sat Sep 8 00:46:40 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <01C13808.1B1947E0.technos@nerdland.org> On Friday, September 07, 2001 7:04 PM, Jeff Hellige [SMTP:jhellige@earthlink.net] wrote: > saving stuff from the slave machines. It worked pretty well though. > Anyone know just what additional stuff was needed to do it? > > Jeff I played with one of these early on. To load and save files from the slaves? There was just a little third-party bit of 'repeater' software that tried to emulate a CLOAD. Couldn't do anything other than save, tho. The hardware itself was just a pair of RC pairs and a single transistor amp. Think there was some TTL glue, but I can't see it as being terribly important. D'ya know if they ever fixed the mid-bitstream problem that was common early with the Trash and later with the Atari and their MPI over cassette interface? I had one of the Atari setups, nice so long as you were only using it like a multi-cable PtP setup. Jim. From root at diablonet.net Sat Sep 8 00:49:17 2001 From: root at diablonet.net (Netdiablo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: VCB02 pinout? Message-ID: <3B99B14A.805745FB@diablonet.net> Hi! Thanks to the generosity of one list member, I now have a VCB02 boardset to play around with. Unfortunately, I don't have the bulkhead panel for it. Does anyone know what the connector and pinout was for this? On a related note, can the cable used to hook up a keyboard/mouse/monitor on a VAXstation 2000 also be used to connect a keyboard/mouse/monitor to the VCB02 subsystem? It sounds like they're pretty much identical. Thanks, Sean -- Sean Caron http://www.diablonet.net scaron@engin.umich.edu root@diablonet.net From technos at nerdland.org Sat Sep 8 00:53:25 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <01C13809.0C8EF0C0.technos@nerdland.org> On Friday, September 07, 2001 11:19 PM, Megan [SMTP:mbg@world.std.com] wrote: > > If this goes through, it means I will have worked for three > separate companies in five years time, and not had to move > my office once... > > Megan Gentry I've worked for five in just over three. Granted, I've moved my cube, but that was solely motivated by my ambition to gradually get 1) Closer to a coffee pot 2) A window 3) A convenient exit for those 'late days'. through exploiting my co-workers temporary vacancies, and not because I had to. Jim From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Sep 8 00:57:33 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907224941.0201ed20@209.185.79.193> I got a great bunch of artifacts recently from an ex-Digit (DEC Employee) who was finally not going to use his VAX for anything else any more. These included: A set a PAKs that rivals the Hobbyist offering and exceeds it in that it has a PL/I and APL PAK. Several RRD40 caddys and a couple of the SCSI version of the RRD40 (I'm on the look out for the non-SCSI version, will trade one for one!) A VAXServer 3100/M48 (yet another one I didn't have yet.) with all the option cards (multi-serial, DMF32, etc) A bunch of manuals, including the VT103 users guide and a bunch of VAX 11/730 manuals (including the CPU technical manual!) An Ultrix-32 Condist for VAX (v3.0) Three VMS Condists (5.2, 6.0, and 6.1) Cables for various things. Some RTL replacement parts for the PDP-5 !!!! Bits of ephemera from the DEC hey day (VAX brochures, DECUS disks, etc) Some more docs Available for trade: TU58 Technical Manual TU58 User's Guide RL02 User's Guide RL01/RL02 manual Some DECConnect stuff and a crimping tool with about 20 MMJ "heads" Lots of little detail parts that are so hard to come by when you need them. --Chuck From mranalog at home.com Sat Sep 8 02:07:34 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: My latest find Message-ID: <3B99C3B6.91AF77C5@home.com> I've managed to push back the age of the oldest computer user manual in my collection by another 42 years. SCREW PROPELLER COMPUTER Geo. McDermott 52 pages, hardbound, first edition Taylor and Carpenter, 1902 This book describes a mechanical computer with two separate rotating discs to enter variables and used to calculate the dimensions and proportions of screw propellers The last chapter is entitled "Directions for operating the computer" with 7 example problems. Unfortunately there are no pictures of the computer in the book so I'll have to wait until the book attracts the computer. :) --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 8 01:50:40 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: References: <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> <3B8883CF.AD4F545E@internet1.net> Message-ID: > I've seen brand new systems come from Dell with little >stickers in place labeling all of the ports. Not just the little >icons, but it all spelled out. Frankly, I'm suprised a lot of people >even find the power button. BTW those stickers are color coded too. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Sep 8 02:26:15 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I used one of these networks in 1982/83 with, just as you > said, a single master and 16 slave machines. It was built around a > Model III with 48k and dual disk drives as the master while the other > machines were all 16k cassette-based. We mainly used it just to load > programs from disk to the cassette-based machines. I don't recall > having a printer connected to it or using the master machine for > saving stuff from the slave machines. It worked pretty well though. > Anyone know just what additional stuff was needed to do it? > >From what I've been told, the system was designed by Tony Pepin. This is kind of neat for me since at one time I owned (and may still, I'm not sure *grin*) a Model I that had his name, address and phone # engraved on the case. (I also owned a Model I that at one time was the personal machine of the editor of 80 US Micro - that was pretty cool too. *laughs*) g. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 8 02:29:12 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Apple Imagewriter 4 pen plotter pens In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just bought a box of Apple Imagewriter 4 pen plotter pens (couple dozen sealed bags of 4). Anybody know more about this device? Looks to be strictly Apple IIgs era. Simple searches haven't turned up much beyond FS ads from a couple years ago. From kd7bcy at teleport.com Sat Sep 8 06:05:09 2001 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? Message-ID: For those of you in Portland, OR, the Wacky Willy's on NW Vaughn St. has a LOT of cool stuff. A bunch of Macs and PC's(including several large Compaq servers with either 486 or 586 and lots of HD's... Might go back and get one myself for $100) and TONS of furniture of the odd kind. Seems that OHSU has turned the place into their new dumping grounds. Sadly, the Macs were all missing the hard drive, and most of the PC's have either been wiped or stripped of drives also. Lots of Compaqs! Anyway, I picked up some odd parts as well as an Epson HX-20 with an expansion unit and micro-cassette drive cartridge and a cute plastic carrying case. I should be able to figure it out easily, and my PX-8 finally has a companion! The item that really stumps me appears to be a terminal of some sort. It's in a very small box (6x8x1) and has a Z180 in it, next to a large(160 pin) unmarked chip. It has VGA video, DIN-5 keyboard, parallel printer, and two RJ-style(6 pins, and an offset clip) COM ports. It needs a small headphone plug for power with 12v, so I need to dig out my crappy universal power supply and see what blows up(I've noticed that it tends to put out a few extra volts... 12v setting is usually 18v with no load and closer to 13-15 with small loads) The only markings are on the edge of the board and on the EPROMs. The board says "01000117 REV.01 MAGPIE SSPC" and the EPROMs say "6086 7/6 1600 EL 0" and "EL 1" for the next chip. As soon as I can find my power wart I'll post an update about the size of the flames spitting out of it ;-) (NOOooooo! Come back magic smoke!!!) -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From kd7bcy at teleport.com Sat Sep 8 06:42:00 2001 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? Message-ID: OK, maybe it's not... I found the power supply. No smoke or flames. Not much of anything. The green LED turns on when I plug in the power, but the entire thing(including my power cube) goes dead when I plug in the monitor. It might need a special monitor. It DOES, however, respond to the keyboard. Caps, num and scroll locks all function and those lights blink twice when the power is turned on and then it bleeps at me. I guess the next step is to plug a printer into it and see what happens, but I probably won't get around to digging out a parallel printer until next week. BTW, my power supply is getting worse. The 7.5v setting puts out 12.5, and the 12v setting puts out 22!!! Ouch! I'm thinking it's time to get another one. Or better, make one. A nice regulated supply. I don't think it harmed the box though, since it has a voltage regulator right inside. -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From jhfine at idirect.com Sat Sep 8 07:27:51 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907224941.0201ed20@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3B9A0EC7.AF289C10@idirect.com> >Chuck McManis wrote: > I got a great bunch of artifacts recently from an ex-Digit (DEC Employee) > who was finally not going to use his VAX for anything else any more. > Some more docs > Available for trade: > TU58 Technical Manual > TU58 User's Guide Jerome Fine replies: I could probably use the TU58 manuals, however, I would rather see them sent to someone who will scan them and make them available to everyone. Since I have only RT-11/PDP-11 hardware stuff, what might help? What about a set of out of print RT-11 DOCs? As far as I know, these are allowed to be reproduced since they are no longer available? Can these be scanned as well? Also, I hope to soon receive an 11/73 manual? Could this also be scanned? I realize that it is great to have our own copies of these manuals, but I am now hoping that they can all be scanned and thereby preserved before that is no longer possible. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From matt at knm.yi.org Sat Sep 8 07:59:38 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: IBM DOS 3.0, MS-DOS 5.x etc In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907011559.034cde40@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, > I've got some copies of DOS. I know, I know. Does anyone want them? > > I've got PC-DOS 3.0 in the original IBM slipcase > > I've got two copies of MS-DOS 5, one is still shrinkwrapped > > I think I have PC-DOS 3.2 If noone else is intrested - a friend of mine collects copies of dos (I think cause they take up less space than machines) He's away this weekend, be back monday/tuesday sometime I think. - -- Matt - --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE7mhZAJg6Lp+7kjX8RAjwBAKC0dve3Mypa5iYAEJR9/HyVSXQgLgCfVV5V NuAO0OyR2gZNDY+pFTlKlNU= =K9+m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rhudson at cnonline.net Sat Sep 8 09:05:50 2001 From: rhudson at cnonline.net (Ron Hudson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:19 2005 Subject: [Fwd: Undeliverable Mail] test reply References: <007c01c13813$c56be080$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3B9A25BE.40204@cnonline.net> Replying to this as a test. Jay West wrote: > Ron; > > Do you have any idea why your replies were rejected by the mail server? I'd > be happy to look into this for you. Did you get any error message back with > headers intact or anything? > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Sep 8 09:33:50 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From what I've been told, the system was designed by Tony Pepin. This is >kind of neat for me since at one time I owned (and may still, I'm not sure >*grin*) a Model I that had his name, address and phone # engraved on the >case. (I also owned a Model I that at one time was the personal machine >of the editor of 80 US Micro - that was pretty cool too. *laughs*) That's cool...it's always neat to know any specific history of a machine like that. One of my Model 2000's was gotten from Roy Soltoff of Misosys. He had bought it to get into software development for the 2000 but then ended up never using it when the market never materialized. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 8 08:25:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: <3B9A0EC7.AF289C10@idirect.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907224941.0201ed20@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has talked about in the past, is it? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 8 09:18:41 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: <3B8942C6.EA6F776D@internet1.net> References: <20010826061951.LVFK8611.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: >Remember this is socket 7, I can't use a Duron or P3 in this >motherboard. > >Plus, this confuses me, why do all the vendors stock the AMD K6II? AMD >made a K6-3 that was supposed to be better becasue it's cache ran at >full speed, unike the K6-2. PCliquidator.com often has a cheap deal on K6-3 processors, just make sure your bios supports the chip (its from a laptop, but common) From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 8 10:07:06 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <01C13809.0C8EF0C0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: In 3 yrs time I worked for 5 as well but the last one is me, I've gone to self-employment and am about as happy with my employer now as a person can get, even though I work 300% more than for anyone else. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jim Tuck -> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 12:53 AM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> -> -> On Friday, September 07, 2001 11:19 PM, Megan [SMTP:mbg@world.std.com] -> wrote: -> > -> > If this goes through, it means I will have worked for three -> > separate companies in five years time, and not had to move -> > my office once... -> > -> > Megan Gentry -> -> I've worked for five in just over three. Granted, I've moved my cube, -> but that was -> solely motivated by my ambition to gradually get -> -> 1) Closer to a coffee pot -> 2) A window -> 3) A convenient exit for those 'late days'. -> -> through exploiting my co-workers temporary vacancies, and not because I -> had to. -> -> Jim -> -> -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 8 10:07:04 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Packard Bells are all color coded too but they were intended mostly for the home market and small biz. They even came with a setup chart, as do some of the new machines as well as scanners, printers, etc. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford -> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 1:51 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? -> -> -> > I've seen brand new systems come from Dell with little -> >stickers in place labeling all of the ports. Not just the little -> >icons, but it all spelled out. Frankly, I'm suprised a lot of people -> >even find the power button. -> -> BTW those stickers are color coded too. -> -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 8 10:15:20 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: My latest find In-Reply-To: <3B99C3B6.91AF77C5@home.com> Message-ID: Wonder if this manual had anything to do with the design of the Titanic propellers? It's sure old enough to have been used in that time frame, or fairly close. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Doug Coward -> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 2:08 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: My latest find -> -> -> I've managed to push back the age of -> the oldest computer user manual in my -> collection by another 42 years. -> -> SCREW PROPELLER COMPUTER -> Geo. McDermott -> 52 pages, hardbound, first edition -> Taylor and Carpenter, 1902 -> -> This book describes a mechanical computer -> with two separate rotating discs to enter -> variables and used to calculate the dimensions -> and proportions of screw propellers -> The last chapter is entitled "Directions -> for operating the computer" with 7 example -> problems. -> Unfortunately there are no pictures of the -> computer in the book so I'll have to wait -> until the book attracts the computer. :) -> --Doug -> ========================================= -> Doug Coward -> @ home in Poulsbo, WA -> -> Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center -> http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog -> ========================================= -> From allain at panix.com Sat Sep 8 10:27:56 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: FSOT 3 Message-ID: <001901c1387a$de81d220$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> My community is having a mass tag sale around me so kinda getting into the spirit. Free for Postage else TOSS! Bubbl-tec Bubbl-Machine literature pack. Sheets for DEC LSI-11, SBC-80, Multibus Bubble memory Wyse Literature Pages on the WY-30,50,60,85,99GT terminals AT&T 6386 WGS sales specifications card. Four Best offers takes: DEC "Microcomputer Processors" 1978-79 Reference manual on the LSI-11. Softbound, 250 or so pages. John A. There's a few computer related items on my lawn too to test the waters. From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 8 10:33:13 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Sep 08, 2001 10:33:50 AM Message-ID: <200109081533.f88FXD205960@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >From what I've been told, the system was designed by Tony Pepin. This is > >kind of neat for me since at one time I owned (and may still, I'm not sure > >*grin*) a Model I that had his name, address and phone # engraved on the > >case. (I also owned a Model I that at one time was the personal machine > >of the editor of 80 US Micro - that was pretty cool too. *laughs*) > > That's cool...it's always neat to know any specific history > of a machine like that. One of my Model 2000's was gotten from Roy > Soltoff of Misosys. He had bought it to get into software > development for the 2000 but then ended up never using it when the > market never materialized. Indeed. I am fortunate to have the Dennis Bathory-Kitsz's personal LNW-80. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 7 10:33:41 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: My latest find References: <3B99C3B6.91AF77C5@home.com> Message-ID: <3B98E8D5.3832AA64@internet1.net> Wow, thats neat, I didn't know such a thing existed. It's too bad it doesn't have any pictures, Though. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Doug Coward wrote: > > I've managed to push back the age of > the oldest computer user manual in my > collection by another 42 years. > > SCREW PROPELLER COMPUTER > Geo. McDermott > 52 pages, hardbound, first edition > Taylor and Carpenter, 1902 > > This book describes a mechanical computer > with two separate rotating discs to enter > variables and used to calculate the dimensions > and proportions of screw propellers > The last chapter is entitled "Directions > for operating the computer" with 7 example > problems. > Unfortunately there are no pictures of the > computer in the book so I'll have to wait > until the book attracts the computer. :) > --Doug > ========================================= > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 8 10:41:29 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 07, 2001 10:57:33 PM Message-ID: <200109081541.f88FfTv05982@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I got a great bunch of artifacts recently from an ex-Digit (DEC Employee) > who was finally not going to use his VAX for anything else any more. They are a good source of interesting stuff. I got Autocad for VMS that way. > These included: > A set a PAKs that rivals the Hobbyist offering > and exceeds it in that it has a PL/I and APL PAK. I asked about PL/I not being included in the Hobbyist licensing program and was told that was because Compaq no longer owns PL/I. I guess APL isn't in the Hobbyist license set as that hasn't been a deliverable for a long time. Does anyone know when it was last included in the ConDist sets? If so I can look for it. I have several year's worth of ConDist CDs but have lost the paperwork that listed the included products. Of course a PAK generator solves the problem of missing PAKs quite nicely. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Sep 8 10:42:25 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010907224941.0201ed20@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: >I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it >works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has >talked about in the past, is it? Mike, It's full specs can be found here: http://support.necmitsubishi.com/nec/original/ms2/index.htm One of the nice things about it is that it will allow both analog and TTL inputs as well as sync low enough to be used with the Amiga native graphics modes. It will also sync to some of the oddball TTL stuff such as the TRS-80 Model 2000's graphics adapter. It's a pretty flexible monitor. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From matt at knm.yi.org Sat Sep 8 10:47:41 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Are office people really that, umm shall we say...slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi, Now I'm sure this *has* to be off topic, so I'll try and make it short and sweet. > >Remember this is socket 7, I can't use a Duron or P3 in this > >motherboard. Ohhh - familiar. I had a K6-200 die the other day (fan siezed up and processor fried) along with some data loss on the hard disk including the partition table. My answer was to say "This box was due for an upgrade within 18 months anyway. I recommend we replace mobo, case, and hard disk" (it already had 256M of PC133 due to an earlier upgrade). > >Plus, this confuses me, why do all the vendors stock the AMD K6II? AMD > >made a K6-3 that was supposed to be better becasue it's cache ran at > >full speed, unike the K6-2. > > PCliquidator.com often has a cheap deal on K6-3 processors, just make sure > your bios supports the chip (its from a laptop, but common) I always saw more K6-2's on the shelves than K6-3's. I suspect AMD never really made many K6-3's, as the athlon followed not that long after. Where are there were already a lot of K6-2's floating about on the market. All this modern stuff spoils people. I remember when it was a novelty to have a battery backed clock in your XT! -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Sep 8 11:18:06 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <200109081541.f88FfTv05982@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908091522.02357eb0@209.185.79.193> At 10:41 AM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote: >I asked about PL/I not being included in the Hobbyist licensing program and >was told that was because Compaq no longer owns PL/I. I guess APL isn't in >the Hobbyist license set as that hasn't been a deliverable for a long time. >Does anyone know when it was last included in the ConDist sets? If so I >can look for it. I have several year's worth of ConDist CDs but have lost >the paperwork that listed the included products. The first disk of every ConDist has the all paperwork on it as postscript and text files. You can print it out again if you lose it :-) I believe the '94 and '96 ConDists both have APL on them. >Of course a PAK generator solves the problem of missing PAKs quite nicely. Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and Compaq doing the dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost at some point. If Compaq would just say "screw it, the next time someone requests a license give them a non-expiring one." my heart would rest easier... --Chuck From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 8 11:26:10 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 Revisited... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.20010906105420.01181ec0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010908122610.01257378@mail.30below.com> More comments follow, but I've cracked some of my older Rainbow mags over the last few days,and I found the company that sold the original XPNDR1 (and they had an XPNDR2 card as well, so you could still plug in your disk controller...) Robotic Microsystems Box 30807 Seattle, WA 98103 The cards sold for $19.95 each, or $36 for 2 cards; at least that's what they advertised for on page 139 of the January '86 Rainbow. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >> Now, the first thing I'm going to do is put on a 74LS245 bus transceiver on >> the data lines, and a pair of 74LS244's to buffer the address lines... > >Do you have a suitable signal to enable that 245 so that it only outputs >data onto the CoCo's data bus when chips on the Xpander are being read? >You don't want that 245 to contend with the ROM and RAM in the CoCo Righto -- but I do want a ROM socket on my board, so I will have address decoding (prolly for 8K, tho) to be able to access that. I am *planning* on this being a large project... ;-) As of right now, I have (2) 74LS244's buffering the address lines, but there's more work on the way... For a blick of what I currently have designed in Autocad (warning, it's a 130K jpg, and it's a *rough* design currently), go here: http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/xpndr1/coco1.jpg >Shouldn't be a problem. I've buffered E and Q many times without >difficulty. As a purist, I'd use 2 sections of the same chip to buffer >them (2 buffers in the same chip are likely to have similar propagation >delays) but actually it shouldn't matter much. That'll be the 3rd '244, which I have to map in after some of the address decoding... >Also look into the use of multiplexers ('151, '150, maybe with one extra >NOT gate) as programmable 'gates'. I've used these to generate chip >selects, buffer enable signals, etc in the past. Thanks for the advice. I found that Fairchild has a lot of datasheets on the web (in pdf format) so at least I can get pinouts & whatnot fairly easily... I have used multiplexers in one project in the past, so I should be able to figure out how to use them in this new context... but it might take a little brainpower on my part. ;-) Altho I do enjoy playing with 74'series chips, if anyone out there has a cheap CPLD/PAL/GAL programmer they wanna part with, keep me in mind! I'd love to tinker with those... :-) Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 8 11:39:13 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers Message-ID: <005201c13886$1bcfc960$9ff19a8d@ajp166> From: Jim Tuck >D'ya know if they ever fixed the mid-bitstream problem that was common >early with the >Trash and later with the Atari and their MPI over cassette interface? I >had one of the >Atari setups, nice so long as you were only using it like a multi-cable >PtP setup. Yes. One fix for the cload TRS80 problem was an internal counter based oneshot that would clear the RS flop at the ttl end of the CLOAD read hardware. The interface depended on the transistion detector being reset by software and sometimes that didnt happen and it would get lost. The other problem was if you were doing back to back (cpu to cpu) CLOAD CSAVE the clock on one could be way off and after a minute or so of data transfer the recieving system would get behind. Allison From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 11:55:19 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Updated: DEC PDP-10 Emulation Web Page Message-ID: I think I forgot to announce the webpage here a month or so when I did it up. Anyway I've just updated it to reflect that beta's of simh 2.7 are available now, AND more importantly that a ITS distribution is now available! It can be accessed at http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html The webpage details where to get an emulator (including links to Windows binaries), the installation documents for your OS of choice (TOPS-10, TOPS-20, or ITS), your OS of choice (well, at least the versions that are supported), and any doc's that are available online for the OS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Sep 8 12:14:59 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: symphony for dot matrix printers In-Reply-To: <200109081533.f88FXD205960@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: > > >From what I've been told, the system was designed by Tony Pepin. This is > > >kind of neat for me since at one time I owned (and may still, I'm not sure > > >*grin*) a Model I that had his name, address and phone # engraved on the > > >case. (I also owned a Model I that at one time was the personal machine > > >of the editor of 80 US Micro - that was pretty cool too. *laughs*) > > > > That's cool...it's always neat to know any specific history > > of a machine like that. One of my Model 2000's was gotten from Roy > > Soltoff of Misosys. He had bought it to get into software > > development for the 2000 but then ended up never using it when the > > market never materialized. > > Indeed. I am fortunate to have the Dennis Bathory-Kitsz's personal > LNW-80. > -- Ok, that pretty much pegs the cool meter. :) g. From louiss at gate.net Sat Sep 8 12:42:35 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109081742.NAA07771@barry.mail.mindspring.net> On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 06:25:36 -0700, Mike Ford wrote: #I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it #works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has #talked about in the past, is it? # Yes, it can do analog and digital, and sync down to 15 Hz, which means it can function with oddball RGB outputs such as the Tandy Color Computer 3 and the Commodore Amiga. I use one for CGA (digital) mode with an IBM PC-XT 286, it has a very nice picture. Louis From louiss at gate.net Sat Sep 8 12:51:10 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <200109070226.WAA04716@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200109081751.NAA26721@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> I have done some research, and since this subject seems to only interest me, I will respond to myself. >From what I have found out, the various IEEE-488 cards do not interface with a PC in a standard way. Rather, each has its own proprietary interface, and thus uses its own driver. It therefore appears that software specifically written for one card will not work with another, at least without some hacking. The Commodore Pet floppy drive transfer software for the Brain Boxes card appears unknown. There is some information on a do it yourself card to allow a PC to communicate with a Pet drive, but not on this already written software. Therefore, I see no alternate but to appeal to my British brethren regarding any such card they may find in their travels. Tony, Pete, et al, I beseech you! To each of you I say, "Hast thou a response?" Louis On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:26:27 -0400 (EDT), Louis Schulman wrote: #Someone across the lake sent a post the other day about a Brain Boxes PC Elite IEEE-488 card and its #supposed ability to transfer files to and from a Commodore Pet drive. # #This seems possible, and the software does exist. Has anyone ever transferred files to and/or from a Pet #floppy drive using the GPIB interface? # #If it works, does anyone have an ISA or PCI IEEE-488 card they would like to part with? (I have one for the #Apple II, and would trade). I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works with their card or any #card. If the former, any of you British chaps want to part with such a card (these cards seem not to be #available in the colonies)? # #Louis # From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 8 12:51:57 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 08, 2001 09:18:06 AM Message-ID: <200109081751.f88Hpv206233@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >I asked about PL/I not being included in the Hobbyist licensing program and > >was told that was because Compaq no longer owns PL/I. I guess APL isn't in > >the Hobbyist license set as that hasn't been a deliverable for a long time. > >Does anyone know when it was last included in the ConDist sets? If so I > >can look for it. I have several year's worth of ConDist CDs but have lost > >the paperwork that listed the included products. > > The first disk of every ConDist has the all paperwork on it as postscript > and text files. You can print it out again if you lose it :-) I believe the > '94 and '96 ConDists both have APL on them. Yes, but having someone point to the set saves me having to go through all my sets looking at the first CD. I'll check my '96 set. > >Of course a PAK generator solves the problem of missing PAKs quite nicely. > > Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and Compaq doing the > dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost at some point. > If Compaq would just say "screw it, the next time someone requests a > license give them a non-expiring one." my heart would rest easier... Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will go away? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jeremy.barker at btinternet.com Sat Sep 8 13:34:11 2001 From: jeremy.barker at btinternet.com (Jeremy Barker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Font used in d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo? Message-ID: <3B9A64A3.F9D39703@btinternet.com> The Digital logo does not use any known font because it was hand drawn by a graphic artist. It looks very similar to the Helvetica/Univers "Swiss" type fonts but is not identical to any of them. As someone else has noted there is a PostScript version of the logo. IIRC it was produced by digitising a large film master which revealed some interesting things - for example, the two i characters aren't identical. For producing print copy before the age of PostScript Digital used dry transfer sheets that were custom made in a variety of sizes. I'm afraid that I cannot help on the other font(s) used in the pdp logos and on cabinet panels. jb - London, UK From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Sep 8 14:59:21 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225707@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Have you brought up an interim fix - either clip the ties and support the > cat5 bundle off the conduits? OR untie it, wrap the bundles with common > aluminum foil (yeah it works) and then retie them using looser cable ties? > Might be a nice way to pick up a few extra bucks on a weekend and make them > happy at the same time. I've brought in consultants offering to do everything from a similar temporary fix to a complete re-wire.... but there's no acknowledgement on the part of said former supervisor who is also the closet thing we have to a comptroller that we actually have a problem. He said to drop it until I could PROVE the wiring wss the problem, and however that might be done would likely require resources I don't have. Said former supervisor and the 30% co-owner make all final determinations as to what $$$ can be spent purely on cash-flow and profitability... ideas such as IT-spending-as-investment are total anathema. Most IT spending gets done during the end-of-year-write-it- off-as-supplies spending orgy. -dq From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 8 15:12:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Sep 8, 1 04:42:00 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1890 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010908/6040a064/attachment.ksh From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 8 15:50:15 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 Message-ID: Just posted it - 286 to 386 upgrade in box. Item 1273362665 for non-html readers. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1273362665 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010908/2a0fb84a/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 8 16:09:37 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225707@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: Make syou wonder why they hired you based on skills and experience huh? Been through the same myself and finally told them to get bent and went into business for myself. Now when a client argues that my suggestion or fix is BS, I simply write out the bill for the time spent and leave them to do it again with someone else. They generally stop me before the door or are calling me shortly after the next guy (at twice my fees) tells them the same thing. They could go with the next guy but then they calculate time against fees and my experience over #2 and I generally have no further problems with said client again in the future. One of my past employers did the same to me, they ended up going with an expensive contractor to correct the problems instead of in-house while I was there so they blew about 6x what it should have cost in-house, even if they paid me overtime for weekends. Of course the contractor took their time too so the end cost was way up there. Needless to say the GM there noticed my written suggestion while they were in the process of this contracted overhaul and the IS manager is now working for someone else - not at $900 wk but at $490 wk. Still too much for what the jerk does in my opinion, he does less than the warehouse people at $250 wk. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman -> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 2:59 PM -> To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' -> Subject: RE: HP & Compaq -> -> -> > Have you brought up an interim fix - either clip the ties and -> support the -> > cat5 bundle off the conduits? OR untie it, wrap the bundles with common -> > aluminum foil (yeah it works) and then retie them using looser -> cable ties? -> > Might be a nice way to pick up a few extra bucks on a weekend -> and make them -> > happy at the same time. -> -> I've brought in consultants offering to do everything from a -> similar temporary fix to a complete re-wire.... but there's -> no acknowledgement on the part of said former supervisor -> who is also the closet thing we have to a comptroller that we -> actually have a problem. He said to drop it until I could -> PROVE the wiring wss the problem, and however that might be -> done would likely require resources I don't have. -> -> Said former supervisor and the 30% co-owner make all final -> determinations as to what $$$ can be spent purely on cash-flow -> and profitability... ideas such as IT-spending-as-investment -> are total anathema. -> -> Most IT spending gets done during the end-of-year-write-it- -> off-as-supplies spending orgy. -> -> -dq -> -> From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 17:41:55 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <200109081751.f88Hpv206233@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 08, 2001 09:18:06 AM Message-ID: >> Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and Compaq doing the >> dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost at some point. >> If Compaq would just say "screw it, the next time someone requests a >> license give them a non-expiring one." my heart would rest easier... > >Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will go away? I've been worried about it for several years. What ticks me off is you can buy a Hobbyist package from Compaq for Tru64, and it has non-expiring packs, and CD's. Why can't they do that for OpenVMS? I'd gladly pay $200-300 for that! Which is a lot more than the $99 for Tru64. The real joke being the Tru64 hobbyist shipped for the first couple weeks with an OpenVMS Condist bundled in (someone made a major mistake)! Unfortunatly I wasn't lucky enough to get one, but a friend did. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 8 15:31:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: CoCo Xpndr1 Revisited... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010908122610.01257378@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 8, 1 12:26:10 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5085 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010908/c2d78d29/attachment.ksh From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Sep 8 18:16:53 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: APL (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX) In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908091522.02357eb0@209.185.79.193> References: <200109081541.f88FfTv05982@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010908161451.02812de8@pop.azstarnet.com> One of the sad things about this is that somewhat 'obscure' languages like APL, PL/1, even LISP are not being transmitted to new generations of programmers. Myself, I would dearly love to have all the languages available for my VAX, including APL, LISP, and (yes) Snobol. (I'm not sure DEC ever did a Snobol for VMS, though, I think it just ran on TOPS-10). Gordon At 09:18 AM 9/8/2001 -0700, you wrote: >At 10:41 AM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote: >>I asked about PL/I not being included in the Hobbyist licensing program and >>was told that was because Compaq no longer owns PL/I. I guess APL isn't in >>the Hobbyist license set as that hasn't been a deliverable for a long time. >>Does anyone know when it was last included in the ConDist sets? If so I >>can look for it. I have several year's worth of ConDist CDs but have lost >>the paperwork that listed the included products. > >The first disk of every ConDist has the all paperwork on it as postscript >and text files. You can print it out again if you lose it :-) I believe >the '94 and '96 ConDists both have APL on them. Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From vaxman at qwest.net Sat Sep 8 19:36:05 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: APL (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010908161451.02812de8@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: I programmed in Snobol for a VAX, though I don't recall if it was VMS or Ultrix... This was 15 or so years ago in school... Still have the book for it too :) Clint On Sat, 8 Sep 2001, Gordon C. Zaft wrote: > > One of the sad things about this is that somewhat 'obscure' > languages like APL, PL/1, even LISP are not being transmitted to new > generations of programmers. > > Myself, I would dearly love to have all the languages available > for my VAX, including APL, LISP, and (yes) Snobol. (I'm not sure DEC ever > did a Snobol for VMS, though, I think it just ran on TOPS-10). > > Gordon > At 09:18 AM 9/8/2001 -0700, you wrote: > >At 10:41 AM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > >>I asked about PL/I not being included in the Hobbyist licensing program and > >>was told that was because Compaq no longer owns PL/I. I guess APL isn't in > >>the Hobbyist license set as that hasn't been a deliverable for a long time. > >>Does anyone know when it was last included in the ConDist sets? If so I > >>can look for it. I have several year's worth of ConDist CDs but have lost > >>the paperwork that listed the included products. > > > >The first disk of every ConDist has the all paperwork on it as postscript > >and text files. You can print it out again if you lose it :-) I believe > >the '94 and '96 ConDists both have APL on them. > > > Gordon Zaft > zaft@azstarnet.com > > > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Sep 8 20:35:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: "Louis Schulman" "Re: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet" (Sep 8, 13:51) References: <200109081751.NAA26721@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <10109090235.ZM1214@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 8, 13:51, Louis Schulman wrote: > I have done some research, and since this subject seems to only interest me, I will respond to myself. > I see no alternate but to appeal to my British brethren regarding any such card they may find in > their travels. Tony, Pete, et al, I beseech you! To each of you I say, "Hast thou a response?" Not a very helpful one, I'm afraid. I actually visited Brain Boxes not long after they moved to Wavertree Technology Park, and at that time they had a respectable portfolio of IEEE-488 devices, and I noticed a few PETs and other machines around. That was over ten years ago and even then they were looking at other product areas. I've never had any contact with them since, so unless you can get any response from them direct, I haven't any suggestions. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 8 22:25:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 08, 2001 03:41:55 PM Message-ID: <200109090325.f893PeV06921@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and Compaq doing the > >> dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost at some point. > >> If Compaq would just say "screw it, the next time someone requests a > >> license give them a non-expiring one." my heart would rest easier... > > > >Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will go away? > > I've been worried about it for several years. What ticks me off is you can > buy a Hobbyist package from Compaq for Tru64, and it has non-expiring > packs, and CD's. Why can't they do that for OpenVMS? I'd gladly pay > $200-300 for that! Which is a lot more than the $99 for Tru64. The real > joke being the Tru64 hobbyist shipped for the first couple weeks with an > OpenVMS Condist bundled in (someone made a major mistake)! Unfortunatly I > wasn't lucky enough to get one, but a friend did. I was one of the lucky ones to get the OpenVMS ConDist after ordering the Tru64 Hobbyist package. The package wasn't just the ConDist, it also included PAKs. The package was for people in the developer's program. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Sep 8 22:44:37 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: 37 pin connector on VAXServer Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908203924.033dd200@209.185.79.193> I've found that the 37 pin connector on the back of the VAXServer 3100 is a DECNet connector. Depending on the pigtail it connects to either a V35 plug (big square thing) or a DB25 that connected to a DEC synchronous modem. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Sep 8 22:55:56 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <200109081751.f88Hpv206233@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908204714.026a2c40@209.185.79.193> At 12:51 PM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote: >Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will go away? >Eric Dittman No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. People like HP and Compaq are starting to layoff people who they actually still have a use for in order to cut costs. What's the ROI on the Hobbyist program? Zilch! So it gives them some good press but it also causes their operations folks to get calls from folks who are trying to find spares for machines they never heard of. So they will kill it, I just hope they give out lifetime PAKs before they do. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 23:18:43 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908204714.026a2c40@209.185.79.193> References: <200109081751.f88Hpv206233@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. People like HP and Compaq >are starting to layoff people who they actually still have a use for in >order to cut costs. What's the ROI on the Hobbyist program? Zilch! So it >gives them some good press but it also causes their operations folks to get >calls from folks who are trying to find spares for machines they never >heard of. So they will kill it, I just hope they give out lifetime PAKs >before they do. > >--Chuck One thought on ROI. Look at the Freeware CD V4, now look at the V5 CD's, there is some definite ROI of the type they were looking for. Plus, how many people buy systems, media, and documentation from them as a result of the program? I've done all three. Still, I fear you're right. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dittman at dittman.net Sun Sep 9 00:03:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 08, 2001 08:55:56 PM Message-ID: <200109090503.f8953q407142@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 12:51 PM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > >Do you mean you are worried the Hobbyist program will go away? > >Eric Dittman > > No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. People like HP and Compaq > are starting to layoff people who they actually still have a use for in > order to cut costs. What's the ROI on the Hobbyist program? Zilch! So it > gives them some good press but it also causes their operations folks to get > calls from folks who are trying to find spares for machines they never > heard of. So they will kill it, I just hope they give out lifetime PAKs > before they do. Compaq authorizes the Hobbyist program, but they don't do much else. They don't pay to maintain the program, they don't give away the distributions, they don't provide the PAKs. I don't think the Hobbyist program costs Compaq more than a minimal amount. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sun Sep 9 00:04:44 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: 37 pin connector on VAXServer In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 08, 2001 08:44:37 PM Message-ID: <200109090504.f8954iq07150@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I've found that the 37 pin connector on the back of the VAXServer 3100 is a > DECNet connector. Depending on the pigtail it connects to either a V35 plug > (big square thing) or a DB25 that connected to a DEC synchronous modem. It sounds like a synchronous serial adapter that can be used for DECnet, not a DECnet-only adapter. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 9 00:17:04 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908204714.026a2c40@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <001701c138ee$aa712c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> >No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. Some questions from me. The Hobbyist program is from Encompass, is that a wholly owned subsidiary of Compaq? I thought the Encompass thing meant it was already outsourced. When an Encompass liscence is called up are there any limits to it (Time, Features)? I already heard what was said about marginal compilers not being present, a checkmark for that one. A word or two on what a PAK and a Condist are for the newbies would be nice. (I guess I thought a PAK was a liscence; so then are you saying liscences aren't lifetime?) John A. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 9 01:17:05 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <001701c138ee$aa712c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908204714.026a2c40@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908230717.02028eb0@209.185.79.193> At 01:17 AM 9/9/01 -0400, you wrote: > >No, I _know_ the Hobbyist program will go away. > >Some questions from me. >The Hobbyist program is from Encompass, is that a wholly owned > subsidiary of Compaq? I thought the Encompass thing meant it > was already outsourced. Encompass is a User's group that is funded by Compaq. The User's group (and in particular the Dallas chapter) administers the program. >When an Encompass liscence is called up are there any limits to it > (Time, Features)? I already heard what was said about marginal > compilers not being present, a checkmark for that one. All Hobbyist VMS licenses are good for 1 year from the date they are issued. They must then be renewed. All layered products (each with their own license) are also 1 year licenses but my experience has been that they are 1 yr from your last renewel. So if you request them with 1 month to go on your DECUS^h^h^h^h^hEncompass membership they expire in one month. >A word or two on what a PAK and a Condist are for the newbies > would be nice. (I guess I thought a PAK was a liscence; so then > are you saying liscences aren't lifetime?) A ConDist is a "Consolidated Distribution" and it contains copies of all the software that is current for a particular platform at a given instance in time. If a new release of the OS has occurred since the last ConDist issue (generally at least twice and perhaps 4 times per year) a copy of that is included. Otherwise, it isn't. The CD version has anywhere from 8 to 15 CDs with packages each in their own directories on a particular CD (the index tells you which one). You need a particular PAK (license) in order to run the various utility. Not all layered products are licensed through the hobbiest program, so there is more on the ConDist than you can use. Typically the licenses that DEC issued to its customers did _not_ expire and were good on any release of VMS past the one they were issued for (so a 5.5 license would still work on a 6.0 or even 7.x release) however they were limited to the "class" of computer they would license, so if it were issued for a MicroVAX II and the customer upgraded to a MicroVAX III they would have to buy more "units". Generally you need a VAX-VMS and VMS-USER PAK to run the basic OS on a single node. You need a CLUSTER license to cluster nodes and each node in the cluster needs its own VMS PAK. Workstations (things with heads) need different licenses than servers. Typically someone who has licensed a machine can transfer the license to you by filling out the license transfer paperwork and by you paying Compaq $300 to process it. --Chuck From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Sep 9 02:24:05 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Vector 3 References: <200109081751.f88Hpv206233@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <00d101c13900$68dbc0e0$43b2b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver 2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that I could teledisk if anyone's still interested. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 9 02:24:22 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: se scsi from ex8200 Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010909002344.01bd1e00@209.185.79.193> Would the person who wanted the Single Ended SCSI card out of the Exabyte 8200 please resend me a message. I've lost your mail. Thanks, --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 9 02:39:28 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010908230717.02028eb0@209.185.79.193> References: <001701c138ee$aa712c00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.0.0.25.2.20010908204714.026a2c40@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: >All Hobbyist VMS licenses are good for 1 year from the date they are >issued. They must then be renewed. All layered products (each with their >own license) are also 1 year licenses but my experience has been that they >are 1 yr from your last renewel. So if you request them with 1 month to go >on your DECUS^h^h^h^h^hEncompass membership they expire in one month. I've had a different result in that I was getting licenses with an expired membership, in fact one that had been expired for over a year! Of course my Eisner account was still active as well, so maybe that was all part of the decay of DECUS before becoming Encompass. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From owad at applefritter.com Sun Sep 9 10:44:23 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: <000c01c1367a$23bacfc0$c2609040@syzygy2> References: <000c01c1367a$23bacfc0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: <20010909154423.9368@mail.lafayette.edu> >IWM refers to the "Integrated Woz Machine" if I remember correctly (I'm an >Atari Historian, not an Apple Historian) Tom Owad could probably answer >more correctly. Apple did a wonderful job at making a system not only >flexible and efficient for disk drive access for a personal computer, but >made it cheap, really unlocking the ability for the average user to finally >have a decent storage medium that was fast and reliable. Sorry, I haven't had much time to read the list recently. Yes, IWM stands for Integrated Woz Machine. It's essentially a Disk II controller on a chip, with some enhancements. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Sun Sep 9 11:09:58 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: TI Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010909120953.00b09580@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 10:34 AM 8/28/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hello all, > >I have the following TI stuff available. Please see my previous note about >Apple II stuff for all terms/conditions.... > >TI RF Modulator -- Qty. 5, untested, $2.00 EACH I would like to have the TI modulators. If not already spoken for how much for postage and where do I send the check? P.O. Box 3365, Spring Hill Florida 34611-3365 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 11:31:10 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <00d101c13900$68dbc0e0$43b2b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was > looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver > 2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that > I could teledisk if anyone's still interested. Really? The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 9 12:24:31 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: ebay: posted more microchannel stuff today Message-ID: Posted 2 Kingston 286 type memory cards, 2 Kingston 386 memory cards and 3 Arco IDE controllers...use ebay's search for my auctions with the seller's username of "rhblake" to see them. Sorry for the OT but I know there plenty of people with NCR and IBM microchannel machines that want these things - I'm doing a major reduction in "stuff" and there will be machines, cards, drives, etc from now until around the first of 2002... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010909/bf9d0dad/attachment.html From dittman at dittman.net Sun Sep 9 12:34:16 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 08, 2001 11:17:05 PM Message-ID: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Typically someone who has licensed a machine can transfer the license to > you by filling out the license transfer paperwork and by you paying Compaq > $300 to process it. Not all licenses are eligible for transfer, unless this has changed recently. Only the OS, DECnet, and I think cluster license can be transfered. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 9 13:04:35 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:20 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010909110415.02629d80@209.185.79.193> At 12:34 PM 9/9/01 -0500, Eric wrote: >Not all licenses are eligible for transfer, unless this has changed recently. >Only the OS, DECnet, and I think cluster license can be transfered. At least those won't expire then... --Chuck From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 9 14:29:30 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <003501c13965$bfbe89a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> Boy am I glad I haven't overwritten any old VMS'es with anything, even OpenVMS. I'm looking around at Compaq's website right now. Looks like prices might be $1000 and up. I would pay half that, especially for a legal site wide (my house = 3+ Vaxes) liscence. Ideally, after some time they would drop the product and let third parties offer it for media cost. But then I guess RSX and RSTS never went there, did they? John A. From mranalog at home.com Sun Sep 9 14:27:51 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Font used in d|i|g|i|t|a|l logo? Message-ID: <3B9BC2B7.FFC6BD73@home.com> When is someone going to recreate the I [heart] d|i|g|i|t|a|l bumper sticker? I had one of those on my rear bumper until I junked the car about 10 years ago. It was just too hard to cut it out of the bumper. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 9 15:00:33 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <003501c13965$bfbe89a0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >Boy am I glad I haven't overwritten any old VMS'es with >anything, even OpenVMS. I'm looking around at Compaq's >website right now. Looks like prices might be $1000 and up. >I would pay half that, especially for a legal site wide (my house >= 3+ Vaxes) liscence. If you've got VMS systems with valid license PAK's that you don't have hardcopies for, you should really dump the license PAK's and print them out! Then keep the printouts somewhere safe. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cfandt at netsync.net Sun Sep 9 15:13:27 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets, Memory expansion boards In-Reply-To: References: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.1.20010909160145.01bd9ad0@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 04:12 PM 8/15/01 -0700, Mike Ford said something like: >Generally either Printerworks or fixmyownprinter (something like that) has >all the info you need plus the parts etc. I even have a pretty good stash >of parts from some of the service depot auctions I have attended. I do tend >to packrat manuals too, so ask me and I will look, but mostly its the user >manuals. > >I have a BUNCH of brand new memory expansion boards for a VARIETY of >different old laser printers (nothing very new). Brother, Olivetti, etc. >plus HP II, IId, etc. As soon as I get them organized they are going on >eBay. If you have an old printer you want a memory expansion board for ask >me NOW, as in many cases I have ONE only of certain odd printers. $10 and >shipping for a bare board (put your own old DRAM chips in it). > I have an Epson Action Laser II which needs a good photoconductor unit assembly. I see from the online manuals the part number is S051005. Would you have something like that Mike? Also, have you found or know of the correct URL for the "fixmyownprinter" site you suggested above? Printerworks just has Canon-engined stuff and was no help. Thanks much! -Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 9 12:48:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 9, 1 09:31:10 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 357 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010909/bee5f8a5/attachment.ksh From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Sep 9 16:35:08 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Zane H. Healy wrote: > If you've got VMS systems with valid license PAK's that you don't have > hardcopies for, you should really dump the license PAK's and print them > out! Then keep the printouts somewhere safe. > Scanning the hardcopies in a document scanner is not a bad idea either. I've done that with most if not all of my non-hobby PAK's. (Speaking of licenses with no hard copy, I got a set of Ultrix 4.5 edu licenses left on a disk from buying a DEC Storage Expansion unit on Ebay. Not a bad deal) -- From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 9 17:10:57 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets, Memory expansion boards In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010909160145.01bd9ad0@206.231.8.2> Message-ID: http://www.fixyourownprinter.com/ You might try Agson in NJ ( http://www.agson.com ) if you can't locate it anywhere, and they sell to end users. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Christian Fandt -> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 3:13 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: ancient laserjets, Memory expansion boards -> -> -> Upon the date 04:12 PM 8/15/01 -0700, Mike Ford said something like: -> >Generally either Printerworks or fixmyownprinter (something -> like that) has -> >all the info you need plus the parts etc. I even have a pretty -> good stash -> >of parts from some of the service depot auctions I have -> attended. I do tend -> >to packrat manuals too, so ask me and I will look, but mostly -> its the user -> >manuals. -> > -> >I have a BUNCH of brand new memory expansion boards for a VARIETY of -> >different old laser printers (nothing very new). Brother, Olivetti, etc. -> >plus HP II, IId, etc. As soon as I get them organized they are going on -> >eBay. If you have an old printer you want a memory expansion -> board for ask -> >me NOW, as in many cases I have ONE only of certain odd -> printers. $10 and -> >shipping for a bare board (put your own old DRAM chips in it). -> > -> -> I have an Epson Action Laser II which needs a good photoconductor unit -> assembly. I see from the online -> manuals the part number is S051005. Would you have something -> like that Mike? -> -> Also, have you found or know of the correct URL for the "fixmyownprinter" -> site you suggested above? Printerworks just has Canon-engined -> stuff and was -> no help. -> -> Thanks much! -> -> -Chris -> -- -- -> Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian -> Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net -> Member of Antique Wireless Association -> URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ -> From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 9 17:50:22 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: ancient laserjets, Memory expansion boards In-Reply-To: <4.1.20010909160145.01bd9ad0@206.231.8.2> References: <000701c12591$400c0620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Upon the date 04:12 PM 8/15/01 -0700, Mike Ford said something like: >>Generally either Printerworks or fixmyownprinter (something like that) has >>all the info you need plus the parts etc. I even have a pretty good stash >>of parts from some of the service depot auctions I have attended. I do tend >>to packrat manuals too, so ask me and I will look, but mostly its the user >>manuals. >> >>I have a BUNCH of brand new memory expansion boards for a VARIETY of >>different old laser printers (nothing very new). Brother, Olivetti, etc. >>plus HP II, IId, etc. As soon as I get them organized they are going on >>eBay. If you have an old printer you want a memory expansion board for ask >>me NOW, as in many cases I have ONE only of certain odd printers. $10 and >>shipping for a bare board (put your own old DRAM chips in it). >> > >I have an Epson Action Laser II which needs a good photoconductor unit >assembly. I see from the online >manuals the part number is S051005. Would you have something like that Mike? > >Also, have you found or know of the correct URL for the "fixmyownprinter" >site you suggested above? Printerworks just has Canon-engined stuff and was >no help. My problem is that I don't know all of what I have, just boxes and boxes with part numbers on the end etc. I am pretty sure that the only photoconductor I have is for an old IBM 3812, but I can look around a bit (monday or tuesday I am going to some new scrap joints). Cheers, Mike Ford From mrbill at mrbill.net Sun Sep 9 19:11:46 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Free PDP 11/34 complete setup - Littlerock, CA Message-ID: <20010909191146.V26352@mrbill.net> Surely someone in CA can help rescue this system. Info below (I got this @ my pdp11.org address). Please email Kristina directly. pdp11/34 with rsts/e software up for grabs Hello, I have a pdp11/34 with rsts/e software up for grabs. It was my fathers, Bill Ramsey, and it needs a good home since he passed away. There are modems,books, software, tape decks, peripherial equiptment (monitors and computers) and spare PCB's. Just give us a call at 661-944-9550 or email us back at kaesplace@aol.com. We are located in Littlerock,CA. Thank you for your time. Sincerly, Kristina Roberts Hello Bill, the PDP11 and associated components roughly occupies the equivilant of 3 refrigerators. There is the main unit, about 8ft tall and width of a filing cabinet, the isolation transformers, the same width and 5ft tall, and then a dozen or so boxes of software, spare boards and literature, as well as a printer and the monitor, plus 2 remote processors. You may be able to get it all into a pickup truck with a large capacity bed. We live in Southern california 60 miles NE of L.A. regards Charles and Kristina Roberts. -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From donm at cts.com Sun Sep 9 19:17:58 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3 In-Reply-To: <00d101c13900$68dbc0e0$43b2b2d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was > looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver > 2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that > I could teledisk if anyone's still interested. The chap in question is Michael J. Frank and he can be reached at m.frankesq@verizon.net. I'm sure that he will be glad to hear from you. - don From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 9 19:46:44 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I could read the subject, but then some idiot had put a load of HTML in the body. Anyway, why would anyone ask money for something like this? I've got one out of a mod. 50Z, complete with badge. Will it only work in PS/2s? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 20:28:36 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > Really? > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see no reason why a PC with a > suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk.... Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware. But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't much of a commercial market for them. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 9 20:40:08 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <001101c13999$86aabb00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > you should really dump the license PAK's and print them out! I don't get this. Isn't this like walking up to a combination lock and saying "SHOW COMBINATION". Shouldn't be possible, should it? John A. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 9 20:56:19 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm glad that you're so special to have all of this for free, not everyone has time to scrounge the dumpsters and some like in the box parts. Don't know where you got HTML from, I send all the list mail as plain text. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Iggy Drougge -> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 7:47 PM -> To: Classic computers message group -> Subject: Re: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 -> models 50 or 60 -> -> -> I could read the subject, but then some idiot had put a load of HTML in -> the body. -> Anyway, why would anyone ask money for something like this? I've got one -> out of a mod. 50Z, complete with badge. Will it only work in PS/2s? -> -> From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 9 21:33:05 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <001101c13999$86aabb00$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> from John Allain at "Sep 9, 1 09:40:08 pm" Message-ID: <200109100233.TAA11534@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > you should really dump the license PAK's and print them out! > > I don't get this. Isn't this like walking up to a combination lock > and saying "SHOW COMBINATION". Shouldn't be possible, > should it? On the other hand, I used to get valid serial numbers for a certain Microsoft OS that shall remain nameless from the About box. (Before people go calling the Microsoft attack dogs, we already had valid licenses for the systems, and were reusing another system's CD for convenience.) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- It's not an optical illusion. It just looks like one. -- Phil White -------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 9 21:35:19 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Sep 9, 1 06:28:36 pm" Message-ID: <200109100235.TAA10538@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > > > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > > > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. > > Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see no reason why a PC with a > > suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk.... > Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware. > But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle > hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't > much of a commercial market for them. This sounds like a Catweasel controller, a device that does in fact read many custom floppy formats. I know for sure it can read C64/128, which is my primary interest in it. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 9 22:40:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Recent finds Message-ID: <2213.653T1500T2805289optimus@canit.se> It's been a wet week in Stockholm, but nevertheless, thanks to the waste management of the technical university, we've managed to scrounge together some interesting pieces. A lot of HP things, mainly HIL mice and keyboards, much to my joy, since I can now use my 9000/380. But what does a HIL ID module do? We also found a more or less complete 9000/425 system (no hard drives, but a monitor and two tape drives which were buried too deep for us to get at). Then we found an Apple II clone by Copam, which I've previously thought was just a soul-less PC clone manufacturer. Now it turns out that they were once a soul-less Apple clone manufacturer as well. =) The unit is called the Base-64A, which sounds supiciously like a MIME encoding, and it's got a floppy drive, too. The Base-64 was perched atop some old cabinet with a lot of rain in it and warning labels about the Winchester drive, which is a hulking full-height fourteen-inch unit. I found a card outside the cabinet which looked like a full- height QBus card. It's got two AMD 2901s, which is a bit-slice processor. Another (half-height) card was left inside the cabinet, it, too, featuring a pair of 2901s. Because we were already loaded, and because of the rain and the size of the thing, we decided to leave it behind, but I took the card I'd found with me for further identification. The card and the cabinet are made by Plessey Peripheral Systems, and my quick research indicates that this is some PDP-11 (or should it be an LSI-11?) clone. Will those two cards we found really suffice for a functioning system? Four 2901s should only add up to four bits according to my calculations... There was a lot of old terminals there as well, but I've got enough of those already. It was rather interesting to see an old Tandberg terminal of ours, though, only branded with the Norsk Data label andfeaturing an orange colour scheme instead of Tandberg's brown/beige. I suppose it's been hooked up to some Nord mini once upon a time. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Computer games don't affect kids, I mean if Pac Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music." David McMinn From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 9 21:46:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk References: Message-ID: <002c01c139a2$bebfa380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One approach to reading/writing hard sectored media would be to cook up a firmware set for, say, a UBICOM SX MCU that would be tasked to sample the signal coming from the drive and keep track of it with respect to the index/sector pulses, which, of course, could then be on the same line, since there'd be no FDC to get confused when they occur. The simple way would be to shuffle the sampled data into a RAM that's 9 bits wide, where the 9th bit would be the state of the index line. Software could beat on the resulting sample to format it into sensible and convenient form based on the vast oversampling done with the MCU. No hardware outside the MCU would be necessary, since the SX52, say, could mux the addresses to the 256Kb x 9 DRAM in firmware in plenty of time and would still have enough pins for the data and the disk I/O. The SX52 can drive an FDD cable without external buffers, by the way. All it would take is a bit of code and a 48 MHz oscillator. That happens to be a VERY convenient clock rate for this sort of task, too. Once a data massaging software set is whipped into line, the makers of TELEDISK couldn't complain about infringement, since there wouldn't be any, yet you could use the massaged data to rewrite the diskette image at a remote location once it was fiddled with enough to generate the appropriate write precomp, if needed. With an SX52 at a either 48 or 96 MHz, you could easily do this job, irrespective of whether the data is in manchester, GCR, FM, MFM, etc, since the analysis would be handled by the PC off-line. Meanwhile, the data just has to be transferred. These little MCU's cost about $8, IIRC. They're in a QFP with 0.65mm pin spacing but that's quite common. At least one British company, and several American ones, among others, make adapters to which they can be soldered and subsequently put in to a PGA socket. Moreover, if you don't mind drilling the holes, you can make such a thingie yourself. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 7:28 PM Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk > > > Really? > > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > > > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > > > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see no reason why a PC with a > > suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk.... > > Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware. > > But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle > hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't > much of a commercial market for them. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 > > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Sun Sep 9 22:02:36 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? Message-ID: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I have a contact who needs to get rid of a VAX 11/750 and an 11/730 real soon and they are in Sommerset County, New Jersey. A picker-upper would be preferred. There is also an HP 3000/48. Let me know who wants them and can pick up. If there is contention, I think one should try sharing, so let me know which one you really really badly want if you have to choose. Thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 22:07:26 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <200109100235.TAA10538@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > > > > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > > > > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. > This sounds like a Catweasel controller, a device that does in fact read > many custom floppy formats. I know for sure it can read C64/128, which is > my primary interest in it. The Catweasel shouldn't have any difficulty with GCR (C64, etc.) A board SIMILAR to it could be easily built that could handle hard=sectored, but it is not at all clear whether the design decisions of the Catweasel will permit hard sectored disks. Have you tried it? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 9 22:21:08 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <009c01c139a7$afcb9140$9ff19a8d@ajp166> Not really, Since the combination is keyed and limited to that sytem (or systems) it's intended for. they are also partially encrypted and that part has the "key". Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Allain To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:37 PM Subject: Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX >> you should really dump the license PAK's and print them out! > >I don't get this. Isn't this like walking up to a combination lock >and saying "SHOW COMBINATION". Shouldn't be possible, >should it? > >John A. > From donm at cts.com Sun Sep 9 22:17:28 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > > > Really? > > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > > > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > > > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see no reason why a PC with a > > suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk.... > > Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware. > > But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle > hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't > much of a commercial market for them. > > -- > Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com > XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com > PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 > Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 And I also would be delighted to have you create such a controller. I'd even forego the GCR part, but I would like to see 10 and 16 sector in the 5.25" disks and 32 sector in the 8" ones! Wow! That would be a real blessing. - don From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 22:17:44 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <002c01c139a2$bebfa380$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: "one way WOULD BE" "could" "might work" etc. Once you DO it, let us know. Until then, there is ONE simple, inexpensive, way to read the Vecto hard-sectored diskettes: USE A VECTOR. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 8 22:18:02 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 References: Message-ID: <3B9ADF6A.2BF9B486@internet1.net> I don't normally find stuff like that around hear. It's simply too old. It's already gone through the hands of the used equipment vendors at the local computer show. I bid at the spur of the moment. It'll go into my AT, that may end up on Ebay eventually. I'll mess around with it first, maybe use it as a terminal for my MicroVax 3400 for a little while. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > I'm glad that you're so special to have all of this for free, not everyone > has time to scrounge the dumpsters and some like in the box parts. From dittman at dittman.net Sun Sep 9 22:24:39 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "John Allain" at Sep 09, 2001 09:40:08 PM Message-ID: <200109100324.f8A3OdI23277@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > you should really dump the license PAK's and print them out! > > I don't get this. Isn't this like walking up to a combination lock > and saying "SHOW COMBINATION". Shouldn't be possible, > should it? No, this isn't the same. These are licenses, not locks. If anyone is curious, the command is "LICENSE ISSUE xxx", and issuing the license disables it, so you have to "LICENSE ENABLE xxx" to reenable. Also, I'd recommend using the /OUTPUT qualifier if you are going to print the licenses and using both /OUTPUT and /PROCEDURE if you want a copy that you can easily reload later. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From wmsmith at earthlink.net Sun Sep 9 22:47:51 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk References: Message-ID: <005001c139ab$5e6431a0$ae27b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > I seem to remember that someone, a long time ago, was > > looking for an OS for the Vector 3. I have the CP/M (ver > > 2.22) disk for this system, as well as a few programs, that > > I could teledisk if anyone's still interested. > > Really? > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > Well, you're right, Fred, they are 16-sector disks and Teledisk won't work - I don't have a Victor 3 and I hadn't noticed. I would lend out the disks for someone to make copies. The ones I have are: CP/M Ver. 2.22 Release 7 Memorite III Ver. 1.3 Release 5 Data Manager Ver. 1.13 Execuplan Ver. 1.20 Release 3 I'll be at VCF 5.0 on Sunday and can have them there if there's interest. -W From donm at cts.com Sun Sep 9 23:04:03 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > "one way WOULD BE" > "could" > "might work" > etc. > > Once you DO it, let us know. > > > Until then, there is ONE simple, inexpensive, way to read the Vecto > hard-sectored diskettes: > > USE A VECTOR. Always keeping in mind that Vector used both 96tpi and 100tpi drives! - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From donm at cts.com Sun Sep 9 23:08:30 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <005001c139ab$5e6431a0$ae27b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > Well, you're right, Fred, they are 16-sector disks and > Teledisk won't work - I don't have a Victor 3 and I hadn't > noticed. > > I would lend out the disks for someone to make copies. The > ones I have are: I do have a Vector Graphic, and would be pleased to take a crack at duplicating them. - don > CP/M Ver. 2.22 Release 7 > Memorite III Ver. 1.3 Release 5 > Data Manager Ver. 1.13 > Execuplan Ver. 1.20 Release 3 > > I'll be at VCF 5.0 on Sunday and can have them there if > there's interest. > > -W > > From tbilby at rave.com Sun Sep 9 23:33:39 2001 From: tbilby at rave.com (Tad Bilby) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> Hello- I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for about 6 months with no success. i.e. http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install OpenVMS to. Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal or hobbiest channels? Tad "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Boy am I glad I haven't overwritten any old VMS'es with > >anything, even OpenVMS. I'm looking around at Compaq's > >website right now. Looks like prices might be $1000 and up. > >I would pay half that, especially for a legal site wide (my house > >= 3+ Vaxes) liscence. > > If you've got VMS systems with valid license PAK's that you don't have > hardcopies for, you should really dump the license PAK's and print them > out! Then keep the printouts somewhere safe. > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | Tad Bilby Rave Computer Assoc. www.rave.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 9 23:57:21 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >Hello- >I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for >about 6 months with no success. >i.e. >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ >http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html >I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install >OpenVMS to. >Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal >or hobbiest channels? As long as you've got an Encompass membership you should be able to get the licenses without any trouble. As for the Media, you're probably ahead to just get it off of eBay. It will cost a little (to a lot) more than the Hobbyist CD from Montagar, but you can get a ConDist with all the layered products. The other solution would be to call up Compaq and buy the licenses and media, but that would be a few thousand by the time you got done. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Sep 10 00:00:27 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? Message-ID: >I have a contact who needs to get rid of a VAX 11/750 and an >11/730 real soon and they are in Sommerset County, New Jersey. >A picker-upper would be preferred. There is also an HP 3000/48. >Let me know who wants them and can pick up. If there is contention, >I think one should try sharing, so let me know which one you >really really badly want if you have to choose. I am in NJ, and am always interested in playing with computers and computer parts. If no one else wants them, I would be happy to pick them up and play (um, are they free?). But I have to admit, I don't know what to do with either, so I would only take them if it was me or the dumpster. -chris From zaft at azstarnet.com Mon Sep 10 00:19:51 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010909221835.00babe28@mail.azstarnet.com> At 12:33 AM 9/10/2001 -0400, you wrote: >Hello- >I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for >about 6 months with no success. >i.e. >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ >http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html >I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install >OpenVMS to. >Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal >or hobbiest channels? You need to join Encompass (formerly DECUS). Membership is free. Once you are a member you can get licenses through the Hobbyist program. Of course depending on what country you are in you may not be able to get 'em. G From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 10 00:53:25 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I am in NJ, and am always interested in playing with computers and >computer parts. If no one else wants them, I would be happy to pick them >up and play (um, are they free?). But I have to admit, I don't know what >to do with either, so I would only take them if it was me or the dumpster. > >-chris Since you don't know what to do with either, here is a little warning, they're big. I'm going to guess the 11/730 is a 19" rack, and the 11/750 will be bigger. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Sep 10 01:46:57 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? Message-ID: >Since you don't know what to do with either, here is a little warning, >they're big. I'm going to guess the 11/730 is a 19" rack, and the 11/750 >will be bigger. YIKES... humm... then maybe I don't want them (although, still, if they are going to the dumpster, I would probably play with them for a while before returning them to the dumpster, or passing them on to someone else) -chris From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 03:49:56 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066113@exc-reo1> Chuck McManis wrote: > A VAXServer 3100/M48 (yet another one I didn't have > yet.) with all the option cards (multi-serial, DMF32, > etc) I don't think a DMF-32 will even physically fit in a VAXserver/VAXstation 3100: it's a UNIBUS card! You probably have a DSH32 and/or DST32. > A bunch of manuals, including the VT103 users guide > and a bunch of VAX 11/730 manuals (including the CPU > technical manual!) It would be nice to see this scanned and made available (especially the VAX-11/730 stuff). Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 03:55:22 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066114@exc-reo1> Jerome Fine wrote: > I could probably use the TU58 manuals, however, I would > rather see them > sent to someone who will scan them and make them available to > everyone. I've already scanned the TU58 user manual and if it's not already on its way to DFWCUG it soon will be (for some suitable value of "soon"). > Since I have only RT-11/PDP-11 hardware stuff, what might help? What > about a set of out of print RT-11 DOCs? As far as I know, these are > allowed to be reproduced since they are no longer available? I know someone was trying to get Mentec to give permission for certain manuals to be made available. If this has already been done, then point me to something from Mentec that says it's OK and your wish may be granted. > Can these be > scanned as well? They can certainly be scanned. Can they legally be made available? > Also, I hope to soon receive an 11/73 manual? Could this > also be scanned? Easily! In fact, as long as it's not available from COMPAQ, years ago DEC gave (almost) blanket permission for anything pre-1985(?) to be made available. > I realize that it is great to have our own copies of these > manuals, but I am > now hoping that they can all be scanned and thereby preserved > before that > is no longer possible. You do know about the DFWCUG scanning project? Pointers to them (and a bunch of other individuals doing the same sort of thing) can be found at http://www.decdocs.org . Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 03:58:29 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066115@exc-reo1> Chuck McManis wrote: > At 10:41 AM 9/8/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > >Of course a PAK generator solves the problem of missing PAKs > quite nicely. > > Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and > Compaq doing the > dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost > at some point. AFAIK, the PAKGEN program that third parties were allowed to purchase would only generate PAKs in the name of that third party. So simply having PAKGEN would not allow you to generate DEC PAKs! OTOH several people reverse-engineered the PAK checksum and at least one company were selling a PAKGEN-like service until they were "leaned on". Antonio From mikeford at socal.rr.com Mon Sep 10 05:31:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Picked up AIM/KIM/SYM's In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010909221835.00babe28@mail.azstarnet.com> References: <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: I finally got together with the person who had the AIM-65 stuff in his garage, and drove out this evening and spent a few hours digging out the boxes etc. Everything is now in the back of my car, and in a couple days I hope to have a good inventory. Preference goes to the people who replied to my earlier post. (if you did, and didn't just get a rough inventory from me, email me ASAP) Since a few pretty odd bits are in the batch, I will also post the inventory to the list so that hopefully every last item gets to a new home soon. among the items I didn't expect were; AIM 65 backplane chassis, and what looks like video cards bus extender cards and sockets eprom burner rust, thankfully only on a couple. From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Sep 10 06:47:14 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? Message-ID: <115.462cc82.28ce0242@aol.com> In a message dated 9/9/01 11:21:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org writes: > Hi, > > I have a contact who needs to get rid of a VAX 11/750 and an > 11/730 real soon and they are in Sommerset County, New Jersey. > A picker-upper would be preferred. There is also an HP 3000/48. > Let me know who wants them and can pick up. If there is contention, > I think one should try sharing, so let me know which one you > really really badly want if you have to choose. Please let me know. Would love to get a hold of a 750 :-) I can find homes for the others as well if nobody else shows an interest here. I am also fairly close by in eastern PA. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 10 07:25:15 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Sep 10, 2001 01:58:29 AM Message-ID: <200109101225.f8ACPF724175@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > >Of course a PAK generator solves the problem of missing PAKs > > quite nicely. > > > > Yes it does, however I am dearly afraid that with HP and > > Compaq doing the > > dance that the lore of such things will be permanently lost > > at some point. > > AFAIK, the PAKGEN program that third parties > were allowed to purchase would only > generate PAKs in the name of that > third party. So simply having PAKGEN > would not allow you to generate DEC PAKs! True, and PAKGEN was only available to run on a VAX, not an Alpha, so you had to keep a VAX around. > OTOH several people reverse-engineered > the PAK checksum and at least one > company were selling a PAKGEN-like service > until they were "leaned on". Reverse engineering is what most people did. I know of one company still selling a PAK generator, but like PAKGEN it only lets you generate PAKs for your own products. Was the company that was stopped selling a PAK generator or were they selling generated PAKs? If they were selling a PAK generator I don't see how they could be stopped. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Mon Sep 10 07:48:16 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin at "Sep 9, 1 08:07:26 pm" Message-ID: <200109101248.FAA09082@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > > This sounds like a Catweasel controller, a device that does in fact read > > many custom floppy formats. I know for sure it can read C64/128, which is > > my primary interest in it. > The Catweasel shouldn't have any difficulty with GCR (C64, etc.) > A board SIMILAR to it could be easily built that could handle > hard=sectored, but it is not at all clear whether the design decisions of > the Catweasel will permit hard sectored disks. Have you tried it? Nope, but I'm saving my pennies :-) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Sep 10 08:37:26 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DC8@MAIL10> Hello, all: I was able to get my hands on the two DOS 1.0 disks. So, I spent a few minutes with Sourcer and a good hex editor in search of the DR copyright notice. I didn't find it. Maybe I misunderstood the timing of the message, but I thought that the 1.0 version of DOS contained copyright information from Digital Research and when IBM found out, they compelled MS to expunge it, resulting in the 1.1 version. The file dates are as follows: c:\>dir a: Volume in drive A is 3COM53_D1 Volume Serial Number is 11DC-3A5E Directory of A:\ 07/23/81 12:00a 1,920 IBMBIO.COM *** 08/04/81 12:00a 3,231 COMMAND.COM *** 08/13/81 12:00a 6,400 IBMDOS.COM *** 09/10/01 09:28a 66,235 COMMAND.LST 09/10/01 09:27a 4,374 IBMBIO.SDF 09/10/01 09:28a 143,874 IBMDOS.LST 09/10/01 09:28a 16,231 IBMDOS.SDF 09/10/01 09:27a 25,780 IBMBIO.LST 09/10/01 09:28a 10,141 COMMAND.SDF 9 File(s) 278,186 bytes 1,177,088 bytes free The files are all dated before the PC's release. I find it interesting that the file date for DOS proper was one week before the PC announcement. Microsoft tweaking until the last minute. IBMBIO contains only a revision mark and no copyright notice. IBMDOS contains a header common to all versions of DOS ("M;S<>=~KRAA") and no copyright notice. COMMAND contains a copyright message which is the one probably displayed upon execution: The IBM Personal Computer DOS Version 1.00 (C)Copyright IBM Corp 1981 Licensed Material - Program Property of IBM So, where did I go wrong?? Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 10 08:44:19 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> Message-ID: <01Sep10.095214edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Hello- >I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for >about 6 months with no success. >i.e. >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ >http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html >I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install >OpenVMS to. >Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal >or hobbiest channels? Do the same problems that apply to installing the later versions of OpenVMS apply to earlier versions, such as 4.5 and 4.6? The only removable media I have on my MV-II is the TK50, and it doesn't currently work, so the only copy of VMS 4.5 I have is on TK50 while the only copy of 4.6 is on the hard disk. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Mon Sep 10 08:44:42 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? Message-ID: I'd like to get some recommendations from the list for a good introductory electronics book for my 14 year-old son. He's interested in building an intercom system (and other circuits) that he got off the Web, and I would like something for him to read that will give him a good understanding of how the circuit works. (For example, it uses the primary windings of a 120V:12V transformer as a coil.) TIA. From edick at idcomm.com Mon Sep 10 00:36:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk References: Message-ID: <000101c13a02$d5e53b00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Now THERE's a solution! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 10:08 PM Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk > > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > > > Well, you're right, Fred, they are 16-sector disks and > > Teledisk won't work - I don't have a Victor 3 and I hadn't > > noticed. > > > > I would lend out the disks for someone to make copies. The > > ones I have are: > > I do have a Vector Graphic, and would be pleased to take a crack > at duplicating them. > - don > > > CP/M Ver. 2.22 Release 7 > > Memorite III Ver. 1.3 Release 5 > > Data Manager Ver. 1.13 > > Execuplan Ver. 1.20 Release 3 > > > > I'll be at VCF 5.0 on Sunday and can have them there if > > there's interest. > > > > -W > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Mon Sep 10 00:34:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk References: Message-ID: <000001c13a02$d5bc0820$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm quite certain someone with enough interest to do this can do it in a few of days' concentrated effort, provided he's up to speed on the controller I mentioned. The reason is that the controller is flash programmable in-situ, can drive the FDD cable directly, and has 10x the necessary speed. The software on the PC is probably not different from what's used with the CatWeasel, and, in fact, the CatWeasel should be capable as well. Most guys would rather curse the darkness than light one candle, however. I personally don't have any interest in seeing this done at all, since I disposed of my last Vector in '84, and seldom see hard-sectored diskettes. With a 52-pin IC that does most of the work, that means hooking up the 52 pins to a 30-pin 256Kx9 SIMM, a 4-pin oscillator, and the 8-bit ISA bus (<62 pins), which is not a hell of a lot of work. A guy who likes high-level programming would be able to do the bulk of the work, while the low-level sampling-control is not a challenging task. While this doesn't offer me anything I want today, someone's obviously looking for a way to do it. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" To: Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 9:17 PM Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk > "one way WOULD BE" > "could" > "might work" > etc. > > Once you DO it, let us know. > > > Until then, there is ONE simple, inexpensive, way to read the Vecto > hard-sectored diskettes: > > USE A VECTOR. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 10 09:23:17 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <200109100324.f8A3OdI23277@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <001201c13a04$22c1f020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > No, this isn't the same. These are licenses, not locks. No argument from me. I've been checking the document archives and I used to know this, but how do you display the system ID? There was a GetSYI parameter or some such... I imagine the number can be displayed from the console as well without an OS booted or even present. And... is this a number that Encompass will accept? John A. From bpope at wordstock.com Mon Sep 10 09:40:45 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? In-Reply-To: from "Feldman, Robert" at Sep 10, 01 07:44:42 am Message-ID: <200109101440.KAA15854@wordstock.com> How about "Basic Electronic Theory" from TAB books? Bryan > > I'd like to get some recommendations from the list for a good introductory > electronics book for my 14 year-old son. He's interested in building an > intercom system (and other circuits) that he got off the Web, and I would > like something for him to read that will give him a good understanding of > how the circuit works. (For example, it uses the primary windings of a > 120V:12V transformer as a coil.) TIA. > From vance at ikickass.org Mon Sep 10 09:42:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:21 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. In-Reply-To: <3B985A73.827FCBEE@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Wow, you know it's BIG if Dave was impressed :-) Seriuosly though, I > didn't know computers were THAT big.... I've always heard of "rooms", > but "floors" takes the cake! Even modern mainframes can take *buildings* full of disk. Peace... Sridhar From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Sep 10 09:44:32 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <200109070226.WAA04716@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:26:27 -0400 (EDT) Louis Schulman wrote: > Someone across the lake sent a post the other day about > a Brain Boxes PC Elite IEEE-488 card That was me! > and its supposed ability to transfer files to and from a > Commodore Pet drive. Yes, I have a piece of software that I downloaded from the Brain Boxes Web site: http://www.brainboxes.com which claims to do that. I haven't tried it yet. > I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works > with their card or any card. The card claims to be compatible with the IBM IEEE card, and with the National Instruments card. But you have to select this mode with a DIP-switch. It's possible that the PET transfer software only works in one mode. > If the former, any of you British chaps want to part with > such a card (these cards seem not to be available in the > colonies)? I only have the one card, sorry. And I gained another IEEE-488 device over the weekend, an HP 1980B oscilloscope (with manuals). -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Sep 10 09:54:12 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <200109081751.NAA26721@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 08 Sep 2001 13:51:10 -0400 (EDT) Louis Schulman wrote: > From what I have found out, the various IEEE-488 cards do > not interface with a PC in a standard way. There seems to be a "de facto" standard, which is to clone the National Instruments cards and software. The Brain Boxes manual mentions a "GPIB.COM" device driver which makes their card work with the NI applications. > Rather, each has its own proprietary interface, and thus > uses its own driver. Yes, but the drivers' APIs may be fairly standard. > It therefore appears that software specifically written > for one card will not work with another, at least without > some hacking. Software that uses the MS-DOS "GPIB.COM" driver may work, though. > The Commodore Pet floppy drive transfer software for the > Brain Boxes card appears unknown. I'll give it another try as soon as I have all the right things set up. My PET disks are stored underneath my PET, which is behind my DEC LN03R laser, which is under a bunch of stuff put there to make room for a BBQ over the weekend... :-) > There is some information on a do it yourself card to > allow a PC to communicate with a Pet drive, but not on > this already written software. Where can I find out about this DIY IEEE card? -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From engdahl at cle.ab.com Mon Sep 10 10:24:34 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: 2.9BSD UNIX available for PDP-11/23 with MSCP Message-ID: <02de01c13a0c$b1de77d0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> A version of 2.9BSD UNIX which runs on a PDP-11/23 with MSCP hard drives is now available at: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.9BSD-MSCP/ I tested this on a PDP-11/23 consisting of a KDF11-A CPU, 256 Kb RAM, Andromeda UCD11, SLU card, and a 20 megabyte Seagate ST-225 hard drive. UNIX can be recompiled on this machine. Support for loading 2.9BSD via VTserver from a PC is also included. You have to have a UNIX license before you can access the files. You can get this for free starting here: http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Sep 10 10:31:08 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467051@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ...and two RJ-style(6 pins, and an offset clip) COM ! ports.... Those would be DEC MMJ ports... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Sep 10 10:39:07 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: HP & Compaq Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467052@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! I've brought in consultants offering to do everything from a ! similar temporary fix to a complete re-wire.... but there's ! no acknowledgement on the part of said former supervisor ! who is also the closet thing we have to a comptroller that we ! actually have a problem. He said to drop it until I could ! PROVE the wiring wss the problem, and however that might be ! done would likely require resources I don't have. Sounds like you need to borrow cable testing equipment, and show him the results of your cables, compared to the results of a building wired properly... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 10 11:13:16 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "John Allain" at Sep 10, 2001 10:23:17 AM Message-ID: <200109101613.f8AGDG824510@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > No, this isn't the same. These are licenses, not locks. > > No argument from me. I've been checking the document > archives and I used to know this, but how do you display > the system ID? There was a GetSYI parameter or some > such... I imagine the number can be displayed from the > console as well without an OS booted or even present. > > And... is this a number that Encompass will accept? Do you mean the hardware ID? If so, either enter the serial number or you can make one up. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 10 11:15:07 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 10, 2001 10:42:19 AM Message-ID: <200109101615.f8AGF7i24520@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Wow, you know it's BIG if Dave was impressed :-) Seriuosly though, I > > didn't know computers were THAT big.... I've always heard of "rooms", > > but "floors" takes the cake! > > Even modern mainframes can take *buildings* full of disk. Yes. We've got our disks on a couple of different floors, neither of which are the same as the floor the mainframes are one. We've got at least three floors of mainframes. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 10 11:27:44 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <001201c13a04$22c1f020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200109100324.f8A3OdI23277@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >No argument from me. I've been checking the document >archives and I used to know this, but how do you display >the system ID? There was a GetSYI parameter or some >such... I imagine the number can be displayed from the >console as well without an OS booted or even present. > >And... is this a number that Encompass will accept? > >John A. When applying for the hobbyist PAK's, last I checked, you can give any number that sounds good to you. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 10 11:29:11 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <001201c13a04$22c1f020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200109100324.f8A3OdI23277@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: >No argument from me. I've been checking the document >archives and I used to know this, but how do you display >the system ID? There was a GetSYI parameter or some >such... I imagine the number can be displayed from the >console as well without an OS booted or even present. > >And... is this a number that Encompass will accept? > >John A. When applying for the hobbyist PAK's, last I checked, you can give any number that sounds good to you. Uh, let me expand on that. You must use your Encompass ID number where it asks for that, but where it asks for the machine serial number (I forget the exact wording) you can use any number. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Mon Sep 10 11:31:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Free PDP 11/34 complete setup - Littlerock, CA In-Reply-To: <20010909191146.V26352@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > I have a pdp11/34 with rsts/e software up for grabs. It was my > fathers, Bill Ramsey, and it needs a good home since he passed away. > There are modems,books, software, tape decks, peripherial equiptment > (monitors and computers) and spare PCB's. Just give us a call at > 661-944-9550 or email us back at kaesplace@aol.com. We are located in > Littlerock,CA. Thank you for your time. Littlerock is (or at least was) this little desert town a little over an hour outside the north end of LA (or the San Fernando Valley really). I'm sure it's grown up a little by now, but it's interesting to hear of a PDP 11/34 sitting out there :) Once you get on the 14 from the 5, figure about 45 minutes to an hour to get to Littlerock. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Sep 10 11:51:46 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B9CEFA2.6020900@aurora.regenstrief.org> Folks, the 11/750 and 11/730 are claimed and will probably be taken. All people who I think are good care-takers. Now the question remains, who wants the HP3000/48? Brian Hechninger has the first right on this because he's trucking the stuff for others. Then, keep in mind these aren't mine, so I don't have the last word on if they go at all, who knows what goes wrong. regards, -Gunther Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I have a contact who needs to get rid of a VAX 11/750 and an > 11/730 real soon and they are in Sommerset County, New Jersey. > A picker-upper would be preferred. There is also an HP 3000/48. > Let me know who wants them and can pick up. If there is contention, > I think one should try sharing, so let me know which one you > really really badly want if you have to choose. > > Thanks, > -Gunther > > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From r.stek at snet.net Mon Sep 10 12:01:43 2001 From: r.stek at snet.net (Bob Stek) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk Message-ID: <000401c13a1a$4b095cb0$0301a8c0@bob> FWIW, I did once correspond with the Catweasel guy and he said it would do N* 10-hole hard-sectored disks, but he had never had a request or seen a N* disk. I was supposed to send him some samples but never got a round tuit. And don't forget, it has already been done - the Microsolutions MatchPoint card allows your PC to read N* disks. Of course, just try to find one! If it provides motivation for one of you hardware types with nothing better to do, I'd lend my support to requesting an add-in card which could handle the 10 and 16 hole 5.25" disks and the 32 hole 8 inchers as well (I have a lot of ProcTech Helios disks). Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols From vance at ikickass.org Mon Sep 10 12:01:26 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. In-Reply-To: <200109101615.f8AGF7i24520@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > Yes. We've got our disks on a couple of different floors, neither of > which are the same as the floor the mainframes are one. We've got at > least three floors of mainframes. Hey Eric. Would you be interested in seeing a picture of my S/390 G1 before I take it off the truck with a forklift? Peace... Sridhar From sieler at allegro.com Mon Sep 10 12:28:24 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DC8@MAIL10> Message-ID: <3B9C95C8.29855.1F0AC6B8@localhost> Re: > Maybe I misunderstood the timing of the message, but I thought that > the 1.0 version of DOS contained copyright information from Digital Research > and when IBM found out, they compelled MS to expunge it, resulting in the > 1.1 version. > Perhaps I missed something earlier, but my recollection was that DOS 1.1 differed from DOS 1.0 in that 1.1 supported double sided floppies, and 1.0 didn't. (Yes, you could get an unofficial patch for 1.0 that added double sided support, but the mechanism it used wasn't compatible with the 1.1 mechanism.) Stan (I waited for 1.1 before buying my first IBM PC) Sieler Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 12:34:50 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Recent finds In-Reply-To: Recent finds (Iggy Drougge) References: <2213.653T1500T2805289optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15260.63930.741969.414428@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 10, Iggy Drougge wrote: > research indicates that this is some PDP-11 (or should it be an LSI-11?) > clone. > Will those two cards we found really suffice for a functioning system? Four > 2901s should only add up to four bits according to my calculations... The 2901 is four bits wide. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Sep 10 12:32:39 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225711@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Hello, all: > > I was able to get my hands on the two DOS 1.0 disks. So, I spent a > few minutes with Sourcer and a good hex editor in search of the DR copyright > notice. I didn't find it. > > Maybe I misunderstood the timing of the message, but I thought that > the 1.0 version of DOS contained copyright information from Digital Research > and when IBM found out, they compelled MS to expunge it, resulting in the > 1.1 version. My recollection (often wrong) was that there was a sequence of code (load register, move to another register, do a call, etc) that was taken verbatim from CP/M and used in DOS; not an ASCII string containing a copyright notice. Regards, -doug q From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 12:35:30 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: VMS Licenses (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <01Sep10.095214edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> <3B9C42A3.49BE596@rave.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103222.009f1580@mcmanis.com> At 06:44 AM 9/10/01, you wrote: >>Hello- >>I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for >>about 6 months with no success. >>i.e. >>http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ >>http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html >>I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install >>OpenVMS to. >>Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal >>or hobbiest channels? Something to note is that the VMS licenses from the Hobbyist program will work on VMS 5.x and beyond, they will _not_ work on VMS 4.x (the LMF changed significantly between 4.x and 5.x). However, since most "classic" folks will want to use VMS 5.5x (all MicroVAXen before the 4000 series) or 6.x (includes the 4000s) that should be fine. Also the older ConDists sell for reasonable amounts on Ebay. Further, there is nothing particularly "special" about the ConDist and they can be copied using a modern CD burner on a PC using an image copy and work just fine (this was how I got my first ConDist) --Chuck From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 12:36:25 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103549.02721800@mcmanis.com> The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill He will have to read it a couple of times but damn if it isn't the best one. --Chuck At 06:44 AM 9/10/01, you wrote: >I'd like to get some recommendations from the list for a good introductory >electronics book for my 14 year-old son. He's interested in building an >intercom system (and other circuits) that he got off the Web, and I would >like something for him to read that will give him a good understanding of >how the circuit works. (For example, it uses the primary windings of a >120V:12V transformer as a coil.) TIA. From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 12:38:04 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <001201c13a04$22c1f020$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <200109100324.f8A3OdI23277@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103645.02721db0@mcmanis.com> At 07:23 AM 9/10/01, John wrote: > > No, this isn't the same. These are licenses, not locks. > >And... is this a number that Encompass will accept? Doesn't matter, it will "accept" anything and it isn't correlated with the VAX hardware. (this may change later but for now you can use "VAX1" "VAX2" etc for those numbers. --Chuck From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 10 12:39:38 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Guide to Collecting Computers - on-line edition. References: Message-ID: <002801c13a1f$90c34cc0$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > Hey Eric. Would you be interested in seeing a picture of my S/390 G1 > before I take it off the truck with a forklift? I'm not Eric, but Yes. --John A. From sieler at allegro.com Mon Sep 10 12:39:01 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: HP 3000 (Micro 3000) free in New Jersey Message-ID: <3B9C9845.9842.1F147DA3@localhost> Hi, Is anyone is interested in a free, working Micro 3000 XE (desktop size Classic HP 3000), complete with disks, tape drive ... and is willing to pick it up (or pay to have it picked up), please contact me soon. Disk drives: HP 7958, and HP 7936. Tape drive: HP 35401 (9144 cartridge tape auto changer) MPE Version is V-Delta 5. It's in Lebanon, New Jersey, off of Route 78. thanks, Stan (cc: Gunther, who knows someone driving to New Jersey soon :) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From rmeenaks at olf.com Mon Sep 10 12:51:05 2001 From: rmeenaks at olf.com (Ram Meenakshisundaram) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103549.02721800@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3B9CFD89.3CFCF215@olf.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill > Great book, but definitely NOT as an introductory book. Suggest he starts out with the electronics basic books from Radio Shack... Ram -- ,,,, /'^'\ ( o o ) -oOOO--(_)--OOOo------------------------------------- | Ram Meenakshisundaram | | Senior Software Engineer | | OpenLink Financial Inc | | .oooO Phone: (516) 227-6600 x267 | | ( ) Oooo. Email: rmeenaks@olf.com | ---\ (----( )-------------------------------------- \_) ) / (_/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:09:54 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string In-Reply-To: <3B9C95C8.29855.1F0AC6B8@localhost> Message-ID: > Maybe I misunderstood the timing of the message, but I thought that > the 1.0 version of DOS contained copyright information from Digital Research > and when IBM found out, they compelled MS to expunge it, resulting in the > 1.1 version. Urban myth possibly based on exaggerations, or misunderstandings of copyright. MS/PC-DOS 1.0 does not appear to contain any direct DR code, but it IS blatently, admittedly, and understandably based directly on CP/M, since QDOS consisted of a placeholder to substitute for an OS while waiting for CP/M-86 to become available. But the same identical story is TRUE for NEWDOS! -- versions prior to -80 contained an encrypted copyright message by Randy Cook (changed to Tandy Corp in TRS-DOS 2.3). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From LFessen106 at aol.com Mon Sep 10 13:12:38 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: HP 3000 (Micro 3000) free in New Jersey Message-ID: <3c.112d788d.28ce5c96@aol.com> In a message dated 9/10/01 2:02:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sieler@allegro.com writes: > Hi, > > Is anyone is interested in a free, > working Micro 3000 XE (desktop size Classic > HP 3000), complete with disks, tape drive > ... and is willing to pick it up (or pay to have it picked up), > please contact me soon. > > Disk drives: HP 7958, and HP 7936. > Tape drive: HP 35401 (9144 cartridge tape auto changer) > MPE Version is V-Delta 5. > > It's in Lebanon, New Jersey, off of Route 78. > > thanks, > > Stan I would be interested possibly. I dont know a thing about them though. I live right off of 78 in Easton PA. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From monty.mcgraw at rlxtechnologies.com Mon Sep 10 13:17:17 2001 From: monty.mcgraw at rlxtechnologies.com (monty.mcgraw@rlxtechnologies.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Any Tektronix 4051, 5042, 4054, or 4662s or IBM 5100s out the re? Message-ID: <89059DB5E4DDD31194A700902798D6B77B71C7@mail.rocketlogix.com> I was successful in finding not only a 4052 with 4662 multipen plotter and 4631 hard copy unit (lots of internet searching) - but also a 4054 on EBAY! I got the 4052 working after repairing the tape drive board and cleaning the tape heads. The 4631 needed new paper and one of the toothed belts - got both and it works fine. The 4054 repair consisted of replacing one of the 16k bit DRAMs! I have also added two Tektronix 4041 GPIB controllers with one line LED displays and built in thermal printers. I now have quite a collection of 4050 and 4041 series tapes - some with my old programs from the late 70's in the USAF, some including the Tek System Tapes and some game tapes, also some of the 4052 cartridges. Sorry, at this point I'm interested in keeping my collection. Contact me direct if you are interested in any tapes, though. Monty McGraw Spring, TX (near Houston) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:23:25 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: DS 1.0 (was: DOS 1.0 copyright string In-Reply-To: <3B9C95C8.29855.1F0AC6B8@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > DOS 1.1 differed from DOS 1.0 in that 1.1 supported double sided > floppies, and 1.0 didn't. In MS-DOS, the DS version was usually called 1.25, but (other than GWBASIC) seemed to be the same as PC-DOS 1.10 > (Yes, you could get an unofficial patch KLUDGE > for 1.0 that added double sided support, but the mechanism it used > wasn't compatible with the 1.1 mechanism.) VERY! It assigned additional drive letters, and used the second side of each drive as if it were another disk! Somewhere, in one of Sellam's boxes from my office is an original copy of the sheet of paper containing that patch. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From wonko at arkham.ws Mon Sep 10 13:19:45 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <3B9CEFA2.6020900@aurora.regenstrief.org>; from gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org on Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 11:51:46AM -0500 References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3B9CEFA2.6020900@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> > the question remains, who wants the HP3000/48? Brian > Hechninger has the first right on this because he's trucking > the stuff for others. i have no need for the HP and neither does dave, so that is still up for grabs. if it needs to be picked up for someone i can do that. -brian From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 10 13:33:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: VMS Licenses (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 10, 2001 10:35:30 AM Message-ID: <200109101833.f8AIXoT25332@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >>Hello- > >>I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for > >>about 6 months with no success. > >>i.e. > >>http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ > >>http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html > >>I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install > >>OpenVMS to. > >>Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal > >>or hobbiest channels? > > > Something to note is that the VMS licenses from the Hobbyist program will > work on VMS 5.x and beyond, they will _not_ work on VMS 4.x (the LMF > changed significantly between 4.x and 5.x). However, since most "classic" > folks will want to use VMS 5.5x (all MicroVAXen before the 4000 series) or > 6.x (includes the 4000s) that should be fine. Also the older ConDists sell > for reasonable amounts on Ebay. Further, there is nothing particularly > "special" about the ConDist and they can be copied using a modern CD burner > on a PC using an image copy and work just fine (this was how I got my first > ConDist) LMF was introduced with VMS 5.0. Before that the licenses were actuall patch files. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:34:22 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <000401c13a1a$4b095cb0$0301a8c0@bob> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Bob Stek wrote: > FWIW, I did once correspond with the Catweasel guy and he said it would > do N* 10-hole hard-sectored disks, but he had never had a request or > seen a N* disk. I was supposed to send him some samples but never got a > round tuit. I'll be glad to believe it as soon as he actually TRIES it. For example: is he aware of the complications created by the drive ready sensing additional circuitry in TEAC drives that uses the index pulse? > And don't forget, it has already been done - the Microsolutions > MatchPoint card allows your PC to read N* disks. Of course, just try to > find one! The Apple Turnover card (Vertex Systems) was once claimed to be able to do it. But NOBODY ever successfully read hard sectors with it. (My contract/bet gave me two weeks to write file system support for it once they would get a successful read of a sector.) > If it provides motivation for one of you hardware types with nothing > better to do, I'd lend my support to requesting an add-in card which > could handle the 10 and 16 hole 5.25" disks and the 32 hole 8 inchers as > well (I have a lot of ProcTech Helios disks). There are numerous people who claim that it is trivial to do, but none of them seem to be able to, and simply claim that they don't WANT to. I think that that ought to be sufficient grounds for molten iron. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From msell at ontimesupport.com Mon Sep 10 13:40:18 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 documentation requested Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010910133558.04d7a070@127.0.0.1> Hey guys, (and gals) Help! : ) I'm trying to find documentation to help get my 11/780 fully operational. The PDP-11/03 starts the internal self-test, but fails right before actually reading the 8" floppy. There was a diagnostic guide on E-Bay that I really wanted, and bid a pretty decent amount on, but it seems someone else needed that document more than I did. Oh well...... If anyone has spare or unused documentation for the VAX 11/780, please let me know. This is needed to get my 780 back to operation. If you want links to a site showing my 780 for proof that I indeed have one, let me know. I realize that some don't want to give up stuff to those who will just turn around and E-Bay it. - Matthew Sell Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 13:41:04 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066114@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910112902.00a28d70@mcmanis.com> At 01:55 AM 9/10/01, Antonio wrote: >I've already scanned the TU58 user manual >and if it's not already on its way to DFWCUG >it soon will be (for some suitable value of >"soon"). Antonio, I really think this is a great idea but maybe you could clear something up for me. Where exactly has the DFWCUG ever indicated that scans sent to them will be made available to others? If you go to their home page there is no mention of it, there are no links to any scans in their "resources" section, there is nothing at all to indicate such things will ever become available. >You do know about the DFWCUG scanning project? >Pointers to them (and a bunch of other >individuals doing the same sort of thing) >can be found at http://www.decdocs.org . Actually a much better link is this one: However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) --Chuck From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 10 13:48:08 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <3B9CFD89.3CFCF215@olf.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103549.02721800@mcmanis.com> <3B9CFD89.3CFCF215@olf.com> Message-ID: <01Sep10.145553edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Check out this 4meg Mac Plus acting as a webserver. On topic since the Mac Plus was introduced in 1986. http://macplus.schoolvision.com/ Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 10 14:04:21 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Sep10.151208edt.119042@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >But the same identical story is TRUE for NEWDOS! -- versions prior to >-80 contained an encrypted copyright message by Randy Cook (changed to >Tandy Corp in TRS-DOS 2.3). Wasn't this at one point shown in a courtroom during a lawsuit between the two? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Sep 10 14:21:39 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3B9CEFA2.6020900@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3B9D12C3.6030701@aurora.regenstrief.org> The HP has a taker meanwhile. It's Lee in Sunnyvale all the way out in California. I don't know how large it is and if we should ask Brian to pick it up anyway to bring to NY. There appears to be a second HP3000 (micro 3000 XE) from Stan, also in NJ. Don't know if this is the identical machine (unlikely.) I don't even know what kind of machine this is anyway, all I know are HP vectra PCs and HP Apollo 9000 PA-RISC workstations (not sure about the 9000). cheers, -Gunther Brian Hechinger wrote: >>the question remains, who wants the HP3000/48? Brian >>Hechninger has the first right on this because he's trucking >>the stuff for others. >> > > i have no need for the HP and neither does dave, so that is still up > for grabs. if it needs to be picked up for someone i can do that. > > -brian > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:29:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 9, 1 06:28:36 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1240 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010910/e565d7c6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:33:31 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Recent finds In-Reply-To: <2213.653T1500T2805289optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Sep 10, 1 04:40:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1820 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010910/775a42b4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:49:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? In-Reply-To: from "Feldman, Robert" at Sep 10, 1 07:44:42 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1909 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010910/27fdd0a4/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:58:13 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? In-Reply-To: <3B9CFD89.3CFCF215@olf.com> from "Ram Meenakshisundaram" at Sep 10, 1 01:51:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 483 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010910/989b218b/attachment.ksh From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Mon Sep 10 14:28:57 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: HP 3000 (Micro 3000) free in New Jersey References: <3B9C9845.9842.1F147DA3@localhost> Message-ID: <3B9D1479.1040700@aurora.regenstrief.org> Stan, we may have two people wanting the available HP 3000. So if they are comparable, it comes just in time. Brian can pickem up both and we'd ship one to Bob and the other to Lee. -Gunther Stan Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > Is anyone is interested in a free, > working Micro 3000 XE (desktop size Classic > HP 3000), complete with disks, tape drive > ... and is willing to pick it up (or pay to have it picked up), > please contact me soon. > > Disk drives: HP 7958, and HP 7936. > Tape drive: HP 35401 (9144 cartridge tape auto changer) > MPE Version is V-Delta 5. > > It's in Lebanon, New Jersey, off of Route 78. > > thanks, > > Stan > > > (cc: Gunther, who knows someone driving to New Jersey soon :) > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:55:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Sep 10, 1 03:44:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010910/2e44092c/attachment.ksh From curt at atari-history.com Mon Sep 10 14:57:46 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Atari 800 Webserver (Was Mac Plus webserver...) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103549.02721800@mcmanis.com> <3B9CFD89.3CFCF215@olf.com> <01Sep10.145553edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <002301c13a32$de9902b0$5e35ff0a@cvendel> Jeff, I've got one better for you, a 1979 Atari 800 being used as a webserver: http://kl.net/atari/ Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 2:48 PM Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... > Check out this 4meg Mac Plus acting as a webserver. On topic > since the Mac Plus was introduced in 1986. > > http://macplus.schoolvision.com/ > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From allain at panix.com Mon Sep 10 15:01:40 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910112902.00a28d70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <002b01c13a33$68b4b160$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more efficient compression, though. John A. From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 15:23:43 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066117@exc-reo1> > ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > >The book you _must_ get is 'The Art of Electronics' by Paul Horowitz and >Winfield Hill. Seconded and thirded :-) I also like A Practical Introduction to Electronic Circuits by Martin Hartley Jones. Electronics for Engineers by Ahmed and Spreadbury is quite good too. Antonio From vance at ikickass.org Mon Sep 10 15:48:15 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: I want it. Put it on the truck for me, Brian. I'll find something good to do with it. Either that, or I will find someone who has a place for it. Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Brian Hechinger wrote: > > the question remains, who wants the HP3000/48? Brian > > Hechninger has the first right on this because he's trucking > > the stuff for others. > > i have no need for the HP and neither does dave, so that is still up > for grabs. if it needs to be picked up for someone i can do that. > > -brian > From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 15:41:40 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066118@exc-reo1> > Chuck McManis wrote: > > something up for me. Where exactly has the DFWCUG ever indicated that scans >sent to them will be made available to others? If you go to their home page > there is no mention of it, there are no links to >any scans in their "resources" section, there is nothing at all to indicate >such things will ever become available. I'm guessing you never read John Wisniewski's post in one (or more) DECnotes conferences on the Easynet where he announced the project - several years ago now! I've sent them about 6 CDs worth of stuff (like the uVAX 2K Tech manual and the KA655 tech manual and the TU58 user guide that appeared over the weekend) so it certainly looks to me as though if you send them scans, they'll make them available. A goodly chunk of the stuff has never been through my hands so either others are sending ready made scans (which they have asked for) or they have scanned manuals themselves which others have sent to them (one of the status messages indicated that they have 500lbs of docs waiting to be scanned). AFAIK they had Digital's blessing to do this (John was openly soliciting information within Digital). Don't take my word for it - scan that 11/730 docset and see if it appears or not - the 11/780 one seems to have made it! >Actually a much better link is this one: > OK - I see the problem now. I pointed Bill at a bunch of places when he announced decdocs.org - it's a nice easy URL and I can remember it without having to search (or organise!) my bookmarks. From there you hit the DFWCUG link and end up at http://montagar.com/~patj/dec/hcps.htm . If you go via the DFWCUG site at http://www.dfwcug.org/, hit the Cheshire cat link near the bottom. I cannot find their "mission statement" anywhere there (I'm sure it used to be there!) but a quick search turns up an update: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Patrick+Jankowiak&hl=en&safe=off&rnum=48&s elm=3A6AA429.5241E8F5%40worldnet.att.net >However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low resolution 8 >bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) Maybe, I usually resort to greyscale for pages with photographs or fine detail that B&W seems to miss. Greyscale is better than nothing ! Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 15:47:49 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 documentation requested Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066119@exc-reo1> > Matthew Sell wrote: > >I'm trying to find documentation to help get my 11/780 fully operational. As of last weekend you'll find a set of six technical manuals over at: http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm They're all technical manuals rather than user guides and maintenance guides but that's all I was sent. The HW user guide may well be on its way sometime ... if it turns up I'll scan it and let you know. I've seen people on this list state before now that they have the printsets so maybe they'll appear one day. >There was a diagnostic guide on E-Bay that I really wanted, and bid a >pretty decent amount on, but it seems someone else needed that document >more than I did. Oh well...... Eighty odd dollars! You could try the seller to see if it was a duplicate and/or you could try the buyer to see if he can either help out or scan it for you. >me know. This is needed to get my 780 back to operation. If you want links >to a site showing my 780 for proof that I indeed have one, let me know. I Links would be nice anyway ... I for one would like to see a VAX-11/780 again! Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 10 15:51:29 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: VMS Licenses (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VA X Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706611A@exc-reo1> > Chuck McManis wrote: > >Something to note is that the VMS licenses from the Hobbyist program will >work on VMS 5.x and beyond, they will _not_ work on VMS 4.x (the LMF >changed significantly between 4.x and 5.x). However, since most "classic" The most significant change being that it sprang into existence with V5.0 :-) Before that VAX/VMS, DECnet and Clustering (and some other SIPs I forget) were enabled or enhanced using patches. I *think* that these patches were being collected in order to be made available on some future Freeware CD but I may be wrong about that. Antonio From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 10 16:06:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:22 2005 Subject: Atari 800 Webserver (Was Mac Plus webserver...) In-Reply-To: <002301c13a32$de9902b0$5e35ff0a@cvendel> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103549.02721800@mcmanis.com> <3B9CFD89.3CFCF215@olf.com> <01Sep10.145553edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <002301c13a32$de9902b0$5e35ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: >Jeff, > > I've got one better for you, a 1979 Atari 800 being used as a webserver: > >http://kl.net/atari/ > >Curt Curt, Yes, I've seen the Atari 800 page before. The thing about the Plus though is that it is actually running the Appletalk networking protocals and the SE/30 is only acting as a bridge/gateway to the TCP/IP ethernet LAN. Granted, it doesn't make much sense to use the more powerful machine only as a gateway in that case, but it's interesting to see that the webserver software still runs on such a lowend machine. I seem to recall that there was a TRS-80 Model IV online at one point in much the same way the Atari 800 is. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From sieler at allegro.com Mon Sep 10 16:03:14 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: HP 3000 (Micro 3000) free in New Jersey In-Reply-To: <3B9D1479.1040700@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B9CC822.1162.1FCF7BDB@localhost> Re: HP 3000 (Micro 3000) free in New Jersey It looks like it's been claimed. Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From edick at idcomm.com Mon Sep 10 16:09:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk References: Message-ID: <000d01c13a3c$e1831ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> It looks like what's needed is to get someone who has both the resources and the need together with this task. I suggested a solution that requires a single chip + and oscillator + a single SIMM/SIPP, simply because fewer people seem inclined to build hardware than to build software. Though I've had several VECTOR computers, albeit not in the past decade, I've never wanted to transfer the content from hard-sectored 5-1/4" diskettes to some other environment. Not even a NorthStar will read the hard sectored format, simply because hard-sectoring allowed so much freedom in controller design. Soft sectoring to a standard format required more uniformity than was generally applied to hard sectoring. Consequently, the hard sectoring went away as a popular approach to FD interfacing. I can't blame anyone for NOT doing this job even though it can be done with only three devices. The payoff just isn't there. The easy way to solve the problem is to get the media to be read together with a computer that can read them. That's already been proposed. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk > > > > > > Really? > > > > The Vector machines that I have seen have all been hard-sectored. I would > > > > LOVE to see a PC (running Teledisk, or ANY other software) be able to do > > > > anything at all except CHOKE on a hard-sectored disk. > > > > On Sun, 9 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Am I allowed to do some hardware hacking? I see no reason why a PC with a > > > suitable card could not read a hard-sectored disk.... > > > > Of course I meant a stock unmodified PC, with "normal" hardware. > > Yes, I know :-). It's just that people so often forget that hardware > modifications are possible, and may sometimes be the best (or only) way > to solve a problem. > > > > > But yes, I'd love to have you make disk controllers for PC that can handle > > hard sectored, GCR, etc. It's certainly quite doable, but there isn't > > much of a commercial market for them. > > Why did I open my big mouth. Looks (and based on some of the other > messages here) like I should think about designing some 'extra' floppy > controllers for the PC. It just won't be soon, so I hope somebody else > has a go (as in builds the thing, not just waffles about how to do it -- > a circuit works when there's a working PCB in front of me, not before > ;-)) so I won't have to :-) > > -tony > > From sieler at allegro.com Mon Sep 10 16:04:52 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <3B9D12C3.6030701@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B9CC884.23897.1FD0FC09@localhost> Re: > The HP has a taker meanwhile. It's Lee in Sunnyvale all the Funny...Lee's near me! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1638.monmouth.com Mon Sep 10 16:12:54 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1638.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: VAX 11/780 documentation requested In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010910133558.04d7a070@127.0.0.1> from Matthew Sell at "Sep 10, 2001 01:40:18 pm" Message-ID: <200109102112.f8ALCsU06497@bg-tc-ppp1638.monmouth.com> > > Hey guys, (and gals) > > Help! : ) > > I'm trying to find documentation to help get my 11/780 fully operational. > > The PDP-11/03 starts the internal self-test, but fails right before > actually reading the 8" floppy. Gimme the actual errors. What's the console say. what does it print after the @ > > If anyone has spare or unused documentation for the VAX 11/780, please let > me know. This is needed to get my 780 back to operation. If you want links > to a site showing my 780 for proof that I indeed have one, let me know. I > realize that some don't want to give up stuff to those who will just turn > around and E-Bay it. I've got some 11/780 docs -- but I really don't want to part with 'em because they're my last ones from my Field Service days. I'll be glad to walk you through the repair. > Matthew Sell > Programmer > On Time Support, Inc. > www.ontimesupport.com --Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 16:16:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <002b01c13a33$68b4b160$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910112902.00a28d70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910141248.00a9eec0@mcmanis.com> This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a 'standard' for their scans. That would help too. --Chuck At 01:01 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: > > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low > > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) > >Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 >bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG >and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more >efficient compression, though. > >John A. From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 16:16:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <002b01c13a33$68b4b160$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910112902.00a28d70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910141248.00a9eec0@mcmanis.com> This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a 'standard' for their scans. That would help too. --Chuck At 01:01 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: > > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low > > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) > >Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 >bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG >and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more >efficient compression, though. > >John A. From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 16:17:22 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910141718.00aa1170@black.eng.netapp.com> This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a 'standard' for their scans. That would help too. --Chuck At 01:01 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: > > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low > > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) > >Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 >bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG >and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more >efficient compression, though. > >John A. From lance at costanzo.net Mon Sep 10 16:36:30 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010910143626.007b83d0@costanzo.net> While IBM, HP, Dec, Intel, Microsoft, and a cast of thousands have been duking it out for the past 31-3/4 years, UNIX time() (ref: man 3 time) has been steadily plodding along and has quietly ticked past 1 billion seconds within the last day or so. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 10 16:42:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 10, 2001 02:16:58 PM Message-ID: <200109102142.f8ALgOc26950@shell1.aracnet.com> > This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" > scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves > exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM I know in my case the max I can manage is 300dpi optical, but that will produce a usable document as long as it doesn't include circuit diagrams. Zane From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Sep 10 17:07:14 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910141248.00a9eec0@mcmanis.com> References: <002b01c13a33$68b4b160$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.1.0.14.0.20010910112902.00a28d70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010910170714.00907ca0@ubanproductions.com> I started looking for an 11x17 scanner (also called A3 or tabloid, from what I can gather). They are hard to find and I was wondering if you have suggestions for a quality flat bed scanner which can handle the larger format, but is not to pricey. The ones which I have found also appear to be SCSI, is OK, but would not be my first choice. --tom At 02:16 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" >scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves >exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM >that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note >that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add >scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a >'standard' for their scans. That would help too. > >--Chuck > >At 01:01 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: >> > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low >> > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) >> >>Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 >>bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG >>and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more >>efficient compression, though. >> >>John A. > > From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:26:11 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218 Message-ID: <3B9D3E03.C59F0A35@tinyworld.co.uk> I'm looking at dumping the ROMs from a VT100 board, but I'm having trouble finding pinouts of the ROMs. The VT100 FMPS says that locations E40, E45, E52 and E56 on the basic board are 8316E 2Kx8 ROMs. However, the schematics don't show the designations for all 24 pins. The online Chip Directory doesn't contain the pinout for the 8316 either. My PROM Programmer will handle 2716 EPROMs, which the Chip Dir. does contain a pinout for, and looks compatible with the 8316. I'd be tempted to try dumping one of them, were it not for the fact that E45 on my board is actually labelled "AM9218CPC", the pinout for which is also absent from the Chip Dir. Could anyone please tell me definitively whether the 8316, 9218 and 2716 are pin-compatible? Cheers, Paul From sieler at allegro.com Mon Sep 10 17:32:02 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010910143626.007b83d0@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <3B9CDCF2.30809.2020CC42@localhost> Re: > While IBM, HP, Dec, Intel, Microsoft, and a cast of thousands have > been duking it out for the past 31-3/4 years, UNIX time() (ref: man 3 time) > has been steadily plodding along and has quietly ticked past 1 billion seconds > within the last day or so. and, some programs/products have died/aborted/fouled up because the # of seconds now takes 10 digits to represent instead of 9! (Sigh) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 17:54:08 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string Message-ID: <00b401c13a4c$7b7ba1f0$dcf09a8d@ajp166> The are several strings embedded in the dos bot in command.com and IBMdos. The bios was uniquely IBM and not a copy. Also there are embedded characters in the code like: code.... move a,h ret DB "D" modecode... push D RET DB "R" and so on, it's spread out a bit. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Cini, Richard To: ClassCompList (E-mail) Date: Monday, September 10, 2001 10:18 AM Subject: DOS 1.0 copyright string >Hello, all: > > I was able to get my hands on the two DOS 1.0 disks. So, I spent a >few minutes with Sourcer and a good hex editor in search of the DR copyright >notice. I didn't find it. > > Maybe I misunderstood the timing of the message, but I thought that >the 1.0 version of DOS contained copyright information from Digital Research >and when IBM found out, they compelled MS to expunge it, resulting in the >1.1 version. > > The file dates are as follows: > >c:\>dir a: > Volume in drive A is 3COM53_D1 > Volume Serial Number is 11DC-3A5E > > Directory of A:\ > >07/23/81 12:00a 1,920 IBMBIO.COM *** >08/04/81 12:00a 3,231 COMMAND.COM *** >08/13/81 12:00a 6,400 IBMDOS.COM *** >09/10/01 09:28a 66,235 COMMAND.LST >09/10/01 09:27a 4,374 IBMBIO.SDF >09/10/01 09:28a 143,874 IBMDOS.LST >09/10/01 09:28a 16,231 IBMDOS.SDF >09/10/01 09:27a 25,780 IBMBIO.LST >09/10/01 09:28a 10,141 COMMAND.SDF > 9 File(s) 278,186 bytes > 1,177,088 bytes free > > The files are all dated before the PC's release. I find it >interesting that the file date for DOS proper was one week before the PC >announcement. Microsoft tweaking until the last minute. > > IBMBIO contains only a revision mark and no copyright notice. IBMDOS >contains a header common to all versions of DOS ("M;S<>=~KRAA") and no >copyright notice. COMMAND contains a copyright message which is the one >probably displayed upon execution: > > The IBM Personal Computer DOS > Version 1.00 > (C)Copyright IBM Corp 1981 > Licensed Material - Program Property of IBM > > So, where did I go wrong?? > >Rich > > >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 18:03:21 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk Message-ID: <00c101c13a4e$2889bca0$dcf09a8d@ajp166> Doing it for N* and any other IE: multiple hard sector formats would be a challenge as the structure of the data differed greatly and also the timing. Also most of the hard sector controllers were uniquely dumb. By that I mean they depended on the CPU (even the lowly 8080) to do a great amount of the work. for example stepping the head in or out was usually done by setting a direction bit and timing out a step pulse(s) as needed. Sector read and write were assisted at the byte level with a usually simple FM/MFM/M2FM encode decode and a shift register plus a simple sync recognizer. Of course all of them went about it differently with variations abounding. Me I'd do a ISA to S100 adaptor and write code... ah foo it's easier to use a real ns* and far more productive. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bob Stek To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, September 10, 2001 1:49 PM Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk >FWIW, I did once correspond with the Catweasel guy and he said it would >do N* 10-hole hard-sectored disks, but he had never had a request or >seen a N* disk. I was supposed to send him some samples but never got a >round tuit. > >And don't forget, it has already been done - the Microsolutions >MatchPoint card allows your PC to read N* disks. Of course, just try to >find one! > >If it provides motivation for one of you hardware types with nothing >better to do, I'd lend my support to requesting an add-in card which >could handle the 10 and 16 hole 5.25" disks and the 32 hole 8 inchers as >well (I have a lot of ProcTech Helios disks). > >Bob Stek >Saver of Lost Sols > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:32:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <000d01c13a3c$e1831ec0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 10, 1 03:09:29 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 617 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010910/8d5e1552/attachment.ksh From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Sep 10 18:39:00 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218 In-Reply-To: <3B9D3E03.C59F0A35@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010910163803.02cd3db0@mail.zipcon.net> From the classiccomp archives :) http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/2000-02/0645.html AMD used 91xx for RAM, 92xx for mask ROM (with a couple of exceptions), and >97xx for EPROM. AM9217 is an NMOS 2048 x 8-bit ROM; A is the speed >(550ns), P means 24-pin plastic, C means commercial temperature range (0-70 >Celcius). Pinout is the same as an 8316, 2716 compatible, but the chip >selects on pins 18,20,21 can be specified either active-high or active-low. > The AM9217 was superceded in the late 70's by the AM9218. does that help? At 11:26 PM 9/10/01 +0100, you wrote: >I'm looking at dumping the ROMs from a VT100 board, but I'm having >trouble finding pinouts of the ROMs. > >The VT100 FMPS says that locations E40, E45, E52 and E56 on the basic >board are 8316E 2Kx8 ROMs. However, the schematics don't show the >designations for all 24 pins. The online Chip Directory doesn't contain >the pinout for the 8316 either. > >My PROM Programmer will handle 2716 EPROMs, which the Chip Dir. does >contain a pinout for, and looks compatible with the 8316. I'd be tempted >to try dumping one of them, were it not for the fact that E45 on my >board is actually labelled "AM9218CPC", the pinout for which is also >absent from the Chip Dir. > >Could anyone please tell me definitively whether the 8316, 9218 and 2716 >are pin-compatible? > >Cheers, >Paul From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 18:51:06 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910165101.026c1570@mcmanis.com> In california that was : orbit% ./bday Time to roll is Sat Sep 8 18:46:40 2001 orbit% cat bday.c #include #include #include int main(int argc, char *argv[]) { unsigned long now; now = 1000000000L; printf("Time to roll is %s\n", ctime(&now)); exit(0); } orbit% At 02:36 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: >While IBM, HP, Dec, Intel, Microsoft, and a cast of thousands have >been duking it out for the past 31-3/4 years, UNIX time() (ref: man 3 time) >has been steadily plodding along and has quietly ticked past 1 billion seconds >within the last day or so. From cmcmanis at netapp.com Mon Sep 10 18:58:52 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066118@exc-reo1> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910165302.026c0910@mcmanis.com> At 01:41 PM 9/10/01, Antonio wrote: > I'm guessing you never read John Wisniewski's > post in one (or more) DECnotes conferences > on the Easynet where he announced the > project - several years ago now! That's correct. I've only heard of the project mentioned anecdotally. > From there you hit the DFWCUG link > and end up at http://montagar.com/~patj/dec/hcps.htm . > If you go via the DFWCUG site at http://www.dfwcug.org/, > hit the Cheshire cat link near the bottom. And you need to know that hcps is the "Hardware Prservation Society", so not only is there no mention of this "project" on the DFW home page, nor are there any reasonable search terms that something like Google could use to index the pages! Oh well, its in my book marks now and the archives will cache this message, perhaps others will be able to find it later. > Maybe, I usually resort to greyscale for pages with > photographs or fine detail that B&W seems to miss. > Greyscale is better than nothing ! Greyscale is better than nothing, granted. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Sep 10 19:07:36 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218 In-Reply-To: Paul Williams "Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218" (Sep 10, 23:26) References: <3B9D3E03.C59F0A35@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <10109110107.ZM3259@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 10, 23:26, Paul Williams wrote: > I'm looking at dumping the ROMs from a VT100 board, but I'm having > trouble finding pinouts of the ROMs. > > The VT100 FMPS says that locations E40, E45, E52 and E56 on the basic > board are 8316E 2Kx8 ROMs. However, the schematics don't show the > designations for all 24 pins. The online Chip Directory doesn't contain > the pinout for the 8316 either. > > My PROM Programmer will handle 2716 EPROMs, which the Chip Dir. does > contain a pinout for, and looks compatible with the 8316. I'd be tempted > to try dumping one of them, were it not for the fact that E45 on my > board is actually labelled "AM9218CPC", the pinout for which is also > absent from the Chip Dir. > > Could anyone please tell me definitively whether the 8316, 9218 and 2716 > are pin-compatible? Nearly, providing you're referring to the 5-volt-only 2716. The polarity of the chip selects is mask-programmable on the 8316. I don't know which way DEC used for the VT100, but the way they usually did it was CS1 and CS2 (pins 18 and 20) active-low with CS3 active high (pin 21, Vpp on a 2716, which is usually at +5V for reading). The alternative is CS1, CS2, and CS3 all active-low. So if you are reading DEC 8316's on a programmer, set it for 2716, and if it reads as if empty, bend out pin 21 and ground it. I'd be interested to know which VT100 ROMs you have, since I collect such things. The number that matters is something like 23-031E2 (23- means ROM, 031 is the code number, and E2 means 16K bit). The standard VT100 ROMs are 031 (or 061), 032, 033, and 034, but there are lots of variants. I have images (and original ROMs) of 061, 032, 033, 034 but I'd like to get any others to add to the archive. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From louiss at gate.net Mon Sep 10 19:20:05 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109110021.UAA24260@smtp6.mindspring.com> On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: #> > I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works #> > with their card or any card. #> #> The card claims to be compatible with the IBM IEEE card, # #Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2, and they are totally #different. I was given an IBM IEEE488 card which uses a pair of 9914 #chips (one for data transfer, one to send commands, I think). The one in #the O&A Techref is based round a NEC 7210 chip. The information I received from Brain Boxes is that their card uses the NEC 7210 chip. They still have some of these cards in stock, although they are no longer in production. They sent me a very helpful e-mail. The only problem is that they want 320 pounds for one card. Well, I don't know what things cost in Britain, but out-of-production DOS-based ISA cards generally don't sell for US $540. Usually, it is more like US $5, maybe new US $50. So, I don't think I will be doing any business with Brain Boxes. Louis From vance at ikickass.org Mon Sep 10 19:24:33 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010910143626.007b83d0@costanzo.net> Message-ID: Excellent! Peace... Sridhar On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Lance Costanzo wrote: > While IBM, HP, Dec, Intel, Microsoft, and a cast of thousands have > been duking it out for the past 31-3/4 years, UNIX time() (ref: man 3 time) > has been steadily plodding along and has quietly ticked past 1 billion seconds > within the last day or so. > From jss at subatomix.com Mon Sep 10 19:27:53 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <3B9CDCF2.30809.2020CC42@localhost> Message-ID: <20010910184739.F31586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Stan Sieler wrote: > > programs/products have died/aborted/fouled up because the # of seconds > now takes 10 digits to represent instead of 9! So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any that would have if they were still running today)? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From optimus at canit.se Mon Sep 10 20:22:52 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <939.654T2600T1426413optimus@canit.se> Russ Blakeman skrev: >I'm glad that you're so special to have all of this for free, not everyone >has time to scrounge the dumpsters and some like in the box parts. My, aren't we civil today, Russ? Not nearly as civil as you were in private, though. >Don't know where you got HTML from, I send all the list mail as plain text. Of course you do. It's the listserver that encodes random message bodies into HTML for the fun of it. Outlook is after all a very reliable program from which HTML has never once emanated. And its lu^H^Husers are very knowledgeable and professional when it comes to electronic correspondance. After all, that's why they choose such a competent, professional programs with all its useful features like backwards quoting, HTML and RTF mail. IOW, go to hell, Russ, don't be such a bastard when *you* screw up. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. The gates in my computer are AND, OR, and NOT, not Bill. --Tony Duell From optimus at canit.se Mon Sep 10 20:07:53 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Atari 800 Webserver (Was Mac Plus webserver...) In-Reply-To: <002301c13a32$de9902b0$5e35ff0a@cvendel> Message-ID: <661.654T2650T1276375optimus@canit.se> Curt Vendel skrev: > I've got one better for you, a 1979 Atari 800 being used as a webserver: >http://kl.net/atari/ Well, that's no real web server. After all, it doesn't answer to TCP/IP calls, it's more like a CGI script running on a 6502. IMHO, of course. Mind you, I think it could be done for real. There are after all TCP/IP packages for a lot of 8-bitters nowadays. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus drivers. From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 10 19:56:00 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B9D6120.6AB8DB1A@tiac.net> Can you tell me anything about the HP3000/48? Gunther Schadow wrote: > Hi, > > I have a contact who needs to get rid of a VAX 11/750 and an > 11/730 real soon and they are in Sommerset County, New Jersey. > A picker-upper would be preferred. There is also an HP 3000/48. > Let me know who wants them and can pick up. If there is contention, > I think one should try sharing, so let me know which one you > really really badly want if you have to choose. > > Thanks, > -Gunther > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 10 20:02:47 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3B9CEFA2.6020900@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3B9D62B7.B0BBDB18@tiac.net> I can give the 3000 a good home, I've got some HP1000 gear now, and room for more. Brian Hechinger wrote: > > the question remains, who wants the HP3000/48? Brian > > Hechninger has the first right on this because he's trucking > > the stuff for others. > > i have no need for the HP and neither does dave, so that is still up > for grabs. if it needs to be picked up for someone i can do that. > > -brian From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 10 20:04:17 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3B9CEFA2.6020900@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3B9D12C3.6030701@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3B9D6311.7506F20B@tiac.net> Well, if its taken, its taken, But if its an old, large HP3000, I'm located in Mass. Gunther Schadow wrote: > The HP has a taker meanwhile. It's Lee in Sunnyvale all the > way out in California. I don't know how large it is and > if we should ask Brian to pick it up anyway to bring to > NY. There appears to be a second HP3000 (micro 3000 XE) > from Stan, also in NJ. Don't know if this is the identical > machine (unlikely.) I don't even know what kind of > machine this is anyway, all I know are HP vectra PCs and > HP Apollo 9000 PA-RISC workstations (not sure about the > 9000). > > cheers, > -Gunther > > Brian Hechinger wrote: > > >>the question remains, who wants the HP3000/48? Brian > >>Hechninger has the first right on this because he's trucking > >>the stuff for others. > >> > > > > i have no need for the HP and neither does dave, so that is still up > > for grabs. if it needs to be picked up for someone i can do that. > > > > -brian > > > > -- > Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org > Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care > Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine > tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From curt at atari-history.com Mon Sep 10 20:22:14 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Atari 800 Webserver (Was Mac Plus webserver...) References: <661.654T2650T1276375optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002b01c13a60$3082e280$c2609040@syzygy2> Yeah.... I know its a kinda kludgy way of doing it, but its cool nonetheless :-) Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Curt Vendel" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: Atari 800 Webserver (Was Mac Plus webserver...) > Curt Vendel skrev: > > > I've got one better for you, a 1979 Atari 800 being used as a webserver: > >http://kl.net/atari/ > > Well, that's no real web server. After all, it doesn't answer to TCP/IP calls, > it's more like a CGI script running on a 6502. > IMHO, of course. > Mind you, I think it could be done for real. There are after all TCP/IP > packages for a lot of 8-bitters nowadays. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > VIRGO (Aug 23 - Sept 22) > You are the logical type and hate disorder. This nitpicking is > sickening to your friends. You are cold and unemotional and > sometimes fall asleep while making love. Virgos make good bus > drivers. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 20:46:53 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet Message-ID: <010701c13a65$4a7a4700$dcf09a8d@ajp166> Sorry but your wrong. Here in the USA IEEE-488/GPIB cards are considered industrial interfaces and command premium prices. I bought one for a control system and paid $399US!! That was for a cheaper non-dma slow GPIB. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Louis Schulman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:13 PM Subject: Re: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet >On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: > >#> > I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works >#> > with their card or any card. >#> >#> The card claims to be compatible with the IBM IEEE card, ># >#Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2, and they are totally >#different. I was given an IBM IEEE488 card which uses a pair of 9914 >#chips (one for data transfer, one to send commands, I think). The one in >#the O&A Techref is based round a NEC 7210 chip. > >The information I received from Brain Boxes is that their card uses the NEC 7210 chip. They still have some >of these cards in stock, although they are no longer in production. They sent me a very helpful e-mail. The >only problem is that they want 320 pounds for one card. > >Well, I don't know what things cost in Britain, but out-of-production DOS-based ISA cards generally don't >sell for US $540. Usually, it is more like US $5, maybe new US $50. So, I don't think I will be doing any >business with Brain Boxes. > >Louis > From kd7bcy at teleport.com Mon Sep 10 16:30:58 2001 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467051@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467051@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: >Those would be DEC MMJ ports... What's an MMJ? And in response to the previous reply, yes there is power going to the VGA port. And as soon as I'm done working on my VW, I'll cut that line out and see what happens. Gee, who would've thought that VW steering dampers have different size threads on them, even though they have the same part number? Hmm... -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Sep 10 21:44:50 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <010701c13a65$4a7a4700$dcf09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: Same here, when I bought 2 model 70 IBM PS/2's with microchannel IEEE-488 cards, they cost me $50 each but I knew the seller knew nothing of the internal cards. I turned one unit around (thinking I'd get my $100 back) and it closed on auction for over $350 and the buyer was happier than a pig in poop to get it that cheap (I threw in a 2 mter cable as well). This was just over year ago. I had mine running with my HP 54210D digitizing o'scope for awhile but I think soon that machine is going to be on the auction block as well due to lack of time and interest. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of ajp166 -> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 8:47 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet -> -> -> Sorry but your wrong. -> -> Here in the USA IEEE-488/GPIB cards are considered industrial -> interfaces and command premium prices. I bought one for a -> control system and paid $399US!! That was for a cheaper non-dma -> slow GPIB. -> -> Allison -> -> -----Original Message----- -> From: Louis Schulman -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Date: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:13 PM -> Subject: Re: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet -> -> -> >On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST), Tony Duell wrote: -> > -> >#> > I don't know if the Brain Box supplied software only works -> >#> > with their card or any card. -> >#> -> >#> The card claims to be compatible with the IBM IEEE card, -> ># -> >#Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2, and they are totally -> >#different. I was given an IBM IEEE488 card which uses a pair of 9914 -> >#chips (one for data transfer, one to send commands, I think). The one -> in -> >#the O&A Techref is based round a NEC 7210 chip. -> > -> >The information I received from Brain Boxes is that their card uses the -> NEC 7210 chip. They still have some -> >of these cards in stock, although they are no longer in production. -> They sent me a very helpful e-mail. The -> >only problem is that they want 320 pounds for one card. -> > -> >Well, I don't know what things cost in Britain, but out-of-production -> DOS-based ISA cards generally don't -> >sell for US $540. Usually, it is more like US $5, maybe new US $50. -> So, I don't think I will be doing any -> >business with Brain Boxes. -> > -> >Louis -> > -> -> From technos at nerdland.org Mon Sep 10 22:05:52 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <01C13A4D.245F6950.technos@nerdland.org> I work in digital imaging for part of my living, and do work for a number of archival projects as well. 600dpi@1bpp is insane. 300dpi is usually fine, if there is a prob increase the image depth. Jim On Monday, September 10, 2001 5:17 PM, Chuck McManis [SMTP:cmcmanis@netapp.com] wrote: > > > This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the > "best" > scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This > achieves > exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The > KA655 TM > that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit > (note > that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll > add > scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up > with a > 'standard' for their scans. That would help too. > > --Chuck > From cbajpai at mediaone.net Mon Sep 10 22:23:21 2001 From: cbajpai at mediaone.net (Chandra Bajpai) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Apple ][ disk controller state machine In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD372256F4@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: I think the Lisa Twiggy shared the same encoding techniques and variable spin rates that the 400K Mac drive/IWM combo had. I never looked at my Lisa 2 I/O board, but I wonder if it contains the same IWM chip. Apple also upgraded the IWM in later Macs (~1987 or 89) to handle higher disk densities. The chip was renamed the Super IWM...I think the Mac IIci or IIfx was the first of Macs to get this new chip. -Chandra -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 8:25 AM To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Subject: RE: Apple ][ disk controller state machine > Thanks, dq. I have seen that doc, but it speaks mainly of the > 3.5 drive, which had several enhancements not available on the > 5.25 drive. Was the Apple ][ controller sufficiently similar to > the IIgs and progeny that this documentation is appropriate for > it also? I've never heard the Apple ][ controller chip referred > to as 'IWM' -- is that my ignorance, or was the chip renamed, or > are they (maybe slightly) different beasts? It's my understanding that the single-chip Integrated WOZ Machine replaced and duplicated the function of the discrete-component-based equivalent on the Apple II family... FWIW, the Lisa 1 and the very first non-production Macs used a strange 5.25 inch floppy known as the Twiggy Drive... I can show you photos of Macs that had been retrofitted for the 3.5 inch drives, but those drives are visible through huge 5.25 inch gaping holes... So while I can't say with certainty, I doubt the original circuit has any capability not duplicated in the IWM chips. Regards, -dq From edick at idcomm.com Mon Sep 10 22:34:05 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk References: Message-ID: <003601c13a72$9bb074c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I should have guessed that, since programmable parts are probably not what you'd choose for a job you're likely to have to maintain later. The in-situ-programmability does make it pretty easy to maintain, though, and the fact it's specified to drive 20 mA on each pin (though it clearly can't do that on ALL its pins, makes it capable of driving the cable + terminations. If only it were in an easier package to handle ... I like building hardware too, but the hour or two that it would take for the hardware, combined with the endless hours of fiddling with the software with which to process the captured data sample, would make this less pleasant than I'd prefer. I've got several old schematics for hard-sectored controllers based on old I/O LSI's, e.g. a PIA and a sync-serial port, along with several different schemes for responding to the index/sector pulses, all of which are different, so I know it would be a fishing expedition, automated on the PC. One of these schemes automatically inserted a sync character and 14 bytes of some sync field into the stream each time a sector pulse was encountered. With such irregularities, it has to be a mainly host-software task. The sampling hardware is pretty simple, and even the firmware would be quite straightforward since the MCU is so fast and the task so leisurely. The host-software, OTOH ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 4:32 PM Subject: Re: Vector 3/Teledisk > > > > It looks like what's needed is to get someone who has both the resources and the > > need together with this task. I suggested a solution that requires a single > > Exactly... At the moment I don't have the need, but I do have a fair > number of other projects to do. So I am not volunteering to take this one > on... > > > chip + and oscillator + a single SIMM/SIPP, simply because fewer people seem > > inclined to build hardware than to build software. Though I've had several > > As I have said many times I prefer to build hardware. So if I do this, > it's likely to end up as a board of 'interesting' chips :-) > > -tony > > From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Sep 10 22:42:47 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day Message-ID: >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any >that would have if they were still running today)? Big Ben in London? :-p -chris From donm at cts.com Mon Sep 10 23:36:02 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Chris wrote: > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > >that would have if they were still running today)? > > Big Ben in London? :-p Relative youngster! What comes to mind immediately - and I know that there are older ones - is the chiming clock in the Piazza San Marco of Venice that has been telling time since prior to 1492. - don From mrbill at mrbill.net Mon Sep 10 23:51:56 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <20010910184739.F31586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <3B9CDCF2.30809.2020CC42@localhost> <20010910184739.F31586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010910235156.J18242@mrbill.net> On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 07:27:53PM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > that would have if they were still running today)? Speaking of which, does anybody have URL/info on the rumor I keep hearing of an OpenVMS system with a TEN YEAR uptime back in the 80s? Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 00:07:34 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day References: Message-ID: <00e601c13a7f$b8d66340$1b28b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > >that would have if they were still running today)? > > Big Ben in London? :-p > I was just in London a few weeks ago, and people take great glee in repeatedly telling you that Big Ben is the "bell" behind the clock, not the clock. True? -W From wmsmith at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 00:14:02 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day References: Message-ID: <00ec01c13a80$9261ea80$1b28b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Chris wrote: > > > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > > >that would have if they were still running today)? > > > > Big Ben in London? :-p > > Relative youngster! What comes to mind immediately - and I know that > there are older ones - is the chiming clock in the Piazza San Marco of > Venice that has been telling time since prior to 1492. > > - don > Stonehenge? From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue Sep 11 00:21:01 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <01C13A4D.245F6950.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <00e701c13a81$8c882790$0100a8c0@dellhare> Jim ...so what tools do you find adequate/appropriate for scanning manuals, "cleaning" them up, and converting to Adobe .pdf format... and on what platform(s).. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Tuck" To: Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 9:05 PM Subject: RE: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX > I work in digital imaging for part of my living, and do work for a > number of > archival projects as well. > > 600dpi@1bpp is insane. 300dpi is usually fine, if there is a prob > increase the > image depth. > > Jim > > > On Monday, September 10, 2001 5:17 PM, Chuck McManis > [SMTP:cmcmanis@netapp.com] wrote: > > > > > > This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the > > "best" > > scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This > > achieves > > exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The > > KA655 TM > > that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit > > (note > > that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll > > add > > scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up > > with a > > 'standard' for their scans. That would help too. > > > > --Chuck > > From geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au Tue Sep 11 00:12:38 2001 From: geoffrob at stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au (Geoff Roberts) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day References: Message-ID: <01c301c13a82$33235e80$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:06 PM Subject: Re: Administrivia - Billion Second Day > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Chris wrote: > > > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > > >that would have if they were still running today)? > > > > Big Ben in London? :-p > > Relative youngster! What comes to mind immediately - and I know that > there are older ones - is the chiming clock in the Piazza San Marco of > Venice that has been telling time since prior to 1492. Remember seeing something on Discovery about a recently restored clock dating from the 13th or 14th century, it has no face, (by design - not because it lost it) just sounds a bell at the appropriate hours/half hours IIRC. Somewhere in England. Can't recall where now.. Cheers Geoff in Oz From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Sep 11 01:03:47 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706611B@exc-reo1> Chuck McManis wrote: > This topic has gone over the list a few times, from > experience, the "best" > scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. No problem here. > The KA655 TM that is on the DFWCUG > site appears from the PDF to be 100 > DPI/8 bit (note > that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to > read) The KA655 TM was done at 600dpi ... the source, however, was a none-too-good photocopy. Remember that Acrobat will display however you tell it to and fit-to-page on a 17" monitor looks quite different to the same on a 19" or 21" monitor. Try fit-to-width and see if that helps. > scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have > come up with a > 'standard' for their scans. That would help too. I suspect that if they mandated a standard then they might put off people who might otherwise contribute (and I still say that any scan is always better than no scan!). The scans just need to be good enough to be able to be OCRd perfectly 10 years from now (once someone gets around to writing OCR software that works almost perfectly rather than the current crop which seems to fail most of the time). Antonio From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Tue Sep 11 01:17:14 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218 References: <3B9D3E03.C59F0A35@tinyworld.co.uk> <10109110107.ZM3259@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <3B9DAC6A.2ADC4836@tinyworld.co.uk> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Sep 10, 23:26, Paul Williams wrote: > > I'm looking at dumping the ROMs from a VT100 board, but I'm having > > trouble finding pinouts of the ROMs. > > > > Could anyone please tell me definitively whether the 8316, 9218 > > and 2716 are pin-compatible? > > Nearly, providing you're referring to the 5-volt-only 2716. The > polarity of the chip selects is mask-programmable on the 8316. I > don't know which way DEC used for the VT100, but the way they > usually did it was CS1 and CS2 (pins 18 and 20) active-low with > CS3 active high That's interesting, I hadn't realised it was selectable. I'll check the polarity on the FMPS. > So if you are reading DEC 8316's on a programmer, set it for 2716, > and if it reads as if empty, bend out pin 21 and ground it. Thanks, although that would be redundant, after your next statement... > I'd be interested to know which VT100 ROMs you have > The standard VT100 ROMs are 031 (or 061), 032, 033, and 034, but > there are lots of variants. 061, 032, 033, 034, exactly as the FMPS says. > I have images (and original ROMs) of 061, 032, 033, 034 but I'd > like to get any others to add to the archive. They're not online, Pete! I would like a copy of those, please, because there is a guy on comp.sys.dec who is planning a VT100 front-end to Bob Supnik's SIMH (thread called "Need VT100 Expert"). I would also like a copy of the chargen ROM, 23018E2-00, if you've got it. Would you like a copy of the VT320 ROM? I've got that handy. From technos at nerdland.org Tue Sep 11 01:31:55 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <01C13A69.F7E67FE0.technos@nerdland.org> For me, it's usually Kofax Imagecontrols for capture, destripe, deskew, and char rebuild. (I happen to have a nice Fujitsu high- speed document scanner with Kofax accelerator). I have used Photoshop and a series of filters to do the same thing, albeit slower. Gimp works just as well as PS. Photoshop on Macs, Kofax on NT, and Gimp on *nix. To convert to PDF, I normally use ABBYY FineReader 5.0, a very nice bit of OCR software. It preserves layout well, does near-font conversion of readables, and includes images of whatever is questionable. I have also used tif2ps and ps2pdf on *nix, operating on the source tiff. This is usually best if I want near-perfect PDFs from the source images. I'll be honest; I don't have that much demand for PDF. Most of my work product is either plain ASCII text or multipage TIFF. I'll do an odd PDF once every few months for Marketing, that's it. Other people could comment much better on PDF conversion. Jim On Tuesday, September 11, 2001 1:21 AM, Bruce Ray [SMTP:bkr@WildHareComputers.com] wrote: > Jim > > ...so what tools do you find adequate/appropriate for scanning > manuals, > "cleaning" them up, and converting to Adobe .pdf format... and on > what > platform(s).. > > Bruce From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 11 01:49:39 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:23 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? In-Reply-To: John Rollins "RE: Some new stuff. What is it?" (Sep 10, 14:30) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467051@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <10109110749.ZM3474@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 10, 14:30, John Rollins wrote: > >Those would be DEC MMJ ports... > > What's an MMJ? It stands for Modified Modular Jack. DEC took a standard RJ12 plug and moved the position of the latch off to one side. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Sep 11 02:09:17 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706611C@exc-reo1> Jim Tuck wrote: > To convert to PDF, I normally use ABBYY FineReader 5.0, a > very nice bit of OCR software. It preserves layout well, does > near-font conversion of readables, and includes images of > whatever is questionable. >From my pov, the most interesting question is how close to 100% correct conversion does it manage to do? Give an A4 (or US Letter) page full of text, how many errors (i.e. incorrect letter or punctuation mark) would you expect to see after proof-reading manually? (Questionable usages where the character is inserted as an image don't really count since there is no "loss" of information ... they don't help reduce the size either though). Does it take PDF wrapped around TIFF as an input? Antonio From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 02:32:37 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467051@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <10109110749.ZM3474@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <3B9DBE15.DB0DB0F8@internet1.net> I just ordered an Ideal CrimpMaster crimper and 25 connectors through Kendall Electric. The total came to more than I had hoped, but at least I'll have them. Total was about $70! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On Sep 10, 14:30, John Rollins wrote: > > >Those would be DEC MMJ ports... > > > > What's an MMJ? > > It stands for Modified Modular Jack. DEC took a standard RJ12 plug and > moved the position of the latch off to one side. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 11 04:05:09 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910141248.00a9eec0@mcmanis.com> References: <002b01c13a33$68b4b160$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> <5.1.0.14.0.20010910112902.00a28d70@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010911020122.00bd8f00@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 02:16 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" >scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves >exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM >that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note >that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add >scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a >'standard' for their scans. That would help too. > >--Chuck I agree that 300 dpi @ 1bpp is superior for text and line art than 100 dpi @ 8bpp, but I think your math is askew. You need to compare the # of bits per sq in, not inch. So 100 dpi @ 8bpp is 10KB/in^2, while 300 dpi @ 1bpp is 11.25 KB/in^2. For text and line art, though, the 1bpp image will compress a lot better. And if, for some reason, you want to scan line art and text in gray scale, 4bpp is plenty enough. Use 8bpp only for continuous-tone images. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 04:35:15 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Relative youngster! What comes to mind immediately - and I know that >there are older ones - is the chiming clock in the Piazza San Marco of >Venice that has been telling time since prior to 1492. When I was there visiting a few years ago they were just getting ready to unveil it for it's 500th birthday. It was pretty impressive, as was the city as a whole. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Sep 11 05:52:10 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC4706611D@exc-reo1> Jim Battle wrote: > At 02:16 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: > excess. The KA655 TM > >that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 > DPI/8 bit (note > >that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to I don't know where 100dpi/8-bit came from - its 600dpi/1-bit (apart from maybe one or two pages which are 600dpi/8-bit). I don't know how to persuade Acrobat to tell me what the underlying resolution is, but I expect it's possible! > I agree that 300 dpi @ 1bpp is superior for text and line art > than 100 dpi > @ 8bpp, but I think your math is askew. You need to compare > the # of bits > per sq in, not inch. So 100 dpi @ 8bpp is 10KB/in^2, while > 300 dpi @ 1bpp > is 11.25 KB/in^2. For text and line art, though, the 1bpp image will > compress a lot better. I make 600dpi/1-bit to be a smidgen under 44KB/sq-in. This is an A4 scan (of a photocopy of an original which is less than A4 in all dimensions IIRC) so thats 8.5x11.5in i.e. anything less than ~4MB/page is compression kicking in! I think the pages average something like 300KB/page. I get PDF direct from the scanner but I don't think it does G4 compression. If anyone has a tool which will take in a PDF and spit out a G4-compressed PDF, I'd be very interested. I think I've seen people claim that 300dpi/1-bit scans run at about 60KB/page so I assume that G4 compression would bring these documents down to about 250KB/page (15-20% smaller). Of course, "perfect" OCR would knock it down a good deal more than that! Antonio > > And if, for some reason, you want to scan line art and text > in gray scale, > 4bpp is plenty enough. Use 8bpp only for continuous-tone images. Possibly true (although almost every page that I use 8-bit for does have a photo of some gubbin or other). But the scanner spits out 1-bit or 8-bit and there are not that many knobs available for tweaking. Antonio From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 08:22:32 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade buildings... one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I believe... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 09:00:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these were specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than that ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 AM Subject: OT: World Trade crash... > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 09:09:56 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2, and they are totally > different. I was given an IBM IEEE488 card which uses a pair of 9914 > chips (one for data transfer, one to send commands, I think). The one in > the O&A Techref is based round a NEC 7210 chip. My Brain Boxes card has a 7210 chip, plus the two IEEE bus buffer chips and a bunch of PALs, buffers, etc. for the ISA bus. There are six DIP-switches for the base address and mode, plus some jumpers for IRQ and DMA settings. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Tue Sep 11 09:13:18 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <200109110021.UAA24260@smtp6.mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:20:05 -0400 (EDT) Louis Schulman wrote: > The information I received from Brain Boxes is that their > card uses the NEC 7210 chip. Yes, indeed. > They sent me a very helpful e-mail. Now that's good news -- a company that's helpful about old, "obsolete" products! > The only problem is that they want 320 pounds for one > card. Ooh, that's a problem. I paid two pounds for it, in a junk shop. Shame there was only one -- I did rummage about in the box for quite a while! -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 09:27:33 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146705C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> All my prayers go out to all the victims... Some updates & summary from various sources... Two planes have flown into both towers of the World Trade Center, one plane (an American Airlines 767) is known to have been hijacked from an airport in Boston. The towers have been evacuated. Uh oh, some are still in the towers, two people just jumped. Part of the World Trade tower has collapsed All traffic in and out of NY has been stopped, no one in, no one out. All airports in US have been shut down. No flights in, no flights out. 1-800 phone calls apparently not working... A commercial airplane has flown into the Pentagon, Pentagon has been evacuated too. UNCONFIRMED reports of several more (possibly hi-jacked) planes still in the air. All other planes have been ordered to land. A fire has started in front of the White House (they are calling it the Mall of the White House) and the White House has been evacuated too. Capitol, treasury, White House, and State Department have been evacuated. Boston and many other major cities are evacuating all potential taget sites/buildings also... As the White House was being evacuated, a threat came in, a credible threat, and the evacuation process went even fast, at first they were evacuating in an orderly fashion. Supposedly the president was supposed to be heading back from Florida. I'm sure that's going to be detoured somewhere else. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 11 09:27:48 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <134.157cec0.28cf7964@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/2001 9:19:47 AM Central Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these > were > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash > on a > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than > that > ... > > Dick > oh yea, that's a really nice thing to say.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/a151cd4d/attachment.html From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 09:35:37 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: [mac-nt] Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146705E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Both towers down now!! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: stb [mailto:stb@scides.canberra.edu.au] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:30 AM ! To: Mac-NT Mailing List ! Subject: [mac-nt] Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... ! ! ! Absolutely incredible. ! ! any list members involved ? ! ! Jees 2nd tower just collapsed..... ! ! ! Stef ! ! ! [DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] This is a posting from the ! Mac-NT Mailing List. To unsubscribe, forward this message ! (Including these lines) to ! . List Charter and ! FAQ at: ! http://www.sunbelt-software.com/mac-nt-list_charter.htm From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Sep 11 09:32:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225717@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Pentagon too... what's next? > -----Original Message----- > From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:23 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) > Subject: OT: World Trade crash... > Importance: High > > > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Sep 11 09:34:16 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <2d.10d9d18f.28cf7ae8@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/01 10:19:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these > were > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on > a > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than > that > ... > > Dick For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas my heart and prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast there have been 4 attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, and the state dept bldg in washington. -Linc Fessenden In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 09:39:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC in New York, and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off outside the State Department bldg. What really scares me is that no matter what knee-jerk comes out of the Washington hierarchy, it will most surely be wrong. The intelligence community was entirely in the dark, AND there was a claim of responsibility form the "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" on the radio somewhere in the middle-east. That's possibly a red-herring and really doesn't mean anything. Now the entire country is grounded ... which is pretty much what the terrorists wanted ... Of course there will have to be some sort of token retribution, but against whom? If it's against the Islamic community throughout the world, it will benefit the Israelis. No matter what they do, it can't be anything but wrong. Forget the notion of our rocket-scientist intelligence community really finding out who did what. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 AM Subject: OT: World Trade crash... > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 09:46:10 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <01Sep11.105407edt.119049@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that >these were >specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a >helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than that Helipad hell...a jet crashed into the building itself. The fire is still out of control. The smoke can be seen from this building. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From RCini at congressfinancial.com Tue Sep 11 09:46:55 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DDB@MAIL10> I work in midtown Manhattan...both buildings have collapsed. There is nothing but blue sky where the Twin Towers once stood. ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:23 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Importance: High I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade buildings... one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I believe... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 09:58:00 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146705C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146705C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <01Sep11.110550edt.119047@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Part of the World Trade tower has collapsed Both towers have completely collapsed at this point. -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 09:59:53 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3B9E26E9.8B826BF6@internet1.net> How big is a 737? I didn't think an airplane would do that much damage. The Empire State building has been hit before, by accident, although, it prpbably wasn't a direct hit. I see it on TV, However. I'm stunned, really. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA David Woyciesjes wrote: > > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 10:05:31 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: world trade updates... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467060@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> A page, I'll update as I can... http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html a news page copied from cnn.com http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/wt.html --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 10:03:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <134.157cec0.28cf7964@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c13ad2$e0ac0e80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There are a number of confused reports coming in. The Pentagon crash apparently was closer than originally reported, which is more what I thought would turn out to be the case. The TV report is that the car bomb at the State Department was a false report. Apparently the Air Force is flying air cover over our nation's capital. Of course the intelligence community is busy evacuating their buildings so it can't be reached. How they're going to do their jobs is another mystery. One thing's for sure, though. No matter what the gov response is, it will be wrong. There's no "right" thing for them to do, other than clean up. Politics will demand they take retribution on some poor scapegoat. They'll decimate some small country they don't like anyway, such as Iraq or Afghanistan, then learn, a decade later that it was a band of French terrorists ... from the Green party, or some such. They'll be afraid to admit it then. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:27 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... In a message dated 9/11/2001 9:19:47 AM Central Daylight Time, edick@idcomm.com writes: Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these were specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than that ... Dick oh yea, that's a really nice thing to say.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/de29a721/attachment.html From glindsey at ssinc.com Tue Sep 11 10:06:42 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <003201c13ad3$70270380$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> A coworker here pointed out that the crash occurred exactly three months and one hour after the execution of Timothy McVeigh on June 11th at 7:00am CDT. However, that "one hour" thing sort of throws the theory off, unless the terrorists were just really bad at math. And the Pentagon crash was still close enough to collapse a few walls, from what I heard. And then there's the odd fact that a plane crashed eighty miles west of Philadelphia... that's just strange, unless it was headed for somewhere else. Reports are saying that military jets are currently authorized to shoot down any plane in U.S. airspace that doesn't immediately identify itself. GSL, apologizing for being OT but thinking this situation warrants the exception ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:00 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these were > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than that > ... > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Woyciesjes" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 AM > Subject: OT: World Trade crash... > > > > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > > buildings... > > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > > believe... > > > > --- David A Woyciesjes > > --- C & IS Support Specialist > > --- Yale University Press > > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > > --- (203) 432-0953 > > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 10:12:38 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <01Sep11.112030edt.119046@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC >in New York, >and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off >outside the State >Department bldg. The car bomb has been shown to be false. A large jet did plow into the Pentagon and they are still fighting the fires but there was no car bomb outside the State Dept. -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 10:11:40 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146705C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: Can I please use "foul" language now? This is FUCKING terrible. First of all, I hope everyone we all know is OK. It is an inevitability that each and every one of us will be affected by this in some way, either through someone we know directly or a friend of a friend... All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with it's arrogance. I fear this will plunge the world into war. And guess who will suffer the most? This is all I will have to say about this. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 11 10:12:46 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: any details on the plane crash south of PGH? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/e8ac5adb/attachment.html From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 11 10:16:21 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <61.133d3431.28cf84c5@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/2001 10:15:10 AM Central Daylight Time, fernande@internet1.net writes: > How big is a 737? I didn't think an airplane would do that much > damage. The Empire State building has been hit before, by accident, > although, it prpbably wasn't a direct hit. > > I see it on TV, However. I'm stunned, really. > > looks like it hit sideways on edge, taking out that side of the building. a B24 hit the ESB, not that much damage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/40f2c224/attachment.html From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 10:19:39 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <2d.10d9d18f.28cf7ae8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B9E2B8B.AA89B92D@internet1.net> ABC was saying that the State Dept. car bomb or whatever, isn't accurate. Seems rather chaotic now. The Pennsylvania crash hasn't been detailed yet, unfortunately. I wonder if this is foreign or more of the McViegh homeboys? Chad LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas my heart and > prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast there have been 4 > attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, and the state > dept bldg in washington. > > -Linc Fessenden > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 10:27:03 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467065@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> And Camp David, no structures hit, though. THey missed thier target.. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: LFessen106@aol.com [mailto:LFessen106@aol.com] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:34 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: World Trade crash... ! ! ! In a message dated 9/11/01 10:19:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ! edick@idcomm.com writes: ! ! > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports ! are that these ! > were ! > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently ! intentional crash ! on ! > a ! > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd ! get closer than ! > that ! > ... ! > ! > Dick ! ! For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas ! my heart and ! prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast ! there have been 4 ! attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, ! and the state ! dept bldg in washington. ! ! -Linc Fessenden ! ! In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... ! ! Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. ! ! From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 10:26:17 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9E2D19.516430FA@internet1.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC in New York, > and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off outside the State > Department bldg. ABC is aying that the State dept car bomb is false. > > What really scares me is that no matter what knee-jerk comes out of the > Washington hierarchy, it will most surely be wrong. The intelligence community > was entirely in the dark, AND there was a claim of responsibility form the > "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" on the radio somewhere in the > middle-east. That's possibly a red-herring and really doesn't mean anything. Lots of people usually claim that they did , the most recent terroist act. Thats nothing new. > > Now the entire country is grounded ... which is pretty much what the terrorists > wanted ... > > Of course there will have to be some sort of token retribution, but against > whom? Just sit tight Dick, they'll figure it out. > If it's against the Islamic community throughout the world, it will > benefit the Israelis. Wow, just watching a streat level reply of the towers collapsing. People running, lots of thick dust. Anyway, what do the Israelis have to do with it? I don't think anybody is looking at gaining something from this, besides the terroists. Chad From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 10:35:48 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: world trade updates... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467067@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Refresh this page, I add news as I get it... http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html My main sources are my local radio, 99.1 WPLR (New Haven CT, clasic rock, www.wplr.com), who is reading the AP wire and monitoring CNN, ABC, MSNBC, and other big networks... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 10:34:51 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Chris wrote: > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > >that would have if they were still running today)? > Big Ben in London? :-p Stonehenge (hard-sectored timekeeping mechanism, or data storage??) From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 10:35:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <01Sep11.105407edt.119049@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <003301c13ad7$6fb99ee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> comments inline Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:46 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > Helipad hell...a jet crashed into the building itself. The > fire is still out of control. The smoke can be seen from this > building. > The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's nothing as compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed. They're saying that over 50K people work in or immediately near those two towers. There are apparently some gas fires/explosions associated with that as well. The NY fire department has their hands full for sure. Morever, there were many fire fighters in the second tower evacuating people when it collapsed. The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if they're not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, since you're there. I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was in the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going. > From marino13 at btinternet.com Tue Sep 11 10:40:50 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (marino13@btinternet.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <7663644.1000222850181.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Yeah I agree wholeheartedly - just a tactless comment. I know everyone here in the UK will join me in sending our best wishes to everyone in the States both directly or indirectly involved. We're all absolutely stunned and sickened :( Shaun > In a message dated 9/11/2001 9:19:47 AM Central Daylight Time, > edick@idcomm.com writes: > > > > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these > > were > > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash > > on a > > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than > > that > > ... > > > > Dick > > > > oh yea, that's a really nice thing to say.... From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 10:46:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <003201c13ad3$70270380$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> Message-ID: <3B9E31D1.2FB94219@internet1.net> Greg Lindsey wrote: > And the Pentagon crash was still close enough to collapse a few walls, from > what I heard. The plane reached the inner ring/circle or whatever that is called. It's pretty bad from what ABC is saying. > > And then there's the odd fact that a plane crashed eighty miles west of > Philadelphia... that's just strange, unless it was headed for somewhere > else. Maybe if it was hijackled things didn't go very smoothly for the hijackers, maybe a passenger was in some position to do something. > > Reports are saying that military jets are currently authorized to shoot down > any plane in U.S. airspace that doesn't immediately identify itself. Makes sence. > > GSL, apologizing for being OT but thinking this situation warrants the > exception Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 10:55:35 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146706D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> The second plane was confirmed to be a 767, not a 737... Please contact the Red Cross to donate blood... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Chad Fernandez [mailto:fernande@internet1.net] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:00 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... ! ! ! How big is a 737? I didn't think an airplane would do that much ! damage. The Empire State building has been hit before, by accident, ! although, it prpbably wasn't a direct hit. ! ! I see it on TV, However. I'm stunned, really. ! ! Chad Fernandez ! Michigan, USA ! ! David Woyciesjes wrote: ! > ! > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the ! world trade ! > buildings... ! > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I ! > believe... ! > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes ! > --- C & IS Support Specialist ! > --- Yale University Press ! > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! > --- (203) 432-0953 ! > --- ICQ # - 905818 ! From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 10:56:22 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... References: Message-ID: <3B9E3426.1EA011E0@internet1.net> Sellam Ismail wrote: > All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with > it's arrogance. I disagree. Any terrorist acts are the responsibility of the terrorists. Even if someone doesn't like what the US does or is, it is still there decision to do acts of terrorism. It is not our fault for making people do acts of terrorism. > I fear this will plunge the world into war. I could see a very targeted attack against whoever the responsible parties are, like when we went into Panama or Libya. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Sep 11 10:02:47 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <61.133d3431.28cf84c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 963 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/8873ae78/attachment.bin From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 11:01:28 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9E3558.DE05B3AA@internet1.net> Peter Jennings just said something a few minutes ago, but then went to something else. Chad SUPRDAVE@aol.com wrote: > > any details on the plane crash south of PGH? From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Sep 11 10:04:48 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467065@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010911110448.011da01c@obregon.multi.net.co> That was shot down by the USAF before it reached its target. I think that the Pennsylvania one was also shot down. At 11:27 AM 9/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >And Camp David, no structures hit, though. THey missed thier target.. > >--- David A Woyciesjes >--- C & IS Support Specialist >--- Yale University Press >--- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu >--- (203) 432-0953 >--- ICQ # - 905818 -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 11:03:52 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <61.133d3431.28cf84c5@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B9E35E8.1DC9D37D@internet1.net> >Looks like it hit sideways on edge, taking out that side of the building. a >B24 hit the ESB, not that much damage. Yeah I knew the ESB was hit quite some time ago, A B24 sounds right. I imagine a B24 would be much smaller. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 11:08:04 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467070@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Of course the intelligence community is busy evacuating their buildings so it can't be reached. How they're going to do their jobs is another mystery. You do know that they have a second HQ hidden in a mountain somewhere... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/2c82acd3/attachment.html From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 11:06:12 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467065@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3B9E3674.1887CF28@internet1.net> I was under the impression that, that one was forced down, and it just happened to be near Camp David. I haven't heard anything on the news about this, though. Just here. Chad David Woyciesjes wrote: > > And Camp David, no structures hit, though. THey missed thier target.. > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > ! -----Original Message----- > ! From: LFessen106@aol.com [mailto:LFessen106@aol.com] > ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:34 AM > ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > ! Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > ! > ! > ! In a message dated 9/11/01 10:19:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > ! edick@idcomm.com writes: > ! > ! > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports > ! are that these > ! > were > ! > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently > ! intentional crash > ! on > ! > a > ! > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd > ! get closer than > ! > that > ! > ... > ! > > ! > Dick > ! > ! For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas > ! my heart and > ! prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast > ! there have been 4 > ! attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, > ! and the state > ! dept bldg in washington. > ! > ! -Linc Fessenden > ! > ! In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > ! > ! Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > ! > ! From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 11:07:24 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467065@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3B9E36BC.57DCA735@internet1.net> 2 more United flights crashed, not sure where yet Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 11:10:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E2D19.516430FA@internet1.net> Message-ID: <006401c13adc$44ddfea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The terrorists that pulled this off are clearly dead, along with the innocent passengers aboard the hijacked airplanes. It's of no benefit to them at all. The political forces behind them, however, are going to benefit. As with all politics, it's entirely corrupt. That Saudi millionaire, bin Laudin, or whatever his name is, claimed something BIG was coming, but I'd more easily believe a bunch of the McVeigh-style rednecks would do this sort of thing. Of course, the WTC has been the target of middle-eastern terrorism before ... I think it would be pretty difficult for a middle eastern organization to find personnel to pull off four concurrent hijackings in the U.S. as easily as the local rednecks could do it. What's more, the middle-eastern terrorists don't normally do things on this scale, those embassy bombings being an exception rather than the rule. This invites a level of retaliation that they (the middle-eastern groups) are unwilling to tolerate. Those redneck groups don't care if they kill a billion people. The suicidal nature of this combination of acts points to the middle-easterners, yet the pointless nature points at the rednecks. Who knows? more below ... Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:26 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > AND ... in addition to the destruction of the two towers of the WTC in New York, > > and the one wing of the Pentagon, there was a car bomb set off outside the State > > Department bldg. > > ABC is aying that the State dept car bomb is false. > It just emphasises the level of chaos, doesn't it? > > > > > What really scares me is that no matter what knee-jerk comes out of the > > Washington hierarchy, it will most surely be wrong. The intelligence community > > was entirely in the dark, AND there was a claim of responsibility form the > > "Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine" on the radio somewhere in the > > middle-east. That's possibly a red-herring and really doesn't mean anything. > > Lots of people usually claim that they did , the most recent terroist > act. Thats nothing new. > > > > > Now the entire country is grounded ... which is pretty much what the terrorists > > wanted ... > > > > Of course there will have to be some sort of token retribution, but against > > whom? > > Just sit tight Dick, they'll figure it out. > > > If it's against the Islamic community throughout the world, it will > > benefit the Israelis. > > Wow, just watching a streat level reply of the towers collapsing. > People running, lots of thick dust. > > Anyway, what do the Israelis have to do with it? I don't think anybody > is looking at gaining something from this, besides the terroists. > As I said before, there's reason to doubt the middle-easterners are behind this. It's a real reckless act like the Oklahoma City bombing, and it's targeted at "the system" rather than "the government." That just adds to the confusion. What's sad is that the government will have to take retribution on someone, even if it's the wrong someone, and most folks won't even care that it's the wrong someone. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Tue Sep 11 09:57:13 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:24 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <003201c13ad3$70270380$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010911105713.011d7780@obregon.multi.net.co> My most heartfelt condolences to all New Yorkers and Americans in general. I am hoping that all the injured recover and those who are buried can be rescued. I am holding tight for what comes next in terms of economic wreckage and political fallout globally. And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is taken targets only those that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under Taleban rule are also victims. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 11:20:23 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: [alphant] Moderator note RE: Attacks Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467073@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Dan (the moderator) is right. All of our prayers go to all those involved and hurt... Let's keep the mailing lists on topic now. I'll keep updating this page as I can. http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html Hit refresh every once in a while... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Dan Schwartz [mailto:Expresso@snip.net] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:00 PM ! To: AlphaNT Mailing List ! Subject: [alphant] Moderator note ! ! ! ! OK, folks, we know what the main details are: One World ! Trade Center tower is ! completely gone, the other is at least half gone ! ! David Woiciesjes up at Yale University Press is ! maintaining a low-bandwidth ! text site with up-to-the-minute info: ! http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html ! ! Let's use the lists for what it's for, OK? ! ! God Bless, ! Dan ! ! ! [DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] This is a posting from the ! AlphaNT Mailing List. To unsubscribe, forward this message ! (Including these lines) to: ! . List Charter and ! FAQ at: ! From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 11:21:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <01Sep11.105407edt.119049@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <003301c13ad7$6fb99ee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9E39FF.78A2B482@internet1.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it > wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely > damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's nothing as > compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed. Doesn't the pentagon hold many many people as well? > The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely > evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if they're > not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other > security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, since > you're there. I'm sure the core parts of the agencies are working very hard right now. They'll be in the field and in other lesser known offices. If another plane hit the main offices of our security agencies, with our people inside, then we would be in a lot more trouble. It's better to have them in other places. > > I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was in > the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around > from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going. I haven't seen him yet. I did just see Arafat. He looked shocked, althoughm he might be a good actor too? Don't know, just speculating. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 11 11:26:34 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <88.c2c134f.28cf953a@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/2001 11:18:39 AM Central Daylight Time, DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu writes: > > >> >> Of course the intelligence community is busy evacuating their buildings so >> it can't be reached. How they're going to do their jobs is another >> mystery. >> >> >> > > You do know that they have a second HQ hidden in a mountain somewhere... > yea, my brother said mount weather's going to get used now... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/604794e9/attachment.html From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Sep 11 11:36:41 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146706D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3B9E3D4B.47FE6598@eoni.com> How big? 767: 218-350 seats depending on configuration 737 110-237 seats depending on configuration Source: Boeing site From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 11 11:41:32 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <76.f8e84e8.28cf98bc@aol.com> In a message dated 9/11/2001 11:37:26 AM Central Daylight Time, fernande@internet1.net writes: > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it > > wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently > severely > > damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's > nothing as > > compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed. > > Doesn't the pentagon hold many many people as well? > > > The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely > > evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if > they're > > not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other > > security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, > since > > you're there. > > I'm sure the core parts of the agencies are working very hard right > now. They'll be in the field and in other lesser known offices. If > another plane hit the main offices of our security agencies, with our > people inside, then we would be in a lot more trouble. It's better to > have them in other places. > > > > > I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He > was in > > the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned > around > > from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going. > > I haven't seen him yet. I did just see Arafat. He looked shocked, > althoughm he might be a good actor too? Don't know, just speculating. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > my brother says AF1 came in andrews AFB with fighter escort and it's locked up there better than alcratraz. Im sure there's plenty going on in DC as theres lots of information that doesnt get fed to the general populace. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/3a7702c9/attachment.html From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 11:41:58 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> What do they have water tanks on top for? Is that a standard thing with sky scrapers? Is it for fire fighting, or is it just part of the running water system of the buildings? I'm from West Michigan and we don't have very many tall buildings. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Carlos Murillo wrote: > I think that the fire finished both towers. When the water tanks on top > of both towers spilled inside those superheated infernos, > the buildings collapsed. > > carlos. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 12:00:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E2D19.516430FA@internet1.net> <006401c13adc$44ddfea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9E4330.D4F63BD6@internet1.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The terrorists that pulled this off are clearly dead, along with the innocent > passengers aboard the hijacked airplanes. It's of no benefit to them at all. > The political forces behind them, however, are going to benefit. As with all > politics, it's entirely corrupt. Well, when I say "they" I mean they're cause/organization, etc. Although, they may believe that they are doing themselves good too, such as the Japanese kamikaze pilots, or some middle eastern extremists. > > That Saudi millionaire, bin Laudin, or whatever his name is, claimed something > BIG was coming, but I'd more easily believe a bunch of the McVeigh-style > rednecks would do this sort of thing. > > Of course, the WTC has been the target of middle-eastern terrorism before ... > > I think it would be pretty difficult for a middle eastern organization to find > personnel to pull off four concurrent hijackings in the U.S. as easily as the > local rednecks could do it. What's more, the middle-eastern terrorists don't > normally do things on this scale, those embassy bombings being an exception > rather than the rule. This invites a level of retaliation that they (the > middle-eastern groups) are unwilling to tolerate. Those redneck groups don't > care if they kill a billion people. > > The suicidal nature of this combination of acts points to the middle-easterners, > yet the pointless nature points at the rednecks. Who knows? It certainly is confusing. I question a bunch of Mcviegh types too, I mean, I don't think we normally get a big concentration of McViegh types..... you'd have to be really crazy, not just a follower of a crazy. I think I understand and agree with your assessment of middle eastern terrorists too. They tend not to do things this big. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au Tue Sep 11 12:05:13 2001 From: cchd at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Can I please use "foul" language now? > > This is FUCKING terrible. I doubt language can express what I feel. Watching the towers collapse has left me in tears, speechless, and a great sense of both futility and foreboding. > First of all, I hope everyone we all know is OK. It is an inevitability > that each and every one of us will be affected by this in some way, either > through someone we know directly or a friend of a friend... Can't agree more. > All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with > it's arrogance. > > I fear this will plunge the world into war. My greatest fear - I couldn't watch the TV coverage by myself so went off to my parents and drank large amounts - didn't help much. > This is all I will have to say about this. This is my first post to the list for a while. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 12:11:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <88.c2c134f.28cf953a@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c13ae4$cae45280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> When this matter first came to light, I was under the impression that the 'D.C. crash and the N.Y. crash(es) were unrelated, hence my remark that "they could have gotten closer" than they did. However, it seems that the two were not separate incidents, and that they got quite close enough in D.C. I certainly have no regrets that they didn't do more damage, as my remark might have suggested to some. There are over 50K people who work in the WTC and adjacent buildings or live there. Based on the time of day at which this event occurred, there was undoubtedly enormous loss of life. Apparently as the, up to that point, largely intact portion of the WTC began to give way, numerous people chose to jump to their deaths through the broken windows rather than being buried alive in the rubble of the collapsing structure. It's deserves a moment's contemplation to consider what was in the minds of those people as it became evident that their lives were ending. >From what I heard from the tube, there are over 12K people who work in the Pentagon, and there was considerable damage and loss of life. Information is not so forthcoming about that, however. I suspect that this event will lead to considerable change in the U.S. policy toward rogue nations and those considered to be sponsors of world terrorism. I also expect that the U.S. Gov will amend its policy toward states that shelter terrorist organizations and that harbor known terrorists, irrsepective of their cultural/religious association with those nations. It's my sincere hope that the GOV will not be too quick to choose a scapegoat or to measure its response to what it learns or thinks it learns. Even if they destroy every evidence of life from Afghanistan to Libya, it won't restore those buildings, nor will it restore the lives lost or destroyed by this event. The GOV has already released statements that they will "hunt down and punish" those responsible. I hope this doesn't foretell a bunch of senseless misdirected violence. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:26 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > In a message dated 9/11/2001 11:18:39 AM Central Daylight Time, > DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu writes: > > Of course the intelligence community is busy evacuating their buildings so > > it can't be reached. How they're going to do their jobs is another > > mystery. > You do know that they have a second HQ hidden in a mountain somewhere... yea, my brother said mount weather's going to get used now... From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 12:09:21 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010911105713.011d7780@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is taken targets only those > that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under > Taleban rule are also victims. I was hoping I wouldn't have anything more to say but I must respond to this. Don't you think it is not only extremely premature but also highly irresponsible to assume this was an attack carried out by any particular group? Remember Oklahoma City? I don't think this incident calls for ANY retaliation. I think it DOES call for America to take a moment to reflect on why any particular group would want to inflict such horror on our nation. People just don't get up one day and say "Gee, I think I'll completely raze the World Trade Center buildings...what fun that would be!" This is a reckoning. Enough is enough already! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 12:11:12 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Sridhar? Message-ID: Sridhar I believe worked in a financial capacity somewhere in Manhattan. I hope I'm wrong. Has anyone heard from him or know if he's OK? I realize it's probably impossible to get any sort of communications in or out of that part of the city right now. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 12:15:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <76.f8e84e8.28cf98bc@aol.com> Message-ID: <003801c13ae5$56193960$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> No offense intended, but can't you turn off the HTML/RTF mode in your email editor? Lotsa folks can't enjoy/fully-experience your contributions if you use RTF. (I don't know who started the RTF format, but I keep having to turn it off.) Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: SUPRDAVE@aol.com To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:41 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... In a message dated 9/11/2001 11:37:26 AM Central Daylight Time, fernande@internet1.net writes: Richard Erlacher wrote: > The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it > wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely > damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's nothing as > compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed. Doesn't the pentagon hold many many people as well? > The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely > evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if they're > not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other > security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, since > you're there. I'm sure the core parts of the agencies are working very hard right now. They'll be in the field and in other lesser known offices. If another plane hit the main offices of our security agencies, with our people inside, then we would be in a lot more trouble. It's better to have them in other places. > > I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was in > the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around > from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going. I haven't seen him yet. I did just see Arafat. He looked shocked, althoughm he might be a good actor too? Don't know, just speculating. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA my brother says AF1 came in andrews AFB with fighter escort and it's locked up there better than alcratraz. Im sure there's plenty going on in DC as theres lots of information that doesnt get fed to the general populace. From spedraja at ono.com Tue Sep 11 13:15:15 2001 From: spedraja at ono.com (SP) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <000f01c13aed$b53082c0$0301a8c0@marga> Taliban Regime ambassador on Pakistan has said that they don't have any relation with this terrorist act. He told too that Bin Laden it's not implied in the attack. Yasir Arafat, in absolute shock state, has manifested its condenation of the attack and its solidarity with the american people. Hundreds of Palestinians are celebrating the attack in the streets of the Occupied Territories in Palestina/Israel. France are in National Emergency State. Spain has reunited its basic crisis cabinet, compound by the Security Minister, the Defense Minister and the Prime Minister Cabinet Minister. One political analyst here speaks about the impossible capacity of any Medium Orient organization about organize one thing like this. I appoint, by my side, that this matter is equal to the end of the movie "The Fight Club" of David Fincher. And has one strange smell to anti-globalization, appoints another analyst. That's what we know about the matter here in Spain. All my condolences to all the victims, sincerely. Like we know well in my country, ANY terrorism is ansolutely SHIT. Regards Sergio From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 12:17:15 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <01Sep11.105407edt.119049@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <003301c13ad7$6fb99ee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E39FF.78A2B482@internet1.net> Message-ID: <003901c13ae5$9a9eba60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> As I said before, the middle-eastern political groups are not given to such acts of vastly undirected violence. They pick their targets, though their weapons aren't always as well directed as they'd like, and they normally kill themselves in the process. They're not willing to commit a truly gross act such as this because of the scale of violence it invites as retribution, though they seldom fail to claim credit for a successful attack. This truly smells of our homegrown militia types. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:21 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > The networks are issuing conflicting reports about that, but it's clear it > > wasn't a helipad on a nearby building. The Pentagon is apparently severely > > damaged and there's been considerable loss of life. Of course that's nothing as > > compared with the WTC disaster, now that both towers have collapsed. > > Doesn't the pentagon hold many many people as well? > > > The heart of Washington D.C. OTOH is apparently being (relatively) quitely > > evacuated. I don't know how the key government agencies can function if they're > > not going to work, however. They've shut down the CIA, the NSA, and other > > security-related agencies. You (Jeff) can probably provide more detail, since > > you're there. > > I'm sure the core parts of the agencies are working very hard right > now. They'll be in the field and in other lesser known offices. If > another plane hit the main offices of our security agencies, with our > people inside, then we would be in a lot more trouble. It's better to > have them in other places. > > > > > I note that Dubya is on the tube. I wonder where they set him down. He was in > > the air when this happened. Likewise, Colin Powell apparently turned around > > from his trip to Columbia, or wherever he was going. > > I haven't seen him yet. I did just see Arafat. He looked shocked, > althoughm he might be a good actor too? Don't know, just speculating. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 12:24:27 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >What do they have water tanks on top for? Is that a standard thing with >sky scrapers? Is it for fire fighting, or is it just part of the >running water system of the buildings? If one thinks back to like 1971 or so with the movie 'The Towering Inferno', it showed large water tanks at the top of the building as well. I don't know if it's a standard building-code type thing or if it's specifically used for fire fighting or not, but it's certainly not the first time I've seen mention of it. -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 12:40:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E2D19.516430FA@internet1.net> <006401c13adc$44ddfea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E4330.D4F63BD6@internet1.net> Message-ID: <003f01c13ae8$e6a3c240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Though it's hard to see how any "good" could come from an act such as this, perhaps it will inspire people to stop harboring/aiding/comforting criminals, and stop favoring the "minor" offender over the strict adherence to law. Our homegrown militants rely heavily on the distaste some folks have for law and order. This type of situation is the fruit of such an attitude. The guys in D.C. are now referring to the people responsible for this act as enemies of the nation. They're adopting rhetoric of wartime. It's the blind-eyed inattention to the routine commission of minor offenses that allows these enemies of the nation to move about freely among us. At present, the Palestinians have denied responsibility, as have the Afgahns. The Talaban have denied that bin Laudin is involved, though that's still possible. I doubt, however, that either the Palestinians or the Afghans would tolerate such an act from anyone over whom they have any influence at all, not wishing to risk incurring the wrath of an injured U.S. Middle-easterners are long familiar with the political realities of terrorism, and it's not likely that they would long hide someone to whom or to whose organization such an act could ultimately be attributed. The only ones unsophisitcated enough and violent enough to be likely to do this are those home-grown cowboys like McVeigh. Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. If we insist on giving aid and comfort to minor criminals by failing to report them each and every time they violate our laws, and if we insist on retaining our privacy, we'll have to learn to tolerate this sort of event. The choice is between our own rights and those of the "minor" criminals. People wouldn't attempt to hide among the populace if they knew that the populace would phone the authorities to report their every action. There's a fine line between complacency and complicity. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:00 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > The terrorists that pulled this off are clearly dead, along with the innocent > > passengers aboard the hijacked airplanes. It's of no benefit to them at all. > > The political forces behind them, however, are going to benefit. As with all > > politics, it's entirely corrupt. > > Well, when I say "they" I mean they're cause/organization, etc. > Although, they may believe that they are doing themselves good too, such > as the Japanese kamikaze pilots, or some middle eastern extremists. > > > > > That Saudi millionaire, bin Laudin, or whatever his name is, claimed something > > BIG was coming, but I'd more easily believe a bunch of the McVeigh-style > > rednecks would do this sort of thing. > > > > Of course, the WTC has been the target of middle-eastern terrorism before ... > > > > I think it would be pretty difficult for a middle eastern organization to find > > personnel to pull off four concurrent hijackings in the U.S. as easily as the > > local rednecks could do it. What's more, the middle-eastern terrorists don't > > normally do things on this scale, those embassy bombings being an exception > > rather than the rule. This invites a level of retaliation that they (the > > middle-eastern groups) are unwilling to tolerate. Those redneck groups don't > > care if they kill a billion people. > > > > The suicidal nature of this combination of acts points to the middle-easterners, > > yet the pointless nature points at the rednecks. Who knows? > > It certainly is confusing. I question a bunch of Mcviegh types too, I > mean, I don't think we normally get a big concentration of McViegh > types..... you'd have to be really crazy, not just a follower of a > crazy. > > I think I understand and agree with your assessment of middle eastern > terrorists too. They tend not to do things this big. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Sep 11 12:41:34 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Word from lower Manhattan (was: RE: Sridhar?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sellam wrote: > I realize it's probably impossible to get any sort of communications in or > out of that part of the city right now. I have staff at 40 Broad, two doors down from the NYSE and about four blocks from Liberty Plaza/World trade. One of them just checked in. As he put it, when the second aircraft hit it started raining down concrete on Broad Street. He took everyone down the stairs to the lobby, looked outside and decided that they had to get the hell out of dodge. Down broad to the river, then up the side of FDR heading uptown until they were clear of the dust. It appears I lost a staff member today; he was visiting Cantor on the 103rd floor of the WTC. Just got married. No word yet from friends who work across the street from the WTC. I gotta go fire up the disaster recovery plans, after which I'm planning on re-evaluating some of my priorities in life. Chris. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 12:49:46 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146707C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I do believe it is for the fire sprinkler system. But I'm sure someone else knows better... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Chad Fernandez [mailto:fernande@internet1.net] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:42 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... ! ! ! What do they have water tanks on top for? Is that a standard ! thing with ! sky scrapers? Is it for fire fighting, or is it just part of the ! running water system of the buildings? ! ! I'm from West Michigan and we don't have very many tall buildings. ! ! Chad Fernandez ! Michigan, USA ! ! Carlos Murillo wrote: ! ! > I think that the fire finished both towers. When the water ! tanks on top ! > of both towers spilled inside those superheated infernos, ! > the buildings collapsed. ! > ! > carlos. ! From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Sep 11 12:46:49 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: Chad Fernandez wrote: > What do they have water tanks on top for? In order to feed water to the top of a tall building on demand would require huge-to-massive pumps. Instead smaller, continuous flow pumps move a small amount of water upwards to large tanks that then gravity feed downwards. In particularly tall buildings intermediate tanks and pumps are used, such that the load on a given set of pumps (and the pressure that the plumbing must accommodate) are tractable. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 11 12:54:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: from "Chad Fernandez" at Sep 11, 2001 12:03:52 PM Message-ID: <200109111754.f8BHslk28155@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Looks like it hit sideways on edge, taking out that side of the building. a > >B24 hit the ESB, not that much damage. > > Yeah I knew the ESB was hit quite some time ago, A B24 sounds right. I > imagine a B24 would be much smaller. The plane that hit the Empire State Building was a B-25, which is smaller than a B-24. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 11 12:58:00 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <20010910235156.J18242@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Sep 10, 2001 11:51:56 PM Message-ID: <200109111758.f8BHw0R28174@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems whose > > timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time (including any > > that would have if they were still running today)? > > Speaking of which, does anybody have URL/info on the rumor I keep hearing > of an OpenVMS system with a TEN YEAR uptime back in the 80s? Check DejaNews/GoogleGroups. There is/was a VMS system with an uptime of about eighteen years belonging to a railroad in Ireland. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From optimus at canit.se Tue Sep 11 12:58:41 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... When I first saw the news, I thought it was some kind of joke, then I was baffled, then I thought that this would be a good day to delete all classiccmp messages. This is absolutely OT. From mranalog at home.com Tue Sep 11 12:56:46 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk Message-ID: <3B9E505E.9ED4A5F6@home.com> "Bob Stek" said: > If it provides motivation for one of you hardware types with nothing > better to do, I'd lend my support to requesting an add-in card which > could handle the 10 and 16 hole 5.25" disks and the 32 hole 8 inchers as > well (I have a lot of ProcTech Helios disks). I'm confused (which happens often). Isn't this one of the reasons we keep these old machines running. If I need to read a 10 sector N* disk, I setup a Horizon with a laptop as the terminal. And then using the N* monitor I load a group of blocks from the disk into memory and then dump that memory to the terminal with logging turned on. Dumping 32K at a time, it takes several dumps before I have the whole disk, but it's a whole lot easier then building a special controller. Just one lazy man's solution. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 13:03:50 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Sridhar? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146707E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] ! ! Sridhar I believe worked in a financial capacity somewhere in ! Manhattan. ! I hope I'm wrong. Has anyone heard from him or know if he's OK? ! ! I realize it's probably impossible to get any sort of ! communications in or ! out of that part of the city right now. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Sep 11 13:05:44 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E26E9.8B826BF6@internet1.net>; from fernande@internet1.net on Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 10:59:53AM -0400 References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3B9E26E9.8B826BF6@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010911130544.A1301513@uiuc.edu> BIG. Really big. And it's not just the size that's important...the plane weighs a lot. Imagine the amount of kinetic energy imparted to the building when those planes hit at 200+ MPH...the force went all the way through each tower, as we've all horrifingly seen on the news. What's astonishing is not that they did as much damage as they did, but that the buildings didn't collapse immediately upon being hit. My thoughts and sympathies go out to everyone involved in this tragedy...this is truly an astonishingly black day. Chad Fernandez said: > How big is a 737? I didn't think an airplane would do that much > damage. The Empire State building has been hit before, by accident, > although, it prpbably wasn't a direct hit. > > I see it on TV, However. I'm stunned, really. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > David Woyciesjes wrote: > > > > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > > buildings... > > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > > believe... > > > > --- David A Woyciesjes > > --- C & IS Support Specialist > > --- Yale University Press > > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > > --- (203) 432-0953 > > --- ICQ # - 905818 - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From Diff at Mac.com Tue Sep 11 13:09:17 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <88.c2c134f.28cf953a@aol.com> <002d01c13ae4$cae45280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002501c13aec$e0acfa10$0501000a@laboffice> Yuck, I am already seeing mild racism from people that I run into on the street, aimed towards people of middle eastern descent (hey look! theres a terrorist, etc.), this is a tradgedy, and I am not looking forward to how this country reacts. Zach From Diff at Mac.com Tue Sep 11 13:10:33 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Sridhar? References: Message-ID: <003f01c13aed$0ec20120$0501000a@laboffice> I think he is in Florida with Dave Mcguire and Brian Hechinger rescuing some machines. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Sridhar? > > Sridhar I believe worked in a financial capacity somewhere in Manhattan. > I hope I'm wrong. Has anyone heard from him or know if he's OK? > > I realize it's probably impossible to get any sort of communications in or > out of that part of the city right now. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 11 13:12:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Sridhar? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I worked for some years for 3DG in the World Trade Center. I left about a year ago to join IBM. I have lost friends and colleagues there that I know, love, and respect. I lost my former secretary. Luckily the office hadn't started up operations for the day yet, so the majority of the staff wasn't there. My brother was in the World Trade Center a mere two hours before the attack. He was back in midtown at that time. He is fine. My cousin works at 112 Wall St., and he's also fine. I count my blessings. I pray for the souls of my absent friends. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Sridhar I believe worked in a financial capacity somewhere in Manhattan. > I hope I'm wrong. Has anyone heard from him or know if he's OK? > > I realize it's probably impossible to get any sort of communications in or > out of that part of the city right now. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 13:13:03 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: [alphant] Moderator note RE: Attacks In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467073@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: I just returned from Ft. Knox, my name is on the list for voluntary recall from retired reserve - my old job was cruise missiles so I'm sure they'll have a need for someone to fill in an extra spot. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of David Woyciesjes -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 11:20 AM -> To: 'AlphaNT Mailing List'; Mac-NT Mail List (E-mail); -> classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail); Eclug@Clintonpublic. Org (E-mail) -> Subject: RE: [alphant] Moderator note RE: Attacks -> -> -> Dan (the moderator) is right. All of our prayers go to all those involved -> and hurt... -> -> Let's keep the mailing lists on topic now. -> -> I'll keep updating this page as I can. -> http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html -> Hit refresh every once in a while... -> -> --- David A Woyciesjes -> --- C & IS Support Specialist -> --- Yale University Press -> --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu -> --- (203) 432-0953 -> --- ICQ # - 905818 -> -> -> ! -----Original Message----- -> ! From: Dan Schwartz [mailto:Expresso@snip.net] -> ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:00 PM -> ! To: AlphaNT Mailing List -> ! Subject: [alphant] Moderator note -> ! -> ! -> ! -> ! OK, folks, we know what the main details are: One World -> ! Trade Center tower is -> ! completely gone, the other is at least half gone -> ! -> ! David Woiciesjes up at Yale University Press is -> ! maintaining a low-bandwidth -> ! text site with up-to-the-minute info: -> ! http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html -> ! -> ! Let's use the lists for what it's for, OK? -> ! -> ! God Bless, -> ! Dan -> ! -> ! -> ! [DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] This is a posting from the -> ! AlphaNT Mailing List. To unsubscribe, forward this message -> ! (Including these lines) to: -> ! . List Charter and -> ! FAQ at: -> ! -> From jrasite at eoni.com Tue Sep 11 13:15:55 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash..."How big?" References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146706D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3B9E3D4B.47FE6598@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3B9E548A.EB80B8BC@eoni.com> How big con't: From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 13:13:57 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> Wow, I haven't seen that movie forever. I don't recall any water tanks. was that movie based, even loosely, on anything real? Chad Fernandez Michgan, USA Jeff Hellige wrote: > If one thinks back to like 1971 or so with the movie 'The > Towering Inferno', it showed large water tanks at the top of the > building as well. I don't know if it's a standard building-code type > thing or if it's specifically used for fire fighting or not, but it's > certainly not the first time I've seen mention of it. > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From red at bears.org Tue Sep 11 13:19:31 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010911130544.A1301513@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > What's astonishing is not that they did as much damage as they did, > but that the buildings didn't collapse immediately upon being hit. I heard that the WTC was designed to withstand the impact of a 707 collision? ok r. From cmurillo at multi.net.co Tue Sep 11 03:18:37 2001 From: cmurillo at multi.net.co (cmurillo@multi.net.co) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B8353C4000012A3@obregon.multi.net.co> >On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is taken targets only those >> that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under >> Taleban rule are also victims. > >Don't you think it is not only extremely premature but also highly >irresponsible to assume this was an attack carried out by any particular >group? > >Remember Oklahoma City? I think you might be right. I jumped to conclusions. It is just that the organization of this clearly cost millions of dollars, and there aren't those many terrorist organizations around with such deep pockets. >I don't think this incident calls for ANY retaliation. I think it DOES >call for America to take a moment to reflect on why any particular group >would want to inflict such horror on our nation. People just don't get >up >one day and say "Gee, I think I'll completely raze the World Trade Center >buildings...what fun that would be!" The way I see it, it just shows that "security" and modern life as we know it are incompatible. We can't have both, especially not through military/big brother solutions. A whole different approach is required to deal with conflicts globally, one in which none of the parties is bitter enough to try to get revenge. Remember the WWI armistice and the inhumane conditions it imposed on the losing side, thus creating the conditions for WWII. carlos. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Tue Sep 11 13:23:28 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: Sridhar? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467081@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This is from Sridhar... ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Absurdly Obtuse [mailto:vance@ikickass.org] ! Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:17 PM ! To: David Woyciesjes ! Cc: NetBSD/Vax Mail List (E-mail); NetBSD/Sparc Mail List (E-mail) ! Subject: RE: Sridhar? ! ! ! ! I worked for some years for 3DG in the World Trade Center. I ! left about a ! year ago to join IBM. I have lost friends and colleagues ! there, that I ! know, love, and respect. I lost my former secretary. ! Luckily the office ! hadn't started up operations for the day yet, so the majority ! of the staff ! wasn't there. My brother was in the World Trade Center a ! mere two hours ! before the attack. He was back in midtown at that time. He ! is fine. My ! cousin works at 112 Wall St., and he's also fine. I count my ! blessings. ! I pray for the souls of my absent friends. ! ! Peace... Sridhar ! ! On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: ! ! > ! -----Original Message----- ! > ! From: Sellam Ismail [mailto:foo@siconic.com] ! > ! ! > ! Sridhar I believe worked in a financial capacity somewhere in ! > ! Manhattan. ! > ! I hope I'm wrong. Has anyone heard from him or know if he's OK? ! > ! ! > ! I realize it's probably impossible to get any sort of ! > ! communications in or ! > ! out of that part of the city right now. ! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 11 13:20:10 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <76.f8e84e8.28cf98bc@aol.com> <003801c13ae5$56193960$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9E55DA.A8FD06DA@internet1.net> Yes, please. It looks nice, but makes it hard to reply too, as well. When I hit Reply, it won't quote the HTML a lot of the times. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > > No offense intended, but can't you turn off the HTML/RTF mode in your email > editor? Lotsa folks can't enjoy/fully-experience your contributions if you use > RTF. (I don't know who started the RTF format, but I keep having to turn it > off.) > > Dick From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 11 13:37:48 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... > Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed. His wife was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. Those fucking ragheads don't know how lucky they are that I can't launch nuclear missles. I'd have fired them all. Without remorse and without regret. Fucking cowards. g. From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 13:33:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <003f01c13ae8$e6a3c240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From allain at panix.com Tue Sep 11 13:39:13 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <000d01c13acf$8868dee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E2D19.516430FA@internet1.net> <006401c13adc$44ddfea0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E4330.D4F63BD6@internet1.net> Message-ID: <00a101c13af1$0e8f82a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> I have been off list for a while, making calls etc., due to the early notice about this. (Thanks David W.) Sure it's off topic but it does touch the lives of all Americans. I'm just 40 miles or so from the incident. FYI I use broadcast (antenna) to get my TV. The entire VHF spectrum, except one, was out. NBC, Fox, ABC, UPN, WB, PBS... all out. Only CBS was apparently off the WTC tower. Cellphones all out too. It's reported that towers had a capacity of 50,000 workers and 200,000 daily visitors. I'm praying for the final numbers to go "improbably" low. I heard the president say "God Bless" a while ago, I'm thankful for that. I hope we (The USA and World) can all keep a level head through this. While my fear is that religious fundamentalism has been used to seperate warfare from nationalism (making a formal declaration of war difficult), my hope is all religious people everywhere love peace, or will learn to want peace, and we can all get there together. A hope is that the World will unite against terrorism with us. An example like the Nurenburg trials comes to mind. Strong justice carefully considered, then delivered. John A. in NY From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Sep 11 13:39:13 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> References: <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911193720.023e0840@192.168.1.2> At 06:24 pm 11/09/2001, you wrote: >>What do they have water tanks on top for? Is that a standard thing with >>sky scrapers? Is it for fire fighting, or is it just part of the >>running water system of the buildings? > > If one thinks back to like 1971 or so with the movie 'The > Towering Inferno', it showed large water tanks at the top of the building > as well. I don't know if it's a standard building-code type thing or if > it's specifically used for fire fighting or not, but it's certainly not > the first time I've seen mention of it. Speculation: It's probably for both firefighting (sprinkler systems) and normal water supply to taps, toilets, etc. It would make sense, since once the water is pumped up there, normal gravity plumbing would be sufficient to supply water to the building. -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk From jimdavis at gorge.net Tue Sep 11 13:43:31 2001 From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146706D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3B9E3D4B.47FE6598@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3B9E5B53.44B4B84F@gorge.net> I read 99 and 124 for the stretch version of the 737, Boeing site http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737-100/background.html Jim Arnott wrote: > > How big? > > 767: 218-350 seats depending on configuration > 737 110-237 seats depending on configuration > > Source: Boeing site From allain at panix.com Tue Sep 11 13:45:18 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <88.c2c134f.28cf953a@aol.com> <002d01c13ae4$cae45280$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <00c501c13af1$e81b09e0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >When this matter first came to light, I was under the impression that the 'D.C. >crash and the N.Y. crash(es) were unrelated, hence my remark that "they could >have gotten closer" than they did. However, it seems that the two were not >separate ... Richard, you gotta learn when to talk and when to shaddap. John A. From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 13:50:00 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <002501c13aec$e0acfa10$0501000a@laboffice> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Zach Malone wrote: > I am already seeing mild racism from people that I run into on the > street, aimed towards people of middle eastern descent (hey look! > theres a terrorist, etc.), this is a tradgedy, and I am not looking > forward to how this country reacts. Please do your part to explain to people who would jump to such conclusions that nobody knows for sure now and probably not in the near future who is responsible. Then remind them of Oklahoma City. Millions of people of Middle Eastern decent who are Moslems, Christians, etc., live in the U.S. and are U.S. citizens, and consider this country theirs. Do your part to subvert ignorance. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From curt at atari-history.com Tue Sep 11 13:52:45 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467057@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <001101c13af2$f1a00fa0$c2609040@syzygy2> Actually one was a 757-200, the other was a 767. Only Channel 2 is working here in NYC right now, phones are partially working, cell service is barely working, bridges, tunnels and ferries are closed. Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed, it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like that, seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff. Things are bad, really bad. It just doesn't seem real. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:22 AM Subject: OT: World Trade crash... > I take it you all heard about the two 737s (?) hitting the world trade > buildings... > one was possibly a hijacked airliner... each hit a seperate tower, I > believe... > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 13:54:42 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:25 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Wow, I haven't seen that movie forever. I don't recall any water > tanks. was that movie based, even loosely, on anything real? You saw the WTC collapse on TV, yes? I don't know if we saw the WTC being collapsed, but at the end of Fight Club, we see several New York city skyscrapers imploding due to terrorist acts, not as dramatically, but they go down. It's the very end of the movie, very surreal. Well, I used to consider it surreal :( For the record, I do highly recommend the movie. It is quite brilliant. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 14:04:42 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <01Sep11.151233edt.119048@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Wow, I haven't seen that movie forever. I don't recall any water >tanks. was that movie based, even loosely, on anything real? I don't know how much basis in reality the problems in that movie had, but I do know this: 1) I've seen many more referrals to large water tanks built into skyscrapers 2) it must be a nightmare to try and fight any kind of large fire in those types of buildings As for the water tanks in the movie, if I remember correctly they really didn't come into the story until towards the end and I believe that Steve McQueen does end up rupturing them so that the water spills down the building into the fire. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 14:07:20 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Sep11.151512edt.119051@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed. His wife >was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected >of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. >Fucking cowards. Man, I hope that the people responsible are ready to receive what they've unleashed.....it's going to get ugly... Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 11 14:16:00 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <002501c13aec$e0acfa10$0501000a@laboffice> Message-ID: > Yuck, > I am already seeing mild racism from people that I run into on the > street, aimed towards people of middle eastern descent (hey look! theres a > terrorist, etc.), this is a tradgedy, and I am not looking forward to how > this country reacts. > Zach If we go to a _real_ war footing, don't be surprised if internment camps make a comeback. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 11 14:17:33 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010911130544.A1301513@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: > BIG. Really big. And it's not just the size that's important...the plane > weighs a lot. Imagine the amount of kinetic energy imparted to the building > when those planes hit at 200+ MPH...the force went all the way through each > tower, as we've all horrifingly seen on the news. What's astonishing is not > that they did as much damage as they did, but that the buildings didn't > collapse immediately upon being hit. > If memory serves me, a 737 weighs in at about 200,000lbs empty, add maybe another 150,000 for people, fuel, cargo and baggage. g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 11 14:19:07 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: [alphant] Moderator note RE: Attacks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > I just returned from Ft. Knox, my name is on the list for voluntary recall > from retired reserve - my old job was cruise missiles so I'm sure they'll > have a need for someone to fill in an extra spot. > Russ, good luck. If you fire one, write my name on it. g. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Sep 11 14:17:01 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722571A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Yuck, > I am already seeing mild racism from people that I run into on the > street, aimed towards people of middle eastern descent (hey look! theres a > terrorist, etc.), this is a tradgedy, and I am not looking forward to how > this country reacts. I encountered a woman with her head covered, as the Muslim women from the Balkans wear... I smiled and nodded my head, an attempt at demonstrating that at least some Americans retain their civility during such trying times as these... -dq From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 14:19:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <002f01c13af6$b7606c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, it's a delicate balance that has to be struck, and we haven't had much luck with that of late. Nevertheless, something's got to be done, not right away, but over time, to update our attitudes and priorities to the current set of circumstances. You don't have to give up any essential liberty, but you do have to insist on your freedom from the transgressions of others. It's our collective unwillingness to insist on our own rights that allows the terrorists and criminals to move in our midst with impunity. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From jimdavis at gorge.net Tue Sep 11 14:23:40 2001 From: jimdavis at gorge.net (Jim) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash..."How big?" References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146706D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3B9E3D4B.47FE6598@eoni.com> <3B9E548A.EB80B8BC@eoni.com> Message-ID: <3B9E64BC.8ACB154D@gorge.net> oops, missed that. Jim Arnott wrote: > > How big con't: > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Sep 11 14:42:58 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <001101c13af2$f1a00fa0$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: > Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed, > it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have > compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of > the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like that, > seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff. > Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that. g. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 14:48:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <001501c13afa$b059e180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> All the political correctness that's developed over the past half century has let this country to a footing on which it's profitable (monetarily) to be separate from rather than integrated into the society. Consequently, it's easy to put people in categories. That doesn't mean that ALL middle easterners are terrorists, that all Germans are anti-semitic, or that all Japanese are fascists. Putting them into internment camps might make a great deal more sense today than it did back 60 years ago, since they've maintained a separate cultural identity and maintained ties to other nations and national interests. If we're going to do that, however, we need to do it with ALL groups that struggle to maintain separate cultural identity, language, etc. That hardly seems productive. That would put over 25% of our population effectively on welfare. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > Yuck, > > I am already seeing mild racism from people that I run into on the > > street, aimed towards people of middle eastern descent (hey look! theres a > > terrorist, etc.), this is a tradgedy, and I am not looking forward to how > > this country reacts. > > Zach > > If we go to a _real_ war footing, don't be surprised if internment camps > make a comeback. > > g. > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Sep 11 14:55:54 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <002f01c13af6$b7606c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <007901c13afb$c479bf40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> To all american folk at the list, This Terror Tuesday has created unimagionable grief! We feel deeply for the victims and their relatives and wish them strenght and courage in these barren times But also hope desperately that reason will prevail. We are disgusted by the way these cowardly attacks were executed and want to express that the people of the Netherlands are stunned in disbelief! Be strong and wise! --Sipke & Xandra-- ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- From sieler at allegro.com Tue Sep 11 14:50:45 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <003f01c13ae8$e6a3c240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9E08A5.2573.24B3AB20@localhost> Re: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. Sellam quoted: > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin Absolutely! It's *way* to early to jump to the conclusion that giving up privacy could in any way solve problems and be better for us in the long run. Thanks, Sellam! Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Sep 11 15:04:35 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <008301c13afd$0735fc80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> There will be investigations in the speed that these buildings came down. Like in Oklahoma there may have been construction errors. It also looks like a Towerbuilding that came down in the UK back in the sixties. It was supported only by the walls of the structure and a gas explosion took away a few walls. Subsequently part of the building came down because of the weight of the collapsing concrete above the explosion. many people lost their lives and building regulations in the UK were tightened later on. What happened with the WT-buildings-crash seems to have have gone in a similar way, only on a grander scale. Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Buckle To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:42 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed, > > it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have > > compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of > > the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like that, > > seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff. > > > Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that. > > g. > From foxvideo at wincom.net Tue Sep 11 15:14:45 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DDB@MAIL10> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911160625.00a5c610@mail.wincom.net> At 10:46 AM 11/09/2001 -0400, you wrote: >I work in midtown Manhattan...both buildings have collapsed. There is >nothing but blue sky where the Twin Towers once stood. > >========================== >Richard A. Cini, Jr. >Congress Financial Corporation >1133 Avenue of the Americas >30th Floor >New York, NY 10036 >(212) 545-4402 >(212) 840-6259 (facsimile) > On July 28, 1945, Colonel Bill Smith, in a dense fog, flew a B-25 > into the Empire State Building. The damage was extensive but repairable. > Of course the impact of a B-25 wouldn't compare with that of a 767 with a > full load of fuel. I wonder how badly the television engineering community of New York was hit, there were a lot of stations located in that tower. > Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 15:32:17 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: > Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed. His wife > was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected > of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. "even suspected" seems a bit rash > Those fucking ragheads what makes you think that they did it? We all share your rage, but hold down the personal prejudices until you have SOME justification. > don't know how lucky they are that I can't launch nuclear missles. I'd > have fired them all. Without remorse and without regret. and then you would have none left to use when you find out who REALLY did it! Blaming middle-easterners, or "ragheads" as you put it, turned out not to be the answer in Oklahoma; wait to retaliate until you know who to retaliate against. > Fucking cowards. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 11 15:34:48 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin Thank you, Sellam Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From jss at subatomix.com Tue Sep 11 15:50:59 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E55DA.A8FD06DA@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Here in the OKC metro, much of the area around the capitol and the government buildings near it has been evacuated and closed to the public, "just in case". I don't know if it's a lack of supply or an excess of demand, but most of the gas stations here have run out of gas to dispense. The few remaining places have jacked their prices up over $4.00/gal. Prices here have been hovering around $1.50/gal, which is already expensive by our local standards. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 15:51:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I worked the MGM Grand fire way back when from Nellis AFB and saw lots of burned and dead bodies and that irritated me a little that it could happen but this total act on so many people of different walks of life, different ages, different nationalites, etc jusy pissed me off. As someone else noted I doubt this is a small group of idiots like McVay in OkC. I have the impression that the 4th plane in PA is one that something unplanned went wrong on and it didn't hit it's intended target. We though the Kamikazes were bad in WWII but they went after other military targets that were engaged in combat, not totally innocent people without a clue. Should they decide to activate me back to active duty I will gladly go until I'm no longer needed. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Huw Davies -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:05 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... -> -> -> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: -> -> > -> > Can I please use "foul" language now? -> > -> > This is FUCKING terrible. -> -> I doubt language can express what I feel. Watching the towers -> collapse has -> left me in tears, speechless, and a great sense of both futility and -> foreboding. -> -> > First of all, I hope everyone we all know is OK. It is an -> inevitability -> > that each and every one of us will be affected by this in some -> way, either -> > through someone we know directly or a friend of a friend... -> -> Can't agree more. -> -> > All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with -> > it's arrogance. -> > -> > I fear this will plunge the world into war. -> -> My greatest fear - I couldn't watch the TV coverage by myself so went off -> to my parents and drank large amounts - didn't help much. -> -> > This is all I will have to say about this. -> -> This is my first post to the list for a while. -> -> Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au -> | "If God had wanted soccer played in the -> | air, the sky would be painted green" -> -> -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 16:00:19 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: <3B9E3426.1EA011E0@internet1.net> Message-ID: I actually would say that Uncle (horndog) Billie and his sidekick Algore screwed up our defense system so badly that much of the systems we used to have that could have possibly detected this (if it could have been at all) and the loyalty to the US military weere gone and today, along with the swift and intelligent actions of our new CIC, will serve to bring the military back to some sense of loyalty and intelligence. Much of the reason I opted for nearly a year early retirement was the state of the military and our CIC at the time (95). -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:56 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... -> -> -> Sellam Ismail wrote: -> > All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with -> > it's arrogance. -> -> I disagree. Any terrorist acts are the responsibility of the -> terrorists. Even if someone doesn't like what the US does or is, it is -> still there decision to do acts of terrorism. It is not our fault for -> making people do acts of terrorism. -> -> > I fear this will plunge the world into war. -> -> I could see a very targeted attack against whoever the responsible -> parties are, like when we went into Panama or Libya. -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 16:00:21 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <01Sep11.151512edt.119051@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: Yup it is...someone has to deal with the US, it's allies, and those soon to become allies by virtue of what has happened and that they don't want it to have to them next. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeff Hellige -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:07 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> >Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed. -> His wife -> >was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected -> >of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. -> -> >Fucking cowards. -> -> Man, I hope that the people responsible are ready to receive -> what they've unleashed.....it's going to get ugly... -> -> Jeff -> -- -> Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File -> http://www.cchaven.com -> http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 -> From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 14:00:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <20010910184739.F31586-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> from "Jeffrey S. Sharp" at Sep 10, 1 07:27:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 982 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/3ca4728a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 14:12:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: Vector 3/Teledisk In-Reply-To: <003601c13a72$9bb074c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 10, 1 09:34:05 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2195 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/c17e665d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 14:19:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <01c301c13a82$33235e80$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> from "Geoff Roberts" at Sep 11, 1 02:42:38 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 579 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/4fa8915c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 13:56:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? In-Reply-To: from "John Rollins" at Sep 10, 1 02:30:58 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 599 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/7c3c3972/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 14:02:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 In-Reply-To: <939.654T2600T1426413optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Sep 11, 1 02:22:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 168 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/55785ef6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:40:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <001101c13aca$112dbee0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 11, 1 08:00:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/6110ab3b/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 14:16:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <00e601c13a7f$b8d66340$1b28b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> from "Wayne M. Smith" at Sep 10, 1 10:07:34 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 786 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/bed0e647/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 11 15:46:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:26 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Sep 11, 1 08:11:40 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/1a9fff7d/attachment.ksh From pricomu at compuserve.de Tue Sep 11 16:40:59 2001 From: pricomu at compuserve.de (PRICOMU) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: 3 (!) building next to WTC collapsed seconds ago - (was live on German TV) Message-ID: <00c101c13b0a$95f11100$e9396781@computer> To all of you over there: I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling with everyone injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As my English is not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are missings for those feelings... Thomas (from Germany) From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Tue Sep 11 17:06:06 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: References: <3B9E3426.1EA011E0@internet1.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010911180451.00aef6e0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 04:00 PM 9/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >I actually would say that Uncle (horndog) Billie and his sidekick Algore I would sure prefer to have him in charge at this time and I'm sure so would the majority of the American public. From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 17:10:48 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: And you have a major AF base there too besides other high profile things so I'm sure it's tense there just 6 yrs after the federal bldg disaster. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:51 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: World Trade crash... -> -> -> Here in the OKC metro, much of the area around the capitol and the -> government buildings near it has been evacuated and closed to the public, -> "just in case". -> -> I don't know if it's a lack of supply or an excess of demand, but most of -> the gas stations here have run out of gas to dispense. The few remaining -> places have jacked their prices up over $4.00/gal. Prices here have been -> hovering around $1.50/gal, which is already expensive by our local -> standards. -> -> -- -> Jeffrey S. Sharp -> jss@subatomix.com -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 17:10:46 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the anti-group attitude until it's determined who actually did it. Although it looks like a middle eastern thing with reason for justification there's still the possibility that some post-communist group or other group that either follows the same ideals as those we feel it is have done this, including a possibility of some inside group. Also once it's determined we have to keep from including people born in the US of the same background from being persecuted, like the German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that group were done 60 yrs ago. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin -> (XenoSoft) -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:32 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Gene Buckle wrote: -> > Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower -> collapsed. His wife -> > was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even -> suspected -> > of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. -> "even suspected" seems a bit rash -> -> > Those fucking ragheads -> what makes you think that they did it? -> We all share your rage, but hold down the personal prejudices until you -> have SOME justification. -> -> > don't know how lucky they are that I can't launch nuclear missles. I'd -> > have fired them all. Without remorse and without regret. -> -> and then you would have none left to use when you find out who REALLY did -> it! -> -> Blaming middle-easterners, or "ragheads" as you put it, turned out not to -> be the answer in Oklahoma; wait to retaliate until you know who to -> retaliate against. -> -> > Fucking cowards. -> -> -> -> -- -> Grumpy Ol' Fred -> -> From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 11 17:17:45 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01Sep11.184057edt.119713@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> > > The gates in my computer are AND, OR, and NOT, not Bill. >> --Tony Duell > >Does this mean one of my old .sigs has ended up in an archive somewhere, >or what? Ah Tony...such a good quote to end up in an archive though! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ncherry at home.com Tue Sep 11 17:40:26 2001 From: ncherry at home.com (Neil Cherry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: 3 (!) building next to WTC collapsed seconds ago - (was live on German TV) References: <00c101c13b0a$95f11100$e9396781@computer> Message-ID: <3B9E92DA.CC5C48B8@home.com> PRICOMU wrote: > > To all of you over there: > I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the > first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling with everyone > injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As my English is > not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are missings for those > feelings... > > Thomas > (from Germany) Thank you (from NJ just south of NY) -- Linux Home Automation Neil Cherry ncherry@home.net http://members.home.net/ncherry (Text only) http://linuxha.sourceforge.net/ (SourceForge) http://hcs.sourceforge.net/ (HCS II) From mldrew at drewtech.com Tue Sep 11 17:49:59 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Mike Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9E9517.DDA5DBD5@drewtech.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > > Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed, > > it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have > > compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of > > the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like that, > > seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff. > > > Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that. > When steel gets hot it loses its strength much faster than you would think. The effect of the large fire was identical to a demolition crew taking out all of the columns. Once the building started to move it was all over. The second tower hit collapsed first due to the additional weight of the structure above. The second tower to be hit was hit lower and also, I fear, trapped many more people above the fire making the death toll much higher. Nightmare.... Can I wake up now??? Mike From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 11 17:51:07 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes, this time the language is overwhelmingly appropriate. On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Can I please use "foul" language now? > > This is FUCKING terrible. > > First of all, I hope everyone we all know is OK. It is an inevitability > that each and every one of us will be affected by this in some way, either > through someone we know directly or a friend of a friend... > > All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with > it's arrogance. > > I fear this will plunge the world into war. > > And guess who will suffer the most? > > This is all I will have to say about this. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From terryc at woa.com.au Tue Sep 11 17:48:56 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3B9E94D8.7305143D@woa.com.au> Chad Fernandez wrote: > > What do they have water tanks on top for? Is that a standard thing with > sky scrapers? Is it for fire fighting, or is it just part of the > running water system of the buildings? Fire fighting system in case the water main is knocked out or weak pressure. I would imagine that the WTC and other tall buildings would have to pump water anyway. Mains pressure is only as high as the local water tower. -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au Wombat Outdoor Adventures "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From mldrew at drewtech.com Tue Sep 11 17:59:44 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Mike Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9E9760.150FAF7E@drewtech.com> > > -> >Yes. A friend of mine watched while the south tower collapsed. > -> His wife > -> >was on the 14th floor. If it was up to me, every country even suspected > -> >of harboring terrorists would be a glowing cinder. > -> > -> >Fucking cowards. > -> > -> Man, I hope that the people responsible are ready to receive > -> what they've unleashed.....it's going to get ugly... > -> I hope that we have the will to do something more than a long drawn out investigation leading to the arrest of a handful of people. This has the middle east written all over it... We need to find out who is most likely resonsible and then get have the President ask the Congress to declare war! Let those that claim to be innocent sue for peace! I hope that twe nuke then back to the stone age.... From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 11 18:11:59 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E9517.DDA5DBD5@drewtech.com> References: <3B9E9517.DDA5DBD5@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <1000249924.13092.6.camel@DESK-2> On Tue, 2001-09-11 at 18:49, Mike Drew wrote: > > > Gene Buckle wrote: > > > > Something else which isn't sitting right is when the first tower collapsed, > > > it looked more like an implosion... the fire and explosion should'nt have > > > compromised the superstructure enough to collapse, and even the weight of > > > the above floors shouldn't have caused a "house of cards" effect like that, > > > seems more like an additional explosion may have been setoff. > > > > > Curt, 10,000lbs of jet fuel would've caused something like that. > > I agree that the leveling of the first building was odd. I'm not an engineer, but the destruction from the crash *appeared* to be isolated to the upper floors. Likewise, heat is going to travel upwards and spread the fire to the upper floors faster - which is what appears to have happened. There floors in between the area of destruction and the bottom floors appeared to be sound - then the building spontaneously collapsed. Very strange. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > When steel gets hot it loses its strength much faster than you would think. > The effect of the large fire was identical to a demolition crew taking out > all of the columns. Once the building started to move it was all over. > The second tower hit collapsed first due to the additional weight of the > structure above. > > The second tower to be hit was hit lower and also, I fear, trapped many more > people above the fire making the death toll much higher. > > Nightmare.... > > Can I wake up now??? > > Mike > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/fea8bd4e/attachment.bin From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Tue Sep 11 18:15:46 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E94D8.7305143D@woa.com.au> References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <3B9E94D8.7305143D@woa.com.au> Message-ID: <1000250150.13092.10.camel@DESK-2> I beleive that many tall buildings also have counterweights on an upper floor that compensate for strong winds, etc. When the buildings shift in a given direction, the counter weights are moved in the opposite direction. I don't know if the WTC buildings had such a system. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Tue, 2001-09-11 at 18:48, Terry Collins wrote: > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > What do they have water tanks on top for? Is that a standard thing with > > sky scrapers? Is it for fire fighting, or is it just part of the > > running water system of the buildings? > > Fire fighting system in case the water main is knocked out or weak > pressure. > > I would imagine that the WTC and other tall buildings would have to pump > water anyway. Mains pressure is only as high as the local water tower. > > -- > Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 > email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au > Wombat Outdoor Adventures > > "People without trees are like fish without clean water" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/57906681/attachment.bin From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 11 18:23:48 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <61.133d3431.28cf84c5@aol.com> <3B9E35E8.1DC9D37D@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3B9E9D04.722B57FF@tiac.net> The B24 moves much slower, and is far far lighter than a full load of jet fuel for a 767. The fact that those towers stood as long as they did is amazing. Clearly this is a turning point for American history, lets hope we move in the right direction. Chad Fernandez wrote: > >Looks like it hit sideways on edge, taking out that side of the building. a > >B24 hit the ESB, not that much damage. > > Yeah I knew the ESB was hit quite some time ago, A B24 sounds right. I > imagine a B24 would be much smaller. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 18:16:30 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the > anti-group attitude until it's determined who actually did it. > Although it looks like a middle eastern thing with reason for > justification there's still the possibility that some post-communist > group or other group that either follows the same ideals as those we > feel it is have done this, including a possibility of some inside > group. Also once it's determined we have to keep from including people > born in the US of the same background from being persecuted, like the > German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that group were done 60 > yrs ago. Not only that, but the assumption that everyone in the Middle East is hell bent on the distruction of the United States is misguided. I hope people can use this tragedy of epic proportions to learn compassion, understanding, and tolerance. Like I said, this is a reckoning. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Sep 11 18:35:07 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <20010911130544.A1301513@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911163329.024627f0@209.185.79.193> At 12:17 PM 9/11/01 -0700, you wrote: >If memory serves me, a 737 weighs in at about 200,000lbs empty, add maybe >another 150,000 for people, fuel, cargo and baggage. Plus, in case no one else has noticed, all the planes were large aircraft heading for west coast destinations, i.e. full of fuel. I have no trouble at all believing that a fuel/air explosion with 200,000 gallons of jet fuel could bring down the building. Give blood, give life, --Chuck From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 18:53:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <003f01c13ae8$e6a3c240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9E08A5.2573.24B3AB20@localhost> Message-ID: <003c01c13b1c$ffb416c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just to set the record straight ... I DID NOT SAY ANYONE HAD TO GIVE UP ANY PRIVACY RIGHTS. What I said, was that folks will, ultimately, have to make some choices. In case you wonder about that, read my entire post, please, and don't assume I said what you disagree with just to piss you off. what I said was, in part, "Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. If we insist on giving aid and comfort to minor criminals by failing to report them each and every time they violate our laws, and if we insist on retaining our privacy, we'll have to learn to tolerate this sort of event. The choice is between our own rights and those of the "minor" criminals. People wouldn't attempt to hide among the populace if they knew that the populace would phone the authorities to report their every action. There's a fine line between complacency and complicity." There's no guarantee that such acts can be anticipated and prevented at all, but it's clear that the only way is to have two guys watching each one of us or to have a computer that reads minds follow each of us around. That's not likely to happen soon. In this case, I disagree with Sellam ONLY in the sense that I don't consider choosing to let someone *other than the government* infringe on my right to live in an orderly crime-free society to be the right of a responsible citizen any more than I believe it's a responsible citizen's right to ignore government abuses. There are rights that have to be defended from infringement by the government and there are rights that have to be defended from infringement by other individuals, not to mention by artificial personages in the form of corporations. Law enforcement is everybody's job, not just that of the police. It starts with doing your part by obeying the laws, continues with changing/obsoleting the ones you don't like, and making new ones as they're needed, and, while it never ends, it also includes doing what you have to in order to ensure everyone else does his part as well. If you're not willing to do that, then you get what you deserve. Unfortunately, then everyone else gets what you deserve as well. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stan Sieler" To: "Sellam Ismail" ; Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 1:50 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Re: > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > > > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > > > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. > > Sellam quoted: > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin > > Absolutely! It's *way* too early to jump to the conclusion that > giving up privacy could in any way solve problems and be better for us > in the long run. Thanks, Sellam! > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler > > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Tue Sep 11 19:04:28 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <1000249924.13092.6.camel@DESK-2> References: <3B9E9517.DDA5DBD5@drewtech.com> <3B9E9517.DDA5DBD5@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010912005831.023f7cc8@192.168.1.2> At 12:11 am 12/09/2001, you wrote: >I agree that the leveling of the first building was odd. I'm not an >engineer, but the destruction from the crash *appeared* to be isolated >to the upper floors. Likewise, heat is going to travel upwards and >spread the fire to the upper floors faster - which is what appears to >have happened. There floors in between the area of destruction and the >bottom floors appeared to be sound - then the building spontaneously >collapsed. Very strange. According to the BBC, the construction of these buildings meant that most of the strength was in the outer skin. I can only surmise that the heat softened what remained of the internal structural stength following the crashes (and it is amazing the buildings survived that much), and the weight of the falling top caused a chain reaction. Regardless of the mechanics, this is a dreadful thing. I extend my heartfelt sympathies to anyone directly or indirectly affected on the list, and indeed beyond. -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 05/Sep/2001 From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 19:04:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: 3 (!) building next to WTC collapsed seconds ago - (was live on German TV) In-Reply-To: <00c101c13b0a$95f11100$e9396781@computer> Message-ID: Danke sehr, we understand well enough. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of PRICOMU -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 4:41 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: 3 (!) building next to WTC collapsed seconds ago - (was live on -> German TV) -> -> -> To all of you over there: -> I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the -> first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling -> with everyone -> injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As -> my English is -> not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are -> missings for those -> feelings... -> -> Thomas -> (from Germany) -> -> From LFessen106 at aol.com Tue Sep 11 19:07:27 2001 From: LFessen106 at aol.com (LFessen106@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: Sridhar? Message-ID: In a message dated 09/11/2001 14:25:22, you wrote: >I think he is in Florida with Dave Mcguire and Brian Hechinger rescuing some > >machines. > > Zach yes, they are due back today or tomorrow - hopefully tomorrow. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 19:21:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... References: Message-ID: <006a01c13b20$e2dfe200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Now just a minute, there, mister! I remember the hue and cry at the outset of the Gulf War when the nation's military was represented on the air for the better part of a week whining that they hadn't signed up to go somplace overseas to get shot-at, but only to be able to retire in luxury (at least above poverty-level) after only 20 years of doing very little useful work. That's what attracts the sorts that keep society from viewing the military as an honorable profession. (The current pres' brother Neil Bush went on trial on 1/15/91, the day the "Desert Shield" operation started, BTW, and that was probably no coincidence.) My own experience in the military, where I spent several years certainly taught me that few groups could be singled out as having fewer grey-cells per capita than the military, though there were certainly SOME people in it who weren't total nit-wits. The only group I've ever seen collected that has exhibited less intellectual horsepower than what I observed in the military is what's gathered in Washington D.C, and particularly in the White House during the current administration. The previous chief exec certainly was no beacon of honorability, but was certainly smarter than what's in power now. At least he spoke English well enough so you could understand what he'd said. His English is barely better than his Spanish, and that isn't too good! I'm ashamed to admit that I once made it a blanket policy to vote for Republicans, at least for state and local offices. Though I haven't voted for a Republican chief since the disappointing results I got from Tricky Dicky, the past election was the first one in which I actually voted for a Democrat ... ANY democrat. That was a vote against George II and largely because it's embarassing to have the pres of Mexico speak better English than our Pres. I admit that back when Carter, Sadat, and Arafat were on the tube, it wasn't our chief who spoke the most elegant English either, though at least he could put together a coherent subject and predicate. Now that he writes some of his own stuff it's improved greatly. The reason the military is weak is not because it has too little in resources, but because it's too corrupt, but not only from the top down, which is dishonest, for sure, but from the bottom up as well. That's because the entire premise of "sit around for 20 years, keep your head down, and retire ..." is corrupt. It wasn't always like that, but somewhere, between the 60's and the mid-70's ... Throwing more money at that mess won't fix a thing, and that's all those yokels in 'D.C. know how to do. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:00 PM Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash updates... > I actually would say that Uncle (horndog) Billie and his sidekick Algore > screwed up our defense system so badly that much of the systems we used to > have that could have possibly detected this (if it could have been at all) > and the loyalty to the US military weere gone and today, along with the > swift and intelligent actions of our new CIC, will serve to bring the > military back to some sense of loyalty and intelligence. Much of the reason > I opted for nearly a year early retirement was the state of the military and > our CIC at the time (95). > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:56 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... > -> > -> > -> Sellam Ismail wrote: > -> > All I have to say is that this country has finally done itself in with > -> > it's arrogance. > -> > -> I disagree. Any terrorist acts are the responsibility of the > -> terrorists. Even if someone doesn't like what the US does or is, it is > -> still there decision to do acts of terrorism. It is not our fault for > -> making people do acts of terrorism. > -> > -> > I fear this will plunge the world into war. > -> > -> I could see a very targeted attack against whoever the responsible > -> parties are, like when we went into Panama or Libya. > -> > -> Chad Fernandez > -> Michigan, USA > -> > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 19:30:07 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have many friends that are both natives of the US and immigrants to the US from middle eastern nations and they feel the pain of this as bad as any person of Ameerican Indian, European or African decent born in the US. A cabbie in Louisville that works near a building I had a service call at today had just come back from his second donation of blood for the blood bank - 2 hours after his first. He lied to the second donation center to have them allow his second doonation in one day. He's an Iranian by birth and naturalized just last year, sponsored by a person who was born in Louisville but whose parents are WWII immigrants from Jerusalem. They all are appauled and feel the same that the perps should be totally taken out but that the rest should not suffer for the acts of an isolated group. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Sellam Ismail -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:17 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the -> > anti-group attitude until it's determined who actually did it. -> > Although it looks like a middle eastern thing with reason for -> > justification there's still the possibility that some post-communist -> > group or other group that either follows the same ideals as those we -> > feel it is have done this, including a possibility of some inside -> > group. Also once it's determined we have to keep from including people -> > born in the US of the same background from being persecuted, like the -> > German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that group were done 60 -> > yrs ago. -> -> Not only that, but the assumption that everyone in the Middle -> East is hell -> bent on the distruction of the United States is misguided. -> -> I hope people can use this tragedy of epic proportions to learn -> compassion, understanding, and tolerance. -> -> Like I said, this is a reckoning. -> -> Sellam Ismail Vintage -> Computer Festival -> ----------------------------------------------------------------- -> ------------- -> International Man of Intrigue and Danger -> http://www.vintage.org -> -> From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 19:32:44 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <003c01c13b1c$ffb416c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Just to set the record straight ... I DID NOT SAY ANYONE HAD TO GIVE > UP ANY PRIVACY RIGHTS. What I said, was that folks will, ultimately, > have to make some choices. In case you wonder about that, read my > entire post, please, and don't assume I said what you disagree with > just to piss you off. > > what I said was, in part, Oh, I understood what you said. You were even kind enough to re-quote it for me. > "Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > cherish." And I still think you're incredibly misguided. > In this case, I disagree with Sellam ONLY in the sense that I don't consider No, you disagree with Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of this country, and a very wise man at that. > It starts with doing your part by obeying the laws, continues with > changing/obsoleting the ones you don't like, and making new ones as > they're needed, and, while it never ends, it also includes doing what > you have to in order to ensure everyone else does his part as well. Ok, let's arrest the President, his staff, and all the Senators and Congressmen who have put our nation in such a dire state by enacting policies that have made us the enemy of the world. Let's then turn them over to whomever is so pissed at them that they would kill innocent people to get at them. Are you willing to do that? > If you're not willing to do that, then you get what you deserve. > Unfortunately, then everyone else gets what you deserve as well. The U.S. has reaped what it has sown. I'm listening to our fearless leader right now, continuing to make a complete ass of himself. Impeachment anyone? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com Tue Sep 11 19:37:10 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: from "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" at "Sep 11, 2001 01:34:48 pm" Message-ID: <200109120037.f8C0bAG12468@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin > > Thank you, Sellam > > Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a > bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred > To all of you over there: > I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the > first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling with everyone > injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As my English is > not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are missings for those > feelings... > > Thomas > (from Germany) We live in very strange times. My daughter's friend's dad may have lost his best friend on the 108th floor of the 2 World Trade Center... but he doesn't know his friend's status yet. I think that most people around the world would feel for the loss of life of the folks in the building. I grew up in New York and attended schools there before moving to New Jersey. I was a history major before getting in to this computer industry. I've worked with folks from all over the globe in multinational companies. I don't think I'm unusual in my view that this type of action deserves decisive punishment when the people responsible are found. If you allow it to drive the civil population into a state of fear and panic and if we begin to curtail freedom of speach and assembly they will be winning. The only way to avoid events like this is to increase security at airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious baggage and weapons check. I'd hate to see this anti-foreigner attitude take hold for real. Historically it usually occurs for a short period of time before people realize we're a nation built mainly of foreigners who came here to avoid pogroms and repression on economic, religious and ethnic grounds. I really don't think I'm a great fan of either President Bush or former President Clinton, but I really feel that the military and intelligence community have not done enough to get ready for the new non-traditional methods of conflict and we're headed for more of this. I've worked out of Fort Monmouth for DEC and other organizations and I know the bureacracy there has kept the military from using the commercially available technologies effectively. The US military is way too wedded to the old mil-spec way of doing things. Wired had a good article showing that they're beginning to hire consultants to adjust their method of doing business. They used to draw up specs for things they needed which caused their costs to be hire than off-the-shelf technology would have been. Building custom limited production devices is expensive. Luckily they cancelled their MCF Military Computer Family project which was building a Vax work-alike computer in the mid-80's when the MicrovaxII became available off the shelf. They're beginning to adapt. I hope it will allow us to avoid losing our freedoms to have the security all folks want and deserve. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com Tue Sep 11 19:38:48 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911160625.00a5c610@mail.wincom.net> from "Charles E. Fox" at "Sep 11, 2001 04:14:45 pm" Message-ID: <200109120038.f8C0cmw12521@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> > I wonder how badly the television engineering community of New > York was hit, there were a lot of stations located in that tower. > > > Charlie Fox Channel 2 the CBS affiliate (WCBS) in NY lost two technicians there according to the reports. I fully figure there will be more heard from in the industry -- since the news is very slow and the examination of the wreckage will take days. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jss at subatomix.com Tue Sep 11 19:38:20 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E9760.150FAF7E@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <20010911192554.N34688-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Let me get this straight: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Mike Drew wrote: > > This has the middle east written all over it... > Let those that claim to be innocent sue for peace! > I hope that twe nuke then back to the stone age.... It's people like you -- intolerant of ethnicity, assuming the guilt of a group of people based on pure rumor, even *wishing* for nuclear war -- that should truly be feared. Let us all hope that someone like you never gets their hand on 'the button'. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 19:39:16 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E9D04.722B57FF@tiac.net> Message-ID: Not to mention the amount of sway in the towers on a normal calm day and you could tell that there was a fairly stiff wind drawingt he dust and smoke off the site which likely acted like a windy day on a rotting tree. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Shannon -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:24 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> The B24 moves much slower, and is far far lighter than a full load of -> jet fuel for a 767. -> -> The fact that those towers stood as long as they did is amazing. -> -> Clearly this is a turning point for American history, lets hope -> we move in -> the right direction. -> -> Chad Fernandez wrote: -> -> > >Looks like it hit sideways on edge, taking out that side of -> the building. a -> > >B24 hit the ESB, not that much damage. -> > -> > Yeah I knew the ESB was hit quite some time ago, A B24 sounds right. I -> > imagine a B24 would be much smaller. -> > -> > Chad Fernandez -> > Michigan, USA -> -> From pechter at bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com Tue Sep 11 19:49:04 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Sep 11, 2001 05:32:44 pm" Message-ID: <200109120049.f8C0n4812774@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> > I'm listening to our fearless leader right now, continuing to make a > complete ass of himself. Impeachment anyone? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival Nope... I don't think much of the policies of our current and recent administrations (back through the late 60's). However, I'd sooner see any of them in charge of this country than you right now. I'd defend your right to make these comments. However I defend my right to call you a horses ass for making them. (not to mention very politically naive). Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From Diff at Mac.com Tue Sep 11 20:09:59 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <008301c13afd$0735fc80$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <003b01c13b27$a5b06a10$0501000a@laboffice> Supposedly the building was deliberatly designed to take the impact of a 707 impact, it was part of the design specifications, and as such, they had steel girders every 3 feet, as opposed to every 6-10 feet. What caused the structure to fail was that the jets that hit it were all long haul jets that had not gone very far, causing them to have full fuel loads, the heat caused by the fuel fires reached 1500c (or so I have heard), causing the girders to weaken, and then the thing went. All things considered, we are luck those buildings held up that long. Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 4:04 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > It also looks like a Towerbuilding that came down in the UK back in > the sixties. It was supported only by the walls of the structure and > a gas explosion took away a few walls. Subsequently part of the building > came down because of the weight of the collapsing concrete above > the explosion. many people lost their lives and building regulations > in the UK were tightened later on. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 19:38:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <000001c13b28$8b889800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, I definitely put my foot in it that time, but what I believed at the time was that the second event, initially reported as a plane crash into a helipad on another building, was unrelated to the WTC event(s), as it had been so sketchily reported. I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S, yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway. Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start of his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of approximately 2.2 Billion dollars. Disagreeing with a politician, wherever you are, is not a declaration of wishing him harm. I don't wish the senseless twit harm either, though I frequently wish him laryngitis. Mostly I wish him some basic education, which, unfortunately, he didn't get the first time he had a chance, and probably won't get this time either. His daddy seems to have taught him well the concept of surrounding himself with people of ethics more questionable than even his own. He nominated and had confirmed a Secretary of the Interior, formerly the unpopular state treasurer of Colorado, who was several times accused, but, owing to her wily nature, never convicted, of various corrupt acts including things such as embezzlement and misapropriation of funds, and the like. His only saving grace is that he's probably not substantially more addleheaded than his opponent in the controversial election he won. Neither of them seemed able to speak the truth; one because he couldn't speak, the other because he didn't recognize the truth. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > > > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these were > > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on a > > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than that > > ... > > I don't find that last comment remotely funny. > > FWIW, there are some aspects of the US President's current policies that I > disagree with. 'DIsagree' in the sense that if I was a US citizen I would > have voted against him in the elections. Not that I wish him (or anyone > else) any harm. > > I disagree infinitely more with terrorist action though. I don't believe > that killing anyone, particularly not 'innocent bystanders' is ever going > to solve anything. > > My thoughts are with those who may have lost family, friends or loved > ones in these terrible incidents. > > :-( > > -tony > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Sep 11 20:42:48 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: A great loss, on topic... Message-ID: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Today Tim Olmstead passed away from a battle with cancer. A great loss. For those less familiar with his efforts for the classic computer community the _Unofficial CP/M Web_ site is his effort. For me I lost a friend and someone that shared the love of a system he could totally understand to the very hardware and bits that made it run. Allison From mrbill at mrbill.net Tue Sep 11 20:38:12 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <3B9E55DA.A8FD06DA@internet1.net> <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010911203812.N23360@mrbill.net> On Tue, Sep 11, 2001 at 03:50:59PM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I don't know if it's a lack of supply or an excess of demand, but most of > the gas stations here have run out of gas to dispense. The few remaining > places have jacked their prices up over $4.00/gal. Prices here have been > hovering around $1.50/gal, which is already expensive by our local > standards. Strange. I got gas at 1.34/gallon for 87 octane on my way home from work - filled up before the prices go up. All the "big" chains (7-11, Tigermarket, etc) were packed, but my neighborhood store was fine. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:08:46 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010911192554.N34688-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: You hit it exactly right on this one. I worked nuclear cruise missiles during my career int he USAF and I have no desire to see more than the ALCM-C (ALCM's with a conventional warhead) missiles depoyed. I still have my reservations about the need for nuclear war in any circumstance. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:38 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> Let me get this straight: -> -> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Mike Drew wrote: -> > -> > This has the middle east written all over it... -> > Let those that claim to be innocent sue for peace! -> > I hope that twe nuke then back to the stone age.... -> -> It's people like you -- intolerant of ethnicity, assuming the guilt of a -> group of people based on pure rumor, even *wishing* for nuclear war -- -> that should truly be feared. -> -> Let us all hope that someone like you never gets their hand on 'the -> button'. -> -> -- -> Jeffrey S. Sharp -> jss@subatomix.com -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:17:07 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <200109120038.f8C0cmw12521@bg-tc-ppp748.monmouth.com> Message-ID: Wasn't WWOR transmitted off the antenna tower? I know WGN in Chicago is done from the antenna array on the Sears Tower and I'm fairly sure that WWOR had something in conncetion to the WTC -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bill Pechter -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:39 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: World Trade crash... -> -> -> > I wonder how badly the television engineering -> community of New -> > York was hit, there were a lot of stations located in that tower. -> > -> > > Charlie Fox -> -> Channel 2 the CBS affiliate (WCBS) in NY lost two technicians there -> according to the reports. I fully figure there will be more heard from -> in the industry -- since the news is very slow and the examination of -> the wreckage will take days. -> -> Bill -> -> -- -> d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! -> bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:17:05 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911163329.024627f0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: Close - it's listed as a 312,000lb take off weight which generally means the max weight to be able to lift off the ground (full 69,000 lb "payload" of passengers, fuel, etc) so it fully fueled and half the payload is one heavy mo-fo. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:35 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> At 12:17 PM 9/11/01 -0700, you wrote: -> >If memory serves me, a 737 weighs in at about 200,000lbs empty, -> add maybe -> >another 150,000 for people, fuel, cargo and baggage. -> -> Plus, in case no one else has noticed, all the planes were large -> aircraft -> heading for west coast destinations, i.e. full of fuel. I have -> no trouble -> at all believing that a fuel/air explosion with 200,000 gallons -> of jet fuel -> could bring down the building. -> -> Give blood, give life, -> --Chuck -> -> -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:24:01 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: <006a01c13b20$e2dfe200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Well it appears that opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they usually stink. I feel that Clinton would be better suited as a cotton farmer in Mississippi and Gore a towel boy in a gay bath house and that GWB is well educated and very clear spoken but you see it the other. Not a problem, that's why we have freedom of sppech in our country. We also have freedom of religion which is why I choose atheism. We have freedom to bear arms which is why I have a hefty gun collection (not necessarily for protection either) and so on. We can each enjoy our own opinion and feel good about our military service, but still feel that one or the other CIC is a dork without killing each other. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... -> -> -> Now just a minute, there, mister! -> -> I remember the hue and cry at the outset of the Gulf War when -> the nation's -> military was represented on the air for the better part of a -> week whining that -> they hadn't signed up to go somplace overseas to get shot-at, -> but only to be -> able to retire in luxury (at least above poverty-level) after -> only 20 years of -> doing very little useful work. That's what attracts the sorts -> that keep society -> from viewing the military as an honorable profession. (The current pres' -> brother Neil Bush went on trial on 1/15/91, the day the "Desert Shield" -> operation started, BTW, and that was probably no coincidence.) -> -> My own experience in the military, where I spent several years -> certainly taught -> me that few groups could be singled out as having fewer -> grey-cells per capita -> than the military, though there were certainly SOME people in it -> who weren't -> total nit-wits. The only group I've ever seen collected that -> has exhibited less -> intellectual horsepower than what I observed in the military is -> what's gathered -> in Washington D.C, and particularly in the White House during the current -> administration. -> -> The previous chief exec certainly was no beacon of honorability, but was -> certainly smarter than what's in power now. At least he spoke -> English well -> enough so you could understand what he'd said. His English is -> barely better -> than his Spanish, and that isn't too good! -> -> I'm ashamed to admit that I once made it a blanket policy to vote for -> Republicans, at least for state and local offices. Though I -> haven't voted for a -> Republican chief since the disappointing results I got from -> Tricky Dicky, the -> past election was the first one in which I actually voted for a -> Democrat ... ANY -> democrat. That was a vote against George II and largely because it's -> embarassing to have the pres of Mexico speak better English than -> our Pres. I -> admit that back when Carter, Sadat, and Arafat were on the tube, -> it wasn't our -> chief who spoke the most elegant English either, though at least -> he could put -> together a coherent subject and predicate. Now that he writes -> some of his own -> stuff it's improved greatly. -> -> The reason the military is weak is not because it has too little -> in resources, -> but because it's too corrupt, but not only from the top down, which is -> dishonest, for sure, but from the bottom up as well. That's -> because the entire -> premise of "sit around for 20 years, keep your head down, and -> retire ..." is -> corrupt. It wasn't always like that, but somewhere, between the -> 60's and the -> mid-70's ... Throwing more money at that mess won't fix a thing, -> and that's all -> those yokels in 'D.C. know how to do. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Russ Blakeman" -> To: -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:00 PM -> Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash updates... -> -> -> > I actually would say that Uncle (horndog) Billie and his -> sidekick Algore -> > screwed up our defense system so badly that much of the -> systems we used to -> > have that could have possibly detected this (if it could have -> been at all) -> > and the loyalty to the US military weere gone and today, along with the -> > swift and intelligent actions of our new CIC, will serve to bring the -> > military back to some sense of loyalty and intelligence. Much -> of the reason -> > I opted for nearly a year early retirement was the state of -> the military and -> > our CIC at the time (95). -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> > -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:56 AM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> Sellam Ismail wrote: -> > -> > All I have to say is that this country has finally done -> itself in with -> > -> > it's arrogance. -> > -> -> > -> I disagree. Any terrorist acts are the responsibility of the -> > -> terrorists. Even if someone doesn't like what the US does -> or is, it is -> > -> still there decision to do acts of terrorism. It is not -> our fault for -> > -> making people do acts of terrorism. -> > -> -> > -> > I fear this will plunge the world into war. -> > -> -> > -> I could see a very targeted attack against whoever the responsible -> > -> parties are, like when we went into Panama or Libya. -> > -> -> > -> Chad Fernandez -> > -> Michigan, USA -> > -> -> > -> > -> -> From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 21:25:05 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: A great loss, on topic... In-Reply-To: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, ajp166 wrote: > Today Tim Olmstead passed away from a battle with cancer. > A great loss. > > For those less familiar with his efforts for the classic computer > community the _Unofficial CP/M Web_ site is his effort. > > For me I lost a friend and someone that shared the love of a system > he could totally understand to the very hardware and bits that made > it run. I'm sorry to hear this. My condolences go out to you and his family. At least one of his legacies, in the form of his website, will live on. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:26:12 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: <006a01c13b20$e2dfe200$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: By the way the whining at the onset of thr Gulf ar was from reservists who thought they'd never be deployed. I was there and know exactly who they had going and their little spouses screaming how they were done wrong by GHB and his bunch of idiots. Not disagreeing with you, just clarifying. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... -> -> -> Now just a minute, there, mister! -> -> I remember the hue and cry at the outset of the Gulf War when -> the nation's -> military was represented on the air for the better part of a -> week whining that -> they hadn't signed up to go somplace overseas to get shot-at, -> but only to be -> able to retire in luxury (at least above poverty-level) after -> only 20 years of -> doing very little useful work. That's what attracts the sorts -> that keep society -> from viewing the military as an honorable profession. (The current pres' -> brother Neil Bush went on trial on 1/15/91, the day the "Desert Shield" -> operation started, BTW, and that was probably no coincidence.) -> -> My own experience in the military, where I spent several years -> certainly taught -> me that few groups could be singled out as having fewer -> grey-cells per capita -> than the military, though there were certainly SOME people in it -> who weren't -> total nit-wits. The only group I've ever seen collected that -> has exhibited less -> intellectual horsepower than what I observed in the military is -> what's gathered -> in Washington D.C, and particularly in the White House during the current -> administration. -> -> The previous chief exec certainly was no beacon of honorability, but was -> certainly smarter than what's in power now. At least he spoke -> English well -> enough so you could understand what he'd said. His English is -> barely better -> than his Spanish, and that isn't too good! -> -> I'm ashamed to admit that I once made it a blanket policy to vote for -> Republicans, at least for state and local offices. Though I -> haven't voted for a -> Republican chief since the disappointing results I got from -> Tricky Dicky, the -> past election was the first one in which I actually voted for a -> Democrat ... ANY -> democrat. That was a vote against George II and largely because it's -> embarassing to have the pres of Mexico speak better English than -> our Pres. I -> admit that back when Carter, Sadat, and Arafat were on the tube, -> it wasn't our -> chief who spoke the most elegant English either, though at least -> he could put -> together a coherent subject and predicate. Now that he writes -> some of his own -> stuff it's improved greatly. -> -> The reason the military is weak is not because it has too little -> in resources, -> but because it's too corrupt, but not only from the top down, which is -> dishonest, for sure, but from the bottom up as well. That's -> because the entire -> premise of "sit around for 20 years, keep your head down, and -> retire ..." is -> corrupt. It wasn't always like that, but somewhere, between the -> 60's and the -> mid-70's ... Throwing more money at that mess won't fix a thing, -> and that's all -> those yokels in 'D.C. know how to do. -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Russ Blakeman" -> To: -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:00 PM -> Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash updates... -> -> -> > I actually would say that Uncle (horndog) Billie and his -> sidekick Algore -> > screwed up our defense system so badly that much of the -> systems we used to -> > have that could have possibly detected this (if it could have -> been at all) -> > and the loyalty to the US military weere gone and today, along with the -> > swift and intelligent actions of our new CIC, will serve to bring the -> > military back to some sense of loyalty and intelligence. Much -> of the reason -> > I opted for nearly a year early retirement was the state of -> the military and -> > our CIC at the time (95). -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> > -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:56 AM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> Sellam Ismail wrote: -> > -> > All I have to say is that this country has finally done -> itself in with -> > -> > it's arrogance. -> > -> -> > -> I disagree. Any terrorist acts are the responsibility of the -> > -> terrorists. Even if someone doesn't like what the US does -> or is, it is -> > -> still there decision to do acts of terrorism. It is not -> our fault for -> > -> making people do acts of terrorism. -> > -> -> > -> > I fear this will plunge the world into war. -> > -> -> > -> I could see a very targeted attack against whoever the responsible -> > -> parties are, like when we went into Panama or Libya. -> > -> -> > -> Chad Fernandez -> > -> Michigan, USA -> > -> -> > -> > -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:31:02 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: May be of interest for some - list of those alright in each area. Message-ID: Prodigy has this posted for people to be listed as OK. Not sure how accurate it might be but it might help some people. http://okay.prodigy.net/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010911/bbc29639/attachment.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Tue Sep 11 21:33:50 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT: 767 specs Message-ID: In case someone was curious - not sure which model of the 767 was used in each event. http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/index.html From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 11 20:29:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <000001c13b33$cc84a320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I can't agree with your logic or with the conclusions at which you arrive this time. However, it's clear that you can, at least, turn a phrase much better than our chief exec. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 6:32 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Just to set the record straight ... I DID NOT SAY ANYONE HAD TO GIVE > > UP ANY PRIVACY RIGHTS. What I said, was that folks will, ultimately, > > have to make some choices. In case you wonder about that, read my > > entire post, please, and don't assume I said what you disagree with > > just to piss you off. > > > > what I said was, in part, > > Oh, I understood what you said. You were even kind enough to re-quote it > for me. > > > "Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > > cherish." > > And I still think you're incredibly misguided. > > > In this case, I disagree with Sellam ONLY in the sense that I don't consider > > No, you disagree with Benjamin Franklin, a founding father of this > country, and a very wise man at that. > > > It starts with doing your part by obeying the laws, continues with > > changing/obsoleting the ones you don't like, and making new ones as > > they're needed, and, while it never ends, it also includes doing what > > you have to in order to ensure everyone else does his part as well. > > Ok, let's arrest the President, his staff, and all the Senators and > Congressmen who have put our nation in such a dire state by enacting > policies that have made us the enemy of the world. Let's then turn them > over to whomever is so pissed at them that they would kill innocent people > to get at them. > > Are you willing to do that? > > > If you're not willing to do that, then you get what you deserve. > > Unfortunately, then everyone else gets what you deserve as well. > > The U.S. has reaped what it has sown. > > I'm listening to our fearless leader right now, continuing to make a > complete ass of himself. Impeachment anyone? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From arthur.clark3 at verizon.net Tue Sep 11 21:46:25 2001 From: arthur.clark3 at verizon.net (Arthur E. Clark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: <200109120037.f8C0bAG12468@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> References: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911221027.033daaf0@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 08:37 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > > > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin > > > > Thank you, Sellam > > > > Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a > > bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred Yes. That is the other threat posed by the events of today. Some in our society, the reactionary elements in the federal law enforcement and "national security" agencies, will no doubt try to use these events as an excuse to further gut civil liberties which have already been nearly eviscerated by the miserable failure known as the "War on Drugs." The congressional reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah federal building produced new federal laws greatly expanding the power of the FBI and other federal law enforcement agencies to surveil and infiltrate organizations they wish to investigate, even if the organization in question cannot be connected with criminal activity. The same opportunists who capitalized on that tragedy will not doubt try to do the same with this one. Unfortunately, they will probably succeed. >The only way to avoid events like this is to increase security at >airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard >of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious >baggage and weapons check. It's sad. At the height of the late 80s wave of terrorist airliner bombings, I went to the UK on a high school trip. The security at JFK was a joke. The person tending the x-ray machine wasn't even looking at the screen half of the time. Gate and checkpoint security were not much better. In contrast, in Ireland on the trip home to the US, two guards were glued to the x-ray machine monitor, everyone's passports were individually checked, and every one of us was questioned extensively before we were permitted to through _two_ metal detectors. After that we got to go to another checkpoint to get our tickets back so that we could go to the gate to then have our tickets checked against our passports. _That_ is real security. From lance at costanzo.net Tue Sep 11 22:08:11 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:27 2005 Subject: A great loss, on topic... Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010911200810.00825590@costanzo.net> That hits home. I had a some email exchanges with Tim a couple of years ago when I discovered his site and sorted through some of the disk images he had online. A great guy, and truly a great loss. At 09:42 PM 9/11/01 -0400, you wrote: >Today Tim Olmstead passed away from a battle with cancer. >A great loss. > >For those less familiar with his efforts for the classic computer >community the _Unofficial CP/M Web_ site is his effort. > >For me I lost a friend and someone that shared the love of a system >he could totally understand to the very hardware and bits that made >it run. > >Allison > > > From marvin at rain.org Tue Sep 11 22:15:14 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <000001c13b28$8b889800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9ED342.F86EACC@rain.org> Dick, You talk about a lack of ethics with Bush, but Clinton did an unbelieveable lowering of standards for the President of the USA. Also, "majority" is a funny type of definition. Who else took the Presidency without a "majority" vote in the not too distant past? (I don't need a response to the questions!!!) How about taking this whole discussion someplace other than this list! While somewhat understandable, this whole "World Trade Crash discussion is Off Topic for THIS list!!! Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Well, I definitely put my foot in it that time, but what I believed at the time > was that the second event, initially reported as a plane crash into a helipad on > another building, was unrelated to the WTC event(s), as it had been so sketchily > reported. > > I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S, > yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated > henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway. > Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as > well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start of > his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he > purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of > approximately 2.2 Billion dollars. > > Disagreeing with a politician, wherever you are, is not a declaration of wishing > him harm. I don't wish the senseless twit harm either, though I frequently wish > him laryngitis. Mostly I wish him some basic education, which, unfortunately, > he didn't get the first time he had a chance, and probably won't get this time > either. > > His daddy seems to have taught him well the concept of surrounding himself with > people of ethics more questionable than even his own. He nominated and had > confirmed a Secretary of the Interior, formerly the unpopular state treasurer of > Colorado, who was several times accused, but, owing to her wily nature, never > convicted, of various corrupt acts including things such as embezzlement and > misapropriation of funds, and the like. > > His only saving grace is that he's probably not substantially more addleheaded > than his opponent in the controversial election he won. Neither of them seemed > able to speak the truth; one because he couldn't speak, the other because he > didn't recognize the truth. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:40 PM > Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > > > > > > Yes ... Dubya must have REALLY pissed someone off! Reports are that these > were > > > specific attacks, and that there was also an apparently intentional crash on > a > > > helipad near the Pentagon ... You'd think they'd get closer than > that > > > ... > > > > I don't find that last comment remotely funny. > > > > FWIW, there are some aspects of the US President's current policies that I > > disagree with. 'DIsagree' in the sense that if I was a US citizen I would > > have voted against him in the elections. Not that I wish him (or anyone > > else) any harm. > > > > I disagree infinitely more with terrorist action though. I don't believe > > that killing anyone, particularly not 'innocent bystanders' is ever going > > to solve anything. > > > > My thoughts are with those who may have lost family, friends or loved > > ones in these terrible incidents. > > > > :-( > > > > -tony > > > > From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 11 22:17:53 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <00ec01c13a80$9261ea80$1b28b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic > systems whose > > > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of > time (including any > > > >that would have if they were still running today)? > > > > > > Big Ben in London? :-p > > > > Relative youngster! What comes to mind immediately - and > I know that > > there are older ones - is the chiming clock in the Piazza > San Marco of > > Venice that has been telling time since prior to 1492. > > > > - don > > > Stonehenge? > I was thinking `clocks', but Stomehenge could seem to possibly qualify as a timekeeping mechanism! (Love that place! Been there a couple times and never tire of it.) - don From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 11 22:23:59 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <01c301c13a82$33235e80$de2c67cb@stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Geoff Roberts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Maslin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 2:06 PM > Subject: Re: Administrivia - Billion Second Day > > > > > > > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Chris wrote: > > > > > >So... what are the most outstanding examples of classic systems > whose > > > >timekeeping mechanisms have withstood the passage of time > (including any > > > >that would have if they were still running today)? > > > > > > Big Ben in London? :-p > > > > Relative youngster! What comes to mind immediately - and I know that > > there are older ones - is the chiming clock in the Piazza San Marco of > > Venice that has been telling time since prior to 1492. > > Remember seeing something on Discovery about a recently restored clock > dating from the 13th or 14th century, it has no face, (by design - not > because it lost it) just sounds a bell at the appropriate hours/half > hours IIRC. > Somewhere in England. Can't recall where now.. > > Cheers > > Geoff in Oz There are a number of rather remarkable ancient (by anyones definition) clocks in the world with such capabilities as telling phases of the moon, star positions, etc. that I, unfortunately, do not remember. Actually, I cited the Venetian clock because it made such an impression on me when I saw it thirty years ago that it was the first (and only definitive example) that came to mind. - don From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Sep 11 22:32:24 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: still more OT Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911203127.02323eb0@209.185.79.193> Now CNN is reporting some people arrested on the George Washington Bridge driving a van full of explosives. It isn't "over" yet, --Chuck From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 11 22:31:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911221027.033daaf0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Arthur E. Clark wrote: > Drugs." The congressional reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing of > the Murrah federal building produced new federal laws greatly > expanding the power of the FBI and other federal law enforcement > agencies to surveil and infiltrate organizations they wish to > investigate, even if the organization in question cannot be connected > with criminal activity. The same opportunists who capitalized on that > tragedy will not doubt try to do the same with this one. > Unfortunately, they will probably succeed. Yes, and a lot of good those enhanced powers given to the FBI did us today. I wish more people would pay attention to history. I would hope that all of use here, being amateur historians, will do just that (in all aspects of our lives). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Sep 11 22:36:26 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: ok, so no explosives Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911203541.023201b0@209.185.79.193> The NY police are now denying that the van had any explosives. Still, I can't sleep. From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 11 22:44:20 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9E2B8B.AA89B92D@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > ABC was saying that the State Dept. car bomb or whatever, isn't > accurate. Seems rather chaotic now. The Pennsylvania crash hasn't been > detailed yet, unfortunately. > > > I wonder if this is foreign or more of the McViegh homeboys? Obviously foreign. `McVeigh homeboys' are not inclined to offer up their own lives in such efforts as are the `foreignboys'. - don > Chad > > LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas my heart and > > prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast there have been 4 > > attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, and the state > > dept bldg in washington. > > > > -Linc Fessenden > > > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > From lance at costanzo.net Tue Sep 11 23:11:40 2001 From: lance at costanzo.net (Lance Costanzo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: halfmast.jpg (non-political) Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010911211137.007f1d80@costanzo.net> Like most of you, I sat around most of Tuesday watching/listening to the news, but mostly being unable to concentrate on work. I needed to do something, so I created a small graphic (I'm definitely not a graphic designer, but I got the proportions reasonably correct) of a US flag at half mast and will be using it on my web sites as a remembrance of today's tragedy. If you'd like to do the same: http://www.webhighrise.com/halfmast.jpg From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 11 23:19:25 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B8353C4000012A3@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 cmurillo@multi.net.co wrote: > > >On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > > >> And I am hoping that whatever retaliation is taken targets only those > >> that are guilty, and not innocent bystanders. Most people under > >> Taleban rule are also victims. > > > >Don't you think it is not only extremely premature but also highly > >irresponsible to assume this was an attack carried out by any particular > >group? > > > >Remember Oklahoma City? > > I think you might be right. I jumped to conclusions. It is > just that the organization of this clearly cost millions of > dollars, and there aren't those many terrorist organizations > around with such deep pockets. Why? There were likely no more than five or six participants in each of the four planes. Say, twenty-five people max. Allow a few more at each of the sirport terminals for whatever function. Fifty total? An additional core of some indeterminate number who did the planning for this exercise. Read the flight schedules and aircraft types from websites on the 'net. Figure which day of the week would likely have the lightest passenger loads (fewer people to resist). Then Make it happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a hundres thousand or so. - don > >I don't think this incident calls for ANY retaliation. I think it DOES > >call for America to take a moment to reflect on why any particular group > >would want to inflict such horror on our nation. People just don't get > >up > >one day and say "Gee, I think I'll completely raze the World Trade Center > >buildings...what fun that would be!" > > The way I see it, it just shows that "security" and modern life > as we know it are incompatible. We can't have both, especially > not through military/big brother solutions. A whole different > approach is required to deal with conflicts globally, one in which > none of the parties is bitter enough to try to get revenge. > Remember the WWI armistice and the inhumane conditions it imposed > on the losing side, thus creating the conditions for WWII. > > > carlos. > > > > From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Tue Sep 11 23:45:33 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <3B8353C4000012A3@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911214326.02465880@209.185.79.193> At 09:19 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Don wrote: >happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a hundres thousand or so. Don, you forget forged passports, training, installing and coordinating agents etc. This is definitely a big operation. From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 11 23:57:28 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: <200109120037.f8C0bAG12468@bg-tc-ppp86.monmouth.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > Sadly, the only way in which such acts can be anticipated and > > > prevented in the future is for us to give up some of the privacy we > > > cherish. Technology and law protect those who enjoy this privacy. > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > > > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin > > > > Thank you, Sellam > > > > Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a > > bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred > > > > To all of you over there: > > I can?t describe what I felt when having heard those bad news an seen the > > first pictures... Tears are in my and many German eyes feeling with everyone > > injured or the people who have lost relatives or friends... As my English is > > not very good I?m not going to try to say more. Words are missings for those > > feelings... > > > > Thomas > > (from Germany) > > We live in very strange times. > My daughter's friend's dad may have lost his best friend on the 108th > floor of the 2 World Trade Center... but he doesn't know his friend's > status yet. > > I think that most people around the world would feel for the loss of > life of the folks in the building. I grew up in New York and > attended schools there before moving to New Jersey. > > I was a history major before getting in to this computer industry. > I've worked with folks from all over the globe in multinational > companies. > > I don't think I'm unusual in my view that this type of action deserves > decisive punishment when the people responsible are found. > If you allow it to drive the civil population into a state of fear and > panic and if we begin to curtail freedom of speach and assembly they > will be winning. > > The only way to avoid events like this is to increase security at > airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard > of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious > baggage and weapons check. > > I'd hate to see this anti-foreigner attitude take hold for real. > Historically it usually occurs for a short period of time before > people realize we're a nation built mainly of foreigners who came here > to avoid pogroms and repression on economic, religious and > ethnic grounds. > > I really don't think I'm a great fan of either President Bush or > former President Clinton, but I really feel that the military and > intelligence community have not done enough to get ready for the > new non-traditional methods of conflict and we're headed for more of > this. > > I've worked out of Fort Monmouth for DEC and other organizations and I > know the bureacracy there has kept the military from using the > commercially available technologies effectively. > > The US military is way too wedded to the old mil-spec way of > doing things. Wired had a good article showing that they're beginning to > hire consultants to adjust their method of doing business. > > They used to draw up specs for things they needed which caused their > costs to be hire than off-the-shelf technology would have been. > Building custom limited production devices is expensive. > Luckily they cancelled their MCF Military Computer Family project > which was building a Vax work-alike computer in the mid-80's > when the MicrovaxII became available off the shelf. I think that you need to explore whether it is the military or the Congress that created and fostered the Mil-Spec and contractual wickets that are finally being whittled down. No argument, however, that it was/is costly and unproductive. - don > They're beginning to adapt. I hope it will allow us to avoid losing our > freedoms to have the security all folks want and deserve. > > Bill > -- > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 12 00:03:00 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: A great loss, on topic... In-Reply-To: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, ajp166 wrote: > Today Tim Olmstead passed away from a battle with cancer. > A great loss. I share your feeling of loss, Allison. While Tim and I never met, I had sufficient communications with him to admire the man very much - both for his interests and more so for his efforts. It is a great loss! - don > For those less familiar with his efforts for the classic computer > community the _Unofficial CP/M Web_ site is his effort. > > For me I lost a friend and someone that shared the love of a system > he could totally understand to the very hardware and bits that made > it run. > > Allison > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 12 00:12:38 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Tandy 1400 LT In-Reply-To: <3B9DBE15.DB0DB0F8@internet1.net> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467051@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <10109110749.ZM3474@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: I bought a Tandy 1400 portable today. Not bad shape, a bit of plastic damage in a couple places on the case, but it lights up and asks for a floppy and the battery doesn't even appear totally totally dead (only mostly dead). Is this the first Tandy laptop? Anybody interested before eBay? NEC 8088 4.77/7.00 MHz CPU (V-20) LCD Backlit CGA Display Panel Dual 3.5" 720k Disk Drives 640k RAM Serial/Parallel/CGA/TV Connectors From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 12 00:19:42 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911214326.02465880@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > At 09:19 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Don wrote: > >happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a hundres thousand or so. > > Don, you forget forged passports, training, installing and coordinating > agents etc. This is definitely a big operation. Don't agree. Because it was a lean operation is exactly why it succeeded so well. Fewer folk knew, so fewer folk could slip up and accidentally blow the plan. Certainly, they needed at least four people who could fly a 757/767 - at least well enough to find NYC and fly it into one of the Bobsy Twins. Forged passports? Get 'em in Tijuana. How much training does it take to learn to use a box knife? No, sorry, lean, effective, and cheap! - don From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 00:33:35 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010912053335.42143.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> --- John Honniball wrote: > > On Mon, 10 Sep 2001 19:55:38 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell > wrote: > > Which IBM IEEE card? There are at least 2... > My Brain Boxes card has a 7210 chip, plus the two IEEE bus > buffer chips and a bunch of PALs, buffers, etc. for the ISA > bus. There are six DIP-switches for the base address and > mode, plus some jumpers for IRQ and DMA settings. That sounds a little like what I have... Mine are National Instruments 180212-01, Rev A PCBs (c. 1984), silk-screened to Assy. No. 180210-0. The main chip is an NEC 7201, the IEEE-488 interface chips are Nat. Semi DS75162 and DS75160. There's a five-position DIP switch labelled "0, 1, 2, 14, 13", which I take to be a GPIB address, a bank of jumpers marked "I2, I3, I4, I5, I6, I7" (it's an 8-bit card, but you don't usually see things trying to use IRQ6), and a bank of DMA jumpers marked "R1, A1, R2, A2, R3, A3". Additionally, there are unpopulated areas of the board, indicating that it could have a Lithium coin cell, a 58167 and some additional TTL logic (74LS273, 74LS00 and a 74LS32). I'd consider populating it if a) I had the 58167 and b) knew what the values of the dozen or so discreet parts are (including Xtal Y1). I remember looking for this card on the Nat'l Instruments site when I first got them. I came up zilch. Does anyone have any programming info for these? I'd accept a DOS driver; I'd love register docs so I could write Linux software. I've recently been assisting someone in Australia with his Commodore D9060 and D9090 drives. Being able to play with mine from a more modern machine might keep my interest up. His problems included a "helpful" tech who rearranged the PROMs on the OMTI 25011 board (SASI to ST-506 - does anyone have docs on _that_, especially the SASI command set it responds to?) and confusion about how a D9060 and D9090 differ (jumpers on the "DOS" board that tell the unit how many heads to expect). The good news on the D9060/D9090 front is that against all expectations, it appears that it's possible to install an ST225 and format it and it works. I never tried it myself because the Write Precomp numbers are different between a ST-255 and the Tandon TM602S that was the standard 4-head drive in the D9060. I even bought another TM602S at the recent Dayton Computerfest (at Hara Arena, like the Hamvention). It was only $3, but I didn't inspect it carefully. Some *cretin* cut ALL the wires coming out of the HDA that plugged into the circuit boards. I suppose I have a spare set of boards and a good set of platters if I ever care to break the seal and attempt to migrate the wires from a future dead drive to this one. :-( So in short, I'm looking for info on programming _my_ GPIB cards, the Nat'l Instruments 180210, on the OMTI 25011 which I plan to drive from said GPIB card, filtered through the DOS board of a C= D9060, and the DOS board of a D9060 (a disassembled ROM could save me lots of time doing it myself). Anyone with info? Thanks, -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 12 00:52:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.151233edt.119048@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3B9EF833.82433478@internet1.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > 1) I've seen many more referrals to large water tanks built > into skyscrapers > 2) it must be a nightmare to try and fight any kind of large > fire in those types of buildings > > As for the water tanks in the movie, if I remember correctly > they really didn't come into the story until towards the end and I > believe that Steve McQueen does end up rupturing them so that the > water spills down the building into the fire. Steve McQueen? Yup that is an old movie! I was thinking about it at work, I guess I do recall the water coming down the stairs in the movie. I guess the water in tanks does make sense. Being so tall, it is probably needed just to get water anywhere. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 12 01:05:07 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9EFB13.5E960FE5@internet1.net> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Fred I agree totally with this - people need to hold back on the anti-group > attitude until it's determined who actually did it. Definitely. > Also once it's determined we have to keep > from including people born in the US of the same background from being > persecuted, like the German and Japanese immigrants and natives of that > group were done 60 yrs ago. If you are referring to the Japanese being put into camps.... that is a decision that had to be made. The Japanese have/had a secret society called the Black Dragon that was working against the US. We had no idea who was in the Black Dragon, but we had to stop its impact. If your referring to a general paranoia or abuses of people of those groups who have been living here, then I understand completely. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Sep 12 01:08:28 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don wrote: [snip] > No, sorry, lean, effective, and cheap! Lean and effective, yes. Cheap? The hourly rate for 767 CPT time can run into the thousands, and before you could set foot in one you'd have to be a modestly accomplished turbine pilot -- otherwise the guys running the thing would bounce you out -- or have access to your own (you could probably train someone to fly the mission in maybe three hours if you had unrestricted access to the machine and didn't mind the risk of minor technical problems bringing the plane out of the sky somewhere other than on the target). Even with GPS leading you by the nose you'd still have to have enough training to get the thing from the land of 29.92 to sea level without overspeeding the pig, and both of the WTC strikes looked like competent hand-flying, both on tape and to buddies on the ground. Not millions, but not the ANFO leagues, either -- and given the strong sense of self-preservation shown by our home-grown terrorists, probably _not_ domestic in origin. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 12 01:30:04 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B9F00EC.9D93472@internet1.net> Here in Michigan everybody went to the pump, while I was at work, I heard... I'm on 2nd shift. I topped off my tank after work....only 3 gallons. I heard somone at one of the oil companies made a statement that they didn't know when there next shipment of oil was coming in, combined with everyone thinking that this attack is from the middle east. I have head of prices being as high a $4.00 per gallon, but heare in town it's about 2.00. Someone at work said they heard it was $11 in one place in Indiana..... I wouldn't buy it at that price. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > I don't know if it's a lack of supply or an excess of demand, but most of > the gas stations here have run out of gas to dispense. The few remaining > places have jacked their prices up over $4.00/gal. Prices here have been > hovering around $1.50/gal, which is already expensive by our local > standards. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 12 01:36:01 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <000001c13b28$8b889800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9F0251.A22AA900@internet1.net> Dick it's called the electoral college.... the popular vote doesn't directly decide the presidency. It has happened once before. Just because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't mean his brother was doing anything underhanded. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S, > yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated > henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway. > Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as > well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start of > his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he > purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of > approximately 2.2 Billion dollars. From wmsmith at earthlink.net Wed Sep 12 01:44:10 2001 From: wmsmith at earthlink.net (Wayne M. Smith) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <008501c13b56$549d3660$d626b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> > Like I said, this is a reckoning. > It is only a reckoning in the eyes of a select few -- such as those firing guns in the air in celebration of the many dead. There is no way that the taking of thousands of "innocent" lives balances out anything. Just as nothing will be resolved when we inevitably do the same in retaliation. From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 12 01:42:17 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <000001c13b33$cc84a320$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3B9F03C9.D93269B7@internet1.net> I didn't see it, but who cares if he doesn't phrase things the best.... he's probably shaken up quite a bit over it. Gouliani (spelling?) wasn't the most eloquent either. So what?? Even Arafat was stumbling over his words, granted, I have know idea how well he speaks English, but he seemed disturbed over it to me. I suppose he could be a pretty good actor, but since I am not in the intelligence community, I'll leave that to them to decide. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I can't agree with your logic or with the conclusions at which you arrive this > time. However, it's clear that you can, at least, turn a phrase much better > than our chief exec. > > Dick From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 12 01:44:44 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9F045C.D51BB7E3@internet1.net> Don Maslin wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > ABC was saying that the State Dept. car bomb or whatever, isn't > > accurate. Seems rather chaotic now. The Pennsylvania crash hasn't been > > detailed yet, unfortunately. > > > > > > I wonder if this is foreign or more of the McViegh homeboys? > > Obviously foreign. `McVeigh homeboys' are not inclined to offer up > their own lives in such efforts as are the `foreignboys'. > > - don > Yeah the suicide part didn't occur to me until later. Still you never know. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 11 12:25:53 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218 In-Reply-To: Paul Williams "Re: Pin compatibility of 2716, 8316, 9218" (Sep 11, 7:17) References: <3B9D3E03.C59F0A35@tinyworld.co.uk> <10109110107.ZM3259@unknown.zmail.host> <3B9DAC6A.2ADC4836@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <10109111825.ZM3886@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 11, 7:17, Paul Williams wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > > I'd be interested to know which VT100 ROMs you have > > The standard VT100 ROMs are 031 (or 061), 032, 033, and 034, but > > there are lots of variants. > > 061, 032, 033, 034, exactly as the FMPS says. > > > I have images (and original ROMs) of 061, 032, 033, 034 but I'd > > like to get any others to add to the archive. > > They're not online, Pete! No, they're not, because they're copyrighted. But I'll make them available to you. Aside: there was a short discussion a while ago about DEC and copyright and copies and what DEC still sold. I can't remember the conclusion. What was the concensus? And does DEC still sell these ROMs? > I would like a copy of those, please, because > there is a guy on comp.sys.dec who is planning a VT100 front-end to Bob > Supnik's SIMH (thread called "Need VT100 Expert"). I would also like a > copy of the chargen ROM, 23018E2-00, if you've got it. On mine (which is actually a VT131) it's soldered directly to the board, and I'm disinclined to take it off at the moment. > Would you like a copy of the VT320 ROM? I've got that handy. Yes please :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 12 02:30:01 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9EF833.82433478@internet1.net> References: <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.151233edt.119048@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: Such a shock. I watched coverage most of the morning, then had to get away from it and went to talk with some local fellow computer junk junkies. Damn, people are angry, angry like I remember during the hostage crisis in Iran. This is such an evil insane attack. Once the source is known, they will surely suffer as they never imagined possible, and their cause be trampled into bloody mud. The innocent will suffer, we will suffer, the whole world will be damaged by this. I am SURE I heard on the radio in the last week some bit about heightened security risk over the next 10 days. Intelligence knew something was happening. Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too effective, for other organizations not to try it again. If I understand what happened, someone smuggled a knife like object on to the plane, stabbed flight attendants and forced people to the back then told the pilot to fly to some airport near the target. Once the plane was within visual range of the target the pilot was removed, and the nutball just drives the plane into the building. What kind of security is going to protect against that kind of attack? I have a knife like object I use to open my mail, its called a CIA Letter opener, made of glass reinforced nylon it has no xray image, yet is strong enough to be pounded thru 5/8" plywood without breaking. Obviously much of what allowed this to happen was that it was the first time, and people thought they were being hijacked by some nut. My guess is that the forth plane was flown into the ground because the pilot knew about one of the earlier flights. Anyone else think this has a REAL good chance of tanking the world economy? Especially if more terrorist acts follow? Thats when war starts looking very likely. From terryc at woa.com.au Wed Sep 12 02:35:27 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9F103F.90E67E88@woa.com.au> Chris Kennedy wrote: > > Even with GPS leading you by the nose you'd still have to have > enough training to get the thing from the land of 29.92 to sea level > without overspeeding the pig, and both of the WTC strikes looked > like competent hand-flying, both on tape and to buddies on the > ground. I was wondering about the GPS overcoming any lack of Nav skills (reception in cockpit, etc). I know nothing about flying planes, other than flight sim, but the thing that struck me was that both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the straight line. How hard would hitting the side of the Pentagon be? (45 degree descent apparently). -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au Wombat Outdoor Adventures "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Wed Sep 12 02:26:56 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: A great loss, on topic... In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "A great loss, on topic..." (Sep 11, 21:42) References: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10109120826.ZM4587@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 11, 21:42, ajp166 wrote: > Today Tim Olmstead passed away from a battle with cancer. > A great loss. I'm very sorry to hear that. He was a nice guy and made a significant contribution to our hobby. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alan.pearson at cramer.com Wed Sep 12 03:19:51 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? Message-ID: > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill > > > > Great book, but definitely NOT as an introductory book. I'm not sure that it falls into either category... I bought it recently - it does start off assuming no prior knowledge, so from that point of view it's suitable for beginners. It does however get very "involved" quite early on... to me though this is a good thing, and I wouldn't hesistate in recommending the book to other beginners like myself as long as you're genuinely motiviated enough to want to learn - I had to re-read some sections several times before the mental light clicked on :-) The "eureka" moment in the bath when I finally understood how the NAND transistor circuit worked was too cool for words ;-) The writing style is very clear, they give "real world" examples, sample circuits (both good and bad, to illustrate common gotchas), and cover a huge range of topics. It's a MUST HAVE in my opinion. --al From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 12 03:45:51 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just a musing...what I don't get is what kind of people rejoice and celebrate over such a loss of life, regardless of how you might feel about the people involved? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From pjschilling at gcstech.net Wed Sep 12 05:36:48 2001 From: pjschilling at gcstech.net (Phil Schilling) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Tandy 1400 LT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike, There were a few before the 1400. The 100/102/200 for sure. There are many 100's and 102's still in use. I know a few journalists locally using them. Phil -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mike Ford Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:13 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Tandy 1400 LT I bought a Tandy 1400 portable today. Not bad shape, a bit of plastic damage in a couple places on the case, but it lights up and asks for a floppy and the battery doesn't even appear totally totally dead (only mostly dead). Is this the first Tandy laptop? Anybody interested before eBay? NEC 8088 4.77/7.00 MHz CPU (V-20) LCD Backlit CGA Display Panel Dual 3.5" 720k Disk Drives 640k RAM Serial/Parallel/CGA/TV Connectors From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1667.monmouth.com Wed Sep 12 06:21:56 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1667.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: from Russ Blakeman at "Sep 11, 2001 09:17:07 pm" Message-ID: <200109121121.f8CBLu815413@bg-tc-ppp1667.monmouth.com> > Wasn't WWOR transmitted off the antenna tower? I know WGN in Chicago is done > from the antenna array on the Sears Tower and I'm fairly sure that WWOR had > something in conncetion to the WTC > I'm not a TV engineering guy and it's been a long time since my college radio days but here's my less than educated guess. Many of the NY stations must have had alternate locations (IIRC many at their old the Empire State Building) in case of emergency and also because of the problem of the signal from the tower being blocked in some parts of the city. IIRC Many of the VHF channels also broadcast their signal on a second UHF channel shortly after the twin towers went up to get full coverage in Manhattan before the antennas moved to the towers -- so I assume that they had some kind of backup location or plan. Channels and 5 (Fox -- used to be WNEW Metromedia),9 (WWOR), 11(WPIX) went black for a while. It appears that the ABC, CBS and NBC affiliates switched quickly over to a backup set of antennas. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 07:55:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... References: Message-ID: <001001c13b8a$38dcbac0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, you're certainly safe from me. I didn't like the other CIC either. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:24 PM Subject: RE: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... > Well it appears that opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they > usually stink. I feel that Clinton would be better suited as a cotton farmer > in Mississippi and Gore a towel boy in a gay bath house and that GWB is well > educated and very clear spoken but you see it the other. Not a problem, > that's why we have freedom of speech in our country. We also have freedom of > religion which is why I choose atheism. We have freedom to bear arms which > is why I have a hefty gun collection (not necessarily for protection either) > and so on. > > We can each enjoy our own opinion and feel good about our military service, > but still feel that one or the other CIC is a dork without killing each > other. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 08:02:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... References: Message-ID: <001601c13b8b$386ac9a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Actually, the "whining" I was remembering was not from reservists so much as from certain active-duty ethnic groups. These groups had coalesced into a vociferous groups to attract the media, which they did. Their complaints, in at least one noteable case simply amounted to complaining they hadn't signed up to go somplace overseas to get shot-at, but only to be able to retire in luxury (at least above poverty-level) after only 20 years of doing very little useful work. I happened to catch that on an evening news broadcast at about 6 or 7 in the evening, as I drove home from work. Having put in some time in the military during the '60's, I was not favorably impressed. It doesn't surprise me when I hear that sort of thing about NG or reserve units being called up to do something, but when active duty types complain, which they did far and wide during the startup of the Gulf War, I am irritated. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:26 PM Subject: RE: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... > By the way the whining at the onset of thr Gulf ar was from reservists who > thought they'd never be deployed. I was there and know exactly who they had > going and their little spouses screaming how they were done wrong by GHB and > his bunch of idiots. Not disagreeing with you, just clarifying. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher > -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 7:22 PM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... > -> > -> > -> Now just a minute, there, mister! > -> > -> I remember the hue and cry at the outset of the Gulf War when > -> the nation's > -> military was represented on the air for the better part of a > -> week whining that > -> they hadn't signed up to go somplace overseas to get shot-at, > -> but only to be > -> able to retire in luxury (at least above poverty-level) after > -> only 20 years of > -> doing very little useful work. That's what attracts the sorts > -> that keep society > -> from viewing the military as an honorable profession. (The current pres' > -> brother Neil Bush went on trial on 1/15/91, the day the "Desert Shield" > -> operation started, BTW, and that was probably no coincidence.) > -> > -> My own experience in the military, where I spent several years > -> certainly taught > -> me that few groups could be singled out as having fewer > -> grey-cells per capita > -> than the military, though there were certainly SOME people in it > -> who weren't > -> total nit-wits. The only group I've ever seen collected that > -> has exhibited less > -> intellectual horsepower than what I observed in the military is > -> what's gathered > -> in Washington D.C, and particularly in the White House during the current > -> administration. > -> > -> The previous chief exec certainly was no beacon of honorability, but was > -> certainly smarter than what's in power now. At least he spoke > -> English well > -> enough so you could understand what he'd said. His English is > -> barely better > -> than his Spanish, and that isn't too good! > -> > -> I'm ashamed to admit that I once made it a blanket policy to vote for > -> Republicans, at least for state and local offices. Though I > -> haven't voted for a > -> Republican chief since the disappointing results I got from > -> Tricky Dicky, the > -> past election was the first one in which I actually voted for a > -> Democrat ... ANY > -> democrat. That was a vote against George II and largely because it's > -> embarassing to have the pres of Mexico speak better English than > -> our Pres. I > -> admit that back when Carter, Sadat, and Arafat were on the tube, > -> it wasn't our > -> chief who spoke the most elegant English either, though at least > -> he could put > -> together a coherent subject and predicate. Now that he writes > -> some of his own > -> stuff it's improved greatly. > -> > -> The reason the military is weak is not because it has too little > -> in resources, > -> but because it's too corrupt, but not only from the top down, which is > -> dishonest, for sure, but from the bottom up as well. That's > -> because the entire > -> premise of "sit around for 20 years, keep your head down, and > -> retire ..." is > -> corrupt. It wasn't always like that, but somewhere, between the > -> 60's and the > -> mid-70's ... Throwing more money at that mess won't fix a thing, > -> and that's all > -> those yokels in 'D.C. know how to do. > -> > -> Dick > -> > -> ----- Original Message ----- > -> From: "Russ Blakeman" > -> To: > -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:00 PM > -> Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash updates... > -> > -> > -> > I actually would say that Uncle (horndog) Billie and his > -> sidekick Algore > -> > screwed up our defense system so badly that much of the > -> systems we used to > -> > have that could have possibly detected this (if it could have > -> been at all) > -> > and the loyalty to the US military weere gone and today, along with the > -> > swift and intelligent actions of our new CIC, will serve to bring the > -> > military back to some sense of loyalty and intelligence. Much > -> of the reason > -> > I opted for nearly a year early retirement was the state of > -> the military and > -> > our CIC at the time (95). > -> > > -> > -> -----Original Message----- > -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez > -> > -> Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:56 AM > -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> > -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash updates... > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> > -> Sellam Ismail wrote: > -> > -> > All I have to say is that this country has finally done > -> itself in with > -> > -> > it's arrogance. > -> > -> > -> > -> I disagree. Any terrorist acts are the responsibility of the > -> > -> terrorists. Even if someone doesn't like what the US does > -> or is, it is > -> > -> still there decision to do acts of terrorism. It is not > -> our fault for > -> > -> making people do acts of terrorism. > -> > -> > -> > -> > I fear this will plunge the world into war. > -> > -> > -> > -> I could see a very targeted attack against whoever the responsible > -> > -> parties are, like when we went into Panama or Libya. > -> > -> > -> > -> Chad Fernandez > -> > -> Michigan, USA > -> > -> > -> > > -> > > -> > -> > > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Sep 12 07:07:27 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <3B9EF833.82433478@internet1.net> <3.0.2.32.20010911110247.011d80f4@obregon.multi.net.co> <3B9E3ED6.F27278C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.133221edt.119043@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> <3B9E5465.D97A6C8@internet1.net> <01Sep11.151233edt.119048@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010912080727.01cfea20@obregon.multi.net.co> At 12:30 AM 9/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >Anyone else think this has a REAL good chance of tanking the world economy? >Especially if more terrorist acts follow? Thats when war starts looking >very likely. Big slowdown. But not tanking it. I think that some bubbles will burst (i.e., stuff that isn't there now but which investors thought that would be there in the future). But this did not affect any key, real production resource. And the US dollar is not in much danger either. So we're just facing a big "correction". As for the recurrence of such attacks, I think that it is unlikely. The lax security at most US airports will experience a quantum leap tomorrow. But expect extremely long delays. Carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 08:08:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010911221027.033daaf0@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <002001c13b8c$075a4060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Keep in mind, Arthur, that you can't have it both ways. You've got to choose between security and freedom. I think what Sellam is driving at is that every externally imposed effort to ensure your security impairs someone's freedoms. Perhaps we don't all see it that way, but it could be argued. Nonetheless, I don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on luggage to make sure I don't have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a reasonable infringement, partiticularly since I've effectively agreed to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of the contract associated with air travel. I'm sure the "essential liberty" to which Ben was referring didn't include the liberty to be irresponsible or selfish to the extent that it risks social order and encourages terrorists by overtly hiding them in our midst. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arthur E. Clark" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:46 PM Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers > At 08:37 PM 9/11/2001 -0400, you wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > > "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary > > > > safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin > > > > > > Thank you, Sellam > > > > > > Those who would destroy the country in the name of protecting it are a > > > bigger enemy than those who attacked this morning. > > > > > > -- > > > Grumpy Ol' Fred > > Yes. That is the other threat posed by the events of today. Some in our > society, the reactionary elements in the federal law enforcement and > "national security" agencies, will no doubt try to use these events as an > excuse to further gut civil liberties which have already been nearly > eviscerated by the miserable failure known as the "War on Drugs." The > congressional reaction to the Oklahoma City bombing of the Murrah federal > building produced new federal laws greatly expanding the power of the FBI > and other federal law enforcement agencies to surveil and infiltrate > organizations they wish to investigate, even if the organization in > question cannot be connected with criminal activity. The same opportunists > who capitalized on that tragedy will not doubt try to do the same with this > one. Unfortunately, they will probably succeed. > > > >The only way to avoid events like this is to increase security at > >airports -- which often is lax in this country... I've heard > >of real security at airlines like El Al which does a serious > >baggage and weapons check. > > It's sad. At the height of the late 80s wave of terrorist airliner > bombings, I went to the UK on a high school trip. The security at JFK was > a joke. The person tending the x-ray machine wasn't even looking at the > screen half of the time. Gate and checkpoint security were not much > better. In contrast, in Ireland on the trip home to the US, two guards > were glued to the x-ray machine monitor, everyone's passports were > individually checked, and every one of us was questioned extensively before > we were permitted to through _two_ metal detectors. After that we got to > go to another checkpoint to get our tickets back so that we could go to the > gate to then have our tickets checked against our passports. _That_ is > real security. > > > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Sep 12 08:10:19 2001 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > effective, for other organizations not to try > it again. I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. I think that, after this, any able bodied person on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. I know that I would, rather than die as part of an instrument used to kill many more. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 08:33:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While it's not ruled out that this is a middle-eastern style act, it's just as likely it's a homeboy act. Don's assertion that our home-grown terrorists don't as easily give up their own lives as do the middle-eastern or Asian types is quite correct. However, the middle-eastern model involves boastful claims of responsibility, without which the act is meaningless in the context of their struggle. The only middle-eastern group that's done "big" things like this, incorporating suicide, in recent years has been the one associated with Usama bin Ladin, or whatever his name is, and they've been unacompanied by claims of "we did it" in the past. That's why everyone involved seems to like this guy for the role of #1 suspect, and tat's why we should not rush to judgment. It could turn out that the WTC attacks were done by anti-globalization fanatics from God-knows-where, while the Pentagon attack was done by someone unrelated. We just don't have facts. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:44 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > I wonder if this is foreign or more of the McViegh homeboys? > > Obviously foreign. `McVeigh homeboys' are not inclined to offer up > their own lives in such efforts as are the `foreignboys'. > > - don > > Chad > > > > LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas my heart and > > > prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast there have been 4 > > > attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, and the state > > > dept bldg in washington. > > > > > > -Linc Fessenden > > > > > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > > > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 08:40:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... References: <3B8353C4000012A3@obregon.multi.net.co> <5.0.0.25.2.20010911214326.02465880@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <004601c13b90$702225a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... > At 09:19 PM 9/11/01 -0700, Don wrote: > >happen - as they did. Millions? More likely a hundres thousand or so. > > Don, you forget forged passports, training, installing and coordinating > agents etc. This is definitely a big operation. > Forged passports aren't needed for domestic flights, which is what these were. Based on Don's estimate of a couple of dozen people, a couple of dozen thousands are all that's needed, to get the people there and buy them their tickets. It's unlikely that you'd find many Americans, no matter how fanatic, that would get on a plane with the intention of crashing the thing into something, though, and forget the training. OTOH, the only bunch that has, in the past, done anything so extreme without a claim of credit would be the U.S.-grown types. It doesn't have to be a big operation, though, and, based on the assessment that the one plane that crashed in Pennsylvania was a hijacking gone sour, the traning and planning wasn't that perfect, either. > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 08:53:14 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers References: Message-ID: <004c01c13b92$451bd340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm not sure that the congress had much to do with the spec's for that militarized microVax-II that was under development in the '80's. I worked, for a time, on the "all-source-analysis system" project, which was a congressionally mandated project run by JPL in Pasadena, in which they took the microVax (originally an Apple-II) and used it to present intelligence information for analysis. The project grew and grew, and, by JPL's direction, became more and more convoluted and costly, because the JPL guys had no clue about how to manage costs, never having had to work on things that were intended to be produced in multiples. There may have been other similar projects, but the one with which I'm acquainted used the microVAX-II in a militarized enclosure that allowed the computer to enjoy a commercial environment inside, while exposed to a military environment outside. It used a fiber-based redundant clone of ethernet, which didn't work well, initially, with DEC's idea of what ethernet was, and it used a really nice (I liked the "8x10-glossy" look of the CRT) high-resolution graphics display rather than an Apple-II display, along with initially ESDI and later SCSI (much faster and cheaper) 5-1/4" hard drives. Moreover, instead of the TK-50's, it was intended to use WORM drives, which was never realized because the industry wasn't far enough along. Except for the fact that it was a set of congressionally mandated busy work for the JPL guys, this might have been a useful project, but with all the politics and corruption at the JPL (the managing agency) end, it was doomed from the start. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:57 PM Subject: Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Bill Pechter wrote: > > > I really don't think I'm a great fan of either President Bush or > > former President Clinton, but I really feel that the military and > > intelligence community have not done enough to get ready for the > > new non-traditional methods of conflict and we're headed for more of > > this. > > > > I've worked out of Fort Monmouth for DEC and other organizations and I > > know the bureacracy there has kept the military from using the > > commercially available technologies effectively. > > > > The US military is way too wedded to the old mil-spec way of > > doing things. Wired had a good article showing that they're beginning to > > hire consultants to adjust their method of doing business. > > > > They used to draw up specs for things they needed which caused their > > costs to be hire than off-the-shelf technology would have been. > > Building custom limited production devices is expensive. > > Luckily they cancelled their MCF Military Computer Family project > > which was building a Vax work-alike computer in the mid-80's > > when the MicrovaxII became available off the shelf. > > I think that you need to explore whether it is the military or the > Congress that created and fostered the Mil-Spec and contractual wickets > that are finally being whittled down. No argument, however, that it > was/is costly and unproductive. > - don > > > They're beginning to adapt. I hope it will allow us to avoid losing our > > freedoms to have the security all folks want and deserve. > > > > Bill > > -- > > d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! > > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 08:56:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3B9F00EC.9D93472@internet1.net> Message-ID: <005e01c13b92$b8c58160$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The lines at the pumps were really long here in Denver last evening. I heard about one already-closed CONOCO station having a posted price of $4.499 on its signs. Fortunately, I was able to top off at $1.59. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Here in Michigan everybody went to the pump, while I was at work, I > heard... I'm on 2nd shift. I topped off my tank after work....only 3 > gallons. I heard somone at one of the oil companies made a statement > that they didn't know when there next shipment of oil was coming in, > combined with everyone thinking that this attack is from the middle > east. > > I have head of prices being as high a $4.00 per gallon, but heare in > town it's about 2.00. > > Someone at work said they heard it was $11 in one place in Indiana..... > I wouldn't buy it at that price. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > I don't know if it's a lack of supply or an excess of demand, but most of > > the gas stations here have run out of gas to dispense. The few remaining > > places have jacked their prices up over $4.00/gal. Prices here have been > > hovering around $1.50/gal, which is already expensive by our local > > standards. > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@subatomix.com > > From jss at subatomix.com Wed Sep 12 08:58:02 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911214326.02465880@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Don, you forget [...] training I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big commercial jet overnight. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From chomko at greenbelt.com Wed Sep 12 09:01:24 2001 From: chomko at greenbelt.com (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9F6AB4.E440516F@greenbelt.com> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > > effective, for other organizations not to try > > it again. > > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. > I think that, after this, any able bodied person > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. > I know that I would, rather than die as part of > an instrument used to kill many more. Yes, in the old days when a hijacker flew into Cuba all the people survived and resistance was not deemed to be useful. Now, that has all changed. Eric From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 09:00:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <000001c13b28$8b889800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9F0251.A22AA900@internet1.net> Message-ID: <006401c13b93$3d08c220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't know how it was when you went to high school, but when I went, we all had a required course in "civics" which had nothing to do with HONDA engines, but, rather, dealt with the practices and structures of our own governments. Being a naturalized citizen, I had to learn this stuff twice, since it was also on the exams for citizenship. It's true that "Just because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't mean his brother was doing anything underhanded." However, the fact that he's a Bush suggests that he could hardly have been doing anything else. It's in their DNA, doncha know. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:36 AM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > Dick it's called the electoral college.... the popular vote doesn't > directly decide the presidency. It has happened once before. Just > because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't mean his brother > was doing anything underhanded. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I didn't vote for Dubya either, nor did a majority of the voters in the U.S, > > yet, presumably in part by the corrupt influence of his brother and associated > > henchment, and partly by quirk of circumstance, he's the chief exec anyway. > > Keep in mind that his daddy, George I, did things that were questionable as > > well, e.g. starting the "Desert Shield" operation concurrently with the start of > > his son Neil's trial for financial fraud here in Colorado, in which he > > purportedly bilked savers and, eventually, the U.S. government out of > > approximately 2.2 Billion dollars. > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 09:13:38 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <008a01c13b95$1eacede0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Unfortunately, I think you're mistaken here, Bill. The typical American of today hasn't the courage to risk his life as an individual, even if it means being slaughtered as part of a group. That same American hasn't the courage to call the cops if he sees someone breaking into his neighbor's house or car, because he fears being singled out as an honest individual, rather than part of the corrupt masses. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... > > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > > effective, for other organizations not to try > > it again. > > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. > I think that, after this, any able bodied person > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. > I know that I would, rather than die as part of > an instrument used to kill many more. > > From terryc at woa.com.au Wed Sep 12 09:46:48 2001 From: terryc at woa.com.au (Terry Collins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... References: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3B9F7558.CD49211B@woa.com.au> "Jeffrey S. Sharp" wrote: > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > Don, you forget [...] training > > I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big > commercial jet overnight. Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over) and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much training would someone with light aircraft skills need? -- Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861 email: terryc@woa.com.au www: http://www.woa.com.au Wombat Outdoor Adventures "People without trees are like fish without clean water" From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Sep 12 09:51:56 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:28 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F00EC.9D93472@internet1.net> References: <20010911154016.T34075-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <3B9F00EC.9D93472@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010912095156.W23360@mrbill.net> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 02:30:04AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Here in Michigan everybody went to the pump, while I was at work, I > heard... I'm on 2nd shift. I topped off my tank after work....only 3 > gallons. I heard somone at one of the oil companies made a statement > that they didn't know when there next shipment of oil was coming in, > combined with everyone thinking that this attack is from the middle > east. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/12/gas.prices/ Plenty of gas, no shortage, no need for higher prices - you're just seeing gouging by the gas stations. Still $1.34 here in Austin this morning. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From David.Neal at ubsw.com Wed Sep 12 09:55:32 2001 From: David.Neal at ubsw.com (David.Neal@ubsw.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... Message-ID: $20 worth of flight sim should be enough for the job. -----Original Message----- From: jss Sent: 12 September 2001 14:58 To: classiccmp Cc: jss Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Don, you forget [...] training I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big commercial jet overnight. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com Visit our website at http://www.ubswarburg.com This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. This message is provided for informational purposes and should not be construed as a solicitation or offer to buy or sell any securities or related financial instruments. From marino13 at btopenworld.com Wed Sep 12 09:58:58 2001 From: marino13 at btopenworld.com (marino13@btopenworld.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> I have to say that I agree with the original part of this - I have been discussing this with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're not involved) that I would definately take the risk... the chances are you're gonna die anyway. If the plane was on the ground or part of a "hostage scenario" thats different but I am surprised not one person would have tried anything. But who knows... perhaps they did. Just my thoughts. > Unfortunately, I think you're mistaken here, Bill. The typical American of > today hasn't the courage to risk his life as an individual, even if it means > being slaughtered as part of a group. That same American hasn't the courage to > call the cops if he sees someone breaking into his neighbor's house or car, > because he fears being singled out as an honest individual, rather than part of > the corrupt masses. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bill Sudbrink" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM > Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... > > > > > > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > > > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > > > effective, for other organizations not to try > > > it again. > > > > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that > > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. > > I think that, after this, any able bodied person > > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. > > I know that I would, rather than die as part of > > an instrument used to kill many more. > > > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Wed Sep 12 10:15:59 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010910103549.02721800@mcmanis.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010912111559.0160a730@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Chuck McManis may have mentioned these words: >The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill > >He will have to read it a couple of times but damn if it isn't the best one. >--Chuck > >At 06:44 AM 9/10/01, you wrote: >>I'd like to get some recommendations from the list for a good introductory >>electronics book for my 14 year-old son. He's interested in building an >>intercom system (and other circuits) that he got off the Web, and I would >>like something for him to read that will give him a good understanding of >>how the circuit works. (For example, it uses the primary windings of a >>120V:12V transformer as a coil.) TIA. Dunno if I'm late on this thread, but IMHO, some of the better *very* introductory books, that are very well written, easy to understand & grow with you can find at your local Radio Shack. The books written by Forrest Mims III are outstanding, and that's where I learned a healthy chunk of what I know about electronics. Granted, that's one of very few things that are still useful at the Shack, but at least they keep those good books in print. (and they have a *lot* of useful but simple circuits in them, too!) HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1449.monmouth.com Wed Sep 12 10:18:37 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1449.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Military Computer Family (MCF) In-Reply-To: <004c01c13b92$451bd340$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Sep 12, 2001 07:53:14 am" Message-ID: <200109121518.f8CFIbi16243@bg-tc-ppp1449.monmouth.com> > I'm not sure that the congress had much to do with the spec's for that > militarized microVax ... > > Dick Actually, it was for a family of Mil-Spec'd computers which were pretty much Vax-like to run ADA and the Ada Language System for the military rather than a ruggedized Microvax. GE, RCA, and Raytheon, IIRC, were designing and implementing special silicon to allow the military to have their own computer architecture which would be required for future projects. Of course, DEC's release of the 78032 chip pretty much rendered this obsolete and the competing architectures dried up and the funding went away as Raytheon did the ruggedized Vaxes for the Patriot control systems and as GE and RCA eventually became one company and the RCA Solid State development stuff in Somerset, NJ went I don't know where. I couldn't figure why they didn't look at the Z8000 and 68020 and NS16032 (later 32016 and 32032) architectures which were solidifying at about the same time -- except these were government plans pushed by what Eisenhower called the "Military-Industrial Complex" and would've given the government folks jobs for years overseeing production, availability and multiple sourceing the silicon for the soon-to-be dead Ada Language System from SofTech (which is another horror story I witnessed part of at Fort Monmouth>. (classiccmp tie in: yes it was the same SofTech that purchased UCSD pascal...) Bill I found a couple of interstings hit on the google search for this: http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usassi/ssipubs/pubs98/evlutech/evlutech.pdf Mentions the Military Computer Family platform was a 15 year old project that they abandoned in 1984. http://www.ece.utexas.edu/~perry/work/pre83bib.html From jss at subatomix.com Wed Sep 12 10:20:40 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F103F.90E67E88@woa.com.au> Message-ID: <20010912091524.Q34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote: > > both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher > than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the > straight line. They were most likely flying the planes by hand. A perfectly straight line can indeed be quite difficult to fly; corrections need to be made. In the second WTC crash, for instance, you see the plane banking left at the last minute and notice later that, while it dealt a most damaging blow, it was a little right of center. The pilot was trying to make a correction. > How hard would hitting the side of the Pentagon be? (45 degree descent > apparently). Harder than you think, even assuming a total lack of target defense capabilities. Airplanes can't or won't always go exactly where you point them. In a single-engine prop plane, for instance, gyroscopic precession of the prop gives the plane an affinity for turning left. Other kinds of planes have other issues. Vertical movement has complications resulting from changing airspeed. If you put the nose of a plane into even a slight dive, airspeed will increase *quickly*. You've got to arrange some way of decreasing airspeed (throttling down the engines, extending the flaps, etc.), or else the plane will soon begin to break apart. A 45-degree angle seems horribly steep. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Sep 12 10:32:51 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1>; from marino13@btopenworld.com on Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 03:58:58PM +0100 References: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <20010912103251.B1455687@uiuc.edu> The problem is, a lot of planes that are hijaked in the the air are being diverted for an "on the ground, they'll let us go after they get to iraq (or wherever" type scenario. This is probably what the passengers thought was going on (in which case it would be better to just cooperate and wait till they let you go), until it was too late... In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the whole point was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea? marino13@btopenworld.com said: > I have to say that I agree with the original > part of this - I have been discussing this > with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and > yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're > not involved) that I would definately take > the risk... the chances are you're gonna die > anyway. If the plane was on the ground or > part of a "hostage scenario" thats different > but I am surprised not one person would have > tried anything. But who knows... perhaps they > did. > > Just my thoughts. > > > > Unfortunately, I think you're mistaken here, Bill. The typical American of > > today hasn't the courage to risk his life as an individual, even if it means > > being slaughtered as part of a group. That same American hasn't the courage to > > call the cops if he sees someone breaking into his neighbor's house or car, > > because he fears being singled out as an honest individual, rather than part of > > the corrupt masses. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bill Sudbrink" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM > > Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... > > > > > > > > > > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > > > > > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > > > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > > > > effective, for other organizations not to try > > > > it again. > > > > > > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that > > > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. > > > I think that, after this, any able bodied person > > > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. > > > I know that I would, rather than die as part of > > > an instrument used to kill many more. > > > > > > > > - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 12 10:49:44 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: You be it's OT: World Trade crash updates... In-Reply-To: from Russ Blakeman at "Sep 11, 2001 09:24:01 pm" Message-ID: <200109121549.IAA27215@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...] > Well it appears that opinions are like assholes - everyone has one and they > usually stink. Your certainly does. Now take this inappropriate spleen venting somewhere else. Eric From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Sep 12 10:59:06 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3B9F85C9.2BEF0562@eoni.com> Latest news reports that three passengers on the flight that ended up in Pennsylvania mentioned "doing something" about the situation. Might be why it ended up a smoking hole in a rural area rather than at its undetermined destination. (News says Camp David, I believe that the White House/Congress a more likely target.) Jim marino13@btopenworld.com wrote: > > I have to say that I agree with the original > part of this - I have been discussing this > with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and > yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're > not involved) that I would definately take > the risk... the chances are you're gonna die > anyway. If the plane was on the ground or > part of a "hostage scenario" thats different > but I am surprised not one person would have > tried anything. But who knows... perhaps they > did. From george at racsys.rt.rain.com Wed Sep 12 10:54:21 2001 From: george at racsys.rt.rain.com (George Leo Rachor Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Need test leads for Biomation K105-D Logic analyzer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Well... It is on topic because I intend to use this beast to support my older classic computers. I reciently obtained a Gould/Biomation Logic Analyzer. While it did have probes it didn't have any software or manuals. The other item that it didn't come with is the little connector containing the grabber wires at the very end of the probes. I'm hoping these kind of items are more common then the probes themselves. Anyone have a line on where I might be able to find these critters? Thanks, George Rachor ========================================================= George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Sep 12 11:18:36 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F7558.CD49211B@woa.com.au> References: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010912091432.02adbe00@209.185.79.193> At 12:46 AM 9/13/01 +1000, Terry wrote: >Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over) >and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much >training would someone with light aircraft skills need? Ok, for the morbidly fascinated folks of the world, MS FlightSimulator comes with 737 aircraft models, (there are 757 and 767 models on the web) it also comes with a manhattan database replete with trade towers. So try it yourself. Flying a large jet at high speed, the thing takes a mile and a half to make a "tight" turn. The WTC is only just wider than the aircraft. So my thoughts are to hit "any" building - pretty straightforward for someone who knows the basics of how an airplane flys to hit a "specific" building from a specific angle That is darn difficult --Chuck From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Sep 12 11:25:27 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225721@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Keep in mind, Arthur, that you can't have it both ways. You've got to choose > between security and freedom. I think what Sellam is driving at is that every > externally imposed effort to ensure your security impairs someone's freedoms. > Perhaps we don't all see it that way, but it could be argued. Nonetheless, I > don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on luggage to make sure I don't > have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a reasonable infringement, partiticularly > since I've effectively agreed to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of > the contract associated with air travel. This will certainly lead to fewer men packing women's underwear in their suitcases, not to mention various flesh-tone plastic toys... Should anyone else care to enumerate the "legal things I'd hate to get caught with in my suitcase", please reply privately... -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Sep 12 11:32:17 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225722@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Like I said, this is a reckoning. > > > It is only a reckoning in the eyes of a select few -- such > as those firing guns in the air in celebration of the many > dead. There is no way that the taking of thousands of > "innocent" lives balances out anything. Just as nothing > will be resolved when we inevitably do the same in > retaliation. I think the point he was trying to make regarding reckoning is that America's foreign policy doesn't take into account (or does a poor job of doing so) the reactions of various peoples who think of themselves as disaffected. So, our nation throws it weight around long enough, and eventually, push comes to shove. I had expected something like this for a long time; the recent economic good-times had lulled me into a false sense of security (things are great all over, no?)... It's not about whether they are justfied (in reality) or not, but how they feel about their situation. They feel put-upon, and they hold us partly (w/r/t Palestinians) or totally (Iraq) to blame. Should we therefore have a foreign policy that is doomed to forever "walk on eggshells"? No; but status quo clearly isn't working. -dq From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 11:34:42 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <008501c13b56$549d3660$d626b3d1@Smith.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Wayne M. Smith wrote: > > Like I said, this is a reckoning. > > > It is only a reckoning in the eyes of a select few -- such > as those firing guns in the air in celebration of the many > dead. There is no way that the taking of thousands of > "innocent" lives balances out anything. Just as nothing > will be resolved when we inevitably do the same in > retaliation. I'll try to make this my last comment on this. Wayne, and everyone else: When I say this is a "reckoning", I do not mean it is "revenge" or "payback" or any other similar synonym. I do not mean we deserved it, I do not mean we had it coming. What happened yesterday should never happen to anyone, anywhere. What I mean exclusively is that what happened yesterday is a direct result of US foreign policy. When the US bombs other nations in the name of security, in the name of peace, or in the name of NATO, or in the name of the UN, we call it justified. When we get bombed, we call it an act of war. This is hypocrisy. The people of this nation must send a clear and strong signal to our "leaders" that they are putting us all in peril due to their questionable and objectionable policies that have invited this attack. If you are angry, contact your local leaders and ask them to account for why we were attacked yesterday in such an egregious fashion. Put pressure on them to in turn put pressure at the top eschelons of leadership to hold them accountable for the atmosphere that has been created to have invoked yesterday's attack. The only reactions I saw from our "leaders" last night will only invite more such attacks in the future, hence the cycle will continue, and we'll all be doomed for sure. If we continue on the same path, we will always live in fear. I'm sorry if I offended anyone but it was not my intention. Like everyone else, I was in shock and disbelief at what happened yesterday. I was horrified. I am a natural born citizen of this country. This is my home. I am an American. I was attacked too. I am trying to point out the truth of the matter. I welcome your response or criticisms, but please send them to me PRIVATELY. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 11:37:47 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F103F.90E67E88@woa.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote: > I know nothing about flying planes, other than flight sim, but the > thing that struck me was that both planes were turning a circle into > the towers (one wing higher than other) and I would consider that much > harder than follow the straight line. How hard would hitting the side > of the Pentagon be? (45 degree descent apparently). Maybe they knew full well that slamming into the building at an angle would cause more damaged across more floors... The people flying those planes knew what they were doing. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ernestls at home.com Wed Sep 12 11:46:22 2001 From: ernestls at home.com (Ernest) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Secure cockpit doors? In-Reply-To: <008a01c13b95$1eacede0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... > > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > > effective, for other organizations not to try > > it again. > > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. > I think that, after this, any able bodied person > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. > I know that I would, rather than die as part of > an instrument used to kill many more. It seem logical that, after seeing what a hijacker COULD do, the airlines will install secure doors to the cockpit. The idea being that if a hijacker takes the plane, the most he can do is either blow up the plane, or command the pilots to fly to a certain destination but they would not be able to get into the cockpit themselves. This would be expensive, and it would take time but I think that they should consider it. This would be emotionally hard for the pilots because certainly the hijacker would threaten to kill passengers if the cockpit door isn't opened but all things considered, I'm sure that the pilots and passengers would rather see the plane go down than see a repeat of yesterday's tragedy. It seems more likely that a few people would be injured but the damage would be contained if the cockpit doors are secured. Also, the news reports indicate that the hijackers had knives. Knife wounds are not as physically tramatic, nor as fatal as gun shot wounds so I would assume that people would attack the hijackers if they started to cut people. Bombs and guns are not easy to smuggle onto a plane these days so it seems logical that hijackers would have to resort to other weapons, like clubs or knives, etc.. After what happened yesterday, I basically agree that flight hijacking will cease to be effective. That doesn't mean that terrorists won't continue to blow them up, etc. -they still like to kill and destroy after all but it will be much more difficult for organized terrorist groups to think of an airplane as a tool of mass destruction. E. From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 11:53:09 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Need test leads for Biomation K105-D Logic analyzer References: Message-ID: <001d01c13bab$66ef74e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A lot of these are made by Pomona, though I haven't many of them myself. I don't recogninze the trademark on the ones that I use with my TEK logic analyzer, and you may require a finer pitch anyway. The ones that I got with my TEK 1240 come in two sizes: large and larger, and, while they work on pin-pitch of, say, 0.050", today's 0.020 pin-pitch devices make it hard to work with those clips. There are some little parts called "EZ-Hooks" which are useable with the old 0.10" through-hole devices that are pretty available. I've found that these things range from $0.40 to $1.50, depending on where you find them and how many you buy. The ones from Pomona are probably about the best, though most are pretty indistinguishable. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Leo Rachor Jr." To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: Need test leads for Biomation K105-D Logic analyzer > Well... It is on topic because I intend to use this beast to support my > older classic computers. > > I reciently obtained a Gould/Biomation Logic Analyzer. While it did have > probes it didn't have any software or manuals. > > The other item that it didn't come with is the little connector containing > the grabber wires at the very end of the probes. I'm hoping these kind of > items are more common then the probes themselves. > > Anyone have a line on where I might be able to find these critters? > > Thanks, > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 11:51:25 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010912080727.01cfea20@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > Big slowdown. But not tanking it. I think that some bubbles will > burst (i.e., stuff that isn't there now but which investors thought > that would be there in the future). But this did not affect any key, > real production resource. And the US dollar is not in much danger > either. So we're just facing a big "correction". The WTC was not a key and real production resource? The WTC WAS our economy (in a most abstract sense). > As for the recurrence of such attacks, I think that it is unlikely. > The lax security at most US airports will experience a quantum leap > tomorrow. But expect extremely long delays. I for one am holding my breath. This may just be a precursor to something far more sinister to come. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 11:56:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Need test leads for Biomation K105-D Logic analyzer References: Message-ID: <002101c13bab$e9551c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> BTW ... probably the least expensive way to get the Pomona version of these "EZ-hooks" is to buy their "SMD GRABBER PATCH CORD" set, part number 5521. That provides color coded wires with an EZ-hook at each end. You can cut those in half and put whatever the appropriate termination for the LA-probe end is at the open end. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "George Leo Rachor Jr." To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:54 AM Subject: Need test leads for Biomation K105-D Logic analyzer > Well... It is on topic because I intend to use this beast to support my > older classic computers. > > I reciently obtained a Gould/Biomation Logic Analyzer. While it did have > probes it didn't have any software or manuals. > > The other item that it didn't come with is the little connector containing > the grabber wires at the very end of the probes. I'm hoping these kind of > items are more common then the probes themselves. > > Anyone have a line on where I might be able to find these critters? > > Thanks, > > George Rachor > > ========================================================= > George L. Rachor Jr. george@rachors.com > Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com > United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX > > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 12:08:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: <002001c13b8c$075a4060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > Keep in mind, Arthur, that you can't have it both ways. You've got to > choose between security and freedom. I think what Sellam is driving > at is that every externally imposed effort to ensure your security > impairs someone's freedoms. What I'm saying is that every time something like this happens, we react by putting more security in place, while we continue with the policies that created the atmosphere that made yesterday's attacks possible. If this keeps up, one day we won't be able to go anywhere without a security agent tracking our every move and listening to our every word. Is that the solution you want? I would much prefer that the US "leadership" perform that role (i.e. lead) appropriately by re-evaluating the policies that would make us so hated that some group would carry out an attack such as yesterday's. You can throw all the security you want at it. It still won't stop people from wanting to bring harm to the US and it's people. > Perhaps we don't all see it that way, but it could be argued. > Nonetheless, I don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on > luggage to make sure I don't have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a > reasonable infringement, partiticularly since I've effectively agreed > to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of the contract > associated with air travel. I don't think it is a reasonable infringement either, but when they start checking up my ass everytime I want to get on a plane, then I'll just stay home. > I'm sure the "essential liberty" to which Ben was referring didn't > include the liberty to be irresponsible or selfish to the extent that > it risks social order and encourages terrorists by overtly hiding them > in our midst. Of course not, but it gets at another fundamental truth, which is that you cannot solve the problem by hiding it under a bandage. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 12:16:01 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 marino13@btopenworld.com wrote: > I have to say that I agree with the original part of this - I have > been discussing this with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and > yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're not involved) that I > would definately take the risk... the chances are you're gonna die > anyway. If the plane was on the ground or part of a "hostage scenario" > thats different but I am surprised not one person would have tried > anything. But who knows... perhaps they did. When you have a cross-country 8am flight, that means you probably got up pretty early that morning (maybe 5:30am), got showered and dressed, got your stuff together and rushed to the airport, still in a haze. You then got on the plane, put your bags up, maybe kicked off your shoes, and settled in for a long flight. All of a sudden, you're awoken by a bunch of maniacs who are thrusting knives at you and forcing you to the back of the plane. Within 15 minutes you are slamming into the side of a highrise building. Give these people some credit. They didn't have much time to react, let alone assess just what the heck was going on. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 12:22:13 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010912103251.B1455687@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > The problem is, a lot of planes that are hijaked in the the air are > being diverted for an "on the ground, they'll let us go after they get > to iraq (or wherever" type scenario. This is probably what the > passengers thought was going on (in which case it would be better to > just cooperate and wait till they let you go), until it was too > late... For the record, I doubt anyone would be hijacking a plane with the intent of flying it to Iraq. That would be pretty pointless :) > In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the > whole point was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather > then to take the plane somewhere other then the intended destination; > hijackings do take place all the time in other parts of the world, > though, so it might happen and I just don't know about it. Anyone > else have any idea? This is pretty unprecedented, and heralds a new type of terrorism that's even more evil and sinister than anything seen before. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 12:25:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225722@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <003b01c13baf$e3d09da0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One problem is that, like the French, the U.S. is always sticking its fingers where they don't belong. It's one thing for them to offer to help someone, but to offer that and then say, "We'll help you do it OUR way, but otherwise, to hell with you ..." creates ill will. Likewise, when our missionaries go to countries where there's an established religion, and, in some cases, a STATE religion, and then try to sell their own bill of goods, it doesn't make folks like to accept U.S. aid. If our way of doing things were so much better than that of other cultures, we wouldn't have to give it the hard sell. People would flock to us to find out how we do it. That's not happening. True, Mexicans are coming here to get our dollars, and, true, their president wants us to let them, so they can ship the dollars back to Mexico where they can use 'em without the strings attached that come with government aid. I've only talked to a very few Palestinians, but I can tell you for sure that they agree on one thing. That's that the land they once called Palestine was stolen from them by the winners after WW-II and simply given to a competing cultural group, who then began to bully and exploit them. Now, I'm not sure what really happened, but it's clear that this group sees things that way. The U.S. had interests to defend in the middle east during the "cold war" and it's likely the U.S. oil interests see that need as ongoing. With Dubya's orientation, it's likely he sees things that way too. The recent Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, and their handling of the "peace process" does seem, to me at least, more reminiscent of the way the Nazis went about treating conquered people than the way one would hope a purportedly civilized group would treat another, even a competing one. If we treated the illegal Mexican/Latin immigrants the way the Israelis treat the Palestinians, there would be a cry of outrage from the farthest reaches of the civilized world. Why that doesn't happen with respect to the Israelis is a mystery. The constant U.S. meddling in the internal affairs of other nations, regardless of how warranted by the values of our own culture, is an irritant to other nations, and, frankly, should stop. I think the enormous amounts of foreign aid given to Israel, which is one of our most predatory and unethical adversaries in the high-tech industry, should stop too, until they begin to embrace the same values that we insist other recipients of U.S. foreign aid are forced, by purse-string, to accept. Until U.S. policies take on a more balanced proportion, the smaller nations of the world will have to deal with the U.S. as one might when wrestling with a gorilla . . . Set his nuts on fire . . . It's not nice, but, from their prespective, it's necessary. Now, none of this justifies the barbaric acts of the probably small group that hijacked those airliners and subsequently used them as weapons of terror, but it might explain, just a little bit, the things we saw on the tube in the form of those street celebrations in Palestine and elsewhere. Nobody likes a bully that goes around telling folks, "No, no, no ... you're doing it wrong. What you ought to do is ..." Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:32 AM Subject: RE: OT: World Trade crash... > > > Like I said, this is a reckoning. > > > > > It is only a reckoning in the eyes of a select few -- such > > as those firing guns in the air in celebration of the many > > dead. There is no way that the taking of thousands of > > "innocent" lives balances out anything. Just as nothing > > will be resolved when we inevitably do the same in > > retaliation. > > I think the point he was trying to make regarding reckoning > is that America's foreign policy doesn't take into account > (or does a poor job of doing so) the reactions of various > peoples who think of themselves as disaffected. > > So, our nation throws it weight around long enough, and > eventually, push comes to shove. I had expected something > like this for a long time; the recent economic good-times > had lulled me into a false sense of security (things are > great all over, no?)... > > It's not about whether they are justfied (in reality) or not, > but how they feel about their situation. They feel put-upon, > and they hold us partly (w/r/t Palestinians) or totally (Iraq) > to blame. > > Should we therefore have a foreign policy that is doomed to > forever "walk on eggshells"? No; but status quo clearly isn't > working. > > -dq > > From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 12:24:36 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Need test leads for Biomation K105-D Logic analyzer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, George Leo Rachor Jr. wrote: > Well... It is on topic because I intend to use this beast to support my > older classic computers. > > I reciently obtained a Gould/Biomation Logic Analyzer. While it did have > probes it didn't have any software or manuals. > > The other item that it didn't come with is the little connector containing > the grabber wires at the very end of the probes. I'm hoping these kind of > items are more common then the probes themselves. > > Anyone have a line on where I might be able to find these critters? Try: California Digital http://www.cadigital.com Halted Specialties: http://www.halted.com Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Sep 12 12:33:35 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: Some new WTC pics... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146708C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> I got a couple more pictures of the World Trade Towers... http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Wed Sep 12 13:32:51 2001 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Tim Olmstead passed away Message-ID: <01K88XOWU8O2984PNO@cc.usu.edu> I saw a note over on comp.os.cpm this morning saying that Tim Olmstead has succumbed to his cancer and passed away. Since the Caldera license to distribute CP/M was in his name, this will affect the free distribution of CP/M until someone can pry a new license out of Caldera. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 12:36:39 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers References: Message-ID: <004901c13bb1$7b1c7fc0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:08 AM Subject: Re: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > Perhaps we don't all see it that way, but it could be argued. > > Nonetheless, I don't feel that letting someone look in my carry-on > > luggage to make sure I don't have guns, knives, bombs, etc. is a > > reasonable infringement, partiticularly since I've effectively agreed > > to allow this invasion of my privacy as part of the contract > > associated with air travel. > > I don't think it is a reasonable infringement either, but when they start > checking up my ass everytime I want to get on a plane, then I'll just stay > home. > I should have been more clear ... apparently ... I don't feel it's an infringement on my liberty at all, letting them check inside my carry-on luggage. I agree to such examination of the contents of my carry-on and person when I sign up to travel by air. The authorities check inside my briefcase and cause me to empty my pockets into a tray for inspection every time I go into the courthouse. That's been the case since the first day of the Neil Bush trial on 1/15/91. I used to carry a 1.25" long "Swiss-Army" knife on my keychain, mainly for the nail-file and scissors. I have to turn that in when I go to court, and reclaim it when I leave the courthouse. It's probably a good thing, though, else I might have been tempted to clip the judge's eyebrows ... > > > I'm sure the "essential liberty" to which Ben was referring didn't > > include the liberty to be irresponsible or selfish to the extent that > > it risks social order and encourages terrorists by overtly hiding them > > in our midst. > > Of course not, but it gets at another fundamental truth, which is that you > cannot solve the problem by hiding it under a bandage. > I'm not sure I understand what you mean, here. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 12:47:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: WTC attack suspects in custody References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146708C@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <005501c13bb2$ff170240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> >From what is on the tube, I'm persuaded that the authorities have arrested a couple of people in Boston and a couple more in Florida with clear evidence of their involvement in the attacks and clear ties to that Usama bin Laden, or whatever he's called (the media can't seem to agree on a spelling, etc). The subtitle on the tube said the White House won't move for a declaration of war yet. I don't know what that means. With yesterdays remarks, however, and with the chief exec's remarks about the U.S. position toward any nation that harbors the perpetrators/sponsors of this terrorism, it could spell disaster for Afghanistan. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: "Mac-NT Mail List (E-mail)" ; "AlphaNT Mail List (E-mail)" ; Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:33 AM Subject: OT: Some new WTC pics... > I got a couple more pictures of the World Trade Towers... > http://pages.cthome.net/squeege/wtrade/updates.html > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 12 13:13:10 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F7558.CD49211B@woa.com.au> References: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: >> > Don, you forget [...] training >> >> I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big >> commercial jet overnight. > >Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over) >and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much >training would someone with light aircraft skills need? Apparently a video tape is adequate, given the cars found with them left behind. Once the hijacker had control of the plane they had some time to practice with it before the target too. I am wondering about the planning of the attack, and the failure of any group to claim responsibility. I don't think it went according to plan, with the failure of just one of the 4 attacks, the complete destruction of both towers, and finally I think the American response was entirely misjudged. In the first part I am guessing they were "lucky", entering the country, making it through security and boarding flights very lightly populated, and getting the people on board to cooperate. Since hitting the towers as low as possible seems the most effective, that stage was poor. The final result wasn't terror, but resolve, that I think left those responsible in fear of admiting their acts. I agree I don't see this type of plane attack occuring in the US anytime soon, but I do expect to see it again someplace else in the world. Economically I was thinking about all the contracts, and accounts that are now blowing around the streets of NY. How many pending transactions that will fall through, or have payment or shipment massively delayed. Perhaps 50,000 people who were directly envolved in arranging and facilitating trade are now displaced, with perhaps 5 times that number now disconnected from their routine transaction methods. From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Sep 12 13:34:48 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <017001c13bb9$9baa43a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Osama Bin Laden NEVER acknowledged any participation in any terrorist activity. He always declared terrorism towards US, Israel and the Western Allies as a supurb magnificent achievement and that Allah -praise be upon his great name- will most certainly reward the marters who couragiously offered their lives with a single ticket to heaven. Heaven, being the place where they will subsequently fuck all the heavenly females till their heads come off, this to be repeated until eternity. Osama, the clever rat that he is will NEVER aid his enemies by simply acknowledging a terrorist deed. He will only plan, finance and execute them and will leave everybody else in the dark by speaking in religious mumbo jumbo and strong religious praise of those who execute the dirty work. After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some unfinished business over there. Acknowlegement of terrorist deeds is a boastfull but pointless thing to do, best left to amateur terrorists! Some incapable terrorist faction will ultimately do the boasting but that's not to say that they really did execute it. For now there is no real proof of who executed this tragedy, so I could also put the blame with the extreme religious rightwing factions of the US. aka a few new Timothy McVeighs. But there are a few indications that this will not be the case: 1) They would at least have choosen the UN-building 2) Xian marters go to a boring heaven with no sex whatsoever. 3) You will never see more than a couple of them with the same plan. Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:33 PM Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > While it's not ruled out that this is a middle-eastern style act, it's just as > likely it's a homeboy act. Don's assertion that our home-grown terrorists don't > as easily give up their own lives as do the middle-eastern or Asian types is > quite correct. However, the middle-eastern model involves boastful claims of > responsibility, without which the act is meaningless in the context of their > struggle. > > The only middle-eastern group that's done "big" things like this, incorporating > suicide, in recent years has been the one associated with Usama bin Ladin, or > whatever his name is, and they've been unacompanied by claims of "we did it" in > the past. That's why everyone involved seems to like this guy for the role of > #1 suspect, and tat's why we should not rush to judgment. It could turn out > that the WTC attacks were done by anti-globalization fanatics from > God-knows-where, while the Pentagon attack was done by someone unrelated. We > just don't have facts. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Don Maslin" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:44 PM > Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > > > > I wonder if this is foreign or more of the McViegh homeboys? > > > > Obviously foreign. `McVeigh homeboys' are not inclined to offer up > > their own lives in such efforts as are the `foreignboys'. > > > > - don > > > Chad > > > > > > LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > > For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas my heart and > > > > prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast there have been > 4 > > > > attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, and the state > > > > dept bldg in washington. > > > > > > > > -Linc Fessenden > > > > > > > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > > > > > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > > > > > > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 12 13:40:50 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F6AB4.E440516F@greenbelt.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Eric Chomko wrote: > > > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > > > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be > > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too > > > effective, for other organizations not to try > > > it again. > > > > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that > > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. > > I think that, after this, any able bodied person > > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. > > I know that I would, rather than die as part of > > an instrument used to kill many more. > > Yes, in the old days when a hijacker flew into Cuba > all the people survived and resistance was not deemed > to be useful. Now, that has all changed. > > Eric Aah! But does anyone else remember the time that a chap boarded a PSA flight in San Diego and tried to hijack it to Tijuana? As I recall, it failed because he made his attempt before they left the ground. - don From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 12 13:44:28 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > Don, you forget [...] training > > I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big > commercial jet overnight. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com Certainly true, but you also need not be a fully qualified commercial jet pilot to crash it into a tall building either. - don From sieler at allegro.com Wed Sep 12 13:41:43 2001 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010912103251.B1455687@uiuc.edu> References: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> Message-ID: <3B9F49F8.11970.299B07BC@localhost> Re: > In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the whole point > was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the > plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place > all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I > just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea? In between (i.e, no specific destination, but a crash was desired) ...a man tried to hijack and crash a plane here in California a couple of years ago (IIRC, the flight was from Southern California up to Northern California). The cockpit crew overpowered him, and landed safely. IIRC, the criminal venue was in San Francisco, and the defense attorney tried to get bail for the client, on the grounds that he had been mentally disturbed before, but was now "okay". (Don't recall what happened.) Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From west at tseinc.com Wed Sep 12 13:55:05 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: CPM website (was: A great loss, on topic...) References: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <005b01c13bbc$7055dbd0$d201a8c0@jay> Re: Tim Olmstead Since I'm not into CPM (yet) this may be a silly question. But in the interests of preservation.... If the unofficial CPM web site is his effort, what's going to happen to it now? Were other people involved so that the site will stay up in the future? It there is a chance this site will just disappear, someone let me know so I can spider the site and put it up on my servers where it will certainly continue to be available. Regards, Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: "Classic Computers" Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 8:42 PM Subject: A great loss, on topic... > Today Tim Olmstead passed away from a battle with cancer. > A great loss. > > For those less familiar with his efforts for the classic computer > community the _Unofficial CP/M Web_ site is his effort. > > For me I lost a friend and someone that shared the love of a system > he could totally understand to the very hardware and bits that made > it run. > > Allison > > From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 12 13:53:24 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010912091524.Q34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote: > > > > both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher > > than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the > > straight line. > > They were most likely flying the planes by hand. A perfectly straight > line can indeed be quite difficult to fly; corrections need to be made. > In the second WTC crash, for instance, you see the plane banking left at > the last minute and notice later that, while it dealt a most damaging > blow, it was a little right of center. The pilot was trying to make a > correction. > > > How hard would hitting the side of the Pentagon be? (45 degree descent > > apparently). > > Harder than you think, even assuming a total lack of target defense > capabilities. Airplanes can't or won't always go exactly where you point > them. In a single-engine prop plane, for instance, gyroscopic precession > of the prop gives the plane an affinity for turning left. Other kinds of I think it is more a matter of the aircraft wanting to roll left (counterclockwise) in response to the propeller pushing air in a clockwise direction. - don > planes have other issues. Vertical movement has complications resulting > from changing airspeed. If you put the nose of a plane into even a slight > dive, airspeed will increase *quickly*. You've got to arrange some way of > decreasing airspeed (throttling down the engines, extending the flaps, > etc.), or else the plane will soon begin to break apart. A 45-degree > angle seems horribly steep. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Sep 12 14:00:24 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: anyone have a wire disc cartridge rack? Message-ID: <006701c13bbd$2e1154b0$d201a8c0@jay> Since I've finally gotten my 2000Access system up AND obtained a fair number of 7900/7906 cartridges for it, I was looking for a cartridge rack. The style I'm thinking of is simply thick metal wire/rods, formed into a long tripod affair. This type was typically put on top of the computer rack or on a table, and 7900/7906 media (think RK05 or IBM 2313 cartridges) just got set in each slot on their side. This rack just held the media until use, very much like the wire tabletop mag tape racks. I'm looking for one that holds about 7-10 cartridges or so. If anyone has one of these to part with (or is willing to cut a long one in half and give up half) let me know. Thanks! Jay West From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Sep 12 14:01:12 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <01be01c13bbd$4b91f940$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I've just heard on the dutch new that on average it will cost about $1000 an hour to rent a proper professional flightsimulator for an hour, including a trainer. And of course there will be countries to offer the facility for free as well! Pre prepare with MS Flightsim and round it off with 1 or 2 hours in the real sim. 5 kamipilots $2000,- each makes $10,000-. Also remember you don't have to pay them. Allah will take care of that. Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------ ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Maslin To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:44 PM Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... > > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > > Don, you forget [...] training > > > > I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big > > commercial jet overnight. > > > > -- > > Jeffrey S. Sharp > > jss@subatomix.com > > Certainly true, but you also need not be a fully qualified commercial > jet pilot to crash it into a tall building either. > > - don > > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Sep 12 14:04:58 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> <3B9F49F8.11970.299B07BC@localhost> Message-ID: <01c401c13bbd$d283df40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Back in the sixties/seventies, the US authorities were afraid that it could be done on a nuclear powerplant. It seems the designed the containmenthull of nuclear powerplants to resist such an event. Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Stan Sieler To: Dan Wright ; Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 8:41 PM Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... > Re: > > In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the whole point > > was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the > > plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place > > all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I > > just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea? > > In between (i.e, no specific destination, but a crash was desired) > ...a man tried to hijack and crash a plane here in California > a couple of years ago (IIRC, the flight was from Southern California up to > Northern California). The cockpit crew overpowered > him, and landed safely. IIRC, the criminal venue was in San Francisco, and the > defense attorney tried to get bail for the client, on the grounds that he had > been mentally disturbed before, but was now "okay". (Don't recall what > happened.) > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler From marino13 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 12 14:06:19 2001 From: marino13 at btinternet.com (Shaun Stephenson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <3B9FB22B.B6C6F39F@btinternet.com> Yeah I agree - I guess its the time and short duration that are key to this and that would make a difference. I still stick by the fact that I for one would not let 3 guys with pocket knives (no matter how mad they looked) scare me into letting them get on with the process of killing, especially after they killed the stewardesses... that would probably be enough catalyst for me to try to do something. Dont take it the wrong way, I'm not saying "hey, look at me, I could deal with them no problem", but I definately would give it a go if push came to shove. But hey, we have no idea what happened really - people may well have tried, or they may all have been told it was a plain hijack / hostage thing, I dunno. The lack of guns probably did look extremely suspicious I think. But above all this, I'm definately not trying to detract at all from the credibility, braveness or intelligence of these poor people, many such debates will rage on for months but overall my deepest regrets and best wishes go out to all those families and friends, and complete and utmost respect to the people that died. Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 marino13@btopenworld.com wrote: > > > I have to say that I agree with the original part of this - I have > > been discussing this with my colleagues and I know for a FACT (and > > yeah its a lot easier to say this when you're not involved) that I > > would definately take the risk... the chances are you're gonna die > > anyway. If the plane was on the ground or part of a "hostage scenario" > > thats different but I am surprised not one person would have tried > > anything. But who knows... perhaps they did. > > When you have a cross-country 8am flight, that means you probably got up > pretty early that morning (maybe 5:30am), got showered and dressed, got > your stuff together and rushed to the airport, still in a haze. You then > got on the plane, put your bags up, maybe kicked off your shoes, and > settled in for a long flight. > > All of a sudden, you're awoken by a bunch of maniacs who are thrusting > knives at you and forcing you to the back of the plane. Within 15 minutes > you are slamming into the side of a highrise building. > > Give these people some credit. They didn't have much time to react, let > alone assess just what the heck was going on. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Tue Sep 11 22:43:58 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Administrivia - Billion Second Day In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010910143626.007b83d0@costanzo.net> Message-ID: <647.655T2900T2836569optimus@canit.se> Lance Costanzo skrev: >While IBM, HP, Dec, Intel, Microsoft, and a cast of thousands have >been duking it out for the past 31-3/4 years, UNIX time() (ref: man 3 time) >has been steadily plodding along and has quietly ticked past 1 billion >seconds within the last day or so. So, what other epochs are there for us to celebrate? The Amiga's timekeeping routine starts AFAIK at 1978 (which is a lot of time before the Amiga was actually made. Could it be intended to coincide with the invention of the PET or another C= micro?). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Sep 12 14:13:00 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... References: Message-ID: <01da01c13bbe$f1bb6620$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Going in while banking will give the impact a damaging imprint across many floors, This will increase the damage and enhance the chance that all kinetic energy will be deposited in the building. (A level flight might partly shoot thru). So the banking action of both planes may have been intentional! Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------------------ http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Terry Collins wrote: > > > > > > both planes were turning a circle into the towers (one wing higher > > > than other) and I would consider that much harder than follow the > > > straight line. > > > > They were most likely flying the planes by hand. A perfectly straight > > line can indeed be quite difficult to fly; corrections need to be made. > > In the second WTC crash, for instance, you see the plane banking left at > > the last minute and notice later that, while it dealt a most damaging > > blow, it was a little right of center. The pilot was trying to make a > > correction. > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 12 14:20:16 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: CPM website (was: A great loss, on topic...) In-Reply-To: <005b01c13bbc$7055dbd0$d201a8c0@jay> References: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >If the unofficial CPM web site is his effort, what's going to happen to it >now? Were other people involved so that the site will stay up in the future? >It there is a chance this site will just disappear, someone let me know so I >can spider the site and put it up on my servers where it will certainly >continue to be available. For that matter, where is the site these days? I've lost track of it since I've not done anything CP/M related the last couple of years. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From msell at ontimesupport.com Wed Sep 12 14:29:56 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <3B9F7558.CD49211B@woa.com.au> <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010912142532.02ab7080@127.0.0.1> Talk to airline pilots. There is no way in hell that anyone could "practice with it" and achieve the accuracy required to hit a small target like the WTC (yes, small - those planes were going several hundreds of miles-per-hour at the time), with the skill that was displayed. Plane #2 was in a gradual descending turn when it impacted the building. Those guys could fly those planes reasonably well. And NAVIGATE! Videotapes do not give you the proper skills to fly an aircraft like an 757/767. Period. - Matt > > >Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over) > >and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much > >training would someone with light aircraft skills need? > >Apparently a video tape is adequate, given the cars found with them left >behind. Once the hijacker had control of the plane they had some time to >practice with it before the target too. Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 13:35:57 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <20010912053335.42143.qmail@web20105.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 11, 1 10:33:35 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1899 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/0779a40e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 13:45:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: Introductory Electronics Book? In-Reply-To: from "Alan Pearson" at Sep 12, 1 09:19:51 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/c51ee6c5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 13:26:20 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:29 2005 Subject: A great loss, on topic... In-Reply-To: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> from "ajp166" at Sep 11, 1 09:42:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 651 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/9f0d1edb/attachment.ksh From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 12 14:37:18 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: WTC attack suspects in custody In-Reply-To: <005501c13bb2$ff170240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 12, 01 11:47:30 am Message-ID: <200109121937.PAA30645@wordstock.com> I have also seen that the Taliban are now *begging* the US to not attack them. They really should be making peace with their creator like all of the 266 people aboard the jet liners had to do (or didn't have time to!) before crashing! Bryan > > >From what is on the tube, I'm persuaded that the authorities have arrested a > couple of people in Boston and a couple more in Florida with clear evidence of > their involvement in the attacks and clear ties to that Usama bin Laden, or > whatever he's called (the media can't seem to agree on a spelling, etc). The > subtitle on the tube said the White House won't move for a declaration of war > yet. I don't know what that means. With yesterdays remarks, however, and with > the chief exec's remarks about the U.S. position toward any nation that harbors > the perpetrators/sponsors of this terrorism, it could spell disaster for > Afghanistan. > From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 14:38:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Tim Olmstead passed away In-Reply-To: <01K88XOWU8O2984PNO@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Roger Ivie wrote: > I saw a note over on comp.os.cpm this morning saying that Tim Olmstead > has succumbed to his cancer and passed away. Since the Caldera license > to distribute CP/M was in his name, this will affect the free > distribution of CP/M until someone can pry a new license out of > Caldera. Why can't someone simply inherit Tim's license and pass it on to someone else who is willing to take over? Is it non-transferrable? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mldrew at drewtech.com Wed Sep 12 14:40:46 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Michael L. Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <017001c13bb9$9baa43a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3B9FBA3E.BFB47ADF@drewtech.com> Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. > Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some > unfinished business over there. This is the best plan I have heard so far.... Let the USA and Russia reduce their nuke stock piles by tossing them in that shit hole until there nothing is left but glass and ash! Thanks Spike!!! From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Sep 12 14:49:09 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912124746.00b18280@mail.azstarnet.com> At 11:44 AM 9/12/2001 -0700, you wrote: >Certainly true, but you also need not be a fully qualified commercial >jet pilot to crash it into a tall building either. > > - don No, but you might to navigate it several hundred miles in a straight line (look at the radar tracking reports) to a target and then crash it into a particular tall building at a good height. These guys were well trained and knew what they were doing. GZ From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 14:49:46 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > I am wondering about the planning of the attack, and the failure of > any group to claim responsibility. I don't think it went according to > plan, with the failure of just one of the 4 attacks, the complete > destruction of both towers, and finally I think the American response > was entirely misjudged. In the first part I am guessing they were > "lucky", entering the country, making it through security and boarding > flights very lightly populated, and getting the people on board to > cooperate. Since hitting the towers as low as possible seems the most > effective, that stage was poor. The final result wasn't terror, but > resolve, that I think left those responsible in fear of admiting their > acts. First of all, you're assuming this was the act of foreign terrorists. Unless you know something law enforcement doesn't, nothing has been established yet. Don't rely on news reports to be your main source of "facts" either. Second, you're assuming these guys intended for the buildings to collapse. While I think it's plausible that they very well could have understood and knew in advance the ramifications of ramming a building with a jetliner, I think the collapse of the buildings was an unforseen side-effect that no doubt thrilled the perpetrators. Third, I doubt the perpetrators ever thought that this would crush the resolve of the U.S. The U.S. has NEVER capitulated. Even when we did capitulate (Vietnam) it was not called a capitulation and was spun into something entirely different. What are the three strongest aspects of the United States? 1) Our economy 2) Our military 3) Our leadership They got one and two, and probably were headed for three when the plane went down. This was sending a message. We've yet to determine who was sending it. We've yet to know if this is even over yet. I think it's important to remember not to jump to conclusions without facts. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Sep 12 14:52:22 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010912091432.02adbe00@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: They knew all about it as they had killed the beacon/transponder and likely the comm systems (maybe even the recording system to the black boxes if that's possible from the cockpit) so it doubt it was any real problem for the temporary crew that had already maced and stabbed their way into the driver's seat. I've been granted a few minutes time in the copilot seat of a B-52G a few years ago - it's like moving a house with the stick. Of course these are different controls from that of a commercial airliner. They had plenty of time to make a turn and came in straight so there's maybe even the possibility of someone bailing with a parachute minutes before but to pinpoint the building I'm sure they were in full control to the last second. besides if it's the group they think it is they feel it's an honor to die in the completion of their mission. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis -> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:19 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... -> -> -> At 12:46 AM 9/13/01 +1000, Terry wrote: -> >Skipping take off skills (it is already in the air when you take over) -> >and landing skills (it isn't going down in the normal way) how much -> >training would someone with light aircraft skills need? -> -> Ok, for the morbidly fascinated folks of the world, MS FlightSimulator -> comes with 737 aircraft models, (there are 757 and 767 models on -> the web) -> it also comes with a manhattan database replete with trade -> towers. So try -> it yourself. Flying a large jet at high speed, the thing takes a -> mile and a -> half to make a "tight" turn. The WTC is only just wider than the -> aircraft. -> -> So my thoughts are -> to hit "any" building - pretty straightforward for someone -> who knows the basics of how an airplane flys -> to hit a "specific" building from a specific angle -> That is darn difficult -> -> --Chuck -> -> From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Sep 12 14:56:08 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: References: <002001c13b8c$075a4060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912125437.01f678f0@mail.azstarnet.com> At 10:08 AM 9/12/2001 -0700, you wrote: >I would much prefer that the US "leadership" perform that role (i.e. >lead) appropriately by re-evaluating the policies that would make us so >hated that some group would carry out an attack such as yesterday's. I agree with much of what you say, but along the same line of thought, no matter how 'nice' we are to others there will always be some who hate us, regardless of what we try to do. Being 'nice' and 'friendly' is not a solution to this problem (which doesn't mean we should or shouldn't do that). Gordon From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 12 15:00:16 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: WTC attack suspects in custody In-Reply-To: <200109121937.PAA30645@wordstock.com> References: <200109121937.PAA30645@wordstock.com> Message-ID: <1000324820.18317.3.camel@DESK-2> > > > > >From what is on the tube, I'm persuaded that the authorities have arrested a > > couple of people in Boston and a couple more in Florida with clear evidence of > > their involvement in the attacks and clear ties to that Usama bin Laden, or > > whatever he's called (the media can't seem to agree on a spelling, etc). The > > subtitle on the tube said the White House won't move for a declaration of war > > yet. I don't know what that means. With yesterdays remarks, however, and with > > the chief exec's remarks about the U.S. position toward any nation that harbors > > the perpetrators/sponsors of this terrorism, it could spell disaster for > > Afghanistan. > > I saw the arrest of three suspects on a train leaving Boston. Where did you hear that they had 'clear ties' to Bin Laden, or that actual arrests we're made in Florida? It was stated that perhaps two homes were rented by two pilot trainees from the Middle East, and they had vacated the residence before the weekend. I hope you're correct that they may have evidence of a connection to the suspects - but I haven't heard anything - at least on CNN and MSNB yet. Where did you hear this? Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/bd0ed92f/attachment.bin From zaft at azstarnet.com Wed Sep 12 15:01:24 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Secure cockpit doors? In-Reply-To: References: <008a01c13b95$1eacede0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912125924.00b0be58@mail.azstarnet.com> At 09:46 AM 9/12/2001 -0700, you wrote: >It seem logical that, after seeing what a hijacker COULD do, the airlines >will install secure doors to the cockpit. The idea being that if a hijacker >takes the plane, the most he can do is either blow up the plane, or command >the pilots to fly to a certain destination but they would not be able to get >into the cockpit themselves. This would be expensive, and it would take time >but I think that they should consider it. I saw this discussed last night on NBC (I think). It's not possible to make cockpit doors really strong, apparently; something about the airplane's pressure vessel and what would happen in a decompression means the door can't be too strong or it will screw up the plane (for example, blow the pilots out the windows in the event of a decompression elsewhere in the plane, or something). Perhaps someone with more knowledge about this can comment. GZ From rhblakeman at kih.net Wed Sep 12 15:00:40 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Secure cockpit doors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They'd also have to put in a steel plate wall/door along with it (take out 2 seats for that weight added) plus it's not much good if the hijacker shoots a hole in a pressurized wall and causes the plane to break up or decend violently. They might install a parlyzing agent that can be remotely actuated in the cockpit that would put all involved to sleep or incapacitated although there will always be someone that has a health problem this would affect, or someone screaming that their civil rights have been violated. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ernest -> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 11:46 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Secure cockpit doors? -> -> -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Bill Sudbrink" -> To: -> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:10 AM -> Subject: Re: OT: World Trade crash... -> -> -> > -> > Mike Ford [mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: -> > -> > > Very sadly I suspect this type of attack to be -> > > repeated soon. It was simply too easy and too -> > > effective, for other organizations not to try -> > > it again. -> > -> > I doubt that. As a matter of fact, I think that -> > most airline hijacking will cease to be effective. -> > I think that, after this, any able bodied person -> > on a hijacked plane will resist with their life. -> > I know that I would, rather than die as part of -> > an instrument used to kill many more. -> -> It seem logical that, after seeing what a hijacker COULD do, the airlines -> will install secure doors to the cockpit. The idea being that if -> a hijacker -> takes the plane, the most he can do is either blow up the plane, -> or command -> the pilots to fly to a certain destination but they would not be -> able to get -> into the cockpit themselves. This would be expensive, and it -> would take time -> but I think that they should consider it. -> -> This would be emotionally hard for the pilots because certainly -> the hijacker -> would threaten to kill passengers if the cockpit door isn't -> opened but all -> things considered, I'm sure that the pilots and passengers would -> rather see -> the plane go down than see a repeat of yesterday's tragedy. It seems more -> likely that a few people would be injured but the damage would -> be contained -> if the cockpit doors are secured. -> -> Also, the news reports indicate that the hijackers had knives. -> Knife wounds -> are not as physically tramatic, nor as fatal as gun shot wounds -> so I would -> assume that people would attack the hijackers if they started to -> cut people. -> Bombs and guns are not easy to smuggle onto a plane these days -> so it seems -> logical that hijackers would have to resort to other weapons, -> like clubs or -> knives, etc.. -> -> After what happened yesterday, I basically agree that flight -> hijacking will -> cease to be effective. That doesn't mean that terrorists won't -> continue to -> blow them up, etc. -they still like to kill and destroy after all but it -> will be much more difficult for organized terrorist groups to think of an -> airplane as a tool of mass destruction. -> -> E. -> -> From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 12 15:07:13 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <3B9F49F8.11970.299B07BC@localhost> References: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> <3B9F49F8.11970.299B07BC@localhost> Message-ID: <1000325237.18315.7.camel@DESK-2> There was an hijack on a UPS cargo plane a number of years back by a disgruntled UPS employee. He overpowered the skeleton flight crew and attempted to crash the plane into the main UPS hub in Memphis, TN. Fortunately, the injured flight crew struggled back control of the plane and overted a potential disaster. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 14:41, Stan Sieler wrote: > Re: > > In fact, I don't know of any previous hijacking scenario where the whole point > > was to fly the plane into something to destroy it, rather then to take the > > plane somewhere other then the intended destination; hijackings do take place > > all the time in other parts of the world, though, so it might happen and I > > just don't know about it. Anyone else have any idea? > > In between (i.e, no specific destination, but a crash was desired) > ...a man tried to hijack and crash a plane here in California > a couple of years ago (IIRC, the flight was from Southern California up to > Northern California). The cockpit crew overpowered > him, and landed safely. IIRC, the criminal venue was in San Francisco, and the > defense attorney tried to get bail for the client, on the grounds that he had > been mentally disturbed before, but was now "okay". (Don't recall what > happened.) > > Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com > www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.allegro.com/sieler -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/baaa472b/attachment.bin From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 15:02:17 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010912200217.78635.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chris wrote: > >Since you don't know what to do with either, here is a little warning, > >they're big. I'm going to guess the 11/730 is a 19" rack, and the > 11/750 > >will be bigger. > > YIKES... humm... then maybe I don't want them The 11/730 came in two flavors, both in 19"x42" racks - the original had the CPU in the middle in a pull-out enclosure, with (typically) an RL02 on top and RB80 (121Mb) on the bottom. The later version looked like a skinny 11/750 with the CPU behind a full-length door in a BA-11 with a custom backplane in part of it and presumably a regular DD11-DK or two in the rest. Its TU-58s were, IIRC, accessible from the front. The 11/750 was in a 42" tall cabinet also, but about 25% wider. The backplane was turned so the cards were vertical, like an 11/780 or other large VAX. It went from right to left, CPU cards, MASSBUS cards, memory cards, then a DD11-DK on the right edge. If you didn't need lots of Unibus peripherals, it could be self-contained from an I/O standpoint. If you had a Unibus SCSI card, you could even make it self-contained for disk (but you'd have to rig power from somewhere). Tape could be another matter. As I've said before, the 11/750 is one of my favorite VAXen. It's not scorchingly fast, even by VAX standards, but with 8Mb, it'll run VMS4.x just fine with room for a couple of users. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 12 10:50:24 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Asunto: Re: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20010912085638.E34891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <01Sep12.161443edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >I bet this was the biggest cost; you just don't learn how to fly a big >commercial jet overnight. In this case though not as big an expense as it normally is since the hijacker's obviously knew it was a one-way trip so they didn't have to worry about learning to land and such. Granted, if you're flying by the book it gets quite involved but to take over a plane already in the air and keep it in the air wouldn't be that hard. The navigation would've been the hard part, unless of course the real aircrew was kept in the seats up until very near the end. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 15:09:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <017001c13bb9$9baa43a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <000f01c13bc6$e315baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I wouldn't be so quick to bind the stupid, right-wing religious factions to the stupid, right-wing militia movement. The two have no particular regard for one another, though there may be considerable overlap. What they have in common is the low ratio of grey-cells per capita, and they feed on one another's lack of insight. Though I'm acquainted with quite a number of active evangelical Christians, I know nobody willing to acknowledge affiliation with the "religious right" wing. I also am, through my former involvement in shooting sports, acquainted with a number of weapons (gun-ownership-rights) activists, and none of them will admit to being, or knowing other who are, of the "religious right" wing. While we've recognized that they can't all be as dumb as they seem, it's odd that the religious right is always represented by some spokesman of not much more than room-temperature IQ. Pulling off a terrorist act such as what happened yesterday is not rocket science, though there are a number of details that have to be managed. However, buying knives isn't difficult, even if it's done over the web. Ordering plane tickets can be done that way also, as can reserving a car or two. Fortunately, with the aid of appropriate subpoenas, the law enforcement guys will have all the details in a few days. None of this stuff takes tons of money. I doubt that the whole operation cost the instigators/funders more than $50K. That Bin Laden thing of deny, deny, deny, never admitting, let alone claiming, responsibility for an attack is what's likely to cost him his support within the cultural base on which he relies. He buys the loyalties of poor, muslims by donating money to the families of suicide bombers and soldiers killed in actions against the Israelis and Americans. Faced with the potential punishment to be meted out by the Western powers once the originator of this most recent attack is discovered, they won't continue to be loyal followers. Once he's without that low-level support, he's done. Meanwhile, once presented with incontrovertible evidence that Bin Laden is, in fact, responsible for a terrorist act on this scale, I doubt the Taliban will be anxious to continue offering him aid and comfort, fearing the wrath of those who disapprove of such acts. They will endeavor to gain favor with the West by giving him up, as their only other option will be to suffer a terrible punishment. Though it's easily possible, and possibly warranted, it's not likely the U.S. will have to reduce the entirety of Afghanistan to a lifeless cinder, just to get this guy. There's a civil war going on there right now, and who ends up with the upper hand is still a question. If the West becomes involved in any way, particularly in supporting one side or the other, it could go very badly for Bin Laden. I think the die is cast where Bin Laden is concerned. The gov is determined to "get" him, and that's what they'll likely do. I just hope it's really he who is determined later to have been the one responsible for this attack, for which he seems to be getting the blame. If that's the case, no punishment will be severe enough. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sipke de Wal" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 12:34 PM Subject: Re: World Trade -- Acknowledgement > Osama Bin Laden NEVER acknowledged any participation in any > terrorist activity. He always declared terrorism towards US, Israel and the > Western Allies as a supurb magnificent achievement and that Allah > -praise be upon his great name- will most certainly reward the marters > who couragiously offered their lives with a single ticket to heaven. > Heaven, being the place where they will subsequently fuck all the > heavenly females till their heads come off, this to be repeated until > eternity. > > Osama, the clever rat that he is will NEVER aid his enemies by simply > acknowledging a terrorist deed. He will only plan, finance and execute > them and will leave everybody else in the dark by speaking in religious > mumbo jumbo and strong religious praise of those who execute the > dirty work. > > After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. > Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some > unfinished business over there. > > Acknowlegement of terrorist deeds is a boastfull but pointless thing to > do, best left to amateur terrorists! > > Some incapable terrorist faction will ultimately do the boasting but that's > not to say that they really did execute it. > > For now there is no real proof of who executed this tragedy, so I could > also put the blame with the extreme religious rightwing factions of the > US. aka a few new Timothy McVeighs. But there are a few indications > that this will not be the case: > > 1) They would at least have choosen the UN-building > 2) Xian marters go to a boring heaven with no sex whatsoever. > 3) You will never see more than a couple of them with the same plan. > > Sipke de Wal > ---------------------------------------------------------- > http://xgistor.ath.cx > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:33 PM > Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > > > While it's not ruled out that this is a middle-eastern style act, it's just as > > likely it's a homeboy act. Don's assertion that our home-grown terrorists > don't > > as easily give up their own lives as do the middle-eastern or Asian types is > > quite correct. However, the middle-eastern model involves boastful claims of > > responsibility, without which the act is meaningless in the context of their > > struggle. > > > > The only middle-eastern group that's done "big" things like this, > incorporating > > suicide, in recent years has been the one associated with Usama bin Ladin, or > > whatever his name is, and they've been unacompanied by claims of "we did it" > in > > the past. That's why everyone involved seems to like this guy for the role of > > #1 suspect, and tat's why we should not rush to judgment. It could turn out > > that the WTC attacks were done by anti-globalization fanatics from > > God-knows-where, while the Pentagon attack was done by someone unrelated. We > > just don't have facts. > > > > Dick > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Don Maslin" > > To: > > Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:44 PM > > Subject: Re: World Trade crash... > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder if this is foreign or more of the McViegh homeboys? > > > > > > Obviously foreign. `McVeigh homeboys' are not inclined to offer up > > > their own lives in such efforts as are the `foreignboys'. > > > > > > - don > > > > Chad > > > > > > > > LFessen106@aol.com wrote: > > > > > For those of you with friends and loved ones in these areas my heart and > > > > > prayers are with you. At 10:40am here on the east coast there have > been > > 4 > > > > > attacks so far. The world trade center twice, the pentagon, and the > state > > > > > dept bldg in washington. > > > > > > > > > > -Linc Fessenden > > > > > > > > > > In The Beginning there was nothing, which exploded - Yeah right... > > > > > > > > > > Calculating in binary code is as easy as 01,10,11. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From sipke at wxs.nl Wed Sep 12 15:11:00 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <017001c13bb9$9baa43a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <3B9FBA3E.BFB47ADF@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <01f601c13bc7$0c0d1840$030101ac@boll.casema.net> I was just being cynical. These kind of events do that to me! Sipke By the way: I didn't misspell my name! -------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx -------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael L. Drew To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 9:40 PM Subject: Re: World Trade -- Acknowledgement > > > Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > > > > > After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. > > Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some > > unfinished business over there. > > This is the best plan I have heard so far.... > > Let the USA and Russia reduce their nuke stock piles > by tossing them in that shit hole until there nothing is left but glass and ash! > > Thanks Spike!!! > > From west at tseinc.com Wed Sep 12 15:21:12 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY Message-ID: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. Regards, Jay West -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/9a11299e/attachment.html From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Wed Sep 12 14:18:54 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20010912080727.01cfea20@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010912151854.01d00db4@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:51 AM 9/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > >> Big slowdown. But not tanking it. I think that some bubbles will >> burst (i.e., stuff that isn't there now but which investors thought >> that would be there in the future). But this did not affect any key, >> real production resource. And the US dollar is not in much danger >> either. So we're just facing a big "correction". > >The WTC was not a key and real production resource? The WTC WAS our >economy (in a most abstract sense). It is stuff whose function can be replicated more easily than say, a refinery's or a steel mill's. Especially in our times, with our computers. Company offices elsewhere will take up the slack. And, sadly for New Yorkers, I think that if anything like the WTC is ever rebuilt, it probably won't be in Manhattan, but perhaps just across the river. Already, lots of such firms were moving to Newark because of the high office space costs in Manhattan. carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 15:24:48 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement In-Reply-To: <3B9FBA3E.BFB47ADF@drewtech.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Michael L. Drew wrote: > > After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. > > Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some > > unfinished business over there. > > This is the best plan I have heard so far.... > > Let the USA and Russia reduce their nuke stock piles > by tossing them in that shit hole until there nothing is left but glass and ash! Yeah! Great idea! Let's pollute the entire world for all eternity in one act of retribution. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 12 15:43:27 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY In-Reply-To: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> Thanks for the HTML. Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 16:21, Jay West wrote: > I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. > > HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. > > What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. > > Regards, > > Jay West -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/92f0386e/attachment.bin From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 15:42:19 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912125437.01f678f0@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > I agree with much of what you say, but along the same line of > thought, no matter how 'nice' we are to others there will always be > some who hate us, regardless of what we try to do. Being 'nice' and > 'friendly' is not a solution to this problem (which doesn't mean we > should or shouldn't do that). That is bullshit rhetoric. Political "leaders" came out in full force with that garbage last night to throw attention away from their ineptitude. The US is (or was) an open, free and prosperous society (or at least is supposed to be) that many people around the world dream of coming to, and this country was founded in part on the principle of accepting those people. No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of our actions over the past half-century. If you believe otherwise then you're in denial. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 15:50:14 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement In-Reply-To: <000f01c13bc6$e315baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > They will endeavor to gain favor with the West by giving him up, as > their only other option will be to suffer a terrible punishment. > Though it's easily possible, and possibly warranted, it's not likely > the U.S. will have to reduce the entirety of Afghanistan to a lifeless > cinder, just to get this guy. There's a civil war going on there > right now, and who ends up with the upper hand is still a question. As an aside, who do you think is responsible, both directly and indirectly, for helping to put the Taliban in power? You guessed it! Our own American Government. > I think the die is cast where Bin Laden is concerned. The gov is > determined to "get" him, and that's what they'll likely do. I just > hope it's really he who is determined later to have been the one > responsible for this attack, for which he seems to be getting the > blame. If that's the case, no punishment will be severe enough. The FBI is handling this case. Three words: Wen Ho Lee. Enough said. I don't think we'll ever really know who did it. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 15:51:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: We're saved! Message-ID: I just heard on the news: no steak knives in First Class anymore. That'll thwart those pesky terrorists!! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Wed Sep 12 15:53:11 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Where are the Anti-OT measures? Message-ID: <3B9FCB36.8F221792@tinyworld.co.uk> I'm not disputing the importance of this issue, but this isn't the place. From west at tseinc.com Wed Sep 12 16:08:08 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: <001901c13bcf$05ef6a50$d201a8c0@jay> 1) My apologies for the HTML. I was under the impression that it was turned off on my desktop at work, it is definitely turned off on my system at home (which is where I PREFER to deal with classiccmp issues). Since the daily care and feeding of this list eats into my time at work (yeah, you're most welcome Jeffrey), if I have to respond to something related to it at work I would really prefer it if you'd just thank me for hosting this list and suffer the very rare HTML indulgence of me posting from work. Unless you would like to offer your services to host the list...but be prepared, I can assure you its a pretty thankless job. 2) I really don't care if I'm in the minority or not. But more to the point, this whole thread has already turned into political discussion and the flames are starting. For example, see Sellam's recent email. I didn't complain at first, but now that the discussion is decidedly turning into political flaming again, I'm going to respond. Live with it. 3) From the flood of messages I got last time the discussion turned to politics asking me to do something about it, I suggest you re-evaluate just who is in the minority. Nuff Said Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Ingber" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:43 PM Subject: Re: ENOUGH ALREADY Thanks for the HTML. Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 12 16:17:35 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1000329459.18634.6.camel@DESK-2> As a citizen of the United States, I stand behind, and fully support our leaders in this time of crisis. No matter how hard you try to spin this, this sensless act of destruction was *wrong*. There is no way you can justify this act - no matter who we may have "pissed off". You piss me off. But you may forget what makes this country great - and It's your right to voice your opinion. And I will gladly give my life to defend your right to say it. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 16:42, Sellam Ismail wrote: > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > > > I agree with much of what you say, but along the same line of > > thought, no matter how 'nice' we are to others there will always be > > some who hate us, regardless of what we try to do. Being 'nice' and > > 'friendly' is not a solution to this problem (which doesn't mean we > > should or shouldn't do that). > > That is bullshit rhetoric. Political "leaders" came out in full force > with that garbage last night to throw attention away from their > ineptitude. > > The US is (or was) an open, free and prosperous society (or at least is > supposed to be) that many people around the world dream of coming to, and > this country was founded in part on the principle of accepting those > people. > > No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and > prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of > our actions over the past half-century. > > If you believe otherwise then you're in denial. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/7bf7594f/attachment.bin From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Wed Sep 12 16:31:28 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY In-Reply-To: <001901c13bcf$05ef6a50$d201a8c0@jay> References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> <001901c13bcf$05ef6a50$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <1000330292.18634.20.camel@DESK-2> Have you ever been amongst a group a friends, engaged in discussion? Maybe you were talking about computers, sports, etc., and the discussion begins to take another direction. The talk about computers may move into classic computers, minicomputers, programming languages, software design - you get the idea. The mailing list is a vehicle by which people share their common interestes. Right now, we have deviated from the topic of the mailing list. And this will inevidibly happen again. If people disagree, that's the nature of [intelligent] discussion. Politics, like computers, is an element of society which directly effects the lives of eveyone who patronize the list. The mailing list has created a tight social circle, and people will inevitably discuss the issues which are in the forefront of their lives. I salute you for operating the mailing list as you are performing a service for all its members. However, I think some sensitiviy and leverage may be appropriate given the circumstances. The US has faced inarguably, the worst tragedy whithin it's history and thousands of lives we're lost yesterday. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 17:08, Jay West wrote: > 1) My apologies for the HTML. I was under the impression that it was turned > off on my desktop at work, it is definitely turned off on my system at home > (which is where I PREFER to deal with classiccmp issues). Since the daily > care and feeding of this list eats into my time at work (yeah, you're most > welcome Jeffrey), if I have to respond to something related to it at work I > would really prefer it if you'd just thank me for hosting this list and > suffer the very rare HTML indulgence of me posting from work. Unless you > would like to offer your services to host the list...but be prepared, I can > assure you its a pretty thankless job. > > 2) I really don't care if I'm in the minority or not. But more to the point, > this whole thread has already turned into political discussion and the > flames are starting. For example, see Sellam's recent email. I didn't > complain at first, but now that the discussion is decidedly turning into > political flaming again, I'm going to respond. Live with it. > > 3) From the flood of messages I got last time the discussion turned to > politics asking me to do something about it, I suggest you re-evaluate just > who is in the minority. > > Nuff Said > > Jay West > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeffrey Ingber" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:43 PM > Subject: Re: ENOUGH ALREADY > > Thanks for the HTML. > > Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people > seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. > > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/eab2fd27/attachment.bin From foo at siconic.com Wed Sep 12 16:34:53 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY In-Reply-To: <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: On 12 Sep 2001, Jeffrey Ingber wrote: > Thanks for the HTML. > > Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people > seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. JAY IS THE MODERATOR OF THIS LIST. As far as I'm concerned, what Jay says goes. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Wed Sep 12 16:41:43 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467091@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> -----Original Message----- From: Jay West [mailto:west@tseinc.com] I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. Regards, Jay West Jay --- Thank you for your sympathy... What possesed us to post updates here? Since I was the first to mention it (IIRC, I might be wrong), I'll answer... Simple. Many people here were stuck at work, without any source of news, to find out what was happening. Major news websites were useless, since they were all swamped yesterday. I know of a couple people, who didn't know a thing about it, until I sent a message. They were then able to take care of necessary business in due time. If I upset someone by posting an OT message to one of my mailing lists, and helping someone in the process, I say too bad. Suck it up. There are a few times when an OT post is accepted. Yesterday was one of them. But, yes, now is the time to kill this thread from the list, now that everything has calmed down some... It's time to help your neighbors. Call your local Red Cross, and make an app't to donate blood. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/0d53d138/attachment.html From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 16:46:21 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010912214621.42576.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > > That sounds a little like what I have... Mine are National Instruments > > 180212-01, Rev A PCBs (c. 1984), silk-screened to Assy. No. 180210-0. > > The main chip is an NEC 7201, the IEEE-488 interface chips are Nat. > Semi > > I'll bet that's a typo for 7210. Oops. Sure is. > > There's a five-position DIP switch labelled "0, 1, 2, 14, 13", which I > > take to be a GPIB address, a bank of jumpers marked > > I wonder if that might be part of the I/O address. Lines 0,1,2 and 13,14. > IIRC, the IBM GPIB card did decode address lines other than the normal 10 > used by most I/O devices. The top ones were used to select between > multiple GPIB cards in the same machine IIRC. Hmm... good point. I do recall seeing some stuff about how wierd the addressing normally is (something about the progression for multiple cards going like 0x03ee, 0x04ee, 0x05ee, then something like 0x3e1... I don't recall the actual numbers off the top of my head.) I don't have an ISA spec in front of me - is there an A13 and A14 on an 8-bit slot? > That last set might be 'Request' and 'Acknowldge' for DMA? In other words > a DMA channel select. Right. > > indicating that it could have a Lithium coin cell, a 58167... > The 58167 is a real time clock IIRC. In which case the Xtal is almost > certainly a 32.768kHz one. They normally come in a tiny cylindrical can. The silk-screen shows an oval spot with the leads spaced about .2" apart. I expect that it was for one of those flush-mount .1" tall Xtal cans. The small cylindrical ones I've seen on motherboards could be made to fit with no problem. > You can probably raid the 58167 off an old XT real time clock card, or > some older AT motherboards, or the like. Good point. Did AT motherboards have them? I've mostly seen Dallas chips with embedded batteries on clone boards. > The other passives aren't that critical. The values of the capacitors > connected to the crystal (around 22pF) you can get from the 58167 data > sheet. Try 10k for any pull-up resistors and 0.1uF ceramic for decoupling > capacitors. That should be a start. Good tip. Now the problem is what kind of software support there is for these. One thing I might do (eventually) is to cobble up a driver for the GG2 Bus+ for the Amiga *if* DMA is optional. If DMA is required, it's a no-go. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com Wed Sep 12 16:52:53 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Sep 12, 2001 01:50:14 pm" Message-ID: <200109122152.f8CLqrK17347@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> Sellam Ismail writes: > > As an aside, who do you think is responsible, both directly and > indirectly, for helping to put the Taliban in power? You guessed it! > Our own American Government. On this one we're in agreement. The Afghanistan war had us involved along with Gunga Dan Rather at the boarder. This is another stupidity of Cold-war thinking in a post cold-war world. > > > The FBI is handling this case. Three words: Wen Ho Lee. Enough said. You may be right. I've had less than good feelings about the bureau since the 80's. They used to be a big customer of mine in the Dec Field Service days. Technology was not their strong point even then... Don't ask. > > I don't think we'll ever really know who did it. I think we may already have a fairly good idea if the evidence being leaked from officials to the press is real. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 16:57:07 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Hayes Chronograph on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010912215707.34741.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mike Ford wrote: > >No bids as of 9pm EST. Item 1266277281. $9.00 > > $39 was the final bid, surprizingly low IMHO. Who got it? Not me :-( I was on vacation and missed it entirely. I'd be happy to get one for <$50. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com Wed Sep 12 16:58:08 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Sep 12, 2001 01:42:19 pm" Message-ID: <200109122158.f8CLw8o17381@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and > prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of > our actions over the past half-century. > > If you believe otherwise then you're in denial. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival If you believe it's only the half-century you're in denial and don't know Latin American history. We've done a number of things there which are the equivalent actions of those in Europe, the Middle East and Asia. It's been a problem since the days of Remember the Maine and before. Speak Softly and Carry A Big Stick. Manifest Destiny my ass. National self interest is often cloaked in other than the truth. (Sometimes we're in agreement... ) Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 12 17:01:40 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: August was the month for the Hayes Chronograph Message-ID: <20010912220140.45125.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> Apparently, I shouldn't have left town. Someone here mentioned the Chronograph that went for $39 on eBay during the third week of August. Shortly thereafter, from St. Louis, another one went, with box, for $10.50 after two bids. :-( Foo! -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com Wed Sep 12 17:03:38 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Terrorism and gov't action In-Reply-To: <000f01c13bc6$e315baa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Sep 12, 2001 02:09:53 pm" Message-ID: <200109122203.f8CM3cp17441@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I think the die is cast where Bin Laden is concerned. The gov is determined to > "get" him, and that's what they'll likely do. I just hope it's really he who is > determined later to have been the one responsible for this attack, for which he > seems to be getting the blame. If that's the case, no punishment will be severe > enough. > > Dick Anyone else think the Congress and CIA promise not to eliminate any leaders via covert action (after the Castro revelations in the '70's) is probabily becoming a liability causing this country not to do more in in this area. Bill From jrasite at eoni.com Wed Sep 12 17:05:51 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <3B9FDC3E.8B18C44F@eoni.com> I, for one, have appreciated the freedom allowed by the list owner to use this list as a forum for opinion. I have read every single 'OT' post with undivided attention and I appreciate all our diverse views. However, when Jay says enough, that means enough. It's his list. Thanks Jay, for putting up with us all. Jim Arnott From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Sep 12 17:12:54 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY In-Reply-To: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <004c01c13bd8$12219510$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> You know, I don't think you're going to get these guys to shut up. I'm starting to come to the point that I see that the people who are members of this list are birds of a feather, and they are going to want to talk about things among themselves besides just computers. The thought of going to another group of people to talk about these things doesn't appeal. A common bond of friendship (or pseudo-enmity, in some cases) has already been created, and to say that you have to go outside your group of friends to discuss certain topics might not be reasonable. You have not created a topic, you have created a community. The community is strongly interested in classic computers, but they need to talk about other things too. A solution other than shushing the OT discussions might be appropriate. I suggest an experiment: create a second list called classiccmp-OT@classiccmp.org, and see what happens. If it doesn't help, you can just delete the second list. I don't think it would be profitable to split things up too much, but it might help to just acknowledge that this community does have things to talk about other than computers. -- Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:21 PM To: classiccmp Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. Regards, Jay West From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com Wed Sep 12 17:20:11 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Sep 12, 2001 12:49:46 pm" Message-ID: <200109122220.f8CMKBb17515@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > What are the three strongest aspects of the United States? > > 1) Our economy Ok... but we don't know how much this fight will affect the economy. > 2) Our military We may have the weapons -- but if the economic impact is too great the funding may drop out quickly. I was hoping for a more effective speach last night to rally us to stand behind our free and open society and to keep us fighting to increase liberty in the world rather than reduce it. I'd like to see the evidence brought to a court and a trial of the guilty party before we rush off to extract retribution. This is a strength of the system and country. Lockerbee took a long time to get resolved -- the leader of my college alumni service went down on that plane and the story was covered heavily in the alumni magazine. > 3) Our leadership Maybe, but without the resolve of the public that doesn't seem too strong. Remember the '60's and '70's. When the casualty count goes up and the public can't see the reason for the fight this one drops in effectiveness. > I think it's important to remember not to jump to conclusions without > facts. Very true. And spin from both sides is not facts. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From optimus at canit.se Wed Sep 12 17:43:50 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: still more OT In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010911203127.02323eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <904.655T2500T14236173optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >Now CNN is reporting some people arrested on the George Washington Bridge >driving a van full of explosives. >It isn't "over" yet, And neither is this damn OT! Shut up shut up shut up! Even though I deleted all messages on the server before downloading the rest, you manage to slip a few in in the short while between my logging out from Pine and download via POP. If you want news updates, turn to the media instead of classiccmp! If you want to express your condoleances, do so in private! This has got absolutely nothing to do with computers, and I'm bloody sick of all the media vultures reporting about it day and night, there is no need for classiccmp to be devoted to this as well. If you can't talk about computers, go find a suitable venue for all this OT! -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A liberal is someone too poor to be conservative, and too rich to be a communist. From optimus at canit.se Wed Sep 12 17:32:07 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: ebay: Intel SnapIn 386 upgrade for IBM 5160 AT or IBM PS/2 models 50 or 60 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <457.655T350T14124283optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> The gates in my computer are AND, OR, and NOT, not Bill. >> --Tony Duell >Does this mean one of my old .sigs has ended up in an archive somewhere, >or what? No, you cited it in the badge thread a week or so ago, and I thought it was novel. The only archives it's ended up in is the classiccmp archive and my cookie file. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From optimus at canit.se Wed Sep 12 18:14:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <01Sep10.145553edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <762.656T1150T145279optimus@canit.se> Jeff Hellige skrev: > Check out this 4meg Mac Plus acting as a webserver. On topic >since the Mac Plus was introduced in 1986. > http://macplus.schoolvision.com/ A few years ago, there was a Mac consultant firm here which ran a competition called "Hack a Mac" or something to that effect, in which you could win X thousand if you managed to alter the front page on their Mac-based WWW server. IIRC, this server ran on a PowerMac, but they also had a WWW server running on a Mac SE, which is more or less the same as a Plus, only with ADB. They used it as a demo of the Mac's long-lasting potential. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 12 17:45:14 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:30 2005 Subject: IEEE-488 interface and Commodore Pet In-Reply-To: <20010912214621.42576.qmail@web20104.mail.yahoo.com> from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 12, 1 02:46:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2076 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010912/c061fd2b/attachment.ksh From west at tseinc.com Thu Sep 13 06:41:10 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: *sigh* Message-ID: <00de01c13c49$0ead4480$0101a8c0@jay> David and Jeffrey: (The few places where I'm being sarcastic are explicitly noted in a manner I hope Jeffrey will find amusing) David said.... ----------------- They were then able to take care of necessary business in due time. If I upset someone by posting an OT message to one of my mailing lists, and helping someone in the process, I say too bad. Suck it up. There are a few times when an OT post is accepted. Yesterday was one of them. But, yes, now is the time to kill this thread from the list, now that everything has calmed down some... ----------------- "They were then able..." I agree. You're (and others) first few OT posts were no problem. I think it was intended as a service, and I (as well as others I'm sure) appreciated it. "suck it up"? Your sentiment is duly noted. Thanks. I appreciate it. "There are a few times when an OT post..." Yup, you're absolutely correct. I agree. That is why I didn't say a single word for the first 100 or so posts. Matter of fact, it wasn't the fact there were 100 posts about the subject that set me off, it was two things: 1) when the last few in the thread started to become extremely inflamatory political rhetoric, and 2) when the discussion branched into a discussion of the skillset necessary to fly a 767 (and I'm a pilot, so I'm not unappreciative of the content of the discussion). Case closed - I'm not going to revisit that, it was hashed over excessively a month ago. "But yes, now is the time to kill this thread..." Why thank you for your decision. Jeffrey said... -------------------- However, I think some sensitiviy and leverage may be appropriate given the circumstances. The US has faced inarguably, the worst tragedy whithin it's history and thousands of lives we're lost yesterday. -------------------- "...sensitivity and leverage..." I couldn't agree more. As a point of reference, you might want to be aware that the majority of private messages I got about the last political discussion asked for the "reasonable limit of posts in an OT thread" to be FOUR. Or did they really mean 101 (geek humor, do the math). I have no intentions whatsoever to be a censor (or even a moderator as Sellam suggests). I had no problem with the sensitivity and leverage of allowing the thread to go on as long as it was. I ONLY stepped in when the thread starting branching out to other OT threads, AND the political rhetoric started becoming exceptionally inflamatory. And before you go and accuse me of insensitivity, you might consider that the WTC tragedy has affected me very personally and directly in a manner that I will not discuss here. Regards Jay West From west at tseinc.com Thu Sep 13 06:45:59 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: errata Message-ID: <00e801c13c49$bc38c200$0101a8c0@jay> oops... it was a typo, I meant 100, not 101 *GRIN* Is *THAT* what none of the programs I enter from the front panel work :) Jay From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 12 18:49:39 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Where are the Anti-OT measures? In-Reply-To: <3B9FCB36.8F221792@tinyworld.co.uk> from "Paul Williams" at Sep 12, 01 09:53:11 pm Message-ID: <200109122349.TAA00331@wordstock.com> I don't know if you noticed, but *every* mailing list is talking about this. For the good of everyone, this should be talked about! Bryan > > I'm not disputing the importance of this issue, but this isn't the > place. > From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 12 18:52:56 2001 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: We're saved! In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Sep 12, 01 01:51:04 pm Message-ID: <200109122352.TAA09696@wordstock.com> And watch out for the plastic knives - they are no more!! Bryan P.S. But how do I put the cream cheese on my bagel now? Some sort of disposable spatula? > > > I just heard on the news: no steak knives in First Class anymore. > > That'll thwart those pesky terrorists!! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Wed Sep 12 19:05:30 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: <3B9FF84A.CBC5B378@bedrocksys.com> Well, I'll second Jay's opinion. I hope others who feel likewise will do the same. I understand your need to discuss these events. I suggest you do so with your family, friends, and co-workers. Respectfully, John Jeffrey Ingber wrote: > > Thanks for the HTML. > > Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people > seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. > > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 16:21, Jay West wrote: > > I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. > > > > HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. > > > > What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jay West > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature From west at tseinc.com Thu Sep 13 07:17:19 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: New scores! Message-ID: <000701c13c4e$09558600$0101a8c0@jay> Just unpacked a truely rare and valuable item.... A CE alignment disc cartridge for an HP 7900A disc drive! woohoo! (also about five 7900A disc cartridges) Also just obtained three 7906D disc drives, three 13037 disc controller subsystems, three 13037 disc interface cards, about ten 7906 disc cartridges, and all associated cables! Of course, I am truely not worthy to own such gear, since I seem to think FOUR is 101 *GRIN* Jay West From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 12 19:16:02 2001 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart@bellsouth.net) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... In-Reply-To: Your message of 12 Sep 2001 16:07:13 -0400 . <1000325237.18315.7.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: In message <1000325237.18315.7.camel@DESK-2>, Jeffrey Ingber writes: >There was an hijack on a UPS cargo plane a number of years back by a >disgruntled UPS employee. He overpowered the skeleton flight crew and >attempted to crash the plane into the main UPS hub in Memphis, TN.=20 >Fortunately, the injured flight crew struggled back control of the plane >and overted a potential disaster. I think you're referring to an incident with a FedEx employee. (Either that or a freakishly similar one happened to FedEx.) The employee used some of the instruments already on board the plane, particularly a hammer, to injure the captain. He intended to crash the plane into the primary data center facility for the company. Brian L. Stuart From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 12 19:28:51 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Tim Olmstead passed away Message-ID: <010401c13beb$b02395c0$b9f19a8d@ajp166> From: Sellam Ismail > >Why can't someone simply inherit Tim's license and pass it on to someone >else who is willing to take over? Is it non-transferrable? There is no license, it was a handshake between people in Caldara and Tim. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 12 19:15:52 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: OT- Re: World Trade Crash and a bit about computers In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912125437.01f678f0@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: >No, I don't buy that people hate us just because we are an open, free and >prosperous nation. We have pissed people off around the world because of >our actions over the past half-century. Isn't thisone of the stages, where the victum feels guilty? Did the powers of the world generally screw up the middle east, Duh! Did the powers of the middle east make it much worse, again Duh! Big mistakes that come to mind; Artificial creation of a number of new or combined states after WWII. Brought the Shah of Iran to power. Walked away from the Shah of Iran. Many people are unhappy with "the American way", normally I have a fair amount of tolerance, but today that tolerance extends only to those who practice peacefull means. Disdain, but luke warm tolerance of terrorists and their quiet supportors has come to an end. What I hope can happen, since I really have no taste for mass killing, is that Bush will form a large and serious coalition, and one by one those nations that support terrorism will beg for mercy, and offer up all they hold to sue for peace. Perhaps with just a touch of luck the nations of the world can agree to a different path, and a series of large and bloody examples will not be required. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Sep 12 20:14:49 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Fwd: gulovsen@law.uiuc.edu: Wang disk conversion referral Message-ID: <20010912201449.A1527016@uiuc.edu> Hey all, If anyone can help this guy out, it'd be greatly appreciated... if you can help, please contact him directly. It sounds like they're willing to pay for the help too. Thanks... ----- Forwarded message from "Gulovsen, Grant" ----- Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:20:04 -0500 Reply-To: "Gulovsen, Grant" From: "Gulovsen, Grant" Subject: Wang disk conversion referral To: CCSP@LISTSERV.UIUC.EDU X-Loop: dtwright@uiuc.edu Despite asking all College of Law faculty members to convert their WANG-based documents to WordPerfect/Word many (many, many) years ago, we have a faculty member who now needs to pull an old article off of two 8" WANG disks (ugh). Does anyone out there know anyone who is capable of performing this onerous task? Obviously we would prefer to find something reasonably priced on campus, but he is willing to pay for a commercial service. Thanks (and he promises to convert all of his old WANG disks as part of this process). Sincerely, Grant Robert Gulovsen Director of Information Services University of Illinois College of Law 203A Law Building, MC-594 504 East Pennsylvania Avenue Champaign, IL 61820 phone: 217.244.0157 fax: 217.244.1478 email: gulovsen@law.uiuc.edu url: http://www.law.uiuc.edu ----- End forwarded message ----- - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 12 20:23:57 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY In-Reply-To: from "John W. Linville" at Sep 12, 2001 08:05:30 PM Message-ID: <200109130123.f8D1Nvv02677@shell1.aracnet.com> I couldn't agree more! I'm down to three mailing lists anymore, and this list is the only one I activelly read. I'm also noticing that it has more posts about this than the other two put together, and they're BOTH higher volume lists than this one! I for one would like to read something about classic computers, as I'm feeling the need for a refuge from the madness! Zane > Well, I'll second Jay's opinion. I hope others who feel likewise will > do the same. > > I understand your need to discuss these events. I suggest you do so > with your family, friends, and co-workers. > > Respectfully, > > John > > Jeffrey Ingber wrote: > > > > Thanks for the HTML. > > > > Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people > > seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. > > > > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > > > On Wed, 2001-09-12 at 16:21, Jay West wrote: > > > I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. > > > > > > HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. > > > > > > What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jay West > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Wed Sep 12 20:24:50 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: New scores! In-Reply-To: <000701c13c4e$09558600$0101a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010913022418.023c9d30@192.168.1.2> At 01:17 pm 13/09/2001, you wrote: >Of course, I am truely not worthy to own such gear, since I seem to think >FOUR is 101 *GRIN* Just put it down to a parity error with overflow :) -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.277 / Virus Database: 146 - Release Date: 05/Sep/2001 From optimus at canit.se Wed Sep 12 21:34:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Where are the Anti-OT measures? In-Reply-To: <200109122349.TAA00331@wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Bryan Pope wrote: > I don't know if you noticed, but *every* mailing list is talking about this. > For the good of everyone, this should be talked about! Actually, this is the *only* mailing I'm on where this has been mentioned in anything but passing. You need to learn to *shut up* or take your business elsewhere! If you feel that this needs to be discussed, feel free to do so, but *not here*! From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 12 21:37:06 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Please, more computers... Message-ID: <000801c13bfe$9d6c7fb0$b9f19a8d@ajp166> From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:10 PM Subject: Re: ENOUGH ALREADY >volume lists than this one! I for one would like to read something about >classic computers, as I'm feeling the need for a refuge from the madness! Please, radio, TV and whatnot is saturated with the news. I need a break from it. Right now I need something else even if off topic just not that one. Allison From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 22:01:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: CPM website (was: A great loss, on topic...) References: <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001f01c13c00$6333f2e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you look on the CP/M newsgroup there will undoubtedly be traffic about that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:20 PM Subject: Re: CPM website (was: A great loss, on topic...) > >If the unofficial CPM web site is his effort, what's going to happen to it > >now? Were other people involved so that the site will stay up in the future? > >It there is a chance this site will just disappear, someone let me know so I > >can spider the site and put it up on my servers where it will certainly > >continue to be available. > > For that matter, where is the site these days? I've lost track of it since > I've not done anything CP/M related the last couple of years. > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 22:05:34 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <017001c13bb9$9baa43a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <3B9FBA3E.BFB47ADF@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <003101c13c00$f4eb1c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> That would only make the blackguard a martyr! Let the Taliban and subsequently the entire Islamic community suffer for a while from the wrath of the western world, and then let the Taliban, or whoever by then is in charge in Afghanistan, give him up in exchange for an aid package, like the Yougoslav's did with Milosevic, that will render both the man and his memory impotent. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael L. Drew" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:40 PM Subject: Re: World Trade -- Acknowledgement > > > Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > > > > > After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. > > Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some > > unfinished business over there. > > This is the best plan I have heard so far.... > > Let the USA and Russia reduce their nuke stock piles > by tossing them in that shit hole until there nothing is left but glass and ash! > > Thanks Spike!!! > > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 12 22:11:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: WTC attack suspects in custody References: <200109121937.PAA30645@wordstock.com> <1000324820.18317.3.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: <004801c13c01$c40e7440$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The first line of the text says it all (From what is on the tube...). You can't rely on the first word from the tube, obviously. It turns out that the "ties" are apparently just wishful thinking except in one case, and that one's somewhat tenuous. We'll get a better story tomorrow. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Ingber" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:00 PM Subject: Re: WTC attack suspects in custody > > > > >From what is on the tube, I'm persuaded that the authorities have arrested a > > couple of people in Boston and a couple more in Florida with clear evidence of > > their involvement in the attacks and clear ties to that Usama bin Laden, or > > whatever he's called (the media can't seem to agree on a spelling, etc). The > > subtitle on the tube said the White House won't move for a declaration of war > > yet. I don't know what that means. With yesterdays remarks, however, and with > > the chief exec's remarks about the U.S. position toward any nation that harbors > > the perpetrators/sponsors of this terrorism, it could spell disaster for > > Afghanistan. > > I saw the arrest of three suspects on a train leaving Boston. Where did you hear that they had 'clear ties' to Bin Laden, or that actual arrests we're made in Florida? It was stated that perhaps two homes were rented by two pilot trainees from the Middle East, and they had vacated the residence before the weekend. I hope you're correct that they may have evidence of a connection to the suspects - but I haven't heard anything - at least on CNN and MSNB yet. Where did you hear this? Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 12 22:28:54 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: from "ajp166" at Sep 12, 2001 10:37:06 PM Message-ID: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> I'm finding myself trying to bring another system online, needing more space on an existing system and running short of space in my server rack. I seem to recall that it is possible to split a BA350 in half by pulling something out. Am I correct in assuming that this lets you plug the shelf into two seperate systems (in this case one Alpha/UNIX, and the other VAX/VMS). Anyone have any experience with this? Zane From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Sep 12 22:28:09 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: CPM website In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c13bbc$7055dbd0$d201a8c0@jay> <009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010912202515.00c26880@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 12:20 PM 9/12/01 -0700, Zane Healy wrote: >[RE: the Unofficial CP/M Website ] > >For that matter, where is the site these days? I've lost track of it since >I've not done anything CP/M related the last couple of years. > > Zane The list's Gene Buckle has it located here: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ Go up a level or two in the URL above to also find other cp/m goodies, including the walnut creek CP/M CDROM. I bought a copy of the Walnut Creek CD-ROM from Gene a while back, but I seem to have misplaced it. That's OK, since using a search engine on the web site is faster than searching the CD-ROM (sad but true that local storage is slower!) ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From west at tseinc.com Thu Sep 13 11:16:51 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: CPM website References: <005b01c13bbc$7055dbd0$d201a8c0@jay><009301c13b2c$4b8bfdb0$84ee9a8d@ajp166> <4.3.2.7.0.20010912202515.00c26880@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <001001c13c6f$7fdcd5a0$0101a8c0@jay> oh... duh... I'm already hosting that site. Nevermind LOL Jay ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Battle To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: Re: CPM website > At 12:20 PM 9/12/01 -0700, Zane Healy wrote: > >[RE: the Unofficial CP/M Website ] > > > >For that matter, where is the site these days? I've lost track of it since > >I've not done anything CP/M related the last couple of years. > > > > Zane > > > The list's Gene Buckle has it located here: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ > > Go up a level or two in the URL above to also find other cp/m goodies, > including the walnut creek CP/M CDROM. > > I bought a copy of the Walnut Creek CD-ROM from Gene a while back, but I > seem to have misplaced it. That's OK, since using a search engine on the > web site is faster than searching the CD-ROM (sad but true that local > storage is slower!) > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 12 23:16:38 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: CPM website In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010912202515.00c26880@postoffice.pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Sep 12, 2001 08:28:09 PM Message-ID: <200109130416.f8D4Gc209288@shell1.aracnet.com> > The list's Gene Buckle has it located here: > > http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/archive/unofficial/ Thanks for the pointer! > Go up a level or two in the URL above to also find other cp/m goodies, > including the walnut creek CP/M CDROM. I bought the CD-ROM, years ago when Walnut Creek was still offering it. I just took a look at the site. Wow, they've got some cool looking stuff up, makes me tempted to pull my Kaypro II out of storage! Zane From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Sep 12 23:19:24 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: essential CP/M files Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010912205030.00b6dde0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Since somebody brought up the issue of CP/M, I have a question for the old CP/M hands out there in classiccmp-land. Short version: If you were stuck on an island with a solar-powered CP/M machine and only one floppy disk in CP/M 2.2 format, which programs and utilities would you want on that disk? Longer version: I've been (slowly) adding support for emulating a double-density (dual density, actually) northstar disk controller in my Sol emulator, Solace. When I release this version of the emulator, I was wondering what disk images to present with it. I know full well that I might be the only person who will really use this, and a few dozen people may fire it up, mess with it a bit, and that's all. Still, having spent so much time developing it, I'd like to present a polished package. There is, fortunately, a wealth of CP/M files still out there on the net, but my goal isn't to collect them all and put them on my site. What I want is to have some essential/useful general CP/M programs, then collect just those that are specific to the Sol version of CP/M (or another S-100 machine using a VDM). Any opinions of what I should distribute with the emulator? Here is what I am planning on so far: STAT PIP ASM MAC DDT ED DUMP LOAD SUBMIT XSUB This list was chosen simply because these are the standard programs/utilities that D.R. shipped with CP/M 2.2 and are described in their user's manual. Unfortunately, I don't have FORMAT, MOVCPM, PUTSYS, GETSYS, or SYSGEN since all this has been bootstrapped up off of the single floppy that was in my machine when I got it, and that disk didn't include much of anything other than the boot tracks. I could recreate them, but it would take some time and it is time I'd rather spend in other ways. It probably doesn't matter anyway since there is no good reason to SYSGEN as the emulator has only one memory size. Although there are lots of replacement programs for those listed above that are undoubtedly better than the stock CP/M 2.2 programs, I am going to use the originals from D.R. and leave it up to any user who cares enough to customize it as they see fit. I plan on adding one disk utility to allow making a sector-by-sector copy of virtual disks so that new boot disks can be created. NSCOPY is the one I use on my real Sol, so it is probably the one I will distribute with Solace. As a reminder, the Sol uses an 8080, so I can't use a lot of the fancy Z80-ified programs that are out there. Thanks for any opinions you can share. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 12 23:43:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <762.656T1150T145279optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: On 13 Sep 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > Jeff Hellige skrev: > > > Check out this 4meg Mac Plus acting as a webserver. On topic > >since the Mac Plus was introduced in 1986. > > > http://macplus.schoolvision.com/ > > A few years ago, there was a Mac consultant firm here which ran a competition > called "Hack a Mac" or something to that effect, in which you could win X > thousand if you managed to alter the front page on their Mac-based WWW server. > IIRC, this server ran on a PowerMac, but they also had a WWW server running on > a Mac SE, which is more or less the same as a Plus, only with ADB. They used > it as a demo of the Mac's long-lasting potential. Interesting Iggy, but cut to the punchline. Did anyone win their competition, and what dis they do? - don > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Iggy tipsar: Koppla aldrig en C128-transformator till en A500. ?ven om > kontakterna ser likadana ut, ligger sp?nningarna fel. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 13 00:01:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: <001c01c13c11$29cb8980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just what's the point of sending an empty message with an attachment? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Ingber" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:43 PM Subject: Re: ENOUGH ALREADY From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 13 00:05:29 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: Message-ID: <002401c13c11$b5314460$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> See below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:50 PM Subject: Re: World Trade -- Acknowledgement > On Wed, 12 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > As an aside, who do you think is responsible, both directly and > indirectly, for helping to put the Taliban in power? You guessed it! > Our own American Government. > Nobody ever said the U.S. gov was smart ... just expedient. Of course there's a civil war there again. I don't know who supports whom at this point > > > I think the die is cast where Bin Laden is concerned. The gov is > > determined to "get" him, and that's what they'll likely do. I just > > hope it's really he who is determined later to have been the one > > responsible for this attack, for which he seems to be getting the > > blame. If that's the case, no punishment will be severe enough. > > The FBI is handling this case. Three words: Wen Ho Lee. Enough said. > > I don't think we'll ever really know who did it. > Well, they have been known to get things right ... I think in '56 they got that John Gilbert Graham fellow who put the bomb on the airliner in order to collect life insurance on his mother ... > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 13 00:06:26 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Where are the Anti-OT measures? References: <3B9FCB36.8F221792@tinyworld.co.uk> Message-ID: <002a01c13c11$d7a1cba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah ... though nearly all popular discussion groups are packed with it ... see slashdot, for example. Maybe that's where it should go. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Williams" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 2:53 PM Subject: Where are the Anti-OT measures? > I'm not disputing the importance of this issue, but this isn't the > place. > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 13 00:13:04 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467091@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <004f01c13c12$c4c1d600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> please, Please, PLEASE, turn off HTML! Most folks here don't use Windows, though I do. If you care whether people read your contributions, you'll TURN OFF RTF/HTML. Most of the list users can't interpret it and many simply discard HTML messages. If one translates it to plain text, the formatting, which you may perceive as really COOL, is lost, as is the implicit structure. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: David Woyciesjes To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' Cc: 'west@tseinc.com' Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 3:41 PM Subject: RE: ENOUGH ALREADY -----Original Message----- From: Jay West [mailto:west@tseinc.com] I sincerely agree as to the tragedy of recent US events. My heart goes out to all affected. HOWEVER, this is a classic computer mailing list. The discussion on the WTC stuff is very interesting, but it belongs on all the myraid of other lists present on the net for this purpose. What on EARTH posessed people to think we needed blow by blow updates on this list about current world events? Think - if you have to put "OT" in the subject of your message, it probably doesn't belong here. Regards, Jay West Jay --- Thank you for your sympathy... What possesed us to post updates here? Since I was the first to mention it (IIRC, I might be wrong), I'll answer... Simple. Many people here were stuck at work, without any source of news, to find out what was happening. Major news websites were useless, since they were all swamped yesterday. I know of a couple people, who didn't know a thing about it, until I sent a message. They were then able to take care of necessary business in due time. If I upset someone by posting an OT message to one of my mailing lists, and helping someone in the process, I say too bad. Suck it up. There are a few times when an OT post is accepted. Yesterday was one of them. But, yes, now is the time to kill this thread from the list, now that everything has calmed down some... It's time to help your neighbors. Call your local Red Cross, and make an app't to donate blood. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 13 00:16:22 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Terrorism and gov't action References: <200109122203.f8CM3cp17441@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <006901c13c13$3abe9be0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I saw Colin Powell or someone pretty "up there" discuss revising the "no assassinations" policy. It's the old, "I want to kill something!" attitude. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Pechter" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 4:03 PM Subject: Terrorism and gov't action > Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > > > I think the die is cast where Bin Laden is concerned. The gov is determined to > > "get" him, and that's what they'll likely do. I just hope it's really he who is > > determined later to have been the one responsible for this attack, for which he > > seems to be getting the blame. If that's the case, no punishment will be severe > > enough. > > > > Dick > > Anyone else think the Congress and CIA promise not to eliminate any leaders > via covert action (after the Castro revelations in the '70's) is > probabily becoming a liability causing this country not to do more in in > this area. > > > Bill > > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Sep 13 00:16:15 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: <3BA0411E.5A9A3092@internet1.net> Thats about they way I feel too. Classic Computers can wait. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeffrey Ingber wrote: > Right now, it would seem that you are in the minority - as most people > seem to have more pressing issues than Classic Computers. > > Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) From sipke at wxs.nl Thu Sep 13 00:39:58 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: World Trade -- Acknowledgement References: <003c01c13b8f$829d6600$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <017001c13bb9$9baa43a0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> <3B9FBA3E.BFB47ADF@drewtech.com> <003101c13c00$f4eb1c40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <024f01c13c16$87348e00$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The Taliban doesn't accept a lot of aid, especially not if it is tainted with christian look and feel. They would be very content with a 5m thick concrete wall around the country in order to isolate themselves, save a small hole to export/import terrorists thru. Sipke de Wal ------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Richard Erlacher To: Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 5:05 AM Subject: Re: World Trade -- Acknowledgement > That would only make the blackguard a martyr! > > Let the Taliban and subsequently the entire Islamic community suffer for a while > from the wrath of the western world, and then let the Taliban, or whoever by > then is in charge in Afghanistan, give him up in exchange for an aid package, > like the Yougoslav's did with Milosevic, that will render both the man and his > memory impotent. > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael L. Drew" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 1:40 PM > Subject: Re: World Trade -- Acknowledgement > > > > > > > > Sipke de Wal wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > After all, the US might NUKE the Afghan valley that he hides in. > > > Russia would in all likelyhood protest only mildly, they stilll have some > > > unfinished business over there. > > > > This is the best plan I have heard so far.... > > > > Let the USA and Russia reduce their nuke stock piles > > by tossing them in that shit hole until there nothing is left but glass and > ash! > > > > Thanks Spike!!! > > > > > > > From fernande at internet1.net Thu Sep 13 00:58:57 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... References: <762.656T1150T145279optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BA04B21.A3C83269@internet1.net> Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Iggy Drougge wrote: > but they also had a WWW server running on > a Mac SE, which is more or less the same as a Plus, only with ADB. They used > it as a demo of the Mac's long-lasting potential. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 13 01:47:59 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Tim Olmstead passed away In-Reply-To: <01K88XOWU8O2984PNO@cc.usu.edu> Message-ID: <006e01c13c20$08017da0$1ec7fec7@pcat> > I saw a note over on comp.os.cpm this morning saying that Tim > Olmstead has > succumbed to his cancer and passed away. Since the Caldera license to > distribute CP/M was in his name, this will affect the free > distribution > of CP/M until someone can pry a new license out of Caldera. > Shit. There goes a great one folks. He was a good friend to me and to many others. He will be missed. Greatly. As far as Caldera is concerned, if they have any questions they can contact me. I've mirrored Tim's stuff on the Retrocomputing Archive and there it will stay. G. From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 13 01:41:32 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> References: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20010913014132.A23360@mrbill.net> On Wed, Sep 12, 2001 at 08:28:54PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm finding myself trying to bring another system online, needing more space > on an existing system and running short of space in my server rack. I seem > to recall that it is possible to split a BA350 in half by pulling something > out. Am I correct in assuming that this lets you plug the shelf into two > seperate systems (in this case one Alpha/UNIX, and the other VAX/VMS). > Anyone have any experience with this? I have the manual in PDF around here somewhere. It explains how to do this. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 13 01:50:32 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: CPM website (was: A great loss, on topic...) In-Reply-To: <005b01c13bbc$7055dbd0$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: <006f01c13c20$61fbb370$1ec7fec7@pcat> > If the unofficial CPM web site is his effort, what's going to > happen to it > now? Were other people involved so that the site will stay up > in the future? > It there is a chance this site will just disappear, someone > let me know so I > can spider the site and put it up on my servers where it will > certainly > continue to be available. Jay, thanks to you, you've already got a copy of it. :) It's part of the Retrocomputing Archive site that I host on your system. It's not going anywhere. G. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Sep 13 01:52:20 2001 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Tim Olmstead passed away In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <007001c13c20$a2824170$1ec7fec7@pcat> > > I saw a note over on comp.os.cpm this morning saying that > Tim Olmstead > > has succumbed to his cancer and passed away. Since the > Caldera license > > to distribute CP/M was in his name, this will affect the free > > distribution of CP/M until someone can pry a new license out of > > Caldera. > > Why can't someone simply inherit Tim's license and pass it on > to someone > else who is willing to take over? Is it non-transferrable? > Sellam, as far as I know, it doesn't even exist as a physical document. G. From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 13 01:55:46 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010912234615.01c38640@209.185.79.193> Why yes you can. I've got the shelf manual and I'll type in the description: Turn off the shelf Remove the blowers Discharge any static buildup Make sure the SHELF_OK jumpers are installed correctly on either the backplane or on both the terminator boarrd and the jumper board as described in Chapter 2 Install the BA35X-MB terminator board in the backplane connector behind slot 5 Install the unused BA35X-MC jumper board in the backplane connector behind slot 1 Connect the SCSI cable for device addresses 0,2,4 to the JA1 connector Connect the SCSI cable for device addresses 1,3,5, and 6 to the JB1 connector. Replace the blowers Connect the power and verify that all devices are active So it basically looks like you swap the terminator and the jumper boards and then you get two busses, one with three devices and one with four devices on it. --Chuck At 08:28 PM 9/12/01 -0700, you wrote: >I'm finding myself trying to bring another system online, needing more space >on an existing system and running short of space in my server rack. I seem >to recall that it is possible to split a BA350 in half by pulling something >out. Am I correct in assuming that this lets you plug the shelf into two >seperate systems (in this case one Alpha/UNIX, and the other VAX/VMS). >Anyone have any experience with this? > > Zane From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Sep 13 03:09:21 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: <200109130809.KAA12398@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 12 Sep, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I seem to recall that it is possible to split a BA350 in half by > pulling something out. What is a BA350? I know the BA23, BA123, BA2xx and BA4xx enclosures, but never heard of a BA350. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From alan.pearson at cramer.com Thu Sep 13 04:42:50 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #716 Message-ID: > What kind of security is going to protect against that kind of attack? I > have a knife like object I use to open my mail, its called a CIA Letter > opener, made of glass reinforced nylon it has no xray image, yet is strong > enough to be pounded thru 5/8" plywood without breaking. Three things leap to mind: 1. ban all hand luggage 2. perform security checks right before boarding the plane as well as at the gate and departures entrance 3. have at least three armed counter-terrorist specialists on every flight to cover front, middle & rear sections of the plane. Maybe even six. One thing's for sure - until airlines/governments implement these kind of measures there's *no way* I'm getting on another plane. No way. -al From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 13 08:19:52 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: <200109130809.KAA12398@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> <200109130809.KAA12398@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20010913081952.E24473@mrbill.net> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:09:21AM +0200, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > What is a BA350? I know the BA23, BA123, BA2xx and BA4xx enclosures, > but never heard of a BA350. BA350 is a seven-slot Storageworks SCSI disk enclosure. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 13 09:32:54 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: *sigh* Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467094@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Jay --- Thanks for the smack, honestly, really. I do owe you a big apology for my rash message. I forgot to count to 5 (and think) before hitting the Send button. I know this is no excuse, but I replied rashly, in the heat of the moment, and out of anger. I also didn't realize exactly who you were either, in relation to this list. Again, big apologies to you, Jay. My bad. ! ... And before ! you go and accuse me of insensitivity, you might consider that the WTC ! tragedy has affected me very personally and directly in a ! manner that I will ! not discuss here. I'm not gonna ask, don't want to know, but my prayers go to you and yours, along with everyone else affected by this... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From jss at subatomix.com Thu Sep 13 08:14:29 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Paging Bill Bradford Message-ID: <20010913081059.A38150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> My e-mail is not getting through to Bill Bradford: jss@lepton$ mailq /var/spool/mqueue (1 request) ----Q-ID---- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient------------ f88GZoL28038 999 Sat Sep 8 11:35 (Deferred: 450 : Helo command rejected:) Bill, if you're listening, could you check this out? Thanks! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Sep 13 10:42:56 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... Message-ID: >Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. No, the SE was an 8mhz 68000 just like the plus. The SE was basically a newer plus (it had a built in HD or 2 800k floppies, ADB, an expansion slot, and a newer ROM). Later the SE was upgraded to having the SuperDrive (not the NEW superdrive that apple has recycled the name for, but rather the original 1.4mb drive that could read MFS, HFS, DOS, and ProDOS) There WAS an SE/30 that was a 16mhz (33mhz?) 68030... it was basically an SE, but with the faster processor and 8 simm slots rather than 4... I think THAT is the Mac you are thinking of. -chris From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 10:56:08 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: <200109130809.KAA12398@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200109130328.f8D3Ssx07363@shell1.aracnet.com> Message-ID: >On 12 Sep, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >> I seem to recall that it is possible to split a BA350 in half by >> pulling something out. >What is a BA350? I know the BA23, BA123, BA2xx and BA4xx enclosures, >but never heard of a BA350. A BA350 is a StorageWorks shelf. It has a total of 8 slots, one of which MUST be used for a power SBB (System Building Block), and a second that can be used for one. The second power slot and the remaining 6 slots can be used for drive SBB's, which are typically one slot Hard Drives, but can also be CD-ROM's and DLT drives (both 3 slot I believe, and I don't think there is a 8mm tape option), or a 1 slot 4mm tape drive. Unfortunatly all I've got are disks. The BA350 shelf is Narrow SCSI, there is also a BA356 which is wide SCSI and has an additional model where the cables plug in that takes a 'personality model', this dictates if the shelf is Narrow or Wide. That's just the single shelf config's. There are also shelves that take things such as a HSZ50 which plugs into a SCSI DIFF card and can do RAID and stuff, or another HSsomething that plugs into a DSSI bus. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Thu Sep 13 11:07:43 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... Message-ID: Mike Kopplin had an HP 200LX palmtop (i80186, 2MB Ram, MS-DOS 5.0, powered by AC wall wart or 2 AA batteries; not entirely OT, since the 200LX model didn't come out until 1994, but the LX line started in 1991) running as a web server for 16 months between April 16, 1999 and September 4, 2000. For more information see: http://www.technoir.nu/hplx/welcome.html From kentborg at borg.org Thu Sep 13 11:25:19 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <3BA04B21.A3C83269@internet1.net>; from fernande@internet1.net on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:58:57AM -0400 References: <762.656T1150T145279optimus@canit.se> <3BA04B21.A3C83269@internet1.net> Message-ID: <20010913122519.A23220@borg.org> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:58:57AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. An SE was a Plus with a fan, a different floppy disk, a second drive bay for either a HD or second floppy (which, with the external floppy jack was the only Mac that could do 3 floppies using stock Apple hardware), it had an internal expansion connector (supposedly "SE" stood for "System Expansion", not "Slightly Enhanced"), and it didn't have the Plus's analogue board problems. Yes, it also had ADB (but hard power switch, not soft as with Mac IIs). The SE/30 was an SE with a 16 (?) MHz 68030. -kb, the now Linux-y Kent who could once name every model Macintosh ever sold--but that was a long time ago when the total list was less than 2 dozen items long. From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Sep 13 12:00:28 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Secure cockpit doors? References: <008a01c13b95$1eacede0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010912125924.00b0be58@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <3BA0E62C.3EB654DE@tiac.net> As a pilot... The pilot has total responsibility for the safe completion of their flight. Totally secure doors are impractical for long flights due to the need to rotate the crew, and the crews in-flight needs (getting up and moving around, getting food, and using the toilet, etc). Given the responsibility the pilot carries, I think the pilot should be armed. The FAA (now headed by the looser who ran MassPort and Logan during its years of failing security grades) has just imposed a series of knee-jerk reactions, none of which would have prevented this type of attack. The only solution is an armed response on the plane itself. Sky Marshalls, as are emplyed by El-Al, are the ONLY PROVEN effective measure. Several laws have to change for this. Currently its not legal to carry a loaded weapon on an aircraft. Perhaps some undercover people trained in martial arts, and with a near-leathal power stun gun? Gordon Zaft wrote: > At 09:46 AM 9/12/2001 -0700, you wrote: > > >It seem logical that, after seeing what a hijacker COULD do, the airlines > >will install secure doors to the cockpit. The idea being that if a hijacker > >takes the plane, the most he can do is either blow up the plane, or command > >the pilots to fly to a certain destination but they would not be able to get > >into the cockpit themselves. This would be expensive, and it would take time > >but I think that they should consider it. > > I saw this discussed last night on NBC (I think). It's not > possible to make cockpit doors really strong, apparently; something about > the airplane's pressure vessel and what would happen in a decompression > means the door can't be too strong or it will screw up the plane (for > example, blow the pilots out the windows in the event of a decompression > elsewhere in the plane, or something). Perhaps someone with more knowledge > about this can comment. > > GZ From lgwalker at mts.net Thu Sep 13 12:22:29 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Next Megapixel display Message-ID: <3BA0A505.22961.245807F1@localhost> I'm gradually getting my collection esconced in my new home in the boonies of central Manitoba. In trying to set up my beloved Next Color slab I'm dismayed that the 17" Megapixel isn't functioning. Before, the monitor was a bit flakey and would go to sleep on me occasionally. I've tried to find specs but the only useful one I've found is in the Peanuts FAQ archive. Unfortunately it gives no descriptions of the external controls. On the lower left side of the display is a button with a screen and vertical line symbol which doesn't appear to be working. What is it's function ? I had imagined it was a screen blanker. Also since I get static discharge on the screen when I depress the on-off in either position what is the ON position of the switch. In to the cabinet or protruding from the face. I've forgotten. I've been avoiding opening up since there's so many other pressing things to be done and you can't see thru the air-vents to see any life. Thanks for any help. Lawrence appear to be working. Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 13 12:20:34 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Spliting a DEC BA350 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 13, 2001 08:56:08 AM Message-ID: <200109131720.f8DHKYq32520@narnia.int.dittman.net> > A BA350 is a StorageWorks shelf. It has a total of 8 slots, one of which > MUST be used for a power SBB (System Building Block), and a second that can > be used for one. The second power slot and the remaining 6 slots can be > used for drive SBB's, which are typically one slot Hard Drives, but can > also be CD-ROM's and DLT drives (both 3 slot I believe, and I don't think > there is a 8mm tape option), or a 1 slot 4mm tape drive. Unfortunatly all > I've got are disks. The BA350 shelf is Narrow SCSI, there is also a BA356 > which is wide SCSI and has an additional model where the cables plug in > that takes a 'personality model', this dictates if the shelf is Narrow or > Wide. The BA356 is a wide shelf even if the 8-bit personality module is installed. The 8-bit personality module just lets you use wide shelves/drives with narrow controllers. A wide drive will not work in a narrow shelf. > That's just the single shelf config's. There are also shelves that take > things such as a HSZ50 which plugs into a SCSI DIFF card and can do RAID > and stuff, or another HSsomething that plugs into a DSSI bus. The HSZxx are differential SCSI, the HSDxx are DSSI, the HSJxx are CI, and the HSGxx are fibre channel. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 12:28:16 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Ok, We all need a topic to take our minds of the WTC attack. Here's one I've been meaning to bring up, surely it will generate a lot of discussion. In a recent thread, Tony Duell expressed a lack of interest in the emulators and simulators of old iron that are now circulating. His reasons centered around his love of hardware. From my perspective, it appears that for Tony, the experience of computing cannot be separated from the experiencing of the computer. My reading of this mailinglist's charter leads me to conclude that the group is here for the benefit of the Tonys (BTW, Tony, I'm *not* picking on you) in the world, those for whom the hardware *is* the end-all be-all of the Classic _Computer_ experience. I confess I don't like that- the Classic Computers for which I lust the most will forever remain inaccessible (and few examples will even continue to exist). However, as both an RJE operator and as a mainframe user, I found the experience to be more about the _computing_ and less about the _computer_. Exceptions included (back in the 70s) of building an IMSAI, a SOL, hacking a KIM-1, etc. But after we got the hardware running, the fun part was in creating the _computing environment_. So, I think the formal name and the charter of this group should change to reflect an interest in Class Computing. The only real change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions of the Classic Operating Systems would be similarly on-topic. I'm not sure how many of you have ever thought about this; but now that I've broached the subject, whaddy'all think? Regards, -doug quebbeman From Diff at Mac.com Thu Sep 13 12:54:10 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:31 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... References: <762.656T1150T145279optimus@canit.se> <3BA04B21.A3C83269@internet1.net> <20010913122519.A23220@borg.org> Message-ID: <001601c13c7d$18e5b390$0501000a@laboffice> If I remember correctly, Apple had originally planned on using the x (Mac IIx, etc.) to designate an updated version of a machine, but decided not to name the SE/30 the SEx for obvious reasons. Interesting bit of trivia. Zach > The SE/30 was an SE with a 16 (?) MHz 68030. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 13 13:09:04 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467096@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. ! ! No, the SE was an 8mhz 68000 just like the plus. The SE was ! basically a ! newer plus (it had a built in HD or 2 800k floppies, ADB, an ! expansion ! slot, and a newer ROM). Later the SE was upgraded to having the ! SuperDrive (not the NEW superdrive that apple has recycled ! the name for, ! but rather the original 1.4mb drive that could read MFS, HFS, ! DOS, and ! ProDOS) Properly known as the 'Macintosh SE FDHD'. Yep, I got one of these, running OS 6.0.7, 50MB HDD, and 4MB RAM... ! There WAS an SE/30 that was a 16mhz (33mhz?) 68030... it was ! basically an ! SE, but with the faster processor and 8 simm slots rather than 4... I ! think THAT is the Mac you are thinking of. Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU and 0.5K of L1 cache! Have two of these, OS 7.1 and 7.0.1... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 13 13:05:25 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Paging Bill Bradford In-Reply-To: <20010913081059.A38150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20010913081059.A38150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010913130525.P24473@mrbill.net> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 08:14:29AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > My e-mail is not getting through to Bill Bradford: > jss@lepton$ mailq > /var/spool/mqueue (1 request) >----Q-ID---- --Size-- -----Q-Time----- ------------Sender/Recipient------------ > f88GZoL28038 999 Sat Sep 8 11:35 > (Deferred: 450 : Helo command rejected:) > > Bill, if you're listening, could you check this out? Thanks! bash-2.03$ nslookup subatomix.com Server: localhost Address: 127.0.0.1 Name: subatomix.com Address: 24.94.226.65 bash-2.03$ nslookup 24.94.226.95 Server: localhost Address: 127.0.0.1 Name: okc-94-226-95.mmcable.com Address: 24.94.226.95 DNS be brokie. I guess I"ll have to turn off the reject-mailhosts-with-bad-dns requirement.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 13 13:12:52 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > So, I think the formal name and the charter of this group should > change to reflect an interest in Class Computing. The only real > change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators > would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming > the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions > of the Classic Operating Systems would be similarly on-topic. > > I'm not sure how many of you have ever thought about this; but > now that I've broached the subject, whaddy'all think? I don't think I would have ever considered emulators/simulators or the programming of such, or classic operating systems, to be off-topic. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Sep 13 13:30:40 2001 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: classiccmp-digest V1 #716 In-Reply-To: ; from alan.pearson@cramer.com on Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:42:50AM +0100 References: Message-ID: <20010913203040.A16685@frodo> On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 10:42:50AM +0100, Alan Pearson wrote: > > What kind of security is going to protect against that kind of attack? I > > have a knife like object I use to open my mail, its called a CIA Letter > > opener, made of glass reinforced nylon it has no xray image, yet is strong > > enough to be pounded thru 5/8" plywood without breaking. > > Three things leap to mind: > > 1. ban all hand luggage > 2. perform security checks right before boarding the plane as well as at the > gate and departures entrance Won't help. You can easily hide a knife somewhere in/under your clothes on your body. No need for hand luggage. And if the knifes are free of metals you won't find them - save by strip searching _every_ passenger. I don't think having a bunch of security guards strip search (including closely checking out bodily orifices) every passenger before every flight is going to make flying more popular. And it still won't provide absolute safety, even at this cost. > 3. have at least three armed counter-terrorist specialists on every flight > to cover front, middle & rear sections of the plane. Maybe even six. That _might_ help a little. But the extreme costs and logistics involved in this will make it prohibitive for prolonged use. And it can be overcome to: Just have a bunch of people with very good memory fly the flight in question for a while and have them check out the passengers. They might spot some of the antiterrorists. And on doomsday, the antiterrorists just will be neutralized first - at least it will be tried. > One thing's for sure - until airlines/governments implement these kind of > measures there's *no way* I'm getting on another plane. No way. Then you might better forget about flying. It is _extremly_ hard - if not impossible - to guard against a _very_ determined suicide attacker. There is an old rule in the security business: You _cannot_ reach absolute security, you just can make the price of breaching the defenses much higher than what can be gained by it. This will protect against _most_ possible attackers, but unfortunately not against all. There will always be someone who is willing to pay _any_ price to breach a given defense. And on very bad days, some of those might succeed. Regards, Alex. -- We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being increasingly capable. -- Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs From rhblakeman at kih.net Thu Sep 13 13:49:36 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Secure cockpit doors? In-Reply-To: <3BA0E62C.3EB654DE@tiac.net> Message-ID: -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Shannon -> Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:00 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Secure cockpit doors? -> -> -> As a pilot... -> -> Given the responsibility the pilot carries, I think the pilot -> should be armed. Might as well say bye to everyone when the plane leaves as if anyone has a firearm on an aircraft the results could be worse than if the plane was hijacked (normal hijack, not like these last ones). Now to arm the aircrew with a stungun would create another "civil rights" load of crap. Some sort of non-intrusive, non-harmful, diabling gas is about the only viable thing and it has to be where the front crew is isolated from it (obviously). Better to have a full load of passengers sleeping off some sort of gas than to have a plane used to smash into a building. I'm also surprised that the rear crew (attendants and off duty flight crew) don't have a duress alarm on their body that can be tripped easily (but not accidentally) to signal the secured crew that something is wrong, along with a camera system that they can view the passenger areas to see what may be happening. I've pulled late night guardhouse duty at the main gate of (the now closed) Chanute AFB in IL and we had a duress trigger on our belt that if tripped notified the main desk and a coded message was radioed to the patrols over the radio without notifying anyone able to receive it that something was going on. The y also had a radio call back system that included a code word each day that if it was included in the reply it would verify the duress situation, as well as if no response was recieved. Everyone thinks the bushes around entry gates are there purely for looks and landscape - they make nice barricades for the other patrols to observe and snipe from in the event that becomes necessary. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 13 13:56:30 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467097@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! ...In a recent thread, Tony Duell expressed a lack of interest in the ! emulators and simulators of old iron that are now circulating. His ! reasons centered around his love of hardware. From my perspective, ! it appears that for Tony, the experience of computing cannot be ! separated from the experiencing of the computer.... ! ! ...I'm not sure how many of you have ever thought about this; but ! now that I've broached the subject, whaddy'all think? I dunno about splitting the list. Even my interest is in the hardware side, like Tony, I'm sure there are many here that go both ways. And there will be new guys, that are unsure about thier preference, and seeing discussions about both sides in one place here, will definitely be helpful to them... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 13:56:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >So, I think the formal name and the charter of this group should >change to reflect an interest in Class Computing. The only real >change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators >would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming >the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions >of the Classic Operating Systems would be similarly on-topic. I never realized the subject was off topic, and I've never heard it refered to being off topic. With the possible exception of a topic I started a year or two ago about the iOpener, and wanting to get one to convert into a 'PDP-11'. While you might be talking about a simulator, the software you're running on it typically is on topic. In all honesty, I'm starting to lean towards emulation myself. Especially on systems I don't really do anything with. I'm short on space and it costs a lot to store what I've got. Plus this next month our electricity prices will be going up by 30% :^( Somehow the classic hardware made a lot more sense when I was single (and my wife has never complained about it at all). OTOH, my wife and I just bought a 4-Slot Neo Geo cabinet and a bunch of cartridges for it, because for some things emulation just doesn't cut it. Also on my VMS systems that are under heavy use at home, there is no way I'm emulating them :^) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Sep 13 14:21:38 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: IBM System 23 Message-ID: Does anyone know what current options there are for using IBM System 23 software? This can include emulators, compatible machines or OSes, pretty much anything that is more current than a true 23 and will run the 23 software. I have ONE program that I can't convince the boss to upgrade, and it currently runs on the System 23... the problem is, I am down to my last working machine, and I fear it too will die soon. So I am looking for a way to move the software to a more current computer. I was thinking of a System 23 emulator running on a current Mac or PC, but I have not been successful in finding such (nor do I have any idea how I would transfer the software, but one step at a time) Anyone have any advice? (other than, stop using the software, or upgrade it to a new application... as both ideas have fallen on deaf ears for the last 4 years) Thanks -chris From red at bears.org Thu Sep 13 14:42:10 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <20010913122519.A23220@borg.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Kent Borg wrote: > On Thu, Sep 13, 2001 at 01:58:57AM -0400, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. > > An SE was a Plus with a fan, a different floppy disk, a second drive As I understand it, the SE also had an improved (i.e. non-cycle-stealing) raster display section as compared to the Plus. ok r. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Thu Sep 13 14:56:22 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Paging Bill Bradford In-Reply-To: Bill Bradford "Re: Paging Bill Bradford" (Sep 13, 13:05) References: <20010913081059.A38150-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <20010913130525.P24473@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <10109132056.ZM5995@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 13, 13:05, Bill Bradford wrote: > bash-2.03$ nslookup subatomix.com > Server: localhost > Address: 127.0.0.1 > > Name: subatomix.com > Address: 24.94.226.65 > > bash-2.03$ nslookup 24.94.226.95 > Server: localhost > Address: 127.0.0.1 > > Name: okc-94-226-95.mmcable.com > Address: 24.94.226.95 > > DNS be brokie. I guess I"ll have to turn off the reject-mailhosts-with-bad-dns > requirement.. Um, not necessarily. You mis-typed the IP address on the second lookup. subatomix.com is indeed a valid domain name, registered by Tierranet whose nameserver (ns1.domaindiscover.com) will give you the A record and MX record for subatomix (both point to 24.94.226.65). However, there's no necessary correspondence between the domain name registrar, DNS provider for forward lookups, and ISP who provides the actual connection and address (usually also the DNS provider for reverse lookups). The reverse lookup for 24.94.226.65 comes out as okc-94-226-65.mmcable.com which isn't surprising. The reverse lookup is done by the mmcable servers, since they own the address space. If you look at Jeffrey's home page, it's URL is http://home.mmcable.com/xoraxax/, so that fits. Whether your mailserver will accept mail directly from Jeffrey's machine probably depends on what his machine is calling itself in the HELO and whether your mailserver does a reverse and forward lookup to check (as you've implied). If so, possible solutions are (1) turn off the double check, (2) have Jeffrey's machine give its mmcable.com name when sending mail, (3) have Jeffrey's machine relay mail through mmcable's server (assuming mmcable really is his ISP), or (4) persuade mmcable (again, assuming they're his ISP) to include his properly registered domain name in their DNS. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 13:00:19 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 13, 1 01:28:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4489 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010913/4431704e/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Thu Sep 13 15:13:46 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... Message-ID: >Properly known as the 'Macintosh SE FDHD'. Yep, I got one of these, running >OS 6.0.7, 50MB HDD, and 4MB RAM... Yeah, I got screwed out of mine... I bought my SE and had heard rumor about them going to FDHDs, and I SPECIFICALLY asked the Computer Factory salesman if they were going to switch. He told me no, that the rumor was false, so I shelled out my $2500 for the SE. Two days later, I was in the Computer Factory, and what did they have... big signs talking about the just arrived SE FDHDs!!! Same price, newer drives! They refused to swap my machine... and you can't tell me that they didn't already have the new ones on order if they were there 2 days later... the bastard was just trying to clear out inventory and take advantage of a young teenager. -chris From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 13 15:27:49 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467099@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 14:57:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Sep 13, 1 11:12:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2191 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010913/5c7cf54d/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 15:00:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467097@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> from "David Woyciesjes" at Sep 13, 1 02:56:30 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 637 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010913/ab6e44c6/attachment.ksh From g at kurico.com Thu Sep 13 15:29:50 2001 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B97C0C900107FE6@mail.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) >> change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators >> would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming >> the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions > >Why the last exclusion? I've never heard of a discussion on how to >diagnose hardware faults using modern test equipment being branded as >off-topic. Nor using modern parts to repair old machines. Nor using >modern machines as an aid to restoring/preserving old hardware. Why >should writing emulators be any different. Even more to the point, chances are extremely good that the emulator will be written in a language that is _on_ topic (e.g. c, c++, x86 assembler, 68K assembler, etc). I think however that we can all agree that any discussions about _anything_ written in c# is OT ;) George From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 15:29:12 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) Starter Kit Available Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225734@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Calling all ten-heads... Thanks to the efforts of many people for preserving the ITS operating system, and to the more recent efforts by Mirian Crzig Lennox in creating an ITS starter kit, interested parties can now run ITS on Bob Supnik's SIMH PDP-10 sim. You'll find Mirian's ITS starter kit at: http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its Of course, you'll need Bob's simulator; you can check out Zane Healy's emulators page, or pick up a copy at: http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/files/simh26b.zip Additionally, Mirian has also created a mailing list: "To subscribe, send an empty e-mail with "subscribe" in the subject to . The list address itself is . You must be subscribed to the list in order to post, to prevent spam (but the list is not archived on the web, so you don't need to worry about spam-bots. If I ever do archive the list on-line, I will munge all e-mail addresses to thwart the spam-bots.)" Mirian is providing only the OS for now, but expects to have MIDAS (the ITS assembler), TECO, and of course, EMACS up soon. Everyone is asking about MACLISP; anyone have a copy? Regards, -doug quebbeman From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 15:31:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225735@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > ! ...I'm not sure how many of you have ever thought about this; but > ! now that I've broached the subject, whaddy'all think? > > I dunno about splitting the list. Even my interest is in the > hardware side, like Tony, I'm sure there are many here that go both ways. > And there will be new guys, that are unsure about thier preference, and > seeing discussions about both sides in one place here, will definitely be > helpful to them... I'm not favoring splitting the list... just hoping to avoid barbs for discussing stuff that isn't 10 years old (the sims themselves). -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 13 15:55:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3B97C0C900107FE6@mail.san.yahoo.com> (added by postmaster@mail.san.yahoo.com) Message-ID: Doesn't it seem a little odd to be debating whether emulators and simulators are on-topic when the bulk of the list traffic is about politics, and even the list owner can't get full cooperation in an attempt to end threads that have absolutely NO connection with computers nor computing? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 13 15:58:07 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225735@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > I'm not favoring splitting the list... just hoping to avoid barbs > for discussing stuff that isn't 10 years old (the sims themselves). I hadn't noticed those barbs. Were they because there wasn't an obligatory mention of WTC? From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Thu Sep 13 16:18:27 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146709D@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! They refused to swap my machine... and you can't tell me that ! they didn't ! already have the new ones on order if they were there 2 days ! later... the ! bastard was just trying to clear out inventory and take ! advantage of a ! young teenager. Ouch... That hurts! --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 16:27:57 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225737@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Perhaps I've been a little strong with my comments (about emulators, say) in > the past. If so, I apologise. I wasn't intending to flame anybody... Nope... didn't take it that way, anyway.... I don't recall when the list was founded ('97?), though I'm a latecomer ('00)... but I still consider a certain portion of the discussions here amount to each of us "feeling each other's callouses"... to abuse banker- talk... Regards, -dq From owad at applefritter.com Thu Sep 13 16:34:13 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010913213413.18134@mail.lafayette.edu> >Classic computing (and, BTW, I think that's a much better description of >the list than 'classic computers' because the latter could be taken to >only mean heardware) is a very big field. I thought the list's name was simply "ClassicCmp"... Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 16:47:46 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) Starter Kit Available In-Reply-To: from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 13, 2001 04:29:12 PM Message-ID: <200109132147.f8DLlkw19398@shell1.aracnet.com> > Of course, you'll need Bob's simulator; you can check out > Zane Healy's emulators page, or pick up a copy at: For those that don't know my page is at: http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html and Bob's pages are at: http://www.tiac.net/users/mps/retro/ I've got links to all the ITS related materials on the net that I'm aware of. If anyone knows of any documenation of any sort on the net besides what is at Mirian's site, or the ITS reference manual, version 1.5 from MIT, I'd appreciate knowing about it. The same goes for any other documenation for TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 that isn't already listed on my site. Zane From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 17:01:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225738@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Doesn't it seem a little odd to be debating whether emulators and > simulators are on-topic when the bulk of the list traffic is about > politics, and even the list owner can't get full cooperation in an attempt > to end threads that have absolutely NO connection with computers nor > computing? Ah, you've seen right through me... We need to get our minds off it for a while, now, I think... However, I'd actually hoped the discussion would quickly leave the real vs. virtual iron and stimulate some interest in the simulators and their range of capabilities. For example, the IBM 1620 emulator, written in Java, is very nice graphically; the 1620 had a great front panel. You can toggle in a program and run it; additionally, it comes with a memory test (or somesuch) already "loaded". But it has no facilities to load/save programs to/from disk. OTOH, Doug Jones' PDP/8E emulator provides those capabillites, and if you haven't seen Bernhard Baehr's PDP8/E emulator for the Mac, you should, assuming you have a Mac on which to run it. Hands down, though, the DEC-10 emulators are most excellent! They are able to provide me with a nearly exact duplicate of one of the computing environments I grew up with and miss. The few differences are: I'm the only user (something we used to live for), and the machine name doesn't say I U P U I in it. But I can change *that*... I can also get other users online, but that's another story... Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 17:17:41 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225739@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > In a recent thread, Tony Duell expressed a lack of interest in the > > emulators and simulators of old iron that are now circulating. His > > True. But let me say a couple of things here... Ok... > > reasons centered around his love of hardware. From my perspective, > > it appears that for Tony, the experience of computing cannot be > > separated from the experiencing of the computer. > > That much is also true. As I've said a few times before, I am an > electronics hacker primarily. My interest in computers is to consider > them as (fairly) complex electronic circuits to be investigated, hacked, > modified, repaired, etc. This is (I know) somewhat unconventional, but.... No so unconventional... I started with hardware (hacking the family TV, stereo, and phones)... > Since you can't (usefully) take a soldering iron to an emulator, it > explains why I am not interested in them. Isn't rosin (ersin) carcinogenic? Just kidding! > > I confess I don't like that- the Classic Computers for which I > > lust the most will forever remain inaccessible (and few examples > > You can probably gather from the above that I don't like it either! Sure, > _I_ am interested in the hardware, but this list would be very boring if > all memeber were like me. I feel that this list should cover other > aspects of classic _computing_. Yes, keep the hardware repair and > preservation (the bits I am interested in), but also include stuff on > emulators, programming techniques for the older machines, software > preservation, and everything else related to _computing_ 10 years or more > ago. Again, I didn't want you to feel picked-upon. However, for each of us who posts, I'd bet there are ten who don't. Of those of us who do post, each of us appears to represent yet a different facet of this interest area. You post a lot, and I believe, whether you realize it or not, that you represent a viewpoint held by many subscribers. In siezing upon your words, I was really trying to focus on one particular viewpoint, in order to place it in comparison and contrast with a different viewpoint. > > So, I think the formal name and the charter of this group should > > change to reflect an interest in Class Computing. The only real > > I am assumeing that's a typo for 'Classic Computing'. In which case you > have my vote... @*#$^@*#& Where's that damned DWIM keyboard when I need it??? ;-) > > change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators > > would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming > > the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions > > Why the last exclusion? I've never heard of a discussion on how to > diagnose hardware faults using modern test equipment being branded as > off-topic. Nor using modern parts to repair old machines. Nor using > modern machines as an aid to restoring/preserving old hardware. Why > should writing emulators be any different. It can quickly degenerate into "this version of GCC does but doesn't do "... most of the sims are relying on GCC for portability. Or, do we build it as one huge monolithic source, or modularize the source? Separate execution modules running as native processes, or one big carefully-coded "superloop" that polls everything? For that level of discussion, it may prove beneficial to have a mailinglist dedicated to emulator/simulator theory. But if there is insufficient interest to mandate a separate list, ok, this is as fine a place as any for the discussions. > I don't particularly want to see complete listings for emulators (many > megabytes of C source) posted here, but certainly techniques for writing > them could be classed as on-topic, I think. Agreed... -dq From vcf at vintage.org Thu Sep 13 17:21:41 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Postponed Message-ID: An Important Message About VCF 5.0: Due to the recent events that have affected all Americans this week, it has been decided to postpone the fifth annual Vintage Computer Festival until further notice. We regret this decision, but in light of the problems being faced by out of town travelers, not to mention the trauma that we have all experienced as a result of the terrible events in New York and Washington, D.C., we felt that this was the right decision to make. We regret any inconvenience this may cause to those who had made arrangements to attend the event this weekend. The VCF wishes to express its sorrow to everyone who has been touched by this tragedy. We encourage everyone to do what they can in the coming days to help those who are in need, including donating blood at your local Red Cross. Please be aware that the California Extreme event will still be taking place this Saturday and Sunday, September 15-16, at Parkside Hall in San Jose, California. Please continue to check the VCF website at http://www.vintage.org/ for updates on when VCF 5.0 will be re-scheduled. We hope and pray for peace to prevail in the comings weeks and months, and we hope you will do the same. Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 13 17:24:05 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573A@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > I'm not favoring splitting the list... just hoping to avoid barbs > > for discussing stuff that isn't 10 years old (the sims themselves). > > I hadn't noticed those barbs. Were they because there wasn't an > obligatory mention of WTC? I've been as guilty as others about maintaining OT threads, the recent one about carburetors comes to mind... no one's ever flamed me for it (which is great), but given that many listers want to avoid too much OT stuff, it seemed worth bringing up. Actually, it never really gets very heated here... you should check out alt.sysadmin.recovery, they drummed me right out of there recently for not having a proper sigdash in my posts. For the record, I *do* have a proper sigdash in my posts (but not here); Outlook Express strips the trailing space, and, well, I'm spinning off-topic again... ;-) -dq From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 13 18:00:24 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Emulators (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225738@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > For example, the IBM 1620 emulator, written in Java, is > very nice graphically; the 1620 had a great front panel. About 35 years ago, I was using a 1620. The two main programs we were using were a PDQ FORTRAN compiler, and ... a 1401 EMULATOR! I wonder if the 1401 emulator that ran on the 1620 would run on the 1620 emulator? Unfortunately, last year, one of our administrators hauled off all of our file cabinets of punched cards, and I don't know where else to find a copy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 13 17:37:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225739@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 13, 1 06:17:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3335 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010913/7b84d1d4/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 18:05:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: essential CP/M files Message-ID: <009001c13caa$50506f00$18ee9a8d@ajp166> >If you were stuck on an island with a solar-powered CP/M machine and only one floppy disk in CP/M 2.2 format, which programs and utilities would you want on that disk? I'd have two floppies. Any opinions of what I should distribute with the emulator? Here is what I am planning on so far: STAT PIP ASM MAC DDT ED DUMP LOAD SUBMIT XSUB How about a decent editor? >Unfortunately, I don't have FORMAT, MOVCPM, PUTSYS, GETSYS, or SYSGEN since None of those are very meaningful for an emulator. >Although there are lots of replacement programs for those listed above that are undoubtedly better than the stock CP/M 2.2 programs, I am going to use the originals from D.R. and leave it up to any user who cares enough to customize it as they see fit. Why? will the emulator provide a way to create a new disk drive? Allison From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 13 18:24:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225738@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > For example, the IBM 1620 emulator, written in Java, is very nice > graphically; the 1620 had a great front panel. You can toggle in a > program and run it; additionally, it comes with a memory test (or > somesuch) already "loaded". When the VCF is re-scheduled, we'll hopefully be able to do the tour of The Computer Museum History Center, where they will have an actual 1620 that has been restored up and running. FYI, part of the reason VCF was postponed was because the Computer Museum tour had to be called off, due to increased security at Moffett Field where the Museum is located. :( Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From optimus at canit.se Thu Sep 13 18:06:53 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1083.657T2650T66015optimus@canit.se> Don Maslin skrev: >On 13 Sep 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: >> Jeff Hellige skrev: >> >> > Check out this 4meg Mac Plus acting as a webserver. On topic >> >since the Mac Plus was introduced in 1986. >> >> > http://macplus.schoolvision.com/ >> >> A few years ago, there was a Mac consultant firm here which ran a >> competition called "Hack a Mac" or something to that effect, in which you >> could win X thousand if you managed to alter the front page on their >> Mac-based WWW server. IIRC, this server ran on a PowerMac, but they also >> had a WWW server running on a Mac SE, which is more or less the same as a >> Plus, only with ADB. They used it as a demo of the Mac's long-lasting >> potential. >Interesting Iggy, but cut to the punchline. Did anyone win their >competition, and what dis they do? Well, the web server is OT for several years yet, but someone finally did manage to do it, IIRC by exploiting some obscure Appletalk bug. They really had an unfair setup, though. Hacking any machine would have been difficult in that environment. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From optimus at canit.se Thu Sep 13 18:07:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <3BA04B21.A3C83269@internet1.net> Message-ID: <242.657T1550T75647optimus@canit.se> Chad Fernandez skrev: >Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. No, it's a 68000. The SE/30 is the '030 model. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Was ist ein Erwachsener? Ein Kind, das vom Alter aufgepumpt ist. --- Simone de Beauvoir From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Sep 13 19:02:41 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BA14921.E9C276C2@tiac.net> I diagree. We need both the emulation-simulation fans, AND the hardware fans. Simulators will never recover data from physical media, and the hardware should be preserved for the future. But in time, the last examples of the hardware will cease to run, and parts will be long gone. As some (distant point) the torch must pass to emulation, but this should be delayed as long as practical. As for the computing experiuance being computing, I also disagree. Building devices and interfacing them to the hardware has always been a major attraction to computing, and this is nearly all the original personal computers were able to do. Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Ok, > > We all need a topic to take our minds of the WTC attack. Here's > one I've been meaning to bring up, surely it will generate a lot > of discussion. > > In a recent thread, Tony Duell expressed a lack of interest in the > emulators and simulators of old iron that are now circulating. His > reasons centered around his love of hardware. From my perspective, > it appears that for Tony, the experience of computing cannot be > separated from the experiencing of the computer. > > My reading of this mailinglist's charter leads me to conclude that > the group is here for the benefit of the Tonys (BTW, Tony, I'm *not* > picking on you) in the world, those for whom the hardware *is* the > end-all be-all of the Classic _Computer_ experience. > > I confess I don't like that- the Classic Computers for which I > lust the most will forever remain inaccessible (and few examples > will even continue to exist). However, as both an RJE operator and > as a mainframe user, I found the experience to be more about the > _computing_ and less about the _computer_. > > Exceptions included (back in the 70s) of building an IMSAI, a SOL, > hacking a KIM-1, etc. But after we got the hardware running, the > fun part was in creating the _computing environment_. > > So, I think the formal name and the charter of this group should > change to reflect an interest in Class Computing. The only real > change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators > would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming > the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions > of the Classic Operating Systems would be similarly on-topic. > > I'm not sure how many of you have ever thought about this; but > now that I've broached the subject, whaddy'all think? > > Regards, > -doug quebbeman From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 19:01:29 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 13, 2001 06:01:20 PM Message-ID: <200109140001.f8E01TQ26723@shell1.aracnet.com> > and if you haven't seen Bernhard Baehr's PDP8/E emulator for > the Mac, you should, assuming you have a Mac on which to run it. If you haven't seen it you should find a Mac and borrow it long enough to try it. I know of one list member that bought a Mac to run it (OK, granted it was a very old cheap one). When I got my PDP-8/m and was trying to get it running I used the emulator as a diagnostic aid, so I could see what I should be seeing on the real hardware and better understand what I was doing. Zane From marvin at rain.org Thu Sep 13 19:12:03 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Postponed References: Message-ID: <3BA14B53.39204FC7@rain.org> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Due to the recent events that have affected all Americans this week, > it has been decided to postpone the fifth annual Vintage Computer > Festival until further notice. I am sorry to hear that it has been postponed, but it certainly is understandable!!!! Is there any projected schedule, or is it most likely going to be postponed until next year? From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Sep 13 19:34:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Emulators (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I wonder if the 1401 emulator that ran on the 1620 would run on the 1620 >emulator? Why not....I recently used a Windows emulator to try out a SWTPC FLEX-09 emulator. In fact, I have always used emulators running emulators as a way of putting a heavy load on a system to see just what it's capable of. Doing the thing with the FLEX emulator gave me a good idea as to how the Windows emulation was comparing speed-wise to the real thing too. Running SoftPC on an emulated Mac, using Shapeshifter, on an '040 Amiga, alsocomes to mind. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From vaxman at qwest.net Thu Sep 13 19:55:32 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010910170714.00907ca0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Hi Tom, I have a Bell&Howell 500FB 11x17 scanner with ADF that I a pretty happy with. It'll do 400DPI native, and 600DPI interpolated, up to 256 grayscale (no color). I've used it to scan a small number of 11x17 schematics, and the results are reasonable, the main problem is page skew. I've been working on a program to automatically deskew pages (which works ok), and recenter the image in the page (which doesn't). IIRC, I paid ~$1200US for it. I also have a Microtek MRS-800AJ which is 11x17 color (i forget the resolution) but flatbed only. This scanner is too slow to use for any sort of document scanning. You will die of boredem waiting to switch pages and start the next scan. I'm happy with the color reproduction however. Lots cheaper, ~$600US. Both are SCSI, which I consider to be a requirement because of the amount of time required to transfer an image across USB. A zippy machine to drive it (600MHZ/PIII) is also very desirable... Clint On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Tom Uban wrote: > I started looking for an 11x17 scanner (also called A3 or tabloid, from what > I can gather). They are hard to find and I was wondering if you have > suggestions > for a quality flat bed scanner which can handle the larger format, but is not > to pricey. The ones which I have found also appear to be SCSI, is OK, but > would not be my first choice. > > --tom > > At 02:16 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: > >This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" > >scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves > >exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM > >that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note > >that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add > >scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a > >'standard' for their scans. That would help too. > > > >--Chuck > > > >At 01:01 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: > >> > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low > >> > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) > >> > >>Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 > >>bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG > >>and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more > >>efficient compression, though. > >> > >>John A. > > > > > > From daveb at cup.hp.com Thu Sep 13 20:37:54 2001 From: daveb at cup.hp.com (Dave Babcock) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <006101c13cbd$e18415e0$a77ba8c0@nsr.hp.com> > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Douglas Quebbeman > > Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 3:01 PM > > To: 'classiccmp@classiccmp.org' > > Subject: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing > > > > > > > Doesn't it seem a little odd to be debating whether emulators and > > > simulators are on-topic when the bulk of the list traffic is about > > > politics, and even the list owner can't get full cooperation in > > an attempt > > > to end threads that have absolutely NO connection with computers nor > > > computing? > > > > Ah, you've seen right through me... > > > > We need to get our minds off it for a while, now, I think... > > > > However, I'd actually hoped the discussion would quickly > > leave the real vs. virtual iron and stimulate some interest > > in the simulators and their range of capabilities. > > > > For example, the IBM 1620 emulator, written in Java, is > > very nice graphically; the 1620 had a great front panel. > > You can toggle in a program and run it; additionally, > > it comes with a memory test (or somesuch) already "loaded". > > > > But it has no facilities to load/save programs to/from disk. It will have when it's done. It's still a work-in-progress. Our plan is to have console typewriter, paper tape reader/punch and card reader/punch done graphically like the front panel. The IBM 1620 History project (of which the emulator is one part) has been on hold for almost a year but is being restarted. > > OTOH, Doug Jones' PDP/8E emulator provides those capabillites, > > and if you haven't seen Bernhard Baehr's PDP8/E emulator for > > the Mac, you should, assuming you have a Mac on which to run it. > > > > Hands down, though, the DEC-10 emulators are most excellent! > > They are able to provide me with a nearly exact duplicate of > > one of the computing environments I grew up with and miss. > > The few differences are: I'm the only user (something we used > > to live for), and the machine name doesn't say I U P U I in > > it. But I can change *that*... > > > > I can also get other users online, but that's another story... > > > > Regards, > > -dq Thanks, DaveB From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 13 20:37:04 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Postponed In-Reply-To: <3BA14B53.39204FC7@rain.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I am sorry to hear that it has been postponed, but it certainly is > understandable!!!! Is there any projected schedule, or is it most > likely going to be postponed until next year? I am hoping to re-scheduled for later this year. Anywhere from 30-60 days from now. So stay tuned! :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 20:57:46 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <00c001c13cc0$a90af6e0$18ee9a8d@ajp166> Well then ther are those like me... I use MyZ80 as a platform to test z80 and cp/m software at the application level and a real (pat pending ;)) Z80 system with real VT100/125/340 to run it in reality. It's not an Emulator is better or worse thing for me. I cant yet buy a z80 that runs faster than MyZ80 on a PIII/550. At the other extreme that said PIII still cant emulate the keyboard layout of a Vt100 or VT220 worth poop. Allison From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Thu Sep 13 20:54:43 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> <3BA0411E.5A9A3092@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BA16363.15FC17E1@bedrocksys.com> If that is the way you feel, the PLEASE FIND ANOTHER MAILING LIST! Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Thats about they way I feel too. Classic Computers can wait. From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 13 21:18:22 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? In-Reply-To: from "David Woyciesjes" at Sep 13, 2001 04:27:49 PM Message-ID: <200109140218.f8E2IMX01087@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? The last email I had from him was just before 8:00AM on Tuesday. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 13 21:40:32 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "ajp166" at Sep 13, 2001 09:57:46 PM Message-ID: <200109140240.f8E2eWI01144@narnia.int.dittman.net> > It's not an Emulator is better or worse thing for me. I cant yet buy a > z80 > that runs faster than MyZ80 on a PIII/550. At the other extreme that > said > PIII still cant emulate the keyboard layout of a Vt100 or VT220 worth > poop. The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 keyboard. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From optimus at canit.se Thu Sep 13 23:12:42 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3015.657T2100T3126025optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: [snip snip] >So, I think the formal name and the charter of this group should >change to reflect an interest in Class Computing. The only real >change would be that discussions about the eumlators and simulators >would no longer be OT unless they drift into details of programming >the emu/simulators themselves. Additionally, more detailed discussions >of the Classic Operating Systems would be similarly on-topic. >I'm not sure how many of you have ever thought about this; but >now that I've broached the subject, whaddy'all think? I don't like emulators one bit. I run them every so often, but I really prefer the original whenever I can. I don't really trust emulations, but that's not the main point. What really puts me off emulators is that they're so awfully lame. How can an emulator be lame? Well, it's not as much the emulators as the crowd surrounding them. They're usually Win#? kids who know nothing about old computers, really don't care, and just want games, games, games, all for free. Since I'm using a computer which is becoming increasingly popular among emulator kids, I'm always irritated by people who think they can pirate the operating systems and applications I pay for, just because they may be run using an emulator. They're like vultures, they want it all, and of course, for free. And then I find my precious ROMs? on those awful pages run by fourteen- year-olds with dubious taste, right between the pornography and the Britney Spears MP3s. They even emulate systems which require no particular effort to find, and no considerable funds, either. But I feel that they turn whatever remains there are of a scene on the emulated machine into some kind of backdrop. There are millions of kids boasting about their newest rips, while they actually don't care at all about the system which actually still matters to a lot of people. Their very presence diminishes the spirit of the platform. The real users, the hackers which remain, are turned into some kind of quaint natives which are kept there for the tourists. However, when it comes to emulating a PDP-10, that is another deal. They don't interest your average kid, and most users would never have encountered the actual hardware anyway, even back in the day. But emulating a C64, apart from as a programming exercise, seems quite pointless. There are enough C64s out there for all of us. ?(Which, among these kids, is not a term for read-only memory, but the proper nomenclature for pirated games and programs. IOW, a C64 tape image is called a ROM, so is an Atari disk image.) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From louiss at gate.net Thu Sep 13 22:20:12 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: CFCJF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109140319.XAA26991@blount.mail.mindspring.net> At the moment, it appears that a hurricane may be located between Tampa and Orlando on Saturday morning. Since I would be driving from Tampa to Orlando, this might prove inconvenient. Therefore, and given the other events of the week, may I propose that we re-schedule? Louis From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 13 22:21:53 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:32 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Sep 13, 2001 09:40:32 PM Message-ID: <200109140321.f8E3Lsm01993@shell1.aracnet.com> > > PIII still cant emulate the keyboard layout of a Vt100 or VT220 worth > > poop. > > The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > keyboard. Also there is a shell script available that will turn an xterm vt100, I've got a copy on my ftp site if anyone wants to try it ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub just look for vt100.sh (I think it's in the VMS section). I use it all the time for telneting into my VMS systems. I've got to admit I like the LK461 idea, and just might have to give that a try. Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 13 22:47:18 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt Message-ID: <001c01c13ccf$fccbdc40$45f09a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman >> PIII still cant emulate the keyboard layout of a Vt100 or VT220 worth >> poop. > >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 >keyboard. Thats one solution. The other is a real VT{100|125|330|340} or H19 since I do have them and prefer the feel of the keyboards and their respective layouts. Allison From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Sep 13 22:55:17 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: <200109140240.f8E2eWI01144@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "ajp166" at Sep 13, 2001 09:57:46 PM Message-ID: >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 >keyboard. What makes the LK461 special? From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 00:07:09 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... References: Message-ID: <3BA1907D.35E476B@internet1.net> Ok, I see. I am not the most familar with Macs, although, I was on the Classic Mac list for awhile. I didn't realize that the SE and SE/30 were two machines. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chris wrote: > > >Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. > > No, the SE was an 8mhz 68000 just like the plus. The SE was basically a > newer plus (it had a built in HD or 2 800k floppies, ADB, an expansion > slot, and a newer ROM). Later the SE was upgraded to having the > SuperDrive (not the NEW superdrive that apple has recycled the name for, > but rather the original 1.4mb drive that could read MFS, HFS, DOS, and > ProDOS) > > There WAS an SE/30 that was a 16mhz (33mhz?) 68030... it was basically an > SE, but with the faster processor and 8 simm slots rather than 4... I > think THAT is the Mac you are thinking of. > > -chris > > From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 00:13:56 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> <3BA0411E.5A9A3092@internet1.net> <3BA16363.15FC17E1@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <3BA19214.EF1DB278@internet1.net> Nope this ones fine, thanks.... and don't shout. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John W. Linville wrote: > > If that is the way you feel, the PLEASE FIND ANOTHER MAILING LIST! > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > Thats about they way I feel too. Classic Computers can wait. From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 00:23:52 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Secure cockpit doors? References: Message-ID: <3BA19468.8ADB02E0@internet1.net> Russ Blakeman wrote: > > Might as well say bye to everyone when the plane leaves as if anyone has a > firearm on an aircraft the results could be worse than if the plane was > hijacked (normal hijack, not like these last ones). What about the armed Air Marshalls I have heard mentioned? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 00:40:46 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: World Trade crash... References: <000001c13b28$8b889800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <3B9F0251.A22AA900@internet1.net> <006401c13b93$3d08c220$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BA1985E.B343F855@internet1.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I don't know how it was when you went to high school, but when I went, we all > had a required course in "civics" which had nothing to do with HONDA engines, > but, rather, dealt with the practices and structures of our own governments. > Being a naturalized citizen, I had to learn this stuff twice, since it was also > on the exams for citizenship. So what's your point? If you've learned it twice, then you should know that the popular vote doesn't elect the president. > > It's true that "Just because his brother is the governor of Florida doesn't mean > his brother was doing anything underhanded." However, the fact that he's a Bush > suggests that he could hardly have been doing anything else. It's in their DNA, > doncha know. I think you just don't anybody. Where are you from, originally, if you've been naturalized? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 00:50:24 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: References: <200109140240.f8E2eWI01144@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "ajp166" at Sep 13, 2001 09:57:46 PM Message-ID: >>The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 >>keyboard. > >What makes the LK461 special? It has all the keys a keyboard should, not just the ones that the loser that designed the PC keyboard thinks it should. I just wish I could stick a LK461 on my Mac, I hate not having all the keys on it since I use it as a front end to my VMS systems. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jss at subatomix.com Fri Sep 14 00:55:50 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467099@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <20010914005513.J61225-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? I've recieved something from him recently. It was about a week or so ago. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 01:01:04 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <008a01c13b95$1eacede0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BA19D20.C8FD600D@internet1.net> Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Unfortunately, I think you're mistaken here, Bill. The typical American of > today hasn't the courage to risk his life as an individual, But if you may well be loosing your life any way.... like the people in Pennsylvania realized, then go for it! >even if it means > being slaughtered as part of a group. That same American hasn't the courage to > call the cops if he sees someone breaking into his neighbor's house or car, > because he fears being singled out as an honest individual, rather than part of > the corrupt masses. Hey I'd call the cops if I saw someones car being broken in to, who wouldn't? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 01:05:16 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: OT: World Trade crash... References: <5911797.1000306738498.JavaMail.root@127.0.0.1> <3B9F49F8.11970.299B07BC@localhost> <01c401c13bbd$d283df40$030101ac@boll.casema.net> Message-ID: <3BA19E1C.428689D4@internet1.net> Yup, I've seen a tape of a test on TLC or Discovery. They flew a radio controled F4 Phantom into a test wall! Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sipke de Wal wrote: > > Back in the sixties/seventies, the US authorities were afraid that > it could be done on a nuclear powerplant. It seems the designed > the containmenthull of nuclear powerplants to resist such an event. > > Sipke de Wal From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Sep 14 01:34:21 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: essential CP/M files In-Reply-To: <009001c13caa$50506f00$18ee9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010913231932.00c47710@postoffice.pacbell.net> Allison wrote: At 07:05 PM 9/13/01 -0400, Jim Battle wrote: > >If you were stuck on an island with a solar-powered CP/M machine and >only >one floppy disk in CP/M 2.2 format, which programs and utilities would >you >want on that disk? > > >I'd have two floppies. Actually, my emulator can be configured for zero to four drives, and as many disks as you want to create. >Any opinions of what I should distribute with the emulator? Here is what >I >am planning on so far: > >STAT >PIP >ASM >MAC >DDT >ED >DUMP >LOAD >SUBMIT >XSUB > > >How about a decent editor? I used CP/M just a bit back in the day, and I'm only now learning a bit more about it. Do you have any recommendations? I've seen TED in one of the CP/M archives, but I haven't gotten far enough along to see if I can get it to run on a Sol. I have a half-completed project from a couple years ago to try and write a "vi" editor in z80 assembly that would run in 8K-12K or so, but it got interrupted by my work on the Sol. Maybe someday I'll get back to it and make a CP/M vi. > >Unfortunately, I don't have FORMAT, MOVCPM, PUTSYS, GETSYS, or SYSGEN >since > > >None of those are very meaningful for an emulator. I agree, other than just for completeness. > >Although there are lots of replacement programs for those listed above >that >are undoubtedly better than the stock CP/M 2.2 programs, I am going to >use >the originals from D.R. and leave it up to any user who cares enough to >customize it as they see fit. > > >Why? will the emulator provide a way to create a new disk drive? I assume you mean disk, not just disk drive. If you really mean drive, then yes, you can have up to four. If you meant disks, you can make as many disks as you want. Each lives as a "virtual disk" on your actual hard drive as a binary image. Floppies can be single or double sided, single or double density. What you put on them is limited only to what software wants to put on them in the real software. In the real hardware, so in my emulated format too, sectors are actually a bit bigger than the 512 bytes so that if someone had drivers that understood some non-standard format (such as storing the track and sector information in the header instead of just counting it in the driver) it would work in the emulator too. Preamble and sync bytes are maintained in the disk image as well, so if the driver doesn't write an adequate preamble, the emulator can detect that and give a warning (if you want it to). Does your driver use a non-standard checksum? No problem, the emulator does what the hardware would. >Allison In time I hope to add emulation for the Helios disk subsystem too. Actually, I think I have enough information to emulate the hardware right now; the harder part will be getting the disk images onto a PC. Bob Stek has some old PT-DOS disks, and in time, he or I will try to dump the disk image out to a PC. I think it would be a real archeological find to get PT-DOS running again. Getting CP/M running on Solace is OK, but there really isn't much mystery in CP/M. If anybody already has a PT-DOS disk imaged somewhere from ages ago, please let me know about it. I'd love to use it to get that phase of the emulator project underway. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Sep 14 01:43:49 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225739@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010913233514.00c8f970@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 11:37 PM 9/13/01 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > That much is also true. As I've said a few times before, I am an > > > electronics hacker primarily. My interest in computers is to consider > > > them as (fairly) complex electronic circuits to be investigated, hacked, > > > modified, repaired, etc. This is (I know) somewhat unconventional, > but.... > > > > No so unconventional... I started with hardware (hacking the family TV, > > stereo, and phones)... > >I suspect that a lot of people started with hardware, but not that many >stuck with it :-). And even fewer think of computers primarily in >hardware terms. > > > > Since you can't (usefully) take a soldering iron to an emulator, it > > > explains why I am not interested in them. I can understand the "hands-on" aspect, but here's another viewpoint. I'm an EE by degree and trade, programmer by hobby. Let me tell you, I thought I understood pretty well how the Sol worked, but in the process of writing an accurate emulator, I really learned how things work to a much greater degree than I had before. For some features I've spent hours analyzing schematics and writing test programs to stimulate certain conditions to see how the Sol really behaves so that I can try and duplicate it in the emulator. In the distant future I hope to write an emulator for the Wang 2200, the machine I learned to program on. I'm sure I'll have some fleeting kicks writing a few small programs for the machine, but what I'm really looking forward to is learning how the machine actually worked at a deep level. Stated another way, when I'm looking at a schematic, there are times when I can understand completely what the circuit does. There are other times when I get the general drift of it and just go on to other parts. However, if you are writing an emulator, you can't just gloss over the details. At some point you need to write a piece of code that says: "under these conditions, do these specific things". So I can't literally take a soldering iron to the emulator, but many of the same skills of reverse engineering and analysis that you certainly enjoy are also required to write an emulator. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From optimus at canit.se Thu Sep 13 23:36:46 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467096@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <1327.657T2300T3365617optimus@canit.se> David Woyciesjes skrev: >! >Isn't the SE an 030 Mac? The Plus is only a 68000. >! >! No, the SE was an 8mhz 68000 just like the plus. The SE was >! basically a >! newer plus (it had a built in HD or 2 800k floppies, ADB, an >! expansion >! slot, and a newer ROM). Later the SE was upgraded to having the >! SuperDrive (not the NEW superdrive that apple has recycled >! the name for, >! but rather the original 1.4mb drive that could read MFS, HFS, >! DOS, and >! ProDOS) >Properly known as the 'Macintosh SE FDHD'. Yep, I got one of these, running >OS 6.0.7, 50MB HDD, and 4MB RAM... I've got both kinds, one of which which is equipped with a 3Com Ethernet card. Unfortunately, 3Com seem to have forgotten all about making such a beast, and have even managed to reuse its model number on some PCMCIA card. =/ >! There WAS an SE/30 that was a 16mhz (33mhz?) 68030... it was >! basically an >! SE, but with the faster processor and 8 simm slots rather than 4... I >! think THAT is the Mac you are thinking of. >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU and 0.5K of L1 cache! Have >two of these, OS 7.1 and 7.0.1... Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. We have the most thorough test guy in the world... I showed him this program and he asked, 'but Rob, what if time runs backward?' From foxvideo at wincom.net Fri Sep 14 05:14:13 2001 From: foxvideo at wincom.net (Charles E. Fox) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Postponed In-Reply-To: References: <3BA14B53.39204FC7@rain.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010914061303.00a56ba0@mail.wincom.net> At 06:37 PM 13/09/2001 -0700, you wrote: >On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > > > I am sorry to hear that it has been postponed, but it certainly is > > understandable!!!! Is there any projected schedule, or is it most > > likely going to be postponed until next year? > >I am hoping to re-scheduled for later this year. Anywhere from 30-60 days >from now. > >So stay tuned! > >:) > >Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org Sellam, have you heard anything from Hans? Regards Charlie Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON N8Y 3J8 foxvideo@wincom.net Check out: Camcorder Kindergarten at http://chasfoxvideo.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 05:45:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) Starter Kit Available Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Of course, you'll need Bob's simulator; you can check out > > Zane Healy's emulators page, or pick up a copy at: > > For those that don't know my page is at: > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html > and Bob's pages are at: > http://www.tiac.net/users/mps/retro/ > > I've got links to all the ITS related materials on the net that I'm aware > of. If anyone knows of any documenation of any sort on the net besides what > is at Mirian's site, or the ITS reference manual, version 1.5 from MIT, I'd > appreciate knowing about it. The same goes for any other documenation for > TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 that isn't already listed on my site. On your ITS page, the last link: http://bony.umtec.com/pdp10.html appears to be stale... might just be down at the moment, but the sources for ITS can also be found on John Wilson's FTP site. He requests that downloads take place after hours or on weekends. -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 05:46:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Emulators (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > For example, the IBM 1620 emulator, written in Java, is > > very nice graphically; the 1620 had a great front panel. > > About 35 years ago, I was using a 1620. The two main programs we were > using were a PDQ FORTRAN compiler, and ... > > a 1401 EMULATOR! > > I wonder if the 1401 emulator that ran on the 1620 would run on the 1620 > emulator? > > Unfortunately, last year, one of our administrators hauled off all of our > file cabinets of punched cards, and I don't know where else to find a > copy. Is he a preservationist? Or was he just cleaning shop? -dq From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri Sep 14 07:18:58 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <023401c13d17$6e545fd0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> My interest in classic computers is primarily in the architecture (i.e. - programmer's model), not the actual metal, silicon, and plastic, although I cannot deny a certain satisfaction in using at least parts of an original machine to implement that architecture. The PDP-11's I'm playing with at present are machines that are newly built from scrap parts. I don't care whether those parts are DEC parts or not. I am currently collecting parts to build a PDP-11 that will consist of: - M7554-SD CPU board from a DECserver 550 - gutted SparcStation 1 (nice compact box and power supply) - SCSI Qbus board from a microVAX (off eBay) - SCSI hard drive (from an old PC) - VT420 off eBay - 100 pin .125 pitch backplane connectors (non-DEC) from Digikey. It will run 2.11BSD. I consider this as legitimate a PDP-11 as any 19" rack with pink and purple paint and blinkenlights. Inconsistently, I have reservations about the legitimacy of my notebook computer running simh and 2.11BSD, although so far I've done all my PDP-11 software development on this platform. I guess it's tainted by its too-close contact with Windows. I'll continue to use it, but I won't be satisfied until any software I develop is running on a "real" pdp-11. An idea that I've been thinking about is the re-implementation of a classic architecture (for me, probably a PDP-11) using entirely modern hardware. One way to go about this would be to use a Xilinx FPGA. I know that this has already been done for the PDP-8. Another approach would be to view a Wintel PC as a microcoded platform, and reimplement the PDP-11 on that hardware. The microcode would be written in tightly crafted Pentium code. The machine would bootstrap itself by loading the microcode from a special partition on the hard drive. Since the hardware has memory to burn relative to the target, instruction decoding would be via huge jump tables. Don't bother decoding anything, just use the entire 16 bit opcode as an index into a table. The execution routines for each instruction would be generated by macros or a C program, one routine for each of the 65536 possible opcodes. The Pentium memory management hardware could be used to emulate the PDP-11 MMU. Accesses to the I/O page would be trapped by the hardware to routines that mapped the PDP-11 registers onto the real available devices. Although I could probably do this, I'll probably never get the chance -- it would be a pretty ambitious hobby project. It could be done for any architecture. I would consider such a reimplementation to be a legitimate instance of a classic computer. I don't see that there is a need to change the charter. Nobody pays attention to the charter anyhow. ;-) -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/pdp-11.htm From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 07:43:06 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I diagree. > > We need both the emulation-simulation fans, AND the hardware fans. I keep reading my original post to see where it is that I suggest a split; I don't. But you're not alone in having mis-read my post. I've felt that discussions about emulators and simulators weren't quite welcome here. I want to see them included. [..snip..] > As for the computing experiuance being computing, I also disagree. Again, a misunderstanding... I consider the term "Classic Computing" to be more inclusive than "Classic Computers". The latter implies (to me) a hardware focus; the former is more inclusive, describing both hardware and software. > Building devices and interfacing them to the hardware has always been > a major attraction to computing, and this is nearly all the original > personal computers were able to do. Hell, I know a guy that did this with mainframes as well. I'm glad to have stimulated conversation; sorry so many are misreading my intentions. Regards, -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 07:45:53 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > But it has no facilities to load/save programs to/from disk. > > It will have when it's done. It's still a work-in-progress. Our plan is > to have console typewriter, paper tape reader/punch and card reader/punch > done graphically like the front panel. Dave- The one I've been laying with is from Richard Jowsey... are you working with him, or is yours a separate project? -dq From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Fri Sep 14 07:46:12 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:37:48 +0100 (BST) Tony Duell wrote: > I hope this discussion will prompt other people to post about their > interest areas. That would be truely a Good Thing... OK, I'm interested in old technology of all sorts. Mainly electronic stuff: Radios: Ever Ready, Bush Video recorders: U-matic, Betamax, Video 2000 Video disks: CED, Laser Disks Phones: Trimphone, Ericophon Tape recorders: Grundig TK24, various 8-tracks Scopes: HP 1980B, Telequipment D43R Signal generators: Tektronix Logic analysers: Gould K100D EPROM programmers: Data I/O, Stag Calculators: HP, Texas Instruments, Sinclair, Rockwell Personal organisers: Psion, AgendA, HP Cameras: Canon AE-1, A-1 and T90 There are some photos on my Old Sad Things web-page: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/oldsad.htm -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 07:58:56 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > What really puts me off emulators is that they're so awfully lame. How can an > emulator be lame? Well, it's not as much the emulators as the crowd > surrounding them. They're usually Win#? kids who know nothing about old > computers, really don't care, and just want games, games, games, all for free. Apples and oranges, Iggy. That's a totally different emulator world than the one I'm talking about. In the world I'm talking about, I don't think anyone creating emulators is under 40 years of age (well, Daniel Seagraves is under 40, I think). However, MAME32 which I assume is one of the game emulators to which you're referring, is well-constructed. And since the mainframe that I'm working to emulate had a vector graphics display as its system console, rather than reinvent the wheel, I intend on using the MAME32 codebase to build the CDC 6602/6612 display console emulator. This is a serious project that will be able to run all the operating systems and product set software that the real iron was running in 1976. Eventually, it will even have emulated card readers and punches; a web page will provide the user the ability to create what appear to be perfect IBM unit-records (punch cards), in the form of an image, then the punched card will go into a visually-represented deck. Then, you'll be able to grab the deck with the mouse, with the pointer changing into a hand, as you drop the deck into the image of a card reader. The job will then be read by the emulated mainframe, and processed until completion. Simulated lineprinters will be constructed using captured images of the actual "fonts" used by the printer (chain, band, etc). I may even include an option for greenbar paper. But ultimately, my underlying motivation is the same as the "game-kiddi3s" to which you refer: they can't afford the real thing, and neither can I. If I owned the mainframe of my choice, running it for a single week could consume my entire year's salary. Now, I don't want to dissuade you from your opinion. But I think perhaps you hadn't thought about emulators in the broader context to which I'm referring... Regards, -dq From Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com Fri Sep 14 08:14:11 2001 From: Robert_Feldman at jdedwards.com (Feldman, Robert) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: essential CP/M files Message-ID: It would be great if you could do WordMaster, the precursor to WordStar. It was a very useful editor for programming and its pattern of control-keys for cursor movement and editing was used by many other programs. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Battle [mailto:frustum@pacbell.net] Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:34 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: essential CP/M files Allison wrote: >How about a decent editor? I used CP/M just a bit back in the day, and I'm only now learning a bit more about it. Do you have any recommendations? I've seen TED in one of the CP/M archives, but I haven't gotten far enough along to see if I can get it to run on a Sol. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 14 08:49:39 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Sep 13, 2001 08:55:17 PM Message-ID: <200109141349.f8EDndh01990@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > >keyboard. > > What makes the LK461 special? The LK461 (and related keyboards, like the LK46W) have the same layout as the LK401, including all the keys. I use a couple on my Alphas and VT525. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 14 08:50:42 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "ajp166" at Sep 13, 2001 11:47:18 PM Message-ID: <200109141350.f8EDog802000@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> PIII still cant emulate the keyboard layout of a Vt100 or VT220 worth > >> poop. > > > >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > >keyboard. > > > Thats one solution. The other is a real VT{100|125|330|340} or H19 since > I do have them and prefer the feel of the keyboards and their respective > layouts. The LK461 has the same feel and layout as the LK201 used on the VT-330 and VT-340. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 14 08:59:38 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... References: <1327.657T2300T3365617optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <3BA20D4A.BBAF9962@ecubics.com> Iggy Drougge wrote: > >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU and 0.5K of L1 cache! Have > >two of these, OS 7.1 and 7.0.1... > > Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? 68882 is right for 68030 & 68020. 68881 only foir 68020. (talking about hardware, no software) cheers From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 14 09:03:45 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Postponed References: <3BA14B53.39204FC7@rain.org> <5.1.0.14.0.20010914061303.00a56ba0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: <3BA20E41.BF71FF1C@ecubics.com> "Charles E. Fox" wrote: > > Sellam, have you heard anything from Hans? > > Regards > He left evergreen/colorado on wednesday morning around 10:00 AM. And is driving on maximum/ridiculous speed towards the west ;-) cheers From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 09:10:03 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146709E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >Properly known as the 'Macintosh SE FDHD'. Yep, I got one of ! >these, running ! >OS 6.0.7, 50MB HDD, and 4MB RAM... ! ! I've got both kinds, one of which which is equipped with a ! 3Com Ethernet card. ! Unfortunately, 3Com seem to have forgotten all about making ! such a beast, and ! have even managed to reuse its model number on some PCMCIA card. =/ 3Com? I didn't know that they believed in Macintosh! ! >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU and 0.5K ! >of L1 cache! Have ! >two of these, OS 7.1 and 7.0.1... ! ! Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? My info is taken from the Apple Spec Database, and that's what they wrote... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 14 09:12:00 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3BA21030.1775E5A5@ecubics.com> Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > > What really puts me off emulators is that they're so awfully lame. How can > an > > emulator be lame? Well, it's not as much the emulators as the crowd > > surrounding them. They're usually Win#? kids who know nothing about old > > computers, really don't care, and just want games, games, games, all for > free. > > Apples and oranges, Iggy. That's a totally different emulator world > than the one I'm talking about. In the world I'm talking about, I > don't think anyone creating emulators is under 40 years of age > (well, Daniel Seagraves is under 40, I think). Why did you put this limit on 40 ? ;-) Most people I know working on emulations are just few years around the 40 ... cheers From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Sep 14 09:16:53 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Scanning (was Re: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010910170714.00907ca0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010914091653.0090c210@ubanproductions.com> Hi Clint, Thanks for the info. The 500FB sounds like a good choice, but I've only been able to find one company selling them (doing a web search) and it was for about $2500... --tom At 06:55 PM 9/13/01 -0600, you wrote: > >Hi Tom, > >I have a Bell&Howell 500FB 11x17 scanner with ADF that I a pretty >happy with. It'll do 400DPI native, and 600DPI interpolated, up >to 256 grayscale (no color). I've used it to scan a small number >of 11x17 schematics, and the results are reasonable, the main >problem is page skew. I've been working on a program to automatically >deskew pages (which works ok), and recenter the image in the page >(which doesn't). IIRC, I paid ~$1200US for it. > >I also have a Microtek MRS-800AJ which is 11x17 color (i forget the >resolution) but flatbed only. This scanner is too slow to use for >any sort of document scanning. You will die of boredem waiting to >switch pages and start the next scan. I'm happy with the color >reproduction however. Lots cheaper, ~$600US. > >Both are SCSI, which I consider to be a requirement because of the >amount of time required to transfer an image across USB. A zippy >machine to drive it (600MHZ/PIII) is also very desirable... > >Clint > >On Mon, 10 Sep 2001, Tom Uban wrote: > >> I started looking for an 11x17 scanner (also called A3 or tabloid, from what >> I can gather). They are hard to find and I was wondering if you have >> suggestions >> for a quality flat bed scanner which can handle the larger format, but is not >> to pricey. The ones which I have found also appear to be SCSI, is OK, but >> would not be my first choice. >> >> --tom >> >> At 02:16 PM 9/10/01 -0700, you wrote: >> >This topic has gone over the list a few times, from experience, the "best" >> >scans are 600 DPI black and white compressed into PDF files. This achieves >> >exactly what is needed, get the data without a lot of excess. The KA655 TM >> >that is on the DFWCUG site appears from the PDF to be 100 DPI/8 bit (note >> >that's 800 bits per inch net and the result is harder to read) I'll add >> >scanning this manual to my list. They don't appear to have come up with a >> >'standard' for their scans. That would help too. >> > >> >--Chuck >> > >> >At 01:01 PM 9/10/01, you wrote: >> >> > However, someone decided to scan some of the manuals as low >> >> > resolution 8 bit grey scale (what a waste of someone's scanning time!) >> >> >> >>Do you mean low or high resolution? There's no need for 48 or even 16 >> >>bit for anything not continuous tone. I got three manuals from DFWCUG >> >>and am very happy with the quality. Perhaps they could look into more >> >>efficient compression, though. >> >> >> >>John A. >> > >> > >> >> > > > From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 09:25:46 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146709F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Bennet's okay. He was just busy with other stuff, because of Tuesday. He sent this message to me... "...A lot of things went on hold due to the WTC attack... ...My brother-in-law was our only person in NYC, and while close enough to see the WTC, he was far enough away to have been in no immediate danger, though he had a time getting out of the city and home that day. I checked into taking my 10,000 lb. GVWR Ford Dually and 12,000 lb. GVWR 16' Beavertail Flatbed up to NYC for vehicle and debris removal, but alas, we don't have the funding to support that operation, and would have required corporate sponsorship. So it probably can't happen. Sincerely, Bennett --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Eric Dittman [mailto:dittman@dittman.net] ! Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 10:18 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? ! ! ! > Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? ! ! The last email I had from him was just before 8:00AM on Tuesday. ! -- ! Eric Dittman ! dittman@dittman.net ! Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ ! From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 14 10:02:41 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467097@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010914110241.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >> I dunno about splitting the list. Even my interest is in the > >I considered mentioning splitting the list (presumably into hardware and >software aspects) while writing one of my earlier posts in this thread. I >didn't actually mention it in the end. > >If the list was ever split (and I hope it's not), then I can assure you >I'd read both (or all) parts. > >> hardware side, like Tony, I'm sure there are many here that go both ways. IMHO, splitting the list is kinda like King Solomon splitting the baby... Classic computing can't happen without the hardware (you have to have a base reference for the emulator), and I think Tony would even agree with me that classic hardware is perfectly useless without some form of software to run on it... What's the fun of repairing an old machine (or building a new add-on -- in my case) if you can't bring it to "life?" >Becasue something doesn't interest me enough to do it doesn't mean I >don't want to read something about it. Who knows what interesting tip or >trick I'll pick up that will be useful to me... Altho I consider myself primarily a software guy & I've had precious little "real" experience with hardware, I've learned a *lot* from Tony (in the past, and also WRT my project) which have greatly influenced the design of my interface card. But -- once my card is finished (which it should be by December/January) what good is it without software? Oooh - I plug it in, the green power LED turns on... and... nothing. And altho I am (erm... at least was) pretty darned good at 6809 assembly, I'm sure there's things Tony & others here could help me with that as well, should I get stuck on something. Now, if anyone's ever *heard* of a SPDT DIPswitch bank, let alone where I could find some... otherwise I'll be stuck with jumpers (which is O.K., but dip switches would look nicer & be harder to lose from the finished project...) So far, Jameco, JDR Microdevices & B.G. Micro don't list them... == I'm sure I haven't said this enough, so: "Thanks, Tony!" == "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From foo at siconic.com Fri Sep 14 09:57:57 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: VCF 5.0 Postponed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010914061303.00a56ba0@mail.wincom.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Charles E. Fox wrote: > Sellam, have you heard anything from Hans? Yes, I finally got in touch with him last night. As I had warned him, he got stuck coming over the Rockies. Well, not "stuck" but he said he was only able to go about 15 MPH. That tells me that he's not as loaded down as he could have been, meaning he didn't find every last old computer in Denver, where he says he spent way too much time. Otherwise, he would've been sitting on the roadside somewhere high up waiting for the tow truck I promised I'd call for him. He was in Salt Lake City last night, and will probably be here sometime tomorrow. It's just as well I postponed the VCF, because he wouldn't have gotten here in time anyway. :) Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 10:06:04 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Sep 14 09:53:53 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: [Donna.Deleon@COMPAQ.com: Urgent Vax 7800] Message-ID: <20010914095353.F24473@mrbill.net> Some people in the Pentagon have a need for CPU and RAM for a VAX 7800.. Please contact Donna if you can help. Bill ----- Forwarded message from "Deleon, Donna" ----- From: "Deleon, Donna" To: "'mrbill@decdocs.org'" Subject: Urgent Vax 7800 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:42:28 -0500 Good afternoon Bill, I am a Compaq employee and participated on a North America conference call. During the call many things were mentioned re: the devastation that we all faced here in America. During the call it was asked that if there were any contacts that could be provided in search of as many as 70, 7800 Vax system that are needed at the Pentagon with deep urgency. Do you have any that you are willing to loan/donate etc.....or know of anybody that would be able to provide the same? Please feel free to contact me @ 719 592-6767 with any additional questions or leads that I can follow up on. Your help is greatly appreciated! Sincerely, Donna L. DeLeon ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From jss at subatomix.com Fri Sep 14 10:03:20 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <20010914093828.S62254-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> > What really puts me off emulators is that they're so awfully lame. How > can an emulator be lame? Well, it's not as much the emulators as the > crowd surrounding them. They're usually Win#? kids who know nothing > about old computers, really don't care, and just want games, games, > games, all for free. Many kids (and adults alike) run emulators (e.g. a Super NES (older 16-bit game console) emulator) to play games because the emu offer more capability than the games' original platform. For instance, in some RPGs, you can only save your progress within the game at certain times, which can be few and far between. With an emulator, you can suspend the virtual machine at any time you like and save memory contents and execution context(s). Later, you can resume exactly where you left off. Emulators also offer more portability than the real thing. A laptop with emulators for NES, SNES, NeoGeo, Genesis, etc. can go in much smaller places than the corresponding collection of the real hardware. Most of the people who run these emulators are somewhat classic-aware and are doing it for nostalgia. You have to remember that games have advanced quite a bit since those days. Today's "Win#? kids who [...] really don't care, and just want games, games, games, all for free", with their 1GHz computers and ultra-fast 64MB-equipped 3D accelerators, expect much more graphically from a game. To them, older games are bland and boring and wouldn't be worth the time to run in an emulator. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 10:09:30 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225741@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > Apples and oranges, Iggy. That's a totally different emulator world > > than the one I'm talking about. In the world I'm talking about, I > > don't think anyone creating emulators is under 40 years of age > > (well, Daniel Seagraves is under 40, I think). > > Why did you put this limit on 40 ? > ;-) > Most people I know working on emulations are just few years around the > 40 ... Precisely what I said. -dq From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 14 10:18:55 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225739@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010914111855.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: [snip] T>> > Since you can't (usefully) take a soldering iron to an emulator, it T>> > explains why I am not interested in them. Sure you can -- you can use them to disassemble the "fecal matter" that passes for a computer nowadays & reuse the jumpers/switches/headers/etc. to rebuild *good* computers! Too bad there isn't more 74-series chips on the boards nowadays... [snip] >To which I say 'Please, everyone else, post about your interests' Let's >have a more diverse range of stuff here. Tony, I'd prefer to modify this slightly: "Let's have a more diverse range of *On-Topic* stuff here..." I'll admit I paid no attention to this list some time back (4-5 years ago) because 80% of the posts were about VAXen -- That was a few years before I had one, and at the time they interested me little. I didn't post about what I enjoyed because of this, which was foolish. Nowadays, tho, I'd *love* to see 80% of the posts on this list about VAXen -- even if I still didn't have one. And, IIRC the list started in '95 or '96... I *might* have some archives on CD at home which could shed more light... Laterz, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Sep 14 10:37:07 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3015.657T2100T3126025optimus@canit.se> from Iggy Drougge at "Sep 14, 2001 05:12:42 am" Message-ID: <200109141537.IAA21692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> > I don't like emulators one bit. I run them every so often, but I really prefer > the original whenever I can. I don't really trust emulations, but that's not > the main point. > There is a point to emulators for those of us that are space constrained. I don't have the space to have more than two desktop-sized machines set up simulaneously. So for me, an emulator is a substitute for spending an hour packing away one machine and setting up another. Of course, the machines with good emulator support are the ones that I find least interesting so they'd rarely get set up anyway. In the case of CP/M machines, running an emulator on a modern machine with a decent OS greatly improves the development environment. I find myself developing software on my PIII in a native editor, compiling/assembling with MyZ80, and transfering it to the CP/M machines for use there. (Not that I do a lot of CP/M development.) Emulators that come with source can also be a lot of fun to hack at. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 11:16:43 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Emulators (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: > > Unfortunately, last year, one of our administrators hauled off all of our > > file cabinets of punched cards, and I don't know where else to find a > > copy. > > Is he a preservationist? Or was he just cleaning shop? He filled several dumpsters with irreplaceable classic computer stuff, without asking whether we wanted to part with any of it, and on a weekend, so that we didn't know about it until it was gone. Molten iron would be too gentle. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 11:20:57 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? The NSA needs to upgrade the hardware that they use for monitoring e-mail. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 11:24:17 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A7@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, the message below took over an hour. I sent it at 11:00, and now it's 12:26 when I got it back... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: David Woyciesjes [mailto:DAW@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu] ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:06 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org (E-mail) ! Subject: Why is this so slow? ! ! ! Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes ! (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get ! sent back out? ! ! --- David A Woyciesjes ! --- C & IS Support Specialist ! --- Yale University Press ! --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! --- (203) 432-0953 ! --- ICQ # - 905818 ! From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 11:33:33 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Need Electronic Soldering help.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A9@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Is there anyone in the CT area (I'm in New Haven) who is good at replacing the soldered chips? I have 3 (or is it 4?) DEC Multias, with the infamous Heat Death chip. I can pay/barter for the parts and labor... Replies should pobably be direct to me, off list... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 11:57:01 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: <200109141350.f8EDog802000@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "ajp166" at Sep 13, 2001 11:47:18 PM Message-ID: >The LK461 has the same feel and layout as the LK201 used on the VT-330 and >VT-340. Oh, I'm going to have to disagree there! The LK201 has the same layout, but the LK401 has a better look and feel! The only advantage the LK201 has is the place to stick something that tells what the function keys are mapped to. In fact the LK401 feels about as good as my Apple Extended II Keyboard! Zane PS if ever there was a time to start keyboard wars.... -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 12:08:15 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010914093828.S62254-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573F@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >Many kids (and adults alike) run emulators (e.g. a Super NES (older 16-bit >game console) emulator) to play games because the emu offer more >capability than the games' original platform. For instance, in some RPGs, >you can only save your progress within the game at certain times, which >can be few and far between. With an emulator, you can suspend the virtual >machine at any time you like and save memory contents and execution >context(s). Later, you can resume exactly where you left off. > >Emulators also offer more portability than the real thing. A laptop with >emulators for NES, SNES, NeoGeo, Genesis, etc. can go in much smaller >places than the corresponding collection of the real hardware. > >Most of the people who run these emulators are somewhat classic-aware and >are doing it for nostalgia. You have to remember that games have advanced >quite a bit since those days. Today's "Win#? kids who [...] really don't >care, and just want games, games, games, all for free", with their 1GHz >computers and ultra-fast 64MB-equipped 3D accelerators, expect much more >graphically from a game. To them, older games are bland and boring and >wouldn't be worth the time to run in an emulator. I was going to disagree with Iggy on this last night, but you just hit home. Where the problem lies is when people are writing emulators for platforms that people are currently developing for. It's a two edge sword. I'll admit I first played Neo Geo games on MAME, but my wife and I now own a 4-Slot cabinet, a bunch of games, and the handheld. Plus we're looking into eventually getting the home cart system and a Neo Geo CDZ. As someone that owns the actual hardware I'd like to see new games come out, and in spite of the fact that the platform is over ten years old SNK is still developing new games. Emulation hurts the commercial viability of the platform. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com Fri Sep 14 12:10:26 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010914110241.014601c0@mail.30below.com> from Roger Merchberger at "Sep 14, 2001 11:02:41 am" Message-ID: <200109141710.f8EHARS24362@bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com> > Now, if anyone's ever *heard* of a SPDT DIPswitch bank, let alone where I > could find some... otherwise I'll be stuck with jumpers (which is O.K., but > dip switches would look nicer & be harder to lose from the finished > project...) So far, Jameco, JDR Microdevices & B.G. Micro don't list them... > > == I'm sure I haven't said this enough, so: "Thanks, Tony!" == > > "Merch" > -- > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. I've never seen SPDT dipswitches in computers. The closest thing I've seen, I believe, are the dip switches in Sears Garage Door Openers and the handheld clicker for them. They've got two positions + and - but a central neutral position IIRC which makes them kind of SPDT with a neutral position. Hope this is some help. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 12:11:15 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <023401c13d17$6e545fd0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722572B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >An idea that I've been thinking about is the re-implementation of a classic >architecture (for me, probably a PDP-11) using entirely modern hardware. One >way to go about this would be to use a Xilinx FPGA. I know that this has >already been done for the PDP-8. Another approach would be to view a Wintel Mentec and I think one other company have implemented the PDP-11 in FPGA. IIRC, Mentec's version is about 4x as fast as a 11/93. >PC as a microcoded platform, and reimplement the PDP-11 on that hardware. >The microcode would be written in tightly crafted Pentium code. The machine >would bootstrap itself by loading the microcode from a special partition on >the hard drive. Since the hardware has memory to burn relative to the Now I like this idea! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From foo at siconic.com Fri Sep 14 12:12:08 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes > > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? > > The NSA needs to upgrade the hardware that they use for monitoring e-mail. Yeah, apparently they're still using VAX 7800s. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 14 12:18:37 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Has anyone heard from Bennet (dec.parts@verizon.net)? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146709F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3BA23BED.B3DF49@internet1.net> That's sad the helping requires corporate sponsership. Maybe they are tring to eliminate undeeded congestion? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA David Woyciesjes wrote: > > Bennet's okay. He was just busy with other stuff, because of > Tuesday. He sent this message to me... > > "...A lot of things went on hold due > to the WTC attack... > > ...My brother-in-law was our only person in NYC, and > while close enough to see the WTC, he was far > enough away to have been in no immediate danger, > though he had a time getting out of the city and > home that day. I checked into taking my 10,000 lb. > GVWR Ford Dually and 12,000 lb. GVWR 16' Beavertail > Flatbed up to NYC for vehicle and debris removal, > but alas, we don't have the funding to support that > operation, and would have required corporate > sponsorship. So it probably can't happen. > > Sincerely, > > Bennett From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 12:25:28 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:33 2005 Subject: Need Electronic Soldering help.... Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670AC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ***This is sent to the whole ClaasicCmp list, since others may/will have 166Alpha Multias too...*** Pat --- Well, the Multia Heat Death Syndrome (MHDS) is mentioned here... http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/alpha/multiafaq.html#heat-death ...it seems to affect only Multias with the 166MHz Alpha processor. It is on the underside of the board, at the edge closest to the power supply, label E215. One of my Multias just froze, and won't boot up since. Probably MHDS... Common recommendations for Multias is to replace that chip right away. Forgot to do that myself :-/ Doh! Second is to remove the red thermal resistor from the cooling fan (2 yellow wires), which then allows the fan to run at full speed all the time. Or just replace the fan with something that has more cfm output. Once you've got that covered, you should be all set. ---If you put a 2.5" IDE laptop HDD in it, remember that SRM console cannot see it, and therefore cannot boot a kernel off it. You have to either boot from a SCSI HDD, or load the kernel off the floppy, which then can see the IDE HDD and use it. ARC console can boot from either SCSI or IDE. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Pat Barron [mailto:pat@transarc.ibm.com] ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:06 PM ! To: David Woyciesjes ! Subject: Re: Need Electronic Soldering help.... ! ! ! David, ! ! I wish I could help you (if I was closer, I'd be happy to). But, your ! message caught my attention - could you explain what you mean ! by the "heat ! death chip"? I am guessing you are referring to a chip that ! has a history ! of failure due to overheat, but which one is it? I have a ! Multia that I ! have not done much with just yet; wondering what sorts of ! problems I can ! expect .... ! ! Thanks, ! --Pat. ! ! From west at tseinc.com Fri Sep 14 12:30:59 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <003b01c13d43$0d931250$d201a8c0@jay> Yes, I know exactly why it takes 15-20 minutes for postings to be echoed to the list. How is this a problem? There's several reasons why it is set this way, but if it's a problem for folks that classiccmp reflections take 30 mins to go out, just let me know. Jay West ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:06 AM Subject: Why is this so slow? > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 14 12:49:48 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 2001 09:57:01 AM Message-ID: <200109141749.f8EHnmv02344@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >The LK461 has the same feel and layout as the LK201 used on the VT-330 and > >VT-340. > > Oh, I'm going to have to disagree there! The LK201 has the same layout, > but the LK401 has a better look and feel! The only advantage the LK201 has > is the place to stick something that tells what the function keys are > mapped to. In fact the LK401 feels about as good as my Apple Extended II > Keyboard! Okay, this lead me to pull an LK201 out of the closet. You're right, the LK401 is not as mushy as the LK201. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 14 13:09:43 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: [Donna.Deleon@COMPAQ.com: Urgent Vax 7800] In-Reply-To: <20010914095353.F24473@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010914180943.26930.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com> I don't understand. The Pentagon is asking for donations or loans? Have they run out of money? I hope this is not an example of someone trying to take advantage of a national catatrophe. Bill Amsterdam, NL --- Bill Bradford wrote: > Some people in the Pentagon have a need for CPU and > RAM for a VAX > 7800.. Please contact Donna if you can help. > > Bill > > ----- Forwarded message from "Deleon, Donna" > ----- > > From: "Deleon, Donna" > To: "'mrbill@decdocs.org'" > Subject: Urgent Vax 7800 > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:42:28 -0500 > > Good afternoon Bill, I am a Compaq employee and > participated on a North > America conference call. > During the call many things were mentioned re: the > devastation that we all > faced here in America. > During the call it was asked that if there were any > contacts that could be > provided in search of as many as 70, 7800 Vax system > that are needed at the > Pentagon with deep urgency. > Do you have any that you are willing to loan/donate > etc.....or know of > anybody that would be able to provide the same? > Please feel free to contact me @ 719 592-6767 with > any additional questions > or leads that I can follow up on. > > Your help is greatly appreciated! > > Sincerely, > > Donna L. DeLeon > > ----- End forwarded message ----- __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 13:15:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225743@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get > sent back out? Echelon? -dq From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 13:14:31 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Emulators (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225742@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > > Unfortunately, last year, one of our administrators hauled off all of our > > > file cabinets of punched cards, and I don't know where else to find a > > > copy. > > > > Is he a preservationist? Or was he just cleaning shop? > > He filled several dumpsters with irreplaceable classic computer stuff, > without asking whether we wanted to part with any of it, and on a weekend, > so that we didn't know about it until it was gone. Molten iron would be > too gentle. Epithelial vaporization by carbon-dioxide laser over a 10-year period? -dq From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 14 13:17:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <000d01c13d49$8ab4dba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm curious why it's important that it be quick? This is a mailing list, not a chat room. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Woyciesjes" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:06 AM Subject: Why is this so slow? > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? > > --- David A Woyciesjes > --- C & IS Support Specialist > --- Yale University Press > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > --- (203) 432-0953 > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > From sstratford at mbbc.edu Fri Sep 14 13:22:16 2001 From: sstratford at mbbc.edu (Steven J. Stratford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Olivetti ETX II In-Reply-To: <200109141726.MAA54420@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: Can anyone point me in the right direction to someone who might have information about an old CP/M machine and/or parts (specifically, keyboard): Olivetti ETX II. Thanks. --Steve From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 14 13:26:12 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing" (Sep 14, 11:02) References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467097@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> <3.0.1.32.20010914110241.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10109141926.ZM6774@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 14, 11:02, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Now, if anyone's ever *heard* of a SPDT DIPswitch bank, let alone where I > could find some... otherwise I'll be stuck with jumpers (which is O.K., but > dip switches would look nicer & be harder to lose from the finished > project...) So far, Jameco, JDR Microdevices & B.G. Micro don't list them... You certainly can get them. I have some in my junk box and they're listed in the Farnell catalogue over here (http://www.farnell.co.uk/). Farnell, incidentally, have outlets in the US. Depending on exactly what you want to do there are various options. Tyco make a "subminature washable PCB mounting" SPDT switch with pins on a 0.1" pitch which are side-stackable (part number SE1DGPCFN). EAO make one that's explicitly listed as stackable, 0.1" pitch, SPDT is part no 09-03290-01. ERG make SPDT (and others) as part of their 014 DIL switch series (the ones with colour-coded sliders), SDC1014, SDC2014 and SDC4014 are 1, 2, and 4-section respectively. They also do a recessed SPDT (SCD1 023 to SCD5 023 for 2/4/6/8 pole), slide switches in similar style which are 1-pole/8-way, 2-pole/4-way, and 4-pole/2-way (DS16C18, DS16C24, DS16C42). Enough? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 14 13:28:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: essential CP/M files References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010913231932.00c47710@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <001d01c13d4b$07948520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yeah, you're on the right track, though I'd certainly include everything that was in the original CP/M distribution package. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 12:34 AM Subject: Re: essential CP/M files > Allison wrote: > > At 07:05 PM 9/13/01 -0400, Jim Battle wrote: > > >If you were stuck on an island with a solar-powered CP/M machine and > >only > >one floppy disk in CP/M 2.2 format, which programs and utilities would > >you > >want on that disk? > > > > > >I'd have two floppies. > > Actually, my emulator can be configured for zero to four drives, and as > many disks as you want to create. > > >Any opinions of what I should distribute with the emulator? Here is what > >I > >am planning on so far: > > > >STAT > >PIP > >ASM > >MAC > >DDT > >ED > >DUMP > >LOAD > >SUBMIT > >XSUB > > > > > >How about a decent editor? > > I used CP/M just a bit back in the day, and I'm only now learning a bit > more about it. Do you have any recommendations? I've seen TED in one of > the CP/M archives, but I haven't gotten far enough along to see if I can > get it to run on a Sol. > > I have a half-completed project from a couple years ago to try and write a > "vi" editor in z80 assembly that would run in 8K-12K or so, but it got > interrupted by my work on the Sol. Maybe someday I'll get back to it and > make a CP/M vi. > > > > >Unfortunately, I don't have FORMAT, MOVCPM, PUTSYS, GETSYS, or SYSGEN > >since > > > > > >None of those are very meaningful for an emulator. > > I agree, other than just for completeness. > > > > >Although there are lots of replacement programs for those listed above > >that > >are undoubtedly better than the stock CP/M 2.2 programs, I am going to > >use > >the originals from D.R. and leave it up to any user who cares enough to > >customize it as they see fit. > > > > > >Why? will the emulator provide a way to create a new disk drive? > > I assume you mean disk, not just disk drive. If you really mean drive, > then yes, you can have up to four. > > If you meant disks, you can make as many disks as you want. Each lives as > a "virtual disk" on your actual hard drive as a binary image. Floppies can > be single or double sided, single or double density. What you put on them > is limited only to what software wants to put on them in the real software. > > In the real hardware, so in my emulated format too, sectors are actually a > bit bigger than the 512 bytes so that if someone had drivers that > understood some non-standard format (such as storing the track and sector > information in the header instead of just counting it in the driver) it > would work in the emulator too. Preamble and sync bytes are maintained in > the disk image as well, so if the driver doesn't write an adequate > preamble, the emulator can detect that and give a warning (if you want it > to). Does your driver use a non-standard checksum? No problem, the > emulator does what the hardware would. > > > >Allison > > In time I hope to add emulation for the Helios disk subsystem > too. Actually, I think I have enough information to emulate the hardware > right now; the harder part will be getting the disk images onto a PC. Bob > Stek has some old PT-DOS disks, and in time, he or I will try to dump the > disk image out to a PC. > > I think it would be a real archeological find to get PT-DOS running > again. Getting CP/M running on Solace is OK, but there really isn't much > mystery in CP/M. > > If anybody already has a PT-DOS disk imaged somewhere from ages ago, please > let me know about it. I'd love to use it to get that phase of the emulator > project underway. > > ----- > Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 13:30:14 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Incompatible Timesharing System (ITS) Starter Kit Available In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722573B@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: >> > Of course, you'll need Bob's simulator; you can check out >> > Zane Healy's emulators page, or pick up a copy at: >> >> For those that don't know my page is at: >> http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html >> and Bob's pages are at: >> http://www.tiac.net/users/mps/retro/ >> >> I've got links to all the ITS related materials on the net that I'm aware >> of. If anyone knows of any documenation of any sort on the net besides what >> is at Mirian's site, or the ITS reference manual, version 1.5 from MIT, I'd >> appreciate knowing about it. The same goes for any other documenation for >> TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 that isn't already listed on my site. > >On your ITS page, the last link: > > http://bony.umtec.com/pdp10.html > >appears to be stale... might just be down at the moment, but the sources >for ITS can also be found on John Wilson's FTP site. He requests that >downloads take place after hours or on weekends. > >-dq I think you're looking in the related links section at the ITS page, and I'm not sure who's page that is, I've only got the one page at this time. My page currently serves as a pointer to everything you need, though I'm slowly trying to get some information added. The link above was Daniel Seagraves page, and he no longer works there. I'd forgotten about John Wilson's site, though in looking, it has a bunch of ITS related stuff, but no sources. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 13:35:46 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Cl assic Computing Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B0@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! > Now, if anyone's ever *heard* of a SPDT DIPswitch bank, let ! >alone where I ! > could find some... otherwise I'll be stuck with jumpers ! >(which is O.K., but ! > dip switches would look nicer & be harder to lose from the finished ! > project...) So far, Jameco, JDR Microdevices & B.G. Micro ! >don't list them... ! > ! > == I'm sure I haven't said this enough, so: "Thanks, Tony!" == ! > ! > "Merch" ! > -- ! > Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers ! > Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. ! ! I've never seen SPDT dipswitches in computers. ! ! The closest thing I've seen, I believe, are the dip switches ! in Sears Garage Door Openers and the handheld clicker for them. ! ! They've got two positions + and - but a central neutral ! position IIRC which makes them kind of SPDT with a neutral position. ! ! Hope this is some help. ! ! Bill Well, you could always take a DPDT switch, and wire up only one half of it.... Try Radio Shack? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 14 13:32:51 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: essential CP/M files References: Message-ID: <002d01c13d4b$a96fc300$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you're getting into an editor, you should probably use something like the "real" WordStar of at least v2.2. That one can edit in columns, to an extent I've not seen in ANY other editor before or since. The one really important part of that is that one can then discard the assembler output and save only the source in a ".PRN" or ".LST" file. That will lead to needing MUCH less storage. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Feldman, Robert" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:14 AM Subject: RE: essential CP/M files > It would be great if you could do WordMaster, the precursor to WordStar. It > was a very useful editor for programming and its pattern of control-keys for > cursor movement and editing was used by many other programs. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Battle [mailto:frustum@pacbell.net] > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:34 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: essential CP/M files > > > Allison wrote: > > > >How about a decent editor? > > I used CP/M just a bit back in the day, and I'm only now learning a bit > more about it. Do you have any recommendations? I've seen TED in one of > the CP/M archives, but I haven't gotten far enough along to see if I can > get it to run on a Sol. > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 13:39:55 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: DEC Keyboards (was: Re: Classic Computers vs. Classic) In-Reply-To: <200109141749.f8EHnmv02344@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 2001 09:57:01 AM Message-ID: >> Oh, I'm going to have to disagree there! The LK201 has the same layout, >> but the LK401 has a better look and feel! The only advantage the LK201 has >> is the place to stick something that tells what the function keys are >> mapped to. In fact the LK401 feels about as good as my Apple Extended II >> Keyboard! > >Okay, this lead me to pull an LK201 out of the closet. You're right, the >LK401 >is not as mushy as the LK201. That's only part of it, the angle of the keys are slightly different, and (and this is the part that is really hard to explain) somehow the LK201 seems to have sharper corners to me, with the LK401 seeming to be a more polished feel to it. BTW, I just checked and it's a pair of LK450's I got recently, though I think I've got a LK461 up in storage. The LK450 is almost identical to LK401, except it's got the PS/2 interface, and the keyboard is about as mushy as the LK201. Of course for the people that prefer a VT100, none of these keyboards are a substitute, but for those that want a proper keyboard for VMS, they're great. I personally don't really care for the VT100 keyboard, though I am trying to figure out where in here I can set one up as I want to use it to access the PDP-10 emulators. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Sep 14 13:39:24 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel Message-ID: I brought this up some time ago, but never got a satisfactory answer... When I use the above combination (regardless of CPU board), while the system in general works fine, the deposit/examine functionality of the front panel stops working. Somebody said they knew of a fix, but then never posted anything else. I've looked at the schematics (I have them for both items) and can't for the life of me see anything that would conflict. Any help greatly appreciated. From bills at adrenaline.com Fri Sep 14 13:42:06 2001 From: bills at adrenaline.com (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <003b01c13d43$0d931250$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: > Yes, I know exactly why it takes 15-20 minutes for postings to be > echoed to the list. > > How is this a problem? It can make the turn-around time from question to answer take over an hour, resulting in time spent twiddling thumbs at the workbench instead of soldering. Which reminds me... (see next message) From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 13:57:11 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B2@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Jay --- Actually, the messages I sent in this thread, I've been checking the time, and they're taking 1.5 hours to come around... Is that normal? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Jay West [mailto:west@tseinc.com] ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 1:31 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Why is this so slow? ! ! ! Yes, I know exactly why it takes 15-20 minutes for postings ! to be echoed to ! the list. ! ! How is this a problem? There's several reasons why it is set ! this way, but ! if it's a problem for folks that classiccmp reflections take ! 30 mins to go ! out, just let me know. ! ! Jay West ! ! ! ----- Original Message ----- ! From: "David Woyciesjes" ! To: ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:06 AM ! Subject: Why is this so slow? ! ! ! > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes ! > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to ! get sent back ! out? ! > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes ! > --- C & IS Support Specialist ! > --- Yale University Press ! > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! > --- (203) 432-0953 ! > --- ICQ # - 905818 ! > ! From brian at quarterbyte.com Fri Sep 14 13:54:10 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200109141726.MAA54420@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BA1EFE2.415.8373FCD@localhost> Recall that Jonathan Engdahl recently announced his development of MSCP device drivers for 2.9 BSD. That work was made possible by the availability of a reliable simulation environment. For this reason alone, simulators are indispensible to the real-hardware camp, as tools for supporting the maintenance and development of operating systems. Furthermore, I think simulators can play a big role in encouraging the long-term collection, retention and dissemination of legacy software to run on either real or emulated hardware. Norm Aleks and I just acquired an IBM 1130, and as far as I can see, there is NO software archived out there anywhere. It's very discouraging. You can bet that we're going to post whatever we can get our hands on, along with the simh-based simulator I'm 75% done with, to hopefully reawaken interest in the 1130. That's my .4 bits worth. Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 14 14:00:19 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? References: Message-ID: <008d01c13d4f$7fcf7e60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I suspect that this delay is provided so that one can figure out how to word an apology for having made an inane comment in the midst of an OT thread. It's seldom used, though. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Sudbrink" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 12:42 PM Subject: RE: Why is this so slow? > > Yes, I know exactly why it takes 15-20 minutes for postings to be > > echoed to the list. > > > > How is this a problem? > > It can make the turn-around time from question to answer > take over an hour, resulting in time spent twiddling thumbs > at the workbench instead of soldering. Which reminds me... > (see next message) > > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 14 14:09:34 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: <200109141349.f8EDndh01990@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Mike Ford" at Sep 13, 2001 08:55:17 PM Message-ID: >> >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 >> >keyboard. >> >> What makes the LK461 special? > >The LK461 (and related keyboards, like the LK46W) have the same layout as the >LK401, including all the keys. I use a couple on my Alphas and VT525. What about electrical or connector differences? I'm curious as a bunch came into a surplus place, and one of the other junkies grabbed them all, but had no interest in the LK401. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 14:25:11 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B4@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Rich --- Actually, my time estimate was a little wrong. The messages take about an hour and a half... And the speed some discussions go at sometimes, it is almost like a chatroom. --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 2:18 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Why is this so slow? ! ! ! I'm curious why it's important that it be quick? This is a ! mailing list, not a ! chat room. ! ! Dick ! ! ----- Original Message ----- ! From: "David Woyciesjes" ! To: ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:06 AM ! Subject: Why is this so slow? ! ! ! > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes ! > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to ! get sent back out? ! > ! > --- David A Woyciesjes ! > --- C & IS Support Specialist ! > --- Yale University Press ! > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu ! > --- (203) 432-0953 ! > --- ICQ # - 905818 ! > ! > ! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 13:26:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3BA14921.E9C276C2@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 13, 1 08:02:41 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1985 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/ed8bcbd8/attachment.ksh From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 14 14:34:11 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: DEC Keyboards (was: Re: Classic Computers vs. Classic) In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 14, 2001 11:39:55 AM Message-ID: <200109141934.f8EJYBO02749@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Okay, this lead me to pull an LK201 out of the closet. You're right, the > >LK401 > >is not as mushy as the LK201. > > That's only part of it, the angle of the keys are slightly different, and > (and this is the part that is really hard to explain) somehow the LK201 > seems to have sharper corners to me, with the LK401 seeming to be a more > polished feel to it. A big difference is the LK201 uses those easily-lost black plastic posts to raise the back of the keyboard to a decent height. The LK401 does have a more polished look and feel. The LK201 keyboard always looked to me like the case was a temporary prototype. The old flip-top version of the LK201 struck me as too much for what it does. The simpler slot for the strip in the later version was simpler and less trouble. > BTW, I just checked and it's a pair of LK450's I got recently, though I > think I've got a LK461 up in storage. The LK450 is almost identical to > LK401, except it's got the PS/2 interface, and the keyboard is about as > mushy as the LK201. I wonder if the mushiness of the LK201 was a response to complaints that the VT100 keyboard was a little too heavy at times. As a VT100 keyboard aged the keys seem to develop little "catches" that made some keys more difficult to depress. > Of course for the people that prefer a VT100, none of these keyboards are a > substitute, but for those that want a proper keyboard for VMS, they're > great. I personally don't really care for the VT100 keyboard, though I am > trying to figure out where in here I can set one up as I want to use it to > access the PDP-10 emulators. A VT2x0/VT3x0/VT4x0/VT5xx can emulate a VT100, so use an emulated VT100 with an emulated PDP-10. :-) -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 13:34:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010913233514.00c8f970@postoffice.pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Sep 13, 1 11:43:49 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1710 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/42e02536/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 13:50:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "John Honniball" at Sep 14, 1 01:46:12 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2414 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/7a9e7060/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:06:48 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010914111855.014601c0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 14, 1 11:18:55 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1385 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/08d9e545/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:02:18 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010914110241.014601c0@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 14, 1 11:02:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3700 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/54124de3/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 14:09:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic In-Reply-To: <200109141710.f8EHARS24362@bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Sep 14, 1 01:10:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 518 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/c8dbd8b2/attachment.ksh From dec.parts at verizon.net Fri Sep 14 14:38:26 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: VAX 7800 CPU and Memory Modules Message-ID: <3BA25CB2.7E92@verizon.net> Hi Gang, With our contacts to 1200 companies, in 100 countries, on 6 continents, my company is going to try to source these parts. It's doubtful they would buy directly from private individuals in single quantities, but we will. If any of you have CPU and Memory modules for VAX 7800's that you would like to sell, email back the module numbers and your asking prices immediately. Sincerely, Bennett From millerbj at umich.edu Fri Sep 14 15:03:44 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 Message-ID: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> The other day, my University (U of M @ A^2) threw away an old PowerStation 530. Having never seen anything like it before, I grabbed it up and carted it to my dorm room (alone). I've never really seen anything this old, and I'm not sure if this behemoth is even worth keeping. Perhaps it could replace my current Pentium I 110MHz (24MB RAM) as a server, but I'm not sure. Anyway, anyone here have any experience with these machines? Know where I can get a manual? I've only been a computer geek for about... oh... 6 years now, so I've never seen the monitor hook-up either... it's mini-coax and looks like the diagram below: (o)(o)(o) I'm assuming that's RGB... Thanks in advance for any and all help. Now, back to trolling. :o) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 14 15:13:26 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: "Jonathan Engdahl" "RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing" (Sep 14, 8:18) References: <023401c13d17$6e545fd0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <10109142113.ZM6892@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 14, 8:18, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > An idea that I've been thinking about is the re-implementation of a classic > architecture (for me, probably a PDP-11) using entirely modern hardware. [...] > Another approach would be to view a Wintel > PC as a microcoded platform, and reimplement the PDP-11 on that hardware. > The microcode would be written in tightly crafted Pentium code. The machine > would bootstrap itself by loading the microcode from a special partition on > the hard drive. Why not burn it into (EP)ROM? 64K for the opcode jump table fits in a 27512, you maybe want about the same again for the code, and that would fit in some devices used for BIOS ROMs these days. Or put it on a SIMM or DIMM. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 14 15:22:29 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B7@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! From: Richard Erlacher [mailto:edick@idcomm.com] ! ! I suspect that this delay is provided so that one can figure ! out how to word an ! apology for having made an inane comment in the midst of an ! OT thread. It's ! seldom used, though. Rich --- Was that a poke at me? :-) --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 14 15:22:01 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B4@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010914162201.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that David Woyciesjes may have mentioned these words: >Rich --- > Actually, my time estimate was a little wrong. The messages take >about an hour and a half... [snip] I've not seen lags anywhere near that -- mebbe 5-10 minutes at most. My Eudora checks mail every 4 minutes, and it's usually 2 checks & it's there. Methinks it might be something on your end... Have you called your ISP? I'll time this one and see what I end up with... HTH, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 14 15:25:17 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "Mike Ford" at Sep 14, 2001 12:09:34 PM Message-ID: <200109142025.f8EKPH702853@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >> >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > >> >keyboard. > >> > >> What makes the LK461 special? > > > >The LK461 (and related keyboards, like the LK46W) have the same layout as the > >LK401, including all the keys. I use a couple on my Alphas and VT525. > > What about electrical or connector differences? > > I'm curious as a bunch came into a surplus place, and one of the other > junkies grabbed them all, but had no interest in the LK401. The LK461 has a PS/2 connector. The LK401 has a phone-jack connector. The LK401 can only be used with a VT2x0/VT3x0/VT4x0 terminal. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From donm at cts.com Fri Sep 14 15:47:06 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <003b01c13d43$0d931250$d201a8c0@jay> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Jay West wrote: > Yes, I know exactly why it takes 15-20 minutes for postings to be echoed to > the list. > > How is this a problem? There's several reasons why it is set this way, but > if it's a problem for folks that classiccmp reflections take 30 mins to go > out, just let me know. It is a non-problem as far as I am concerned, Jay. In some cases I would not see it 'til the next day anyway. - don > Jay West > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Woyciesjes" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 10:06 AM > Subject: Why is this so slow? > > > > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes > > (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back > out? > > > > --- David A Woyciesjes > > --- C & IS Support Specialist > > --- Yale University Press > > --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu > > --- (203) 432-0953 > > --- ICQ # - 905818 > > > > From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 14 15:47:38 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <3BA26CEA.1C97D248@ecubics.com> "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > > The other day, my University (U of M @ A^2) threw away an old PowerStation > 530. Having never seen anything like it before, I grabbed it up and carted > it to my dorm room (alone). I've never really seen anything this old, and > I'm not sure if this behemoth is even worth keeping. Perhaps it could > replace my current Pentium I 110MHz (24MB RAM) as a server, but I'm not > sure. > > Anyway, anyone here have any experience with these machines? Know where I > can get a manual? Try www.ibm.com ;-) Anyway, check the real product number of this machine. Should be something like "7013 model 530" (?) then go hunting for the docs on their webpage ... Good luck From dtwright at uiuc.edu Fri Sep 14 15:59:24 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy>; from millerbj@umich.edu on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 04:03:44PM -0400 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <20010914155924.A1867628@uiuc.edu> Blair J. Miller said: > > Anyway, anyone here have any experience with these machines? Know where I > can get a manual? I've only been a computer geek for about... oh... 6 years > now, so I've never seen the monitor hook-up either... it's mini-coax and > looks like the diagram below: > > (o)(o)(o) > > I'm assuming that's RGB... Yup, it's RGB, sync on green. You need to get a cable to break that out to 3 BNCs to hook it up to a decent monitor that does sync on green... if you don't have such a thing, you should look for the IBM monitor that was hooked up to the machine. Fortunatly, if you've got a decent monitor and can find the cable (maybe in the region of where you found the machine) you should be able to just hook up that and a PS/2 KB & mouse and have something working pretty quick :) > > Thanks in advance for any and all help. Now, back to trolling. :o) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com Fri Sep 14 16:00:00 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> from "Blair J. Miller" at "Sep 14, 2001 04:03:44 pm" Message-ID: <200109142100.f8EL01b24899@bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com> > The other day, my University (U of M @ A^2) threw away an old PowerStation > 530. Having never seen anything like it before, I grabbed it up and carted > it to my dorm room (alone). I've never really seen anything this old, and > I'm not sure if this behemoth is even worth keeping. Perhaps it could > replace my current Pentium I 110MHz (24MB RAM) as a server, but I'm not > sure. > > Anyway, anyone here have any experience with these machines? Know where I > can get a manual? I've only been a computer geek for about... oh... 6 years > now, so I've never seen the monitor hook-up either... it's mini-coax and > looks like the diagram below: > > (o)(o)(o) > > I'm assuming that's RGB... > > Thanks in advance for any and all help. Now, back to trolling. :o) It's RGB 1024x768 Sync on Green IIRC. Do you have the AIX for it and how much memory is on this box. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From wonko at arkham.ws Fri Sep 14 16:32:50 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: ; from vance@ikickass.org on Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:48:15PM -0400 References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:48:15PM -0400, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > I want it. Put it on the truck for me, Brian. I'll find something good > to do with it. Either that, or I will find someone who has a place for > it. has it been decided who gets this? i'll pick it up for someone, but i need to know what the plan is. -brian From mirko.pikalo at guest.arnes.si Fri Sep 14 16:40:31 2001 From: mirko.pikalo at guest.arnes.si (Mirko Pikalo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: RT11 basic commands Message-ID: <000801c13d65$e1705070$646048d4@AMD800> Please, somebody helps me with RT11 basic commands. Where I can find them on the net? Mirko -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/d6cb065d/attachment.html From donm at cts.com Fri Sep 14 16:43:38 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: VAXEN Message-ID: Looks as though there is a growing demand for them. - don -------- Path: nntp.cts.com!galanthis.cts.com!newspeer.cts.com!newshub.sdsu.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!nf3.bellglobal.com!border1.nntp.aus1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!nntp3.aus1.giganews.com!bin1.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3BA123E5.CCB1F35C@iu.net> From: Bob C X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: VAX 7800 Systems or CPUs needed ASAP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 8 NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 16:28:22 CDT Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing X-Trace: sv3-JMoUAGiispUQRU0wjhKYuMTuQMXLo3hljdoJWqTau+DeJJ1pFvbWSWDRk+pkOKwIVY/GNjelq2JqzY3!5//51v4yYd2SKBszu/VredTz1sjnRL367Ttr614cxdfTn0ewLiOGSGhQ9wM= X-Complaints-To: abuse@GigaNews.Com X-DMCA-Notifications: http://www.giganews.com/info/dmca.html X-Abuse-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:28:22 GMT Xref: nntp.cts.com comp.os.vms:104521 One of our customers lost a lot of VAXes in the WTC attack. If you have any excess VAX 7800 let me know and I'll connect you with the right resources. Thanks Bob Comarow -- end of forwarded message -- From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Sep 14 16:51:44 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: <200109142025.f8EKPH702853@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > >> >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > > >> >keyboard. > > >> > > >> What makes the LK461 special? > > > > > >The LK461 (and related keyboards, like the LK46W) have the same layout as the > > >LK401, including all the keys. I use a couple on my Alphas and VT525. > > > > What about electrical or connector differences? > > > > I'm curious as a bunch came into a surplus place, and one of the other > > junkies grabbed them all, but had no interest in the LK401. > > The LK461 has a PS/2 connector. The LK401 has a phone-jack connector. The > LK401 can only be used with a VT2x0/VT3x0/VT4x0 terminal. > -- And various VAXstations/DECstations/Alphas... > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Sep 14 17:04:52 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> I don't know what happened! I thought the person who had it might have had contact with Brian directly? And then bad things had happened Tuesday. I have bcc-ed her once again. Kathleen, did anyone pick up those VAXen and HP 3000? thanks, -Gunther Brian Hechinger wrote: > On Mon, Sep 10, 2001 at 04:48:15PM -0400, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > >>I want it. Put it on the truck for me, Brian. I'll find something good >>to do with it. Either that, or I will find someone who has a place for >>it. >> > > has it been decided who gets this? i'll pick it up for someone, but i need to > know what the plan is. > > -brian > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From wonko at arkham.ws Fri Sep 14 17:04:11 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org>; from gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0500 References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: > I don't know what happened! I thought the person who had it > might have had contact with Brian directly? And then bad > things had happened Tuesday. I have bcc-ed her once again. > Kathleen, did anyone pick up those VAXen and HP 3000? i'm sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i'll be picking up the VAXen, but i have no need for the HP. i was wondering if it was figured out who wanted it. -brian From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Fri Sep 14 17:14:20 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225747@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > On the real machine you can solder up a few TTL chips, wire them to the > bus connector and add another peripheral. You can't easilly do that on an > emulator. Or you can solder wires onto the chips on the CPU board of a > mini, clip a logic analyser to them, and watch the data flow through the > ALU and registers. > > Yes, you can do _similar_ things with emulators, but not quite the same. > No flames intended, but I'll stick to the real machines ;-) BTW, if it wasn't implicit (it is to me), I wouldn't have much of a need for an emulator for a machine that's readily available, or if rare, easy on the pocketbook to keep running (parts, electricity, etc). We can't all be Megan Gentry, Eric Smith, or Daniel Seagraves (owners of DEC-10&20s who come immediately to mind)... Now, Jim Battle's doing a SOL emulator. Great idea, I might want to play with a SOL at work. But my SOL was the machine I did exactly the kinds of things you describe. Unlike many, I didn't buy even the complete SOL kit. I bought only the motherboard and a folder of schematics and instructions for component assembly. By December 1976, all it could do was display a test pattern consisting of essentially a dump of the character generator ROM. As time went by, I continued buying components. It was getting close to being finished, but I needed a keyboard. I bought one surplus, taken from a TI Silent 700. However, the strobe was inverted and either too long or too short (can't recall). So I fingered through Don Lancaster's TTL Cookbook until I came across the 74121, which I hadn't used yet. I used it to change the strobe width, and one gate in a NAND wired as an inverter to flip the logic direction. Next, I needed some kind of key-repeat. Like many early terminals, there was no auto-repeat, but instead, the keyboard included a REPEAT key. A couple of 555s and some more gates from the NAND, and I was almost done. I ended up adding a lightpen interface to the design, then built it up permanently using a Rat Shack proto board. Stuck that inside a generic keyboard enclosure along with the TI keyboard, and I could now talk to my SOL. For a monitor, I followed Lancaster's instructions on how to take an old B&W TV set and pull the unneeded circuitry (except for the tubes; they stayed in, heaters wired in series). The mods all helped boost the bandwidth of the monitor a bit. The image quality ended up being quite good, and I sold it to another guy who'd bought a complete SOL kit sans monitor (I'd bought an actual monitor by this time). I enjoyed every minute of the 18 months it took me to make that forty-dollar naked PC board into a usable computer. Or termninal, actually... its raison d'etre was to hook up to my beloved and much missed CDC 6600 & DEC-10! And I think I even got to like the smell of solder.. especially the Ersin Multicore stuff made in the U.K... why, there's some now, and no iron in sight... But as much as I enjoyed fooling with hardware, the software had an even stronger draw. Just as you can only erase a piece of paper so many times before it disintegrates, you can only re- solder a PC board so many times before you've fried it. And yes, I've used all kinds of techniques to repair such damage. But you can't damage software... which is one of the things that I find attractive about it. Emulators represent the ultimate convergence of hardware and software... Hey, I just had an idea... how about an emulator that goes all the way down to the component level? One which actually emulates resisters, capacitors, transistors, and 7400-series chips. It could also have an emulated soldering iron & solder. Ever wish you had three hands for a difficult assembly? No problem in this proposed emulator! We'll just add an emulated hand... or two... or... ;-) -dq From jss at subatomix.com Fri Sep 14 17:13:13 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Paging Bill Bradford In-Reply-To: <10109132056.ZM5995@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <20010914012808.K61225-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 13 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 13, 13:05, Bill Bradford wrote: > > > DNS be brokie. > > Um, not necessarily. [...] subatomix.com is indeed a valid domain > name, [...] whose nameserver (ns1.domaindiscover.com) will give you > the A record and MX record. [...] However, there's no necessary > correspondence between the domain name registrar, DNS provider for > forward lookups, and ISP who provides the actual connection and > address (usually also the DNS provider for reverse lookups). Yes, that is what is going on here. I've used DomainDiscover's facilities to point subatomix.com at the IP of my router (one of those LinkSys BEFSR units), behind which hides my home network. The router forwards a few ports, including 25, to my server box on the inside. I've got a cable modem connection with DHCP-assigned IP addresses. My situation is made possible by the fact that DHCP setup here always gives you the same IP address. Unfortunately, the setup also prevents reverse lookups from working. > (1) turn off the double check, He shouldn't have to do that just to make my mail work. > (2) have Jeffrey's machine give its mmcable.com name when sending mail I'll try to get that set up. > (3) have Jeffrey's machine relay mail through mmcable's server I don't want to do that. Their smtp servers have a nasty habit of randomly delaying mail by somewhere between 1 and infinity days. > (4) persuade mmcable to include his properly registered domain name in > their DNS. Ha! That would be the day! They are most definitely not the friendliest people in town. I'm lucky they don't just forbid their subscribers from running servers at all. Someday, when I have an improved cash flow, I'll get something a little better for my purposes. For the moment, though, I'm stuck with what I have. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 14 17:20:45 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:34 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010914162201.014601c0@mail.30below.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B4@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010914182045.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Roger Merchberger may have mentioned these words: >Rumor has it that David Woyciesjes may have mentioned these words: >I'll time this one and see what I end up with... Yea, I'm replying to myself... I must be schizophrenic... :-) I got busy with customers (at work) so I checked the headers - all of the Received: headers are undisturbed, so I could figure out a round-trip time... and the message took 34 minutes. It sounds like Jay has a 30-minute batch processing interval on the messages - as to why he might do that, it's probably to conserve bandwidth and/or CPU time. If he's hosting this at his work, it may be to conserve resources for a personal endeavor. *Personally*, I'd like to see a little quicker turnaround (~15-min. or so) but that's solely MHO, and I have *no* complaints whatsoever for Jay -- as far as I'm concerned he's gone far above & beyond the call of duty WRT hosting this list. If I haven't said it enough, here it is again: Thanks, Jay!!! :-) If you are seeing a 90+minute turnaround, you might want to check with your mailserver (I co-own an ISP, so all I have to do is telnet to check mine...) and see if there's any problems on your end... Anyway, I HTH, "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com Fri Sep 14 17:43:43 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Sep 14, 2001 08:09:30 pm" Message-ID: <200109142243.f8EMhhk25466@bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com> > > I've never seen SPDT dipswitches in computers. > > > > The closest thing I've seen, I believe, are the dip switches > > in Sears Garage Door Openers and the handheld clicker for them. > > > > They've got two positions + and - but a central neutral > > position IIRC which makes them kind of SPDT with a neutral position. > > I remember a couple of Holtek (I think) chips for remote control where > the address inputs were 3-state (pulled high, pulled low, or floating). > Does said garage door opener use those, I wonder? > > -tony I'll have to check. I know this was for the Garage Opener code... It was basically set your own code for the door opener, the remote and the panel of chicklet switches next to the door. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From cmcmanis at netapp.com Fri Sep 14 17:43:47 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: [Donna.Deleon@COMPAQ.com: Urgent Vax 7800] In-Reply-To: <12D66288.DF654CCF@mindspring.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A5@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010914153652.00a37820@mcmanis.com> Maybe the Pentagon is going to use VAX 7800's in their retaliatory strike for the WTC attacks. They are certainly as heavy as DU rounds :) Seriously though, a couple of things have come to light in the aftermath of this event: 1) VAXen are so reliable that several people keep them in production envirionments even today. 2) When you destroy a facility at large as the WTC and Pentagon off site backups don't help if they only system of capable of running your backups gets destroyed as well. Only the very serious disaster recovery plans consider the case that the entire datacenter is destroyed. At 01:50 PM 1/6/80, you wrote: >Area code 719? THAT'S NEWFOUNDLAND! SOMETHING IS UP! From matt at knm.yi.org Fri Sep 14 17:33:53 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Wanted: QBus ESDI controller Message-ID: Hi, Before I get swamped with "Hey, why not get a SCSI controller instead" replies - I have a few unused fullheight ESDI drives, and I figure the best box I have to put them in is my MV3300. Sooo... poor little me sat here in Manchester, UK has a MV3300 just waiting for an ESDI controller, and I figured someone out there in vaxenland might have one going spare for the cost of postage, and maybe a contribution of some sort (but not too much cause I am but a poor student). So - anyone out there think they can help? :&) -- Matt --- Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From zmerch at 30below.com Fri Sep 14 17:52:37 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010914185237.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Blair J. Miller may have mentioned these words: >The other day, my University (U of M @ A^2) [snip] Without looking at your email address, it took me a moment to figure out where you were... I'm up in Sault Ste. Marie, MI right on the Canadian Border. Wonderful place until you're looking for classic computers -- prolly 1/2 of them in a 50-mile radius are in my basement... ;-) >now, so I've never seen the monitor hook-up either... it's mini-coax and >looks like the diagram below: > >(o)(o)(o) > >I'm assuming that's RGB... Yep... As the ascii graphic (while pretty) is not completely informative, if it's three mini-coax in IIRC a DB shell, it could be the same cable as is used on some DEC machines, notably some of the older RISC boxen & the DEC 3000/300 (which I have)... Unforch, I only have the 1 cable, and it's my wife's machine -- she gets angry when she doesn't get the Internet... ;-) Find yerself a DEChead or two, and they may have a cable to fit... and some older multisync Mac monitors with the 3-BNC input might work with it as well... HTH, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 17:57:26 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel Message-ID: <00cc01c13d71$4a9063a0$d7ef9a8d@ajp166> I'd have to see the schematics but I'd bet a timing difference or a conflict on a bus line usage. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Bill Sudbrink To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:31 PM Subject: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel >I brought this up some time ago, but never >got a satisfactory answer... > >When I use the above combination (regardless >of CPU board), while the system in general >works fine, the deposit/examine functionality >of the front panel stops working. Somebody >said they knew of a fix, but then never posted >anything else. I've looked at the schematics >(I have them for both items) and can't for the >life of me see anything that would conflict. > >Any help greatly appreciated. > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 17:55:16 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <00cb01c13d71$4a14a3f0$d7ef9a8d@ajp166> >From: "David Woyciesjes" >To: >Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:06 AM >Subject: Why is this so slow? > > >> Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes >> (seems longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? Fire your ISP or find out why they use a string for a link. Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 17:52:32 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <00ca01c13d71$49772b70$d7ef9a8d@ajp166> From: Eric J. Korpela >In the case of CP/M machines, running an emulator on a modern machine with >a decent OS greatly improves the development environment. I find myself >developing software on my PIII in a native editor, compiling/assembling with >MyZ80, and transfering it to the CP/M machines for use there. (Not that I do >a lot of CP/M development.) I like to and MyZ80 allows it to be more portable than my S100 crate or the Kaypro. Then again, my AmproLB system with 45mb disk is far smaller than most PCs. Allison From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 14 17:29:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225747@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 14, 1 06:14:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5957 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010914/575f5431/attachment.ksh From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Sep 14 17:51:00 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Brian Hechinger wrote: > On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: > >>I don't know what happened! I thought the person who had it >>might have had contact with Brian directly? And then bad >>things had happened Tuesday. I have bcc-ed her once again. >>Kathleen, did anyone pick up those VAXen and HP 3000? >> > > i'm sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i'll be picking up the VAXen, but i have no > need for the HP. i was wondering if it was figured out who wanted it. > > -brian We had two claims for it. One from Bob Schaefer, who said you'd come to his place on your tour. One was Lee Courtney, who would have to ship to CA. I'm sure Lee would arrange the shipment from wherever it is, I just thought, may be, Kathleen might want it out of her way with all the other stuff. It's up to you. Lee? It sounded like Bob would not genuinely absolutely ache for the HP. Lee would want to donate it to a school. On the other hand, Lee would need to ship it accross the country. Lee, what would be your shipping arrangements? Here are the "winners" according to my notes: VAX 11/730 - John Allain VAX 11/750 - Sridhar, Vance, Master of all that Sucks, Absurdly Obtuse HP 3000 - Lee or Bob But of course this is all subject to Kathleen if and when she wants these machines taken. Did you have any contacts with Kathleen now, Brian? regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri Sep 14 18:03:50 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <10109142113.ZM6892@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <025501c13d71$848a4ee0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > > Another approach would be to view a Wintel > > PC as a microcoded platform, and reimplement the PDP-11 on that > hardware. > > The microcode would be written in tightly crafted Pentium code. The > machine > > would bootstrap itself by loading the microcode from a special > partition > on > > the hard drive. > > Why not burn it into (EP)ROM? 64K for the opcode jump table fits in a > 27512, you maybe want about the same again for the code, and that > would fit > in some devices used for BIOS ROMs these days. Or put it on a SIMM or > DIMM. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York That actually was my first idea. That way, the hacked PC would be almost indistinguishable from a real PDP-11. The hard drive would contain an exact image of a PDP-11 disk, with no underlay of PC-ish partitioning. But I'm not sure how much ROM space is available on modern PC mainboards. I was thinking of using some extravagantly memory-wasting techniques to speed things up. I would assign one x86 register to each PDP-11 register. R0==BX, R1==CX,... R7==SI, etc. Opcode dispatch would be something like: lodsw ; ax=*si++ jmp [ax*4+table] ; goto *table[ax] The most commonly used execution routines would be just a few x86 opcodes, followed by a dispatch. For example, the emulation of "mov (r1)+,r0" would be: mov bx,[memory+cx] ; mov (r1)+,r0 inc cx lodsw ; dispatch next jmp [ax*4+table] You can probably tell my x86 coding skills are really rusty. Most of my x86 programming has been either on an 80188 (many years ago) or in C. But, you get the idea. With 65536 separate execution routines to write, you would probably want to write a special code generator in C to write the emulator for you. Basically a fancy macro processor. In the example above, if R1 happened to point to an I/O register, don't worry -- the i386 MMU has been set up so that this reference will trap. The trap routine will look at the address that caused the trap, and dispatch the appropriate I/O device emulator. The key is, let the MMU worry about I/O references -- the CPU emulation just worries about the CPU. Lots of detail unresolved: condition codes, for example. My suggestion, forget about them until you get to a branch instruction. Use the native x86 condition codes. The architectures are probably sufficiently similar. In the example above you might have to insert "and bx,bx" or whatever the x86 equivalent is after the MOV to set the condition codes PDP-11 style. (I think MOV sets the N and Z flag, right?) I haven't thought about this on paper yet, so I don't know how feasible it would be. I tremble at the thought of having to program the i386 protected mode. I tried it once years ago, and gave up. It's pretty messy. You'd also have to be very familiar with the PC bare hardware, which I am not. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri Sep 14 18:09:59 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 (was RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <3BA1EFE2.415.8373FCD@localhost> Message-ID: <025601c13d72$603d4a00$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Brian Knittel > > Furthermore, I think simulators can play a big role in > encouraging the long-term collection, retention and dissemination > of legacy software to run on either real or emulated hardware. > Norm Aleks and I just acquired an IBM 1130, and as far as I can > see, there is NO software archived out there anywhere. It's very > discouraging. You can bet that we're going to post whatever we can > get our hands on, along with the simh-based simulator I'm 75% done > with, to hopefully reawaken interest in the 1130. > Oh my, an 1130! I don't think we've ever encountered such a severe case of the classic computers disease. Brian, you need help. Do you want me to see if I have any 1130 listings in the attic? I learned/played/worked with an 1130, and a General Automation 18/30, from 1972 to about 1975. It was the first computer I ever saw or had access to. The college finally hired me, so they could better control what I did with that poor machine. I might, just might, somewhere have a listing of the in-core monitor. I implemented a hack, sort of a TSR, that took over the monitor, and swapped multiple copies of it, plus the user program, to disk, to make it into a multi-user system. My first computer job. I got to know the monitor inside and out. I figured out and wrote drivers for the four (4) Hazeltine 2000 terminals. The OS worked similar to the way CPM worked. I can't remember the name of it. CMS maybe? Everything revolved around the card reader. Have you ever had your head next to a CDC disk drive when there was a power glitch? They dump the bulk supply caps into the voice coil to retract the heads like *NOW*. BANG! The whole things rings like a big bell. I must have jumped two feet. One day, when I was a student tutor, I was the last one out, and turned off the machine. Next morning, when I came in (I always stopped by the computer center before class) the place was ominously quiet, and was swarming with IBM techs. I watched for a while, and then asked, "Is this switch supposed to be on?". There was a very large blue box in the corner with all the cables going into and out of it. We called it the "multiplexer". The only external feature was a single switch. I had turned it off the evening before along with everything else. The IBM guy turned it on, everything started humming, and they left quickly, without saying much. I was in the dog house for a couple days. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From Diff at Mac.com Fri Sep 14 18:21:32 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <001301c13d74$37c6f150$0201000a@laboffice> What sort of sized beast are we talking about here? Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Hechinger" To: "Gunther Schadow" Cc: "Brian Hechinger" ; "Absurdly Obtuse" ; ; Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 6:04 PM Subject: Re: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? > On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > I don't know what happened! I thought the person who had it > > might have had contact with Brian directly? And then bad > > things had happened Tuesday. I have bcc-ed her once again. > > Kathleen, did anyone pick up those VAXen and HP 3000? > > i'm sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i'll be picking up the VAXen, but i have no > need for the HP. i was wondering if it was figured out who wanted it. > > -brian From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Sep 14 18:25:49 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010914182045.014601c0@mail.30below.com> References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B4@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> <3.0.1.32.20010914182045.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: >If you are seeing a 90+minute turnaround, you might want to check with your >mailserver (I co-own an ISP, so all I have to do is telnet to check >mine...) and see if there's any problems on your end... The only time I see times that long or longer are when I send mail to the list from one of my machines at work. I have Eudora on my G3 set up just like I do here at home so that I can still read the list when I have a minute but it still uses our Exchange server to actually send the email. Since normally my mail is sent from Earthlink's server when done at home, this appears to cause a lag between the time I send them and they show up on the list. The other day it took a number of hours for one to appear that I had sent from work. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 18:29:55 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: DEC Keyboards (was: Re: Classic Computers vs. Classic) In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Sep 14, 2001 02:34:11 PM Message-ID: <200109142329.f8ENTuu17361@shell1.aracnet.com> > I wonder if the mushiness of the LK201 was a response to complaints that > the VT100 keyboard was a little too heavy at times. As a VT100 keyboard > aged the keys seem to develop little "catches" that made some keys more > difficult to depress. I'm guessing it's more the type keyswitches they bought, or did they outsource the entire keyboard? > A VT2x0/VT3x0/VT4x0/VT5xx can emulate a VT100, so use an emulated VT100 > with an emulated PDP-10. :-) I'm already doing that with a VT420 :^) Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 14 18:41:50 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Re: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? (Gunther Schadow) References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 14, Gunther Schadow wrote: > Here are the "winners" according to my notes: > > VAX 11/730 - John Allain > VAX 11/750 - Sridhar, Vance, Master of all that Sucks, Absurdly Obtuse > HP 3000 - Lee or Bob Uhhhh...Crap, I thought those VAXen were ours, Brian...whaddup wit dat? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 14 18:46:59 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: VAXEN In-Reply-To: from "Don Maslin" at Sep 14, 2001 02:43:38 PM Message-ID: <200109142346.f8ENkx018205@shell1.aracnet.com> > > > Looks as though there is a growing demand for them. > > - don Wasn't the VAX 7000 model 800 the last and most powerful model? If it wasn't it was close. Something tells me that we're going to see a lot of people located around the WTC looking for a lot of VAXen, and I shudder to think about some of the ancient hardware the Pentagon might be looking for. Zane From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 14 18:55:09 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Solomon Splitting the list... (was: Classic Computers vs. Classic Message-ID: <00e101c13d79$b3c73a80$d7ef9a8d@ajp166> >> > I've never seen SPDT dipswitches in computers. I have some. Also I have some S100 boards that used them for address selection. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 14 18:52:29 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: "Jonathan Engdahl" "microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing)" (Sep 14, 19:03) References: <025501c13d71$848a4ee0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <10109150052.ZM7091@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 14, 19:03, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: [ Pete wrote : ] > > Why not burn it into (EP)ROM? 64K for the opcode jump table fits in a > > 27512, you maybe want about the same again for the code, and that > > would fit > > in some devices used for BIOS ROMs these days. Or put it on a SIMM or > > DIMM. > That actually was my first idea. That way, the hacked PC would be almost > indistinguishable from a real PDP-11. The hard drive would contain an exact > image of a PDP-11 disk, with no underlay of PC-ish partitioning. > > But I'm not sure how much ROM space is available on modern PC mainboards. Does it matter very much? There's at least 64K bytes for the BIOS ROM and often twice that or more. Besides, that's why I suggested a SIMM or DIMM. What I had in mind was a bootstrap in the "BIOS" ROM socket and an EPROM or two on a home-made SIMM/DIMM with the main code. > You can probably tell my x86 coding skills are really rusty. Most of my x86 > programming has been either on an 80188 (many years ago) or in C. But, you > get the idea. Mine are worse :-) 80x86 is one of the few common architectures I've never written any amount of assembly language for. > Lots of detail unresolved: condition codes, for example. My suggestion, > forget about them until you get to a branch instruction. Use the native x86 > condition codes. The architectures are probably sufficiently similar. In the > example above you might have to insert "and bx,bx" or whatever the x86 > equivalent is after the MOV to set the condition codes PDP-11 style. (I > think MOV sets the N and Z flag, right?) Sets N and Z according to the value left in the destination, clears V, leaves C unaffected. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fmc at reanimators.org Fri Sep 14 18:35:42 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Bob Shannon's message of "Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:56:00 -0400" References: <3B9C2D4C.9020509@aurora.regenstrief.org> <3B9D6120.6AB8DB1A@tiac.net> Message-ID: <200109142335.f8ENZgJ63007@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Bob Shannon wrote: > Can you tell me anything about the HP3000/48? Physically, it's the size and almost the shape of a desk, meaning there's a woodgrain top and it can double as the console table. However, what's under the desk is the processor, memory, I/O interface cards, and power supply, which makes the whole lot kind of heavy. Oh yes, and if you use it as the console table, look down by your right knee for a power switch. Think about "right knee" and "power switch" a bit, and then go find something to keep them safe from each other. This will be faithful to contemporary practice; I've seen cardboard taped over the switch, and also seen those magnetic covers used by telco guys to cover mated 50-pin jacks (and stick them to a nearby steel desk, cabinet, or radiator) in office settings. -Frank McConnell From millerbj at umich.edu Fri Sep 14 18:58:17 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <200109142100.f8EL01b24899@bg-tc-ppp1394.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <009a01c13d79$1f94ff00$2ed0d58d@fluffy> > Do you have the AIX for it and how much memory is on this box. Uhm... I would assume that AIX is on it - though they do tend to 'wipe' all boxes they put up for sale or trash... on the other hand, they might not have done this one, or it might have simply been a moot point... until I can get some sort of monitor hooked up to it, I don't really know. As for the RAM, there are two full memory cards in the upper right side of the machine... I'm kind of leary of removing anything until I know exactly what I'm dealing with, so I don't really know how much memory each stick has on it. Why do you ask? Blair From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 14 19:19:32 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <10109150052.ZM7091@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > But I'm not sure how much ROM space is available on modern PC mainboards. > Does it matter very much? There's at least 64K bytes for the BIOS ROM and > often twice that or more. Besides, that's why I suggested a SIMM or DIMM. Who needs modern? The 5150 has 48K of ROM space (8K BIOS, 32K BASIC, 8K for overflow in case Microsoft didn't get the BASIC into 32K) From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 19:15:13 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <612.658T650T754179optimus@canit.se> Bill Sudbrink skrev: >> Yes, I know exactly why it takes 15-20 minutes for postings to be >> echoed to the list. >> >> How is this a problem? >It can make the turn-around time from question to answer >take over an hour, resulting in time spent twiddling thumbs >at the workbench instead of soldering. Which reminds me... >(see next message) Which might be quite nice for users who don't poll their mail more than once or twice a day, since that prevents snowballing threads from building up over a day. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/64MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 18:45:47 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Mac Plus as a webserver... In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146709E@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: <801.658T2350T455611optimus@canit.se> David Woyciesjes skrev: >! I've got both kinds, one of which which is equipped with a >! 3Com Ethernet card. >! Unfortunately, 3Com seem to have forgotten all about making >! such a beast, and >! have even managed to reuse its model number on some PCMCIA card. =/ >3Com? I didn't know that they believed in Macintosh! They obviously don't. =) >! >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU and 0.5K >! >of L1 cache! Have >! >two of these, OS 7.1 and 7.0.1... >! >! Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? >My info is taken from the Apple Spec Database, and that's what they wrote... EveryMac validates that. I stand corrected. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Haben Sie schon mal einen Wegweiser gesehen, der selbst den Weg geht, den er weist? --- Ludwig XV (K?nig von Frankreich, 1710-1774) From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 19:58:37 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <684.658T1850T1185667optimus@canit.se> Zane H. Healy skrev: >>The LK461 has the same feel and layout as the LK201 used on the VT-330 and >>VT-340. >Oh, I'm going to have to disagree there! The LK201 has the same layout, >but the LK401 has a better look and feel! The only advantage the LK201 has >is the place to stick something that tells what the function keys are >mapped to. In fact the LK401 feels about as good as my Apple Extended II >Keyboard! While the LK401 is a lot nicer to look at, it's only got two LEDs, which makes for a disappointing effect when DECwindows blanks the screen. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Fernsehen ist das einzige Schlafmittel, das mit den Augen genommen wird. --- Vittorio de Sica From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 19:56:14 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <200109141537.IAA21692@ellie.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <2812.658T700T1164837optimus@canit.se> Eric J. Korpela skrev: >> I don't like emulators one bit. I run them every so often, but I really >> prefer the original whenever I can. I don't really trust emulations, but >> that's not the main point. >> >There is a point to emulators for those of us that are space constrained. >I don't have the space to have more than two desktop-sized machines >set up simulaneously. So for me, an emulator is a substitute for >spending an hour packing away one machine and setting up another. Of >course, the machines with good emulator support are the ones that I find >least interesting so they'd rarely get set up anyway. I'm having a hard time believing that anyone could have bigger space constraints than I (since you've got an .edu address, we might be in similar situations =). Whenever I run a micro, I take it out of storage and put it in my lap for the duration of the session. Mind you, emulators may be nice if you can't be bothered. Digging out my Dragon would be such a chore ATM that I'd have to change clothes in order not to soil my everydays. The PCDragon emulator is nice to have in that case. Or if I just would like to check out a function in MSX-BASIC, then AmiMSX vill di just fine. But if I'm going to spend an evening with said language, pulling out the computer in question is certainly worth it. And I would never consider using a C64 emulator for anything but trying out something quickly, perhaps in order to validate a statement in a message to the list or something. Even though this prevents me from running a lot of nice software, due to a lack of proper transfer methods, I don't think it's worth it experiencing it through an emulator. I'd rather just wait for the day when I find a way to run it on a real Commie. Emulators are just substitutes, and I don't settle for those if I have any choice. But, if you're into running TOPS-10, and not a PDP, you have my blessing. =) And space constraints take on a whole new dimension if you're into running minis. But if there's any chance that I might encounter and run the original, I'll settle for that, even if it may take years. >In the case of CP/M machines, running an emulator on a modern machine with >a decent OS greatly improves the development environment. I find myself >developing software on my PIII in a native editor, compiling/assembling with >MyZ80, and transfering it to the CP/M machines for use there. (Not that I do >a lot of CP/M development.) Much like the PCDragon, I suppose. While it's an emulator by name, it's also a development environment, which is why I'm fond of it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 20:31:49 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <20010914093828.S62254-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <2639.658T2450T1515895optimus@canit.se> Jeffrey S. Sharp skrev: >> What really puts me off emulators is that they're so awfully lame. How >> can an emulator be lame? Well, it's not as much the emulators as the >> crowd surrounding them. They're usually Win#? kids who know nothing >> about old computers, really don't care, and just want games, games, >> games, all for free. >Many kids (and adults alike) run emulators (e.g. a Super NES (older 16-bit >game console) emulator) to play games because the emu offer more >capability than the games' original platform. For instance, in some RPGs, >you can only save your progress within the game at certain times, which >can be few and far between. With an emulator, you can suspend the virtual >machine at any time you like and save memory contents and execution >context(s). Later, you can resume exactly where you left off. I regard that as cheating. =) >Emulators also offer more portability than the real thing. A laptop with >emulators for NES, SNES, NeoGeo, Genesis, etc. can go in much smaller >places than the corresponding collection of the real hardware. Tough luck, I say. Get a Game Boy. >Most of the people who run these emulators are somewhat classic-aware and >are doing it for nostalgia. You have to remember that games have advanced >quite a bit since those days. Today's "Win#? kids who [...] really don't >care, and just want games, games, games, all for free", with their 1GHz >computers and ultra-fast 64MB-equipped 3D accelerators, expect much more >graphically from a game. To them, older games are bland and boring and >wouldn't be worth the time to run in an emulator. I think you're wrong here. I encounter this kind of kid a lot due to the game network sharing spaces with SUGA. Granted, they run a lot of fancy 3D games, and use a tone of disguest when speaking about graphics cards which have more VRAM than my previous computers had main RAM. But along with all the Quakes and Warcrafts, there are directories named "ROMz", with a lot of 8- and 16-bit games. They think they're fun, and why not? These games offer experiences which aren't available in today's games. Then there is the great retro trend as well, but I don't like it one bit. It's like any sub-culture which is invaded by media-aware, trendy people with no real regard for the core of the current fad, aside from the coolness factor. Of course, when I'm stuck with a PC, the one thing I use it for is running emulators. I don't care for PCs one bit, but at least I can play Super Robot War then. =) -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Menyn ?r inte lika sexig som telnet, det ?r h?rt men sant. Petri Oksanen #38 p? SUGA BBS From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Sep 14 20:18:42 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 14, Gunther Schadow wrote: > >>Here are the "winners" according to my notes: >> >>VAX 11/730 - John Allain >>VAX 11/750 - Sridhar, Vance, Master of all that Sucks, Absurdly Obtuse >>HP 3000 - Lee or Bob >> > > Uhhhh...Crap, I thought those VAXen were ours, Brian...whaddup wit > dat? Dave, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Did I mess that up? Brian made it sound like he can pick up but he wasn't particularly wanting any of them. That's what I understood. Also he didn't drop your name. If history tells us otherwise, we can fix that. I have no stake in either decision. I'm not even sure this whole thing will work out, because I still have no word from Kathleen (these days you gotta wonder if she's still alive :-(. sorry, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Fri Sep 14 20:29:09 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: L@@K and L@UGH! Message-ID: <3BA2AEE5.8030207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, see this http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1274886271 he's trying to sell a VAX 4000 CPU for $999.0 and no, it's not a typo, BuyItNow says $2000 something. cheers, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Sep 14 20:47:46 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <017c01c13d88$6e4d70a0$cb711fd1@default> If you decide not to keep the 530 let me know, guess I will have to start going over to the U again. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blair J. Miller" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 3:03 PM Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 > The other day, my University (U of M @ A^2) threw away an old PowerStation > 530. Having never seen anything like it before, I grabbed it up and carted > it to my dorm room (alone). I've never really seen anything this old, and > I'm not sure if this behemoth is even worth keeping. Perhaps it could > replace my current Pentium I 110MHz (24MB RAM) as a server, but I'm not > sure. > > Anyway, anyone here have any experience with these machines? Know where I > can get a manual? I've only been a computer geek for about... oh... 6 years > now, so I've never seen the monitor hook-up either... it's mini-coax and > looks like the diagram below: > > (o)(o)(o) > > I'm assuming that's RGB... > > Thanks in advance for any and all help. Now, back to trolling. :o) > > From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Fri Sep 14 21:02:57 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> <3BA0411E.5A9A3092@internet1.net> <3BA16363.15FC17E1@bedrocksys.com> <3BA19214.EF1DB278@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BA2B6D1.91025B3B@bedrocksys.com> Thanks for the netiquette lesson. Here's one for you: When the moderator says you are off topic, then your are OFF TOPIC. John P.S. All caps can also be used to provide EMPHASIS. P.P.S. If you insist on prolonging this assanine thread, then please reply to me directly and leave the list out ot it. Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Nope this ones fine, thanks.... and don't shout. > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > John W. Linville wrote: > > > > If that is the way you feel, the PLEASE FIND ANOTHER MAILING LIST! > > > > Chad Fernandez wrote: > > > > > > Thats about they way I feel too. Classic Computers can wait. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Sep 14 20:58:01 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <009a01c13d79$1f94ff00$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Blair J. Miller wrote: > > Do you have the AIX for it and how much memory is on this box. > > Uhm... I would assume that AIX is on it - though they do tend to 'wipe' all > boxes they put up for sale or trash... on the other hand, they might not > have done this one, or it might have simply been a moot point... until I can > get some sort of monitor hooked up to it, I don't really know. You should be able to get it to use a serial console. Having the key to get it into service mode is extra helpful. > As for the RAM, there are two full memory cards in the upper right side of > the machine... I'm kind of leary of removing anything until I know exactly > what I'm dealing with, so I don't really know how much memory each stick has > on it. Why do you ask? Making sure the RAM hasn't been removed is important. The amount would matter if you were going to try to move to recent versions of AIX. You can remove it, and as long as you put back in the same order if you have different sizes you should be OK. -- From oliv555 at arrl.net Fri Sep 14 21:07:06 2001 From: oliv555 at arrl.net (no) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? References: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670B4@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> <3.0.1.32.20010914182045.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <3BA2B7CA.D5A37378@arrl.net> Jeff Hellige wrote: > > >If you are seeing a 90+minute turnaround, you might want to check with your > >mailserver (I co-own an ISP, so all I have to do is telnet to check > >mine...) and see if there's any problems on your end... > > The only time I see times that long or longer are when I send > mail to the list from one of my machines at work. I have Eudora on > my G3 set up just like I do here at home so that I can still read the > list when I have a minute but it still uses our Exchange server to > actually send the email. Since normally my mail is sent from > Earthlink's server when done at home, this appears to cause a lag > between the time I send them and they show up on the list. The other > day it took a number of hours for one to appear that I had sent from > work. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 My posts have averaged about a 40 min turn-around. Doesn't bother me, but did have an interesting effect awhile back. I posted a give-away for some docs to the first respondent and got 2 replies before my original post came back to me. - nick oliviero From wonko at arkham.ws Fri Sep 14 21:05:16 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org>; from gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org on Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 08:18:42PM -0500 References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010914220516.O812@wintermute.arkham.ws> > Dave, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. Did I mess that > up? Brian made it sound like he can pick up but he wasn't > particularly wanting any of them. That's what I understood. ok, to get things 100% stright. i was indeed interested in the VAX hardware and was offering to pick up the HP if that was needed of me. > Also he didn't drop your name. If history tells us otherwise, in most cases i speak for dave and myself. we're a collective. :) > we can fix that. I have no stake in either decision. I'm > not even sure this whole thing will work out, because I > still have no word from Kathleen (these days you gotta > wonder if she's still alive :-(. i have been in contact with Kathleen and have made arrangements to pick up the VAXen. i will be going out next week when i get the chance. if i am to pick up the HP i need to know ASAP so i can grab it while i'm there. -brian From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 21:31:09 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010914111855.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <959.658T450T2114343optimus@canit.se> Roger Merchberger skrev: >Rumor has it that Tony Duell may have mentioned these words: >[snip] >T>> > Since you can't (usefully) take a soldering iron to an emulator, it >T>> > explains why I am not interested in them. >Sure you can -- you can use them to disassemble the "fecal matter" that >passes for a computer nowadays & reuse the jumpers/switches/headers/etc. to >rebuild *good* computers! Too bad there isn't more 74-series chips on the >boards nowadays... I found an absolutely lovely stone-age PC mobo in a big bag of PCBs I was given. Every bloody chip was socketed! That made for a fun hour with a screwdriver (serving as a DIL lifter). Now I have more 74LS logic than I'll probably ever use. If they built them like that nowadays, my grandmother would be able to fix the stupid things. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga! WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/ BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512 From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Fri Sep 14 21:16:28 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: IBM Keys was: IBM PowerStation 530 References: Message-ID: <008901c13d8c$6f0f8b50$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Thompson" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:58 PM Subject: Re: IBM PowerStation 530 > On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Blair J. Miller wrote: > You should be able to get it to use a serial console. Having the key to > get it into service mode is extra helpful. I'm missing a key for one of my AS400's Does anyone know about getting keys made or picking the lock? From allain at panix.com Fri Sep 14 22:13:27 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <001701c13d94$64e0e900$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> >> VAX 11/730 - John Allain > Uhhhh...Crap I remember thinking when this all started that it seemed like I had missed it since others' names were also being mentioned. If you want it, take it. I've been considering the house full for some time now. John A. From djenner at earthlink.net Fri Sep 14 22:23:38 2001 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Qualstar 1260 9-track tape drive manual anyone? Message-ID: <3BA2C9BA.DC01AF63@earthlink.net> Perchance does anyone have an operations and/or maintenance manual for the Qualstar Model 1260 9-track tape drive? This was a popular drive in the late '80s and early '90s, especially for use with PCs. It's very compact, works in vertical or horizontal attitude, and is basically reel-to-reel without any tensioning mechanism. It was sold by Qualstar and in systems by other vendors such as Overland Data and Chi Corporation. Thanks. -- David C. Jenner djenner@earthlink.net From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Sep 14 21:25:33 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225747@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010914222533.01e1b168@obregon.multi.net.co> At 11:29 PM 9/14/01 +0100, Tony wrote: > When I was there, I spotted something being sold as scrap metal >for \pounds 25.00. The thing was a complete Philips P850 minicomputer >with schematics, I/O boards, 2K words core and a real lights-n-switches >panel. Needless to say I bought it. I never heard of such a thing. Care to share some of the specs of this with us? And, is it currently working :-) ? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Sep 14 21:48:18 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Q. Who remembers the "see" editor for the ibm pc? Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010914224818.01e13730@obregon.multi.net.co> I just realized that every now and then I still use the first editor that I learned for the ibm pc, whenever I'm too lazy or don't need the power of vi (and the file that I want to edit is less than 64K in size). It is called see.exe and it is 32768 bytes long. The version string reads SEE: Screen Editor V2.0: (c) 1982,83,84 Michael Ouye The file date is 3-16-84. For its size, it is actually pretty useful and you can even record and replay macros. It is one of the first programs that I copy to any pc-compatible even if it (the pc) has been winblowsized. Is anybody acquainted with this program? carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 14 22:51:42 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Free: Sony CPD-1320 VGA monitor Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010914204755.024dd2e0@209.185.79.193> This is one monitor I can no longer justify owning. It is a nice trinitron VGA monitor with few hours on it, however it is a fixed frequency 31.25Khz/60Hz monitor. It makes an excellent "spare" monitor for a laptop with a damaged screen or a rack mounted system, etc, etc. At 13" it doesn't take up too much space and its easily lifted by one person. Its in Sunnyvale, CA. If you're willing to pay the packing and shipping (I do not have the original packing material so I would have to take it to be packed) I can mail it to you. Fortunately, it looks like tomorrow I'm going to finally get my mailings done for those of you who are patiently waiting. --Chuck From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 14 22:53:17 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: L@@K and L@UGH! In-Reply-To: <3BA2AEE5.8030207@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010914205154.025c8010@209.185.79.193> Well if its a KA694 then that wouldn't be a horrible price. I don't have my KA670 out of the machine so that I could check against that one. It definitely doesn't look like the KA692. --Chuck At 08:29 PM 9/14/01 -0500, Gunthar wrote: >he's trying to sell a VAX 4000 CPU for $999.0 and no, it's not a >typo, BuyItNow says $2000 something. From glinder at ews.uiuc.edu Sat Sep 15 00:18:41 2001 From: glinder at ews.uiuc.edu (Greg Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: PC7300/3b1- Still available. In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010914222533.01e1b168@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: I still have this thing up for grabs if anyone is interested- Same deal applies- you pay shipping, I give it to you, unless you can come get it in a suburb of Chicago. It boots, and isn't missing anything hardware wise. Sorry to those who emailed me before and got told no- I deleted your requests after Anthony Clifton said he was interested, and I just now was remembering that I have this and need it out of my folk's garage. If anyone still wants this, I'd love to give. Greg Linder glinder@uiuc.edu From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 15 00:33:15 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Q. Who remembers the "see" editor for the ibm pc? References: <3.0.2.32.20010914224818.01e13730@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3BA2E81B.3AB5BF51@internet1.net> I have a "see.com" that I picked up somewhere. It isn't an editor, However. Just a viewer as far as I can tell. It's nice because you can scroll up, not just down like when you type, "type file.txt | more". Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Carlos Murillo wrote: > > I just realized that every now and then I still use the first > editor that I learned for the ibm pc, whenever I'm too > lazy or don't need the power of vi (and the file that I want to > edit is less than 64K in size). It is called see.exe > and it is 32768 bytes long. The version string reads > > SEE: Screen Editor V2.0: (c) 1982,83,84 Michael Ouye > > The file date is 3-16-84. > > For its size, it is actually pretty useful and you > can even record and replay macros. It is one of > the first programs that I copy to any pc-compatible > even if it (the pc) has been winblowsized. Is anybody acquainted > with this program? > > carlos. > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 15 00:42:27 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914220516.O812@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3BA2EA43.444D2674@internet1.net> Well, Okay, which one of you is the Queen? :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Brian Hechinger wrote: > in most cases i speak for dave and myself. we're a collective. :) From donm at cts.com Sat Sep 15 00:52:01 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: SYM-1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I acquired a Synertek SYM-1 recently. It is in original box (albeit, a little taped up) and appears to be almost complete including manuals. The only obvious shortage is that it is shy six SY2114 memory chips. Anyone interested in it, contact me off list and we'll see what can be worked out. - don From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 15 01:02:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: ENOUGH ALREADY References: <00fa01c13bc8$77b6a100$d201a8c0@jay> <1000327411.18316.18.camel@DESK-2> <3BA0411E.5A9A3092@internet1.net> <3BA16363.15FC17E1@bedrocksys.com> <3BA19214.EF1DB278@internet1.net> <3BA2B6D1.91025B3B@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <3BA2EF0B.E80BD8B9@internet1.net> The only thing I did in this thread was to agree with Jeffrey Ingber. It is reasonable to let Jay know how I feel on the matter.... I'm just on the other side. I wasn't being rude or insulting, or telling him what to do...... and I kept it short. I replied once, and wouldn't have replied again, but for your rude comments about finding another list. Why didn't you reply off list if that is so important to you? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA John W. Linville wrote: > > Thanks for the netiquette lesson. Here's one for you: > > When the moderator says you are off topic, then your > are OFF TOPIC. > > John > > P.S. All caps can also be used to provide EMPHASIS. > > P.P.S. If you insist on prolonging this assanine thread, then please > reply to me directly and leave the list out ot it. From jrasite at eoni.com Sat Sep 15 01:56:30 2001 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: RT11 basic commands References: <000801c13d65$e1705070$646048d4@AMD800> Message-ID: <3BA2FB92.1633291A@eoni.com> If you have a full install of RT-11, "?" should get you the available commands. Jim From wilby98 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 15 02:12:53 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: VAX 7800 Systems or CPUs needed ASAP (was Re: VAXEN) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915071253.14839.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Instead of "connecting" us with the right resources, why not just post the email, fax, phone number, or the agency looking for these components??? (I hate it when people/companies try to make a profit off the misery of others.) Bill --- Don Maslin wrote: > > Looks as though there is a growing demand for them. > > - don > > Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:28:22 GMT > > One of our customers lost a lot of VAXes in the WTC > attack. If you have any > excess VAX 7800 let me know and I'll connect you > with the right resources. > > Thanks > > Bob Comarow __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 14 23:14:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <404.658T300T3144021optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it >works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has >talked about in the past, is it? It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz (same as TV modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 15 02:57:25 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:35 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914220516.O812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA2EA43.444D2674@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BA309E5.B8A25199@internet1.net> Please follow the Star Trek references :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Well, Okay, which one of you is the Queen? :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Brian Hechinger wrote: > > > in most cases i speak for dave and myself. we're a collective. :) From millerbj at umich.edu Sat Sep 15 04:08:05 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> <017c01c13d88$6e4d70a0$cb711fd1@default> Message-ID: <000901c13dc5$ee5a6e00$2ed0d58d@fluffy> You should have been here last month... during the month of August, everything was 50% off, and they were selling lots of systems/parts/monitors for a dollar each... The stuff they threw away was really kind of cool. Sorry you missed it. Blair From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Sat Sep 15 04:45:33 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: L@@K and L@UGH! Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066127@exc-reo1> > Chuck McManis wrote: >Well if its a KA694 then that wouldn't be a horrible price. I don't have my >KA670 out of the machine so that I could check against that one. It >definitely doesn't look like the KA692. The REX520 screams Rigel to me: KA670. I don't have one handy to visually inspect though. Look at the AlphaServer 2100 memory auction too: same price! Antonio From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 15 06:37:07 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Q. Who remembers the "see" editor for the ibm pc? In-Reply-To: <3BA2E81B.3AB5BF51@internet1.net> Message-ID: I checked my "stash" and see.com that I have is also a scroll viewer. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:33 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: Q. Who remembers the "see" editor for the ibm pc? -> -> -> I have a "see.com" that I picked up somewhere. It isn't an editor, -> However. Just a viewer as far as I can tell. It's nice because you can -> scroll up, not just down like when you type, "type file.txt | more". -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> -> Carlos Murillo wrote: -> > -> > I just realized that every now and then I still use the first -> > editor that I learned for the ibm pc, whenever I'm too -> > lazy or don't need the power of vi (and the file that I want to -> > edit is less than 64K in size). It is called see.exe -> > and it is 32768 bytes long. The version string reads -> > -> > SEE: Screen Editor V2.0: (c) 1982,83,84 Michael Ouye -> > -> > The file date is 3-16-84. -> > -> > For its size, it is actually pretty useful and you -> > can even record and replay macros. It is one of -> > the first programs that I copy to any pc-compatible -> > even if it (the pc) has been winblowsized. Is anybody acquainted -> > with this program? -> > -> > carlos. -> > -> > -------------------------------------------------------------- -> > Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org -> From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 15 06:52:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: SYM-1 References: Message-ID: <00a201c13ddc$e9080180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'll be happy to send you the necessary 2114 memory chips if that will help anything. I have quite a few and little likelihood they'll be needed for anything. Likewise, if you need 4116 types, I have several dozen extras, maybe even 100, that I've preserved. I'm wondering why, of course. As far as odditites go, I have a number (2 rails or so) of the 2-chip hybrids that Apple had made up for the Apple III. Those are 32K bits, though I really don't know whether they're 16Kx2 or 32Kx1. They have the Apple logo on each of the leadless carriers mounted on the carrier, and use an 18-pin footprint, IIRC. regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Maslin" To: Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 11:52 PM Subject: SYM-1 > > I acquired a Synertek SYM-1 recently. It is in original box (albeit, a > little taped up) and appears to be almost complete including manuals. > The only obvious shortage is that it is shy six SY2114 memory chips. > > Anyone interested in it, contact me off list and we'll see what can be > worked out. > - don > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 15 06:59:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor References: <404.658T300T3144021optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <00ac01c13ddd$df7c0c00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I had one of these on my desk in '87 or so. They were shipped with an adapter to the HD DE15 connector now common on VGA displays, but were actually sold into the mature EGA market. They're certainly capable of 640x480, which is the resolution at which I used the thing, and they did that rather well. I've heard they're capable of 1Kx768 in interlaced mode, like the 3D. IIRC, 800x600 didn't work, but I don't remember why. It could have been the adapter I used. Back then you couldn't get much help with sync polarity. I do recall that touching either of the screws at the upper right and left side while allowing my then-massive paunch to contact the front of the screen, even through a shirt and necktie, would yield a significant shock, by the way, so beware! Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Mike Ford" Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:00 AM Subject: Re: Nec Multisync II monitor > Mike Ford skrev: > > >I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it > >works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has > >talked about in the past, is it? > > It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz (same as TV > modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. > Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > From pechter at bg-tc-ppp488.monmouth.com Sat Sep 15 07:56:28 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp488.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: VAXEN In-Reply-To: <200109142346.f8ENkx018205@shell1.aracnet.com> from "Zane H. Healy" at "Sep 14, 2001 04:46:59 pm" Message-ID: <200109151256.f8FCuSU31084@bg-tc-ppp488.monmouth.com> > > > > > > Looks as though there is a growing demand for them. > > > > - don > > Wasn't the VAX 7000 model 800 the last and most powerful model? If it > wasn't it was close. Something tells me that we're going to see a lot of > people located around the WTC looking for a lot of VAXen, and I shudder to > think about some of the ancient hardware the Pentagon might be looking for. > > Zane Well in Desert Storm they went absolutely crazy looking for Interdata 8/32's... All of Concurrent's 8/32 based board testers got quickly upgraded to 3220's or better as they refurbed a ton of the old beasts. I'd say what for but then I'd have to kill you. 8-) Amazing, since the 3200's were pretty much compatible with the 8/32 line. More amazing is that a couple of years later they were still in use by the gov't. They were looking at Concurrent Micro5's as an upgrade. Vax 7000 model 800 at least still are commercially useable and supported and a reasable machine. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Sep 15 09:14:22 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225749@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > > For a monitor, I followed Lancaster's instructions on how to take > > an old B&W TV set and pull the unneeded circuitry (except for the > > tubes; they stayed in, heaters wired in series). The mods all helped > > In the UK, most series-string valve TV sets had a hot chassis (directly > connected to one side of the mains). Actually, a number of transistorised > sets did as well. [..snip..] > Did US TVs have proper isolating mains transformers, even though they had > series-string heaters? No; I bought an isolation transformer, a stand-alone unit. > > And I think I even got to like the smell of solder.. especially > > the Ersin Multicore stuff made in the U.K... why, there's some > > Nice, isn't it :-) Yup! > > yes, I've used all kinds of techniques to repair such damage. > > As have I. It gets more fun when it's an SMD-built board, with tracks > very close together :-) Haven't ever had to *fix* a multilayer board, but did hack on one (early Mac). > > > > But you can't damage software... which is one of the things that > > Hmmm... If you don't have backups you can :-) Oh, I got the backup religion long, long ago... > Actually, one thing I tend to worry about it misconfiguring a piece of > software and not being able to go back to the original configuration that > worked at least partially. Doing the same with hardware never bothers me. On the tricky stuff, I try to save the configurations, either in files, or on paper. > I gurss it comes down to experience. I know enough about hardware to see > what I've done and put it right. The same is not true of software... I've also done some embedded systems hardware development. But it tended to be taking the evaluation design from the databooks and massaging it into a working design, so I can't take too much credit. > > resisters, capacitors, transistors, and 7400-series chips. It > > How good will that emulation be? If I accidentally connect a pin on the > TTL chip to the -15V rail, what happens? Does the chip fail in the same > way that a real one does? Are you going to be able to emulate every > possible circuit (hint : No CAD system's simulator has ever maanged to > 'pass' my tests (namely a dozen or so nasty circuits). Would you settle for a graphic rendering of the magic smoke escaping? ;-) > > could also have an emulated soldering iron & solder. Ever wish > > I suppose you're going to add a little heater element and some flux so as > to give the right smells (a bit like those smoke generators the model > railway crowd use). And a device that burns my fingers from time to time. That might have to wait for the development of tactile interfaces, but rest assured, that's well underway... > I suppose next you'll be suggesting the floor of the emulated machine > room does not magically transport small components dropped on it into > another room.... So, your shop has funky space-time problems, too? ;-) -dq From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Sep 15 09:30:15 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing References: Message-ID: <3BA365F7.6FE07FB1@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > But in time, the last examples of the hardware will cease to run, and > > parts will > > be long gone. As some (distant point) the torch must pass to emulation, > > I am not convinced. It depends on what 'parts' you mean, but if you work > at the level of individual components, then there are probably ways to > make alternatives and will be for many years to come. Consider the AM29xx > bit-slice chips, now moderately hard to find. It's not beyond a seriously > dedicated entusiast to program an FPGA to replace one of those and make a > kludgeboard so it will plug into the original socket. Unoriginal? Sure. > Would I rather use a real AMD chip? Sure, again. But if that's the only > way to keep the last PERQ running, I would have a go. In the case you mention, your replacing a TTL device with an FPGA that currently uses TTL level I/O. But most of my classic hardware is pre-TTL and no such logic level compatible programmable logic exists. So when a CTL chips fails, I must resort to canabilisim. Eventually it will no longer be practical to keep this ancient (HP) hardware running. I only hope that this can be delayed 50 years or so. From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Sep 15 09:33:46 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3BA366CA.7DC8AC7F@tiac.net> I'd posted some interest in the HP3000, but never heard anything other than it was already taken. Brian Hechinger wrote: > On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: > > I don't know what happened! I thought the person who had it > > might have had contact with Brian directly? And then bad > > things had happened Tuesday. I have bcc-ed her once again. > > Kathleen, did anyone pick up those VAXen and HP 3000? > > i'm sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i'll be picking up the VAXen, but i have no > need for the HP. i was wondering if it was figured out who wanted it. > > -brian From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Sat Sep 15 10:07:39 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: SYM-1 References: Message-ID: <3BA36EBB.5F1DF36F@bedrocksys.com> I'd probably be interested. I have a KIM-1 and an AIM-65, but no SYM-1 as of yet. What would you want for it? Thanks, John Don Maslin wrote: > > I acquired a Synertek SYM-1 recently. It is in original box (albeit, a > little taped up) and appears to be almost complete including manuals. > The only obvious shortage is that it is shy six SY2114 memory chips. > > Anyone interested in it, contact me off list and we'll see what can be > worked out. > - don From vaxman at qwest.net Sat Sep 15 10:03:39 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: VAX 7800 CPU and Memory Modules In-Reply-To: <3BA25CB2.7E92@verizon.net> Message-ID: I for one would like to see a guarantee they won't turn around and charge a huge profit on top of what you get for the module. A small fee ($20?) for testing, but no more. I've seen the prices DEC resellers get and it makes EBay look like a smokin' deal. In fact, Mitch from Keyways shops on EBay... clint On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Info from LSI wrote: > Hi Gang, > > With our contacts to 1200 companies, in 100 countries, > on 6 continents, my company is going to try to source these > parts. It's doubtful they would buy directly from private > individuals in single quantities, but we will. If any of > you have CPU and Memory modules for VAX 7800's that you > would like to sell, email back the module numbers and your > asking prices immediately. > > Sincerely, > > Bennett > > From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Sep 15 11:03:20 2001 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (John R. Keys Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Next Megapixel display References: <3BA0A505.22961.245807F1@localhost> Message-ID: <025901c13dff$f1702d20$cb711fd1@default> I have the operating instructions for the model N4006 and starting left to right as you face the screen here are the button descriptions: 1. V-STAT (vertical static convergence) control; 2. H-STAT (horizontal static convergence) control; 3. V-CENT (vertical centering) control; 4. Brightness control; 5. Contrast control; 6. Power switch and indicator. Hope this helps. John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Walker" To: Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 12:22 PM Subject: Next Megapixel display > I'm gradually getting my collection esconced in my new home in the boonies > of central Manitoba. > > In trying to set up my beloved Next Color slab I'm dismayed that the 17" > Megapixel isn't functioning. Before, the monitor was a bit flakey and would go > to sleep on me occasionally. I've tried to find specs but the only useful one > I've found is in the Peanuts FAQ archive. Unfortunately it gives no > descriptions of the external controls. > On the lower left side of the display is a button with a screen and vertical > line symbol which doesn't appear to be working. What is it's function ? I > had imagined it was a screen blanker. Also since I get static discharge on > the screen when I depress the on-off in either position what is the ON > position of the switch. In to the cabinet or protruding from the face. I've > forgotten. I've been avoiding opening up since there's so many other pressing > things to be done and you can't see thru the air-vents to see any life. > > Thanks for any help. > > Lawrence > > appear to be working. > > > Reply to: > lgwalker@mts.net > From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Sep 15 10:07:47 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Q. Who remembers the "see" editor for the ibm pc? In-Reply-To: References: <3BA2E81B.3AB5BF51@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010915110747.0070126c@obregon.multi.net.co> The one I have really is an editor, and it is an .exe file, not .com . It has menus a` la pine on the top line, as in Again Buffer Copy Delete Find -find Get Insert Jump --space-- ------ 0 / 58017 characters (used/free) The spacebar gets you to other commands List Macro Put Quit Replace Set Tag View Wrap Xchange --space-- Carlos. At 06:37 AM 9/15/01 -0500, Russ wrote: >I checked my "stash" and see.com that I have is also a scroll viewer. > >-> -----Original Message----- >-> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez >-> Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 12:33 AM >-> >-> I have a "see.com" that I picked up somewhere. It isn't an editor, >-> However. Just a viewer as far as I can tell. It's nice because you can >-> scroll up, not just down like when you type, "type file.txt | more". >-> >-> Chad Fernandez -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Sep 15 11:33:16 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Next Megapixel display In-Reply-To: <025901c13dff$f1702d20$cb711fd1@default> References: <3BA0A505.22961.245807F1@localhost> <025901c13dff$f1702d20$cb711fd1@default> Message-ID: >I have the operating instructions for the model N4006 and starting left >to right as you face the screen here are the button descriptions: 1. >V-STAT (vertical static convergence) control; 2. H-STAT (horizontal >static convergence) control; 3. V-CENT (vertical centering) control; 4. >Brightness control; 5. Contrast control; 6. Power switch and indicator. >Hope this helps. John I think Lawrence is referring to the N4001, which is the 17" Color Megapixel. On it, there are only 4 controls on the front of the monitor. > > On the lower left side of the display is a button with a screen and >vertical >> line symbol which doesn't appear to be working. What is it's function >? I >> had imagined it was a screen blanker. Also since I get static >discharge on > > the screen when I depress the on-off in either position what is the ON >> position of the switch. In to the cabinet or protruding from the face. >I've >> forgotten. I've been avoiding opening up since there's so many other >pressing >> things to be done and you can't see thru the air-vents to see any >life. I believe that the left-most button that you describe first is a degaussing button. On my N4001 that is what it appears to do when the button is depressed. Like most push button switches, the power button is recessed slightly when it is in the 'on' position. When in 'off' is is protruding slightly from the front of the monitor. Obviously, the other two rotary wheels are for brightness and contrast, even though this is also controled from the keyboard. All of this is verified on my N4001 one as I type this. Somehow I missed the original post, which is why I didn't respond before. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 15 12:12:20 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Q. Who remembers the "see" editor for the ibm pc? In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010914224818.01e13730@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > edit is less than 64K in size). It is called see.exe > and it is 32768 bytes long. The version string reads > SEE: Screen Editor V2.0: (c) 1982,83,84 Michael Ouye > The file date is 3-16-84. There have also been numerous other programs named SEE.EXE. But the one that you are talking about was distributed/bundled with the DeSmet C compiler (which is now shareware as "Personal C Compiler" - I don't know off-hand whether SEE is included in the shareware distribution). I have version 2.4? 1/13/86, 43,520 bytes -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 15 13:42:15 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: SPDT Dip Switches (was: Solomon Splitting the list... In-Reply-To: <00e101c13d79$b3c73a80$d7ef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010915144215.00e5d908@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that ajp166 may have mentioned these words: >>> > I've never seen SPDT dipswitches in computers. > > >I have some. Also I have some S100 boards that used them for address >selection. > >Allison And that's what I want them for. With Tony's advice, I figured out a way to design my board with (2) separate CE/ signals (Is that how you denote Chip Enable, Active Low in ASCII?) but I needed a variable way to address from 1 to 4 memory locations to each CE/ externally -- that's why I don't want to monkey with a chip-based solution -- switches are just easier that way when tinkering. My idea: A 2-4 decoder/demux. tied to A0 & A1, with the outputs going to one side of a SPDT DIP switch, the other side of the switch pulled to +5, then all four of the switch outputs going into a 4-input AND gate. That way, you could switch any of the four addresses on or off, so that you'd have access to more than one memory location for CE/ to implement UARTS & stuff that require more than one address to function. (It can be done easily without the switches -- I could use a jumper block without heartburn, but the switches would look neater, and wouldn't have the chance for floating inputs/outputs...) Dunno if it make sense to y'all, but it looks good (so far) in my head, anyway... ;-) Anyway, that's my plans -- now back to AutoCad to start mapping the stuff in. Hopefully I'll have an updated board uploaded to the website by next weekend... :-) Laterz, "Merch" P.S. Thanks everyone for the helpful tips on where I might locate these -- I'll start hitting the web & phone next Monday to attempt to fine a supplier. (I have a clutch to fix on an '84 Pontiac Fiero that I fear will take a large portion of my weekend... :-( -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From jss at subatomix.com Sat Sep 15 13:41:49 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: VAX 7800 CPU and Memory Modules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010915134046.I67430-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > I've seen the prices DEC resellers get and it makes EBay look like a > smokin' deal. In fact, Mitch from Keyways shops on EBay... There are quite a few resellers that shop on eBay. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 14:07:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225749@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 15, 1 10:14:22 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2142 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010915/91098036/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 14:09:09 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3BA365F7.6FE07FB1@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 15, 1 10:30:15 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 506 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010915/19afd125/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 13:53:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010914222533.01e1b168@obregon.multi.net.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Sep 14, 1 10:25:33 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 5286 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010915/63f60d5c/attachment.ksh From mythtech at Mac.com Sat Sep 15 14:39:08 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: IBM Keys was: IBM PowerStation 530 Message-ID: <200109151939.f8FJd80488678@logs-wq.proxy.aol.com> >I'm missing a key for one of my AS400's Does anyone know about >getting keys made or picking the lock? I don't know what key is on the AS400, if it is a round key, just call a locksmith, if it is a regular straight key, it may be like the ones on the PS/2's I have, which are single tumblers, and can be picked with a paperclip in about 10 seconds (take a small paper clip, straighten it, and then bend into a U... insert points first into the lock, and jiggle while turning it, you should be able to hit the right spot in a few soconds). The more tumblers, the harder it is to pick, but generally, anything 3 and under can be done with a paper clip, over that, you might want to call a locksmith or get a lock pick kit. -chris From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 14:18:44 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: SPDT Dip Switches (was: Solomon Splitting the list... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010915144215.00e5d908@mail.30below.com> from "Roger Merchberger" at Sep 15, 1 02:42:15 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1294 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010915/b5a3f641/attachment.ksh From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 15 14:46:04 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Re: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? (Chad Fernandez) References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <15266.38334.999159.606284@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BA2AC72.1010207@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914220516.O812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA2EA43.444D2674@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15267.45052.778309.416904@phaduka.neurotica.com> You, sir, are a freak. ;) -Dave On September 15, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Well, Okay, which one of you is the Queen? :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > > Brian Hechinger wrote: > > > in most cases i speak for dave and myself. we're a collective. :) -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 15 15:20:54 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: L@@K and L@UGH! In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Sep 15, 2001 02:45:33 AM Message-ID: <200109152020.f8FKKs304590@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Well if its a KA694 then that wouldn't be a horrible price. I don't > have my > >KA670 out of the machine so that I could check against that one. It > > >definitely doesn't look like the KA692. > > The REX520 screams Rigel to me: KA670. > I don't have one handy to visually > inspect though. > > Look at the AlphaServer 2100 memory auction too: same price! The specs (28ns) are definitely KA670, plus it looks like the KA670 I sold just this past week. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 15 15:40:44 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing In-Reply-To: from "ajp166" at Sep 14, 2001 06:52:32 PM Message-ID: <200109152040.f8FKeil04641@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I like to and MyZ80 allows it to be more portable than my S100 crate or > the Kaypro. > Then again, my AmproLB system with 45mb disk is far smaller than most > PCs. My AmproLB doesn't have the SCSI daughterboard so I prefer an emulator. I used to have the LB stuck in a full-size tower with my Wintel system along with a couple of 5.25" floppies. The primary serial port went back to one of the Wintel system's serial ports and the light and reset button went on another 5.25" cover plate. Unfortunately an emulator was more convenient. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 15 15:44:02 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: from "Peter C. Wallace" at Sep 14, 2001 02:51:44 PM Message-ID: <200109152044.f8FKi2X04649@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > >> >The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > > > >> >keyboard. > > > >> > > > >> What makes the LK461 special? > > > > > > > >The LK461 (and related keyboards, like the LK46W) have the same layout as the > > > >LK401, including all the keys. I use a couple on my Alphas and VT525. > > > > > > What about electrical or connector differences? > > > > > > I'm curious as a bunch came into a surplus place, and one of the other > > > junkies grabbed them all, but had no interest in the LK401. > > > > The LK461 has a PS/2 connector. The LK401 has a phone-jack connector. The > > LK401 can only be used with a VT2x0/VT3x0/VT4x0 terminal. > > -- > > And various VAXstations/DECstations/Alphas... Oops, yes, those too. It's been so long since I've used the built-in graphics on any of my VAXstations I'd forgotten about that. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 15 16:19:19 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: VAX 7800 CPU and Memory Modules References: <20010915134046.I67430-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BA3C5D7.91CDA928@internet1.net> That must be why I repeatedly get out bid by the same guys over and over again. Sometimes I don' even bother because I know they'll outbid me. While bidding on a DSSI drive, I actually won the auction, then the seller "elobby" went awol.... he's no longer registered, and I had already paid him. It's odd, he has nothing but glowing feedback. It's not due to the WTC either, it was before that. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Clint Wolff (VAX collector) wrote: > > > I've seen the prices DEC resellers get and it makes EBay look like a > > smokin' deal. In fact, Mitch from Keyways shops on EBay... > > There are quite a few resellers that shop on eBay. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 15 17:13:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: VAX 7800 CPU and Memory Modules In-Reply-To: from "Chad Fernandez" at Sep 15, 2001 05:19:19 PM Message-ID: <200109152213.f8FMD9j04879@narnia.int.dittman.net> > That must be why I repeatedly get out bid by the same guys over and over > again. Sometimes I don' even bother because I know they'll outbid me. Yes, I know of at least three bidders that are businesses. I also know that they can always outbid me, and at least two of them use some kind of automated sniping tool. > While bidding on a DSSI drive, I actually won the auction, then the > seller "elobby" went awol.... he's no longer registered, and I had > already paid him. It's odd, he has nothing but glowing feedback. It's > not due to the WTC either, it was before that. I bought a DSSI drive from elobby, and it did arrive. I see their last feedback entry was on Sep. 7, and you are right, elobby is now unregistered. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 15 17:58:15 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing Message-ID: <01e101c13e3b$2c422710$d7ef9a8d@ajp166> From: Eric Dittman > >My AmproLB doesn't have the SCSI daughterboard so I prefer an emulator. Mine is the later LB+ that has the SCSI chip {5380} on board. My box is one I got at DEC that is exactly the same size as a BA11-VA with same openings but from a proto so it's light grey {DEC 68} and aluminum and compact. It has: Fujitsu 45mb 3.5" SCSI Two 3.5" floppies (720/781kb) I use it with VT240 or 330. Allison From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Sep 15 18:30:53 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: SPDT Dip Switches (was: Solomon Splitting the list... In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "SPDT Dip Switches (was: Solomon Splitting the list..." (Sep 15, 14:42) References: <3.0.1.32.20010915144215.00e5d908@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10109160030.ZM7783@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 15, 14:42, Roger Merchberger wrote: > My idea: A 2-4 decoder/demux. tied to A0 & A1, with the outputs going to > one side of a SPDT DIP switch, the other side of the switch pulled to +5, > then all four of the switch outputs going into a 4-input AND gate. That > way, you could switch any of the four addresses on or off, so that you'd > have access to more than one memory location for CE/ to implement UARTS & > stuff that require more than one address to function. (It can be done > easily without the switches -- I could use a jumper block without > heartburn, but the switches would look neater, and wouldn't have the chance > for floating inputs/outputs...) In other words, this: _____ ____ +5V - ---| \ _____ | - ---| & \_____ | |__ _ o - ---| / A0 ------| 2 |__ _ ----o----------------|____/ | to |__ _ o A1 ------| 4 |_________| |_____| Wouldn't this be easier and do the same thing? ____ +5V | \ 4 x 1k0 pullup / _____ _____ \ - ---| \ | |__ _ / - ---| & \_____ A0 ------| 2 |__ _ | - ---| / | to |__ _ ----o----------------|____/ A1 ------| 4 |_________o |_____| I've just seen Tony's reply, and his suggestion using a MUX would have been my next suggestion too. It's also easier to extend to more address bits (fewer switches required). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 15 17:51:30 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: IBM Keys was: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <200109151939.f8FJd80488678@logs-wq.proxy.aol.com> from "Chris" at Sep 15, 1 03:39:08 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1892 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010915/bfeca2ea/attachment.ksh From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Sep 15 21:04:17 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon C. Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Zap-a-pal Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010915190303.0281cb40@pop.azstarnet.com> I have a zap-a-pal PAL programmer card, but just the bare card, no programming pods or docs, not sure if I found software or not. Does anyone know anything about this? If someone knows the pod pinouts I assume I could rig one up myself. Gordon Zaft zaft@azstarnet.com From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 15 21:19:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Wierd Apple memory IC's References: Message-ID: <002501c13e56$04e04240$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I have some oddball two-chip modules made for Apple which are essentially 2 4116's (?) on a single substrate, on an 18-pin footprint, bearing the Apple logo. These were, IIRC, made for the Apple-III. Does anybody have a need for these? I've had them in my possession just about long enough. Dick From kd7bcy at teleport.com Sat Sep 15 22:47:13 2001 From: kd7bcy at teleport.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Modified Modular Jack. It's DEC connector, a bit like a telephone plug >with the locking clip offset from the middle... Can someone get me a pinout of that? I suppose it shouldn't be too hard to change out for a normal jack. >Interesting. What pin does it appear on? +12v jumpered directly from the power input to pins 11 and 12. There are also several jumpers to the VGA port from a 74F08. When I cut the jumper the board went dead, I think some of the jumpers I haven't been able to trace yet(small board traces that go under the connector on the top) go from 11 and 12 to the power pins for the F08. I'm going to resolder it and then I'll have to go to the store to get something to make a custom VGA cable out of. I'm posting a picture of the board to my web site. LOL... I haven't updated it in so long I can't remember my password! It's right on my main page when you go to the web site, if I can remember how to make HTML work right... There it is. Oops! And I fixed the old sigs left behind in my email program. I'd hate to send those out by accident... My old Geocities site(hasn't been used in a LONG time) now forwards to a Smurf site of all things! At least mine had something interesting on it... Oh well. -- /------------------------------------\ | http://jrollins.tripod.com/ | | KD7BCY kd7bcy@teleport.com | \------------------------------------/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 15 22:31:58 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: IBM Keys was: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <008901c13d8c$6f0f8b50$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> References: Message-ID: >I'm missing a key for one of my AS400's Does anyone know about >getting keys made or picking the lock? I can't say for the AS400, but the Power series from IBM used some special key that you absolutely can't pick or duplicate, with replacement cost something like $65 each. Sad thing is that with old systems the bottom line is that you have to screw up the case, break parts etc. to get to the back side of the switch and remove/bypass it. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 15 22:14:12 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: <404.658T300T3144021optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: >>I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it >>works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has >>talked about in the past, is it? > >It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz (same as TV >modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. >Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. Thats what one of my other friends said, NEC II good, 3D better. I haven't even tested this one for working yet, and it is ROUGH from poor handling (ie gash in the case side). Still if it works I'll keep it for bench use, or wait til I find a dead one in a nicer case. From jhfine at idirect.com Sun Sep 16 08:26:14 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt References: <200109140240.f8E2eWI01144@narnia.int.dittman.net> from "ajp166" at Sep 13, 2001 09:57:46 PM Message-ID: <3BA4A876.889FF425@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>The PIII will emulate the keyboard layout of a VT220 if you use an LK461 > >>keyboard. > >What makes the LK461 special? > It has all the keys a keyboard should, not just the ones that the loser > that designed the PC keyboard thinks it should. I just wish I could stick > a LK461 on my Mac, I hate not having all the keys on it since I use it as a > front end to my VMS systems. Jerome Fine replies: I realize that there are many individuals who will not accept a partial solution to any problem. So if you are one of those who insist on a 100% perfect emulation of the LK201/LK401, do not bother to read further. HOWEVER, if you use the E11 emulator by John Wilson and you are doing so on a PC (what other possibility is there?), then so long as you do not insist that every function key on the LK201 is available and in the correct place, there is a VERY viable solution that I am using with a normal 104 key PC keyboard. Most of the function keys are available, but not quite in their normal position. I found that the following map seems very useful, but anyone can modify it to their own choices. PC FUNCTION KEYS LK201 F1 maps to F6 F2 maps to F7 F3 maps to F8 F4 maps to F9 F5 maps to F10 F6 maps to F11 F7 maps to F12 F8 maps to F13 F9 maps to F17 F10 maps to F18 F11 maps to F19 F12 maps to F20 Insert maps to Find Home maps to Insert Here Page Up maps to Remove Delete maps to Select End maps to Prev Screen Page Down maps to Next Screen Note that since all of the above mapping is specified in a text file, each user can make any modifications that suit their unique preferences. PLUS, I found one modification that really helps a great deal. E11 allows the CAPS LOCK/LCTRL to be swapped so that their location more closely resembles the VT100/VT220/VT320 usage. I went one step further and abandoned the easy use of the CAPS LOCK function (it is still easily available, just not as obvious) and accepted the CAPS LOCK to be the LCTRL. IN ADDITION, the LCTRL has become a SUPER NO SCROLL key that had that same position on the VT100 which I always found extremely inconvenient on the LK201 keyboard - since the NO SCROLL key was at the top and out of easy reach. Now, the LCTRL key acts as the NO SCROLL key on the VT100 does with the following modifications: (a) Depressing the key sends the "CTRL/S" character. (b) Releasing the key sends the "CTRL/Q" character EXCEPT when the LSHIFT key is also pressed. If anyone wishes the plain ASCII text file to make their own changes, please ask. If you wish to discuss why the EXCEPT is in (b) and why the action is now a toggle based on one DOWN/UP motion rather than two DOWN/UP motions as with the actual VT100, the answer is very simple. The PC display is so fast that the (a)/(b) specified provides about twice the response time (actually half if you look at it the other way) an allows MUCH fines control of the number of lines that a user allows between successive DOWN/UP motions of the key. When I try to duplicate the VT100 keyboard, about the fewest lines that I can manage is around 10 additional lines. With the above (a)/(b) set-up, I can usually manage to display only around 5 additional lines on the monitor of the PC for each DOWN/UP motion of the LCTRL key. Actually, in practice, the initial freeze of the display is a DOWN motion which is held as long as the display is to be frozen. Then, when I wish to display as few additional lines as possible, a very quick UP/DOWN motion is used. If two UP/DOWN motions (or DOWN/UP which ever way you look at the emulation) are required, the toggle aspect required to send the "CTRL/Q" followed by the "CTRL/S" as quickly as possible takes just about twice as long and that is not acceptable to me when I use E11 on the PC. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 16 09:29:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor References: Message-ID: <002b01c13ebb$fbe24100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> If you get a methyl-methacrylate cement for polycarbonates, etc, and use it to patch the gash, then polish it with steel wool (since the plastic's too soft for sanding) you might be able to make the thing look tolerable. I frequently use monitors like this to give away along with donated computers, and don't like them to look TOO terrible, hence I've found a few ways to get past some of the common cosmetic problems. They are made of remarkably soft plastic that's easy to damage. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 9:14 PM Subject: Re: Nec Multisync II monitor > >>I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it > >>works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has > >>talked about in the past, is it? > > > >It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz (same as TV > >modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. > >Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. > > Thats what one of my other friends said, NEC II good, 3D better. I haven't > even tested this one for working yet, and it is ROUGH from poor handling > (ie gash in the case side). Still if it works I'll keep it for bench use, > or wait til I find a dead one in a nicer case. > > > From technos at nerdland.org Sun Sep 16 09:33:26 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor Message-ID: <01C13E9B.055C1BA0.technos@nerdland.org> On Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:14 PM, Mike Ford [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > >>I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, > >>hope it > >>works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the > >>list has > >>talked about in the past, is it? > > > >It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz (same > >as TV > >modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. > >Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. > > Thats what one of my other friends said, NEC II good, 3D better. I > haven't > even tested this one for working yet, and it is ROUGH from poor > handling > (ie gash in the case side). Still if it works I'll keep it for bench > use, > or wait til I find a dead one in a nicer case. > I'm sorry to say I sent two dozen 3D to a scrap company six months ago.. Jim From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Sep 16 09:57:44 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: IBM Keys was: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >I'm missing a key for one of my AS400's Does anyone know about > >getting keys made or picking the lock? > > I can't say for the AS400, but the Power series from IBM used some special > key that you absolutely can't pick or duplicate, with replacement cost > something like $65 each. Sad thing is that with old systems the bottom line > is that you have to screw up the case, break parts etc. to get to the back > side of the switch and remove/bypass it. Exactly, all the key equipped RS6k's I have seen have 3 position Medeco locks as described above. The AS/400's I have seen have had four position no-brand name visible locks with double edged keys marked "Do not duplicate". I've noticed a fair number of the RS6k's on Ebay sold without the keys with the switch stuck permanently in "Normal" mode, or machines sold with the entire lock missing. -- From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 16 11:30:19 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: DEC SBB boxes, what drive? Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010916092657.0251b080@209.185.79.193> Hello Everyone, I've got some DEC SBB (Storage Works disk cartridges) boxes that the previous owner "liberated" the SCSI drives from. I thought I might put some drives that I have in them however they are clearly set up so that one "backplane" was used for each particular drive. So to use these I'd need to replace their innards with 4.3GB drives. I would like to know which 4.3 gb SE SCSI drive DEC/Compaq/HP :-) used in these so that when I find one or two I can replace them. Conversely, if someone needs/wants an empty SBB box let me know. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 12:10:55 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: DEC SBB boxes, what drive? In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010916092657.0251b080@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: >I would like to know which 4.3 gb SE SCSI drive DEC/Compaq/HP :-) used in >these so that when I find one or two I can replace them. Conversely, if >someone needs/wants an empty SBB box let me know. The problem is, which drive, depends on which ribbon is in the SBB. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Sep 16 12:51:59 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Next Megapixel display In-Reply-To: References: <025901c13dff$f1702d20$cb711fd1@default> Message-ID: <3BA4A06F.16304.33E6B68C@localhost> Thanks, guys. I left it in the depressed position for about 3 hrs. and and Voila ! I looked over and was gratified to see the Next logo on the screen. There was some clouding in the center of the screen which gradually cleared up. I guess something (an aged cap ?) is starting to go or else a weak solder point that reconnects under heat. Boy that display sure makes winblows (not to mention Mac or Amiga for that matter) look like crap. lawrence > >I have the operating instructions for the model N4006 and starting left > >to right as you face the screen here are the button descriptions: 1. > >V-STAT (vertical static convergence) control; 2. H-STAT (horizontal > >static convergence) control; 3. V-CENT (vertical centering) control; 4. > >Brightness control; 5. Contrast control; 6. Power switch and indicator. > >Hope this helps. John > > I think Lawrence is referring to the N4001, which is the 17" > Color Megapixel. On it, there are only 4 controls on the front of > the monitor. > > > > On the lower left side of the display is a button with a screen and > >vertical > >> line symbol which doesn't appear to be working. What is it's function > >? I > >> had imagined it was a screen blanker. Also since I get static > >discharge on > > > the screen when I depress the on-off in either position what is the ON > >> position of the switch. In to the cabinet or protruding from the face. > >I've > >> forgotten. I've been avoiding opening up since there's so many other > >pressing > >> things to be done and you can't see thru the air-vents to see any > >life. > > I believe that the left-most button that you describe first > is a degaussing button. On my N4001 that is what it appears to do > when the button is depressed. Like most push button switches, the > power button is recessed slightly when it is in the 'on' position. > When in 'off' is is protruding slightly from the front of the > monitor. Obviously, the other two rotary wheels are for brightness > and contrast, even though this is also controled from the keyboard. > All of this is verified on my N4001 one as I type this. > > Somehow I missed the original post, which is why I didn't > respond before. > > Jeff > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From lgwalker at mts.net Sun Sep 16 12:51:59 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: <01C13E9B.055C1BA0.technos@nerdland.org> Message-ID: <3BA4A06F.22803.33E6B6C3@localhost> > On Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:14 PM, Mike Ford > [SMTP:mikeford@socal.rr.com] wrote: > > >>I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, > > >>hope it > > >>works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the > > >>list has > > >>talked about in the past, is it? > > > > > >It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz > (same > > >as TV > > >modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. > > >Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. > > > > Thats what one of my other friends said, NEC II good, 3D better. I > > haven't > > even tested this one for working yet, and it is ROUGH from poor > > handling > > (ie gash in the case side). Still if it works I'll keep it for bench > > use, > > or wait til I find a dead one in a nicer case. > > > > I'm sorry to say I sent two dozen 3D to a scrap company six months > ago.. > > Jim Groannn ! You could have made a mint thru the Amiga newsgroup. lawrence Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 16 13:06:34 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: DEC SBB boxes, what drive? In-Reply-To: References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010916092657.0251b080@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010916110545.020246d0@209.185.79.193> At 10:10 AM 9/16/01 -0700, you wrote: >The problem is, which drive, depends on which ribbon is in the SBB. Sigh, I was afraid of that. The one in at least one of them is 17-03503-01. --Chuck From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Sep 16 14:09:58 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: Next Megapixel display In-Reply-To: <3BA4A06F.16304.33E6B68C@localhost> References: <025901c13dff$f1702d20$cb711fd1@default> <3BA4A06F.16304.33E6B68C@localhost> Message-ID: > Thanks, guys. I left it in the depressed position for about 3 hrs. and and >Voila ! I looked over and was gratified to see the Next logo on the screen. > There was some clouding in the center of the screen which gradually >cleared up. I guess something (an aged cap ?) is starting to go or else >a weak solder point that reconnects under heat. Glad to hear you've gotten it to at least show some signs of life. I hope you get it figured out. > Boy that display sure makes winblows (not to mention Mac or Amiga for >that matter) look like crap. My N4001 was manufactured in September 1991 and sits close enough to my nearly-new NEC Multisync 75 that I can do a direct comparison between the two. Both are 17" monitors, with the NEC set at 1024 x 768 in millions of colors at 85Hz. As much as I like NEC monitors, with only one of my previous VGA/SVGA type monitors being anything else, I must admit that the N4001 still holds it's own, even being 10 years old. It's just as clear and sharp as the NEC, though at 68Hz it's refresh is a little lower though the image is just as stable. It's colors are also bright. One nice thing about the NEC over the NeXT monitor is that the NEC doesn't weigh anywhere near as much! Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Sun Sep 16 14:27:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:36 2005 Subject: DEC SBB boxes, what drive? In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 16, 2001 11:06:34 AM Message-ID: <200109161927.f8GJRe417060@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >The problem is, which drive, depends on which ribbon is in the SBB. > > Sigh, I was afraid of that. The one in at least one of them is 17-03503-01. The later SBBs used SCA drives, which makes things much easier. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ For the Afghanistan weather forecast, see http://www.dittman.net/weather.html From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 16 14:26:35 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: <002b01c13ebb$fbe24100$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >If you get a methyl-methacrylate cement for polycarbonates, etc, and use it to >patch the gash, then polish it with steel wool (since the plastic's too >soft for >sanding) you might be able to make the thing look tolerable. I frequently use >monitors like this to give away along with donated computers, and don't like >them to look TOO terrible, hence I've found a few ways to get past some of the >common cosmetic problems. They are made of remarkably soft plastic that's >easy >to damage. > >Dick I'm more of a duct tape kinda guy, but thats for items I only will be personally using. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 16 14:59:02 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: DEC SBB boxes, what drive? In-Reply-To: <200109161927.f8GJRe417060@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 16, 2001 11:06:34 AM Message-ID: >The later SBBs used SCA drives, which makes things much easier. Wouldn't that be on the wide drives for BA356's though? Or did they use them for Narrow SBB's? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 16 15:03:58 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor References: Message-ID: <000f01c13eea$b8f4b9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I find that things that I use repeatedly, whether in combination with test equipment or with computers, seem to perform more satisfactorily if I take the trouble to fabricate and maintain them, including their packaging, such that I can adjust my mentality to one of "this is a tool" rather than "this is something I reubed up" or "this is the product of many compromises" so that I can focus on what I'm doing without the distraction, cosmetic or otherwise, associated with the realities of those compromises. Maybe it's not like that for you, but I really don't enjoy explaining to someone why a circuit is still just a free-floating wire-wrap board haning on a string tied to a power supply, even if it's only been used twice in the decade since it was made, and even if it works perfectly every time. I'm not a typical "appearance-over-substance" kind of guy, but I do find it helps with my own shop-made fixtures, etc, that they're pacakged so they can be used conveniently, and so they don't require any special handling to protect them. At a minimum, I'd be inclined to apply the duct-tape from the inside of the plastic enclosure. Even minor blemishes have their effect, so minimizing it is certainly worth a LITTLE trouble. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 1:26 PM Subject: Re: Nec Multisync II monitor > >If you get a methyl-methacrylate cement for polycarbonates, etc, and use it to > >patch the gash, then polish it with steel wool (since the plastic's too > >soft for > >sanding) you might be able to make the thing look tolerable. I frequently use > >monitors like this to give away along with donated computers, and don't like > >them to look TOO terrible, hence I've found a few ways to get past some of the > >common cosmetic problems. They are made of remarkably soft plastic that's > >easy > >to damage. > > > >Dick > > I'm more of a duct tape kinda guy, but thats for items I only will be > personally using. > > > From mranalog at home.com Sun Sep 16 15:07:48 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen Message-ID: <3BA50694.96EFE04@home.com> Hi, I'm looking for information about an author (and a series of magazine articles he wrote in the early 70's concerning analog computers) by the name of D. Bollen. The articles might have been published in "a popular English `do it yourself' electronics magazine called something like Practical Electronics". Does anyone have a near complete collection of Everyday Practical Electronics (EPE) Magazine? Maybe the magazine has an author's index. Can anyone think of the name another similar magaazine that fits this description? I've been told that these articles contain the "Full details" of my C180 english analog computer. Regards, --Doug P.S. If you CC me then I don't have to wait until tomorrow for your reply. :) ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From dittman at dittman.net Sun Sep 16 17:04:22 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: DEC SBB boxes, what drive? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 16, 2001 12:59:02 PM Message-ID: <200109162204.f8GM4Mb17261@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >The later SBBs used SCA drives, which makes things much easier. > > Wouldn't that be on the wide drives for BA356's though? Or did they use > them for Narrow SBB's? That would be the wide drives for BA356's. Do they still make the narrow SBBs? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ For the Afghanistan weather forecast, see http://www.dittman.net/weather.html From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 16 18:12:53 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Need IBM PC Server 320 bay filler plates (6) Message-ID: In search of 6 of the vented original 5.25" half height filler plates for my new Server 320 - just mainly for looks. I have all the bays full of hard drives so that's why I need to fill all 6 bays. I understand that Server 325 hot swap trays fit the 320 so maybe the 325 filler plates work as well. Will pay up to $1 each for them (plus mailing of course) and would love it if one person has all of t hem but can get one or two from each person until I get what I need. OR I have some excess SCSI controllers and memory cards (no ram) for microchannel 286 and 386 level machines I can trade if possible, as well as various ESDI hard drives from PS/2 55SX and 70 machines.Drop me a note direct if you have these plates to spare. I'm in the middle of the US (KY) so postage isn't much from any part of the US or Canada. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010916/097e2119/attachment.html From lipo.ml at gmx.at Sun Sep 16 18:20:03 2001 From: lipo.ml at gmx.at (Roland E. Lipovits) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: scanned DEC manuals Message-ID: <9o3c33$kog$1@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> Hi, recently somebody (Chuck?) posted an URL for scanned DEC manuals . Today I've seen that a lot of manuals are no more available. Does anybody know something about this or about other sites where the manuals are still available? Regards, Lipo -- Roland E. Lipovits Vienna, Austria From donm at cts.com Sun Sep 16 18:30:56 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Sep 2001, Mike Ford wrote: > >>I have a pretty rough looking Nec Multisync II monitor in my car, hope it > >>works, but more so hope its one of the "good" monitors to have the list has > >>talked about in the past, is it? > > > >It certainly is. It's a multisync which will sync down to 15KHz (same as TV > >modes and "RGB" monitors) analogue as well as digital. > >Watch out for its big brother, the 3D. > > Thats what one of my other friends said, NEC II good, 3D better. I haven't > even tested this one for working yet, and it is ROUGH from poor handling > (ie gash in the case side). Still if it works I'll keep it for bench use, > or wait til I find a dead one in a nicer case. > There is always BONDO and a spray can. - don From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 16 19:24:29 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen In-Reply-To: Doug Coward "Practical Electronics and D. Bollen" (Sep 16, 13:07) References: <3BA50694.96EFE04@home.com> Message-ID: <10109170124.ZM9196@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 16, 13:07, Doug Coward wrote: > Does anyone have a near complete collection of > Everyday Practical Electronics (EPE) Magazine? Maybe > the magazine has an author's index. Can anyone think > of the name another similar magaazine that fits this > description? That used to be two separate magazines, "Practical Electronics" which was been around for, well, forever (mid '60s); and "Everyday Electronics" which was more recent (mid '70s, aimed at beginners). EPE is the result of a merger. I bet some of the current staff have been around long enough to know what you're looking for. Try http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Sep 16 20:48:52 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: scanned DEC manuals In-Reply-To: <9o3c33$kog$1@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> Message-ID: There is a message if you go to http://208.190.133.201/ This DFWCUG page is temporaily offline due to a hardware failure. We apologize for the inconvenience and will have the system back up as soon as possible. On 16 Sep 2001, Roland E. Lipovits wrote: > Hi, > > recently somebody (Chuck?) posted an URL for scanned DEC manuals > . Today I've > seen that a lot of manuals are no more available. Does anybody > know something about this or about other sites where the manuals > are still available? > > Regards, > Lipo > > -- From mranalog at home.com Sun Sep 16 20:51:55 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen References: Message-ID: <3BA5573B.EDDF560B@home.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Back then, Everyday Electronics and Practical Electronics were 2 separate > magazines.............. > I have a reasonable set of both from 1972-1973 onwards (just about every > issue after 1973, many from 1972, and a few before that). D.Bollen wrote > articles in both magazines, mostly (as you might expect) on analogue > stuff............ > What I can't find is any articles on analogue computing. There were a few > pots + 1 amplifier type dedicated analogue computers in said magazines Thank you very much Tony. The person that wrote to me said "I would recognize this computer anywhere.", refering to the picture on my web site: http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog/c180.jpg I have made a guess from date codes that it was built with 1971 parts by Physical & Electronic Laboratories Ltd. But the writer says that the computer was designed by D. Bollen "from top to bottom" and was featured in this series of articles. I wonder if the computer might be a magazine project kit. That would be a very interesting development. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From millerbj at umich.edu Sun Sep 16 10:40:00 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> <3BA26CEA.1C97D248@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <000b01c13ec5$d8c2d090$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Emanual - Hrm... I guess if I'd have known from the beginning that the computer would be a '7013 model 530' I'd have been a lot better off. I didn't find the exact manual, but rather one for the '500' series, and though it was published in 1996 (this computer is from 1990 or so) most of the physical stuff still seems to apply. Thanks for the heads up... - Blair > Try www.ibm.com ;-) > Anyway, check the real product number of this machine. Should be > something like "7013 model 530" (?) From millerbj at umich.edu Sun Sep 16 10:45:29 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> <20010914155924.A1867628@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <001901c13ec6$9cb88670$2ed0d58d@fluffy> > Yup, it's RGB, sync on green. You need to get a cable to break that out > to 3 BNCs to hook it up to a decent monitor that does sync on green... Unfortunately, the monitor that may have been hooked up to the machine was nowhere to be found... and this being my first classic computer, I don't have such a thing lying around either. :o( I read something about hooking a serial terminal up to the machine directly... Forgive me for dumb questions, but I'm assuming a serial terminal is one of those boxes that I keep seeing that has hookups for mice, keyboards, SVGA monitors, and the like? Also called a 'Terminal Station' I believe... Will this work? I don't even know if I'm asking the right question here, and I could be horribly, stupidly, wrong. :o) This thing comes from 'way back in the day' for me, before I was even interested in computers, so I don't know a whole heck of a lot right now. More research I guess... Thanks again. Blair From millerbj at umich.edu Sun Sep 16 10:49:01 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <3.0.1.32.20010914185237.014601c0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <002101c13ec7$1ae7d6e0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> > Without looking at your email address, it took me a moment to figure out > where you were... I'm up in Sault Ste. Marie, MI right on the Canadian I've been there once or twice... I believe I also have relatives living there, though that could just be my imagination. > Find yerself a DEChead or two, and they may have a cable to fit... and some > older multisync Mac monitors with the 3-BNC input might work with it as > well... Where would I find something like this... I've no problems driving around Michigan (I think of driving as a way to calm down, and I end up doing it a lot, especially when dealing with foreign territory in the world of computers) to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure where to look. I suppose another trip to property disposition is in order. :o) Thanks for the tips. Blair From millerbj at umich.edu Sun Sep 16 10:50:36 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> <017c01c13d88$6e4d70a0$cb711fd1@default> Message-ID: <003301c13ec7$53d66ca0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> > If you decide not to keep the 530 let me know Will do. You close to Ann Arbor? Blair From millerbj at umich.edu Sun Sep 16 10:53:16 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 References: Message-ID: <003901c13ec7$b2c937b0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> > You should be able to get it to use a serial console. Having the key to > get it into service mode is extra helpful. Fortunately, I've got the key. Unfortunately, I'm a newbie to ALL of this, and I'm not sure what a serial console is... can you elaborate? > Making sure the RAM hasn't been removed is important. The amount would > matter if you were going to try to move to recent versions of AIX. I doubt it has. It was just sitting there, and it doesn't appear that anyone has opened it in a LONG LONG time. As for AIX, I'll figure that out when I can actually use the system. I also read something very brief that this machine would run LinuxPPC or YellowDog (forget which). Any idea if that's true? Thanks for your help. Blair From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 16 21:38:35 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Nec Multisync II monitor In-Reply-To: <000f01c13eea$b8f4b9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >I find that things that I use repeatedly, whether in combination with test >equipment or with computers, seem to perform more satisfactorily if I take the >trouble to fabricate and maintain them, including their packaging, such that I >can adjust my mentality to one of "this is a tool" rather than "this is >something I reubed up" or "this is the product of many compromises" so that I >can focus on what I'm doing without the distraction, cosmetic or otherwise, >associated with the realities of those compromises. Yipes, next you will be telling me you wash your car. I was in a scrap yard the other day with maybe 75 pallets of monitors, many I suspect working still, just a bit small/old/etc.. With that sort of supply, I am not going to spend a lot of time on a old monitor unless it is special and with a future. This old Nec multisync II will NEVER be in nice condition. My view is pretty strictly does this opening cause a hazard, if so apply duct tape or toss. From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Sep 17 01:06:23 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <001901c13ec6$9cb88670$2ed0d58d@fluffy> References: <000b01c13d58$5bf5db20$2ed0d58d@fluffy> <20010914155924.A1867628@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917160200.026e4bf0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 11:45 AM 16/09/2001 -0400, Blair J. Miller wrote: >I read something about hooking a serial terminal up to the machine >directly... Forgive me for dumb questions, but I'm assuming a serial >terminal is one of those boxes that I keep seeing that has hookups for mice, >keyboards, SVGA monitors, and the like? Also called a 'Terminal Station' I >believe... Will this work? I don't even know if I'm asking the right >question here, and I could be horribly, stupidly, wrong. :o) This thing >comes from 'way back in the day' for me, before I was even interested in >computers, so I don't know a whole heck of a lot right now. More research I >guess... Certainly you can run a PowerStation 530 with a simple "dumb" terminal, this is how we used to run ours at work when we got our first AIX systems. We actually used IBM terminals but any plain VT100 type terminal will work. You could always use a terminal emulator running on a PC. I think the Terminal Station might well be the IBM attempt at an Xterminal. Is this a pizza style box? If so, I know you can use it once the PowerStation is booted but I'm not sure about whether it can be used as a console. Us old timers :-) use various things as serial consoles. In my case, an old Panasonic laptop, a DECmate III or my PX-8 have spent time acting as consoles to "larger" computers.... Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Mon Sep 17 01:20:40 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <003901c13ec7$b2c937b0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917161848.026e4bf0@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 11:53 AM 16/09/2001 -0400, Blair J. Miller wrote: >I doubt it has. It was just sitting there, and it doesn't appear that anyone >has opened it in a LONG LONG time. As for AIX, I'll figure that out when I >can actually use the system. I also read something very brief that this >machine would run LinuxPPC or YellowDog (forget which). Any idea if that's >true? A quick look at http://oss.software.ibm.com/developer/opensource/linux/projects/ppc/models.php indicates that the 530 may not be supported. I'm not really surprised as the 530 uses the multi-chip implementation of the Power architecture which is significantly different to the PowerPC single chip. I also seem to recall that the 530 was MCA rather than PCI but I could well be wrong (it's been a while since I played with one). Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com Mon Sep 17 01:23:26 2001 From: norm-classiccmp at docnorm.com (norm-classiccmp@docnorm.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670A1@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, David Woyciesjes wrote: > Does anyone have any idea why it takes upwards of 15-20 minutes (seems > longer sometimes) for my postings to this list to get sent back out? The combination of Majordomo and Sendmail is notoriously slow at delivery to large mailing lists. Majordomo's out-of-the-box setup is to delegate all of the delivery hassle to Sendmail -- after deciding to forward a given message to the list, it passes it to a Sendmail process along with a list of all of the list's subscribers. The Sendmail processs then sorts the recipients by their MX and runs through the list host by host, one host at a time, until it's done with the delivery. If it takes a couple of minutes to do a particular host delivery (i.e. that host is very slow or it times out), that means that all the machines behind it on the list are delayed by couple of minutes. The end result is that people at the beginning of the list get quick turnaround times and people at the end of the list get variable but generally much longer turnarounds. Solutions to this problem are 1) not to care, 2) to switch from Sendmail to a mail transport agent like Qmail or Postfix that parallelizes its deliveries, 3) to switch from Majordomo to a mailing list manager that either breaks deliveries into smaller chunks (LISTSERV) or handles delivery on its own (Lyris), or 4) to patch Majordomo so that it sorts recipient lists and breaks them into chunks before passing them on to Sendmail. Majordomo 2.0, which is still not out of beta, does this out of the box. Many moons ago (almost 80?) I wrote a FAQ about all this stuff for comp.mail.list-admin.software, and this particular section is still relevant. It's at http://www.docnorm.com/mlmfaq. Norm Aleks From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 16 16:55:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen In-Reply-To: <3BA50694.96EFE04@home.com> from "Doug Coward" at Sep 16, 1 01:07:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2224 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010916/baa2a63d/attachment.ksh From matt at knm.yi.org Mon Sep 17 05:30:30 2001 From: matt at knm.yi.org (Matt London) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen In-Reply-To: <3BA50694.96EFE04@home.com> Message-ID: Hi, > Hi, > I'm looking for information about an author (and > a series of magazine articles he wrote in the early > 70's concerning analog computers) by the name of > D. Bollen. > The articles might have been published in "a popular > English `do it yourself' electronics magazine called > something like Practical Electronics". > Does anyone have a near complete collection of > Everyday Practical Electronics (EPE) Magazine? Maybe > the magazine has an author's index. Can anyone think > of the name another similar magaazine that fits this > description? Right. Well my first step would be to email someone at the magazine. EPE now own/have merged with just about every other popular electronics mag in the UK apart from maplin's "Electronics". They seem to be a friendly bunch from the dealings I've had with them. Going from the front cover of the latest issue (dropped through my door just a few days ago) their website is http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/ You also might like to try techdept@epemag.wimborne.co.uk Hope that's of some help to you :&) -- Matt --- E-mail: matt@pkl.net, matt@knm.yi.org, matt@printf.net matt@m-techdiagnostics.ltd.uk, matthew.london@stud.umist.ac.uk mattl@vcd.student.utwente.nl, mlondon@mail.talk-101.com Web Page: http://knm.yi.org/ http://pkl.net/~matt/ PGP Key fingerprint = 00BF 19FE D5F5 8EAD 2FD5 D102 260E 8BA7 EEE4 8D7F PGP Key http://knm.yi.org/matt-pgp.html From dec.parts at verizon.net Mon Sep 17 05:48:43 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Sync on Green Monitors and Others Message-ID: <3BA5D50B.B8C@verizon.net> Hello Blair, It seems from your description of your video connector that it may in fact be the 3W3 video connector as used on some DEC systems. One list member indicated ... > to 3 BNCs to hook up to a decent monitor that does sync on green If you try to use a fixed frequency monitor, you must use one that is a sync on green model monitor and that syncs at the correct horizontal and vertical frequencies. If you can determine which model monitor originally went to that system, you might be able to research a DEC or HP model that syncs at the same frequencies at ... http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/dec/ http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/hp/ > Find yerself a DEChead or two, and they may have a cable to fit... While I don't have any spares myself, I recently bought a cable from Barry's Supply. He has one currently available at ... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1275561813 > some older multisync Mac monitors with the 3-BNC input might work ^^^^^^^^^....... NOT .......... ^^^^^ Sony made monitors for DEC, HP, IBM, SGI, Sun, RasterOps, Radius, and possibly others. If a monitor has only 3-BNC inputs, it is most probably a sync on green fixed frequency model. If it has 4-BNC inputs, it is most probably a composite sync model ( the only exception I know of to that is a NEC model which also has a HD15 connector in addition to the 4-BNC's ). Any other monitor I have ever seen, other than those NEC models, that is a multisync had 5-BNC inputs. Note however that some 5-BNC input models are fixed frequency ( GDM-1950 and GDM-1952 come to mind ). Generally I have found that the Sony models that have 5-BNC inputs and rotary controls are the fixed frequency type. The models that have 5-BNC inputs and have push button controls ( digital ) have been multisyncs ( GDM-1971 and 2075RO come to mind ). http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/sony/ http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/radius/ http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/radius/0322precisioncolor20.html http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/rasterops/ http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/rasterops/2075ro20colorgraphicsdisplay.html Those monitors that are considered multisyncs should be able to sync up on a horizontal scan frequency as low as, or slightly lower than, DOS's 31.5 kHz. The really nice thing about the 5-BNC Sony models, both fixed frequency and multisyncs, is that they auto-sense, and auto-switch sync types. So even though the monitor has 5 BNC inputs, you can still hook up to just 3 of them if your graphics outputs a sync on green signal, or 4 of them if your graphics outputs a composite ( H and V on the same line, but a separate line than R, G, or B ) sync signal. And of course if your graphics outputs a separate sync signal ( H, V, R, G, and B all on separate lines ) you would connect to all 5-BNC inputs. I use my Sony multisyncs to hook up to and test my DEC Alpha's (SOG), VAXstation 4000/60's (SOG), HP PA-RISC (SOG), Sun's (CS), Macintosh's (CS), and of course, PC's (SS). In fact, my multisync Sony's have worked with just about every type system I have ever tried them on except my SGI Indy's, and that might be because the SGI's 13W3 pin-out might not be compatible with the 13W3 to HD15 adapter I use with the Sun's? It's been very convenient, space wise, to use one monitor to test all those type systems, rather than have to store a different monitor for each one. Bennett Subject: Re: IBM PowerStation 530 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:40:00 -0400 From: "Blair J. Miller" Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: References: 1 , 2 Emanual - Hrm... I guess if I'd have known from the beginning that the computer would be a '7013 model 530' I'd have been a lot better off. I didn't find the exact manual, but rather one for the '500' series, and though it was published in 1996 (this computer is from 1990 or so) most of the physical stuff still seems to apply. Thanks for the heads up... - Blair > Try www.ibm.com ;-) > Anyway, check the real product number of this machine. Should be > something like "7013 model 530" (?) Subject: Re: IBM PowerStation 530 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:45:29 -0400 From: "Blair J. Miller" Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: References: 1 , 2 > Yup, it's RGB, sync on green. You need to get a cable to break that out > to 3 BNCs to hook it up to a decent monitor that does sync on green... Unfortunately, the monitor that may have been hooked up to the machine was nowhere to be found... and this being my first classic computer, I don't have such a thing lying around either. :o( I read something about hooking a serial terminal up to the machine directly... Forgive me for dumb questions, but I'm assuming a serial terminal is one of those boxes that I keep seeing that has hookups for mice, keyboards, SVGA monitors, and the like? Also called a 'Terminal Station' I believe... Will this work? I don't even know if I'm asking the right question here, and I could be horribly, stupidly, wrong. :o) This thing comes from 'way back in the day' for me, before I was even interested in computers, so I don't know a whole heck of a lot right now. More research I guess... Thanks again. Blair Subject: Re: IBM PowerStation 530 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:49:01 -0400 From: "Blair J. Miller" Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: References: 1 > Without looking at your email address, it took me a moment to figure out > where you were... I'm up in Sault Ste. Marie, MI right on the Canadian I've been there once or twice... I believe I also have relatives living there, though that could just be my imagination. > Find yerself a DEChead or two, and they may have a cable to fit... and some > older multisync Mac monitors with the 3-BNC input might work with it as > well... Where would I find something like this... I've no problems driving around Michigan (I think of driving as a way to calm down, and I end up doing it a lot, especially when dealing with foreign territory in the world of computers) to get my hands on one, but I'm not sure where to look. I suppose another trip to property disposition is in order. :o) Thanks for the tips. Blair Subject: Re: IBM PowerStation 530 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:50:36 -0400 From: "Blair J. Miller" Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: References: 1 , 2 > If you decide not to keep the 530 let me know Will do. You close to Ann Arbor? Blair Subject: Re: IBM PowerStation 530 Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:53:16 -0400 From: "Blair J. Miller" Reply-To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org To: References: 1 > You should be able to get it to use a serial console. Having the key to > get it into service mode is extra helpful. Fortunately, I've got the key. Unfortunately, I'm a newbie to ALL of this, and I'm not sure what a serial console is... can you elaborate? > Making sure the RAM hasn't been removed is important. The amount would > matter if you were going to try to move to recent versions of AIX. I doubt it has. It was just sitting there, and it doesn't appear that anyone has opened it in a LONG LONG time. As for AIX, I'll figure that out when I can actually use the system. I also read something very brief that this machine would run LinuxPPC or YellowDog (forget which). Any idea if that's true? Thanks for your help. Blair From pete.rickard at carlingtech.com Mon Sep 17 06:34:37 2001 From: pete.rickard at carlingtech.com (Pete Rickard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #712 Message-ID: <200109171136.GAA04621@opal.tseinc.com> [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #712 9/11/01 I'm on vacation and will return on Monday, September 17th. Thanks! -Pete From pete.rickard at carlingtech.com Mon Sep 17 06:34:49 2001 From: pete.rickard at carlingtech.com (Pete Rickard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #715 Message-ID: <200109171136.GAA04607@opal.tseinc.com> [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #715 9/11/01 I'm on vacation and will return on Monday, September 17th. Thanks! -Pete From pete.rickard at carlingtech.com Mon Sep 17 06:34:41 2001 From: pete.rickard at carlingtech.com (Pete Rickard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 Message-ID: <200109171136.GAA04602@opal.tseinc.com> [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 9/11/01 I'm on vacation and will return on Monday, September 17th. Thanks! -Pete From pete.rickard at carlingtech.com Mon Sep 17 06:34:39 2001 From: pete.rickard at carlingtech.com (Pete Rickard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #713 Message-ID: <200109171136.GAA04600@opal.tseinc.com> [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #713 9/11/01 I'm on vacation and will return on Monday, September 17th. Thanks! -Pete From Diff at Mac.com Mon Sep 17 07:39:58 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 References: <200109171136.GAA04602@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <000b01c13f75$dd2ef450$6701a8c0@laboffice> Someone seems to have an autoresponse mechanism on, can someone deal with this? Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Rickard" To: "classiccmp" Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 7:34 AM Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 > [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 > 9/11/01 > I'm on vacation and will return on Monday, September 17th. > Thanks! -Pete > > From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Sep 17 08:12:00 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: What happened regarding the desktop hp3000 that was being discussed? -Bob >Brian Hechinger wrote: > >>On Fri, Sep 14, 2001 at 05:04:52PM -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: >> >>>I don't know what happened! I thought the person who had it >>>might have had contact with Brian directly? And then bad >>>things had happened Tuesday. I have bcc-ed her once again. >>>Kathleen, did anyone pick up those VAXen and HP 3000? >>> >> >>i'm sorry, i wasn't clear enough. i'll be picking up the VAXen, >>but i have no >>need for the HP. i was wondering if it was figured out who wanted it. >> >>-brian > > >We had two claims for it. One from Bob Schaefer, who said you'd >come to his place on your tour. One was Lee Courtney, who would >have to ship to CA. I'm sure Lee would arrange the shipment from >wherever it is, I just thought, may be, Kathleen might want it >out of her way with all the other stuff. > >It's up to you. Lee? It sounded like Bob would not genuinely >absolutely ache for the HP. Lee would want to donate it to a >school. On the other hand, Lee would need to ship it accross >the country. Lee, what would be your shipping arrangements? >Here are the "winners" according to my notes: > >VAX 11/730 - John Allain >VAX 11/750 - Sridhar, Vance, Master of all that Sucks, Absurdly Obtuse >HP 3000 - Lee or Bob > >But of course this is all subject to Kathleen if and when she >wants these machines taken. Did you have any contacts with >Kathleen now, Brian? > >regards >-Gunther > > >-- >Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org >Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care >Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine >tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From engdahl at cle.ab.com Mon Sep 17 08:42:03 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <10109150052.ZM7091@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <000701c13f7e$88b3d2c0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > Does it matter very much? There's at least 64K bytes for the BIOS ROM and > often twice that or more. Besides, that's why I suggested a SIMM or DIMM. > What I had in mind was a bootstrap in the "BIOS" ROM socket and an EPROM > or two on a home-made SIMM/DIMM with the main code. Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? Have you ever soldered down a flash ROM? Not fun. I used 36 gauge self-strip magnet wire and tweezers under a 40X stereoscope. I'd rather buy one prebuilt if available. If you build you own, it might be hard getting the interfacing and timing compatible with DRAMs. Of course it would be feasible to implement a PDP-11 emulator in the BIOS ROM, it just would not be as fast as the one I'm thinking of. Back in the days of QEMM/386, I remember allocating 64K for the BIOS ROM. I haven't really looked that closely at a BIOS ROM since then. I was wondering if modern mainboards had larger ROMs, or if they still are stuck with 64K. You could compress the emulator into the ROM and expand it to RAM at boot time. Since the emulator will be pretty regular, it might compress well. Another idea: if you created the emulator with a code generator, you could put the code generator into the boot ROM, and compile the emulator at boot time. I haven't looked at it yet, but I was imagining the emulator would be a several megabytes of code. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From fernande at internet1.net Mon Sep 17 08:52:20 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #712 References: <200109171136.GAA04621@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BA60014.F8726891@internet1.net> Have a great vacation Pete :-) Have a great vacation Pete :-) Have a great vacation Pete :-) Have a great vacation Pete :-) Have a great vacation Pete :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Pete Rickard wrote: > > [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #712 > 9/11/01 > I'm on vacation and will return on Monday, September 17th. > Thanks! -Pete From thompson at mail.athenet.net Mon Sep 17 08:59:53 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <001901c13ec6$9cb88670$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Sep 2001, Blair J. Miller wrote: > I read something about hooking a serial terminal up to the machine > directly... Forgive me for dumb questions, but I'm assuming a serial > terminal is one of those boxes that I keep seeing that has hookups for mice, > keyboards, SVGA monitors, and the like? Also called a 'Terminal Station' I > believe... Will this work? I don't even know if I'm asking the right > question here, and I could be horribly, stupidly, wrong. :o) This thing > comes from 'way back in the day' for me, before I was even interested in > computers, so I don't know a whole heck of a lot right now. More research I > guess... I am not familiar with the Terminal station, it might work. Your best bet for immediate results is to hook the machine to the serial port of a PC or laptop and run some sort of terminal emulator. There is the inadequate Hyperterm which comes with Windows which works in a pinch, or Procomm, Reflections are common commercial packages and there are a number of freeware packages as well such as minicom for linux. I use Reflections or minicom to act as a console with my 7011-220. Paul From hansp at aconit.org Mon Sep 17 10:31:25 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 (was RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <025601c13d72$603d4a00$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BA6174D.3060205@aconit.org> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Brian Knittel >> >>Norm Aleks and I just acquired an IBM 1130, and as far as I can >>see, there is NO software archived out there anywhere. It's very >>discouraging. You can bet that we're going to post whatever we can >>get our hands on, along with the simh-based simulator I'm 75% done >>with, to hopefully reawaken interest in the 1130. > Oh my, an 1130! I don't think we've ever encountered such a severe case of > the classic computers disease. Brian, you need help. > Do you want me to see if I have any 1130 listings in the attic? I > learned/played/worked with an 1130, and a General Automation 18/30, from > 1972 to about 1975. Yes please. Any 1130 software would be very welcome. We also have an 1130 the CPU is functional but have not yet gotten the peripherals operational. We also have a complete set of engineering and maintenance documents and listings of the diagnostics software. Unfortunatley the quality of the listings is quite poor and OCR just does not get anything form the test scans I have done. There is a working 1130 with lots of software at an IBM museum in Germany. Once ours is operational my plan is to go out there are see what I can pick up. Also I have a lead to someone who says that have a set of microfiche with the source code to a lot of 1130 software. Getting that would be very useful, though recovering machine readable versiosn would be a problem. Regards, -- HBP From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Sep 17 09:50:48 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM Keys was: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: ; from ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk on Sat, Sep 15, 2001 at 11:51:30PM +0100 References: <200109151939.f8FJd80488678@logs-wq.proxy.aol.com> Message-ID: <20010917095048.C2231502@uiuc.edu> You can also just replace the keyswitch with a standard 3-position toggle switch... just unplug the keyswitch from the machine, cut it off the little wiring harness they use, and replace it. It does make the machine less pretty (or at least less authentic...you can just leave the lock in the machine's case), but it'll work... Tony Duell said: > > Most locks are designed to be difficult/impossible to dismantle from the > front when locked (for obvious reasons), but sometimes they are a lot > easier to work on if you can remove the lock mechanism and get to all sides. > > I've done a bit with the tubular keys/locks used on the PC/AT cabinet, > and on DEC machines, etc. > > Generally, you take off any cams/levers on the back (obvious nut) and > take out the lock itself (slide-on clip, or another nut). > > On the IBM PC/AT one, there's a pin inserted from one side that holds it > together. You have to drill this out (and you need at least a drill stand > and prefereably a pillar drill or machine tool to do this). Then the back > plate comes out of the housing and you can dismantle the lock. It > consists of a disk with holes that rotates, and a set of pins, similar in > concept to those in a Yale-type cylinder lock inserted in those holes. > > Once you've got it apart, you can do several things : > > 1) Reassemble it with no pins. Any key that will physically fit will turn > it (even that DEC plastic key!). Who cares about security on a classic > computer > > 2) Modify a key you have to suit the pins. You can mill the notches > deeper in the key and re-arange the pins. Obviously you need to find a > key where you can arrange the pins so that there are no notches that are > too deep > > 3) Make up a set of pins to suit the key you have. You may even be able > to buy the pins if you know a friendly locksmith (although in my > experience such people are not keen to supply hackers with parts, even > things like pins which couldn't possibly be used for breaking-and-entering). > > -tony - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Sep 17 10:00:15 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Why is this so slow? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670BB@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Well, I asked this, just in case there was a problem somewhere. Every other mailing list I'm on does not have a delay this bad. I'm not worried about a delay, but with it being 1.5 hours, it seems like there's a problem somewhere. We're using Exchange here at work, so that might be it. If anyone has any hints of stuff for me to check out here at this end, let me knwo, off-list... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Roger Merchberger [mailto:zmerch@30below.com] ! Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 4:22 PM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: RE: Why is this so slow? ! ! ! Rumor has it that David Woyciesjes may have mentioned these words: ! >Rich --- ! > Actually, my time estimate was a little wrong. The messages take ! >about an hour and a half... ! ! [snip] ! ! I've not seen lags anywhere near that -- mebbe 5-10 minutes ! at most. My ! Eudora checks mail every 4 minutes, and it's usually 2 checks ! & it's there. ! ! Methinks it might be something on your end... Have you called ! your ISP? ! ! I'll time this one and see what I end up with... ! ! HTH, ! "Merch" ! -- ! Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers ! Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. ! ! If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead ! disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. ! From John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk Mon Sep 17 09:57:07 2001 From: John.Honniball at uwe.ac.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen In-Reply-To: <3BA50694.96EFE04@home.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:07:48 -0700 Doug Coward wrote: > The articles might have been published in "a popular > English `do it yourself' electronics magazine called > something like Practical Electronics". I have quite a few copies of Practical Electronics, as well as some Everyday Electronics. I'll check them out. > I've been told that these articles contain the > "Full details" of my C180 english analog computer. I remember reading old copies of PE in the school Electonics Lab, back in 1979. There were articles about making a quite sophisticated analog robot of the "white line follower" or "light-seeking" type. The magazines were old, even then, so I'd suspect a date from the late 1960s. -- John Honniball Email: John.Honniball@uwe.ac.uk University of the West of England From dtwright at uiuc.edu Mon Sep 17 10:05:48 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Sync on Green Monitors and Others In-Reply-To: <3BA5D50B.B8C@verizon.net>; from dec.parts@verizon.net on Mon, Sep 17, 2001 at 06:48:43AM -0400 References: <3BA5D50B.B8C@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20010917100547.D2231502@uiuc.edu> Info from LSI said: > > my multisync Sony's have worked with just about every type system > I have ever tried them on except my SGI Indy's, and that might be > because the SGI's 13W3 pin-out might not be compatible with the > 13W3 to HD15 adapter I use with the Sun's? It's been very That's correct, the SGIs actually so SOG over the 13W3 connector. I don't know what the pinout is, but I DO know that the 13W3 to HD15 adapters sold for Suns don't work with the SGIs...I've got about 8 of those adapters at work and they only work with our Suns. You can buy the right adapter from Ultra Spec cables: https://www.ultraspec.com/ultra/dept.asp?dept%5Fid=1111 I've bought a lot of cables and adapters from them for work over the past couple years; they're kind of expensive, but their stuff is quite good; the SCSI cables in particular are of very high quality. - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Sep 17 10:49:32 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Some new stuff. What is it? Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670BC@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! >Modified Modular Jack. It's DEC connector, a bit like a ! >telephone plug ! >with the locking clip offset from the middle... ! ! Can someone get me a pinout of that? I suppose it shouldn't be too ! hard to change out for a normal jack. Pins: 1 - DSR 2 - RX+ 3 - RX- 4 - TX- 5 - TX+ 6 - DTR As seen here... http://www.openvms.compaq.com/wizard/openvms_faq.html#WIRES1 --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Sep 17 10:39:29 2001 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 Message-ID: Roger Merchberger replied to Blair Miller... >>now, so I've never seen the monitor hook-up either... it's mini-coax and >>looks like the diagram below: >> >>(o)(o)(o) >> >>I'm assuming that's RGB... > >Yep... As the ascii graphic (while pretty) is not completely informative, >if it's three mini-coax in IIRC a DB shell, it could be the same cable as >is used on some DEC machines, notably some of the older RISC boxen & the >DEC 3000/300 (which I have)... A cable meeting a similar description (dunno if it's identical?) to go from my VAX 4000 VLC to its VRC-16HA monitor carries the label: BC29G-09. When I google-searched for it, I found it available for prices ranging from around $15 to around $120 (!) on the net. This was several months ago. - Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 17 10:51:51 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 In-Reply-To: <000b01c13f75$dd2ef450$6701a8c0@laboffice> References: <200109171136.GAA04602@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: >Someone seems to have an autoresponse mechanism on, can someone deal with >this? Look at the bright side of things, most people that set these up aren't on digest mode! In fact I think this is the first time I've seen where the person is. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Sep 17 10:46:22 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Bob Brown's message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:12:00 -0500" References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <200109171546.f8HFkM573881@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Bob Brown wrote: > What happened regarding the desktop hp3000 that was being discussed? "desk-sized", not "desktop". It looks sort of like one and takes up about that much floor space, which is handy to know when one is figuring out how to lay out one's computer room. Speaking from personal experience, you may have to un-bolt the top (the woodgrain bit) to get a /44, /48, or /58 to fit around corners and through doors. -Frank McConnell From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Mon Sep 17 11:59:55 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: FW: scosug-talk: funny thread from other list Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA615014670BE@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> ! -----Original Message----- ! Subject: Re: unix ! From: "Brad Brown" ! Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 10:48:55 -0700 ! X-Message-Number: 10 ! ! rm -rf /bin/laden = force the recursive removal of bin laden. ! This would include himself, as well as all of his subordinates ! ! chmod a+x /bin/laden = allow anyone the permission to execute ! bin laden --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co Mon Sep 17 11:59:16 2001 From: cmurillo at manizales.autonoma.edu.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Philips P850 (Was: Classic Computers vs...) References: <3.0.2.32.20010916205510.00f3237c@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3BA62BE4.AFE71FB9@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> "Tony Duell" wrote: > How long have you been on this list :-). You mean I've not waffled on > about it recently??? I've been on this list for about 2 years, but I have to say that sometimes I miss some of the posts because I can't cope with the traffic. > To answer the last part first, yes the P850 was perfectly operational > last time I used it (about a year ago), and I don't see any reason why it > should have failed since then. > > OK, to the programmer it looks like a 16 bit machine, but it's actually > got an 8 bit ALU and 8 bit data path to memory. Every word is processed > in 2 cycles, one of the low byte, one for the high byte. [very interesting description of the machine deleted] > -tony Thanks Tony! looks like a rather interesting machine to learn about processing units. I don't have any machine with a TTL-implemented processor. I'll keep my eyes open for one... carlos. -- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez email: carlos_murillo@ieee.org Universidad Autonoma de Manizales, Manizales, Colombia ---- "I've always thought that underpopulated countries in Africa are vastly underpolluted." -- Lawrence Summers, chief economist of the World Bank, explaining why we should export toxic wastes to Third World countries. From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Mon Sep 17 12:12:30 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: <200109171546.f8HFkM573881@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <200109171546.f8HFkM573881@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: The one I heard about was called a 'micro 3000' and was described as desktop sized...(I thought this was diffeent from the model 48 that was also being described).... -Bob >Bob Brown wrote: > > What happened regarding the desktop hp3000 that was being discussed? > >"desk-sized", not "desktop". It looks sort of like one and takes up >about that much floor space, which is handy to know when one is >figuring out how to lay out one's computer room. > >Speaking from personal experience, you may have to un-bolt the top >(the woodgrain bit) to get a /44, /48, or /58 to fit around corners >and through doors. > >-Frank McConnell bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From zmerch at 30below.com Mon Sep 17 12:25:46 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Vacation... (was: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714) In-Reply-To: References: <000b01c13f75$dd2ef450$6701a8c0@laboffice> <200109171136.GAA04602@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010917132546.014f7ec0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Zane H. Healy may have mentioned these words: >>Someone seems to have an autoresponse mechanism on, can someone deal with >>this? > >Look at the bright side of things, most people that set these up aren't on >digest mode! In fact I think this is the first time I've seen where the >person is. The bright side? The guy's got enough vacation to still be gone after several digests??? I'd gladly trade him "problems" in a heartbeat -- I'd have much more time for working on my CoCo's & VAXen... :-) "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Sep 17 12:37:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: Sync on Green Monitors and Others In-Reply-To: Dan Wright "Re: Sync on Green Monitors and Others" (Sep 17, 10:05) References: <3BA5D50B.B8C@verizon.net> <20010917100547.D2231502@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: <10109171837.ZM11938@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 17, 10:05, Dan Wright wrote: > Info from LSI said: > > > > my multisync Sony's have worked with just about every type system > > I have ever tried them on except my SGI Indy's, and that might be > > because the SGI's 13W3 pin-out might not be compatible with the > > 13W3 to HD15 adapter I use with the Sun's? It's been very > > That's correct, the SGIs actually so SOG over the 13W3 connector. I don't > know what the pinout is, but I DO know that the 13W3 to HD15 adapters sold for > Suns don't work with the SGIs. Some SGIs do put out a separate sync signal; some Suns do as well. However, SGIs tend to provide separate hsync and vsync while Suns mostly do composite sync. Moreover, they use different pins for the sync and monitor type sense. I'm sure I posted the two pinouts to the list a while ago. But I've found almost all my multisync Sonys work with mu Indys and Indigos, providing I have the relevant 13W3-3xBNC or whatever cable. I think the only exception I've found was a Sun-badged Sony that wanted composite sync. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Sep 17 12:59:19 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:37 2005 Subject: scosug-talk: funny thread from other list Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722574D@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > ! rm -rf /bin/laden = force the recursive removal of bin laden. > ! This would include himself, as well as all of his subordinates There is actually already in production a line of t-shirts, sweatshirts, and a coffee mug with this on it. > ! chmod a+x /bin/laden = allow anyone the permission to execute > ! bin laden heh... hadn't seen this one. -dq From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Mon Sep 17 13:16:44 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: [1]classiccmp-digest V1 #714 References: <200109171136.GAA04602@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BA63E0C.E438D495@tinyworld.co.uk> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >Someone seems to have an autoresponse mechanism on, can someone deal > with this? > > Look at the bright side of things, most people that set these up > aren't on digest mode! In fact I think this is the first time I've > seen where the person is. I would say that his autoresponder is faulty. Messages on mailing lists, including this one, generally go out with a "Precedence: bulk" header. Autoresponders shouldn't respond to that. From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 17 10:02:12 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <000701c13f7e$88b3d2c0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> References: <000701c13f7e$88b3d2c0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <01Sep17.143524edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From fmc at reanimators.org Mon Sep 17 13:18:18 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Anyone want an 11/750 & 11/730 out of New Jersey? In-Reply-To: Bob Brown's message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2001 12:12:30 -0500" References: <20010910141945.B2369@wintermute.arkham.ws> <20010914173250.F812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA27F04.8010304@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010914180411.L812@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BA289D4.7060802@aurora.regenstrief.org> <200109171546.f8HFkM573881@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Message-ID: <200109171818.f8HIIIY78062@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Bob Brown wrote: > The one I heard about was called a 'micro 3000' and was described as > desktop sized...(I thought this was diffeent from the model 48 that was > also being described).... Oops, sorry about that! I was thinking about the series 48 that had been mentioned in this thread. Yes, a Micro 3000 is more "desktop sized", or at least the processor is. Peripherals like disc and tape drives are in separate boxes so it's easy to end up with a system comprising several small boxes (e.g. a Micro 3000, a 9144 cartridge tape, and a couple of 79[45][1-9] disc drives), and once you've got all that they can be stacked inside a desk-side cabinet that HP used to sell for the purpose. If you look at the cover of the September 1985 HP Journal you will see a 3000 series 37 in this sort of cabinet. Note there are also "Micro GX", "Micro RX", and "Micro LX" models that are usually mounted in desk-side tower cabinets that have room for a 9144-like cartridge tape drive in the top and two disc drives in the base, and also keep the ATP/M mux panels (serial connectors) inside the cabinet. They weigh about 70 pounds and can be moved by a single person reasonably easily. -Frank McConnell From Diff at Mac.com Mon Sep 17 14:34:31 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000701c13f7e$88b3d2c0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <01Sep17.143524edt.119041@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <000701c13faf$c6a344e0$6701a8c0@laboffice> By Apple set top box, do you mean the Mac that was black, and had a TV? Or do you mean that device that was never released, is Apple branded, and plugged into a TV? Or another machine all together? Can you elaborate? Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Hellige" To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:02 AM Subject: RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) > >Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? > > The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot > code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel > E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). > -- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From bob at jfcl.com Mon Sep 17 14:34:53 2001 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Free printer supplies in Milpitas CA Message-ID: <01091712345317@jfcl.com> We have several (about six or so) full boxes of fanfold, tractor feed, printer paper, both 8.5 x 11 and 11 x 14 sizes, that are free to anybody who wants to pick them up in Milpitas. We have lots (a couple dozen at least - I'm too lazy to count them) "data binders" for 11 x 14 printouts. These are the nice, heavy covers that fit printouts on tractor feed paper and keep them clean and pristine. Also free, in Milpitas. We have have a printer stand for a 11 x 14 tractor feed printer, complete with a sound proof enclosure and fan. No printer, I'm afraid, but still free. Contact me if you want any or all of them. Bob Armstrong bob@jfcl.com From owad at applefritter.com Mon Sep 17 15:37:48 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <000701c13faf$c6a344e0$6701a8c0@laboffice> References: <000701c13faf$c6a344e0$6701a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <20010917203748.12449@mail.lafayette.edu> >> >Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? >> >> The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot >> code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel >> E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). I think that's just in the earlier prototypes. What you have is probably like this: Later prototypes used a Mask ROM: >By Apple set top box, do you mean the Mac that was black, and had a TV? Or >do you mean that device that was never released, is Apple branded, and >plugged into a TV? Or another machine all together? Can you elaborate? He means 'a never-released device that plugged into a TV', also known as the "Interactive Television Box". It's based on the LC 475. Info at . I'd be very curious if anybody's managed to get one of these to boot. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Sep 17 15:42:09 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) Message-ID: >By Apple set top box, do you mean the Mac that was black, and had a TV? Or >do you mean that device that was never released, is Apple branded, and >plugged into a TV? Or another machine all together? Can you elaborate? I think he means the black decoder like unit that was never released... at least his flash DIMM description fits the one that I have. (I just need a remote for mine, anyone have one?) Now if I can just find a MacTV (the first thing you mentioned) or a Pippin (the Apple/Bandi "Playstation" like thing), I can be a happy camper. -chris From Diff at Mac.com Mon Sep 17 16:47:11 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Apple Set Top Box References: Message-ID: <000d01c13fc2$5139c3b0$6701a8c0@laboffice> > I think he means the black decoder like unit that was never released... > at least his flash DIMM description fits the one that I have. (I just > need a remote for mine, anyone have one?) What was that machine? I remember seeing one a while ago and never figuring out what it was. Zach From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Mon Sep 17 16:48:07 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs . Classic Computing) Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225750@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > >Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? > > The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot > code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel > E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). Additionlly, several models of Macs have had either SIMM or DIMM sockets for ROMs; in the case of the Mac IIci, it's unpopulated, and my guess was there either for upgrades or for some special- order boxes used by an unnamed customer... ditto the Quadra 605 (LCII format). Regards, -dq From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Sep 17 17:00:34 2001 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <200109171935.OAA30244@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BA61012.8650.3200F36@localhost> Good to hear there some other 1130 fans out there! I should have added that we have ten disk cartridges with our 1130. One is labeled "IBM Only" and we hope it's a CE disk. We didn't find any punched card based software other than four IPL (boot) cards. One is labeled "APLIPL" and we have an APL typeball, so we think one of the cartridges has APL on it. However, we're a long way from trying to spin it up to see if the disks are still readable after what must be 20 years. We also have the maintenance manuals and schematics, but no diagnostic software listings. We'd be interested in getting copies of anything you get scanned or OCR'd, Hans. Norm is setting up a boffo website for it all. A grand opening announcement will be coming soon! And as for Jonathan's observation: > Oh my, an 1130! I don't think we've ever encountered such a severe case of > the classic computers disease. Brian, you need help. I don't think we can claim to have the worst case around here, no sirreee. On the other hand, Norm was suggesting that we port the 1130 emulator to the Palm platform and ... Brian =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- _| _| _| Brian Knittel / Quarterbyte Systems, Inc. _| _| _| Tel: 1-510-559-7930 Fax: 1-510-525-6889 _| _| _| Email: brian@quarterbyte.com _| _| _| http://www.quarterbyte.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 17 17:13:29 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <20010917203748.12449@mail.lafayette.edu> References: <000701c13faf$c6a344e0$6701a8c0@laboffice> <20010917203748.12449@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: > >> The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot >>> code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel >>> E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). > >I think that's just in the earlier prototypes. What you have is probably >like this: > > Yes, that's identical to the one inside my box. On the back of the flash SIMM there's a sticker labled 'LC 475 GM' and 'Apple Computer (c) 1994'. Do you know if the later machines still retained the interesting chips such as the Xilinx XC4010-4 and C-Cube MPEG decoder? >I'd be very curious if anybody's managed to get one of these to boot. I've never gotten mine to do anything either. I did see a site one time that claimed to have actually gotten a display from theirs though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 17 17:15:42 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >I think he means the black decoder like unit that was never released... >at least his flash DIMM description fits the one that I have. (I just >need a remote for mine, anyone have one?) They were never put into full production but their seem to have been enough of them made for various marketing trials since they appear on eBay quite a bit. The first one that appeared caused quite a sensation but now the prices have dropped to very little. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Sep 17 18:00:33 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Apple Set Top Box Message-ID: >What was that machine? I remember seeing one a while ago and never figuring >out what it was. It was a custom designed interactive TV unit, used for some test program in Texas and I think the UK. I think it was tested in a few schools, but I really don't know how far it went (it was probably slammed out of existance either by cost, or more likely by Channel 1 if it was meant for the educational market). I don't personally know of anyone that has gotten theirs to do anything, although I have read posts of a few people that got theirs to at least boot to an Apple logo screen. Mine just sits (it gets a red "starting up" light, but never gets past that to the yellow "standby" or green "on", or even the red blinking "busted" light). I got mine from a garage sale just recently (paid $5 for it, no remote, no anything, just the unit)... the guy selling it said his son went off to college, and he was getting rid of some of his "junk" he had kicking around the house while his son wasn't there to complain... my guess is, when the son gets home for vacation, he will be mighty pissed off (I also got a vintage 2 foot Godzilla with working shoot out hands and flicking fire breath... paid $2 for that). I have seen them come and go on ebay, usually selling for between $10 and $20 if you want to pick one up. -chris From dittman at dittman.net Mon Sep 17 18:00:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs In-Reply-To: from "Douglas Quebbeman" at Sep 17, 2001 05:48:07 PM Message-ID: <200109172300.f8HN0e520050@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > >Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? > > > > The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot > > code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel > > E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). > > Additionlly, several models of Macs have had either SIMM or DIMM > sockets for ROMs; in the case of the Mac IIci, it's unpopulated, > and my guess was there either for upgrades or for some special- > order boxes used by an unnamed customer... ditto the Quadra 605 > (LCII format). My Mac IIfx used a ROM SIMM. The IIfx was the last Mac I ever bought, too, after the way Apple treated IIfx owners. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From donm at cts.com Mon Sep 17 18:31:20 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs In-Reply-To: <200109172300.f8HN0e520050@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > >Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? > > > > > > The Apple Set Top box uses flash SIMM/DIMMs for it's boot > > > code. At least the one I have does. It's a 68pin SIMM with 8 Intel > > > E28F020 flash memory chips (256k x 8). > > > > Additionlly, several models of Macs have had either SIMM or DIMM > > sockets for ROMs; in the case of the Mac IIci, it's unpopulated, > > and my guess was there either for upgrades or for some special- > > order boxes used by an unnamed customer... ditto the Quadra 605 > > (LCII format). > > My Mac IIfx used a ROM SIMM. The IIfx was the last Mac I ever > bought, too, after the way Apple treated IIfx owners. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ The SE/30 and the IIsi were also configured that way. I was told that the intent was to permit patching the firmware, either in case of a bug or upgrade. - don From owad at applefritter.com Mon Sep 17 18:40:31 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010917234031.24327@mail.lafayette.edu> >> > > Yes, that's identical to the one inside my box. On the back >of the flash SIMM there's a sticker labled 'LC 475 GM' and 'Apple >Computer (c) 1994'. Do you know if the later machines still retained >the interesting chips such as the Xilinx XC4010-4 and C-Cube MPEG >decoder? I think so. I don't have mine with me, but as I recall, the motherboards are virtually identical, if not 100% identical. Here's a comparison of two: They look identical to me. In fact, they look so identical I'm almost worried I took two pictures of the same unit. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 17 18:50:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Philips P850 (Was: Classic Computers vs...) In-Reply-To: <3BA62BE4.AFE71FB9@manizales.autonoma.edu.co> from "Carlos Murillo" at Sep 17, 1 12:59:16 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1484 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010918/fd3cc2e5/attachment.ksh From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Sep 17 12:46:05 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: "Jonathan Engdahl" "RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing)" (Sep 17, 9:42) References: <000701c13f7e$88b3d2c0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <10109171846.ZM11951@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 17, 9:42, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Have you ever soldered down a flash ROM? Not fun. I used 36 gauge self-strip > magnet wire and tweezers under a 40X stereoscope. I'd rather buy one > prebuilt if available. If you build you own, it might be hard getting the > interfacing and timing compatible with DRAMs. The ones I've seen have been regular SMD (0.5" pitch) devices which are not too hard to do with hot air, or are ordinary DIL (0.1" pitch). The last one I soldered was a DIL chip. Timing might be a problem; I have almost no idea what access time DIMMs are supposed to be but I expect it's faster than SIMMs. SIMMs are usually in the 60ns-120ns range, and it's not too hard to get FLASH or EPROM in that range too. You'd just need to demultiplex the addresses (latch the addresses presented on the first part of the memory cycle). Of course, modern motherboards use DIMMs. > Of course it would be feasible to implement a PDP-11 emulator in the BIOS > ROM, it just would not be as fast as the one I'm thinking of. Back in the > days of QEMM/386, I remember allocating 64K for the BIOS ROM. I haven't > really looked that closely at a BIOS ROM since then. I was wondering if > modern mainboards had larger ROMs, or if they still are stuck with 64K. I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall seeing at least 128KB. Not megabytes, though! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 17 19:25:37 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <20010917234031.24327@mail.lafayette.edu> References: <20010917234031.24327@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: > > > >They look identical to me. In fact, they look so identical I'm almost >worried I took two pictures of the same unit. Nope, different machines. One has a number stamped on the casing near the fan cutout, which the other doesn't, and the QA stickers to the rear of the STB ROM are different. It's interesting that all the ones I've seen so far have the fan cutout but no fan. One would think it'd be needed with the 68040 in there with no heatsink. Are yours boxed? Mine is, but somewhere along the way the Apple ID stickers were removed from the bottom of the unit. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Mon Sep 17 19:49:53 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Alpha CPU Message-ID: <02d701c13fdb$d4ad9d20$05ffa8c0@hx.com> I'm still looking for a DEC Alpha 21066A 233MHz chip to upgrade my AXPpci 33 motherboard. I want to either buy that CPU, or swap for other DEC Alpha chips. I have two 21064A 166MHz CPUs and one 21164-AA (266MHz) CPU. Jacek Artymiak -- r e k l a m a Lista Plac [ http://listaplac.onet.pl ] From owad at applefritter.com Mon Sep 17 20:52:24 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010918015224.32183@mail.lafayette.edu> > Nope, different machines. One has a number stamped on the >casing near the fan cutout, which the other doesn't, and the QA >stickers to the rear of the STB ROM are different. It's interesting >that all the ones I've seen so far have the fan cutout but no fan. >One would think it'd be needed with the 68040 in there with no >heatsink. Are yours boxed? Mine is, but somewhere along the way the >Apple ID stickers were removed from the bottom of the unit. No, I didn't get any boxes with mine. One fellow I've talked with an original STB has a HD in his. He can't get his to boot, either, but putting the HD in another Mac he found a bunch of "Oracle Media Objects". Apparently they rely on some of the STB's hardware to work, though. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From marvin at rain.org Mon Sep 17 21:16:04 2001 From: marvin at rain.org (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: HP Cassette Tapes Message-ID: <3BA6AE64.6C0E736E@rain.org> I just received about 80 HP Cassette tapes today, and have no idea what these things might be used on or for. They appear to be about DC-100 size and have names such as "64850-10005 Z8 asm/lnk", "64815-10002 68000 Pascal Compiler", "64816-10005 Z8001/2 Pascal Compiler", "Z80 Emul/Asm", etc. Anyone have any idea of what machine these things might be used on? From foo at siconic.com Mon Sep 17 21:50:32 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: HP Cassette Tapes In-Reply-To: <3BA6AE64.6C0E736E@rain.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just received about 80 HP Cassette tapes today, and have no idea > what these things might be used on or for. They appear to be about > DC-100 size and have names such as "64850-10005 Z8 asm/lnk", > "64815-10002 68000 Pascal Compiler", "64816-10005 Z8001/2 Pascal > Compiler", "Z80 Emul/Asm", etc. Anyone have any idea of what machine > these things might be used on? Maybe the HP-85? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 17 22:19:34 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: HP Cassette Tapes In-Reply-To: HP Cassette Tapes (Marvin Johnston) References: <3BA6AE64.6C0E736E@rain.org> Message-ID: <15270.48454.863122.136560@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 17, Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just received about 80 HP Cassette tapes today, and have no idea what > these things might be used on or for. They appear to be about DC-100 > size and have names such as "64850-10005 Z8 asm/lnk", "64815-10002 68000 > Pascal Compiler", "64816-10005 Z8001/2 Pascal Compiler", "Z80 Emul/Asm", > etc. Anyone have any idea of what machine these things might be used on? I'd guess they'd be for the HP64000 dev/emul system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 17 22:33:20 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Hardware races Message-ID: <006201c13ff2$af3387f0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> On another list someone mentioned that a PDP11 ran at about the same speed as a 486-66. I don't have a 486-66 but do have a PDP11/34 in the garage so I suggested that if a 486-66 could be found we could have a race. I tested the capacitors on the weekend and they were OK, still need to test the RL01 drives and get them hooked up. >From the cables in the cabinet and the terminator on one of the drives I'm guessing that they are daisy chained. A few questions remain. What would be the best way to test the Power supply it is currently off the chassis, does it need to be connected for testing? Any suggestions for a fair race? Recent additions: Unisys PW2 (Unisys ICON NETWORK), Microcom (apple clone), SHARP PC4500 Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 17 22:40:03 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <000701c13f7e$88b3d2c0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <20010918034003.10430.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > ...Besides, that's why I suggested a SIMM or DIMM. > > Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? Cisco routers have used them in the past, and I have an internet appliance called a WebPal (StrongARM processor, ISA slot, TV out, IR keyboard, yadda, yadda) with a 1Mb FLASH DIMM with a blank spot. Someone has ported Linux to it, but you need the 2Mb DIMM and an external programmer to get a kernel into it. -ethan __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 17 22:44:12 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Mark-8 computer References: <3BA6AE64.6C0E736E@rain.org> <15270.48454.863122.136560@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <004401c13ff6$08e33fe0$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> I just picked up a kit from a fellow on ebay - he remade some 6 board pcb sets from the magazine articles and includes scans of the original 1974 article and construction notes/fixes. He includes the 8008, 1101 srams and some hard to get parts, leaving only the jellybean ttl to buy (hope I can sub HC or LS...). I'm looking for some software for this machine -or any 8008 - any one out there have a monitor ? assembler? Don't know if there was ever a "tiny basic" for the 8008, but I remeber reading that Intel had cross tools running on the Intellec 8080 systems (big blue boxes) that would take 8080 assembler and translate it (poorly) to 8008. Here's the kit if anyone is interested - I have no connection with the seller. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1273416239 Regards heinz From red at bears.org Tue Sep 18 00:47:02 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? Message-ID: I'm looking for list members who own functioning M88k-series DG Aviion machines for a research base, so I can finish resurrecting my 310CD. I need some NVRAM information. Let me know if you have one; include the model and graphics type, or at least as much as you know about either. I'll follow up with more information in a week or so, depending on what kind of response I get. Thanks, I'd really appreciate it it! ok r. From andyh at netcomuk.co.uk Tue Sep 18 01:13:52 2001 From: andyh at netcomuk.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: UK members - Leicester (Donnington) show In-Reply-To: <200109171935.OAA30244@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <001201c14009$17257a60$4d4d2c0a@atx> Anyone else going to the Leicester show at Donnington on Friday? Not that the chances of finding anything really classic - as far as computers are concerned, anyhow - are that brilliant. But probably better than the last Ally Pally Rally. Andy From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Sep 18 01:05:54 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: HP Cassette Tapes In-Reply-To: Marvin Johnston's message of "Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:16:04 -0700" References: <3BA6AE64.6C0E736E@rain.org> Message-ID: <200109180605.f8I65ts98050@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Marvin Johnston wrote: > I just received about 80 HP Cassette tapes today, and have no idea what > these things might be used on or for. They appear to be about DC-100 > size and have names such as "64850-10005 Z8 asm/lnk", "64815-10002 68000 > Pascal Compiler", "64816-10005 Z8001/2 Pascal Compiler", "Z80 Emul/Asm", > etc. Anyone have any idea of what machine these things might be used on? HP 64000 cross-development system. Some used DC100 tapes as distribution media, others used 5.25" floppies. -Frank McConnell From kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk Tue Sep 18 01:28:20 2001 From: kevin at xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk (Kevin Murrell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: UK members - Leicester (Donnington) show In-Reply-To: <001201c14009$17257a60$4d4d2c0a@atx> Message-ID: Can you let us have some more info? Kevin > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Andy Holt > Sent: 18 September 2001 07:14 > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: UK members - Leicester (Donnington) show > > > Anyone else going to the Leicester show at Donnington on Friday? > > Not that the chances of finding anything really classic - as far as > computers are concerned, anyhow - are that brilliant. But probably better > than the last Ally Pally Rally. > > Andy > > From lipo.ml at gmx.at Tue Sep 18 04:00:21 2001 From: lipo.ml at gmx.at (Roland E. Lipovits) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? References: Message-ID: <9o72f5$40s$1@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: >Let me know if you have one; include the model and graphics type, or at >least as much as you know about either. I have one AViiON 3400 in my attic, but no disks in it and no OS available for it. I used a serial console and it's booting up to the point where it would access the disks. And I know of another one here in Vienna in some other collector's attic. Regards, Lipo -- Roland E. Lipovits Vienna, Austria From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 18 04:19:15 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109180919.LAA28932@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Sep, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > I'm looking for list members who own functioning M88k-series DG Aviion > machines for a research base, so I can finish resurrecting my 310CD. I > need some NVRAM information. I own a AViiON 5500 with 1 CPU, 64MB RAM, 2nd Ethernet interface, 525MB QIC streamer, no graphics, 7 or 8 binders of DG-UX doc. The mashine is currently not running (no disk) and waiting to be swaped for a DEC 3000. (Anybody interrested in this trade?) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From hansp at aconit.org Tue Sep 18 08:32:09 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 References: <3BA61012.8650.3200F36@localhost> Message-ID: <3BA74CD9.3020205@aconit.org> Brian Knittel wrote: > Good to hear there some other 1130 fans out there! Indeed, I think we are few and far between. As are 1130's themselves! > I should have added that we have ten disk cartridges with our 1130. > One is labeled "IBM Only" and we hope it's a CE disk. We didn't > find any punched card based software other than four IPL (boot) cards. > One is labeled "APLIPL" and we have an APL typeball, so we think > one of the cartridges has APL on it. However, we're a long way from > trying to spin it up to see if the disks are still readable after > what must be 20 years. Sounds real good. I will consult with my friendly IBM engineer who used to work on the beasties as to what the CE disk would be and how to use it. I'd be interested in scans of the IPL cards. Put them on a black background so we can see the holes. I can then reproduce the cards with the handpunches I have available. > We also have the maintenance manuals and schematics, but > no diagnostic software listings. We'd be interested in getting > copies of anything you get scanned or OCR'd, Hans. Well, now that there is a request I will have to make an effort. I take it you are out in California. Perhaps we can arrange a visit next time I'm out your way? Regards, -- HBP From lipo.ml at gmx.at Tue Sep 18 07:57:47 2001 From: lipo.ml at gmx.at (Roland E. Lipovits) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: DEC DESPO-A Transceiver? Message-ID: <9o7gcb$q2o$1@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> Hi, does anybody know something about the DEC DESPO-A BNC Ethernet Transceiver? Its a small box (about 115*60*35 mm) with a BNC connector and a MMJ connector on the otherside. And ther is a cable wich on one side has the MMJ and on the other side a big black connector (don't know the name) which I have seen at token ring MUAs only. I haven't seen those token ring connectors for ethernet, and no BNC connectors on token rings. So I am a little bit confused about the purpose of these boxes. Looks like a ethernet/tokenring bridge but I don't believe this. Regards, Lipo -- Roland E. Lipovits Vienna, Austria From engdahl at cle.ab.com Tue Sep 18 08:13:06 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <20010918034003.10430.qmail@web20110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001c14043$a7b07370$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Doing a web search on "flash DIMM" shows that HP, Xerox, and Lexmark printers use something called Flash DIMM in 2M, 4M, and 8M sizes. Prices are about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on eBay for under $100. Question is, how do you program it, and will it plug into a PC mainboard and do what you'd expect it to? (no, making smoke is not what I meant). -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 11:40 PM > To: classiccmp > Subject: RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers > vs. Classic Computing) > > > > --- Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > ...Besides, that's why I suggested a SIMM or DIMM. > > > > Cool idea -- flash on a DIMM. Has anyone ever heard of such a beast? > > Cisco routers have used them in the past, and I have an internet > appliance called a WebPal (StrongARM processor, ISA slot, TV out, > IR keyboard, yadda, yadda) with a 1Mb FLASH DIMM with a blank spot. > Someone has ported Linux to it, but you need the 2Mb DIMM and an > external programmer to get a kernel into it. > > -ethan > > > __________________________________________________ > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? > Donate cash, emergency relief information > http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > From pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com Tue Sep 18 08:18:07 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs In-Reply-To: <200109172300.f8HN0e520050@narnia.int.dittman.net> from Eric Dittman at "Sep 17, 2001 06:00:40 pm" Message-ID: <200109181318.f8IDI7f08875@bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com> > My Mac IIfx used a ROM SIMM. The IIfx was the last Mac I ever > bought, too, after the way Apple treated IIfx owners. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ One hell of a Mac, though. I only wish the thing was documented so I could get from Apple OS 7.x and/or A/UX to something like NetBSD on it. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com Tue Sep 18 08:24:22 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: DEC DESPO-A Transceiver? In-Reply-To: <9o7gcb$q2o$1@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> from "Roland E. Lipovits" at "Sep 18, 2001 12:57:47 pm" Message-ID: <200109181324.f8IDOMr08946@bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com> > Hi, > > does anybody know something about the DEC DESPO-A BNC Ethernet > Transceiver? > > Its a small box (about 115*60*35 mm) with a BNC connector and a > MMJ connector on the otherside. And ther is a cable wich on one > side has the MMJ and on the other side a big black connector > (don't know the name) which I have seen at token ring MUAs only. > > I haven't seen those token ring connectors for ethernet, > and no BNC connectors on token rings. So I am a little > bit confused about the purpose of these boxes. Looks like > a ethernet/tokenring bridge but I don't believe this. > > Regards, > Lipo > > -- > Roland E. Lipovits > Vienna, Austria My GUESS is it's either an Ethernet Transceiver that plugs to IBM wired Token Ring Cat 3 cables so you don't have to rewire a site or some kind of DEC Token Ring transceiver. Are you sure it's an MMJ and not an RJ45? Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 18 08:39:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Hardware races References: <006201c13ff2$af3387f0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <001101c14047$54f23660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Something tells me you'll be disappointed if you expect a PDP-whatever to keep up with a 486-66. If you stop and think about it, it's the rate at which a CPU gets in and out of memory that determines how fast it performs, and the memory for which the PDP-series processors were designed was quite a bit different from what was commonly used with a 486DX2. The typical '70's memory had an access time on the order of half-a-microsecond, while the typical '486-motherboard had 10-15 ns CACHE on it, together with 60-70 ns (OK, maybe as slow as 80ns) main memory. That suggests that data can be moved in and out of main memory at a rate of 12.5 MHz x 32bits, or at 50 MB/sec, and into and out of cache at nominally 246 MB/sec, in bursts. I don't know what the PDP's themselves can do, but the fastest memories I remember seeing in quantity during the late '70's were of 45-55 ns speed, though I'm sure there were some smaller faster ones. The popular types were 2147's and 2148's, organized as 4k x1 or 1k x4, respectively, though later in the '80's there were some larger ones of comparable speed avaialble. Were the PDP-types cached? What sorts of caches did they use? The Q-Bus cycle timing, the only real contact I had with the PDP-types, though my experience was with a micro-Vax, certainly didn't suggest it would operate at speeds approaching those cache speeds, so the cache would have had to be on the CPU cards. I'd submit that a fair test would be, say, to calculate the value of PI, or some other task which involves only integer computations, to, say, 250 places, using code written for each processor in assembly language, thereby eliminating the OS or a compiler as an influencing factor. Be sure system functions are turned off while it runs, so only the test process is running, and use system calls only for display and input functions. I'd say a more reasonable test would be a PDP-type against, say, a comparably equipped '286. The last one I used ran at 25 MHz. The most common ones late in their market life ran at 16, and the first ones ran at 6 or 8, depending on what you wanted to spend. In the comparisons I saw run while I was in the aerospace industry, the MicroVax-II compared more or less, with a PC/AT-clone at 12.5 MHz, just for reference, but the PC disk subsystem was much slower than the uVax's so the test was skewed. I've no idea how the uVax-II compared with the 11/34 you have in mind. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie" To: Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 9:33 PM Subject: Hardware races > On another list someone mentioned that a PDP11 ran at about the same > speed as a 486-66. > > I don't have a 486-66 but do have a PDP11/34 in the garage so I > suggested that if a 486-66 could be found we could have a race. > > I tested the capacitors on the weekend and they were OK, still need > to test the RL01 drives and get them hooked up. > > From the cables in the cabinet and the terminator on one of the drives > I'm guessing that they are daisy chained. > > > A few questions remain. > > What would be the best way to test the Power supply it is currently > off the chassis, does it need to be connected for testing? > > Any suggestions for a fair race? > > > > Recent additions: Unisys PW2 (Unisys ICON NETWORK), Microcom (apple > clone), SHARP PC4500 > > > > Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) > > From emu at ecubics.com Tue Sep 18 08:48:14 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000001c14043$a7b07370$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BA7509E.EF8633B@ecubics.com> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Doing a web search on "flash DIMM" shows that HP, Xerox, and Lexmark > printers use something called Flash DIMM in 2M, 4M, and 8M sizes. Prices are > about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on eBay for under > $100. Question is, how do you program it, and will it plug into a PC > mainboard and do what you'd expect it to? (no, making smoke is not what I > meant). > Looking at this prices, what happened to the old 3.5" floppy drive ? If you can start a complete/compressed linux/firewall from there, should be enough to start an emulator. And, BTW, not all of the pc motherboard chip sets supports FLASH DIMM (any ?), so you're stuck then with some motherboards. cheers From pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com Tue Sep 18 09:16:13 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Hardware races In-Reply-To: <001101c14047$54f23660$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Sep 18, 2001 07:39:25 am" Message-ID: <200109181416.f8IEGEK09274@bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com> > Something tells me you'll be disappointed if you expect a PDP-whatever to keep > up with a 486-66. If you stop and think about it, it's the rate at which a CPU > gets in and out of memory that determines how fast it performs, and the memory > for which the PDP-series processors were designed was quite a bit different from > what was commonly used with a 486DX2. > > Dick > The PDP11/34 was more in line with the 286/12 or 16 for speed than the 486/66. A 486/66 should be able to emulate an 11/70 at pretty close to the 11/70 speed... IIRC an 11/780 was 1 VUPS and 11/750 was about .6 VUPS and 11/730 was about .3 VUPS. The 11/34A was about the same speed as the 11/73O IIRC. I seem to think UNIX on my 486/66 dhrystoned faster than the 8650 VAX which seems to lead me to think the emulation should run close to, if not faster than the real 11/70. John Wilson's E11 ran like lightening on an old 486/75 laptop I had (which just died). I think you could get 11/34 speed out of a '386 box. Bill From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:23:00 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Final numbers on Apple IIgs computers for sale Message-ID: Hello all, First let me say that I hope all of you are all right, and that your lives are as normal as possible given the recent events. I know it's hard to think about old computers at a time like this, but I did at least want to let you all know what was happening. Obviously, if there are any delays in our transactions, I certainly understand ... Take care of what's important first.... Bear in mind that these systems are school surplus. They WILL need cleaning, and many have stickers, sticker residue, magic marker writing, etc. They are all in good physical condition (no rust, no cracks in the cases, etc.), but they all need to be cleaned. Here are the final counts on the IIgs stuff... These are all tested and working: - Qty. 14 ROM 3 IIgs CPUs, with power cord, NO internal cards. - Qty. 8 ROM 01 IIgs CPUs, with power cord, and memory expansion card (only one bank full on each). - Qty. 22 5.25" Floppy Drives, Model # A9M0107, with cable - Qty. 23 3.5" Floppy Drives, Model # A9M0106, with cable - Qty. 12 AppleColor RGB Monitors, Model A2M6014, with power cable AND signal cable (see below ... more available) - Qty. 9 mice, with ADB connector, labelled as Model # A9M0331 - Qty. 7 mice, labelled "Apple Desktop Bus", "Family # G5431" - Qty. 3 Apple Desktop Bus keyboards with cable (see more below) - Qty. 2 Macintosh LC II CPUs, with power cable - Qty. 2 Macintosh Color RGB Monitors, with power AND signal cables - Qty. 2 Apple IIc computers, with power supplies The following are untested: - Qty. 5 Imagewriter II printers, with power AND data cables - Qty. 17 Apple Desktop Bus keyboards and cables I am willing to test the remaining keyboards, and the Imagewriters if people want them. I also can get more monitors, but again, I only want to lug them here and test them if people want them. Please, even if you have responded before, respond with a specific list of what you want. Don't tell me "a complete system", because I have no idea what that means (mouse? 1 floppy? 2 floppies? ROM version? Monitor?). BE SPECIFIC. The two types of mice listed work with the IIgs, but I don't know if either is "correct" in that I don't know which version shipped with the IIgs. Because some items are limited in supply, if I get more offers than items, I will throw names into a hat to decide who gets what. PLEASE INCLUDE A ZIP CODE OR COUNTRY WITH YOUR RESPONSE so I can determine shipping costs... Once you respond with a want list, I will determine if I can fulfill it, then weigh everything, and get a shipping quote. In terms of money and shipment ... Payment must be in US funds, and I accept PayPal, or Money Order (International Money Order for overseas). The cost of each order is a minimum of $5.00 + "shipping". What this means is that a single cable will cost at least $5.00. A complete system will cost at least $5.00. Anything over $5.00 is up to you, bearing in mind that ALL proceeds will be donated back to the school I got the computers from. There is no special priority given to people who donate more money. "Shipping" includes actual postage (USPS from Westminster, MA USA 01473), plus actual cost of boxes and packaging (no more than $5.00, even for a complete system). Monitors and printers will be shipped in SEPARATE boxes from CPUs. If you come to my house to pick them up, you can "cherry-pick" for the best cosmetic condition. Thanks! Rich B. From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Sep 18 09:31:23 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: Final numbers on Apple IIgs computers for sale Message-ID: Sorry to reply to myself.... PLEASE send all replies OFF-LIST for the IIgs systems posted previously .... Thanks! Rich B. From lipo.ml at gmx.at Tue Sep 18 09:54:23 2001 From: lipo.ml at gmx.at (Roland E. Lipovits) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: DEC DESPO-A Transceiver? References: <9o7gcb$q2o$1@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> <200109181324.f8IDOMr08946@bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <9o7n6v$frm$3@phoenix.lipo.at0.net> Bill Pechter wrote: >> Its a small box (about 115*60*35 mm) with a BNC connector and a >> MMJ connector on the otherside. And ther is a cable wich on one (...) >Are you sure it's an MMJ and not an RJ45? It's definitly no RJ45, and it has the clip not in the middle, i.e. looks loke MMJ. If there is "something" that looks like MMJ but isn't MMJ it might be this "something". Regards, Lipo -- Roland E. Lipovits Vienna, Austria From engdahl at cle.ab.com Tue Sep 18 10:59:37 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <3BA7509E.EF8633B@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <000701c1405a$ead13ce0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > sizes. Prices are > > about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on > > > Looking at this prices, what happened to the old 3.5" floppy drive ? > If you can start a complete/compressed linux/firewall from there, should > be enough to start an emulator. > And, BTW, not all of the pc motherboard chip sets supports FLASH DIMM > (any ?), > so you're stuck then with some motherboards. Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a machine that was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably not worth the cost and hassle of the flash. Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode from a floppy? Also, that way you could have one microcode floppy for each classic architecture. I think that my emulator idea can be made to work under Win32. It appears there are facilities allowing an application program to catch access violations. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 11:28:11 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs In-Reply-To: from "Bill Pechter" at Sep 18, 2001 09:18:07 AM Message-ID: <200109181628.f8IGSBv21967@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > My Mac IIfx used a ROM SIMM. The IIfx was the last Mac I ever > > bought, too, after the way Apple treated IIfx owners. > > One hell of a Mac, though. I only wish the thing was documented so > I could get from Apple OS 7.x and/or A/UX to something like NetBSD on > it. Apple's refusal to document the system was one problem. Another problem I had (that I started griping about during the A/UX 3.0 beta test) was Apple wouldn't let the engineers support the GPi pin on the serial ports under A/UX because not all Macs had the GPi pin. I continuously pointed out that all Macs that could run A/UX *DID* have the GPi pin, and they could allow this to be a configuration option. Without the GPi pin there was no way to have secure dial-in and hardware flow control, which means you really didn't want to have a dial-in connection on your A/UX system. There's a lot of other ways Apple mistreated IIfx owners. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmcmanis at netapp.com Tue Sep 18 11:53:41 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <000701c1405a$ead13ce0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> References: <3BA7509E.EF8633B@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010918094808.00a08490@mcmanis.com> >Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a machine that >was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably not worth the >cost and hassle of the flash. Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode >from a floppy? Yes, the VAX 11/780 does. Actually a more compelling idea for me would be to reverse engineer the processor on a modern disk drive (like a SCSI drive) and then reprogram the disk controller boards firmware such that the disk thought it was a PDP-11. It would be fairly straight forward (but certainly not trivial) to construct a communication protocol for this. Interestingly, the DEC DSSI drives are nearly already "there" when it comes to this sort of scenario. There already is a communications protocol that lets you "log in" to the drive and talk to a variety of programs that are stored in the Disk drives flash. It may actually have a real PDP-11 on it, I don't know who might know what all the parts are on a DSSI drive. --Chuck From emu at ecubics.com Tue Sep 18 12:01:21 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:38 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000701c1405a$ead13ce0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BA77DE1.2E9B5E7B@ecubics.com> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > sizes. Prices are > > > about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on > > > > > Looking at this prices, what happened to the old 3.5" floppy drive ? > > If you can start a complete/compressed linux/firewall from there, should > > be enough to start an emulator. > > And, BTW, not all of the pc motherboard chip sets supports FLASH DIMM > > (any ?), > > so you're stuck then with some motherboards. > > Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a machine that > was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably not worth the > cost and hassle of the flash. And, what I forgot to write is that the flash is slower anyway, so you copy the software from flash to *RAM anyway. > Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode > from a floppy? yes > Also, that way you could have one microcode floppy for each classic > architecture. works only if you have the OS on the floppy too. > I think that my emulator idea can be made to work under Win32. Sorry, I missed that. What is so special about your idea ? (No offense, just missed you posting I guess ;-)) > It appears there are facilities allowing an application > program to catch access violations. Sure. But it is easier to check this yourself. cheers From Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu Tue Sep 18 12:11:27 2001 From: Marion.Bates at dartmouth.edu (Marion Bates) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Worm/Virus alert Message-ID: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Hey all, Sorry bout the spam (and sorry if you already know about this) but I figured you folks might want to know to watch out for a new Code Red-esque worm that's running rampant...below is from SlashDot. http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/18/151203.shtml -- MB ************** New (More) Annoying Microsoft Worm Hits Net Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday September 18, @10:10AM from the what-a-pain-in-the-arse dept. A new worm seems to be running rampant Unlike Code Red, it attempts to hit boxes with many different exploits (including what looks like an attempt to exploit boxes still rooted by Code Red). It looks like each IP tries 16 attempts on its neighbors. There is also a new mail worm mailing WAV files or something with bits of what appears to be the registry... it may or may not be related. Got any words on this? Shut down those windows boxes and stop opening attachments. And make that 21. Got another one while writing this story. All my hits are coming from 208.n.n.n (where I am) I'm sure it'll keep moving to nearby boxes. Here are examples of the requests it's sending: GET /scripts/..%%35%63../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir GET /msadc/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c/..%c1%1c../..%c1%1c../ ..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir GET /_vti_bin/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir While writing this story I was hit a total of 4 times, 16 GET attempts per attack. In only 4 minutes. Also of interest, My desktop has now been hit about 500 times today, all from 208.x.x.x IPs. This might be really bad. I still haven't read anything about this anywhere else, so you heard it here first ;) Update: Web servers compromised by this worm apparently attach a "readme.eml" to all web pages served... and due to a bug in IE5, it will automatically execute the file! Yay Internet Explorer! From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 18 12:28:50 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: HP Cassette Tapes In-Reply-To: <200109180605.f8I65ts98050@daemonweed.reanimators.org> References: <3BA6AE64.6C0E736E@rain.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20010918132850.014f5838@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Frank McConnell may have mentioned these words: >Marvin Johnston wrote: >> I just received about 80 HP Cassette tapes today, and have no idea what >> these things might be used on or for. They appear to be about DC-100 >> size and have names such as "64850-10005 Z8 asm/lnk", "64815-10002 68000 >> Pascal Compiler", "64816-10005 Z8001/2 Pascal Compiler", "Z80 Emul/Asm", >> etc. Anyone have any idea of what machine these things might be used on? > >HP 64000 cross-development system. Some used DC100 tapes as >distribution media, others used 5.25" floppies. Holey-Macaroni! I *have* a HP64000 w/a tape drive, but no means to boot the sucker... (it booted off of another HP64000 thru it's own network) and it has the 6800 emulation board (amongst other things) in it. Someday I hope to have the machine fully working... If those tapes ever need a home, keep me in mind! Thanks, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig. If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From root at jade.tseinc.com Tue Sep 18 12:48:24 2001 From: root at jade.tseinc.com (Charlie Root) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Worm/Virus alert In-Reply-To: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <200109181748.MAA19018@jade.tseinc.com> The virus mentioned above appears to be the new (just identified this morning) nimda viroworm. Right now we're expreriencing 8 to 10 times our normal volume of traffic due to probes from infected machines. We're not infected, but the machines out on the net that ARE are wreaking havorc everywhere. Jay West From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Sep 18 12:52:44 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <10109171846.ZM11951@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 17, 9:42, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > Have you ever soldered down a flash ROM? Not fun. I used 36 gauge > self-strip > > magnet wire and tweezers under a 40X stereoscope. I'd rather buy one > > prebuilt if available. If you build you own, it might be hard getting the > > interfacing and timing compatible with DRAMs. > > The ones I've seen have been regular SMD (0.5" pitch) devices which are not > too hard to do with hot air, or are ordinary DIL (0.1" pitch). The last > one I soldered was a DIL chip. > > Timing might be a problem; I have almost no idea what access time DIMMs are > supposed to be but I expect it's faster than SIMMs. SIMMs are usually in > the 60ns-120ns range, and it's not too hard to get FLASH or EPROM in that > range too. You'd just need to demultiplex the addresses (latch the > addresses presented on the first part of the memory cycle). Of course, > modern motherboards use DIMMs. > > > Of course it would be feasible to implement a PDP-11 emulator in the BIOS > > ROM, it just would not be as fast as the one I'm thinking of. Back in the > > days of QEMM/386, I remember allocating 64K for the BIOS ROM. I haven't > > really looked that closely at a BIOS ROM since then. I was wondering if > > modern mainboards had larger ROMs, or if they still are stuck with 64K. > > I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall seeing at least 128KB. Not > megabytes, though! Newer motherboards have at least 128K, but if you completely replace the BIOS you will be stuck with the ugly,nasty,unportable mess of initializing the chipset. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > Peter Wallace From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 18 12:39:34 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Hardware races In-Reply-To: <006201c13ff2$af3387f0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> from "Mike Kenzie" at Sep 17, 1 11:33:20 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2446 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010918/09bfd649/attachment.ksh From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 13:20:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 18, 2001 09:53:41 AM Message-ID: <200109181820.f8IIKRV22188@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a machine that > >was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably not worth the > >cost and hassle of the flash. Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode > >from a floppy? > > Yes, the VAX 11/780 does. I remember an early brochure for the 11/750 talking about how it would be easy to load custom microcode to emulator other processors. This wasn't in later brochures or product descriptions for the 11/750 that I've seen. > Interestingly, the DEC DSSI drives are nearly already "there" when it comes > to this sort of scenario. There already is a communications protocol that > lets you "log in" to the drive and talk to a variety of programs that are > stored in the Disk drives flash. It may actually have a real PDP-11 on it, > I don't know who might know what all the parts are on a DSSI drive. I don't think the DSSI drives have a PDP-11, but they are pseudo-CI. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From claudew at videotron.ca Tue Sep 18 13:53:29 2001 From: claudew at videotron.ca (Claude.W) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: To garbage or ask for it: Commodore printer MPS801, TIs, Commodore 1525, DEC LA50, TRS80 Mod II exp box etc... Message-ID: <006301c14073$34db79a0$0200a8c0@gamerclaude> Hi Garbage day tommorow and I will be scrapping more stuff I have accumulated too much of... This all going to charity (they probably wont want this) or garbage in about 24 hours or pick it up if you want it. I dont wanna start packing -- you have to have someone to pick this up. I know this is quite a long shot since I am in Montreal, Canada but who knows... A shame because most was cleaned and is working....most of this is stuff I have more than one of or just no space for... I anticipate more stuff getting junked so anybody with a large car or van that can pass by here can probably fill it up. MPS801 Commodore printer Commodore 1525 printer DEC LA50 printer TRS80 model II "8" floppy expansion box" with no drives Compaq portable II TI994a beige version TI994a black version Several MAC Plus and SE (no se-30s) Apple IIc Several C64 and Apple books some in french Some C64s and 1541 drives Untested 1084S monitor Stuff I cant see myself throwing in garbage but would like to see go to a good home : several Atari STs and Amiga 500s... Claude http://www.members.tripod.com/computer_collector From pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com Tue Sep 18 13:46:14 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010918094808.00a08490@mcmanis.com> from Chuck McManis at "Sep 18, 2001 09:53:41 am" Message-ID: <200109181846.f8IIkFJ10143@bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com> > > >Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a machine that > >was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably not worth the > >cost and hassle of the flash. Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode > >from a floppy? > > Yes, the VAX 11/780 does. > --Chuck Actually much of the 11/780 microcode is in rom. The stuff loaded from RX01 is mostly bug fixes to the rom code. The patches went into the Writeable Control Store board. The 11/785 went to completely RAM loaded microcode. The 11/780 did have an optional second User Writeable Control Store board. -Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From dtwright at uiuc.edu Tue Sep 18 13:46:54 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Worm/Virus alert In-Reply-To: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>; from Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:11:27PM -0400 References: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <20010918134654.A2434638@uiuc.edu> OK, I know this is not exactly on-topic, but I thought it was ridiculous enough to share. Here's what I get from the logs on my IRIX web server running apache: > egrep "scripts/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l 7273 > egrep "msadc/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l 809 > egrep "_vti.*/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l 811 so, that's 8,893 bogus MS exploit requests. note too, that those numbers grew by about 5% in about 5 minutes. Damn, I'm glad I don't run a windows machine :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From curt at atari-history.com Tue Sep 18 13:54:04 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Worm/Virus alert References: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <001701c14073$4a34de40$c2609040@syzygy2> This is a useful and helpful spam.... well worth it, thanks for the heads up... Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marion Bates" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:11 PM Subject: Worm/Virus alert > Hey all, > > Sorry bout the spam (and sorry if you already know about this) but I figured you folks might want to know to watch out for a new Code Red-esque worm that's running rampant...below is from SlashDot. http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/18/151203.shtml > > -- MB > > ************** > New (More) Annoying Microsoft Worm Hits Net > Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday September 18, @10:10AM > from the what-a-pain-in-the-arse dept. > A new worm seems to be running rampant Unlike Code Red, it attempts to hit boxes with many different exploits (including what looks like an attempt to exploit boxes still rooted by Code Red). It looks like each IP tries 16 attempts on its neighbors. There is also a new mail worm mailing WAV files or something with bits of what appears to be the registry... it may or may not be related. Got any words on this? Shut down those windows boxes and stop opening attachments. And make that 21. Got another one while writing this story. All my hits are coming from 208.n.n.n (where I am) I'm sure it'll keep moving to nearby boxes. > > Here are examples of the requests it's sending: > > GET /scripts/..%%35%63../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir > GET /msadc/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c/..%c1%1c../..%c1%1c../ ..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir > GET /_vti_bin/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir > > > While writing this story I was hit a total of 4 times, 16 GET attempts per attack. In only 4 minutes. Also of interest, My desktop has now been hit about 500 times today, all from 208.x.x.x IPs. This might be really bad. I still haven't read anything about this anywhere else, so you heard it here first ;) > > Update: Web servers compromised by this worm apparently attach a "readme.eml" to all web pages served... and due to a bug in IE5, it will automatically execute the file! Yay Internet Explorer! From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 18 14:10:35 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Worm/Virus alert In-Reply-To: <20010918134654.A2434638@uiuc.edu> References: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU>; from Marion.Bates@dartmouth.edu on Tue, Sep 18, 2001 at 01:11:27PM -0400 <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: >by about 5% in about 5 minutes. Damn, I'm glad I don't run a windows >>machine I just told my wife not to use her Windows laptop for email, and to use the one VT420 to access OpenVMS instead (thankfully I'd already built her an account, even if she's never used it). Looks like I've got to start figuring out how to switch her laptop to Linux. She's ready anyway, when non-computer people start wanting to go to Linux you know things are bad. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From engdahl at cle.ab.com Tue Sep 18 14:14:42 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <3BA77DE1.2E9B5E7B@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> The idea is to write PDP-11 microcode for the PC platform, rather running an "emulator" under Windows or whatever. The Pentium would be viewed as the micro-architecture, the PDP-11 as the real machine. It would be table driven and fully expanded, using the PC memory rather extravagantly. You should be able to emulate simple instructions at the rate of about 4~8 Pentium opcodes for every PDP-11 opcode. If you rely on the Pentium MMU to trap accesses to the I/O page, you don't have to check for non-memory accesses from within the CPU model. The trap routines would emulate PDP-11 I/O, mapping it onto the PC hardware, rather than onto file I/O as in an emulator. The Pentium MMU can also be used to emulate the PDP-11 MMU. Map the PDP-11 registers onto Pentium registers, and never save them in memory except on a trap. This gives you a very, very fast PDP-11, IBM 1130, or whatever. If you can figure out a way to cause the machine to boot this "microcode" at powerup instead of Microsoft Wincrash, I argue that you could legitimately call this a PDP-11. I think I remember hearing that the IBM 360 VM OS did this. It seems a clean way of preserving classic architecture without having to mess with decayed disk drives, and without the compromises imposed by emulation. Sort of like rebuilding the Parthenon with injection-molded faux-marble columns and friezes. ;-) -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:01 PM > To: classiccmp > Subject: Re: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers > vs. Classic Computing) > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > > sizes. Prices are > > > > about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on > > > > > > > Looking at this prices, what happened to the old 3.5" floppy drive ? > > > If you can start a complete/compressed linux/firewall from > there, should > > > be enough to start an emulator. > > > And, BTW, not all of the pc motherboard chip sets supports FLASH DIMM > > > (any ?), > > > so you're stuck then with some motherboards. > > > > Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a > machine that > > was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably > not worth the > > cost and hassle of the flash. > > And, what I forgot to write is that the flash is slower anyway, so you > copy the > software from flash to *RAM anyway. > > > Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode > > from a floppy? > > yes > > > Also, that way you could have one microcode floppy for each classic > > architecture. > > works only if you have the OS on the floppy too. > > > I think that my emulator idea can be made to work under Win32. > > Sorry, I missed that. What is so special about your idea ? > (No offense, just missed you posting I guess ;-)) > > > It appears there are facilities allowing an application > > program to catch access violations. > > Sure. But it is easier to check this yourself. > > cheers > From engdahl at cle.ab.com Tue Sep 18 14:34:19 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010918094808.00a08490@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <000e01c14078$e8e92050$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chuck McManis > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 12:54 PM > > Actually a more compelling idea for me would be to reverse engineer the > processor on a modern disk drive (like a SCSI drive) and then > reprogram the > disk controller boards firmware such that the disk thought it was > a PDP-11. > > --Chuck Cute idea. Aren't the newer IDE drives bus masters? The CPU on the drive could request the bus, kick the Pentium off and put it to sleep permanently, and *be* the PDP-11. You could also build an adapter that allows the IDE drive to slide into the first slot on a Qbus backplane and be the CPU. Possible? -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From d.quigley at ntlworld.com Tue Sep 18 14:55:36 2001 From: d.quigley at ntlworld.com (d.quigley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Social Studies, mature student. Message-ID: <000a01c1407b$e2d5c4e0$7292fc3e@dbcw10j> Can anyone give me any information on the definition of the word ' family '. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010918/72d2007a/attachment.html From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 18 15:02:18 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010918094808.00a08490@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <200109182002.WAA29805@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Sep, Chuck McManis wrote: >> Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode from a floppy? > Yes, the VAX 11/780 does. But only a part of it. I know the person that desined the data path unit of the VAX11/780 CPU. He told me that most (3/4?) of the microcode is in ROM, with only one RAM bit per micro code word. That is the "patch bit". If this bit is set, the sequencer jumes to the RAM microcode. With this technic you can get patchable / loadable microcode without the need of a 100% (fast and therefore expensive) RAM microcode memory. An other option would be a Symbolics. (The old lisp machines.) Last week a friend and I brought 5 Symbolics 3640 / 3670 back to live. It seams to me that the CPUs of this odd machines are huge bit slice processors. I think it would be possible to turn such a machine into nearly everything with the right microcode. Unfortunately a Symbolics machine is much more rare then a PDP11. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From emu at ecubics.com Tue Sep 18 15:20:55 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BA7ACA7.BE5A4D2@ecubics.com> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > The idea is to write PDP-11 microcode for the PC platform, rather running an > "emulator" under Windows or whatever. The Pentium would be viewed as the > micro-architecture, the PDP-11 as the real machine. It would be table driven > and fully expanded, using the PC memory rather extravagantly. You should be > able to emulate simple instructions at the rate of about 4~8 Pentium opcodes > for every PDP-11 opcode. If you rely on the Pentium MMU to trap accesses to > the I/O page, you don't have to check for non-memory accesses from within > the CPU model. The trap routines would emulate PDP-11 I/O, mapping it onto > the PC hardware, rather than onto file I/O as in an emulator. The Pentium > MMU can also be used to emulate the PDP-11 MMU. Map the PDP-11 registers > onto Pentium registers, and never save them in memory except on a trap. This > gives you a very, very fast PDP-11, IBM 1130, or whatever. If you can figure > out a way to cause the machine to boot this "microcode" at powerup instead > of Microsoft Wincrash, I argue that you could legitimately call this a > PDP-11. OK. But, this microcode has to have an OS around. because: - how to use the MMU ? - you need access to serial ports ? - disks - tapes - ethernet - etc. Or do you like to program this stuff all by yourself ? Still, definitely not a Windoze, but somekind of ukernel. Anyway, start with it, and we see one day ;-) cheers & have fun, emanuel From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 15:56:21 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors Message-ID: <200109182056.f8IKuLU22561@narnia.int.dittman.net> DEC used embedded PDP-11 processors in many different places. There's the console for some of the VAX systems, and I've read some of the DECsystem-10 or DECSYSTEM-20 systems used a PDP-11 as a console system. Other uses of the PDP-11 that I know of are the HSCxx controllers and some of the printers. Where else did the PDP-11 get embedded? I know the HSZxx/HSDxx/HSJxx controllers used an Intel i960 processor, so there's no PDP-11 there. And speaking of the HSCxx controllers, are the PDP-11 controllers customized or is there a standard QBUS or UNIBUS system in there? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jruschme at Mac.com Tue Sep 18 15:55:51 2001 From: jruschme at Mac.com (John Ruschmeyer) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: IBM 1130 In-Reply-To: <200109181950.OAA06188@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:00:34 -0700 > From: "Brian Knittel" > Subject: Re: IBM 1130 > > Good to hear there some other 1130 fans out there! > > I should have added that we have ten disk cartridges with our 1130. > One is labeled "IBM Only" and we hope it's a CE disk. We didn't > find any punched card based software other than four IPL (boot) cards. > One is labeled "APLIPL" and we have an APL typeball, so we think > one of the cartridges has APL on it. However, we're a long way from > trying to spin it up to see if the disks are still readable after > what must be 20 years. APL/1130... Lord, that brings back a couple of memories. FWIW, the language is very similar to APL/360. The nasty part was the special symbols. The console keyboard (basically a 029 keyboard) was mapped into three shift states (3 symbols per keycap) with the shift state being indicated by banks of front panel lights. IIRC, make sure to make lots of copies of the APLIPL card as my experience was that the reader/punch would occasionally munch it. Also IIRC, the correct name for the IPL card is a "Cold Start" card. > We also have the maintenance manuals and schematics, but > no diagnostic software listings. We'd be interested in getting > copies of anything you get scanned or OCR'd, Hans. > Norm is setting up a boffo website for it all. A grand > opening announcement will be coming soon! Can't wait to see it... <<>> From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Sep 18 16:05:12 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Worm/Virus alert References: <49142760@dasher.Dartmouth.EDU> Message-ID: <00a101c14085$9c66dee0$030101ac@boll.casema.net> It started coming in at my linux webserver at 15:55 local time (the Netherlands) that is 14:55 UTC Fortunately it doesn't do anything usefull exept that it cloggs up my access_log If this is the way of the future... MS*cks driven webservers are doomed! Besides this newbie I had about 1500 Code Red tries in August, and about 800+ uptil now in September. Code-Red was just leveling off a bit. below a snip from my access_log: (sorry for the wrapping) 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:24:50 +0200] "GET /scripts/root.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 280 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:24:51 +0200] "GET /MSADC/root.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 278 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:24:52 +0200] "GET /c/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 288 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:24:52 +0200] "GET /d/winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 288 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:24:53 +0200] "GET /scripts/..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 302 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:24:57 +0200] "GET /_vti_bin/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 319 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:25:01 +0200] "GET /_mem_bin/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 319 4.18.92.2 - - [18/Sep/2001:19:25:05 +0200] "GET /msadc/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c/..%c1%1c../..%c1%1c../..%c1%1c../winnt/system 32/cmd.exe?/c+dir HTTP/1.0" 404 335 Regards, Sipke de Wal ---------------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx ---------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: Marion Bates To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 7:11 PM Subject: Worm/Virus alert > Hey all, > > Sorry bout the spam (and sorry if you already know about this) but I figured you folks might want to know to watch out for a new Code Red-esque worm that's running rampant...below is from SlashDot. http://slashdot.org/articles/01/09/18/151203.shtml > > -- MB > > ************** > New (More) Annoying Microsoft Worm Hits Net > Posted by CmdrTaco on Tuesday September 18, @10:10AM > from the what-a-pain-in-the-arse dept. > A new worm seems to be running rampant Unlike Code Red, it attempts to hit boxes with many different exploits (including what looks like an attempt to exploit boxes still rooted by Code Red). It looks like each IP tries 16 attempts on its neighbors. There is also a new mail worm mailing WAV files or something with bits of what appears to be the registry... it may or may not be related. Got any words on this? Shut down those windows boxes and stop opening attachments. And make that 21. Got another one while writing this story. All my hits are coming from 208.n.n.n (where I am) I'm sure it'll keep moving to nearby boxes. > > Here are examples of the requests it's sending: > > GET /scripts/..%%35%63../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir > GET /msadc/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c/..%c1%1c../..%c1%1c../ ..%c1%1c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir > GET /_vti_bin/..%255c../..%255c../..%255c../winnt/system32/cmd.exe?/c+dir > > > While writing this story I was hit a total of 4 times, 16 GET attempts per attack. In only 4 minutes. Also of interest, My desktop has now been hit about 500 times today, all from 208.x.x.x IPs. This might be really bad. I still haven't read anything about this anywhere else, so you heard it here first ;) > > Update: Web servers compromised by this worm apparently attach a "readme.eml" to all web pages served... and due to a bug in IE5, it will automatically execute the file! Yay Internet Explorer! From sipke at wxs.nl Tue Sep 18 16:11:14 2001 From: sipke at wxs.nl (Sipke de Wal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Social Studies, mature student. References: <000a01c1407b$e2d5c4e0$7292fc3e@dbcw10j> Message-ID: <00d701c14086$73b01740$030101ac@boll.casema.net> The Social or Digital interpretation ?? Sipke de Wal --------------------------------------------------------- http://xgistor.ath.cx --------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: d.quigley To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 9:55 PM Subject: Social Studies, mature student. Can anyone give me any information on the definition of the word ' family '. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010918/a6c0071e/attachment.html From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Tue Sep 18 16:15:55 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Worm/Virus alert Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722575E@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > OK, I know this is not exactly on-topic, but I thought it was > ridiculous enough to share. > > Here's what I get from the logs on my IRIX web server running apache: > > > egrep "scripts/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > 7273 > > > egrep "msadc/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > 809 > > > egrep "_vti.*/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > 811 > > so, that's 8,893 bogus MS exploit requests. note too, that those numbers grew > by about 5% in about 5 minutes. Damn, I'm glad I don't run a windows machine > :) We do, and it isn't causing us any more trouble than *nix servers. 'Coz we patch. Surely the *nix sysadmins spend as much time writing Perl scripts as we do patching MS bugs... ;-) -dq From foo at siconic.com Tue Sep 18 16:21:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Worm/Virus alert In-Reply-To: <20010918134654.A2434638@uiuc.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > OK, I know this is not exactly on-topic, but I thought it was ridiculous > enough to share. > > Here's what I get from the logs on my IRIX web server running apache: > > > egrep "scripts/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > 7273 > > > egrep "msadc/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > 809 > > > egrep "_vti.*/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > 811 My counts are: 2271 271 281 What a joke. If Microsoft isn't already reviled, despised, hated, etc. for continuing to put out such shit software, then what the hell is everyone waiting for? We shouldn't be going after bin Laden, we should be going after Bill Gates! Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1560.monmouth.com Tue Sep 18 16:59:25 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1560.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: <200109182056.f8IKuLU22561@narnia.int.dittman.net> from Eric Dittman at "Sep 18, 2001 03:56:21 pm" Message-ID: <200109182159.f8ILxPg10907@bg-tc-ppp1560.monmouth.com> > DEC used embedded PDP-11 processors in many different places. There's > the console for some of the VAX systems, and I've read some of the > DECsystem-10 or DECSYSTEM-20 systems used a PDP-11 as a console system. > Other uses of the PDP-11 that I know of are the HSCxx controllers and > some of the printers. Where else did the PDP-11 get embedded? I know > the HSZxx/HSDxx/HSJxx controllers used an Intel i960 processor, so > there's no PDP-11 there. > > And speaking of the HSCxx controllers, are the PDP-11 controllers > customized or is there a standard QBUS or UNIBUS system in there? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ My last DEC Field Service experience was with HSC-50's. They had their own bus (no name known by field service). I thought they went from F11 CPUs to J11 CPUs in the later ones (HSC70). I wondered if they ever used 78032 (uVaxII chips) in some of them. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 18 17:03:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Worm/Virus alert In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >What a joke. If Microsoft isn't already reviled, despised, hated, etc. >for continuing to put out such shit software, then what the hell is >everyone waiting for? It could all be part of a master plan...use their crappy software to showcase problems with current networking protocals and such and then use it as an excuse to introduce a 'better' proprietary protocal...one not available for licensing to other platforms. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 18 17:09:48 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: <200109182056.f8IKuLU22561@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109182209.AAA00282@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > Where else did the PDP-11 get embedded? The RQDX3 may be the most popular example. It has a T11 chip on it. (The 40 pin DIP labeled 21-17311, right Emu?) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From curt at atari-history.com Tue Sep 18 17:18:35 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: OT: Re: Worm/Virus alert References: Message-ID: <004301c1408f$dbd2f0a0$c2609040@syzygy2> Maybe Bill's running one of Bin Laden's Seattle cells!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 5:21 PM Subject: Re: OT: Re: Worm/Virus alert > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Dan Wright wrote: > > > OK, I know this is not exactly on-topic, but I thought it was ridiculous > > enough to share. > > > > Here's what I get from the logs on my IRIX web server running apache: > > > > > egrep "scripts/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > > 7273 > > > > > egrep "msadc/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > > 809 > > > > > egrep "_vti.*/\.\..*" access_log | grep "18/Sep/2001" | wc -l > > 811 > > My counts are: > > 2271 > 271 > 281 > > What a joke. If Microsoft isn't already reviled, despised, hated, etc. > for continuing to put out such shit software, then what the hell is > everyone waiting for? > > We shouldn't be going after bin Laden, we should be going after Bill > Gates! > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > From IVIE at cc.usu.edu Tue Sep 18 17:50:53 2001 From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors Message-ID: <01K8HMKBRCPE9JD3QE@cc.usu.edu> > Where else did the PDP-11 get embedded? There's a T-11 on the RQDX disk controllers. I've also been involved in a couple of projects which embedded complete MicroPDP-11s, but you're not likely to have heard of any of them. Roger Ivie ivie@cc.usu.edu From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 17:54:01 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: from "Bill Pechter" at Sep 18, 2001 05:59:25 PM Message-ID: <200109182254.f8IMs1222848@narnia.int.dittman.net> > My last DEC Field Service experience was with HSC-50's. > They had their own bus (no name known by field service). > I thought they went from F11 CPUs to J11 CPUs in the later ones (HSC70). > > I wondered if they ever used 78032 (uVaxII chips) in some of them. We have HSC95 controllers. I haven't looked inside as they are 24x7, but in the next month I'll be taking two of them out of service (and leaving two just to serve some 3480 and 9-track tape drives). Is the OS RT-11? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 18:19:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: CIQBA Message-ID: <200109182319.f8INJlC22949@narnia.int.dittman.net> Does anyone have a spare CIQBA for sale? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 18 18:38:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computingt In-Reply-To: <200109142025.f8EKPH702853@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > The LK461 has a PS/2 connector. The LK401 has a phone-jack connector. The > LK401 can only be used with a VT2x0/VT3x0/VT4x0 terminal. Well, that's not entirely accurate. There are a wide variety of DEC machines that can use an LK401. Peace... Sridhar From mldrew at drewtech.com Tue Sep 18 19:07:55 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Mike Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs.Classic Computing) References: Message-ID: <3BA7E1DB.82334507@drewtech.com> "Peter C. Wallace" wrote: > On Mon, 17 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > On Sep 17, 9:42, Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > Have you ever soldered down a flash ROM? Not fun. I used 36 gauge > > self-strip > > > magnet wire and tweezers under a 40X stereoscope. I'd rather buy one > > > prebuilt if available. If you build you own, it might be hard getting the > > > interfacing and timing compatible with DRAMs. > > > > The ones I've seen have been regular SMD (0.5" pitch) devices which are not > > too hard to do with hot air, or are ordinary DIL (0.1" pitch). The last > > one I soldered was a DIL chip. > > > > Timing might be a problem; I have almost no idea what access time DIMMs are > > supposed to be but I expect it's faster than SIMMs. SIMMs are usually in > > the 60ns-120ns range, and it's not too hard to get FLASH or EPROM in that > > range too. You'd just need to demultiplex the addresses (latch the > > addresses presented on the first part of the memory cycle). Of course, > > modern motherboards use DIMMs. > > > > > Of course it would be feasible to implement a PDP-11 emulator in the BIOS > > > ROM, it just would not be as fast as the one I'm thinking of. Back in the > > > days of QEMM/386, I remember allocating 64K for the BIOS ROM. I haven't > > > really looked that closely at a BIOS ROM since then. I was wondering if > > > modern mainboards had larger ROMs, or if they still are stuck with 64K. > > > > I don't know for sure, but I seem to recall seeing at least 128KB. Not > > megabytes, though! > > Newer motherboards have at least 128K, but if you completely replace the > BIOS you will be stuck with the ugly,nasty,unportable mess of initializing > the chipset. > Use the expansion ROM provision of the BIOS to take control. This mechanosim is used by video cards.... The rest of the machine is up and running before they scan the BIOS expansion ROMS... Then all you need to do is a simple ISA card. ISA slots are becomming rare on modern machines but not impossible to find... Question, is the PDP-11 MMU similar to the x86 MMU? Wouldn't the MMU functionality have to be in "microcode" to be really compatible? Mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 19:46:58 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: CIQBA In-Reply-To: CIQBA (Eric Dittman) References: <200109182319.f8INJlC22949@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15271.60162.908390.211738@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 18, Eric Dittman wrote: > Does anyone have a spare CIQBA for sale? Heh...me too! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 20:06:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: Re: Embedded PDP-11 Processors (Bill Pechter) References: <200109182056.f8IKuLU22561@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200109182159.f8ILxPg10907@bg-tc-ppp1560.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <15271.61339.268538.114295@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 18, Bill Pechter wrote: > > DEC used embedded PDP-11 processors in many different places. There's > > the console for some of the VAX systems, and I've read some of the > > DECsystem-10 or DECSYSTEM-20 systems used a PDP-11 as a console system. > > Other uses of the PDP-11 that I know of are the HSCxx controllers and > > some of the printers. Where else did the PDP-11 get embedded? I know > > the HSZxx/HSDxx/HSJxx controllers used an Intel i960 processor, so > > there's no PDP-11 there. > > > > And speaking of the HSCxx controllers, are the PDP-11 controllers > > customized or is there a standard QBUS or UNIBUS system in there? > > My last DEC Field Service experience was with HSC-50's. > They had their own bus (no name known by field service). > I thought they went from F11 CPUs to J11 CPUs in the later ones (HSC70). > > I wondered if they ever used 78032 (uVaxII chips) in some of them. Brian Hechinger and I just got a few HSC95s. They've got J11s in them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 18 20:13:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... Message-ID: To all those that wanted to see the pictures of Brian Hechinger and I unloading a truckload of IBM S/390 and DEC VAX equipment (you know who you are), the pictures are up on http://www.users.cloud9.net/~sridhar/mainframe/ Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 20:56:02 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 18, 2001 09:06:35 PM Message-ID: <200109190156.f8J1u2o23269@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Brian Hechinger and I just got a few HSC95s. They've got J11s in > them. Do they have the STI bus, UNIBUS, or QBUS? Can they run standard RT-11? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 18 21:38:26 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> Does anyone on this thread even understand microprogramming? Apparently not. Pentium CPU's can't be microprogrammed, unless your Intel. Even microcode updates cannot replace the basic instruction set. If you write a program in Pentium assembly code to run PDP-11 instructions, you have just written an 'emulator', even if it does not run under windows. But an writing such an emulator is not 'microprogramming'. Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > The idea is to write PDP-11 microcode for the PC platform, rather running an > "emulator" under Windows or whatever. The Pentium would be viewed as the > micro-architecture, the PDP-11 as the real machine. It would be table driven > and fully expanded, using the PC memory rather extravagantly. You should be > able to emulate simple instructions at the rate of about 4~8 Pentium opcodes > for every PDP-11 opcode. If you rely on the Pentium MMU to trap accesses to > the I/O page, you don't have to check for non-memory accesses from within > the CPU model. The trap routines would emulate PDP-11 I/O, mapping it onto > the PC hardware, rather than onto file I/O as in an emulator. The Pentium > MMU can also be used to emulate the PDP-11 MMU. Map the PDP-11 registers > onto Pentium registers, and never save them in memory except on a trap. This > gives you a very, very fast PDP-11, IBM 1130, or whatever. If you can figure > out a way to cause the machine to boot this "microcode" at powerup instead > of Microsoft Wincrash, I argue that you could legitimately call this a > PDP-11. > > I think I remember hearing that the IBM 360 VM OS did this. > > It seems a clean way of preserving classic architecture without having to > mess with decayed disk drives, and without the compromises imposed by > emulation. > > Sort of like rebuilding the Parthenon with injection-molded faux-marble > columns and friezes. ;-) > > -- > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road > Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117, USA > Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:01 PM > > To: classiccmp > > Subject: Re: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers > > vs. Classic Computing) > > > > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > > > > sizes. Prices are > > > > > about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on > > > > > > > > > Looking at this prices, what happened to the old 3.5" floppy drive ? > > > > If you can start a complete/compressed linux/firewall from > > there, should > > > > be enough to start an emulator. > > > > And, BTW, not all of the pc motherboard chip sets supports FLASH DIMM > > > > (any ?), > > > > so you're stuck then with some motherboards. > > > > > > Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a > > machine that > > > was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably > > not worth the > > > cost and hassle of the flash. > > > > And, what I forgot to write is that the flash is slower anyway, so you > > copy the > > software from flash to *RAM anyway. > > > > > Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode > > > from a floppy? > > > > yes > > > > > Also, that way you could have one microcode floppy for each classic > > > architecture. > > > > works only if you have the OS on the floppy too. > > > > > I think that my emulator idea can be made to work under Win32. > > > > Sorry, I missed that. What is so special about your idea ? > > (No offense, just missed you posting I guess ;-)) > > > > > It appears there are facilities allowing an application > > > program to catch access violations. > > > > Sure. But it is easier to check this yourself. > > > > cheers > > From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Tue Sep 18 21:16:46 2001 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? Message-ID: <20010918.214253.-90261.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> r-- I own an AV-400, and a 412. In addition, I have enough parts to turn my 400 into a AV-530. The 400 could be a single or dual processor machine, mine uses a 'stock' framebuffer. There used to be a page that had some of the NV-RAM info on it; I'll have to see if I have it stashed away somewhere. Do you have the DG/UX install CD/Tape? Jeff On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:47:02 -0400 (EDT) "r. 'bear' stricklin" writes: > > I'm looking for list members who own functioning M88k-series DG > Aviion > machines for a research base, so I can finish resurrecting my 310CD. > I > need some NVRAM information. > > Let me know if you have one; include the model and graphics type, or > at > least as much as you know about either. > > I'll follow up with more information in a week or so, depending on > what > kind of response I get. > > Thanks, I'd really appreciate it it! > > > ok > r. > ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 18 21:49:12 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: Re: Embedded PDP-11 Processors (Eric Dittman) References: <200109190156.f8J1u2o23269@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15272.1960.357813.561602@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 18, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Brian Hechinger and I just got a few HSC95s. They've got J11s in > > them. > > Do they have the STI bus, UNIBUS, or QBUS? Can they run standard RT-11? They look to contain HSC-specific cards. They sorta resemble VAX-11/750 cards in size and card-edge connectors. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From fire at dataflo.net Tue Sep 18 20:51:06 2001 From: fire at dataflo.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Wang 8" disks Message-ID: <200109190252.VAA03075@wddataflo.dataflo.net> good reputation, don't know how expensive... http://www.discinterchange.com/ they claim to be able to read media from the following machines... Wang OIS Wang PC IWP Wang PC running WP Plus Wang VS (WPS Archive Disc) Wang VS Alliance Wang WITA Wang WP Plus High Density Wang WP Plus OIS, Wangwriter Wang WPS Wangwriter Bradley Slavik From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 18 21:51:52 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors In-Reply-To: <200109190156.f8J1u2o23269@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: They look completely proprietary. I doubt they can run RT-11. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > Brian Hechinger and I just got a few HSC95s. They've got J11s in > > them. > > Do they have the STI bus, UNIBUS, or QBUS? Can they run standard RT-11? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 18 22:08:07 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 18, 2001 10:38:26 PM Message-ID: <200109190308.f8J387232392@shell1.aracnet.com> > Does anyone on this thread even understand microprogramming? > > Apparently not. > > Pentium CPU's can't be microprogrammed, unless your Intel. Even microcode > updates cannot replace the basic instruction set. > > If you write a program in Pentium assembly code to run PDP-11 instructions, you > have just written an 'emulator', even if it does not run under windows. > > But an writing such an emulator is not 'microprogramming'. I was wondering about this! In all honesty I don't see any reason to go this low level, by doing this you're making it less portable. Ideally you want something like a stripped Linux or QNX system sitting on top of the hardware, with the system emulator sitting on top of that. If you want to avoid UNIX altogether, just take simh, and set it up so that it's started when the system boots, and you boot all the way up to the OS of your choice. Go one step further and hack simh so that if you shutdown the OS running on top of simh, that it shuts down the host OS. If you want to do hardware, go with FPGA's and reimplement the CPU and controllers like Neil Franklin is trying to do with the PDP-10. The tricky part here of course being the disk and tape controllers (unless you want to write your own device drivers). Zane From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 18 22:06:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... References: Message-ID: <3BA80BCB.7F74D990@internet1.net> Nah, I don't care :-) Anybody notice that there is a set of 390 cards for a Microchannel machine on Ebay? It includes a hotswap drive setup too. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > To all those that wanted to see the pictures of Brian Hechinger and I > unloading a truckload of IBM S/390 and DEC VAX equipment (you know who you > are), the pictures are up on > http://www.users.cloud9.net/~sridhar/mainframe/ > > Peace... Sridhar From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 18 22:16:06 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:39 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... References: Message-ID: <3BA80DF6.32C982FB@internet1.net> Which one of you is the nut on the fork lift, with the big Vax 8700? :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > To all those that wanted to see the pictures of Brian Hechinger and I > unloading a truckload of IBM S/390 and DEC VAX equipment (you know who you > are), the pictures are up on > http://www.users.cloud9.net/~sridhar/mainframe/ > > Peace... Sridhar From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 18 22:28:18 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010918202552.00be29a0@postoffice.pacbell.net> At 09:13 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote: >To all those that wanted to see the pictures of Brian Hechinger and I >unloading a truckload of IBM S/390 and DEC VAX equipment (you know who you >are), the pictures are up on >http://www.users.cloud9.net/~sridhar/mainframe/ > >Peace... Sridhar I can only imagine the mix of excitement and terror you are (or should be) feeling right now. You know, it is kind of like wishing for having five playboy playmates for girlfriends -- it makes a nice fantasy, but the reality for everybody except Hugh Hefner is that it would be miserable as much as enjoyable. I hope you are the Hugh Hefner of classiccmp. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 18 22:49:49 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Wang 8" disks In-Reply-To: <200109190252.VAA03075@wddataflo.dataflo.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Bradley Slavik wrote: > good reputation, don't know how expensive... > > http://www.discinterchange.com/ > > they claim to be able to read media > from the following machines... > > Wang OIS > Wang PC IWP > Wang PC running WP Plus > Wang VS (WPS Archive Disc) > Wang VS Alliance > Wang WITA > Wang WP Plus High Density > Wang WP Plus OIS, Wangwriter > Wang WPS > Wangwriter > > Bradley Slavik These are all hard-sector, are they not? - don From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 18 22:59:49 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BA80DF6.32C982FB@internet1.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Which one of you is the nut on the fork lift, with the big Vax 8700? :-) > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA That's Brian. I am the one taking the picture 8-) Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 23:31:56 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 18, 2001 09:13:40 PM Message-ID: <200109190431.f8J4Vuu23584@narnia.int.dittman.net> > To all those that wanted to see the pictures of Brian Hechinger and I > unloading a truckload of IBM S/390 and DEC VAX equipment (you know who you > are), the pictures are up on > http://www.users.cloud9.net/~sridhar/mainframe/ What banged up the mainframe? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 18 23:39:23 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 18, 2001 09:13:40 PM Message-ID: <200109190439.f8J4dNF23605@narnia.int.dittman.net> Okay, you've got a 35 VUP system (VAX 7610), a 32 VUP system (VAX 6610), and a 6 VUP system (VAX 8700). However, it looks like you are missing the power controllers. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Tue Sep 18 23:41:06 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010918202552.00be29a0@postoffice.pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Jim Battle wrote: > I can only imagine the mix of excitement and terror you are (or should be) > feeling right now. Terror? Naah. > You know, it is kind of like wishing for having five playboy playmates for > girlfriends -- it makes a nice fantasy, but the reality for everybody > except Hugh Hefner is that it would be miserable as much as enjoyable. > > I hope you are the Hugh Hefner of classiccmp. Hehehehe. Actually, this isn't my first mainframe. I have a 9672 G5 which isn't on-topic yet, as well as an IBM ES/9000 9121 and Burroughs G20m which are. 8-) Now I want a TOPS-20 machine. That would rock. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 00:23:47 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Re: Mainframe stuff... (Eric Dittman) References: <200109190439.f8J4dNF23605@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15272.11235.258082.798781@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 18, Eric Dittman wrote: > Okay, you've got a 35 VUP system (VAX 7610), a 32 VUP system (VAX 6610), > and a 6 VUP system (VAX 8700). However, it looks like you are missing > the power controllers. The power controller for the 8700 is still down here in storage. It is stored at another location separate from the 8700 and we couldn't pick it up while Sridhar and Brian were here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vcf at vintage.org Wed Sep 19 00:31:23 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Someone needs help for research paper Message-ID: Can anyone help Dianne out with some computer wisdom? See message below, and please remember to CC your message to . ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 06:32:53 -0700 From: dfmedic To: vcf@vintage.org Subject: Assistance Please Hi, I have been researching for information on comparing and contrasting mainframes and personal computers, but have not been able to locate any specific information. This information is required for a paper I have to present at the university I am attending. Could you send me some information on this or direct me to the appropriate resource? Thank you for your time and assistance. Sincerely, Dianne Fisher -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From andyh at netcomuk.co.uk Wed Sep 19 00:51:20 2001 From: andyh at netcomuk.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Leicester (Donnington) show Message-ID: <000201c140cf$1b72c980$4d4d2c0a@atx> > Can you let us have some more info? It's one of the biggest Amateur Radio events of the year (and, as such, has quite a high computer-related content) Two days (Friday and Saturday*) at the Donnington International Exhibition Centre Donnington Park Castle Donnington (near junctions 23A/24/24A of M1) 0930-1730 (1700 Saturday) lots of trade stands/flea market/bring and buy admission ?3 parking free - free bus from airport (and cheap bus from railway station Loughborough or Derby to airport) see www.lars.org.uk * but I think there is a big Touring Car race on the Saturday at the adjacent racetrack so getting there/back on Saturday may be less than pleasant. Andy From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Tue Sep 18 17:20:19 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Hardware races In-Reply-To: "Mike Kenzie" "Hardware races" (Sep 17, 23:33) References: <006201c13ff2$af3387f0$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <10109182320.ZM2845@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 17, 23:33, Mike Kenzie wrote: > On another list someone mentioned that a PDP11 ran at about the same > speed as a 486-66. > > I don't have a 486-66 but do have a PDP11/34 in the garage so I > suggested that if a 486-66 could be found we could have a race. I don't think an 11/34 or similar would come anywhere close to a 486DX2-66 in terms of processor speed. More like a slow 286. The real advantage of a mini was the architecture, which was designed to reap the benefit of multiple intelligent DMA subsystems and perhaps multiple busses. The same is true now, comparing expensive SGI kit with fast Pentiums -- you only see the advantage on specific tasks, like certain kinds of rendering. > Any suggestions for a fair race? Something that reflects the sort of use a mini would be put to; something with multiuple users or at least multiple processes, and a healthy mix of I/O. A Dhrystone test is definitely not what I'm thinking of :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 18 17:10:34 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: So I finally had time to pick up my MMJ crimper.... Message-ID: <3BA7C65A.D579039D@internet1.net> It came in last week, I ordered it from Kendall electric. It's an Ideal Industries Crimpmaster. I was a little disappointed to find that it was made in Taiwan. Oh well, at least they are allies. I bought the connectors to go along with it too. I got home, promptly cut off the filed down standard RJ11 connector off of one end of my cable. THEN, I tried putting a new connector into the crimper.... I couldn't figure out how the dumb thing was supposed to work! I was thinking GREAT, I just dumped 70 bucks into a specialized tool I can't seem to use. I checked part numbers several times. Turns out the MMJ die set was in wrong.... they misassembled it at the factory. It worked fine once I straightened it out :-) Now I have a proper cable :-) Maybe sometime soon I can start messing around with the Vax again.... still need to break into VMS. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 19 02:11:07 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... References: Message-ID: <3BA8450B.B1A08564@internet1.net> Do you have any pictures of the Burroughs? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Hehehehe. Actually, this isn't my first mainframe. I have a 9672 G5 > which isn't on-topic yet, as well as an IBM ES/9000 9121 and Burroughs > G20m which are. 8-) Now I want a TOPS-20 machine. That would rock. > > Peace... Sridhar From alan.pearson at cramer.com Wed Sep 19 03:52:39 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Philips P850 (Was: Classic Computers vs...) Message-ID: "Tony Duell" wrote: > It is worth seeing just how a processor can be built from > gates and flip-flops (and this will hopefully remove the myth that > there's something magical about the design of a CPU). A good book was written about this back in the late 80s by the bloke who taught us about digital design. I forget the title, but the author is Peter Thewlis and the book was published by the Oxford University Press. Takes you all the way from the basics of how to build various flip-flops to how to build registers and an ALU. Excellent fun :) --al From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Sep 19 08:34:00 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> Message-ID: <002601c1410f$bdbb2d00$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Bob Shannon > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:38 PM > > Does anyone on this thread even understand microprogramming? > > Apparently not. > Yes I do. Although I never actually implemented a microcoded machine, my co-workers at Allen-Bradley were building them in the late 70's and early 80's. I studied micro-programmed architectures extensively at that time, did several paper designs, and wrote the microcode for them. Unfortunately, building the hardware at the time was prohibitively costly and difficult to do on my own time/nickel. By the time I got the company to put one of my machines into production, it was a two stage pipelined RISC, with jump slots and all that, like a MIPS. No microcode at all. Every instruction was hard-wired, and executed in a single cycle. The Allen-Bradley PLC-3, and the later PLC-2 were both AMD 29xx based microcoded architectures. The early PLC-2, the mini-PLC 2, and the PLC-5 were microcoded machines also. The early PLC-2 used an 8080, and the mini PLC-2 used a Z-80 as the micro-engine. Weird techniques were used: mapping ROMs, hardware assists for the boolean opcodes, etc. On the mini there was no hardware assist except for the mapping ROM. In micro-engine mode, the stack pointer was used as the PC of the emulated machine. An opcode fetch was something like a POP HL followed by a couple LDs and a JP (HL). During the pop the opcode byte passed through the mapping ROM to turn it into the address of the execution routine for that opcode. When an interrupt occurred the Z-80 operated more traditionally. A Pentium microprocessor is just as good a microengine as an AMD 2901/2910, or a 3000 series bit slice. The techniques I intend to use are the same as those used in the microcoded machines of the 70's, except there is no specialized hardware assist for decoding instructions, such as the mapping ROM, or address mode decoders. These can be replaced by large, fully expanded tables in RAM, now that RAM is so dirt cheap. > Pentium CPU's can't be microprogrammed, unless your Intel. Even microcode > updates cannot replace the basic instruction set. That's not what I'm saying. The Pentium is probably not microprogrammed anyhow, at least for the majority of instructions. They probably have a microcoded front end for the messy stuff, like context switching. I'm adding one more level of abstraction -- microcoding on the microcoded machine, so to speak. Like the Mini PLC-2. > > If you write a program in Pentium assembly code to run PDP-11 > instructions, you > have just written an 'emulator', even if it does not run under windows. Yes, a microcoded machine is one kind of emulator. Every microcoded architecture is an emulation. The underlying micromachine bears little resemblance to the machine that the user sees. It's a nice distinction, and not razor sharp. I would say that an "emulator" runs under an OS on a machine that is still running windows, NT, Linux, or whatever. A microcoded machine runs barefooted on the hardware, over which it has exclusive control. Whether that hardware itself is microcoded makes no difference. > > But an writing such an emulator is not 'microprogramming'. It is so. I don't know of any rule that says that the micromachine has to have a particular type of architecture, or that it can't be an off-the-shelf machine, rather than a collection of AMD 29xx parts. You can argue that hardware is software, or that software is hardware. It's all logic. The distinction is pretty academic. What I am saying is that it would be possible to re-create almost any classic architecture using much the same techniques used back in the 70's to create the original machines. Instead of designing a custom micromachine, you just go down to the corner store, buy a Pentium IV machine, erase the hard drive, and throw away the disks. Now, on another machine, sit down and write the "microcode" in x86 assembly language, load it on a floppy, and boot the Pentium IV, which now becomes a PDP-11, 1130, CDC, or whatever. If you copy a disk image of the target OS to the IDE hard drive, it will boot and run just like the original machine. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Sep 19 09:14:41 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <3BA7ACA7.BE5A4D2@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <002701c14115$6cc14a50$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > The idea is to write PDP-11 microcode for the PC platform, > rather running an > > "emulator" under Windows or whatever. The Pentium would be viewed as the > > micro-architecture, the PDP-11 as the real machine. It would be > table driven > > and fully expanded, using the PC memory rather extravagantly. ... > > OK. But, this microcode has to have an OS around. because: > > - how to use the MMU ? > - you need access to serial ports ? > - disks > - tapes > - ethernet > - etc. > > Or do you like to program this stuff all by yourself ? > > > Still, definitely not a Windoze, but somekind of ukernel. > Anyway, start with it, and we see one day ;-) No OS, not at all. The x86 MMU is just part of the microengine used to implement the MMU of the target machine. View it as part of the hardware-assist, just like the opcode mapping ROMs of traditional microcoded machines. On a micro coded machine, typically the last opcode of the emulation of any particular macro-opcode is a fetch and dispatch of the next opcode. This jams a new address into the micro-PC to get you to the appropriate routine to emulate the new opcode. Interrupts are handled similarly -- if the interrupt flag is set, it overrides the opcode dispatch and puts you at a routine to take care of emulating an interrupt. So using a trap generating hardware assist in microcode is nothing new. I/O registers are implemented by trapping to a hardware emulation routine when the CPU microcode writes to the I/O register. The I/O page is set up in the x86 MMU as protected. Say you do a "mov r0,@$177560" (that's the console data port, right?) The microcode for this is something like: LODSW ; SI is R7, fetch second word of opcode to AX MOV [DSPACE+AX},BX ; say BX is R0, save R0 to EA in dspace CMP BX,#0 ; set condition codes LODSW ; fetch next opcode JMP [DISPATCH+AX*4] ; dispatch next opcode (I'm not too sure of the x86 addressing modes, it's so unorthogonal, so don't criticize my assembly code). However when you do this, the x86 MMU says "nothing doing" and traps you to the illegal access routine. This routine will look at the effective address that caused the violation, and will dispatch you to a routine that emulates the SLU. This routine will grab the data that was going to be written, and write it instead to the RXDATA port of COM1:. The trap routine will then return (without restarting the MOV [DSPACE+AX},BX opcode). Any other hardware can be emulated in a similar fashion. Wherever possible, let the real hardware do the work, all the trap routines have to do is reroute the data to the right places. No OS, no microkernel, except a couple routines to setup the MMU, and to handle dispatching traps. I realize that programming the x86 MMU by hand will be nasty. I've done it once before, and gave up after a while, but I did get it to work a little. Maybe I can steal some code from the Linux kernel. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From mldrew at drewtech.com Wed Sep 19 09:14:27 2001 From: mldrew at drewtech.com (Michael L. Drew) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3BA8A843.8C914E25@drewtech.com> Bob Shannon wrote: > Does anyone on this thread even understand microprogramming? > > Apparently not. > Well, I understand microprogramming. I though we were speaking figuratively. The "microprogramming" we were talking about was treating the Pentium as a very complicated micro engine.... Which IMHO it really is. Using your definition every machine that has writeable microcode is "emulating" something else... I recall that MIT built a native LISP machine using 2901 bit slice processors. Wasn't this the basis of the Symbolics machines??? Does anyone recall the name of the 2901 based machine that could be transformed into 8080,Z80,6800,68000, etc. I believe that it came out in the 1980's. Emulator or not I still think that it is a cool idea.... A kind of VMware fro PDP-11. On a 1.4Ghz processor it should really haul. Mike > > Pentium CPU's can't be microprogrammed, unless your Intel. Even microcode > updates cannot replace the basic instruction set. > > If you write a program in Pentium assembly code to run PDP-11 instructions, you > have just written an 'emulator', even if it does not run under windows. > > But an writing such an emulator is not 'microprogramming'. > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > The idea is to write PDP-11 microcode for the PC platform, rather running an > > "emulator" under Windows or whatever. The Pentium would be viewed as the > > micro-architecture, the PDP-11 as the real machine. It would be table driven > > and fully expanded, using the PC memory rather extravagantly. You should be > > able to emulate simple instructions at the rate of about 4~8 Pentium opcodes > > for every PDP-11 opcode. If you rely on the Pentium MMU to trap accesses to > > the I/O page, you don't have to check for non-memory accesses from within > > the CPU model. The trap routines would emulate PDP-11 I/O, mapping it onto > > the PC hardware, rather than onto file I/O as in an emulator. The Pentium > > MMU can also be used to emulate the PDP-11 MMU. Map the PDP-11 registers > > onto Pentium registers, and never save them in memory except on a trap. This > > gives you a very, very fast PDP-11, IBM 1130, or whatever. If you can figure > > out a way to cause the machine to boot this "microcode" at powerup instead > > of Microsoft Wincrash, I argue that you could legitimately call this a > > PDP-11. > > > > I think I remember hearing that the IBM 360 VM OS did this. > > > > It seems a clean way of preserving classic architecture without having to > > mess with decayed disk drives, and without the compromises imposed by > > emulation. > > > > Sort of like rebuilding the Parthenon with injection-molded faux-marble > > columns and friezes. ;-) > > > > -- > > Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation > > Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road > > Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117, USA > > Euclid Labs engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > > Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 1:01 PM > > > To: classiccmp > > > Subject: Re: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers > > > vs. Classic Computing) > > > > > > > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > > > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > > > > > > > sizes. Prices are > > > > > > about $100 per meg. Something called "flash DIMM" shows up on > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at this prices, what happened to the old 3.5" floppy drive ? > > > > > If you can start a complete/compressed linux/firewall from > > > there, should > > > > > be enough to start an emulator. > > > > > And, BTW, not all of the pc motherboard chip sets supports FLASH DIMM > > > > > (any ?), > > > > > so you're stuck then with some motherboards. > > > > > > > > Very good point. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a > > > machine that > > > > was a PDP-11 as soon as you flipped on the power, but probably > > > not worth the > > > > cost and hassle of the flash. > > > > > > And, what I forgot to write is that the flash is slower anyway, so you > > > copy the > > > software from flash to *RAM anyway. > > > > > > > Didn't some of the VAXen boot their microcode > > > > from a floppy? > > > > > > yes > > > > > > > Also, that way you could have one microcode floppy for each classic > > > > architecture. > > > > > > works only if you have the OS on the floppy too. > > > > > > > I think that my emulator idea can be made to work under Win32. > > > > > > Sorry, I missed that. What is so special about your idea ? > > > (No offense, just missed you posting I guess ;-)) > > > > > > > It appears there are facilities allowing an application > > > > program to catch access violations. > > > > > > Sure. But it is easier to check this yourself. > > > > > > cheers > > > -- =============================================================================== Michael L. Drew Drew Technologies, Inc. 41 Enterprise Drive Ann Arbor, MI 48103 Phone: (734) 623-8080 Fax: (734) 623-8082 =============================================================================== From emu at ecubics.com Wed Sep 19 09:59:33 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> <3BA8A843.8C914E25@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <3BA8B2D5.FB0A3F68@ecubics.com> "Michael L. Drew" wrote: > > Does anyone recall the name of the 2901 based machine that could be transformed > into 8080,Z80,6800,68000, etc. I believe that it came out in the 1980's. HEX-29 ? > > Emulator or not I still think that it is a cool idea.... A kind of VMware fro > PDP-11. > > On a 1.4Ghz processor it should really haul. My guess is, that there are better CPU for this job ;-) cheers, emanuel From dseagrav at sakura.lunar-tokyo.net Wed Sep 19 09:58:41 2001 From: dseagrav at sakura.lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Does anyone have RM03 prints? Message-ID: I'm rebuilding an RM03 head stack (I have two crashed drives, making one good one from the two), and I got a problem here... Drive one has all of the heads bad except for platter 2, head 1, and surface 3, head two. (That is, I have one good UP head, and one good DOWN head.) Drive two has all of the heads good, except for the heads for platter 1. That is, I have both the UP and DOWN heads for the topmost platter dead. The problem is, the good UP head from the first drive is the servo head, apparently - The pigtails for this head come out on the opposite side from the others, and it has a double-ended connection. Can this head be used as a normal data head anyway? The pinout looks the same, except that it has two endings, both of which look alike... Can someone look at the RM03 prints and find this out for me? This is my only good UP head, so if I roach it, I'm done for. PS: Ripping the drive apart and getting the head stack out to play with was somewhat easier than it looked like; All I had to do was get the big magnet out of the back, have someone hold the logic cage while I undid the drive head pigtails, undo the track 0 microswitch, disconnect the big coil at the end of the head assembly, and pull the whole mess out the back of the drive. Oh, and I'll have to take pictures of the crashed heads later; They're really impressive! The original top head for the second drive is COMPLETELY GONE. I have both the head and the platter it crashed onto stored upstairs to take pictures of as soon as the camera works again. From dtwright at uiuc.edu Wed Sep 19 10:38:48 2001 From: dtwright at uiuc.edu (Dan Wright) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Does anyone have RM03 prints? In-Reply-To: ; from dseagrav@sakura.lunar-tokyo.net on Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 09:58:41AM -0500 References: Message-ID: <20010919103848.A2602155@uiuc.edu> Daniel Seagraves said: > > Oh, and I'll have to take pictures of the crashed heads later; They're > really impressive! The original top head for the second drive is > COMPLETELY GONE. I have both the head and the platter it crashed onto > stored upstairs to take pictures of as soon as the camera works again. heh... I have a much newer (3.5" half-height SCSI) drive that did the same thing to itself. the head is TOTALLY gone, the platter is all scratched to hell and has a deep groove all the way around it, and the inside of the case is filled with fine black dust (probably the remains of the head and what got scraped off the platter...). I have it sitting on top of one of the monitors in my office so I can tell users "this is what happens when you let your drives get too hot, so be careful"... :) - Dan Wright (dtwright@uiuc.edu) (http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright) -] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [- ``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread, For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.'' Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Sep 19 10:52:09 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual Message-ID: <002c01c14123$0a4920b0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I was rummaging in the attic looking for my IBM 1130 listings, and came across this Interdata 7/32 C Maintenance Manual. It includes detailed schematics of the CPU, and the microcode listing. Is anyone interested in scanning or copying this? -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 19 11:12:40 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Injection molding for prototypes References: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> <3BA8A843.8C914E25@drewtech.com> <3BA8B2D5.FB0A3F68@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <001301c14125$e8710180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I got an advertisement from a shop that does short-run injection molding, etc, which I haven't read thoroughly, but as this was a recent topic, I'll forward it to anyone interested. I'm not going simply to forward it to the list for reasons of saving bandwidth. Anyone interested in reading this ad, please email me and I'll make a list and forward it to that list in a day or so. Dick From emu at ecubics.com Wed Sep 19 11:33:14 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual References: <002c01c14123$0a4920b0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BA8C8CA.B68C2DE8@ecubics.com> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > I was rummaging in the attic looking for my IBM 1130 listings, and came > across this Interdata 7/32 C Maintenance Manual. It includes detailed > schematics of the CPU, and the microcode listing. Is anyone interested in > scanning or copying this? What chips are used for the cpu part ? From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 11:44:20 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) In-Reply-To: <3BA20D4A.BBAF9962@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <20010919164420.79171.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- emanuel stiebler wrote: > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU... > > > > Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? > > 68882 is right for 68030 & 68020. 68881 only foir 68020. > (talking about hardware, no software) I _think_ the Amiga 3000/16 had a 16Mhz 68881 and the A3000/25 had a 25Mhz 68882, but I could easily be mistaken. My memory is that the parts were interchangable in hardware (presuming the speed was OK) but the performance was better at a given speed for the 68882 over the 68881. I never did any rendering on my Amigas, so my use of the floating point was rather limited. I skipped over the '020 when I was heavily into Amigas, leaping from a massively expanded A1000 (Rejuvinator, Spirit InBoard, Microbotics Starboard w/Star- Drive, ROM switcher, etc.) to an A3000/25. -ethan __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 11:51:13 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109190431.f8J4Vuu23584@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: The DASD rack was quite heavy and slid around a bit. The damage appears to be superficial though, and I will probably get it fixed. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > What banged up the mainframe? > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 19 11:52:54 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Injection molding for prototypes In-Reply-To: <001301c14125$e8710180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20010919165254.27597.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > I got an advertisement from a shop that does short-run injection molding, > etc, which I haven't read thoroughly, but as this was a recent topic, > I'll forward it to anyone interested. I wanted to take up the groups bandwidth and attention to suggest a group buy - DEC toggle switches. I have a small box of toggle switches from PDP-8/Ls and similar devices with broken pivots. For small quantities, I was figuring I'd drill/melt out a hole at the axis and replace it with a wire. If a run of 100 switches in each color (goldenrod and what's the orange called?) wouldn't be ludicrously expensive, it might be worth it, but I know I'd never use more than 5-10 total. Anyone else need DEC front-panel switches? Any particular color? -ethan __________________________________________________ Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? Donate cash, emergency relief information http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 11:53:34 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109190439.f8J4dNF23605@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Well, I found out later that the 35 VUP system is actually closer to being a 175 VUP system, because it is actually a 7650. The power equipment is around there, as is that for the 6610. The regulators for the 8700 are coming later. Dave McGuire (he gave the 8700 to me) has them. Peace... Sridhar On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > Okay, you've got a 35 VUP system (VAX 7610), a 32 VUP system (VAX 6610), > and a 6 VUP system (VAX 8700). However, it looks like you are missing > the power controllers. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 11:55:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BA8450B.B1A08564@internet1.net> Message-ID: I do somewhere. I'll have to look. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Do you have any pictures of the Burroughs? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 19 11:57:20 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109190439.f8J4dNF23605@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109191657.SAA02801@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 18 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > Okay, you've got a 35 VUP system (VAX 7610), a 32 VUP system (VAX 6610), > and a 6 VUP system (VAX 8700). Don't forget that VAX 4000 in the 19" rack (P2100253.JPG) and that nice BA215 (P2100244.JPG behind the plotter), what ever it contains. > However, it looks like you are missing the power controllers. And the disk, tape, ... subsytems of the 8700? Sridhar, Brian you both are crazy. Absolutely nuts. And I have to say that I like people like you very much. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 19 12:02:02 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual Message-ID: What's the rev of the manual? I might need it depending on the rev. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 12:04:40 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Hardware races In-Reply-To: <10109182320.ZM2845@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Something that reflects the sort of use a mini would be put to; something > with multiuple users or at least multiple processes, and a healthy mix of > I/O. A Dhrystone test is definitely not what I'm thinking of :-) How about a telnet/web/FTP server? Minis tend to do very well with that kind of stuff. Peace... Sridhar From emu at ecubics.com Wed Sep 19 12:38:38 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) References: <20010919164420.79171.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3BA8D81E.ACA280C2@ecubics.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > --- emanuel stiebler wrote: > > Iggy Drougge wrote: > > > > > >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU... > > > > > > Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? > > > > 68882 is right for 68030 & 68020. 68881 only foir 68020. > > (talking about hardware, no software) > > I _think_ the Amiga 3000/16 had a 16Mhz 68881 and the A3000/25 > had a 25Mhz 68882, but I could easily be mistaken. That's a while ago ;-) But as I remember it, if your motherboard provided a different clk for the FPU, it could be clocked much higher, reulting in much nice FP performance. cpu & FPU were working async. > I never did any rendering on my Amigas, > so my use of the floating point was rather limited. I did, and it was fun ;-) > I skipped over > the '020 when I was heavily into Amigas, leaping from a massively > expanded A1000 (Rejuvinator, Spirit InBoard, Microbotics Starboard w/Star- > Drive, ROM switcher, etc.) to an A3000/25. Never had an Amiga. Probably it is the time now ... cheers From red at bears.org Wed Sep 19 12:40:10 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? In-Reply-To: <20010918.214253.-90261.0.jeff.kaneko@juno.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Sep 2001 jeff.kaneko@juno.com wrote: > I own an AV-400, and a 412. In addition, > I have enough parts to turn my 400 into a > AV-530. > > The 400 could be a single or dual processor > machine, mine uses a 'stock' framebuffer. Colour or monochrome? What about the 412, which I think might be more relevant to the actual goal of this project? > There used to be a page that had some of > the NV-RAM info on it; I'll have to see > if I have it stashed away somewhere. I do, but the guy who wrote it had only the information he was able to gather from reverse-assembly and heavy pharmaceutical use. I'm impressed at what he was able to learn (and it helped me at least get the NVRAM in my 310CD reconditioned well enough to run the machine), but there are a few details I still need that he couldn't provide, since his test environment was a single 310 with monochrome graphics. I need some information about two bytes in the NVRAM which relate to graphics option. > Do you have the DG/UX install CD/Tape? I do, in fact, have several releases of DG/UX on both QIC tape and CD-ROM. I'd be interested in trading a copy of one for a dump of the NVRAMs. I can tell you how to get the dump, too. ok r. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 19 12:40:18 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Wang 8" disks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Bradley Slavik wrote: > > http://www.discinterchange.com/ > > they claim to be able to read media > > from the following machines... > > Wang . . . On Tue, 18 Sep 2001, Don Maslin wrote: > These are all hard-sector, are they not? There exist some Wang soft-sectored formats (OIS?) that are either CP/M or a CP/M compatible directory structure. -- Fred Cisin cisin@xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From chris at mainecoon.com Wed Sep 19 12:43:30 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) In-Reply-To: <20010919164420.79171.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ethan Dicks wrote: > emanuel stiebler wrote: > > 68882 is right for 68030 & 68020. 68881 only foir 68020. > > (talking about hardware, no software) > > My memory is that the parts were interchangable in hardware (presuming > the speed was OK) but the performance was better at a given speed > for the 68882 over the 68881. Yep. I was a co-owner of a firm that build accelerators for the Ami; in the lab we used '881s and '882s interchangeably -- just whatever was handy. As far as the bus interface was concerned the '882 was identical to the '881 -- it just took fewer clocks than the '881 for some operations. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Sep 19 12:47:51 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Injection molding for prototypes In-Reply-To: <20010919165254.27597.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> References: <001301c14125$e8710180$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010919124751.0089f200@ubanproductions.com> A source for the PDP 11 red, purple, and white ones would be useful. --tom At 09:52 AM 9/19/01 -0700, you wrote: > >--- Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I got an advertisement from a shop that does short-run injection molding, >> etc, which I haven't read thoroughly, but as this was a recent topic, >> I'll forward it to anyone interested. > >I wanted to take up the groups bandwidth and attention to suggest a >group buy - DEC toggle switches. I have a small box of toggle switches >from PDP-8/Ls and similar devices with broken pivots. For small >quantities, >I was figuring I'd drill/melt out a hole at the axis and replace it with >a wire. If a run of 100 switches in each color (goldenrod and what's >the orange called?) wouldn't be ludicrously expensive, it might be worth >it, but I know I'd never use more than 5-10 total. > >Anyone else need DEC front-panel switches? Any particular color? > >-ethan > > >__________________________________________________ >Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help? >Donate cash, emergency relief information >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/ > > From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 12:49:47 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 19, 2001 06:57:20 PM Message-ID: <200109191749.f8JHnlR25078@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Okay, you've got a 35 VUP system (VAX 7610), a 32 VUP system (VAX 6610), > > and a 6 VUP system (VAX 8700). > Don't forget that VAX 4000 in the 19" rack (P2100253.JPG) and that nice > BA215 (P2100244.JPG behind the plotter), what ever it contains. I missed the 4000 due to the shadow and the BA215 as I didn't scroll all the way down. More nice toys. > > However, it looks like you are missing the power controllers. > And the disk, tape, ... subsytems of the 8700? > > Sridhar, Brian you both are crazy. Absolutely nuts. And I have to say > that I like people like you very much. ;-) As someone that cares for an 8820 at work, I really think the 8700 is nuts, but fun. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 12:54:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 19, 2001 09:44:20 AM Message-ID: <200109191754.f8JHsZj25107@narnia.int.dittman.net> > My memory is that the parts were interchangable in hardware (presuming > the speed was OK) but the performance was better at a given speed > for the 68882 over the 68881. I never did any rendering on my Amigas, > so my use of the floating point was rather limited. I skipped over > the '020 when I was heavily into Amigas, leaping from a massively > expanded A1000 (Rejuvinator, Spirit InBoard, Microbotics Starboard w/Star- > Drive, ROM switcher, etc.) to an A3000/25. I had a Mac II, which used a 68881. I remember the 68882 being sold by some people as a speed-up for the Mac II. I bought a 68851 MMU so I could run A/UX on my Mac II. The 68851 added functionality necessary for A/UX but did slow down memory access slightly. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 12:58:27 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... Message-ID: <200109191758.f8JHwRv25140@narnia.int.dittman.net> I accidentally deleted the message before I read it completely, so I don't know what you said after commenting about the VUPs rating for the 7650, but the 7650 is about 155 VUPs, not 175, according the table I got from DEC. The 7610 is 35 VUPs, and each processor adds 30VUPs. You lose the rest due to overhead. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 13:01:12 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Tru64 V5.1 Message-ID: <200109191801.f8JI1CJ25154@narnia.int.dittman.net> I know this is off-topic, but earlier there was some discussion that included comments about people buying the Tru64 hobbyist kit. If anyone has the Tru64 V5.1 CD set, I need to get an ISO image of the Associated Products CD 1 of 2. I damaged my CD. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Sep 19 13:01:12 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) In-Reply-To: <3BA8B2D5.FB0A3F68@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <003701c14135$113654d0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > My guess is, that there are better CPU for this job ;-) > > cheers, > emanuel > But nothing within two orders of magnitude on the performance/price curve. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com Wed Sep 19 13:13:03 2001 From: Lee.Davison at merlincommunications.com (Davison, Lee) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) Message-ID: <707AA588EE28D311BCD50090276D7D0002146D96@BUSH02> > 68882 is right for 68030 & 68020. 68881 only foir 68020. > (talking about hardware, no software) My memory is that the parts were interchangable in hardware (presuming the speed was OK) but the performance was better at a given speed for the 68882 over the 68881. They are. Lee. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- This email is intended only for the above named addressee(s). The information contained in this email may contain information which is confidential. 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From h.wolter at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 19 13:50:18 2001 From: h.wolter at sympatico.ca (Heinz Wolter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual References: <002c01c14123$0a4920b0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3BA8C8CA.B68C2DE8@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <007c01c1413b$edddda60$3a92a8c0@MAGGIE> Being an Interdata model 70 owner, I would say likely good ole TTL '181s for the ALU, just like the the pdp10/10-20. I doubt that the 7/32 had 2901's or anything close to bit slice back then.. My model 70 uses TTL fuse proms for ucode storage- everything else looks like 4 bit wide straight TTL series. Isn't the 7/32 one of the very few machines that K&R ported Unix (v5 era) to ? cheers Heinz ----- Original Message ----- From: "emanuel stiebler" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: Re: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > I was rummaging in the attic looking for my IBM 1130 listings, and came > > across this Interdata 7/32 C Maintenance Manual. It includes detailed > > schematics of the CPU, and the microcode listing. Is anyone interested in > > scanning or copying this? > > What chips are used for the cpu part ? > From lemay at cs.umn.edu Wed Sep 19 13:57:25 2001 From: lemay at cs.umn.edu (Lawrence LeMay) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Injection molding for prototypes In-Reply-To: <20010919165254.27597.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200109191857.NAA28938@caesar.cs.umn.edu> The 8/e amber toggle switches are very difficult to find. I believe the colors you're looking for are Amber, Orange, and Terracotta. Maroon and Magenta probably for the 11 series. The thing is, you need to replace all the toggle switches of the same color on each front panel, so that the colors are all matched properly. Some switches will be faded various amounts, etc, and its just easier to not attempt to color match absolutely perfectly to each set of fades switch handles. So yes, i would definutely be interested in pdp 8 color toggle switches. -Lawrence LeMay > > --- Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I got an advertisement from a shop that does short-run injection molding, > > etc, which I haven't read thoroughly, but as this was a recent topic, > > I'll forward it to anyone interested. > > I wanted to take up the groups bandwidth and attention to suggest a > group buy - DEC toggle switches. I have a small box of toggle switches > from PDP-8/Ls and similar devices with broken pivots. For small > quantities, > I was figuring I'd drill/melt out a hole at the axis and replace it with > a wire. If a run of 100 switches in each color (goldenrod and what's > the orange called?) wouldn't be ludicrously expensive, it might be worth > it, but I know I'd never use more than 5-10 total. > > Anyone else need DEC front-panel switches? Any particular color? > > -ethan > From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 14:02:45 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109191657.SAA02801@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > On 18 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Okay, you've got a 35 VUP system (VAX 7610), a 32 VUP system (VAX 6610), > > and a 6 VUP system (VAX 8700). > Don't forget that VAX 4000 in the 19" rack (P2100253.JPG) and that nice > BA215 (P2100244.JPG behind the plotter), what ever it contains. Actually that rack contains two VAX 4000/700As. That thing that looks like a BA215 is actually an external DSSI cabinet full of disks. I now have craploads of 2 GB DSSI disks. > > However, it looks like you are missing the power controllers. > And the disk, tape, ... subsytems of the 8700? > > Sridhar, Brian you both are crazy. Absolutely nuts. And I have to say > that I like people like you very much. ;-) Cool. I like being nuts. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 14:05:44 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109191758.f8JHwRv25140@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: That's good enough for me. Especially since I paid for it, expecting I was buying a 7610. Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > I accidentally deleted the message before I read it completely, so > I don't know what you said after commenting about the VUPs rating > for the 7650, but the 7650 is about 155 VUPs, not 175, according > the table I got from DEC. The 7610 is 35 VUPs, and each processor > adds 30VUPs. You lose the rest due to overhead. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 19 13:46:45 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: LaserJet 4 Postscript simm? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010831133743.022e35f0@pc> Message-ID: Anybody have an extra LaserJet 4 Postscript simm, part number is C2080A? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 19 14:11:44 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109191749.f8JHnlR25078@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > I missed the 4000 due to the shadow and the BA215 as I didn't scroll all > the way down. More nice toys. Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling like on the flor stand BA23. > As someone that cares for an 8820 at work, A 8820 still in production use?! I know from ragge, the NetBSD/VAX port-master, that there is a 8800 in north Sweden runing. AFAIK it is the machine behind ftp.luth.se, as the folowing picture implies: http://www.ludd.luth.se/gallery/ludd1-mII/ftp.luth.se_mark_IV-4.jpg > I really think the 8700 is nuts, but fun. Nuts are fun. ;-) BTW a stupid question: What is a 8700? Is it SBI based like the 11/78[05] and 86[05]0, or is it XMI / VAXBI like the 85x0 or 6k VAXen? I asume that a 8700 is a 8600 in a biger enclosure? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 14:40:45 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Re: Mainframe stuff... (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <200109191749.f8JHnlR25078@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > BTW a stupid question: What is a 8700? Is it SBI based like the > 11/78[05] and 86[05]0, or is it XMI / VAXBI like the 85x0 or 6k VAXen? > I asume that a 8700 is a 8600 in a biger enclosure? The 8700 and the 8600 are very different machines. The 8700 uses VAXBI, and is mounted in a chasiss similar in size to that of the 8600. I don't think there's any XMI in there. Incidentally, the 8700 can be turned into an 8800 by plugging a second CPU card set into the machine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From willik at verizon.net Wed Sep 19 04:41:29 2001 From: willik at verizon.net (Willi Kusche) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:40 2005 Subject: Amiga 3000 problem In-Reply-To: <20010919164420.79171.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi! On 19-Sep-01, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I _think_ the Amiga 3000/16 had a 16Mhz 68881 and the A3000/25 >had a 25Mhz 68882, but I could easily be mistaken. I'm composing this message on an Amiga 3000 that had its motherboard upgraded from 16 Mhz to 25 Mhz. Ever since the upgrade I occasionally get a video crash that makes the screen unreadable. But, the system keeps running OK. For example, if that video crash were to occur while I'm typing this message, I've learned that hitting right-Amiga and 'S' will save the message so I can finish the message after re-booting the A3000. Any Amiga fans out there with any suggestions? Willi -- Willi Kusche WilliK@verizon.net /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / No HTML/RTF in email X No Word docs in email / \ Respect open standards From cmcmanis at netapp.com Wed Sep 19 15:01:58 2001 From: cmcmanis at netapp.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Small Vaxen (was Re: Mainframe stuff... Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919130154.00a6ce80@mcmanis.com> Does anyone know how to take the rolling feet off a BA215? Its really straightforward on the BA213 (I assume the same for the BA440) but the BA215 has recessed hex head screws and I can't get to them. I was wondering if there was some "preliminary" step that exposed them. --Chuck >Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and >it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling >like on the flor stand BA23. From engdahl at cle.ab.com Wed Sep 19 15:05:37 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual In-Reply-To: <3BA8C8CA.B68C2DE8@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <003c01c14146$72c3b830$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> I didn't look that closely last night, but I seem to recall that the 7/32 used gates and 4-bit-wide MSI parts. I don't think there are any bit slices in there. IIRC, the CPU took up 3 15" square panels, and the next board was the DMA controller or something like that. I'm going to send the manual to Bruce Ray to be scanned, then I think Al Kossow will put it up on his web site. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of emanuel stiebler > Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 12:33 PM > To: classiccmp > Subject: Re: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual > > > Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > > > I was rummaging in the attic looking for my IBM 1130 listings, and came > > across this Interdata 7/32 C Maintenance Manual. It includes detailed > > schematics of the CPU, and the microcode listing. Is anyone > interested in > > scanning or copying this? > > What chips are used for the cpu part ? > From steve at kostecke.net Wed Sep 19 15:33:37 2001 From: steve at kostecke.net (Steve Kostecke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted Message-ID: Does anyone have a copy of CP/M TEX (preferably for CP/M-86)? The manual is available form the usual places, unfortunately the binary is not. Thanks, -- Steve Kostecke From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 14:19:52 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 18, 1 10:38:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3034 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010919/17cd2ffc/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 15:22:11 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Does anyone have RM03 prints? In-Reply-To: from "Daniel Seagraves" at Sep 19, 1 09:58:41 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2760 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010919/c45b5e54/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 15:02:15 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Philips P850 (Was: Classic Computers vs...) In-Reply-To: from "Alan Pearson" at Sep 19, 1 09:52:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1783 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010919/be69a1d1/attachment.ksh From dan at ekoan.com Wed Sep 19 15:59:48 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919165207.0492b360@enigma> On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 at 13:40:10 "r. 'bear' stricklin" wrote: > I do, in fact, have several releases of DG/UX on both QIC tape and CD-ROM. > I'd be interested in trading a copy of one for a dump of the NVRAMs. I can > tell you how to get the dump, too. I'm just catching up on my Classic Computer reading... I've got four DG AV 4300's sitting in the next room. Each of them has a QIC tape drive. I got them without documentation and I haven't had time yet to even boot them up. If someone has instructions on how to break into root I'd be happy to try it out, and/or if there's a way to read the NVRAM without booting the OS I'll be happy to try that, too. BTW, I'd love to trade the 4300's for classic HP gear... Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Sep 19 16:04:21 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Organization tips? Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers alive? --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 16:18:25 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 19, 2001 09:11:44 PM Message-ID: <200109192118.f8JLIPq25912@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I missed the 4000 due to the shadow and the BA215 as I didn't scroll all > > the way down. More nice toys. > Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and > it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling > like on the flor stand BA23. Even worse is a rack-mount dual BA23. I used to have to pull all the cards out and reseat them on one system. The quad-width cards had locks, but the dual-width didn't, and I couldn't easily get to the dual-width cards to properly reseat them with the quad-width cards in place. I really like the BA213 and BA440. I have a 4000/500 in a BA440 at home. > > As someone that cares for an 8820 at work, > A 8820 still in production use?! > I know from ragge, the NetBSD/VAX port-master, that there is a 8800 in > north Sweden runing. AFAIK it is the machine behind ftp.luth.se, as the > folowing picture implies: > http://www.ludd.luth.se/gallery/ludd1-mII/ftp.luth.se_mark_IV-4.jpg Yes, indeed. All because of licensing costs. The 8820 is their slowest system and all it does is run that one piece of software. Never mind the environmental and service costs are more than a new system and license. > > I really think the 8700 is nuts, but fun. > Nuts are fun. ;-) Yeah, people think I'm a nut, and my computer collection is not nearly as large as it should be. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 16:20:35 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 19, 2001 03:40:45 PM Message-ID: <200109192120.f8JLKZ525936@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On September 19, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > BTW a stupid question: What is a 8700? Is it SBI based like the > > 11/78[05] and 86[05]0, or is it XMI / VAXBI like the 85x0 or 6k VAXen? > > I asume that a 8700 is a 8600 in a biger enclosure? > > The 8700 and the 8600 are very different machines. The 8700 uses > VAXBI, and is mounted in a chasiss similar in size to that of the > 8600. I don't think there's any XMI in there. > > Incidentally, the 8700 can be turned into an 8800 by plugging a > second CPU card set into the machine. The 8700/8800 systems were changed in designation about half-way through their production. The 8700 became the 8810 and the 8800 became the 8820. There was also another set of 88x0 systems that were different internally in that they could be upgraded to more CPUs. All to confuse the customer, I guess. Does the 8700 have the VAX Console? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 19 16:29:07 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109192129.XAA03371@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Sep, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > Actually that rack contains two VAX 4000/700As. Ahhhh! I get jealous reading that. The 4k VAXen are quite nice and the 700A has around 33VUPs. My best VAXen are a 4k400 and a VS4k90. > That thing that looks > like a BA215 is actually an external DSSI cabinet full of disks. Ahh, I know that. I got such a thing with my MV4k200... > I now have craploads of 2 GB DSSI disks. I know people that would kill for 2GB DSSI disks (and a KFQSA). ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 19 16:40:20 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Organization tips? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <001a01c14153$b0d49f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, what I use is a "geological" filing system. That means that if I can remember WHEN I had something last, I can go pretty directly to WHERE I left it. I strongly recommend against that method. Most of my olde computers, though almost all were functional when I last used them, are presently in a persistent vegetative state, with only one or two exceptions. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck McManis" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 3:04 PM Subject: Organization tips? > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers alive? > --Chuck > > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 19 16:56:09 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200109192156.XAA03404@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Sep, Dave McGuire wrote: > The 8700 and the 8600 are very different machines. The 8700 uses > VAXBI, and is mounted in a chasiss similar in size to that of the > 8600. I don't think there's any XMI in there. > > Incidentally, the 8700 can be turned into an 8800 by plugging a > second CPU card set into the machine. Hmmm. I got confused by: http://www.de.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html There is the 8600 (aka 11/790) listed as a SBI machine. There is no reference to the 8700. The 8800 is listed as: Basically an 8550 processor in a bigger box with space for additional processors to make it into an 8820 or 8840 The 8550 is listed: XMI processor/memory backplane with VAXBI I/O According to http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html the 8k VAXen, except the 8600, are pure VAXBI, no XMI. XMI came with the 6k VAXen. So I assume the "base" machine is the 8550. In a biger chasiss it is named 8700 and with a second CPU the 8700 is called 8800? -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 17:11:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Re: Mainframe stuff... (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) References: <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200109192156.XAA03404@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15273.6149.578147.386721@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > The 8700 and the 8600 are very different machines. The 8700 uses > > VAXBI, and is mounted in a chasiss similar in size to that of the > > 8600. I don't think there's any XMI in there. > > > > Incidentally, the 8700 can be turned into an 8800 by plugging a > > second CPU card set into the machine. > Hmmm. I got confused by: > http://www.de.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html > > There is the 8600 (aka 11/790) listed as a SBI machine. > There is no reference to the 8700. > The 8800 is listed as: > Basically an 8550 processor in a bigger box with space for additional > processors to make it into an 8820 or 8840 > The 8550 is listed: > XMI processor/memory backplane with VAXBI I/O > > According to http://anacin.nsc.vcu.edu/~jim/mvax/vax-perf.html the 8k > VAXen, except the 8600, are pure VAXBI, no XMI. XMI came with the 6k > VAXen. The only 8K machines that I have personal experience with are the 8200, 8250, and 8350. They're definitely all pure BI machines...the CPU and memory are BI cards. The 8700 has BI busses for I/O but the CPU (made up of multiple large boards) is definitely *not* BI. > So I assume the "base" machine is the 8550. In a biger chasiss it is > named 8700 I've never seen the innards of an 8550, but I can tell you that the 8700 processor is several very large non-XMI boards...maybe six boards in all, about twice the size of XMI boards, that use ZIF connectors similar to those used in XMI and BI. The VAX CPU Summary lists both the 8550 and 8700 as 6 VUP machines. > and with a second CPU the 8700 is called 8800? Yes, I can confirm this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 17:50:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and > it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling > like on the flor stand BA23. This one is an even nicer toy. This one is two 4K/700As in a rack. That thing on the floor is an external DSSI box. There is one more like it in the rack. > > As someone that cares for an 8820 at work, > A 8820 still in production use?! > I know from ragge, the NetBSD/VAX port-master, that there is a 8800 in > north Sweden runing. AFAIK it is the machine behind ftp.luth.se, as the > folowing picture implies: > http://www.ludd.luth.se/gallery/ludd1-mII/ftp.luth.se_mark_IV-4.jpg That is a sweet machine. > > I really think the 8700 is nuts, but fun. > Nuts are fun. ;-) Indeed. > BTW a stupid question: What is a 8700? Is it SBI based like the > 11/78[05] and 86[05]0, or is it XMI / VAXBI like the 85x0 or 6k VAXen? > I asume that a 8700 is a 8600 in a biger enclosure? Nope. An 8700 is a single-CPU 8800. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 19 18:13:02 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Embedded PDP-11 Processors Message-ID: <010601c14162$21ae3530$5af09a8d@ajp166> Another place where T-11 (PDP-11 cpu) was employed were the VT-240/241 Allison From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 18:21:58 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 19, 2001 11:29:07 PM Message-ID: <200109192321.f8JNLwB26399@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Actually that rack contains two VAX 4000/700As. > Ahhhh! I get jealous reading that. The 4k VAXen are quite nice and the > 700A has around 33VUPs. My best VAXen are a 4k400 and a VS4k90. The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. I seem to recall the VAX 4000/700A is about 40 VUPs and the /705A is about 45-50 VUPs. > > That thing that looks > > like a BA215 is actually an external DSSI cabinet full of disks. > Ahh, I know that. I got such a thing with my MV4k200... > > > I now have craploads of 2 GB DSSI disks. > I know people that would kill for 2GB DSSI disks (and a KFQSA). ;-) I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 19 16:35:22 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Organization tips? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 19, 1 02:04:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 785 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010919/600ae31e/attachment.ksh From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Sep 19 18:33:29 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: paging Brian Chase Message-ID: <3BA92B49.7010203@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, does anyone know where Brian Chase is? He dropped from my radar screen about two months (or more?) ago. He used to live in Bloomington, IN, not far from me, and we had hauled the VAX 6420s from my workplace in spring this year. He wanted to check out some job opportunity in California, and then he was never seen again. Does anyone have more recent information? His Web site still exists, without any news however. thanks, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From willik at verizon.net Wed Sep 19 08:48:48 2001 From: willik at verizon.net (Willi Kusche) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! On 20-Sep-01, Steve Kostecke wrote: >Does anyone have a copy of CP/M TEX (preferably for CP/M-86)? >The manual is available form the usual places, unfortunately the binary >is not. I searched a 1994 CP/M CD-ROM by Walnut Creek and found no TEX. Willi -- Willi Kusche WilliK@verizon.net /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / No HTML/RTF in email X No Word docs in email / \ Respect open standards From jss at subatomix.com Wed Sep 19 18:53:32 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010919183322.U75891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Tony Duell wrote: > > Now, as far as I can see, there's mothing to limit the complexity of > the micromachine. So, why can't we consider the Pentium as a > micromachine Good point. I agree. The boundary between the levels is totally in the eyes of the beholder. What physical format would this project assume? I can think of several right off hand: * A card that emulates CPU/memory and plugs into the (Uni|Q)bus of existing machines. * A box that sits inside a PDP-11 cabinet and replaces the entire bus and all of the cards. * A hand-held, battery-powered unit similar to a Game Boy. It's the third idea that seems the coolest to me. Build it low-power enough to run on a few batteries. Give it a front panel with switches and LEDs for the processor and emulated peripherals. Add a serial link (or maybe even a Zip disk) for transferring files to/from another computer. It would be the ultimate toy. Just think of all the flavors it could be made in. I'd love to take one of those to class with me. The other CS majors, with their PalmPilots and their MP3 playaers and their TI-92s, would be absolutely blown away. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 19:07:35 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109192321.f8JNLwB26399@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > That thing that looks > > > like a BA215 is actually an external DSSI cabinet full of disks. > > Ahh, I know that. I got such a thing with my MV4k200... > > > > > I now have craploads of 2 GB DSSI disks. > > I know people that would kill for 2GB DSSI disks (and a KFQSA). ;-) > > I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find > one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. If and when you decide to get rid of your DSSI disks, I would be only too happy to take them off your hands. I like DSSI. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 19:07:59 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Re: Mainframe stuff... (Eric Dittman) References: <200109192321.f8JNLwB26399@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15273.13151.477843.219853@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > Actually that rack contains two VAX 4000/700As. > > Ahhhh! I get jealous reading that. The 4k VAXen are quite nice and the > > 700A has around 33VUPs. My best VAXen are a 4k400 and a VS4k90. > > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. I seem to recall the > VAX 4000/700A is about 40 VUPs and the /705A is about 45-50 VUPs. The VAX CPU Summary lists these numbers: VS4000/90 32.8 VUPS 4000/700a 40 VUPS 4000/705a 45 VUPS > I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find > one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. Get rid of 'em in my direction, please. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 19 19:23:25 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109192321.f8JNLwB26399@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109200023.CAA03764@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 19 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. The VS4k9 is around 24 VUPs. It compiles quite exact twice as fast as my 4000/60 that is rated at 12 VUPs. I have seen many confusing ratings for the VS4k90. It is a nice desktop machine. Especially as mine has 128MB RAM. But it is a joke to that VAX7650. Damn. I would sell my grandma for that machine. ;-) > I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find > one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. OK. A QBUS SCSI adapter would be nicer today, but is not "the DEC way" (C) (R) (TM). ;-) BTW: My 4k400 boots from a Dilog SQ706A SCSI to MSCP adapter. This is very convenient. But the 9" 1GB SMD disks in my MV3900 are much more fun. The whole rack shakes if these disks are moving there heads. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From donm at cts.com Wed Sep 19 19:34:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Willi Kusche wrote: > Hi! > > On 20-Sep-01, Steve Kostecke wrote: > >Does anyone have a copy of CP/M TEX (preferably for CP/M-86)? > >The manual is available form the usual places, unfortunately the binary > >is not. > > I searched a 1994 CP/M CD-ROM by Walnut Creek and found no TEX. > > Willi Look in `SIMTEL/SIGM/VOL000/VOL081', or thereabouts. It is listed as TP and is available as ASM, PAS, or COM. - don > -- > Willi Kusche > WilliK@verizon.net > > /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign > \ / No HTML/RTF in email > X No Word docs in email > / \ Respect open standards > > From steve at kostecke.net Wed Sep 19 19:48:18 2001 From: steve at kostecke.net (Steve Kostecke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:48:48 +0500." Message-ID: Willi Kusche said: >On 20-Sep-01, Steve Kostecke wrote: > >>Does anyone have a copy of CP/M TEX (preferably for CP/M-86)? The >>manual is available form the usual places, unfortunately the binary is >>not. > >I searched a 1994 CP/M CD-ROM by Walnut Creek and found no TEX. CP/M TEX was a commercial product (from DRI). I'd have been surprised to find it on the Walnut Creek CD-ROM. Thanks for looking... -- Steve Kostecke /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / Public Key at gopher://kostecke.net X Against HTML in e-mail & news or `finger steve@kostecke.net` / \ Against MS attachments From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 20:00:07 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Re: Mainframe stuff... (Absurdly Obtuse) References: <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <15273.16279.989132.819862@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and > > it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling > > like on the flor stand BA23. > > This one is an even nicer toy. This one is two 4K/700As in a rack. That > thing on the floor is an external DSSI box. There is one more like it in > the rack. You're welcome, fanboy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 20:04:29 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 19, 2001 08:07:59 PM Message-ID: <200109200104.f8K14Uq26645@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > > Actually that rack contains two VAX 4000/700As. > > > Ahhhh! I get jealous reading that. The 4k VAXen are quite nice and the > > > 700A has around 33VUPs. My best VAXen are a 4k400 and a VS4k90. > > > > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. I seem to recall the > > VAX 4000/700A is about 40 VUPs and the /705A is about 45-50 VUPs. > > The VAX CPU Summary lists these numbers: > > VS4000/90 32.8 VUPS > 4000/700a 40 VUPS > 4000/705a 45 VUPS The numbers I have are from DSN, and the 42 VUP rating for the 4000/90 feels right to me. > > I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find > > one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. > > Get rid of 'em in my direction, please. 8-) Okay, when I do you've got first shot. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 20:17:45 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... Message-ID: <200109200117.f8K1Hj526670@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > > > Actually that rack contains two VAX 4000/700As. > > > > Ahhhh! I get jealous reading that. The 4k VAXen are quite nice and the > > > > 700A has around 33VUPs. My best VAXen are a 4k400 and a VS4k90. > > > > > > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > > > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. I seem to recall the > > > VAX 4000/700A is about 40 VUPs and the /705A is about 45-50 VUPs. > > > > The VAX CPU Summary lists these numbers: > > > > VS4000/90 32.8 VUPS > > 4000/700a 40 VUPS > > 4000/705a 45 VUPS > > The numbers I have are from DSN, and the 42 VUP rating for the 4000/90 feels > right to me. Maybe the /90 is 32 VUPs and the /90A is 38.8, which would make sense if the list on DSN is off for both system. What leads me to believe the DSN listing is in error now is I just ran a test program on a /90, 90A, /400, and /500, and the numbers for the /90 and /90A are way off from what I'd expect if the ratings from DSN are correct. I'm going to run some tests this weekend to try to get better numbers. I wish the original DEC test program was available. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 19 20:48:47 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Eric Dittman" at Sep 19, 2001 08:04:29 PM Message-ID: <200109200148.f8K1ml404448@shell1.aracnet.com> > > > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > > > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. I seem to recall the > > > VAX 4000/700A is about 40 VUPs and the /705A is about 45-50 VUPs. > > > > The VAX CPU Summary lists these numbers: > > > > VS4000/90 32.8 VUPS > > 4000/700a 40 VUPS > > 4000/705a 45 VUPS > > The numbers I have are from DSN, and the 42 VUP rating for the 4000/90 feels > right to me. The "VAX CPU Summary" numbers above are their SPECint92 numbers, NOT their VUP rating. I'm glad to finally see VUP ratings for these systems. Eric, I don't suppose you've also got any kind of full list from DSN? If not do you happen to have info on the VS4000/90A and /96? Zane From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 20:50:09 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 20, 2001 02:23:25 AM Message-ID: <200109200150.f8K1oAu26744@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. > The VS4k9 is around 24 VUPs. It compiles quite exact twice as fast as my > 4000/60 that is rated at 12 VUPs. I have seen many confusing ratings for > the VS4k90. It is a nice desktop machine. Especially as mine has 128MB > RAM. But it is a joke to that VAX7650. Damn. I would sell my grandma > for that machine. ;-) I have a couple of VAX 7730 systems at work. They're pretty nice, and they each have 2GB of RAM. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 20:50:53 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 19, 2001 08:07:35 PM Message-ID: <200109200150.f8K1orm26755@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find > > one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. > > If and when you decide to get rid of your DSSI disks, I would be only too > happy to take them off your hands. I like DSSI. Sorry, Dave got here first. :-) -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 21:03:06 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <15273.16279.989132.819862@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 19, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and > > > it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling > > > like on the flor stand BA23. > > > > This one is an even nicer toy. This one is two 4K/700As in a rack. That > > thing on the floor is an external DSSI box. There is one more like it in > > the rack. > > You're welcome, fanboy. Ahem. Thank you, Dave. Funny, I thought I already did that. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 21:06:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: Re: Mainframe stuff... (Eric Dittman) References: <200109200117.f8K1Hj526670@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <15273.20267.317971.987688@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, Eric Dittman wrote: > Maybe the /90 is 32 VUPs and the /90A is 38.8, which would make sense if the > list on DSN is off for both system. What leads me to believe the DSN listing > is in error now is I just ran a test program on a /90, 90A, /400, and /500, > and the numbers for the /90 and /90A are way off from what I'd expect if the > ratings from DSN are correct. I'm going to run some tests this weekend to > try to get better numbers. The CPU Summary lists the /90A at 38.5. > I wish the original DEC test program was available. Me too. :-/ -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 19 21:09:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) In-Reply-To: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) (Ethan Dicks) References: <3BA20D4A.BBAF9962@ecubics.com> <20010919164420.79171.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <15273.20463.338247.838687@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > My memory is that the parts were interchangable in hardware (presuming > the speed was OK) but the performance was better at a given speed > for the 68882 over the 68881. I never did any rendering on my Amigas, Yup. I've replaced many 68881s with 68882s in Sun3/50 and /60 machines when I was doing lots of raytracing with them back in '90 or so. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 21:33:38 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109200117.f8K1Hj526670@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > Maybe the /90 is 32 VUPs and the /90A is 38.8, which would make sense if the > list on DSN is off for both system. What leads me to believe the DSN listing > is in error now is I just ran a test program on a /90, 90A, /400, and /500, > and the numbers for the /90 and /90A are way off from what I'd expect if the > ratings from DSN are correct. I'm going to run some tests this weekend to > try to get better numbers. What sort of tests do you do? I would be happy to post numbers from my twin 4000-700As, my 8700 (when I have all the requisite parts), my 6000-610, my 7000-650, my 4000/VLC, my 3100/30, and any other VAXen I have lying around. I wonder if I could do a VUP test on something other than VAX and have it mean anything. Peace... Sridhar From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Wed Sep 19 21:46:51 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109192156.XAA03404@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010920124031.028bf278@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 11:56 PM 19/09/2001 +0200, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: >So I assume the "base" machine is the 8550. In a biger chasiss it is >named 8700 and with a second CPU the 8700 is called 8800? As far as I recall, the first two products were the 8700 and the 8800, the only difference was the number of CPUs (one and two respectively). There were two slower implementations (8550, 8530) that were both single CPU systems. All of these systems used either a PRO-350 or PRO-380 as the VAXconsole. Later (when all the PROs were used up?) the console was replaced with a uVAX-II and the systems renamed 88x0 (for x=1,2,3 or 4 CPUs). In a past life I used to manage a cluster that had (originally) a 11/785, 8700 and 8800. After a while we removed the 11/785 from maintenance and about a week later it died. This lead to a period where I did maintenance myself, leading to the acquisition of an 8650, 11/785, 11/780, two 8800s and an 8820. Eventually the cluster grew to two 8800s (under Digital maintenance), two 8800s and the 8820 (under Huw maintenance). I can tell you now that 8800s are great when they run and real horrors when they fail.... I can also confirm that 8800s and 8820s have different modules inside, such that you can't upgrade an 8820 to an 8840 using an 8800 :-( Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 19 22:24:37 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest Message-ID: <20010920032615.NZXE21447.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Due to the events of last week, and inclement weather, the CFCJF has been rescheduled for Sun. Sept. 30th, 9 AM. If you have any questions or need directions please contact me off-list. See ya there! Glen 0/0 From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 19 22:34:03 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109200150.f8K1orm26755@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: I'm sure Dave and I could come to an agreement. 8-) Peace... Sridhar On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > > I would rather go with a QBUS SCSI or HSDxx controller. Once I find > > > one I"ll get rid of my DSSI disks. > > > > If and when you decide to get rid of your DSSI disks, I would be only too > > happy to take them off your hands. I like DSSI. > > Sorry, Dave got here first. :-) > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 22:53:06 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Sep 19, 2001 06:48:47 PM Message-ID: <200109200353.f8K3r6C27054@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > > The VAXstation 4000/90 is a 42 VUP system and the VAX 4000/400 is a > > > > 16 VUP system, so you aren't doing too bad. I seem to recall the > > > > VAX 4000/700A is about 40 VUPs and the /705A is about 45-50 VUPs. > > > > > > The VAX CPU Summary lists these numbers: > > > > > > VS4000/90 32.8 VUPS > > > 4000/700a 40 VUPS > > > 4000/705a 45 VUPS > > > > The numbers I have are from DSN, and the 42 VUP rating for the 4000/90 feels > > right to me. > > The "VAX CPU Summary" numbers above are their SPECint92 numbers, NOT their > VUP rating. I'm glad to finally see VUP ratings for these systems. Eric, I > don't suppose you've also got any kind of full list from DSN? If not do you > happen to have info on the VS4000/90A and /96? I have the full list available from DSN, but it isn't complete. I can't post it here, though, due to it being copyrighted, but I can post VUPs for requested systems from the list, if you ask. The numbers above are the VUPs. The DSN listing for the /90 and /90A are off by 10. I got ambitious and ran some more tests. The /90 is 32-33 and the /90A is 38-39. The VAX 7730 systems at work are 150 VUPs. What's interesting when reviewing the list is to see how the bus architecture impacts the VUPs on identical CPUs. For instance the 7610 is 35 VUPs but the 6610 is only 32 VUPs. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 23:05:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Huw Davies" at Sep 20, 2001 12:46:51 PM Message-ID: <200109200405.f8K45eT27082@narnia.int.dittman.net> > >So I assume the "base" machine is the 8550. In a biger chasiss it is > >named 8700 and with a second CPU the 8700 is called 8800? > > As far as I recall, the first two products were the 8700 and the 8800, the > only difference was the number of CPUs (one and two respectively). There > were two slower implementations (8550, 8530) that were both single CPU > systems. All of these systems used either a PRO-350 or PRO-380 as the > VAXconsole. Later (when all the PROs were used up?) the console was > replaced with a uVAX-II and the systems renamed 88x0 (for x=1,2,3 or 4 CPUs). The 8700/8800 used a Pro-350 or Pro-380 as the console. Later, DEC renamed them the 8810 and 8820. Later on DEC introduced a new 8810 and 8820 that were different and could be upgraded to an 8830 or 8840. Unfortunately they aren't compatible and this leads to problems when you need to get repair parts. You need to be specific on whether your 8810 or 8820 is a -N or not. I can't remember whether the -N is the newer model or not. The easiest way to tell is whether your system has a Pro or a MicroVAX II as the console. When DEC introduced the newer models they really should have used a new model number or renamed the older models the 8710 and 8720. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 19 23:13:05 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 19, 2001 10:33:38 PM Message-ID: <200109200413.f8K4D5J27100@narnia.int.dittman.net> > What sort of tests do you do? I would be happy to post numbers from my > twin 4000-700As, my 8700 (when I have all the requisite parts), my > 6000-610, my 7000-650, my 4000/VLC, my 3100/30, and any other VAXen I have > lying around. I wonder if I could do a VUP test on something other than > VAX and have it mean anything. I have a VUP program I downloaded from somewhere, but it isn't accurate (for instance, it only calculates VUPs on one processor of an SMP system). The real VUP calculator DEC used was a set of programs. What I use for tests are a few compiles and some other programs and calculate based on results from a known VUP rating. I've also tried these tests on an Alpha, but that's apples-to-oranges so there's really not any correlation. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jpero at sympatico.ca Wed Sep 19 19:23:19 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Found this on city area newsgroup. In-Reply-To: References: from "Matt London" at Sep 5, 1 02:59:35 pm Message-ID: <20010920041551.FZPT5959.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Hi, Not me, if you wish to, contact him but I wondered why what this is going on? This is unusual. Cheers, Wizard Path: news20.bellglobal.com!nf1.bellglobal.com!nf3.bellglobal.com!cpk-news-h ub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newshub2.home.com!news.home.com!news4. rdc1.on.home.com.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Subject: Cash for your Digital Equipment Corp PDP minicomputer Newsgroups: kingston.forsale Lines: 39 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:50:38 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 24.112.89.108 X-Complaints-To: abuse@home.net X-Trace: news4.rdc1.on.home.com 1000903838 24.112.89.108 (Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:50:38 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 05:50:38 PDT Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster Xref: nf1.bellglobal.com kingston.forsale:47378 Hi folks, I'm looking for Digital Equipment Corporation PDP minicomputers for a private collection. I'll pay cash and pay for transportation if you have one that's taking up space. Please email me with location and price. I'm specifically looking for the following models: PDP-8's: F, I, L, S PDP-9's: (any) PDP-10's: (any) PDP-11's: /15, /20, /35, /40, /45, /50, /55, /70 PDP-12 PDP-15 You can tell which ones these are because they'll have a front panel with lights and switches -- lots of lights and lots of switches :-) I'm also interested in parts, peripherals (like tape drives), software, documentation, DEC books, etc... I'm also in need of DECtapes/LINCTapes (the "cute" 4-inch TU-55 reels); TK-50 tapes, and could use a microVAX II with VMS for reference purposes. If you have something that you'd like to trade for instead of cash, please see my webpages at: http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/spares.html (spare modules) http://www.parse.com/~pdp8/books.html (inventory of PDP-books) Thanks in advance! Cheers, =RK == Robert Krten, PARSE Software Devices; email my initials at parse dot com Consulting, Systems Architecture / Design, Drivers, Training, QNX 4 & QNX 6 Check out our QNX 4 and QNX 6 books at http://www.parse.com/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Wed Sep 19 23:26:10 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109200353.f8K3r6C27054@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919212506.02329eb0@209.185.79.193> At 10:53 PM 9/19/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > but I can post VUPs for requested systems from the list, if you ask. Ok, what are the VUPs rating of the MicroVAX 3400, 3500, 3800, and 4000/200 (KA640, KA650, KA655, and KA660) --Chuck From fernande at internet1.net Wed Sep 19 23:25:23 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Organization tips? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <3BA96FB3.CE6409CD@internet1.net> Piles, stacks, some shelving, and those plastic storage boxes that can be bought at Meijers or Walmart, usually made by Contico or RubberMaid. I have four of the boxes that probably could be put underneath a bed. One for external cables, one for Apple // stuff, one for internal cables and boards, and another box for brackets, block off plates, fans, etc. Thats all PC stuff, with the Apple // exception. I have another smaller plastic box for stuff too, plus two of those flat "tackle box" type boxes for screws and small odds and ends. I have a lot of stuff scattered about too. Usually becasue they are partially done projects. I'm working on this, However. Most of by bare chips are in the cardboard boxes that checks come in. I only have memory, and processors, However. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Chuck McManis wrote: > > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers alive? > --Chuck From vance at ikickass.org Thu Sep 20 00:04:11 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109200353.f8K3r6C27054@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > The numbers above are the VUPs. The DSN listing for the /90 and /90A are off > by 10. I got ambitious and ran some more tests. The /90 is 32-33 and the > /90A is 38-39. The VAX 7730 systems at work are 150 VUPs. Makes sense. Do you know if the 7650 is faster than the 7730 or not? > What's interesting when reviewing the list is to see how the bus architecture > impacts the VUPs on identical CPUs. For instance the 7610 is 35 VUPs but the > 6610 is only 32 VUPs. Are they indeed identical? Down to the clock speed? I knew Laserbus was faster than XMI, but I didn't know the difference was this wide. Peace... Sridhar From willik at verizon.net Wed Sep 19 14:13:45 2001 From: willik at verizon.net (Willi Kusche) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi! On 20-Sep-01, Don Maslin wrote: >Look in `SIMTEL/SIGM/VOL000/VOL081', or thereabouts. It is listed as TP >and is available as ASM, PAS, or COM. That's a text processor but it's not "TeX". Willi -- Willi Kusche WilliK@verizon.net /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / No HTML/RTF in email X No Word docs in email / \ Respect open standards From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 20 00:50:08 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 19, 2001 09:26:10 PM Message-ID: <200109200550.f8K5o8d27298@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 10:53 PM 9/19/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > > but I can post VUPs for requested systems from the list, if you ask. > > Ok, what are the VUPs rating of the > MicroVAX 3400, 3500, 3800, and 4000/200 (KA640, KA650, KA655, and > KA660) Here there are, plus a couple of extras: System VUPS 3200 2.7 3300/3400 2.4 3500/3600 2.7 3800/3900 3.8 4000/200 5.0 4000/300 8.0 4000/400 16.0 4000/500 24.0 4000/600 32.0 -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 20 00:51:52 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: Found this on city area newsgroup. In-Reply-To: <20010920041551.FZPT5959.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> from "jpero@sympatico.ca" at Sep 20, 2001 12:23:19 AM Message-ID: <200109200551.f8K5pqF27307@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Not me, if you wish to, contact him but I wondered why what this is > going on? This is unusual. >... > Subject: Cash for your Digital Equipment Corp PDP minicomputer > Newsgroups: kingston.forsale >... I've seen him post this in dfw.forsale as well. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Sep 20 04:53:59 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:41 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers v s. Classic Computing) Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066133@exc-reo1> Bill Pechter wrote: > Actually much of the 11/780 microcode is in rom. > The stuff loaded from RX01 is mostly bug fixes to the rom code. > The patches went into the Writeable Control Store board. The VAX-11/750 did the same thing (IIRC the first microcode patch required a large number of roms to be changed by field service ... the control store was redesigned to allow patchable code a-la 780). > The 11/785 went to completely RAM loaded microcode. > The 11/780 did have an optional second User Writeable Control Store > board. In one or other of the DTJ articles, the development of the MicroVAX II is described. They used the VAX-11/730 with new microcode to simulate a MicroVAX II: the 11/730 was *completely* soft. Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Sep 20 05:04:23 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066134@exc-reo1> jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: >There is the 8600 (aka 11/790) listed as a SBI machine. That's correct. It was going to be known as the VAX-11/790 until someone changed their mind (it was very late, so they had plenty of time to play with the name!). >There is no reference to the 8700. The VAX 8700 is a single processor VAX 8800. >The 8800 is listed as: > Basically an 8550 processor in a bigger box with space for additional > processors to make it into an 8820 or 8840 No. The Nautilus family started out as the single processor VAX 8700 which could have a few more (or many more, I forget) cards added to become the dual processor VAX 8800. The VAX 8550 was a VAX 8700 in a (big) cab that could *not* be upgraded to a VAX 8800. The VAX 8500 was a VAX 8550 with microcode deliberately slugged to slow it down. This was soon followed by a microcode update that removed the NOPs ... *all* 8500s were supposed to be upgraded and the machine was renamed the VAX 8530. The processor(s) live(d) on the NMI bus (Nautilus Memory Interconnect, I assume). The I/O bus was the VAXBI. This is in contrast to the VAX 8200/8300 which came out at the same time and used the VAXBI as their system bus as well as teh I/O bus. >The 8550 is listed: > XMI processor/memory backplane with VAXBI I/O XMI is wrong ... it's NMI. The VAX 6000 series was the first family (IIRC) to use the XMI. >So I assume the "base" machine is the 8550. In a biger chasiss it is >named 8700 and with a second CPU the 8700 is called 8800? Yes, that's a good summary but don't forget the runt of the litter, the VAX 8500 (which rapidly became the VAX 8530). Antonio From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Thu Sep 20 05:10:56 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066135@exc-reo1> Huw Davies [mailto:Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au] > systems. All of these systems used either a PRO-350 or PRO-380 as the > VAXconsole. Later (when all the PROs were used up?) the console was > replaced with a uVAX-II and the systems renamed 88x0 (for > x=1,2,3 or 4 CPUs). Actually, the Nautilus family underwent a slight redesign (or possibly a major redesign) and became the Polarstar family. This was the VAX 8810 (1 cpu) through to the VAX 8840 (4 cpu). Up to 2 CPUs per cab, max 2 cabs for a full system. The system bus was renamed from NMI to PMI (and presumably underwent some changes). The PRO console was replaced with a MicroVAX II. There was some confusion about the 8700 and 8800 machines and so they were (IIRC) renamed VAX 8810-N and VAX 8800-N. I never saw one of these so I don't know whether they were real VAX 8700 and VAX 8800 or whether they were a VAX 8810/VAX 8820 but with a PRO console ( or even a MicroVAX II console!). The maintenance manual for the Nautilus series was online at http://208.190.133.201/decimages/moremanuals.htm but that seems to have slipped two months backwards in a time warp and all that has vanished! I've never seen a similar manual for the Polarstar series, but I have seen the corresponding lists of modules and they did look quite different to Nautilus IIRC. Antonio From hansp at aconit.org Thu Sep 20 08:00:23 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: <20010919183322.U75891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <3BA9E867.7060200@aconit.org> Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > What physical format would this project assume? I can think of several > right off hand: > > * A card that emulates CPU/memory and plugs into the (Uni|Q)bus of > existing machines. > * A box that sits inside a PDP-11 cabinet and replaces the entire bus and > all of the cards. > * A hand-held, battery-powered unit similar to a Game Boy. > > It's the third idea that seems the coolest to me. Build it low-power > enough to run on a few batteries. Give it a front panel with switches and > LEDs for the processor and emulated peripherals. Add a serial link (or > maybe even a Zip disk) for transferring files to/from another computer. > It would be the ultimate toy. Just think of all the flavors it could be > made in. So do it with an Agenda, a Linux powered PDA. The project is completeley open source so all details of the hardware are available. Its CPU is a 64 bit MIPS architecture, it has an LCD screen with touch panel input, 16Mb of flash and iirc 8Mb RAM at a cost of about USD 250. -- HBP From RCini at congressfinancial.com Thu Sep 20 08:03:53 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Altair floppy controller Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879E13@MAIL10> Hello, all: Work on the Altair32 emulator is progressing and I'm up to getting the floppy controller code working, but I've run into a snag. Has anyone ever used this controller? Does anyone know if it has a BIOS or something *other* than the 256-byte bootrom? I disassembled the bootrom that I borrowed from the Elena Altair simulator and it seems to reference addresses outside its execution range. Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From salo at Xtrmntr.org Thu Sep 20 08:12:02 2001 From: salo at Xtrmntr.org (salo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919165207.0492b360@enigma> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919165207.0492b360@enigma> Message-ID: <20010920151202.E19220@Xtrmntr.org> hi, On Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 04:59:48PM -0400, Dan Veeneman wrote: > I've got four DG AV 4300's sitting in the next room. Each of them has a QIC > tape drive. I got them without documentation and I haven't had time yet to > even boot them up. > > If someone has instructions on how to break into root I'd be happy to try it > out, and/or if there's a way to read the NVRAM without booting the OS I'll > be happy to try that, too. after pressing 'on/off' button, during startup hold 'reset' button on the back side, it will fall into firmware. then you should be able to boot into single user mode from harddisk typing: b ncsc(sd(0),0) -s this worked fine for me, i had the same problem some time ago. ncsc is scsi controller, if you are not sure which one you have, you could try to run tests in firmware, it will show it to you. (i am not sure if 4300 is not using icsc one) i have AV 530 and AV 4300, but no OS at this time (i am waiting for DG/UX media). if i could help later, i'll be glad to do it. > BTW, I'd love to trade the 4300's for classic HP gear... what about donate one to NetBSD m88k-port developers (work is in progress)? :) btw. i have another problem. i have Sony GDM-1601/8 monitor (shipped by Data General with own logo) connected to my AV 530 with graphics card by 3 BNC RGB cable made from standard 50ohm coaxial cables (i know there should be 75ohm ones, but i just wanted to try it). i am not sure if 3 cables are enough because that monitor has 5 BNC connectors (2 additional ones for horizontal and vertical sync). i tried to find any docs but without success (no info about 1601/8, just 1601 and 1601/6). problem is that picture on monitor looks like with higher frequency than monitor can handle or without some sync, lines are shifted to each other and it is shaking a bit. i hoped that sync on green was enogh but now i am not sure. graphics card i have is some data general 8 B/P GRAPHICS CARD shipped with that AV 530 (monitor was probably used with another machine). any help will be appreciated.. thanks bye, -- -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ / -- -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / \ -- From engdahl at cle.ab.com Thu Sep 20 08:49:21 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (handheld PDP-11) In-Reply-To: <20010919183322.U75891-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <004801c141db$0cf439e0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp > > * A hand-held, battery-powered unit similar to a Game Boy. > > It's the third idea that seems the coolest to me. Build it low-power > enough to run on a few batteries. Give it a front panel with switches and > LEDs for the processor and emulated peripherals. Add a serial link (or > maybe even a Zip disk) for transferring files to/from another computer. > It would be the ultimate toy. Just think of all the flavors it could be > made in. > > I'd love to take one of those to class with me. The other CS majors, with > their PalmPilots and their MP3 playaers and their TI-92s, would be > absolutely blown away. > > -- > Jeffrey S. Sharp > jss@subatomix.com There is a port of an older version of simh to Windows CE. It runs on my Jornada 430, but I have not yet been able to boot the RT-11 floppy image. Look for pdpCE, I think. There's a link to it from somewhere in my web pages. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl/pdp-11.htm From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 20 11:04:22 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <200109191749.f8JHnlR25078@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010920110422.S19415@mrbill.net> On Wed, Sep 19, 2001 at 03:40:45PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > The 8700 and the 8600 are very different machines. The 8700 uses > VAXBI, and is mounted in a chasiss similar in size to that of the > 8600. I don't think there's any XMI in there. > Incidentally, the 8700 can be turned into an 8800 by plugging a > second CPU card set into the machine. > -Dave Speaking of which, anybody know where I can get a decent desktop VAX to play with again? VLC or better... Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 20 11:11:49 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Found this on city area newsgroup. In-Reply-To: <20010920041551.FZPT5959.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <20010920041551.FZPT5959.tomts14-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010920111149.T19415@mrbill.net> On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:23:19AM +0000, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > Hi, > Not me, if you wish to, contact him but I wondered why what this is > going on? This is unusual. > Cheers, Just a collector; he posts this every few months. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 20 11:43:28 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010920110422.S19415@mrbill.net> References: <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> <200109191749.f8JHnlR25078@narnia.int.dittman.net> <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <15272.62653.275088.846630@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: >Speaking of which, anybody know where I can get a decent desktop >VAX to play with again? VLC or better... > >Bill There is a VLC on eBay right now. VAXstation 4000's are up there all the time. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mranalog at home.com Thu Sep 20 11:53:45 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel Message-ID: <3BAA1F19.768E543@home.com> "Bill Sudbrink" said: > I brought this up some time ago, but never > got a satisfactory answer... > > When I use the above combination (regardless > of CPU board), while the system in general > works fine, the deposit/examine functionality > of the front panel stops working. Somebody > said they knew of a fix, but then never posted > anything else. I've looked at the schematics > (I have them for both items) and can't for the > life of me see anything that would conflict. > > Any help greatly appreciated. Here is some of the IMSAI front panel gottas: MWRITE pin 68 - This signal needs to be generated by one source and one source only. It is generated by the IMSAI front panel (by a deposit) so make sure this signal is disabled on the CPU board when used with the IMSAI front panel. PROT & UNPROT pins 20 & 70 - The IEEE 696 standard says that these pins will be at ground. Some motherboards ground these lines. But grounding these pins on the IMSAI front panel will disable the front panel. To fix this, cut the traces, on the front panel, right at edge connector pin 20 and 70. Data Out Bus - When the IMSAI front panel does a deposit operation, it expects the the data on the Data In Bus to be reflected on the Data Out Bus. Some later CPU boards disabled the Data Out Bus to cut down on bus noise especially above 2MHz. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From jss at subatomix.com Thu Sep 20 12:55:12 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010920110422.S19415@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010920125314.R78076-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > Speaking of which, anybody know where I can get a decent desktop > VAX to play with again? Hmmm... Do you mean a VAX that sits on the desktop, or a VAX that *is* the desktop? :-D Sorry, I couldn't resist! Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From bdc at world.std.com Thu Sep 20 13:25:43 2001 From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian Chase) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: paging Brian Chase In-Reply-To: <3BA92B49.7010203@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Gunther Schadow wrote: > does anyone know where Brian Chase is? He dropped from my > radar screen about two months (or more?) ago. He used to > live in Bloomington, IN, not far from me, and we had > hauled the VAX 6420s from my workplace in spring this > year. He wanted to check out some job opportunity in > California, and then he was never seen again. Does anyone > have more recent information? His Web site still exists, > without any news however. Oh, I'm still around. Just getting settled in Los Angeles and getting back to doing work for the movie industry-- this time Sony Pictures Imageworks. Currently I'm without a VAX, but I still haven't gotten some of my stuff shipped out yet. I'm keeping my house in Indiana as a storage location for most of my larger items. -brian. --- Brian Chase | bdc@world.std.com | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ ----- As part of our development methodology, Microsoft builds a new version of Windows 2000 virtually every day. -- Microsoft. From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Sep 20 13:09:00 2001 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel In-Reply-To: Doug Coward's message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2001 09:53:45 -0700" References: <3BAA1F19.768E543@home.com> Message-ID: <200109201809.f8KI90f00251@daemonweed.reanimators.org> Doug Coward wrote: > PROT & UNPROT pins 20 & 70 - The IEEE 696 standard > says that these pins will be at ground. Some > motherboards ground these lines. But grounding > these pins on the IMSAI front panel will disable > the front panel. To fix this, cut the traces, > on the front panel, right at edge connector > pin 20 and 70. I'm thinking that some CPU boards expect the front panel to ground one of these signals when the panel is putting something on the data bus via the panel connector (and the CPU board should therefore use the data bus on the panel connector instead of the one on the motherboard). Maybe I am confusing this with some other signal? I ran into this in 1989 with a CCS Z80 board and no-name chassis with apparent 696 motherboard. Took me a while to figure out why it wasn't coming up. -Frank McConnell From vance at ikickass.org Thu Sep 20 13:34:07 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109200413.f8K4D5J27100@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > What sort of tests do you do? I would be happy to post numbers from my > > twin 4000-700As, my 8700 (when I have all the requisite parts), my > > 6000-610, my 7000-650, my 4000/VLC, my 3100/30, and any other VAXen I have > > lying around. I wonder if I could do a VUP test on something other than > > VAX and have it mean anything. > > I have a VUP program I downloaded from somewhere, but it isn't accurate (for > instance, it only calculates VUPs on one processor of an SMP system). The > real VUP calculator DEC used was a set of programs. Is it no longer available? No one has it? > What I use for tests are a few compiles and some other programs and calculate > based on results from a known VUP rating. Cool. This depends on using multithreaded apps, though, right? > I've also tried these tests on an Alpha, but that's apples-to-oranges so > there's really not any correlation. I was thinking of something even more different. I was thinking of calculating a VUP rating for my IBM S/390 G5. Peace... Sridhar From dec.parts at verizon.net Thu Sep 20 13:41:17 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? Message-ID: <3BAA384D.1899@verizon.net> Hello Salo, > btw. i have another problem. i have Sony GDM-1601/8 monitor > (shipped by Data General with own logo) connected to my AV 530 > with graphics card by 3 BNC RGB cable made from standard 50ohm > coaxial cables (i know there should be 75ohm ones, but i just > wanted to try it). i am not sure if 3 cables are enough because > that monitor has 5 BNC connectors (2 additional ones for horizontal > and vertical sync). i tried to find any docs but without success > (no info about 1601/8, just 1601 and 1601/6). problem is that > picture on monitor looks like with higher frequency than monitor > can handle or without some sync, lines are shifted to each other > and it is shaking a bit. i hoped that sync on green was enogh but > now i am not sure. graphics card i have is some data general 8 > B/P GRAPHICS CARD shipped with that AV 530 (monitor was probably > used with another machine). > any help will be appreciated.. thanks If you don't mind experimenting, under the hood, and can do so without electrocuting yourself, I believe on the left side of the monitor you will find some adjustments, some of which might be labeled, horizontal frequency, horizontal phase, horizontal size, horizontal center, etc. You might try tweaking some of those and seeing if that stabilizes the image. Or you might try a 5 BNC variety Sony multisync, just hooking up R, G, and B. or if you have a multisync with a HD15M pigtail, I have hooked these up by coming out of computers with BNC video out by connecting to a BNC to HD15 cable hooked up so that the BNC's are to the computer, then used a HD15F-HD15F gender changer to join the BNC to HD15 cable to the monitor's HD15M pigtail. Just some experimental options to possibly try. Sincerely, Bennett From emu at ecubics.com Thu Sep 20 14:08:49 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919212506.02329eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <3BAA3EC1.F44EBA11@ecubics.com> Chuck McManis wrote: > > At 10:53 PM 9/19/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > > but I can post VUPs for requested systems from the list, if you ask. > > Ok, what are the VUPs rating of the > MicroVAX 3400, 3500, 3800, and 4000/200 (KA640, KA650, KA655, and > KA660) http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html ;-) From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 20 14:19:32 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Willi Kusche wrote: > Hi! > > On 20-Sep-01, Don Maslin wrote: > > >Look in `SIMTEL/SIGM/VOL000/VOL081', or thereabouts. It is listed as TP > >and is available as ASM, PAS, or COM. > > That's a text processor but it's not "TeX". You are quite right. Sorry, in some haste I noted the expression TEX in the source and mistook it for the name rather than the file extension. - don > Willi > > -- > Willi Kusche > WilliK@verizon.net > > /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign > \ / No HTML/RTF in email > X No Word docs in email > / \ Respect open standards > > From dec.parts at verizon.net Thu Sep 20 14:53:56 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? References: <3BAA384D.1899@verizon.net> <20010920212017.F19220@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: <3BAA4954.45A3@verizon.net> Hello Salo, > is there any 3 BNC -> 5 BNC cable out there? maybe that would > solve my problem. I have never seen anything like this. While it is easy enough to join two or three signals ( Software Integrators and Mirage, the makers of Fixed Frequency Video Cards for PC's used to do it by soldering a couple of resistors on the back of their video cards, one from H to green, and the other from V to green, taking care of sync type, while frequency timings were still taken care of in their customized video bios's ), it would be way beyond my ( practical only, and limited at that ) level of knowledge to know how to strip the sync signals off the green line, and individually separating them at that, to properly make that signal into a separate sync video signal. Sincerely, Bennett salo wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 02:41:17PM -0400, Info from LSI wrote: > > If you don't mind experimenting, under the hood, and can do so > > without electrocuting yourself, I believe on the left side of > > the monitor you will find some adjustments, some of which might > > be labeled, horizontal frequency, horizontal phase, horizontal > > size, horizontal center, etc. You might try tweaking some of > > those and seeing if that stabilizes the image. > > i tried these already. some little changes occur but nothing big and nothing > which could indicate better state - just change. i do not think this is the > way it will work. > > i am not familiar with so old monitors (i was 10 and knew nothing about any > other hardware than PC and 8bits at the time it was constructed ;)) is there > any 3 BNC -> 5 BNC cable out there? maybe that would solve my problem. > > > Or you might try a 5 BNC variety Sony multisync, just hooking > > up R, G, and B. > > > > or if you have a multisync with a HD15M pigtail, I have hooked > > these up by coming out of computers with BNC video out by > > connecting to a BNC to HD15 cable hooked up so that the BNC's > > are to the computer, then used a HD15F-HD15F gender changer to > > join the BNC to HD15 cable to the monitor's HD15M pigtail. > > yes, i could use another monitor, but i want to use this one.. it is looking > fine and i do not want to throw it out :( > > > Just some experimental options to possibly try. > > thanks anyway > > regards, > > -- > -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- > -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ / -- > -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- > -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / \ -- From vance at ikickass.org Thu Sep 20 14:58:25 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BAA3EC1.F44EBA11@ecubics.com> Message-ID: That page is inaccurate, and is missing a lot of VUP ratings. Peace... Sridhar On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > At 10:53 PM 9/19/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > > > but I can post VUPs for requested systems from the list, if you ask. > > > > Ok, what are the VUPs rating of the > > MicroVAX 3400, 3500, 3800, and 4000/200 (KA640, KA650, KA655, and > > KA660) > > http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html > > ;-) > From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Sep 20 15:39:08 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: someone grab that TU81+ in St Louis please? Message-ID: <3BAA53EC.7000004@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, a TU81+ (9-track tape drive, the latest and best that DEC came up with) is up on ebay with only 17 hours to go. It is in St. Louis. So, Buckaroo may want to get it. I think someone should drop in a bid on it just so it is not lost in the dumpster. I have already two of those outstanding (still need to actually go and get them.) The TU81+ works nice with a VAX 6000 or a UNIBUS vax. Not sure the smaller 4000s have an interface, they probably do. The interface is the KLESI on the BI bus (it's actually a UNIBUS adapter with the TU device driver right on the same card and no way to connect more UNIBUS.) http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1275105774 -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From red at bears.org Thu Sep 20 16:03:15 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? In-Reply-To: <20010920151202.E19220@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, salo wrote: > after pressing 'on/off' button, during startup hold 'reset' button on > the back side, it will fall into firmware. Generally you can press this 'reset' button at any time; it behaves more like an 'interrupt'. In practise it's best to at least let the system progress past self-test number 3 before pressing it, or not going near the button at any time the OS is running. > then you should be able to boot into single user mode from harddisk > typing: > > b ncsc(sd(0),0) -s the format here is: ctrlr(dev(instance,target,lun)) file options ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ | | | | | | | | | | | | | a runlevel may be specified | | | | | | such as '-s' or '-3'. | | | | | | initdefault for a newly-installed | | | | | | DG-UX is runlevel 's' (single-user) | | | | | | | | | | | traditionally, 'root:/dgux' | | | | | an alternate file may be specified | | | | | | | | | default '0' | | | | | | | SCSI target (ID) of desired boot device | | | | | controller instance number. traditionally '0' | | | 'sd' for SCSI disk or CD-ROM | 'st' for SCSI tape | other values for SMD or ESDI device | controller type 'insc' for workstation onboard SCSI 'ncsc' for VME SCSI other values for other controllers lun, file, and options may be omitted for default values. > btw. i have another problem. i have Sony GDM-1601/8 monitor (shipped by Data > General with own logo) connected to my AV 530 with graphics card by 3 BNC RGB > cable made from standard 50ohm coaxial cables (i know there should be 75ohm > ones, but i just wanted to try it). Probably not a good idea, the 52-ohm coaxial centre conductor has a larger diametre than that of 75-ohm coax. It's possible to damage the jacks by using the wrong able. It sounds like you have a different problem, though. You need to re-set the default vertical refresh frequency. There are two possible values---60 Hz or 72 Hz. I have some notes at home on how I was able to accomplish this. I'll send a followup later this evening. > are shifted to each other and it is shaking a bit. i hoped that sync on green > was enogh but now i am not sure. graphics card i have is some data general 8 The monitor should display nothing if it does not find a sync signal present. It seems more likely you just need to set the refresh rate. ok r. From hans at east.sun.com Thu Sep 20 16:09:06 2001 From: hans at east.sun.com (Hans Hrasna) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: FA: RARE: Heathkit ETA-3400 Memory I/O Accy Message-ID: <3BAA5AF1.2BE60245@east.sun.com> On Ebay: Heathkit ETA-3400 Memory I/O Accessory for the ET-3400 microprocessor trainer. http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1277111977 From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Sep 20 16:38:01 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? In-Reply-To: <3BAA4954.45A3@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200109202138.XAA06657@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 20 Sep, Info from LSI wrote: [3 BNC -> 5 BNC cable] > While it is easy enough to join two or three signals [...] > it would be way beyond my [...] level of knowledge > to know how to strip the sync signals off the green line To split off the CSYNC from sync on green, all you need is an comparator circuit with a switching level from 0.1V to 0.2V. But a LM1881 (dedicated sync separator) would be better. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From msell at ontimesupport.com Thu Sep 20 16:47:29 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: References: <3BAA3EC1.F44EBA11@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010920164433.00b20ec0@127.0.0.1> Here is a link to a Compaq web site that lists VUP ratings: http://www.compaq.com/alphaserver/performance/perf_by_perf_dec.html - Matt At 03:58 PM 9/20/01 -0400, you wrote: >That page is inaccurate, and is missing a lot of VUP ratings. > >Peace... Sridhar > >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, emanuel stiebler wrote: > > > Chuck McManis wrote: > > > > > > At 10:53 PM 9/19/01 -0500, Eric wrote: > > > > but I can post VUPs for requested systems from the list, if you ask. > > > > > > Ok, what are the VUPs rating of the > > > MicroVAX 3400, 3500, 3800, and 4000/200 (KA640, KA650, > KA655, and > > > KA660) > > > > http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html > > > > ;-) > > Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 20 16:42:25 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010920125314.R78076-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <20010920110422.S19415@mrbill.net> <20010920125314.R78076-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010920164225.L14220@mrbill.net> On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 12:55:12PM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Hmmm... Do you mean a VAX that sits on the desktop, or a VAX that *is* the > desktop? :-D *on* the desktop. I've grown out of my "computers bigger than I am" phase - someone picked up the VAX 6000 about a month ago, and the city hauled off the empty 4/690MP backplane/blower assembly yesterday during "bulky trash week". Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From wonko at arkham.ws Thu Sep 20 16:46:27 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: someone grab that TU81+ in St Louis please? In-Reply-To: <3BAA53EC.7000004@aurora.regenstrief.org>; from gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org on Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 03:39:08PM -0500 References: <3BAA53EC.7000004@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010920174627.C9136@wintermute.arkham.ws> > to actually go and get them.) The TU81+ works nice with a > VAX 6000 or a UNIBUS vax. Not sure the smaller 4000s have > an interface, they probably do. The interface is the KLESI there is a KLESI-SA which is a dual-width QBus card. i've got one here that will one day get hooked up to a TU81+ (after i go and rescue it of course) and when that happens i'll report here as to how well it works. -brian From rachael_ at gmx.net Thu Sep 20 18:02:34 2001 From: rachael_ at gmx.net (Jacob Dahl Pind) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Amiga 3000 problem Message-ID: <1038.664T1737T23041rachael_@gmx.net> on 19-Sep-01 10:41:29, Willi Kusche wrote: >Hi! >On 19-Sep-01, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>I _think_ the Amiga 3000/16 had a 16Mhz 68881 and the A3000/25 >>had a 25Mhz 68882, but I could easily be mistaken. > I'm composing this message on an Amiga 3000 that had its motherboard >upgraded from 16 Mhz to 25 Mhz. Ever since the upgrade I occasionally get a >video crash that makes the screen unreadable. But, the system keeps running >OK. For example, if that video crash were to occur while I'm typing this >message, I've learned that hitting right-Amiga and 'S' will save the message >so I can finish the message after re-booting the A3000. Sounds like the two PAL ic on the left side, under any zorro cards you may have installed, they have a nasty habit of running hot, and makingen the screen unreadable. I changes mine and at the sametime removede the batteri for the RTC as it was leaking. Regards Jacob Dahl Pind -- CBM, Amiga,Vintage hardware collector Email: Rachael_@gmx.net url: http://rachael.dyndns.org From dec.parts at verizon.net Thu Sep 20 17:19:14 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: VAX to play with Message-ID: <3BAA6B62.4564@verizon.net> Hi Bill, I don't mind putting my VAXstation 4000/60's, "box only", up on eBay, starting at $1.00, under their "Auction for America" program where eBay donates the selling price to the NYC WTC Disaster Fund. 8 Mb on the board. Both checked to power up and generate video output. You scrub the magic marker markings off the front which is easy to do with isopropol alcohol and comet. However, regardless of how eBay wants to run that program, packaging materials ( low cost because I get them wholesale ) and shipping costs ( low cost because I ship FEDEX Ground at the FEDEX Center ) would have to be covered, else buyer picks up. But with "buyer picks up" terms, it should sell dirt cheap. Sincerely, Bennett > Speaking of which, anybody know where I can get a decent desktop > VAX to play with again? VLC or better... > Bill From buckaroo at liveround.com Thu Sep 20 17:31:15 2001 From: buckaroo at liveround.com (J. Buck Caldwell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: someone grab that TU81+ in St Louis please? References: <3BAA53EC.7000004@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <3BAA6E33.389B08A3@liveround.com> OK - I put down a $10 minimum on it, so it at least won't end up in the trash. However, I don't want it - if anyone does, it's yours for $10 and pickup (unless you REALLY want to pay freight). I'll give you all a month or two to decide - then it's parts. (sorry - space is a premium right now, I'm using a friend's garage for storage, and he'd really like to start working on his car). -- -Buckaroo From steve at kostecke.net Thu Sep 20 17:32:17 2001 From: steve at kostecke.net (Steve Kostecke) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: CP/M TEX wanted In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 Sep 2001 12:19:32 PDT." Message-ID: Don Maslin said: >On Thu, 20 Sep 2001, Willi Kusche wrote: > >> Hi! >> >> On 20-Sep-01, Don Maslin wrote: >> >>>Look in `SIMTEL/SIGM/VOL000/VOL081', or thereabouts. It is listed as >>>TP and is available as ASM, PAS, or COM. >> >> That's a text processor but it's not "TeX". > >You are quite right. Sorry, in some haste I noted the expression TEX in >the source and mistook it for the name rather than the file extension. Your directions were dead on. I'll have to compare the docs and see how close the mark-up is. BTW: I also fond a troff implementation in SIMTEL/SIGM/ -- Steve Kostecke /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / Public Key at gopher://kostecke.net X Against HTML in e-mail & news or `finger steve@kostecke.net` / \ Against MS attachments From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 20 17:43:40 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Matthew Sell" at Sep 20, 2001 04:47:29 PM Message-ID: <200109202243.f8KMhff29668@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Here is a link to a Compaq web site that lists VUP ratings: Those aren't VUP ratings. It isn't even accurate, since the heading is "VAX system performance comparison--performance listing" and there are Alpha systems mixed in. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Thu Sep 20 17:49:29 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: someone grab that TU81+ in St Louis please? References: <3BAA53EC.7000004@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010920174627.C9136@wintermute.arkham.ws> Message-ID: <3BAA7279.2090804@aurora.regenstrief.org> Brian Hechinger wrote: >>to actually go and get them.) The TU81+ works nice with a >>VAX 6000 or a UNIBUS vax. Not sure the smaller 4000s have >>an interface, they probably do. The interface is the KLESI >> > > there is a KLESI-SA which is a dual-width QBus card. i've got > one here that will one day get hooked up to a TU81+ (after i go > and rescue it of course) and when that happens i'll report here > as to how well it works. O.K., that means that Brian Hechinger wants it and Buck agreed to take it into custody for a short time, should that be necessary. Now comes the question: Brian, you seem to be planning on driving this thing home from St Louis? Are you planning to come through the Pittsburgh area some time, I'd suppose so if you go to St. Louis from wherever you are (I can never remember, need to put up a map with little flags for all the VAXen-friends' locations :-). This could be an oportunity to meet in Pittsburg at Isildur's VAX-party. Where do you get those trucks from? At the remote possibility that you have a truck and drive it all the way to STL, I'd kindly ask if you could volunteer the truck for some pickup in the Pittsburgh area? I plan on getting my own hands dirty, but I don't have a truck. Even if you'd rent one, a shared deal could be cheaper. regards -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From wonko at arkham.ws Thu Sep 20 17:53:55 2001 From: wonko at arkham.ws (Brian Hechinger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: someone grab that TU81+ in St Louis please? In-Reply-To: <3BAA7279.2090804@aurora.regenstrief.org>; from gunther@aurora.regenstrief.org on Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 05:49:29PM -0500 References: <3BAA53EC.7000004@aurora.regenstrief.org> <20010920174627.C9136@wintermute.arkham.ws> <3BAA7279.2090804@aurora.regenstrief.org> Message-ID: <20010920185355.H7357@wintermute.arkham.ws> > O.K., that means that Brian Hechinger wants it and Buck > agreed to take it into custody for a short time, should > that be necessary. oh no. not at all. i was just offering information. the TU81+ that i am getting and this TU81 that buck is picking up are two different boxes. as much as i'd love to drive to STL i don't really have the time right now. although i may in the future. so i could theoretically pick it up in the future if no-one else snags it. i am interested in getting out to pittsburg for the vaxenparty however, but don't know what kind of truckage i'll have at the time. speaking of which. when is the vaxenparty to be? i do need to cover most of western pa and parts of ohio picking stuff up. i'll contact you in private and we'll work out a shared truck deal depending where you need stuff picked up and delivered. -brian From dec.parts at verizon.net Thu Sep 20 17:58:13 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: VAX to play with References: <3BAA6B62.4564@verizon.net> <20010920172256.M14220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <3BAA7485.643A@verizon.net> Hello Bill, The URL is ... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1277142640 Sincerely, Bennett Bill Bradford wrote: > > Please ! Let me know the auction number as soon as it goes up. > > Bill > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2001 at 06:19:14PM -0400, Info from LSI wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > > > I don't mind putting my VAXstation 4000/60's, "box > > only", up on eBay, starting at $1.00, under their > > "Auction for America" program where eBay donates the > > selling price to the NYC WTC Disaster Fund. 8 Mb on the > > board. Both checked to power up and generate video output. > > You scrub the magic marker markings off the front which > > is easy to do with isopropol alcohol and comet. However, > > regardless of how eBay wants to run that program, packaging > > materials ( low cost because I get them wholesale ) and > > shipping costs ( low cost because I ship FEDEX Ground at > > the FEDEX Center ) would have to be covered, else buyer > > picks up. But with "buyer picks up" terms, it should sell > > dirt cheap. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Bennett > > > > > > > Speaking of which, anybody know where I can get a decent desktop > > > VAX to play with again? VLC or better... > > > > > Bill > > -- > Bill Bradford > mrbill@mrbill.net > Austin, TX From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 20 18:51:47 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <3BAA3EC1.F44EBA11@ecubics.com> References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010919212506.02329eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010920165008.00a894e0@mcmanis.com> At 12:08 PM 9/20/01, Emmanuel replied to my question with : >http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html >;-) (the VAX hardware reference), however this reference is unreliable when it comes to VUPs ratings. Eric has confirmed that it was correct on the ones I asked about, we already had the 4000/100 vs 4000/90 vs 4000/700 discussions :-) --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 20 20:03:29 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "Chuck McManis" at Sep 20, 2001 04:51:47 PM Message-ID: <200109210103.f8L13Tr30019@narnia.int.dittman.net> > At 12:08 PM 9/20/01, Emmanuel replied to my question with : > >http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html > >;-) > > (the VAX hardware reference), however this reference is unreliable when it > comes to VUPs ratings. > Eric has confirmed that it was correct on the ones I asked about, we > already had the 4000/100 vs 4000/90 vs 4000/700 discussions :-) There are some inaccuracies, though. For instance, the /90 and /90A are shown to have the same TPS, but the /90A is faster. The numbers for the /90 and /90A are also wrong as far as I can tell (the numbers more closely match what I first posted rather than what I determined experimentally). There's also a lot of holes in the list. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From emu at ecubics.com Thu Sep 20 21:04:24 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... References: <200109210103.f8L13Tr30019@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BAAA028.BBEC4F69@ecubics.com> So, please write to this guys ( abs@netbsd.org ) to change it, to complete it, whatever. It took a while to get it where it is, but without any input, it stays like it is ! cheers Eric Dittman wrote: > > > At 12:08 PM 9/20/01, Emmanuel replied to my question with : > > >http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/sections.html > > >;-) > > > > (the VAX hardware reference), however this reference is unreliable when it > > comes to VUPs ratings. > > Eric has confirmed that it was correct on the ones I asked about, we > > already had the 4000/100 vs 4000/90 vs 4000/700 discussions :-) > > There are some inaccuracies, though. For instance, the /90 and /90A > are shown to have the same TPS, but the /90A is faster. The numbers > for the /90 and /90A are also wrong as far as I can tell (the numbers > more closely match what I first posted rather than what I determined > experimentally). > > There's also a lot of holes in the list. > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jhellige at earthlink.net Thu Sep 20 21:02:52 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: cool find... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tonight I was pretty lucky...I happened to come across a near perfect copy of Charles K. Adams' book 'How To Build Your Own Working Microcomputer'. It's hardback and copyright 1980. It looks to have a lot of good info in it. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From emu at ecubics.com Thu Sep 20 21:13:50 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... References: <200109210103.f8L13Tr30019@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BAAA25E.44C5C197@ecubics.com> Eric Dittman wrote: > > There are some inaccuracies, though. For instance, the /90 and /90A > are shown to have the same TPS, but the /90A is faster. The numbers > for the /90 and /90A are also wrong as far as I can tell (the numbers > more closely match what I first posted rather than what I determined > experimentally). One remark here. The TPS numbers not always seem to be "logical". Please notice, that a lot of the benchmark is influenced by the I/o & disk system. So a faster CPU not always has a better TPS number. You can see it many times if you really look into it. And, the 4000/90 & /90a are workstations. So TPS is not of so much value to this ... > There's also a lot of holes in the list. So fill them ;-) cheers From rcini at optonline.net Thu Sep 20 21:29:54 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: HP Oscilloscope 3563A Message-ID: Hi: I came across on of these and don't know exactly what it is. It doesn't look like any OScope that I've ever seen. Any HP gurus out there that recognize it? Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 20 22:01:57 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: from "emanuel stiebler" at Sep 20, 2001 08:13:50 PM Message-ID: <200109210301.f8L31vk30207@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > There are some inaccuracies, though. For instance, the /90 and /90A > > are shown to have the same TPS, but the /90A is faster. The numbers > > for the /90 and /90A are also wrong as far as I can tell (the numbers > > more closely match what I first posted rather than what I determined > > experimentally). > > One remark here. The TPS numbers not always seem to be "logical". Please > notice, > that a lot of the benchmark is influenced by the I/o & disk system. So a > faster CPU not always > has a better TPS number. You can see it many times if you really look > into it. That's true, but the /90A has quite a bit more cache, which should influence the TPS rating. > And, the 4000/90 & /90a are workstations. So TPS is not of so much value > to this ... > > > There's also a lot of holes in the list. > > So fill them ;-) I was planning on doing that in the next few days. Standardizing will take a bit of work, though. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 20:32:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <001901c13ec6$9cb88670$2ed0d58d@fluffy> from "Blair J. Miller" at Sep 16, 1 11:45:29 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1777 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/4d8f8d49/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 21:03:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: HP Cassette Tapes In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Sep 17, 1 07:50:32 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1426 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/46162bfe/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 20:38:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen In-Reply-To: <3BA5573B.EDDF560B@home.com> from "Doug Coward" at Sep 16, 1 06:51:55 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/36f57309/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 21:07:23 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <200109181846.f8IIkFJ10143@bg-tc-ppp892.monmouth.com> from "Bill Pechter" at Sep 18, 1 02:46:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 485 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/dfe27505/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 20:41:05 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: IBM PowerStation 530 In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917160200.026e4bf0@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Sep 17, 1 04:06:23 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 729 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/8c468a27/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 21:37:12 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: who's got an M88k Aviion? In-Reply-To: <3BAA4954.45A3@verizon.net> from "Info from LSI" at Sep 20, 1 03:53:56 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1243 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/813e9054/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 20 21:45:03 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:42 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <200109182002.WAA29805@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 18, 1 10:02:18 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1328 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010921/d2276204/attachment.ksh From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Sep 20 22:32:31 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <002601c1410f$bdbb2d00$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3BAAB4CF.6C9FA52B@tiac.net> Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Pentium CPU's can't be microprogrammed, unless your Intel. Even microcode > > updates cannot replace the basic instruction set. > > That's not what I'm saying. The Pentium is probably not microprogrammed > anyhow, at least for the majority of instructions. They probably have a > microcoded front end for the messy stuff, like context switching. > > I'm adding one more level of abstraction -- microcoding on the microcoded > machine, so to speak. Like the Mini PLC-2. An assembly-level program running on a Pentium, technically speaking, is not microcode. > > If you write a program in Pentium assembly code to run PDP-11 > > instructions, you > > have just written an 'emulator', even if it does not run under windows. > > Yes, a microcoded machine is one kind of emulator. Every microcoded > architecture is an emulation. The underlying micromachine bears little > resemblance to the machine that the user sees. It's a nice distinction, and > not razor sharp. I would say that an "emulator" runs under an OS on a > machine that is still running windows, NT, Linux, or whatever. A microcoded > machine runs barefooted on the hardware, over which it has exclusive > control. Whether that hardware itself is microcoded makes no difference. An emulator does not require an operating system. An emulator is simply a program that emulates another machine, however its implemented. > > But an writing such an emulator is not 'microprogramming'. > > It is so. I don't know of any rule that says that the micromachine has to > have a particular type of architecture, or that it can't be an off-the-shelf > machine, rather than a collection of AMD 29xx parts. By definition, a microprogram runs directly at the hardware level. A Pentium is a microprogramed processor, so an assembly level program running on a microprogrammed machine cannot really be called a microprogram. > You can argue that hardware is software, or that software is hardware. It's > all logic. The distinction is pretty academic. Exactly these are terms with fairly well defined meanings! > What I am saying is that it would be possible to re-create almost any > classic architecture using much the same techniques used back in the 70's to > create the original machines. Instead of designing a custom micromachine, > you just go down to the corner store, buy a Pentium IV machine, erase the > hard drive, and throw away the disks. Now, on another machine, sit down and > write the "microcode" in x86 assembly language, load it on a floppy, and > boot the Pentium IV, which now becomes a PDP-11, 1130, CDC, or whatever. If > you copy a disk image of the target OS to the IDE hard drive, it will boot > and run just like the original machine. > I understand the concept, its called emulation. My only issue here is the terminology, not the merit of the concept. From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Sep 20 22:38:04 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Classic Computing) References: <000d01c14076$2b7040a0$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> <3BA80522.99FEBBC5@tiac.net> <3BA8A843.8C914E25@drewtech.com> Message-ID: <3BAAB61C.B75F4100@tiac.net> "Michael L. Drew" wrote: > Bob Shannon wrote: > > > Does anyone on this thread even understand microprogramming? > > > > Apparently not. > > > > Well, I understand microprogramming. I though we were speaking figuratively. > The "microprogramming" we were talking about was treating the Pentium as > a very complicated micro engine.... Which IMHO it really is. > > Using your definition every machine that has writeable microcode is "emulating" > something > else... Not at all. If a machine has a writable control store, it simply has an extensible instruction set. Its only emulation if you use that microcode to implement another processor, like the worlds fasted PDP-8, coded on an 11/60. > I recall that MIT built a native LISP machine using 2901 bit slice processors. > Wasn't > this the basis of the Symbolics machines??? Almost. MIT developed the CADR, I have one in my garage, and I serviced them at the MIT AI lab. The CADR uses a TTL cpu based on the 74S181 ALU chips. The MIT CADR became the LM2, and the Lisp Machines Inc CADR's. The LM2 begat the whole line of Symbolics machines like the 3600's, etc. > Does anyone recall the name of the 2901 based machine that could be transformed > into 8080,Z80,6800,68000, etc. I believe that it came out in the 1980's. > I have a dim memory of that machine, but can't recall its name. Wasn't it a Digital Research machine? From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Sep 20 22:50:47 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAAB917.CFD68865@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > Consider the PERQ for the moment. It has user-writeable microcode -- in > fact the only microcode in the system at power-on is a little boot PROM > that reads the rest of the microcode from the disk. > > This microcode runs on a well-documented micromachine. Which has 256 20 > bit registers, 16 ALU operations, various jumps, calls and dispatches, > and so on. > > One of the standard microcodes implements a version of the UCSD p-system > instruction set. When it is loaded, it's conventional to call the PERQ a > p-machine, and to regard p-code as the machine code of the processor. > > But, you can also consider things one level lower. The 'machine code' of > the PERQ is what is normally termed the microcode instruction set (after > all, it's perfectly possible -- and encouraged -- for users to write > programs in that instruction set). The PERQ runs an emulator (normally > called the 'microcode') for the p-machine. While the line between assembly code and microcode is often grey, when it takes more than an instruction to read main memory, chances are your at the microcode level, as with the PERQ. Microcode is used to write machine code instructions, which may do several memory cycles. This is a pretty good yardstick I think. > Now, as far as I can see, there's mothing to limit the complexity of the > micromachine. So, why can't we consider the Pentium as a micromachine[1] > (that fact that it itself contains 'microcode' is irrelevent here) and > then write a program that runs some other instruction set to run on that > 'micromachine'. It may be unconventional to call it 'microcode' but it > may not be _wrong_ to do so. I suppose this completely depends on which books you have read. > > > The main difference between the 2 systems I've described is that the PERQ > microcode (or 'p-machine emulator') and the p-code instructions are in > totally different address spaces, while the PDP-11 emulator code for the > Pentium and the PDP11 instructions are presumably in the same address > space. If this is why you can't call the PDP11 emulator code 'microcode' > then how separate do the address spaces have to be (totally separate, as > on the PERQ, logically separate (say separated by an MMU), on different > buses, ..)? Its not a matter of having a seperate address space! I've worked with microcoded machines that have the microprogram RAM mapped into the main memory address space. Most microcoded machines run several microinstructions for each main memory cycle, the clear difference being speed, and the degree of abstraction from the actual hardware. >From a hardware standpoint, the line is pretty clear. From gwynp at artware.qc.ca Thu Sep 20 22:42:16 2001 From: gwynp at artware.qc.ca (gwynp@artware.qc.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: cool find... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 21-Sep-2001 Jeff Hellige wrote: > Tonight I was pretty lucky...I happened to come across a near > perfect copy of Charles K. Adams' book 'How To Build Your Own Working > Microcomputer'. It's hardback and copyright 1980. It looks to have > a lot of good info in it. Nice. Old computer books can be very interesting. I recently picked up "Computer Peripherals That You Can Build" by Dr. Gordon Wolfe. I've spent much time going over it, reading up 8-bit data buses and how to interface with them. It then devels into what really fascinates me : switches and blinken lights! OK, so maybe the switches is in fact a joystick and the blinken light is a DAC controling a plotter. :) It details a cool interface for sending serial data over electrical wiring. Sort of a bare bones X10. And of course much much more. -Philip From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 21 00:16:18 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: OT: Modernish PC and USB questions with a Mac twist Message-ID: This is semi-ontopic since I'm building the system to emulate a PDP-10. Anyway I just got a pair of Intel D810EMO motherboards for free. I plan to add a DIMM, CPU, small HD, and a PS. Probably won't even bother with a case as I'd like to save space. Anyway, it's been a long time since I had much to do with PC's I've got the following questions. Is a Pentium III 800EB and a 800B processor the same thing? Can a Mac USB keyboard (from my G4/450) be used on a PC? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From fernande at internet1.net Fri Sep 21 00:20:43 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: OT: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? Message-ID: <3BAACE2B.188BEA4B@internet1.net> I want to run a TI calculator emulator on my Windows computer. I need a rom image for the specific calculator I want to emulate to do that. You're supposed to download the rom from your own calculator. My main reason for wanting to run the emulator, However, is to try out one of TI's newer calculators BEFORE I buy one. I have an 85, but I'd like to try out a 86, or a 92/92Plus. Do any of you already run emulators and have a rom image you could send? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 21 00:49:30 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: OT: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? In-Reply-To: <3BAACE2B.188BEA4B@internet1.net> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010920224623.02514270@209.185.79.193> I can recommend the 92+ I've got one and I really like it. Asm support is a bit weak yet but it is probably the nicest Calc I've ever had the pleasure of owning. As for ROM images the warez crowd tends to exchange them, TI seriously discourages people sending them around. If you just want to use one consider the local TI dealer that deals with schools, at least the one here has a 'loaner' program to let a teacher (or interested individual) borrow one for a week to try it out. --Chuck At 01:20 AM 9/21/01 -0400, you wrote: >I want to run a TI calculator emulator on my Windows computer. I need a >rom image for the specific calculator I want to emulate to do that. >You're supposed to download the rom from your own calculator. My main >reason for wanting to run the emulator, However, is to try out one of >TI's newer calculators BEFORE I buy one. I have an 85, but I'd like to >try out a 86, or a 92/92Plus. > >Do any of you already run emulators and have a rom image you could send? > >Chad Fernandez >Michigan, USA From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Sep 21 00:52:19 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: FA: RARE: Heathkit ETA-3400 Memory I/O Accy In-Reply-To: <3BAA5AF1.2BE60245@east.sun.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010920225033.02406330@mail.zipcon.net> You know.... every time I see For Auction and rare in the same sentence, I want to flog the author with a coho salmon.... From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 21 00:52:43 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: FA: RARE: Heathkit ETA-3400 Memory I/O Accy In-Reply-To: Re: FA: RARE: Heathkit ETA-3400 Memory I/O Accy (Geoff Reed) References: <3BAA5AF1.2BE60245@east.sun.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010920225033.02406330@mail.zipcon.net> Message-ID: <15274.54699.67959.958115@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 20, Geoff Reed wrote: > You know.... every time I see For Auction and rare in the same sentence, I > want to flog the author with a coho salmon.... Kinky. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From jimmydevice at hotmail.com Fri Sep 21 01:32:24 2001 From: jimmydevice at hotmail.com (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: OT: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? References: <3BAACE2B.188BEA4B@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BAADEF8.84D36E07@hotmail.com> Go to http://education.ti.com/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html You can get a complete C compiler, assembler, debugger and TI-89/92 calculator emulator from TI. Jim Davis Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I want to run a TI calculator emulator on my Windows computer. I need a > rom image for the specific calculator I want to emulate to do that. From jimmydevice at hotmail.com Fri Sep 21 01:40:59 2001 From: jimmydevice at hotmail.com (JimD) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: OT: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? References: <3BAACE2B.188BEA4B@internet1.net> Message-ID: <3BAAE0FB.9AF1B06F@hotmail.com> You will want to look at this too http://education.ti.com/developer/8992/download/download.html also www.ticalc.org Jim Davis. Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I want to run a TI calculator emulator on my Windows computer. I need a > rom image for the specific calculator I want to emulate to do that. > You're supposed to download the rom from your own calculator. My main > reason for wanting to run the emulator, However, is to try out one of > TI's newer calculators BEFORE I buy one. I have an 85, but I'd like to > try out a 86, or a 92/92Plus. > > Do any of you already run emulators and have a rom image you could send? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA From red at bears.org Fri Sep 21 01:59:46 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: changing Aviion monitor refresh setting Message-ID: 1) Power on the machine. 2) Wait approximately ten minutes. 3) Press 'reset'. 4) Wait a further thirty seconds. 5) Type -V on the console keyboard. The machine should beep. 6) Type '1' to set the video system to 70 Hz sync or '2' for 60 Hz. additionally, the default mode for the serial console (which the system will automatically use if there is no keyboard plugged in at power-on) is: 9600-E-7-1 Good luck. Hopefully this will help somebody get his Aviion going. ok r. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 21 03:06:12 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010920164225.L14220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <200109210806.KAA08662@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 20 Sep, Bill Bradford wrote: > *on* the desktop. You can put a VAX4000 in a BA440 on a desktop. If the desk can take the weight, it would be possible to put a 11/750 on it. ;-) Look at EPay. I am sure there will show up a nice VS4k60 (12VUPs) or even VS4k90 (24 VUPs, IMHO). > I've grown out of my "computers bigger than I am" phase I hope that I will never grow up. ;-) > - someone picked up the VAX 6000 about a month ago, and the city > hauled off the empty 4/690MP backplane/blower assembly yesterday during > "bulky trash week". Shame on you. ;-) I know of some people that reused empty cabinet sized computer enclosures. The VAX-Bar is the most famos. There is somebody in the Netherlands, that puted a refrigerator in the enclosure of a dead SGI Challenge. The same was made by some people at a german Sun office for internal use... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From alan.pearson at cramer.com Fri Sep 21 03:18:33 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > I've not come across it, but if it stops with registers and > the ALU, I don't think I'd call it a 'good book'. > > A CPU can be divided into 2 parts. The Data Path (registers, ALU, the > multiplexers between them, etc) and the Control (instruction decoder, > microcode + sequencer, condition logic, etc) True, I don't recall covering much in the way of control logic - only very basic stuff like telling the ALU whether to add or subtract, plus implementing a few flags like zero and carry. Once we got to that stage they threw us at the 29xx series to look at microcoding, which was all the rage at the time. Unfortunately I've lost most of my college notes now, I guess I've moved too many times :-/ I've been looking for a replacement for the Thewlis book - can you recommend any which cover CPU logic from the basics of how to build registers out of gates up to instruction fetching & decoding? I'm also very keen to get hold of a book covering the bitslice processors (29xx), any ideas? I can't imagine there's anything left in print now, but with an author/title or ISBN I might be able to track down a second-hand copy. -al From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1488.monmouth.com Fri Sep 21 06:23:29 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1488.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Sep 21, 2001 03:07:23 am" Message-ID: <200109211123.f8LBNT300638@bg-tc-ppp1488.monmouth.com> > > Actually much of the 11/780 microcode is in rom. > > The stuff loaded from RX01 is mostly bug fixes to the rom code. > > The patches went into the Writeable Control Store board. > > > > The 11/785 went to completely RAM loaded microcode. > > The 11/780 did have an optional second User Writeable Control Store > > board. > > What about the 11/730? I remember seeing a fair amount of fast-ish RAM on > the CPU boards (which I took to be a writeable control store) but not > that much PROM. > > -tony I believe the 11/730 and 11/725 was all WCS and that was why the 11/730 had dual TU58s... one drive for console and one for WCS. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From salo at Xtrmntr.org Fri Sep 21 06:35:00 2001 From: salo at Xtrmntr.org (salo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: changing Aviion monitor refresh setting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010921133500.D23202@Xtrmntr.org> hi, On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 02:59:46AM -0400, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > 1) Power on the machine. > 2) Wait approximately ten minutes. > 3) Press 'reset'. > 4) Wait a further thirty seconds. > 5) Type -V on the console keyboard. The machine should beep. > 6) Type '1' to set the video system to 70 Hz sync or '2' for 60 Hz. > > additionally, the default mode for the serial console (which the system > will automatically use if there is no keyboard plugged in at power-on) is: > > 9600-E-7-1 > > Good luck. Hopefully this will help somebody get his Aviion going. thank a lot. this solved my problem, card was set to 70 Hz instead of 60 Hz suitable for Sony GDM 1601/8. now it is working fine, i did it through serial console. but.. (yes, another but ;)) i got this machine without any keyboard. connector looks like PC DIN one but has more pins, i have no DIN keyboard here now to test it so i want to ask if it will work and if not, what for a keyboard i need to have (or is there any hack possible?), thanks regards, -- -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ / -- -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / \ -- From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Sep 21 07:29:20 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> The book: "Computer Organization & Design, The Hardware/Software Interface", by David A. Patterson and John L. Hennessy is a pretty thorough modern book. I don't know where to find a bit-slice design book these days. --tom At 09:18 AM 9/21/01 +0100, you wrote: >Tony Duell wrote: > >> I've not come across it, but if it stops with registers and >> the ALU, I don't think I'd call it a 'good book'. >> >> A CPU can be divided into 2 parts. The Data Path (registers, ALU, the >> multiplexers between them, etc) and the Control (instruction decoder, >> microcode + sequencer, condition logic, etc) > >True, I don't recall covering much in the way of control logic - only >very basic stuff like telling the ALU whether to add or subtract, plus >implementing a few flags like zero and carry. Once we got to that stage >they threw us at the 29xx series to look at microcoding, which was all >the rage at the time. > >Unfortunately I've lost most of my college notes now, I guess I've moved >too many times :-/ I've been looking for a replacement for the Thewlis >book - can you recommend any which cover CPU logic from the basics of >how to build registers out of gates up to instruction fetching & decoding? >I'm also very keen to get hold of a book covering the bitslice processors >(29xx), any ideas? I can't imagine there's anything left in print now, but >with an author/title or ISBN I might be able to track down a second-hand >copy. > >-al > > From millerbj at umich.edu Fri Sep 21 08:05:55 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? References: <3BAACE2B.188BEA4B@internet1.net> Message-ID: <002e01c1429e$26274ba0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> I have an 86 if you want me to create a ROM image of it... but you'll have to instruct me on how to do it... I have the serial link cable. Blair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chad Fernandez" To: ; Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 1:20 AM Subject: OT: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? > I want to run a TI calculator emulator on my Windows computer. I need a > rom image for the specific calculator I want to emulate to do that. > You're supposed to download the rom from your own calculator. My main > reason for wanting to run the emulator, However, is to try out one of > TI's newer calculators BEFORE I buy one. I have an 85, but I'd like to > try out a 86, or a 92/92Plus. > > Do any of you already run emulators and have a rom image you could send? > > Chad Fernandez > Michigan, USA > From msell at ontimesupport.com Fri Sep 21 08:18:01 2001 From: msell at ontimesupport.com (Matthew Sell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109202243.f8KMhff29668@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010921081716.00b293c0@127.0.0.1> Oops..... my bad. I'm in the habit of looking at that page for reference. Sorry for the bad link. - Matt At 05:43 PM 9/20/01 -0500, you wrote: > > Here is a link to a Compaq web site that lists VUP ratings: > >Those aren't VUP ratings. It isn't even accurate, since the >heading is "VAX system performance comparison--performance listing" >and there are Alpha systems mixed in. >-- >Eric Dittman >dittman@dittman.net >Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ Matthew Sell Programmer On Time Support, Inc. www.ontimesupport.com (281) 296-6066 Join the Metrology Software discussion group METLIST! http://www.ontimesupport.com/cgi-bin/mojo/mojo.cgi "One World, One Web, One Program" - Microsoft Promotional Ad "Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Fuhrer" - Adolf Hitler Many thanks for this tagline to a fellow RGVAC'er... From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 21 08:44:12 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel References: <3BAA1F19.768E543@home.com> Message-ID: <001d01c142a3$7faaffa0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Coward" To: Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2001 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Cromemco 16FDC and IMSAI front panel > > "Bill Sudbrink" said: > > I brought this up some time ago, but never > > got a satisfactory answer... > > > > When I use the above combination (regardless > > of CPU board), while the system in general > > works fine, the deposit/examine functionality > > of the front panel stops working. Somebody > > said they knew of a fix, but then never posted > > anything else. I've looked at the schematics > > (I have them for both items) and can't for the > > life of me see anything that would conflict. > > > Any help greatly appreciated. > > Here is some of the IMSAI front panel gottas: > > MWRITE pin 68 - This signal needs to be generated > by one source and one source only. It is generated > by the IMSAI front panel (by a deposit) so make > sure this signal is disabled on the CPU board when > used with the IMSAI front panel. > isn't this an obsolete signal, derived on later boards by /(/sWO + sOUT)? I don't have the doc's in front of me but it seems that this signal was dropped from use in the standard. It seems to me that you have two choices: (1) make everything adhere to the '696 standard, or (2) figure out exactly how it's all supposed to work, and then resolve the incompatibilities. Most people prefer (2) but (1)'s easier, because there's a published standard. > > PROT & UNPROT pins 20 & 70 - The IEEE 696 standard > says that these pins will be at ground. Some > motherboards ground these lines. But grounding > these pins on the IMSAI front panel will disable > the front panel. To fix this, cut the traces, > on the front panel, right at edge connector > pin 20 and 70. > I'm not so sure this signal is relevant at all. The IEEE 696 standard is completely adhered to on absolutely no hardware I've ever seen. Check the schematic to see whether this signal is even relevant to the memory boards in your system. Odds are, unless the things were built after 1985, they don't adhere to the standard at all. > > Data Out Bus - When the IMSAI front panel does > a deposit operation, it expects the the data > on the Data In Bus to be reflected on the > Data Out Bus. Some later CPU boards disabled > the Data Out Bus to cut down on bus noise > especially above 2MHz. > The data Out bus is where you'd expect any data WRITTEN (during sOUT or sMEMW cycles) by whoever is the bus master to appear. The data IN bus, following similar logic, is where you'd expect data from outside the bus master to be presented when it's doing an input (sINP or sMEMR) cycle. > The old 8080 boards mirrored the lower 8 addresses onto the upper 8 on the bus, but that's not what this is about. There is no need for data IN to appear on data OUT. IIRC, Data OUT should be the inputs to the I/O and Memory boards, and the outputs from a potential bus master. Boards which function as a bus master or slave, e.g. disk controllers, etc, with DMA capability, have to steer the data appropriately to reflect their roles. They're slaves when being programmed by another master, but are the master when they transfer data. Likewise, the FP has to be able to put the data toggled into the switch register onto the DOUT[7..0] lines when doing a deposit, and should reflect the content of DIN[7..0] when doing an examine. They're separate busses and, for the benefit of poorly designed and underbuffered memory and I/O boards that have devices with common I/O on board, should not be driven at the same time. Of course, it's possible to make some circuits work when both data busses are driven, but I'd review the schematic before allowing both to be driven. Keep in mind, BTW, that at the time the IMSAI FP was designed, memories with common I/O were pretty uncommon. If both busses were driven, it was conceivably permissible to drive both the DIN and DOUT busses on boards that (a) didn't enable the receivers on the DIN bus during write cycles, (b) didn't assert the nWE to the memory devices until the DIN bus was stabile, and (c) didn't enable the output buffers from the memories during a write cycle. Violating any of these conditions would probably cause problems, depending on the frontpanel timing and the memory board's bus interface logic. BTW, according to the '696 standard, there should be a set of status signals (names in the standard start with lower case 's') which stabilize before a falling edge of pSTVAL (phase1), during a true pSYNC. To avoid most risks, the DBIN receivers should be enabled during the entire phase whenever pDBIN is true, while /pWR should be used to enable the DBOUT drivers. Not being familiar with the IMSAI front panel, I can't say what effects this sort of signalling protocol will have on it. Those early devices, IMSAI, Altair, among others, didn't all work right with the signalling as specified in IEEE 696 are followed. Some older boards completely ignore the pWR* signal (AKA /pWR) and rely on sMEMW or sOUT to control the bus and also the device write enable. This can cause problems with other devices, particularly devices of later vintage, because they allow for data to propagate to target devices with write enabled before the data is valid. At a minimum, the nWE signal to SRAMs should not be activated before data is valid. While many memory devices tolerate this condition, some don't. Dick ================================================= > Regards, > --Doug > ========================================= > Doug Coward > @ home in Poulsbo, WA > > Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center > http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog > ========================================= > > From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Fri Sep 21 10:21:34 2001 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? Message-ID: <3BAB5AFE.DB08F704@kis.p.lodz.pl> "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > I have an 86 if you want me to create a ROM image of it... but you'll have > to instruct me on how to do it... I have the serial link cable. > > Blair > Hi I am author of TI-81, TI-85 and TI-86 drivers for MESS (http://mess.emuverse.com) multiemulator. What version of rom do you have in your TI-86 ? I was able to found only version: 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.6. If it is diffrent I am also interested in image of this rom. Krzysztof Strzecha From emu at ecubics.com Fri Sep 21 10:30:10 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3BAB5D02.8567158A@ecubics.com> Tom Uban wrote: > > The book: "Computer Organization & Design, The Hardware/Software Interface", > by David A. Patterson and John L. Hennessy is a pretty thorough modern book. > > I don't know where to find a bit-slice design book these days. Two books, which are still smiling at me from the bookshelf here Try to find this one: - "Bit Slice Design:Controllers and ALU's" by Donnamaie E. White ISBN 0-8240-7103-4 Most of this book was online at some time, I didn't find it today :-( (but i didn't look too hard) She (?) should have a webpage somewhere. the other one is: - "Bit Slice Microprocessor Design" by Mick and Brick ISBN 0-07-041781-4 It is probably online somewhere. cheers & have fun, emanuel From millerbj at umich.edu Fri Sep 21 11:58:22 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? References: <3BAB5AFE.DB08F704@kis.p.lodz.pl> Message-ID: <000501c142be$9f5f31c0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> It's been so long since I've dealt with these things... how do I get the ROM version again? Blair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Krzysztof Strzecha" To: Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:21 AM Subject: Re: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? > "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > > > I have an 86 if you want me to create a ROM image of it... but you'll > have > > to instruct me on how to do it... I have the serial link cable. > > > > Blair > > > > Hi > I am author of TI-81, TI-85 and TI-86 drivers for MESS > (http://mess.emuverse.com) multiemulator. What version of rom do you > have in > your TI-86 ? I was able to found only version: 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.6. If > it is > diffrent I am also interested in image of this rom. > > Krzysztof Strzecha > > > > From mrbill at mrbill.net Fri Sep 21 12:11:38 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109210806.KAA08662@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20010920164225.L14220@mrbill.net> <200109210806.KAA08662@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20010921121138.Z14220@mrbill.net> On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:12AM +0200, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > I've grown out of my "computers bigger than I am" phase > I hope that I will never grow up. ;-) Well, part of it was realizing that a lot of the machines I collected because they were free/cheap/gonna-be-tossed were doing nothing but taking up (needed) space in the garage. I will NOT toss anything that I can give away, however - I gave away a bunch of 4/330s, 4/630s, etc, and tried to give away the 4/690 backplane/blower/power supplies for two years before I gave up and gave it to the trash man. > I know of some people that reused empty cabinet sized computer > enclosures. The VAX-Bar is the most famos. There is somebody in the > Netherlands, that puted a refrigerator in the enclosure of a dead SGI > Challenge. The same was made by some people at a german Sun office for > internal use... If I had the time, etc.. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From salo at Xtrmntr.org Fri Sep 21 12:27:59 2001 From: salo at Xtrmntr.org (salo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: changing Aviion monitor refresh setting In-Reply-To: <20010921133500.D23202@Xtrmntr.org> References: <20010921133500.D23202@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: <20010921192759.A23924@Xtrmntr.org> On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 01:35:00PM +0200, salo wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 02:59:46AM -0400, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > > 1) Power on the machine. > > 2) Wait approximately ten minutes. > > 3) Press 'reset'. > > 4) Wait a further thirty seconds. > > 5) Type -V on the console keyboard. The machine should beep. > > 6) Type '1' to set the video system to 70 Hz sync or '2' for 60 Hz. > > thank a lot. this solved my problem, card was set to 70 Hz instead of 60 Hz > suitable for Sony GDM 1601/8. now it is working fine, i did it through serial > console. i found this operation described in original DG manuals on their website too, there are few obsoleted documents for software and hardware produced by DG: http://www-csc.dg.com/csc/ > but.. (yes, another but ;)) i got this machine without any keyboard. connector > looks like PC DIN one but has more pins, i have no DIN keyboard here now to > test it so i want to ask if it will work and if not, what for a keyboard i > need to have (or is there any hack possible?), thanks i realized that standard PC AT 101 should be enough from those docs. i fell into another problem.. it looks like my AViiON machine's battery ran out of power and any change in SCM is discarded after boot. each time i boot up i need to set graphics card's output frequency to 60Hz and system date is different. i searched for location of battery in manuals and i tried to find it on board -- without any success. do someone know where is system battery located? is it manufactured like sun's nvram chips in prom itself? thank you for any hint.. regards, -- -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ / -- -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / \ -- From red at bears.org Fri Sep 21 12:37:54 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: changing Aviion monitor refresh setting In-Reply-To: <20010921133500.D23202@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, salo wrote: > thank a lot. this solved my problem, card was set to 70 Hz instead of 60 Hz > suitable for Sony GDM 1601/8. now it is working fine, i did it through serial > console. Great! I'll have to remember that you can set the video refresh from a serial terminal, too. > but.. (yes, another but ;)) i got this machine without any keyboard. connector > looks like PC DIN one but has more pins, i have no DIN keyboard here now to > test it so i want to ask if it will work and if not, what for a keyboard i > need to have (or is there any hack possible?), thanks It is, in fact, a standard 101-key AT keyboard. I've heard rumours that cheap no-name keyboards might not work, but I haaven't done any testing myself. I use the same Fujitsu 4700-series AT keyboards with my Aviions that I used to use with my i386 PC. ok r. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 21 12:49:44 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Intriguing proposal Message-ID: Is it possible to put a Laserbus PCI Hose from an AlphaServer 8400 in my VAX 7000? The concept boggles the mind. Also, does anyone know where I can find TXXX XMI/BI, EXXX Laserbus, and other reference numbers for boards? Peace... Sridhar From engdahl at cle.ab.com Fri Sep 21 13:21:29 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Qbus HDLC controller -- a "what is it" board Message-ID: <000101c142ca$3bcf1a60$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Here's something else from my junk box that somebody might know what to do with: Four half-width Qbus boards, built by Applied Computer Consultants, Santa Barbara, CA. It looks like a DEC compatible DMA board and a three-board Z80-based standalone HDLC controller that sucks power off the Qbus. 1: this one attaches to the Qbus, and is called MDMA. Contains four AM2901 bit slices, a row of microcode ROMs, some logic, and a ribbon cable connector on the front edge. I'd venture a guess that this might be a clone of some DMA board Digital made. 2: this, and the remaining boards, get only power from the backplane. This board has two Zilog DMA's and a bunch of 74LS buffers, latches, and logic, all in sockets. Name: XQCP-I, serial number 235. It has a ribbon cable to the next board. My guess is this is a DMA board that lets the standalone uC talk to the PDP-11's DMA board. 3: a memory board. Contains 8 ROM sockets, 4 of them populated. ROM labels are marked IF-11Q/HDLC. Also 16 TMS4116-20L DRAMs. Name: XQCP-M, serial number 230. There is yet another ribbon cable connecting it to the next board. 4: CPU board. Zilog Z80-A, two more DMAs, an SIO/2, a CTC, and a little logic, all in sockets. Name: XQCP-P, serial number 240. There are two narrow ribbon cables on the front edge. There is no documentation, and I'll never have time to fool with it. If you want it, send me an email, and we'll draw straws in a couple days to see who gets it. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 21 13:42:56 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Terminal Info Message-ID: I've been looking at info on the Internet, and I have gotten confused. A lot of places say that the DEC VT525 can do color graphics, whereas some places say it can only do text. Is there a DEC color graphics (ReGIS and Sixels) terminal that can accept a PS/2 keyboard? Peace... Sridhar From bbrown at harper.cc.il.us Fri Sep 21 13:45:17 2001 From: bbrown at harper.cc.il.us (Bob Brown) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010921121138.Z14220@mrbill.net> References: <20010920164225.L14220@mrbill.net> <200109210806.KAA08662@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20010921121138.Z14220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: I use an old, gutted ibm 3274 terminal control unit to house my vcr's and be a stand for my tv. (it was actually my wife's idea...gee, one of those old boxes would make a great tv stand)! -Bob >On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:12AM +0200, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > I've grown out of my "computers bigger than I am" phase > > I hope that I will never grow up. ;-) > >Well, part of it was realizing that a lot of the machines I collected >because they were free/cheap/gonna-be-tossed were doing nothing but >taking up (needed) space in the garage. I will NOT toss anything that >I can give away, however - I gave away a bunch of 4/330s, 4/630s, etc, >and tried to give away the 4/690 backplane/blower/power supplies for >two years before I gave up and gave it to the trash man. > > > I know of some people that reused empty cabinet sized computer > > enclosures. The VAX-Bar is the most famos. There is somebody in the > > Netherlands, that puted a refrigerator in the enclosure of a dead SGI > > Challenge. The same was made by some people at a german Sun office for > > internal use... > >If I had the time, etc.. > >Bill > >-- >Bill Bradford >mrbill@mrbill.net >Austin, TX bbrown@harper.cc.il.us #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Systems Administrator Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace From vcf at vintage.org Fri Sep 21 13:47:10 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV needs good home Message-ID: I am in contact with a fellow near Buena Vista, Colorado, who has a TRS-80 Model IV with some system disks and manuals. He wants it to go to a good home. You pay shipping and packaging costs. He has no e-mail address and would not like to publish his phone number, so please e-mail me and I'll pass the info along to you. In the inevitable event of multiple responses, preference will go to those local to him (local being inside Colorado). Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From red at bears.org Fri Sep 21 13:55:11 2001 From: red at bears.org (r. 'bear' stricklin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: changing Aviion monitor refresh setting In-Reply-To: <20010921192759.A23924@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, salo wrote: > i fell into another problem.. it looks like my AViiON machine's battery ran > out of power and any change in SCM is discarded after boot. each time i boot > up i need to set graphics card's output frequency to 60Hz and system date is > different. i searched for location of battery in manuals and i tried to find > it on board -- without any success. do someone know where is system battery > located? is it manufactured like sun's nvram chips in prom itself? thank you > for any hint.. Yes, it has a Mostek 48T02. I would make a dump of the NVRAM ASAP. I didn't get the chance to do this to mine, because mine failed to start at all, displaying simply "NVBATLOW" on the serial console, and nothing else afterward. I will post a procedure for saving NVRAM contents to this list this evening. With luck there will be a few things still left in there, which could mean the difference between heartache and happiness when you replace the NVRAM. I can also give enough information on replacing the NVRAM to get things mostly running again, though as I mentioned I am still finding problems with missing or uninitialized data in my NVRAM. ok r. From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 21 13:57:28 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010921121138.Z14220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Bill Bradford wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:12AM +0200, jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > I've grown out of my "computers bigger than I am" phase > > I hope that I will never grow up. ;-) > > Well, part of it was realizing that a lot of the machines I collected > because they were free/cheap/gonna-be-tossed were doing nothing but > taking up (needed) space in the garage. I will NOT toss anything that > I can give away, however - I gave away a bunch of 4/330s, 4/630s, etc, > and tried to give away the 4/690 backplane/blower/power supplies for > two years before I gave up and gave it to the trash man. If there was a chassis, and you were closer to me, I would have taken that system. It sucks that you are almost 2,000 miles from me. > > I know of some people that reused empty cabinet sized computer > > enclosures. The VAX-Bar is the most famos. There is somebody in the > > Netherlands, that puted a refrigerator in the enclosure of a dead SGI > > Challenge. The same was made by some people at a german Sun office for > > internal use... > > If I had the time, etc.. *sigh* Same here. Peace... Sridhar From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 21 14:49:08 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Intriguing proposalt In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 21, 2001 01:49:44 PM Message-ID: <200109211949.f8LJn8I32143@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Is it possible to put a Laserbus PCI Hose from an AlphaServer 8400 in my > VAX 7000? The concept boggles the mind. Also, does anyone know where I > can find TXXX XMI/BI, EXXX Laserbus, and other reference numbers for > boards? I know the PCI interface isn't supported, so even if the VAX 7000 operated with the board installed there would be no drivers, so you'd have to write your own, which wouldn't be easy given the lack of documentation. Also, on your VAX 7000 you'll want to make sure you have the latest firmware installed. However, installing the latest firmware on the CPU boards can be a little dangerous if you aren't careful. For example, there's no failsafe, so if you mess up the CPU board would have to be replaced. Also, do you have any CIXCD boards in the system? If so, make sure they have the latest firmware. Otherwise, you are risking odd system crashes. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From wilby98 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 21 14:55:14 2001 From: wilby98 at yahoo.com (William S.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010921121138.Z14220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010921195514.9462.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Speaking of VAX's... can anyone give me a ballpark figure on the value of a VAX 7800 CPU board? There was some intense interest from a few people in acquiring them and was wondering if it might be nice to help out with the search. Bill Amsterdam --- Bill Bradford wrote: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:12AM +0200, > jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > I know of some people that reused empty cabinet > sized computer > > enclosures. The VAX-Bar is the most famos. There > is somebody in the > > Netherlands, that puted a refrigerator in the > enclosure of a dead SGI > > Challenge. The same was made by some people at a > german Sun office for > > internal use... > > If I had the time, etc.. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Fri Sep 21 14:58:51 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Intriguing proposal Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066140@exc-reo1> > Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > >Is it possible to put a Laserbus PCI Hose from an AlphaServer 8400 in my >VAX 7000? The concept boggles the mind. Also, does anyone know where I I don't know what the differences are between the TurboLaser bus (as in the AS 8400) and the Laserbus (on the VAX 7000/DEC 7000). If it works you will have the pleasure of writing some VAX drivers for PCI. Don;t forget that some LSB modules had Alpha-only firmware: I presume they had carnal knowledge of Alpha MMG data structures which are different on VAX. So just because it does not smoke when you drop it in the slot does not mean it is useful! >can find TXXX XMI/BI, EXXX Laserbus, and other reference numbers for >boards? For VAXBI, VAXft and XMI you can start here: http://www.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au/vax/ There are various "field guides" dotted around the net that cover Omnibus, Qbus and UNIBUS. I've got a list somewhere of LSB and FBUS stuff. Is there anything specific you wanted? Antonio From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Fri Sep 21 15:03:00 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Terminal Info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010921125943.00a19710@mcmanis.com> Sridhar wrote: >I've been looking at info on the Internet, and I have gotten confused. A >lot of places say that the DEC VT525 can do color graphics, whereas some >places say it can only do text. Is there a DEC color graphics (ReGIS and >Sixels) terminal that can accept a PS/2 keyboard? You can run a VT340 emulator on a PC in full screen mode and it will appear for all intents and purposes as a terminal that accepts a PS/2 keyboard. However, no the VT525 is _not_ a graphics terminal according the manufacturer (www.boundless.com) Boundless bought all of the VT rights from DEC when they exited the terminal business. So I think you are stuck using a VT340 (or VT340+) if you want a "terminal" with color ReGIS or Sixel graphics. --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 21 15:09:50 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Terminal Info In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 21, 2001 02:42:56 PM Message-ID: <200109212009.f8LK9o432254@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I've been looking at info on the Internet, and I have gotten confused. A > lot of places say that the DEC VT525 can do color graphics, whereas some > places say it can only do text. Is there a DEC color graphics (ReGIS and > Sixels) terminal that can accept a PS/2 keyboard? I know you can define different colors on the VT525, but I've never tried to do any kind of graphics on mine. I'll check this weekend and see what the capabilities are in terms of color graphics. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 21 15:27:12 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: This week'sodd bit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This weeks odd bit from scrounging is a box of Apple II graphics replacement roms. Just a chip on foam, with a minigrabber jumper, and instructions I haven't read yet. Note for the confused, this is for the Apple II, not newer models, so it could be graphics, lower case, who knows. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 21 16:03:48 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: Alan Pearson "CPU design at the gate level" (Sep 21, 9:18) References: Message-ID: <10109212203.ZM10934@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 21, 9:18, Alan Pearson wrote: > Unfortunately I've lost most of my college notes now, I guess I've moved > too many times :-/ I've been looking for a replacement for the Thewlis > book - can you recommend any which cover CPU logic from the basics of > how to build registers out of gates up to instruction fetching & decoding? > I'm also very keen to get hold of a book covering the bitslice processors > (29xx), any ideas? I can't imagine there's anything left in print now, but > with an author/title or ISBN I might be able to track down a second-hand > copy. Amongst my collection I have "Microprogrammed Systems Design" by J S Florentin. After some preliminaries, it explains the design of two (fictional) machines, a simple one (not unlike a PDP-8) and then a more complex one (not unlike a PDP-11) using Am2900 series and TI 74AS888/890 chips. It has a large section on the sequencers in the middle, then microprogramming, and ends up with RISC and other VLSI devices (including later AMD and TI bit slice families). It may still be in print; I'm sure I've seen copies recently. It's published by Macmillan, ISBN 0-333-54250-9 if you want to look for it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 21 16:32:22 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <20010921195514.9462.qmail@web13302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I would guess somewhere between $1000US and $1300US. Peace... Sridhar On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, William S. wrote: > Speaking of VAX's... can anyone give me a ballpark > figure on the value of a VAX 7800 CPU board? There was > some intense interest from a few people in acquiring > them and was wondering if it might be nice to help out > with the search. > > Bill > Amsterdam > > --- Bill Bradford wrote: > > On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 10:06:12AM +0200, > > jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote: > > > > I know of some people that reused empty cabinet > > sized computer > > > enclosures. The VAX-Bar is the most famos. There > > is somebody in the > > > Netherlands, that puted a refrigerator in the > > enclosure of a dead SGI > > > Challenge. The same was made by some people at a > > german Sun office for > > > internal use... > > > > If I had the time, etc.. > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com > From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 21 16:35:58 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Intriguing proposal In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066140@exc-reo1> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > >Is it possible to put a Laserbus PCI Hose from an AlphaServer 8400 > in my > >VAX 7000? The concept boggles the mind. Also, does anyone know > where I > > I don't know what the differences are between the TurboLaser > bus (as in the AS 8400) and the Laserbus (on the > VAX 7000/DEC 7000). The reason why I was asking is that I've seen a lot of sellers selling boards that would work in both 7000 and 8400 boxen. > If it works you will have the pleasure of writing some > VAX drivers for PCI. Don;t forget that some LSB modules > had Alpha-only firmware: I presume they had carnal > knowledge of Alpha MMG data structures which > are different on VAX. So just because it does not > smoke when you drop it in the slot does not > mean it is useful! That's what I was getting at. If I could get my VAX 7000 system running with PCI cards, then I could do some *serious* expansion to my VAXcluster. All has to do with the quantity of PCI cards currently being made. > >can find TXXX XMI/BI, EXXX Laserbus, and other reference numbers > for > >boards? > > For VAXBI, VAXft and XMI you can start here: > > http://www.stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au/vax/ Yes, I've seen that one. > There are various "field guides" dotted around the > net that cover Omnibus, Qbus and UNIBUS. I'll look for "field guides" and see what pops up. > I've got a list somewhere of LSB and FBUS > stuff. Is there anything specific you > wanted? Actually, I just wanted to put name and function to all the part numbers I am seeing floating around the 'net. Peace... Sridhar > Antonio > From vaxman at qwest.net Fri Sep 21 16:43:31 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is a book by Mick & Brick about the 29xx bit slice processors. It is basically a reprint of the application note booklets. I have both, but they are very near the bottom of the 'to-scan' pile. I just bought a pair of Sun Netra T105s, so I am about 8 years away from classic hardware right now... Sigh... OTOH, I am re-designing a small (30K gates) DSP core that is use to control the servo system for DVD drives. If you'd like to discuss how to implement instructions, drop me a line. No, I can't give out the VHDL for the DSP, Cirrus would fire me, sue me, or make me work late... Clint On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Alan Pearson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've not come across it, but if it stops with registers and > > the ALU, I don't think I'd call it a 'good book'. > > > > A CPU can be divided into 2 parts. The Data Path (registers, ALU, the > > multiplexers between them, etc) and the Control (instruction decoder, > > microcode + sequencer, condition logic, etc) > > True, I don't recall covering much in the way of control logic - only > very basic stuff like telling the ALU whether to add or subtract, plus > implementing a few flags like zero and carry. Once we got to that stage > they threw us at the 29xx series to look at microcoding, which was all > the rage at the time. > > Unfortunately I've lost most of my college notes now, I guess I've moved > too many times :-/ I've been looking for a replacement for the Thewlis > book - can you recommend any which cover CPU logic from the basics of > how to build registers out of gates up to instruction fetching & decoding? > I'm also very keen to get hold of a book covering the bitslice processors > (29xx), any ideas? I can't imagine there's anything left in print now, but > with an author/title or ISBN I might be able to track down a second-hand > copy. > > -al > > From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 21 17:20:43 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Organization tips? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <476.664T2150T14006159optimus@canit.se> Chuck McManis skrev: >So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many >hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers >alive? Wires in one box, cards in another, drawers for drives, memory, processors. Lots of sticky labels. Marking things up properly, even cover plates or mounting brackets, is essential. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Wer nichts zu sagen hat, sagt es auf Englisch." (-Walter Kr?mer, bez?gl. Anglizismen.) From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Fri Sep 21 17:08:00 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Terminal Info References: Message-ID: <3BABBA40.D9D51CBF@tinyworld.co.uk> Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > I've been looking at info on the Internet, and I have gotten > confused. A lot of places say that the DEC VT525 can do color > graphics, whereas some places say it can only do text. Is there a > DEC color graphics (ReGIS and Sixels) terminal that can accept a > PS/2 keyboard? The VT525 offers colour text only. The last colour graphics terminal from DEC was the VT340. However, the VT340 takes an LK201 keyboard, not PS/2. You'll find the definitive specification at Boundless Technologies' website, . From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 21 17:25:14 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: Organization tips? In-Reply-To: Organization tips? (Chuck McManis) References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: <15275.48714.927996.284344@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 19, Chuck McManis wrote: > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers alive? For storing stuff in boxes...I avoid cardboard nowadays...I've been replacing them with those plastic "tubs" that one can purchase at discount stores. They last longer, are waterproof, and more stackable. They've also considerably cut down on the dust level in the house. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From bshannon at tiac.net Fri Sep 21 18:49:51 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: Message-ID: <3BABD21F.F436633D@tiac.net> The book 'Bit slice microprocessor design' is a good starting point for 2901 designs. Alan Pearson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've not come across it, but if it stops with registers and > > the ALU, I don't think I'd call it a 'good book'. > > > > A CPU can be divided into 2 parts. The Data Path (registers, ALU, the > > multiplexers between them, etc) and the Control (instruction decoder, > > microcode + sequencer, condition logic, etc) > > True, I don't recall covering much in the way of control logic - only > very basic stuff like telling the ALU whether to add or subtract, plus > implementing a few flags like zero and carry. Once we got to that stage > they threw us at the 29xx series to look at microcoding, which was all > the rage at the time. > > Unfortunately I've lost most of my college notes now, I guess I've moved > too many times :-/ I've been looking for a replacement for the Thewlis > book - can you recommend any which cover CPU logic from the basics of > how to build registers out of gates up to instruction fetching & decoding? > I'm also very keen to get hold of a book covering the bitslice processors > (29xx), any ideas? I can't imagine there's anything left in print now, but > with an author/title or ISBN I might be able to track down a second-hand > copy. > > -al From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 21 19:07:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: MC68881 vs MC68882 (was Re: Mac Plus as a webserver...) In-Reply-To: <20010919164420.79171.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1558.665T900T674117optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >--- emanuel stiebler wrote: >> Iggy Drougge wrote: >> >> > >Yeah, the SE/30 is a 68030, 16MHz; with 68882 FPU... >> > >> > Me too, but shouldn't that be a 68881? >> >> 68882 is right for 68030 & 68020. 68881 only foir 68020. >> (talking about hardware, no software) >I _think_ the Amiga 3000/16 had a 16Mhz 68881 and the A3000/25 >had a 25Mhz 68882, but I could easily be mistaken. There are accelerator boards with 68030+68881 as well. As for the 68881, it may be run with the 68000 as well. It was used in the Atari Mega ST series in such a configuration. >My memory is that the parts were interchangable in hardware (presuming >the speed was OK) but the performance was better at a given speed >for the 68882 over the 68881. I never did any rendering on my Amigas, >so my use of the floating point was rather limited. I skipped over >the '020 when I was heavily into Amigas, leaping from a massively >expanded A1000 (Rejuvinator, Spirit InBoard, Microbotics Starboard w/Star- >Drive, ROM switcher, etc.) to an A3000/25. I didn't have any FPU when I was into rendering. Didn't have any MMU either. Or a hard drive. Fourteen MHz, two MB of chip RAM and a DD floppy drive is all you need. ^_^ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia." - Theo de Raadt From sspence at avimages.com Fri Sep 21 18:43:17 2001 From: sspence at avimages.com (Steven Spence) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:43 2005 Subject: LCD repair Message-ID: Don't know if you found the problem with your lcd yet but I am a tech on such and if you carefully fub the glued ribbon cables feeding into the lcd panel sometimes this corrects those lines otherwise you might get it repaired by one of the online lcd repair shops. Steven Spence From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 21 19:46:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: <200109191911.VAA03074@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <1203.665T800T1064645optimus@canit.se> jkunz skrev: >On 19 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: >> I missed the 4000 due to the shadow and the BA215 as I didn't scroll all >> the way down. More nice toys. >Very nice toys. I have a MV4k200 in a BA215. A very handy QBus VAX and >it is nice to work on the BA215. No finger breaking and flor crawling >like on the flor stand BA23. OTOH, the floor-sTanding (as Commodore would have us believe T meant =) BA23 is very pretty. >> As someone that cares for an 8820 at work, >A 8820 still in production use?! >I know from ragge, the NetBSD/VAX port-master, that there is a 8800 in >north Sweden runing. AFAIK it is the machine behind ftp.luth.se, as the >folowing picture implies: >http://www.ludd.luth.se/gallery/ludd1-mII/ftp.luth.se_mark_IV-4.jpg ISTR that being the case when ftp.luth.se was the Swedish Aminet mirror, and I as a consequence frequented that site, but they must have upgraded since (SUNET in Uppsala became a full Aminet mirror some years ago, superceding LuTH): ftp.luth.se consists of 1 SS1000 with 1GB memory and 4 CPUs. The total disk capacity of ftp.luth.se is right now about 150GB. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. A conservative is a worshipper of dead radicals. From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Sep 21 19:24:23 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Amiga archiving Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010921190833.02299e70@pc> I've had great luck in the past few weeks using a new tool called 'tsgui' that can be found on Aminet and the usual Amiga-related sites. It writes an Amiga volume as an HDF file, the format now supported under emulators such as WinUAE. My remaining Amigas (an A2000/040 and an A4000/030) always had Ethernet cards with TCP/IP and NFS. Using the freeware SOSS NFS server on my PC, I can see the PC's hard disk on the Amigas. 'tsgui' wrote each volume across the network. WinUAE wants sectors and surfaces as if from an Amiga 'mountlist' in order to understand the geometry of the HDF hard file. A tool called 'MakeMountlist' made that easy when the systems (such as the A4000) didn't use old-fashioned mountlists. Once loaded into WinUAE, it easily mounted my old volumes. One tweak to the startup-sequence to map my old volume WinUAE's default volume names, and suddenly I was booting into my exact A2000/040 environment in WinUAE. WinUAE can also mount points on the PC's file system as Amiga volumes, making future archived file retrieval quite easy. - John From allain at panix.com Fri Sep 21 19:30:40 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> <15275.48714.927996.284344@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <007101c142fd$cf413200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> On September 19, Chuck McManis wrote: > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers alive? If bits are it, I'd reccomend Skippy peanutbutter jars. They're clear and unbreakable, like solid plastic bags. You can combine small and medium sized in a single short depth drawer. On their side its easy to see and find things. They stack well too. Jif didn't seem to work as well for this. John A. From mranalog at home.com Fri Sep 21 19:47:47 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Practical Electronics and D. Bollen References: Message-ID: <3BABDFB3.299CD3C7@home.com> Matt London wrote: > Right. Well my first step would be to email someone at the magazine. EPE > now own/have merged with just about every other popular electronics mag in > the UK apart from maplin's "Electronics". They seem to be a friendly bunch > from the dealings I've had with them. > > Going from the front cover of the latest issue (dropped through my door > just a few days ago) their website is http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/ > You also might like to try techdept@epemag.wimborne.co.uk The bad news is that contacting them didn't answer any questions, so I've decided to let this little quest simmer for awhile. > Sorry but we have no data on PE prior to 1991. I know there was such a > series but we are unable to provide dates etc. > -- > Mike Kenward > Editor > Everyday Practical Electronics/ETI > Wimborne Publishing Ltd The good news is this episode got me to thinking about again about obtaining a copy of Doulas Hartree's 1935 article describing the construction of a Differential Analyzer using Meccano parts. This time I got up the courage to email the Manchester Literary and Philosophical Society directly. They were very helpful and they are copying and sending me the article at no charge. Regards, --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 21 20:22:46 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Intriguing proposal In-Reply-To: from "Absurdly Obtuse" at Sep 21, 2001 05:35:58 PM Message-ID: <200109220122.f8M1Mk600367@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > > > >Is it possible to put a Laserbus PCI Hose from an AlphaServer 8400 > > in my > > >VAX 7000? The concept boggles the mind. Also, does anyone know > > where I > > > > I don't know what the differences are between the TurboLaser > > bus (as in the AS 8400) and the Laserbus (on the > > VAX 7000/DEC 7000). > > The reason why I was asking is that I've seen a lot of sellers selling > boards that would work in both 7000 and 8400 boxen. There is a DEC 7000, which is even closer to the VAX 7000 than the 8400. > > If it works you will have the pleasure of writing some > > VAX drivers for PCI. Don;t forget that some LSB modules > > had Alpha-only firmware: I presume they had carnal > > knowledge of Alpha MMG data structures which > > are different on VAX. So just because it does not > > smoke when you drop it in the slot does not > > mean it is useful! > > That's what I was getting at. If I could get my VAX 7000 system running > with PCI cards, then I could do some *serious* expansion to my VAXcluster. > All has to do with the quantity of PCI cards currently being made. What kind of expansion cards do you want for the VAX 7000? BTW, if you see a DEC XMI SCSI board, be warned it is Alpha-only. There's no VMS support for the card in a VAX 7000. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Sep 21 20:53:37 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Intriguing proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Carlini, Antonio wrote: > > > > Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > > > > > >Is it possible to put a Laserbus PCI Hose from an AlphaServer 8400 > > in my > > >VAX 7000? The concept boggles the mind. Also, does anyone know > > where I > > The reason why I was asking is that I've seen a lot of sellers selling > boards that would work in both 7000 and 8400 boxen. > > If I could get my VAX 7000 system running > with PCI cards, then I could do some *serious* expansion to my VAXcluster. > All has to do with the quantity of PCI cards currently being made. There is zero support in OpenVMS VAX for PCI. There was some discussion of this in comp.os.vms a while back that might be worth reading. -- From thompson at mail.athenet.net Fri Sep 21 20:56:22 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? In-Reply-To: <15275.48714.927996.284344@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 19, Chuck McManis wrote: > > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many > > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers alive? > > For storing stuff in boxes...I avoid cardboard nowadays...I've been > replacing them with those plastic "tubs" that one can purchase at > discount stores. They last longer, are waterproof, and more > stackable. They've also considerably cut down on the dust level in > the house. I have an Army surplus ammo case for my spare hard drives (filled layers of bubble wrap.) The thing is airtight and actually hisses from the pressure change when opened after being kept closed for some time. I ran out of room in it and turned out some of my smaller capacity drives to normal storage. -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 20:35:08 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Sep 21, 1 07:29:20 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 884 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/0207818a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 20:30:10 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: from "Alan Pearson" at Sep 21, 1 09:18:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2482 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/ace26939/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 20:41:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? In-Reply-To: <15275.48714.927996.284344@phaduka.neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 21, 1 06:25:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 580 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/8b69c743/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 20:08:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAAB4CF.6C9FA52B@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 20, 1 11:32:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2979 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/411c9a76/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 20:12:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAAB61C.B75F4100@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 20, 1 11:38:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/4541e321/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 21 20:22:45 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAAB917.CFD68865@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 20, 1 11:50:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3673 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/ea63a13c/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 21 21:48:52 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: Message-ID: <001101c14311$1d875d00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> A big part of this problem is that there is such a wide range of what is collectively referred to as a processor. If you want to know how to design, at the gate level, a set of registers, you start with how to build a flipflop and go from there. If you want to consider the datapaths, you figure out what you want in the way of multiplexers and tristate busses. The remainder is in how to build a sufficiently fast ALU, and how to design an instruction set. Most people start with the architecture, and that will dictate much of what's needed in terms of registers and data steering logic. Concatenating the datapaths in order to provide the necessary functions is not terribly difficult if the instruction-set/architecture combination is regular and well-designed. It's difficult to discuss in advance of a specific set of requirements, however, because each case varies considerably. I wouldn't be too hard on authors for not trying to do what can't be done well. Specific examples are widely available in VHDL and Verilog examples on the WWW. I find the VHDLs easier and quicker to understand than schematics, even though I was raised on schematics. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:35 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > > > > The book: "Computer Organization & Design, The Hardware/Software Interface", > > by David A. Patterson and John L. Hennessy is a pretty thorough modern book. > > Yes, unfortunately it is a 'modern book'. I read some of Hennessy and > Patterson once, and found it was great at telling me how to analyse a > processor design, and optimise it, and things like that, but it didn't > really tell me how to do the design in the first place. > > It seems to have been written for the modern 'engineer' -- the sort that > couldn't design an engine (in the original meaning of 'ingenious > mechanism') if his life depended on it. And as you might have guessed by > now, I have little time for 'engineers' who can't design and build > examples of the things they claim to understand. > > You couldn't take that book and learn enough to start wiring up gates and > flip-flops to make a processor :-( > > -tony > > From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 21 21:53:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? References: Message-ID: <000001c14312$915629e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Since I have a great liking for green chili, I use the small (4-oz) cans that once contained the jalapenos I use to house miscellaneous IC's and other small parts. The cans stack nicely, and, with a minimum of help, seem to serve well. The somewhat larger cans that are used for tuna, which I eat less frequently, because it's better for me than the chili, seem to work quite well also. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Organization tips? > > For storing stuff in boxes...I avoid cardboard nowadays...I've been > > replacing them with those plastic "tubs" that one can purchase at > > discount stores. They last longer, are waterproof, and more > > stackable. They've also considerably cut down on the dust level in > > the house. > > But generate more static (unless you've managed to find a cheap source of > the conductive ones).... > > I use biscuit tins a lot. They are conductive (obviously) and should make > a nice Faraday cage to protect the PCBs and chips (the latter on > conductive foam, of course) stored inside. > > -tony > > From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 21 22:07:00 2001 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini, Jr.) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Altair32 update Message-ID: Hello, all: For those interested, I hit a major milestone this evening. After a momentary flash of brillance (which come too few and far between I'm afraid :-)) I made some minor tweaks to the code relating to diskette images. Then, I loaded up an image of CP/M 2.2 for the Altair and fired it up. Well, don't you know it works! I got CP/M to boot on the emulator!!! I now have to try Altair Disk BASIC and Altair DOS. It's dog slow and for some reason I can see CP/M console output but it doesn't appear to receive console input. So, I'm stuck at the "A>" prompt. I guess it's time to slow the front panel updating again or try to optimize the processor code. I feel a 2.1 release coming... Rich Rich Cini Collector of classic computers Build Master for the Altair32 Emulation Project Web site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/ /************************************************************/ From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 21 23:35:34 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? In-Reply-To: <476.664T2150T14006159optimus@canit.se> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> Message-ID: >>So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many >>hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers >>alive? > >Wires in one box, cards in another, drawers for drives, memory, processors. >Lots of sticky labels. Marking things up properly, even cover plates or >mounting brackets, is essential. Markers, postits, masking tape, and clear tape to stick down a postit for good. EVERYTHING that I keep that goes across my bench gets a label, postit or just masking tape with what it is, the date, and a summary of status and contents. Boxes get marker or masking tape to show contents, and all the clear storage gets a sheet of paper inside that I can read through the walls. Major thing I do wrong, failing to throw out the junk, and move the good stuff I don't want on to other people who do want it. This hobby craves space, and if you get too much stored there is no room to play. From jpdavis at gorge.net Sat Sep 22 00:48:37 2001 From: jpdavis at gorge.net (Jim Davis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAC2635.A8004166@gorge.net> My 2 cents on this whole thing, A classic microcoded processor consists of vertical and horizontal unit addressing. Vertical addressing is the decoding of a bit field in a microinstruction to select one of N elements. Horizontal addressing consists of one microinstruction bit per device selected or code selections to more complicated devices, like the alu operation selection. The classical microprogrammed machine directly controls register <-> bus enables and alu source.destination, such things as incrementing a program counter and operating memory control units. The idea is that a collection of registers, alus and counters can be controlled / sequenced to get the data from one unit to the next, controlling enables, chip selects and r/w lines. The microprogrammed machine is just a bunch of registers and alu units with no order until microcode controls the symphony. Anything that decodes to multiple instructions internally IMHO, is not microcode. It can invoke other units ( memory controllers... ) which may be microprogrammed, implemented at state machines or even hardwired but sequence independently. So, That really cleared things up, bah! Decoding - a decoder, takes N bits in, has N^2 output lines, one enabled for any N input see 74154 4-16 decoder for really old example Jim Davis. Gary Oliver, you've done microcoded machines? whats your take? Tony Duell wrote: > From technos at nerdland.org Sat Sep 22 01:10:06 2001 From: technos at nerdland.org (Jim Tuck) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? Message-ID: <01C1430B.B3AFF900.technos@nerdland.org> On Friday, September 21, 2001 9:56 PM, Paul Thompson [SMTP:thompson@mail.athenet.net] wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On September 19, Chuck McManis wrote: > > > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the > > > many > > > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older > > > computers alive? > > > > For storing stuff in boxes...I avoid cardboard nowadays...I've > > been > > replacing them with those plastic "tubs" that one can purchase at > > discount stores. They last longer, are waterproof, and more > > stackable. They've also considerably cut down on the dust level in > > the house. > > I have an Army surplus ammo case for my spare hard drives (filled > layers > of bubble wrap.) The thing is airtight and actually hisses from the > pressure change when opened after being kept closed for some time. > > I ran out of room in it and turned out some of my smaller capacity > drives > to normal storage. > > > -- Good idea. Myself, I use cases from IBM procs. Take the spacer foam out, fit 8 standard HD. For laptop drives leave the foam in, fit 20. Jim From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 22 07:09:44 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Free Apple II (and //e and //c) stuff, DC area Message-ID: <010922080944.20602529@trailing-edge.com> Free to whoever wants to pick it up. I'm in suburban MD, just inside the I-495 DC beltway: Free Apple //c Free Apple II+ Free Apple Disk II drives Free random Apple docs and magazines Please E-mail me at "shoppa@trailing-edge.com" if interested. First person to set a definite pick-up time for this weekend gets them. Tim. From CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 22 07:25:16 2001 From: CLASSICCMP at trailing-edge.com (CLASSICCMP@trailing-edge.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Free 8-inch floppies and drives, Wash DC area Message-ID: <010922082516.20602529@trailing-edge.com> Free, available immediately, in suburban MD just inside the I-495 beltway: Over a thousand used 8-inch floppies, mostly in plastic storage boxes, mostly with CP/M filesystems and SW. Also, some Shugart 8" floppy drives, very similar to the SA800 but requiring a little bit wider mounting space. Email me at "shoppa@trailing-edge.com" if interested. First to set up a pick-up time this weekend gets them all (no picking and choosing, you take them all!) Tim. From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Sat Sep 22 08:51:32 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: LCD repair Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722577C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> To whom were you replying? I'd posted about looking for an LCD screen for my Sharp laptop a while back... Unfortunately for me, mine has suffered fragmentation (it's physically cracked). Replacement is the only option... -dq > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Spence [mailto:sspence@avimages.com] > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:43 PM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: LCD repair > > > Don't know if you found the problem with your lcd yet but I > am a tech on > such and if you carefully fub the glued ribbon cables feeding into the > lcd panel sometimes this corrects those lines otherwise you > might get it > repaired by one of the online lcd repair shops. > > Steven Spence > From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Sep 22 09:13:25 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAC9C85.5C982ACB@tiac.net> Hi Tony, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm adding one more level of abstraction -- microcoding on the microcoded > > > machine, so to speak. Like the Mini PLC-2. > > > > An assembly-level program running on a Pentium, technically speaking, is not > > microcode. > > Why can't the Pentium be a a microcode engine, at least in principle (If > you are going to argue that at the microcode level, accessing main memory > takes more than 1 instruction, then simply have the Pentium CPU and the > microcode (or emulator if that's what you want to call it) ROM on its bus, > and link up someuser RAM memory via I/O ports. Why is the code in the > ROM in that case not microcode? I understand your confusion here, but in this case there already is something defined as microcode. Simply adding another layer of complexity does not change the underlaying microcode that runs directly on the hardware, its still the microcode of the engine. This underlaying microcode still implements the instruction set of the physical CPU hardware. In the (odd) case you describe above, your still running an assembly-level program on an already microcoded machine. Such a strange application does not redefine the existing microcode into 'nanocode'. The code in the ROM is still made of instructions which are interpreted by existing microcode. The difference is very very clear at the hardware level. > > > > But an writing such an emulator is not 'microprogramming'. > > > > > > It is so. I don't know of any rule that says that the micromachine has to > > > have a particular type of architecture, or that it can't be an off-the-shelf > > > machine, rather than a collection of AMD 29xx parts. > > > > By definition, a microprogram runs directly at the hardware level. A Pentium is > > Does it? Define 'hardware level'. There is little conceptual difference > between microcode and a finite state machine. Are you going to claim that > if the CPU hardware contains finite state machines (which just about all > do) then the program in the control store can't be called 'microcode' > Because if so, I don't know of a single microcoded processor. The 'hardware level' means that the micro-operations are executed by physical gates and devices. These gates and devices will (must actually) form state machines, like the AM2910 microprogram sequencer. So the presence of state machines (you can't run microcode without them!) is not an issue here. > > a microprogramed processor, so an assembly level program running on a > > microprogrammed machine cannot really be called a microprogram. > > Firstly, I've never met a processor that runs _assembly_ language. You > have to assemble it into machine code first :-). Hence the term 'assembly level program'. It this discussion about computers, or terminology? > Secondly, I still have this problem with the idea that if there's > already some microcode (or presumably a state machine) in the system then > the next level of code can't be called microcode. Some machines do have a programmable layer below the microcode, but its very rare. Some machines (Interdata?) have nanocode. This is used for very basic functions like controling main memory addressing modes, etc. Other machines (like the VAX series, and later Pentiums) have more than one microcoded engine in the CPU, one for data processing, and another for program flow control. Basically, if a machine is already microcoded, the term is already taken. Here's an example of why its completely wrong to use the term microcode for an assembly language program... I have a HP 2114A computer. Its not microcoded, it uses state and phase counters, and a huge array of gates to decode the state, phase, and instruction register contents into the control strobes that actually run the hardware. I can run small programs on the 2114, and then take that exact same binary-level code and enter it into a HP2113E, a true microcoded machine. Now this same binary, machine language program will run identically (well, much faster, but logically the same). But I still cannot call this binary program 'microcode' on the 2114 simply because the 2114 is not microprogrammed. Does this same binary code suddenly become 'microcode' when it runs on the 2114, but transform into an assembly language program when run on a 2113? Of course not. The only microcode here is sitting in chips on the 2113 CPU. (note, the early 2100 series machines describe 'microprogramming' as holding more than one op-code in an assembly-level instruction, but this is NOT the accepted usage of the term today) > Turning it round, would you say that the 'machine code' for an ARM chip > (which AFAIK contains no traditional microcode) is, in fact really > microcode? Because it runs directly on the hardware (This definition has > the absurd cosequence that a program running on a P850 would be > microcode, but the same program running on a P851 would be machine code). No, instructions may run directly on the hardware, using the conventional state and phase counter approach to designing a NON-MICROPROGRAMED processor, like the HP2114, or your ARM chip. > > > You can argue that hardware is software, or that software is hardware. It's > > > all logic. The distinction is pretty academic. > > > > Exactly these are terms with fairly well defined meanings! > > OK, is the VHDL description of a circuit hardware or software? If I > program it into an FPGA, is it hardware or software then? If I build it > from TTL chips, then presumably it's hardware. VHDL is clearly software. The FPGA itself is hardware. The configuration data generated by the VHDL is also software that is processed by the FPGA hardware. This is really back and white. Where is the silicon? Thats the hardware! > I once convinced a DEC droid that the RK05 bootstrap program in my > PDP11/45 was _hardware_ and therefore didn't need a license (he was > trying to claim i needed a license for a M792 board!). I pointed out I > had a schematic showing which diodes had to be inserted to make that 32 > word diode-matrix ROM contain the RK05 boot program. > > No, the terms 'hardware' and 'software' are not totally unabiguous in all > cases! > > -tony I totally disagree. Your M792 board is hardware, but the data stored on that board is software. But that software simply does not have a license agreement. A EPROM is hardware, but the data held in it is software, and may very well need a license. A license is not what makes something software Tony, its simply the fact that its built out of bits rather than silicon. The line between them is very clear. From optimus at canit.se Fri Sep 21 21:24:17 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Moving VMS Message-ID: <918.665T850T2044579optimus@canit.se> First of all, I'm lagging far behind with my mail reading, and I don't think I've managed to thank those who provided me with the necessary help for cracking my VAXstation. Now I'm fumbling around in VMS. What a queer system, I'm totally lost, but some manual reading will probably provide necessary orientation. Anyway, thank you, Jochen (?) et al. Now, I've got three functioning VMS 5.5 disks. And we've got a MicroVAX 3100 without system disks. Would it be possible to just connect one of my spare disks to the SCSI bus on the ?VAX or would the system crash and burn when it couldn't find any graphics hardware and perhaps not the exact same peripheral systems (these are disks from a VAXstation 3100, so they're close relatives)? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." -- m3000 From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Sep 22 09:17:50 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAC9D8E.A0174ACB@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > > Using your definition every machine that has writeable microcode is "emulating" > > > something > > > else... > > > > Not at all. If a machine has a writable control store, it simply has > > an extensible > > instruction set. Its only emulation if you use that microcode to > > What if it has a writeable control store and _no_ ROM microcode? Or > perhaps just a enough ROM to bootstrap the main microcode off a disk (as > the PEEQ does). There's no instruction set built into the machine in that > case. This is actually quite common. CADR lisp machines work in exactly this way. Technically speaking, this is known as a dynamic instruction set, its simply not fixed. > > implement another > > processor, like the worlds fasted PDP-8, coded on an 11/60. > > Are you saying that if I take a PERQ and run the original POS microcode > then it's not an emulator (because that was the instruction set it was > originally designed to run, even though there's almost no hardware or > firmware specific features to aid in running that microcode) but if I > boot PNX (PERQ Unix, which uses a different microcode, optimised (?) for > C) then it's an emulator? > > -tony A PERQ running POS microcode is simply a PERQ running with one instrucion set, and a PERQ running PNX is running a different instuction set. Because both instruction sets are running at the same level of hardware abstraction, and not mimicing another machine, neither is an emulator! Emulators are simply mimics of other machines, however they are implemented. From uban at ubanproductions.com Sat Sep 22 09:12:24 2001 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20010922091224.008db9d0@ubanproductions.com> At 02:35 AM 9/22/01 +0100, you wrote: >> >> The book: "Computer Organization & Design, The Hardware/Software Interface", >> by David A. Patterson and John L. Hennessy is a pretty thorough modern book. > >Yes, unfortunately it is a 'modern book'. I read some of Hennessy and >Patterson once, and found it was great at telling me how to analyse a >processor design, and optimise it, and things like that, but it didn't >really tell me how to do the design in the first place. > >It seems to have been written for the modern 'engineer' -- the sort that >couldn't design an engine (in the original meaning of 'ingenious >mechanism') if his life depended on it. And as you might have guessed by >now, I have little time for 'engineers' who can't design and build >examples of the things they claim to understand. > >You couldn't take that book and learn enough to start wiring up gates and >flip-flops to make a processor :-( I beg to differ. I feel that the book does a fairly good job of covering all aspects of processor design to date. It does in fact describe how the ALU is implemented along with the data paths necessary to feed it. It also importantly covers the hows and whys of the control plane needed to make the data path function. The book teaches all of the various arithmetic concepts (like floating point) which are now expected in modern designs. With these more basic concepts, it also covers the hows and whys of performance. While it does not teach you how to use a wire wrap tool, it does cover basic logic design concepts (in an appendix) as well. Perhaps in your case it just has too many references to the popular processors of the day for your taste. But, just because they are popular today, does not mean that they cannot be powerful learning tools, even for those who are interested in the processors of yesteryear... What it does not do is give you a schematic of a processor and hold your hand while describing each gate. If this is what you want, then perhaps the set of (KB11-A central processor unit maintenance manual, PDP-11/45 and PDP-11/50 system maintenance manual, and 11/45-0 engineering drawings) would be a better instructional set. Let's face it. No one book is going to teach someone everything that they need to know to be able to design the next "great" processor. There is also nothing better to teach a subject than to learn from what others have done in the past. --tom From bshannon at tiac.net Sat Sep 22 09:32:33 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BACA101.63897EC1@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > While the line between assembly code and microcode is often grey, when it > > Ah, you've finally admitted that the distinction is somewhat unclear in > some cases. This doesn't make the terms 'machine code' and 'microcode' > useless of course, but it may also mean (and does IMHO) that the PDP11 > emulator that started this thread can be considered to be microcode. Yes, the distinction is unclear in some cases, but not at the levels your trying to fit these terms into. > > takes more than an instruction to read main memory, chances are your at the > > 'Instruction' or 'Microcycle'? Technically it takes one microinstruction > to get a PERQ to access memory, but several microcycles. You have to set > up the address, execute the memory read microinstruction (which sets a > state machine running to do the memory access) and then read in the data > on subsequent microcycles. Micro-instruction technically speaking. The PERQ takes several microinstructions to read main memory, while an assembly level instruction may perform several memory cycles per instruction. There is an huge, and very clear difference here. > Suppose I write a PDP11 Emulator program for the Pentium. But this one is > a little strange in that it uses hardly any RAM on the Pentium bus (maybe > a couple of K for a stack and state varialbles, and so on). It expects to > find a few I/O ports in the Pentium I/O space that are linked to normal > RAM (say 22 bits output for the address, 16 bits out/16 bits in for the > data, and a few control lines). It accesses the user program in that > memory by executing several I/O instructions on the Pentium (and other > instructions besides). It outputs the address, fiddles with the mrmory > control lines, reads in the data word. The point here is, your running assembly-level instructions that are implemented with true microcode already. So you clearly are not writing microcode, your writing assembly level code for a Pentium. This is totally clear in your first sentance above! > I now take a bare Pentium CPU, stick it on a PCB (with the clock circuit, > etc), add this 'emulator' in a ROM on the Pentium bus, and then add the > I/O ports accessing memory. > > Is that emulator now microcode by your definiton? If not, why not? No, its not microcode. Its an assembly-level program that emulates a PDP11. Why not? Because there already is microcode running, or your Pentium cannot run your assembly level program. Whats unclear here? If you want to run microcode, fire up a PERQ. If you write assembly-level programs for a Pentium, your writing an assembly level program, not CPU microcode. Once again, these terms have definitions already. Learn them, and use them correctly, please. > > I suppose this completely depends on which books you have read. > > Eh???? Which books do you think I've read, then? I have no idea Tony. But I've written microcode, and also assembly level code. There is a vast difference between them. > Not to me it isn't, and I don't have any problem with understanding > hardware at the gate level (or below). > > -tony Sorry, I don't seem to be able to help here. All I can say is that your useage of the terms is totally incorrect as they are used by people who write both assembly-level and microprograms. There is a full order of magnitude of difference in the degree of hardware abstraction between these two very different forms of programming. It appears to me that your trying to defend the incorrect usage of a cool-sounding term, you clearly have some emotional attachment to. As this list is about computers and their technology, I wanted to step forward and correct this misuse of terms to prevent others from learning a highly incorrect usage that can only sow more confusion. From strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl Sat Sep 22 09:35:22 2001 From: strzecha at kis.p.lodz.pl (Krzysztof Strzecha) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? Message-ID: <3BACA1AA.7E262D0F@kis.p.lodz.pl> Press: [2nd][Mode][Alpha][S]. Then press any key except [ENTER], if you dont want to erase calculator memory. Krzysztof "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > It's been so long since I've dealt with these things... how do I get the ROM > version again? > > Blair > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Krzysztof Strzecha" > To: > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:21 AM > Subject: Re: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? > > > "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > > > > > I have an 86 if you want me to create a ROM image of it... but you'll > > have > > > to instruct me on how to do it... I have the serial link cable. > > > > > > Blair > > > > > > > Hi > > I am author of TI-81, TI-85 and TI-86 drivers for MESS > > (http://mess.emuverse.com) multiemulator. What version of rom do you > > have in > > your TI-86 ? I was able to found only version: 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and 1.6. If > > it is > > diffrent I am also interested in image of this rom. > > > > Krzysztof Strzecha > > > > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 22 10:01:28 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010922091224.008db9d0@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <001e01c14377$76b001a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What's unfortunate, at least from where I sit, is that though some sources give you a schematic or an HDL of a CPU, yet they don't tell you WHY the choices made in its design were made. Normally such decisions are normally driven by requirements, be it for performance, or for specific addressing modes, chip size, or whatever. It seems we never see light shed on such matters. One caution is certainly warranted, however. Fully synchronous design became the default method of designing circuits of anysubstance in the mid-late '80's. One result, of course, was that signal races were easily avoided, and, with the use of pipelining, it allowed for the acceleration of some processes at the cost of increased latency. The use of fully sunchronous design drove up CPU cost, however, and was not an automatically assumed strategy in the early '70's, so you've got to consider WHEN a design was specified before making any assumptions about why things were done in a given way. Classic CPU's were mostly NOT fully synchronous, as fully synchronous design required the use of costlier faster logic families throughout a design when that wasn't necessarily warranted. Today's FPGA and CPLD devices, when used to host a classic CPU design, eliminate the justifications for asynchronous design strategies that were popular in the early '70's - late '80's. Their use essentially requires the design be synchronous, not only because signal distribution/routing resources are limited, but because propagation delays are so different from wht they were in the original discrete version. Anybody wishing to go through the process of CPU design, which, BTW, is a required course in most EE curricula, needs to complete a thorough requirements analysis just to put some firm limits on what the end-product has got to be. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Uban" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 8:12 AM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > At 02:35 AM 9/22/01 +0100, you wrote: > >> > >> The book: "Computer Organization & Design, The Hardware/Software > Interface", > >> by David A. Patterson and John L. Hennessy is a pretty thorough modern > book. > > > >Yes, unfortunately it is a 'modern book'. I read some of Hennessy and > >Patterson once, and found it was great at telling me how to analyse a > >processor design, and optimise it, and things like that, but it didn't > >really tell me how to do the design in the first place. > > > >It seems to have been written for the modern 'engineer' -- the sort that > >couldn't design an engine (in the original meaning of 'ingenious > >mechanism') if his life depended on it. And as you might have guessed by > >now, I have little time for 'engineers' who can't design and build > >examples of the things they claim to understand. > > > >You couldn't take that book and learn enough to start wiring up gates and > >flip-flops to make a processor :-( > > I beg to differ. I feel that the book does a fairly good job of covering > all aspects of processor design to date. It does in fact describe how the > ALU is implemented along with the data paths necessary to feed it. It > also importantly covers the hows and whys of the control plane needed to > make the data path function. The book teaches all of the various arithmetic > concepts (like floating point) which are now expected in modern designs. > With these more basic concepts, it also covers the hows and whys of > performance. > > While it does not teach you how to use a wire wrap tool, it does cover > basic logic design concepts (in an appendix) as well. Perhaps in your > case it just has too many references to the popular processors of the > day for your taste. But, just because they are popular today, does not > mean that they cannot be powerful learning tools, even for those who > are interested in the processors of yesteryear... > > What it does not do is give you a schematic of a processor and hold your > hand while describing each gate. If this is what you want, then perhaps > the set of (KB11-A central processor unit maintenance manual, PDP-11/45 > and PDP-11/50 system maintenance manual, and 11/45-0 engineering drawings) > would be a better instructional set. > > Let's face it. No one book is going to teach someone everything that they > need to know to be able to design the next "great" processor. There is > also nothing better to teach a subject than to learn from what others > have done in the past. > > --tom > > From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat Sep 22 10:40:36 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Moving VMS In-Reply-To: <918.665T850T2044579optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: It should work with a few caveats: 1) The different hardware on the machines should not be a problem since VMS configures itself dynamically each boot (you don't need a customized vs. generic kernel like unix). The exception might be if one machine came out after your version of VMS was introduced. 2) Licenses may not work across the machines, depending on what you're doing for licenses. The hobby ones should be OK. On 22 Sep 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote: > First of all, I'm lagging far behind with my mail reading, and I don't think > I've managed to thank those who provided me with the necessary help for > cracking my VAXstation. Now I'm fumbling around in VMS. What a queer system, > I'm totally lost, but some manual reading will probably provide necessary > orientation. > Anyway, thank you, Jochen (?) et al. > > Now, I've got three functioning VMS 5.5 disks. And we've got a MicroVAX 3100 > without system disks. Would it be possible to just connect one of my spare > disks to the SCSI bus on the ?VAX or would the system crash and burn when it > couldn't find any graphics hardware and perhaps not the exact same peripheral > systems (these are disks from a VAXstation 3100, so they're close relatives)? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > "Real life is full of idiots, and tons of ads. I don't see how IRC is any > different, other than a lot more people want to have sex with you." > -- m3000 > -- From chris at mainecoon.com Sat Sep 22 10:55:01 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BACA101.63897EC1@tiac.net> Message-ID: Bob Shannon wrote: [stuff deleted] > Because there already is microcode running, or your Pentium cannot run your assembly > level program. Whats unclear here? I'm reading this as suggesting that if any of the logic used to deliver a set of abstractions is soft then the next higher level of abstraction (which is _usually_ the ISA of the processor) cannot be considered microcode. That might be a useful metric, but, as you acknowledge, nanocode exists, so the utility of this metric as a definition of microcode vs. something else is at least suspect. > If you want to run microcode, fire up a PERQ. If you write assembly-level programs for > a Pentium, your writing an assembly level program, not CPU microcode. > > Once again, these terms have definitions already. Learn them, and use them correctly, > please. Well, here's _one_ textbook definition of microcode: "...programming that is ordinarily not program-addressable, but, unlike hardwired logic, is capable of being modified..." which says nothing about other levels of microcode, nor about the complexity of the abstraction on which the microprogram executes. It's notable that IBM uses the "well-defined" term "microcode" to describe what most of us would consider "firmware". The definition of microcode can certainly be fuzzy, and Tony has already postulated an implementation using processors rather than discrete logic or bitslices that would meet the definition above. > I have no idea Tony. But I've written microcode, and also assembly level code. There > is a vast difference between them. I'm fairly certain most of us have written both, and this thread is prompting some of us to ask just _what_ the real difference is between the two. Thus far I've seen two arguments advanced as to why what is being described is an "emulator" rather than "microcode", and they seem to revolve around two arguments: - It can't be called microcode if there's microcode beneath the abstraction at which you're coding. Obviously this one can be dismissed by using a non-microcoded processor as the functional unit. - There is some level of hardware abstraction above which it can't be considered microcode. I'm not sure how this gets translated into a quantitative metric. It's can't run on anything more complex than a sequencer? By that definition the code on the K6 isn't microcode, it's an emulator. Execution of an "instruction" takes more than one memory cycle? Given speculative fetching of blocks of memory on contemporary processors it's possible for an "instruction" to execute with zero memory references. It's just "too complex"? By that definition the B1700/1800 didn't have an assembly language. What other characteristics might be used as metrics? Long instructions words? There are certainly VLIW machines out there, so that doesn't work. The need to "carefully" schedule instructions? That demands certainly exists in some implementations of some RISC ISAs. I'm having trouble seeing hard-and-fast rules here. > All I can say is that your useage of the terms is totally incorrect as they are used by > people who write both assembly-level and microprograms. Well, I've done both, and at this point I can hardly agree that Tony's usage is "totally incorrect". > There is a full order of magnitude of difference in the degree of hardware > abstraction between these two very different forms of programming. Which takes me back to the K6. A die with dual RISC processors running code which fetches, cracks and "executes" X86 instructions. By the definition being advanced by Tony this is clearly microcode; by your definition it's not -- it's an emulator -- yet any CPU designer that I know (including myself) would certainly consider it to be microcode. In a purely empirical sense, the appellation "microcode" isn't bounded by the complexity of the underlying hardware abstraction. It's nothing more than part of the logic used to deliver another abstraction. Likewise there's nothing to prevent an "emulator" from running out of control store -- the most absurd of which being machines which performed simultaneous emulations of several ISAs, performing microcontext switching between them. > It appears to me that your trying to defend the incorrect usage of a cool-sounding term, > you clearly have some emotional attachment to. Who has an emotional attachment? I've been writing both microprograms and assemhly crap for more than a quarter century and _I_ can't see a clear distinction, and your definition is clearly at odds with that used by IBM -- which at the very least suggests that the term is not as well-defined as you'd like to believe. > As this list is about computers and their technology, I wanted to step forward and > correct this misuse of terms to prevent others from learning a highly incorrect usage > that can only sow more confusion. Thank god you're here! -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From millerbj at umich.edu Sat Sep 22 11:33:11 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? References: <3BACA1AA.7E262D0F@kis.p.lodz.pl> Message-ID: <000901c14384$45513ae0$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Got it. I'm actually useless to you... I've got 1.2, which I'm almost sure is the first ROM version, considering that I bought this thing THE DAY it came out... yes, I know. Big nerd. I was in high school. I've moved on... Really... Blair ----- Original Message ----- From: "Krzysztof Strzecha" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 10:35 AM Subject: Re: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? > Press: [2nd][Mode][Alpha][S]. Then press any key except [ENTER], if you > dont > want to erase calculator memory. > > Krzysztof > > "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > > > It's been so long since I've dealt with these things... how do I get > the ROM > > version again? > > > > Blair > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Krzysztof Strzecha" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 11:21 AM > > Subject: Re: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing > calculator? > > > > > "Blair J. Miller" wrote: > > > > > > > I have an 86 if you want me to create a ROM image of it... but > you'll > > > have > > > > to instruct me on how to do it... I have the serial link cable. > > > > > > > > Blair > > > > > > > > > > Hi > > > I am author of TI-81, TI-85 and TI-86 drivers for MESS > > > (http://mess.emuverse.com) multiemulator. What version of rom do you > > > > have in > > > your TI-86 ? I was able to found only version: 1.2, 1.3, 1.4 and > 1.6. If > > > it is > > > diffrent I am also interested in image of this rom. > > > > > > Krzysztof Strzecha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From zmerch at 30below.com Sat Sep 22 12:11:07 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Address Decoding for Dummies! (was: SPDT Dip Switches... In-Reply-To: <10109160030.ZM7783@unknown.zmail.host> References: <3.0.1.32.20010915144215.00e5d908@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010922101601.00ad3b38@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Pete Turnbull may have mentioned these words: >On Sep 15, 14:42, Roger Merchberger wrote: [snip] >(It can be done > > easily without the switches -- I could use a jumper block without > > heartburn, but the switches would look neater, and wouldn't have the >chance > > for floating inputs/outputs...) > >In other words, this: [snip gfx of my idear...] Yup. >Wouldn't this be easier and do the same thing? [snip better idear...] Probably. I did mention that I was primarily a softee-ware guy -- and when dealing with chips I have a tendency to think of them *as software* -- like: if you try to write to a ROM, what happens? Nothing. (duh...) I looked at the chip specs for the demux, and you have inputs & outputs... In my mind (at first), your suggestion was "ramming 5V down an output port" and sometimes I have to stop & think that "those ports are just a bunch of gates jammed together on a chip to serve one purpose" and doing stuff like that is not a "Bad Thing (TM)." :-) The design continues... :-) >I've just seen Tony's reply, and his suggestion using a MUX would have been >my next suggestion too. It's also easier to extend to more address bits >(fewer switches required). My board isn't a "complete" board -- it's to be designed to make experimenting much easier by having flexible on-board address decoding, and (at least for my purposes) I want "one address per switch", so I'm not sure if the MUX suggestion is what I want. As of right now (but I'm still researching CoCo memory maps) I'm looking to have an 8K ROM socket at the "normal" location ($C000-DFFF) w/jumper as to whether or not it will auto-start (jumpering the Cart signal to the Q line) and I'm looking at having the address decoding for my I/O ports at $FF50-3 & $FF60-3, but if I want *just* $FF51 & $FF53 to be decoded & $FF50 & $FF52 to be ignored, I want to be able to switch them individually. (Originally, my design was just going to have 1 address decoded from each "bank", but then I realized that if I wanted to interface "most anything" like a PIA, UART or a FDC that it wouldn't work.) For anyone here who does their own hardware designing, what software do you use? I've tried "Protel 99 SE" and CircuitMaker 6 (student version) -- and a few others, and I must say that I'm not keen on most anything I've tried compared to "good ol' AutoCad". Anyway, an updated (and large) picture (of both sides of traces - red is solder-side, lt. blue is component side) of the board is here: http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/xpndr1/CoCoBoard.gif (118k, 16color, looks like crap, but is smaller than the jpg) http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/xpndr1/CoCoBoard.jpg (180k, 24bit color, looks decent but is a slow download for modem users) http://www.30below.com/~zmerch/xpndr1/CoCoBoard.dwg (85k, but only viewable if you have AutoCad .dwg compatible software...) As the board I started out with was just a bare board, I seriously doubt that I'd get into any type of copyright trouble by the time this thing gets to press; everything you see in the pix stemmed from my own brain... Oh, I've found a really good site to purchase all manners of circuit board "stuff" w/really good prices, too: http://www.web-tronics.com/printed-circuit-board-supplies.html As always, Thanks everybody for all the help I've received so far... Roger "Merch" Merchberger From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 22 12:48:03 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: FS: IBM style mini-centronics 68 SCSI cables Message-ID: Contact me via DIRECT EMAIL on these... Here's some hard to find cables for IBM PS/2 and RS/6000 systems for SCSI external hookup. All are high quality black, like new, except for the first batch of 1 ft cables that are beige: 1 ft Centronics 50male to Centronics 50 male "jumpers" - great for case to case stringers. $3.99 each, have 24 of them. 3 ft mini-centronics 68 male to high-density 50 male (clip type) $6.99 each, have 4. 5 ft mini-centronics 68 male to high-density 50 male (clip type) $14.99 each, have 11 3 ft mini-centronics 68 male to standard Centronics 50 male - $6.99 each, have 7 5 ft mini-centronics 68 maile to standard Centronics 50 male - $14.99 each, have 10 10 ft mini-centronics 68 male to high density 68 male (screw type) $21.99 each, have 3. The above does NOT include shipping. I don't charge for slamming it in a box and taking it to the post office either, just the rounded postage (regular or priority) with delivery confirmation. Shipping is from zip 42726 in KY. I may also work out pickups for locals in the evenings/weekends if desired. Right now I *will* ship to USA, APO/FPO and Canada but will ship to others if I don't get stuck doing a ton of paperwork. US funds only, can take money orders or Paypal. Paypal ships out the same/next day as payment is made. Money orders when it's recieved. Now the kicker - I'm posting any not spoken for (serious buyer only) on ebay on 9/27 for the general PS2 and RS6000 crowd to have a shot at. Anyone that has me hold one/some for them MUST make payment in reasonable time, say a week to 1 days after they have me hold some for them. If they stand me up I'll just put those cables on ebay later on but they certainly will be remembered for future offerings and I'm just getting started with the opening of my stash of IBM stuff. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/30167577/attachment.html From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 22 12:58:13 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. Message-ID: <003601c14391$0ae6c7a0$77ef9a8d@ajp166> From: Bob Shannon > >I understand your confusion here, but in this case there already is something >defined as microcode. Simply adding another layer of complexity does not change >the underlaying microcode that runs directly on the hardware, its still the microcode >of the engine. This underlaying microcode still implements the instruction set of >the physical CPU hardware. Because what your calling a microcoded engine is really running as your microcode something that used to be called macrocoding. IE: your "microcode" engine a Pentium understands yet another lower level code (internal pentium microcode). In the end what you have been decribing is emulation. If your pentium drove hardware that was say 36 bits wide and ran code to drive it as say a KL-10A then the pentium would be a fully macrocoded microengine. It's does not say a Pentium running dedicated code to emulate any machine in such a way as to hide the pentium completely is not a useful device. The terminology of microcomputers was laid down a long time ago and if you change meanings or the application of said meanings you invoke confusion. Allison From jhellige at earthlink.net Sat Sep 22 13:15:09 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <001e01c14377$76b001a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010922091224.008db9d0@ubanproductions.com> <001e01c14377$76b001a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >Classic CPU's were mostly NOT fully synchronous, as fully synchronous design >required the use of costlier faster logic families throughout a >design when that >wasn't necessarily warranted. Today's FPGA and CPLD devices, when >used to host >a classic CPU design, eliminate the justifications for asynchronous design >strategies that were popular in the early '70's - late '80's. Their use >essentially requires the design be synchronous, not only because signal >distribution/routing resources are limited, but because propagation delays are >so different from wht they were in the original discrete version. There's currently talk on the FLEX email list of implementing a new CPU in an FPGA or CPLD for use in existing SS-30/SS-50 bus systems in conjunction with things such as Michael Holley's new floppy controller, as well as reducing the overall board count needed for a complete system, including I/O and RAM, down to two. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 22 13:11:02 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Moving VMS Message-ID: <004501c14393$2505dfc0$77ef9a8d@ajp166> From: Iggy Drougge >Now, I've got three functioning VMS 5.5 disks. And we've got a MicroVAX 3100 >without system disks. Would it be possible to just connect one of my spare >disks to the SCSI bus on the ?VAX or would the system crash and burn when it >couldn't find any graphics hardware and perhaps not the exact same peripheral >systems (these are disks from a VAXstation 3100, so they're close relatives)? Should not be a problem as I've dont it here. The better way is to start from a working system with a drive that is blank (for use in the target vax) and invoking VMSbuild to create a copy of VMS on the target disk. Then that target disk can be booted and proceed as if it was a regular VMSinstall. We used this trick years ago to put VMS on RD54s to install on new microvaxen (MV-II) faster than using TK50 ot MOP. Allison From vcf at vintage.org Sat Sep 22 13:42:28 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Announcing Aftermath Technologies Message-ID: As a favor to the Alameda County Computer Resource Center in Oakland, California, who is hosting the VCF Archives as well as the upcoming VCF 5.0 (still to be rescheduled) I'm announcing their relatively new retail venture, Aftermath Technologies. Basically, anything they have in their warehouse is up for sale. They've taken pictures of a whole lot of stuff and have thrown them up on their website. Some of it is priced, most of it is "make an offer". They've got everything under the sun: all kinds of computers, peripherals, hard drives, disk drives, monitors, keyboards, mice, routers, hubs, chassis, printers, modems, scanners, cables, connectors, phones, VCRs, video equipment, books, manuals, software, random crap... Most of it is modern or semi-modern. Some of it is classic (lots of Apple ][s, TRS-80s, older Macs, etc). There's also lots of eclectic stuff in there too. These folks get in truckloads of gear every week. What doesn't get placed in schools and charities or sold gets shipped off to China for recycling. Your patronage contributes to a very good cause! Anything you buy will help them carry on their mission to refurbish old computers that get donated to schools and charities. Help educate the next generation! The URL is http://www.aftermathtechnologies.com. Make sure to check out the "Featured Items" catalog, as there are some gems in there. Don't be scared by the high pricing of some stuff. They just don't know what to ask for most of it. I tried to help them price some of the classic stuff but the changes have apparently not made it to the website yet. So go and DIG!!! There is lots and lots of stuff. If you are looking for just past modern PC or Mac bits then this is the place to go buy it from. http://www.aftermathtechnologies.com/ Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sat Sep 22 14:40:58 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <001e01c14377$76b001a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>; from edick@idcomm.com on Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:01:28AM -0600 References: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010922091224.008db9d0@ubanproductions.com> <001e01c14377$76b001a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20010922124058.B13427@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:01:28AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > One caution is certainly warranted, however. Fully synchronous design became > the default method of designing circuits of anysubstance in the mid-late '80's. The pendulum may be swinging back toward asynchronous design. http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2001-3/0921f.html#item13 The ACM article mentions the increased speed of asynchronous designs. As you said, they are hard to analyze (and keep running); the article turns that into an advantage by pointing out that hackers can't analyze them easily either. :) I don't necessarily buy the reasoning (these articles are pretty superficial) but the point still bears thinking about. -- Derek From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Sat Sep 22 15:43:35 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board vs Deluxe Option Board Message-ID: Hi, I recently acquired a couple of Central Point Deluxe Option Boards with v5.4 of the software, plus manuals. (I haven't tested either card yet though.) This card allows protected and wierd-format disks to be read and written using a standard PC floppy drive. The supplied software supports Mac and Amiga disks as well as Apple II and Commodore. I guess the hardware is functionally similar to the Catweasel ISA card. Anyway, relating to that a few points: - If anyone needs disk images of the software (3?" 720K or 5?" 360K), I can upload them. My disks have not been written to since new. - What was the last version of the software? I read a newsgroup posting from 1997 that mentioned versions 5.5 and 6.0. - What differences are there between the Option Board and Deluxe Option Board? Looking at a picture in an eBay auction listing, the Option Board card appears to use quite a few discrete (TTL?) ICs, whereas the Deluxe card (or at least, the cards I have), uses an ASIC made by Toshiba. Does the ASIC simply replicate the discrete ICs, or contain extra functionality? - Has anyone reverse-engineered the hardware? Only the discrete-IC version would be feasible, I guess. In combination with disassembling the software, that should provide sufficient info to allow new software that accesses the Option Board to be written. - Has anyone reverse-engineered the disk image file format used by the software? I know someone has written a program to convert image files created from Apple II disks to plain disk images for use with Apple emulators; see http://www.ece.nwu.edu/~cbachmann/apple.html There is a description of some of the file format on that page. - Ideally, I'd like to contact someone who was involved with the development of either the hardware or software; maybe they could provide info on how it works. - On a similar note, what was the last version of Central Point's Copy II PC software? That program could be used to copy some protected PC disks without needing extra hardware. -- Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 22 15:05:33 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board vs Deluxe Option Board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2001, Mark wrote: > - What differences are there between the Option Board and Deluxe Option > Board? Looking at a picture in an eBay auction listing, the Option Board > card appears to use quite a few discrete (TTL?) ICs, whereas the Deluxe > card (or at least, the cards I have), uses an ASIC made by Toshiba. Does > the ASIC simply replicate the discrete ICs, or contain extra functionality? The deluxe can handle a wider range of data transfer rates. That is needed for the Mac formats. IIRC, later models of the "regular" were also ASIC. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From west at tseinc.com Sun Sep 23 04:14:30 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Organization tips? References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010919140418.00a74050@mcmanis.com> <15275.48714.927996.284344@phaduka.neurotica.com> <007101c142fd$cf413200$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <00d601c14410$28504800$0101a8c0@jay> Someone wrote... ----- Original Message ----- > > So does anyone have a preferred way in which they organize all the many > > hundreds of bits of stuff you need when you are keeping older computers > alive? I try to keep all the hundreds of bits of stuff I need to keep older computers alive - inside the core plane. Normally I organize them by X/Y co-ordinates. Jay West From zaft at azstarnet.com Sat Sep 22 16:51:38 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:44 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. Thanks in advance. GZ From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 22 17:01:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level References: <3.0.5.32.20010921072920.0089c610@ubanproductions.com> <3.0.5.32.20010922091224.008db9d0@ubanproductions.com> <001e01c14377$76b001a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010922124058.B13427@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <001801c143b2$2a4fd840$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> While it makes sense that clock distribution would increase power consumption, I don't think that synchronous/vs asynchronous design is the point of the article to which you refer. Synchronous designs do, however, require that every stage of the "pipeline" is clocked from the same clock, there are ways of synchonizing events between asynchronous modules in a circuit that minimize the risks of metastability, and that's the principal bugaboo that gave rise to the popularity of all-synchronous design. Moreover, it requires somewhat more imagination and resourcefulness to design efficiently interacting asynchronous circuits, which tend, generally to be a mite thriftier if implemented in discrete components, yet yield little benefit to the designer of CPLD/FPGA-based logic. The type of CPU they're referring to in this case, methinks, is a level-latched rather than edge-triggered-flip-flop based architecture. It has some potential, but, since it's not the cookbook sort of structure that is taught in colleges these days, it will be a while before it's fully explored. The MOT 6800 and MOS-Technology 650x types used that sort of approach, using the "clock" to gate and steer rather than to trigger events. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Peschel" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 1:40 PM Subject: Re: CPU design at the gate level > On Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 09:01:28AM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > > One caution is certainly warranted, however. Fully synchronous design became > > the default method of designing circuits of anysubstance in the mid-late '80's. > > The pendulum may be swinging back toward asynchronous design. > > http://www.acm.org/technews/articles/2001-3/0921f.html#item13 > > The ACM article mentions the increased speed of asynchronous designs. As > you said, they are hard to analyze (and keep running); the article turns > that into an advantage by pointing out that hackers can't analyze them > easily either. :) > > I don't necessarily buy the reasoning (these articles are pretty > superficial) but the point still bears thinking about. > > -- Derek > > From donm at cts.com Sat Sep 22 17:07:55 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board vs Deluxe Option Board In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Sat, 22 Sep 2001, Mark wrote: > > - What differences are there between the Option Board and Deluxe Option > > Board? Looking at a picture in an eBay auction listing, the Option Board > > card appears to use quite a few discrete (TTL?) ICs, whereas the Deluxe > > card (or at least, the cards I have), uses an ASIC made by Toshiba. Does > > the ASIC simply replicate the discrete ICs, or contain extra functionality? > > The deluxe can handle a wider range of data transfer rates. That is > needed for the Mac formats. > > IIRC, later models of the "regular" were also ASIC. True, I have several of the Option Boards kicking around here with different Copyright dates silk screened on them. The 1986 ones come in both discrete and ASIC versions, while the 1987 ones are all ASIC. - don > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 22 17:10:52 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? In-Reply-To: Archiving floppies? (Gordon Zaft) References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <15277.3180.468213.229167@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 22, Gordon Zaft wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for > archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk > images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so > that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm > assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although > DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. I'd just dd(1) them from to a file, gzip them, and save the disk images. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From salo at Xtrmntr.org Sat Sep 22 18:17:29 2001 From: salo at Xtrmntr.org (salo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <20010923011729.A5866@Xtrmntr.org> On Sat, Sep 22, 2001 at 02:51:38PM -0700, Gordon Zaft wrote: > > Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for > archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk > images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so > that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm > assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although > DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. rawrite / rawread e.g. downloadable from: http://hubble.physik.uni-konstanz.de/jkrueger/windows/rawrite.exe http://hubble.physik.uni-konstanz.de/jkrueger/windows/rawread.exe or dd in any generic *nix. regards, -- -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ / -- -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / \ -- From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Sat Sep 22 18:53:36 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: DEC Cables BC18Z BC23J Message-ID: <000701c143c1$cccde800$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> I finally found a cable and monitor for my VAXstation II/GPX! I haul it home then notice the label on the cable is BC23J not the BC18Z I was expecting. Is the BC23J just a newer version of the BC18Z? Or did my 3100 just get a colour monitor? I also picked up a DEC Multia today with Schematics! Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 12:50:02 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20010922091224.008db9d0@ubanproductions.com> from "Tom Uban" at Sep 22, 1 09:12:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2365 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/ffff8148/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 18:12:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs In-Reply-To: <3BACA101.63897EC1@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 22, 1 10:32:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3644 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/64e3be16/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 17:44:56 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAC9C85.5C982ACB@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 22, 1 10:13:25 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 10400 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/01af8d06/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 17:50:04 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAC9D8E.A0174ACB@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 22, 1 10:17:50 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1831 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/ff9b2dea/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 22 18:25:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: from "Chris Kennedy" at Sep 22, 1 08:55:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4351 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/9b8aa68b/attachment.ksh From jfoust at threedee.com Sat Sep 22 19:06:04 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? In-Reply-To: <15277.3180.468213.229167@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010922184503.02240f00@pc> At 06:10 PM 9/22/01 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >On September 22, Gordon Zaft wrote: >> Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for >> archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk >> images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so >> that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm >> assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although >> DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. > > I'd just dd(1) them from to a file, gzip them, and save the disk >images. When I archived my collection of PC 5 1/4s a while back, I choose to use .zip archives. Unless the disks have a boot sector or are non-FAT, do you really need a disk image? On the other hand, I can't help but think some crafty hacker must've created a device driver for a PC that'll mount a floppy image as if it were an actual floppy. - John From spc at conman.org Sat Sep 22 19:27:34 2001 From: spc at conman.org (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAC9D8E.A0174ACB@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 22, 2001 10:17:50 AM Message-ID: <200109230027.UAA22846@conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Bob Shannon once stated: > > A PERQ running POS microcode is simply a PERQ running with one instrucion set, and a > PERQ running PNX is running a different instuction set. Because both instruction sets > are running at the same level of hardware abstraction, and not mimicing another > machine, neither is an emulator! > > Emulators are simply mimics of other machines, however they are implemented. But the PERQ with the POS microcode is emulating a POS machine! And an Apple ][ with the POS environment is emulation a POS machine! One is in hardware, one in software. The only difference is one of speed really. The Tandy Color Computer has three one bit ports for serial I/O. One for carrier detect, one for transmission and one for receiving. To send one byte using 8n1 at 300 baud, you have to send the start bit for .003 of a second, then send out each bit to the one bit port and hold the line steady for .003 of a second, then the stop bit for .003 of a second. On the IBM PC (and compatibles) you have access to a UART (an 8250 or 8250 compatible device) and all you have to do is set the chip to send 8n1, set the bps, and then once that is set, you check the status to see if it can send, and once it's clear to send, you write the byte to a register. Software. Hardware. One is slower, but more flexible (I can do 9e3 at 472 bps if I need to) while the other one is faster but less flexible (I can't do 9e3 at 472). And what you can do in software, you can do in hardware, and vice-versa. -spc (It's interpreters all the way down!) From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sat Sep 22 19:17:30 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Address Decoding for Dummies! (was: SPDT Dip Switches... In-Reply-To: Roger Merchberger "Address Decoding for Dummies! (was: SPDT Dip Switches..." (Sep 22, 13:11) References: <3.0.1.32.20010915144215.00e5d908@mail.30below.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20010922101601.00ad3b38@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <10109230117.ZM11777@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 22, 13:11, Roger Merchberger wrote: > I did mention that I was primarily a softee-ware guy -- and when > dealing with chips I have a tendency to think of them *as software* -- > like: if you try to write to a ROM, what happens? Nothing. (duh...) Well, not unless you use "more interesting" voltages :-) > I > looked at the chip specs for the demux, and you have inputs & outputs... In > my mind (at first), your suggestion was "ramming 5V down an output port" > and sometimes I have to stop & think that "those ports are just a bunch of > gates jammed together on a chip to serve one purpose" and doing stuff like > that is not a "Bad Thing (TM)." :-) > My board isn't a "complete" board -- it's to be designed to make > experimenting much easier by having flexible on-board address decoding, and > (at least for my purposes) I want "one address per switch", so I'm not sure > if the MUX suggestion is what I want. As of right now (but I'm still > researching CoCo memory maps) I'm looking to have an 8K ROM socket at the > "normal" location ($C000-DFFF) w/jumper as to whether or not it will > auto-start (jumpering the Cart signal to the Q line) and I'm looking at > having the address decoding for my I/O ports at $FF50-3 & $FF60-3, but if I > want *just* $FF51 & $FF53 to be decoded & $FF50 & $FF52 to be ignored, I > want to be able to switch them individually. > (Originally, my design was just going to have 1 address decoded from each > "bank", but then I realized that if I wanted to interface "most anything" > like a PIA, UART or a FDC that it wouldn't work.) Let's see if I'm interpreting this correctly. I think you want to be able to decode addresses, but sometimes you want to be able to provide (let's say) two "enable" outputs, each active for a separate group of addresses (maybe two different ranges of four addresses each), and sometimes you want to be able to provide more finely selected enables (maybe responding to only one address in each range). I can see why you'd want to that if one day you are using a UART that needs four addresses and another time you use a a PIO or VIA that needs 8 or 16 addresses. A couple of ideas that come to mind are using a PROM or PAL to do the decoding. A PAL or GAL would probably operate faster than a PROM, but it might be easier to program a PROM (depending on how used you are to building tables for PROMs, logic rules for PALs, and what programming tolls you have access to). For example, suppose you have a PROM with 8 address and 4 data outputs. You could fill it with data such that certain data outputs were at the appropriate "active" level if (and only if) 6 of the address lines were in a certain state, ie were driven with a certain address(es). By tailoring the data appropriately, you could arrange it so that the outputs took account of all 6 address bits, or just (say) four). The other two address bits I'd use as a function selector: if both are low, the output is active for a range of addresses (only 4 bits significant); if one is high, respond to the first two addresses in the range; if the other is high, respond to the upper part of the range; if both high, respond only to the highest single address in the range. Or something like that, to suit the job in hand. Depending on the exact requirement, you might still be able to do this with a MUX or two. A multiplexer is a very useful general-purpose logic element, widely used as a circuit building block, not just for the obvious "if the clock phase is high, select the refresh/video addresses; if low, select the CPU addresses" sort of operation. > For anyone here who does their own hardware designing, what software do you > use? I've tried "Protel 99 SE" and CircuitMaker 6 (student version) -- and > a few others, and I must say that I'm not keen on most anything I've tried > compared to "good ol' AutoCad". I use an assortment. Often I use the drawing package from RISC OS on one of my Acorn machines. From time to time I've used 'pcb' on a Unix system. > Oh, I've found a really good site to purchase all manners of circuit board > "stuff" w/really good prices, too: > http://www.web-tronics.com/printed-circuit-board-supplies.html That's encouraging. Completely home-made PCBs seem to be a relativley rare occurrence in the US, at least compared to here. Over here, almost every secondary school, college, and university makes PCBs and there are still magazines publishing designs which enthusiasts photocopy onto film (OHP acetates, aka viewgraph foils for you colonials) and then apply to photoresist copperclad board. In the USA, as far as I can see, most people tend to pass the artwork or plotfiles to professional PCB houses to be made up. Lots of people do that here too (I'd probably not try to etch my own board for a really densely packed device using PGAs, for example) but there's still a strong tradition of using your own ferric chloride (not in the wife's best stainless steel sink, though). While there's nothing at all wrong with either method, I'd caution anyone trying it, that layout software (or dry transfers) tends to be suited to one or the other but not both. For the professional house, you are more likely to want nice round pads and not too many different sizes. You can use thin tracks, and pads with fairly small margins of copper round the holes. However, for truly homemade, handetched boards, there's usually more variation in the quality of the image transferred to the board, so very fine tracks are not such a good idea. Moreover, they won't normally have plated-through holes, so it's wise to use larger pads which won't come unstuck too easily -- often oval pads for ICs, which have a relatively large copper area yet are still narrow enough to leave a gap to get tracks between the pins. Lots of PCB layput software isn't capable of doing anything other than simple round (or square or symmetric octagonal) pads and is therefore much less useful for home-etched PCBs. No offence intended Roger, but I think your IC pads on the CoCo board are smaller than I'd personally be happy with for a home-etched and -drilled board without plated holes. (See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/tmp/coco_pcb.jpg for a modified fragment) BTW, did you notice the tracks going through the pins on pins 13 and 14 of the leftmost LS244? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jpero at sympatico.ca Sat Sep 22 15:44:51 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010922184503.02240f00@pc> References: <15277.3180.468213.229167@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20010923003713.JSZH19401.tomts15-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > > I'd just dd(1) them from to a file, gzip them, and save the disk > >images. > > When I archived my collection of PC 5 1/4s a while back, > I choose to use .zip archives. Unless the disks have a > boot sector or are non-FAT, do you really need a disk image? > > On the other hand, I can't help but think some crafty hacker > must've created a device driver for a PC that'll mount a > floppy image as if it were an actual floppy. > > - John Images is best way to transport across many non-compatiable machines especially w/ bootable disks and certain disks that requires exact layout. Rawrite and rawread is excellent for the DOS to archive Mac and bootable disks for most OSes that relies on standard disks for compatablity. Also dd is other way to create same images. Other imagers that are found on the 'net are not standard and not compatiable w/ dd and rawrite stuff. This is how I did this to create bootable Mac OS disk and also again when someone sent me a image of a aps installer via email attachment. Cheers, Wizard From pricomu at compuserve.de Sat Sep 22 19:45:45 2001 From: pricomu at compuserve.de (PRICOMU) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <002901c143c9$1ef450e0$e9396781@computer> Hi Gordon, I got a tiny program (jus one 32 KB file) from 1991 written by Christian Schaaf. One should use it in DOS but normally it also works fine in a DOS-box from Windows. Unfortunately it?s in German language but I think it?s quite easy to work with it. Otherwise I would try to translate it for you. It copies a floppy into one file onto a hard disk saving the disk?s volume label as well which may be important. You can also save a short description in the file saved on the hard disk e.g. containing a serial number. As the program is more than 10 years old I think we don?t have to worry about the copyright too much. I?ve been searching for a hint how to contact the author but can?t find anything. A company?s name is not mentioned. If you are interested in the program, please let me know. Bye Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 11:51 PM Subject: Archiving floppies? > > Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for > archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk > images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so > that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm > assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although > DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. > > Thanks in advance. > > GZ > From pricomu at compuserve.de Sat Sep 22 20:16:19 2001 From: pricomu at compuserve.de (PRICOMU) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <006501c143cd$6699d9c0$e9396781@computer> Hi Gordon, I got a tiny program (just one 32 KB file) from 1991 written by Christian Schaaf. One should use it in DOS but normally it also works fine in a DOS-box from Windows. Unfortunately it?s in German language but I think it?s quite easy to work with it. Otherwise I would try to translate it for you. It copies a floppy into one file onto a hard disk saving the disk?s volume label as well which may be important. You can also save a short description in the file saved on the hard disk e.g. containing a serial number. As the program is more than 10 years old I think we don?t have to worry about the copyright too much. I?ve been searching for a hint how to contact the author but can?t find anything. A company?s name is not mentioned. If you are interested in the program, please let me know. Bye Thomas ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Zaft" To: Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 11:51 PM Subject: Archiving floppies? > > Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for > archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk > images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so > that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm > assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although > DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. > > Thanks in advance. > > GZ > From mrbill at mrbill.net Sat Sep 22 20:26:06 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Mainframe stuff... In-Reply-To: References: <20010921121138.Z14220@mrbill.net> Message-ID: <20010922202606.W12025@mrbill.net> On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 02:57:28PM -0400, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > If there was a chassis, and you were closer to me, I would have taken that > system. It sucks that you are almost 2,000 miles from me. I've still got *six* power supplies for it, if anybody close to me needs one. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From close at 2wongs.com Sat Sep 22 19:00:45 2001 From: close at 2wongs.com (close@2wongs.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Excess Merchandise Message-ID: <200109230152.UAA26385@opal.tseinc.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010922/b1fea9d0/attachment.html From jss at subatomix.com Sun Sep 23 00:05:00 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010922144945.01e3b4c8@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <20010922235652.R85522-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 22 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for > archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make > disk images ... FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. Use a BSD or Linux. The command is: dd if=floppy-device of=file-name To write a floppy from a disk image, use: dd if=file-name of=floppy-device On FreeBSD, the floppy device is /dev/fd0c. The other BSDs and Linux should have very similar names. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 23 00:19:59 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Two classic sightings Message-ID: <200109230519.WAA08026@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Spotted a TRS-80 CoCo of some kind in the rehab centre at Loma Linda University. It apparently was (is?) used for EMG testing to check peripheral nerve impulses. Also, from the MCA reissue of Steely Dan's "Gaucho", in the liner notes: "That's when the business with the computer started. Roger Nichols had this toy -- we thought of it as a toy -- but one day he came to work and told us that the toy had become a man ... who, in the absence of a useable track after a zillion tries with 'real bands' could nicely simulate the most elusive elements of the basic track that we would need to bring our little song into the world, i.e., drums and maybe a simple keyboard part of some sort, and that's all. Because, once we had that -- the toy, the man, the track-- we could do all the rest with little or no problemo, thank you very much. Unfortunately, at this primitive stage of the evolution of the computer and its requisite software, even the most minute event had to be programmed in the gnarly and unforgiving 8085 assembly language, in which all relevant parameters had to be described in its baffling hexagesimal [sic -- guess they were too stoned to count properly ;-)] base system, which ultimately became the only language Roger Nichols spoke or understood, at least for a time ... And so was born the era of sampled drums and sequenced music -- 'the birth of the cruel' as we now call it. History, read it and weep." (Don Fagen [lead vocals] and Walter Becker) -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Work harder! Millions on welfare depend on you! ---------------------------- From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 23 00:22:41 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Mild OT: fixing an eMate Message-ID: <200109230522.WAA07824@stockholm.ptloma.edu> I'm looking for parts to repair a dead? eMate 300. The screen is basically cracked in half! Fortunately, the rest of the unit is intact. For those who don't know what one is, this is basically a Newton-based laptop and a very nice little machine. I'm scoping around for parts but was wondering if someone had a dead one with an intact LCD they might be willing to part with. Ironically, it was damaged in a classroom demonstration of how difficult to break it was. The professor nailed it the first time. :-/ -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- In memory of Howard Caine -------------------------------------------------- From gessler at ucla.edu Sun Sep 23 01:35:44 2001 From: gessler at ucla.edu (Nick Gessler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Bringing Tektronix 4051s back to life Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010922232737.023fd0d0@pop.ucla.edu> All you Tekkies out there... I just pulled my old Tektronix 4051 out of the garage (no I don't want to sell it), plugged it in, turned it on and ... and ... and ... Well all the lights lit, the memory CRT bloomed, and that was that. Screen wouldn't clear and the machine wouldn't respond to any keystrokes. It's frozen... Well it worked fine when I put it in storage and I was wondering if anyone had any experience getting these to work after years without juice? I seem to recall that the machine goes through a self-test on power up: the "busy" and "i/o" lights light and after a few seconds they go out and a square cursor appears on the screen. Does anyone remember what the self-test looks for? I'm thinking it may try to trigger the tape to rewind and wait for the results. I don't know why any electronic part would fail after years of storage but would seem likely that a tape drive motor might seize up and stop the machine from completing its test. It would be an easy matter to free up a motor and a more difficult matter to diagnose a parts failure. Any ideas before I take the thing apart? Thanks in advance... Nick Nicholas Gessler gessler@ucla.edu Box 706, 22148 Monte Vista Drive Topanga, CA 90290-0706 310.455.1630 (home office) 310.825.4728 (UCLA office) 310.825.7428 (UCLA fax) Special Projects, UCLA Center for Digital Humanities Founding Co-Director, UCLA Center for Social Complexity (a.k.a. Center for Computational Social Science) Founding Co-Director, UCLA Social Interfaces & Networks / Advanced Programmable Simulations & Environments (SINAPSE) Instructor, Geography, Computational Geography Track: Simulations, Cartography, Artificial Culture In preparation - "Artificial Culture - Experiments in Synthetic Anthropology." Web Portal: http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~gessler From kees.stravers at iae.nl Sun Sep 23 05:31:30 2001 From: kees.stravers at iae.nl (kees.stravers@iae.nl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? Message-ID: <20010923103130.C78A220F1A@mail.iae.nl> On 2001-09-22 classiccmp@classiccmp.org said to kees.stravers@iae.nl >Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) >for archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able >to make disk images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS >floppies I have so that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall >off I can remake 'em. The DISKCOPY command from DRDOS 6 and 7 can do this, e.g. DISKCOPY A: C:\FLOPPY.IMG and the other way around works too of course. The DRDOS DISKCOPY command exe file also works under msdos. Kees -- kees.stravers@iae.nl http://home.iae.nl/users/pb0aia/ http://www.vaxarchive.org Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered From salo at Xtrmntr.org Sun Sep 23 07:10:45 2001 From: salo at Xtrmntr.org (salo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: changing Aviion monitor refresh setting In-Reply-To: References: <20010921192759.A23924@Xtrmntr.org> Message-ID: <20010923141045.A7534@Xtrmntr.org> On Fri, Sep 21, 2001 at 02:55:11PM -0400, r. 'bear' stricklin wrote: > Yes, it has a Mostek 48T02. I would make a dump of the NVRAM ASAP. I > didn't get the chance to do this to mine, because mine failed to start at > all, displaying simply "NVBATLOW" on the serial console, and nothing else > afterward. yes, this looks familiar to me :), another AV 4300 i have here: ~> tip cuaa connected NVBATLOW --- my AV 530 status: i took PROM away from mainboard, placed it back there and now everything is working fine. i did one little test and i figured out that it was placed there wrong side(!). changes are saved after reboot, i do not need to set up graphics card frequency anymore. i got disk with DG/UX from another machine (i think it was from AV 4100) and i managed it to work booting install kernel in single-user mode and recompiling generic one: b sd(ncsc(),0)root:/dgux.installer -s # sysadm...etc. # uname -a dgux radiator 5.4R3.00 (RADIATOR) generic AViiON mc88100 so now i have working system and waiting for installation media and tons of documentation (i have to pick up them from former reseller of DG). now i just need to find some AT keyboard somewhere ;), but that will not be so big deal.. > I will post a procedure for saving NVRAM contents to this list this > evening. With luck there will be a few things still left in there, which > could mean the difference between heartache and happiness when you replace > the NVRAM. > > I can also give enough information on replacing the NVRAM to get things > mostly running again, though as I mentioned I am still finding problems > with missing or uninitialized data in my NVRAM. i am still interested in these things so just go on.. :) regards, -- -- salo ASCII Ribbon campaign against /"\ -- -- e-mail in gratuitous HTML and \ / -- -- Microsoft proprietary formats X -- -- http://Xtrmntr.org/salo.pgp / \ -- From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sun Sep 23 10:26:48 2001 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Report from CARA Hamfest Message-ID: Went to the Columbia (Maryland) ARA hamfest this morning. By far, the most successful, in vintage computer terms, hamfest I've ever been to. Arrived at 6am. Dark... Walked around through the little bit of fog, squinting at the tailgating stuff already out. Silly me, forgot to bring a flashlight. Talked to some people and got a line, maybe two, on an ASR 33. As the sky gradually brightened, made my first score, a box of S-100 cards and motherboards. The guy wanted $20. I was so amazed to find anything that interesting that I forgot to haggle and handed him a twenty. Next I found a large pile of 50 pin twisted pair rainbow wire (perfect for 8 inch floppy cables) for $1. It quickly got lighter and the fog burned off. Now I could see the following of classiccmp interest (all of which I passed on): A pile of 20 or so Commodore 64s with a sign "2 for $5" A large collection of SGI boxes, Indigos, etc. A large collection of Sun boxes and monitors. A number of Atari boxes of various makes. A table with 10 or so old Mac boxes and a Next slab. A couple of CoCos. A lot of tailgaters were still setting up, but it was 8:30 and I had to leave. On my way out, a flash of "S-100 blue" caught my eye. In an unattended box labeled "project enclosures, $5 for the box, slip money in drivers side window" was a really nice, clean NorthStar 5 1/4" disk enclosure with power supply, but no drive. I didn't need all the other Radio Shack style project boxes that were also in the box, so I just took the N* box and put $2 in the window. I hope some other CC'ers made it to this one, I'll definitely be back next year. From allain at panix.com Sun Sep 23 11:21:13 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Two classic sightings References: <200109230519.WAA08026@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <001701c1444b$c41c27a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Cameron Kaiser, Don Fagen, and Walter Becker said: > sampled drums and sequenced music -- 'the birth of the cruel' I'd be very interested to know what they meant by That. John A. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 23 12:13:48 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 Message-ID: Just for those who aren't aware of the proper uses and display of the US flag in this moment of everyone just having to display it lately, here's a well done resource for reference. This is a guideline made from US Public Law 93-344 and done in a layman's format so it's easy to grasp and use. It might even be a good idea for local newspapers to print a variation of this once to inform people that don't know that they may be "doing it wrong" http://www.state.wi.us/agencies/dva/museum/flaguse.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/1918ee04/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 23 12:37:10 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 (Russ Blakeman) References: Message-ID: <15278.7622.478444.665512@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 23, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Just for those who aren't aware of the proper uses and display of the US > flag in this moment of everyone just having to display it lately, here's a > well done resource for reference. This is a guideline made from US Public > Law 93-344 and done in a layman's format so it's easy to grasp and use. It > might even be a good idea for local newspapers to print a variation of this > once to inform people that don't know that they may be "doing it wrong" > > http://www.state.wi.us/agencies/dva/museum/flaguse.html For those who think our government isn't overstaffed and overflowing with people who have too much free time on their hands...this should erase all doubt once and for all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 23 13:41:29 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: <15278.7622.478444.665512@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: If you live in Wisconsin - it was done by them. I'd rather they did this than to be out golfing on tax dollars though. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Dave McGuire -> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 12:37 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 -> -> -> On September 23, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > Just for those who aren't aware of the proper uses and display -> of the US -> > flag in this moment of everyone just having to display it -> lately, here's a -> > well done resource for reference. This is a guideline made -> from US Public -> > Law 93-344 and done in a layman's format so it's easy to grasp -> and use. It -> > might even be a good idea for local newspapers to print a -> variation of this -> > once to inform people that don't know that they may be "doing -> it wrong" -> > -> > http://www.state.wi.us/agencies/dva/museum/flaguse.html -> -> For those who think our government isn't overstaffed and overflowing -> with people who have too much free time on their hands...this should -> erase all doubt once and for all. -> -> -Dave -> -> -- -> Dave McGuire -> Laurel, MD -> From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 23 13:53:04 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAE2F90.6B2C8545@tiac.net> Chris Kennedy wrote: > Bob Shannon wrote: > > [stuff deleted] > > > Because there already is microcode running, or your Pentium cannot run > your assembly > > level program. Whats unclear here? > > I'm reading this as suggesting that if any of the logic used to deliver a > set > of abstractions is soft then the next higher level of abstraction (which is > _usually_ the ISA of the processor) cannot be considered microcode. That > might be a useful metric, but, as you acknowledge, nanocode exists, so the > utility > of this metric as a definition of microcode vs. something else is at least > suspect. Not at all. I'm not even attempting to define 'microcode' specifically. The application in question was an emaulation of a PDP-11 running on a Pentium processor, in Pentium assembly level code. This is unquestionably emulation, and is a full layer of abstraction away from the Pentium's physical microcode. To describe this application as 'microcode' is indefensibly wrong. > Well, here's _one_ textbook definition of microcode: > > "...programming that is ordinarily not program-addressable, but, unlike > hardwired > logic, is capable of being modified..." > > which says nothing about other levels of microcode, nor about the complexity > of the abstraction on which the microprogram executes. Not a bad definition. Now apply this to the concept of emulating a PDP-11 on a Pentium please. > It's notable that IBM uses the "well-defined" term "microcode" to describe > what > most of us would consider "firmware". The definition of microcode can > certainly > be fuzzy, and Tony has already postulated an implementation using processors > rather than discrete logic or bitslices that would meet the definition > above. I disagree with your interpretation of IBM's definition. Firmware is clearly program-addressable! > I'm fairly certain most of us have written both, and this thread is > prompting some of > us to ask just _what_ the real difference is between the two. Thus far I've > seen > two arguments advanced as to why what is being described is an "emulator" > rather > than "microcode", and they seem to revolve around two arguments: > > - It can't be called microcode if there's microcode beneath the abstraction > at > which you're coding. Obviously this one can be dismissed by using a > non-microcoded > processor as the functional unit. > > - There is some level of hardware abstraction above which it can't be > considered > microcode. I'm not sure how this gets translated into a quantitative > metric. > It's can't run on anything more complex than a sequencer? By that > definition > the code on the K6 isn't microcode, it's an emulator. Execution of an > "instruction" takes more than one memory cycle? Given speculative > fetching > of blocks of memory on contemporary processors it's possible for an > "instruction" to execute with zero memory references. It's just "too > complex"? By that definition the B1700/1800 didn't have an assembly > language. First off, I strongly doubt that the majority of list members have ever written true microcode. Its just not commonly done. Secondly the use of a non-microprogrammed machine has nothing to do with the definition of emulation, nor microcode. Lastly, I'm not familiar with the K6 microarchitecture, so I cannot comment on its operation. But lets remind ourselves of the actual issue here. Running an assembly-level program on a Pentium which emulates the instruction set of a PDP-11. This was described as microcode. Its clearly an assembly-language emulation. Once again, whats unclear here? > > All I can say is that your useage of the terms is totally incorrect as > they are used by > > people who write both assembly-level and microprograms. > > Well, I've done both, and at this point I can hardly agree that Tony's usage > is > "totally incorrect". Really? An assembly level program, running on an already microcoded processor is still microcode? Do you put this sort of experiance on your resume? > > There is a full order of magnitude of difference in the degree of hardware > > abstraction between these two very different forms of programming. > > Which takes me back to the K6. A die with dual RISC processors running code > which fetches, cracks and "executes" X86 instructions. By the definition > being > advanced by Tony this is clearly microcode; by your definition it's not -- > it's > an emulator -- yet any CPU designer that I know (including myself) would > certainly consider it to be microcode. Um, emulators can be written in microcode. Perhaps this is how the K6 works? > Who has an emotional attachment? I've been writing both microprograms and > assemhly > crap for more than a quarter century and _I_ can't see a clear distinction, > and > your definition is clearly at odds with that used by IBM -- which at the > very least > suggests that the term is not as well-defined as you'd like to believe. But firmware IS program-addressable, now isn't it? I don't agree that my concept of 'microcode' is at odds with IBM's. From fernande at internet1.net Sun Sep 23 14:17:51 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 References: <15278.7622.478444.665512@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BAE355E.67BAEFAD@internet1.net> Why? You think we shouldn't have guidelines for the flag? It's not like the flag police are going to come and inspect your flag. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > > http://www.state.wi.us/agencies/dva/museum/flaguse.html > > For those who think our government isn't overstaffed and overflowing > with people who have too much free time on their hands...this should > erase all doubt once and for all. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 23 14:31:21 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAE3889.175653AF@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > I understand your confusion here, but in this case there already is something > > I'm not confused. I know what the terms conventionally mean. I would not > normally descibe a program running on a microprocessor as 'microcode' > (for all some books do make that mistake, and DEC even once called > anything running microcode a 'microprocessor' (like the microcoded comms > processors they used on things like the DMC and DMR cards) for all they > were not single-chip processors (which, IMHO is the conventional > definition of microprocessor). > > I, however, don't see it as necessarily wrong to look at a system at a > different level... Ok, so normally code running on a microprocessor is 'not normally' described as microcode. Lets start from here.... > OK, now replace that Pentium chip with an ARM (which contains no internal > microcode). Is the emulation firmware in ROM now ARM machine code, or > microcode, or both (I would claim it could be considered to be both). Ok, so now we have code running on an ARM microprocessor, a non-microcoded architecture. So now why would it be correct to call the program running on a non-microcoded microprocessor, "microcode"? Clearly on a non-microprogrammed machine, there is no microcode. So does choosing a different name suddenly turn the ARM inso a microcoded architecture? Very clearly it does not. So simply choosing to use terms to describe totaly different levels of hardware abstraction is not such a good idea. > Let's suppose I make a PDP11-compatible CPU by using a Pentium (or an > ARM), that firmware emulation machine/micro code and the memory interface > as I've described. To the _user_, that's a processor that runs PDP11 > machine code programs. I could boot RT11 or RSX on it. Inside there's a > program that controls the operation of that PDP11-compatible processor. I > think it's justified to call that microcode under some circumstances, and > Pentium/ARM machine code under others. This is called emulation, not microcode. Otherwise your application gets to define a processor as microcoded or not. I think the problem here is that your describing an assembly level program which performs a similar function to the actual microcode in say, a PDP 11/45. But performing the same function on a different machine already has a term, its emulation. Emulation is simply not microcode, and its not correct to describe it as such. Try bending terminology like this on your resume some time, and see how the industry reacts. > > The code in the ROM is still made of instructions which are interpreted by existing > > microcode. The difference is very very clear at the hardware level. > > Not to me it's not. In fact I'm looking for an unabiguous distinction > between microcode and a finite state machine. I know what both of them > are (having designed both on many occasions) and as far as I can see > there is little electronic differece between them. Back up for a moment, and look at the application your suggesting here. An assembly level program, running on a microcoded machine, emulatating another processor. So now you replace the microcoded processor with a non-microcoded one, and still claim there is microcode present? > Suppose you have a circuit. It consists of an N-bit latch, outputs to > some combinatorial logic circuit (which we can, of course, make from a > ROM). The combinatorial circuit has other inputs from the rest of the > system. Outputs of the combinatorial circuit go to to other parts of the > system (to control it) and also back to the inputs of the N-bit latch. > > Now, that, of course, is a classic finite state machine. But hang on a > second. Suppose the 'other' inputs to the combinatorial circuit come from > the machine code instruction latch in a processor. The outputs control > the ALU, data path muxes, and so on. Then it certainly looks like > microcode to me. Not at all! Processors that use this design method are quite common. Usually there are state and cycle counters. Combinatorial logic is used to decode the instruction register, state and cycle counters to drive the control signals for the CPU logic. This is NOT microcode. This is a non-microprogrammed machine. An example of this is the good old 8080. Contrast this to the design of the Pentium or other microprogrammed design. The presence of a control store eliminates all that combinatorial logic. I reccomend you get a copy of Mick and Brick, Bit Slice Microprocessor Design. An excellent book, it even has plans for a PDP-11 emulation with 2901's. > Let me start with a somewhat silly example. > > I need to make a circuit that outputs an incrementing 8 bit binary > number. I decide to do it in a somewhat odd way (for no good reason other > than I'm eccentric). > > I decide to use a Z80 processor. And to write a little program to output > an incrementing count to an output port. I map an 8 bit latch at that > output port address, and use that as my 8 bit output. > > (Apologies for any bugs in that, but you should get the idea). > > OK, so far so good. It is clear that the contents of that ROM are > firmware/software (in this case Z80 machine code). > > But as a hardware designer, I can regard that ROM as a programmable > combinatorial circuit (in fact it's really a fixed AND matrix followed by > a programmable OR matrix). So I can write a logic equation for each > output bit of the ROM, in terms of the address inputs. Understood. But look at the complexity of altering the actual combinatorial logic and the firmware. Clearly the firmware is much more practical to alter, and this is why microprocessors are so popular. But this, as you say, it still Z80 machine code. Inside that Z80 there are huge areas of combinatorial logic that decode the instruction register, cycle and state counters to drive the control signals for the CPU logic. (the Z80 is not microcoded either) If you replaced all that combinatorial logic with a ROM, the contents of that ROM (no the physical ROM itself) would become microcode. So its not the gates, its the logical expressions they encode, and its a full layer of complexity below Z80 machine code. > I now take some TTL gate chips and wire up circuits to implement them. > And replace the ROM with those circuits (as I said, I'm eccentric). > > The system still works as it did before. The Z80 sees the same > instructions.... > > However, it's not at all clear to me that the gates wired up like that > should automatically be called 'firmware' even though they replaced a ROM > contianing firmware. And if they should, is there a clear test to > determine when a mass of gates is to be called 'firmware'? See above. > > like the AM2910 microprogram sequencer. > > > > So the presence of state machines (you can't run microcode without them!) is not > > an issue here. > > Actually, I am sure it's possible to make the control system of a > processor where the only state machine is the combination of the > microcode address latch and the microcode PROMs. There need not be other > state machines 'below' the microcode. Correct. And the contents of the PROMs is the microcode, not the PROMs themselves, as described above. > OK, getting back to the original PDP11 emulator, why can't we call > Intel's microcode in the Pentium 'nanocode', the emulator firmware > 'microcode' and the user's PDP11 program 'machine code'? Because its basically the same thing that other manufactuers call microcode, and being its Intel's processor, they get to make these choices. You can choose to redefine all the terms you like, but that does not make your usage correct, or more correct than the acutal manufactuers terms. > > Basically, if a machine is already microcoded, the term is already taken. > > Ah, so if somebody has already claimed something to be microcode, then > that's what it is, and we can't consider it as something else. Odd.... Not odd at all, the manufactuer is using terminology in a standard way so that it is clearly understood by the industry. > > But I still cannot call this binary program 'microcode' on the 2114 simply because the > > 2114 is not microprogrammed. > > True enough (otherwise, as I said a couple of messages back we'd have the > absurd situation that the same program would be microcode on a P850 [1] > and machine code on a P851 [2]) Ok, so then running a PDP-11 emulation on an ARM would be... A, Emulation. B, Emulation. C, Emulation, or D, Microcode, because I feel like calling it that. > Sure.... But I am now looking for an unambiguous test (note : Not 'this > is what it's normally called') to distinguish between the microcode in a > microcoded processor (which interprets user machine code instuctions and > controls the data path, etc in the processor) and what would normally be > called 'an emulator' running on a RISC processor (with no internal > microcode) that interprets the intruction set of another processor (here > the PDP11) and also 'runs directly on the hardware'. > > -tony Its all about how its implemented. If the machine level instruction set of a processor is implemented with fixed, combinatorial logic as opposed to a stored 'microprogram', its not a microprogrammed design. If you then use the machine code for that machine to emulate another processor, you are writing an emulator. The machine code may, or may not be microprogrammed, it makes no difference in this case. If you alter or create the microprogram of a microcoded processor to emulate another processor, you are writing microcode, and an emulator at once, your actually writing the emulator in microcode. But this is not what was proposed at all. What was proposed was writing an emulator in machine code, on an already microprogrammed processor, and calling the result 'microcode'. This appears to be totally unambiguous, unless I missed something. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 23 14:34:41 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAE3951.3C4EE005@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > > Emulators are simply mimics of other machines, however they are implemented. > > Ah, so if the instruction set has been implemented before somewhere, then > it's an emulator, is that your definition? So a PERQ running microcode to > execute PDP11 instructions is a PDP11 emulator? > > While true, I think I could also justify describing that microcode as > implementing the PDP11 instruction set on the PERQ. > > -tony Agreed. Emulation is one way to implement an instuction set. Emulating a PDP-11 on a PERQ in microcode is microcode, and emulation. Emulating a PDP-11 on a PERQ in the PERQ machine code is only emulation. From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 23 14:37:09 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs References: Message-ID: <3BAE39E5.D9EDB25A@tiac.net> Tony Duell wrote: > True, the code is most definitely Pentium machine code. But IMHO it can > also be considered to be the _microcode_ for the emulated PDP11 CPU. > Which happens to use a Pentium as its microengine. As I've said several > times, this is a very unconventional way to consider it, but I still > don't think it's wrong. Ok Tony, Its unconventional, I agree. All I was saying is that your not using the term microcode in the 'correct' way, which is to say using the conventional meaning of the term. So incorrect is not wrong then. I give up. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 23 14:29:13 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: Re: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 (Chad Fernandez) References: <15278.7622.478444.665512@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BAE355E.67BAEFAD@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15278.14345.750167.154397@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 23, Chad Fernandez wrote: > Why? You think we shouldn't have guidelines for the flag? It's not > like the flag police are going to come and inspect your flag. That's not the problem. The problem is the fact that we PAID some idiot suit to come up with this crock. I've always maintained that people like this (with too much free time and the need to look like they're "doing something") need some REAL problems to deal with. Now that they've GOT some real problems, the idiots who can't figure out what to do are just going to make even bigger asses of themselves. -Dave PS - No, I'm actually in a great mood today. -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Sep 23 09:13:59 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Bringing Tektronix 4051s back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010922232737.023fd0d0@pop.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010923101359.007aa400@mailhost.intellistar.net> Nick, My 4051 works so I haven't had any chance to work on it but I do have the service manuals if you want to borrow them. I just need to figure out whar kind of hostage I need for the loan of them! Joe At 11:35 PM 9/22/01 -0700, you wrote: >All you Tekkies out there... > >I just pulled my old Tektronix 4051 out of the garage (no I don't want to >sell it), plugged it in, turned it on and ... and ... and ... >Well all the lights lit, the memory CRT bloomed, and that was that. >Screen wouldn't clear and the machine wouldn't respond to any keystrokes. >It's frozen... > >Well it worked fine when I put it in storage and I was wondering if anyone >had any experience getting these to work after years without juice? >I seem to recall that the machine goes through a self-test on power >up: the "busy" and "i/o" lights light and after a few seconds they go out >and a square cursor appears on the screen. Does anyone remember what the >self-test looks for? I'm thinking it may try to trigger the tape to rewind >and wait for the results. I don't know why any electronic part would fail >after years of storage but would seem likely that a tape drive motor might >seize up and stop the machine from completing its test. > >It would be an easy matter to free up a motor and a more difficult matter >to diagnose a parts failure. Any ideas before I take the thing apart? > >Thanks in advance... > >Nick > >Nicholas Gessler >gessler@ucla.edu > >Box 706, 22148 Monte Vista Drive >Topanga, CA 90290-0706 > >310.455.1630 (home office) >310.825.4728 (UCLA office) >310.825.7428 (UCLA fax) > >Special Projects, UCLA Center for Digital Humanities >Founding Co-Director, UCLA Center for Social Complexity (a.k.a. Center for >Computational Social Science) >Founding Co-Director, UCLA Social Interfaces & Networks / Advanced >Programmable Simulations & Environments (SINAPSE) >Instructor, Geography, Computational Geography Track: Simulations, >Cartography, Artificial Culture >In preparation - "Artificial Culture - Experiments in Synthetic Anthropology." > >Web Portal: >http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~gessler > > From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Sun Sep 23 15:35:21 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Central Point Option Board vs Deluxe Option Board Message-ID: Hi, A couple of people requested the Option Board Software. I created image files of the original floppies and uploaded them to http://www.btinternet.com/~mark_k/Option_Board_v5.4_3.5.bin.gz http://www.btinternet.com/~mark_k/Option_Board_v5.4_5.25.bin.gz After downloading decompress using gzip, then use your favourite disk-image- writing program to write to a (formatted) floppy disk. -- Mark From bshannon at tiac.net Sun Sep 23 14:45:27 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. References: Message-ID: <3BAE3BD6.36ED41B1@tiac.net> Ok, I'd thought I'd given up, but I can't resist this one... Tony Duell wrote: > > Well, here's _one_ textbook definition of microcode: > > > > "...programming that is ordinarily not program-addressable, but, unlike > > hardwired > > logic, is capable of being modified..." > > By that definition, a PERQ is not microprogrammed. PERQ microcode can > modify itself (in fact the only way of writing to the control store in a > PERQ is by 3 special microinstructions). So the control store is > (micro)program addressible.... Tony, it said '...ordinarily not program-addressable', so there are exceptions. > Thing is, we all know the conventional usage of the terms 'microcode', > 'machine code', 'emulator' and so on. And I think we all agree that _one_ > way to describe the Pentium (or ARM) + firmware + memory interface is as > a Pentium (or ARM) running a machine code program that is a PDP11 > emulator. > > That does not mean that's the _only_ way to describe that system. There is a good reason why technical terminology has conventional meanings and usages. What advantage is there it screwing this up and sowing confusion? > If we are going to have the claim that it's 'totally incorrect' to call > the emulator 'microcode' then we need to have absolutely unambiguous > definitions of terms like 'microcode', 'hardware', 'state machine' and so > on. And while I know what all those terms mean, and can give definitions > and examples, I am not sure I can give definitons that don't have some > ambiguities in them somewhere. In fact I am not sure such definitions > even exist. > > -tony Great, lets embrace the ambiguities, and amplifiy them until no one understands classic computer technology! From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 23 14:57:49 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAE2F90.6B2C8545@tiac.net> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010923123022.023b9eb0@209.185.79.193> >To describe this application as 'microcode' is indefensibly wrong. Bob et al. Any blanket statement like this is generally false and this one is not excluded. (For you language weenies, parse that one :-)) One would be more clear if they wrote: "If you describe this application as 'microcode' then I won't understand what you are talking about." That of course is provably correct :-) Computer geeks have been abusing the English language since the the moment they co-opted the term "computer." If you want to get particularly anal there are only two types of implementation, those that use state machines and those that use combinatorial logic. The Feynman lectures on Computation are an excellent discussion of this. On this mailing list, we're interested in _communication_ more than a particular set of definitions thus if someone says "Microcode a PDP-11 on a Pentium" and someone finds the statement confusing because their definition of the word micro-code doesn't allow for considering assembly code microcode, and yet at the same time they recognize what the author was trying to say, then lets just leave it at that. Now if the reader doesn't understand what the author is trying to say then asking the question regarding the definition of microcode that the author is using is both a valid question and helpful. A lot of great stuff has come out of this conversation so far, this includes various microcode design references, further illumination on the architecture of the PERQ and other machines. Lately however this thread is showing dangerous signs of becoming chaff. Sorry for intruding, --Chuck From jss at subatomix.com Sun Sep 23 16:19:52 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010923123022.023b9eb0@209.185.79.193> Message-ID: <20010923161607.S87142-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Chuck McManis wrote: > Any blanket statement like this is generally false I've seen this statement paraphrased in sig blocks before, but in those cases it was an attempt at ironic humor... :-D -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Sep 23 16:23:39 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20010923123022.023b9eb0@209.185.79.193> References: <3BAE2F90.6B2C8545@tiac.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010923141437.00be45d0@postoffice.pacbell.net> I must admit I haven't been reading this whole thread -- but it seems that the crux of it is the definition of whether an instruction set is defined as microcode or not. I'm sure there is no 100% perfect answer, that no matter what definition you come up with there will be machines that fall in the grey zone. However, the razor I'd use to divide microcode instruction sets from non-microcode is that microcode instructions have few to no interlocks. Architectural instructions are more abstract that define their behavior in an ideal way pretty much independently of what came before or after (well, excepting things that change state to the architectural model). Microcode instructions tend to be arcane and very implementation specific, while architectural instructions allow latitude in implementation. [ yes, the original MIPS architecture wasn't fully interlocked, but by and large it was and the few things that weren't were fixed soon enough ] Thus, I'd say a 386 running a code for another machine is an emulation. Sorry if this point was raised earlier and I missed it. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 15:47:42 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: Bringing Tektronix 4051s back to life In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010922232737.023fd0d0@pop.ucla.edu> from "Nick Gessler" at Sep 22, 1 11:35:44 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2172 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/9f7ba1e2/attachment.ksh From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 23 17:00:36 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: updated panels page Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010923145859.0200e5b0@209.185.79.193> I've updated the panels page at the House of VAX (about 1/3 down the page is the link to the panels) to include the VAX 4000/300,400,500,... panel. So if you're wondering what the things do on this panel here is a handy reference. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 16:41:54 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:45 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAE2F90.6B2C8545@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 23, 1 02:53:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3503 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/59bce165/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 17:10:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAE3889.175653AF@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 23, 1 03:31:21 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 9592 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/104c9965/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 17:16:41 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: <3BAE3BD6.36ED41B1@tiac.net> from "Bob Shannon" at Sep 23, 1 03:45:27 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2028 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010923/f2bf0101/attachment.ksh From donm at cts.com Sun Sep 23 18:01:51 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: <15278.14345.750167.154397@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 23, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > Why? You think we shouldn't have guidelines for the flag? It's not > > like the flag police are going to come and inspect your flag. > > That's not the problem. The problem is the fact that we PAID some > idiot suit to come up with this crock. > > I've always maintained that people like this (with too much free time > and the need to look like they're "doing something") need some REAL > problems to deal with. Now that they've GOT some real problems, the > idiots who can't figure out what to do are just going to make even > bigger asses of themselves. > > -Dave ....who certainly broadcasts from the appropriate ISP :) - don > PS - No, I'm actually in a great mood today. > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD > From mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net Sun Sep 23 18:06:42 2001 From: mbbrutman at magnaspeed.net (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: Archiving Floppies References: <200109232210.RAA34215@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BAE6B02.6ECDED7F@magnaspeed.net> For DOS floppies, I make a disk image and store the files to zip. The disk image is in case I missed anything, or if the diskette is bootable. The zip file is for normal file manipulation. With CD-ROM space so cheap, why not do both? The particular archiver I use is dd under linux, or fdimage, loaddskf, or any other archiver that makes a binary image of the diskette. No compression or meta data ... I can tell what type of disk it was by the resulting size, and I can compress with zip or gzip. The raw binary images are mountable under Linux. For copyprotected diskettes I'm using Teledisk, although I don't trust it entirely. Teledisk is also good for damaged diskettes, which the raw binary formats can't handle. (The damage looks like copy protection.) The downside to teledisk is the portability ... I'll need a DOS machine forever to read the data. I don't have this problem with the raw binary images. Has anybody used CopyIIPC and Snatchit? That's supposed to work too. It's an old pirating technique, but it is applicable to archiving copyprotected disks. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Sep 23 18:48:41 2001 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J. Korpela) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: from Russ Blakeman at "Sep 23, 2001 01:41:29 pm" Message-ID: <200109232348.f8NNmff14475@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> > If you live in Wisconsin - it was done by them. I'd rather they did this > than to be out golfing on tax dollars though. I went to a public school in Wisconsin. We were taught how to display the flag in grade school (in the 70s). IMHO, anyone patriotic enough to display the flag should be patriotic enough to take it down at night, to keep it out of the rain, and to wrap it properly when it is disposed of. It's not going to be a symbol that commands respect if US citizens don't treat it with respect. Nobody here younger than 70 seems to be aware that there are any guidelines at all. If the Wisconsin DVA wants to let people know how it's done, that's fine by me. Eric > -> On September 23, Russ Blakeman wrote: > -> > Just for those who aren't aware of the proper uses and display > -> of the US > -> > flag in this moment of everyone just having to display it > -> lately, here's a > -> > well done resource for reference. This is a guideline made > -> from US Public > -> > Law 93-344 and done in a layman's format so it's easy to grasp > -> and use. It > -> > might even be a good idea for local newspapers to print a > -> variation of this > -> > once to inform people that don't know that they may be "doing > -> it wrong" > -> > > -> > http://www.state.wi.us/agencies/dva/museum/flaguse.html > -> > -> For those who think our government isn't overstaffed and overflowing > -> with people who have too much free time on their hands...this should > -> erase all doubt once and for all. > -> > -> -Dave > -> > -> -- > -> Dave McGuire > -> Laurel, MD > -> > From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Sep 23 18:49:43 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: Archiving Floppies In-Reply-To: <3BAE6B02.6ECDED7F@magnaspeed.net> References: <200109232210.RAA34215@opal.tseinc.com> <3BAE6B02.6ECDED7F@magnaspeed.net> Message-ID: >Has anybody used CopyIIPC and Snatchit? That's supposed to work too. >It's an old pirating technique, but it is applicable to archiving >copyprotected disks. I used them in the late 80's and early 90's and they worked well enough. I never had the option board, just the program. It's been quite a while since I even had either program though. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From Diff at Mac.com Sun Sep 23 19:15:04 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 Message-ID: <001701c1448d$f670ce30$6701a8c0@laboffice> Hello, A friend of mine recently offered to get me a Zilog System 8000 system that he says is currently acting as a plant stand. Does anyone have any information on these systems, and if it is not a larger machine (I am interested in workstation and mini class machines), would anyone have an interest in this box? Zach From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 23 19:51:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 In-Reply-To: Zilog 8000 (Zach Malone) References: <001701c1448d$f670ce30$6701a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <15278.33669.757996.602196@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 23, Zach Malone wrote: > A friend of mine recently offered to get me a Zilog System 8000 system > that he says is currently acting as a plant stand. Does anyone have any > information on these systems, and if it is not a larger machine (I am > interested in workstation and mini class machines), would anyone have an > interest in this box? I ran one for years. Whaddya wanna know? If you don't take it, I certainly will. I regret having sold mine about 10-12 years ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 23 19:39:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 In-Reply-To: <001701c1448d$f670ce30$6701a8c0@laboffice> from "Zach Malone" at Sep 23, 1 08:15:04 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1083 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010924/3fdf1251/attachment.ksh From fernande at internet1.net Sun Sep 23 20:53:18 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 References: <15278.7622.478444.665512@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BAE355E.67BAEFAD@internet1.net> <15278.14345.750167.154397@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BAE920E.7ACC7190@internet1.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > That's not the problem. The problem is the fact that we PAID some > idiot suit to come up with this crock. Dave I'm sure the standards have been around for quite some time. A lawyer probably was paid to put everything into legal terms, but the ideas were probably developed by our founding fathers, or maybe later by some of our leaders. > I've always maintained that people like this (with too much free time > and the need to look like they're "doing something") need some REAL > problems to deal with. Someone has to do the job, if there is a job to be done. > Now that they've GOT some real problems, the > idiots who can't figure out what to do are just going to make even > bigger asses of themselves. Who said no one knows what to do? I think they (our leaders) are doing there best to determine how deep things go, and to plan a suitable plan for retaliation. > > -Dave > > PS - No, I'm actually in a great mood today. yeah, I can tell. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA From Diff at Mac.com Sun Sep 23 21:03:01 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 References: <001701c1448d$f670ce30$6701a8c0@laboffice> <15278.33669.757996.602196@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001301c1449d$0acf5a40$6701a8c0@laboffice> > I ran one for years. Whaddya wanna know? > > If you don't take it, I certainly will. I regret having sold mine > about 10-12 years ago. Tony seems to have covered most of the stuff, I try to get the model number off of the person who has it. I guess I will play with it a little, clean it up, and then if you want it, its yours. Thank you Dave & Tony, Zach From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 23 22:23:07 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:46 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: <200109232348.f8NNmff14475@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: I posted it because it was the best done site I saw and the fact that all sorts of dipsticks out my way (and likely everywhere else) has no idea that you aren't supposed to drag it on the ground, light it at night, that there are different sized flags for different uses, etc. I'm 45 and had all sorts of civics in Chicago in the early 60's through my graduation in 1975 from high school and went to carry it all on in my 20 in the AF. I've been part of both the law enforcement team that did the base flag and honro guard at funerals so I've had more exposure than the average person. I thought with all these people that normally couldn't even identify a US flag from a Navajo quilt that it might help these people without pointing them out. Dave's just got a problem with gov't workers is all. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Eric J. Korpela -> Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2001 6:49 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 -> -> -> > If you live in Wisconsin - it was done by them. I'd rather -> they did this -> > than to be out golfing on tax dollars though. -> -> I went to a public school in Wisconsin. We were taught how to display -> the flag in grade school (in the 70s). IMHO, anyone patriotic enough to -> display the flag should be patriotic enough to take it down at night, to -> keep it out of the rain, and to wrap it properly when it is -> disposed of. -> It's not going to be a symbol that commands respect if US citizens don't -> treat it with respect. Nobody here younger than 70 seems to be -> aware that -> there are any guidelines at all. -> -> If the Wisconsin DVA wants to let people know how it's done, that's fine -> by me. -> -> Eric -> -> > -> On September 23, Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > -> > Just for those who aren't aware of the proper uses and display -> > -> of the US -> > -> > flag in this moment of everyone just having to display it -> > -> lately, here's a -> > -> > well done resource for reference. This is a guideline made -> > -> from US Public -> > -> > Law 93-344 and done in a layman's format so it's easy to grasp -> > -> and use. It -> > -> > might even be a good idea for local newspapers to print a -> > -> variation of this -> > -> > once to inform people that don't know that they may be "doing -> > -> it wrong" -> > -> > -> > -> > http://www.state.wi.us/agencies/dva/museum/flaguse.html -> > -> -> > -> For those who think our government isn't overstaffed and -> overflowing -> > -> with people who have too much free time on their hands...this should -> > -> erase all doubt once and for all. -> > -> -> > -> -Dave -> > -> -> > -> -- -> > -> Dave McGuire -> > -> Laurel, MD -> > -> -> > -> -> From fernande at internet1.net Mon Sep 24 01:30:54 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:47 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 References: Message-ID: <3BAED31E.8B80B42B@internet1.net> Russ, I am seeing flags all over the place now. I even saw a guy that had one draped over the hood of his beat up SUV... tucked into the hood sort of, I think. I don't doubt that he has nothing but the best intentions, but I realized right away, that his method of display wasn't correct. I see them taped to car windows, flying off of roll bars on Jeeps and trucks, etc. Do the laws/rules differentiate between a flag, and the likeness of a flag? Many that I see aren't really real flags, they may be extremely cheap versions, or maybe even hand drawn.... are they still considered flags? (I'm not suggesting any of the above displays are wrong, and I don't want to be a legalist on this issue, but I still would like to know more) I did read the page you posted, but I wonder if the actual legal language might go more in depth, and possibly you might know more, from your experience. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Russ Blakeman wrote: > > I posted it because it was the best done site I saw and the fact that all > sorts of dipsticks out my way (and likely everywhere else) has no idea that > you aren't supposed to drag it on the ground, light it at night, that there > are different sized flags for different uses, etc. I'm 45 and had all sorts > of civics in Chicago in the early 60's through my graduation in 1975 from > high school and went to carry it all on in my 20 in the AF. I've been part > of both the law enforcement team that did the base flag and honro guard at > funerals so I've had more exposure than the average person. I thought with > all these people that normally couldn't even identify a US flag from a > Navajo quilt that it might help these people without pointing them out. > Dave's just got a problem with gov't workers is all. From fernande at internet1.net Mon Sep 24 01:37:38 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: OT: Anybody have a rom image of a modern TI graphing calculator? References: <3BAACE2B.188BEA4B@internet1.net> <3BAADEF8.84D36E07@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3BAED4B2.7FAEC4B3@internet1.net> I looked at it. It looks like a lot, just to get thr emulator. They don't even seem to talk about it too much. I downloaded one from ticalc.org, and that is what requires the rom image. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA JimD wrote: > > Go to http://education.ti.com/developer/8992/hilight/hilight.html > You can get a complete C compiler, assembler, debugger and > TI-89/92 calculator emulator from TI. > Jim Davis From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Mon Sep 24 01:49:26 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Archiving Floppies Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066144@exc-reo1> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > For copyprotected diskettes I'm using Teledisk, although I don't > trust it entirely. Teledisk is also good for damaged diskettes, I stopped trusting TD once I found that it would not restore 5-1/4" 360k floppies on my machine - if only I'd found out before archiving 50-odd of them that way. It seemed OK with the 3-1/2" floppies, but I'd stopped trusting it by then! > which the raw binary formats can't handle. (The damage looks like > copy protection.) The downside to teledisk is the portability ... > I'll need a DOS machine forever to read the data. I don't have this > problem with the raw binary images. Exactly. I'd prefer a program that was able to cope with any MS-DOS floppy and had a documented "image" format. I'm still looking, although the DR-DOS DISKCOPY is probably what I will use once I start again. Antonio From alan.pearson at cramer.com Mon Sep 24 04:43:03 2001 From: alan.pearson at cramer.com (Alan Pearson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: CPU design at the gate level Message-ID: Thanks to all who replied with book refs for bitslice processors & CPU design, time for a trip to the city library this lunchtime :) Cheers Al. From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Sep 24 07:00:17 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: <3BAED31E.8B80B42B@internet1.net> Message-ID: I'm sure that anything hand made to represent a flag is considered to be a flag but I think it's just people's ignorance and their desire to be in with the present fad. Hopefully most of these people will go back to their normal hide-in-the-house lifestyles watching hours of WWF and lose the thrill of being like everyone else. I think maybe we ought to drop this thread though as everyone is still reeling from the previous OT about the NYC/DC attack as it is and I'm sure that VAX's and PDP's are more of what we should be on for a while. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Chad Fernandez -> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 1:31 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 -> -> -> Russ, -> -> I am seeing flags all over the place now. I even saw a guy that had one -> draped over the hood of his beat up SUV... tucked into the hood sort of, -> I think. I don't doubt that he has nothing but the best intentions, but -> I realized right away, that his method of display wasn't correct. -> -> I see them taped to car windows, flying off of roll bars on Jeeps and -> trucks, etc. Do the laws/rules differentiate between a flag, and the -> likeness of a flag? Many that I see aren't really real flags, they may -> be extremely cheap versions, or maybe even hand drawn.... are they still -> considered flags? (I'm not suggesting any of the above displays are -> wrong, and I don't want to be a legalist on this issue, but I still -> would like to know more) -> -> I did read the page you posted, but I wonder if the actual legal -> language might go more in depth, and possibly you might know more, from -> your experience. -> -> Chad Fernandez -> Michigan, USA -> -> Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > -> > I posted it because it was the best done site I saw and the -> fact that all -> > sorts of dipsticks out my way (and likely everywhere else) has -> no idea that -> > you aren't supposed to drag it on the ground, light it at -> night, that there -> > are different sized flags for different uses, etc. I'm 45 and -> had all sorts -> > of civics in Chicago in the early 60's through my graduation -> in 1975 from -> > high school and went to carry it all on in my 20 in the AF. -> I've been part -> > of both the law enforcement team that did the base flag and -> honro guard at -> > funerals so I've had more exposure than the average person. I -> thought with -> > all these people that normally couldn't even identify a US flag from a -> > Navajo quilt that it might help these people without pointing them out. -> > Dave's just got a problem with gov't workers is all. -> From tony.eros at machm.org Mon Sep 24 08:00:47 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010924085743.02366250@mail.njd.concentric.com> I'm trying to remember a web site I used to visit that had a number of old computer and instrument service guides for sale. I bought a Heathkit EC-1 assembly manual from them. Now, I can't seem to recall the name of the place -- doesn't look like I saved the address in my browser bookmarks, either. I know it's not abebooks or alibris -- any suggestions? -- Tony From RCini at congressfinancial.com Mon Sep 24 08:19:00 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879E27@MAIL10> Gordon: I use two tools. 2FILE/2FLOPPY, a freeware utility from PC Magazine and written in the early 90's. Alternatively, I use Microsoft's READIMG/WRITIMG programs. The Microsoft programs I don't believe are available publicly -- I got them from one of the early Chicago beta CDs I think. I'm sure that there are other more modern utilities available on shareware.com or download.com. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Zaft [mailto:zaft@azstarnet.com] Sent: Saturday, September 22, 2001 5:52 PM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: Archiving floppies? Does anyone have any recommendations on software (preferably free) for archiving old DOS floppies? What I'd like to do is to be able to make disk images of all (okay, maybe just 'many') of the old DOS floppies I have so that if they disks get trashed or the bits fall off I can remake 'em. I'm assuming I'd probably be making these archives from a Windoze box although DOS or even FreeBSD or Linux is a possibility. Thanks in advance. GZ From kentborg at borg.org Mon Sep 24 08:33:00 2001 From: kentborg at borg.org (Kent Borg) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: <200109232348.f8NNmff14475@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu>; from korpela@ssl.berkeley.edu on Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:48:41PM -0700 References: <200109232348.f8NNmff14475@jill.ssl.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <20010924093300.A23207@borg.org> On Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:48:41PM -0700, Eric J. Korpela wrote: > I went to a public school in Wisconsin. We were taught how to display > the flag in grade school (in the 70s). IMHO, anyone patriotic enough to > display the flag should be patriotic enough to take it down at night, to > keep it out of the rain, and to wrap it properly when it is disposed of. > It's not going to be a symbol that commands respect if US citizens don't > treat it with respect. Nobody here younger than 70 seems to be aware that > there are any guidelines at all. Thanks for posting that, and thanks for the pointer to the flag etiquette. Tattered flags plastered to wet flagpoles in the dark aggravate me. I'm well under 70, and I am feeling like I am not patriotic because I have only been flying our flag on days that I am assured will not rain, and when I remember to out it out before rushing off to work with no breakfast. I am thinking I should rig a light for it so that I would only have to worry about weather and can put it out after daylight savings time is over. Did I line up to buy this flag after the attack? No. Several years ago, after I bought my house, I saw the flag bracket bolted to the front porch and decided I should have a flag for it. I mostly don't fly it there but leave it in a stand indoors because I want to show proper respect. So it isn't even worn out. I didn't need to buy a new one out of sudden patriotism, I already had one that is in fine shape. I don't do this because of some law, I do it because it is a powerful symbol that is important to me. It is an important form of speech for me to so care for it. In fact, I do not think there should be a law dictating respect to our flag. Rather, people who care should show their respect because they care. I would far rather there be few flags flying, but flags that fly proudly and with respect and ceremony. Instead we have them everywhere and everyway as though quantity is somehow the point. A couple years ago I was at an event that included "proper" disposal of some flags. It was poorly done. Squirting some lighter fluid on a synthetic flag that then melted and went out, and then again for the next flag that did the same, each falling into the metal trash can. It did not seem very dignified--even if the guy doing it was a veteran with a funny hat and a cigarette lighter. The people who burn flags in protest have a far better understanding of the power of the symbol, and in a strange reversed way somehow seem to show it more respect than those who treat it with sloppy disregard. At least the protesters frequently manage to have the flag go out in a blaze and not a dim smudge of nasty smoke. -kb, the Kent who remembered to notice the weather prediction and put out his flag this morning, but the Kent who forgot to do so yesterday. From rhblakeman at kih.net Mon Sep 24 10:49:38 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 In-Reply-To: <20010924093300.A23207@borg.org> Message-ID: Again, we hould probably drop this thread in leiu of the on-topic ones but I must agree that the normal people that fly them already had them up before the popularity of flying them (right and wrong) came up. I have a regular in-concrete pole with a light and an all-weather flag but I usually take it down in bad weather and at night. Just a habit from school and 20 yrs in the AF I guess. Helped my neighbor put up a real pole this weekend, the concrete should be cured this evening and I'll be giving him some hints on how to fold it (in 3 and then angled to make a triangle) and how npt to put it up and drag the ground. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Kent Borg -> Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:33 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: FYI: Proper flag uses per Public Law 93-344 -> -> -> On Sun, Sep 23, 2001 at 04:48:41PM -0700, Eric J. Korpela wrote: -> > I went to a public school in Wisconsin. We were taught how to display -> > the flag in grade school (in the 70s). IMHO, anyone patriotic enough to -> > display the flag should be patriotic enough to take it down at -> night, to -> > keep it out of the rain, and to wrap it properly when it is -> disposed of. -> > It's not going to be a symbol that commands respect if US -> citizens don't -> > treat it with respect. Nobody here younger than 70 seems to -> be aware that -> > there are any guidelines at all. -> -> Thanks for posting that, and thanks for the pointer to the flag -> etiquette. Tattered flags plastered to wet flagpoles in the dark -> aggravate me. -> -> I'm well under 70, and I am feeling like I am not patriotic because I -> have only been flying our flag on days that I am assured will not -> rain, and when I remember to out it out before rushing off to work -> with no breakfast. I am thinking I should rig a light for it so that -> I would only have to worry about weather and can put it out after -> daylight savings time is over. -> -> Did I line up to buy this flag after the attack? No. Several years -> ago, after I bought my house, I saw the flag bracket bolted to the -> front porch and decided I should have a flag for it. I mostly don't -> fly it there but leave it in a stand indoors because I want to show -> proper respect. So it isn't even worn out. I didn't need to buy a -> new one out of sudden patriotism, I already had one that is in fine -> shape. -> -> I don't do this because of some law, I do it because it is a powerful -> symbol that is important to me. It is an important form of speech for -> me to so care for it. In fact, I do not think there should be a law -> dictating respect to our flag. Rather, people who care should show -> their respect because they care. I would far rather there be few -> flags flying, but flags that fly proudly and with respect and -> ceremony. Instead we have them everywhere and everyway as though -> quantity is somehow the point. -> -> A couple years ago I was at an event that included "proper" disposal -> of some flags. It was poorly done. Squirting some lighter fluid on a -> synthetic flag that then melted and went out, and then again for the -> next flag that did the same, each falling into the metal trash can. -> It did not seem very dignified--even if the guy doing it was a veteran -> with a funny hat and a cigarette lighter. The people who burn flags -> in protest have a far better understanding of the power of the symbol, -> and in a strange reversed way somehow seem to show it more respect -> than those who treat it with sloppy disregard. At least the -> protesters frequently manage to have the flag go out in a blaze and -> not a dim smudge of nasty smoke. -> -> -> -kb, the Kent who remembered to notice the weather prediction and put -> out his flag this morning, but the Kent who forgot to do so yesterday. -> From foo at siconic.com Mon Sep 24 11:06:49 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 In-Reply-To: <001701c1448d$f670ce30$6701a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Zach Malone wrote: > A friend of mine recently offered to get me a Zilog System 8000 > system that he says is currently acting as a plant stand. Does anyone > have any information on these systems, and if it is not a larger > machine (I am interested in workstation and mini class machines), > would anyone have an interest in this box? Here's a picture from a brochure: http://www.siconic.com/computers/Zilog_System_8000_Brochure.jpg It's a multi-user system based on the Zilog Z8000. Fairly rare (mine is the only one I've ever seen), and worthy of rescue. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From fernande at internet1.net Mon Sep 24 12:30:20 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 References: Message-ID: <3BAF6DAC.E22CB869@internet1.net> I used to have a terminal like the one in the picture. I had it before I knew much about computers. Mid to late 80s, I think. I found it in a trash dump, on a farm, while my dad and I were putting up a tree stand, on some property owned by the father, of a lady at church. I wish I still had it, at least then I could document exactly what it was. Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Sellam Ismail wrote: > > On Sun, 23 Sep 2001, Zach Malone wrote: > > > A friend of mine recently offered to get me a Zilog System 8000 > > system that he says is currently acting as a plant stand. Does anyone > > have any information on these systems, and if it is not a larger > > machine (I am interested in workstation and mini class machines), > > would anyone have an interest in this box? > > Here's a picture from a brochure: > > http://www.siconic.com/computers/Zilog_System_8000_Brochure.jpg > > It's a multi-user system based on the Zilog Z8000. Fairly rare (mine is > the only one I've ever seen), and worthy of rescue. > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From engdahl at cle.ab.com Mon Sep 24 13:01:06 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers vs. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <005101c14522$e1d76980$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Our email system was having virus problems last week, so I got the recent traffic on this thread all at once this morning. It's been very interesting, even when I could not follow all the logic. While I was offline and you guys were debating the semantics, I was able to get a rudimentary microcoded machine running, using the Pentium II as the microengine. A "jmp @$xxx" takes 4 Pentium opcodes. I also have demonstrated the principle of emulating an I/O location by using an access violation to trap to an I/O emulation routine. The I/O emulation routine modifies the saved context of the CPU emulator, then returns from the trap. The preliminary demos were done in a Windows Console environment, using Win32 memory management and the __try and __except mechanism. My take on this debate: Many of the characteristics of what we have traditionally considered "microcoded architectures" were dictated by the economics and performance limitations of contemporary logic resources. For example, the wide instructions, fixed opcode formats, and the one-to-one mapping of instruction fields to multiplexer controls, were all expedients to save pennies and nanoseconds. The presence or absence of these limitations does not qualify or disqualify an implementation as "microcode". Many characteristics of micro-engines are also present in RISC architectures, including jump delays and load delays. Writing assembly language on a RISC machine that has a jump delay is nasty. Writing for a machine that has a load delay is even nastier. When we did a RISC on a chip, we decided to lay down more gates and slow things down to get rid of the load delay. In any case, having these characteristics does not make a machine a microengine, nor the software running on it microcode. It's simply an economic/performance tradeoff that shows up in certain architectures. Speed doesn't make the difference. Many modern emulators (simh, E11) are faster than the original hardware. You could theoretically take a 2901/2910 based platform and implement either a hard drive controller or a CPU on it. In the first case, you would call the program "the disk controller firmware", in the second case, you would call it "the PDP-11 microcode". The platform does not make the software microcode, the purpose of the software does. Every microcoded machine is an emulation. A PERQ hardware platform running PERQ microcode is a PERQ emulation, a PERQ running PDP-11 microcode is a PDP-11. They are both emulations. They are both microcoded. The thing that makes an CPU architecture what it is, is the programmer's model. This environment is sometimes created in raw hardware, and sometimes it is created by implementing an emulation. If the emulation runs on bare hardware, and has exclusive control of that hardware, I would consider it legitimate to call it microcode. If the emulation runs under a software environment (Windows) and uses software resources (the file system), I would call it an emulator. What if you are developing "microcode" on a hardware simulator, such as a software based simulator or an IKOS box? Do you not call it microcode until you actually blow the ROMs and plug them in? A lot of the terminology was squishy to begin with, whether we knew it or not, and has morphed over the years. What you consider "bare hardware" or an emulation can always be debated. I would in any case defer naming rights to the implementor. Microcode: the software that maps a CPU architecture onto a hardware platform, where that software has exclusive and direct control over the hardware. -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From mmcfadden at cmh.edu Mon Sep 24 13:15:51 2001 From: mmcfadden at cmh.edu (McFadden, Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers Message-ID: Warning Heresy follows :) DG alert! I'm not the expert on microcoding versus writable control stores. I seem to dimely remember that there was a whole section about microcoding in the 1981 book by Tracy Kidder "Soul of a new machine". Lots of microcode was used to emulate "old" instructions from previous machines. Also to perform complex series of instructions. Mike mmcfadden@cmh.edu From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 24 13:16:29 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 In-Reply-To: Re: Zilog 8000 (Chad Fernandez) References: <3BAF6DAC.E22CB869@internet1.net> Message-ID: <15279.30845.608728.663298@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 24, Chad Fernandez wrote: > I used to have a terminal like the one in the picture. I had it before > I knew much about computers. Mid to late 80s, I think. I found it in a > trash dump, on a farm, while my dad and I were putting up a tree stand, > on some property owned by the father, of a lady at church. I wish I > still had it, at least then I could document exactly what it was. Hmm...They look like Lear-Siegler ADM-3A terminals to me... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Mon Sep 24 13:53:06 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: Tony Eros "Source for technical manuals?" (Sep 24, 9:00) References: <5.0.2.1.0.20010924085743.02366250@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <10109241953.ZM21883@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 24, 9:00, Tony Eros wrote: > I'm trying to remember a web site I used to visit that had a number of old > computer and instrument service guides for sale. I bought a Heathkit EC-1 > assembly manual from them. Now, I can't seem to recall the name of the > place -- doesn't look like I saved the address in my browser bookmarks, > either. I know it's not abebooks or alibris -- any suggestions? This rings a bell, and I thought I had something of the sort bookmarked. These may not be exactly what you're looking for but they may help: http://www.manualserver.com/ http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/ http://www.instruction-manuals.co.uk/cattable.htm http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~itda/ http://w3.trib.com/~rollo/index.html or http://www.bomarc.org/ http://www.accesscom.com/~gamba/manuals2.html http://www.sarasota-electronics.com/samsrch.htm http://members.tripod.com/NRWILLIAMSON/HEATHMAN.htm http://www.circuitarchive.co.uk/heath.htm http://www.manualman.com/products.htm I expect a web search would turn up lots more. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Sep 24 13:56:30 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: DG MVs (was RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Mike McFadden wrote: > I'm not the expert on microcoding versus writable control stores. I seem to > dimely remember that there was a whole section about microcoding in the 1981 > book by Tracy Kidder "Soul of a new machine". Lots of microcode was used to > emulate "old" instructions from previous machines. Also to perform complex > series of instructions. The Eagle (MV) 32-bit members of the Eclipse family, like the 16-bit members before them, were indeed microcoded -- with the difference that the MVs had soft microcode that was loaded off of magnetic media (floppies on the original MV8K; later from files stored in the native AOS/VS file system). Faced with the issue of _how_ to read the microcode the MV designers did something modestly clever. Since the MV is an almost-proper superset of the Nova, and since the Nova ISA was well understood, when a MV first powers up it thinks it's a slightly brain damaged Nova 800 (there's no page zero auto inc/auto dec instructions and most "do nothing" I/O an skip instructions are not honored), which gave them a reasonably complex abstraction upon which to open and traverse file systems looking for the MV microcode... -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From jhellige at earthlink.net Mon Sep 24 17:28:18 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? In-Reply-To: <20010923103130.C78A220F1A@mail.iae.nl> References: <20010923103130.C78A220F1A@mail.iae.nl> Message-ID: An idea I've had that I may try is using my GVP PC286 board for my Amiga 500. Oddly, it's the only machine I have capable of running MS-DOS that also has both 3.5 and 5.25" floppy drives as well as a hard disk. As I've found in the past, the hard disk is essential when trying to make disk images. I've never actually tried using the A1020 5.25" drive as a PC floppy from the PC286 though, but the manual suggests it should work fine. With the 16mhz '286 onboard, the PC286 is also faster than the odd XT class machines I have as well. For those not familiar with it, the GVP PC286 is an 80286 cpu with 512k RAM that plugs into the internal expansion slot of the GVP Series II hard disk controllers for the Amiga 500. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dpeschel at eskimo.com Mon Sep 24 18:42:26 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: DG MVs (was RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: ; from chris@mainecoon.com on Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:56:30AM -0700 References: Message-ID: <20010924164226.B19211@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 11:56:30AM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Faced with the issue of _how_ to read the microcode the MV designers > did something modestly clever. Since the MV is an almost-proper superset > of the Nova, and since the Nova ISA was well understood, when a MV first > powers up it thinks it's a slightly brain damaged Nova 800 (there's no > page zero auto inc/auto dec instructions and most "do nothing" I/O an > skip instructions are not honored), which gave them a reasonably > complex abstraction upon which to open and traverse file systems > looking for the MV microcode... But where is the microcode for the brain-damaged Nova 800 instruction set stored, and can it be overwritten? -- Derek From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Sep 24 19:25:43 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? Message-ID: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real 800K media? From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Mon Sep 24 19:18:40 2001 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE@aol.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Ohio Scientific computer rescue underway Message-ID: <91.10d56674.28e12760@aol.com> Got an email from someone saying he saw my OSI C1P in my online collection and he's got 4 of them in various configurations he will be sending to me. I can't wait to see what I've got. Would be cool if they had disk drives and such. I think they are all basic C1P models though. From KenzieM at sympatico.ca Mon Sep 24 19:46:40 2001 From: KenzieM at sympatico.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? References: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> Message-ID: <000e01c1455b$d383b850$0101a8c0@sympatico.ca> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:25 PM Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? > I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I > have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to > go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer > stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells > the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K > drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real > 800K media? I have a lead on another IIgs. It should be available as soon as the owner finished copying the files from it. I also have a spare IIsi. Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 24 20:31:13 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, David Betz wrote: > I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I > have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to > go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer > stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells > the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K > drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real > 800K media? 800K diskettes (aka 720K) are about 600 Oerstedt. 1.4M diskettes are about 750 Oerstedt. While it's not "right", it is close enough that you will usually get away with it, most of the time, for unimportant stuff, if you're lucky. (unlike 360K v 1.2M, which are 300 and 600 Oerstedts respectively and too different) IOW, you CAN make a poor quality 800K diskette out of a good 1.4M diskette. MOST 720K/800K drives don't even have a media type sensor, and won't care. But to use a 1.4M diskette as 720K/800K in a modern 1.4M drive, cover the hole with opague tape. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 24 19:39:06 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> from "David Betz" at Sep 24, 1 08:25:43 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1081 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010925/1dbcca9d/attachment.ksh From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Mon Sep 24 21:46:13 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109250247.f8P2kxx15130@chmls20.mediaone.net> On Monday, September 24, 2001, at 08:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't know what machine you're intending to write the disk images to > disk on, but I am almost certain that a PC floppy controller is > incapable > of writing the Apple 800K format (which uses GCR encoding, not MFM as > PCs > do). I'm going to write them on a Macintosh which should be able to write 800K disks successfully. From swtpc6800 at home.com Mon Sep 24 22:16:08 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? References: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> Message-ID: <001b01c14570$6bfbc3c0$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> I buy 720K 3.5 inch diskette on eBay for about $20 per 100. (You can find a box of 10 if you don't need a 100.) I search for "floppy 720K". Every week there is someone selling new-in-box floppies. I also have bought 360K 5.25 disks. I have no connection with the following eBay auction (Item # 1277913625). http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1277913625 If someone needs a boot disk for their SWTPC 6800 or 6809 computer, I can provided one. Michael Holley ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 5:25 PM Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? > I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I > have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to > go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer > stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells > the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K > drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real > 800K media? > > From mythtech at Mac.com Mon Sep 24 23:02:35 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? Message-ID: >I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I >have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to >go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer >stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells >the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K >drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real >800K media? I have used HDs as DDs before (specifically on the Mac, so it is relivant to your situation, as it is dealing with going from 1.4 to 800 or 400k). I can tell you that it does work, but not reliably. The data seems to fail over time, not so much length of time, but read/write time. Unfortuantly, the length varies greatly (and seems format dependant, not disk dependant). Sometimes they work for a dozen or so uses, other times they might work for 100 or so. Once they start to fail, reformatting them seems to refresh the usability. I have learned that it simply isn't reliable enough except to use for short term temporary work. HOWEVER, the good news is, MEI Micro still seems to sell DD disks. They only sell them in a 500 pack for $50, which is kind of a bummer, but at least they can be bought. You can find them on MEI's web site (but not in their print catalog) at http://www.mei-microcenter.com. I have used their floppy disks in the past and have never had any problems with them. Last time I bought their disks, I believe they were actually generic labeled Sony's, but that was some years ago, and I would guess they get their's from lowest cost suppliers, so that might have changed by now. -chris From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Sep 24 23:28:19 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: DG MVs (was RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20010924164226.B19211@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: Derek Peschel wrote: > But where is the microcode for the brain-damaged Nova 800 instruction set > stored, and can it be overwritten? PROMs, and no, I know of no way to overwrite _that_ code. Instead you execute a load microstore operation, which moves data from memory to microstore and resets the machine such that it begins execution from soft microstore rather than the proms. I'll have a look-see in the POP for the details. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From donm at cts.com Tue Sep 25 00:06:26 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, David Betz wrote: > I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I > have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to > go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer > stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells > the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K > drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real > 800K media? David, I believe that I will be able to pick up some once written 720/800k diskettes come next swapmeet on the 6th of September at a reasonable price if you - or anyone else - are interested. I bought a batch of 1.44s a while back from the same vendor and they have been quite satisfactory. They were Compaq diagnostic disks and carried rather easily removable labels. Let me know. - don From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 25 00:43:58 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: References: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> from "David Betz" at Sep 24, 1 08:25:43 pm Message-ID: >> I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I >> have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to >> go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer >> stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells >> the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K > >AFAIK the Apple 800K disks are the same physically as PC 720K disks (aka I must live in media heaven, since local stores still stock every kind of Floppy (except ED that I do really hunt for, but don't buy on eBay, thanks), and plenty (except ED) show up used. Last week I brought home a couple hundred nice old used floppies, many with nice stuff on them. Just today I got a 5.25" with Stickybear Math for the PC. Oh the Horror I bought what I could manage, then watched as a guy went through a barrel full of LVD SCSI cables chopping off connectors. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 25 00:59:36 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: The hunt for new sources... SoCal In-Reply-To: References: <200109041248.FAA10766@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: I have been hunting for new scrap yards to dig in, and found a couple new ones this week. Unfortunately the most interesting one I wasn't able to even look around in, (maybe Thur as the boss wasn't in, but they also gave me the wholesale only biz). Anyway I noticed half a dozen old full size tape drives in a big pile, makes me itch to poke around. From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 25 01:06:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879DA1@MAIL10> Message-ID: > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of >keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. >I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the >ZX81 I got in a trade. Two questions; Can you buy a working unit without too much trouble? How important is it to you to build the item? If you just want a functional item, leave the kit alone and buy a working unit if you can. OTOH if the kit is common and working units rare, reverse it. From dpeschel at eskimo.com Tue Sep 25 03:34:39 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: DG MVs (was RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: ; from chris@mainecoon.com on Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 09:28:19PM -0700 References: <20010924164226.B19211@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <20010925013439.A17897@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Mon, Sep 24, 2001 at 09:28:19PM -0700, Chris Kennedy wrote: > Derek Peschel wrote: > > > But where is the microcode for the brain-damaged Nova 800 instruction set > > stored, and can it be overwritten? > > PROMs, and no, I know of no way to overwrite _that_ code. Instead you > execute a load microstore operation, which moves data from memory to > microstore and resets the machine such that it begins execution from > soft microstore rather than the proms. ... And once you've loaded your own microcode, do the PROMs take up any room in the microaddress space? And does the microcode handle the load operation, or is there some sort of dedicated circuit? I assume the load operation isn't supposed to happen while an ordinary program is running (though that _would_ be an opportunity for spectacularly efficient and inscrutable code). It's scary how similar this is to a popular booting technique (switch on boot ROM, use it to load RAM, switch off boot ROM) except, of course, that you're one level lower. -- Derek From jhellige at earthlink.net Tue Sep 25 04:13:22 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <200109250247.f8P2kxx15130@chmls20.mediaone.net> References: <200109250247.f8P2kxx15130@chmls20.mediaone.net> Message-ID: >I'm going to write them on a Macintosh which should be able to write >800K disks successfully. It will work fine as long as it's an older Mac. Most of your PPC based Mac's, especially those running OS 8.6 and newer, have trouble with the 400k and 800k formats. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From r_beaudry at hotmail.com Tue Sep 25 07:36:35 2001 From: r_beaudry at hotmail.com (Rich Beaudry) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Icom Attache up for auction Message-ID: Hello all, I never thought I'd say this here, but then I also never thought I'd see what I saw on 09/11... My ICOM Attache is up for auction on eBay. It is an "Auction for America" item, which means that I do not see a single penny of proceeds. I have elected for the winning bid to be donated to the September 11th Fund. The Attache is NOT complete, so see the description and pictures for more details... It does include some documentation and schematics http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1278512829 It was hard to give this up, but it was a cakewalk compared to what others have lost. Bidding was already up to $202.50 this morning, but I hope someone will go higher... Also, some of you might consider doing the same. I didn't have a spare $202 in cash, but I did have this computer to donate the proceeds... Rich B. From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 25 08:21:10 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:54 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: Message-ID: <001901c145c4$f16ddc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> "OTOH if the kit is common and working units rare, reverse it." What? How do you "un-solder" a kit and leave it looking new? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 12:06 AM Subject: Re: Keep or assemble??? > > I'm wondering, without creating flame bait, the pros and cons of > >keeping a computer kit versus assembling it? > > > > I have an unbuilt Sinclair ZX81 kit that I'm toying with assembling. > >I also have a TV Typewriter-6 kit. I bought the TVT6 for my KIM-1 and the > >ZX81 I got in a trade. > > Two questions; > > Can you buy a working unit without too much trouble? > > How important is it to you to build the item? If you just want a functional > item, leave the kit alone and buy a working unit if you can. > > OTOH if the kit is common and working units rare, reverse it. > > > From glindsey at ssinc.com Tue Sep 25 08:24:56 2001 From: glindsey at ssinc.com (Greg Lindsey) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? References: <007a01c14558$a132bca0$bb23010a@dbnh> Message-ID: <004c01c145c5$7b719640$3f10a8c0@ssinc.com> "David Betz" wrote: > I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try it out. I > have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an unsure how to > go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local computer > stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole that tells > the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will the 800K > drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source for real > 800K media? I just purchased a LOT of 3.5" DD disks from http://www.supermediastore.com/ -- they sell bulk packs of 500 for $20 each. (The $20 is listed as a "sale price", but it has been for a few months now.) Of course you'll have to pay for shipping, and you'll need to pick up separate labels, but you should be set for a long time, mediawise. My attempts to cover the hole on HD disks and format them have been less than successful; none of them passed the "verify" stage of the format cycle. Of course, those were old, cheap HD disks... but why take the chance when the correct media is so cheap? GSL From kevan at heydon.org Tue Sep 25 08:56:14 2001 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010924085743.02366250@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Sep 2001, Tony Eros wrote: > > I'm trying to remember a web site I used to visit that had a number of old > computer and instrument service guides for sale. I found this site the other day while searching for information on a Sinclar PFM-200: http://www.mauritron.co.uk/frame_main.htm I haven't used them yet, just bookmarked them in my webbrowser as a possible source of manuals in the future. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From mythtech at Mac.com Tue Sep 25 09:02:14 2001 From: mythtech at Mac.com (Chris) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? Message-ID: > It will work fine as long as it's an older Mac. Most of your >PPC based Mac's, especially those running OS 8.6 and newer, have >trouble with the 400k and 800k formats. I have had some formating problems on PPC macs and 800k disk. The format seems to work, but the disk is usually unreadable in an older 800k drive (1.4mb drives seem ok). Reading and writing to a preformatted 800k disk has never been a problem. So I either format a disk in an older non PPC machine, or I also have a blank 800k disk image that I can copy to a disk, that always seems to work fine (the image was created off a disk that was formatted on a non PPC mac). 400k is a totally different issue. A: I believe the drives themselves may be incapable of working with 400k, but more importantly B: starting with OS 8.0 (I think it was 8.0), MFS file support was dropped. No MFS, no 400k disks. 800k disks use HFS so there isn't a problem there. Of course, I keep a handy dandy LC kicking around for just this very issue (the LC connects nicely to my ethernet network, and runs 7.1 so it will read and write 400, 800, 1.4mb, DOS and ProDOS disks, giving me access to all of the above on my iMac). -chris From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Tue Sep 25 09:38:40 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: TANDEM CYCLONE for sale Message-ID: <3BB096F0.3030200@aurora.regenstrief.org> Hi, I know a place where they're selling a TANDEM CYCLONE mainframe: * Description: Clycone Mainframe Computer Cabinets with Himalaya K series Disk drives. Data Files and hard drives have been removed. * MFG: TANDEM * Model: CYCLONE * Condition: Used - Good * Size: 24x24x50 * Weight: 700 * Year of Manufacture: 1993 it's in Kansas City, MO. Starting bid is $50, increment $50, reserve not yet met :-(. 8 days to go. No, it's not ebay. Don't bid against each other. I'm not interested myself, neither in the computer nor in the sale of it. Just thought it may be a good deal. Let me know if you're interested. cheers, -Gunther -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From lgwalker at mts.net Tue Sep 25 09:42:56 2001 From: lgwalker at mts.net (Lawrence Walker) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Two classic sightings In-Reply-To: <001701c1444b$c41c27a0$8a0101ac@ibm23xhr06> Message-ID: <3BB051A0.17688.1DEDAD@localhost> Sounds like a take-off from an famous early Jazz "Bop" recording with Miles Davis, Gil Evans, and Gerry Mulligan, among others, titled 'The Birth of the Cool", Lawrence > Cameron Kaiser, Don Fagen, and Walter Becker said: > > sampled drums and sequenced music -- 'the birth of the cruel' > > I'd be very interested to know what they meant by That. > > John A. > Reply to: lgwalker@mts.net From chris at mainecoon.com Tue Sep 25 09:42:36 2001 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: DG MVs (was RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20010925013439.A17897@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: Derek Peschel wrote: > ... And once you've loaded your own microcode, do the PROMs take up any > room in the microaddress space? And does the microcode handle the load > operation, or is there some sort of dedicated circuit? I can't find any _architectural_ specification for this. The PROMs clearly do not form part of the MV microcode set; in effect a bank switch takes place after the microcode is loaded. > I assume the load operation isn't supposed to happen while an ordinary > program is running (though that _would_ be an opportunity for spectacularly > efficient and inscrutable code). There's no functionality in the MV instruction set that allows the control store to be manipulated -- it's implemented in the dorked-up Nova 800 instruction set in the tried-and-true fashion of the 16-bit Eclipse instruction set: Recycle meaningless-but- valid instructions (for example, things like register-to-register moves with the same source and destination register with no skip or always skip conditions set) to create space for the new instruction. > It's scary how similar this is to a popular booting technique (switch on > boot ROM, use it to load RAM, switch off boot ROM) except, of course, that > you're one level lower. It was modestly brilliant. By creating a hardwired ISA using a model that was well understood (i.e., unlikely to ever need revision), the designers allowed themselves a much higher level of abstraction when building code that had to, among other things, interact with the I/O subsystem. Since they already had architectural verification programs in place for the Nova it was trivial to modify them to verify the correctness of the boot firmware. -- Chris Kennedy chris@mainecoon.com http://www.mainecoon.com PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 09:58:58 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Amiga 3000 problem In-Reply-To: <1038.664T1737T23041rachael_@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20010925145858.81848.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jacob Dahl Pind wrote: > on 19-Sep-01 10:41:29, Willi Kusche wrote: > >Hi! > > I'm composing this message on an Amiga 3000 that had its motherboard > > upgraded from 16 Mhz to 25 Mhz. Ever since the upgrade I occasionally > > get a video crash that makes the screen unreadable. But, the system > > keeps running OK. > > Sounds like the two PAL ic on the left side, under any zorro cards you > may have installed, they have a nasty habit of running hot, and makingen > the screen unreadable. I had problems with my PALs there, too. My symptoms were sparklies and wavy video lines. I tried to burn my own replacements, but I was never able to get any of mine to work there. Not sure if it was a speed or vendor problem or not. In the end, I bought a new set from a C= reseller. -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 11:02:25 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Assembly vs. Everything Else (was: SemiOT: Mourning forClassicComputing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010925160225.77227.qmail@web20106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I am, of course, rather more excited by the ability to display an > arbitrary pattern on a row of LEDs connected to a (static) output port > than being able to display text on a CRT screen. Because even in the > worst case I can replace said LEDs with the LED side of some > opto-isolators. And use those to control triacs or relays. And the > 'Control the World' :-) I have some programs for the PET that did just that. It was for an energy conservation exhibit at a local science museum (COSI) in the late 1970s. There were lights, a la "The Price is Right", in the backdrop of the exhibit that flashed under computer control. They had an attract mode, and several patterns while the person was playing the energy conservation game. I don't know exactly how the hardware was hooked up, but I know it was driven off the user port. Probably just 8 triacs and multiple bulbs per bit to achieve chase-light effects. At the time, I was more fascinated by the text animations done in assembler - smooth for the day, especially compared to the stuff I was writing at age 12 in BASIC. :-) -ethan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 25 11:56:51 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Source? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We just manhandled our Keronix upstairs into the mill and have started working on it. It is in rough shape but largely intact except for a gaping hole underneath the cpu and above the Diablo drive. Some of the cards were marked, and these were restored to the cage. The cooling system runs fine, but cpu power is out. There is a Newport tape controller card, does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts about a the drive? Some card cages at the back suggest it might be rather short, something like a Dectape. Also, does anyone know anything about Xerox Diablo hard drives? M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Tue Sep 25 13:24:59 2001 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010924085743.02366250@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <15lvsL-2FlWDYC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:00:47 -0400, Tony Eros wrote: >I'm trying to remember a web site I used to visit that had a number of old >computer and instrument service guides for sale. I bought a Heathkit EC-1 >assembly manual from them. Now, I can't seem to recall the name of the >place -- doesn't look like I saved the address in my browser bookmarks, >either. I know it's not abebooks or alibris -- any suggestions? > >-- Tony > it maybe http://www.spies.com/~aek/orphanage.html look there Greetings from Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ From erd_6502 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 25 12:38:03 2001 From: erd_6502 at yahoo.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Qbus HDLC controller -- a "what is it" board In-Reply-To: <000101c142ca$3bcf1a60$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <20010925173803.47672.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > Here's something else from my junk box that somebody might know what to > do > with: > > Four half-width Qbus boards, built by Applied Computer Consultants, Santa > Barbara, CA... I just asked my old boss from Software Results and he thinks this might have been known as an IRMA. ACC at least had a product for DEC boxes that presented the appearance of being a 3270-ish device. I don't know if that means that this board emulates a 3274 (PU Type 2) or not, but from your description, there's enough stuff there to pull it off. The SNA COMBOARDs did it with an 8Mhz 68000 w/128-512Kb of RAM and either a Z8530 (newer designs) or COM5025 (older designs). We had our own DMA engine built from PALs that looked like a block of memory space to the 68K processor... made programming really easy! (Especially on the Q22 bus - it was just a direct map of the Qbus to 68K space - no wierd translations on the board side - I've used a COMBOARD-Q to test RAM in a PDP-11). There were several companies from the late 1970s through the early 1990s that produced DEC<->IBM products - Software Results, ACC, Sympact, and a few more. Eventually, DEC got into it as well, making life hard for us small fry that only had a few products. It wasn't always like that; prior to 1984, DEC used to throw us leads because they didn't have anything that would do what a COMBOARD could do. Grow the market enough and people will come from all corners to get a slice of it. If there are no other takers, I'm interested, purely from the historical standpoint of working for a competitor and being curious how they did it. I have no software or docs and will probably never power it up, but I can at least show people that for DEC<->IBM comms, "there's more than one way to do it". ;-) -ethan P.S. - Yes, I know I still owe you a box of quad handles. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com From bkr at WildHareComputers.com Tue Sep 25 12:48:59 2001 From: bkr at WildHareComputers.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Source? References: Message-ID: <002d01c145ea$5b979890$0100a8c0@dellhare> M.K.Peirce Keronix...? Do you have any .jpgs of it or configuration info? Weren't Newports similar to Computer Operations [COI] tape drives [like DECtape I's/LINCtapes]? I recall the name but need to do some searching Al Kossow might have some Diablo docs scanned. Are these 31's or 44's? And Carl F. .... here is your next : Bruce Ray www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Merle K. Peirce" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 10:56 AM Subject: Re: Source? > > We just manhandled our Keronix upstairs into the mill and have started > working on it. It is in rough shape but largely intact except for a > gaping hole underneath the cpu and above the Diablo drive. Some of the > cards were marked, and these were restored to the cage. The cooling > system runs fine, but cpu power is out. There is a Newport tape > controller card, does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts > about a the drive? Some card cages at the back suggest it might be > rather short, something like a Dectape. > > Also, does anyone know anything about Xerox Diablo hard drives? > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From mikeford at socal.rr.com Tue Sep 25 12:46:00 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <001901c145c4$f16ddc60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: >"OTOH if the kit is common and working units rare, reverse it." > >What? How do you "un-solder" a kit and leave it looking new? Reverse my advice, ie build the kit to make hopefully one more working unit. From fernande at internet1.net Tue Sep 25 01:13:07 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:55 2005 Subject: Zilog 8000 References: <3BAF6DAC.E22CB869@internet1.net> <15279.30845.608728.663298@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BB02073.734808F8@internet1.net> Approximately what years would they have been is use? decommissioned? Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Dave McGuire wrote: > > On September 24, Chad Fernandez wrote: > > I used to have a terminal like the one in the picture. I had it before > > I knew much about computers. Mid to late 80s, I think. I found it in a > > trash dump, on a farm, while my dad and I were putting up a tree stand, > > on some property owned by the father, of a lady at church. I wish I > > still had it, at least then I could document exactly what it was. > > Hmm...They look like Lear-Siegler ADM-3A terminals to me... > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Sep 25 14:10:37 2001 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:08:56 2005 Subject: Source? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Merle K. Peirce wrote: > > We just manhandled our Keronix upstairs into the mill and have started > working on it. It is in rough shape but largely intact except for a > gaping hole underneath the cpu and above the Diablo drive. Some of the > cards were marked, and these were restored to the cage. The cooling > system runs fine, but cpu power is out. There is a Newport tape > controller card, does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts > about a the drive? Some card cages at the back suggest it might be > rather short, something like a Dectape. > > Also, does anyone know anything about Xerox Diablo hard drives? I have a Model 30 maintenance manual which covers models 31, 33, and 33F what model do you have? > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 25 14:21:41 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:04 2005 Subject: DEC Licensing Fun Message-ID: <200109251921.f8PJLfR02361@narnia.int.dittman.net> Someone emailed me doubting license generators exist outside of DEC, so here's one you can verify: Issuer: DITTMAN Authorization: DITTMAN-TEST-LICENSE-1 Product Name: THE-UNIVERSE Producer: THE-BIG-BANG Units: 1000000 Version: 1.0 Availability: A Options: (MOD_UNITS) Checksum: 4-BBPB-DBPM-NGKD-DPKB -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Tue Sep 25 14:25:53 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:04 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: Message-ID: <001b01c145f7$e499ae00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I think someone pointed out weeks ago that the working units bring a lot less money on the open market (a.k.a. eBay) than complete but unassembled kits. To me, it makes sense to take the $100 for the unassembled kit and buy an assembled unit for $30 as previous posts suggest they cost, if you really want the unit. My initial impression was that the original posting was from someone wh really didn't even particularly want the assembled/working unit. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ford" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 11:46 AM Subject: Re: Keep or assemble??? > >"OTOH if the kit is common and working units rare, reverse it." > > > >What? How do you "un-solder" a kit and leave it looking new? > > Reverse my advice, ie build the kit to make hopefully one more working unit. > > > From Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de Tue Sep 25 13:24:59 2001 From: Fritz_Chwolka at t-online.de (Fritz Chwolka) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:04 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20010924085743.02366250@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <15lvsL-2FlWDYC@fwd00.sul.t-online.com> On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:00:47 -0400, Tony Eros wrote: >I'm trying to remember a web site I used to visit that had a number of old >computer and instrument service guides for sale. I bought a Heathkit EC-1 >assembly manual from them. Now, I can't seem to recall the name of the >place -- doesn't look like I saved the address in my browser bookmarks, >either. I know it's not abebooks or alibris -- any suggestions? > >-- Tony > it maybe http://www.spies.com/~aek/orphanage.html look there Greetings from Fritz Chwolka - Duisburg / collecting old computers just for fun at www.alterechner.de \ From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Sep 25 16:06:29 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:04 2005 Subject: H&T 20(?) in TRS model 100 ??? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010925170629.0079cdb0@mailhost.intellistar.net> I recently found a TR model 100 with an odd looking device plugged into it. Abouty half of the access door on the bach is cut away in it and there is a 20 pin ribbon cable header inside the cut out. Stamped in the header is "H&T 20". I don't know if that's the name of just the head4er or the entire assemble. I removed the cover plate and inside is a small PC card with the header and three SSI ICs (74HC245, 74HC02 amd a 74HC244). The whole thing fits inside the original opening (so you don't have to remove the back case to install or remove it) and it plugs into the 28 pin LSI IC socket. Does anyone know what this is? Hint: It will ber looking fore a home at this weekend's computer junkfest in Orlando. Joe From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Tue Sep 25 16:23:51 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:04 2005 Subject: DEC Licensing Fun Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066153@exc-reo1> > Eric Dittman wrote: > >Someone emailed me doubting license generators exist outside of DEC, >so here's one you can verify: Neat - it works :-) So is this PAKGEN or did you build one yourself? Antonio From pechter at ureach.com Tue Sep 25 16:46:57 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:04 2005 Subject: DEC Licensing Fun Message-ID: <200109252146.RAA02144@stage21.ureach.com> Slick... -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) ---- On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman (dittman@dittman.net) wrote: > Someone emailed me doubting license generators exist outside of DEC, > so here's one you can verify: > > Issuer: DITTMAN > Authorization: DITTMAN-TEST-LICENSE-1 > Product Name: THE-UNIVERSE > Producer: THE-BIG-BANG > Units: 1000000 > Version: 1.0 > Availability: A > Options: (MOD_UNITS) > Checksum: 4-BBPB-DBPM-NGKD-DPKB > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 16:28:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <200109250247.f8P2kxx15130@chmls20.mediaone.net> from "David Betz" at Sep 24, 1 10:46:13 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 553 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010925/7e7a6811/attachment.ksh From optimus at canit.se Tue Sep 25 17:36:29 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1526.668T1450T14165563optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >AFAIK the Apple 800K disks are the same physically as PC 720K disks (aka >DD (double density) disks). They have a difference coercivity to HD >(1.44M disks) and in general it is not reliable to use HD disks as 720K >(or 800K) ones. Why do people insist on calling them 720 K disks? There is no such stupid invention. They're 1 MB disks, not 720 K, not 800 K, not 880 K. Oh, and there are no 1.44 MB disks either. >I believe that DD disks are still available (they certainly were in the >UK when I needed some a couple of months back). It's worth getting the >right thing. The physical disk is a lot cheaper than your data :-) Amiga shops should be able to supply them. But they haven't been easy to find for the last five years or so. MicroWarehouse still features them in their catalogue, though at a premium. >I don't know what machine you're intending to write the disk images to >disk on, but I am almost certain that a PC floppy controller is incapable >of writing the Apple 800K format (which uses GCR encoding, not MFM as PCs >do). OTOH, Macs with SuperDrives should do it. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. When cherry tree blooms, people go and walk there, eat dumpling, bring sake and talk each other such things as "A superb view!" and "Full of spring here", and they become very happily and cheerful. But this is a lie. People gather below cherry trees and get drunk, vomit, fight, which are happening since the old days of Edo period. From long time ago. THE FULL OF CHERRY BOOLMS, CHAPTER 1 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 16:45:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: DG MVs (was RE: microcoding a PC into a PDP-11 (was: RE: Classic Computers In-Reply-To: <20010925013439.A17897@eskimo.eskimo.com> from "Derek Peschel" at Sep 25, 1 01:34:39 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2786 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010925/cf2dffa8/attachment.ksh From engdahl at cle.ab.com Tue Sep 25 17:22:55 2001 From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Qbus HDLC controller -- a "what is it" board In-Reply-To: <20010925173803.47672.qmail@web20101.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008101c14610$9f63bf60$664199a1@rcs.ra.rockwell.com> > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > > --- Jonathan Engdahl wrote: > > Here's something else from my junk box that somebody might know what to > > do > > with: > > > > Four half-width Qbus boards, built by Applied Computer > Consultants, Santa > > Barbara, CA... > > I just asked my old boss from Software Results and he thinks this might > have been known as an IRMA. ACC at least had a product for DEC boxes > that presented the appearance of being a 3270-ish device. I don't know > if that means that this board emulates a 3274 (PU Type 2) or not, but ... A Google search yielded a thread from several years ago on this list about an ACC board set that included an MDMA, but the rest was different. It seemed to be an IMP, or part of one. http://www.classiccmp.org/mail-archive/classiccmp/1998-08/0050.html Did the IMPS talk HDLC? -- Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl@cle.ab.com 216-266-6409 From optimus at canit.se Tue Sep 25 18:19:31 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Amiga 3000 problem In-Reply-To: <20010925145858.81848.qmail@web20103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <696.669T1550T195415optimus@canit.se> Ethan Dicks skrev: >I had problems with my PALs there, too. My symptoms were sparklies and >wavy video lines. I tried to burn my own replacements, but I was never >able to get any of mine to work there. Not sure if it was a speed or >vendor problem or not. In the end, I bought a new set from a C= reseller. A friend of mine tells me that the A3000 PALs were of a particularly fast kind. He's been having a lot of troubles sourcing them. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Kimagure Orange Road inneh?ller v?ldigt mycket ton?rsromantik, extremt mycket ton?rsromantik faktiskt. Men det ?r samtidigt en av de st?rsta klassikerna inom shojo, kanske till och med den absolut st?rsta. - Animanga.nu From dittman at dittman.net Tue Sep 25 17:32:01 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: DEC Licensing Fun In-Reply-To: from "Carlini, Antonio" at Sep 25, 2001 02:23:51 PM Message-ID: <200109252232.f8PMW1Y02988@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > > >Someone emailed me doubting license generators exist outside of > DEC, > >so here's one you can verify: > > Neat - it works :-) > > So is this PAKGEN or did you build > one yourself? My own. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Sep 25 18:48:37 2001 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source? References: Message-ID: <3BB117D5.2416DFA7@tiac.net> 14 inch, or the smaller 8 inch drives? "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > We just manhandled our Keronix upstairs into the mill and have started > working on it. It is in rough shape but largely intact except for a > gaping hole underneath the cpu and above the Diablo drive. Some of the > cards were marked, and these were restored to the cage. The cooling > system runs fine, but cpu power is out. There is a Newport tape > controller card, does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts > about a the drive? Some card cages at the back suggest it might be > rather short, something like a Dectape. > > Also, does anyone know anything about Xerox Diablo hard drives? > > M. K. Peirce > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue Sep 25 18:48:10 2001 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: References: <200109250247.f8P2kxx15130@chmls20.mediaone.net> <200109250247.f8P2kxx15130@chmls20.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010925164733.031d0ab0@mail.zipcon.net> I've never had troupble with my 8100, 8500 or 9500 writing 800K floppies, and they are all running 8.6 or 9.1 At 05:13 AM 9/25/01 -0400, you wrote: >>I'm going to write them on a Macintosh which should be able to write 800K >>disks successfully. > > It will work fine as long as it's an older Mac. Most of your PPC > based Mac's, especially those running OS 8.6 and newer, have trouble with > the 400k and 800k formats. > > Jeff >-- > Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File > http://www.cchaven.com > http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 > From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 25 18:55:39 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source? In-Reply-To: <002d01c145ea$5b979890$0100a8c0@dellhare> Message-ID: I just made a trip over to the mill to check. The Diablo is a 44B. The tape card reads "Newport Technology Corp. Model NT-10A Interface s/n 10091" There is an addition M-1 memory card, an Asynchrous Mux 100133-C maker unknown, a card marked Media III 531194L, with lights marked; R R S D H C W D N L D C D Y C E E E At least I think those lights are on that board, my notes are garbled. Slot 1 is the Keronix CPU model ID516 12 #446 Slot 2 is a Keronix P-3 #907 Slot 3 is a Keronix type 1007-3 I/O Controller #I90412, marked "9600 Bd" Slot 5 is a Keronix M-1 memory board "16KX16" Slot 16/17 are a Digital Alarm System model MGC #334 The card cage is a Keronix 8117C No.B #1015 I'll try to get a picture up in a day or two. On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Bruce Ray wrote: > M.K.Peirce > > Keronix...? Do you have any .jpgs of it or configuration info? Weren't > Newports similar to Computer Operations [COI] tape drives [like DECtape > I's/LINCtapes]? I recall the name but need to do some searching > > Al Kossow might have some Diablo docs scanned. Are these 31's or 44's? > > And Carl F. .... here is your next : > > Bruce Ray > > www.NovasAreForever.com > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Merle K. Peirce" > To: > Cc: > Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 10:56 AM > Subject: Re: Source? > > > > > > We just manhandled our Keronix upstairs into the mill and have started > > working on it. It is in rough shape but largely intact except for a > > gaping hole underneath the cpu and above the Diablo drive. Some of the > > cards were marked, and these were restored to the cage. The cooling > > system runs fine, but cpu power is out. There is a Newport tape > > controller card, does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts > > about a the drive? Some card cages at the back suggest it might be > > rather short, something like a Dectape. > > > > Also, does anyone know anything about Xerox Diablo hard drives? > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From at258 at osfn.org Tue Sep 25 18:58:36 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source? In-Reply-To: <3BB117D5.2416DFA7@tiac.net> Message-ID: They look like 14 inch to me. The model 44B. On Tue, 25 Sep 2001, Bob Shannon wrote: > 14 inch, or the smaller 8 inch drives? > > "Merle K. Peirce" wrote: > > > We just manhandled our Keronix upstairs into the mill and have started > > working on it. It is in rough shape but largely intact except for a > > gaping hole underneath the cpu and above the Diablo drive. Some of the > > cards were marked, and these were restored to the cage. The cooling > > system runs fine, but cpu power is out. There is a Newport tape > > controller card, does anyone know anything about these? Any thoughts > > about a the drive? Some card cages at the back suggest it might be > > rather short, something like a Dectape. > > > > Also, does anyone know anything about Xerox Diablo hard drives? > > > > M. K. Peirce > > > > Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. > > Shady Lea, Rhode Island > > > > "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." > > > > - Ovid > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 17:00:46 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: from "Kevan Heydon" at Sep 25, 1 02:56:14 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 961 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010925/b50a66c1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 17:21:35 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source? In-Reply-To: from "Merle K. Peirce" at Sep 25, 1 12:56:51 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 231 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010925/6b0e2a13/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 25 17:25:25 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <001b01c145f7$e499ae00$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 25, 1 01:25:53 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 830 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010925/1dfe5feb/attachment.ksh From zmerch at 30below.com Tue Sep 25 20:13:50 2001 From: zmerch at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: H&T 20(?) in TRS model 100 ??? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20010925170629.0079cdb0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010925205221.00ac39c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Joe may have mentioned these words: > I recently found a TR model 100 with an odd looking device plugged into >it. Abouty half of the access door on the bach is cut away in it and there >is a 20 pin ribbon cable header inside the cut out. Stamped in the header >is "H&T 20". I don't know if that's the name of just the head4er or the >entire assemble. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that this is just the name of the connector. But something is tickling at my brain........ > I removed the cover plate and inside is a small PC card >with the header and three SSI ICs (74HC245, 74HC02 amd a 74HC244). This is sounding even more familiar... Is anything printed or silkscreened on the circuit board itself? > The whole thing fits inside the original opening (so you don't have to > remove the back case to install or remove it) and it plugs into the 28 > pin LSI IC socket. Does anyone know what this is? Erm... don't you mean 40-pin socket? That 40-pinner is the expansion bus where most (all?) of the CPU signals are available, and would be the most logical place for a unidirectional 8-bit buffer, a bi-directional 8-buffer & a Quad 2-input NOR gate... Anything 24 or 28-pin is prolly a ROM or RAM socket, and you'd not see these chips used there... > Hint: It will ber looking fore a home at this weekend's computer junkfest >in Orlando. Now for the prize, if it's what I think it is. If *anyone* out there is a Model 100/102/200 fan, you'll want to definitely save this from the dumpster... If it indeed plugs into the 40-pin expansion bus, there's only one thing I've seen that matches this description: A "Chipmunk" floppy drive interface. This is (IIRC) a 360K SSDD floppy drive designed for (primarily) the Model 'T' scene. These drives are quite rare -- I have one. I've never been able to get it running, tho: I have a Model 200, and the expansion interface is a 40pin dual-row header -- not the 40-pin DIP socket. Now that I've been reminded of this, mebbe my next PCboard building project will be a Model 200 to Model 100 interface converter, so I could finally hook it up. I dunno if a regular 720K drive will work for these -- yer best bet is to post the question at the email address: m100@list.30below.com. That's the Model 100/200/102/NEC8201/(anything that's a Kyocera OEM laptop) mailing list that I run. It currently has around 160+ members, including the most honorable & knowledgeable Richard Hanson who *still* runs "Club 100" -- dedicated to providing service & support for all Model 'T's since 1983. Anything you need for a Model 'T' if it can be found, he can find it. Tell him "Merch" sent ya. Meanwhile, if I remember (read: doubtful, but you just never know) I'll pop the lid on my chipmunk drive & see if it has any special I/F boards... If you get no takers for the board after the "junkfest" just lemme know & I'll gladly give you something for it & shipping. I'm getting rid of a lot of my computers shortly (no time to play with them all, and I may be moving to a new smaller home, so I won't have the storage room... :-( ) but I still plan on rescuing anything Tandy laptop based (well, the 100/102/200/600, anyway. IBM compatibles never did excite me...). Anywho, I hope this helps! Roger "Merch" Merchberger From sulement at sisp.net Tue Sep 25 20:21:27 2001 From: sulement at sisp.net (Jeff Garrison) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? Message-ID: <003e01c14629$922b4fc0$1027d8c0@packardl> -----Original Message----- From: Mike Kenzie To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Monday, September 24, 2001 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Apple II 800K Diskettes? >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Betz" >To: >Sent: Monday, September 24, 2001 8:25 PM >Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? > > >> I just acquired an Apple IIgs (thanks Rich!) and am anxious to try >it out. I >> have downloaded the system software from the Apple site but an >unsure how to >> go about making 800K disks for use on the IIgs as none of my local >computer >> stores stock 800K floppies. Is it possible to cover over the hole >that tells >> the drive that it is a HD disk and format it as an 800K disk? Will >the 800K >> drive on the IIgs be able to read it? Or do I have to find a source >for real >> 800K media? > >I have a lead on another IIgs. It should be available as soon as the >owner finished copying the files from it. >I also have a spare IIsi. > > > >Collector of Vintage Computers (www.ncf.ca/~ba600) New 800k disks are available from the US in Harbor City California. My friend Ed Walters at Athana.com has them for sale. Tell him Jeff sent you. He thought so much of getting the format right that he bought a Classic II from me to test them on to be sure they'd work properly. Jeff From rigdonj at intellistar.net Tue Sep 25 21:26:40 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: H&T 20(?) in TRS model 100 ??? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20010925205221.00ac39c8@mail.30below.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20010925170629.0079cdb0@mailhost.intellistar.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010925222640.0079de70@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 09:13 PM 9/25/01 -0400, you wrote: >Rumor has it that Joe may have mentioned these words: >> I recently found a TR model 100 with an odd looking device plugged into >>it. Abouty half of the access door on the bach is cut away in it and there >>is a 20 pin ribbon cable header inside the cut out. Stamped in the header >>is "H&T 20". I don't know if that's the name of just the head4er or the >>entire assemble. > >I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that this is just the name of the connector. >But something is tickling at my brain........ > >> I removed the cover plate and inside is a small PC card >>with the header and three SSI ICs (74HC245, 74HC02 amd a 74HC244). > >This is sounding even more familiar... Is anything printed or silkscreened >on the circuit board itself? Yes, It's marked "Holmes" in the top RH corner. There's no other markings except U1, P1, etc. Does that help? > >> The whole thing fits inside the original opening (so you don't have to >> remove the back case to install or remove it) and it plugs into the 28 >> pin LSI IC socket. Does anyone know what this is? > >Erm... don't you mean 40-pin socket? That 40-pinner is the expansion bus >where most (all?) of the CPU signals are available, You're right. It is a 40 pin socket. I just wanted to see if you guys were paying attention :-) and would be the most >logical place for a unidirectional 8-bit buffer, a bi-directional 8-buffer >& a Quad 2-input NOR gate... Anything 24 or 28-pin is prolly a ROM or RAM >socket, and you'd not see these chips used there... > >> Hint: It will ber looking fore a home at this weekend's computer junkfest >>in Orlando. > >Now for the prize, if it's what I think it is. If *anyone* out there is a >Model 100/102/200 fan, you'll want to definitely save this from the >dumpster... If it indeed plugs into the 40-pin expansion bus, there's only >one thing I've seen that matches this description: A "Chipmunk" floppy >drive interface. This is (IIRC) a 360K SSDD floppy drive designed for >(primarily) the Model 'T' scene. These drives are quite rare -- I have one. >I've never been able to get it running, tho: I have a Model 200, and the >expansion interface is a 40pin dual-row header -- not the 40-pin DIP >socket. If you think that this is what it's for, can you describe the drive? I'll go back and look for it. Now that I've been reminded of this, mebbe my next PCboard building >project will be a Model 200 to Model 100 interface converter, so I could >finally hook it up. I dunno if a regular 720K drive will work for these -- >yer best bet is to post the question at the email address: >m100@list.30below.com. > > That's the Model 100/200/102/NEC8201/(anything that's a >Kyocera OEM laptop) mailing list that I run. It currently has around 160+ >members, including the most honorable & knowledgeable Richard Hanson who >*still* runs "Club 100" -- dedicated to providing service & support for all >Model 'T's since 1983. Anything you need for a Model 'T' if it can be >found, he can find it. Tell him "Merch" sent ya. > > >Meanwhile, if I remember (read: doubtful, but you just never know) I'll pop >the lid on my chipmunk drive & see if it has any special I/F boards... > >If you get no takers for the board after the "junkfest" just lemme know & >I'll gladly give you something for it & shipping. I'm getting rid of a lot >of my computers shortly (no time to play with them all, and I may be moving >to a new smaller home, so I won't have the storage room... :-( ) but I >still plan on rescuing anything Tandy laptop based (well, the >100/102/200/600, anyway. IBM compatibles never did excite me...). > >Anywho, I hope this helps! >Roger "Merch" Merchberger Thanks Roger. Joe > > From tbilby at rave.com Tue Sep 25 22:54:02 2001 From: tbilby at rave.com (Tad Bilby) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: recent acquisitions for the House of VAX References: <200109091734.f89HYGN22368@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <3BB1515A.C92F2B66@rave.com> Thanks for your quick response! I purchased a copy of: OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V7.1-2 It came with two CD's for the OS and 1 Firmware Update CD V5.3 I had already upgraded the firware to V7.0-9 from Compaq's website. I successfully expunged RedHat 5.2 and NT 4.0 and loaded VMS >>> boot dka400 Unfortunaltey the seller wanted a little more than I was willing to spend for the Layered Products. I quote: 1. Package 1.$75.00 includes: > > 1.OpenVMS/Alpha 7.1-2 (2CDs) > > 2.Alpha Firmware Update V5.3 (1 CD) > > 2. Package 2$75.00 includes: > > 1.OpenVMS/Alpha Software Product Library Dec 97 (10 CDs) > > 2.Digital NAS V8.1 Alpha (2 CDs) > > 3.OpenVMS Internet Product Suite Version 1.1 (1 CD) > > 4.OpenVMS Internet Product Suite Version 1.2 (1 CD) > > 5.Digital Pathworks32 V 7.0A (1 CD) > > 6.Digital Pathworks32 V 7.0A Documentation (1 CD) > > 7.Digital OpenVMS Management Tools V2.1 for Windows NT (1 CD) > > 8.Digital NAS V8.1 for OpenVMS/Alpha Documentation (1 CD) > > 9.Open VMS Alpha Online Documentation Library Dec 97 (2 CDs) My plan is to get VMS "freeware" off the net and burn to CDR. Unfortunately I don't know the format of VMS CD's. On a side note a small list of the commands I used to use to support a (large) auto supplier in the greater Detroit area. set default [-] -cd.. set def [dir] -cd \dir edit -edit show default -cd dir *% -dir *.* directory/full -dir/s *.* type/page -cat copy -cp rename -mv set file/prot -chmod set file/owner -chown delete foobar; -delete delete *.*;* -del *.* create /dir [.subdir] -md help -man page type /page nL: -cls monitor disk monitor process/topcpu show network show devices set os_type nt (at SRM) ARC (at SRM) show dev d (at SRM) boot dka400 (at SRM) shutdown (at dcl prompt) + p = stop + a (can cont) b -flags 0,1 (at SRM) or b -flags e,1 (at SRM) mount sh sys tools set priv tools mcr authorize sys modify sh dev d sh u/f @add_user stop /id=process # sh que/all quename stop /que/reset quename start /que quename insert= "ctrl + a" thanks again- Tad "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >Hello- > >I have been pursuuing the OpenVMS license and media for > >about 6 months with no success. > >i.e. > >http://www.openvms.compaq.com/openvms/freeware/ > >http://www.montagar.com/dfwlug/openvms-faq.html > >I have an AlphaStation 200/233 that I would like to install > >OpenVMS to. > >Do you have any ideas on how I get a copy through legal > >or hobbiest channels? > > As long as you've got an Encompass membership you should be able to get the > licenses without any trouble. As for the Media, you're probably ahead to > just get it off of eBay. It will cost a little (to a lot) more than the > Hobbyist CD from Montagar, but you can get a ConDist with all the layered > products. > > The other solution would be to call up Compaq and buy the licenses and > media, but that would be a few thousand by the time you got done. > > Zane > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Tue Sep 25 23:41:52 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <20010926044337.KRWQ28387.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote: > The only other issues are 'do you enjoy assembling kits'. And 'how much > enjoyment would you get out of assembiing the kit, compared to other uses > of the money' > > In other words, if it took me a couple of days to assemble the kit and I > enjoyed all of it (that would not be the case with a ZX81 kit, but it > would be the case with some of the Heathkits I've read the manuals for) > then $70 is pretty cheap entertainment ;-) Why would you not enjoy assembling and using a ZX81 kit? Glen 0/0 From glinder at ews.uiuc.edu Wed Sep 26 00:32:36 2001 From: glinder at ews.uiuc.edu (Greg Linder) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: 3b1 taken.. In-Reply-To: <001b01c14570$6bfbc3c0$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> Message-ID: Thanks to all who posted, the 3b1 has gone away with Richard Schauer. If I ever find another one, I'll be sure to stick it up here, too.. Greg Linder glinder@uiuc.edu From mrbill at mrbill.net Wed Sep 26 01:08:57 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: DEC Licensing Fun In-Reply-To: <200109251921.f8PJLfR02361@narnia.int.dittman.net> References: <200109251921.f8PJLfR02361@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <20010926010857.S2460@mrbill.net> On Tue, Sep 25, 2001 at 02:21:41PM -0500, Eric Dittman wrote: > Someone emailed me doubting license generators exist outside of DEC, > so here's one you can verify: I *know* they do - have a friend who generates his own PAKs, but wont share the program he uses to do it. 8-) Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com Wed Sep 26 02:10:18 2001 From: Antonio.Carlini at riverstonenet.com (Carlini, Antonio) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? Message-ID: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066154@exc-reo1> > They are not cheap, but they are not too expensive either, and often > they're the only source for the manuals. Their CDROM compilations are 25UKP or so each. A single manual runs to 10-15UKP (typically). So if you make reasonable use of their service, it may well pay off to find some way of reading PDFs :-) Antonio From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 26 02:15:57 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? References: Message-ID: <000701c1465b$1680e9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, if enjoyment was an objective of the one originally posting this question, it wasn't apparent from his remarks. Your point about the entertainment value of soldering up the kit and subsequently knowing it's been done right is certainly valid. $70 isn't a lot to pay for an afternoon's entertainment. However, if, under slightly different circumstances and priorities, one wants to USE the finished product and has little/no interest in burning one's fingers, it's ceratinly a different question, isn't it? Under those circumstances, building up the kit might, in fact add to the cost in that one has to buy equipment, materials, burn ointment, whiskey, MAALOX, and prune juice. Under those conditions, I'd be inclined to buy an already-built-and-working one for $30 or so just to see how I like it, and, if I don't, get rid of them both. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2001 4:25 PM Subject: Re: Keep or assemble??? > > > > I think someone pointed out weeks ago that the working units bring a lot less > > money on the open market (a.k.a. eBay) than complete but unassembled kits. > > > > To me, it makes sense to take the $100 for the unassembled kit and buy an > > assembled unit for $30 as previous posts suggest they cost, if you really want > > The only other issues are 'do you enjoy assembling kits'. And 'how much > enjoyment would you get out of assembiing the kit, compared to other uses > of the money' > > In other words, if it took me a couple of days to assemble the kit and I > enjoyed all of it (that would not be the case with a ZX81 kit, but it > would be the case with some of the Heathkits I've read the manuals for) > then $70 is pretty cheap entertainment ;-) > > And of course, if I've built it myself, I know it's been built correctly.... > > -tony > > From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Wed Sep 26 05:55:00 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722578C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > Why do people insist on calling them 720 K disks? There is no such stupid > invention. They're 1 MB disks, not 720 K, not 800 K, not 880 K. > Oh, and there are no 1.44 MB disks either. True, they're not 1.44, they're 2MB... you can actually get 1.8MB on on if you plow out the wind breaks... I've had some luck with 1.68 and 1.72 formatting, but the 1.8 is pretty chancy... -dq From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 26 07:27:33 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926072246.0226d700@pc> I've got a lead on a full and working electron microscope. It's on-topic because it's old and has some sort of computerized digitizing unit. :-) The console is 41" x 43" and weighs about 300 pounds. The column is 33" x 33" and weighs about 1,200 pounds. It'll suck at least 20 amps so I may need to wire its own circuit. It's wrapped and probably palleted at the pickup location. They have a hand-fork to roll it to the loading dock. I've lined up a big Diesel stake (flat-bed) truck. It'll be about a 2-3 hour drive. We've got straps, boards, tarps. I'm most concerned about getting it *off* the truck and into my office or home basement. Any other thoughts from the group? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 26 08:35:32 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926083038.021ecd10@pc> I wrote: >I've got a lead on a full and working electron microscope. If anyone else is looking, watch : http://www.msa.microscopy.com/SurplusEquipment/SurplusListings.html For example, there's an Amray 1000A SEM and a PGT EDS (digitizing system) with Sun workstation free for pickup, probably in Marlborough, MA. (That's not the system I'm grabbing.) Also, I saw someone mention a pair of (circa 1973) Interdata Model 7/16 minicomputers for sale on eBay, as part of a lot they were dumping from their SEM facility. - John From jss at subatomix.com Wed Sep 26 08:46:46 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926072246.0226d700@pc> Message-ID: <20010926083305.S92518-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, John Foust wrote: > I've got a lead on a full and working electron microscope. The console > is 41" x 43" and weighs about 300 pounds. The column is 33" x 33" and > weighs about 1,200 pounds. I'm most concerned about getting it *off* > the truck and into my office or home basement. Any other thoughts from > the group? There are places from which you can rent forklifts, etc. One such place is is http://www.hertzequip.com/ (the car people). I'm sure there are others; check your local yellow pages. Whether or not the equipment has wheels makes a good deal of difference in deciding what equipment you need. Also, consider the environment into which it is going. Stairs will be *very* difficult to conquer. Also, never underestimate the power of thresholds and very small steps, or they will be your undoing. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From dbetz at xlisper.mv.com Wed Sep 26 08:59:30 2001 From: dbetz at xlisper.mv.com (David Betz) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200109261400.f8QE0QT20683@chmls16.mediaone.net> > Yes, I am pretty sure the Mac disk controller can write the 800K //gs > format (presumably it's similar to the Mac 800K format). I've never > tried > it,though, so I can't be absolutely sure. It turns out I had one or two 800k disks from the days of my Macintosh Plus. I tried writing IIgs software on one using my Quadra 650 and was able to use it on my IIgs. I guess I'll just have to order more DSDD 720k disks rather than trying to mess around with HD disks with their holes covered. Thanks to everyone who responded to my question! David From gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org Wed Sep 26 09:49:06 2001 From: gunther at aurora.regenstrief.org (Gunther Schadow) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926072246.0226d700@pc> Message-ID: <3BB1EAE2.2020808@aurora.regenstrief.org> This is hilarious. Congratulations. What will you be investigating with your electron microscope? Be sure to also take some sort of microtome; otherwise you won't be able to use the microscope. If I had been offered this, I would probably have passed it (may be on to some museum.) In my opinion, for a hobbyist, an electron raster microscope is much more exciting, and smaller too. -Gunther John Foust wrote: > I've got a lead on a full and working electron microscope. > It's on-topic because it's old and has some sort of > computerized digitizing unit. :-) > > The console is 41" x 43" and weighs about 300 pounds. > The column is 33" x 33" and weighs about 1,200 pounds. > It'll suck at least 20 amps so I may need to wire > its own circuit. > > It's wrapped and probably palleted at the pickup location. > They have a hand-fork to roll it to the loading dock. > > I've lined up a big Diesel stake (flat-bed) truck. > It'll be about a 2-3 hour drive. We've got straps, > boards, tarps. I'm most concerned about getting it > *off* the truck and into my office or home basement. > Any other thoughts from the group? > > - John > > -- Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D. gschadow@regenstrief.org Medical Information Scientist Regenstrief Institute for Health Care Adjunct Assistant Professor Indiana University School of Medicine tel:1(317)630-7960 http://aurora.regenstrief.org From RCini at congressfinancial.com Wed Sep 26 09:50:34 2001 From: RCini at congressfinancial.com (Cini, Richard) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Adventure for 8080 Message-ID: <497A9E0467D2D2119B760090271EB8E5879E3D@MAIL10> Hello, all: I want to do something fun with the Altair Emulator. Does anyone have a binary for Adventure? I don't yet have the ability to complie programs in the emulator (because of problems booting CP/M), so I could use a memory image. If someone has one, please contact me off line. Thanks. Rich ========================== Richard A. Cini, Jr. Congress Financial Corporation 1133 Avenue of the Americas 30th Floor New York, NY 10036 (212) 545-4402 (212) 840-6259 (facsimile) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 26 10:15:27 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment In-Reply-To: <3BB1EAE2.2020808@aurora.regenstrief.org> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926072246.0226d700@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926100927.021f4870@pc> At 09:49 AM 9/26/01 -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote: >This is hilarious. Congratulations. What will you be >investigating with your electron microscope? Be sure >to also take some sort of microtome; otherwise you won't >be able to use the microscope. If I had been offered this, >I would probably have passed it (may be on to some >museum.) In my opinion, for a hobbyist, an electron >raster microscope is much more exciting, and smaller >too. I already have an old AO 820-style microtome for my Leitz, and a Reichert Ultracut ultramicrotome that's missing a few bits. What I really need is a sputterer. What will I do with it? "Just look at stuff." I'd like to scan old chip silicon, for example, beyond biological targets. I've been tinkering with a web site at http://www.threedee.com/jmosn/microscopes/index.html if you want to see them. Lots of nice German optics. :-) From a classic computing sense, I'm also eager to see what's inside the PGT System 4 digitizing computer. I may have to disassemble a wall to get it into the basement, though. I think that's one of the signs that your hobby Has Gone Too Far. :-) - John From jss at subatomix.com Wed Sep 26 10:46:15 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926083038.021ecd10@pc> Message-ID: <20010926100740.U92618-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, John Foust wrote: > Also, I saw someone mention a pair of (circa 1973) Interdata Model > 7/16 minicomputers for sale on eBay, I saw those too. Unfortunately, the opening bid is $999. :-( -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 26 10:52:14 2001 From: xds_sigma7 at hotmail.com (Will Jennings) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual Message-ID: The CPU uses DTL. I ought to know, I have 2 of those machines. No, Bell Labs ported UNIX to the 8/32, the follow-on machine to the 7/32. It was the subject of a paper on porting UNIX to other architectures. Will J _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From jhellige at earthlink.net Wed Sep 26 22:17:28 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722578C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722578C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <01Sep26.121231edt.119149@gateway.mediacen.navy.mil> >True, they're not 1.44, they're 2MB... you can actually get 1.8MB on >on if you plow out the wind breaks... I've had some luck with 1.68 >and 1.72 formatting, but the 1.8 is pretty chancy... The Amiga HD format gets 1.76MB on a disk. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From dittman at dittman.net Wed Sep 26 11:06:53 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: DEC Licensing Fun In-Reply-To: <20010926010857.S2460@mrbill.net> from "Bill Bradford" at Sep 26, 2001 01:08:57 AM Message-ID: <200109261606.f8QG6rL04895@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Someone emailed me doubting license generators exist outside of DEC, > > so here's one you can verify: > > I *know* they do - have a friend who generates his own PAKs, but wont > share the program he uses to do it. 8-) You weren't the one that expressed a doubt, Bill. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Sep 26 11:34:43 2001 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment In-Reply-To: <20010926100740.U92618-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> References: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926083038.021ecd10@pc> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926113334.00d4ae60@pc> At 10:46 AM 9/26/01 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, John Foust wrote: > >> Also, I saw someone mention a pair of (circa 1973) Interdata Model >> 7/16 minicomputers for sale on eBay, > >I saw those too. Unfortunately, the opening bid is $999. :-( Yes, but as soon as the auction ends, you can contact the seller, who is listed on that MSA surplus page. - John From pechter at ureach.com Wed Sep 26 12:11:05 2001 From: pechter at ureach.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Interdata 7/32 C maintenance manual Message-ID: <200109261711.NAA23147@stage21.ureach.com> The University of Wollongong in Australia did the 7/32 port IIRC at about the same time. Bill -- Bill Pechter Systems Administrator uReach Technologies 732-335-5432 (Work) 877-661-2126 (Fax) ---- On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, Will Jennings (xds_sigma7@hotmail.com) wrote: > The CPU uses DTL. I ought to know, I have 2 of those machines. No, Bell > Labs > ported UNIX to the 8/32, the follow-on machine to the 7/32. It was the > subject of a paper on porting UNIX to other architectures. > > Will J > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 26 12:30:40 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question Message-ID: OK, I'm thinking of doing a wierd mod on a VT100, just how much room is inside one of them? I need room for a 7 1/2" x 9" x 2 1/2" board (the 2 1/2" is thanks to the heatsink and RAM), and would also like to be able to fit in a smallish 250W PS (3 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 6"), and a 3 1/2" HD. I've got 2 or 3 VT100's, but they're so buried it's going to take a lot of work to get to them so was hoping to get an idea if there is room first. Basically I'm trying to build a PDP-10 into a VT100 by using an Intel D810EMO MicroATX board. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From DHaywood at larimer.cccoes.edu Wed Sep 26 12:44:40 2001 From: DHaywood at larimer.cccoes.edu (Haywood, Don) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: PolyMorphic Computers Message-ID: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> I happened upon an older message/discussion about the PolyMorphic systems. I have a lot of that stuff - including many of the user's groups newsletters/original software/manuals, etc. I built mine in 1975 or 1976. It still works but I never used the original toaster case. You indicated that you could use some of the source code. Seems to me that I have some of that in machine/assy language. If you'd like to chat - e-mail me. Don haywood From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 26 14:23:45 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> Message-ID: <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and the rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find the FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, hence believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the thing in '81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. Let me know if you want the FOCAL interpreter source, and I'll email it to you. Dick From mikeford at socal.rr.com Wed Sep 26 14:36:16 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: SoCal DIGITAL/Ultrix32 stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917160200.026e4bf0@kerberos.davies.net.au> from "Huw Davies" at Sep 17, 1 04:06:23 pm Message-ID: A couple boxes of DIGITAL stuff showed up in my surplus scrounging, and so far I left it behind and suspect the bulk of it will be OK for maybe a week, maybe less. Box1 is full of grey binders with Ultrix32 and related info, maybe a dozen to 20 3" binders of stuff. Box 2 is full of cables, white right angle SCSI to SCSI C50 looking things, and some bundle of snakes that could be DB25 with about half a dozen pins in some headshells. A couple maybe 20 foot ribbon cables with what sort of looks like floppy connectors on the ends. You are going to have to really want this if you aren't local to Orange, CA and can pick it up. Email me directly if interested. From allain at panix.com Wed Sep 26 16:04:47 2001 From: allain at panix.com (John Allain) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Eldon Hall's book "Journey to the Moon" References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010906001119.02ccbe10@enigma> Message-ID: <001301c146ce$e0510d20$21fe54a6@ibm23xhr06> From: Dan Veeneman ; Thurs, Sept 6, 2001 > > Unfortunately I missed VCF East, but does anyone who > attended have a lead on where I could purchase a signed > copy of Eldon Hall's book "Journey to the Moon"? Oops, just found the book now. BTW It is expensive but worth it, even if you like Only computers or only spaceflight. (but both? ) Don't remember you getting a reply-post, so: Publisher: American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics Date: 1996 ISBN: 1-56347-185-X URLS: http://www.aiaa.org/store/storeproductdetail.cfm?ID=358 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/156347185X/qid=1001538037/sr=1-1/ref= sr_1_2_1/103-8517602-8440612 John A. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 14:25:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <000701c1465b$1680e9c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 26, 1 01:15:57 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1025 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010926/4477900c/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 14:19:28 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <20010926044337.KRWQ28387.imf06bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 26, 1 00:41:52 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 886 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010926/50303908/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 26 14:22:37 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Source for technical manuals? In-Reply-To: <3820E2042B6ED5118DC200D0B78EDC47066154@exc-reo1> from "Carlini, Antonio" at Sep 26, 1 00:10:18 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 776 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010926/a24c717c/attachment.ksh From tony.eros at machm.org Wed Sep 26 17:01:16 2001 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Tony Eros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:05 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20010926180049.023d3638@mail.njd.concentric.com> Dick - I'd like a copy. -- Tony At 01:23 PM 9/26/2001 -0600, you wrote: >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and the >rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find the >FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, hence >believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the thing in >'81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. > >Let me know if you want the FOCAL interpreter source, and I'll email it to >you. > >Dick From vance at ikickass.org Wed Sep 26 17:42:24 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: DECserver 700-16 Pinout Message-ID: Anyone know where I can find the pinout (as well as reference info) on the DECserver 700-16 terminal server? Thanks. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 26 17:50:59 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code Message-ID: <002a01c146dd$be14de80$c9f09a8d@ajp166> I'd be interested in both source and machine readable. It would be fun to run FOCAL again. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:59 PM Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and the >rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find the >FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, hence >believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the thing in >'81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. > >Let me know if you want the FOCAL interpreter source, and I'll email it to you. > >Dick > > From dec.parts at verizon.net Wed Sep 26 18:53:31 2001 From: dec.parts at verizon.net (Info from LSI) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Available Qbus SCSI Controllers Message-ID: <3BB26A7B.5DE9@verizon.net> We know that there are a bunch of Qbus system owners that would like a SCSI controller for their systems, so ... The following Qbus SCSI Controllers are available for sale or trade. Sale prices are at lower end commercial market, but if you're "just a hobbyist", the trade option might be your preferred method. If you wish to propose a trade, first ensure you're committed to following through. Second, contact one of the major dealers and find out from them what they'll give you "cash price" for your parts. Third, ask them what their price is for the SCSI controller you're interested in. If the "cash price" they offer you for your parts is lower than the SCSI controller's price, we won't be able to approve the proposal. Also, we can only approve a proposal for parts that we don't already have plenty of, and that we can already find a buyer for in advance. Pictures of these controllers can be seen at ... SCSI Disk and Tape - Aviv_QSA_50-1276_Rev_F1 http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/Aviv_QSA_50-1276_Rev_F1_.jpg SCSI Disk - Dilog_SQ706_Rev_C http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/Dilog_SQ706_Rev_C_.jpg SCSI Disk - Dilog_SQ706A_Rev_D http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/Dilog_SQ706A_Rev_D_.jpg SCSI Disk - Emulex_UC07_10401-01_Rev_F - Two Available http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/Emulex_UC07_10401-01_Rev_F_.jpg SCSI Tape - MTI_QTS25_Rev_D http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/dec/MTI_QTS25_Rev_D_.jpg The list of parts already in stock ... http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2mj6m/web/home.htm dec.parts@verizon.net From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 26 19:07:41 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <5.0.2.1.0.20010926180049.023d3638@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <003c01c146e8$6ce52c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Don't forget that YOU have, so far, got the only existing copy of the manual for FOCAL65. Those who what a copy will probably contact YOU to get a copy. (See why I was so ready to part with it?) Unfortunately, the source file I have differs from the one of which you have an assembler listing in that it lacks the complete manual. When I find that, I'll make it available via the 'net. I'll forward you the source file under separate cover. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Eros" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > Dick - > > I'd like a copy. > > -- Tony > > At 01:23 PM 9/26/2001 -0600, you wrote: > >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 > >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and the > >rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find the > >FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, hence > >believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the thing in > >'81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. > > > >Let me know if you want the FOCAL interpreter source, and I'll email it to > >you. > > > >Dick > > From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 26 19:11:35 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <002a01c146dd$be14de80$c9f09a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <004201c146e8$f86c7920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'll happily give you a copy of the source, (to be forwarded under separate cover) and, if you like, I'll even give you a copy of the PAL65 Assembler binary and source. Unfortunately, they run under a locally written OS for the APPLE][, called APEX, and you may have a problem using the sources without a good bit of whittling. Of course, I've also got the sources for the OS, but it's written in a locally generated HLL, called XPL0, (yes, that's a zero, not an 'O;') and that's not mine to give away without first checking with the owner. I doubt it will be a problem, though. I just want to respect the rights of the authors. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 4:50 PM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > I'd be interested in both source and machine readable. It would be fun > to run FOCAL > again. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 5:59 PM > Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > > > >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in > 6502 > >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable > and the > >rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find > the > >FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, > hence > >believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the > thing in > >'81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. > > > >Let me know if you want the FOCAL interpreter source, and I'll email it > to you. > > > >Dick > > > > > > From mark_k at totalise.co.uk Wed Sep 26 21:34:10 2001 From: mark_k at totalise.co.uk (Mark) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Archiving floppies? Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, 24 Sep 2001 Jeff Hellige wrote: > An idea I've had that I may try is using my GVP PC286 board > for my Amiga 500. Oddly, it's the only machine I have capable of > running MS-DOS that also has both 3.5 and 5.25" floppy drives as well > as a hard disk. As I've found in the past, the hard disk is > essential when trying to make disk images. I've never actually tried > using the A1020 5.25" drive as a PC floppy from the PC286 though, but > the manual suggests it should work fine. With the 16mhz '286 > onboard, the PC286 is also faster than the odd XT class machines I > have as well. For those not familiar with it, the GVP PC286 is an > 80286 cpu with 512k RAM that plugs into the internal expansion slot > of the GVP Series II hard disk controllers for the Amiga 500. You don't need the PC286 board or any kind of PC emulator to make disk images of PC floppies using an Amiga. The exact usage will depend on your setup, but you could use commands like Copy DEV:PC0 RAM:diskimage.bin with the free Dev-Handler package installed. Plus, you can make images of protected PC floppies using a program such as MFMWarp (not high density ones until someone updates the program). Source for MFMWarp is available, albeit in 68000 assembly language, so the file format is known/documented to that extent. 5.25" 360K disks are also no problem. By the way, you can image Apple II floppies with an Amiga and A1020 drive. C64 disks too, if you adjust the speed of your A1020; I recommend using a second A1020 for that purpose. Much faster than using a real 1541 drive connected via the serial or parallel port. It should be possible to archive C64 and Apple II disks at the GCR level using an A1020 drive, but as far as I no nobody has written software to do that. There is a program which can read whole (raw) tracks however, which might be useful for analysing copy-protection. Using an 80-track 5.25" drive, it might even be possible to archive C64 etc. disks which use "half-track" protection, but I don't know the details of those schemes so can't say for sure. (The A1020 is a 40-track drive. It should be easy to attach an 80-track 5.25" drive; just use the interface PCB from a spare external Amiga 3.5" drive.) -- Mark From jss at subatomix.com Wed Sep 26 21:16:59 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Moving heavy equipment In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010926113334.00d4ae60@pc> Message-ID: <20010926210427.Y93276-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, John Foust wrote: > At 10:46 AM 9/26/01 -0500, you wrote: > > > On Wed, 26 Sep 2001, John Foust wrote: > > > > > Also, I saw someone mention a pair of (circa 1973) Interdata Model > > > 7/16 minicomputers for sale on eBay, > > > > I saw those too. Unfortunately, the opening bid is $999. :-( > > Yes, but as soon as the auction ends, you can contact the seller, who > is listed on that MSA surplus page. It's too bad that I can't afford to acquire them. Else, that's exactly what I'd do! -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Wed Sep 26 21:30:02 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? Message-ID: <20010927023144.LOIY4549.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote > Sorry, I wasn't clear. I would enjoy assembling the ZX81 kit They are fun and easy ;>) > (using it is > another matter -- home micros running BASIC are not the most interesting > machines for me) So don't run BASIC. There are some fair assemblers out there for this box and a FORTH, too. Hook up a decent keyboard, fix the display, and have fun. Since you are a hacker I'd think this would be a good toy for you ;>) Not to brag, but my souped-up ZX81 outperforms my Kaypro 10. (Why *is* Kaypro hard- and floppy- disk i/o so slow?) > but I doubt it would take me a couple of days to do so. > More like a couple of hours. Takes me about 3 ;>) One convenient thing about building a kit as opposed to buying an already-built computer is that you can modify it as you build it. For example, when I build a ZX81 I know I won't be using the RF modulator or the keyboard connectors so I can leave them out. If I start with a pre-built unit I have to work around the existing parts. > I suspect that if I ever got an unassembled kit of _anything_ my first > reaction would be to assemble it, no matter how much 'value' it lost by > so doing. I'm with you -- I want to make the kit work! Glen 0/0 From fultoncmf at starband.net Wed Sep 26 21:34:40 2001 From: fultoncmf at starband.net (Carl M Fulton) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: DECserver 700-16 Pinout References: Message-ID: <006101c146fc$fa6af120$0700a8c0@bbs> Try http://www.dnpg.net/dr/npg/dsrvw-mn2.html Good luck Carl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Absurdly Obtuse" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 3:42 PM Subject: DECserver 700-16 Pinout > > > Anyone know where I can find the pinout (as well as reference info) on the > DECserver 700-16 terminal server? Thanks. > > Peace... Sridhar > From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Sep 26 22:34:57 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <004201c146e8$f86c7920$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BB25811.17505.CF1629@localhost> I'd be interested in copies of the APEX FOCAL. I have APEX on my Apple II. I tried to pick up the FOCAL for it long ago but the place where I picked up my APEX didn't have it and never got a copy in. On 26 Sep 2001, at 18:11, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'll happily give you a copy of the source, (to be forwarded under > separate cover) and, if you like, I'll even give you a copy of the > PAL65 Assembler binary and source. Unfortunately, they run under a > locally written OS for the APPLE][, called APEX, and you may have a > problem using the sources without a good bit of whittling. Of course, > I've also got the sources for the OS, but it's written in a locally > generated HLL, called XPL0, (yes, that's a zero, not an 'O;') and > that's not mine to give away without first checking with the owner. I > doubt it will be a problem, though. I just want to respect the rights > of the authors. > > Dick ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From edick at idcomm.com Wed Sep 26 23:33:23 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <5.0.2.1.0.20010926180049.023d3638@mail.njd.concentric.com> Message-ID: <001d01c1470d$8b0b3900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Have you figured out a good way to share the printed manual with those who might want it? I didn't have very good results with a scanner/OCR combo, though you may find it's easy enough to scan the thing and let folks download the scanned image. Let me know how you're handling this, plz. regards, Dick From dlw at trailingedge.com Wed Sep 26 23:43:28 2001 From: dlw at trailingedge.com (David Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <001d01c1470d$8b0b3900$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <3BB26820.7064.10DD0FD@localhost> Thanks for the FOCAL source Richard. I too would like to know when the manual is available. On 26 Sep 2001, at 22:33, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > Have you figured out a good way to share the printed manual with those > who might want it? I didn't have very good results with a scanner/OCR > combo, though you may find it's easy enough to scan the thing and let > folks download the scanned image. > > Let me know how you're handling this, plz. > > regards, > > Dick > > ----- "What is, is what?" "When the mind is free of any thought or judgement, then and only then can we know things as they are." David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw@trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com From dpeschel at eskimo.com Thu Sep 27 00:19:01 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com>; from edick@idcomm.com on Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:23:45PM -0600 References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20010926221901.A21779@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:23:45PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 > Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and the > rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find the > FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, hence > believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the thing in > '81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. I'm sure we would all enjoy hearing the history of this software (APEX, PAL65, XPL0, FOCAL, etc.) and of the people and computers involved. -- Derek From Robert.Stokes at vu.edu.au Thu Sep 27 01:52:14 2001 From: Robert.Stokes at vu.edu.au (Robert Stokes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars Message-ID: <3BB2CC9E.4BE67E10@vu.edu.au> I've still got a working HP25 that I keep going by fitting new AA NiCds into the HP battery drawer. Can't leave it on the charger too long or the batteries die. The programmable part no longer works, but. Cheers, Robert. -- _________________________________________________ Robert Stokes Scientific Officer School of Human Movement, Recreation & Performance Victoria University of Technology Ph 61 3 9688 4381 Fax 61 3 9688 4891 Robert.stokes@vu.edu.au From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 01:55:16 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010926221901.A21779@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <001501c14721$5d6cf880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, you're in luck, as Larry Fish, one of the founding members of the still barely surviving Denver Area 6502 Users' Group wrote a history in which he does, to some extent, tell the tale, naming names and spelling out events. That's accessible at www.6502group.org. It's not "up" at this moment, so I don't have the exact URL, but when the site's up, the history is readily available. The "group" lives on in that some of the guys still get together once a week, come hell or high water, at the Colorado School of Mines Computing Center, and BS about various things, though 6502's seldom get a mention unless I show up, which I do every few years. The group is more interested in PIC's and PC's these days, and the main hobby is Windows-bashing, since Windows doesn't tolerate the sort of hands-on use to which Micro users of old are accustomed. I'm trying to get file space made avaialble (there was initially a plan to provide one) on the group's web site, so I/we/they can put the rest of the 6502 group software out there where various interested parties can get at it. I also have (somewhere) manuals for the PAL65 assembler, FOCAL, a full-screen editor called Mr.Ed, and the XPL0 compiler, though Loren Blaney probably has more current information on that, since he's been maintaining it over the years. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Derek Peschel" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2001 11:19 PM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > On Wed, Sep 26, 2001 at 01:23:45PM -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 > > Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and the > > rest of us cringe, but that's what available. I've been unable to find the > > FOCAL manual, which I incorporated into my last assembly of the code, hence > > believe it's on a different diskette from which I last assembled the thing in > > '81-'82 or so, as a printer exercise, actually. > > I'm sure we would all enjoy hearing the history of this software (APEX, > PAL65, XPL0, FOCAL, etc.) and of the people and computers involved. > > -- Derek > > From vcf at vintage.org Thu Sep 27 02:04:02 2001 From: vcf at vintage.org (Vintage Computer Festival) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card Message-ID: I have a card with the only markings on it being Adaptive Peripherals. It's quite interesting. Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. It leads out to an external box with a centronics interface on it, a switch and LED, and two phono jacks. The switch in one direction seems to activate it, as when I turn on the computer with the switch in that position the LED lights and the system is frozen. The switch in the other position results in a normal boot. If I flip the switch while the system is on then it locks up. If I switch it back and then do a reset, the system resumes. Before I attached a monitor to it, it seemed to make the computer do something different. The normal "beep" when I turned the system on was replaced with a "boop". I finally hooked a monitor up but now the card does not seem to do anything. I hope I didn't fry it as when I was carrying it upstairs I plugged the dangling printer cable from the parallel card into the centronics interface in the external box to keep it from swinging around. When I first powered it on it was shorting something as the power supply was cycling on/off. I turned it off quickly and unplugged the cable, then turned it on to hear the "boop" sound. So it seemed to be doing something weird until I plugged the monitor in to see what the heck was going on. It's in slot 4, so I checked the memory area at $C400 but there is nothing there. It also has a two AAA batteries on the back which I've taken out. They don't seem to affect the operation. I'm going to put two fresh batteries on to see what different it makes. I'm thinking this was an alternate ROM card, maybe for development or cracking games, although it seems to elaborate for the latter. Any ideas? Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Sep 27 02:43:14 2001 From: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <001501c14721$5d6cf880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010926221901.A21779@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927174203.00b10a50@kerberos.davies.net.au> At 12:55 AM 27/09/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: >Well, you're in luck, as Larry Fish, one of the founding members of the still >barely surviving Denver Area 6502 Users' Group wrote a history in which he >does, >to some extent, tell the tale, naming names and spelling out events. That's >accessible at www.6502group.org. It's not "up" at this moment, so I don't >have >the exact URL, but when the site's up, the history is readily available. It's up now and the history can be found at http://6502group.org/HIST6502.HTM Some things in the history aren't quite right - a black PDP-10? Perhaps it was the special Stealth version :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au | "If God had wanted soccer played in the | air, the sky would be painted green" From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 03:11:51 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card In-Reply-To: ID this Apple ][ Card (Vintage Computer Festival) References: Message-ID: <15282.57159.877120.669122@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 27, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I > believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. Hmm...the 6116 is a 2Kx8 static RAM. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Sep 27 07:54:19 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card References: Message-ID: <3BB3217B.9E1A8BD0@mail.verizon.net> Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > I have a card with the only markings on it being Adaptive Peripherals. > It's quite interesting. > > Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I > believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. I pretty sure a 6116 is a RAM pin-compatible chip to a 2716 EPROM. I have a prototype board in the works (years now!) that has as part of the design the capability to handle both 2716 or 6116 chips fo the same sockets (four). Sorry I can't help you more with this board. Eric > > > It leads out to an external box with a centronics interface on it, a > switch and LED, and two phono jacks. The switch in one direction seems > to activate it, as when I turn on the computer with the switch in that > position the LED lights and the system is frozen. The switch in the other > position results in a normal boot. If I flip the switch while the system > is on then it locks up. If I switch it back and then do a reset, the > system resumes. > > Before I attached a monitor to it, it seemed to make the computer do > something different. The normal "beep" when I turned the system on was > replaced with a "boop". I finally hooked a monitor up but now the card > does not seem to do anything. I hope I didn't fry it as when I was > carrying it upstairs I plugged the dangling printer cable from the > parallel card into the centronics interface in the external box to keep it > from swinging around. When I first powered it on it was shorting > something as the power supply was cycling on/off. I turned it off > quickly and unplugged the cable, then turned it on to hear the "boop" > sound. So it seemed to be doing something weird until I plugged the > monitor in to see what the heck was going on. > > It's in slot 4, so I checked the memory area at $C400 but there is nothing > there. > > It also has a two AAA batteries on the back which I've taken out. They > don't seem to affect the operation. I'm going to put two fresh batteries > on to see what different it makes. > > I'm thinking this was an alternate ROM card, maybe for development or > cracking games, although it seems to elaborate for the latter. > > Any ideas? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Sep 27 07:56:19 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card References: <15282.57159.877120.669122@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BB321F3.AFF1F965@mail.verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 27, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I > > believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. > > Hmm...the 6116 is a 2Kx8 static RAM. > Additionally, aren't they pin-compatible with 2716s? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Thu Sep 27 08:20:53 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <001501c14721$5d6cf880$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from Richard Erlacher at "Sep 27, 1 00:55:16 am" Message-ID: <200109271320.GAA10196@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Well, you're in luck, as Larry Fish, one of the founding members of the still > barely surviving Denver Area 6502 Users' Group Did this Larry work at Commodore at all? There's a 'fish' sometimes credited on Commodore motherboard designs. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From west at tseinc.com Thu Sep 27 08:52:30 2001 From: west at tseinc.com (Jay West) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: teletypes & Z80 system Message-ID: <001301c1475b$a66f1ba0$d201a8c0@jay> Someone just queried me with the following equipment available..... Model 2 teletype with pasting tray Model 15 teletype with manual "Digital Group" Z-80 microcomputer system w/keyboard, monitor, and cassette tape driver storage system Could be a "good find" day today :) Jay West From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 09:01:30 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card References: Message-ID: <002601c1475c$e866d060$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The CDM6116's are CMOS RAMs. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vintage Computer Festival" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:04 AM Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card > > I have a card with the only markings on it being Adaptive Peripherals. > It's quite interesting. > > Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I > believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. > > It leads out to an external box with a centronics interface on it, a > switch and LED, and two phono jacks. The switch in one direction seems > to activate it, as when I turn on the computer with the switch in that > position the LED lights and the system is frozen. The switch in the other > position results in a normal boot. If I flip the switch while the system > is on then it locks up. If I switch it back and then do a reset, the > system resumes. > > Before I attached a monitor to it, it seemed to make the computer do > something different. The normal "beep" when I turned the system on was > replaced with a "boop". I finally hooked a monitor up but now the card > does not seem to do anything. I hope I didn't fry it as when I was > carrying it upstairs I plugged the dangling printer cable from the > parallel card into the centronics interface in the external box to keep it > from swinging around. When I first powered it on it was shorting > something as the power supply was cycling on/off. I turned it off > quickly and unplugged the cable, then turned it on to hear the "boop" > sound. So it seemed to be doing something weird until I plugged the > monitor in to see what the heck was going on. > > It's in slot 4, so I checked the memory area at $C400 but there is nothing > there. > > It also has a two AAA batteries on the back which I've taken out. They > don't seem to affect the operation. I'm going to put two fresh batteries > on to see what different it makes. > > I'm thinking this was an alternate ROM card, maybe for development or > cracking games, although it seems to elaborate for the latter. > > Any ideas? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 09:11:50 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010926221901.A21779@eskimo.eskimo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927174203.00b10a50@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <002c01c1475e$5a3671e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't remember what color the KA-10 was, but my recollections don't align exactly with what's written there either. However, the color of the KA-10 is not terribly significant. There's even a chance the reference may have been to the KL-10 installed in 1980. (?) It's not about the DEC hardware, after all. My recollection (and listings) seem to remember Peter Boyle's full screen editor as being called "Mr. Ed" but that's not terribly important either. Wayne Wall was in town last week and a group of us met with him for lunch, where he cursorily ran over that history. I suspect that there are numerous details that have been colored by one's recollection. I've been unabel to locate the considerable archive of 6502-group software which was once avaiable on the web and now has disappeared into obscurity. I suppose if someone had taken up the cudgel of maintaining it, it would be out there somewhere. At the moment, however, it looks as though the version of the FOCAL interpreter that I've been distributing is the only one that remains. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:43 AM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > At 12:55 AM 27/09/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >Well, you're in luck, as Larry Fish, one of the founding members of the still > >barely surviving Denver Area 6502 Users' Group wrote a history in which he > >does, > >to some extent, tell the tale, naming names and spelling out events. That's > >accessible at www.6502group.org. It's not "up" at this moment, so I don't > >have > >the exact URL, but when the site's up, the history is readily available. > > > It's up now and the history can be found at http://6502group.org/HIST6502.HTM > > Some things in the history aren't quite right - a black PDP-10? Perhaps it > was the special Stealth version :-) > > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 09:15:24 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars References: <3BB2CC9E.4BE67E10@vu.edu.au> Message-ID: <003e01c1475e$d9c2ba40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I quit using most of my other calculators and, today, use an HP 25C almost exclusively, though I have a '21 also. I didn't know those were collectibles. back in the '70's, I modified the battery holder so I could replace the batteries when they went bad. This was a common problem. The use of 1.5-volt batteries probably won't hurt anything if my own calculators are any indication, though I've usually replaced the NiCd types with others of the same sort. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Stokes" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 12:52 AM Subject: Re: Calc wars > I've still got a working HP25 that I keep going by fitting new AA NiCds > into the HP battery drawer. Can't leave it on the charger too long or > the batteries die. > The programmable part no longer works, but. > > Cheers, > Robert. > > -- > _________________________________________________ > Robert Stokes > Scientific Officer > School of Human Movement, Recreation & Performance > Victoria University of Technology > Ph 61 3 9688 4381 > Fax 61 3 9688 4891 > Robert.stokes@vu.edu.au > > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 09:52:13 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <200109271320.GAA10196@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <004a01c14763$fea75c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I don't remember any talk about Larry Fish and a Commodore of any sort. Nobody wanted to spend the money that was required for a PET, considering what it was. Larry's first 6502, IIRC, was JOLT, similar in some ways to a KIM-1, and most of his work prior to the Apple][ was on his Digital Group setup. Wayne Wall, Peter Boyle, and Larry Fish, among others, including Bob Ulshafer, Jack Cox, and Richard Ottosen, (who were more into the hardware than the others) all had Digital Group hardware. The reason the Digital Group didn't go further in the group than it did is because (a) they didn't get around to a working FDC, (b) though they took orders in '79 for a 32K SRAM card, based on the TMS4044, the boards weren't delivered until '81, by which time most of the group members had made other arrangements, and (c) the Apple became less costly, allowing more of the group members to standardize on that. Unfortunately, once all the "movers" had Apple]['s, nothing new was produced by the group on a cooperative basis. Everyone moved off in his own direction again, and, unfortunately, that's the way it's stayed since then. I quite going to meetings in '81, and have attended perhaps a dozen meetings since then, though I've kept in close touch with the "group-gropers" by phone and individual contacts. One of the newer (in 1978) group members, Tommy Billings, designed a board set that, if properly configured, could emulate the Digital Group memory map, and that's what I used. It became popular bcause the required enclosure was smaller than the larger-than-S-100 Digital Group box. I do believe I'm the only one who built additional boards, e.g FDC, HDC, etc for the Tommy-Billings board set, and I had my own sets of boards, identical to Tommy's, but made up with gold card-edge connectors and dry-film solder mask. My version of the backplane/extender card was made up in such a way that two or more could be plugged together, though I never used them that way, and my wire-wrap card was completely filled with plated-through holes in a colander ground-plane on the wiring side and a power (Vcc) plane on the component side. Tommy and I were the ones doing system hardware development back then, while Wayne Wall, Larry Fish, Peter Boyle, and Loren Blaney were the main movers and shakers in the software area. Unfortunately, once the latter group got their Apple]['s nothing new came out of the group, since one could buy for the Apple][ what otherwise would have had to be built for the DG and our homebrew systems. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 7:20 AM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > > Well, you're in luck, as Larry Fish, one of the founding members of the still > > barely surviving Denver Area 6502 Users' Group > > Did this Larry work at Commodore at all? There's a 'fish' sometimes credited > on Commodore motherboard designs. > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- > > From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 10:02:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <654ABC8E3A6CD11198EC006008162807011B96E0@NS2> <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <20010926221901.A21779@eskimo.eskimo.com> <4.3.2.7.2.20010927174203.00b10a50@kerberos.davies.net.au> Message-ID: <005701c14765$79803980$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> One other thing that was apparently incorrectly recorded in that history, is that the tape decks for which Wayne Wall wrote drivers to be used with his Digital Group system were not "phi-Decks" but rather were Lexitron digital cassette drives that we all got from California Digital back in '77-'78 and for which Wayne wrote some really cool driver code that used software timing and a couple of parallel port bits to drive the data and control lines. These held, on a C-60 audio cassette, about what an SSDD 5-1/4" floppy of the time held i.e. 256KB. He adapted Peter Boyle's FFS ( a single-drive Floppy DOS and precursor to APEX) into TFS, a tape file system. The tape file system was pretty amazing, though, like anything based on tape, it was dreadfully painful waiting through the tape latencies. Chuck Robertson, who was then a student at C.U. Boulder, and now is a senior VP at Mentor Graphics, modified the TFS code to support TWO of these digital cassette drives. I had built a box with a small motherboard and two drives in it and was happy to see the two-drive software up and running, but the one and only copy of it that existed because of everyone's limited resources, was destroyed in Wayne's office when Chuck was having Wayne check the executable code out. Nothing further was ever done with the Lexitron drives, AFAIK. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Huw Davies" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 1:43 AM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > At 12:55 AM 27/09/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >Well, you're in luck, as Larry Fish, one of the founding members of the still > >barely surviving Denver Area 6502 Users' Group wrote a history in which he > >does, > >to some extent, tell the tale, naming names and spelling out events. That's > >accessible at www.6502group.org. It's not "up" at this moment, so I don't > >have > >the exact URL, but when the site's up, the history is readily available. > > > It's up now and the history can be found at http://6502group.org/HIST6502.HTM > > Some things in the history aren't quite right - a black PDP-10? Perhaps it > was the special Stealth version :-) > > > Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies@kerberos.davies.net.au > | "If God had wanted soccer played in the > | air, the sky would be painted green" > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 11:41:35 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card In-Reply-To: Re: ID this Apple ][ Card (Eric Chomko) References: <15282.57159.877120.669122@phaduka.neurotica.com> <3BB321F3.AFF1F965@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <15283.22207.499274.172336@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 27, Eric Chomko wrote: > > On September 27, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > > Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I > > > believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. > > > > Hmm...the 6116 is a 2Kx8 static RAM. > > Additionally, aren't they pin-compatible with 2716s? Yup. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From celt at edison.chisp.net Thu Sep 27 12:20:06 2001 From: celt at edison.chisp.net (Celt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Vintage Computer Festival wrote: > > I have a card with the only markings on it being Adaptive Peripherals. > It's quite interesting. > > Onboard are several (6) 24 pin RCA packages marked CDM6116, which I > believe are ROMs. The rest is TTL. > > It leads out to an external box with a centronics interface on it, a > switch and LED, and two phono jacks. The switch in one direction seems > to activate it, as when I turn on the computer with the switch in that > position the LED lights and the system is frozen. The switch in the other > position results in a normal boot. If I flip the switch while the system > is on then it locks up. If I switch it back and then do a reset, the > system resumes. > > Before I attached a monitor to it, it seemed to make the computer do > something different. The normal "beep" when I turned the system on was > replaced with a "boop". I finally hooked a monitor up but now the card > does not seem to do anything. I hope I didn't fry it as when I was > carrying it upstairs I plugged the dangling printer cable from the > parallel card into the centronics interface in the external box to keep it > from swinging around. When I first powered it on it was shorting > something as the power supply was cycling on/off. I turned it off > quickly and unplugged the cable, then turned it on to hear the "boop" > sound. So it seemed to be doing something weird until I plugged the > monitor in to see what the heck was going on. > > It's in slot 4, so I checked the memory area at $C400 but there is nothing > there. > > It also has a two AAA batteries on the back which I've taken out. They > don't seem to affect the operation. I'm going to put two fresh batteries > on to see what different it makes. > > I'm thinking this was an alternate ROM card, maybe for development or > cracking games, although it seems to elaborate for the latter. > > Any ideas? > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > IIRC, Adaptive Peripherals produced a line of 'enhanced learning devices' for the IIgs and the IIe, specifically peripherals for disabled children. The devices were sold exclusively to education channels. If it's the same thing I'm thinking of, I've got one (I'll check tonight when I get home) - may have the drivers for a few of the devices they made buried somewhere. I don't have any actual peripherals though. The centronics plug was their standard device interface, the jacks connected to special audio devices for the hearing impaired. The system is freezing (again, IIRC) when you flip the switch because the card is trying to talk to whatever device you may have plugged in. Kinda cool, really. The toggle switch allowed you to safely swap devices without powering down. You may be able to find more info here: http://www.makoa.org/computers.htm I didn't follow the links too deeply. And here: http://www.brus-dso.odedodea.edu/special/softlist.html#anchor_Adaptive%20Device%20Vendors Mike From dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com Thu Sep 27 12:34:59 2001 From: dhquebbeman at theestopinalgroup.com (Douglas Quebbeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars Message-ID: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> > I quit using most of my other calculators and, today, use an HP 25C almost > exclusively, though I have a '21 also. I didn't know those were collectibles. > back in the '70's, I modified the battery holder so I could replace the > batteries when they went bad. This was a common problem. The use of 1.5-volt > batteries probably won't hurt anything if my own calculators are any indication, > though I've usually replaced the NiCd types with others of the same sort. Way back in '77 (I think), I got a mailing from TI advertising and offerring for sale the TI Programmer, which was a simple 4-function calculator in that standard black-plastic format they used to use, replete with the also-standard LEDs. However, it wasn't actually a four-function calculator, because it included radix conversion and several standard logical operators. At home, when I need radix conversion, instead of the Casio Fx-115m or the Calc accessory, I still reach for the TI Programmer... -dq From foo at siconic.com Thu Sep 27 12:56:27 2001 From: foo at siconic.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <004a01c14763$fea75c80$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I don't remember any talk about Larry Fish and a Commodore of any > sort. Nobody wanted to spend the money that was required for a PET, > considering what it was. Larry's first 6502, IIRC, was JOLT, similar > in some ways to a KIM-1, and most of The JOLT was Ray Holt's first computer kit (circa 1975, before the SYM-1). He called it "JOLT" because his business partner, Manny Lemas, was a Spaniard, and in Spanish the "J" is pronounced as an "H" in English, ergo JOLT. Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 27 13:05:21 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > Way back in '77 (I think), I got a mailing from TI advertising and > offerring for sale the TI Programmer, which was a simple 4-function > calculator in that standard black-plastic format they used to use, > replete with the also-standard LEDs. However, it wasn't actually a > four-function calculator, because it included radix conversion and > several standard logical operators. > At home, when I need radix conversion, instead of the Casio Fx-115m or > the Calc accessory, I still reach for the TI Programmer... The TI "Programmer" (NOT to be confused with "programmable") was one of the first basic calculators to offer hexadecimal arithmetic and hex/decimal conversion. The LED display really ate batteries, and it could go through a battery discharge in less time than it takes Windoze to boot. But if you kept it plugged into the wall, it worked great. Then they came out with a new model of it with LCD display. The batteries got great life, but the keyboard tended to go before the batteries. If you like having a calculator that includes hex, one of the really neat ones is the Casio CFX-40 and CFX-400. It requires good eyes and good dexterity, since it is a "scientific" calculator in a watch. It's biggest weakness was a tendency to crack between the display and the keyboard. I've replaced the case on several. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From donm at cts.com Thu Sep 27 13:38:34 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Douglas Quebbeman wrote: > > Way back in '77 (I think), I got a mailing from TI advertising and > > offerring for sale the TI Programmer, which was a simple 4-function > > calculator in that standard black-plastic format they used to use, > > replete with the also-standard LEDs. However, it wasn't actually a > > four-function calculator, because it included radix conversion and > > several standard logical operators. > > At home, when I need radix conversion, instead of the Casio Fx-115m or > > the Calc accessory, I still reach for the TI Programmer... > > The TI "Programmer" (NOT to be confused with "programmable") was one of > the first basic calculators to offer hexadecimal arithmetic and > hex/decimal conversion. The LED display really ate batteries, and it > could go through a battery discharge in less time than it takes Windoze to > boot. But if you kept it plugged into the wall, it worked great. > > Then they came out with a new model of it with LCD display. The batteries > got great life, but the keyboard tended to go before the batteries. > > > If you like having a calculator that includes hex, one of the really neat > ones is the Casio CFX-40 and CFX-400. It requires good eyes and good > dexterity, since it is a "scientific" calculator in a watch. It's biggest > weakness was a tendency to crack between the display and the keyboard. > I've replaced the case on several. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com > And for those with weak eyes, there is always the Casio CM-100 solar-powered `computer math calc' handheld. I think no longer manufactured, though. - don From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 13:09:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card In-Reply-To: <3BB321F3.AFF1F965@mail.verizon.net> from "Eric Chomko" at Sep 27, 1 08:56:19 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 379 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010927/f31c61e1/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 13:15:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: <003e01c1475e$d9c2ba40$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 27, 1 08:15:24 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1754 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010927/1eaa4e73/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 13:02:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: ID this Apple ][ Card In-Reply-To: from "Vintage Computer Festival" at Sep 27, 1 00:04:02 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 664 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010927/539feda8/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 27 12:59:32 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Keep or assemble??? In-Reply-To: <20010927023144.LOIY4549.imf00bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 26, 1 10:30:02 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010927/d202f201/attachment.ksh From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Thu Sep 27 15:06:28 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question References: Message-ID: <3BB386C4.5DFF8DA7@tinyworld.co.uk> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > OK, I'm thinking of doing a wierd mod on a VT100, just how much room > is inside one of them? I need room for a 7 1/2" x 9" x 2 1/2" board > (the 2 1/2" is thanks to the heatsink and RAM), and would also like > to be able to fit in a smallish 250W PS (3 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 6"), and > a 3 1/2" HD. I've put two photos of a topless VT100 in http://vt100.net/zane/ which might give you some idea of the shape of space available. On the left hand side of the photos you see the card cage. The space there is 10.5"H x 10.5"D x 3.25"W (but only 2" unobstructed to the back). You might be able to make that 2.25"W to the back with a bit of persuasion. The PSU occupies the space at the back of the terminal, but only extends halfway forward, so there is space underneath the flare of the tube of 10"W x 4.75"H x 5"D. Of course you'd not want to disrupt the picture. (Memo to self: must sort out vertical linearity on mine!) At the back right hand side (again, as you look at the picture), underneath the high tension wire to the tube, there is a space 4"W x 3.5"H x 5"D. Regards, Paul From edick at idcomm.com Thu Sep 27 16:38:43 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I'm still partial to having some of those functions, too, but with a computer running Windows nearly everywhere I turn, the calculator that's built-in there seems to work fine. I gave all my TI calculators and printers away a couple of years back and really don't miss 'em, though I always liked 'em when I used 'em. They were harder to deal with where batteries were concerned, though, than are the old HP's, and I think the easy-to-modify battery case is the reason I've ended up with the HP's. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Douglas Quebbeman" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 11:34 AM Subject: RE: Calc wars > > > I quit using most of my other calculators and, today, use an HP 25C almost > > exclusively, though I have a '21 also. I didn't know those were > collectibles. > > back in the '70's, I modified the battery holder so I could replace the > > batteries when they went bad. This was a common problem. The use of > 1.5-volt > > batteries probably won't hurt anything if my own calculators are any > indication, > > though I've usually replaced the NiCd types with others of the same sort. > > Way back in '77 (I think), I got a mailing from TI advertising and > offerring for sale the TI Programmer, which was a simple 4-function > calculator in that standard black-plastic format they used to use, > replete with the also-standard LEDs. However, it wasn't actually a > four-function calculator, because it included radix conversion and > several standard logical operators. > > At home, when I need radix conversion, instead of the Casio Fx-115m or > the Calc accessory, I still reach for the TI Programmer... > > -dq > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Sep 27 16:46:10 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question In-Reply-To: from "Paul Williams" at Sep 27, 2001 09:06:28 PM Message-ID: <200109272146.f8RLkAX11407@shell1.aracnet.com> Paul Williams wrote: > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > > OK, I'm thinking of doing a wierd mod on a VT100, just how much room > > is inside one of them? I need room for a 7 1/2" x 9" x 2 1/2" board > > (the 2 1/2" is thanks to the heatsink and RAM), and would also like > > to be able to fit in a smallish 250W PS (3 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 6"), and > > a 3 1/2" HD. > > I've put two photos of a topless VT100 in http://vt100.net/zane/ which > might give you some idea of the shape of space available. Thanks, between them and the description you've given I've got a lot better idea. > On the left hand side of the photos you see the card cage. The space > there is 10.5"H x 10.5"D x 3.25"W (but only 2" unobstructed to the > back). You might be able to make that 2.25"W to the back with a bit of > persuasion. This isn't a huge problem as the 2.5" dimension I give is for the heatsink and fan on the motherboard. It looks like I should be able to fit the motherboard in this cavity, I rather thought I could since a VT103 used this to squeeze in a PDP-11. > The PSU occupies the space at the back of the terminal, but only extends > halfway forward, so there is space underneath the flare of the tube of > 10"W x 4.75"H x 5"D. Of course you'd not want to disrupt the picture. > (Memo to self: must sort out vertical linearity on mine!) > > At the back right hand side (again, as you look at the picture), > underneath the high tension wire to the tube, there is a space 4"W x > 3.5"H x 5"D. Sounds like I need to either find a smaller PowerSupply, or else I'm going to have to have it external to the system (which I don't want). Unfortunatly I seem to have run across another stumbling block besides the size of the powersupply. It seems that the system is pretty much rock solid if it has the keyboard, mouse, AND CD-ROM plugged in, however if I unplug either the CD-ROM or the USB Keyboard and Mouse the system will lock up after it's been up for between half an hour and two hours. I've been unable to find any logs or reason for it locking up. I'm using SUSE Linux 7.2 Professional for this setup. In any case, hopefully I'll be able to dig one of my VT100's out of storage on Saturday. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 27 16:55:49 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: Re: Calc wars (Richard Erlacher) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15283.41061.905619.788816@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 27, Richard Erlacher wrote: > I'm still partial to having some of those functions, too, but with a computer > running Windows nearly everywhere I turn, the calculator that's built-in there Man, you're hangin' out in the wrong places. I haven't laid eyes on a Windoze box in months. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 27 17:27:01 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables Message-ID: <200109272227.f8RMR1W15643@narnia.int.dittman.net> Okay, my two HSD05 controllers arrived. I never paid attention to the DSSI connector before, so I thought it was the same as a SCSI connector, but it isn't. Does anyone know of a source for cheap DSSI cables? -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Thu Sep 27 17:50:07 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables In-Reply-To: <200109272227.f8RMR1W15643@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010927154931.00a3b470@mcmanis.com> At 03:27 PM 9/27/01, Eric wrote: >Does anyone know of a source for cheap DSSI cables? If you tell Eric could you tell me too please? --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Thu Sep 27 17:50:39 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables Message-ID: <200109272250.f8RMod915734@narnia.int.dittman.net> > Okay, my two HSD05 controllers arrived. I never paid attention to > the DSSI connector before, so I thought it was the same as a SCSI > connector, but it isn't. Does anyone know of a source for cheap > DSSI cables? I checked again. The connectors on the VAX 4000/500 are identical to SCSI connectors. The connector on the Tri-Link connector (part number 12-39921-01) are different, though. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From louiss at gate.net Thu Sep 27 19:04:40 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest In-Reply-To: <20010920032615.NZXE21447.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <200109280004.UAA19906@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Hope to see everyone there! Louis On Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:24:37 -0400, Glen Goodwin wrote: #Due to the events of last week, and inclement weather, the CFCJF has been #rescheduled for Sun. Sept. 30th, 9 AM. If you have any questions or need #directions please contact me off-list. # #See ya there! # #Glen #0/0 # From avickers at solutionengineers.com Thu Sep 27 19:32:01 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:06 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928012353.00a93bf8@192.168.1.2> Hi again folks, My US 8032 turned up today (yay!). Since I can't modify the transformer (unfortunately - it looks like the US one doesn't have dual primary taps like the UK one), I've swapped it out with the 240vac transformer from my other (still broken) 8032. This machine has a wobbly screen, just like the 8032-SK (which was broken, but I installed the working motherboard), the other 8032 (which was working, until I swapped the broken m/b), and the 3016. In fact, the only PET I've got which *doesn't* have a wobbly screen is the 2001. Well, it does wobble, but only a tiny bit. ISTR a discussion (mostly with Tony) about dried electrolytics maybe causing the problem. However, I spoke to the chap in the US who said that when the 8032 left America it had a rock-steady screen... Since I left the big cap in place, it can only be the transformer which is causing the wobble - can't it? I genuinely don't know. That's the only part I've swapped in the new 8032. Could a flakey transformer be making the screen wobble? How do transformers go flakey anyway, if indeed they *can* co flakey? Or is the US chap telling porkies? Thanks, again, in advance. -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 18/09/2001 From vze2wsvr at verizon.net Thu Sep 27 20:03:43 2001 From: vze2wsvr at verizon.net (Eric Chomko) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:07 2005 Subject: Calc wars References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <15283.41061.905619.788816@phaduka.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <3BB3CC6F.3155E356@mail.verizon.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On September 27, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > I'm still partial to having some of those functions, too, but with a computer > > running Windows nearly everywhere I turn, the calculator that's built-in there > > Man, you're hangin' out in the wrong places. I haven't laid eyes on > a Windoze box in months. > Some folks just know how to live. :) Eric > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Laurel, MD From whdawson at mlynk.com Thu Sep 27 20:17:05 2001 From: whdawson at mlynk.com (Bill Dawson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:07 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928012353.00a93bf8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: -> Since I left the big cap in place, it can only be the transformer -> which is causing the wobble - can't it? -> -> I genuinely don't know. That's the only part I've swapped in the -> new 8032. -> Could a flakey transformer be making the screen wobble? How do -> transformers go flakey anyway, if indeed they *can* co flakey? Well, actually I think the transformer is the cause of the problem, but not in the way you are thinking. You may have an problem with the magnetic field of the transformer being coupled to the monitor, either via the yoke or directly to the CRT. Does the problem lessen as the distance between the transformer and the monitor is increased? See the photos of the Commodore Educator 64, Model 4064 at http://www.swtpc.com/commodor.htm . I remember the general position of the power transformer is similar to the Pets. Note the shielding of the transformer in the photos. This was used to prevent the problem which you are describing, and if this shielding is removed the wobble will occur. Try placing a shaded pole motor or large transformer anywhere near the sides or back of a modern monitor and you'll see the same wobbling effect. Hope this helps. Bill From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Sep 27 16:25:15 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:07 2005 Subject: What's the volts for P70/P75 plamsa display on yours? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010928011723.BHZO27768.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> On the IBM luggable P70/P75. Both panels are the same except for incompatiable physical connector shifted by one pin on power plug (on panel) but same pin out on data cable for panel and power voltages for panel. In this order of wirings I made voltage measurements in relation to ground. black ground = chassis also. red 4.9V white 5.1V yellow -177V blue -181V I'm still trying to resolve the annoying flickering pixies disease Pixies one row down is non-flickering but if any more pixies remains dark for another at least 2 rows, then next first row are flickering but one row that are on down are perfect, so on. in any modes, and that's not bad vram problem. Already tried another panel but problem wasn't in panel itself. Best viewed w/ monospaced font. Crude ascii diagram of "61" and below that "61" is graphical drawing of any type displayed on same panel at same time: "*" is flickering pixies. "O" is stable pixies. *** * O O OOO O O O O OOO O * O* OO* OOO* OOOO**** OOOOOOOO OOOOOOOO Want your voltage readings on your functional luggable. P70 and P75 use same type of panels remember. My eyes is that good and can resolve each pixie individually. Been hunting for long time even for 2 years, and opened that bastard PSU for nth time! The PSU has two seperate PSUs one for PC/drives and one for display itself. Oh, that problem was intermittement but now that was long gone since then and like this way permenantly flickering. Cheers, Wizard From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Thu Sep 27 20:34:49 2001 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:07 2005 Subject: Free for Cost of Shipping - Vintage Telephone Switching Books In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928012353.00a93bf8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: I have, for the cost of shipping (I'm guessing $5), two books that may be of interest to folks interested in old telephone switching: A Survey of Telephone Transmission - Pacific Telephone - 1956 Switching Systems - AT&T - 1961 These are cool books for your inner phone phreak. Both books are in excellent condition. The first is soft cover, plastic bound. The second is hard cover. First person to agree to send me $5 gets them. Anthony Clifton PO Box 35533 Des Moines, Iowa 50315 From dogas at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 27 20:35:44 2001 From: dogas at bellsouth.net (Mike) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:07 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest References: <200109280004.UAA19906@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <002401c147bd$e5ba2fe0$c362d6d1@DOMAIN> From: Louis Schulman > Hope to see everyone there! I'm looking forward to meeting everyone there too. Please send some email off list and let me know what you're bringing and want. ;) - Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 27 21:20:29 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:08 2005 Subject: FT: DEC rack cover panels Message-ID: <20010927212029.M2460@mrbill.net> A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned that I was looking for some of the black/off-white 10"x19" front "cover panels" that go on a rack of DEC equipment (black "crinkly" with a white border). I've now got a box of at least 7 of them, with more on the way. Anybody need one or two? I'd like to trade for something else interesting, but not necessarily computer-related. Old civil defense stuff (geiger counter, etc), phone stuff (old switch docs, Bell System stuff, things like that), etc. Alternately, looking for good-brand 10baseT hubs or switches. Anyway, if you can use one or two or more of these, let me know. I'm only going to keep one or two for myself, so the rest are available. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From mrbill at mrbill.net Thu Sep 27 21:22:24 2001 From: mrbill at mrbill.net (Bill Bradford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: What's the volts for P70/P75 plamsa display on yours? In-Reply-To: <20010928011723.BHZO27768.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <20010928011723.BHZO27768.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010927212224.N2460@mrbill.net> On Thu, Sep 27, 2001 at 09:25:15PM +0000, jpero@sympatico.ca wrote: > On the IBM luggable P70/P75. Both panels are the same > except for incompatiable physical connector shifted by > one pin on power plug (on panel) but same pin out on data cable > for panel and power voltages for panel. I have two of these, minus the back panels, free for pickup in Austin, TX. One of them worked perfectly except for a bad HD, the other didnt power up at all - so I tried to swap the HD from the bad unit into the good one. When I got everything reassembled, neither will power up now... but I couldnt bring myself to throw them away. Sometime since then, the back panels have been lost. Keyboards and everything though... so let me know if anybody wants them. The screen on the "good" unit was absolutely beautiful when it worked. Bill -- Bill Bradford mrbill@mrbill.net Austin, TX From jpero at sympatico.ca Thu Sep 27 17:51:46 2001 From: jpero at sympatico.ca (jpero@sympatico.ca) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: What's the volts for P70/P75 plamsa display on yours? In-Reply-To: <20010927212224.N2460@mrbill.net> References: <20010928011723.BHZO27768.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: <20010928024444.SIBU16542.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> > Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 21:22:24 -0500 > From: Bill Bradford > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What's the volts for P70/P75 plamsa display on yours? > Reply-to: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > I have two of these, minus the back panels, free for pickup in > Austin, TX. One of them worked perfectly except for a bad HD, the > other didnt power up at all - so I tried to swap the HD from the > bad unit into the good one. When I got everything reassembled, > neither will power up now... but I couldnt bring myself to throw > them away. Sometime since then, the back panels have been lost. > Keyboards and everything though... so let me know if anybody wants > them. > > The screen on the "good" unit was absolutely beautiful when it worked. > > Bill Which one? P70 (386) or P75 (486)? On both types, motherboard have load of fuses, HD, FD, and few others! Good old IBM nutiness. Did you mean you got power on power LED lit and fan spinning but no POST? If you note my email address, I'm in canada. 8-O Still haven't got any replies w/ their measured volts on 5 wire cable for panel. Cheers, Wizard From gehrich at tampabay.rr.com Thu Sep 27 21:51:12 2001 From: gehrich at tampabay.rr.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest In-Reply-To: <002401c147bd$e5ba2fe0$c362d6d1@DOMAIN> References: <200109280004.UAA19906@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010927225037.00ae0520@pop3.norton.antivirus> At 09:35 PM 9/27/01 -0400, you wrote: >From: Louis Schulman > > Hope to see everyone there! > >I'm looking forward to meeting everyone there too. Please send some email >off list and let me know what you're bringing and want. > >;) >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net I must have missed the original messages on this. Where is it and when and what can I expect to find there? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Thu Sep 27 22:35:31 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: <15283.41061.905619.788816@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Calc wars (Richard Erlacher) <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >On September 27, Richard Erlacher wrote: >> I'm still partial to having some of those functions, too, but with a >>computer >> running Windows nearly everywhere I turn, the calculator that's built-in >>there > > Man, you're hangin' out in the wrong places. I haven't laid eyes on >a Windoze box in months. REALLY? I saw about 1000 in a scrap yard today on pallets waiting to be recycled, lovely site. ;) Anybody else notice that the long arm of the scrapper now seems to extend to about the P200 class of machines? (scrapped for parts instead of being resold). RE calcs, I still have my HP 16C and my HP45, and I still regret the HP35 I missed 20 years ago at a swapmeet. From vaxman at qwest.net Thu Sep 27 22:47:36 2001 From: vaxman at qwest.net (Clint Wolff (VAX collector)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: TI 99 available in Broomfield, CO Message-ID: There is an ad in this weeks Broomfield Enterprise paper for a TI99 available free, but I didn't bring the ad home. Contact me if interested (offlist). clint From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 27 23:42:46 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) Message-ID: <20010928044428.MVA10309.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, but hang on a second. If I don't keep the BASIC (I'd prefer Forth, > and yes I know there was a forth ROM for the ZX81), I modify the display > (so I don't really use the ULA) The ULA does a lot more than handle the display ;>) > I replace the keyboard, and upgrade the > internal RAM, then all I am really using is the Z80. And those are not > hard to find :-).. Okay, you are absolutely correct given the FORTH. I use calls to the BASIC ROM routines from assembly and machine code, so I'm using more than just the Z80 MPU. > In other words, if I'm going to do that level of hacking, I might as well > start from scratch. Not that there's anything wrong in doing that, of course. Of course not ;>) But a ZX81 kit is still faster than starting from scratch. > If I start > with a pre-built unit I have to work around the existing parts. > Or desolder them (which is not impossible, generally). Try desoldering the RF modulator from a ZX81 board ;>) Glen 0/0 From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 27 23:56:45 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest Message-ID: <20010928045827.RXL3269.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Gene: The Central Florida Computer Junk Fest is being held Sunday Sept. 30 starting at 9 AM. The location is: ACME Discount Computers 5511 W. Colonial Drive Orlando FL 32808 (407) 296-2333 Whatever you bring must be at least ten years old, and please do *not* bring a mountain of 286s . . . We're near the NE corner of Kirkman and Colonial behind the Wendy's. E-mail me off-list if you want more specific directions. See ya there! Glen 0/0 ---------- > From: Gene Ehrich > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Central FL Computer Junk Fest > Date: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:51 PM > > At 09:35 PM 9/27/01 -0400, you wrote: > >From: Louis Schulman > > > Hope to see everyone there! > > > >I'm looking forward to meeting everyone there too. Please send some email > >off list and let me know what you're bringing and want. > > > >;) > >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > I must have missed the original messages on this. > > Where is it and when and what can I expect to find there? > > > > From donm at cts.com Fri Sep 28 00:17:37 2001 From: donm at cts.com (Don Maslin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Sep 2001, Bill Dawson wrote: > -> Since I left the big cap in place, it can only be the transformer > -> which is causing the wobble - can't it? > -> > -> I genuinely don't know. That's the only part I've swapped in the > -> new 8032. > -> Could a flakey transformer be making the screen wobble? How do > -> transformers go flakey anyway, if indeed they *can* co flakey? > > Well, actually I think the transformer is the cause of the problem, but not > in the way you are thinking. You may have an problem with the magnetic > field of the transformer being coupled to the monitor, either via the yoke > or directly to the CRT. Does the problem lessen as the distance between the > transformer and the monitor is increased? > > See the photos of the Commodore Educator 64, Model 4064 at > http://www.swtpc.com/commodor.htm . I remember the general position of the > power transformer is similar to the Pets. Note the shielding of the > transformer in the photos. This was used to prevent the problem which you > are describing, and if this shielding is removed the wobble will occur. Try > placing a shaded pole motor or large transformer anywhere near the sides or > back of a modern monitor and you'll see the same wobbling effect. > > Hope this helps. > > Bill Would it not also be true that rectifying 50Hz AC would require better filtering than rectifying 60Hz? Hair splitting perhaps, but.... - don From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 28 01:49:29 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables In-Reply-To: <200109272250.f8RMod915734@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109280649.IAA15646@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 27 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > I checked again. The connectors on the VAX 4000/500 are identical to > SCSI connectors. But the wiring to the ribbon cable is different. DSSI uses a 1:1 mapping of pin numbers. The HD50 connector for SCSI is wired this way to the ribbon cable: HD50 ribbon 1 1 2 25 3 3 4 26 5 5 6 27 ... ... -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 28 04:26:29 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables In-Reply-To: from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 28, 2001 08:49:29 AM Message-ID: <200109280926.f8S9QTo16749@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > I checked again. The connectors on the VAX 4000/500 are identical to > > SCSI connectors. > But the wiring to the ribbon cable is different. DSSI uses a 1:1 > mapping of pin numbers. The HD50 connector for SCSI is wired this way > to the ribbon cable: > HD50 ribbon > 1 1 > 2 25 > 3 3 > 4 26 > 5 5 > 6 27 > ... ... Yes, but if the connectors on both ends are the same I would be able to use a SCSI cable to go from the 4000 to the HSD05. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From edick at idcomm.com Fri Sep 28 04:51:09 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) References: <20010928044428.MVA10309.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <002b01c14803$19c92940$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This has gotten to be a pretty peculiar discussion. Initially the question was whether to leave an unassembled kit in its original state or to sell it off and buy an already built one with a portion of the proceeds, since the unassembled kit apparently brings a better price than an assembled and working one. Now it's become whether it's better to hack up and totally modify a system that's not wanted in order to get what is wanted. Building up a Z80 setup with a serial port, having designed it around one or another of the rather common monitor proms avaiable for one or another SBC seems to look on ther order of an afternoon's wiring, provided one's got the parts. I'm curious why one would extensively modify a fully functional device in order to make it into something it isn't when it's really less effort to build it from scratch by wirewrap, and end up with something that IS wanted. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Goodwin" To: Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:42 PM Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, but hang on a second. If I don't keep the BASIC (I'd prefer Forth, > > and yes I know there was a forth ROM for the ZX81), I modify the display > > (so I don't really use the ULA) > > The ULA does a lot more than handle the display ;>) > > > I replace the keyboard, and upgrade the > > internal RAM, then all I am really using is the Z80. And those are not > > hard to find :-).. > > Okay, you are absolutely correct given the FORTH. I use calls to the BASIC > ROM routines from assembly and machine code, so I'm using more than just > the Z80 MPU. > > > In other words, if I'm going to do that level of hacking, I might as well > > > start from scratch. Not that there's anything wrong in doing that, of > course. > > Of course not ;>) But a ZX81 kit is still faster than starting from > scratch. > > > If I start > > with a pre-built unit I have to work around the existing parts. > > > Or desolder them (which is not impossible, generally). > > Try desoldering the RF modulator from a ZX81 board ;>) > > Glen > 0/0 > > From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Sep 28 05:01:23 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928012353.00a93bf8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928105427.025e5188@192.168.1.2> At 02:17 28/09/2001, Bill Dawson wrote: >-> Since I left the big cap in place, it can only be the transformer >-> which is causing the wobble - can't it? >-> >-> I genuinely don't know. That's the only part I've swapped in the >-> new 8032. >-> Could a flakey transformer be making the screen wobble? How do >-> transformers go flakey anyway, if indeed they *can* co flakey? > >Well, actually I think the transformer is the cause of the problem, but not >in the way you are thinking. You may have an problem with the magnetic >field of the transformer being coupled to the monitor, either via the yoke >or directly to the CRT. Does the problem lessen as the distance between the >transformer and the monitor is increased? I don't know - to try that I'd have to disassemble the whole thing again :( The earth wires are a bit too short to make testing that easy. >See the photos of the Commodore Educator 64, Model 4064 at >http://www.swtpc.com/commodor.htm . I remember the general position of the >power transformer is similar to the Pets. Note the shielding of the >transformer in the photos. This was used to prevent the problem which you >are describing, and if this shielding is removed the wobble will occur. Try >placing a shaded pole motor or large transformer anywhere near the sides or >back of a modern monitor and you'll see the same wobbling effect. Interestingly, the US transformer is of a different design to the UK one; I'm assuming the primary windings are inside the secondary, and there's a broad metal band strapped around the whole thing. The UK transformer has the primary & secondary windings next to each other, and there's no shielding at all. If I fabricate a box, I assume it'll have to be earthed, and surround the whole transformer? Also, will any metal do, or does it need to be ferric? -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 18/09/2001 From Martin.Kaeser at auge.de Fri Sep 28 05:52:51 2001 From: Martin.Kaeser at auge.de (Martin =?ISO-8859-1?Q?K=E4ser?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen References: <200109280227.VAA10880@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: <3BB45683.80408@auge.de> Adrian, a CBM8032 rock-steady with 60 Hz power supply (US) may wobble on a 50 Hz line (UK). Martin > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 01:32:01 +0100 > From: Adrian Vickers > Could a flakey transformer be making the screen wobble? How do transformers > go flakey anyway, if indeed they *can* co flakey? Or is the US chap telling > porkies? From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Sep 28 07:37:09 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question References: Message-ID: <3BB46EF5.FF677AFF@idirect.com> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > OK, I'm thinking of doing a wierd mod on a VT100, just how much room is > inside one of them? I need room for a 7 1/2" x 9" x 2 1/2" board (the > 2 1/2" is thanks to the heatsink and RAM), and would also like to be able > to fit in a smallish 250W PS (3 1/2" x 5 1/2" x 6"), and a 3 1/2" HD. Jerome Fine replies: I don't know if this information will help, but here goes: The VT103 is based on the VT100 and used the same shell. Inside, the power supply is a bit more powerful. There is also a small fan just under the vent holes on the right hand side. In that same area is enough space for a 4 * 4 Qbus backplane in addition the the normal video interface board. To be specific, 4 quad Qbus boards can fit there. In addition, I have also put a 5 1/4" full height hard disk drive under the tube. I was a VERY, VERY tight squeeze as far as the width of the drive is concerned. As for the length of the drive, there was a lot of spare room where the cables were located. At first I used an RD51 and later upgraded to an RD53. Since power was very limited, I normally supplied the power to the hard drive via an external PC power supply, but for short periods of time, I did use the VT103 power supply. > I've got 2 or 3 VT100's, but they're so buried it's going to take a lot of > work to get to them so was hoping to get an idea if there is room first. > Basically I'm trying to build a PDP-10 into a VT100 by using an Intel > D810EMO MicroATX board. I hope the above information in helpful. At one point, I wanted to see how far I could push the envelope. I used a dual M8192, a DLV11-J, a quad 4 MByte memory card (a friend attached the extra wires to convert the 18 bit backplane to 22 bits), an RQD11-EC (quad ESDI hard drive controller) and a DHV11. In this case, the ESDI hard drives were attached to cables running out the back, as were the cabinet kits for the DHV11. Power is very limited to 16 amps on the 5 Volts for the VT103. Whenever I used and ESDI hard drive, I always used an external PC power supply for the power for the ESDI hard drive. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Sep 28 06:50:36 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010928075036.01dbef8c@obregon.multi.net.co> These days, I usually prefer to fire up matlab, even in my older DAQ & HPIL-specific, DOS-only pc, where I still have my 87/09/09 copy of pc-matlab 3.13, and my copy of matlab-386 3.5 . If I need more portability then I resort to (in order of preference) my HP71, my HP67 or my HP41CV. But my holy grail for portable computations would be a nice HP200LX w. extra mem. and pcmatlab 3.13; alas, I never managed to find one I could afford. For a while I had a working HP100LX, but then it died. These are the pcmatlab 3.13 benchmarks on a Pentium 166; I think it is a nice historical comparison: bench echo on, clc % The MATLAB benchmarks. (May take 2-3 minutes) % % This demo file runs a set of 7 standard benchmarks: % % 1) N=50 Real matrix multiply % 2) N=50 Real matrix inverse % 3) N=25 Real eigenvalues % 4) 4096-point complex FFT % 5) LINPACK benchmark % 6) 1000 iteration FOR loop % 7) N=25 3-D mesh plot % % The benchmarks illuminate computer architectural issues that % affect the speed of software like MATLAB on different machines. % % The time for your machine is measured and displayed versus times % we've already taken from other standard machines. % ------- Table of benchmark times ------- % % 1) PC/XT (4.7MHz\8088\CGA) % 2) PC/AT (6.0MHz\80286\EGA) % 3) AT&T 6300 (8MHz\8086) % 4) Compaq 80386 (16MHz\8MHz80287) % 5) SUN-3/50 (15MHz with 68881) % 6) SUN-3/260 (25MHz with FPA) % 7) MicroVAX II (VMS\D_floating) % 8) Macintosh (8MHz 68000) % 9) Your Machine % * inv eig fft LINPACK for mesh times times = 9.4500 20.9000 21.0000 12.3000 40.9000 18.0000 15.8000 11.1500 20.6000 20.3000 14.9000 46.9000 6.0000 9.9000 5.2000 11.6000 11.2000 7.1000 23.5000 8.7000 7.4000 5.1600 10.2900 10.1600 7.4700 24.1800 2.9700 3.7900 1.8400 3.6000 3.4000 3.5000 7.7000 2.0000 5.0000 0.7000 0.9000 1.1000 1.0000 1.7000 0.9000 2.0000 2.6000 3.1000 2.9000 2.9000 4.9000 3.2000 25.0000 252.0000 325.0000 306.0000 300.0000 926.0000 21.0000 21.0000 0.0600 0.0500 0.0500 0.0500 0.0684 0.1600 0.5500 pause % Strike any key to continue echo off clc % ------- Table of speed ratios to PC/XT ------- % % 1) PC/XT (4.7MHz\8088\CGA) % 2) PC/AT (6.0MHz\80286\EGA) % 3) AT&T 6300 (8MHz\8086) % 4) Compaq 80386 (16MHz\8MHz80287) % 5) SUN-3/50 (15MHz with 68881) % 6) SUN-3/260 (25MHz with FPA) % 7) MicroVAX II (VMS\D_floating) % 8) Macintosh (8MHz 68000) % 9) Your Machine % * inv eig fft LINPACK for mesh ratio ratio = 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 0.8475 1.0146 1.0345 0.8255 0.8721 3.0000 1.5960 1.8173 1.8017 1.8750 1.7324 1.7404 2.0690 2.1351 1.8314 2.0311 2.0669 1.6466 1.6915 6.0606 4.1689 5.1359 5.8056 6.1765 3.5143 5.3117 9.0000 3.1600 13.5000 23.2222 19.0909 12.3000 24.0588 20.0000 7.9000 3.6346 6.7419 7.2414 4.2414 8.3469 5.6250 0.6320 0.0375 0.0643 0.0686 0.0410 0.0442 0.8571 0.7524 157.5000 418.0000 420.0000 246.0000 598.2518 112.5000 28.7273 pause % Strike any key to continue echo off clc % Another popular number to look at is the number of KFlops obtained % from Jack Dongarra's LINPACK benchmark (sometimes called the Argonne % benchmark). This number is often advertised by computer manufacturers % in national trade magazines, comparing their computer versus others % in terms of floating point performance. % The LINPACK benchmark compares the performance of different computer % systems while solving 100'th order dense systems of linear equations in % a Fortran environment. We're in a C environment, but this doesn't % stop us from performing the equivalent calculation. % For solving a system of 100 equations, approximately nflops = 2/3*100^3 + 2*100^2 nflops = 6.8667e+005 % operations are performed. Using our times from above, we find the % KFlop/second throughput for the various machines: KFlops = round(nflops./times(:,5)'/1000) KFlops = Columns 1 through 6 17 15 29 28 89 404 Columns 7 through 9 140 1 10044 % PC-XT PC-AT AT&T 386 SUN3 SUN3F McrVAX Mac Yours % Just for reference, the Cray X-MP achieves 33,000 KFlops! ? quit 2652666 flops. At 03:38 PM 9/27/01 -0600, Dick wrote: >I'm still partial to having some of those functions, too, but with a computer >running Windows nearly everywhere I turn, the calculator that's built-in there >seems to work fine. I gave all my TI calculators and printers away a couple of >years back and really don't miss 'em, though I always liked 'em when I used 'em. >They were harder to deal with where batteries were concerned, though, than are >the old HP's, and I think the easy-to-modify battery case is the reason I've >ended up with the HP's. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Fri Sep 28 07:59:50 2001 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Telephone Books are spoken for In-Reply-To: <20010928024444.SIBU16542.tomts8-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> References: <20010927212224.N2460@mrbill.net> <20010928011723.BHZO27768.tomts5-srv.bellnexxia.net@duron> Message-ID: The telephone books are now spoken for. Thanks for all the offers! Anthony Clifton From pechter at bg-tc-ppp494.monmouth.com Fri Sep 28 08:12:10 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp494.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question In-Reply-To: <3BB46EF5.FF677AFF@idirect.com> from Jerome Fine at "Sep 28, 2001 08:37:09 am" Message-ID: <200109281312.f8SDCBa03551@bg-tc-ppp494.monmouth.com> > At one point, I wanted to see how far I could push the envelope. I used > a dual M8192, a DLV11-J, a quad 4 MByte memory card (a friend attached > the extra wires to convert the 18 bit backplane to 22 bits), an RQD11-EC > (quad ESDI hard drive controller) and a DHV11. In this case, the ESDI > hard drives were attached to cables running out the back, as were the > cabinet kits for the DHV11. Power is very limited to 16 amps on the > 5 Volts for the VT103. Whenever I used and ESDI hard drive, I always > used an external PC power supply for the power for the ESDI hard drive. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine One guy in Sweden put a uVaxII in the VT100 with IIRC a DZV11. I had the wire list for the backplane mods but I think I lost it. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Sep 28 08:50:56 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question References: <200109281312.f8SDCBa03551@bg-tc-ppp494.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3BB48040.E9BBA738@idirect.com> >Bill Pechter wrote: > One guy in Sweden put a uVaxII in the VT100 with IIRC a DZV11. > I had the wire list for the backplane mods but I think I lost it. Jerome Fine replies: Why did DEC not make such low cost systems available for hobby users? I also heard that someone down under (Australia) also did so with a VT103 backplane. Seems that the first two slots need to be ABCD, but I have no idea at all. Maybe not since the memory access is via the cable over the top. Adding an ESDI controller and a DHV11 would make that quite powerful and with a DHQ11, there would even be room for a TKQ50. However, with a uVAX II CPU, and especially with an ESDI controller (i.e. with just an ordinary PDP-11 CPU), I would use an external PC power supply for the hard drives and keep them outside the VT103. Plus, give each ESDI hard drive its own fan. I do that in any case even with a BA123 (i.e. put the ESDI hard drives on an external PC power supply) since I have had two power supplies on a BA123 go on me while I was using the internal power for just 8 boards, an RX50 and a TK70. From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 28 09:29:42 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467113@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> This is quite a neat idea... ! > The PSU occupies the space at the back of the terminal, but ! > only extends halfway forward, so there is space underneath ! > the flare of the tube of 10"W x 4.75"H x 5"D. Of course ! > you'd not want to disrupt the picture. (Memo to self: must ! > sort out vertical linearity on mine!) ! > ! > At the back right hand side (again, as you look at the picture), ! > underneath the high tension wire to the tube, there is a space 4"W x ! > 3.5"H x 5"D. ! ! Sounds like I need to either find a smaller PowerSupply, or ! else I'm going to have to have it external to the system ! (which I don't want). What about taking the power supply out of the metal case? (Re)build a power supply to fit? Also, I have seen some pretty small ATX power supplies. about 1/2 to 2/3 the size of an AT PSU... --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 From DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Fri Sep 28 09:33:37 2001 From: DAW at yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu (David Woyciesjes) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest Message-ID: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467114@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu> Hmmm, is there going to be one up here around Connecticut sometime? --- David A Woyciesjes --- C & IS Support Specialist --- Yale University Press --- mailto:david.woyciesjes@yale.edu --- (203) 432-0953 --- ICQ # - 905818 ! -----Original Message----- ! From: Glen Goodwin [mailto:acme_ent@bellsouth.net] ! Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 12:57 AM ! To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! Subject: Re: Central FL Computer Junk Fest ! ! ! Gene: ! ! The Central Florida Computer Junk Fest is being held Sunday Sept. 30 ! starting at 9 AM. The location is: ! ! ACME Discount Computers ! 5511 W. Colonial Drive ! Orlando FL 32808 ! (407) 296-2333 ! ! Whatever you bring must be at least ten years old, and please do *not* ! bring a mountain of 286s . . . ! ! We're near the NE corner of Kirkman and Colonial behind the Wendy's. ! E-mail me off-list if you want more specific directions. ! ! See ya there! ! ! Glen ! 0/0 ! ! ---------- ! > From: Gene Ehrich ! > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org ! > Subject: Re: Central FL Computer Junk Fest ! > Date: Thursday, September 27, 2001 10:51 PM ! > ! > At 09:35 PM 9/27/01 -0400, you wrote: ! > >From: Louis Schulman ! > > > Hope to see everyone there! ! > > ! > >I'm looking forward to meeting everyone there too. ! Please send some ! email ! > >off list and let me know what you're bringing and want. ! > > ! > >;) ! > >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net ! > ! > I must have missed the original messages on this. ! > ! > Where is it and when and what can I expect to find there? ! > ! > ! > ! > ! From pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com Fri Sep 28 09:54:01 2001 From: pechter at bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com (Bill Pechter) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question In-Reply-To: <3BB48040.E9BBA738@idirect.com> from Jerome Fine at "Sep 28, 2001 09:50:56 am" Message-ID: <200109281454.f8SEsss00553@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> > >Bill Pechter wrote: > > > One guy in Sweden put a uVaxII in the VT100 with IIRC a DZV11. > > I had the wire list for the backplane mods but I think I lost it. > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Why did DEC not make such low cost systems available for hobby > users? Bad management, no vision. The VT103 supply barely was enough for the 11/23 and was designed to handle stuff like hasp printing at IBM shops via RSX11-S downloaded apps with network booting. Bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 28 10:03:18 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables In-Reply-To: <200109280926.f8S9QTo16749@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: <200109281503.RAA19243@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On 28 Sep, Eric Dittman wrote: > Yes, but if the connectors on both ends are the same I would be > able to use a SCSI cable to go from the 4000 to the HSD05. Yes. But SCSI cables are often twisted pair (pins 1+25, 2+26, 3+27, ...) so depending on the DSSI pinout it may be possible that different DSSI signals go on the same twisted pair. This can lead to interference if the cables are long. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Sep 28 11:03:21 2001 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: KXJ11-CA / M7616 doc wanted. Message-ID: <200109281603.SAA19369@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. I have this nice KXJ11-CA but I have no clue how to use it. I was able to get to the ODT prompt, but nothing else. I need pinouts, jumper descriptions, memory map (where are the EPROMs?), ... How to use that digital IO port? ... My idea is to use it in a my MicroVAX 4000-200 with the VAX as "frontend processor". So I would be able to run NetBSD/vax and perhaps 2.9BSD in the same box. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 28 11:10:24 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: Re: Calc wars (Mike Ford) References: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <15284.41200.594073.421888@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 27, Mike Ford wrote: > > Man, you're hangin' out in the wrong places. I haven't laid eyes on > >a Windoze box in months. > > REALLY? I saw about 1000 in a scrap yard today on pallets waiting to be > recycled, lovely site. ;) Ahh, fit for a painting on a wall. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From dittman at dittman.net Fri Sep 28 11:16:25 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: DSSI Cables In-Reply-To: from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Sep 28, 2001 05:03:18 PM Message-ID: <200109281616.f8SGGPQ17596@narnia.int.dittman.net> > > Yes, but if the connectors on both ends are the same I would be > > able to use a SCSI cable to go from the 4000 to the HSD05. > Yes. But SCSI cables are often twisted pair (pins 1+25, 2+26, 3+27, > ...) so depending on the DSSI pinout it may be possible that different > DSSI signals go on the same twisted pair. This can lead to > interference if the cables are long. That is true. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From rhblakeman at kih.net Fri Sep 28 11:40:43 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: FS: Radio Shack EC-4075 Calc Message-ID: Here's something I go some time ago (years ago, probably 1988) that I have absolutely NO use for an the recent talk about calcs has me wondering if anyone might want to add this to their collection, or has an actual use for it. It's a Radio Shack EC-4075 "Programmer's Hex and Time Calculator", catalog number 65-990. It's in good clean shape but no docs, box or anything else. It's fully finctional too - has batteries (2xAA) in it and showing the date and time right now. It's just excess and it's bound to get damaged around here or set in a drawer where the batteries will undoubtedly leak and ruin it. Size is 3" wide, 5" long and 1" at the thickest point. Make me an offer. It will ship without the batteries though to save weight and prevent damage. Weight is probably a pound packed and would be shipped in bubble wrap in a sturdy box. Not sure if it would be cost effective to ship overseas but the US and Canada are alright for sure. Be reasonable on offers, $1 is not reasonable. My wife bought this for me back then and while I forget what it cost then I know it wasn't a $5 item. Contact me direct if interested at rhblakeman@kih.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010928/a046032c/attachment.html From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 28 12:33:09 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: Framebuffers Message-ID: Hi. Does anyone have a comparison of the performance of the various DEC turbochannel framebuffers? Even a listing of the faster ones would help. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 12:26:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:15 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928012353.00a93bf8@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Sep 28, 1 01:32:01 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 3449 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010928/8ca373e5/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 12:47:51 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) In-Reply-To: <20010928044428.MVA10309.imf09bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 28, 1 00:42:46 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2209 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010928/3edf1982/attachment.ksh From vance at ikickass.org Fri Sep 28 14:29:32 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: FDDI Cards Message-ID: Anyone know where I might be able to find DEC DEFPA's, DEC DEFTA's, IBM FDDI/MC's and thing of the like? Peace... Sridhar From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 28 14:44:40 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question In-Reply-To: <200109281454.f8SEsss00553@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> References: <3BB48040.E9BBA738@idirect.com> from Jerome Fine at "Sep 28, 2001 09:50:56 am" Message-ID: >> >Bill Pechter wrote: >> >> > One guy in Sweden put a uVaxII in the VT100 with IIRC a DZV11. >> > I had the wire list for the backplane mods but I think I lost it. >> >> Jerome Fine replies: >> >> Why did DEC not make such low cost systems available for hobby >> users? > >Bad management, no vision. The VT103 supply barely was enough >for the 11/23 and was designed to handle stuff like hasp >printing at IBM shops via RSX11-S downloaded apps with network booting. What about the Terak? From mikeford at socal.rr.com Fri Sep 28 14:50:59 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Calc wars In-Reply-To: <15284.41200.594073.421888@phaduka.neurotica.com> References: Re: Calc wars (Mike Ford) <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD37225795@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> <000001c1479d$c0de0d60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: >On September 27, Mike Ford wrote: >> > Man, you're hangin' out in the wrong places. I haven't laid eyes on >> >a Windoze box in months. >> >> REALLY? I saw about 1000 in a scrap yard today on pallets waiting to be >> recycled, lovely site. ;) > > Ahh, fit for a painting on a wall. :-) [Pardon the shift to Conan the Destroyer mode] What is best is life? A mountain of Wintel machines in front of you. A powerdrill in your right hand, chip puller in the left, and plenty of empty parts bins. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Fri Sep 28 16:33:59 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: ard@p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) "Re: CBM8032 - wobbly screen" (Sep 28, 18:26) References: Message-ID: <10109282233.ZM26511@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 28, 18:26, Tony Duell wrote: > Now, the 8032 uses a 6845 CRT controller chip IIRC. It sets the sync > frequencies. Maybe it's configured differently on UK and US machines. > Maybe, therefore, one of the ROMs is different between UK and US machines > (I don't recall any setup links on the CPU board to configure this, as > some other manufacturers used). Does anybody know if UK PETs have 50Hz > vertical display systems? If they do, then you might need a dump of the > appropriate ROMs. It does use a 6845, and it does still run at 60Hz. At least, the ones I've worked on are 60Hz and I think the 4000 series did too; I don't know if that changed in any later models. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From avickers at solutionengineers.com Fri Sep 28 16:51:31 2001 From: avickers at solutionengineers.com (Adrian Vickers) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928012353.00a93bf8@192.168.1.2> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> At 18:26 28/09/2001, Tony Duell wrote: >But I've >never seen a PET fitted with one of those. OK, I'll go with you on that one. I'm basing my dual-tap idea on the fact there's three lugs on the input side; I'd guessed that one might deliver 1/2 the voltage. I've not tested it in any meaningful way. >There are several possibilites. > >Firstly, we have 50Hz mains, the US has 60Hz mains. Therefore, for a >given load current, smoothing capacitor value, and so on, there is more >ripple on a PSU in the UK than in the States. I doubt it's that marginal >('rock steady' -> 'wobbling' sounds a lot more than 'marginal'), but it >can't hurt to check. I'm guessing there must be a rectifier up in the monitor, since that only takes 20vac. Last time I looked, there's no really big caps up there (unlike the one in the main case); maybe the VDU supply is more plausibly marginal than the mainboard? To give you some idea of the wobble - it's oscillating through around 1mm, possibly a shade less. It's quite a rapid wobble - not 50 times a second though. It seems pretty consistent across the whole screen, but possibly slightly worse on the side of the main transformer. There's also a noticable downward bend on the top line which doesn't seem to be present on the bottom line. However, I went crosseyed trying to look at it.... I'll have to set my camera up to shoot a short movie of it, so I can do a frame-by-frame analysis of the motion (assuming that's necessary). >Secondly, stray magnetic fields from the transformer could be affecting >the dispaly (by deflecting the electron beam -- electrons are not smart >enough to realise they should only be deflected by the fields from the >yoke :-)). Did you mount the new transformer in the same position _and >orientation_ as the original one. Yes - I've not unmounted the transformer from its base plate, so I've no choice about orientation. However, it may be orientated incorrectly on the base plate of course.... Also, it's worth noting that the US transformer is a different layout anyway (primary inside secondary, I think). >Thirdly, the machine might be designed to accommodate stray fields and/or >ripple _at a particular frequency_. Typically the vertical deflection >frequency of the display will be the same as the mains frequency, so >although the ripple/stray fields will make the image slightly >non-straight, it won't wobble. It's definitely wobbling, although as noted above there's some distortion as well (actually, there's slight pincushion on all four sides). >Now, the 8032 uses a 6845 CRT controller chip IIRC. It sets the sync >frequencies. Maybe it's configured differently on UK and US machines. >Maybe, therefore, one of the ROMs is different between UK and US machines >(I don't recall any setup links on the CPU board to configure this, as >some other manufacturers used). Does anybody know if UK PETs have 50Hz >vertical display systems? If they do, then you might need a dump of the >appropriate ROMs. Hmm. The wobble is no different on the UK & US machines; so I'd be tempted to not believe this is the case. The voltage plates are on the chassis of the machine, as opposed to the transformer carrier (which is where they'd make more sense IMHO), so I know the UK machine really *is* a UK machine. > > I genuinely don't know. That's the only part I've swapped in the new 8032. > > Could a flakey transformer be making the screen wobble? How do > transformers > > go flakey anyway, if indeed they *can* co flakey? Or is the US chap > telling > >Very unlikely. Transformers fail by open-circuit windings (no output) or >shorts between turns (wrong output and the thing gets _very_ hot), or >shorts from the windings to the core (ditto, sometimes blown fuses). >Overloading a transformer might saturate the core and increase the stray >field, but I think this is a very unlikely problem. OK. There's no extraneous heat that I can detect, so presumably - unless its in saturation - it's OK. What I'll do next week is trace all the power wiring, so I've got some idea of what pin (on the PSU connector) is doing what, which will give my multimeter something to look at. And, I get an Oscilloscope on the 13th October (huzzah!), so I'll point that at it as well; make sure the waveform looks right. Meantime, I've got a 3.5hr drive to do now, and it's late... -- Cheers, Ade. Be where it's at, B-Racing! http://b-racing.co.uk -------------- next part -------------- --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.281 / Virus Database: 149 - Release Date: 18/09/2001 From optimus at canit.se Wed Sep 26 17:19:16 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Apple II 800K Diskettes? In-Reply-To: <7A9BACCEF0171D4FB77019F5104CDD3722578C@jeffserver.tegjeff.com> Message-ID: <605.669T800T13994301optimus@canit.se> Douglas Quebbeman skrev: >> Why do people insist on calling them 720 K disks? There is no such stupid >> invention. They're 1 MB disks, not 720 K, not 800 K, not 880 K. >> Oh, and there are no 1.44 MB disks either. >True, they're not 1.44, they're 2MB... you can actually get 1.8MB on >on if you plow out the wind breaks... I've had some luck with 1.68 >and 1.72 formatting, but the 1.8 is pretty chancy... Amiga HD disks are 1.76 MB by default. And that's without any cheap tricks like using more than 80 tracks and the such. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Give your child mental blocks for Christmas. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 28 17:33:18 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question In-Reply-To: from "David Woyciesjes" at Sep 28, 2001 10:29:42 AM Message-ID: <200109282233.f8SMXIb04033@shell1.aracnet.com> > ! Sounds like I need to either find a smaller PowerSupply, or > ! else I'm going to have to have it external to the system > ! (which I don't want). > > What about taking the power supply out of the metal case? (Re)build a power > supply to fit? Also, I have seen some pretty small ATX power supplies. about > 1/2 to 2/3 the size of an AT PSU... If I don't find a smaller PS tomorrow, that's probably what I'll do. The thing is I'd kind of like to keep the one I have intact to use for something else. On a positive note, yesterday I tracked the system freezes down to 'kdm' (the KDE version of xdm) and then discovered there was also a daily cronjob set to run at 12:15am that would also lock up the system. So I've corrected those problems (removed them actually since I don't have any use for either) and now have the board running happily with only a HD and Monitor plugged in (and I don't see any problem disconnecting the monitor, if nothing else I've got a plug I can stick in to make it think it still has one). So, I'm down to needing to get a VT100 out of storage tomorrow if I can find the time. Zane From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 28 17:22:36 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010928221144.00aaa2d0@192.168.1.2> from "Adrian Vickers" at Sep 28, 1 10:51:31 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4316 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010928/d1c3add0/attachment.ksh From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 28 18:53:05 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest In-Reply-To: <002401c147bd$e5ba2fe0$c362d6d1@DOMAIN> References: <200109280004.UAA19906@blount.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010928195305.007ac100@mailhost.intellistar.net> I'm bringing a pile of Timex stuff along with a bunch of EXOR bus and S-100 bus cards that I don't need. Also a plie of books. I may bring my extra Sonyt/Tektronix 336(?) logic analyzer (any serious interest in this?) I'm also bringing a TRS model 100 and a model 102 and a pile of Grid computers (1350s and 1355s), an extra lunch box computer with a gas plasma screen for parts (no keyboard) and a pile of docs and an assembler for the Mil Spec 1750 CPU. I'll bring more if I have time to dig it out. I'm looking for parts for my Altair and any bug books that I don't have. Joe At 09:35 PM 9/27/01 -0400, you wrote: >From: Louis Schulman >> Hope to see everyone there! > >I'm looking forward to meeting everyone there too. Please send some email >off list and let me know what you're bringing and want. > >;) >- Mike: dogas@bellsouth.net > > > > > > From jhellige at earthlink.net Fri Sep 28 19:47:02 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: CBM8032 - wobbly screen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >See the photos of the Commodore Educator 64, Model 4064 at >http://www.swtpc.com/commodor.htm . I remember the general position of the >power transformer is similar to the Pets. Note the shielding of the >transformer in the photos. This was used to prevent the problem which you >are describing, and if this shielding is removed the wobble will occur. Try >placing a shaded pole motor or large transformer anywhere near the sides or >back of a modern monitor and you'll see the same wobbling effect. When did the PETs start using all the shielding? My 2001-16N has none of the shielding your Educator64 shows. Transformer, mainboard and even the keyboard are all bare. While looking at the shielding, I powered mine up for the first time since I moved about a year ago and now it's screen shape is distorted and it shows evenly spaced vertical bars all the way across. Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rigdonj at intellistar.net Fri Sep 28 19:53:41 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Central FL Computer Junk Fest In-Reply-To: <9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA61501467114@yalepress3.unipre ss.yale.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010928205341.007a7cb0@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 10:33 AM 9/28/01 -0400, you wrote: >Hmmm, is there going to be one up here around Connecticut sometime? Sure, if you'll organize it. Joe From jhfine at idirect.com Fri Sep 28 19:55:31 2001 From: jhfine at idirect.com (Jerome Fine) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Odd VT100 question References: <200109281454.f8SEsss00553@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> Message-ID: <3BB51C03.C9A89C5C@idirect.com> >Bill Pechter wrote: > > Jerome Fine replies: > > Why did DEC not make such low cost systems available for hobby > > users? > Bad management, no vision. The VT103 supply barely was enough > for the 11/23 and was designed to handle stuff like hasp > printing at IBM shops via RSX11-S downloaded apps with network booting. Jerome Fine replies: I think the manual says 16 A on the 5 Volts and much less on the 12 volts. About 10 years ago, just for fun, I put in a quad 11/73, 4 MBytes of non-DEC memory, a quad ESDI controller and a DHV11. I only ran it for 15 minutes since that was probably stretching the power supply. As I said, the ESDI hard drives were connected to a cable out the back and ran on their own PC power supply, each with its own fan. Prior to that it had been running with a dual 11/73, DLV11-J, 1/2 MByte of memory and a 3rd party MFM controller that did MSCP - a total of 2 1/2 slots. the hard happened to be an RD53 and it was under the tube. Obviously, the backplane had been upgraded from 18-bits to 22-bits by the addition of 4 wires soldered to the backplane - 8 spots for each. I think I acquired my first VT103 around 1989. Were the VT103s first produced around 1980? Since all four quad slots were ABAB, that allowed up to 8 dual boards. Which was almost equal to the BA11 with 9 slots - all ABCD. As for DEC, they seemed to be afraid of producing something that was was both small and inexpensive. Essentially, the VT103 was a small but complete PDP-11 that could run any of the operating systems quite well, especially when the backplane was upgraded to 22-bits. Did DEC ever sell any that they had upgraded to use 22 bits themselves? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cmansure at rt66.com Fri Sep 28 20:18:34 2001 From: cmansure at rt66.com (Chip Mansure) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Silent 700 Tape Message-ID: <003d01c14884$a9fb0d90$a7b03bc6@rt66.com> I have a caset tape created with a Silent 700. Is there anywhere I can get it converted into a ASCII file. From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Fri Sep 28 22:23:34 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010928232334.01ce8928@obregon.multi.net.co> Today I came by an RS6000 7012-320H (Powerserver 320). On topic, since it was introduced in '91. It seems to have 16MB RAM, a SCSI card, an 800MB HD, 25MHZ cpu and a 8-port serial card. No framebuffer. There was an 8mm tape unit that came with it. Oh, and, from what I can gather from the IBM web site, it is missing some sort of "ethernet riser card" which seems to provide the means to drive enet starting from a network header on the mainboard. I should be getting some of the terminals that were hooked to this beast. However, I have neither keys nor AIX install media. So I have several questions: 1) Which OS' (besides some old version of AIX) run on this box? Or, if I am stuck with AIX, in addition to praying that the HD is still alive, how could I break in and change the root password? 2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have a network-less system? 3) Late last year, I posted a message to this list about some SIMMs that I grabbed off an AS400 system; they look like 72pin SIMMs but have a slightly different form factor and won't fit in a standard 72 pin socket. The thing is, they seem to fit the sockets in this system. And, that AS400 was equipped with exactly the same model of HD that this RS6000 has. So I am wondering if those 4MB SIMMS will fit this system, which is filled with 2MB SIMMS... carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From curt at atari-history.com Fri Sep 28 23:24:31 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Pre-Ebay Offer References: <200109281454.f8SEsss00553@bg-tc-ppp1657.monmouth.com> <3BB51C03.C9A89C5C@idirect.com> Message-ID: <000901c1489e$a2a96e50$c2609040@syzygy2> Hi, I'm preparing to move and while packing I ran across several VHS tapes which I would like to offer to the mailing list first before considering Ebay, all tapes are $5 each plus shipping or all for $30 plus shipping: MS Win NT Training (The Domain Enviroment) IBM AS/400 Advanced Server 1994 Challenge Lotus Notes: Fastest Way to Responsive Organization IBM PS/2 Model L40 SX Laptop Service Training Compaq STIMAC Video 1 & 2 (9/21/93) Compaq Removal & Replacement Procedures for the LTE Apple 100 Macintosh Service Course April 1990 (The Shocking Truth) Apple 100 Macintosh Service Course April 1990 (Intro to Apple Service Training) From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 28 23:37:08 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) Message-ID: <20010929043853.OMAX1867.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > The ULA does a lot more than handle the display ;>) > > CPU clock generation (which would be useful). Address decoding (which I'd > want to modify if I was changing the amount of RAM). Very interesting -- how much RAM are you talking about adding that you have to modify the address decoding? > > Of course not ;>) But a ZX81 kit is still faster than starting from > > scratch. > > Is it? It's not going to take long to wire-wrap a clock circuit and > address decoder, and stick in the Z80. It depends _very much_ on how much > of the ZX81 you want to use... Which in turn depends on what the intended use of the finished device is. Since I want a "general purpose" computer the ROM BASIC functions are very convenient, and fast if called directly. Other applications of the Z80 would not need this code so a quickie Z80 board would be fine. > > Try desoldering the RF modulator from a ZX81 board ;>) > > Well, I had never tried to do it before, so I grabbed a ZX81, What, do you have a pile of these? > unscrewed > the case and attacked it with soldering iron and sucker. > > What's the catch? In the US versions which have 3 thin wires, they sometimes become brittle and break. Tony (and others), a question: in your opinion, which microprocessor was the most well-designed (even if not implemented)? Glen 0/0 From jolminkh at bigpond.net.au Sat Sep 29 02:23:46 2001 From: jolminkh at bigpond.net.au (Hans Olminkhof) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Unusual Diskettes - Niniendo References: <003d01c14884$a9fb0d90$a7b03bc6@rt66.com> Message-ID: <000601c148b7$ae3af900$3adc8490@nsw.bigpond.net.au> I have come across a box full of unusual diskettes. Obviously japanese in origin, probably for some sort of games console. Many have the brand "Niniendo" moulded into the casing. http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/hanso.rm/vwp2?.tok=bcv_P37AchwgA2CB&.dir=/My+Phot os&.dnm=Niniendo.jpg&.src=ph Anyone seen these before? Hans From enrico.badella at softstar.it Sat Sep 29 03:17:35 2001 From: enrico.badella at softstar.it (Enrico Badella) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H References: <3.0.2.32.20010928232334.01ce8928@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3BB5839F.BC27BB71@softstar.it> Carlos Murillo wrote: [snip] > 1) Which OS' (besides some old version of AIX) run on this > box? Or, if I am stuck with AIX, in addition to > praying that the HD is still alive, how could I > break in and change the root password? I'm afraid you are stuck with AIX (which is not such a bad OS) because the 320H is a MCI machine and the last time I looked for alternatives I didn't find any. If you don't expect to run X11 the 320H with AIX 4.2.1 is decent nothing to write home about .... > 2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have > a network-less system? Mine came with an Ethernet card with AUI and BNC. It is a standard MCI card. > 3) Late last year, I posted a message to this list about > some SIMMs that I grabbed off an AS400 system; they > look like 72pin SIMMs but have a slightly different > form factor and won't fit in a standard 72 pin socket. > The thing is, they seem to fit the sockets in this > system. And, that AS400 was equipped with exactly the > same model of HD that this RS6000 has. So I am > wondering if those 4MB SIMMS will fit this system, > which is filled with 2MB SIMMS... Don't know! All I found out with my different RS6000/PowerPC boxes is that RAM is not interchangeable (thanks big blue!!) Only my 7011/250 was satisfied with some PC memeory Cheers e. ======================================================================== Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella@softstar.it Soft*Star srl eb@vax.cnuce.cnr.it InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 10143 Torino, Italy Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals ========================================================================== From optimus at canit.se Sat Sep 29 05:50:30 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation Message-ID: <1149.672T1500T7105129optimus@canit.se> Our DECstation 3100 has been in a sad state recently. Both the monitor (that old monochrome thing without a stand which was used with the VS2000 amongst others) and the keyboard (LK201) had given up the gist (the monitor would just make a flickery sound, without the CRT coming alive, the keyboard didn't blink and the console would blink "??" when it reached test 3). I plugged in a Nokia monitor, which worked, if you can live with the green picture, and another LK201. That worked for a while, but when I managed to boot it (NFS wasn't so cooperative this day), and reached X, the mouse just stopped moving after a while. I rebooted it, and suddenly this keyboard had died as well. What the hell is going on? Is it possible to save the LK201s? We're running short of DEC keyboards as it is, and we certainly don't need this. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful feature, that. - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation From optimus at canit.se Sat Sep 29 06:00:33 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Unusual Diskettes - Niniendo In-Reply-To: <000601c148b7$ae3af900$3adc8490@nsw.bigpond.net.au> Message-ID: <1401.672T1650T7205263optimus@canit.se> Hans Olminkhof skrev: >I have come across a box full of unusual diskettes. Obviously japanese in >origin, probably for some sort of games console. Many have the brand >"Niniendo" moulded into the casing. >http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/hanso.rm/vwp2?.tok=bcv_P37AchwgA2CB&.dir=/My+Phot >os&.dnm=Niniendo.jpg&.src=ph >Anyone seen these before? I'm sory, but the URL goes to a "restricted area". Without seeing the picture, though, I'd wager those are 2,8" disks (similar to the 3" disks used on Amstrads and Speccys) for the Nintendo disk system. Apparently, ROM cassettes were deemed as too expensive at the time, so in order to accomodate bigger games at a price friendly to children, Nintendo produced a disk drive for the Famicom/NES, for which you could get games on disk, and when you grew bored of the game, you could go to the shop and have the disk reloaded with another game. I've read that Nintendo still offers this service at a price of 400 yen. That's what I call good support. =) Sharp made a hybrid Famicom clone (on licence, of course) with built-in disk drive. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. "But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia." - Theo de Raadt From owad at applefritter.com Sat Sep 29 08:28:46 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Pre-Ebay Offer In-Reply-To: <000901c1489e$a2a96e50$c2609040@syzygy2> References: <000901c1489e$a2a96e50$c2609040@syzygy2> Message-ID: <20010929132846.1729@mail.lafayette.edu> Hi Curt, I have yet to receive the Canon Cat video and papers we agreed were included with the Canon Cat I purchased from you at VCFe several months ago. What's the problem? Sincerely, Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From owad at applefritter.com Sat Sep 29 08:29:33 2001 From: owad at applefritter.com (Tom Owad) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Pre-Ebay Offer In-Reply-To: <20010929132846.1729@mail.lafayette.edu> References: <20010929132846.1729@mail.lafayette.edu> Message-ID: <20010929132933.27694@mail.lafayette.edu> >I have yet to receive the Canon Cat... That was supposed to be a private message. I'm so sorry. Tom Applefritter www.applefritter.com From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 29 08:21:59 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: <1149.672T1500T7105129optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: >Our DECstation 3100 has been in a sad state recently. Both the monitor (that >old monochrome thing without a stand which was used with the VS2000 amongst If this was a mac I would say the cmos battery was going bad. From fernande at internet1.net Sat Sep 29 09:19:32 2001 From: fernande at internet1.net (Chad Fernandez) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H References: <3.0.2.32.20010928232334.01ce8928@obregon.multi.net.co> <3BB5839F.BC27BB71@softstar.it> Message-ID: <3BB5D874.13E96A12@internet1.net> It's Microchannel. MCI is a long distance telephone service company :-) Chad Fernandez Michigan, USA Enrico Badella wrote: > I'm afraid you are stuck with AIX (which is not such a bad OS) > because the 320H is a MCI machine and the last time I looked > for alternatives I didn't find any. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat Sep 29 09:21:15 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010928232334.01ce8928@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > 1) Which OS' (besides some old version of AIX) run on this > box? Or, if I am stuck with AIX, in addition to > praying that the HD is still alive, how could I > break in and change the root password? Recent versions of AIX will run, with 64MB and a compatible (or non-existent) framebuffer. > 2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have > a network-less system? There's probably an ethernet chip on the main board which just needs the AUI/BNC logic on the riser card added to work. You should be able to get a Microchannel enet card for cheap watching on ebay if you can't find the riser. > 3) Late last year, I posted a message to this list about > some SIMMs that I grabbed off an AS400 system; they > look like 72pin SIMMs but have a slightly different > form factor and won't fit in a standard 72 pin socket. > The thing is, they seem to fit the sockets in this > system. And, that AS400 was equipped with exactly the > same model of HD that this RS6000 has. So I am > wondering if those 4MB SIMMS will fit this system, > which is filled with 2MB SIMMS... The IBM sales manual might help, plug in the part numbers for your machines: http://www2.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?xh=jN7O$Vn32jOgss0USenGnN9332&request=usa.salesmanual&parms=&xhi=usa%2emain&xfr=N From workstations at poczta.onet.pl Sat Sep 29 09:28:14 2001 From: workstations at poczta.onet.pl (Jacek Artymiak) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Still looking Message-ID: <002d01c148f2$f98c6de0$05ffa8c0@hx.com> Hi, I am still looking for the Digital Alpha 233 MHz 21066A CPU. I am interested in buying it or swapping it for the following Alpha hardware: 2x Digital Alpha 166 MHz 21066 CPU 1x Digital Alpha 233 MHz 21064BB CPU 1x Digital Alpha 266 MHz 21164AA CPU 1x Digital PBXGA video card 1x Digital PBXGB video card Best Regards, Jacek Artymiak -- Zagraj z finalistkami Miss Polonia [ http://miss.onet.pl/start.html ] From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 29 10:27:12 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Radio Shack EC-4075 Calc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This has been spoken for... -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Russ Blakeman Sent: Friday, September 28, 2001 11:41 AM To: Classic computers message group Subject: FS: Radio Shack EC-4075 Calc Here's something I go some time ago (years ago, probably 1988) that I have absolutely NO use for an the recent talk about calcs has me wondering if anyone might want to add this to their collection, or has an actual use for it. It's a Radio Shack EC-4075 "Programmer's Hex and Time Calculator", catalog number 65-990. It's in good clean shape but no docs, box or anything else. It's fully finctional too - has batteries (2xAA) in it and showing the date and time right now. It's just excess and it's bound to get damaged around here or set in a drawer where the batteries will undoubtedly leak and ruin it. Size is 3" wide, 5" long and 1" at the thickest point. Make me an offer. It will ship without the batteries though to save weight and prevent damage. Weight is probably a pound packed and would be shipped in bubble wrap in a sturdy box. Not sure if it would be cost effective to ship overseas but the US and Canada are alright for sure. Be reasonable on offers, $1 is not reasonable. My wife bought this for me back then and while I forget what it cost then I know it wasn't a $5 item. Contact me direct if interested at rhblakeman@kih.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010929/f47e5361/attachment.html From hans at Huebner.ORG Sat Sep 29 11:12:07 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Paul Thompson wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > 1) Which OS' (besides some old version of AIX) run on this > > box? Or, if I am stuck with AIX, in addition to > > praying that the HD is still alive, how could I > > break in and change the root password? > Recent versions of AIX will run, with 64MB and a compatible (or > non-existent) framebuffer. The real issue with the 320 is the fact that it is very picky about the CDROM drives it wants to boot from. I tried quite a few drives with 512 bytes block size which work with other workstations (even RS/6000's), but I had no luck. The only drive mine liked to boot from was an original IBM double speed drive I borrowed from a friend (and sadly, he really wanted to keep it). To get rid of the root password, you'll need to boot from an external AIX medium in service mode. Given the CDROM problem, you have the option of connecting a tape drive (again, it will be hard finding one that works) or booting from floppy disk. To make suitable boot media, though, you'll need to have someone with a similar system and OS release create them for you. I can't, as my 320 is gone for the 39H I now have. > > 2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have > > a network-less system? > There's probably an ethernet chip on the main board which just needs the > AUI/BNC logic on the riser card added to work. You should be able to get > a Microchannel enet card for cheap watching on ebay if you can't find the > riser. I don't think that the 320 really supports a Ethernet raiser card. The 340 has such a thing, but I have not seen any supporting hardware in the 320. If you want to get a MCA Ethernet card, you cannot just use any of the standard PS/2 cards which are easily available. You will not find any AIX drivers for these cards. You absolutely need a special RS/6000 MCA Ethernet card. These are harder to find. Once you get the machine up and accept your login, it is a pretty neat machine. Getting it to run can be a real pain, though. Good luck, Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat Sep 29 11:47:38 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Hans H?bner wrote: > Once you get the machine up and accept your login, it is a pretty neat > machine. Getting it to run can be a real pain, though. This statement seems true of all the old Microchannel RS6k's I've worked with. I have worked on a 7011-220 and 7015-990/R30/R40/R5u they have been a pain. Disaster recovery testing with a 7015 is a frusterating, time consuming mess. My 220 at home has a mirrored system disk in the hope of never having to attempt to install AIX fresh from CD. The more recent 7024/7025 PCI machines I have worked with seem much better. -- From Diff at Mac.com Sat Sep 29 12:34:11 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation References: <1149.672T1500T7105129optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <003c01c1490c$f6564a50$6401a8c0@laboffice> Test 3 is "keyboard and mouse bad", I would suggest hooking up a terminal, and plugging in a mouse terminator (if you dont have one, connect ports 2 and 4 together with a paper clip), it should boot to console and not hang up on the mouse and keyboard test. If you just hook up a terminal, it wont work. I have no clue what the underlying problem is that is causing all your problems. That help? Zach ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Classic computing" Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 6:50 AM Subject: Bad bad DECstation > Our DECstation 3100 has been in a sad state recently. Both the monitor (that > old monochrome thing without a stand which was used with the VS2000 amongst > others) and the keyboard (LK201) had given up the gist (the monitor would just > make a flickery sound, without the CRT coming alive, the keyboard didn't blink > and the console would blink "??" when it reached test 3). > I plugged in a Nokia monitor, which worked, if you can live with the green > picture, and another LK201. That worked for a while, but when I managed to > boot it (NFS wasn't so cooperative this day), and reached X, the mouse just > stopped moving after a while. I rebooted it, and suddenly this keyboard had > died as well. > What the hell is going on? Is it possible to save the LK201s? We're running > short of DEC keyboards as it is, and we certainly don't need this. > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > If the designers of X-Windows built cars, there would be no fewer than five > steering wheels hidden about the cockpit, none of which followed the same > principles -- but you'd be able to shift gears with your car stereo. Useful > feature, that. > - Marus J. Ranum, Digital Equipment Corporation > From Diff at Mac.com Sat Sep 29 13:15:20 2001 From: Diff at Mac.com (Zach Malone) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: IBM 4965 Message-ID: <000901c14912$b5e6b800$6401a8c0@laboffice> Hello, I have been offered a rather large collection of machines, including an IBM PC with the original monitor, and an IBM 4965 with an 8" floppy drive. The 4965 is mounted in a large white rack, with a power supply mounted at the bottom, and the cover has been removed from the power supply, Anyone know anything about these machines? It looks as though all the original disks and documentation is there, but I am wondering whether its worth my time to clean this up. Zach From at258 at osfn.org Sat Sep 29 13:35:14 2001 From: at258 at osfn.org (Merle K. Peirce) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: IBM 4965 In-Reply-To: <000901c14912$b5e6b800$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: Isn't the 4965 a later Series 1? On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Zach Malone wrote: > Hello, > I have been offered a rather large collection of machines, including an > IBM PC with the original monitor, and an IBM 4965 with an 8" floppy drive. > The 4965 is mounted in a large white rack, with a power supply mounted at > the bottom, and the cover has been removed from the power supply, Anyone > know anything about these machines? It looks as though all the original > disks and documentation is there, but I am wondering whether its worth my > time to clean this up. > Zach > > M. K. Peirce Rhode Island Computer Museum, Inc. Shady Lea, Rhode Island "Casta est quam nemo rogavit." - Ovid From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Sep 29 12:43:32 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010929134332.00f373e0@obregon.multi.net.co> At 06:12 PM 9/29/01 +0200, Hans wrote: >The real issue with the 320 is the fact that it is very picky about the CDROM >drives it wants to boot from. I tried quite a few drives with 512 bytes block >size which work with other workstations (even RS/6000's), but I had no luck. >The only drive mine liked to boot from was an original IBM double speed drive >I borrowed from a friend (and sadly, he really wanted to keep it). This is a 320H machine; apparently, there are some real differences; for example, the 320 is 20MHz, the 320H is 25MHz; also, I think that the 320 did not include a scsi card in the default configuration. This does. >To get rid of the root password, you'll need to boot from an external AIX >medium in service mode. Given the CDROM problem, you have the option of >connecting a tape drive (again, it will be hard finding one that works) or >booting from floppy disk. To make suitable boot media, though, you'll need to >have someone with a similar system and OS release create them for you. I >can't, as my 320 is gone for the 39H I now have. Oh. I wonder if a genuine DEC CDROM will work... I have one for my Vaxstation 4000/60. And I do have the 7208-001 8mm tape drive for this rs6k. >I don't think that the 320 really supports a Ethernet raiser card. The 340 >has such a thing, but I have not seen any supporting hardware in the 320. > >If you want to get a MCA Ethernet card, you cannot just use any of the >standard PS/2 cards which are easily available. You will not find any AIX >drivers for these cards. You absolutely need a special RS/6000 MCA Ethernet >card. These are harder to find. > >Once you get the machine up and accept your login, it is a pretty neat >machine. Getting it to run can be a real pain, though. > >Good luck, >Hans Thanks! looks like I'll need lots of it. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co Sat Sep 29 12:38:15 2001 From: cmurillo at emtelsa.multi.net.co (Carlos Murillo) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.2.32.20010928232334.01ce8928@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.20010929133815.00fed0a8@obregon.multi.net.co> At 09:21 AM 9/29/01 -0500, Paul Thompson wrote: >Recent versions of AIX will run, with 64MB and a compatible (or >non-existent) framebuffer. uh oh. The machine has 16MB; if I completely replace the SIMMs with the ones I have (assuming they fit this beast) then it will have 32MB. >> 2) What exactly is this "ethernet riser card"? Do I have >> a network-less system? >There's probably an ethernet chip on the main board which just needs the >AUI/BNC logic on the riser card added to work. You should be able to get >a Microchannel enet card for cheap watching on ebay if you can't find the >riser. Hans pointed out that not just any MCA card will do; it has to be specifically for RS6k. >The IBM sales manual might help, plug in the part numbers for your >machines: >http://www2.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?xh=jN7O$Vn32jOgss0USenGnN9332&re quest=usa.salesmanual&parms=&xhi=usa%2emain&xfr=N Thanks! carlos. -------------------------------------------------------------- Carlos E. Murillo-Sanchez carlos_murillo@nospammers.ieee.org From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 29 14:19:54 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Still looking In-Reply-To: from "Jacek Artymiak" at Sep 29, 2001 04:28:14 PM Message-ID: <200109291919.f8TJJse02445@narnia.int.dittman.net> > I am still looking for the Digital Alpha 233 MHz 21066A CPU. I am > interested > in buying it or swapping it for the following Alpha hardware: > > 1x Digital Alpha 233 MHz 21064BB CPU > 1x Digital Alpha 266 MHz 21164AA CPU Both of these are faster than the 21066A CPU. Perhaps you should look for a motherboard for either of these processors instead of the 21066A CPU. -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 14:09:00 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) In-Reply-To: <20010929043853.OMAX1867.imf15bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 29, 1 00:37:08 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2593 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010929/ddb35829/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 14:15:24 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: <1149.672T1500T7105129optimus@canit.se> from "Iggy Drougge" at Sep 29, 1 11:50:30 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 745 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010929/a0fe3f9e/attachment.ksh From hans at Huebner.ORG Sat Sep 29 15:16:50 2001 From: hans at Huebner.ORG (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hans_H=FCbner?=) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010929134332.00f373e0@obregon.multi.net.co> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > This is a 320H machine; apparently, there are some real differences; > for example, the 320 is 20MHz, the 320H is 25MHz; also, I think that the > 320 did not include a scsi card in the default configuration. > This does. My 320 had an SCSI card and as the motherboard does not include any disk interface, I doubt that there are many 320's without SCSI cards. As far as I know, the only difference between the 320 and the 320H is the processor speed. The 340, in contrast, includes on-board SCSI and Ethernet, has a faster processor and - yeah! - standard DB25 serial connectors instead of the proprietary jacks the 320 has. The 340 somehow looks like the 320 "done right". > Oh. I wonder if a genuine DEC CDROM will work... It will not work. Cheers, Hans -- finger hans@huebner.org for details From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sat Sep 29 15:59:44 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: <000901c14912$b5e6b800$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: Today was a pretty good day at the TRW hamfest in LA. I found a few mac curiosities, and a few items I can pass on to list members or eBay. Reasonable offers, get treated reasonably. Boxes of 10 8" floppies 8 sealed silver boxes of Wabash F-131 8" soft sector single side double density, tested 26 sectors 128 bytes per sector 48 tpi 77 tracks. 1 open box of 11 floppies, same as above, blank labels (or no label) and tape over the write notch. Box is marked with masking tape, Disks from Richard 4/29/88 (Richard appears to be a Socal company called Star Fleet something at the time). 2 boxes of Maxell FD1 single sided, boxes are marked CPM/UG vol 1-50 and 51-92, from Richard 4/29/88. 1 box of Maxell FD1 single sided, box is marked PICO-NET. Peripheral Technology PT68K-2 from Computer Digest 1987 articles. This is a single board computer that fits in a XT case, but has a 10 mhz 68000 processor, 32 memory chips (HY53C256LS-80), floppy drive connector on ribbon cable, header marked winchester, etc. In the orignal box with manuals (board, humbug monitor, and dos), and floppies for SK DOS (Star K software with the HUMBUG rom on board), plus about a dozen misc 5.25" floppies and a comm program on 3.5" floppy. Looks like all the construction articles (cut) from Computer Digest 1987 by Peter Stark (ie Star K software), 1 issue of 68 Micro Journal, and a couple other 68k newsletters. Apparently this is designed towork in a XT case with XT monitor and keyboard. Without sounding too ebayish, this is a one of a kind very complete example of early computing. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sat Sep 29 16:03:18 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Hans H?bner wrote: > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Carlos Murillo wrote: > > Oh. I wonder if a genuine DEC CDROM will work... > > It will not work. I have used a DEC RRDxx CD drive to upgrade my 220 system from 4.1.3 to 4.1.5 with no problems, and a Toshiba XM5701 for installing some device drivers with no problems. I am sure the key to my success was that neither action required booting from the drive, however. (The 220 is reputed to be picky about its boot devices as well...) -- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 16:12:49 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC (Mike Ford) References: <000901c14912$b5e6b800$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <15286.14673.712290.472148@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 29, Mike Ford wrote: > Peripheral Technology PT68K-2 from Computer Digest 1987 articles. > This is a single board computer that fits in a XT case, but has a 10 mhz > 68000 processor, 32 memory chips (HY53C256LS-80), floppy drive connector on > ribbon cable, header marked winchester, etc. In the orignal box with > manuals (board, humbug monitor, and dos), and floppies for SK DOS (Star K > software with the HUMBUG rom on board), plus about a dozen misc 5.25" > floppies and a comm program on 3.5" floppy. Looks like all the construction > articles (cut) from Computer Digest 1987 by Peter Stark (ie Star K > software), 1 issue of 68 Micro Journal, and a couple other 68k newsletters. > Apparently this is designed towork in a XT case with XT monitor and > keyboard. Without sounding too ebayish, this is a one of a kind very > complete example of early computing. Oh wow...THAT is COOL. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 29 16:17:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) References: Message-ID: <002101c1492c$3075cde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The trivial way to accomplish this is to use a 64Kx8 SRAM and simply disable it when a ROM or other memory device is selected. Scratch building a system with 64Kx8 SRAM and a 64Kx8 EPROM that copies itself in to the RAM, then disconnects itself, would take, perhaps an hour or two. A video circuit, with or without an RF modulator, and an FDC might take a mite longer. Sifting through the parts in a kit to verify they're all there and studying the instructions so you get it right the first time would probably take longer than that. Confidence in the end=product is a valuable part of the mix, however. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 1:09 PM Subject: Re: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) > > > > > > The ULA does a lot more than handle the display ;>) > > > > > > CPU clock generation (which would be useful). Address decoding (which I'd > > > > > want to modify if I was changing the amount of RAM). > > > > Very interesting -- how much RAM are you talking about adding that you have > > to modify the address decoding? > > Well, assuming I could fit Forth into 8K, then I see no reason not to > have 56K RAM :-). > > Maybe I could use the existing address decoder, but I'd want to extend it > for the extra RAM so it wouldn't be much more work to design the whole > thing from scratch... > > > > > > > > Of course not ;>) But a ZX81 kit is still faster than starting from > > > > scratch. > > > > > > Is it? It's not going to take long to wire-wrap a clock circuit and > > > address decoder, and stick in the Z80. It depends _very much_ on how much > > > > > of the ZX81 you want to use... > > > > Which in turn depends on what the intended use of the finished device is. > > Of course... > > > Since I want a "general purpose" computer the ROM BASIC functions are very > > Sure, if you want to kepe the ZX81 BASIC then it makes sense to start > from a ZX81. As I said, I'd probably not want that... > > > convenient, and fast if called directly. Other applications of the Z80 > > would not need this code so a quickie Z80 board would be fine. > > > > > > Try desoldering the RF modulator from a ZX81 board ;>) > > > > > > Well, I had never tried to do it before, so I grabbed a ZX81, > > > > What, do you have a pile of these? > > I have a couple I think. I knew where one of them was, and I don't > normally mind dismantling computers for experimentation. I was > sufficiently confident of my soldering skills to believe that either I'd > be able to remove the modulator without damage or that I'd stop > attempting to remove it before any damage was done if there was a problem. > > > > > > unscrewed > > > the case and attacked it with soldering iron and sucker. > > > > > > What's the catch? > > > > In the US versions which have 3 thin wires, they sometimes become brittle > > and break. > > The UK version only has 2 wires. Still, I guess they could break off as > well. It wouldn't be that hard to repair that sort of damage The > modulator can can be taken a part and the video input wire re-soldered to > the PCB inside. I am sure the power wire to the feedthrough capacitor > could be repaired as well. > > > > > > Tony (and others), a question: in your opinion, which microprocessor was > > the most well-designed (even if not implemented)? > > For the 8 bitters, probably the 6809. > > For 16 bitters, one of the PDP11 ones (T11 or something), possibly. > > -tony > > From doug at blinkenlights.com Sat Sep 29 16:36:35 2001 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This weekend only in Orange County, CA: AIM65 Dynabyte S-100 Rockwell Design Center http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/design3.jpg maybe some other stuff Preference goes to somebody who offers to haul it all away by noon Sunday. Contact me by email for more info. Thanks, Doug From millerbj at umich.edu Sat Sep 29 16:55:21 2001 From: millerbj at umich.edu (Blair J. Miller) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: HDS(?) ViewStation Monitor Message-ID: <006601c14931$6fb65510$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Okay, so I've been sitting here trolling the newsgroup ever since my last post. I've read almost every post that drops into my mail-box - a lot of questions I can't answer. Anyway, I'd asked about an IBM PowerStation 530, and got a lot of responces, and eventually got a cable (Thanks Peter, your check's going in the mail on Monday) to make the 3 micro-BNC in DB housing output into a 3 BNC RGB hookup. I went to the local place to look at crap, and found only one monitor that has the three BNC hookups - it's an HDS ViewStation, with no other real info on it... Will this work with the system? Anyone heard of this thing before. Also, it's $50 - is that really a reasonable price or should I try to talk him down? If it helps, the diagrams next to the RGB hookups on the back of the monitor showed a vertical arrow in next to the R and a horizontal one next to the B, and nothing next to the green. This would lead me to believe that it syncs vertical on Red and horizontal on Blue, which obviously won't work, but I just want to make sure. Thanks again for any and all help. If this monitor won't work, I'm gonna go look again and see what sort of 5 BNC models I can find... I was told some will work (Thanks Bennett). Blair From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 29 17:05:17 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:16 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: good stuff available in OC this weekend (Doug Salot) References: Message-ID: <15286.17821.174526.360357@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 29, Doug Salot wrote: > This weekend only in Orange County, CA: > AIM65 > Dynabyte S-100 > Rockwell Design Center > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/design3.jpg > maybe some other stuff > > Preference goes to somebody who offers to haul it all away by noon Sunday. > Contact me by email for more info. Oh, how I'd love to get my grubby paws on that Dynabyte. :-| -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From linvjw at bedrocksys.com Sat Sep 29 17:43:35 2001 From: linvjw at bedrocksys.com (John W. Linville) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model II 68000 upgrade (anybody got one?) References: Message-ID: <3BB64E97.AB44832F@bedrocksys.com> Greetings! I'm looking for the fabled card that goes into a TRS-80 Model II and upgrades it to the equivalent of a TRS-80 Model 16. Eventually, I'd like to be able to run XENIX on my TRS-80... Can anyone help? I've also got a Model 12 if someone has a 68000 upgrade setup that only works with that model. In this case, I'd need the whole card-cage addition as well, as my 12 is "stock". Of course, I'd consider buying someone's Model 16 or 6000 if one was offered. But, I'd prefer not to have a third one of these behemoths sitting around if at all possible... :-) Please let me know if you can help! Thanks, John P.S. I saw schematics for the 16's 68000 card on the web. Would this card "plug-in" to the II's card cage and work? Has anyone tried building one from scratch? -- John W. Linville Bedrock Systems From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sat Sep 29 17:31:08 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: HDS(?) ViewStation Monitor In-Reply-To: <006601c14931$6fb65510$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010929152112.0244b2e0@209.185.79.193> My experience has been that every 5-bnc multisync I've found has worked with sync-on-green, however my experience is limited to Viewsonic and NEC monitors in this regard. I would agree with your guess that the monitor you looked at mixed sync on the read and blue inputs. Do not be scared by the prospect of building a sync separator circuit. The chip from National is easy to use and can easily be hand wired. You can power it from a 9v battery and when the screen goes away change the battery or use a "wall wart" type system with an on board regulator. --Chuck From awx at btinternet.com Sat Sep 29 17:54:29 2001 From: awx at btinternet.com (Alex White) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: HDS(?) ViewStation Monitor In-Reply-To: <006601c14931$6fb65510$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: > hookup. I went to the local place to look at crap, and found only one > monitor that has the three BNC hookups - it's an HDS ViewStation, with no > other real info on it... Will this work with the system? Anyone heard of It's from a small network computer - here's the monitors section of the manual: http://www.svots.edu/TechSupport/Manuals/hds-help/3-5.html (index at http://www.svots.edu/TechSupport/Manuals/hds-help/Index.html ) Hae fun Alex --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.282 / Virus Database: 150 - Release Date: 25/09/2001 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 16:48:59 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) In-Reply-To: <002101c1492c$3075cde0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> from "Richard Erlacher" at Sep 29, 1 03:17:47 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1049 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010929/f9d1849f/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sat Sep 29 18:43:11 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) References: Message-ID: <000d01c14940$80292800$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> see below, Plz. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 3:48 PM Subject: Re: ZX81 kits (was Re: Keep or assemble???) > > > > The trivial way to accomplish this is to use a 64Kx8 SRAM and simply disable it > > when a ROM or other memory device is selected. > > Sure... But 32K*8 SRAMs are more common than 64K ones in the UK, so I'd > probably use a couple of those. And then I'd want to make sure that the > RAM/ROM was only enabled when MREQ was asserted. Not hard, of course. > It's going to be a couple of chips at most, so it's not worth keeping the > ULA just for that... > They're more common here, too, but the 64K parts are easier to use once one's got one. Once you have the tools, an in-situ-programmable CPLD is probably adequate for nearly any SBC design, and small ones are just a few bucks, even from places like DigiKey. > > > > > Scratch building a system with 64Kx8 SRAM and a 64Kx8 EPROM that copies itself > > in to the RAM, then disconnects itself, would take, perhaps an hour or two. A > > video circuit, with or without an RF modulator, and an FDC might take a mite > > longer. > > As I've said a couple of times before, I can make a video circuit with > somewhat better capabilities than the ZX81's built-in video (40*25 text, > block grapghics, colour) in 2 or 3 chips. Add another chip or so to > encode the outputs to PAL (although I'd probably prefer to feed the RGB > signals into a TV's SCART socket these days...) > The logic on larger SBC's, e.g. the Ferguson Big Board, wouldn't be difficult to reduce to another ISP CPLD + a small RAM and a Character Generator EPROM, e.g. 2716, or the like. It wouldn't take much to derive the CPU clock from the video circuit, since its dot clock would be on the order of 14 MHz or so. If you were really determinedly minimalist, you would probably use the same oscillator to drive the disk interface, the video, and the CPU. It might require quite a few compromises, but ... with today's multi-output PLL's ... If you were totally determined to use an NTSC- or PAL-compatible monitor, it might be tricky, but if you use an old PC Mono monitor, and time the video circuitry such that it runs from the 16 MHz that the PC mono circuit uses ... The FDC can run from that as well, and the Z80A likes 4 MHz, The Z80H likes 8 ... > > -tony > > From emu at ecubics.com Sat Sep 29 18:46:37 2001 From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV References: <3BB64E97.AB44832F@bedrocksys.com> Message-ID: <3BB65D5D.C2A31627@ecubics.com> Hi, I just got my first TRS-80. So, knowing nothing at all about them, I'm completely stuck here. ;-) I checked a while around on the internet, and saw, that there is this famous "trs-80 model IV technical reference manual" somewhere, but I didn't find it. Anyone knows where I could download it ? And, I think the best is to use it for CP/M. But where/how to get a cp/m on this box ? cheers & thanks, emanuel From mcclure3 at home.com Sat Sep 29 19:23:26 2001 From: mcclure3 at home.com (Don McClure) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <200109290427.XAA27714@opal.tseinc.com> Message-ID: I found an IBM 5150 at a thrift store the other day. I don't usually pay much attention to PeeCee's, but the price of this one was about right-- $3.50 complete with dual floppies and monochrome monitor. I don't have any boot disks for PC's this old. When I initially turned it on, it would start up BASIC, which apparently is in ROM on these machines. Lately, it hangs on a rapidly flashing left cursor, sometimes moving to a rapidly flashing cursor at the top middle of the monitor. Questions: Anybody know what causes this? Power supply? Video card? Loose chip? What's the deal with the BASIC in ROM on these machines? Any other early PeeCee's have this feature? Thanks! Don McClure Bel Air, MD From cfandt at netsync.net Sat Sep 29 19:33:52 2001 From: cfandt at netsync.net (Christian Fandt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: References: <000901c14912$b5e6b800$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <4.1.20010929200707.0096ce10@206.231.8.2> Upon the date 01:59 PM 9/29/01 -0700, Mike Ford said something like: >Today was a pretty good day at the TRW hamfest in LA. I found a few mac >curiosities, and a few items I can pass on to list members or eBay. >Reasonable offers, get treated reasonably. > --snip-- > >Peripheral Technology PT68K-2 from Computer Digest 1987 articles. >This is a single board computer that fits in a XT case, but has a 10 mhz >68000 processor, 32 memory chips (HY53C256LS-80), floppy drive connector on >ribbon cable, header marked winchester, etc. In the orignal box with >manuals (board, humbug monitor, and dos), and floppies for SK DOS (Star K >software with the HUMBUG rom on board), plus about a dozen misc 5.25" >floppies and a comm program on 3.5" floppy. Looks like all the construction >articles (cut) from Computer Digest 1987 by Peter Stark (ie Star K >software), 1 issue of 68 Micro Journal, and a couple other 68k newsletters. >Apparently this is designed towork in a XT case with XT monitor and >keyboard. Without sounding too ebayish, this is a one of a kind very >complete example of early computing. Oh this is cool, Mike! Back in the 80's I had aspirations of getting one of these systems. (Back in the "Old 80's" as my 8-year-old stepson tells his mom and me when we watch those familiar old 70's/80's shows on Nick-at-Nite and TVLand. [Man, that hurts now ]) Anyway, I recall seeing it advertised in other 80's electronics mags (Radio-Electronics and/or Pop. Electronics) at such-and-such prices. Seems a basic system was ca. $295 or something and a setup like yours was more towards $400-$500. More, of course, for additional add-ons. Yes, it was indeed designed to fit in an XT case, which by the late 80's, was a jellybean commodity like Apple ][ clone cases, etc. were then. Not sure how many PT68K's were sold, but I would wager there may have been many hundreds. Ahh yes, Peter Stark is a familiar name from dreaming about getting such a machine. I read all the articles, sent for catalogs and flyers. Still have them around somewhere in my archives. The Motorola uProcessors were and still are my favored achitecture. I learned on my Heath ET-3400 Trainer (Moto 6800) in 1980/81 what a uProcessor really is as opposed to learning about that then-seemingly convoluted Intel thing. Alas, I was not financially able to balance paying a mortgage and household bills and keep enough for buying goodies like this. Seems I spent some of my extra cash both on building my substantial antique radio collection and on girlfriends. Except for my wife now, the decidedly better investment was in the old radios :-) Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt@netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 29 19:22:40 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: from "Don McClure" at Sep 29, 1 08:23:26 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1976 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/35021470/attachment.ksh From jhingber at ix.netcom.com Sat Sep 29 19:51:36 2001 From: jhingber at ix.netcom.com (Jeffrey Ingber) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1001811102.2096.1.camel@DESK-2> On Sat, 2001-09-29 at 20:23, Don McClure wrote: > I found an IBM 5150 at a thrift store the other day. I don't usually pay > much attention to PeeCee's, but the price of this one was about right-- > $3.50 complete with dual floppies and monochrome monitor. > > I don't have any boot disks for PC's this old. When I initially turned it > on, it would start up BASIC, which apparently is in ROM on these machines. > Lately, it hangs on a rapidly flashing left cursor, sometimes moving to a > rapidly flashing cursor at the top middle of the monitor. > > Questions: > > Anybody know what causes this? Power supply? Video card? Loose chip? Re-seat the chips and see if that helps. > > What's the deal with the BASIC in ROM on these machines? Any other early > PeeCee's have this feature? All the genuine IBM PC's had ROM basic (I think some of the PS/2 might have had this as well). This made the ROM difficult to clone while maintaining full 'IBM Compatibility'. Jeffrey H. Ingber (jhingber _at_ ix.netcom.com) > > Thanks! > > Don McClure > Bel Air, MD > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 232 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010929/027a808b/attachment.bin From louiss at gate.net Sat Sep 29 19:57:51 2001 From: louiss at gate.net (Louis Schulman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <3BB65D5D.C2A31627@ecubics.com> Message-ID: <200109300057.UAA31578@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> On Sat, 29 Sep 2001 17:46:37 -0600, emanuel stiebler wrote: #Hi, # #I just got my first TRS-80. So, knowing nothing at all about them, #I'm completely stuck here. ;-) # #I checked a while around on the internet, and saw, that there is this #famous #"trs-80 model IV technical reference manual" somewhere, but I didn't #find it. # #Anyone knows where I could download it ? # #And, I think the best is to use it for CP/M. But where/how to get a cp/m #on this box ? Here is what you need to do. Go to David Keil's TRS-80 emulator web page. Get the emulator for the model IV, and get it running on your PC. David has disk images for everything you want, including CP/M. When you get the emulator running with the CP/M disk image, you can make real disks with your PC (assuming you have a 5.25" double-density drive on your PC). A high density drive can work, but there are some limitations and cautions, because the tracks are narrower. This should get you going. Dave has many documents as well. Louis From rhblakeman at kih.net Sat Sep 29 20:29:12 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Most of the IBM line reverts to ROM Basic (BasicA is a combo of ROM BASIC with an additional file to enhance it)if no boot disk is found. Even the later PS/2 line will go to BASIC if no boot on floppy or HD is found. Many of the early clones work the same but since they have no ROM BASIC they lock up if no boot softwware is found. The hanging cursor without a boot floppy is likely memory or video, although memory will usually usually cause monochrome to get all sort of weird spots on screen or odd characters. You can boot the machine with most DOS versions. Mine runs 6.22 fine. You need an 8 bit HD controller with BIOS to run a hard drive in the machine. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Don McClure -> Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 7:23 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: IBM 5150 -> -> -> I found an IBM 5150 at a thrift store the other day. I don't usually pay -> much attention to PeeCee's, but the price of this one was about right-- -> $3.50 complete with dual floppies and monochrome monitor. -> -> I don't have any boot disks for PC's this old. When I initially turned it -> on, it would start up BASIC, which apparently is in ROM on these -> machines. -> Lately, it hangs on a rapidly flashing left cursor, sometimes moving to a -> rapidly flashing cursor at the top middle of the monitor. -> -> Questions: -> -> Anybody know what causes this? Power supply? Video card? Loose chip? -> -> What's the deal with the BASIC in ROM on these machines? Any other early -> PeeCee's have this feature? -> -> Thanks! -> -> Don McClure -> Bel Air, MD -> -> From dittman at dittman.net Sat Sep 29 21:11:18 2001 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 29, 2001 06:05:17 PM Message-ID: <200109300211.f8U2BI003088@narnia.int.dittman.net> > On September 29, Doug Salot wrote: > > This weekend only in Orange County, CA: > > AIM65 > > Dynabyte S-100 > > Rockwell Design Center > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/design3.jpg > > maybe some other stuff > > > > Preference goes to somebody who offers to haul it all away by noon Sunday. > > Contact me by email for more info. > > Oh, how I'd love to get my grubby paws on that Dynabyte. :-| I'd love to get the AIM65, but I'm not in Orange Counter. :-( -- Eric Dittman dittman@dittman.net Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sat Sep 29 21:28:28 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> > > What's the deal with the BASIC in ROM on these machines? Any other early > > PeeCee's have this feature? > > It's standard Microsoft cassette BASIC. Similar to (say) TRS-80 CoCo > BASIC. > > The true-blue IBM PC. PC/XT (and therefore PortablePC), PC/AT, PCjr, etc > all have BASIC in ROM. I don't think it was ever licensed to clones, and > I don't think any clone company ever wrote a ROM BASIC from scratch. So > pretty much the only place you'll find it is in IBM machines. Tony, I think you are correct as I've never seen a clone mb with BASIC in ROM, but I *have* seen clone boards -- including early Pentium boards -- which would cough up "no rom basic" if they didn't find a bootable device. Oddly enough the text of this message is always displayed in 40-column low-res mode. Doesn't this suggest that part of the ROM BIOS code was "borrowed" from early IBM code? Glen 0/0 From jss at subatomix.com Sat Sep 29 23:32:15 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me Message-ID: <20010929223013.D1895-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Yes, I'm actually going to ask a question about two's complement arithmetic! I feel quite stupid for mailing this, but I just can't figure it out. And believe it or not, it really does have something to do with classic computing. All right, here goes... While I was in class Thursday, I got bored and decided to pass the time by verifying that A-B=A+(-B) in two's complement binary arithmetic, using an imaginary machine with a word size of 2 bits. I created the following table: Subtraction Equivalent Addition AA-BB=CC CZSV AA+BB=CC CZSV 01 01 00 .x.. 01 11 00 xx.. 01 00 01 .... 01 00 01 .... 01 11 10 x.xx 01 01 10 ..xx 01 10 11 x.xx 01 10 11 ..x. 00 01 11 x.x. 00 11 11 ..x. 00 00 00 .x.. 00 00 00 .x.. 00 11 01 x... 00 01 01 .... 00 10 10 x.xx 00 10 10 ..x. 11 01 10 ..x. 11 11 10 x.x. 11 00 11 ..x. 11 00 11 ..x. 11 11 00 .x.. 11 01 00 xx.. 11 10 01 .... 11 10 01 x..x 10 01 01 ...x 10 11 01 x..x 10 00 10 ..x. 10 00 10 ..x. 10 11 11 x.x. 10 01 11 ..x. 10 10 00 .x.. 10 10 00 xx.x The left half iterates through all possible subtractions, which were each performed by hand by binary subtraction. The results and the states of the machine's flags (Carry/borrow, Zero, Sign, oVerflow), are shown. The right half contains the same subtractions, this time done by adding by hand the minuend and the two's complement of the subtrahend. Note that the C and V flags behave differently in each half. This is very disturbing, since I'm fairly certain that subtraction is implemented in many processors as adding a negated subtrahend (ergo, I should see no difference in the flags). What have I done wrong in my table? -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From hansp at aconit.org Sun Sep 30 00:36:32 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <3BB6AF60.80309@aconit.org> Glen Goodwin wrote: > Tony, I think you are correct as I've never seen a clone mb with BASIC in > ROM, but I *have* seen clone boards -- including early Pentium boards -- > which would cough up "no rom basic" if they didn't find a bootable device. > Oddly enough the text of this message is always displayed in 40-column > low-res mode. Doesn't this suggest that part of the ROM BIOS code was > "borrowed" from early IBM code? On early IBM machines, ROM Basic was entered by performing an INT 18h instruction. On machines not implementeing ROM Basic, calling int 18 would simply display the "no rom basic" message, often in 40 col mode since that was the lowest resolution suupported. Many bootstraps terminate with a call on Int 18 to indicate the absence of bootable code on the media hence the message would appear. [OT] On modern PCs, Int 18 is still used to signal that a bootsrap has not found an operating system but now the BIOS retains control and tries the next boot device in the list defined by the user. If no OS is found a message to that effect is displayed. -- HBP From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Sep 30 00:35:28 2001 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: <200109300211.f8U2BI003088@narnia.int.dittman.net> Message-ID: Thanks for all the interest -- the stuff has been claimed by a lucky OC local. Cheers, Doug On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Eric Dittman wrote: > > On September 29, Doug Salot wrote: > > > This weekend only in Orange County, CA: > > > AIM65 > > > Dynabyte S-100 > > > Rockwell Design Center > > > http://www.blinkenlights.com/classiccmp/aim65/design3.jpg > > > maybe some other stuff > > > > > > Preference goes to somebody who offers to haul it all away by noon Sunday. > > > Contact me by email for more info. > > > > Oh, how I'd love to get my grubby paws on that Dynabyte. :-| > > I'd love to get the AIM65, but I'm not in Orange Counter. :-( > -- > Eric Dittman > dittman@dittman.net > Check out the DEC Ethusiasts Club at http://www.dittman.net/ > From zaft at azstarnet.com Sun Sep 30 00:56:01 2001 From: zaft at azstarnet.com (Gordon Zaft) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <20010929223013.D1895-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010929225528.01fbc3c0@mail.azstarnet.com> You do realize that in signed arithmetic anything with the leading bit set is a negative number? At 11:32 PM 9/29/2001 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, I'm actually going to ask a question about two's complement >arithmetic! I feel quite stupid for mailing this, but I just can't figure >it out. And believe it or not, it really does have something to do with >classic computing. All right, here goes... > >While I was in class Thursday, I got bored and decided to pass the time by >verifying that A-B=A+(-B) in two's complement binary arithmetic, using an >imaginary machine with a word size of 2 bits. I created the following >table: > >Subtraction Equivalent Addition >AA-BB=CC CZSV AA+BB=CC CZSV >01 01 00 .x.. 01 11 00 xx.. >01 00 01 .... 01 00 01 .... >01 11 10 x.xx 01 01 10 ..xx >01 10 11 x.xx 01 10 11 ..x. >00 01 11 x.x. 00 11 11 ..x. >00 00 00 .x.. 00 00 00 .x.. >00 11 01 x... 00 01 01 .... >00 10 10 x.xx 00 10 10 ..x. >11 01 10 ..x. 11 11 10 x.x. >11 00 11 ..x. 11 00 11 ..x. >11 11 00 .x.. 11 01 00 xx.. >11 10 01 .... 11 10 01 x..x >10 01 01 ...x 10 11 01 x..x >10 00 10 ..x. 10 00 10 ..x. >10 11 11 x.x. 10 01 11 ..x. >10 10 00 .x.. 10 10 00 xx.x > >The left half iterates through all possible subtractions, which were each >performed by hand by binary subtraction. The results and the states of >the machine's flags (Carry/borrow, Zero, Sign, oVerflow), are shown. > >The right half contains the same subtractions, this time done by adding by >hand the minuend and the two's complement of the subtrahend. > >Note that the C and V flags behave differently in each half. This is very >disturbing, since I'm fairly certain that subtraction is implemented in >many processors as adding a negated subtrahend (ergo, I should see no >difference in the flags). What have I done wrong in my table? > >-- >Jeffrey S. Sharp >jss@subatomix.com From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 30 01:28:59 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: from Doug Salot at "Sep 30, 1 01:35:28 am" Message-ID: <200109300628.XAA09202@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Thanks for all the interest -- the stuff has been claimed by a lucky OC > local. Let me guess. Mike, did you get there first? :-P -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- I like being single. I'm always there when I need me. -- Art Leo ----------- From jss at subatomix.com Sun Sep 30 02:00:14 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010929225528.01fbc3c0@mail.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: <20010930015549.A2107-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > You do realize that in signed arithmetic anything with the leading bit > set is a negative number? Yes, of course. I don't understand how highlighting that fact sheds any light on my problem. I want to know why I'm getting different C and V from supposedly equivalent operations. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Sep 30 02:02:45 2001 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Wang 2200: video timing problem & questions Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.0.20010929233750.00c187b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> After a few years of searching, I finally have a Wang 2200 computer (2200-T style CPU, to be exact). Parts of it have been arriving from Dallas for the past four months. The last piece arrived yesterday, the 2226 keyboard/monitor. Yeah! Unfortunately, the monitor just doesn't sync at all. Not having worked a whole lot with video, I was hoping someone could steer me in the right direction. I'll explain what I know so far. First, this monitor, cable, and CPU were all part of a set -- I'm not mixing and matching. Supposedly the video was fine when it left Dallas a week or two ago. The video goes from the CPU to the monitor over a single coax and has composite sync. Video is baseband monochrome. There are a couple hidden pots that can be twiddled, and I have, but the best I can do is get it to a slow roll/tear. It is an impossible task as just thermal drift causes the screen to wander. Neither vsync nor hsync appears to work at all. At first I thought I just would have to tweak the H & V pots into the lock range of the PLL that controls the sync but there appears to be no locking zone. I got a standard monitor that I use with my Sol and hooked it up. The screen rolled wildly. By adjusting the H & V controls on that monitor, I could get it to sync both axes, but the video was not readable -- it was locking to some multiple/submultiple so the image was stable but not coherent. Thus it seems to rule out the unlikely case that the original monitor is OK and the video card is putting out signal but no sync. So then I broke out my crappy scope that I picked up a hamfest, but which is good enough for this job. I measured some timings. Interestingly, the scope has TV V sync and TV H sync trigger modes; both worked properly to lock the signal. Thus the timing is close enough to normal video for the scope to think it was OK. Timings below are as good as I can measure with this scope; 5% error wouldn't be unlikely. I've put in square brackets the figure for normal US television timing (from a web page that I just looked up) vertical period: ~16.8 ms/frame [ 1/60 = 16.67 ] v blanking: 4 scan lines v front porch: 17 scan lines v back porch: couldn't trigger it in a way to count them v active: there are 24 rows of text, each on 11 scan lines, or 264 scans, = 15.3 ms horizontal period: 58 us [63.5] h sync: 2 us [4.7] h front porch: 7 us [4.7] h video: 47 us [52.6] h back porch: 3.5 us [1.5] dc level: 0.7v sync: 0v video white; 1.4 v [ignore the voltages somewhat -- I was measuring them using a high-impedance scope probe and a properly terminated coax would probably lower those figures] So here are my specific questions; if you have any thoughts and have read this far, don't limit your responses to these questions, though. 1) Doesn't is seem odd that neither H nor V sync lock? What would cause both to go out at the same time during shipment? 2) Doesn't it seem odd that the timing is pretty close to nominal but my 2nd monitor can lock but not get a proper picture? 3) Any thoughts about what I should try next? I have no schematics or technical docs for any of this. Thanks for any ideas, even crackpot ones. ----- Jim Battle == frustum@pacbell.net From mranalog at home.com Sun Sep 30 04:01:12 2001 From: mranalog at home.com (Doug Coward) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Unusual Diskettes - Niniendo Message-ID: <3BB6DF58.1DE35A96@home.com> "Iggy Drougge" wrote: > I'm sory, but the URL goes to a "restricted area". You just need to copy and paste the rest of the link: os&.dnm=Niniendo.jpg&.src=ph > Nintendo produced a disk drive for the Famicom/NES These are the only disk drives I have that are battery powered - 6 "C" cells each. --Doug ========================================= Doug Coward @ home in Poulsbo, WA Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center http://www.best.com/~dcoward/analog ========================================= From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 06:01:41 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <20010930015549.A2107-100000@lepton.subatomix.com>; from jss@subatomix.com on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 02:00:14AM -0500 References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010929225528.01fbc3c0@mail.azstarnet.com> <20010930015549.A2107-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <20010930040141.A15131@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 02:00:14AM -0500, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Gordon Zaft wrote: > > > You do realize that in signed arithmetic anything with the leading bit > > set is a negative number? > > Yes, of course. I don't understand how highlighting that fact sheds any > light on my problem. I want to know why I'm getting different C and V > from supposedly equivalent operations. If I understand Gordon, he's saying that you can't confuse signed arithmetic with unsigned arithmetic. You've really created two number systems: bits 00 01 10 11 unsigned 0 +1 +2 +3 signed 0 +1 -2 -1 The shortcut of two's-complement subtraction only relies on the bits in the numbers, so it works with both systems. But the rules for setting the flags depend on the number system and the operation, so: keeping the bits and operation the same, but changing the system, might change the flags; with the signed system, switching between addition and subtraction, and of course complementing the bits, might also change the flags! Subtraction Equivalent Addition AA-BB=CC CZSV AA+BB=CC CZSV 01 10 11 x.xx 01 10 11 ..x. Using my table above: 1--2= 3 1+-2=-1 And the 3 really is an overflow (since there is no 3 in the signed system) and the -1 really isn't. It may actually be less confusing to use more bits (you'll be able to see more answers that are in range). -- Derek From kreation at juno.com Sun Sep 30 06:00:33 2001 From: kreation at juno.com (kreation@juno.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Epson QX-10 Message-ID: <20010930.040038.-539317.2.kreation@juno.com> Hi All; For those poor mis informed folk -- the Epson QX-10 was not a laptop. Many of the common features that are in use in keyboards today first appeared on the OX-10 (Help key, Undo key and others). Jerry Parnell (held stock in IBM ---- ick!!!!!!) was a major influence in the demise of the QX series. He spent 3 days with Chris Ratowski to review to the Valdocs III Integrated Software package. He saw a beta version with some bugs in it. In the course of those three days he kept saying what a great piece of software Valdocs was. Chris explained several times that it was a beta version and not quite ready for release. Jerry was at that time a reviewer for the three major computer mags (Personal Computing, Byte Mag. and Popular Computing). Epson was just approaching the big time with 100,000 QX-10s sold in the USA and Chris was countering on Jerry's reviews as a big market boast. Will Jerry released these reviews in all three mags at the same time and the market for Epson QX-10 dropped over night. He never said the version he saw was beta and proceeded to rip the QX-10 apart with very much erroneous information; it was obvious that he hated anything that wasn't IBM (esp if it was better which the Epson was). It was ten times the computer. I know much more about if any are interested. I have a QX-10 complete that I bought in 1986 or 1987 (don't remember). It still works somewhat. I the Valdocs software, CPM 80 and much other software. The reset button was by passed as it failed and the keyboard cord has been spliced together. It also has a 300 baud modem and the beta version of an optical mouse which works with Val Draw only. I was a beta tester for the Epson QX-10. I know first hand most of its history and what came with it. I had a complete collection of all mags written for it. Don't know what I did with them. I am interested in selling it if some one wants it. It also needs a new clock battery (nicad). I am not sure the floppies are still readable????????????? doug kreation@juno.com From kevan at heydon.org Sun Sep 30 06:18:38 2001 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: VME 3 to 2 board up for grabs (UK) Message-ID: Hi, I have a Dawn VME 3 to 2 Adapter version 5 (Model: SUN9U400/6U-4) that I no longer want. As a bonus you get the Imaging Technology Inc. card in it too. There are no model numbers on this card but I am guessing it is some sort of frame grabber. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From optimus at canit.se Sat Sep 29 08:07:32 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code In-Reply-To: <003901c146c0$c3184f60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <279.672T1600T8474821optimus@canit.se> Richard Erlacher skrev: >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and >the rest of us cringe, but that's what available. Why, what's PAL65? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 07:47:52 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM 5150 In-Reply-To: <1001811102.2096.1.camel@DESK-2> Message-ID: All of the PS/2 line that I've ever worked with (including my 9595) have it but I checked my Server 320 and it doesn't appear to have it. I did have a clone I picked up once, an 8088 XT clone, that came up to BASIC in ROM - seems someone pulled a BASIC ROM from a big blue and put it in the socket that takes the BASIC ROM, it didn't come from the factory that way. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Ingber -> All the genuine IBM PC's had ROM basic (I think some of the PS/2 might -> have had this as well). This made the ROM difficult to clone while -> maintaining full 'IBM Compatibility'. From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 07:47:54 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't duplicate, maybe due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated everything else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. That pretty much led to IBM losing a lot in the PC market. Now why they kept the BASIC on ROM even into the PS/2 line is beyond me. It served no real purpose that late in life when most people had moved on to C++ and Pascal and it was rare to find someone that used BASIC or BASICA - especially since the cassette port was gone as of the XT 5160. The BASIC on ROM was in 40 column mode at start as well, I guess to accomodate any display that might be attached. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Glen Goodwin -> Tony, I think you are correct as I've never seen a clone mb with BASIC in -> ROM, but I *have* seen clone boards -- including early Pentium boards -- -> which would cough up "no rom basic" if they didn't find a -> bootable device. -> Oddly enough the text of this message is always displayed in 40-column -> low-res mode. Doesn't this suggest that part of the ROM BIOS code was -> "borrowed" from early IBM code? From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 07:49:55 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV In-Reply-To: <200109300057.UAA31578@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net> Message-ID: You wouldn't happen to have a link to Kiel's page would you? I have some TRS-80 mod 4 programs on floppy I need to try out and since I sold my last TRS-80 mod 4 to Bayer in Mass a few years ago I don't have a platform to run it on. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Louis Schulman -> Here is what you need to do. Go to David Keil's TRS-80 emulator -> web page. Get the emulator for the -> model IV, and get it running on your PC. -> -> David has disk images for everything you want, including CP/M. -> When you get the emulator running with -> the CP/M disk image, you can make real disks with your PC -> (assuming you have a 5.25" double-density -> drive on your PC). A high density drive can work, but there are -> some limitations and cautions, because the -> tracks are narrower. -> -> This should get you going. Dave has many documents as well. From kevan at heydon.org Sun Sep 30 08:06:23 2001 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: VME 3 to 2 board up for grabs (UK) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: What I forgot to mention in my last post is that I have a picture here: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/pictures/vme3to2.jpg -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From kevan at heydon.org Sun Sep 30 08:36:58 2001 From: kevan at heydon.org (Kevan Heydon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Anybody want some VT keyboard keys... Message-ID: I have about 190 assorted blank VT keyboard keys. A picture of a few of them is here: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/pictures/vtkeys.jpg A handfull have some hand written stuff on them already. Free to a good home. -- Kevan Collector of old computers: http://www.heydon.org/kevan/collection/ From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 08:38:13 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" "Stupid question that's been annoying me" (Sep 29, 23:32) References: <20010929223013.D1895-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <10109301438.ZM27954@unknown.zmail.host> On Sep 29, 23:32, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Yes, I'm actually going to ask a question about two's complement > arithmetic! I feel quite stupid for mailing this, but I just can't figure > it out. And believe it or not, it really does have something to do with > classic computing. All right, here goes... > > While I was in class Thursday [...] I created the following table: [ snip ] > Note that the C and V flags behave differently in each half. This is very > disturbing, since I'm fairly certain that subtraction is implemented in > many processors as adding a negated subtrahend (ergo, I should see no > difference in the flags). What have I done wrong in my table? Firstly, you're assuming (on the left) that "carry" is the same as "borrow". Wrong! If you are subtracting, working the columns right-to-left, a borrow from one column to the previous (on the right) is balanced by adding the borrowed digit back to the subtrahend, so it gets subtracted from the result, not added. This is the opposite of a carry. That's why most of the "carry" flags you show in the left side of the table are incorrect; they're actually "borrow" flags. If you think this is confusing, try comparing the carry flags implemented in a Z80 and a 6502 (they do different things for subtractions!). The other problem you have is with the overflow. It's not a problem with signed vs unsigned numbers as some people have implied, it's with the order you do things in. I assume you're setting the V (oVerflow) as the XOR of the carry into the MSB and the carry out of the MSB. Well, this is true, but for it to work with pathological cases you don't do the full two's complement process before the addition, but do it at the same time. One of your cases is Subtraction Equivalent Addition AA-BB=CC CZSV AA+BB=CC CZSV 01 10 11 x.xx 01 10 11 ..x. The difficulty is that binary 10 is its own complement. However, you'll get the right answer if you say that "A - B" is the same as "A + inv(B) + 1" where "inv(B)" is the ones-complement of B. "inv(10)" is "01". Now add "01" + "01" + "1" in a single step. You'll find the carry out of the MSB is a "0", of course, but the carry into the MSB is a "1". Therefore V = 1 xor 0 = 1. Which is what we hope! However, if you say that "A - B" is the same as "A + cpl(B)" where "cpl(B)" is the twos-complement of "B", ie you do "inv(B) + 1" ahead of the rest of the addition -- as you did -- you'll add "01 + 10" in a separate step. Then you'll find the carry into the MSB is now a "0", and 0 xor 0 = 0, implying no overflow. Wrong answer! That's one of the reasons that ALU designers don't usually implemetn a 2-stage complement-and-add for subtraction, but instead do it with a single-stage invert-add-xor operation (the xor being the addition of the extra "1" which makes the invert arithmetically equivalent to 2s-complement). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hansp at aconit.org Sun Sep 30 08:56:11 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <3BB7247B.4050505@aconit.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't duplicate, maybe > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated everything > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. Correct. The main BIOS source code was published in the IBM tech ref manuals. The BASIC was not and AFAIK no clone maker ever included a BASIC interpreter in the ROM. I don't think anyone missed it. DOS always included an advanced BASIC interpreter which was available to all. > That pretty much led to IBM losing a lot in the PC market. Unclear. They certainly lost market share, but it can be argued that without the clone market the whole personal computer market would have been much smaller and diverse and arguably better. -- HBP From hansp at aconit.org Sun Sep 30 09:01:36 2001 From: hansp at aconit.org (Hans B Pufal) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: TRS-80 Model IV References: Message-ID: <3BB725C0.5060901@aconit.org> Russ Blakeman wrote: > You wouldn't happen to have a link to Kiel's page would you? I have some > TRS-80 mod 4 programs on floppy I need to try out and since I sold my last > TRS-80 mod 4 to Bayer in Mass a few years ago I don't have a platform to run > it on. A couple of minutes with Google threw up this page: http://discover-net.net/~dmkeil/ I think that's what you need -- HBP From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 30 08:45:54 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: <200109300628.XAA09202@stockholm.ptloma.edu> References: from Doug Salot at "Sep 30, 1 01:35:28 am" Message-ID: >> Thanks for all the interest -- the stuff has been claimed by a lucky OC >> local. > >Let me guess. Mike, did you get there first? :-P And gallantly stepped aside, not really my cup of tea, but if needed I could step in. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 09:21:37 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <279.672T1600T8474821optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <004c01c149bb$37640ba0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> PAL-65 is the Assembler written by Wayne Wall and friends at the Colorado School of Mines in the mid-'70's and patterened after the PAL-10 assembler for the DEC KA-10 that CSM had at the time. Its syntax, like many DEC products, differs from what's used throughout the rest of the industry but only in a few significant ways. The differences fall into two classes: (a) the assembler pseudo-op's, and (b) the instruction syntax. Now, I haven't used this stuff in years, but, instead of EQU, DB, DW, ORG, etc, .DEF, .BYTE, .WORD, .LOC and others. These should be quite recognizable in the early version, e.g. the FOCAL source. Later versions had word operations added as hard-coded macros to parallel what the Apple Assembler had added, just for convenience. The way in which the two deal with the indirection and indexing in the 6502 is different as well, from what was used in "the rest of the industry" ... more or less ... These differences are really quite regular and a few editor macros should fix them without incident. You do have to catch them all, however. I'll eventually have the source and executables for the PAL-65 assembler available as well, though, once again, they'll be the versions for the APEX OS, which means they'll still be of little use to those not using APEX. I have source listings for the earlier standalone version of the assembler, but they're on very aged "green-bar" paper that has deteriorated from quite readable to barely so over the 20+ years they've been around and my attempts to OCR them have been futile, so far. There's also a manual, though I'm not sure I have a machine-readable version of that at all. These will also be made available as I unearth them. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 > >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and > >the rest of us cringe, but that's what available. > > Why, what's PAL65? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 09:44:25 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code References: <279.672T1600T8474821optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <005c01c149be$66ff3620$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> There's a little information that might help shed light on this matter in the "history" written by Larry Fish on www.6502group.org if you care to read it. I've been uninvolved in the activities of this venerable group for over a decade, thouth I've maintained contact with certain individuals and thereby kept aware of the activities. Their website, so far, does not contain any links to any of this old software, and, at the moment nobody knows where it's stored. Nobody seems to care enough to find out about it, so I've been going around p*ssing people off by asking what happened to the files that Larry Fish provided for the purpose of putting it on the site. He has, of course, cleared it off his own site, since it is of limited interest by now. It's possible that through the lack of interest of some, and the lack of consideration of some others, this fairly significant work product of the '70's may be lost to the general public. There are, IIRC, a very few copies of of the pre-APEX software still in existence on microfiche, though I don't personally own them, and there are a few copies on listings, of which I had all, have most, though not all are in useable condition. The output of this very active group in the '70's, which was when I was actively involved, seemed to stop abruptly in about1981, by which time the key players, i.e. Wall, Fish, Boyle, and Blaney, all had Apple]['s. So long as there was one or more of these fellows using their old Digital Group boxes, they were busy making tools to support that architecture and that took up a large share of their time. By the time they had their Apple]['s, they no longer generated code that wouldn't run on the Apple][, so that meant everything had to be Apple][-compatible, and the rise of APEX made the boundary between the Apple][ and the Digital Group systems disappear. Once they were able to share their work product reliably (as reliably as Apple][ diskettes would allow) they were able to interact in smaller groups and the need for discussions and projects in the context of the larger group were no longer beneficial, though they were entertaining. This meant that they were all able to do their work without the general involvement of the group at large, so that's when new software stopped flowing from the fountain. AFAIK, there was nothing ever done in the 6502group that involved the various products from Commodore, Synertek, or Rockwell, with the exception of the few things done early-on to support one or two group members' KIMs, and that stopped once the interest in FDD's began to increase. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2001 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Ancient 6502 FOCAL source code > Richard Erlacher skrev: > > >I've got the machine readable FOCAL source file available now. It's in 6502 > >Assembly Language, PAL65 syntax, which will make DEC-users comfortable and > >the rest of us cringe, but that's what available. > > Why, what's PAL65? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 10:10:04 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BB7247B.4050505@aconit.org> Message-ID: Without the BASIC interpreter we ended up with GW-BASIC, which had some good points but other bad points. I had a Sanyo MBC-555-2 then and it was a bigger mess even than the other clones as it had bitmapped CGA, strange memory mapping, a non-standard BIOS (you had to get Sanyo's own DOS or an aftermarket enhancement, not PC-DOS or MS-DOS off the shelf). I learned a lot from that POS though. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:56 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> Russ Blakeman wrote: -> -> > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't -> duplicate, maybe -> > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated -> everything -> > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. -> -> -> Correct. The main BIOS source code was published in the IBM tech ref -> manuals. The BASIC was not and AFAIK no clone maker ever included a -> BASIC interpreter in the ROM. I don't think anyone missed it. DOS -> always included an advanced BASIC interpreter which was available to all. -> -> > That pretty much led to IBM losing a lot in the PC market. -> -> Unclear. They certainly lost market share, but it can be argued that -> without the clone market the whole personal computer market would have -> been much smaller and diverse and arguably better. -> -> -- HBP -> -> From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 10:47:27 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof References: Message-ID: <001101c149c7$34a913e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Yes, the MBC was a mess, but what were the problems with GWBASIC? It wasn't exactly like IBM basic, but it was OK, wasn't it? What "bad" points were you remembering? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Blakeman" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 9:10 AM Subject: RE: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > Without the BASIC interpreter we ended up with GW-BASIC, which had some good > points but other bad points. I had a Sanyo MBC-555-2 then and it was a > bigger mess even than the other clones as it had bitmapped CGA, strange > memory mapping, a non-standard BIOS (you had to get Sanyo's own DOS or an > aftermarket enhancement, not PC-DOS or MS-DOS off the shelf). I learned a > lot from that POS though. > > -> -----Original Message----- > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal > -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:56 AM > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof > -> > -> > -> Russ Blakeman wrote: > -> > -> > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't > -> duplicate, maybe > -> > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated > -> everything > -> > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. > -> > -> > -> Correct. The main BIOS source code was published in the IBM tech ref > -> manuals. The BASIC was not and AFAIK no clone maker ever included a > -> BASIC interpreter in the ROM. I don't think anyone missed it. DOS > -> always included an advanced BASIC interpreter which was available to all. > -> > -> > That pretty much led to IBM losing a lot in the PC market. > -> > -> Unclear. They certainly lost market share, but it can be argued that > -> without the clone market the whole personal computer market would have > -> been much smaller and diverse and arguably better. > -> > -> -- HBP > -> > -> > > From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Sep 30 11:17:52 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <000801c149cb$755c0c40$0100a8c0@sys1> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a bug in the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard TTL? Does this make sense to anyone? Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? Thanks, George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/59b6f60d/attachment.html From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 30 11:47:36 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Epson QX-10 In-Reply-To: <20010930.040038.-539317.2.kreation@juno.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010930093612.01b0aeb0@209.185.79.193> At 04:00 AM 9/30/01 -0700, doug wrote: >For those poor mis informed folk -- the Epson QX-10 was not a laptop. >Many of the common features that are in use in keyboards today first >appeared on the OX-10 (Help key, Undo key and others). This is true. >Jerry Parnell (held stock in IBM ---- ick!!!!!!) was a major influence in >the demise of the QX series. This is not true. Jerry Pournelle may or may not have held stock in IBM but he was not particularly in love with one machine or another. If he had a passion it was for the simplicity of CP/M (you can email him if you'd like over at jerrypournelle.com) > He spent 3 days with Chris Ratowski to >review to the Valdocs III Integrated Software package. He saw a beta >version with some bugs in it. In the course of those three days he kept >saying what a great piece of software Valdocs was. Chris explained >several times that it was a beta version and not quite ready for release. Jerry also got a copy of the release version. >[some more mis-information snipped] >I have a QX-10 complete that I bought in 1986 or 1987 (don't remember). >It still works somewhat. I the Valdocs software, CPM 80 and much other >software. The reset button was by passed as it failed and the keyboard >cord has been spliced together. It also has a 300 baud modem and the >beta version of an optical mouse which works with Val Draw only. I was a >beta tester for the Epson QX-10. I know first hand most of its history >and what came with it. I had a complete collection of all mags written >for it. Don't know what I did with them. I won a QX-10 with a bunch of software, and the MSDOS accelerator card and the hard drive. Even with the accelerator it was slower than molasses in January. The high persistence phosphor screen that allowed it to get slightly better resolution at slower frame rates smeared like crazy and running Valdocs on it was less fun than picking leeches off your backside. Even with all that my wife put up with it for over 3 years because she ran an accounting program on it. (Managing your Money) All that being said, the machine was pretty revolutionary for its time, the choice of Forth as the underlying system for Valdocs rather than a non-threaded language was gutsy. The video controller could be programmed quite extensively. And it was in a compact form factor when PCs were huge and bulky. But using it is still a joke in my house :-) --Chuck From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Sun Sep 30 11:47:13 2001 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Possibility of Classic Computing Garage Sale/Auction In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.20010929134332.00f373e0@obregon.multi.net.co> References: Message-ID: So, here's the deal. From time to time, I get the itch to collect classic computing stuff. I collect a bunch of stuff, pile it up in my house and then the itch is scratched and I forget about it for a while. What compels me to do this I don't pretend to understand. But the simple fact is that most of you are doing such a good job collecting, restoring and preserving this stuff that there's just no need for me to do it. In other words, because I'm pursuing my own interests which take alot of space, the time has come to choose either to be a classic computer collector or not to be. (IE it's time to sh*t or get off the pot.) Therefore, I'm considering sending ALL my classic computing stuff to live with the rest of you where it will be preserved and loved. This will free up ALOT of space in my house to pursue interests such as art and photography. And I'll get to see alot of smiling faces taking home treasures. Mind you, I'd like to get some money back out of this stuff but not necessarily as much as I'd get on Ebay. So I'm considering holding a garage sale/auction at my home the last weekend of October in Des Moines, Iowa. More valuable items would be auctioned over the course of an hour or so while less valuable (more common) items would simply be priced, haggled and sold. Stuff that would be sold or auctioned includes: Apple II stuff, Kaypro II, Epson QX10, Green screen monitors, Microvax II, Vaxstation 3100, Sun 3/60, 3/110s, Sun mono monitors, mice, keyboards, books. I have a Cisco IGS router (now 10 years old), a livingston 10 port terminal server, a TIE S100 chassis, a Vector S100 business computer with 8" hard disk in separate enclosure, around a dozen s100 cards, macintosh plus and other macintosh equipment, an 8" drive in it's own enclosure, a Shugart SA800 bare drive, software, books and all kinds of miscellaneous bits of hardware and software. I also have a 9 track streaming tape drive that goes with the Microvax II. I also have an old tektronix scope with aluminum rolling cart, a 19" dual width bud rack (4' tall appox), a crusty Northstar chassis and some other miscellaneous ham radio and electronics equipment. Also, of note, I have a 19" color terminal (the Intelligent Systems Corp unit I mentioned a few months ago), a vt102 and 2 or 3 vt220s with keyboards. I also have a Xebec 10 meg hard disk for Apple II machines and other weird and bizarre stuff. As I say, although I want to get a few bucks out of the stuff, I also want everything to go. So I'm willing to haggle. This would send it all away in one big shot for me, which would be absolutely wonderful. It'd also make me feel alot better than putting stuff in a dumpster or sending it to Goodwill. So, essentially, what I'm looking for is this: If I were to hold this the last Saturday of October, how many people would be able to come or send another collector on their behalf? It would be in Des Moines, Iowa. Please send me an email if you would be able to attend and, if enough people express interest, I'll make specific plans and post them this week. Thanks and I hope everyone will see this as a positive thing and not be too hard on me for wanting to pursue my other interests. Anthony Clifton Des Moines, Iowa From jss at subatomix.com Sun Sep 30 12:06:26 2001 From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <10109301438.ZM27954@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <20010930114327.U3067-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > you're assuming (on the left) that "carry" is the same as "borrow". > Wrong! If you are subtracting, working the columns right-to-left, a > borrow from one column to the previous (on the right) is balanced by > adding the borrowed digit back to the subtrahend, so it gets > subtracted from the result, not added. This is the opposite of a > carry. This works itself out exactly like that below. > However, you'll get the right answer if you say that "A - B" is the > same as "A + inv(B) + 1" where "inv(B)" is the ones-complement of B. Bingo! That fixed it: * I get correct overflow flag values. * The correct borrow flag value is the opposite of the carry out of the addition. Now what's disturbing is that the same wrong ideas that I was taught were taught to an entire roomful of college students a few years ago, by a professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering. Thanks for the help. -- Jeffrey S. Sharp jss@subatomix.com From jhellige at earthlink.net Sun Sep 30 12:19:48 2001 From: jhellige at earthlink.net (Jeff Hellige) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:17 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <3BB6AF60.80309@aconit.org> References: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> <3BB6AF60.80309@aconit.org> Message-ID: >On early IBM machines, ROM Basic was entered by performing an INT >18h instruction. On machines not implementeing ROM Basic, calling >int 18 would simply display the "no rom basic" message, often in 40 >col mode since that was the lowest resolution suupported. > >Many bootstraps terminate with a call on Int 18 to indicate the absence >of bootable code on the media hence the message would appear. It's been a while since I powered one up, but since the IBM PCjr's BASIC ROM is on a cartridge vice on the mainboard, what do you get if you boot the machine with neither a DOS floppy or the cartridge BASIC inserted? Were there other IBM PC's that didn't have the BASIC ROM on the mainboard? Jeff -- Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File http://www.cchaven.com http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757 From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 12:19:58 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <001101c149c7$34a913e0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: Not anything "wrong" just that any program trhat addressed BASICA or ROM BASIC directly had to be modified, just like any prorgram source that addressed specific hardware features. Actually I like GW-BASIC more as it ran nice on all of my early machines and even runs OK on this PII-300. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:47 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> Yes, the MBC was a mess, but what were the problems with -> GWBASIC? It wasn't -> exactly like IBM basic, but it was OK, wasn't it? What "bad" -> points were you -> remembering? -> -> Dick -> -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: "Russ Blakeman" -> To: -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 9:10 AM -> Subject: RE: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> > Without the BASIC interpreter we ended up with GW-BASIC, which -> had some good -> > points but other bad points. I had a Sanyo MBC-555-2 then and it was a -> > bigger mess even than the other clones as it had bitmapped CGA, strange -> > memory mapping, a non-standard BIOS (you had to get Sanyo's -> own DOS or an -> > aftermarket enhancement, not PC-DOS or MS-DOS off the shelf). -> I learned a -> > lot from that POS though. -> > -> > -> -----Original Message----- -> > -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Hans B Pufal -> > -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:56 AM -> > -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> > -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> Russ Blakeman wrote: -> > -> -> > -> > If memory serves the one real thing that cloners couldn't -> > -> duplicate, maybe -> > -> > due to copyright, was the ROM BASIC but that they'd duplicated -> > -> everything -> > -> > else including the BIOS or a very good part of it. -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> Correct. The main BIOS source code was published in the IBM tech ref -> > -> manuals. The BASIC was not and AFAIK no clone maker ever included a -> > -> BASIC interpreter in the ROM. I don't think anyone missed it. DOS -> > -> always included an advanced BASIC interpreter which was -> available to all. -> > -> -> > -> > That pretty much led to IBM losing a lot in the PC market. -> > -> -> > -> Unclear. They certainly lost market share, but it can be argued that -> > -> without the clone market the whole personal computer market -> would have -> > -> been much smaller and diverse and arguably better. -> > -> -> > -> -- HBP -> > -> -> > -> -> > -> > -> -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 12:26:02 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: <000801c149cb$755c0c40$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: Hadn't heard anything of an 8088/86 series bug but I know there's a 32 bit applications lockup problem in some 386DX-16's and the well known floating point math problem in the original Pentium series. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:18 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Can anyone here describe the technical differences between an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a bug in the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard TTL? Does this make sense to anyone? Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? Thanks, George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/48f14fdf/attachment.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 12:30:25 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: Re: Stupid question that's been annoying me (Jeffrey S. Sharp) References: <10109301438.ZM27954@unknown.zmail.host> <20010930114327.U3067-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <15287.22193.50780.478319@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 30, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > Now what's disturbing is that the same wrong ideas that I was taught were > taught to an entire roomful of college students a few years ago, by a > professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering. Those who can, do... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 30 12:41:28 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Jeff Hellige wrote: > It's been a while since I powered one up, but since the IBM > PCjr's BASIC ROM is on a cartridge vice on the mainboard, what do you > get if you boot the machine with neither a DOS floppy or the > cartridge BASIC inserted? Were there other IBM PC's that didn't have > the BASIC ROM on the mainboard? TRY IT. The cartridge SUPPLEMENTED the BASIC, it did not contain it. From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 12:21:47 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <000801c149cb$755c0c40$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <001701c149d7$5a34f1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm misinterpreting the way in which you've put it. I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and memory access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since its demands aren't as stringent. The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without ill effects. BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you compose messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret the rich-text/HTML format. Dick ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Can anyone here describe the technical differences between an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a bug in the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard TTL? Does this make sense to anyone? Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? Thanks, George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 30 12:46:13 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Attaching a VT100 to a PC.... Message-ID: OK, I managed to dig out a VT100 out of storage. Of course the first path I burrowed all the way back led to a VT103, so I had to dig an even more difficult path. Anyway, I've got it hooked up to the Intel 810e board I'm using for my Desktop PDP-10 project. I've got Linux set so I can log in and do stuff. The terminal seems happiest working at 9600. Under TOPS-10 V7.03 I can do a DIR in a small directory and everything is fine, but if I run it in a big directory such as SYS:, then I get slightly garbled data. Same thing if I run a SYSTAT, it's garbled, especially the last part. I'm not up on Serial stuff and I've seen simular results hooking up one of my VT420's to Sun Sparc. Is the problem my cabling, or what? At the moment I'm using what looks to be a LapLink cable (or the equivalent). For the finished project I plan to build a custom cable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 12:49:02 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: Message-ID: <002f01c149d8$311afb60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Just WHAT do 8088/8086 features and creatures have to do with the i8080? Note that OE strips the RICH TEXT/HTML features from the outgoing email with a simple mouse-click (under FORMAT). Since HTML is anathema to some of the list's readers, PLEASE turn it OFF. If you didn't have it enabled, it wouldn't leak through your transmissions. Dick +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ----- Original Message ----- From: Russ Blakeman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:26 AM Subject: RE: 8080 vs. 8080A Hadn't heard anything of an 8088/86 series bug but I know there's a 32 bit applications lockup problem in some 386DX-16's and the well known floating point math problem in the original Pentium series. -----Original Message----- From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:18 AM To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Can anyone here describe the technical differences between an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a bug in the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard TTL? Does this make sense to anyone? Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? Thanks, George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 30 12:51:22 2001 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Russ Blakeman wrote: > Not anything "wrong" just that any program trhat addressed BASICA or ROM > BASIC directly had to be modified, just like any prorgram source that > addressed specific hardware features. Actually I like GW-BASIC more as it > ran nice on all of my early machines and even runs OK on this PII-300. For "light level" addressing of BASICA (not calling internals, but using it in batch files, etc.), Compaq and a few others RENAMED their copies of GWBASIC to BASICA. For the second version of Xeno-Copy, the publisher (Vertex (may they rot in hell)) had a fantasy of peddling it to IBM, and thought that that would be enhanced by having the program ONLY work on "real" IBM machines. To accomplish that for them, I used the BASIC floating point accumulator for passing a value to/from an assembly language subroutine. The result of that was that the Beta copy supplied to John Dvorak would not work in his generic clone, resulting in a review stating that the program didn't work. And PC-World, without mentioning that there was also a version for use with generic clones, used it as "the acid test of compatibility", stating that it would not work with ANYTHING other than IBM. OB_trivia: 1) what did GWBASIC stand for? 2) why? and/or when and how was it named? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin@xenosoft.com From vance at ikickass.org Sun Sep 30 12:53:19 2001 From: vance at ikickass.org (Absurdly Obtuse) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Sep 2001, Glen Goodwin wrote: > Tony, I think you are correct as I've never seen a clone mb with BASIC in > ROM, but I *have* seen clone boards -- including early Pentium boards -- > which would cough up "no rom basic" if they didn't find a bootable device. > Oddly enough the text of this message is always displayed in 40-column > low-res mode. Doesn't this suggest that part of the ROM BIOS code was > "borrowed" from early IBM code? I would tend to say "yes". Although, I've seen clones with BASIC in ROM, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some people who just copied IBM BIOS, but slipped through the cracks of the IBM copyright enforcement patrol. Peace... Sridhar From vaxcat at retrocomputing.com Sun Sep 30 12:53:42 2001 From: vaxcat at retrocomputing.com (Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Possibility of Classic Computing Garage Sale/Auction In-Reply-To: <001801c149d7$5a568360$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> References: Message-ID: I hope this information helps. >So what (please be sepecific, and include details, e.g. how COMPLETE the stuff >is, i.e. manuals, drivers, etc.) APPLE][ stuff do you have? I have working II+, IIe and a IIgs computer with 1.5 meg upgrade board. I have alot of original diskettes and manuals for most of the common Apple stuff. I have one or two of the original red books, joysticks, floppy drives, etc. I also have a John Bell Engineering voice synth card with diskettes and a BAL-500 eprom programmer. I'm not an >APPLE-freak, but in order to do a couple of 1-time tasks, I need a couple of >things. I'm also interested in S-100 cards, particularly if they're >documented >and complete with software, but I don't need backplanes or boxes, nor do I >need I do have a few S100 cards. Mostly they're undocumented static and dynamic memory boards (which are easy to figure out). However, I do have a MM103 modem and documentation but no software and the S100 hayes micromodem with the direct connect coupler interface. I also have a SMB multifunction card in bad shape and one or two Diskjockey IIds if I recall, with documentation but no software. I have a bunch of 8" diskettes with Xerox 820-II stuff on them including boot disks. >8" FD drives, as I have plenty. > >If you have the apple interface for that Xebec HDD, I'd be interested in that, >as well, maybe, depending on how complete it is. > The Xebec does include the interface and driver diskettes but no documentation. However, I was able to easily figure it out. Mostly if you just plug it into slot#5 and do a pr#5 after booting, it'll boot. >let me know, plz > >regards, > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:47 AM >Subject: Possibility of Classic Computing Garage Sale/Auction > > >> >> So, here's the deal. From time to time, I get the itch to collect classic >> computing >> stuff. I collect a bunch of stuff, pile it up in my house and then the >> itch is scratched >> and I forget about it for a while. >> >> What compels me to do this I don't pretend to understand. But the simple >> fact is that >> most of you are doing such a good job collecting, restoring and preserving >> this stuff >> that there's just no need for me to do it. In other words, because I'm >> pursuing my >> own interests which take alot of space, the time has come to choose either >> to be a >> classic computer collector or not to be. (IE it's time to sh*t or get off >> the pot.) >> >> Therefore, I'm considering sending ALL my classic computing stuff to live >> with the >> rest of you where it will be preserved and loved. This will free up ALOT >> of space >> in my house to pursue interests such as art and photography. >> >> And I'll get to see alot of smiling faces taking home treasures. >> >> Mind you, I'd like to get some money back out of this stuff but not >> necessarily as >> much as I'd get on Ebay. >> >> So I'm considering holding a garage sale/auction at my home the last weekend >of >> October in Des Moines, Iowa. More valuable items would be auctioned >>over the >> course of an hour or so while less valuable (more common) items would simply >> be priced, haggled and sold. >> >> Stuff that would be sold or auctioned includes: Apple II stuff, Kaypro II, >> Epson QX10, Green >> screen monitors, Microvax II, Vaxstation 3100, Sun 3/60, 3/110s, Sun mono >> monitors, mice, keyboards, books. I have a Cisco IGS router (now 10 years >> old), >> a livingston 10 port terminal server, a TIE S100 chassis, a Vector S100 >> business >> computer with 8" hard disk in separate enclosure, around a dozen s100 cards, >> macintosh plus and other macintosh equipment, an 8" drive in it's own >> enclosure, >> a Shugart SA800 bare drive, software, books and all kinds of miscellaneous >> bits of >> hardware and software. I also have a 9 track streaming tape drive that >> goes with >> the Microvax II. >> >> I also have an old tektronix scope with aluminum rolling cart, a 19" dual >width >> bud rack (4' tall appox), a crusty Northstar chassis and some other >> miscellaneous >> ham radio and electronics equipment. >> >> Also, of note, I have a 19" color terminal (the Intelligent Systems Corp >> unit I mentioned >> a few months ago), a vt102 and 2 or 3 vt220s with keyboards. I also have a >> Xebec 10 meg >> hard disk for Apple II machines and other weird and bizarre stuff. >> >> As I say, although I want to get a few bucks out of the stuff, I also want >> everything >> to go. So I'm willing to haggle. This would send it all away in one big >> shot for me, >> which would be absolutely wonderful. It'd also make me feel alot better >> than putting >> stuff in a dumpster or sending it to Goodwill. >> >> So, essentially, what I'm looking for is this: If I were to hold this the >> last Saturday >> of October, how many people would be able to come or send another collector >> on their >> behalf? It would be in Des Moines, Iowa. >> >> Please send me an email if you would be able to attend and, if enough >> people express >> interest, I'll make specific plans and post them this week. >> >> Thanks and I hope everyone will see this as a positive thing and not be too >> hard on me >> for wanting to pursue my other interests. >> >> Anthony Clifton >> Des Moines, Iowa >> >> >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 13:00:31 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: RE: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof (Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)) References: Message-ID: <15287.23999.641617.229416@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 30, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > OB_trivia: 1) what did GWBASIC stand for? Years ago, I heard somewhere that it stood for "Gee Whiz" BASIC, though I've no idea why or even if this is accurate. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 13:01:57 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof (Absurdly Obtuse) References: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Message-ID: <15287.24085.450759.236269@phaduka.neurotica.com> On September 30, Absurdly Obtuse wrote: > it wouldn't surprise me if there were some people who just copied IBM > BIOS, but slipped through the cracks of the IBM copyright enforcement > patrol. Indeed, I did exactly this with my first XT clone, built from a kit with a bare PCB... -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 13:07:32 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend References: <200109300628.XAA09202@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <002b01c149da$c6b47d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> What's an OC? Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cameron Kaiser" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:28 AM Subject: Re: good stuff available in OC this weekend > > Thanks for all the interest -- the stuff has been claimed by a lucky OC > > local. > > Let me guess. Mike, did you get there first? :-P > > -- > ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > -- I like being single. I'm always there when I need me. -- Art Leo ----------- > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 13:24:22 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <013c01c149dd$d6b264a0$caef9a8d@ajp166> Since this is about 8080/8080A the answer is fairly complex and simple at the same time. The 8080A had improved drive (not that much better) and improved interupt to hold timing. There were a few other minor differences of no real consequence. The 8080 was a bear with regard to DMA (hold/) and the 8080A was slightly better. Neither were that much fun to work with. For non-DMA designs the difference is insignificant. Both worked fine wtih Standard TTL _IF_ you followed fanout rules and buffered things correctly. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Russ Blakeman To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:04 PM Subject: RE: 8080 vs. 8080A >Hadn't heard anything of an 8088/86 series bug but I know there's a 32 bit >applications lockup problem in some 386DX-16's and the well known floating >point math problem in the original Pentium series. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org >[mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of John Galt > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:18 AM > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > Can anyone here describe the technical differences between > an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? > > The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a >bug in the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? > > The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with > standard TTL? > > Does this make sense to anyone? > > Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? > > Thanks, > > George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 13:21:38 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Wang 2200: video timing problem & questions In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.0.20010929233750.00c187b0@postoffice.pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Sep 30, 1 00:02:45 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 4045 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/bd05923e/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 13:29:33 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "Russ Blakeman" at Sep 30, 1 07:47:54 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1211 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/209d57a9/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 13:39:53 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hellige" at Sep 30, 1 01:19:48 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 399 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/bb5ab77a/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 13:25:47 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Epson QX-10 In-Reply-To: <20010930.040038.-539317.2.kreation@juno.com> from "kreation@juno.com" at Sep 30, 1 04:00:33 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1108 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/63792fd6/attachment.ksh From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 13:08:55 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: <20010930023015.VPUV1952.imf07bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> from "Glen Goodwin" at Sep 29, 1 10:28:28 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1061 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/c48bb966/attachment.ksh From nkloudon at webpathway.com Sun Sep 30 14:07:46 2001 From: nkloudon at webpathway.com (N Kent Loudon) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Boot Disk Needed Message-ID: <000801c149e3$32daf9e0$ee0fe541@oemcomputer> I am in need of a 5 1/4" floppy boot disk for an AST Premium 386/25 running DOS 6.22. Any help or advice would be appreciated. - Kent Loudon, Somerville NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/e6d5e160/attachment.html From gmphillips at earthlink.net Sun Sep 30 14:11:19 2001 From: gmphillips at earthlink.net (John Galt) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <000801c149cb$755c0c40$0100a8c0@sys1> <001701c149d7$5a34f1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <002e01c149e3$b49a27d0$0100a8c0@sys1> "The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since its demands aren't as stringent". Ok, that's a good start. But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the chip. True? I had assumed that the references to the 8080 only being compatible with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, clock, etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would show up here and ask such a question to begin with. I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences between the different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive detail, just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime around April 1974. I have not been able to find an introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at the same time? Does anyone know? I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking for one for months and have not been able to find one. If you have either of these chips in good condition (no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll GIVE you a D8080A free as part of the deal. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Erlacher" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm misinterpreting the way > in which you've put it. > > I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, > optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and memory > access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since its > demands aren't as stringent. > > The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without ill > effects. > > BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you compose > messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret the > rich-text/HTML format. > > Dick > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Galt > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM > Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > Can anyone here describe the technical differences between > an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? > > The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a bug in > the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? > > The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard TTL? > > Does this make sense to anyone? > > Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? > > Thanks, > > George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 13:59:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Attaching a VT100 to a PC.... Message-ID: <015701c149e4$2752e640$caef9a8d@ajp166> Simple, DEC terminals like to use Xon/Xoff flow control protocal and will run ok without it if the baud rate is low enough. You have two choices either hardware flowcontrol, or enable and use xon/xoff. I'd suggest the latter as it's the common way for DEC systems. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Zane H. Healy To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:22 PM Subject: Attaching a VT100 to a PC.... >OK, I managed to dig out a VT100 out of storage. Of course the first path >I burrowed all the way back led to a VT103, so I had to dig an even more >difficult path. > >Anyway, I've got it hooked up to the Intel 810e board I'm using for my >Desktop PDP-10 project. I've got Linux set so I can log in and do stuff. >The terminal seems happiest working at 9600. Under TOPS-10 V7.03 I can do >a DIR in a small directory and everything is fine, but if I run it in a big >directory such as SYS:, then I get slightly garbled data. Same thing if I >run a SYSTAT, it's garbled, especially the last part. > >I'm not up on Serial stuff and I've seen simular results hooking up one of >my VT420's to Sun Sparc. Is the problem my cabling, or what? At the >moment I'm using what looks to be a LapLink cable (or the equivalent). For >the finished project I plan to build a custom cable. > > Zane >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From swtpc6800 at home.com Sun Sep 30 15:10:08 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <000801c149cb$755c0c40$0100a8c0@sys1> <001701c149d7$5a34f1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002e01c149e3$b49a27d0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <000501c149eb$f551b740$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> My 1978 Intel Component Data Catalog has a 8080A / 8080A-1 / 8080A-2 data sheet copyright 1977 (page 11-11 to 11-18). Just under the title is the following line. "The 8080A is functionally and electrically compatible with the Intel 8080." I will look around for older catalogs. I have more Motorola 6800 datasheets than Intel. This could be like the difference between the MC6820 and MC6821 Peripheral Interface Adapter. That was some small electrical specification on an I/O pin that I can't remember now. ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley holley@hyperlynx.com ----------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Galt" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:11 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle > on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. > > I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime > around April 1974. I have not been able to find an > introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at > the same time? Does anyone know? > From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 30 15:17:43 2001 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Attaching a VT100 to a PC.... In-Reply-To: <015701c149e4$2752e640$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: >Simple, DEC terminals like to use Xon/Xoff flow control protocal >and will run ok without it if the baud rate is low enough. > >You have two choices either hardware flowcontrol, or enable >and use xon/xoff. I'd suggest the latter as it's the common way >for DEC systems. > >Allison Unfortunatly it doesn't look to be that easy. I just checked and found Xon/Xoff is set, so I also tested to see if I have the same problems with Linux. I don't. It seems that the problems are limited to the DZ11 emulation in simh. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh@aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 15:19:52 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: "Jeffrey S. Sharp" "Re: Stupid question that's been annoying me" (Sep 30, 12:06) References: <20010930114327.U3067-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: <10109302119.ZM842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 12:06, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > you're assuming (on the left) that "carry" is the same as "borrow". > > This works itself out exactly like that below. > > > However, you'll get the right answer if you say that "A - B" is the > > same as "A + inv(B) + 1" where "inv(B)" is the ones-complement of B. > > Bingo! That fixed it: > > * I get correct overflow flag values. > > * The correct borrow flag value is the opposite of the carry out of the > addition. Did you notice that in a few cases, your carry wasn't the opposite of the borrow, in the original table? But it sorted itself out so that it was consistent once you used "A + inv(B) + 1" on the right hand side. > Now what's disturbing is that the same wrong ideas that I was taught were > taught to an entire roomful of college students a few years ago, by a > professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering. Maybe part of the confusion arises because many processors (including the 8080) complement the carry flag at the end of a subtraction, so that it can be used directly as a "borrow" flag in multibyte subtractions. Others (like the 6502) don't do that. The confusion over the overflow usually arises because people are told that adding the two's complement of a number is equivalent to subtraction. That's not so much "wrong" as "incomplete". As you've seen, it's arithmetically but not logically equivalent. If you combine the carry-into-MSB from the compliment op with the carry-into-MSB from the subsequent addition, they would be logically equivalent as well, but you'd also need to do this for the carry flag otherwise subtracting 0 tends to give the wrong result :-) Since you're thinking about 2's complements, and I've mentioned you could combine the carry-in from the complement operation with the carry-in in the addition, you might like to think about different ways of performing the 2's complement. The way usually explained is "invert the bits and add a 1". There's another common way: find the *rightmost* '1' in the number. Invert every bit to its left. Done. Now where's the carry in that? Oh, and you need to use a particular search order to find the "rightmost 1". > Thanks for the help. You're welcome. It took me a few minutes to realise what was wrong, so it was an interesting exercise :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 15:05:20 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Attaching a VT100 to a PC.... In-Reply-To: "Zane H. Healy" "Attaching a VT100 to a PC...." (Sep 30, 10:46) References: Message-ID: <10109302105.ZM831@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 10:46, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Anyway, I've got it hooked up to the Intel 810e board I'm using for my > Desktop PDP-10 project. I've got Linux set so I can log in and do stuff. > The terminal seems happiest working at 9600. Under TOPS-10 V7.03 I can do > a DIR in a small directory and everything is fine, but if I run it in a big > directory such as SYS:, then I get slightly garbled data. Same thing if I > run a SYSTAT, it's garbled, especially the last part. Sounds like handshaking, or rather, lack of it. I'd guess the terminal can keep up for a while, but there comes a point where it has to scroll or something, it sets the handshake to tell the other end to wait a moment, but the other end doesn't, and a character or a few get dropped or garbled while the terminal does its housekeeping. Have you got the same kind of handshaking set up at both ends (ie both software XON/XOFF, or both CTS/RTS or both DTR/DSR)? Usually VTs want to use XON/XOFF. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From celigne at tinyworld.co.uk Sun Sep 30 15:35:44 2001 From: celigne at tinyworld.co.uk (Paul Williams) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Attaching a VT100 to a PC.... References: Message-ID: <3BB78220.D74A349F@tinyworld.co.uk> "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > OK, I managed to dig out a VT100 out of storage. > The terminal seems happiest working at 9600. Under TOPS-10 V7.03 I > can do a DIR in a small directory and everything is fine, but if I > run it in a big directory such as SYS:, then I get slightly garbled > data. Unless you're using XON/XOFF, the VT100 needs fill characters even for simple line feeds at speeds above 150 baud. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 15:31:50 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <017601c149f0$c5ed81a0$caef9a8d@ajp166> Wrong! The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not twice as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. Allison -----Original Message----- From: John Galt To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since its >demands aren't as stringent". > >Ok, that's a good start. > >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the chip. >True? I had assumed >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, clock, >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. > >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. > >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences between the >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive detail, >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). > >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. > >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at >the same time? Does anyone know? > >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking >for one for months and have not been able to find one. >If you have either of these chips in good condition >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. > >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll GIVE >you a D8080A free as part of the >deal. > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard Erlacher" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm misinterpreting >the way >> in which you've put it. >> >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and memory >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as fast >as the >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since >its >> demands aren't as stringent. >> >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without ill >> effects. >> >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you >compose >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret the >> rich-text/HTML format. >> >> Dick >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: John Galt >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? >> >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there was a >bug in >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? >> >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard TTL? >> >> Does this make sense to anyone? >> >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? >> >> Thanks, >> >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net >> > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 15:49:06 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Possibility of Classic Computing Garage Sale/Auction References: Message-ID: <003901c149f1$58d3b520$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I may have gotten more than one of this message ... but since I'm looking for the stuff (on eBay, etc.) in question actively at the moment, perhaps you can get back to me with respect to what you'd be asking and how soon you could mail these out. I normally am a seller, and not a buyer, since I've got WAY more stuff than I want to keep, not because I am a collector, but because I have all this "stuff" remaining from when I was an active microprocessor applicaitons designer back in the '70's and '80's and had to use whatever tools were available. I still have much of what I have because I can't bear to toss it, as I remember what I paid for the stuff ... regards, Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com" To: "Richard Erlacher" Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:53 AM Subject: Re: Possibility of Classic Computing Garage Sale/Auction > > I hope this information helps. > > > I do have a few S100 cards. I also have one or two Diskjockey > IId's if I recall, with documentation but no software. > > The Xebec does include the interface and driver diskettes but no > documentation. However, I was able to easily figure it out. Mostly > if you just plug it into slot#5 and do a pr#5 after booting, it'll boot. > I'm currently looking for items such as this. If we can come to some sort of agreement based on you shipping them to me, at my expense, of course, then I'm interested in pursuing that. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Anthony Clifton - Retrocomputing.com" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:47 AM > >Subject: Possibility of Classic Computing Garage Sale/Auction > > > > > >> > >> So, here's the deal. From time to time, I get the itch to collect classic > >> computing > >> stuff. I collect a bunch of stuff, pile it up in my house and then the > >> itch is scratched > >> and I forget about it for a while. > >> > >> What compels me to do this I don't pretend to understand. But the simple > >> fact is that > >> most of you are doing such a good job collecting, restoring and preserving > >> this stuff > >> that there's just no need for me to do it. In other words, because I'm > >> pursuing my > >> own interests which take alot of space, the time has come to choose either > >> to be a > >> classic computer collector or not to be. (IE it's time to sh*t or get off > >> the pot.) > >> > >> Therefore, I'm considering sending ALL my classic computing stuff to live > >> with the > >> rest of you where it will be preserved and loved. This will free up ALOT > >> of space > >> in my house to pursue interests such as art and photography. > >> > >> And I'll get to see alot of smiling faces taking home treasures. > >> > >> Mind you, I'd like to get some money back out of this stuff but not > >> necessarily as > >> much as I'd get on Ebay. > >> > >> So I'm considering holding a garage sale/auction at my home the last weekend > >of > >> October in Des Moines, Iowa. More valuable items would be auctioned > >>over the > >> course of an hour or so while less valuable (more common) items would simply > >> be priced, haggled and sold. > >> > >> Stuff that would be sold or auctioned includes: Apple II stuff, Kaypro II, > >> Epson QX10, Green > >> screen monitors, Microvax II, Vaxstation 3100, Sun 3/60, 3/110s, Sun mono > >> monitors, mice, keyboards, books. I have a Cisco IGS router (now 10 years > >> old), > >> a livingston 10 port terminal server, a TIE S100 chassis, a Vector S100 > >> business > >> computer with 8" hard disk in separate enclosure, around a dozen s100 cards, > >> macintosh plus and other macintosh equipment, an 8" drive in it's own > >> enclosure, > >> a Shugart SA800 bare drive, software, books and all kinds of miscellaneous > >> bits of > >> hardware and software. I also have a 9 track streaming tape drive that > >> goes with > >> the Microvax II. > >> > >> I also have an old tektronix scope with aluminum rolling cart, a 19" dual > >width > >> bud rack (4' tall appox), a crusty Northstar chassis and some other > >> miscellaneous > >> ham radio and electronics equipment. > >> > >> Also, of note, I have a 19" color terminal (the Intelligent Systems Corp > >> unit I mentioned > >> a few months ago), a vt102 and 2 or 3 vt220s with keyboards. I also have a > >> Xebec 10 meg > >> hard disk for Apple II machines and other weird and bizarre stuff. > >> > >> As I say, although I want to get a few bucks out of the stuff, I also want > >> everything > >> to go. So I'm willing to haggle. This would send it all away in one big > >> shot for me, > >> which would be absolutely wonderful. It'd also make me feel alot better > >> than putting > >> stuff in a dumpster or sending it to Goodwill. > >> > >> So, essentially, what I'm looking for is this: If I were to hold this the > >> last Saturday > >> of October, how many people would be able to come or send another collector > >> on their > >> behalf? It would be in Des Moines, Iowa. > >> > >> Please send me an email if you would be able to attend and, if enough > >> people express > >> interest, I'll make specific plans and post them this week. > >> > >> Thanks and I hope everyone will see this as a positive thing and not be too > >> hard on me > >> for wanting to pursue my other interests. > >> > >> Anthony Clifton > >> Des Moines, Iowa > >> > >> > >> > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 30 15:54:16 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <10109302119.ZM842@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from Pete Turnbull at "Sep 30, 1 08:19:52 pm" Message-ID: <200109302054.NAA07566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Maybe part of the confusion arises because many processors (including the > 8080) complement the carry flag at the end of a subtraction, so that it can > be used directly as a "borrow" flag in multibyte subtractions. Others > (like the 6502) don't do that. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but on my C128, 1300 ad 01 04 lda $0401 1303 38 sec 1304 e9 08 sbc #$08 1306 8d 01 04 sta $0401 1309 ad 00 04 lda $0400 130c e9 00 sbc #$00 130e 8d 00 04 sta $0400 1311 60 rts does what you would expect if, say, $0401 had a seven in it: it decrements $0400 as well, and does a proper borrow. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- FORTUNE: Ten weeks from Friday you won't remember this fortune at all. ----- From doug at blinkenlights.com Sun Sep 30 15:45:03 2001 From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: good stuff available in OC this weekend In-Reply-To: <002b01c149da$c6b47d20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: It's kind of like LA shifted right. On Sun, 30 Sep 2001, Richard Erlacher wrote: > What's an OC? > > Dick > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cameron Kaiser" > To: > Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:28 AM > Subject: Re: good stuff available in OC this weekend > > > > > Thanks for all the interest -- the stuff has been claimed by a lucky OC > > > local. > > > > Let me guess. Mike, did you get there first? :-P > > > > -- > > ----------------------------- personal page: > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- > > Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu > > -- I like being single. I'm always there when I need me. -- Art > Leo ----------- > > > > > From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 16:40:44 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <017601c149f0$c5ed81a0$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001101c149f8$8f31b0c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> The half-dozen or so I8020/4 boards I have all have i8080A CPU's in them, and each is clocked at 4.(something very small) MHz, IIRC. Are you saying that Intel ran these >1 MHz above spec? I've also seen numerous applications in which they were driven at the color burst frequency from some harmonic of that. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > Wrong! > > The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not twice > as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Galt > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM > Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the > > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since > its > >demands aren't as stringent". > > > >Ok, that's a good start. > > > >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had > >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the > chip. > >True? I had assumed > >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible > >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible > >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, > clock, > >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. > > > >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would > >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. > > > >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences between > the > >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive > detail, > >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. > >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). > > > >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle > >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. > > > >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime > >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an > >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at > >the same time? Does anyone know? > > > >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my > >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking > >for one for months and have not been able to find one. > >If you have either of these chips in good condition > >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 > >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. > > > >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll > GIVE > >you a D8080A free as part of the > >deal. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Richard Erlacher" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM > >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > > > >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm > misinterpreting > >the way > >> in which you've put it. > >> > >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, > >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and > memory > >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as > fast > >as the > >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic > since > >its > >> demands aren't as stringent. > >> > >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without > ill > >> effects. > >> > >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you > >compose > >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret > the > >> rich-text/HTML format. > >> > >> Dick > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: John Galt > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM > >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> > >> > >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between > >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? > >> > >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there > was a > >bug in > >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? > >> > >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard > TTL? > >> > >> Does this make sense to anyone? > >> > >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net > >> > > > > From dpeschel at eskimo.com Sun Sep 30 16:41:35 2001 From: dpeschel at eskimo.com (Derek Peschel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <10109301438.ZM27954@unknown.zmail.host>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 01:38:13PM +0000 References: <20010929223013.D1895-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <10109301438.ZM27954@unknown.zmail.host> Message-ID: <20010930144135.A26068@eskimo.eskimo.com> On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 01:38:13PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On Sep 29, 23:32, Jeffrey S. Sharp wrote: > > Yes, I'm actually going to ask a question about two's complement > > arithmetic! I feel quite stupid for mailing this, but I just can't > figure > > it out. And believe it or not, it really does have something to do with > > classic computing. All right, here goes... > > > > While I was in class Thursday [...] I created the following table: > > [ snip ] > > > Note that the C and V flags behave differently in each half. This is > very > > disturbing, since I'm fairly certain that subtraction is implemented in > > many processors as adding a negated subtrahend (ergo, I should see no > > difference in the flags). What have I done wrong in my table? > > Firstly, you're assuming (on the left) that "carry" is the same as > "borrow". Wrong! If you are subtracting, working the columns > right-to-left, a borrow from one column to the previous (on the right) is > balanced by adding the borrowed digit back to the subtrahend, so it gets > subtracted from the result, not added. This is the opposite of a carry. > That's why most of the "carry" flags you show in the left side of the > table are incorrect; they're actually "borrow" flags. If you think this is > confusing, try comparing the carry flags implemented in a Z80 and a 6502 > (they do different things for subtractions!). And (on the 6502) if you want to get a given result using addition vs. subraction, the carry flag must be set differently. i.e., if you have LDA #$FF LDA #$FF ADC #$01 vs. SBC #$FF and you want A to end up with $00, then you must put before the LDA: CLC vs. SEC I might never have known this except that I wanted to check my post before posting it. > The other problem you have is with the overflow. It's not a problem with > signed vs unsigned numbers as some people have implied, it's with the order Well, as one of those people I may as well ask you how much of my post is corect and how much is junk. -- Derek From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 16:43:08 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <017601c149f0$c5ed81a0$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <001901c149f8$e4f71680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel app-notes where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate the CPU clock from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > Wrong! > > The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not twice > as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Galt > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM > Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the > > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since > its > >demands aren't as stringent". > > > >Ok, that's a good start. > > > >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had > >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the > chip. > >True? I had assumed > >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible > >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible > >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, > clock, > >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. > > > >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would > >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. > > > >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences between > the > >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive > detail, > >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. > >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). > > > >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle > >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. > > > >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime > >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an > >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at > >the same time? Does anyone know? > > > >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my > >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking > >for one for months and have not been able to find one. > >If you have either of these chips in good condition > >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 > >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. > > > >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll > GIVE > >you a D8080A free as part of the > >deal. > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Richard Erlacher" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM > >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > > > >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm > misinterpreting > >the way > >> in which you've put it. > >> > >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, > >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and > memory > >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as > fast > >as the > >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic > since > >its > >> demands aren't as stringent. > >> > >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without > ill > >> effects. > >> > >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you > >compose > >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret > the > >> rich-text/HTML format. > >> > >> Dick > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: John Galt > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM > >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> > >> > >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between > >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? > >> > >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there > was a > >bug in > >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? > >> > >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard > TTL? > >> > >> Does this make sense to anyone? > >> > >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net > >> > > > > From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Sep 30 16:57:30 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Kim and Sym manuals FS on e-bay Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010930175730.007b0d20@mailhost.intellistar.net> See "http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=ramley&inc lude=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25" Not connected to the seller. Joe From dan at ekoan.com Sun Sep 30 16:41:17 2001 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Weekend finds and help needed Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930162102.04a720f0@enigma> This weekend was good for finding vintage HP items, but I'm looking for additional documentation and parts: 1. HP 9836C Picked up the CPU and monitor, but there were no manuals or media. The machine boots and displays: 9836C 2250A02013 Copyright 1982, Hewlett-Packard Company All Rights Reserved BOOTROM 3.0 Keyboard Color Graphics 2 Flexible Discs HP-IB HP 98628- at 20 917344 Bytes SEARCHING FOR A SYSTEM (ENTER to Pause) RESET To Power-Up At which point it hangs, presumably waiting for an operating system. Any leads on documentation, operating systems, and additional options for this computer would be most welcome. 2. HP 98241-67901 I/O Extender Appears to be for the 9825 series and has a test point for each of the interface lines. 3. HP ROM Drawers These were found loose in a parts bin and they appear to be ROM drawers for the HP 9825 series of desktop computers. I have three drawers, one with six slots (all of 'em empty) and two drawers with four slots. Each of the four-slot drawers has a single ROM labeled 98338A Assembly Execution 1 (the other slots are empty). Pictures can be found on my "Items Needing Help" web page at www.decodesystems.com/help-wanted/index.html . Again, any leads on documentation or additional ROMs for these drawers would be appreciated. Thanks! Cheers, Dan www.decodesystems.com From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 17:09:17 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: <20010930114327.U3067-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> Message-ID: And likely STILL being taught wrong...had the same experiences in COBOL and PASCAL programming classes in college, but we got professor's assistants instead of the actual prof we paid for. Assistants are a fancy name for grad students that have free time and get sucked into doing the prof's work when he/she wants to goof off on the clock - at least at UI Champaign/Urbana and Parkland College (community college) anyway. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Jeffrey S. Sharp -> Now what's disturbing is that the same wrong ideas that I was taught were -> taught to an entire roomful of college students a few years ago, by a -> professor in the School of Electrical and Computer Engineering. -> -> Thanks for the help. -> -> -- -> Jeffrey S. Sharp -> jss@subatomix.com -> -> From swtpc6800 at home.com Sun Sep 30 17:29:32 2001 From: swtpc6800 at home.com (Michael Holley) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <000801c149cb$755c0c40$0100a8c0@sys1> <001701c149d7$5a34f1a0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <002e01c149e3$b49a27d0$0100a8c0@sys1> Message-ID: <006701c149ff$60898d40$0300a8c0@bllvu1.wa.home.com> Intel did not refer to clock frequency but to Instruction Cycle to indicate the speed of the chip. From Intel Component Data Catalog 1978 page 11-11 8080A 2 us 8080A-1 1.3 us 8080A-2 1.5 us My SDK-80 Users Guide has schematics dated July 1975 and show an 8080A. ----------------------------------------------- Michael Holley holley@hyperlynx.com ----------------------------------------------- From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 17:40:56 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Same as I remember the Jr has a ROM BASIC, and extended BASIC on a cart as Tony points out. I'm sure someone on the list has a Jr in use and can define it. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Tony Duell -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:40 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof -> -> -> > It's been a while since I powered one up, but since the IBM -> > PCjr's BASIC ROM is on a cartridge vice on the mainboard, what do you -> > get if you boot the machine with neither a DOS floppy or the -> -> THe PCjr has at least some kind of BASIC in ROM. I know there was an -> extended BASIC cartridge (which I don't have), but a PCjr with no -> cartridges or boot floppy will still go into BASIC. -> -> -tony -> From rhblakeman at kih.net Sun Sep 30 17:40:53 2001 From: rhblakeman at kih.net (Russ Blakeman) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:18 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: <002f01c149d8$311afb60$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: As Gilda Radner used to say on SNL - "nevermind" I read the numbers wrong after a day of reworking 8086 series 5150/5160 machines. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Richard Erlacher -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 12:49 PM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A -> -> -> Just WHAT do 8088/8086 features and creatures have to do with the i8080? -> -> Note that OE strips the RICH TEXT/HTML features from the -> outgoing email with a -> simple mouse-click (under FORMAT). Since HTML is anathema to -> some of the list's -> readers, PLEASE turn it OFF. If you didn't have it enabled, it -> wouldn't leak -> through your transmissions. -> -> Dick -> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -> ----- Original Message ----- -> From: Russ Blakeman -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:26 AM -> Subject: RE: 8080 vs. 8080A -> -> -> Hadn't heard anything of an 8088/86 series bug but I know -> there's a 32 bit -> applications lockup problem in some 386DX-16's and the well -> known floating point -> math problem in the original Pentium series. -> -----Original Message----- -> From: owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> [mailto:owner-classiccmp@classiccmp.org]On -> Behalf Of John Galt -> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 11:18 AM -> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org -> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A -> -> -> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between -> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? -> -> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that -> there was a bug in -> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? -> -> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with -> standard TTL? -> -> Does this make sense to anyone? -> -> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? -> -> Thanks, -> -> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net -> -> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 18:12:07 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <01a301c14a05$ca5c8f00$caef9a8d@ajp166> no, it was 2mhz. using 8224 the usual crystal was 18.435 (2.0483333*9). there was a -1. -2 and -3 version of the part but the fastest was 3mhz. I used to sell upD8080AF for NEC and I had to know my competition. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:23 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel app-notes >where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate the CPU clock >from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > >> Wrong! >> >> The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not twice >> as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Galt >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the >> > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since >> its >> >demands aren't as stringent". >> > >> >Ok, that's a good start. >> > >> >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had >> >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the >> chip. >> >True? I had assumed >> >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible >> >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible >> >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, >> clock, >> >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. >> > >> >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would >> >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. >> > >> >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences between >> the >> >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive >> detail, >> >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. >> >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). >> > >> >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle >> >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. >> > >> >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime >> >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an >> >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at >> >the same time? Does anyone know? >> > >> >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my >> >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking >> >for one for months and have not been able to find one. >> >If you have either of these chips in good condition >> >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 >> >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. >> > >> >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll >> GIVE >> >you a D8080A free as part of the >> >deal. >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Richard Erlacher" >> >To: >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> > >> > >> >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm >> misinterpreting >> >the way >> >> in which you've put it. >> >> >> >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, >> >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and >> memory >> >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as >> fast >> >as the >> >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic >> since >> >its >> >> demands aren't as stringent. >> >> >> >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without >> ill >> >> effects. >> >> >> >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you >> >compose >> >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret >> the >> >> rich-text/HTML format. >> >> >> >> Dick >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: John Galt >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM >> >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >> >> >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between >> >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? >> >> >> >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there >> was a >> >bug in >> >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? >> >> >> >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard >> TTL? >> >> >> >> Does this make sense to anyone? >> >> >> >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net >> >> >> > >> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 17:15:50 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Weekend finds and help needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930162102.04a720f0@enigma> from "Dan Veeneman" at Sep 30, 1 05:41:17 pm Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1531 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20010930/bd5a9c15/attachment.ksh From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 18:26:03 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: WTD: 8" FDC for Apple References: Message-ID: <001501c14a07$4602ce20$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> I've been pondering how to read and subsequently publish the sources for the APEX-based 6502 software I have on 8" APEX-formatted diskettes (SSSD, but unique organization) with an eye to getting the task off my list. I've decided that the easiest way to do this is to snag an SVA (Sorrento Valley Associates ?) 8" drive controller for the Apple][. Does any of you guys have one or more of these that I could beg, borrow, steal, even buy or rent? I just need it for this one task, and then, having forever had my fill of Apple, I'm never, Never, NEVER, going to fiddle with an Apple product again if I can avoid it. My Apples are subsequently going into the rubbish heap, where they've always belonged, methinks, as fragile as their disk subsystems are, and I will try to forget all about them. However, the Apple does provide a straightforward vehicle for making these files available to those who want to fiddle with or examine them. Any offers or suggestions will be considered. thanx, Dick From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 18:16:03 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <01ac01c14a07$e4c692d0$caef9a8d@ajp166> Nope, the clock you see was divided by 2. the board had two clocks one provided the 2mhz 2phase 12V clock for the 8080 the other was for other clocked parts. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >The half-dozen or so I8020/4 boards I have all have i8080A CPU's in them, and >each is clocked at 4.(something very small) MHz, IIRC. Are you saying that >Intel ran these >1 MHz above spec? I've also seen numerous applications in >which they were driven at the color burst frequency from some harmonic of that. > >Dick > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > >> Wrong! >> >> The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not twice >> as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Galt >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the >> > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic since >> its >> >demands aren't as stringent". >> > >> >Ok, that's a good start. >> > >> >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had >> >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the >> chip. >> >True? I had assumed >> >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible >> >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible >> >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, >> clock, >> >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. >> > >> >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would >> >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. >> > >> >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences between >> the >> >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive >> detail, >> >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. >> >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). >> > >> >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle >> >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. >> > >> >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime >> >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an >> >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at >> >the same time? Does anyone know? >> > >> >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my >> >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking >> >for one for months and have not been able to find one. >> >If you have either of these chips in good condition >> >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 >> >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. >> > >> >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll >> GIVE >> >you a D8080A free as part of the >> >deal. >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Richard Erlacher" >> >To: >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> > >> > >> >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm >> misinterpreting >> >the way >> >> in which you've put it. >> >> >> >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, >> >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and >> memory >> >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice as >> fast >> >as the >> >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic >> since >> >its >> >> demands aren't as stringent. >> >> >> >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications without >> ill >> >> effects. >> >> >> >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you >> >compose >> >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't interpret >> the >> >> rich-text/HTML format. >> >> >> >> Dick >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: John Galt >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM >> >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >> >> >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between >> >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? >> >> >> >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there >> was a >> >bug in >> >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? >> >> >> >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard >> TTL? >> >> >> >> Does this make sense to anyone? >> >> >> >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net >> >> >> > >> >> > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 18:17:04 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <01ad01c14a07$e574d430$caef9a8d@ajp166> That agrees with my 1976 and 1978 intel data books. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Michael Holley To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 7:02 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >Intel did not refer to clock frequency but to Instruction Cycle to indicate >the speed of the chip. From Intel Component Data Catalog 1978 page 11-11 > >8080A 2 us >8080A-1 1.3 us >8080A-2 1.5 us > >My SDK-80 Users Guide has schematics dated July 1975 and show an 8080A. > >----------------------------------------------- >Michael Holley >holley@hyperlynx.com >----------------------------------------------- > > From lothar.felten at gmx.net Sun Sep 30 18:34:20 2001 From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Unsing other Tapedrive instead of TK50 Message-ID: hello, i?ve got a VaxStation M38 with harddisk, but is has no drives. the NetBSD-Install-HowTo says how to make boot-tapes (TK50). i could make a boot tape with my (ix86) NetBSD computer, but i have no SCSI-TK50 tapedrive. could i use an old qic tapedrive (also scsi, up to 150Mb)? i also have an PDP-11/73, this one has two harddisks (RD54 maybe?), 4 megs of ram, a TK50 drive (the connector looks like scsi, but in the drive only few pins are connected, so i suppose this is not scsi) and 2 huge RL02. there is no system on it. on a wbsite i found BSD 2.11 should run on this pdp-11, but is it free? where can i get it? and again, how to get the image on TK50 Tape without any SCSI-TK50 drive? where could i get a scsi-TK50 drive? many questions... maybe someone can help lothar From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 18:46:36 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <01a301c14a05$ca5c8f00$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <002501c14a0a$26aec1c0$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Well, Allison, it appears you're right. The AMD 9080 was the one with the 250ns clock (4 MHz) period, now that I've looked a couple of references. Thanks for clearing that up. However, that doesn't explain what's going on in my iSBC8020-4's. I'll have to figure that one out. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "ajp166" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 5:12 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > no, it was 2mhz. > > using 8224 the usual crystal was 18.435 (2.0483333*9). > there was a -1. -2 and -3 version of the part but the fastest was 3mhz. > > I used to sell upD8080AF for NEC and I had to know my competition. > > Allison > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Erlacher > To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:23 PM > Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > >BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel > app-notes > >where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate the > CPU clock > >from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. > > > >Dick > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "ajp166" > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM > >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > > > > >> Wrong! > >> > >> The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not > twice > >> as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. > >> > >> Allison > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John Galt > >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM > >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> > >> > >> >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the > >> > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic > since > >> its > >> >demands aren't as stringent". > >> > > >> >Ok, that's a good start. > >> > > >> >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had > >> >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the > >> chip. > >> >True? I had assumed > >> >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible > >> >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible > >> >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, > >> clock, > >> >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. > >> > > >> >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would > >> >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. > >> > > >> >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences > between > >> the > >> >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive > >> detail, > >> >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. > >> >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). > >> > > >> >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle > >> >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. > >> > > >> >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime > >> >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an > >> >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at > >> >the same time? Does anyone know? > >> > > >> >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my > >> >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking > >> >for one for months and have not been able to find one. > >> >If you have either of these chips in good condition > >> >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 > >> >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. > >> > > >> >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll > >> GIVE > >> >you a D8080A free as part of the > >> >deal. > >> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: "Richard Erlacher" > >> >To: > >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM > >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> > > >> > > >> >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm > >> misinterpreting > >> >the way > >> >> in which you've put it. > >> >> > >> >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, > >> >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and > >> memory > >> >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice > as > >> fast > >> >as the > >> >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic > >> since > >> >its > >> >> demands aren't as stringent. > >> >> > >> >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications > without > >> ill > >> >> effects. > >> >> > >> >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you > >> >compose > >> >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't > interpret > >> the > >> >> rich-text/HTML format. > >> >> > >> >> Dick > >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: John Galt > >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org > >> >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM > >> >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between > >> >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? > >> >> > >> >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there > >> was a > >> >bug in > >> >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? > >> >> > >> >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard > >> TTL? > >> >> > >> >> Does this make sense to anyone? > >> >> > >> >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> > >> >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net > >> >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > > From spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu Sun Sep 30 19:18:04 2001 From: spectre at stockholm.ptloma.edu (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: from Russ Blakeman at "Sep 30, 1 05:40:56 pm" Message-ID: <200110010018.RAA08404@stockholm.ptloma.edu> > Same as I remember the Jr has a ROM BASIC, and extended BASIC on a cart as > Tony points out. I'm sure someone on the list has a Jr in use and can define > it. You, sir, are correct. And I'm still looking for a cartridge BASIC for mine. -- ----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ -- Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * ckaiser@stockholm.ptloma.edu -- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- From rigdonj at intellistar.net Sun Sep 30 20:17:29 2001 From: rigdonj at intellistar.net (Joe) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Weekend finds and help needed In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20010930162102.04a720f0@enigma> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20010930211729.007a7100@mailhost.intellistar.net> At 05:41 PM 9/30/01 -0400, you wrote: >This weekend was good for finding vintage HP items, but I'm >looking for additional documentation and parts: > >1. HP 9836C Nice! It's a 9836 with a color monitor. The color versions are sort of scarce. > >Picked up the CPU and monitor, but there were no manuals or media. >The machine boots and displays: > > 9836C 2250A02013 > Copyright 1982, > Hewlett-Packard Company > All Rights Reserved > > BOOTROM 3.0 > Keyboard > Color Graphics > 2 Flexible Discs > HP-IB > HP 98628- at 20 > 917344 Bytes > > SEARCHING FOR A SYSTEM (ENTER to Pause) > RESET To Power-Up > >At which point it hangs, presumably waiting for an operating system. Yeap. > >Any leads on documentation, operating systems, and additional options >for this computer would be most welcome. I have all kinds of stuff for them. I also know that Gail Roth as manuals for it that she's been trying to sale on E-bay. I think she only got one bid and only for one manual. Info: These are similar to the 9816 (9000 series 216) and 9826 (9000 series 226) and the 9837. The 9836 is also called a 9000 series 236. They all use 8 MHz 68000 CPUs except the U versions, they have a 12.5 MHz 68010. They'll all run HPL, Pascal and BASIC. The languages are available on ROM cards or disk based. I have all of them on disk but the ROM cards are rare. I have a couple of them with BASIC but I've never found the HPL or Pascal versions. > >2. HP 98241-67901 I/O Extender Hmm. that looks like the part number for an individual part. Look and she if you can find a model number for the whole thing. It should be simply a four or five digit number with no dash number. > >Appears to be for the 9825 series and has a test point for each of the >interface >lines. Oh, Ok then I know what it is. Does it plug into a interface slot on the back of a 9825, 9835 or 9845 and have right angle bend in it? If so it's an entender for working on interfaces. > >3. HP ROM Drawers > >These were found loose in a parts bin and they appear to be ROM drawers >for the HP 9825 series of desktop computers. I have three drawers, one with >six slots (all of 'em empty) and two drawers with four slots. Each of the >four-slot They're ROM drawers for a 9835. Joe PS you can't replace the surface of the 9872 plotter. It has wires embedded in it that carry the high voltage that's used to create the static charge that is used to hold the paper to the surface. From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 19:31:24 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: "ajp166" "Re: 8080 vs. 8080A" (Sep 30, 19:12) References: <01a301c14a05$ca5c8f00$caef9a8d@ajp166> Message-ID: <10110010131.ZM1035@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 19:12, ajp166 wrote: > no, it was 2mhz. > > using 8224 the usual crystal was 18.435 (2.0483333*9). > there was a -1. -2 and -3 version of the part but the fastest was 3mhz. > > I used to sell upD8080AF for NEC and I had to know my competition. Ah, then you'll know what the difference(s) was/were. While looking up 8080A and 8080 (except all my 1976 and 1979 Intel Data Books say is that they're functionally and electrically compatible) I discovered that NEC made two versions, both called 8080A, but one with some enhancements. I assume that this was rather like the idea they used in the V20. The note said that 8080A's from authorised second-sources were competely code compatible but the enhanced NEC version was not, and wouldn't always run certain Intel code. What was the difference, and what made it not run certain programs? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 19:31:21 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: "Richard Erlacher" "Re: 8080 vs. 8080A" (Sep 30, 15:43) References: <017601c149f0$c5ed81a0$caef9a8d@ajp166> <001901c149f8$e4f71680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Message-ID: <10110010131.ZM1031@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 15:43, Richard Erlacher wrote: > BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel app-notes > where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate the CPU clock > from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. Sure you're not thinking of a Z80? The standard speed for the original Z80 parts was 2.5MHz (4MHz for Z80A and 6MHz for Z80H). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 20:09:43 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: Derek Peschel "Re: Stupid question that's been annoying me" (Sep 30, 14:41) References: <20010929223013.D1895-100000@lepton.subatomix.com> <10109301438.ZM27954@unknown.zmail.host> <20010930144135.A26068@eskimo.eskimo.com> Message-ID: <10110010209.ZM1054@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 14:41, Derek Peschel wrote: > On Sun, Sep 30, 2001 at 01:38:13PM +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > confusing, try comparing the carry flags implemented in a Z80 and a 6502 > > (they do different things for subtractions!). > > And (on the 6502) if you want to get a given result using addition vs. > subraction, the carry flag must be set differently. i.e., if you have > > LDA #$FF LDA #$FF > ADC #$01 vs. SBC #$FF > > and you want A to end up with $00, then you must put before the LDA: > > CLC vs. SEC > > I might never have known this except that I wanted to check my post > before posting it. Yes, I found that confusing when I got my first 6502 machine (I had a Z80 before that). > > The other problem you have is with the overflow. It's not a problem with > > signed vs unsigned numbers as some people have implied, it's with the order > > Well, as one of those people I may as well ask you how much of my post is > corect and how much is junk. I don't think much was junk :-) You just didn't quite solve the puzzle. You suggested the flags might change if you change the system (from signed to unsigned, I think you meant), and they don't. In general, a processor doesn't know whether you're thinking of signed or unsigned numbers when you write the code. However, the meanings may change. Normally you don't pay much attention to the carry for signed arithmetic, it's the overflow that tells you useful things like whether the sign bit is correct or the answer is meaningful. You still use the carry for multi-byte arithmetic, of course, but it's automagically correct and you don't have to think about it (other than a preliminary SEC or CCF or whatever). On the other hand, you don't normally have any interest at all in the overflow for unsigned arithmetic, though it's still there; it just doesn't mean anything useful. You also suggested the flags might change between addition and subtraction, and in some processors, yes they do. Some processors complement the carry flag after a subtraction (ones that don't want a SEC before a subtraction, for example :-)) The example you chose was perhaps what confused you (1--2= 3 1+-2=-1); the problem being that -2 is its own 2's-complement in a 2-bit signed system (0 is the other one that causes trouble, this time with the carry). You'd get the same problem with -8 in a 4-bit system, or -128 in an 8-bit system. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fdebros at verizon.net Sun Sep 30 20:10:37 2001 From: fdebros at verizon.net (Fred deBros) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: HDS(?) ViewStation Monitor References: <006601c14931$6fb65510$2ed0d58d@fluffy> Message-ID: <00b101c14a15$e19fa7f0$6501a8c0@fred> oh man...i just threw away one of them it works on my b/w hds workstn. ck out what model hds xserver u have and see if u can add mem. that video never did colour for me and in b/w its vga i switched to a colour hds xstation and run it in sync-ion-green on a paopwerwite dec mon....nice 1024x846 screen with grayscale ckout hds website for more but the 17 in klutz you describe is nowhere to be found. boat anchor. fred ----- Original Message ----- From: "Blair J. Miller" To: Sent: Saturday, 29 September, 2001 17.55 Subject: HDS(?) ViewStation Monitor > Okay, so I've been sitting here trolling the newsgroup ever since my last > post. I've read almost every post that drops into my mail-box - a lot of > questions I can't answer. > > Anyway, I'd asked about an IBM PowerStation 530, and got a lot of responces, > and eventually got a cable (Thanks Peter, your check's going in the mail on > Monday) to make the 3 micro-BNC in DB housing output into a 3 BNC RGB > hookup. I went to the local place to look at crap, and found only one > monitor that has the three BNC hookups - it's an HDS ViewStation, with no > other real info on it... Will this work with the system? Anyone heard of > this thing before. Also, it's $50 - is that really a reasonable price or > should I try to talk him down? > > If it helps, the diagrams next to the RGB hookups on the back of the monitor > showed a vertical arrow in next to the R and a horizontal one next to the B, > and nothing next to the green. This would lead me to believe that it syncs > vertical on Red and horizontal on Blue, which obviously won't work, but I > just want to make sure. > > Thanks again for any and all help. If this monitor won't work, I'm gonna go > look again and see what sort of 5 BNC models I can find... I was told some > will work (Thanks Bennett). > > Blair > From pete at dunnington.u-net.com Sun Sep 30 19:31:27 2001 From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Stupid question that's been annoying me In-Reply-To: Cameron Kaiser "Re: Stupid question that's been annoying me" (Sep 30, 13:54) References: <200109302054.NAA07566@stockholm.ptloma.edu> Message-ID: <10110010131.ZM1039@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> On Sep 30, 13:54, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Maybe part of the confusion arises because many processors (including the > > 8080) complement the carry flag at the end of a subtraction, so that it can > > be used directly as a "borrow" flag in multibyte subtractions. Others > > (like the 6502) don't do that. > > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but on my C128, > > 1300 ad 01 04 lda $0401 > 1303 38 sec That's my point: you have to SEC first. You would clear it on most other processors. Also, after a subtraction, the 6502 sets the carry to 0 if a borrow was necessary, or to 1 if not; a 6800, 8080, or Z80 does the opposite. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 30 20:01:58 2001 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A In-Reply-To: <10110010131.ZM1031@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Oct 1, 1 00:31:21 am Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 213 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20011001/14d00941/attachment.ksh From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 20:15:58 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <01ce01c14a18$b1bfc490$caef9a8d@ajp166> Track the clock through the logic... there is a divide by 2 in there. Also the 9080 250ns part was late in the game and hard to find. If you want an 8080 that was really fast use a 8085-5 (5mhz) or the later 80c85-6(6mhz). the latter was a nice part as it was CMOS. I still have a potload of 8080s and 8085s and my design favorite for small systems is the 8085 over the Z80. Allison -----Original Message----- From: Richard Erlacher To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 8:23 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >Well, Allison, it appears you're right. The AMD 9080 was the one with the 250ns >clock (4 MHz) period, now that I've looked a couple of references. Thanks for >clearing that up. > >However, that doesn't explain what's going on in my iSBC8020-4's. I'll have to >figure that one out. > >Dick >----- Original Message ----- >From: "ajp166" >To: >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 5:12 PM >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > > >> no, it was 2mhz. >> >> using 8224 the usual crystal was 18.435 (2.0483333*9). >> there was a -1. -2 and -3 version of the part but the fastest was 3mhz. >> >> I used to sell upD8080AF for NEC and I had to know my competition. >> >> Allison >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Richard Erlacher >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:23 PM >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel >> app-notes >> >where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate the >> CPU clock >> >from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. >> > >> >Dick >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "ajp166" >> >To: >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 2:31 PM >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> > >> > >> >> Wrong! >> >> >> >> The I8080A is AS fast as the i8080. the i8080A-1 is faster but not >> twice >> >> as the fastest 8080[A] was only 3mhz and hte standard part was 2mhz. >> >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: John Galt >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >> Date: Sunday, September 30, 2001 3:57 PM >> >> Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >> >> >> >"The i8080A is essentially twice as fast as the >> >> > standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic >> since >> >> its >> >> >demands aren't as stringent". >> >> > >> >> >Ok, that's a good start. >> >> > >> >> >But, I don't think "low power" TTL (transistor transistor logic) had >> >> >anything to do with the complexity of the code being executed on the >> >> chip. >> >> >True? I had assumed >> >> >that the references to the 8080 only being compatible >> >> >with "low-power TTL" and the 8080A being compatible >> >> >with "standard TTL" had something to do with the support chips (Ram, >> >> clock, >> >> >etc) that could be used with the 8080 vs. the 8080A. >> >> > >> >> >Since I'm new to this mail list, let me explain why I would >> >> >show up here and ask such a question to begin with. >> >> > >> >> >I'm a chip collector. I am trying to document the differences >> between >> >> the >> >> >different early Intel microprocessors. Not worried about massive >> >> detail, >> >> >just the major differences (PMOS, vs. NMOS, vs. >> >> >HMOS, clock speed, transistor count, etc). >> >> > >> >> >The only microprocessor that I don't have a good handle >> >> >on is the 8080 and the difference between the 8080 and 8080A. >> >> > >> >> >I also know that the 8080 was introduced sometime >> >> >around April 1974. I have not been able to find an >> >> >introduction date for the 8080A. Was it introduced at >> >> >the same time? Does anyone know? >> >> > >> >> >I also need an Intel C8080 or C8080-8 for my >> >> >collection. If you have one, I want it. I have been looking >> >> >for one for months and have not been able to find one. >> >> >If you have either of these chips in good condition >> >> >(no desoldered parts wanted), I'm offering 400.00 >> >> >for the C8080-8 and 500.00 for a C8080. >> >> > >> >> >If you need a replacement for the C8080 or C8080-8 you sell me, I'll >> >> GIVE >> >> >you a D8080A free as part of the >> >> >deal. >> >> > >> >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >> >From: "Richard Erlacher" >> >> >To: >> >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 1:21 PM >> >> >Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> This makes no sense at all, though it may be because I'm >> >> misinterpreting >> >> >the way >> >> >> in which you've put it. >> >> >> >> >> >> I have Intel boards that come in versions with the i8080 and also, >> >> >> optionally,with the i8080A, and, aside from the clock frequency and >> >> memory >> >> >> access times, they're identical. The i8080A is essentially twice >> as >> >> fast >> >> >as the >> >> >> standard i8080 and COULD be used more easily with low-power logic >> >> since >> >> >its >> >> >> demands aren't as stringent. >> >> >> >> >> >> The i8080A will, AFAIK, replace the i8080 in all applications >> without >> >> ill >> >> >> effects. >> >> >> >> >> >> BTW, please turn off "rich-text" mode in your email editor when you >> >> >compose >> >> >> messages for this group, as some folks' mail readers can't >> interpret >> >> the >> >> >> rich-text/HTML format. >> >> >> >> >> >> Dick >> >> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> >> From: John Galt >> >> >> To: classiccmp@classiccmp.org >> >> >> Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:17 AM >> >> >> Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Can anyone here describe the technical differences between >> >> >> an Intel 8080 and Intel 8080A CPU? >> >> >> >> >> >> The ONLY ref. I have been able to find seems to indicate that there >> >> was a >> >> >bug in >> >> >> the 8080 and as a result it would only work with low power TTL? >> >> >> >> >> >> The problem was fixed in the 8080A and it would work with standard >> >> TTL? >> >> >> >> >> >> Does this make sense to anyone? >> >> >> >> >> >> Could anyone put this into laymans terms for me? >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> >> >> >> >> George Phillips - gmphillips@earthlink.net >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > > From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 19:39:38 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <671.674T1900T995665optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >>Our DECstation 3100 has been in a sad state recently. Both the monitor (that >>old monochrome thing without a stand which was used with the VS2000 amongst >If this was a mac I would say the cmos battery was going bad. Well, it actually had lost its NVRAM settings, but I think the problem is more hardware-oriented than that, since swapping the keyboard made it boot (before it managed to kill that kbd off as well). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Georgie beundrade stor?gt sin pappa som med v?ldsamma slag gick l?s p? det stora tr?det. Han badade i svett, och den muskul?sa kroppen bl?nkte i solskenet. Hon ?lskade honom. Lady Georgie, TMS 1983 From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 20:16:54 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <726.674T2700T1366685optimus@canit.se> Mike Ford skrev: >2 boxes of Maxell FD1 single sided, boxes are marked CPM/UG vol 1-50 and >1 box of Maxell FD1 single sided, box is marked PICO-NET. I know this sounds far-fetched, but I've got two 8" floppy drives named Piccolo made by Regnecentralen of Denmark. They're intended for a CP/M computer which I never got, apparently bearing the same name. I don't think they're "piccolo" at all, but I suppose that's just me. =/ I wonder if there could be any connection... Oh, these floppy drives are available for pickup in Stockholm. They're taking up space. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Idealismus ist die F?higkeit, die Menschen so zu sehen, wie sie sein k?nnten, wenn sie nicht so w?ren, wie sie sind. --- Curt Goetz From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 21:44:06 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Epson QX-10 In-Reply-To: <20010930.040038.-539317.2.kreation@juno.com> Message-ID: <662.674T300T2244029optimus@canit.se> kreation skrev: >Hi All; >For those poor mis informed folk -- the Epson QX-10 was not a laptop. >Many of the common features that are in use in keyboards today first >appeared on the OX-10 (Help key, Undo key and others). Keyboards today don't have either key. Not IBM keyboards, at least. Most decent keyboards do, but who'd like to use such a thing? =/ -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Amiga IFF (8SVX): This is the dominant [sound] format on the Commodore Amiga platform. It can specify an arbitray sampling rate but ony supports mono 8-bit sounds. It also supports a 2-to-1 lossy compression format which uses a unique Fibonacci-delta compression algorithm. From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 19:42:11 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: <003c01c1490c$f6564a50$6401a8c0@laboffice> Message-ID: <885.674T550T1024147optimus@canit.se> Zach Malone skrev: >Test 3 is "keyboard and mouse bad", I would suggest hooking up a terminal, >and plugging in a mouse terminator (if you dont have one, connect ports 2 >and 4 together with a paper clip), it should boot to console and not hang up >on the mouse and keyboard test. If you just hook up a terminal, it wont >work. I have no clue what the underlying problem is that is causing all >your problems. That help? OTOH, the main strength of the DECstation is that it's a graphical workstation. Running it through a terminal would mean losing the graphics, and running it then wouldn't make much sense (it might at home, but we've got enough machines without any proper uses at the UG anyway =). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Iggy tipsar: Vill du l?sa en PDF-fil, men saknar l?sare, skicka den till pdf2txt@adobe.com, du f?r den tillbaka som ren ASCII till din epostadress. From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 19:51:18 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: RS6000 7012-320H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <857.674T900T1114385optimus@canit.se> Paul Thompson skrev: >There's probably an ethernet chip on the main board which just needs the >AUI/BNC logic on the riser card added to work. You should be able to get >a Microchannel enet card for cheap watching on ebay if you can't find the >riser. OTOH, wouldn't there be some compatiblity issues WRT AIX if you just take any MCA ethernet card? There'd have to be driver support. And there might be compatibility issues WRT PS/2 cards, or so I've read on comp.sys.ibm.ps2. There should be people with suitable cards in the abovementioned group. >The IBM sales manual might help, plug in the part numbers for your >machines: >http://www2.ibmlink.ibm.com/cgi-bin/master?xh=jN7O$Vn32jOgss0USenGnN9332&requ >est=usa.salesmanual&parms=&xhi=usa%2emain&xfr=N Ooh, that's a useful link. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Computer hackers do it all night long. From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 20:39:50 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: ZX Spectrum internals (Was: ZX81 kits) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1125.674T2500T1596033optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >As I've said a couple of times before, I can make a video circuit with >somewhat better capabilities than the ZX81's built-in video (40*25 text, >block grapghics, colour) in 2 or 3 chips. Add another chip or so to >encode the outputs to PAL (although I'd probably prefer to feed the RGB >signals into a TV's SCART socket these days...) What chips would you use? I assume that the Speccy uses one chip for its entire video generation, but where would you split the functions? ---- (update a few minutes later, aren't off-line readers a wonderful thing?) I went and opened up my own seemingly-dead Spectrum... Wait, that's no ZX81. I've been thinking about SZ Spectrums all the time. Oh well, I might just ask anyway, since I've opened it up... What is that chip next to the Z80? It's labelled PCF1306P. And why is there a switch glued on top of the Z80 with wires going to the character ROM? Since it's a localised character ROM piggybacked on top of the one soldered to the motherboard, could it be for switching charsets? -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Allt ?r under kontroll, och caps lock ?r bredvid. From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 22:09:23 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Squealing CRTs Message-ID: <440.674T1150T2495015optimus@canit.se> Heller to everyone and Tony. ;-) What do you do about a squealing CRT? I've got this nice terminal which is working, but it emits a high-pitched whine which is not only unpleasant and annoying, but quite scary, too. It feels as thoughit's going to blow in your face any minute. The terminal in question is a green-screen TECO VA120. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Ky?suke: Jag heter Kurre, Kurre Carlsson! Jag: Det heter du inte alls! From optimus at canit.se Sun Sep 30 21:00:57 2001 From: optimus at canit.se (Iggy Drougge) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1323.674T2850T1806151optimus@canit.se> Tony Duell skrev: >> Tony, I think you are correct as I've never seen a clone mb with BASIC in >> ROM, but I *have* seen clone boards -- including early Pentium boards -- >> which would cough up "no rom basic" if they didn't find a bootable device. >> Oddly enough the text of this message is always displayed in 40-column >Just in case somebody is using a CGA card connected to a TV :-) Time and again, I've read (in old literature, of course) that TVs wouldn't support 80-column modes. I say that's bollocks. The Amiga has a perfectly readable 80-column mode on TVs. Old (1.x) versions of the OS could be set to run in 60 columns instead, but that feature was later on removed (Mind you, by then, you could set any font as the system font). I know I've got great eyesight, and I'm thankful it survived all those years staring at an interlaced fuzzy RF picture on a TV, and I'm certain that it would never have been certified by any authority as ergonomic, but 80 columns on a TV, even through RF, and certainly through composite, YC or RGB, is quite doable. At least if you've got decent circuitry generating the picture (the output of old RF modulators is seldom nice, often hideous or laughable, and I know that it's not just due to corrosion). -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Age is a high price to pay for maturity. From thompson at mail.athenet.net Sun Sep 30 21:36:16 2001 From: thompson at mail.athenet.net (Paul Thompson) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Unsing other Tapedrive instead of TK50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You can probably make a boot image on a SCSI hard drive for the Vaxstation from your intel box. I did this to make a system disk for a DECstation for which I had no tape drive. Just disklabel the disk and get the right files from the netbsd site and lay them on the drive with dd and you should be all set. You can install the rest of the distribution using FTP if you have a network. On Mon, 1 Oct 2001, lothar felten wrote: > hello, > i?ve got a VaxStation M38 with harddisk, but is has no drives. the > NetBSD-Install-HowTo says how to make boot-tapes (TK50). i could make a boot > tape with my (ix86) NetBSD computer, but i have no SCSI-TK50 tapedrive. > -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 30 21:42:22 2001 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (ajp166) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A Message-ID: <01e301c14a22$d617ec00$caef9a8d@ajp166> From: Pete Turnbull >> I used to sell upD8080AF for NEC and I had to know my competition. > >Ah, then you'll know what the difference(s) was/were. While looking up >8080A and 8080 (except all my 1976 and 1979 Intel Data Books say is that >they're functionally and electrically compatible) I discovered that NEC >made two versions, both called 8080A, but one with some enhancements. I >assume that this was rather like the idea they used in the V20. The note >said that 8080A's from authorised second-sources were competely code >compatible but the enhanced NEC version was not, and wouldn't always run >certain Intel code. What was the difference, and what made it not run >certain programs? Ah no, not a V20 thing. The first version of the NEC 8080A was not fully compatable at the hardware level. It was the interrupt/hold thing. It origninated with the fact that NEC did not use intel masks but reverse engineered from working intel parts. The D8080AF was fully compatable with intel 8080A, and I mean fully. FYI: only one part was 8080AF the other was 8080A. The program error was mostly invisible but impacted those programs that used both interrupts and DMA. The specifics are centered about the hold state and the DAD instruction, Intel treated it like a write and NEC 8080A treated it as read. generally speaking the halt/hold/interrupt interactions and timing made designing complex systems much more difficult than would first appear. It was a reason for the rapid adoption of 8085 and z80 even though they were more expensive early on. Allison From cmcmanis at mcmanis.com Sun Sep 30 22:12:16 2001 From: cmcmanis at mcmanis.com (Chuck McManis) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Unsing other Tapedrive instead of TK50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010930201055.022d2b20@209.185.79.193> At 01:34 AM 10/1/01 +0200, you wrote: >hello, >i?ve got a VaxStation M38 with harddisk, but is has no drives. the >NetBSD-Install-HowTo says how to make boot-tapes (TK50). That HowTo is out of date, there is no way to install the current NetBSD from Tape. The best method is to netboot the VAX from a system that can run a MOP daemon (VMS, another NetBSD system, a Linux system, etc) >many questions... >maybe someone can help Ask on port-vax@netbsd.org and lots of people can/will help. --Chuck From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 30 22:09:56 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: IBM ROM BASIC or lack thereof Message-ID: <20011001031140.PFCR5130.imf03bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> Tony Duell wrote: > My guess is that clones used the same method. They tried to boot from the > hard disk and floppy disk and then call INT 18h. Since there is no ROM > basic, INT 18h points to a little bit of code that displays the No ROM > BASIC message (as far as I can see this message is not in the IBM ROMs) > and then halts the CPU. This was the point to my original question: why would clone makers go to the trouble of displaying the message and then halting the system, instead of just *halting the system*? (Unless they were using stolen code.) Just doesn't quite make sense . . . Glen 0/0 From mikeford at socal.rr.com Sun Sep 30 22:10:30 2001 From: mikeford at socal.rr.com (Mike Ford) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: TRW finds, 8" floppies, 68k PC In-Reply-To: <726.674T2700T1366685optimus@canit.se> References: Message-ID: >>2 boxes of Maxell FD1 single sided, boxes are marked CPM/UG vol 1-50 and >>1 box of Maxell FD1 single sided, box is marked PICO-NET. > >I know this sounds far-fetched, but I've got two 8" floppy drives named >Piccolo made by Regnecentralen of Denmark. They're intended for a CP/M >computer which I never got, apparently bearing the same name. >I don't think they're "piccolo" at all, but I suppose that's just me. =/ >I wonder if there could be any connection... Maybe they are for a Nambian system? Are they green? From acme_ent at bellsouth.net Sun Sep 30 22:59:00 2001 From: acme_ent at bellsouth.net (Glen Goodwin) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Osborne/Kaypro disk help needed Message-ID: <20011001040045.PAGL3269.imf11bis.bellsouth.net@thegoodw> I snagged a very clean Osborne at the Junk Fest today but no disks. I thought I could use 22disk on my Wintel box but then found out the Oz is single density and this Wintel box won't write single-density. Okay, so I can use MFDISK10 on my Kaypro 10 to generate a bootable Oz, disk right? Well, MFDISK10 is missing in action. Hmm. So I found and downloaded MFDISK10 from the 'net, put it on a Kaypro disk, ran the program, and got as far as "use the arrow keys to move around," but the arrow keys do not move the cursor, so I am unable to select a disk type from the menu. Hmm. Broken arrow keys? So, I fired up WordStar and the arrow keys work fine in WS. So, I need help in either: 1 -- finding out why the arrow keys don't work in MFDISK10 or 2 -- getting some other program to run on my Kaypro which will create Oz disks or 3 -- obtaining some Osborne disks (last choice) TIA, Glen 0/0 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 30 23:20:13 2001 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: Bad bad DECstation In-Reply-To: Re: Bad bad DECstation (Iggy Drougge) References: <003c01c1490c$f6564a50$6401a8c0@laboffice> <885.674T550T1024147optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <15287.61181.573015.459198@phaduka.neurotica.com> On October 1, Iggy Drougge wrote: > OTOH, the main strength of the DECstation is that it's a graphical > workstation. Running it through a terminal would mean losing the graphics, > and running it then wouldn't make much sense (it might at home, but we've got > enough machines without any proper uses at the UG anyway =). Uhh, what? No way. *A* strength of a DECstation is that it's a graphical workstation. But it's certainly quite useful as a headless machine as well. I'm not running any anymore, but as recently as a year ago I had a few headless DECstations doing a great deal of real work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Laurel, MD From edick at idcomm.com Sun Sep 30 23:55:49 2001 From: edick at idcomm.com (Richard Erlacher) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:09:19 2005 Subject: 8080 vs. 8080A References: <017601c149f0$c5ed81a0$caef9a8d@ajp166> <001901c149f8$e4f71680$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> <10110010131.ZM1031@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> Message-ID: <002901c14a35$576f0420$9cc762d8@idcomm.com> Nope ... but I'm not sure whose version I'm remembering. Back when I used 8080 types I used whatever came in the boards I bought, since I would never have willingly designed with a part that required three supply voltages. With EPROMs you had little choice, but the CPU was too much. Most of the applications I've looked at didn't use the Intel clock generator and other support parts because they cost too much. I don't have any multibus cards for the Z80, and I've NEVER willingly used a Z80 at less than 4 MHz. It's just too slow, which also explains my preference for MOT and MOS-Technology parts. The Z80H is spec'd ( I have the sheet right here in my hand) for 8 MHz. The 6 MHz part is the Z80B, just to keep things straight. I'm sure the part in question is an 8080-type, but I don't have the board in front of me at the moment, so I don't know for certain whose part it is. The AMD version is definitely faster than Intel's, however. I looked that one up earlier. I'm not at all sure about National and TI versions, as I'm in the middle of putting up some shelves, and materials are lying on top of where the old databooks are. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 6:31 PM Subject: Re: 8080 vs. 8080A > On Sep 30, 15:43, Richard Erlacher wrote: > > BTW, the 8080 was a 2.5 MHz part, wasn't it? I've got a couple Intel > app-notes > > where they generate a baud-rate clock from 24.576 MHz and generate the > CPU clock > > from that, at 2.4576 MHz for the CPU. That's on an i8080-2. > > Sure you're not thinking of a Z80? The standard speed for the original Z80 > parts was 2.5MHz (4MHz for Z80A and 6MHz for Z80H). > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > > From curt at atari-history.com Sat Sep 8 06:52:14 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:36 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port References: <237.712T1600T2235677optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <002801c1385c$b4b4f7b0$cab1ff0a@cvendel> Try Best Electronics: www.best-electronics-ca.com Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Classic computing" Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:43 PM Subject: Atari ST cartridge port Does anyone know where one might get a hold of 2 mm spaced (not 2,54 mm) card- edge connectors? The Atari ST cartridge port is using that spacing, which doesn't seem very popular. -- En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. Min andra dator ?r en VAX. From curt at atari-history.com Sat Sep 8 06:55:03 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:38 2005 Subject: 8 inch floppy drives References: <355.712T1600T6005125optimus@canit.se> Message-ID: <003601c1385d$19e81a40$cab1ff0a@cvendel> You can get PAL to work on NTSC, but I don't think you can do it in reverse since the PAL chips don't have the bandwidth for the extra resolution. You could get an NTSC console and if you play around a lot with the vertical hold on the TV's and such you can stablize it and use it on a PAL tv and use all NTSC carts. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: "Iggy Drougge" To: "Curt Vendel" Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 5:00 AM Subject: Re: 8 inch floppy drives > Curt Vendel skrev: > > >Atari Classics > >www.atariclassics.com > >(1.2 million brand new Atari 2600 & 7800 video game cartridges, $2 each) > > Hmm, that's a nice price. I suppose those are USA carts. Are there any > incompatibilities visavis PAL systems? > > -- > En ligne avec Thor 2.6a. > > Keine Grenze verlockt mehr zum Schmuggeln als die Altersgrenze. > --- Robert Musil > > From curt at atari-history.com Sat Sep 8 19:25:43 2001 From: curt at atari-history.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Sun Feb 27 19:10:43 2005 Subject: Atari ST cartridge port References: <20011108235852.MECL15745.femail28.sdc1.sfba.home.com@BENCHBOX> Message-ID: <003701c138c5$f7583370$5eb1ff0a@cvendel> There were some other products like eprom burners, clock cart (for earlier ST no equipped with internal clocks), robot kit, digitizer, controlling a proprietary brand of color copiers around 90-92' and of course... for ROM based programs, one of the most popular was the VT100 cart which allowed the ST to access VAX's and was actually cheaper then VT100's at the time. Curt ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2001 7:57 PM Subject: Re: Atari ST cartridge port > The cart port on the st series wasn't much used at all. The only things I > can think of that used it were the MagicSac type Macintosh upgrade and > some hacks that allow you to run a Parallel port ethernet interface (the > cart port serves to provide a couple of lines the Printer port is > lacking). > > Regards, > > Jeff > > In , on 11/08/01 > at 05:07 AM, Jeff Hellige said: > > >>Does anyone know where one might get a hold of 2 mm spaced (not 2,54 mm) card- > >>edge connectors? The Atari ST cartridge port is using that spacing, which > >>doesn't seem very popular. > > > There don't seem to be that many cartridges for it either. The only one > >I have is a VT100 emulation cart. > > > Jeff > > > -- > ----------------------------------------------------------- > Jeffrey S. Worley > Asheville, NC USA > 828-6984887 > UberTechnoid@Home.com > ----------------------------------------------------------- >